| IVOD_ID |
17414 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17414 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-06T08:35:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-06T11:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:54:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce2c43aff6c47feb9a91284a5a3d0aa8b92d343e5acb26ceb8bc1c3c3614366f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。
二、審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。
【僅進行詢答；預算提案於5月13日下午2時截止收件】
【5月6日及7日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:32 - 11:30:00 |
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1495.035 |
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1509.141 |
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報告委員會出席委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開始開會來進行報告事項宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法治委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國110 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1512.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1539.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
一十五年五月四日星期一上午九十二分至十一時二十一分地點本院群閑樓九樓大禮堂出席委員陳昭資委員等十二人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等二人列席官員司法院秘書長高金之等人主席莊昭吉委員瑞雄報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項一審查一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分等二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1539.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1568.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
本次會議有委員陳昭資等九人提出質詢委員蔡其昌、林建啟提出書面質詢決議一 第一案及第二案報告及詢答完畢均另定其繼續審查二 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關尽速送交個別委員及本會三 審查會委員針對本次議程所列討論事項之預算提案請於五月十一日星期一下午二時前送交本會預時不予受理 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1570.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1593.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請問各位上次的會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏如果沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話我們議事錄就確定了接著我們來介紹到場的委員當然來這算引薪又怕病第一類最專業的成招之委員跟爸爸來 這很厲害還有我們現在變成川伯伯我們吳宗憲委員徐宇貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1598.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1614.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
今天去仁總,仁總人不太多,坐得這麼大,不如介紹一下來,我們政務副人事長張秋元副人事長公務人力發展學院院長陳明忠陳院長還有綜合規劃處處長李美惠理處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1620.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1649.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主編人力處處長 邱宜璋 邱處長培訓考用處處長 程雅玲 程處長給予福利處處長 程處長人事資訊處處長 曾怡君 曾處長秘書室主任 蔡富雄 蔡主任人事室主任 程怡君 程主任主計室主任 林秀柱 林主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1651.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1658.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
鄭豐市主任 余雅文余主任還有行政院主計總署公務預算處專委我們張正輝 張專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1664.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1682.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
來 意思是宣告一下啦 本次會議我們是兩天一次會那首日的一個議程裡面我們就排定討論事項兩岸審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事總署跟所屬主管跟收支的部分及中央公交人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1683.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1706.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
急難救助基金收支部分所以本日的會議我們就只進行詢答那特別提醒我們審查預算相關的提案請在5月13號下午2點截止收件預時我們就不受理了那請機關於之後的會議處理提案之前利用時間也跟提案的委員來進行溝通跟協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1707.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1721.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那以利於後續的預算的一個審查那我們現在就來進行機關報告現在就請我們行政院人事行政總處政務副人事長張秋元副人事長來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1731.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1736.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1746.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1772.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
感謝各位委員過去對人事總署各項業務的支持跟指教也給我們很多的提醒對我們的業務有很多的幫助在這裡代表人事總署感謝大家人事總署是統籌規劃行政院所屬中央跟地方各機關的人力資源管理的政策也配合國家的重點發展方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1773.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1782.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
策進人力資源管理的相關的措施建構優質的公務人才的團隊來提升政府的治理效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1783.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1810.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
以下僅就本總署115年的施政重點跟預算編列的情形來進行報告首先在整體的組織架構跟原則管理的部分我們配合國家政策來調整組織的架構未來我們會積極來協助個人資料保護委員會組織法的立法的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1812.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1826.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
並且協助衛生福利部這次的組織調整整合成立兒少及家庭支持署以及長期照顧及社會發展署另外在 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1828.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1841.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那個原額的管理上面我們會依照這個中央政府機關總原法的相關的規定進行第八次的這個總的一個原額評鑑的工作來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1844.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1858.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
行政院所屬的二級機關因應這一波的這個AI的浪潮來檢視所有的業務辦理的方式跟他相關工作的優化 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1862.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1877.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
也期待我們可以充分的來發揮政府的這個人力運用的整體的效益同時我們也鼓勵各機關以業務的特性來彈性的去選用它合適的人力類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1879.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1898.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
其次是在人才的培育的部分我們會持續辦理國家政務研究班跟高階領導研究班這兩個班次都有國外學習的部分我們也希望這些高階的關鍵職務的同仁能夠吸取先進國家的經驗結合理論跟實務加速國內的各項政策能夠跟國際接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1906.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1928.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
另外也強化工人的這個AI知識的應用技術我們會規劃辦理AI應用的趨勢跟實作以及這個AI的實務見學等等實作導向的課程積極來培育各政府部門AI推動的種子人才那希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1931.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1943.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
來減輕我們所有同仁的這個工作負荷用一個新的技術新的工具的導入讓這個工作的負荷量能夠有所改善那 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1948.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1969.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
另外在友善公務職場的環境的部分我們會持續檢討各項公務人員的待遇也定期檢視各機關的勤修制度維護我們公務同仁的身心健康以及提升公務職場的性別友善度持續來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1971.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1998.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
公教人員育嬰留子停薪的津貼加發補助的措施並且從今年1月1號開始我們擴大生育補助的政策生育補助的這個差額補助每胎都會達到10萬元就是公保不足的部分我們用公預算來補足這個部分也感謝大院委員的大力支持之前已經有過討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2003.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2014.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那以下就是我們115年度的這個預算編列稅入編列3962萬8000元比上個年度是增加了52萬元那稅出的部分編列27億5251萬元比上個年度增加1億4925萬元另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2025.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2054.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
中央公教人員急難救助金的部分我們115年的收入是編列628萬元支出是105萬4千元那這個部分是在辦理限職公教人員的急難救助的貸款項目那這個內容會包括傷病醫護傷障災害育嬰跟產後護理跟長照那以上報告敬請各位員繼續支持總署的工作在此也謝謝各位員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2055.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2055.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2058.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2086.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 機關報告發言完畢相關的書面內容我們請各位來做參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始要來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時可以延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那我們上午10點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位吳宗憲委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2098.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2123.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝主席 我們麻煩副人次長請副人次長副人好副人長早安我們就直接來談論我想就是任總在這一次那個公聽會他有提過一些意見他一再強調說政務人員是依據政治任命 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2123.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2147.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
負有高度的政治責任所以他的性質跟一般的文官不太一樣所以他認為說考試院認為說政務人員不應該由他們管但是我想請教一下到現在為止跟權序部一致認為說屬於行政體系的政務官相關政務官行政中立的規範不應該歸考試院管理對或錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2148.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2174.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是或不是也可以啊你不用解釋是或不是就是不該歸考試院管理是或不是這個我跟委員報告啦就是我們過去其實也做過很多的表達這個當然是立法是大院的職權所以我們總署會尊重我們直接講是或不是好不好尊重一下立法院那是或不是就是不應該給考試院管理是或不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2175.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2196.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們會覺得說這個還是立法政策該歸誰管我們會尊重還是沒有答案那我再問你這等於你沒有回答我那第二個問題那個左翁泰帶領之下的政務官有沒有符合行政中立也是要讓行政院來負責解釋不是考試院對或不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2197.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2227.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
行政中立的解釋以目前的行政中立法的權責主管機關是考試院那邊啦那當然不是啦 報告主席可不可以時間暫停一下你不能這樣 你都沒有回答問題主席 時間暫停一下啦我跟主席報告一下因為他一直沒有回答我的問題那我沒有辦法我不知道該怎麼辦咧沒關係啦 我不會給你回答 你的時間不用煩惱那我就 來啦 行政 政務官不是考試院負責是或不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2229.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2238.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
對方回答就算了 已經兩個問題了都沒有回答我所以不是歸考試院管 就是叫行政院自己管嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2240.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2266.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為考試院我沒辦法幫他回答考試院的立場啦那我們的立場就是法治上怎麼定要我們管我們就承擔如果要考試院管那我們會尊重好那等於沒有回答但是喔因為之前人事長就這個題目其實是沒有迴避的啦好那沒關係喔那就這樣那我們來看喔到底政務官有沒有行政中立在我們這個時代依照目前的權序部的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2268.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2295.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
其實變成是 就是行政院自主管理了啦好 那我們來講我們看待政府是怎麼樣自主管理的在之前風災的時候 81人的政治群組啊那個時候政務官在這個群組裡面在討論怎麼樣釋出巨殺傷力的簡訊來攻擊地方政府行政院的高層還回答說 收到了所以這個不是中央政府在救災啊是陪著在打選戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2297.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2300.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
然後不然呢 他就說用預算來勒索 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2301.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2327.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為行政院長公開的說如果不挺中央 我要如何支持地方的補助所以這都不是專業治國啊這根本就順我者有錢 逆我者就沒錢啦另外 大罷免期間中央政府的政務官連番的下鄉去宣講罷免的重要性 必要性那這個都不是行政中立該有的樣子那至於 這樣的狀況下呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2329.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2348.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
沒有人管全部交回去給行政院自主管理的下場就是沒有人管那更不要講各次的選舉期間這些中央級的官員到處下鄉輔選這個更是現在的一個常態好那我再請教一下政務官可以擔任中選會的委員嗎政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2356.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2378.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我想這個部分是沒有限制 就是政務官能不能當選 這是按照中選會組織法的規定我知道你們的回答一定是這個樣子啦但是我再跟你們說 行政法裡面有違法跟適當這兩個不同層次的東西 等一下我們再談到來我先跟你確認一下 政務官他是隨政黨還有政策成敗進退對行政院長官負責對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2382.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2406.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
中選會是依據法律規定應該超出黨派依法獨立行使職權對不對所以沒有錯嘛 但是呢政次他等於是依據行政院他是行政院政務團隊的一部分他是受行政院長來指揮的嘛他並不是一個獨立行使職權對不對所以這兩個東西基本上是會矛盾會衝突的啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2408.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2424.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
跟委員報告這兩個應該是說他在哪個職務上他就必須遵守哪個規範比如說他在那我可以早上當法官下午晚上下班兼任律師嗎所以你不能說我今天什麼職務就做什麼事吧這邏輯上有錯誤啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2426.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2450.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 那沒關係 你還是沒有辦法回答我們講一個 政務官就是聽行政院院長的命令中選會委員就是獨立超出黨派 這兩個東西其實完全的矛盾你們這樣混在一起 我其實 他們要混在一起我實在搞不太懂所以這次呢 法務部的政次黃謀信 他要兼任中選會的委員所以這個東西 這非常的奇怪政次什麼 林俊炎檢察官派主任還要經過他 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2452.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2469.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
然後他來這邊做一個超然獨立超越黨派的一個中選會的委員這其實讓我們覺得蠻不可思議的啦我不是說林俊元怎麼樣 而是你一下子在做司法官的工作或是決定的事情一下又跳去所謂的超出黨派 一下又是政務官這個其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2471.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2488.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
很多那個位置上面的混亂喔所以你想他身份上是法務部的政次辦公上呢 辦公室在法務部職權上又要去當獨立行使職權的中選會委員所以抓人的要直接坐進去辦選務其實這個人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2490.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2517.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
弄清楚以後會覺得蠻不可思議的而且獨立機關本來就要獨立他要跟內閣保持一定的距離但是你們今天他們今天混在一起我實在覺得有一點不可思議所以他今天他到底以一個正式的立場他到底他負責的對象是行政院還是他負責的對象是全體國人其實都混亂了角色完全混亂那這我要先跟你講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2518.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2535.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
當然行政院的發言人還跟全國人民說這個黃謀信沒有黨籍所以可以聲認他是中立的有沒有黨籍跟是不是中立是兩回事我想這個部分其實講這個是沒有意義的啦那其實我們的大前輩那個陳鴻達主任檢察官他其實講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2535.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2560.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他說在徐錫祥被提名檢查總長這件事情上面他說縱使本人自認專業客觀社會觀感還是常常會認為是有政治標籤其實這些事情對檢查制度都很大的影響我的意思是說我們今天黃萌信他是我的老師我對他也非常的尊敬但是把他的位置他的職務拿去變成獨立機關的委員其實這個部分是很奇怪那我也沒有辦法去理解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2561.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2576.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以這部分我要跟你們說明一下因為你始終講不出政務官應該歸誰管所以我還是跟你說明一下在很多立場上面其實是有很大的問題然後再回到我剛剛有跟您提到在行政法上面合法 釋法跟適當這兩個東西不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2578.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2600.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
不一樣層次的規定連行政法人都知道所以行政中立友不是只有有沒有違法這個東西他很多時候他還要考慮到程序上面他有沒有辦法讓一般人信服第二個外觀上面人民會不會質疑當這兩個東西你執政上面完全不當一回事覺得我沒有違法我愛怎麼做就怎麼做其實人民會一直質疑這個政府到底在怎麼施政啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2601.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2620.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
不過當然回過頭來啦今天我們面對的這個行政院是連三讀通過的法律都敢不執行其實這些對他而言是可能他覺得這小事情我不當一回事很多事情今天發生在台灣我們念法律的一般的民主國家連想都不敢想的事情在我們這裡直接幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2621.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2642.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以事先中可以不用去執行法律三族通過法律 行政院不想做就不執行這其實都不可思議你如果有念過法律 行政法 憲法相關制度你一定念過我想你心裡也許會對這個質疑啦我覺得這個以後都會被後世來批判現在的行政院長這種荒謬不要臉的作為好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2644.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2668.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
來我們希望人總這邊能夠一個月內提出一些比較的東西就是你們去看一下那個美國日本德國法國這四國檢察官跟政務官這個旋轉門的規定因為這個都有我們都已經查過了麻煩你們再去做一下比較法的研究好那這樣我再請然後我再請教你一個問題像譬如說政治他現在要兼任中選會的委員那這個工作時間要怎麼算 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2669.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2680.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
他在法務部他要去中選會開會那他是要請假還是他也是上班時間那是不是都要留下會議紀錄要不要打卡等等我不知道那你們有沒有思考過這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2682.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2697.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
跟委員報告剛才幾個問題我一定做回答政務官雖然不是刑務中心法的適用對象但他還是不能利用公家資源來做相關的那他是法務部的政次那跑去中選會開會那算什麼出差請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2700.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2719.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
公出對 中選會的部分其實我跟委員報告這個委員當然是在法治上有提高不良尊重不是啦 你還是一直不回答我問題我尊重委員的觀點但是過去是法務部 內政部其實都有正式兼任中選會委員的案例那過去其實這個案在執行上 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2721.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2745.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
也是說是在擱置他該有的職務的分際不是你還是沒有回答問題奇怪我問A你答B我只問說他上班期間從保護部出去到中選會去開會那是供出還是請假他會供出因為他就是一個所以這就是職務上面的很嚴重的矛盾啊政務官下班後去從事政治行為這大家可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2745.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2763.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
但是他是上班時間政務官跑去中選會獨立機關去上班這個東西其實制度上面很瘋狂我覺得台灣越來越多制度越來越瘋狂其實都有一定的規範這是新的規定我要提一個就是說因為這部分雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2765.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2782.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我要提一個東西啦最近啦 其實我們司法跟選舉這個界線一旦糊掉人民信任真的會一直一直的喪失啦那你看 把一個檢查體系的大家長證刺然後丟去一個中選會其實這個真的很不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2782.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2803.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那信任兩個字本來就是民主法治最珍貴的東西但是法務部在這幾年我們看到一步一步的往政治去靠攏這其實很難過那我這次的執行稿我們同事我們辦公室同事很多念法律的看到他們說心裡很有感他們說戳中了幾個重要點第一個司法行政的界線已經完全模糊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2804.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2822.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
第二個選務獨立的界線也模糊了我們竟然要派一個政策去選務機關第三個科技偵查監督的界線也都模糊了所以很多時候並不能像你們給我們的報告一樣相信某某人的人格操守就可以打發因為民主國家需要的是制度而不是相信某一個人的人格 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2823.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2839.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
如果人格相近就好了那萬一十個人裡面有一個人出現人格問題的話那不是整個國家就毀了所以制度還是很重要啦還有一個政務人員法其實已經躺了二十幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2840.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2865.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以在我們國家現在政務人員行政總理完全沒有人管也沒有任何法治管所以我們現在對基層的公務員用的是法律可以去辦他違反行政總理但對政務人員完全無法可管那20幾年前考試院就曾經推動過相關法律的立法2018年也再送過一次但是呢到今天20幾年過去了完全沒有任何動作沒有任何進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2865.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2892.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
也就是這樣 所以現在的政務官還是持續的介入學籍以及政治這也是為什麼我一直堅持要推動政務人員行為法因為公務員領納稅錢是要為人民做事不是為民進黨做事為什麼堅持推動這個 我告訴你我希望的第一個 不要求人兼裁判所以政務官本來就不應該去兼任獨立機關的委員第二個 不要互踢皮球 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2893.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2915.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
有考試院統一管轄不要讓行政院自己查自己自我管理那個是沒有任何意義的我們遇到現在的行政院長三讀通過後的法律都可以他都不想執行了說不執行就不執行我怎麼能期待這樣的人格人格者他會去真的有效的去管理這些政務官維持行政的中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2917.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2941.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我想我們那個陳瑞仁大學長他曾經在司改會小英他所那個帶領的司改會上面他曾經提過他如果檢察官都變成行政官的話大家難以想像會有多可怕因為行政院長可以命令檢察官起訴或不起訴然後總統可以請檢察總長來報告案情檢察官變行政官就會變成今天這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2946.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2966.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
就會變成是總統行政院長就直接命令這個案子起訴或不起訴 世界國家就大亂了檢察官一直在那邊爭取自己要有司法官資格這幾年國家也是一直繼續保有他司法官資格但是檢察體系的長官就一步一步的往行政體系去靠攏這很不應該啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2968.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2990.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我覺得這種政檢旋轉門那種堅韌的亂象其實會讓公眾信任度一直流失啦這部分我要先跟您說明一下因為這種高層一直玩這種政檢兩期其實會讓大家都心灰意冷那你們最後一分鐘我跟你們講你們這是預算的部分我看了你們那個政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2992.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3011.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
審計部的報告 政府原額管理還有人力運用的情形你們已經提到了 總原額在五類五類原額中 第一類 第三類 第四類裡面已經高達了95%了 也就是說幾乎已經沒有人可以任用的空間了那這五年來我們看到了整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3012.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3039.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
政府機關約用、派用、派駐勞工的規模持續增加而且接近總元額數的一半所以這些約用、派用的人變成是行政機關的主要人力來源這個其實是一件很可怕的事因為我們整個結構都在變那這幾年來民進黨執政這幾年來我們現在變成什麼老師、公務員、警察這些越來越沒有人想要考 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3040.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3058.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
然後政府覺得一個蘿蔔一個坑我這個位置只要有人來做就可以了我重點還是要有選票因為一人一票不管你的狀況一人就是一票結果我們不停的去討好很多人就讓我們整個公務體系的狀況崩盤現在公務體系的狀況我想在座這麼多公務員應該了解現在的狀況是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3062.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3080.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
公務員越來越好考代表很多人才都不願意為國家效力這個是我對於這個國家的一個隱憂啦我們不能說把制度搞成是今天人才不願意來只要有這些約聘這些人來把洞補起來就好那我今天看到是是這樣那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3081.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3098.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我跟你講這個人力政策上面順序我認為是很嚴重的顛倒了我們現在該增加的是基層承辦跟地方一線的人力還有這些人才的吸引而不是一直增加增加增加這些政務官的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3100.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3119.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
最後我回到陳宏達主任說的那一句話他說他曾經講過一句話當檢察官不再是像司法官的時候人民就不會再把檢察權當作司法來信任了那你們其實一步一步的在摧毀檢察官在人民心中的信任度如果我們今天的賴政府還是繼續玩政 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3121.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3136.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
減兩期或是繼續用代理的檢察總長來繞過國會或繼續的把獨立機關當作民進黨人士的酬庸場這真的會流失人民對於這個政黨的信任好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3138.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3140.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3158.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3168.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這樣的狀況跟委員做一個補充 謝謝好 謝謝不過這個法務部的次長去去兼任這個這個中選會獨立機關聽起來邏輯是有點怪怪的是 我懂 我知道有案例啦但問題就是說還是有點怪怪的來 接下來陳昭之委員來做詢答謝謝主席 有請副人事長請副人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3190.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3191.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
副委員早剛剛其實吳委員講的話我是很有感現在我們這一群被執政黨列為不是自己人的我們都對他每一個問題有非常強烈的感觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3205.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3211.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
儘管我們過去是如何為這個台灣的民主打下基礎如何為執政黨的催生誕生以便於完成圓滿這個政黨政治的這個信念現在是有點像吳委員他不得不問的很多句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3220.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3240.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那副人事長這個我上週你應該知道全教總及各公務機關的公會剛會到行政院這個門口在抗議因為近期公務人才大量的流失那人事總署好像貴署好像也說會爭取這個專業家局的提升希望能夠藉此留住人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3240.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3250.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
但是這個好意跟現實是脫節的現實差距很大為什麼呢我舉個數字過去十年台灣人均GDP的成長率您知道是多少嗎高達過去十年高達93.2% |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3256.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3260.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
但是公教累積的待遇,累積的待遇卻只有14.7%偏離物價水準非常的遙遠如果你只調整所謂的專業家籍那恐怕你留任的,這久任的效果是有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3272.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3277.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所以全教總他們這個公務機關的工會、崗會他們的訴求這是他們的訴求116年度整體的調薪幅度他們認為應該至少是10%然後除了專業佳績之外他們還希望有學術研究佳績同步調升也許到20%那這個方向我們先不談那個數字請問富仁市長您支持這個方向嗎這個方向的改革嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3296.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3318.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
跟委員報告我們對於這個待遇的調整一向參照的都是經濟增長率平均國民所得跟消費者物價指數還有民間企業薪資水準然後當然還有政府的財政負擔還有公教團體的意見也是重要的部分那我們過去其實已經有跟大家報告我們現在過去 請你也簡短回答因為張昭偉可能不會對我這麼好 給我那麼多時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3322.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3327.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們都往這個方向就是希望能夠這個方向您是支持的嗎我們會聽到大家的聲音把這個相關的因素作為考量然後會詢總預算的這個程序會提出來給行政院建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3338.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3347.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
另外一項訴求也非常重要就是加班制度的正常化你可以看到這個表這個表你應該是很熟悉的根據勞基法一般勞工的加班費會根據加班的時數他用1.33 1.67倍率跟不同的時間這個反觀公務員因為他不是用勞基法嘛那加班費不僅沒有所謂的倍率去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3358.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3380.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
薪資計算的方法也跟勞工不太一樣因為勞工有明確的定義就是經常性的給付它就是工資的概念那導致公務員加班費並未能如實呈現他們的付出那我就以消防員為例他們經常性的給付領到的有一個叫危險加計但是這個不列入加班費的計算那我就要請問難道消防員加班的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3384.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3408.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
同時 他們的時候 他們的工作就不危險了嗎那個 副人市長 您的想法呢這邊很清楚啊 他不是用全心算的跟委員報告啦 那個整體的部分啦整體的部分 就是因為公跟教還是兩套不同的制度它整個就是完整的配套你認為這個差異存在是自然的 但是各領域都會有一些差異啦我今天會提 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3408.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3421.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
從薪資待遇加班到退休很大的原則會去相互的參照張昭偉你要離開你要跟張昭偉說我的時間不能還是要一點點謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3425.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3432.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我知道您強調的是公教跟勞工不一樣但是你也知道公務人才現在就是一直流失問題也是蠻大的不管你說偏在哪個領域所以我們要來檢討這件事情當天人事總署派了專委接受陳情書並且承諾他說會納入團體意見可是他卻只允許各機關推薦的團體才能表達這個讓相關團體非常不滿為什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3456.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3458.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為他們長期在居中爭取權益處理勞資問題那你怎麼能夠確保說獲得各機關的推薦呢這個就是他們就是比較不討喜的一群因為機關本身有一點像資方那爭取加薪的公務員團體有一點點像所謂的勞方 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3475.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3486.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那兩者是站在相對是對立的立場那最終你只有接受各機關推薦的團體那也不過是就是說他們的橡皮圖章而已啊所以我要請教任市長既然當天當天已經對團體承諾了也接下了陳情書那能不能確保說讓這些所有關心公務體系的那個保障的團體們他都有暢所欲言的這個溝通管道呢讓他們講話為什麼要挑選呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3502.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3521.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我沒有在那個現場我們的同仁代表去是有上來有被點名上來做說明您不在場沒有關係我現在跟你再談一個觀念您去指定某一些機關推薦才能夠發言讓其他的人 其他人很可能其實真正是平常是勇於提供事實讓你們參考讓你們能夠有機會去做檢討但這些人如果你不讓他講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3526.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3533.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
只聽你們的話或站在你們這邊講嗎不會不會我要的是一個觀念不是說你在那邊那個觀念上非常重要的價值觀念我跟委員報告就是我們在整個做待遇調整之前我們大概你能不能承諾可不可以讓大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3542.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3546.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
都能夠有機會發言這個發言管道要暢通啊我們都是會讓他們這個暢所欲言而且我們會公教團體的座談會然後我們還會把他的這個意見他們說同意我們還公開在我們網站上面我們一定會把意見送到行政院讓行政院做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3561.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3565.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我知道你們3月已經爭取到那個書記官增資的專業佳績從4700到6070但是根據書記官工會 工會 陳述的工作現場他們平均每月加班數 加班超過50個小時不僅超過法定的40個小時 超過的工時你也沒有辦法去申報或是補休 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3583.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3593.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
就算不到兩千元的待遇提升 基層工作量一樣很龐大你這個流財效果非常有限所以禮拜一我在質詢司法院高秘書長的時候他說會向行政院爭取援額我就想請教副人事長您是否支持有機會改善工作環境的做法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3607.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3622.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
因為這個人力的缺口的問題他其實必須要有多種工具一起來做解決第一個在人力的部分就算這個行政對這個員額的管理是嚴謹的但是我們其實已經給了這個像檢察機關已經給了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3630.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3635.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
一千多人 然後他在書記辦配置上我們給人力 該給人力的部分需求我們給人力然後另外 另外就是剛剛委員提到的那個待遇的調整他那個政治專業價錢是比一般人額外多出來的六千塊那我了解 你也不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3650.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3660.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
就是我們其實有符合委員的期待啦我們也很認真我是談論數字跟你討論嘛GDP成長這十年已經這麼高90幾億的調薪大家都在選人 因為我們106人到現在已經有三千人了所以我們支援司法體系我們是不手軟啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3671.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3684.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
謝謝你 我了解你的想法了就是那個工作流程的改善我們未來也希望說我們可以再給他們一些協助就是說有些工作是不是一定要做得那麼複雜或者是有一些新的工具進來大家比較輕鬆一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3687.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3693.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好啦 輕鬆啊輕鬆 但是準備一題很要緊的 我最後一個一題啊好台鐵公司勞工董事長吳祥志 他背包利用職務之便 詐領每個月的存物加緊六千元長達十年 金額累積八十萬 違規申請台鐵位在花蓮的一個多房型的宿舍跟車位那反觀離鄉背井的很多員工去申請不到宿舍 我請問這是不是違反了這個貪污治罪條例呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3713.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3718.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
有沒有違反沒有違反就好了這個是事實我們現在的了解因為這個是發生在台鐵我們現在得到的資訊是這個部分是台鐵公司的政府正在調查當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3732.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3736.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
富人市長我跟你講台鐵內部就已經證實吳祥志有這樣的行為但他對外宣稱未有濫用職權申請未有圖利那麼請問你乍領今天單身卻申請這個員工宿舍跟停車位為什麼可以被解釋成說沒有濫用職權又沒有圖利呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3750.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3758.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
跟我們報告這個事實的認定不是誰怎麼說的問題啦現在是台鐵已經進行調查還是因為現在台鐵已經在調查我想就台鐵應該會認真地調查你不能像吳偉宇這樣我問的你都不要給我回答我請教你一個重點那我請教你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3771.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3781.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
乍領津貼單身去申請員工宿舍跟停車位如果這個事實今天如果不是吳強志難道會被解釋說沒有問題嗎那我現在想了解因為這個其實今天早上都還繼續有新聞請問吳強志他當然聽說他請辭工會秘書長只是工會喔本職沒有喔請問他要被調職嗎要不要停職接受調查有被要求搬出宿舍嗎他的費用會被追回嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3798.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3802.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
人事長 副人長 您是否可以去了解一下呢我剛剛問的是我們的職責啊 身為立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3806.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3811.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我剛才跟委員報告 我知道他一定會說不知道 我們來問 我們來瞭解那我們想要知道結果這些事情 因為你如果做不對的事情沒有得到適當的懲處那你就是大家都學他看嘛 得到好康啊這個就是當做好事的人 做對事的人他基本上大家就很喪心啊這個做好做好是當端正整個的風氣也讓你們的士氣是會繼續提升嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3837.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3842.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個案子那我要想要後續的一些了解我們來了解然後了解完再跟委員報告公布了一段時間了可以嗎我們多久可以得到這個訊息他有被懲處他可以繼續擔任勞工董事嗎他可以如此嗎跟委員報告不用一個月的時間一個月一個月內一個月內啦謝謝副委員謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3864.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3866.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
接下來我們有請莊瑞雄為人謝謝主席有請我們張夫人市長有請張夫人市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3880.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3905.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
委員好 副院長我來請教我們仁總日前公告修正天然災害停止上班跟上課的一個作業辦法部分條文這個是因應少子女化跟高齡化的一個趨勢將公教員工在天災停課時的照顧對象擴大到孫子女 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3907.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3927.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
同時把原先配偶同為公教員工僅得一人停班的限制你擴大規範到直系親屬明定照顧是同一子女跟孫子女而停止上班者以一人為限要來請教的就是說這個其實整個政策的一個方向是肯定的但這個配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3927.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3954.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
可能還是必須要在有必須要在精進的一個地方啊你說放寬照顧對象納入孫子女那這個符合少子化高齡化這個隔代教養這樣的一個現況政策上是可以肯定但你這個新制上路以後呢那你基層人事單位啊那些查核這補人力敢不夠啊還是說你特殊家庭需求有沒有辦法真正被納入就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3955.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3984.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你這個查核到最後會不會流於刑事的第一個問題因為你現行的規定你同一子女跟孫子女停止上班一人為限但是你現在直系親屬範圍擴大到父母 祖父母 岳父母等姻親問題來了你現在天災發生的時候你機關如何及時跨單位跟跨縣市去做比對你覺得是不是供一個孩子基層你人事到底你這個人力人力你到底有辦法去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3985.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4002.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
及時的查核嗎?來我請教你這個要向委員報告啦謝謝委員的傾聽就是說你現在查核機制到底是什麼?現在查核機制我向委員報告因為這是一個天然災害嘛所以防救災的時候基本上在這種比較緊急的狀態我們在現場的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4007.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4023.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
第一個原則應該就是誠信原則啦頭人提出來基本上會讓他先去做照顧的工作啦至於後面的那個查核你一定到淡路基層的啦不是淡路基層啦如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4025.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4042.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
可能有人會覺得是不是要再查核嘛查核上面 其實當然也可以勾結查核啦因為本來就各機關中間可以聯繫啦那一個比較簡省的方式大部分的機關都是比較誠信原則讓他確決完以後大概就 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4043.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4068.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
就會讓他來請這個假 因為是他的子女的資料啦 其實可能人事的資料也沒有 都有啦也不會說 你就沒這個孩子啊 沒孩子啊 說要回去照顧孩子這個資料上其實是會有的你的意思就是說 這是算平良心的啦 誠信原則啦一線救財的處理 算這樣啦如果有需要查的時候 這樣很奇怪啊你這樣你不覺得也很奇怪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4073.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4089.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
會不會感覺他很奇怪我覺得這個還是要有精進的地方啦再想一下我當然現在只能跟你提出問題就是說你這個要再想一下政策方向都肯定啦但是你像比如說同一職女現役人這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4090.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4106.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
也有一點太僵化了比如說你現行的一個規定裡面有一些家庭比較特殊的你可能就忽略掉你譬如說人家出來有重度的身障的小孩啦或是說有需要維生的設備館還有輪椅的一些搬運的你天災的時候停電啊撤離避難有時候你一個人根本你沒辦法做應付啦那你就變成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4119.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4134.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
很多情況你可以去做一個想像啦你如果有災損 還有要照顧的雙重壓力在這種情況之下有時候你要再搶救住家 要再照顧孩子啊你如果只有一名子女而已 你又法律允許一個人停班 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4134.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4152.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
有時候對整個家庭來說其實也有分身乏術的一個問題那所以我是建議你們增訂了一些比較彈性的一個條款像比如說對於這些比較有重度的身障的、孩童的或者重大災損的家庭或是說你客觀上在照護上會比較困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4154.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4174.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
你也可以說授權機關所長,譬如說類似於專案去給你核可,你兩名以上的親屬庭班,這個可以去照顧一個子女,就不要留於形式上的一個公平,就讓他變成有一個比較實質的照顧的一個能力,我不知道你會看得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4175.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4197.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我非常敬佩委員的看法剛剛委員提的這個觀點是相對周圓也比較人性化的去看待這件事情那對比較有特殊境遇的家庭可能可以提供更貼切的照顧那這個部分委員的意見我們帶回去我們再來檢討好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4198.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4205.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
另外一個問題就是高溫價這個我覺得就很好玩了極端高溫對台灣來講的話其實是一個常態化你看2024年國內熱傷害的就診人數創下高峰從2014年開始熱傷害就診人數從未低於2000人極端高溫不再是偶發的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4225.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4252.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這個天氣啦 而且是一個常態的一個職業的一個風險那公務機關裡面一般人當然會想說 啊你就隨便去而已啊公務員員 你的上班環境哪好啊你但也未必啦 其實也有一些 也有一些啊像比如說在戶外的 在一個高溫作業的一個環境之下啊這一些部分 公務員的部分就變成制度上的一個孤額啦重點來啦 就是說你天然災害停止上班辦法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4253.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4268.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們平常都會說風颱啦 水災啦 跌宕啦就沒有這個整個高溫啦 高溫的一個機制啦那所以呢 你現在在勞工的部分有規範那公務人員的部分 有時候你勞工外勤的就硬撐你像比如說 警消 有人覺得說這本地就你的政府啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4274.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4290.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
怕飛行艇 還是說警察 治安的一個巡邏 還有環保的一個稽查 工程的一個勘察就是說在戶外的這些執法的一個人員 面對這樣的一個高溫的一個部分這都現在沒有了 沒有這個依據 那機關首長呢 他本身他也不敢去 去把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4295.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4298.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個勤務去把他給停下來 也不敢去給他公價讓他怕說我們在放水這樣那我在這個地方 倒是有一個建議你把熱危害的部分 納入特殊天候的一個氣候 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4311.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4331.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你譬如說達到哪一個高溫的一個警戒 紅色的一個或者紫色的一個警戒你把它納入特殊的一個廳後出勤的一個管理 建立這個制度 讓兄弟有一個裁量權人種這個地方你也可以去制定一個指導的一個原則 明確的去做一個授權的話比如說可以調整戶外的一個勤務 還是說避開政府的一個高溫 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4337.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4362.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那不影響到他的考機檢出行 最重要的是這個我不知道任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這跟委員報告 謝謝委員這麼完整的提醒那跟委員報告 過去不是沒有討論過這個問題過去行政院也有找很多學術專家一起討論那過去之所以沒有定是因為說有幾個因素啦就是高溫那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4363.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4384.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
定義不容易定所以後面那個專家的建議大概就是暫時沒有做法治化的處理那其實行政院其實是通函的部分是有通函通函是請各機關按照安慰辦法就是保障的那一塊去訂定相關的防護的措施所以有授權給機關首長可以試情況去做相關的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4388.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4404.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們最近其實也有拜託外交部在收集各國的資料那現在各國在所謂高溫的防護上面定在說停班停課的這個規範裡面比較少大部分是放在勞動的法令跟災防的法令上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4404.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4429.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那把他直接停班的也比較少現在看起來好像有一個我們現在蒐集到伊拉克 他說50度50度高溫停班那其他的像日本 美國 法國這些相關的國家其實都是做預防的措施就是像委員講的 你要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4430.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4450.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
事前的一些相關的防範的措施或是調整他的辦公室上班的時間啊或者是區域啊或者提供什麼樣的這個設備啊讓他可以避免這個高溫的危險所以這個部分委員的意見很好我們就帶回去我們再來研究以目前的確實是沒有法律上的一個依據但問題的問題你要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4452.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4455.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
其實我們談的不是這一塊我們談的是公務人員八八塊嘛你說環保機場嘛 經銷嘛 有人在外面工作嘛其實都會有這樣的一個狀況都值得人總這個地方去弄一個行政上的一個指導跟委員報告啦 其實這有另外一個報告他很認真在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4479.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4507.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
就是那個保訓會那個安慰辦法上面其實現在有很多的機制一直在要求各機關落實這些啦就是有點像職安的範圍他們已經有在做而且我是建議就是我們跟他商量一下不要重複做啦就有人扶著這個部分去落實這樣好你就像你講的去落實啦不只是大家在那裡只上作業最後一個問題要請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4509.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4515.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
最後一個就是牽扯到預算了啦AI系統跟你那個緣合評鑑你現在AI你現在花六百萬啦就是說你錢花下去之後你這個人力廢紡而去暴增我看你人總編列了六百萬去建置中央機關緣合評鑑智慧的一個系統你說要用AI去分析資料啦協助轉寫文案啦推動數位的一個轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4530.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4553.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
但是你這個地方我看起來有點矛盾的地方是你114年你外併專家費用是47萬多 47萬千115年你暴增的143%就是說116點數字其實不大啦但是我的問題在哪裡呢你AI本來是要提升效率你為何你現在外部專家費用你變成不減反增 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4554.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4570.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
要說明一下就是說你這個600萬的系統到底取代多少人工減少多少工時或是說你是不是有量化的KPI不然你整個AI上線之後你硬要有一個明確替代的效應啦不是說我買一個AI我來做做樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4572.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4599.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
重點是效率你要去提升啊你人工的部分不就要去下降行政成本去做一個工具啊不然我AI叫買 請你叫開效率你在原地這樣子踏步數位轉型其實不是多一套系統啦應該是說你真的可以減少行政的一個內耗尤其站在立法院站在一般民眾的立場就是說我希望你看的效率不是只看了一個新名詞你做一個回應來 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4601.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4622.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
跟委員報告啦我是超級認同委員的這個見解的方向啦我認為不應該重複啦你這集是真的爆了嗎就是表示我們的問題可能寫得不夠清楚委員會有這個疑問嘛那我來做一個說明啦就是我們那個AI系統主要是要解決行政的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4623.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4632.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
量的問題就是作業人員的量的問題我們去幫他把那麼多的資料用AI的技術來協助他不要讓他有太多超時的工作狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4639.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4659.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是在行政的減量這個部分去做系統來做處理至於說會委員看到說那個部分為什麼錢會增加那個是因為我們今年第一年剛剛有報告嘛說今年會配合做AI的檢視因為現在AI浪潮就很大明天走了很快啦那我們也需要在這次原理評鑑裡面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4660.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4677.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
怎麼樣協助機關把這個AI所以我們另外會就是今年會特別聘20個AI領域的專家進來人的智慧跟人工智慧要是有一點點差異我們大概是兩個層次就是人工智慧要幫你協助行政的減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4678.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4703.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
人的智慧這邊專家的就是要來做相關導入的這個評估跟建議啦另外我們會進行一個AI的專班啦 各位版班所以他才會委員提出來說怎麼會這個預算會增加然後我們引進來以後一定會讓這個工時上面會行政作業的工時會讓它下降這個不要開玩笑啦 反正你這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4703.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4713.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你這個效率本來就是要去提升你人工的部分本來就是要去下降你行政成本本來就是要去降低啦你這樣的一個預算喔讓所有的辦公室看到以後啊大家覺得說 嗯 你要衝進來 你要錢越開越多那效率好像也沒有達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4735.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4738.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
接下來我們請林倩琦委員來做詢答謝謝我們的主席莊昭偉首先我請我們人事行政總處的副人事長請副人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4756.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4770.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
張婦人市長委員好早安 服務院同仁大家好所以婦人市長本期今天要首先請教是我們公務人力吃緊的問題那接著是軍公教待遇調整的這個相關的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4772.182 |
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| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那麼首先行政院明年又要啟動明年軍公教的待遇調整的一個研議那人事總署這邊也人事行政局也表示那麼下半年要來爭取專業加級的這個提升方向本席是肯定但是本席也要提醒根據全序部的統計那麼2024年公務人力的那個公務員辭職人數已經達了4195人那麼比四年前2020年超過了五成那這個比例是很高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4802.282 |
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4825.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那公部門的缺額我們也知道近期持續在上升中央跟地方都已經超過了13%那麼人力流失跟招募的困難已經不是單一加擠能夠解決的問題更何況你們處理的是這個所謂專業加擠那近期很多公務機關的工會來做陳情那提出全面調整本縫改善加班制度跟提高專業加擠等訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4827.68 |
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4843.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那麼考量近幾年物價的提升然後經濟也是成長的但是整體調薪呢應該要達到10%那麼專業加擠跟學術加擠也應該同步來做調整所以這是一個全面性的問題所以本席請教婦人市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4844.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4869.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那目前是不是已經有掌握各機關人力流失的實際情形那麼包括離職率招募不足職缺補了不滿但是還有高壓業務機關人力斷層的一個具體的數據所以本席在這邊請教三點那第一個部分是待遇調整是不是只會專注在專業家級第二個是加班制度有沒有全面的檢討第三個部分是待遇審議是不是會實質納入第一線的這個聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4872.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4900.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好那這個三個部分是不是先請你做個回應第一個部分就是待遇的調整我們都會同樣去考量現在各界的聲音我們都聽到了所以在我們會就是搭配總預算的這個時程總預算的時程一般我們會在這個總預算提出來之前把這個這個方案這個提出來給行政院建議那 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4903.162 |
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4921.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
整個的通案調整就會提到本心等等的考慮所以現在外界的聲音我們會聽進去我們會就是不要只停留在所謂的專業佳績那整體全面的一個考量本席是肯定這一點的但是全面也希望你們一併來做個考量因為各個工會有提出不同的一些看法 |
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| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4940.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
然後我們也會這個待遇調整之前我們還是會跟這個教育部我們會邀相關的公教團體來聽他們的聲音那剛剛其實趙志文也是有問過不是只有教育部啦我想所有的公務機關等等都需要一併來做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4956.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就是各個這個相關的團體的聲音我們會請他們來表達然後我們這個部分我們也都會如實的呈報給行政院去做參考不會說在我們這邊就停掉了這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4957.282 |
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4981.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 那有關於加班制度的這個部分加班制度 我們其實過去年其實我們對這個加班 勤修就是維護他健康錢跟他權益的部分我們去年也有做了六場的實地訪試那目前看起來是比以前改善但是我們說這個改善當然能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4982.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5009.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
越來越好所以我們今年也會持續的在進行所以這個問題最主要是這個加班費的計算還有加班的餘宿的併計跟第一線的人員他其實中間產生很大的這個落差所以是不是在現行的加班制度上可以使加班的補償更符合實際的一個勞動的支出呢加班的餘宿的計算其實我們總處是開放的立場其實也很多機關已經開放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5012.37 |
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5032.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
但是因為現在各機關運用的系統其實都不一樣都不一樣 拆積的系統其實並沒有全部都是用我們人事總署的系統有的是自己開發所以它的系統的調整可能各機關會有它的考量跟經費的問題但是政策上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5035.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那個移樹統計 我們是開放的 我們是支持的各機關要做就可以做 我們沒有去限制他啦所以本席在這邊提醒啦 就是說跟第一線人員他的落差我想總書這邊還是要去做一個了解那更進一步 更具體的去減少這樣一個跟第一線人員的落差不要說我們做了 然後第一線有機關沒有做這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5059.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5082.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那第三點剛才本席這邊談到就是說那麼你們的審議會議是不是會實質納入第一線的聲音你們目前第一線的聲音有在聽但是是不是會實質納入基層公務員還有教師警消國營機關的相關公會的一個意見那避免行政機關這個片面的一個評估之後做成決定之後又產生一些落差這個我想先前本席應該也是有問過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5084.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5102.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
跟委員報告 這是兩個層次那天陳情的部分 他們本來是比較擔心說其他人會不會卡在人種這個我很明確跟委員報告像國營事業等等不會卡在人種 因為他的案子不用報到人種 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5103.755 |
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5129.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
他的案子不用報告人總關了其他單位他不用報告人總然後各機關裡面包括機關裡面的地線的聲音你們要放進去啊這個會會會這個我們就會不是聽一聽之後然後他們的意見就被記錄下來結果沒有真正納進系統去考量決策的行政院如實的去提供給他們建議意見本席這邊所談的最主要是希望能夠透過待遇改革的一個方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5130.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5149.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
然後在本薪加給還有加班制度等等的職癌發展這邊要讓不是只有短期的一個改善而已而是說長期的這個規劃讓我們整個公務人力不會在現在產生一個很大的一個落差 好不好好 那接下來本席要這個詢問的是有關於公教待遇法制化的進程這本席過去有關心過 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5151.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5165.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那麼如果每年只靠臨時的研議協商基層同仁很難形成穩定的一個預期那本席之前也提過那個軍公教待遇法制化的調整究竟什麼時候能夠完成本席在三月份質詢的時候那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5167.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
行政院卡關的這個軍公教待遇的這個調整法治化的草案那當時人事長回應就是說目前其實法治化就讓遊戲規則更明確大家預期能夠更穩定那都有找基層的討論但是本席關注有關於基層人員參與的這個程度那在2025年的10月份那麼我們司委會其實有邀請行政院就是這個總署這邊做業務報告的時候本席也問過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5193.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5213.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那麼當時你們的回應是軍公教待遇調整的法治法方案已經在前年2024年的12月17號就已經送行政院來做審議但是這個最後一里路似乎到現在2025年的5月6號好像還沒有走到那這樣已經走了一年半了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5214.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5241.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
本席請教婦人市長那目前軍公教待遇法制化的過程到底是卡在哪一個行政程序那麼第二部分是那在最後一領路呢目前可不可以明確的給予一些完成的時程的承諾或者是能不能在本會期或今年內提出具體的方案那麼最後法制化的內容是不是可以明確納入基層代表例如教師團體 警消 相關公會的意見跟前面本席所講的這個邏輯是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5243.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5252.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那麼我們能夠接受這個可預期的待遇審議的這個機制而不是每一年都在靠行政的裁量或者是臨時的協商您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5253.035 |
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| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
跟委員報告後面委員的期盼跟我們的擬案方向是一致的我們的草案裡面其實也納入基層公交團體的代表如果都納入剛才本席所建議的相關團體所以目前是卡在哪一個行政程序呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5274.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5292.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那案子我們是送出去了那送出去了現在就是在等待排行政院院會討論所以還在行政院嘛這個一年半的時間我們繼續努力啦我們繼續努力那大家都要共同努力啦那我們也希望行政院這邊能夠加快謝謝委員的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
對最重要就是整個現在公務體系的這個環境然後讓這個願意來投入的人的落差跟原先預定的差太多所以我們要趕快來補足這樣一個問題來改善研議不是只有研議而已真正用行動來改善這樣一個問題 |
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| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那最後一題其實也是跟我們司法人力的人員它其實還是跟人員有關那本席在這邊談到剛才是整體公務體系但是人力留不住那其實很重要一個關鍵也是反映實時的這個業務量那本席現在從司法機關來切入那請教一下這個中央機關總員額的這個制度對司法人力配置造成一個結構性的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5337.219 |
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5361.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
但是去年台灣高等法院要求法官助理來兼任庭務員跟通譯相關的工作那麼很多人就反彈了本席認為其實這背後反映的是法院案量也逐年增加但是司法機關的員額受限受到中央政府機關總員額法的限制沒有辦法隨著案量來做業務形態的變化調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5365.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5393.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
人事總署是不是有掌握近年來法院的這個案量法官 書記官 法官助理 庭務員以及通譯人力之間的一個落差那如果案量持續增長原額的天花板沒有辦法動那麼最後只能在這個法院裡面的有限人力間相互挪用那這其實有的時候一挪用就會要求不同職務的人來承擔原本不是他核心職責的這個工作所以會引發一些反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5395.084 |
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5421.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們知道現在的業務也越來越多元所以法官開庭需要書記官來製作記錄那麼庭務員要處理報導跟點呼同意要做相關的這個協助錄音及卷證的一個提示那都有他的專業跟有他很細緻的一個責任可是如果因為人力不足那麼就法官助理要大量兼任那也會擠壓到法官助理原本協助法律研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5422.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5448.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
整理爭議跟草擬文書的一個職責那會影響到整個審判品質跟法院的運作那這個穩定就會被衝擊所以幾點詢問第一個那麼司法面對目前司法案量增加人力也不足的一個情況下那人事總署是不是可以針對司法機關來建立更細緻的原額評估機制不要只用總量管制來看待法院的人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5449.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5474.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
應該要納入案量複雜案件的一個複雜度還有這個停期的一個密度還有數位卷證的一個負擔跟人民訴訟需求的指標那第二個部分是那目前在中央政府機關總原額的一個架構下那人事總署目前在跟司法院討論司法機關原額的可行性方案是不是可以包含專案增額原額彈性調整或 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5478.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5501.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
做修法的一個檢討那這個部分是不是可以請這個富原市長這邊先做個回應謝謝委員的指教那當然這個案量等等各種相關的因素去納入這個圓耳的評估那個是應該的那司法院那邊其實他是獨立的一塊我們給圓耳以後他們的配置是怎麼配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5502.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5519.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那個要尊重司法院去做處理所以本時你講的這個天花板有一個總量你們是不是可以有一些諮詢的調整還沒有影響到他們啦因為我們在內部實質的一個運作跟職責的內容上已經影響到第一線人員啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5521.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5537.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
雖然整個的緣額總的緣額是變動不大但是在司法部門在最近從106年到現在其實我們已經補了3000個緣額給他所以人力上的增補我們是都有在支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5538.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5551.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
看起來你們的考量可能就是說人力有增加但是或許他的這個案量或者是整個業務的內容複雜度跟這個重量其實是比你們人力增補的這樣一個情形來更為嚴重跟委員報告其實我們也蠻熱情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5555.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5574.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
就是我們也一直在跟他們做一些相關的討論最近在修法院組織法其實我們都是支持就剛才提到那個原額彈性的調整司法院最近對我們應該還算滿意就是我們其實都是支持可能是你這邊講那我們可能再來問問看司法院對你們目前的一個回應和看法另外跟委員報告就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5574.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5603.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
就是剛委員提到的有很多的作業方式有部分像庭務員他們其實有一些數位化的處理其實想要減掉他的工作剛才本席聽到你們在所謂數位化跟AI的一個回應那其實本席在這個實務操作上發現那這個系統其實還需要人去學習那這個人要進入這個系統裡面其實又是另外一件事情其實像這樣子業務量或者是你在行政的核心上其實你的因應就要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5604.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5623.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
你在啟動的時候你設計當然導入當然會有一些導入之後可能還要碰到後來實務上的一個問題跟檢修我們之前有跟他們在聯繫我們最近應該也要再跟他們在5月11號我們有跟他約5月11號我們會到縣地去再做一些瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5624.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5649.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
看看能夠提供什麼樣的協助 譬如說那個電子卷證啦 自動編目啦或者是它的筆錄的製作 能不能有一些數位化的方式來處理然後有一些紙本的 還是重複登打的 有一些工作啦就是除了給人 然後給待遇之外 這個工作的工具跟流程我們希望來跟他們做一些協助啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5649.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5674.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
就是可能效度的部分你們要在這個平台上再多做一些溝通然後把這個效能能夠真正的發揮出來剛才5月11號我們會去如果你們有這樣溝通的一個打算那是不是可以把本席這邊所談的專案增額或者是員額彈性調整或者是整個全面的修法如何能夠顧慮到這個第一線人員或者是在不同層次上大家的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5674.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5696.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所以我目前的意見也帶給他們是一個相對獨立的對 但是對於他們提出來這個需求可能你們就要各個層次上去做一個處理因為相對獨立嘛但是在不同層次大家所遇到的一個問題有的時候也不是你們講到總額或者是這個金錢方面或者是加薪等等可能還有很多需要細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5697.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5712.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
剛剛委員提到那個業務分工到底哪一個職務應該做什麼我們之前也是跟司法系統有建議說他們如果劃分得更清楚在現場那些相互的一些比較的一些紛爭可能就會少一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5713.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5728.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
本席最後還是要提醒不管你們是怎麼去溝通跟談最重要的就是說法律案量的一個增加那人民對審判的速度跟品質的要求那人力配置沒有辦法就被走元而限制的情況下那麼衝擊到的還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5729.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5743.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
人民跟訴訟權益跟對司法的信任我想最重要的是你們不管怎麼談那重點就是說那人民擺第一的一個情況下我們如何去調整這樣一個體系好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝林倩琦委員接下來請張雅玲委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5763.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5764.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
謝謝主席,有請副任市長。請副任市長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5768.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5791.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你好好 謝謝 謝謝夫人市長不過因為在開始之前我可能還是要先澄清一件事情就是剛在第一位這個吳宗憲委員他在講的就是說總統他一直覺得我們沒有行政中立然後他引用了一句話就是行政院長就是說他在大罷免期間他還去問說他要如何支持地方我想這整句話我必須要去還原避免大家造成誤會當時是因為在2025年的時候國民黨跟民眾黨聯手刪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5797.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5825.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
很多的理應該說他們的理由上面有些都非常的離譜啦刪除了許多的中央總預算所以呢他當時原話是怎麼說的他說很多立委當時大筆大筆的刪他們不支持中央政府我要如何支持地方政府那這句話的本意在於就是說因為中央政府的錢變少了嘛所以他沒有辦法來去支持許多原本過去可以支持的地方預算所以我想這部分我先做一個澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5826.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5854.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那接下來呢我就要來請教這個副理事長就是說上個禮拜呢其實我們有民間團體有公務員公務革新力量聯盟等公交團體呢他們聚集在行政院前抗議他們主要有幾個訴求我相信副理事長一定都有掌握嘛好那特別第一個就是加薪的部分那我想因為這幾年來其實很多人對於公務人員的薪資調整包含我自己過去都有在關心說我們是不是有更多調整的機會那也希望我們可以有一個正面的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5855.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5882.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那特別是說針對這個金額呢它是不是不是說大家來菜市場喊價我們每個人怎麼喊而是有一個制度性的討論跟一個方式來去做一個審議所以我想要了解就是說剛剛其實也有其他委員都有關心那我不曉得說你們現在這一項待遇的調整呢是不是可以跟我們講一下進度是什麼那接下來呢大概是在什麼時候會開這個軍公教教員工待遇審議委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5887.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5910.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝委員的指教很感謝委員這個政務官還是有行政中立的問題也都會遵守就是他只是沒有一個專屬的法制但是散見在公務員服務法等等行政中立法有一些規定的地方其實政官還是會去遵守的然後另外就是剛才講到那個待遇調整的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5912.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5939.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
也很感謝委員一直長期來給我們支持給我們力量我們其實很積極在做這件事包括像之前講的的確是在這個人才競爭的環境上面因為少子女化還有我們的產業需求很暢旺然後這個未來的工作的性質的選擇其實有更多元的選擇其實在工部門上我同意我想這個之前我們都有提過就是說面對於現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5940.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5968.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那待遇審議委員會那個部分我們是搭配總預算的時程所以我們大家的規劃都會在六七月的時候預計會來召開對不對那這一項待遇也要透過這個審議委員會才能夠知道下一步的進度是嗎對 審議委員會完以後我們會把這個審議委員意見包括軍公教團體的意見我們都一併會送給行政院做最後的這個決策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5969.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5992.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好 了解喔 不過我也想要提一下民間團體的心聲啦就像全教總也有跟我提到說希望呢 讓這個透過軍公教條新法制化建立一個更固定的更制度化的意見來收集他們的意見因為其實在最低工資法裡面都有一些相關的制度嘛那這個部分我也想請教我們公教人員條新 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5993.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6008.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
制度的法制化的進度又是什麼那未來呢在法制化的法制化之後在調新過程之中呢是會分怎麼樣去分這個軍公教人員的這個的代表呢你們可以簡單說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6012.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6029.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟委員報告就是這個待遇調整的法制化其實我們已經把法案已經送到行政院現在就是在行政院這個排審當中那如果行政院通過的話就會送到大院來做審議那原則上就是跟委員期待的其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6030.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6033.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
就是公務員一個我們應該是增加四席公教各兩席的代表會進到委員會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6044.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6072.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以是公務員教師代表分開的對不對對 都有了解那這個我想我們就持續的保持關心那如果有相關進度也希望可以盡快能夠聽到我們這邊帶來的好消息那再來就是說上週的記者會呢他們其實有提到就是加班費的一個制度的改革那首先因為其實我想先問一下副理事長我們現在因為在91年召開的92年度中央政府總預算案籌編事宜的會議的決議的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6073.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6086.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
是將中央政府各機關的加班控管在這個20小時啦那我們現在到底有多少機關加班超過20小時我們有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6089.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6106.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
跟委員報告92年那個規定其實它執行了很長一段時間包括在預算的編制上面都有受到一些限制後來我們有跟主委總署溝通至少預算那個部分已經是打開的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6109.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6132.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
20小時我們現在其實是整體在評估現在是超過20小時都要專簽嗎平均的時事務是沒有超過20小時平均是沒有超過20小時它有部分機關會超過20小時現在我們在加班費的辦法上面是有段數的規定因為業務需要就可以用專簽的方式還是可以領到加班費 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6132.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6152.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
同意啦 但是就是說 我想 因為去113年那個勞發署的這個無薪公務員輕生事件就已經讓我們看到假下班嘛 因為他先去打卡 打下班卡 假下班真加班所以這個調查到底是不是反映了真實 因為我想也可以看到這張照片嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6153.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6179.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
晚上九點的衛福部是長這個樣子的燈火通明啦所以到底是只有部分客室還是是說其實真的蠻普遍的發生在各個部會我覺得這個真的要有實際的掌握要更清楚啦畢竟我想現在的行政部門我們的公務員承擔的工作量包含我們在社福長照的工作其實都比以前要來的多更多可是我們又沒有人願意進到這個公務體系所以他們承擔的公務量 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6180.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6205.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
也就變成每個人分擔的公務量也就更多了那這個加班其實已經變成了一個應該算是已經蠻常態的一件事情那像有一些機關如果我們特別有發現人事總處這邊有發現說某些機關或是單位他們長期反覆出現必須要專遷加班的狀況的話那其實就已經不是個案了那這個上限難道沒有辦法有調整的機會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6208.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6234.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
各種可能都是存在我們剛剛其實其他委員詢問的時候其實我大概有提過對於勤修制度其實我們現在是例行化都會每年都會有排一些場次去看相關我們認為就是剛剛委員講的比較需要實地去了解的那當然委員如果有手上有反映的個案其實也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6235.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6261.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
交給我們我們可以來做進一步的了解那平常我們這個這個宣導的部分我們一直在加強不應該有所謂這個假刷卡增加班的那種狀態這個是我們不容許這樣的狀態存在對 因為我想除了宣導之外我覺得我們可能還是要從不是只有到各部會各科應該說我們要到各部會各單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6263.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6287.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
去了解去收集這些專簽的狀況然後我們真的要來進一步來檢討這是不是可以成為上限調整的基礎啦這部分是可以的嗎因為像是在聘用人員是用勞基法的話他的加班時數是到46小時可是公務人員現在是20小時所以是不是可以來檢討說我們現在是不是可以做一個統整性的檢討呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6290.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6314.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們其實放的應該是上限制比勞工更寬的啦我們是放到80個小時還有三個月裡面可以可以到240小時就是三個月內彈性調整所以我們的這個加班時數的限制因為我們要服務民眾嘛所以其實是比勞工的這個放的寬一點但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6315.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6344.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
不論如何 就是委員剛才提的意見我們會待會去做滾動的檢討好 了解 其實這一題我最主要只是想要講就是說我們在看待加班費這件事情不是只有從預算這個角度啦我們真的要去反映到現實公務員他們的勞力付出的一個狀態我們才能夠去了解說到底是不是人力不夠我們要幫這個單位加人力還是要怎麼樣去做一個調整而不是單純從預算的角度因為他們都是活生生的生命嘛他們的勞動都應該得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6345.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6367.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
尊重這樣子好不好謝謝那下一題就是說我們在這一次的AI剛剛其實莊瑞雄稍微也有提到就是說這一次的AI浪潮基本上現在各部會也都開始說要導入AI了不過我想要特別針對一個部分來做討論就是說我們這次在做AI的導入的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6368.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6383.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
你們是說會放在源而平建那我看一下在這個投影片的右手邊這是你們現在的一個流程就是去普查各個機關單位他們做了哪些是透過AI的然後你們再彙整資料然後再交由外部的委員來進行書面的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6385.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6407.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
然後再抽查看看有然後再會同這個國科會速發部來做一個實地的考察然後再對他們提出意見那我想問一下就是說因為現在呢我們到底對於AI導入在源而平建我們有沒有去對應這一個速發部最新發布的風險框架我們有沒有去做相關的對應呢那我們會納進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6412.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6439.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我想這個應該要先把框架納進去因為不然這樣子的話我們怎麼知道他們因為AAA的應用有可能會洩漏到更多的個資然後有可能會有幻覺那這些東西都是應該要在我們導入緣和評鑑之前就要先想好的它是不是符合的那應該要先把這個框架框好之後才能告訴各部會哪些東西可能可以哪些東西可能建議上面做緣和評鑑的時候不應該放進去這樣大家才會有一個比較安全的基準嘛這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6441.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6455.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
跟委員報告我們的評鑑的機關裡面會包括速發部因為現在也通過AI基本法所有AI運用都會在可信任的環境來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6456.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6466.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那這個但是對啊 可信任的環境是一個原則嘛但是為什麼還是有風險框架把它分低到高那沒關係因為時間也到了速發部會參與我們會請他們提供意見給我們就先納進去然後在實際的平和過程他們也會參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6473.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6486.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
不好意思喔 因為我覺得這件事情啊因為我們之前做原額評鑑就是希望它能夠真實反映嘛因為過去上次我在質詢的時候就有很多人提到說原額評鑑根本其實沒有什麼實質的效果又浪費非常多時間所以我想這也許是你們想要做行政減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6488.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6515.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
透過AI的方式來協助大家但是這裡面就涉及到我剛剛講到的一些風險所以是不是可以給我一個簡單的書面報告告訴我們你們會如何去對應這個風險框架來確保我們的原額評鑑不會造成一些個資洩漏或者是一些機密洩漏的大部分是個資洩漏的問題因為我還是認為AI導入還是應該要在合適的業務場景才能夠提升公共的服務那也能夠避免風險 好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6517.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6529.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
謝謝委員給我們很好的意見那委員需要的資料我們一個月內提供好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員的詢答接下來請沈發慧委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6544.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6547.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 主席我們請富仁市長請張富仁市長委員好富仁市長早齁這個我在這個去年的3月齁我曾在也是我們的這個業務質詢裡面齁那時候我特別針對這個有關這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6568.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6586.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
在公務人員AI人才培訓制度尤其是有關於AI認證系統建立的問題那時候來跟你們進行了解那時候你們有提到說要建立公務人員的AI認證體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6588.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6607.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那我就今天因為預算審查啦我就是檢視你們的這個在預算裡面所呈現出來的你們有關於AI認證的相關的這些預算編列那你們這個也我就看你們在這個政府領航人才發展計畫也就是你們的這個稅書計畫這個提要裡面的這個第四項有這個計畫這個計畫事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6613.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6642.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
在去年的預算也有啦齁都有 那我看今年預算是編列九千萬那九千萬裡面呢在他的項下齁有這個第一點齁 有關這個公務這是我剛剛所關心的這個部分齁有關於發展公務AI學習原地認證體系及標準教材營運齁等等這些有關AI學習原地AI學習地圖的這個相關的這些預算請問這一項在這九千萬裡面佔多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6645.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6654.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
你們整個政府AI政府領航這個部分是有1000萬的預算編列在9000萬裡面大概只佔1000萬我等一下我整個今天要來談就是要來談我們這個有關AI學習地圖的這個整體計畫的部分那我等一下我們回頭來檢視說我們這個那時候所談的認證體系的建立那這個我看我們這整個AI學習這個地圖的這個整體計畫這個裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6676.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6695.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個有關你們這計畫的有實施目標有參與單位那參與單位你們有提到你們有提到一個這個跨部會協調平台這是你們的這個有關這個AI學習地圖的參與單位跨部會協調平台就是所謂AI公務人才發展辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6696.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6715.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
有建立這個辦公室所以我們現在等於說這整個AI學習地圖的這個計畫是由主要的參與單位變成由速發部我們人總跟我們這個跨部會協調平台這三個單位在負責以我的理解大概速發部大概是 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6716.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6738.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
是大概負責這個有關於相關的這些內容課程內容等等的設計大概是由速發部來做那實際執行單位是我們人總那這個我們這個AIAI公務人才發展辦公室他主要負責什麼東西我們這三者之間的分工大概是什麼狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6740.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6761.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
蘇發部我們人總以及我們剛剛講的這個跨部會協調平台AI公務人才發展跟委員報告當然蘇發部是負責整體的包括民間包括公部門的這整個AI生態系的這個建構是這個蘇發部然後我們公部門的部分大概就是用AI公務人才發展辦公室去跟他對接然後這個裡面的成員這個辦公室是人總 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6765.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6784.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
對 長社的一個辦公室是到行政院核定的就是由人總跟書法部組成人總跟書法部組成我們的分工大概是我們就是做一般公務員的訓練就是通識型的課程的訓練然後資訊人員的部分就是比較專業的部分是就會由書法部來負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6786.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6796.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以這個辦公室基本上基本上這個辦公室AI人才辦公室是由我們人總人總跟速發部人總跟速發部兩個有跨部會的人員參與對對然後剛剛委員關心到那個認證體系的所謂這個跨部會的平台他會擴大到 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6808.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6821.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個產官學院這個相關的單位會把這個速發部這個執行的單位是我們這個人總的公務人力發展學院就是在新能南路那個就是學院它是一個執行的單位然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6823.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6849.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
現在有關這些公務人員的AI培訓的這些課程推動的這些課程我看你們這些推動的課程裡面都有很多包括這些小組討論、實作練習等等這些都有我也看到我們行政院在去年的5月29行政院有一個新聞稿說我們目前有關於每年必須完成的這些AI課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6850.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6876.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
累計選讀人次已超過46萬人次啦那AI通識課程這個達98班級啦那現在又過了一年啦那到目前為止到今年今年現在五月了嘛到目前為止我們整個總共實際培訓的這些參與人次以及他的班級現在累計到多少跟委員報告啦這個就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6877.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6898.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
像數位的那個部分其實已經超過百萬人次的這個點閱不是點閱不是點學習啦 完成學習啦這個講得太快了修正一下就是已經完成了大概有超過一百萬人次不過細節的部分我可不可以請我們林立凡學院的院長來你們到底到目前為止辦了多少期 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6899.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6903.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
然後大概總共培訓的114年大概開了256期 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6910.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6915.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
實體的部分 實際開設11654人次結訓然後115年到4月為止開設了41期然後會有3141人結訓平均每班要有36人然後115年的目標我們是預計要培訓1.9萬人1.9萬人 好每年大概要培訓2萬人你們以這個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6939.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6952.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那所以我們現在但是我們現在這個正式開設課程的部分那我們就回到剛剛所講的這個認證的部分認證的部分我看你們說我那時候問就是因為我們目前國家沒有一個真的國家認定的AI專業的認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6955.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6981.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
認證機制現在國家並沒有啦所以是大部分都是民間的啦都是民間的那時候我有請你們說要規劃這個有關於我們由人種來做這個我們自己的專業認證那你們在你們的這個公務人員這個你們的這個報告裡面有關於公務人員AI認證體系你們提到說目前你們70%以民間的既有認證還有至少30%的公務客製內容請問這所謂30%公務客製內容是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6986.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7001.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個跟委員報告就是這個案子其實我們跟訴發部討論很久啦就是因為所謂認證的所在能力的部分嘛那能力大部分的能力民間的需求跟公部門的需求沒有不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7001.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7025.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
但是公部門他還是會有一部分的區隔因為公部門就剛剛像這個雅玲委員才提到了我們有一些安全的更嚴格的考量就因為我們有很多公共利益的部分所以那個百分之三十就是這個認證裡面的測驗的這個範圍的內容要有百分之三十是屬於專屬公務的部分專屬公務是由我們人總來認證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7028.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7034.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
會給民間機構 但是我們會 還是民間嘛我們會 因為我們跟蘇華部大概談了70%給民間 我問你說30% 你們說30%由我們公務來做所以說這30%我們最後還是給民間會按照我們的要求跟框架來提案然後我們又會組一個專業委員會來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7048.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7050.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
有專業委員會那審查通過以後他才可以來執行這個認證你剛剛提到這個因為我們公務上面這個資訊安全這個是跟民間是最大的區別我們對於這個治安的風險跟防線這個公務機關是比民間還要再更進一步那我們目前這個有關直通安全的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7072.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7092.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
目前我們這個也是我們人總這邊要主管的就有關於自通安全的這些相關的這些公務專業的加擠制度這部分我來跟你進行一些討論關於這個公務人員加擠的給予辦法 給予辦法這個我們有依據這個法裡面我們有一個公務人員專業加擠表 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7095.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7108.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
大概這個所謂的我們這些資訊專業加擠他大概就是這個副表20這是我們這個公務人員這個加擠的給予辦法裡面的副表20副表20裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7110.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7135.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
有關於這個有這個關於就是關於資訊專業加級的規定那其中他下面的負責負責五的部分他又另外有一個資安增資加級有這兩種不同的加級嘛對不對是不是這個部分你跟委員報告就是資安那個部分我們要額外再加再加一筆啦就是資訊資訊專業有一筆但是你們有關資安的再加一筆對另外一個資安的增資加級 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7137.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7161.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那這個部分這樣子的制度設計它就產生了一點點產生一些問題啦這些問題也不是我個人的看法啦事實上審計部也曾經指出來過啦我們有關於這個資安增資加擠有關這個資訊的專業加擠的部分它有適用對象它適用對象的要件它必須實務上面歸列於資訊處理直系它直系上面你要是資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7162.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7185.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
處理直系你才可以領這第一個第二個他同時要具備實際從事電子資料處理這是第二個要件第三個他要必須要在下列情形在特定的一些機關他這裡所規定的這些機關裡面包括包括這個資通安全責任等級規定的相關的A級的機關等等這些才可以他必須同時符合這這樣的條件才能夠領這個資訊專業家級 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7190.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7215.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那這個就會產生問題就是有一些很多單位有一些單位他並沒有設置專門的這個資訊單位這個自通安全的單位他並沒有設置這個專門的資訊單位那所以這個他就沒有辦法符合我剛剛所講的這些但實際上他所做的事情都是一樣的跟剛剛所講的這些都是一樣但他沒有辦法領這個有關於自通 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7219.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7236.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
資安的增資加給的部分他就沒辦法領 因為他不屬於甚至他不屬於A級 有些機關他即使有專責單位但他不屬於剛剛所講的A級機關他可能是B級或C級的資安單位他也沒有辦法領取這個資安的增資加給這樣的狀況事實上統計起來並不少這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7245.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7263.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
請問我們這部分審計部是在審議報告裡面都已經指出過了我們有沒有做過什麼樣的檢討這個跟委員報告很感謝委員提醒這個意見那這個部分我們已經在檢討當中了那委員意見很好我們會在檢討當中就是怎麼樣更趨近現實的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7271.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7279.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個審計部提出來是一百一十三年現在已經一百一十五年了你說在檢討你們檢討出了什麼一年多我們就是希望更實際去從事的話而且還不只這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7285.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7303.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
還不止這個問題不止說這個治安的政治家級的問題你現在就是因為剛剛所講的這些有關於資訊專業家級本身你也會因為你處理相同的業務但你在不同的單位你適用不同的家級表 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7305.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7315.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
對不對你在經濟部你可能在經濟部在產業發展署在經濟部在哪裡他一般的專業他就是用一般專業加級表但你在相關的其他的單位你做同樣的事情你領的就是資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7318.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7341.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我是希望說我們能夠做同樣事情它的評價落差還有這會影響到跨機關的人才流動跟整體流財都會受到因為我們這樣子制度上面設計上面的問題的影響這部分我希望你們能夠做一個通判檢討跟調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7344.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7372.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員報告這個部分我們這個人長只是我們的這個業務單位我們就照委員剛剛提的意見我們來做一個同案人的報告資訊這個治安的這個適用部分我們會跟速發部再做一個釐清然後讓他更務實的把這個這個這個目前的這個資訊專業加級跟資安增資加級這個部分的制度設計上面的造成的一些不公跟一些一些評價不不不不不等的部分我們來做一些調整好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7375.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7383.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
謝謝委員謝謝沈發慧委員接下來請范雲委員來做詢問感謝昭緯跟戴昭緯有請我們政務副人事長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7413.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7423.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這時間你可以自己先發表我們不計時沒有關係沒事這樣子請副人事長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7425.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7446.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
副人事長您早我想要先肯定行政院人事行政總署過去在性別主流化下已經做了不少關於性別平等的部分那我們的確有看到越來越高階的中高階的女性的公務的領導者出現這是好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7447.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7472.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
但是我仔細去看一下這個相關的資料發現你們還是可以繼續努力啊那只是現在的議題就會變得更細我想行政院人事行政總署你們是統籌所有的行政院的所屬機關跟地方機關的人事行政包含訓練對不對那其中有包含辦理中高階公務員培訓計畫這部分沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7477.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7503.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那針對這裡面的資訊我們辦公室根據你們的統計做了一些分析想請問副人事長您知道那個基層的公務員的女性比例嗎整體公務員的女性比例男女比例整體全體公務員的女性佔多少您知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7506.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7530.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
女性51%我看那個時間就是那個各官等的比例如果用114年的去年底的資料女性是各官等是41.84這個母數全體是多少你們那邊有沒有數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7536.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7543.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我這邊看到的數字113年的資料是考試院的數字是57.4%就是接近六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7547.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7569.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
113年 因為我這邊沒有114年的 這樣沒錯吧就理解的比例上應該是沒錯接近六成那我們會發現 如果你看那個初階升中階的話其實訓練還好 可是從你這邊的高階這邊是人事行政總署你們自己的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7570.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7579.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
高階人員的培訓班裡面女性只有占四成如果要到國外進修的話女性只占三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7582.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7606.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這個跟他整體的數字接近六成差蠻大的吧出國進修只佔三成了然後如果是比較高階的培訓班女性只佔四成可是他佔總公務人員的六成我想任市長您覺得為什麼女性公務員受中高階的培訓比例比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7607.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7627.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我來回答委員的問題這是委員關注的問題跟剛剛委員講的都是實況我們要繼續努力也是實況就是有進步但是需要繼續努力然後我跟委員介紹一下就是如果在人事總處應該沒有這個問題就是我們現在五個業務處的處長十二等的高階的有四個是女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7628.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7642.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
對我知道 有一個受國警署的男性然後我們的最高的常務次長那個層級只有一個人 那個沈副人長也是女性啦所以在人事總署應該是沒有這個問題剛剛整體的部分的確是要再往前推 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7650.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7666.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟委員包括就是去年我們最高階的班級就是國政班跟高齡班這兩個就是要培養未來比較高階關鍵人才那到去年其實也還沒有達到委員的理想就是那個性別係數應該要趨近1才對現在那個比例我們的統計是47.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7672.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7694.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以就是接近50%但是還沒過半的狀態那您知不知道為什麼我說如果要請您分析一下這個應該跟委員報告因為他會跟整體的會有關聯就是他還是一樣跟母數前端的母數因為現在的檢認官的比例是從大概從30%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7697.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7715.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
現在到去年是36.55所以他選材的那個母數就相對比較小就是剛剛委員提到那個問題他是存在的就是他原來那個部分我們會持續在努力把 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7716.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7743.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我現在知道你們會努力我就是怕你們不知道怎麼努力所以要問你為什麼就是因為我們知道為什麼之後才有辦法對症下藥你覺得為什麼因為如果這個中高階培訓對他往上升官重要的話那他本身的比例女性太低的話就會影響到更高階的就是公務員的女性的比例沒錯吧那為什麼他們受訓的比例比較低呢您知不知道為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7744.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7760.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就剛剛跟委員報告譬如說他篩選的範圍裡面他一定要有先的基本資格譬如說檢認的層級你是說他下面的基本資格不足是不是基本資格的人會比較少他的母數是比男性小的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7761.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7777.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
因為剛剛有報告這是女性的檢認官大概是現在是36.55那顯然就是男性是60幾所以這個在選員的過程當中就會有然後為什麼會有那個照理說如果以這個比例來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7779.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7795.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
應該選出來會是60幾對30幾我們現在是把它拉到40幾所以我們還是有政策的因素進去考量希望說在選員的時候女性的部分還是在選員的時候我是不認為你們這個中高階的訓練女性佔40%去國外進修這是我的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7805.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7828.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我這邊的數字40%應該是沒錯嘛男女的你可以看那個左邊的是你們自己的統計高階人員培訓女性只有35%欸組團研究43%進修學位29%欸那跟委員報告是不是那個數據上的差異是不是讓我們會後再提供資料給對啊所以不是你說的47%因為這個左邊那個表示我們的喔這個我們現在手上的統計的資料是到47% |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7834.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7838.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好 那這個表示你們自己的而且這個是到民國114年是最新的資料就算是你講的47%也是遠低於它的60%啦對不對 少了13%嘛這個是事實 因為我剛剛讓你講了很久喔這個對我質詢不利喔 要跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7854.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7881.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
你來看一下全體公務人員是57.4%可是初階升中階的女性訓練者是願意來的他有60%的女性所以初中階你剛講的委任、兼任、檢任的確要一層一層升上去我現在就要告訴你初階到中階的時候其實女性是願意參加訓練的願意升官的那為什麼到中階升高階只剩45% |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7883.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7904.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那這個其實學者是有做過研究的因為就是你從整體來講以113年為例男性監任官比女性監任官總數少了3萬人他總數少3萬人可是受升官等訓卻多了200人所以流失的女性中高階公務人才到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7905.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7920.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就是在這一層其實女性的人比較多可是最後卻是中高階授訓那您可以看一下鍾偉雲學者的研究公職男女的調動與生牽現象 滾石生不生胎他有去做研究了 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7922.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7945.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
發現升遷不總是發生在同一單位也可能跨單位跨區域那有遷調經驗的公務員那有助於他升官那所以這個因為升遷過程就會跨級那另外女性公務員比起男性公務員他更有可能因為家庭的責任拒絕跨區的調任還有包含就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7946.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7972.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
相關的就是就會影響到他升遷跟累積勵精的機會譬如說他如果在台南市你一定要他調到台中市那他沒有辦法因為他承擔比較多家庭照顧責任可是已婚的男性公務員都比較不受家庭因素的干擾所以你這個制度設計本身有可能女性因為照顧責任她就升不上去了她到了中階的時候她升不上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7973.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7984.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那我想升官等訓是考試院的保訓會處理但是授訓名單是各機關人事處的領選跟報送所以你們有監督職責沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7987.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8007.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那沒關係我今天只是希望你做一件事就是你們你剛說你願意進一步努力那你能不能針對這個特別是中高階的這個訓練那做一個跟性別有關的分析報告那想出一個可能的好的對策好嗎我想政府的各部門都已經針對照顧工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8009.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8030.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那其中當然也有可能承擔比較多照顧工作的男性如何不要影響他往上升錢因為你的制度設計就會讓這些人非常的不利好不好可以嗎好 謝謝委員的指教那這個部分那個報告我們可不可以兩個月提供給委員好 那多久內可以兩個月兩個月 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8036.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8041.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好謝謝范雲委員那我們下一位我們請翁曉琳委員上台請答謝謝主席我這裡有請副任市長張副任市長好我們請副任市長上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8061.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8080.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
最近人事行政總署在4月多的時候曾經有發函各機關及各地方政府要了解軍公教核心人員的於114年專案查核及常態化制度化的查核然後又涉及到有關要求軍公教人員聚集在 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8081.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8094.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
沒有在大陸有涉及申領大陸身份證等等這些情況我想請問就是副人事長這個人事總處發的這個函令發的這個函他的法律依據是什麼跟委員報告這個是兩岸事務的部分主管機關都是陸委會所以我們那個源頭都是陸委會的所以就是你們是配合陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8109.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8119.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
的要求配合陸委會的兩指公文所以你們自己就發函給各個機關然後要對於公教人員進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8124.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8149.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
在行政院的一個組織架構裡面陸委會就是兩岸政策的一個主導協調的機關但是我的意思是說難道人事行政總署你們自己沒有一個獨立判斷的能力嗎像這樣子發函要求所有的公務人員公教人員都要拒絕有沒有大陸的身份證或者是戶籍等等的這些措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8150.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8170.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個沒有違反兩岸人民關係條例的規定嗎跟委員報告就是因為兩岸人民關係條例就是陸委會它是主責的機關所以我知道它是主責的機關但是我的意思是說人事行政總署不是陸委會的小弟你們自己應該要依法令要去判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8171.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8189.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那麼本席事實上在去年3月20號的時候,當時也曾經質詢過,詢問過人事長,就是如果說有公務人員沒有簽署查核這個竊結書的話,就是沒有簽署這份這個拒絕書的話,是不是會有不利的後果? |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8189.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8194.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那麼當時人事長很明確的表明說公務人員如果沒有拒絕的話沒有公務人員如果沒有拒絕不會有任何不利的影響也不會懲處可是呢本席發現現在在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8206.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8234.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個人事總訴所發的這個公文裡面卻明確的揭示軍公教人員常態化制度化的查核要自115年正式實行而且未完成拒絕未在大陸涉及領有中共身份證定居證護照者是不可以禁用或調任簡單來說就是如果有公教人員他沒有去簽這個切結書的話未來是不可以禁用或調任 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8236.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8245.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這是人事總署的意思嗎你們這樣做難道沒有違法的情況有不到連結的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8248.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8275.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
跟委員報告就是兩個階段就是上次委員詢問蘇委長的時候那是第一次的初步的專案查核那的確是那次的查核因為是陸委會第一次辦理所以那個時候的確是沒有拒絕沒有所謂的不利處分的部分就是切不切節其實後續沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8278.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8283.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
後來陸委會有召集相關的機關包括這個任用的法治機關大概整個討論的結果常態化的查核這是今年的這個常態化的結論可以進行常態化的查核嗎我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8294.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8317.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你依據兩岸人民關係條例裡面第九條之一的規定非常清楚台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或是領有大陸地區的護照這很清楚對不對那你至於有沒有其他的這個身份文件的問題有沒有違反兩岸人民關係條例我覺得這很清楚啊不然的話你陸委會就提出修法民進黨委員提出修法在沒有提出修法之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8317.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8336.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
很清楚就是台灣地區人民不可以有設有戶籍或是領有大陸地區的護照可是呢接下來就是說你們現在呢依據這個現在你們等於說進一步的要求要求大家自己去切結沒有在大陸地區的其他的身份證件 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8339.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8355.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個明明就是我們政府單位你應該要依法自己去查核的為什麼要要求所有的公教人員都要自證自己無罪啊自己沒有違法這樣的做法基本上是違反法治國原則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8357.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8374.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我想富士市場應該很清楚知道我們台灣我們中華民國是法治國家你政府你要就是自己去查核更何況現在你可以透過戶籍系統的勾結出入境管理的勾結你自己就可以去查為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8377.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8403.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
把這個行政的責任要去轉嫁給所有的公教人員然後讓他們大家自己要去簽竊結書然後自己說然後我沒有在大陸有任何的這個文件其實你知道嗎對於公教人員來講也許簽個竊結書沒有花幾分鐘的時間但是這是一個涉及到尊嚴的問題為什麼我們政府機關要求公教人員要簽這個竊結書因為他就推定 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8404.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8427.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所有公教人員你可能就是會有洩露國家機密而且呢對國家不忠誠的這樣的一個情況所以才要公教人員自己去竊竊然後自己去證明自己沒有違法自己去證明自己是無罪的這是非常打擊公教人員的士氣我希望啊 這個副任市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8434.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8451.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你回去要跟人事長你們要好好的談一談就是應該要樹立起人事總署的作為公教人員的大家長的這樣一個風範不要處處都配合陸委會你們真的不是陸委會的小弟 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8453.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8472.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
兩岸政策 固然有兩岸的政策那陸委會自己今年無能然後呢 要求所有的公教人員都要配合他去做這樣的事情真的沒有道理啊你們查不到公教人員有共諜的情況事實上呢 我們知道現在這個這個共諜都在高層在國安會 在總統府 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8473.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8494.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
結果沒有積極的去查把這些特殊機關的人員進行查核然後反而是把所有的責任全部都轉嫁到由公教人員自己去承擔我覺得這是非常非常不合理的事情不能夠以國安之名去凌駕法治這樣子非常打擊公教人員士氣的所以我希望你們要去檢討這個函這個違法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8501.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8514.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
就是凌駕法律違反法律保留的這樣的一個發函基本上應該要自行撤回或者是說重新再發一個函對於這部分來做一個更細緻的一個解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8518.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8538.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
接下來本席還要再講另外一個問題我們過去常常說公務員是鐵飯碗可是根據最新的統計還有媒體的調查這個鐵飯碗不僅生鏽而且已經出現大規模的崩裂現在是正在上演一個大逃亡潮去年公務員辭職超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8540.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8555.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
三千人整體的離退高達一萬六千人更嚴重的是高補考人數12年基本上少了九萬人雖然我們的錄取率是創新高但是還是補不滿基本上就是不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8556.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8576.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
考 考不取 而是就算考上了 人家也不想來所以我覺得這是一個很嚴重的問題喔最新呢 有一個新聞就在說台南市安南區有一個計事他一個人要管上百座的公園這壓力當然很大 結果情況怎麼樣他的兩位課長就直接自願降職調走 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8578.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8600.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
目前我們看到台灣的公務員的體系是基層出現了大逃亡潮那麼事實上根據你們人種在書面報告裡面有講你們115年的中央政府機關預算總額數在228000人對不起是228000人那麼比過去4年是有增加可是呢其實依照我們現在的中央行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8602.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8626.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
總緣額法裡面的規定我們機關緣額的總數最高上限是只有16萬900人所以請問人事長為什麼會出現這樣的一個落差這看起來就是我們機關的人就是需求是大的可是你現在總緣額你只定在16萬中間差了6萬多人結果呢我們不聘正規的公務員反而都是用很多的約聘僱人員來取代公務員這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8630.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8658.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
報告 那個總原法是16.09萬人是他的上限但是總原法裡面有一些排除在總原法的規範的部分所以那個22.08萬人裡面大概有13.8萬人是總原法規範的範圍另外當然有8萬多人是非總原法的範圍然後通通納到這個中央政府總預算來那是這樣一個區別那至於剛剛委員提到那個多元人力那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8658.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8672.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我記得前面也有委員有詢問到這個問題多元能力的部分那個運用在中央政府機關大部分是在醫療機構跟大學啦 學校就是比較多因為他們的屬性的關係是 謝謝婦人市長謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8674.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8680.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
本席希望你們可以徹底的去檢討這個問題我們中央機關的總員額法已經訂定很多年了如果說應該要上調整個總員額的人數我覺得人事總署應該就要提出相關的修法不能夠講說我們機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8694.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8708.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
法定的緣額總數是框在16萬可是實際上我們的需求是很高的然後你現在就是大量的用約聘僱代理等等這些的這個方式來取代珍貴的公務員我覺得這沒有辦法提升行政機關還有公務員的這個就是減輕公務員的壓力也沒有辦法提高行政機關的效率所以這個部分的話是應該要進行通盤性的檢討好嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8722.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8750.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
還有最後一個問題就是說其實這次造成公務員逃亡潮的一個很重要的原因就在於薪資待遇其實我們知道公務員的薪資待遇基本上雖然說看起來是每隔幾年也許會調個2% 3%但是整體而言我們現在軍公教人員的薪資待遇跟業界真的是不能比那其中很重要的一個原因就是在於我們的縫級表 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8752.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8758.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
很多年都沒有修了吧請問我們現在的鳳級表已經實施多少年了我們最低的一個鳳級是從300委任一直等開始是34,880元 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8773.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8789.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那個鳳級表大概是從民國五十幾年從五十幾年到現在但是它是因為它只是它是定點數啦其實它的實際的薪資是可以去做調整的所以一直在調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8791.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8816.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
本席的意思是說因為這個縫級表你看是從民國50幾年制定到現在實施這麼多年有關於縫級的縫級是一個問題然後縫點本身也是一個問題那麼這個部分難道不應該與時俱進去做適當的調整嗎如果說縫點太低的話我們可以往上面調當然你們現在呢透過這個所謂折算額因為一點不等於一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8817.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8841.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就是一點不等於一元這個部分的話也是應該要由行政院人事總署要積極的去調整就如果你們不調整縫級跟縫點的話至少折算額一定要提高啊否則現在大家變得說看到我們的薪水有調漲也許都只是調的專業家級或是其他的家級但是並不是本縫並不是這個本薪來調整所以這會影響到 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8844.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8867.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
優秀的人才他會不會願意進入到公教體系裡面來服務跟委員報告我們的心跟委員一樣我們希望這個公教體系的員工都會得到很好的照顧然後我們的進台條件也可以很好那剛剛委員提到那個三萬八那個是一直等的三萬四千八三萬四千八那個是一直等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8869.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8898.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
就是那個大概一年大概就是出等考試大概幾百個人其他的進來的我們一年大概這個高考也會有七千多人大概都那個比例那個薪資像高考幾個起薪其實是五萬五所以當然整個基層的部分需要高考起薪五萬五基本上也是低薪了我昨天還在跟我的學生在那邊聊天他們研究所畢業進台積電您知道他們年薪多少嗎將近三百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8899.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8918.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
因為台積電是富國神山 它的條件比較好所以現在變成說我們很多的公務機關裡面你又找不到優秀的理工人才進來這會是一個很嚴重的問題當然我知道這個議題很大然後今天在這個短短的質詢時間也沒有辦法回復完美我們這次的調整我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8919.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8924.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
委員剛剛提的那個意見 像一些比較基層的那個到要用什麼方式去照顧這個我們都會在這次通行調整裡面一起去考慮是 不僅最基層的連這個所有的一整體我希望都能夠通盤的檢討否則現在委任一直等著起薪三萬四千八百八十元比基本工資多一點點而已你說還會有什麼人想要來當公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8945.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8953.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 那麼最後本席要希望人事行政總署在一個月之內可以提出一份我國人員風景制度改進的研究報告 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8955.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8976.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
一個月之內提出一份公務人員的諷刑制度改進報告我們提是可以 但是這個法案的主管機關是權序部沒關係 那就還是麻煩請你們提然後就是針對折算額的部分這個因為諷刑 然後諷刑的調整畢竟你們是實質上面的主管機關報委員我們來提 但是可不可以給我們兩個月的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8981.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9002.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那就給你們兩個月的時間好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來我們請蔥嘉斌委員蔥嘉斌委員蔥嘉斌委員不在接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接下來我們請葉元之委員上台詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9013.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9016.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
主席好 麻煩請副人事長好 我們請副人事長上台備選 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9021.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9047.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
副院長你好因為我之前我一直在關心教育人士的問題因為現在在教育現場有出現行政大逃亡所以大家一直在想說當然行政大逃亡最主要原因是因為行政量過重我想這不是人事總署的問題應該是教育部的問題不過大家想說在行政總量一邊在希望能夠推動減少的情況之下也能夠提升行政人員的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9047.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9071.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那但是因為這個規定都很死啦其實在教育的現場很多人是這樣建議我不知道可不可以研議看看就是把有一些學校就是教師或行政人員的續薪方式或是加級的方式可以跟一般的公教脫鉤當然這個我覺得這個比較大你回去研議一下但我之前有一個比較具體的建議就是說比照地方因為你們在去年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9072.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9092.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
人事總署有跟全序部有討論說可以讓地方的一些主管或二級機關的主管的職等把他提高那這次已經通過在去年底已經通過所以職等提高行政加級就提高那現在在學校裡面校長跟組長的職等實際上我覺得是很低啊那有的校長才九職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9092.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9119.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
然後有一些組長才八職等甚至七職等七職是偏低所以我曾經很具體的建議你能不能夠研議一下把學校的向校長行政人員的職等提高那當時說會給我一個結論嘛但是現在一直都沒有好像這個事情就石沉大海不了了之所以我不曉得因為好像第一次質詢你以前是人事長所以你了解這個狀況現在到底進度到哪裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9121.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9136.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
跟委員報告就是就如同剛剛委員講的這塊是教育部主管權責但是我們也是上次上次委員有關心其實我們有教育部開過會也有跟委員有做過報告沒有啊有個書面的報告哪有哪有 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9136.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9155.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
然後 你就現在講嘛 所以現在這一塊就是剛剛提到的那個植物劣等的調整就是主管機關是全序不如來那我們大概也稍微有交換過意見就是校長的劣等因為他會跟教育行政主管機關的劣等去考量那個教部要去考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9156.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9181.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以是推給教育部不是不是不是推給教育部雖然我們不是我們的執掌但是其實不是每一次我們問教育部教育部就說找要跟人總爭取然後人總就說這是獵館是教育部這個你們都是是不是小學都學過踢皮球沒有我昨天才又找過找教育部所以有一點越組代跑但是所以你就是勇於認識了又變成踢皮球又變勇於認識了你不要這樣鼓勵我這樣鼓勵我一直踩線 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9183.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9208.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那我跟你講啦 這個關心教育現場的人聽你這樣講話都聽不下去啦政府一體的嘛每一個人講到什麼事情就先推再講然後多做一點事就說 我越竹帶跑沒有 我跟委員報告啦就是那個學校裡面我們跟選民部大概也初步交換過意見就是他的那個植物列嶺的那個安排非常緊所以他調一個就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9210.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9223.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個整個的變動那個波動會很大所以調整上的難度是調一個會波動很大那你今天在地方政府調都不會波動很大看你怎麼做而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9225.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9250.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
你不願意做的話理由就一大堆啊你願意做的話都找得到方法啊委員的意見我們會我們會轉給委員不是我覺得這不是教育部一個部會的問題啦就像你今天你幫地方的職等提高那其實人事總處、權序部講好願意做找地方來開會就做了啊那為什麼光是學校職等提高比如說校長90等變10職等他只是行政加給增加一點點嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9251.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9255.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那這個部分是一個尊重嘛委員那一件最後大家可以這樣互踢皮球然後事不關己牛年馬月我覺得大家聽不下去啦委員我們我們會我們會來請你再兩個禮拜以內好不好針對這個問題再給我一個答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9267.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9289.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
然後還有上次我有問國民旅遊卡的問題包委員可不可以一個月一個月好 一個月對 兩個禮拜但希望不要一個月又一個月日復一日 月復一月然後再來就是上次有講到國民旅遊卡我是說現在國民旅遊卡一萬六已經很久沒有調整了大家一直有個誤會以為說國民旅遊卡是公務員的福利其實不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9291.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9308.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那個副人事長你應該很清楚啊國民旅遊卡是不休假獎金對不對 你強迫他休假14天嘛所以給他1萬6嘛讓他去消費嘛那你如果把國民旅遊卡取消直接給他14天的不休假獎金的話其實他們領的可以比這1萬6還要更多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9309.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9330.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以大家不要一直誤會說國民旅遊法是公人的福利可是這一萬六已經實施這麼久了不能檢討嗎上次我問你們回我是講說對啦五月去年五月有開會啦但是因為財化法的關係哇這個也可以扯到財化法我真是服了你們所以呢不能有結論然後說哎呦因為台美牽涉談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9332.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9354.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這跟台美牽涉談判也有關係我真的覺得人事行政總署真的超級會推連國民旅遊卡到底要不要增加額度實施那麼久到底要不要調整你都可以去扯到台美關稅談判跟才化法不然你把國民旅遊卡取消嘛你把不休假獎金給公務人員嘛他們更歡迎啦 你信不信 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9357.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9371.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我對於你們回覆我的我跟你講不好意思因為我時間到了我對於你們的回覆非常不滿意我們去找個地方去開會啦有部分的地方政府在財務分擔上面還有一些意見啦所以那個是源頭的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9372.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9384.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那好沒關係沒關係前面給我的報告扯到這個東西我是不能接受的請你再給我一個詳細的說明好不好因為我先到了沒有你給我一個詳細說明我再針對你詳細說明再來跟你討論好不好那這個可以會後馬上給吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9391.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9405.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
上次我就不接受嘛你講的東西就不在你們的資料裡面嘛你們給我們資料都粗糙到不行嘛如果資料很詳細我不用來這邊問嘛你會後給我一個比較詳細的資料謝謝好那是不是可以這個一個禮拜內一個禮拜好謝謝謝謝委員的指教好謝謝葉元之委員接下來我們請徐宇甄委員上台詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9428.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9432.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
謝謝主席喔 我們請富仁市長請富仁市長上台配選 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9436.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9458.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
委員好夫人市長好我想針對公務人員的待遇其實大家都非常的關心那我想這也關鍵於就是政府能不能留住人才穩住基層還有維持行政效能的一個根本的問題所以本席在3月25號的時候有在這個司法法律委員會有當時有質詢書人市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9463.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9488.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
因為去年呢就114年的經濟成長高達8.68%可是今年度卻沒有調薪所以那時候我就問樹仁市長為什麼明明經濟成長這麼高可是卻沒有真正的回饋在我們的這個公務員員的身上那當時樹仁市長跟我講說他要允諾我他會去跟院長爭取另一個調薪的機會就是今年度而不是指明年因為當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9490.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9514.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
今年度的我們的經濟成長也預測可能會高達百分之七以上甚至更高所以明年度的調薪我想你們會努力的爭取但今年度當時蘇仁市長有允諾我要爭取另一個調薪的機會那他是說四月份會跟行政院長報告那我想知道四月份蘇仁市長有沒有跟行政院長報告那現在的進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9516.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9544.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
跟委員報告就是這個署長跟委員報告的是我們就是照那個方向在做那應該口頭有跟院長報告過我們也是往這個待遇的調整這個方向但是他會跟著制度化的過程什麼叫制度化的過程就是我們會隨著總預算的進程來進行還要開會還要就是調新的方向我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9544.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9563.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
就是意思說總預算如果審查完的話你們就可以提出調薪是這樣嗎我們之前大概就有包括因為院長好像也有對外講就是我們希望在一個這個橫評然後又可以照顧所以院長針對在今年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9563.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9579.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
要這個調新的今年度喔這個部分他是支持還是持保留態度還是要求這個我可能要就是我知道我們人長有有照這個方向去做報告但是他整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9580.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9599.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
整個這個方案我們還是要研擬嘛 那就細節的部分研擬完以後我們還要整個 而且現在已經五月了喔再研擬下去那今年度就過了 那所以怎麼爭取今年度那個調情的機會因為現在其實我也知道各界都會有各界的意見我們還是要把各界這個不同的聲音要拿起來 對那大概你們總共一個進場吧 我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9601.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9621.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們的規劃都會在六七月會開會那如果六七月開完之後是馬上會補漲就是補條還是要等到明年嗎我們會把這個相關的建議送到行政院去所以目前就是也不知道進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9622.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9646.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們的進度大概就是我們現在規劃的方案然後六七月會開會然後再送給行政院那這送給行政院又要多久的時間這個應該會在總預算送出來之前應該就會有個明確的對我覺得既然全國的工人員都這麼的辛苦覺得大家共享經濟成長的一個成果那個也是我想也是這個卓院長說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9647.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9668.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以希望針對這個事情你們要積極一點因為畢竟是為全國的公務人員來請命那尤其是我們現在可以看到就是說為什麼報考公務人員的人數越來越少就是因為待遇相對於其他的行業事實上是低的而且說實在壓力又大風險又高那如果你沒有辦法給公務人員一個合理的薪資的話當然我覺得會導致我們現在報考公務人員的人會越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9675.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9690.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我想這是根本的問題之一那還是希望副人事長要針對這個部分希望能夠積極的去向行政院來爭取那另外再請教一下副人事長就是我們人事總署是行政院人事行政的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9691.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9707.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那你們要負責人員的這個元額的管理還有組織的配置跟行政的效能照理說應該是要示範這個精簡行政核實編列預算專節支出但是我現在看到151 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9708.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9717.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
第115年度的預算發現了一個現象就是在你們的一般行政向下的基本行政工作維持從3592萬增加到3917萬增加了325萬元那在說明裡你們是說減劣汰換空調箱610萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9729.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9742.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
但是增列了北棟辦公大樓管理費935萬9千元那請您先看一下114年度的管理費就是北棟大樓的管理費是970萬元115年度是1357萬6千元增加了386萬9千元您看一下這個數字對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9753.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9769.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
請問一下在你們的說明裡面口頭報告那一本的第20頁有提到說人事總署增加的部分是增列了辦公大樓管理費360萬9千元這個都是你們寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9776.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9804.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
針對北棟辦公大樓管理費現在開始就出現了三個數字一個是在你的說明裡增加了935萬元然後我們把114年度跟115年度的預算把它看過之後是增加386萬元但是你的口頭報告又說是增加360萬9千元請問一下明明都是北棟大樓的管理費為什麼有三個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9805.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9808.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
哪一個才是正確我們立法院可以審查的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9811.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9834.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
跟委員報告立法院審核三是我們預算書的數字這個中間的過程跟委員稍微做一個說明就是那個所謂的管理費其實是我們北棟有好幾個機關然後會按照樓地板的面積去分擔它的費用我們大概四分之一是 那增加935萬元是嗎應該是說管理費上面是增加360 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9839.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9841.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
整個北棟大樓的增加的部分是210萬? |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9858.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9860.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
因為我們要省預算喔但是有這麼多不同的數字我們也會從這邊可以發現那你的預算的編列是不是有福報的關係而且一棟北棟大樓的管理費光你們就要增加935萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9872.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9887.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那個跟委員報告就是因為他那個360萬是有其他的細項因為預算的科目有關係會所以應該是360萬元嗎然後那個是大的項目那實際上那個管理費的增加大概210幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9889.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9911.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
管理費的增加跟委員包括過去的編列是不足的狀態它是按那個面積去分擔聽起來管理費是管理而已怎麼樣花這麼多錢其實它裡面還包括水電費用都是用這個方式去支應所以水電費裡面有另外水電費的項目啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9919.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9942.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
因為我覺得在這邊其實都說不清楚喔那我們在審這個你們的預算的時候一定也是不了解這個狀況尤其是你看你在說明書裡面我是覺得就是說針對這個部分的話你們在編預算的時候事實上要給我們很明確的一個了解就像我現在問你比如說北東大樓辦公大樓的管理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9943.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9961.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那其他你們占四分之一嘛可是我看你們今年的這個員額還減少了五人照理說你們今年的人數減少不可能增加辦公空間嘛一定是一定是原來的辦公空間然後又增加了那麼多的經費那其他的人其他的這個其他四分之三的單位有增加這麼多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9969.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9972.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我們這個管理費的部分呢其實都是依照那個大樓管理小組115年度提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9985.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10001.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那個概算的額度然後我們是各機關按照比率來分攤所以我們分我剛剛講的是說你這不同的地方說明欄是一個數字然後你們的口頭報告是一個數字我們實際看到預算編列又是另外一個數字那到底是要審哪一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10003.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10013.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
因為我們那個說明的這個部分其實我們都有加一個等我們是會把很多細項合併起來因為它受文字的限制那是不是會後因為時間的關係會後再到辦公室來說明因為還有一個最後一個問題就是有關你們的合理配置組設人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10022.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10049.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這個單位經費從114年度的161萬2千元增加到270萬3千元增加了109萬1千元增幅高達67.7%那因為這個單位本來就是要去管理就是提升原額調配的一個效益可是我們現在看到的是反而就是你們不但沒有減少經費反而增加尤其是我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10050.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10060.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你們希望各機關都能夠精簡人力達到最好的效益配置可是實際上你們自己還在這個科目新增了一個約用人員那不是很矛盾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10063.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10079.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
跟委員報告 其實這個議題剛剛莊惠雄委員也有詢問過可能我們表達的不夠清楚這個部分其實是因為我們今年度按照115年就是按照中央政府計劃總原文法的規範是要進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10081.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10100.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
一個比較大的第八次的這個整個的圓額評鑑那今年我們的主題就是AI政府這個運用AI的這個部分希望能夠就剛剛委員其實也關心很多就希望我們公園的工作能夠被減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10102.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10115.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以必須要用比較新的科技進來協助處理這些工作loading的部分所以這個部分增加的部分是我們今年會增聘20個AI領域的專家學者進來給我們做專業的意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10121.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10125.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
因為這跟我們一般的認知是這樣我們都認為導入AI可以減少我們的公務人員的loading減少他們的工作可是現在發覺反而好像增加了你們設置了一個WebHR的新增管考作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10143.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10160.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那我們感覺說AI理論上是要降低我們人工成本而不是人工作業的成本但是現在發覺好像一直在增加預算然後增加員額因為說要導入AI這樣好像有點跟我們認知的不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10160.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10189.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
根據委員報告在啟動之前一定會有些投資那啟動多久了因為不可能說一次都在啟動今年我們就是特別要做這件事情尤其是你剛提到的第八次的這個第八次的原額評鑑因為你第七次的原額評鑑已經對39個機關提出456項的評鑑的建議那請問一下上一次的456項的建議你們完成了多少解除列管了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10191.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10203.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
委員報告大概九成都已經解除列管都已經解除列管了那所以說等於你們456項已經九成都解除列管代表都已經得到這個他們的建議都已經都已經改善了嗎還是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10207.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10223.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
有朝那個方向啦就是能夠以他的資源的狀態達到那個已經有朝那個方向那為甚麼解除裂管以他的資源的狀態能夠做到的狀態我們就給他解除裂管 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10224.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10241.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那你們這個原額評鑑的到底到底有沒有要落實的是什麼原額評鑑就是希望協助機關在能力的配置上運用上它的效能他們如果有朝這個方向進行你們就會解除劣管 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10242.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10264.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那這樣的話事實上他到底有沒有真正做到也不知道那所以這個原額評鑑好像有一點虛擬了事因為原額評鑑兩年就會進行一次啦所以這個是持續因為今年為什麼特別提說因為今年你馬上要這個第八次了嘛所以我們希望這個原額的評鑑是有意義的而且是真正能夠協助我們也是朝這個方向在努力對 因為既然第八次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10265.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10272.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
馬上就要進行我希望是有效益的而不是只是為評鑑而評鑑這個部分我希望我們每一筆經費都應該要花在刀口上要花在這個真正有需要的方面那否則的話我們這個人事總署一直要求各單位你們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10281.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10302.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
精簡你們要這個效率但是呢自己人事總署卻沒有做到我們的想法會跟委員的一致還有就是剛剛講的AI的部分既然導入AI是為了降低我們這個人員的這個工作的loading但是不要說到這樣感覺上好像反而更增加大家更多的一個工作的上面這個我們會去避免我們會去避免好謝謝好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10307.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10332.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
好 謝謝徐宇甄委員那我們所有登記的委員都已經發言完畢那我們詢答這結束委員質詢的時候所要求的相關提供的相關資料和這個或者是已書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會那這個委員蔡其昌徐欣盈兩位委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10335.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10362.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那今日議程是討論所列二案審查行政院人事行政總署等相關的預算案我們報告跟詢答完畢那均作如下的決議我們另定期繼續審查那審查委員會針對本日議程所列的討論事項的預算提案請於5月13日也就是星期三下午2點以前提出我們預時就不受理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10363.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10375.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
本日會議進行到此明天上午9時繼續開會審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院所處主管收支部分等私案現在休息謝謝大家 |