| IVOD_ID |
17338 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17338 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-5-36,15-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-09T08:35:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-09T11:56:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:20:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc5bef6d628ca92912767583e9fc67e887a9d5466ed3f81405bd5fcf0591461c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「總統咨，為最高檢察署檢察總長邢泰釗任期於115年5月7日屆滿，茲依法院組織法第66條第2項規定，提名徐錫祥為最高檢察署檢察總長，咨請同意案」案。
【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:04 - 11:56:00 |
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報告聯席會 出席委員17人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會我們現在開會我們先介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席人員我們現場一大早就在這邊準備了這個不是磨刀霍霍 這看起來有專業又有準備 我們成招之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1621.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1634.914 |
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來 介紹我們應邀的列席人員今天就我們法務部政務次長黃某信次長歡迎 還有最高檢察署檢察總長被提名人徐錫祥次長OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1641.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1661.175 |
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本次議程討論的四項排定就審查總統之為最高檢察署檢察總長形態照任期在115年5月7號就要屆滿依照法院組織法第66條第二項的規定提名徐徐祥為最高檢察署檢察總長知情的同意案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1663.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1673.611 |
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本案是我們立法院第十一屆第五會期第四次會議決定交付內政司法法制內政就兩個委員會來審查還有聯席會議於四月八號 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1680.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1702.906 |
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舉辦公聽會 就昨天已經舉辦公聽會也完成本院各黨團隊被提名人資格及適任性所提出的書面問題 只請總統轉至被提名人經總統府秘書長韓富被提名人提出的相關資料也已經在4月7號檢送各黨團在案我們現在請被提名人徐徐翔先生報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1711.929 |
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1714.025 |
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主席 各位委員 女士 先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1715.423 |
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1744.375 |
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桂園會今天就總統知請大院同意最高檢察署檢察總長被提名人一案進行審查那個人奉邀前來列席並被質詢被感榮幸這一次能夠被總統提名為檢察總長既是無上的榮幸同時也感到責任重大國人對於檢察體系上有許多批評而且要求改革的聲音那檢察體系內部也面臨著諸多的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1745.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1769.324 |
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這些衝擊都在考驗著領導者的智慧跟決心如有幸獲得大院同意 未來擔任此一新職一定孜孜固固 建籍履籍 絕不辜負人民因應的期盼民眾對於檢察總長的期待不僅僅是對一個職位的要求而更是對於國家司法正義最後一道防線的寄託 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1770.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1784.671 |
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那作為指導監督各級檢察官的檢察總長應保持政治的中立性具備深厚的法治素養以及捍衛人權的無畏勇氣那一個好的檢察官除了要有豐富的辦案經驗外精準科學辦案 |
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1787.285 |
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1812.366 |
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處事的客觀公正 不偏不倚本則公義及悲天憫人的信念嚴守程序正義 守護人權 實不愧職守為守護檢察官的辦案空間個人日後將秉持以下的工作理念及堅守的原則推動各項檢察工作第一 維護檢察官的獨立性跟客觀中立檢察中長為檢察體系的領導者必須嚴守客觀中立 |
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1816.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1839.148 |
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不為利誘 也不為任何干涉 全力捍衛檢察官執行植物獨立抄欄的立場檢察總長不接受關說 也不關說案件讓檢察官完全發揮打擊犯罪的量能 而無後顧之憂第二 遵守法律程序 確保人權保障在無罪推定原則下 嚴格要求檢察官遵守正當的法律程序 |
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1839.628 |
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1853.299 |
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及偵查不公開原則只有嚴守程序正義才能不越陷侵害人權也才能獲得人民的信賴跟尊重當然也要嚴守偵查不公開原則以避免媒體或網路不當的報導倘若未審先判會侵害當事人的隱私跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1859.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1884.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
被告獲得公平審判的權利那第三 法律兼容不背離人民的感情檢察官是國家法律的守護者擔負的社會安定跟國家安全的責任那嚴正執法本是職責所在維救犯罪的動機、目的、手段、社會危害性也必須要強加斟酌才能夠做出妥適的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1885.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1906.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那不會背離人民的感情使人民對司法喪失信心而對於檢察官人文思維及同理心的保持將透過訓練及各級首長主管的潛移默化予以強化關於未來的工作目標個人自詡要做到理想的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1907.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1929.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
檢察總長的幾項核心思維跟未來工作的目標說明如下一 堅守政治中立 帶領檢察官做捍衛司法的長程第二 引領司法朝向公正的穩定性發展 贏得人民的信賴第三 優化與升級檢察體制 因應新時代挑戰第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1929.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1956.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
捍衛人權跟平反冤錯第五保護被害人跟弱勢者的權益第六妥適運用檢查議題發揮團隊辦案的效能至於未來偵查業務的重點部分我也將設定幾個未來偵查業務的重點加強督導各級檢查機關與檢察官第一整合查查會選量能確保選舉公平公正第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1958.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1977.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
經濟貪圖案件的偵辦第三提升國家安全案件偵辦效能第四積極打擊妨礙綠能弊案第五有效的追溯侵害營業秘密犯罪第六持續追擊電信詐欺犯罪強化罪章返還第八公共責任跟透明度 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1979.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1992.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
最後結語檢察總長因是具備剛正不阿的法治脊樑與悲天憫人的正義使者讓人民相信司法不再是威權的武器而是公理的最後堡壘這就是對檢察總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1996.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2020.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
最輝煌的勳章正如德國二戰很著名的黑身幫檢察總長Friedrich Bauer所說的我想成為一個真正服務於法律正義人性和平的法律人而不是只說些空話如果有機會擔任檢察總長我會全心全力追求法律正義關照人性跟和平的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2021.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2048.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
腳踏實地帶領檢查體系 不負國家與人民的託付詳細的內容請參照我們的口頭報告內容 謝謝好 謝謝 被提名人被提名人報告完畢 相關書面內容列入公報我們現在來進行詢答因為今天是聯席會 發言的人數會比較多一共有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2050.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2068.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
快30位了 27位 伊利本聯席會委員詢答時間為6分鐘 非聯席會委員詢答時間為3分鐘那我均不再延長了 上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位吳宗憲委員來做發言謝謝主席 我們請那個被提名人請被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2082.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2112.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 徐貝提名人您好我想這個我們自己我們你我都是從基層檢察官出來的所以我們很清楚一個檢察首長我們要的其實是一個敢守誠意正義敢扛政治責任還有替基層扛住整個制度底線的這個檢察首長那我先請教一個問題啦就今年的3月26號總統太院長他說任何質疑任何質疑執政黨可以操控司法人沒有資格成為執政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2113.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2130.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
但是賴總統去年他在民進黨中常會他又說大家都可以在個案審理中檢視司法審理的規範那一個說人民可以檢視 一個又說沒有資格我想請教您 人民到底可不可以質疑司法有沒有受到政治影響我想委員你也當過檢察官 委員就直接回答人民可不可以質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2141.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2166.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
人民要相信司法我們的所有的檢察官或者是法官我們依法來做偵查審判我們心裡有一把刺人民可不可以質疑你還是沒有回答這個問題人民要做怎樣的想法我沒有辦法去約束我也沒辦法被評斷說他是對還是錯但是我想思想是自由的所以他要怎麼想我們不能用任何規範去限制他好那不然這樣好了那我換個問題問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2167.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2190.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
您認為行政院院長他說質疑任何質疑執政黨可以操控司法人都沒有資格成為執政黨請問您認同這句話嗎這句話應該有它深層的一點含義就是說如果一個執政黨是認為司法是不公的那他就不能成為執政黨我想這樣的解讀應該是比較精確的不是欸不是欸應該是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2193.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2220.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
民進黨在野的時候也經常質疑司法那難道他就不適合成為執政黨嗎我認為這是一個因為您剛剛的報告其實一直有講到司法獨立不受政治影響嘛您的書面報告也有但在這第一個問題裡面你就沒有給我答案了那我怎麼能夠相信說你將來在擔任檢察總長的時候你有那個勇氣感跟現在執政黨對抗不是 這不是對抗這是堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2222.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2233.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對抗跟堅持是不一樣的不是啦 這不是文字遊戲啦沒有文字遊戲對抗跟堅持今天如果執政黨他惡搞那他要政治力介入司法的時候你有沒有勇氣跟他對抗嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2233.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2253.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
身為一個檢察官就好不要到總長任何一個非法的干涉我們一定要有自己就有勇敢的去捍衛這樣繞來繞去我覺得還是沒有高拖你任務官的包袱因為我知道您是正次也做過這個國安局的副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2254.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2282.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那當然這就是外界給您的質疑啦那我今天第一個問題其實很簡單就是說當院長說出這個我們認為不妥的話為什麼司法不能夠質疑那只要有人質疑的話那就不適合擔任執政黨那這個話其實不對啊因為民進黨在野的時候常在質疑甚至他的黨綱裡面的行動綱領也有要求要司法獨立那不是也一種質疑嗎那難道就不適合嗎我剛才特別強調就是說思想是沒有辦法限制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2282.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2308.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我想這個要質疑沒有人有辦法限制好那你贊不贊成卓榮泰院長的這一句話您贊不贊成委員單單的一句話叫我是贊不贊成我只能說不能說司法不公好那我知道我們不可以質疑司法不公嘛那您這樣講我也無話可說不是跟你講一件事啦現在司法對人民對司法信任度 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2309.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2330.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不高 那是我們大家都要檢討的事情如果都認為說司法我們檢察官做 你人民不可以質疑或執政在野黨也不可以質疑 那就不對啦任何東西應該都可以質疑吧應該是說 增審的一些作為我們可以來檢討 它妥不妥適但是整體來講 我想司法人員委員你也當過司法人員我們心中的那一把指 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2331.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2344.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
是需要被肯定我還是講的是人民對不然這樣好了因為時間的關係我直接給你跳到一個問題來我問一下這次北檢清潔監察院的那個案子當然我先講一個北檢清潔監察院的那個用公務車那個案子我覺得裡面問題非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2351.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2369.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
同時間那段時間曾經有個清潔隊員他曾經送一個老婦人一個幾十塊的電鍋然後他被起訴是貪污罪條例第六條那五年以上的重罪那我今天的問題是在於說北檢的檢察官牽結的理由是說這個油錢他事後有付了 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2369.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2388.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那請問一下那車輛的消耗或者是司機的油煎產業雇佣這個都不用管嗎那我去搭計程車坐了10公里可不可以說我就付你一公升油錢就好那其他費用我都不出好那這個只是我就事實面的論述但是我也要請教你一個問題啦我們這個是符合牽結的理由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2389.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2410.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們簽結有簽結的要件耶 這可以直接簽結嗎我們那個高檢署還有各地檢署辦理他這案件注意事項第三點裡面啊 得報請簽結的理由只有這些啊 這六點啊那請問一下監察院那個案子人事實地物都是明確而且濫用公務車這個事實也明確憑什麼簽結 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2414.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2442.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我以前接過很多案子亂告我以前辦速探也接過很多亂告的案子但那個一眼就知道這胡扯嘛什麼什麼我接過某某人把他家的電梯裡面塗滿什麼排泄物然後讓他沒辦法搭電梯下去這個東西一看就知道有問題但是這一次的監察院的這個簽結我覺得莫名其妙來請問一下被提名的你有什麼看法完全不符合定型注意事項裡面的各項規定而且人事實地物都是明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2444.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2466.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
請問你有什麼看法這個案子的話應該是沒有人告訴告發應該是明確定的不是我問東寧又答西人我說他不符合陰性注意事項的簽結規定因為人事實地物每一個都清楚這件事情給我一個感觸就是說原來只要大官犯案 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2467.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2490.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
找盡理由幫他牽結小小的清潔隊員的一個小事三十幾塊的東西用貪污之類條例來處理如果事實面我們不論述我們尊重檢察官的認定的話但至少程序面他不符合牽結的規定啊牽結要點第三點的六款請問他符合哪一款好 請問您對這個有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2493.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2520.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們兩個當過檢察官都知道說其實他有一個地方是比較可以有一點權宜有時候我們會選擇用簽結有時候我們會做一個不起訴處分書我個人認為如果能夠有一個不起訴處分書會比較好這對於被調查的人也給他一個確定的結果我個人感覺這樣是比較好的所以至少在本案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2521.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2537.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
是不是其實您也是比較支持說假官應該用不起訴處分的方式來處理可以檢討這個可能性因為是這樣子對被調查的人也比較公平那我這邊也跟那個被提名人報告這件事情我個人完全不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2539.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2568.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
北檢的這個論述這個用牽結的方式北檢怎麼認定這是事實的認定我們基本上都予以尊重你說他有付油錢其他的耗損他都不當一回事這個檢察官這麼認定這麼奇怪我們就算了這是事實面我尊重他但是程序面他就不符合印行注意事項的牽結規定而且在人事實地物都明確的情況下還敢用牽結這種我以前我當蘇貪檢察官當11年我不敢這麼做在這邊跟您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2569.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2583.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來我們請最有戰力充滿準備的陳昭之委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2587.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2590.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
請問我們台灣民眾黨團提出的被提名人的問卷調查表請問是否都是您親自回答上面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2605.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2621.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
都是您親自回答那問卷上有一題是面對權貴屢屢透過高官施壓檢查系統檢查體系應該如何配合立法院的修法以避免司法公正遭政治力不當的介入請問您還記得您開頭是怎麼回答嗎是我記得 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2623.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2640.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
您在開頭說這個資料上有在過去會看到的司法關說或上級施壓已經看不太到了那我想先請教這個被提名人您所謂的上級施壓具體內容是什麼是怎麼樣的施壓法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2644.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2663.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好啦我講我個人的實際案例啦我想以前那很早很早真的很早以前至少二十幾年前的麻煩您就是什麼樣的施壓法可能也不會非常明確的告訴你你要怎麼做而是會暗示你說這個案子呢是不是再多聽聽被告的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2664.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2669.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
類似像這樣子的但是現在幾乎沒有發生過這種事情而且大院通過的刑罰172條之三已經有所謂的不當關說罪雖然您說現在已經不太看到這樣的上級施壓但是這個說法我還是大大 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2685.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2708.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
打一個很大的問號您同時也認為在制度上還是仍要有一套機制避免司法到政治力不當介入這個我給予肯定但是無論是社會各界或檢察官的內部其實都認為政治力的幽魂是持續在檢查體系中擺盪的請問被提名人檢察官內部的類似的聲音你曾經知悉或聽聞過嗎你有感受到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2711.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2720.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
最近沒有聽過沒有真的都沒有嗎是沒有為什麼我會說政治力的幽魂是持續在檢查體系當中擺盪呢我先請教貝提敏一個問題檢察官的人事升遷日常考評職涯發展由誰控制由誰決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2728.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2741.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們現在的人是我們有一個檢審會委員應該知道我們的檢審會的組成是民選的委員多於我們官方指定的委員那依照這個檢察官職務評定辦法檢察官的日常考評是掌握在檢察長的手上那檢察長是誰派的那部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2752.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2769.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
檢審會通過 也是官派嘛 不不不委員我這個要補充一下檢審委員 我們民選的檢審委員提出的名單 那個名單已經框住了所以說今天這個不是單純部長一個任命 而是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2770.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2780.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
而是在提名的因為我的時間有限今天這個我們的召委特別嚴格您真是認為沒有人可以去控制檢審會嗎?檢審會有17個成員都是檢察官組成這個OK法務部長派4位那檢察總長是當然委員如果您當選你還可以另外再派3位就是說法務部長加上檢察總長方的人大概就有8位那剩下的9位雖然好像是全體的檢察官票選 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2797.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2816.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那似乎可以制衡官派的人事意見事實上的實踐不是這麼一回事我以主任檢察官的遴選為例地檢署可以提出排名單法務部長還可以自己放入想要的人選一起交由檢審會依照法務部檢察官人士審議委員會的審議規則來審議這個部份部長都沒有放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2823.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2839.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
檢審會會從名單提出一份當年的職缺1.5倍的主任檢察官的人選交給法務部長圈選整個程序當中檢審會的組成圈選的決定法務部長是一個非常重要非常關鍵其實他就是決定者 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2840.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2865.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
可是決定的範圍也只在檢審委員提出來的名單裡面我知道我知道法務部長是誰派的行政院派行政院長派的行政院長是誰派的總統派的也就是說掌握行政權的執政黨透過行政權掌握檢察官的人士是足以控制檢察官成為政治辦案的工具喔如果你想要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2866.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2895.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
檢察官把政治力的幽魂從檢察體系驅除驅離的話就必須要一個完全獨立的檢察官人事審議制度好 請問這個被提名人你知道美國的州檢察官是怎麼出現的嗎是怎麼產生的嗎 您知道嗎選舉 選舉您知道嗎好 這是人民選舉的人民選舉的 任期兩年到八年不等好 我再請教被提名人您認為檢察體系當中是否存在揣摩上意的檢察官 請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2900.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2905.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
有沒有存在這樣的人 揣摩上億的檢察官有或沒有是我不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2906.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2919.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
您不清楚當檢察官的人事考的升遷都掌握在行政權的長官這邊必然是存在揣摩上意的檢察官這是人性我覺得揣摩上意的檢察官就不配當檢察官地檢署檢人性什麼叫人性檢察官要地檢署檢察官要辦一堆案子每個月要新收偵查案大概超過百件但身上主任檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2931.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2943.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
或當上這個高檢署的檢察官 案件量會大減那麼檢察官會不會想要往上爬當然會啊但是 當制度沒有辦法克服人性就是為了讓 但是你又會讓長官看到讓長官滿意 揣摩上意的檢安就自然 就油然產生啊同樣的 上級的質押也就會存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2952.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2960.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
只是說上級的施壓可能不是單純的你剛剛提到的施以壓力而是再加上升遷的利誘高檢署陳孔達主任檢察官在2023年曾公開發文我愛凱薩我更愛羅馬堅持捍衛司法獨立的核心價值他批評當時的法務部對全台檢查首長大調動仇庸心腹打壓異己 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2977.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3000.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
您在回答給我們黨團的問卷當中有說檢查人事調動是否具備公信力應該由社會大眾還有檢查同仁來共同來評價你也說人事遷調不應該也不能成為酬庸但我必須要說社會大眾身為檢察官以及身為檢察官的陳宏達主任檢察官都已經給出這樣的評價了就是酬庸心腹請問被提名人您身為檢察這個檢審會的當然委員你還可以指派三名委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3005.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3010.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
您會做出如何跟現任的檢察總長這個刑態遭總長不一樣的處理方式還是你是行規徐隨呢你如何讓人事這個簽調不成為酬庸呢你有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3017.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3045.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們會嚴格審查每一個入選的候選人如果是有像委員所講的這些我們一定把它剔除掉當您的長官現任檢察總統行太招可以讓辦柯文哲案有功的即便是違法實質的江振裕容身二審檢察官林靜妍檢察官不證問訊的事實容身主任檢察官嚴仲慶身主任檢察官唐仲慶身主任檢察官請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3046.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3063.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
你如何評價這樣的升官發達請你評論我想我跟你有不同的看法我們這些檢察官一直以來長期以來超過十幾年以來都是非常認真守法非常認真優秀的檢察官不會因為不是因為一個個案他就生了什麼東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3064.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3080.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你認為他們表現非常優秀有嚴守你剛剛的口頭報告裡面的完美境界而且這一個案子到底檢察官是不是優秀正直社會自然有公辦你應該看過任何民調為什麼台灣人民對司法的信任度民調永遠只有30到40分 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3082.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3097.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他是死當欸離及格非常遙遠欸檢察官辦案有50%就是絕對會對我們有不好的印象因為他可能是被告可能是不起訴署份的告訴人他本來就有一半的人他不贊同我們所以用民調來評價檢察官這是不公平的但是我還是要講一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3101.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3115.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
如果人民對司法的信心信任度是離及格非常遙遠而且是死蕩的話台灣今天要談民主是非常奢侈的台灣大概沒有資格去談這個司法這也是我們努力的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3118.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3132.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭之委員你講一下 我都不敢打斷你看說對你多好得那你看這個被提名人也不卑不亢啊不錯啦 把他捧上來接下來是我們審發會委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3147.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3172.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
主席我們先請這個被提名人請被提名人委員好我們這個 孫檢察官好了這個我想我首先在這邊表達我們像剛才這樣子在質詢裡面把說審理個案審理柯文哲案的這個檢察官的聲簽拿出來點名 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3174.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3185.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
點名然後抹黑說他是因為這個偵辦柯文哲案這種針對個案然後把檢察官拿出來點名然後再批評他的聲簽我認為這種行為齁就跟那個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3187.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3209.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
台中地院在走廊去打辯護律師的巴掌是一樣的行為啊你這個案檢察官你就扮演這個角色然後你檢察官因為他辦了你柯文哲案你出來在庭外你就打他巴掌用在立法院的質詢台上被打人家巴掌這我個人認為是非常不妥當在這裡我是表達非常非常的遺憾這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3211.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3222.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
接下來這個我要請問我們被提名人這個昨天我們這個本委員會有召開一個有關這個這個我們這一次的這個檢查總長的這個人事案的一個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3223.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3243.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那這個我昨天也非常詳細的從頭到尾,詳細的聽了所有我們這出席的七位學者跟這個食物界人士他們昨天的這個發言我看這昨天大多數都是針對這個制度面角色跟這個一些專業的這個相關的議題來討論檢察總長他在這些議題裡面扮演的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3250.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3268.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
但是其中有一位 大部分都對我們被提名人是相當肯定的大概只有兩位有提出對於我們今天被提名人的一些質疑其中有一位就是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3270.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3299.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個高檢署的主任檢察官齁這個有針對你提出了蠻具體的幾個質疑而且基本上我看他的質疑是認為說你的這個事任性有問題啦齁那這部分我首先我先就程序上面來請教一下我們主席啦齁主席這個我們昨天的這個公聽會的這個與會代表是是怎麼邀請的是請這個還是請市長說明一下所以我們這個最我們昨天這個高檢署的主任檢察官是代表我們法務部出席的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3300.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3314.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個我說明一下 這個跟省委報告 這個是各黨團來推薦什麼 各黨團是各黨團推薦 對 各黨團推薦所以昨天那個不是法務部的代表那昨天那個是那個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3317.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3343.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
陳宏達主任檢察官陳宏達主任檢察官非常優秀啦我想說法務部派出的代表這個我等一下查完再詳細正確的資料再跟陳委員做報告那這個我就想說怎麼法務部派出的代表結果對我們這個跟陳委員報告那個陳宏達主任檢察官是中國國民黨推薦的是國民黨推薦的我想說是法務部推薦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3345.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3370.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
的代表在對我們這個人選有這麼大的質疑那就是大問題了如果是國民黨推薦的代表那我們就大概可以理解雖然說我們這個從他這個主任檢察官我個人也是非常尊敬他的操作而且他甚至應該是這一次也是檢察總長的人選之一所以我個人是對他個人沒有完全沒有任何批評我只是要理解說這昨天的公聽會的到底是怎麼樣產生的這些人選是國民黨推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3373.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3394.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
但是我們就是針對是誰提出的不重要了但是昨天我們陳主任檢察官他提出了四個大的質疑我覺得這部分因為昨天會後好像有記者去採訪我們我們這個徐主任檢察官好像有去採訪你了但是你昨天你說你不回應因為你這回應今天又要來回應好像你一句我一句你的說法變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3395.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3413.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你一句我一句所以今天我想這個就是應該要正式讓你回應的有關於我們昨天在公聽會裡面這個主任檢察官所提出的我幫他整理了一下大概就是四個質疑第一個就是說你在行政履歷以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3415.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3437.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
認為你是不是有這個可以被檢驗的辦案貢獻是足以支撐這個檢查總長職務的核心戰機他提到核心戰機這個這部分這是第一個問題第二個問題是你擔任過政務次長這剛好吳宗憲委員有提說你政務次長跟這個的背景跟這個檢查高位的這個分際這兩個職務是不是有衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3441.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3467.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
第三個是你承認國安副局長的歷練到底是加分還是減分第四個問題是說你的這個支持基礎不足因為這次檢察官協會跟建青減改這些專業團體這次沒有投票沒有投票所以他認為你這個支持基礎不足是不是這個一點點我覺得你今天這個機會時間很短我希望你針對這個部分一個一個回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3468.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3480.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
第一個所以你這個有沒有可供檢驗的核心戰績這部分請說明一下好那我先跟委員報告一下當時黨團提出來的問題是你擔任檢察官辦過哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3486.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3511.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
重大的案件列出10點那我就很直覺的反應我從82年開始去算我就挑了10件各位委員請我去看這些案子因為我有篇幅的問題我沒有很詳細的寫其實這在當時82年83年84年已經是算是在我們那裡算是蠻重大的案子包括酒盡的超代案包括很多大安溪整個大安溪的砂石盜採案 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3512.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3528.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那些案子都非常非常的大所以當然如果跟北檢的規模比較或許人家會認為我們不夠可是如果說今天要把我擔任檢察長主任檢察官的領導指揮的案子也算進來的話我擔任過新北的檢察長我們辦過的軍備局的這個張將軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3534.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3548.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這一個跟廠商中共所取的四千多萬的一個匯款案那我在彰化的時候是最有名的就是綠能的案子我們辦過普風的這個食品物理案 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3549.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3567.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
同開的一個工業污泥案我們還要求補豐跟相關的廠商必須把農地恢復原狀這為國家也省了十幾億還有竹東我們還辦了一個竹東六天辦了一千個人次的一個大型的會選案 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3568.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3596.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這些在在都考驗了我們的一個領導的能力所以這些都是矚目暗刺只是說你沒有把它寫在自傳裡面沒有沒有我只是寫我當小檢察官時候的所以陳主任陳主任我當然非常的敬重他是拿現在這個把檢察長的這一塊也算領導同意的話那當然就會不一樣那我寫的是我個人偵辦案件個人主政的案子這是第一個問題大概就這樣回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3597.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3604.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
他特別提到說你沒有擔任過台北地檢署跟二審檢查機關這個最能夠展現檢查首長的核心戰場 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3613.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3629.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
他說你沒有站過核心戰場我當過新北的檢察長我的規模不會低於台北地檢署所以我當時來的時候一年期間剛好是疫情最嚴重的時候這個我認為這個就有點主觀了啦所以當然我們型態招檢察長他擔任過這兩個職務台北地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3636.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3651.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
二層這個檢查機關的職務但是他前一任江惠民他也沒有擔任過他也沒有擔任過這個所謂核心戰場他也沒有擔任過所以我認為說這個質疑就有點主觀了接下來他說政務次長跟這個最高檢的分際 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3653.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3678.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這根本以我的理解我們現任的這個型態招檢察長好像也擔任過政務次長他是不是有擔任過政務次長所以我想這個就會變成有點針對個人了啦我是覺得說這過去你不是說第一個說當次長再來當檢察長你是第一個那大家當然會質疑你這個問題但是事實上你並過去這樣子的例子包括現任的檢察長也都是擔任過政務次長所以我是覺得說這個應該不是問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3681.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3709.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那這個有關這個你擔任國安局副局長這個部分這部分就好像我這個要幫國安局講一些話國安局從1955年就成立他是在等於是保護國家的安全以及我們元首的安全這是沒有顏色的任何人執政他就會要保護他要保護這個國家安全所以他是完全是在犧牲奉獻的無名英雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3709.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3736.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不只這樣子啦事實上以我所知啊昨天公聽會大家所關注的這個大概八大議題裡面有關詐欺案件其實詐欺案件現在已經是列為國安單位的重要的業務之一了所以你曾經在國安單位對於現在大家重視的這個詐欺案件它的辦理它當然也有一個重要的這個它當然是一個重要的加分啊包括現在我們大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3737.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3755.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
眾所矚目不分黨派許許多多的這個對岸的滲透的這些國家安全案件的司法審理這個你擔任國安局這個當然是加分而且我個人認為甚至是我們現在在偵辦案件也必須跟他們能夠協調那最後一個質疑很抱歉時間超過但我最後一個質疑我覺得你也還是要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3757.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3767.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
他說有關檢察官協會漸進減改專業團體的支持基礎不足我所知道的他們過去都有辦理投票這次沒有辦理 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3769.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3795.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這個是因為這個我不能去有啦我幫你說啦因為這是他們決定的他們有發表理由啦他們理由是認為齁這個目前的這個制度應該要改革啦他們認為說在制度改革之前齁他們再繼續進行這樣的票選是沒有意義的所以他不是針對他完全沒有針對任何的人選等等的問題啦齁他們這次之所以沒有進行票選是因為他們認為這個制度必須要改革所以他們這次沒有進行票選 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3796.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3813.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以我個人認為說這也不應該成為理由不過這個零零總總在媒體上面呈現出來聽起來好像雜音就變得很多了好像說有這個理由有那個理由但是其實我們今天這樣子經過透過今天這樣子整理其實他大概就是質疑的人大概就質疑了就這幾點 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3814.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3833.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
而這幾點有很多也不是你個人是過去歷任檢察長他本來更重要的我們檢察總長的這個職務在我們目前的法令上面其實他的角色職權是相當隱晦的其實他的在法制上面的這個規定其實很少甚至你連檢察總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3835.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3846.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
你要做什麼樣的職務什麼樣職權都沒有我們目前只有憲法就只有這個司法人員人事條例裡面有第16條有規定的最高檢查總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3848.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3866.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
對那個司法人員人事條例16條再來就是法院組織法法官法也有法官法指揮監督他對於對於這個我們目前檢查總長他的職權職務要求其實我們目前的法令的規定是很隱晦的但是簡單講大家其實從昨天的公聽會我們聽起來大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3868.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3879.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
對檢察總長期許都差不多但是最重要的是說面對像這樣子很多的也不是很多面對這些質疑我覺得你一點一點都必須要說明清楚有很多我個人認為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3881.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3905.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
應該不是你個人的問題這應該是歷任這個目前這個整個制度檢查狀況制度設計上面就要不然你在法令上面就排除說當擔任過次長的不能當這個主任檢察官如果沒有你目前在我看你是我不敢像那個像其實法界也學術界有人說你是五星級的人選那我不敢在這裡說說你是五星級人選但是我認為你是 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3906.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3911.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
以這個扶持資格條件來看,我認為是相當符合資格的人選謝謝委員,謝謝好,謝謝省發會委員接下來請張志倫委員來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3935.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3961.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家好有請徐錫祥 主任檢察官提名人好 請配提名人最高組檢察官提名人委員早提名人早那今天是司法跟內政委員會聯席來針對提名人您來去做一個請教是 哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3962.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3983.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那我想說今天這個檢查總長的位置非常的重要其實大家都希望未來您有機會擔任檢查總長的以後一定要保持獨立性那可是今天本席還是要在這邊來請教您一些問題那也希望說您有機會來去做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3984.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4009.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那因為檢察總長他是管理全國檢查體系非常重要的一個位置那其實也是要保持非常大的獨立性不能被政治所凌駕跟綁架那您過去的經歷其實是長期在檢查體系那不過剛剛很多委員跟福田公聽會也特別提到您過去擔任過法務部次長國安局的副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4010.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4027.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那這個當然對於一般很多民眾會認為這是高度政治性的職務那當然在昨天的這個公聽會那也要特別我們有一位這個台高檢的主任檢察官陳鴻達也在公聽會指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4030.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4047.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個認為您的核心定念不足啊那擔任政務官有濃厚的政治性是不是可以把擔任我們現在的職位的未來的職位的時候有沒有辦法斬斷這個過去的政黨跟人脈關係啊那只對法律跟證據負責請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4050.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4077.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝委員垂詢我想我想一個人是不是會被政治控制進而影響到整個檢查系統的偵辦的態度絕對不是說你當過什麼官而在於你的心態你今天如果說你的心態是正常你維護的我們檢察官的獨立的獨立性跟中立性的話不管你是什麼職務你自然就會畫一條線這條線就是不能跨過的紅線那我我擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4078.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4096.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那個國安局副局長以及政務次長委員如果有興趣可以去檢視我所有做過的事情沒有一項是跟政治是有關係的我都是為了國家安全以及政務的話法務部的政務推動包括刑法修正打砸司法以及我們的我們的我們的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4097.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4114.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
轉弦 轉弦會議還有我們的評鑑 洗房辦的評鑑以及廉政署這邊的透明組織的評鑑哪一項不是跟我們人民的權利息息相關沒有一項是所謂的政治性我想這個都可以去檢視我走過的任何一個足跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4115.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4133.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以我覺得不是你當過什麼職務而是你的所作所為是不是符合我們國家的利益那國安局這個就是保護我們國家的安全防止滲透 防止別人對我們的不法以及特警的部門還要維護首長的安全這個沒有一項是政治的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4134.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4162.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
次長剛才我也已經講得很清楚所以可以去檢視我做過的事情而不是單就這個職位就去評斷說他是政治性我想這是對職位不公平對我也是不公平的好 謝謝您的回應那當然他有特別昨天的這個公聽會他也說這個您沒有擔任過台北地檢署的檢察長跟二審的檢察長那相較過去三任檢察總長的歷練仍然不足那您有什麼回應嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4163.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4176.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那我想根據司法人員人事條例第16條的規定裡面所列的我是符合第三款的規定那這個是無庸置疑那裡面有提到一個還要具備領導的才能 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4177.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4204.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我雖然沒有當過北檢檢察長這也不是我刻意或怎樣而是我的檢察官的生涯裡面長官任賦予我們的任務我們是一步一步的走誰也不能安排下一步那我當過新北的檢察長我去的時候剛好就是疫情最嚴重的時候一年來我率領大家透過這個疫情我還是能夠偵辦刑事案件很有名的雙核的雙核醫院的殺富士案也是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4205.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4233.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我費盡了很多心思然後去協調很多單位才把這個案子給辦好還有我們辦的那個國備局的這個收取匯款案以及我之前在彰化的綠能案件有很多很多的案子是因為當時題目設定是我當檢察官的時候辦的案子而不是我領導指揮的案子我參與的這些案子我也可以把它寫進去有人說我比較老實啦就寫那個以前那個最年輕的時候辦的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4234.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4253.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那25年前的案子它的性質就是這樣哪知道說25年後我們會變成這麼龐大的一個犯罪組織我們面對的跟以前是完全是不可同日而語所以你要以指揮監督這種大型案子我的經驗是很多的並不是沒有只是我沒有把它寫進去而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4254.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4276.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我方不方便再請教那我請教賴總統有沒有特別提說他提名你的原因以及未來您的這個當任檢察長的辦案的重點是不是可以請您說明一下我跟委員這個誠實的講沒有我還沒見過總統沒有任何的提示但是不用提示 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4279.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4298.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
就是說你要爭取這個同意權提名跟同意權我該做什麼事情我很清楚那條線也很清楚我要率領的全體檢察官要能夠遵照法律的規定要公平的來偵辦任何案子沒有派系黨派之分這個是非常明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4299.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4327.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那未來您的辦案重點可不可以簡單說明一下辦案重點對你來講是比較重要的比如說等一下可能我會請教你的就是有關於詐騙詐欺最近氾濫你有沒有什麼是你的辦案重點我們的重點就是今年的大選這是大選還有貪圖案件詐欺也在委員剛才問的詐欺也在還有國安案件還有我們的營業秘密這都是我們我們還有一個那個掃黑這都是我們最高檢非常核心的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4328.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4358.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好那針對詐騙你有沒有什麼可以未來可以讓詐騙案件可以降低的一些方式報告委員詐騙案件已經降了超過百分之二十五了我是說還有沒有降低的方式不是現在降低多少這個決策是多方向的我想委員非常有經驗第一個就是要跨機關還有跨公司協力目前台高檢在做的這個預警系統就非常有效他已經成功攔阻十一億的彰款的匯出我想這個是我們檢察官往前跨一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4358.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4384.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
在可疑的賬戶的時候我們就凍結然後開始追往上追這就是公司協力跨機關的合作這是非常非常重要那再來最重要的是我們要扣住這些賬戶然後來落實返還我想民眾最關心的點在這裡我們就是如何去把這些賬款全部扣住將來返還最後最重要就是要宣導提名來謝謝實際的關係請教您最後一個問題因為當然最近有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4389.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4416.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
問題就是我們這個基層的檢察員的過勞的問題也有基層檢察員檢察官集體離職的等等相關的問題那當然就像你講的當然我們在偵辦案件的時候很積極然後把這個詐騙的金額下降那當然檢察官的也會非常相對非常辛苦那你對於基層檢察官過勞集體離職你待在檢察總長有沒有如果未來待在檢察總長你有沒有一些方式可以給他比如說AI偵辦或什麼樣的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4417.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4446.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
謝謝委員的關心我真的是替檢察官感謝委員我想現在最重要的就是減輕檢察官的負擔那我在當次長的時候包括現在部裡面一直在推像我們的檢察官助理我們已經非常成功的到院裡面同意我們再來的兩年我們會增加244個那當然這也是大院的一個支持檢察官助理對檢察官來講非常的重要可以有效的緩解他們的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4447.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4465.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
再來剛才委員提到了AI對AI不是只有幫我們寫書類我們現在在進行的是什麼是AI輔助偵查系統希望有一天我們AI就是我們一個檢查事務官可以提供給我們很多偵查作為的協助這都是我們努力的目標還有我們書類簡化我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4468.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4486.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這個立案審查的制度在議的一個簡化這個有很多很多我們部裡面一直在推目標就是要減輕檢察官的工作負擔這是我們在努力的我想這個是一定要做的最刻不容緩的工作好 謝謝我們的問題到這裡謝謝您的回應 謝謝好 謝謝張志榮委員接下來我們請翁曉琳委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4502.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4525.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請貝提尼人請貝提尼人委員好是貝提尼人許檢察官您好那麼今天這場同意權的審查我想這不是只是在審查一個人您個人本身而是在審查整個台灣的檢查體系我們究竟是要停留在過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4527.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4542.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
守舊的這種威權移序還是說我們要邁向真正的法治國家那我必須在這裡坦白的說我發現現在的檢查制度已經不是零星的個別問題而是它可能是涉及到一個整體系統性的失靈所以接下來我的問題可能會環繞在整個檢查權制度的問題然後也要就教您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4548.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4552.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我們知道其實現在台灣的檢查制度呢主要是採的是這個單偵查主體制度所以檢察官他同時握有偵查權還有起訴權甚至他可能會實質的影響到審判的這樣的能力那麼這個在比較法上面其實可以說是相對來說比較老舊的一個過度集權的設計因此可能會發生濫權的機率極高 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4572.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4586.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那麼以韓國為例我們知道在這個他們從2022年一直到最近2026年的3月份他們基本上對於整個檢查權的制度進行大幅度的修改那麼甚至已經廢除了檢察官的調查權的制度規定終結了韓國78年來的這種偵查起訴一把抓的歷史明確走向偵查與起訴分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4596.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4623.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
限縮檢查權限以及強化外部監督的這個方向但是呢台灣我們看到我們的檢查改革制度幾乎是原地踏步都沒有任何的進展所以我在這裡想請教被提名人您是否認同目前台灣檢查制度的這種一手偵查一手起訴的制度其實已經導致了權力的過度集中我們是不是未來可能可以參考像是日本韓國等等國家納入司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4626.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4635.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
警察為偵查主體檢察官就回歸到起訴的專業還是您個人認為其實現在制度是毫無問題請您回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4638.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4665.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
謝謝委員我目前認為我們檢察官為偵查主題沒有問題然後但是因為工作量負荷很重所以我們現在是在檢討的是有哪些案子可以免於解送可以在警察這一端就在報告檢察官同意之後可以在當地就做處理這樣可以免除警察的移送檢察官的一個夜間的訊問這是可以改良 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4665.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4667.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是韓國的這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4668.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4691.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們再觀察因為真的嗎委員你真的相信把這個偵查權移給警察你真的睡得著覺嗎有沒有客觀性獨立性這樣說好了以及資源分配的問題每個國家的國情或有不同但是呢不得不說其實日本韓國的制度的確是有我國值得參考的地方那麼我剛剛問的是說檢察官會不會有濫權有權力過度集中的問題我覺得這個議題其實跟檢察官的工作量的負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4698.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4723.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
沒有太大直接的相關因為我們知道其實現在的這個圖片就是大家社會上面對於司法不獨立然後司法有濫權的問題其實很大一部分可能都是因為檢查制度的關係所造成人民的一個印象那我覺得這個部分其實是值得檢討的或許我們不需要就是像這個日本韓國完全都是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4724.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4747.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
司法警察作為最主要的偵查主體但是未來有沒有可能納入相關的案件可以有所謂的雙偵查主體的這個制度我覺得這個是可以思考的這個部分的話可能邀請檢察總長假設如果您未來被提名人有幸擔任檢察總長的話我覺得應該要去嚴正的思考這個問題好那接下來我要談的就是說您在自傳當中曾經有提到過就是說檢察官的辦案不應該只是追求定罪率更應該要有勇氣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4754.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4777.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
認錯和糾錯可是我們要怎麼樣去認錯跟糾錯呢這個部分的話是本席想請教的首先呢您說這個追求定罪率不是檢察官辦案的一個主要目標那麼可是追求定罪率不是法務部向來的主張嗎那麼如果不追求定罪率的話那麼是不是未來檢察官他可能濫刑起訴或是待遇起訴的問題會更為嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4781.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4801.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
報告委員你要相信我我當檢察官的時候從來不看報表因為我認為辦案的正確性就是定追率是隨著你的努力他自己就會上去那有什麼好看的而且每個月的新案子那麼多我沒有時間去看這個東西我的意思是檢察官不要只有看到那個定追率而是看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4803.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4826.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
當事人的人權公平審判的機會要給當事人有充分講話的機會有利跟不利的都要加以注意這樣才能夠做正確的判斷了解謝謝貝庭銘人您的說法但是不可否認的日本的定罪率是高達九成以上台灣的定罪率其實普遍來講大概就七八成像一些國安案件的定罪率它更低 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4827.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4832.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以我要講就是說是這個部分的話也是值得思考因為很多檢察官會認為說這向來整個法務部的主張是要追求的就是以定罪律它也是一個很重要去評鑑檢察官他到底起訴是不是夠嚴謹夠認真的一個指標好那接下來還有就是說現在我們看到檢察官幾乎沒有退場機制沒有退場機制現行的評鑑制度可能收了很多案件但是它成立的比例是微乎其微那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4856.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4868.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這代表說這個制度可能根本不是一個監督機制而是它更像是一個庇護的一個制度就保護檢察官那麼所以請問被提名人如果說一個檢察官他濫刑起訴不起訴或是濫權上訴那麼幾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4872.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4896.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
到最后都不会有任何的惩处那么人民要如何相信司法呢更何况就是说我们现在知道我们因为要推动就是呃人民这个司法信任度的提高啊然后人民参与司法所以现在已经有国民法官法就是国民去参与刑事审判法那未来在侦查的部分您是否支持我们也可以参考像是日本的做法制定检查审查会的专法 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4897.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4903.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們可以強化淘汰制度 也就是說讓人民也可以去參與有關於檢察官的這個總統的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4909.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4926.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
有關於監督檢察官我們本來就有評鑑委員會我們還有懲戒法院檢察院的彈劾這些都是在監督檢察官是不是依法在執行職務我們現在個案已經很多就是有人提出來檢舉我們會去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4929.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4957.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
而且事實上他的退場機制他的監督機制還是不夠延遲這一年來有四個檢察官已經被撤職了這是累積下來一年內有四位我們給他調整職務了所以我們是有退場機制不是沒有你現在支不支持未來如果說可以讓人民也可以參與刑事的審查制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4958.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4962.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
本來人民就可以申請個案評鑑啊您知道現在法務部本身有在推動這個法嗎沒有 應該是沒有您回去好好看你的立法計畫吧徐檢察官你還擔任法務部次長兩年吧 就每一年的立法計畫裡面都有這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4982.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5005.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以您看看是不是支持國民參與檢查審查法這個是你們自己的立法計畫接下來我還要再問一個就是社會上最有感的一個問題就是有關於淨檢文化那理論上偵查應該不公開但是為了保護被告的名譽避免輿論的審判 維護司法公正但是現在我們看到的情況是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5007.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5025.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
搜索還沒有結束筆錄還沒有做完特定媒體就已經掌握了這個相關的細節甚至連偵查的方向都精準的掌握那麼形態招總長說其實偵查不公開很難做到我想請問您您認為偵查不公開是不是真的很難做到無法落實所以它只是一個訊示規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5027.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5039.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我們要承認他很難但是我們還是會依規定必要的時候一定要立案偵辦然後事實要對外說明我們還是會努力的去偵辦我們過去這些年裡面有沒有曾經有兩個檢察官是因為違反偵查不公開的原則而被處分的沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5046.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5068.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
沒有所以這代表什麼代表也有可能另外你內部的監督機制其實出了很大的問題所以本先生想請教就是說假設你有幸上任你是否可以承諾就是未來可以建立偵查的存取追蹤機制如果說一旦有發生外洩追查到人或是對洩密者可以進行實質的懲處這個我們可以列入考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5073.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5084.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為偵查不公開看起來有些很多是技術面的問題麻煩是可以再請我最後一分鐘的時間也先聯席所以我稍微退一下好那我認為說偵查不公開的問題非常嚴重非常的重要也希望被提名如果您有事上的話應該要好好去處理這個問題然後最後一個問題就是有關於就是說因為您曾經擔任過國安局副局長但時間並不長其實只有九個月的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5101.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5108.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那么我想请问您 您认为国安局和检察官之间的两者关系是如何两者的职权逻辑思维是相同的吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5110.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5119.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我想他們的職責是不一樣的 一個是犯罪偵查 一個是情報的收集跟研析那不一樣 可是我們辦理國安所以就是因為兩個的體系 他的職權邏輯思維是並不一樣所以基本上是屬於一個緊張對立的關係 那麼就辦理這個相關的國安的這個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5136.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5155.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
當局為導向 為主可是我們可以看到在過去檢察官所偵辦的案件當中雖然說起訴跟被告的人數是逐年攀升可是他的定罪率以及定罪被告的人數卻是這個看起來是 曲線是下滑的所以我想請問被提名人以你過去的官員經驗是否會影響到你對偵查發動門檻的認定你將來會不會傾向採取的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5162.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5164.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
用預防性偵查取代證據導向的偵查你怎麼樣確保偵查體系不會國安思維化不會被國安思維滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5174.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5203.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們國安專組的檢察官在偵辦國安案件的時候都非常非常的等於是精準的來蒐集這些證據但是先天上他是有困難的他是有困難的但是我們檢察官還是不會放棄那我們二審對國安案件他也有一個確定判決的延期的一個小組也會把所有的可能被被法院不接受的一些判決我們會把他相關的資料都蒐集起來再做延期 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5203.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5230.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
本席非常期待就是假設您之後擔任有幸擔任檢察總長的話還是要抓住就檢察官最重要的職權就要以證據當然當然當然要證據辦案而不是用什麼情報啊情資就去辦案不行不行這個否則的話這會讓人民會認為這就是一個政治辦案然後打著國安知名可視的去行政治打壓政敵的這樣的一個情況這會引起人民對於司法更加不信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5231.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5235.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好那以上我就問到這邊好謝謝好謝謝董事長李委員接下來我們請張宏祿委員上台質詢我請備提名人好我們請備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5258.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5266.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
委員好我看了你自己的自傳什麼的我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5269.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5297.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這個在司法界反正操縱的都是關於人民生命財產生死很多的息息相關的問題那如何能夠保持初衷我相信要進入司法體系剛畢業一定有雄心旺志不然直接去當律師就好了幹嘛來這裡對不對那如何保持初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5298.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5304.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那你如果有機會當檢察總長之後如何讓我們的所有的同仁能夠保持初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5307.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5327.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我認為一個好的檢察官我們要有一個中心的理念我們今天不求財不求官為了是為人民來謀福利這一個信念可以一路陪我走了三十幾年我並沒有改變過我想這是一個中心思想如果一個人把錢跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5329.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5342.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
官位職位看得很重要他一定會被扭曲掉所以當檢察官一輩子當一個檢察官也是一種光榮個案的公平正義的追求是一個檢察官最偉大的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5344.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5366.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我就是看了你的自傳嘛你有這個想法嘛那你今天有機會當了總長你如何去讓全部的人能夠覺得他也能夠保持初衷因為我看到你有寫你的追求你的目標之一也是要人民相信司法然後呢要人民信賴司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5368.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5379.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所有的我們的檢察官做什麼的他如果有保持這個初心的話我相信所有的案子所有的什麼的都很容易可以接受人民的檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5383.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5398.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
你自己可以做得到那你有這個位置之後你如何去讓所有人也能夠永遠保持這個初衷我想我們的檢察長我們的主任檢察官都肩負這個使命你就是要把這個理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5399.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5423.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
傳達給每個檢察官都能夠堅持然後再透過所有能夠宣導的機會像其實我們很多辦了一些案子我們會適時的發布新聞讓媒體知道像之前我剛才講過的我們那個食品物理的案子我們就召開一個跟縣政府召開一個記者會讓媒體來播送我們如何幫國家省了十幾億那個報導也是非常的正向 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5423.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5451.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
彰化地檢署辦理那個國土案件連那個雜誌都有刊登天下雜誌都刊登過這個是是一件啦這個是你說的這些我也不否認但你認不認為啊我們常常講的啦身教言教很重要啦當然對不對身教言教很重要嘛那從上到下如果都是這樣子來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5452.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5468.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
幾年之後然後建立了這個規格建立了這種風氣你覺得這樣子會不會比從制度上來講空話快得多啊有沒有這個可能因為我對你們的體系不了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5470.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5486.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們當然除了個案追求公平正義做一個妥適的決定以外當然有機會宣導的時候我們也會去利用各種的媒介來宣導檢察官在為國家做了什麼事情只是檢察官通常是比較低調的這一點是先天設計的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5488.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5512.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我認為啊我剛講的生教研教這樣講好像是在教小學生啦但也不...是個比喻啦是你能不能要求包括從你啊或什麼本身做起你的形式風格你的就是怎麼樣對不對這個就是建立一個典範一個風範一個典範是對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5514.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5524.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
如果你有機會 你能不能說在你的任期裡面就是建立這個典範這個典範我一定會不斷的告訴很多人我的理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5525.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5545.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我再來會有機會我有可能有機會有接觸到檢察長啊或者是各地檢署的檢察官的機會我也會把這個理念介紹給所有的同仁大家能夠認同這個理念除了用嘴巴講還有很多啦我剛講的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5546.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5567.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
你如何去樹立的我相信你有你自己的智慧那我是期許說能夠這樣子做這個風氣的改變其實上位者如何去做我覺得這個就是典範的樹立這個很多歷史故事你也都知道也不用說了是沒有問題最後我就想其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5569.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5586.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我們在看很多的新聞很多什麼偵查不公開偵查不公開其實我真的覺得不管他是十惡不赦的人對啊或者是他一些小事情一些不能說小事情就是比如這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5589.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5599.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
有牽涉到私人私領域的事情我們看很多也都是報導出來啊這個未來我們到底能不能去防範啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5601.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5624.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
包委員我非常非常的認同偵查不公開這件事情我自己當檢察官我當檢察長我手下的案子絕對是密不通風而且我會一再告誡我們的司法人員那個司法警察這一件不准洩漏任何的消息其實我有辦了一些案子是非常大的但是外面都不知道因為檢察官辦案不是吹樓打鼓我們重點是把案子辦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5625.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5649.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這是我一直來的理念我希望把這個告訴所有的我們對於這種案子我們會嚴加的來檢討並且督導那如果有發現情節有涉及到刑事責任我會要求台高檢督導各地檢署檢察長要分案偵辦並在一段時間不違反偵查不公開的情況之下要對外說明我們非常重視這個問題只是真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5652.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5669.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
不是那麼容易辦的案子我們會全力以赴這就我剛說的啦典範如何樹立只要幾個樹立幾個典範我覺得大家就會往那個方向走啦是是好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來我們請王宏威 王委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5683.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5706.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好 謝謝主席 請貝提名人 沒關係你可以喝水好 我們請貝提名人上台貝提名人我想請問一下 因為在昨天召開的公聽會裡面各媒體非常重視的 也就是我們那個高檢署主任檢察官陳鴻達他的這個發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5709.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5713.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
因為我也看了這個相關的報告他大概是裡面偏扶最多的我也把它看完了那請問一下被提名人您對於陳鴻達主任檢察官對您的指教還有對線下就是我們檢察總長的這個職權功能角色你同意嗎還是你覺得有部分你是不以為然的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5740.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5755.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好 柯委員報告那可能陳主任陳主任是我非常敬重的學長他一直以來對司法獨立是不遺離的這是值得我們敬佩的那他可能質疑到可能沒有當過二審的檢察長以及北檢的檢察長他認為你的資歷不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5757.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5785.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那我想我們檢查生涯就是這幾年而已那可能長官賦予我們的任務我們必須要去接受然後去接受挑戰去磨練那每個人沒有辦法預先為自己規劃說我這一站在哪裡下一站在哪裡下一站在哪裡所以檢查總長從來在你的生涯規劃裡面有想過嗎從來沒有過從來沒有過因為我的目標是台中高分檢的主任檢察官而已那 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5786.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5809.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那司法人員認識人事條例16條規定的三款室友我是符合我是有時任檢察官超過20年以上所以我是符合那至於領導才能的部分他其中有一個重點他認為你的就是你的歷練裡面包含法務部次長包括這個國安局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5810.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5819.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
會使得你有具有政務官的濃厚政治性而沒有辦法在你就任檢察總長之後可以斬斷這些黨政人脈的關係那你覺得他這樣的疑慮存在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5826.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5844.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
保安委員我想陳主任的疑慮是多的因為我剛才有特別的提到說可以去檢視我在國安局副局長我做過的事情以及我當法務部的政務次長我做過的事情都是在為國家安全為我們保護的政策來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5846.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5867.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
哪一項是政治性的行為沒有啊我們在這裡修打詐司法在這裡修刑法哪一個是為政治的都是為全民的利益啊所以這種考慮我覺得職位不是重點是在於人的心如果我是一個公正的人我是一個守法的人我想去哪個位置會不會跳離法律的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5870.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5897.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我覺得大家會有這樣的質疑其實我看了你的履歷跟你過去的辦案老師說現任的檢察總長邢太昭他應該要負最大責任因為他一個非常濃厚的政治性他過去他在擔任檢察總長之前他太多政治辦案老師說我憑良心講我覺得被提名人我反而看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5899.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5904.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
因為邢太昭的爭議把檢察總長的位置都已經做到爛了讓大家沒有辦法信任檢察總長他是不是一個真的獨立超然的一個角色比如說最近就是三中案他過去邢太昭追殺這個三中案馬英九總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5920.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5925.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
現在到二審去年底他還是無罪結果好像高檢署還要準備再繼續上訴這個一個這麼在國內政治來說這麼明顯的一個政治案件搞到二審都無罪了還要繼續的上訴第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5943.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5955.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們為什麼一直非常擔心政治辦案馬上今年年底九合一選舉明年是總統大選在之前也就是韓國瑜院長參選總統的那一次突然出現了一個王立強的共諜案還有向心案當時啊這個政治性辦案到什麼程度先是把這個向心的夫婦她是從這個香港過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5970.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5990.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
然後先是 但他是共諜案共諜共諜 辦不下去了結果就說 但你洗錢洗錢辦不下去 通通無罪 通通沒事結果這對夫妻在台灣被限制出境 將近四年之久老實講 我覺得這都是我們司法的恥辱啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5992.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5996.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
為了配合一個總統選舉可以政治辦案到這種地步過去邢太昭還有什麼最近我們在討論能源問題當時台電有一個比較大的停電案他還去辦基層的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6008.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6032.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
老實講他還用什麼用國安層級來辦他說他們呢可能違反了什麼就說是影響什麼公用事業的然後召集所有檢察官因為那時候有很多停電注意有沒有有心人士故意要造成恐慌一個停電案變成去用司法的層級去辦就政治的層級去辦基層的員工真的是可忍孰不可忍啊更不要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6038.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6056.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
剛才也有委員在非常關心的就是有關於柯文哲案中的北檢洩密案有沒有涉及不法虛晃一招啊那時候習太太說痛心疾首啊要辦 辦了之後不了了之所以 被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6056.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6081.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你在這個此時此刻 你當然認為你過去的辦案你是中規中矩啦我憑良心 我看到你的案子不像習太昭這麼離譜可是非常重要一點如果你真的有幸當上檢察總長我覺得一定要把這樣的一個這麼濃厚的這種政治的色彩一定要盡量盡量的降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6082.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6106.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
最近韓國有一個他們的司法改革嘛他其實他是要修憲啦他們的改革其中就是限縮檢察官的調查權為什麼呢他覺得從他們過去幾次的政爭也好政治事件也好檢察官的權力太大了檢察官一再的涉入政治鬥爭裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6108.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6138.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
然後他們認為應該要限塑檢察官檢察官其實我們因為時間關係其實有太多要請教你啦別說無限的抗告檢察官可以一直抗告一直抗告我們希望二審能夠抗告法院能夠直接做裁定這個我美中贊成原來司法院提出來的修正草案他們自為裁定就好大家就不要再有分別不要再抗告了對不對他們只要做確定的他都發回我們當然要繼續做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6138.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6161.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那我請問一下 我剛才特別提到 像這個三中案作為一個前總統 震驚全國嘛已經十幾年啊 十多年 老實講 最近大家還討論到馬總統健康狀態啊說實在 一個人十幾年啊 這樣子的一個司法的這樣子追溯下來二審都無罪了 結果說還要上訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6163.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6178.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
沒完沒了所以我要講的就是說我們檢察官我有太大的一個權利了真的太大的權利要羈押也是你不羈押也是你那個交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6179.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6203.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不交保也是你起不起訴也是你你的新政已成最後就會變成尤其我們過去我剛談到有這麼多的一個根本跟政治有非常大關係而且在選舉期間去辦這種案子辦了四年下來什麼都沒有選舉也選舉完了然後人民的權利也被你也被你限縮了所以我真的一個期許 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6204.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6222.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我認為啊雖然我是作為在野黨但我認為你的狀況我認為是比邢太昭好太多了啦可是我也很擔心在現在的政治氛圍下以及我們對檢察官的這樣的一個權力之下權力不能濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6224.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6239.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
你同意對不對權利不能濫用不要到韓國大家受不了了最後要修憲去限縮在國會限縮檢察官的一個權利檢察官真的不能作為政治的打手這個是我最高最高的一個呼籲好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6240.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6263.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
是好 謝謝王宏威委員的發言對被提名的語重心長多所期許那接下來請王美惠委員來發言王美惠委員沒在來 請黃婕委員王美惠這次不行黃美惠委員 王美惠委員沒在來 接下來請黃婕委員黃婕委員 黃婕委員不在來 請張雅玲委員來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6281.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6282.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
請備提名人委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6286.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6314.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
你好 我想前面可能有很多跟關於政治的討論那我這邊基本上就是回到非常實務面的討論就是有關於兒少的議題上面想要來跟被提名人做一個討論就是說我想今天其實我最在意的事情是說未來一位要指揮監督全國檢察官的總長到底要用什麼樣子的案件來看待兒少我們這投影片還沒有出來是不是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6315.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6323.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
没关系我想我先讲的就是说因为我想最近有一个案子就是在土城的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6325.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6352.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
土城的一個案子是這個老師他是猥褻了12名兒童但是這個狀況是家屬其實已經在報案前就已經先打電話去確認流程警方也表示可以直接前往可是實際到現場又不要求他到另外一個派出所到了派出所之後又告訴他這個案件比較嚴重要到婦幼隊然後再去驗傷所以一個不到10歲的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6352.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6370.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
為了要讓加害人被追究就在這14個小時一次又一次的去撕開自己的創傷我認為我想自己我也看過您的自傳其實您是有這個婦幼的專業您過去也是這個婦幼保護跟被害人保護的一個歷練所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6373.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6393.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這件事情其實我看在2024年的時候高檢署舉辦重大兒虐與司法詢問員研討會的時候您自己就有公開提到說司法詢問員的制度是要避免兒少及心智障礙被害人反覆陳述減輕心理負擔也就是說要透過制度優化確保我們的被害人在平等跟尊重的環境下參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6394.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6410.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
司法的一個程序而事實上其實我們的程序上面也都存在不管是在衛福部也好法務部也好其實都有相關的一個程序可是我們的制度上似乎在第一線並沒有真正的落實您認為問題到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6412.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6427.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
報告委員因為委員所追尋的這個內容應該是比較超出我們今天的範圍因為附約案件的話並不在我們的督導範圍之內沒有我的意思是說我今天是要問您的態度您到底可以被檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6428.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6446.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為詳細的內容我沒有卷我也沒有辦法客觀的回答我只能就這個感覺如果說一個小孩子要重複陳述十幾次的話我們就要檢討了我們真的就要檢討了因為不應該發生這樣的事情因為我們都有值班人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6446.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6449.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
抱歉喔 因為其實我想這個不是說針對這個個案來回覆喔而是說我們對於這樣子的案這樣子的狀態而是要減速的一個狀態其實是我們的一個目標嘛 對吧我們現在正在做啊對 那我的問題就是說問題是它沒有落實嘛所以您認為這個問題是在哪裡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6463.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6478.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
因為有時候檢察官的判斷他可能認為說這個案子還有一些疑點可能請警察再繼續調查所以他沒有馬上去做那個偵訊這個都有可能發生所以具體的狀況一定要值班的檢察官才能夠了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6479.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6494.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那如果說重複十幾次這個就非常非常的因為其實我想並不是只有這個個案啦其實是有滿多不少的個案都有提出類似的問題那當時我們也做了一些了解普遍大家是說因為檢察官的案量很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6495.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6523.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以他難以及時親自詢問所以會用傳真指揮的方式來處理那結果就是讓被害人在警局枯等很久那也就是說原本我們的制度是好意希望可以保護他減速可是事實上卻造成他還是重複講那我想問一下就是說如果說您擔任檢察總長因為在我們的這個現在的檢察官的案量還是這麼大的狀況之下您覺得我們可以怎麼樣子來去改善這樣子的一個問題呢你有沒有一個方向呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6524.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6542.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我想檢察官缺言那這個是一整體的問題我們當然就增援啦那剛才那個性侵害我自己也辦過我知道就是說有時候檢察官基於證據的收集有時候問完以後發現還有一些東西要再鑑定那我們是不是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6543.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6570.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
有些就會在第二次的開庭我覺得從兩次以上的開庭一定會有有時候是為了證據的蒐集這調查到最後的部分發現有一塊可能還不完整那為了起訴當然要完整性以免說到最後會拿到不利的判決所以有可能再補充的詢問這都會發生但是減少減速流程這絕對是我們追求的目標這我們已經執行很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6571.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6599.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
對在被提名單未來如果真的是成為我們的檢查中章我希望我們可以如實的去檢討我們現在到底哪裡還有不足的地方然後你剛說有第一次開庭第二次開庭第一開始沒有拿到一些問題沒有達到陳述那這些東西是不是都可以再怎麼樣去精進因為畢竟我們還是要回到這個我們可以承諾我們可以承諾在相關的研討的時候也會提出來好那我還有下一題就是有關於我們的兒少延長性兒少性侵人被害人的追訴時效我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6600.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6614.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
想請教你的立場,你是否支持延長呢?這個我們的草案現在已經送到大院了當然是支持,就是在20歲以前就不列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6615.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6630.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就是說基本上您的態度是支持我們現在預告的版本嗎就是支持的OK好那我只是要了解你的態度那再來就是說我想要請教就是說因為我們還是回到一個檢察官我覺得我們這段時間其實社會也針對成少共 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6633.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6649.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
有很多的討論就是認為說我們應該要及早的介入更重的處理甚至把整個兒少的司法少年司法往成人的刑事司法的方向拉過去但是其實這有一點跟我們的CRC的精神是相違背的那我不曉得您的態度又是怎麼樣如何面對這樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6651.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6678.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我想這個部分司法院已經在做檢討了陳少共犯站在檢察官的立場法官不可以完全退離因為如果不解決陳少共犯的問題的話會有源源不絕的案子會進入少年法庭所以我們現在重點是要協助我們去追成年犯只有有效的肅清這些成年犯兒少才不會再繼續變成共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6678.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6686.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那你認為兒少他是被害者還是受害者呢他應該是證人他是證人我們是把他列為證人在我們這個角度是證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6687.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6716.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好 所以我的問題就是說因為我認為我們在這段時間其實跟一些檢察官在溝通了解的時候我們其實都可以感受到他們積極破案的一個決心大家都非常的想要趕快去避免下一個人受害這我百分之百肯定但是我們也可以看到說在這個過程之中它是不是有一些沒有考量到它也是一個需要被保護的額上這個東西要如何去平衡就是說當我積極的想要去破案的時候我可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6717.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6732.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
比較長的時間去來詢問他那這樣子的狀況之下可能就會讓或是有些詢問的方式也沒有非常的考量到他是一個受害者的角度所以我想這應該是要找到一個應該我們會引應該都會有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6733.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6746.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
遮蔽 隱匿 或者是有一些保護的措施兒少的話不可能是這樣大剌剌的就這樣當然我知道 我指的是說我們在這個包含他在詢問的時候呢有時候要陪同 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6747.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6776.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
有時候可是有時候也有這種例外的案例啦所以我想我們實務上面跟我們制度上面呈現了一個落差那所以我覺得就是說這部分其實就在有衝突的狀況之下就是期待說檢查總長未來您勝利擔任的時候呢我們還是要展現這樣子的態度不要說為了一面為了要積極的破案結果卻傷害了一個兒少的權益這中間是要取得一個平衡的好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6777.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6801.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員的發言接下來我們請李貞秀女士來上台發言非常歡迎基於整個朝野協商韓院長所做的法律的一個協商結論我們尊重 委員會尊重李貞秀女士的上台發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6803.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6832.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
主席好 要麻煩你幫忙請徐輝提名人上台 謝謝謝謝 因為特別跟李正秀女士來做一個說明就上一次這個整個朝野協商的一個結論我們也尊重基於對立法院長 韓國瑜院長對於法律協商的結論我們委員會尊重李正秀女士的上台發言但是我們也尊重目前行政院所有的一個結論 行政官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6833.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6841.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
可以不必尋答這個部分也請李正秋女士可以諒解請你充分把握你的發言的時間讓我們來聆聽好不好請國人大家幫忙一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6847.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6872.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
看看那個從大院質詢到今天然後賴政府團隊一直這樣子對一個陸配立委的公然羞辱那我先繼續我的那個質詢我要請教那個徐備提名人立法院通過中選會人事同意權行政院就應該依照程序發布人事令現在的行政院遲遲不肯發布你認為行政院這樣的職務怠惰夠不夠誠賭職罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6878.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6895.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以今天是不會有人回答那我在想說這種不是司法檢調都是獨立辦案嗎從昨天的中選會到今天的檢察總長現在都已經全部變成民進黨的檢查體系民進黨的中選會了嗎檢察官是不是應該要主動偵辦行政院著龍台 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6905.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6932.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
被提名人不回答是要包庇行政院長嗎中選會無法正常運作直接影響人民的參政投票權利民進黨政府現在是要沒收人民的基本權利嗎這些看來被提名人都無法回答今天是你是被那個人事審查權也可以傲慢到這樣不接受立委的詢打 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6935.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6943.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那台灣民眾黨我們大家都在看 國人承包也都在看還是被提名的人只在乎檢查總長的職位能不能通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6947.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6971.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
再來要請教被提名人台灣民眾黨黨團去年通過法院組織法落實了法庭透明但目前司法院卻背離立法原意將原本立法者要求的公開播送延遲司法院違背國會立法權限縮母法讓陽光無法照進法庭現在的法律已經變成有檢察官解釋了嗎還是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6972.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6998.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
有權可以扭曲立法者的原意這樣還需要立法院嗎還需要正當的立法程序嗎被提名的都不回答就對了請記得要尊重民意啊台灣民眾黨的不分區立委有30多萬的369萬的民意基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7006.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7030.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
立法院不是行政院的立法局目前外界眾多的質疑聲浪都在批評現在有些不肖檢察官讓偵查不公開變成偵查大公開檢察官的起訴書淪為八卦笑料近幾年從宜蘭縣長林芝妙案立法委員高金樹美案到 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7031.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7049.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
台灣民眾黨創黨主席的柯文哲案雖然個案背景不同但都看到了偵查內容不斷外流檢方配合特定媒體引導輿論辦案輿論審判當檢查不公開變成選擇性公開檢查不公開成了媒體最公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7054.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7081.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
甚至連羈押都敢拿來當工具押人逼供個別檢察官公然討好上意墮落至此請問被提名人你若是檢察總長你要如何防止檢察官濫權偵查所以目前新的被提名人完全無法回答本席的這些最基本的審查問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7083.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7111.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
最後被提名人回答民眾黨台灣民眾黨的問卷中有提到針對不適任的檢察官要有相關的淘汰機制不適任檢察官讓司法體系已經成為最不被人民信任的機關但過去的一年多經過懲戒法院解除職位的才四位這樣做得到所謂的發揮淘汰功能嗎被提名人你上任之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7113.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7140.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
怎麼改善所以大家現在看到一個很好笑的人事審查立法委員面對的是一個空的質詢台被提名人沒有任何回應是你不想要被檢視嗎還是不需要通過民意的審查就已經內定好 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7142.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7168.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
是檢察總長了嗎你今天配合整個行政體系打壓一個民選的不分區立法委員中華民國憲法所有的民意政務官也好包括賴清德總統甚至本席都是對著中華民國憲法宣誓就任的請問你們這些人眼裡有中華民國憲法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7171.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7182.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
你家裡的薪水都是中華民國納稅人的薪水不是民進黨給你的薪水 也不是賴政府賴團隊給你的薪水 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7185.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7214.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
陸配的民意代表台灣民眾黨不是先例之前的國民黨也有過南投謝議員一樣也是陸配身份可是他從上任到卸任從來沒有任何事法性的問題今天賴政府帶著整個行政團隊刻意的羞辱陸配立法委員打壓陸配的民意代表原來本身合法的民意代表也全部給他薪水扣除 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7216.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7234.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好 謝謝李珍秀女士那我想完全尊重你的發言行政部門或者行政官員或者被提名人之所以沒有上台倒不是他不尊重名義那是基於主席的一個才識他們可以不用上台備詢那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7237.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7239.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
本席期許檢察總長身為檢察體系的最高長官不能淪為當權者的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7262.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7289.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
法律打守啦 應該要積極維護程序正義維護司法正義 做全體國民的檢查整長讓人民能夠重新信任司法 謝謝好 謝謝李振秀女士啦 剛剛李振秀女士的發言其實除了說身份跟事實法律有待釐清以外那有一些發言也值得被提名人來做一個斟酌 再來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7301.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7310.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
接下來下一位我們邀請莊麗熊委員謝謝主席有請我們被提名人有請被提名人 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7313.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7336.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我想有幾個問題來請教總長被提名人我相信任何被提名總長一個必考題大家會問到的基於整個民主政治這個整個澄清勵志大家都會想到查查會選那今年又是一個大選年地方選舉本席倒有一些感慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7337.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7358.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不管 除了六都以外啊 我不敢說六都全部都沒有會選但是呢 你走出六都以外的一個地方啊各個縣市啊 應該總長被提名人在整個司法實務裡面那麼長的一段時間應該都非常清楚啦那個會選喔 實在是真的是太可怕太可怕你覺得我們基層選舉會選嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7365.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7390.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
越是偏鄉的很多的候選人還是認為買票是有效的是 這個是對台灣我們是民主政治到現在這個很迫切該去改革的一個問題啦你說我們兩回算好了沒有?很難了調查局也難了 警察也難了兩到八代表都什麼原因你知道嗎?人情的因素啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7392.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7420.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
對 沒錯我大膽的講啊你很多偏鄉的地方啊超過90%基層選舉都是會選我們他不知道 檢察官他不知道調查局他不知道 警察他不知道人情因素 人力的因素舉證很困難的因素會選 現在跟以前不一樣啦以前是愛家愛婦啊 本味嫂啦上雷拼啦 發現金啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7422.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7428.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我小時候 館長選舉 我跟你說 一票五十塊 又加二手小時候我都看得到 人家都幾個 現在不是了現在你說到發現金也很難去想像 幾乎都是買樁腳為什麼大家很會估票 調查局很會估票 你聽調查局在唬爛調查局哪會估票 那是樁腳在買票 很會估票所以現在買票都是買樁腳 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7452.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7474.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
故裝會在現金之前沒錯是嘛 幾乎都是這樣子的嘛所以我是覺得這個是被提問你必須要非常嚴肅去看待的問題我們法務部其實都非常嚴肅的去對外去宣示嚴查會選的一個決心可是那個成果在我這個從台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7477.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7499.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我台北去做議員 我看大家選立委我自己做總幹事回到屏東 現在去任養台東我看那個基層選舉 那個會選是可怕真的是可怕 我用可怕來形容所以我請教被提名人說 你有什麼補嗎現在已經發展到什麼了 你知道嗎票卡 農會裡面的幹部出來了 里長 船長出來了已經不在台灣了 飛到中國去 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7509.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7519.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
裝腳把你給綁死 免費的招待平常都不會穿什麼裝腳啦選舉要搞 你想 現在你要抓匯權 我都覺得時間都有點晚了我看前陣子都幾乎請光啦都已經帶到中國去啦那麼多的基層的幹部啊 全部這樣中央都帶去中國去拚 像這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7533.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7542.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們 你說都沒有掌握嗎哪有可能沒有掌握所以這個一定會蒐證我希望聽到你的口中提出來就是說你們有補嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7546.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7568.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
跟委員報告行蹤掌握一定要掌握再來金流想辦法拿到金流他們的出入還有金流這個都是將來所謂的間接證據我們要收集很多的東西那我們的那個茶茶會選的獎金也是會是一個誘因這些都是我們之前要先掌握的但是報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7569.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7587.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
任何的會選到最後一定要有現金到選民手上這個是跑不掉的我們抓到這個才有機會再往回回售所以有很多很多的偵查作為也不會在這裡詳細的談我們所有的查查的團隊現在早就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7588.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7617.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
天羅地王佈陷下去了所以這個我不能說100%的抓到但是我們一定會盡全力的嚴密的查查這個有點像什麼以前非洲有那個角馬經過那個河流鱷魚會去吃他們有這種理念就是一隻給你吃其他的我就安全了所以我們有限的人力我們要做最有效的一個佈局我要抓到最多的會權的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7618.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7635.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那事實上會有執行的困難我們也會克服我們會調所有的可以支援的人力全力的來查查我們調查局都會有一些支援的人力還有所有的警力也都會投入檢察官也都會投入我們會盡全力的去布線盡全力去查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7636.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7663.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
本席一直在司法法治委員會因為今年是選舉年我一定要緊盯這個議題我相信今年可以做出一個好成績這個不只是被提名的問題我相信黃次長也在這個地方這種要票要進到議會的都不會是好東西沒有說自己拿錢出來買票然後選上民意代表是要了為民服務沒有這麼崇高 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7665.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7688.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那種買票進來的 我跟你們說 都差不多10天內差不多全部的座駕有空不順的啦站在法務部的立場 站在總長被提名的立場你如果有一天 通過了立法院的一個提名以後我期待啊 對於今年整個地方選舉年加大力道 嚴格查查 打擊會選 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7689.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7704.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
好 現在已經開始在進行 好 這樣我一個問題 我就是要你充分第二個 我在期許啦 但你的偵查不公開那個 那個不要開玩笑啦有時候還沒有看到起訴書 還沒有起訴 這偵辦當中啊 這個過程裡面啊這樣背來背去 到最後證明 唉唷 夭壽真的都有這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7710.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7739.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
跟整個偵辦的內容有關這個從以前講到現在這個黃次長在這個地方也被問過很多次你們要如何去避免你們這個內控的一個機制你不可能民眾去幫你洩漏管道總是從你檢察官不管是調查員或者說書記官或者說律師律師不容易啦我看那個出來的部分啦在偵查當中出來那個幾乎都是用手機去拍的了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7740.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7752.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那所以偵查不公開的部分是不是也請你在這個地方來做一個宣示這是你要怎麼去避免否則對整個司法的公信力尤其對檢察官的部分那個都是很大的搶害 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7753.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7778.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我想偵查不公開檢討小組跟督導小組一定要落實來做檢討那如果發現有這些偵查不公開的可疑的時候那高檢署一定要督導 地檢署要分案偵辦而且要真正的落實去偵辦並且在一定時間不影響偵查不公開的情況之下一定要對外說明我覺得這一點一定要落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7780.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7789.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
因為他的確傷害了我們整個國人對於我們司法的一個信任而且這對當事人權益是很大的傷害但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7790.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7815.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
第一個但是查起來非常的困難第二個洩漏的人可能的人很多不一定是檢察官只是因為今天檢察官是偵查主體所以大家很容易就把這個責任丟到檢察官的身上其實我當檢察官這麼久哪有一個檢察官願意去洩漏這些東西這會造成偵查很大的阻礙所以我想不透怎麼會有這樣子的思維那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7816.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7845.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
有人就會解讀說搶當官 升官什麼的可是那是馬上現在在做的事情是馬上偵查就會受阻礙所以我一直都百思不得其解因為接觸的人太多了也要跟被提名的人來叮嚀這你不能想不透因為當了檢查總長以後你指揮的是從最高檢到高檢所有基層檢察官你要去讓指揮調度接受你的監督所有的責任到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7845.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7847.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
人家叫要叫什麼,那你來就叫你啊黃次長來就叫黃次長,就一定的啊你不能說我都想不透,不能想不透喔大家對你有所期待,這些負面的要把它給排除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7859.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7878.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
對於社會對司法的信任有幫助第二個對於檢察官的聲譽說實在話啦百分之百的人也會認為你們都脫離不了關係啦你們都想最有機會去洩露的嘛要怎麼樣去杜絕就看你們的作為啦後來有所期待因為這個部分不能掉以輕心好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7890.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7899.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
好來拍寫接下來我們有請這準備很久準備一副準備非常充分的徐宇珍委員來做選擇謝謝主席我們請徐備提名人謝謝有請備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7912.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7941.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
委員好被提名人您好今天我們在審查就是您被提名人的資格我想全國這個檢察總長是掌管全國的檢查體系所以說今天其實大家我想早上那麼多委員大家都在質詢的部分其實不只是看您的資歷夠不夠符合這樣的一個資格更重要的是要看你是不是能夠真的擋住政治力守住程序正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7942.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7959.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
檢察官回歸依法辦案而不是看顏色看風向跟看高層的意思所以你在這個自傳裡寫說要堅守政治中立要引領司法朝向公平公正的穩定發展要落實偵查不公開與偵辦的發展並重而且也要妥適的這個運用檢查一體更強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7963.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7983.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
檢查體系不可以受外界的這個壓力的干擾那這些話本席都完全的同意但問題是您近年來的經歷也是最容易讓人家質疑這個政治中立的地方包括說您在2023年9月借調到國安局擔任副局長在賴總統上任之後就擔任法務部的政司到了2026年 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7985.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8003.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個離開政策的職位調任最高檢主任檢察官那接著不到一個月總統就提名你出任檢察總長喔所以說包括這個您的這個剛剛有特別在昨天的宮廷會喔這個陳鴻達主任檢察官也提到了很多的質疑喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8003.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8033.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那這種從政務官到這個檢察體系最高首長的快速接軌從政治上來看社會會質疑你可能離執政黨太近而且這種過水式的職位轉換也讓人家不得不懷疑這個你是政治檢察總長那面對各界的質疑跟批評請問貝提名人你有什麼回應好 謝謝委員那如果委員有繼續看我的資歷的話在國安局副局長再往前推 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8033.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8050.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那可能就長達25年以上的檢察官所以我並不是一開始就站到非常好的位置一步一步我也是從後補一直一路往上爬的所以應該要去檢視我這25年我是不是這幾年我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8052.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8061.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
針對您的這個部分 你的自傳我都有看過了那我也了解您的背景但是為什麼大家會有這樣的質疑你必須要破除這樣的質疑就是要看您的表現那當然如果你有幸擔任這個整俠總長的時候你要怎麼破除外界對這樣子的一個質疑我覺得那才是重點對 沒錯 我完全贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8072.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8098.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那因為我覺得不要用我的職務去看我是不是有政治色彩而是要去看我擔任這個職務我做了什麼事這都可以檢討的好那我現在來請教您一下就是說在網路流傳有一個前我們的您看一下就是前民進黨的秘書長林錫耀的截圖對話關說司法人士那因為您是利害關係人那高檢署也已經表示分他治案在偵辦那請問一下您認不認識林錫耀 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8101.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8128.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這次對話是不是偽真?不認識 我完全不知道他們在說什麼那這件案子現在偵辦到 進度到哪?我也不知道那如果 那案件簽結了嗎?我不知道 因為你是關西人因為連問我都沒有 因為真的是我完全不認識這兩位 連見面都沒有那請教你喔 如果假設你有幸擔任檢察總長的話未來你是可以指揮這個案件的辦案喔那您要怎麼做 這樣合適嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8130.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8150.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個案子就我來講不管我有沒有擔任這個職務我一定是迴避如果有要約談我我一定會去做筆錄就這樣簡單我絕對不會去介入這個案子因為有這樣子的一個我想這個對話流出來代表說您其實也跟這個執政黨的關係很好否則的話不可能這樣一路的平步青雲但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8151.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8165.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
當然我相信你如果有幸擔任檢察總長的話你應該是要秉持著這樣子的一個中立的精神來去處理相關的問題那當然現在大家也都很關注的就是剛剛也有幾個委員提到就是偵查不公開的部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8166.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8177.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
您剛有提到說會嚴格的要求落實偵查不公在你的自傳裡面可是我剛看你在回答委員的問題的時候又說但是包括你回答國民黨對您提問的問題裡面你也提到說媒體報導為必然洩密查證困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8184.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8206.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因為您的態度很重要如果你就是要嚴格的偵查然後要落實這個偵查部公開如果有這樣的狀況你們一定會查到底辦到人那這樣子的話您的宣示相對很重要這樣會讓所有的這個基層的檢察官認為說當然剛剛有提到說不見得是檢察官但是在那機在整個的這個環境裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8206.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8233.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
如果我們的態度是一定會嚴辦到底的時候大家當然就會很警惕尤其是現在大家都知道連法務部長都脫口說禁檢那也都只有特定的媒體表示這個絕對有相當的問題那所以我相信很多委員也都期許說未來如果你擔任檢察總長一定要嚴格的來落實偵查不通不管是對你們的形象對整個社會的形象跟整個政府的形象都有很重大的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8234.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8260.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我完全支持 我們一定會嚴辦那我想這個部分要請 未來如果您擔任檢察總長一定要嚴格來辦理 絕對不能再讓這種禁檢的這個問題一直存在那最後再請教您一個就是說您在自傳裡面有提到檢察官因具備悲天憫人的精神也強調要保護被害人跟弱勢者的權益那對於現在這個有關廢死的議題八成的民意是強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8261.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8288.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個反對廢除死刑那但是因為現判8號這些已經本來被判刑的這個死刑犯喔那有可能您可以利用提起非常上訴來去把這個最高檢變成死刑犯的這個逃死轉運戰喔所以您的被庭名人是留給被害人家屬還是會留給那些透過法律程式無限期在拖延執行的極惡之人所以請問這個被庭名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8290.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8306.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
你可不可以承諾未來不會提起非常上訴來達成實質廢死的目標因為這是您說要把這個悲天憫人還有要保護我們這個被害人的權益跟弱勢者的權益包委員這是兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8307.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8330.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們對於被害人的保護是不遺餘力這是羅興司法的一塊我們一定要落實到底那對於非常上訴死刑犯的非常上訴是遵守113年宪判8號的判決的意義但是您覺得就是有被判處死刑的這些被害人這個加害人想當然而他絕對就是這個罪大惡極才會被判處死刑嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8331.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8350.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那所以你要怎麼去保護我們這些被害人的家屬我們也利用這個機會來說明我們是一個完整的一個程序走完但是我們絕對不會有所謂的廢死因為憲判也沒有說死刑是違憲的所以我們會把所有重進我們重進目前還有三件又判死刑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8356.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8376.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
不是沒有 我們法院還是希望但是我們的修正 我們的論告我們要更精緻還是希望說被庭名人如果您有姓陳為檢察總長的話針對您所提到的要保護被害人跟照顧弱勢家庭能夠真正的去落實而不是只是紙上的說法而已是 沒問題 是 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8379.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8391.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 謝謝徐宇貞 徐委員 這個很有內涵的發言我看你跟北庭文志同道合 理念相近 我願意跟人家道歉一下來 接下來請李博義委員來發言李博義委員 李博義委員不在 有請范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8410.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8412.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
有請徐備題名人有請備題名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8417.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8443.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
委員好徐備提名人好那我想我看到您的資歷您擔任檢察官是32年還是20幾年應該是20幾年因為中間有行政職中間有行政職那我想這應該是平均相當長的應該非常了解檢察官的文化對不對是那我想請問您覺得我們現在檢察官的職場已經性別平等了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8444.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8470.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們現在每一期招考的人數先講人數有時候女生會比男生還多然後我們的所有客觀的一個設備也都會考慮到這一個部分然後我們有若干的案件他侵害到女性的我們也都依法來辦理所以我們而且你看他只要提出申訴我們立刻就請專家進來我們成立審查教訓這個部分我們推行應該沒有遲滯 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8474.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8503.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好 那從您的角度你覺得推行相關性別平等的措施法規都沒有延遲 都有該做的做那我今天想從不同的角度跟您對話因為您很可能就是就是成為我們未來檢查體系的最高負責人那所以就想跟您看因為我們性別方面的專家比較會看的是升遷就像你講的從基層來看我這邊不管是左邊右邊 這都是公開的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8504.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8522.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
如果從地方檢察署的時候女性占比那真的接近一半了占比46%那高等檢察署變34最高檢察署剩23那另外從檢察官主任檢察官跟檢察長來看的話女性占比從46到36到14%就是全國檢察官考進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8528.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8558.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
的確如同您講的接近1比1可是到更高等的機關高等的職位的女性卻會越來越少那這個其實就符合我們在性別跟職涯發展的研究上你看這個以一個金字塔來講上面的是職位越高那當然就是她的權利跟薪水越高這個會講到就是說對基層的檢察官來講她的女性可能會遇到一個所謂的玻璃天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8559.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8571.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
玻璃天花板的意思就是你看不見可是它就在那裡讓你的身牽遇到阻礙這當然有很多各方面的因素不能夠直接歸咎於個人那我想給你看的是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8574.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8594.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
研究莊玲如跟陳令芳都是性別研究的專家他們研究女檢察官的看到第一個有孕產不友善的職場環境那從今天就是訪談講到一位在坐月子回來上班的時候他就是沒有辦法有足夠沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8595.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8623.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
適當的哺乳空間讓她覺得非常的狼狽在這過程中就是有就是乳汁噴出來讓她的衣服雖然她已經做足了準備那另外一邊呢也提到就是也是跟她整個的工作的空間沒有辦法讓她就是為了擠奶暫時中斷工作所以這讓女性檢察官可能會在工作跟孕產之間好像被迫二選一這是才是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8624.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8646.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那第二點還有提到的您剛講好像很多規則很性別平等那可是有一些文化是隱形的譬如說這個受訪的人他講到說他想要爭取平等升遷可是主管會以很關心他為他好的立場說你如果調到外地後你的小孩誰來照顧呢然後這位受訪者說我很想訪問訪問長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8649.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8666.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
如果身牽的男生掉到外地的時候他的小孩又要誰來照顧為什麼這些問題只出在女生身上不會出在男性身上右邊這個也一樣女性檢察官被假設晚上無法出勤不能辦辱人勒索案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8666.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8682.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這看起來好像是在照顧女性 為妳好可是這些重要的案件或者是說外派外地的工作最後如果都遇到這種為妳好的隱性歧視的話其實很可能限制女性檢察官的職涯發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8683.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8701.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那最後一個就是女性檢察官的受訪的人也提到說跟男性法警合作上遇到的困擾譬如說右邊這個訪談說警察會要求我不要分給女檢察官盡量分給男檢察官因為他們覺得跟男檢察官比較好講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8702.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8728.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
左邊這位是說他雖然已經去了去外勤了從左後方的下車那可是法醫就是應該要遞件給他那可是卻遞件給法醫那這個就是法警雖然他下車的位置是比較重要的坐在右後方我想這也談到就是說好像男性法警有一個潛在的性別歧視以男性為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8730.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8751.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
當然就是我們凡事都要以法規為講CEDAW是我們台灣簽署的聯合國跟性別平等相關的公約它有明確講怎麼樣做到性別友善一個是司法各級決策職位的均等另外一個是培訓考試中應該消除性別成規定型觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8752.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8769.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
還要納入性別平等的能力那還有呢應該要評估司法部門對性別平等問題的敏感度最後就是要有性別平等的改革包含就是方便照顧的工作時間和彈性工作的安排特別是對孕產期間的家長或女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8773.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8796.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以想問您,這也是學者提出來的軟硬體規劃、建制哺乳室還有各級人員如何有性別比例如果做不到的話可以檢討是什麼原因最後就是性別平權的教育因為時間的緣故,想請問被提名人您是不是支持要創造一個更為性別友善的職場環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8797.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8803.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
如果您支持的话上任后会提出哪些提升性别友善的政策跟具体措施呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8804.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8833.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
好 謝謝委員我完全贊同剛才委員所提點的這些內容我想宣導是絕對是要必要的那讓所有的同仁知道要尊重性別一切就是要平等的看待那職務的安排也要跨過不能有所謂的性別的考量我想這個是一定要做到的那我們的法規面的話也要去檢討如果有不滿足的我們一定要把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8833.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8851.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
修正好那第四個就硬體的設備剛才委員提到我據我當檢察長的經驗我們都有設我們都這個也是檢查的重點之一所以應該是不會但是委員剛才提到那些檢察官的抱怨我當檢察官這麼久也常常會聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8852.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8873.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為外勤的關係這的確有一些不方便因為一出去我曾經早上10點鐘出去外勤到晚上9點11個小時在外面如果同樣的情景發生在女生的身上就會有剛才講到是不是有哺乳的問題啊或者接送小孩的問題啊這個等等都是問題我知道都會不方便那我們男生就是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8876.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8891.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
被禮遇就是家裡的老婆會先犧牲掉所以我們大概就比較沒有後顧之憂那同樣女性的檢察官真的我就替她們覺得說她們真的很辛苦所以有時候家庭的資源就變得非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8892.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8918.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我想這些都是我們努力的剛才講的都是我們要努力的目標剛才那個委員又特別提到人數比例現在我們地檢署有五個檢察長是女性女性的同事我們22個地檢署有五個是女生你要說高也不算高但是已經是有佔一定的比例那再來就是最高檢最高檢都是比較資深的檢察官所以以當時他們的入局率女生本來就少 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8919.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8936.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以在最高檢那些資深的相對來講女生就會更少那你看地檢的話就已經很平均了所有的剛才委員提點我們一定會努力來改進那因為您講的就是您很認同可是有些你們做了那也許你們可以深入的了解就是說到底遇到的困難在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8936.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8955.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
是性別平權教育可以加強呢還是就是說他們身牽上的確有像您剛講的遇到就是說育兒啊哺乳啊等等讓他整個的有機會的工作他一開始就沒有被考慮到我想這個我要再補充再一點我希望所有的檢察長跟主任這個話不能這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8958.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8975.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我剛才委員所提到這個我們會去告訴我們的這些首長跟幹部不能這樣子說任何人要給他有相同的機會不能用這種理由來排斥他我希望沒有發生啦如果真的發生我們一定要稍微告誡他期待您當選後我們就繼續對話是是是謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8980.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8991.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好 謝謝范雲委員的發言接下來請丁學忠委員丁學忠委員丁學忠委員不在再有請我們劉淑冰委員好 謝謝主席那有請徐備提名人請備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9013.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9021.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
在今天的口頭報告當中你有提到辦案不應該只是要追求定罪率更應該要有針對面對的錯案要有糾錯跟認錯的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9028.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9035.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
本期就想要問你 你若成為檢察總長你個人將要善用非常上訴的權利想請問的是說如果有判決是違法取證或是估罪認定判決理由矛盾等冤錯的情形你會主動提起非常上訴嗎另外冤案就不會是一個個案你會在任內主動建立起冤錯案的盤點機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9054.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9064.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
並且加入到定期檢查的設計嗎那你剛才有這個想法就是說是不是你的想法裡面現在在法界裡面有具體公開的實際案例呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9067.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9088.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好 各位委員報告 刑事訴訟法441條判決 確定判決如果有違背法令的話檢察總長德提起非常上次 這是法定的職權那只要說這個判決 這個判決他真的是違背法令那我們有義務你會主動嗎 因為這是你在報告中所提起來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9089.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9107.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
主動就是這樣你看那個案件量我不可能去海撈我們希望有當事人自己來申請或者是有民間團體來申請這個我們來起可以起這個頭否則我們如果知道我們當然會去主動去做好你就主動我就知道了那有這個盤點的機事你在你的報告當中其實有提到有 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9108.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9125.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
台高檢有一個有罪判決檢討小組他們會定期 他們甚至於在檢討的六十幾件裡面其中也有一件送到最高檢察署來審查是否提及非常上訴那我們這裡本身也有爭議性的死刑案件的審查小組那請問這部分你有沒有具體的像你剛剛那一件是什麼是你預計會提起來的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9127.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9140.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們這只有統計數據如果詳細的資料的話我們要再回給我想說你既然已經要做檢查總長應該這部分就應該有一些想法不然你不會提出這些主動的我們是有目前你公開了解都沒有嗎有沒有說哪一件事你覺得應該要做的這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9146.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9171.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
就有一件送來非常傷處因為我們當時就是得到消息的時候去拿資料是兩天前而已那你之後是不是給本刑警會官那件是什麼樣的資料可以嗎?可以可以好謝謝那我們繼續往下看另外我們知道本黨的問卷當中有針對無限抗告跟財的反覆措施這個爭議就有提問你那您對於司法院106年10月院會所做的這個羈押抗告改革制度當中你的看法是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9172.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9197.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我們同意我們司法院這一個修正以後能夠在二審的抗告法院能夠直接進為裁定這樣也免得這個案子上上下下上上下下浪費偵查的時間這是要修法嗎對要修法我們同意所以那這邊你就你上去就修法我這樣講我修正一下這不是我能同意的我知道啦修法我們法務部的立場是同意的我們也都樂觀其成 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9200.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9215.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那對無限次抗告跟更裁與憲政是不是也是有在考慮的一個範圍之內呢我想還沒修法以前檢察官的工作就是監督法院所做的裁定跟判決所以我們是公益的代表人那您的意見呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9216.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9221.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們同意抗告法院能夠直接就裁定大家就不用再爭執了我同意但是在還沒有修法以前站在檢察官的職責公益代表人的立場我們為了要發現真實我們當然會據理力爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9239.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9254.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好 既然就是在說如果上級的抗告的這個法庭如果做自行裁決的話其實就已經可以解決很後面的問題嘛 對不對好 那我們希望說這部分呢不管是怎麼樣其實誰讓檢察總長我們都希望說這部分既然檢察署這邊有這個意見的話呢就應該往這邊慢慢去修訂是好 謝謝您 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9264.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9286.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
好 謝謝劉淑檳委員這個如果問答題我就打100分了但是這個還是要投票來 接下來有請我們邱惠露還是露露 妳說我念錯了我有教她尊重的那等一下我主席先做程序的宣告等一下我們林倩琪委員發言完以後先休息五分鐘來 請邱委員請好 有請徐備題名人有請備題名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9294.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9311.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好 謝謝主席還有各位在場的先進 大家好那這個徐貝提名人 您好那我想請教您一件事 請問您在檢查系統已經耕耘多少年了 工作年資報告委員 耕耘聽起來很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9312.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9338.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那我時任檢察官大概超過25年然後再來就行政職行政職 好了解我覺得25年人生能有幾個25年是 沒錯所以25年真的是算是很基層的工作做很久是 真的是一個非常這個讓人家肯定而且呈現的履歷因為我覺得檢察官其實在我們的印象當中都是一個打擊罪惡的一個先鋒那我相信你們的血液當中應該也是充滿爭議感 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9340.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9355.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
是 我這個就秉持不敢好 那我現在想請教你一件事就是說你在檢察界已經有25年了嘛那我不知道有沒有要逃離滿天下但是我在想經過這25年的這個跟人家應對互動應該人脈非常的豐沛啦那我想請問你有沒有聽過馬玉文檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9363.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9392.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
馬玉文檢察官因為我服務的機關在中北部我不曉得馬玉文檢察官非常的有名他被人家簡稱叫做馬檢那為什麼他會那麼有名呢因為他說他經營檢調已經七年了所以他完全有獲取到柯文哲的秘密的檔案就是Excel檔裡頭有1500那馬檢真的是非常的神通廣大那不知道你這位真正的檢察官怎麼來看這個馬檢應該他算是假的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9393.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9397.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
能夠取得這樣的資料那前提一定是已經偵查論公開了才會有這樣的讓他掌握到這些資料嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9402.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9424.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
他個人講什麼話我沒有辦法評論但是我還是會強調我自己當檢察官25年我對於在偵查中洩露偵查的內容是非常非常的忌諱因為他會嚴重的影響到我偵查作為甚至於證據會滅失 當事人會串證那一方面也會侵害到當事人的訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9426.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9453.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我已經掌握到了您對這個偵查大公開不公開的原則是信奉的所以我們一定會可是現在就是柯文哲主席的案件從去年前年就讓我們看到一個偵查大公開偵查亂公開偵查已經讓我們覺得說怎麼會看到這麼荒腔走板的一個司法劇情除了有馬玉文檢察官還有靜州刊檢察官啊 信靜明州刊啊你有聽過信靜明州刊這位檢察官嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9454.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9481.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
沒有好 那我就告訴你他就是我們在業界在坊間非常有名的淨檢現在有兩個檢察官非常具有高知名度一個就叫馬檢一個叫淨檢那完全曝露了就是偵查大公開然後偵查大公開檢察官這邊放出風聲給媒體跟媒體形成了一個媒跟檢共生的一個環境那除此之外呢黨檢媒三位議題一直在砲轟大攻擊核彈式的攻擊在野黨的委員您覺得這樣合適嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9484.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9511.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
剛才委員特別提到說檢察官放消息給這個媒體這個部分我還跟委員報告檢察官非常的辛苦上個禮拜還有一個北檢檢察官還送急診檢察官暗讀勞刑是拋棄身體健康我知道我有很多檢察官的朋友因為我也是法律出身的法官都是暗讀勞刑然後都是用他們的健康跟壽命在換得司法的正義所以在沒有確確的證據以前實在不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9512.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9535.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
馬簡新事件他經營7年信心200%可以說檢察官放給他的訊息是真的我想這件事可說公平時間也有限那我只您說您反對那如果有一天您成為檢察總長的時候希望您能夠整頓這個現象才能夠未來的行為呼應你現在的承諾那第二件事情就是那個好像檢察有一些檢察官為了升官發財他現在真的搭上 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9539.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9553.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
升官發財的直升機了他真的已經搭上升官發財的直升機了那他做了什麼行為以至於別人都搭不到這台升官發財的直升機但他卻搭上去了他到醫院去違法徵訊審慶金 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9556.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9584.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那請問你對這個看法如何他說我去視察那根本假視察指明其實就是要去做不當詢問違法偵訊的動作嘛那布曉德你對這件事的看法如何報告委員這是具體個案是所有的證據的證據證明力證據能力跟證明力到底能不能被接受希望到法庭上去我覺得我們沒有講究證據力證明力因為已經退而求其辭到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9585.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9603.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
真相發見真實的義務發見真實能不能夠澄清這當然也是一個非常重要的議題但是已經沒有辦法去奢求真相只想要知道說當人權被侵害到這種程度的時候我們的最高我們的檢察總長對這件事的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9604.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9615.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
包委員這是一個具體的個案案件也還沒有判決我記得新聞報導你好像提到說這並不違法然後人家問你說他是沒有違法但是我不要評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9617.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9623.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
沒有違法他都已經假視察知名然後跑去做違法詢問那沈慶金還出來講說他威脅我咬出柯文哲那你覺得這是一個那當場也沒有錄音那你覺得這是一個正當的詢問嗎這完全是踐踏在押被告的人權這完全是漠視正當法律程序啊我覺得不能夠以說這是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9641.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9667.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
然後就迴避這麼犀利的提問我的提問就是說 像這種不當詢問如果你以後當檢察總長你不能夠說這是個案啊 避之唯恐不及啊因為個案就會變通案如果這個風氣敗壞到 個案就會變通案那變通案 那如果這是通案呢 你的看法呢事實上這一件後來也有行政調查 也做監督處分了不是 應該是說交給新北來做監督處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9669.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9680.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
處分 處分結果是什麼不當言 那就是不當的發言的部分不是 他們也有做處理了所以就是 已經有處分啦可是處分的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9681.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9709.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
處分的結果檢評會送新北地檢署處理那結果出來了還沒有那我們希望這件事不要輕輕舉起最後輕輕放下因為我覺得這是司法的形象因為人民對司法的信任感已經其實非常的低了那任何一根駱駝任何一根稻草有可能會壓垮司法正義的駱駝這個部分我們還是要尊重新北地檢署依法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9709.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9719.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
以法處理問題是他們如果管管相互呈現出來在人民眼前的都是一些偏袒的報告那你叫人民怎麼信服就像我們柯文哲主席210萬的錢政治獻金就被認為是匯款那其實對這也是透過你們司法之手所確認出來的一個法律見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9732.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9757.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
你不能夠說北檢辦出來的大家沒有質疑的空間因為你們這麼荒腔走板人民又沒有質疑的空間這個不會不會回到之前所謂的白色恐怖白色恐怖我真的沒有看過但是另外一種顏色的恐怖好像是現在正在進行那我現在只想期許你說如果有一天你能夠成為檢察總長對於我今天提出來的問題不當詢問不當詢問還有呢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9761.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9789.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
什麼叫做視察你自己也回答說過去20年從來沒有一個人到醫院去視察過那當然他到現在還是沒有辦個例子他說他去視察根本不是一個例子那只是藉口所以從以前到現在根本沒有視察過鄰居園的那個例子根本可以掛單為什麼可以掛單因為那只是藉口他明明就是想去不正訊問的他明明就是想去把那個看能不能軟化省慶金軟的不行就用微波利藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9790.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9808.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後讓他咬出柯文哲這個是個案沒有錯這個是個案沒有錯但是他的判決結果其實已經出來了你現在出來評價其實你也不會影響到司法的公正心因為案件是不可能一審就判決確定他會再繼續上訴到二審還是屬於未判決確定的具體個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9811.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9832 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
好 沒有問題 沒有問題 你如果有一天變成檢察總長你的下面的人如果做了這些事難道你也不處理嗎 視而不見 從而不聞這種遵守法律程序一定會要求各級的檢察長一定要實質的做到我真的讀了法律20年啦 我也是法律背景的我讀了法律20年啦 我現在覺得說一些冠冕堂皇的話呢 都只出現在教科書啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9836.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9855.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
無罪推定在教科書有被現實的檢察官現實世界的檢察官操作下去就變成有罪推論嚴格證明法則在教科書上有啦被檢察官操作下去就變成不用證明法則啦210萬都可以變成匯款啦然後偵查不公開到了現實世界變成偵查亂公開啦所以我覺得您講的一口漂亮的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9864.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9875.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那這口漂亮的話是不是以後只能夠在教科書上回味追思而已我們的現實世界會有人展現這麼高風亮節的情操給我們看嗎這是我沉痛的發聲現實世界還有這些高風亮節的檢察官能夠幫我們守護無罪推薦原則偵查不公開原則嚴格證明原則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9890.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9912.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我們這樣的檢察官還很多所以你的意思就是一顆老鼠死毀了整鍋粥嘛沒有這樣子的話大家都很努力可是我們百姓看到的就是這樣啊我們百姓看到的就是說司法怎麼可以被操弄成這樣的程度好我們來講所以如果以後你成為一個檢察總長你要怎麼改善這些惡形惡狀的惡檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9917.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9936.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
偵查的過程中 擁有一點點的瑕疵但談不上惡行惡狀我想這樣的形容詞加註在我們檢察官的身上我覺得我們不能接受檢察官暗讀勞刑這麼辛苦 還被評價成這樣當然委員所指教的部分我們一定會要求各級檢察長一定要實質 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9937.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9956.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我也是個案在講那幾個檢察官林俊炎這幾個檢察官我並沒有在講全台灣的檢察官全台灣的檢察官當然大家都是盡忠職守但是真的被那幾顆老鼠屎搞得人家對他們有一些誤解我自己也是法律背景出身的檢察官我非常尊重因為他們是司法爭議最後一道防線那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9958.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9961.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
法官我更是尊重因為他們是司法正義的守門員我也沒有想要誣蔑他們但是這一兩年看起來的劇情就是讓我們覺得檢調系統還有法院系統真的有幾顆老鼠屎 敗壞風氣我講的也是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9972.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9979.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
好 謝謝邱委員感謝你我們對台灣民眾黨充分尊重所以你這時間特別多我們對被提名人我們給他充分的期待讓他有機會來這裡給我們詢問不然你跟妹妹你如果沒有跟他討論一次我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9999.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10011.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我剛是宣誓程序是林建啟委員之後現在慎重的邀請我們這個專業又美麗的林建啟委員上台來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10019.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10028.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
好 謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我請我們本席請最高檢察署檢查總長被提名人我們請主任檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10035.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10052.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
本席今天就幾個問題的實務運作來這邊跟您做個討論那麼第一個部分是有關於檢查一體那當然檢查一體其實最重要就是維持偵查一致性的一個指揮體系但是整個制度很重要的也是要強調檢察官應該要獨立來行使職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10057.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10075.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這兩者之間呢長期有一些沒有辦法被說清楚的灰色地帶那到底呢是應該依法獨立還是事實上常常讓人感覺上命下從那麼實際上呢主任檢察官檢察長對個案的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10075.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10091.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
指揮監督有沒有影響到個別檢察官的一個判斷甚至在實質上產生一些決策的壓力那本席這邊請教那目前在檢查體系當中上級對下級的一個指揮監督有沒有明確的界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10092.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10120.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那在什麼樣子的情況下可以介入個案還是是不是都有一些書面的記錄或者是可追溯的一個機制那第二個部分是如果基層檢察官對上級的指示有不同的法律見解的時候那目前的制度有沒有足以保障他能夠表達其意義還是最終都要服從指揮那第三個部分是那您是否支持更透明的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10121.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10144.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
甚至在一定的條件下對外揭露以避免外界質疑看不見的手再介入檢調偵辦那這邊一個說明就補充人民真正關心的不是法學理論上的檢查一體而是在具體的案件當中決定權在誰的手上有沒有受到不當干預那這個問題如果沒有辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10146.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10162.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
檢查體系常常都很難建立真正的法律的一個信賴所以您的看法呢好 謝謝委員我從第三個問題來回答委員那剛才委員提到說檢查議題是不是可以由外界來監督我跟委員報告不太可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10162.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10187.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
因為偵查中的案件是由外界來監督啦是某種程度的一個揭露跟大家不是 因為柯委員報告偵查中的案子一旦揭露就是洩露偵查中的秘密這大家都會有信心沒有在要求洩露不是要求洩露公開也不行你如何來讓大家能夠理解這個一定要對 整個法律體系的一個信心這個一定要到案件確定以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10188.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10208.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
判決確定或者是處分確定以後有人陳情我們調卷來看來聽錄音帶或者是說監察院來彈劾應該是這樣本席這邊提到的很重要一點就是說上命下從然後上命如果下不從有不同的法律見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10209.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10225.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那這樣子的一個狀況如何讓大家來建立對司法體系的一個信心應該阻止是這樣本席接下來才會再跟您講所謂揭露的這個問題所以上面這個部分的主題不是在所謂的揭露而是上面下從檢查一體的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10227.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10254.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所謂的檢查議題最主要就是要發揮團體的戰力也就是說要統一的見解以及怕有濫刑起訴的問題或者是一種違法不當的問題這都是裡面會隱藏的很多民眾也會要求說檢察官你怎麼可以濫刑起訴檢察官你怎麼可以違法偵查等等這些的過程我們檢察長基於督導的責任他必須要能夠去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10255.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10272.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
本席這邊可能還是把問題導引回我們最主要的諸子啦你要不要從第一個部分來做一個討論你說上級對下級的指揮監督那有沒有一些書面的記錄跟可追溯的機制其實本席第一個第一題講的是你們內部的問題內部體系的問題還沒有談到這個民眾對你們的一些你會介入的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10280.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10297.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
如果被監督的檢察官他有意見雙方一定要留下書面資料我要動用所謂的成績權或者是移轉權我全部都要用書面下達然後檢察官如果有不同意見一樣用書面表達留在卷裡面這就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10298.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10315.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
就是作為以後查考的一個依據所以這個是有一個機制的所以那他如果有這樣一個意義的表達那對於個案的一個介入程度那這個部分是不是有比較明確的一個機制或者是比較明確的一個界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10316.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10331.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
如果他無法接受的時候真的首長是可以動用所謂的成績權或者是移轉權但是我們相關的規定都寫得很清楚這要非常的慎重因為這個是會有爭議的那我們通常的做法會 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10332.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10351.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
邀集相關的一個主任檢察官檢察官一起來討論就所有的問題拿出來討論大家來尋求一個共識我想最後是一定要做決定的但是不管是怎麼樣這個決定絕對不是政治意義的問題這個都會留下資料將來都可以調件來回復原狀來討論說這樣當時的決定檢察長所做的懲濟權或者是遺傳權合不合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10359.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10379.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們就是說如果案件有一些爭議發生的時候我們有回溯的一個機制但是在過程當中我們會留下書面資料好那這是本席提供給你可能在你們內部需要就這個部分就是上面下蟲的這個區塊整個在這個中間的一個灰色地帶你如何去處理本席這邊提供給你這樣一個這個問題的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10382.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10396.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那第二部分就是你剛才一直比較關心的你一直往這個方向走也就是說偵查不公開跟媒體洩密的這個問題那我想這個其實是大眾都特別有感而且我相信很多的委員剛才前一位委員其實也談到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10397.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10416.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那你如何來偵查不公開最主要就是保障案件的偵辦您剛才也是提到那當事人的權益那但是呢你要提供一個強化內控落實保密教育的一個措施但實務上我們社會的觀感經常都是在這個偵查的時候就會有邊偵查邊放話的一個情況而且很多細節是鉅細靡遺 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10422.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10436.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
雖然你們一直在講說這個不公開可是本席大概觀察了十幾年經常都是本席所看到的這個狀況邊偵查就邊公開我相信整個社會是很有感的所以本席這邊來請教那第一目前對於偵查資訊的這個外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10438.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10459.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
多數都來自於檢查體系的內部那檢查署是不是針對這個部分可以進行調查統計與追溯你認為呢然後本席認為有統整才會有歸納才會有機會來找到破網那第二個部分是您如何來強化如果您有機會當上總長的話如何來強化內控的機制那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10460.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10478.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
目前違法偵查公開的一個成本過低的話呢不公開的成本過低制度再完整也沒有效那未來你是不是支持加重泄密責任第二個部分是能不能夠建立嚴格的懲戒機制那你對這樣子有沒有什麼樣的具體修法的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10480.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10496.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我完全贊成我們委員剛才所提示的內容我想這個偵查不公開真的是對我們來講殺傷力很大我說我當檢察官從來無法想像怎麼會有人在偵查的時候就把東西洩露出去所以我不認為所有的問題是出在檢察官身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10500.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10504.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
因為我認為這中間接觸到那在你們可控的範圍內那檢察署對於這個部分如果你以後有機會當總長的話那對於調查統計跟追蹤然後統整跟歸納您的看法是如何然後第二部分是本席講的比較具體的是那您對於加重泄密責任跟建立嚴懲的機制的一個修法的具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10524.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10542.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個我們可以會後我們跟我們法務部這邊來做通盤的來討論我想部長也是非常非常的重視這一個區塊我們也很想努力的去重演來偵辦這樣的案子但是事實上會遇到一些困難但是有困難我們還是要去克服我會要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10543.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10564.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這個方式可能要再更具體一點好不好然後修法的方向跟修法的具體方案那希望如果您有機會在這個位置上我想這個是民眾長期以來非常關心的一個問題好謝謝林倩琪委員林委員發言跟貝提姆委員看起來是志同道合我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10838.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10838.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10868.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10874.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好 我們繼續開會我們接下來請洪玉祥委員來做發言好 主席好有請徐貝提名人有請徐貝提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10890.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10914.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
因為我覺得這個很重要所以我先放下經濟召委我請呂委員代為主持問題很簡單大概就幾個問題第一個來講的話就是法庭直播我看你的問卷陽光是防腐劑接著又說陽光太過烈會灼傷法治所以你到底支持不支持即時轉播直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10917.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10944.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
保留因為現在目前司法院所做的延遲直播播放的話是有容錯的空間以免說直播的時候會影響到當時所有參與訴訟的人的一個權利甚至於政人可能因為我的看法是這樣子像我們憲法法庭我們兩個在質詢朝野黨團協商我們都是立法院公佈系統憲法法庭都是直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10944.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10962.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
包委員 憲法法庭討論的是違憲的審查不是實質事實的審查所以我們立法院比較不重要我們黨團協商不重要不是不是我們如果討論到可能當事人的生活的事實的時候美國也有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10965.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10974.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
其實延遲播放也是很多國家的一個立法例也不是沒有啦我會這樣講是說不要害怕不是害怕因為這個東西呢我就覺得就是應該要因為當時我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10980.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11008.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個立法的這個三讀這樣修正雖然是交給司法院也給你們一些權但是他把它閹割成這樣我是覺得不太開心因為民意75%幹嘛站在民意的對立面好了解你的立場下一個這一堆人在問那我也不想再問什麼東西我只是想說像在民間司改會久任偵查大公開法務部調查報告遲遲不出這個出了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11010.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11011.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
法務部有出嗎有沒有應該是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11018.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11040.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
還沒有嗎 好 沒關係就是說如果你上任了 假設你可以上任了那會不會徹底清查並且移送過去一年所有涉及違反偵查不公開的檢方人員也就是說我也希望就是建立一個偵查資訊外洩的專案通報跟年度的一個公開公報就好像我們企業都會做ESG啦 做這些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11043.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11058.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
可是我們這裡也都會有懲處的件數我們都有我有上去查過 很少啊寥寥可數 所以表示你們都是偵查 不會公開不是不是 我們也有處分的人113也有18位 114也有11位 總共29位北檢都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11064.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11086.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這是一個統計數據啦如果詳細的內容的話還要再講因為我想這也是民眾的觀感我都很簡單因為我也不是法律人我就是一個新科立委然後從外界的角度來看司法的不信任就是我們所有的這個民意調查裡面的第一名那檢察官的這個這樣的體制我們也希望你也可以這麼發最後最後我最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11088.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11098.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
外部監督這件事情就是2017施改國是會要求檢審會加入外部委員那你支持會不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11099.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11121.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我們檢審會的組成它的功能它是我們內部人事考機跟我們的書類的審查外部委員他進來的話他也不了解我們內部的一些這個為什麼會這樣講因為我也在民間產業公司待過所以我們的通常獎勵升遷人事審議甚至我們人評會等等的考察我們都有外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11122.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11146.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
而且我們的要求就是三分之一那如果像我們採購法公開招待也是三分之一的外部人員所以三分之一內部還三分之二外部如果你是重大採購所以我的意思是說這個其實對你們檢審會避免讓人家外界官官相護是一個很重要的我是覺得你可以去思考如果你有上任的話因為這個是我想看到的好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11146.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11152.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
謝謝謝謝洪裕祥委員接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請徐備提名人我請徐備提名人委員好徐備提名人你好我就直接請教因為外界對於我們現在偵查中的案件到底偵查不公開是 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11175.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11182.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們要捍衛的還是他是笑話一場這真的是過去不管什麼案件藍綠都有藍綠白都有就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11183.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11206.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
媒體雜誌可以到之後變成是說都了解說辦案中間的一個簡訊過程不管是之前柯文哲案件就有這樣的狀況或是像我們本院委員林黛華委員她的案件在偵查過程當中也有爆出這些什麼簡訊然後到最後實質的也確實影響林黛華委員在高雄的一個市長的初選的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11207.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11235.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
但不管怎麼樣本席現在就事論述我想問的是說你對於偵查不公開這件事情你的態度跟立場以及你要怎麼捍衛我們一定會要求各級就是台高檢的一個督導小組跟地檢的檢討小組一定要落實他們的功能而且只要是有類似像這麼大的案子一定要分案偵辦這都是口號嘛可是我現在要問的是說事實上就是要這樣做如果有機會你上任之後你會不會去查本席剛剛講到的這些案件到底是誰洩的密 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11236.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11245.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
如果我上任我不可能自己去查你會不會要求成立專案小組去查給國人交代給國人報告一定要把結果給 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11247.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11275.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
在不違反偵查不公開的情況之下當然現在違法偵查不公開是已經違反了而且狀況就是我們外界為什麼大家會變成是說每個禮拜好像看新聞報導然後就可以更新案件進度然後就搞得好像是那個記者直接就在檢察官辦公室一樣所以我們都懷疑說檢察官辦公室有沒有被滲透那當然檢察官勿枉勿縱這是我們過去大家都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11276.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11303.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
可是重點在於是說現在事實擺在眼前嘛受害者藍綠白都有啊所以本席才想問說剛剛舉的這至少這兩個例子或說其他的重大案件真的有偵查公開的狀況你成立專案小組來去做釐清讓國人知道事實真相可以做到嗎可以好 謝謝我們本席等著看那再來第二個部分喔我想要確認一下因為您過去有擔任過這個檢察官的一個相關資歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11306.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11331.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
詐騙大家深惡痛絕可是往往國人會有個迷思就是說為什麼好像有雙重標準或說這個比例不一樣就我拿一個最基本的例子有沒有太子集團幫忙洗錢的會計說15萬元交保沒有人能夠接受當然他後續要怎麼起訴或後續要怎麼樣的一個求刑那個是另外可是當國人看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11333.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11341.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
幾億的案件卻只有短短少少的金額交保的時候對比其他的幾千萬元的交保金還限制出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11342.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11366.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
掛什麼電子腳鐐等等的那你會不會覺得說在這個案這種案件上面持續出來其實會讓國人加深對於檢調的不信任包委員委員非常的清楚我們的整個的制度啊一個人的交保金額是涉及到他的經濟能力他涉案逃亡逃亡的可能性或者是說有相關對對對所以每個人個案都不一樣不是因為你未來要擔任這樣的一個職務所以說當然對於整個檢調體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11371.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11386.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
的公信力捍衛你就要有一個把關啊所以本席想要請教的是如果說越來越多詐騙集團讓國人的心目中印象都是重罪輕放或說重罪輕保那這樣子是不是會讓國人不夠信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11387.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11406.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我想國人會有這樣的感覺的話 我們只能說我們的宣導不夠可是交保他本來就是確定他將來會在申審的時候會出庭 將來執行不會跑掉那跟他的罪行將來判刑是沒有關係的本席換另外一個角度來請教就是說我們現在也看到其他國家針對說詐騙 針對這種詐騙的狀況譬如新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11411.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11438.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
他有這個有邊形的一個制度要來納入那對於檢察官來講就檢察官其實是捍衛公平正義的很重要的一環如果說我們現在也希望能夠降低詐騙的一個數目或是降低詐騙的犯罪的話未來有沒有考慮你支不支持能夠用更積極的方式來去對這一些加害者做求償就求刑或求償這一次的這一次我們那個詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11440.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11463.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
就是我們詐騙判罪妨礙條例因為大院的支持我們把刑度都提高這就是其中一個我們的公司協定 詐騙還是持續有嗎下降了 它的確下降了金額跟件數都下降了一天還是有一億到兩億多的詐騙金額嘛那本席現在問的是說除了刑度提高除了罰金加重之外你支不支持可以用更積極有效的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11464.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11487.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
參考國外的例子或是怎麼樣的方式就是我們大家一起來努力重點在於是什麼重點本席跟你的立場是一致的就我們不要讓詐騙在台灣猖獗氾濫嘛至於剛才其實委員我們在這裡也討論過很多次的就是有關邊形其實新加坡不是只有邊形而已它還是有很多的配套措施那不是只有單就這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11488.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11497.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
所以這些配套都需要行政部門來做但本席現在問的是您知不支持用更積極的方式政府尋求更積極的方式來對付詐騙集團讓詐騙集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11499.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11518.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
付出更高額的犯罪成本進一步的減低他想要在台灣犯罪的可能性因為委員設定的這個更積極的比較不是那麼明確我很難回答是好或不好我要消極一點你就可以因為我不曉得說我這樣回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11519.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11544.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
因為你不是很精確 我回答就有點不曉得要怎麼回答因為沒有在挖陷阱本席現在在講的其實是一個態度問題我們絕對 斗公你如果說現在好即便我們修法要修 打詐是法 打詐無法都修了但重點在於是說現在一天打詐儀表板還是有一億多兩億多的詐騙金額嘛也因此本席才講到的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11545.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11559.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
看起來打仗有成效有天花板那如果說現在罰越多或是判越重但是大家還是不怕那就變成是說詐騙集團他還是在這邊猖獗但每天還是有人受害啊所以我才想是說那有沒有更積極的方式邊形可能是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11560.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11586.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
可能有其他的方法那我們要去思考是怎麼樣能夠更積極有效現在目前台高捷一直在推所謂的預警機制現在已經有12家還是3家的銀行跟我們成立這就是更積極的方式之一啊這個我們在推 已經在推所以本席問的是說你支不支持更積極政府應該採取更積極的方式來打擊詐騙嚇阻犯罪這個預警的支持我們絕對支持我們要更積極的作為這個絕對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11587.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11603.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 謝謝我們一起努力我希望的是讓詐騙能夠在台灣降低甚至讓他們知道是說敢來台灣犯罪你就付出應有的代價當然 謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員我知道洪孟凱委員一直要推編刑你的編刑你如果加一個遊街示眾我就幫你支持了來 接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11611.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11623.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
陳清榮委員陳清榮委員陳清榮委員不在鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在來有請王安祥委員來發言請徐倍庭名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11638.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11656.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
委員好我今天問這一題就是有關於羈押無限抗告的部分常常我們看到羈押的裁定 上一層意見不一的時候常常會發生這種無限抗告的狀況其實在司法院106年10月11號也開過164年的院會也通過了這個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11660.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11680.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那其實在我們那個的問卷裡面啊其實被評審員也有回答了那我不曉得是不是可以利用這個機會再跟我們一些我看你好像是支持這個支持 支持就是說我們要做一些修正也就是上級法院自為裁定嘛對對對如果抗告法院能夠自為裁定的話那這個有關於羈押的部分就確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11681.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11693.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那該有的偵查作為就不會中斷我想這是樂觀其成不要上上下下一旦發回我們當然就要表示意見那當然就會有這個可能性發生那我非常贊成這個草案對我看到貝林園這幾項不管是落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11697.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11716.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
正當的程序或是跟國際的接軌或者是可以縮短公共利益或正常的時效基本上都非常支持因為我剛剛看前面委員也有提到這件事那我不曉得貝提琵如果您上任的話您要推動的程序或者是可能一些法制的程序您會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11717.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11724.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
因為這個主管機關是司法院那司法院會寫行政院的時候我們也會表示意見所以您沒有要主動來做這件事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11734.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11760.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個是法務部的法令的修訂是法務部的事情那當然如果詢問到最高檢的意見的話我一定會適時的表達意見剛剛也有很多人提到這個所謂的這個偵查公開的部分那是不是有一點時間還是跟您再請教一下這個對目前這個偵查大公開的狀況啊你的意見是怎麼樣要怎麼樣來防止這個事情繼續的發生謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11762.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11787.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我想偵查不公開絕對是為了保護偵查的進行順利有助於事實的反傳然後對於被告的權益的保障受公平審判的權益這個絕對是無庸置疑的所以我也很難想像檢察官在偵查的過程中絕對沒有理由會把偵查中的東西先提早丟出去因為這個會妨礙到他偵查的進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11789.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11807.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
以及證據有可能會滅失當事證人可能會串證所以這個對檢察官來一點好處都沒有所以我會嚴格的要求我們的台高檢的這個督導的小組以及地檢的一個監導小組一定要落實發揮他的功用 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11808.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11826.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
遇到類似這個情況嚴重的要主動來分案成立所謂的小組來追查是相關的有可能洩漏的管道我們希望能夠全面去防堵這個事你也知道現在司法公信力受到很大的侵害我想我們在學校教書 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11829.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11857.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
怎麼要教學生啊 我想大家都是從這個法律正統科班出身我覺得這個可能希望未來如果您當這個能夠順利的通過的話一定要針對這個部分要努力的來做一些改善好 感謝好 謝謝好 謝謝王安祥委員接下來請楊瓊英楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在蔡春綢蔡春綢蔡春綢委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11859.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11859.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
今天就繼續了 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11862.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11886.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我們所有登記發言的委員都已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會那委員蔡其昌 蘇巧慧 黃婕 李柏毅 王美惠所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11891.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11893.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
再查一下,我們再等一下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11946.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11946.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
哎 阿倫 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11953.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11957.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
其他委員現在還在有的在別的委員會在質詢請官員也稍待 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11984.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12001.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
報告聯席會 院會交付審查總長之請提名徐錫祥為最高檢察署檢察總長 請同意案業已完成審查來做如下的決議本案審查完略 依立法院職權刑事法第29條第3項的規定於4月20號擬拒審查報告提請院會來公決請問在場各位委員有一 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12010.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12035.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
沒有的話我們就通過那院會進行統一權行使的時候由召集委員莊瑞雄來做說明那關於本院各黨團對被提名人資格及適任性所提的書面問題以及總統府秘書長韓富舊被提名人所提出的相關資料均列入記錄刊登公報本次會議我們到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |