| IVOD_ID |
17389 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17389 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-29T08:34:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-29T13:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:17:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e2f02a5732d1cf8da5bee36096d88136b1d480c4e0b4ea5278b66938f9ad86215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）
審查
一、委員羅廷瑋等43人擬具「空氣污染防制法第二十七條、第二十八條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「空氣污染防制法第三十條條文修正草案」案。
【詢答及處理】
【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:48 - 13:52:00 |
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| transcript.pyannote[2828].end |
19053.79596875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2829].speaker |
SPEAKER_04 |
| transcript.pyannote[2829].start |
19054.25159375 |
| transcript.pyannote[2829].end |
19054.26846875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2830].speaker |
SPEAKER_04 |
| transcript.pyannote[2830].start |
19054.28534375 |
| transcript.pyannote[2830].end |
19054.42034375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
146.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
147.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
不好意思 那我們先休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
453.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
454.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
字幕by索兰娅 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1551.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1576.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
現在開會 請準備報告出席人數報告委員 我會出席委員人數12人 以足法定人數宣告現在由委員提出程序發言會議詢問依據立法院議事規則在委員發言前先宣告發言的時間 能為委員發言時間3分鐘需要發言的委員麻煩到主席台這邊登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1599.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1601.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請登記第一位 請召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1624.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1642.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們在場的委員還有我們的政府部門我認為《空污法》第30條修法涉及全國8000多家的固定污染源從我們的中小企業 鍋爐 餐廳 醫院到大型科技廠而且這8000多家的廠商有半導體 鋼鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1644.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1673.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
石化 纺织 罩纸 水泥等领有固定的污染源的操作许可都会受到很大的影响那许可证的延期制度不是不能检讨但绝对不是仓促的处理我相信这几天大家应该也可以感受到产业当中的一个焦虑因为毕竟影响的范围是这么的大而且也会影响到他们的生计而且规范如果设计不清楚的话最后只会让企业呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1673.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1696.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
疲於奔命不斷準備審查那更大的問題是如果在公務體系的所有的公務人員都在疲於奔命在辦理這相關的事項也會增加也會讓主管機關行政負擔加重那事實上更讓我們擔心的事實上是這樣的一個空牌授權會不會是讓我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1697.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1721.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
很多我喜歡的我去做我不會去查核那我覺得我厭惡的呢我天天去做查核那這樣子似乎事實上是會對於讓地方的權限沒有一個而且如果各地方的標準不一致的話那到底事實上是我們台灣這麼小的一個國家有22套標準所以我主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1722.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1732.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
公聽會必須來辦理喔而不是今天就是馬上就要詢答然後呢就直接事實上就是要來做竹條這似乎事實上是民生非常影響這麼大也對產業影響這麼大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1736.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1763.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
不能夠因為只是我們立法委員感覺自己權限很大的時候沒有聽取民意也不顧及民生所以我認為公聽會要辦理而且充分來聽取產業跟地方政府然後還團跟專家的意見讓修法回到專業跟公共利益而不是在這邊幾個立委自己說了算完全不顧及到民生也不顧及到產業而且台灣很多事實上是中小產業的話那對他們影響這麼巨大的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1765.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1775.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
尤其8000多家 我覺得不容小虛 以上謝謝好 謝謝林院前召委的發言 接下來請第二位黃秀芳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1784.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1807.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝主席那針對這個空氣污染防治法部分條文修正草案那其實這個草案修正完之後上至半導體電子業那下至所有的民生都會受到一些衝擊那尤其我們看到這個醫院的鍋爐然後食品加工廠還有餐廳旅館 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1808.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1833.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
以及畜牧業這個都會因為這個受到限制然後整個營運都會受到影響那尤其是醫院的部分所以我們希望就是說這個有關今天的這個空屋防治法的這個修正草案應該要聽取更多人的一個意見那另外就是說我們看到這個這個草案當中其中就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1834.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1855.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主管機關如果超過兩個月未完成展延審查業者不得操作以及主管機關認為有必要可變更許可證內容等規定那這個就會造成我們地方的公務人員尤其是環保局的這些公務人員疲於奔命那業者也會一直在送審查資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1858.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1884.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
針對這個這個我們的這個草案修正其實對業界來講或者是對醫院對食品加工廠來講真的影響非常的大那我希望就是說所有的委員要這個修這個法真的要聽取更多人的意見那我希望在場的所有的委員大家都是來自基層也是這個所有民眾選出來的我們要修法應該是要修服國立民的法而不是修一個法是來卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1885.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1900.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所有的這個業界的一個發展那另外我也看到就是說工種在這個4月24號也有對外發布這個新聞稿那他有公開表示這個修法未來對於半導體相關產業會帶來不可逆的一個傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1902.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1921.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那我希望就是說台灣今天經濟的一個成長不論是所有的半導體相關的產業或者是所有的這個所有的企業其實跟這個我們今天要修的這個法都有息息相關所以我希望所有的這個立法委員們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1922.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1947.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在要修法之前要多聽所有民眾的聲音聽業界的聲音聽所有專家學者的聲音而不是自己今天看誰不爽然後就要來修這個法所以我們希望所有在場的委員針對這個法我們還要再三思那也希望我們的主席能夠未來我們來辦一個公聽會廣納所有的意見以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1950.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1952.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言 現在請王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1964.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1984.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席還有在場各位委員還有現場的官員大家早今天要修法的部分就包括這個空氣污染防治法第27、28、30條的條文那這些條裡面如果針對現在的固定污染源 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1985.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2011.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個咱要使用排放標準跟許可證照做修正的話事實上它真的會發生非常重大的影響那剛剛兩位委員已經有做充分的報告那我們也了解在這個可能需要影響的這個8000個相關的單位造成的影響裡面其中對於醫院的部分我會是比較擔心因為會受到影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2012.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2028.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
醫院包括有500多家的醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院他的在使用鍋爐的這個固定污染源所造成的影響那大家也許不太清楚這個醫院的鍋爐到底是做什麼使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2030.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2048.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為醫院的鍋爐是醫療機構中極為關鍵的一個基礎的設施他需要全年365天24小時不斷的來間斷的來運行他主要的用途就包括器械的消毒還有熱水的供應還有中央空調 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2051.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2072.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
包括這個冷暖氣機的這些供應還有這個餐房跟餐飲的用途特殊清洗的用途如果在今天修法的內容裡面如果他要兩年裡面就再重新申請一次他要在兩個月裡面就要通過相關的審查哪一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2072.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2092.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
如果醫院相關的這個設施受到影響的話我想對於民眾的健康的維護疾病的治療來講都衝擊非常非常的大所以如果我們針對今天的這些空氣汙染防治法裡面的修正條文有需要的話我相信利用公聽會來邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2094.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2115.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
各個機關還有相關的行業來做相關的這些更多的討論是必須要的現場也包括蘇星泉委員蘇星泉委員自己也有一個非常大的醫院在做運轉對健康的國民的健康都有很大的幫助所以很希望今天這樣的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2115.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2143.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
務必要有各個行業一起共同來討論所以很期待我們的主席可以聽聽大家的聲音來安排公聽會來做更多的討論以上謝謝王振旭委員的發言現在先進入議程然後待會選答後再決定是否那個好 休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2145.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2165.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
等一下 馬上馬上程旭發言嗎 程旭發言嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2405.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2408.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
繼續開會 現在請臨時分委員程旭發言3分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2426.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2450.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
各位我請大家要再正面思考一下這個管制和許可的權利下放到地方政府的這個正面思考以外你還在想為什麼一路走來其實我們做很多環境保護的議題那在地方也看到很多的亂象那首先最大的亂象就是地方民帶黑道跟環保業者這個掛鉤或者是地方民帶黑道 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2456.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2460.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對這個政經的這個開發業者勒索所以很多環境的審查的這個把關的過程當中我們都經常聽到地方有這種聲音也看到很多的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2475.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2495.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那所以很多的環評啊業者在開發的時候飽受地方的黑道勒索那也有很多的環評把持在地方的民代議長議員然後在這樣恐嚇勒索地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2496.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2515.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個都是事實而且比比皆是的事實所以今天我一直在講說從我們這麼多年對於環評或者是說環境保護的很多的個案的關心的這個歷程當中我們就是對於把很多的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2516.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2527.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
下放到地方政府手上有很多的不安全感包括地方政府的預算操控在議長議員的手上而議長和議員對政府的確是有相當大的行政干預權 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2537.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2548.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這都是大家不要修平啦所以我們今天的修法看起來好像都是正面的而且看起來好像應該都沒有問題可是圖法不足以自行你修這樣子不夠的原因是因為執行面執行起來不會是這樣子你何時要過 你的許可量要不要進職你要不要讓他過 一定要說可以過 事情有感覺過 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2565.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2569.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
議長後退 去拉鎖帖沒錢 去跟議長說跟議長打電話的時候這什麼人有要打擾這個時程絕對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2576.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2588.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個握有權力的人所以因為我們看過太多的環評也看過很多的個案真的就是發生過這樣的事情所以一路找了二三十年我們都始終的認為說地方環評的把關來這裡惡勢你要過當地的居民再怎麼反對都沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2600.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2620.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當惡勢力要勒索 不成當市政府要讓他過 再怎麼有正當性 合法 合規 都不能過所以什麼時候可以過 什麼時候不能過什麼時候有許可 不知道排放量 來這裡歐洲經營的排放量大幅放寬如果要作為政治鬥爭的 大幅限縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2622.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2644.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們歷史是說 不要把這種法治和體系拿來當政治鬥爭的手段和工具再來 土法不足以自行啊真的是土法不足以自行 不是法治面這樣定的啊 OK 立法的修法的利益良善可是執行起來 反而是對環境最大的禍害啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2645.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2651.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個是真真正正的我們看到的太多個案都是這樣子請大家三思 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2665.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2694.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
立法院第十一屆第五會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第七次全體委員會議事錄時間115年4月22日9時至14時31分115年4月3日9時至12時58分地點群新樓801會議室出席委員林岳勤等15人列席委員羅志強等24人列席官員4月22日環境部部長彭啟明及各相關主管4月3日衛生福利部部長石崇良及各相關主管主席林昭吉委員岳勤4月22日 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2695.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2708.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄議事錄確定邀請環境部部長國家科學及技術委員會交通部經濟部內政部農業部衛生福利部國家發展委員會就我國氣候變遷調試現況檢討與全球調試目標接軌之推動情形進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2714.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2733.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
本人会议专题报告及讨论事项才综合询答由环境部部长彭启明报告及说明后委员林月琴等18人提出质询军警环境部部长彭启明等各相关主管及其答复委员洪玉祥等3人所提数面质询列入记录刊登公报决定报告及询答完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2734.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2750.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定討論事項一審查中華民國一百一十五年中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案公務及非營業特種基金預算案二 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2751.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2778.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算三審查環境部含送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人115年度預算書案決議說明集訓打完畢二令則其繼續審查4月3日邀請衛生福利部部長債務部法務部就脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2779.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2805.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
衔接机制检讨进行专题报告并备质询本人会议由卫生福利部部长石冲良报告后文林岳勤等18人提出质询均经卫生福利部部长石冲良及各相关主管等及其答复委员刘建国等三人所提书面质询列入纪录刊的公报决定一报告及询答完毕二委员质询未及答复或请补充资料者请相关机关与二总理书面答复委员令要求其宪则从期锁定宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2808.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2836.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處好 議事錄確定本日會議分散下場次上午議程為審查委員羅廷偉等43人凝聚空氣污染防治法第27條 第28條 第30條條文修正草案等兩案接著介紹我們在場委員我們歡迎我們陳勤輝委員陀全吉委員羅廷偉委員李玉琴 趙偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2839.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2861.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
王振旭委員黃秀芳委員蘇清泉委員廖偉祥委員邱惠祿委員王玉明委員環境部部長滕啟明市長黃偉明執密張承恩 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2863.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2873.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
國環院主任呂成陽經濟部次長賴建信副署長陳國軒署長吳志偉專委林華宇台電鄭慶紅中油黃榮譽農業部吳兆陽徐雲榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2893.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2917.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
呂理嘉蒙良署董珍張哲銘交通部專委林金生內政部工程師林玄苗國科院主秘關家銘法務部林黛麗 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2923.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2938.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
現在請提案說明 提案要指梅委員2分鐘 請羅廷武委員說明謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2940.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2966.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
今天審查空氣污染防治法第27條第28條第30條我想先說明2028無煤中火不應該只是一句漂亮的承諾而是全國以致於台中市民中部地區所有的國人對於乾淨空氣健康生活城市的未來共同期待這一份期待必須透過明確的制度來落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2967.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2979.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
過去我國空務法本來就讓地方政府主管機關對於生沒使用許可有審查有把關的角色過去就有這不是我新創的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2984.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3012.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
但民國107年修法後他是修二地方條件許可的條件規範權限從地方移往中央地方依個案附加必要條件的空間被壓縮了也弱化了合法藍莓使用許可證應有的行政裁量權跟行政程序法付款處分的制度精神有所焊隔啊結果就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3013.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3040.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
地方仍有承擔空污壓力跟健康風險卻少了有效管制藍莓污染的一個重要工具剛剛有委員說他的假設是地方有黑道有所謂的地方把持者這些都是他的假設但我要現在直接講的是現在正在發生的是什麼事已經發生的是什麼事林佳龍擔任市長的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3042.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3065.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
他所訂定的生美管制條例我們為之動容我們為之期待結果呢在盧秀燕擔任市長的時候被中央宣布無效大大的打林佳龍一個巴掌本次的修法就是希望權責能夠一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3066.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3084.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
中央一樣可以繼續訂定基本的標準地方也能夠依照在地的空氣品質居民的健康風險環境的承載能力進行更周全的管理這才是真正務實也真正負責任的治理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3085.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3104.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
同時減煤、碳煤這已經不只是空污治理也是淨零轉型的一部分2050最大的目標淨零排放已經成為我國的目標面對國際碳關稅供應鏈整個減碳的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3108.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3126.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
台灣越早降低高碳排能源的依賴產業未來的碳成本出口的壓力就越低推動減煤太煤不只是空氣品質也是提升台灣產業的競爭力我覺得很遺憾看到不管是有特定的政黨特定的人士甚至是行政機關帶頭抹黑 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3138.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3164.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
中部地區所有人的因為空氣汙染用廢發電殘害我們中部人的健康怎麼沒有看到你們幫我發聲我來自台中我不只是針對中火我更是為了所有全國違規展延發電的高雄2025年興達電廠被民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3170.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3190.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
給揭露無照發電我們為的不只是中部地區啊當時高雄那些政治人物在那邊非常震怒而今天我們在還權於地方難道現在還權於地方我們不相信陳其邁了嗎難道陳其邁會被黑道把持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3196.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3222.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
怎麼這個時候還權於地方讓地方有治理有管轄有能夠幫他的所謂的市民爭取健康的權利的時候我們又來質疑陳其邁會被黑道把持空污由地方來承受我們就有權讓地方來把關藍莓污染影響地方地方就必須要有治理的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3223.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3230.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這是讓2028無煤中火能夠真正實現的關鍵一步我始終堅持這理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3231.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3252.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
最後空氣汙染的防治不應該成為中央跟地方之間的角力空氣汙染的防治關乎是每一個國民能不能呼吸到更乾淨空氣的基本權益我們期待的其實很簡單我們打開窗戶我們的民眾能夠多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3253.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3271.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
乾淨的空氣少一點空汙的壓力多一點安心少一點健康的負擔多一點對生活環境的信任我也要懇請我們所有的委員能夠支持今天早上9點20台空盟正在開記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3272.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3296.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
有多少不分藍綠白的人你們跟台空盟一起開記者會一起走上街頭抗議的時候高喊著支持現在不用選舉了現在沒有壓力了開始跟台空盟走向了不同的路徑你們對得起當時你們自己的承諾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3298.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3323.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我今天我也有聽到產業的聲音我也會提出修正動議讓我的提案版本能夠更加的完善兼顧地方的權責更傾聽大家的聲音不需要抹黑不需要刻意的貼標籤我們呼籲大家一起來支持感謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3324.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3329.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
谢谢罗天鹅委员的发言接下来请区会会路委员代表台湾民众党团说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3335.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3356.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
主席 各位委員同仁 各位政府部門同仁 大家好那我想 《空污法》第一條開宗明義規定它的立法意旨其實就是為了維護生活的環境還有促進國人的健康 促進我們的生活品質所以我們台灣民眾黨提出《空污法》第30條就是往這樣的立法意旨去邁進 去落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3359.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3377.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那空污法總共目前現行法有四項那我們針對第一項第三項還有第四項我們都有進行一些修正那關於第一項呢就是固定污染源他如果操作許可期限戒制那當然這時候公司場所他就能夠申請展延 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3377.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3399.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那展延主管機關他允許展延的期限以現行法來說是三到五年那我們把這個三年下修成兩年下修成兩年的目的跟意義是為了加強空污的監督空污排放的監督那至於第三項我們也進行修正第三項的現行法是污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3400.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3427.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
固定污染源他的操作許可如果到期之後業者其實是在法定期間之內其實他可以提出展延那法定期間就是三到六個月那如果業者在法定期間內提出展延儲管機關你沒有在操作許可證的期限界之前完全審查那麼這個就是來自於行政機關的問題所以在這個情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3428.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3453.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
業者呢他對於固定污染源的操作呢他的操作期限呢就是從許可證之日起一直到行政審查完成這段時間都可以讓固定污染源繼續操作但是大家有沒有覺得這樣的修法很欠缺邏輯欠缺科學邏輯就是固定污染源的操作他是取決於行政機關的審查行政機關如果審查越久固定污染源他可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3453.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3474.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
操作的時間就越久那這樣的一個結果非常的荒謬我們試想一個比較極端的一個結果如果今天行政機關拖拉審查故意放水大開方便之門那請問一下人民的肺 人民的健康誰來把關那其實這一條法律聽起來不合理但是是2018年6月25號 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3476.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3484.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
民主進步黨所修過的一個霸王條款那剛各位先進有提到新達電廠34號集組其實就是透過這個霸王條款從2024年的9月30號一直持續的斷續的運作到 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3492.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3502.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
隔年2025年的5月23號那這樣的一個霸王條款其實真的是殘害我們的肺殘害我們的健康勝據所以我們台灣民眾黨就在這邊要提出一個修法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3507.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3524.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
動議修法的方案就是說如果固定的這個污染源他超過許可日期他超過許可日期那如果你申請展延在這種情況之下如果是行政機關還沒有審查完均那在這個情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3524.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3538.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你以操作許可日為基準你至多只能夠再操作兩個月那我們這樣提出一個修法的一個意旨呢其實就是避免行政機關故意拖拉上下其手配合放水那其目的就是為了保障我們國人的健康那更何況 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3542.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3569.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個興達電廠它在持續的違法操作這段期間還持續的燃眉釋放各種空屋讓我們高雄居民來承受那除此之外我們也針對第四項來進行修法就是當提出這種展延申請的時候主管機關對於允許可證是有一個變更的權利但是這個變更並不是無地方使胡亂的變更是以有條件的為前提而條件就是如果你所排放的空屋呢有進一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3569.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3594.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
去影響到人民的健康治癒那這個情況之下就應該允許地方的主管機關能夠變更允許可證的內容那我想台灣民眾黨提出30條的修正做的一切都是為了落實空污法開宗明義第一條的立法意旨就是維持環境的維持生活的環境還有促進國民的健康以上說明謝謝謝謝邱惠若你的發言接下來請環境部部長斌恩說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3606.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3630.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席各位委員還有各位相關部會的首長那由環境部來做一個這次謝謝委員提出兩個議案的說明喔那我個人本身是一個高度敏感的體質的患者所以對空汙是相當敏感所以任何可以改善空汙的事都是我非常重視的也非常積極願意爭取的但是呢其實整個空氣汙染的這個防治呢下一...欸幫我下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3631.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3654.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
空氣污染的其實來源是一個很複雜的問題我用這張圖這是我親自做的大概有三個型態必須了解第一個排放源有點線面點就是今天要這次要修法的一個點源點源就是說例如說有一個火力發電廠磁化廠煉鋼廠等等但是這次的這個還不止還有這些也包括了所有的鍋爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3655.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3676.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
包含我們大家熟知的旅館餐廳或是醫院等等的鍋爐也蠻多的但是我們的生活形態呢也有很多的一個麵源包含了各種營建工地夜市餐廳等等露天燃燒等等所以我們造成空汙也真的是一個混合的一個作用那當然啦這個當大氣從地面或是從空中開始到整個環境裡面的時候他會開始傳輸經由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3679.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3701.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
加上一些氣象的因素就會開始累積等等甚至呢還有跨域的這個傳送才會到我們呼吸的空氣所以我們呼吸到每一口氣絕對是一個很複雜的一個過程需要有更深度的一個了解那本人在兩年前上任之後就發現到這樣的一個問題絕對不是只有一個來源會造成空氣污染或造成個人健康的體質 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3701.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3716.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以我們環境部已經啟動跟衛福部共同的合作把各種的身體的健康可能是因為空污造成的到底誰的來源多或少能夠把它找得更清楚所以這個是我們最主要的目標絕對不是只有一個來源而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3716.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3741.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們過去這個空屋經過本身的制度已經有顯著的改善改善相較108年大概21%已經到了12.8%不過我也坦承這個要往下走其實是一個很大的挑戰我們生活上面各方面的轉型都是必須的那我以這個前面一頁為什麼沒有了我的簡報沒有了沒有看到前面一頁下一頁怎麼沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3746.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3772.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我以這一頁來給大家看我們如果從我剛剛講的是PM2.5的這個排放那個溶度的一個降低還有各種點線面圓的這個變化的一個趨勢可以看得很清楚其實我們點線面三種圓裡面我們的這個面圓已經高出點圓非常的多面圓就包含我們所有的生活型態造成很大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3773.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3780.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這是指的是排放元那點的部分我們過去這麼多年已經顯著的在降低當中趕快把這個投影出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3782.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3803.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
請趕快把他投影出來然後降低的非常的多那當然啦我們未來呢依照現在的這個趨勢來看的話也會持續的在降低所以目前來看的話我們目前這個這樣的一個如果我們來推動的話應該是點線面共同一起來推動才有辦法共同的來做一個減量齁欸這張圖剛剛跳出來一下又不見 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3816.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3816.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3834.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3843.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我這張圖給大家再看一次我再做一個說明如果我們用最新的TAZ-13全國的排放量從過去102年的45900多噸已經降到27562公噸大概減少了40%左右那這個裡面也包含了點元、現顏、面元這個裡面降低最多的就是我們所謂的點元 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3858.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3883.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就是今天我們想要列管的一個單位主要的排放量那其他的話其實我們可以看得出來我們國人的生活形態的改變我們的面員也越來越多我們的縣員就是交通員也必須要去做一個考量但是我說這個是從排放員本身來去做考量的事實上整個空屋的治理還要把這些的員進到整個大氣模式做一個模擬才會得到一個結果那本部呢已經跟這個衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3884.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3902.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那也跟一些醫生的團隊已經在進行相關的研究我們希望在半年到一年內有一個顯著的結果才可以讓各位我們可以更有效的得到一個空污的治理的一個工作所以這個點線面我們的一起減量一起治理這是非常重要的一個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3904.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3906.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
為什麼都一直不穩定?我們訓導完就來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3932.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3944.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
要不要先表決還是你覺得要先宣導先讓大家講一講大概中午前吧只有十幾位只有十幾位我們今天我如果到了時間我就站起來站起來也沒有危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3981.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3989.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好 那我進行下一頁喔那這次呢 各位關心的就是許可證的使用的問題 回去上一頁喔許可證喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3993.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4009.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們目前整個全國大概有8000多家的廠商大概受到政府核發大概有13000多張的操作許可證這個裡面就包含了我說的電力業、光電業、石化業、水泥業、鋼鐵業還有各行業的大小鍋爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4010.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4035.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個當中裡面呢最多的就是鍋爐大概佔了58.29那其他的行業的製程大概是將近20能源跟重工業呢大概都是低於10電力業只有0.77%那每年呢大概有5000件的審查次數其中展延是1950件那為什麼說這次的修改恐怕會造成我們地方環保單位很大的壓力因為一個審查是需要去現勘的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4037.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4060.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我們地方環保單位對於這樣的一個大量有的縣市可以有幾千件那他們基本上只有少數的人力來做這個工作所以很多的情況都會受到很大的審查不完所以因此呢讓許可證開始展延的一個工作那如果按照委員的提案的話將會讓我們公務員的壓力會非常的大除非是說我們有一個更好的公聽會來討論讓我們地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4063.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4087.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
政府能夠投入更多環保的資源在這個上面擴充倍數以上的人力才有辦法那另外一個呢是如果委員要提案把說有健康風險之餘那這件事情呢這個是需要專業來評估的不是針對某一家公司就可以做怎麼樣的工作我回到前一頁所以基本上呢如果我們要做這些工作我建議大院能夠再多一個溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4088.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4114.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們環境部也願意跟地方一起來做一個討論而不是倉促的一個通過那第二項呢下一頁我們固定原污染源的許可的規範呢目前本部我們台灣過去從107年修改107年有問題就是當年非常的亂地方政府審核的許可制度有出現了很多的弊端當時才修改成這樣的一個制度如果再修回去的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4114.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4142.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
恐怕會過去的這個經驗我們可以再搬上來讓大家可以理解可能會非常的嚴重目前呢我們我國的規定跟美國大概五年的許可證歐盟大概八到十二年許可證我們是三到五年我們相對於這個國際來說的話都是嚴格很多那如果呢這個效期變成是兩年的話基本上任何一個廠商因為每個三到六個月之前就要再提出申請恐怕這個會造成我們的所有業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4143.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4165.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
甚至我們的政府單位每天都在做一個審核的工作所以基本上這個壓力會非常的大同時如果說在這個時間內因為政府單位無法審核完成這個是常常有的事情這個責任是政府單位可是要讓業界能夠來背負這樣的責任其實在目前的信賴保護原則或是說行政續行的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4166.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4193.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個目前美國或是歐盟都有相關一定的規範本部的目前的這個法規都是參照歐盟跟日本的法規進行在走的所以我們也特別提醒委員如果要修正的話務必要考慮到實際的情形不能夠倉促的來立法否則就會造成這個全國各種產業有很大的影響當然本部有任何能夠讓環氣空氣污染能夠更好的方式我們都非常的一個支持贊成下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4194.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4214.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那目前空污法固定污染源的管制從空污法的授權由環境部來主管空氣污染防治的方案到我們來督導地方來擬定空氣污染的防治計畫目前其實都有一個完整的程序例如說從污染的預防到原物料製成的設備空氣污染物的收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4214.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4229.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
污染物防治設備的防治或是末端的排放標準還有一個連續自動的監測與檢測空氣污染物的排放的申報目前的這個就是本部大氣師跟很多的地方單位共同在做的工作這個工作不是一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4230.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4255.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
書面作業就可以完成都是必須去現刊全國有1300多個許可證而且有等於是超過很多的一個工廠那個量非常的大所以也建議委員會如果要進行修正的話恐怕還是要能夠符合實情能夠多問一下地方單位或是實際操作者的意見否則的話這個會讓我們的所有的製程會造成很大的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4256.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4269.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
當然現在我們有一些制度例如說用Bubble的制度有一些讓廠商可以自主減量的優惠跟鼓勵的方案都是可以繼續往下走的所以目前我們的結論也給大院建議第一個27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4271.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4290.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
提供公司場所污染改善之彈性的機制有維持的必要但是28條的混燒的比例相對的這個是屬於能源領域的範疇那最後一個許可證的展言操作我們建議還是要跟國際的做法一致而且可以具有行政可行跟公平合理性所以目前根據我們過去這107年修正完的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4293.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4313.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
本部到目前中央跟地方一起公私協力整個空屋的減量已經有顯著有成效但是未來如果我們要往下走也面臨到很大的挑戰那這個呢除了點元之外縣元、縣元都必須要一起做這是一個我們國家整個生活型態還有民眾意識很大的改變本部呢會持續的跟我們的專家、專業的醫生 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4315.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4339.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
或是說衛福部共同來把空氣品質跟健康的關係找到有一個更好的結果我們對症下藥我們希望能夠讓我們的空氣品質可以更好本部在去年就已經擬定了空品的一個白皮書2030年我們PM2.5希望全國平均可以到102035年可以到8這個都是我們目前往這條路在走的一個路所以也提醒委員如果要做一些修正的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4340.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4366.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
一定要谨慎可以避免说像之前光电三法也想要跟我们要讨论我们也定了我们也投入了研究计划结果很快的就过也造成了目前所有的光电业在投资设备的时候很大的冲击他们等于是无所适从所以这个部分呢也请各位大院的委员能够多一些考虑谢谢好谢谢彭部长接下来请经济部赖次长说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4374.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4391.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
主席 諸位委員 在場各位 大家早安 大家好今天貴永和會安排審查大院羅廷偉委員等43人與民眾黨團所凝聚的空污法修正案請代表經濟部向委員會提出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4392.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4421.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
如剛剛環境部長所說其實供氣品質攸關了國民的這個健康都是為社會大眾所關心的一個事項剛剛部長也說明了在過去的將近10年我們無論是在PM2.5的一個改善上面獲得相當大的成果那依照經濟部依照行政院核定的空氣污染防治方案各所屬機關也積極的執行空氣污染防治的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4422.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4437.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
統計自110年到114年為止累計共減少了七萬七千八百一十三公噸的空污的排放而今天諸位委員所說的這個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4440.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4461.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
有提案版本提到規定的展延期間操作許可期滿只要地方政府兩個月未完成審查則不得操作而需要直接停工如此不但增加產業營運的成本及不確定性而且可能造成全國供電的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4463.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4482.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因此全國工業總會跟工業區廠商聯合會都已經分別的拜訪大院的委員甚至發表公開的聲明強烈的呼籲維持現行的管理機制依照經濟部的評估若是冒冷的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4483.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4507.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
不但是會影響投資的可預期性對於能源跟產業營運的穩定性也將造成莫大的衝擊其衝擊主要分為五個部分第一個許可證未完成審查及時效讓產業面臨停工的風險全國約有8000多家中大型的廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4508.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4536.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那無論是高科技廠商或是攸關民生的食品加工廠以及剛剛程序委員諸位委員所提到的醫院的這個部分都會受到影響若僅因地方的審查程序較長而靜置轉為強制停工將造成大規模的上下游的供應鏈跟經濟的損失若強制停工也可以造成不可逆的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4537.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4559.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
第二點 下縮許可證的效期縮短了三級防護區展延的期限衝擊了經濟的發展我們預估因為許可證的有效期大幅縮短除了增加實際稽查人員的負荷之外所有的廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4561.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4575.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
剛完成審查展演就要提出下一次的展演甚至所有的廠商疲於疏見的審查增加了所有的負擔第三 地方政府可片面要求業者減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4576.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4600.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
造成中央跟地方管制規定不一其中還刪除了鼓勵業者主動申請新舊製程的同步改善的友善的機制而如此一來不但無端的增加營運的風險而且一身中央跟地方管制標準不一的狀況第五點而 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4603.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4632.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
可片面的公告禁止電廠使用燃料將可能衝擊到全國的這個用電依照現行的空污法28條他的立法精神是管制業者針對於使用生煤或相關的燃料的混燒的比例並非用來全面禁止或是限制使用量而如此的一個修正案若是通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4634.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4653.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
各行各業的工廠鍋爐業者將可因燃料的超進而無法營運在這邊跟諸葛委員報告所有的8000多家業者包括醫院還有其他的食品加工肉品加工的工廠其實他的製程他的安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4653.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4672.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
它工廠的安置其實都有定規如果是突然的禁止使用它原來可以許可使用的燃料的部分將衝擊到產業的營運還有包括能源的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4673.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4694.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
最後一點在法律的不確定性下將會影響企業投資的可預期性這個條文裡面有一些不確定性的法律概念比如說認定有削減或是加嚴操作之必要者比如說有礙健康風險之餘等等的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4695.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4714.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
都有可能因為規範的條文模糊空白的授權反而更延伸執行的不確定性跟重複管制的疑慮經濟部絕對會在我們國家的法令合乎國際的標準之下持續去做好減排的一個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4716.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4732.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
最後感謝各位提供這個機會讓經濟部做說明但是本案涉及到電力、半導體、鋼鐵、石化、紡織、罩紙、水泥甚至還有包括醫院、食品加工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4733.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4761.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
無論是高科技的產業或是攸關民生的產業都因為這個修正案而受到巨大的衝擊所以僅此期待為了避免對企業的營運跟能源的韌性造成重大的衝擊我們建議應該審慎為之維持現行的管制制度以上報告敬請各位委員指教並祝各位身體健康萬事如意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4762.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4789.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
謝謝賴建信市長現在開始詢問有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報本會委員質詢時間6加2分鐘 列席為4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果書面質詢 請散會請提出 預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位委員 您願請召委進行詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4799.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4802.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
謝謝主席有請我們的環境部部長有請彭部長部長早今天談空污法的修法我認為必須先回到法律本身的目的在第一條的開宗明義就講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4818.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4846.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們為防止空氣污染維護生活環境跟國民健康來提高我們的生活品質才定這個辦法所以今天討論制度不是只看我們的權限怎麼分配而是要問的是民眾的健康有沒有被保護民眾的生活感受有沒有變好所以想問部長可不可以直接說明現行的空污法的執行框架下近年全國的總體的空污控制的數據到底是變好還是變壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4847.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4867.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
哪些改善是來自於空污法的規範事項哪些又是我們的污染管制措施真正發揮的效果報告委員從107年這個過去的這個執行就像這次要修成以前的那個當地方有大量的權力的時之前我們107年修後之後其實PM2.5平均濃度從過去的這個16.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4870.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4885.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
降到12.8所以這是全台灣的一個平均所以顯著的大概減了兩成左右這個成績是算是不錯而且特別是空污的排放量大概整體減了大概超過四成以上所以基本上現在的法規是有效的而且具體可行的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4886.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4906.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
不過我要提醒就是說民眾不是只看全國平均啦尤其是重點固定污染源的周邊的居民他們更在意的是政府真的有沒有好好的保護到他們所以請部長說明一下環境部目前掌握的近年的數據重點固定污染源的周邊的空瓶是不是有改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4906.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4918.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
而且特別是主要火力電廠跟大型工廠這些潛在重大污染源他們的空污的排放的情形今年是改善還是惡化如同我之前一直很關心工業區的周邊學校的議題一樣對 謝謝委員因為委員其實過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4922.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4951.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
很關心這個工業區附近的弱勢特別是中小學所以在這個去年我們就開始啟動了針對這種弱勢地區全台灣大概22個地方例如說中部也有高雄也有高雄是目前最多的目前整個我們特別針對那個學校附近來進行一些監測防護的工作把他的源頭找到甚至我們也主動跟那個工業區說我們會進去查所以目前的這個程序都在進行當中那我相信這樣的方式有助於改善附近周遭附近的這個弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4952.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4977.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那另外一個是我們的工業區的整個排放來說的話不管是立裝物或是Nexus其實過去的都顯著的一個下降當然我必須說也有進步的空間但是這個下降的速度空污減排甚至這個空氣品質濃度的數字都有顯著的降低部長我認為新型制度必須往更精準更透明更能被檢驗來前進台灣很小任何在產地 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4979.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4996.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
任何在地的那个产生的空气污染都可能扩散到邻近的县市所以空污的治理不能只靠地方各自努力也必须中央一致可信可检验的制度现行环境部呢对大型的固定污染源的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4996.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5015.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
管道排放的自動監測設施也就是SIMS去年爭議的很大的數據擷取的處理系統DHS要怎麼防止人為操作錯誤的註記數據的修改或把異常的數據排除掉最近公告的固定污染源空氣污染物的連續自動監測設施的管理辦法會 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5019.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5034.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
導入中央的審驗機制部長這已經是設的場所是否都能夠在116年的1月1日取得合格證明目前進度在哪裡然後幾家的火力發電廠都已經完成了我們請我們市長來詳細的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5034.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5063.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
向委員報告這個法在上一次在大便的時候大便委員特別關切所以我們重新做修法的預告我們在今年的2月24號將這個辦法做修法預告也就誠如剛才委員所說的我們改為由中央來審查這個數據擷取系統這個所謂的DAS系統那我目前明定的是116年之前要完成但是目前我們正在籌組召開研商會議那研商的部分我們會再讓各界來表達意見看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5064.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5075.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是不是有需要做調整的空間那這法通過以後就將來就是由中央來負責審查各個目前將近連線大概有500處的這個所謂的相關的自動連續監測系統的資訊系統然後我們希望藉由這樣的把關能夠確保相關的數據能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5083.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5099.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
公正而且能夠精準那此外呢這相關的數據在目前沒有還沒有修法完成之前其實我們相關自動連續監測系統其實在我們本部的網頁或者是大家手邊有的我們環境即時通的APP裡面其實都有提供這個數據讓民眾理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5100.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5118.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
再來中央要承認SIMS體檢的專家小組過去大家也質疑說地方食物的查核標準不一致請問這個專家小組要怎麼確保獨立專業還有功能達標操作透明若業者不合格後提出申複的話那程序怎麼走 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5119.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5141.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對 謝謝委員 這個其實過去也是大約我的委員有提出這樣的問題那我們其實也做了一個檢討所以現在的確是有一個小組 體檢小組有針對有些有問題的去查核過那未來呢 這個是由我們中央全部由我們來執行而且會有一個專家委員會來負責督導來看這個事情那這個數據也當然都全部公開也是開放資料讓大家可以下載的出來對 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5142.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5167.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
部長 我從去年就一直強調 政府網站公開數據不是公開就好啦 而是要讓民看得懂請問部長 這些SIMS的監測數值一般文科大學生可以直接看得懂嗎如果連關心環境的民眾都看不懂了透明就只是停留在形式上所以中央規範是不是應該建立一套更友善的公開機制讓民眾能理解 也能夠共同參與 也可能共同來監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5168.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5196.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
目前這個其實針對一些敏感性的學校我們有一些工業區旁邊的我們都有一些做法了那委員提出的做法很好因為其實現在我們是開放放在那個地方或是手機可以看對可是大家看不懂看不懂但是我例如說我現在其實也會嘗試用AI的工具直接爬下來直接自己畫我們會盡量把這樣的一個程序看能不能有一個機制能夠讓大家可以更直接親近這個數據甚至來監督我們有沒有做得好不好我們可以來做這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5197.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5213.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好不好意思那個招委因為沒有訊號好這個我們會來推動因為我自己也是從這個數據去撈下來自己去做分析比較那因為現在的很多的AI工具都非常的方便可以時間暫停嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5231.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5246.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
要拿綠色乖乖嗎要先暫停嗎對啊他說請資訊委員來那請先休息一下那我們先休息等那個對時間暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5255.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5263.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以在中大的時候開始不會像平常的時候開始能夠在操作的方式發揮出新的手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5268.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5274.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為在那個傳訊網路上面都有數字啊 就是知道了才會點而且那個相較於空瓶之選 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5293.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5309.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
不過因為現在這個工作也在我們家我們再跟智克斯來考慮這個環境系統可以要跟智克斯去考慮可是不是就我們物理系統啊可能要有一個網頁啊網頁一樣Friendly我們也要處理我們有網頁然後也有我們的網頁網頁請同學比較好看比較不好看 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5348.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5370.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5381.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5381.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好,來 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5410.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5419.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
非常非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5429.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5455.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
被查完以後他就遇到不大事 最少的檢查檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 檢查過後 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5497.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5513.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5529.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5549.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5551.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5551.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
對呀對 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5579.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5604.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
來來來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5611.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5630.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
可以嗎 可以了嗎OK了嗎好 繼續選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5651.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5654.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那個主席麻煩我們的台電副總 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5666.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5675.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
副總 外界談火力電廠常常會變成一句話藍媒等於空污那台電今年提出來一組數據說藍媒電廠空污排放量從2016年到2025年減幅達77% |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5682.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5697.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
台中電廠在2018年到2025年的空瓶不良期間也執行了超過3600次的那個降載的一個排碳台電可不可以說是我們的煙囪排放的濃度合規 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5699.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5716.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
居民真正關心的事實上是長期暴露在風險區域的累積的污染備用機組的啟動時段以及空品不良日有沒有及時降災所以想問台電說空品不良日台電到底怎麼決定哪些機組要降災 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5717.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5737.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是 跟委員報告台電會依照環境部所公布的空氣品質預報的情況如果在空氣品質指標AQI大於100的情況下我們就會進行機組降載的評估一定會優先確保系統供電安全然後在這個預報可能會AQI超過100的地區的上峰處去做燃煤跟燃油機組的降載 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5739.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5766.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那台電在空氣品質保護的說明裡面也提到說空瓶的那個監測站事實上是依據環評報告中的一個空污擴散模擬的結果設在最大增量或者是環境敏感地區而且特別說明這事實上是跟環保署的設站不同我先提醒一下台電現在已經是環境部了台電的空瓶議題呢備受關注連網站文字都不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5768.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5787.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
沒有去更新 更新得這麼滿這個網站到底多久更新一次啊是 這個文字上的部分我們可能我們回去再檢討修正但是所有的這些數據都是即時的數據對 可是更重要的是一般民眾看到這段文字的話根本不一定看得懂所以我問台電說所謂環境部不同到底是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5792.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5815.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
特別說這個環保署不同我們講說那到底是什麼意思因為我們依照環評審查的結論可能會因為環評委員的要求會增加一些策站但是環境部這個也會有一些策站那所以我們如果這個策站是跟環境部目前的策站不同我們就會特別指明所以大概會有兩種可能的這個策站的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5816.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5840.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那環境敏感地區又是指什麼是住宅學校醫院入口密集聚落還是自然保護區是什麼對空瓶的這個特別有敏感的地方大概是這樣子的那是住宅嗎還是學校還是是醫院還是人口那個比較密集的聚落好這個部分我這個比較細節的部分我請環保處長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5842.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5857.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
謝謝委員 基本上是這樣子其實委員剛剛垂詢的是我們在環評之後我們會在我們一些所謂的環境比較敏感的地方去佈設所謂的空品策站那換言之就是說我們在我們做環境影響評估的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5858.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5882.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們會特別去了解我們的這些固定污染源 特別是我們的電廠我們空污排放之後 我們這些空污它的擴散的模擬的結果那我們怎麼樣去布點才會真正收集到最有效的數據這個地方就是剛剛委員所關心的這個所謂的敏感的地方那你現在台電現在設定的一個側站位置是否可以理解成能夠反映周遭民眾可能受到的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5882.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5897.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
可以這樣解釋嗎就是台電的策戰再加上這個環境部的策戰那整體來講的話會反映當地地區的一些空氣品質變化的情況確實是這個樣子好那我還是要跟一樣問問彭部長的問題一樣的就這些資料未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5899.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5918.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
還是一樣台電 我覺得未來可不可以用人民看得懂的方式公開 而不是放工程格式表格 我要問的是台電那中部的民眾高度關注中火的那個空污的排放對空氣品質的影響 台電是否有整合性的資訊平台然後揭露中火主 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5919.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5936.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那個中國機組的那個運轉排放狀況及周邊的空瓶的那個檢測的那個測站的數據是讓想了解的民眾跟關係人都能夠快速去理解是那各位報告這個有關資料呈現的這個清明性的部分我們回去再檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5937.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5954.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那至於這個有關台中電廠有關他的污染排放量排放的濃度以及附近空瓶車站的一個結果跟他用沒量台電確實在台電的網站上有一個專門的網頁有把這三個資訊整合在一起好我最後要去問的是從民眾的健康角度來看的話台灣不能只 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5955.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5982.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
說空瓶不良日有降載我要請問台電是今年各火力發電廠在正常的運作期間那個SIMS的監測到的流氧化物 氮氧化物跟我們的粒狀污染物排放的濃度與排放總量以及周邊空瓶監測的那個PM2.5 PM10NO2跟SO2的數據是否呈現穩定改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5984.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6006.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
各位委員報告因為策戰裡面所測得到的空污的這個結果不會只有因為電廠的這個影響所以說台電公司不會只有在這個空氣不良日的時候才減少發電所以燃煤部分以中火為例過去到現在為止過去10年已經減煤了4成以上空污已經減了8成所以說這最後的一個結果都是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6007.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6025.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
就是不在空瓶屋的時候我們還是盡量減煤所以去年已經減到1100萬噸以下了我們還會持續的進行減煤那台天能不能用逐年逐廠逐污染物的資料證明民眾實際瀑布的風險確實下降可以提供數據在你的網站上來讓大家能夠去理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6026.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6043.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好台電的部分的空污的減量我們在網站上有有有出來但相關的一些是不是能呈現的更加的跟外界理解對要讓外界理解好來謝謝台電請回部長前面我們就談有談到從總量的空污到個別污染源 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6043.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6069.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
現在都有監測可是我接下來要問的是這次修法能不能真的讓空氣能夠更改善能不能讓法規更落實所以部長現行空污法是不是已經讓地方加嚴管理例如第20條就明定因地方特殊的需要可以擬定個別的價延的一個排放標準既然現行法都已經有地方加嚴的制度了那請問如果讓中央把關的那個意義在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6070.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6096.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
其實我們是一個協助的一個角色那地方有時候他定的會特別嚴格例如說地方有時候他會一個空氣污染防治區或是說把一個地方設下來我們都是鼓勵歡迎的所以基本上現在的制度就已經有讓地方有一點權力但是如果放得太寬就例如說有健康風景之魚這件事情加進去的話今天地方要整任何一個公司都有可能透過這個工具這個是霸王條款這是一個很危險的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6097.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6110.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以現行制度到底有沒有成功案例同樣的當時台中申請生媒自治條例被中央拒絕當時認為部分條文抵觸了公務法及執法請問理由是什麼中央標準是否一致要不要我們請我們市長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6111.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6129.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
因為當時的理由認為這樣空污防治應該有全國一致性所以基於這樣然後地方的這個知識條例跟因為空法已經有相關的規定所以他這個法律優惠原則他等於衝擊到我們空法的運作所以我們認為這個有抵觸到空法好 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6130.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6146.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我要特別強調空置裡不是只看燃煤的名稱同樣是燃煤燃氣燃油不同設備防制的技術排放的高度擴散的條件操作的方式對民眾實際暴露的影響都不一樣所以我要請問環境部健康管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6147.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6169.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
是不是應該要回到排放標準來源解析跟風險 曝露風險而不是直接用藍莓種類然後一刀切來做處理對 報告委員我們現在就是往這個方向在走例如說我們會主動已經主動的跟一些公衛的專家甚至我們用健保資料庫跟衛福部一起來合作把這個完全的來源解析跟它曝露的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6170.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6186.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對真實這個有可能會致病風險的一樣我們要把這個完全找清楚不是一句話用什麼可以發電這樣的一個來形容所以我們正在處理這個事但是這個事情需要一個社會溝通有更多的資料也要一點時間這個過去比較少做但是我們現在很積極在做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6187.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6205.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
部長我支持地方政府積極參與那個管理污染源地方在第一線當然要有工具處理民眾感受到的污染問題可是現在第27條的這個修正是把現行的公司場所得向地方主管機關申請改善排放總量及濃度 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6207.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6221.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
改成地方政府可以要求公司場所改善業者也必須配合申請那就有一個關鍵的問題如果業者已經符合法規也符合排放標準地方政府仍然可以要求改善那適用的要件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6222.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6251.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個就是107年這個地方有很大的權力造成的一些問題所以我們是希望說現在的制度已經可以辦法管理這些問題了如果回去以前的話我不知道後面的衝擊效益評估到底是什麼這也是我擔心的如果沒有一個很好的判斷標準然後技術上不可行的時候又要怎麼處理如果沒有這些講清楚會不會讓地方政府用很空泛的理由要求減量最後反而造成法律的不明確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6251.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6266.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
然後對產業影響很大我覺得我更擔心的事實上是影響到民生所以這是我非常不樂見的以上今天我質詢到這邊 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林玉琴照顧的發言現在請陳金輝委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6274.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6281.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有謝謝各位官員的出席今天早上比較混亂一點 我們請環境部部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6285.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6304.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
陳委員好部長好今天我們看了一下您的報告您其實第一段是在講說對於很多委員或者是黨團提出來的關切公務治理維護國人健康的熱忱修法初衷表達肯定還有感謝雖然你是寫肯定啦肯定你針對第27條第28條 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6306.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6328.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
都是說維持現行的條文那剛剛也有聽到您的報告您的報告是講到說這個整體2021年到2025年已經PM2.5由16.2降到12.8這個是平均是 全國平均但中南部由19.6降到14.8那其實你們環境部的標準是12 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6331.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6348.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那你這樣子就滿意了嗎因為為什麼今天有這個很多中南部的委員會來關心是因為這個就是你們環境部放給全國人民看的圖啊全國空氣品質的指標你看最嚴重的地方都是從中部到南部啊那其實你們也還沒達到你們自己的標準12啊那還有很大的一個進步空間嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6358.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6376.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
當然我們有進步的空間所以我們現在就是在想這些重災戶我們有什麼方法一起來解決所以當然我們期待您的報告也有一些您的想法但是您的想法裡面並沒有在講改善這些重災區的恐怖而是都是維持原形條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6379.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6403.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們是其實在去年本委員會報告空污的時候我都有很清楚說明我們的空品白皮書我要怎麼去做檢量未來如何到達10或到達8這個我是說從中南部人的這個角度出發你可不可以很簡單的去講我現在看到這個黃色的部分您覺得最重要是要做什麼其實第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6404.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6428.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
季節性第一個中南部因為他的這個大氣的條件在某些季節某些天氣的時候他自然而然就容易累積那當然啦這個累積我們先不要推給季節我說從你的部分你可以怎麼做我的部分當然是要因為季節我們改善不了啊點線面圓都要一起來減那當然每一個縣市他的這個貢獻的來源都不大一樣所以我們要每一個縣市都要對症下要來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6430.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6454.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好 沒關係之後還會有很多委員詢問你這部分的問題但我們今天其實中南部的民眾啦他們就是想聽到說你講的說空污改善那就是一個平均但是對人民的感受是政府告訴我們說平均薪資往上漲已經四萬七可是沒有達到四萬七的人其實是多數的所以他們並沒有辦法對這個東西感到有感嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6455.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6460.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以我們今天要探討的是這個區塊他們當然想聽到說你對這個區塊的看法然後你希望針對這個區塊先不要去提天氣氣候等等的這個區塊你應該重點要怎麼管理那當然點線面你這個都是全國的是平均的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6472.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6501.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我沒有每個縣市都有每個縣市都有我這邊有每個縣市所有每個地方他要解決的例如說他的來源貢獻是多少我每個縣市都有一張圖當然高雄的這個點元是比較多那中部其實面圓已經超過六成以上這個點元只有在兩成左右所以我是覺得如果我也要談空污不能夠只談一個政治性的語言來談是要從實際上的數字這個部分我們未來會其實這個不是政治性的語言這個是很多人關切的健康問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6502.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6529.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
其實很多人都有問過這些不抽菸的族群的肺癌的風險就是跟這些東西都有相關PA2.5等等你PA2.5也還沒達到你環境不自己滿意的12啦尤其是這些重災區都沒有達到12啦所以我們下次下次如果有機會因為剛剛邱惠韋有說兩週內會辦公聽會所以我們希望在這個公聽會當中可以聽到您針對重災區有更多的看法跟見解好嗎是 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6531.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6555.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好那下一個議題下一個議題是最近這個許多人在網路上討論因為會害怕這個台中最近有破獲了一個非法兒少性影像的族群那這個族群有個特色他就是很喜歡去公立或者是私立的廁所做偷拍所以呢有一個略性男子他被抓到25歲他在新北處的一個公園就用手機偷拍 受害者大概有863人 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6556.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6578.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那裡面也有包括高鐵高鐵高雄高鐵站有在男性的小電陡這邊發現偷拍攝影機所以這些受害者現在完全不分性別而且包括你跟我其實我們很常到高鐵站我們也可能是受害者因此在這邊想要跟你討論公廁的防窺設計不只是地方要做中央的政策也要跟進啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6579.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6594.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
否則未來就會有更多受害 那這邊提供一些數據給部長參考這個影像性保理終身的盛行率大概是10.4%我的那個 抱歉一下那時間幫我暫停一下 謝謝是 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6608.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6611.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
是這個這兩年來第一次是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6639.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6655.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
連環線也接環線真的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6674.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6690.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
對 我跟主席還有部長討論一下因為我覺得我今天的內容可能沒有那麼也可以不需要投影片那我們用口頭來做討論好嗎是 可以那我就用一些數據好 謝謝可能就不用圖片呈現那我們就時間繼續好剛剛講到說這個盛行率是10 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6694.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6722.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那裡面就偷拍的這個比例大概佔6.8%所以非常非常的高那本席在這邊是希望給你一點建議因為近十年來啊這些網路性影像有越來越上升的趨勢而且他的手法非常的多樣化受害者範圍也很擴大就是比如說從剛講到的兒少一直到什麼公務人員啊警察啊或者是一些特殊職業的這些職業別那公共場所就非常擔憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6723.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6738.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那我這邊本來是要秀出一個您的環境部的美質環境推動計畫這個是從114年到119年但這裡面呢列管了這個維護管理指引裡面就是沒有防虧的這些相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6742.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6757.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
謝謝委員的這個我們過去可能沒有注意到這個問題我回去會交代請他們來研議因為這個主要是例如說高鐵他們要主動來負責這個事因為公共場所是他們在維護的那我們可能來提一個指引然後來研究找一些防虧的專家因為現在防虧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6758.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6773.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
想偷窺的人他的技術也在日新月異我們要我們技術也要升級不能用過去的概念來做那其實現在有一些偵測的偵測的一些手法比如說防竊聽等等手法我們會請專家來研議如何把這樣的一個防偷窺的 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6774.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6792.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
放在我們一個廁所的一個質疑裡面那我這邊想要給您兩個建議也希望您可以找同仁去蒐集這一類的資料在日本的話呢它就是有把那個隔間說明說明得非常明白因為它上面防頭盔所以它就要設定到一個幾乎手碰不到的高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6792.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6816.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那下面的話他也是為了防這個手機偷拍所以他會把這個縫隙減小但同時當然要兼顧他可以打掃啊清潔等等的所以他有一些這個專門做廁所設計的創作者的設計理念然後他有去宣傳這樣子然後去打造17處的公共廁所然後也變成他們的觀光的宣傳之一這個是日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6816.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6834.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那在韓國的話因為他們曾經出現比我們還嚴重的一些犯罪手法所以他們對這個又更加的重視了他們有一個國民安心綠色公共廁所的先導事業那裡面就包括這個偷拍的偵測他說每半年就會檢查這個緊急鄰的運作或者是這個掃這個設備啊等等的那韓國他們也有春節中秋還有暑假 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6843.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6866.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
針對這三個期間因為公共廁所使用增加所以他他是讓國人可以安心所以這個這個期間就這個春節這個期間節日的期間他就會增加這個去掃或者是預防公共事故還有強化衛生管理的等等的那對他們來說他們就會去知道說政府有定期再去掃這些設備所以在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6868.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6889.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
具體就其實我有做一個給您的建議啦就是第一就是防虧設計就是你們要把它納入那第二看要不要定期去做反真孔的這些檢驗第三呢因為我們現在可能有一些QR code它是要反映說這個衛生問題但你是不是也可以在這個QR code裡面去反映它可能有發現疑似真孔的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6890.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6913.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那第四就从风险管理的角度就比如说韩国他会在特定的节日或是很多人使用的那举例台湾可能转运站啊或者是大的公园休息站等等你可以从这些地方先去落实好谢谢委员的建议因为我们过去这一年多我们在推这个大概就是第一个卫生纸可以丢马桶然后另外一个是比较有这个蹲式的要做事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6914.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6930.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那委員你的建議非常好我們會趕快我會來回去會交代請他們把委員的這個概念放進去我們公測的這個質疑裡面希望全國一起來有這樣的這個功能好謝謝那之後大概多多久的時間可以跟您獲得這個報告呃好我一個月好不好一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6932.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6950.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好 謝謝委員 謝謝再來這也是高雄縣還是很關心的因為其實在碼頭山的附近有一個地方堆砌廢棄物到現在都還沒有辦法清理那當然您提出廢棄法的修法其實已經相對的完整了裡面包括代為清除啊求償強制執行假扣啊假處分等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6950.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6977.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
但是呢以我們最近這幾個例子像碼頭山它總共有兩塊三千噸的廢棄物大屏頂等等拖了半年有的是拖了三年多才清完然後最後是罰幾百萬而已那我們去分析的各縣市當然不只高雄還有一些中部的也有遇到這樣子的犯罪行為他們就是去找國有地沒有在使用的國有地或者是根本不容易找到地主的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6978.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7004.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
人煙很稀少的地方去請到事業廢棄物堆在那邊以後他第一要找到有錢然後第二還要找到負責人他才有辦法去處理那當然這最近這個碼頭山附近的那個被堆置廢棄物的地方已經兩年了他們就來跟我們反映他們擔心污染啊然後有惡臭啊那也很影響他們當地居民的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7004.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7031.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
還有當地這些事業的發展所以這邊本席是想跟您討論我們是不是應該要認真的來研擬這個設立廢棄物場址復原的專責裁員那當然是類似土屋法這樣的整治基金這樣子的概念來做那為什麼呢是因為像上次這個碼頭山他最後沒有辦法清除就是因為他沒有辦法被認定是土屋案件你們去那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7032.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7054.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
採樣然後最後跟我們說沒有汙染那我們在這邊就有一個想法想提出跟您討論嘛是不是這個用比較合理的方向比如說採取財源是這個混合制然後也比較符合專款專用這樣子的制度邏輯到時候他就有一筆錢可以去先做這件事情然後再來做求償 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7055.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7070.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好 謝謝委員這個意見非常好因為我們在修廢青法的時候第一個廢青法他會加重處罰所以這個會比以前重非常多這樣遏止這個非法那其實我們當時也有討論過是不是這個但你有看到最近那個大峽谷的事件我當然有聽說對 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7071.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7093.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
就是說其實這個一開始我們就要說一開始我們只要發現就直接把它這個凍結所以這個部分未來這個速度會加快過去是沒辦法的所以那你剛剛列了幾個情形就是以前的這個狀況那我如果修法成功那其實我覺得他有可能他在做這個清道的動作之前他就已經把他的財務都處理完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7094.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7118.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
但是我們目前會有連帶責任也就是說我可以抓到誰連政策公司上游全部都有責任所以這個未來會更完整希望委員可以支持我們唯一的問題就是說到底這些錢罰款可不可以拿來做清理目前的必須說這是有一套程序我們還在協調當中我們的主計單位是希望不要有這樣叫我們變購物預算所以未來我認為委員這個方式是可以來討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7119.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7142.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
因為你的土屋法有這樣子的設計所以你要不要採取類似像土屋法的專款專用的基金來做這些緊急的處理因為我這邊當然知道說不是用來處理全部是說我剛剛提到的狀況比如說緊急應變必要的清除污染控制或是他長指的復原風險監控這些就特殊的狀況你才來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7143.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7166.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
對 這個我們會再來盤點一下這個可能的亮點會多少因為我們過去的確提出有這個想法但是我們的財政單位他們認為是現在不宜再做這個事情那我們可以也是一個月跟你要研擬這樣子的資金的報告嗎因為這個的確要清理為什麼速度慢 就是沒有錢嘛政府要編預算 現在沒有財源做這個事所以這個的確是一個方法之一啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7167.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7180.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝陳金輝委員的質詢現在宣告在廖偉祥委員質詢宣導完畢之後休息十分鐘現在請邱惠璐委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7196.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7204.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
主席還有各位委員先進還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請這個彭部長有請彭部長邱委員好是彭部長你好那我想呢空無法第一條我相信您比誰都更清楚他開宗明義就提到立法目的是為了要維護生活的環境然後為了要促進國民的健康那請問一下你認同這樣的立法意旨嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7225.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7245.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這是我們的工作完全認同我想請教一下不曉得您對於這一兩天經濟部發出的聲明也就是說因為有8000家業者對於空污法如果要修正的話可能會影響到他們的生計可能會影響到供電就是他們的說法業者的角度看出來的觀點是這樣好像經濟部也替他們倡議請問一下你怎麼看經濟部的倡議 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7250.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7263.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
基本上環境部是保護環境的工作經濟部是照顧產業的發展其實這部分您感覺起來是有衝突但是我們有我們的職責跟使命所以我們不會去做聲明但是我們也去感謝經濟部也幫產業發聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7264.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7285.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我瞭解但是我在想您的心中如果真的要二者一選擇我想空無法第一條維護生活的環境促進國民的健康才是被你心中奉為貴賤的吧當然但是我告訴你就是說你也是學醫學背景要把這個根源找到不是一句話這個就是造成健康的因素我們現在正在做這個過去沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7286.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7296.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
部長我知道我在想就是說因為您身為環境部長你應該是以國人的呼吸權因為空汙真的非常嚴重以國人的健康權為馬首是瞻那這個經濟部的聲明我在想你應該也不會以經濟部的聲明馬首是瞻因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7304.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7322.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個產業八千家嘛但是我們的數字這裡更龐大高雄市的居民就有兩百七十萬然後呢空屋十大的城市那加起來的人口有一千七百萬一千七百萬佔我們的人口呢其實是七成所以這個七成的聲音真的不能夠漠視部長請問您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7324.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7346.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我認同但是還是要把原因找出來因為委員你這邊譬如說我說的有點元、縣元、面元其實我們現在的點元我們的移動元或是我們的這個面元營建工地或是各種已經超過移動元部長你說到這個移動元我想上次我有呈現出來說其實雲林跟高雄兩個縣市是全台灣數一數二空無最嚴重的嘛那恰恰呢剛好他們就有電廠嘛新達電廠、麥寮電廠嘛那上次 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7350.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7379.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
您跟我說這個固定污染源不見得是主因移動污染源才是主因結果呢 移動污染源當然你有提到摩托車嘛那結果呢 你知道你此話一出真的線上即時網路上大家就在嗆你耶 你知道嗆你什麼東西雲林跟彰化不是 我覺得反映民意請問雲林跟彰化難道全國汽機車最多嗎汽機車最多的應該是台北的那個台北橋機車部部長有沒有去供奉其聖那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7381.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7389.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
見證一下這個台北的移動污染源應該最多可是我們的數字相較於雲林跟高雄來說我們其實沒有人家的產蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7390.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7403.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
包委員 這個空氣污染的數值每個縣市都有調查那可以 拜託委員您的團隊 您的族群不要斷章取義我的這邊說的說法我那個輿情必須不能在某一個誤導之下包委員 我們每一個環境部都有公布我們的空污的排放的數據在這邊還是要以科學數據為基準 科學理性物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7420.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7441.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
對部長我這邊想跟你請教一件事就是說我們來確認一下現行法我在想你應該是有掌握那我以情境A跟情境B來跟你做一個確認因為剛其實我在講那個提案說明的時候其實已經提到了我們先講A情境A情境就是說你這個固定污染源如果你的這個操作許可證如果到期 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7442.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7454.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
但是業者有在法定期間就是所謂法定期間就是前三到六個月提出申請的話那當然如果這時候行政主管機關沒有在許可證的這個期限戒制前完成審查那當然了這個就容許業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7457.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7484.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
容許業者在行政機關審查完畢之後他其實是可以繼續操作的這是我們講的情境A那情境A規範就是在這個控務法的30條第三項好第三項那現在要跟部長分享的是情境B情境B呢情境B就是右邊這張圖就是說如果今天業者呢他沒有在法定期間也就是三到六個月的法定期間提出申請展言那沒有提出申請展言那到 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7485.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7506.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
操作許可證這個到期之前行政機關當然也沒有審查完畢那這個情況之下當然就要立即固定污染源就要立即停止操作這個是情境B那我想這規範的非常的清楚AB兩個情境規範非常清楚所以我這邊想跟部長請教因為我們以興達電廠為例興達電廠其實在2024年9月30號的時候他其實操作許可證就已經借滿了嘛那我想這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7513.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7537.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
副長掌握事實應該也是蠻清楚的所以在2024年的時候新達定廠其實曾經提出展言但是呢這個展言其實被高雄的環保局在9月26號其實就已經已經這個駁回了所以這個是我們講的情境A情境A就是他有在法定的期限就是三到六個月提出展言那當然了這個我們的環保局也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7538.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7567.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
操作許可證前9月30的前4天就把它駁回了所以第一個事實第一個story完全都已經講完了但遺憾的是居然還發展出第二個story第二個story就是9月26號被駁回的同時呢台電在提出展言可是台電這時候的展言其實已經超過所謂的法定期間提出了那這時候我們就應該適用情境B的法條那如果適用情境B的法條呢那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7568.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7569.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
如果環保局沒有在9月30號操作許可證這個到期前去做一個準補的決定那這個興達電廠30號機組其實就應該要停止運作這是前進逼的情形 那請問一下部長您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7583.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7609.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好 我們請我們市長來說好 沒有問題沒有問題跟委員報告其實他駁回以後他就進入了那個緊急備用就回到我們原來規定他只能運作720小時的規定了解 你就說緊急備用嘛好 那我先講一件事就是說其實呢你們當然是拿另外一個法律來做一個解套那事實上拿另外一個法律做解套那事實上從9月30一直到隔年的5月23號其實就是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7610.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7639.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
有這個運轉的操作了好幾次我想這邊的日期都非常清楚4月4月5月21號23號那其中這段期間其實還有一些無照的燃煤然後製造各種空污讓高雄居民承受那我們當然現行法其實法有明文規定但是我們就覺得說這樣的法有明文規定其實是不合理的可能就是以人民的健康作為基礎所以我們才提出空污法30條的修正就是如果超過許可期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7640.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7664.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
超過的許可的日期之後就是至多只能夠操作兩個月所以在這邊也跟這個環境部的部長還有這邊署長來做一個交換就是我們之所以提出修法理由就是在這邊我們不應該讓行政機關恣意的妄為如果一旦有出現這個故意拖延然後配合放水大開方便之門其實犧牲的是民眾的健康權我擔心的是這個啦因為我們全台灣已經有非常多人民在用廢發電了 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7665.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7670.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我心疼的是他們的費這樣子那說起呢 我剛剛其實非常認真的聆聽報告國科會 我們國科會剛好像沒有報告到他說跟他們申請的這個展延的案件他們全都在那個許可證的到期之日完成審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7685.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7707.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那我覺得國科會可以啊為什麼其他縣市不可以啊其實我們這邊30條的這個修正就是想說大家就在許可證到期之前把行政程序完成就好了根本不會有許可你可能沒有行政經驗喔因為地方的人力在審核的人力非常的緊縮而且這個所有的程序都要必須要很複雜實際上體驗的一個過程包括我們的經濟部我們民眾黨提出來說3到5年要下修程兩年然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7715.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7740.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但是經濟部呢這個望而卻步的理由是因為會增加行政負擔那我當然知道人力非常的這個有需要去填補但是我覺得不應該以行政程序你說人力不足嘛不應該以行政程序作為跟我們國民健康交換的一個籌碼或者是依據所以我覺得應該是把我們的費跟把我們的健康權放在第一位比較重要好那部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7741.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7761.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我現在想請問你其實我講的就是說這個操作許可證我們想知道實務行政機關實務的經驗所以可不可以跟我們有一些數據上的分享就是到底每年有多少申請案那到底環境部或者是地方政府核發的這些操作許可證有幾張單美使用許可證有幾張 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7764.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7779.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
從這些申請的案例我們想看到平均值然後我們也想看到最快的審核通過的日期跟最慢的審核通過日期我們需要這些實證的資料我們才能夠進一步來做監督那不知道部長這邊可不可以分享給我們沒有問題但是也跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7780.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7798.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
你也請委員去看看107年以前那個地方的亂象修改之後我們改進了成果用理性務實科學的方式來解決這個問題理性務實科學當然是我們方為規列但是其實就是有一個但是委員你沒有啊你沒有問我們就列列了兩個月啊你上次其實你講的話我其實都印象深刻然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7800.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7826.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
午夜夢回也在回想部長真的是一個誠實的好部長因為上次您真的有提到說有些機關不肖的機關行政機關上下其手然後故意拖拉我們防堵的是那種啦當然像您這種衛福部環境部這種奉公守法然後想要為人民健康把關的然後把空無法的第一條維護環境的這個乾淨還有人民的健康氛圍櫃內的部長跟我們是非常肯定的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7827.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7846.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
像委員上次我們也在協商光電商把它修的時候我們也很努力的提出了光電多少面積的環境我跟委託的研究計畫結果你們砰一下就過了現在就受到很大的影響近零的速度都慢下來了這一點我們有肯定環境部的努力真的有肯定您的辦公室也要到我們這邊來做說明我們真的覺得非常的感動 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7849.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7869.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
有有有沒有問題反正就如同公聽會其實即將舉辦在即嘛那也許有更好的一些意見的交換我們可以在那邊呈現在國人的眼前讓國人來做一個公平那這邊也謝謝部長來接受我的質詢謝謝我們一起為國人的健康還有生活的環境來努力謝謝謝謝邱會務委員的質詢接下來請邱政軍委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7885.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7911.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
有請彭部長邱委員好部長好我相信大家不管是企業還是政府對於減少空污都有相當程度的一個共識那修法是一個工具那當然目的是要減少污染那我現在在裡面看到一些就是這次要修正的這些空管的這些條文那展延是不是可以在時間內完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7913.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7942.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
就要看廠商是不是能準時申請嘛另外還有一個有沒有符合規定我想了解一下現在有操作許可的8000家中大型廠商總共有大概1.1萬張的許可證在現在法規的條件下有多少比例按照規定在期滿前3個月至6個月提出申請展延的因為我有數字但是我記不得是不是請我們市長來報告還是有一個數大概幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7949.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7972.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
基本上都是三到六個月前都會但是如果展延審查逾期的話以去年為例大概是過去這四年大概是236件我大概跟你算了一下大概是95至98會提出來那我再問一下現在有多少案件是在到期前沒有辦法完成的有非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7973.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8001.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
有非常多那部分審查嚴格的這個部分我大概講給你聽大概有20%到30%那所以95%以上是的廠商都是在時間內來申請那像中火中火就是因為這個煤量超過被台中市政府三度開罰以後廢證那這被環境部撤銷中火1800萬的這個划環最後台中又被這個台北高等法院判勝訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8002.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8016.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那問題氣體排放這個量查檢不管是為了申請國內優惠利率還是外交抵扣歐盟現在都要經過第三方驗證沒有錯吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8019.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8040.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那企業爲爲爭取這個優惠的費率要先投入大筆的資金改善設備或換新的好不容易節省下來的這個碳費又要因爲申請匯率就要給第三方查驗機構費用那這幾年下來需要查驗的這個單位暴增是可以檢查的增加不多所以就是發生碳排放大戶查驗費用從105年300多萬那到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8044.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8057.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
2015年1000多萬元實際上這種規模的公司他們都會訓練自己的查驗人員如果人員都有這個ISO14064-1盤查機ISO14064-3的查證授訊合格證書再加上他們自己驗的這個數據跟外部的數據誤差只有0.5是不是可以讓他們自主申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8069.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8096.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
OK 包委員盤查跟查驗證是兩套的體系喔其實這個如果是一個公司自己有懂的話其實只要查驗證而已那個費用沒那麼貴啦事實上現在我們是上去年前一兩年我都有說得很清楚第一個金管會規定的上市櫃公司要做盤查查驗證大概是一兩千家然後另外一個是我們碳費要收的大概是五百個公司左右然後其他的就是有一些是全球的供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8097.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8114.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這需要做其他的我們大多數做好的企業都不用做所以我們目前是非常清楚的所以目前過去的確有一個一頭熱大家趕快去做但是不知道為什麼我覺得這個費用太高了然後你讓企業自己來做做了之後他把這個錢省下來再去投資這個減碳設備不是更好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8115.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8129.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
對 其實一個企業如果正常做的話他不需要非常多以我自己過去來做的話大概一年花個二三十萬左右而已就像我們在申報綜合所得稅你想申請撫養扣除了你只需要提供證明文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8131.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8151.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
給這個稅捐處由稅捐處來審核那稅捐不會強迫你一定要先花三萬元請會計師來簽證嘛對 一樣的道理嘛如果因為起這個我們如果減少這個部分的話就可以讓我們的企業在申報的時候可以減少很多的成本那效率也會更高不是嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8151.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8176.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我猜想委員提到有些大的企業它比較高的原因是它可能是供應鏈的需求它需要做到範疇三那個就比較複雜需要比較多的人力跟查驗證的一個機會但是事實上我們現在並沒有到範疇三國內的規定那我們現在其實是只有我剛才說的商事會公司還有我們環境部列管的公司或是說它自己已經是國際的供應鏈它需要做所以這三種之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8176.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8199.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
都不用去做主動的盤查因為過去呢一頭熱讓這個市場變得非常混亂造成費用非常的高我們有注意到這個現象就像那個什麼外銷這個抵稅是業者的這個商業考量就把選擇權還給業者嘛要外銷就自行委託第三方查驗費用自付來抵這個國內碳費或國外的碳稅如果沒有的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8200.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8210.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
他國的這個碳費一樣繳只是不用再給人過一手部長你研究看看是我研究看看謝謝然後金管會環境部你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8214.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8235.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
要的格式不一樣吧你們要的格式檢查東西也是一樣的嗎有一點點不大一樣因為他們要的是IFRS就是國際的會計的準則的SYS2那跟我們這個探盤查是不一樣但是也跟我們報告一樣嘛對不對那能不能就是說同樣的數據因為為什麼我們不能整合出一戰式的申報系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8237.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8262.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個因為目的需求不一樣但是我們有討論過這個問題 要務必自己去抓嘛對 要申報上來你們自己去撈啊對 但是也報告委員因為我們目前覺得說過去金管會在制定的過程當中有一些程序真的行政流程太多太重所以我們其實也觀察到歐盟有在做修正更務實落地一點點要把錢花在減碳上面不是做行政成本上面你看現在的產業市場部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8265.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8287.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
因為價格非常的亂部長有沒有這個想法說要制定一個收費的天花板可能我們沒辦法定啦但是我們會希望說讓企業知道更清楚的規範省掉他們的行政成本那自然而然這樣的外界這種顧問公司這個價錢很波動的情況應該就會受到一些抑制的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8287.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8313.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我這只是建議啦你們自己再參考啦另外就是我們行政規費由這個碳費來支應這個部長覺得咧因為全世界沒有一個因為碳費是要減碳要付這個碳費所以他這個行政費用碳費來抵減這個恐怕有一點困難還沒有報紙先扒一層皮啊基本上他是必須要做因為他是要得到查驗證啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8314.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8343.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
因為我看到化學署現在研擬要徵收的是化學物質運作費你們計劃什麼時候要開始收目前還沒有 目前因為紀念嗎 徵收的對象呢主要是大的這個污染化學的排放源但是目前我們其實還沒有一個開始隨時什麼時候要徵收的計劃因為這個錢不多 很少但是這個是不是由政府的公務預算來支出或是從業者裡面去來收這個可以再討論所以會成立這個化學物質管理基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8344.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8355.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
對我們目前原來這個在化學物質管理署在成立的時候在法規裡面就有訂這一項但是一直都沒有主要是這個基金未來是要怎麼用就是來幫這些產業減少這個化學的嚴重的化災的災害 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8359.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8383.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
是為了提升這個化學事故的監控嗎是然後服務品質例如說像我舉例有一些化工廠我們其實可以多一點研究或是有一些設施來幫他們解決一些意外的一個狀況所以我們現在目前過去的確有這樣設想但是我也跟我同仁討論說因為企業要繳的費用實在太多種了他們會混淆所以是不是說這個部分由公務預算或是由稅因為每個國家狀況不一樣所以我們還在研議當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8386.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8405.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
因為之前發生過幾次重大的工廠爆炸就像民洋大火金門工業經事後調查多數是下游使用端的儲存端的管理不當那輸入跟製造商他本身的管理機制已經非常嚴謹了那多數都沒有專職的應變團隊跟監控系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8410.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8433.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那如果目前研擬的草案只是對於源頭徵收我覺得這是不對的那我們真正希望的品質管理就這個降低風險的對象我想目標都錯誤了應該要往下游來去做管理因為這個各地的下游運作的儲存廠商他們反而沒有這筆徵收那他沒有這筆徵收的時候他就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8435.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8453.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
沒有那麼認真啦我這樣講啦那這部分我們是不是應該再評估一下在這個部分今天要探收費的時候國際形勢也不是很好我希望你們再評估一下好不好也包圍我們的確在前一兩個月內部有討論過這個事情那我的政策只是說先停一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8453.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8475.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
再跟行政院來做協商是不是先從公務預算來做處理因為我們也知道近期這個國際的這個這種化學原料相對的都受到一些衝擊所以我們希望說不要那麼的快然後有一些更好的方案提出來再說好啦所以我剛剛還是回到第一題就是我們剛剛講的那個空污法的部分我想部長你還是要這個多溝通啦多溝通把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8477.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8491.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
影響降到最低當然我們希望這個空氣品質越來越好了那我也不希望說因為一個政策然後一個法案的修改那影響到了很多的企業這整個產業鏈的問題好不好好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員的諮詢接下來請蘇清泉委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8511.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8512.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
今天這個法案我們就大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8527.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8553.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
然後就辦公聽會,然後再來審法條讓大家各退一步,部長這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員,這個是我們也期待的,因為這個的確需要大家多一點溝通啦謝謝,謝謝委員我們怕傷及無辜嘛,這個次長剛剛最擔心的嘛,怕傷及無辜來,我們現在講嚴肅的問題,下一張再下一張,這個是去年丹娜斯颱風 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8555.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8561.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我這裡有質詢,那個就是海上光電板那一件事就不見了,那我跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8563.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8588.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們現在沿海的邦寮、加東、東港這些鄉親市長,他也是很關心因為光電板都在海底40多公尺,都帶在沙子裡面不然你說那些光電板沒有什麼災難,沒有什麼汙染是這樣嗎?部長部長因為這個主管能源署能源署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8592.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8617.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
你現在把那個H1的實驗性質也罷了那你現在你當初給他贊助支出一億兩 一億三千多萬那你在我們陳慶輝他們開的那個記者會這個案子是失敗了失敗嘛那你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8618.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8632.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我剛剛問了兩個問題光電盤是不是就暫時擱置在那裡有沒有汙染第二個你們要當初能源署的代理署長說要追回一些補助那現在做了怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8633.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8656.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
第一個它這個是一個業界科專的計畫那業界的科專計畫當時提出申請的時候我們要求他去做一些不但是政府如果是通過的話政府會提供他補助他自己也要提供相對的這個金額除此之外的話內容的部分我們要求他要做一些的科學的驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8658.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8684.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這個是第一個第二個部分剛剛委員所關心的事實上在去年的這個颱風之前他已經把那個光電板已經拆掉了那委員你這個照片看的一個部分它是有一些伏台的一個支架啦它會到台下嘛台下連環的光電板在大鵬灣那裡組合之後拖出去拆了他敢說他風台進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8688.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8697.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個就有點瞎扯啦風太陣仗沒人看到他就拖拚了起來所以我要跟你盡切實因為有 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8699.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8724.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
蛙人部隊退休的人說要來跟我說他們要想去潛水我說不要啦這個因為是那個資產是旭東公司的資產我們不要去碰它那我現在跟市長講說可能有一部分客家但一部分都在海底海底我之前問我們的部長彭部長說那有汙染嗎彭部長說那沒什麼汙染 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8728.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8735.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那我現在要抗勝的就是列隊沒有站起來的會汙染在裡面你們有要摧毀你們就補助這樣兩項而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8740.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8765.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
前面的那個問題就是麻煩環境部第二個問題的話因為一些科專原來的這個契約的部分那我們這個依照契約來做處理那除了原來的這個他所給付的這些的款項之外後面的這個部分我們是不會再做給付他自己所投資的這個部分的話那當然也因為這一次的一個試驗的一個終止之後他就終止了這個事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8766.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8793.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以你們沒有要跟他做一些步驟嗎?他之前能源署的代理署長有這樣說喔?到底你們現在的過程是怎樣?我想他的意思應該是說依照契約來處理啦那在這邊跟委員說明,委員也非常的清楚其實台灣的科技的發展除了業界科專之外,還有學界的科專那這些的科專的這個計畫,它不必然是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8795.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8808.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
他開始提出構想的時候那他馬上就能成真那這個部分政府必須要有一點的鼓勵的一個情勢但是在鼓勵的同時的話我們在契約裡面也要求說他要 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8810.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8834.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
出資相當的款項換句話說風險不應該是由政府來承擔但是若是這些的客鑽計畫研究有所成比如說以這個案子的話我們會去檢視他原來的這履約的這個過程裡面驗證了這些的資料我們這些的資料的話我們大概所有的實驗性質的東西我們是可以容忍一些浪費啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8836.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8849.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
就是藥品的開發常常都失敗的所以失敗我們是可以接受失敗的那你如果是你在補助他他們沒有亂搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8850.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8870.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我說他可以扛7到12公尺的巨浪 結果沒有什麼所以那是失敗 失敗他如果說他沒有亂開 他沒有靠這個東西在想我或是靠你幫忙做探測 或許還可以接受你這個後面那些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8874.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8890.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
給我一個報告好不好 給我一個報告你們現在處理到什麼程度我問你 你說那在海底是不是沒有汙染這幾個現在還有嗎因為我問他就是有沒有光電板沉下去他說沒有啦什麼沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8892.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8920.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
不要說之前就拆掉啦這個講話要負責任 不要不要然後第二個是他的這個浮台喔 那個是這個浮台是要拉上來要拉上來 要拉上來對 要拉到配合去對 對 拉到一四個去那這個如果飄到海上的就等於是如果是殘渣的話這個要把它撈起來啦所以我相信他們已經有做了這些事情那我們會再去了解一下報告 結論要一年喔 五年出的比較近喔所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8923.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8944.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
讓我說一下,現在鄉親很關心啦我不會很苛責公務員,我從來不會苛責公務員我從來不會,我都會聽他的鼓勵,因為公務員好不容易苛責特赤做到這個節目,薪水一輸了,薪水減少,來這裡用糟蹋,我沒有辦法接受我常常跟部長這樣說,我也常常跟你們鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8947.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8951.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這樣可以嗎?市長請回,我要問部長的事來這個麥寮電廠1號機3號機的燃煤發電5月份開始要明天明天後天要開始燃煤這是真的假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8971.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8998.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
因為我們沒有參與,那這個應該是能源署或是經濟部要來負擔,要來處理今天羅廷偉他們提這個公務,這個就是因為對於發電廠,南美的發電廠非常痛恨嘛所以一開始他開宗明義就是要收債而已結果不知道發下去會不會衝到北京幾間的屬性公司,有用歐陸的,中間是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9000.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9021.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那所以這要燃煤當然是因為我們在波斯灣那邊要石油要液態天然氣現在都就72%來自於波斯灣石油32%來那個液態天然氣來自於卡達嘛那卡達現在停產了所以用燃煤來補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9022.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9036.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這個我們也可以理解所以昨天在恆春的河山場園園會在那邊做說明我從頭到尾我就說我支持的是河一、河二、河三、河四都要重啟 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9038.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9047.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
難道有基礎電力嗎?不然這個是誰給我們的壓力?我們很肯定我們賴總統他這樣做這種決策,也不簡單耶極轉彎耶那這是誰的壓力?當然是美國的壓力嘛!我今天要講的就是,我們美國如果有,你們就要蓋主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9059.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9068.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們屏東喔 我要再講一次 屏東這大武山 這個是來 怎麼又沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9070.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9080.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這空汙喔 哈哈哈哈 看不出來 空汙喔不對啦 你看那邊漏氣不啦 嚇死人啦 你看嘛我以為螢幕又壞掉了這個大武山喔 他的關都三千公尺那剛才大武一直搶 一個個的 一個個的 一個個的搶全部都是八百幾個延宴 背棄的東西 都背棄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9103.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9119.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那有幾個效應,第一個是大午三檔下的效應第二個就是溫北季風整個口袋效應,不會到那裡,整個都積在冰箱冰箱有夠小的,全部都在那裡,不碰到湯不碰到蠟,都碰到PF2.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9122.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9147.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
跟VOC 跟NOX還有一些臭氧O3那這些東西搞一搞二次曝曬就會產生PM2.5 PM10那我們一大堆吸血管疾病 腹瀉道疾病柏廷 我跟你講一個data你剛剛有講到台灣的PM2.5的平均是16 15嗎12.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9153.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9165.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
手動的啦,手動比較有標準啦高雄、臨沿這邊大拿寶鴨差不多18到20啦那屏東市21到25屏東、潮州、太湖山的三角下24到28,差不多一百半然後臭陽都是極高 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9179.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9199.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那裡面的那個,我有去看潮生國小,潮什麼國小,有一個監測站,空氣監測站,是在平地,那可以不斷要求,你可以在大武山的山腳下,是半山腰,設一個站,我們來那邊測最準。 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9205.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9223.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我們來評估一下,一黃性的降災,不然如果口袋效應,我們吸血管其實不用那麼多,我本來以為在山腳下,在山上的人是非常的,住在天堂,結果發現可能,住在高度汙染。 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9224.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9250.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那他們的肺腺癌也不會救所以這個因為又弱勢嘛我們主席主席那過年了原住民朋友咧不要讓他們再繼續這麼受害我們原住民的平均壽命是平地少平地少10歲現在比較好了現在少7歲7歲所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9252.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9275.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們是有在努力 盧縣業也很努力那我們是隨時能夠幫忙他們醫療等等我們都要來努力啦那具體的要求就是 他們要撤一個站好不好我們大潮州地區 三角下 屏東 屏遠你們以為那邊非常好 結果沒有那邊很糟糕 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9276.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9282.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好 我們來引顧一下 謝謝委員謝謝蘇清玄委的質詢接下來請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9300.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9314.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
黃委員好部長好部長針對今天我們這個空污法的排審那我想請教就是說我們這個今天討論的這些法案未來如果通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9315.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9329.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個對我們整個環境或者是對我們整體的這個台灣整體然後不論是能源也好或者是產業也好有什麼樣重大的影響那我們環境部你的立場到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9331.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9354.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為第一個是說任何的法案一定要有一個穩定性那從107年這個大幅度修改因為107年我還沒有到政府機關服務其實我聽我同仁說那時候地方的勢力在處理這個過程當中就產生說有些不同勢力就會用這個部分卡對方所以就造成說這個許可證都拿不到造成很大的一個錯亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9355.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9371.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以目前如果真的要回到以前那我建議一定要去審慎這個可能空污沒有治理就造成很多的爭議事情就會出來所以我們的立場會從這樣那第二個是我也跟我同仁特別討論說各地環保局怎麼去做這個事那也不瞞各位委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9371.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9400.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9400.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9427.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
要各種的法規可能越嚴越好但是是不是這個法規是真的越嚴還是只不過是把原來的穩定性把它破壞掉了造成產業沒有辦法接受這個我們可以評估可以來討論其實我第一個我想到可能產業會有很大的衝擊第二個就是說地方政府尤其是地方的環保局它的人員到底夠不夠其實我們一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9428.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9449.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
在抱怨就是說地方政府或者是我們這個有一些譬如說我們要送件那有時候他案子就很多你也不能一直要求他他也會講說委員我的案子就是這麼多我們就只有一個兩個人在在做所以他也沒辦法也沒有那個能力去 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9449.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9463.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
去將你的案子快速審或是怎樣所以我看到這個法案之後我覺得說這個未來第一個會造成地方政府尤其是地方環保局所有公務人員的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9465.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9493.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
大量大幅的增加那除非就是說我們要再增加人力給這個地方的這個環保局的人員要不然這個衝擊的可能不只是所有的產業政府的這個效率也會大打折扣那另外就是說我看到這個法案如果通過之後以彰化來講彰化北有中火那南有這個六清其實彰化對整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9495.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9509.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
空氣污染其實也不少於其他譬如說台中市或南投或雲林其實彰化的空汙其實也是很嚴重那為什麼我們會這樣講因為彰化譬如說它飄 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9510.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9534.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
整個擴散也不是那麼容易所以部長您應該非常清楚整個大氣的擴散如果不容易的話就整個就壓在這個地方然後就造成空汙非常的嚴重尤其是冬天的時候那當然我們也希望就是說這個空汙法修完之後確實是對這個空汙可以有很大的改善可是我看完之後覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9535.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9550.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這個到底對整個空屋會有多大的改善我是抱持著一個疑問所以我想請部長我也請教部長這個修法通過之後以彰化來講對於空屋的這個改善有多大的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9551.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9580.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為這個法案它是針對點源例如說鍋爐或是鍋爐最多然後甚至固定的這種污染源或電力業等等其實就以現在以彰化跟台中差不多它的這個面源大概都佔了六成線源就是我們一般的工地搞到各種生活裡面線源就是交通都佔了大概七成以上所以其實我們只不過解決那三成的排放量的問題其他大多數是沒有算在裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9580.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9603.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以我認為是有限的有限那我想請教就是說部長既然這樣說的話當然這個法案加嚴那確實如果可以對空污的這個改善有幫助我們都全力支持那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說針對這個移動污染源的這個部分其實我也希望就是說能夠再大力的去推動因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9606.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9625.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個在中部地區很多民眾他因為公共運輸不方便所以很多就是開車要不然就騎摩托車那尤其上班的時間這個移動污染源確實是造成地方污染的非常大的一個主要原因所以我也希望部長針對這一部分我們還有努力的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9627.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9649.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那當然就是說我也希望就是說今天的這個這個空污法的這個修正草案我希望能夠大家能夠再多多討論能夠再多多討論那其中有一條我想請教其中有一條就是說主管機關他在審查的時候如果沒有在兩個月內審查完成審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9650.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9674.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那這個業者就不得操作啦那我會覺得很奇怪就是說這個主管機關他自己可能也許人力不足就是人人沒有那麼多然後沒辦法在及時的時間把它審查完畢那為什麼是讓業者來承受這樣子的就是說不得繼續操作我覺得這也是真的非常的奇怪而且也沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9676.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9691.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
罰則對於主管機關也沒有一個什麼樣的規範那我想請教部長就是針對這一部分的話你有什麼樣的看法因為我在民間的時候我很久很久十幾年前也曾經接過政府的案子然後其實就是有這一條我被罰了一兩百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9692.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9719.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我也但是求恕無門這個必須這個公務人員他有時候很多的事情比較慢可能就要業者來做承擔所以我以前十幾年前有遇過這個事情所以我非常的感同身受那因為現在的環保局的人員他的程序他的案件真的非常的多而且每一個過程大家都害怕出事加上說現在的經驗度也都不夠都外流到科技產業所以基本上這個兩個月對於地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9720.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9742.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
單位我是建議說如果有一個更好的供聽了解他們實際的心聲會比較好那如果兩個月沒有就沒有了那我認為可能在很多的鍋爐我認為很多的鍋爐的影響例如說餐廳呃旅館等等好所以說是這個醫院那個營會受到很大的影響因為他就不斷的就要去跑這個作業很擔心我可能會被廢掉我就整個要關門了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9743.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9760.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以我就覺得說這個提案也真的還蠻奇怪的因為主管機關的關係然後造成我這個業者不論是醫院剛剛部長有特別提到不論是醫院餐廳旅館或者是我們的食品加工廠或者是畜牧業這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9763.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9784.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個漁業也會受到影響因為可能在冬天的時候他們可能也需要鍋爐去這個水源的一個加熱所以我覺得說這個因為政府的關係然後造成業者的一個損失然後反而主管機關也沒有什麼樣的處分這樣的一個提案我覺得是真的確實還蠻奇怪的啦所以我們希望就是說能夠針對這部分能夠再多聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9787.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9809.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這個不論是專家學者或是業界的一個聲音我覺得應該都要多聽另外我想請教就是說像這樣子的話中央跟地方這個修法如果萬一通過之後中央跟地方是完全不太就是說這個地方到底有沒有空污好像是地方說的算中央好像也沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9810.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9827.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
你變成說你好像也管不著了啦所以我覺得這個我想請教部長針對這一部分可能中央跟地方的這個標準可能看法不一樣或者是各個縣市的這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9828.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9847.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
也不太一樣裁法也不太一樣所以我覺得說這個草案如果通過的話確實我覺得會造成很多的困擾對 也報告委員我擔任部長這兩年我是不應酬不接受各種的關說但是我也跟委員談成我也接受到有人打電話給我某個縣市一直下不來請部長幫忙打個電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9848.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9866.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那我當然都婉拒啦但是我就可以想見說這件事情在地方在審查的時候是多麼有一些壓力存在所以如果我們倉皇的把一些規範拿掉的話的確會讓可能早上林淑芬委員提到的這種上下其手各種的政治勢力介入其實這個是我們不樂見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9868.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9885.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
當然我們希望就是說這個空污法的修法越嚴如果對地方好對整個空氣品質好我們都舉手贊成可是不能倉促的讓他這樣子就通過通過之後可能影響的就是早上講的影響到8000多家的業者那也影響到醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9890.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9914.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
餐旅業然後食品加工廠畜牧業尤其彰化在沿海地區畜牧業也非常的多那地方的醫院也會受也會深受其害所以我希望說針對這部分我們希望所有的委員大家能夠再三思然後能夠開個公聽會廣納各界的聲音好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝黃學芳委員的諮詢接下來請王月明委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9929.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9932.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
好謝謝主席我們有請彭部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好部長我們今天討論這一個空瓶的問題第一個我想要請教你的就是我們現在PM2.5的監測這兩年剛剛你的報告其實已經提到了這兩年PM2.5呢都維持在12.8事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9956.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9983.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
是降不下來喔那這個PM10呢是不減反增喔那但是我們的這個白皮書裡面呢其實有提到一個目標就是2030我要達到的願景喔這個PM2.5你要降到是一立方公尺是10維克喔但是現在已經停滯不前了怎麼樣2030可以再持續往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9985.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9998.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個問題部長你覺得關鍵的因素在哪裡關鍵的因素就是說我們已經進入一個深水區因為過去我們主要針對固定污染源做得比較多但是固定污染源減量是成效是蠻不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9999.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10014.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是如果說現在的我們現在看到的是這個面源有些縣市面源還有這個移動污染源持續的還在增加當中所以目前的這個如果要真的整體要減下來的話的確是需要很大的努力啦那我們為什麼有個白皮書因為我們發現說這樣的問題應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10017.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10037.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
一起來解決而且還有一個就是境外污染的問題也目前來說的話也沒有辦法一半大概沒有辦法去解決這個問題所以我們現在是希望說回到一個源頭這個當然我們10是我們的目標10是我們的目標我們目前的淨零碳排這個政策裡面現在有很多的轉型我們算過有機會達到10的目標2030 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10039.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10064.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
有機會嗎那我們就來看一下因為這個是平均數據但是如果我們看到了中南部雲嘉南地區的狀況特別不好他的這個PM2.5是高達16還在上升當中那為什麼是這樣的一個因素如果你說移動污染源的話雲嘉南地區他的這個汽機車的數量有高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10065.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10081.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
包委員其實這個包含了每年每年因為整個大氣環境的條件不一樣例如說雨下的多少但你這是平均數據啊對平均數據其實每年每年它還在成長啊這個是讓人家比較擔心的沒有要看你說哪一個縣市有在成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10082.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10095.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
雲嘉南的空瓶這個是你們客觀的數據如果說委員如果看一兩年的話那個不准但是如果我以嘉義縣來看的話它108年是24.4去年的話是15.1但是我必須說它跟前一年14.8成長了0.30.3%0.3為客 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10100.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10119.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
對那為什麼會有這樣的情況0.3其實就是趨勢上面我們看到無論是平均值喔或者是這一些區域性喔都沒有辦法呈現在下降沒有沒有我就是去年前年跟去年去年可能是比較特殊有它的一個原因有它的原因啦是什麼原因你們觀察到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10120.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10144.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
為什麼去年的數值都升高目前因為這個溫度增加對於我們相關的化學反應的速率也增加所以有可能造成我們的數值會比前一年升高你是說溫度升高平均氣溫升高那所以今年的話看起來今年四月也開始熱起來了今年如果溫度升高所以今年的數據跟去年比較起來也不融合管了 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10144.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10157.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
如果依照目前我們初步看前三個月我們是比去年還不錯那溫度我剛才講溫度是一個主要的一個因素啦那包含降雨也是還有汙染源的改善也是一個因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10158.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10175.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
好 我覺得這個挑戰事實上是非常大的那我們就來看包括有些相關的配套事實上現在的成績也是不理想第一個就是我們的這一些運具電動化特別是我們看到這個電動車現在雖然比例有增加距離原來要達到的10%還是差了1%的距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10182.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10201.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
但電動機車這個市佔率目標是20%電動機車這個是大幅落後現在大概只有7%那這一塊這個你們跟交通部有沒有一些什麼專案就是來提升這個電動機車的市佔率可以改善我們現在摩托車的數量的確是蠻高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10203.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10228.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
在我們的近鄰的小組在行政院裡面都有在討論到這個議題交通部也坦承說因為必須說我們的經費在財務法過後他們其實想要爭取電動車的補助目前因為這個費用大幅度的減少所以的確這個目標沒有辦法達到所以我們有要求他們說是不是提出一個新的規劃出來因為原來的目標就如同委員說的沒有達到這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10230.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10254.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
這一塊真的是落後太多所以我希望這一個移動污染源也是可以有效減少PM2.5的一個減少就是降低的那如果可以讓他這個電動化這個其實是可以大幅改善這個是可做的這個不是不可控這個其實反而是可控我希望這一個環境部你們要去督促你們有負有督促的責任各部會這一個落後的沒有做到的你們應該是要聯合去督促他 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10260.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10265.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
可以改善 那這個部長你今年希望目標可以達到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10266.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10283.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
電動車這個我會再跟那個交通部再討論一下好這一塊我希望你們要加強去做另外一個就是減煤的政策事實上我們現在沒有減煤的具體的期程我必須這樣子講為什麼因為我們現在燃煤的發電廠到目前為止這個部長我們有拆除任何一部已經被除役 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10297.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10308.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
是不是請台電來回答我這邊也先跟委員報告因為我上禮拜一在日本參加一個會我旁邊都坐了各國的大使也討論到這個問題因為韓國提出了2040年五美韓國他們有很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10315.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10344.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我們還沒有 韓國是2040年那日本呢也在也考慮重啟部分的這個燃煤的電廠因為他們的有超超臨界的一個做法所以我們問他說那你們沒有壓力嗎他說沒有辦法因為這個全世界的中東的這個戰爭危機喔我們政府必須要有一個短適應的一個做法所以這個問題呢是我們臨近我們這幾個國家沒有能源的國家都一起面對到的一個挑戰所以也就是我們不會拆除掉任何一座燃煤電廠對不對因為它都有功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10346.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10367.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
台中電廠的1、2號機已經有承諾在今年底會開始啟動拆除台中會拆除台中的1、2號機 對那3、4號機會配合台中二期的燃氣計畫會在2031年底啟動拆除好 台中反而是比較明確因為台中市政府他很重視這個議題 這個空品的問題那我要請教的是新達電廠1、2號機什麼時候會拆除 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10371.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10391.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
興達電廠是更老舊的他2023年已經如期除役了但是現在呢興達電廠這個前陣子被當地的議員說他光暖機 暖機了60個小時這個到底是在發電還是在暖機都搞不清楚了所以這個興達電廠的部分有任何拆除的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10392.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10410.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
包括目前我們興達的燃煤機組還是留作緊急備用機組就是為了因應這些緊急狀況的一個發生所以興達是不會拆的對不對目前現在還是作為緊急備用機組反而台中這邊就是有一個具體的期程但是興達的部分是不會拆的但是興達其實是很老舊他排放出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10412.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10439.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這個對空污的污染 這個可能是高雄居民會是比較膽行的這個部分這個我覺得環境部你們可能應該要跟台電這邊好好去討論一下另外一個是麥寮的部分麥寮這次也是在中東的這個戰火底下他其實也是要繼續使用麥寮有任何拆除的計畫嗎 也是沒有要不要請能源署來報告好來能源署 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10444.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10453.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那個麥條電廠因為他執照不是他就是跟台電合約去年到期所以他二號機已經拆除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10454.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10473.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
2號機有拆除那現在要重啟的是現在是緊急就是一個現在中東的情勢所以它是1號機跟3號機1號跟3號會運轉它未來也有一個叫做我們叫做改成這個天然氣的計畫預計什麼時候就是以期換美什麼時候以期換美應該2029、2030左右它現在正在做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10479.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10495.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好謝謝好最後我要請教部長這個就是我們看到的現在我們的確我們是一個能源極度匱乏的國家那我們要仰賴這一些天然氣也好燃煤也好但是還有另外一個選項是核能我們也可以仰賴核能 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10498.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10505.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以剛剛你自己也主動提到了這個我們鄰近的日韓因為中東的形勢燃煤它可能必須是保留的選項但是我們之前我們的政府很大膽這個完全要非核家園核電歸零 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10513.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10530.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那這個不是一個很躁勁的能源配比嗎那如果依你剛剛所說的現在加上全球的這樣的一個能源動蕩加上我們如何去減煤如何是確保這個空品的品質一樣是我們的目標那核能應該是一個好的選擇不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10532.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10551.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
如果照委員的這個建議的話其實目前台電也照這個程序在進行當中所以這個核能重啟核三的核能重啟我記得在委員會的時候一開始的時候問你你其實是傾向不支持的所以你現在也支持基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10552.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10572.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們是按照這個政策那其實台電台電也正式申請了這個那我們是尊重當然對於核能來說的話如果有他可以對金鈴碳排有幫助我們當然會支持但是這個還是要核廢有解他當然對於金鈴碳排有幫助因為他還是基本上還是一個核安的一個問題要必須得到確認是不是請金鈴 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10572.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10600.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以現在你們也支持嗎來經濟部我也問經濟部現在核酸的重啟你們是不是也是希望它可以如期的重啟減輕你們能源的壓力發電的壓力基本上對於核能的問題我們還是三個原則核安無虞核廢有解社會有共識的情況之下那剛剛委員所詢問的核酸的再運轉我們依照新通過的核安法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10601.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10619.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
由台電公司提出再運轉的計畫由獨立的核安會進行專業審查以經濟部而言的話我們認為安全非常的重要所以我們非常的尊重台電公司的專業的一個檢查還有核安會的一個獨立的一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10620.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10649.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好那所以經濟部我可以問你嗎就是我們的能源配比原來我們是燃氣50%燃煤30%再生能源20%現在核酸其實是順利的話它一定是會重新運轉那所以在這樣子之後加上你們未來希望有一些是新核能你們也願意去採用你們有沒有討論過重新規劃以後的這一個能源的配比到底是多少你現在有答案了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10651.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10678.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
第一個跟委員說明我們經濟部本身我們就有一個電力可靠度的一個審查而且我們每年針對於未來往後的十年你剛剛委員所詢問的這個部分我們會做一個滾動式的檢討你們現在檢討的情況是什麼應該做出修正了吧因為核電沒有歸零已經回來了啊那燃煤大家都覺得它不應該佔比這麼高啊所以你們重新修正的大概是什麼比例有一些是在程序中的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10679.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10703.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那當然我們針對未來的時間甚至是這幾年的即時的需求我們必須要很務實的去看它實際可上線的在這邊也跟各位委員報告這邊提到的所謂的再生能源全球的所有的高科技的一個產業它都在追求所謂的再生能源我們也看到不管是國際能源總署的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10703.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10723.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
因為我們都沒有反對我現在在問你的是說因為如果我們今天討論的是空品嘛對不對大家都知道燃煤是對空品的傷害是最高的那未來你現在核電也要回來了所以你重新調整之後你的能源配比會是什麼燃煤你預計要降多少核能要增多少你們沒有一個討論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10726.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10752.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
基本上這個你們沒有一個大方向的討論我們針對真實有發生的這個事情假設性的問題的話我們還要看當時的一個不管是何過的狀況這不是假設性我現在的意思是原來你是會設定目標的對不對燃氣50是你的目標燃煤30你原來能源配比是這樣嘛那現在顯然核3它已經進入到程序我想它後續的程序走應該也很順沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10753.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10777.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
然後核三再回來加上你未來要有新式的核能難道你們沒有重新去討論我們未來的能源配比做一些修正嗎他現在在程序中做一個適宜性的專業的一個審查但是就你的能源選項不能缺少核能的吧我們這個不能預設沒有 卓院長也已經說了未來要用新式的核能啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10777.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10786.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以我的意思是說核能必須是你的能源選項之一了吧你們到現在經濟部還是要反對嗎所以你們沒有去算過做什麼事情都要有一個計畫嘛就像你剛剛講的未來十年的目標你現在的能源配比顯然燃煤比例那麼高燃氣比例那麼高大家都想說有國安問題最近大家都說國安問題對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10802.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10831.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那你重新在這些新的一些因素加進來之後我覺得經濟部你們的思考應該是要有未來十年的思考從現在開始你應該去調整你的能源佔比跟目標嗎這件事情應該是非常清晰的所以核電不應該是你排除的嗎剛剛台電總副總已經說明了非常清楚這是第一個那第二個的話我們在淨零的路徑上面去年國發會也發佈了一些淨零 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10831.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10850.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
的一個路徑圖我們現在是依照這個路徑圖在執行之中所以你的能源配比要不要調整能源配比我剛剛跟委員說明的我們每年會在動態調整那你今年會調整成什麼樣的比例在動態當中你會修正成是什麼樣的比例因為今年現在時間還沒有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10851.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10870.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
到時候我們要看我們要看這個今年最後檢討出來各種的能源它的分布的一個情形然後運轉的情形我們再來這個賴市長我要提醒你經濟部做事應該是要五到十年的眼光一定會有絕對不是且戰且走 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10871.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10892.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就像我們現在這個民進黨執政之後對於核能就是通通一下子是要非核家園一下子又覺得電不夠現在再來走重啟這樣是不對的就是你對於一個能源核電我沒有說它百分之百的好但是它也不可能在台灣我們現在有能力去排除就像剛剛部長的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10893.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10910.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
燃煤我們厭惡它但是燃煤在台灣現在也是沒有辦法百分之百的排除這都是現實所以我希望你們務實一點的看待能源而且提出一個合理的可以對我們的空品其實是有助於 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10910.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10931.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們的這個空瓶所以燃煤的比例應該要下降那核電的部分也應該要讓它維持是一個選項我想經濟部的態度應該要很清楚不需要在這邊就是講官話沒有講官話第一個這個台電公司身為一個執行單位它必須依法來接受相關的獨立單位的一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10931.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10955.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
當然但是政策之前是你們下的非核家園是你們下的政治責任是你們要負的不用歸給台電台電沒有這樣的責任是經濟部跟行政院做錯了能源的決定之前的非核家園它就是一個錯誤的政策那現在島政回來我覺得很好大家就務實的看待不要對於核電有一些莫須有的罪名然後覺得說這個不用核電才是人 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10959.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10972.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
不要用這種政治意識形態我只希望大家回到一個很務實的我們理性的看待我們的能源而且更重要的是我們今天是空汙的議題未來燃煤的比例一定要下降好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員的諮詢現在請廖偉祥委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10991.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11015.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
謝謝主席 先請彭部長請彭部長部長好部長好部長我想要先請教依據我國的空氣污染防治法的第五條跟第六條的規定這個三級防治區白話文就是空品不達標區就是空氣品質不好的地方要求是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11017.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11045.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我現在條文是不是請我們市長有沒有條文好沒關係我跟部長說基本上五條和六條意思就是說要讓空污要減量那在這個防治區裡面呢空氣品質未達國家標準必須要採取較嚴格的污染管制措施然後五六條是連動的譬如說就是要要求一定規模者應該採取最低可達成的排放率控制技術好那再來我想要請問一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11046.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11074.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
雲林縣目前在PM10 PM2.5跟臭氧等項目上是不是屬於三級的防治區是是嗎對那麥寮電廠是不是屬於三級防治區的寄存污染源是是嗎是是不是是好那我就要再請教基本環境基本法的第三條題集第三條題集如果經濟對環境有不良影響之餘者應該以何者優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11077.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11103.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
環境保護以環境為優先嘛所以我現在PowerPoint也有給你看好那最後我就請教一下針對2026年的4月份這個經濟部責成台電短期調度民營賣寮電廠一號與三號燃煤機組執行為期三個月的發電任務那雲林縣本身是列為三級的防治區而且台大公衛研究也指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11104.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11116.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
六清周邊的高曝露組包含台西麥寮居民癌症的發生率為其他雲林鄉鎮的1.29倍在這裡1.29倍所以已經符合所謂的環境經濟對於環境有不良影響以環境優先且空污不達標區寄存的固定污染源應該減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11129.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11158.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那如今要重啟這個機組請問一下環境部的立場是什麼這個事情我們當聽到消息的時候我們有請經濟部跟台電公司要審慎評估它重啟的必要性還有它的時機啦那如果有啟動的話那我們當然會責成地方的環保主管機關就是雲林縣環保局然後嚴密的監督它空污排放的數據因為目前來說的話據我所知他們有承諾一個量例如說它全年總用的量所以你的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11158.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11175.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
是說你們會嚴格監督這樣是嚴格監督那怎麼嚴格監督第一個是他不能超過例如說他們當然有嚴重空污的時候他應該要優先把它剪下來然後第二個是他如果說超多排的話但是部長這個我們前面有講了這幾個法條這個態度會不會是太太 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11179.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11190.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
不太屬於環境部應該有的立場你是不是應該要更因為剛剛已經講到你的經濟迫害這環境那這個也是三級的防治區這個你的態度是不是應該要再 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11191.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11220.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
基本上這個問題我舉例我禮拜一在日本的時候也跟幾個他們講過其實大家的問題就是說遇到一個挑戰就是整個中東的這個戰事的危機這個可能的能源的這個要多一點這個游刃有餘的一個方式所以我們也體會到這一點但是我剛剛前面這個環境基本法第三條不就是說如果經濟經濟的發展也讓環境受到迫害的話環境應該優先嘛所以我要提的不是單一事件部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11221.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11246.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這個路透也報導這個卡達的LNG的設施受攻擊後約17%的出口產能受到影響而且它修復需要3到5年這對於我們未來可以預期現在政府一定會像你剛剛說的這些理由去重啟所謂的燃煤發電機組的可能性是很高的那今天賣寮發生了這樣的事明天也有可能是其他的發電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11247.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11266.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那事實上過去也不曾真正的去思考也不曾遇到這個火力發電廠重啟的問題所以我去問了一下你們環境部相關的一直沒有所謂相關的評估或重啟程序的依據那現在就會變成是經濟部想要重啟會需不需要問過環境部的意見你的意見他們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11268.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11296.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
就是他會理你嗎你有沒有什麼相關的約束力因為他的這個現在他2號已經關掉了1號跟3號他的許可期是可以到117年6月跟到116年12月也就是最快一張是到明年的12月所以他現在呢而且他現在的使用的時間只有三個月就是夏天那夏天的情況下其實對於我們這個雨下的比較多所以對於環境的影響部長你是環境部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11297.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11317.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
你怎麼一直在幫他解釋我沒有幫他解釋我只是想問說這樣子重啟的狀況他有沒有需要問你那你有沒有知情有沒有需要被查你有沒有任何的手段可以去好好的保護百姓保護這個環境因為會問這個事情是因為其實去年監察院去年的監察院就已經有糾正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11318.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11334.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
麥寮的一號燃煤機組研議案整體的作業不合程序倉促混亂研議理由未服事實又經濟部沒有評估政府承諾跳票的爭議更沒有跟地區的居民充分溝通因此要求政府相關部門改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11335.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11361.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那過去呢我們有合理的能源規劃所以可能過去也沒有想到重啟的問題那也一直不認為是會發生的事情但是麥寮一號機組原定是2024年的5月31號正式除役然而在合約到期的前夕台電公司跟經濟部又迅速的核准他延役至2025年的12月31號那他合約的修改簽合也只用了一天那今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11362.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11390.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
今天經濟部又一指的行政命令就要在麥寮重啟5月到7月要重啟發電那部長我想這個事情已經不是單純的一次性的能源調度而且連去年被監察院糾正程序倉促後今年的重啟案又重蹈覆轍依舊是程序倉促溝通不足請問環境部至今有沒有收到任何的任務你在這件事情裡面你的角色到底是什麼有沒有被要求說提出環境影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11391.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11397.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
空污排放或者居民健康風險或替代調度方案的意見還是整件事情其實經濟部講就好了你們就是看到新聞知道說那我會嚴格監督監測就被動的背書請問一下你這部分你有沒有想過 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11406.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11435.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個部分按照現在的法規裡面是經濟部他提出這個計畫他要獲得雲林縣政府的同意的許可所以雲林縣政府是有條件的同意那當然啦我們事後也知道這樣的一個情況不過呢他其實當時他們的協議裡面我們也知道說他的用煤量要受到嚴格的控管不能超過114年當年停機前的一個水準部長你現在的這個論述就很像是你知道這件事情但是主要是經濟部跟地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11436.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11453.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
環境部的角色我們的角色就是希望說他們在這個要把這個重啟的必要性跟這個他的這個時機然後他如果有空污的影響的話其實一定要把它降到最低這是我們的工作部長我想今天經濟部的作為跟你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11454.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11475.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
剛剛我講到的空氣污染防治法跟環境基本法都有衝突啊我從開中銘我前面幾題就已經問到那你們作為主管機關你們沒有做出任何的動作也任由這樣子經濟部這樣子一指命令就蹂躪說這個立法院通過而且是你們環境部主管的法條啊所以我們希望你應該更有態度而且你應該去執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11476.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11497.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
你應該要去強硬的執行這些法條啊所以部長我知道你剛剛有講啊你說這個有可能有什麼許可範圍內啊沒有立即違法的問題但是我想環評這件事情你有沒有需要去環評有沒有需要去思考說他重啟的話因為這個麥寮電廠也是25年前的老舊的燃煤機組啊所以他對於環境的影響到底是什麼然後對於這個當時的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11501.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11514.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
環境背景跟現在我們的淨零碳排的目標也完全不同那現在這幾年也有這個所謂的淨零排放為主流的概念所以你現在也欠缺明確的法令依據所以你好像沒有任何的角色可以做是不是就是目前以法條來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11516.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11537.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
基本上當然我們是希望是說能夠減少越少越好但是基本上現在有一個這個中東戰爭的一個危機的事件那經濟部有這樣的需求他們必須要做好該有的一個溝通那我們是做好空氣品質還有各種的數據的一個監督跟檢查部長其實現在就是重啟其實是欠缺明確的法令依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11538.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11560.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
然後呢也會跟現行的空污法以及環境基本法有衝突的地方那請教一下部長那經濟部用緊急採購就可以凌駕空污法跟環境基本法嗎那環境部是不是應該跟經濟部商討修改電業法增加未來的授權的依據然後呢在這個重啟的過程中你們到底要做到哪些事情是不是應該要去討論這個我們會來研議一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11564.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11586.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個不能只有研議啦部長這個是很重要的事情因為一定我剛剛已經講到現在你們說各國可能有面臨到相關的問題那但是各國環境部環境上面的角色是什麼要不要再做一個很嚴格的幫人民把關幫環境把關因為會導致所以另外就是會導致致癌的一級的這個致癌物啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11588.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11605.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個本病皮在賣電環評的時候並沒有被納入完整的空氣品質跟健康風險管理的框架那這個東西在歐盟也在2004年他就有納管所以我國也至今還沒有針對這個本病皮制定相關的排放標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11606.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11618.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以我想要強調的事情這個環境的評估不是一核定就是終身應該你們要去適時的介入滾動的調整而且針對這些淨零碳排無煤加原為主流倉儀的現在應該要有更嚴謹的檢核機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11622.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11643.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以要請環境部在過程中要具備監督者的立場要幫我們的環境幫我們下一代把關所以我想要請問所以第一環境部是不是要去討論一級致癌物這個本病皮未來有沒有規劃納入環境影響評估或者是空氣污染排放標準的規定範疇這是第一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11644.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11672.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
然後第二件事是針對重啟的機組你應該要重啟的相關的評估以及健康風險空污監測的分析報告在重啟後也要提出一份環境影響的回顧評估告訴國人這段時間對於環境的影響也確保人民知情跟監督的權利可不可以好第二項的部分我們會來研究說怎麼樣的去做表達那第一項的部分的話就有關那個環境中 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11674.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11693.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
BAP的部分我沒有在做監測但是有關排放標準的部分還是要看各國目前現在的排放的監測技術跟方法我們會後續來評估那我問你歐盟說在2004年就納管了那我們咧你有沒有去了解和研究因為目前納管了應該也是會有相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11694.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11722.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
因為那個方法還是要轉回我們國家的標準方法另外一個就是那你有去研究過嗎你有去了解過嗎我們有去了解但是美國目前沒有這樣的一個排放標準那歐盟呢你怎麼選一個選一個好像你覺得沒有因為我們會綜合評估各國的這個情況那當然越完整對我們標準是越好那你現在決定要不要去你有去研議過了嗎我們會來做後續的研議所以前面有做過研議我們有先做環境中的監測那你們現在覺得要做要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11723.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11739.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
因為這個監測也要看他對應的可行的技術跟可行的評估方法這所以我們後續會來做評估那你可不可以這個本席給本席辦公室一個月的時間給我們報告可以可以嗎針對這個這個部分這個一級致癌物納入我們的範疇好還有第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11741.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11760.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
部長第二個這個部分你可以答應嗎這個我們會來做該有的這個風險性的評估因為這個也需要一些時間做大氣擴散的模擬還有它的排放多少的量所以這個我們應該要趕快先開會去討論它現在重啟的過程中你到底要扮演什麼角色要做哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11762.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11772.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這部分是不是也可以請部長在一個月內給本席辦公室這個如果要做一個模擬調查的話可能真的需要一兩個月的時間因為這個需要專業的團隊去一個月的時間你至少要有初步的你的哪些節點要去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11779.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11799.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
然後前中後你要做什麼事情你要做到什麼監督這應該也不用那麼久吧應該一個月至少可以吧就是說整個到完整的一個答案或是一個方法可能要花到兩到三個月當然不是完整你得先有流程你才可以細細做嘛可以可以是不是因為問這件事情是不是只有這個賣寮的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11801.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11818.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
興達的電廠也有老舊機組研議的問題然後呢剛剛也有討論到台中還有燃煤機組未拆但是呢我們立法院也已經通過2028的無煤中火相關決議那2050的淨零也已經是國家政策方向所以現在的問題就是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11819.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11847.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
從賣掉的案件看到只要中央說供電韌性能源安全為理由老舊的燃煤機組就可能被重新的調度地方政府若核准操作許可污染的壓力地方扛那如果你不核准又可能被說說影響供電這就是今天的這樣的狀況所以要請教部長未來針對已經除役年限卻又因為供電理由延逸備轉或短期調度的老舊燃煤機組 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11848.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11864.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
你應該要建立一套最低的環境檢核機制而且你至少應該也要要求排放增量評估健康風險的檢核以及替代調度方案跟與居民溝通的紀錄你是不是應該要要求這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11865.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11891.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這個我們會來研議啦因為這些在蓋之前齁他其實都有做過環境影響評估那現在呢又一個新的一個局勢我們會來研究一下我想蓋之前是20幾年前了欸對啊那到現在已經差了這麼多所以你現在的角色應該要積極的介入啦但是因為這個到底是他們適用於哪一個法規然後什麼樣的條件我們可以來監督我們會來研議一下所以我現在問起來就是我今天整個質詢就是我知道你們根本就沒有準備啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11892.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11909.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我也問過你們環境部你們現在目前就是沒有沒有這些東西所以我才要告訴你你是不是要願意研議一下燃煤發電退場的時程或是透過剛剛講的修法你要去了解修法專法或者是給地方政府更明確的環境把關的依據這個就是我今天整個主題要告訴你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11910.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11934.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
也報告委員這個其實是一個突發的中東的局勢的這個影響沒有人想到的所以這個各國都因應這個突發的一個事情其實部長也不是這樣子喔部長也不是這樣子之前在還沒中東戰爭之前我們已經多次講過我們的能源是有問題能源配比是有國安問題的那你當初有這個國安問題我們也一直在堅持就是說為什麼你老舊的燃煤基礎要拆掉就是因為擔心你 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11935.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11957.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
到時候又說供電有問題然後要有任性然後就把老舊機組再重新啟動所以部長這不是今天的問題啊部長我相信以你的這個專業和關心環境的一個態度你應該更積極有作為因為這個事情真的不是臨時發生的我們之前已經多次的從2024年本席上任以來已經講過很多次這個能源配比的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11958.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11981.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
影響到環境的問題當然這個是必須我們要跟經濟部一起來討論來面對這個事情但是我們現在這個法規如何設在哪裡做檢核的我們的確要內部要做一些跨部會的討論部長所以我跟你說調度能源是經濟部的權責可是環境部的責任就是要幫我們把關環境和空污所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11982.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11995.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以這個就是跟剛剛的一樣是一個月內要給本席一個檢討報告嗎?初步的檢討報告,謝謝最後我想要請一下次長還有我們剛剛的能源應該是能源署的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12002.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12028.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
最後還是要請教一下剛剛上一位我們王玉明委員在質詢的時候有問到這個老舊的一號二號中火的部分你們確定年底會把它拆除我們當新一號基礎然後上線了之後我們開始年底之後開始做這個作業就是把老舊的會拆除確定你們可以承諾啟動啟動那多久啟動之後要多久才會完全拆除拆除的時間可能一到 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12030.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12056.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
一到兩年左右的時間2027年底可以完成拆除一年嗎 因為你今年2026年底開始我們希望說在28年底之前28年底之前那就是因為我們還要拆一個煙囪那個煙囪的話它相當的高那這個必須要有一些安全的問題要去處理所以你承諾要2028年前要把它拆除完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12058.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12077.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
2028年前你說2028年底前所以你現在說2028年底前我們現在是希望說在2028年底之前把它完成那當然拆除的這個時間如果是可以更順利的話那當然可以提早好那我要請次長承諾一定要做到好不好好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12081.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12087.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
謝謝廖委想委員的諮詢重新宣告我們休息20分鐘用餐休息後繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12103.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12105.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12146.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12157.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12167.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12167.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
蕃茄 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12188.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12204.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
你看看 坐著坐 看是這麼的 變色了的素對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12212.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12213.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
你看今天的資料為了他 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12235.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12247.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
這裏是一間餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12259.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12266.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
哇好寬鬆喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12290.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12291.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
這張照片是在2013年10月1日拍攝的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12310.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12311.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
鮮奶油 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12340.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12364.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
三号档 三号档的语境很明显就是那个同二组的小组 四组的同二组的最高限的组织 它是很明显的然后它到底是什么样子 它那个是个龙女的语言它是很明显的 这边比较不明显然后我们看一遍 然后我们拿着龙女的语言然后我们看一遍 然后我们拿着龙女的语言 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12364.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12367.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12390.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12403.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我自己看的時候,我自己也是怕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12408.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12421.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
後來才看到新的,因為我們禮拜天是同一天,然後禮拜天很好,禮拜天比較弄好,因為禮拜天已經算十兩天了,所以那時候看完 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12425.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12426.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
嗨,嗨,嗨,嗨 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12452.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12466.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
他們在地上?對,有可能他們來不及,我也很生氣,因為我還在這裡對,好,那我來我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我來,我 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12478.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12482.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
你還是一定要弄好蒜啊 不然太熱你吃那麼蒜 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12485.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12498.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
他就讓咱們吃的比較好他就讓咱們吃的比較好他就讓咱們吃的比較好他就讓咱們吃的比較好他就讓咱們吃的比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12515.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12521.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們家的,我們的立場地,那些立場地都會治療,對不對?對,對,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12535.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12537.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那個謝謝那個12點幾那個我下個禮拜會請他來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12564.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12576.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我會找人家去診斷真的對,我發生什麼事情才就會來診斷為什麼我發生什麼事情才會來診斷他說你囉,我來經過人家診斷的時候我都還是會診斷我自己的我發生什麼事情才會來診斷我到現在20年沒了診斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12586.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12592.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
後來是兩歲,現在是跟他沒有,因為他們加班之後不認他 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12609.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12622 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
丟臉丟屎阿你是那種阿你是阿你趕快問一下阿對阿就碰到的話可以跟不是阿有些很好笑可是他那個是那個什麼阿我知道啦這幾乎就是那個水啦水 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12635.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12652.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
大家第一集的事情啊,他們的日子,我都同意了沒有叫他,叫他跟我們分享啊,當你快樂啊,可是沒有叫他盤嘴,沒有喃嘻,他不是,你去看視訊,他應該去看視訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12659.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12666.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
他們現在就是信服只要連在自己的眼前,其他的就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12677.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12685.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我昨天跟Amy說我有碰到看她的口腔痠痠但是她Amy就說她今天可能來不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12693.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12709.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
才在被制裁的美國人心裡看得很緊張這樣今天就到今天好像只到兩點半了兩點半還會啊對啊那你開放也沒遷到啊沒有啊他說兩點半之前到都可以好啊好 謝謝好啦 邊看好 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12726.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12728.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個現在應該考慮的還蠻好看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12743.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12753.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這本書是昨天下午寫的,昨天寫到八點,昨天八點就不想辦,因為八點半的時間就不想辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12763.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12783.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
恭喜你啊,哈囉不然勒,你今天是在問反正對啊他說那是怎麼回事,發汗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12789.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12806.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
有啊,她在跟我們,她說你幫她上廁所一好了嗨,嗨,還是陪你玩還陪都好 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12809.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12815.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
這可是我小時候的問題來就趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12832.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12842.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我們以前吃的時候才會太涼快 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12844.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12847.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我們小時候吃大約兩塊然後我接著要吃大約三塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12873.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12886.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳。這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12894.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12896.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我好像有什麼要講? |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12921.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12943.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
就是你自己愛吃的那個他明天就沒願意找你了怎麼了?他明天就沒願意找你了明天?為什麼?他明天就沒願意找你了真的還假的? |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12950.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12953.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那怎麼辦 當作不是商人來找我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12969.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12983.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
他好像是一個多名人物 那個好玩 看著他多愛吃那他很認真 說他很愛吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12990.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13002.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
在今天夜拍攝的時候要到處拍攝嗎?要到處拍攝嗎?對呀,今天拍攝的時候拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢?拍什麼呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13009.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13036.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
你每次都沒有生氣然後我喜歡死女兒也愛死人類似像我我就給她剪掉灰頭髮就不太合適因為她喜歡死嘛因為她已經變大了好看的女人啊對啊不管她怎麼亂死反正到時候再說嘛對啊這麼多年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13038.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13039.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這位公主 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13064.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13076.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13083.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13105.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
你有聽到嗎有聽到我跟他講很清楚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13111.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13120.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的一間餐廳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13139.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13140.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
其實我應該先放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13299.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13319.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
繼續開會現在請臨時分委員質詢現在主席 是不是請我們彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13324.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13335.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
林委員好部長我先講一下這個關於修法的案子我剛才早上已經講了中央如果管得不好的話其實是應該要檢討也的確是可以檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13341.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13360.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
但是我自己一貫這30年從事環保運動的時候一直就是認為說地方政府可以上下其手的空間特別容易受到地方的惡勢力或是民代操作那的確是一個大問題那特別是我地方的民代、議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13363.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13381.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
本身參與事業廢棄物焚化爐的投資的興建的也很多像新竹維利大家都知道現在大家高度關注的陳建賢議長事實上這個事業廢棄物焚化爐的排用公司漢陽科技操作的那大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13382.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13405.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
地方政府敢管嗎 而地方議長對於地方政府有沒有高度的前置的權力 這個都是無庸置疑的所以地方議長經營的 或是黑道跟議員經營的這種污染 地方政府是管不動 也不敢管的所以把權力下放下去以後真的是滋事體大有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13408.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13420.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這些民代經營的不敢管 然後你能夠管的就對公部門而已或者是不好說啦 像傅坤祺在擔任花蓮縣長期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13423.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13430.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那自行以空氣污染源許可證展延逾期為理由就威脅要業者繳很多錢嗎他們的訴訟我們不管其實就是一樣白道也是要錢啦不給錢的話就不給他執照啦你說那是為了空氣污染嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13441.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13451.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
他就是為了要錢大家都知道所以是當時的那個靜州刊在2025年4月底取得的錄音檔環保局局長就當場跟業者說你們的空屋操作許可執照已經預期了我們可以馬上就叫你們停工然後這個秘書長花蓮縣政府的秘書長就威脅業者說不要因小失大啦然後那個副縣長就說想拿回稅金不可能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13470.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13495.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
台迷、亞迷都已經乖乖配合了你們還是趕快給錢啦所以給錢就可以有執照連地方政府的都可以這樣操作所以我是覺得這個是修法齁這個要知識提大要小心啦齁那另外許可證只給兩年兩年到了就要再申請一次兩年到了就要申請一次大家都不用做事情啊夾子也不用做事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13498.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13506.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
行政官員公務員也不用做事情大家一年多就要再來行政就要再去審查每天都為了行政程序在那邊跑所以這樣的許可只能兩年這個東西合理嗎我是覺得很擔憂好但我今天不是要跟你講這個我想我長期關心空氣污染那我要跟你討論就是空污費增了30年了那為什麼臭氧的問題始終無解布少你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13528.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13549.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
最主要是說第一個是說我們現在VOC的問題還有NOx的問題兩個混合經過大氣的傳送其實VOC我們過去管的可能還不夠然後甚至還有一個就是說我們的那個氮氧化物的確是有在增加的現象所以造成說這個光化反應的這個問題這個是我們未來關注的一個焦點 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13550.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13561.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
你講的我恐怕不知道是不是正確的因為你108年到113年固定污染源的空污費的排放量跟全國77個空品測站監測濃度的比較的結果你們自己環境部的報告顯示這個SOX排放量降低約39%大氣的平均濃度降了48%這個硫氧化物那你剛剛講的這個氮氧化物 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13576.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13588.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
它整體也是微幅下降趨勢啦也是有在下降啦但是呢關鍵不是在那裡但我是要跟你講說臭氧前驅物你剛才講的VOVOCS了它其實也下降了26%26%所以關鍵不是你講那幾個它們都在下降啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13596.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13612.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
但是我們那個大氣的光化反應隨著這個氣候變遷溫度的上升其實目前來說的話還有各種其他的這個污染源沒有管得到那我告訴你啦你沒有管的是什麼我剛剛講VOC排放量下降26但臭氧濃度都沒有明顯的改善是 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13613.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13619.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
這個臭氧濃度才是關鍵空污費增了30年但臭氧問題是最關鍵臭氧問題的最關鍵中的最關鍵叫做臭氧問題的前驅物質環境部從來沒有課過一塊錢沒有課到一塊錢啦沒有啦第二個空污費減免辦法公告了17年累積了193件的核發案件你的減免減免給他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13642.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13659.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
然後他從來沒有建立 你們行政部門從來沒有建立任何事後去查驗機制來確定你減免價他不用繳錢了是不是真的有減量 不知道你們這兩個機制是大問題啦所以我今天就直接開門見山跟你講我要討論這兩個問題那臭氧就是國內空氣品質長期無法突破的瓶頸 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13670.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13695.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
而且你們自己在政策面還要將臭氧8小時紅色警示站的日數改善80%名列為核心的目標跟PM2.5平均濃度並列所以你知道你們都看到問題了臭氧 臭氧濃度臭氧濃度從來都沒有改善過那我們就根據你們自己的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13697.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13717.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
就是說環境部的報告委託團隊運用美國環保署建置的最大增量反應性資料分析環境部11個光化策站還有國內3個特殊工業區的策站監測54項這個揮發性就VOCS的個別物種結果明確的你們自己的報告指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13725.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13754.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
就是乙烯丙烯甲本及二甲本為國內臭氧生成潛勢較高的關鍵物種而你們也進一步分析說現行乙烯丙烯都沒有納入空污廢的徵收所以從原料產品燃料及廢氣燃燒塔監測的資訊你們也去初步認為乙烯丙烯其實就簡單的講就是大財團在 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13755.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13772.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
在排放的比較多啦,就是石化業者啦說比較簡單的就是石化業者所製造排放的乙烯跟丙烯啦那根據美國的MIR值啊他去測國內的特殊性的工業區的測站不管是六清、陵園還有臨海監測站27個站 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13778.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13806.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
11個官化策戰監測的54個VOCS的個別物種都顯示乙烯丙烯甲苯二甲苯為國內臭氧生成潛勢較高的物種講白話一點臭氧生成潛勢最高這四個物種就是兩個有扣空污費了有兩個沒有就是大財團經營的石化業乙烯丙烯那在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13808.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13809.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
報告裡面也講出了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13811.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13838.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
政策的缺口你們報告寫出了令人覺得匪夷所思的建議的處置他說 你們自己的報告匪夷所思啦 我認為不合理 我不會說的啦但是他也是感謝啦 第一他說現階段並沒有徵收高臭氧前四物種的案例這騙人的 這國國就有 不要說沒有 美國就有啊第二 尚缺乏污染源排放資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13839.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13866.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
所以建議更多污染源排放資料研究後再行評估收費的可行性阿你自己這份報告保證你稍微講一下感情真的沒資料沒有國內污染源的排放資料嗎我剛剛講六清臨源臨海監測站這些都沒排放資料嗎好 報告委員因為我沒有看到這份報告是不是請我們市長來報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13868.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13890.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
跟委員報告有關那個乙烯丙烯的部分的確我們在報告裡面也指出它是可能是高臭氧淺式的一個物種所以我們其實有在討論要把它納入空肺還有含酸的排放這的確我們最近有在討論要納入那至於它的排放現況的確過去的調查是比較不足這也跟委員報告的確是這樣來博電我告訴你你書中都亂說啦亂說啦這個排放資料非常的充足啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13899.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13927.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
缺乏排放資料你們認為你們都講了石化業是可能的排放對象我再講一次喔臭氧的濃度都沒有改善臭氧是空氣污染最大的關鍵而乙烯丙烯甲苯這個是臭氧前去物最關鍵的物質有兩種沒有課稅沒有課費你們也知道了那我現在告訴你就這麼幾個地方集中在高雄林園大社仁武六清 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13929.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13933.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這幾個區域公司場所的清澈一清二楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13935.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13958.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這幾個地方你想要掌握資料你就依空污防治法第21條要求業者申報然後在1、2、12條進行稽查這還需要研究什麼空污法第16條第一項規定各級主管機關得對排放空氣污染物的固定污染源及移動污染源徵收空污費碼第17條講說這個中央主管機關訂定收費的這個費率 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13964.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13981.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那你們第三條空屋費的房子費的收費辦法第三條名列收費的物種所以你們在112年10月剛修正公告綠與稀還有一三丁二稀還有丙稀精三個個別物種增列了 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13981.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14001.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那你們第二期合訂的第二期方案就講說臭氧8小時紅色警示站改善80%列為最重要的這個改善政策如果你的政策目標是改善臭氧工具卻完全迴避關鍵的污染源這也不對嘛所以你再怎麼樣去改善你的臭氧的這一個減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14005.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14017.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那你就要從他的前去物質開始著手而剛剛講說你們研議要收費以息比息收費那你現在告訴我們政策上到底會不會收包委我們這個趕快來研議一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14019.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14035.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
對啊 要不要 研議要研議多久 都知道了排放物質 叫這些業者申報就那幾個地方而已嘛 六清嘛 林園大社 仁武嘛你先這個大戶先盤點一下就知道了盤點一下就知道量了 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14039.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14056.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
這應該很容易吧 這一個月就盤點出來了一個月盤點出來以後就知道要課費了吧我們趕快來處理這件事情所以我現在再跟你就教一個就是說你們我剛剛講的說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14062.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14070.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
空污絕免辦法17年沒有修年均12件申請而且核發後不查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14072.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14101.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
你們這樣子的狀況你們自己也有報告也有指出啊減免辦法到現在至今17年平均年申請12件薄回率33%其中購置成本減免194件耗材費用減免9件而已所以都用我購置新的設備可以減少空屋排放量可以減少可是我們現在問題就是說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14104.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14125.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
你們現行業者在使用減免額度期間沒有相關驗證的機制導致無法確保操作的防治設備處理效率是不是符合他們申請的時候的核定的操作條件換句話說你們的報告也指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14127.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14143.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
要重新檢視減免辦法現行遭遇的問題針對減量效果不彰的原因進行分析提出對應的修正的規劃使政策得以發揮最大的減量效益 你們自己報告也曾經這麼說所以我們現在講說 欸 說到白 過去17年 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14148.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14153.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
任何一家公司場所只要通過減免辦法的你們的事前審查就取得了減免減免他空屋費的額度然後就開始抵扣了但是你們環境部從來沒有去回頭查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14165.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14188.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這些申請減免抵扣的廠商他們裝設 號稱要去買新的防治設備這個防治設備有沒有正常運作有沒有達到當時承諾時的處理效率現在部長 環境部長如果對過去已經核發的減免案件進行追溯性的查核呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14189.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14212.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
現在這是問題啊 保廣你承不承認這樣是有問題的聽起來我是有問題 但是我也會去看一下委員提到的那個報告的確啦 這個都是根據你們報告講的包委員 過去的那個查核因為審查是地方審查 所以有地方會去做查核那申請的案件的確不多 去年就是一年大概12件地方政府有沒有在查核啦地方政府會有那麼多人力可以查核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14219.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14230.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
不可能啦 不能查核啦如果你們現在開始去追溯查核喔專案喔如果查核發現實際處理的效率不符合申請的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14231.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14252.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那請問環境部 你有沒有既有截免案件啟動追溯查核以外 並依截免辦法及相關法制機制辦理撤銷追繳和補繳的機制 有沒有機制是 如果查核到它是不實的話 我們當然可以追繳回來什麼叫不實 它沒有在使用 買一買沒有在用啦 因為成本太高啦這樣這不是不實耶 這是沒利用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14256.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14273.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
他跟他原來提出的那個內容不一致啊內容不一致那可不可以追要求重新追繳補繳可以嗎可以啊你們要不要專案去查一年才12件17年來申請了這個多少件194加9203件17年來才203件所以203件專案審查可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14286.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14305.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們專案來做這個調查專案去做調查好到時候要追繳補繳喔好 保定你要承諾啊可以我們來這個做這件事情因為委員說到的可能是一個未來治理的一個很大的這個我們目前如果說這個是確定是一個漏洞的話我們的確就是漏洞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14306.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14326.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
和你來申請衛生紙幣可以抵減免得交空務費可以扣掉這樣到底有在用紙幣嗎 紙幣有在操作嗎可以操作嗎 不知道到底排放量有沒有減少 不知道我們現在把人站起來 他們站起來把人說嘛大家都走這條路要怎麼辦專案查核好 謝謝委員謝謝李曙芬委員的諮詢接下來請圖謙居委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14343.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14368.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
好 謝謝主席 那請問彭部長有請彭部長部長 我們今天也是針對我們空污防治法那目的當然是為了維持我們的空氣品質維護國人的健康跟生活環境那我們台灣也在希望在2050年進行排放 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14368.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14394.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那當然最主要我們現在要做的都是減碳嘛那針對目前來講部長對於2050淨零排放有信心嗎很挑戰啊非常挑戰因為這個現在可能現在的工具都沒有辦法達到淨零碳排需要未來這幾年有新的突破所以我目前看好像很多各項的進度並沒有按照那個時程去走所以2050其實就像部長講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14396.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14421.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
不是很挑戰幾乎我看是不太容易因為它是一個還有25年要達到的目標那我們只能說現在2030、2035我們可以達到的原來設定的目標趕快往那個地方衝那我也必須說2030、2035那個目標都是登月計畫這麼的難可是我們現在如果2050年我們不下一個重視要往前做的話那現在2030、2035根本達不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14423.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14431.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
對啊所以我覺得我們在各項還是要朝著目標來前進像這個本期之前也有質詢過像我們整個環境部針對裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14433.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14452.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我覺得我們碳排最高目前最需要改善的而且不單是碳排高而且它這個也對我們民眾的健康有很大的關係那就是我們每天在路上跑的這個柴油垃圾車我們現在知道我們下垃圾車都是柴油在路上跑那它本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14453.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14482.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
它这个高碳排而且又是柴油所以它你看我们每公升柴油可以产生2.5到2.6公斤的二氧化碳那相当于我们发两度电或者燃烧0.5公斤的垃圾所产生的碳排所以这个垃圾车跟资源回收车它又是整天在我们大街小巷穿梭而且又是怠速所以那这一部分到底有没有纳入 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14484.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14501.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
規劃裡面包委員這個我們只有提到部分的事辦例如說未來電動車的比例要到多少因為現在未來財化法過後這些的工作是在地方政府垃圾車的購買是地方政府要負擔做這個事那我們前幾個禮拜我有聽我同仁跟我請我同仁跟我報告就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14502.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14530.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
未来对电动垃圾车的规划那目前的确是第一个费用太高然后我们也用了各种减碳或是增量抵换的方式算进去还是有一段的差距所以我们还在算这个到底它的财务状况是怎么样我们当然是希望说如果老旧的新购的垃圾车就可以买一些新的例如说电动的或是比较更环保的一个车那目前我们一直在收集全世界到底有没有这样一个案例不过目前也跟委员坦承还不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14531.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14544.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以我們現在要努力來做所以我們之前才用垃圾車後來好像就是為了減碳有做這個低碳垃圾車那它就是改善它的電動壓縮艙還有主要讓這個垃圾車能夠氫化 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14548.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14562.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
但是重點它還是柴油車所以還是會排放二氧化碳所以這對於我們全面淨零其實還有一大段的目標那尤其我們看我們目標2030市區公車要全面電動化2040小客車機車全面電動化那到現在其實據我們了解從2016到2026其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14577.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14579.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
看到我們在推廣這個電動車電動車好像只是幾台在試辦試用我們現在主要在改善是低碳的垃圾車從2016到2026我們看全國好像也只有1864輛大概也直到我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14600.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14615.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
全國的三成所以連低碳垃圾車我們離目標都還很遠現在大概是我們台灣到處在跑的這個垃圾車有七成還是最原始的才有垃圾車所以照我們這樣來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14616.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14638.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
不但2050淨零排放很遠連這個低碳垃圾車都還很遙遠包委員因為這個低碳垃圾車它比電動公車還距離有一段差距因為它的重量比較多然後它每天要跑大概100公里左右所以我們的確有算過目前還是關鍵在於這個裁員上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14638.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14659.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
因為目前呢包含了這個交通部現在的裁員上也遇到很大的壓力例如說公車全面電動化也遇到很大的挑戰因為現在的這個價格跟原來的燒柴油的其實是有一段的價差那這個通常過去都是用補貼的方式所以未來呢如果說要照委員的建議納入多元垃圾處理的計畫第三期的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14660.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14686.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我們可以來想辦法但是這個預算的爭取現在遇到一些很大的挑戰當然我們心裡面是期待有這樣的做法所以目前我知道說可能很難做得到所以一直不斷的跟同仁討論有沒有一些租賃的新的一個做法能夠來達成這樣的目標好那剛剛我們有講到我們這十年全國低氮垃圾車只有1800多台然後後來我們去環管署的網站我們去了解了一下它這個數據很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14688.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14705.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
113年8月底 環管署的業務上面就寫全國第一攤垃圾車有1864輛 那比例是23.6%結果在9月多 它的新聞稿又說截至8月底第一攤垃圾車只有1550輛 可是它比例變成28% |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14710.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14735.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
數量減少結果比例變大這環廣署這網站這個是不是這到底發生什麼問題啊這個我們要去了解一下因為這個它的第一單垃圾車應該指的是那個壓縮機或是它的輕斗在處理的過程當中是用電池不是用這個燒柴油來去做處理我猜它的定義就是這樣這個還是要注意一下這公布的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14738.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14747.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個車輛減少結果比例增加然後一樣我們也看了一下113年8月底說累計節省了1102萬公升的油耗然後減少31700公噸的排碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14754.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14768.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
結果九月新聞稿在發的時候又變成節省530萬公升的油耗減少14700公噸的排碳我不知道這個都是我們同單位出來的自己前後矛盾這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14770.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14786.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
叫大家到底看哪一個數據才是正確的這個我會回去了解一下再給委員正確的答案對啊希望這個部長跟環管署這部分也多加注意一下好 謝謝委員那我們現在多元垃圾處理計畫第二期有編列換購低碳垃圾車400輛總經費16億 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14790.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14816.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那這16億都有花到買這低碳垃圾車上面嗎他們就是所謂的這個這個壓縮還有這個漏斗這樣輕導著這個功能是屬於電池的所以不是用一直在柴油在運轉的因為等於不用整個柴油嘛就是它的壓縮艙的部分把它做成電動這樣子至少減少柴油的用量那這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14817.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14840.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這經費有全部用在這一方面上面嗎應該是都用在這個部分啦因為我們希望我們還是要逐步去做啦尤其針對這個垃圾車在大街小巷跑不單是清潔隊員民眾常常跟在垃圾車旁邊這個碳排這麼高對民眾的健康真的很大的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14844.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14864.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
還有我們看了一下我們市面上其實電動垃圾車的廠商其實我們看就不只一家可是我不瞭解為什麼我們環境部只有找一家特定廠商的車款在做示範連這計畫書裡面也都只有針對這一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14867.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14887.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那這個並沒有辦法去做多元而且我看它都是做6立方米我們現在市面上幾乎都是8立方米那為什麼做6立方米而且那麼多廠家為什麼只做那一家那你只做那一家它的各方面的數據是不是就變得比較狹隘那數據未必能夠完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14888.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14910.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
好謝謝我的建議因為其實前幾個禮拜我有聽他們跟我做簡報有談到這個問題那我也有下了一個指示希望說他們可以公開的讓大家提出更好的方案那如果方案對的話政府可以有一些補助來研發加速這個狀況進行因為現在的情況是我同仁報給我的數字其實電動的全面電動化的車跟這個傳統的車大概價錢大概多了一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14911.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14925.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以這個財務模式沒有辦法起來所以我要跟他們想辦法把這個差距可以縮到最小所以我們希望他可以更開放的讓大家能夠進來甚至也不必限制說只有國內的國外的如果好的也可以拿來做使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14926.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14944.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
對啊 因為據我們了解現在國外很多都是全電動的垃圾車是 已經有了然後我們那時候問我們環境部好像說什麼對電動垃圾車什麼價格太高啦還有一方面什麼它的跑這個里程能夠跑多遠等等我後來聽了好幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14945.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14972.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
外面也看了很多廠商他說這些方面他們基本上都克服並不是像環境部講的那麼的困難是委員的話我也跟我同仁講過就是說外面的這個房車電動車都比油車便宜了所以你不該給我看到一個數字這個電動的垃圾車比油車貴一倍所以我認為這個不應該這樣所以我請他們再調查所以我們擔心就是你像那麼多廠商結果我們只找一家那 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14975.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15001.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這個國際國外電動垃圾車早就已經他們都已經試營運這麼久很多早就正式上路那連我們國內據我們了解他說這些問題都可以克服結果我擔心環境部只有得到這一家的訊息那你去做試驗也只做這一家只有這一家的數據那其他的廠家都說這些都可以克服啊包含價格等等所以我希望環境部應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15002.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15027.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
多元去找更多的廠家來去試驗然後去找這些數據包含價格還有它的功能性能等等是不是應該多元化不應該狹隘我看只有一家二維我們是開放的讓多元的來解決這個問題就很像說電動車一定要有一個市場的機制讓多元的進來才可以把價格降下來我們才可以普及來做使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15027.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15045.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
好那希望部長我們針對這個部分我們找更多的規格然後延期工作報告來也希望能夠盡快朝這個目標來邁進可以可以謝謝委員的建議謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖欣局委員的質詢接下來請王振旭委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15059.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15063.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
好 謝謝主席我們還是有請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15066.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15090.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
王偉豪部長好部長今天辛苦了今天是要來審空污法本期就是空污的議題來跟您請教包括兩大的部分我們也了解早上部長提到空污的來源其實很多所以我們必須要就是真的就現況不管是從這個經濟發展的層面或者是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15091.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15111.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
人民健康的維護包括整體的對地球的維護都需要有更好的一些狀況包括我們實際的了解同時要有好的對策這樣希望能夠達到既有的目標所以要注意的地方很多不只是一般平常對學校或者是對醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15112.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15123.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
或是整體對人民造成的空污問題那今天特別要跟你討論的是港區的空污這個港區的空污也是不容忽視的一環我相信這個部長也應該會認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15126.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15146.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
基隆港跟高雄港是我國兩大的郵輪的母港自從疫情解封以來郵輪靠港的數量連續三年都有非常明顯的成長帶動很好的觀光效益我想大家都非常肯定我之前在基隆工作所以對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15147.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15168.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
當地的這個郵輪的進港有很深刻的感受真的是幫不管是對北部基隆或者是整個台北地區真的都有很好的相對的這個觀光效益可是在這個郵輪大量進出的同時其實也帶來另外一個不能夠忽視的問題就是這個港區的空氣污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15170.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15192.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
因為這個郵輪在靠港期間可能長時間會使用重油發電對周邊居民的空氣品質影響也非常的直接我相信部長也非常的關心這個部分那政府要推動2050年淨零排放的這個政策目標下港區污染不應該落後應該也是一個要處理的重點的場域我相信部長也應該非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15195.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15219.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這張幻瞪片主要就是告訴我們說通過環境部的公開的管制內容我們發現全台有10座的工商港口每一年大約會排放有4萬公噸的空氣污染物其中遠洋船舶就高達2.6萬公噸佔比差不多有66%所以是港區最主要的污染來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15219.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15238.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那關鍵原因剛剛有提到就是船舶在靠港的期間為了要維持這個艙內的這個電力跟熱能的供應引擎跟鍋爐必須要持續的運轉也就是說停在港邊又等於在排放這些我們很不喜歡去處理到這些空污的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15239.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15268.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
從右邊這張圖其實環境部也針對港區空污的管制措施做了一個四大方向的處理包括第一個就是進出港要減速要降到12節以下第二個部分就是燃油成分要限制它使用低流的燃油第三個就是要推動使用暗電第四個就是港區機具的電動化跟密閉的裝卸這些措施看起來都規劃得非常完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15269.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15282.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我相信政府也非常希望能夠把這個改善政策好好的來實施那接下來想要了解的就是這個執行的成效是否能夠達到有效的降低或是達到政策的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15285.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15310.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我們可以看得出來這個部分就是需要持續的來努力那在兩年前就有推動一個台灣岸電推動的示範計畫這個計畫應該部長也很熟悉就是環境部是依據這個淨零碳排的政策來推動船舶岸電船舶減速等措施剛剛所提到目的就是希望能夠引導港區的污染源進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15311.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15335.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
能源的轉型降低碳排變改善空氣品質來希望打造所謂的綠色港灣來跟國際接軌所以請教目前的成效在哪裡就是說針對這個高壓暗電的部分因為這個油門所需要的這個電壓是非常非常高的所以他一定要用到高壓好目前高壓的設置進度如何還有他高壓暗電的使用率狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15337.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15354.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
謝謝委員的這個垂詢第一個是我們其實幾個禮拜前才跟台灣港務公司在討論這個話題那因為他們長期因為每一隻船進來的時候如果要使用岸電的話其實它接的費用還蠻貴的我們不是像插頭插上去就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15354.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15378.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那一個都要十幾萬真的很貴然後其實上我們就希望說他們是希望我們有一些補助從空污費的一個補助那我們覺得說這個很像是一個無底洞也在算這樣的一個量因為如果我們希望空污改善要弄那就要補助非常的多那我們又沒有對船船舶收取空污費那我們也調查了這個船是不是可以收取空污費也就使用者要付費嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15379.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15407.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那目前亞洲的國家都沒有在收這個這個船的這個所謂空污費所以目前來看的話我們覺得我們有在討論這個事情就是跟保護公司是不是他可以幫我們收但是事實上他們也告訴我們要收的確很困難因為現在港跟港都在做競爭所以目前呢我們現在在朝著說我們正在重新再算一個方案因為對他們來說他們希望這個岸電的這個可以更多一點那費用就可以往下降所以我們正在談這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15407.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15426.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
是的確這個是希望能夠讓這個郵輪願意到臺灣各個港口包括基隆高雄來靠港是一個我們很希望去能夠讓這個旅遊觀光的效益可以更擴大不過剛剛部長所談到的就是這些過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15427.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15454.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
如果效益成本的話那應該怎麼去處理會比較適合不過我們可以看得出來這個數據這個基隆港在2024年靠港的這個次數有331到2025年就很快增加到436這個是成長非常的快那高雄港當然也有在成長不過就這個數量來看的話基隆港相對來講就是它的這個進出量就 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15455.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15477.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
差很多就高很多所以不管是這個污染來源的增加還有當初在預設高壓岸電的部分基隆港預計會增加一個高壓的岸電那高雄港預計在今年明年會增加四個當然高雄港有它的這個進出量 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15477.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15499.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
更大的部分不過就是針對高壓岸電的部分如果這個成長量兩邊相角之下你覺得基隆港這樣一做的需要性有沒有機會再重新來調整那第二個部分呢就是剛剛部長有提到因為這個計畫呢今年底可能就要結束就是剛剛所提到的台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15500.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15517.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
岸電推動示範計畫今年就要結束那是不是會有機會來徵收港區的空屋會或者是有其他的方案剛剛部長有提到所以這部分是不是到時候也可以給我們一些資料來參考也謝謝委員其實這個的確是可以降低港 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15517.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15535.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
裡面的空屋一個很好的方法但是我們現在就是最大麻煩就是這個費用目前可以貴太貴了那現在就是說港屋公司也在想辦法因為我也下了一個給他們談出一些想法第一個是如果這個點位可以增多那這個每一次要插電的時候那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15536.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15555.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
電工的費用可以降低第二個是我們有沒有辦法鼓勵一些例如說我們國內的像長榮或是陽明他們帶頭先來做全部宣布來做這個事情這樣會比較快所以我們在多元的在磋商彼此的一個可行性來進行不然的話他們大概原來都是希望我們來 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15556.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15570.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
完全空污費來付這個錢但是我們說要使用者付費所以我們彼此才從多元的角度在磋商這個事那可能是希望可能未來可能是看能不能一個月有一些再進行一個下一次的磋商我們是上個月有在討論這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15572.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15591.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
是 這個的確是需要跨部會共同來討論來解決謝謝委員 謝謝那下一個 再過來就是有關於環境部空氣品質偵測網如果能夠再加強這個資訊的整合這個以基隆港為例港公司其實它自己內部也架設三個偵測器的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15593.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15619.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
它其實它是可以即使能夠讓大家可以了解到這個基隆港本身的這些空污或者是空氣品質的情形那環境部當然沒話講它在基隆本身也有一個點可以讓民眾知道相關的這些空氣品質的實際監測的狀況可是我們仔細去了解好像兩者之間並沒有辦法直接連接 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15619.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15641.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
意思就是說透過環境部本身現在所公布出來的資訊無法直接從港公司那個三個點也能夠及時的能夠讓民眾掌握那這部分部長可不可以能夠及時來處理好 謝謝委員的這個建議這個我們趕快來跟港公司來聯繫希望他資料給我們可以放到我們的系統裡面也可以確保他的完整性好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15642.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15658.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那再過來就是有關於剛剛提到有關於老舊跟太祖漁船的回收的再利用這部分因為我們也了解這個未來很多的淘汰的船隻尤其是透過相關的FRP玻璃纖維的這些漁船 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15661.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15680.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
這樣使用下來應該有三四十年幾乎是五十年左右的時間那這些漁船本來主管機關是農業部和漁業署可是這個老舊船跟淘汰船隻的回收政策其實不是只有產業輔導而已另外其實是有助於這個協助漁民來轉型或者是退場 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15680.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15708.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那當然更直接關係到就是漁港裡面有大量的廢船堆積在所衍生出來的這些環境問題我想對部長來講都是很挑戰而且也是希望部長能夠有效來處理的部分尤其是玻璃纖維這個材質非常非常的困難回收處理的成本也非常的高那現在又無法暫置的這個三大困境之下這個可能就不是一個單一地方政府可以處理的這種問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15709.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15733.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
中央跟地方必須要根據這個部分來好好的處理所以想要請教部長的就是第一點針對這個FRP漁船的最終去化的量能環境部目前是不是有全國性的盤點跟估算包括到底有多少數量需要處理每一年要新增報的費量目前有沒有掌握到第二個就是如果目前沒有完整的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15734.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15749.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那部長能不能願意來主動邀集農業部地方政府來進行跨部會的盤點來建立一套全國性的數量的基礎跟去化的路徑好 謝謝委員這個想法因為這個我記得去年委員也有關心過這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15751.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15775.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
當時我記得是我們跟漁業署之間有一個分工那我們有補助一些示範計畫那我會回去再來瞭解一下那我認為是未來在從循環經濟資源循環零廢棄的角度本部應該是要來協助如委員所說的去知道多少量有多少會不會造成環境不然的話沒有這樣處理以後都會變廢棄物所以我們會來整合就照委員的這個指示來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15778.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15794.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
因為去年我們在10月份的時候有跟部長討論過這個部分那個時候環境部提供給辦公室的說明裡面有提到未來推動的方向裡面就是可以透過相關的這些廢FRP漁船的去化量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15795.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15822.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
用一種類似研究案的方式推動這個水泥高溫的這個水泥咬的協同的葉子來協同處置的方法後來也了解到這個研究案其實經過兩年的處置也初步可以透過高溫去把這些廢棄物做相關的處理以後變成它可以跟水泥的部分混在一起可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15823.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15841.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
適當的回收那也可以讓這個去化得到好的解決方式那所以這邊就是他們說還要再把這個操作許可變更好以後呢才有辦法真的去做好的去化的方式所以目前這個操作許可變更的進度不曉得部長有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15842.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15863.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那協調業者共同參與的結果有沒有相關的進度後續的政策部長有沒有一些想法好謝謝委員這個我回去會再來追這個的進度這個最重要是說未來我們要盤點照委員說的盤點他所有的量然後去化的可能性因為這個都還是只是一個示範型的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15864.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15890.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
不代表我們解決這個問題所以要把這個問題解決一定要把它所有的量找出來然後去化的點然後如何可以去說去化這個一定要算清楚才有辦法變成一個政策我們會積極來做好那部長是盤點看看什麼時候可以給我們一個相關的一些作業內容報告委員因為這個要跨部會是不是兩個月內我們跨部會得到一個結論再給委員一個討論好啊那麻煩謝謝部長兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15892.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15920.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那最後其實就是除了剛剛一些利用高溫的方式來處理這個相關的這些廢棄物以外其實還有另外一種做法提供給部長來參考也許部長已經知道就是說如果從源頭開始的時候呢就可以用一些好的材料來做後面回收或者是處理更好的作業模式那這個已經業者有開發相關的產品就是可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15921.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15943.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
可回收的這個熱固型的樹脂來跟玻璃纖維共同使用以後在使用壽命結束之前可以讓整艘船隻的材料可以回收再利用可以大幅降低廢棄處理跟環境的衝擊所以這個也提供給部長做參考我相信這個對國家未來整體的這個漁船的處理應該是有非常大的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15944.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15963.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個也期待說我們或許某一次委員會我們去這個像這樣的技術的廠商能夠去一起來瞭解一起來參觀來推動這些事情好那就麻煩到時候我們一起來瞭解甚至可以去考察看看他們的進度如何那就麻煩部長謝謝謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15981.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16004.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
好 下一位我們麻煩召委盧憲宜委員發言好 謝謝主席 現在有請彭部長好 再有請彭部長盧委員好 今天針對這三條我們當然從昨天還是前天開始就陸續接了很多關心的電話那我知道大家都承受很大的壓力不過既然排了這個還是有幾個問題跟部長請教就是我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16009.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16026.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
就是如果地方政府明明掌握某個產區長期它的排放量確實很高或是它位置在三級的繁殖區高污染的熱區啊可是地方政府卻只能等待業者主動提出第27條申請你覺得這是否會讓覺得地方空位治理太過被動 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16027.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16042.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
那本席不是要破壞第27條原本的彈性的精神也不是主張說地方政府可以毫無條件要求所有的廠商減量但事實上地方政府面對三級反智區而污染熱源民眾提起長期懲刑的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16043.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16067.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
結果他只能說等業者自己來申請或者說走第20條加研標準恐怕這些工具都不夠精準所以我想請問環境部如果不同意第27條改成地方主管機關可以主動要求業者改善的話你們本身有沒有替代的方案如果在特定條件下讓地方政府可以要求業者提出總量改善計畫是不是直接變更所有的操作條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16068.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16097.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
其實20條裡面就是有給地方這樣的一個水準一個能力來做這個事是不是請我們市長來詳細的說明跟委員報告其實在空法第20條排放標準的部分其實就授權地方政府可以因地方的這個特殊需求來加嚴他的排放標準那27條的這個條文最主要是所謂的污染泡制度他是給一個業者一個彈性說如果他一個工廠有好幾根排放管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16097.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16118.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那可能有一根他可能做不到或者做得比較不好可是他其他兩根可以做得特別好所以他可以盡量把做得好的再強化來抵消他那個做不好的部分然後讓整體的排放量能夠下降原來27號精神是這樣而且精神也是跟美國清空法在設計的精神是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16119.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16147.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
現在早上那個出行委員講到屏東 屏東就是它鄰近高雄是這個重工業的地區然後它的工廠是我們屏東的六倍造成我們屏東的污染其實有三分之一都來自高雄現在地方政府我覺得這個我們在修二十七二十八的話是不是因為屏東自己沒有污染源可是卻要去分享或者是高雄飄過來的廢棄我的意思是說對我們地方政府有沒有直接封殺這個山峰處的高污染這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16148.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16175.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
途徑我是覺得應該要想辦法解決這方面的問題向委員報告其實空房法在修法以後已經有空氣污染防治計畫要求各縣市提出提出的時候就有類似像委員所垂詢的上下峰的關聯因此他在提相關的計畫的時候就要跟上峰處的相關的來做討論那我們也稱為這個類似像好鄰居條款也就是大家要彼此共同努力來做這個空氣污染防治的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16175.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16177.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
好謝謝那現在請經濟部次長賴次長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16184.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16207.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
好委員好我們先針對新達電廠4號燃煤機就說我們我們不預設他是違法可是也不否認電力系統需要一些備援的測試我要問的是如果說燃煤機組已經定位為緊急備用他的測試頻率測試時數啟動條件排放的監測地方政府的事前參與是否比要比一般的機組更透明更嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16207.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16223.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
事實上台電公司一直遵循剛剛委員所說的部分第一個透明的部分因為它在進行這個測試事實上之前就已經有得到能源署的許可一個排程去做測試第二個部分啟動的這個時機因為這個機組的話它是備用機組它啟動的這個真正啟動的時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16230 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16246.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
必須要在備轉容量率在8%以下的時候才會啟動那委員剛剛談的那個事情是試運轉因為一個電廠總是要維持一個他隨時可以上場的一個狀態他才有辦法達到他的備用的一個情況這個60個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16248.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16262.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
的這個部分雖然說他在試運轉但是台電也會遵循對地方的承諾把它記在備用機組的720個小時裡面來去進行這個事情所以基本上第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16263.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16278.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
他是有排成的去做測試第二個他是資訊公開第三個的部分的話是他在處理的時候他還是有遵循未來的處理他還是會遵循他備用機組的一個規定那我的想法是說是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16280.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16287.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
第一就是緊急備用燃機的測試時數有沒有一個中離的一致標準測試期間如果他並聯發電的話是不是納入720小時計算第三測試期間的這個停跟停機的排放短時間高濃度曝露PM2.5流氧化物 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16300.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16327.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
氧化物這些資料是否能夠及時公開公開 第四就是地方政府是否可以在空氣不良季節三級紡織區等地方負荷已經很高的時候要求縮短測試期時間提高監測頻率或附加更加的嚴格操作條件我是覺得說如果這些答案都不清楚的話就代表我們這28條或相關執法至少需要補上緊急備用燃煤機組的特別管理規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16328.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16352.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那第一個台電公司事實上他都有一些所謂的SIMS的一個系統去監測所有剛剛委員所詢問的一個地方這第一個那第二個部分的話我剛剛有說明了台電在啟動這些的測試的一個狀況都有一個嚴謹的條件跟作業規範第三個問題是回答到委員所提到的這個測試的時間是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16355.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16377.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
定一個定場的規劃 事實上每一個電廠都是一個非常獨立的他運轉的時間 他機組的形式 他需要測試的一個時間我們認為台電事實上在全世界的所有的電業的這個經營上面 他的管理的績效相當的不錯那這個部分就尊重台電對個別電廠的這個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16379.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16394.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
好那針對8000家廠商受到衝擊這個部分想說擔心地方政府兩個月內未完成審查就可能造成停工斷鏈連續運轉設備不可逆這些損失我想說當然是軍重經濟部提出這些產業衝擊評估也同意說 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16396.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16412.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
而連續製程不能隨便停工但我要問的說這8000家廠商是否全部都因為第27283條修法而立刻停工是否全部都是高污染的燃料使用者是否全部都有連續製程不可逆的一些停工風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16413.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16434.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我先跟委員說明啦這些會影響的大部分固定污染源都是屬於鍋爐的那鍋爐的部分透過燃料把它轉換成熱能不管是在做殺菌不管是食品的業者或是醫院來去做提供一些包括這個什麼什麼冷氣啊或是消毒的這些的設備但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16437.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16463.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
每一個廠商從高科技一直到食品加工業或是肉品的加工業他的投資絕對不會是兩年他設備構置的時候他就有一定的這個所謂的一個實現這是我必須要說明的第二點我要說明的事情是說照目前各委員版本所提出來的這個草案一個非科則與廠商的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16466.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16486.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
卻是要廠商去負擔所有的風險這有點似乎有點違背了所謂法律的信賴保護的原則那最後一點我要跟委員說明的部分兩年期限一到期限到之前我要申請展延 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16487.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16510.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
然後期限到的話我要是要兩年那這中間很快的我馬上拿到一個許可證我馬上又要再申請那整天就在你補這個事情那廠商要不要生產當然要生產啊那事實上我們在今年的這個去年這個韌性的條例裡面我們已經輔導廠商做很多的設備態範 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16512.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16523.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
當他做了這些的設備開放他也取得相關的所謂的操作的許可的時候那不應該把所謂的非苛責於他的這個責任的這個風險讓這個廠商來承擔這個是我們最擔憂的是這8000多家 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16531.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16554.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
事實上不僅只有電液依照我們的所有的空氣污染排放清澈來看的話電液佔全國的固定污染源的部分只有一個小小的部分同意市長那其他的還有高科技啊半導體啊食品啊醫院啊因為時間的關係我是想說當然就是要請經濟部釐清的地方就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16554.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16576.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
只有部分涉及高污染產料部分涉及連續製程部分涉及展延預期風險這些我覺得經濟部應該把風險拆開而不是把所有的廠商包在一起行程中一修法就要鍛鍊了這個印象請問經濟部有沒有把8000家能夠分成幾類真正使用生煤燃油SRF等高污染跟增益性的燃料有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16577.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16598.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
未在三級反制區總量管制區的有多少屬於連續運轉一旦停工有不可逆損失的有多少近五年有重大違規進入需要加嚴管理者有多少透過改善期設備升級燃料替代率可以降低的衝擊的有多少我是覺得應該做一些順便的補充資料給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16598.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16627.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
這個我們就經濟部所主管的產業的部分我們會那還有其他的包括屬於衛福部啦醫院這些我們也會希望說委員會裡面針對於所有的這個行業別大家審慎來思考說如何進行對我們國家的空氣污染是會比較好而對廠商他經營的不可預期的風險可以降低然後把廠商的信心留在台灣這是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16629.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16649.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
希望說在委員會裡面必須要去審慎去處理現在所提出來的那最後我要跟委員講的重視依照現行的法規事實上不管是PM2.5的減量的部分或是整個空污的總量的這個減少的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16651.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16665.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
這個目前的這個減量的成果我們據我們的統計大概差不多有7萬7千公噸左右PM2.5減少了20%以上那這個部分我們希望說是有序的來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16666.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16691.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
所以在我們的所謂淨零碳排的這個排放的這個路徑裡面經濟部也會有相關的政策工具來協助廠商做設備的汰換甚至搭配一些循環經濟的一個作為來讓我們這個國家的環境跟產業的生產環境是更好那我期待的是說廠商是一個穩定的環境是一個可預期的過程裡面這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16692.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16707.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
或許針對於產業的發展對於環境的保護可能會是更好那另外還有修法還有一點就是把廠商自主減量的他可以提出來的申請的這個時機這個可能性把它降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16707.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16727.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
那這個部分完全要由一個所謂的比較不確定性的一個概念或是由政府來提出來需求這反而沒有辦法讓廠商自己依照他的這個經營計畫跟他對於社會的責任然後去提出一個減量做一些行為的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16728.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16743.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這邊建議是說我們的信息制度可能不夠積極所以還是希望能夠做一些產業轉型配套版的建議比如說包括燃料替代 設備改善 改善起輔助輔導與中央地方的協調一個機制出來這樣的話會認為說這個制度上面會更完善這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16748.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16771.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
所以我跟委員講以台中市為例的話其實台中市近幾年來是減少這個排放的部分大概減少了16%左右那很多的都是台中電廠他花了很多的這個經費去把這些所謂的減污的這個部分把它做好但是我們把整體台中市 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16772.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16793.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
的一個減量的部分扣掉台電的話那整體的這個排放還有增加那我們是要看說除了台電之外所有有有固定污染源的大家應該為齊心為了台灣這個環境一起來努力但是這些廠商沒有辦法及時去改變或是在他原來的這個操作許可之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16794.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16817.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
他經營的事實的環境這個現實的狀況我們必須要逐一去釐清其他的廠商啊比如說像焚化爐啊為什麼他為什麼不能減排我想他很願意去做可能他也有他的困難這個就是我們希望說在執行面上面法規面給他穩定的一個基礎執行面上面我們考慮到真正 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16818.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16846.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
可務實可執行的這樣子會對整個環境會更好好謝謝次長再請彭部長最後就針對第30條的部分再請教一個問題就是說許可政長也就是我們覺得應該建立風險分級不是說一律縮短到兩年也不是要求每兩年重新大幅改造它的設備啦我覺得本席主張的是風險分級的概念你低風險跟高風險當然一定不一樣嘛所以我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16847.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16857.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
環境部能夠研議對高風險污染源展演的時候它可以提出的改善計畫加嚴監測和減排放總量或者是縮短展演的期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16859.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16885.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
這個我們會來研議一下啦不過就是說因為這個涉及到8000多家公司所以要如何訂出來一個一定是跨部會來協商我們會來討論這個事情那現在審核的機關意義35日內完成實質審查這個相關規定既然有這個35天的審查要求那實際上預期的案件大概有多少有掌握嗎有一年這幾年都幾百件 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16887.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16906.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那是不是有些縣市特別有不足的地方例如說像以高雄他的許可證就要幾千張所以對他來說就壓力特別大所以我覺得這種審查量能不足的話中央是不是應該補足他的人力技術標準化的審查工具讓他能夠加速他的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16907.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16922.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
因為這個東西涉及到整個環境的人力的嚴重不足因為現在外面的我們環境人力都很優秀當外面科技業都在挖人的時候我們流動率也很高所以這個東西如果一做的話按照現在是很難啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16923.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16940.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
我也贊同說未來如果有更好的方法可以來做但是現在來做的確是有點挑戰所以這個未來的確是可以來探討因為像現在以高雄或是桃園桃園都是這兩個都是比較多的那當然他們的工廠數也比較多也是主要一個原因可能省不完啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16941.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16959.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
所以有幾個折增方向讓部長參考就是業者如果準時且完整申請沒有重大違規可以暫時有條件的延續操作第二就是讓業者延遲補正資料不完整會有重大違規就不應該享有同樣的保障第三就是主管機關預期未完成審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16960.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16983.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
公開預期原因案件進度於預定的準薄期限第四預期期限延續期間的不得增加排放量必要時增加延監測加延監測或者是說附加臨時操作的條件這就是我其他折衷的一個方向讓部長參考好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝盧昭偉的發言也謝謝部長跟市長的應答 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16994.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16994.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
真 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17005.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17030.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在我們請嚴匡衡委員嚴匡衡委員嚴匡衡委員不在賴世保委員賴世保委員賴世保委員不在羅廷維委員羅廷維委員羅廷維委員不在岳元之委員岳元之委員岳元之委員不在接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17035.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17037.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請部長柯前部長部長 台灣目前正發生空氣不正義事件那就是已經停機除役的賣電 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17049.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17069.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
一號機跟三號機即將以短期調度的名義借勢還魂這事情你知道嗎知道我4月9號在委員會質詢那上週三又到經濟委員會然後我直接請教了國務部長我特別說你沒說短期調度嘛那承諾當時是五六七嘛那有沒有人可以保證不會到八九十 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17070.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17085.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
然後部長答我是這樣他原本說不會後來又看了台電董事長之後又把他句話吞回去也是這樣所以基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17086.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17102.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
這個美伊戰爭到底到什麼時候沒有人可以說的定嘛我們都很清楚那你用短期的調度講這五六七又不敢保證是不是有八九十然後講說賣電的合約是到2027那簡單講也就是到今年的年底嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17104.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17117.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那就不是所謂的五六七的短期凋渡這三個月嘛然後我們部長又講了一段話這對外講的喔他說只要賣電可以來做這樣的一個處理就可以降低中火的用煤量這什麼邏輯?鐵輪裡面空氣鐵輪裡面空氣款來挖中火的降載站在環保環境部的立場看待這事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17133.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17135.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
怎麼會因應?不曉得要不要講句公道話 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17136.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17165.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
包委員當然以環境部的立場當然如果說盡量不要用燒煤的做法是我們的期待的一個目標所以我們也會持續的請經濟部跟台電審慎評估它的必要性跟它的一個時機那因為它的法規現在來說的話還是在有效期以內而且它現在已經獲得雲林縣政府的有條件的同意那未來我們的角色現在因為這個是他們是主管機關它已經獲得雲林縣政府有條件的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17169.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17191.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以目前未來我們會要責成我們的地方的環保機關主管機關要嚴密的監控監督他的空污排放數據這就是我們目前可以做的對不起你剛剛答覆我是說這個確定雲林縣政府答應了然後是有條件的答應是不是這個有條件是指什麼有條件那條件內容是什麼這個要不要請問市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17192.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17221.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
用煤量沒有超過114年的水準就是275萬公噸用煤量不得超過114年對的總TOTAL的275萬噸不能超過275萬噸對好那我跟施主問請教一下你們有沒有掌握當時的用煤量275萬噸是一二三三個機組燃燒出來的量對不對對總共總共嘛對不對對好那二二七組已經拆掉了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17222.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17227.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
然後一號機跟三號機的有條件不得超過114年度的275噸這有道理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17233.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17252.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
這個有道理嗎也就是說當時的123這三號機組每一個機組如果270噸來講就是每個機組有90噸嘛對不對那他已經把二號機拆掉了所以就剩下一號機跟三號機然後一號機跟三號機要去承載原有的每號機的90噸現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17255.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17264.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
對3927嘛對不對然後現在變成多少變成每一號機組要再增加原本的90噸再加上45噸就變成1351351加3兩號機組加起來就是變成270噸嘛這樣有道理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17272.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17279.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
部長能不能簡單討論一下這種道理嗎原本是三號三個基礎在承載一年275萬噸現在變成兩個基礎在承載270萬噸這個到底有沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17290.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17311.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那部長你要慎重答覆我站在黃之空的主管機關是貴單位嗎當然對我們來說是希望說能夠盡量的減少是我們的主要的目的社會環境主管機關啦但是目前這個還是要讓經濟部他們因為他們有這個電力這個韌性的一個需求來做這個事情柏中你是環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17314.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17333.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
你不是以前環保署,你不是以前經濟部環保署對我們來說我們是希望說經濟部他需要有電力的需求嘛對不對有電力才有辦法去供給產業面的這樣的一個期待嘛這個我們都很清楚嘛但是空氣的防治、污染基本上主責機關是在你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17335.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17344.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
過去是三個機組123在承載南美的總TOTAL你剛剛講的114年度就270幾嘛對不對那現在已經拆了二號機剩下兩個機組為什麼一樣承載相同的114年度的總TOTAL的南美的量這個道理何在 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17356.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17384.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
這個專政環境部你要怎麼處理要怎麼營運包委我們對我們的立場我們早上也大概有一個承諾就是說我們會透過空品的模擬各方面也把這個風險性如果這兩個要這三個月的增加對附近特別是雲林民眾的風險性我們來做一個評估希望一個月內一到兩個月內有一個初步的結果出來那我們會來幫把關空氣品質跟健康的這個兩個因素這是我們要關注的焦點 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17385.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17411.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
部長你不應該有條件啦地方政府在有條件你也跟人家有條件中部的空氣品質在這幾年經由你率領的環境部啦上上下下大家共同努力的情況之下不管是移動的不管是固定的都有明顯的下降那你現在又要有條件去認可這個在賣電的兩號機組然後渾燒比過去更大的燃煤量 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17412.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17430 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那你說你有條件的你再跟人家有什麼條件的去認可這件事情沒有道理沒有道理一旦一旦這個地方的空氣品質又越來越劇烈然後空污的狀況一直一直整個我們看到的數字在提高你要怎麼對對對人民負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17435.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17446.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
我剛剛已經點出這個不可思議的這種有條件的同意三號機一噸燒兩百七十幾兩號機兩個機組一樣要燒同樣的量那你們可以同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17456.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17480.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
不對勁我不吃雞皮疙瘩這個事情大家會沒有沒了我絕對不容許這種事情發生那一天4月9號在委員會的時候應該你沒有列席我知道我知道委員的想法那次也應該沒有列席啦那我必須跟你講那個地方當時是非常的離譜惡劣之前是燃燒石油窖 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17482.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17503.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那石油車連印度政府都不愛愛啊那是自愛物喔那是在這裡說很久,說了六百年連院會也說了六百年民進黨執政完之後就說要把它禁掉了那一直沒有做,是我們在這邊修了修了法律,是我提案的提案完之後還要經過協商然後進到院會然後刪除通過還要經過總統府公告你知道那個延長的拖了多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17512.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17530.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
這三號機組原本就全部應該拆掉了拖拖拉拉不拆掉只拆掉一個二號機組那你現在又有條件地方政府有條件我沒有辦法去救著他們但環境部不能這麼做啦那次你在這邊我也拜託你們真的不要這麼做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17531.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17549.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
真的不要這麼做了因為你們的短期你們的短期五六七你們的短期就不是五六七嘛因為你不敢保證嘛保證美伊戰爭到什麼時候嘛管部長也沒有辦法答覆我嘛所以你們的短期調度就有可能五六七八九十嘛十十一十二嘛我為什麼要接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17551.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17577.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那你這我跟人家講的短期調度就三個月啊那你不敢保證說三個月就結束了啊那你憑什麼跟人家講短期你憑什麼跟人家講任性你哪來的任性沒有啊謝謝委員關心這個問題啊我們非常關心而且委員過去一直致力在空氣污染的改善的這個部分那也因為這委員會大家一個督促之下所以台 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17578.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17603.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
台塑化的這個台塑的這個賣料的E3號機組他現在是超零件Super critical的所以他基本上跟過去大家沒有改變之前呢他的燃料的來源或是他的所謂的排汙的這個部分是稍微有降低那另外一個部分剛剛委員是有提到一點是事實上三部機組275啦那你今天兩部機組絕對不可能燒到275 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17605.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17620.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
然後更何況台電公司現在跟台塑的這個所謂的簽訂的緊急的合約是三個月所以基本上的話你說好假設我們來看的話因為一個機組發電量是固定的他 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17621.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17640.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
你未給他太多的燃煤的話事實上他也不可能產生更大的一個電能所以基本上275除以3大概是三分之二左右再十二分之三左右的這個量大概是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17641.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17670.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
初步上面我們現在估出來的一個部分那另外一個工作我們也希望說中東的戰士我們盡量去找尋我們能源的韌性來去讓委員的擔憂把它減少市長市長你的專業在秩序我非常敬佩然後你也非常用心然後包含電子下線你都非常投入但這種燃煤的事情我要提醒你你打火真的要很小心 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17671.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17686.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
有很多事情他們幹得出人你不一定想得到你不用去替他們答覆說275除以3不會等275除以2你不用替他們答覆這種事情然後什麼叫超臨界你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17694.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17721.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
請部長跟次長要小心啦反正我是反對到底你們要去盤整你們要整理去盤整你那個短期的調度你去想別的地方你就不要再想那個地方你一旦想那個地方你們絕對會有沒有辦法承受的事情會發生啦我再度提醒好我再度提醒然後對漁林人也不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17723.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17748.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
坦白講空氣汙染對粉的關係已經上海蓋鼓了好不容易都搞了 時間都搞了跟純智能 純智能一殺雞沒吃而已你們就把手機拿去或是感覺政府不應該憑理行事啦然後那個燃燒的量你們自己去思考清楚絕對不是陳副市長你掌握的這個狀況我真的是善意提醒這個事情如果你們硬要做下去真的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17751.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17768.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
會比馬鈴薯會更嚴重而且我希望環境部環境部真的要更有更強大的power不能讓這個事情發生好 謝謝好 謝謝委員的建議 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的質詢接下來請楊耀委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17798.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17799.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
主席請一下經濟部賴次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17808.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17832.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
市長好 市長辛苦了我有幾個問題就空汙法的修法影響層面跟市長做個探討在經濟部的新聞稿裡面曾經指出說這一次排審的草案可能涉及到能源跟產業排放規範那部分版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17833.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17850.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
更加規定固定污染源操作許可的期限只要期滿而且地方政府在兩個月內沒有完成延展的審查業者就不得繼續操作就形同停工這個會讓產業承擔行政審查延誤的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17857.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17859.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
行政審查延誤原本應該是行政機關的責任這個版本可能會轉嫁把風險的承擔歸於業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17874.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17888.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我不只成本會增加,大概也會影響到全國供電的穩定我們現在就是電廠可能就是固定污染源裡面最容易被探討到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17891.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17911.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
經濟部也表示過就是相關修法可能可能會波及到半導體鋼鐵石化紡織罩紙水泥等產業關鍵產業千年的層面非常的廣所以假如說固定固定污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17912.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17929.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
原使用許可證因為審查延誤被迫停工可能導致上中下游的供應令斷裂經濟損失是很嚴重的我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17931.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17945.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
部裡面對於可能造成的經濟損失大概在哪裡範圍多大有沒有一定的評估這個部分我們今天早上報告裡面剛剛委員所說的這幾項產業我們統計起來差不多是8000多家 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17949.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17961.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
那這些八千多家裡面其實事實上還不包括醫院還有可能是有一些可能是食品的加工廠或是那個或是肉品的因為他們都需要鍋爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17964.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17992.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
原來立法的原意是說當他進行去設置的時候他必須要去定期的去履行他原來設置通過政府審查的責任當期限若是要到的之前他要提出來這一些所謂相關的申請那相關的申請必然是在公部門來進行申請那這些行政的風險因為時間到審查沒有準薄與否的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17993.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18001.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那這個責任卻是轉嫁到業者來那這個業者承受到他一個投資未來設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18004.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18030.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
可能會隨時因為這種行政審核或是法規的規定讓他停留了那停留的話他就必須要去停工那這個是問題是很大的第二個問題的話我是跟委員報告假設按照目前的這個若綱委員所提出來的修正草案的話不但是這樣子而且把許可的這個年限下降到兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18032.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18059.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
兩年一次可是我兩年快到的時候我要提出申請我們一天到晚公務人員一天到晚就是在做審查然後廠商一天到晚業者也很麻煩啦對啦業者一天到晚在送新的書件那這針對一個實質的生產力啊甚至是他投資的一個所謂的風險或是一個不確定性他都是有隱憂的那在過去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18060.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18088.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
我們的一個努力不是說我們不重視所謂的環境的部分我們以剛剛我跟盧委員所提到的這個大家很關心的可能是電業的部分那以中火事實上它2016年到2021年它的中火的空台的減量達到60%而全台中市 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18089.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18113.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
是減少18%但是我們若是把台中的中火的減量把它扣掉的話台中市整個空污的排放量事實上是增加的那這麼多的業者在台中市他為什麼會增加我們必須我們認為我們必須要去探究他 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18114.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18142.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
是不是製程改善可能有一些問題或是設備投資可能相關的金額時間很長或是空間可能改善是有限的所以經濟部在這個部分從去年的任性條例我們產發署提供了經費的補助讓相關的這個廠商他可以去汰換設備然後因為有這些資金的挹注那廠商更願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18144.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18168.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
來為我們的空屋來去盡一份這個心力然後另外一點就是我們現在的若干委員的提案泥修正的部分就是說把一些中央跟地方的法規沒有對齊的部分標準不一甚至有一些我們所謂的空白授權之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18171.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18197.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
因為在這審議的裡面是說他許可的時候他可以附條件的許可那委員也知道當一個法我們必須要維持信賴保護的原則法律保留的原則我們針對人民的所謂的所謂的這個任何的行政的準博必須要法律的授權當這個授權沒有明確或是超越授權的時候這可能對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18199.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18218.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
民眾來講的話業者來講就會產生很大的這個衝擊負條件許可就是會產生後續很多不確定性因為他負的條件不知道他準博的依據是什麼因為現行的規定裡面中央他必須要去訂一個所謂的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18221.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18241.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
那這個標準的話是由環境部去會商相關的單位去訂出來的那我假設業者的話我要去申請這個我就知道說中央的規則在那邊我就依照這個規則我來準備我的書件然後甚至我還希望說我可能是可以去做到什麼自主減量的一個可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18242.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18250.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
那這個部分把所謂的業者他需要去自主減量的一個機會甚至在若干委員的提案裡面這個機會就剝奪掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18253.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18272.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
他的提案是說要由地方政府去指定他要去做什麼事情就是說法律本來就要明確啦那行政材料更需要明確啦要不然業者其實也無從做很多相關的準備啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18272.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18280.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
那市長剛剛大概把我原本要問的國民健康跟產業發展就是你們藉由相關的補助讓相關的業者可以減少空污的量的製造你大概也已經一併講完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18293.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18314.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
那我最後呼應一下次長的講法就是我覺得法律是這樣子法律必須要誰做的行為誰負擔責任那假如說行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18316.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18329.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
的延誤責任轉嫁給業者這個是非常不公平的一件事情對於產業的發展本身也是一種傷害對於台灣的經濟發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18331.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18351.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
國民的整體的生活也都會有影響這個我覺得市長在修法的時候本席會跟你們站在同一個立場我們希望說大院的委員會理解因為我是公務人員因為這個假如說修過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18352.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18375.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
因為我們現在看到公務員在地方或是在中央無論地方中央缺員很多那他有限的人力一下子要應付這麼多的可能因為說密集的審查然後要因為一個案子啊他不是只有書面審查而已他要實質審查甚至他還要去排線看 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18376.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18401.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
那有限的人力去應付這個很短的時間裡面然後密集的需要去做些循環的行政的作業事實上對公務人員來講也是一個極大的壓力因為其實現在我們就是受理任何案件本來也都有時程的規範只是那個是一般的行政規則就內部的規定那再怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18402.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18418.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
也不應該是在人力這麼短缺的情況下也不應該是把人力短缺造成的延誤轉嫁給業者啦這個第一點第二點就是萬一再有其他的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18419.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18435.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
譬如說我們就講電廠譬如說這一陣子境外污染源特別多那也會影響地方政府審核的速度啦我們不要說過於不過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18437.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18455.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
使得速度一定會拖慢那把這個責任轉嫁給業者這個不管從法理上或是從全體台灣的經濟發展國人的生活都不是一件好事好啦 謝謝次長這麼詳細的說明謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝央要委員的諮詢接下來請陳穎委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18477.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18479.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
謝主席麻煩請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18485.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18509.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
陳委員好部長好這次討論空污法的修法重點包括了擴大地方的裁量權還有可強制業者減排跟限制或禁止燃料使用以及縮短許可展延的期限等等的提案我想請教一下部長我們空污法的立法目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18510.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18527.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
是不是以這個防制空氣污染保障國民健康為目的還是以這個管控國家電力資源調節電力供需為目的呢好謝謝委員你這個形容非常好我們是防制空氣污染保障國民健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18528.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18548.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
所以絕對不是要去控管這個國家電力資源絕對不是那個不是我在空污法裡面的權責好那我再請教喔空污法第27條的主體是什麼是不是這個公私場所公跟私的場所或者是這個地方縣市政府公私場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
18549.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
18571.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
好那如果現行的這個第27條呢是為了鼓勵這個業者呢主動改善新舊製程污染的機制喔那但是我們草案改為這個地方政府變成主體反而可以要求業者在原本的排放標準下再降低排放總量與濃度那這樣子喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
18572.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
18587.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
形同強制減量對於發電業的業者是不是空污法就變成了太上的電業法地方縣市政府實際就變成具有控管國家電力資源的機關了 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
18589.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
18607.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
謝謝委員這個非常精闢的點出這個這次要修改的所有問題喔謝謝委員這麼真實著解因為其實我們不排斥任何家園空屋的做法但是這次如果修成這樣就如同委員說的就是一個太上的電業法恐怕而且他波及的不是只有電力業所有的產業全部受影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
18608.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
18636.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
沒錯那我們再看一下根據空污法第20條的規定公司場所固定污染源排放空氣污染物應符合排放標準那直轄市縣市主管機關得應特殊需要擬定個別較嚴之排放標準那報請中央主管機關會商有關機關核定之那我請教部長這裡的個別是指 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
18637.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
18640.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
個別的縣市政府呢還是指個別污染源 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
18641.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18668.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
個別污染源因為是縣市政府提出的個別的污染源是好那我們再來看為什麼本席要特別在這裡釐清這個個別到底是指什麼因為第20條的排放標準即使個別縣市政府要訂定更嚴格的標準畢竟他還是要送到這個中央主管機關來核定但是到了第27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18670.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18690.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
反而规定了公司场所得向地方县市政府申请改善其排放空气污染物总量及浓度经审查核准后其个别污染源之排放得不受第20条第一项及第二项所定排放标准之限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18691.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
18712.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
也就是為了改善空污的總量跟濃度27條容許地方政府可以訂定個別的污染源的排放標準這樣的解釋部長可以回應嗎謝謝委員你非常專業的點出所有的問題就是這個問題如果這個問題定下去改的話會造成台灣一國25次這個台灣會亂掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
18715.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
18729.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
所以其實我們就算今天不修法地方政府也可以依據現行空污法的第27條來向中央申請核定空污的總量跟濃度對不對對沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
18734.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
18748.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
所以今天的修法其實是居心可異不知道到底是愛台灣還是要亂台灣本席合理的提出這樣的質疑那如果我們這一次真的同意了第27條的修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
18750.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
18775.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
放寬地方政府的裁量權那麼就抵觸了第20條的規定兩條法律彼此互相衝突這個控護法可能就真的是自愛難行了我們各縣市的這個可能標準不一造成一國多治那國家在整個電力調控就變成不可控制了 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
18777.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
18787.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
這樣一來我們電廠跟工廠的營運也會受到限制限制面臨關廠的風險這將會帶來很可怕不可逆的傷害所以對於產業投資環境跟經濟發展的整個帶來相當大的衝擊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
18798.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
18815.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
你認不認同會有這樣的狀況發生我非常謝謝委員這麼長期以來在外環委員會的專業就是一起整一次很簡單的又易懂的點出了這次這個要修法可能會衍生的所有的問題那我非常贊同委員的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
18815.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
18828.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那也希望這樣的一個意見能夠讓社會大眾能夠理解這個雖然對我們來說我們是越演越好但是如果有些言到說這個制度無法推動就會造成委員你說到的不可逆的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
18829.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
18854.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
是那我們最後再看一下第28條的修正草案的部分現行只有規範燃料成分與這個混燒比例但是修法後地方政府可公告禁止或限制使用生煤燃油SRF燃料甚至訂定更嚴格的規範那這樣子等同說地方政府具有將這個使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
18856.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
18874.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
石化燃料的工業直接關廠的影響力那這樣的職權呢它不僅影響說整個火力發電廠甚至連同使用鍋爐的各個這個製造業都會受到衝擊那許多工廠跟鍋爐業者呢會因為這個燃料的這個受限而無法營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
18875.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
18895.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
那影響的層面絕對不是只有發電廠而已那我想在修法的同時即便就是說大家關心這個火力發電廠的問題但是我想我們這個一筆劃下去自改掉其實整個影響的層面其實我們都需要面面俱到 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
18896.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
18921.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
那最後我想就是說在這邊也勉勵期許我們環境部各個官員你們要勇於利用你們的專業來辯護你們的立場那現行的環境部的事也其實在我們彭博士我們的部長彭博士的帶領之下其實已經是讓台灣的這個整個環境政策越來越與國際接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
18923.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
18945.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
你們的報告其實不管簡報或者是內容一向都非常專業那即便本席不是這個環境領域的專家我們都可以看到這一次提案修法的隱憂了所以希望環境部你們能夠堅持專業勇於辯護我這邊在這裡提出這樣的提醒跟期許 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
18946.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
18971.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
謝謝委員的專業因為你的鼓勵我們會努力堅守我們原來的信任的價值對我來說空污一定要改善要越來越好我們現在遇到瓶頸要各種機為九事的這種多重去處理那我們也正在往這個方向當中那這個修改修改法如果法是嚴格有用的我們也會全力的支持但是如果會造成台灣很亂就如同委員說的我們會秉持我們的專業勇敢的辯護謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
18974.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
18987.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
我們修法是為了要解決問題不是來添亂的所以我們既然看到這個未來的亂象了所以我們今天一定要在這裡提出嚴正的警告謝謝委員 謝謝我們會努力 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
18992.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19008.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
上午會議詢答全部結束現在做一下決定及決議因說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩周內已順便答覆委員另有要求期限者從期鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19009.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19032.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
三委員樓庭委等事三人凝聚空氣擾防治法第27條第28條第30條條文修正草案等兩案尚未審查完略令則期繼續審查並於逐條審查前則期舉辦公聽會本日上午會議到此結束現在休息下午兩點半繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19049.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19050.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我們要去參加那個活動 |