| IVOD_ID |
17417 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17417 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026050414 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-06T14:30:21+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-06T16:48:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:17:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0e2c43aff6c47feb9e4b813c43887974892d343e5acb26ceb1b3f23535ba1fe805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-06T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、繼續研商「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」等案。（民進黨黨團提議）二、研商「醫療法第十二條、第一百零二條及第一百零二條之一條文修正草案」等案。（台灣民眾黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:30:21 - 16:48:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好開會時間已到現在國民黨團代表我們工作同仁通知一下國民黨團代表還沒有黨團幹部還沒有到通知一下問一下情況怎麼樣謝謝已經先到的民進黨的蔡總召黨團幹部也謝謝台灣民眾黨團的陳總召各位台灣民眾黨團非常感謝也謝謝列席的官員大家請坐一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1891.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1892.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
副總召還沒到是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1898.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1921.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
副總長還沒有到,我想先謝謝今天列席的三個黨團主要幹部大部分都已經到我想徵詢一下黨團幹部還有列席的內閣閣員、各位部會首長因為我們今天協商題目有兩題第一題是軍購特別條例第二題是醫療法修正草案各黨團幹部是否能夠同意我們讓第二題的醫療法我們先來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1923.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1939.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這樣會不會比較好一點好不好因為第二題我怕時間可能會比較長一點如果大家都同意的話我們今天就就醫療法修正法條例第一題來討論好嗎好那我們謝謝國安部的顧部長請先休息一下我們請衛福部好謝謝謝謝啊謝謝謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1955.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1974.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們請衛福部時部長還有衛福部所有列席官員請先列席好嗎?謝謝台灣民眾黨團準備發言我們等一下衛福部一到我們就要開始進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2276.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2294.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 謝謝謝謝我們衛福部時部長已到謝謝今天我們跟各位黨團幹部報告一下我們列席的衛生福利部的時部長還有護理健康司的蔡司長醫事司的劉副司長法規會的陳參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2300.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2305.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
法務部的汪參士好 謝謝好 謝謝麻煩今天請 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2307.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2336.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
提案的台灣民眾黨團請針對提案作出說明國民黨團有蘇清泉委員提案請國民黨團準備請好主席還有各位與會的委員還有我們那個政府的同仁大家好那台灣民眾黨為了解決血汗護理的現象所以我們提出醫療法第12條的一個修正案那相對應的法則在102條之一也有提出一個相對應的法則那事實上我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2337.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2355.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
護理界其實血汗護理的現象屢屢的被媒體所披露護理人員出現了一個大逃亡的現象其原因不外乎三個主要的理由一個就是低薪然後高護聘比還有勞動條件差 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2356.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2380.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以我們針對三班戶病比這件事我們就用醫療法第12條來幫護理人員爭取三班戶病比的標準因為三班戶病比的標準必須要入法入法之後醫院才能夠依照這個標準來配置合理的人力我們護理人員也才能夠依據合理的工作負擔提供給病患 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2380.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2386.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
良好的照護品質還有也才能夠維護病患的安全所以我們的醫療法第12條我們增訂了第4項就是應該要在現行的醫療機構設置標準訂定三班戶病比的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2396.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2414.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
然後這個標準呢是由誰來定我們這邊有做一個設計就是中央主管機關要成立一個諮詢委員會然後來訂定三半戶並比的標準然後之後因為這個標準訂出來應該要與時俱進有可能五年後十年後就不適用這一組標準那 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2415.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2439.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們也責成中央諮詢委員會去定期的檢討調整這樣的一個標準這是我們醫療法第十二條第四項的規定那當然這個諮詢委員會我們在第五項有增訂就是護理人員的這個團體代表人數不能夠少於全體委員會的二分之一那這個是我們關於醫療法第十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2440.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2451.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第四項跟第五項徵定的內容那當然我們也有提出一個相對應的法則那相對應的法則就是如果中央主管如果今天醫療機構違反第12條醫療法第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2456.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2481.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第三項關於三班戶病比人數的標準的話那我們就有制定一個相對應比較重的罰則那罰則就是如果是地區醫院就是50到200萬那如果是區域醫院就是100到500萬如果是醫學中心就是200到1000萬那當然罰錢有時候醫院也不太會遵守所以如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2482.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2500.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
沒有改善的話被罰的錢沒有改善的話那我們就會按次連續罰那如果再沒有改善就會給予一個月以上一年以下的一個停業處分好以上說明謝謝謝謝邱委員提案的說明接下來國民黨團蘇金權委員有提案請國民黨團表達意見然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2503.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2527.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
盧委員請表達意見 盧縣議員也請表達意見民進黨請準備好 針對我們護理人員的職業率目前的僅百分之六十高達十二萬名的護理人員因為環境惡劣流失 三班護平坪遲遲沒有入法所以盧縣議員在去年的 今年是一月十六號有進負二讀是關於我們護財人員輪班比例配置的基準希望能夠入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2529.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2551.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
醫療這邊上面寫的是醫療機構互產相關團體代表人數進步的高於邀集會商人數的三分之一羅廷偉的版本是5月8號進來是民定醫院急性一般病傳三方互併比的規範應該由中央主管機關訂定這樣以上補充謝謝盧學英委員的補充那也講出了蘇清泉委員的版本羅廷偉委員的版本那接下來請民進黨團發言完畢請衛福部時事部長準備發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2554.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2558.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我想民進黨團這邊絕對是非常的重視這個議題為什麼因為就是這個護病筆主要就是因為現在剛講的第一線的護理師相關的人手不夠長久來大家認為說他們的勞動權益沒有受到重視所以絕對是要一起解決血汗的護理的一個問題如果能夠讓護病筆合理的話我想護理師的權益被照顧到 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2584.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2605.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那其實就是病人的權益被照顧到那全國2300萬人都一生中都有機會會成為醫院裡面的病人我想大家絕對是對病人的安全還有醫療的品質非常的重視喔所以如何能夠在合情合理的情況那讓護理的負荷被解決我想這個部分絕對是我們民進黨團的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2608.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2636.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那當然就是說這個部分是要修醫療法或者是修醫療機構設置標準的話這個部分我們是尊重專業的意見那我們知道就是說原本是放在醫療機構設置標準當中那這部分我覺得今天大家能夠好好的討論就是因為修法的話其實時間就會比較久遠那如果放在醫療機構設置標準會不會比較有彈性那這部分我覺得我們大家可以專業討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2638.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2644.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那是不是如果不用動法讓他很難處理的話我們當然覺得這是一個選項所以待會也想聽聽看就是衛福部的意見那最後就是還有兩個部分要大家要一起考慮就是懲罰如何有效可是不會讓大家變成到時候關病床 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2657.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2682.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
反而病人的权益受伤这是我们担心的那另外一个就是因为护理师人不够我们都知道那这个修法之后的冲击如何减低他的冲击能够让他修法后是真正的不会影响到病人权益我想在我们调整的时候也希望一并考虑的那这些都希望待会儿卫福部能够跟大家说明以上那个专业协会你要等事务长发言之前还是之后 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2684.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2705.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
沒有 你要之前我就先發言先講一下好了不好意思 施部長請稍等因為莊委員他想要表達一下意見莊委員請我想 院長還有各位協商代表這一個醫療法這一個條文的一個修正三班互併比的部分我看三黨即使大家都對這個制度來做一個調整大家都有一定的一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2706.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2712.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但是剛剛台灣民眾黨所提到的說你如果做不夠了,地區醫院我給你罰多少醫學中心給你罰多少,區醫院給你罰多少或者甚至於會把你醫院把你給停業掉我認為這種事情都不會發生醫院比我們還聰明啦,他很聰明啦你知道嗎,他要讓你關掉,我給你關床我哪有要讓你罰那麼多錢,第一個錢也罰不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2735.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2753.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個整個醫療法的一個修訂我看最主要也不是只有什麼解決什麼血汗護理倒也不是反而是我們一般在談說全天就是全日那個醫護比到現在的三班的一個醫護比你全日的醫護比裡面你白天 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2754.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2771.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
還有大夜班小夜班大夜班你把它平均去除的話數字確實會美化掉啊那你如果是三班來看的話你白天班的你就假設我這個醫院我白天放十個護理師我到小夜班甚至到大夜班搞不好只剩下兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2772.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2785.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個數字就會突顯出來所以我反而會覺得這個制度應該是說最主要是整個醫療服務量能跟病人的一個安全受到更好的一個照顧的一個問題啦那如果說我們今天修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2787.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2804.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
錢放下去人就進來就解決掉了那三黨大家都有共識就沒有問題但重點就沒有這麼簡單涉及到醫院的問題啊所以是不是啊是不是就是說你原來的設置標準的部分那東西是醫療法的執法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2805.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2819.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們大家都怕衝擊啦各黨都會受到啊不然這一題你們的黨主席以前就一直在講了嘛為什麼到最後會好像大家就態度稍微就緩下來的原因就說怕業者做不到那反而我會覺得說未悟你這邊的評估裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2821.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2840.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你人欠多少那你多久可以去把它給補齊你總是要有人嘛你總是要多少錢嘛這個才是重點啊不然我開醫院我不管是第七醫院啦醫學中心啦我們那個我們醫療法我們甚至於把它訂了那個法則再把它做提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2841.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2862.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
假的啊我們立法院自己在這邊弄爽的而已啊醫院都比我們還聰明啊到最後呢你說你上班護病比你到晚上你沒有護理師沒有護理師我那個床把你關掉啊那你人全部都擠到急診室去啊反而更沒有辦法解決問題那各黨我們都是好意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2862.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2885.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好意到最後我們弄出來的版本是沒有辦法去解決問題啊所以我想到想聽說博頓就是說你們多久的時間緩衝期欠多少一年可以補多少啊不要讓人覺得說我們只要說都說多少啦啊 入法或者說你設置標準它本身也是一個執法啊你光要弄一個法則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2885.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2905.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那我認為那個是變成我們大家在為特定的你說護理師團體也好啊或者說其他的團體也好你說我們只是為了滿足他們可是我們沒有達到我們要做對病人更好的一個照顧啊如果錢砸下去就有用人差這麼多就有辦法處理事情那很簡單的事情啊但是問題就這麼簡單嗎想聽聽看衛務部你們的規劃是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2911.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2920.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝中央行政委員發言 大概就濃縮在四大塊了貨幣比 諮詢委員會 罰款金額 以及衛福部的評估麻煩請市部長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2922.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2938.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 院長還有各位委員那麼就這個護理人力我們都了解要維護一定的醫療品質跟護理的工作負荷那麼護病比確有它的需要所以我們在108年呢就在醫療機構設置標準裡頭第12條之一增訂那麼有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2943.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2972.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
全日護病比的要求所以在108年確實已經把護病比入法那麼設定在醫療機構設置標準12條之一那麼指的是全日護病比那當然經過這個一段時間之後那麼為了讓這個人力的這個供給跟他的負荷能夠達到呢更均衡不要有這個這個剛剛說到的美化數字的情形所以才有這個三班 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2973.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2992.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
互併比的這個倡議那麼我們也同意這樣的方向所以在113年開始就在談這個三班互併比的標準應該是什麼那麼同時開始推動所以我們也推出了這個護理人力的12項改革計畫那麼也推動這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2993.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3013.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
健保的支付制度的調整增加護理費等等那麼這主要就是因為我們左眼看到在部分的國家的州像美國的部分州或者是澳洲的部分的州有實施三方互併比的法定的這個規定的時候呢如果人力不足就會造成關床 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3014.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3036.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那麼關床的結果就造成住院等候的延長那麼或者是急診的後床所以這樣反而也造成另外一個的副作用影響到民眾的就醫權益所以我們才會很謹慎的在推進那麼透過各種的措施那麼來補充能力那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3037.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3061.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
從今年的3月最新的資料來看那麼我們能夠比去年同期3月大概增加4900多名的護理人力進入到這個職場這個是指競爭家中間大概差不多六成左右就是3000名左右是進入到醫院因為我們談的三班護病比就是在醫院護理人力的需求是有很多場域的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3062.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3078.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那麼在醫院的大概是六成那麼以這樣來推估跟我們現在如果推估三班戶比比之後的人力缺口那麼人力缺口大概在一萬兩千五百名到兩萬名之間就是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3079.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3099.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
病床全開那大概是需要2萬那麼如果考慮到占床率大概需要12500名所以換言之以現在的人力的供給趨勢這個是才回到這個疫情前疫情中是更低有時候一年只增加1000多名 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3100.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3115.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那個是沒有辦法支撐那如果能夠維持這樣的趨勢那預估需要至少要兩年到三年左右我們把這個人力補足那這個就可以落實所以我們是第一個呢那麼建議呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3116.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3132.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
把三班互併比的標準定在醫療機構設置標準那麼就把我們之前所定的全日互併比修改成為三班互併比來定這個標準這個是第一個我們的建議那麼第二個需要有一個緩衝的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3133.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3155.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那麼讓這個法律實施之前那麼我們來盡量的把人力的補足而在這個補充的過程當中當然也會有其他的相關配套那麼包含導入一些智慧化自動化的協助這個護理人員降低這個負荷那麼我們也推動這個住院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3156.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3177.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個照服員的協助我們叫住院整合照護計畫來這個協助呢降低這個住院病人的護理的生活照顧的負荷這些我們都會同步推進那麼至於這個委員會的設置因為我們在醫療機構設置標準的設定過程當中本來就會邀集相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3178.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3205.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個利益關係人團體都要一起討論的這個本來就有這個機制所以需不需要在醫療法裡面再另訂一個專門為了這個護病比去訂這個委員會呢我們是覺得不見得需要因為本來在設置標準他要做法規的命令的預告公告之前本來就要召開的會議自然就會有相關的這個利害關係人的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3206.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3223.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那麼罰則的部分我們也認為維持現行的醫療法罰則也不宜加重因為沒有實質的意義那麼過高的罰則只是讓醫院直接以關床因應那麼並沒有實質的意義那麼反而造成這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3224.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3243.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
太大的衝擊所以我們是希望就是維持現行讓行政機關從這個醫療機構設置標準來修訂著手那我們也已經開始啟動這個修法的程序了以上的補充說明謝謝施部長很完整的說明非常感謝那個邱委員你要不要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3244.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3259.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好 OK 謝謝主席那我想呢就是這邊需要做一個說明跟澄清就是說我們台灣民眾黨推出的版本醫療法第12條第4項其實它是一個什麼樣的法條我們沒有把三班互併比的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3260.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3273.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
目前有九個數字好目前衛福部在113年3月1號有公告九個數字根據不同的醫院的層級根據白板小夜大夜班有九個數字我們並沒有把三班戶並比的具體數字用醫療法來規範好那為什麼我們沒有把這九個數字用醫療法來規範因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3279.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3304.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
可能三年後五年後隨著這個環境的改變有可能這一組數字也會調整所以我們不敢把它定在醫療法裡頭定在醫療法裡頭三年後五年後要處理就會很複雜然後而且也不容易更動所以我們的處理方式是怎樣呢我們的處理方式就是說三班戶併比的九個數字當然是要規範在部長所說的醫療機構設置標準當中當然是往那邊去 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3307.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3325.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
把九個數字放進去那如果把九個數字放進去就可以了那為什麼我們還有醫療法第十二條第四項的增訂那最主要是因為我們過去數年來五六年來我們一直護理界在倡議說請把上班戶病病入法那衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3326.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3342.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
不知道是沒有聽到護理人員的吶喊還是說聽到了但是就是消極不作為沒有把這九個數字放進去醫療機構設置標準我們的吶喊已經非常久了基層護理人員已經等不及了所以我們台灣民眾黨才出了一個版本就是說醫療法 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3344.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3372.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
本身要規定什麼 中央主管機關應該把三班互併比的標準放到醫療機構設置標準我們這一條修法是為了push衛福部去做他該做的事強制 甚至講難聽一點就是要逼迫跟強制衛福部去把那九個數字放進去醫療機構設置標準所以我們的 我們雖然是在母法的層次我們沒有把那九個數字放進去這是第一件事要跟大家說明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3372.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3398.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那第二件事呢就是說剛那個有委員提到嘛就是說這個護病這個數字呢就是這個當然都有助於國人那現在重點來了就是說如果民進黨這邊也同意的話因為你有提到緩衝期或什麼時候實施的問題那我們當然因為最主要這個是賴總統的政見嘛他說他兩年內要 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3399.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3415.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
要讓他上路那現在離他的兩年內大概只剩下幾天所以如果我們可以在最近三讀通過然後總統公佈應該是在兩個禮拜以內就可以實行了所以我們其實我這邊是回應民進黨就是說其實我們是在幫賴總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3418.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3430.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
實現他的政見因為他給護理人員這個承諾其實大家等很久已經等不及了那接下來呢就是說因為醫界僱主一直用一個說法就是說你們三班護兵比如果入法我們會什麼關床啊那事實上不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3433.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3460.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
你護理人員覺得醫院非常血汗他不想進去護理人員會流失越來越多這種情況才會關床那如果你把三班護病筆的規定訂出來大家覺得說回到臨床合理的工作量已經出現了也許就會讓護理人員逐漸的回流我覺得眼光要放長而且要從這個角度看不要一直覺得三班護病筆入法就會關床反而三班護病筆沒有入法才會關床那以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3462.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3485.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
謝謝邱委員的補充說明盧縣議委員您要不要再補充說明一下請傅坤祺總召請這個事情我想國會應該嚴肅面對因為不管哪一個家庭都有老大人終究大家人生一生都會走進需要醫療協助幫忙的時刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3489.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3518.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
但是我們台灣的健保是非常好的但是實施到現在有很多的該檢討的時候沒有去檢討但我們國家GDP成長到現在第一季啊GDP成長11%還是13%在這種情況之下還會有血汗工廠血汗勞務這是不可思議的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3519.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3547.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們從SARS在看到COVID-19醫療人員不只要冒著自己的生命危險還要去搶救在生命邊緣的這些患者結果他們日夜在忙碌一直沒有辦法得到最好的該調整的該應有的待遇所以兩年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3548.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3573.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
國民黨團 民眾黨團提出了健保點子要提升到0.95當時的邱部長私底下是很支持的那我們實施以後到現在每到了護士節 我們醫護節 我們過去多少護士在陳情陳如衛護講的啊健保點子要0.95號稱一年要多700億 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3577.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3601.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
當時行政院提出很多反對意見就是這樣那結果兩年一千四百億下去了又到醫護手上有多少加護病房還是原來是一天八百塊到現在還是八百塊那錢到哪裡去了我們在這裡講話壓力很大所有的醫院都來啦擁有者都來啦但是我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3604.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3628.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
在保護全民健康的是這些醫療跟護理人員他們沒有得到應有的待遇但是現在行政院不能用這麼荒唐的說法導果為因因為有三班護病品入法所以我們會關床這邏輯不對嘛你們有他們應有的待遇就不會跑到長照去了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3629.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3658.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
台灣的醫療 原本30年前是亞洲第一的現在人才還是最好的但是都跑到香港 跑到新加坡 跑到澳洲 跑到日本除去人家 代表是我們兩倍 三倍 還有四倍的五倍的也有那我們需要這麼多台灣的優秀的醫療護理人才留在台灣但我們整個衛福部行政院 我們好好思考過對得起他們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3661.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3687.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
對得起他們嗎兩年前也在這裡行政院的說法是什麼一年要花六七百億要增加健保抵達0.95那到現在醫療跟護理醫生跟護理他們拿到了什麼我們不是在這裡立法去付了去讓這些醫院的援護者更加的rich |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3689.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3714.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
啊 基層人更加的苦難現在物價漲了多少 他們還可以生活嗎為什麼會去長照 因為長照的待遇好啊所以今天我們不只是落實過去民進黨對醫護人民 醫護的承諾我們是幫你們落實醫護的承諾賴清德總統競選的首要證券 兩年要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3716.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3735.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們現在入法 還有其他的意見 我們很好奇經濟成長這麼好 IT產業這麼發達AI這樣子蓬勃 第一季GDP13%我們要超出多少稅收 要趕快來做這方面的調整石部長 大家對你有高度的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
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應該把這個事情趕快處理好不要再講其他的理由好不好好你還帶著笑臉說你看在野黨這麼支持衛福部對不對我當時對不對當時雖然執政黨講完齁那個邱部長臉上有藍色但我們講完他都很高興你知道嗎 |
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所以說這樣我們也講完你也帶個笑臉看我們一下好不好全國醫護都在看你喔好不好謝謝好謝謝福昆吉總召的發言那個請蔡總召發言完畢之後事務長要請您二樓回話了好嗎好請蔡總召謝謝 |
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我想這個我也回應一下副總召這個第一個今天在場的三黨其實都是支持從全日的互併比改成三班互併比所以其實沒有人反對三班互併比只是現在第一個差異是什麼衛福部希望他本來在 |
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這個醫院的設置醫療機構的設置標準當中他就直接在那邊處理就行但因為民眾黨希望他在醫療法12條裡面加一個源頭好那其實對民進黨而言我們徹底支持 |
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要把它變成三班互併比那九個數字大家九個的數字大家都知道民進黨是全力支持那現在如果要討論入法民進黨不會說我們一定反對入法如果你一定要再加一個源頭讓我們的護理師同仁大家更有覺得好像安心一點其實並不是說不可以啦只是說需不需要這樣做那這裡面涉及到立法院對行政院的信心啊 |
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我講白就是這樣子嘛你會覺得 邱委員可能覺得有一關頭我們比較有信心對我們的護理師同仁比較有保障因為護理人員等會死去對對 沒問題沒問題所以我的意思說我並不反對因為重點我們在要改的你設這個源頭目的還是要去改那個那個醫療機構的設置標準嘛所以最終還是要改醫療機構設置標準醫療機構設置標準一定要把它改成三班互併比而且要去落實 |
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這個才是我們要的目的才解決所謂學和護理的關鍵其實是這個所以這個其實大家有共識沒有人反對民進黨也很支持也很謝謝大家的支持好 那現在問題來了那就算要放到醫療法裡面現在我們看到的版本是國民黨國民黨的版本跟民眾黨的版本兩個存在著很大的差異根據國民黨的版本 |
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要檢討這個互併筆他加了一大堆的條件那民眾黨的版本幾乎是最直接了當的沒有加任何的條件所以我也不清楚到底剛剛副總召講了這麼支持那到底是不是他要採取的是國民黨輸親權版本的這個前面有一大堆前提就是要做互併筆還要加一大堆前提 |
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還是要民眾黨的沒有前提最直接的方式這個才是今天我們在朝野協商要解決問題的核心在這裡嘛所以正在民進黨的想法上如果大家要進入了目標都是一致的要解決讓我們的護理師有更多的保障減輕他們的工作負擔然後呢這個不要讓他們變成血汗護理師這個沒有人有反對三黨都是支持的 |
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那放在什麼地方是第一個差異那如果真的要到醫療法來處理那醫療法又出現了更大的差異就是國民黨跟民眾黨版本的差異當然民進黨我們也會 我們也有自己的版本那只是說要不要進入那個實質大家把那個版本的差異弄出來因為國民黨的版本是最寬鬆的嘛就是簡單講就是對醫院最好的啦 |
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對醫院最好的那所以這個差異要不要大家點出來討論我覺得不用再互相指責因為三黨都是支持的嘛好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡總長那個現在時務長聽得非常清楚三黨團都是支持 |
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那這是在方法上有一點差異然後國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團所提的版本內容也不太一樣但支持護士這個護理師這個精神是不變的您下面的發言就非常重要你發言完畢之後我會休息十分鐘大家協商達成共識 |
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我們就直接通過 達不成共識我們就要依規定處理了請部長第二輪發言好嗎好 謝謝院長再給我一次發言的機會那麼我想參班戶病筆錄法然後修載醫療機構設置標準是大家的共識 |
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那我只是在條文上要不要去要求設三半戶並比在設置標準裡面的這一段文字我剛剛提到這個是不需要在這裡去下為什麼呢因為在我們的整個立法的體力上法治體力上醫療機構設置標準一共有七個副表涉及到四大類的不同的醫院型態裡面從人力設置各種還有防火什麼都一堆 |
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那單獨去列了一個說這個要列入設置標準難道其他就不用嗎所以這個是在立法例上的問題就是我們在設置標準裡面設的是很多的項目是很細的東西那三幫互併筆只是其中的一條而已那麼所以我才是說我們會去做三幫互併筆錄到設置標準因為這個也是總統政見我們一定會去落實 |
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那不需要在醫療法裡面再有這樣的文字的這個落款因為這個跟我們的體制體力上是有所不同的這個是一個說明再請各位委員跟院長來裁示 |
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石部長所講的請大家來參考一下因為我們今天下面還有很重要的案件要審所以我們休息十分鐘之後就要做宣告了那請各位黨團在這十分鐘之內休息時間跟石部長再溝通一下我們希望能夠達成一個共識好嗎好 我們先休息 |
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顯然那...謝謝各位,謝謝石部長、各位列席的官員我們現在這個...相關的條文各黨團還是沒有辦法達成共識我們一規定,則其來處理那我們就進行討論第二案請國防部顧部長及相關幕僚人員來就定位謝謝石部長,謝謝各位列席的官員,謝謝 |
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林總召 陳慶隆總召請來一下好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝 |
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謝謝各黨黨幹部,謝謝我們今天列席的有國防部的顧部長及所有的國防部所有的相關的官員,謝謝財政部陳署長,謝謝副主席長蔡副主席長,歡迎,謝謝經濟部、法務部、審計部、數位部、衛福部國家科學技術委員會、行政院公共工程委員會所有相關列席的官員,歡迎大家,謝謝 |
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我們現在繼續併案協商軍購特別條例之前經過4月15號、23號、27號已經經過了三場的協商今天是我們第四場黨團協商除了行政院提案、民眾黨團提案、國民黨團提案之外劉建國委員等16位提案也經院會決定進行二讀要併入協商 |
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現在我們還有保留四個條文要進入主條討論上次4月27號協商徐巧欣委員提出優先討論的經費上限條文請問各黨團代表今天是否一樣我們先討論經費上限還是要依照條次先討論採購項目好賴思寶委員請發言謝謝主席韓院長以及各位總召喚以及各位委員各位先進 大家好 |
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我很少參加這個黨團協商因為我們不是黨的幹部但是因為這一次這個案子是這個國安委員會以及財政委員會是共同主審所以我代表財政委員會來發表意見第一個我個人非常支持我們的黨主席提到的三千八加N三千八加N但是這個N要具象化N是多少 |
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5260.783 |
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N是多少這個N不能夠0啊這個N0的話那就不是N了N最少是一塊錢嘛一直可以到一兆兩兆三兆都可以一個前提總括提到的時候我們的共識要有發家書所以呢我具體的就提到就提到這個N啊我就把它丟出來了N就是42004200怎麼來因為大家都知道 |
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這個現在第一波的美國的發價書AOA它是110億美金那一直在傳言也看到美國的媒體有報導會有第二波的發價書大概140億美金那當然140億美金換算起來是遠大於4200億可是因為我們原來框的3800 |
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是針對一百一十億所以他會有一點阿索比這邊弄過來所以加起來就拔千里就比較具體比較具體所以我具體的講就是N就是十千號N就是十千號理由它的基礎就是因為這個美國的媒體而且我們的部分的官員也都有這樣的訊息出來那就是極可能有 |
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美國的這個第二波的發價數141美金假如最後沒有了那是美國的問題美國如果沒有給我們這個所以我們第六條的修正就很簡單了第六條就要修正說第二波的這個我們的軍購只要是美國有發價數我們就給他國防部又認為有需要就給他加上去但是上限總共加第一波不能夠超過8000億 |
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就這樣所以具體的就是這樣因此如果這樣修的話第八條就要滲掉因為第八條是說我有新的發價書又要重新提個案子各位搞一個法案搞這個軍國特別條例就搞半年了 |
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這個曠日廢食而且對大家來講也是一個很大的負擔我們還有很多民生法案要處理剛剛那個法案講的EBB都非常重要我覺得立法院要處理的案子太多了同樣的這個事情我覺得必須供一律這裡面沒有空白搜尋的問題講得非常的清楚因為第一波的發家族一進來了我們編了就3,8003,800會有一點剩 |
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5413.866 |
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5435.438 |
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但是第二波最多就讓你騙到8000億這是我個人的觀點提出來請各位指教最後一點我要特別表達對韓院長的支持韓院長非常辛苦在這裡進行協商還有人跟他講這個講那個今天看到我們的主席因為他一定的高度主席 |
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來表示歉意啊我覺得這都是代表國民黨一方面我們尋求兩岸的和平往來和平交流 二方面我們要維持一定的我們一定的防衛倫理那麼最後一點我希望民進黨團是不是可以針對八千億來討論其他的部分其他的部分 |
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5458.425 |
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5479.62 |
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國防部認為有必要就編入年度預算馬上就編年度預算啦就新的年度116年就開始編起年度就馬上要送進來了以我們現在來講一年的國防預算9000多億佔的比重這麼高快到4%很快要到5%這等於是一個交戰國家才有這麼高的比例啦所以我覺得 |
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5481.062 |
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5494.417 |
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國安部說一毛錢都不能刪那我覺得就切一塊大家各讓一步我們能不能聚焦在討論是不是八千億可以加一點可以錢一點這是我個人的意見請各位指教謝謝賴思寶委員的發言謝謝賴思寶委員的關心謝謝啊莊瑞雄委員請發言台灣民眾黨團請準備 |
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5501.294 |
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5527.887 |
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謝謝院長還有各位協商代表我們寶哥真的是很寶那個我現在聽到你說你這個這個N是這個四千四千二嘛本來你是說N不可以零啦一兆兩兆都沒關係不用啦不用一兆兩兆啦也不要四千二啦因為你如果N等於八千七大家就很哇你知道嗎加起來都要八年都要一兆二五兆其實你剛剛在講那個N |
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5529.428 |
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5534.532 |
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但是這個4200這個其實就是在講說你現在的是美國正式的發假書LOA的其他的部分就是說叫做以後再說啦但是也不要忘記啦我們這次在做這個整個軍國條例裡面我們第一個去想像的就是說你威脅從什麼地方來 |
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5552.128 |
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不管是行政院院版國安部所提出來 或者中國國民黨的版本 或者台灣民眾黨的版本台灣民眾黨的版本我現在還沒看到 你們那是佈置那個四千嘛但是你們的秘書長出來講 我看到你們講說是一個八千可是問題我們第一個要看的是說 你那個威脅從什麼地方來大家現在看的是說 飛彈的部分那是威脅 有了 我們也有飛彈 |
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5574.207 |
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那戰機的部分我們要去防禦這也是威脅也有那無人機的部分火箭的部分那本來就是一個防護網那你從高空到低空你從偵測到攔截判斷到反制這個其實全國民眾都知道不是只有立法委員知道可是提出來版本裡面我就覺得比較非常可惜的地方就是說 |
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5598.012 |
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5621.993 |
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哪怕是中國國民黨剛所提到的N是4200那你這個4200裡面我要請問的就是說你說等發駕輸來了再說就是以後來了再說那你現在國防部跟美方去盤整然後要建置的這一套整個國防的整個戰力的一個提升的一個系統裡面你那個AI指揮系統在什麼地方 |
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5623.215 |
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5630.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那你整個情收鏈的整合在什麼地方甚至於說你說飛彈從哪裡來我們看得見我們要去反制它飛機哪裡來看得見要去反制它彈道飛彈來要去反制它那你少了一樣啊那無人機來我要去反制無人機的部分我又沒看到你們啊那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5642.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5668.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
跟發架書又無關這個部分是不會在發架書裡面的喔所以是不是可以再考慮一下商售的部分甚至於軍備局或者中科院我們去委託製造的部分這一塊你們真的認為都不需要嗎買了很多武器買的武器要去把整個飛彈打出去要去把整個炮彈打出去好啦打完了怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5668.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5678.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
你到底要打多久那這一些在我們國防自主在我們在地國家來做製造這一塊真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5678.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5681.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
在野黨的朋友認為不需要嗎所以這個N等於4200是不是可以再考慮一下我知道你們想像的就是說4200就是一定要發架書來那才算數可是我們再一次的嚴正的提出來你那個一定要發架書要LL那個就是等於4200叫做以後再說可是整個國防戰力的一個提升是整體的防護網 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5704.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5716.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
沒有辦法說把整個發家書把它當成一個前提的一個條件這個請 不管是國民黨的朋友 或者台灣民眾的朋友可以再好好再考慮一下啦 啊不然電子網化假啊一星期來 假四星 啊不然我們假開一天假開一天之後 變成假假的之後 多一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5723.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5727.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
一條兩千 大家都不用借啊民眾黨 過一星期後 過一倍嘛四千變八千嘛寶哥今天來了 喔 他的三千賣到四千以內 兩次來又賣到五千我等啦 我等你 國安部最痛啦但問題是 也不是這樣看預算啦條例我們會覺得說 你整個防護的部分認為它是有 不是 除非你認為說 國安部提這個是不必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5750.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5777.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
不是啦 不是啦 就是說你認為說國安部提這一些你認為哪一些不必要讓我們對外來做說明嘛 這樣才對嘛 好不好好 謝謝莊委員台灣民眾黨的陳青龍總召請發言徐曉新委員請準備 王委員請好 主席好 還有各位大家午安我想台灣民眾黨這個始終我們的這個邏輯都沒有變過那我想這個在看到新聞版我們這個台灣民眾黨很快就提出了台灣民眾黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5778.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5795.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那當初那個四千億的版本基本上就是以當時當時很確定的軍購的項目然後再加上了一個八百八十一億的一個彈性的一個buffer在那裡所以基本上這個台灣民眾黨這個我們的這個policy非常清楚就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5797.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5812.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個非常支持我們這個台灣在強化我們的戰力的部分尤其是這個感謝美國會提供我們一些軍購的部分所以截至目前為止我們的這個Police都沒有變就是這個軍購的部分我們其實是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5812.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5839.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那這為什麼金額會有一些調整其實就是因為這個時序的往前走其實有些做了一些調整那我們這邊也做了非常多的功課除了是聽了很多專報跟我們這邊也私下做了一些這個功課也就是說在第一批的裡面其實我們現在看到在國防部他們做了這個標案以後有一些絕標的金額其實跟當初的金額都會有一點點的落差當然我們有去詢問他們還有一些其他的一些考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5839.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5860.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
不過基本上我認為這個金額很多是變動的截至目前為止在這個時間點上我們希望以這個時間點的基本來做處理所以舉例來說我們原來編的四千億裡面第一波裡面他們現在這個絕標金額大概落在三千億左右所以我們會把這個納入在最後我們版本最後決定的金額裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5865.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5882.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我今天也聽到民進黨委員在做一些質詢大家都覺得很急希望趕快能夠把這個案子定下來台灣民眾黨一直都是這個心態我們很早就提出了這個版本所以我們基本上建議我們是不是先把軍購的部分先把它確定下來因為現在是在討論條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5885.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5909.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
也許條例我們可以做部分的放寬就是第一波第二波比較確定的等到在編列預算的時候我們再來看看是不是有確定的LOA或者是有確定的一些金額我們在編列預算案的時候我們再來討論所以這個大概就是現在台灣民眾黨具體的一個大概的policy也就是說我們對於軍購的部分我們大概都會同意以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5912.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5926.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
王委員您講了半天阿拉伯數字您有沒有特別要我們這個大概就是第一批加第二批第一批原來是四千現在大概是大概只剩下三千左右第二批的部分我們大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5927.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5938.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
出估啦 現在看到的金額大概大概是五千左右所以就會有剛剛這個委員說的大概好像加起來接近八千左右左右的一個金額陳議員總統你們貴黨團並沒有針對第六條發言是不是要一併關於第六條改為附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5944.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5954.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
謝謝院長那台灣民眾黨的一個黨團的版本裡面我們在上次寫一章我們有討論到我們版本的第六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5974.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5993.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因應高齡化及少子女化對本地預算的財政衝擊那這一條我也了解我們上次也已經也表達出我們台灣民眾黨對特別條例的一個立場那我們的重點是在因為的軍購因為的國防 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5996.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
6003.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
的一個支出的增加不要去衝擊到我們的社福我們的財政的一個負擔那考量我們要讓條例能夠很精準的來對應我們的競購那這個部分本黨團有做成一個共識我們可以來作為以互帶決議的方式來辦理這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
6025.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
6027.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
來作為一個這樣的安排以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
6040.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
6064.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
謝謝院長那我想在這裡要跟這個民進黨的朋友說明一下就是我想國民黨跟這個民眾黨在這邊整體來說我們先不講細節在大原則跟大方向上我看到很明確是有共識的那我先把幾個共識做一個彙整第一個如果今天大家還是要不先從輕重緩急就是我們做事總是有個輕重緩急嘛你不要今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
6065.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
6081.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
沒有1.25兆你就會說哎呀是不是無人機不要了哎呀是不是什麼不要了我們還是有一般預算可以編入的嘛所以我上次也強調了那民眾黨剛才也表達立場就是我們今天是不是能夠針對軍售FMS也就是美國對美國會有發架書的這一個類別來進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
6086.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
6091.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
因為我想如果說要把商共維治權不一起討論進去的話那今天協商我們已經協商到第四次了那又會沒有結論我不覺得這個對國家是有什麼幫助的所以如果說可以的話我的具體建議跟民進黨朋友這邊也在談 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
6101.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
6124.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
就是說是不是我們就先討論於軍購的部分FMS的部分應該要怎麼處理因為從我們這裡的立場來說非常清楚的第一個為什麼我們會強調要有發架書的原因就在於我們討論的是政府對政府的軍購所以它一定會有發架書那當然剛剛民眾黨的朋友也提到了就是第一波他們加第二波他們剛剛也講到這個8000億整體的這個數字剛剛寶哥也有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
6128.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
6150.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那對數字的部分我覺得大家都還可以來討論但是可以看到國民黨跟民眾黨這邊都是在針對軍購的部分那先把商售跟委制你不管說你要放在後面或是我們還有疑慮還在後續在討論都好可是今天如果我們今天的協商進到第4次了仍然要把所有1.2再全部討論進去那幾乎等於是沒有進度沒有辦法討論所以在這邊我想要詢問一下說是不是能夠在這個條例上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
6158.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
6177.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們就從軍購的角度那當然所以才會有所謂的發價書等等的嘛那假設說國民黨這邊我們堅持我們就是只討論軍購商售跟委制之後再說民眾黨也做這樣子的堅持但民進黨就偏偏得要全部弄在一起那我現在真的不知道是誰不想要讓這個條例通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
6179.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
6186.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我真的不知道是誰想要讓這個協商不斷的破局然後沒有進度所以我希望今天大家是有進度的是為了國家好那輕重緩急現在國防部也講到了海馬是什麼時候要這個要簽約然後要付款等等的那既然軍售有急迫性那我們就先從軍售需要多少來從這個方面去做一個討論這樣子的話才能夠極大化大家的共識否則最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
6208.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
6211.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
先聽國防部部長不好意思要麻煩您再一次跟大家說明一下請發言好嗎我們蔡總召隨後會接著發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
6238.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
6266.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我還是予請大家能夠考慮這個我們委制有五個案跟三個或七個案的重要性那委制五個案其中有一個就是強攻的忠誠反彈道飛彈這個如果不能夠擺進來這個特別預算的話我想對於我們這個重整攔截的有效性的一個謊話會形成一個破口那我們還是請能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
6267.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
6290.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
考量我們這個瑞恩二型的海碩戰術型無人機還有冰海艱深型的無人機以及冰海攻擊等四類攻擊的無人機以及小型的自殺無人艇因為這些部分都是我們相關的這些艱深或者是攻擊所必要的那這些我已經也一再說明了尤其無人機我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6291.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6308.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
透過這一個有一定的規模來進行一個提高我們國防自主量能的一個防衛韌性具有重大的一個必要性那另外AI輔助決策模組跟部隊決志套件就是TFK跟台灣戰術網路這個確實是構成我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6311.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6340.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
能夠做成作戰決策來建立共同圖像加速擊殺鏈的一個重要的部分那還有垂直起降的一個無人機還有可吸式的無人機的反制系統那也包括了軍備產能的這些擴建可以讓我們有具備120天的戰備存量這個部分都很具有重要性還是預請大家能夠考慮一下這個部分不要從這個特別預算把它拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6341.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6362.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我想這個要請大家能夠考量其他軍購的部分還有關於太平共和國採購的這些部分的金額我事實上並不知道八千億夠不夠我認為事實上是有點問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6375.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6377.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
謝謝院長,謝謝大家這個雖然我跟徐曉新委員的意見不一樣但是我還是先謝謝他,也謝謝民眾黨王岸祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6396.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6424.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那至少已經從3800億到8000億了啦這個我表示謝謝雖然我的意見還是跟你們不一樣他的困難我當然知道對在野黨而言提到的輕重緩急我當然懂但是大家聽過國防部的報告那麼多次機密的專報也兩次了我相信你聽過的人這如同你問我 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6426.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6449.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我只能給你一隻手你們現在告訴我要砍左手還砍右手因為我們看到的國防部所提出來的我想今天將軍也在場譬如說剛剛顧部長念了一大堆這些都是防止敵人在登陸之前我們必須用一些無人載具去做一些摧毀那這個不重要嗎其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6450.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6475.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我懂喬欣委員的意思啦但我都覺得你要我說輕重緩急我其實真的很難跟你講哪一個叫輕 哪一個叫重所以為什麼民進黨會一直堅持1.25兆不是我們不懂得大家必須在政治協商的過程裡面有一些退讓或者妥協而是因為我們清楚的知道這是保衛台灣 這是讓台海和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6475.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6501.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
的一些基本的存在啦簡單講就是這樣子所以呢我只能拜託這是呼籲啦 也是拜託啦就是說可不可能待會院長休息的時候大家再來談一談可不可能讓他更接近一點 譬如說可不可以不要砍一隻手 砍一隻手指頭就好啦意思是這樣 我已經拜託到這個樣子了 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6503.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6526.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
就等一下我們可以大家討論看看我不知道可不可能這次呼籲也是拜託嘛就是可不可能大家再商量一下說由於哪一些是聽過機密專報因為我也沒辦法在這裡機密專報的事情我也沒辦法在這裡提出所以可不可以 對 不可以講嘛 院長也知道所以可不可以待會我們再 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6527.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6547.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
在休息協商的時候再拜託一下再想辦法把國防部認為很重要很難你要我一定要什麼叫輕重反擊我覺得都很重啦可不可能大家再討論一下所以我這是在協商之前我想我必須要再做這樣的一個拜託啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6549.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6555.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
謝謝顧部長語重 謝謝蔡總召欣賞合起來是語重欣賞好 我們休息十分鐘大家來討論一下好嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
7033.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
7034.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好 謝謝院長我想買最好的武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
7063.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
7083.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
最好的設備最新的武器給我們的軍人使用強化我們的國防這個真的是不變的那剛剛中衛省委員說不要砍他的手不要砍左手右手不要砍一根指頭我們的國防絕對不能砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
7086.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
7111.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
絕對不能砍但是我在上個禮拜我在協商的會場已經有表明我們在第一階段的一個軍購裡面國安部對我們的M-19A7自走炮的一個軍人的需求出於十五不一樣一開始今年三月 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
7114.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
7117.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
跟我們當團講這樣的金額要1375億四月份變成只要810億那結果在四月底的電子採購網的絕報金額只剩下738億我再重複一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
7135.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
7160.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
不到一個月的時間所提出的金額從一千三百七十五億可以變成最後的七百三十八億當然上個禮拜我們政務司長有說明說什麼自衛美國國衛啊是什麼金額啊發酵所是什麼金額好這已經說明過但是這種金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
7162.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
7188.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我相信不只我們立法委員我相信全國國人同胞也會覺得同樣一個競購的預算數字一個月之內可以相差600億那1.25兆作為我們行政院國安部包括我們民進黨黨團一直在主張的1.25兆的天花板絕對不能動 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
7190.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
7208.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
讓我請教,光一個項目就差600億,你的1.25兆怎麼不能動第二個,我們在我們所謂的軍購跟商購跟委制的部分,我們國防部也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
7209.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
7230.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
民進黨黨團也好好像一直忽略了包括我們台灣民眾黨包括了國民黨一直在主張的我們支持國安預算那我們在商購、維基的部分可以來在我們的年度公立預算來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
7230.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
7252.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
但是在這個過程當中 國防部好像把公務預算每年編列他能夠編列的預算通通忽略掉了 好像他的心裡就只有特別預算那特別條例我們是八年 八年的預算我們今天把我們委制的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
7254.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
7272.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
還有商購的部分舉例來講我們的第五項AI輔助於C5ISR的一個人工智慧的決策系統國安部要的金額九十億分八年哪邊啊一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
7274.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
7301.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
十多億 好 分兩年來編碼一年四十五億怎麼在一般的公務預算沒辦法編列呢一定要用特別預算我們都知道重要 部長也講過我們都知道每一個環境統統都是比啊我們都接受啊 我們OK啊但是為什麼把一般的公務預算統統忘掉另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
7301.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
7325.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
在上過的部分要買20萬8千架的無人機無人機我們也知道現在的戰場從烏克蘭的戰爭從美國對伊朗的戰爭無人機非常重要我們也認同但是我們現在要買的一次買20萬架以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
7326.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
7348.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
用商購的方式來處理那我想大家也了解無人機啊就像我們的3C電子產品一樣它的解帶更新非常快那我也認同不管在商購不管在這個技術的一個移轉無人機就是我們的重要的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
7350.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
7369.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
產業做我們做任頭但是用三鉤一次就買20萬架請教如果就過去講的2027啊中共要攻台啊這個買20萬架今天就要決定了不然2027來不及啊但是如果美國又講 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
7374.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
7398.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個2027不是這個大陸中共會攻台一次買20萬架如果三年後五年後八年後這20萬架的一個無人機會不會變成一個過時的淘汰的無人機等等我在這邊舉例就是我們今天我要向國防部向民進黨團表明 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
7399.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
7406.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
1.25兆真的不能動嗎?真的不能動嗎?我剛剛講的一個月干預項目金額差距600億真的不能調整不能動嗎?天花板就是不能動嗎?好 謝謝陳總召發言你發言 顧部長請我想先請民眾黨看一下你們自己擬的第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
7426.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
7439.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
你們要不要看一下你們第四條,你們第四條M169A7的自走炮,列的是多少錢?那是配合第一次你們的金額啊不是不是,您的1267億,您的金額您知道是哪裡來的嗎?諮會國會的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
7445.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
7459.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
對 那麼海馬市的1276億 也是你們編的就直接把金額寫在上面 也是智慧國會的金額這是你們寫的 不是我們寫的好 你聽我講 你要聽我講我剛剛都有和你講完 你要聽我講一下那麼我現在在說明 那麼花架書來了 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
7468.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
7471.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
他按照發價書的金額這兩個金額都產生了劇烈的變動一個是810億一個海馬是漲到了1600億 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
7482.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
7503.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以我們第一個我要說明我們沒有不是我們在胡編這是第一件事情第二件事情一兆兩千五百億這是一個天花板的一個數字但是我們的第四條是我們的能力建構那因此每一個項目在智慧國會會有一個金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
7504.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
7529.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
花價輸來會有一個金額甚至以後正式他美方跟這些公司異業之後還會有一個金額所以這些金額本身他確實不是一個確確的金額這就是第一點要說明你們當時把金額寫在這裡面這個立法的這個技術絕對是不可行的你們當時將智慧國會的金額寫在這裡面就是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
7530.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
7547.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這是第一點第二點所有的這個金額的計算它都是一個估算的金額一兆兩千五百億這個金額是經過估算那麼接下來接下來你們一直在講的可能未來的軍購案的數字是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
7548.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
7554.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
因為現在還沒有完成智慧國會程序智慧國會程序之後還會有發價書進來發價書進來之後還會最後有預約的金額所以我們在講的就是說我們大概就是從軍購 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
7563.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7587.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
偽製 商購甚至還有台美共同採購研發及採購這個部分我們大致上估算出一兆兩千五百這個金額出來那我們說明的就是說這是一個整體的規劃案那你現在個別拿一個個別的金額那我會問說那你一千兩百六十七億當時智慧國會金額那現在是降了但是海馬仕的金額漲了呢那怎麼不提呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7593.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7616.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你海馬是1276億現在漲到1600億我的意思就是說大家在講這件事情的時候不要去隨意的去汙衊我們去做什麼胡編的工作這是第一點第二點一兆2500億是一個概估的金額是一個預算的上限每一個案子都還要等到預算書送進來還要就每個預算在給你們審嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7621.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7627.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
副總召請準備不讓他們兩個繼續辯論嗎我是這樣覺得啦都已經到這個階段了其實這些辯論我不知道已經聽過多少遍我相信國防外交委員會的同仁們應該聽更多遍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7649.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7665.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那副部長剛剛我覺得他急著要跟青龍委員解釋啦你就可以反對,但不要說他後悔變啦你的邏輯是說為什麼你的錢可以變來變去嘛怎麼有人這樣變的,一屆差幾百億你就是在挑戰他這個錢,你這個一定會有未來可能差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7674.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7679.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
對對對,我意思是說為什麼查五百就解說給你聽嘛,就是已經說很多次了,我不是要跟你辯論啦我發言我又參與辯論就沒意思啦,我只是要跟你解釋說,我們不要用這種態度你又要重新又要來挑戰他這個胡亂編預算啊等等,我只是,因為他上一次也解釋過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7697.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7711.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
在美國美方的軍售裡面從國會通過的到發駕書到最後結算其實都是不一樣的他已經先跟你講而且上一次我坐在這裡我也聽了所以我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7712.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7728.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
最後大家在講都已經協商到這裡了大家又要回過頭來又要來做這個辯論我是覺得這樣很沒有意思啦所以我只是提醒說你再說這個就沒有意思了因為這都已經在這裡解釋過也在委員會都解釋過了所以1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7730.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7746.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
未來它是上限啦這個是條例啦那1.25兆如果大家同意你1.25兆你第四條的項目你應該全進去嘛可是大家等一下也一定不是等一下就是實際在討論的時候看起來今天也沒辦法達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7748.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7769.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個國防部這個版本裡面把所有的項目都列進去那1.25兆等於算的時候再來做調整這是不可能你們大概就只能剛剛的協商就只能同意有發架書的部分所以我回過頭來我還是講說我還是覺得很可惜啦這樣的一個大家應該其實朝向有共識的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7770.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7792.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
1.25兆為什麼我想國防部多次解釋為什麼保護台灣需要這些基本的配備我們要發展國防產業這裡面其中還有一項是我們中南部包括青龍委員你的所在我們中南部很多精密加工他們可以投入國防工業國防產業的部分所以如果這個部分在最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7794.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7809.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們在調例的時候直接把1.25兆砍成8千億我是覺得這個喪失了台灣發展國防工業的可能性啦所以這個我是覺得很可惜那最後呢我還是要講啦我們在民進黨立場上我們剛剛我講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7812.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7833.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
輕重緩急我可以知道這句話的意思但是在我認知上我覺得1.25兆都是重要的那為什麼不能在一般預算裡面我想國防部也解釋過在年度預算裡面可以編的他都編了那這樣的金額也不可能放在這個年度預算裡面所以呢我們會用特別預算來處理就是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7835.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7862.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
保衛台灣的安全其實應該是不分藍綠白大家一起來做的而保衛台灣安全的過程當中我們可以國防自主 國防韌性我們可以發展國防工業我覺得台灣其實都是一個很好的事情那最重要的我要講時間很緊迫包括美國這個相關的這些我們都在媒體上都看到了都有時間上的壓力所以呢我們另外一個期待除了希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7863.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7891.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
朝野各政黨大家來支持這個1.25兆之外我們更希望能夠在速度上面要求而且院長馬上就要出國去做國會的訪問所以我們會比較希望說大家是不是儘速能夠有一個結論然後快速的來通過這樣的一個條例因為條例過後還有預算要審查所以這個是一個拜託也是一個我們的主張謝謝大家好謝謝蔡總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7892.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7920.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
接下來我們請國民黨副總裁請發言我想今天各黨在這裡來做最後一次的軍購案的朝野協商我想不管是哪一個政黨對於充實中華民國的國防來守衛台灣大家的立場是一致的只要有堅實的台灣的國防我們都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7922.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7943.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
但是今天為什麼會有這麼多意見的複雜性包括顧部長也忘記了他今天是部長他不是顧大律師在這裡對立委提出這麼強烈的說明但我要在這裡就是因為今天的爭執正凸顯了一個最主要的問題國安部 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7947.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7974.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所持的立場為什麼跟在野黨會有不一樣在野黨不斷強調就是要有發架書今天有發架書會有今天的增值有金額的差異嗎就不會有這些問題嘛那所以所以到底是不是空白授權到底是不是臆測性的來授權我們回到今天的本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7976.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
8003.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
第一個原則國民黨對於對美軍購對美的軍事採購這是一個負責任性的採購包括後續的延遲維修零件的更換等等這是得到美國政府的保證美國總統的簽署的這個部分我們是支持的而且我們是強烈的支持國民黨保護台灣過去80年 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
8005.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
8034.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所有對外守護台灣的戰爭真槍實彈上戰場都是國民黨打的而且都打贏了都是國民黨在守護著台灣那今天我們談到坐在這裡談到的是什麼特別預算各位我再特別強調一次我們今天為什麼坐在這裡討論是因為是特別預算特別預算是有它的這麼強大的急迫性 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
8036.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
8061.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以如果誠如賴總統所說2027年台海會發生戰爭2027年就是明年但是就因為如此我們大家坐在這裡協商要用緊急的特別預算但是蠻有意思的包括執政黨跟國防部都認為這個緊急預算的採購要8年才能到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
8062.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
8086.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那8年的到位就不是因應2027年啦這麼迫切台海馬上要有戰爭那台海馬上都有戰爭我們同意我們同意用特別預算我想也不止1.25兆啦也不止1.25兆雖然我還沒有得到授權講這句話但是如果執政黨堅持1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
8089.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
8105.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那請問是不是我們執行的年限就是一年這特別預算就是明年所有武器都要到位如果是這樣的話 響應賴總統 明年台海有迫切的危機那如果是這樣的話 我們大家可以坐下來好好談 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
8107.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
8126.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那其他的部分我想年度預算尤其今年將近一兆九千四百九十五億將近一兆的這個年度預算國安部的年度預算其實在這個部分可以好好的請執政黨好好的來對這一兆元要怎麼使用請審慎的來請繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
8133.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
8154.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
要怎麼樣來購買國防預算 還有最後最後也謝謝大家在過程當中 因為這四次的協商其實有很多意見的表達真理是越辯越明 也越講越清楚但是我還是有一個疑問還是有一個疑問 因為到今天為止 執政黨跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
8156.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
8169.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
民進黨還是跟國防部還是沒有明確的告訴所有的國人當每一次國防預算都用這麼迫切的程序要求立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
8170.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
8189.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
各政黨來授權給國防部來做緊急採購那為什麼採購了以後我們現在還有7000億台幣的預算說購買的國防武器到現在還沒有到位蠻奇怪的 國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
8191.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
8202.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
跟執政黨 應該跟全國國人這個部分還是要解惑事宜 還是要讓大家了解我想國民黨最後再強調對美軍構 我們全力的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
8204.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
8228.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好 謝謝副總召我今天已經第四次朝野協商非常感謝顧部長還有各相關部會列席的官員那也要特別感謝非黨團幹部一直踴躍來參加的包括民進黨的陳冠廷委員國民黨的劉許廷委員黃建斌委員 羅志強委員徐巧欣委員 陳永康委員 馬文君委員非常感謝大家都踴躍的出席那經過四次協商大家曉得風波不斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
8230.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
8257.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我想黨團幹部也都非常的盡心盡力國安部的官員也都非常努力很抱歉各黨團還是沒辦法達成共識所以我現在做兩項宣告一 本來各黨團迄今未達成共識我們一 規定處理二 我們現在散會國安部能不能表示一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
8259.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
8260.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-05-06T15:01:09.322000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-05-06T15:01:25.408000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
好，開會時間已到，現在國民黨黨團代表……請工作同仁通知一下，國民黨黨團幹部還沒有
到，問一下情況怎麼樣。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
0.955 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-05-06T15:01:25.408000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-05-06T15:01:34.632000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
謝謝已經先到的民進黨蔡總召及黨團幹部，也謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團的
陳總召及各位台灣民眾黨黨團幹部，非常感謝，也謝謝列席的官員，大家請坐一下，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-05-06T15:01:53.255000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-05-06T15:01:53.678000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
傅
總召還沒到是嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-05-06T15:01:59.968000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-05-06T15:02:04.990000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
傅總召還沒有到，我想先謝謝今天列席的三個黨團主要幹部大部分都已經到
了。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.909 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-05-06T15:02:05.150000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-05-06T15:02:26.131000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
我想徵詢一下黨團幹部、列席的內閣閣員，還有各位部會首長，因為我們今天協商題目有兩
題，第一題是軍購特別條例，第二題是醫療法修正草案，各黨黨團幹部是否能夠同意讓第二題
的醫療法先討論，這樣會不會比較好一點，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
0.968 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-05-06T15:02:26.291000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-05-06T15:02:35.797000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
因為第二題，我怕時間可能會比較長一點
，如果大家都同意的話，我們今天就將醫療法修正草案調為第一題討論好嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.896 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-05-06T15:02:37.158000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-05-06T15:02:38.859000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
謝謝國防部的顧部長，請先休息一下。 |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-05-06T15:02:39.339000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-05-06T15:02:40.019000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
我們請衛福部。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-05-06T15:02:40.840000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-05-06T15:03:12.601000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
謝謝，我們請衛福部石部長還有衛福部所有列席官員，請先列席好嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.964 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-05-06T15:03:12.601000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-05-06T15:03:15.783000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
謝謝
，台灣民眾黨黨團準備發言，等一下衛福部一到，我們就要開始進行。 |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-05-06T15:08:19.585000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-05-06T15:08:22.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
衛福部石部長已到，謝
謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.9 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-05-06T15:08:22.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-05-06T15:08:45.644000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
今天我們跟各位黨團幹部報告一下，我們列席的是衛生福利部的石部長，還有護理健康司的
蔡司長、醫事司的劉副司長，法規會的陳參事、法務部的汪參事，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.954 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-05-06T15:08:46.465000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-05-06T15:08:57.044000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
今天麻煩請提案的台灣民眾黨黨團針對提案作說明，國民黨黨團有蘇清泉委員提案，請國民
黨黨團準備，請。 |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.864 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-05-06T15:08:57.364000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-05-06T15:09:01.446000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
主席、各位與會的委員，還有我們政府的同仁大家好。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-05-06T15:09:02.207000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-05-06T15:09:15.933000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
台灣民眾黨為了解決血汗護理
的現象，所以我們提出醫療法第十二條的修正案，在第一百零二條之一也有提出一個相對應的
罰則。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-05-06T15:09:16.113000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-05-06T15:09:36.354000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
事實上護理界血汗護理的現象，屢屢被媒體所披露，護理人員出現了一個大逃亡的現象
，其原因不外乎三個主要理由：低薪、高護病比還有勞動條件差。 |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.984 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-05-06T15:09:37.895000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-05-06T15:10:19.828000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
所以針對三班護病比這件事
，我們就用醫療法第十二條幫護理人員爭取三班護病比的標準，因為三班護病比的標準必須要
入法，入法之後醫院才能夠依照這個標準配置合理的人力，我們護理人員才能夠依據合理的工
作負擔，提供病患良好的照護品質，還有也才能夠維護病患的安全，所以我們在醫療法第十二
協 2
條增訂了第四項，就是應該要在現行的醫療機構設置標準訂定三班護病比的標準；然後這個標
準是由誰來訂？ |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-05-06T15:10:20.209000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-05-06T15:10:45.841000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
我們這邊有做一個設計，就是中央主管機關要成立諮詢委員會來訂定三班護病
比的標準；之後因為這個標準訂出來應該要與時俱進，有可能 5 年後、10 年後就不適用這一組
標準，所以我們也責成中央諮詢委員會去定期的檢討、調整這樣一個標準，這是醫療法第十二
條第四項的規定。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.956 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-05-06T15:10:47.382000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-05-06T15:11:03.510000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
當然這個諮詢委員會的組成，我們在第五項增訂護理人員的團體代表人數不
能夠少於全體委員會的二分之一的規定，這是我們在醫療法第十二條增訂第四項跟第五項的內
容。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.877 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-05-06T15:11:04.331000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-05-06T15:11:37.584000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
另外我們有提出一個相對應的罰則，就是如果今天醫療機構違反醫療法第十二條第三項關
於三班護病比人數標準的話，我們訂定了一個相對應比較重的罰則，如果是地區醫院，就是 50
萬到 200萬；如果是區域醫院，就是 100萬到 500萬；如果是醫學中心，就是 200萬到 1,000萬
。 |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.883 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-05-06T15:11:37.824000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-05-06T15:11:55.838000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
當然罰錢有時候醫院也不太會遵守，所以如果醫院被罰了錢沒有改善的話，那就按次連續處
罰，如果再沒有改善，就會給予一個月以上一年以下的停業處分，以上說明，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-05-06T15:11:55.838000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-05-06T15:11:57.359000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
謝謝邱委員的提案說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.9 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-05-06T15:11:57.860000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-05-06T15:12:07.907000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
接下來國民黨黨團蘇清泉委員有提案，請國民黨黨團表達意見，請盧縣一委員表達意見，民
進黨黨團請準備。 |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.795 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
盧委員縣一 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-05-06T15:12:08.087000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-05-06T15:12:44.344000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
針對護理人員的執業率目前僅有 60%，高達 12 萬名的護理人員因為環境惡劣而流失
，三班護病比遲遲沒有入法，所以蘇清泉委員針對護產人員輪班比例配置基準提案，並於今年 1
月 16 號逕付二讀，希望能夠入法，本案寫的是醫療機構護產相關團體代表人數均不得高於邀集
會商人數的三分之一；羅廷瑋版本是 5 月 8 號進來的，是明定醫院急性、一般病床三班護病比
的規範應該由中央主管機關訂定，以上補充。 |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.767 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-05-06T15:12:45.424000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-05-06T15:12:50.086000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
謝謝盧縣一委員的補充，也講出了蘇清泉委員和羅廷瑋委員的版本。 |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-05-06T15:12:50.506000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-05-06T15:12:52.067000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
接下來請民進黨黨團發言，發言完畢請衛福部石部長準備發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
范委員雲 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-05-06T15:12:55.489000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-05-06T15:13:46.965000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
我想民進黨黨團這邊絕對非常重視這個議題，因為護病比主要就是因為現在第一線的護
理師人手不夠，長久以來大家認為他們的勞動權益沒有受到重視，所以絕對要一起解決這個血
汗護理的問題，如果能夠讓護病比合理的話，護理師的權益被照顧到其實就是病人的權益被照
顧到，全國 2,300 萬人一生中都有機會成為醫院裡面的病人，我想大家對病人的安全還有醫療的
品質絕對都非常重視，所以如何能夠在合情、合理的情況下讓護理師的負荷被解決，絕對是我
們民進黨團的立場。 |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.94 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
范委員雲 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-05-06T15:13:50.947000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-05-06T15:13:55.749000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
至於這個部分是要修醫療法或者是修醫療機構設置標準？ |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.917 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
范委員雲 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-05-06T15:13:56.750000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-05-06T15:14:15.378000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
這部分我們尊重專業的意見，我們
知道原本是放在醫療機構設置標準當中，這部分希望今天大家能夠好好的討論，因為修法花費
的時間就會比較久，如果放在醫療機構設置標準，會不會比較有彈性？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.951 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
范委員雲 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-05-06T15:14:15.778000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-05-06T15:14:24.004000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
這部分我覺得我們大家
可以專業討論，如果不用動法，讓它很難處理的話，我們當然覺得這是一個選項，所以待會也
想聽聽看衛福部的意見。 |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.982 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
范委員雲 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-05-06T15:14:24.024000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:01.272000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
最後還有兩個部分要大家一起考慮，就是懲罰如何有效，可是又不會造成關病床，反而使得
病人權益受傷，這是我們擔心的；另外我們都知道護理師人力不夠，但要如何減低修法之後的
衝擊，能夠讓它修法後是真正地不會影響到病人權益，我想在我們調整的時候，也希望一併考
協 3
慮，這些都希望待會兒衛福部能夠跟大家說明，以上。 |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.659 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:02.513000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:03.774000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
莊瑞雄委員，你要等石部長發言之前還是之後？ |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.421 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:03.774000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:07.250000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
都可以。 |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:07.250000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:08.030000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
先講一下好了。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:08.611000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:11.854000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
不好意思，石部長請稍待，因為莊委員想要表達一下意見。 |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.913 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:11.854000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:12.394000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
好，莊瑞雄委員，請。 |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
0.571 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:13.235000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:26.407000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
院長還有各位協商代表，醫療法這個條文的修正，三班護病比的部分，我看三黨其實
對這個制度做一個調整，大家都有一定的共識。 |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
0.925 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:27.548000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:30.809000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
但是剛剛台灣民眾黨所提到的，你如果做不夠
，之後地區醫院我就給你罰多少、醫學中心罰多少、區域醫院罰多少，甚至於會把你的醫院停
業。 |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:30.950000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:32.130000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
我認為這種事情都不會發生，醫院比我們還聰明，他很聰明，你知不知道？ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:32.470000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-05-06T15:15:33.531000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
怎可能讓你這
樣關掉，我給你關床，我哪要讓你罰那麼多錢！ |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0.792 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-05-06T15:15:33.531000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-05-06T15:16:21.716000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
第一個，錢也罰不到，整個醫療法的修訂，我
看最主要也不是只有解決什麼血汗護理，倒也不是，反而是我們一般在談全日醫護比，到現在
的三班醫護比，全日的醫護比裡面，白天還有小夜班、大夜班，你把它平均去除的話，數字確
實會美化掉。 |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-05-06T15:16:22.516000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-05-06T15:16:35.168000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
你如果是三班來看的話，白天班的，假設我這個醫院白天放 10 個護理師，到小夜
班甚至到大夜班搞不好只剩下 2個，這個數字就會凸顯出來。 |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0.982 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-05-06T15:16:35.168000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-05-06T15:16:43.636000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
所以我反而會覺得這個制度應該最主要是整個醫療服務量能跟病人的安全、受到更好照顧的
一個問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-05-06T15:16:44.998000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-05-06T15:16:58.151000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
如果我們今天修法，錢放下去、人進來就解決掉了，那三黨大家都有共識，這沒有
問題，但重點就是沒有這麼簡單，涉及到醫院的問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-05-06T15:16:59.192000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-05-06T15:17:17.892000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
所以是不是就是在原來設置標準的部分
，那等於是醫療法的子法，我們大家都怕衝擊，各黨都會遭受到，不然這一題，你們的黨主席
以前就一直在講了，為什麼到最後好像大家的態度就稍微再緩下來的原因，就是怕業者做不到
。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-05-06T15:17:18.913000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-05-06T15:17:29.406000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
反而我會覺得衛福部這邊的評估裡面，你缺多少人、多久可以去把它補齊，你總是要有人嘛
！ |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
0.865 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-05-06T15:17:29.966000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-05-06T15:17:30.987000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
你總是要多少錢嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-05-06T15:17:31.668000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-05-06T15:17:43.203000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
這個才是重點，不然開醫院的不管是地區醫院、醫學中心，醫療法甚至
於訂了罰則，再把它提高，假的啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-05-06T15:17:44.624000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-05-06T15:17:49.588000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
我們立法院自己在這邊弄爽的而已，醫院都比我們還聰明
，到最後呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-05-06T15:17:50.709000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-05-06T15:17:56.313000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
到最後你說三班護病比，到晚上你沒有護理師，沒有護理師，床把它關掉啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-05-06T15:17:57.034000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:01.157000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
人
全部都擠到急診室去，反而更沒有辦法解決問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:01.437000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:07.541000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
各黨我們都是好意，好意到最後我們弄出來
的版本是沒有辦法去解決問題啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:07.561000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:13.323000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
所以我倒想聽聽看，部長，你們要多久的時間？ |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:13.323000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:15.864000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
緩衝期，欠多少、一年能夠補多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:17.285000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:19.566000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
不要讓
人家覺得我們在這邊都說假的。 |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.625 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:21.087000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:41.317000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
入法或者設置標準，設置標準本身也是一個子法，你光要弄一
個罰則的話，我認為那個是變成我們大家在為特定的，你說護理師團體也好或者其他的團體也
好，你說我們只是為了滿足他們，可是沒有達到我們要做的對病人更好的照顧啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.928 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:41.858000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:46.300000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
如果錢砸下
去就有用、人請多一些就有辦法處理事情，那是很簡單的事情，但是問題就這麼簡單嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.9 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:46.300000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:46.580000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
想聽
聽看衛福部你們的規劃是怎麼樣。 |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:52.044000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-05-06T15:18:52.725000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-05-06T15:18:52.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-05-06T15:19:00.702000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
大概就濃縮在四大塊：護病比、諮詢委員會、罰款金額以及衛福部
的評估。 |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2026-05-06T15:19:01.123000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2026-05-06T15:19:01.363000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
麻煩請石部長發言。協 4 |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[61].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[61].start |
2026-05-06T15:19:03.965000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[61].end |
2026-05-06T15:19:05.867000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].text |
院長還有各位委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[61].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[62].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[62].start |
2026-05-06T15:19:06.288000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[62].end |
2026-05-06T15:19:26.388000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].text |
就護理人力，我們都了解要維護一定的醫療品質以及護理的工作
負荷，護病比確有它的需要，所以我們 108 年就在醫療機構設置標準第十二條之一有增訂全日
護病比的要求。 |
| transcript.gazette[62].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[63].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[63].start |
2026-05-06T15:19:27.109000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[63].end |
2026-05-06T15:19:36.914000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].text |
因此在 108 年確實已經把護病比入法，設定在醫療機構設置標準第十二條之一
，指的是全日護病比。 |
| transcript.gazette[63].quality |
0.872 |
| transcript.gazette[64].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[64].start |
2026-05-06T15:19:37.775000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[64].end |
2026-05-06T15:19:56.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].text |
當然經過一段時間之後，為了讓人力的供給及其負荷能夠達到更均衡，
不要有剛剛說到的美化數字情形，所以才有三班護病比的倡議。 |
| transcript.gazette[64].quality |
0.927 |
| transcript.gazette[65].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[65].start |
2026-05-06T15:19:56.466000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[65].end |
2026-05-06T15:20:07.397000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].text |
我們也同意這樣的方向，所以
從 113年開始就在談這個三班護病比的標準應該是什麼，同時開始推動。 |
| transcript.gazette[65].quality |
0.925 |
| transcript.gazette[66].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[66].start |
2026-05-06T15:20:07.557000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[66].end |
2026-05-06T15:20:56.598000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].text |
我們也推出了護理人力
十二項改革計畫，推動健保支付制度的調整、增加護理費等等，這主要就是我們著眼部分國家
的州，像美國部分的州或者是澳洲部分的州有實施三班護病比的法定規定時，如果人力不足就
會造成關床，關床的結果就造成住院等候的延長或者是急診的候床，這樣反而造成另外一個副
作用，影響到民眾的就醫權益，所以我們才會很謹慎地在推進，透過各種措施來補充人力。 |
| transcript.gazette[66].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[67].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[67].start |
2026-05-06T15:20:58.198000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[67].end |
2026-05-06T15:21:20.351000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].text |
從今年 3 月最新的資料來看，我們比去年同期（3 月）大概增加四千九百多名的護理人力進入
職場，這是指淨增加，中間大概差不多六成，就是 3,000 名左右進入醫院，因為我們談的三班護
病比就是指醫院。 |
| transcript.gazette[67].quality |
0.886 |
| transcript.gazette[68].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[68].start |
2026-05-06T15:21:20.752000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[68].end |
2026-05-06T15:21:24.754000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].text |
護理人力的需求是有很多場域的，在醫院的大概是六成。 |
| transcript.gazette[68].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[69].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[69].start |
2026-05-06T15:21:25.976000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[69].end |
2026-05-06T15:21:47.770000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].text |
以這樣來推估，我
們現在如果實施三班護病比，之後的人力缺口大概在 1萬 2,500名到 2萬名之間，就是如果病床
全開，大概需要 2萬名，如果考慮到占床率，大概需要 1萬 2,500名。 |
| transcript.gazette[69].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[70].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[70].start |
2026-05-06T15:21:48.811000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[70].end |
2026-05-06T15:22:12.646000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].text |
換言之，以現在的人力供
給趨勢，這還是回到疫情前，疫情中更低，有時候一年只增加一千多名，那是沒有辦法支撐的
，如果能夠維持這樣的趨勢，預估至少要 2年到 3年左右把人力補足，這個就可以落實。 |
| transcript.gazette[70].quality |
0.95 |
| transcript.gazette[71].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[71].start |
2026-05-06T15:22:12.646000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[71].end |
2026-05-06T15:22:31.896000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].text |
所以我們第一個是建議把三班護病比的標準訂在醫療機構設置標準，就是把之前所訂的全日
護病比修改成為三班護病比來訂這個標準，這是我們的第一個建議。 |
| transcript.gazette[71].quality |
0.791 |
| transcript.gazette[72].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[72].start |
2026-05-06T15:22:32.396000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[72].end |
2026-05-06T15:22:41.782000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].text |
第二個建議是需要有一個
緩衝的時間，讓這個法律實施之前儘量把人力補足。 |
| transcript.gazette[72].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[73].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[73].start |
2026-05-06T15:22:42.383000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[73].end |
2026-05-06T15:23:10.379000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].text |
而在這個補充的過程當中，當然也會有其
他相關配套，包含導入一些智慧化、自動化的協助，降低護理人力的負荷，我們也推動住院照
服員的協助，我們稱之為「住院整合照護計畫」，來協助降低住院病人護理生活照顧的負荷，
這些我們都會同步推進。 |
| transcript.gazette[73].quality |
0.93 |
| transcript.gazette[74].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[74].start |
2026-05-06T15:23:10.639000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[74].end |
2026-05-06T15:23:32.027000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].text |
至於這個委員會的設置，因為我們在醫療機構設置標準的設定過程當中，本來就都會邀集相
關的利益關係人團體一起討論，本來就有這個機制，所以需不需要在醫療法裡面專門為了護病
比再去另定一個委員會？ |
| transcript.gazette[74].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[75].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[75].start |
2026-05-06T15:23:32.187000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[75].end |
2026-05-06T15:23:46.873000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].text |
我們是覺得不見得需要，因為根據設置標準，要做法規、命令的預告
、公告之前，本來就要召開會議，自然就會有相關的利害關係人參與。 |
| transcript.gazette[75].quality |
0.963 |
| transcript.gazette[76].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[76].start |
2026-05-06T15:23:48.434000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[76].end |
2026-05-06T15:23:55.462000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].text |
罰則的部分，我們也認為維持現行醫療法罰則，不宜加重，因為沒有實質的意義。 |
| transcript.gazette[76].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[77].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[77].start |
2026-05-06T15:23:56.023000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[77].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:18.585000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].text |
過高的罰
責只是讓醫院直接以關床來因應，並沒有實質的意義，反而造成太大的衝擊，所以我們是希望
維持現行規定，讓行政機關從醫療機構設置標準來著手修訂，我們也已經開始啟動這個修法程
序了。 |
| transcript.gazette[77].quality |
0.928 |
| transcript.gazette[78].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[78].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:18.765000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[78].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:20.167000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].text |
以上補充說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[78].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[79].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[79].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:20.767000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[79].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:23.450000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].text |
謝謝石部長很完整的說明，非常感謝！ |
| transcript.gazette[79].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[80].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[80].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:23.710000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[80].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:24.591000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].text |
邱委員，你要不要補充？ |
| transcript.gazette[80].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[81].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[81].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:25.972000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[81].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:26.572000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].text |
OK，謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.gazette[81].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[82].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[82].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:27.533000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[82].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:38.163000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].text |
我這邊需要做一個說明和澄清，就是在我們台灣民眾黨推出的醫療
法修法版本中，第十二條第四項是一個怎麼樣的法條？ |
| transcript.gazette[82].quality |
0.76 |
| transcript.gazette[83].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[83].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:38.163000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[83].end |
2026-05-06T15:24:54.816000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].text |
我們沒有把三班護病比的數字……目前
協 5
有 9個數字：衛福部在 113年 3月 1日公告 9個數字，根據不同的醫院層級以及白班、小夜、大
夜，有 9 個數字，我們並沒有把三班護病比的具體數字用醫療法來規範，為什麼我們沒有把這 9
個數字用醫療法來規範？ |
| transcript.gazette[83].quality |
0.905 |
| transcript.gazette[84].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[84].start |
2026-05-06T15:24:54.816000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[84].end |
2026-05-06T15:25:17.509000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].text |
因為可能 3 年後、5 年後，隨著環境的改變，有可能這一組數字也會調
整，所以我們不敢把它定在醫療法裡頭，定在醫療法裡頭，3 年後、5 年後又要處理就會很複雜
，而且也不容易更動，所以我們的處理方式是怎麼樣呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[84].quality |
0.976 |
| transcript.gazette[85].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[85].start |
2026-05-06T15:25:17.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[85].end |
2026-05-06T15:25:36.876000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].text |
我們處理方式是三班護病比的 9 個數
字，當然是要規範在部長所說的醫療機構設置標準當中，當然是往那邊把 9 個數字放進去，但
是如果把 9 個數字放進去就可以了，那麼為什麼我們還有醫療法第十二條第四項的增訂？ |
| transcript.gazette[85].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[86].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[86].start |
2026-05-06T15:25:37.036000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[86].end |
2026-05-06T15:25:55.817000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].text |
最主
要是因為過去數年來，五、六年來，護理界一直在倡議，請把三班護病比入法，衛福部不知道
是沒有聽到護理人員的吶喊，還是聽到了，但是就是消極不作為，沒有把這 9 個數字放進去醫
療機構設置標準？ |
| transcript.gazette[86].quality |
0.939 |
| transcript.gazette[87].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[87].start |
2026-05-06T15:25:56.417000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[87].end |
2026-05-06T15:26:32.982000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].text |
我們的吶喊已經非常久了，基層護理人員已經等不及了，所以我們台灣民眾
黨才出了一個版本，醫療法本身要規定什麼，中央主管機關應該把三班護病比的標準放到醫療
機構設置標準，我們這條修法是為了 push 衛福部去做該做的事，甚至講難聽一點，就是要逼迫
跟強制衛福部把那 9 個數字放進去醫療機構設置標準，所以我們雖然是在母法的層次，但是沒
有把那 9個數字放進去，這是第一件事要跟大家說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[87].quality |
0.97 |
| transcript.gazette[88].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[88].start |
2026-05-06T15:26:34.082000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[88].end |
2026-05-06T15:26:44.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].text |
第二件事，剛剛有委員提到，這個數字當然都有助於國人。 |
| transcript.gazette[88].quality |
0.957 |
| transcript.gazette[89].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[89].start |
2026-05-06T15:26:46.226000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[89].end |
2026-05-06T15:27:12.534000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].text |
好，現在重點來了，如果民進黨
這邊也同意的話，因為你有提到緩衝期或什麼時候實施的問題，最主要這個是賴賴總統的政見
，他說兩年內要讓它上路，現在離他的兩年內大概只剩下幾天，所以如果我們可以在最近三讀
通過，然後總統公布，應該是在兩個禮拜以內就可以施行了。 |
| transcript.gazette[89].quality |
0.956 |
| transcript.gazette[90].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[90].start |
2026-05-06T15:27:12.734000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[90].end |
2026-05-06T15:27:23.980000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].text |
所以其實我這邊是回應民進黨，
我們是在幫賴總統實現他的政見，因為他給護理人員這個承諾，大家等很久，已經等不及了。 |
| transcript.gazette[90].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[91].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[91].start |
2026-05-06T15:27:24.700000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[91].end |
2026-05-06T15:27:42.413000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].text |
接下來，因為醫界雇主一直用一個說法，就是三班護病比如果入法，我們會關床等什麼的，事
實上不是，護理人員覺得醫院非常血汗，他不想進去，護理人員會流失越來越多，這種情況才
會關床。 |
| transcript.gazette[91].quality |
0.922 |
| transcript.gazette[92].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[92].start |
2026-05-06T15:27:43.253000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[92].end |
2026-05-06T15:28:01.366000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].text |
如果你把三班護病比的規定訂定出來，大家覺得回到臨床，合理的工作量已經出現了
，也許就會讓護理人員逐漸的回流，我覺得眼光要放長，而且要從這個角度看，不要一直覺得
三班護病比入法就會關床，反而三班護病比沒有入法才會關床，以上說明，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[92].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[93].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[93].start |
2026-05-06T15:28:03.898000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[93].end |
2026-05-06T15:28:04.939000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].text |
謝謝邱委員的補充說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[93].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[94].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[94].start |
2026-05-06T15:28:05.700000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[94].end |
2026-05-06T15:28:07.080000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].text |
盧縣一委員，你要不要再補充說明一下？ |
| transcript.gazette[94].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[95].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[95].start |
2026-05-06T15:28:08.481000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[95].end |
2026-05-06T15:28:12.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].text |
請傅崐萁總召委，請。 |
| transcript.gazette[95].quality |
0.625 |
| transcript.gazette[96].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[96].start |
2026-05-06T15:28:12.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[96].end |
2026-05-06T15:28:40.531000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].text |
這個事情，我想國會應該嚴肅面對，因為不管哪一個家庭都有老大人，終究大家人生
一生都會走進需要醫療協助幫忙的時刻，我們臺灣的健保是非常好的，但是實施到現在，有很
多該檢討的時候沒有去檢討。 |
| transcript.gazette[96].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[97].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[97].start |
2026-05-06T15:28:40.711000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[97].end |
2026-05-06T15:28:58.982000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].text |
當我們國家 GDP 的成長，第一季 GDP 成長到 11%還是 13%，在
這種情況之下，還會有血汗工廠、血汗勞務，這是不可思議的事情！ |
| transcript.gazette[97].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[98].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[98].start |
2026-05-06T15:29:00.315000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[98].end |
2026-05-06T15:29:26.101000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].text |
我們從 SARS 再看到
COVID-19，醫療人員不只要冒著自己的生命危險，還要去搶救在生命邊緣的這些患者，結果他
們日夜在忙碌，卻一直沒有辦法得到最好的、該調整的、該應有的待遇。 |
| transcript.gazette[98].quality |
0.974 |
| transcript.gazette[99].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[99].start |
2026-05-06T15:29:27.482000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[99].end |
2026-05-06T15:30:05.644000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].text |
所以兩年前國民黨團
、民眾黨團提出了健保點值要提升到 0.95，當時的邱部長私底下是很支持的，而實施到現在，
每當到護士節、醫護節，過去多少護士在陳情，誠如衛福部講的，健保點值 0.95 號稱一年要多
協 6
700 億，當時行政院提出很多反對的意見，結果 2 年 1,400 億下去了，流到醫護手上的有多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[99].quality |
0.896 |
| transcript.gazette[100].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[100].start |
2026-05-06T15:30:07.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[100].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[100].end |
2026-05-06T15:30:13.932000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[100].text |
加護病房原來一天是 800 塊，到現在還是 800 塊，錢到哪裡去了？ |
| transcript.gazette[100].quality |
0.955 |
| transcript.gazette[101].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[101].start |
2026-05-06T15:30:14.752000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[101].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[101].end |
2026-05-06T15:30:46.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[101].text |
我們在這裡講話壓力很大，
所有的醫院都來了，擁有者都來了，但是我們認為在保護全民健康的是這些醫療護理人員，他
們並沒有得到應有的待遇，現在行政院不能用這麼荒唐的說法倒果為因，說什麼因為有三班護
病比入法，所以會關床，這邏輯不對嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[101].quality |
0.922 |
| transcript.gazette[102].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[102].start |
2026-05-06T15:30:47.129000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[102].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[102].end |
2026-05-06T15:30:49.531000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[102].text |
如果他們有得到應有的待遇，就不會跑到長照去了嘛
！ |
| transcript.gazette[102].quality |
0.773 |
| transcript.gazette[103].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[103].start |
2026-05-06T15:30:50.841000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[103].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[103].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:19.396000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[103].text |
臺灣的醫療原本 30 年前是亞洲第一，現在人才還是最好的，但是都跑到香港、新加坡、澳洲
、日本去了，人家的待遇是我們的 2 倍、3 倍、4 倍，5 倍的也有，所以我們需要這麼多臺灣優
秀的醫療護理人才留在臺灣，但整個衛福部、行政院有沒有好好思考過，對得起他們嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[103].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[104].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[104].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:22.229000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[104].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[104].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:25.471000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[104].text |
對得
起他們嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[104].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[105].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[105].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:25.471000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[105].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[105].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:30.335000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[105].text |
2 年前也是在這裡，行政院的說法是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[105].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[106].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[106].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:30.335000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[106].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[106].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:41.103000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[106].text |
健保點值 0.95，一年要花 6、700 億，可
是到現在，醫生跟護理人員拿到了什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[106].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[107].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[107].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:41.103000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[107].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[107].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:43.384000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[107].text |
我們不是在這裡立法付了嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[107].quality |
0.917 |
| transcript.gazette[108].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[108].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:45.746000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[108].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[108].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:54.588000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[108].text |
結果讓這些醫院的擁有
者更加 rich，而基層人員更加苦難，現在物價漲了多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[108].quality |
0.824 |
| transcript.gazette[109].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[109].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:55.308000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[109].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[109].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:56.909000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[109].text |
他們還可以生活嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[109].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[110].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[110].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:56.909000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[110].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[110].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:57.569000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[110].text |
為什麼會去長照？ |
| transcript.gazette[110].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[111].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[111].start |
2026-05-06T15:31:58.089000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[111].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[111].end |
2026-05-06T15:31:58.929000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[111].text |
長照待遇好啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[111].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[112].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[112].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:00.850000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[112].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[112].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:20.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[112].text |
所以今天我們不只是要落實過去民進黨對醫護的承諾，我們是幫你們落實對醫
護的承諾，賴清德總統競選的首要政見是 2 年要入法，現在要入法了，你們還有其他的意見，
我們真的很好奇！ |
| transcript.gazette[112].quality |
0.855 |
| transcript.gazette[113].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[113].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:21.770000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[113].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[113].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:30.912000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[113].text |
經濟成長這麼好，IT 產業這麼發達，AI 這樣蓬勃，第一季 GDP13%，我們超
收多少稅收？ |
| transcript.gazette[113].quality |
0.972 |
| transcript.gazette[114].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[114].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:31.673000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[114].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[114].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:41.124000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[114].text |
要趕快來做這方面的調整，石部長，大家對你有高度的期待，應該趕快把這個事
情處理好，不要再講其他的理由，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[114].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[115].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[115].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:41.904000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[115].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[115].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:43.285000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[115].text |
你要帶著笑臉說：你看！ |
| transcript.gazette[115].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[116].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[116].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:43.485000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[116].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[116].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:45.786000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[116].text |
在野黨這麼支持衛福部，
對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[116].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[117].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[117].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:47.946000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[117].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[117].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:52.708000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[117].text |
當時雖然執政黨講完，邱部長臉上有難色，但我們講完他都很高興，你知道嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[117].quality |
0.968 |
| transcript.gazette[118].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[118].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:56.167000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[118].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[118].end |
2026-05-06T15:32:59.031000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[118].text |
現在
我們也講完了，你也帶個笑臉看我們一下，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[118].quality |
0.864 |
| transcript.gazette[119].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[119].start |
2026-05-06T15:32:59.132000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[119].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[119].end |
2026-05-06T15:33:01.635000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[119].text |
全國醫護都在看你，好不好？謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[119].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[120].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[120].start |
2026-05-06T15:33:01.635000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[120].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[120].end |
2026-05-06T15:33:02.617000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[120].text |
好，謝謝傅崐萁總召的發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[120].quality |
0.727 |
| transcript.gazette[121].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[121].start |
2026-05-06T15:33:03.879000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[121].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[121].end |
2026-05-06T15:33:07.665000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[121].text |
在蔡總召發言完畢之後，要請石部長二輪回應，好嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[121].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[122].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[122].start |
2026-05-06T15:33:07.665000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[122].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[122].end |
2026-05-06T15:33:07.986000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[122].text |
好，請蔡總召。謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[122].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[123].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[123].start |
2026-05-06T15:33:10.875000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[123].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[123].end |
2026-05-06T15:33:28.645000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[123].text |
我也回應一下傅總召，今天在場的三黨其實都支持從全日護病比改成三班護病
比，所以沒有人反對三班護病比，只是現在第一個差異是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[123].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[124].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[124].start |
2026-05-06T15:33:28.645000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[124].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[124].end |
2026-05-06T15:33:41.976000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[124].text |
衛福部希望在原本的醫療機構
設置標準中直接處理就行，但是民眾黨希望在醫療法第十二條加一個源頭。 |
| transcript.gazette[124].quality |
0.864 |
| transcript.gazette[125].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[125].start |
2026-05-06T15:33:41.976000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[125].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[125].end |
2026-05-06T15:34:16.138000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[125].text |
好，其實對民進黨
而言，我們澈底支持變成三班護病比，那九格的數字大家都知道，民進黨是全力支持，現在如
果要討論是否入法，民進黨不會說我們一定反對入法，如果加一個源頭會讓護理師同仁更覺得
安心一點，其實並不是不可以，只是需不需要這樣做？ |
| transcript.gazette[125].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[126].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[126].start |
2026-05-06T15:34:17.099000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[126].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[126].end |
2026-05-06T15:34:28.581000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[126].text |
這裡面涉及到立法院對行政院的信心，
我講白就是這樣子，邱委員可能覺得有一個源頭比較有信心，對護理師同仁也比較有保障…… |
| transcript.gazette[126].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[127].speaker |
邱委員慧洳 |
| transcript.gazette[127].start |
2026-05-06T15:34:30.283000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[127].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[127].end |
2026-05-06T15:34:30.623000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[127].text |
因為護理人員等了十幾年了。 |
| transcript.gazette[127].quality |
0.583 |
| transcript.gazette[128].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[128].start |
2026-05-06T15:34:30.863000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[128].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[128].end |
2026-05-06T15:34:59.580000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[128].text |
對、對，沒問題、沒問題，所以我的意思是我並不反對，重點是設這個源頭目的還是
要改醫療機構的設置標準，最終還是要改醫療機構設置標準，一定要把它改成三班護病比，而
且要落實，這才是我們要的目的，也才是解決所謂血汗護理的關鍵，所以這個其實大家有共識
，沒有人反對，民進黨也很支持，也很謝謝大家的支持。 |
| transcript.gazette[128].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[129].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[129].start |
2026-05-06T15:35:00.561000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[129].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[129].end |
2026-05-06T15:35:51.601000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[129].text |
那現在問題來了，就算要放到醫療法裡面，現在我們看到的版本是國民黨的版本跟民眾黨的
版本兩個存在著很大的差異，根據國民黨的版本，要檢討護病比，他加了一大堆的條件，民眾
協 7
黨的版本幾乎是最直接了當的，沒有加任何的條件，所以我也不清楚，剛剛傅總召講了這麼支
持，那他到底要採取的是國民黨蘇清泉版本的，前面有一大堆前提的，就是要做護病比還要加
一大堆前提，還是要採取民眾黨的，沒有前提、最直接的方式，這個才是今天我們在朝野協商
要解決的核心問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[129].quality |
0.914 |
| transcript.gazette[130].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[130].start |
2026-05-06T15:35:53.121000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[130].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[130].end |
2026-05-06T15:36:15.327000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[130].text |
站在民進黨的想法上，大家目標都是一致的，要讓我們的護理師有更多的保障，減輕他們的
工作負擔，不要讓他們變成血汗護理師，這個沒有人反對，三黨都是支持的，放在什麼地方是
第一個差異。 |
| transcript.gazette[130].quality |
0.987 |
| transcript.gazette[131].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[131].start |
2026-05-06T15:36:15.707000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[131].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[131].end |
2026-05-06T15:36:43.043000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[131].text |
如果真的要到醫療法來處理，那醫療法又出現了更大的差異，就是國民黨跟民眾
黨版本的差異，當然民進黨也有自己的版本，只是要不要進入實質，大家把版本的差異弄出來
，因為國民黨的版本是最寬鬆的，簡單講就是對醫院最好的，所以這個差異要不要大家點出來
討論？ |
| transcript.gazette[131].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[132].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[132].start |
2026-05-06T15:36:43.043000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[132].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[132].end |
2026-05-06T15:36:47.607000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[132].text |
我覺得不用再互相指責，因為三黨都是支持的，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[132].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[133].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[133].start |
2026-05-06T15:36:48.048000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[133].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[133].end |
2026-05-06T15:36:48.788000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[133].text |
謝謝蔡總召。 |
| transcript.gazette[133].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[134].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[134].start |
2026-05-06T15:36:50.170000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[134].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[134].end |
2026-05-06T15:37:03.837000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[134].text |
石部長聽得非常清楚，三個黨團都是支持的，只是在方法上有一點差異，然後
國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團所提的版本內容也不太一樣，但支持護理師的精神是不變的。 |
| transcript.gazette[134].quality |
0.896 |
| transcript.gazette[135].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[135].start |
2026-05-06T15:37:04.097000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[135].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[135].end |
2026-05-06T15:37:09.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[135].text |
您下面
的發言就非常重要，你發言完畢之後，我會休息 10 分鐘，大家協商。 |
| transcript.gazette[135].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[136].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[136].start |
2026-05-06T15:37:09.719000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[136].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[136].end |
2026-05-06T15:37:14.722000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[136].text |
達成共識，我們就直接通
過；達不成共識，我們就要依規定處理了。 |
| transcript.gazette[136].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[137].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[137].start |
2026-05-06T15:37:15.363000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[137].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[137].end |
2026-05-06T15:37:16.283000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[137].text |
請部長第二輪發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[137].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[138].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[138].start |
2026-05-06T15:37:18.384000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[138].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[138].end |
2026-05-06T15:37:39.333000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[138].text |
謝謝院長再給我一次發言的機會，我想三班護病比入法，修在醫療機構設置標準是大
家的共識，只是在條文上要不要去要求設三班護病比在設置標準裡面的這一段文字，我剛剛提
到這段文字不需要在這裡去下，為什麼呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[138].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[139].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[139].start |
2026-05-06T15:37:39.473000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[139].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[139].end |
2026-05-06T15:38:00.820000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[139].text |
因為在我們的整個立法的體例、法制體例上，醫療
機構設置標準一共有七個附表，涉及到四大類不同的醫院型態裡面，從人力設置到防火等等的
一堆，單獨去列一個說這個要列入設置標準，難道其他就不用嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[139].quality |
0.906 |
| transcript.gazette[140].speaker |
石部長崇良 |
| transcript.gazette[140].start |
2026-05-06T15:38:00.820000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[140].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[140].end |
2026-05-06T15:38:39.937000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[140].text |
所以這個是在立法例上的問
題，就是我們在設置標準裡面設的是很多的項目，是很細的東西，三班護病比只是其中的一條
而已，所以我才說我們會去做三班護病比入到設置標準，因為這個也是總統政見，我們一定會
去落實，但不需要在醫療法裡面再有這樣的文字落款，因為這個跟我們的體例是有所不同的，
以上說明，再請各位委員跟院長裁示。 |
| transcript.gazette[140].quality |
0.908 |
| transcript.gazette[141].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[141].start |
2026-05-06T15:38:41.911000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[141].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[141].end |
2026-05-06T15:38:56.171000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[141].text |
石部長所講的請大家參考一下，因為我們今天下面還有很重要的案子要審，所以我們休息
10 分鐘之後就要做宣告了，請各位黨團幹部在 10 分鐘休息時間之內跟石部長再溝通一下，我們
希望能夠達成一個共識，好嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[141].quality |
0.942 |
| transcript.gazette[142].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[142].start |
2026-05-06T15:38:56.872000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[142].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[142].end |
2026-05-06T15:38:57.333000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[142].text |
我們現在休息。 |
| transcript.gazette[142].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[143].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[143].start |
2026-05-06T15:38:57.333000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[143].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[143].end |
2026-05-06T15:54:24.727000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[143].text |
休息（15時 38分）
繼續開會（15時 54分） |
| transcript.gazette[143].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[144].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[144].start |
2026-05-06T15:54:24.727000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[144].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[144].end |
2026-05-06T15:54:34.592000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[144].text |
謝謝各位委員，謝謝石部長、各位列席的官員，現在相關的條文各黨團還是沒有辦法達成共
識，我們依規定擇期處理。 |
| transcript.gazette[144].quality |
0.894 |
| transcript.gazette[145].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[145].start |
2026-05-06T15:54:35.252000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[145].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[145].end |
2026-05-06T15:54:40.535000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[145].text |
我們進行討論第一案，請國防部顧部長及相關幕僚人員就定位。 |
| transcript.gazette[145].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[146].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[146].start |
2026-05-06T15:54:41.215000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[146].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[146].end |
2026-05-06T15:54:42.836000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[146].text |
謝謝石部長，謝謝各位列席
的官員。 |
| transcript.gazette[146].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[147].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[147].start |
2026-05-06T15:55:46.113000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[147].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[147].end |
2026-05-06T15:55:46.973000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[147].text |
陳清龍總召，請來一下好嗎？謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[147].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[148].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[148].start |
2026-05-06T15:56:13.154000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[148].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[148].end |
2026-05-06T15:56:21.616000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[148].text |
協 8
謝謝各黨團幹部，謝謝今天列席的國防部顧部長及國防部所有相關的官員，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[148].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[149].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[149].start |
2026-05-06T15:56:21.616000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[149].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[149].end |
2026-05-06T15:56:26.657000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[149].text |
財政部陳
署長，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[149].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[150].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[150].start |
2026-05-06T15:56:27.717000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[150].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[150].end |
2026-05-06T15:56:30.177000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[150].text |
蔡副主計長，歡迎！謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[150].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[151].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[151].start |
2026-05-06T15:56:30.177000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[151].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[151].end |
2026-05-06T15:56:37.899000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[151].text |
經濟部、法務部、審計部、數位部、衛福部、國家科
學技術委員會、行政院公共工程委員會以及所有相關列席的官員，歡迎大家！謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[151].quality |
0.961 |
| transcript.gazette[152].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[152].start |
2026-05-06T15:56:40.964000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[152].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[152].end |
2026-05-06T15:56:51.294000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[152].text |
在繼續併案協商軍購特別條例之前，經過 4 月 15 日、23 日、27 日的協商，已經經過了三場
的協商，今天是我們第四場黨團協商。 |
| transcript.gazette[152].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[153].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[153].start |
2026-05-06T15:56:52.154000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[153].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[153].end |
2026-05-06T15:56:59.941000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[153].text |
除了行政院提案、民眾黨團提案、國民黨團提案之外，
劉建國委員等 16位提案也經院會決定逕付二讀，要併入協商。 |
| transcript.gazette[153].quality |
0.956 |
| transcript.gazette[154].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[154].start |
2026-05-06T15:57:02.178000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[154].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[154].end |
2026-05-06T15:57:05.880000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[154].text |
現在我們還有保留四個條文要進入逐條討論。 |
| transcript.gazette[154].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[155].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[155].start |
2026-05-06T15:57:05.880000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[155].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[155].end |
2026-05-06T15:57:18.747000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[155].text |
上次 4 月 27 日的協商，徐巧芯委員提出要優先
討論經費上限條文，請問各黨團代表，今天是否一樣先討論經費上限，還是要依照條次，先討
論採購項目？ |
| transcript.gazette[155].quality |
0.932 |
| transcript.gazette[156].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[156].start |
2026-05-06T15:57:18.968000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[156].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[156].end |
2026-05-06T15:57:19.568000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[156].text |
賴士葆委員請發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[156].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[157].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[157].start |
2026-05-06T15:57:19.768000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[157].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[157].end |
2026-05-06T15:57:21.169000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[157].text |
謝謝主席韓院長以及各位總召，各位委員、各位先進，大家好。 |
| transcript.gazette[157].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[158].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[158].start |
2026-05-06T15:57:31.285000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[158].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[158].end |
2026-05-06T15:57:46.613000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[158].text |
我很少參加黨團協商
，因為我不是黨的幹部，但是因為這一次這個案子是國防委員會及財政委員會共同主審的，所
以我代表財政委員會來發表意見。 |
| transcript.gazette[158].quality |
0.967 |
| transcript.gazette[159].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[159].start |
2026-05-06T15:57:46.613000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[159].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[159].end |
2026-05-06T15:58:00.080000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[159].text |
第一個，我個人非常支持我們黨主席提到的 3800+N，但是這
個 N 要具象化，N 是多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[159].quality |
0.97 |
| transcript.gazette[160].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[160].start |
2026-05-06T15:58:03.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[160].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[160].end |
2026-05-06T15:58:06.585000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[160].text |
這個 N 不能夠是 0，N 是 0 的話，那就不是 N 了！ |
| transcript.gazette[160].quality |
0.882 |
| transcript.gazette[161].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[161].start |
2026-05-06T15:58:07.185000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[161].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[161].end |
2026-05-06T15:58:22.691000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[161].text |
N 最少是一塊錢
，意思是可以到一兆、兩兆、三兆都可以，一個前提，總召提到我們的共識就是要有發價書，
所以我就具體地提到，我就把這個 N 丟出來，N 就是 4200。 |
| transcript.gazette[161].quality |
0.825 |
| transcript.gazette[162].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[162].start |
2026-05-06T15:58:22.771000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[162].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[162].end |
2026-05-06T15:58:22.791000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[162].text |
4200 這個數字怎麼來的？ |
| transcript.gazette[162].quality |
0.375 |
| transcript.gazette[163].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[163].start |
2026-05-06T15:58:22.791000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[163].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[163].end |
2026-05-06T15:58:42.501000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[163].text |
因為大家
都知道美國第一波的發價書（LOA）是 110 億美金，但一直在傳言，也看到美國的媒體有報導
，會有第二波的發價書，大概 140億美金。 |
| transcript.gazette[163].quality |
0.926 |
| transcript.gazette[164].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[164].start |
2026-05-06T15:58:42.761000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[164].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[164].end |
2026-05-06T15:59:02.974000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[164].text |
當然 140億美金換算起來是遠大於 4,200億，可是因
為我們原來匡的 3800 是針對 110 億，所以它會有一點彈性，再把它弄過來，最後加起來就是
8,000億，這樣就比較具體。 |
| transcript.gazette[164].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[165].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[165].start |
2026-05-06T15:59:02.974000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[165].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[165].end |
2026-05-06T15:59:52.687000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[165].text |
所以我具體地講，N 就是 4200，它的基礎就是因為美國媒體，而且我們部分的官員也都有透
漏這樣的訊息出來，那就是美國極可能會有第二波發價書 140 億美金，假如最後沒有了，那是
美國的問題，美國如果沒有給我們這個……所以我們第六條的修正就很簡單了，第六條只要修
正說，第二波的軍購只要美國有發價書，且國防部又認為有需要，就給它加上去，但上限是加
第一波後不能夠超過 8,000 億，所以具體的就是這樣子！ |
| transcript.gazette[165].quality |
0.904 |
| transcript.gazette[166].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[166].start |
2026-05-06T15:59:52.687000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[166].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[166].end |
2026-05-06T16:00:01.093000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[166].text |
因此，如果這樣修的話，第八條就要刪
掉，因為第八條是說有新的發價書，又要重新提一個案子。 |
| transcript.gazette[166].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[167].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[167].start |
2026-05-06T16:00:01.294000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[167].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[167].end |
2026-05-06T16:00:19.742000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[167].text |
各位，搞一個軍購特別條例法案就
搞半年了，這樣曠日費時而且對大家來講也是一個很大的負擔，我們還有很多民生法案要處理
，剛剛那個法案強調一筆一筆都非常重要，立法院要處理的案子太多了。 |
| transcript.gazette[167].quality |
0.854 |
| transcript.gazette[168].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[168].start |
2026-05-06T16:00:20.202000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[168].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[168].end |
2026-05-06T16:00:39.069000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[168].text |
同樣的，我覺得這個
事情要畢其功於一役，這裡面沒有空白授權的問題，講得非常清楚，因為第一波的發價書已經
來了，我們編了就 3,800 億，3,800 億會剩一點，但是第二波最多就讓你編到 8,000 億。 |
| transcript.gazette[168].quality |
0.707 |
| transcript.gazette[169].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[169].start |
2026-05-06T16:00:39.069000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[169].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[169].end |
2026-05-06T16:00:41.930000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[169].text |
這是我
個人的觀點，提出來請各位指教。 |
| transcript.gazette[169].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[170].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[170].start |
2026-05-06T16:00:42.290000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[170].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[170].end |
2026-05-06T16:00:46.893000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[170].text |
最後一點，我要特別表達對韓院長的支持。 |
| transcript.gazette[170].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[171].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[171].start |
2026-05-06T16:00:47.933000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[171].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[171].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:10.222000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[171].text |
韓院長非常辛苦在這裡協商，還有人跟他講這個、講那個，今天看到我們的主席有一
定的高度來表示歉意，我覺得這代表國民黨一方面尋求兩岸的和平往來、和平交流；二方面，
協 9
我們要維持一定的防衛能力。 |
| transcript.gazette[171].quality |
0.952 |
| transcript.gazette[172].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[172].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:10.942000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[172].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[172].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:16.384000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[172].text |
最後一點，我也希望民進黨黨團是不是可以針對 8,000 億來討論？ |
| transcript.gazette[172].quality |
0.88 |
| transcript.gazette[173].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[173].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:17.985000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[173].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[173].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:28.392000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[173].text |
其他的部分，國防部認為有
必要就編入年度預算，馬上就要編年度預算了，就從新的年度、116 年開始編起，年度預算馬上
就要送進來了。 |
| transcript.gazette[173].quality |
0.887 |
| transcript.gazette[174].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[174].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:28.992000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[174].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[174].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:39.039000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[174].text |
以我們現在來講，一年國防預算九千多億，占的比重這麼高，快到 4%，很快要
到 5%，這等於是一個交戰國家才有這麼高的比例。 |
| transcript.gazette[174].quality |
0.94 |
| transcript.gazette[175].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[175].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:42.062000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[175].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[175].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:46.427000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[175].text |
國防部說一毛錢都不能刪，我覺得就切一塊
，大家各讓一步。 |
| transcript.gazette[175].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[176].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[176].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:47.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[176].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[176].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:51.933000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[176].text |
我們能不能聚焦來討論 8,000 億是不是可以加一點或減一點？ |
| transcript.gazette[176].quality |
0.792 |
| transcript.gazette[177].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[177].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:51.933000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[177].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[177].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:53.855000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[177].text |
這是我個人的淺
見，請各位指教，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[177].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[178].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[178].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:53.855000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[178].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[178].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:54.456000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[178].text |
謝謝賴士葆委員的發言，謝謝賴士葆委員的關心，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[178].quality |
0.727 |
| transcript.gazette[179].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[179].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:54.576000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[179].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[179].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:55.216000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[179].text |
請莊瑞雄委員發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[179].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[180].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[180].start |
2026-05-06T16:01:55.377000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[180].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[180].end |
2026-05-06T16:01:55.417000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[180].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團請準備。 |
| transcript.gazette[180].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[181].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[181].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:02.294000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[181].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[181].end |
2026-05-06T16:02:03.975000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[181].text |
謝謝院長，還有各位協商代表。 |
| transcript.gazette[181].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[182].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[182].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:05.276000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[182].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[182].end |
2026-05-06T16:02:18.502000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[182].text |
葆哥真的是很「寶」，我現在聽到你說這個 N 是
4,200 億，本來你是說 N 不能是零，一兆、兩兆都沒關係。 |
| transcript.gazette[182].quality |
0.868 |
| transcript.gazette[183].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[183].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:18.502000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[183].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[183].end |
2026-05-06T16:02:19.303000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[183].text |
不用啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[183].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[184].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[184].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:19.543000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[184].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[184].end |
2026-05-06T16:02:25.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[184].text |
不用一兆、兩兆，也不要
4,200億，如果 N等於 8,700億，大家就很相近了，你知道嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[184].quality |
0.759 |
| transcript.gazette[185].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[185].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:25.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[185].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[185].end |
2026-05-06T16:02:27.286000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[185].text |
加起來剛好是 1.25兆。 |
| transcript.gazette[185].quality |
0.5 |
| transcript.gazette[186].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[186].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:28.727000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[186].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[186].end |
2026-05-06T16:02:33.150000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[186].text |
你剛剛講
N 是 4,200 億，其實就是在說你現在只給美國正式發價書 LOA 的部分，其他的部分就是叫做以
後再說。 |
| transcript.gazette[186].quality |
0.844 |
| transcript.gazette[187].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[187].start |
2026-05-06T16:02:33.170000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[187].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[187].end |
2026-05-06T16:03:04.678000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[187].text |
但是也不要忘記這次處理軍購條例，我們第一個想像的是威脅從什麼地方來，不管是
國防部所提出來的行政院院版，或者中國國民黨的版本，又或者台灣民眾黨的版本，我現在還
沒看到台灣民眾黨的版本，所以你們還是維持 4,000 億，但是我看到你們的秘書長出來說是
8,000 億。 |
| transcript.gazette[187].quality |
0.703 |
| transcript.gazette[188].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[188].start |
2026-05-06T16:03:05.879000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[188].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[188].end |
2026-05-06T16:03:10.163000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[188].text |
可是問題在於，我們第一個要看的是威脅從什麼地方來。 |
| transcript.gazette[188].quality |
0.913 |
| transcript.gazette[189].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[189].start |
2026-05-06T16:03:10.163000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[189].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[189].end |
2026-05-06T16:03:33.191000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[189].text |
大家現在看到的是，飛彈的
部分是威脅，有了，我們也有飛彈；戰機的部分，我們要防禦，這也是威脅，也有；無人機的
部分、火箭的部分，本來就是一個防護網，從高空到低空，從偵測到攔截，從判斷到反制，其
實全國民眾都知道，不是只有立法委員知道。 |
| transcript.gazette[189].quality |
0.98 |
| transcript.gazette[190].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[190].start |
2026-05-06T16:03:33.731000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[190].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[190].end |
2026-05-06T16:04:02.973000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[190].text |
可是我覺得提出來的版本非常可惜，哪怕是中國
國民黨剛剛所提到的 N是 4,200億，我要請問的是，你說等發價書來了再說，就是以後來了再說
，現在國防部跟美方盤整、要建置的這一套國防戰力提升系統，AI 指揮系統在什麼地方？ |
| transcript.gazette[190].quality |
0.903 |
| transcript.gazette[191].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[191].start |
2026-05-06T16:04:04.595000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[191].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[191].end |
2026-05-06T16:04:07.918000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[191].text |
整個
情蒐鏈的整合在什麼地方？ |
| transcript.gazette[191].quality |
0.923 |
| transcript.gazette[192].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[192].start |
2026-05-06T16:04:08.419000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[192].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[192].end |
2026-05-06T16:04:32.515000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[192].text |
甚至於飛彈從哪裡來，我們看得見要去反制，飛機從哪裡來，看得
見要去反制，彈道飛彈來要去反制，但就少了一樣，無人機來要去反制無人機，卻沒有看到，
而這個部分跟發價書又無關，這個部分是不會在發價書裡面的，所以是不是可以再考慮一下商
售的部分？ |
| transcript.gazette[192].quality |
0.924 |
| transcript.gazette[193].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[193].start |
2026-05-06T16:04:33.135000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[193].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[193].end |
2026-05-06T16:04:40.557000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[193].text |
甚至於軍備局或者中科院去委託製造的部分，你們真的認為這一塊都不需要嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[193].quality |
0.909 |
| transcript.gazette[194].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[194].start |
2026-05-06T16:04:40.557000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[194].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[194].end |
2026-05-06T16:04:49.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[194].text |
買
了很多武器，買到武器以後要把飛彈打出去、要把砲彈打出去，好了，打完了，怎麼辦？ |
| transcript.gazette[194].quality |
0.853 |
| transcript.gazette[195].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[195].start |
2026-05-06T16:04:49.959000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[195].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[195].end |
2026-05-06T16:04:51.162000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[195].text |
你到
底要打多久？ |
| transcript.gazette[195].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[196].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[196].start |
2026-05-06T16:04:53.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[196].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[196].end |
2026-05-06T16:05:00.145000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[196].text |
我們國防自主在我們在地國家來製造這一塊，在野黨的朋友真的認為不需要嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[196].quality |
0.939 |
| transcript.gazette[197].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[197].start |
2026-05-06T16:05:00.145000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[197].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[197].end |
2026-05-06T16:05:00.526000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[197].text |
所以 N 等於 4,200億是不是可以再考慮一下？ |
| transcript.gazette[197].quality |
0.882 |
| transcript.gazette[198].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[198].start |
2026-05-06T16:05:00.546000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[198].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[198].end |
2026-05-06T16:05:46.353000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[198].text |
我知道你們想像的是 4,200億就是一定要發價書來
才算數，可是我們再次嚴正的提出來，一定要有發價書、要有 LOA 的就是等於 4,200 億以後再
說，可是整個國防戰力的提升是整體的防護網，沒有辦法把發價書當成一個前提的條件，這個
請國民黨的朋友或者台灣民眾黨的朋友再好好考慮一下，不然等於是用喊價的，一個禮拜多
4,000 億，不然我們再多開一次會，多開一次會之後，加一加剛好變成 1 兆 2,000 億，這樣剛好
大家都不用爭吵了，民眾黨過一個禮拜之後多一倍，4,000 億變成 8,000 億，葆哥今天來之後，
他說的 3,800 億再加 4,200 億上去，改天來說不定再加 5,000 億，我可以等啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[198].quality |
0.628 |
| transcript.gazette[199].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[199].start |
2026-05-06T16:05:46.413000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[199].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[199].end |
2026-05-06T16:05:46.573000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[199].text |
我等你，這樣國
協 10
防部最高興了！ |
| transcript.gazette[199].quality |
0.462 |
| transcript.gazette[200].speaker |
莊委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.gazette[200].start |
2026-05-06T16:05:46.693000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[200].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[200].end |
2026-05-06T16:06:18.618000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[200].text |
但問題在於也不是這樣看預算，針對這個條例，我們會覺得整個防護的部分，
除非你認為國防部提這個是不必要的，也就是說，你認為國防部提這一些，你認為哪一些不必
要，我們對外來做說明，這樣才對嘛，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[200].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[201].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[201].start |
2026-05-06T16:06:18.838000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[201].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[201].end |
2026-05-06T16:06:19.938000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[201].text |
主席好，各位委員好。 |
| transcript.gazette[201].quality |
0.375 |
| transcript.gazette[202].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[202].start |
2026-05-06T16:06:20.158000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[202].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[202].end |
2026-05-06T16:06:50.321000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[202].text |
台灣民眾黨的邏輯始終都沒有變過，在看到行政院版之後，台
灣民眾黨很快就提出了台灣民眾黨的版本，當初 4,000 億的版本基本上就以當時很確定的軍購項
目，然後再加上 881 億的彈性 buffer。 |
| transcript.gazette[202].quality |
0.863 |
| transcript.gazette[203].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[203].start |
2026-05-06T16:06:51.682000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[203].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[203].end |
2026-05-06T16:07:27.351000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[203].text |
基本上台灣民眾黨的 policy 非常清楚，就是我們非常支持
臺灣強化戰力的部分，尤其感謝美國提供我們一些軍購的部分，截至目前為止，我們的 policy
都沒有變，就是軍購的部分我們其實是支持的，至於為什麼金額會有一些調整，其實就是因為
時序往前走，有些部分做了一些調整，我們這邊也做了非常多的功課，除了聽了很多專報之外
，我們私下也做了一些功課。 |
| transcript.gazette[203].quality |
0.935 |
| transcript.gazette[204].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[204].start |
2026-05-06T16:07:27.351000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[204].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[204].end |
2026-05-06T16:07:36.555000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[204].text |
也就是說，在第一批裡面，我們現在看到在國防部做了標案以後
，有一些決標的金額其實跟當初的金額都會有一點點落差。 |
| transcript.gazette[204].quality |
0.98 |
| transcript.gazette[205].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[205].start |
2026-05-06T16:07:37.075000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[205].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[205].end |
2026-05-06T16:08:01.687000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[205].text |
當然我們有去詢問了，主要是因為
他們還有一些其他的考量，不過基本上，我認為很多金額是變動的，截至目前為止，我們希望
以這個時間點為基本來做處理，舉例來說，我們原來第一波編的 4,000 億裡面，他們現在的決標
金額大概是落在 3,000億左右，所以我們會把這個納入到我們的版本最後決定的金額裡面。 |
| transcript.gazette[205].quality |
0.847 |
| transcript.gazette[206].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[206].start |
2026-05-06T16:08:06.189000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[206].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[206].end |
2026-05-06T16:08:50.819000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[206].text |
我今天也聽到民進黨委員提出一些質詢，大家都覺得很急，希望能夠趕快把這個案子定下來
，台灣民眾黨一直都是這個心態，我們很早就提出這個版本，所以我們基本上建議是不是先把
軍購的部分確定下來，因為現在在討論條例，也許條例我們可以做部分的放寬，就是第一波、
第二波比較確定了，等到編列預算的時候，我們再來看看是不是有確定的 LOA 或者是有確定的
金額，等到編列預算案的時候我們再來討論，這個大概就是現在台灣民眾黨具體的 policy，也就
是說，對於軍購的部分，我們大概都會同意，以上。 |
| transcript.gazette[206].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[207].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[207].start |
2026-05-06T16:08:53.092000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[207].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[207].end |
2026-05-06T16:08:58.217000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[207].text |
王委員，您講了半天，對於金額的阿拉伯數字您有沒有特別要…… |
| transcript.gazette[207].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[208].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[208].start |
2026-05-06T16:08:58.938000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[208].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[208].end |
2026-05-06T16:09:05.804000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[208].text |
大概就是第一批加第二批，第一批原來是 4,000 億，現在大概只剩下 3,000 億左右。 |
| transcript.gazette[208].quality |
0.867 |
| transcript.gazette[209].speaker |
王委員安祥 |
| transcript.gazette[209].start |
2026-05-06T16:09:06.445000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[209].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[209].end |
2026-05-06T16:09:18.230000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[209].text |
至於第二批的部分，我們現在看到的金額粗估大概是 5,000 億左右，所以就是像剛剛某位委員說
的，加起來接近 8,000億左右的金額。 |
| transcript.gazette[209].quality |
0.765 |
| transcript.gazette[210].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[210].start |
2026-05-06T16:09:18.230000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[210].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[210].end |
2026-05-06T16:09:19.770000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[210].text |
陳清龍總召，貴黨團並沒有針對第六條發言，是不是要一併關於第六條改為附帶決議？ |
| transcript.gazette[210].quality |
0.914 |
| transcript.gazette[211].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[211].start |
2026-05-06T16:09:25.992000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[211].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[211].end |
2026-05-06T16:09:27.053000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[211].text |
謝謝院長。 |
| transcript.gazette[211].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[212].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[212].start |
2026-05-06T16:09:27.674000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[212].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[212].end |
2026-05-06T16:10:02.097000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[212].text |
針對台灣民眾黨黨團的版本，在上次協商時有討論到我們版本的第六條，
就是政府依本條例籌編第一期預算，要考量本條例施行期間我國人口年齡結構變動因素的影響
，審慎規劃收支額度及中長程財務計畫，衡量國家歲入負擔能力以因應高齡化及少子女化對編
列預算的財政衝擊。 |
| transcript.gazette[212].quality |
0.359 |
| transcript.gazette[213].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[213].start |
2026-05-06T16:10:02.518000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[213].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[213].end |
2026-05-06T16:10:47.635000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[213].text |
針對這一條，我也了解，我們上次已經表達我們台灣民眾黨對特別條例的
立場，我們的重點是不要因為軍購、國防支出的增加而衝擊到我們社福、財政的負擔，考量讓
條例能夠很精準地對應軍購，本黨團有作成一個共識，以附帶決議的方式來辦理、安排。 |
| transcript.gazette[213].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[214].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[214].start |
2026-05-06T16:10:48.135000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[214].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[214].end |
2026-05-06T16:10:48.316000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[214].text |
以上
，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[214].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[215].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[215].start |
2026-05-06T16:10:48.316000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[215].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[215].end |
2026-05-06T16:10:54.821500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[215].text |
我們等一下會請您簽一下，第六條就改為附帶決議，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[215].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[216].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[216].start |
2026-05-06T16:10:54.821500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[216].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[216].end |
2026-05-06T16:11:01.327000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[216].text |
我們先去化掉了一條。好。協 11 |
| transcript.gazette[216].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[217].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[217].start |
2026-05-06T16:11:01.327000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[217].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[217].end |
2026-05-06T16:11:01.948000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[217].text |
謝謝院長。 |
| transcript.gazette[217].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[218].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[218].start |
2026-05-06T16:11:02.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[218].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[218].end |
2026-05-06T16:11:17.238000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[218].text |
我想在這裡要跟民進黨的朋友說明一下，就是國民黨跟民眾黨在這邊整體
來說，我們先不講細節，在大原則跟大方向上，我看到很明確是有共識的，我先把幾個共識做
一個彙整。 |
| transcript.gazette[218].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[219].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[219].start |
2026-05-06T16:11:17.418000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[219].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[219].end |
2026-05-06T16:11:32.989000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[219].text |
第一個，如果今天大家還是不先從輕重緩急……我們做事總是有個輕重緩急，不要
今天沒有 1.25 兆，你就說是不是無人機不要了、是不是什麼不要了，我們還是有一般預算可以
編入的。 |
| transcript.gazette[219].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[220].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[220].start |
2026-05-06T16:11:33.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[220].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[220].end |
2026-05-06T16:11:51.604000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[220].text |
所以我上次也強調了，民眾黨剛才也表達立場，就是我們今天是不是能夠針對軍售、
FMS 也就是美國知會美國國會有發價書的這個類別來進行討論，因為我想如果要把商購、委製
全部一起討論進去的話，今天我們已經協商到第 4 次了，又會沒有結論，我不覺得這個對國家
是有什麼幫助的。 |
| transcript.gazette[220].quality |
0.924 |
| transcript.gazette[221].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[221].start |
2026-05-06T16:11:51.664000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[221].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[221].end |
2026-05-06T16:12:20.084000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[221].text |
所以如果可以的話，我的具體建議跟民進黨朋友這邊也在談，就是我們是不是就先討論軍購
的部分、FMS 的部分應該要怎麼處理，因為從我們這裡的立場來說，非常清楚，第一個，為什
麼我們會強調要有發價書的原因，就在於我們討論的是政府對政府的軍購，所以一定會有發價
書。 |
| transcript.gazette[221].quality |
0.965 |
| transcript.gazette[222].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[222].start |
2026-05-06T16:12:20.684000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[222].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[222].end |
2026-05-06T16:12:25.107000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[222].text |
當然，剛剛民眾黨的朋友也提到了，就是第一波加第二波，他們剛剛也講到 8,000 億這個整
體的數字，剛剛葆哥也有提到。 |
| transcript.gazette[222].quality |
0.915 |
| transcript.gazette[223].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[223].start |
2026-05-06T16:12:30.110000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[223].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[223].end |
2026-05-06T16:12:50.194000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[223].text |
對數字的部分，我覺得大家都還可以討論，但是可以看到國民
黨跟民眾黨都是在針對軍購的部分，先把商售跟委製……不管要放在後面或是我們還有疑慮、
還需要後續再討論都好，可是如果我們今天的協商已經到第 4 次了，仍然要把所有 1.25 兆再全
部討論進去，那幾乎等於是沒有進度、沒有辦法討論。 |
| transcript.gazette[223].quality |
0.942 |
| transcript.gazette[224].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[224].start |
2026-05-06T16:12:50.194000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[224].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[224].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:01.416000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[224].text |
所以我在這邊想要詢問一下，是不是能夠在這個條例上面我們就從軍購的角度？ |
| transcript.gazette[224].quality |
0.97 |
| transcript.gazette[225].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[225].start |
2026-05-06T16:13:02.077000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[225].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[225].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:03.937000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[225].text |
當然，所以
才會有所謂的發價書等等的。 |
| transcript.gazette[225].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[226].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[226].start |
2026-05-06T16:13:04.617000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[226].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[226].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:23.262000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[226].text |
假設我們國民黨堅持只討論軍購，商售跟委製之後再說，民眾黨
也做這樣子的堅持，但民進黨就偏偏得要全部弄在一起，我現在真的不知道是誰不想要讓這個
條例通過，我真的不知道是誰想要讓這個協商不斷地破局、沒有進度，所以我希望今天大家是
有進度的、是為了國家好。 |
| transcript.gazette[226].quality |
0.965 |
| transcript.gazette[227].speaker |
徐委員巧芯 |
| transcript.gazette[227].start |
2026-05-06T16:13:23.322000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[227].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[227].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:27.704000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[227].text |
至於輕重緩急，現在國防部也講到了海馬士什麼時候要簽約、付款
等等，既然軍售有急迫性，我們就先從軍售需要多少的方面去做討論，這樣子才能夠極大化大
家的共識，否則最後破局了，不要往在野黨的頭上甩，不就是因為明明在野黨已經有一個共識
，就是軍購要先行、後面的後面再說，但民進黨不願意，所以才導致協商跟條例的破局嗎？謝
謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[227].quality |
0.493 |
| transcript.gazette[228].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[228].start |
2026-05-06T16:13:49.131000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[228].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[228].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:49.271000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[228].text |
先聽國防部的，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[228].quality |
0.556 |
| transcript.gazette[229].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[229].start |
2026-05-06T16:13:49.351000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[229].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[229].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:51.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[229].text |
顧部長，不好意思要麻煩您再一次跟大家說明一下，請發言，好嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[229].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[230].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[230].start |
2026-05-06T16:13:51.793000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[230].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[230].end |
2026-05-06T16:13:52.494000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[230].text |
蔡總召隨後會接著發言
。 |
| transcript.gazette[230].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[231].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[231].start |
2026-05-06T16:14:19.182000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[231].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[231].end |
2026-05-06T16:14:44.238000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[231].text |
我還是籲請大家能夠考慮我們委製 5個案跟商購 7個案的重要性，委製 5個案中有 1
個就是強弓的中程反彈道飛彈，如果不能夠擺進來這個特別預算的話，我想對於我們重層攔截
的有效性防空網會形成一個破口。 |
| transcript.gazette[231].quality |
0.859 |
| transcript.gazette[232].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[232].start |
2026-05-06T16:14:45.218000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[232].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[232].end |
2026-05-06T16:15:23.017000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[232].text |
我們還是籲請能夠考量銳鳶二型的海蒐戰術型無人機還有濱
海監偵型無人機，以及濱海攻擊型等四類攻擊型無人機以及小型自殺無人艇，因為這些部分都
是我們相關監偵或者是攻擊所必要的，這些我已一再說明了，尤其是無人機，我們透過一定的
規模來提高我們國防自主量能的防衛韌性，這的確具有重大的必要性。 |
| transcript.gazette[232].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[233].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[233].start |
2026-05-06T16:15:24.098000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[233].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[233].end |
2026-05-06T16:16:05.648000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[233].text |
協 12
另外，AI 輔助決策模組跟部隊覺知套件就是 TAK 跟臺灣戰術網路，這確實是構成我們能夠做
成作戰決策、建立共同圖像、加速擊殺鏈一個重要的部分，還有垂直起降的無人機，還有可攜
式無人機的反制系統，也包括了軍備產能的擴建，可以讓我們具備 120 天的戰備存量，這些部
分都非常具有重要性，還是籲請大家能夠考慮一下，不要從這個特別預算中把它拿出來，換言
之，請大家能夠考量。 |
| transcript.gazette[233].quality |
0.919 |
| transcript.gazette[234].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[234].start |
2026-05-06T16:16:07.188000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[234].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[234].end |
2026-05-06T16:16:23.832000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[234].text |
其他軍購的部分還有關於臺美共同採購這些部分的金額，我並不知道
8,000億夠不夠，但我認為事實上是有點問題的。 |
| transcript.gazette[234].quality |
0.894 |
| transcript.gazette[235].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[235].start |
2026-05-06T16:16:23.832000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[235].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[235].end |
2026-05-06T16:16:36.210000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[235].text |
在蔡總召發言之後我們將會休息 10分鐘，請蔡總召。 |
| transcript.gazette[235].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[236].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[236].start |
2026-05-06T16:16:36.210000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[236].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[236].end |
2026-05-06T16:16:36.450000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[236].text |
謝謝院長，謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.gazette[236].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[237].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[237].start |
2026-05-06T16:16:36.470000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[237].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[237].end |
2026-05-06T16:17:06.860000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[237].text |
雖然我跟徐巧芯委員的意見不一樣，但是我還是先謝謝他，也
謝謝民眾黨王安祥委員，至少已經從 3,800 億到 8,000 億了，對此，我表示謝謝，雖然我的意見
還是跟你們不一樣。 |
| transcript.gazette[237].quality |
0.896 |
| transcript.gazette[238].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[238].start |
2026-05-06T16:17:09.422000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[238].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[238].end |
2026-05-06T16:17:50.386000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[238].text |
對於在野黨所提到的輕重緩急，我當然懂，但是大家聽過國防部的報告那麼多次，機密的專
報也兩次了，我相信聽過的人，就如同你問我，這時我只能給你一隻手，你們現在告訴我是要
砍左手還是砍右手，因為我們看到國防部所提出來的，今天將軍也在場，譬如說剛剛顧部長念
了一大堆，這些都是為了防止敵人登陸，在之前必須用一些無人載具去做一些摧毀，這個不重
要嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[238].quality |
0.934 |
| transcript.gazette[239].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[239].start |
2026-05-06T16:17:51.949000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[239].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[239].end |
2026-05-06T16:18:18.932000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[239].text |
我懂巧芯委員的意思，但我覺得，你要我說出輕重緩急，說真的，我很難跟你講哪一個
叫輕、哪一個叫重，所以為什麼民進黨會一直堅持 1.25 兆，不是我們不懂得大家必須在政治協
商過程裡面有一些退讓或者妥協，而是我們清楚地知道，這是為了保衛臺灣、讓臺海和平一些
基本的存在啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[239].quality |
0.93 |
| transcript.gazette[240].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[240].start |
2026-05-06T16:18:20.013000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[240].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[240].end |
2026-05-06T16:18:39.764000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[240].text |
簡單講就是這樣子，所以我呼籲也是拜託，待會院長宣告休息的時候，大家再
來談一談，看看可不可能讓它更接近一點，譬如說可不可以不要砍一隻手，砍一隻手指頭就好
了？ |
| transcript.gazette[240].quality |
0.914 |
| transcript.gazette[241].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[241].start |
2026-05-06T16:18:40.985000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[241].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[241].end |
2026-05-06T16:18:50.473000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[241].text |
意思是這樣，我已經拜託到這個樣子了，等一下我們大家可以討論看看，我不知道可不可
能，但這是呼籲也是拜託嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[241].quality |
0.915 |
| transcript.gazette[242].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[242].start |
2026-05-06T16:18:50.793000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[242].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[242].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:04.085000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[242].text |
就是可不可能大家再商量一下，有哪一些是聽過機密專報……因
為機密專報的事情我也沒辦法在這裡提出，畢竟這不可以講嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[242].quality |
0.922 |
| transcript.gazette[243].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[243].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:04.206000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[243].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[243].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:20.480000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[243].text |
院長也知道，所以可不可以待
會在我們休息協商的時候，再拜託一下，再想辦法把國防部認為很重要、很困難的……你要我
一定要說出什麼叫輕重緩急，但我覺得都很重要啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[243].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[244].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[244].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:20.841000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[244].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[244].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:22.342000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[244].text |
所以可不可能大家再討論一下？ |
| transcript.gazette[244].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[245].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[245].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:23.383000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[245].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[245].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:28.407000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[245].text |
這是在協
商之前我必須再做這樣一個拜託啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[245].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[246].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[246].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:30.972000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[246].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[246].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:34.002000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[246].text |
謝謝顧部長語重，謝謝蔡總召心長，合起來是語重心長。 |
| transcript.gazette[246].quality |
0.818 |
| transcript.gazette[247].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[247].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:34.704000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[247].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[247].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:36.309000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[247].text |
好，我們休息 10分鐘，大家來討論一下，好嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[247].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[248].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[248].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:36.309000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[248].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[248].end |
2026-05-06T16:19:36.329000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[248].text |
好，謝謝，休息。 |
| transcript.gazette[248].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[249].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[249].start |
2026-05-06T16:19:36.329000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[249].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[249].end |
2026-05-06T16:22:15.799333+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[249].text |
休息（16時 19分）
繼續開會（16時 27分） |
| transcript.gazette[249].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[250].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[250].start |
2026-05-06T16:22:15.799333+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[250].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[250].end |
2026-05-06T16:24:55.269667+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[250].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部，因為今天軍購各方矚目，三個黨團的總召要求發言，先請台灣民眾黨黨
團陳總召發言，蔡總召請準備。 |
| transcript.gazette[250].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[251].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[251].start |
2026-05-06T16:24:55.269667+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[251].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[251].end |
2026-05-06T16:27:34.740000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[251].text |
請陳總召發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[251].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[252].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[252].start |
2026-05-06T16:27:34.740000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[252].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[252].end |
2026-05-06T16:27:34.800000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[252].text |
謝謝院長。 |
| transcript.gazette[252].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[253].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[253].start |
2026-05-06T16:27:34.800000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[253].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[253].end |
2026-05-06T16:28:13.241000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[253].text |
我想買最好的武器、最好的設備、最新的武器給我們的軍人使用，強化我
們的國防，這個真的是不變的。 |
| transcript.gazette[253].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[254].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[254].start |
2026-05-06T16:28:15.122000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[254].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[254].end |
2026-05-06T16:28:58.733000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[254].text |
剛剛莊瑞雄委員說不要砍他的手，不要砍左手、右手，不要砍
一根指頭，我們的國防絕對不能砍，但是我上個禮拜在協商會場已經有表明，在第一階段軍購
協 13
裡面，國防部對 M109A7 自走砲的金額需求，初一、十五不一樣，一開始今年 3 月跟我們黨團
講金額要 1,375 億，4 月份變成只要 810 億，結果在 4 月底的電子採購網決標金額只剩下 738 億
。 |
| transcript.gazette[254].quality |
0.891 |
| transcript.gazette[255].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[255].start |
2026-05-06T16:28:58.733000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[255].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[255].end |
2026-05-06T16:29:41.280000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[255].text |
我再重複一次，不到一個月的時間，所提出的金額可以從 1,375 億變成最後的 738 億，當然，
上個禮拜戰規司司長也有說明，說知會美國國會是什麼金額，發價書是什麼金額，都已經說明
過了。 |
| transcript.gazette[255].quality |
0.808 |
| transcript.gazette[256].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[256].start |
2026-05-06T16:29:41.280000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[256].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[256].end |
2026-05-06T16:30:19.447000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[256].text |
但是這個金額我相信不只我們立法委員，全國國人同胞也會覺得同樣一個軍購預算數字
，一個月之內可以相差 600 億，1.25 兆作為行政院、國防部包括民進黨黨團一直在主張的天花
板，絕對不能動，請教光一個項目就差 600億，你的 1.25兆怎麼不能動？ |
| transcript.gazette[256].quality |
0.969 |
| transcript.gazette[257].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[257].start |
2026-05-06T16:30:19.447000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[257].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[257].end |
2026-05-06T16:31:04.091000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[257].text |
第二個，在所謂的軍購、商購及委製部分，國防部也好，民進黨黨團也好，好像一直忽略包
括台灣民眾黨、包括國民黨一直在主張的，我們支持國防預算，商購、委製部分可以在我們的
年度公務預算編列，但是在這個過程當中，國防部好像把公務預算每年能夠編列的預算統統忽
略掉了，他們心裡好像就只有特別預算。 |
| transcript.gazette[257].quality |
0.898 |
| transcript.gazette[258].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[258].start |
2026-05-06T16:31:06.253000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[258].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[258].end |
2026-05-06T16:31:46.615000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[258].text |
特別條例是 8 年的預算，針對委製和商購部分，舉例
來講，第五項 AI 輔助 C5ISR 人工智慧決策系統，國防部要的金額是 90 億，分 8 年編列，1 年
十多億；分 2 年編列，1 年 45 億，怎麼會在一般公務預算沒辦法編列，一定要用特別預算？ |
| transcript.gazette[258].quality |
0.885 |
| transcript.gazette[259].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[259].start |
2026-05-06T16:31:47.756000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[259].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[259].end |
2026-05-06T16:32:01.048000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[259].text |
我
們都知道重要，部長也講了，我們都知道每一個防衛通通都是必要，我們都接受、我們都 OK，
但是為什麼把一般的公務預算通通忘掉了？ |
| transcript.gazette[259].quality |
0.804 |
| transcript.gazette[260].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[260].start |
2026-05-06T16:32:01.808000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[260].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[260].end |
2026-05-06T16:32:29.113000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[260].text |
另外，在商購的部分，要買 20 萬 8,000 架的無人機，我們也知道現在的戰場，從烏克蘭的戰
爭、從美國對伊朗的戰爭，無人機非常重要，我們也認同，但是我們現在要一次買 20 萬架以上
，用商購的方式來處理。 |
| transcript.gazette[260].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[261].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[261].start |
2026-05-06T16:32:29.973000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[261].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[261].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:32.446000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[261].text |
我想大家都了解，無人機就像 3C 電子產品一樣，它的迭代更新非常快
，我也認同不管在商購或技術的移轉，無人機就是我們的重要產業，這我們都認同，但是用商
購一次就買 20 萬架，就像過去講的，如果 2027 中共要攻臺，買 20 萬架今天就要決定了，不然
2027 會來不及，但是如果美國又講，2027 不是中共會攻臺，一次買 20 萬架，在三年後、五年
後、八年後，這 20萬架的無人機會不會變成過時、要淘汰的無人機？ |
| transcript.gazette[261].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[262].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[262].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:33.246000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[262].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[262].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:42.409000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[262].text |
我在這邊舉例就是今天我要向國防部、向民進黨黨團表明，1.25 兆真的不能動嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[262].quality |
0.969 |
| transcript.gazette[263].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[263].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:42.409000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[263].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[263].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:42.990000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[263].text |
真的不能
動嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[263].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[264].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[264].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:42.990000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[264].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[264].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:45.011000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[264].text |
像我剛剛講的，才一個月單一項目金額的差距就有 600 億，真的不能調整、不能動嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[264].quality |
0.781 |
| transcript.gazette[265].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[265].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:45.011000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[265].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[265].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:45.752000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[265].text |
天花板就是不能動嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[265].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[266].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[266].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:45.872000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[266].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[266].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:46.072000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[266].text |
謝謝陳總召的發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[266].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[267].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[267].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:46.232000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[267].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[267].end |
2026-05-06T16:33:46.292000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[267].text |
顧部長請。 |
| transcript.gazette[267].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[268].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[268].start |
2026-05-06T16:33:46.292000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[268].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[268].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:08.936000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[268].text |
我想先請民眾黨看一下你們自己擬的第四條，你們要不要看一下你們的第四條？ |
| transcript.gazette[268].quality |
0.97 |
| transcript.gazette[269].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[269].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:08.936000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[269].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[269].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:14.318000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[269].text |
你們
第四條M109A7自走砲列的是多少錢？ |
| transcript.gazette[269].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[270].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[270].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:14.318000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[270].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[270].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:16.819000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[270].text |
那是配合第一次你們的金額啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[270].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[271].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[271].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:17.359000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[271].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[271].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:20.601000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[271].text |
不是、不是，您的 1,267億，您知道這個金額是哪裡來的嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[271].quality |
0.762 |
| transcript.gazette[272].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[272].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:20.601000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[272].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[272].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:26.700000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[272].text |
是知會國會的金額。對啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[272].quality |
0.7 |
| transcript.gazette[273].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[273].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:26.700000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[273].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[273].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:36.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[273].text |
對，那麼海馬士的 1,276 億也是你們編的，就直接把金額寫在上面，也是知會國會的
金額，這是你們寫的，不是我們寫的…… |
| transcript.gazette[273].quality |
0.891 |
| transcript.gazette[274].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[274].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:36.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[274].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[274].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:37.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[274].text |
好，部長……
協 14 |
| transcript.gazette[274].quality |
0.25 |
| transcript.gazette[275].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[275].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:36.747000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[275].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[275].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:37.647000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[275].text |
你聽我講完…… |
| transcript.gazette[275].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[276].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[276].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:37.647000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[276].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[276].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:38.647000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[276].text |
我們要讓這個東西很簡單…… |
| transcript.gazette[276].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[277].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[277].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:37.647000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[277].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[277].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:39.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[277].text |
你要聽我講完、你要聽我講完…… |
| transcript.gazette[277].quality |
0.917 |
| transcript.gazette[278].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[278].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:39.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[278].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[278].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:40.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[278].text |
就代表金額可以動啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[278].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[279].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[279].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:40.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[279].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[279].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:41.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[279].text |
我剛剛都有聽你講完，你也要聽我講一下…… |
| transcript.gazette[279].quality |
0.118 |
| transcript.gazette[280].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[280].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:41.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[280].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[280].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:42.268000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[280].text |
那就 1.25兆可以動啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[280].quality |
0.125 |
| transcript.gazette[281].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[281].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:39.589000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[281].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[281].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:40.809000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[281].text |
我現在在說明，發價書來了，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[281].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[282].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[282].start |
2026-05-06T16:34:49.735000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[282].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[282].end |
2026-05-06T16:34:52.158000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[282].text |
他按照發價書的金額，這兩個金額都產生了劇
烈的變動，一個是 810 億，另一個海馬士漲到了 1,600 億。 |
| transcript.gazette[282].quality |
0.921 |
| transcript.gazette[283].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[283].start |
2026-05-06T16:35:05.913000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[283].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[283].end |
2026-05-06T16:35:10.294000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[283].text |
第一個，我要說明不是我們在浮編，
這是第一件事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[283].quality |
0.952 |
| transcript.gazette[284].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[284].start |
2026-05-06T16:35:10.574000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[284].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[284].end |
2026-05-06T16:35:52.052000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[284].text |
第二件事情，1 兆 2,500 億是一個天花板的數字，但是我們的第四條是我們的
能力建構，因此每一個項目在知會國會會有一個金額，發價書來會有一個金額，甚至以後美方
跟這些公司正式議約之後還會有一個金額，所以這些金額本身確實不是一個確切的金額，這就
是第一點要說明的，你們當時把金額寫在這裡面，這個立法的技術絕對是不可行的，你們當時
將知會國會的金額寫在這裡面就是不對的，這是第一點。 |
| transcript.gazette[284].quality |
0.922 |
| transcript.gazette[285].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[285].start |
2026-05-06T16:35:52.052000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[285].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[285].end |
2026-05-06T16:36:14.830000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[285].text |
第二點，所有的金額計算都是一個估
算的金額，1 兆 2,500 億這個金額是經過估算的，接下來你們一直在講的可能未來的軍購案數字
是多少，因為現在還沒有完成知會國會程序，在知會國會程序之後，還會有發價書進來，在發
價書進來之後，最後還有議約的金額。 |
| transcript.gazette[285].quality |
0.904 |
| transcript.gazette[286].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[286].start |
2026-05-06T16:36:14.830000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[286].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[286].end |
2026-05-06T16:36:33.922000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[286].text |
所以我們在講的是，我們大概就是從軍購、委製、商購，甚至還有臺美共同研發及採購部分
，我們大致上估算出 1 兆 2,500 億這個金額出來。 |
| transcript.gazette[286].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[287].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[287].start |
2026-05-06T16:36:34.082000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[287].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[287].end |
2026-05-06T16:36:48.732000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[287].text |
我們說明的是，這是一個整體的規劃案，你現
在拿一個個別的金額，那我會問，1,267 億當時是知會國會的金額，現在是降了，但是海馬士的
金額漲了，怎麼不提呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[287].quality |
0.905 |
| transcript.gazette[288].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[288].start |
2026-05-06T16:36:56.458000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[288].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[288].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:10.501000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[288].text |
海馬士 1,276 億，現在漲到 1,600 億，我的意思就是，大家在講這件事
情的時候，不要隨意地去誣衊我們做什麼胡編的動作，這是第一點。 |
| transcript.gazette[288].quality |
0.882 |
| transcript.gazette[289].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[289].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:10.501000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[289].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[289].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:17.922000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[289].text |
第二點，1 兆 2,500 億是概
估的金額，是預算的上限，每一個案子都還要等到預算書送進來，還要就每個預算再給你們審
嘛。 |
| transcript.gazette[289].quality |
0.957 |
| transcript.gazette[290].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[290].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:17.922000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[290].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[290].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:20.632500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[290].text |
好，顧部長，謝謝，你講得非常清楚了。 |
| transcript.gazette[290].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[291].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[291].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:20.632500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[291].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[291].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:23.343000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[291].text |
陳總召您稍等一下，蔡總召請發言，傅總召請準備。 |
| transcript.gazette[291].quality |
0.25 |
| transcript.gazette[292].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[292].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:23.343000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[292].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[292].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:23.663000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[292].text |
不讓他們兩個繼續辯論嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[292].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[293].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[293].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:23.663000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[293].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[293].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:28.345000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[293].text |
我是這樣覺得啦，都已經到這個階段了，其實這些辯論我不知道已經聽過多少遍，我
相信外交及國防委員會的同仁們應該聽更多遍了。 |
| transcript.gazette[293].quality |
0.945 |
| transcript.gazette[294].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[294].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:52.049000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[294].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[294].end |
2026-05-06T16:37:59.892000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[294].text |
我覺得剛剛顧部長急著要跟清龍委員解釋，
你可以反對，但不要說他亂編。 |
| transcript.gazette[294].quality |
0.733 |
| transcript.gazette[295].speaker |
陳委員清龍 |
| transcript.gazette[295].start |
2026-05-06T16:37:59.892000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[295].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[295].end |
2026-05-06T16:38:01.953000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[295].text |
我沒有說他亂編。 |
| transcript.gazette[295].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[296].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[296].start |
2026-05-06T16:38:01.953000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[296].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[296].end |
2026-05-06T16:38:06.535000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[296].text |
你的邏輯是說，為什麼他的金額可以變來變去，哪有人這樣編的，一次差好幾百億，
你就是在挑戰他編的這筆錢，說他這個 1.25 兆未來可能差很多。 |
| transcript.gazette[296].quality |
0.724 |
| transcript.gazette[297].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[297].start |
2026-05-06T16:38:15.360000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[297].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[297].end |
2026-05-06T16:38:16.260000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[297].text |
我的意思是說，關於為什麼差
500 億，已經解釋給你聽了，就是已經說很多次了，我不是要跟你辯論啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[297].quality |
0.769 |
| transcript.gazette[298].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[298].start |
2026-05-06T16:38:16.280000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[298].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[298].end |
2026-05-06T16:38:20.382000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[298].text |
如果我發言時再湊下
協 15
去辯論就沒意思了，我只是要跟你解釋，我們不要用這種態度，你又要重新再挑戰他，說他胡
亂編預算等等，因為他上一次也解釋過了。 |
| transcript.gazette[298].quality |
0.812 |
| transcript.gazette[299].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[299].start |
2026-05-06T16:38:38.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[299].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[299].end |
2026-05-06T16:38:51.543000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[299].text |
在美方的軍售裡面，從國會通過的，到發價書，到
最後結算，其實都是不一樣的，他已經先跟你講了，而且上一次我坐在這裡，我也聽到了。 |
| transcript.gazette[299].quality |
0.944 |
| transcript.gazette[300].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[300].start |
2026-05-06T16:38:52.224000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[300].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[300].end |
2026-05-06T16:39:00.806000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[300].text |
所
以我的意思是，最後大家都已經協商到這裡了，但又要回過頭來，又要來做這個辯論，我是覺
得這樣很沒有意思啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[300].quality |
0.979 |
| transcript.gazette[301].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[301].start |
2026-05-06T16:39:01.687000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[301].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[301].end |
2026-05-06T16:39:08.329000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[301].text |
所以我只是提醒，你再說這個就沒意思了，因為這都已經在這裡解釋過
了，在委員會也都解釋過了。 |
| transcript.gazette[301].quality |
0.95 |
| transcript.gazette[302].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[302].start |
2026-05-06T16:39:09.349000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[302].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[302].end |
2026-05-06T16:39:40.629000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[302].text |
所以 1.25 兆未來它是上限，這個是條例啦，1.25 兆如果大家都同意，你第四條的項目應該全
放進去嘛，可是大家實際在討論的時候，看起來今天也沒辦法達成在國防部這個版本裡面把所
有的項目都列進去、然後 1.25 兆等到審預算的時候再來做調整的共識，這是不可能的，在剛剛
的協商你們大概就只能同意有發價書的部分。 |
| transcript.gazette[302].quality |
0.854 |
| transcript.gazette[303].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[303].start |
2026-05-06T16:39:41.530000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[303].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[303].end |
2026-05-06T16:39:50.115000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[303].text |
所以回過頭來，我還是覺得很可惜，經過這樣的
討論，其實大家應該朝向有共識的方向。 |
| transcript.gazette[303].quality |
0.829 |
| transcript.gazette[304].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[304].start |
2026-05-06T16:39:52.336000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[304].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[304].end |
2026-05-06T16:39:52.757000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[304].text |
為什麼要 1.25 兆？ |
| transcript.gazette[304].quality |
0.5 |
| transcript.gazette[305].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[305].start |
2026-05-06T16:39:52.757000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[305].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[305].end |
2026-05-06T16:40:11.733000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[305].text |
我想國防部已經多次解釋，為什麼
保護臺灣需要這些基本的配備，我們要發展國防產業，這裡面其中還有一項是我們中南部，包
括清龍委員你的轄區所在，中南部有很多精密加工，他們可以投入國防工業、國防產業的部分
。 |
| transcript.gazette[305].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[306].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[306].start |
2026-05-06T16:40:12.313000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[306].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[306].end |
2026-05-06T16:40:26.584000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[306].text |
如果最後這個部分我們在條例直接把 1.25 兆砍成 8,000 億，這樣就喪失了臺灣發展國防工業
的可能性，我是覺得很可惜。 |
| transcript.gazette[306].quality |
0.872 |
| transcript.gazette[307].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[307].start |
2026-05-06T16:40:27.244000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[307].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[307].end |
2026-05-06T16:41:00.522000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[307].text |
最後我還是要講，在我們民進黨的立場上，剛剛我講過，輕重緩急，我知道這句話的意思，
但是在我的認知上，我覺得 1.25 兆都是重要的，關於為什麼不能放在一般預算裡面，我想國防
部也解釋過，在年度預算裡面可以編的，他都編了，這樣的金額也不可能放在年度預算裡面，
所以我們會用特別預算來處理，就是希望保衛臺灣的安全，其實應該是不分藍綠白大家一起來
做的。 |
| transcript.gazette[307].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[308].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[308].start |
2026-05-06T16:41:01.042000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[308].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[308].end |
2026-05-06T16:41:10.089000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[308].text |
而在保護臺灣安全的過程當中，我們可以國防自主、國防韌性，我們可以發展國防工業
，我覺得對臺灣其實都是很好的事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[308].quality |
0.94 |
| transcript.gazette[309].speaker |
蔡委員其昌 |
| transcript.gazette[309].start |
2026-05-06T16:41:10.870000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[309].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[309].end |
2026-05-06T16:41:50.892000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[309].text |
最重要的，我要講的是，時間很緊迫，包括美國相關的
這些事情，我們在媒體上都看到了，都有時間上的壓力，所以我們另外的一個期待，除了希望
朝野各政黨支持 1.25 兆之外，我們更希望能夠在速度上有所要求，而且院長馬上就要出國去做
國會訪問，所以我們會比較希望大家是不是能夠儘速有一個結論，然後快速地來通過這樣的一
個條例，因為在條例通過之後還有預算要審查，所以這個是拜託，也是我們的主張，謝謝大家
。 |
| transcript.gazette[309].quality |
0.924 |
| transcript.gazette[310].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[310].start |
2026-05-06T16:41:52.072000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[310].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[310].end |
2026-05-06T16:41:52.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[310].text |
謝謝蔡總召。 |
| transcript.gazette[310].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[311].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[311].start |
2026-05-06T16:41:53.833000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[311].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[311].end |
2026-05-06T16:41:55.593000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[311].text |
接下來國民黨傅總召，請發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[311].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[312].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[312].start |
2026-05-06T16:41:59.454000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[312].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[312].end |
2026-05-06T16:42:21.778000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[312].text |
今天各黨在這裡做最後一次軍購案的朝野協商，我想不管是哪一個政黨，對於充實中
華民國的國防來守衛臺灣，大家的立場是一致的，大家立場是一致的，只要能堅實臺灣的國防
，我們都支持。 |
| transcript.gazette[312].quality |
0.885 |
| transcript.gazette[313].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[313].start |
2026-05-06T16:42:23.469000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[313].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[313].end |
2026-05-06T16:42:26.490000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[313].text |
但是今天為什麼會有這麼多意見的複雜性？ |
| transcript.gazette[313].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[314].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[314].start |
2026-05-06T16:42:27.230000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[314].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[314].end |
2026-05-06T16:42:37.374000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[314].text |
包括顧部長也忘記了，他今天是部
長，他不是顧大律師，在這裡對立委提出這麼強烈的說明！ |
| transcript.gazette[314].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[315].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[315].start |
2026-05-06T16:42:38.674000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[315].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[315].end |
2026-05-06T16:42:52.741000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[315].text |
但是我要說，就是因為今天的爭執正凸顯了一個最主要的問題，國防部所持的立場為什麼跟
在野黨會不一樣？ |
| transcript.gazette[315].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[316].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[316].start |
2026-05-06T16:42:52.741000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[316].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[316].end |
2026-05-06T16:43:02.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[316].text |
在野黨不斷強調就是要有發價書，如果有發價書，會有今天的爭執、會有金
額的差異嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[316].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[317].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[317].start |
2026-05-06T16:43:02.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[317].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[317].end |
2026-05-06T16:43:03.486000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[317].text |
就不會有這些問題嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[317].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[318].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[318].start |
2026-05-06T16:43:06.207000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[318].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[318].end |
2026-05-06T16:43:10.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[318].text |
所以到底是不是空白授權？ |
| transcript.gazette[318].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[319].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[319].start |
2026-05-06T16:43:10.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[319].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[319].end |
2026-05-06T16:43:13.490000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[319].text |
到底是不是臆測性的來授權？ |
| transcript.gazette[319].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[320].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[320].start |
2026-05-06T16:43:13.490000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[320].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[320].end |
2026-05-06T16:43:40.619000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[320].text |
協 16
我們回到今天的本質，第一個原則，國民黨對於對美軍購、對美的軍事採購，這是一個負責任
性的採購，包括後續的延壽維修、零件的更換等等，得到美國政府保證、美國總統簽署，對這
個部分我們是支持的，而且我們是強烈的支持。 |
| transcript.gazette[320].quality |
0.968 |
| transcript.gazette[321].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[321].start |
2026-05-06T16:43:42.321000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[321].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[321].end |
2026-05-06T16:43:58.265000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[321].text |
國民黨保護臺灣，過去八十年所有對外守護臺
灣的戰爭、真槍實彈上戰場都是國民黨打的，而且都打贏了，都是國民黨在守護著臺灣。 |
| transcript.gazette[321].quality |
0.963 |
| transcript.gazette[322].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[322].start |
2026-05-06T16:43:58.505000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[322].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[322].end |
2026-05-06T16:44:02.587000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[322].text |
今天
我們坐在這裡談的是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[322].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[323].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[323].start |
2026-05-06T16:44:02.587000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[323].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[323].end |
2026-05-06T16:44:08.769000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[323].text |
就是特別預算，各位，我再特別強調一次，我們今天為什麼坐在這
裡討論？ |
| transcript.gazette[323].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[324].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[324].start |
2026-05-06T16:44:08.909000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[324].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[324].end |
2026-05-06T16:44:15.432000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[324].text |
因為這是特別預算，但是這個特別預算是不是真的有這麼強大的急迫性？ |
| transcript.gazette[324].quality |
0.7 |
| transcript.gazette[325].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[325].start |
2026-05-06T16:44:18.593000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[325].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[325].end |
2026-05-06T16:44:51.812000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[325].text |
如果誠如賴總統所說，2027 年臺海會發生戰爭，2027 年就是明年，就因為如此，我們大家坐
在這裡協商，要用緊急的特別預算，但是滿有意思的，包括執政黨跟國防部都認為緊急預算的
採購要 8 年才能到位，還要 8 年才到位，就不是為了因應 2027 年臺海馬上要有戰爭這麼迫切的
需要。 |
| transcript.gazette[325].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[326].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[326].start |
2026-05-06T16:44:51.952000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[326].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[326].end |
2026-05-06T16:45:13.724000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[326].text |
如果臺海馬上要有戰爭，我們同意用特別預算，我想也不只 1.25 兆啦，雖然我還沒有得
到授權講這句話，但是如果執政黨堅持 1.25 兆，那請問我們執行的年限是不是 1 年？ |
| transcript.gazette[326].quality |
0.909 |
| transcript.gazette[327].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[327].start |
2026-05-06T16:45:14.525000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[327].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[327].end |
2026-05-06T16:45:26.821000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[327].text |
這個特別
預算就是明年所有武器都要到位，以因應賴總統所說的明年臺海有迫切的危機，如果是這樣的
話，我們大家可以坐下來好好談。 |
| transcript.gazette[327].quality |
0.893 |
| transcript.gazette[328].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[328].start |
2026-05-06T16:45:28.433000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[328].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[328].end |
2026-05-06T16:45:57.092000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[328].text |
至於其他的部分，我想年度預算，尤其今年 9,495 億、將近 1
兆的年度預算，其實國防部、執政黨對這個部分可以好好的看這 1 兆元要怎麼使用，請審慎的
來規劃要怎麼樣來使用國防預算。 |
| transcript.gazette[328].quality |
0.792 |
| transcript.gazette[329].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[329].start |
2026-05-06T16:45:59.692000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[329].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[329].end |
2026-05-06T16:46:47.516000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[329].text |
最後也謝謝大家，因為在這 4 次的協商過程當中其實有很多意見的表達，真理是越辯越明、
越講越清楚，但是我還是有一個疑問，因為到今天為止，執政黨跟國防部還是沒有明確的告訴
所有的國人，當每一次國防預算都用這麼迫切的程序，要求立法院各政黨授權給國防部來做緊
急採購，那為什麼在採購以後，我們還有用臺幣 7,000 億預算所購買的國防武器到現在還沒有到
位？ |
| transcript.gazette[329].quality |
0.921 |
| transcript.gazette[330].speaker |
傅委員崐萁 |
| transcript.gazette[330].start |
2026-05-06T16:46:49.718000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[330].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[330].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:03.736000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[330].text |
這蠻奇怪的，就這個部分，國防部跟執政黨就這個部分應該要對全國國人解惑、釋疑，還
是要讓大家了解，我想國民黨最後再次強調，我們全力的支持對美軍購。 |
| transcript.gazette[330].quality |
0.688 |
| transcript.gazette[331].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[331].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:05.892000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[331].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[331].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:06.153000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[331].text |
謝謝傅總召。 |
| transcript.gazette[331].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[332].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[332].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:06.313000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[332].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[332].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:26.928000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[332].text |
我們今天已經是第 4次朝野協商，非常感謝顧部長還有各相關部會列席的官員
，也要特別感謝非黨團幹部一直踴躍來參加，包括民進黨的陳冠廷委員、國民黨的牛煦庭委員
、黃建賓委員、羅智強委員、徐巧芯委員、陳永康委員、馬文君委員，非常感謝大家都踴躍地
出席。 |
| transcript.gazette[332].quality |
0.916 |
| transcript.gazette[333].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[333].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:28.249000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[333].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[333].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:37.463000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[333].text |
經過 4 次協商，大家也曉得風波不斷，我想黨團幹部也都非常地盡心盡力，國防部的官
員也都非常努力，很抱歉！ |
| transcript.gazette[333].quality |
0.932 |
| transcript.gazette[334].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[334].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:38.404000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[334].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[334].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:41.206000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[334].text |
各黨團還是沒辦法達成共識。 |
| transcript.gazette[334].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[335].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[335].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:41.206000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[335].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[335].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:50.371000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[335].text |
所以我現在作兩項宣告：一、本案由
於各黨團迄今未達成共識，我們依規定處理。 |
| transcript.gazette[335].quality |
0.844 |
| transcript.gazette[336].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[336].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:51.672000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[336].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[336].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:56.895000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[336].text |
二、我們現在散會。 |
| transcript.gazette[336].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[337].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[337].start |
2026-05-06T16:47:57.395000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[337].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[337].end |
2026-05-06T16:47:58.537857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[337].text |
散會（16時 47分） |
| transcript.gazette[337].quality |
0 |
| transcript.speakers[0].total_seconds |
575.64 |
| transcript.speakers[0].embed_id |
SPEAKER_00 |
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SPEAKER_01 |
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363.12 |
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SPEAKER_02 |
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SPEAKER_06 |
| transcript.speakers[2].embedding |
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| transcript.speakers[3].total_seconds |
393.83 |
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SPEAKER_04 |
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SPEAKER_08 |
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| transcript.speakers[4].total_seconds |
129.7 |
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SPEAKER_05 |
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SPEAKER_09 |
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| transcript.speakers[5].total_seconds |
172.23 |
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SPEAKER_06 |
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SPEAKER_10 |
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| transcript.speakers[6].total_seconds |
435.17 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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390.74 |
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SPEAKER_08 |
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SPEAKER_14 |
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| transcript.speakers[8].total_seconds |
180.85 |
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SPEAKER_09 |
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SPEAKER_13 |
| transcript.speakers[8].embedding |
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| transcript.speakers[9].total_seconds |
126.19 |
| transcript.speakers[9].embed_id |
SPEAKER_10 |
| transcript.speakers[9].speaker |
SPEAKER_12 |
| transcript.speakers[9].embedding |
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| transcript.speakers[10].total_seconds |
458.58 |
| transcript.speakers[10].embed_id |
SPEAKER_11 |
| transcript.speakers[10].speaker |
SPEAKER_02 |
| transcript.speakers[10].embedding |
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| transcript.speakers[11].total_seconds |
435.16 |
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SPEAKER_12 |
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SPEAKER_04 |
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| transcript.speakers[12].total_seconds |
36.59 |
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SPEAKER_13 |
| transcript.speakers[12].speaker |
SPEAKER_03 |
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| transcript.speakers[13].total_seconds |
244.33 |
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SPEAKER_14 |
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SPEAKER_05 |
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