| IVOD_ID |
17410 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17410 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-06T08:34:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-06T10:46:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:11:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e2c43aff6c47feb9aee52440ebdac74e92d343e5acb26ceb0b22bed4b43012165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
四、審查委員林月琴等21人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
五、審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
八、審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
九、審查委員王正旭等23人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
十、審查委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
十一、審查委員張智倫等19人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
【第一案及第五至十一案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【逐條討論，不詢答】
【5月4日、5月6日、5月7日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:13 - 10:46:00 |
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現在繼續開會本日會議成為繼續審查行政院函請審議資源回收再利用法修正草案等11案接著我們來介紹在場委員王振旭委員盧憲毅召委廖偉祥委員以及列席官員環境部彭啟明部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1867.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1887.601 |
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資源循環署賴盈盈署長許志仁副署長石秉興主任秘書環境管理署劉瑞祥副署長法治處林芬處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1896.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1923.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
內政部國土管理署曾勝峰科長建築研究所阮中批主任秘書地政司張翠恩專門委員經濟部產業發展署周宇新副署長商業發展署嚴和慶科長有到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1928.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1953.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好 能源署翁素貞主任秘書民業部林業及自然保育署邱黃森檢任濟政資源永續利用師吳軒軒濟政畜牧師吳興宏聘用研究員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1957.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1984.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
農糧署謝連一科長漁業署陳柯仰科長衛生福利部醫事師卓麗萍檢驗濟政法務部法制司林黛麗副司長交通部交通產業發展及國際事務司林茂雄副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1986.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2011.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
財政部複稅署吳秀琳專門委員國家科技及技術委員會南部科學園區管理局關嘉明主任秘書行政院公共工程委員會技術處張益文檢任計政援助民主委員會土地管理處廖益群專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2023.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2037.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
做以下宣告 巡曆本日不處理臨時提案有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報 現在繼續進行資源回收再利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2037.95 |
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2060.236 |
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法修正草案第二輪的討論討論保留條文時先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見為立本法案第二輪的討論環境部依據星期一委員對保留條文所提的意見被有回應的條文對照表我們就請環境部發給在座的委員好請發 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2075.711 |
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2097.141 |
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報告主席那個委員都有了現在進行本案第二輪討論周一時暨保留七條先討論院版第九條請環境部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2098.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2116.773 |
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跟各位報告那我們第九條的部分這個那天呢是環境部這邊呢因爲就是盧委員比較關心這個我們原住民地區的循環事項所以呢我們在你修改內容部分有建議第十一項原住民主資源循環事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2118.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2142.371 |
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原住民地區的資源選擇事項由原住民族及環境部主辦各個中央目的使館就能協辦那只是原住民委員會的代表提出來說事實上因為很多像前面的這個農業什麼農業或者是建築其實在原住民地區都有一些這個辦理的事項那建議不用特別來列這個第11款 |
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2142.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2163.427 |
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原住民族的這個地區那我們現在是建議說原住民族我們把地區改成把刪掉就是變成原住民族資源循環事項由原住民族委員會及環境政府主辦各中央目的使館專協辦建議這樣的內容那請各位委員來是不是可以照這樣的方式來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2165.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2189.762 |
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委員們有沒有意見謝謝署長那署長跟園民會的我們主辦的官員是按照剛剛署長所說的那我們就同意把它按照院版這樣所以召委事實上按照院版就不用增列啦就不用增列第11款那陳靜蕙委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2193.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2206.562 |
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這邊是想詢問主管機關因為你們含括了非常多的部門當然我們怕有些部門在推動他們原本的業務的時候也會有他們的本位主義所以會遇到一些挑戰我是想問一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2208.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2233.879 |
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因為你們他們每一個部門到底有沒有要認真做或是有沒有要自己編預算或是你們要如何對他們的績效做考核這個你們有沒有考慮要設立一個資源循環跨部會的聯席會議的機制由行政院去定期來召開解決不同部門之間可能對於資源循環這樣子的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2235.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2241.666 |
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他的執行的程度的差別這樣子的爭議這樣就不會有環境部去做單打獨鬥來請行政部門說明那剛委員報告那在這個部分呢我們是在第11條有來設置一個資源循環的就是有一個訂定國家的整體資源循環的計畫那裡面的計畫會把我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2259.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2284.237 |
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這個架構跟外目標來定同時也會對外做檢討那同時在12條我們有一個這個各部會要來共同溝通的這個平台就是資源選推動會不過這兩個條文呢在上次禮拜一的討論也有保留因為有不同委員不同的意見但是第11條這邊是五年五年檢討一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2287.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2310.234 |
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但是每年會還是會對大家來公佈我們這個執行的情形可是你們這樣就是沒有考核的效果啊因為你們只是每五年或者是你說你可以增加到每一年檢討一次可是你只是做檢討你並沒有對每一個部會有他的績效考核的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2316.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2343.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們在這個每年報這個成果的時候那這個院核定的時候就會來檢討了報告委員那個我們如果看到11條11條裡面上次有通過的就是說第一個是5年的資源循環的計畫要檢討一次然後其他的下面就是說中央主管機關及中央目的事業主管機關依前向資源循環計畫推動資源循環由中央主管機關重整 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2344.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2368.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
各中央目的事業主管機關推動行行每年每年編寫資源循環推動成果報告這個要報請行政院核定之後對外公開所以這個這個程序就是報請審核就是在我們環境部這邊所以這個部分我們會照這樣的方式去做整理那待會呢12條裡面也有一個資源循環的推動會也有一個單位等於是也包含民間的參與也會來審核審議類似這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2372.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2391.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
計畫在裡面所以待會可以討論到12條好謝謝那其他委員有沒有意見第9條沒有沒有的話我們就照行政院提案通過那接下來我們針對保留條文的第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2393.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2406.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
然後請行政部門先做說明是那跟各位報告那天有幾位委員有提供意見那首先就是王振興委員他有提出一個修正動議他希望在第一項是可以有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2409.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2433.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
这个推动会呢可以协调中央主管跟中央目的水源局院有关本法的重大政策的评估执行与运作那同时呢也要去设置推动会设招集人由环境部部长次长那委员任期是两年由相关政府机关学者顿号专家那其中学者专家及环境保护代表等政府机关以外的代表不得少于推动会人数的二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2434.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2449.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那另外在盧委員這邊呢他是主張呢就是推動會是由環境部部長來指定次長一人擔任那他有建議要增列援助民族代表那援助民族代表不得少於推動會人數的三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2449.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2465.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那林月琴委員這邊呢就是在第一項呢他是建議曾烈耀行政院院長來指定政務委員擔任召集人負責召集督導相關部會研議協商評估整合制定及推動前項資源循環政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2466.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2486.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
这个措施那其中在第二项推动会的组成里面呢那官方委员应由相关部会首长或副首长来担任那只是各部会的政策的制定推动与报告那此外就是在比例部分呢学者专家与环保团体代表各占三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2486.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2507.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
提供咨询与建议事项那在林书恩委员这边呢在第一项那林委员是主张说这个要核定第三项锁定的行动计划那同时这个委员会呢是由院长来指定这位委员担任那负责召集负责的事项就是召集相关部会来 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2508.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2532.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
研议协商评估整合制定与推动前条资源循环政策与这个措施那在组成的部分呢那林永文是主张说各职司要来这个担任这个政策的推动与报告那同时学者专家与环保团体代表各占三分之一来提供咨询建议事项那环境部这边你修改的内容呢我们是建议说 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2533.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2549.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在十二条的第一项呢我们把这个得邀集我们就是中央中央委员执行这个前条第一项第三项的职权得邀集相关政府机关学者顿号专家及环境保护代表来组成资源学院推动会 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2549.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2571.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那以下减身推动会那他的职权呢是来负责资源循环的重大政策及提供咨询意见那此外就是推动会的这个召集人是由我们建议是由环境部部长来担任那此外就是在这个组成的部分呢我们建议呢是由政府机关学者顿浩专家 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2573.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2597.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
环境保护团体及产业代表组成那其中学者专家及环境保护团体那建议是比照现行条文不得少于二分之一那以上是这个环境部的修改内容然后我们这边是这个修改内容以中整了这个王委员还有林岳勤委员林淑文委员的内容那提出了一个修改内容以上报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2598.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2607.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好因為我的版本跟所有委員的版本跟你們還有個差異的就是我們是你們是用的我們是用音 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2608.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2630.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
雖然你剛剛講有納入所以我認為本來就是說剛剛陳經理委員也在講到第9條的時候就覺得說是不是要有一個能夠讓各部會能夠動起來那你剛剛答覆的也有說11條12條也都有在做這樣主張可是12條用德的話就相對的事實上是比較沒這麼強制那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2631.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2648.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你講說剛才回應人家第9條的時候講成所以那反正有這個會可是這個會如果是得的話根本沒有什麼意義啊因為是得嘛不見得一定要設所以我認為事實上是要因這是我的這邊的意見來其他委員有沒有什麼意見民俗分委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2651.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2667.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 我們還是要回到這個11條來看11條是講說我們要訂出屬於國家籍的國家整體資源循環計畫然後報行政院核定然後第二個就是說每年都要編寫檢討的資源循環推動的成果報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2671.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2679.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
基於這樣子所以我們才認為說你除了剛剛第九條的那一些人那一些部門要來參與以外事實上鞭策政府部門可以繼續往前的你們讓專家學者環境保護的團體一起進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2693.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2720.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
應該要組成這樣的一個委員會推動會然後來協助國家把我們講第十一條因為這一條講的是第十一條嘛十一條的這一個不管是成果檢討或者是訂定國家或者是五年一次的這個檢討的國家這個計畫或者是要訂定計畫的時候來協助我們這不是很好的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2721.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2726.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我也是認為說這個一定是要因這個是第一個因至於說我不會堅持說要指定行政院這個層級我可以同意到部裡面這個層級但是事實上在部裡面的層級也是有一些麻煩的就是說你要跨部會跨部門然後你要大家都來認真的討論我想你一個部會去跨部會要大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2752.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2778.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他其他部會來的成績也不會很高啦這個就是為什麼我們當初要行政院的成績來介入的原因只有行政院出面了其他各部會才能夠整合才能認真看待啦一個環境部你要去召開一個這樣的一個推動會事實上其他部門就這樣蓄以為夷很可能是這樣子那再來就是說那到底整個推動會的組成應該是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2782.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2799.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
照過去來講專家學者環保團體是不得少於二分之一可是事實上這個也很容易取巧就是說到底專家學者跟行政部門很好的居多嗎所以專家學者可以稀釋環保團體代表這個是我從一開始就講的我認為這個專家學者跟環保團體代表這樣子放在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2810.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2832.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不得少於二分之一看起來好像不錯 事實上是可能也是一個爭點啦因為專家學者就是可以稀釋環保團體所以我才會覺得說環保團體至少要三分之一啊專家學者環保團體不得少於二分之一但環保團體不得少於三分之一啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2839.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2860.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
請問委員我也要呼應一下剛剛淑芬委員講的因為我們回顧很多其他的法律最後諮詢委員會就會輪於蓋章背書的委員會所以如果他並沒有實質的表決權或者是最後主管機關也沒有採納意見也沒有付說明的義務那這個推動會的功能就會大幅的縮減 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2861.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2879.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以我只想我去找了一下其他縣市的案例比如說高雄市苗栗縣的氣候變遷相關推動會他就有明定說專家學者以及環保團體不得小於總人數三分之一或二分之一並且對於推動會的資訊公開會議記錄揭露這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2882.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2901.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我有看到那個環境部可能對於像碳費這樣子討論的會議紀錄就透明度就是蠻高的所以會知道說哪些人有參與那可能大家也看得出來某些專家學者或者是環團到底是不是橡皮圖章還是都是具有公信力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2901.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2922.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我再講這是剛剛講的這個除了比例以外你是不是有一個透明度的條款比如說對於會議記錄啊討論的內容委員名單出席狀況決策的方式都可以在指定的網站公開並且建立民眾的提案參與機制這樣子接下來先請王振旭委員後面再請林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2928.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2957.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好謝謝主席針對這第12條也謝謝剛剛署長的說明我們其他委員也有做深入的討論那針對於把這個學者或專家能夠分類謝謝部理這邊的採納因為我們也了解這個部裡面有其他的法條其實也是用這樣的方式讓學者跟專家有更獨立的一些處理模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2958.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2978.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以我想這樣的方式的確能夠展現對於學者跟專家之間的差異性那也謝謝針對推動會的設置召集人的部分至少當初我們是想說是由市長來處理那現在部長願意把這個責任擔下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2980.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2997.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
就好像剛剛所提到我們希望未來蘇貞媛所擔心的這種情境可以盡量減低就是跨部會之間如果他們要奉派來出席的時候至少那個層級應該要在部長的要求之下至少能夠解決相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2999.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3024.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
另外有一個後面就是在修正以後的第二項最後我們希望學者跟專家之間來一個頓號而不是學者跟專家以維持他的一致性有一個問題要請教就是說在你修訂內容裡面的第二項把產業代表也納進來不曉得有沒有特殊考量因為我們知道說產業代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3025.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3048.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們當初會把學者跟專家頓號分開就是可能這些專家裡面會涵蓋到產業代表所以現在又把這個產業代表納進來我們當初所擔心的一些利益迴避的部分是不是會有不同的考量所以這邊也看布里針對為什麼要把產業代表納進來有沒有一些特殊的想法以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3049.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3054.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
林淑溫委員我再講一次部長我希望你們要記得這個法我們要解決的是什麼而這個問題現行的問題是什麼我在講白的雖然我們在講資源循環再利用繼續循環使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3068.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3077.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
可是事實上我們這裡最大的整個行政部門整個社會整個國家最大的問題就是事實上是失去市場價值的這一些廢棄物 號稱產品失去市場價值的所以你在這裡跟我們講說什麼如虹是不是 那個股票上市過如虹他們把那個寶特瓶重新抽殺然後重新做成紡織 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3098.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3102.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
業的這個新的商品這個不用討論啦這個都很有高度的市場商品價值我們就講白了最大的問題最大的量就是爐渣底渣轉爐石或者是像以前台樹廠跑出來的石灰 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3117.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3129.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
就是這一些那這一些當然是可以再利用可是就台灣而言這些廠商這些廠商我們今天要管的就是這個東西失去市場價值為什麼他的產品會失去市場價值因為他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3135.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3142.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
沒有嚴格的管理而且不符合品質市面上經濟部所訂出來的商品的品質標準都不符合用下去之後會出問題所以我們在這邊講說就是這一些大量的本質上過去我們就是叫它叫做廢棄物的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3157.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3178.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那我們現在把它美化那個名稱說不是美化是也應該要這麼做啦我們應該要把這些東西循環利用上要好好的管理要不斷的循環利用因為事實上你去採砂石來當那個集配料然後到那個混凝土裡面去這個砂石不能一直挖山嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3179.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3198.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那如果你的那個爐渣其實是好好的把它的瓢洗然後日曝經過好的安定化穩定化然後成本要花下去有足夠的空間那你把它混到混凝土裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3198.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3204.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
事實上還是可以用可是台灣在執行面就是做不來過去就是給經濟部他們也不管現在納到你這裡來他們的品質我們是希望到我們環境部來統一管理讓他的品質可以提升然後這樣子大家各部門都好好的把他們這一些事情都做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3220.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3222.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那所以這個引進社會關注的力量就是我們講的專家學者引進這個環境保護團體然後去檢視各個部門各個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3235.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3258.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
他們所訂定的循環利用的計畫國家級的整體循環計畫到底是講空話還是講實話到底是真的要解決好好的面對這個問題然後要真的要推動循環真的是要節約自然資源的使用還是須以為宜我講白了就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3259.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3285.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
如果我們真的要做讓外部的人讓社會裡面關注的人進來這個推動會來幫忙檢視各部門所提的到底是可行的或者是說還是很不願意面對大家還是想要閉起來然後蓄以為疑一下我覺得這個就是差別在這裡所以我們在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3287.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3290.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
不是因而已還要問說你要給這個推動會的民間的組成的這一些人你要給他什麼職權我們要賦予他們什麼職權在這個推動會要給他什麼職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3304.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3307.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那給他什麼職權你都要簽署他組成是誰所以就只有三個嘛應該就一定要設第二個他的職權要到哪裡第三個他的組成你到底是要把這一個權力分享也不算是權力把這個責任分享出來讓社會和民間一起來參與到什麼程度就是這樣子人家也是來幫忙扛責的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3329.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3351.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
定出了國家計劃 我覺得十一條你們的困難就是說定出了國家整體資源循環計劃但是五年間老醫師不打緊每年要寫一個推動成果報告我知道你們困難就是每年寫一個推動成果報告各部位如果是虛偽的被打槍了嘛所以困難在這裡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3352.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3362.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
但是我們知道不得不這麼做嘛因為是地球上台灣的自然資源有限但是不要忘了這塊土地能承載的廢棄物的那個capacity |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3368.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3389.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們就講你總量以前我們做到總量管制像採礦採水你要總量管制那我們的電糊爐煉鋼無上限的一直煉一直煉鋼鐵還可以輸出可是煉出來這一些廢棄循環利用產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3393.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3396.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個台灣有足夠的含容量這塊土地有可以允許鋼鐵業者一直練練到這個環境是台灣這塊土地在承受然後他去做外銷嗎還是符合我們國內的需求產業的需求就足夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3412.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3425.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
還是要讓他把垃圾繼續留在台灣我們叫他產品然後找不到好的出路去再利用然後讓他可以一直賺大錢然後所有的環境成本都我們這塊土地繼續承受說穿了這個就可能會牽扯到產業的總量管制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3433.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3439.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
因為結合到產業總量管制,大家就沒有人要照拍人所以你們的古傳,民間的專家學者就去嘛我講白了,我們都知道有這種問題啊可是不行啊,我們台灣這塊土地就沒有這麼大的capacity可以去承載那個產業永無止境的一直擴張再擴張嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3458.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3469.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
對不對 這個電糊爐電糊爐煉鋼產業跟他採水泥採到挖山一直挖到把水泥可以出口這樣子對嗎就像我們電糊爐煉鋼一直煉產業擴張煉出來鋼鐵不斷的外銷再外銷再外銷這樣子對嗎我們他們的事業產出的廢棄物我們要循環利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3485.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3489.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們有這麼大的消化的空間這塊土地有這麼大的可以承載的這個空間嗎沒有啦其實我們其實要講白了啊真的是我們就說鋼鐵業要讓它這樣繼續下去嗎你說抵渣好了啦台灣的人自己這個產生產的垃圾我們就一定要消化那是不得不嘛我們自己的人生產出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3513.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3538.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們要修,我們的底渣一定要想辦法要去化可是它的鋼鐵業就跟我們焚化爐的概念就又不一樣了底渣跟爐渣,一個是我們自己做的一個是它垃圾拉在台灣,它去賣出去國外它去賺大錢,這是不一樣的概念的那國家的循環推動計畫到底要怎麼定?當然是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3539.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3557.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
是要考量到這一些,你不是經濟部門說我們要一直擴張再擴張,產業要擴張再擴張,就記者去訂的,不行啊要制衡嘛,就沒有那個課程不能吃那個下游啦簡單來說,這塊土地,沒有那個課程不能吃那麼大的下游啦好,來,行政,呃,來,盧先生召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3564.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3584.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好謝謝主席那就是針對這第12條我的部分就是因為已經因應第9條把我們這邊的版本是按照用版所以我這邊同意是把原住民主代表刪掉不過最主要還是要跟部長這邊說明就是我們在14年9月1號公告的那個環評委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3586.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3614.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們原住民又缺席了而且我看到有些黃團是說批評說海洋生態的專家缺席所以我希望在一一六年的新的環境影響評估的那個審查委員會裡面會看到新的名單會有原住民的代表這邊十二條這個部分我們就把原住民主代表這個不得少於三分之這個部分刪掉謝謝行政部門等下針對於德跟英 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3615.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3634.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這是一個 因為如果說要回應第9條跟第11條你應該是要用陰啦然後另外一個 像剛剛陳英文委員也講到說那你的如果事實上是推 既然已經事實上未解決11條的話你的推動委員會只有給諮詢意見最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3637.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3653.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
就聽聽大家意見嘛 大家來這邊講完就結束了那本來就是要去幫助第十一條如果五年後才交這個報告然後很多東西都執行OK那你環境部就照單全收那真的有對我們整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3654.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3671.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
環保議題有更好嗎甚至今天要做到經濟循環或者是資源循環的話根本就是沒有辦法本來是想透過這個委員會這推動會來幫你解決各部會如果沒有辦法好好的去把這個五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3672.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3699.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
的這樣的一個計畫把他執行好然後倒出來交出來報告不是敷衍了事的話那不是本來在這第12條是重中之重要來協助所以我說我也同意像剛剛跟淑芬委員一樣就是說沒有一定要到行政院院長的來指定我們的政務委員可是希望能夠真的他有效能不是在這邊大家只是讓大家來講講話而已講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3700.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3702.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
沒有任何具體的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3703.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3730.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
你不會只寫一個說提供諮詢意見因為過去我們在民間的時候常常就講說你不可以多那個因為你也不可能干涉我們的決定因為你們就是諮詢我只是聽聽你們的意見那我告訴你不管是專家學者或民間團體他們自己大家都有他們自己要忙的事情為什麼要來你們給意見那我就寫一寫書面給你們就好啦所以我覺得這部分勢必也要解決還有一個剛剛鄭旭委員問的就是說為什麼要有產業代表有沒有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3732.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3760.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
可能有一些但有一個部分你們考量是說那就一起來溝通因為畢竟跟產業發展可是要具體說明還有一個真的不要用所謂兩個合在一起專家學者跟民間團體最後可能最後變成不得少於二分之一的結果呢這二分之一裡面有三分之二是學者然後民間團體又再把它稀釋因為我覺得公民團體存在事實上是他們也做了非常多研究或對我們整個的環境的觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3761.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3773.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
想給予更往前的方向那一樣的也是在幫助你們在解決第十一條跟第九條的問題所以我覺得這幾個部分請你們好好來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3774.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3796.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好謝謝主席還有各位委員的意見那我這邊解要說明我先回答那個盧憲宇委員的問題就是環評委員的部分我們很樂意那但是因為我們現在機制裡面原住民的委員也希望說下一次在甄選的時候委員可以多推薦一下因為我自己可以勾的時候最後其實沒有原住民的委員在裡面所以這個部分未來我們可以來注意一下因為那個也要經歷這個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3798.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3825.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我針對第12條我們做了一個主管的設計中央主管機關我念一遍中央主管機關為執行前條第一項之第三項職權應按照我們的主席的指示改成應指示學者專家及環保團體代表組成資源循環推動會以下簡稱推動會下面的文字我們參酌林月琴委員跟林淑芬委員的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3827.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3840.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
負責召集督導相關部會研議、研商、評估、整合、制定及推動前條資源循環政策措施、逗號措施這個就參照林月琴跟林淑芬兩位委員的一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3842.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3865.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
下面就是說推動會的是召集了藝人因為我們過去這兩年的經驗裡面因為我們的政委真的非常忙碌所以基本上我們希望是不是可以維持由環境部部長來擔任因為我們目前雖然是部可是我們在很多的會議的經驗裡面部長來擔任各部會來的可能都是次長或是相關的代表也都還可以發揮全責 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3866.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3890.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那如果是政委來擔任的話其實他的開會的密度恐怕一年就一次到兩次沒有辦法那麼好而且最後負責的還是部長本身所以我是是不是讓委員可以讓環境部長來擔任這個召集人謝謝好那這個部分就可以請他們修改完之後再投上來然後由相關政府機關學者專家環境保護團體那我們把產業代表拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3893.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3907.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
政府機關學者專家然後還有環保團體所組成然後接下來呢其中學者專家及環境保護團體不得少於二分之一環保團體不得少於四分之一我們是提出這樣的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3908.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3922.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那最後呢就是說剛剛陳清輝委員提到了一個透明度的部分我們參佐別的法規裡面推動因為其實我們透明度的本身在現在的政府內部全數公開那如果要更公開更透明的話我們也樂意把裡面加入這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3923.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3943.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
推動匯資會議紀錄應對外公開但涉及國家機密或營業秘密者不在此限因為有些可能涉及到這個關鍵金屬戰略那種會議的話那可能就比較不適宜公開所以我們希望說我們可以加入這樣的一個透明度的一個條文在裡面那我們如果有同意的話我們就請他們投上來讓大家來討論謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3946.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3955.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們有沒有其他意見還是等他們把那個打出來之後再表示意見好來那麻煩你們把剛才部長念的文字把它打上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3973.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4000.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
因為前面的那個我們院版的文字一開始應邀集應邀集應組成我們改成應組成這個會前面包含了相關政府機關學者專家環境保護團體因為在下面就已經說了所以我們就改成應組成資源循環推動會就做一個修正那委員會主委有一人由環境部部長擔任任期兩年由相關政府機關學者專家及環境保護團體代表組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4001.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4021.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
推動會自召集人第一項對對對對請修改一下對就負責召集督導那個部分請參照這個李瑞琴跟李淑芬委員的版本請貼過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4099.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4109.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
分之一要加上去喔學者專家及環境保護團體不得少於二分之一就原來那個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4192.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4217.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那請念一次主席我們請我們副署長念一次條文第十二條中央主管機關未執行前條第一項至第三項職權應組成資源循環推動會以下簡稱推動會負責召集督導相關部會研議協商評估整合制定及推動前條資源循環政策措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4219.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4245.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
推動會製造及人藝人由環境部部長擔任委員任期二年由相關政府機關、學者、專家及環境保護團體代表組成學者、專家、環境保護團體不得少於二分之一其中環境保護團體不得少於四分之一推動會之會議紀錄應對外公開但涉及國家機密或營業秘密者不在此限 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4248.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4261.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
委員有沒有意見沒有的話是不是請行政部門把印出來讓我們現場委員 因為改蠻多的就由我們幾個提出修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4269.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4288.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
抱歉我可不可以詢問一下就是說其實我剛才擔憂的就是說因為不是行政院層級你跨部會要去討論這個國家的循環推動計畫那如果來的層級太低各部會各部門來的層級會不會太低那要不要要求我們幫你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4291.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4297.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
幫你們解決這個問題法律裡面要不要來規定說各部會要由副首長層級來這個參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4304.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4328.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
如果我們法律定了那他們要遵循法律將來的成績才會高如果你各部門會議要來制定這一個國家整理資源循環計畫的時候你來了來了一個是他的問題他沒有辦法解決他只是來負責報告你覺得你作為一個部長作為這一個叫做推動會的召集委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4332.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4352.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
你下面的人各部門來的成績太低你有辦法定的出來一個好的這個國家計劃嗎要不要我們幫你設定這個立法的時候就幫你設定因為你不是行政院也不是政務委員所以跨部門的時候我們幫你設定來參加各部門各部會至少都是副首長成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4356.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4370.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這樣子對你們是比較有效的我們是不是這樣子就各部會來與會的都必須由這個副首長那應該怎麼寫法務單位來請加上去機關委員代表這個對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4374.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4400.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
一個部長要發去他的部會發不上去啦 我們老實說啦我們在法律要幫他把這個強制性規定出來要不要把我跟淑芬委員提的就已經有寫了我們的第二項 相關部會首長或副首長擔任給他一個彈性啦好 謝謝委員 我們可以接受好 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4412.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4424.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
如果他們派個司長來 你說你們這個計畫訂的什麼東西有問題司長回去說我再請示一下然後你回來 再回來 你這個會永遠沒辦法開得好對啦 首長或副首長放進去代表這個國家對這件事情的重視也代表立法院認真看待這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4440.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4444.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個是我們給我們彭部長的一個武器啊謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4473.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4494.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
副首長以上嗎?副首長以上副首長以上就副首長以上就可以了好那個再念一遍,推動會 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4498.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4514.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
跟國園報告第十二條第二項修正為推動會製造幾人一人由環境部部長擔任委員任期二年由相關政府相關政府機關代表由副首長以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4533.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4539.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
因為你要先補成然後才能說其中那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4581.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4585.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
法務部的法制是那個副市長林黛麗可不可以也針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4634.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4657.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
一個其中 這個要加個其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4661.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4672.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
其中要加在那裡等一下這邊要加前面你給他講一下組成後面其中加在這邊加前面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4690.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4694.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是不是唸一次然後印出來讓各位再看過一次請印出來第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4705.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4728.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
中央總經常為執行前條第一項至第三項職權應組成資源循環推動會以下簡稱推動會負責召集督導相關部會研議協商評估整合制定及推動前條資源循環政策措施推動會制召集人一人由環境部部長擔任委員任期二年由相關政府機關學者專家及環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4729.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4754.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
保護團體代表組成其中政府機關代表應由副首長以上主管擔任學者專家環境保護團體代表不得少於二分之一環境保護團體代表不得少於推動會整體之四分之一推動會之會議記錄應對外公開但涉及國家機密或營業秘密者不在此限市長說哪個其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4760.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4787.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那個法務部法制司的副市長林黛麗有沒有用以上有沒有什麼特別有什麼好就是第二項的一二三第三行學者專家及環境保護團體代表不得對我們是建議這邊再加一個級以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4791.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4792.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好 委員們有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4824.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4851.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
法治局的那個可不可以確定一下那委員們有沒有意見沒有的話請應助來作為修正動議然後讓我們大家簽好那我們先進行下一條等會再回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4853.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4868.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
來保留條文的第22條那第22條的部分就是在週一的時候那林淑恩委員版呢有這個提出說在第六款要甄列及時更新物流追溯與品質驗證資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4870.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4887.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那這個部分呢因為我們考量到那個就是其實歐盟它是叫virtual time或者是說是像那個電池呢它就是有一個就是動態的資訊可是如果我們把這個東西翻譯的話用即時更新的話可能我們在業者遵循上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4887.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4899.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
會不容易他會覺得好像是要急更新所以我們建一個條文就是第六款就是依中央主管機關鎖定期限更新流向追溯及品質驗證資訊那同時把這個歐盟現在一個最新的資訊的一個作法那把它寫在說明欄 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4905.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4929.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那此外就是在你修正内容里面的第一项我们这边有提到那天是因为王一鸣委员就是认为说如果有些是营业上的困难那可以用替代方式来为之那本来我们的条文是但揭露资讯有困难者得以替代方式为之那不过因为这样子可能会比较不清楚所以我们是在建议 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4930.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4950.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
这第一项的一个修正条文变成但揭露资讯有侵害营业秘密之余经向中央职管机关申请合格者得以替代方式为之也就是说比如说因为他有些是产业链他那个从国外的一个产业的一个原料资料那有困难的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4951.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4967.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
要跟中央主管機關申請不是任何人都可以所以我們想說有這樣的一個特別的情形的時候可以有一個這個替代方式維持這個替代方式那這個就是你現在條文就如現在螢幕上打上的那敬請各位委員審議委員們有沒有意見蘇芬委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4976.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4984.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這個我們有意見這個意見是來自於說我們其實就是要處理的是這個數位產品護照這種概念所以我們希望能夠建置產品的數位護照那這個即使 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4996.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5017.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
即使記錄了這個東西我們檢視一下歐盟的這個狀況可能至少要到透過自動化記錄方式動態更新那你們在講營業秘密到底秘密要怎麼樣用揭露的東西會涉及到秘密嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5020.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5034.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我有點搞不太清楚他只是在講說材料再生力量的比例包裝的材質集中量可維修性耐用性維修方式回收拆解和再利用的方式這一種類似的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5036.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5061.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這一種內容會涉及到營業秘密嗎我有一點懷疑另外再來就是說事實上整個國際的大品牌在在自動化即時的物流追溯和品質驗證資訊上已經相當的普遍國際的大品牌裡面又特別是跨國的我們知道的ZARANIKEUNIQLO |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5064.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5066.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
還有什麼我看一下他們都全面採用RFID那RFID這種東西事實上也可以追蹤到他的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5086.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5099.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
建置他的數位護照所以RFID不管是成本還是使用的普遍性都相當相當的高那所以在這種狀況裡面我們為什麼要建置這個東西一方面也是來自於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5104.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5123.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個東西的讓使用者可以知道怎麼回收怎麼拆解你的再利用再生的比例利料是怎麼樣然後這個東西就是物流和產品的品質這個絕對沒有涉及到營業秘密我不知道你們為什麼會扯到營業秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5127.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5136.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
為什麼會講到說如果原料來自於國外是一種秘密我們有叫你標示原料要來自於國外或國內要寫嗎現在我們的情見跟委員說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5144.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5166.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
是那跟委員說明其實我們這數位護照主要依據是歐盟的已經2023年公告的電池法那其實他們的技術還是以二維條碼QR Code的方式因為在我們民眾的手機少的到那委員剛剛提到RFID的技術如果是一般民眾消費者是沒有沒有特別的讀取資訊他其實是沒有辦法了解的那以及紡織業的話我們國內其實是賣紗線出口到歐盟紗線也很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5171.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5185.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
每一根你都去追溯他的履歷資訊那我們已經有參查委員就是有新增第六款因為其實即時更新這件事情自動化技術我們殺現場也沒有辦法配合品牌商那邊他就直接跟供應商一直要給我資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5186.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5208.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以还是要有一个我们定期如果他有进到生命周期转换他要回收废弃处理的时候要协助去做资讯揭露就是揭露给一些回收商那有一个定期什么时候那义务者他可以去配合会比较好去后续的执行那是不是这方面就是营业秘密的话还有另外一个例子是那个特斯拉就电动车电池啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5208.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5232.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那個電池的一些材料組成使用再生料有沒有驗證過那個電池芯對他們來說是核心的技術那以及國內他要跟我們台灣政府揭露他也要問美國原廠能不能同意跟電池芯的廠商能不能配合那所以現在就是大家還是看歐盟的電池法2027年他怎麼去實施他也允許廠商用一些替代的方式或者是他可以選擇分級揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5233.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5255.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
因為其實業者怕是這一條被我們把他所有的營業秘密的相關資訊對所有的一般消費者都揭露可是業者希望保留他揭露的權限就是有一些是合作的供應商可以知道比較細比較安全的拆解模式方式他比較願意跟合作廠商來做揭露可是不是說一般民眾都知道你可以自己去拆那是他們不想要的謝謝蘇慧雅 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5259.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5269.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好我再講一次你們在講這個電池法可是我們歐盟2027年起就要針對就是明年就要針對所有進入歐盟市場的電動車的電池以及工業用電池強制執行還有紡織和服飾的這一些產品也要陸續跟進所以絕對不會只是電池而已連紡織連那個紡織的服飾產品都要跟進了所以你講殺線這個問題你到歐盟也是要面對這個問題但是我們就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5290.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5313.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們覺得這個所以揭露不是問題嘛在這裡一般人也可以使用手機NFC讀取RFID啊所以這個一般人你說你揭露了一般人沒有辦法閱讀這個不是問題啦2027以後絕對更不是問題啦但是我們要講的就是說你在講特斯拉的或是其他的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5315.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5339.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
因為我真的是想不懂就是說我們的揭露上面所標示的要揭露的項目有牽扯到營業命運嗎你說的再電池芯它的再生料我們會揭露到那個程度嗎所以你是不是說要揭露這一些那揭露的程度到哪裡你們可以授權你們訂定你們的執法而不是說不揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5345.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5373.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
一定要揭露但你涉及到基民產業而且只有基民產業才是這樣子其他不可以喔還有容器上的一物一碼都是一樣啊我們就是要一物一碼因為回收了所有的集合認證他才會很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5374.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5396.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為大家都知道一物一碼然後你回收多少量也看得清清楚楚你有沒有回收也看得清清楚楚業者怕的不是什麼營業秘密啦我現在才想起來業者不是在怕營業秘密業者怕的是你的數位護照出來了數位碼出來了一物一碼出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5399.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5406.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你有沒有回收 回收多少量這個都不用統計了都不用政府部門去統計也不用業者去統計那個系統就自動統計了我現在才發現原來你們這樣講我才想到業者怕的是數量回收率清清楚楚被看到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5419.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5438.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
應該是這個啦一物一馬而歐盟為什麼要做數位護照也是因為人家是真的要監督你的生產者責任原生責任你到底是回收了多少數量還有多少在外面流通你都不管而這一些流通不管的有可能就是環境的傷害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5441.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5460.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
對啦,真的,業者反對的是這個啦,他不是在怕我現在授權給你啦,就是說揭露的那個內容,我允許你授權執法去訂定但是一物一碼這個事情絕對不能夠在這個法裡面逃掉,一物一碼才能夠追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5467.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5481.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
各位報告那我們就是第一項那個揭露有困難者得以替代方式為之我們就在辦法裡面去定那至於說就是第六款我們揭露資訊有困難者得以替代方式為之這句話是什麼意思我就不懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5481.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5504.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
揭露有困難的人還是要揭露所以不能用這樣子替代所謂法律上所謂的替代方法是什麼我們不能用這個字眼清清楚楚的應該照我們的修正版本我提一個修正版本應該要建置產品的數位護照那要揭示的問題第八款才講說這個那個內容這個揭露的或是這一項的哪裡在講說揭露的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5511.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5541.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
到哪裡的話應該可以授權給行政部門去訂定不是你不能夠有困難者得以替代方式為之接到有困難得以替代方式為之意思就是說他可能就不數位護照了他也不掃碼了都不用那個了各位報告我們那兩句話就刪掉那兩句話一定要刪掉對就是接到有困難者得以替代方式為之我們把它刪掉那我們在辦法裡面來訂定就是要接到的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5542.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5549.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
你們想一下我現在在我助理現在給我找到一個H&M的他們的現在的做法就是說這因為2027歐盟的這一個新的規定他這個法規的風暴來襲所以時尚的產業迎向DPP和EPR的全面重構時代來臨那現在呢H&M的他們從源頭設計到末端處置的循環生態佈局是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5571.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5592.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
他們面對法規帶來的結構性挑戰全球快時尚巨頭H&M他們選擇化被動為主動在集團內部推動跨越設計生產回收的全面轉型其中他們在DPP還有EPR的核心佈局他們第一個他們數位轉型前瞻他們推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5596.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5601.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個將數位產品護照就是DPP視為推動轉售和自動分檢的核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5605.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5625.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
透過為每件單品建立標準化的數位身份整合材質產地製造流程跟照片等關鍵數據不僅滿足了歐盟對資訊揭露的嚴苛要求更讓衣物在進入二手轉售回收體系時能被快速精準的辨識第二他們數據的技術投資藉由跟Trust Trades |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5631.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5651.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
TrustTrace的平台合作H&M成功將原本散落在上游紡織廠燃整廠的紙本或試算表資料數位化實現一鍵生成追溯數據的能力第三基礎設施的整合針對即將在2028年 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5656.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5663.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
2027還是吧上路的歐盟EPR法規H&M他們跟全球廢棄物管理巨頭就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5664.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5687.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
Remondus他們在2023年合資建立了Looper Textile Company還有Looper他就專注於二手機構跟廢舊紡織品的收集自動化分類和分選那目前在歐洲經營多個分檢中心在德國波蘭都有幫助H&M將末端廢棄物管理直接轉化為內部的資源供應鏈建構符合EPR的規範的閉環這個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5695.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5698.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以人家生產者是有責任的你看第四技術瓶頸的突破他們這個傳統服裝因為這個鋸脂纖維跟棉的混紡的材質回收難度很高混紡嘛所以他們透過創新回收技術的深度合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5713.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5734.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
突破這個技術瓶頸而且在孟加拉主要生產地建立了試驗跟分檢的系統將聚酯纖維混仿的廢料高效的分離還有還原為高品質的再生再生料叫這個叫re-sale吧跟再生聚酯確保產品責任能回溯到供應鏈源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5735.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5743.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
而且降低材料購置跟碳排的成本第五個他們還循環設計標準第六個他們嚴格化學管控所以我的意思是說沒有困難而且大家都知道歐盟的這個制度其實就是要從生產到回收到循環利用制度就是要這樣子定 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5762.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5765.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
一物一馬而且這一些生產者真的要與時俱進而台灣的產業已經發展到我們都已經是世界級而且可能是頂尖名牌的供料者 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5778.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5783.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
當你的頂尖名牌必須要符合歐盟法規而這樣子供料的時候我們的這一些供應商原料的生產商輸出的這些廠商不可能沒有跟著做 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5793.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5811.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
而我們他們都要跟著做歐盟的法規我們他就願意跟著做我們國內的法規還繼續這樣子說我們不願意你說特斯拉要不要賣到歐盟去他也要啊那他也要遵循啊所以這個東西不會是多大的障礙啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5815.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5820.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
但是如果說你對這個對那個我想啊對那個爐渣爐渣的業者他因為他沒有生產嘛電貨他的鋼鐵會啦鋼鐵會但他爐渣放曬放在台灣的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5833.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5846.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
可以放在台灣回來,他們就是抗拒阿嘛你會發現說,喔他的東西回收量太低了他們就是這樣做,還是說不會來,現在應該是繳廢制的吧所以繳廢制雙軌,我們在這裡繳廢制跟生產者延伸責任業者負責回收,這兩軌下去他們一定還是繼續選擇,不過他們沒有公告啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5861.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5881.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那個行政部門說謝謝林委員其實我們的概念是EPR生產者責任跟DPP數位產品護照這個目標是一致的只是說我們現在技術上要怎麼樣把現在可以做到的然後或是說未來執法去訂定的能不能寫進去這個條文是現在我們遇到一個一個技術性的一個問題我們請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5883.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5898.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這裡有兩個問題兩個層次第一個我們就是要一物一碼第二個那要揭露到什麼層次那揭露到什麼層次我們就說授權給你們但是我們不能退而是一物一碼這個你不能說技術上困難技術上絕對沒有困難的一物一碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5906.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5934.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
是跟委員對就不好意思跟委員回復一下其實一物一碼如果是寶特瓶是可以可是像電池模組的話它一個電動車的電池是1000多顆電池所以要一顆電池每個電池上面都一個代碼還是說現在是用模組的概念其實特斯拉就是歐盟那邊也還在做確認那所以一物一碼是沒有問題但是那個誤我們希望也是可以在執法的時候針對不同的品項再去定義到底你那個編碼要用模組還是電池對 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5936.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5959.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
你不能為了一個特斯拉然後就叫整個台灣全部都這樣子那如果特斯拉是一個困難的話那大家可以討論啊所以我們在這裡要透過自動化記錄方式動態更新它的物流追溯和品質驗證資訊我們就是在要這個東西啦那你特斯拉問題你們自己去想要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5962.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5965.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
大多數99.999999都沒有問題然後你告訴我一個0.00001會產生的問題然後告訴我們其他的99.9都要跟著那0.0001一樣這樣子不合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5976.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6000.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們像這個寶特瓶這個油碼我們會同意這樣做那只是說因為未來的產品它會很多樣性這種是這個容器可是有些它是物品類譬如說像這個車子啊這種它是一個整個組裝或者是電力那些它上面有很多個別的產品要去追蹤所以就在執行上面可能要有一些就是不同的方式要去考量我們只是考慮到這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6001.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6006.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那我们这个产品数位护照这个是就是要让这个产品的流向他的咨询能够公开透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6007.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6031.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
對啊,所以一物一碼是必要的數位護照也是必要的現在這個大數據時代的老人還在那裡所以我們現在告訴你就是說你講到特斯拉的生產商可是你有沒有想過回收的處理商回收的處理商他也必須要很快的了解材質的成分對於鋰電池的回收分類和處理也很重要因為對你們來講可能繳費就沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6033.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6051.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個跟汽車的生產商無關了可是對回收處理商來講如果不是數位護照然後用儀器去讀取資料難道還要一顆一顆去讀取這個靜態標示嗎這個就是不是21世紀的管理方式也不是數位化的時代的管理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6052.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6080.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那二手一分類沒有RFID難道還要這樣一件一件用人工去看嗎這個新時代新的產業你們不是考量到生產者生產的業者他們的方便你要考量你現行的制度都叫人家繳費人家幫你做回收但現在回收業者也必須要使用數位化的方式他才能大量的處理啊所以這等於是把工廠生產線的自動化管理延伸到產品的整個生命週期 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6081.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6105.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以可以避免人為的隨意變更偽造或誤善這樣子才是國家管理之道所以你不能只考到特斯拉這個公司的管理的成本你要想我們幫你做回收的人我們回收這樣要怎麼回收這個回收才是幫國家幫特斯拉插屁股幫這一些人插屁股然後進入循環使用我們也必須要有數位碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6111.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6117.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個技術上都沒有問題啦技術上絕對沒有問題要不然我們怎麼可能你去英利庫勞買20件通通丟到那個籃子5秒3秒馬上讀完了你20件買什麼商品通通都一看明了現在去英利庫勞買衣服不就這樣子在H&M也是這樣子50件丟下去也5秒了500件丟下去也5秒他馬上就掃完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6137.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6153.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那你到底回收了多少這個回收物你要讓回收處理業者我現在回收回來進去掃描馬上就知道我掃了哪些東西回收多少量一千二除你不可以看到特斯拉這間買車的時候很爽的賺很多錢他們的方便你會想到我們替你未來電池回收要怎麼處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6162.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6177.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好主席我們要不要好謝謝林委員那這一條呢其實我們第一個前面的那個但皆若知有困難者得以地帶方式為之我們先刪除掉那當然委員提到了第六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6178.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6207.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因為這個就是其實我們的DPP或EPR的這個精神是我們跟委員是一致的但是只是差異在說我們如何去把它文字化然後現有的技術當然未來的執法我們可以再訂的更多所以我們現在新修正一個版本現在正在打當中那也請委員可以來給我們一些指教那目前我們訂的是經指定應使用具唯一性之數位識別碼者並應揭露其更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6209.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6223.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
還沒有打完 這個我們待會就是用這條來來看看委員有沒有什麼更好的一個意見其實這個就是我們現在按照我們行政單位可以執行的一個方式來進行文字的一個描述主席是不是讓他們想 如果要很久我們先處理下一個還是怎麼樣好那我們先宣告那個第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6238.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6256.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們第12條我們就依照林淵琴委員、林淑芬委員、王振旭委員、盧憲憶委員及陳金輝委員共同所提修正通過那...好了我們請副署長唸一次第6條 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6259.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6273.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
包含第22條第1項第6款,經指定應使用具唯一性質數位識別碼者並應揭露及更新流向追溯及品質驗證資訊原第6款,遞言至第7款 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6308.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6313.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們的意見跟我們原來的條文是 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6316.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6340.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
不是經指定是全部咧你們這個經指定是啥意思我們授權給你說你揭露的內容可以有彈性但不是說哪些東西還要再指定一次因為你們已經指定了你們本來就指定了這些東西了那還要再經指定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6347.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6376.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
禁止定裡面的再禁止定第一項第六款應使用具唯一性之數位識別碼者並應揭露及更新流向追溯及品質驗證資訊更新要不要前面要不要加一個動態應揭露及 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6379.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6407.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
動態更新應使用具唯一性的數位試碼者我們來看看就是說你們第一個地項就已經指定了然後指定裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6409.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6434.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
要公告揭露的就是下面這一些東西那第六款是講我們本來就是因指定裡面因揭露的因指定裡面的因揭露然後你就講因使用具唯一性的所以你們這個數位識別碼不是每一個都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6437.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6451.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
沒有啊你這裡有使用就是不是每個都用啊這是第六款那個第一個音可以不要用嗎就是使用對啊你這個音字就是還有再讓你指定一次的概念使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6473.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6491.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
法治局那邊可不可以也釐清一下一個是口部的唯一和一個塑形膀的唯一這兩者的意思到底有沒有相同因為它現在的那個是使用具唯一使用塑形膀的唯一先也釐清一下可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6494.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6518.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
其實揭露也不用啊 因為這時候全部都是在揭露了使用 使用數位為什麼 具唯一性使用具唯一性的數位識別碼者因動態更新流向追溯及品質驗證資訊揭露兩個字不用 因為這個東西本來就是在揭露了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6525.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6550.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們現在是不是先有五分鐘來釐清一下這些他就說可以 他已經好了可以了嗎對啦 揭露兩個字也不用了啊對啦 因動態更新 揭露兩個字不用了動態更新好 請副署長再唸一次來 法治 等一下法治處的那個 署長您分是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6551.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6558.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
李清一下這個我剛講豎心旁的圍跟一個口圍有沒有差別用這個圍嗎好來那另一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6583.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6606.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
要改唯一強體式聯盟嗎?他改為巨額,只用巨額那一台巨額也不用吧?是不是?你為什麼不寫強體式聯盟?如果你的意見只有要所謂的寫實嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6612.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6632.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
可以釐清一下嗎如果用唯一是不是又有一個指定的概念是專業嗎你在立法說明欄裡面是不是可以講一下就是說這個第七款說第六款說指涉的就是一物一碼這個概念否則他們一般人看不懂在立法說明欄裡面講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6641.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6656.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那我們確定一下現在這第六款有沒有意見沒有的話我們就照行政院提案僅民營署分委員修正動議修正通過接下來我們去審 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6664.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6691.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
林淑芬委員的第26條是那跟各位委員報告那林淑芬委員的這一條我們就是做一些文字修正首先在第一項的部分我們有加一個括弧以下簡稱生產者責任組織那另外在最後一項就是再生資源為事業活動這個林委員是說廢棄之物品包裝物容器那我們是把它寫成說產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6693.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6722.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
因為我們在這個資源懸吊推動法盡量少用這個廢棄這兩個文字那產生就是說他產生的這個物品或包裝容器以上報告淑芬委員針對這一條第26條你的版本第26條有沒有還有其他意見基本上就是提供給我們辦公室看的這些嗎好可以好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6731.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6746.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
行政部門還有沒有什麼意見沒有齁那我們就依民主分委員的修正動議修正通過那接下來續審第保留條文的第36條 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6749.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6768.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
跟各位有人报告那36条那天是有王正俊委员还有林岳勤委员跟林淑媛委员提出了对我们现在院版的一个修正建议那王盛宇委员是建议说要由中央有关机关的同意那林岳勤委员跟林淑媛委员的版本比较类似 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6769.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6786.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那基本上就是要能够去提出这个目的还有做一些这个管控那我们就有按照已经有参考这个三位文的意见那提出了一个拟修正的内容那这个拟修正内容的第一项呢就是为促进资源循环技术的数位 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6787.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6807.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
科技之以的發展目的所以這是有一個把這個範圍局限在這個這個這兩個一個目的上面那第二項的部分呢是對於審酌創新實驗計劃他裡面一個內容所以我們要來去審酌他的創新必要性那同時中央指揮官在核准創新實驗計劃要附加實驗期間的這些條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6811.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6834.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那接下来在第三项的部分就是我们这个沟通的过程我们会有中央主管机关要会商中央及地方的有关机关那才能够来这个核准那同时排除的法律呢要能够去考量不可以排除涉及人体健康公安安全及其他重大环境风险的强烈规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6834.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6856.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那排除的内容呢我们基本上是把这个我们资源循环推动法以及废青法里面跟这个许可有关譬如说在内许可这边来是做一个排除也就是说我们今天在这个创新计划呢他的一个同意是特别提出一个计划那就不按照我们在一般这个在内机构除以机构申请一个程序来做那 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6857.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6879.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
同時在下一項裡面呢我們對於這個創新計畫的一個內容要有這個資訊公開那第四項最後一項呢就是第五項就是我們這些辦法呢由中央局管局來定制那以上是我們的女性內容那進行委員審議委員們針對第36條剛剛行政部門說明有沒有什麼意見我們看一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6899.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6915.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
但是我們還是要堅持一個因為你排除了這個2526還有廢清法的管理那我們希望傾向排除適用不得急於下列事項還是要堅守住 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6916.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6943.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
第一個涉及人體健康、公共安全或重大污染風險的管制規定第二個環境品質標準、排放標準或其他環境保護最低管制要求第三個民事責任、刑事責任及行政機關依法應採取的緊急處置措施這個你們沒有參裁我不知道為什麼你們要排除這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6944.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6969.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
你們只寫重大環境風險跟委員報告我們現在排除的第25條跟27條還有廢棄屋清理法你沒有27你26現在因為瞬移剛才27不能排除2727是因為那個是你是順下來的順下來的然後所以還有廢清法的時候要記清楚這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6971.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6998.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
27條是原來的26喔那我們就先寫26喔好好好好好okok我們先寫26然後廢棄物清理法第十二十四十八還有這個31363941都是我們許可事項沒有這個排放標準跟這個相關的民刑事責任的部分所以所以我們並沒有排除這些議題以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7000.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7004.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
如果沒有的話,那放上去就無聲大啞,萬一啊因為你們寫了重大環境風險你們講說涉及你們是寫不得排除不得排除涉及人體健康、公共安全或其他重大環境風險的強制規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7030.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7037.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
人體健康公安權或其他重大環境風險的規定我先請那個我們的法務部法制司長代替副司長那等一下請陳清輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7060.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7072.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
報告那個召委還有委員就是第一件事情我們因為我們那個行政部門他非常積極他已經調次把它順移成三七條但是為了我們那個討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7075.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7099.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
不要造成混亂我們是不是建議先還是把它回復成院版的條次這是第一件事情那第二件事情也跟各位委員抱歉一下就是剛才我們可以回到剛才第22條的那個唯一性的部分因為我們剛才向業務單位釐清之後他是指的是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7100.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7127.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
英文的那個only的意思那我們查相關的訴訟法那應該是口字旁的唯一那不好意思在這裡我們做以上的補充謝謝那22條我們先處理是不是就把那個第六款的那個訴訟旁的唯一改成是口字旁的唯一 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7135.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7142.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
來接下來再回來我們的來先請陳金輝委員發言之後再承認 請王振旭委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7143.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7172.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是我想請教我們的主管機關環境部因為大家對於資源循環創新實驗計畫就是會怕中間有排除很多基本我們應該適當的衛生處理但看到環境部有加了一些覺得有就是有聽到我們禮拜一的聲音但是我現在回想就是一個例子也就是當時風災的時候我們在屏東附近這個海上光電案場 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7173.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7187.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
他被風災吹了以後也是號稱是經濟部的一個創新實驗計劃結果他變成一個很大型的垃圾還飄到澎湖的外海等等的那目前的條文就有要求說我們要報備 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7188.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7199.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
被查還有事後提送成果缺乏實驗過程中的監督與居民的參與當某一項創新實驗涉及有毒物質的循環利用的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7219.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7237.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那另外我也是具體的建議啦這邊你有講到比如說風險控管或者是要清除乾淨等等的是不是這些辦理創新試驗的事業應該要提供適當的擔保或是提撥保證金以指引意外發生時候的應變還有賦予的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7239.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7264.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
還有賦予主管機關隨時終止權一旦這個實驗創新對環境有不利的時候就應該要立即停止並且恢復原狀因為這個也跟部長曾經討論過有些人他會先脫產然後就很難去追究這個他的清除的這些費用的責任這樣子謝謝接下來王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7266.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7283.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
謝謝 第三十六條的部分在第一項有關於需不需要經中央有關機關先同意以後再做申請這部分這個其實是一個程序的問題因為我們比較擔心就是說如果他有提出了這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7285.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7307.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這個計畫如果沒有先經過同意就直接去申請那會不會造成在處理上帶來一些衝擊或影響所以我們一開始的時候才會希望在第一項裡面要把這個計畫經過中央有關機關同意以後再開始做後續的申請核准辦理的這些流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7308.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7335.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那如果說變成這個原來或者是不需要經過中央主管機關同意的話那你這樣的流程會不會造成處理上的困擾如果沒有困擾的話我們尊重這個主管機關這邊的相關內容以上好 請行政部因為我的版本也是有要會商中央有關機關後才可以所以來併作說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7338.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7366.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
首先就是王正俊委員這邊就是中央局委員同意那我想這個就是基於說這個創新還是有些各部會他的一些專業啦所以我們在對各部會的專業這邊的諮詢還有這個協商是必要的那我們只是說在行政程序上面要同意或不同意他最後怎麼權我們還是想要說放在環境部那至於說部會的部分我們會用會上的方式來跟他共同來這個做協調這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7367.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7379.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那第二個就是陳俊賢委員這邊您提到就是說這些風險控管那事實上我們在這個這個條文裡面有去設定說它的規模規模我們到時候會來做一個規範是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7384.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7409.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
第二項的部分那此外就是資訊公開的部分呢是在倒數第一項就是我們有些這個第四項的部分對於我們實驗計畫它的一個內容跟排除適用的會做資訊的揭露那對於它的展延變跟撤銷費時也是一樣那在最後一項我們有提出說對於它的風險控款跟監測都有在進行在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7409.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7434.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那至於說因為保證金因為我們認為說這這個其實這個目的是要用於新創業者他在一個這個試驗的時候那不循一般的一個許可程序那他其他一些申報輸入輸出全部都是按照我們現在廢清法跟這個資源選擇推動法的規定所以因為現在在我們的廢清法或者是說我們的一個債務機構跟處理機構許可裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7436.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7461.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
都沒有去要求他有保證金這樣的制度啦所以我們建議說不要在這邊形狀計畫那反而會比我們現在的一個處理一個站一個一個許可的程序更嚴格所以建議保證金就不放在這裡來陣列好 請問薇薇好 謝謝那你認為你現在寫的對於風險的控管就足夠了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7463.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7486.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
風險的控管裡面我們因為有把這個在第二項的部分有去提出說中央主管計畫審查創新實驗計畫的地方要來審控他的一個風險控管跟環境的影響所以這個一個要件會放在我們以後在各部會在我們在環境部在執行的時候會把這個因素考慮進來好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7493.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7513.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
委員們對於現在文字上有沒有什麼樣因為它排除了就是本法還有廢清法而已所以在上面 我本來是想到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7516.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7542.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
因為在這個裡面可能重大的環境風險因為你是講其他重大環境風險的強制規定就涵蓋了本來是想說本來還有空汙水汙但因為我們沒有排除這些法律這些法律沒有排除所以要不要就是這樣因為人體健康公共安全或其他重大環境風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7546.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7566.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
在公共安全方面加上環境保護的最低管制要求而不是不得排除涉及人體健康公共安全然後換成環境保護最低管制要求的強制規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7568.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7590.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
就是把重大環境風險這樣是一個抽象的概念重大環境風險太抽象了我們給它具體一點就是環境保護法律的最低管制要求重大環境風險也可以留著 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7593.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7618.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
就環境重大風險留著好了啦那加上環境保護法律最低的管制要求啦好 報告委 我們把您的法案裡面有幾個我們可以看上面 認證加進去當中公共安全及其他重大環境風險之強制規定與民事刑事責任與行政機關依法應採取之緊急處置措施規定我們把它加進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7620.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7647.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
可以但是可不可以再加一個就是加一個我覺得可以但是加上這個環境保護法律最低管制要求這個有放有概念在裡面嗎也可以也可以啦這樣可以啦好啦這個意思是說等於跟環境接壤的部分都必須要符合環境保護的最低管制要求好 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7650.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7672.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
可以但是還有一個忘了就是說你們現在中央主管機關得還是贏會商中央及地方主管機關你們還是得但我還是認為贏我一直講就是說這個沙盒實驗要讓地方政府知情就是說有這一個實驗計畫知情的是說有這樣一個實驗計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7678.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7705.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
你們是會商而已嘛 會商還好啦 會商強度不高嘛會商還是會同會商還好對 如果還好是不是用英對啦 會商還好 因為我們只用字眼不是會同啊 是會商英啦好 改一下 好那還有沒有意見沒有的話我們就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7706.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7716.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
第36條就照行政院提案及委員林月琴提案林淑芬委員修正動議修正通過來接下來續審第39條來行政部門請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7722.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7748.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
第三十九條的部分呢就是林水委員內地有提到說我們在罰則的部分就是現行的條文是三萬到十五萬但是我們把條項變成一萬兩千的這個理由那根據我們報告我們這個條項是因為現在這個我們的一個再生資源的項目的公告其實裡面會做很細膩的公告譬如說他要去申報那過去呢因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7749.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7769.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
下限太高就3萬元太高那譬如說他要去申報一個這個他的一個產生量或者是再生資源量那有一些執行上的這個問題呢其實呢是不用罰到3萬元所以我們建議說在這個下限把他這個降低以免以後呢有些輕微的一個違規的時候會比較罰不下去那同時以後呢也會有裁罰基準來對各種這個處罰的樣態做分別的規定所以我們建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7779.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7798.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
就是在一萬兩千元這樣子可以維持目前的一個這個院版的條文以上報告委員們有沒有意見沒有齁沒有齁那我們就照行政院提案通過來接下來續審保留條文的第四十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7802.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7828.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好那第42條的部分呢主要是針對我們這個條次所以我們你修改的條文是36條第5項鎖定辦法以上報告好委員們針對保留條文第42條有沒有意見沒有那就照行政院的提案通過照行政院提案修正通過好 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7834.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7859.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
因為保留條文都已經討論完那做一下決議資源回收再利用法修正草案等11案審查完略並按據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論本案時由林昭吉委員林月晴補充說明請問本案是否需交由黨團協商好 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7863.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7886.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
沒有嘛那就不需交黨團協商那本法案條文中條次援引條次及法制用語調整授權議事人員整理相關法案說明授權行政單位提供本日會議到此結束現在休息明天上午九時繼續開會因為條次有更動所以要授權他們處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7900.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7915.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
被侵法更麻煩被侵法 五月十八 已經排了昨天通知五月十八 肯定也不想吃這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7931.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7931.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
來 一二三 |