| IVOD_ID |
17377 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17377 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-23T08:30:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-23T11:40:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:09:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbe063c99885a10fc2819ba3698dbd896eb1d480c4e0b4ea52a37695131ef0079e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)
二、審查：
(一) 本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。
(二) 本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。
(四) 本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。
(五) 本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。
(九) 本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。
(十) 本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。
(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) (詢答及處理)
【4月22日及23日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:59 - 11:40:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
471.63 |
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字幕志愿者 杨洁 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
692.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
692.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
谢谢观看,下次见! |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
856.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
857.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1126.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1127.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1270.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1272.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1334.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1336.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1426.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1427.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1664.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1664.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1757.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1778.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們現在開會進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項1審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管反托拉斯基金2審查1本院委員吳立華的17人米據 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1779.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1808.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
土石採取法第3條條文修正草案案2.本院委員黃綸等36人擬拒土石採取法第3條及第14條條文修正草案案3.本院委員邱盈盈等21人委員賴樂龍等19人分別擬拒土石採取法部分條文修正草案等2案4.本院委員許志傑等31人委員柯之恩等19人委員陳廷輝等16人委員丁英守莊等16人分別擬拒土石採取法第36條條文修正草案等4案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1810.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1823.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
5.本院委員邱振均等24人拟據《土石差距法》第36條、第38條及第39條條文修正草案6.本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據《土石差距法》第36條、第38條及第41條條文修正草案宣布完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1830.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1848.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
本日議程的話以尋答165年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管反托拉斯基金2審查土石採取法部分條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1850.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1859.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好那我們因為節省時間所以我們現在請這個公平交易委員會代理主任委員陳志明報告5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1865.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1881.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席各位委員先進各位女士先生大家早今天很榮幸代表公平會來經濟委員會針對本會115年度的施政計畫跟預算編列情形那以下請就114年的預算執行情形還有115年的預算編列情形做一個簡要的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1882.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1899.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
首先在114年度的預算的執行進行部分在稅務的部分就單位預算的部分本會的稅務部分114年度的預算數是1億1927萬4千元那這裡面主要是罰緩的收入那到12月底為止處分的罰緩總共有6106萬元那處分確定列入收入總計有28億 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1906.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1921.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
93266000元那這裡面主要是因為有一些大的案子像電容器民營電廠確定法案確定所以列入這個收入那最初的部分114年度的預算編列大概是3億6000萬左右含最佳預算那到12月底的時候累計致用的3億23197000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1924.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1945.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以佔累積的分配數是91%那至於在附屬單位預算很多都是基金部分基金的來源在114年度的預算數5470萬元那截至12月底為止我們累積的收入數是12億4856萬元那這裡面主要是因為違反公民交易法的罰款收入有30%所提撥的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1949.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1955.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那在基金的用途部分114年度的預算數是6802萬元那截至12月底累計的資用數是5995萬元累計分配數是79%那基金的餘額目前截至12月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1965.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1975.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
基金的來源及用途相抵後那本期剩餘還有11億9461萬5千元加計期出的這個基金的餘額8億6933萬1千元期末基金的餘額是20億6394萬6千元那115年度開始本會的重點的執政計畫包含持續的執行公平交易法跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1988.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2016.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
多層次傳銷管理辦法那歸置我們產業的競爭環境完備我們相關的競爭法制跟產業資訊的系統那也會繼續進進這個提升事業的這個法尊的意願來後持自由競爭的文化另外在推動國際交流合作部門我們也會持續的強化跨境的執法協作那在這樣的執政的一個重點我們編列了115年的預算那在本會的單位預算部分稅務部分我們編列了1億1000 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2019.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2044.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
928萬元左右其中華凡收入大概預估是1億1895萬4千元那財產的收入是26萬元其他的收入是7萬元稅出的部分115年度編列3億5700萬3千元那主要分為三大部分在一般行政的部分我們編列的3億3419萬元在公平交易業務的部分編列的2千231萬3千元那第一月金是50萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2046.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2070.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
至於單位的附屬預算反托拉斯基金基金的來源115年度我們編列的5482萬2千元那其中罰款的收入是4669萬4千元利息收入是812萬8千元那基金的用途部分115年度我們一共是6707萬3千元那其中分兩個主要的計畫來執行第一個是強化反托拉斯執法計畫我們編列的4252萬1千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2072.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2096.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那另外一個計畫是數位經濟的競爭政策研究及倡議的計畫我們編列了2455萬2000元那本期的餘助基金來源跟用途相抵後還短促了1225萬1000元那本會將持續在既有的工作基礎上持續努力的精進公民交易法的實施來完備競爭的法制那也請各位委員先進能夠對本會的預算案所列的計畫跟經費予以支持跟指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2099.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2102.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好謝謝那接下來的話我們請經濟部常務次長賴建信報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2113.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2130.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席各位委員大家早安有關於土石財區法的大家的關切我們積極不表達誠摯的一個感謝那今天奉這個招會就武力華委員17人提案土石財區法第3條修正案及黃仁委員36人 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2131.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2158.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所凝聚的土石採取法第三條跟第十四條的修正案以及邱毅英委員等二十一人所凝聚的還有賴樂榮委員等十九人許智傑等三十一人柯志源等十九人邱振軍等二十四人陳廷飛等十六人及丁學忠等十六人及民眾黨團所凝聚的土石採取法第三十六條三十八條四十一條修正案等十案 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2159.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2185.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
以下逐一做一個說明首先就土石採取法研修的這個政策的部分針對於國內的大規模的違法採取土石的情勢那違法的行為人藉此謀取不法的利益嚴重迫害了我們的景觀甚至為止公共安全經濟部目前已經移具了土石採取法36條的修正條文並於去年的10月30號預告相關的修正的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2186.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2212.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第一個是強化行政法則把原來的這個罰款的上限從500萬提高到1000萬然後並在採取的當下可以沒入違法行為的機械設備跟運輸的車輛第二個部分是增訂法則對於意圖營利未經許可的這個行為處5年以下的徒刑並科罰金若違法行為釀成災害的部分加重刑罰針對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2215.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2240.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
大院武力法委員等各個提案我們做足一個說明有關於原住民基本的權益跟傳統文化的這個部分這兩個提案主要是會促進符合原民法的第19條跟21條的精神並希望提到法律未接來明定經濟部並且要支持有關於提高行政罰款的部分諸位委員所做的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2242.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2262.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
針對於所謂的罰款的這個上限跟下限的部分都有不同的這個主張那經濟部經過嚴處的時候我們認為說在罰款的下限的部分其實本法所目前的這個下限已遇其他相關的這個法規但是上限的這個部分還是需要就立法的目的來讓這個行為人之所 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2266.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2293.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
之所警覺那就裁處的刑委跟連續法的這個上限的部分也在我們經濟部的這個預告案裡面有相關的提出那另外有關於徵定罰者的這個部分那由於刑者的構成要件上面那我們目前規規劃以益土盈利為基本的要件對於民眾因為自行使用或是少量使用的部分那目前我們在原來的法規裡面就有相關的這個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2295.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2316.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個部分可以做一個明確的區分我們建議說這個部分是參照我們經濟部的這個意見至於沒收處分的這個部分因為沒收的這個時間點是未能限期整戶才能實施的執行那我們希望在採取的當下就可以得以沒收依照各縣市政府的執行能力來沒收 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2317.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2329.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那這個部分可以讓我們執法的單位更有執法的一個空間那至於限期整戶跟強制機關代旅行的這個部分各委員都有一些的提案但是若是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2332.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2347.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個無條件的就是由政府來執行的代理性反而是有變相鼓勵行為人犯罪行為不予改正的一個情況所以以上我們針對土石採取法的修正的這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2347.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2362.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們希望聆聽諸位的一個指導了之後再進行相關的一個修正那目前這個院版的這個草案行政院在審查之中我們希望盡速完成這個案子的審議以上報告謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2367.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2394.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報本日議程討論事項何並詢答委員諮詢前原例作以下宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘 B20的延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點零分截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的賴瑞榮委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2398.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2416.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 謝謝洪昭偉 請賴次長 請賴次長次長 我先請教一下 這個土石採取法這個相當重要 社會高度關注那院版什麼時候能夠送進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2418.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2436.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
事實上我剛剛也到院裡面跟相關的單位來去進行整個法規更細緻化的一個檢討那我們希望說是不是在兩個禮拜裡面可以院的部分可以來通過我希望在審查的時候院辦應該要一起進來討論這個能夠更加的充分 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2437.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2460.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那因為布版的已經出來了大家看得到但是不知道院還會不會有一些修改一些那我們也希望沒有如果已經有共識的趕快送進立法院來做審議那希望大家一起兵來審查能夠更完整把這個土石採取法修得更好好不好兩個禮拜內請院裡面盡速把版本送進來也請次長在跟院裡面再說明一下能夠儘快好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2460.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2476.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
再要請教一下其實這次整個修法裡面其實幾個大方向大家都支持包括我們把刑罰部分加入給予更強的嚇阻力這應該也是目前運版跟布版的一個方向是第一個我們希望維持國土的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2477.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2497.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那針對不法的行為要積極的遏止所以我們在經濟部在提這個修法的預告的之前我們地礦中心也分別的去拜訪高檢署跟地檢署就目前現行執行的這個部分希望要達到遏止的目的那過去只有行政法法那現實行為人沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2499.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2518.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
刑罰是最好的效果坦白講這些惡意的這些的倒採殺死的或者是回田的這些的其實最怕的是被關啦那如果你有刑罰的話對他們嚇阻力就更大了是委員所說的確實是在這個法務部啊各個在系署偵辦之中所有檢察官包括高檢署的認為說這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2519.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2547.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想這個應該大家是有共識那另外是他們沒入這些機具有時候大家發現他已經在不管是挖土機或者說運送的一些車輛在做的時候如果我們能夠立即把他給扣下來的話那應該也會立即能夠讓這個事情不再發生而且也產生更強的嚇阻力啦你來一條扣一台兩台扣兩台我不相信有業者會不斷的冒這樣的風險是的但是我們在執行這個過程裡面還要考慮到各縣市政府啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2547.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2575.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在沒入這些的積蓄的時候不管是在當下去進行所謂的看護或是事後的一個保管這個應該是執行面的問題怎麼去執行但是至少你有嚇阻力產生就是你有違法行為我把你的挖土機甚至把你的一些運具全部把你扣下來的話你有多少數量你沒有這些東西你就無法進行違法的行為了這個是強而有力的手段我相信這也是好的方法這應該是大家也都會支持的好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2576.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2597.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
再來我也請教一下剛剛旗幟市長提到營利跟非營利的部分這個有趣的開放如果第三條把那個這麼明確訂定的話那我們擔心有些是自用的不小心的誤觸的這一塊就不會落入到了一百萬以上的這樣的罰還的問題是 謝謝委員指導事實上在這個部分因為民眾對於自己少量的這個使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2598.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2613.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
還有包括自己因為不管是在農地的耕作或是在整地的需求裡面我們在本法的第三條裡面已經有各個條款大概是五個六個部分對這個只要區隔清楚只要區隔清楚的話讓盈利跟非盈利的分得清楚一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2614.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2637.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
一般的老百姓的不會落到這個重罰裡面但是對於我們這些惡意的這些的營利行為的必須要給予重罰那這樣才能產生賀祖的效果所以延續的我就要講那所以我的版本裡面是你看這一個關高雄的案件他不法獲利破三億那如果現在動輒以像剛剛布板的提出來是兩千萬的話這有辦法達到賀祖的效果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2639.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2659.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
搭配我們現在目前的這個刑法還有機具的這個沒入的部分我相信可以達到一定的這個惡主的效果而且委員你剛剛這個照片裡面所示的他絕對不會是說是非營利的一個行為或是民眾少許的整體的這個行為我們針對於這種行為我們希望透過這個這次的修法來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2661.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2685.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我相信幾個修法都會達到一定的成效那我還是要請問因為現有的只是比如說所得利益的範圍酌量加重罰還跟你直接2000萬跟你3億比如說5億啦他獲利有3億空間我們給5億不管最後追得回來追不回來至少在法上面會呈現出一個高度的力量去我覺得這個還是請院裡面跟部裡面慎重來評估那也許我們在委員會討論可以慎重討論是是好謝謝次長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2688.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2690.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝賴榮榮 謝謝次長接下來我們請邱益穎委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2714.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2734.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
謝謝主席 我先請一下公平會陳代理主委請公平會主委主委來我先請您看一下這幾個網站請問你能夠分辨得出來哪一個是原廠的維修網站嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2736.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2757.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
當然如果從標題來看也許不是那麼清楚 但是點進去看情況怎麼樣才能做進一步的報告但你覺得一般的民眾他如果比如說他的冷氣要維修他打了一個大金冷氣維修這樣的一個Google的關鍵字跳出來這麼多的網站 你覺得消費者會每一個都點進去看然後才知道說哪一個是原廠的維修網站嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2758.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2785.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
當然從點閱的行為來看一下因為你會從Google的關鍵字或者跳出來的第一個或許他們就會覺得這個有可能而且每一個網站上面看起來它都是直接就寫某某品牌的冷氣維修來 主委那您看到其實剛剛的那一頁裡面第二個才是真正的原廠維修的網站但是其實你從它的標裡頭你是看不出來的就算你點進去了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2785.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2794.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
它其實還是會有很多這一些假的反饋告訴你說這個維修網站這個維修廠商其實做得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2795.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2823.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
其實你是看不出來的我不曉得您大家還記不記得過去公平會曾經就這樣子的廣告不實或者是虛偽不實去做出裁把不過也很多年沒有再去罰過了所以像現在在很多的網路資訊AI資訊我們或者是說在Google的關鍵字裡頭其實就可以買到相關的這些廣告對於大多數的消費者來說其實造成了極大的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2825.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2846.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因為他根本不知道哪一個是正的原廠維修我也不能講說不是原廠維修的都不好但是這個還是會有可能會出現詐騙或者是說在維修的品質上面良又不齊或者是誤導消費者的狀態這個是不是也能夠請公平會能夠主動的去調查了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2846.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2867.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
跟委員報告一下過去我們處分過的案子基本上都是他的廣告內容是不實的那目前之所以委員談到說目前好像很少這個案子主要就是說基本上我們對現在他已經不敢不實了但是他直接就打出了我們的現在執法原則就是說如果你的網頁上讓消費者可以去判斷有判斷的機會的話那原則上我們就不能說他不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2868.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2892.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好那他怎麼樣判斷的機會來你看一下你可以看得出來這個網頁他到底是不是真正的原廠維修他的字體非常的小小到讓你其實看不清楚比如說在左邊的這一頁他的字體非原廠的他是放在上面這字體非常的小左邊這一頁呢他是放在最底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2893.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2916.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
他其實他的字體是非常的小我們過去處分過的案子對這種字體太小或是隱匿的我們會查啦這個我還是希望你們要去了解一下啦這個其實還是有很多的消費糾紛產生所以今天特別在藉由這個我們處理公平會預算的這個審查的時候來跟您提出這樣的一個好來那個主委您請回我請一下經濟部次長我們請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2925.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2940.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
市長我們今天要討論土石採取法那這個土石採取法現在今天看起來有非常多的版本其實每一個委員對於土石採取這一件事情我應該講土石採取法會 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2942.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2953.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
被這麼關心的提出來是因為在去年的時候發生了美濃大峽谷的事件那這個美濃大峽谷還被惡意的網友把它改成叫做邁銀大峽谷 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2955.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2974.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
高度的指控這跟我有關係喔那我想藉著這樣的一個機會也要讓大眾很清楚的知道這個土石採取我們目前的法則老實講已經無法規範行為人次長您同意我的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2974.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3000.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
是 過去從97個案件裡面的裁法我們認為說 只有行政法法是不夠的因為像委員的照片所示 它其實是一個盈利的行為甚至還有不肖的業者來去回舔所謂的廢棄物砂石業者有盈利行為 這個我們也不排斥但是非法採取砂石做盈利 盜採 然後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3003.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3024.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
偷到垃圾偷到廢棄物這已經是一個產業鏈了所以我們現在的裁罰可能只罰這個司機你根本是完全扣不到真正的幕後的那一個黑手所以我看很多的委員提出來的這些版本包括上線都 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3025.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3051.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
提高非常多啦本期在期按的這個上限大概是2500萬應該算是在所有的期按裡面算是最少的也有提到兩億的啦 一億的啦不管你的上限提高到多少我認為整體的這一個非法倒採砂石的這個產業鏈應該要去強力的去打擊它 增加刑事責任甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3052.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3057.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
包括不只是行為人 不只是卡車的司機 沒入他的砂石車 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3059.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3081.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
甚至所有的行政罰則都應該一併採納您同意我的看法嗎是 完全同意啊剛委員所說的 特別是有盈利的行為不管是他即便說他是最後是回舔這個廢棄物事實上也是盈利因為這些廢棄物就是他得兩盒賺嘛 他挖了砂石起來賣了砂石賺一批嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3082.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3104.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
回填廢棄物 非法的廢棄物回填以後又再賺一批嘛整個產業鏈也造成了現在全台灣有所謂的土方之亂這些過去的建築營建土方目前不知道要倒去哪裡 也沒有辦法處理所以我們除了去處理稻採砂石這件事情以外我覺得經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3106.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3125.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
跟國土署應該就整個產業鏈整個廢棄物的處理太陽模式應該要去做更詳細的研究評估土石採取法現在加重罰環我們應該要儘速通過但我不知道為什麼行政院拖這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3126.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3148.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
安委員所說的確實我們在過去一段時間我們不但是要遏止這個行為我們在這個行為必須要回復整戶是一個重要性的事情這邊有涉及到跨部會我們看到我們過去的時候這應該牽扯到國土署環境部跟你們經濟部在沙石的管理上面那行政院的版本什麼時候可以出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3149.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3176.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們希望在兩個禮拜內啊可以提出來兩個禮拜內是出行政院吧對對如果兩個禮拜內沒有辦法出行政院呢請陳金德提頭來見嗎沒有沒有沒有其實在這個部分我們大家的溝通的部分是針對於整戶的部分但是目前大家逐漸有意見的收攏之中我們希望盡速的通過這個法規恢復我們這個環境景觀跟國土的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3176.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3191.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
您過去擔任很長一段時間的水利署署長所以您對於在河川稻採砂石這些事情其實您都瞭然於心我覺得在很多的規範管理跟制度化更提升賀止犯罪產業鏈的出現的這一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3195.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3222.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個過程我希望你能夠多用一點心那我也希望行政院的版本能夠早日提出來我們今天可能主席會待會會逐條討論但是我覺得行政院版本如果不併進來的話我們真的不知道政府單位的態度在哪裡你不能只有委員的提案你行政單位的提案到現在一直遲遲不送出來這個我們也覺得這個非常的不應該所以市長這個我們還是希望能夠交付給您很重要的任務好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3225.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3230.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 謝謝接下來我們請洪玉祥召委 請發言好 謝謝主席 我們有請這個公平會主委我們請公平會 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3248.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3267.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個我想這個第一個我想之前大家很多委員都問過了所以我大概也不用需要你回答大概就是說因為不管在因為我覺得這個東西還會一直在發生不管是將來什麼事件所以可能在你交給我們的一個報告裡面去告訴我們說什麼時候會偵測到這種所謂的一個不夠啦 囤賭啦 對不對漲價聯合這種議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3273.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3300.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那做了什麼處理 處理時間多久那當然你是怎麼確認這個結案啊好不好這個在書面回覆給我們那今天要跟談的就是說上次我們談到Grab對不對他併購了這個那Grab後面還有Uber所以在這裡頭的話我還是想要提醒公平會因為我看你們的預算可能這一塊沒有特別的highlight出來可能藏在這個某些項目底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3301.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3324.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那我比較擔心的就是我上次談的演算法平台數據這邊的競爭因為現在的話呢我覺得他已經不是像單純之前我們講的在討論的Foodpanda跟這個Uber的一個合併那現在的話透過這樣子併購下來之後其實我從科技的角度我比較擔心的是這種跨國的Super的APP的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3325.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3351.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
跟他這種演算法黑箱的一個不透明的一個鞏斷那這個地方呢會對我們造成的影響就是說因為你Grab有這些的數據再加上Foodpanda然後他背後的股東還是有Uber所以這兩個平台的演算法的一致性或者是調解或是他採取的機制加上這些數據說實在的他可能會影響到我們整個的動態定價 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3353.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3368.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那不管是形成對外送員或者是消費者或者是這個店家的一個平臺的一個一個就是對我們的這種數位的這樣子的一個殖民造成我們的一個數位上的剝削那不曉得這一個主委對這個有什麼樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3369.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3389.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我想委員關切的議題在上次我有稍微談過就是說基本上我們不會採過於非常形式的審查所以它背後的股權結構彼此之間是不是有董事兼聰是不是有跨公司持股這個它的控制力的展現都是我們在審查這個案子我們會繼續去觀察的因為這個地方有點難的地方是在於是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3393.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3411.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這個他在做這件事情的時候其實那個演算法的透明性他往往會用商業機密的方式那也就是不公開所以你可能沒辦法去直接去detect他那可能就變成是間接所以我才說這個你可能要請一些相關的專家甚至辦很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3412.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3430.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所以我們這個都會討論的會議因為我覺得在這個地方我們先未雨綢繆別人沒看到的東西因為新加坡在做這一塊的地方已經有做一點類似的裁罰你們也可以去參考這樣的案例那為什麼我這樣講因為我們的外送專法過了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3431.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3450.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
雖然我們解決了比如說疊單解決了這個透明度的這個問題但是我覺得在演算法這邊的一個軟停權然後它透過市場供需調節的機制來做我覺得這個是有一些疑慮的好不好這個再請公平會在未來的執行再好好思考是 謝謝接下來的話我們請這一個經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3456.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3478.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我想今天另外一個很重要的議題的話基本上我想就是稻採砂石然後再回舔這個問題我相信很多委員都說過了那我這邊的話想要說明的是說雖然我們跟經濟部有溝通過其實我也蠻正向的比如說在加重刑法的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3479.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3501.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
但是我覺得在罰款上面還有是不是可以用按日連續處罰直到他恢復為止因為我覺得這樣子的嚇阻力才夠那為什麼像剛剛這個所謂的兩千萬一億是因為我們在海域這海域的稻採這邊你們就開到一億了所以我是覺得你不能說海域跟陸地上有差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3503.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3510.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個照請經濟部是不是可以思考因為你不能說我倒在海裡的然後跟倒採土地的是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3511.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3534.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
跟委員說明 首先土石採取法目前的這個法則已經是水土保持法或是區域計劃法裡面相對的比較高的第二個部分 事實上我們在採法的時候也要考慮到執法還有包括比例的原則 剛剛委員所說的1億元的部分我們在涉及到營業的部分或是產生包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3535.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3552.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
人民的生命財產的這個安全的這個危害或是因為你的第二條就是這樣這現行法案以船舶其他機械在下列區域中華民國內水不含內陸水域領海這海域嘛人家陸地跟海域不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3554.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3582.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個海域的部分因為他現行的這個沒有我是說一致啦一致啦好不好抓在陸地上的人比較多啦這個是我的看法第二個剛剛很多委員也提到過就是說你今天的沒入陰沒入等等其實我覺得這些不管我們要處罰行為人不管是沒入他身材的機具我覺得這些都是強制性要高一點就像剛剛那位委員講的來一台我就扣一台來十台我扣十台對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3584.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3604.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
然後像剛剛邱委員講的就是有時候我們只懲罰到司機或客車那我覺得背後的話這些的真正的幕後主使當然你們的回覆我有跟你們的主委討論過因為他說這個東西可能就是刑法上連帶對不對會去處罰這個後面的集團這樣子所以我這邊也沒有特別僵持但是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3606.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3633.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個行政院的版本願意把這些的連帶後面的背後集團對不對這整個繩之以法不管是透過這個重罰重刑我覺得我們都應該支持好不好目前院裡面審理的這個方向跟委員所說的大致是一致的好那我們就盡快因為剛剛很多人來跟我拜託就說你們行政院的版本快一點就這樣子好不好因為我今天還是要主要寫謝謝你啦因為這是很重大的議題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3637.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3637.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
好 謝謝來 趕快先過來因為下個委員在等 謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3663.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3670.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政務協會首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體機的女士先生有請公平教育委員會陳主任委員好 我們請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3676.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3701.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主委好,這個外送平台引起矚目那它的店、客、員要兼顧各方公平那跨市場的居室的結合審查要跨部會呢?我們來看一下來,Grab那Foodpanda是福是禍呢?報紙報導說這個呢,當這個消息曝光啊消費者擔心外送費會漲價但是呢,外送員擔心會被剝削這個引起兩方的擔憂,再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3702.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3724.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那麼這個非常的複雜,跨國公司交叉投資怎麼樣,公平會怎麼樣檢視這個股權結構呢?我們看一下,就上次被駁回Fupenda併購之後呢這個Grab它是有入股Uber,Uber又去入股Delivery Hero但是Delivery Hero又是Fupenda的母公司,Grab現在要併購這個Fupenda |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3726.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3754.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好啦買家跟賣家和對手你中有我我中有你請問公平會怎麼樣去判斷這些複雜的股權結構還是是資本併購還是具有影響力那個跟委員報告一下我們對於這個背後的股權將它持股這些事情我們在審查的時候都會審不過跟委員報告就是說法律並不禁止事業可以做跨國跨股所以當我們要以這個理由來質疑它這個結合的時候我們需要有更具體的事證這個事證包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3754.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3768.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
他們在過去是不是曾經有利用這種交叉持股的方式來做一些限制計劃很好很高興公平我注意到因為這是在我看到媒體呢有一個王博士這樣寫好往下看那麼除了這個資本併購是一個考量之外聯合行為啊財團的資本呢複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3770.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3793.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
如果說今天台塑跟中油的董事長拿起電話說明天油價我們來定個什麼價格這是聯合行為很好抓嘛但是如果有A公司他吃又假公司跟乙公司的股權分別都兩邊都派有董事這兩個董事分別在各自的這個董事會提出的意見做了同樣的決定糟糕了這是不是聯合行為會不會有利益綁定你們怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3794.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3819.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
同樣如果有具體的事證 這也有可能構成聯合行為雖然他是少數股權 跨公司的少數股權 是不是讓我們聯合行為的判斷更為複雜更難當然 當然 這一直都是一個問題 是 好 那往下看喔那麼現有的法律呢 要如何平衡四方的交易公平 舉例現在法一個什麼 一個外送專法 對不對外送專法 外送員很重視對於負擔到貨物利益來講 外送員他付出了勞動力 得到了酬勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3823.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3847.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
但是他仍然擔心他的權益那就這個平台業者來講呢因為他掌握了資金流跟資訊流可是他還抱怨怎麼樣成本增加同樣的消費者他說我要取得你的外送服務我要付費用那店家也是這樣子啊你讓我曝光有被消費者訂購的這個機會但是你要給我抽成他們也擔心當你外送平台抱怨成本上升的時候消費者跟商家都要負擔這個轉嫁的成本主委怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3851.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3879.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個就是平台經濟的特色同樣既是共生但是彼此之間存在潛在利益衝突所以公平會的職權有限我們大概只能夠針對他對市場競爭這一塊很好你說職權有限所以我們來看到其他國家的做法剛剛趙也提到了新加坡的模式新加坡有一個公共交通理事會PTC他決定公共運輸的票價他是獨立機關有各界人代表專家票價的調整公司要考慮到CPI工資變動能源價格生產力的提取率 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3880.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3907.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
還有容量的提升指標等等等廣大社會各界之後呢他所做的費率決定他才能夠獲取勞工的信任也能平衡消費者擔心成本轉向的問題那你認不認為類似的案例政府要不要介入制定費率當然這涉及到跨部會事實上我以目前台灣我目前的法治架構其他部會也是有在介入這個案子只是說也許不是像新加坡這麼全面性的是像勞動部他有定義一個費用嘛那這樣會造成市場的不效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3910.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3933.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
當然每個機關他有他各自的職場目標要實現那從公平會角度來看某些個行為我們會提醒部會可能要注意到市場的反應好 那往下看所以現行公平會的審查機制是完善你看你們考慮市佔率 考慮消費者利益對不對 這寫得很清楚啊但是除了市佔率為重點 除了消費者之外勞工跟商家的溢價能力如何保障以這個富培拿這個例子來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3934.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3946.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
Grab這個事情來講你說這個平台業者未來的這個交叉投資還有跨市場的這樣的情況那你怎麼樣只有現有的條文現有的機制夠嗎只講到消費者利益夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3948.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3968.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我想譬如說以勞工為例好了勞工的議題當然勞動部他有他關切的焦點以我們的角度來看我們可能會去界定一個勞動力需求的市場然後在這個市場裡面去觀察平台跟勞動力的供給彼此之間的供需的情況一樣回歸到市場精神的機制來審查這個議題一樣可以審但是我們的切入點跟勞動部不會一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3968.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3992.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這樣講有點比較原則比較像在課堂上討論來我們看很具體的企業呢已從市場壟斷進化到生態系的建構我們看到這個超級平台不管是Apple還是Google還是呢這個Amazon你看在美國FTC通通把它起訴壟斷在歐盟呢有數位市場法禁止它壟斷數據剛召委在此前也講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3993.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4019.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
數位市場法要求開放真的Amazon禁止使用第三方賣家的非公開數據像這些做法公平會都有去蒐集嗎這是在4月時下一個余教授提出來的新考題啊那個跟委員報告一下我們最近發布的這個AI生存式AI的政策聲明裡面我們特別點出未來的競爭太陽可能會逐步走到生態系的競爭這是委員這邊所談的所以包括數位支付商戶的關注但是我要跟委員報告就是說當生態系競爭成型以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4020.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4041.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那個競爭的對手就會有不一樣對沒有錯就很複雜就越來越複雜往下看所以呢公平會就不應該侷限單一市場的壟斷與否而是因應全球市場的趨勢像你說這樣的一個生態系的情況那麼用龐大生態系跨市場的企業檢視它水平垂直跨市場的影響力再來判斷它是不是會有壟斷會有聯合行為是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4041.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4058.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
對這是一個困難的問題但是我們是朝這個目標好那就要求你做因為我們在預算審查所以說今天我們看到以這個來講以這個外送平台來講在資本的部分你們要審查它有沒有要跳脫市佔率的考量要判斷它有沒有實質利率的連結有沒有跨市場優勢這裡面要審查在資本 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4059.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4080.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
資本端你們要這樣審查就是平台嘛那勞工端呢你們是不是要判斷要不要訂定費率的介入要去評估那目前執法的制定勞動部做了要求確尊專法也有勞動部介入了以商教的部分未來的法人審查原創法可能速發部要接起來但是像房大售啦自我優待啦或強迫折扣是不是公平會也要來對這幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4082.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4104.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我說的橘色的這個議題你們有沒有評估搭受自我偏好強迫折扣這些東西公平法裡面是可以來審查的是可以來審查的所以除了這樣的話其他我紫色的部分是不是要跨部會合作或立法協助我們其實在案子審查當中我們會徵詢其他部會的意見所以實質的跨部會合作是有在做有在做好那最後呢結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4105.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4131.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
因為以你們剛剛報告您的報告當中有提到你們的有一個反托拉斯基金當中你們的用途是做數位經濟競爭政策研究及倡議計畫對不對是那我希望你們這個計畫在今年的年度要研究公平委針對第一複雜股權交叉持股委的壟斷跟聯合行為的審查方式第二如果市場形成寡占政府要不要介入制定費率什麼制定這兩個部分特別去研究可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4132.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4157.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們可以回去研究一下另外我希望公平會在審查GREP的結合案審查完畢之後我們沒有要干預你們審查完畢之後希望你們提一個書面說明說明你們在審查的結果有沒有考量到加沙吃苦、跨市場生態系的優勢勞工的權益如何保障以及商家的保障可以嗎這個我們可以我們要大家看個案的證據當然審查完畢之後我說你們審查完畢之後就這幾個部分出個書面說明可以可以我可以跟委員說好謝謝謝謝公平會 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4161.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4178.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好 我們謝謝鍾嘉斌委員 接下來我們有請楊瓊英委員質詢感謝主席楊瓊英發言 邀請公平會 邀請公平會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4182.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4210.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
委員長主要好這個Uber在4月17號宣布要以2.7億歐元來收購德國外送平台的Delivery Hero的4.5%的一個股權那使得它的總持股會達到7%左右但是我們也知道Hero正式撲片打台灣母公司那Uber本身又有Grab |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4211.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4228.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
他大概有13.1%的這個股權那而且他還有保有董事的一個席次那換句話說Uber呢同時是國內北收購普遍黨台灣暗中的買方股東那同時他也是賣方的母公司的一個股東 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4229.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4235.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
也就是說台灣市場主要的競爭者那前年公平會我們才以合併後市佔率過高恐怕會影響主要的競爭者這個價格上漲的這個理由所以否決了那個Uber直接收購Fupenda在台灣我們做這樣的一個決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4254.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4279.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
但是我們看到現在Uber改以入股母公司的方式重新來建立利益的關係這等於是形成了橫跨買賣雙方的三角持股的結構所以請教主委在這樣的一個情況之下你是否會認定Grip是獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4279.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4295.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
的買方那未來你在審查回本收購撫片達的這個案子的時候你是否會把Uber的交叉持股董事席次以及實質利益連結一併來納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4297.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4315.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
才不會去年你否決那今年就放棄請說明跟委員報告一下當然去年的案子跟今年的案子不太一樣至少就是市場結合後結果不一樣當然委員提到這個問題是一個重要的問題那我也一再的表示就是說這個問題我們在審查過程一定會審查那這邊要附帶跟委員報告就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4315.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4331.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
法律上既然沒有禁止公司可以跨公司來持股所以假設我們要以這個跨公司持股對競爭的疑慮來審查這個案子的話我們必須要有更多的行為面的事證所謂行為面的事證就是說我們要先去預測甚至於去判斷讓他結合以後他會不會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4333.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4347.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
契約或是其他方式對 你講到這個重點了所以大家都非常的關心因為法律上沒有如此那每一個型態 商業行為它的方式一直變在變那我政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4348.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4367.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
永遠都是那一套的一個法律所以大家關心在您剛剛所說的也是一個重點實質的影響力到底是什麼你務必要納入啊對 這個我們會具體如果我們有疑慮我們會具體要提供一些事證來配合我們來調查看是不是能夠產生實質的影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4368.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4392.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
因為這個規約本已經在3月27號你已經向你遞交了收購忽偏大的台灣業務的一個申請所以大家看到這個議題一定要好好的以公平消費者的一個原則這個非常的重要接下來本席要請教在海運的部分還有凱旋以及天性 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4393.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4416.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那麼現在它從2019年它透過了共同設立管理公司的一個協調航班以及票款的一個拆分那實質已經形成了聯合排班限制航班的供給那三家業者在布袋跟馬公的航線它的市佔率幾乎將近達到六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4417.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4421.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
它雖然沒有共同的來定價它透過了控制班次跟債容量那等於是讓市場去失去了正常的這個競爭機制那所以這換句話說 也反映了產業它不一定是靠聯合漲價來影響市場 對不對對 你講的沒錯啊 我們聯合企業不是只限於聯合漲價 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4442.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4460.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那像這樣子他透過了聯合限量 聯合排辦 聯合分配市場讓消費者他沒有選擇 奶業者也沒有改立即改善服務的這個量人的一個壓力所以要請教主委像這樣的一個情況你最後你只有罰了多少 各罰十萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4468.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4484.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
你們的財儲是最後個罰十萬塊所以這樣子是不是低估了整個聯合限量對於市場的競爭跟消費者權益的一個傷害那未來你是否會重新去檢討聯合行為的一個財罰標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4489.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4506.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
因為聯合行為的裁罰的級距是蠻寬的啦所以它有最低到最高一定的級距但是我們在個案裡面的裁罰我們會綜合各種因素來判斷那這個案子主要原因是因為我們分析後的結果雖然他們是聯合行為但是他們對市場影響的程度並不是太高我們深怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4507.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4519.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
轉了一個彎轉了一個方式讓業者把划環的部分當成是微不足道的他的一個經營成本但是影響到消費者所以現在本席跟你討論的另外一個議題也就是方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4526.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4550.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為業者已經將方式有所做調整那你們必須要去討論現在的經營方式那你們的督導方式要怎麼樣去應對這是本席我個人跟你請教的這個議題的一個重點你去盤點你可以怎麼樣去調整去調整你的方式不讓消費者有所損害無從選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4554.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4573.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我想聯合行為對業者的宣導我們是積極在做這可能是我們最重要的一點好你去盤點然後方案怎麼樣調整告訴本席順便資料給本席給個人給我那最後一個議題公平會你在115年呢不公平競爭行為調查當中你編列了今年度的260 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4575.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4579.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
226萬9千元那增幅是28.26%比起109年到114年那7月底你的這個第21條跟25條的處分只有15件那你才華的這個總額也 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4592.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4621.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
只有243萬那但是我們討論一個議題也就是營利營運費用跟採購的限制這兩項這對於整個龐大的市場現在是整個市場的一個趨勢那如果是這樣子你的答案告訴我們只有15件只有200出頭外那等於沒有實質的震懾力那所以呢會嚴重的影響到整個加盟交易的一個次序跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4621.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4625.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
保持失業的一個公平競爭所以本席要請教主委隱匿費用跟強制採購在整個這個家門的企業當中會產生資訊不對等的這兩項項目你是否會落實怎麼樣去保障家門主的一個權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4641.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4658.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我想這個營利費用跟採購限制這些東西都是在我們的處理原則裡面有明確要求業者在加盟契約書裡面還明確的揭露出來所以這整個處分安全通常都是因為他該揭露而沒有揭露對 那怎麼辦呢那我們藉由過去這幾年不斷的積極的宣導其實沒有不斷的知道那你的宣導就是15件啊跟200出頭萬的滑環而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4662.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4686.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
從某個角度來看 所以你現在自己都囊囊上口可以講說問題出在這裡 該揭露沒揭露啊那該揭露沒揭露 你的緩緩又是如此 案件就只有15件了那要怎麼辦 你要什麼樣的調整方案去監管我們會積極的去監管這樣的一個行為 那當然宣導也是很重要的事情所以趕快去加強好不好 對 那緩緩的部分要綜合考慮好 趕快去加強 最後我請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4692.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4716.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
市長我們第二階段呢 召委排定了這個土石這個採取法的這個部分那大家非常關心 包括原住民他們應當要有的權益就陳儒剛剛市長你所說的回歸環境景觀就是大家都非常重視在怎麼樣均衡那這個法案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4716.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4730.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
的決定是很重要的怎麼樣去回歸環境的景觀所以不只是在這個第三條原住民的這個部分還有特別就是大家比較爭議的在第36條 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4733.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4752.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
36條 有原先的2000萬也有說8000萬 也有1億的等等所以待會會實質來討論但是我們覺得很奇怪 既然行政部門認為很重要對於我們整個環境也很重要在這樣的一個情況之下 行政院版為什麼還沒有出來 什麼時候會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4754.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4774.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
什麼時候會出來剛剛主委委員已經關心過我們希望院裡面兩個禮拜裡面可以送出院版這個部分來第二個部分委員所提到的為什麼討論這麼久不但是抓到犯罪人而已不但是裁罰而已我們重要的是委員講的環境警官要整戶回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4775.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4793.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為整戶的部分 威爾尼亞只要涉及到很多的單位包括內政部 包括甚至是農業部的這個部分我們必須要把它細緻的把它溝通做一個比較好的一個整戶因為我們希望這些犯罪行為獲得遏止之外環境還可以去恢復回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4795.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4808.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個是我們在努力的這個方向所以剛剛次長你回答就是兩個禮拜內行政院版會出來我們希望說院裡面可以去審核因為大家這麼關心你行政院更要有責任了對不對而且橫向的一個聯繫討論更要積極啊兩個禮拜內會提出來我們希望依照這樣子來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4823.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4827.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
謝謝委員謝謝次長請陳廷飛委員質詢請經濟部任市長委員好市長我想要跟你討論一個比較嚴肅的問題因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4852.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4869.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
最近大家有在說雲加南的水情告急然後開始說嘉義雙潭的蓄水跌破三成所以雲南啟動區域調度應急人工藥蒸魚待命但我一發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4872.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4892.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
如果這樣的比較之下我們台南更恐怖我們台南的水情白河水庫只剩17.5%曾文水庫只剩16.7%只有烏山頭水庫目前因為可能當時候的一些好大雨下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4893.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4918.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
地方有比較準確一點所以烏山頭水庫它的蓄水量還有53.4%然後南化水庫是38.8%好那我們現在看到這樣的一個水情狀況表示雲嘉南確實是已經有在告急了一點那我們怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4919.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4940.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
謝謝委員關心這個嚴肅的議題每年到這個時候特別都是一個氣候變遷 旱到都是平反的時候有時候是一手防汛一手抗旱比如說從今天開始未來的三天我們依照氣象署的這個預報可能在我們全台西部地區會帶來一些封面的一些的降雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4940.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4959.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那當然我們就要做好防汛之外針對於抗旱的工作我們特別要重視特別是現在委員我們南部像台南地區現在的很多的稻米要抽稅了開始要放水了所以委員也注意到說我們曾文水庫跟烏山頭水庫的蓄水率稍微下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4959.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4983.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
但是這個裡面我們除了掌握封面來臨了之後做好跟農業部門的節水的一個調控之外水利署在下禮拜一也會召開了水情會議來去讓我們的這個水情的供應更加的穩定除此之外我再跟委員補充一點過去城門委員會的一個支持我們在前瞻的計畫裡面珍珠串的部分以真穩 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4984.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5005.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
烏山頭跟南化為例過去南化水庫啊在這個時候常常蓄水量不到2000萬立方公尺那是不是因為透過珍珠串的真穩南化聯通管的工程讓這個南化的這個水庫可以達到3000萬以上的這個蓄水率那當然我們有調度的工作之外管理也非常的重要所以我們在這幾年加強了清淤 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5007.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5033.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這也是我們委員過去的支持在水利署才有這部分的一個成就當然我們要密切的注意在未來幾天的降雨因為前幾天在4月初的時候的一個降雨在苗栗的這個地方雖然說是春雨可是它的下雨量時雨量都超過了100毫米左右這個部分是我們要關注的水利署也會依照預測的情形來成立相關的所有的必要時成立應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5035.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5057.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
現在是非常關鍵的時刻就像次長所說的我們一方面要防汛一方面又要抗旱這是現階段非常矛盾的一個狀態所以我們經濟部我們水利署就扮演非常重要的角色因為水情的部分也是你們然後呢防汛也是你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5058.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5081.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以這兩個部分到底要怎麼做尤其你剛所說的未來我們所面對的可能是農業灌溉還有我們在產業運作的部分還有民生用水就是說我們當在調度的時候要怎麼讓這三個重要的環節不會互相影響不會互相排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5083.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5107.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這才是最重要的尤其你今天有互相排擠對於民眾他都會覺得自己被剝奪感所以我也希望說市長在這個部分因為我們的珍珠串計畫確實是我們很大的一個期待那我們現在聯通館我們三區聯通館大概都已經完成了現在聯通館完了之後那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5109.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5137.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
現在要做試驗囉現在要珍珠串到底真的串的起來串不起來到底是不是能夠達到我們當時候預期的狀況跟效果現在人民就在檢驗了所以我覺得在這個時候未來三天的封面他是不是能夠下載真正需要的地方未知數所以我們是否如何利用封面能夠創造一些更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5138.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5140.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
一些储备 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5141.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5170.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這才是最重要的所以我們不算是下雨來的時候才開始應變所以委員講的各標的這個用水我們當掌握明確的降雨訊息的時候就要做水門的一個調解那過去我們台南漲水工發揮很大的效果那我們也希望利用科技的部分不管是智慧灌溉在關田地區都有很大的一個試驗出來而且以具體的成效特別是我們要關注的是南部地區因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5171.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5193.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
一起到座 抽稅完了之後 很快的喔它六月 五月下旬 六月就二季就開始就要開始工作 所以我們會珍惜每一滴的水資源我們希望留住水 然後我們希望做好防災的準備不要造成災害我們希望說 我們中央跟地方政府一定要做好配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5194.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5208.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
是而且我們如何用珍珠串然後又科技造水剛剛我們那個次長有講到的科技的部分我們如何科技灌溉科技造水這個如何聯合運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5209.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5231.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
都是我們現在如何利用高科技的狀態去維持我們目前所需要的用水量所以我覺得這個時間點尤其我們現在預知了未來三天封面我們當然祈求老天爺要下在對的地方可是萬一沒有下在對的地方我們必須要開始防汛 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5233.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5248.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那好我們如何利用這一波的封面萬一不是下在該下的地方然後我們怎麼利用這個封面要把水引用在真的對的地方好這個其實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5249.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5273.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你們的智慧了 很難很難 但是我覺得當我們用了珍珠串用了科技灌溉 科技照水我們現在都在用AI我們希望用更多的資訊能夠把這些所謂的缺水的狀態把它壓到最低對 這個協調的工作 中央地方的配合的工作很難嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5273.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5288.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
但是過去委員也知道 包括三月期的治理 我們跟地方 包括委員幫忙很多那很快的治理就達成一定的成效 至於在水資源的管理的部分 因為這個部分更需要 因為這水 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5289.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5308.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這是一個稀缺的資源 人沒有水是沒有辦法生活的那農作也沒有辦法耕作 民生的部分包括產業的部分影響都很大所以我們不管是在海水淡化或是在農業灌溉節水的這個部分特別是在農業的節水的部分 我們近幾年都有跟農業部門有很大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5308.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5336.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
合作跟溝通的一個平台我剛剛有說明的水利署下禮拜一會召開水情會議也會針對於剛剛委員所詢問的部分來特別交換意見進行協調的工作我麻煩次長你把你們跨部會的結論到時候送一份到我辦公室來然後到底中央跟地方要怎麼連結然後跨部會又連結我覺得在這個時候才是要發揮它最大效用的一個狀態謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5339.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5363.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 謝謝陳廷輝委員 謝謝好 接下來我們有請鄭振淺委員質詢謝謝主席 我想請一下公民教育委員會陳志明代理主委請公平會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5371.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5381.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我們先看一下最近很多的虛擬網紅出現因為整個AI的蓬勃發展很多虛擬網紅出現這幾位虛擬網紅我不知道你認不認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5385.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5400.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
跟委員講我全部不認識是沒有問題因為這在國外當中其實很火熱然後因為他們的產生的時候就是不只是出現一些content的提供而已他們也開始介入一些直播帶貨的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5401.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5428.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
因為介入直播帶貨的時候我們其實就會碰到跟我們公平會就會有點相關的問題那對於這樣的一個情況的時候我們看到幾個研究報告因為整個AI虛擬網紅他們出現之後那麼有研究報告指出來有25%的消費者是願意買單的而且也實際在買單當中那這樣的情況的時候就會產生一些我們特別關注的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5429.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5447.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
就對於這樣子的一個虛擬網紅他們算不算是我們在公平交易當中特別提到的一個見證者這樣的一個角色也請主委回答一下因為虛擬用AI的工具基本上AI也是一個工具啦是在或者是背後操縱這個工具是 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5447.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5465.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以假設有符合我們見證廣告甚至於不實廣告的相關規定這個都是不實廣告可以介入的那對於這不實廣告的介入當中因為我們之前對於所謂的見證者因為是自然人的狀態的時候我們很容易去找到他們的一個責任要怎麼樣去承擔那對於這樣的一個虛擬網紅的一個情況的時候那我們到時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5470.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5484.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
追究如果說這虛擬網紅他們到時候見證的過程當中有產生一些彩虹線的一個行為的時候我們要怎麼去追究他是針對創造IP的人還是持有IP的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5485.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5503.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
可不可以請主委做一個簡單的回應這個就是在我們公民法裡面所謂廣告主的認定我們要把責任加諸在誰的身上那這個公民會基本上有一個原則就是說第一個我們會看到他對於廣告的內容是不是有參與第二個他有沒有透過這個廣告會有利益如果符合這個條件基本上就是我們可以追責的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5504.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5507.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
因為他是AI嘛 對不對所以說你要追責的狀態的時候廣告組沒有問題所以你說這個虛擬的網紅他們本身也要負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5518.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5547.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
連帶的一個賠償責任虛擬網紅本身就是虛擬嘛但是是那個操縱那個後面的操縱的人對不對所以基本上是我們是針對於擁有這個IP的人去做創造這個AI虛擬人物創造跟擁有的人不一定是一樣的所以我想要去理解的狀態是擁有這個虛擬網紅的人的時候他要去負擔這個連帶責任那如果說他是授權出去的時候是被授權的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5548.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5570.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
他就用這樣的一個廣告行為的時候他要去負擔這樣的一個責任他們標準還是一樣就是即使他是授權的方式只要他對於廣告內容他知悉有參與而且他透過這個行為獲有利益都不排除是一個廣告主義好 理解那我想說因為這個部分因為現在已經不斷地在開始產生了那我們也希望公平會能夠特別去關注那麼另外一個部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5571.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5595.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們對於所謂演算法定價這個部分相關的一個問題產生那我看到說之前的時候我們公平會要曾經針對深層市人工智慧相關競爭法議題徵詢公眾意見的這個部分當中的時候對於所謂的演算法定價所產生出來的一些問題的時候感覺目前公平會是採取一個低度介入的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5596.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5623.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
就事情發生了之後我們再去做一個事後監管的一個狀態是不是這樣的情況原則上因為如果你涉及到演算法定價我們不太以目前來講我們不太適合事先就要求業者演算法介入所以我們大概都是事後如果出現議題我們再介入那剛剛委員談到這個AI的政策聲明我們之所以沒有說積極的表示要介入是因為從我們公共徵詢的意見回收業者普遍來講他們認為目前台灣還沒有出現這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5624.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5651.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
OK 因為還沒有出現那我在想說以目前來講因為公平會議之前有提到說你們要提出修法要曾經去新設一個這個法規修法那我想說是不是表示目前基本上是處在一個無法可管的一個情況有它的局限因為就是說演算法定價往往會涉及到不是同業水平的關係它有可能是一個平台一個平台跟它不是屬於同一個市場的競爭以目前的法律來講我們就很難用聯合行為來管它 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5652.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5678.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
不過因為 其實坦白說自動定價這樣子的一個演算法定價其實已經開始非常的成熟其實很多訂房系統也都是用這樣子的方式在走所以說如果說我們要等到新的修法之後再去開始去針對這個問題那本席倒是特別提到針對公民交易法第20條當中的時候它第三四款都有特別提到一個或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5678.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5698.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
不正當方法這個部分也許可以把不正當方法這個部分把它做個擴大的一個解釋針對這樣子的一個演算法定價的時候也許可以在我們還沒有修法完成的時候不要出現空窗期我們可以先把它包裹進來演員講得完全正確就是第20條特別是第4款的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5699.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5721.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
第三管第四管我們都是在這個因為聯合行為有它的侷限的情況底下我們事實上也有案子根據二四條第四管來處理就是那個始作俑者好那我們希望因為坦白說因為這兩年AI開始非常蓬勃的一個發展然後接下來速度肯定只會更快不會更慢所以我們也希望公平會能夠跟上這樣的一個腳步好不好是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5722.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5738.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那我在這邊我想特別關注一下其實因為現在所謂的一個跟我們公平會有關的一些聯合行為不只是價格剛剛楊全文有特別提到那個例子他從供需的角度開始去做達到一個聯合行為這樣的一個狀態的一個樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5741.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5762.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那我想說這邊想請教一個部分因為我們看到從109年到113年針對聯合行為的行政處分統計我們看到了一個情況就是說主動調查的部分坦白說大概都只有兩件因為110那七件事實上是因為它有類似的一個案件基本上是這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5763.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5778.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那大部分都是檢舉案件的部分那檢舉案件的比例占比到達113年已經將近87.5%將近九成我想請教一下114年的占比大概是多少檢舉的占比大概是占多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5779.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5799.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
主委這邊有沒有數字我現在手邊沒有我可以查一下再跟您報告因為我們看到這個狀態的時候檢舉案件的占比顯然是非常的重這可能代表一個狀態就是我們公平會能夠主動去調查偵辦的能量也許有限因為我看幾乎每年都是只有兩件 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5800.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5818.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那其他的部分的時候呢都是用那個檢舉的一個案件那我們也看到了一個事情就是在去年年底的時候我們看到公民會這邊有針對檢舉違法聯合行為獎金發放辦法這個地方去做了一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5818.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5846.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
做了一個調整就是針對依據網路電視廣播報章或其他一般民眾可以取得的公開資料提出檢舉的部分基本上現在就不發放獎金而且要追回對不對我看新做的一個辦法一個修法出來結果是這樣子我想請教一下之前我們所收到的檢舉當中是依照公開訊息民眾來檢舉佔比大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5846.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5865.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
占比我沒有具體的數字但是占比很高很高對但是因為就是因為這樣的情況我們發現民眾的檢舉往往就是網路上看到一個然後就一頁下來就直接丟給公平會OK那我要講的狀態是因為我們剛剛看到上一頁那狀態將近目前大概有九成的狀態都是民眾檢舉的情況可是公平會本身的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5866.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5881.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主動偵查的能量其實是有限的那如果說我們現在修改這個獎金辦法的時候讓比方說用這樣子的方式檢舉的基本上都沒有辦法得到獎金基本上我們只支持深喉嚨的一個狀態內部檢舉的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5885.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5909.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
但是就是說我們還是會積極的鼓勵民眾能夠檢舉希望民眾提供給我們市政是我們一般人所看不到的理解我們擔心的狀態是說如果說因為我們現在看到上月數字有將近九成都是靠民眾檢舉那我們現在調整他的獎金發放辦法的時候可能會導致民眾檢舉的意願大幅的下降那我們要用什麼方法去 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5909.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5925.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
作為一個平衡我想這是公平會這邊必須要去面對的一個問題我了解委員關切的點你怕我們到時候檢舉的案子會比較沒有誘因來檢舉那這點我們會考慮我們在網路上監測或是這個所謂民生物品的一個聯合行為監測事實上我們都持續有在做主動的透過網路來監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5927.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5933.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好 那我最後針對那個我們有一個坦托拉斯基金從110年到115年對於網路不實廣告的一個統計數字當中的時候那我們大概看到了一個情況就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5943.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5966.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
110行的預算出大概290萬其實坦白說金額不大啦因為公平匯本身的預算金額就不大那我們看到了到了113年增加到450萬金額不大可是比例非常的高可是我們看到的狀態我們主動調查的案件基本上是都一樣沒有什麼很大的改變所以我在想說我們針對不實廣告這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5969.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5989.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
預算的大幅的提高 因為今年提到了500萬的狀態金額不大 可是比例很高那我們也希望它能夠真正產生好的一個結果跟委員說明一下 金額之所以提高的原因是因為我們發現不時廣告太陽快速的變化然後再加上一些AI技術的生成 就剛剛委員談到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5990.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6006.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以事實上在我們今年的計畫裡面我們有把AI不實廣告部分我們把它列入請我們會委託外面的政策機構來幫我們協助判斷AI是不是有AI那這個部分都會導致我們的這個預算數必須要增加才有辦法針對案件數的增加還有那個困難度的增加這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6006.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6021.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以北京今天提到這幾個點就是說希望我們公平會這邊預算不高可是我們希望它能夠確實發揮主動調查的能量能夠保障消費者好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝好 我們謝謝鄭振全委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6047.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6063.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好 有請那個主委 公平會主委好 今天這個公平交易委員會的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6064.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6080.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們看你的報告裡面提到這個稅率的部分在114年度預算數1億1927萬多元主要是罰還收入截至12月底子處分罰還6106萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6084.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6089.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
處分確定列入收入計28億9326萬6千元請教一下這個26億9千多萬9千多萬是什麼時候這個收到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6104.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6116.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我想這個金額之所以那麼大幅增加主要是因為剛剛在委員談到的這個電容器跟民營電廠那個法環確定所以一下子就進來很多的法環已經收到了嗎今天在6月跟9月 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6117.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6146.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
去年的6月9月還有10月他陸陸續續進來所以已經在去年的就是已經是增加了你們的稅率了好所以如果我們這樣的來當然我們是希望這個依法了依法處理尤其是我們這個詐騙案特別多公平教育的各方面的詐騙案這過去也諮詢了很多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6148.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6173.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以你的115年度仍然維持1億多的這個稅入可以再增加吧其實路同委員知道因為這個稅入主要是來自於罰還那罰還是有高度的不確定性因為是促送行政救濟等等各方面好 這個我已經談了很多次了這個是完備法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6174.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6200.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個部分你們特別提到檢討修正公平教育法確實是要修了這個如果我們看上次我質詢的已經質詢了很多次這個公平教育法主要的條文從106年6月14日到現在已經9年9年了都沒有修了這個你們曾經 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6203.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6230.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
公平教育委員會曾經在2023年6月6號議告要修正公平教育法的部分條文結果這麼久了我們現在已經有一個修法小組已經開過一次會我們下禮拜會再開會已經有提出這個準備要修法的條文了已經開始著手在進行議定什麼時候會報行政院這個我目前還沒有確定的期程但是我們會盡快因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6232.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6248.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你們可以參考過去我們在經濟委員會其他立委包括我所提出來的這個現在這個因為詐騙案很多是網路網路詐騙而且是交易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6249.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6278.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
是以教育的名義來去結果都是被詐騙了所以這個不能怎麼樣去因應不要每一次這個都是推給這個司法機關司法機關是最後了但前面前面要有一個非常好的完備的法規好這個部分所以要請這個好接下來請那個經濟部水利署我們經濟部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6285.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6310.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好 市長今天這個有土石採取法的一個修正條文當然主要是因應之前在高雄的這些土石採取或是其他地方大量造成的一些影響那本席跟我們其他立法委員 住民的立委也非常關注這個第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6312.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6328.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
根据原住民族基本法相关的这些规定能够把这个明确化在整个土石采集法里面像第三条针对不只是原住民自然人 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6329.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6346.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
還包含部落很多傳統的技藝各方面都是部落來為主體的需要希望能夠納入那有關相關的這些石板屋不只是個人家庭包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6347.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6375.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
機關、學校也都會有甚至教會也都會有所以這個部分也都能夠把它納入另外就是14條也做了這樣的修正當然我們下午審查的時候也請經濟部支持還有其他的相關的部會我們下午再好好的討論好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6376.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6400.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
好 謝謝委員所提到的這個第三條第一項第七款的部分事實上在原住民基本法的第19條裡面就有規定了對 我們把它明確化因為根據原住民族基本法第34條的規定是說三年內要修相關的法例所以我們要正式把它納入在這個法例裡面好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6403.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6424.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝那接下來我們請謝玉鳳委員質詢好 謝謝主席我想要請我們經濟部的賴次長請經濟部賴次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6431.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6459.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
市長早安我想請教一下就是因為日本的那個GXETS就是他們的碳排他們的碳排減量的這個制度即將要開始來執行了那我想要請問因為我們台灣有非常多的企業在台灣如果有繳納碳費或者是取得減碳的相關的就是志願減量的額度 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6460.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6475.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那不曉得你們有沒有開始與日本進行協商就是他可以把我們國內的碳費以及志願減量的這個額度獲得日方的認可來減免呢第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6477.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6506.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
有關於協助企業減碳的這個部分我們分為兩個部分來執行第一個在製造部門我們因為國家有禁令的這個路徑這個我們有旗艦計畫在實施那另外的產創條例裡面我們針對於比如說是像低碳或是減冷的這個部分也有一些相關的減免措施至於剛剛委員所詢問到的這個工作因為這個碳費的收取是環境部所主管的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6507.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6524.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那我們當下我們是關注在我們廠商的所謂的轉型的部分這轉型不管是技術的轉型或是能源使用的轉型那你有沒有瞭解因為過去我們都比較關注的是在歐盟的這個西本 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6526.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6538.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
但是我們現在面對到日本如果他們開始來減碳制度的時候如果我們沒有辦法互相的就是說取得抵減或者是他承認我們在國內繳的這個碳費的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6541.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6566.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
有沒有可能台灣的產品進到日本去會面臨到雙重課稅的就是說被課這樣子碳排水的這樣子的同樣的情況那對於我們的出口這就影響到經濟啦是不是對於我們產品輸入的話那就影響到所有的生產的成本啦是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6566.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6591.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
是 針對委員剛剛所關心的部分我們會轉請我們包括產發署的部分針對如何協助企業在針對日本提出來的這些的策略相對的一個應處那另外一個部分的話事實上像西邊的這個徵收包括碳費的部分據我瞭解環境部已經有在做我知道 因為過去我們都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6591.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6609.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
考慮到就是歐盟這個部分但是就是說面對到日本的制度已經開始要轉變了尤其是他們現在所涵蓋的是就是平均碳排放量10萬噸以上的企業要納入監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6611.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6636.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
對於台灣有多少企業受到相關的影響那我希望經濟部你也要回去好好的盤查好嗎好 是這個部分是不是也要協助他們對於疏日的企業如果未來要進入這樣子的碳排的這個納稅的這個部分的話那也需要對於他們的減碳設備給予協助好嗎是 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6639.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6646.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好好那謝謝喔那我想要再請教我們的公平會的副主委喔謝謝副主委請教一下你上次說我們那個中東的衝突啊導致的這些聯合壟斷的就是漲價的行為啊那你要做調查現在調查的結果怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6664.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6691.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們總共目前調查了37家業者北中南都有那目前看起來是第一個價格的確有上漲但是上漲的幅度差距很大那供給面也有點緊縮不過業者最近有跟我們表示說因為政府有所謂的平價專案出來所以那個緊縮的情況有稍微緩減那就供品會的執掌部分我們當然調查有沒有聯合烘台聯合囤積的部分那我們針對我們調查結果來判斷目前是沒有這樣的市政 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6692.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6715.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
但是我們持續都還要繼續調查當中對啊你們要持續調查你們如果沒有調查那說不定行為就出來了你們持續的調查是不是才有辦法讓這個就是說好像有這樣子的情況那是不是那未來如果就是說我們面對到民眾的這個檢舉或反應的時候那我們也會反應給公平會好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6716.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6725.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
還有我想請教一下就是我們公平會對於反托拉斯基金你在115年編列了2455萬數位經濟競爭政策研究及倡議計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6733.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6758.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我想要請問就是我們的大數據壟斷就是像我們說的現在數位時代你的企業聯合壟斷的行為或者是跟追價式的APP或這樣子的一個就是說演算法的方式還有我們AI模型排他性的授權等新興的議題你是否已經有明確的執法白皮書或者是準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6759.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6783.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我想我們基本上有一個初步的一個架構啦當然對這個數據壟斷這個問題主要的是你執法機關本身的數據執法能力也要強化所以我們不然在軟硬體的部分我們都有編列預算就是希望將來能夠更強化本會在數位執法就是業者用數位的方式來是違反競爭法我們本身也要有能力可以監測出來你可以上次是說要用委外的方式是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6783.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6793.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
文化就是跟學者專家研究計畫當然本身我們自己本身也有會內同學有些訓練跟再教育的課程希望他能夠那你覺得我們下面有落後歐美的進度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6795.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6820.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
因為在歐美有些國家它基本上它的機關內部是有一個叫做數位的部門裡面全部都是數據分析專家對所以當然如果從這個角度來看的話我們當初有提到就是說我們國內的人才培育是不是目前有不足的情況當然人才培育要花一點時間就我們機關來講我們本身受制於這個圓額的管控我們也不可能說去增加這樣部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6821.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6838.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以我們唯一能夠做的就是強化我們本身內部的一些數位的一個那還是你認為這應該是速發部應該負責有些比較技術面當然是速發部他比較有能力來處理那速發部現在目前到底負責什麼樣的部門這個可能我比較不方便跟他回答不過我們會跟速發部有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6839.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6855.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們跟數碼部之間是有密切的合作啦有些技術性的問題我們會跟數碼部這邊來溝通請他們提供專業意見給我們參考還有我想要請教一下就是你反托拉斯的基金預算當中你減列了95萬的檢舉聯合違法聯合行為的獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6860.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6885.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我想要請問一下因為各國他都在就是說增加這個檢舉的就是激勵這樣子的機制然後來破獲秘密的卡特爾的這樣子的一個行為那我想說你為什麼要在這時候檢舉我想這主要原因其實有一點兩難就是說我們當初會把檢舉獎金放寬是因為希望民眾能多多捲起可是從實施以來我們發現開始有出現我們所謂職業檢舉人 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6887.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6898.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那他的檢舉其實很簡單就是網路上看到一句話他就把它印下來就直接丟給你公平會他說這個是聯合行為那我們後續請他再提供更具體的事證他就不提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6899.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6923.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那但是它也符合形式上也符合說我已經有訊息給你所以我們才會修改我們的辦法所以將來你透過一些公開一般人可以取得資訊的廣告所拿到的資料這個我們不會發給獎金不會發獎金對我們不會發給那你們要發獎金的當然就是你提供給我們這些是有價值的就是一般人是找不到的內部的訊息的這個部分當然對我們辦案就有很高的價值我們就會給獎金原則上是這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6926.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6935.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好謝謝謝一鳳委員待會陳昌明委員諮詢完畢後休息8分鐘接下來我們有請李玉玲委員諮詢謝謝主席請陳主委陳主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6956.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6977.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
各位在這2024年的時候Uber打算要用9.5億的美元併購了這個福盆檔後來呢我們公平會特別就以限制競爭的不利益大於整體經濟的利益否決了這兩家的這個併購但是這個現在東南亞的外送平台這個龍頭啊這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6979.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6985.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
Global也宣布要以6億的美金來併購Fupenda那雖然說他沒有在我們臺灣來落地但是你看起來他好像不會有這個限制競爭的情形可是這個Global他背後最大的這個股東就是Uber他佔的這個持股有13%所以如果說合併成功的話會不會就是Uber跟這個Global他們可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7005.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7030.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
就是這兩家公司啊他們最後會交叉持股跟相互的影響公司的決策最後會變成變相壟斷了台灣整個外送市場到時候他們聯合的行為你會防不勝防對不對委員關切這個問題我們在這個案子的審查過程當中我們會去注意而且會去要求業者配合我們調查那事實上我們現在已經有要求他提供一些這方面的資料給我們參考所以我們會去觀察他的實質影響力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7033.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7062.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
他實質影響力 除了說交叉持股這樣的一個現象以外基本上我們還需要更多的事證來證明他的確有透過這個實質的影響力來遂行所謂的限制競爭的行為 因為這兩家公司最後的決策都是在他們手上 是所以影響力跟控制力你們要注意他們相關的事業影響力的地方 我們會注意他相關的影響力但是因為事業的跨公司的持股這並不是法律禁止的所以我們要以這個理由來質疑他的結合 你必須要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7063.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7075.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為兩家公司都等於他自己的公司這決策的話就會影響整個控制被控制控制力因為控制力有但是是不是控制力就會有影響力啊控制力就會拿來影響對控制力跟影響力所以你們要掌握這個關鍵的這個資料好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7082.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7085.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那因為這個國內部他在3月27號就已經向公平會提出了合併的這個申請那如果說他們沒有任何的缺失的話或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7094.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7103.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
有沒有需要補件我目前是要要求他補件目前在補件那你們說還沒進入實質的審查還沒因為這個你們有那個延誤審查的這個檢科的紀錄之前 案子受罷之前吳博士你們就是有這種情形那現在我們認為說你們先進入實質審查如果有需要的話你們再叫他補件就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7116.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7140.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
不然你就一直延宕下去像之前的話你延宕了6個月之久啊因為法律規定不能這樣子就是說你一定要是正式補件完成我們才可以算這個審查權可是你在公平法第11條裡面就特別有講到啦那如果說他們需要補件的時候再可以補件就好因為這個公平法教育裡面這個這11條裡面有講說你最長是90天的時間嘛是 是那時間的起算是以補件完成來算 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7140.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7157.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以那你就你都不見識審查的話就一直延宕到審查還算90天我們不會一直延宕因為這個大家都非常關心啦是是是所以我希望你們會盡快審查我們會盡快我們會盡快8月底會不會完成現在4月這個我沒辦法給一個確確的答案因為這個案子要經過委員會討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7159.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7184.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以補件完成可是你們期限就是90天啊沒有90天是從補件完成算所以在補件的時間我們是沒有期限的限制主委因為這整個這個外送平台的影響不只是這整個這個外送還有關係到勞動力是是這勞動力的影響還有這產業的發展跟我們食品的物流還有所有收費的定價等等這些都會影響所以大家都非常的關心尤其是我們的民眾消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7186.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7214.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
還有外送平台的這個外送員他們都關心著所以未來你如果說這些事情的話你一定要有橫向的溝通各部會包括勞動部都是啊之前勞動部隊跳出來反對表示你沒有溝通好嘛所以你這是一定要跨部會溝通跟專家學者尤其是外送人員這點好不好我們會跟專家還有各部會之間相關的議題都要去來多做溝通盡快審查因為社會大眾大家都很關心那接下來就是說我們這個加盟電腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7216.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7230.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個連鎖加盟跟這個加盟商他們之間的訂定合約的時候有些資訊重要資訊沒有披露出來的話很多加盟商加盟之後的話反而是做一天虧一天這種情形都有來跟你們這個公平會來求助希望你們做這個審查跟給他們一個裁判但是我們公平會卻是說在這個條款裡面沒有違反的這個25條的這個公平交易法尤其是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7245.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7263.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為受傷害被影響的人不多所以算是個案並沒有影響交易的這個次序是不是這樣子因為我們25條有足以影響交易秩序所以它是一個效果的要件所以如果單純只是一家你不能說有個案啦這整個就會影響啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7263.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7279.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
沒有如果說他檢舉的人你檢舉的家數很多這當然就會足以影響教育秩序嘛但是我們在實務上不處理的案子很多都是只有一家兩家所以要很多家才會影響教育秩序嗎也不是說很多家啦我們會綜合整個案子的嚴重程度來判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7280.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7294.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
但是就是如果單純只是契約上的糾紛而且家屬只有一兩家原則上我們會把它定位是屬於民事糾紛不是 主委你要注意到的就是說你不能看契約加盟商他們簽約還有品牌他們無故的揭露一些加盟店的一些資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7295.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7319.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這他們沒有揭露出來的話 像成本啊 或者是說他們上市或是免料繳的這些錢利金等等 這些都算重要資訊他如果在合約裡面沒有揭露的話 就影響加盟商因為他們剛剛第一次去加盟的話 他們都沒有經驗的所以就需要你們公平會站出來跟他們協助幫忙所以不能因為一個個案 不能有很多家受傷害你們才站出來 可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7320.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7348.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
就是說對於這個有品牌加盟的這些加盟商他們之間的資訊如果說不對等的情況之下你必須要出來更積極的有點作為好不好因為一樣還是受制於25條的要件不過我跟委員報告就是說我們在個案的審查裡面雖然加速是一個觀點是一個要件但是我們還會是實質判斷那個影響的部分所以只是因為過去我們加速大部分很多我們不處理的都是只有一家兩家那事實上影響的金額或是整個市場影響不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7348.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7367.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那25條要求我們要影響多少家你們才會處理啊要影響多大的金人才會處理其實要從個案來判斷啦要從個案來判斷那我這邊大概理解大概是這樣子但是這不是個絕對的數字就是說我們從我們過去處理過的不是絕對的數字有人受傷害公平委員就要站出來好不好所以我們會按實質個案來判斷謝謝委員好 謝謝李育穎委員接下來我們有請陳超明委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7385.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7393.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
市長請坐首先請我們公平委員會我們的陳主委請公平委員陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7397.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7416.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
陳主委今天請教的題目可能看起來比較新鮮我今天要請教我們陳主委就是以市場監理的角度防範台灣臨場試驗中心聯盟的一個限制跟競爭的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7417.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7443.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那這個生技產業這是一個新的開始尤其生技產業也是我們賴總統特別重視台灣一個健康的產業那目前台灣的生技產業也是一個蓬勃的發展它不亞於一個半導體的產業等它成形的時候因為它是關係著我們生命跟健康所以非常重視一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7444.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7468.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
但是這個臺灣臨床實驗中心的聯盟它是藥品或醫療器材在臨床實驗階段雖然還沒有具體的商品產出但是我相信你也曉得臨床實驗是本身是藥品取得上市許可的最重要條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7469.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7496.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
它具有高度市場進入的門檻效果所以目前市場上也可以說是高度靈感的一個競爭要素會對後續的藥品市場競爭造成實質的影響我特別提出來我不曉得你對於藥品要進入人體試驗我們常常講美國的大公司要實驗要花了很多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7498.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7510.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這一點台灣是開始準備要進入世界杯的時候一個最重要的基本工作所以你對於藥品的那個臨產試驗你有沒有深入一個體認跟認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7513.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7533.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我想剛剛委員提到的部分剛剛他一開始就談到監管因為公平會比較不是一個監管的機關這個因為涉及到產業的福祉產業政策但是對於這個福祉產業也要有兩下像我們台灣就很奇怪我們抽的那個加持院就只有美國日本進來台灣那麼進步又不給台灣人做 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7534.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7553.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以我現在不是說我監管你的立場他現在只有單獨一家對我們現在的觀點從公平會的角度來看就是說現在假設這兩家那為什麼呢你們全公平會的委員啊貴姓夫你是在115年3月15日投資中特別點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7554.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7573.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
他說 去年114年12月8日 衛福部大力支持下集結全台32家頂尖醫療及研究機構的台灣臨床試驗中心的聯名 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7574.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7593.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
叫做TACTC正式的成立它的目標是在整合制度流程將台灣打造為亞太臨床試驗的一個輸流聯名致力於統一IRP就是人體試驗委員會的文件與審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7597.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7611.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
合約的翻本人才庫的建置及受試者的一個招募平台這幾個都非常重要如果你有再申請要進去的這是一個必備的流程那我為什麼會提這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7613.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7629.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
32家頂尖醫療機構,過從臺灣臨產事業的中心人們,那只有一家。因為32家我很懷疑,如果你在生技產業裡面有琢磨,你就發覺這裡面的學問很多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7632.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7660.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你要就是國家成立一個獨立的機構來檢驗這個流程他現在找了32家我會說這跟他獨一無二的生意大家要乖乖的拜託他所以你們要特別注意不是你們監管沒有問題這個叫做壟斷再來你們那個公平委員他說雖然有至於降低聯傳委託試驗的前置成本確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7662.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7677.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但是從市場經理以公平交易法的角度不然我不會提出來你們以前委員談的我說這篇文章很有意思把它拿起來看他說當前台32家頂尖醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7679.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7698.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
在人民內他的統一交易條件他交換敏感的世紀資訊他排除成年的參與或禁止存取資料時這是我已經觸及公平交易法的聯合行為或者限制的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7702.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7715.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因為如果你有做過藥品或是怎樣要去臨床試驗台灣現在很多都在推展這樣那只有這一家能做而且32家頂級的醫療機構我沒有跟這32家好好的聯合一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7721.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7736.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我真的會我們真的小的生技公司非常困難你告訴我到底是你們管的嗎你們有資格人管嗎他就提出來了因為這是106年的案子那個我強求了解應該是這是國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7737.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7757.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
衛福部他本身有參與這樣的一個計畫當中那這個可能是基於機關的產業政策來做的那公平會角度我們當然不是說這樣的東西全部都沒有問題而只是說通常我們在機關形成這個產業政策過程當中我們會做某一種程度的我們所謂的競爭倡議就是說他們這樣的一個計畫本身有沒有哪一點可能會有競爭上的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7758.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7775.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我是不曉得公平會過去是不是有做這一塊但是就對於像類似國家出面來主導的這樣的一個大型的產業政治的發展我們是可以扮演一定的市場角色我是這樣啊有做過區議員做過聲援都了解這裡面的奧妙在哪講是這麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7783.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7800.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
國家成立獨立機構大家還相信他32家這裡面那種交錯複雜的關係實在會讓你眼花瞭然不曉得從哪裡走走說一個要要到成行很苦那我這邊特別是提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7801.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7816.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們的公平交易委員會特別注意一個問題不要變成大企業那幾個企業在掌控這個市場現在的生技產業也很多中小企業它有獨特的機制特別的研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7817.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7845.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
不是虧聯名你以後進去就非常的困難所以這個政策我倒是很懷疑存在某種的目的跟用意到底在哪裡要嘛你國家就成立像美國雖然FDA的一個機構全部來審怎麼跟32家在中間在一起變成獨一無二連場試驗都要在裡面你現在跟我說國家政策很多都是國家政策成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7846.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7875.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這些是藥品到最後是變成商品我是希望你提早我們會注意當然我們注意的點是在這個政策這個聯盟形成以後它後續的一些行為有沒有違反你好好去跟衛福部溝通這樣會引起大家其他的聯想好不好謝謝委員提醒我們會持續我們會注意這個問題AI生存式的廣告現在很厲害你們要趕得上追得上我現在那個影片做得太好 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7877.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7880.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們會注意 我們持續要關注這個問題有 我們持續要注意這個問題謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳昌明委員 謝謝那我們現在休息8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8216.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8216.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8438.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8438.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8494.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8520.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
繼續開會那我們接下來請邱志偉委員質詢謝謝主席 首先請這個經濟部來政策請經濟部來政策 園區管理局曾副局長園區管理局 地調地質調查徐主任地方中心徐主任這個委員好 這個市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8523.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8550.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
先請教這個海淡廠 之前我也曾去海淡廠 那時候你在水利署署長那以前是台中臨時機組 我們遷到這個興達電廠裡面那一年大概有一天大概十萬噸那我們希望蓋一個永久性的海淡廠為什麼我會這樣去設想你十年五年之後 整個從沙文到這個南子產業園區都是半導體製造中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8551.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8579.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
水 電 絕對不能缺所以現有的這個水的容量 水的供應量即便我們 我蓋了兩個再生水廠那時候我們一起努力 鋼橋 對不對還有楠梓再生水廠 是我爭取的 還有這個兩座再生水廠好 還是不夠 你如果再往北未來還有一個陸珠財源區要規劃所以未來的海淡廠有沒有 現在有沒有新的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8580.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8601.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
阿蘇委員所說的我們針對區域發展特別是南邦大溪谷的這個部分我們針對於水的這個組織有沒有新的計畫就有沒有新的地點因為可見當時你們規劃的地點好像地方上有意見我希望你們跟地方溝通在原址如果可以的話在原址再蓋 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8603.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8626.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
地方上如果可以支持 我覺得最好就在原子來蓋 你知道原子那個地方在哪裡嗎新南海電廠裡面嘛 旁邊 靠近永安嘛那如果我們地方民眾還是覺得不妥你們另外再找地點 好不好這個部分我覺得還是要繼續推動啦一天十萬噸對未來產業的需求非常重要因為白富產業園區現在在遭傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8629.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8633.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那個玻璃產業園區也是我爭取的對不對你很清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8635.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8661.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個也是我選的後來市政府認為說這個未來整個S行帶在半導體的不管是先進製程或者是豐碩也好都可以集中在男子跟白虎對不對所以由市政府去做統籌規劃那我們也樂觀其成百事經濟部 產化局要獨找了後來給市政府目前的最新進度你有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8661.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8689.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
現在好像是地方政府已經審過基礎設施包括公設是誰來蓋基礎設施公設比方說有一些公共建築物一些基礎設施是誰來蓋是政府來蓋還是政府來蓋政府你直接講好了政府白埔現在目前還是由地方政府來做主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8690.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8715.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
包括公共設施包括這些聯外道路都是由地方政府嗎因為目前看起來開發單位不能看起來目前就是地方政府在做整個開發主體我是擔心財源不夠你這公共設施你要把它完善的話聯外交通要把它這個很通暢這個沒有中央協助不行我覺得是不是這個市長你跟原區這個楊局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8717.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8734.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
再找市政府談一下看需要中央哪些協助我們再請園區管理局跟市政府對接一下包括推進的進度大家希望中央地方合作的地方你們對接情況再讓我知道一下因為陸族財源園區那也是我爭取的對不對有沒有最新的進度那政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8736.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8764.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
目前來講比較陸主園區目前確實比較沒有持續推動了那個地點我們已經決定了那地點我們開了好幾次會決定了未來在北高雄還是要有個財源園區北高雄財源園區現在已經成型了招商也都滿了那也是我費盡九牛二虎之力那陸主財源園區我們繼續推動好那個地熱地熱部分這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8766.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8787.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我是覺得目前這個對地熱 我覺得台灣的條件非常好但是從這個未來 從1.2GW到200MW是差了6倍 因為是國化會公布的 一個是行政院公布的那下調到這個200MW 我是覺得一定有出現環境上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8788.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8814.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
包括行政流程 中央地方完全不一開發區也受到很嚴重的限制產業供應鏈的能量不足我很具體的要求經濟部是不是能夠建立地熱一戰式的審查機制把中央跟地方流程統一另外你要檢討國家公務員開發限制的問題你參考其他國家經驗 冰島 日本 紐西蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8815.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8843.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
然後政府的整合需求要引進國際專警的能量就跟離岸風電一樣然後建立在地溝通的指引你要有個指引才能做在地溝通我是覺得針對我這四個建議方案我希望說三個月之內請經濟部提出一個規劃報告沒有問題上個月好那最後一個問題各位先請回請教我們公民會陳副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8847.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8867.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這個主席我很難得時間有超過這個問題比較重要稍微超過一下也不會超過太離譜我只質詢不能無邊際的質詢這個單一通路單一售票通路那個主委有沒有買過演唱會的票有買得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8869.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8895.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我不是透過這個網路買的那你透過什麼特別管道因為像其實那個票的通路有不同嘛像古典音樂大部分透過寬宏等等其他的網站所以我沒有用過這個網站我是說這個流行音樂的Hip Hop類似這種我也沒去聽過我跟你一樣我都聽古典音樂所以票比較好買那你其他這個秒殺所謂秒殺就是說瞬間4萬票4萬張票就賣完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8897.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8924.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那是有特定的售票平台對不對那它會有一定的遊戲規則比如說最近接到很多民眾陳情你這個特定平台因為它一直刷刷之後它認為它是一個機器在運作所以它就永久封鎖這民眾帳號它只是買票買得比較急動作比較快就被封鎖了封鎖其他兩家也不能用 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8926.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8933.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
等於說他沒有永遠被排除在這個買票的通路當中啊他只能被迫去買黃頭票 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8935.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8958.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這種情況越來越多是 我跟各位報告一下就是說從競爭的觀點來看可能我們對這個議題關切的點是在於爭取售票代理權那個競爭而不是說拿到代理權以後事後對消費者那塊競爭因為所有的表演都有它的獨特性所以一旦你搶到代理權以後當然對消費者來講沒有什麼替代的選擇所以你代理權要怎麼去做一個優化呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8959.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8967.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們還是把重點擺在那個競爭爭取那個售票代理權的部分那如果從這個角度來看我們以現在的目前競爭售票代理權是有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8970.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8992.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我目前觀察到的是說就如我們剛剛跟委員報告還有一些其他的售票管道當然到底他們實質的情況事實上我們持續都有在做產業的瞭解那目前看起來當然委員關心的產業再去瞭解一下瞭解三家其中只有一家有在賣比方說這個A演唱會只能A這個售票平台賣其他兩個B跟C不能賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8994.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9015.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
對 但是我們關切的點是說當他決定要由某一個平台來賣的過程當中是不是其他兩家有在搶你能不能一個月把你們的撤進方案 改進方案怎麼樣讓這個遊戲規則能夠更公平我可以給委員一個目前我們對這個產業的初步瞭解給一個書面給我這個已經接到很多的陳情了在A平台他是刷了幾次就被封鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9016.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9038.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
他們說B跟C他也不能去不能去購買所以三個平台全部被封鎖像這種這種我們這個消費者很多很多所以我可以跟針對這個目前市場的現況還有這個相關的議題給委員一個書面報告好 謝謝謝謝主席容許我發言這個超時一點點謝謝應該的謝謝邱昭輝好 接下來我們請這個柯志恩委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9051.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9051.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
謝謝莊委 我們請次長請經濟部賴次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9059.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9077.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
委員好次長好我想今天有非常多的委員根據土石採取法提出很多的修正特別是第36條我想大概過去的法規都放在這個地方但是因為美濃大峽谷的事件那個實在是挖的讓大家太觸目驚心了所以就有很多委員紛紛的就提高法則特別把這個所謂的刑法給他放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9081.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9087.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
事實上這些很多的罰則全部都在這裡面的我們就一一來審視以我們這樣的修法來說的話有沒有辦法遏止這樣子的一個狀況那基本上你剛剛在質詢台上說兩個禮拜之後院版就會出來因為我剛剛看一下你們的報告這個方向跟委員的修法其實都大同小異沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9099.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9111.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是 但是我們希望針對於蓄意而且是牟利的所謂的倒採行為好那我們就來看看一些蓄意好不好那我們就來看這個細則的一個條文當中那你看你只要構成條件是意圖盈利對不對意圖盈利的話你要除五年以下還有有些時候可以併科五千萬以下的罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9121.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9141.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那我認為盜採沙士這是完全不可以原諒的但是呢有些的條文上面我們是不是有商榷的一個空間舉例來說你並沒有去區分合法申報瑕疵跟惡意非法盜採的差別這兩個是有一個差別因為你剛剛所提到的意圖意圖在法律的用字上面是我們構成犯罪的一個核心條件但是呢它是屬於一個比較是屬於個人的心理的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9145.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9147.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那如果法官在做審判的時候呢可能會透過自由新政的方法來認定意圖是否存在那你如果沒有做區分的話我必須要老實講有些時候可能他只是在申報數量的一個誤差所以我說他是合法但是有瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9161.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9170.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
有些人是完全是蓄意就是要來拿這些你沒有把它區分清楚的話很多公務員會因為怕事又因為KPI的關係搞不好在這個地方他就會這樣子完全集中火力完全就是來給你重罰那這個部分裡面可能會造成一些錯殺會不會有這樣問題你們跟法務部在這個用詞上面有沒有做過一些的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9183.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9204.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個在過去修法的過程裡面我們跟法務部做討論至於說針對於合法或是民眾自用的部分小量的採取我們原來在採取法的第三條裡面就有六個條我認為還是要有一個空間所以說你這個部分裡面法上上去的話在解釋上面一定要更明確這是我所擔心的謝謝委員指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9205.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9221.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
还有一个就是说你看虽然我刚讲了嘛每一个人都有这个法条但是呢你在执行上面你这个即使是罚到2500他的获利是3亿5亿的这个还是一样所以你一定要有一些配套那当然你也提到了这一定要看地方政府的一个执行的一个层面啊那 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9222.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9235.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
往往就是因為很多人都是拿人頭來啊 這個次長你也知道嘛 拿人頭嘛所以以至於他違規的時候 地方政府要代為整復的時候常常面臨 娶沒人 也沒人給我交的處罰金那你要怎麼辦 這個措施你要怎麼辦他沒有辦法繳出罰金啊 你擺在那邊怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9241.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9253.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
第一個我們透過包括刑法的部分的一個建立刑法是目前為止我認為是最有效但是我說你拿不到因為你要讓他恢復原狀嘛因為有時候債務組他沒錢你要怎麼辦所以說怎麼辦所以我們現在在修法的部分有包括所謂的得代理刑的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9261.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9285.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
代旅行費用的預存是不是不是代旅行因為代旅行費用的預存的話就是代表說有申請人他先去繳說那很多人口報繳不起啊那事實上現在全國的所謂的合法的所謂土石採取場數量是非常少的但是我們現在發現的問題它不是在合法的採取的過程裡面來產生非法的這個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9285.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9308.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以他蓄意針對他完全沒有申請的部分所以我才跟你說嘛你法擺在那個地方可是我們倒採以前只有在倒採的這個說實在還是非常多因為利益太大了所以我就說你一切的配套措施還有包括檢舉舉報的這個獎金的機制其實你都要思考法是一回事到最後都會通過因為每個人都有一致的方式但是執行的層面你一定要給他更多的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9309.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9335.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
一個配套好不好這是非常重要的最後給我一分鐘的時間我對於翡翠水庫來說的話我還是要請問一下翡翠水庫今天是鬧得沸沸揚揚但是呢是監察院糾舉當初的水利署不好意思次長你就是當初的水利署署長你認為監察院這樣糾舉有沒有錯誤因為他認為是完全是浪費的水的一個資源而且對民生用水來說有太多珍貴的水源就是因為這樣子將流到大海去 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9337.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9366.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
所以監察院來糾舉水利署次長你那時候是水利署的署長你面對現在這樣的爭議的話你真的要站起來因為我現在認為是翡翠水庫管理局曾經屬下的他們背著非常大的一個黑鍋我覺得這整個問題都是我們能源的問題以至於讓我們用很多珍貴的水民間用的水 民生用的水必須要來承擔這樣的一個角色所以監察院才出這樣糾舉我不曉得大家在吵什麼這個冤有圖債有主啊 糾察院做這部分你同不同意 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9367.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9385.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
監察院除了水利署之外還有台北翡翠水庫管理局但是水利署是一個很重要的一個角色嘛那我個人覺得嘛那時候監察院所講的其實是很清楚他就告訴你說民生占比只有30然後還有非常多的東西是流失 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9386.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9410.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
所以我個人認為在今天這麼多爭議什麼得到便宜還賣瓜等等之類當中我覺得當初應該針對監察院所提出的糾正來做出一些的澄清到底翡翠水庫有沒有發生這樣的狀況發生這樣的狀況之下面我們該怎麼樣來處理次長我覺得你很認真但是在面對這件事情的時候你應該站出來針對你那時候的所整個的脈絡跟過程也應該站出來講一些的話吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9412.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9425.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
針對於稀缺的水資源我們希望說有比較好的調控而且現在的預報的技術水平都是相當的高所以透過預報還有包括管理的層面可以減少水資源的浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9427.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9446.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對 我想只是說大家爭論的時候 我都覺得都已經爭論到其他太多政治上面議題 應該回歸到我們真正的能源 翡翠水庫的水是不是適合用來做於發電然後民間用水到底如何能夠在增其水資源之下 不要讓它過度浪費 這才是我們討論這件事情最大的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9447.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9462.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
沒錯吧基本上多目標的水庫啊特別是像翡翠水庫啊或是像曾文水庫他都是不是以發電為主要目的他是一個附屬的我們希望他在發揮主要的蓄水供水的功能了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9463.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9490.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
然後在附屬的這個部分和一些的發電的效益那這個過程裡面我們不希望水資源有所浪費所以我們說他有提出一些的改善你如果覺得監察院這個改善可以你其實就應該好好來做我只是認為現在目前為止討論到這些問題的時候花太多時間都是在一些細微的政治操作而真正對於監察院所糾舉那一些我們應該做的改善甚至更高的一個能源問題我覺得那個才是我們大家應該共同focus的重點對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9491.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9512.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝 對於人所需要的 不管是水跟電的部分經濟部一直很重視這個問題 我們持續的來精進那兩個禮拜之後就看你們提出的願板 好嗎我剛剛說的吐息 對 好 謝謝好 謝謝各自委員 謝謝接下來我們請張家俊委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9524.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9530.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
感謝主席那我是不是請公平會的代理主委請公平會陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9535.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9561.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那去年本席就提醒過公平會AI生成的不實廣告將會是市場誠信的一個災難那我們現在看新聞這已經不是未來式了而是現在進行式那最近在網路社群上連很多中醫、民醫、權威都被AI盜用影像去賣假藥那這些影片的聲音、表情、嘴形真的到一般民眾是難以辨識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9563.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9580.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
一模一樣那這些AI廣告喔能然在臉書LINE啊上面橫行我想請問一下針對這樣子利用AI偽造公眾人物專家醫生來誤導消費者的行為公平會有什麼樣子的作為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9580.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9598.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
委員所提這個案子因為這涉及到醫療衛生所以這個衛福部本身對這個不實廣告是有一些規範那對從我們的部分來講不實廣告的部分其實我們已經有因為我們持續都有在做網路上的監控那最近今年我們已經把AI的監控納入計畫當中所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9598.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9618.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
業者已經來幫我們做一些AI的初步掃描所以已經開始執行了啊對對對 那目前其實我們也有發現有有涉嫌有違法的個案是 那所以這個可能要更積極一點可能也要主動跟速發部或者是平台啊Meta Line來溝通建立一個快速下架的機制喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9619.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9629.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
而且這個是本席去年就要求了因為面對這個盜用臉孔、偽造聲音的廣告其實我覺得公平會是應該要主動繼續積極一點來監督是 我們會持續廣正方面來精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9634.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9661.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那接下來我想要跟主委討論的是現在社群平台上非常夯的也非常泛濫的就是瘦瘦真跟各類的減肥藥品的這個行銷那瘦瘦真在我們台灣是屬處方用藥那依釋法明文規定禁止對大眾廣告而且網路販售代購都是違法的但實際上在 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9663.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9671.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
在LINE社群 甚至在TREI上都有販售跟開團的廣告 請問主委公平會對於這些廣告有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9672.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9694.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這些廣告因為涉及到醫藥所以我們跟衛福部是有分工這類型廣告我的意思是說不實廣告你要不要管不實廣告我們管啊是不是 這個也不對啊對 但是就是因為廣告有時候會涉及到專業所以你也要跟衛福部要橫向溝通啊你不能每一次我問公平會什麼事都是別人的事跟你公平會都沒有關係因為有些廣告涉及到專業的判斷我就問你嘛公平會會對這些廣告開罰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9699.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9703.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
你要怎麼專業判斷他只要放上授授真三個字他就已經是不實廣告了因為他本身就不應該向大眾廣告也不能夠網路販售嘛你連這個都沒辦法嗎不是因為這涉及到我們機關之間已經有分工的協議啦所以這個就只有衛福部能罰你不能罰你不能罰你有這個明文規定我們之間有分工的協議怎麼分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9724.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9740.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
就是基本上涉及到醫療衛生的這些然後所以他還要再設一個設一個單位去檢舉是嗎因為衛福本身醫法就可以採取不實廣告跟醫療衛生有關的不實廣告所以你這個都不歸你管對 他們如果覺得說這個不是跟他們有關的他們會把案子再送回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9740.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9754.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我就問瘦瘦身的廣告它裡面就宣稱免醫生處方私訊有現貨而且保證不復胖不用運動也能瘦主委本席很清楚這一劑針類在醫學上有其療效但這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9758.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9768.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
誘導民眾跳過遺囑宣稱不用運動也能受淡化藥物副作用風險的行銷方式有沒有違反公平交易法第21條虛偽不實或引人錯誤的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9773.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9791.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
一樣就跟委員報告這個是涉及到醫療是不是有我就問你嘛有沒有如果他所做的事情根據醫療專業判斷是做不到的當然這個可能都不是廣告只是說那個拆除的情況不會在你這邊所以你公平會這個也不能做那個也不能做我就不曉得說公平會存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9795.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9815.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
價值是什麼我就講啊即便藥物本身有效但是不用處方就能買保證不負胖這難道不是典型的不實廣告嗎它是不實但是你採取的機關不用是公平會啊那否則你公平會只能做什麼你告訴我我告訴你我每一次問你就好像這個AI |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9817.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9832.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
你說這可能要速發布啦什麼什麼每一次我每一次問你你都告訴我說那可能要什麼什麼其他部會來做那你存在的意義是什麼我們處理很多不是廣告不是廣告是我們大眾的業務那你今年處理多少你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9835.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9858.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
你也不知道嘛 你還要問人一百多件就是一百多件 你覺得這個比例符合嗎你知道現在幾月嗎現在已經四月底了一天都不止一百多件了就是跟委員報告一天都不止一百多件了我們其實不是只有跟委務部我們跟很多其他主管機關都有不時廣告的分工啦是 我知道 所以我的意思是你們根本沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9859.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9882.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
功能嘛 你們的功能到底是什麼所以我建議你們要盡速的主動跟Meta跟Line這些平台上溝通建立一套違規廣告的快速通報下架機制我們不可以讓這些社群平台淪為違法廣告的溫床公平會到底能不能主動出擊呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9884.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9895.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
剛剛委員所談到這些措施啊其實像樹化部他們都有一些基礎措施我覺得你公平會要努力證明你有存在的價值你知道嗎我每一次問你喔說實在我已經有點懶得來問公平會要不是我們立法院有這個評鑑的那個壓力我真的懶得問你了因為你問你什麼都沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9905.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9917.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
你一下子是經濟部的問題一下子是衛福部的問題然後一下子又是速發部的問題你存在的價值是什麼我現在就給你這個問題你回去好好想一想 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9927.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9954.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
好謝謝張家俊委員羅明才羅明才羅明才委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請龔平慧主委 請龔平慧陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9961.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9978.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 嗯 諸位齁 這個UberEats齁 要收購這個Hupenda齁 那當時是失敗那現在換成Glob這一家公司要來收購那Glob這一家公司勒 啊 經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9982.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9996.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
經過一些市場的一個調查基本上他雖然是在東南亞但是他背後的集團事實上也是他是在新加坡創立的那他的2016年的時候他的母公司就被收購 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9997.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10025.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那到後來的話事實上會發現他的內部結構事實上也跟包括微軟就是說跟UberEat還是有高度的一個關係所以在股權結構上來看的話你包括有微軟有UberEat那所以Grab跟UberEat基本上可以算是一個蠻有相關的公司那他現在要來收購 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10027.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10056.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
收購普遍打後會不會未來也是造成我們整個外送市場還是由單一企業然後去壟斷或者是寡占的一個情況跟委員報告一下就是這個案子跟之前那個案子是不太一樣因為之前那個案子結合以後市佔率達九成那當然知道委員關切的是說這個案子裡面其實背後真正的控制公司可能跟Uber也有一定程度的關係那這種實質的控制力是我們在審查這個案子我們會去注意到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10057.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10086.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
就是我們對於這個彼此之間的合縱聯橫股權的結構持股會不會對結合後的事業的經營產生實質的影響力這個我們在結合審查的時候會去注意那事實上我們現在也在要求他補件啦就是相關的資料我們來判斷說就是委員關切的這個議題是啊 因為我們現在就是擔心嘛 對不對就是說看起來UberEats去收購FuPenta這件事失敗了結果他們現在轉了是要變得也不是說他們轉啦就是說另外就跑出一家叫Grub |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10087.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10113.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那這個Club又它的大股東這個最大股東就是Uber Eats那又跟Uber Eats共同的股東就是這個就是它的微軟集團那從這樣看起來就是說他們蠻想要控制讓這個市場一致化那一致化之後對於外送者的權利基本上我覺得未必是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10114.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10135.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個是應該去注意的外送平台外送員保護的部分我想勞動部最近都有一些新的法規出來在保障外送員的權益我們這個案子的審查大概還是會在平台之間的競爭還有對整個外送市場的競爭影響程度我現在反而就是以後就沒有競爭了少了競爭對消費者除了對於他們的聘用的外送員 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10141.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10161.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
之外就是消費者的權利那消費者的權利很容易因為沒有競爭然後變得單一化然後就被犧牲所以我們關鍵的就是委員這邊所談到的這個13.07%這個所謂的最大股東的部分他到底有沒有可能在結合以後被濫用那這個我們需要有一些具體跟客觀的事證來做一些研判 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10162.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10184.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
因為未來會怎麼做往往是必須要有一些預測所以我們必須要從過去的證據還有它現在經營的策略我們做整體性的判斷跟評估有沒有這樣的可能性因為基本上法律並不禁止事業之間可以跨公司來持股所以如果我們要以不能夠單純以說跨公司持股這件事情就一定是有濫用的情況我們後續那個行為面的調查還是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10184.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10211.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
不然我們會盡量積極地我可以理解你說的啦但是這樣看起來就是他們很想看起來是他們想把它單一化所以我了解委員的關係好沒關係下一個議題下一個議題這個深層式的AI這個涉及到廣告不死那尤其是我們現在在臉書可以看到好多的那一種廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10212.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10240.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好多的廣告現在大概臉書平台啦或是一些不只是臉書啦這些我們用的一個社群軟體他們投放的廣告大概都會去檢視你的大數據然後去播放說你可能會要哪些廣告但是咧我舉啦現在我蠻常看到一些手遊的廣告啦他的手遊的廣告他的大概都是用生成式AI去產生的結果他的廣告內容跟他的遊戲內容完全不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10242.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10271.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
差很多啦廣告的那個大概看起來都很好玩的感覺然後一把它下載後就發現又差很多那這只是手遊的部分喔那接下來可能還涉及到的食品或者是涉及到的一些像女性的話可能會投射一些化妝品保養品的廣告都用AI生成式的那這種生成式AI的廣告到底需不需要對外界負責任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10272.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10299.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我想這個問題是一個很好的問題我們有參考一些國外的做法國外有一些國家他要求揭露通常他的揭露是從一些監管面的角度來處理譬如說剛剛委員談到醫藥衛生甚至於像這個防炸等等可能相關主管機關會要求你要揭露AI但是大部分都集中在特定的產業而且大部分都不是競爭主管機關來做那我們來我們如果我們要考慮要不要強制AI揭露這裡面因為公平會一旦要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10300.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10328.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
它的影響面是全面性的大概所有業者大家遵守這個揭露所以這個影響層面會比較大所以我們會審慎去評估這樣的需要啦當然我們可能會跟跨部會來做一些協商主委就我目前我我去我辦公室整理啦像歐盟是以及直接用立法要求就是從今年起所有深層式AI就是要標記它是深層式AI那在中國的部分咧基本上也有要求要標示那 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10330.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10347.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
南韓現在針對這個身衛廣告也是準備要修法要做標示那我們目前還是比較設定在公部門必須要這樣做就民間的部分台灣都還沒有走到像我剛舉例的這些但是我覺得畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10349.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10365.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
AI產生的就是AI產生嘛你要求他標示這件事情並不會對於他想要做這個廣告的人產生不必要的困擾因為他就是AI產生的啊所以我們只要求他必須要講清楚你這一個廣告你是透過AI產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10367.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10381.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
只是單純這樣的一個標誌,對人的困擾不多,但是對社會者可以擬憑很多不必要的誤會或者是一些過度看到美好的AI生成式的畫面產生的誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10383.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10397.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我覺得這件事情所以我想委員提醒我們會慎慎的考慮我們會去評估一下不過就跟委員報告一下剛剛委員提到那些國家就是我剛剛講的他基本上可能是基於某些特定產業的需求打造房屋所以他有一些非競爭主管機關產業主管機關來做一個揭示的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10400.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10428.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那公平會要不要做這樣一個揭露的要求就像剛剛跟委員報告了一旦我們要求了那應該是全面性市場所以我們必須要審慎的去評估當然過程當中我們會跟不同的機關之間我們會做一些跨機關的一個協商主委應該就是這樣啦我現在也想不到說全面性的話會有對社會產生怎樣的不必要因為我在想這件事你剛才講我在想所以說全面性要求說你這樣的一個影片它是AI產生的那我們就把它揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10430.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10431.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個會影響到怎樣嗎可能一些動畫片啦電影 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10438.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10461.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
要表示這個比較奇怪而已業者在設計廣告的時候有他的一些創意或是業務需求的考慮這一點我們要進一步了解才能知道就是說我要求他揭露以後對於他這個廣告的效果的影響因為乍聽之下的確像委員所講的應該不會有太大的法尊的成本啦是啦是啦 但是只是說業者就是想像上這件事情對他們的廣告效果可能會打折好廣告效果打折這件事對 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10466.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10489.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
只是對企業有差,對消費者來說沒差,我消費者至少知道說,喔,這個是AI創作的。我們也是要鼓勵企業還是多用人為去做一些創意的展現啊,雖然AI很好,但是有一些人的一些巧思放進去, |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10490.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10507.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
未必會比AI所投入的還要來得還要來得差嘛鼓勵企業多用人為的力量你要用AI當然你省了成本但是你必須揭露我覺得這也不對謝謝委員提醒我會把這個議題帶回去審慎一點好主委好謝謝委員好謝謝蔡宇委員接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10527.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10529.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝主席有請經濟部賴次長請經濟部賴次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10538.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10562.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
市長好首先我站在這裡是因為我提出了土石採取法第三條的修正草案我想先謝謝今天的洪玉祥召委因為我在110年也就是上一屆我進入到立法院我就有提案那這個會期一開始我在113年我也有提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10563.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10579.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那我修正的最核心的目的是為了要落實原基法第19條賦予原住民族在傳統文化既宜或者是自用非營利的前提之下我們依法可以採取土石免金許可的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10580.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10596.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那這樣的一個版本呢其實一直到今天能夠重見天日我很希望有機會順利的三讀通過所以我在這邊就是想要就教一下市長因為您之前也擔任過水利署的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10597.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10612.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以我相信您對於這些河川的土石也好或者是山上的土石其實你應該是有很多的認識也有很多的情感那其實在我們的原基法第19條剛才我有提過了就是有特別保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10613.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10633.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
原住民基于非盈利传统文化既以自用这样的一个精神可以来依法从事这些有关的规定所以呢这几年在立法院不论是野保法矿业法等等的法因为原本原基法有规定说他要定定很多的执法可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10634.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10663.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
大部分都是很慢很慢這些年才慢慢的進入到母法裡面那同樣的今天在土石採取法裡面呢也有這樣的一個困擾為什麼呢因為我們也有看到其實我們有依這個規定有做一個土石採取法它有依據第二條第三條就是有一個採取土石免申辦土石採取許可辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10664.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10689.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
可是對我們族人來講 這個是缺乏對傳統行為的直接豁免所以就會成為我們的一個文化保存的絆腳石我舉個例子來講 它因為沒有明定於母法就會產生第一個 就是它的法律位階會不足第二個就是它採取總量也不敷需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10689.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10699.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那第三個呢就是法規有很多也都不一致那因為我們的土石採取法呢它比較落後就會變成像是礦業法那邊已經修了採礦可以採土石卻處處受限這樣的一個怪現象那我這邊我們看一下像按照現行的辦法的話這些很漂亮的石板屋呢其實它根本不是辦法裡面所講的像 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10717.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10742.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
每個人有10立方或者是用於機關學校公共設施總量30立方他根本沒有辦法蓋出我們要的這樣的一個石板屋所以目前我們在很多地方包括石板屋我們也都一直都在努力如何幫助我們的傳統建物石板屋可以取得建造 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10743.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10768.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
法雖然改了 可是建築師不願意簽證所以我們依然沒有辦法讓石板屋取得這樣的一個建造 實照那我覺得一個族群 如果他的一些傳統文化 他的律法被否定掉就是等同踐踏他的主權 就好比我明明可以叫塞代 那我為什麼一定要被迫信一個漢姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10769.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10789.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那這個就是否定我自己文化上姓名的律法被迫來使用他族群訂定的一個律法所以我們很希望說今天昭緯排了這樣的一個法那我也針對土石採取法的第三條徵訂了第七款第八款那我特別高興的就是過去從110年基於族人的陳情那我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10794.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10812.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
做這樣的一個草案那今天呢終於能夠排審那也有很多的原住民立委呢也在今天就是能夠一同的參與用修正動議的方式那我真的是很希望說在這個部分我們能夠支持那不曉得次長您的看法你就簡單的做一個態度的表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10814.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10829.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
是 非常同意委員的見解那也感謝委員在過去長期一段時間來關注因為法律的一個不完備造成在執行面上有很多的擔憂的問題那原來的辦法裡面雖然說有列舉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10831.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10851.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是這些還是有一個數量所需那這個數量所需讓使用者的時候在使用上面非常的小心謹慎甚至不願意去用所以今天委員所提到的第三條的修正案裡面包括第一項第七款第八款這個部分可以促進我們原住民地區原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10853.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10867.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
在進行相關的修繕的時候會更好甚至不是不一定是原住民只要在原住民地區來修繕相關的這個費用的部分的話我們認為這合乎說就地使用的一個原則因為我們這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10869.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10888.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
土石採取法提出來的修正我們看到很多的平地的地區因為蓄意磨砺盜爛採造成國土的危害這個我們必須要加以遏止但是對於土石的正當的使用甚至是符合原住民基本法的部分經濟部都非常的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10890.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10913.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那謝謝次長我真的是在這邊希望說我們這個法修法能夠順利的通過因為對我們原住民族而言這是我們祖靈的建築基石對於文化的延續非常的重要所以在這邊呢就是僅代表我們原住民族人跟次長說聲謝謝也跟今天的趙偉主席說聲謝謝好那我們一起努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10916.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10935.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好 我們謝謝這一個吳立華委員 謝謝林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員賴慧媛 賴慧媛 賴慧媛委員接下來我們請盧憲一委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10942.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10946.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
謝謝主席 有請次長有請經濟部的次長委員好 次長好就剛才針對土石的採集 剛才委員也有說明當然我知道所有原住民 立委 大家都非常的關心這個議題我們是來自好山好水的地方常常看到水 用不到水 看到土 用不到土 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10969.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10982.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那昨天我延續昨天的問題就是希望 因為昨天沒有得到確確的答案希望苗栗 南投 屏東 台東 花蓮 宜蘭這幾個自來水跟就是減水的沒有到達90%以上的這個縣市能夠增設我們的工作人員 比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10986.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11014.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
因為他有時候要申請門牌有的時候要申請一些同意書可能都要勞駕我們地區的鄉公所來幫忙自來水的業務可是在這個管道的地區有時候一個鄉的範圍比綻花縣還大所以我想說希望在自來水的這個業務上面能夠多多用心接下來進到今天的主題我們針對第三條第六款 第七款 第八款我們都有修正理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11016.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11044.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
就針對海域的部分希望是對傳統文化記憶跟自用來使用就是非營利行為第二個就是第七款的部分就是免申請就是說如果是用在傳統文化部落的建築比如說機關、學校、教會、公共設施的話應該是免申請然後它的原則就是希望善用原住民主保留讓那個資源因為是根據我們現在原住民主基本法第十九條的第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11045.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11057.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
及時下來做修正最後呢就是希望他的數量部分我可以考次長我們莫拉克崩災我們高平溪那個流域的那個土方大概多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11059.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11086.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那個將近差不多超過2億對我剛剛看的資料是2.6億立方其實我們就看到這樣的因為我們就在那個地區看到那麼多砂石可是像我們原住民要使用任何一塊石頭可能我們看那個動輒政法所以我們今天修法的目的就是其實就是希望說政府能夠重視我們在地部落在地居民他其實是可以部分利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11086.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11107.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以這個數量的部分是常常讓人恐懼就是因為我不知道今天我是載了一卡車還是一個多少公噸的一個土方會違法或怎麼樣所以我們希望能夠公告它的數量然後是使用我們救災啊或者是防護修繕聚會所建的一個或者是修繕道路做一個優先的一個採集 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11109.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11123.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
是委員所提到的這個部分我們在今天參加會議的裡面我們也看到其他包括委員有修正的這個動議提出來那我們希望說未來在土池的採取的部分只要是不牡蠣 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11124.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11142.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
只要不是惡意然後去迫害國土的部分特別是在原住民地區如何踐行原住民基本法我們可以透過這次的修法裡面來大家共同討論是不是給我們一點時間我們來跟各個提案的委員來進行相關的這個溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11144.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11172.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
最後一個數據參考就是這是馬太安的部分就是馬太安的那個殺死量也超過6600萬可是到目前為止清出的那個數量也還不到100萬公噸超過了嗎清出來到離開河川的差不多超過2000萬超過2000萬那我的意思是說其實這些都對部落來講其實都是很可惜如果說可以用在地方重建的話我是不是有個具有數字可以讓大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11173.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11191.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
是 我們這個會請水利署在未來土石的去化甚至在未來馬太安的重建的部分因為這涉及到我們包括原住民地區的民眾的一些意見多多跟當地來交流最後跟委員說到委員所關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11192.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11208.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不管是我們偏鄉或是山區所謂的減益自來水的部分剛剛委員有提到是不是可以透過輔導團的方式來增進我們地方政府執行的量能這個我們也會請水利署依照這個方向來執行好 謝謝次長好 謝謝好 謝謝這個盧憲英委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11216.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11234.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
好那登記發言的委員除不在場者外區均與發言完畢詢答結束第二書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內書面答覆並複製本會委員並要求期限者從期鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11235.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11249.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
三个委员针对预算案如有相关提案请于5月4号星期一下午5点前送经济委员会办公室履历后续会诊预时不再收案 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11250.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11273.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
第二有關土石採取法部分條文修正草案審查一事應經濟部上午承諾兩週後將提出願板為考量多方意見修法更周延不得不先延後請行政院兩週後一定要送出願板讓經濟委員會併入審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11276.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11300.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
如果没有就是经济部和行政院的责任此外提醒经济部农业部注意到法务部今天提出来的书面意见像美龙大峡谷这样子的问题涉及的不仅是土石采取法的采伐问题按照稻采稻田的区域还会涉及到水土保持法 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11301.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11328.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
三波替保育利用條例以及農業發展條例的管制裁罰跟這個整復的規定所以必須讓各法的裁罰能夠橫平必須配套修正的水土保持法三波替保育條例和農發條例也請行政院兩週期限到也要一併提出對案在此宣告原定 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11330.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11347.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
本來是下午要採取的土石採取法部分條文修正草案這個我們另外定期再繼續進行審查那本日議程討論事項第一案跟第二案的詢答是結束的那現在的話我們就散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11361.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11364.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這裏面是一間餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11398.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11399.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
現在要做什麼? |