| IVOD_ID |
17350 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17350 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-15T08:39:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-15T15:05:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:25:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6850554717462f89e5babef2e78c1fab2db847b9569dcea103dfd735f21080b1b935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院經貿談判辦公室、經濟部、農業部、教育部就「美國貿易代表署發布《2026年各國貿易評估報告》（2026NTE）提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗與動植物防疫檢疫SPS）壁壘之豬肉、牛肉與牛肉產品、β促進劑的最大殘留容許量等各項食農相關產品及技術之要求，我國所承諾之措施、移除產品禁令或取消輸入口岸檢疫程序等，並特就其中開放切片馬鈴薯帶芽（或腐爛或發黴）仍能整批進口與其敦促撤銷基改食品進校園，對我國食品安全造成之衝擊與因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請衛生福利部、農業部、行政院消費者保護處就「寵物用藥新制上路在即，犬貓及非經濟動物急重症醫療銜接、藥品流向管理、飼主取得可近性與消費權益保障之整體配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:39:13 - 15:05:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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請準備報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員12人已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀三次會議示錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1260.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1281.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一届第五會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第五次全體委員會議議事錄時間115年4月8日9時至14時24分115年4月9日9時3分至13時14分地點群憲樓巴黎營會議室初席委員林月琴等15人列席委員黃孟凱等13人列席官員4月8日環境部部長彭啟明及各相關主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1283.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1305.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
4月9日勞動部部長洪森漢及各相關主管主席林昭及委員月勤4月8日報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長經濟部衛生福利部農業部就穩定供給與減速並進因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減速治理進程進行專題報告並被質詢本人會議專題報告及討論事項採中和詢答經委員林淑芬 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1310.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1331.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
說明提案指去由環境部部長彭啟明及經濟部產業發展署附送陳國軒報告及說明後為林月琴等17人提出質詢均經環境部部長彭啟明及各相關主管及其答覆委員邱正軍等二人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定報告及詢答完畢二委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1332.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1348.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
尋答未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內已書面答覆委員令要求期限者從期鎖定討論事項一審查廢棄物清理法條文修正草案九案二審查資源回收再利用法修正草案兩案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1350.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1367.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
決議說明及詢問完畢二廢棄物清理法條文修正草案等9案及資源回收再利用法修正草案等2案令則其繼續審查4月9日邀請勞動部部長經濟部農業部就防制強迫勞動與公平招募台灣移工制度接軌國際人群與供應鏈治理進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1369.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1393.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
委員會議由勞動部部長洪森漢報告後委員林悅請等15人提出質詢軍警勞動部部長洪森漢及各相關主管及其答覆委員洪玉祥等三人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆委員另要求其限則從其鎖定宣讀完畢請問委員會三次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1396.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1409.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
意思是確定本日會議議程有兩項專題分別是邀請衛生福利部部長行政院經貿談判辦公室經濟部農業部教育部就美國貿易代表署發布2026年各國貿易評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1412.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1430.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
2026 NTE 提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗以動植物防疫檢疫SPS壁壘之豬肉牛肉與牛肉產品被打出禁忌的最大殘留容許量等各項使用相關產品及技術之要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1431.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1450.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我國所承諾之措施 移除產品禁令或取消輸入口岸檢疫程序等並特就其中開放切片馬鈴薯 帶芽或腐爛或發霉仍能整併進口 與其敦促撤銷基改食品禁校園 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1452.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1466.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
對我國食品安全造成衝擊與因應作為進行專案報告並備諮詢二 邀請衛生福利部 農業部行政院消費者保護處就寵物用藥薪資上入債及犬貓及非經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1467.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1494.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
動物及重症醫療銜接 藥品流向管理視主取得可敬信與消費權益保障這整體配套進行專案報告 並備諮詢這兩項專題我們採綜合訓導方式進行現在介紹在場官員及列席官員先介紹在場委員我們介紹李玉琴召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1497.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1523.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
王振旭委員賴慧玟委員不好意思沒有看到介紹最帥的劉建國委員衛生福利部部長石誠良食品藥物管理署署長江志剛國健署副署長林麗如 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1527.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1542.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
經貿談判辦公室執行秘書徐崇清消費者保護處副處長陳興宏國貿署主任秘書黃敬軒動資物防疫檢疫署署長杜力華國際事務司記者鍾明娟訓務司記者曾祐竹 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1556.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1562.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
教育部學情教育署署長彭沪元綜合規劃師專委呂鴻齡接下來請衛生福利部部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1578.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1594.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席還有各位委員今天陳大願邀請那麼就美國貿易代表署2026年各國貿易評估報告對我國生命安全所造成的可能衝擊及因應作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1594.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1622.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以及寵物用藥新制這個藥品流向管理的整體配套等兩案提出報告以下做口頭的簡要說明請各位委員不吝指教那第一是有關於美國貿易代表署所發布的2026年各國貿易評估報告那麼裡面提到在豬肉牛肉以及牛肉產品還有以行促進器的最大殘留容許量等議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1626.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1634.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有關這方面的議題,衛福部始終是以維護國人健康最大優先考量,在科學的證據下來對齊國際的標準跟規範。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1641.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1654.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個採先的原則我們能量維持四大不變的原則第一個是對於比較敏感品項的禁令是不變的那麼包含在頭骨 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1656.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1684.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
腦、脊髓等等的國人較敏感的項目仍然維持禁止是進口的那第二個是原產地的標示是不變的包含不論是散裝或包裝的食品那麼以及飲食的場所都必須要標示牛肉原料的原產地所以這個標示是不變的那麼第三個在校園採購的部分管理不變那麼都維持這個在校園的營養午餐的部分維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1687.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1711.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
採購這個國產的牛豬肉優先那麼至於在基改的這個食品管理規定上呢也是不變的那麼仍然在這個校園裡面也不採購那麼第四個呢是整個食安的管理機制呢從源頭邊境到後市場的管理機制仍然維持不變那麼也會持續的維持呢赴美食地茶廠那麼依照風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1713.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1740.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在這個邊境的查驗結果呢那麼訂出相對的風險跟這個抽樣的批數方式那麼還有在後市場的這個稽查抽驗等機制上那麼也都沒有放鬆那麼此外呢在這個牛肉或豬肉的萊克多巴胺的乙型受體劑的這個安全容許量的部分呢那麼我們市要署仍然會秉持著 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1742.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1747.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
科學證據對其國際標準的原則之下來召開會議專家討論之後來做適當的該有的因應第二案是有關於寵物用藥的新制針對動物用人藥的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1764.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1779.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
秉持著以保護生命以及有效管理的兩個原則之下來跟農業部進行檢討所以對於目前已經公告的701項的可用於動物 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1782.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1795.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
使用的人用藥品那麼我們支持持續的維持現有的使用機制那麼得由藥商或者是藥局來供應獸醫師來做使用那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1798.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1815.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對於這個動物的用藥還有一些醫用氣體的提供跟管理我們會盡速來協助農業部來完整的做規劃包含流向的管理還有用藥的一些安全不濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1816.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1841.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那麼來確保這個整個藥品人用藥品的管理上沒有產生缺漏那麼透過這個持續性的跨部門合作來完備對毛小孩的保護那麼最後在食品這個整個食品安全的方面那麼就如同前面所報告的那麼我們會持續的關注相關的談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1843.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1861.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
結果的進行那麼也會秉持著守護國人健康最大的原則來作為因應那麼以上簡要說明再請各位委員指教那麼謝謝謝謝市部長現在請農業部動植物繁育檢疫署隊署長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1870.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1898.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席各位委員還有與會的所有大眾各機關的首長大家好那接著由農業部來做報告那我是動植物防疫檢疫署的署長杜力華那首先先就我們針對這個美國貿易代表署發表的這個美國各國的這個貿易障礙的部分涉及到動物副產品也就是飼料用的牛血跟牛油以及加工用馬鈴薯的檢疫報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1898.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1927.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那來跟各位來做報告那這裡說明一下在動物副產品方面那我首先說明公司要使用的牛血跟牛脂的一個產品那這部分已經列入到臺美的這個ART的這個條文裡面那我國也承諾對美國這個動物的這個副產品牛血牛脂不採取或維持任何不符合OVA的指引的一個措施那我首先先說明一下美國目前是OVA所認可的BSE風險可忽略的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1928.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1951.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那美國從2003年12月起12月加拿大移入的典型的BSE的案例以後它已經有20多年沒有發生典型的BSE的一個案例那雖然在其後有6個案例但都屬於牛脂老化自然機率發生的非典型的BSE的一個案例好 那針對飼料用的牛脂的一個進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1952.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1966.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那依照歐法的這個國際規範跟我國的規範他非屬因實施動物檢疫的品項但是他進口的時候要向本部來申報輸入查驗的飼料登記那經查他在10到14年期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1967.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1992.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我國的飼料用的牛子都是由澳大利亞進來那沒有從美國進來的記錄那牛血的產品那從美國輸入他需要經過署裡面本署的這個審查的一個認證確保他沒有疫病傳播的風險後他才可以准許輸入那目前還沒有完成整個程序以前那美國的牛血產品還是不能夠輸入 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1994.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2017.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那即便將來輸入以後也不能夠使用在牛羊鹿等反芻的一個動物的一個飼料那另外在加工馬鈴薯部分那過去我們訂定的只有一套叫做使用的使用的馬鈴薯的輸入檢疫的條件那因應這個一些貿易上的一個需求所以在今年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2019.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2025.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
2月份2月6號的時候我們已經公告實施美國產加工用馬鈴薯的輸入的一個檢疫的一個條件那當然在這個條件裡面我們不變的是8種病蟲害的管理的強度不變那同時也要求美方要強化在輸出前這個發芽劑的使用的程序那另外輸出上也要確認沒有發芽跟沒有突然然後美國在檢疫症方面也要宰明 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2048.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2051.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
該批的馬鈴薯僅供加工使用那輸入的時候當然依照我國的規定來進行相關的一個產業跟文件的以及建議的一個審核所以這個部分本部會持續依據國際的規範跟科學 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2066.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2069.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個風險的一個評估的原則然後審慎檢視而且滾動的檢討相關的這個防疫措施同時跟食品安全措施來做扣合那能夠回應委員跟各界的一個期待那另外我也針對最近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2084.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2100.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個人用藥用於犬貓跟非經濟動物的最新的一個經營跟各位委員來做報告那第一點就是我們也收集了各界的一個意見所以在原來的這個辦法裡面那也朝向要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2101.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2121.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
修正從核准字改為公告字如此目前的701項或即便現在目前在預告中的31項也就變732項都可以從這個核准字變為公告字這是第一點第二個就是如果是在原辦法的修正的時候那麼也增加了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2122.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2148.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
寄存備藥的制度那當然這個就可以解決急診或夜間有需求的時候那麼就可以來先讓獸醫院可以及時來做處理同時也免除四處奔波延誤黃金救援時間的問題那第三點就是標示的一個簡化那或許在過去從人用藥轉回動法用藥因為標籤等等的一個程序的一個複雜所以讓藥商卻步那針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2152.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2168.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個貼標的問題甚至有沒有簡易的用戳章來取代等等的彈性的這個作為那這個部分都目前都正往這個方向在做鬆綁的一個研議好那也大家最關心還是回到藥品流向的問題因為一個確確的原則從人品藥流到動保藥以後不能再回到人品藥所以對於後續藥品的流向的問題還有監管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2181.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2204.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
機制那這個部分都要同步搭配來做建立那當然最重要還是民眾最關心的如何確保他們取得藥品的便利性跟權益的保障那我本部的目標非常的清楚就是不增加事主的負擔為原則同時可以維持多元的公藥管道包括藥商供貨藥局購買或專案進口各種管道都可以並行 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2209.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2222.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那當然我也要跟大家報告那各界的醫生各界的聲音我們都聽到了所以在4月10號由我們次長邀集衛福部跟相關的公協會的討論已經做出具體的結論是暫緩實施那在4月13號行政院也內部整個做討論那這個更進一步來做決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2235.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2249.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
會朝向採取註銷目前的管理辦法的方式來做進行那目前也正在進行中那第二個就是將目前公告的七零一項人用藥品作為動物保護藥品那這樣子就可以讓在過渡期間這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2257.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2276.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這個獸醫師跟我們的這個獸醫院都可以直接有使用更寬廣的一個藥品的一個來源那昨天卓院長在大院跟各位委員報告的時候也有承諾在食物的問題尚未完全解決以前那寵物用藥心智不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2277.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2291.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
實施的時間表那我們本部的部長也提出保證在新政的辦法還沒有實施的過渡期本部絕對會確保所有動物醫院的所有用藥需求得到滿足不會讓藥品出現短缺所以最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2294.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2311.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們本部要強調的是這套的制度的核心基石是保障動物的生命權跟醫療權我們一定會秉持審慎穩健的原則在所有的配套措施沒有到位溝通沒有充分權絕對不會衝出上路當然在過渡期間我們也會全力確保藥品的供應穩定而且會和衛福部獸醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2322.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2334.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
受醫院藥師藥商等相關的團體密切的協調讓這一套的新的制度可以真正符合務實的一個需求也能夠順利運作 以上報告謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2335.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2364.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
謝謝杜署長現在開始詢答做一下宣告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面諮詢請上會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收案現在請登記第一位委員林月群召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2374.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2379.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝主席那麻煩我們的署長對話署長江志剛 不好意思江志剛署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2390.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2407.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
雙藻 因為最近我在社群上看到有便利商店來售一款日本進口的飲料那這瓶飲料標示一個叫做幫助減少內臟脂肪並且以這個為主要販售的訴求可依據我們的食品安全衛生管理法的第28條的第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2409.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2436.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
食品不得為醫療效能的標示宣傳或廣告其實食藥署認定基準也非常的明確指出只要涉及到改善疾病或疾病相關生理的素質譬如脂肪或血脂那就屬於我們的醫療效能所以請問一下署長減少內臟脂肪這樣的標示在食藥署認定是不是也涉及到我們的醫療效能如果是的話為何這款還在市面上販售 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2438.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2458.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
謝謝委員的催旋有關於這個產品裡面不管這邊左邊的特水右邊的叫做醫幼胃門的比較濃味的那因為特別提到所謂的幫助減少內臟脂肪這件事情應該是已經是涉及或是改變所謂人體的器官生理組織跟外觀的功能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2460.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2486.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
雖然說沒有涉及醫療的療效啦但是他已經違反了實驗法28條第一項裡面誇大醫生誤解的規定所以我們會同時按照45條裡面的裁罰大概4萬到400萬的罰款現在市面上還在販賣所以我需要再進一步問說那食藥署目前對於進口食品標示的審查機制為何像剛剛這個上一般來講你 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2488.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2506.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
已經標示出來了那你如果是支柱案那個實質審查還是僅形式上的審查及放行如果沒有一致的那個實質審查的話那就會導致到說有健康暗示甚至醫療效果用於就直接進入到市場影響消費者的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2508.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2525.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這部分我們只要發現其實在52條裡面有一項是讓他們所謂的限期回收跟改正所以改正前時我們就不准許他們繼續販售如果持續是有違反我們的確一定會給予裁罰那予以沒入跟銷毀這是我們既定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2525.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2541.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以不論是在我們看到邊境或是後市場我們還是用同樣的原則來辦理如果產品的外包裝上面標示跟違反了剛剛有提到的食安法的第28條相關的我們食藥署跟地方政府已經邊境我們同時一定是積極的來做處理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2543.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2570.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這些誇大不實所謂會所謂減少內臟脂肪的都牽涉到比較誇大的一個宣稱這我們一定會積極的所以我這邊是要要求衛福部應該全面檢討我們的進口食品標示管理的機制處理原則建立一致的標準不管國內外的產品只要涉及到醫療效能或類似健康效果宣稱的話就應該要適用相同的那個審查標準所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2571.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2593.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
署長是不是可以願意來針對此類的產品啟動全面的檢討對 我們持續針對這個標示的部分不實或者是會發大不實或者一身誤解那一個月內是不是可以就提出具體的管理跟改善對 我們持續來做我們又會把相關的目前的措施跟接下來可以更加強的來去做巡查好 謝謝署長 請請回接下來我們請時部長請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2599.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2616.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
早上上週有幾則新聞都讓我感覺到非常的難過一個是台中有強制猥褻前科的教練被判刑那另外一個事實上是台北市的語言治療師涉嫌到對兒童猥褻及性侵 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2616.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2642.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那這些案子都有一個共同點就是加害者都長期處在一個可接觸到孩子的位置尤其事實上原治療師他本身就是跟孩子接觸那媽媽還以為是說這是療程那為什麼家長不知道這是是否是療程因為過去我在民間有處理過在找療單位事實上對孩子進行額面那他的辨識也是說這事實上是療程所以部長可不可以說明一下對目前對這個案子的掌握狀況是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2643.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2666.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
日前我們都是這樣一旦有這樣的訊息都是醫事師直接會發函衛生局都暫停醫事人員的臨床業務在調查期間就先暫停來完備後續的調查跟可能要一副懲戒或者是依法要提起起訴的這些過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2669.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2683.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
對 部長這是事後啦我覺得事前是不是可以做一些比較防堵的因為過去我們自己在處理不當對待很常這樣的辯解都說特殊孩子的需求而去做什麼樣的一個療程而以至於要做這樣的行為可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2684.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2703.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
事實上最後的見解並不是這樣那個基本上都是不當對待所以我的意思說是不是應該讓家長能夠去知道這是我覺得在預防否則就是你們要提出更進一步的改善措施是怎麼讓家長知道因為今天如果醫生在看診的時候基本上都會有一個人在 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2703.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2725.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
裡面是去做這樣的一個監督那更何況事實上是早療的孩子那他甚至家長在外邊聽到這樣子的一個狀態的時候他還是以為是療程那有沒有清楚的做說明我希望這部分是不是可以提供相關的理論上孩子在接受治療的過程當中都有家屬或家長的陪伴可是他們是在外邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2726.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2745.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
而且這樣也誤以為這是療程因為是在外邊所以這部分還是要請你們把這個怎麼去積極作為提供我們來瞭解一下就是說如果在治療的過程當中需要隔離 單獨相處的時候就做出一些規範我認為那個並不是常態啦多數還是都是有家長跟家屬的那來 部長這 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2753.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2780.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
像剛剛這則新聞的話當然如果違法當然就會公佈在我們的醫事人員的性別事件的資訊專區那這是民國112年的《性平三法》當中修正通過的首設者專區根據你們的網站說明只要涉及到性別事件的刑事訴訟跟刑事訴訟裁判書我們就可以通過專區看到這個不適任的醫事人員部長目前這個醫事人員的性別事件的資訊專區除了刑事訴訟跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2782.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2808.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
行政訴訟裁判書還有什麼途徑可以對接到這個醫事人員的性別專區我們目前採用的除了公開的這個裁判書之外還包含了在衛生局醫事懲戒委員會或者是相關藥事也有懲戒委員會那麼懲戒委員會裡面做出的懲戒如果做出懲戒結果我們也會PO在這個上面那另外現在也在借接那個CRC專區啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2809.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2838.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就是如果是涉及到那個兒童的這個相關事件不過部長我今天是還要問一個比較進一步的問題就是說因為我要強調一個重點如何縮短從事件發生到披露的時間點像我剛剛前面講的那個事實上是議員揭露的那個時間點時間差事實上是對我來講是最在意的如果我們設想一個問題如果正名語言治療師沒有被羈押也沒有被我們的黃淑君議員揭露的話那正名語言治療師 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2839.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2856.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
就會持續在職業接觸而燒那就會有下一個受害者所以我整個看這個流程首先是司法判決司法判決的時間的漏洞跟缺口是什麼因為一定要三審定驗嗎不用只要他有判決書就會上來問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2857.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2887.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
只要一審就可以可是一審呢要自己是你們衛福部要自己去撈資料來放專區那就會有這個量的問題因為為什麼這樣子一筆一筆的去核對一筆一筆的看你覺得這個時間差不會產生時間差嗎這當然我們同仁做得很辛苦啦我們本來一直在請求這個司法院的協助啦但是這個到目前為止他都只是提供他只願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2887.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2908.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
逐批次的提供檔案然後我們在裡面自己撈啦所以我們現在就是這個透過用AI開發這個AI的技術來協助用人工搜尋的方式所以現在時間有縮短嗎或者是應該講說怎麼去縮短因為我們現在制度沒有即時通報只能被動搜尋的話我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2909.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2928.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個時間差因為都是在搶時間不要讓孩子再暴露在風險當中那樣子的狀況所以我希望能夠持續精進縮短時間差像你剛剛講要求衛福部應該跟司法院去建立直接的通報機制一旦只要一審判決的話認定有罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2928.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2943.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
判決書一公開就要能夠主動連結到醫事人員性別平等的那個資訊專區我們不是等衛福部去查這個真的有時間如果孩子還暴露在這風險上我們國家何以去面對甚至我們事實上是有兒圈公約國內法化的一個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2945.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2959.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以我認為一審就應該開始去做這些事情不是那我不知道說這樣子的一個建議部長能不能做到我來努力我們這邊會要求司法院所以再拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2961.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2977.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
最後接下來就是第二個問題就是除了司法判決行政調查你剛剛也講說有一個管道就是你們會登錄有刊登在地方公報的呃懲戒的決議書好可是我仔細看了衛福部性平專區的18項類別裡面當然醫師啊藥師啊也有語言治療師可是部長這你知道這18個類別當中有幾個類別是有懲戒制度的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2984.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3006.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
不是所有的醫師都有懲戒只有醫師跟藥師有而已 因為他們在過去立法的時間前後不一還有這個他當時候的這個認為那麼所以如果這是發生的這個案子就不會啊就少了一個這個公務人員的一個途徑所以我覺得部長這邊是不是可以全面檢視現有專區的類別是不是都有懲戒的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3009.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3034.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個途徑所以我們要做的是是不是可以把漏洞都補上因為把所有的時間差縮短填補之後然後讓我們的孩子不會持續在暴露在風險當中希望部長一個月內一樣好我來把它全面再盤點一下好謝謝部長好謝謝委員謝謝林詠璇在委謝謝市部長接下來請陳金輝委員發言質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3041.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3049.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員 下一位我想請石部長還有杜署長請石崇良部長 杜立華署長好 委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3054.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3071.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
謝謝部長跟署長我想你們也注意到了4月10號你們在開會的時候外面有非常多這個爸爸媽媽帶他們的毛小孩直播看著你們的開會那我今天想問這一兩週引起這麼多的軒然大波有這麼多人在網路上發文串聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3072.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3088.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
造成這一次這麼大的爭議還有民怨最大的問題是你們所公布的這個管理辦法不夠貼近東吳的臨床醫療那兩位是不是覺得這樣子7月1號貿然公布要上路兩位是否要為此而道歉呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3091.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3108.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
跟委員說明這個事實上是起源在102年的時候那麼一個檢舉案件開始那麼主要是涉及到這個藥事法裡面關於人用藥品 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3108.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3125.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
的使用有一些規定供應也有一些限制那麼才引發這樣在這個人用藥品流到這個動物用藥它的使用安全跟管理那麼才經過很多次的討論之後訂出這個使用管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3126.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3150.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
當然這個那麼久之前這個又是兩年多以前那麼根據很多的團體大家一起討論出來的結果那麼結果在過去這兩年當中呢並沒有反應那麼到了最近才反應出來我也覺得訝異那不過呢我們還是及時的因應我懂了所以你覺得最近大家在網路上吵得沸沸揚揚你覺得很訝異不需要道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3151.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3175.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這個不是道歉不道歉的問題這個是我們要回應到實際上的第一線的需要沒關係沒關係我們就是要一個答案而已因為可能很多關心這個議題的人也會看在眼裡啦那剛剛署長講得很清楚署長說到說主任長也關心這個議題所以現在是暫緩那我們想知道說4月10號你正式的會議記錄公文到底什麼時候會發出來這個暫緩的公文那你們現在暫緩想要壓多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3180.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3194.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
多久的時間是一年兩年還是三年因為聽起來剛才時務長說經過兩年充分的討論結果這麼多人還是民怨沸騰你感到訝異嗎所以我想知道你下一次是要押多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3196.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3210.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
謝謝陳委員我首先先說明一下人用藥轉為保用藥那在過去來講確實是沒有一個有需求但是沒有個合法的一個位階所以這件事情一定是要正式而且去解決它那11302月26號的這個的辦法其實也是從104年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3215.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3233.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
其實署長不好意思打斷你我也只是要問你說你們開會的結論什麼時候會出來然後你預計暫緩多久在4月10號的下午的時候我們就已經彙整了有逐字稿跟我們的重點的一個摘錄那所以說都已經開始依照我們的公文的程序在做呈報 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3234.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3250.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那在這段時間 整個簽報准了以後其實對外就可以來轉送至少我想各界尤其開會的相關的利害關係的團體都收得到會議紀錄不用到那麼久 這兩天應該就會那裡面你們是壓暫緩多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3256.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3273.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個現在是逐一針對這個問題來做討論那現在有一個更新的版本就是這個的辦法直接用註銷那註銷以後用一個更確切實際的內容辦法跟合乎法規的位階 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3275.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3292.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
來做替代 你的意思是說你們決定要把它註銷這件事情大概多久以內有可能會發生我想也是在這兩天因為昨天 還要再開一次會其實不管行政院或是雙部長都相當重視這件事情所以大概都已經定案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3292.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3312.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那現在就是針對這個註銷公文的文稿內容那等雙方確認以後對外就可以公告了所以等於是說你們兩個部門你們要再重新想出一個方法不用已經大致大致已經內容確認註銷以後你還是有要新的聽起來你們還是要有新的管理辦法是是是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3313.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3335.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那這個就會針對所有的收集各界的意見都會有針對這個來做處理那今天我們就稍微今天我們就稍微跟您兩位探討還有整理一下最近各界的意見那這個是今天我們拿到的報告也就是農業部提出來的他說臨床動物治療長期存在需要使用人類的藥物人用的藥品嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3336.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3364.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那現行藥施法規定動物診療機構並非人用藥物供應對象所以獸醫師臨床上雖有用藥需求缺合法的供應管道那因為藥施法的限制導致藥品供應中斷影響動物的醫療這個也是剛剛石部長有講到的所以我們就來探討其中的三條可能最相關的第六條它當然是對於藥品的定義所以它定義出什麼叫做人用藥品嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3365.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3374.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
第三三條他是規定說可以賣給誰那裡面就排除掉了這些跟動物相關的機構第五十條是在講誰可以調劑誰可以開處方這邊也沒有規範到有這個獸醫診療的機構所以這三項規就出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3382.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3406.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
就會引發剛剛杜署長所講的也是杜署長報告裡面講的空有這個急診深夜偏鄉醫用氣體注射劑等等供應情況取藥不便延誤動物的救治所以也有蠻多聲音導向說是不是要修藥事法這邊要請石部長給予您這邊的意見我的意見就是不宜不宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3408.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3424.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
在動保法這個動物保護法裡面寫得很清楚第4條他就提到在動物用藥不足的時候才以人用藥品補充之所以他是分流的那麼再從藥事法來看所有的規範都是在人用藥品這些藥品的開發是根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3427.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3438.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
人體的結構生理以及這個病理學的基礎之下所開發出來的並不是為動物設計所以從兩個法的基本精神來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3439.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3469.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
人用藥品用於動物只是不得已之措施我等一下跟您講一下世界上其他國家怎麼做但因為這個是農業部提出來的報告所以我現在也想要請杜署長講一下因為剛才石部長針對您提出來的報告您有提到說這是藥事法的限制但石部長認為說不宜修改藥事法這邊我想請問農業部的意見好 謝謝委員我首先先說明一下剛剛我們所討論的架構都是在原來的辦法之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3469.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3495.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
所以有它這個緊縮的一個地方所以可能要尋求到依照這個藥事法的相關的精神如何解就一定有一定的程序出來但現在我們討論的一個方向也就是說以目前過渡時期來講動物區的701項人品人用藥轉到動物用藥這個的部分就是可以用的這個部分那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3496.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3512.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
可以克服到藥事法第50條的束縛那我們就往這個方向來做處理就不一定要就是衛福部有困難的修法的部分就不一定來在藥事法第一條就寫得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3513.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3531.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那麼如果其他法律有規定者從其法律之規定所以藥事法是完整的規範人用藥品的製造、供應、使用所以這是一個完整的人藥管理所以動物用藥如果有不足要用人藥的部分要回到動物保護法去做規範我先跟你講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3535.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3553.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個問題並不是只有我們遇到這個其他國家有遇到那為什麼我們今天要來討論就是因為因應台灣的小子化超高齡化還有單身率等等的所以未來啊單身的人或是長者但是他有一個陪伴動物會非常非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3554.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3557.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
不罕見就是常常會有這樣子的狀況所以對他們而言也許這個急診這個半夜需要就醫的需求一定會有的那這個需求你現在只會越來越大而已所以你必須要正面去面對它那我們來看這些都知道了因為農業部的報告都寫了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3572.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3595.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你現在遇到的問題就是急救住院短缺這些藥品藥商的登錄意願低剛有講到了你現在登錄就只有兩成標示包裝跟成本問題這個業者不願意去承擔這個我們也可以理解因為其他國家也有發生還有偏鄉罕病藥物難取得然後還有石部長很關心的這個流向管理啊臨床效率啊等等等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3597.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3620.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那我們就來看一下這邊想告訴您的是這個世界上都有這樣子的問題可是您剛說到的人用藥物大部分都已經經過動物實驗了所以允許人用藥在動物身上不管是美國歐盟或是日本就是這樣子那美國他們怎麼做他們就是把陪伴動物跟經濟動物分開如果你是經濟動物的話他會列舉一些藥物擔心這個藥品殘留嘛這個也是農業部可能會擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3627.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3642.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
但是在這個陪伴動物的話他們就沒有這樣子的嚴格他們是採負面表列他們會尊重然後相信獸醫師在治療陪伴動物有高度專業所以他們負面表列就給他們彈性的空間然後尊重那 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3643.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3669.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
世界上多數國家都是就是兩位都很懂就是off label use標籤外使用人用藥來治療動物還有經濟動物等等的所以石部長剛講的你一定要所有人都去登記成動物用藥其他國家他也沒有辦法做到他現在大部分的國家就是七成就是人用藥單純動物用藥就占三成先進國家的常態的藥物分布比例就是這樣子好那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3670.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3694.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
署長部長很在意這個抗生素抗藥性等等的日本他就設計說日本的獸醫抗藥抗生素耐藥性的監控機制他規定所有的這些獸醫師不管你是治療經濟動物或是陪伴動物都一定要去回報使用的狀況來讓主管機關建立統計資料庫瞭解這個使用的狀況避免抗藥性那我已經告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3695.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3710.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
其他國家是這樣子做了所以最後具體也請您再回應一下這幾個建議都是從這個很多專家學者或是團體他們整理出來的第一個你應該是拒絕嗎調整藥師法這個沒有這個必要剛剛提到只要從 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3716.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3740.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個動保法的相關的規定去修正就可以供藥所以這個沒有問題所以不需要去修藥事法這樣這個邏輯上會那你們現在的管理辦法因為你說你們有可能要把它暫停再出一版新的你們新的會參考這些意見嗎比如說把正便保驗改成負面保驗我想委員所提到的這些農業部都收集了足夠的這些相關的資訊他們會盡快的來嚴定那我們會積極來協助農業部訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3746.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3773.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
對 那你現在要改的就農業部啊 他的報告寫到三到六點你三到六點你要怎麼處理這個都是農業部會去訂出來的那我們這邊只是做協助去強化把我們過去的人用藥品的管理規定的經驗提供給這個農業部然後兩邊的系統去串接避免這個人用藥品的管理出現漏失那農業部這邊回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3775.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3780.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝謝委員 因為原來的報告是在之前就提供可是在這兩天的時候 應該有變對 因為政策的定已經拍板定案那都朝向你整個解決就是原來的這個法規註銷然後重新制定一個更貼切 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3790.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3794.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那這些原先這個所擔心不管是市主或是公約所擔心的問題我們檢視出來應該都已經獲得解決了所以我們繼續把這個新的一個版本那你新的版本你可以稍微預告一下您新的版本最大的變革會如何我覺得在於目前來講的話大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3811.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3834.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
從藥商跟藥局的供應還是雙軌那藥商的部分已經由原來的144項已經可以提高到701項了那當然日後這個滾動階段還會再調升所以基本上所有的用藥乃至於特殊的用藥都有他的平台跟管道可以來做出所以你的意思是說未來藥品登入會到700多項那你還需要你原本在報告中提到的寄存備藥基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3835.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3855.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
是所以這個基準原來是在原來辦法的架構之下那要有一個突破點但現在這個註銷以後那就沒有所謂的基準問題因為藥商可以直接供貨給我們的獸醫院跟獸醫師可以來做用藥好那我們再來未來就期待你新的管理辦法版本謝謝署長請署長請回座請部長跟江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3862.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3875.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好好下次好謝謝那我們先回座因為劉昭偉好謝謝委員謝謝陳金輝委員發言現在請劉建國委員質詢好謝謝主席請部長還有那個房間署署長劉委員早請市部長讓江雙休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3892.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3918.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這其實今天委員會感謝召我特別排這個專案報告基本上就是因為這個戰友是從經濟委員會延燒到衛航委員會那兩個主體不一樣兩個現在你看一個是部長一個是其他農業部的署長在這邊講相關的這個人類用藥跟動物用藥基本上就已經有邏輯上的一個衝突了然後113你去訂定的這個相關的管理辦法最終農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3920.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3938.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
面對這麼多的毛爸毛媽的這樣的一個抗議然後藥局的反彈然後獸醫師的沒辦法得到正確的未來執行的一個方式哪有一個行政機關組織機關定的辦法經過兩年的洗禮兩年的討論兩年的多方的這樣的接觸最終最終要把它廢掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3948.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3951.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那怎麼會 現場 現場表決是不是次長 署長 對不起不好意思你們的次長是用舉手表決把你們訂了公告兩年多的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3971.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3982.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
要把它延期那延期不代表問題解決對不對那你現在剛剛因為我坐在台下聽到你講的這個半島廢掉了你們要趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3984.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4012.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這是延期喔你們市長講是延期你說要把它廢掉然後要再另立另訂新法新的辦法出來嘛對不對報告委員是註銷因為沒有實施不能用廢紙好啦註銷反正就是不見了啦簡單講就這樣嘛然後你說會訂定新的辦法出來對不對是的多久再兩年我想然後兩年完之後再用舉手表決再把它註銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4014.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4036.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
還是一年然後如果又緩談然後再把它註銷不過實際上是這樣報告委員確實這兩年的改變真的非常大那你那天有沒有在現場我有在現場這兩年改變有多大這兩年有疫情因為這兩年有非洲豬瘟這兩年導致你們這個辦法基本上要透過海珍民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4037.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4061.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
透過這樣的一個表決方式來註銷那天是延期啦 你是現在直接在這邊宣布是註銷喔你跟次長講好了嗎 跟部長講好了嗎這個辦法就註銷 還是公告註銷還是當天就註銷了報告委員 這個真的是社會關注的當然是社會關注 今天才招委才排這個委員會嘛那你們註銷時間是什麼時候你們註銷時間是什麼時候我們應該這兩天會完成相關的公告程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4067.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4090.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以我們的速度也相當快,也符合大家的關注跟期待你們的速度沒有相當快,速度相當快就不會搞到兩年之後你們是113年2月26號訂的你們是預計今年的7月要施行嘛對不對然後才會有這麼大的一個爭論嘛然後你們現在是延期,然後你講說要註銷了程序還沒有找到註銷,但是你們是朝向註銷嘛是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4092.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4103.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那你叫毛爸毛媽然後獸醫師還有藥師如果信賴你們你們在短期之內可以訂定一個新的辦法然後大家對這個辦法的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4104.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4130.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
是大家都可以接受的那如果是大家都可以接受的為什麼在7月1號上路之前為什麼不趕快去做調整修正在既有的你們已經在成案然後這個管理辦公告的過程裡面去做調整去做修正哪有你們自己訂的東西然後7月1號上路然後用人民表決之後然後再延期然後現在你又宣布註銷然後你又要認定心理的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4135.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4146.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我聽不懂 因為我在台口 我怎麼聽得懂我怎麼聽得懂 怎麼會有這樣一個政府在做面對這種事情的處理方式是如此的粗糙沒關係 那你現在再答我 祝蕭 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4151.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4173.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
要再訂出新的一個草案出來嘛對不對一個辦法辦法 對辦法嘛 對就是草案還是一個還沒有完成之前就是草案嘛對不對然後我們跟衛福部會會嫌然後在討論的過程中現在大概都已經有聚焦因為方向一直 衛福部為什麼要可以討論因為我們是會嫌公佈使用的是人用藥所以一定是會嫌來公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4174.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4194.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以也是部長剛剛已經講得很清楚嘛他就是對啊要設法規範就是人類的用藥啊是對那你的動物用藥他為什麼要跟你溝通那你如果可以溝通為什麼你們不進場溝通我們應該你們為什麼之前就不溝通好你們為什麼要留在這個法註銷之後還可以溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4194.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4214.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
第一個 我們是依照法規啦 也就是說 要是我這條藥品 販賣業者不得兼受農藥動物用藥品或其他毒性化學物質所以要先 報告 報告委員就是 你們其他任務不修不是 不是 那個我要再讓我完整說明一下就是其實這個辦法之前也是依照動物保護法第四條第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4214.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4243.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
向的一個規定所延伸出來那這個因為使用到人用藥所以一定是要會嫌衛福部畢竟衛福部是我們的人用藥的主管機關而且在於人用藥這塊的管理已經數十年非常的穩健成熟那現在有很多的藥劑要轉為東寶用藥當然一定要有這個衛福部食藥署一起共同大家來做討論市長你多說了嘛你們的辦法名稱你要不要唸一次給大家聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4244.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4267.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
就人用藥 藥品對 用於犬貓及非經濟動物的管理辦法對 要訂這個辦法的時候對 要訂這個辦法不管母啊 豬啊 不管有沒有跟衛生部溝通過有啊 一定有嘛這個就是這樣子有一定的脈絡下來已經溝通過了嘛 對不對而且是從104年開始就不斷的溝通所以到112年的時候有三次的預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4274.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4286.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
整個法規是有三次預告三次預告才成行所以切一號要執行嘛對不對他兩年緩衝期對嘛對嘛原本就都三次的預告之後然後切一號執行嘛對不對然後上個禮拜五用表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4289.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4313.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我應該這樣講是說 說延後嘛那你現在來委會說註銷嘛我沒有聽錯嘛不對嘛這個中間都有跟衛福部溝通嘛對嘛啊你現在要再怎麼溝通你把這個法廢掉之後你要再怎麼跟衛福部溝通 經濟改變了時空改變了我還有一點時間那你跟部長可以溝通一下嘛你們再定一個新的一個草案出來然後部長願意接受的話我們籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4315.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4339.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這個差異在什麼地方在你們這個辦法的第幾條 第一條 第二條 第三條 第五條絕對會提出一個更妥適的辦法所以就代表你們這兩年多來公告了這個法律就是不妥適嘛不是不妥適 而是時空背景兩年之下就是不妥適嘛 什麼叫時空背景 兩年而已啊這兩年 另外有疫情 這兩年還是叫非洲豬瘟 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4341.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4346.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這兩年時空背景差在什麼地方這兩年時空背景部長換人了人事物更動了所以時空背景不一樣了你繼續說清楚啊我今天是要突顯一個點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4361.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4390.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
公告三次企業要實施最終預告三次預告三次最終企業要上路然後再上禮拜五現場與會的專家學者教授團體的代表毛爸媽媽舉手表決不同意好就延期你現在還宣布說直接這個辦法註銷然後要跟衛生部可以溝通要定出一個更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4392.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4404.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
復活現在時空背景的辦法我們是立法機關兩年的立法時空背景不一樣你要跟我講差在什麼地方 簡單就好 時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4405.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4431.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
差在什麼地方你訂定了一個新的辦法跟現在你們要促銷這個辦法因時空背景的差異差在什麼地方簡單講一下就好好如果我這個政策的推動上在針對毛小孩不管他將來的意義你還是沒有講重點啊是部長不一樣了還是署長不一樣了我想這個不是意義人事物嘛時空背景講到是人事物嘛我們要解決的事還是市市的部分你講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4437.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4462.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
還是誤得不能講一項你通通講不出來啊我們還是務實的要解決這個問題當然是務實啊 總不務實你們非常務實啊你們變個辦法是在讓相關的團體像讓所有的爸爸媽媽還有這些數位式的代表這個要事的代表用現場表決的多數不同意實施那就照這樣延期然後你今天來講註銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4464.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4493.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
然後你會訂更好的一個方法出來辦法出來我就聽不太懂所以我才會那可不可以就是我們會快速的來處理這個問題那也會一個禮拜快速對應該是一個禮拜以後我不是說訂辦法而是相關的程序對各界呼應最重要的這個一個的期待的部分我想我們都可以來做最快是什麼時候嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4494.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4513.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
如果支銷的話應該是在這幾天應該如果是拍板定案應該就就會對外界的公告也就是說這個辦法不會實施那不會實施就不會有現在所產生的這一些的問題包括夜間包括你你事主要自行到要舉一次購買 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4514.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4530.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
一次性 一支性 然後一個的這樣的一個束縛還有標籤的束縛 那還有這些像譬如說氧氣桶氧氣桶的供應的問題等等這些實務上的問題大概都可以獲得解決應該署長你來要叫做有備而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4535.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4557.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
但是我覺得你們有備而來,反而會讓我覺得你們已經前面捅了一個窟窿這麼大了,然後這麼大的一個讓外界對政府訂定的相關的這樣的一個管理辦法,是用一個表決方式來讓它一語延期之後,然後又要再訂定一個新的辦法,然後到現在, |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4558.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4577.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
講的是會更加周全因為施工背景不一樣所以原有的辦法裡面主動的願意把它廢棄掉把它註銷掉但是你還是一樣沒有辦法答覆委員會說那你新的辦法的範疇內容到底跟衛務部的溝通會不會更加的順暢 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4578.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4592.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
然後迎刃而起的是在第幾條裡面的範圍是已經跟衛務部還有相關的單位相關的團體代表都已經溝通了所以訂這個辦法之後預告應該可以很盡快的就來做這個程序上的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4593.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4613.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
報告委員我剛剛應該答覆的內容是肯定的也就是說剛剛所講說兩部之間的溝通的會議朝向的方向解決的目標其實這個都已經有快速的凝聚共識了所以我們就可以往這個更周延的辦法那我就最後聽你一句話就好你的快速是多快速一個禮拜兩個禮拜三個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4622.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4648.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好 謝謝主席謝謝劉建國委員的諮詢謝謝石部長 杜署長謝謝委員現在請王玉明委員諮詢好 謝謝主席我們是不是有請部長跟房檢署的署長好 請石部長署長王委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4651.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4669.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
部長早這個我還是延續剛剛委員大家在關心的有關於動物用藥的這個問題因為我聽到你們回覆前面幾位委員我現在有幾個問題想要理清第一個現在的這個公告的辦法一定會註銷對不對就這兩天 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4672.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4693.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是一定會註銷讓他失效就應該說目前這個農業部依照動保法第四條第三項所公告的這個管理辦法會先取消然後再嚴定一個更周延那這個空窗期就是會確保所有的動物用藥都沒有問題對那他引用的是是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4694.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4721.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
用動保法第四條第二項的規定因為在這個動保法第四條第二項就已經明定了這個當動物用藥不足的時候那麼獸醫師得以使用人用藥品那麼意思就是說既然可以使用那麼藥品的供應就不應該斷這個有障礙反正我們學衆的後面的點是在這個藥品的安全管理上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4722.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4743.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那這樣還有需要再重新公告一個辦法嗎如果把辦法註銷回到動保法之後那公要也無語還需要再另訂新辦法嗎有 因為在這個動保法第4條第3條明訂那麼前項這些人用藥品怎麼樣用到這個動物身上的相關的使用管理規定它要由主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4744.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4770.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
你們現在沒有訂的情況底下不是反而是你要上路之後才引發問題沒有上路反而是沒有問題你現在是這樣子應該是這樣講就是說在過去一段時間本來已經在農業部訂的這個授權辦法裡面那麼有提到這個相關的人用藥品要用到動物上面的時候他要經過一些行政程序比如說他怎麼樣成為一個動物保護用藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4772.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4792.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那麼他的這個申請程序登錄程序是什麼等等那麼但是呢這個程序上可能要再更簡化因為目前所公告的701項這個得用於動物的人用藥品裡面只有這個200多項按照這個辦法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4794.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4814.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個申請登錄為動物保護用藥所以還因為一旦成為動物保護用藥的時候藥商就可以直接供應在這個辦法裡面是這樣子定所以就會產生另外還有將近500種的藥品是沒有辦法從藥商直接供應造成剛剛說到取得上的一些不方便性所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4816.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4826.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個部分包含這個如何成為動物保護用藥的程序如何簡化輔導那麼另外在使用上如何流向的管理去強化這個是關鍵那你們兩個部會已經有共識了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4830.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4855.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
有個初步的共識我剛剛提到的就是我們一些初步的共識所以辦法就是新的辦法公告之後可以確保這七百零一項藥品不會經過冗長的行政程序而且也不用再去登記它直接就會被公告變成是動物用藥嗎我們是朝這個對我們朝這個方向對朝這個方向去就直接公告它就是動物保護藥那你們現在還有什麼問題是沒有處理的沒有共識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4858.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4862.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
如果有也可以很快就修正辦法不是直接就上路就好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4863.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4889.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這個真正進行的行政程序是房檢署來進行我知道那你們現在到底還有什麼問題沒有解關鍵就是這701項用藥讓他更快速的直接公告變成是動物用藥嗎不是嗎那你們還有什麼細節或是行政的作業是兩個部會現在喬不定的還需要商議的如果沒有最少這個辦法可以很快速的公告來局長你說謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4892.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4906.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為原來在這個制度設計的時候其中有一項就是人用藥那你經過登錄以後轉為東寶用藥那以目前為止的話我們即便廣度的去邀他但也只有144項然後只有216件 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4908.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4913.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那現在的701項如果直接轉為動保用藥那當然我們可以快速來處理這個問題但他的背後有藥證的大概1萬多張所以他可能是會一個爆量那爆量這不僅僅問題是後續假設這1萬多間的藥證701項的話這些我們都要對接到食藥署的相關的資訊那我才有辦法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4933.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4961.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
他的這個紀錄跟流向的管控那如果說這一些我們都沒有辦法掌握的話那麼即便衝出上路了但是會回到那個流向的管理上會失控所以一定要確保我們在後續的這一些都要對接好了我們再上路所以容我們有一點時間跟食藥署把這一些的資料庫整個重新建檔然後依照我們要求他填報的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4962.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4983.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
資料品項欄位等等都對接清楚所以我們現在已經往這個大方向在做執行了那你需要多少時間你這個新的辦法你們這樣的一個對接還需要多少時間因為那一天開會的時候那部長這邊也也都允諾有共識說這個資料會讓我們來對接所以我們會最快的時間來跟他對接最快是多快我們也希望說能夠最 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4990.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5000.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
其實也跟委員報告就是說我們這個誰能回答這一題 來 食藥署署長要回答是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5003.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5024.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們其實有一些共識我們也幫忙想了一些辦法就在短期我們在人類用藥的部分可以從我們藥商藥局經商的藥局等等到動物的機構去短期我們只要有運銷紀錄很清楚可以對得起來可是中長期的話因為短期的時候讓公藥就能夠穩定不會斷掉但是中長期的確需要一個資訊的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5025.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5034.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那我們在藥品的追追追系統裡面在我們的藥商在我們的中盤商裡面都可以確定所以我們從我們這邊可以抓到出貨的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5036.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5064.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
在農業部的部分在使用端在診所在動物醫院裡面的雙方能夠勾基讓我們最擔心的部分能夠被確保那需要多少時間我問的是需要多少時間那個運銷紀錄應該即刻就可以有運銷紀錄就可以了對那你整個的勾基你的那個資料跟委員說明這個大概有兩個層面要處理第一個就是因為他這個辦法要修訂所以修訂他還是需要找相關的stakeholder來討論那你們不是現在共識已經很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5064.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5094.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那個是我們內部的行政作業的共識但是我們還是要聽聽stakeholder包含獸醫師包含這些事主大家的意見那麼還有中間可能牽涉到藥商藥局這個還是需要有一些會議討論然後進行法制作業那第二個後面的程序上它有兩個程序需要把它資訊的資訊流要把它完備一個是藥品的流向資訊第二個是使用的這個登錄因為我們能用藥品多數健保 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5095.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5119.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我知道 我要問的就是你們需要多少時間這個要兩個系統這個系統因為在目前來講這個農業部這邊的系統是要新建的所以它會比較多一點時間那我們這個系統是ready的只是協助對接所以要多少時間 你們回答不出來這個要看那個房間署的評估署長你們需要多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5121.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5146.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
其實以現在來講 懲判單位因為這個回到還是落實在基層那以基層來講他整個現在所有的系統要重新重置 或者那個其實真的就在花時間那原來他們的評估是希望一年半把整個系統嫁接因為一年半 除了食藥署還有那個疾管署疾管署的都要嫁接還有新制 那我現在我想我們會盡量縮短就是假設這個順暢的話我覺得再縮短 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5148.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5150.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
對如果可以的話我們再把這個系統上趕快對接然後越早完成我們越早宣告要求就是在你的新辦法還沒有公告上路之前這個動物用藥的藥品絕對不能短缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5165.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5182.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
要供應無虞這是第一件第二件一年內你們這個新的機制一定走中長期你要把它建置是完整的就是從登錄到它的流向管理你是一套完整的制度那如果是這樣代表你前面的辦法你這兩年你根本你們都沒有想到這些問題配套也沒有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5184.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5199.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
有 我再跟委員報告就是因為我還有下一題要問反正就是你們往這個目標去做接下來我要問的是食安的問題因為今天這個我們經貿談判辦公室我們的代表是沒有到今天派的是執行秘書經貿談判辦公室來這個徐執密也請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5203.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5216.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這一次的ART的談判 我們可以看到在食安的部分 我們做了非常大的退讓我自己的觀察 你的源頭把關已經被破防了食安五環也破工了 食安防線棄守 我們一個一個來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5219.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5233.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這一次你們談的成果基本上我們跟美國的經貿談判你可以談但是食品安全為什麼我們對於食品的把關我們要棄守這一點是我非常不能接受的第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5234.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5240.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我們過去在管理這個豬肉美豬進口的時候當時的蘇貞昌院長他說我們會有很好的一套的管理措施大家不用怕這個就是我們對於食安的保證第一個最重要的是產地的茶廠從源頭去管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5251.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5279.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
結果這次的談判我要問經貿辦你們的談判怎麼會去同意就是我們可以不用事先這個去茶廠然後就可以進來就可以長驅直入各位人說明這個茶廠這個我們源頭管理還是有的有嗎我們有系統性茶盒跟茶廠那這個部分沒有讓步沒有沒有沒有讓步那為什麼這個出來的報告是這樣子寫就是說美方要求就是沒有茶廠這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5279.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5306.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有有有查場可以查場我要確定這件事我們去年才去查過啊所以ART簽了之後還是可以查場可以可以可以另外一個我們這兩塊一個叫系統性查核就是整個制度的review第二個就是查場查場非常重要所以我要問的是這個絕對是不能放掉沒有問題的這個沒有改變沒有改變另外一個是那個秦出肉品的管制措施就是說美方現在說他提供名單我們就要照單全售 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5306.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5329.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
就是我們不再由防檢署來認定是不是這樣這個系統性查核的概念就是這樣就是用一個國家的它的這個品質管控制度去認可那我們就會就像GMP沒有過去我們的防檢署還要再認可一遍我們是主權國家怎麼可以是美方開端我們就照單全收 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5331.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5357.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以這個沒有改變嗎所以世界各國裡面我們系統性查核確定這個制度對接所以它制度裡面允許的就像我們也希望是我們允許的我們制度裡面允許一樣可以得到但是當對方要求他其實就是要我們的許可的時候我們還是有許可的功能現在是不是沒有了透過系統性查核才能夠有這樣的制度我們跟其他國家也是這樣我們現在是不是沒有許可權了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5359.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5373.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
還有最終許可權還是有對不對這一個源頭的管理我覺得非常重要如果是這個棄守我覺得我們的食安源頭就是破防沒有沒有這個還是要經過系統性查核那另外一個就是邊境的逐批查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5374.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5394.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們還可以做到百分之百的逐批查驗嗎美方是不是要求我們要放棄百分之百逐批查驗應該是這樣子講就是說我們現在只有針對美方這個國家做逐批查驗是啊 因為他們還有萊克多巴胺啊但是我們查了這麼多批之後呢都是合格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5394.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5415.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
都是合格 所以才會回到常態你的常態是幾%就是它有這個來那個說明一下它是查到有問題的時候才會再增加查核的所以你就不百分之百逐批查驗了嗎我們回到我們常態性的因為常態性的查驗的話其實是2到10%的查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5418.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5436.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
因為過去的經驗裡面我們已經查數萬批裡面都是正常人我跟委員報告去年我們有萊克多巴胺澳洲的豬腳嘛我親自去看了一趟澳洲的豬腳養豬場屠宰場等等那個是我在委員會要求的我親自去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5436.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5463.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
去看了結果我看到有三分之一的台灣整個場面有三分之一台灣的孩子在那邊為這個豬場在努力所謂打工換宿那我們看到他的整個制度化裡面在做這件事情也了解他們的實際上的狀況所以上次也是房檢署跟食藥署共同前去對於這個所以這個是邊境外去除非查驗去查場之後系統性查核到我們邊境就要按照所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5464.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5468.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
風險我們現在叫border protection intelligence這個署長你暫時先不用講我們之所以對於美國的豬肉採取更嚴格的把關是因為我們開放了讓他允許有萊克多巴胺的美豬可以進到台灣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5482.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5503.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所以當時蘇貞昌院長才說大家放心我會百分之百逐批的查驗我的百分之百逐批的查驗是讓我不會有高過這個比例的收入金混到市場來因為你這個就是開放了你不要把它跟其他國家又混為一談我今天要問的這個就是我們放棄了百分之百逐批查驗這個就是事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5505.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5519.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這回到我們的風險查核方式啦按照我們對所有國家進來的我知道 但當時蘇貞昌院長承諾不是這樣子嘛你們現在不要把一般性的查驗又拿回來談我要講的是你這個已經放鬆但是你的來季的標準又放寬我們看一下下一張你的這個來季的標準你的租雜稅 你知道嗎日本是0.04ppm |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5533.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5558.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
韓國基本上是不得檢出個案是0.01我們這次ART之後你要放寬到0.09ppm這是不是事實我們找到的數據是不是事實那你就是比原來的你的這個是暴增9倍喔那這樣的情況底下你邊境你還不逐批抽那你怎麼知道他有沒有超過這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5559.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5576.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
先跟委員報告一下因為ART裡面內容其實針對是我們採取的是以國際的標準以Codex標準如果Codex沒有訂才會有另外一部分的一個思考那我就問你租雜稅你到底訂多少我們對於相關的一個規定是以國際對接的一個那有什麼國際標準日本0.04ppm 韓國是0.01啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5579.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5605.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我們這邊是提到跟CODEX的對接所以就是0.09ppm嘛對,跟CODEX的對接那我要問你的就是你現在租紮你的來地容許量是暴增9倍你跟原來的是暴增9倍在這樣的情況底下你邊境又不採取百分之百逐批查驗然後讓你看一個數字就是美國的租內帳進到台灣現在如果跟110年比較起來114年已經來到7681公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5609.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5624.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我就問你 這一些豬雜 豬內臟它的流向都流到哪裡去未來ART之後 它是成長的九倍 它的含量是九倍你要不要管制 它是不是流向小吃攤我們還有縣市 就是說鼓勵大家這個台灣豬還舉辦了小吃大賽 還有黑白切今天的這一些豬雜 其實就是黑白切裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5637.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5664.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我跟委員說明澄清一下這些資訊在這個豬肝豬腎的部分日本韓國新加坡的標準都是跟Codex一致那我們現在也是跟Codex一致也就是說在肝的部分是0.04腎的部分是0.09其他的可食用部分是採取其中較低者我們大概的這個標準都會跟Codex是一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5665.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5680.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
你的較低者是多少?就是0.09ppm嗎?我們是肝腎那我就問你豬大腸是多少?豬大腸其他的話我們如果沒有特別去的話就是採肝腎比較低的就是0.04你豬大腸現在是0.04然後那個豬的肝臉呢?豬的肝臉他是算肌肉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5692.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5701.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
他沒有算在豬雜裡面沒有啊眼頰肉也是肌肉所以是0.01肉的是0.01啊所以大腸小腸你現在是0.04但是肝腎是0.09不是肝是0.04腎是0.09這個都是Cortex的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5708.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5724.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以你其他沒有比日韓高沒有日韓新加坡都一致你提供一個數據給我沒有問題我們把這個國際對照跟各國的對照的我現在最關切的是我們跟澳洲在澳洲日本韓國新加坡都是一致的甘0.04剩0.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5727.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5743.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好你這個數據你要確定你是正確的然後你要提供給我因為我們辦公室找到的資料是我們現在是比日韓還要高沒有沒有沒有我們跟日韓一樣我們是按照Codex的標準他們也是Codex的標準他們兩個的標準也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5743.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5767.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
沒有 他們兩個的就是Codex的標準 我們這邊看到的就是好 你把資料提供給我 我會再去核對喔那我要問你的就是 我們現在顯然是放寬然後放寬了之後 我要問你的是我們這一些冷凍的豬雜 你的流向到底流去哪裡我們現在市面上其實都看不到 然後它未來的這個含量是變高的請問它是流向哪裡 你們有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5769.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5790.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這如果以114年來講7681公噸的豬雜流向流去了哪裡做了什麼食品流到了小吃攤嗎你們到底整個食藥署有沒有掌握流向跟委員報告一下我們其他可食部位的數字與美國的部分那以今年度進來的是有1746 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5793.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5808.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
目前今年的數字是這樣那其中我們特別看一下有沒有所謂的租聖的進來其實是都沒有進來所以租的早對今年度最新的那我們整體的看起來那進口租是佔百分之八 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5809.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5830.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
百分之九十二是我們的我要知道他的旅遊箱到底去了哪裡因為市面上大家都不知道你們標示也沒有在做也沒有人看到跟委員講我們現在的原料原產地包裝食品散裝食品或者職工場所我們都有去稽查像今年對不對整個去年度我們整個稽查九千多件有兩件沒有標示好的這兩件都是台灣豬沒有標好 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5831.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5836.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不管是哪裡不管台灣豬還是國外豬我們通通都會來你給我一個報告你要告訴我以114年為例進口的這些雜碎就是豬雜它的流向它的體向它的流向然後那個比例佔多少你們都有掌握把報告提供給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5851.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5877.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
因為民眾都不知道那因為這是食安的問題你們這一開放之後事實上我們吃的比例就會高我們國人的食用習慣習慣去吃這些內臟所以這個是你們食安要把關好的我覺得民眾有選擇權基本上我是反對在這個食安裡面去做讓步的我們台美的經貿經貿的一些交換有很多可以交換但是食品安全不能交換還有最後提醒一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5878.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5899.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
基改食品絕對不能進校園絕對不能進校園部長你可以承諾嗎跟委員說明我的立場跟您一樣健康不能退讓所以我們所有的調整跟國際的接軌也都是經過健康風險評估我們來把關的那基改的所有的管理作為沒有任何改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5900.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5921.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不會 不會進校園我要你承諾不會嘛 這個是很多家長很擔心的怕我們一讓再讓之後 孩子的健康都出賣了這個是絕對不允許的 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝王一鳴委員的諮詢這次宣告待會邱惠璐委員尋答完休息十分鐘現在請蘇清泉委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5931.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5950.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
謝謝主席今天排的題目非常非常好有三個問題請我們的市部長有請市部長市要署都立法署長市要署市委員早江志剛署長待會黃田署署長也會上來第一個問題我們現在進口的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5956.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5978.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
美國、歐盟或日本的原廠藥我們現在進到台灣我們課的關稅是多少0沒有關稅啦那個學民藥也是0都是一樣都是0那我們出口到美國或者歐盟的原料藥他們課我們多少關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5981.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5999.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
應該是這樣子講 就是說在當然最近那個美國有宣布他是對這個專利期內的藥跟其原料藥才課稅所以其他的這個學名藥的原料藥還有學名藥那麼到美國還是沒有關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6000.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6022.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
阿川普是在說什麼,我是在撒謊阿我們現在的原料藥,台灣也有幾個藥廠在做原料藥阿因為成本很高阿因為我們偉大的事務長跟健保處我們沒有供應到美國的專利藥的原料藥所以對我們沒有影響阿如果是學名藥的原料藥?也沒有課稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6023.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6047.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那他現在要扣是扣專利藥就是那個新藥啦專利藥集齊原料藥集齊原料藥所以我們台灣沒有在做這個我們這個專利藥輸美的只有一個啊這個藥廠已經在美國也要設廠了所以也不受影響所以他在說什麼跟我們沒關係沒關係沒有影響好那第二個問題我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6051.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6060.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
最近我們部長有講說因為我們的原料藥大部分都來自印度跟中國大陸對不對原料藥嘛對全球都這樣日本、韓國、台灣是要做一個聯盟自己來開發這個行得通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6070.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6096.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
應該這麼說就是各國現在也都重視到這個多元分散那個原料要來源啦所以我們也有一個叫做這個國家藥品韌性整備計畫裡面就打算要來鼓勵在台灣開發原料要啦但是我們也不可能全部的原料要都自己做啦因為這個是一個高污染的產業那也沒那麼多所以需要跟其他的這個友好國家大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6097.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6126.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個建立這個非紅供應鏈啦所以大概有這樣的構思在努力因為原料最原始的原料就是礦區出來然後再去墮碎然後再去分提煉分解那個一定是要國家很大眾生夠因為那個是汙染還會有時候要爆炸所以一定是那種澳洲啦中國大陸印度這種大國才有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6128.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6145.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們這裡只能開中間的,中間的原料藥的後面那一段我們也有原料藥廠,我們有幾家原料藥廠再來時間有限,我不想像汪玉敏這樣講那麼久第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6147.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6162.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們馬鈴薯因為現在所有的管理長大家都很歡樂的馬鈴薯以前是如果化解我們小時候在健康期就知道化解後它會臭氧臭氧裡面一定有一些化學物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6163.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6184.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那這個叫做ソラリン嘛 它會產生ソラリン那ソラリン怎麼會翻成龍奎簡這個是誰翻的啊 哪一個天才啊我們這些外來語到底就是喪在翻裂的啊你看日本的外來語是都很有藝術的我們說哇 ソラリン 這個是什麼東東啊叫做龍奎簡 這是石藥師江志剛你發明的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6193.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6207.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 那這種以前是整批退現在美國要求我們要場子裡面拿回去然後自己分 把它炒香的吃吃掉就可以做洋芋片啊 什麼這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6211.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6238.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我們是這樣第一個要先強化這個源頭管理所以在這個美國他在那邊要出口之前他就要去強化檢疫規定包含要噴灑這個叫做那個發芽劑那個發芽的抑制劑他要噴灑然後要去通過我們這個防檢署相關的這個檢疫規定所以說完成OK了之後他才可以上傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6240.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6266.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那因為如果在這個船運過程當中有發生這個腐爛的情形的話當然如果你整批太高的比例還是會退運的那如果只是部分的話那它就經過特殊的封裝處理到加工地點再去做剔除啦 是這樣因為我們屏東黃山 它仿良那邊的芒果要銷日本那芒果的皮薄薄的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6267.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6290.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
如果那些藥丟兩下去,就一點點黑掉所以就要烘過,燒煙燻,可能部長也不知道以後有機會帶你去看看啦有的是用那五十五度的水把它燙過,這樣它那兩下去會死去如果不去跟日本,如果有健康能補財,日本是整個在消費 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6292.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6309.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
整批 整貨就給你銷毀所以沒有在地銷的所以你們在把關你們在把關要 要 要 要 嚴格 不能這樣他美國講什麼 你做什麼不會 因為他進到台灣之後加工處理的這個地點也是要我們許可的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6310.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6333.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以它的那個加工那個食品加工的那個許可再製的話我們會特別的去強化管理因為這個根莖裂它如果發芽之後產生那個索拉磷這個成年人吃了其實老闆娘嘛欸 孩子啊是會抽筋耶你神經系統受不了耶 有的會翹起耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6334.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6347.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以我們都是醫生 你就要把關給誰不要發生命案 那時候你也受不了了那第二個就是剛剛有講基改的食品不能進校園 因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6349.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6370.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
現在的國中國小現在的營養午餐現在各縣市好像都承諾要免費由政府來支出台北市一餐是75塊我們屏東是57塊我們屏東比較小一點就對了好這些基改的食品你剛剛有承諾說不會進嗎不會進校園嗎那有入華的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6374.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6383.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
有入法的嗎有嘛齁好那再來就是寒萊克多巴胺的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6384.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6404.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
也不能進校園 現在是沒有進校園沒有 現在是百分之百用國產租那這個不要再讓他們進到校園去是的 四年來百分之百百分之百 這個很重要 這個不能開玩笑的所以這三樣都要很小心好 來 再來黃田署站起來我們現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6410.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6424.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
動物用藥跟人的要流用是在我第八屆的時候那個時候部長你現在做醫事司長那個時辰在這裡就在這裡檢討 幾行幾行要讓人人可以養 動物可以養我們現在的動物用藥全台灣從女兒到我的毛小孩總共兩百八十幾萬隻要到三百萬隻三百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6440.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6451.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以現在照顧毛小孩的這些年輕人,他們把他當作是家人所以健保的可能不是2300萬人,是要2670萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6456.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6481.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
後面 這樣可以同意嗎好我再拉一條這30%是動物用藥 70%都是流用的好啦 那現在開放到剛剛講是200多種了 是不是現在要開放的話都701項 還會再增加我要替這些毛小孩的事主講講話因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6484.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6502.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
簡報是因為石崇洋部長跟健保署強砍 一直砍 一直壓所以健保的藥價都很合理 很低所以大家都這樣犀利現在豆腐用藥進木前是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6507.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6521.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們醫師是涵蓋中醫、西醫、亞醫那獸醫是農業部發的證照所以獸醫開出來的處方是獸醫師自己調劑、自己給藥、自己收費沒有藥師嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6523.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6549.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
要是沒有介入嘛那你現在這些毛小孩的素質 他們的負擔太大嘛我感覺他們的顏色太貴嘛他們如果像健保這樣搶的 他們就很合理的啦所以現在的問題是出於錢的問題嘛你一直貴 吸血管用藥 癌症用藥這些素質怎麼負擔得起呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6550.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6565.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那你現在是想把這些獸醫師開處方因為他的獸醫的診所啦什麼也好他沒有辦法備那麼多種藥嘛所以他都處方整個要去藥局尿嘛藥局尿大家都睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嘛所以有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6572.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6585.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
藥局來跟便宜釣魚或要去給動物用的,我都搞不清楚,你現在是怎樣規範所以主席今天提這個題目非常好,至少要把它釐清嘛,我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6587.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6603.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
對 完全這個委員講的我完全同意就是在這個動物的這個治療上面是沒有醫藥分業它就是由這個獸醫師直接就可以提供藥物那只不過是因為現在它用到了人用藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6604.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6633.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那人用藥基於我們是主管機關的立場必須要掌握流向那麼一方面也要注意到這些用藥的安全包含不要因為濫用造成抗藥性的問題這個會回過頭來危害到人體健康跟我們未來使用藥物的選擇那另外也有一些比較高風險的藥物的管理像麻醉的用藥啦這些鎮定安眠的用藥那麼也避免人跟動物之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6634.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6659.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
然後老來老去 總是不知道會不會倒掉所以上次我們這個過去健保管得這麼好所以這個是不希望有這個藥品管理的漏洞把這一塊納到健保署來管理可以啊可以嗎食藥署來管理啊我們現在是 我真的很擔心因為我是臨床醫師 我是心臟科醫師你是急診科 你是腎臟科 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6664.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6671.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
麻醉的藥FG的藥那這些東西是很可怕的如果流用出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6674.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6697.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
報告委員 每一顆都歷歷皆清楚 流向絕對掌握的這我們都要把它管控得很好啦就是要管控得很好所以我們現在也在跟農業部跟他合作嘛就是讓我們兩邊的這個系統可以解決一方面這個藥商供藥的流向在哪裡然後使用的量如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6698.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6710.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這樣我們才能夠公積 確保這個不管是動物要用藥 還是要人用藥都能夠穩定供應人用藥的劑量是跟狼犬一樣這個是我念到的 我們今天也記 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6711.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6736.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那所以這個動物用藥跟人的用藥會不會流用我比較擔心的是一些管制藥品跟麻酸藥品這個真的會出事而且現在的量那麼大而且不要讓這些宿主負擔太大因為這個我們到獸醫店去獸醫師那邊去我覺得都很貴那個動物小旅館都要一天多少錢多少錢比健保還貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6738.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6762.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你知道嗎?所以健保局實際上就是夭壽的所以這一塊一定要好好的管理那你要嘛就他們開廚房前全部都到健保要求去領藥至少藥師也可以管制一下雖然那事不上這些藥師也去受一些這些的訓練讓他們有本質血能能增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6763.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6791.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不然的話那我們的藥師這一塊也是沒有所以我們現在初步的規劃方向也是雙軌制一方面是可以常用備藥的話可以從藥商或藥局直接供應或者是因為不是常備的部分備不足的部分可以到藥局因為比較方便也可以去拿所以是朝向用雙軌制的方式來重新規劃這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6793.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6812.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
杜署長我要講,現在我們的健保藥局,如果我看不到很多行,他們會去物流那裡調,調之後再栽培過來,然後藥水再發給我們的病人,那這樣是很上軌道的,那你健保藥局,如果你 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6813.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6842.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
你那個獸醫師不可能看這麼多藥嘛,他靠可能,他就把頓藥就倒了所以一定拿來藥取,健保藥取這樣唸啊健保藥取這樣阿婆管制,阿婆就我們的知識啊一些管制藥,一些麻醉藥那個甚至會出問題然後裡面的對獸醫師的管理有那麼嚴格嘛然後他自己開除方,自己調藥,自己配藥,然後自己藥藥藥品的副作用,交叉反應那個會不會過量,會不會死掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6842.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6864.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那個都是因為現在養寵物的人那麼多所以今天沒時間講到經濟動物那個更大一塊但是這些寵物毛小孩這邊很多年輕人這樣我們是要很小心那獸醫師這邊怎麼管理現在獸醫師有幾個目前全台灣的獸醫師大概有6000多位 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6865.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6877.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
六千多,那跟中醫是差不多啦那有兩千多家的動物醫院,就是獸醫的診療機構,就是動物醫院所以這一塊,暫緩實施,我也不知道是在暫緩實施什麼,是現在這樣繼續這樣繼續這樣,我皮膚這樣齁,沒中你是最高的,你要講話我先,沒辦法講 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6890.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6907.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
應該是說我們要在最短的時間內重新檢討那個辦法因為那個辦法裡面它涉及到要如何成為這個保護用藥動物保護用藥的程序相關的規定還有使用上的規定要趕快重新檢視我們會盡快的時間內去訂出新的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6912.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6931.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
做醫師、藥師還要管理辦法還有藥品還有一些危險藥品高菌性藥品都要好好的管理蘇董你跟衛福部要好好好啊,感到好血是,是,不過委員就是因為原來辦法裡面有一些可能沒有規定的細節上會 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6934.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6959.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
沒有辦法也符合到現在目前的一個期待啦所以說我們現在要收回這個辦法的時候都會將社會各界的意見包括雙方相關利害關係人還有我們兩個單位的意見我想大家都會做一個綜合考慮那以及解決到我們現在的寵物就是我們的犬貓跟非激進動物牠們的生命權跟醫療權的保障之下往這個更完善的制度方面來進行以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6961.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6968.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
攜帶不一樣啦 我們要面對問題 解決問題啦加油 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝首席選委的質詢現在請邱振軍委員質詢主席好 我們請石部長還有我們這個房檢署杜署長有請杜立華署長及石沉良部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6991.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6992.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
主委人早部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6994.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7021.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我想請問一下今年4月8號我們總統府這個國策顧問黃金順在媒體投書說113年通過這套這個能用藥品用於這個犬貓管理辦法是藥師獸醫師事主團體共同努力下推這個通過的過去的會議紀錄裡面你們在訂定這個管理辦法的時候藥師工會是不是強力要求人藥除登錄外全數回歸這個藥局來供應 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7023.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7024.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
報告委員,因為這個是雙部會選公告,那也會爭取到不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7039.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7060.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
還是他的身份比較特殊 你們不敢講不是 不是 這個制度的建立的時候 形成的時候其實還是會廣伸大家的意見好啦 當時我們陳俊吉部長跟薛立原前部長一起發布的我們看一下104年 民委會在公告的時候說獸醫師使用人用藥物可直接向藥商購買那108年1月 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7064.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7086.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
藥師公會這個藥師公建議書主張要留藥局重點在於說本會建議能用藥物用於犬貓及非經濟動物依法應納入藥師管理獸醫師則應居於這個診療治療之角色開立處房間再由獸醫師或向民眾向社區藥局取得藥物 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7087.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7106.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那藥食品質專業這個動物用藥的把關使得保障這個動物健康及全民用藥的環境就是113年通過的版本那獸醫師開藥 事主呢然後去藥局領藥然後再拿回去給這個獸醫師治療嘛當時是這個黃金順是這個產務監事而且已經是內定的這個準理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7114.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7132.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那108年10月呢黃金順這個正式接任這個理事長之後呢接受媒體採訪的時候他說論期內他希望推動這個單軌制完成這個醫藥分業最後一塊拼圖對醫藥家透明化動物人用藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7133.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7146.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
中藥調劑問題 都堅持他的看法他說沒有人比藥師更懂藥每一種藥都有配五禁劑毛小孩用的藥應該由藥師做最後把關那我現在覺得 你們會不會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7149.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7157.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
來的有點突然他說藥要留在藥局藥師把關結果你們113年的管理辦法就變了然後大數在114年與115年的營運重點就是將人用藥轉寵物用的櫃位制度化 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7167.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7181.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
目標是全台一千家的門市達成社區滲透力的極大化你們按照黃金順的這個指示從108年1月18日的建議書開始衛福部跟農業部就乖乖的就遵他的指示這樣辦理你不覺得很奇怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7183.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7208.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
跟委員說明這個我剛剛已經提到說在動物治療上沒有所謂醫藥分業跟這個人用是不一樣藥師那個獸醫師是可以直接這個調劑提供治療因為你們第一你沒說這個獸醫的購藥權把104年的那個獸醫可直接買藥的草案直接這個就處理掉了那等於是把全台毛小孩用藥的採購權從獸醫院轉到了藥局嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7212.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7229.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
也不是這樣就是說在這個獸醫他還是可以直接購藥沒有問題只是說在這個辦法裡面呢把這個人用藥品可以用於動物的呢把它分成兩種一種就是已經議定出來的這個700多種的藥裡面來申報為重度保護用藥的藥商可以直接購還有500多項沒進來你怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7235.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7264.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
沒有進來的原來的規定它就是變成會到藥局可是這個就會造成取得上面的一些方便性的問題所以現在才把它暫時把它停下來重新再檢討當然這個方便性上要把它提高你們這個財團它的計畫馬上跑得比你們還快所以你們會不會以後就照他們的版本這樣走您說的是哪一個版本就是他講的就是到這個各藥局去領藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7265.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7284.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們的目前的這個雙方討論的大概是雙軌制就是他也可以直接跟藥商叫藥那但是不足的地方也可以到藥局去拿好啦我希望你們兩個部會因為時間不過兩個部會在這件事情上真的可以替我們毛小孩的生命這個為出發點慎重來處理那另外我們請經貿辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7293.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7312.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這個台美對等貿易協定就是ART的主文本這是最重要的法律框架內容涵蓋的關稅貿易這個數位貿易等那台美投資合作瞭解備忘錄MOU這是針對那五千億美元投資與半導體供應鏈合作的意向書沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7314.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7329.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
台美投資MOU是2500億的企業資助投資除了ART跟MOU2月12號在華府我們駐美代表談了幾個文件有多少份是換文還有多少是執行手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7331.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7347.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
2月12號在華府簽的那個ART的全文都已經公佈在網路上那為什麼美國人的報告裡面這個MRT裡面可以精準預測我們要改的這個食安數據是不是你們早就私下簽下了協定還是你們已經答應人家要放水 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7348.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7363.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
跟委員說明就是說在相關的一些這個殘留標準部分呢我們跟國際去對接接軌所以應該所提的應該是指的是那個CODES的國際標準對你們都照他的標準嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7364.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7378.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
國際標準 我們是希望在談判 包含非關稅的貿易壁壘就像檢驗標準 查驗方式 產業容許量等等以及換文跟執行手冊這些內容 未來會不會送立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7380.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7402.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們會按照規定什麼規定就如果是需要涉及到修法的部分呢那當然我們就一定按照程序送到立法院因為條約締結法第三條寫得非常清楚啦只要涉及人民權利跟義務涉及法律變更它就是條約那如果按照美國的要求開放基改食品你剛剛講說這個不會進來嘛對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7406.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7428.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那開放這個放寬碼鈴薯檢疫等標準還有來際的容許值呢如果是這個萊克多巴胺的MRL的部分這是在授權的法規我們會按照法治程序來進行那是不是你們他們是整包來談對不對那你是不是整包來談的時候你是不是整包要送到我們立法院來審議來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7430.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7459.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為他的這個範圍非常涉及層面很廣向委員報告就是有關於這個台美對等貿易協定的部分那之前這個本院長官已經有說明就是說將來會這個會把ART連同MOU送到立法院審議那目前是因為美國最高法院的判決之後導致這個ART的內容可能需要做必要的調整之後才能夠再送到立法院所以目前我們是我們希望知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7459.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7479.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
不是說我們今天討論說你們改了什麼而是我想要知道說美國這個MTE報告裡到底要求什麼是不是應該跟我們國人來說明如果涉及到法規要修訂的部分我們也都是採取公開透明的方式你們讓我感覺到說如果美國這樣要求你們會偷偷地改啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7479.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7502.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
不會不會不會所有都是按照這個法定的程序來做那屬於這個食品農產品的項目查驗方式如果要改成這個業者依循這個記錄的調整那就是記錄好的要這個降低標準然後逐批檢查被要求取消邊境程序被要求降低干預這些內容沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7503.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7510.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
應該是說回到我們的常規程序你們說今天你們報告裡面說邊境管理不便嘛對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7512.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7536.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
可是名稱不變做法有沒有改變沒有沒有沒有完全一樣嗎對對對好我們看這個萊克多巴胺好了這3月份公布的動物用藥殘留標準剛好跟美題的美國的這個MTE報告出爐差大概兩週那當然這份公告的這個PDF我們看一下朱聖這樣明明寫著0.04那後來幾天美國的報告確証這個我們臺灣已經答應0.09了 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7542.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7555.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
是美國人說謊還是我們自己調的?就你講的那個Codex那個嘛對不對?3月我們沒有去調整這個任何的產有標準因為那個還要就是你們官方的公告喔?這個公告主要 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7560.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7582.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
是針對那個名稱的部分去做調整而已 還沒有涉及到那個殘留標準你乾障的部分本來0.04嘛 你現在變成0.09啊你們3月有一個公告 可是不是在談那個殘留標準 不是這個好 那其他部位也一樣我們在跟委員釐清 這個公告並不是在調殘留標準這個你們官方公布的耶 我們去抓下來的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7584.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7609.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那個公佈前面都有一個修正重點那個只是名稱上的調整而已那個翻譯名稱啊牛也一樣嗎 未來牛也一樣嗎這個所有的MIL的標準我們都會總是調整我們用Codex的這個標準還是未來你們自己有沒有最低容許值還是以後就照他的標準我們會除有特殊的情形不然我們都按照Codex的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7612.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7629.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
特殊情形就是Codex的標準不不不Codex是一般國際的通用標準對啊你們碰到問題的時候就拿那個標準來跟我們講對不對那我們之前的設定的標準如果我們當時以前沒有設標準它就是零容許對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7631.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7640.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
對就是現在沒有這個標準那現在我們就按照Codex標準所以你們現在把方法改了啊不是嗎就是要按照我們盡量以前的規定以前規定那樣你們現在要這樣改 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7644.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7672.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
應該這麼說這個Codex的標準也是在2013年之後才有之前Codex也沒有標準是不是我們整個防線都改變了嗎是這樣嗎就因為關稅的關係因為國際的整個科學標準也在進步啦以前也是Codex沒有訂出標準Codex訂出標準之後我們來參考Codex的標準你可不可以在這些關稅之前你自己先訂一個標準不要等到這些東西來的時候你再去調整嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7672.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7692.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
喔 也可以啊 反正我們目前的這個作業也在進行中那我再問一下 這個發芽的馬鈴薯可以吃嗎應該是看它的那個部位啦 看看部位啦什麼叫部位就是看它的情形 情形也重不嚴重啦以前我們是驗到就整批推回去喔 那現在勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7694.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7720.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這個應該是這樣現在我們在整個的農業部說這是防疫管理的問題現在發芽的馬鈴薯可以整批進口進入加工廠你知道嗎所以它是防疫呢還是食安標準我跟你講這個部分是在防疫因為抑壓劑運的過程中還是有發芽可能負壓可能就會必須要剔除以前發芽就是整批退回啊美國說不行嘛所以我們就改了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7721.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7743.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
就改到去加工嘛那你加工的話你認為它是安全的食品嗎我們是從源頭先要求管理就是在美國境內處理的時候就要經過檢疫他們進來怎麼樣我不知道但是進來台灣的海關我們碰到這個問題我們怎麼處理我們就整批封存然後呢那麼到一個這個特定的加工處所去做剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7745.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7772.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
你們以前看到風險就直接擋嘛你們現在看到風險進來再說這個很多其他的國家都是這樣做就是到一個加工的地方去做剔除馬鈴薯只是其中一個案未來我認為你們所有的明天會不會有其他的這些問題部長我希望你做好你專業的這個工作去把這個事情把關我們都為國人的健康做把關好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7775.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7778.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
謝謝邱正軍委員的質詢 現在請邱惠潤委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7792.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7803.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
主席 各位政府部門的官員大家好那有請那個衛福部長 石部長然後有請石耀署的署長有請房間署的署長 謝謝邱委員早 署長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7810.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7823.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那部長還有兩位署長我今天是想跟三位請教關於犬貓非經濟動物用藥的問題好那我們先從這張PPT開始看齊那我要細說從頭從2012年開始細說那 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7828.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7842.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
2012年呢因為有發生獸醫使用了偽藥的情形那當然我們的主管機關在這邊也很盡責有加強的取締那取締之後的結果呢當然一些藥商呢他就不敢把藥物賣給這些獸醫院獸醫師那導致出來的問題呢就是獸醫師獸醫院要取藥變成困難重重這是2012的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7851.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7879.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那困難重重這問題當然獸醫界都一直不斷的在反映所以在2015年的時候呢就去修動保法的第四條那我想這些條文大家應該都非常熟悉就是提到說如果動物的這個藥物不足的時候中央主管機關公告之後可以使用這些人用的藥物這樣子好那現在問題出現了這是2015年的的修法那修法接觸了一個原則就是獸醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7881.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7903.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
院可以使用人用的藥物這是修法的原則但是可使用跟可取得是不是畫上等號呢我想不是畫上等號的所以才會導致從2015年一直到現在都有一些紛擾出現那獸醫可以使用這些人用的藥物那可不可以取得那當時我講的時空背景那不知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7906.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7927.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
署長 部長 不好意思 請問當時的時空背景 可使用人用的藥物 但可不可以取得可購買人用的藥物我想在他的這個使用管理上呢 在動把法第四條第三項有另外的授權辦法 透過這個辦法的制定之後來取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7928.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7955.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
對 但是這是2015的修法嘛可是你說的那個執法是2024才問世 才公告嘛那當然施行日期就是未來的7月1號只是目前看起來嘎然而止好 那我們回到2015年的時空環境受醫他可使用人用的藥物但是他的取得似乎受到藥事法50條的限制就是他沒有辦法直接跟藥商來購買直接跟藥商來取得那 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7956.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7982.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那我現在有一個問題要在這邊先暫停一下就是說因為您剛好像回答那個王育民委員嘛就是關於現在面對這些紛擾採取的制度就是公告制嘛公告制就是那701種品項呢全都不用再經過登錄然後就可以變成動保藥物嘛所以現在是不是701項都可以讓獸醫院跟獸醫師來直接跟藥商取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7985.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8011.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個應該這麼講在藥事法您這個是法律專家啦應該也很清楚在藥事法第一條就已經明訂本法沒有這個規定的地方從其他法律規定所以動物在用藥的部分它是用在動物保護法裡面的相關規定所以有它的規定那麼如何這個管理呢就是在這個動物保護法的相關規定裡面去處理那自然就可以供應 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8013.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8041.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我的問題一就是說2015的時空背景受醫他可使用人用的藥物但是呢卻沒有辦法取得跟購買因為他受到藥事法50條的限制嘛所以才會在這個動物保護法裡面去做這樣的從第四條第二項讓他得以使用那麼至於說他怎麼樣管理在第三項的授權那現在第三項已經嘎然而止了嘛目前已經嘎然而止 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8042.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8058.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
現在我們的現行機制我們會盡快把它來協助農業部在補助我瞭解 但我現在的問題就是說現在你們口頭上嘛承諾的方式就是把那701個品項全都透過公告制嘛然後讓受醫院受醫師可以直接跟藥商購買嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8059.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8069.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那剛王玉明委員請教你們這個機制很好因為可以解決目前紛亂的情境但是這個機制的法源依據您剛好像回答王玉明委員說法源依據就在動保法第四條第二項嘛那現在是2026那我比較疑問的是2026 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8076.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8092.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
第四條第二項可以作為大開方便之門的依據為什麼2015就不行那我的疑問是到底以動保法第四條第二項作為你們現在大開方便之門是不是一個足夠的法源我的問題是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8094.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8119.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
就是法源在第四條第二項跟第三項所以兩個要搭配起來是是是 當然問題是第三項你們有公告啊14日期在7月1號已經嘎然而止所以他等於是沒有他等於是沒有沒有他的執法等於是還來不及生效就胎死腹中了就是有法源啦那趕快去把它訂好我的疑問是 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8120.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8135.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
一條法源好像是因為時空背景不一樣在2015年變成在2015年他不是取得藥物的法源但是在2026年的今天就是取得藥物的法源我的問題是這樣那為什麼會產生這種差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8139.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8157.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
是因為無法可用然後是不是就是勉強去把凍保法因為凍保法已經存在凍保法的第四條第二項已經2015年就存在了啊怎麼那時候不能夠作為大開方便之門的法源啊現在就可以作為大開方便之門的法源從2015年到現在這個期間還是一樣繼續在供應的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8161.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8190.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
沒有問題啊是在供應但是他把它區分為兩種藥物如果是凍飽藥物的話就可以直接購買原本在第三項規定你的授權辦法在今年7月1號才會實施在這個之前是OK的在這個之前就是可以直接跟從第四條第二項去處理是嗎你確定嗎部長你確定是這樣嗎當然這個法的主管是這樣嗎因為藥事法50條就是限制受醫師可以去取得藥物 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8193.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8205.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
藥事法的第50條就是限制要那個獸醫師跟獸醫院可以直接去跟廠商購買藥物這邊跟委員稍微做一點點補充討論過程當中在108年其實針對剛才提到的辦法的實施之前我們就正式發函給所謂的藥業的工協會藥商人可供應人用藥品與動物診療機構所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8220.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8235.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個是在108年5月21號的時候呢針對這個議題我們已經知道所以到目前他這個辦法雖然說在研議或者未來的走向對藥商供應的部分目前都是沒有問題的藥商供應那你呢那你講的那些東西要透過登錄制嗎你說108年之後你公告的701項是要透過登錄制才能夠變成凍飽藥物才能夠直接跟藥商來取得嗎報告委員是我們這樣講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8251.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8272.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
當時108年的時候食藥署他有行個文給藥商跟藥局那在這個供應上是沒有問題的那因為後來凝聚了一個法那這個法規的時候他有一個轉介就是說人用藥要成為動保用藥才可以嘛對不對那所以這段時間他仍然在作業的時間還是一樣供應無虞他還是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8273.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8277.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
繼續運作那假設我這個辦法假設說我現在暫緩辦那也是一樣就是108年的那個還是繼續適用我想請教如果說現在我們註銷以後變成一個新的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8290.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8306.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那我想我們會重新解釋現有的法規裡面那假設不夠明確周全我想請教一件事因為越聽越混亂就是在今天之前因為我今天聽到一個最新的規定就是說那701樣也沒有所謂的登錄制只要我們主管機關這邊一聲令下公告701項他全都不用經過登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8311.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8336.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
藥商就可以直接去買這是今天以後的答案嘛那今天以前的機制不就是你人用的藥物有701項你要透過登錄你才能夠變成凍飽藥物藥商才能夠直接我想我有一些誤解啦有一些對這個法規的誤解在第四條的第二項凍飽法的第四條的第二項他授權主管機關公告公告之後的藥品品項受益室就可以取得使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8337.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8350.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以這個是在第四條第二項至於第四條第三項授權的辦法才在把這個第二項主管機關所公告的可使用於這個動物跟非經濟動物的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8353.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8373.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
人用藥品再把它分成保護用藥它是要採取登錄制跟其他然後供應的時候才有不一樣但是在這個辦法沒有實施之前就按照動保法的第四條第二項來執行所以只要主管機關公告的人用藥品藥商就直接可以供應 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8374.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8397.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那如果是這樣為什麼還要修法如果按照第四條第二項要修的是在第三項你也根本不用執法出來了要修的是第三項因為有需要相關的可是我覺得部長你的法律概念可能不清楚如果按照你的邏輯第三項我當然不會是用法法的主管機關但是在這個辦法在會嫌實施的時候我們都非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8397.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8416.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那麼這個授權的法規是在第四條的第三項我想您這邊是可能需要再進一步的來跟我們討論了解因為你的邏輯很明顯的矛盾你覺得按照第四條第二項就可以公告全部的藥品都可以使用也可以取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8428.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8437.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
對 非經濟 講到這邊 那就可以直接使用獸醫師就可以直接去購買嗎就是可以使用當然 不能購買怎麼使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8439.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8462.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個法律的邏輯是很清楚的因為受限於藥事法第五十條沒有沒有沒有 受限於藥事法第五十條變成這些獸醫師沒有辦法去購買本法沒有規定之處從其他法律規定你如果第四條第二項就你所列出來的藥物只要公告出來就可以取得它就符合我們藥事法第一條的中期從其他法律規定所以這個完全沒有問題在使用上完全合理那麼藥商也可以供應 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8468.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8477.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
部長部長你的第四條第三項還要去補充第二項不是補充第二項它不是它是授權法規第二項因為第二第三項是法規命令部長因為你這樣真的沒有辦法跟你好好討論我真的是完全的我只是對法源因為就如同你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8488.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8492.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
如果第四條第二項就可以讓獸醫師取得用藥權之外取得人體藥物的用藥權還可以讓他取得購買權的話可以使用當然就可以要取得不然如何使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8505.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8524.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那如果可以使用又可以取得為什麼現在過去十幾年有這個紛擾你給我答案啊大家就是因為取得紛擾的產生是因為7月1號要實施的新的辦法造成一些使用取得上的不便所以才來調整並不是取得上的問題為什麼7月1號這種法規命令的規定反而會提出第二項的規定這個符合啊你說沒有誤解因為你的第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8533.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8548.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
創造了新的遊戲規則問題是你的第三項去抵觸了第二項的法律這完全不符合法律的體力啊這完全不符合你用執法來如下第二項一定的程序產生那麼如果在這個ABC啊你的執法 你的第三項是執法執法去抵觸法律的規定那你為什麼需要去弄這樣的執法出來沒有這個抵觸 沒有抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8558.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8585.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
第二項只是在公告得以使用在動物身上的這個人用藥品我請那個房檢署的請問在今天以前在今天以前獸醫師他有人用藥物的使用權但是他有沒有所有人用藥物的取得權其實現在目前的過渡時間他使用都沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8587.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8587.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8603.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8625.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
取得沒有問題的法律沒有問題這是根據動保法第四條第二項那如果動保法第四條第二項可以使用為什麼在今日之前都沒有問題那為什麼還要再審議的第三項的授權辦法一旦實施之後造成部分取得的問題在它沒有實施之前是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8627.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8651.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你們現在不是已經發展7月以後的執法不是已經開始補充了那如果按照第四條第二項可以使用那為什麼還要修法根本就完全不用修法了啊你完全誤解啦你完全誤解我覺得這個沒有誤解我不接受這樣的指控我完全不接受這樣的指控然後我就指全國人民全國人民在看直播我問一個問題如果第四條第二項就可以作為取得的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8655.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8670.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
受益是取得要的法源依據為什麼你還要去修第三項你還要去修第三項而且現在根本就不用修法了啊剛黃毓民委員他跟我說第四條第二項竟然可以使用那你就不用修法了啊不是這樣嗎我完全不理解我完全不能夠理解部長我想請問一件事法規命令抵觸法律請問一下誰無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8686.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8706.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
法規命令抵觸法律則無效我想你的法律背景很清楚應該知道答案但你不知道答案啊我要給你尋尋善用啊那應該是法規命令無效吧對啊那你的第三項已經抵觸第二項了第一你為什麼要制定沒有抵觸你哪裡沒有抵觸你的執法就是讓大家請委員指教哪裡抵觸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8707.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8732.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
你的第二項你一直說第二項是法源第二項可以讓701項的藥品不只讓獸醫師使用還可以讓他購買你知道第二項解釋出來是這樣的結果可是你制定出來的執法卻是701項要區分為兩個部分一個叫人用的藥物一個叫做凍飽藥物凍飽藥物才可以讓獸醫師去使用那完全是抵觸了第二項的規定啊那是一個使用管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8736.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8753.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我不知道你為什麼要去制定一個抵觸母法第4條第2項的規定而且第4條第2項如果可以使用的話為什麼你們現在要修法如果第4條第2項可以使用在什麼過去12年一直到今年完全都是一個分島局面溫暖紀念的狀況我覺得部長你可能要去聽聽看獸醫師跟獸醫院的心聲他們過去12年到現在關於問 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8763.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8782.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
才會去支持這個農業部把這個辦法暫停不要實施然後重新再調整那好如果第四條第二項是法院那為什麼你還要修我就問嘛第四條第二項既然是法院為什麼還要用我們講的是辦法你講的是修法這兩回事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8783.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8802.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
不是 是王毓民委員剛才問你說如果你公告出來的都可以直接在藥商去購買那所以你現在的意思就是只要廢執法嘛母法不用修了嘛 你的意思是這樣因為你母法已經有法源了嘛母法不用修 凍保法不用修啊為什麼要修凍保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8804.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8825.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
因為動保法第二項他只賦予獸醫師可使用人用藥物他並沒有授予獸醫師可以直接跟藥商買藥物那請問可以使用但是不能取得那怎麼使用那過去12年就是有這樣的紛擾啊沒有問題啊也是因為有這樣的紛擾所以最近才有這樣的新聞啊這些四組獸醫師才會出來抗議啊那如果都沒有紛擾請問你為什麼要修法我沒有要修法啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8834.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8855.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
你沒有要修法 那我問你辦法 我們現在談的是辦法還是凍保法是法律還是授權辦法好 那我問你 你的執法要怎麼修你的執法要怎麼修我們現在就是按照授權辦法現在還沒有實施嘛所以現在聽到說那個不實施嘛所以我們現在要重新調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8856.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8863.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
調整的結果是什麼調整的結果是送醫師全部都可以直接跟藥商買藥物嗎這相關的一些使用規定要重新檢討不是 部長你現在好 你執法已經高然而止了嘛那你執法現在的方向是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8874.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8887.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
執法的方向這個授權的辦法的訂定當然是主管機關跟我們來彙弦規定所以相關的細節的部分我們之後都會再進行你問你執法裡頭你會不會規定成說所有公道的藥物 獸醫都可以直接購買 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8892.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8911.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
執法你會不會修成說我們還會再找獸醫師還有相關的stakeholder來討論然後這個法規也必須經過預告的程序我只能說部長你真的非常不識人間煙火你不知道過去2012年一直到今天2026年市主跟獸醫師對於沒有辦法直接取得藥品的匯報然後大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8914.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8917.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我認為在今日之前這些獸醫師取得藥品沒有問題但是您認為有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8930.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8936.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
他取得藥品怎麼會沒有問題現在的機制就是現在的機制完全可以合法去取得那請問一下為什麼過去12年有這些紛擾沒有紛擾 過去12年沒有紛擾現在的紛擾的才是7月1號如果實施的話才會有紛擾那所以你們的執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8949.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8954.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你們的執法為什麼會感染了你回答我執法為什麼你們要讓他開始因為我們認為7月1號這樣實施會有紛擾現在沒有紛擾你告訴我什麼紛擾沒有你就告訴我什麼紛擾7月1號實施的執法會有什麼紛擾因為現在沒有去強制規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8965.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8983.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
分成兩類一種是由藥商直接供應一種是由藥局供應目前沒有這樣分都可以7月1號的辦法時是就分流一種只能藥商供應一種只能藥局供應那這個在事實上確實會造成分老請問一下那個檔檢署是這樣嗎來告訴我們答案問題的其一部長講的也是其中的一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8991.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9012.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
以上怎麼樣也就是說像現在在這個辦法裡面人的用藥那你人用藥要經過登錄以後才能轉用藥所以這個會不跟你討論7月1號我跟你討論現行的現行的現行的那請問一下藥商獸醫師要如何取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9013.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9018.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
要如何現在現行規定就是藥商701種藥都可以跟藥商來買嗎報告委員目前的暫行的時候那個藥商是直接可以供應給售醫院的目前執行是這樣的那如果是這樣為什麼要修4條2項 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9033.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9062.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
沒有沒有沒有四條二項已經是法源了已經第四條二項已經是法源了現在是這個的管理辦法裡面那有很多就是當時的一個架構上是說人要歸人要那你要動保用藥那你要動保藥的機制去管它所以你要人用到這個登錄為動保用藥才可以使用但也因為說這個時空背景改變跟實際上真的會限制到現在目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9063.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9086.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
他們在做治療上的這個這些的使用的便利性跟即時性所以才會做大幅度的修正往更完善的方向來走我覺得我覺得我們的官員跟民間獸醫師跟這個事主的認知完全不一樣完全是兩個平行時空如果今天不是取得藥物有困難的話為什麼會有這麼沉痛的發生為什麼他們會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9091.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9108.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
在這個4月10號的公聽會你們招架不住然後呢會讓整個執法的實施感染而止不是那個包委員也就是說針對這個辦法裡面那收集大家的意見確實覺得有自愛難行就是說有些的結還是要打開所以才會慎重重視這個議題所以重新要來制定一個辦法一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9116.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9122.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
法規命令的這個辦法那依照一些相關不管動保也好或者動保法或其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9123.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9139.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
能夠讓我們請食藥署署長醫事法50條醫事法50條可以供應藥品的藥事法50條可以供應藥品的請你念一下好嗎第二款有哪些地方第二款醫院我幫你念診所機關團體學校的醫療機構或檢驗學術機構買賣請問一下這裡有提到售醫院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9147.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9171.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
評委員報告一下 您剛才提到的這個相冊這個上面都寫好就是因為對於人用藥品要供到動物醫院裡面在108年5月21號FDA藥治第108-901-4612號函之藥業工協會與房檢署人用藥品於用於犬貓及飛機動物之使用管理辦法正式實施前 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9172.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9189.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
就是現在就是實施前藥商仍可供應人用藥品與動物機構為應遵循相關的事項表示說這個沒有實施之前其實都可以供的所以這個一點就是因為預告好像是在7月1號本來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9190.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9206.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以就會有些改變在這改變沒有契約要還沒到之前其實都還沒發生都可以供那如果是這樣如果是這樣的話請問你要釋法要不要修因為你那個只是行政函事你的行政函事會不會有抵觸要釋法之慾你的行政函事是不是要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9207.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9225.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
部長他還特別提到了 因為藥術法沒有規定的地方其實在動保法裡面有相關的規定的時候他就可以按照那部分 當到一些公要那我現在請問一下我們的衛福部推給這個農業部嘛 去修法嘛那請問一下動保法裡頭可不可以來一條叫做不受醫事法50條的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9227.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9247.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們可以來一條這樣嗎 因為完全就是跟鑰匙法50條的限制跟委員報告一下動物保法第四條的第二項裡面當動物用藥不足之時 其實已經寫很清楚了不足的時候呢 可以用人藥過去協助那就是不足啊 現況就是不足啊就是可以用人藥啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9250.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9278.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
法院已經有了法院已經有了可以用人要啊就是取得就受到鑰匙法50條的限制啊所以50條也要連代修啊那你剛剛講的函式其實你們已經認同嘛只是法規沒有相對應的背印上來那如果衛福部這邊不想動你們寶貴的鑰匙法可不可以來動一下動保法那可是動保法要寫一句話叫做不受依釋法50條的限制你要這樣啊法院才清楚啊你不能夠用抵觸鑰匙法的函式在刑事好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9279.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9291.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
法源非常清楚了啦那如果法源清楚為什麼要第四條第二所以現在沒有問題嘛所以現在沒有要修動保法嘛現在要修訂的還沒有實施的這個辦法好 那我現在請問一個問題啦第四條第二項如果可以解讀成說它有跟藥商買藥的權限如果可以解讀的話這個前提你們認同嘛那為什麼你們7月1號制定的卻是兩套標準而其中有一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9307.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9317.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
去抵觸母法的規定那你們承不承認你們執法有問題嗎他只是管理上把他去沒有啊就不能買啦只有被化為東寶藥物才能夠去強調商買你們聽你們的解釋701項現在全都可以買 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9323.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9338.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
然後你們的執法呢 把701項區分為兩種 只有114項才可以購買那我現在就不懂啊 你的執法 你們怎麼頭腦不清楚去制定了一個抵觸線型就可以701項完全購買的藥物沒有抵觸 完全沒有抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9345.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9361.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好那現在另外一個問題我不想跟你陳口舌之爭反正這是直播的大家有眼睛有耳朵看得一清二楚聽得非常的清晰我不想爭執那我想問一件事可不可以正面就是給動物用的用藥可不可以負面表列 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9362.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9389.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
因為目前是701項算是正面表列嘛那可不可以負面表列我想法規上您最清楚在第四條第二項的寫法我那麼清楚還被你光了20分鐘的時間不斷的打臉這是你口中清楚的我嗎你非常的清楚在第四條這邊寫得很清楚在動保法第四條第二項它是公告人用藥品類別這是正向表列的寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9390.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9415.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
你也可以解讀成是負向表列啊你也可以解讀你也可以解讀負向表列啊法律的解釋本來就是有擴張解釋、限縮解釋、目的性解釋、核限式解釋啊你也可以解釋成負面那你現在不想負面就告訴我說法條看起來是正面哪裡有正面這兩個字啊啊你不是說我頭腦很清楚法學很清楚那我的法律見解就在這邊啊好那我收回我剛剛的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9416.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9430.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我覺得你要收回的可能不是只有這一句可能是從明槍起跑一直到現在你每一句話都要都要收回 部長我問你一個問題到底現在市主跟受益的心聲你有沒有掌握 掌握到哪裡 請你分享給我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9431.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9454.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們支持目前這個主管機關所公告的701項的所有人用藥品持續的使用在動物身上這就是我們的立場持續的使用在動物身上那取藥權呢沒有問題也可以跟藥商取取得法源依據呢第4條第2項法源依據的那如果有第4條第2項那這就夠啦為什麼還要再用執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9458.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9469.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
執法是在第三項啊對啊所以是有主管機關依照第四條第三項再去訂使用管理規定那所以現在就有法源了啊取得跟使用管理是兩回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9471.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9494.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 那我問你一件事7月1號你們把它分流為兩種一種叫人用藥物要去市主要去藥局購買一個叫凍飽藥物可以讓這個那個叫獸醫師直接取得你們分成AB兩套嘛那你的AB兩套不是抵觸你所謂的701項大開方便之門的現行法4條之二嗎那叫做使用管理規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9496.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9525.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
執法抵觸母法請問一下部長知道什麼效果嗎沒有抵觸啦哪裡沒有抵觸你本來701目前就沒有實施怎麼會抵觸那你的意思是有抵觸只是沒實施啊你講話要精確啊當時候訂的時候也是主管機關邀請了很多的單位大家一起討論過所以你現在是對啊那你現在為什麼那個懸崖勒馬嘎然而止讓他胎死苦中剛剛提到這個是造成在使用上取得一些不便利性所以重新檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9528.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9558.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
主席已經站起來了並不是抵觸母法而不實施是在實施上的方便性要檢討那我現在最後一句話因為主席已經站起來主席其實給我們很充裕的攻防時間那主席謝謝你也讓我跟部長的對話能夠呈現在世人的眼前然後大眾我想就交給大眾公平那我最後只講一句話為什麼會引起這樣軒然大波就是從2012年一直到現今已經快14年了關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9559.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9570.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
市主跟獸醫他們要取得藥物困難重重有些甚至是去偷買市區偷買好那我現在直接講一句啦如果可以取得藥物那請問一下為什麼藥商害怕賣給這些獸醫師呢請問為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9575.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9590.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
如果今天是合法可以取得為什麼由我講2012年的前提就是害怕賣給獸醫師呢這個問題好好去思考一下就好了那沒有問題反正我今天兩個訴求第一個訴求就是希望能夠正面表列負面表列但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9590.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9606.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
署長顯然不認同收回他的話那第二個問題呢就是我們希望能夠修法有一個長治久安的一個基礎不再困擾事主跟獸醫師而且讓我們毛小孩的健康權生命權用藥權能夠得到最大的保障好那謝謝謝謝協會委員會的諮詢現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9638.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9658.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9681.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9682.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
夾眼睛 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9700.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9700.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10195.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10197.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
現在繼續開會現在請廖偉祥委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10235.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10245.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
謝謝盧縣議召委那我們先請我們衛福部時部長以及我們房檢署的杜署長有請時部長杜署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10250.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10266.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
大家今天都很關心這個題目所以感謝主席安排我想還是先從杜署長開始如果部長要補充的再補充所以今天有兩個跟動物有關的問題要向農業部請教先談寵物用藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10268.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10290.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
在你們在2015年的時候有修所謂的動保法第四條那授權農業部定管理辦法結果拖了九年到了2024年才發布那還給了兩年緩沖期兩年730天左右你們自己書面報告寫的701項公告藥品完成登錄的只有114項只有兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10294.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10302.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
請問一下署長這兩年的緩衝期有沒有設專人主案輔導藥商來登錄有或沒有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10303.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10329.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
有其實這兩年的時候我們總共開過了相關的會議有15場15場那為什麼只有兩成不到只有兩成而已所以這個就是在原來的辦法裡面其實對於人用藥轉為動保用藥它第一個它綁住了它有這個登錄的問題那第二個它是有這個貼標的問題也就是說它會增加很多的成本跟人事上跟他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10330.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10344.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以這些問題不是也一直存在這麼多年了那為什麼只有這樣子那你現在要怎麼改不是所以現在就是因為有這些他們所有的聲音以及他們裹足不前的這些的部分那我們大概都納入到我們在解決的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10347.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10375.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
其實我這樣算一算剛剛這樣講起來已經是十年的事情其實已經非常的久了那到現在還在用這個理由推脫這根本就是行政怠惰或者是你行政無能因為我要憑良心講你們這次的事件導致的問題非常的多我們是站在四組的角度大家非常憂心你們7月1號上路可是這事情明明已經十年的時間了結果你到現在登錄才兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10376.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10404.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這根本就是你們行政太多然後你造成什麼問題你知道嗎本席也接受到民間的陳情本來六月中的時候他們還想這個有民間有這個協會啊還找了不管是獸醫師團體也好或者是找這個藥師團體也好各個團體大家本來要和諧一起舉辦相關的寵物家年華結果你今天這樣一搞這個活動幾乎他們就不想要互相幫忙也不想要在那個活動裡面互相協辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10405.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10417.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以這根本我想要表達的事情是這件事情你們的行政怠惰你的行政無能已經導致產生這樣子的問題而且讓四組很擔憂之外也讓這些團體好像變成是互為敵人 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10420.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10439.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
署長我跟委員報告法案的形成一定有它的背景那到了113年2月26號公告之前那也三次的預告的會議那基本上相關的利害關係人溝通無誤所以才開始溝通到公告所以才會有113年2月26號的公告辦法那署長請問為什麼變成這樣那公告以後有兩年的緩衝時間也就今年的7月要實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10448.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10459.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
剛剛我也聽到劉建國委員說啊這個你剛剛有講說時空背景不同嘛十年多來的那你所謂的時空背景不同具體到底是什麼為什麼什麼到底什麼原因你可以搞成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10461.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10481.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以我跟委員在做報告其實在這個辦法裡面當時是有一些的規範也就是說當我動物醫院要使用藥的時候我不單純只是來自於動保用藥我用人用藥轉到動保用藥他一定要登錄這個細節我們相關細節都知道那我就具體請問一下那我就具體請問一下現在我想醫用氧氣是動物手術跟急救的基本需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10489.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10507.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
是那請問署長你們農業部有沒有發函給所謂氧氣供應商告訴他們這個過渡期可以繼續供貨給動物醫院有或沒有我跟108年衛福部新聞告訴所有的藥商跟藥局就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10508.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10531.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
在這個暫行期間這個的供應其實是無語的那現在可以嗎是無語的現在可以嗎那現在現在還是一樣因為辦法沒有實施而且甚至已經註銷所以現在還是適用完全適用因為我跟你說部長還有部長我跟你們說其實部分的供應商其實已經擔心違法那也開始拒絕供貨那我想請問一下假設凌晨兩點的時候這些這個家長毛小孩的家長們假設貓咪心臟病發 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10538.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10552.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
受醫師說他需要氧氣但是供應商不敢賣那現在就是發生了這樣的問題那你要不要你要不要去具體的在這裡說現在可以然後甚至你去發函告訴這些供應商請他不用擔心違法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10554.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10566.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
其實在4月10號的時候就已經有做這樣的一個決定那會不會同意再次行文發函給所有的供應商也就是我們的經銷商或藥商好你們會發嗎那什麼時候要發那現在什麼時候要發 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10572.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10598.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
跟委員說明其實剛剛署長也有提到在108年這個食藥署就已經發過一個函在這個辦法實施之前藥商都可以供應所以只要你們在這裡明確講這件事我們在替這些事主這些毛小孩的爸媽要讓他們安心然後呢因為這段時間你也要讓這些供應商安心因為你雖然說你暫緩了 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10600.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10630.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
但是現在還是有相關的法規限制還是有存在的那藥商賣藥給獸醫院在法律上他會覺得有風險對不對所以你現在暫緩憑良心講不等於解決啊說實在獸醫師他每天在法律風險中救命所以你應該要趕快我的訴求啊我的訴求很簡單第一個你兩週內或者是最好是這一週你就可以去發函好就發函然後呢韓氏說他們現在不會有這個遇到所謂違法的問題他可以這樣使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10631.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10645.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那再來一個月內要解決這個醫用氧氣你要確保這些這個不管是各個醫院他都可以用到足夠的這些氧氣讓這些毛小孩在急診的時候可以安全無虞 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10649.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10664.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好 委員我跟您報告 氧氣在被存在獸醫院這事情是目前制度還是繼續進行所以不會 因為如果說7月1號如期實施這個辦法 當然大家就會有恐懼但也有解套的方法 但如果現在是沒有問題原來不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10667.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10681.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我是說假設7月1號也有一個解決方法就是用寄存的方式寄存的方式但現在沒有那個辦法實施所以現在維持現在的制度上是沒有所以你就承諾我我剛剛訴求蠻簡單的第一你要含釋封含好不好含釋告訴大家這個沒有問題大家不用擔心有這個違法法律風險好這是第一件事第二件事情就是你要承諾這些事情都是可以做到的不會因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10695.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10700.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
讓他們沒有所謂的氧氣可以容應因為現階段我們就是有收到對但是我們就是有收到相關的擔憂跟陳情我才會在這裡跟你提出質疑我現在就是要你把這件事情講出來這樣你懂嗎確定喔可以承諾嗎跟委員承諾啦就是說下一個應該是有農業部他會發一個函來註銷這一個管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10716.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10729.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那麼在註銷這個管理辦法的同時我們食藥署也會再發一個函在這個辦法沒有新的辦法實施之前那麼藥商能量可以供應這個相關的701項的藥品包含這個醫用氣體所以你們現在的這個辦法究竟是暫緩還是廢除 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10739.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10763.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
註銷 註銷了 註銷了要用一個新的辦法對不對好這個事情也要講清楚好那再來我要再問第二個問題喔也是請杜署長美濃的狗園啊349隻超量收容他上限是120那他的BCS是1到3喔那至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10764.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10785.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
無死那凍飽處裁罰四萬五沒有移送那據瞭解承諾發新聞但是也沒有發好這個不行這個部分請問一下我們署長有沒有掌握對不起委員雖然是在農業部但我是凍植物防疫檢疫署那這個的業務是屬於凍飽司那據我瞭解凍飽司應該在做處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10787.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10815.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
有在處理那我要告訴你因為你們今天農業部來你算是最高的長官那我一定轉達好我跟你說沒有我要繼續講我現在就是要講給大家聽所以比較一下這個案子2022年的時候它的這個2022年桃園觀音案也有數十具的這個遺骸那罰了20多萬而且移送法辦那高雄這一次呢罰四萬五沒有移送那為什麼統一不動保法有兩種標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10818.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10826.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
對不對 那署長農業部作為中央主管機關你們應該要去主動介入或者是有沒有監督機制 有或沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10828.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10849.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
絕對是有監督機制的動保法裡面其實規範的還相當好有監督機制可是看起來就完全就是有問題因為你們沒入84之後那還有一個叫原主要自行減量約80隻那這80隻去了哪裡有跨縣市移動嗎你們農業部有沒有辦法追蹤到 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10851.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10878.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我跟委員報告一下如果說在於回到收容所的業務的時候其實是中央跟地方分工的不過我覺得這件事情我還是要請中央地方分工沒有錯可是他跨縣市移動了這就像是這就是中央部會本來就應該我剛說你有沒有監管有沒有管理的機制好那他移動了你有沒有辦法知道他移動去了哪裡那你們有沒有統籌機制是請問有或沒有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10879.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10897.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
有來嗎沒有來是好那個委員我這樣講啦針對的這個的部分那我們是不是會後可以提供處理的請會後提供給本市報告好那因為我想要再問那全全國的188間的民間狗場合法的有幾間所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10901.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10925.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們不是主管機關 所以還是我好 那我在這裡告訴大家 林那公立收容8000隻 遊蕩犬有16萬那高雄流向民間最多那84隻僅3隻進了公立那其餘的有TSPCA承擔那募款要443萬動保法也有沒有向市主追討安置費的法源請農業部如果有任何人知道都可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10931.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10958.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
就好沒有只能請棟寶師整體性針對好那你這個請你也記錄下來因為我查的就是沒有好430萬民間承擔300多隻狗不當飼養啊只罰了4萬5一隻狗的命喔只值了150塊喔150塊所以我覺得這個已經是完全有兩兩套標準所以我最後的訴求喔就是四個書面喔第一個兩週內要 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10961.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10983.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這個發函函式剛剛所謂的要確保這些供應商還有這些獸醫師他們都可以不會覺得在遊走在法律邊緣然後要盡速解決我剛剛說的去了解究竟這些供應商他們有沒有因為這樣子不供應氧氣然後要去了解每一個獸醫院他在急診的部分這個使用有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10984.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10998.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
然後呢兩週內或者是你們會後直接可以的話就提供給我你們我剛剛說的這個高雄的案子他的這八十支犬的去處還有一個月內大量的飼養納管方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10999.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11026.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我要說政府花了這個整件事情花了11年準備這個寵物用藥的制度結果到現在看起來是一塌糊塗結果讓茅海有醫生可能卻沒有藥用 擔心啊那地方政府又面對這樣子重大的虐待案罰四萬五連安置費都要民間募款制度我想是人做的那制度失靈也是人造成的然後你們造成的時候導致了這麼多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11027.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11036.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以我要的不是口號 是你們具體的時間表和時間好 謝謝主席好 謝謝廖偉祥委員的諮詢謝謝委員謝謝施崇亮部長現在請陳瑩委員諮詢謝謝主席 麻煩請石部長請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11057.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11069.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
莊委員好部長好我最近有看到一篇中央社的報導是有關於這個個縣市65歲以上超高齡人口的比例那我們從這張簡報的標題 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11073.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11091.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
台北市的佔比是24.18%是全國第一那乍看之下我們很容易就認為說因為台北市的比例是最高的所以衛福部應該投入的這個長照資源看起來好像也是應該是最高那我不知道這樣的論點部長認為是不是一個絕對正確的論點 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11096.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11115.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
因為我們的長照是服務跟著人走所以當然人口數多的地方他相對的分配他的資源就比較多但是我們在有一些計畫在實施上還會考慮到他的財政能力分級而有不同的補助的比例所以這個是兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11117.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11135.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那我想是這樣子 就是很多人看到就是說這些表象的數據是很容易就立刻會被誤導那如果說我們去考慮到縣市別這個人口的平均壽命可能答案就完全不一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11136.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11151.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那我這邊也稍微提一下就是說因為台北他24.18%那台東也人口數這個老人人口數的這個占比也大概21%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11153.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11174.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那因為也有可能我是說台北市的比例高於台東那有可能是就是說台北市的這個醫療資源比較豐沛所以長者在各項疾病跟長照上他可以得到的處理是比較優的所以他可能壽命因此就延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11175.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11195.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
台東一樣就是說他醫療資源相對就貧瘠了許多那再加上我們那邊工作機會很少所以很多年輕人都跑光光跑到外地去所以造成說我們的比例的換算上其實那個理由原因可能是不太一樣的那我們這張 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11198.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11213.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
簡報是原住民跟全體國民的平均壽命的比較資料是內政部發布的最新的112年的數據顯示原住民族的平均壽命是73.25男性是68.73女性77.75歲跟我們全國人民的平均壽命是 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11225.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11249.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這個80.23比較起來差了將近7年的壽命所以從這個國民平等的這個角度來看的話呢原住民可以享受到政府的長照資源等於少了7年不過還好就是衛福部呢在這個長照2.0的時候呢雖然就是已經有放寬原住民55歲就可以使用這些長照資源這是很不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11249.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11278.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那不過請不要忘記過去委員積極爭取各項在這個園民區會有特別的調整是謝謝部長我想做球給你你又把球做給我了好那就是說我們但是我們不要忘記就是說很多這個健康的問題還是65歲以後他才慢慢顯現出來所以我們還是應該要去關注這個整個縣市層級的資源分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11281.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11308.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我看到了原住民人口占了超过三分之一的台东县还有花莲 屏东这些原住民都比较多的县市在事实上使用长照获得给付的比例它还是偏低特别是在专业服务上面在113年给付的人数占所有长照服务项目当中是最低的全年不到1500人 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11309.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11324.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那我还特别看了这个失智跟失能的服务机构大部分都围绕在台东市的周边其他偏乡地区的部落要使用其实还是很不方便的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11325.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11348.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
最近也特別要感謝卓院長對台東鄉親的關心在本月的4日也視察了台東樂齡社福大樓的工程進度也特別謝謝石部長在3月27日的時候有聽取本席跟莊瑞雄委員還有饒縣長對於台東縣財務的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11352.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11381.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
不知道就是說長照3.0原住民的部分以及這個卓院長的指示在這個衛福部是不是可以稍微說明一下目前的這個相關規劃跟進度好很謝謝委員提醒的就是因為產化法修法之後讓這個台東的這個財力分級呢大幅的躍升從本來是第五級跑到了第四級第一級去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11381.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11407.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以落差實在是太大但是我們也了解像委員提到的其實還有很多資源是相對上是缺乏所以我們還是會以中央的資源那麼雖然中央的資源也變少了但是我們願意更多的投入在這個偏鄉特別是台東這樣的一個資源不足的地區所以在各項的補助條件上我們都會按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11409.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11436.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這個舊的比例來給予支持那當然另外也得考慮到地方的特殊性所以在這個部落的部分那麼應該要有有別於一般的這個長照的布點我們也在討論當中比如說在談的這個住宿式的機構我們傳統都是這種機構式的住宿式機構那麼是不是現在有所謂的共生宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11437.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11465.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那更貼近於部落的需求這個目前我們也在規劃中也會先從這個部落這邊去優先的推動那另外相關的獨居老人的計畫我們也會先針對那麼資源比較不足的地方優先去推動那在這邊也是稍微提醒一下在部落大樓不多所以我不曉得你們的公生宅是都會去可能在大樓裡面那其他其他的可能你們就也要再思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11466.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11484.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們回到這個長照服務機構這個ABC的分部來談本席有發現就是很多A級跟B級的單位他是同時要支持好幾個鄉鎮的這個照護就像這個聖母醫院聖母居家護理所他要 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11486.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11505.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
它服务范围要涵盖泰玛里乡大武乡达仁乡的居家护理的服务但是它的地址是在台东市事实上就是说其实它距离也是很长范围也很广或许在实施的难度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11506.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11533.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
它會有一些挑戰所以透過遠距的視訊服務還有巡迴式定點的服務就相對很重要了雖然目前我們台東對於主要提供原住民長照服務的這些文件站在數量上有很多的提升當然它的優點就是說它既靈活又便利 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11535.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11557.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
但是就是說在文件站可以服務的專業項目僅僅是比較基礎的這些血壓量測還有健康促進等等而且主要它是由這個園民會負責可是長照3.0它真正的專業服務其實還是由衛福部這邊在負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11558.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11578.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那我今天在這裡想要特別提出以下的建議給衛福部就是第一個是希望你們能夠規劃提供這個巡迴服務的資源以台東為事辦的縣市因為你台東做好了你台東長照能做好你其他縣市一定做得好 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11579.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11599.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
因為利用這個長照台東縣的這個照管中心跟各個A級機構的這個能量來補助設備跟預算巡迴前往各個部落的文件站來提供這個輔具跟居家無障礙環境改善補助申請的這個評估評估與服務以及這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11601.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11628.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
物理與這個職能治療師的居家賦能還有營養諮詢護理指導等等還有針對這個五至八級失能者到載沐浴車糖尿病的逐步照護等等這些長照專業的特殊服務因為我前面講到的這個各個A級的機構當然我們從這個申請 核定這些繁瑣的程序其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11628.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11654.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我們來看一下這個A級的機構的分佈大部分應該都是A級機構在台東來講應該都是醫院醫院在負責那我們看一下這個台東全長一百七十幾公里但是呢這四家A級的機構全部集中在台東市那如果以在這個根深路跟傳廣路為中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11656.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11685.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
三家聖母醫院基督教醫院還有這個台東部立醫院大概車程五分鐘那馬街在過去一點車程八分鐘左右八到十分鐘左右所以四個A級機構在全長一百七十幾公里的台東呢全部集中在台東市所以當然在這些在這些專業的服務上整個申請到執行核定執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11686.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11703.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
整個這個程序就是服務很集中地理很分散加起來等於就是延遲作業然後甚至在這過程當中還有很多長者是放棄的所以特別所以這個巡迴的服務就很重要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11704.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11722.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那再來我看了就是依據你們行政院核定的這個長照10年計劃3.0未來文件站它你們規劃是要把它升級強化這個長照資源互助網長照資源互助網這樣子的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11725.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11749.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
看起來就是說我是建議說讓文件站可以跟這個長照管理中心來連線然後遠端提供健康醫療長照護等等的諮詢服務以及這個協調交通服務居家服務喘息服務等等這些文件站過去都沒有辦法提供的服務那 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11750.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11757.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
另外就是說順道因為這個服務的項目增加了可是文件站的照服員 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11759.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11784.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
他的薪水也大概就是三萬多那這個部分因為他們的工作量項目會增加所以是不是在薪水的部分也一併希望能夠來做調整這個部分不曉得部長看法怎麼樣因為至少起碼可以跟長照機構服務員的薪水四萬五到七萬這個差距不要那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11786.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11809.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
謝謝委員提出這樣的建議就是以這個巡迴服務跟遠距服務來補在地資源的不足這個方向上我們覺得非常支持所以我們再到委員辦公室詳細的討論那麼以台東我們來試辦把這些文件站充分的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11810.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11833.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
請你們提早來規劃因為平常文件站的照服員其實他們就是說因為大家都知道到市區去這個醫院的距離很遙遠所以有時候他們還要在工作之餘要額外帶長者去市區去看病有時候還要去幫他們取藥很多然後甚至颱風天他們都還要主動一個一個去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11834.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11862.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那現在這個問題在於就是說我想請問就是說這文件在照服員在一般這樣認知上是可以領加班費的嗎如果額外加班費如果他是勞基法的適用人員當然就是可以好那我想請問一下在總預算在他們的整個預算編列上有加班費這個項目嗎這個我要了解一下對所以要請你們了解一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11864.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11876.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那希望部長可以就是說可以體會本席今天質詢的用意啦那我們不要表面上被這個數據所誤導那很多原住民的長者他沒有獲得這個到 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11878.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11896.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
就是沒有獲得政府服務跟補助的資訊喔那甚至有需求呢其實也是不知道要怎麼申請那地方政府的人力跟物力其實都很有限所以更需要中央政府好特別很細心好主動的去這個去體諒所以希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11899.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11925.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這個部長可以跟衛福部的這些官員們可以聽進去然後而且真的把資源投入進去那我們的思考就從台東開始因為它的它就是最長然後最善然後長照最困難做好的地方所以我才會說你如果台東做得好那我們整個台灣長照一定做得好好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員我們來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11927.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11931.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
謝謝陳穎委員的諮詢現在請庭權局委員諮詢好 謝謝主席喔 那請我們石部長還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的徐秘書請石部長 請徐秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11957.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11962.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
主委好好謝謝部長那我這個先請教一下我們徐秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11964.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11993.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
請問一下我們台美互惠貿易協定就是ART是那時候針對我們在今年針對美國農產品還有就是我們豬肾牛肉還有汽車醫藥市場針對這些開放的承諾是今年開放嘛對不對這一年簽訂的對不對對這個是二月簽訂的內容那包括了您剛有提到了有些部分是屬於這個關稅的部分有些是屬於非關稅措施的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11994.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12014.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
是2月12號簽訂嘛那針對像我們美國農產品我們豬肾牛肉這些開放我們放寬萊克多巴胺放寬這個標準那在這部分我們在簽訂之前我請問一下那像我們衛福部農業部知道我們有放寬這個標準嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12016.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12033.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
其實我們那個談判團隊都是一起一起工作的一起討論所以知情嘛即使去美國談判也是那個相關部會也都是有代表所以就是衛福部跟農業部在我們簽訂之前大家都討論過所以都是知情的那石部長也在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12035.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12061.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我沒有在現場不過這個前面在前置作業上呢相關的要簽訂的內容上我們都有經過一些評估好那所以在這簽訂之前石部長也是了解我們針對我們這個瘦肉精這個萊劑的部分我們簽訂是預計就是要再放寬嗎應該是說來follow這個國際的標準就是按照Codex的標準就是比之前再放寬嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12062.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12082.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
就按照Torquex標準但是比我們之前是放寬的嘛部分的部分做調整部分是放寬的就像我們豬腎就是我們講豬腰的部分好像從本來的0.04ppm放寬到0.09ppm我們應該是這樣講Cordex的標準還有日韓的標準都是0.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12084.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12101.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那我們目前是0.04那未來我們會進行一些這個專家的討論跟這個作業怎樣所以後來簽訂就是知道就是要比之前還放寬啦對 就是比照CODES的標準好 所以這部分部長是知情的那但是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12102.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12124.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
其實我們是針對我們美國貿易障礙評估報告就是NTE後來公布之後他在3月31號公布後來我們國人才知道這件事情所以其實簽訂的時候內容我們是並不知道的那等到美國公布這份評估報告之後後來我們才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12125.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12144.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
原來針對這一部分像我們美國剛剛我們講的豬腎牛肉這一部分我們針對瘦肉精的部分是要放寬的我們是後來等美國這個報告出來之後我們才知情應該是在ART裡面就已經有提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12145.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12172.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但是我們國人知道的時候是等到美國公布我們才知道的因為事先並沒有ART風布的時候就知道就是在簽約這個洽簽這個對等貿易談判的時候對對但是我是說那你們你們談判辦公室跟行政院知道但是國人是等到美國這個評估報告出來其實國人才真正知道這件事情應該不是評估報告是最近的事情是之前那個ART |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12173.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12189.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
在2月的時候好那部長我請問一下那我們針對這部分開放那我們在做這個開放之前我們有沒有做安全的評估報告甚至還有針對食品衛生安全還有營養的諮議會我們有開過嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12192.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12219.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
跟委員說明 那麼我們也比對了我們跟我們現在的相對的這個萊克多巴胺的MRL的這個訂定的標準跟日韓等國以及CODES的落差那麼這裡面的最大落差主要是在腎臟所以我們在腎臟的使用的這個安全風險的部分去年有委託這個專家在進行這個健康風險的評估跟建議容許量 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12220.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12246.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以我們今年有這個評估報告嗎去年有去年所以我們提得出這個評估報告有有有我們有評估報告但是食品衛生安全及營養的執意會沒有開專家會議的部分因為這後續要進行的程序我們現在還沒有正式修訂嘛所以未來要修訂的時候自然就要經過這個程序我希望這部分要趕快做因為其實像蔡政府時期啊她在2020年 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12247.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12270.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
他8月中旬有公布說要在2021年元旦也是要正式開放讓我們這個標準放寬可是那時候我們有針對說沒有做安全評估報告這些有提出疑議所以當時他雖然前面沒有做可是後來他馬上在8月底的時候就馬上提出報告所以我們2月 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12272.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12285.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
簽訂然後到三月底其實公布之後國人才正式知道這個事情可是目前我們看到四月中我們這也沒有看到這安全評估報告還有專家學者這會議也沒有開 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12290.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12304.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
跟委員說明我們這一次其實已經提早在去年就完成這個健康風險評估的報告所以這個報告再送請給委員參考那後面的修訂的程序我們會按照法定的作業程序來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12306.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12327.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
那我希望部長還有我們署長在這邊我們盡快把這個報告給我們胃膀委員會大家知道你之前做的這個評估報告還有專家學者這個食品衛生安全跟營養的諮議會也要趕快開讓民眾真正能夠了解放寬這個來劑之後對我們有沒有什麼其他的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12328.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12355.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
因為我們要知道我們國人其實大家都知道其實像我們在萊劑他在肌肉殘留的部分沒有那麼高但是他在肝腎內臟的部分殘留是比較高的然後其實以飲食習慣來講歐美來講歐美的民眾一般他們是不吃內臟的但是我們國人的飲食習慣尤其我們婦女孕婦坐月子還有我們常常 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12356.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12380.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我們國人會習慣吃一些什麼黑白切之類像我們豬肉啊還有肝啊腎啊還有什麼大腸什麼等等其實我們國人因為我們的我們自己養殖的豬我們是沒有打這個瘦肉精沒有打萊克多巴胺所以我們對於內臟的使用的部分我們包含孕婦啊坐月子等等我們都有習慣性是去吃這個內臟 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12383.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12390.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那所以針對開放這部分將來這內臟你看從0.04ppm要開放到0.09ppm相對的這對於我們將來飲食習慣會常吃內臟對於我們對這安全評估報告我們希望也能夠了解因為這國人飲食習慣跟歐美是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12405.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12425.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
跟我們說明我們在做這個安全風險評估健康風險評估的時候也考量了國人的這個飲食習慣去做的調教近年的 去年的就有這樣的參考把肝腎都特別的著重那也考量到坐月子的時候的這個婦女的食用量去做的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12426.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12448.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
第二個呢那我們當然除了我們自己的標準我們也會對照其他國家像日韓跟我們飲食習慣比較相近的那他們的標準也是按照CODES所以我們希望這安全評估報告一定要加入國人針對這內臟的飲食習慣這部分一定要加入因為這確實我們跟我們飲食習慣是不一樣的好的 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12449.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12467.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那還有針對美國貿易障礙報告我們看到它針對我們跟台灣比較有關係的重點剛剛我也有聽到其他委員有在質疑現在我們這標準放寬之後我們以後針對這茶廠還有邊境這茶宴的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12468.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12486.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
是不是應該更嚴格因為我們現在把標準放寬我們也擔心標準放寬你說0.01 0.04 0.09ppm但是你沒有去查驗我們擔心他甚至是超過甚至是更高的照來講現在放寬應該要查驗的更嚴格才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12487.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12515.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
跟委員說明我們從源頭就管理就源頭就包含要系統性查核那麼同時呢也有查廠的機制所以源頭的部分會把關那邊境的話我們也會有這個抽驗那如果有抽到我們還會提升這個抽驗的批次那另外在後市場的部分也嚴格的會做好這個標示產地的標示所以不論是散裝包裝或者是飲食場所都要明確的標示所使用的原產地 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12516.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12545.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以這個我們都會把關所以其實今天為什麼會提出來其實我們看到美國公布的這障礙報告針對涉台的重點我們看他針對美豬的部分看他寫台無正當理由下不對處理美豬台業者反覆稽查降低採購意願所以他在講他怕降低採購意願所以變成你沒有正當理由你不能反覆去抽查也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12546.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12571.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
你不能沒有理由你就去查驗可是我們的標準就是我就是要不斷的抽驗啊我不能等到發生問題之後偶爾有狀況發生我們才去查驗所以針對這個涉台重點好像跟部長講的好像不太一樣變成說你要去查驗要有理由那我們的標準是我就是要不斷的查驗尤其開放之後我標準要更高我查驗要更嚴格才對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12571.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12594.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
跟委員說明我們在邊境的查驗都是採風險極速的風就是你長期都沒有查到有問題的他就降低查驗的批次那但是如果你被驗到有問題的就會提升抽驗的批次所以在有限的人力之下我們採風險查驗抽驗的方式在進行邊境的把關所以這個標準不會改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12596.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12611.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好我希望部長因為我們看到他公布的其實我們是有餘力我剛講的是美豬你看他對美牛台R承諾解除特定美牛產口美牛產品進口禁令取消繁瑣 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12612.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12629.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
輸入口岸檢疫程序你看喔他針對美牛這個進口禁令他說叫我們要取消繁瑣輸入口岸檢這個檢疫的程序變成說他在要求我們不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12630.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12650.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
查驗這麼嚴格應該是這個有關美牛的部分是有另外一個議題他不是這個殘留量主要是這個BSE也就是我們常講的這個狂牛症那麼過去的BSE這個美國被這個在2013年的時候是被歸類在 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12652.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12673.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
風險可控制的國家啦所以我們有一些是禁止他進來可是他後來已經被改列為這個風險可忽略就是最安全等級按照這個WOLF的就是世界動物這個健康組織的規範呢他是全牛都可以進來所以他已經被改列了我們沒有這個與時的調整再加上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12676.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12688.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
2023年的時候也重新定義了這個BSE分為只有典型的BSE才是風險物所以我們要根據它去做調整它指的是說我們沒有與時俱進的這個風險調整部長沒關係 其實喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12691.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12712.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
我就講說針對其實我們看到他這個報告涉台重點對於我們來講要嚴格查驗可是針對他的報告其實看起來是要我們放寬而且還告訴我們說沒有正當理由你就不能去查然後也不能那麼繁瑣要取消繁瑣所以這跟我們講的查場跟邊境查驗我們說放寬標準應該要更嚴格可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12716.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12743.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
看起來他要求是我們要更寬鬆所以我希望部長還是要針對我們的食安防線現在我們這個標準你說因為對於美國關稅的問題去做這個談判的協議我們放寬可是我覺得國安這個食安的防線我們還是要堅守我們的最底線因為這個食品食安的問題還是希望我們衛福部能夠堅守食安跟健康的把關我們會堅守 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12745.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12767.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
對啊因為我們看這報告好像跟部長講的好像不太一樣但是我希望我們還是要嚴格查驗啦這個食安的問題沒有繁瑣的問題只有標準我們雖然標準放寬可是我們查驗一定要更加的嚴格還有我們針對牛脂牛血這半成品 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12768.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12791.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那他這個這部分他的來機的部分有查驗嗎他有數據嗎這個主要是做飼料這個不是進入所以他沒有針對他的來機的殘留的標準沒有數據沒有查驗沒有他是進入到飼料進入飼料但是他進來是半成品嘛半成品然後後來進來乾燥做飼料對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12794.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12810.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
應該是沒有進來過目前美方沒有對我說將來這個牛脂牛血進來是要做飼料是嗎對做飼料做飼料他是不是用乾燥的方式來說明一下跟委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12812.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12833.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
跟委員報告如果是牛油脂進來的話它是精煉過後的產品那就是作為飼料的部分的原料那血粉的話它就是已經噴霧乾燥之後的也是作為飼料添加的一部分對啊就是到化製廠做成肉骨粉或者血粉添加然後給豬吃嘛做成飼料給豬吃嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12834.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12852.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們在國內的話那個飼料管理法有規定就是它在這個反芻動物化是不能夠使用的所以不會有BSE傳播的風險我們現在擔心的就是我們國內養豬是不能添加瘦肉精不能添加萊劑對不對我們這個國內養豬是嚴格的標準因為其實我們國內剛剛有講國內國人的飲食習慣因為內臟這些我們都會吃所以這個就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12864.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12891.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
台灣豬為什麼溫體豬大家國人可以安心食用因為我們的養殖辦法我們養殖的方式我們不去添加這些瘦肉精等等所以我們內臟都可以食用可是我們現在擔心的是你牛脂牛血將來做飼料它乾燥我們乾燥之後把這些水分去掉之後其實它乾燥之後它的萊劑的比例是會增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12892.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12916.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那如果給豬吃我們有沒有這個數據豬吃這個飼料之後會不會殘留在我們台灣豬的體內跟委員報告依據我們這個飼料管理法的規定如果是這個反芻動物跟豬的話都是不能用這些肉骨粉、血粉作為飼料的原料的所以剛剛委員考量的這些品項是不會進到豬的飼料鏈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12918.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12945.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這些也不能給豬吃嘛好我希望這部分一定要注意因為你做成飼料之後我們一定要嚴格把關我怕做成飼料之後那會不會礙於成本等等的問題他拿出給豬吃那豬吃了含有這個萊劑的這些飼料會被殘留在豬的體內變成本來豬沒有打瘦肉精結果他因為吃了飼料以後反而殘留在體內 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12947.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12959.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
所以這部分我如果說豬不能吃我希望我們衛福部還有我們主管單位這部分一定要嚴格來把關因為我們現在也擔心你看我們現在台灣豬農其實真的很擔心我們現在因為關稅的問題我們開放開放他進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12965.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12987.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那其實為什麼要打這個瘦肉精打瘦肉精其實每頭豬的成本可以減5%到10%可以省下來這個成本那我們美國他打這個瘦肉精的豬本來成本就比我們便宜再加上我們要取消99%的關稅的減免那以後台灣豬農要何去何從 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12988.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12991.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
你們有沒有顧慮到我們臺灣豬農本來他又要顧環保又要顧飼料成本他成本會提個更高結果美國豬他打瘦肉精養的本來他的成本就很低又減低他的關稅以後這對臺灣豬農的衝擊我們有沒有考量過跟委員報告就是說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13009.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13032.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這個豬肉的部分 國人還是習慣食用這個國產豬啦所以進口的這個豬肉的呢 只佔我們全部的大概8%而已那其中又來自於美國豬的比例又更低所以美國的豬肉只佔整個進口豬的大概一點多個%所以其實是很低啦 是很低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13033.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13055.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
所以對於這個過去這幾年我們都密切的在關注那國人的這個飲食還是習慣是國產豬這進口豬的影響不大好所以我們還是要堅守我們這個豬肉的產地這個標示不管你是省莊等等一定要嚴格這個豬肉產地的標示過去我們不斷的在稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13055.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13077.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這個不論是散裝包裝或飲食場所都要明確標示原產地好所以剛剛部長你也講到一個重點因為我們吃台灣豬台灣豬溫體豬因為他沒有打萊劑所以我們安心使用所以我剛剛就講我們真的是擔心說到時候他又吃到了這飼料還有萊劑把我們整個台灣豬這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13078.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13103.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個政治標記又把它毀掉到時候萬一我們台灣豬結果又驗出裡面又有萊劑結果它成本又高那美國豬進來成本又低到時候對他們來講是雪上加霜所以這個部分不單是食安的問題還有我們台灣豬農這個權益我們要如何照顧我們的豬農也希望我們這一部分一定要嚴格把關所以針對剛剛講我們之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13106.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13111.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我們針對來自這個風險評估報告那部長說有做針對國人我們飲食習慣這報告盡快提供給我們還有這專家學者的針對他們食品安全衛生營養的諮議會趕快開還有我們針對我們剩下剛剛我們講的針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13129.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13154.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
萊豬的部分還有牛的部分一定都要跟我們嚴格把關產地的部分一定要標示清楚還有絕對不能讓我們台灣豬去吃到含有萊劑用牛脂牛血的這樣乾燥的飼料讓我們萊豬去吃到一定要嚴格把關好 完全同意這個委員的看法我們會來執行好 謝謝謝謝童星君委員的質詢現在請林淑芬委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13164.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13168.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們石部長有請石部長林委員好部長辛苦了 中午了今年以來 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13180.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13206.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
台大醫院研究大樓在1月29號台大醫院東址大樓在2月24號三軍總醫院松山分院在4月3號這兩家醫院有三起火災事件發生火災然後松山分院還是清明節連假的第一天然後台北市消防局獲報後立即提升為B級的這個火警 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13208.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13234.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
出動了53名的警消前往救援16分鐘以後撲滅火勢然後大家發現醫護啦民眾受影響大家都就地避難那我現在要談這個是因為啊2026今年到現在才多久的時間就有這個都教學型醫院大型的醫院然後火警見報 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13235.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13250.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那台大還兩次那我們在講說這樣的火警都不是偶發的還不是偶發的單一事件你看從台大醫院說他們是建築施工然後設備安全火災預警 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13251.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13269.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
然後這個應變管理大家都開始睜大眼睛在檢視這些事情很難以想像就是說怎麼會像台大醫院東址是外部六樓的外部施工導致煙霧煙霧會跑到醫院裡面然後造成12樓13樓觸發警報外面的煙霧跑到大道裡面觸發警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13280.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13300.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個不是非同小可的事情啊在這種狀況裡面警鳴大作然後他也不是一次今年就兩次雖然沒有人員傷亡但是依照醫療事故預防及爭議處理法的第35條專案主管機關應該要組成專案小組做出這個調查報告請問你們有啟動調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13309.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13331.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
跟委員說明 因為那個應該還不能夠列入我們這個醫療事故正義處理預防跟正義處理法的這個定義啦那個他還沒有屬於叫做醫療事故第315條它是事故預防危害公共衛生及安全或有危害之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13332.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13360.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
但是他前面的那個法規在前第三條他在名詞定義上他有提到那你說中央還沒有構成要件那地方的火警調查火災調查原因是什麼這應該要因為他還是可能的一個公安事件所以按照醫療法本身他還是這個地方要去介入瞭解我們來追蹤這個事情很嚴重今年就兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13361.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13381.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那三種的是控制的病房 控制的病房沒有人大白忙 不明原因起火 這大事建築物的外部施工焊接引起火花 然後觸發警報控制的病房不明原因起火 這是正常的嗎 這絕對都不正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13384.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13405.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那地方政府的調查你們對他的狀況怎麼樣我想聽起來好像你還是沒有去問沒有特別去沒有掌握嘛但是不是每次火警都要等到有人死亡我們才要去把它當成是重大事件去關注不是因為你必須見為知著啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13407.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13428.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以你從這裡就看到這個醫院醫院的管理有沒有問題一次兩次 台大耶然後現在講說因為醫院跟一般建築不同裡面是臥床的病人重症的病人行動不便者一旦失火他的風險不是一般的公共場所可以來相比你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13429.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13455.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
所以我現在跟你講說兩次然後都是教學型醫院然後控制的病房會起火這事情很嚴重的耶跟委員說明確實這個因為台灣很多醫院也相當老舊啦台大醫院也是他已經很久的我們聽不下去老舊老舊不要提出來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13456.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13470.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
再怎麼老舊也要確定這個醫療場所裡面的安全是更勝於其他公共場所的沒有錯就如同委員所提到的因為醫院裡面的住院病人相對的避難能力是比較差的 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13471.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13480.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
所以他所需要要求的防火相當的措施要更高所以我們去年開始就有一個輔導計畫你們的輔導計畫是什麼輔導計畫我們輔導當然是先從比較小型的醫院因為他們自己的能力比較不足所以我們先去輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13493.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13520.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那這個大型醫院的話你們輔導計畫的內容主要是什麼核心的那個點是什麼我們的輔導當然包含第一個就是它的防火設施還有它的這個那個建築安全它的設計那以及應變能力那些大概這一些因為去年年底剛好監察院也通過糾正屏東縣政府衛生局東港證供所還有衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13522.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13546.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
他們在年底去年12月26號糾正了你們地方政府主要的疏失以安泰醫院為例他合法的面積大概一半一半47.2都是非法的違建而且在2005年就開始了在那種狀況裡面地方政府放任違建醫院在違建內從事醫療使用到連 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13550.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13567.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
到去年 監察院去年2025年10月去履刊的時候現場仍然是違建 持續在使用當中現在政府也沒有依法勒令停止使用也沒有依法採取斷水斷電的處置火災的風險不是偶發 而是結構性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13575.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13602.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這個問題消防署統計全國469家醫院在2005年到2024年之間一共發生過98件的火災起火的原因都以電氣因素最多佔56.1%起火的地點以機房居多佔13.3%而安泰醫院就是因為電氣因素加上機房起火 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13605.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13622.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
死了8個人我這個都是監察院的監察報告全國醫院評鑑的制度也出現了系統性的失靈我說的也是監察院的調查報告監察院指出全國有81家的醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13623.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13639.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
屬於你講的中小型醫院類似安泰醫院他們都涉及違法擴充樓地板面積應列管的違建醫院竟然其中有70家這些都違建要列管的然後都還在營業的81家裡面有70家通過了衛福部的醫院評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13656.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13681.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
通過了醫院評鑑你們衛福部都給他評鑑通過所以顯然可以知道你們衛福部的對醫院公共安全的評鑑存在著系統性的微失而讓所有看病的這些民眾置於風險當中所以你動搖了人家對你們監督機制這種評鑑機制的信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13685.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13689.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
81間有70間通過你們的醫院評鑑你怎麼做 何感想 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13691.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13704.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
跟委員說明當然在這個評鑑的過程當中基於這個委員的專業啦他不見得有辦法看得那麼細所以通常在評鑑的同時會會同衛生局跟相關我現在沒有在看你們的委員看不看得這麼細啦相關的這個現在監察院說你們八十一斤都是這個有問題但這樣七十斤你也是讓他評鑑合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13717.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13735.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
這不是你們有問題嗎 沒有然後你們被點出來的四大缺失喔他們簡直就透過安泰醫院這個評鑑上的問題他點出你們四個問題第一個問題你們衛福部辦理安泰醫院的評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13737.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13750.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這個早在2005、2007年就存在了結果你們的這種違建還在一半以上都是違建然後你們在2011年、2017年通通都繼續通過評鑑都通過第二個你們在2024年 這個在2011、2017都評鑑通過 合格喔合格喔在2024年他要辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13766.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13792.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
這個評鑑2024年8月要辦理評鑑評鑑委員在上面清楚的寫出他的意見他說公安消防有缺失2024年的8月評鑑委員說公安消防有缺失結果呢當年10月就發生火災了就8條人命了但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13793.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13818.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
你們安消防有缺失有同時通報縣政府去解決去改善嗎有橫向聯繫嗎答案是沒有在8月的時候就說有缺失沒有通知縣政府不要說當時沒有到現在可能也沒有啦是不是沒有沒有啦評鑑的時候都是會統衛生局你有通知縣政府說裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13826.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13833.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
委員認為上面有公安消防的缺失衛生局他們不會知道你們的委員當時審查的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13837.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13860.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
所以在這個裡面依據你們醫院評鑑基準第一點五章安全的環境和設備裡面有講所以你們應將員工工作環境病人就醫環境的安全納入考量在規劃醫院建築和相關硬體設施時就應該把這些納入考量而且要審視是不是符合法規的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13861.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13881.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
如果發現有違反相關的法令規定應立即改善然查上開基準欠缺呼應條文和查核的方式沒有將核心的公安事項列入評鑑指標當中你們沒有把公安的核心指標列入評鑑指標 制度顯有缺漏這不是我講的 這個是監察院講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13884.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13910.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
監察院又說你們的評鑑人員雖然有醫學公共衛生和管理的專業背景但是在醫療設施設備安全評鑑時考評存在建築硬體配電器消防安全等缺漏醫院的評鑑人員如不具備建築公安消防等專業也沒有看到評鑑時要求受評的醫院要提供上開的證明文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13911.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13935.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
通通都沒有辦法評鑑啦所以你們評鑑淪於紙上作業居多就公安公共安全上真的是沒有那個作用那只有台北市衛生局在要求轄區醫院在考評的時候台北市政府會要求他們要提供醫院的建築出圖證明供衛生局現場集合我的意思是說地方政府人家有人這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13936.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13955.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那我現在在講 監察院不是只有糾正地方政府 也糾正了衛福部要求衛福部、消防署、國土署要檢討強化醫院的建築安全管理等等還有他們現在到現在 去年12月糾正到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13956.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13976.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
然後也明確指出了你們應該要修正評鑑制度請問你們衛福部到底修正了沒有好跟委員說明喔第一個在這個評鑑的時候呢那麼多另外有消防安檢那個是由地方的主管機關要去做檢核的就是聯合的概念我現在講的是監察院要求你們監察院要求你們在評鑑的時候不是什麼都是由評鑑委員來評啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13982.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13992.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
現屬法規的合法消防安檢的部分本來就有地方的主管機關人家地方政府隨時就可以檢的啦我沒錯啦我現在問你的問題不是這個問題你答非所問你不要轉移焦點我問你的問題是你的評鑑委員在評鑑的時候就發現他有公安消防的疑慮你們沒有同時通報地方政府沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14007.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14029.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
第二個監察院說你們在做醫院的評鑑的時候也要把公安的這個消防的這一些確保安全的這些項目要納入評鑑的機制裡面所以評鑑的基準有沒有納入核心的公安事項評鑑的委員的組成有沒有補到建築消防配電的這些專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14035.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14053.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
受評的醫院 如果沒有那些委員的話 受評的醫院應備的文件有沒有增加建築 公安 消防等相關證明我問你是 監察院都給你們糾正了 到現在四個月過去了 這些通通改進了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14054.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14076.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
在這個剛剛委員關心的就是我們的評鑑的報告給地方政府這個我們會做啦就是把它我們過去就是有給衛生局啦就是這個評鑑的結果報告會給衛生局作為它未來督導考核的查核項目之一啦所以這個部分橫向的部分我們做了不是啦你們的委員都發現有問題了一定要通報地方政府馬上進場去檢查如果2024年的8月 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14084.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14105.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
你們這麼做的話或許那10月發生的火災就不會有這8條人命的去無辜的傷亡跟我們說明就是說那個時間的落差是不是可以縮短一點我們是前車之鑑慘痛的經驗過去是最後評定完之後再把這個評鑑的結果報告會給衛生局 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14108.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14110.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我現在不是在談個案而已我是從這個個案要跟你講制度而監察院都糾正了你們的制度全面性的改善了沒有就這麼簡單問你們全面性的制度改變了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14124.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14140.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
第一個就是我們把這個報告早一點送早一點送給地方不要等到那個評定完之後啦那第二個就是那個評鑑的標準裡面來優化把這些納進來這個我們會再做你們評定完要多久才會評定完 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14142.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14151.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
通常你們評鑑要評定多久才會評定完我們會分批啦 不過大概都是評定完那個叫實地評鑑 你實地評鑑完要多久大概都會幾個月後才會決定會議我問你最具體的 為什麼我要問這個問題是因為你們2024年的8月去評鑑東港的安泰醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14165.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14192.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
10月3號就發生大火 死了8個人然後呢 發現一半都是偽章建築那請問這樣子事情過了多久了從你8月評鑑 2024年評鑑到現在2026年的4月了已經過了幾個月了請問你安泰醫院的評鑑到底是合格還是不合格所以他當年沒有合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14193.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14208.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
就要重評我在你們的網頁上查詢不到啊就是還沒有2024年的8月你就去評鑑啊到現在你說他不合格還是合格來他就是要重評的啊他要重新評鑑啊什麼叫重新評鑑就是2024年那一年他沒有合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14220.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14231.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
你們對於人民資的權利真的是認為都不需要給我們嗎不合格然後不用讓我們知道嗎你說他不合格他的網頁說他合格耶那是之前吧他之前的話現在還掛在網頁上嗎他說他們合格耶來看你們的查詢系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14249.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14261.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
你們的醫院評鑑你去查詢都查不到不合格你只公佈合格那查不到不合格那人民是要知道他是還沒評鑑還是不合格嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14265.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14277.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個跟你們狼醫查詢系統都一樣在這裡虛晃一招你只公佈合格然後呢事實上還沒評鑑的也查不出來評鑑不合格的也查不出來你們的網頁連不合格的資訊都不公告這不用改進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14286.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14294.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我們過去當然只公告合格名單沒有公告 不合格不用公告給我們知道嗎他自己的意願說他合格你說他不合格如果沒有立委在這裡諮詢你人民怎麼會知道他合格還是不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14305.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14322.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
就是過去我們都是公告合格現在呢過去是這樣現在呢我們來演我們來演繹你評鑑這個要幹嘛不就讓人民知道哪些是合格哪些是不合格嗎你不合格不公告我人民怎麼知道這間是沒合格或是不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14325.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14339.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這是包庇嘛就是包庇嘛在你們的醫院評鑑專區網頁上東泰醫院東泰安泰醫院沒有任何敘述這種到底是你說不合格還是合格不要講了啦其實你們有改嘛你們其實你們公告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14349.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14362.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
在2024年10月安泰醫院大火以後以後你們修改了你們的醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序第11點 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14364.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14389.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
你們改了不知道是對醫院太好還是怎樣你們說放寬評鑑結果可以限期改善其實他為什麼他也不是合格也不是不合格安泰醫院現在不是合格也不是不合格經過了快要兩年了一年八個月了評鑑完到現在一年八個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14391.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14404.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
到現在他不是合格也不是不合格因為你為他量身定制了放寬放寬評鑑結果可以限期改善但這個限期是要限多久保定是要限多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14407.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14427.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
你們現在開放可以限期改善是要限期多久沒有啦你們可以把重大公安 病安事件納入評鑑但沒有明定一旦發生應停止或不予通過評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14429.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14455.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
一旦但你沒有明定一旦發生問題應該要停止或者是不予通過你就說可以給他限期改善你就允許他改善嘛所以你不會判定他合格還是不合格表面上你們是說新增了重大公安病安事件的處理規定實際上卻是把重大事件納入先改善再決定是否不合格的框架 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14455.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14478.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
你不是加嚴啦你有可能是在架空和弱化你的評鑑的即時把關的功能讓發生重大公安或病安事件的醫院仍然有機會可以透過限期改善維持評鑑結果把重大事件納入可補正程序卻沒有同步建立明確的評定暫停還有資訊揭露和對外標示的規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14484.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14508.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
導致問題的醫院得以停留在通過跟未通過之間的模糊地帶他是合格不合格還沒有判定的狀況所以現在安泰醫院一年八個月不是合格也不是不合格因為他發生了公安事件還在限期改善你們制度面我就問你你的限期改善沒有讓人民知道他現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14510.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14530.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
在限期改善階段你在合格不合格之間如果允許他限期改善那你也要讓人民知道這家醫院現在正在限期改善你也要在法規上明定限期改善最長的時間是多少沒有人這樣子一年八個月了還在限期改善的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14533.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14550.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
蛤你這個有三個層次的影響第一個層次對民眾知情權的不利評鑑本來就讓我們知道他的醫療品質跟安全標準到底合格或不合格你現行的制度只有公佈合格不公佈不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14551.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14578.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
然後發生 還修改你們的作業程序 評鑑作業程序你們允許他限期改善可是呢 你們對於發生事情裡面進入限期改善也沒有讓人民知道也沒有清楚公告目前法律跟評鑑狀態也沒有公告限期改善期間要多久民眾無法做出正確的判斷這間便宜有安全嗎 不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14579.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14587.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
第二個對主管機關責任不利因為只要不知道他是合格不合格或是現期改善狀況主管機關就持續用尚在處理當中尚未評定來延後表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14595.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14621.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
也不必立即公告不合格也不必立刻說明該醫院是否仍得對外宣稱自己具有某種評鑑資格都不知道都是醫院自己說我合格了你們政府都不用說明第三個對醫院形成有利的模糊空間然後醫院就利用這一種空窗期主張我沒有不合格喔因為我還在限期改善喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14622.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14638.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
甚至還可以說我過去的平健光環或是社會的印象它上面寫我合格所以對這種發生重大事件的醫院來講保留了很大的操作的空間所以現在怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14639.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14658.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
安泰醫院我現在問你安泰醫院他可以適用你們20他2024年評鑑不合格2025年你們修改了評鑑作業程序他現在可以適用你們2025年的評鑑程序然後給他限期改善嗎舉這個醫院來講是這樣子把我們說評鑑制度當 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14666.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14680.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
當裝飾嗎他用2024年的評鑑然後你2025年修改規定他又2024年評鑑沒算 要用2025年的作業程序來重評給他機會 每間便宜都這樣你們的評鑑這是裝飾用的嗎不對 這樣對不對這個限期改善的部分我們會再來督促主管機關來啦 你那 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14692.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14707.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
主管單位在哪裡 限期改善 限期是限多久一年八個月還要限嗎限期 你們沒想過你們的限期改善是多久嗎2024年8月評鑑 到現在還在限期改善連合格不合格都沒有辦法判定他對外說他合格啦啊到底你們現在是判定他合格還不合格還是在限期改善當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14720.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14726.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
醫院評鑑合格是與否合格不合格他醫院自己說我合格你們網頁找不到也沒有公佈他們沒有違反他們這樣做他們沒有違反相關規定嗎我今天不是要跟他針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14744.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14756.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
安泰醫院這個個案 而是要問你監察院已經指出全國有81家像安泰醫院一樣的列管的 違建的醫院81家70家通過評鑑而這些狀況都有可能會跟安泰一樣有公安的疑慮而你們說他們評鑑合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14771.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14777.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
你到底要不要正面的去面對你們評鑑制度失靈的責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14779.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14807.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
然後再來當你們2024年8月在評鑑安泰的時候評鑑委員已經在公文裡面寫下他的評鑑意見寫下公安消防缺失沒有同時通報地方政府地方政府不知道這樣的評鑑制度有預警功能嗎 沒有所以8月之後的10月發生大火死了8條人命 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14809.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14836.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
再來當醫院發生重大公安或病安事件以後你現在修改你的評鑑作業程序評鑑結果沒有判定合格也沒有判定不合格就停留在長期停留在現期改善當中民眾的風險要依據什麼沒有資訊不知道任何狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14838.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14844.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
然後民眾無從判斷風險所以我們用這個個案來看你的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14845.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14868.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
你立即公佈81家 你把資料給我們 81家列管的違建的醫院到底是哪81家 給我們知道然後你的醫院評鑑合格公告出來 不合格也一樣公告出來你的限期改善也要公告出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14869.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14898.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
然後你的制度面限期改善是限多久最多一個月兩個月三個月已經夠多了如果不行的話就是不合格不要這樣子安泰醫院已經限期一年八個月了一年八個月了所以在這種狀況裡面如果這樣拖下去你的評鑑制度形同虛設沒什麼而且治病人的安全在高風險之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14900.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14921.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這樣補店有辦法嗎?這個補店要改跟委員說明這個有關於這個國土署所給的這個名單我們都有列管然後再進行輔導改善 我在說監察院說的80億斤啦明年大給我們啦 可以嗎?可以可以可以 那個名單其實是國土署給我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14922.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14939.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那你再搭配你們70家評鑑合格的一併勾出來網頁公開的網頁要改進有沒有問題你們的限期改善不能限到一年八個月還在限期可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14940.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14958.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
限期改善最長一個月兩個月三個月已經夠長了你們想想看還要拖多久啊限期改善可以一直限下去嗎從合格六年評鑑一次你現在已經評鑑一年八個月以前的評鑑到現在還沒有公告不合格這樣六年已經有兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14962.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14962.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
現在請王振旭委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14991.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14997.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
今天有兩三個問題來請教一下部長跟署長第一個就是公開健康風險評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15012.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15035.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
第二個就是強化食安前端的預防還有後端的這個稽查的量能最後一個小題目就是診所受護醫師的加保權益來請教一下部長那其實這個題目大家都已經請教過部長好幾次了不過我們還是很相信對民眾有一個很透明的資訊是非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15036.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15064.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那以這次簽署這個台美對等貿易協定ART為例我們知道國人會非常非常的在意相關的一些議題尤其是在於美豬美牛這個進口管理上早上部長也有非常確認除了書面報告裡面也口頭再度強調要堅持四大不變這四大不變就是包括這個敏感品項禁令不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15065.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15083.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
還有原產地標示不變校園採購國產不變還有就是食安管理制度機制不變這四大不變之下國人還是會擔心的有關於國人健康的項目就是這次在ART裡面會開放絞肉跟部分的內臟進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15084.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15102.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
以及來自於標準的這個改裁Codex的國際新標準我們都是臨床醫師嘛對這個國人的健康真的非常非常的重視不過有沒有危害健康真的不是一個人說了算他一定要有好的科學證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15104.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15131.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
這個是一個很重要社會溝通的基礎我們看2019年其實那時候也有發生類似的狀況那就有公告一個非常透過成功大學李教授的一個風險健康評估這樣的一份內容讓民眾就非常的安心知道在這種推估之下對國人健康造成的影響早上也有蠻多委員針對這個議題請教的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15133.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15162.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那請問一下我們目前針對在新的標準之下新的這些狀況之下這個健康風險評估的報告有沒有機會很快透過確定以後就能夠公開給大家做確認那同時呢什麼時候會提交給這個食安執意會來做最後確認跟討論這部分可以有一個比較好的承諾方式嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15163.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15193.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
好 跟委員說明就是說我們大概在所有訂定這些標準的時候第一個會參考國際標準第二個會進行這個健康風險評估所以這兩個我們都會一併考慮的所以在這一次可能會調整的一個是屬於BSE風險的部分也就是所謂狂牛症風險的部分那我們按照國際的標準重新認定所謂的BSE風險來自於典型的BSE |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15194.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15211.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那麼排除因為老化之後的這個BSE所以這個是根據國際標準來重新做這個定義那第二個呢是殘留標準的部分那那個都做過這個健康風險評估那麼參考了這個考慮了這個國人的飲食習慣跟國際標準還有相關鄰國的這個標準之後那麼來訂定的所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15221.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15238.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
健康風險評估我們都會公告在食藥署的有一個食品風險評估的專區裡面來給大家參考目前歷年都有所以我們再review一下那麼有沒有漏放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15238.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15254.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
好如果是有把這個報告能夠讓民眾很安心的話我相信這個對民眾來講他們在選用這些產品的時候呢就更有所依據是好那第二部分就是強化食安前端的預防跟後端稽查的量能的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15256.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15271.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
最近啦 八卦在二月四月份的時候剛好是清明節嘛 就有一個市場在高雄有個正義市場存全的食物撞毒案那在去年的十月份呢 也有台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15274.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15295.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
風雲烤鴨店一些狀況出現讓民眾來講有這麼多的外食或者是大家在利用節慶的時候準備食物過程當中好像會有一些擔心這種擔心如果層出不窮的話我相信對民眾死的安全真的是要有很大很大要再加強的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15295.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15312.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
那所以加強檢驗一直是我們這個十三五環裡面很重要的一環那現在基本上就承諾要加強這個邊境檢驗跟後市場稽查的管理制度不會改變那我們看到這些狀況出現就會想要那個人力到底是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15313.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15334.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
除了這些制度以外人力上面也沒有問題那在去年其實就在爭取了更多的人力那行政院也針對於這個邊境輸入查案的部分也增加了人力從增加了這個24位變成到105人可是我們好像目前還沒有辦法補到 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15336.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15354.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
這麼完整的人力 現在看起來只有大概85人在這個部分做工作那貨市場稽查的部分是要數目前有79位的這些貨市場稽查的人員好像比原來80人還要少7位 很顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15355.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15375.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
這是這麼重的工作對這些同仁來講可能有一些在招募人才的部分受到很大的限制所以這部分不知道部長怎麼來幫助署長或者是署長有哪些問題可以讓大家知道一下這個人力的招募目前的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15375.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15391.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
跟委員說明 當然行政院支持我們多增加人力但是這一些特別是邊境查驗全年無休隨時機場有進來我們就可能需要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15392.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15420.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那後市場的稽查也有相關的風險所以雖然我們有容額但是不見得照得滿所以我們現在也在研議呢應該在薪資條件的部分也應該要予以提升啦那比較能夠螺翅到這些人力那長期以來雖然我們有薪資的調整可是在專業的部分還有這些所謂危險的佳績的部分我們來爭取看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15423.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15450.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
讓這個人才的螺絲上能夠改善我們看各個地方政府的時日要莊稽查員也真的都相對很辛苦這麼有限的人力等於一個人要平均要負責1200家的業者的這些業務真的很需要各位長官其實給他們加油也同時能夠有更好的機制來幫忙他們來做一些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15451.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15465.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那這一部分其實我們也知道除了這些方面的努力以外那針對於這些食品的安全的部分也非常鼓勵傳統的商家來參加餐飲衛生管理的分級2010年食藥署就開始做這個分級的這些評鑑或者是相關的評核 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15471.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15488.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
看起來百分比很高都能夠達到優惠量可是我們知道他們達到這個優惠量大部分都是連鎖餐飲業者那針對於跟國人生活飲食相關很密切的就是傳統市場跟夜市攤販不曉得這個餐與平和的 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15489.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15513.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
這個百分比高不高那如果這個部分有所缺失或是是參與率不高的時候那目前有沒有好的誘因或者是什麼機制來請我們針對傳統市場或夜市攤販來參與這樣的這個管理分級的這些平和有沒有更好的做法這部分部長或者是署長有沒有好的意見可以給我們做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15516.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15540.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
確實我們現在這個是自願制所以來申請的都是比較具規模的那對這種夜市攤商這個是屬於比較小型規模的那麼怎麼樣來輔導我們來跟地方政府討論看看怎麼樣對這些比較小規模但是又是 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15541.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15564.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
數量很龐大的這些攤商業者來看看怎麼輔導其實有一些地方他們跟那個業事智慧會他們會互相的合作那也提供一些標章可是這是各個地方政府自己處理的都沒有全國統一的一個相關的標章可以來協助這方面的處置模式所以很希望如果能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15565.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15583.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
把這個部分做好的話我相信對於整體的食安尤其我們看到最近的幾個案件應該會有更好的幫助跟委員說我們這個要分級因為過去可能要得到的這一些要通過這樣的平和的話標準會比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15584.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15611.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
但是對這種小型的可能我們要另外一套的那個平和標準比較容易輔導我們再來跟地方政府一起討論再問一下那我們知道這個地方稽查人力真的非常不夠所以針對這個公務體系人力不堪負荷之下那有沒有其他的方式來協助整體國安這個食安的這些改善那我最近就是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15612.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15629.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
是不是能夠參考歐美建立第三方驗證的制度包括可以授權食品技師或者是工衛師在事前或者是在同時平時定期就能夠進行衛生管理製程管控制跟倉儲流程的把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15630.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15645.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
經過這一套制度之下我們又可以把相關的人力能夠引到這個食安的這些需求上面來所以如果能夠真的去做好食安的這個簽證制度讓這樣的這個制度運作的話相信可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15646.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15660.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
同時擴充這個政府的監管量能又能夠強化前端預防機制輔導業者來自主管理那這個其實之前部長或者是深松政委他們也都了解到那也 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15661.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15679.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
表示說不反對有這個建立這個食安的簽證制度可能有助於這個強化事前的預防可是就是怎麼去釐清責任這個部分如何來加強因為這個部分大家會擔心如果前後這個責任無法釐清的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15680.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15701.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
造成這個事權不同意後面的問題就會很麻煩所以不過這個工會他們也認為認同啦這個如果專業人員這個制度建立以後呢就是有權應該當然要有責嘛就能夠把這些責任理清得非常的清楚那大方向大家有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15702.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15732.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那有沒有可能麻煩我們主管機關惡務部這邊可以來繼續或者是開始來思考願意推動這樣的食安簽證制度的推行或推廣對 跟委員說確實過去我們是針對一定規模的會訂有三級品管的方式內部它需要有相關證照人員包含食品祭祀等等那第二級的話就會有第三方的認證制度一定規模的 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15732.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15759.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那第三個才是最終的主管機關的這個稽查大概過去是這三個那但是就如同剛剛委員提到的這個限於這個量能的關係所以可能沒有辦法破解到全面所以如果要全面的話也許就是要導入這個現有的這些人力包含公衛司、食品機制來進行這個食安簽證的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15759.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15782.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
不過責任的釐清,還有負責簽證的人類的資格、條件、訓練等等這個我們來研究一下,那也許是可以來補我們現在稽查人力不足,讓他更往前坐在預防的那一端 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15783.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15797.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
如果這個開始推動這個原意的話那可不可以兩個月給我們一個書面報告方便嗎可以好謝謝那最後就是診所受顧醫師加保全員這個部分其實我想部長也清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15798.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15818.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我們上個禮拜也在勞動部那邊請紅部長還有勞保局的局長針對於如果是診所裡面的受僱醫師是單一的診所受僱或者是多診所受僱的話如何能夠讓他們的勞保的權益可以順利的來得到好的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15819.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15843.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那這部分那個局長是說需要跟這個衛福部這邊來討論相關如何能夠讓這樣的這些在改善的過程裡面有好的一個統計基礎所以是不是可以麻煩部長也能夠認同我們針對這些診所受護醫師在加保的權益上可以有更全面的一些處理模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15843.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15868.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
跟委員說明因為在診所的醫師他會有兩種型態一種他是用合夥關係共同成立所以這個就可能這個不是家保的問題那另外一個才是真的受雇所以現在我們當然直登上一定是只有一個負責醫師其他就是直登醫師但是他們的關係是在我們現在系統裡面看不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15869.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15894.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我們不知道他是受雇關係還是合夥關係所以這個很可能還要透過那個稅捐機關一起勾結如果他在申報的時候他是申報是執行業務所得那他就是合夥關係的認定那可能就沒有這個加保問題那但是如果他是以薪資所得來申報那他就很可能就是雇傭關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15895.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15920.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
那這個就要依照勞基法的這個規定來給他加保所以我們必須要前置的這些數據那可能我們還要不是只有勞動部的這個協助可能還需要這個稅捐機關的協助去勾結他們的這個關係那這部分部長可以幫忙我們再請財政部也提供給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15921.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15943.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
相關在這些診所醫師但是這個因為這個還有各自的問題我們來跟器官討論一下謝謝王正訓委員的諮詢這邊宣告待會在洪孟凱委員訓導完畢後休息20分鐘用餐現在請賴慈寶委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15952.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15960.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
謝謝主席 以及各位先進有請衛務部的石部長以及農業部的杜署長好 賴委員好兩位長官好 辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15969.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15994.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我們看啦 因為今天討論這個Art之後的一個食安的相關的問題啦那現在看到這個剛才有委員關心 委員關心這個問題就是到美國這個也根據我們的食安法第35條規定開放新的肉品以及高風險要擦場 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15996.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16007.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
35條規定很清楚對不對那現在要開放美牛的內臟裡面心啊肝啊腎啊等等這都是高風險部內請問你們規劃要擦場有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16013.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16020.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那個跟委員說明我們去年已經到美國查過系統性查核這個部分你沒查這個啊這個才我們才簽的啊他才簽的啊另外跟委員說明的這是歸類的問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16029.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16041.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
就是說我們在過去BS1的時候呢是把它認定在叫做風險可供國家所以它有部分的這個產品是屬於高風險但是它現在呢已經那個食安法第35條規定這麼清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16048.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16070.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那查場這個ART現在說要簽當然現在還沒有送到立法院但是你們應該要趕快就要去查那個到現在為止沒有你是講去年都已經跟你講是ART簽了以後現在就去簽了只是因為這個臨時美國的狀況所以暫時沒有送進來立法院否則已經簽了開了記者會了這時候你們要去查對不對根據史安法在數調 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16078.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16085.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
好那你生肖後續的話我們都會那你承諾生肖完畢多久以內可以去擦傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16088.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16113.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
現在跟委員提一下因為對於美國相關的進口來台灣本來就已經在系統性查核下已經同意這他們的廠的規格符合制度上面我們最近很少查不是嗎去年都查幾次去年就特別有去查去年是特別有去一次一次 前年呢前年有沒有我問你前年有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16116.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16132.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
我們一直以來都是沒有啊你們查的很少啊這個這個這個現在我們一直開放不要忘了2021年找資料還是我問的那時候市長就叫石崇良石部長那個是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16134.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16160.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那時候市長叫石崇良部長叫陳時中陳時中說2021年要開放30個月的月齡以上的美牛要進來以前是小牛現在是大牛30個月以上的陳時中就說這個新制上路簽一定要去美國查上他公開講的2020年Google一下然後市長叫石崇良 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16161.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16178.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
對 廁場就失聳量也是跟他說戰鬥就是要這樣去啊結果我查了一下你們都沒去啊你們中國去的就是比較有資料的是2014年到2018年查的比較清後面幾乎沒有啊 去年查一次去年查什麼 去年查什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16178.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16195.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
報告委員我們去年的三月份我們特地去做美牛肉茶場那上次呢差幾家這次去的是我們差一家而已啊應該不止吧去的幾家我覺得應該是確定一下是幾家我們去年的時候是去去幾天去幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16197.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16207.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
總共差不多約一個禮拜一個禮拜是一個月的傳播咧我們同仁們有去跟房間署一起前去茶場就去年的三月份已經這個啊這個啊不懂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16210.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16230.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
這個我問同樣的問題 上一次你問你的時候是社長 現在是部長光路主路大了齁 但是你不要一直倒退路啊這個東西人家說啊就千萬大家 多少的民主在電視上最擔心的是什麼我們的食安防線全面撤手 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16231.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16252.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
這裡面我就跟你講這個到現在為止你沒有規劃你今天承諾只要ART生效多久以內可以去查詳你告訴我我們一定會按照這個食安法的規定來進行這樣好不好你公開承諾就是只要ART正式簽訂立法院一通過之後半年內去查詳可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16256.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16275.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
或者這樣的一個教授條件我們應該是對就是說新開放的新開放的新肝腎啊這高風險不會啊很繳肉啊要有他要進來的我們才會查對啊對啊要進來的啊當然啊當然啊我現在就跟你講因為有新開放的啊現在有新肝腎內臟呢新的我們就會查 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16283.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16296.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
不是啦 新的啦 新的場啦如果你之前就已經是舊的那個就不需要啦為什麼不需要他以前有開放的部位啊新開放的部位要去啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16301.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16328.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
半年可以吧正式簽訂也要半年內可以吧其實每年都有固定一次的要查訪那大概都在年中每年至少一次去查幾家就是他核可的五到六家你們把報告給我們好不好因為我查資料都查不到我查資料說2018年以後你們都沒有去查沒有從民國九十幾年到 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16329.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16332.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我跟委員報告我現在關心來來來部長還有跟那個榮譽部有關係的前年越南的華國麵包出問題今年的清明節高雄潤餅潤餅出問題上個禮拜新北便當上吐下吸 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16347.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16359.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
人家查出來了一個農業部放水原來說規定強制要吸選單結果呢你們說鼓勵強制改成鼓勵農業部來講一下為什麼這樣來講一下農業部為什麼這麼大的轉變為什麼原來要強制為什麼變成鼓勵咧你不知道怎麼回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16377.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16401.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
委員好 那個今天我代表薰姆斯出席但因為蛋的部分不是我這邊管理的那據我所知 如果不是你管理就不要上來的是不是好 謝謝好啦 就沒有 部長啊我重點跟部長啊 請問你不是 這個署長你不能回答就是 部長 那我們部長好不好 這個部長你不要去清楚喔這個農業部這樣的改編有沒有知會你 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16402.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16413.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
有沒有告訴你說我們原來是強制現在變成鼓勵有沒有有沒有告訴你沒有啊各做各的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16414.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16432.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
沒有跟你們講啊現在變成是 你要守爛攤子喔 沈部長因為現在責任在食藥署這裡了在你這裡了 食藥署這裡了OK 現在責任在你這裡了所以這源頭管理就變成非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16436.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16452.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
這個現在來看我們這個根據實際有點舊了但是2021年也是better than nothing了台灣的民眾37%用非全熟的蛋比如說Sunny side一邊是生的一邊熟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16454.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16481.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
當然你的拳手比較沒問題啦一扒的人用生蛋日本怎麼做日本用生食級的像是Sashimi這樣來觀控沙門市郡韓國用殺蟲劑抗生素來檢測台灣這裡變成人家日本韓國都越來越少我們現在越來越少那個食藥署要怎麼樣補這一塊不知道你在說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16482.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16486.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
食藥署今天來吧就是你就是來江蘇省 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16488.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16512.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
報告委員針對整個洗選彈這個制度其實主要政策在農業部的政策我知道但是後面是你收尾所以我們我們對於整個政策上面能夠使用尤其這個大量使用的彈能夠用所謂的殺菌的彈 液彈來進行我覺得是最安全的那這部分未來會跟農業部這邊一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16512.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16531.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
你們要跟樓部講一下啦拜託他們放這麼寬從原來強制變成一個鼓勵怎麼會這個樣子到底是什麼考慮啊是不是選舉考慮啊什麼考慮怎麼會這個樣子我們有三十幾趴的人吃不熟的蛋了這個其實風險非常高的對不對部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16535.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16546.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
我們會跟農業部再來討論看看這政策上怎麼去提高我們看到日本 韓國連加強加嚴格我們是放寬結果這個農業部從後這個衛福部十二署的負責人你要擦屁股變這樣子你不覺得委屈嗎我們會來強化這個兩部會之間的合作很委屈 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16563.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16565.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
謝謝勒斯本委員的諮詢 接下來請洪夢凱委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16578.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16598.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
剛剛說了一個大白話我們農業部要更改政策因應食安之前衛福部完全沒有開會沒有討論真的是讓我們國人感到非常的憂心來感謝昭偉那我們請經貿談判辦公室的徐執密然後還有這個先請徐執密好不好來 徐執密委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16602.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16630.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
我想今天開宗明義還是要強調這個對外溝通談判大家都希望努力但是我們是務實不務虛那本席不知道說之前因為你也在這一個我們之前嚴慧心副代表那也在這個辦公室裡面已經很長一段時間本席想要先救教一下因為本席有看到一個新聞到底現在外界講說這個霸凌的源頭是直指是現在的一個我們的總代表楊真理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16631.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16644.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那2024年 嚴慧心報到的時候那有沒有發生過被我們的代表咆哮的事情是不是可以說明一下有沒有看到這個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16645.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16668.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
我有看到 有沒有看到嚴嘉仁講這個是嚴嘉仁所講嘛而且講說當時是有一位徐姓執密帶我們的嚴惠心副代表去他的辦公室坐那之後被楊真妮知道之後爆笑如雷然後之後要求他先出來然後事後特別提到說還跟徐姓執密直接逃銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16670.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16699.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
我們有幾位徐姓執密向委員報告那個裡面講的徐姓執密書應該就是我我們只有一位徐姓執密對 是的那這件事情在這個調查報告裡面在調查的過程當中我都已經有向這個外部委員有說明那如果允許的話我可以在這邊再公開的再說一次我對這個事情完全沒有印象 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16700.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16729.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
你對這個事情完全沒有印象所以報導裡面指出是說該殖密受楊真尼咆哮責罵你沒有印象是我沒有印象那有沒有在你這個同事的過程裡面到底有沒有看到我們經貿辦公室有霸凌的事件或是感覺到有霸凌的氛圍因為其實本席在未還委員會我覺得最重要的就是我們之前討論勞動部的霸凌事件我們討論相關霸凌事件其實目的只有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16730.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16756.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
就是我們不希望有任何人用權勢霸凌來造成公務體系公務部門的不對等然後進一步的有人受到傷害但確實現在顏惠心女士她已經離世當然她離世的真的直接理由是不是跟霸凌有關要等調查報告但我想問的是到經貿辦公室他的遺書裡面寫的就是執行層面充滿消極敷衍的態度你有沒有感受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16758.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16768.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
像委員報告我個人是完全沒有感受到所以你覺得經貿辦公室是一個和樂歡樂充滿朝氣那嚴慧心的遺書裡面寫的都不是事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16770.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16797.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我覺得在那個顏副總在裡面所提到的就是像他講的CPTPP沒有實成沒有計畫CPTPP的部分我完全沒有聽到他有這樣的陳述然後在至於編制化的部分這個部分是我跟他一直有在討論過然後也都有努力過那只是因為後來因為對美談判比較密集那所以這個部分有點耽擱但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16798.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
16816.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
院裡面也是有給我們六位編制內的人員徐志敏我不知道你是誰的人公部門有些時候會看說是誰的人但我覺得如果說今天已經一位副代表副總代表離世然後副總代表他是被媒體預稱說他是曾經服務過兩位總統來協助談判溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
16819.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
16845.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
結果到目前為止這樣子然後你今天這樣講的好像是他的遺書裡面寫的都不是事實我不知道說你這樣子沒關係你有你的立場但現在調查還在進行當中嘛但本席現在在講的是說其實就是一個很重要的部分到底經貿辦公室過去到現在有沒有讓國人覺得說我明明有打CPTPP結果原來大白話是裡面根本沒有相關的一個計畫跟節奏 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
16846.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
16872.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
然後現在楊珍妮總代表我們不管是經濟委員會有邀請過吧今天也沒有來那我不知道說她還可以躲到什麼時候有關CPTPP的部分其實政府的內部都有討論然後相關的部會相關的單位其實都有在分工史無對證嗎所以說她的遺書裡面寫的不是事實也都有在這個史無對證也都有在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
16873.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
16880.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
他沒有辦法再為自己發聲所以他遺書不是事實那如果說這樣的話我請教行政院長為什麼要重啟調查如果說像你這樣講欸 經貿辦公室 和樂 龍恰 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
16886.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
16914.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那行政院長為什麼第一時間還要重啟調查像委員報告有關於調查的事情那這次都是由外部委員在進行調查當中那本院的立場 院裡的立場就是說相關的進度以及調查的方式都是由外部委員來進行跳針式的回答就不用再繼續了因為您剛剛那我真的就我個人所以就我個人知道的部分來回答你剛剛已經回答了嗎來請我們時務長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
16920.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
16941.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
來部長簡單兩分鐘跟你請教因為剛剛我本席很重視這所謂的食安三十五條那源頭管理的部分因為食安法三十五條明確規定給主管機關可以有食安一律的時候源頭管理去做查場那你先講到是說去年三月有針對我們今年要開放的牛血牛脂等相關的部分進行查場 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
16943.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
16962.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
呃 查場的細節我請署長來說明因為我們現在要很明確的了解是說你們查了因為剛剛我覺得賴世鮑委員就是本席也想追問的就說如果說真的ART通過之後我們什麼時候要去做查場因為現在要開放的是美牛以及牛隻的副產品包括牛血牛脂等相關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
16963.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
16985.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
去年有查場到這個部分牛脂跟牛血它是要做飼料的是跟人食用是沒有關係的第一件說明第二件是去年三月份的時候我們其實已經出去去查場那去年三月的時候查是查什麼樣的一個特別是美牛相關這個議題裡面在ART裡面有提到的一些相關議題那我們就針對那個議題高風險的部位的那我們就進行場的查 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
16991.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17005.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
去了一個禮拜 差了四個場來 我請教您是我是食藥署署長我是江署長江署長我們什麼時候關稅美國才跟我們做談判我們什麼時候是去年四月啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17006.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17029.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
川普總統是去年四月才提出說全球關稅提高百分之三十然後之後才開始一個國家一個國家過來做談判結果我們的食藥署超前部署去年三月就先去做針對這些開放的部分先做茶場那你們是已經打了 吃了聖駝鐵了是已經知道說要開放了是不是跟委員報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17030.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17053.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
因為每一年啊你剛剛時序講的不對喔就相關的所謂National NTE是但是你剛剛有沒有提到是說為了這一次ART去做茶廠應該講說這是你剛剛提到的喔為了這個相關的議題啊就是歷年來所謂NTE裡面是就是為了議題但是過去到現在我們有沒有討論過要開放美牛進一步美牛的相關副產品或是美牛更擴大開放其實並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17054.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17082.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
是因為這一次美國總統川普4月之後搞出了一個32%叫全世界大家來談所以我們的經貿辦公室我們的談判代表才去談所以才講是說談到了一個ART而迫於無奈因為我們從32%要調上成20%我們迫於無奈我們要跟日本韓國所以我們必須要開放美牛進一步更大擴大開放但你現在講到一個大白話是原來去年3月我們就要做超前部署啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17082.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17108.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
跟委員報告政府什麼時候做超前部署不是在做管控食安反而在做開放美牛超前部署跟委員報告歷年來的NTE你們對於美牛的議題其實長期都是重要的非常荒謬所以在這個議題上面我們一直都持續的在做我們的是啊那你如果說沒有打算要開放的話你為什麼要去查一些還沒有開放的地方跟委員說來部長我覺得這件事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17110.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17129.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
國人都在看因為現在感覺是全面失守當初怎麼樣罵美牛民進黨政府在野的時候怎麼樣罵美牛講那是毒牛然後2021年要開放進口到現在因為ART你居然跟我們講是說沒有辦法因為我們要競爭力我們要什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17130.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17154.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
有沒有即視感啊那個時候要進口什麼美牛美豬說CPTPP CPTPP如果沒有進口的話會不對等不公平沒有辦法加入四年過去了在哪裡跟委員說明那你現在又再一個超前部署應該是這樣講這個美牛的議題一直在進行當中因為呢這個世界動物健康組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17156.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17185.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
重新發布對BSE的風險管控標準不同所以才需要一直在討論這個議題本席認為喔你們現在說一個謊要一百個謊來講很難啦來 兩個部分給本席一下去年3月你們去茶廠的一個內容報告這可以提供吧那還有請剛剛本席的一樣要求就跟賴司法委員一樣就是說如果說假設未來因為ART現在還沒有送進立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17185.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17207.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那ART到底要不要我們現在馬上急著簽因為這一次美國從2月24號的關稅到現在有一些國家也都還沒有去簽訂也因此如果說150天之後美國政府也要通過國會授權才能延長那我們有沒有急著簽但是送進立法院未來如果說真的有確認相關的話農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17210.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17239.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
衛福部一定要在生效之後即刻啟動查場這樣可以嗎應該是有新申請項目進來因為雖然有開放不見的有申請有申請的我們才會查有申請就一定要查是不是好那請提供相關資料謝謝另外給委員補充就是去年3月份其實我們是美國每年都有例行性的查場你剛剛已經講了你來要不要回放一下為了ART所以說去年3月有最相關的查場 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17240.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17249.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
所以剛剛賴世保委員在質詢的時候才會問說你們要不要新做茶廠 你剛剛還先搪塞講說已經去年查過了 去年查過了 不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17252.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17276.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
欸 才十分鐘前欸 我沒有要我跟你講 今天我們有一說一 有二說二你的時序是不對的而這個不對的時序 所以本席才講說你請提供去年三月茶場之後的一個資料跟紀錄但我們要講去 為什麼現在開放領牛最正點是 所以剛剛 所以現在要承認是剛剛口誤是不是是例行性的茶場 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17278.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17301.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
為什麼會開放美牛為什麼我們要擴大開放為什麼今天專案報告為什麼會有那麼多國人的疑慮啊不就是因為你的ART不就是因為美國的壓力然後說我們要整個開放那沒有幫國人把關然後現在還要跟我們講所以我們現在在講是說站在衛福部站在我們主管機關的角度我們要嚴格把關不要沒有任何的配套好不好 謝謝沒有問題好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17307.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17316.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
現在請委員會再重新宣告 待會在楊瓊英委員詢問完畢後休息20分鐘用餐現在請楊瓊英委員質詢感謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請部長請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17333.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17336.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
兩位人好 部長好等一下 等那個電腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17346.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17374.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
好 部長好你認不認識圖卡上面的這些人這是在11年前為了保護我們的下一代我們堅持修訂學校衛生法也就是禁止基改的食材進入校園藍綠大家一起努力去完成在11年前那所以呢這是我們非常重視的一個食安紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17376.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17399.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
所以在美方2026年NTE的時候的這個報告當中他說 他實際上說 不會希望能夠放寬這個部分那本席要說的 如果在美方的要求我們任意的輕言退讓那同時就是面臨著朝野立委的政治反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17401.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17406.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
所以本席要在這邊來請教基改食品因為當時民進黨告訴台灣的家長說基改食品是給豬吃的飼料及黃豆這句話那孩子在學校因為他沒有選擇權所以政府必須要代位的來把關那不然11年過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17427.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17451.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
現在美國在2026年的NTE裡頭它報告一指責我們說是貿易壁壘那當時的飼料豆突然要變成了食品嗎 請做說明跟委員說明 在我們初步的ART裡面對於基改食品的措施沒有改變所以仍然維持基改食品不進校園 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17452.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17469.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
一定要確定打這個關因為美國指令我們的是什麼呢他說缺乏科學證據但是我要再一次的強調我們當時通過這個法案最重要的最重要是基於學童無權選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17472.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17500.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
他沒有選擇權所以政府必須代位的來管理這個責任就是當時我們通過最重要的學校衛生法已經是明定喔它是 約法是明定禁止四項這個就是說我們通過的法律這是我們主權國家的一個法律根源並不是行政部門可以隨便的來妥協的行政命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17500.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17511.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
所以因此2014年到2025年的時候呢政府跟我們的家長團體大家達成這個共識就是社會契約所以我們長期對於國民認為這個還是有風險的疑慮的一個情況之下絕對 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17519.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17523.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
不能貿然的退讓所以剛剛我要特別強調的美方的經貿報告是美方的立場但是我們台灣學生的參和是我們主權國家的紅線所以我還是要再一次的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17543.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17559.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
部長一定要把關好這個政府一定要把關好不能有任何的退讓對不對跟委員說明目前在R的簽訂的內容裡面呢那麼校園一樣是沒有基改絕對不能有基改使用的還是以國產租屋國產為主好你講那個租屋我們繼續來講萊姬的內帳全租的開放他們也有這個要求你的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17572.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17577.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
我們就是按照科學證據那麼國際的標準然後再經過我們的健康風險評估來訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17579.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17606.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
哇那這個有疑慮喔因為它是要求全部未開放但是我們針對於是這樣牛的部分因為過去在這個BSE也就是狂牛症的風險等級變動了它本來美國是被歸類在風險可控制國家現在是風險可忽略國家所以這兩個在國際標準上它的管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17608.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17626.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
風險可忽略國家是全部都可以進口的它是沒有風險疑慮的所以這剛才本席說的好 不要咬人絕字了本席要強調的要求要 他們要要求全豬開放你們的立場到底是什麼也就是內臟的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17628.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17654.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
如果照剛剛署長 部長你這麼說那個豬的內臟已經開放了所以依照你的說法是如果符合這個標準它是OK的 都OK的喔對對對 就是按照我們的安全容許量所以部長本席認為我們應該要嚴格的來把關因為我們一直強調要怎麼樣讓我們的食安安全我們不能自動的來過濾萊克多巴胺 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17655.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17670.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
我們一定是按照這個國際標準跟國人的健康來把關沒有問題國人的健康把關一定要全面的這個來管控好那現在本席手上拿的是馬鈴薯發芽的馬鈴薯好 發芽的馬鈴薯 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17674.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17685.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
有發芽的馬鈴薯照國人的食用也就是有發芽它因為它含有龍葵鹼它是有毒的所以一定會丟掉這個丟掉本身要請教回應美方技術性的貿易壁壘的一個關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17694.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17701.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
有要研議帶芽切片的馬鈴薯進口加工改由工廠自主篩選有沒有這回事不是這樣簡單的說就是過去在海關齁你這個整批裡面只要一顆發芽整批退啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17711.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
17725.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
現在的做法是如果有發現有這個發芽的話整批封存然後到一個指定的加工地點再去做剔除而不是整批把它退出加工去剔除誰把關你把這個有發芽的你讓他自主去把關他已經切片做成薯條薯片誰知道消費者誰會知道我知道的到底有沒有發芽的馬鈴薯 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
17739.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
17755.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
跟委員說明即使是國內的馬鈴薯也有同樣的情況也都需要做剔除在國內採收之後那麼他保存然後送到工廠一樣會出現有發芽的馬鈴薯所以也是要剔除所以作業上呢誰把官請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
17757.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
17762.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
這個就是我說的技術性的跪下嘛你原本是由政府來把關嘛你現在由工廠自行來把關嘛你不是技術下的跪下嗎對不對 本期再一次強調當這樣子的一個情況當它變成薯片薯條的時候消費者誰會知道我吃下的這些切片式的到底有沒有發芽 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
17784.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
17786.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
對 所以無論是進口 無論是本土我們都一樣的標準在把關一樣的標準所以 署長 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
17794.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
17822.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
政府的風險管理應該由政府來把關而不是由廠商來自主去控管良心控管消費者要求的是我要知道的政府把關然後建立制度那麼這個加工業者呢也要自律所以我們都有標準在所以消費者你沒有問題民眾有問題啊我知道的你如果進口切片式的萬一他是有發芽的那消費者怎麼會知道請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
17823.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
17825.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
都是要地主的 那我們後面還要檢定標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
17827.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
17835.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
我們就有要求廠商自己來剔除嘛糧劑自己來剔除嘛對不對從農地出來的也有可能是有發芽的馬鈴薯我們講到這裡消費者希望要有安全的食品安全的食物這非常重要不要技術性的跪下這個是非常重要這個紅線絕對不能退最後一個議題寵物用藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
17855.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
17859.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
到目前為止大家抗議之後你完全沒有配套在這樣情況之下你跟農業部還好煞車緩了接下來怎麼做接下來怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
17870.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
17876.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
因為本席要求特別針對集中性心臟病氣管擴張這些救命藥這些救命藥你是不是能夠比照人類醫院給予醫師有絕對的備藥權 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
17887.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
17897.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
才不會讓他們醫藥分類的這個情況之下呢變成毛小孩在診間斷氣的理由這是我們很難過因為我們現在的毛小孩已經統計超過340萬隻比14歲以下的孩子還要多我們統計出來那這怎麼辦這些急重症緊急狀況的怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
17912.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
17921.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
跟委員說明目前這個農業部已經有公告701個人用藥品可以用在這個動物身上所以這個701種我們都會確保讓獸醫師可以拿得到所以一定會做到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
17927.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
17937.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
那麼接下來是說流用流向的管理使用的管理的規定會再重新由這個農業部跟我們來會商這個政府有問題啊這麼嚴肅的議題沒有配套你竟然就如此等一下宣布然後再來停止停止民眾更緊張啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
17947.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
17965.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
什麼時候要公告 在新的辦法沒有出來之前都可以供應大家都可以拿得到請教你這個有語病喔新的辦法還沒有出來都可以留用新的辦法出來什麼時候要出來可不可以所以新的辦法出來之前這個701種的人用藥已經公告的部分部長什麼時候會出來什麼時候會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
17968.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
17978.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
你現在講這有語病啊新的辦法還沒出來都可以留新的辦法到底內容是什麼又為一個沒有配套就宣布讓全國緊張的方案出來嗎報告委員那個剛剛部長也講得很清楚我們現在大概會註銷原來的公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
17987.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
17994.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
什麼時候要註銷這個大家很期待什麼時候要註銷這兩天會註銷行政程序順利的話應該是就會很快速來做公告今天禮拜三這個禮拜會註銷已經在這個禮拜會註銷讓大家放心好這個禮拜註銷那新的公告呢那我們先確保一個就是他現在的這個用藥的可以用是維持對是維持是維持那新的公告呢會不會又轉用髮夾彎了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18018.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18029.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
就已經要正式完善這個制度就一定往更好的方向去承認上一次的不完善我們願意接受但是不要再製造人民的恐慌這個禮拜會註銷什麼時候會公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18033.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18062.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
對 就是註銷的移併公告註銷文是一定會移併公告的在註銷文裡面也會確保確保這個藥商跟藥局供應無虞給我們的獸醫院就是他可以留用嘛講最清楚的就是如此嘛所以會在這個禮拜會去註銷跟公告結論是如此是註銷原文的公告啦那你的新公告什麼時候出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18063.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18085.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
不是 那辦法 什麼時候會出來你辦法為什麼時候會出來因為辦法會涉及到整個你大概什麼時候會出來 你讓人民安心嘛你這個禮拜去註銷原公告嘛那你什麼時候辦法會出來啊假設我們還是有進行很多法治以後要跟所有相關利害關係人這個月底會公告出來吧可能因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18089.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18104.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
那個辦法 假設有共識當然行政座也很快所以這個部分要逐條逐條去建構當然是如此所以你們要公告就隨隨便便公告 然後再來註銷然後現在要怎麼樣的辦法還不知道 難怪人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18104.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18107.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
不是 委員現在這樣講是說原來要實施的這個辦法 那綁手綁腳的部分 至少我們將它註銷掉那維持現有的制度 然後我們再重新兩方對 再制定新的 大家的期待第一個 這個禮拜內會將原公告來取消 來註銷 這一個我們達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18126.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18138.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
讓大家放心還是可以備用留用這個一個第二個新的辦法也要儘速去告訴民眾讓民眾能夠安心好不好謝謝謝謝楊卓英委的諮詢現在休息20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18158.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18158.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18176.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18180.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18194.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18220.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18241.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18241.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
鞭筍 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
18257.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
18269.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
謝謝大家的收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
18287.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
18290.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
18306.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
18321.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
剪輯 曲 曲 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
18326.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
18345.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
謝謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
18354.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
18368.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
謝謝觀看,下次見 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
18398.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18398.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18416.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18428.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18436.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
18437.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
無法收穫 超時無法收穫 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
18467.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
18470.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
謝謝大家收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
18501.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
18501.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
三個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
18506.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
18509.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
18519.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
18522.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
然後後面也有後面也有聲音可以聽到聲音可以聽到聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
18549.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
18550.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
18573.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
18595.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
18615.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
18615.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
蝦仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
18646.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
18647.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
通常都開到下午人家委員會都通常都開到下午 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
18651.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
18654.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
兩點,兩點是正常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
18665.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
18666.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
施力 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
18704.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
18705.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
沒有在現時點 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
18711.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
18712.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
18744.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
18744.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
18763.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
18778.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
還好不是巴亞的三角 巴亞的三角比較恐怖 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
18790.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
18790.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
18816.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
18836.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
好,好,好,好,好,好 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
18864.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
18875.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
所以居然就沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
18889.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
18909.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
一二十九分 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
18910.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
18911.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
現在是G2到5了 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
18934.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
18940.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
對阿,這就是我們現在的環境,如果安寧就非常好,但是我無習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
18956.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
18960.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
18968.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
18980.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
對,我還沒做到,有一點不太好,因為他說有張老師,有我老師,我會給他一份禮物 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
18983.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
18999.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19017.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19040.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19041.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19060.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19062.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19090.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
19114.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
19118.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
19141.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
19163.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
謝謝您的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
19171.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
19188.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
他們沒有標誌的年齡,標誌要怎麼來講?他們有標誌的年齡,沒有標誌的年齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
19195.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
19206.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
你剛才不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
19216.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
19219.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
可以這個了 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
19245.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
19251.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
19274.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
19284.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
這怎麼會是橄欖 橄欖會是藥妝藥妝比較不行嘛 容量消費者不認 造型不認 造型不認 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
19301.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
19302.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
看到塔頭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
19326.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
19327.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
三位吃饱了吗吃饱了 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
19338.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
19356.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
昨天那個,他快來了,快來了,自己順便等一下,昨天那個餐真的很好,我覺得很有特色,尤其那個雞湯我從來沒喝過,年糕都是他們做的,等他回來我們就開始吧, |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
19363.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
19367.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
現在繼續開會我們請楊耀委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
19404.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
19414.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
好謝謝主席請一下農業部房間署杜署長杜立華署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
19416.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
19435.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
19437.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
19441.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
不好意思,未完總是這樣子讓大家休息的時間不夠我常講說有八個委員會,這個委員會叫血汗委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
19465.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
19488.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
署長我先問一下非經濟動物施打人類藥品的相關問題所以現在台灣的非經濟動物的陪伴動物的數量其實已經超過新生兒我常常開玩笑講受益比兒科的醫生還受重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
19493.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
19519.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
他們最主要對飼主來講其實寵物跟家人是很相近的最重要的當然就是要讓飼主帶寵物去看醫生的時候能夠得到及時的醫治和取得有效的藥品以現在的國際趨勢在陪伴動物的用人 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
19521.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
19534.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
用人要的趨勢上經常採取負面表列想請問一下署長正面表列跟負面表列各可能產生什麼問題因為我們台灣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
19536.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
19551.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
國際上多數是負面表列我們採的是正面表列各有什麼優缺點各可能產生什麼問題跟委員報告因為這個法在做溝通的時候大概都是朝向正面表列去列 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
19552.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
19560.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
那所以說他以目前來講登錄到人用藥的部分也已經達到700多項那事實上他會再滾動減少會再繼續往上升那這701項大概藥證的部分應該就有一萬張的藥證也就是說現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
19570.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
19589.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
動物醫院或獸醫師要用藥的應該可以得到滿足最大最大數最大數的一個滿足那假設說真的有緊急用藥或特殊性用藥的時候又有一個平台也就是說你可以透過這個平台來做申請那快速審核以後也可以讓你從國外進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
19591.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
19607.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
那蘇長你能不能也大概講一下這個平台的審核是誰在審核像我們提出申請然後我們有透過這個全聯會藥師的全聯會藥師全聯會獸醫師全聯會所以提出申請以後都會快速審核然後通過了以後就直接可以向國外來禁藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
19619.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
19630.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
因為正面表列最大的缺點就是用藥的彈性比較不足啦對不對就是因為因為只能夠在那是因為原來是144項只有216件所以相對是我們的701項 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
19635.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
19660.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
相對是比較少大概僅有20%表列的內容比較不足有時候比較會有問題因為人用藥這一塊的登記跟核准的已經有701項但你轉到動保用藥就是原來的法規上辦法上那你轉到這裡只有144項所以你看到這個差了500多所以大家會緊張會焦慮也就是因為說缺口那麼大那是不是我平時想用的這個藥沒有辦法得到滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
19662.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
19675.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
那現在就是已經把這個障礙排除了也就是701項直接可以讓我們公告為動保用藥所以它用藥已經得到最大的範圍的開放度所以署長這個還是要加強宣傳因為我剛剛講了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
19688.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
19704.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
寵物的數量越來越多那家人的焦慮在政策上可以的話就盡量滿足他們的因為政策拍板以後我們就全力全國開始宣講然後也會跟相關的團體來做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
19707.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
19728.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
政策大概什麼時候拍板應該這幾天如果說整個註銷公告那那完整程序的以後那大概就就相對性會提出另外一個新的辦法那假設我們雙農衛雙方那也有共識那也政策也是往這個方向的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
19728.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
19750.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
我們就會把草案來跟全國所有的利害關係人來做溝通那如果大家在這個溝通的意見又聚攏改變不大那我想這個要實施要公告實施可能速度就會加快所以這個行政程序沒有辦法免除對當然當然我的意思就是說在政策推出以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
19752.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
19767.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
政策的宣導其實還是很重要我一直覺得執政團隊對於各方面的政策宣導其實是比較不足那這個當然原因不在於不全然是執政團隊的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
19769.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
19784.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
因為現在就是資訊太過多元然後雜亂所以很難聚焦那我們可以做到還是要把它做好好不好委員可不可以讓我補充一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
19786.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
19811.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
其實這個這個辦法是從104年啟動動保法的修正以後那您列的這個辦法那這個辦法因為會嫌公告是農未雙方那在這段時間104以後他也經過了104 112 117107 112等等有三次的預告時間對外對大眾的一個預告那從公布113年的2月26號公告以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
19812.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
19836.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
我們雖然大型的有15場對外的說明但我剛剛跟算了一下大四季其實這裡面的大大小小的溝通包括說明就50場了就從113年的2月26號到現在所以理論上不管工會或大型的地方的相關的團體理論上或多或少都有catch到這樣的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
19838.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
19855.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
現在是因為大家現在要施行了所以一些的問題集中的就反映出來那我覺得這可能跟時空背景有很大的改變那加上說現在的用藥的制度跟現在目前的推動的現在使用的方法跟將來被這個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
19857.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
19872.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
約制住有很多沒有辦法會受限制所以當然大家就會提出很多意見那也因為我們是很負責任所以針對這個辦法裡面那也有做整個大架構的修改那朝向 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
19873.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
19889.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
一個我們法規完備法那第二個內容裡面盡量符合現今的狀態那讓動物的生命權跟醫療權都可以獲得最大的保障然後也讓你的公藥或使用跟管理都能夠更加的完善大概是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
19890.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
19908.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
那署長我還是再問一下就是說因為人類用藥有很多是必須要嚴格管制流向的對不對要不然可能造成譬如說濫用抗生素等等的問題那你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
19909.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
19924.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
那未來不論是藥局將藥品寄放到售醫院或者是售醫院直接向藥商購買人用藥品怎麼建立流向的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
19925.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
19949.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
大委員就是大家很關注也是這個衛福部也很關注的管制用藥對這個可能你們要跨部會去做是是是已經有共識就是針對一些管制的部分雙部會會去爐列出來以後那我覺得針對這一些受關注的這些的一個藥品的部分那當然他的管理的一個強度跟流向的殘暴的一個那個強度跟頻度都會再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
19951.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
19973.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
現在還沒有就是會在以未來我們的辦法跟執行上都會納入到裡面來做最大的頻率跟管理制度上的加強一方面也要保障寵物的生命安全另外一方面當然相關的管制藥品應該怎麼跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
19975.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
20003.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
跟衛福部這邊做一個溝通不能說就在人的部分管制的結果非經濟動物的部分沒有因為人用藥畢竟它已經非常成熟的制度我們還是要借盡他們的我就是說因為衛福部這邊已經有一個很嚴格的把關的機制在所以你們可能要跟他們做一下會在行政院體系下我們會合作 同意合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
20004.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
20009.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝楊浩偉的諮詢 現在請洪玉祥委員諮詢謝謝主席 我們有請這個農業部農業部杜律師 杜署長派洪委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
20035.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
20054.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
我想這一次這個是搞得大家人仰馬翻你可能知道我們這個地方的這個黨部的電話接不完那接不完反映的是什麼我想這個你在FB上面或者是在所有的這個網站那我們接的電話都是這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
20056.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
20073.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我的毛小孩醫用氧氣不足拿罪藥然後我半夜要去拿東西我想這你們該都知道那受醫師就說毛不合道然後就是這些東西問他說這怎麼辦什麼沒有登錄這就是問題這已經發生了那我的問題就是說奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
20082.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
20092.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
這個東西他如果按照我們之前這個剛剛這個農業部這個也說了其實這個問題起源很早了 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
20094.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
20121.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
20可能我看是在2012年事件發生以後對那因為他很多事件啊有很多事件的交錯啊比如說你可能這個呃獸醫在用的時候用到尾藥嘛然後發生一些風波嘛對不對然後這一個呃我我我這個藥商對不對他可能也怕觸法嗎所以我也不能不敢供貨給這些的動物醫院所以呢在呃我們動保法那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
20123.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
20148.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
也就是在我們動保法第4條裡面第二項我先稍微念一下這個我想早上我也聽過這個我想講了很多治療動物疾病之藥物不足只有中央主管機關公告之人用藥物類別得了獸醫師括號佐填入診療紀錄使用於犬貓及非經濟動物那你的第三項基本上就是你會在根據前項這些人用藥物制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
20149.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
20167.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
這樣子的一個管理的一個辦法所以我這邊的用字不好不要寫修正 自定對不對管理辦法我們是不用審的就送來備查因為就是你衛福部跟農業部的事情好 113年就公告了對不對113年就公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
20169.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
20194.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
再來是7月要實施嘛公告寫了這一堆我想這個當然藥商有藥商的困擾啦因為他整個包裝啦食材成分啦對不對然後副作用等等用量這些都要做那我們也都清楚反正獸醫師現在目前醫藥也沒有分離嘛所以你們在這個第四條這個就是使用管理辦法裡頭能用藥品都有保護藥品這些等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
20195.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
20204.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
這也都有寫了很好啊都寫了可是就在要實施的時候哇一堆的火就跑出來了就很奇怪啊就兩年了你要公告之前我就在想這就是奇怪了行政的怠惰就在這邊啊你也知道要藥商要去登錄嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
20219.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
20244.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
可是他登錄就是很麻煩還是說他登錄的意願不高不管是誘因不足嘛我們也知道動物用藥在人用藥的話量就很少嘛我不需要我花這麼多錢去做這台藥品可是這個跟我們這些毛氏族跟都是寵物的對不對我們毛小孩這些的氏族跟這些獸醫師來講他就造成很大的suffer |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
20246.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
20255.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
好所以呢這個地方哎兩三百萬嘛對不對選舉也快到了呢啊現在帶這個康出來我就覺得怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
20255.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
20280.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
然後我們還被青鳥車一甩鍋說這個是我們前領域軍委員用的完全就不是嘛當時鑰匙理會是這個黃金順現在的總統府的國策顧問然後這個辦法也不是說我剛剛講過管理辦法嘛這你們送來立法院備查我們也不用審而且他是2月20幾號送過來的才剛當2月1號不久不可能去制定法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
20281.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
20308.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
所以我是覺得這些東西就是造成了大家的很多的痛苦那我的意思是說為什麼會這樣子就是民意的反撲之後然後你們也慌張的開了4月12開個會最後喊卡那當初制定這個管理辦法為什麼會這樣那個好報告委員是如果委員今天如果想去看這個原來的公告辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
20310.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
20330.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
那這個原來的辦法會今天自然難行是第一個他一定要人用藥轉為動物用藥所以他一定要登記那剛剛您也有談到我在登錄的過程之中我今天是人用的藥商我要轉個身份到動物的藥商除了你來登錄我還是要再強調其實我們登錄一定簡便話 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
20332.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
20338.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
一週你來申請登錄所以是誘因不足我再簡單更簡單一點因為時間不多所以說他考慮的很多當然有誘因也是一個問題成本也是一個問題那第二個就是貼標籤要標籤化你要貼標籤好那我比方說我們今天有一個十盒一個外包裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
20354.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
20360.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
那麼依照我們現有的方法你講的都困難嘛但是這個離毛小孩離寵物離動物的東西所以我要說為什麼這個辦法這個辦法自然來行我現在時間快一點因為早上我請這個這個衛福部可能署長就好了啦部長坐就好了啦你們吃飯坐就好了來 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
20373.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
20396.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
就是啊你們兩個鼠吼啊丁哥那亂七八糟現在根據早上吼衛福部部長的說法也就是說根據動保法第四條第二當你們現在暫緩實施甚至剛剛你講過的對不對我們就是把它公告這個作為辦法先註銷那這樣子的話我根據動保法第四條第二項現在本來就可以用嘛是吧好 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
20399.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
20425.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
知道我們的這個台大獸醫系的名教授對不對葉立生農業部應該知道嘛去看一下人家FB現在這些獸醫師反映的是這些很多藥我拿不到比如說像這個寄生的沖洗液中孔大孔的非常好沖洗現在只有小孔可以用然後你跟他藥商訂貨說現在沒辦法我沒有登記所以我就不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
20428.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
20439.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
他寫的這不是我寫的你們去查沒有不用說明了我就是說你們常常跟我們講說沒問題都不會有對不對早上部長也這樣都不會有也有但是現在收益室的反應就是沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
20444.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
20472.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
那藥廠給你的回答就是說對不起我現在就不出貨很多喔你去看這個葉老師的這個FB他是請各個收益師東西列出這個所以你們要去體察這些的民情好不好那我是覺得針對這些東西既然我還是覺得有一個矛盾啦如果你根據第四條第二項現在就可以用的時候然後你這個辦法也註銷了對不對你也說現在都可以了那我就請各位真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
20473.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
20485.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
不要再制定了還是你要制定出來又會產生新的災害我不知道因為如果根據我們石部長講的動保法第四條第二項我只要經過主管機關公告就可以了是不是這樣目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
20489.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
20515.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
後面的是我們在第三項裡面特別提到那使用管理的辦法所以現在是要在辦法的部分讓他的管理能夠更清楚因為除了使用現在辦法還沒出來我們部長就說了啦對不對你們先註銷然後收益師都可以要保障用到藥起碼在這個短期的期間你們要去看看這個葉教授的對不對哪些是有缺的這個是你們兩個鼠要去通力合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
20516.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
20527.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
沒問題 我們這部分也有跟我們的藥可以啦 就緊急用藥的啦然後讓獸醫師診所這些東西可以照顧我們這些毛小孩的氏族可以啦 是的OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝委員謝謝洪義祥委員的諮詢現在請張雅琳委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
20541.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
20548.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
好 主席 我們有請農業部的房間署跟食藥署吧有請杜署長 江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
20553.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
20569.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
好 謝謝那我想今天早上其實已經聽到就是說我們這個辦法會註銷那我先簡單問一句那這個因為我看到新聞上面也有講說我們好像也有在新的辦法在討論了對不對好 那我想要先確認幾個事情因為我們之前這個爭議其實真正的關鍵在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
20572.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
20587.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
其實不是申請有多複雜啦也不是門檻有多高啦其實就是後面的出貨行政作業太複雜啦程序太複雜因為呢人用藥轉為動物用藥之後的貼標制度到目前為止這一塊其實並沒有被真正的解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
20592.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
20610.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
所以人用藥之所以要貼標這主要就是要做用途區隔跟流向管理也就是避免誤用在人身上同時讓主管機關可以掌握藥品的流向那但是呢這整個制度呢問題就是在於這整個制度忽略了一個最基本的問題就是GMP的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
20612.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
20631.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
這邊跟委員報告一下我們現在藥廠當然是PIC GMP的藥廠我們針對這個貼標轉換成我們現在的動物保護用藥的過程當中如何協助它貼標在貼標的過程其實我們會跟農業部這邊協作不一定要在PIC GMP廠內做貼標我們可能是在盤商可能是在經銷商 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
20632.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
20646.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
過去有跟大家溝通這件事情嗎跟藥廠溝通這件事情嗎這件事情我們在新的制度持續的把這件事情能夠確立下來因為最後的方式的話還需要有很多stakeholder的溝通所以這邊我們持續會做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
20648.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
20667.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
好我了解了因為我想這個我不太確定是多久以前有溝通但是因為這是我們最近這段時間跟藥商這邊來了解了他們提到的問題其實是在這裡就是這個異地貼標對大家來說難度實在是非常的高所以就是說他們也有提出一個解方既然因為你已經也非常你們也非常清楚了就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
20670.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
20689.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
大家的期待就是說我們不要選擇成本這麼高也這麼不符合食物的管制方式我們可以透過中盤來做標示分流甚至搭配流向申報或是記錄機制來達到同樣的管理目的那這樣子呢可以避免藥廠因為GMP批次出貨整批改標所產生的高成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
20690.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
20714.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
那也能夠維持藥品的流向可溯及性甚至更貼近食物流通的運作方式那這個看起來剛從您的回答裡面也是你們雙方都已經同意了往這個方向來努力對嗎對的謝謝委員的提示也是整個的方向這樣子對能夠貼近使用端能夠取得方便性以及在藥商供應的時候他們也可以完成我們的標示的辨識性 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
20716.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
20737.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
我想我還是會覺得說我們在整個處理的過程之中我們應該有行政怠惰因為這件事情其實如果更早之前我們了解為什麼藥商來登記這麼少的時候就應該要積極來協助而不是等到現在這個時候才來想這個辦法再來就是說我們新的辦法會不會從負面表列的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
20738.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
20762.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
這也是大家非常關注的因為其實最主要是說我們對於一些基本的胃藥工具像是ECC的針頭來說或者是脫水常用的乳酸鄰隔試液與蝴蝶針或者是兔子等特殊寵物要用的這個優利酥保濕型點眼液這基本上在現在的藥局不管是連鎖的社區藥局它通通都領不到它通通都買不到所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
20763.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
20782.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
大家就會期待說我們是不是可以像多數國家一樣是採取負面表列的方式或是類似的制度也就是原則性開放例外限制並搭配受益的專業判斷跟事後管理而不是全面的事前限制所以我想了解我們新的方法新的辦法是不是也可以往這個負面表列的方式來努力呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
20783.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
20808.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
這邊跟委員做一些說明的確委員這邊做了非常完整的一些說明那以美歐日三個區域來提的話管理機構在美歐其實是分別是FDA跟EMA可是在日本的話其實就像我們類似台灣我們是其實很多是跟日本制度比較近一方面是後生勞動者一方面是農林水產省的就一個人一個是動物 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
20809.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
20825.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
那採取的方式供藥的部分其實是藥局或者藥商都是採取雙軌制對於正面表現負面表現的部分我們看到日本其實是原則上面規範如果沒有替代用藥那獸醫師會做判斷所以我們現在目前對於動保用藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
20826.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
20844.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
也經過就我們了解是雙方做一些溝通之後也跟我們的獸醫師能夠確立哪些是需要的能夠進入我們的所謂的動保用藥目前是偏向這樣負面表列這個部分我們持續在這個部分我們會針對這個部分去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
20845.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
20866.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
我想部長可能要補充 對嗎好 我來直接把這個做一點原則性的因為在動保法的第四條第二項談到是藥物就是當動物用的藥物不足的時候由人用藥物這邊公告去使用那藥物包含了醫材跟藥品那從醫材的角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
20868.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
20884.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
這個選擇性太多我們沒有辦法正面表列做不了所以醫材的部分應該採用負面表列它的這個風險管理程度也比較低就只要針對一些非常高風險的去排除就好但是藥品的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
20885.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
20907.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
那涉獵的風險度就比較高裡面有很多是麻醉藥啦很多管制藥抗生素等等的那可能初步還是用正面表列那麼會比較安全性的管理所以大概可以採取這樣的方式來思考因為它這個法裡面把這個藥物兩個通通框進來了醫材跟藥品都框進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
20908.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
20918.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
好 了解 那我想問一下就是說因為這個畢竟還是希望可以請聽第一線的聲音所以我想了解的是說我們現在有沒有規劃大概什麼時候會來找我們相關的不管是收費師團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
20921.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
20943.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
對 公會來討論這樣子謝謝委員因為這個新的辦法嘛 大家都非常關注對 這個註銷公告然後公告了以後那我們也會同步來討論 凝定這個草案當我們凝聚了這個草案內容以後那獲可以後 我們大概就會全國開始來溝通進行宣講然後收集大家的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
20944.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
20965.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
對 是全國開說明會還是座談會因為這兩樣 說明會比較是我公告你 我告訴你什麼所以我們應該是座談會吧 座談會的形式收集大家的意見大概是什麼時候呢 有沒有一個預計的時程表如果我們雙方都對這個草案 我們也預定說如果達成共識的話 看給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
20967.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
20992.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
還是要一段時間啦 可能幾個月的時間 可能三個月好 那我們兩個月之後再來關注一下你們的進度好不好因為大家都非常關注這件事情那最後一件事情就是說我上個禮拜在這個農業部的諮詢的時候也有特別提到啦就是有關於野生動物在取得藥物的時候難度非常的高畢竟相對的距離還是很遙遠畢竟在像野灣所在的台東池上想光取得人物的用藥都非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
20993.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
21016.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
所以我是希望 那他們上禮拜其實也有那個林業署的同仁也有出席相關的會議所以我也是希望說在我們考量這個辦法的時候也要邀請我們野生動物相關的救傷團體林業署來去聆聽他們的聲音因為也許他們的困境又比我們想像來得更高 可以嗎已經納進來了 對 他們的意見都已經納進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
21018.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
21036.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
對 但是你接下來還要開相關的座談會嘛這個都是一定要邀請他們的好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝詹雅琳委員的質詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在接著請郭育晴委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
21045.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
21048.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
好謝謝主席有請部長有請施部長各位好好部長這個關於這個4月10號我先就是代表所謂的這個厲害的關係人包含4組那先跟兩位部長包含這個我們的衛福部另外還有我們的農業部我們先表示這4月10號我們延緩這個7月1號這樣子的一個動物用藥的新制上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
21074.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
21097.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
緊急的喊煞車給予肯定但是其實在整個所有的這個過程當中我想大家不是在所謂的這個制度的設計而是整體的一個一線我們在食物的狀況所面臨到的一些困境那我再次的強調因為其實台灣有超過200萬的四主的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
21098.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
21126.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
另外有340萬以上的寵物那我想這個是非常龐大的一個數字那我想很多人是把我也是我家裡有五毛我有五隻我有貓有狗所以我也是利害關係人但是雖然我那天沒有參加這個研商的會議但是其實我也在場外我先表示肯定但是我想大家還是要關心憂心所謂的結構性的一些問題我先點出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
21127.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
21153.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
那包含這個用藥有沒有可能還是會被限制那另外行政的程序會不會影響整個所有醫療的一些效能那另外實務上是不是還存有所謂的灰色的地帶因為在4月10號的那天我們看到有一些一線的獸醫師他其實已經在會內已經有講了他們現在其實在用藥在取得藥物的部分已經出現困難了那我想這是已經是目前已經看到的有可能在用藥的部分會斷鏈的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
21155.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
21170.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
狀況那4月10號已經有獸醫師提到這個問題第二剛剛我一直聽到所謂的貼標我想請問這個貼標的成本最後誰來吸收因為我們知道藥局他要控管的這些費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
21170.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
21192.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
還有誰要來負擔會不會最後他還是回過頭來轉嫁在所謂的四祖就是我的心胸我有五毛對不對會不會轉嫁在我身上那請記得我不斷的一直在強調因為現在就算我們家的毛小孩要去就醫我們的四祖是全額在負擔因為動物沒有健保 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
21193.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
21206.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
都沒有健保啊那請問這貼標的成本你們有想過嗎誰要來吸收誰決定吸收誰願意吸收這個很重要第三個就是要還是要回歸到我講的獸醫師的用藥自儲權一個獸醫師我請問部長您知道要養成一個獸醫師他需要多久的專業的訓練嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
21216.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
21243.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
我記得學智商是六年至少五到七年最不好是六七年以上他才可能會是所謂的獸醫師但是問題是我們現在美其名說因為藥事法因為我們的這個人類用藥我們人用藥的部分我可能要藥師進來請問這個藥師突然進來的尷尬的一個角色可以凌駕在獸醫師用藥自主權之上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
21244.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
21247.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
他們比較專業藥師比較專業還是獸醫師比較專業回歸到本質我們應該是要顧慮的是獸醫師用藥的自主權好再來第四點 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
21259.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
21280.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
法律未接的不確定性啦雖然現在我們是延緩感覺上是放寬但是問題是一旦這個所謂的放寬的措施頂多就是仰賴所謂的韓式或者是用所謂的行政命令那一線的受益師還是會擔心啊我的位子在哪裡啊我今天不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
21281.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
21310.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
那或者是我今天可以我明天會不會不行我後天是不是真的就沒藥用了我想這個部分我們還是不要讓在一線的醫療的尤其是動物醫師獸醫師的身上處於長期法律的灰色的地帶在這裡我給這個兩個部會其實大家今天都有來我給幾項的建議第一我先確保獸醫師的用藥自主權我想呢在藥品 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
21311.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
21337.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
進入到所謂的動物醫院之前人用藥的部分當然是由衛福部來主管但一旦這個藥進入到了獸醫師的醫療現場麻煩把這個部分回歸到農業部去監管而不是兩邊對兩邊大家一直在站著自己的本位主義結果中間很大的一個空窗我要四組來負擔啊這不公平啊非常的不公平啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
21338.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
21359.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
第二點落實負面表列的過渡機制剛剛其實也有委員特別提到我想這是一個方向雖然我們剛剛有提到說包含一些比較重要的管制的藥品或者是所謂的高風險的抗生素之外那我們是不是能夠從所謂的逐向核准變成所謂的負面表列 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
21360.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
21386.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
我想這個是一個參考的方向也是很多的我們的獸醫師他們提出來他們希望的我們可以學美國我們可以去看日本人家怎麼做用藥的自主權也很重要負面表列也是一個可行的方向第三點明確的動物診療機構的法定地位我們讓他確定好嗎好嗎這個部分我想如果我們把所謂的動物診療的 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
21388.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
21405.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
機構明確列為合法的藥品供應的一個對象他就不會因為各地行政的含釋不同而會有不同的偏差這也是要維持整個所有他們在醫療上面的一個穩定的一個效率再來第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
21406.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
21434.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
也是結論啦齁急重症還有偏鄉這個可敬性的配套啊一定要到位好嗎一定要到位沒有解決我剛剛所說的這些問題之前我想這不是只有暫緩讓人家還是一樣我還是心生恐懼啊你就算暫緩我很擔心我今天你會贏的明天不會贏的啊我會怎麼樣明天我沒有空醫醫我的毛孩子他是我的家人欸那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
21435.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
21453.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
所以我說真正的問題沒有解決之前根本不能談上路這兩個字可以嗎跟委員說非常認同這個剛剛委員所提的這幾個重要的重點跟方向這個我覺得很認同那麼為了讓大家不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
21454.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
21467.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
擔心其實這個這個辦法還沒有上路根本還沒有上路那是7月1號那因為可能很多的業者開始擔心所以不敢出藥沒有啊那所以呢我們會依據在這個新的辦法還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
21470.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
21493.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
這個公佈之前呢我們會由食藥署來發函給所有的藥商他們可以依據這個受醫師的請求那麼去出貨這個部分我們一定因為我們都知道目前現階段701項當中只有216項有登錄嘛真正的有登錄的這個系統當中我們看到的是140幾項而已嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
21495.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
21513.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
但是這個701項之後還會增加呢還會再增加呢我們現在第一步就是至少這個701項一定可以穩定供應不會受到困擾藥商就是可以直接提供給受益室來使用不用繞過藥局 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
21514.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
21539.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
第二個呢這個在獸醫的治療上面並沒有這個醫藥分業所以還是由獸醫師來主導所有的治療診斷跟用藥包含藥物的這個調劑這些都是他並沒有跟這個人醫一樣有醫藥分業的制度這個我們也把它確認那麼第三個呢那未來在這個制度設計的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
21540.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
21555.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
那一定會考量到剛剛您提到這幾個夜間那麼其實人藥也是一樣啊也有夜間也有偏鄉也一樣所以這個制度上呢也一定都會考量進來讓他的這個用藥的可敬性要能夠提高好 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
21556.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
21571.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
那也謝謝部長那謝謝農業部其實願意傾聽這個一線所有的市主他們的心聲動物不會講話但市主要幫忙他講話我是市主其中之一啊我也在這裡幫我的毛小孩講話可以嗎也幫一線的獸醫師加油打氣可以嗎好謝謝謝謝謝謝郭益群委的諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
21581.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
21589.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
鄭政權委員鄭政權委員鄭政權委員不在接著請黃婕委員黃婕委員黃婕委員不在接著請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席我們請杜署長請杜署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
21615.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
21639.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
署長我相信從早上到現在很多委員都非常關心就原本我們7月1號要上路的這個我們的這個管理辦法那因為我們在前兩個禮拜也聽到很多的這個受益師跟事主的一個陳情那我剛剛也聽到就是說我們這個辦法就是先暫停註銷先註銷註銷那註銷當然就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
21644.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
21664.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
就是還照著還是你們會再另外再另外再去自定心辦法自定心的辦法那在這當中我希望就是說能夠多溝通因為不論是獸醫師四組或者是我們的這個藥商我覺得應該是大家要多溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
21665.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
21694.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
因為一個這個辦法要開始上路其實我不知道說前幾次你們是不是有跟這些相關的人有一些溝通那如果有溝通的話為什麼會在即將上路然後大家才會有這樣的一個意見所以我希望如果你們7月1號這個要開始這個已經註銷了那未來如果要再制定新的辦法我希望說你們真的要跟地方的人好好的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
21695.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
21701.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
另外我們也提到關於我們房檢署這邊也有說701項人類的藥品可以供犬貓來使用其中216項是有登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
21711.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
21728.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
當然就是說其實為什麼藥商他不願意去登錄或者是說是因為太麻煩嗎或者是因為這個市場太小對市場太小對那這個如果是市場太小的話那是不是有什麼樣的更 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
21729.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
21752.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
更方便的方式譬如說你剛剛有說這個可能要貼標籤那會不會又增加這個成本或者是說可以讓他們用更方便的方式那又可以管理的方式來登錄我覺得這個也許可以再跟這個藥商可以再多溝通謝謝委員 已經在往第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
21753.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
21769.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
他已經沒有所謂登錄了所以701項就可以轉為這個動保用養那第二個就是說有關標籤化的這部分剛才講的GMP GDP都已經去除掉了會更簡單更簡化所以我想那意願就會高那第三個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
21769.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
21781.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
其他他們考量的問題就是包括說夜間 偏鄉 緊急或其他的這些全部都有納入到我們的這個思考的範圍所以我想農會兩雙方一定會就這個的一個草案內容會 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
21786.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
21797.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
還戴大家現在目前所有的意見然後讓大家第一個有藥可以用第二個簡化方便性、可及性甚至於特殊案例也有管道可以解決這樣的一個用藥的問題我們往這個方向來 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
21802.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
21824.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
我希望就是說這個風波這樣過去之後已經註銷那未來如果新的辦法出來我覺得應該是大家充分的溝通然後大家是可以接受的一個方式來上路會會會會遵守那署長另外一個問題除了這個之外我想請教就是說我們現在彰化田委地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
21826.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
21844.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
就是說花卉生產花卉生產很多的地方那在前陣子就是我們有一些花農有特別提到就是有一些花卉是從國外進來花卉從國外進來那造成這個地方的這個產業的一個衝擊可能有的是銷價競爭就有一些衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
21850.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
21871.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
那我想請教署長的部分就是說不論是我們的花卉或者是我們的這個農產品好像前陣子的那個蒜頭那要讓國外的這個農產品進來其實一方面花農他們的建議就是說在檢疫方面是不是可以能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
21872.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
21888.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
這個我們這個房間署這邊能夠針對要進來的這些農產品好譬如說蒜頭他如果是有帶土的話那你們就不能那麼輕易讓他進來嘛帶土絕對是不行對那如果花卉的話如果他有某一種的這個蟲 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
21891.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
21903.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
蟲或者是菌那是不是也要嚴格的把關我想請教這個署長針對這一部分因為是很多農民在做一些反應因為畢竟國外的這些農產品進來其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
21906.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
21933.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
應該都是比國內的還便宜他們才會有利可圖那這些業者才會想要從國外進來那如果像這樣子的話國內的這個農產品他已經足夠供國內使用那是不是可以在這個房檢的這個部分能夠嚴加的把關從農產品如果他是帶土那會危害我們台灣的這個本土的這個農產的話那是不是可以在這方面能夠再嚴加的把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
21935.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
21945.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
謝謝委員 其實只要根部進來 植株帶進來有土 絕對是不行 是 一點都不行所以不管 譬如像現在也有一些貿易是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
21946.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
21967.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
日本進來大直的那個盆栽那個都要裸耕就是土一點都不能帶來怕一些土壤性的一個病原菌會帶進來那另外就是說每一種的植物都有它經過風險評估也有我們制定在檢疫上要檢疫的變蟲愛像那第三個就是任何的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
21968.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
21992.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
這個邊境的一個檢疫的我們動植物的一個檢疫已經會對接到國際的相關的一個規範然後再制定我們國家比較注意的甲類啊乙類啊這樣的一個變種案去做守門員那第四個就是我們標準一定一致也就是說我們有四個分數那四個分數不管你在哪一個的港口你進來的標準一定要一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
21993.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
22016.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
那至於說國際貿易來講當我們的檢疫的標準制定以後那開放了以後那這個就走的就是國際貿易那除非有些是關稅的綁住比如有一些配額那或者是關稅的等等這些那或者是有些在中間可能涉及到我們國際市 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
22017.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
22032.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
要跟制定了其他的相關的一個約制可能有這樣的一個考量但是在檢疫方面以這個條件制定了以後我們就依照這個規定嚴格去做執行不會有鬆動的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
22033.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
22054.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
我當然希望就是說在這個檢疫這方面尤其是在港口港口或者是要進來我覺得就是說房檢署第一個就是要嚴格把關那也避免就是說台灣的這個農產品會因為我們在這個第一關這個沒有嚴加的把關然後可能有一些帶土帶菌進來然後造成我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
22056.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
22067.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
這個地方的這個農產品的一個損失再來就是說這個我剛剛講的這個花卉的部分其實就是說我們的這個花卉如果可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
22070.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
22087.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
我們這些貿易商如果要進來那他應該就是說有利可圖那如果說我們如果能夠再嚴加的來把關的話其實會讓這個貿易商也許他會覺得說那我就是直接再採購我們國內的這些花卉就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
22087.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
22109.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
那不會從國外這樣子這個採購比較便宜的這個花卉進來我的意思是這樣子所以我希望就是說房間署在這方面應該一方面就是為了我們國內的這個農產品這個不要受到國外的這個菌或者是蟲的一個危害這個在第一關要嚴加的把關然後另外就是說在這個把關的過程當中有一些這個他們會覺得說那我要經過層層的關卡也許 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
22117.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
22136.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
很麻煩那我就直接採購我們國內的農產品所以我希望就是說從這個角度上面來看就是希望我們這個房檢署在這方面能夠替我們國內的這個花農也好或者是這些農民來做再進一步的一個來思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
22138.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
22162.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
最後一個補充就是跟委員報告就是說在邊境的一個檢疫方面其實我們是非常的嚴格那甚至有時候抽樣都已經加成去抽樣了那所以說我們也很害怕就是你鬆散了以後那有些病原帶進來以後那造成的浩劫真的是沒有辦法想像所以基本上來講只要是我們因斯檢疫的品項上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
22163.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
22183.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
其實我們都這個標準都都制定在那而且是嚴格的去做執行但至於說是在貿易上的考量那可能就不是在檢疫以外做另外的一個調節機制等等這些可能是又另一個層次的一個考量了那我們當然就是希望就是說在房檢這個房檢署你們的這個職權上面能夠對於農產品的這個檢疫能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
22190.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
22202.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
再更就是說在這方面能夠這個把關然後讓我們的這個農產品不會因為有帶菌或者是帶蟲然後進來危害我們的農產品好吧是好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員的諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
22225.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
22234.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
好接下來請盧憲一召委質詢謝謝主席現在請部長我應該是最後一個了大家可以放鬆心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
22237.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
22265.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
趙偉好因為針對今天的問題大家都聽了很多那不過本席的立場就還是針對偏鄉或者是一些可以可見的一些問題在救教我們部長那其實我們剛剛看到就是其實我們是肯定我們國際談判的努力不過就我們的貿易報告裡面看看你現在看到說我們我方有承諾要中止牛舌牛精的部位還有竹香跟解凍的查驗程序所以我想說現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
22266.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
22276.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
重心從邊境延伸到後市場跟地方端執行的時候有關風險評估配套資源資訊公開跟偏鄉的執行量是不是已經準備好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
22279.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
22296.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
而委員指的是偏鄉的量呢沒有不一定 我就是說現在我們的本來是高強度的邊境我們在邊境的茶宴現在變成是抽菸嘛 追蹤或市場的茶盒這些那我說我們有沒有比較明確的一個標準出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
22298.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
22313.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
我們一向在這個邊境查驗有一定的風險分級的抽驗標準所以可以根據查核的結果譬如說像過去已經查了大概1萬多批次都是沒有問題的那當然我們就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
22314.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
22327.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
回復到這個一般查驗規定那比例上就是從這個2到10%為主那如果有特殊的我們也會提高到20到30%所以這個會根據我們那個風險的程度來做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
22332.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
22361.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
至於後市場的部分還是會維持原本在後市場的這個稽查方式包含標示的稽查這個散裝這個包裝或者是飲食場所這個都要明顯標示產地這個也一樣會做那另外在後市場上也會做抽驗這個產品再會回去抽它的這個萊克多巴胺的這個標準是不是符合這些都會都會按照這原本的規劃來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
22362.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
22390.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
對 就希望說這些替代的抽菸計畫或是上的稽查分工跟地方的這些能夠用書面的形式來給委員會說明好 我們來等觀察的資料我們提供給趙總讓民眾安心好 再來就是我們現在的那個萊克多巴胺的這些檢驗方法就是現在有些就可能也會調整它的劑量或者是檢驗方法那我想說這樣的一個評估結果能不能有每一劑或是每年的一個對我們暴露以後我們對國人的一些健康的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
22392.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
22420.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
在我們調整這個MIL標準的時候都會有事先的這個健康風險評估然後才具以參考國際的標準再根據我們所做的健康風險評估來核定至於檢驗方法最主要是對齊國際的檢驗標準不然的話那個定的標準一樣可是檢驗方法不一樣的話就會產生落差所以我們現在是一方面要把這個檢驗的方法呢跟其他國家是一致這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
22421.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
22445.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
大家驗起來才會相同不然他驗他合格我驗會不合格所以這個要一致那標準的部分我們也是按照略略以後我是覺得說可能也是要衛福部這邊要留意是哪些族群要特別注意比如說消費者到市場或者是超商或是餐廳的時候他應該要看到什麼標示讓他警惕啊或者是說提醒自己我是覺得這個把關這個部後面這個部分應該是也要做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
22446.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
22471.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
好好對這個民眾宣導的部分我們也會來講那馬雲署的部分是大家都今天都講了很多不過我想知道說我們不能是期待業者自律嗎那個機制要怎麼做你是不是給完全給廠商去做一個類似像良心的一個所謂的剔除嗎比如說我們分選不實或者是報廢不實劉相有沒有追蹤這些有沒有做這樣的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
22472.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
22498.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
我們不會只靠業者自律所以在邊境的部分他還是會有處理如果他的這個比例過高的時候還是可能會整批要替回的只是說過去只要裡面有我們就整批退回那這確實是也不合時期因為在國內一樣會有同樣的狀況所以就是採取後面到指定的加工地點去做這個剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
22500.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
22508.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
那至於說怎麼樣去管理這個剔除加工的過程那當然由我們這個食藥署會訂出相關的規範來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
22510.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
22532.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
我是不是也請署長補充一下謝謝委員提問我們對於有些腐爛發霉的其實我們就會再製再製廠之後其實要再次確認之後才會放行所以並不是說他們的業者自律相信他這是我們行政部門持續的把關確定完之後還是會重新再看 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
22534.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
22549.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
剛才蘇清文講的小朋友可能吃到會死掉這樣的一個風險我是覺得說千萬不能讓它發生不然真的沒有辦法解決人命的信任接下來就是我們學校衛生法是明定不能使用基改食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
22550.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
22571.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
不過就他們現在的NTE報告就是多次我國策下這邊這方面的規定所以民眾還是會有餘力你會不會到最後會態度軟化或者是你們的心裡面的那把尺到底是不是能夠堅守這方面的一個原則各位報告在有關基改食品的部分的管理在R的裡面我們是沒有退讓所以這個我們還是嚴守我們本來的規範這個不會進校園 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
22575.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
22597.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
請委員放心現在是優先採購國產嘛可是如果是就偏向一些學校他是高度依賴外包的團散那你要怎麼辦去怎麼講他可能沒有告知啊或者說他去觸犯了這方面他沒有他並不知道說這些是基凱食品你要怎麼去防範學校去買到這些東西是 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
22598.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
22620.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
跟委員報告兩點 第一點是我們有一個實燈平台 實燈平台會把所有的食材 食材登錄在場內的我們的平台上供全民檢驗 供我們的專家檢驗第二個是我們有嚴重的罰則 最終可以解除契約以上兩點 目前的以肉食品而言 那麼我們這四年來從實施之後 我們是用一錶牌 是百分之百的用國產豬肉 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
22621.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
22649.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
所以我們偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫是有這方面的一個把資訊公開嗎對對是全國所有學校是謝謝那現在就針對剛才王振旭也有提到我們的機場人力那我想知道我們現在的這些的規劃是什麼因為到最後是會偏到地方政府或者是說一些地方查核的這些量能我是覺得有沒有足夠的預算跟人力去做這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
22650.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
22674.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
會不會有沒有做提早的一個規劃跟委員說明就是邊境的人力就是由我們中央負責那麼由食藥署那現在也向行政院多爭取的員額所以員額已經增加只是呢因為這個工作也相當辛苦啦所以沒有聘滿所以我們要想辦法改善那麼他的一些薪資條件來增加這個人才的羅製 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
22675.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
22704.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
至於在地方稽查後市場查核的部分那麼這個工作是屬於地方所以地方上的因應統籌分配款這個分配地方的裁員也增加了所以我們當然也會來要求在未來我們有一些補助款像這個防疫議題的這個新興計畫裡面我們也編了未來這個關於食安的預算那我們會用這個補助的時候也要求地方政府要相對的補足人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
22704.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
22707.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
人的24小時都不可能,寵物的24小時的窗口,你覺得如果真的會有的話,是不是也要公告給國人知道? |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
22726.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
22738.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
受醫院可以提供24小時服務的受醫院有嗎 人的都很難了 受醫院有嗎目前好像受醫院有24小時 有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
22739.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
22760.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
有有那我們就把它整理出來我是覺得應該給國人知道大家知道說如果真的發生什麼事他他可以就近去處理接下來一個比較他們就是常常會問的問題就是呃現在藥事法是一個法律啊然後然後我會這邊是行政命令他認為說藥商出藥給呃從醫院的話是不是違法的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
22761.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
22781.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
好跟委員說明因為這個使用的這個動物使用這個人用藥品其實是在這個動保法的第四條第二項已經授權所以一樣是法律未接那只是說管理的規定是定在第四條的第三項的授權法規來做管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
22781.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
22804.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
所以是沒有問題還有就是負面表列就是需要現在是這樣是不是會排擠以後的動物專用藥品的研發對 這個委員提到的也是在有些國家也是這樣子就是說如果有動物的專用藥那就要排除用人藥不然就不會有這個動物專用藥的研發出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
22807.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
22835.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
在負面表列也好或者正面表列也好都要注意到這樣的現象好你有留意到齁那前幾年我們有遇到點滴的事件那我有聽到消息說很像在當初在點滴缺乏的時候是請製造動物點滴的先去做人的那這個這個消息是真的嗎沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
22838.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
22839.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
好 謝謝盧憲一 莊委 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
22852.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
22879.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
接下來請岳元之委員 岳元之委員 岳元之委員不在接著我們請王美惠 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在接著我們請林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在接著我們請林倩琦 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在接著我們請賴慧元委員 賴慧元委員 不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
22884.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
22911.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
本日會議詢答全部結束委員賴會員黃婕 徐欣盈所提書面質詢列入記錄坑登公報現在作以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
22930.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
22931.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
再重申一次108年 |