| IVOD_ID |
17386 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17386 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026042460 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-27T14:01:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-27T15:43:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:41:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a00598d48630018b6f35b998afd5040d6cb1d480c4e0b4ea525ebc2ca52134921c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-27T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」等案。（民進黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:01:05 - 15:43:00 |
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好 謝謝協商時間已到能不能請我們工作夥伴通知一下國民黨團三長都未到問一下怎麼回事好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1799.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1824.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 熱情歡迎 來國民黨團副總召 書記長林佩祥首席副書記長徐宇貞都到好 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝以及各位列席的委員我們今天要繼續協商軍購特別條例草案首先要再繼續來介紹我們今天列席的官員歡迎國防部顧部長及國防部所屬的所有的列席的 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1825.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1849.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
同仁們財政部國庫署的陳署長謝謝主席總署的副主席長謝謝蔡副主席長謝謝您經濟部法務部審計部數位部衛生福利部國家科學技術委員會行政公共工程委員會所有的夥伴們站起來跟大家打個招呼好嗎一口氣好謝謝謝謝大家我們繼續今天我們是第三次來協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1851.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1862.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
今天我們要繼續協商行政院所提的第四案民眾黨團所提的第四案國民黨團第四條國民黨團所提案的第五條有關採購項目的條文請問各黨團幹部來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1867.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1883.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
再請國防部隨後在三個黨團發言完畢之後來表達寶貴的意見我們首先還是請台灣民眾黨團那個你們應該有一點修正的看法吧上次那個請剪短二要沒關係不用客氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1886.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1891.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
謝謝院長我們台灣民眾黨黨團所提的第四條最主要是我們把項目數量金額我們分別來列出整個我們的一個討論我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1907.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1933.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
可以來調整 以為我們了解在我們的提案的一個部分我們把每一個項目的數量包括要購買的數量還有金額 直接這個展明在我們的一個提案裡面我們的第四條裡面這個部分我們可以來做一個修正那就是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1935.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1942.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
項目不變 項目不變但是數量跟金額我們可以挑戰 刪除這是我們針對第四條初步表達的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1954.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1974.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 謝謝院長 其實國民黨黨團的態度其實一向很清楚我們要好的武器 我們要合用的武器 我們要會到位的武器所以說國民黨黨團是第五項裡面提的都是所謂在LOCA 也就是所謂的這個國會同意的發架書上面所列出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1974.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2001.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那我這邊可能就是如果說有國會同意的發架書出來的話我們兩黨團會立即去針對這個軍購才去做增加不過在這邊就可能要就教我們國防部第一件事就是有關目前據說有第二份的發架書請問一下第二份的發架書目前的進度到哪裡有沒有追蹤那請問說發架書現在的情況是如何那第二個其實我這邊有看到說我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2003.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2019.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們的整個案子提案裡面有不少有關無人機的無人機的購買那老實說上次我有看陳永康將軍的質詢針對無人機來講其實我們知道當戰時如果當打仗的時候所有的無人機目前我們看到的無人機都是用4機 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2020.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2044.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
5G甚至GPSGPRS來去做通訊來去做操作但是如果當戰爭的時候很有可能這些4G 5G甚至GPS全部都會不靈都會失靈不能用那如果說以目前我們看到的俄烏戰爭跟美伊戰爭的狀況來講俄烏戰爭的時候烏克蘭使用的是所謂的STARSHIELD星盾也就是所謂馬斯克他的馬斯克的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2047.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2060.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他們的公司裡面新煉的國防版他是新煉的國防版我就很好奇就是說如果是以美伊戰爭的話伊朗的無人機使用的則是大陸所用的北斗衛星系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2062.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2083.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那在這前提之下如果我們購買這麼多的無人機理論上來講我們應該至少要配有美國所提供的一個無人操作無人機的軍用低軌衛星系統這樣才能實質上的讓我們的無人機可用、能用、堪用那在這前提之下我也想就教我們國防部目前我們對於STAR SHIELD ACQUIRED |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2084.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2109.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
也就是說對於星盾系統的買賣是否有成型那如果沒有的話是不是說先跟美國政府談說有關星盾系統的購買我們再來談其他的項目我覺得這是如果假設說我們對戰爭要審慎考量的時候這方面如何去操作無人機在戰時精準操作無人機這點會是很重要的一點 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2113.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2141.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
謝謝我們林書記長的發言現在民進黨團發言完畢請國防部發言請民進黨團表達意見謝謝院長還有各位協商的黨團代表我想我首先提出來我們這樣談還是談不下去了我為什麼先這樣講就是說我們上次在談就是金額跟項目的部分那你涉及到項目的部分院長我們今天這個協商這個不是機密我們這個又談不下去了你像比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2144.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2168.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
國防部現在所提的他匡列的這一些是我們上次民主政府黨上次提出來的就是國民黨所列出來的這一些你像比如說濱海作戰的部分就是無人機要放進去嘛我們就沒有看到國民黨的無人機的部分嘛我們上次就是說國民黨其實你如果認為哪一些不需要你就把它給砍掉啦你像濱海攻擊型無人機我們上次看到國防部所秀出來的資料是光這個部分就20萬架 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2170.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2194.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
20萬家那我看到不管是中國國民黨或者台灣民眾黨我沒有看到說你們認為無人機哪一項項目把它給放進去那這部分你怎麼辦這第一個那第二個你說防空的部分你說精準火砲國防部的版本裡面就放一個精準火砲其實我們也很清楚精準火砲要埋拿幾樣東西只要有去參與整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2197.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2206.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
秘密專報的部分應該大家會知道或者是你有詳細去看國安部提出來這次的採購你就會知道可是我們偏偏我們在這個協商又不能去講那幾樣的飛彈的部分所以這個涉及到這個就變得很麻煩我們就變雞同鴨講所以我要再次提出來就是說國安部好不容易花了這兩年多的時間去跟美國這樣好不容易大家去說啊你應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2222.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2240.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
去台灣應該去建這些什麼那我所看到的是不管是中國國民黨或台灣民眾黨你們也看到了有一些需求沒有錯但問題就是說在台灣民眾黨的第四條或者中國國民黨的第五條你所放進來的都是一些涉及的武器啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2241.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2260.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一個部隊 國防的一個建軍哪可能只有買武器你偵查系統你怎麼辦 監控系統你怎麼辦也就是說 你買了武器 可是你沒有眼睛那一步我們在這個地方協商 又不能講院長你應該懂我的意思我們只能在這邊談對不上來的東西我只能去講說台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨所提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2267.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2296.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國安部所提出來這樣的一個版本那個相距十萬八千里那我們又不方便在這個地方講說國民黨少了些什麼民眾黨少了些什麼所以困難在這個地方那好多東西就是你看那個台美無償給台灣給我們花了那麼多錢那這個部分我們是不是也該自己去花錢了那個是什麼我們又不能講所以我跟院長我要講的部分就是說我們這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2298.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2310.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
項目對不上金額的部分那很明顯很具體的部分又不能台灣民眾黨也講說他們金額可以調啊然後他們也覺得項目他們也可以調啊問題是你們可以調多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2312.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2341.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
總是要有一個決定啊 我也知道永康將軍你在這個地方啊你這樣聽我講 你也知道我們的困難在什麼地方啊很多東西我們想要 你們也想要你也不敢講 大家只是講說金額可以調然後呢 項目可以調 距離數字到底是什麼 以上可以講到什麼地步啊 我就要聽聽看國防部看有沒有比較厲害了啦其他我稍微隨便一講的話 變成機密的部分我把人家講出來也不對啊 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2342.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2366.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好,謝謝莊書記長貼心的提醒以及表述我們現在請顧部長表達一下意見好嗎針對我們現在院版的第四條院版的第四條我們還是說明一下我們所列出的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2367.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2384.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
七種的這個能力的建構那對這個七種的能力的建構在我們的專報裡面有一一說明的相當的清楚那麼也分別列舉了大概這七類所要採購的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2386.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2402.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
具體的這個項目及這個相關的這些金額所以我們這個一照2500億就是按照這個金額所出來的那剛剛國民黨團所提出來的一些無人機所應該具備的看干擾能力我想本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2404.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2430.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
無人機跟無人機反制系統就是一個相對性的一個概念也就是說無人機他本來都像GPS的干擾這本來就是一個常見的一個手段那所以我們如何來這個應對這個在沒有GPS的導引的狀況之下我們還能夠自主的辨識然後進行自主的攻擊然後甚至還有以後再加入AI來進行群蜂式的這個協同打擊等等這本來就是我們一個發展的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2432.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2448.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
一個方向那至於有關剛剛問到的這個STAR SHARE的我想我可能沒有辦法在公開場合做說明 好不好好 謝謝國防部部長的再次說明接下來列席的委員有沒有意見要表達林柱英委員 馬文君委員 徐曉新委員請陳永恆委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2452.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2462.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
院長各位大家好我的一個這個審查的建議是不是我們有可能先跳過第四條然後先討論第五條因為第五條呢是整體的金額的匡列那他當然會跟第四條有直接的連動性所以如果我們大家第四條討論但第五條沒有的話那其實呢討論到老半天然後到第五條的時候全部也是翻過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2474.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2501.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以我的先做一個簡單的建議是不是我們能夠從第五條的這一次特別條例那的匡列的這個金額來做一個討論謝謝謝謝許曉新委員非常聰明的一個方法我們可以先討論第五條那個陳偉康將軍如果您同意的話我們就同意如果您還有不同意請發言將軍陳委員請發言主席各位同仁我提一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2502.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2523.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
第一個建議我們談到的軍售第一個是美軍在使用的裝備那麼透過軍售那這個軍售的過程中間有FMS有FMF有這個FMA有PDA那這個有不同的結果但是不包括直接商售那因為我們在這裡面提到了都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2524.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2547.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
美式的装备可是没有强调台湾之盾那台湾之盾里面的装备sensor跟shooter飞弹雷达我们透过军售买可是台湾之盾并不是美军的标准系统因此的系统整合并没有含括在这个军售里面但是美国有三家重要的厂商Lucky Martin, Raytheon |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2548.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2576.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
還有這個North Grumman他們在這個台灣之盾裡面將來誰扮演主合約商現在還沒有定因此在美國申請出口許可還沒有獲到授權也就是說我們的合約草稳看不到這三家那這個部分因為過去都沒有在這裡面提出來所以如果只看軍售的裝備這個台灣之盾的系統整合還沒有包括進去提出建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2577.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2585.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝陳永康委員的發言剛才徐曉新委員的意思建議我覺得各位黨團幹部也沒有意見我們先進入第五條回過頭來蔡總召請 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2587.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2614.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
其實這是一個好方法然後我先兩位委員我都稍微回應一下那個陳將軍的講法其實我是同意的就是簡單講就是說軍事講法一定前提要先落入這裡面不只是只有軍購商購也應該含括在這一次就台灣之盾的這個計畫裡面所以我非常同意將軍這個講法因為這個講法他就會更完備的接近國防部所講的內容這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2615.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2621.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那所以比較會接近國防部所提出的這個需求一定要全部用軍購商購自製 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2624.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2645.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那第二個部分我想第五條討論我其實也沒有什麼太大意見因為先討論一個額度因為第五條主要我們是要討論這個特別條例裡面到底要授權給國防部上限那個金額是多少所以你要先講全部的金額其實我也沒有什麼好反對但是我的邏輯是一樣的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2647.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2663.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個是軍購條例所以條例就像剛剛跟主席在聊天就是一個蘿蔔一個坑那我們現在在講坑所以坑討論了坑多幾個到時候還是要放蘿蔔 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2664.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2692.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那至於這國民黨跟民主黨要給多少蘿蔔這個還是第二階段也就是要進入預算的時候才會討論到蘿蔔現在只討論到坑所以如果坑的範圍多一些坑未來蘿蔔我們還可以討論不是說坑有了就一定會放蘿蔔嘛所以我們先把坑都確定了那坑就是剛剛那個徐委員所講的我們要多少坑要多少這個上限多少這個可以先來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2693.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2720.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但因為蘿蔔這一次也還沒講到蘿蔔因為蘿蔔要進入預算之後才有蘿蔔的問題嘛但是缺點就是如果我們把坑講得太低太小太少那以後有蘿蔔的時候大家沒有坑可以放了所以我還是拜託啦這個這個我們這個民眾黨跟國民黨的同仁們可以來支持啦就是先從預算開始討論沒問題就是坑要多大然後要多少個坑這個我們盡量可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2722.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2737.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
接近於國防部的這個期待但我們進入預算的時候我們再來拜託兩黨可不可以蘿蔔多給一點這是台灣的需求嘛好不好 謝謝蔡董他講的就是顧部長上次講的你把坑跟蘿蔔分清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2738.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2756.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對不對 一個蘿蔔一個坑那現在坑都還沒討論完 先討論到蘿蔔去了那是不切實際的 我剛剛跟蔡總在私底下在聊那如果各位黨團幹部沒有意見 我們就照徐巧欣委員的建議我們先進入第五條 回過頭來我們再來審查第四條好嗎好 我們現在進入第五條民眾黨團題的第五條國民黨團題的第六條行政院版的第五條 有關經費上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2769.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2789.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
請大家翻到附件二條文對照表第四頁行政院版本新台幣一兆兩千五百億民眾黨團是四千億國民黨團版本是三千八百億另外有關民眾黨團版本第一項民定不受預算法第八十四條規定限制以及第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2789.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2812.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
一年一期方式編列第三項、第四項監督程序第八項社會福利支出佔比例等部分先前我們在聯席審查會的時候國防部、行政院組織總署、法務部、財政部都已經表達過不同意見所以現在要請各黨團能夠表達一下意見來,徐條英委員你提了一個這麼聰明的方法,先審第五條,來你發言吧黨的幹部請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2817.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2838.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好請台灣民眾黨團先發言主席還有各位與會的委員先進大家好那我想就是說因為我們這裡的版本當然行政院院版是1.25兆那我們的版本是4000億那基本上我們覺得1.25兆其實是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2839.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2860.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就是空白授權那在不確定的條件之下那就把這個金額做一個劃壓感覺好像有一點把關嚴謹度並不夠所以我們在這邊就認為說1.25照這個說法這個做法我們是傾向是無法支持的那當然我們是希望有以發價數為依據因為這樣才有明確的數 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2862.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2875.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
項目的要求 明確的數額 那如此之一來 編列預算也才會明確 也才有把關國民 人民 納稅人口袋的一個周全的做法 以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2884.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2908.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
台灣民眾黨這個疑慮我想我試著來做這樣的一個說明如果我們立法院是一家銀行的董事會我相信大家這個年紀應該有買過房子我今天如果你要自己去蓋房子的話我今天要向銀行來借一筆錢向立法院說我要1.25兆設定一個叫最高限額抵押 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2910.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2933.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
銀行不會給你1.25兆銀行一定是你建造執照出來了我給你個500萬你地下室挖下去了我給你1000萬你蓋到三樓了我再撥給你2000萬那也就是說呢這整個軍貨的條例在這個1.25兆裡面他是這樣的做一個匡列不是做一個匡列以後呢愛花什麼就有什麼沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2934.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2957.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
沒有 也就是說總預算裡面其實才是真正在做監督啦實質上 不是總預算 就是那個軍購的預算送過來以後立法院再來審核說雖然我已經匡列了一筆 像銀行一樣匡列了1.25兆你到銀行去借了1.25兆你不要以為說你那個債權債務就是1.25兆它0也有可能是0 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2961.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2985.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我銀行你設定地我要借給你1.25兆了你可能一毛錢都拿不到 為什麼因為你根本就沒有動工啊你根本就沒有見質之道沒有送過來啊你地下室沒有挖下去啊所以我是這樣子在想說因為整個國防的一個建軍裡面大家如果都體認到說這件事是非常重要的對整個國家的一個安全是重要的國防部也好不容易真的是盤檢了兩年多這兩年多裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2988.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3006.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
真正國家戰略戰力的一個需求國防部我們的部隊哪一些是最重要的應該不是各黨團知道各黨團應該是來把關人民的民脂民膏你不應該給我浪費掉可是呢我們去指導國防部說國防部你這個不好不要買這個買那個比較好或那個比較淺或那個比較高倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3010.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3028.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我認為我們各政黨之間是不是可以稍微寬帶讓他們去發揮他們的一個專業把預算把關 這是我們的專業 也是我們的職業可是國家戰略 國防的需求現在你問過陳永康 我就跟你說陳永康 陳將軍 我就笑話要聽你的問題是你講的跟陳永康跟我講的都不一樣 以上謝謝莊 莊書記長現在國民黨團 請問哪一位代表發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3040.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3056.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
許宇珍委員請發言謝謝主席其實針對這個部分我想其實國民黨的部分我們其實比較堅持就是要對美的軍事採購那當然這個到底現在這個坑要多大其實就端看於就是剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3058.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3077.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我處理長也有特別提到我們現在也聽到應該有第二份的軍購的這個發架書才對那到底剛剛顧部長也提到說我們現在國民黨所列出的這幾個項目有很多沒有包含在裡面那是不是顧部長應該也知道第二份發架書有哪些項目那如果那些項目其實也可以列出來之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3078.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3107.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那那個金額就可以我們現在是3800加3800一加N嘛那如果第二份發價書假設是145億美元或多少的話那就可以繼續再往上加加到這個第二份的這個發價書的相關的這個金額那就不用在這邊討論說一些未定的東西所以我們的原則還是以對美軍購到底有沒有發價說我們才能編列預算那如果現在現在這個國防部已經有已經有的第二份的發價書的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3108.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3129.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
大概哪些項目 金額是多少的話 那其實就可以加上了那是不是可以請顧部長說明一下陳慶榮總政要表達一下我多一點補充有關於我們台灣民眾黨長團所提的第五條我們原來的上限就是4千億嘛但是我們已經多次的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3131.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3159.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
只要我們第二批次的軍購我們能夠在國安部這邊能夠比較明確的訊息那這樣的一個過程在第二階段有明確的訊息美方有明確的訊息有發價書我們讓人民知道我們要買什麼美國要賣什麼我們是已經是表達我們可以來納入我們的第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3160.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3180.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以整個來講的話對第五條來講我們整個強調的是只要美國的軍售只要肯定的一個項目台灣民眾黨是可以來調整可以考慮來納入的我在這邊也做一個明確的補充好 謝謝我們請國防部顧部長麻煩您針對第五條要不要補充說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3191.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3215.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我們金額我們就是一兆兩千五百億那有關剛剛所提到的一些項目如果有來聽過我們的這個執行規劃的專案報告應該都了解那有些我們現在沒有辦法公開的事項現在要怎麼叫我們公開我已經講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3218.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3221.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
不曉得多少遍了在場有來聽過應該知道也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3230.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3256.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
如果單單就對美軍購的這個部分的話也就是他已經在講過他要有先行智慧國會的程序嘛所以國會程序有的話我們就會進行公開嘛那我們另外我想我們在公開版也提到美國已經有正式的文件來給我們一個供受的意願表達也有我們也有做過說明在經濟專報文有更詳盡的說明好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3261.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3289.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
蔡總召發言完 范雲委員發言好 麻煩簡短二要 謝謝謝謝這個還是回到我覺得進度可能回到委員會都還更倒退啦我想上一次的協商上一次的協商在野黨的朋友們 委員們 同仁們你們期待說到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3292.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3305.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
1.25要買什麼我還在這個會議場上要求我們的陳冠廷召委回應在野黨的需要禮拜一立刻排機密專報嘛在機密專報裡面國防部要買哪一項東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3310.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3327.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我相信是清清楚楚明明白白跟在野黨的那一天有出席的所有的朋友應該都解釋的很詳細的啦所以我的意思是說回到這裡大家又講什麼叫做1.25兆空白授權要買什麼又不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3328.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3349.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我實在是這個就院長協商我還在這裡指示我們的冠廷召委馬上排禮拜一就排哪有一項是空白授權哪有一項是大家不知道只是他是機密會議所以今天我們是公開的協商沒有辦法在這裡包括在這裡我相信我可以請國防部再唸一遍給大家聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3351.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3369.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個就不要再回過頭來又再講說沒有要買什麼大家不知道所以我剛剛才會很誠意的提嘛1.25兆要買哪些東西大家清清楚楚我也私下跟我們在黨兩黨的朋友講過那你們到底是對什麼不想 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3370.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3389.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就這些國防部你們都知道要買什麼了不管是公開資訊或者機密的你們都知道要買什麼了那到底哪一項是你不要的就哪一項剛剛莊惠雄委員也講過哪一項是你們不要的嘛這樣我們才有辦法聚焦我們再來說服說為什麼這一項要你們可不可以聽看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3389.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3418.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
再進一步再來協商那些你們不要的可不可以大家進一步再來協商不然老是開口就說這個空牌授權啦不知道買什麼不知道啦那我們到底一直排這些機密專報到底是是要白心生的還是白有保庇的所以呢我的意思是說大家聚焦一點啦什麼東西是買什麼項目要買什麼大家都知道好不好 拜託一下好 謝謝蔡總召 蔡議員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3421.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3445.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我想在歐洲跟太平洋島鏈國家都在強化國防的時候我們本來就應該首當其衝就是戰力整建而且它就是個長期的工作藍白都不願意說他不要什麼可是從我們上次聽到跟你們上次列出來的部分我想就很明確從我自己的比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3446.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3448.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
先不要回第四條我們先回第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3465.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3486.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我的意思是相關的還有第六個台美共同研發那上次我們已經跟你們講不是只有對美軍購還有商購跟委制譬如說國防部就會提到說中科院等等它的導彈火箭都可以委制可是你們一直沒有辦法告訴我們為什麼商購譬如說無人機這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3487.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3500.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你們沒有辦法支持 委制沒有那就一直要限縮在對美軍購那就會把金額壓得非常的低好 那我想再講就是我們看到的民調其實超過六成是支持1.25兆的強化國防 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3502.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3522.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那還是希望藍白可以考慮就是因為它就是一個戰力整建是一個長期的工作那對美軍購然後限縮到發價書那它是一個在執行上就不是我們想要做的不對等戰力跟這個國防的自主的韌性了好 謝謝范議員那個接下來還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3524.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3547.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
陳建委你好請我們在強調台灣民進黨支持軍購這個還是在這個強調但是剛剛我們部長也提到1.25兆很堅持那我們民進黨團也認為1.25兆這個很堅持那我在這邊我提出一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3548.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3569.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那從過去幾個月來國安部提供的金額完全都會不一樣我們黨團對不起來今年3月的時候國安部提供給本黨團的各項經過的金額跟4月份公開給社會的版本金額落差就很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3570.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3592.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我舉一個例子,M109H自走炮,原來國防部給我們提供的金額是1375億後來公開的版本,剩下811億那海馬士座管火箭陸戰系統,原本國防部給我們的資料是1500億 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3593.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3619.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那後來4月份的公開版本又變成1600億那其他的就有變動 我就不作假關M19AG制走票3月跟4月 短短一個月金額就可以相差500多億那如果叫M19AG一個項目一個月就可以差500億 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3621.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3634.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那既然一個項目就可以差500億那我請教國防部請教民進黨團1.25兆的數字會不會根據也因為每個項目的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3636.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3658.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
的變動而變動何以堅持1.25兆我們台灣民眾黨已經多次表明我們支持軍購支持我們的國防項目我們也只要有發價書只要國會有證書我們都同意啊好謝謝但是1.25兆為什麼不能動你們自己M6中9A7 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3664.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3665.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
一個月就可以差五百億嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3684.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3700.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好 謝謝主席因為我想要確認在第一條的黨團共識當中是不是最後通過的是把行政院版本裡面的引進高科技及人工智慧加速擊破擊殺鏈後值國防產業打造非紅供應鏈之強韌防衛體系這些文字已經刪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3706.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3717.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
如果是確認的話 那相對應的 到現在的版本當中 涉及到金額的部分對應到了是不是 原來在我們現在的軍購的項目當中 所謂的偽製 像在無人機劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍劍 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3729.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3746.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
麻煩你看一下附件一在你的手上意思是說這個部分如果已經確定的話 那個部分的金額就可以拿到了拿掉 這是我的重點所以就涉及到今天的重點 在經費上面那邊的幾千億就可以拿掉啦好 謝謝 好 謝謝劉書斌委員我們國安部發言完畢 許曉欣委員請發言 顧部長請報告委員 張貴司市長這邊跟委員做報告我們在之前說明過 美方在撕毀國會的價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3759.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3759.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
跟發價書的價格是不會一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3763.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3791.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
發價書的價格又會跟預約的價格會有落差所以我們在第一次當沒有拿到發價書的時候我們做的第一版的公開版是以智慧國會價格為基準來做論述但是我們有特別附了一個但書就是實際的預算的需求會等到發價書拿到之後我們會做修正那所以後面發價書拿到之後我們也因為它比原本的低所以我們就拒以修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3792.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3821.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那其他的部分有調動的我們也一樣會議實際的需要來做但是跟委員報告我們在機密專報裡面我們已經把1.25兆裡面包含的二十幾個項目全部逐項的都去列舉那也一樣這是一個上限它並不是一個確切的金額後面還是要等到預算書表審完大院同意給多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3822.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3838.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那我們到時候再去執行可是這些金額進到預約階段絕對還會再改變所以它並不是一個死的數據在這邊特別跟委員做個說明謝謝國防部的補充說明接下來徐曉興委員請發言林儲委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3842.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3863.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
第一件事情我是建議國防部不要一直在講這個機密專報因為我們今天的審查是要給全民的所以是針對全民的部分我們在列這個公開的條例第二點今天不是要跟不要的問題我希望大家不要這樣切來切去國民黨也是支持合理的建軍但是我們在監督上我們分層次所以現在國防部的1.25兆是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3865.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3885.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
軍售FMS商購DCS跟偽製放在一起的那國民黨這裡的立場非常清楚我們覺得要分開比較務實大家都先耐心聽我說一下分開比較務實也就是呢我們先來處理第一階段也比較緊急的就是FMS軍售的部分那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3886.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3889.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
FMS過了之後後續DCS為之的都大家還可以再有討論的這個機制嘛那國民黨現在目前的版本我們上面看到的在這個數字上面我們是3800加N這點我也要核先續名好那是呢這個就我自己這樣子的包含就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3905.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3921.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
從1.25兆然後再把FMS然後偽製跟商購這樣子去做一個橫評計算之後大概可以算出來說FMS也就是軍售的支持全部我不管第一波第二波全部的最基本的支持大概是8000億左右的一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3923.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3950.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那裡面的這個內容也就是大家關心的第二波其實如果從今天我們大家手上有一份叫做行政院函請BLABLA審查報告裡面可以看到裡面有一些跟報載的內容有相似之處的也就是在愛國者飛彈還有NASEMS飛彈以及戰場管理系統我們一般統稱為指管系統以及第九頁的美方技術合作台美技術合作這幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3951.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3974.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那呢我的想法是在裡面我們也當然我們會堅持說要訂定這個所謂的美方授權在授權的部分定義我們也可以用符合建軍西區求對美國政府及授權體系之軍事裝備跟相關服務的採購正式通知或公佈條件者為限這個在我們國民黨版的前面幾條是有的那但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3975.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3987.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這是我剛剛講到的但在1.25兆的在條例上如果是完全不能做調整然後不把軍購跟商購分開的話那變成是說在國民黨這裡我覺得我們就會比較沒有共識因為我們會堅持說按順序來我們先處理軍購再處理商購為之然後有一些我們回到一般的預算來編列這東西它是有潛力可循的我們就講F16V的66甲 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4001.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4024.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
過去的新式戰機特別條例官方的評估最早其實是高達到4000億那後來把它切得非常乾淨就收斂到2500億就是呢飛機的本體還有必要的後勤訓練是有列入的但是呢其他有一些像是掛彈啊然後這個可能後勤體系啊武器彈藥是另外編回到一般預算裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4025.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4043.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以行政院應該要回去做一個彈性的運用回去思考吧比如我講行政院裡面有提到產線的部分產線難道特別條例就開8年8年以後產線不要了我們又要再開一次特別會議來決定說這個產線要不要繼續嗎像這種裡面涉及到600億的我覺得它回到一般常規預算它變成是一個10年20年長期的連續性預算是比較合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4051.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4054.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好但是呢可能在無人機的部分會認為說因為他有特殊的疊帶速度比較快的狀況之下需要特別調理這個我們在軍售的過了之後後續我們可以再討論但是需要溝通嘛所以我簡單四點做一個歸納第一我的建議先處理軍售 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4070.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4076.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
後再處理商購或者偽製那軍售我們要有附帶決議發價書之後送預算或是有美國的授權等等這都在討論第二個FMS的支撐就最底的這個支撐整批來說是多少那我剛剛算了大概8000億項目我剛剛也講了大概就是我剛剛所談的這幾項但是呢FMS以外的必須要回去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4094.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4123.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
你要放回一般預算的有哪一些其實真的放回預算對我們是比較好的我剛剛講的產線就是啊產線不是八年結束我十年二十年這個產線要繼續做滾動的啊那如果有再次需要提出特別預算的那經過溝通之後那再另外按照類別來做提出我覺得這對社會大眾會有比較好的交代以上是我的淺見供大家討論徐曉欣委員提出經過大概在八千億這個數字第一次出來林楚怡委員您 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4124.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4129.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
要發言嗎 還是就根據這個我們來我們來協商好嗎好 我們現在休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
6050.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
6066.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好 謝謝謝謝 各黨團幹部麻煩請坐好 謝謝蔡總統請坐特別跟黨團幹部還有各位列席官員報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
6067.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
6094.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
現在有黨團正式提出因為他要經過黨團大會通過關於項目的金額有所調整必須整個黨團大會都要通過才能做成決定要徵詢所有黨團委員的大家的意見所以我們定於5月6號下午3點再次召開朝野協商今天非常謝謝各黨團的列席謝謝國防部跟各位列席的官員非常感謝大家 散會 |