| IVOD_ID |
17397 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17397 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-15-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-30T08:34:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-30T12:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:43:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eab2fe689bc7515e1bb54c368ea51f1df093824e7b654fef380f9b155ca47870035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。
四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。
五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。
六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。
九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。
十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
十一、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。
十二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
十三、繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
十四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。
十五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
十六、繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。
十七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
十八、繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。
十九、繼續審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十、繼續審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。
二十一、繼續審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。
二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十四、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十五、審查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第七條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。
二十六、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。
【逐條審查，第二十六案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】
【4月29日、30日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:47 - 12:18:00 |
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13321.79721875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
38.08 |
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39.272 |
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谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
138.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
139.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
198.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
201.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
244.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
246.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
584.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
585.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
812.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
814.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
955.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
957.48 |
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谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1557.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1558.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1611.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1612.96 |
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好繼續開會,繼續進行討論事項,請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1627.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1656.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
繼續審查行鑑院含情審議國家安全法部分條文修正草案案繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人拟據國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人拟據國家安全法第13條及第13條之一條文修正草案案繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人拟據國家安全法第4條及第8條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人拟據國家安全法第三條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1658.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1678.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
繼續審查委員沈伯陽等20人委員王定宇等16人分別擬據國家安全法第2條及第7條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員沈伯陽等20人擬據國家安全法第3條第8條及第18條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬據國家安全法增訂第19條之1條文草案案繼續審查委員黃潔等16人擬據國家安全法第2條第3條及第7條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1687.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1707.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
繼續審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬據國家安全法第13條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員王美惠等17人委員賴瑞榮等17人分別擬據國家安全法部分條文修正草案案繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬據國家安全法第7條第8條及第8條之1條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1708.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1733.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬據國家安全法第2條及第7條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬據國家安全法增訂第13條之1條文草案案繼續審查委員王定宇等16人委員吳佩義等17人分別擬據國家安全法第2條及第7條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員郭育晴等18人擬據國家安全法部分條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1734.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1752.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
繼續審查委員李昆成等16人擬據國家安全法第4條及第4條之1條文修正常案案繼續審查委員徐富奎等20人擬據國家安全法部分條文修正常案案繼續審查委員鄭天才等19人擬據國家安全法第6條條文修正常案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1753.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1775.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
審查委員李昆成等19人擬具國家安全法部分條文修正常案案審查委員林楚英等17人擬具國家安全法部分條文修正常案案審查委員林一進等18人擬具國家安全法第二條第七條及第八條之一條文修正常案案審查委員陳秀寶等20人擬具國家安全法第二條第七條及 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1779.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1802.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
及第八條條文修正草案案,宣讀完畢好本日審查法案第一案至第二十二案,業經本會於一百一十五年一月七號本屆第四次會期第二十次全體委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1805.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1826.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
報告及詢答結束決議均另定期繼續審查因此本次會議進行繼續審查來首先介紹在場委員及列席官員先介紹王宏威委員張志倫委員陳永康委員許宗慶委員張宏祿委員黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1834.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1859.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員接下來我們介紹列席官員內政部常務次長吳唐安吳次長警政署副署長李文章副署長大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑副主委還有法務部檢察司司長張曉雯司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1863.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1873.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
今天比較特別有邀請到國家安全局第三處副處長陳副處長國防部作戰及計畫參謀次長是作戰準備處處長吳東達吳處長司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1889.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1889.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
有,有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1913.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1938.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會退儲級副處副處長陳貞蘭副處長那其他我列席官員我就在這邊沒有一一介紹那就本日議程新增審議法案請提案委員說明提案要指有沒有提案委員要說明李坤城委員林儲英委員林一錦委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1940.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1947.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好,如果沒有的話,列席機關準備的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1965.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1981.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
抱歉我補充宣告昨天內政部及所屬機關預算截止收建時間關於內政部國土管理署及所屬國家公園署及所屬建築研究所等機關預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1983.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2011.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
含該機關附屬單位預算非營業基金及所屬財團法人行政法人等預算部分關於直轄市縣市政府一般性補助款內政部國土管理署及所屬國家公園署及所屬部分所列預算提案於115年5月11號星期一中午12點截止收件這補宣告昨天的部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2012.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2031.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
今天要審議國安法案,那因為有程序發言那我們就接受這些程序發言,那我們是不是時間以三分鐘好不好好登記發言的委員第一位是張志倫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2051.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2071.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員早那今天是我們國安法修法的主條討論那本席在這邊認為現在這個國安法的修法還沒有達到全民的共識很多民眾也不知道這次修國安法的具體內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2072.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2087.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
本席尊重李博弈召集委員因為這是當時我們的共識我們開了一次質詢兩次公聽會可是相信在聽過所有專家學者對於這次國安法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2088.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2116.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
充滿了爭議的內容才知道說這次我們國安法的修法其實包含了非常多的問題第一個這是國安法是假借國安之名行未來政府審查人民言論監督人民網路安全自由只是簡單的在法條裡面定義的四個字叫做未來如果違反社會安定未來即將有可能處以刑事責任以及罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2117.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2133.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那大家可以回想一下在上個月3月19號在3月26號非常多的學者已經特別強調出來難道未來我們台灣人民的言論自由網路自由就是要因為這個社會安定危害社會安定而接受到處罰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2135.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2163.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
以及我們看到等一下國安法如果進入主條的時候未來審查人民言論自由網路自由的主管機關居然不是司法也不是我們的國安單位所以主管機關啊居然是未來會成為內政部所以今天內政部在這裡 劉世芳部長不在難道未來我們要修國安法讓內政部劉世芳部長套上無限手套給他無限權利來審查人民的言論自由網路自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2164.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2181.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
以及未來我們會讓內政部成為凌駕任何機關的行政機關來審查人民所有的言論自由嗎?本席非常不能接受用這樣子含糊的定義只要違反社會安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2182.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2211.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就要處罰未來會判以刑責以及今天是支一條錯假訊息的認定也是由內政部主管的行政機關來去做審查的一個動作只要未來大家的網路訊息只要有違反內政部單方面認定網路屬於危害國安或是違反社會安定或是現在講的利用國安的問題來政治宣傳就可以限制所有的內容下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2211.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2229.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我要跟各位在座的好朋友報告現在台灣是號稱最民主法治的在亞洲最民主的一個社會現在正在走的是民主的倒退路我要跟所有網紅願意在網路上發言發聲的各位好朋友跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2230.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2251.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
現在這個國安法修法完全沒有黨團共識我也要呼喊我們的劉士芳部長當時你剛擔任內政部長的時候你來到辦公室跟所有在野黨的委員好好討論消防法的修法我們後來三讀通過今年你即將要修國安法帶上 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2251.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2274.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
無限手套無限的行政權今年我沒有看到那個當時認真為人民打拼想要幫人民修消防法的劉四方部長現在難道你是想要讓賴清德總統幫你戴上無限手套要欺負全民老百姓讓台灣民主倒退的劉四方嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2276.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2299.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 謝謝那最後我要拜託我們今天的主席這個修法完全沒有共識所以我希望在等一下我們所有委員逐條程序發言完我們休息五分鐘是不是來溝通一下到底發生什麼事情我們在現在民主法治的國家我們還要擔心未來到底未來執法難道我們警總要復辟嗎所以以上我們是不是可以休息五分鐘討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2300.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2326.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
還是要現在休息五分鐘現在登記一共有七位委員要程序發言張志倫委員剛剛的發言其實都已經講到內容了那我們是不是就程序還有要發言的委員還是要先休息要講完嗎七位講完我們七位講完再來協商好謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員針對程序發言我尊重你一定來得及 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2328.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2354.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
請王航威委員針對程序發言好謝謝主席那我們今天所要討論的這個國安法相關的版本五花八門有來自於行政院版本也有來自於委員的提案版本那但是我們今天在整個的程序上是不是要進行到一個主條討論在整個的社會上第一個不曉得修什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2355.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2375.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第二个这里面有很多钳制了人民的言论自由或者是侵犯了人民的权利相关的是不是有过充分的讨论跟社会对话跟沟通然后我们今天要做这样的一个逐条讨论我觉得是非常非常有这个质疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2376.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2380.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
有關於我們現在國安法我剛才講五花八門很多人搞不清楚因為條文太多那我們如果甚至我們把一些條文因為現在很多人都是用AI你把它輸入AI請AI來做一些來解析也都會出現這裡面包括了這裡面有沒有前置人民的言論自由這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2401.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2416.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
還有就是破壞了這樣的一個權力的分立讓我們對於人民的自由對於人民的權利把由原來應該由司法裁定的交給行政權行政權無限的擴張更不要說裡面還授權給行政單位可以針對網路上他認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2425.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2451.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所謂的他認為的假訊息然後可以直接進行封網這根本就是當年的數位中介法的一個借師還魂我們可以這樣子的來容忍嗎甚至裡面有侵犯人民的權利對於在還在辦案中還在程序中的對於我們的這些退休的公教人員就直接可以剝奪他的一個他的退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2455.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2460.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個是在過去從來沒有過即便經過司法審判也要定案之後才能夠做這樣的處分所以如果今天我們就進行這些相關違反人民權利前置人民自由侵犯人民的這些他的合法的權利難道我們要回到警總時代嗎難道我們現在是要變戒嚴時代嗎國安法民意上 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2483.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2499.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
以國安為名但是不能夠假國安之名然後去剝奪人民的權利而且製造人民之間的一個對立或仇恨所以我在這邊我們今天在我們進行逐條審查之前其實我們委員會也開了兩場公聽會如果大家可以看一下這些專家學者的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2510.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2538.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
还有网络对这些平息的意见你就会发现如果我们今天贸然进入了一个逐条的审查其实我们都在一个历史的一个关键点上我们不希望今天我们立法院所通过的是让过去的警组时代让过去的戒严时代可以戒尸还魂我觉得这一点是必须要提醒大家的以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2539.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2555.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 謝謝王宏威委員其實王宏威委員剛剛的程序發言的內容其實就是我們今天要討論的內容那實在是建議可以繼續下去討論但是我還是尊重大家的決定繼續來做程序發言來請許中信委員做程序發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2568.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2593.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席各位同仁各位媒體先生小姐私事有兩種憲法也有兩種美國憲法以自由為基礎所以美國憲法本文只有一個地方提到Right也就是第一條第八項第八款提到排除權也就是專利跟著作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2593.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2601.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其他都是自由言論自由尤其是美國憲法第一修正案所以美國憲法它是保障人民的言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2603.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2630.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我們剛才的委員有提到自由跟權利混用那其實是跟我們大陸法系的憲法從德國威馬憲法開始我們都把國家當成一個會干涉人民權利的一個機器所以從威馬憲法開始我們有言論權還有生存權工作權所以各位可以看到我國憲法跟日本憲法Right Right Right你有非常多的Right |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2630.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2659.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以這是兩種憲法不同的思維那麼我們在言論自由的保障這個在台灣由於我鄭安榮他以他的生命來保障我們的言論自由所以我們在刑法我的老師林三田他為了要這個言論自由來廢除我們的刑法100條所以言論自由是我們台灣本土政堂非常強調的一個言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2660.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2678.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
但是各位要平衡這個國家安全言論自由這個是一個非常細膩的一個工作也就是說我在陳大釗copyright 著作權當著作權跟言論自由之間的衝突該如何來折衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2679.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2708.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
美國著作權法最權威的學者就是Never on copyright他是美國言論自由的大師所以各位可以知道著作權法跟言論自由之間的衝突以及如何折衷這是非常細膩的一部法律所以包括網路上的著作的傳輸言論的傳輸我們如何讓一個網路的使用者可以充分的表達他的自由而不會去影響到他人的著作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2709.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2737.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
或是他的資助權需要保障這是非常細膩的所以我們必須要嚴肅以對那麼我們可以看到我們的世界貿易組織WTO裡面最主要的部位就是GATT而GATT裡面有National Security的例外也就是國家安全的例外所以各位可以看到一個這麼重要的國際規範對國家安全仍然是這麼的重視所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2739.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2750.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
國家安全的問題的確是值得我們非常的重視所以本席認為在這樣一個言論自由以及國家安全這麼重要的兩個衝突的價值之間我們的確是應該要詳細的來進行討論以免去影響到我們人民的言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2760.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2777.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
也不要去影響到我們國家的安全所以我個人認為我們嚴肅以待 謝謝好 謝謝許中信委員的內容你的程序發言的內容還是對於第四條要進行比較詳細的討論那我們也支持啦那所以如果等一下可以順利進行討論的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2779.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2792.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
請許中信委員可以多給大家一點意見那我們繼續進行程序發言到第七位高精素酶程序發言之後我們再進行協商接下來我們請黃婕委員進行程序發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2812.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2839.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好 針對今天的這個程序發言我必須要先說今天審國安法案不是第一次審我們在今年1月7號的時候網美會委員擔任召委當時就已經排審了大家也質詢了那當時國民黨也是派了很多委員來進行程序發言那在這樣大量的委員發言之後大家坐下來協商的共識就是由國民黨跟民進黨各安排一場公聽會並且在3月底之前完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2840.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2851.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那現在我們按照當時協商的結論了各開了一場公聽會並且完成了這樣的程序那現在繼續進行國安法的審查到底有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2852.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2877.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
到底有什麼問題我們不就是應該大家如果真的重視國安真的認為台灣的國家安全很重要那我們就應該在這樣的目標之下盡速的進行這個法案的實質審查那剛剛提到的這些委員的內容其實都是在逐條審查的時候大家可以坐下來一條一條的討論啊你對於這個文字有意見那大家坐下來談嘛我們部會首長也都在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2878.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2899.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好好的進行實質的討論並沒有問題但不是拿著這樣子的框架進行阻擋國安法案的這樣子的程序達到你們的目標那我也必須要講國民黨不斷的說這個言論自由是一個假象他們說這個是要假借言論自由來行這個威權之使我必須要說大錯特錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2902.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2922.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
在國際上言論自由都是有界限的啊各個國家其實也都寫很清楚甚至我們的國際法在公民與政治權利國際公約裡面也規定的非常清楚任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應該以法律禁止之這個是各個民主國家的共識也是大家都認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2923.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2936.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
保護各個國家安全最基本的條件就是不可以對其他國家發動非和平的手段也就是不可以輕易的對其他國家進行侵略以及這種發動戰爭的這種言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2939.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2960.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以呢 既然不能恐嚇威脅 不能迫害人家的生存怎麼可以 我們當然認為說這樣的目標應該放進這樣的法條裡面是一個可以討論的那所以我必須要說 這一次我們希望法律規範的是不要進行煽動或是侵略 也不要對於我國可以發動戰爭這樣子的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2964.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2980.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那如果國民黨認為這樣子的文字不行那請問是怎樣的文字才可以等一下在法條裡面你們可以提出來討論嗎你們的版本長什麼樣子讓大家看看嘛你們是支持對我國發動戰爭這樣的文字是可以被拿出來講的嗎你們是支持這樣的言論還是這樣的立場嗎我必須要說要討論國防都可以你甚至你要討論軍貢你要3800億還是8000億都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2993.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3014.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你要支持鄭麗文傅昆旗的版本還是你要支持盧秀燕韓國瑜的版本大家可以拿出來討論啊完全不會有人禁止你也不會有人說在法律裡面不能寫到這樣的文字那你要批評我國的外交路線你認為說我們現在執政黨的外交路線你不支持你們罵了這麼多也沒有人禁止你們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3015.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3031.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那所以我們現在進行這個國安法的實質討論到底有什麼問題呢希望大家可以好好的坐下來討論這個實質的內容如果你們真的重視台灣的國家安全就應該好好理性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3032.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3053.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
凝聚共識在這樣共同的目標之下我們趕快來進行這個把台灣的國家的安全提高層級那補起這樣子的漏洞謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員那接下來就請上一次台會審查的王美惠委員來進行程序發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3062.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3086.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
主席 大家午安 大家早安在這裡 本來我是想說不可以提議但是在1月7日是我做教委的時候我覺得民主主義的國家不管你是修法也好 資訊也好都要大家互相尊重我剛才是坐在教委那一位的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3088.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3100.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我有聽到,我們裡面的黨人說,我們是不是可以在三月的進展來辦兩場共聽會,一場民進黨辦,一場國民黨辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3107.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3118.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我在那裡抓到,我也說這樣沒意見,我們來找時間跟三位代進行,我們就來公投的辦公室抓在這個過程,你們要求三位代辦公室抓,我們就來審我在這裡都在想,我們是怎麼怕審國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3134.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3143.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
一個國家,我們是要保護,不是我們平常不愛中華民國的台灣,要回台灣掉的。我覺得有什麼好笑的?我們比那天一個阿伯更好不如,一個阿伯說不要再亂了啦,台灣跟一個而已啦,哪個亂了台灣的海啦? |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3164.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3166.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以在這裡我要跟大家說,有什麼意見,我們站起來說因為說實在的,這也不是黑箱作業因為這都有直播,都有大家中華民國的背景看 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3183.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3191.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有什麼我們想得不好,在委員會來介紹的時候,大家都可以接受剛才有我們的董事長說,正宗的世代還要來發聲啊!他不覺得我們有想到正宗的世代是誰出現的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3208.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3212.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
因為我們要好自由民主的國家,我們也要保護我們的國家所以在這個國安法,我們是最重要到底你們是要多久,跟你們要求的都做了,不是要國安法啦還是你們就想說,我們就不想過啦,要讓這個國家暖和一下啦,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3244.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3256.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
接下來是葛如君委員,因為葛如君委員你不是內委會的委員那我把你的發言時間改成會議詢問,不是程序發言你可以會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3267.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3286.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
謝謝主席各位委員各位部會機關代表大家好沒有能源安全怎麼有國家安全沒有網路韌性怎麼會有國家安全沒有主權AI怎麼會有國家安全沒有金融韌性怎麼會有國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3287.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3315.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
在這裡修國安法結果是在前置言論自由要來處罰中間人要來數位中介法復辟這就是民進黨的國家安全嗎任何人不得以文字圖畫聲音言語影像電磁記錄或他法公開鼓吹倡議或支持外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3316.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3331.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所有的外國全宇宙你要不要加一個外星球啊對我國發動戰爭或採取非和平手段消滅我國主權這個是行政院提出的立法說明行政院主張修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3332.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3350.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
是因為有各種他所說的各種理由裡面說從事滲透與認知作戰散佈呼應各種要處理台灣怎麼樣提到說升高社會對立氛圍有害國家社會安全安定之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3352.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3366.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這種文字我看到這裡真的很納悶如果說本市修法的目的是要為了防止危害國家安全與社會安定那為什麼修法說明只特定強調特定的相關言論呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3367.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3390.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主張台獨的言論難道不會升高社會對立的氛圍嗎難道不會危害國家安全與社會安定嗎結果今年1月7號由當時內政委員會的王美惠召委所排定的國安法修法議程當中內政部政務次長馬世元明確直接表示台獨言論屬於言論自由範圍原來言論自由的範圍是可以選擇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3396.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3414.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所以主張台獨言論不會被處罰不管法怎麼修都不會被處罰那請問無論是對外要主張什麼樣的言論還是民進黨現在要主張台獨言論目的都是在消滅中華民國的主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3416.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3437.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
都是在危害我們中華民國的憲法同樣有違國家的安全同樣都在升高對立的氛圍同樣都有可能要危害社會安定那為什麼特定的言論就要被列入特定的言論就應該被排除這就是標準不一這就是雙標也難怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3440.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3462.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
未來會不會法律系等於政治系政治系等於法律系啊這是我們要給社會的示範嗎同時我也很好奇啊賴新德總統年初接受電視節目專訪在專訪當中表示中國因為實力不夠所以不敢越雷石一步請問這樣言論是否算鼓吹境外敵對勢力對我國發動戰爭要消滅我國主權呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3467.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3496.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
還是這又是選擇性的言論自由呢對於選擇性的言論自由對於要數位中介法復辟對於要處罰中間人的方式來處理國安而不去處理能源的安全而不去處理網路的安全而不去處理AI的安全而不去處理所有其他一樣重要的安全我認為啊這根本就是一個在處理言論自由的法案謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3497.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3521.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
謝謝葛如君委員的會議詢問你剛講的包含在第三條第四條都是我們今天的討論範圍第三條關於國家關鍵基礎技術要不要討論第四條這一個也是你可以等一下來發言的地方歡迎你來發言接下來我們請我們剛協商的結論請高金素梅委員做程序發言之後我們進行協商謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3530.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3558.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
謝謝召委今天我們每一個人在這邊修這個國安法提案的人或者是行政院你們都要為你們的版本做歷史上的負責所以我今天還是得在程旭發言的時候講一些我心裡面想講的話曾經民進黨的朋友們你們在國民黨執政的時候走上街頭為了什麼為了廢死刑法100條就是要避免思想入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3559.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3582.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
曾經民進黨我最尊敬的鄭文榮先生用他的性命捍衛百分之百的言論自由而如今不管是民進黨你們執政了多少多少年你們的個別的立法委員還有行政院你們竟然在國會的殿堂提出了國安法的修法而你們說的是要補破網要反滲透要防認知作戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3587.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3590.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
但是呢我們從兩場的公聽會我們可以從專家學者的問題上分類出幾個問題第一個就是要不要保護國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3599.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3603.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
有沒有把紅線畫得清楚而你們的修法內容什麼叫做參與組織什麼叫中軍人什麼叫鼓吹戰爭什麼叫足以生危害國家這樣的行為其實非常的模糊但是呢我們的行政機關卻可以先認定先開罰先下架先封網 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3626.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3643.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
甚至可以先停發退休份我們來分享一下幾段專家學者的一些談論第一個他說構成要件太模糊我們可以看到第二條不管是行政院的版本或者是個別委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3643.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3659.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
你們把意圖危害國家改成足以先危害國安並且新增加了參與組織罪跟中間人的責任但是參與組織定義不清楚兩岸的學術經貿 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3660.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3674.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
宗教的交流都可能會被捲入而且所謂的中間人的責任恐怕會讓台商或民間團體因為接觸的對象背景不明而觸發 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3676.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3703.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
刪除主觀意圖等於是降低國家的舉證的責任廖玉明教授他反對將意圖危害國安改為足以生危害如果衝上的定義就可以讓人家入罪那麼就會造成刑法過度擴張人民無所適從第二個要分享的就是言論裁罰交給行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3705.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3715.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
風險真的非常的高我們可以看第四條鼓吹戰爭消滅主權定義非常的不清楚而且需要人誰內政部會商機關就可以被裁罰最高罰多少一百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3722.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3724.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這不僅僅只是單純的補國安內鬥這是讓執政黨來決定政治言論的邊界再來分享的第三個就是封網跟下架權是整個草案最危險的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3739.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3752.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
張貴美教授她也質疑第四條之一要要求平台限制瀏覽、移除內容、限制或終止帳號甚至上述行政事前的把關這是變相的戒嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3755.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3770.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
楊志傑教授他也主張如果涉及戰爭人類應該是由法院來把關而不是行政機關來裁罰第五個我們要分享的是現行的法律不是完全的沒有工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3771.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3785.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
警政署在冬天會的時候他也說錯誤的假訊息有其他的法規來處理並且僅僅限制有惡意或者是虛假而且是具體有危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3786.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3798.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
執政黨如果要再修國安法就必須要告訴人民現行的法律到底有哪一條是不能夠用的哪一些案件辦不下去的為什麼非要給內政部封網跟裁罰的權利呢第五個我要分享的是沒有定罪先庭諷這抵觸了無罪推定跟財產權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3814.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3841.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
在法條裡面不管是行政院版本或者是民進黨的立法院的版本你們第13條 第13條之一只要是涉及一審有罪根本就還沒有確定定罪你們就要停他的退休奉這不僅僅是國安的問題啦這是人民生活的權的問題所以呢我在這裡還是要表達我清楚的立場也要提醒我們全國的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3843.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3846.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
國安法是可以修的 但是不可以粗糙的修 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3848.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3852.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
民進黨你們更不可以以所謂的滲透之名來趁機擴權把正常的交流、政治的評論、網路的發言、學術的活動以惡之名然後重現當年刑法100條的思想入罪管制人民的嘴巴、實質變相的戒嚴然後完成你們民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3876.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3893.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
一黨獨大 赤裸裸的行政獨台的行為在這裡我們還是要用歷史上的發言來告訴人民也提醒民進黨執政黨的朋友們千萬不要走回頭路這條路我們已經走得很辛苦了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4322.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4325.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
報告委員會,我們現在進行法案審查,請宣讀討論事項所有條文,請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4330.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4355.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
第二條行政院提案第一款後段增訂足以深為害於國家安全或社會安定增訂第二款二參與前款組織足以深為害於國家安全或社會安定原第二三款以列第三四款其餘同現行條文委員陳冠廷等二十一人提案將第二款第三款之關於公務上文字修正為涉及國家安全或公共利益上其餘同現行條文委員沈伯陽等二十人提案續文後段增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4356.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4381.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
或受其指示委託或資助而再轉指示委託或資助者將第二款第三款關於公務上因秘密之文字文字修正為關於國家關鍵基礎設施之安全防護或公務上因秘密之文書其餘同現行條文委員王定宇等16人提案第一款後段增訂或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與其活動第二款刪除傳遞文字其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4382.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4399.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
委員黃婕等16人提案增訂第二款二以聲明會議連署或其他形式承諾發起資助組織操縱指揮或發展組織原第二三款一列第三四款其餘通現行條文委員王美惠等17人提案續文後段增訂或受其指示委託或指示或 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4400.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4418.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
或資助而再轉指示委託或資助者第一款修正為依發起資助主持操縱指揮發展經營或管理組織或為前段組織執行業務其餘通現行條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案增訂第一項第二款第五款二加入或承諾成為組織成員或參與組織活動違反台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第33條第四項者 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4425.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4443.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
5.受指示或利益散布、傳播或刊登其指定內容之文書、圖畫、影像、消息、物品或電磁記錄原第2、3款,一列第3、4款增訂第二項,任何人不得因受與前項組織、機構、團體或其派遣之人之撤返 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4444.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4471.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
承諾特定時機接受其指揮命令其餘同線型條文委員邱志偉等19人提案第一款前段增訂參與文字其餘同線型條文委員王定宇等16人提案第一款後段增訂參與文字其餘同線型條文委員吳佩義等17人提案增訂第二款二參與前款組織但未維護國家安全或社會安定而出於不得已者的減輕或免除其刑原第二三款一列第三四款其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4471.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4496.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
委員郭玉琴等18人提案委員徐富奎等20人提案委員李昆成等19人提案同行政院提案委員林楚英等17人提案第一款後段增訂致影響國家安全及社會安定增訂第二款二參與前款組織有關國家安全或社會安定之餘者原訂二三款一列第三四款其餘通現行條文委員林益錦等18人提案第一次四款同行政院提案增訂第五款五 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4496.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4504.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
利用人工智慧或數位科技技術生成或散佈身為影像音訊或虛假訊息足以身為害於國家安全社會安定或誤導公眾認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4508.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4529.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
第三條委員邱志偉的十六人提案將第一項第二項之國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密文字修正為國家核心關鍵技術第一項第二款及第三款中段後段之營業秘密文字修正為國家核心關鍵技術第三項續文之重大損害國家安全產業競爭力或經濟發展文字修正為重大損害國家安全產業競爭力或經濟發展之營業秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4532.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4559.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
第四段後段修正為由國家科學及技術委員會會商有關機關及產業界代表與學者專家組成之專案委員會定之第五項修正為第三項國家核心關鍵技術之細部定義經行政院公告後應於一個月內就進行管制之範圍及執行措施向立法院提出專案報告並每年定期檢討其適用性及解除管制第六項修正引用上次其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4560.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4587.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
委員沈博洋等20人提案委員王美惠等17人提案第一項續文後段增訂或受其指示委託或資助而再轉指示委託或資助者增訂第一項第五款第六款五洩露交付或傳遞國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密六刺探或收集關於國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密其餘同現行條文委員黃婕等16人提案將第一項第二項之國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密文字修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4589.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4604.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
國家核心關鍵技術 刪除第六項其餘同線型條文委員賴瑞榮等17人提案 第二項修正為任何人不得意圖在前項地區組織機構或團體使用國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密而為前項各款行為之一 其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4605.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4624.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
第四條國家行政院提案國家安全之維護應及於中華民國領域內實體空間及網際網路空間任何人不得以文字圖畫聲音言語影像電子記錄或他法公開鼓吹倡議或支持外國大陸地區香港澳門或敬畏敵對勢力對我國發動戰爭或採取非和平手段消滅我國主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4628.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4651.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
經內政部、會商法務部、大陸委員會及相關機關認定違反前項規定者處新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下罰還委員陳冠廷等23人提案第一項同現行講文增訂第二項為保護國人免受大陸地區、香港、澳門或境外敵對勢力控制之私通安全產品的侵害主管境外應建立私通安全產品定期評估機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4653.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4675.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
並提出限制建議清單限制建議清單應送立法院被查並經立法院同意後由主管機關公告之限制建議清單所列自動安全產品非經主管機關許可不得與我國應用程式商店中提供下載與更新服務委員李昆城等16人提案同行政院提案委員林楚英等17人提案第一項修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4677.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4706.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
國家安全之維護應取於中華民國領域內之網際網路空間及其實體空間增訂第二項任何人不得以文字影像聲音或任何其他形式公開鼓吹倡議或支持外國大陸地區香港澳門或其他境外敵對勢力對我國採取非和平手段破壞之消滅我國或消滅我國主權經內政部會上其他相關機關認定後違反前項規定者處新台幣二十萬元以上兩百萬元以下罰還增訂第四條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4707.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4724.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
行政院提案網際網路之內容有下列各款情形之一者內政部經會商法務部數位發展部大陸委員會及相關機關後的令網際網路平台提供者網際網路內容提供者或網際網路應用服務提供者以下合稱網路服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4725.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4751.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
對該內容限制瀏覽移除或對使用帳號採取限制或終止服務之措施一違反前條第二項規定二公開散佈錯誤虛假訊息或公開為中共從事具有任何政治目的之宣傳而有危害國家安全或社會財政經濟安定之餘網際網路之內容有前項各款情形之一情節重大或為避免急迫危險而有及時處置之必要者 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4752.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4772.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
內政部的禁令網際網路接取服務提供者未定之解析或限制接取之處置不適用前項規定網際網路服務提供者因此接獲第一項命令之日起將使用者帳號資料及網頁內容保留180日並依內政部調取資料之通知提供資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4774.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4789.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
網際網路服務提供者不遵行第一項命令而無正當理由者有內政部處新台幣十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款並令其限期改正藉其未改正者皆次處罰並得令網際網路接取服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4790.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4808.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
為停止解析或限制接取之處置網際網路接取服務提供者不遵行第二項或前項停止解析或限制接取之命令而無正當理由者由內政部處新台幣十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還並令其限期改正藉其未改正則按次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4809.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4837.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
往期網路服務提供者違反第三項規定未保留資料180日或未提供資料而無正當理由者由內政部處心台幣6萬元以上60萬元以下罰款未提供資料者並令其限期改正 藉其未改正者按次處罰內政部一第二項及第四項規定所謂停止解析或限制接取這命令數位發展主管機關 教育主管機關通訊傳播主管機關及科學技術發展主管機關應協助執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4841.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4860.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
委員李坤成等16人提案同行政院提案委員林楚英等17人提案第4條之一網際網路之內容有下列各款情形之一者經內政部會商數位發展部及相關機關後得令著作權法第3條第1項第19款所述之網路服務提供者及其與網 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4861.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4875.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
及其予提供網路平台網路內容相關應用服務之提供者以下合成網際服務提供者移除或建置閱覽特定內容限制使用者帳號或終止特定服務依違反前條第二項之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4877.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4902.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
二公開散佈錯假訊息公開為外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力從事具有特定政治目的之宣傳有害危害國家安全或社會安定之餘網際網路之內容有前項各款情形之一情節重大或為避免緊急狀況而有即時處置之必要者內政部的禁令網際網路服務提供者未停止解析或限制接取之處置不適用第一項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4904.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4929.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
網路服務提供者因自接獲第一項命令之日起將使用者帳號資料及網頁內容保留180日以上並依內政部調取資料之通知提供資料網路服務提供者不遵行第一項命令而無正當理由者由內政部處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還並領其限其改正藉其未改正則按次處罰並得令網際網路服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4932.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4950.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
為停止解析或限制接取之處置網際網路服務提供者不遵行第三項或前項停止解析或限制接取之命令而無正當理由者由內政部處新台幣二十萬元以上兩百萬元以下罰還並另期限其改正借其未改正者皆次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4952.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4969.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
案次處罰網路服務提供者違反第四項規定無正當理由保留資料未滿一百八十日或未提供資料者有內政部處信台幣八萬元以上八十萬元以下罰還未提供資料者得令其限期改正藉其未改正者得案次處罰數位發展部 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4972.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4983.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
教育部國家通訊傳播委員會及國家科學及技術委員會應協助內政部執行第二項及第四項規定所為之停止解析或限制接取之命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4985.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5010.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
第六條委員鄭天才等19人提案第一項修正為為確保海防及軍事設施安全得由國防部會同內政部指定海岸或重要軍事設施地區劃為管制區公告並刊登政府公報增訂第五項第一項管制區域化設為原住民地區者應徵得當地原住民族或部落同意或參與其參與及同意方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5011.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5015.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
及受限制所生失之補償辦法由內政部及原住民族委員會定之其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5023.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5046.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
第七條行政院提案為大陸地區香港澳門境內敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣資源違反第二條第一款規定者處七年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以上一億元以下罰金違反第二條第二款規定者處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5047.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5067.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
為外國或其所設立或使之控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人違反第二條第一款規定者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑的病科新台幣三千萬元以下罰金違反第二條第二款規定者處三年以下有期徒刑的病科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金為大陸地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5068.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5089.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實施控制之各類組織、機構、團體或其派遣之人違反第二條第三款規定者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三千萬元以下罰金違反第二條第四款規定者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5090.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5105.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
為外國或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人違反第二條第三款規定者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑得併科信貸幣一千萬元以下罰金違反第二條第四款規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5106.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5131.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
處六月以上 五年以下有期徒刑 得兵科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金第一項前段第二項前段第三項及第四項之未遂犯法之因過失犯第三項前段或第四項前段之罪者處一年以下有期徒刑 拘役或新台幣三十萬元以下罰金犯前六項之罪而自首者得減輕或免除其刑因而查獲其他證犯或共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5131.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5149.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
或防止國家安全或利益受到重大危害情勢者免除其刑犯第一項至第六項之罪與偵查中及歷次審判中均自白者得減輕其刑因而查獲其他證犯或共犯或防止國家安全或利益受到重大危害情勢者 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5150.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5166.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
減輕或免除其刑犯第一項或第二項之罪者其參加之組織所有之財產足實際合法發還被害人者外應與沒收犯第一項或第二項之罪者對於參加組織後取得之財產未能證明合法來源者異同 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5168.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5183.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一二三項修正為意圖危害國家安全或社會安定為大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力違反第二條第一款規定者處十二年以上有期徒刑得病科信貸幣一億元以上五億元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5185.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5209.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
為外國違反第二條第一款規定者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五百萬元以上一億元以下之罰金為大陸為大陸地區香港澳門經會敵對勢力違反第二條第二款規定者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五百萬元以上一億元以下罰金為外國違反第二條第二款規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5211.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5236.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑 得聘科清台幣一千萬元以下罰金 為大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力違反第二條第三款規定者 處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑 得聘科清台幣五百萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金 為外國違反第二條第三款規定者 處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑 得聘科清台幣三百萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5237.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5252.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
第五項前段修正為因過失犯第二項前段之罪者處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得病科清台幣三百萬元以下罰金因過失犯第二項後段之罪者其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5253.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5282.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
委員陳冠廷等二十一人提案第一二三項修正為意圖危害國家安全或社會安定為大陸地區違反第二條第一款規定者處十年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以上兩億元以下罰金為大陸地區以外違反第二條第一款規定者處五年以上十年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金違反第二條第二款規定者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三千萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5283.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5312.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
違反第二條第三款規定者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金其餘同現行條文委員審柏央等二十人提案第一項前段修正為意圖危害國家安全或社會安定為大陸地區香港澳門或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人或受其指示委託或資助而再轉指示委託或資助者為違反第二條第一款規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5313.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5334.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
其餘通訊請調文委員王定宇等16人提案增訂第4項第5項犯第2項第3項之罪是國家安全或利益受到危害者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑因而致人員被逮捕財產被沒收設施被燒毀或組織被破獲者處7年以上有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5335.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5358.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
現役軍人、公務員、假借職務上之權利、欺惑或方法以故意犯第二條課款之罪者加重其刑至二分之一但其談法律有特別規定其刑其刑度較高者不在此限原第四項至第七項一列第六項至第九項並修正原應項次增訂第十項犯第一項犯第一項之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5360.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5387.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
行為清潔者得減輕其刑原第八項第九項一列第十一項第十二項其餘同線性條文委員黃婕等十六人提案增訂第二項為大陸地區違反第二條第二款規定者處六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑的病科新台幣兩千萬元以下罰金為大陸地區以外違反第二條第二款規定者處三年以下有期徒刑的病科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金原第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5388.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5417.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
至第七項相次第一並修正原影相次及款次第八項第九項前段修正為犯第一項及第二項之罪者並一列第九項第十項其餘同現行條文委員王美惠等十七人提案將第一項之大陸地區文字修正為大陸地區香港澳門其餘同現行條文委員賴瑞龍等十七人提案第一項修正為主以身為害國家安全或社會安定違反第二條第一項第一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5417.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5428.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
及第二項規定者處七年以上有期徒刑得賓科新台幣五千萬元以上一億元以下罰金第三項修正違違反第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5430.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5458.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
違反第二條第一項第三款規定者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑的併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金增訂第四項之第七項違反第二條第一項第四款規定者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑的併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金違反第二條第一項第五款規定者處六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑的併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金犯第一項之罪足以生損害與中華民國或公眾者 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5458.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5487.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以上五億元以下罰金犯第二項之罪置身損害於國防外交軍事情報利益或財產上損失者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑至我國派遣志願員遭受生命身體人身自由侵害者處七年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣兩千萬元以下罰金原第四項至第七項一列第八項至 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5487.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5511.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
第十一項並修正原理項次原第八項第九項一列第十二十三項增訂第十四項限職及退休職務軍工教級公營機構公營機關構人員民選工職人員及關鍵基礎設施防護人員犯本條之罪者加重其加重其刑至二分之一其餘同線請條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5513.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5528.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
委員邱志偉等19人提案刪除第一項最前段之意圖二字其餘同現行條文委員王定宇等16人提案第一項前段修正違違反第二條第一款規定足以危害國家安全或社會安定者其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5529.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5558.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
委員吳佩義等17人提案 增訂第二項違反第二條第二款規定者 處7年以下有期徒刑 得併科新台幣1000萬元以下罰金原第二項至第九項 項次第一 並著作文字修正 其餘同線型條文委員郭玉琴等18人提案 委員徐富奎等20人提案委員李昆城等19人提案 委員林竹英等17人提案委員林一進等18人提案 同行政院提案第八條行政院提案 第一項及第二項修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5559.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5574.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
為大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對實體或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人違反第三條第一項各款規定之一者處七年以上有期徒刑得病科 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5575.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5601.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
新台幣1000萬元以上3億元以下之罰金為外國或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人違反第三條第一項客管規定之一者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣500萬元以上1億元以下之罰金現行第二項一列第三項現行第三項至第七項一列為第四項至第八項並著作文字修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5603.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5621.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一第二項修正為為大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力違反第三條第一項各款規定之一者處七年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以上一億元以下罰金為外國違反第三條第一項各款規定之一者 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5622.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5648.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五百萬元以上一億元以下之罰金為大陸地區香港澳門親衛敵對勢力違反第三條第二項規定者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五百萬元以上一億元以下之罰金為外國違反第三條第二項規定者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五百萬元以上五千萬元以下之罰金其餘等現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5650 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5669.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
委員陳冠廷等二十三人提案增訂第八項應用程式或商店違反第四條第二項規定者處新台幣三百萬元以上三千萬元以下之罰金及與同現行條文委員陳柏陽等二十人提案第一項前段修正為違反第三條第一項第一款至第四款規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5671.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5700.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
規定之一者增訂第三項違反第三條第一項第五款或第六款規定者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑的病科清台幣一百萬元以上一千萬元以下之罰金原第三項至第七項相次第一並修正原影相次其餘同現行條文委員郭玉琴等十八人提案委員徐富奎等二十人提案委員李坤成等十九人提案委員林楚英等十七人提案同行政院提案增訂第八條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5701.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5725.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
行政院提案第八條之一受外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人之指示委託或資助而再轉指示委託或資助他人未違反第二條或第三條第一項之行為者依第七條及第八條規定處斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5728.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5741.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條質疑公務人員或機關首長違反公務人員任用法第四條第二項鎖定辦法為韓情法務部調查局辦理公務人員之特殊查核由行政院人事行政總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5743.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5757.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
處新台幣一百萬元以上五百萬元以下罰款並得按次處罰公務人員或機關首長違反公務人員任用法第四條第二項鎖定辦法未函請公務委員請法務部調查局辦理公務人員之特殊查核而該辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5759.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5774.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
而該應辦理卻未辦理特殊查核之公務人員犯第七條第一項至第四項或第八條第一項至第三項之罪經有罪判決確定處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三百萬元以下之罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5776.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5795.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
委員郭鈺晴等十八人提案同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員徐富奎等二十人提案委員李坤成等十九人提案委員林楚英等十七人提案委員林依晴等十八人提案同行政院提案第十三條軍公教行政院提案軍公教及公營 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5797.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5814.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
機關購人員於限職役或退休職務後有下列情形之一 經判處有期徒刑以上執行者自宣誓判決之日起暫停暫停發給其退職務給予百分之五十 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5818.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5836.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
一犯第七條至第八條之一及其一第十五條之一加重其刑之罪二犯刑法內亂罪外患罪外匯外患罪章之罪三犯陸海空刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5836.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5861.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
四犯國家機密保護法第32條至第34條之罪五犯國家情報工作法第30條至第31條之罪五犯反滲透法第三條第二項第四條第二項第五條第三項第六條至第九條之罪前項經判決無罪確定者應與恢復發給並補發其 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5865.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5877.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
其經停發之退伍職務給予第一項情形經判處有期徒刑以上之行確定者上司其勤領退休職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5879.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5882.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
有第一項各款情形之一者適用前四項之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5898.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5917.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
委員沈博洋等17人提案委員王美惠等17人提案第一項第二款後段增訂反滲透法第三條至第七條之罪經判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定其與同現行條文委員陳冠廷等16人提案增訂第三項犯第一項各款之罪經第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5919.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5939.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
判處有期徒刑以上之刑者 應暫停發放退休職務給予如今改判無罪確定者 應暫停發放之給予依暫停發放時中華郵政股份有限公司一年期定期儲金固定利率 按日加計利息後以次發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5940.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5957.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
其餘同現行條文委員賴瑞隆等17人提案第一項第二款後段增訂反滲透法第三條至第七條之罪經判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定增訂第二項前項人員於現職期間因違反第九條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5959.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5974.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
經有罪判決確定者應依下列規定減少退休職務給予其已知靈者應照減少之全部或一部分追繳之依經判處有期徒刑三年以上因此時減少其應領退離職相關給予50% |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5978.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5994.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
二 經判處有期徒刑兩年以上未滿三年者 因自始減少其因領退離職相關給予百分之三十經判處有期徒刑一年以上未滿兩年者 因自始減少其因領退 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5995.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6012.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
離職相關給予百分之二十原地二項列列第三項並著作文字修正其餘同現行條文委員徐富奎等二十人提案委員李昆成等十九人提案委員林楚英等十七人提案同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6013.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6036.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
增訂第13條之一 委員沈伯陽等17人提案第13條之一 軍公教及公營機關構人員與領受退休職務給予期間有下列情形之一者停止其領受之權利 致其原因消滅時恢復一 犯內亂罪或未犯罪而有下列情形之一者 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6038.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6042.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
1.所涉犯罪尚未判決確定2. |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6042.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6047.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所涉犯罪經檢察官為不起訴或還起訴處分尚未確定3. |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6047.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6051.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所涉犯罪經檢察官為還起訴處分確定尚未期門 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6053.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6078.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
2犯國家安全法第7條第8條之罪或陸海空刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章國家機密保護法第32條至第34條國家情報工作法第30條至第31條反滲透法第3條至第7條之罪且經法院判處有期徒刑以上之刑尚未確定前項原因消滅後未經法院判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6079.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6102.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
發放機關因依相關規定補發其退休職務給予委員莊瑞雄等十六人提案第十三條之一限職軍公教人員及公營機關構人員有相當理由主任其設有違反本法第二條或第三條第一項之請示或協助他人實施該等行為有危害國家安全之與者其服務機關報經上級機關核准後 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6105.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6116.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
應及予以停職並進行行政調查欲有急迫勤事服務機關得先行停職並應於三日內完成補報上級核准程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6118.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6141.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
增訂第十五條之一行政院提案第十五條之一為大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人犯本法之罪者加重其刑至二分之一但本法也有規定者從其規定現役軍人或公務員故意犯本法之罪者加重其刑至二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6142.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6165.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
委員郭玉琴等18人提案 委員徐富奎等20人提案 委員李昆成等19人提案 委員林儲英等19人提案 統行政院提案第18條行政院提案第一項第二項修正為第七條第一項前段第二項前段其一第八條之一處斷之罪依第十五條之一第二項加重其刑之罪及其未遂犯之案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6166.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6191.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
其第一審管轄權屬於高等法院第八條第一項至第四項其一第八條之一處斷之罪及一第十五條之一加重其刑之罪之案件其第一審管轄權屬於智慧財產及商業法院第三項前段修正為與前項案件有裁判上上一罪或刑事訴訟法第七條第一款鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6192.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6207.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
相牽連關係之第一審管轄權屬於高等法院之其他刑事案件第四項前段修正為本法中華民國一百十一年六月八日修正公佈之條文施行前其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6208.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6228.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
委員沈伯漾等二十人提案第二項第三項修正原影相次其餘同線型條文委員郭育芹等十八人提案委員徐富奎等二十人提案委員李昆成等十九人提案同行政院提案委員林楚英等十七人提案第一至第三款同行政院提案其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6230.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6255.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
增訂第十九條之一委員陳冠廷等十九人提案第十九條之一法院為審理違反本法之犯罪案件應設立國家安全專業法庭由具有國家安全相關專業知識之法官辦理辦理前項案件之法官每年應接受一定時數之國家安全相關專業訓練或在此延期訓練時數專業認證及相關辦法由司法院定之宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6267.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6269.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
副市長副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6288.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6304.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
來我們請吳次長跟梁副主委也一起列席來做相關的這些說明跟討論好補充介紹沈波洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6309.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6335.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好現在進行協商依照剛才的協商我想因為包含國民黨委員民眾黨委員以及民進黨委員都對於內容其實都有一些看法我想我們充分做一些討論把各自的看法可以來提出來也請行政單位這邊來看有沒有調整的空間或者是有沒有說明有沒有可以怎麼樣說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6337.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6362.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
等一下的會議等一下的討論如果過久那我就會直接進入下一條先保留直接進入下一條繼續做討論請問各位有沒有意見如果沒有的話我們就這樣開始進行我想要從第二條讓陸委會這邊來先做一個說明好不好然後等一下國民黨委員那民進黨委員還有民眾黨委員分別有意見的話舉手一下那我會請你們發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6373.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6393.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
各位委員大家好實際上修正第二條要跟第七條合在一起看第二條要跟第七條合在一起看那第二條的重點其實是有兩個第一個是原來國安法它只 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6396.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6423.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
處罰發起資助主持操縱指揮或發展組織的人但是參與的人沒有處罰所以過去在辦一些國安案件的時候有一些參與的人反而是用其他的條文在處理譬如說有一個上校叫向德恩他因為他是被辦國安法但是因為他是參與他不是發起人 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6424.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6448.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那參與的這個證據很明確但是因為他不是發起人所以後來法院是用其他的法條來處理他譬如說是我記得他是被控被判貪污罪貪污受賄但是社會上就會覺得說你用貪污受賄罪雖然是也適用但是他其實本罪是國安法的罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6450.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6470.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以在因為類似的案件還蠻多的所以第二條部分我們就把這個參與的部分也加進來參與的部分那另外還有第二條另外一個重點是這樣就是說因為另外一個重點是要配合第七條一起看第七條的寫法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6476.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6489.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
Digital的原條文是意圖危害國家安全或社會安定然後你有做第二條的事情然後才要處罰也就是原來我們的條文的設計是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6493.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6517.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
是要法官證明你有意圖法官證明你有意圖那因為這個意圖的部分過去在法院有一些判例會造成一些在處理上面會比較困難所以法務部的建議他是說是用主以身為害國家安全或社會安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6518.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6535.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
為要件所以把意圖拿掉而是用足以生這個危害於國家安全或社會安定的要件這樣子所以這個部分呢是跟配合第七條一起修正好那以上謝謝好謝謝梁副主委說明那請沈伯洋委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6539.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6560.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝幹路委會的說明我覺得這幾個重點第一個就是因為第二條是涉及整體的範圍認定目前來講在第一款發起資助主持等等多了足聲危害於國家安全或社會安定刪除了這個意圖的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6561.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6581.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那這個我認為是一個比較明確化的做法因為意圖其實一直以來在法律上它的認定其實非常的虛無縹緲那如果把它設計成像類似這種具體危險犯的概念用足深危害於國家安全那它有一個客觀的證據必須要來認定那我覺得這個也是一個比較保障人權的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6582.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6602.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那第二個呢剛剛應該楊副主委也有提到就是參與的這一個部分因為過往呢要認定發展組織但是很多的時候呢在國安的案件不管是哪一種間諜他都是單點對口比較多那如果用這種單點對口的方式呢你很難用發起組織把它這個涵蓋進去所以這個第二款我認為非常有必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6603.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6628.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那第三個就是我自己提的這個版本的裡面有把這一個所謂的國家關鍵基礎設施的安全防護把它放進去那個是跟第三款有關那我先說明一下就是因為原本是公務上一秘密那我們目前實務上的做法就是我們把關鍵基礎設施的安全防護先把它設定成公務上的機密然後再符合這個第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6628.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6657.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那這樣很容易掛一漏萬所以呢我覺得比較明確的做法就是在第三款除了原本的公務秘密之外呢直接把關鍵基礎設施因為這很重要嘛就直接把關鍵基礎設施這個放進去那最後一個我要提的就是呢這個美匯委員跟我都有提到這一個只是委託再轉都就中間人的條款那因為中間人的條款現在呢看起來院版的把它放到八條之一所以這個部分呢我覺得如果要全部一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6657.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6669.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
把它規定到另外一條我覺得也OK所以以上簡單的說明 謝謝好 謝謝沈博洋委員接下來剛舉手要發言有蘇巧慧委員跟徐中信委員我們先請蘇巧慧委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6671.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6698.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝主席那我想既然我們在討論第二條其實我們確實這是更改的地方其實就在第一款跟第二款第一款確實是增其實是增加 增加了足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定的這樣的一段文字那我想其實任何念法律系的學生然後今天在從事法律這個工作的人應該都可以了解說我們把足以 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6700.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6706.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這兩個字在後面這段文字放上去其實等於是把結果犯了是我們變成是這件事情我們在討論有發生結果的人所以從過去沒有你只要做了這個行為我們就來討論你和你做了這個行為要有結果之後才會變成在被規範的範圍裡面我想這很明顯是應該是一個限縮這樣子的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6721.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6739.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那所以我想在這個過程尤其是剛剛在程旭發言的過程當中其實有很多委員會覺得說我們是不是擴大了範圍等等這個我覺得其實我們如果不是從範圍來講的話其實今天在第一款的文字上面我們把它加上了足以生為漢 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6740.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6759.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
足以生危害這幾個字就表示我們在構成要件中增加了它的明確性其實是對於未來不管是國人也好或者是行政司法或者任何人在判斷這件事情對國安有沒有影響的時候其實是加了一個條件我們在這裡來討論它所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6760.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6775.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
大家應該要先支持啦我個人建議我是支持的啦那我也希望大家可以支持我們把這段文字先這概念先加上去至於剛剛因為在休息時間的時候也有其他委員說那竹子生股危害於後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6776.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6794.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
國家安全社會安定等等這個名詞是不是應該要這樣寫那樣寫我覺得這可以另外又是另外一個針點我們再來討論嘛你說社會安定好像不是一般的法律用語等等這可以另外討論但我認為在這第一款當中加上這個足以生危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6794.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6816.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
其實是應該是大家可以支持的因為不管是在本黨這邊認為是在國安事件當中我們應該要把這個規範明確化或者是這個國民黨委員當中主張說不能過分限縮人民那不好意思我覺得這個其實是更加的明確是保障人民不會隨便觸犯法律以上這是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6817.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6831.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
好 謝謝我補充介紹一下林議警委員也來到現場根據剛剛有舉手發言的我接下來請許中信委員發言接下來高金素梅委員 張志倫委員還有王洪輝委員 林議警委員都有舉手 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6834.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6858.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席各位同仁其實我剛才蠻於串這兩黨要溝通這個意見所以太晚舉手其實我是最早對這個條文發表部分贊同的見解的各位看這條文資助發展資助捐50塊錢台幣就是資助所以現行條文太廣所以的確有修正的必要那所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6860.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6887.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就像剛才我跟黃捷委員所講這個足以這個在刑法上叫做結果犯反而是比較嚴足以生危害國家安全這個是反而比較不會犯所以我贊成這樣修因為這個是保障人民言論跟行為的自由但是後面那個社會安定我家住在安定旁邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6888.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6909.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
什麼叫做社會安定坦白講我沒有看過法律上因為今天是國家安全法我們的法條是國家安全法所以我們是以國家安全為目標所以社會安定即使我製作安定盤我也不贊同那麼足以產生這個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6913.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6933.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
在第二款參與全管組織足以生危害國家安全這個第二款這樣修我也贊成但是後面那個或社會安定我也反對或社會安定那五個字以上我希望說第三款第四款我們行政院跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6935.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6950.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那個只是一項那個我沒有意見所以我比較有意見的是在於社會安定這五個字社會安定這五個字至於足以這個國民黨對這兩個字有意見可能他們會提出來要主管機關來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6952.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6971.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 謝謝許中興委員你是對贊成第二條但是對於這個對於社會安定這個覺得還可以再討論你建議要拿掉那之後如果行政院這邊可以回應的話我們再做一個回應接下來我們請高金素梅委員請發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6976.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7003.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
謝謝我在這邊還是針對第二條剛剛不管是梁副主委的發言或是民進黨的立委能力發言或是許中興委員的發言其實大家都有非常多的意見就我個人我認為就是意圖危害國安把它改成足以生危害當然許中興委員有他的看法但是我們看整個國安法的修法就是要前置人民的思想 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7004.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7030.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
就是要牽制人民的思想所以竹女生其實它也是一個抽象的非常模糊的一個界線意圖也非常模糊所以我認為意圖要界是人權保障的防火牆如果要把這些拿掉的話那可能就只是用抽象的危險推論人民入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7031.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7059.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
刑法是已经有了外患罪我认为根本就不应该在国安法里面另外再创造不明确的国安构成的要件更何况刚刚有讲到第二条跟第七条跟第八条之一其实有联动的关系我认为第二条最大的问题是刑法的门槛往前移但是行为的界限却没有划清楚例如什么叫做参与组织 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7060.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7088.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
什麼叫做中間人是加入群組嗎出席活動呢安排見面呢還是真的接受了任何任務收受了資助或者是協助滲透這些東西如果講不清楚沒有在法條裡面讓人民確定的安心我認為只要是正常的兩岸學術宗教經貿文化交流都可能會被放到所謂的刑事風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7090.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7117.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
更何況現在呢又把行政單位行政機關拿出來行政機關他有裁量權如果行政機關認為你是這樣子他就可以先罰你一百萬上次梁副主委在這邊講說我們的回應我們的質詢他有講到一個非常赤裸裸的說法這個赤裸裸的說法是什麼呢因為現在國安法定罪率很低所以我們要修國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7119.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7148.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我覺得行政單位的梁副主任您是法官嗎?您怎麼會這樣的回應呢?您是法律的仲裁者嗎?所以其實呢從很多的質詢的過程當中我們就可以看到我們的行政單位或者是行政院你們要修國安法你們的初衷是在哪裡?原來是定政率太低了所以要修國安法我覺得不可思議啊民進黨以前你們理想在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7149.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7177.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
民進黨以前你們理想就是避免思想入役所以廢了刑法100條不是嗎那你們現在要把它修嚴要修得更模糊我覺得這不是人民百姓所期待的所以我認為第二條也好第七條也好第八條之一也好我認為這次的國安法不管是行政院的版本或者是民進黨委員你們提的版本我認為都有很大的討論空間所以我覺得要保留謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7178.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7204.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝高金素梅委員你對第二條第七條第八條之一都還有意見那我們先往下走那接下來請張志倫委員發言謝謝主席那我現在還是先討論第二條那第二條裡面剛剛有講說足以他是修把它改成過去是沒有增加這些條現在是把它改成說足以身為害於國家安全以社會安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7205.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7228.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個足以的定義我認為本席這邊還是認為不太清楚到底現在是要加嚴國安法還是要放寬國安法到底是要針對哪一些人認為他們足以還是不足以我覺得這個行政機關沒有解釋清楚以及我們剛剛很多委員都提到說其實大家對於國安都是一定要支持國安可是何謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7229.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7253.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
危害社會安定這樣子不是更沒有明確性嗎所以他跟這次我們行政院這邊提的版本其實是志向矛盾的他這個法條就相對於沒有明確性而且增加了法條到底是要擴張還是限縮國安法現在到底是哪一些人在你這樣子國安法的修正之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7254.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7277.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個行政單位可以來去協助的那以及剛剛特別有講到有一位上校一位參與了這個有違反國安的一個活動所以就是要去就是要去懲罰他懲戒他那本席當然是以支持那當然後來那個剛剛聽梁副主委講他也被懲罰了可是針對所有參與組織的人足以生 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7278.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7298.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
危害國家安全社會安定所有參與的都要來懲罰那請問一般民眾如何了解他參與的這些團體跟這些社會這個會造成民眾的不安就是跟過去早期大家所害怕的是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7300.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7326.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個為了寧可殺錯就是不願意漏殺那這樣子對台灣的民主社會來講是一個很沉重的打擊所以拜託行政機關還是要多做說明 以上好 謝謝張志倫委員那剛剛補充介紹林楚瑩委員來到內政委員會 謝謝那接下來發言有林益謹委員 王紅薇委員還有張宏祿委員那是請林益謹委員先 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7329.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7344.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
謝謝主席有關於第二條這邊我想說明一下我的提案文字我是在第二條新增一款禁止事項就是禁止用AI產生不實影音或圖片危害國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7345.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7361.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
之所以在國安法特別寫進這一款是因為我們在AI基本法第五條有列政府應避免人工智慧機應用有侵害國家安全資訊誤導或造假等違反相關法規之情勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7362.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7379.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
因為有訂了這個條文的內容那既然有AI基本法作為所謂的指示其他法律修法的基本法所以我想這相對應的國家安全的法規在這邊就有檢討的必要那法務部有跟我們辦公室做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7379.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7393.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
他說其實現在SMB遙遠而應受刑法或行政法處置的法規就有刑法、災害防救法、傳染病防治法、糧食管理法等多種法律那也有不同的法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7394.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7422.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
可是本席認為考量當代有人會惡意以AI生成足以危害國家安全的資訊尤其是影像跟音訊我覺得它的惡性惡性重大的惡性也就是不法性再加上涉及國家安全的事項顯然比單純散佈這個謠言嚴重很多那如果越沒有AI基本法所揭示的透明與可解釋性的這個原則那其後果真的不堪設想 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7423.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7451.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以簡單來講就是惡意用AI來產製不實資訊是惡性之一涉及國家安全事項惡性是其二至於說會不會有法規重疊的問題我覺得在AI基本法已經有清楚揭示相關原則的情況之下AI假訊息影響國家安全在國家安全法裡面應該被重視所以在文字上就是後半段那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7452.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7475.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
因為我的文字吼我的增加這一款我唸一下全文就是利用人工智慧或數位科技技術生成或散佈身為影像依序或虛假資訊足以生危害於國家安全社會安定或誤導公眾認知那我可以吼就是說把最後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7476.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7495.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
社會安全或誤導公眾認識去掉那保留到這個逐生危害於國家安全這裡就好以上好 謝謝提案林議警委員那接下來我們請王宏威委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7498.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7526.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好謝謝主席就是我們第二條我們現在剛才討論到的就是說在原條文加上足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定那這部分呢我有聽到剛才各委員的意見比如說像石中信委員在我們這個休息時間在在協商的時候他也認為這個事實上是讓法這個整個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7527.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7554.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
綠的條文更為明確但是我我個人是因為我剛才聽到我們綠耳會的梁文傑副主委的說明我認為可能大家是不是有所曲解因為他剛才有特別講就說這個第二條應該要跟第七條一起來看的因為第七條是法則第七條是法則那所以呢你看第七條它的原條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7556.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7576.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他剛才講的其實也蠻清楚他說第七條的原條文他怎麼樣才要處罰呢是意圖危害國家安全或者社會安定那意圖雖然我們覺得意圖也是很抽象的概念但是意圖它有主觀上的故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7577.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7605.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
主觀上的故意所以他剛才也特別講就是說因為有一個這樣的意圖但是也許行政單位司法單位認為你這個確實已經有危害國家安全跟社會安定但是可是有一些人他的參與或者他前面的第二條的作為他沒有主觀上的故意他並不知道也許他甚至不知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7606.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7626.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以修了第二條足以生危害其實他不是修得更寬他是修得更嚴為什麼呢因為到了第七條他要處罰他的時候我管你有沒有意圖我管你有沒有故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7627.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7640.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
但是只要我主管機關或者司法單位認為就是會發生這些事情啊我認為就是會發生這些事情就是危害我們的國家安全啊那我就可以罰你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7642.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7667.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
根據剛才我對於這個我們梁文傑副主委他所這個的說明我相信我沒有做錯誤的誤解因為他剛才很明確說第二條跟第七條要一起來看因為第七條是處分那至於剛才那個徐中信委員特別講他認為說國家安全我們比較清楚不然他們為什麼有國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7667.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7695.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但是所謂的社會安定因為確實它極為籠統什麼叫做足以危害社會安定我們過去有好多例子就是什麼樣會認為你會足以危害社會安定那比如說我們的主管機關我們過去用社會法去移送的琳瑯滿布甚至覺得你如果傳說陳菊走了嗎足以影響社會安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7697.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7716.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那如果我們也會認為你發動大罷免算不算影響社會安定呢社會造成這麼多分老到處每個市場都有人吵架打架推擠有沒有影響社會安定呢你如果法官或者是主管機關他主觀上認為足以那他也可以入你一罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7717.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7743.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以這個一足以跟第七條一比較起來我們所以我們為什麼在擔心這樣的一個修法因為我們做這些的限制做這些有關於這些國安法條它原條文都在但是它做了這樣的修正之後呢其實真的會讓我們很多沒有這一主觀的意圖或者它根本也是不知情而參與者 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7745.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7770.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那他也要入人於罪那另外參與錢款組織剛才我們梁副主委也舉了一個例子對不起這個名字我比較不熟悉他講說因為沒有這一條所以沒有辦法用國安法辦它但是還好用貪污治罪條例來辦它可是這個一參與什麼叫做參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7772.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7801.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
什麼叫做參與我想大家都很清楚啊比如說像這些組織他舉行了一個餐會我也不知道今天我就去吃飯了對不對我跟著我的朋友我朋友常去在這個組織很多嘛大家一起就去吃飯叫不叫參與那另外呢就是他們可能辦一些研討會啊什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7802.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7818.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你去參加就有一個什麼大禮包就可以拿到一些清潔用品啊或者一些環保用品我覺得蠻不錯的我也去參加而且我還參加次數很多假設這樣子他算不算是參與啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7819.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7846.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所以我覺得就是說用參與這個錢款組織也變成因為你又把這個意圖又拿掉了你第七條又把意圖拿掉所以我們擔心的會使得很多他是屬於他並不知情或者他並沒有這些相關的意圖的我們的人民而不小心而就容易觸法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7847.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7871.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
然後就被辦了 被檢舉 被檢舉的太多啦什麼在這個 大家也知道這個臉書上嘛他搞不好還po他的這個參與 他歡歡喜喜 開開心心了還覺得說 有這麼好康的 跟大家講一下這個一被截下來 被檢舉那按照這個條文他就可以被辦喔那他參與這個組織也不曉得他幹些什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7875.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7898.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
然後就用第七條來處罰他所以我們在這邊就是說在第二條的部分其實我們原條文就是說在官方裡面原條文其實相關的都已經就是有相關的規範所以現在我們的修法我們比較擔心的就是剛才大家所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7900.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7917.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
就是說你這樣子的話會不會有一些他太過抽象或者是沒有主觀意圖的人他也因此而被這樣子會因此而處罰那這一點呢就是我們還是有基於這個人權上的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7918.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7945.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
或許這個大家也可以參考一下第七條因為按照我們這個行政院版的說明我也看不出這個是要把它修得更寬或怎麼樣我看不出來我看起來是修得更嚴按照這個他的說明來講的話這個以上希望我們各位委員能夠參考 謝謝主席我們是不是請常務次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7948.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7964.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好這樣子齁因為還有兩個委員有舉手我們讓兩個委員舉手發言之後那我會請梁文傑副主委跟吳次長那針對第二條還有有沒有針對第四條有沒有繼續要討論下去那我先請張宏剛舉手張宏祿委員接下來廖先生委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7969.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7987.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
其實早上各位委員大家都對國安法提出不同的看法但我個人覺得大家都覺得這個國安法是有必要修可是大家的看法就我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7989.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8007.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
都各有論點不過我也覺得像這個國安法我們以這樣子要去規範所有的東西然後你也不分一般人民或是公務人員或是重要的人員我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8008.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8021.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
有些文字上我覺得還是剛剛聽了有些文字上是不是有需要去稍微改一下的地方所以這樣的情況之下我覺得第二條其實大家都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8023.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8046.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
有稍微共識的情況之下我們是不是也讓行政單位或什麼他們有沒有更好的想法剛剛聽了那麼多的有哪些文字可以做適度的修正這個可能等一下也請我們行政單位你們了解一下當然如果要你現在提出來我看也是有點困難但你們可以回去想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8048.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8063.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 謝謝張宏錄委員最後我們請廖先祥委員來發言之後讓行政單位來做一個回覆好不好謝謝好 謝謝主席我想國安大家都支持那再也或者是說許多人民中擔心是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8063.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8092.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
就是擔心國家以國安之名來行言論自由或者是民眾的思想自由的一個前置甚至是用來鞏固政權的一個手段跟工具國民擔心的是這一點我也是建議行政單位應該要針對這樣子的角度去切入才能夠去說服有不一樣想法的一些民眾那回到條文的本身第二題剛剛大家講最多的足以兩個字其實剛剛就不 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8093.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8117.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
不講這個民眾黨跟國民黨啦就剛剛蘇巧慧委員對族裔的理解好像跟梁文傑副主委的理解好像不太一樣這個蘇巧慧委員是說他是一個結果才有族裔族裔有一個結果而不是思想犯他是變成一個結果才有族裔但是在講的時候我看梁文傑副主委的表情好像跟我們昨天在中常會復婚期總召的表情有點一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8118.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8143.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你們有空可以看一下好像有點疑問啦所以說我覺得光這兩個字可能民進黨自己內部官員跟民意代表的看法都不一樣了那怎麼說服社會大眾這是一個過程要見明確的一個法律用詞我覺得這是大家所疑問的啦那回到法條這個任何人不得為外國大陸地區等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8144.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8163.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
而以下行為那其實在李貞秀委員的案子的時候許多的民進黨委員或是行政院官員都說中華人民共和國的憲法我不知道你們講的應該是憲法有規範每一位國民都有為國家收集情報的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8164.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8181.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那這樣子的理解下的話那是不是所有跟所有中華人民共和國的國民雖然說我們不承認他們啦但我想這樣大陸地區的人民都有都是符合法令上面的要件我們只要跟他接觸了我們都有可能犯法 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8181.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8210.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
如果說是順著民進黨的一個法理的邏輯來看的話會有這樣子的一個擔心那足以傷害國家安全或社會安定說實在危害國家安全說實在這個其實這東西我不確定法律到底有沒有很明確的界定但是其實在很多親友朋友啦其實他們是不是就認為其實國民黨的立委在立法院裡面就已經足以危害國家安全了那我是不是犯法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8212.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8229.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
大家有這樣的疑問嘛對不對我是不是要被拆去關了所以說這樣子的過程要見大家會認為相當的不明確啊那就不用講到社會安定的部分薛委員也有提嘛那第二點這個參與錢款組織那就是說每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8232.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8255.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
大陸的國民大陸的居民都有收取情報的義務那是不是每一個他們的組織包括學校我們去做學校交流的時候都算是參與組織那所以產生後面國家安全或社會安定我剛剛講的法律不明確的情況我這個對這個國防預算我們用財政的角度財政紀律角度來看有疑義的時候我不是我要國家安全那就不能說給國家太大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8257.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8275.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
解釋的空間那回到剛剛講的我們是不是用國安之名來牽制這個民眾的言論思想和網路使用的自由來達到政權鞏固的一個目的我覺得這個是大家要思考的換另外一個角度來講因為我們限制的不只是大陸地區還包括外國 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8276.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8294.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那外國有資助的組織那比如說我們一些前陣子美國有資助一些或者是所謂世界基金有資助國內的一些團體那這些團體說如果說這個飛彈打過來對我們比較有幫助那請問一下它是不是受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8295.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8320.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
外國資助的組織然後來發表大陸的飛彈打過來對他們的組織有幫助這樣子有沒有危害國家的安全我覺得這是另外一個角度可以思考的東西既然有這麼多不確定的東西我們就希望說情侶機關應該針對這些意義來做多一些署名以上 謝謝好 謝謝廖先祥 趙偉我補充介紹我們徐欣穎委員也回到現場 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8322.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8350.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那在讓陸委會跟內政部來說明之前許中信委員強烈想要再補充一下許委員因為台灣民眾黨存在的價值就是要提供一個專業的法律意見剛才我們有提到意圖犯還有結果犯中間還有一個危險犯意圖犯最容易犯也就是最廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8351.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8353.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那麼結果最不會換最嚴那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8357.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8387.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
之餘的危險犯在中間所以呢我個人認為第七條用意圖太廣把它限制為足以這個結果犯足以這兩個字在我們刑法上的確都是在表達產生犯罪的結果的表達方式那如果有同仁認為足以不夠明確我坦白講我從法學上也找不出其他的語言那足以這個就是結果犯最不容易犯而意圖是最容易犯只要有那個意圖就犯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8388.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8416.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那中間的就是之餘有那個可能性有那個單率就會換那是在中間所以我個人同法學上提供這樣一個意見讓各位從法學的專業看能不能達到一個共識而我很堅決就是那個或社會安定這個真的不適宜在國家安全法那只是拿石頭砸自己腳陸委會用這樣做是拿石頭砸自己腳這五個字拿掉爭議會比較少以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8420.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8434.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好謝謝許中信委員不知道這個法律用語可不可以說服其他有意見的委員我們等一下讓行政部門來說明之後我們來協商一下好不好好請梁文傑副主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8444.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8469.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
首先就關於這個原來的第七條的意圖意圖生危害於國家安全或社會安定我們現在是把它改成足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定所以其實爭論的就是意圖跟足以生就是這樣那社會安定這四個字是本來就在第七條裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8471.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8490.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
許委員講的這個部分它是本來就在第七條裡面那至於要不要刪除那個也許可以大家再協商但是這個我們剛才所討論的這個就是說如果大家委員想要保留意圖的話那就是很廣就像許委員講的這範圍就很廣那我們留下來原來這個範圍很廣的這個意圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8494.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8518.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個到底是好或不好還是把它改成一個比較能夠看到用結果來評斷的這個叫足以生就是這樣那另外一個就是關於參與的部分什麼叫做參與因為各位委員剛剛所想的都是提出來都是一些想像中的例子但是我們現在碰到的真實的例子是譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8519.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8544.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們現在軍中 我剛剛講到向德恩的案件他其實不是孤立 是非常多的案件 其中一個那就是被中共的間諜找他 然後叫他拍這個效忠影片然後簽下說如果中共軍隊侵犯台灣的話 我不抵抗那影片跟這些意象書都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8546.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8552.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以在定義上面我們會說他是參與但是在國安法裡面沒有參與這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8554.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8576.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以我們才會把參與放進去所以參與這兩個字它一定有它的特殊的意義它不是說你今天去一個宴會去參加了這個宴會就叫做參與組織那我想參與的這個部分呢我請我們這個法務部的司長來說明一下我們其實是比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8578.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8590.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個參與犯罪組織來說的組織犯罪條例也有相關的規定這麼多年來也有對於參與是什麼意思也會有一些解釋好不好謝謝謝謝我們請法務部檢察司司長張司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8596.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8611.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
你可以站起來對這邊說明一下謝謝主席各位委員那跟各位委員報告一下就是說我們那個犯罪的構成要件要有主觀構成要件跟客觀構成要件那主觀構成要件當然就是他明知道這個犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8612.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8637.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
可能會成立那他也有意要使他成立這是主觀構成要件所以即使是把意圖拿掉我們在案件的判斷上還是必須要認定這個人他是不是有犯罪的故意存在的那至於說足以身為害的這個構成要件的話就如同那個徐委員講的其實他是更視為嚴格那在現行的不管是刑法或者是相關的其他特別法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8638.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8656.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
其實都有很多關於我們用這個足以生危害或者是足以生損害這樣的構成要件在現行的法規裡面其實都已經很多那在食物的運作上也都並沒有發生困難那如果我們只是單純用意圖而沒有後面這個要件的話其實是反而更容易去入人於罪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8656.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8673.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以我們行政院的版本就是把這個足以生為害於國家安全或社會安定的這個要件把它放入到這個裡面那另外就是關於參與組織的這個部分那我們當然就是仿照那個組織犯罪防治條例裡面它本身就有一個參與組織罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8675.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8694.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那參與組織罪你要去構成它你還是要有主觀的犯罪故意還有客觀的犯罪要件去成立之後你才會去成立這個犯罪你不會說我單純去參與一個什麼樣的宮廟活動或是參與一個什麼樣的婚宴你就會構成犯罪這不可能是這個樣子你一定是主觀上你要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8695.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8715.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
參與這個危害國家安全或社會安定的這樣一個組織存在那你才會去構成這個犯罪的情形發生那另外就是要跟各位委員報告就是說有關於這個社會安定的部分那剛才其實那個梁副主委也有提到其實我們現行的國安法第七條本身就有社會安定的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8716.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8733.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個要件在裡面那其實社會安定的這個名詞在我們現行的法規中其實也有很多包括那個我們在這個大量解雇勞工保護法啦公司法啦入出國籍移民法裡面有多部法律都是有這個社會安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8734.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8755.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個要件存在那當然這個社會安定也就是因為說我們社會上的一個秩序的這個維護它是跟我們國家的安全其實是息息相關的舉例而言比方說如果一個這個資助這個某人去這個在社會上這個假設去 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8756.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8783.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
不管是殺人或者是傷害隨機的傷害那這樣子的一個危害社會安定的這樣子的一個行為他未必會是直接跟國家安全有關但是他其實會引起民眾的一個恐慌所以我們認為說這個社會安定的這個要件還是必須要放在這裡去做一個規範會比較妥適那以上補充報告好謝謝我們現在就足以跟這個社會安定的部分大家來做一下討論我先休息謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8787.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8788.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8797.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8806.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
還是一樣第二條,原則是逆潮啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8825.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8832.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
沒有任何變化,無限輪迴,這裡給你坐我11點有訪客換我,我們兩個多家庭我11點有訪客沒有差別但是他們還是不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8847.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8870.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好 你說剛剛我們主委會這邊有說明嗎好 我要你坐 我有訪客 換你坐我也只能坐一下 我也是等一下還有事 我想說我要先回來你不坐了我11點有訪客 我剛剛一直在找機會發言但我覺得他們激動 我要先聽聽他們荒謬的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8872.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8897.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以在法律上的人所以在法律上的人在法律上的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8900.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8901.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我來 要退車了 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8928.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8928.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
拜拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8936.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8955.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
對,如今那個大概幾分鐘多點,有辦法快速通知木馬?他就快發一百萬人,讓你行政單位,讓你行政單位,讓人有一定的發揮。沒有,沒有,這個過程不太干擾人,讓人一生幸福,而不是說特定的病人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8960.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8971.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
你只要親身在外面認識他,他就是你的兒子我行為完成就要回收照片就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8975.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8980.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
陳傑說有水管要推車,他說現在可以過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8999.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9001.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好 好 好 嗨嗨 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9026.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9041.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個我教刑法的這個大家可能有點誤會他那個一定要有實害他沒有那個足深的那一個危險他不可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9060.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9071.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
但是那個是不同條就是說你剛講的是第四條然後現在他們用的是第二條那足身損害這個是用在第二條第四條不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9074.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9079.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
而且第四條應該是包環你看 你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9097.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9101.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你已經讓人很溫暖 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9121.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9126.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他沒有實際的作為沒有實際的作為譬如說他沒有注意過戰鬥 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9134.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9135.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這裏有個大廈,有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9151.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9153.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
謝謝大家收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9175.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9200.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9211.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9212.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9233.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9233.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9255.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9258.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
對呀,對呀,對呀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9273.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9294.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
對,但是不動盤是還要修訂的,所以我們也要做一段時間,因為不動盤是還要修訂的,所以我們也要做一段時間,因為不動盤是還要修訂的,所以我們也要做一段時間,因為不動盤是還要修訂的,所以我們也要做一段時間,因為不動盤是還要修訂的,所以我們也要做一段時間,因為不動盤是還要修訂的,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間,所以我們也要做一段時間, |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9321.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9328.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9331.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9344.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9358.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9381.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
鮪魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9382.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9402.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我講的就是你打手了以後過來會怎麼樣都是你選擇過來就是這樣嗎?好,你問你都得問我好,不問你都得問我好,不問你都得問我 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9415.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9422.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好,好,好,OK |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9444.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9447.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
嗯嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9472.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9480.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9483.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9503.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
想吃一點美式餐館嗎?對啊,我們可以來一家餐廳吃一間吧?好,我們來一家餐廳吃一間吧?好,我們來一家餐廳吃一間吧?好,我們來一家餐廳吃一間吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9509.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9512.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9551.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9552.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好我們繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9568.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9573.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
主席我們請徐教授講兩條文字可不可以怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9583.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9602.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好剛剛剛剛許中信委員很認真的做一些協商那我們請許中信委員說明一下剛剛協商有沒有結論那如果沒有的話我們就保留進行下一條來許委員好高津委員也要講一下那請高津先講沒有我想說好好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9604.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9621.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我覺得那個中信委員他是站在一個學術專業的地方提供大家的意見我覺得這是好事那我還是要回顧到一下當時行政院提的版本的時候第一個並沒有跟大家充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9622.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9646.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
以至於民進黨的委員也就提出了版本然後在立法院就開始在這邊政治操作這是我們覺得很遺憾的地方第二點我覺得第二條應該把它保留下來的原因是因為中心委員講得很好就是把議題拿掉反而是這個主語聲是更大的範圍然後大家更模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9647.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9661.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那如果是行政院或者是各委員提案的委員的想法也是想像也是這樣我覺得更應該把保留下來我們是不是會來用更精準的方式而也不要讓民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9662.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9686.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
讓人家誤會你們在政治操作或是要讓大家思想入獄或者是閒置大家的言論自由所以我的建議是第二條我們還是保留下來我們再充分的討論然後再把更精準的文字把它加上去謝謝好 謝謝高知市委會議員剛才我回想起來 我覺得想法不是說為了一種是白色社會思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9688.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9703.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
要怎麼讓這個國家保存好 這一家什麼都沒什麼管理吧謝謝美惠議員 謝謝美惠委員來 沈博洋委員剛剛有舉手沈博洋委員講完 那我們請徐中興委員針對第二條我們就做一個結束 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9705.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9726.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我快速再說明一下因為我剛剛前面有說明過第一個在程序上面是有詢答也有公聽會我相信這個其實是一個有被討論的條文第二個就是剛剛其實剛剛在下面大家討論有提到就是意圖拿掉這件事情這其實非常的重要不然的話你意圖就可以入人於罪的話這是一件危險的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9727.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9741.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
但是你意圖拿掉你還是要用別的要件去把它做限制所以才會有足深損害足深危害這樣的一個文字這個在我是寫過刑法教科書的人所以我覺得還是我覺得我講話應該還是剛有說需要一點學術的討論我就是教刑法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9745.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9773.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那足身損害這件事情它就是一個具體危險那它不用直接到剛剛我們在下面討論的它不用到一個實害的結果但是它還是要有一個危險的結果這個危險的結果如果你把足身損害拿掉的話它會變抽象危險犯那反而很危險所以加了足身損害這件事情讓它變具體危險犯很多人會講說那這樣還是很容易入人於罪或什麼之類的我們實務上只要遇到具體危險犯檢察官都必須要蒐集具體危險的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9775.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9798.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
不然的話我們在刑法上設計具體危險跟抽象危險就沒有任何意義了所以這其實是非常重要的事情那最後還是要提到就是第二款參與這個部分剛剛我相信梁副理也有提到就是參與這個是原本我們法律就有的文字有些人會覺得說參與這兩個字不明確沒有參與它就是在刑法上這個我們叫做共犯正犯化什麼意思呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9798.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9823.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
在刑法上大家應該都聽過什麼叫做共犯比如說教唆犯、幫助犯但是在有一些條文裡面會把幫助犯直接變成獨立的條文把它變成一種正犯就像這樣參與所以參與的內涵就是在法律上不管是物理的幫助等等之類精神的幫助這個參與是直接有法律定義的事情它一點都不模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9824.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9844.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
他非常的明確他是一個共犯正方化的條文所以呢希望我們討論能夠在更聚焦在專業這件事情上面謝謝好謝謝沈博洋委員最後我們再請許中信委員來對法律來做一個說明謝謝謝謝主席鄉行法在第二條對資助 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9847.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9855.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
就過程犯罪太廣所以我們把它修成足以生存危害國家安全這是比較嚴格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9857.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9878.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
反而是一個好的修法但是呢或社會安定這個不適合在國安法雖然市長講完我還是不接受因為國安法不應該有這個社會安定的要件你這樣只是讓國民黨找到對你們的批評而已沒辦法成事情所以或社會安定我還是覺得一定要拿掉至於參與這個錢款的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9882.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9897.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
足深危害國家安全我覺得要為什麼呢像我這樣一個不重要的人參與該組織不會產生危害國家安全我無罪但是像梁文傑這種重要的人他參與這種組織會產生危害國家安全他有罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9898.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9915.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這就讓我們法官可以去具體的認定到底他去參與這個組織有沒有足深危害國家安全這反而是一個好事所以我個人不管你們兩黨有什麼差異我就是秉持台灣民眾黨要的專業、理性、務實來跟各位提供這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9917.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9936.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
謝謝許中信委員有一點點跟民進黨有一點點共識啦但是我們還會繼續跟國民黨這邊來溝通第二條那我在這邊宣告我們第二條就先請保留之後再來做討論希望這個過程裡面許中信委員可以發揮這個大家有共識的部分我們繼續來溝通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9939.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9962.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
主席,在這裡我補充一個,剛才我們剛才所說的社會安定拿掉,我認為社會安定拿掉,我認為沒有做很多還OK可以拿掉,對,跟我說是不是,如果可以,就這條交,來處理還是怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9966.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9979.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們也尊重國民黨啊還是要保留,因為他對主委還有意見嘛對參與也有意見參與跟主委都還有意見嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9981.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10009.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
也沒意義啊 你先拿掉也沒意義因為你第二條就還沒有共識啊社會安定先拿掉好 查理跟主委再來討論好不好就第二條都已經沒有啦抱歉啦 中心委員其實呢大家都是以前以往的這個案例都是第二條有意見我們就大家第二條保留沒有說在裡面在文字中那未來你可以再提文字修正嘛好不好再討論第二條的時候 謝謝好 謝謝那我們第二條就先予以保留齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10010.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10022.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那我們跟委員會報告我們第二條討論了大概一個多小時那我們再加速一下我們在第三條第四條我先請內政部來做一個說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10029.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10057.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那個主席跟各位那第三條因為不是院版的因為沈伯陽委員有提案沈伯陽委員要不要說明然後等一下請內政部針對第三條第四條做一個說明謝謝報告詹委員是不是不在的委員我們按照慣例我們就不處理好那請沈伯陽委員先說明好那這個其實是跟就兩個部分而已其實比較容易就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10058.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10084.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
剛剛我在第二條的時候有提到說希望能夠把這個關鍵基礎設施把它納入進去不要只是單純用公務秘密因為這樣會更明確那第三條我這邊在這邊處理的不是關鍵不是基礎設施處理的是國家的核心關鍵技術那國家核心的關鍵技術這個其實是有明確定義的所以我們是希望在第三條裡面在關於洩漏或交付直接把這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10087.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10105.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
國家安全技術之營業秘密把它放在第五跟第六款這是第一個那第二個就是我剛剛有提到就是中間人的規範那因為有八條之一所以呢如果要處理八條之一的話我這邊就不用堅持說要把中間人放在這個第二條跟第三條謝謝好 謝謝沈博洋委員黃婕委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10111.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10125.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那我在這邊原本原本寫的是說國家核心的關鍵技術之營業秘密但是因為可能會有遇到一些廠商或者是一些一些企業他們如果沒有說他這個是他的保密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10126.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10148.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
的內容但是在法律上就不是他的營業秘密但是如果他的這一些技術也被竊取了那就沒有辦法用國安法來處罰所以我是把這個國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密改成國家核心的關鍵技術就是無論他是不是這個企業的營業秘密如果被竊取了都應該要可以適用這個國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10148.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10174.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
而且因为现在间谍窃取的技术都是经过长期的刺探布局所以我认为应该我们也要再往前更及时的阻止所以我也有增订说禁止刺探收集还有传递的行为那所以这个虽然这一次法务部没有修那我是认为说接下来这样的问题还是会屡见不鲜然后还是会不断的出现所以这样的问题未来法务部还是得面对 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10176.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10205.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好謝謝我先請內政部來做一個說明你可以針對第三條跟第四條第四條之一來做說明謝謝好 齋偉各位委員我想第三條把有關關鍵核心的一個技術還有一些產業的一個秘密的部分把它再更明確化那我想我們內政部這邊是會也予以尊重跟支持那我想我就第四條的部分來跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10206.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10220.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
第四條我會跟四之一來一起說明那我想在四之一的部分就是是不太 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10225.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10243.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好 沒關係 我們現在處理第三條好 那我們來處理第三條 有沒有意見這樣齁 因為事實上我看到因為這個大概就是民進黨各位委員意見沒有行政院版嘛齁那其實在民進黨委員的意見的條文裡面其實就有很大的分歧 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10244.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10265.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那有一些是維持原版本就是國家關鍵核心技術之營業秘密那我也看到包含黃階委員或者現在不在場的像好像邱志偉委員我剛瞄到邱志偉委員他的方向也是把那個營業秘密拿掉把那個營業秘密拿掉那所以我覺得可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10266.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10273.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
本身這不同版本的方向都不一致我們聚焦三個提案委員在這裡我們討論他們三個什麼委員跟黃介維兩個就是不一樣了再討論我想我們現場應該有國安會或者是有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10285.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10308.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
對經濟部好不好因為我們最近發生確實發生台積電那最近官方還是辦了就是台積電的他的洩露洩露他的那個他的技術那這個官方還是有辦還有官方還是有辦所以我因為我想現場我們是不是先有等一下對不起我看一下今天國安會有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10314.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10321.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
國安會還有經濟部可不可以做一個說明好不好我們相關的單位 謝謝國安局陳副處長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10340.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10355.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
包委員因為我們現在這個是有關這個國家安全關鍵技術這個是國安法第三條在處理對那這個相關在因為實務上這個案例上我們在局裡面不會有過多的揭露對不起我沒有聽清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10358.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10376.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們實際上因為我們局裡面是負責蒐集相關情資那這個案例上我們不太會介入這個實際上運作案例有關於國安法第三條這個涉及國家基金管理技術的部分好謝謝那等一下經濟部跟法務部也說明一下好不好經濟部是知識財產局還是產業技術司 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10384.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10411.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
經濟部代表說明就是有關於這個國安法裡面國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密的部分那這個有關於這個建議刪除這個營業秘密的部分那我們要表達的是說這個因為國家國安法裡面的國家核心關鍵技術包括已經公開的專利還有沒有公開的營業秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10412.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10439.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
而這個國家核心關鍵技術如果是一個已公開的專利因為這個技術已經公開之後任何人都可以知曉所以這個部分單位有所謂的竊取的這個行為然後呢這個法條裡面所謂的參考這個美國聯邦刑法1831條所謂的經濟間諜隊也是以營業秘密做一個保護的對象以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10444.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10471.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
來 法務部這邊做一下說明 謝謝主席 各位委員 跟各位委員報告有關國安法第三條 憲刑法第三條部分我們是限定在國家核心公安技術的營業秘密主要還是說我們要把範圍限縮在屬於營業秘密的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10472.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10499.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那因為如果是單純以國家核心關鍵技術的話他的那個範圍可能太過廣泛那直接用刑法來處罰可能是還是有違這個比例原則或罪行相當的原則這樣子的一個情況存在那另外跟各位委員報告就是說有關台積電的案件那他所偵辦的這個法條是現行法第三條第二項也就是那個域外使用罪那他是依照這個現行法第三條第二項來偵辦的那以上補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10505.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10510.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好謝謝那國科會也有來我們請國科會的何副處長來做一下說明謝謝來桌上麥克風麻煩一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10517.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10537.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
報告各位委員那依照國安法第三條呢國科會這邊的職責呢是去針對國家關鍵核心技術的認定那就誠如剛剛包含經濟部製裁局以及法務部的這個長官所續名的那目前在保護的主體其實就針對營業秘密以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10548.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10549.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
司法院請你表達一下,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10557.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10585.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
主席各位委員各位先進好司法院主要是要就國家核心關鍵技術這個部分表示一些意見那關於委員邱志偉等人說你去的草案呢這個草案第三條說明第一點是表示將國家核心關鍵技術與營業秘密與以區別但是同條的第三項跟第六項仍然維持營業秘密的要件所以有個疑問就是國家核心關鍵技術的性質是不是仍然屬於營業秘密那文字調整的實意 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10586.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10600.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
為何如果已經不屬營業秘密這個事件是不是仍然依照國家安全法第18條的第二項他的第一層管轄法院是不是仍然屬於智慧財產及商業法院呢這個有釐清的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10601.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10626.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那就委员黄杰等人所拟据的草案的部分草案第三条的立法理由是指出说国家核心关键技术不需符合营业秘密之合理保密措施要件但是营业秘密法第二条的第三款是规定说所有人已采取合理的保密措施则客观上是否确实存在没有合理保密措施而需要保护的国家核心关键技术呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10627.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10654.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那纵使不需符合合理保密措施的要件是不是还要符合营业秘密其他的秘密性跟价值性的其他的要件呢又是否认为说国家核心关键技术不具有营业秘密的性质呢如果已经不属于营业秘密的话跟刚才的疑问是类似这个事件是不是仍然依照国安法的第18条第二项规定第一层管辖权仍然是属于智慧财产及商业法院呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10656.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10677.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這個建請釐清謝謝好謝謝看來還有很多需要再釐清的部分那黃杰倫跟沈博洋委員有沒有再說明好謝謝因為剛剛最主要在討論就是說到底要不要隱隱秘秘這樣這一個限制還是不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10677.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10696.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那我還是再說明一下就是我最主要這個部分我反而比較不堅持我比較要討論的是因為我是增訂了行為因為本來本來是竊取啦然後呢明明你知道結果你沒有授權你又洩露啦你明明知道呢結果你又去取得啦本來是這樣規定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10697.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10724.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那我規定的是不具備原本的這些特定的身份而是他單純就是洩露交付傳遞國家核心關鍵就是營業秘密或者刺探搜集這些所以我是把這些行為太陽增訂在五跟六所以稍微再說明一下那我們在營業秘密這個部分還沒有辦法再聚焦的時候我們這一條也先進行保留好不好不堅持那沈博洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10726.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10740.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我覺得行為這部分希望還是要能夠鎮定 比較不受污染好的 那我們第三條就保留 謝謝好 接下來我們請內政部先說明第四條跟第四之一 謝謝好 謝謝趙偉還有各位委員那我想我這邊先做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10741.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10765.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那在公民跟政治權利國際公約二十條一項其實它就有規定只要是任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳就應以法律禁止之所以我們在看待我們的第四條跟第四至一條的部分那我們也有考慮過第一個是不是這個還要兼顧到言論自由的保障所以我們在這次徵定裡面的話這個是所謂的行政裁法 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10766.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10784.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
也就是針對包括實體還有跟網際網路的鼓吹有戰爭言論或公開散佈國家安全等錯假信息那這個部分是予以來做一個處理那我想這個是四跟四四之一再把它更明確化然後並訂定相關罰則的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10786.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10799.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那我這邊也要補充說明一下在四支裡面有關網際網路的部分其實這個建築與像我們的兒少法就是兒童少年福利跟權益保障法還有我們的防詐條例就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10801.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10822.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
詐欺犯罪危害防治條例裡面其實都有針對網際網路的一些限制那譬如說在俄賽法的46條有談到限制跟接取瀏覽必要時還要先行移除那對於不得違反的規定會定在第69條不得報導然後罰則會定在89這是在俄賽法 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10826.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10846.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那另外在相關的像詐欺條例的部分那我們在防詐的部分在第30條也有不得在網際網路做宣導而且在32條也有所謂的限制移除那在相關的罰則的部分例如說停止解析跟限制讀取等等部分都在40跟42條都有那我這邊會把這兩條法 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10848.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10868.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
會在這邊先跟大家報告那最主要也是我們這個國家安全法裡面這個部分針對網際網路我們把它再把它明定化那這個也是參考相關的法條來做一個處理那另外可能各位委員都會擔心說那這樣子是不是在前置言論自由的部分是不是就只要是在網際網路或者實體上有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10869.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10886.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
都算要再做管理呢那其實這個部分我再重申一下我們上次我們馬次長也有談過如果是屬於個人的政策意見的抒發或評論那這個其實不會在所謂的一個處罰的範圍那再來就是說那這種的話那有沒有在限制範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10887.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10914.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那如果在限制範圍裡面其實如果你是屬於非公開特定人間個人的一個訊息傳遞那這個部分其實在縱然他那種可能有一些爭議但是他會對我們國安的影響也較輕微而且他不是在所謂的公開的一個群組訊息做散播那這個部分其實我們是不會包含在這個第四條跟四之一的裡面的一個處罰的部分我想這個部分先再做第二個補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10915.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10939.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那最後的部分我這邊也要跟大家報告那其實這個處罰的部分大家會認為說這個罰它的性質是什麼那其實我們這個我們在規範上是把它當作是一個行政罰罰的部分那這個其實可以參考司法院施治的解釋那在司法院的等一下 等我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10950.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10975.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
在司法院的釋制其實是第517號它有解釋到因為我們的憲法並沒有去規定說違反言論自由的處罰是專屬給司法權所以說其實它有包括刑事法或者是行政法所以這個部分就由行政機關來本屬立法裁揚之權限所以我們這個的依照行政法法的處理其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10976.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11005.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
行政機關他當然會先負有調查跟裁處的一個權限那如果受處分人他會認為說有不符當然有相關的行政救濟例如書院法跟行政訴訟法他可以來提起救濟那也就是說這個行政權跟司法權其實兩個本來就各有所長我們把它定在第四條跟第四之一條其實並沒有行政權前越司法權的餘力我想大概是先就第四條跟四之一的一個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11005.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11027.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那我也跟大家報告其實在世界各國對於這個有關公民政治權利國際公約二十條的部分譬如說拉脫維亞他也把他制定上相關的煽動戰爭罪在芬蘭也有 芬蘭他是訂了他的刑法十二章二段那另外德國的刑法他也有談到一條叫做煽動他人實施侵略作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11028.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11055.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那這個部分其實都是依照國際公約相關規定其實世界各國都有應有前例來制定相關的一個法規好那我想這邊先跟各位委員做個說明好謝謝內政部的說明這一條可能大家比較有意見的話那就依序來發言那我們時間也稍微控制一下好不好希望中午可以有進度謝謝高金委員廖先祥委員王宏輝委員張志倫委員王美惠委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11059.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11077.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我覺得第四條最大的問題是把政治言論交給行政機關來認定我不需要再問一下什麼叫做鼓吹什麼叫做倡議什麼叫做支持人民討論戰爭風險兩岸的局勢不管他是統一或者是獨立會不會被罰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11080.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11098.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
條約你也沒講清楚而且你行政法最高是100萬人民最後最後就算是勝訴但是他已經身心俱疲被貼標籤然後也被這個程序折磨了所以我認為剛剛那個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11102.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11120.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
次長您的說法其實是沒有辦法說服大家的那既然你在其他的法都已經有了那其他的法處理就好了為什麼還在國安法裡面來特別賦予行政機關這樣子的權利呢那行政機關可以逾越法院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11121.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11145.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
最後當然定罪是在法院目前最後是不是這樣是在法院對吧但是呢你們在法院之前行政機關就有這樣的權限真的是太擴權了耶你只要行政機關認定你是這樣你是怎麼樣您就可以先行政裁罰然後行政裁罰的同時呢這個人可能要跑法院他不僅僅是罰錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11147.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11166.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
然後他可能就要跑法院在跑法院的過程已經被貼標籤在跑法院的過程他已經身心俱平我覺得行政機關不可以逾越法院所以我認為第四條我覺得真的實在是不應該再有這樣子的一個條文出現 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11167.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11190.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好謝謝高金委員請廖先祥委員召委謝謝謝謝主席呼應高金委員的論述其實過去國安法就產生了剛剛講的人民疲於行政法院的一個訴訟疲於奔命造成的損害國家無法給予相對應的補償我們回到之前幾年前向心夫婦的共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11191.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11215.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
也是啊這個過了這麼多年最後無罪了然後離開了那這些年來對於他的這個對他的無論是人身的自由或是心理的壓力這個才是法院的狀態而已喔如果把這個權力又下放到行政權呢那只會產生更多的一個爭議尤其國安法這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11216.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11244.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
支持這個以戰爭的手段或非和平的手段消滅我國主權啦兩種樣態嘛一樣我們可以講兩種樣態一種美國現在其實有很多人主張說台灣要不要變成美國的第幾州第五幾州那那這是不是算是消滅我國主權那以及那如果說今天對岸說只要這個壯華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11247.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11254.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個政權這個國家這個宣布台獨他就會武統台灣那今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11255.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11279.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
會不會有人呼應他的敘事我希望他來打我所以我支持台灣獨立那請問這樣子算不算鼓吹這個大陸地區對我國發動戰爭的這樣子的一個意圖我覺得這樣子的樣子有很多的曲解跟會有很多的解釋空間那以及這個文字啊長頭詩算不算你要去這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11282.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11303.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
文治的人民是這樣子你預給他限制他會有越多的一個創意出來那你行政機關就有越多的一個去要有更多的去解釋他到底有沒有違反我們的法義長樓市算不算藝術創作一個圖畫這個你看有危害國家安全主張不同我看沒有這怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11305.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11332.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這個東西恢復於行政機關太大的一個裁量權以及產生後續的糾紛那我認為就只會產生一個結果寒蟬效應而已所以說這樣子的罰票我們認為行政部門沒有辦法讓社會大眾能夠適宜希望能夠多加的討論 以上好 謝謝廖先祥召委接下來請張志文委員張志文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11335.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11354.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
好 謝謝主席我相信這個第四條跟第41條我們很多委員都有非常大的意見因為台灣是亞洲最民主的國家我們絕對捍衛人民的言論自由 網路自由所以我們願意看到像今天的修法什麼叫做鼓吹 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11356.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11381.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那什麼叫做倡議或支持這個法律明確性完全不足第二個今天我覺得內政部在這邊要修這個法其實本席認為真的是這個應該要避嫌內政部自己修一個法要求內政部要越過法務部來先去判法他認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11382.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11399.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這些機關違反規定處最高100萬以下的罰環內政部自己修一個法令要求內政部自己未來就是高於法院審判我就覺得這個有一點點莫名其妙第三個如果人民過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11400.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11417.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
遇到這樣的狀況的時候他可以請律師可以捍衛自己的權利那現在假設行政機關第一個行政機關內政部要如何來裁罰那人民要如何來申訴人民如果申訴的時候跟行政機關的想法不一致的時候人民如何來申訴那事之一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11418.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11432.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
更是誇張 這是一條說只要公開散佈錯誤虛假訊息我知道現在民進黨政府可能很想很想 早就想要針對很多AI的批評政府的網路影片來去做攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11434.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11446.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以我的意思是說我認為政府人民不管是藍綠只要不管誰執政人民都可以做影片來批評政府裡面如果每一個都來審查轉傳你會不會來審查這些民眾所轉傳的影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11451.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11464.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
所以我認為這個法條今天一定要請行政單位特別好好來說明那我剛剛也特別講千萬不要讓內政部戴上這個無限手套無限的行政權以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11466.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11488.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好 剛剛王洪威委員也要發言王洪威委員發言結束後我們請黃婕委員跟內政部再統一做一個說明 謝謝好 就是這個第四條跟第四之一條其實我們是覺得在這次國安法裡面修正其實我認為是最有爭議的其中的一項我先給大家稍微這個回顧一下當時在2022年這個蘇曉慧委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11494.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11512.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
蘇小慧委員的父親當時的蘇貞昌院長時代當時的NCC提出了數位中介法的數位中介法也是針對網路平台就是對於他認為有不當言論或者是有假訊息等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11513.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11535.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
就會有做這個處分當時提出來的數位中介法呢是向法院 就是說如果行政單位認為必須要處理是要向法院去申請資訊的限制令向法院去申請資訊的限制令 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11538.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11554.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
當時還沒有行政擴權到這種地步就是說我今天行政單位認為你的問題我行政單位直接的去給你用處分行政罰款或者第四條之一更嚴重直接進行封網 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11556.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11570.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
當時的數位中介法我想在現場大部分的人都經歷過那時候引起非常大的一個反彈大家認為這是一個就是政府變成數位警總 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11571.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11592.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
就是由政府可以去向法院去申請諮詢限制令而當時的行政院長蘇貞昌蘇院長後來在這樣的一個大家的質疑下那麼當時做了髮夾彎而且後來蔡英文政府也公開對外發表說我們絕對會 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11594.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11609.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
保障人民的言論自由任何箝制言論自由的都不會做所以當時的數位中介法最後沒有實施所以你現在來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11611.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11625.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個我們現在國安法的修正是不是比當時的世衛重刑法更為嚴重我剛才講的一個它的嚴重的狀況就是就是你都不要經過司法單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11626.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11643.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
然後你看我們第四條由內政部會商法務部大陸人會相關機關認定你違法就處十萬元以上一百萬元以下的罰款我就先罰你那大家也都知道其實我們現在有很多的社群平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11644.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11655.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那未來別說大家比較常使用的社群平台Dcard那個PTT或者一些LINE的群組或LINE的討論因為有討論牆 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11659.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11661.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那我待會兒也請我們相關單位來解釋一下這個所謂的罰款它是罰誰罰人還是罰這些社群平台業者這個要很清楚剛才我們次長說個人發表意見 抒發意見 不會罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11680.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11708.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
個人的這個信息傳遞也不會罰今天如果我不想我只傳給張志倫張志倫傳給我沒事對如果我傳到我們的委員群組大家群組裡面我就有事但是這邊的界限我不曉得在哪裡另外我剛才講但是你的條文說任何人人法人還是自然人 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11709.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11710.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
日本人我就覺得酸人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11711.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11740.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
就是我王宏威或者是我對面的梁文傑副主委次長美惠都可以啊所以你又說個人不法我就不懂所以我要講的就是說這個第四條跟第四條之一是行政權的無限的這樣的一個擴充然後剛才呢我們的提出來說我們習近平的提案說明也有講就是說我們其他國家也有啊我聽半天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11741.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11752.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
世界190幾個國家很多民主自由的國家講了幾個國家拉脫羅亞 芬蘭 德國然後呢 沒有然後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11753.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11773.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
所以就是說這並不是一個普遍性質的而且其他國家他針對於鼓吹戰爭有沒有就是說你針對就是要限制鼓吹戰爭的言論他也不是由行政單位他也應該要由法院來認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11775.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11799.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
就是我們每一個人我先不講說什麼樣的言論可以成為所謂的鼓吹戰爭那這個應該由法院認定我們現在又變成我們第四條跟第四條之一全部都是行政單位來認定所以這個部分是我們非常非常大的一個疑慮那你說其他國家比如說像韓國韓國 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11803.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11819.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個對北韓他不是也是非常大的境外勢力嗎前韓國總統尹錫悅甚至搞出來了一個戒嚴那我也沒看到韓國有這些相關的對於數位平台的言論是做這樣的一個前置 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11820.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11839.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那另外以色列一樣啊以色列他是拿他的砲彈去打人家啦但是他也沒有自己對自己人你如果有任何的什麼要鼓吹其他阿拉伯國家來打我們以色列我就要怎麼樣先來對付我們家自己人他是對付外面的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11840.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11860.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
他拿炮彈對付外面的人不是來對付自己人這個不是對付自己人嗎所以我想就第四條的部分我想請問一下所謂的任何人指的是什麼人第二個剛才講就是說你所謂的要罰款你是罰誰是罰這個發表言論的人還是發表那個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11867.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11889.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那麼還有就是說你第三個你所謂的如果你今天的認定對於境外勢力境外敵對勢力包含了大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力發動的什麼戰爭什麼等等他的定義如何我記得我上一次在質詢的時候我就想請問了因為我們在網路上 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11897.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11905.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
別說也有那種唱歌我是不會唱啦他的歌詞就這樣你到底打不打啊請你趕快打啊快點打過來啊這算不算鼓吹戰爭算吧算吧這是大罷免歌曲啊這是閩南郎大罷免歌曲那是不是在我們現在的執政政府不視為他是他是違反相關的這個言論呢又舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11928.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11948.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
沈伯央委員曾經因為他的發展黑熊那時候在中共在軍事演習的時候他有一段錄音被錄出來因為要募集募集資金覺得只要飛彈打過來我募資更容易那算不算呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11949.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11977.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
所以我請我們相關單位能不能把能不能把我剛才所講的幾個的疑點你更很清楚的講給大家聽好不好就更能夠更多做一些說明那全世界國家包含你剛講的拉脫維亞 芬蘭 德國大概就有這三個國家那他們的程序是什麼他們也是授權給行政單位就可以開始做處分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11978.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11996.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好 這個中間也差很多 我剛才講蘇衛中介法當時引起軒然大波 當時還謹守分際喔還要跟法院去申請限制令現在你們連跟法院都不用申請了 法院現在被丟在一邊內政部覺得可以找一些陸委會怎麼樣 我們就開始來罰了而且這個人會被連續處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12002.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12025.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
對不對 會連續罰對不對 一個批評上一個流亡可能很多啊你講我講 講得很開心這樣子啊講完了之後對於業者來說他被罰死了他是被罰死了我不知道那視頻以後大家都能收起來那業者自己就先來做沿路管制對不對 所以業者我很怕被罰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12025.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12044.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我自己就來做言論感知所以以上我希望也請各單位都能夠做一下說明我也希望請這個法院就他們所了解世界各國如果有相關類似的規定請問一下是由行政單位就可以來做處分嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12045.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12072.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好謝謝王宏威委員因為時間的關係我們今天可能只能討論到第四之一這邊那接下來有三位委員還要發言之後我會請行政部門再做一個說明那我們就會保留到下一次再來做討論我先請黃婕委員謝謝好那我會認為說第四條跟四之一條其實已經是相對明確的條文因為其實他的條文是這樣子寫的就是說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12074.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12098.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
任何人以文字影音鼓吹倡議或是支持境內敵對勢力對我國發動戰爭或是說採取非和平手段消滅我國主權那我覺得這樣文字已經算是非常非常的明確了那其實剛剛夏委員有提到說韓國有沒有其實韓國是有的韓國的國家安全法第七條第一項就有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12098.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12117.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
如果明知可能危害國家之生存或是安全或是民主基本秩序讚揚煽動宣傳反政府組織的話就是也會有相對應的刑責所以其實德國、韓國、芬蘭這些國家大家都是在這個符合國際公約底下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12118.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12130.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之這樣子的國際共識之下大家訂定這一種條文那未必需要說這種條文其實就是一種防衛性的民主因為其實國民黨的委員提到說都認為說這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12135.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12163.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
前置永遠自由的一個條文但我必須要說我們想要訂這樣的條文我認為就是為了守護民主自由這樣子他們的目的跟我們想要的目的其實是相反的我們就是為了希望台灣的民主自由可以世世代代的延續下去所以才認為說禁止敵對勢力這個境外勢力的入侵非常的重要我們必須要保衛台灣的這個國家的安全我們才有民主自由嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12163.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12186.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那其實這個條文已經寫得很明確就是它其實是它這種對我國發動戰爭這樣子的說法已經是明確到不能再明確就是明目張膽的恐嚇而且不是恐嚇一個人是恐嚇我們全體的國民然後也迫害到我國國人的生存權所以我認為這樣子的文字在 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12187.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12213.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
整部條文裡面我覺得第四條已經算是相對應該要有共識而且非常明確的那至於說四之一條這個確實之前在上屆有看到有很多相關的討論那我覺得大家可以來考慮的是說因為其實這幾年啊像是美國他們也通過了反外國宣傳跟假訊刑法然後德國其實也最近通過了這個社群網路強制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12213.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12238.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那歐盟當然也有數位服務法英國也有網路安全法就是因為近幾年確實各個民主國家都逐漸發現到說網路自由的很開放沒有錯但是也會有境外勢力透過網路來從事這些危害國家安全的行為所以我覺得可以討論但不要說都不去防範這個應該是我們全體國人要共同面對的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12239.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12263.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
因為其實就算是在國民黨之前也有一些人因為遭受到網路上的這些攻擊然後紛紛表達自己的不平所以我也覺得這個不論是哪一黨或者是哪一個國家的所有的在的政治人物都有可能遭受到說因為這樣子的網路上面的開放的特性然後會 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12263.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12292.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
遭受到危害國家安全這樣的威脅所以我們應該大家都要來共同面對這個問題才對 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員那徐欣雲委員也要發言那高金素梅委員在最後再做第二次發言 謝謝好 謝謝 我簡單的來說我們第四條行政院的提案從網際空間擴大到實體與網路新增了公開鼓吹支持境外勢力 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12293.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12312.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那這個相關的內容本席認為這是高度敏感的條款那很大的一個風險就在於這個其中的用字有關倡議支持具有政治目的之宣傳等等如果沒有嚴格的限縮很容易衝擊言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12313.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12335.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那四之一條呢四之一條這個我也非常認同前面有幾位委員所提到的這個可以說是我們這個國安法這個全案中最需要謹慎審查的條文之一它有很大的風險就來自於行政權過大法院的角色不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12336.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12359.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我們針對4-1條的內容新增的內容我想最大的問題不是要不要反制錯假訊息而是到底是誰來判斷用什麼程序判斷人民如何救濟我們也看到了內政部跟陸委會的一些意見我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12364.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12368.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這個發現如果照我們書面上內政部陸委會的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12370.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12396.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
如果只是由行政機關會商後命令平台移除限制賬號停止解析或限制接取會形成三大重大的風險第一個行政權過度集中內政部同時是認定者命令者也是裁罰者那再來就是平台過度配合平台為了避免處罰他可能過度下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12397.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12410.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
第三個就是人民的救濟不足帳號或是內容被處理後未必有及時有效的救濟所以我們希望這個審查一定要審慎以上是本席的發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12412.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12429.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
好謝謝徐欣穎委員最後請高靜素美委員做第二次發言謝謝好我的第二次發言因為呢現在一定有非常多的國人還有網路的媒體都在看關於這一條第四條跟第四條之一我們看一下原來的條文是 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12430.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12447.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
國家安全之維護應急於中華民國領域內忘記空間及其實體的空間而現在行政院也就是我們內政部自己提的多了像任何人不得以文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12448.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12468.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
图画、声音、言语、影像、电磁记录或他法公开鼓吹、倡议或支持外国、大陆地区、香港、澳门或境外敌对势力对我国发动战争或采取非和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12469.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12491.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
手段消滅我國的主權再來最可怕的是下面那一句經內政部會商法務部大陸委員會及相關機關認定違反前項規定者就可以處心台幣十萬元以上一百元以下的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12492.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12513.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這就是我剛剛一直在強調的我們的行政部門已經逾越了所謂的法律還有我們的法院然後你就可以先認定再來看第四條之一第四條之一更可怕了網際網路的內容有下列各款情形之一者 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12516.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12532.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
內政部經過會商大家聽好是我們的內政部先發動他要會商法務部然後數位發展部大陸委員會以及相關機關後再來是德令 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12533.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12547.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
得命運網際網路的平台提供者網際網路的內容提供者或網際網路應用服務提供者以下合稱網路服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12550.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12562.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
對該內容限制瀏覽移除或被使用者的帳號採取限制或終止他的服務的措施大家來聽聽看第四條第四條之一我們的內政部他的權限多大呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12569.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12592.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
他不僅僅罰你錢他還可以命令他移除或者是對使用帳戶採取限制或終止的服務法院都還沒有判他就可以先做這些行政措施這是怎麼樣的一個擴全的內政部這是怎麼樣擴全的一個行政團隊我真的無法想像所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12593.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12602.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
現在正在觀看的 關心我們行政擴權的這個所有的人民百姓看好第四條跟第四條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12604.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12623.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我們的執政黨就是要在國安法裡面無限制的擴權限制人民的原本自由然後權制人民的思想我覺得是很可怕的一個修法以上認為第四條 第四條之一根本就不應該存在謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12625.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12652.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
好謝謝我們最後我請內政部吳次長來做一個說一個回應謝謝好謝謝主席及各位委員那我想就剛剛幾位委員的部分我來中整做個說明其實在第四條裡面談到的所謂的鼓吹鼓吹它的定義就是所謂對某種行為跟理念的一個宣揚倡議就是說有人先率先發起或領導倡議某種行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12654.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12673.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那在我們國安法裡面的這些行為裡面我們就寫得很清楚了我們是針對行為人有公開鼓吹倡議境外敵對勢力對別人我們不會管只要是境外敵對勢力抱歉我提醒一下你說任何人你看你的文字任何人等一下任何人我會做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12675.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12702.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那對公開鼓吹倡議境外敵對勢力對我國發動戰爭戰爭是一種還有採取非和平那這個的部分其實在第四條其實是很明確的只要你的公開言論是屬於這種類型其實就應該受這條法來做拘束那我剛剛一開始也有談到個人的言論的一個內容或者是對於政策的抒發意見只要不是剛剛講的那些其實那個我們不會去箝制它 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12703.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12714.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那也都會尊重個人的一個言論自由我想還是要先做說明那第二個部分行政法跟司法權的這兩個本來就不一樣我們沒有要去干涉所謂的司法審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12716.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12733.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那這個的部分就是我一開始也有談到在司法院司之的五一期就已經有解釋了顏面自由的一個處罰並不是專屬司法權而且也沒有規定那我們行政機關依照行政法法相關規定當然是可以來做這個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12734.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12750.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那在於行政法法對象剛幾位有談到說任何人是指什麼人只要在法律上你包括自然人有法定人格的法人那這種的部分其實都可以都是所謂廣真的一個的行為人都都是所謂的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12751.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12775.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
自然人那自然人法人還有譬如說他有代表人那只要是有例如說非法人團體的一個代表人或管理人那這些其實都會適用在行政法法的相關規定我想這個部分我還是要跟大家做說明那再來就是這個處罰對象任何人就是我剛剛講的部分那也跟大家報告我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12779.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12791.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
你的處罰是你說自然委員法人如果他是在社群平台上你的處分含不含這些社群平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12792.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12809.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
社群的我剛一開始也有跟大家講你如果是屬於非公開特定人之間一個人一個人對或一個小小的群組的內容不是屬於公開性質的部分那這個部分其實這個並不是在我們這個要做一個處理對象只有限制在你是屬於那種公開群組 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12811.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12827.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
他是open的那他有傳遞訊息然後有違反第四條相關的就是剛講對於敵對勢力應該要講的是這些app打過來打過來你怎麼不打過來那他放在別人放在youtube上那youtube要不要被罰在PTE上如果有這些言論PTE要不要被罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12828.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12845.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
這個是大家關心的 待會我還要請那個速發部來做一下就是這個我們要幫人家問嘛對 這個你罰是 只是罰在那邊唱歌跳舞的人 或者是鼓吹言論的人還是在那個社群平台 那個平台也要被罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12845.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12873.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
好謝謝王宏威委員來那個吳次長我想我還是把他講完了那非常謝謝委員的一個當然有些是可能的狀況情形都有所以其實我們在第四條就有談到了這個部分絕對不是內政部來單一能夠決定的我們會把這個相關的部分會要會商法務部跟陸委會還有例如說像在第四條之一我們還要找訴發部我們會就他的這個研究內容是不是確實有這個內容來做會商之後才決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12874.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12897.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
絕對不是內政部說我高興你要處罰誰就處罰誰絕對不是這樣子啦我聽不懂欸因為我們現在年輕人我舉條沒有我有詢問好不好高精素沒有人就舉手啦你讓他講一下請讓我詢問完一個一個來嘛不是不是主席我不是你要速發不速發不完還沒到高精素沒有人就舉手啦你這樣子會議很難進行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12900.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12924.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
好好好 你如果說要讓高靜雯他舉手發言嘛 你就先讓大家我再舉手好不好 那個主席待會兒讓我把他問清楚他完全沒回答我的問題這很重要啊 他罰誰他都沒有把他講清楚他要罰誰他都沒有把他講清楚這不是很奇怪嗎所以我們到來會商決定要來罰誰這不是很奇怪嗎因為他剛剛講到一半的時候是你在插話所以他沒有辦法繼續講 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12926.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12950.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那我想要請問吳次長你要繼續講完再請高進素美跟王宏威委員好我把任何人跟行政法法的關係再把它講清楚行政法法的對象的行為人就是包括自然人法人或者是只要有具備行政法上可以單獨行使權利義務的這個都是適用所以我行政法法的對象就是針對這些人我想大概就是這樣子好 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12956.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12976.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
沒有,讓我問清楚,因為我們現在的型態很多那比如說我製作一個影片,那不管他是個人或者是一個法人、公司都有可能那我製作這個影片,你們認為這個影片已經違反你這個第四條相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12977.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13002.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
但是他的這個他的平台他可能在YouTube上在其他平台那請問這些平台他是不是也是你處罰的對象是的第四條之一就是包括平台是嗎你直接回答我這問題就好我就很奇怪因為你剛剛一直說你要再會商好這樣我要確定這個事情好不好好謝謝高金書美委員我們最後了好不好謝謝好市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13005.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13022.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我很遺憾在現在這個世代裡面竟然還可以回到冷戰還有麥卡錫主義我真的非常的遺憾我們已經經過了多少的歷史教訓結果我們現在在重回冷戰的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13023.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13049.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
你在文字上面講說任何人不得鼓吹戰爭的文字我覺得這個定義真的太廣了非常的廣 非常的籠統然後再來鼓吹倡議這樣的字眼都是不確定的概念更何況所有的問題不應該是由行政機關你們會商其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13050.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13058.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
人或者是機關來處理應該回歸到法院來把關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13059.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13075.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
所有的政治言論交給行政機關來認定你們是不是把自己的權力放大到無可限量的地步還是要再講一個政治言涉及到政治言論應該是交給法院來審查而不是交給你們行政單位尤其是第四條之一你們要可以先下架先停權先封網 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13087.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13095.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
然後呢在最後認定法院到底是不是這樣可是它所有的行為所有的制裁法都已經被認定了都已經被行為發聲了你們怎麼可以這樣子無限的跨權呢我想你在這裡的辯論真的是非常的蒼白我看你的臉你就沒有辦法去講解你自己第四條跟四條之一的而且你剛剛的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13114.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13136.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
也沒有辦法說服我們廣大的人民大眾我還是要再講台灣現在已經是自由 人認人認自由的國家不是在回報冷戰時期麥卡倫主義然後由你們行政機關任命怎麼樣就怎麼樣你們太擴權了 我不同意 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13138.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13162.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
高精素委員是不希望吳次長再回應我請梁文傑副主委來回應好了回應完我們就先做一個結論 謝謝各位委員好第四條跟第四條之一內容大家可能擁有意見但是我們從陸委會的立場我必須表達一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13163.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13175.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
就是現在的網路上的錯誤訊息和宣傳現在是中共對台最重要的手段那實際上我們台灣的法律制度對這種手段是毫無防備毫無管理工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13177.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13203.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
毫無管理工具那所以我們都在想辦法說怎麼樣在網路上面跟中共的一些作為做一些攻防那大家可以集思廣益那條文的文字都可以在討論那但是我們不能夠完全的沒有任何的手段對於中共的這些網路上的攻勢沒有任何辦法沒有任何管理工具這樣是不行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13204.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13224.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那高清委員剛剛有講到現在是不是冷戰其實冷戰還是兩個超級大國之間實力相當我們現在跟中共是這個實力是非常不對稱所以我們應該要加強自己防衛的手段謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13225.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13241.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
抱歉我還要回應一下梁副主委您剛剛說的這些東西你都是針對中共立委會存在的目的價值是什麼你在這邊的言論你要負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13242.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13258.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我覺得當然現在有各種的方法但是陸委會存在的價值跟意義跟目的不是只有限制在人民的言論自由不是用行政機關無寸的擴權來打壓自己的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13259.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13277.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
一個有智慧有能力的政府應該要想盡各種的方法來解決這個問題而不是讓行政單位來擴權打壓自己的人民百姓謝謝好 謝謝高清委員接下來我做一下決議今天我們針對國安法第二條加入組織以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13278.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13304.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
意圖以及主意都沒有辦法達成共識但是許中信委員這邊其實也做了非常好的一些協調希望下次可以有進度所以第二條我們就做保留第三條我們也做保留沈伯陽委員的堅持第四條對於鼓吹戰爭言論的行政裁罰以及對網路安全的相關的這些規定大家意見也都還很分歧我們都做保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13308.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13320.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
所以剛剛第二條第三條第四條第四條之一都進行保留那另外還沒有討論的條文我們另定期繼續審查今天會議到此結束現在上會謝謝各位謝謝 |