| IVOD_ID |
17376 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17376 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-23T08:33:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-23T12:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:25:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e063c99885a10fc21263d178d79b9582b1d480c4e0b4ea52905c5336073b16455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部就「脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與銜接機制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月22日及23日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:41 - 12:59:00 |
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現在繼續開會本會議議程為邀請衛生福利部部長教育部法務部就脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與銜接機制檢討進行專題報告並被質詢接著介紹在場的委員王振旭委員要鼓掌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1614.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1642.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
接下來介紹我們的政府部門列席官員衛生福利部石崇良部長社會局家庭署周道君署長保護服務師郭采榮市長社會救助局社工師蘇昭如市長教育部國民級學前教育署戴淑芬副署長保護部檢察師 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1643.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1657.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
陳真輝主任檢察官接下來請部會進行報告請衛生福利部石崇亮部長報告時間10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1664.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1686.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席、各位委員今天陳大彥邀請就脆弱家庭的兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇的跨體系運作及銜接機制檢討提出專案報告書面資料如我們所提供的以下就口頭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1686.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1710.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
做幾個重點的補充第一就是行政院已在114年核定了強化社會安全網計畫2.0執行的時間是從115年到119年那麼在既有的基礎上持續的優化強化前端的預防深化個案的服務以及充實相關的專業人力跟資訊系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1711.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1733.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那麼以確保在各年齡層跟弱勢族群也都能夠得到及時適切及持續的支持與服務那麼這是第一個那從這個114年那麼迄今那麼已經服務了這個42981戶的脆弱家庭那麼育有這個兒少的家庭是計有2萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1736.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1760.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
3396戶大概是近55%其中又以家庭的經濟現困需要接受協助最多也佔了52%另外家中主要照顧者為未滿18歲而少的這個也是我們近期所推出的未成年的家庭主要照顧者的支持方案的主要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1761.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1787.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個對象那麼大概是241戶那麼至於其他呢那麼這個相關的這個脆弱家庭也都透過中央跟各地方政府來結合轄內的網路單位及整合轄內的這個民間團體來共同的提供支持跟服務那這裡面也包含了經濟跟生活的支持包含了這個家庭的支持服務那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1788.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1804.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
還有育兒的指導服務那麼另外也有這個兒少跟家庭的社區支持服務以及發展遲緩兒童的社區療癒服務還有社區家事商談跟未成年子女的照顧服務那麼以及兒少照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1805.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1826.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
者的這個支持服務跟支援等等所以這個涵蓋的面向相當的寡而至於這個兒少保護的通報的案件數呢那麼從112年到114年也成長了近三成那麼個案的形態跟家庭的複雜程度那麼也有所各種不同所以都會經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1828.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1854.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
評估之後列入在兒少的保護專案裡面主管機關也需要在三個月內去擬定家庭的處遇計畫按照個案的需求整合跨體系的多元資源來提供服務包含資料的整合跟串接讓兒少的保護社工能夠在第一個時間就掌握案家整體的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1856.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1878.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
樣態那麼同時也推動這個兒少虐待案件的司法及早介入那麼及時的啟動跨平台的討論那麼同時也運用這個兒少保護的跨網絡合作機制來共同延長處遇的策略來降低風險維護這個兒少的安全那麼另外我們也完成了13 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1880.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1906.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
家的這個兒少保護區域的整合區域整合中心來提供包含從驗傷診療傷勢評估到這個心理復原等等的專業服務那麼至於面對這個脆弱家庭以及這個樣態的日益多元複雜那麼雖然我們已經建立的這個運作多年的跨體系的協作跟銜接但是呢仍然有 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1907.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1926.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
持續那麼精進的空間包含網絡合作的機制的那麼通報機制的強化了還有這個跨系統之間的銜接機制等等所以本部也秉持著這個兒童權利公約那麼最大四大精神那麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1928.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1940.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
避免歧視兒童的這個意義最大化生命生存發展以及尊重兒童意見等四大這個核心精神那麼修訂了兒少權法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1942.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1965.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那麼目前也在前日已經進行了預告那麼這個修法的草案歷經相當多場那麼以及很多的這個相關團體共同的討論那麼希望在我們預告之後能夠那麼儘速的那麼完成這個行政院的審查之後送到大院那麼透過這個兒少全法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1966.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1978.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個大幅的修訂來強化整個兒少的權益的維護跟促進那麼感謝各位委員的指教跟監督那麼也再次致謝那麼以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1979.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1992.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好 謝謝石部長的報告現在開始詢答 受以下宣告一 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報二 本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘30點半截止 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1996.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2022.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
發言登記4.委員如果書面諮詢請於商會前提出預期不受理5.暫定10點半休息10分鐘6.原則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止受案現在請登記第二委員 另一位請召回發言謝謝主席 麻煩我們的石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2027.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2035.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
副院長 副院長也謝謝能夠讓我們的兒少全法能夠進度到預告可以儘速的送到院內 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2036.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2064.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那部長這次宣判之後呢我想社會上有很多的討論我先說明我今天不是要去評論法院的判決也不是針對我們的個案事實去做判斷那這些都應該回到司法的程序裡面去做處理可是這個事件提醒了我們一個很重要的事情兒少保護案件本來就是高度複雜的一個專業工作我們面對的是處在處境最脆弱的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2065.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2075.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我還是要再三的強調國家的責任不是只有讓孩子活下來而是要讓孩子活得安全有品質而且要有尊嚴而且要有發展的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2076.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2105.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因此我今天要來請教的是制度問題也就是責任權限資訊跟支持你是否事實上是對等的因為制度越清楚孩子才越安全那標準的越明確我覺得專業判斷才能夠事實上是穩定的首先我要來談的是兒少保護跟收出養之間的衍接問題從這次的事件所呈現的整個制度樣貌來看的話兒少保護個案在進入收出養服務後會同時涉及到政府端 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2106.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2132.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
跟民間機構兩個不同的系統那政府的社福中心原本掌握的事實上是家庭脆弱性跟我們的保護的風險而收出養呢就聚焦在所謂的媒合跟我們的出養的準備那這兩套工作邏輯本質上就是不相同的可是如果中間沒有一個整合機制的話孩子的風險就可能會在這種制度的縫隙當中凱凱案發生之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2134.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2162.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我也很努力的推動修法以及參與我們的討論會議以後目前制度我知道有調整了也就是兒少保護跟收出養的業務原則上是已回到各縣市政府的社福中心來主責執行可是實務上還是存在一個關鍵的模糊點這兩項業務是否是同一組別因為過去我們不管是看培羅米達案如果同樣都是政府部門可是只要分屬不同的組那可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2163.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2191.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
中間就是還是會有漏掉的那個狀況所以不是說我今天回到政府就沒有問題沒有跨到民間單位就沒有問題是不是真的是在同一個組別甚至同一個社工負責其實我看起來沒有一個很明確的一致的那個制度設計也就是說即使同在公部門的體系我們的風險資訊是不是能夠完整的被承接跟延續還是有很多不確定性所以想問部長是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2194.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2217.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
目前兒少保護個案在進入出養的流程的時候有沒有建立一套的標準化的風險轉移的那個移轉機制包括原本兒保的風險案中的風險評估家庭背景啊照顧風險以及孩子的醫療身心狀況是不是能夠完整的且一致性的被移交或者是公安合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2218.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2246.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
部長謝謝委員的指教在回答您的這個問題之前我也想藉這個機會公開的給我們全國的社工人員打氣我想社工跟我們所有的醫事人員一樣都擔負著救死負傷那麼面臨的狀況跟條件都是多元複雜而且經常都有它的緊急性所以在過去我們也因為醫事人員的這種特殊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2247.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2263.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個工作的特殊性修訂了醫療法82條去明訂了那麼這個醫事人員在過程當中那麼如果有一些不如預期的結果那麼是以故意過失且違反了注意義務跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2265.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2282.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
專業考量財富形式跟民事的責任那我想社工特別是保護社工也好或者是我們很多的這些脆弱家庭協助的這個情況跟醫事人員其實相當的類似他們所面臨的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2284.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2307.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不確定性跟他的急迫性的經常是有的所以我們也很希望這個社界給予我們各界呢給予我們社工支持那麼對於這個法律見解上那麼我們也在明天會邀請這個邀請了很多的專家大家共同來來討論那更重要的是在我們兒少 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2309.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2328.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
現行的兒少法裡面第五條也很清楚地去明定當兒少遭受不法權益侵犯的時候國家是負協助跟保護的責任也就是說這個是國家的責任 這個完全是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2329.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2346.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因此透過每一次的不幸個案的討論跟改善來提升我們對兒少所以從這個案子發生之後這個案子最主要是脆弱家庭跟收出養這個中間有一個gap |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2349.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2379.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那過去呢 收出養呢那麼不見得是由地方政府介入它可以透過這個收出養的媒合機構所以在這個事件之後呢我們已經重新調整同時也入法未來在這個收出養的過程當中呢那麼地方政府必須扮演一定的角色那麼包含這中間如果涉及到安置的時候也要走入安置的程序當然這裡面最重要的還有一塊就是因為跨體系或跨系統或跨區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2379.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2405.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以資訊的串接是非常重要啦所以在這個事件之後呢我們也已經建立了脆弱家庭的一個資訊平台那另外社安網也去嘗試串聯34個系統那麼就是希望讓這個資訊能夠串接的不要漏接先讓資訊能夠串接的好那至於說人員上剛剛您特別提到那個是不是要固定一組 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2406.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2421.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我想這個這個我們在跟地方因為這個過去都是地方分工啦他怎麼樣分工的問題我們再來持續的來討論部長我想你剛回應我覺得也很重要所以可能給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2423.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2442.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這邊兩個建議第一個是不是針對於制度到底清不清楚這些東西甚至對於我覺得這次的事情引起我覺得社工界一直長期以來擔負這麼多社會問題來協助政府去解決的時候應該要讓他們相對應的事實上是被 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2443.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2469.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
能夠去有資源去到位的去協助他們所以我建議是不是應該接下來我覺得衛福部應該要去傾聽社工的聲音能不能召開北中南東的一個座談也好論壇也好讓大家把他們過去現在碰到的問題地方政府和中央政府甚至他們在民間碰到的一些問題可以跟你們畢竟你是中央最高的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2470.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2490.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
來做處理那後邊呢我們也希望說能夠來討論制度我覺得這才是真正解決一直以來沒有很明確的東西然後只是講說那丟進去去做然後呢做了之後當發生問題的時候你要社工去承擔我覺得這坦白講沒有一個明確的指引的時候然後看誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2491.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2520.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
比較不幸的碰到一些事情的時候要去承擔我覺得不是一件好事所以我今天為什麼會去問這個收支局長我也希望說你們不會因為回到政府部門之後這中間如果沒有連接的話還是同樣問題不好意思今天我就會花比較長的時間就是第二個問題就是你的一組折多協力在實務上的運作我一直看不懂因為世安網長期長調一組折多協力這方向是正確的可是關鍵在於這套機制是否真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2521.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2545.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
能夠到決策的程式如果你講我主責我醫療主責我就主責嗎你講我社政主責我就主責嗎你講我警政主責我就主責嗎如果我不主責的話誰會對我怎麼樣不會甚至你叫我這個社工主責那我就主責嗎那如果我不主責會怎麼樣所以我覺得這個我真的看不懂說那到底為什麼誰規定了誰主責那最後就是什麼很願意承擔的人去主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2550.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2578.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主責如果發生事情的時候他還要去承擔更多的責任義務所以我不太懂是說一直以來每次在處理這個所以我想請教部長在兒少保護跟收出養的案件當中主責單位的權限範圍目前該怎麼去界定醫療教育警政司法心理衛生跟民間團體等協力單位在什麼樣的狀況之下要實際介入這些協力單位是只提供資訊嗎還是要參與共同評估跟決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2579.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2608.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
可是最後就是認真的人好像你去做了然後最後就是你去承擔所以如果協力單位都沒有機師回應甚至沒有做一些決議執行的時候有沒有追蹤回報或者處理機制那他不回報我們也沒關係嗎反正那到底誰規定了這個主責那他就要去承擔什麼樣的責任對高風險的案件如何建立跨體系的共同決策的流程明確的規範召集機制參與對象跟後續的責任這些都有定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2609.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2623.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
有很清楚的讓誰知道我要甚至我要進一步的去緊張衛福部去年7月就已經提出來一組織多協力的分工原則可顯然最大的問題是我們到底要怎麼讓制度從原則走向實際可操作的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2624.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2646.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
跟委員說明 這有兩點第一個 主責不代表所有的責任都是他因為很多的個案需要跨域的合作所以各自要本期他的責任去完成並不是說主責的就是所有的成敗或所有的責任他一個人扛 並不是這樣第二個 因為在社安網裡頭我們的對象很廣 我的報告裡面對象很廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2653.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2670.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那麼他可能有一些是精神個案有些是脆弱家庭有些是這個保護個案那有些是要酒飲那個都有不同的所以我們所講的一組折多寫一期的概念是說他可能有不同的category |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2671.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2693.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那但是進來之後大家要一起幫忙啦對那這個大家一起幫忙大家不一起幫忙的時候怎麼辦咧有誰可以誰是主要的那個上頭的那個要我主責然後我主責我要去協力其他人的時候其他人不配合我的時候我怎麼辦我如果這個社工我怎麼辦我怎麼去做處理似乎沒有一個這樣那就是自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2694.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2710.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
持續做下去所以第三個問題就要來問的是說那這次的整個的我覺得社工的工作範圍跟責任分工是什麼如果這次現行的制度發展已經讓社工在某些情境上被納入保證人地位的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2710.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2729.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這樣的討論的話那我們就必須更清楚的回答一個問題在這樣的法律框架下社工的工作範圍跟責任分工究竟是你是如何界定的因為目前最大的困境在於社工的實務工作高度多元包含兒少保護啊最後家庭的服務啊 收出養啊居家托育啊各自的工作內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2729.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2755.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
介入的深度跟可運用權限都有很大差異可是在責任認定上這些差異是否有被清楚的反應仍然事實上是有落差的所以如果工作範圍沒有被制度化說明的話責任界限又透過個案事後的解讀來界定的話就容易出現一個問題同樣的職務在不同案件中可能被賦予不同責任標準導致第一線沒有辦法建立穩定的專業判斷所以想問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2757.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2785.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
衛福部是不是會進一步去釐清不同類型的社工業務的工作範圍權限邊界跟責任內容並建立可供實務跟司法共同參考的標準這個專業範圍確實不容易完全界定但是我們盡有可能的去發展一些指引這個其實跟醫療很像就是盡量有一些指引那麼來作為我們在專業執行上的一個參據但是也不可能完全 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2786.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2801.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是非常僵化的只有指引那這樣我們會漏失掉很多因為這專業的部分就是會按照這個個案當時候的情形要去做彈性的調整所以我們盡可能的把一些常見的樣態跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2804.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2819.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
經常性的工作這個內容把它變成一個指引的方式特別是在涉及人身安全風險的案件當中應該界定那個應注意的範圍和不同職務之間的責任分工應該有更具體的制度化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2820.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2845.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我覺得這次事情結束了還是沒有解決社工的壓迫感然後呢不確定性所以像剛剛提到以這個個案來講呢我們就有收出養的這個辦法的修訂嘛那裡面也有一些收出養的指引那另外呢這個收出養的這個必要性評估格式我們也重新檢討這些其實都是在去協助界定這個專業應該要執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2848.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2854.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
部長我還是建議真的要傾聽基層社工他們到底焦慮的是什麼這案子到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2855.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2882.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
對待帶來的衝擊是什麼我很同意因為不是說你講制度定好可是過去也是制度定好為什麼還是有這些要知道他們面對到的困境到底是什麼才能真正解決問題那最後就是20號保護跟搜出養跟安置跟寄養的有本質上都是高風險且高度不確定的專業服務在這樣的工作情境下我覺得制度是不是能夠足夠的做風險支持是必須正式的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2883.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2908.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以專業責任保險並不是免責啦更不是替任何人卸責而是在這高風險的公共服務當中國家是不是能夠建立合理的風險分擔的機制所以想問部長目前在兒少保護跟收出養服務當中是不是有專業責任保險或類似的風險分擔的那個制度當第一線能源遭遇到植物遭遇到 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2909.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2933.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
民行事程序的時候有沒有法律諮詢 訴訟協助或者是專業鑑定的一個支持體制好 跟委員說明 目前當然我們對社工我們是有團保啦不過最主要是針對一些意外在服務過程當中對人身的意外傷害這個是有一個團保 這個是由政府在支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2933.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2962.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那另外呢如果在社工司法裡面也有提到對這個法律諮詢支持的部分這個是也有那麼至於這個是屬於專業責任險那這個我們可能可不可以能夠願意就是說建立一套適用於耳哨保護跟收視場服務的專業責任保險制度並思考如何在個人機構跟政府之間建立更合理的責任的配置可以嗎我們來研究看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2963.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2968.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
包含這些從鑑定到責任的釐清等等最後我還是要再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2970.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2997.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
今天的討論核心始終是孩子制度的清楚與否會直接影響到孩子是否能夠被穩定的接觸因為我們的目標今天孩子來到這塊土地我們每一個大人都有責任讓他平安長大如果責任不清資訊斷裂 支持不足那麼風險就會在體系當中去累積而不是被解決所以我們需要的不是追究責任而是要讓制度真正有能力去承擔這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2999.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3014.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以再請部長能夠針對第一線也要希望你們能夠傾聽他的聲音去辦這樣的論壇然後我們要接住孩子我們要接住那個一直在幫我們處理社會問題的社工也要接住第一線社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3015.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3034.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
好 我們今天下午其實在部裡面有這樣的座談那有些社工團體也許沒有辦法出席的我們在後續看看再來分區考量這個再舉辦好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林月琴、趙薇的發言也謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請王育民委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3043.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3045.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3052.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3055.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
部長長我們看到這幾年這個兒少堡的案件其實呈現非常暴增的情況如果看到111年他的通報量是83,101件到114年竟然暴增了6成增加了54,000人來到 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3076.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3097.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
136,592件暴增的這麼多但是實質進入到最後的我們的保護服務的人數他其實是在下降的到最終端的這一個實質的政府保護的人數是在下降的這當中的落差請問部長為什麼有這麼嚴重的一個落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3100.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3117.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
跟各位人說明這前面的這個是通報來源是整個啦但是後面的會再去分流啦有些是催加有些是所以我要先問的是前面暴增六成到底是為什麼你們沒有去分析原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3118.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3128.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為我們最近一直在宣導鼓勵發掘這些可能的問題像守門人一樣就盡量的通報所以是宣導有成不要讓他漏接啦那這些案子都是真實發生的案件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3135.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3158.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那如果暴增六成這個是大家敏感度增加然後通報量上升那我就要問我們的服務的工作人員保護的人有沒有增加六成跟委員說明我們都會去把它做分析所以後端有些是保護個案沒錯但是有些是福利服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3158.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3180.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
像福利服務所以你整體的人員你前面報正六成你後面整體的不管是福利服務或者是後面的安置保護你所有的人員的成長有到六成嗎人員的你說這個服務人員當然是沒有吧整體是吧對整體的有增加到六成嗎我們這幾年是從一百 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3183.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3197.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
103到113大概增加了大概是五成啦從13000名社工到19000名社工啦然後去年也有再增加大概4000名左右好 這個就是我要告訴你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3197.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3216.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
按量暴增但是我們的人員其實並沒有等同比例的增加另外一個更糟糕的情況是這個整個離職率啊他還是維持在一個這張圖表你看一下你的禁用率你的社安網其實禁用率 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3217.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3245.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
八成其實平均有的縣是根本不到八成然後離職率呢還是維持在13.9也就是說你的人力根本跟不上你現在案件增加的速度這個是為什麼第一線的社工他們現在壓力暴增壓力倍增那有些人他其實很願意在這個領域奉獻昨天這個社工他們的抗議裡面有一個資深的社工他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3246.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3264.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
帶著錯氣的聲音在講他的心路歷程我不知道部長今天看到這個新聞嗎看了讓人家覺得很心酸他很熱愛這份工作他也願意工作但是他們現在普遍感到惶恐的是就是如果做不好的話他其實是被判刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3265.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3282.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他會被上銬的就是說他從一個社工的助人者他可能會變成是整個最後要背鍋的那一個人所以為什麼有萬名的社工連署昨天有1600名社工走到行政院發出怒吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3283.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3311.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
因為他覺得他就承擔了所有的社會安全網好或不好孩子的生命有沒有保障他要站上那個保證人的位置對他們來講何其沉重非常非常的沉重啊所以這樣的一個怒吼不是沒有原因案量這麼大然後要背負的責任這麼多不是他認真做就好他還要擔心他認真做的過程這個家庭不能有任何的散失跟風險啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3312.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3340.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
只要是他接觸過的會不會說這是你接觸過的你要負這個保證人的責任在這樣的情況底下他能安心工作嗎我覺得昨天這些社工他們上街他要的是一個安心的環境是一個無害的環境是一個不要被無止境被救責的這樣一個環境但是我們國家有提供給他嗎以他們昨天的憤怒跟怒吼他覺得國家沒有保護他 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3341.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3362.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那這個就是整個政府要去思考的問題啊所以在昨天他們談的部分你看到這些離子率事實上他們昨天的訴求我認為是政府應該要去正視的就是特別是像兒保的社工他們風險更大我想在座各位這個彩虹市長大家都知道兒保社工的這個異動 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3363.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3385.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
現在是很怕補不到人因為那個扛的壓力因為這些家庭它就是高風險的家庭你真的很難保你去仿視了這個家庭之後下一秒鐘接下來的一天孩子可能突然家長的憤怒或什麼或一時想不開把孩子帶去哪裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3386.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3407.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那如果是現在司法體系對於社工的職業的不了解他動輒用這麼重的把他放到一個保證人的位置的話我覺得這一波你會讓很多就是有心想要從事社工的人他可能會卻步或者是灰心那這個對我們整體的社會安全網跟保護體系其實是一個傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3408.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3425.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我不知道你們有沒有警覺到這件事情這件事情沒有好好的處理你沒有辦法給社工一個安心的話我覺得對他們來講就是他雖然很想投入助人工作但是助人工作如果付出的代價如此之沉重我覺得有些人真的是會打退場鍋所以我覺得我們應該要來解決這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3429.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3447.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
昨天這個他們在訴求裡面我們來看接下來這一張就是國家重建一個合理的制度是他們一個很重要的訴求就是怎麼樣去盤點還有界定保證人地位不會讓社工去踩雷 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3448.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3467.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這件事情是他們昨天一個非常明確的訴求因為像兒保社工我覺得他會遇到翠家的社工也很容易遇到啊因為他們的家庭結構本身就非常的不穩定嘛那你今天這個如果是司法單位他們可以是這樣子就說欸你是保證人所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3468.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3495.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
就是你要負最終責任那這件事情我們應該是要好好的討論不要讓社工就是這樣子惶惶不安那部長你打算怎麼做昨天這個訴求其實非常的清楚你打算怎麼做這四點我們都很認同應該要來處理所以第一個法律責任的釐清我們明天已經在部裡面邀集相關的明天嗎對 明天下午那有要司法單位嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3496.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3513.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
有一起大家都幾個重要的那個背景不同的背景法律司法還有社工專家一起來那麼就這個法律見解的部分你們要結成員大概有多少人我們是不是詳細的再提供給您參考我希望這個規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3517.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3532.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
範圍其實是要多的另外就是在比例上面是要恰當的而且這一些相關的就是職業工會社工的職業工會就是他們是第一線的還有社工專協團體的話是今天下午我們會先討論聽聽他們的意見他們的訴求然後明天才是這個法律專門針對法律的討論那那個法務部有派代表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3545 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3550.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
有邀法務部嗎有邀請因為法務部很關鍵啦 檢察官就是其實邀請法務部嗎有邀請嗎 來 法務部請對 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3557.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3578.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
要出席法務部我主張就是要出席因為司法體系這邊還有司法院法務部跟司法院都應該要出席我們來確認一下那個出席對今天有出席的法務部就是請你們要派員出席因為這件事情我覺得每一個社工他現在心裡的惶恐就是下一個會不會是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3579.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3592.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
下一個會不會是我所以才會那麼多人站出來那我覺得這件事情真的是政府的責任我覺得就是要讓社工非常的安心一個助人工作者還要每天提心吊膽 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3594.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3608.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
真的我覺得這個我們對不起這一些基層的社工安心的職業環境這個是我們一定要去做我的看法跟您是完全一樣的那個KPI我們把它廢掉了已經廢掉了嗎已經廢掉不再用再通報率什麼時候廢掉在社安網2.0的計畫我們就把這個KPI拿掉有拿掉了這個也是被詬病的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3617.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3635.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
因為這些家庭的問題就是它是會反覆出現的然後你們之前是用再通報率然後來作為是你做得好不好的一個指標結果造成實務上有些人就把案子hold在手上他不敢再開新案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3636.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3656.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這樣子我的KPI可能會好看一點這個都是本末倒置的做法第三個 合理的按量這個是我覺得你們應該要認真去思考的一個好的工作環境 合理的按量你才可以讓這些保護性的社工久任要不然風險又高 按量又大 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3657.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3686.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
然後又有司法的風險這個雙重多重的壓力底下這個是留不住人的最後強化網絡的合作這一次我們也看到就是司法體系對於社工的職業環境有沒有那麼的理解這是這一次很多社工他們提出來的他覺得是不夠理解所以你明天這個會議是一個好的開始但是我覺得你要建立一個是讓司法人員對於整個社工的職業環境跟體系跟他的職長有一個清晰的脈絡跟了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3687.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3715.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
如果沒有這樣的了解他可能會誤判或他以為的正義可能跟實際上的情況他可能是兩件事情他不夠理解做出的判斷所以這個強化網絡合作我希望你們也可以做因為我也很清楚過去也是在醫療上也有類似的情形所以辦了很多的依法論壇讓這個醫界跟法界這邊能夠有對話的機會那我想這個社工的工作性質其實跟醫事人員很類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3716.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3742.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
也是助人的所以未來我們也來強化這個對話好那我希望這四點你們都要做我們要還給社工一個安心的職業環境最後一個我要問的是有關於兒少全法的修法昨天是這個今天教育部有代表來對不對我們請那個副署長一起上來昨天是那個全教總他們發了一個新聞稿他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3743.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3763.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
也一樣感到焦慮喔那他們的焦慮是對於兒少全法72條的修正他們覺得有些地方是模糊的會造成跟他的管教權在學校管教權產生一些的衝突那這個部分我不知道之前在修法的時候那個教育部有沒有參與72條修法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3765.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3773.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有沒有邀請教育部出席你們沒有表達你們沒有去蒐集基層教師的意見然後去反映相關的意見跟看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3775.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3799.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
在比較早一個階段的時候其實我們有被邀請但是後來的這一個版本的後半階段我們好像比較沒有參與不過因為現在是公告他有一個月的期間那教育部這邊會收集地方政府還有我們相關教師團體這樣團體的意見我們會跟就是收集意見然後我們也會提供給衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3801.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3815.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
因為其實教育部你們有關於教師的管教權你在教師法的32條教育基本法第8條第15條你還有一個輔導管教辦法事實上你本身就有制定一套針對學生的管教辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3816.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3839.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那你們現在應該要去釐清啊就是說對於學校老師在教學現場他是要優先去適用你這一個管教辦法還是說兒少全法他是更上位他這邊會去凌駕到你的這一個學校的相關辦法他們現在到底應該適用哪一個因為你在你的學校的輔導管教辦法相對是比較明確而且比較細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3841.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3864.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那現在為什麼這個全教總他們覺得這個新修訂的兒校全法讓他們會無所適從就是文字有一些模糊的空間那這個要怎麼處理我們會收集意見因為4月21號公告我們昨天大概署內相關的主事還有我們也會發文給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3865.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3893.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
昨天剛好有一個跟地方政府的會議我們也都把這個訊息給地方政府請他們就是要特別關注這些的議題那我們會會長收集之後我們再跟衛福部一起討論好我們兒少權法去給這個兒少就是更好的權益保障這個是支持的但是大家要注意在修法的過程當中譬如說像教師的部分跟他的管教權如果有所漢格或者是有衝突的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3894.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3898.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那我覺得這是主管機關的責任一樣你要給教師一個安心的這個教育現場管教的環境啊而不是讓他覺得我如果萬一我們在兒童全盤有一些太模糊的他會擔心也是動輒得救的問題因為這當當中有提到就是比較細微的像偏心忽視他就很擔心一個老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3915.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3937.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
班上這個幾十個學生偏心如果也要算的話那個感受那個太模糊了所以我希望這個部分你們也要尊重就是在教育現場這些老師的意見然後做出一個合理的這個修法的調整好不好好我們會跟衛福部一起討論好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3946.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3949.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員有請石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3954.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3979.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
陳委員長部長剛有兩個委員已經關心了因為大家昨天看到社工上街頭的新聞其實都很難過啊他們拿著牌子說我們接住受害者那誰來接住我們現在法院的判決是把他們當作所有小孩的保證人但剛有講啊人力不足抄案抄量在接案這邊要請部長表示您的意見您覺得他們是每一個小朋友的保證人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3982.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4008.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這個我要藉這個機會也提到我們一定做所有社工的後盾這個是我們主管機關的態度那當然在法律的見解上那麼法院有這樣的見解所以我們才會在明天下午召開邀請法界可能法界有不同的這個見解啦並不是這個定於一尊所以我們明天就邀請了各方 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4009.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4030.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
大家現在也蠻想聽一下您初步的看法因為他們這樣子遇到這樣子的事件熱情被燃燒殆盡有很多人是萌生要離職的這樣子想法我們也不希望這個社會的缺口越來越大所以我們想知道說法院說保姆因為容易情緒化他這樣子說對保姆合理嗎您覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4032.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4051.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
您說的是他說保姆容易情緒化所以他認為社工本來就應該要多加監督您覺得他這樣子講對保姆還有對社工合理嗎您認同嗎我是建議我們比較不去做這個個案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4052.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4073.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這批評啊那必須是整個這個從這個法律架構上然後他的這個責任釐清上面我們來切入所以我們才會有今天下午先跟社工座談聽聽他們第一線的聲音然後明天呢才邀請法界那麼跟也有一些學者大家來對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4074.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4098.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這些社工的要求真的不多他的意思是說他希望主管機關也就是您衛福部可以清楚的定義他們的工作範圍他們只想知道他們的工作範圍是在什麼程度以內嘛那這個東西不是只給我看啊你也是要給全國的社工看給全國的保姆看你覺得你多久以內可以定出這個工作的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4100.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4116.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
多久以内可以给我报告工作的范围这个我们一直有一些工作的办法或者是指引其实一直都有像邹初仰也有一定的这个办法跟指引在这里所以到底什么叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4117.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4145.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
就像我們醫療您也是醫師是最清楚的過去因為這個醫療糾紛的時候困擾我們非常非常久所以最後才有去修訂這個醫療法82條那沒關係我想知道說你下午座談明天跟法界那你多久以內會有一個初步的文書文件讓他們可以知道說他們的工作範圍程度在哪裡嗎其實他們的要求昨天這樣訴求是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4147.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4161.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們今天下午會再更清楚的了解他們的訴求主要著眼在哪裡那麼會再透過明天的這個法律諮詢那麼來把它釐清看看未來到底我們應該要做什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4163.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4175.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
規範也好或解釋也好還是要修法也好那麼才能夠確保這些社工在執行他的業務的時候可以沒有後顧之憂那我再跟您索取這個你們的會議紀錄你們討論哪些項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4179.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4202.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個呢因為最近網路上很多人在講說馬鈴薯只要把發芽的地方切掉就可以吃甚至也有人說如果發芽吃起來非常的苦所以你絕對不會再繼續吃所以就很多家長很緊張嘛因為馬鈴薯是一個學校營養午餐很常用到的東西啊然後小朋友也很喜歡吃薯條那我就上網去查說 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4203.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4224.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你看有沒有一些文章可以知道我們比如說這篇就在講說馬鈴薯發芽有毒聽說只要切掉其他部位還是可以吃是真的嗎那這篇文章就寫說不行因為呢高溫加熱也無法去除毒性你覺得這篇有沒有公信力寫的是不是對的這些衛教知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4226.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4243.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
應該是這麼說 這有幾塊啦第一個這個茄鹼就是所謂的馬鈴薯的龍葵鹼它是對熱穩定這個毒素是對熱穩定沒有錯那第二個呢到底是不是用牙來判斷這個龍葵鹼的含量多寡 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4243.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4254.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那這個是沒有絕對的關聯性所以我們才會在邊境的部分我們就會去做抽驗只要龍奎鹼超過200BPM你只要告訴我發芽的是不是不可以吃就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4260.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4275.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
因為這篇文章只是在討論這個發芽的可不可以吃對可不可以吃你只要告訴我這個如果現在這個按照這個我們農業部在邊境的檢驗是5個mm它的條件是5個mm這個芽這5個mm那就我們的條件是檢驗就是龍葵檢如果驗出200ppm |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4285.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4300.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個就不可以所以整批就會被退運所以你的意思是說農業署以發芽你是以PPM標準的話是要用檢驗來看那我直接告訴你當然要跟委員說明的是說在他這個馬鈴薯發芽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4304.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4321.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
它的表面隨著龍奎鹼它裡面在發芽的過程會釋出龍奎鹼當它的龍奎鹼的濃度越高的時候那它表面上的顏色也會變化好 我先跟你說這篇文章是你們自己寫的衛生福利部食品藥物管理署2016年發布的 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4324.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4348.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
為了讓全國的關心小朋友的家長可以follow所以當時你們寫了一篇衛教文2016年跟大家講說不行喔不能吃發芽的馬鈴薯是不可以吃的網路上有人說挖掉就可以吃不對所以你們最後是建議大家不要買太多以免它發芽然後要攝取新鮮的最後一句是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4349.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4375.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
馬鈴薯一旦發芽就不該食用即使切除芽眼或加熱仍然會有茄鹼那你現在是要怎樣你現在是要下架你的文章沒有沒有沒有沒有衝突啦我剛剛提到的是說從科學上來講我們不會用芽眼跟龍葵鹼的濃度去直接做對應這個不會但是對民眾的衛教來講你無法去區分嘛所以你對民眾的衛教就是說簡單的說那當然就是說你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4380.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4406.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這個不會因為只是一個牙眼切除龍盔茧就沒有不會這個是對的所以就不要吃嘛對不對我們現在就是要我們現在以正式聽因為很多人在網路上寫說切掉可以吃好這邊呢剛你有講到農業化就說不合格就整顆棄置那這邊我們也想問啊因為你早上好像有回答記者說你們現在抽菸就是2%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4407.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4432.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
2到10%抽驗就是2到10%那你如果驗到一顆你會怎麼做整批退運或銷毀整批整箱還是整批因為他比如說這一批是這個貨櫃抽出來有那這個貨櫃就是整個退運或銷毀那因為卓院長昨天有說他要一顆一顆逐顆逐顆看你可以幫他解釋一下他這個要怎麼進行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4433.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4460.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們的抽菸不會一顆一顆驗沒有在一顆一顆驗都是我們抽菸的方式所以卓院長他可能理解錯誤理解錯誤你們的抽菸方式他應該不是指我們的抽菸因為我們抽菸從來不會是一顆一顆驗他應該指的是農業部因為這個外觀的檢視包含有沒有腐敗有沒有發芽那個是用外觀檢視然後有沒有發霉對所以他剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4462.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4476.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
不是他對不起農業部說的不合格的就整科氣質他說錯了你講的是整批對吧不是你剛講的不一樣我們是抽驗檢驗超過那個龍葵檢超過200ppm我們是整批 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4479.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4508.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那但是那個有發芽的它是單顆嘛不會一顆發芽其他也一定都發芽因為它在噴灑那個易芽劑的時候有時候會不均勻嘛所以它是對那個發芽的那一顆丟棄以前嘛以前我們是整個看到發芽就不要了因為我們會覺得它生長在同樣的一個環境所以這一顆有其他顆可能也有然後我們2018年其實都是蠻嚴格的今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4509.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4511.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
不知道為什麼ART談判完變成這樣子這個是你們跟農業部一起發布的喔你們在講說不合格及氣質如果有發芽腐爛發霉該顆馬鈴薯必須嚴禁進入加工產線所以你現在先記得喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4528.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4532.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
他不能進入加工產線絕對不會進入加工產線ok好那我們來看一下我們來看一下這邊我去翻了一下2025年這個台美就是美國對外貿易屏障的這個報告他裡面就寫到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4544.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4562.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
他說抱怨說台灣對發芽有限制導致常常整批貨被退美國當時就在這個報告裡面寫說發芽不會構成食安的風險正在跟台灣雙邊協商解決這跟你的衛教文章不太一樣那2026年呢2月他就發表了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4563.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4578.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他寫得很清楚你看他的最後一段他說如果馬鈴薯有發芽腐爛發霉入境但是入境以後在加工設施內完成分檢還有處置所以他最後寫一個at a processing facility |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4582.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4600.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
但是我剛剛給你看的你們的海報寫的是絕對不會進入加工產線我比較了美國跟我們自己發布會覺得很荒唐一個說不會進入加工產線一個是美國說我們跟台灣講好了他們會去一個processing facility |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4601.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4607.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
大家看會覺得很奇怪啊我們平常去機場大費周章還要拿一個紅卡還要拿綠卡還要被檢查背包看到背包裡面有在機場的邊境就直接把你丟掉了然後現在是發現有發芽這些還要被送去一個加工廠在裡面所以他就入境了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4622.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4646.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
跟委員說明我們所有的這個檢驗的比例還有檢驗的標準還有後面的處置退運整批的這種做法其實都是沒有變差別的只是在於說如果是外觀上面那麼出現有這個發芽的情形的時候那麼是拉到一個指定的區域不是直接進加工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4647.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4661.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
是拉到指定的區域去魚蟻剔除掉把那一顆丟掉那麼在其他的國家也是這樣做不會整批啦這個日本也是這樣做因為我們依賴的是科學的檢驗標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4662.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4687.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那麼不能夠用一顆代表全部你說你們沒有變然後現在又在解釋你各種的差別你又在解釋你各種的差別我現在已經很明確的把2025年2026年都拿給你看了美國都已經說你有差了你還說你自己沒有差而且它這邊就寫Processing Facility你硬要說它是一個指定的地方它就是加工廠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4689.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4717.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我跟委員描述的是目前農業部的做法當然詳細的因為今天農業部沒有來這個是農業部我們處理的只是檢驗抽驗我們是抽驗那麼外觀的檢視這個叫外觀的檢視這個是農業部在做的檢疫包含有沒有病蟲害這個他們要看的當然他們今天沒有來但是據他們跟我的描述他是會到一個指定的地方去做剔除不是直接進入到加工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4719.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4742.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我給你看你自己寫的東西我們2月簽了ART1月的時候才發現說農業部改了兩份文件農業部這邊改了美國加工用馬鈴薯輸入檢疫條件你仔細看運抵加工廠後高批加工用馬鈴薯經過選別附帶之牙體長度超過5毫米或腐爛發霉 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4747.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4769.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
超過標準予以區隔且不得進行加工予以棄置你剛剛一直說去指定的環境農業部的文件1月21號就已經發表說這些在入境的時候發現有發芽他是把他們運到加工廠他寫這麼清楚你還要跟我說指定的地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4772.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4792.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個我想因為今天農業部也沒有來那這個不需要經過我們這個會嫌的所以如果詳細的部分委員可以再請教農業部因為是食安嘛所以這邊還是要請教您嘛因為這個是您跟農業部共同發表的我們的檢驗所有的程序標準跟處置的方式不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4795.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4821.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那我問你我問你進入加工廠好他處理難道他有發芽或是有驗出超過標準的不會跟正常一般馬鈴薯會有污染嗎這不是大家最擔心的嗎不會嗎我跟委員說明啦這個當然是農業部的這個process啦那但是據我的瞭解啦他只是暫於他不是直接進到加工他是暫於讓他出關 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4822.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4833.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
然後到一個地方去剔除然後我們就會加驗所以他就入境啊但是如果加驗有問題的話呢我們就我們會驗他的龍盔檢嘛一有問題也是整批退啦那我問你最後一個問題啦這邊有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4837.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4858.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
ART寫得很硬喔他說之後如果有任何想要修改這個檢疫的標準必須要雙方都合意共同同意之下那你怎麼 你怎麼改因為你以前遇到混裝肉的問題你就說我要開始逐批查驗那你以後怎麼改你以後遇到食安的問題他都已經寫這麼硬了你要怎麼調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4859.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4888.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所有的這個檢疫的方式都是大家互相在兩邊溝通的而且都是基於科學證據跟國際標準來做所以我們一向過去的做法也都是如此所以你的意思是說你的意思是說未來如果你遇到像之前您在查混裝肉的這個事件的時候你開始改成主批查驗你之後也會跟美國溝通說我們可不可以得到一個雙方的共識我可能也要開始查你會這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4888.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4908.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們當然有如何檢疫的決定權但是這些決定權呢也必須跟世界的標準國際要去接軌不然人家也這樣對我們的話那我們的農產品就無法出就是每個國家都希望在共同的國際標準下這個才是國際貿易的本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4910.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4926.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
因為之前是您的前一位部長他在有一次跟談判辦公室的人一起來當時我們衛黃委員會很關心肉品啊等等他說他是沒有參與到這個談判所以但是行政是一體的我想知道你是什麼時候才知道馬鈴薯會進來的發芽馬鈴薯會進來馬鈴薯的那個規範是在今年二月發布的對那談判的過程你有參與嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4936.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4955.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
談判的過程我們主要是食藥署參與但是我都會他們都會跟我報告那你什麼時候就知道了因為美國的文件是寫2025年就開始談了就是說我當部長才知道因為我之前是健保署署長我不會去接觸到食品安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4956.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4969.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好我們希望未來的發展不管如何因為每天都有不同的答詢出來的答案都不太一樣那你還是之後可以信守你的承諾之後如果你需要主批查驗的時候你就大膽的說你要主批查驗我們檢驗我們過去都有一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4972.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4997.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是2到10%的抽驗有問題的時候提高到20到50%的抽驗再有問題的時候就逐批我們的過去都是這樣然後你要從逐批要降級我們有一定的標準所以這些標準都是分開的因為他已經說他已經把這些標準要更改的時候明訂進來以前是沒有這一段英文的以前沒有這一段英文所以我們現在才要在這邊跟你釐清嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4999.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5020.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那檢驗的程序剛剛跟委員一直在強調我們在檢驗的程序抽驗的標準那麼以及後面的處置有問題的時候的處置都沒有改變沒關係等一下還有其他委員會問你謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陳金威委員發言接下來請邱惠如委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5029.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5036.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
主席各位委員還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那我們有請石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5038.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5064.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好 部長部長好就委員好是 我今天想跟你交流呢心理健康支持方案的成效還有適用的年齡層好那我想呢我們大家應該都略有掌握其實自殺呢是我們國人的十大死因之一那特別我關心的是青少年已經跳出十大了已經跳出十大了那當然這個但是他應該還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5065.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5092.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那部長有掌握現在是第幾嗎11 12啦11 12就在邊緣嘛所以一稍微有疏忽可能又會再跌回十大的範圍之內還是要很努力是是那我關心的是這個青少年自殺的問題那青少年我們可以看到這張圖青少年是紅色的他的年齡區間大概就是紅色這個曲線來表示那他似乎有逐年提升的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5093.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5115.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們當然知道衛福部對於自殺的防治對於國人心理健康的提升在過去幾年又做了一個努力那在112年的時候有提供一個叫年輕族群的心理健康支持方案那適用的年齡層是15到30歲那也許應該是效果不錯吧所以年齡有再往上拓展到45歲嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5117.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5126.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那現在我想要請教部長就是說那這兩個方案目前執行的情形如何那對於自殺的房子你們是不是有掌握到成效的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5129.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5154.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個不直接只是針對這個自殺因為現在這個特別是在年輕族群也有一些情緒困擾那需要有一些因為過去這個難免這個就醫會覺得有標籤化的問題所以我們才會導入這個一開始是15到30歲一年三次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5154.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5180.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個免費的諮商因為推出之後反應很不錯啦因為從這中間也會有一些轉介發現到一些個案他就會轉介到真正需要的醫療服務或者是說他還是回到這個學校的輔導系統等等這些會有一些資源的連結因為就會有反應到說那其實往後年輕世代那麼工作壓力家庭這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5183.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5198.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
原因也都是在這個年齡群工作跟經濟家庭所以才會往後那麼延後到45歲大概是這樣那以自殺率來看的話那麼以去年我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5199.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5220.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
其實在這個Covid之後這個委員您也都是這方面的專業很清楚Covid之後整個那個Mental Health的問題受到很大的衝擊所以各國那個自殺率都有一些往上不過我們看起來也是差不多跟國際的趨勢一樣稍微有往上不過去年我們又把它下降了 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5220.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5238.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
特別關心的是就是青少年因為青少年他們就是有早熟的趨勢然後也有一些情感的困擾那現在網路資訊也很爆炸那可能也會有一些詐騙被詐騙然後霸凌等等的一個現象所以我想這些的社會因素有可能都會衝擊到他們的心理健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5239.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5260.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以我覺得提供給他們一些心理諮詢我覺得是一個很可行的方向那衛福部現在也在努力那現在有個問題就是說我們來看一下心理師法嘛心理師法有提到說心理師如果在執行業務的時候要取得當事人或法代的同意那我解讀這一條我自己從法律的角度來解讀我是覺得說因為這邊提到說當事人或法代嘛那我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5260.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5278.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
解讀上我會區分為兩個族群一個族群就成年人成年人當然就當事人同意那如果是未成年當然就是法代同意但是這裡就所以部長應該認同這個法律上的解讀嘛那所以這裡現在有一個問題就是說你如果青少年他要使用這些諮詢的時候他前提要法代同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5278.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5300.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那因為他遭遇這些問題他有時候不敢告訴家人那不敢告訴家人如何取得法帶的同意這第一件事然後再來就是說好不容易告訴家人那部長您剛剛有提到嘛就是汙名化的問題家長他也許會覺得說我的小孩去接受行李諮商那不想讓他們去那沒有法帶同意之下小孩子即使想去也去不了那所幸這裡有一個我們還蠻 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5301.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5328.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
高興看到的一個解套方式就是在校園內有學生輔導法學生輔導法就心理師在校園內如果諮詢這些心理諮商的時候在符合三個要件的情況之下就可以把心理衛生心理師法第19條的法帶同意的限制做一個解套那要建議就是學生本人同意要建議就是學校有一個個案的會議來做評估如果學生有需求第三個就是考量到這個學生的最佳利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5328.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5345.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那現在問題就是說當然就可以不需要法代的同意但問題就是說因為這個是學生輔導法它發生在校園內有就學的學生那如果今天是在校園外沒有就學的好像就要回歸到心理司法第19條還是要法代的同意那我們現在就覺得說那這個對於為就學的 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5348.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5366.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
15到18歲的這個未成年人他們常常是有來自於今天我們的主題嘛脆弱家庭然後沒有辦法繼續就學中輟生可能他們就沒有在適用學生輔導法而還是要受到心理司法第19條的限制那不知道校部長您怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5368.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5381.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對 這個其實委員點出了一個其實跟我們兒少權法也很有相關聯性就是在CRC裡面特別有提到尊重這個兒少的意見那這裡面就有這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5382.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5396.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
知情權被知情權跟選擇權的問題那在過去我們在醫療的過程你也很清楚都是對未成年來講都是需要有這個監護人或法定代理人他的這個同意才能夠執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5398.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5416.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是如何在什麼情況之下比如說需要衡量到這個兒少本身的心智成熟在什麼樣的情形之下那麼可以不需要跳出這個法定代理或監護人的同意權的這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5417.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5445.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那麼我覺得可以討論至於做剛剛提到我們的心理諮商的部分我們的新建師有在研議如何去讓剛剛說的15歲到45歲國家所推出的心理諮商的服務讓有需要的人像剛剛您提到的學生輔導法一樣有一個可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5447.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5460.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
免除的這個那我想請教一件事因為你們的方案推展的不錯嘛那我們也希望加惠更多人嘛那現在到底這些15到18歲的未成年人他們使用這個方案到底需不需要法代同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5463.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5490.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為部長有掌握嗎因為我們剛剛是解讀操作法律操作了半天那現在就是實務上你有掌握使用這個方案有需要有法帶限制這個我要確切了解一下確切了解一下到底是不是都要那麼因為過去是如果是看這個精神醫師的話是一定要就是精神門診的話是一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5494.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5521.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
諮商的部分比較沒有那麼那麼serious那麼嚴可是這個這個心理師法看起來就心理師諮詢諮商看起來就是我們剛剛操作半天嘛好那我現在跟部長講因為我也對這個問題非常關心所以我有特別上網去查了你們這個心理方案然後還有蠻詳細的QA那QA呢其中有一題就是15歲以上未成年人如果要使用本方案是否需要家長的同意書因為我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5522.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5548.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那個正義點是在這邊嘛那你們的回答有兩個方向原則上建議高知法帶那建議聽起來就是不以法帶的同意為必要那第二個要件呢當然就援引到心理司法那心理司法當然我們操作半天覺得未成年人應該要得到法帶的同意才能夠接受心理諮商可是這裡又提到說並不以取得法帶的同意為唯一的要件那看起來你們這個方案是比較放寬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5549.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5571.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
相較於心理司法是比較放寬部長您剛剛不是說要了解一下嗎那這裡答案其實就已經出現了好那我想要點出一個問題說當然放寬我沒有反對而且甚至是支持的因為青少年他們不敢告訴家人所以他會變成說他沒有資源那沒有資源會不會讓心理的憂鬱程度又更加雪上加霜所以及時的介入很重要但是現在重點來了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5573.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5593.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
實務上就是在使用這個方案實際操作的這些心理師他們有他們的認知也是要有法代的同意這些青少年才能夠使用這個資源可是你們的QA其實其實是放寬了那所以部長這個問題是教育宣導不夠嗎因為看起來QA其實是放寬了可是第一線操作心理師並沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5594.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5609.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那是教育宣導不夠嗎那如果是你們有放寬教育宣導不夠導致那些心理師他們覺得還是要有法代統一才能夠提供服務反而去阻缺了青少年使用你們這個利益良善的方案所以這邊部長是不是可以給我們示意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5610.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5628.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
好這個我們再強化去宣導啦那當然這個您對這個法律很精確啦所以當然在心理師法還有這些文字存在所以這中間在推動這個方案上我會找這個新建師來討論一下如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5631.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5649.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
也要保障這個心理師的權益然後讓這個需要者這些青少年也能夠容易取得這樣的服務所以部長我這邊就是有兩個問題想要請你來做一些協助就是說因為我們剛剛有提到說你們的Q&A看起來是放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5650.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5679.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
並不以法帶的同意為必要可是實務上有一些心理師確認為要那有沒有可能提供給我們一些資料就是到底現在目前目前實務的操作上到底是有多少比例是有經過法帶然後有多少比例是沒有經過法帶那也許我們掌握這個資訊可以進步來思考如何來協助這個資源的廣大普及到青少年那第二個問題就是說我想這個方案我們真的非常的支持那 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5679.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5703.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
因為你的年齡層往上提升到30歲提升到45歲那有沒有可能往下扎根我們再往下扎根加會到這個12歲到15歲的族群因為就如同我剛剛說的現在真的很早熟然後情感因素有些其實國中就有一些情感因素了那可不可以擴大地適用到這12歲的族群部長是不是有這個可能性我們來研究看看研究看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5704.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5728.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
不知道是不是可以一個月內給我們這些可行性的評估報告好那這個謝謝部長那我們就一起來為青少年的心理健康來一起努力謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們的邱惠如委員那待會在楊耀委員宣達那個宣達完畢後我們就休息十分鐘接下來我們請邱政軍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5735.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5738.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
主席好 我們請石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5741.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5764.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好 邱委員好部長好部長 我們談判代表鄭麗君2月12日跟美國簽下這個ART一直以來我們一再要求不可以拿我們的食安來當作交換的籌碼但是現在看起來經貿辦談回來的內容跟當初行政院開記者會喝奶茶的那個傳達給大家的那種感覺差很多就拿馬鈴薯來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5766.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5791.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
2026年1月21號農業部發布預告準備要放寬美國馬鈴薯那2026年的2月6日正式公告修正農售防治地1151881353號那在2月12號在簽訂ART之前農業部拿馬鈴薯去試好那我們衛福部最先拿什麼是拿農藥來跟他們談嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5793.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5813.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
跟委員說明剛剛我一再的提到對馬鈴薯的檢驗程序標準都沒有改變啦我們沒有改變我們一樣是這個需要抽驗2到10%以前是有發現發芽就整批退回啦那現在是農業部這邊講是有發現這個發芽是拿來丟掉丟掉然後再送然後你們再抽驗嘛對你們是抽驗的2到10%嘛對沒錯嘛那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5823.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5848.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這個部分越南講的那個逐科來檢查那是不可能的事情嘛所以我們檢驗不會用逐科檢驗因為這一批如果驗到有人力就整批就退了如果要用整顆來這個每一顆來檢查的話你一年要花上億元的幾千萬到上億元的這個人工成本費跟我們說明我們這一批只要驗到一顆超標 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5849.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5866.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那這一批就會整個把它銷毀或退運所以不需要一顆一顆驗你們比這個農業部更早金茂幫你去談答應美國兩年內要大規模放寬農藥標準MTE說報告說你們答應如果台灣沒訂定農業產業標準就採納美國標準或CODES的國際標準那114年3月11號公告32種100項徵休 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5878.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5902.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
真修訂這個阿納寧等這個32種農藥於100項農作物之殘留容許量皆歸美方出國的這個要求你們就做了修改那114年11月26號公告15種78項包含梨果這個柑橘玉米及米類同步修正動物農藥產品的標準那115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5906.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5929.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
1月9號草案預告38種174項涉及茶、咖啡、堅果、羽衣、感染等預計在2026年第二季生效那總共約含85種352項持續向美國及國際標準來接軌所以衛福部早在川普放話之前就知道一定會拿實案來交換嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5931.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5958.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
應該不是這麼說就是說在國際貿易上大家都是採相同的標準以前都沒有做這個標準所以過去我們就會產生很多跟人家的爭議我們蔡英文總統的時候就沒有發生這個問題為什麼我們現在要做這個事情應該是我們一直逐步逐步只是說有時候我們的速度不夠快你修的這些80%都是進口商外商的申請不是增加項目就是增加這個劑量美國還要你們開放多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5959.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5981.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們的標準上就是盡量來跟國際除了有特別的考量不然的話就跟國際標準一樣你3月5號簽完約不到一個月賴總統就宣布說要停侃要價三年那3月31號美國發布MTE報告的時候稱讚台灣在要價透明度上有正面的發展這證明了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5983.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6003.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
暫停藥價調查三年表面上是為了韌性事實上還是在為這個按照美國的意思來做這兩個是沒有關係那為什麼怎麼那麼剛好呢應該砍的是這樣這個藥價呢其實我們很多這個砍到的也是我們自己國產或者是學名藥這個藥價在調整上主要是因為這幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6008.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6024.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個國際的那個原物料上漲的厲害那我們的要價調查呢都是前一年根據要價調查的結果來調整所以經常會發生說後面發生這個成本上漲的時候你看啊美國要我們開放牛脂跟牛血的進口農業部也開放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6025.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6052.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
ART協定裡面台灣承諾不採取任何與WOAH指引不一致的措施因此將移除某些美牛的產品禁令也會移除繁重的邊境檢查程序現在我們又從邊境來開門MTE報告上面說台灣答應開放牛角肉新甘盛每個來季的容許值是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6055.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6058.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們目前是豬肝是0.04ppm牛如果是Codex的標準的話牛肝牛腎一個是0.04ppm一個是0.09ppm |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6076.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6089.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為我發現啦 我們發現就是說台灣承諾所有的這樣漏類的產品的萊克多巴胺也好或者是這個對齊我們CODES的這個標準你們所謂的科技標準 國際標準就是拿我們人民的身體來做試藥嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6091.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6111.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
不會啦 這個一定都是按照國際然後也經過我們國內的健康風險評估你看啊 邊境也配合禁止竹箱檢查終止對美牛內臟蛇 鯨 睾丸等的竹箱檢查與解凍檢查以後美國牛肉進來 臺灣的海關只能看大包裝不能細查 是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6112.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6134.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
不是 因為我們過去已經查過非常的量很大都沒有超出這個標準所以按照我們過去的標準的做法是應該調降風險等級也就是調降它的抽驗很多微生物跟農藥殘留在肉品解凍後才能準確的取樣化驗你現在它沒有解凍你要怎麼化驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6135.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6162.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
呃 您說的是 那個美國你會進來啊它只能看大包裝啊 它不能拆啊 不能細查啊我們過去的做法的話都現在連解凍檢查都不行啊對這種生鮮的話 我們都是先做聚解然後在一個地方 讓它先出關放在一個地方 聚解在一個地方啊等我們解凍驗完之後 才放行所以過去都是這個做法但是現在沒有啊 現在它就連解凍都不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6163.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6184.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
解凍 沒有 就是我們抽菸的部分我們去解凍嘛那它要冷凍的部分我們會用一個拒絕的方式先放行到一個地點但是不能夠不能夠銷售還是放在那裡等我們的檢驗出來之後你看ART簽訂的內容就是台灣不得再允許該設施開始出口至台灣領土前要求對FS |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6186.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6200.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
FSIS的名錄中的設施進行視察或審計以前我們要開放美牛會派員去美國實地看工廠這條規定台灣這個不得去現場看這樣也可以答應啊沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6201.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6221.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們還是要經過系統性查核這個國家還是要經過系統性查核然後我們還是有這個常規性routine的查場所以這個是都有的還有一個很誇張本協定生效後六個月內台灣應完成所有的行政程序已承認美國所設立的非洲豬瘟的保護區 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6222.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6241.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
使來自非疫區的美國豬肉及豬肉產品能夠進口以前如果美國某個地方發生非洲豬瘟那台灣可以主張全美皆為疫區來禁止進口保護本土的產業但這個協定生效以後只要說只要美國說這個州沒事你其他的都得繼續買 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6243.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6267.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那我們要怎麼防疫呢根本說明因為其實美國一個州喔都比台灣的整個面積還大啦所以過去用這個範圍那麼大其實也超出這個美國的要求嘛對不對這個剛剛經理委員有講到這個ART有沒有用我們還不知道現在知道說如果讓這份協議生效我們以後就沒有選擇權全部都是美國說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6267.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6283.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
不會不會我們還是具有最後的決定權國人的健康我們還是會嚴格把關的我希望部長你還是要以良心來做這個部長絕對的這個男女的健康我們都是排在第一位好啦謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱振軍委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6303.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6304.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
來 謝謝主席 請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6310.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6324.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
部長早我想2024年凱凱案都震驚社會政府也隨即推動所謂社安網2.0試圖再補破網我們也看到預算從115年的106億到119年的819億.6億將近820億我們當然也可以看出部長對於改善社工處境以及提升整體的社會安全網友 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6339.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6358.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個很大的決心但是我拜讀了一下你們的強化社會安全網的計畫2.0也就是115年到119年和訂本的內容之後有幾個現實的問題想要請教第一個如今的社工人力流失呢我想已經不是新聞那全國的禁用率 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6359.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6377.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
是從2021年的89.7%掉到82.8%那當然其中一個原因是預估需求越來越大但是新增的社工的速度趕不上需求的增加那當然也有造成幾個亂象請教一下部長因為我看了一下有媒體報導這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6379.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6390.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
如果縣市政府地方政府把自聘人力轉去社安網那到職的一天之後就離職也會算進用率的狀況請問一下衛福部有沒有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6393.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6420.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個可能要掌握一下所以沒有掌握跟委員報告就是我們對於社安網各縣市的社工跟專業人員的禁用率我們年度就是以12月的最後的那個禁用的一個人數來做計算12月最後的那天的人數嘛對不對好所以這就報導下一題就是說所以這個報導就指出如果社安網的員工想要離職這些主管會拜託他撐到12月以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6422.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6449.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
好 所以目前有沒有掌握要成過12月以後就離職潮的現象發生跟委員報告 我們的確也在這個聯繫匯報每半年會針對社工人員的流動率進行一些統計那我們最新的統計是在14年12月底的一個情況對嘛 對那你那這個14年12月底那你現在15年之後你有沒有去追蹤還沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6451.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6460.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
對 就是目前還在觀測當中都沒有 目前這三個月第一劑都沒有關注還是有統計那你統計你有沒有發現他12月以後有離職潮 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6462.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6486.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
當然人數是進進出出有一些浮動你有沒有發現有離職潮這個狀況因為我剛剛講了兩個亂象嘛第一個亂象就是他可能一天到職因為他知道你哪一天要統計他就請那天自己移過去把這個人數衝高然後過了之後說拜託你超過12月以後你要離職再離職有沒有這個狀況有很多的因素比方說年終兩職沒關係你告訴我有沒有這個狀況就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6488.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6505.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們查一下這個每個月的人數的變動的資料我們再提供給委員不過其實我們各類人員都有類似的情形就是在這個年終獎金發放之後那個本來要好沒有我要跟你講其中有個根本的原因其實上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6505.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6527.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
都有這種既有的亂象會問這個問題是因為啊你沒有把這個禁用率納入考核所以你就有可能導致地方政府為了達成這個聘用率一再的降低聘用率的標準反正你先聘進來再說你的教育環節可能也不足那大家在湊數字所以如果沒有達成考核標準會發生什麼後果KPI齁對你的KPI會發生什麼後果禁用率未達85%會要扣除考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6536.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6552.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
應該是會扣分嘛對不對取消了取消了115年今年取消了取消今年取消新的一年今年開始取消那我只是想問你那如果所以這個KPI已經沒有了沒有了沒有了確定沒有了你不會因為這個KPI沒有達成然後未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6553.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6561.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個明年度去說那我要我不要讓你給你補助這麼多或者是讓你在這個預算上面不要有這麼多的補助會嗎你們會這樣嗎以前禁用率會達85%會會扣分嘛對不對那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6568.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6586.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
對 會扣補助款嘛之前會扣補助款對不對所以你們現在確定今年之後都不會有了今年沒有了今年取消這一項好 因為我要跟你講的事情是其實這個相關KPI你們也應該回去檢討除了這個之外有沒有其他會導致這樣子惡性循環的因為它就 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6586.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6615.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他就是如果他打不到然後你又砍他補助然後結果他導致他越來越少資源投入那是不是導致一個負向的惡性循環是所以另外部長你們在2.0的計畫裡面第三頁啊其實就有提到將會擴大服務族群那規劃將服務對象擴大到新社會家庭那服務率要從1.14%提升到50%好那你服務量會增加43倍啊那你的獨居老人每一年要成長10% |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6616.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6637.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那還有的這個數位性別暴力啦淨貧邊緣戶的財務社會工作啦那我想要請問這樣社工是不是需要更進一步的教育訓練那這樣子的業務量是不是會增加你們評估會增加多少的工作量我們社團網2.0是預估要增加9000名啦就是說到119年我是說你們擴大了這麼多的對象我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6643.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6667.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
擴大這麼多業務我們當然希望可以照顧越多越好可是在你既有的這些社工的量能之下他的工作量會增加多少這個跟委員說明我們這裡有很多種不同的對象但是像新生兒服務這個大概不是社工為主那麼獨居老人可能有部分可是也不是全部我跟你說因為你們我們還是會希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6667.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6682.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
有不同的這個多元能力的部長我跟你說李建德次長他在2025年12月22號的時候也在這個委員會其他委員會有親口宣告說要擴大六類所以包含了新手父母獨居長者近平性影像原住民多元性別所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6683.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6702.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我要說的事情是你現在擴大了這麼多好你現在增加9000名可是你實際也沒這麼多人那我試跑了一下模型去預估和推估他說第一線人員的體感工作量可能會增加至少20%當然這個估算不一定完全準確但是具體來說就是基層人力目前已經確定還缺乏 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6703.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6732.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
而且還沒有補足的情況之下現在可能還有法律風險雖然我們都希望擴大這個服務範圍可是這樣會不會給第一線人員或是督導或是地方政府更大的壓力我們會試這個人力的到位情形來調整我們的目標啦當然因為這個是提報計畫的時候當然我們會用一個比較高的挑戰的具有挑戰性的目標不過我們會按照實際的情況也避免造成這個第一線人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6733.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6749.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以你們有沒有什麼打算的做法不是只有講一個目標出來那你要怎麼做到不要讓他工作量增加又可以增加趕快更多人我們大概每天還是會滾動滾動去調整這個目標的設定目標設定是一回事你既然設了這個目標你就要有一個可以達成的方法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6750.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6779.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以你要怎麼達成這個目標當然不然你這個目標不就是虛設嗎第一個當然我們有些是可以靠這個數位技術協助的就是AI導入協助他分案等等這樣的那人力的這個留任然後徵聘訓練這個也是一個然後再所以簡單來講就是你要增加薪水可能會找到真心的方式然後要增加AI導入的方式對不對對好那但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6780.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6799.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我想喔這個你又在這個110頁裡面嚴格規定了資新的標準喔所以我想要講的事情是你的這個計畫書啊你工作量增加了20%雖然你說你可能會增加薪資AI導入可是事實上你有一個資新的標準在那裡那資新成長有限你真的覺得留得住人才嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6801.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6823.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們會盡量來爭取讓他的心智要合理你應該要去檢討一下你如果有那個標準在那然後你沒有把你把標準定在那裡然後你要增加這麼多的工作量我不覺得你留得下人才那你是不是會考慮譬如說增加新點或增加新點的折合率然後另外你剛所謂的AI導入或者是數位導入轉型你多久可以上線 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6824.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6847.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個已經開始啟動在做了那你們現在做的成效如何呢在招標還沒做因為這是115年開始的對嘛那我就問什麼時候上線嘛你在招標那等你招標完建制完到上線系統而且我們都知道數位導入並不是一件容易的事情還需要整個體系的習慣運作工作流程要調整那我想要請問這樣子要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6848.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6870.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個都已經在進行中嘛不是啦 部長 你是在進行中嘛你是在招標而已啦你剛剛說你開始招標嘛招標是那個技術的協助但是相關的文件都已經在討論了所以我剛剛問的問題很具體是什麼時候上線然後它可以融入到這個第一階段大概是年底會完成那個系統年底喔 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6871.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6896.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我覺得因為從今年開始就已經人力不足了然後弄到年底然後你的薪資還沒有提升我擔心你這樣子的量能跟你這樣的量能跟這個給他的待遇你真的留得住人嗎我們努力加速來推動啦因為這個還是要有時間啦這個也不可能急救這樣是 那我另外就想要請問一下在關懷訪視員的部分啊目前這個自殺關懷訪視員平均每個人要負責74案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6900.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6926.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
是原本規劃的兩倍那你們要怎麼降低因為那個還是有按照這個風險分級的他也不是說每個的訪視頻率或關懷頻率都是相同你們第二期定本來是定這個1比40沒有達到那2.0改1比30其實更嚴重了還沒開始就破功了你這樣子會不會差太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6927.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6950.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
然後我其實去查了一下國際比較當然每個國家可能實務上到底深入多少不一定可是我看到的是包含這個英國可能平均是15.4案日本可能是40案然後我們的74等於是美國的6倍英國的5倍日本目標的2倍所以我想要講的問題就是說那你要怎麼降低啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6952.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6966.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個我們當然一方面增加人力啦一方面呢那個改變那個工作的這個方式啦是啊所以我剛剛前面一直在跟你討論這個所謂的人力流用啊或是待遇增加啊這些相關的問題還有數位方式所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6967.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6983.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
可是部長你有沒有覺得我這樣問問到來還是有點你的回答還是有點空泛其實我知道其實台灣各行各業都很過勞啦這過去其實這個案子更多我們是逐步在下降了那個我記得以前還超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6984.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7004.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
一兩百案一個人在負責現在我們是逐步在給他往下調我希望部長這個因為你現在沒有辦法完整的回答我希望你們可以回去務實的檢討然後給本席辦公室具體的做法好不好因為不能夠總是用這個帶過的方式當然你說有沒有這樣可能有這樣可是我們離目標還這麼遠然後你定的目標是這樣到底怎麼達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7005.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7031.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
然後另外也有媒體報導這個所謂的再通報率這個KPI是非常不合理所以原因在於你們根本沒有釐清再通報的根本原因所以僅就單就這個再通報率去做指標那就會變成可能會讓各單位變成害怕單責任也造成各協力單位的第一線人員可能想辦法是說那我要往外推這個責任然後最後可能還會推回到社工身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7032.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7056.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以目前你們的這個社安網2.0中的績效KPI也有明確的要求脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報的保護案件比率的目標值要從3.5%壓到119年要低於3%部長你有沒有想過在被通報的時候真的有可能是有結構因素或者是一些不可歸咎於社工的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7057.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7081.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好比如說經濟問題啊再次施暴啊我想要表達的是社工不是神喔有時候不是他們不想解決而是他可能沒有能力解決或是在那個狀況之下就連很多這個宗教的聖人要開導一個人也不是說馬上開導輔導他就可以過了嘛對不對所以你有沒有更溫和的機制用專案協助代替考核而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7082.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7097.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
用這種中央補助的資源啊來這個所謂用KPI來挾持地方政府最後大家可能為了獲得充足的經費然後已經很累了還要處理考核指標然後把分數衝高最後就變成在玩數字遊戲為了考核而考核這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7099.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7124.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
在通報這個統計我們都還是應該要掌握啦才知道服務的成效但是我們已經不把它當作是一個KPI啦已經把它拿掉就是說不用這個來做考核現在你確定已經都拿掉了嗎已經拿掉了你確定拿掉為什麼我在你們的這個你們的這個2.0裡面的績效KPI裡面所以你文件裡面還寫著 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7126.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7154.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
退家的部分那我們再回答你對啊你還有啊部長你不能亂回答部長你不能亂回答我你要請他們如果你不曉得內容你要跟他們講啊保護個案如果是保護個案這個部分是拿掉那其他的呢這個是我剛剛說的是脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報保護案件比例的這個目標值這個有拿掉嗎沒有那我們回頭再檢討了 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7156.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7176.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我覺得你們KPI的時候就是說我們的這個在通報裡我剛有提到我們需要有這個數字的掌握才知道服務的成效但是要不要拿來作為KPI這個是另外討論這些客觀數據是讓你們拿來精進你們的這個成果的部分但是你如果把它錯誤拿來作為績效的KPI |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7176.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7193.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
你會導致所謂的數字遊戲你結構不對產出的成果也是錯的不好意思主席最後一題因為它這裡面可能的這個原因很多啦就像您提到的原因很多不是啦但是你要回去檢討你們的KPI其實我上一年2025年的時候我就有講過我在質詢的時候也有講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7195.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7219.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
你2024年我說社安網在崩潰中2025年我就說你們的KPI有錯誤可能有錯誤你會導致目標整個走這個方向完全不對那你現在的績效還是這樣設定的話你就會導致大家為了考核考核為了樹枝漂亮去美化你並沒有真正達到所謂的社安網的目標啊所以你這個一定要回去檢討然後這個我們一個月內提出檢討好談到你們的這個社安網計畫2.0的106頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7224.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7239.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
你們這個兒少通報案件經調查派案後提供服務的比率你們到119年要達到95%那一樣代表你們強制要求95%的案件都必須進入後端的服務系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7240.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7262.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
但是伴隨現在的數據可以看到在凱凱案後已經有明顯的防衛性通報的思維那因為現在的法制也明確要求只要責任之息就必須通報所以當然有大量的案件也進入了調查系統那大調查系統的成績也不用太難看就一定要讓一部分的案件再進入到服務系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7263.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7283.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以你的現況就是已經湧進了太多的通報量也造成國家系統的癱瘓那可能就會變成是大量的社工人力必須用在調查事件沒有辦法更細緻化在這個後端的服務也導致這個真正需要服務的或者國家資源的配置失衡所以從數據來看我們可以看到這樣的矛盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7284.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7312.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
近年的兒校通報案件數跟通報人數持續的增加但實際進入到這個保護服務的人數並沒有同步上升而且福利的服務量更是呈現下降的趨勢以2025年為例在69109名的通報個案中最終接受到保護服務者僅9898人是6年來的新低同時也反映出這個福報通報的現象越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7314.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7320.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那你們現在呢又要求調查服務比例要到95%那最後就會變成什麼就會變成是廣通報廣調查廣服務然後大家如果數據不好看就會被檢討最後還會篩選最後還會有這個有篩選過也會讓後端的這個需要服務的KPI一再的增加所以現況就是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7335.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7358.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
深入的報導 我有看到社福中心擔心案量太大那他可能會為了衝高開案率社工會在長官的受益下 可能啊會讓一些單純只是申請急難紓困的資源可能沒有其他明顯問題不需要後續處於的民眾列為追蹤個案所以你廣開了短期服務三個月後又快速結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7359.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7378.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
就變成一個在追求數字的遊戲你們未來會如何避免是不是應該要建立相關的案件風險的評估機制不是單純的要求服務比率拉高然後你所謂不管是分流分級你到底應該每一個階層你應該怎麼去設計不是一味的用數字去壓是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7380.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7399.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
跟委員說明現在就是利用這個調查中心先篩案因為幾個事件之後那麼這個防衛性通報確實有增加的情形所以才會透過中間這一層去篩案所以後面所謂的服務提供比例是篩完之後交付 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7400.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7418.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
下一段那麼的服務比例並不是所有進來的95%都要去服務所以現在這個有很明確嗎因為我們聽得很明確假設你沒有聽得很明確然後也沒有說一定要20%的開案率也沒有這個指標我跟你講這個叫做有點像是潛規則我們擔心有這個潛規則因為你設計的KPI導致了整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7423.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7434.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
整個這個運作流程有問題所以我要提醒部長如果整個體系如果你們設定的KPI不對你就會導致所謂的廣開案快捷案湊人數的數字遊戲這就會違背我們當初訂立這些KPI的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7439.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7468.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所以你應該剛剛你有說一個月請你研擬一個一份完整的應對報告然後一個月內交於本席辦公室我們希望這個社團網的設計我們一個月內把這些KPI指標我們再檢討一下那麼不要去造成這個負荷的過重這個我們來討論好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝部長謝謝廖偉祥委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7480.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7508.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
謝謝主席 主席請一下施部長有請施部長兩位也好 部長好部長任何法律的制定跟制度的設定其實再怎麼完美都不能讓人免於傷心就是都一定會有一些遺憾產生我想我們在委員會當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7510.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7514.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
不討論單一的個案我們來討論一個整體性的問題就是保護性的業務對於社工來講其實是支撐很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7532.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7547.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
的作用我看我們社安網因為業務需求所以源額也持續在擴大可是禁用率來看呢2021年的禁用率是89.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7552.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7569.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
去年是82.8%也就是說社安網本身一直有兩成左右的人力缺口沒有人你就支撐不了這個安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7572.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7598.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
而且流動率也高最近因為單一的事件所以引發整體的社會氛圍是這樣子我們還是必須要靠社工來支撐這個安全環境所以我們還是必須要做社工的後盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7600.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7618.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我想請問一下因為經用率持續下降所以除了完善薪資制度這個我們講過好幾次就是現在已經社工的薪資會隨著軍工教育調整這個跟部裡面肯定一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7619.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7633.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
包括他每年增加一千可能七年就停這個要不要延長這個可能你們也正在努力中我想薪資當然是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7637.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7659.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
讓我們投入某個行業的其中一個重要因素而不是唯一的因素有沒有辦法有其他的方法可以讓讓有實務經驗的人願意留住還有沒有其他的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7661.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7682.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
當然跟委員說,我們剛剛也提到,那麼科技的協助也是啦,讓他在這個分案啊,或者是在管理個案的時候,能夠更省工程序也可以簡化,這個資訊系統的整合,讓他這個個案的追蹤上也能夠更流暢,工作能夠簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7683.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7710.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
最重要的有一些剛剛前一位廖委員也在提到的這些KPI應該要檢討合適就好避免這個對我跟部長溝通一下就是我一開始就講了就是說法律跟制度的設定再怎麼完善都不能讓人免於傷心就是說在這個部分當社會壓力來的時候我們有沒有辦法去支撐 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7713.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7734.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
社工的心理狀態社工也是人他們的心理支持我們怎麼在制度上設計一套讓他們給他們力量的制度有沒有辦法這個很難我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7736.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7754.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我想我們過去也都有提供一些教育訓練,可能要把心理支持、心理健康的部分導入,然後我們也嘗試的去把一些部件資源給予這些社工支持。 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7756.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7783.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這可能也沒有辦法討論很多像最近其實大概我們收到很多社工想要離職甚至於有一些已經投入社工行列的社工直接告訴學弟妹不要進入這個行業這對整個國家社會來講是一個很大的傷害所以你們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7785.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7811.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
或者是我直接要求你們這樣可能沒有辦法在這邊回答啦有沒有辦法做更明確的工作指引那當然我剛才也講再怎麼明確的工作指引還是沒有辦法避免憾事啦不過就是看能不能看怎麼從制度面來支持社工啦我覺得社工對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7812.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7831.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對於社會的健全發展是很重要的一個環節那我們不支持他那誰來支持社會其實確實像委員提到的不論是這個工作指引或者是工作規範這個當然一方面這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7833.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7855.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個是一正兩面定的太細你就缺乏了彈性最後反而讓它容易被刻折啦你定的太鬆有時候那個模糊空間有那也會造成另外的問題所以這個怎麼去拿捏就像這個醫師開刀也是一樣你叫他每一個步驟都把它定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7856.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7866.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那可能這個病人也會開始掉因為每個狀況是不一樣的所以有一個規範當然是好但是要定到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7867.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7886.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這個是一刀兩刃所以我剛才也說了沒有要你在這邊回答不過核心的概念就是我覺得我們應該要給予社工更大的支持當作他們強烈的後盾要不然一直離職也不是辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7888.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7895.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 部長請先回去好了 今天剛好國教署來我跟國教署討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7908.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7925.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
副署長我大概想要問幾個問題第一個就是說校園安全的問題頻傳其中校園暴力的通報人數從2022年的3萬3提升到2024年6萬人次 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7934.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7938.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
然後其中師長跟師生間的衝突也從2018年每10萬人有47位到2023年每10萬人增加到 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7951.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7979.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
212位增加了4倍那當然造成學生行為偏差的原因跟學校校園暴力的原因都很多那我想要請教一下副署長當然我還是先替你講一下話就是教育本身跟教育行政還是不同的領域不過教育行政有的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7980.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8004.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
指導者的教育的方向所以還是要問你學校老師的管教權一再被限縮以後你覺得學校的老師現在主要的角色是什麼你懂我的意思嗎懂問題嗎那請回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8005.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8031.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
謝謝委員關心我們就是下案通報的有關一些衝突管教的事件人數增加這個問題對老師而言坦白說整個校園的環境還有就是說我們青少年兒少所面臨的社會環境的那個影響坦白說在校園的輔導管教裡面的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8033.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8055.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
增加很多的挑戰那基本上我們也是很希望老師能夠體察到就是社會環境影響下我們兒少的一些他們的心理健康的狀況以及他的情緒以及他的學業的表現副主長我現在問的問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8059.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8070.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
老師的管教權被限縮成這個樣子你覺得老師在校園裡面的角色或工作樣態是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8073.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8096.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
基本上老師他的管教權基本上我們還是都有一些輔導管教的一些原理原則你們有一個輔導管教學生辦法的注意事項那我舉這裡一個例子主席不好意思我把這題問完就是說學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8099.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8109.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個我剛才講的這個注意辦法裡面就有正向管教譬如說我舉一個例子就是學生可能在課堂上就是老師在講課他就講話嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8121.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8139.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
你們這邊給老師的例示是這樣子就是跟這個學生講上課時在沒有舉手或被邀請發言時請你不要講話那這是第一次那這個學生講說第二次 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8141.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8155.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
你再跟他講一次那第三次你可能可以這個都是你們的歷史想想看如果你很想聽課卻有同學不斷講話你會受到什麼影響這個我不評斷你們的歷史可是因為學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8170.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8195.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
每一個學生的觀念跟行為都不一樣所以這個學生一直講話老師就只能一直跟他好言相勸我簡單問一個問題會不會影響到其他學生的授教權 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8196.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8218.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我想應該多少會有影響那老師只能對這個學生一再的跟他重複講說這個是不對的因為你沒有舉手然後你去想其他的學生會受到影響這個學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8221.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8236.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
當下會有能力想嗎他可能回家或者是突然在幾個月以後心智成熟了他會想可是這一節課裡面他會想嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8242.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8265.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
基本上就是學生都是未成年嘛那我們都很期待老師還是用正向的語言正向管教的態度來對這些學生我現在就是在講說正向這個大家都支持可是管教權只剩下這樣子只剩下這樣子因為復讐要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8269.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8291.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
學校是團體的是 團體生活不是 課堂也不是只有一對一的教學是那老師的管教權只剩下你們力士的這種模式其他學生的受教權會不會受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8292.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8299.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
跟各位說明當然這個是歷史那我們很希望說老師盡量用正向的語言盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8305.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8327.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
說盡量就是還有其他的方式嗎那他大概可以怎麼做班級經營的策略能不能砸占比如說他可以有分組那分組的話其實他也有一些小的幹部班級的幹部可以協助維持一些秩序等等的那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8328.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8339.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
老師維持不了 其他的幹部維持得了嗎有的時候同儕協助是可以的 反而是可以的有時候一些小幫手 或是小署長 都多少長我並不想在這裡為難你啦因為這個問題確實是值得 教育行政也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8350.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8363.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
家長也好社會大眾也好大家都要思考一下就是說讓老師的管教權限縮到極致到底對於整體教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8365.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8383.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
是好的還是會有很多更大的問題產生就像我剛才講的班級上並不是只有一個學生其他學生的受教權怎麼保障或者是說學生的管教權過於限縮會不會讓老師的熱情也限縮了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8394.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8401.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個我想你在這裡沒有辦法回答不過你們回去真的要好好思考最後一個問題最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8407.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8426.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以說教育部去年已經宣布提高導師的假期行政假期跟終點費終點費提高了百分之二十對二十五那終點費調整的部分僅限於第一節到第七節沒有包括第八節 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8427.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8449.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那第八節呢有一種課程叫做學習輔助受輔助的對象其實他是國英數三個科目沒有通過篩選測驗的可是呢你們調的是一到七節第八節這個反而沒有所以現在變成第一到七節正常的上班時間的終點費比 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8453.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8469.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
學習輔助的課後輔導的重點會高這個你們回去趕快做調整這個部分我們也在陸續的研議有一些如果是屬於有一些是家長必須要分擔的我們現在不討論那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8471.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8494.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我現在討論的是學習輔助的這個部分這個部分是家長免付費然後是為了要讓學生趕上進度的那你一到七節的中年費高於這個會影響老師投入的熱情好不好而且也顯然不公平啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8494.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8499.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
其實人家運動部就比你們快一點運動部已經把第八節的運動成績優秀學生的學習輔助計畫提高到540元你們現在是450元 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8525.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8549.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這個差距趕快把它拉起來我們會研議好不好那有關我剛剛講的老師的管教權的範圍我覺得真的大家都要再重新思考一下好不好好 這個部分我們再來研究好 謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝楊耀遠發言我們現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9155.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9170.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
現在繼續開會 我們接下來請王振旭委員發言好 謝謝主席有請時務長有請時務長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9179.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9196.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
部長好今天要花一點時間來跟部長討論三個題目第一個就是整合串接這個跨網路系統資訊的部分第二部分是兒少工作證的保護範圍第三個部分就是保障這個兒少醫療自主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9197.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9224.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
今天謝謝主席安排這樣的這個主題來有機會針對這三個主題跟部長來做一個切磋首先是關於這個整合串接跨網絡系統的資訊的部分那其實今天有蠻多委員也跟部長討論這個相關重要的議題那其實我們在之前外務部有跟辦公室來討論社會安全網2.0的時候特別關注有關於這個資訊系統的串接跟整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9225.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9242.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那外務部那時候也提到要建立一個大數據的資料平台甚至要發展社會政務大員的模型就是LLM那在今天的書文報告裡面部長也表示說已經在推動跨部會的串接系統串接 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9242.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9267.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
整合包括保護令、精神照護、犯罪紀錄等34項的資訊系統那這邊要請教的就是有關於已推動的實質進度是如何因為這邊是寫已推動那是這34項的這個穿接系統是正在測試還是部分開放還是全面的上限這是第一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9267.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9274.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那第二部分就是跨部會的橫向整合的成效跟障礙那只是在僅限於設定體系內的資料交換嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9276.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9293.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那警政教育社政單位的資訊是我真的能夠及時的來做共享那第一線的社工已經在很忙碌的情形下那是我還需要在不同的系統之間來重複的登載資料那第三個部分就是每一次碰到問題的時候呢是被動的來召開會議還是將來有機會有一個主動的系統的預警 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9298.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9314.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
期待在每一次在重大案件發生之前就能夠透過數據來觸發跨部會的預警而不是依據特定的單位來發動才能夠召開重要的會議那針對這個三個部分部長可不可以給我們意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9314.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9342.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好 謝謝委員的關心確實這個資訊流是最重要因為我們這個社安網跨的那個部會太多 單位太多所以在一起的時候就已經開始在做這個資訊的串接所以現在已經完成這34個不只是醫療衛福譬如說在精神這個照護資訊系統還有跟保護令這邊跟那個毒房 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9343.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9360.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那甚至有跨到那個這個對司法的這個系統這樣這個已經進行完成這個串接啦這個是已經完成的那至於說這個獄警的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9361.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9382.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
預警的這個目前是在發展一些模型看能不能更早的更主動式的有一個預警這個是現在在發展中是不過我們第一線的反應好像是說這個資料庫之前還是有一道高牆執行上要重複登 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9383.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9408.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
對 還是有需要再接近的地方這個沒有我相信這個在我們過去做這些資料系統串接的時候都有類似的情形因為總是本來各個這個系統它的這個欄位名稱定義上有時候都不太一樣所以在串的時候是最大的障礙那所以重複登載的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9410.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9435.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
問題我們從色證慢慢去跨到不同的部會之間的系統我們再繼續優化聽起來如果已經串接都非常好的話那是不是可以針對這34項系統的串接現況提供一份清單哪些系統已經實現了雙向自動化的數據交換哪些系統還留在手動查詢或單項匯入的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9436.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9449.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
能不能夠提供相關的資料給我們做參考還有跨部會的資料借接實務上需要的法規或技術障礙如果有的話在哪裡是可不可以在兩個禮拜裡面也跟委員再補充其實這個這個資料串接的問題其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9453.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9468.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們在醫療一樣有同樣的問題所以才會在去年開始啟動就是那個台灣那個台灣call data那個定義把它一樣所以現在已經有三家醫學中心可以即時串了 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9468.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9488.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那這個概念我們也放在社福上面所以現在今年已經開始啟動把這個社政的資料也納入台灣call data social就是社政體系也採那個醫療的那個概念所以未來這個資料的串接就會更順暢太好了那就麻煩把這個資料這個我們那個資訊處理處長很優秀他都不斷的在推進這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9492.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9504.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
OK好那就兩個禮拜謝謝那再過來談到這個兒少的工作證民間團體跟社會大眾非常關心這個兒少工作證的入法因為在去年的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9505.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9533.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這樣的共識是透過公共政策網路參與平台的提案有9000位的民眾也有附議要求要任何會接觸到兒少的工作者都必須要持有兒童工作證或兒少工作證以確保其過去無性傷害無內帶兒少的這個前科紀錄那這個只是一個消極的這個資格的規定包括行政程序其實不只是這樣應該是一個防堵兒少傷害的第一道的過濾網 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9535.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9564.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那根據這個提案的通過衛福部在去年6月2號也正式回應說會針對這一次的部分也在會加以研修那在4月21號終於預告了這個兒少全法的修訂的版本那也包括了這一部分這個真的是謝謝衛福部這方面的努力不過也有一些是遺漏的部分在這邊跟部長來討論一下因為在預告的版本裡面有關於兒少工作證的部分主要就是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9565.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9590.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
說在第6條的定義第109條的消極資格跟116條的舉證證明那在前面的提案裡面社會大眾期待是希望任何會接觸到兒少的工作者都應該納入可是在定義的地方第6條的第15款所謂的兒少及少年工作者僅限於經中央主管機關公告提供兒童及少年有關教育照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9592.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9616.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
訓練且無其他法律規定之人員資格之人員那這部分可能會跟社會大眾的期待有所落差那我們以這個最近碰到的案例來做討論的話其實在今年二月中就有一位羅姓的婦科醫師他針對這個在看診的時候或者是他本身持有兒少性影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9616.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9634.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
病患的視密照所以同時他還參加很多的網路來散佈影音所以這部分已經被起訴而且是從中的要量刑那另外有一位診所的治療師涉及這個性侵他在來接受原治療的這個兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9636.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9659.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
很多都還未成年是學齡前的兒童那這部分假設說這樣的案件經過判刑確定有第109條規定的不得擔任的犯罪他應該就不適合繼續在這個工作場域來接觸兒童如果是依照我們所一般的認知的話可是依照目前這個服務部的版本的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9660.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9668.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個都不會被納入兒童工作證的範圍因為我們目前所看到的這個只有教育照顧跟訓練針對治療的部分其實並沒有規範到 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9672.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9693.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那我們目前的醫師法跟語言治療師法裡面有關兒少保護也沒有類似的消極資格這就是我們擔心的部分所以我們不希望說出現一個案件修一個法這個事實上是非常反不及節而且是無法全面的去處理到就是有關於在兒少工作證裡面全面保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9694.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9721.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
好像還是有疑慮的地方那第二案件呢就是台中這個棒球教練性侵這個發生了這個個案這是有關於資料的一個串接在這個台中的個案裡面主要是主管機關在第116條的時候呢他待於去監督校方調查這個教職員的前科因為在116條裡面是規定雇用人員要應查詢並且要定期的來查詢相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9722.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9741.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
有沒有不得擔任的情形可是現在事務上最困擾基層的故事是要怎麼查他如果手邊沒有方便的查閱方式的話其實是有他的困難度那外部在研商的過程裡面是不是已經有跟相關部會討論如何穿接相關的資訊來如何確保資料庫的即時性與勾結的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9742.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9768.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
是否能夠建置一個一站式的查詢平台那個證明的方式是怎麼樣將來是要發實體的耳騷工作證嗎還是用電子的這個耳騷工作證資料的即時性如何確保那如果某人在在職期間發生違法情勢系統能不能夠主動的去告知雇主而不是等到雇主去做定期查詢才發現那這些都是要法規上路前要確認的不要讓我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9769.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9787.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好像這個修法非常的漂亮可是實務上執行上都會卡關這部分不知道部長有沒有什麼意見跟委員說明那麼這一次我們所提出的兒少全法的草案是採納有兒少工作證的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9788.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9805.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
但是並不是真正去發一個證因為這個行政成本非常的高在執行面上卻有難度所以我們在這一次的草案裡面就列出了那麼兒少工作者那麼他的消極資格那未來配合一個系統的查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9806.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9831.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
讓他可以去check 僱用者也好 或者是家長什麼 他可以去查到那麼這個是消極的資格 容易查詢那當然這個最重要就是後面那個資訊如何匯流 那個是我們的挑戰 沒有錯那至於說適用對象 我們這裡把它排除其他法律規定的人員主要是考慮到這個其他的有 最多的就是醫事人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9831.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9847.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
醫事人員因為他有他的醫事人員專業法規的規定那我們現在也建立了我們自己的資訊專區他甚至有肺躁最嚴重會有肺躁那前面其他的這些是沒有所謂的肺躁這件事情所以才需要有這樣的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9851.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9875.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個工作證的這個精神那我們醫事人員如果你被廢照你就根本就不能做了就沒有這個問題所以我們是因為這樣的考量所以把它這邊寫一個排除其他法律已經有規定人員資格的那回到他的醫事人員法規去管理的概念那未來我們現在在預告中那就看看也許也可以再討論看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9876.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9898.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
是 那這個兩個問題也麻煩如果有詢問資料也可以讓我們來做參考我相信在法條審查的時候也一定會有非常大的討論最後一個就是有關於保障兒童醫療自主權不曉得部長有沒有知道這個個案我知道 2021年我們這個家園空間這個是我們健保當時候那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9901.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9917.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
開始幾副那個時候在我這個署長任內開始幾副咖啡的時候那個的受這個前幾個應該是第二個或第三個這個接受治療的對那簡單的說就是這一位還沒有成年可是在他的母親的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9918.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9947.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
法律監督員之下 鑑定之下母親不願意讓他接受該有的治療其一的治療可是家人同學很想要有完整的治療這個當中發生了一些牽扯的問題那這個過程裡面扮演重要角色的台大兒少醫務社工蔡孟儒社工就表示說當時醫療專員陷入到法律與倫理的兩難包括當病童跟法定單元意見相準的時候醫師如何能夠尊重這個兒童的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9947.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9953.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
可能要這樣會面臨這個違法的指控可是如果只依家長同意形式的話就會違反到醫療專業論理跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9955.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9983.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
病患權益的這個承諾這個大家可以了解那這個再過來是討論到這個CRC其實也針對於我們台灣如何針對兒少醫療的這個保護有沒有更這個前進的部分那在2017年兒少權力公約就已經開始針對這個台灣這部分希望能夠加強來保護到兒童那目前的目標是在2020前在18到12到18歲的兒少可以自己掛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9984.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10011.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
看診等等那目前不知道有沒有實際的這個進展這部分可能要麻煩衛部能夠持續來努力那我們也了解台灣目前是缺少具備法律效率的青少年成熟評估的這個制度那美國有所謂的成熟未成年人的原則那英國有吉利克能力的這個都是用來保護這些兒少在具備 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10013.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10034.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個理解力跟判斷能力的前提之下呢都有機會來不一定要取得家長的同意就能夠來落實兒少最佳權益的處理模式所以請問部長台灣何時才能夠有以成熟度評估來制度性的保障兒少的醫療自主權那第二部分我們也知道在醫療法的第63、64條是有制定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10037.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10064.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個未成年人需要取得待人同意的例外情況就是緊急情況下不再此現那類似這個家園的個案將來有可能利用這樣的法律規範來保障他的就醫權利嗎好謝謝委員這個剛剛您提到這個個案呢當時候就是台大醫院的這個醫護人員的那麼按照這個我們CRC的精神國家兒童的兒少的最佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10065.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10086.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
利益的考量所以按照這個兒少法呢提出緊急安置然後代理侵權然後再經過法院判定那麼判決指定這個醫療特別代理人那麼才繼續接受那個後續的化學治療那麼跟最後的這個細胞治療到目前都很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10087.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10104.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那麼不過畢竟他的程序非常的繁瑣他又透過緊急安置然後又透過法院所以這個確實程序是很繁瑣那麼如何讓這個未成年人的這個醫療自主能夠表達雖然我們現在有這個叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10106.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10128.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這個病人自主權利法啦但是那個還是排除了未成年人所以我已經請醫師進行委託研究在今年年底之前那麼就這個哪些情境之下那麼這個如何以這個成熟度評估那麼兒童兒少的最佳利益來 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10131.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10156.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
讓這個這個兒少的自主權特別是在醫療自主權的部分能夠得以被重視什麼適用這個我想這個今年年底前我們會提出一個規劃如果有研議的內容的話是不是兩個月也可以先給我們知道一下我們應該是剛開始在做這個委託研究那我們會繼續追蹤我們在有一定的成果的時候就一定會來請委員指導謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10159.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10179.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
好 謝謝王振興委員發言 接下來請林淑芬委員發言好 現在主席是不是來請我們石部長 又請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10184.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10199.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
部長在這個千年審預算的時候我已經提到說這個對於校園學生問題的自殺的人次年年攀升 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10200.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10216.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
顯示說學齡、年輕族群的年齡層和高風險對象的自殺防治關懷仍然要有待強化但是我們檢視了你們去年全國自殺防治中心的成果報告的數據來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10217.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10234.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
有關於兒童及青少年自殺防治策略建議中有關學齡層自殺死亡及通報數據的分析指出其實這五年來學齡層的自殺通報人次還是在攀升那我們一直是要講說在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10239.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10257.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你像國小孩子這麼小的小孩子男性與女性在106年開始就有顯著的上升特別是109年起上升幅度更加明顯而且自殺的死亡率在111年攀升到歷年新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10258.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10278.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
然後之後稍微有回降 但整體而言 國小學齡的自殺防治仍需要高度的關注那就國中學齡層來看男性女性的通報人次 從106年都呈現上升的趨勢然後到113年已經升到歷年最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10279.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10298.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那在學齡層裡面女性自殺通報的人次這五年不斷的上升在這種狀況裡面男性就稍微比較平穩所以看得出來性別上的差異女性的曲線真的是也很明顯的上升的曲線那男性大概維持一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10299.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10315.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
平緩的曲線所以這個上升的死亡率在107年就拉升開始拉升到108年就開始超越男性雖然原因很複雜這當然是原因很複雜但我們看到這樣的這個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10317.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10336.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那國內研究使用具代表性的樣本發現13歲的孩童有5.4%有自殺的行為粗略的換下來仍有相當比例的學生可能沒有進入通報的系統但是他還是存在校園內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10337.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10366.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
輔資系統後續的介入輔導或未被發現所以國中校園內的輔資輔導系統的健全還有校外的精神醫療的資源的轉介這一些曾有自殺行為重要的這個統計研究然後大概都應該是還是更嚴重的所以我們他這個研究發現說較長時數的網路使用跟自傷行為的增加也有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10369.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10394.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那现在我们先来讨论一下就是说像国小自杀的主因大部分都是以家庭成员问题学校适应问题同侪相处问题为主了那同侪的问题这些近年来又衍生一种叫做社群关系社群媒体的关系那社群媒体的关系在小孩子这么小的时候其实他还什么都 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10396.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10415.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
沒有很健全心理的或者社會價值的這些教育都還不是很健全的時候他就要面臨到社群同儕裡面的這個壓力所以進一步他們就發現說會導致學童自尊低落 危機然後導致憂鬱 自殺的產生所以這個要仰賴什麼校園內的教師 輔資系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10421.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10449.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
然後這個就是要看說能不能成為學生良好發展的場域然後這是很關鍵的所以學校校職員的這個強化的訓練要包含辨識精神疾病提供學生適當的治療或支援減少精神疾病的惡化後續嚴重自殺企圖的發生危險因子的辨識自殺危機的處理或者是包括老師可能要跟這個家長妥善的溝通都是必須要強化的可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10451.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10453.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們都知道老師真的也很累你叫老師要會教書還要會這麼多的專業的這些能力真的也是很困難那如果說不要每個孩子我們都叫老師去網接住好了我們來看這一些特殊身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10473.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10488.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
過去精神病史的這一些孩子那已經是高風險群體了我們就鎖定在高風險群體來看以國小和國中學齡層特殊身份來看而少保護通報的被害人在這三年戰慄 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10489.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10509.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
均為最高然後國外的研究發現兒時稍受虐待的往後對於自殺行為的這個或者是自殺意念的其實是正相關的台灣的健保資料庫研究有發現受虐的孩童在往後罹患精神疾病的風險也比較高在這種狀況裡面針對國小學齡層兒童兒少保護議題的學童 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10517.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10541.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那後續要持續連接的精神科的資源評估都是防治的重點但現在我們看到就是說中低收入戶和脆弱家庭在這兩年也佔率比較高他在這特殊身份別裡面佔率比較高就是一樣自殺的意念自殺行為提升但是呢大家在 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10542.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10567.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
社群網路裡面有很多焦慮但是如果你是中低收入戶或是脆弱家庭的基於社會文化經濟上的弱勢啊他可能自殺危險的比例風險是更高的那特別是經濟危機經濟危機有可能成為兒童自殺危險因子的惡化的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10568.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10596.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以在這種脆弱家庭無論是國小或國中階段自殺通報的人數一直都是近年來位居前三名這是你們的報告指出來的脆弱家庭中低收入戶經濟壓力都是自殺通報人數的前三名那針對這一些人都已經是特殊身份別的兒少了大家都已經鎖定是高風險了 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10597.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10605.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那我們到底要怎麼樣去採取更具體的防治策略更精準的跨部會 跨體系的防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10606.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10632.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那為什麼這個很重要呢其實我們都很害怕大家都見數不見零或者是整個行政體系會變成瞎子摸象你知道我們辨識出這些風險的來源那你有沒有一套能夠整合教育 社政 衛生 心理衛生串接起來的介入模式那為什麼要講這個因為這問題都很複雜教育端你看到孩子可能是說沒有來上課缺課 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10634.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10650.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
適應不良同儕關係衝突不好那是教育看到的可是社政端他看到的可是這個家庭脆弱照顧壓力然後到醫療端處理的就是說這個孩子送到醫療來他有情緒問題我處理他的精神疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10651.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10675.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
每個部門都看到自己看見的處理自己的屬於自己的權責應該要負責的那部分卻沒有一個整合全貌串接起來這個全面式的介入的模式所以我們擔心說這樣的制度安排對高風險而造而言風險大家都看到了而且大家都只看到自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10676.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10701.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
可是有沒有一個可以串接起來針對這樣的家庭是全面式的關照全面式的這個介入的一個模式呢謝謝委員提到確實在這個全球的報告也是這樣在COVID之後那個Mental Health的問題反映在那個自殺率的上升那台灣也是同樣的問題這也是一種社會不平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10702.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10727.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個在青少年也看到這個趨勢這個趨勢跟世界各國的趨勢是對啦那我現在講的重點就是說社政看到社政的問題處理社政的問題教育看到教育的問題處理教育的問題醫療看到醫療界需要的提供的服務他就提供他自己的服務可是大家都沒有看到這個串聯起來你可能要處理的可能就不是某一個部門的問題它是全面式的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10732.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10750.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以我們現在先嘗試的讓這些資訊系統可以串接在一起所以跟委員報告就是我們這個社安網的計畫就是把34個系統先串起來讓它這個資訊流至少可以歸人但是確實還沒有那麼優化 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10751.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10767.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
就是說你串起來到最後你是要判別他的風險因為我們都始終知道預防是最重要的嘛所以在這裡面對反覆出現在各個部門各個統計資料裡面的高風險身分別你要明確的去分級辨識轉型追蹤跨體系協作 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10771.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10796.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
而且當一名兒少同時具有脆弱家庭兒少保護通報校園適應困難或精神醫療他都已經被看見了多重風險的時候那主責要換誰那誰要負責來整合資訊那誰要來判斷要提高處遇的強度還有就是說我們整個全面式的這個處遇到底誰哪一個部門要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10799.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10824.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
跟委員說明因為我們剛剛也提到這個一組折然後共同協多方協力協作對那這個的概念就是說比如說他是從這個翠家進來的那當然他如果是屬於保護個案的那他就是這個保護性社工會組折你們就只處理保護的但是他就要去連結其他因為他就可以看得到他的其他的資訊那也許他是精神個案進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10825.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10831.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那可能是以這個我們精神這邊的醫療人員為主但是我們意思是說他可能看到萃家的然後看到醫療的這個精神個案的那其實他的狀況可能來自於多重的多重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10841.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10858.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
它可能是經濟壓力、那父母的家庭功能的失調的那全面性的要介入的我們意思是說這一些要串接在一起然後看到問題要全面式的接觸它這樣子所以後端的話就會有網絡會議就是在處理這種比較複雜網絡跨部門的會議你們就這種個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10865.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10875.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
有這麼多的人手可以這樣子經常去網絡會議討論然後經常工作會議檢討經常整合式的全面性的介入嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10876.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10901.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
跟委員說明大概比較高危機的是每個月會去review對 就是說跨體系支持的機制要把這些新型態的風險一起納入因為我們剛剛講就是說傳統上我們都以為是家庭功能失調然後校園適應不良 精神醫療需求但對脆弱家庭來講的孩子而言他們新時代比如說網路霸凌 社群媒體成癮 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10902.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10924.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個很多 真的 複合式的自殺資訊的擴散 新興自殺方法的擴散往往會跟既有的家庭壓力 情緒困擾和求助失靈交互作用 然後當然放大那個風險所以你們現在要進入的是已經到一個網路時代裡面的網路社群媒體的這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10927.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10938.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
現象裡面的負面的作用交織跟傳統的問題交織在一起放大那一些問題那你們其實也都有看到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10940.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10964.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以你們的報告也提到網路社群媒體跟自殺的相關智慧型手機 社群媒體的興起那可能引發了自殺的危機其實國外的系統文獻包括網路使用 網路霸凌都跟自殺 自傷的還有憂鬱的增加有關那台灣的研究也是發現網路成癮跟一週精神症狀包括睡眠困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10968.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10987.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
長期就失眠了,小孩子就在失眠了然後把焦慮、苦惱、憂鬱、感覺比不上別人以及自殺意念之間形成顯著的相關那這種成癮、霸凌就進一步導致自殺的風險其實不要講小孩,連大人都有失眠問題就想自殺了失眠障礙,那失眠障礙年齡層一直往下掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10991.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10996.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那網路媒體資訊的興起也改變了自殺資訊的傳播方式馬街醫院的團隊對2479位青少年調查研究3%的人曾經在網路上接觸過自殺相關的內容特別是每當新興自殺的方法出現新聞傳播了 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11013.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11037.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
網路媒體的影響更為顯著那台大一個教授張書生他就講在媒體報導某種新興的自殺方法在日本他們就發現網路的搜尋量增加50倍在英國增加9倍然後還有網站上相約自殺這種東西就是這就是真的是進一步的模仿大家都一直模仿那 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11038.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11068.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
在這種狀況裡面我們也看到你們都看到了你們的報告就全國自殺防治中心成果報告你們都有寫到就是說關於網路社群媒體跟自殺風險的文字年年都有講年年都有報告你們也都看到了但是我們要問的是說可是他還是不斷的在攀升自殺的次數自殺的人數自殺的年齡層下降自殺的人數上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11069.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11096.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
你們都看到了可是他還是問題越來越嚴重所以連續每年你們都這樣警訊可是我們看不到你的報告裡面相應的政策的升級也沒有看到更具體的監測介入和防治的機制所以在這裡我們如果你們都知道了我們要問的就不是研究的結論而是要問你們說你們我們國家政府端出來的相對應的政策到底是什麼因為這種網路風險跟傳統的校園 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11098.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11116.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
家庭的風險重疊在一起會擴大那它具有擴散快模仿性高接觸無國界隱蔽性強的特色那在學校裡面社群平台匿名論壇影音平台通訊群組大量的散發接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11117.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11143.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
在這種狀況裡面政府也應該要有新的治理的工具而不是你在報告裡面把這一些現象用舊的文字重複一遍再重複一遍所以呢台灣公共衛生雜誌2023年台灣青少年自殺率上升的相關因素與預防對策的啟發有講到這個青少年因為特定網路內容或使用方式而增加心理困擾與自殺風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11145.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11159.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
然後再大概指出青少年在網路上閱讀自殺相關資訊習得的學習到的自殺的方法或模仿的效應特別是名人自殺或是網路上報導的自殺的情節一直在模仿 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11160.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11178.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以英國研究自殺死亡的青少年裡面在死亡以前他們13%都有搜尋自殺的方法的資訊10%在網路都發表想要自殺那台灣大概還沒有看到這一方面的數據那所以台灣還有一個現象是15到24歲輟學的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11181.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11209.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
15到24歲學齡層但錯學的自殺的風險跟相關因素也即待研究因為這些人數可能更在於學齡層在學的這個比例所以我們從這些資訊就是說部長網路風險的行為監測還有錯學學生族群的自殺風險研究還有後續支持的資源的建置我們不能夠再這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11210.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11235.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
只是宣導只是提醒其實風險辨識早期通報校園應變合作平台合作轉介支持這一些都一連串的是要跨部會的我們不想要看到你告訴我有這種風險我們想要看到的是你的政策是升級是upgrade而且是與時俱進的而且是知道重點你已經不能是傳統式的那些風險辨識了 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11239.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11254.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
跟委員說明確實這個社群媒體就如同您剛剛提到的越來越多的報告影響到青少年的身心健康還有他的學習能力跟他的社交那相對的也會影響剛剛說到的自殺風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11257.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11286.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以我們現在大概幾個方法我們能做的就是第一個我們有提供這個心理諮商我們從15歲就是第一個那第二個我們有iWIN大概協助說他申訴了我們就趕快讓他下架處分這個也是做很久我們講的是社群網路上的問題那第三個我們也跟速發部合作透過那個AI巡查然後即時反應給我們然後我們判斷之後就讓他遮蔽或下架大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11286.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11314.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
有這幾個做法上在進行那也跟教育部也在合作教育部在校園裡面呢他也會限制使用被載學的 載學的他的自殺風險可能很高其實複合式的包括經濟壓力的經濟壓力再加上網路被霸凌的因為社會文化經濟弱勢在網路上更容易被嘲笑在這種同儕團體之間被嘲笑壓力更大 想死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11316.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11345.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
對 那這個我們也會跟教育部大家來合作強化這個對於這個高脆弱家庭跟這個其實你們 我都跟你們說出來都跟以前一樣啊對啊我們繼續來研究看還有什麼現在其他有辦法再做或者是其他的做法上難道沒有可以更精進的更可以有效的防治的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11347.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11371.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們來繼續研究啦好啦小孩子我們看到小孩子自殺的比例越來越高人數越來越多真的覺得很捨不得而且不應該啦因為他們還那麼小就想要死剛出生就想要死這件事情就是社會的責任國家的責任了啦好謝謝林淑雯委員發言接下來請賴世寶委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11387.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11391.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外務部的史部長有請史部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11395.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11410.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
賴議員好賴副總理好我想大概前面的我已經問了啦我還是在問你關心一下那個馬鈴薯啊這個主要他院長說要每一顆都檢驗喔你說不可能對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11412.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11438.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
你做不到你說就是2%到10%到底現在是怎麼樣就是邊境管理我還問了早上我都才回去了邊境管理也沒有這麼多人你知道一年要進來大概5億顆的馬鈴薯如果每一顆都檢驗它總共就100個人海關檢驗的就100個人100個人它也沒有一個專屬說專門來驗馬鈴薯也沒有大家混起來一起用 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11439.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11458.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以整個情況不可能嘛 對不對你這個情況要不要講一下跟委員說明就是我們這個食藥署在邊境它是抽驗的概念啦抽驗就是說如果抽到這個貨櫃然後他就會挑幾顆然後就去做這個檢驗包含這個龍葵檢驗這個就會驗你檢驗什麼項目包含這個重金屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11464.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11485.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
農藥殘留包含這個配糖體那裡面就包含這個龍葵鹼就是所謂的茄鹼如果驗出來有超標任何一個地方超標我們是這個貨櫃整個貨櫃就退就退或銷毀所以不需要一顆一顆去驗不需要一顆一顆整個就退了你就打臉著龍派不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11485.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11515.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那個院長講的應該是講因為我們是靠科學檢驗啦但是另外一塊是檢疫不是 另外一個是檢疫啦農業部他們是那個防疫署防檢署他們是做那個檢疫檢疫他就會去看外觀有沒有病毒害啊所以你的是邊境管理我們就是在做邊境的檢驗查驗農業部也是邊境管理農業部也做邊境他也做邊境管理啊邊境是有兩個部會對啊 你們差別在哪裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11515.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11535.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們是根據的是食品衛生他們是在做這個檢疫檢疫就包含有沒有植物病蟲害包含剛剛說的所以不管是農業部或者是衛福部的邊境管理派的人在那裡基本上做不到除科檢驗就這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11537.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11561.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
都是抽菸啦 都是抽菸只是說他在那個房間署的話他就是就抽掉嘛第二個問題今天談到比較特殊小孩子因為我前沒有多久去參加一個算是莊角吧只是他的女兒年紀輕輕就收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11562.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11582.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
很難過那個整個就很難過就是年輕人的自殺率年輕人只有15歲到24歲在台灣這個族群這個年齡層他的死因占第二位而且年輕人的自殺的死亡率高於全球的平均比全球高出兩成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11583.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11606.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這一部分特別對特殊的我不知道你對於特殊的小孩子的group你了解多少但應該趙立強你應該很了解因為我們在選舉都知道我參加過很多很多這種有非常特殊的有這個玻璃娃娃有什麼的就類似這樣很特殊的這個如果你把規律人數有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11609.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11629.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為我們現在需要特殊教育的特殊教育喔對特殊教育就比較不是我們我們的那個長管這個是教育部特殊教育的不過如果以我們的數字就是脆弱家庭大概差不多是兩萬戶左右啦那你照顧怎麼照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11631.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11644.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們如果有列入到我們的脆弱家庭的話呢那當然就有社工會去定期的關懷啦了解協助資源的這個串接的 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11648.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11675.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
經費這個比較不好算因為這個有整塊的還有包含中低收入戶低收入戶還有這個福利家庭那講一下好不好經費那個有沒有社安網到118年到剛委員報告社安網115到119115到118年5年的總經費目前是編列800多億不是你社安網全部就真的這一塊這一小塊有沒有通緝的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11677.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11697.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這個可能我們需要再我們算一下之後需要去照顧好不好需要特別去照顧年輕的這一塊其實很多面臨到很多的不管什麼原因家裡的原因數字比較低或者其他什麼原因whatever的原因它就變成一個很特殊的group不管多少人都是很值得 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11698.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11712.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們相關的攤位 衛護部責無旁貸要特別去照顧我覺得經費可以多便宜一點好 最後一個東西我看沒有Art的這個藥品跟衣材還要被課高關稅嗎 是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11715.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11738.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
目前新的我們了解的這個關稅是這個美國是針對那個專利要及其原料要課關稅其餘的不是在專利期或學名要和他的其他的原料要都是零關稅對啊可是他這裡前二三號他要專利要要課百分之百的重稅台灣沒有豁免喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11738.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11759.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
但是因為台灣現在是這樣我們真正專利藥輸到美國的只有一個藥我們其他都是學名藥跟原料藥那些都是免關稅這一個專利藥在美國也打算設廠了所以它也可以豁免所以對我們來講是沒有影響抗癌跟寒病的新藥會不會漲價這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11762.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11770.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個我們再觀察啦因為這是全球要價的我們有評估我們再提供給委員參考謝謝賴思寶委員發言接下來請盧憲義召委發言謝謝主席主席有請部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11793.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11815.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
部長今天講社工的問題那我們都知道其實社工跟醫師一樣很像都是處在高壓的狀況之下在工作而且他們的流動率居高不下 量能嚴重失衡而且風險確實是因為他的專業升級跟制度授權未能跟上現在很像變成很棘手的問題那我想請問一下現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11816.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11834.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我們現在的運用人力大概就是大概87%可是現在的我們的預算是從400多億增加近一倍或超過一倍819.6億元那會不會沒有了解原鄉偏鄉高流動力縣市的社工缺額是否高於平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11834.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11846.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
再來當量案超載的時候有沒有啟動降載增派夜間緊急支持跟交通加成的機制那現在的第一線社工到底撐得住撐不住 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11848.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11871.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我們再來特別統計一下因為我們現有的我手邊的資料是沒有特別對這個原鄉的人力社工人力做評估不知道部長4月3號你有沒有看到一個新聞就是台東的原家中心他們就是有到縣府抗議就是可能因為整併的問題造成他們的工作權的喪失你有沒有關心到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11873.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11893.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
因為這個計畫主要是由那個園民會來做補助啦那因為我們知道過去20多年來最珍貴的價值它是以部落為基礎的初級預防跟文化陪伴可是它就是要納入社安網結果它就是要被迫直接去承接了高複雜高風險的脆弱家庭的處遇甚至要 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11894.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11917.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
使用我們現在主流跟缺乏我們所謂的缺乏敏感度的脆弱家庭指標來評估族人也就是說可能要把原家中心的這個工作跟現在主流社會的這個社工變成併在一起就變成說他們原本的這個他們的獨特性就不見了可能是因為經費的關係就會要把我們這個單位合併起來可是會造成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11918.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11942.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
可能就是我們的工作人員可能就不太了解原住民地區的屬性所以我就覺得實務上有幾個面向請衛福部去參考一下現在督導跟社工公私分離 相隔兩地如何提供及時的救命支持是因為我們原住民地區你都知道有一個鄉甚至是都比平地縣還要大比如說我們說的新義鄉它就比彰化縣還大 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11943.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11965.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那我就說你一個督導就在縣政府好了然後我們我們的那個社工是在部落他們其實是雖然是督導可是他們其實沒有辦法常常見面他要怎麼去分攤他那個心理壓力或者說他面對這些緊急處置的時候有沒有一個直接的幫忙所以我覺得這個部分可能要去參考第二個就是專業升級的落差這些我們部落的 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11966.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11986.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
原家中心本來是做預防工作可是他現在直接跟三網接軌的時候他跟社福中心的培訓是不是有沒有完整性因為他可能沒有到達這樣專業的判斷標準所以是不是這個權責原政不對等的時候然後如果系統失靈然後他們要去承接這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11988.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11998.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
全部轉嫁給基層這樣的對我們原家中心或者基層的社工也是面對這樣的同樣的一個心理壓力我是覺得是不是應該找原民會來針對這個原家中心做一個通盤的檢討因為現在台東這個原家中心是15個鄉鎮 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12006.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12025.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
跟委員說明據我們了解當然這個原家中心就是主要是原住民背景的社工來服務原住民主地區這個我們是很支持那至於說人民會遇到什麼樣的狀況對這個原家中心有什麼調整我們再來細部的了解之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12026.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12045.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我一個建議啦就是希望對於原子彈中心的督導能夠建置回歸中心內部以及高風險的案件的那個銜接的標準我覺得為何不應該在跟原子彈能不能在近期之內做個具體的修正檢討啦我的意思是這樣讓我知道好 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12045.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12068.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
好 我們再來瞭解 我找同仁跟原民會瞭解第三個問題就是現在的原家中心和民間團體拼的這些高風險社工 因為缺乏公權力他無法順利協調我們教育 醫療 警政 護政 就業等機關導致高風險預防跟介入的效果有限今天不管是原家中心還是縣府的社會處我們的委外的民間團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12069.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12084.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
他實際上承接脆弱家庭高風險家庭兒少保護邊緣個案其實中央沒有給一致的專業標準跟決策社權跟法律的風險所以我覺得他們是不是處在一個他們完全不太明白他們自己的工作風險的這個樣態裡面好 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12088.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12108.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以我希望衛福部能夠就委外工作哪些是可以做高風險的判斷這些人受過什麼樣的訓練他的權限在哪裡然後哪些風險是必須是靠個人來自己扛哪些問題是可以有專業我覺得這些問題都是一而再再而三要去面對的問題要去盤點他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12109.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12123.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
是好第四個就是我們常常看到就是我們的報告會看到跨體系協作轉弦機制公安會議這些名詞可是我想說就第一線社工或脆弱家庭而已這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12124.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12141.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這代表了到底實際的支持跟共同承擔是有代表什麼樣的意義嗎還是在案件在不同的單位之間不斷的轉手所以我覺得這個互轉機制原理會有說會說共同方式可是我是不是覺得那個信任跟資訊在轉的那一刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12142.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12164.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這些就會不見我的意思就是說是不是那個就是會一個很像是填完表單就會結案這種層層轉手的那種感覺很像就是到了一個地方就很像就不關他的事我的意思是這樣會不會有這種只是轉手給別的單位來做其實卻沒有相對的一個所謂的信任或什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12166.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12190.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
跟委員說明我們現在即使是轉手這個前一手還是要有一定的追蹤到他確認這個新的接手單位或者是這個社工呢已經上手了所以這中間會有一個銜接啦也不會說因為轉手之後就立刻就不管了應該是不會要有一個兩邊的那個overlapping |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12190.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12206.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我希望有一個轉案的穩定率是不是30天90天是不是真正的穩定的比例有多少那漏接的那個重複率啊比如說再通報率再受虐率或者是重複看案例有多高這些部分我覺得應該是還是要有數據讓大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12207.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12235.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那最後一個就是昨天有超過1600名社工包圍行政院這個部分大概部長應該也有掌握不過我想知道想真正要提出來就是說他們真正恐懼的是這個只要一出事沒有強制調查權的社工是不是隨時都會被法官就是扣上保證你這個帽子然後再被判刑你覺得他們這樣面對這樣的一個基層焦慮你們的對策是什麼立場是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12236.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12249.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好 當然第一個就是這次大家爭議多的就是這個所謂的保證人地位啦那這個我們已經在明天下午會邀請相關的司法法律的大家來討論把這個釐清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12254.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12276.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
至於權責上面我們也會再來協助今天下午有先跟社工團體們大家來坐談來瞭解他們面臨到的困境我們一定做最大的後盾跟權力的協助其實他們有一個訴求是業務責任保險這個部分的規劃是不是也有在這次的考量裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12277.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12304.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們目前當然有團保啦這主要是對於人身保險的部分那至於責任這個業務責任保險的部分我們再來研究看看好最後就是那個剛才的原家中心因為它這樣子一個持續的發展會可能會剝奪部分的原住民的工作權所以我希望部長能夠多多的去了解這個問題好嗎好那個原家中心我來了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12306.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12311.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好 謝謝盧縣英委員盧縣英召委的發言 接下來我們請郭玉琴委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12325.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12341.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
部長早安我想在進入這個社會安全網的這個主題之前我先再來問一下毛小孩的家庭毛小孩的氏族毛小孩的氏族過來7月1號原本要上路的這個動物這個用藥的一個新制確定已經先註銷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12341.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12364.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
但是現在其實一線的獸醫師其實我們又陸陸續續又接到他們其實在用藥的部分藥廠已經開始可以決定他們要不要自行提供藥物也就是說他們即將有一些藥物是有可能會被供應鏈給斷鏈了那這也是又再次的引起大家的一個恐慌那我想這個部長請教兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12365.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12382.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
第一就是食藥署能不能夠明確的表態人用的藥品依法可以穩定供應給受醫師使用避免這個藥廠因為有一些疑慮而中斷而限縮這是第一個問題我們的這個食藥署是不是可以明確的表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12383.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12412.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
人用的部分能不能夠穩定提供給獸醫師好我已經重複兩次問題了好第二個問題是政府到底有沒有機制可以介入或者是確保我們的供應是不會斷鏈的那麼在這個部分不要再跟我講說又要回到所謂的緊急用藥的平台緊急用藥的平台我的毛小孩已經躺在醫院正在急救當中我等到緊急用藥平台要獸醫師這邊還要去所有的這個申請的一個程序大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12413.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12425.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
整個程序完畢之後是兩到三週請問我的毛孩子在急診台上可以等嗎我兩天可能都等不下去了我要等兩到三週不要再跟我講說緊急用藥平台可以來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12429.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12444.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
請我們的食藥署是不是可以答應請衛福部長可不可以承諾我們把這個門給打開不然其實我們空有所謂的動物用藥的這樣子的一個藥證但是目前為止如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12445.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12462.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這個市場比較小嘛上次我有提過嘛動物用藥的市場是比較小的所以在藥商限縮的狀況之下有一些是可以從人用的這個部分我又要卡進來一個這樣子奇怪的一個角色請問我的寵物要怎麼等醫療的條件跟時間怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12464.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12482.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
跟委員說明當然動物用藥是由農業部管人藥的部分我們已經重申了就是已經可以直接由藥商來供應給獸醫師使用我們已經那個函都發出去但是現在我們再看一下下一頁這個是昨天我們才收到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12483.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12507.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
已經有獸醫師他們看到藥商的回應有幾個品項已經從人用的替代藥品拿掉了也就是說這些回歸到所謂的動物用藥的部分但我剛剛講了動物用藥因為市場小所以有可能會被限縮用不到的時候我就需要人藥來支援但是人藥的支援現在卡在說那我們就回到所謂的用 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12508.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12535.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
緊急用藥的平台來做申請申請下來兩到三個禮拜請問這個空窗期誰要來誰要來負責跟委員說明這個人藥也是一樣的管理邏輯就是說如果你有藥證的那我們就不會專案進口那這個動物用藥也是一樣如果動物用藥有的除非他缺貨我們人藥才給不然就沒有人要去申請動物用藥那我再請教一下這個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12537.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12551.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們可不可以明確的表態人用的藥品可以穩定供應給受益師來做使用因為這些他寫的這些品項過去這些書籍其實是正常他可以使用的但是因為現在我們的法規不夠明確啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12552.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12573.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以現在變成他們也會限縮啊我有可能會拿不到藥啊那請問我的醫療一限我該怎麼處理這樣子的一個緊急狀況好跟委員說明這個點滴的部分我們同仁已經去了解了以動物用藥的這個點滴的業者他說他可以穩定供藥沒有問題確定對好所以這個緊急的公告我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12573.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12586.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
包含這個台育寄生他們都現在已經確定可以供藥他都是可以供藥的那這個部分我們所有的這個韓式的部分是不是今天就可以提供出來韓式已經發了已經發了嗎4月17號我們就發了但是我要請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12591.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12610.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
以後這樣子的問題三天兩頭就會發生一次三天兩頭就會發生一次我們要不要直接用一個方法就可以解決負面表列用負面表列的方式是不是就可以解決這種根本的問題不然我收到的陳情你們收到的陳情還有我們這邊要問你們幫忙我們一線的動物醫師來做轉達我相信會反不勝反啦負面表列要不要考慮這個都可以來討論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12621.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12640.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
但是負面表列的必須要肯慎到的就是說已經有動物藥的部分那基本上人要就不要去不然的話以後都完全沒有動物藥了今天時間非常的有限下午2點我會邀集很多的動物醫師 獸醫師一線的獸醫師他們現在面臨的處境我會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12644.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12663.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我們的這個經濟委員會現在的這個紅樓的一樓我們會開一個座談會我歡迎衛福部歡迎食藥署可以到場聆聽現場的困境可以嗎好好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝郭昱請委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12675.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12696.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
有氣勢 副長歡迎 您好部長好 部長在這個4月份4月2號是社工日嘛那我們彰化這邊也有舉辦這個社工的表揚大會那在會場上面其實社工也表達他們的工作其實這個面對的第一線 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12697.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12712.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
他們很多都是這個協助一些弱勢族群那在這個凱凱案的這個審判一審宣判就是說負責個案訪視的這個社工一過失致死判處有期徒刑兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12713.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12729.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那這個判刑之後其實很多社工會覺得他們在這個社會安全網的其中一個他們要面對第一線那如果是這樣子的話其實他們承受的非常大的壓力我想請教部長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12732.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12758.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這個這個宣判之後其實未來有可能社工會有一個出走潮其實社工的工作壓力面對的壓力非常大再來就是說他其實薪資也不高那面對這樣的一個狀況部長你怎麼樣來這個止血就是說這個宣判下去其實社工他們私底下也會講就是說這個工作確實這個高壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12761.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12777.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
然後薪資也不是那麼好所以他們出走之後那未來這些弱勢族群或者是社會安全網的其中一員那你要怎麼樣來補足或者是說怎麼樣讓社工的工作環境能夠好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12778.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12805.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好 那跟委員說明當然在這個事件發生我們是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也一再的表達我們會做社工的後盾所以在這個判決下來之後那麼大家比較有爭議的這個保證人地位這件事情那麼我們也在明天下午會邀請法界大家來討論 討論出一個方式那麼我們來持續的跟法界溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12806.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12823.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那第二個呢 那還是要回到如果是以這個案子來講他是在收租養的過程當中那麼就由社工去扛責了那我們在這個事件之後也改變了那麼一定在收租養的過程當中地方政府要扮演一定的角色不要讓社工獨自面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12824.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12843.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那第三個當然對於社工的人力的補充還有這個薪資津貼那麼這些我們也會持續的來改善那包含我們在社安網2.0裡面那麼也預計在持續的去螺製更多的社工的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12843.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12858.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那當然也要搭配這個資訊系統的整合那麼包含一些AI的協助讓他的工作負荷也能夠得到一些緩解所以這些我們都在努力的在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12859.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12863.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
其實社工這個工作需要有很大的勇氣跟熱情其實我們看到就是說彰化這邊的接受表揚的這些社工其實他們在這個社工的這個工作有的就是時間都已經很長那就是有那個熱情才有辦法做這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12877.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12894.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以我覺得說衛福部應該是要成為社工的一個最好的一個後盾那個未來怎麼樣讓他們的工作這個環境能夠更好我覺得應該是衛福部這邊應該要做的其實社工的工作很多時候跟醫護人員差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12895.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12914.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
他面對的這個個案的狀況其實有時候差異很大然後也有很多的不預期性那甚至有時候還有急迫性要處理像保護性社工經常是晚上就可能也要臨時出來處理所以他的這個工作高壓然後風險也不低 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12914.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12941.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以我覺得應該要有不同的思維那我們絕對是做社工的後盾那其實我們看到這個就是說社工跟保姆那社工跟保姆之間其實也不是說這個監督或者是被監督的這樣一個關係其實應該是一個這個協助跟合作的一個關係所以其實我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12943.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12959.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個社工被判刑其實我覺得說一個社工他如果說一個月才去訪視一次那如果保姆有意要隱瞞的話其實社工其實也很難去看出來所以剛剛部長有特別提到可能就是有一些協助可能要有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12960.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12988.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
其他的一個協助對社工來講可能我是覺得說還要有額外的其他的一個協助才會讓這個社工才不會因為未來的其他的事件然後造成社工一個很大的一個負擔對就是當然我們盡量讓這個制度體系做得更好來接觸每一個孩子但是對於執行者這個社工而言那麼如果結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12989.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13006.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
不如預期那我們也需要回頭來看看這個注意義務啦並不是說不好就絕對是有過失他還是要回頭來看看他的注意義務以及他的專業材料這個其實跟我們這個醫事人員的這些專業其實是很類似的 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13009.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13033.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
當然就是說有一些可能需要去檢討的部分那需要檢討需要改進那當然就是剛剛講的可能縣市政府這邊也許還有其他的督導那是不是也要給其他在第一線的人可能要如果說有一些疏忽可能在第一線在座其實他也許沒有發現那後面的督導可能也要給他一些協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13035.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13053.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
這個是跟起始理論一樣常常都是很多的環節上出了問題才會看到最後這個結果所以我們來做一些制度或系統上的改善那部長剛剛也有委員特別問到就是說社工昨天有到行政院遞交陳情書 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13054.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13070.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那像這樣子的話其中有一部分就是說這個訴求社工非社安網執行者不是制度漏接唯一承擔者那像這樣子的話就是說我們部長對於社工的這個訴求你的回應是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13070.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13096.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
對 就跟我剛剛所提到的這個就是像那個乳酪理論一樣啦一個看到最後的這個結果當然很不幸可是中間是有很多環節上沒有接住所以我們才會在這個事件之後呢做了一些改善改變包含這個資訊的串流啦那麼包含這個制度上這個地方政府應該扮演的角色要把它進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13097.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13125.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那這些都是其實都是從這個事件之後我們做的一些改善所以我們就一件一件的來做這樣的我是覺得說針對這個制度可能有時候也是要做一個通盤的檢討是的不好的部分當然就是要去做一些改善那剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說社工的這個部分整個這個工作的這個環境然後職業的環境職業的這個安全的部分其實我們也要一併去考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13127.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13141.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
其實我會覺得說社工的這個工作真的確實因為他們第一線面對的可能都是我們社會當中的一些比較弱勢的族群那有時候他們在訪視的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13143.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13168.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這些族群他們訪視的時候可能又會把一些這個壓力或者是他訴說的一個狀況就是社工了解之後其實社工的壓力也是很大因為他聽到可能有一些就是負面的負面的情緒所以社工其實他的壓力也非常的大那我也希望就是說這個我們部裡面針對社工的這個職業安全或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13170.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13182.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
也許社工他搞不好自己也需要心理諮商我覺得其實我會碰到很多譬如說我們家福的一些社工其實他們到第一線去訪視之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13185.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13204.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
社工他們會講說這個家庭的狀況那有時候如果社工本身心理狀況不是那麼堅強的話其實他的情緒也是會有一些起伏所以我們也希望一方面就是讓社工有一個安全的這個職業環境那另外就是說社工的心理 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13204.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13232.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
心理狀況其實我覺得我們也要去注意那讓更多人願意投入社工的這個工作要不然其實我覺得這個判刑出來之後其實很多人會覺得說那我就去隨便找一個工作他的這個工作環境也許還比社工好那薪水也許也會比社工還高所以我覺得這方面也是我們這個部裡面未來要去注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13232.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13257.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們來強化那個對社工的那個心理支持的部分我們來強化好那這個工作是這個整個工作環境是最重要的如果說社工有這個熱情有這個熱心有這個熱情投入那如果整個環境對他是不利的話其實我覺得那個未來社工的出走潮應該是會一波接著一波 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13258.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13283.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們黃秀芳委員發言跟委員會報告我們今天下午繼續開會待全數委員詢答完畢後再行休息現在可以把便當發下去一邊用餐那也請在下方的委員們可能要注意到聲音因為會影響到人家的質詢那接下來我們請范雲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13289.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13313.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
謝謝昭緯 有請部長有請石部長方委員好剛剛黃秀芳委員有關心到社工到行政院抗議的事情那我同時也是想要呼籲衛福部一定要關注第一線社工的這個非常嚴重的焦慮因為國家接住社工 社工才能接住個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13314.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13332.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
好那謝謝部長認同那這個部分我們之後再來我們非常支持所以今天下午我們會有先第一波跟社工的這個對話那後續我們也如果這個因為大家工作的關係或距離的關係沒辦法來我們也會考慮到分區去做一些座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13333.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13356.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我想如果能夠分區座談那就是最好的今天我是針對狼醫的議題想再來質詢衛福部因為我想部長應該非常的清楚近年狼醫事件不斷的發生以下這邊我給大家看的這三個新聞其中第一個陳情案是我處理的後來已經法院判決確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13357.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13384.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那這三個新聞都是發生在同一所醫院就是台大醫院然後都是發生在同一個婦產科2023到2025兩年內三個很大的案子而且這三個案子呢都不是只是性騷擾是性侵跟猥褻其中還有一對多我想部長您應該可以同意非常嚴重的問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13385.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13412.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
對 這個我也是覺得很汗顏啦因為我也來自這一家醫院那麼我們的教育啦那特別是在這個性別教育上我們確實需要在強化那麼近期這個新任的余院長他也非常的積極的認識那麼也推出了這個系列的這個改革的措施那我想這個應該有所改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13413.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13429.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那很高興部長同意就是說教育的部分要強化然後台大醫院的新院長有這個認知那我現在想問的是台大醫院上面就是衛福部嘛對不對那衛福部該做的事情到底有沒有做好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13430.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13451.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那回來看就是剛剛相關的醫師就是因為媒體的關注那有得到相關的懲戒那我們看一下醫師法第25條一副懲戒第二條一定要判刑確定那可是大家知道在台灣要判刑確定要很多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13452.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13470.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
像剛剛那麼嚴重的事情你應該會認同只要揭露之後他不用等到判刑確定要暫時就不能夠執業吧最近的案子我們都是先處理就是說按照譬如說他是按照性供法或者是性騷法等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13471.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13492.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那麼都會先暫停他的臨床業務都會要求衛生局去先暫停在調查期間因為他還是需要調查啦不是馬上因為剛剛提到判刑是很久的但是我們還是有行政調查所以就會要求這個衛生局去做行政調查在調查的期間呢先暫停他的臨床業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13493.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13516.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那因為時間有限我是要跟部長講這個在我們教育體系我是來自教育文化委員會我們已經現在處理到修教師法因為它一旦有權勢關係的教師進入調查的時候為了保障學生就必須暫時不能教那當然後來調查結果確定之後那就教師公會主張說要緩緩他應有的薪資這當然是的還有名譽對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13521.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13547.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那我們已經處理到這麼細緻了可是你看這個法條今天我們看到的很多的案子其實在這個過程中就是所謂的懲戒機構就是地方政府的這些委員會完全不知情那因為時間的緣故我要來跟您講以這個是我辦公室畫出來的醫師法的流程你會看到就是這裡面雖然好像對我講啟動懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13550.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13574.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
可是如何啟動懲戒是誰發起處理的時效懲戒標準完全沒有在醫師法中有詳細的規範今天是我第三次針對醫師懲戒機制質詢很遺憾前面兩次都不是您前面我記得有邱部長然後有次長今天是第三次我都是針對醫師懲戒機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13576.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13580.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
可是衛福部回給我的是什麼這是衛福部回給我的文他跟我講有資訊公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13582.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13607.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
部長這個我覺得這一個事情要質詢到三次而且非常的遺憾的是去年5月21號第一次質詢都快一年了欸您剛剛講認同的東西那惠福部是為什麼都沒有再聽我質詢嗎明明部長跟次長都口口聲聲答應的是我還是拿到一個雞同鴨講的公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13608.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13624.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那讓我檢討是不是我質詢不夠兇所以沒有得到合理的對待不曉得應該不是吧不是不是不是這個我會來檢討好看看那因為不是您所以我今天就尊重您會處理好那我要講的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13626.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13652.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個資訊專區你們處理了可是我剛講的完全沒有處理這件事情監察院在調查了在我質詢後今年1月監察院一樣講你們一失準確法制欠缺跨機關通報及橫向聯繫所以地方衛生主管機關無從支息也未能及時開啟甚至要等到媒體報導那今天台大醫院有媒體報導然後最近就是還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13652.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13679.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
今年二月又發生一個很嚴重在新北而且是因為台南出事了然後在講兒少性影像才發現裡面有婦產科醫師在網路上已經一直在分享就是性私密影像兒少性私密影像是他從業來的長達九年喔那所以我想這是上新聞的你們有看過這邊BBC的報導吧已經上BBC了我的婦產科醫生是性罪犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13681.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13705.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
臺灣醫師懲戒制度為何引發質疑您有沒有看到這個今年4月17號的報導那個部長有看嗎這個我沒有看到那請您去看一下因為裡面也有訪問您那您有談到針對剛剛那個新北的個案您非常的明快要求地方衛生局一個月內調查然後不需要等待司法判決那我想請您回去看這篇報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13706.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13733.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
他又引用您的話我講了很多制度的建議我之前質詢都講過所以不能只是個案那您個案名塊很好這是上新聞的是不是制度真的好好修不管是懲戒辦法或者是醫師法好不好不要讓大家覺得衛福部是站在醫師尤其是男醫師的角度在看事情可以答應我嗎因為主席已經站起來了對 可是要注意時間好 沒問題我一定來看這一篇報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13733.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13744.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
那多久之內可以給我一個報告不會再是雞同鴨講的報告一個月內一個月內好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝范委員的發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席楊瓊發言要請部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13760.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13772.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
在你們今天的報告書當中這個6月的專案報告我仔細看過了但是你們說了你們整合了34項的跨網絡的資訊系統也召開了很多次的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13773.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13795.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
但是這份報道我想全國年輕的父母他最關心最恐懼的是什麼呢你們沒有提出來也就是針對於社會安全網的這個部分不適任保姆跟不良安置機構這些的黑名單在這個報告當中都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13796.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13825.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
在這個報導當中都沒有那你們說要確保兒少順利的一個銜接結果把孩子是銜接到哪裡去呢到有虐童記錄換個名字他一樣趙雲燕這樣子怎麼叫順利銜接呢最近發生了這麼多的這些事件所以本席要請教今天的專案報告非常好而且他的名稱很長叫做什麼脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及銜接機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13826.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13841.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
的一個檢討這個是今天的主題那所以我想如果有以通話白話文來講就是說全國人民想要問的可能就只有兩句話為什麼有政府認證的保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13842.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13858.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
跟這個機構還是會有虐童那每次出事情的時候都是我們的基層社工員員要出來做祭祈這不公平啊這不公平所以您剛才說了今天下午你要開始來跟他們對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13860.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13888.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
甚至如果因為大家工作很多到各區大家來做這個對話跟做溝通跟做鼓勵那所以你認為目前我們這些的機制及格嗎跟委員說明對於這個消極條件就是不適任的我們在有一個CRC專區資訊專區凡是違反了兒少法或者是這個幼保法等等的這些都可以查詢得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13889.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13916.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以在任用的時候或者是這個家長也可以上我們這個專區去查詢這些所謂過去曾經有觸犯到這個兒少法等等的那另外在這個事件之後呢我們對於這個安置的這個條件也做了改變那未來我們還有很多的這個修法會納入在平建的制度裡頭平建制度就成為我們剛才說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13918.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13945.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
他不是只有紙上作業他寫得很好你就歐帕你要想就是說你們也說了吳玉璟的一個訪視還有你們的評鑑機制所以我個人認為評鑑機制不是只有紙上作業嘛你要真正實際好你吳玉璟的訪視我個人要請教孩子衣服下的歐漆被虐打 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13947.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13971.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
有如此去仿似嗎我想這個也是我們在這個改善中也包含進來就是對於這個人員的訓練敏感度的提升等等這些我們也會融入在我們的這個改善的這個計畫裡頭所以當你認為你說這個保姆他是有記錄的可是他換了一個名字家人他一樣照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13973.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13997.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
不會 因為他有個人身份的資料上是會被identify是他的家人換了一個名字不是他本人 相關人但是實際上還是這個在照顧也會被查到嘛如果是共同居住的人會被查到才對不共同居住呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13999.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14017.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
不共同居置才是我們的黑戶所在啊部長我們今天討論這個重點是在此有問題的時候我們要怎麼樣去處理他的相關人他換了一個名字就另外人申請還是一樣他在照顧那這怎麼辦這怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14021.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14047.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
跟委員報告我們的保姆要職業都要跟地方主管機關申請很清楚本期剛才所說的如果是他的共同居住之人他也要申請登記符合資格他才能收孩子那不然的話本期告訴你的就是說我跟人告訴你的現況當然是別人申請你才會准他嘛符合資格嘛但是不是這一個申請人在照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14048.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14062.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
是一樣虐童的這個保姆在照顧 這怎麼辦你發現了這個事情怎麼辦後台裡面會有ID 透過ID可以勾結這個人有沒有被通報惡虐的記錄部長 本集提出現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14064.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14085.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
部長本席提出現況我希望你能夠好好的去討論社會上真正需要協助的這個問題這個非常重要這個剛剛委員所提的這個就是怪羊頭賣狗肉啦對對對你講的就對了這個申請啦但是是這個過去被處分過的人如果發現了要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14086.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14090.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
所以這個我們要嚴懲你們要有機制 一定要嚴懲要怎麼樣 終生不可以靠近這個產業同不同意 這樣子終生不得靠近這個產業我覺得你們必須要有這樣子的一個機制出來那第二 也就是我希望你們去建構全國統一兒保避雷查詢系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14109.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14136.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個非常重要 因為在我們的資料裡頭我們看到兒少通報的案件112年是多少 10萬件但是我們看到114年是13萬件它增長的是3萬件 換句話說是三成但是你只有到末端是給社工我們事實上在討論 社工的人員目前在第一線都一定沒有夠而且你要去招募這些 本身也不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14137.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14151.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
所以你們又設置了一個什麼呢你們設置了一個通報調查處處理中心這些人誰做請教誰要做你有了這個資訊然後還要分類然後才看 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14152.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14180.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
怎麼處理那請問你這些人員誰做13萬件114年那現在我不希望越多但是你的人力要怎麼去處理沒錯這個是一個重點就是剛剛委員提到的因為我們鼓勵通報讓這個通報量很大進來可是裡面很複雜對所以你要篩選嘛篩選要有人做請教誰做你還是拉第一線的社工人去做嗎因為都不夠耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14181.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14207.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這個調查處理中心我們是希望導入多元的人力讓社工做他專業的那分案的部分呢我們用其他的人力來做協助所以不會全部都是社工人力其他的人力你重新招募嗎對是不是不要跌床駕屋因為他已經不夠人我要告訴你的是因為他們做的所以你現在大家AI導入什麼這些可以去運作部長因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14211.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14227.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
中錯未入學的你現在的機制怎麼做你現在的機制就是說去通報給鄉鎮公所公所去看了看了之後再通報給給這個學校學校之後再去找人去看至少要一個禮拜兩個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14228.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14247.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
對不對 那你應該可以做一個統一啊衛福部你應該可以跟教育部相同的一個系統如果這個孩子沒到學校來 馬上紅燈亮起來你不用再有這些的通報啊不用旅行公文嘛 我們要的是接住孩子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14248.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14271.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
對 對不對 我們跟教育部有合作有合作對啊 那你的流程大概一到兩個禮拜啊孩子都不知道跑到哪裡去啦所以你們這些可以統一的一個系統孩子只要沒有到學校 你的紅燈就亮起來嘛你為什麼還要叫這個公所去找 找不到人再通報給學校他層層的在上這個公文呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14276.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14300.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
把時間都拖延啊所以這個議題我請衛護部跟教育部這個是可以融合在一起做一個預警系統的你們去研擬好不好不要讓那個旅行公文一到兩個禮拜我們接不到孩子是心痛啊好不好 你多久時間你一個禮拜把研議的方案給我好 那多久沒關係 多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14304.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14331.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
一個月一個月通報出來方案謝謝統一好謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員那我就會服務也要提醒一下剛剛楊瓊英委員質詢的很重要你們過去都是戶籍同住可是基本上同住可是如果他戶籍不在一起的時候照樣再住那個家還是會產生楊瓊英委員提的那個東西還是要去處理接下來我們請陳昭芝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14338.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14340.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
謝謝主席有請部長有請石部長陳委員好部長好我今天跟你談這個收出養的問題對一個孩子來說他被出養大概對一生是非常重大的一個影響或是改變但是就我個人的實務經驗來說其實收出養這個制度它影響的至少有三方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14362.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14385.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
一個是就是出養家庭所謂的原生家庭還有孩子本身孩子本身當然有但是對於收養家庭其實也是都是一生非常長期而且不是很容易做的功課那部長這個經過凱凱案之後整個收養制度我國收出養制度依照現行的方式是由地方政府來負責出養的必要性評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14386.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14390.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
然後有民間媒合這個機構來負責這個收養家庭評估媒合還有兒童這個追蹤的這個發展等等等等但是問題我覺得不是有沒有分工而是說分工之後有沒有足夠的專業能力去接住這項高度專業的這個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14405.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14425.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那過去民間機構他是專責的他是專責的但是現在地方政府他們是用第一線的社工來做這件事他等於是監辦然後還有案件的這個量重然後個案又分散老實說他們那個經驗的累積不容易所以事實上他的整個評估標準就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14425.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14443.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
他自然會有落差部長這是我非常重視一件事情那利新基金會其實早在去年五月他就發文提醒了無論是社會局的家庭福利組的社工或是在全國各地社福中心基層的人員他們本來的工作是聚焦在這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14444.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14456.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
社區支持跟初期的預防那在出養必要性這個理解上他在理解上或許還不是很充足所以社家屬是不是可以讓我們了解說目前的狀況如何當把這個工作交給他們的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14460.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14476.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
你們做了哪些努力跟委員說明大概現在統計大概一年大概差不多200案的收出養需求那我們是全國大概是建置156個社福中心所以以負荷來講這個到 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14478.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14491.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
倒不如其他其他的案量可能更多那再來就是這個收出養的這個媒合機構這個確實是一個重點我聽不好意思我現在談的就不是說那個量的問題我剛剛很強調一個專業嘛因為過去是專責但是可看到你們做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14496.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14524.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
不同的一些分工所以刚刚大概也有提到说尽量把他的这个专业的这个能力提升所以也发展了那个叫收出养必要评估的报告的格式大概要评估哪一些东西然后再办理这个教育训练的课程我听说现在有一些课程啊那请问社家属这个课程你的师资够吗课程的我本来以为就是说你们会说现在对于这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14525.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14532.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
要了解這個出養的必要性這個 必要性評估嘛對 必要性評估 你們有相關的訓練嗎那個有開課 那個師資夠嗎師資應該沒有問題 師資的量能是夠的嗎好 我覺得非常 這個很重要啊那麼台灣親子共學教育促進會也有幾點這個聲明主張啦那我覺得其中最重要一點就是訪視指引他應該根據風險的分層來修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14554.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14583.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
威福部目前現行的指引並沒有依照個案的風險來做差異所以來根據他這個來調整訪視的頻率或是協作的要求那部長您可不可以承諾或是您覺得認不認同未來高風險個案你知道高風險個案就是指譬如說出養前的站託像凱凱那初次收養的保姆或是說有特殊需求有特殊發展需求的孩子那要有更密集的多方的會商嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14586.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14606.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
有關於風險分級就是讓他的訪視頻率不會大家都一樣要調整一下目前有一些做法我是不是請署長說明一下簡單說明好嗎你時間有限現在已經是對於他在剛安置初期的部分他的訪視層級會拉到比較高但你的指引還沒有改變你的指引還沒有改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14608.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14612.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
已經有修了就說一定就是按照然後不同的需求那我希望以後我能夠看到這個部分的報告一個月內的報告我稍微了解現在運作的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14623.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14649.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這個公私力協作本身是沒有問題的問題就是如果專業沒有到位的話你把風險是分散而不是降低我們目的是降低這個風險那受署長就只有因為我們處理是最脆弱的孩子我們必須承認本來就不應該當作一般的行政業務來處理但我要強調這件事同樣不可以給第一線的社工做這個道德要求跟這個責任的轉嫁如果你沒有對他提供好的訓練跟支持也沒有給他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14653.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14680.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
做明確的標準那再優秀之後他再努力他都可能沒有辦法做出一個穩定一致的判斷所以核心不是說社工努不努力而是你們要把這個制度設計好把專業的支持是到位的那這樣制度缺口就不會變成那個社工他本身的壓力來源你更不能讓孩子來承擔這個結果就我今天要強調的這一點那部長您剛剛提到的就是說那些相關的那個報告我也想要關心一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14681.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14701.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
因為我自己本身就是收養家庭嘛就是我們後來113年有修那個收出養的辦法還有相關的指引還有必要性的評估的那個form我們再提供給委員參考部長很多國家他收出養的這個管理這個法律都改了幾十版了就不斷的精進好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝陳昭之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14706.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14719.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員不在蔡玉瑜委員 蔡玉瑜委員 蔡玉瑜委員不在接著我們請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席那我們有請部長有請史部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14735.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14753.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
好 張委員好部長首先我要肯定就是在這次的修法確實是有往前走我們也看到納入了兒少工作證然後我想這是非常重要的一步因為我自己的助理其實就有來自於社工而且他們曾經也有人擔任過居家托育的這個督導所以我想今天就要把今天這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14753.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14775.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
制度到底能不能接軌到落地來跟部長做一些討論首先第一個部分就是說我先確認一下我們這次的修法方向是未來的法定代理人不能夠再直接透過收出養機構進行媒合而且必須要由地方政府來進行出養的必要性評估之後才會進入這整個的程序對嗎我的理解正確嗎這個是新的修法把它明定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14776.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14800.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
好 那我想問一下那我們現在跟地方有沒有完成一致性的討論有沒有一個全國一致性的評估指引呢有沒有收出養必要性的評估我們去年才修我們是113年先去修訂這個收出養辦法然後把那個必要性評估那個縫那個格式也重新修正所以我們現在已經跟地方完成討論了是嗎那個時候都有都已經有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14802.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14824.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
現在都已經有一個一致性的好那我想問一下因為這個對我來說非常的重要因為這些出養呢接下來是不是會有現行的攝服中心來承接呢會不會因為現在的攝服中心其實部份都非常的沉重對就是那個評估的部分是由攝服中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14824.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14842.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
可是收出物糧的必要性譬如接下來就是會由聽起來就是社福中心來承接那但是我想部長一定非常清楚我們現在的社福中心其實已經承接了非常非常多的業務包含從脆弱家庭 自殺防治如果現在還要再接的話我們現在的第一線的社工平均已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14844.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14865.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
超過132案有些縣市甚至已經到200案雖然說我們的政策理想是35案但是這個業務再加下去的話那這個工作量不就已經是超載了嗎那我們有沒有去評估現在社福中心的量能到底可不可行還是這有可能再加劇我們社工離開這個職場的問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14868.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14893.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
其實跟委員說明我們現在的量大概一年大概200案而且多數它本來就是脆弱家庭本來脆弱家庭的追蹤關懷也是在社福中心所以其實是等於它的衍生它本來就是一個脆膠的追蹤只是後來評估之後進入到這個收出養的程序大概是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14894.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14914.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
我想因為這個部分因為我可能還要再跟部長約時間來詳細討論因為畢竟我認為這個社福中心應該是回到一個支持性的角色而不是承擔全部的評估責任我擔心這會對他們的工作量其實是一個很大的負荷那這件事情我跟部長約時間來討論因為我接下來要請教另外一個很困擾的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14915.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14928.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
我們現在也強化了訪視的機制可是因為第一線的居託訪視員也告訴我一個很現實的問題他們想要通報但是地方縣市的社會局有時候會質疑這是不是卸責通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14929.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14949.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
也就是說根據53條裡面我們其實是發現兒少有受虐或不當對待的時候就有通報義務嘛可是他們一方面法律要求他通報一方面可能實務上又會被認為是卸責通報那這兩件事情要如何並存呢我們是不是有一個全國一致的通報的判準或者是SOP呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14950.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14957.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
現在正在進行中我們會讓他有一個比較一致性的通報原則我們會有一個一致性的原則是嗎那我想因為其實現在 精準通報啦因為現在我們發現通報量越來越大量 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14966.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14983.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
好我自己是想說啦這個要有一個一致性的原則跟判斷標準啦因為這樣才不會造成說食物上面他會有點不太知道到底要不要通報通報完了會不會又發生了什麼樣子的問題那造成他們又要承擔這樣子的責任跟後果而且特別是兒少不分先士啦其實都是我們的台灣的寶貝啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14984.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15008.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
好那接下來就是兒少工作證其實今天有非常多的委員都有提到這一個點那我其實就前面都已經解釋的蠻清楚但我想要詢問一個非常重要的關鍵就是說我們現在這些不同系統的資料其實是分散在不同的地方我們接下來會有一個完整的不適任的人與整合查詢機制讓我們的家長可以去查核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15009.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15027.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
跟委員說你在我們的草案裡頭這個消息條件會有分門別類所以跨越好幾條他最後呢就要彙整成一個系統不然他沒有辦法查詢所以我們在這個修法的版本裡面確實要後面要建立這個系統沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15027.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15045.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
對但是因為剛剛其實前面委員也有提到有些現在沒有被納入的這些應該也都要被納入應該還要再完整的討論因為畢竟是說他們會到哪裡可能到夏令營到各個地方家長其實很需要知道這些事情好嗎所以要建立一個完整的資料庫好那最後我快快問一下好抱歉再給我一分鐘時間就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15045.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15063.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
就是說因為我們這次的修法其實也有得到兒少的休息跟遊戲的權利那我覺得非常好但是我們真正涉及的其實基本上只有兩條而且還是沿用原本的條文只是增加了休息的配套可是因為我上次其實也有質詢過相同的題目我把這樣子的題目質詢的放在網路上面現在已經突破了65萬的瀏覽 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15065.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15082.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那代表是說兒少對於現行的制度上面還有很大很大的疑問而且他們非常的關注所以我想請部長簡單回答這個問題就可以了就是說我們到底有沒有明確的把兒少休息跟休閒的定義是定義在基本權利還是福利制度呢福利事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15083.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15110.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
應該是基本權益吧基本權益嗎好如果是基本權益的話那我想這個就其實因為並不是只有衛福部一個人要做啦其實一個跨部會的整合的議題啦那這個部分呢我想要再跟衛福部部長約時間來討論如何落實好嗎好好因為在我們的那個草案的52條是有把那個兒少的休息遊戲及休閒權利所以是把它當成他的權利落實的部分啦落實的部分好謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15113.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15121.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
謝謝張雅玲委員的發言賴慧雲委員不在羅志強委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在王美惠委員不在陳培宇委員不在葉元之委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15137.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15142.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在 接著我們請陳穎委員發言請時部長 有請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15159.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15175.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
陳委員好部長好我想在這邊先追一下進度因為本席在去年4月24號第二次質詢你們衛福部的這個食品及相關產品標示宣導廣告涉及不實誇張異生誤解或醫療效果認定準則那 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15180.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15207.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
其中呢這個把這個醫療效果跟這個健康效應化成等號然後都傻傻分不清楚的這件事情那把這個就是說這個準則就是把這個全部的健康都視為這個醫療那去年呢特別有就是說有答應就是說要檢討修改那其實已經過了一年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15209.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15233.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我想要請教一下部長就是說你們這個看起來效果那個好像沒有什麼進度啊好像我的印象裡面也好像沒有進度的樣子這個我再回去瞭解一下因為今天食藥署的人沒有對我知道但是我想就是說還是要請就是有關於那個食品標示的部分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15235.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15259.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
就是說很多應酬的場合都可以看到食藥署的大人但是如果說他可以把這樣的精神跟時間用來好好的檢討一下這個準則我相信應該很有進度才對啊不要應酬太多另外就是說在這次的這個兒少法修法的提案討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15261.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15261.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
這是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15291.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15315.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
恐怕不是就是說讓人家很不樂見這樣子的回答就很難接受所以我今天想要特別再請教一下部長就是說兒少的傷害死亡案件他如何預防減少還有各項保護措施到底應該要如何落實那我們先看一下你們這個第八頁所提供的數據在112年統計顯示兒少事故傷害死亡是167人 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15321.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15323.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那受傷11964人這個數據其實還蠻驚人的請問這個我剛剛講的這個數據是真的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15333.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15360.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
對應該是真的都是真的好那因為我們全國生育人數去年也才10萬多人那單單112年就有這樣大的這個傷亡那平均一個月受傷1000人次的通報那14位兒少的死亡而且還是兩年前的最新資料如果上述的資料是真的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15362.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15370.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我覺得本期實在是很難去接受這樣的一個統計那部長你能不能大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15371.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15394.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
就是說明一下因為跟委員說明這個大概是來自於我們那個健保就醫資料去分析出來那採那個診斷碼跟外因碼然後去分析出來所以那個受傷的話就是只要受傷就醫他就算所以那個人數會比較多那因為現在已經115年了那為什麼可以引用的資料是112年的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15396.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15414.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那到底就是說難道是要經過什麼樣的認證程序才會納入統計因為我聽部長回應好像應該只是健保的對我們現在也在那個有一個是事故傷害的那個那個會議的話都是會用這個健保資料先跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15414.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15436.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
不過他還是有一個時間落差所以這中間應該沒有什麼認證程序就是健保資料但是有時候譬如說他是交通事故的話再勾結那個交通部的資料那事實上兒少傷亡的統計只是我們用來作為預防的手段那我們不是要一個完整的數字我們要的是什麼樣的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15437.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15458.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
然後好發在什麼樣的族群然後我們可以去找出一個最大的這個保護跟最好的預防措施然後努力的去落實然後再看看說成效如何這樣子那目前的通報監測統計的分析實在看不出來這個成效在哪裡因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15462.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15475.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
剛剛對於就是說你們有提到這個現行事故傷害監測屬於這個公衛生議題那公共衛生的議題那我國是採取這個ICD-10的數據去進行統計分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15484.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15508.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
這個提供給各部會去就是說他作為這個政策的參考其實像這樣子國際疾病與這個相關健康問題統計分類這樣子其實你們現在應該是到第10版第10版了對要準備要進11了ICT10但其實這樣子其實是很困擾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15509.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15529.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
因為我們看一下這個國際疾病分類第十版對於這個意外事故它的確有特別的分類代碼剛剛部長也特別講說如果交通它還有一些認證但是這套系統主要是用來作為疾病傷害中毒診斷的分類 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15530.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15549.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
然後健保給父的用途啊不是用來做這個兒少虐待傷害甚至性侵害的統計分類那你們不能因為ICD-10有帶到這個外因性的傷害然後就忽略我們兒少法就是要針對這個兒少有特別的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15550.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15567.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所以針對他們可能接受到的這些親愛的類型去特別設計一套有別於成人的通報監測跟統計的分類的制度部長你們回去是不是可以再好好的檢討規劃思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15568.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15588.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我想今天這個是很重要的一個點非常贊成委員的看法因為要有好的這個數據根據才能夠作為這個政策上的評估或者是建立那所以我們在那個兒少全法的草案我們現在預告的草案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15590.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15604.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
49條就把它納入這個兒少事故傷害的資料登錄統計及分析這個業務在裡面只是說過去因為我們的健保資料庫很好用他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15606.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15632.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
收集的最方便最完整所以以健保資料庫為準但是在事故傷害的分析上還需要採用到其他的指引比如說世界衛生組織也有事故傷害分析指引等等去搭配可能還要涉及到跟其他資料庫的串接所以我們會把它納入在我們未來的工作裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15633.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15658.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
好 那我想我們不想過多的統計但也不想有漏網之魚是所以一個符合的一個統計分析是很重要的那我知道就是歐美國家對兒童的保護是非常重視那部長如果有機會的話也應該有可以親自到國外去考察好 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15658.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15684.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那了解一下他們的法律核心保護的精神跟這個實際上的操作呢的這些職權跟措施我們法律定的再好如果說單靠衛福部的資源其實還有這個各地方政府的這個社福人力加上就是說沒有足夠的這個職權其實很難很難真正去落實法令的規定那 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15687.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15704.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
加上就是說我在這邊也提供一個意見就是說儘速去協調這些社福人員跟這個婦幼警察的職權建立一個合作的機制才能真的落實那在經過很多這些兒少的這些傷害案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15705.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15720.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
好像也沒有看到這個婦幼警察的功能就效果不彰那你們在調查兒童受到虐待或者不法侵害的事件的時候有沒有協同婦幼警力陪伴有嗎有吧 應該會一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15723.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15749.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
有 好如果說發現有具體事實那是不是可以以這個現行犯實施必要的即時的處置也可以好那衛福部跟這個婦幼警察的指揮協調聯繫啊就是說你們部長可不可以稍微說明一下因為很多時候感覺是兩條平行線在走沒有太多交集好我請我們那個保護是市長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15751.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15777.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
是委員因為其實平常這個各地方政府都已經建立了設陣警政這個聯繫的管道所以他們如果遇到緊急事件其實都是立刻都可以一起去協同方式好我想這個中間可能有一些你們可以再多加了解因為今天這樣我想時間也沒有很多所以可能後續可以再把一些細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15779.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15807.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
再多加說明喔那我是希望說在這次的修法可以落實整個婦幼警察的角色那沒有法源依據婦幼警察可能他們可能也只是在警察的職權範圍內呢就是很被動消極的在執行業務但是公務人員呢恐怕也很難去協調去就是說很難協調去他們很難協調他們去協助調查那如果部長認為有必要的話呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15809.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15833.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
本席也將立刻就是我們也會來馬上來提案來支持就是說我們的兒少虐待跟這個性侵害調查那地方這個警政機關呢應該要派員協助調查並且要做這個很必要的處置那我希望說衛福部能夠展現你們的魄力那也希望部長就是說現在或許去有些國家比較困難但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15834.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15855.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
但是還是鼓勵就是說部長可以親自到國外瞭解一下他們的做法那盡速跟這整個警政單位來溝通思考利用這次修法機會讓我們的這個保護兒少的新時代可以做得更好好謝謝好謝謝委員未來在修法的時候我們再向委員請教好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15856.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15884.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
好謝謝陳穎委員我想衛福部可能要針對陳穎委員因為他針對原住民本來在事故傷害的比例本來就是比較高而且在台東他也很關心那我們就看那個數據事實上是高的所以對於事故傷害的監測資料真的要有一些後續本日會議詢答全部結束委員劉建國蘇清泉徐欣穎所提書面質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15885.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15904.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
列入記錄刊登公報 現在做以下決定第一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限則從其所定本日會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝 |