| IVOD_ID |
17381 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17381 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026042240 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-23T13:30:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-23T16:57:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:26:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0e063c99885a10fc27ba87cf44814b000b1d480c4e0b4ea52bf81767d6f1b9a5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-23T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」等案。（民進黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:35 - 16:57:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好,謝謝開會時間到,能不能通知一下我們國民黨團、台灣民眾黨團,還沒有到,可不可以工作人員通知一下?對不起,顧部長、各位列席官員,不好意思,請稍待一下,不好意思,我們趕快聯絡一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1895.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1896.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝,請坐,請坐,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1981.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1983.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
國民黨三長都還沒到啊?民眾黨三長都還沒到啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2047.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2051.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
陳慶紅總統千呼萬喚終於等到來來來拜託拜託請坐請坐另外兩位勒一起來好好好請坐請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2151.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2151.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2182.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2208.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
來 副總召 歡迎 歡迎 請坐還有另外兩位呢還有蘇理長跟首席來來來 歡迎 歡迎 歡迎還在等台灣民眾黨團好 王小曉 OK OK好 謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部也幾位熱關心的牛許廷委員馬文君委員 徐喬欣委員 黃建斌委員還有陳冠廷委員熱情歡迎我們今天要繼續協商軍購特別條 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2211.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2239.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
條例草案 在這裡再一次介紹我們今天列席的重要的閣員、官員我們首先歡迎國防部副部長以及國防部所屬的所有列席的官員熱情歡迎財政部國庫署陳署長 歡迎經濟部陳副署長 歡迎法部廖參事 歡迎速發部、衛福部、國家發展委員會、公共工程委員會所有列席的各位官員 大家午安 非常歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2241.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2267.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好各位所有列席的黨團幹部我們今天開始就繼續要進入主條討論我們就開始進行第一條的主條討論好嗎好有關立法目的的版文有現在有行政院民眾黨團國民黨團的版本那我想請各黨團輪流發言台灣民眾黨團先提出來請發言好嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2272.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2292.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第一條好 謝謝院長那關於我們軍過的特別條例那我其實也代表台灣民眾黨都要表達過很多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2294.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2320.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那台灣民眾黨一直以來我們的題目就是保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例所以我們對因應這個中共的一個軍事的威脅持續的一個擴張及為建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力的武器裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2322.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2342.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
運用同城的賀祖發揮聯合戰力以提升聯合作戰的效能確保國家安全來制定這個條例所以我們台灣民眾黨一直以來支持我們的國防制度都沒有改變這裡再一次的做一個說明謝謝謝謝國民黨團 牛許廷輝你上次有意見因為休會休息所以沒有發言今天請繼續發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2350.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2370.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝主席 這上一次就反正是名稱的問題嘛但是我果然嘛 上次不幸命中嘛上次講了希望淡化政治色彩大家針對法條的本質跟內容來做詳細闡述就好那當然就被場外委員無情攻擊但我想該講的話還是要講然後我想了一個方法 大家參考一下因為現在三個版本文字各有落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2371.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2390.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
後來我回去找了一下過去幾次我們國防的特別條例包含什麼戰機等等強化陸海宮特別條例它的寫法是這樣的是為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要後面建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力等等等等等等所以我覺得用為因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2391.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2401.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個跟過去行政院各個提出來的版本文字是一模一樣的沒有政治色彩然後我覺得是比較有機會拋出來看看有沒有機會三黨達成共識的以上供大家參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2406.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2428.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
官部的部分跟上次協調的時候的那個說明是一樣的就是說就第一條的這個部分重點是在於國民黨的版本是只限於透過對美國政府及其授權體系軍事裝備與香港服務採購那就這個部分我想我們整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2429.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2447.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
整體的這個不對證這個還有強化防衛韌性的這個採購特別條例的應該不只限於美國政府的一個軍事裝備及相關服務案的採購所以像這一個部分再請各位朝野委員能夠斟酌就這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2449.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2477.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好 謝謝顧部長的說明那個民進黨有沒有要補充說明第一條立法目的莊惠雄委員請謝謝院長還有在場所有的協商代表你看嘛我們上次那個這個整個軍國條例我們名稱的最後我們就採取台灣民眾黨家嘛其實你如果看台灣民眾黨家是大家都給你尊重啦那你跟行政院版其實哪有什麼不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2478.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2496.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那以第一條來看的話,我看大家也不用這樣糾結啦你去把它看,其實前面都幾乎講得差不多嘛你說因應中共軍事威脅,持續擴增台灣民眾黨你也跟行政院的提案一樣國民黨你就認為說,這叫做因應國際情勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2501.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2520.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
的一個變化這個範圍好像比較寬了好像說台灣的威脅除了中共以外好像還有其他的國家啊對台灣因為有軍事上的一個脅迫這個是深謀遠慮啦看得非常遠這也是一件好事啊但是我們其實是在聚焦啦我很不客氣的講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2522.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2542.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第一條 乾脆就寫四個字 我都可以這樣講保護台灣 都一樣 四個字其實幾乎都可以含瓜所以我的意思是跟政黨之間 我們是不是也尊重國防部你認為國防部在第一條 行政院的院版哪一個地方沒有把你的含色進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2544.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2570.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
來改這個 我們糾結在這裡才比較有意義嘛不然否則 院長你看這個第一條其實是各個政黨裡面文字敘述不一樣而已 含義 精神那幾乎都是相同啦我看今天Q&A很好啦 很好喔大家就來這裡有心想要解決問題我們第一條是可以不用糾結 我們就都差不多嘛 精神意義一樣除非你認為國安部提出這個案子是文藝不通 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2571.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2588.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個好像是國安部都沒有唸書這個字寫的比各黨團都不好那我們就不踩他們不然如果是大家覺得可以的精神差不多的話是不是可以來就按照行政院的版本得屌這個不是深水區啦這個只是一個精神而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2593.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2595.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
謝謝主席大家午安就第一條的部分我們當然如果說就院版要剛剛其實劉委員也提到在我們過去其實有兩次在特別預算裡面是針對國防預算的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2608.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2612.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那如果說因應敵情威脅我想這個可能大家都可以接受因為我過去也是這樣寫那另外在國民黨黨團的提案裡面有特別提到因為我們現在很希望在有限的預算底下我們怎麼樣去確保我們武器的獲得或者我們相關設備武器裝備的獲得其實是比較有保障的因為像最近也發生可能我們一開始覺得是跟美國合作可是後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2638.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2661.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
卻是拉脫維亞這樣的國家他們提供的一個合作我想這個如果在中間有這樣子的變化對我們的獲得其實是不太有保障所以再加上我相信所有的委員都非常的信任美國以及美國政府它授權體系的軍事裝備以及相關的服務採購這個應該沒有問題所以我們認為這個部分應該要把它加進來謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2668.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2675.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
說馬文君委員還是回到劉委員許廷所提的為因應敵情威脅如果回到劉許廷委員這樣一個建議的話台灣民眾黨團跟民進黨團有意見嗎好請劉委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2684.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2705.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席我補充說明一下這個我自己的提出來的idea是前面改成剛剛那一句話大家都知道了嘛後面我是用民眾黨的版本啦但如果國民黨黨團這邊對於要不要把美國加進去我們就再商量一下那一樣我覺得大家我只是丟一個想法嘛這個拋磚引玉大家集思廣益目標還是達成共識啦我希望這一條可以趕快把它進行完畢 以上好 徐小新委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2710.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2736.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
呃 我的建議就是說其實第一條齁 那我們因為應該是這樣說因為我們在上一次的協商的時候我們針對這個名稱的部分是採取了台灣民眾黨團的提案嘛所以國民黨黨團的提案是因為我們在名稱的時候就有寫到對美軍事採購所以在第一條的部分那必須得寫到對美不然的話我跟我的名稱上面我在第一條上我就不太合 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2736.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2761.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是因為現在我們的名稱是採用台灣民眾黨黨團的提案所以我的建議跟劉許廷委員比較相似就是說應該除了我覺得因應中共軍事威脅它當然是其中一個但我們今天要厚植國防實力的理由有很多包含我們整體第一島鏈上面可能的軍事威脅其實都是我們為什麼要提升國防整體性能的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2762.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2774.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以中共軍事威脅是一種但是整體國際情勢它才是真正能夠包含整個為什麼我們要強化防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的整個主軸所以我的建議跟劉詠琳委員是一樣就是說我們是因應這個敵情等等的就按照過去的特別預算的這個寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2780.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2808.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那後續的話我覺得我們也可以在這個部分不要花太多的時間那就同意這個台灣民眾黨團的版本那這樣的話我覺得名稱跟第一條也能夠比較對上那換句話說就是台灣民眾黨黨團的第一條因應中共軍事威脅這六個字拿掉以後改為因應敵情威脅極迫切國防需要其他都不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2810.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2827.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那這樣的話,台灣民眾黨團、民進黨團有沒有意見?如果沒有意見,我們就...如果要...本來我是蠻支持那個小新委員跟牛委員的意見啦只是我跟他們只有小小的差異,就是應該用行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2829.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2841.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
行政院版改那個紐巡庭委員的意見如果一定要用民眾黨的版本改我希望民眾黨的版本一定要加進後職國防產業這一個段落 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2846.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2869.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那你就把國民黨的尾巴接上去了行政院的頭國民黨的尾巴行政院版還有一個跟民眾黨不一樣的地方就是後面它有後職國防產業那我們會希望後職國防產業對台灣是好事就產業面是好事就社會跟國防的韌性也是好事那這個徐議員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2874.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2889.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個蔡總長我跟您說明一下就是說因為呢我當然是支持後職國防產業但是因為在這一條上面處理這個事情的話那就會牽涉到後面的條文所以如果我們在後面的條文那大家有意見不一樣的地方而我第一條這裡已經通過會很麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2891.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2907.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
對所以如果這樣的話就變第一條也得保留那如果我們覺得第一條能夠我們不再生水區我們就盡快讓他通過是不是我們就按照這樣處理我再解釋一下那個就是說我們這樣列是比較比較寬的協法那後面如果大家後面的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2908.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2925.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
可以有涉及到後職國防產業的部分那前面的條文已經有了那後面在後面如果處理沒有如果沒有的話假設表決沒有那沒有就沒有嘛但至少不能有了就又前面沒有這個這樣大家懂我的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2926.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2926.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第一 國際敵情 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2947.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2963.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
敵情威脅以及迫切 其他不便往下推前面這個部分我沒有意見啦就後面因為這個也會牽涉到我們後面可能要討論的因為我們這一次好像特別條例在國中兩黨大概的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2964.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2981.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
大家討論的結果是比較傾向說是對美採購的部分所以就這個部分如果說我們把美國政府跟他授權的體系把它加進來我想其實也可以確保我們在獲得的時候是比較有保障的所以我們才會主張其實應該要把這個加進來那現在學委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2987.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3016.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我想請教一下這個蔡永昭就是如果說您覺得這個後職國防產業這幾個字是特別關鍵的那假設說在民眾黨的版本裡面加在這個發揮聯合戰力鬥號後職國防產業鬥號以提升聯合作戰效能後面一樣這樣是可接受的嗎我的想法大概跟你很接近我覺得各位提的都非常好把它加進來都非常好可是呢刻意去把它去掉了就不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3017.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3037.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你像譬如說你說我聽完你們說為了因應國際局勢嘛這是好事嘛但刻意去把它刪掉說因應中共軍事的威脅持續擴張我覺得沒必要啦因為我們今天為什麼要有這個軍購條例的原因就是真的就是要因應中國持續的擴張對台灣的威脅嘛各政黨把這個放進去喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3043.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3048.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
不會兇啦 不會兇到你啦這將軍你也很清楚嘛 你當一輩子的軍人你怎麼會不可能不知道說我們真正最大的威脅是來自於中共持續武力的一個擴張呢但是各位認為說可能不是 可能還有別的你要因應國際的一個情勢 我也贊成 把它放進來可是要放進來 如果你可以去把它說因應中共軍事威脅 持續擴張去把它刪掉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3067.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3073.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
又好像我們在閃躲什麼又好奇怪我們就開宗明義來講的話這一題喔立法院本來就是要跟社會對話那社會上我們台灣民眾感受到最大的軍事威脅當然就是中共的一個軍事的一個威脅嘛那你要把還有因應國際局勢進來很好啊我們現在就是把它加進來啦啊不要用刪去的啊你用徐曉新委你提那個我很贊成啊要後面那個要加進些什麼很好啊啊可是刻意去 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3096.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3119.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
排除把說原來的整個軍國條例就是要因應整個中共軍事武力持續的擴張對台灣造成的一個威脅我們把這個去劃掉以後大家拿起來對會覺得說我們刻意要排除些什麼這樣對大家可能也不好啦好不好好 謝謝那個徐小英委員您剛剛所說的那個把它變成文字化一下給我等一下念一遍徵詢大家的同意好嗎好的好的在過程中 女委員可以繼續發言請發言謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3125.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3141.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個蔡英文時期立法院徵訂新式戰機採購特別條例第一條立法理由寫為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要後來提出的海空戰力提升計畫採購特別條例第一條立法理由也是寫為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要那時候你們怎麼不寫中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3142.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3166.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
啊現在突然要寫現在是幹嘛所以我才講嘛你用一個相對中性的詞重點是這些內容嘛所以我講今天你要做對照你不應該拿這些東西做對照你應該跟過去行政院提出來的版本來做對照還是說我們現在就是有心要炒作這件事要升高對立的情勢這樣從外交的角度來看不見得是好事我很持平很客觀的在這裡做這個提醒那如果連第一條我們都沒有辦法達成共識那就只好保留了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3168.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3172.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第一條大家今天氣氛也都很好然後呢其實現在也是綜合了就是剛蔡總召所堅持的幾個後職國防實力的部分也綜合了民眾黨團的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3190.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3218.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
大概的脈絡然後呢國民黨在這邊呢其實也都配合了然後再加上前面的所謂的因應敵情這個是過去特別條這個特別預算的都是這樣子的寫法我覺得也沒有不妥那如果在這個事情上面大家能夠就還沒有到深水區就讓他通過我覺得是比較好的否則的話那我覺得國民黨在這邊也都配合各個政黨非常多了那如果都沒有辦法的話那就只能把它保留那我覺得第一條就這樣保留有點可惜以上建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3218.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3247.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 林主委謝謝 林主委請發言我認為因為反正現在文字已經出來了那是不是把文字讓大家看一下之後最重要的還是看一下國防部會 會 會因為我覺得基本上它影響到的是後面我們真的就是幾個項目跟欄目當中我們到底是不是要把它放進特別條例裡面所以我的建議只是趕快把它文字化然後國防部也要發表一下那個等一下文字出來以後我們會請國防部表達意見大家請放心來 范議員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3249.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3249.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3250.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3279.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是到底要不要直接點出中共還是寫敵情就好那這部分我也是尊重國防部的意見那我只是看起來說行政院版有名指中共民眾黨版也有名指中共那只有國民黨一版沒有寫中共那如果就尊重多數意見的話其實因為這幾年的情勢又跟蔡英文總統的情勢不太一樣那個中共的軍事威脅是加大的那如果本來就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3279.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3286.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
然後特別刪掉的確有莊瑞雄幹事長講的覺得有點敏感不過我也樂見剛剛徐曉欣委員覺得可以把後職國防產業放在民眾黨版的發揮聯合戰力的後面我覺得這樣蠻好的就是能夠寬一點那聽起來就是大家並不支持要把美國政府採購放進去因為這樣又太限縮了那我想以上意見那我尊重那個國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3308.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3323.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好 謝謝范議員 等一下馬上就把文字稿差不多出來了請大家看一下 我們再請公安部表達一下意見剛開始第一條會有一點 討論大家意見比較多一點慢慢往前推進會比較順一點我們每次審法案的經驗都是這樣子 大家請稍安勿躁 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3350.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3373.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 各位黨團幹部請聽一下因為在印 我先用口頭我用口頭來唸一遍請大家聽一下 然後表達意見我們第一條因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要為建制可保衛國家安全之極強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後執國防產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3377.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3383.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制定本條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3392.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3398.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我剛剛沒聽清楚厚植國防實力還是厚植國防產業厚植國防產業小心你這邊剛剛提的是國防實力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3412.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3432.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我提一下 這個東西是剛才 我回說一下 這個東西是蔡奇昌總召建議的說想要把行政院裡面的後職國防產業加進來那但我們這邊的要求就是說 那我前面的要按照過去的寫法是為因敵情威脅就是大家互相做一個 就是低調嘛 大家互相做一個比較 大家互相有理的這個協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3435.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3448.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
但是當然就是說如果對於我覺得是這樣子的對於前面這個如果大家還有這麼多意見那後面也沒有必要就是後面也沒有必要按照蔡啟昌總召的想法去處理了所以這個是跟這個慶紅總召講一下這個剛剛的脈絡謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3451.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3453.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要 為建制可保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3470.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3497.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
國家安全及強化不對稱戰略之武器裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰略後職國防產業以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制定本條例知道第二個位我們先把它撤掉只有一個位一開始就位因應國家剩下就是建制可對第二個位我們就把它拿掉那這樣的話各黨能幹嗎請國防部表達意見可以嗎請顧部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3501.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3528.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我如果剛剛聽得沒有錯的話文字上是我應該是說未因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要然後後面那個未沒有了就建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對陣戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後質國防產業以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特質基本條例是這樣嗎是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3529.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3547.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那就我這邊來看的話呢它這個運用重整嚇阻下面的那個發揮聯合戰力跟下面再往下的那個以提升聯合專效能事實上是有點感覺上是有點重複的感覺吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3549.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3567.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
大家不會覺得嗎就是說一個是發揮聯合戰力換句話說你把以提升聯合作戰效能給拿掉了就是發揮聯合後職國防產業確保國際安全如果是不是能夠運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後職國防產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3575.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3600.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
然後提升那個聯合那一段就拿掉確保國際安全提升聯合作戰效能也是我們原來就有的啦我只是講說前面的花威聯合戰力跟我們原來行政院版的它是運用這個從城攔截網打到台灣引進高科技及人工智慧加速擊殺聯合作戰它有三個一個部分那這個能不能有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3608.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3621.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我建議一下為因應敵情威脅及破解國防需要建制可防衛國家安全及強化不正戰略武器及裝備運用從人嚇阻強化防衛體系後質國防產業以提升聯合專案效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3629.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3632.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我覺得國民黨的版本裡面本來就有後子國防實力 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3645.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3668.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
整個後子國防實力它的包括的一個面向範圍而且是真正的讓我們提升我們台灣的國防這樣的力量那你單純的把它包括在一個產業齁那跟我們的整個立法的一個精神所以我在這邊台灣民眾黨講團還是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3671.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3695.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們同意來增加但是從厚紙國防產業我們把它修正為厚紙國防實力實力包含性比較大比較廣那請問一下就是說如果說這個配合上剛才這個顧部長講的那一些然後再把這個產業改成實力的話會是怎麼樣的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3698.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3721.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們現在修正,大致上我來念一遍應該是因應敵情威脅,第二個我也拿掉,建制可保衛國家安全等等再來運用重層嚇阻,強化防衛韌性,厚植國防實力,以提升聯合作戰效能,確保國家安全特制定本條例我想民進黨、台灣民眾黨團、國民黨團還有國防部應該都沒有意見吧因為這個把國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3729.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3733.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
還是希望厚植觀光產業這個意志能夠放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3736.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3756.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
不好意思部長我詢問一下您剛剛就是在前一輪的時候有講一段是什麼就是你前一輪的時候有講一段那個是什麼呀剛剛沒有記到不好意思剛剛院長已經有把它納進去了就是運用重層嚇阻強化防任體系強化防衛任性嘛是吧強化防衛任性後子國防產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3764.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3772.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那如果說是強化那如果綜合就是民眾黨這邊然後跟這個部長這邊就變成強化防衛任性厚植國防實力呢就是大家對於厚植國防產業這一件事情因為我在我們國安法裡面本來我們就是要強調國防自主強化厚植我們國防產業把我們國安法的意旨把它納進來我不覺得這個在第一條裡面顯示這樣有什麼不好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3792.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3818.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
沒有沒有我們沒有覺得不好只是說因為現在各個黨大家有不同的內容嘛那我們只是在說是不是說大家參照不同的這個意見可以把它整合在一起變成一個大家有一個共識所以大家其實多多少少你看本來國民黨裡面有一些的現在我們也沒去堅持嘛那本來民進黨有一些的那可能行政院版本的那也做一些調整嘛所以我的意思只是說如果像剛剛部長有特別講說他希望可以放入強化防衛任性那也OK啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3820.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3836.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那這個部分的話那後面這個陳青龍總召民眾黨這邊認為國防產業變成實力那是不是這樣子大家可以尋求一個就是大家的一個共識我的問題是這個沒有反對說要不能放產業兩個字謝謝我先來唸了來蔡總召請蔡總召謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3842.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3857.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
剛剛徐委員所講的我回應他是說我非常跟他的意見幾乎是一致的那為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我們都很清楚知道國防產業基本上我們台灣除了半導體產業AI產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3859.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3881.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
如果未來因應著讓我們國家更安全台灣更有軍事上的實力那國防產業的發展不僅對國家的安全台海的和平有幫助更重要的是我們又可以多一個在經濟上可以讓我們的中小企業因為投入了國防產業的生產其實對我們的經濟發展產業的發展其實幫忙很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3885.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3904.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我也知道因為可能或許民眾黨在後面的這個談到金額的時候或許他們對於這個強化國防任性也就是我們國防自主國防自治的部分或許有不一樣的想法所以我剛剛跟小新聞解釋的時候我就先講到我們先把範圍擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3906.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3926.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
因為最後要怎麼通過哪一些或許我們最後也不能達成共識那個金額的部分也不能達成共識那或許後來這個民眾黨也會被社會或者被民進黨說服你們也覺得適度的國防自主能夠讓我們的國防產業得以在台灣生根發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3927 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3952.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
或許你們也會最後會覺得這個很重要所以我的意思是說在前面的裡面其實它不是它不是這個這一步法這一步這個特別條例的核心嘛所以剛剛才會跟那個徐曉鑫委員達成一個共識他也支持說產業先放因為最後那個金額要不要做還是還是大家要來討論嘛所以呢把產業放進去我認為對整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3955.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3980.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
思維上面我覺得會更完整對我們的國防自主跟產業的發展其實都是多面向的幫忙這個也是展現我們的態度所以我的想法基本上是這樣子各位黨團幹部讓我現在已經發到各位手上了容許我再念一遍如果大家還有不同意見再發言好嗎麻煩請國安部顧部長手上也有一份給國安部顧部長有一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3982.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4010.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻強化防衛韌性後值國防實力以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制令本條例各位黨團幹部如果都同意這樣一個修正的話國防部副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4012.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4031.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我是建議就是參照大家參照就後職國王實力能不能前面加個後職國王自主實力那不要外購嗎那個我想我們就針對這個,好請專委請,請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4034.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4047.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
院長還有各位協商代表,我看大家剛剛哄堂一笑行政院光不提出這樣的一個版本,它是花了那麼久的時間去盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4050.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4072.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那其實到最後你說這個條文會差距多大 也沒有啦 大家談得很有共識了嘛但是呢也不要忘記啦 國安部提出來應應整個國家的一個需求條文裡面讓國人去感受到各個政黨來支持我們共同的國家 而且是國防的一個自主啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4073.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4100.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我覺得這一點是值得應該是敬佩的啦我反而覺得核心就是要國防來做一個自主我們就是沒資料 不然要跟別人買我們看有資料 搞不好我們自己的國防產業可以有辦法來自主以外然後又變成 形成一個產業那又是一股很大的一個經濟上的一個力量所以我認為 顧部長這樣說把國防自主 加那個自主兩個字齁應該是我 我認為應該是各黨大家一起來支持是好事好 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4103.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4103.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好 請長話短說 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4105.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4133.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
是 是 我剛剛本來想的是後職國防實力前面加產業級這三個字喔因為剛剛幾位都說並不反對產業那有國防產業級實力其實就兩者都有喔那當然 顧部長的那個自主我覺得可能更好喔因為不管怎麼做我們國防要有自主的實力降低依賴我想這個跟防衛韌性喔是這一次很重要的主題所以你同意顧部長的嗎你同意顧部長那個 對好的好 謝謝喔林培強委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4135.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4151.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我會認為說直接這樣子目前後職國防實力比較難刮所有的這些大家的需求而且特地去講說國防產業國防自主那後職國防實力這才是我們這個條例應該做的而且這是特別條例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4152.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4165.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
特別條例有些東西如果該常態預算就該常態預算特別條例應該是針對特別的需求才做出預算編列所以我對於這個國防實力我表示我覺得這樣就夠了製組不用加 你覺得不用加好 馬文君委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4168.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4186.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個部分我們也是認為因為包括這一次特別條例裡面很多的經費都是用買的所以其實如果把自主加進來反而是自相矛盾自打嘴巴我們後置國防實力其實已經涵蓋比較多它如果我們的國防實力可以增加它的面向是所有的產業它不是單一的產業國防其實它牽涉到非常多的產業包括半導體都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4193.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4208.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以其實產業加不加進來我覺得這個可能只是為後面要鋪陳而已後職國防實力才是條例制定的根本所以我們希望不要再多加一些可能比較會延伸問題的一些次序台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4210.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4229.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
現在國民黨團希望就直接照剛剛所念的後職國防司令那國防部希望加自主自主司令民進黨團同意但是現在國民黨團有不一樣版本但是顧問長請問一下如果照我第一次剛才所念的後職國防司令以國防部立場來講接受應該沒有問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4232.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4235.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
接受就這樣嘛因為它還是一個很大的範圍嘛這個不是重點嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4244.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4268.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我想重點可能會拉到後面的那個深水區裡面看看大家到底是怎麼樣好 我們到深水區再說好不好我們現在連潛水區都游不出去咧先把深水區解決 潛水區自然會解決好 我們就先定這樣 照我剛剛所念的一遍也在各位手上 第一條條文我們就把它通過好嗎好 謝謝我們進入第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4271.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4289.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們現在提了第三條民眾黨團提案第三條國民黨團提案第四條有關法律名稱之定義的條文請大家翻到條文對照表第九頁因為本條例法律名稱我們已經通過民眾黨團的版本本條我們是不是就照台灣民眾黨團的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4292.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4309.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
請 牛許庭委員請發言主要是提醒一下因為調次啦因為在委員會審查的時候因為國民黨黨版有第三條啦然後其他是沒有的但第三條在委員會的時候是照案通過的所以現在如果通過的話我們就是調次一併處理就是第四條然後部隊辦理經行政院核定採購第五條鎖定項目之裝備啦這樣順下來會比較順一點以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4317.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4324.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們最後會順這個調適,沒有問題那顧部長要不要補充說明一下如果沒有意見我們就照台灣民眾黨團所通過第三條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4353.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4376.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
第三條應該是國民黨版本就是在委員會的時候我們就有現在就是說要注意的當然就是說現在如果要變成國民黨原來的第三條通過的話這個第四條以外這裡面有一個辦理行政院核定採購的那一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4377.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4404.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
第幾條這個可能也要改了就變成要...內文也要改了就變成第五條了我們到最後會議一起再順過來再請再跟顧部長還有各黨團來交換意見那內容部分知道台灣民眾黨團通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見,好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4411.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4423.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們現在各位黨團幹部我們進入第四條行政院提案的第四條民眾黨國民黨團提案的第五條有關採購項目的條文這一點要請各黨團來踴躍來發言一下那 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4448.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4473.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
行政院的項目比較多麻煩請國安部簡單說明一下我們各黨團跟我們聽一下然後請各黨團準備發言 謝謝行政院版本的第四條民眾黨版本的第四條以及國民黨版本的第五條那這個就涉及到有關這個在條例裡面要如何來寫這個採購的這個項目那麼行政院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4478.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4501.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個案裡面已經說明就是說在條例跟預算分隔的情況之下條例是在講這個我們要做的一個能力建構的項目所以我們會把它就是單純就會寫說精準火砲遠程精準打擊飛彈等等這七個大類這樣子那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4502.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4526.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
其他的兩個版本都是已經特定去寫到某一個案的這個精確的數字或者是精確的這個案項那就這樣子的一個寫法我想是混淆了條例跟這個預算案的不同所以我們是認為還是要採這個要建構的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4532.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4555.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
能力的項目到底是什麼那這樣子來寫會比較合乎條例的這個寫法那預算會按照這個所要建構的這一個能力項目然後再去提出相對應的預算這樣顧部長講得非常清楚那各位 哈林村委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4557.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4564.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
謝謝主席其實事實上我們本週其實也開過了一次的機密會議那麼之前其實也開過了那麼在前兩天這個國防部也針對機密會議當中公開了這一個可以公開的這個版本的強化國防任性及不對稱戰力的執行報告如果在公開的版本我想其實現場的委員應該也 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4579.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4593.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
都可以拿得到他就有針對細部把國防部為什麼列出七大類的原因包括內容那麼其實在可公開的版本當中呢是已經把一些具有機敏性的把它遮蔽掉了那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4594.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4602.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我相信現場的委員如果需要其實是可以看得到內容的這也是為什麼其實需要召開機密會議給現場的所有的委員能夠了解那國防部其實也把為什麼要用這個方式來先訂定條例因為剛剛承接部長所說的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4612.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4640.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們在做的現在是條例而不是預算回到預算的時候我相信這些可以公開的包括數量內容以及我們武器的部分都可以那所以我本席是非常支持就是國防部跟行政院所提出來的第四條的原因是因為其實在這份報告當中為什麼會這樣定然後會是哪七大類其實是非常清楚的所以我認為其實如果我們討論要有效率然後必須要有一個推展的話啦我覺得因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4642.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4660.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是公開的 朝野協商那可是這個內容又有部分是機密那我會建議啦就是稍後如果在內黨的委員有什麼意見上面覺得哪些部分不需要的話是不是可以休息一下我已經把答案都講出來我就喊休息好不好好 總統委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4662.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4690.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
國民黨團謝謝院長各位協商代表來看一下行政院版的第四條跟國民黨的第五條還有台灣民眾黨的第四條其實台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨你們這種寫法這不是軍購這有點像網購他們在點菜一樣那你行政院的版本它就像譬如說它就講精準火炮還有遠程精準打擊的飛彈無人機載具反系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4691.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4714.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
採台灣民眾黨跟採中國國民黨會產生一個問題就是說你這個台灣民眾黨的版本跟中國國民黨的版本就是限制住了你的授權就只有這一些了會變成綁手綁腳了就是說你行政院這個版本我就告訴國人同胞我們要建軍我們要精準火爆遠程的打擊飛彈無人機載具防空反飛彈這些反專甲 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4716.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4734.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
等等還有甚至於人工智慧輔助跟指揮管制通信的部分可是在台灣民眾黨裡面它就是限縮比如說自走炮甚至於跟你講說你只能給我買自走炮60門你海馬仕的部分你只能給我買82套你不能給我買到83套買到83套沒錢中國國民黨的部分你看這個反裝甲無人機的一個飛彈重點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4746.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4769.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
國防部去跟美國那個地方大家在談我相信這整個整個條例的一個提出來是因應整個國防戰力的一個提升啊尤其是剛我們踩了台灣民眾黨的就為了整個國家安全那我相信國家安全倒不是只有這幾項甚至於把幾門炮都把它放都把它寫出來你寫了62門你寫了82套那如果國防部跟你講說我只要100套啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4773.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4783.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
你說你覺得可以62門火炮而已我就算一算 我精準的看過了我不只買62炮那個火炮啊我必須要建置到100套啊所以這個條例的寫法 台灣民眾黨的寫法我認為是不是可以大家再來參考一下國防部 行政院的版本裡面其實是涵蓋會比較廣啦那比較廣就是說授權的部分它變得更完整了 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4802.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4821.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們採行政院的版本採取更完整的以後讓他更有彈性以後不是他錢可以亂花喔你到最後還是要送出總預算來嘛你總預算來你送出來你認為說你現階段不需要這麼多的時候再來談嘛那個陳冠廷委員要發言稍微等一下我們先讓兩個黨團簡單二要表達意見之後再請陳冠廷委員發言馬文君委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4829.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4831.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
就這個部分因為這個條例我們剛剛通過的是因應敵情威脅還有急迫的國防需要所謂的急迫的國防需要當然我們現在想要儘速通過的就是對美 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4844.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4852.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
軍購的這個部分所以其實他非常明確因為美國的發價書也清清楚楚把所有的品項還有包括說有數量跟金額他也訂出來不過我覺得數量跟金額是可以討論的因為從過去的經驗看來有時候我們覺得太貴可能還可以跟他們再做一些商討或者他的套數如果我們有增加或要減少的必要的話其實都可以討論可是他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4869.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4872.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
提供的項目是非常明確的所以我覺得應該要把它列出來這個不會像是網購因為我們看過去我們在採購那個F16V的時候其實他就清清楚楚我們要買66價的F16V所以他很清楚我們到底要買什麼你才不會我們到時候我們現在編的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4890.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4894.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那時候突然美國因為我們對他是沒有罰則的我們從歷次來看有些我們付了錢或者我們已經有需求的他沒有辦法即時提供沒有辦法在期限內期程裡面提供的時候我們完全沒有辦法所以我們希望就這個部分要比較明確如果你還是模糊的隨便他可以框很多那到時候我們要的他不給 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4915.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4933.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
他給我們是我們不要的或者對我們的戰力沒有很大的幫助的這對我們來說會是損害所以我們還是希望他在這個條例裡面因為我們這個條例很明確就是要通過這樣的預算所以他應該要清清楚楚的把它標示出來好 謝謝馬文靜委員發言台灣民眾黨團發言完畢之後請陳冠廷委員發言來 請台灣民眾黨團表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4940.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4960.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個台灣民眾黨這個版本其實就跟剛剛馬委員講的很類似其實因為現在還是要定一個上限所以我們加一加加一加就跟那天這個網部給我們的專報是一樣它還是有列了一些金額不過國防部這個金額有時候它也會稍微有點不太一樣也許等一下國防部也可以說明一下我們拿到好幾個版本這個有點小小差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4961.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4982.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那另外就是說我想在條例裡面就是我們也許可以不用寫那個就是這個的數量跟金額我覺得我們這邊是應該說OK不過因為今天等一下可能要討論那個金額可能這個部分可能還是會討論到那至於在條例裡面我們是可以把它把那個金額啦那個數量給拿掉好 謝謝你好 陳冠廷委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4982.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5011.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好 謝謝那謝謝王委員你們釋放出來的善意就是把過去不可執行的部分先把它拿掉就是現在有往前走一步但是我還是要再強調也是回應馬委員就是我們的這個行政院的版本裡面其實包含這個無人載具跟其實反制的系統等等的其實這些東西如果我們把它掰過去就是概括進去的話概括進去的話那感覺上是就跟本次的那麼立法的這個要旨也不太一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5012.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5032.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你要不對稱性那直接要我們的就是無人載具跟反制無人載具的一些措施那其實我們盡量的用比較概括性的方式才能夠確保說未來我們獲得的東西跟我們的數量是我們所希望的那如果只是像之前的這種版本的話那他只是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5033.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5052.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
就是如果說我們要升級的話那到時候又要針對這一個法令這一個條例的話會有這個微誤之處所以我們還是希望說以行政院的版本它的概括性是最大那剛才提到的會不會有我們所想要的但是送不到或者不想要的卻送到的這個問題其實條例過後預算的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5055.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5075.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這一檔完全是可以用你們的這個監督的力道來去執行但是這個條例的部分我們盡可能的要把它蓋過去把它擴大所以我們是希望這個國民黨可以來再思考一下盡量使用行政院的版本或者從行政院的版本如果你們覺得可以再調整的部分來去增加這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5076.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5093.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
好,那現在台灣民眾黨團同意不把這個數字列進去,那現在只剩下行政院版本跟國民黨團的版本那顧部長你要不要表達一下意見的話,我們就來做一個簡單的宣告好不好,你還沒有要補充的剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5100.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5129.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
就馬委員講的這個我還是再強調一遍就是說因為這個條例通過之後還是要送預算案進來這我已經一再講過了那所以不可能會是說這個條例通過以後就等於就通過了這個案子那這個案子要買多少的精準火炮譬如說我們已經公開講了當然我們跟美方這邊所談定了那美方也已經知會國會的就是M1A7的自走炮 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5129.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5144.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那但是你要寫成精準火炮跟M109A7的自走炮在這一點上面其實差異是不大但是下面有一些還沒有能夠公開的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5145.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5169.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
還有這個我們有一些沒有辦法去指明這個部分你就沒有辦法這樣子寫啊也就是說這個體力上的寫法你如果上面是寫某一個什麼東西那下面又沒有辦法全部寫那你其實最後還是要按照我們的這個我是要建議還是按照我們的方式寫那具體的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5170.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5183.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
具體的案項 具體的金額 具體的數量等等再講一遍 還是要送到大院來嘛大院不過 那這個也是不過啊那要過了才有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5186.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5190.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
其實我們可能兩邊最大的差異點就是我們其實主要這個條例要通過的是對美軍購的部分所以其實其他的部分我們不認為說因為他這些相次其實是非常模糊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5212.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5218.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那比如說金準火炮金準火炮川普總統第一屆的時候其實他曾經要賣我們M109A6可是到後來他反悔了他不賣所以我們剩下的錢全部都改買海馬斯他叫他也不退可是我們就是把所有的錢都買海馬斯我們那時候是想要這個自走炮的那他還是會有變動的可能我們現在最大的不同點在於我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5239.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5251.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
國中兩黨可能要通過的是針對軍購的部分可是現在不管國防部也好行政院的版本也好他提到的是還有其他的那其他的我們還是希望因為我們強力支持無人載具的發展不管是無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5256.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5263.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
無人機無人艇或者其他無人載具我們認為其實國內都應該要具備這樣的能量可是他不需要放在特別條例裡面他如果按部就班跟經濟部一起合作一起推動我相信我們這個產業其實是可以把它做得很好這個條例我們很清楚的想要通過的就是對美軍購的部分所以其實把它明確的列出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5281.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5300.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
就美方已經同意的或者未來可能會同意的我們怎麼樣去把那個重心放在那裡這個才是我們要通過這個條例的一個主要的核心目的所以其實不會有問題那寫的這個部分有些太模糊我們認為放在公務預算會比較恰當好 我們休息五分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6372.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6381.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部,謝謝國防部割裂席單位請坐,我們繼續開始沈破陽委員你要發言,好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6384.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6409.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
因為國民黨版的第五條 院版的第四條剛剛有一個新的版本我先講一下 因為我覺得這一條大家的意見要聚焦因為我們在委員會已經討論蠻久了所以我覺得意見聚焦的點大概就只有那幾個而已第一個就是 我們就用最新的第五條的寫法第一個寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6410.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6427.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個M109A7的這個自走砲然後寫海馬仕等等之類的這就是剛剛在爭執的就是到底要不要把名稱都寫上去這是第一個爭執點那我呢因為今天副總召也在所以呢我覺得因為委員會協商的時候副總召不在所以我想說再溝通一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6428.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6450.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就是傅董昭因為在花蓮一定對這個《馬太安條例》特別的熟悉那《馬太安條例》也是一樣 它框一筆金錢然後要去救災 救災需要什麼也是有項目的那這個也是這個三黨都共同通過的這個條例裡面就寫得很清楚我框了這個幾億元 我是要買比如說農業的機具 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6452.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6465.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
農業機具這四個字就是大方向這跟院版講精準火砲是一模一樣的意思院版第一個寫精準火砲就好像馬太安條例寫農業機具但是馬太安條例裡面不會寫農業機具冒號九寶田M109不會把這個寫上去因為你就是要買農業機具協助光復鄉你農業機具到底是要買哪一個後面的預算案會寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6479.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6494.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以第一個我覺得聚焦就是是不是就是回歸到本來的願版第一個寫精準火砲第二個寫遠程精準打擊飛彈這樣才對因為從以前到現在中華民國的歷史的特別條例都是這樣寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6495.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6515.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
再來第二個就是我們今天要加強我們的國防沒有規定一定要跟美國購買跟哪一個國家購買都可以我們的目的是要增強我們的國家安全是為了不對稱戰力這個是大家前面全部都同意的所以我覺得這個問題我上次問過這一次我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6516.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6543.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我就一直希望國民黨看誰能夠回答這個問題就是除了品項寫得不一樣之外現在最主要的是國民黨少了防空系統少了無人載具那我就問如果今天目的是為了不對稱作戰目的今天是為了要加強我們的國防請問為什麼人工智慧輔助的這個防空跟無人載具不需要我覺得回答這個問題就好因為這顯然就是一直把這兩個東西拿掉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6543.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6560.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
就是為什麼人工智慧輔助的防空這件事情國民黨認為不重要又或者為什麼明明現在那麼多戰爭發生無人載具看起來越來越重要為什麼國民黨覺得不重要我覺得這件事情一旦回答清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6560.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6583.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那我們才有辦法繼續往下好 謝謝謝謝沈伯陽委員發言各位黨團幹部還有國安部列席的所有的官員那我想顯然這一條我們沒有辦法達成大家的共識那現在國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團也融合了一個版本剛才也請其他黨團各位來看了一下我想我們回過頭來我們再來討論我們現在先往下一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6585.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6606.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們往行政院版本的提案第五條我們等一下這個剛剛擱著這個條文的我們在最後還會再回來討論好不好好謝謝我們繼續協商行政院提案第五條民眾黨團提案第五條國民黨團提案的第六條有關經費上限的條文請大家翻到對照表28頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6609.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6626.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
有關經費上限行政院版本新台幣一兆兩千五百萬一兆一兆兩千五百億民眾黨團版本四千億國民黨團版本三千八百億各黨團代表要請發言首先請台灣民眾黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6636.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6660.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
行政版本第五條好 這個臺灣民眾黨當初在提這一條的時候是以當初已經公告的這個軍控的項目來進行編列然後再加了800多億的一個彈性的空間那目前臺灣民眾黨這個我們討論的結果也就是因為現在好像有可能會有一些額外的這個FMS的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6660.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6675.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那也許我們可以邏輯上我們可以在這次的條例裡面先看看再把考慮可以適當的把它加進去不過還是要以最後的能夠確定的狀況才能夠質疑這個所謂的預算以上國民黨團請表達意見好 馬總統謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6687.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6697.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
就這個部分我們一直剛剛也不斷的強調這個部分我們希望就是對美軍購或者在可以提升即使戰力的部分我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6698.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6702.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
執政黨的委員 省委員剛剛有提到他說我們認為這個無人機或反無人機或者無人載具的這個部分不重要是錯的我們認為非常重要本席是最早 聽我講完本席是最 你才胡說八道啦這個放在公務預算裡面時間暫停 時間暫停好不好 拜託中科院馬委員 對不起請繼續發言 省委員拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6728.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6732.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們尊重發言委員好不好你等一下可以發言嘛好不好你先不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6734.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6739.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
先不要打岔好不好馬委員請繼續好 謝謝主席首先我要說明一個他們說現在公務預算只有剩下84億的上限是因為我們這兩三年尤其近三年是付款的高峰期包括對美的軍購包括有很多我們自己國防預算裡面付款的高峰期是在這三年可是後面以後就不是84億這樣子的上限所以這個部分不能誤導這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6762.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6769.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
第二點如果我們每年都可以編的常態公務預算既然認為這麼重要而且無人機無人艇無人載具這是迭代在發展的你應該在我們的公務預算裡面而且我們中科院已經研科研或者我們自己去自主研發或者去製造的至少已經20年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6786.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6806.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這些相關的技術或者我們應該採買的我們不會沒有任何的一個方向所以他在公務預算如果覺得重要早就應該編了為什麼那時候沒有這樣做這個反而應該要問問自己所以如果說現在特別預算放不進來就說大家不重視這更錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6808.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6811.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
尤其他們現在的產業發展 產業發展其實經濟部才是最內行的我們國內的所有的產業 科學園區各方面的產業園區做得非常好其實是經濟部我們怎麼樣讓我們自己會的量能 比如說中科院或者我們其他國內 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6830.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6834.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
自己有的一些相關技術去結合經濟部整個整體產業的發展這才是我們國內應該要推進的無人機無人載具這樣子的一個進程而不是隨便想說放在這裡然後你到底要買什麼之前說買20萬架現在突然又變成30萬架那你到底是怎麼去估計的我們看不出來所以如果只是為了要一個數字那對我們的國防的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6859.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6877.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
傷害其實反而會造成更大的影響所以我們才說就可以在立即通過的部分不要把那個未確定的因素把它放進來這樣會很清楚如果真的有必要你另外再用其他的特別條例不是只有一次而已啊我們過去在買F16V的時候其實是2019年吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6883.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6885.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
2020年我們馬上就通過另外一筆國防特別預算特別條例就是海空戰力提升我們製造飛彈還有造船隔年就馬上就編拉所以根本沒有這樣的問題你今天如果要及時讓我們可以在軍購上面更順利可以很快的讓這個條例還有這個預算可以進行應該要把它分開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6908.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6929.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這個部分再一次強調 省委員說我們不重視或不在乎這是錯的馬委員現在你跟太多情緒被省委員干擾了重點是你現在這個預算金額你到現在還沒有表達你的最關鍵的意義還是我們等一下再來討論我們下一輪你發言再說 好不好好 民進黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6932.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6943.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝主席還有各位協商代表其實大家應該聚焦啦現在就是說你的總預算以這個軍國條例裡面你的上限現在院版的國防部這邊是801.25兆那國民黨跟民眾黨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6948.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6963.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
其實我聽到現在你們就其實就已經進入到深水區這個是核心中的一個條文嘛就大膽的講嘛你們本地開始為三千五到三千八到你們的盧市長八千一 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6963.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6967.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那我看黃國昌台灣民眾黨的黨主席你們又出來開一個記者會說你們那個藍白你們說得好啊你們的方向然後一致就8千億叫你們現在版本裡面也又4千叫你們說要多少也滴滴嘟嘟說不出來所以喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6981.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
7004.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們這整個條例裡面喔我們是在審這個條例啊那你們本來是講說發架書來了喔啊來了我再來 大家再來 日本人再來創一個軍購條例我們一直在講說這樣子反不及及 失去了一個彈性那 既然你們昨天釋放出來的訊息是說你們的方向是八千那你現在到底是要多少 你的社會有什麼我們在這個地方喔我們為什麼是強調說支持院版的1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
7011.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
7039.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
兩年多的時間我相信這個不是國防部閉門造局啦反而各個政黨裡面為什麼去講說當有一點你們把軍購把它當成是網購人家數字到底是怎麼來的可以這樣變來變去然後隔了今天你們今天講的又跟昨天又不一樣了行政院 國防部他認為很委屈他整個建軍的一個計畫裡面也不是我們自己去盤整而已一定是跟美國嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
7040.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
7044.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
大家還在那邊悄悄地說說看我們要買多少對整個國家的安全才有夠其實我認為是應該明確地表達台灣民主黨你如果不說 國民黨你如果不說這樣不太會說下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
7055.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
7077.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這樣才會說下去 我們這個整個條文就是第五條在講的就是一個上限啊要上限大家用喊價的 喊完又不...我們不曉得要相信誰講的啊國民黨已經提過太多版本了 從3500到3800然後到8100 到昨天台灣民眾黨的主席 你...你像王委員 你這樣不就等於你主席亂講 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
7080.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
7101.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我記得看了我剛看了你去把它寫一個黃國昌八千億就是你剛才說的啊你說藍白方向不是共識但是是一致的方向這也都是你們自己講的啊那到現在呢你們的版本是什麼這樣沒辦法協商嘛我們不是在護航我們就要我也一直在追 追出說國防部今天行政院你提出這個八年的1.25兆你是怎麼來的我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
7105.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
7111.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
他也來解釋啦 人家也跟你們說 你買什麼 專報給你們知道 變預算會比較好變結果你們不來 現在跟你們說 到底你們要多少你們又再說不出來 這樣要怎麼說事情好 謝謝 那個范委員跟陳冠廷委員尖短二要發言完畢 我們請國防部說明好嗎好 范委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
7127.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7146.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
因為現在也是到關鍵的那個錢嘛那我想對我們來講就是1.25兆不能打折因為從剛剛的項目到這的話那看起來至少很明確的藍白的這個共同的版本也是集中在軍購只是有一點進展你們拿掉了對美 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7147.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7173.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那可是我們國防部一直都說還有商購及偽製那我想很多人可能聽不懂什麼是商購及偽製那其實就是我們剛剛所講的包含就是自主的國防產業無人機產業那還有一個就整體來講的話AI系統的建置也不在你們這裡面就是我們講的這整個多重的防空的系統的建置那剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7174.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7193.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
馬雲軍委員一直在說你們沒有反對無人機等等講經濟部我想既然你們沒有反對的話那告訴大家經濟部跟國防部的角色非常的不一樣那我們現在要講的是我上次在委員會中已經說了連經濟學人都告訴大家無人機在 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7194.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7222.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
他懂得重要現在都是Made in China中國做的所以非紅供應鏈非常重要台灣的產業很有競爭性可是受訪的產商都已經說了擔心藍白反對也就是說為什麼不能放在平常的預算因為特別預算才有經費完整預算規模跟可預測性你有長期大量的訂單國內廠商才願意投資建立產能我們才能打造非紅供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7223.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7242.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我想這個部分除非你們反對這個目標否則你的那個錢數就是做不出這個部分那只剩下軍購那其實我們所講的商購偉智三者不能缺一喔那這非常的重要那他沒辦法用年度的預算來處理謝謝好 謝謝范議員今天我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7243.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7267.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
陳委員請發言 郵委員請準備好 謝謝院長那我們簡單來回覆首先第一點就是說在我們至少我自己的選區嘉義的民雄航太園區裡面對我們來講這一個我們能夠有自主的國防產業是非常非常極端重要的那剛才提到的這些我們各種你說軍購也好 偽製跟商購也好那從最基本的來講其實我們上一項上一個條目裡面就有含到台美合作的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7267.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7284.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
台美合作的部分如果這樣子的話我們如果生產的是在國內的生產但是其中核心的科技是其他國家或者是美國的話那請問這個也不把它包含嗎那我們跟國民黨主要的不同在野黨主要的不同就是自主這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7284.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7303.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那這一次不在野黨的這個要求是主要是軍購就是外購那我們要的還是自主的能力自主國防 你說自立自強啊自強不行 這不是也是以前這個很多這個國民黨的委員們中華民國自強不行要自立自強的自立自主的這個部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7303.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7321.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以我們一直在強調說無人載具跟反無人載具的裡面它必須不能夠只靠外購我們這一次看到這個中東的戰爭已經非常的明顯了那一些中東國家比較富有的國家大量的跟美國採購防空系統武器無人載具的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7321.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7345.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
在面臨到其他敵情的威脅的時候 伊朗也好沒有辦法迅速的從外面的拿到資源所以自立自主的國防產業是非常重要的對無人載具來說也是如此 特別是無人載具我們沒有辦法依靠 只依靠外援然後來去滿足我們無人載具的需求所以為什麼我們要有特別條例也是如此那當然 馬委員說要把它放到每年的年度預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7347.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7370.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我還是要強調 因為我們的這個新型的軍事投資 那每年的預算是有限的那在這個國防部的報告裡面 不管是機密還是非機密的報告都很清楚的有寫出來大概最多就是多84億那只有84億元的話 那你怎麼樣去扶植國內自主的產業我想這個是我們比較擔心的部分 也希望說政業黨的委員能夠來去支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7371.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7387.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
針對中小企業因為我們要在民雄航太園區要做很多的商務的這些徵詢他們所最擔心的就是不敢開產線為什麼不敢開產線他不知道明年還有沒有這個軍事的需求而所有特別是無人載具它的主要的需求來源就是來自於國防啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7387.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7412.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以這個部分我還是希望說在野黨的委員能夠主要來去思考一下這個部分那特別是中部的產業其實跟無人載具也有直接的關係所以也希望陳總長能夠 想想看台中因為你們有很大的這個工業的基礎所以對台中人來講無人載具是極端重要的那必須要把這個遇上上限能盡量的往上來提高好不好 我們往這個共識去走好 謝謝 紐西林委員請發言 沈博洋委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7414.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7435.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
謝謝主席這個面對一場協商大家總要預判一下協商的氛圍走向還有最後這個法案到底要用什麼樣的方式來處理如果有機會要達成共識互相保留一些善意我覺得總是有必要的這也就是為什麼在在野黨的各種版本裡面有各種不一樣的數字我希望大家是用一個保留空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7435.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7464.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
大家可以各自求取共識的大方向來看待這件事情但剛剛我們聽民進黨代表的幾個發言甚至就講到他們都非常堅持1.25兆的時候那很有可能的政治處理的空間就通通被壓縮掉了嘛那你在其他人那裡去講去考試說你這個數字很多到底是哪一套的版本那不也就失去意義了嗎我覺得大家要靜下心來想一想我們到底要怎麼解決現在這個僵局吧而如果還是大家只是留於立場的表述甚至是情緒性的發言那我想對於協商達成共識就不會有任何的幫助了以上發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7465.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7486.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好 謝謝 尤其是委員我們什麼要問請那我乾脆接續剛剛牛委員的發言就是說因為現在這一條最主要是討論金額我先講一個技術性的問題就是因為剛剛國民黨已經提出一個新的這個第五條然後他把幾個跟公務預算有關的不是移走了嗎那他移走的話那他現在這一個的金額是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7487.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7514.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
是要重新試算嗎還是什麼之類的我覺得這是一個技術性問題嘛對不對因為既然這一條我們要討論金額的話那再來第二個呢我想要提的事情就是說為什麼剛剛我們有提到1.25兆不能打折因為它是一個package我講個非常簡單的例子也順便回應剛剛那個馬委員講的假設我們今天要買防空的武器但是我們不買防空的系統這不是很奇怪嗎對不對就是你手跟腳都有了但是你不要那個大腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7515.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7529.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
如果有去機密會議的話應該就可以知道那個大腦也不是佔那個整個預算有多少但它就是一套的啊就是說你不可能你買了這一個可以偵測的然後你不買發射的或者你買了發射的不買偵測的結果你不買可以啟動的這一定就是一組的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7532.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7549.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這就是為什麼1.25兆很難打折的原因是因為它是一整套的不對稱戰力的設計剛剛也有講說我們很關心剛剛毛委員也有提到也是關心國內的產業發展這個剛剛冠廷委員也提到國內的產業發展無人載具看起來是非常重要的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7550.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7570.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
古人載具如果你沒有一定的這個年限你沒有辦法去刺激那個產業在各地不管在台中在嘉義去蓬勃發展所以這就是為什麼1.25兆我們覺得它是一個package非常重要的原因以上我們請國防部顧部長發言完畢以後再請馬文君顧部長請表達意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7571.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7599.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以我簡要回應幾點第一點就是說剛剛馬委員也提到的就是說未來兩三年是我們護款高峰期那我們也報告中裡面也提到的就是說我們每年能夠有軍事投資的這個金額扣掉了持續案之後能夠新增的新增項目的軍事投資的金額是有限的那我們也跟委員有做過報告後續我們並不是把所有都放在特別預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7601.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7614.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們後續的新政案包括華氏的天建二型、天空三型的續購、陸設建二的反攻飛彈的續購熊二熊三的反攻飛彈的續購還有相關的包括夜視鏡、跑花刀搶救設備等等我們總需求有高達700億 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7617.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7634.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以我們本來就是在規劃就是說我們的年度預算應該也有一個適度的成長但是我們會考量整個行政院一種整體的總預算會不會因為年度預算產生了一個排擠而 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7635.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7649.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
造成我們沒有辦法將這個我們希望的行政案項納入這個年度預算而因此一直在等這個不斷地在遞延那所以因為這樣子所以才會有希望有一個特別預算那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7652.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7677.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個國民黨的委員他有一個論點意思就是說我們只要軍購的不需要偽製跟商購的但是剛剛馬上也提到了我們海空戰力特別提升的那個案子裡面其實全部都是偽製案也就是說是屬於國內偽製的案子所以國內的偽製的案項不能夠說不重要比如說我舉個例子來講我們在公開版本事實上也提到了就是說我們航空的部分我們也特別提到我們需要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7682.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7700.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個高高空的一個攔截的強攻飛彈那這個部分也擺在我們的特別預算案裡面那這個跟其他的部分有做搭配那這個部分在整個經濟專報裡面有做過一個完整的一個說明那麼再講一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7702.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7718.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
有關這個我們有一些就是說它這個一照2500億大概這個規模是如何形成的它整個其實是跟你每一個它所形成的這個作戰的運用它是一個整體的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7719.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7743.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
它整體的規劃不外就涉及到兩件事情一個就是不對稱戰力的形成一個就是防衛任性那這兩個把它成為一個主軸讓我們來把每一個案項做一個完整的一個說明那按照現在國民黨跟民主黨所提出來的第五條修正案的結果那這個五項事實上只涵蓋了這個美國已經知會國會的這幾個案項 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7746.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7770.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
如果這幾個案項加起來,如果你就限這五項的話那事實上這個金額是相當有限,也就是大家已經都認知了大概110億美金的那個金額那這個金額顯然是不足以涵蓋後面可能再有的金額那我們還有也整個完整的去說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7771.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7784.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我再舉一個例子就是說無人載具的這個部分像那個太平洋司令Papalo已經講得非常清楚無人載具的重要性他已經一再的強調這一件事情不是我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7786.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7808.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
單純的國防自主而已而是我們整個防衛作戰需求的一個重要的部分那如果沒有建立這樣子的一個國防自主的產業從俄武戰爭看來我們完全沒有韌性可言嘛那所以這個是環繞在這個地方更何況是強調就是說為什麼國防部作為一個最大的需求單位有必要要借這個特別預算的規模預算經費穩定的來源然後能夠編列之後讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7815.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7829.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
從事這個產業的人有信心另外我要特別強調一下大家要注意到我們在機密專報裡面一再的提到台美共同研發及採購合作裝備系統這個部分這個部分也要請務必要考慮在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7831.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7856.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我很希望有來聽我們這個完整規劃的委員應該可以理解這個一照2500億是怎麼產生出來的這件事情除非你要具體的認為是說我是建議用刪去你如果能夠講你認為哪一個不重要你要把它刪 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7859.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7865.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
如果基於表決最後的立場你把它刪掉我們沒有意見啊但是如果按照現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7867.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7889.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們的立場一定還是堅持一照兩千五百這是我們的立場那如果你們的立場是認為你要刪掉那你要刪掉你要刪掉什麼項目你必須要有一個有一個講法嘛假設你因為你刪掉那個項目就表示我們不能編那個預算嘛對不對所以你要刪掉兩個項目你要先有一個前期確定而不是在喊一個價格喊一個價格之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7890.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7918.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那項目呢如果按照這第五條現在交給我手上的這個項目那我想這個金額那就是110美金的部分的金額這裡看起來就是這個金額因為只有這五項已經智慧國會的這個項目這顯然我覺得我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7920.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7947.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
沒有辦法能夠接受我們沒有辦法能夠接受那我只是一再的就是說我們經濟專報裡面講得非常的清楚一照兩千塊是什麼出來的我們希望能夠獲得一個全部的支持個別的預算項目拿到立法院來再由立法院審議立法院審議認為這不應該要編入這一個特別預算自然還可以砍掉嘛對不對那我們還是堅持我們是有整體的規劃的那特別條例的部分我們整個能力建構 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7947.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7951.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
是完整的 希望大家能夠支持這樣的完整的能力建構 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7964.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7986.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
首先我回應一下國防自主不是今天有特別預算編列的時候或者特別條例要通過的時候才有的這個已經講很久了國防自主大家都非常重視不管是我們自己的飛機潛艦還有我們所有的彈藥大家都說國防自主我們講了很久而且我們也持續在做除非我們否定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7986.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7999.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
之前大家所做的國防自主的努力或者我們認為它根本沒有效果不然我們一直以來都在做國防自主這是第一點第二個很重要的話如果像我們剛剛提到有這麼多這麼重要包括我們的無人機無人載具這麼重要的話我們今年的國防預算是有史以來最高的可是這麼重要的東西卻沒有放進公務預算到底是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
8013.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
8020.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
他把公務預算到底編列了哪些是排擠了這些現在一直叫在野黨說你們覺得哪些不重要要把它刪掉你當時覺得那麼重要為什麼你沒有把它編入公務預算而反過來問我們說哪些要刪掉我們怎麼知道哪些應該是輕重緩急這個是應該國防部去做評估的另外還有剛剛有提到說我們的防空武器跟防空系統這個都要一併的去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
8039.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
8045.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們看到這一次美方同意的這個軍售的項目不管是M109A7我們之前就自走炮還有海馬式還有這個反裝甲型的這個無人機飛彈系統然後托式飛彈跟標槍飛彈這個我們過去都有買所以不會現在突然讓它要增加賣給你的時候你才有系統的需求以前就應該要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8068.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8070.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以為什麼是這些都已經買過而且剛結案而已那個托士飛彈跟那個標槍飛彈一個是前年一個是去年剛剛結案我們都有買現在只是增購他又多賣給我們那你當時為什麼沒有想到系統你現在要做特別條例要通過的時候你才說這個系統很重要那以前都在做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8091.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8114.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
你都沒有做然後都沒有考量嗎我們的軍事的預算本來就是五年的建軍規劃你本來就應該想到啊所以就這些部分我們覺得當你在說自主的時候請大家思考看看我們最近一直提到彈藥的部分我們看到美國包括他自己去打伊朗他兩天打掉他一年的彈藥量 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8115.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8118.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們本來熊系列的這些飛彈也是號稱甚至美國都做不出來可是我們當時說因為我們的產能不足所以我們編了大筆的預算還用插隊的方式去買了魚叉飛彈就是因為他說我們做不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8133.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8153.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以當時買了魚叉飛彈那今天也是啊你在這麼急的情況之下你說彈藥其實是非常重要的這個如果是國防自主的話為什麼最近編了那麼多的預算是外購的這個反而是國防部應該要解釋清楚的如果你應該要國防自主的話到時候彈藥我們的需求量才是大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8155.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8175.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個部分為什麼我們自由產線我們以前都能做的我們現在花大錢不斷的外購當你說自主的時候應該要先把這些解釋清楚好謝謝我想這一條我們就不再討論我們回頭我們先保留起來回頭我們在二樓再來討論顯然還沒有辦法達成共識我們進入台灣民眾黨團所提的第六條我們第35頁第六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8186.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8191.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
34頁台灣民眾黨團我想請民眾黨團有關收支規劃財務計畫的條文請提案的台灣民眾黨團請發言好嗎34頁你們所提的現在第6頁第6條吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8205.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8219.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那我們的版本第六條吼那就是以本條例籌編的這個第一期的預算應該考量本條例實行期間我國人口前景結構變動的因素的影響省省規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8221.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8247.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
收支的額度及中長程的財務計畫衡量國家稅率負擔的能力以營運高齡化及少殖民化對變略預算的財政衝擊最主要我們是考量我們的特別預算對我們預算的一個衝擊的一個因素 以上好 謝謝臺灣民眾黨人提案黨團 陳孟漢文請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8250.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8268.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個第六檔當時有討論過所以我就簡要發言即可就是說因為從剛剛的脈絡順下來我會發現其實為什麼是公務預算什麼是特別預算我覺得好像有些人大家是不是那麼清楚不然的話按照剛剛很多發言就是全部都變公務預算也就可以了我覺得這是不合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8268.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8288.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
沒關係我們到二輪您再發言但是因為第六條這一邊因為第六條這邊呢他講的是你要顧慮到比如說人口結構啦中長城規劃啦但是就是因為顧慮到這些所以才訂特別條例啊如果今天我們都全部用公務的話就會擠壓到其他預算嘛什麼教文啊這個這個衛福啊等等之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8291.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8314.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就是因為顧慮到這件事情所以才訂特別條例所以簡單來講第六條就是把為什麼它是特別條例重新寫一遍但是因為它就是因為特別條例這個寫跟不寫其實是一模一樣的這就是為什麼要訂特別條例的精神這也是可能在剛剛很多討論的時候大家一直講公務跟特別可能就一直搞不清楚這兩個的分界民進黨團隊這個第六條沒有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8317.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8345.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
應該沒有意見嘛這第六條沒有增加的必要性啦那個國民黨團請表達意見好嗎 第六條 台灣民眾黨團所提的沒有意見的話我們就沒有必要性有有有 他說他已經規劃了 主席總統都已經有回覆我只是請教國民黨團請表達意見謝謝 我會認為這第六條編的其實利益相當良善因為的確不管是一般預算還是特別預算 錢就是錢那國家的預算本來收入就有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8346.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8375.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那如果說不去 如果說當然啦我們知道國際情勢的毀絕多變但是如果我們沒有在說這個比例上面有一定程度的捉捏 拿捏的話其實對於整個全國國民跟所有事情的支出跟福利其實蠻不妥的所以我覺得這個放在裡面我覺得這是件好事三個黨團 請請主席總書 請表達一下報告院院長還有各位協商的那個立法委員因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8376.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8397.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這段的文字在行政院所定的中央及地方政府的預算籌編原則這個原則是根據預算法第32條的授權行政院定然後文字完全一樣就是說行政院現在所定的中央跟地方政府不是只有中央中央跟地方政府的預算籌編原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8399.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8415.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
完全跟這個文字一樣所以現在在編預算其實都有考慮到國家各方面的需要那八年1.25兆一年就是1563億那我們總預算跟特別預算一年大概3.4兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8416.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8443.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以佔的比例事實上是不高 主席總署國防部提出來這些的時候 主席總署在衡量國家資源的使用是政府可以負擔的政府會考慮到少子化 老人化各方面還有淨零轉型各方面的需要在預算籌備原則裡面都訂得很清楚所以基於這個其他特別條例也都沒有這些文字而且現在已經在實施了所以是不是可以不用列進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8448.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8472.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我想第一個在講說籌編第一期預算我並不清楚這個第一期預算講的是什麼意思這是第一個文則問題第二個剛剛主席總書已經講了就這一個條例本身應該是在總預算籌編的時候要去考量的不是這個特別條例本身要去考量的特別條例已經在前面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8473.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8495.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
院長已經擱這第五條裡面我們已經提到了他的總量這個舉債的合計數不可以超過總預算跟特別預算稅主總額的合計的15%然後一年期以上的公共債務法 會員或創業者也要依公共債務法第五條第一項辦理所以他已經依照公共債務法跟相關財政紀律法規定已經做了一個考量了 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8496.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8509.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
在這一個部分有關政府要如何去衡量這件事情在特別條例裡面不應該再加上這樣子的一個條文因為加上這樣子一個條文等於就 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8510.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8526.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
去否定了我們前面我要編的8年一照2500億的一個意旨嘛因為這個是屬於主計總署在整個編制行政院甚至包括中央預算包括地方總預算的時候要去考量的一個事項嘛蔡總長您發言請民眾黨要加這樣子其實就是一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8540.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8566.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好但是為什麼好但不要編呢就是說因為如果這樣寫可以這樣寫如果要繼續這樣寫的話那本席作為立法院聯合國永續發展策進會的會長我應該要請他們編列預算的時候也要注意對環境的衝擊然後呢那個范雲委員對於這個性別他也可以寫進去其實大家都可以寫因為這是籌編原則啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8569.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8593.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
國家在編列任何特別預算或預算的時候他籌編原則裡面他就會告訴你一定要注意這個財政會不會排擠啦對財政的衝擊啦所以我的意思是這樣就是說如果民眾黨覺得你們對於少子化跟高齡化這兩件事情特別重視那本席給你一個建議就是說這個你可以做一個附帶決議啦來凸顯說本黨對這件事情特別care |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8599.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8609.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
否則的話這樣的條例我們每一個條例其實那你把籌備原則都要放到以後其實任何的條例都應該只要牽扯到錢都應該加這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8611.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8632.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
所以本席才會建議你不是說不對啦就是說做了這件事情可以做那因為要凸顯可能是民眾黨的這個你們特別care特別關心特別重視那本席建議你就是說不用在條例裡面你可以做一個附帶決議我想大家都會支持嘛本席一開始就跟你說好就你做附帶決議本席一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8633.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8636.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
要求民進黨團全力支持這個附帶決議好 謝謝蔡總召陳慶榮 陳總召您同意嗎我這邊補充我們會增加這一條 絕對也是有我們的一個考量那就像剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8649.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8675.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
蔡總長講的預算資源就有限大家也知道這樣的一個特別條例的籌編未來預算也會排到其他預算我們擔心的也是社福預算那我們台灣民眾黨也一直表達說這個特別條例通過之後我們有要求國安部要每年做專報 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8676.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8694.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那預算也是原則上就一人一邊嘛這個部分包括在行政總統都同意那這樣的一個過程就是整個在八年期間啊我們根據我們這一條的一個原則啊我們可以來請我們國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8695.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8709.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
對於做專報的部分及預算一年一邊的一個情況有所一個依據這是我們增加這一條的一個最主要的一個原則我在這裡做這樣的一個補充改為附帶決議您同意嗎 陳總召我們就不用條文了就不入法了 我們改為附帶決議好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8732.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8747.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個有連動嘛 有連動那我們剛剛把我們這樣的原則已經署名進行即使這個不影響我們剛剛保留我們那個深水區的部分那我覺得這個是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8748.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8773.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
也是我們台灣民眾黨一直表達著這是專報跟預算的一年一邊這樣的一個原則我在這邊是不是既然協商嘛大家要善意這個不影響未來的一個八年的一個進度我們就把它這個留著好不好這個就不要陸在意見了好不好今天請國民黨團徐政委員請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8773.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8797.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我想今年的就是我們的國防預算9000多億已經是史上最高而且再加上特別條例1000多億其實已經上兆了再加上這次的軍購特別條例未來還有支出非常多所以確實我們認為是有必要就是要審慎的規劃這個財政的收支跟財政的計劃以這個確保我們財政的一個健全所以我們是認為這條應該是要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8799.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8822.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們現在沒有辦法達成共識我們這一條條文先保留我們等一下再來討論我們現在主席我只是想提醒一下好 顧部長請這個文字不管怎麼看都怪怪的以本條例籌編第一期預算時要考量所以籌編第二期的時候就不用了他的意思是這樣子啊這文字怎麼看都不對嘛那如果你是要講的話應該是說政府籌編預算時應考量那我覺得這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8828.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8856.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我講的白一點這叫多此一舉因為你這個寫跟沒寫一樣嘛所以你要你如果你至少你現在講說政府籌編預算時應考量什麼什麼什麼那那這樣是這樣有這樣規定我是覺得特別條例的預算他已經已經已經考量8年的這一個那個相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8859.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8885.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
已經考量了所以這個文字我真的沒有問題我們現在回頭還要現在保留第三條條文起來了我們回頭再來討論接下來我們進入行政院提案的第六條民眾黨提案的第七條國民黨團的第七條預算執行及審計這個要請各黨團來代表發言首先我們請國防部做個說明法務部請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8891.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8904.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這六條我們想就是依照向來特別條例的一個慣例我們就是會寫清楚說預算的執行審計機關應依法來辦理審計那依法來辦理審計所有相關審計應該適用的規範就已經規範在這裡面了所以我們是覺得應該是這樣子寫就可以了法務部吳烈協代表請發言好嗎請表達一下意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8922.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8935.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
國民黨團請準備主席 各位針對民眾黨版第五條的第三項我們提供部分第七條國民黨版 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8943.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8947.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那針對第七條預算執行的這個監督問題那關於政府機關執行預算的監督考核還有責任的追究這個在審計法上現行的審計法上已經有完整的這個規定了那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8969.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8991.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
依據這個審計法的規定機關如果執行預算有違法失職或者是執行績效低落的話那審計機關依照審計法就可以移送檢察院來這個調查處理那國民黨版第七條的第三項第三項是規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8992.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9015.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
如果有違法失職的這個情形導致執行績效低落的話應將執行機關首長及相關主管移送監察院來調查懲戒那我們依照監察法第六條跟第八條的規定監察院追究對象彈劾的對象是違法失職的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9016.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9042.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那我們第三項草案第三項是規定違法失職有這種情形那被移送的是機關的首長跟這個主管機關這個相關的主管那我們認為這樣的規定跟審計法還有監察法的規定有不相這個不太契合的地方那這個呢我們提出來請參考關於這個事項目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9045.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9074.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
院版的跟民眾黨版的規定它的用語是審計機關應依法審計這是一個版本那國民黨版第七條的第三項是規定有剛剛講的這個問題大概目前有這兩個方案那如果是依據這個院版的還有民眾黨版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9076.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9082.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
審計機關依法審計等於是回歸現行的審計法去處理那如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9083.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9106.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
國民黨版第七條的第三項如果是要往這個方向走的話那我們是建議應將執行機關首長及相關主管這一句話是不是可以考量可以拿掉因為大前提因為公務員違法失職他已經界定了這個違法失職的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9108.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9131.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
本來就不限於他的成績跟角色他當然包括首長跟相關主管如果首長跟相關主管沒有違法失職那就不再被移送的這個行列裡面另外依據監察法的規定監察院調查處理的結果那就是彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9133.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9152.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
也是要向懲戒機關那至於是不是懲戒必須要由懲戒法院依司法程序來審理所以我們最後這邊移送監察院調查懲戒那懲戒權是在懲戒機關所以這個部分如果要採用這個版本那建議的是移送 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9154.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9166.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
監察院調查處理就是參考審計法的規定那這樣會跟監察法的規定會比較相合以上謝謝法務部的說明謝謝我們請提案的黨團民眾黨團請發言國民黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9171.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9190.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
有關於民眾黨第七條行政院版的第六條我們寫的要比行政院版要更清楚一些些除了依法要辦理審計之外我們大概對流用的部分有做了一些特殊的規定必須要經過立法院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9190.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9212.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那另外就是借滿錢那時候我們在委員會協商的時候大家好像問題也沒有什麼太大的意見那最後一個就是軍工的部分我們這個第三項跟第四項就是軍工的部分因為我們在委員會的時候其實有一些專家有一些意見所以我們也願意把這個部分暫時把它拿掉就是軍工的部分第三項跟第四項以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9218.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9219.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們接下來請國民黨團請表達意見提案的國民黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9239.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9261.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
沒有關係你可以稍微等一下沒關係請莊惠雄委員發言國民黨團請準備好謝謝主席如果按照我個人看沒有第六條也沒有關係的因為你本來你公務機關你花了預算你去執行完以後你審計機關你本來就第一個你就必須要依法去做審計嘛第六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9262.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9286.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
不管是行政院的提案啦,而且當然是行之如宜啦不然其實大家不用去爭執這一條啦那第二個啊,那個各個,你看台灣民眾黨跟中華國民黨裡面所提到的說主管機關你去依照預算法第63條去辦理流用的時候應該經過立法院的同意這一點就又有一點侵害到行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9287.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9300.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
你如果說按照預算法63條的話你那個科目有剩餘本來就可以有留用這其實是我們立法院的授權啦我們通過了一個法令但是它其實是有額度的啦20%而已啦20%而已啦所以其實我倒認為這一款這個寫來63條這個你也不用計高第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9310.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9315.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
就有一點縮小了7月31號監察委員全部都已經卸任了那我們這邊在審條例的時候大家其實是有點看不起監察院的監察院你不用這麼貼面 沒辦法你過啦國民黨我們也不推薦 民眾黨也不推薦然後在第一輪的時候搞不好就全部把它殺掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9329.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9355.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
檢察院就變空的啊我們現在反而在條例裡面又賦予它好像又一個 喔 好像是一個非常清高的一個位置那遇到什麼事情之後立法院就說 來 檢察院趕快來上環保證給牽下去 給抬下去這個有一點點又怪怪的啦所以我的意思就是說三黨再考慮一下這一條其實不用爭執啦我們就叫那個行政院辦分就好了啊如果真的沒有 你整條三條都三檔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9359.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9385.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
請證院板的 國民黨的 台灣民眾黨的全部都砍掉 我都認為這個意義也沒有很大啦以上說明 但是就行李如雨的就院板這樣提條例上我們一般本來就是這樣的一個規定其實是無傷大雅啦 謝謝謝謝莊委員那國民黨的暫時可以緩和一下 先暫緩一下我想請那個各黨團還有國安部聽一下我的意見就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9386.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9404.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
臺灣民眾黨團所提的第七條上面所列的我們保留下來到第三項把它刪掉轉為加美會期向立法院提出專案報告用這樣方式我來念一遍大家請仔細聽一下陳慶榮總召麻煩你要聽清楚喔好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9405.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9434.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
本條例所列的預算之執行應依下列規定辦理一審計機關依法辦理審計二主管機關依預算法第六三條流用前應經立法院同意本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前主管機關應就其實施成效做成總結報告並送立法院那美惠其向立法院提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9436.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9451.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這樣可以嗎?有啊,我們有啊,流用前應經理法院同意這邊都有啦但是問題是我們預算法的規定本來就是可以流用20%的範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9453.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9468.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
最後我們這邊加一句 美會期軍相立法院提出專案報告我想這樣就符合剛才王嘉祥 王委員所提出來也符合蔡總召說沒有關係 先這樣 大家先看一下 不要急著發言這樣可以不可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9472.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9484.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個流用的部分可以請那個主計總處說明一下這個部分會造成的影響好嗎當然可以當然可以當然可以好請請請發言報告院長各位那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9485.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9511.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
預算法第六三條就是規定流用剛剛有委員提到就是用途別的科目如果有一個科目不足因為你是一年多前編的所以有百分之二十可以流用的空間但嚴格規定不能流用到人事費那個預算法是這麼規定總預算在執行的時候每人現在已經將近三兆還有其他特別預算在執行的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9512.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9539.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
都有流用的彈性嘛因為你不可能在一年多以前遇見未來所有的那個科目啊不會調整變動嘛所以只有在這個現在這個特別預算條例啊才規定這個比總預算比其他特別預算還嚴格這個我覺得在那個不成比例啦不成立法的那個比例啊所以您的意思是說不同意台灣民眾黨團這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9541.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9546.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個部分我們不同意因為這個不是一般的預算它是特別條例你本來就是針對特殊的一些項目你才編列這些特別條例跟特別預算所以你如果在一般的常態的預算裡面你如果不足的時候你會有20%的流用 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9565.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9568.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那是因為其實讓我們可能在推動的時候不要自愛難行可是這個部分其實它是很明確的所以如果你要留用的過程當中因為你這個是非常態的那你經過立法院同意的編列的特別條我們通過的特別條例或者這樣的特別預算如果你要留用 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9586.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9604.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
他跟我們說很重要又是對國防國家安全是非常重要的如果你要留用照理說你就應該經過立法院同意如果他是合乎常理而且是必要的我覺得立法院不可能不同意所以這個部分我們還是要求這個不可以隨便留用 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9607.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9627.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
陳慧琳委員請發言因為我看國民黨的這個版本裡面沒有應經立法院同意他是寫上立法院提出報告那是不是比較就報告就好因為在同意的話好像有點立法行政的這種分立好像就有點被 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9629.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9639.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
行政權被侵害到所以是不是國民黨你們說的專案報告即可一定要我覺得經過立法院同意這個好像不符合常理那也不符合剛才講的履歷原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9643.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9671.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
因為這個在委員會有做過討論我想我們可以這樣子我們融合這個國民黨黨跟民進黨黨的版本第一個就是說第七條的第一項還是可以列本條例所列預算執行審計機關應依法辦理審計這是第一項第二項我們就納入這個國民黨黨人的第一項主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計畫執行並將執行進入及績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告這是第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9672.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9701.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
好 第三項這個主管機關集體就是國民黨版的第四項主管機關及以上機關因依法執行並落實監督機制確保公安預算確實投入戰略建構這第三項然後第四項就是加入民眾黨團的第二項本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前主管機關因究其實施成效作成總結報告並送立完約這樣就融合了融合了國民黨版跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9702.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9706.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
民眾狼煩了這樣子沒關係 部長請繼續我剛剛的建議是這樣子部長現在端了一個八寶飯出來了大家有沒有什麼寶貴意見我們這邊也是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9721.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9738.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
一點點稍微複雜就是說我們納入了國民黨版的第一項 第二項 第四項然後再加民眾黨版的第二項國民黨是堅持不得留用 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9752.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9769.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
來來,我們在這邊一清一調,院長不好意思啦,我這邊還是要表達我們最重要還是一個有用的這個原則嘛那應景立法院同意,其實就像剛剛我們專委員講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9773.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9786.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們也了解預算法它可以用 基本上一定會同意那我們會增加這一條就是因為特別條例我們如果能夠協商成功我們要購買的品項 購買的這些設備品項 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9792.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9809.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
基本上都是很精準的啦基本上都是很精準的所以也不用去擔心這個流用藥劑立法院同意會變成一個阻礙那當然我們部長很用心把民眾黨版本跟國民黨的版本把它合併在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9813.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9832.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是我還是認為剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個修正的內容我覺得就是已經是最妥適的我們可以來接受剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9833.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9855.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
沒有關係 我們現在讓我們秘書處這邊作業人員先做把文字先打出來給大家看一下現在有A跟B A就是我剛才所念的B就是顧部長剛剛擷取不同黨團之間大家所在乎的意見 把它文字化的處理好 總共AB兩個版本 請大家參考一下你先給第一個 你改那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9863.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9881.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因為大家在參考 所以我表達一下意見其實剛剛青龍兄你剛才說的預算法講這個流用 大家日日半年 新規預算很久了 大家知道流用其實它也沒有亂用 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9881.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9884.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
比如說反而流用大家不要去誤解這樣的一個名詞反而流用來講的話你那個整個總預算來講總Total你根本就不會去任何的一個增加流用也不是你要用到哪裡就是用到哪裡去 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9897.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9910.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這個同一個工作計畫裡面底下甚至於你那個除了剛剛那個主計總署剛才你們說到的不能留的人事費用這個部分其實連你資本門都不能留到經常門裡面去所以這一些其實是很專業的東西本地留用的部分本地就有20%20%預算法我們也要通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9922.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9950.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
你現在特別軍國的部分 特別條例裡面你又跟他講說你那個流用的不可以再經過日本人的一個通過這個其實都有一點在我看來其實都沒有必要啦所以你們才會講說有需要根本就不會刁難什麼大家會講到這個地方我是很中性的在談這個整個流用所以因為院長剛好提的是兩個版本嘛所以我想說這個大家其實不用那麼堅持啦我就再一次把流用它真正的一個意義啊來供大家做一個參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9959.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9976.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝好 我們先保留起來我們等一下文字作業完發下去我們再來討論我們現在開始繼續往前我們現在進到國民黨團提案的第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文請大家翻到第38頁麻煩請提案的國民黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9993.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
10008.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
就這個部分我們在考量到不管是對美軍購其實那時候一直有提到美方可能也會陸續有同意出售一些相關我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
10010.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
10026.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
有一些武器裝備等等那我們也希望說在這裡可以讓國防部可以有比較大的運用的空間所以特別提出本條謝謝國民黨團為了國防部著想來 顧部長你先表達一下意見 甄列第八條我已經在說明了 他現在說等到還有發駕輸我們就要 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
10035.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
10054.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
再提一個特別條例,然後再提一個特別條例以後,等特別條例通過以後再提一個預算從這一次拿到發價書的期程上來看,這明顯是緩不濟急而且這也不符合我們過去計劃預算的概念因為我們過去就是說在得到美方的供售的意願之後,我們就馬上提出預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
10055.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
10075.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那都是在這個還沒有知會國會前我們就可能送出那沒有知會國會前我們就採機密預算的方式知會國會之後就公開預算這個本來就是要讓立法院有一個機會來審查這個預算案不管是總預算還是這個這個特別條例預算應該都是採如此的精神嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
10076.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
10094.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以說他再另外提一個特別條例,就等於這個條例裡面的金額實際上就只有他們現在所提的第五條這樣的一個金額了等於就沒有任何加恩的概念存在在這裡面了所以特別條例也就是又涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
10095.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10114.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個第五條沒有辦法這樣訂我瞭解,那就只有暫時保留,反正第五條那現在請大家回過頭來看看剛剛手上所發給各位的我們回到行政院所提的第六條台灣民眾黨團所提的第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10122.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10145.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們順過條次,現在變成A、B兩個版本,到第八條,條次已經順好了A就是本條例所列預算之執行,依下列規定辦理,一審計機關,依法辦理審計二,主管機關預算法第六三條,流用前應經理法院同意本條例施行建版之日次年五月底前,主管機關應就 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10147.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10161.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
其實是成效做總結報告並送立法院美惠及向立法院提出專案報告這就是陳慶榮總召剛剛所提的我嘗試性的跟大家報告再來就是B版剛剛顧部長所提的融合了不同的黨團之間的意見第八條這條有好幾個黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10166.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10182.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
的想法都在裡面請大家仔細聽一下本條例所列預算之執行審計機關應依法辦理審計主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行進度及績效每會即向立法院提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10184.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10213.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
主管機關及其上級機關應依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構本條例施行屆滿之日4年5月底前主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告並送立法院那請各黨團表達一下意見現在顯然是A版的第二條是有爭議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10214.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10216.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
關於流用這個部分,或許我們不會去流用 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10230.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10247.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
依照我從一個法律人的角度來看就是說預算法63條它本來就是授權行政機關如果說我們在這裡創下一個先例要經過立法院同意的話其實是有一點違背了立法預算法63條的授權原則其實是有違反權力分立原則的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10249.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10269.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這個我只是,當然這不應該是我,我應該要講我光復的立場,但是我還是稍微,事實上因為你如果種下,我覺得如果說立了這樣的一個例子,以後說大家同意的話那這個流用要經過立法院同意這件事情,事實上是超越預算法63條的立法本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10278.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10289.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們為什麼會有這樣流用的一個定債協議最主要就是國防部過去有一個應該不太好的一個範例 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10291.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10313.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那之前我們立法院曾經針對國安部的預算同意他去買F16的一個戰機的預算結果我們國安部把他有用去買內雷劍那這些事情其實當初立法院也不曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10314.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10325.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
就是因為金額很龐大6月20%那個金額是很龐大的所以他會去明明我們立法院同意他去買A |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10327.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10344.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
他說過流用他去買米是有這樣的一個案例有這樣的一個案例所以我們這一條的一個流用為什麼會一個願意在這裡是因為他們有過去的紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10349.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10367.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
謝謝院長針對這一條的話其實國民黨是很堅持就是因為其實既然大家對於軍購的條例這麼的重視所以我們認為執行力絕對不能出問題所以在這個過程中的話一定要有責任追究的相關問題尤其是我們希望就是說當執行成效低於核定進度的50%的時候要將 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10369.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10383.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
執行機關的首長請相關主管移送監察院調查的原因就是因為目前懲處的都是基層人員真正下指令的跟真正做決策的首長跟相關的主管都不會受到懲處所以針對這一條公共黨團是認為應該要我們堅持要用這樣的一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10387.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10416.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我嘗試先來再把A、B兩個版本再融合一次大家來聽聽看好不好先不要急著發言再等一下針對我再把它組合一下大家再來表達一下意見就第八條這邊如果大家各黨團幹部同意公安部也同意的話本條例所列預算之執行應依應該依下列規定辦理依審計機關依法辦理審計二主管機關依預算法第六三條辦理流用前應經立法院統一 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10417.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10420.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
下面就接剛才國安部顧部長所提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10422.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10444.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
第二項主管機關依依專案列管及考核本條例第三項主管機關及上級機關依依依法執行監督第四項本條例施行屆滿至五月底前實施成效及做總結報告送立法院這樣我們就把A版跟B版融合起來然後留用的部分也照國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10448.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10466.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
放在這邊一起來併在一起這樣大家有沒有意見我想這應該我們已經請示過我們已經也請教過法治局意見這都完全沒有完全沒有權力分立的問題我們這邊表達得非常清楚可以把留用部分我們保留起來林沛祥委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10468.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10488.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
報告主席我們認為說針對這個案子因為我們過去有太多的經驗有關執行部執行進度不到位的狀況所以國民黨黨團要求有關送監察院審查送監察院懲戒的事情我們必須保留在第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10489.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10505.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
第七條國民黨的版本做到第二頁的時候有關監察院 送監察院審查有關執行進度不夠的時候因為剛剛區域政委員剛剛有提到說目前因為執行進度不佳而去被檢討的通常都是比較基層的承辦人員那你這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10506.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10534.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
林書長這樣的話就沒有辦法再談下去因為AB兩版本來想請大家看一下如果你一定要再回到監察機構那個保留的第三項的話這顯然大概要沒辦法打成共識囉大家是不是要思考一下也許我剛剛把AB兩版融合起來大家應該都能接受吧發言人您不要急著發言好不好稍微等一下大家能不能接受AB兩版融合起來這樣可以的話我們就確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10535.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10558.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好嗎如果你現在堅持監察院審計機關的話這個我們談不下去這個肯定沒辦法談是不是大家能考量一下我們就照我剛才最後一次所宣讀的那樣子可不可以副總統請發言謝謝院長北齊一直不想發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10560.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10585.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
不過這個是也是非常重要的一個核心的問題為什麼是一個核心的問題就是為什麼會用特別預算就是非常迫切非常急切要來實施尤其在國防這個方面所以呢各個政黨都是基於我們國防的要求然後坐在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10586.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10611.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
透過取債的方式而不在我們年度預算裡面編列透過取債的方式來提出這一份非常特殊的特別預算但是這個特別預算執行了以後我們必須要強調因為每一個因為就現在大家協議要通過的條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10613.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10639.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
只是考核 最後考核往往都是基層人員被考核我們以現在所發生的情況來看現在目前立法院已經通過了預算 錢已經付了那執行到現在還有7000億的武器沒有進來所以這個執行率是非常的值得商榷 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10641.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10670.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
而我們不希望在三黨大家共同為了我們國防要求需求的情況之下共同來這裡協議通過的這樣的一個特別條例結果最後在執行方面呢確實讓整個國人來失望所以必須還是要有一套究責的機制我想今天這個不管我們是執政黨或在野黨我相信這個都是很有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10671.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10700.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我想今天如果這個民進黨在演的話他一定會非常強調這個一定要入法我們換位思考這是一個最基本的一個監督的機制那如果這個監督機制啊把它拿掉了以後那到底未來這麼重要迫切的一個特別預算他的責任承擔跟究責機制到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10701.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10725.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
不過我在這裡啊我把國民黨立場講得很清楚這是當時我們提出這個條例這一條第八條的內容是因為是這個情況那我想過去民進黨在也提出了零零總總我們就不一一贅述啦從這個獨豬獨牛啊還有很多零減豬講到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10728.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10739.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那我想當時的要求是如何而我們現在都不予追究但是最重要的這是國防安全的部分絕對不能沒有究責機制我想這個部分我們要應該理清 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10745.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10768.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
現在在手上,各位現在新拿到就是我剛剛所唸出來的融合不同政黨之間大家所在意、重視的,把它併在這個條文那現在國民黨團又提出來還是要堅持它原提案的第三項但是法務部剛才廖參事也表達了一些不同的意見所以我在這裡,我在思考是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10769.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10781.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
如果各黨團能夠同意這個合併的條文我們這個條文就確定了如果不能同意的話我們就必須要休息大家再來寫上來我再來唸一下大家再來看一看好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10784.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10811.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
第八條本條例所列預算之執行應依下列規定辦理依審計機關應依法辦理審計主管機關依訴法第六三條流用前應該經立法院同意這個就完全符合國民黨跟台灣民眾黨團的要求在主管機關應立專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行及進度績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10812.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10841.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
主管機關及其上級機關因依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構本條例施行屆滿之日四年五月底前主管機關應就其實施成效做成總結報告並送立法院我想這個應該大家各黨團可以接受吧如果可以的話我們第八條副總長請發言主席我覺得這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10842.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10865.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
因為剛剛特別清楚國民黨團必須把我們提出條例這條當時我們提出來的主要的意旨必須要說明清楚說明清楚但是基本上基於意識和諧我們還是尊重主席的才智好不好好謝謝那我們第八條如果大家沒有意見我們就通過了好嗎沒有沒有沒有院長其實我要再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10867.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10893.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為我擔心大家誤解預算法63條我流進跟流出流入跟流出本來就是20%為什麼預算法立法院要這樣一個規定就是說我不要讓你增加預算我在總預算我們在編總預算一定是這樣子我在編總預算一定是編下一次的比如說我今年我就編明年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10894.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10897.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我就先編完才給你開 你預算也63條的規定是在跟你講說我在同一個工作計畫底下 你這項目我20%流入跟流出的就是只有這20%裡面這個本來就是立法院我們要求人家這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10910.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10915.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
行政部門 你要做事情 你要開支 有存的 就存這幾十% 流入流出 沒人要扯回去幾十%那我們現在又這樣的一個規定裡面 因為一個個案其實就會把過去會顛覆掉整個預算163條所謂流用的一個規定所以大家想得太嚴肅了啦這一條不用這樣的一個規定喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10934.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10940.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
本來其實莊瑞雄委員已經講了,但本席因為副總召剛剛也講了,所以本席也要表達一下民進黨的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10959.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10985.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
公務人員依法行政所以我們的預算法第63條規定20%的流用這個叫做法律那國民黨立場認為救責很重要其實本席完全同意啦我不覺得救責特別是這麼重大的這麼大筆的預算本席也覺得救責很重要但是其實如果救法論法比較好的方式應該我們要修預算法 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10986.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11011.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為監督很重要救責很重要其實不只在這個問題上面但是如同副總召剛剛所講的因為我們的重點如果今天我們在野的這些委員好朋友們如果你們能通過1.25兆的預算說實在話救責很重要特別要他在20%不是說不能用你要用之前要先來要留用之前要先來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11012.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11040.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
其實我們可以為了這一個1.25兆本席也願意為了和諧然後來支持啦但是立場上我們還是跟副總長要說清楚啦就是國家給我們監督那如果我們覺得20%是不對的那朝野應該提預算法的修法譬如說改成15%改成10%或者改成說都不行以後要留用都要來立法院民脂民膏嘛所以這個才是邏輯的一貫性啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11041.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11068.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但是如同剛剛副總召所講特別條例然後國民黨很重視所以如果能夠過1.25兆讓國家的安全得以守護得以保障其實對 我們也願意雖然我們的立場要說明清楚但我們也願意在院長的指示底下來同意好 謝謝蔡總召我們等一下回頭再來到金額部分好 我們現在進入國民黨團所提案的第八條第二階段特別條例的條文請大家放到第38頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11078.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11098.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們第八條條我們就先保留我們現在進入最後一條條文了行政院提案的第七條台灣民眾黨團提案的第八條國民黨團提案的第九條有關私刑期間這一點大家意見似乎不太一致我們請各黨團來發言首先我們請國防部簡單扼要說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11103.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11108.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
廣布提出8年依照2500億,按照我們能夠籌獲的期限分攤到8年,一年大概1560億左右大概是這樣子預算的規模分散在8年的期間在編制的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11129.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11146.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
在編制相關的預算過程當中,都考慮到相關我們籌貨所需要的時間以及交易的期程等等所以希望大家能夠支持,就是八年的期間好的,謝謝台灣民眾黨團也有提案,請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11149.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11166.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們的一個內容是我們的第八條我們原則上跟我們行政院環部的提案是一樣最重要的差異就是本條例及其特別預算施行期滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11167.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11187.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
未及執行部門必要時我們是得經立法院同意延長之行政院的院版是必要時得經行政院核定延長那我們就是立法院 法院同意好 謝謝國民黨團對台灣民眾黨團所提的經立法院延長到122年有沒有意見要表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11196.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11224.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
沒有意見我們就同意台灣民眾黨團的話我們就確定了謝謝院長我們還是要特別強調啊這個國防部顧部長啊一直在講啊因為我們也靜靜聽了兩個多小時顧部長不斷強調啊會來不及會來不及啊竟然這麼急迫那怎麼會我們通過了以後用這麼長的時間去買 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11229.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11255.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以我們在這裡是建議啦是建議啦應該應該總統任期到2028年所以117年我們已經到12月到12月應該而且特別我要把我很少引用賴總統講的話2027台海救危機啊所以要迫切的趕快通過這個條例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11256.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11284.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那我們總不能說在123年武器台來那怎麼面對116年的太海危機所以這也是蠻耐人尋味的事情所以那既然有這麼迫切應該是我們也這麼急的來審查甚至我這裡再回應一下這個顧部長剛剛所提要說會來不及我們就把立法院實際發生的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11288.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11312.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
當113億美金的第一批發價書進來的時候立法院立刻三黨同時簽字授權國防部副部長直接跟美國政府簽約在條例還沒有制定以前預算沒有編列時間先授權你來做對美國的直接的簽署只要有明確的發價書 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11313.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11342.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我們就會授權來簽署而且這是已經剛剛執行完畢所以所有關於時間上來不及的問題我想啊這個應該是有相當的誤會啊因為在看到這個期程啊到一百二十二年跟我們剛剛從兩年討論到現在都很急迫都很急迫然後最後發現是一百二十二年一百二十二年31號所以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11343.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11357.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
本席在這裡 但是我還是回到原來那句老話我尊重主席的才是我想簡單回應一下 因為剛剛國民黨委員有講到說如果國防自我這麼重要 為什麼是過去沒做好嗎那無人機這麼重要 年度國防運送為什麼沒有放 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11368.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11390.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
還有這些武器過去都有買為什麼是現在突然有系統需求我簡單講一般軟硬體每年都會常態性的採購了那同時幾年也都會大升級更何況國際情勢的變化國防科技的日新月異那國防部已經告訴大家這個站立的整件事持續性的工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11390.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11409.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以要讓敵方攻台時間他的準備不斷延後所以我們想國防部不管誰當部長這整個對國防的維持讓敵方不敢攻台是重要的所以必須要多年期除了台灣之外歐洲日本很多的國家都在這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11410.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11432.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
好 謝謝范議員 那國安部我們現在這個我們就照台灣民眾黨團的版本通過那就是本條例 就是說因為這個是執行期限這執行期限包括比如說現在已經公開了海馬斯多觀火箭飛彈系統82套的部分執行的期限它交易的期程都要 台灣民眾黨團跟國安部一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11433.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11459.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
對啊 我只在說明這是在講整個執行的期限不再講我們什麼時候簽署發價的期限好的好的那各位黨團如果同意的話我們這個就叫台灣民眾黨團所提的版本第八條條例後面就是經立法院同意延長之好不好好 我們現在休息一下回過頭再來探討保留的四條條文大家辛苦了我們休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11467.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11467.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
阿斯修錫 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
12326.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
12355.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐各位列席官員也請坐我們繼續開會我想要跟各黨團幹部報告一下也跟今天列席的官員報告一下我們本案已經經過充分的溝通還有四條保留的條文包括項目以及經費那我想各黨團之間在這個兩個重大問題上顯然沒有辦法達成共識我希望各位黨團能夠繼續保持溝通我們下星期一下午 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
12357.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
12371.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
兩點半我們繼續召開朝野協商要拜託各位黨團幹部能夠如期參加也謝謝國安部顧部長跟各位列席的官員我們今天我們就下禮拜一下午兩點半繼續開會現在散會 |