| IVOD_ID |
17355 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17355 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-15T08:33:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-15T11:45:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:11:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc0554717462f89e5b9036db765d14502c847b9569dcea103dcac08a2ba4dcb38d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:47 - 11:45:00 |
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報告為會 出席委員9人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 各位委員還有各位長官們 大家早安那我們就先來開會 首先先進行報告事項請先宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1787.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1812.91 |
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立法院第十一屆第五會期司法及法治委員會第六次全體委員會議議事錄實踐中華民國一百一十五年四月十三日星期一上午九時至十一時四十五分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員吳宗憲等十一人列席委員鍾嘉斌等十一人列席官員法務部常務次長馮誠等人主席翁昭吉委員小林報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項一並按審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1816.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1837.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
委員賴瑞榮等20人擬拒貪污治罪條例第12條條文修正草案等6案2.繼續賓案審查委員洪孟凱等21人擬拒中華民國刑法第83條條文修正草案等26案3.賓案審查委員黃恩傑等19人擬拒中華民國刑法施刑法增訂第8條至3條文修正草案等14案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1839.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1851.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
4.併案審查委員王玉明等18人凝聚兵法第197條條文修正草案等3案本次會議有委員陳昭芝等10人提出質詢委員蔡啟章等5人提出書面質詢決議1. |
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1851.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1853.238 |
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報告及尋討完畢2. |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1853.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1856.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
貪污之罪條例第12條條文修正草案等6案1. |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1856.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1863.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
進行逐條審查第12條照委員林倩啟等22人委員王洪威等17人及委員翁曉琳等17人提案通過3. |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1864.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1893.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
本案審查環境理據審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時用翁召集委員小林出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理三 中華民國刑法第83條條文修正草案等26案中華民國刑法實行法增訂第8條之3條文草案等14案及民法第197條條文修正草案等3案均另定期繼續審查四 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1894.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1920.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
請相關機關尽速通交個別委員基本會宣讀完畢好 那麼謝謝我們現在先介紹到場委員以及應邀列席的官員那麼我們首先先介紹陳昭志委員謝謝然後今天主要是監察院的立法計畫報告所以今天有這個監察院秘書長黃士卓秘書長有來然後還有王貞華副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1921.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1939.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 謝謝那麼其餘的好 還有剛剛許正恩委員也到場了那麼我們就先確認上次的會議議事錄請問議事錄有沒有錯誤回憶了沒有 沒有的話我們就議事錄確定好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1941.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1959.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那麼其餘以及沒有介紹的列席代表請參院名單本席就不再逐一介紹並且列入公報記錄那麼本次議程的排定是邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫並被質詢那我們就現在進行報告那首先先請監察院黃秘書長那麼發言時間五分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1969.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1990.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先生 各位女士 大家好本院很榮幸應邀到貴委員會來報告監察院之立法計畫也敬請主席 各位委員會與次教多加指導也感謝召集委員讓我們能夠在適當的時間來在這邊表達感謝的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1995.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2015.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第一前言監察院依憲法及憲法徵修條文之規定為國家最高之監察機關行使彈劾糾舉及審計權並得提起糾正案前述職權之行使除審計權另有規定外定有監察法以為依循 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2016.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2034.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
國家人權委員會於109年正式成立之後致力落實該會組織法第二條規定之各項職權為善盡促進及保障人權之職責落實憲法對人民權利之維護建立符合國際標準之人權規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2036.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2052.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
擬推動修正監察法增列人權委員會職權行使專章及嚴定相關法規該法案已送至貴委員會判盡速審查以完備該會運作之法制基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2054.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2080.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
另外本院兼顧促進年齡政府之職責雖非公職人員財產申報法公職人員利益衝突迴避法政治獻金法及遊說法等陽光事法之主管機關但仍主動積極向主管機關提出實務的執行問題以及意見並於貴院審查該等法案時充分表達資訊提供修法的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2082.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2089.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
檢二要報告立法計畫提出相關修法意見供各位委員來參考敬請各位委員指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2091.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2120.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
二我們報告立法監察院立法計劃情形第一監察法部分條文修正案增列人權專章為使人權委員會行使該會組織法第二條規定之職權使有所依循並符合巴黎原則所揭示之職責與國際接軌發揮國家人權機構促進及保障人權之功能本院依據貴院於一零八年十二月三十日三讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2120.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2146.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
通過該會組織法時所作的附帶決議擬據監察法部分條文修正草案並經第十屆第五會期司法及法治委員會審訊交付黨團協商為未能完成刪讀本院已於113年7月15日再度的提出法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2148.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2164.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
送请贵院审议并于13年9月20日立法院会议一读交付司法及法治委员会审查期盼能尽速完成立法程序2.阳光事法阳光事法为公职人员财产申报法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2165.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2189.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
公職人員利益衝突迴避法政治獻金法及遊說法主管機關分別為法務部以及內政部本院雖非陽光事法相關法律之主管機關但依法律掌理陽光事法相關的業務在執行業務過程中如發現摯愛或缺漏之處應予以修法改善者 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2190.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2204.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
均主動向法律主管機關提出修法建議意見並參與相關修法會議其中政治先進法修正草案經內政部於109年6月30日函送行政院審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2205.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2223.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
自15年1月16日已召開13次審查會議修正草案業經審查完略代替行政院會討論又由稅法主管機關內政部11年4月29日將由稅法部分條文修正草案函送行政院審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2225.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2243.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
行政院於111年1月26日召開會議完成審查後續將內政部依會議決議向貴院先行溝通以其順利完成修法本院在此感謝貴院對本院之支持協助本院諸多該等 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2244.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2260.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
憲法賦予之職權以及其他事項之業務推動本院當積極發揮監察職權以致力保障人民權及維護社會公義達成機關算治以上報告敬請指教謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2263.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2288.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好謝謝黃秘書長黃秘書長那麼現在機關代表報告完畢那相關的書面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那麼我們現在呢就開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員質詢非本會委員詢答時間為五分鐘並不再延長上午十點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2289.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2299.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
結旨發言登記那我們就先請登記第一位陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請卓秘書長黃秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2310.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2333.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
委員好秘書長早雖然這個任用公務車的情勢並非發生在你任內但是現在既然你擔任了秘書長所以我要請你蓋瓜承受當時事件爆發的時候有媒體在追問監察院是否要立案調查但是葉大華監察委員他竟然說涉及事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2334.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2355.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
怎能怎麼立案調查 就是涉到自己的事情 怎能立案調查那媒體當時還提醒他 以前就發生過監察院秘書長被調查彈劾的情勢如果按照這個葉大華監委的邏輯 那監察委員如果濫權沒有任何人可以查嗎監察委員這麼大嗎 沒有任何法律或行政能夠究責嗎 秘書長事情是這樣的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2359.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2378.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
跟委員報告我們監察院本身對這個案子是真正有調查的我們是透過我們本院的紀律委員會進行調查所以我們這邊是有查查 也有做出相關的決定所以葉大華的監委他講的話不是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2379.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2406.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他不是正確的他說涉及事件怎能調查呢他當時對媒體這麼講的沒關係秘書長我要特別說明一件事情去年當然你還沒有就任在審查監察院的追加預算的時候民眾黨黨團原本是要全書刪除的但是當時的那個代理秘書長也就是王貞華表示將針對公務車濫用的事情做積極的調查因此本黨就釋出善意就把那個案子撤了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2408.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2422.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
當時這個代理秘書長也有明確表示說案件已經進入剛剛您談的這個紀律委員會那預期九月會有結果可是後來呢一直到延宕到今年二月才提出來而且最後的處分竟然是什麼 您知道嗎最後的處分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2423.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2436.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後處分是請這個林玉榮委員在院會那後來他是在院會以口頭來道歉他是口頭套件處請注意完全沒有任何懲處啊請問秘書長您當時有參與這個公務車事件的調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2440.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2461.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個是機遇委員會的組成是由委員來組成所以不是由幕僚來組成秘書長你認為這個處分妥當嗎這樣的結果你能接受嗎你會不會要求重新來過我們也沒這個職權要求重新來過但是我在這邊必須要很負責任的代表監察院向委員以及大院來報告相關的懲處我們也都是依據相關的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2467.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2482.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這個紀律委員會有規定那我們做的一個決定是請林玉榮委員這個要口頭道歉那王文章委員是處請注意那蘇立瓊委員因為他是因為牙痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2483.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2502.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以他去緊急去看醫生所以我們就沒有盈餘懲處我的意思其實你們對別人的檢舉大概就是彈劾啦 糾正啦那對自己還有保留一個叫口頭道歉就可以啦我跟委員報告我們這個紀律委員會所規定的相關的這個權責就是說他的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2503.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2530.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
罪到了這個所謂的那個道歉再來就是彈劾差別就是彈劾所以留在口頭道歉啊對但是為什麼留在口頭道歉是有法律依據的為什麼呢因為我們一般來講對一般的公務人員的彈劾尤其是在公務車的濫用的情況之下都必須要有刑法追訴有刑事責任的時候才會進入到彈劾所以跟全國公務人員是一致我換另外一道題目謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2532.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2537.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
監察院在扁政府時期曾經空轉三年有數萬個案件都被擱置了但是很奇怪當時社會都沒有什麼明顯感受連陳總統事後都親自告訴我說沒有人指控他違憲那我要請問秘書長這樣的狀況是代表制度上是功能失靈呢還是本來就沒有被人民感受到說它存在的價值呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2554.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2583.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這件事情事實上跟委員報告我們監察院的存在非常重要其實啊剛才我在報告的時候就已經提到了我們本院負擔彈劾的工作其實過去大院一直有一個質詢權可是就缺了我們這個調查權已經賦予在監察院調查之後我們再進入到彈劾然後才送工程會您的報告我有認真聽但是我剛剛在講當時的事實就這樣也沒有人提出違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2584.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2604.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
社會也無感啦 這是一個事實 現象的部分秘書長有位民進黨政治人物說過過去監察院也曾經停止運作三年到頭來也是安然無恙 你知道是誰講這句話嗎我對不起 我不瞭解你不知道 這就是前任監察院秘書長你的前任李俊逸在2015年擔任立委說過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2606.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2635.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那不久前辭職的陳菊院長也說希望自己是最後一任監察院長在憲改完成廢考監後光榮離開那2015年賴清德市長他拒絕走入議會被監察院彈劾的時候也說過台灣的監察院這幾十年來該辦的不辦反而成為政治的打手國人已經無法再支持這樣的機關了一定要廢掉監察院這個憲政怪獸我這都是引用的話那秘書長你我都知道過去民進黨多位政治人物 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2636.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2653.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是主張廢除監察院並且認為監察權這個是可以回歸到立法院或其他的這個機制是是是這意思那說過要扮演末代監察院長的陳菊院長她辭職了但監察院還在嘛那請問秘書長您支持廢除這個監察院呢你會期許自己是末代的秘書長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2655.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2669.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我沒有辦法以監察院秘書長的身份來回答我要不要做末代的秘書長但是我當然啦我過去身為一個當初是一個學者的時候呢我也有相關的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2670.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2674.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但是我沒辦法以秘書長的身份您過去也應該是一直 我們也曾經是戰友嘛大家都有一次的經驗我的主張是廢除監察員但是監察權還是要回歸到立法院這是我當學者時候的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2687.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2711.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我再回來我們的責任的部分去年六月那個時候民眾黨曾經召開記者會我在記者會指出就六月之前的一些資料監察院過去三年的成績比過去三十年的工作成績還差每年地方巡查耗資一千八百萬元巡查的天數不到四十天監察員每位平均一年只處理十二個調查案到二零二四年的時候每位監務委 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2711.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2732.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
平均一年僅處理九件調查案全院全年僅有96個糾正案這個數字如果是你們要補充追加這樣是可以那我還要再講賴清德總統的愛將陳忠彥接受性招待的彈劾案在這個罪證明確之下竟然以2比11彈劾未過 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2733.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2743.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以這個相關爭議是罄竹難書包括剛剛我提到這個濫用公務車沒有被處分那院長長期領病假雖然他不是願意生病的這個等等都是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2745.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2774.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那您還覺得這個監察院存在有非常大的價值嗎我覺得委員這邊先跟委員說明一個狀態就是說您有時候看到那個數字第一個我們那是有點片面其實我們的這邊有一個調查數字我可以在會後補充給委員我們的調查數字其實我們第五屆跟第六屆的比較來看我們本院的委員的職權心思並沒有跟第五屆有多相關的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2775.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2780.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
你願意給我書面一些資料補充我們想要了解監察委員有沒有努力在工作成效如何 當然接下來我要講的另外一件事 監察院其實會被人家認為說案件選擇跟調查的強度沒有一致性 一致的標準有時候會被批評只辦基層不辦大官而且好幾位請你看一下 這好幾位都具有非常強烈的黨政背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2800.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2814.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那被形容是仇永怨因為當一個機關我現在在說形容當一個機關在運作的時候爭議不斷當它不運作的時候社會又無感你看這兩件事加起來是不是代表國家其實不太需要這個機關呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2817.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2844.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對這是第一件事情就是說這個是個事實運作的時候有爭議但不運作大家又無感嘛過去有這個經驗那今年七月底第六屆的監委即將卸任現在面臨第一個朝野這個是對立的情緒是還是存在的第二個加上社會認為監察院好像沒有功能我剛剛舉這樣的例子那未來可能面臨監察院沒有監察委員的情況秘書長你有做好準備嗎如果監察院沒有監察委員你做好準備了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2845.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2871.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
其實我先回應一下那個委員覺得都只彈劾基層沒有高官這部分其實我們到3月底我們已經彈劾了132案總共217人到3月底為止因為任期到7月底那高階人員佔了八成法官13位檢察官11位是歷屆最高而且我們也有一個委託調查大概也委託調查了3809案那其中有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2875.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2902.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
平反的案件有389就讓人民真正有感受的我們把他平反的有389所以監察院並不是委員說他都沒有職人這個是去年我去調查的資料他們做的非常多的內容那我需要知道你們是不是確定你們是不是只辦這個只辦只打蒼蠅不打勞工我們會把那個我們辦的官等分析給那至於這個監察院如果沒有監察員你準備好了嗎秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2903.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2926.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們從來不會去準備沒有監察委員的情況從來不會準備這樣我們做的目標一定是準備大院通過之後我們如何讓委員先任的委員來不過我還是建議秘書長您可以去請教一下前總統陳水扁總統當監察院沒有監察委員的時候那三年要怎麼樣來是如何運作的作為您的參考謝謝秘書長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2929.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2946.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝陳委員秘書長請先回座那接下來我們有請吳宗憲委員發言好 麻煩秘書長好 請秘書長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2952.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2970.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
民主黨好我想我今天對於監察院主要是討論一個議題就是你們之前也有做過一些報告就有關那個移工部分的一個問題我想監察院自己在112年的7月曾經對於這個國家移工政策有啟動一個調查報告那當時呢他的那個認為的一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2974.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2995.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
失聯移工它是一個結構性的問題是監察院自己的報告他說因為背後牽涉到高額的仲介費合法薪資所得跟勞動狀況不佳勞動條件不佳還有黑工市場拉力還有申訴跟管理機制失靈等等的因素所以監察院的新聞稿裡面有提到111年新增的失聯移工有4.1萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2997.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3017.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那115年2月呢現在失聯的移工有93305人這是你們的報告失聯的比例達到10.2%也就是說有10個移工裡面就有一個目前失聯逃逸中我在這邊先跟秘書長報告10個移工就有一個失聯逃逸中 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3019.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3031.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
過往這個我們都還沒有找到一個解決的方式現在新的政策又要說對那個印度移工開放當然啦在我的立場我會覺得這個國家亂的套大家都在說謊總統選舉前說印度移工要進來叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3035.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3061.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
認知作戰然後選完之後馬上就政策就立刻就出來有這件事情所以當一個國家高層都在說謊的時候那是不是要需要監察院來去監督行政機關不能夠亂搞嘛那連你們的報告在112年到113年之間你們做了非常多份調查報告我們都看過了裡面講得很清楚而且支聯逃逸的移工持續的在增加你們自己也說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3063.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3088.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
甚至103年1月你們的報告是說目前我國的狀況變成邊抓邊跑 越抓越多移民署疲於奔命 人力不足這個都是你們的報告出來的那在這個基礎之下我想請教一下秘書長你們後續還有做出任何對於行政機關的建議或者是任何說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3103.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3115.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有關失眠移工的部分我們都會請移民署來進行調查然後要求勞動部跟移民署一起來配合研究跟調查然後盡量讓移工可以減少他逃逸的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3116.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3140.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
阿你這是空話嘛我叫他調查有沒有減少那所以呢你們做了什麼我們要求養動部跟移民署他們要盡責阿要盡責負責他們的責任阿所以這就是你們這幾年調查那麼多份調查報告之後還有有些部分的法律的依據還有法律的規定都要求他們要進行改進阿你們有發什麼文開什麼會議或有任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3141.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3165.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們當然會要求勞動部跟移民署追究誰的責任 有沒有當然追究勞動部跟移民署要糾正他們好 那你們有正式的糾正出去了是不是當然有 當然有相關的公文第一個這個資料要給我們一份第二個他們改善的結論是什麼好的 我看到的是越抓越多越抓越多 那我們會再進行糾正那個要求移民署你們後續的追蹤呢後續還在追蹤中 然後我們會進行然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3168.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3194.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你們必須把後續的追蹤資料再給我們一份啊我跟你講現在大家就是反正我開一個會我有糾正他我有指示完就沒我的事了但是我看到的東西會越來越多那為什麼今天我們要提這個因為行政院的新的政策要再大量開放印度移工那你前面的問題還沒有解決完啊你到115年2月給我的資料是10個人就跑掉一個失聯然後你要再開放更多進來那到現在沒有任何的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3195.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3216.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
先補充報告一下就是說我們的糾正案所有的糾正案已經糾正之後我們都會繼續追蹤不會馬上就算是結案的內容然後會看到他有沒有依照我們的糾正去改善那您112年的報告裡面你們有提到一個語言溝通障礙是移工失聯的重要主因所以你們的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3216.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3240.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
但是我看一下日本韓國跟新加坡他們都有基本的溝通的能力他們都有做一些語言的要求基本能力的要求但是目前我國沒有因為這是你們的報告那請問一下這個部分你們後來是要求行政局管要怎麼做我們國家人權委員會也有針對這種類似像同意的問題做出了許多的研究我是說你們監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3243.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3267.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
會把這個研究的內容要求我們的目前有做任何要求了嗎目前有進行了嗎在這個調查案裡面就有要求有關不是你們有做任何正式的要求不是我現在已經再講一次你們的調查報告已經講這個是最主要的原因之一嘛那你們後續對於你們研究報告的最主要原因之一你們做了什麼動作我來解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3269.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3297.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這部分跟委員報告一下我們有要求勞動部的1955專線設立四國語言所以勞動部他們也有依照我們的糾正內容去做設立四國語言的分析不是不是 你們的研究並不是說1955有沒有辦法受理他們的申訴你們今天你們的報告是說日本 韓國 新加坡在於移工帶來的時候他們就有做基本的語言要求的標準嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3298.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3313.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
你們的報告是這樣啊你說因為很多時候因為語言不通所以導致一些彼此的糾紛發生嘛那就這個對於外籍移工他們要有基本的語言要求這一塊你們做了什麼你們對於行政機關的要求是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3315.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3323.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
不好意思跟委員報告一下在這部分我們經過我們的報告裡面我們要求勞動部在這個外勞要進來之前呢要求他們能夠到基本的語言的測試他們能夠講基本的中文然後這是在他們在當地的國內進來台灣之前我們有要求勞動部做這樣的訓練那你們是用什麼樣的方式要求是會議上面的口頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3339.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3357.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
還是怎麼樣我們完全沒有看到這些資料今天你們講的說真的講真講假我也不知道就我講的現在政府我已經沒辦法信任因為一下講認知認知作戰印度移工進來是認知作戰改天又說就有這件事情所以這個國家已經誰講真話誰講假我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3360.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3385.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
112年份的這份報告你們有提到幾個重點第一個黑工市場的拉力巨大第二個高額仲介費讓移工變成是負債的勞工第三個申訴跟轉換機制的僵化讓移工跑的就跑掉了第四個查緝量能基層化的嚴重不足這幾個問題都是你們做出來的報告但是目前看起來也沒有一個明顯的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3387.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3407.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我還是希望啦一件事情這個你們要處理好然後再來齁還有我現在在跟跟你們說明一個審計部也有一份報告出來他說現在這些合法移工的帳戶也被詐團拿來利用啦那現在有很多以前我在當檢察官的時候他們說這個叫坊間稱呼這個叫外勞卡或外勞帳戶啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3408.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3427.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
因為勞工合法進來之後 出境了就你並沒有把他契約的時間跟電信公司等等他們的電信合約做勾結所以他們人離開台灣了 他們卡片就拿出去賣給詐團那現在也有一樣的狀況 審計部他的審核報告有寫得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3431.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3442.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
每年啦 從111年到113年每年都是翻倍的我們的外籍移工涉犯詐欺案件都是翻倍喔從500多到將近1000人再從1000人跳到將近2000人會有這個問題那我們台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3447.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3471.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
因為詐欺 全國人民受害很慘重但是我們對於這些移工的相關帳戶跟電信的電話卡等等的管理又超級的隨便這部分我也蠻希望說監察院這邊要進行了解因為自願性的人頭帳戶這幾年越來越多為什麼我們國家的詐騙案件這麼的瘋狂的數量往上飆 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3472.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3495.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
因為我們這個最基本該做的行政管理都沒有做所以我今天看移工政策不是說失聯有沒有抓到而是合法的移工要管理 失聯的移工更要管理那這些移工的帳戶 門號合法 資料的借接這些跟詐欺有關的金流等等的管理我想監察院也必須要去了解一下這個狀況那我再跟監察院說明一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3497.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3516.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
日本韓國新加坡他們對於這些移工的管理他們都是中央階級的在統一指揮但是我們現在台灣的做法是由內政部底下的移民署移民署底下的專勤隊我以前跟很多專勤隊合作辦過案件他們的人力嚴重不足這也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3517.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3537.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
櫃院的歷次的報告都有提到但是我們現在看到的還是沒有就這一塊去改善所以導致目前的移工的管理失聯的查緝違法拘留其實專情隊量能是不足那你們做出這個報告之後請問一下你們就這個人力的部分你們有做什麼樣的處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3538.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3561.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
委員今天你提的意見非常多議題也非常多是不是讓我們針對你這些議題我們有做糾正的部分先跟你報告因為沒有時間我不要太擋我後面再來我要跟你們提一下你們有監察業務處你們有綜合業務處你們有秘書處我知道我今天問了很多問題你們一定會說監察委員獨立方案我們必須尊重他 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3562.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3568.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
歷次監察員都是這樣在回覆我但是我要跟你們說明一個點因為你們還是有行政的幕僚行政的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3570.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3597.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
今天監察委員就像是裁判誰不對我要吹哨子但是他要吹哨錢你們還是要遞哨子給他啊你們還是要給他一些他該知道的東西嘛新加坡因為印度勞工當年開放太快就是他們現在受到苦果他們現在一直在補這個洞我沒有說台灣跟新加坡一樣但是這是一個洞我們要拿來當作參考因為風險的邏輯會是一樣這個政策如果管理有問題會 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3599.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3622.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
將來會很難處理所以最後請你那個第一個監察院會不會依112年通案研究的基礎對印度移工或者是失聯移工惡化再啟動專案調查會不會有沒有辦法我沒辦法在這邊跟委員報告因為我們這監察委員獨立至少我一樣嘛你現在回就我剛剛講我可以跟你報告一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3624.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3632.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那是不是至少提出建議我知道你一定會這樣回我我把立法院的質詢帶回去好 謝謝那第二個 請秘書處 監察業務處 綜合業務處把這些相關數據 包括我們今天的質詢案情 這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3641.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3647.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
能夠以行政資源這種案件管理這個概念你就交給監察委員讓他們是不是決定去立案好不好這就沒有問題嘛第三個希望在兩週內回覆目前有沒有這些我剛剛提到這些問題這些簽報列管啊議程啊所知陳情等等的這些動作好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3658.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3674.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為我跟你講對好人更好對壞人更壞這國家施政的一個很重要的方向啦我們必須要保護人民我們會把責任擔起來我今天要求的不是要監察院表態這個異度移工要不要來的我不是要要求這個我只是說麻煩啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3676.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3700.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
監督因為目前你們給我的報告十個人就有一個失聯中這個越來越嚴重那我當過檢察官我最在意的是國內的治安問題移工在國內目前確實有造成一些治安上面疑慮以及譬如說有一些人家說三老鼠他們有一些團體現在都變成移工在組成這個都已經現在實務上面的事實麻煩這個要由你們督促一下行政機關趕快處理這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3702.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3704.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
把委員隊的建議帶回去謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝吳宗憲委員好那麼接下來我們有請審發會委員發言主席我們請秘書長有請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3731.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3754.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
孫委員好 您好我們是老同事謝謝 請多指教今天在這個其實可以說是監察院的風雨飄搖的時刻你在這個時候來承擔那在這邊是先跟你說聲辛苦謝謝那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3758.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3784.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我今天大概主要要請教這個秘書長的部分是我們到目前為止中央政府總預算115年度的中央政府總預算今年度的總預算到現在還沒有審查這個依法他是要在去年12月31號之前就要審查完均但到現在還沒有審查那還沒有審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3785.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3788.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們現在就是怎麼辦就按照預算法第54條 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3789.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3817.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
沒錯就是去年的執行數我們今年繼續執行可是我們去年的執行數因為去年的預算的三減後來雖然經過大院給予追加減預算及動用第二預備金但是整個業務費的執行數大概也佔全年的三成左右我現在要講就是這個啦你按照預算法第54條這個第一項第二款第二目你們能夠你們事實上現在因為預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3820.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3844.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個今年度的預算到現在還沒有審查所以所有的政府機關都必須按照預算法第54條也就是說你們只能按照上年度的基準去動之是上年度的基準而且這個這個除了以貨授權的原定計劃還要按照上年度的執行數對上年度執行數下去下去這個核實動之 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3848.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3876.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那其他行政機關到目前大家就雖然所有的新興計畫政府所有該做的一些新的新的一些建樹都沒有辦法動之外但是各個機關大家就按照這個預算法第54條這個按照去年的執行數來核實動之基本上維持政府的基本功能大致上還沒有問題但是我們監察院我就看你們的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3877.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3904.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
你們去 你們預算在去年的預算114年度的預算就被砍了 砍到剩下差不多三成是不是對 就是一開始砍剩下4%而已4%而已後來信貸大院有追加啦追加到最後補足的大概有三成左右一點本來預算審查的時候你們那是被砍96%啦對對對如果沒有追加點預算的話沒有追加預算的話你們要用這4%的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3905.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3923.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
維持去年一年,也就算了今年你們還要照這4%下去運作是這個意思,謝謝委員,演出這個重大問題後來增加之後你們大概差不多要三成了,30%啦30%你看你們該做的齁我看你們115年度你們所提出的預算是3億2400萬左右嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3930.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3947.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那但是你們按照這個預算法第五四條你們可以動資的剩下一億兩千一億零二萬是對不對三億變一億啊對只剩一億了一億多出頭而已這個吼這個包括你們的一般行政包括你們這個議事業務包括你們財產申報業務國家人權業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3951.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3979.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這些我還不談資本門喔就光經常門就幾乎是動彈不得了啦動彈不得其實這裡面也包含很多我們的同仁的工作上的需要譬如說電費啦等等這些環境的維護啊我現在一向這些喔有一些東西大家辛苦我都要去很辛苦啦你們那些水電也什麼都沒得運作那這個都還是歧視你們有一些真正嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3981.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3984.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
問題我今天就是要跟你談這些嚴重的問題第一個我們監察院我們按照這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3994.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4013.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
資通安全管理辦法按照資通安全管理辦法他授權的這個資通安全責任等級分級辦法我們監察院是是屬於什麼樣的機關哪一級的A級A級A級的嘛治安A級的機關為什麼我們監察院有什麼什麼重要我們的資訊安全的重要性在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4013.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4035.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
跟大院報告我們監察人在調查這些案件的時候例如許多案件牽扯到國家的重要機密包括國防機密以及國安機密在內所以最後這些機密資料都以機密的方式傳遞給我們之後我們也必須要保存在院裡面尤其許多也是在電腦系統裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4037.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4056.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這就有資安上面我們要維護如果沒有足夠的經費建立足夠的防火牆等相關的防護機制的時候在資安上面也會造成許多的不只是這些防火牆等等這些問題按照我這邊法規我秀出來了按照這個自動安全責任等級辦法第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4057.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4071.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
資通安全等級你們是A級A級是什麼第一個你剛剛講的涉及業務涉及國家機密這是剛剛講的包括很多有國防機密等等另外業務涉及全國性民眾服務及跨公務機關共用性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4074.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4095.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
的資通系統陳情人的個資再來就是個資陳情人公務員所有的個資都在你們電腦裡面我們監察院的資安是被列為A級就是全國最重要的但是不只你剛剛講的防火牆你按照這個資通安全等級辦法他第11條的這個附表 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4098.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4109.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
他有要求你們這些A級機關有很多事情要做啊不只是防火牆啊你們要必須要全部核心自動系統要導入CNS27001或者是ISO的27001 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4111.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4136.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你們必須要獲得這些軟硬體授權你們還必須做這個完成第三方驗證這是依法法定你們資通安全該做的事情委員非常專業這都是我們資安上面必須要去達標的但是這些都需要預算來協助同仁去建置起來那怎麼辦才有足夠的安全性我特別請我們的資安長來跟您回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4138.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4157.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
報告委員其實就是向委員所秀出來的我們是A級機關我們有這樣子的法定義務那去年因為都沒有任何的預算所以本來我們應該做ISO認證的去年就沒有處理所以去年就沒有做了沒有處理一年沒有做今年有辦法做嗎今年我們用我們就是因為有一點點的追加 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4160.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4174.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
所以我們用最佳的預算趕快今年再把它處理可以全部處理嗎我剛講認證第三棒認證這些授權今年我們要做一定要做不足你們這個齁這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4177.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4198.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們法律要求我們監察院我們的治安必須要做到最高等級但是我們立法院卻給你們最低幾乎是零預算了簡單講幾乎是不給你們這個自動安全的預算我們即使是依照去年的執行數三成可是我們每個月的動資數也是有限所以在這個部分我們還是明顯不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4200.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4227.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
其他政府機關大家省吃儉用大家就維持基本運作可以是因為沒有像你們監察院被砍到剩下三成你們這三成結果你們去年三成就已經已經幾乎無法營運了今年還要再維持這樣子的執行數資訊我講這個資訊安全另外這牽涉到我們所有所有我們監察院頭不管我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4228.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4240.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
在野黨立委怎麼樣看待監察院監察委員的職權但是我們監察院有這麼多的公務人員在監察院裡面上班有關於消防安全消防安全的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4243.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4268.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
對 我們這個消防設備已經大概是27年前的非常老 民國76年到將近60年的老舊 40年的老舊設備了所以這個設備本來是預計在去年要進行更新啦我看你們預算是4300萬被砍 被砍掉之後這個案子沒辦法做所以有時候就會產生一些消防上的疑慮這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4271.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4300.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
監察院非常特殊啦我們立法院你說中心大樓怎麼樣就算你們監察院還是古蹟啊是古蹟啊你們去年一年沒有經費維護這個古蹟一年兩年今年再按照去年的預算執行數還是沒有辦法維持這個古蹟再加上消防安全牽涉到所有在裡面工作的公務人員的這個性命安全結果我們立法院這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4302.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4326.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這樣子在虐待我們這些在現場上班公務人員真的要請大院在預算上面來體恤到我們在現場工作的所有同仁他的業務上的需要 他的環境安全衛生的需要這種辦公環境的安全 消防的防護 基本設施的維護更遑論你們是個古蹟 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4328.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4338.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這種公共安全的需求它是有即時性的而且如果一發生任何的意外我們監察院真的是會非常的遺憾這個剛剛講資安消防這個都是你們監察院的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4347.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4353.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
秘書長,今年是選舉,去年有沒有選舉?去年沒有選舉今年是選舉年啊,選舉年你們多了多少業務?政治獻金還有所謂財產申報相關的業務按照政治獻金法你們就是受理政治獻金申報的機關啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4369.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4374.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
沒有選舉你們就沒有這個業務但是今年是選舉年按照過去的選舉我調了107年107年這個政治現金專戶就有2305戶111年有2306戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4390.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4415.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們今年大概會有一萬多個候選人預估啦一萬多個候選人對 一萬多個候選人 每個人都要但是你們只能按照去年的預算來執行去年有這條預算嗎都砍掉了那怎麼辦 我們的這些政治獻金大家就可以隨便報在這裡先預告所有的候選人今年監察院沒有預算可以審大家的政治獻金了大家隨便報也不會像柯文哲這種下場啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4416.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4434.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
是這樣嗎我們還是會盡力去維護但是要真的請大院給予支持讓這筆預算能夠通過讓我們能夠在今年年底大選的時候政治現金相關的審查能夠落實再加上還有就是所有公職人員的財產申報能夠落實那當然這就是屬於候選人以及公職人的權利在這裡利用這個機會因為我們監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4445.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4458.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
要來這個立法院列席的機會並不多所以我今天利用這個機會我也是希望說我們委員會大家所有不分黨派的委員大家可以理解這不是你們政治立場上面你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4459.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4480.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
你們對憲政機關有什麼意見而是這裡面我剛剛所講的這些資訊安全這些消防安全甚至今年選舉年有關政治獻金跟這個財產申報的這些相關事務今年選舉年去年的預算去年就算預算完成百分之百通過今年還是要多這些業務結果現在只能動用預算的30% |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4487.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4501.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以我是在這裡成人也讓社會大家了解目前今年入的中央政府總預算到現在還不審查到現在還不審查連協商都不協商它所造成的後果 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4503.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4526.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所造成的後果我們在監察院上面看得最最最清楚啦他對國家安全對於對於這個國家資訊安全對於這整個選舉的這些這些陽光法案的執行他的影響之大在這裡希望齁我們本委員會的委員齁大家能夠有共同有所提認啦齁大家黨派立場不同沒關係一切以國家為重啦齁謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4530.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4535.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們有請林沛翔委員發言好 謝謝主席有請黃秘書長有請黃秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4553.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4564.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
今天本席想用一個法學上很嚴肅但是其實很生活化的問題來開場當一個機關人民不相信他的時候權力還剩下多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4566.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4591.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
監察院身為我們國家最高的監察機關依照憲政設計負責糾舉彈劾違法失職的公務員並保障人民的權益這些職權在制度裡面都寫得很漂亮但是我想請問一個最根本的問題請問黃秘書長是否認同監察權最重要的基礎不是權力本身而是人民的信任當然 我認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4593.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4614.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
因為其實這不是哲學問題這是一個憲法實踐的問題沒有信任再完整的制度也只是紙上談兵那接下來我想問第二個問題而且可能會稍微比較務實比較尖銳一點監察院我們認證是一個事實就是為什麼現在社會對監察院的信任正在快速的流失呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4616.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4636.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個部分我跟委員有不同的意見就是所謂的信證的流失我們從我們的監察院的陳情數字來看事實上去年大概也是八萬兩千多件的數字一整屆卻不是去年上一屆第五屆但目前為止本院人民的陳情的案件已經高達八萬六千多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4637.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4656.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
預計這一屆結實的時候會飆到十萬件也就是說人民對監察院還是有所期待的等一下我們會談到說監察院這方面有關建樹的問題但是老實說現在目前社會的觀感上面很直接該查的不查不該查最查的很勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4657.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4673.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這句話雖然不中聽但是如果我們不去面對它就會一直存在講更白話一點這其實就是一個法律的問題檢察院有沒有選擇性行使監察權的疑慮舉一個具體的案例來請教好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4673.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4695.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我記得如果沒有錯的話應該是前年的4月24號吧針對侯友宜市長35年前的舊案羅易事案重新被啟動調查甚至要求本人到監察院說明那我也想從最基本的法律結構上面來說起第一侯市長在當年的案件中是不是專案負責人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4696.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4717.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
第二他是不是這個案件裡面的決策者呢如果兩者皆非那麼請問他在法律他在案中的法律地位是什麼是違法失職的行為人還是僅僅是關係人委員這個畢竟是個案我是不是請我們施議委員會主任秘書來跟您說目前這個案子過了剛好快兩年那這個其實也蠻明確的如果只是關係人 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4725.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4745.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那監察院動用調查權要求到場說明秘書長還有各位我們監察院所有的所有的同仁們我們都知道公務人員四大法則合法合理必要比例原則那我就想請問這個案子請侯友宜市長到監察院說明請問他的必要性跟比例原則在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4747.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4765.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我是不是請市議委員會的主秘來回答委員的問題讓我繼續講完好了因為這個案子我那時候看的時候覺得有點不好意思身為立法委員覺得有點匪夷所思跟您插嘴不好意思那更有就是檢察委員曾經表示這個調查不追究個人責任只是為了還原事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4767.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4783.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
聽到這句話我本席身為一個國會議員其實我蠻困惑的因為我要請教的是監察院現在的法定職權到底是彈劾違法失職還是負責還原歷史那如果說後者我們要把監察院考慮成為歷史研究院 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4787.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4815.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那更關鍵的是在事實認定上面憲政分工上面本來就是所謂司法院的所屬的司法權核心那我必須在這邊請教秘書長跟我們監察院的長官監察院在這種進行這類不為彈劾只為還原的調查時是否已經在邊界上跟司法權產生衝疊我們這個先就個案跟您說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4817.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4842.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
報告委員 這個案子是羅毅市向本院提出陳情羅毅市是加拿大的台籍人士他針對當時入出國移民法的時候他遭到非法逮捕的一個案子那其中他指稱侯友宜當時作為中山分局的刑事組組長是有問題所以在程序上我們不需要 那我想請問 還是回到剛剛的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4844.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4870.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
請問侯友宜是這個專案的負責人嗎請問侯友宜是當時的決策者嗎當初針對羅毅士先生的逮捕是侯友宜一手去設法規辦的嗎如果不是那他是關係人吧那關係人就必須要監察院受到監察委員的調查那我實在有點害怕因為甚至說未來各位所有的人只要有人舉報只要監察委員覺得可以那請來監察院說明請問一下這是為了還人還為了彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4874.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4898.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好 謝謝 我想這個案我們已經討論到這邊了那我想請講那我是不是就那個委員提到說我們有沒有跟司法權這個邊界清不清楚根據大法官會議解釋監察權監察院本身就是一個准司法的機關所以難怪會委員會有那樣的疑問說那我跟司法權是不是有涉事實上我們在准司法的過程當然有 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4899.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4923.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
第一個我們會運用司法的程序所以在過程都要獨立啦等等這些都是司法的程序來進行第二個在司法權上面我們等於是司法權的先行的一個機關所以才會有譬如說我們談判之後就會所以兩邊的確有一點overlap對吧這兩個字是有overlap對吧不能叫我們其實那個邊界還蠻清晰只是我們叫做準司法的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4925.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4944.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個325號大法官會議解釋我想繼續提另外一個剛剛您提到一個很有趣的問題就是今年的這個人民陳情案件會超過十萬件那我想請問一下每年大概多少那我想請問一下不是今年我們這一屆這一屆十萬上一屆大概是八萬二上一屆整屆大概是八萬二那這一屆我們預估會應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4947.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4955.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以一年兩萬件嘛對不對那我想請問一下每一年受理的差不多兩萬一千件左右嘛那想請問其中真正啟動調查的比例是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4962.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4980.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
跟委員說明我們的任期是六年所以每年大概是一萬五到一萬八左右那每年調查多少屆除了那個調查案我們六屆到現在為止是1564案那可是因為這一屆我們有監察法第30條的委託調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4982.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4996.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那這個委託調查其實也是一種調查的方式請暫停一下不管是委託調查還是直接你說的1564件也好比例差不多十分之一我在說明一下那個委託調查的件數大概我們現在目前統計到3月底是3809件 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5000.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5022.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以加起來應該是大概是百分之如果說真的那種派查案的比例我說一千五百多的大概百分之二這個百分之二的派查率跟所有的國際上的國際監察組織比起來是一個合理正常而且不定的組織既然不是每一案都查那請問你們的選案標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5024.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5036.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我具體請教三點第一個有沒有明確的篩選標準第二個這個標準有沒有對外公開過第三個還是實務上由個別監察委員自行判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5038.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5066.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我說明一下就是監察院有一個監察院的立案派查原則他在立案派查原則第三點有條列是出實款有說哪些案子是應該比如說有重大的違法失職比如說是有機關的維持等等的就是跟扣合監察職權我們有一個立案派查原則他是一個法規你現在已經回了我就覺得很疑惑那如果回到2024年4月24號侯友宜的案子請問是屬於哪一項啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5070.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5087.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我現在講的是說全國民眾對這件事情甚至有時候法學界對這件事情有些疑慮的地方那如果沒有清楚一致可預測的標準是不是說裁量權是否過度擴張而缺乏外部監督呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5091.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5118.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那甚至從人民的角度看更簡單了為什麼有些案件剛剛講說一年差不多一萬八嘛一萬五到一萬八嘛那每年去受審的差不多多少十趴還是五趴每年的案件你們現在列案的案件加起來如果每年這樣的話每年一萬五千件一半八千件那等於說每年平均分擔的話那個受審率是多少受審率的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5118.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5142.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是說你們現在正式成立案要去調查的案子我們畢竟是來講監察院的功能我們不是來講數學那從人民的角度看起來那更簡單啦為什麼有些案件曾經多年沒有下文那為什麼有些案件甚至幾十年前的舊案卻可以重新啟動而且動作還很快這樣的差異請問是基於客觀標準還是主觀選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5150.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5164.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
報告委員我們都是基於陳情人所提的證據有沒有對於案件事實加以聲明來決定立法與否所以基本上採用證據法則如果人民陳情的空犯那我們沒辦法立案謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5166.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5187.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以老實說問題從來都不是監察院有沒有在做事而是是不是用同一把尺來做事人民其實要求的不高他們在意的是我的案子有沒有被查到他們在意的是同樣的事情是不是用同樣的標準來對待如果監察院沒有辦法讓人民相信兩件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5188.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5215.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
監察院的行使權是政治中立的調查標準是前後一致可受檢驗的那我們今天問題就不是只有個案爭議而是整個制度性正當性的動搖最後面我想回到一個最基本的這個建設性的問題做總結監察院是否已經提出還是即將提出具體的改革方案來回應當前的信任危機呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5220.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5239.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
跟委員說明其實監察院每一年在法規上面都有要求要做年度的檢討所以我們每一年的檢討會對於這年度的狀況做檢討也會對未來做一些提示有沒有考慮建立所謂公開透明的案件篩選機制呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5242.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5263.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
是 那剛剛因為我有說明我們有一個立案派查原則它就是一個準則那優先順序的客標指關呢是 那原則上我們每一件人民陳情案件都會依法處理就絕對不會把它吃案那是否先查院應該本身開始強化對監察委員裁量權的內部跟外部監督呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5265.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5284.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
跟委員說明這個委員立案其實還是有一定的行政程序那委員提出調查報告也有委員會的審查程序所以雖然監察委員是依據法律然後依據法律超越黨派獨立行使職權可是還是有一些審查的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5287.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5310.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
監察院的價值是在於監督權力但是當人民已經開始監督監察院的時候代表的絕對不是民主跟進步代表是警訊已經響起我期待監察院能夠用制度來回應質疑而不是用個案來解釋個案讓監察權回到它應有的位置不是讓人懷疑的權力而是讓人安心的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5311.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5334.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們的準司法的制度當然一定就是秉持的立法的原則啦其實我們很多的相關的管制也是從立法原則而來例如說我們必須要行政中立獨立於黨派這當然就是從這個原則我們來進行在進行的過程我們也時時刻刻我看到所有的監委都兢兢業業在做這件事所有的同仁也依據這些原則在進行之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5335.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5356.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以我這樣大院真的可以放心我們的監察院真的有努力把行政中立等這個原則做到最好這樣子跟秘書長分享一下目前不是本席覺得現在我們監察院是有疑問的而是普遍人民對監察院都沒有什麼信心以上 謝謝謝謝您的指教 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5362.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5364.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
接下來我們請范雲委員發言有請黃秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5386.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5412.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
女士長早安今天主要是要跟您請教兒童監察室這個部分我想我要先肯定監察院調查兒女跟校園性平事件有非常多的突破跟貢獻你們相關的報告我都有加以閱讀也讓我在質詢相關部會的缺失的時候有了一個可以改善的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5413.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5436.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那這兩樣譬如說戲曲學院的性侵案還有台大的涉姦性平安那監察院在這方面的貢獻可以說是可圈可點那但是我想我也非常憂慮因為新聞還有我們在立法院有看到你們的114年度的預算案業務費招商96% |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5438.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5456.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那你們沒有辦法好好的行使職權那後來我有看到你們提出的釋憲案那我想這方面不知道人權會就國家人權的委員會的執行的效能是不是受到限制因為我看到最近兩公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5457.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5471.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
國際審查委員連他們都關注了預算的問題那這是他們提交的問題清單是2025年12月提出的那不曉得人權會的執行效能有沒有受到限制如果有受到限制是哪方面的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5472.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5489.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我首先先謝謝委員關心這個話題這話題對監察院的影響非常巨大那當然我首先以這個概括性的來向委員報告我們確實整個院當然包括國家人權委員會的職權的行使受到非常非常大的限制因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5490.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5517.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
真的太多我們對於包括您來關心剛才提示關心的兒少的問題以及我們許多的報告等等這些都受到了衝擊那相關的細節我是不是請國家人權委員會執行秘書來跟你報告受到哪些衝擊那可以因為時間有限可以30秒內告訴我嗎因為我知道我們總預算未審那也會使得你們的預算必須要比照去年那可以一併講嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5518.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5539.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 30秒好 謝謝委員關切這個議題那我快速報告一下就是目前我們今年度要辦理的業務裡面比方說像兩公約還有CDO以及CRPD的國際審查那在這部分我們有撰寫了獨立評估意見可是呢過去我們這些獨立評估意見它可以把它再轉譯成一些比方說簡易版然後易讀版 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5540.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5558.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
然後以及就是點字版這一類的那可是現在都沒有辦法所以其實它會影響一些身心障礙者的他的在了解這些議題上面的一個權利對那第二就是我們其實今年有通過一個調查案是要針對身心障礙者的搭乘大眾預輸工具上面一個受到歧視這樣一個調查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5561.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5582.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
可是因為目前沒有預算所以目前是暫緩執行那此外就是像今年的3月31號到4月2號是全球的國家人權機構聯盟的一個會議那雖然我們不是聯合國的會員但是其實它每一次都會有一些side event是我們可以參與的但是因為今年也沒有這些經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5583.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5598.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以目前都是暫停那這幾個其實就是目前我們現在很明顯面臨的那接下來就是要面對CRC的國際公約的審查所以其實這部分在召開專家諮詢等等的上面其實目前都會有一些困難可能都必須要透過視訊等方式來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5600.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5625.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
了解 至少我聽到的就是我補充一句話剛才執密所報告這些內容都是由大院所通過的國家人權委員會的組織法所訂定的法定職權所以法定職權我們真的受到重大的衝擊因此沒有辦法把大院所列的這些法定職權非常順利的來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5627.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5641.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那我聽到的就是預算業務費遭刪96%然後加上今年的總預算至今未審所以你們必須要依照去年至少已經使得身心障礙的權益受傷也使得兒童權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5642.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5670.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
相關公約的國際交流沒辦法像原本期待的方式進行那我真的是覺得非常的遺憾那也希望今天下午我們有政黨協商那總預算的部分至少能夠順利復違那延續我剛剛關心的兒虐跟校士的兒童權益的問題我想這邊秘書長你有看到這幾年兒童權益真的是不斷的有事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5671.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5687.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
包含今年就有台中國小棒球教練的性侵案兩年前也有南投前國小校長的性侵案之前還有資優班的老師性侵案然後更早還有南投的兒少安置機構性侵案 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5688.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5708.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這些都還是發生在國家的機構因為學校都是公立的學校安置機構也都有得到相關的部會的支持跟管理那我有個看法是不是能夠設立獨立的兒童監督單位那這部分想要請教就是監察院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5709.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5726.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
因為我看到CRC國家報告的國際審查意見中其中有提到第15項委員會建議應該盡速依照聯合國兒童權利委員會第二號一般性意見成立國家人權機構這個你們已經有了並內涉監督兒童權利的專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5731.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5755.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
或是成立兒童監察使辦公室或者是設置兒童權利委員所以國際審查委員的意見覺得你們裡面可以設置兒童權利的專責機構或者是兒童監察使那我們立法院也早就10年12年前就通過了兒童權利公約那2002年CRC委員會就有這個意見了兒童監察使 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5757.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5773.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我想再給您看各國的例子我這邊有列出的挪威是全球第一個有這個做法的是1981年瑞典1993年也有兒童監察史還有專法波蘭也有專法愛爾蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5776.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5798.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
也是有專法有兒童監察使他不只是監督還有做政策建議社會教育日本則有地方層級的韓國有中央到地方層級的推動我看到你們今天有提到希望本院能夠審查你們相關的法規所以我想請教就是說有沒有可能你們來評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5799.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5822.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
在兒童監察室方面放在監察院裡面的可行性也能夠符合CRC的人權規範因為現在很多的師生不管是霸凌或者是性侵爭議都沒有第三方的調查那還是在學校裡頭能不能有獨立的第三方兒童權益的監察專責機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5824.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5844.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
能夠專門監察兒童權利的落實情況那也能夠支持符合國際兒童公約的兒童表意等權利呢那你們有沒有可能去做一個評估剛才針對委員剛才的質詢裡面有分兩個層次我是以這兩個層次來回答第一個層次是說針對目前台灣的制度上面的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5845.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5868.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
第一個我們在2021年到2025年之間我們也總共監察院完成了112件關於兒少人權的調查報告總共112件裡面我大概的通篇重點就是說只在我們政府要加強的地方往往就是所謂的通報機制相關的建立要完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5868.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5885.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這是第一個第二個法制上面回到你們的制度面好不好法制上面剛才委員一直呼籲要成立的所謂的這個兒童監察室這樣的一個概念因為這是涉及到整體的制度性的改變跟修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5886.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5911.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那其實相關的功能其實我們國家人權委員會已經把它都全部都負擔起來了那未來如果要成立專責的以兒童為目標的這樣子一個監察室或相關的機關構的這樣的概念的時候試射到法治是不是容我們回去我們的內部必須要再做更進一步的研討才有辦法對委員做正式的一個說明等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5912.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5933.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為我看到的資料你們過去有評估過那但是兒童權益的被傷害的情況這幾年跟你們當年評估的情況已經不可同日而語那尤其是少子化那其實大家特別的重視兒童權益那我們在國際兒童公約的一個對話上也比過去更精進所以是不是能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5933.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5952.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
您的目標絕對是我們大家共同的目標我們一定會朝著這個目標來做只是在法制上面容我們有一個去延期延商的空間謝謝您願意回去延商評估那是不是可以一個月可以給本席相關的報告還是時間太短也可以再延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5957.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5968.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
因為這個涉及到制度跟法規所以我們可能需要稍微長一點的時間是不是給本院三個月的時間三個月的時間喔三個月 兩個月好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5969.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5994.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
兩個月跟委員報告這真的是因為我們現在有國家人權委員會他本身在做那在這個體制下要怎麼樣這個兒童監察室怎麼樣去融合跟全國的行政機關之間這到底有一個有一個五院的分權等等的問題在內當然就是說我們立委都比較希望能夠更快有結果你們兩個月就是就算沒有結論也可以先給我一個報告好不好可以可以謝謝委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5997.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6015.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好謝謝范園委員接下來我們請鍾瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭緯有請我們監察院黃秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6019.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6046.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好 請黃秘書長秘書長好有幾個問題我想來就教監察院你現在來看的話是很尷尬的一個機關不管是立法院或者是外界其實很多人也認為說那監察院一個國家裡面的一個制度何去何從該把監察院把它給廢掉大家覺得是一個盲腸的一個機關就這些話聽在秘書長你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6050.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6076.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你會不會覺得有點感觸請教你的看法我沒有感觸我只是覺得監察權絕對要繼續進行下去只是說他過去大家在討論的議題應該是說這個權利應該獨立成一個監察院還是回歸到立法院其實世界各國只要是三權分立大部分的監察權是附屬在立法院也就是說委員您質詢完之後發現有重大的問題以後進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6078.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6095.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
甚至可以提出相關例如彈劾等等的懲戒然後再送到懲戒法院去進行司法的訴訟如果有失職或是違法的公務人員予以免職、停職、降級、減俸等相關的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6100.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6120.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個是應該一整套的配套秘書長你提的是另外一個層次的問題但是本席在問的就是說其實在國會裡面各個政黨其實都是主張把建財用給廢掉可是大家的看法怎麼樣去廢那大家的看法有所不同民主進步黨我相信連秘書長你過去的一個主張也認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6121.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6136.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那就修憲嘛就來修憲我們當然是尊重完全尊重修憲的結論那當然所以廢建財運的進度裡面可是你現在又碰到一個問題就尷尬了建財運現在29個第六屆好像是不足現在是26 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6139.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6163.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
二十五 法定是二十九嘛那你現在二十五位那第六屆就到今年的七月底就結束了就全部都離任了接下來要另外全部的人要另一波新的提名嘛那如果假設總統來提名那你這個國民黨主張他就認為這個全部都不要人就不用再補了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6163.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6183.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那台灣民眾黨他們立場也很清楚各個政黨其實都很清楚但主張會有所不同那結果好來了會產生一個狀況監察院這一屆7月31號全部結束以後你說5月份開始提名那送到立法院來那以現在的政治局勢來看的話通殺啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6184.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6211.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
就是還不會過關啦那不會過關問題來了你去把他看為什麼說你們尷尬呢立法院就把你預算全部砍光光說那監察院那盲腸那不好那吃完米的聽起來我的意思是說你這樣會有一個感觸但是你去把他看這個在野黨其實把預算砍光光說是一個盲腸機關轉過頭來你看他又跑到你們那邊去啦說這個卓院長喔卓榮泰不附屬喔已請監察院來彈劾要很看重你們喔所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6212.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6223.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
老百姓其實我一直認為監察院還是一個老百姓深淵的一個地方還是有這樣的一個功能可是碰到國內在政治鬥爭的時候監察院你就變成尚方寶劍如果要去背革的孫子 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6230.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6257.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以我是覺得說這個感觸我是指這一方面但是司法院大法官的一個釋字的632號的一個解釋裡面也確實確保整個監察院的實質的一個存續跟正常的一個運行他認為是憲法憲政機關責無旁貸的一個職責除非你去走修憲的一個路可是我有幾個問題要請教就是說如果現在都沒有任何配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6258.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6262.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
把它廢掉了以後 實質上讓它停擺啦都不會通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6264.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6285.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那個停擺造成的損害秘書長你有要向社會做一個說明嗎譬如說我很擔心就是你這個國家人權委員會那你也是在監察院現在的一個所在那如果說監委沒有辦法繼續來順利的一個任命的話那你現在對我國所推動的各項的人權調查國際人權公約這樣的衝擊會有什麼樣的一個打擊請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6291.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6309.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
如果依照現在比如說委員不通過或是類似像預算三零這反而是一種廢監察權我們剛才一直在講到說外界說要廢監察院可是你如果沒有委員沒有預算是不是真正的權利的行使反而就不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6309.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6329.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那不見的情況之下他傷害的反而是我們要協助的人民我們第一屆有十萬個陳情這十萬個陳情需要監察院來替他們找出行政機關的問題甚至有些是弊案來解決問題懲罰這些公務人員也就是說整治關真 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6331.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6352.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有些在國家人權委員會他有許多人權上面要去維護的地方因為沒有錢沒有委員反而任何的行政處分我們都不能進行在這種情況之下反而是廢了監察權他不是廢院沒有錯但是廢了權讓整個權都沒有辦法執行的時候反而不是人民的福氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6361.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6386.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
也有一些問題啊監察院自己本身啊你有沒有覺得看錯的地方啊你像譬如說啊公視針對第五屆跟第七屆公視董事的延宕監察院應該兩天去跟他們糾正文化部啊對不對文化部也是要理你啊問題到現在也沒有真正解決啊上個禮拜四你看那個董監董監事的這個審查委員會的八名審查委員現在人家聯名跟立法院院長跟他說我們請辭喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6388.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6408.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你去把它看這種情況啊你看從第五屆的董事由第四屆延任長達968天第七屆董事第六屆延任嘛高霸歸綱審查委員的消極資格條件同意權門檻的計算方式是否採記名投票是否可以委託代理審查委員由誰來召開是立法院還是文化部 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6409.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6425.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這都長期失靈了,你去跟他說,他也不會理你,你給他糾正喔所以說,監察院對這種以糾正,他不甩你沒有去改善的機關,現在大家在跟你們說,你給他糾正也不好,你們有補嗎?還是你們只能顛倒為止而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6430.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6444.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
其實我們這兩個兩次的這個所謂的那個任命的狀況我們都有糾正案那糾正案甚至到現在我們都還是在追蹤行政機關要切實的改善這問題那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6446.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6470.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
是不是法治相關的問題就必須要行政機關他來面對讓這個問題能夠解決包括我們監察院現在假設沒有權沒有人沒有委員的時候當然也會產生類似的狀況所以我們也期待在未來在這個監察職權的行使上面能夠讓我們能夠為著針對人民的需要來進行監察權的行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6470.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6497.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個都不忍苛責啦 因為以現在的政治氣氛來看的話監察院並不是一個強勢的一個機關啦所以啊 就像秘書長所講的整個監察權的一個形式啊 就會產生這麼大的一個落差我現在 以前的監察院就不是這樣耶以前的監察院你真的殺給他 嚇嚇他 打下去 把他打下去結果你把他打下去了 不會理你我再舉一個例子啊 你跟台大 拆文資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6500.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6518.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個起源地 我們監察院的調查的一個作為你看看過去三年 因為都更改革開發的推進溫州街那個地方 我看很多台大老師都住那個地方五十二巷 日式公寓 那個宿舍啊反覆在一再上演 叫一間 又聽一間這種抗爭的行動那我們眼睜睜的去看著兩位對台灣學術跟文資界 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6525.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6546.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有奠基貢獻的領袖文資法的支付大家講的就是陳其祿跟台灣島史觀海洋性格提出的提出者曹永和兩個人在溫州街的故居你看這照片2024年跟2025年相繼被宣告不具文資價值在四個月內火速拆除 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6547.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6563.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
引起文史團體的不滿那也促使監察院去決議調查 釐清我是覺得這個都非常諷刺就是說呢這個對台灣文化歷史記憶的一個刪除然後也意味著對文資保存意識的一個退步那 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6564.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6590.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個都是過去文資的一個推動者他本席的意思就是說如果任由這種具備高度歷史精神指標的建物被系統性的拆除那你怎麼去面對過去在艱難環境下保護台灣文化的這些前輩我為什麼會提出這樣的一個問題就是說監察院針對此案我覺得可以更強力的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6592.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6609.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
老闆你看台大不知道要怎麼去批評你知道嗎台大現在校方坐擁369棟50年以上的建物其中具備文資身份者68棟未具文資身份者301棟 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6611.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6629.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個你們也跟我說你們責任保存的責任重大你們現在都消極維護積極去拆除你們跟他下這個很好玩你跟他說他們都是消極維護但是很積極在拆除那也就是說台大他本身的想法就很簡單我都沒有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6631.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6652.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
監察院你跟他說有啦 你有兩百個校務基金啦但是他投入這些錢 投入文資的維護的經費這百分之零點三 這你如果講得很清楚但重點就是說 本席的看法就是說校方還是一樣把監察院看衰無視監察院調查的意見 甚至以安全為由火速拆除 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6653.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6663.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這種有歷史文化意義的故居實在都是應該好好去檢討的一個必要監察院後續你們還有什麼手段嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6665.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6690.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
因為您提到的這個案子還在整個調查中還在整個追蹤中所以還沒有結案在沒有結案的時候因為秘書長在這邊依照法令的限制我們沒辦法針對還沒有結案的個案來跟您做說明但是我們監察院的委員以及進行調查的協查的同仁一定會基於公平正義的原則把這個案子好好辦下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6691.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6719.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這就是在說一個社會到底是否願意為整個記憶來承擔成本那其實文化保存最常被誤解的地方就是它常常說好像是這一些保存者看中這些文化資產的人是反對改變但是真正的保存它倒不是拒絕未來而是拒絕只有一種的未來所以文化保存 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6720.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6747.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
太重要了本時提這個只有一個一個關鍵就是認為說監察院其實雖然現在得到人質同意權得到立法院給你們看衰得到國政黨給你們看衰但是就像秘書長你所講的你這個監察權的一個行使裡面該去把它發揮到對強度尤其是公視這個尤其是台大這個你如果沒有一個強勢的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6748.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6759.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
你談這個監察權慢慢不是只有消滅在這段期間裡面你會發現你毫無作為是對不起這個社會的喔好不好是 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6765.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6782.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
接下来我这里先做一个会议程序的预告那么稍后在林倩琪委员询答完毕之后我们就休息五分钟那接下来我们有请张亚琳委员发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6792.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6808.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
謝謝主席 我們有請祕書長好 祕書長好 祕書長好我想今天我想要跟祕書長來討論有關於台中教練性侵的這個事件希望這個監察院來針對這些事件來做一些調查就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6809.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6825.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個其實在去年3月我就開始關心教育部啦那教育部其實也有去關心台中市政府啦但是我想大家從最近的新聞可以看見這個棒球教練松信教練呢他其實已經這個受害者已經突破了這個53名 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6828.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6847.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
還是80名這個數字現在好像教育局跟新聞報導掌握的是完全不一樣的那其實後來在上個禮拜也可以看到就是說台中市政府其實也並沒有懲處這個教育局所以這件事情凸顯的是什麼是我們雖然有一些制度但是現場的執行是失靈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6848.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6873.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那這件事件呢佳恆誇了非常的多年那也不是個別的一個犯罪問題啦因為其實我們從過去呢我自己這邊也關注了許多有關於這些兒少性侵的這些案件之後呢我們不管是新竹縣啦花蓮縣啦或是今天早上最新的新聞是在台北在北部的這個某個競技學校也有類似的這樣子的狀況那所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6874.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6883.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我認為在我們在教練的聘任查衡到日常的監督機制其實都沒有發揮應該有的一個作用那我也非常高興可以看到我們監察院的慧龍監委其實已經申請自動調查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6886.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6907.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
但是呢我是在想請問因為這個東西並不是只是這個案件它其實是一個跨縣市一個結構性的問題我們是不是可以針對體育班的部分來做一個更完整的這個調查呢不然如果我們只有處理這個個案的話接下來很有可能還是會有下一個悲劇發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6908.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6920.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個如果委員您提到的是台中這個個案因為基於法令的限制我沒辦法在這邊針對這個個案跟您我不是要查個案我要查這頂預班整個機制的話我們跟您報告關於這個運動教練狼屍的類似的案件我們整個第六屆監委 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6929.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6947.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
已經有提出六件調查報告而且有五件通過糾正那其實這個糾正的過程統合整個脈絡簡單的回答也就是說我們已經具體的要求行政機關是在哪裡呢就是整個通報機制的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6948.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6974.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這整個通報機制我們要求行政機關一定要做改善不論通報機制是在設置教練仲裁或紀律委員會建立同儕通報以外呢還有對於不適任運動教練的通報以及地方查驗代理教師的資料將不適任教師列入教練列入通報我這樣聽起來其實是我了解我們現在有些這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6975.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6991.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
當時有提出一些這樣的報告的確有一些在執行但我想要針對的是體育班這樣子的一個機制裡面是不是為什麼他們更容易就是這樣子的重大事件層出不朽我們是不是可以針對體育班的一個這樣子的性侵的案件做一個系統性統整性的一個調查呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6993.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7012.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個案子我們就針對這個體育班正在調查中不僅是體育班的這個制度不是只有台中市我知道這個制度上面透過這個個案我們會看得更清楚好謝謝那再繼續講就是說因為剛剛其實秘書長也有提到說我們提出了一些不適任教練應該要如何的去查詢可是實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7013.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7024.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那個 秘書長我請你看一下這一個公告齁這是主協的公告請問一下我是一個家長我看到這個不適應教練之後我要知道他是誰嗎我要如何知道他是誰是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7026.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7054.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
江圈圈黃圈圈涉性侵兒少事件我家長看到這個我要怎麼知道這個到底是誰我們根本無從得知我們現在的這個公告機制是沒有辦法讓家長安心的等於是說家長在把小孩送去不管是做俱樂部的訓練也好或是送去學校也好他根本是瞎子摸象完全不知道他到底送進去是培育孩子發展天賦的金牌教練還是是摧毀孩子夢想的狼狽教練 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7055.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7079.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以我想這個是一個很大的問題我們也一直在跟去年就一直在跟運動部在溝通這件事情當時是教育部的體育署就一直在溝通可是他們就告訴我們說因為礙於各自法的規範還要保障這些教練的工作權所以在沒有任何法規授權的機制之下他們只能夠維持用這種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7080.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7108.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
來進行那我想這件事情我跟人本其實已經主張了至少超過一年那希望說是不是監察院也可以針對這樣子的一個處置方式來進行調查或是糾正呢我們會把委員您的質詢待會去給監委請他們來參考這個意見在未來辦理相關意見這個案類似的案件的時候還有對於政府的相關的監督的時候能夠善加 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7109.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7134.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我想就針對就是說因為其實在衛福部或是教育部他們都有相關的不是任人才的一個資料庫好那但是這個在運動部裡面呢我們現在是一直沒有辦法處理到有關於不是任教練公告的這件事情那這是相對於其他部會是稍微我覺得有點瀆職啦所以是不是可以進行相關的調查跟糾正啦我們一起來推動教育運動部來做這件事情好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7137.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7156.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那再來還有另外一個事件也是說我們剛剛講不適任教練可是我們剛剛雖然有各個系統的去把他建置起來這些不適任人才資料庫但是其實他們還是一直的轉漏洞因為光我們自己不停的處理從教育部去鎖他從運動部去鎖他這些人後來留下了地下經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7158.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7171.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
流向了地下經濟等於是說他自己開了一個工作室沒有登記我們根本查不到這個人可是這個人還是持續的在接觸我們的孩子所以其實我去年就一直在主張要建立兒少工作證的制度參考澳洲的一個規範來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7173.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7197.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為對於任何一個家長來說我們實在是沒有辦法去每次都要等於是說是在看抽獎抽到的是誰這樣子所以是不是可以在兒少工作證制度尚未完成立法之前呢我們可以針對目前的制度空窗提出一個具體的監督跟改善建議那還有這個針對跨部會的一個機制是否也可以有所掌握呢這部分是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7198.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7214.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這當然是行政機關的他相關的措施跟處分那我們會把委員的建議帶回去那在 尤其在人權委員會人權委員會這邊已經有處理我請人權委員會的執行秘書就相關人權委員會處理跟您說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7216.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7234.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
是謝謝委員好關心這個議題那我們呃其實在去年年底的時候我們有發布一個檢討校園失對聲暴力處理機制這一個專案報告那這個專案報告裡面我們呃最後面的建議裡面也有提到呃就是你剛剛說的有關這個兒少呃就是兒少相關的工作證的這樣一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7235.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7260.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
一個制度那我們也是傾向比較同意這樣的一個做法想說明 謝謝好 了解 謝謝好 那再來下一個題目其實是想要講我們的我先講一下這個預算的部分好了啦好不好因為我覺得這個我看到了監察院的預算整個不管在114年稅出預算規模是10.97億啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7263.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7290.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
人事費約佔8億 佔比極高但是原編列的業務費2億4273萬元被立法院審查三檢後高達96%只剩下1092%導致我們的一般行政調查其實根本都沒有辦法做甚至最重要的人權業務特別是接下來還要做CRC的國際審查這是非常的重要我也有聽到一些團體在講我不知道是不是真的說他們去參加監察 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7292.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7302.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
院的一些相關諮詢會議都沒有給出席費我不曉得這是真的還是假的這樣子已經落魄到這樣嗎因為這些都是專家學者我覺得他們的時間意見也都非常的寶貴那這是真的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7305.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7332.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
報告委員其實在去年我們預算最艱困的時候的確是沒有給出席費但是後續因為有追加預算也謝謝立法院後續有讓我們追加預算那我們後面是有再補回去那但是我們大部分一些案件我們就變成是要用視訊的方式因為沒有辦法支付交通費我們是給最低額的出席費就是兩千元所以是不含交通費那因此很多的會議就變成是要用視訊的方式來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7333.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7362.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
了解 那我覺得這個是希望所有的立法院都要聽到因為這些都是專家學者而他們的意見也都非常的寶貴而且他們的意見其實是督促了我們整個國家的制度上面的前進而是我們連一個出席費都沒有辦法給我覺得這是相對不尊重的一件事情所以我認為所有的委員在接下來要做115年的審查或是116年的審查都應該要去考量這一件事情不然我們就會是一直叫監察院做事像民眾黨一直叫藍白一直叫監察院做事我覺得你們也是啞巴吃黃蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7364.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7387.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那接下來還有一個更重要的部分就是在114年的3月18號我看到你們的新聞稿就是說你們積欠了伊甸基金會委外勞務清潔費用六位約用以及部分駐點人員失業造成弱勢家庭的經濟困擾及重傷其工作權益這件事情後續還有繼續聘任嗎報告委員我是請秘書處針對這個業務主管來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7391.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7398.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
報告委員您關心的問題其實在去年3月的時候醫店這一部分我們從原本的15位然後一下減成7位那這7位是單純的身心障礙人員因為這個臨時的狀況我想這些身心障礙家庭可能沒辦法承受 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7408.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7428.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那這部分少掉的八個人力其實對我們來說是非常的緊迫那這七位呢只能負責我們公共區域的勞務清潔那至於短缺的到目前為止都是監察院一個很大的要必須要去承受的變成我們所有的機工工友工作量非常的非常的大 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7431.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7449.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我們也造成一些弱勢家庭的經濟困擾這件事情到現在還是沒有解決那接下來我還想要請教一下那伊甸的部分我們有積欠他那時候我們從2月總共積欠了到7月整個追加預算通過我們總共積欠了100多萬那也是後續才逐步來償還 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7451.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7475.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那接下來我還有看到一個是跟人身安全有關係的那我看起來我會覺得這個好像有點影響到你們上班的安全性就是說我們無法依規定進行高低壓電器設備消防設備電器及飲水機還有建物的公共安全的檢查因為這畢竟是一個滿年久的一個建物我有點擔心這會不會影響到你們的工作安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7476.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7491.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
再來我也看到就是說沒有預算來修善辦公廳設跟機電設備也嚴重的影響你們的建物使用安全造成無障礙升降平台無法使用這個是真的嗎我是不是也請秘書處主管來跟您回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7493.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7509.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
包委員那您剛所提的這個部分確實都是存在也是真實的那尤其在機電方面不管是升降梯電梯還有高低壓飲水設備其實這是法規所規定的那這部分呢後來在七月追加預算的時候就法定的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7510.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7533.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
其實還有甚至有更多的稅金我們都是用欠款的方式那就是用欠款積欠的方式來度過那這一部分然後所以呢有關安全的部分我們在115年的預算裡面也編列了下去因為消防安全這一部分老舊已經將近40年了消防安全嗎這一部分涉及公共安全是我們比較擔憂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7534.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7562.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好我想剛剛您的回覆上面我們都可以非常清楚聽到就是說你們的建物安全人身安全公共工作安全其實都蠻嚴重危急蠻嚴重的我們必須要來關注那我想因為也希望社會大眾還有我們的立委們可以了解因為在裡面工作的每一個都是我們優秀的公務員也有可能是我們的朋友有可能是我們的兄弟姊妹親人等等的這些人的工作安全其實是非常需要去維護的特別是這也 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7563.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7582.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
違法就是我們有一個職安位嘛其實是有要去守護我們在勞工從事工作的一個工作安全所以我在想我做一個結論就是說在憲法六十三條裡面立法院有議決法律案預算案戒嚴案大赦案宣戰案等等其他重要事項之權利那 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7583.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7611.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們立法院有審查刪減凍結的權利但這個權利不該是無限擴充的對於機關的基本運作應該還是要有基本的維持而不是大筆一揮就忽略了這一些跟人身安全有關係的預算所以我希望說在今年的審查的時候大家都可以理性的務實的讓我們的監察院可以繼續的運作不要犧牲我們所有公務員的一個人身安全 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7632.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7642.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好 我們接下來請翁曉琳召委好 謝謝主席我們有請秘書長我們請監察院黃秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7649.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7664.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
黃秘書長好因為您先接任監察院的秘書長這份工作當然是不容易的不過今天因為是你們等於是您擔任秘書長然後第一次到監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7665.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7694.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
第一次到立法院來做立法計畫的報告那本席在這裡呢我想給監察院一些建議事實上因為本席現在擔任立法委員最近兩年也經過這個是第五個會期了但是我每個會期在看你們監察院的立法計畫坦白說大概就是薄薄的一千字左右而且每個會期的立法計畫都是一樣的幾乎內容是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7696.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7704.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那固然監察院自己主管的法規有限譬如說你們希望能夠檢討的陽光四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7708.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7733.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個不是屬於監察院的主管這個法律還有就是你們希望能夠這個通過的監察法的部分的條文修正草案那這個部分當然現在是存在立法院這裡喔那麼可是本席認為說你們是不是之後可以在你們的立法計畫裡面也可以稍微報告或者說說明你們監察院每一個年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7734.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7743.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
的這個大概你們事實上立法監察委員職權行使的狀況好的好的為什麼我要這麼說呢剛剛其實前面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7745.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7764.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
委員們也有提到就是我們看一下就是這一屆的監察委員職權行使的統計因為馬上這一屆的監察委員他們在7月31號任期屆滿所以我們如果回顧他們這5年多來的行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7765.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7782.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
監察權也就是他們辦案的一些狀況那這個部分我認為其實蠻重要的是應該要讓我們的民眾知道我們現在監察委員的他的整個工作他的這個任務的執行的狀況那麼這個部分因為你們沒有寫在 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7784.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7804.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你們的立法計畫裡面所以本席也有特別去看剛剛前面副秘書長也有說了就是還有秘書長這裡有講你們一直到今年的二月大概收受人民的書狀是將近八萬五千件左右那實際上派查的案件只有1683件 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7807.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7835.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
事實上派查率不到2%不到2%也就是說這5年多來將近6年的時間你們現在預估可能到7月底這一屆監察委員任期屆滿可能會突破9萬件或是10萬件可是看看你們的整個案件的派查率是非常的低等於是你們這6年多來可能最多就是處理大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7836.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7856.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
1700件左右的案子那麼其他的案子不是不處理或者是說不受理或者是可能就是用其他的方式去做那我想針對這樣子一個情況老百姓是失望的因為大家這個陳情的案件很多可是卻看到監察院沒有積極的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7858.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7883.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
就這個部分來說是不是秘書長可以回應跟文回報那關於數字的部分我是不是請我們的副秘書長因為他長期在監察院可以比較這幾屆的狀況跟你先說明那後續的我在以政策上面怎麼樣的問題我想剛剛其實王副秘書長其實也有說了就是你們認為說跟其他國家相比起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7883.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7908.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
不算是太差這樣子的一個辦案的效率不算太糟可是呢本期要談的是說我們現在監察委員有29位扣除院長跟副院長有27位監察委員辦案如果以你們這樣子的一個成績來看的話平均大概每個人一年只是辦10個案件而且呢我們也看到就是說這個事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7910.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7917.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
大家期待的大的大案件你們其實辦的很少或是可能很簡單的就處理掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7919.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7948.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那麼但是對於基層公務員的這個案件你們倒是處理的速度很快而且也相對來說也較多所以這也是難怪為什麼大家會質疑有關於監察院到底是不是真的能夠發揮誠心勵志的這樣的一個功能那麼本席是希望在下一屆的監察委員如果能夠順利任職的話希望能夠提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7948.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7969.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這個新任的監察委員們還是要重視人民的陳情案件因為我們就是說從歷史上看過來的話發現就是現在的這個辦案的這個派查率等等其實不是一個很好的一個績效的表現那麼我們希望說假設這個下一屆的監察委員能夠順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7971.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7995.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
到職的話順利來任職的話這個部分希望能夠強化可以辦理更多人民關係或眾所矚目的案子是不是容我把這個數字的部分來簡單的說明一下就是說整體來看我們第六屆的監委的相關的績效的表現跟第五屆並沒有什麼差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7997.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8012.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
但是事實上我們有幾個特色的地方就是說我們有一個委託調查的案件就是過去委託調查案件就是說這些就變成不是我們由我們監察院直接查我們要求他的主管機關上級等等直接調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8013.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8026.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
但是這個調查的部分真正被我們發現有問題最後平反了也將近有389件的相關案件而且我們今年還有一個我還有其他的問題要問因為我覺得這是一個大問題我也希望監察院可能之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8033.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8050.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
或是在之後有機會的話你們也可以把你們相關處理的情況然後再做個更詳細的報告是 謝謝委員好 那接下來本期要問的一個問題就是說一般的陳情案件從收受派案到立案調查或是不受理那監察院的標準作業時間大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8052.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8076.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我請副民署長跟您回應跟委員說明原則上我們收受人民署長行政院的話是20天我們是10天我們是有規定的是10天那10天之內我們在第一時間收到以後就會讓民眾知道說監察院收到了我們會用一個前端的編排所以你們10天之後就會開始分案開查 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8079.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8102.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
不一定會 報告委員 其實是 它是有一定的延期的一個過程那因為我們有個監察業務處 那裡面有好 那不管辦的情況如何 你們都會含附陳情人嗎是的那什麼時候會含附陳情人除非是說他 比如他是匿名 匿職 或者是他有一些對 所以大概會有什麼時間呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8103.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8131.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
原則上我們如果辦了有結果就會函付給陳情人可是呢其實跟委員附帶說明就是去年因為預算真的是被砍得非常的嚴重所以連油資就是季性也就是說你們其實現在就函付陳情人的這個速度沒有以前快就是了是不是基本上那現在本席要問的就是說我在去年12月23號的時候和幾位立法委員們我們一起針對卓榮泰 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8133.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8155.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
違法失職他不附屬不執行不編列預算的這個事情向監察院遞狀申請彈劾案的陳情案因為這個案子是涉及到憲法層次的問題他不執行預算不附屬這應該算是很嚴重的很明顯違反憲政爭議的重大事要請問現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8157.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8180.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
立法院 現在監察院針對這個案子你們的公文流程到哪裡了我們現在的流程到我們已經把這案子移給司法及預證委員會他們正在嚴處之中所以已經有立案了現在是提研究報告等於是對於整個這個憲政體制做一個相關的了解現在只是在研究階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8182.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8206.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
在我原會研究的階段這也是處理的一個層次這也是整個處理的一個層次所以到目前為止也還沒有請卓榮泰那裡行政院針對行政院院長的違法失職他有沒有提出相關的說明呢我請司法域政委員會主任秘書來跟您說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8208.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8235.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們這一次委員會要求在一月份的時候要求我們委會的幕僚針對我們這個委員的案子要針對他程序跟實體裡面加以研究到底有沒有合乎權力分離那目前我們會做一個詳細的研判所以我就講這個也難怪大家會對於監察委員那麼不信任認為他是獨立依法行使職權嗎你們看看你們自己的這個派案原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8237.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8264.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
你們監察院的判案原則第三條裡面講得很清楚對不對有沒有濫用職權 恣意妄為 逐任侵犯憲法保障基本人權或是他的這個行為有沒有引起社會爭議這是你們本身就要趕快要去做的對不對 大家都一直在看就說監察院對於這種眾所矚目的案子有沒有積極的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8266.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8289.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我希望就是 當然在今天見場委員 我看起來他們反正就是七月底就任期屆滿 也不會積極處理了啦而且案子會拖到下一屆 可能就不了了之那麼 但是我要說就是全民都在看 全民都在看那接下來我還有其他的問題 就是今天其實其他的委員們也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8292.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8320.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
賴清德總統他在3月10號的時候他其實已經有公布了就是要對外要徵選監察委員就是監察委員的候選人可是其實民進黨政府向來主張廢除監察院那麼賴清德他之前在當台南市市長的時候他也是認為說根本不應該要有監察院主張廢掉監察院還說他是個憲政怪獸 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8321.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8345.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那麼賴清德總統他現在因為已經有了這個不提名大法官的這樣的一個潛力所以接下來他有沒有可能也消極的不提名監察委員這我沒辦法代替這個總統回答這不是監察院能夠回答的問題如果說是賴清德又像是陳雪扁一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8347.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8360.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
他根本就不提名因為我相信或許民進黨政府現在不是那麼容易找到適合的監察委員的候選人那麼針對這個部分現在監察院內部有沒有一些準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8361.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8379.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我剛才講過整個監察院絕對不會對於沒有監委這件事情做任何的準備我們的目標還是依法希望未來監委能夠在下一屆第七屆能夠在八月一號就職我還是希望賴慶德總統可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8381.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8402.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
一線提名監察委員的候選人但是就像我講的我不確定他到底會不會提名那麼如果說他不提名的話我也希望監察院要立場要立場不要像司法院司法院憲法法庭癱瘓至今司法院院長有去向賴清德總統表態嗎說因為賴清德總統的消極不提名已經癱瘓了憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8410.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8434.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以本期希望監察院必須要有立場如果說在這一屆監察委員任期屆滿之前都還沒有作為的話應該要積極而且要積極而且要公開的向賴清德總統喊話必須要提名監察委員的候選人好 那麼最後一個議題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8437.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8447.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
剛剛前面幾個委員也都有在談到有關於這個之前有好幾位監察委員以及監察院的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8448.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8476.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
私用公務車的這個案子那麼我們的台北地檢署把這些案子這些所謂的這個監委的不當使用公務車的案子認為說這是因為監委自費油資沒有損壞公務難以認定犯罪所以就用行政牽結了但是這個案子的確是引起社會的爭議而且看到這樣子的一個牽結的結果大家是極為憤怒不滿的那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8478.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8492.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
你們監察院自己內部的自律委員會針對這幾個監察委員後來大概也做了一些處理你們處理的結果就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8494.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8517.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
口頭或書面道歉 或者是針對蘇力窮委員不懲處 王榮章委員就促其注意林玉榮委員接受親友到機場 只要口頭或書面在院會道歉就好你們這樣的處理方式 我相信已經社會大眾看不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8519.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8546.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
請教現在林育榮委員他有提口頭或書面道歉嗎有的他在院會裡面直接提出口頭道歉那有公開這份道歉函嗎他是向院會提出道歉不是向我們社會大眾提出道歉他在院會裡面有提出道歉所以有公開院會有記錄院會有記錄有錄案了這種事情其實這幾個委員都應該要向社會大眾道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8548.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8559.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你們看看你們自己的監察院監察委員使用車輛的規定有特別講到委員使用車輛因為要符合公務需求安全考量或者是符合社會相當性的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8562.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8589.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這幾位監察委員包含秘書長送寵物去美容然後接送親友到機場然後去看病這有符合所謂的社會相當性嗎所以我們在整個的機率委員會的採取之中就是以他們這個有礙到這個社會的形象所以給予相關影響監察的形象所以要求他們在院會道歉這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8590.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8607.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以這幾位委員當然你們現在紀律委員會自己有做了處理雖然說本席一直認為說你們紀律委員會的這樣的一個自律規範它是不夠的應該要比照立法委員的行為法然後本席之前也有提出監察委員的行為法 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8608.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8622.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
增加更多的紀律懲處的措施好那現在就說你幾個監察委員看起來你們紀律委員會已經處理了雖然說所做的處分大家不盡滿意那接下來本席要問的就是說是針對李俊逸呢李俊逸秘書長因為他已經辭職了所以因為他已經辭職了所以他的行為你們就可以不追究嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8634.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8656.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
依照你們的立案派查原則的第三點李俊毅的言行有沒有損害到監察院的形象有沒有損害到公務員的形象自律規範是規範委員我現在是講說你們自己監察院的立案派查原則裡面針對哪些案子要不要啟動調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8660.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8678.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
李俊毅的作為難道不構成你們裡面講的第三點裡面的第六款嚴刑或行政措施有沒有引起社會嚴重的爭議對立或民怨這個部分你們針對李俊毅 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8681.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8690.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個委員長因為是去年的狀況我請副秘書長來跟您回應一下所以針對李俊逸的問題你們都沒有再處理嗎他離職了這筆賬就一筆勾銷了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8694.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8719.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
跟委員說明這個相關的三位監委的那部分是在114年6月6號有兩次的陳情檢舉案那所以呢我們就依照陳情檢舉案然後進入一般的我們的法定程序然後經過檢查業務處然後到移到紀律委員會紀律委員會派了七位的紀律委員會來調查我現在不是在講那三位監察我現在是講李俊逸的案子所以沒有人去檢舉李俊逸嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8720.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8739.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
是 我們沒有收到任何的證據所以沒有檢舉你們就也不會依法調查你們的職權都是要等待被動的檢舉嗎李俊一的案子這麼嚴重他還利用公務車送他的狗去做寵物美容就是因為他已經離職了所以你們就可以不問不問你們連調查都沒有調查你們監察院可以做到這樣的一個程度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8747.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8766.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這不應該是符合你們自己主動立案派查的情形所以難怪大家為什麼會把監察院看扁然後認為說你們只是打蒼蠅不打老虎李俊穎拍拍屁股就走了他的案子就輕鬆 就是這個就 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8769.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8791.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
就放下了然後也不再去追究他的違法失職的責任李軍秘書長的事情其實檢察官也都有調查了其實他也是在牽結的司法權司法權監察權是監察權司法權行政牽結不代表監察權可以不去做調查我也是法律學者我對監察法是清楚的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8798.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8824.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
對不對你們今天對於李俊應的案子都可以不去調查然後對於一些小工友可能只是有一部分的這個很輕微的違法疏失可能立刻就調查這在一般人一般社會大眾眼裡是看不下去這樣的情況的就像我們剛剛講如果說連那三位監察委員你們還經過自己內部的紀律委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8825.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8848.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
做了這樣的懲處雖然說只是觸及注意不懲處或者是口頭道歉這麼輕的這樣的一個處分但是至少還有處分吧但李俊逸的狀況連發動都沒有發動調查然後也沒有針對這案子去做積極處分我真的認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8851.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8868.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
監察院這樣的一個行為是沒有辦法的李俊彬署長在去年也負起責任他負起什麼責任請告訴我他已經辭職了所以只要是我們現在政務官他有任何違法失職的情況他只要拍拍屁股辭職之後事後所有的司法責任公務責任都可以不用追究喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8874.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8879.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
民俗長 您跟我都是法律學者 您應該知道我在說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8881.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8910.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
政務官不是說他辭職之後就不再負任何的責任的您今天這樣的談話讓我覺得實在不能接受我想所有社會大眾都不能接受我覺得您不用再幫李俊逸去辯護您也不用為前屆的監察委員做任何的辯解所以這也是讓大家會認為說這一屆的監察委員有太多失職 太多護航的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8912.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8941.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
只是大家沒有這個我想之後有機會把它整理出來到底是護航了哪些大官眼前就是護航庇護這個李俊毅好那以上了我講說這個部分你們如果說是要等待要有檢舉澄清函才會辦理的話那本席今天回去之後我立刻就會提一個檢舉澄清函請監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8942.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8952.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
一定要去處理李俊逸的案子好 謝謝歐委員 謝謝監察院好 謝謝 有請林倩倩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8975.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8995.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
好 謝謝我們主席翁昭瑋本席今天要針對這個人權的一個評估還有調查公正性最後再針對這個公務倫理的部分來做一些詢答所以我先請我們監察院的黃秘書長跟我們人權委員會的應該今天出席的周植密 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8997.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9008.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
請黃秘書長跟周執銘本期今天要跟你們請教一下這個外籍家庭邦庸新制的一個人權影響評估的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9011.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9036.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
在這個禮拜一 也就是4月13號這個時候行政院已經決定來針對這個外籍幫傭新制的一個上路但是包含了34個民間團體還有監察院的人權委員會本身都也公開的提出一些疑慮那麼也針對這個我們還未完成完整的一個性別跟人權影響評估之前就已經推動這次序上是有一點點爭議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9038.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9060.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
所以本席也認為制度運作要符合人權保障的一個基本要求是很重要的但對於性別族群的這個影響評估也不能說事後才補上所以更大規模的現在我們要引進的這個移工尤其是現在最近大家這個議題非常討論的非常多的這個有關印度移工但是整體的這個移工的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9061.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9077.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
是勞動部的一個政策方向那本席在先前也有跟勞動部這邊針對他的移工還有援助民族勞工的一個勞權影響有沒有一些完整的評估也就是移工然後還有援助民族的這個勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9078.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9096.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那這樣一個結構性的改變有沒有一些衝擊本席這邊有要求做一些評估但是這個答案目前也是很模糊所以本席想要在人權 跟這個人權會這邊有做一些討論你們理解這個意思嗎就是說你們現在有移工 可是這個移工對整個社會的結構還有勞工的這個整體的這個系統會產生一些衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9104.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9121.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個本席在其他委員會也問過了那這個部分也提醒你們做一些注意啦所以本席認為這個新制會影響到三個層面第一個是本國的這個基層女性勞動者的一個工作權那第二個部分是外籍家事移工長期處於勞基法之外的一個勞動條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9122.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9143.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那麼第三個部分是兒童照顧的品質跟家庭責任的分配那這個是本席剛才講的這個背景會影響的一些問題那這些都是很敏感而且跟人權議題交織在一起的所以目前的情況是行政院已經決定上路了但是完整的人權跟性別的影響評估報告卻要後續的性評會才會提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9147.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9169.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那這樣時序是不是有點政策先行然後評估在後所以本席要請教的尤其是人權會那人權會對於這樣政策的推動程序是不是認為符合人權治理的一個基本原則呢那第二個部分是在面對行政權已經決定上路了那人權會未來要怎麼跟行政院來進行有建設性的一個制度對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9170.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9199.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那麼是不是會建立一些固定的政策人權審查的機制而不是被動的做一些回應那第三個部分是針對外界目前關注的這個移工人權跟對我國勞工的影響剛才本席也舉例了例如長工時或者是缺乏勞基法的一個保障那麼工作的內容可能也會擴張到這個照顧跟育兒或排擠我國勞工剛才本席這邊已經談到了那外籍移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9200.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9212.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
對原住民族勞工的一個衝擊影響那聯全會是不是會提出一些具體的監督指標或追蹤的機制來確保政策上路之後不會擴大既有的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9214.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9238.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
回應委員的質詢剛才您提到的這幾個問題包括人權治理、建立機制跟移工的人權對本勞尤其是原住民勞工的影響我們國家人權委員會都做了很多的對外的聲明我是不是請我國家人權委員會執行秘書詳細的跟你說執秘這邊是不是可以精準的然後簡單做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9238.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9260.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 謝謝委員關切這個議題這個議題也是我們非常關切的幾個項目那先就剛剛您提到的就是有關4月13日要上路的這個外籍幫傭的這個新制那我們非常贊成委員所提到的因為我們的意見書裡面也是提到說這個新制第一個就是會衝擊到基層女性包括保姆還有教保人員她們的一個工作權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9261.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9281.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那第二就是說它其實會涉及到家庭類型的移工因為過去我們已經有在相關的專案調查報告裡面提到說目前的家事移工他因為沒有適用到勞基法所以他的一些保障上面其實是有問題而且監督上是有困難的那這個都是在我們的家事移工這個專案調查報告裡面都已經有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9281.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9303.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那第三個就是說 針對沒有辦法落實而是要有權益的這個保障這部分我們也非常關切所以其實我們在聲明裡面一開始我們就提到說在這個新制推行之前其實是應該要先做人權還有性別的影響評估所以它現在已經產生這樣子 已經政策先行了所以後續你們要怎麼去處理跟因應呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9305.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9320.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
謝謝 對 那後續我們大概會朝兩個方向那第一個就是說就我們自己的部分我們會持續的監督那當然有必要的時候我們會一直跟行政機關去做一些了解那相關的內容我們也會放在接下來的公約審查裡面的一些獨立評估意見裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9321.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9332.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那第二個就是說其實照國際上面就是針對因為本來人權會他的職責角色他擁有的權利就是建議權不像監察院是有一個比較強制的這個背後的這個彈劾糾正這些權利那我們主要有的是糾正權 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9337.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9362.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
但是大部分的國家的國家人權機構他們會跟國會合作那這也是所謂的貝爾格勒原則裡面的一個核心所以我們其實也很盼望日後跟國會建立一些平台跟交流的管道那針對這一類的政策上的議題可以互相有一些合作然後跟一些相關後續的一些推進的一些力量本席對這個部分非常的關注因為現在已經看起來政策先行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9362.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9385.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
然後如果你們只有建議權那我們又如何跟監察院的這個糾正權能夠做一些比較緊密的連結那當然如果跟立法院之間我們當然一定會是一直來追後續在這個權益的保障上在目前的這樣一個限制下後續的一個執行方向那這可能要我們各方都非常密切而且相對主動的像剛才翁委員這邊講就是說監察院你可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9388.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9408.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
針對某一些權益的這個部分那如何主動的因為你們是具有相關的這個糾察權嘛那如何主動的來做那這樣一個調查報告已經提供給我們一些相關的這個資訊所以我想後續你們怎麼樣你剛才講的兩點嘛那監督的這個部分如何再更具體然後再更積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9409.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9431.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那這個有關於你建議跟糾察還有跟立法院這邊的一個合作可以怎麼樣具體的來做來補足目前政策已經先行了結果評估還沒有很具體的狀況針對委員提到說這個是不是監察院這邊可不可以有糾正等這些那跟您報告國家人權會的委員他也升監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9434.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9462.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以很多他們在這個過程他們會獨立的去判斷如果說要進入到監察院的整個的調查啦整個程序他們會進入對 因為目前就已經是政策先行了所以大家其實非常關注目前還沒有處理本來應該先評估可是沒有處理的這個部分那在後續我們不希望執行上碰到問題然後又很難去處理或者是已經後續沒有辦法在處理的一個狀況上 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9463.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9490.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
然後我們又再做一些只是一直補正然後就會影響到人民的一個信任所以如果正好是這樣一個角色那可能相關的這個委員就要負起一個比較更積極的一個責任但是很重要一點本席這邊還是要再提醒那有關於外籍移工衝擊到原住民族勞動的這個部分我覺得監察院還有人權委員會要把它當成是一件主要的事情來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9491.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9517.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以這個結構性的改變勢必會有衝擊那你可能為了接下來本席要談的是另外一個議題那這個就會變成跟你可能針對比如說我們剛才講外籍移工那可能有產業的需求可是對於本土原本在我們的勞動市場裡面的一個衝擊我覺得在過去的一個這幾年的一個狀況上我們有看到其實有點準備不足就針對某一個面向的一個立場來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9519.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9547.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
規劃跟處理結果後來其實影響到本土的或者是本地的這個勞動權其實影響到很大本期接下來的就是要講不過我再先補充一下啦也就是說人權會的角色那我們最好不要都是只做事後的一個檢討而是應該在制度上確保重大政策在形成的過程當中人權會的角就已經納入人權的視角所以都不要都是這個背後亡羊補牢那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9548.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9562.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
本席這邊還是要對行政權這邊做一些這個批判行政權如果都可以在憑供沒有完全完成的一個情況下就進行那人權會又缺乏有效的介入機制那麼人權的保障就會變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9563.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9589.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
留於形式這點本席要請監察院更積極的一點來面對跟處理好那本席剛才講到的其實這個外籍移工對勞動市場的這個不是太全面的一個評估其實基本上可能都在產業面本席接下來要談的一個議題就是光電政策調查的公正性跟監察角色偏移的問題好那這個跟本席剛才講的我們或許有對外籍移工的需求但是呢對本 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9591.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9620.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個本土的衝擊其實沒有每一個面向都考慮到這個有關這個你們監察院目前發布的一個光電調查報告這個報告的起點是外商業者來反映台灣投資環境的惡化但報告的內容引用的很多都是業界的意見甚至引入了你們最後還建議說要鬆綁農地然後要調整漁電共生的制度然後要喊請行政院還要監督各部會的一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9621.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9648.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
但是報告一出來社會其實質疑這份報告聽的這個聲音其實太單方面了本席請教那麼監察院在這次的調查過程當中是否同樣的納入相當程度的數量的農民養殖戶地方居民跟環保團體的一個實際經驗還是主要是因為業者陳情那就變成你們這個資料來源或者是相關的資訊來源的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9649.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9665.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
主要的一個這個連結那目前從外部的一個觀察那這個光電報告將發展的困境都歸咎在行政效率不足那麼審查有點過於嚴格但是政策本身是不是有一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9667.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9681.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
實際的狀況上是地方的衝突不斷那麼原因也不是只有審查慢而是根本的有幾個問題本席這邊提出來也就是第一個農地破碎化還有農業環境惡化第二個部分是社區的參與不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9682.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9709.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
再來還有資訊不對等那還有開發過程當中利益分配失衡跟地方的不信任那麼光電開發過度以取得土地為優先忽略了環境跟社會成本那這是本席認為這樣子的狀況一直反覆發生的根本問題所以請教一下你是不是認同光電爭議的核心不只是行政程序而是國土利用跟產業發展之間有結構性的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9712.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9741.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那麼未來你們可不可以再提出相關的報告就這個部分更深入的分析那第二個部分是對於農地農用這一個基本原則那報告當中引用了業界的數據主張的影響其實是有一些有限啦但是學界有指出相關的數據其實有一些爭議也就是你數據的引用其實導致了一些偏頗所以甚至有低估農地流失的情形你們有沒有進一步的查證最後更關鍵的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9742.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9771.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
監察院在本案當中你們到底是在協助政策加速與背書還是在監督政策是否偏離了公眾利益那這點是很重要所以本席剛才會跟你們提醒當產業有需求但是整體的評估或許沒有到那麼全面的時候它的某一些衝擊如果沒有調查報告來顯示那其實那個隱性的衝擊跟付出的社會成本我們時常是看不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9771.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9784.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以是不是可以請您就這個部分做一些回應委員是這樣您提的範圍非常廣而且我們很多都有這個所謂的新聞稿或基本上就是一個全面性的問題我們會後用書面跟你回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9787.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9802.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
對不對所以本席其實從剛才到現在連貫就是說一個系統性結構性的這個變動的時候那那個影響其實相對沒有那麼的全面那沒有那麼全面其實就會有一些群體 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9803.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9817.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
在這個過程當中被失衡了 利益被失衡了也是喪失了某一些權益所以從本席講到的外籍移工對原住民勞動的一個影響那政策先行 那對於人權保障的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9818.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9836.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
還有此次對光電業者他雖然有人提出來可是整體的評估沒有顧及到各個面向還有不同的群體這會讓人導致那監察院你是到底為了公眾利益那還是導致到最後集體偏移到去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9838.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9864.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這個產業需求的這個問題所以這個部分是不是您是要會後再補貼問嗎會後把剛才所有的問題一次的跟您回應這樣子用順便相似的回答所以最後這個部分做一個整理就是你們的職責不應該只是為單一產業在排除投資障礙而是要釐清制度的問題那麼糾正政策是否偏差所以這個部分不要在這個調查過程當中就因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9866.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9888.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
訴求的人而導致了集體偏移這是本席要特別提醒的那最後一個問題當然本席還是呼應許多委員關心的也就是監察院公務車涉及的公務倫理的這個問題所以剛才本席也聽到您對前面的委員這邊的一些回應那麼這個公務車私用到後來牽結的這個部分我想社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9889.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9910.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
就比較難接受這樣一個結果那這個牽結的部分也不具圖利或背信主觀犯意為由來做了一個牽結那本席當然尊重法律的一個判斷但是希望不是又一次司法的雙標我想這是剛剛很多委員提出來的一個重點也就是一般民眾可能在這個觸及一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9912.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9928.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
可能對法律上不是很了解或者是人與人之間相處的這個問題的這一些過失的同時其實可能都被重罰但是真正掌握權力應該要自律的人反倒就因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9930.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9947.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
就被討之夭夭我想這個是大家關注的一個議題所以本席在這邊強調行政的牽結不等於行為這個符合行政倫理這是本席談的重點那更不符合監察院應有的用車標準那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9948.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9963.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
秘書長 不好意思 監察院作為國家最高的一個監察機關那麼對外要求各機關要依法行政 延伸自愛那你們是不是有更高的一個標準的要求那如果針對公務生使用的不是那麼恰當 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9964.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9977.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那很多往往面臨刑責行政懲處或者是失去職務但是呢 此次的這樣一個監委涉及這個寵物送寵物美容但是卻以刑事牽結的這個部分然後院內剛才我聽起來好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9982.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10010.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
還要後續要有人再去做一些訴求你們才會再有這樣一個調查那本席請教檢察院是不是認為本案相關的這個用車行為有符合檢察院對公務倫理的一個標準那如果不符合你們對於目前紀律處置的一個回應是如何檢察官的簽結我們都是尊重但是在我們內部這次紀律委員會所做的所謂的這個他要求道歉這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10011.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10036.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為他要求道歉以外依照紀律規則下一個層次就是彈劾了那這已經是最高了那彈劾呢依照我們過去監察院處理公務車類似公務車全國公務人公務車有被彈劾的案件一般來講都是他有刑事訴追也就是他有刑事上比如說這個背信等等這些或是貪賭的狀況才會進入到彈劾那一般來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10039.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10059.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
如果只是沒有進入到刑事訴追的部分我們並不會進入到彈劾所以我們對於委員他的這個部分我們是全國一致的所有的公務人員有刑事訴追我們才會彈劾沒有的話我們就下一個層次那我們的紀律委員會的規範呢下一個層次就是要求道歉這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10060.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10084.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
所以針對這個事情你們未來有沒有強一些比較強化查核機制的一個我們已經把整個的公務車使用的規定全面的修正那這個修正其實就是比照大院所有公務車的管理相關的規範一模一樣以這樣的方式來進入未來的公務車的管理的改進這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10085.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10101.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以這件事情很重要就不是只有這個有關於這個法律的一個處理啦而是監察院本身的一個自我要求還有內部紀律的一個標準上那不要有雙標標準是全國一致的所有的公務員也是這樣的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10102.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10127.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
彈劾的部分 只要進入到彈劾的話一定是背後有刑事訴追了 譬如說他有這個是你說彈劾的層次 但是最重要就是說整個監察院讓人民在信心上因為這些事情而有了一些動搖所以應該你們是很重要的一個維護公益的一個單位但是呢包括本席剛才所講的那對於某一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10129.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10157.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
案件的一個單方面資料來源的偏頗跟集體偏移還有針對自己內部的一個紀律的要求我想我們掌握了權力的人應該有更高的一個道德準則好謝謝林委員的指教希望監察院能夠在這個部分就多加改善然後應該有一些具體時程所以我會把委員的建議帶回去謝謝好謝謝好謝謝林委員那我們就現在先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10464.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10480.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
好謝謝我們現在繼續開會啊那麼我們有請徐宇貞委員發言不好意思抱歉抱歉抱歉先等一下我要先暢明一下中嘉賓委員中嘉賓委員不在那現在有請徐宇貞委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10490.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10493.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
謝謝主席 我們請監察院黃秘書長好 有請黃秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10499.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10526.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
民主黨您好我想其實監察院對於一般民眾來說就當作是憲法的一個守護者所以對於監察院也有很高的一個期待那身為當然國家最高的監察機關其實在過往有很多讓我們覺得非常敬畏的事情包括說1957年的時候監察院敢於挑戰威權的體制彈劾當時的行政院長余鴻鈞 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10527.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10543.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那在2000年巴掌西事件的時候呢監察院員火速調查彈劾當時的行政院秘書長李毅陽而且追究內政部跟消防署高層職責那在2015年的時候面對當時的台南市長賴清德 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10545.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10561.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
以政治理由拒禁議會 手開地方這個自治史上的惡例的時候監察院也不為政治的壓力依法彈劾那所以在這個部分呢事實上是符合人民的一個期待覺得這也就是監察院該做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10561.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10582.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那剛剛呢我想也有委員提到啊就是針對我們可以看一下就是監察院的這個國家人權委員會在4月9號的時候有公開呼籲政府要暫緩放寬外籍幫庸制度認為會衝擊到勞動權益跟性別平等結果勞動部連甩都不甩照樣推動喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10583.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10602.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我想剛剛呢我想人權委員會的秘書長好像也有回答說其實他們沒有調查跟糾正的權利他們只能建議那依照這個部分的話那請問一下那監察院為什麼不來做這件事情呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10608.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10636.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們監察院的職責尤其是監察委員對於公務員的彈劾糾舉都是因為他有違法或是失職那這個部分還在政策的層面政策的層面的話就不屬於違法或失職的範疇所以目前來講我們的還沒有進入到相關的這種所謂的糾舉的一個程序監察的一個程序是事實但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10637.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10651.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
但是這個部分所有的人權委員他本身也身兼監察委員倘若委員也有發現有任何違法或失職之處委員當然也可以發動會主動調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10654.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10680.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這我沒辦法就個案來跟您回應因為這畢竟是每個委員他的調查的一個職權既然人權委員會這邊會提出這樣子的一個建議那一定就是認為這個應該萬用行子應該不要這麼貿然的就上路當然道中部會在4月13日還是一樣照樣實施嘛那針對這個部分我是覺得與其尋求就立法院這邊的一個合作我覺得監察院應該要負起責任來 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10682.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10705.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
就針對如果有這樣子的違法失職的相關的事件的話監察院應該就要主動的來提起調查其實我一開始的時候就有跟大會報告是說真的監察院跟立法院本來就是合作的就是您的質詢權在最後當然進入到我們這邊也會都收到收錄到相關然後會進入到所謂的調查權的這個部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10706.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10726.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那針對這個部分當然這個案子剛剛已經提了那另外再一個案子就是說針對經貿辦的這個副總談判代表顏慧欣不幸離職那因為傳出背後都有涉及到這個長期的職場霸凌那已經也有人到監察院去告發了那請問這個監察委員開始調查了嗎在海巡調查處了解這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10733.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10741.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這個案子已經有委員在韓巡調查之中了解調查之中那目前的進度呢我們請我們業務處的處長來說明目前這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10748.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10767.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
報告委員目前這個案子我們現在是函行政院但是目前行政院的複函還沒有回來所以我們會回來之後你們函行政院多久了大概目前為止大概一個月左右多久不到一個月那請問行政院一般都會多久函複呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10768.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10796.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
原則上含附的期限在法規上面是兩個月所以這個案子總共要拖三個月才有可能啟動調查嗎因為我看有的案子其實非常快速因為你們監委就會主動的分案調查然後也非常快速的在執行那這個案子其實國人都非常關心因為對於這麼優秀的一個副總談判的一個代表居然是遭到巴林而離世 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10797.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10821.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那當然這個部分的話大家都會非常的關心這樣的一個進度那如果照這樣含複來含複去的話這可能一拖又是半年以上了委員在行政機關跟監察院之間它這個含複來含複去的過程有它的有時候也有它的必要性譬如說霸凌案的調查現在我看到行政院也有在啟動所以它的這整個的調查它那邊也要完備啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10822.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10839.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
當然我覺得調查一定要有必要性但是我覺得那個效率啦還有速度不要只是按照法規因為兩個月所以我就是兩個月我覺得這個部分的話應該當然這件事情我們當然一定要調查清楚那不管是怎樣就是至少我們要針對我們這個顏惠心副董 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10844.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10866.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
談判的部分能夠給他還他一個公道那當然這個部分我覺得監察院的話是不是可以這個更積極一點來去調查只要行政機關有一個法定的釐清事實我們這邊當然就可以再進入下一個監察院能夠好好的來去調查這個是不是有相關霸凌的事件那另外就是呢高雄市先前有發生台灣雕這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10869.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10891.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
檢驗數據有物質十倍的重大烏龍它害慘了漁民喔然後另外呢最近又爆發了173人中毒的春捲事件喔然後先前的抽驗也全部都合格那也證明了地方的這個衛生治理跟風險通報系統完全的失靈請問一下秘書長喔這兩岸吶我們監察院有沒有自動立案調查這個兩岸的自動立案調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10893.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10912.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為他都已經行政為師導致重大損害也代乎職守致民眾的權益受損依照監察院的立案派查原則其實應該都有符合的那請問一下你們有立案派查嗎方委員 是不是我請衛環委員會的施主蜜來跟您回應請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10914.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10921.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
報告委員有關這兩個案子目前還沒有委員要啟動調查或是排查的狀態但是我們在這麼重大的一個實案事件但是這三年來我們的實案的案件我們大概有像蘇丹紅或者是超食品或者是草莓雞食品這些的案件我們總共有16還有保齡查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10939.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10967.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們有16案的調查案因為是高雄市政府嘛所以你們就不敢立案調查嗎這是在於委員的職權喔對 因為其實這個案子實案的問題其實現在相當大家對非常重視的那這個部分卻沒有自動立案調查所以說針對這個監察院對地方這個政府的失職的反應是不是有過於遲鈍或者是就是選擇性的包庇呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10969.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10976.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們會把您的建議帶回監察院另外我想大家都非常關心的就是這一次監察委員的這個不管是原來的秘書長李俊逸秘書長他用公務車去接送寵物每一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10991.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11001.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那另外呢還有就是有監察委員用公務車去送機接送子女這些都引起社會對於監察院的這監察委員的一個這種應該是要更為 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11006.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11025.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
高標準的去要求自己那所以大家對於這個監察院確實在你們的新聞稿裡面也特別提到說對監察院的形象也有這個重創但是呢我們看到你們的內部的調查報告呢看到的就只有就是道歉跟觸其注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11025.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11043.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
一個請他在院會道歉 一個請他觸及注意針對全國的標準來看 一般民眾的標準來看這樣子的懲處是不是太輕了我剛才有先回答大會的質詢也就是說會進入到下一個階段 就進入到所謂的彈劾了 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11043.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11071.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
要在下一個階段我們的制度就是這個道歉接著就彈劾那彈劾的部分我們查過所有全台灣我們針對公務人員的彈劾案裡面跟公務車有相關的就公務車濫用等等有相關的案件有進入到彈劾的一定他必須還是具有司法訴追也就是他有貪賭的行為在裡面或是他有背信等的行為在裡面現在司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11073.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11091.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
市法已經結案了嘛所以我們沒有具足的法律理由沒有具足的法律理由來進入到台南但是這完全不符合一般民眾對於監察院的這種期待因為你看喔平常我們都要求全國的公務人員要守紀律要守連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11092.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11105.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
包括之前的32塊的電鍋結果呢送給拾荒老婦但是最後還是被判刑了但是呢對於監察委員的自己出問題的時候卻是這樣的輕輕放下那是不是有那種關關相護的感覺那這樣的社會會接受嗎大家能夠服眾嗎那針對這個部分難道監察委員自己本身都沒有這樣的一個自覺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11115.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11125.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
紀律委員會也要依據法制嘛那法制上面我們全國公務人員的標準就是有一個有嗎 這樣的全國公務人員的標準有一致嗎我們的彈劾的標準其實我想這個部分其實全國的公務人員都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11133.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11156.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
千萬不能就是說監察委員對於全國的公務人員要求的這麼的嚴格然後只要有一點這樣子包括剛剛講的這32塊的電鍋就必須要這個有一些司法的一個追訴也被判刑結果監察委員自己遇到這樣子的事情的時候卻是輕輕放下這個完全不符合大家對於監察院的一個期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11156.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11181.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
您如果說的是那個刑事宿醉的話檢察官的部分我們當然是尊重嘛因為他就是不告發這個實在是讓大家覺得我們的機關就是依照我們過去的處理的相關原則就是進入到公務人員只要是公務車濫用這件事件進入到彈劾的都是有刑事宿醉的問題而且剛剛我想溫小林召委也有提到就是李俊一秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11182.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11210.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個部分在你們的這個報告裡面完全沒有提到那你們的理由是說因為他已經辭職了因為他已經辭職了他也不是在我們紀律委員會監察不過說真的剛才翁委員已經說他要提出相關的等於是申請我們會把這個那一般我看你們有很多針對我們針對我們社會上的一些重大的案件的話你們其實是會自己自己自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11210.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11236.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
主動的這個分案調查那以這件事情的話難道我們的秘書長當然我想您是絕對不會這樣做啦但是呢前秘書長做這樣的事情之後他只要辭職就沒事的話那以後就是告訴全國公務人員趕快我們犯了這個這樣子的一個問題之後如果有這樣的司法的上面的問題的時候我就是趕快辭職就沒事啦因為辭職之後就不用調查啦而且還有人檢舉請問秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11241.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11261.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們尊重委員的調查 那當然這個我們立法委員這邊也有提出建議 我們會把您的建議帶回去對啊 我想 因為其實我想最後啦 最後就是要跟秘務長這邊還有監察院的同仁講一下就是因為現在為什麼大家對監察院的這個信任感越來越低就是因為監察院拿不出相稱的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11262.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11290.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
包括該查不查 該印不印 該自律不自律流失的不只是形象 而是整個監察制度的社會信任希望秘書長能夠把我們今天的委員的一些質詢的問題能夠帶回去好好的來去針對監察院的一個相關的問題 大家好好的來去檢討 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝徐宇珍委員的發言本席在這邊要講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11293.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11297.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
剛剛我在質詢的時候其實相當程度的是諷刺監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11299.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11326.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
對於做違法失職的案件竟然是被動等待有檢舉澄清案進來的時候才會進行調查依照監察法的規定的話你們自己本身就可以立案啊就可以自己進行調查那麼如果說要講檢舉的話也不是書面檢舉口頭檢舉也成立所以我剛剛在質詢台上的時候其實我已經提出了我的口頭檢舉那希望就是秘書長對把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11329.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11354.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
本席剛剛所提出來的一些意見要帶回去給監察委員們對於李俊逸的這個案子監察院本身應該要主動的去調查連監察委員也都受到了相當程度的所謂的處分雖然我想在社會大眾是覺得這樣的一個處分也違反一般社會的國民情感但是對於李俊逸秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11359.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11375.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
也沒有去進行任何的調查做出任何的處分我認為社會大眾是無法接受這樣的一個情形所以請秘書長會去要去轉告這個監察委員們好的那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11378.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11406.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
接下来我们再请侯孟凯委员侯孟凯委员侯孟凯委员不在郑振前委员郑振前委员郑振前委员不在蔡易余委员蔡易余委员蔡易余委员不在苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在杨琼英委员杨琼英委员杨琼英委员不在所有登记发言的委员都已经发言完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11408.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11417.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
詢問結束 讓委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關要盡速送交個別委員以及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11421.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11438.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
委員蔡奇昌所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報並且相關機關已書面答覆好的那麼今天我們的議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢本次會議就進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11446.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11449.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是,我希望就是說下一次的那個立法會議會議員會議員會議員會議員會議 |