| IVOD_ID |
17333 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17333 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-09T08:37:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-09T13:14:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:37:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c5bef6d628ca9291d1f7efd4612d15537a9d5466ed3f81406eb43c93222f12ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部、農業部就「防制強迫勞動與公平招募：台灣移工制度接軌國際人權與供應鏈治理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【4月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:37:30 - 13:14:59 |
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好現在繼續開會本日會議議程為邀請勞動部部長經濟部農業部就防制強迫勞動與公平招募臺灣移工制度接軌國際人權與供應鏈治理進行專題報告並備質詢接著我們介紹在場的委員及列席官員王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1591.03 |
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1617.883 |
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勞動部洪森漢部長勞動力發展署黃玲玉署長勞動保險局白麗珍局長勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長職業安全衛生署林玉堂署長勞動及職業安全衛生研究所黃厚誠所長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1620.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1622.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
勞動關係師王厚偉師長勞動保險師陳美女師長勞動福祉退休師黃維琛師長勞動條件及就業平等師黃齊亞師長財產法人職業災害預防及重建中心李伯昌執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1647.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1655.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
經濟部投資促進師張明斌師長國際貿易署陳雅玲科長產業發展署張文鈺副組長農業部漁業署王茂成署長農民輔導師黃淑慧科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1675.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1679.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
接下來請我們的部會進行報告請勞動部洪森安部長報告時間10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1689.829 |
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1707.265 |
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主席 各位委員 各位現場的媒體朋友大家好那很感謝今天未完委員會邀請我們代表勞動部就大員排定的防制強迫勞動與公平招募台灣移工制度接軌國際人權與供應鏈治理進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1708.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1734.681 |
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那請各位給予指教那首先關於國際的趨勢跟我國企業面臨的風險目前全球的人權治理已經邁向法治化那尤其是歐美國家與聯合國已經將禁止強迫勞動正式與貿易來連結那國際普遍認同公平招募的原則那一級招募及相關的費用不得由移工來負擔以免造成抵債勞務 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1736.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1753.629 |
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一旦企業被認定存有強迫勞動風險產品將面臨扣押退運或品牌的抽單那會嚴重的損及國際競爭率和企業的形象為了保障勞工的權益並協助企業接軌國際的勞動人權標準降低經營的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1755.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1777.356 |
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老公部其實也從三大面向來推動配套措施首先在公平招募方面本部會規劃修正就業服務法全面禁止雇主或仲介扣留護照與工作許可等文件就無法修正草案今天早上會在行政院院會來列案討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1779.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1792.965 |
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待行政院會通過後將立即送交立法院來做審議那希望接下來大院各黨團可以一起支持本次的修法另外本部已經在11月115年2月13號發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1795.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1812.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
企業防制強迫勞動參考指引來供企業自我評估那同時從115年3月起那我們也與經濟部合作舉辦相關的說明宣導會那此外我們也檢討這個也會檢討修正仲介評鑑的指標那江中公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1813.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1835.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
協助引進這個公平招募的移工精神納入評分的項目其實在強化職聘方面那本部也已經成立這個職聘直接聘僱聯合服務中心那接下來會在中部跟南部也就是彰化跟高雄分中心來提升服務的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1835.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1859.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那也包括在115年的1月那我们也在菲律宾设置了第一个海外的据点那希望更进一步的提高政府的这个在移工政策上面的行政的量能那也希望健全跨国劳动延展的机制从源头降低招募费用与成本那最后是在中介收费透明化与合理化的部分本部将推动 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1861.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1883.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個修法那尤其這部分其實已經有在這個台美對的貿易談判裡面其實在ART裡面其實也有承諾那目標在三年內落實製造業漁養業雇主支付海外招募費用也就是不得向這個移工來收取相關費用那我們也將引導中間機構收費透明化和合理化 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1884.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1910.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
移工可以自由選擇維潤仲介公司且必須有服務事實才能夠收費那我們將透過定期抽查移工與仲介並利用年度評鑑的方式來加強實行跟落實那螞蟻完全其實是需要接軌國際的已經是我國的產業參與全球競爭力的必要的配備那短期內產業雖然可能面臨這個相關因應的挑戰但 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1911.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1928.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
長遠而言落實人權保障其實是可以大幅降低我們的企業在這個國際供應鏈上面的營運風險那也可以提高移工工作的穩定性達成勞資的雙贏所以本部將採用循序漸進的方式那協助企業挑戰將挑戰轉化為競爭的優勢那以上報告進行各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1936.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1962.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好 謝謝洪部長的報告現在開始詢答 做以下宣告一 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄 刊登公報二 本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘三 10點半截止發言登記四 委員如有書面諮詢 請於散會前提出預期不受理五 暫定10點半 休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1965.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1987.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
6 原則上11點半處理臨時提案 11點截止受案現在請登記第一位委員 另外請召委發言好 謝謝主席那首先我先麻煩我們的勞動部部長來 就請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1994.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2007.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們今天要談的大概不是貿易問題事實上是人權問題也是臺灣的國際信譽問題我們將兩公約國內法化之後不能一邊談民主政治一邊對強迫勞動視而不見但國際社會顯然認為我們做得不夠為什麼臺灣的遠洋語業從2020年 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2014.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2037.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
三度遭到美國列入同工及強迫勞動製品的一個清單那美國貿易代表署今年也啟動了301條款針對強迫勞動的調查我們台灣又被點名了那強迫勞動是我們急需要解決的問題所以我們今天想跟部長討論一下台灣到底要怎麼去面對這個問題那在台美對 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2039.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2064.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在台美對等貿易協定的一個記者會上我想部長你有參與你也有發言在55分左右的時間我們就看到你的發言那勞動部就公開承認要接軌國際的勞動規範強制我們的防止強制勞動你有提到其中的那個魚撈業也包含了我們的遠洋漁業那這點我覺得非常的重要因為遠洋漁業的強迫勞動議題正是我們國際社會最關切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2067.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2069.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
可是就有個根本性制度上的問題想請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2071.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2100.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在現行制度上下我們境外僱用外籍漁工不是用勞動法規管下而是境外僱用非我國籍漁船許可及管理辦法那主管機關也不是勞動部而是農業部漁業署所以這個根本性的那可是在那個記者會上你說要來處理勞動問題所以部長你在記者會上宣示的這些政策要怎麼落實到這些人身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2100.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2123.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
跟你們說沒有的確現在在部會分工上面那近海的漁業勞工的部分會是勞工部這邊來組成但是遠洋漁業的部分會是農業部漁業署所以這部分其實他當然都是在漁撈業下所以漁撈業下包括近海包括遠洋近海的部分是勞工部組的遠洋部分是可是2024年我們統計就有18555人的遠洋 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2127.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2143.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
境外聘用的那個外籍漁工漁工權益到底要誰來把關還是說這些承諾就像你剛剛講會不會你在這個記者會講的承諾只有近海的沒有遠洋的如果說不歸啊那部長那在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2145.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2172.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在台美貿易協定上承諾的說治本協定生效日期三年內因於台灣之法律為從事遠洋漁業之非國民的移工提供相當於我國從事相當相同職業值國民享有的勞動權的一個保障那個跟文說明剛才念的這段其實是約束跟美方的承諾是這樣那可能請約束這邊來對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2174.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2175.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們扣留身份的文件是國際勞工組織的十一項強迫勞動的指標之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2190.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2218.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
兩公寓平行報告也指出來說大部分的漁業的漁工都會被以出海工作不好保管為由要求簽署請僱主仲介為其保管的志願書但我想點出這個全責歸屬的問題現在境外僱用外籍漁工不適用就業服務法所以我想請問部長說境外僱用的外籍漁工也能有這個保障嗎這個政策會如何落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2219.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2225.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第一個事情是其實我們今天早上行政院院會已經會通過應該是會台討論 列為討論案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2230.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2253.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
就是關於這個救福法裡面那要把那個禁止留置勞工相關重要文件包括護照包括其他一些相關的許可文件的這樣子的修法的法案那如果今天早上的行政院會有在院會通過的話那會馬上的送到立法院來做審議那 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2255.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2267.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但遠洋漁工的部分確實現在在行政院的部會分工裡面目前還是經濟部嗎 漁業署嗎是漁業署好他們有相關的法規應該會來處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2270.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2285.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
來 署長 相關法規是什麼謝謝委員 跟委員報告就是說我們遠洋漁業其實在民國60年代就開始發展它一開始發展的時候其實它高度仰賴這個境外僱傭的漁工它的制度就是在境外 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2286.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2301.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這一個聘僱境外解僱所以當時那一塊裡面他一直沒有適用勞基法是這麼來的那剛剛委員特別提到說這一個證件的扣留的部分對 蘇長只要你先回答這個證件扣留 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2301.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2316.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那我們在去年也特別修了那剛剛就是說我們走的是遠洋漁業條例授權的相關的法規那在去年我們針對這一個政見扣留這一個部分我們也修法明文禁止說那什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2316.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2336.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
已經修完了對對已經修完了現在我們就明文禁止說你不管是船長船東仲介都不能違反漁工的意願去這一個扣留他的文件那漁工知道嗎知道這個我們在相關宣導為什麼現在民團還是他們現在在處理這個時候還是碰到這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2336.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2358.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
跟委員報告我們現在一年我們所有的漁船裡面我們的訪查率大概達到將近60%也就是說100條船我訪了60條船這個扣留證件這件事是我們避訪的一個題目就是說漁工你有沒有被船方扣留證件我們高度重視這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2359.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2383.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
署長你可能把相關的你剛剛講的你們查訪的這些東西相關的資料再給我們因為我覺得時間的關係再來就是我覺得針對於優化仲介評鑑這一塊我們團認為現在的評鑑相關資訊沒有完全公開資方代表有求人兼裁判之嫌而且評鑑流於刑事我今天是簡單化事實上他們報告給我的東西事實上是非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2384.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2408.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
而且更應該要跟移工有直接溝通的一個機制都沒有所以美國的人口範圍報告當中也直接建議說將社會公民的團體的意見比如包括製造業跟移工代表跟專家及從業人員的意見能不能正式納入人力仲介的評鑑的一個程序當中可是現在的評鑑就是仲介的評鑑事實上是由我們的農業部約署來主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2410.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2437.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那我先問部長說在可是在那個記者會上在優化平均這一塊事實上是宏山部長講的所以我就想說你們兩個邊的分工到底是什麼而且這是優化的平均制度會做出什麼樣的改善嗎其實現在在移工的這個主管方面那大概在行政這邊的部會分工其實大概就是我剛才說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2439.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2458.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
包括製造業營造業家庭看護工甚至現在的幫傭那以致近海的這個移工近海的漁業移工其實都是有勞動部這邊相關主管的法規來去做管轄可是平建是他們呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2459.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2487.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
呃評鑑的部分當然會涉及到他們自己他們原來是他們但我們也會有這個國國內的部分的中介評鑑那我們目前其實也在規劃這個中介評鑑的優化的做法尤其是要把這個公平招募的概念給放進來那剛剛委員講到說在這個評鑑的過程裡面我我自己的確認為各個厲害相關方都應該被納入進來可以表達他們的意見跟想法那包括當然包括民間團體好那也 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2489.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2492.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
請約署 也是比照辦理 既然我想不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2493.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2517.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們落地的有管 那遠洋的你沒有管然後那個評鑑你沒有辦法處理根據委員報告 其實我們的評鑑因為我們既然走了遠洋漁業條例 也有仲介機構那我們其實都是參考勞動部相關的規定建立了這一個仲介評鑑制度 那評鑑委員的部分我們我們有勞管所以請你都有相關的資料給我是說 包含你們這幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2518.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2528.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
邀請的委員是誰不是只有資方跟學者那民間團體甚至一些漁工代表都沒有這個請您再把相關的報告給我報告沒問題那勞動部承諾三年內要去落實我們的製造業跟漁勞業的移工的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2539.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2561.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我剛剛也聽到部長也講說你們接下來要做我看報告也有我認為這大是利益良善的政策可是我想追問三個問題第一個三零零付費的年度那個年度進度的那個指標是什麼那第二個是說如果沒有達成的話問責機制是什麼還有這項政策到底是誰來主動是農業部還是是勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2564.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2592.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
跟委員說明喔其實三年內那要以這個法規的方式來禁止像製造業跟漁勞業的移工收取招募還有相關的費用這部分是我們跟美方在ART裡面相關的承諾的事項是那我們的確我們認為這一個這個方向其實也符合目前國際上面勞動權益規範的部分可是如果沒有達成的話你的問責其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2594.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2622.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
其實我想這個政策方向當然就是我們要去努力去做的事情那也跟我們坦白說明其實因為台灣確實我們的中小企業比較多所以我們會在這裡面會需要有一點這個調試期這個所謂的調試期就是這三年所以在這三年的過程裡面我們現在其實已經在ART通過前我們已經發布了指引那接下來會有相關的宣導那我們也會來調整像剛剛我們剛才講到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2622.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2641.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
包括仲介的評鑑甚至其實相關的制度我們會一步一步的在這三年內讓我們的產業然後有能力來去因應接下來這樣子的國際的要求那我再去問一個就它外籍漁工母國的仲介費用這次是不是也是你們要去處理的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2642.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2670.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
跟委員報告一樣啊這個招募費的禁止收取這個部分我們國內的部分在我們境外僱用的遠糧漁工的部分我們現在已經是已經修法完成了禁止我們的仲介機構對那是這邊是那來源國的部分因為我們也支持就是跟勞動部的政策就是說未來漁工來到臺灣都是要零付費但是現在來源國這一端他的收費 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2671.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2689.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
其實是有一點不夠透明那到底要收多少我想這一個是應該雙邊我們台灣跟來源國雙邊要諮商好如果要由我們台灣的雇主要全額來吸收也沒關係大家要談清楚就是說你來源國那一邊你的費用從 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2691.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2710.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這一個護照健檢然後訓練到他的所謂的服務費到底多少可能要講清楚要不然我們僱主會有一個不知所措說那我答應了說由我僱主付那結果像印方收的這個招募費可能6000到7000美金那這個不談清楚的時候是很難跟我們僱主去說明的好 署長一樣這個還是提供我書面資料最後就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2720.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2738.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
針對於能不能擴大我們的災保的納保對象那因為之前我就先請教過部長了那部長說當然沒有辦法向家事移工那我們也有問過約署 約署是說商保都有可是基本上怎麼會跟民團的說法都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2739.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2760.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為時間關係我很簡單的就是希望漁業署可不可以給我你們所謂商保的納保率到底多少那數據提供給我然後未來我覺得還是要問我們的勞動部我們還是希望能夠朝向能夠納入在我們的那個災保法的一個納保對象是否有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2761.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2778.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
先跟委員報告這一個資料提供沒問題那我們現在法制是強制要求通通市要納入商業保險重點就是問題是你們的納保率說很高跟民團的那個狀況就說的是不一樣所以說請你們提供所有的相關數據給我們讓我們了解到否則的話我們覺得這個根本好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2784.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2804.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
是一邊講這個一邊講那個可是根本我們也是沒有辦法看數據最後我們就希望說不要把部分勞工排除在保障之外然後應該將境外的聘僱的外籍漁工一起納入到我們的勞動保險的法規所以我還是希望我們的勞動部能夠去研議跟漁業署這邊來共同合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2806.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2820.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
跟我們說明其實包括在這次這個台美的這個貿易談判裡面其實我想農業部約署其實也很清楚的確國際上面是要求說在遠洋漁工他其實要受到的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2822.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2847.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
勞動上面的權力的保障其實應該要往這個本國人去往這個方向去拉起所以我說這部分其實方向上是這樣所以即便用不同的法規可是這個要求的標準其實現在也要往拉起的方向去目前這是我們跟農業部會分工在跟這個社外的談判裡面其實方向是這樣就算是不同的法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2848.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2862.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
但是盡量要求的標準要趨近好 再麻煩 謝謝好 謝謝丁育群 趙偉的發言也謝謝各級官員的阿巡下一位請陳建輝委員發言謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員的出席我們請洪聖漢部長請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2883.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2903.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
一開始先講一些就最近觀察到的數據讓您知道2025年的工總呢他白皮書發表說最近最大的問題就是缺工我想這個你應該也都知道了那跟您比較相關的是財訊做了一個對於賴清德總統的民調那他最滿意喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2904.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2933.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
他們最滿意的政策85.6%剛好是你從前反對那就是調整非核家園這樣子的政策可是企業是很支持的那最不滿意的政策剛好也跟您相關這個就是缺工的問題有63%的企業不滿意現況那未來呢我覺得您可能常會面對到這樣子的問題可能每次答詢都要講這些所以未來應該也沒有什麼要迴避的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2934.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2957.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
本期今天只是想跟你討論說剛你有一直提到說外籍的移工或者是這篇是在講外籍的實習生那你都希望可以盡量跟本國人拉齊這你剛答詢林月琴委員的那缺工就真的太嚴重所以不管是交通部經濟部教育部都引進了外籍留學生這樣子的人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2959.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2980.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
很多委員都質詢所以今年2026年1月的時候經濟部就提出了企業級法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點那裡面也一直強調說都有找勞動部要來稽查找勞動部給意見所以其實他們就是找勞動部來背書說他們有正視這些實習生的勞權 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2983.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3004.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
經濟部說要比較勞務的事實但這個實習要點我不知道你有沒有注意到他其實沒有很強烈的罰則他唯一的處罰就是說他會對實習單位撤銷或廢止實習核准函所以我想問您會覺得說這有達到您剛提到的想要跟本國人拉起這個標準嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3006.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3030.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
跟陳委員說明其實現在在講的這個外國實習生他們的學籍現在在包括是經濟部跟交通部他們的學籍其實是在國外那是由國外的學生那國外的這個學校單位來跟來找台灣的企業來去做這樣實習的合作那在今年以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3031.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3037.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
其實這樣子的實習生他用他用這樣實習的名義其實他 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3039.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3066.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
有很多的包括薪資的給付包括相關的權益說實話都跟現在台灣的勞動法規是有一段落差的所以其實去年就是我們勞動部我們也去找包括經濟部包括交通部也包括行政院大家協調我們認為這樣子的做法不是個辦法因為這會讓很多企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3067.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3090.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
就會用這樣子的方式可能會繞開勞動的法規甚至去找這個相對非常非常廉價的或便宜的這個勞動力我們認為不是辦法所以我們才在應該是在去年的時候在行政院跟經濟部跟交通部來討論至少他們應該要把這個用這樣子方式的進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3092.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3107.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
外國籍的實習生比方說他們的工資他們相關的權益包括可能相關該做的一些這個尤其是薪資的部分然後勞動條件應該至少要比照我們臺灣勞動法規的最低的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3108.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3125.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那所以現在應該在1月1號之後在經濟部跟交通部其實他們有調整了他們薪資的相關的規範想要把它給拉起來那這部分的確我們是跟一步一步談不然如果在去年的情境的話很有可能其實這個一個外國籍醫生他一個月拿到的薪資確實是非常低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3126.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3152.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那我舉一個很簡單的例子我舉一個很簡單的例子因為我看了一下這個實習要點裡面一個很簡單的例子也會是您重視的如果根據勞工保險條例沒有對勞工投保那他這個罰環是重的可能從4倍到10倍都有根據第72條第38條可是這個實習要點就像我剛剛跟你講的他只會對實習單位做撤銷或是廢止核准函 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3152.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3160.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那除了薪資我覺得他們的勞權你未來的進度是如何否則我們又會常常被冠上這種強迫勞動的惡名 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3162.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3183.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
跟這跟陳委員說明第一個確實因為比方說如果如果這個學生他是學籍是在國內那學籍在國內的話其實通常會分成學習型實習跟工作型實習如果是工作型實習的話其實就是比較工作你的意思是說因為他學籍不在國內所以你這邊有點困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3186.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3214.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為他的學籍不在國內所以他不太目前的確在現有的這個司法性上他不太適用於我們目前國內的勞動法規但是我跟你說他現在是由他的他進來的方式是由經濟部跟交通部可是經濟部經濟部的投審代理司長他對外的發言他是說過去較偏重學生身份現在的重點則是放在勞務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3214.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3233.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以呢他會給予勞務提供者的相對基本保障並且啊他還直接講說他會不定期的與勞動部共同進行房事所以他自己經濟部他已經把他偏重在勞務提供者勒跟問說明這是我們去跟經濟部談 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3236.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3252.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
現在大家才比較清楚至少在這個國外學籍的實習生進來他就是一個應該是比較一個工作型只是他的法規是法性上面法規是法性上面的確他目前不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3254.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3280.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
不是直接適用勞動部這邊主管的相關法規所以比較要從經濟部跟交通部他們訂的要點那這部分我們也一直在跟經濟部溝通他們應該把這個相關的標準給拉高好那我講下一個案例這個新聞我相信你應該有看到就是BBC去採訪我們的一位外籍移工那這個移工他是女性他跟其他的女性組了一個女性工人組織的工會那隨即呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3281.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3294.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
有這個工會成立之後他就跟其他組工會的人被非法解僱就規定他們說離開產線交回制服員工證一個小時內搬出宿舍因為他們破壞和諧那這個BC對我們的報導是非常不 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3296.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3314.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
非常其實非常侵犯到我們國家的顏面啦因為他直接說台灣移工是囚犯式的管理那為什麼這樣描述是因為他們在這個宿舍女生規定一定要住有宵禁所以呢回來以後還要拍照回傳那如果說你 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3314.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3326.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
遲了或者是說你未歸那你就要被罰一些勞動的清掃廁所等等清掃廁所還要再存證所以這個移工他說他整個手機裡面全部都是每天打卡或是清掃廁所這些照片那他認為啊他 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3330.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3354.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
如果這個在臺灣如果這些人他可能有其他的親戚朋友他出去他就要趕著11點回來並且被公司規定說你在臺灣有什麼認識的人姓名手機地址全部都要交出來那這個工會的幹部也說如果這個他們裡面有個內部管理的規章被他們取得如果在受雇的時候談戀愛等等結婚懷孕就會被受罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3355.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3370.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那這家呢他已經因為歧視懷孕者曾經被桃園市政府開罰30萬今年呢勞動部已經函請新北市勞動局依法調查那我只想確認一下您現在掌握的中央調查進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3371.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3393.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
根本說明因為這個案是在去年的下半年那因為他有新北的部分有桃園的部分所以其實相關的部分我們其實都請地方政府去查查那其實我們其實都就是說就是依法辦理那如果其實在查查過程裡面確確有違法的事證的話該怎麼處理 多久之內我們可以看到這個裁罰的公函 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3394.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3414.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
現在就我們知道他應該是在台灣市的這個檢查下面去年12月應該有被裁罰兩筆一個是應該是一個是我記得一個是性供法一個是加班公使的部分那加班公使是勞基法那他應該當然這個這個案例裡面還有一個部分是現在進入到裁決的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3415.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3445.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那不到網絡請願的部分那這部進度我請市長說你就簡單的講大概多久以內我們大概就四月份就會完成這個整個裁決的調查跟確定好那我們在等你的裁決公函那依照這個例子其實我就想跟您討論一下外國人生活照顧服務計畫書裁量基準那這個基準當然是為了保護這些移工宿舍他規定的空間的大小這個廁所啦 隱私啊 安全啊等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3445.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3468.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
它硬體的規定比較多但您從這個案例看得出來說您這個採樣基準其實很難規定到它延伸出去的管理問題比如說門禁 拍照 私生活的監控 交往 懷孕等等它已經逾越人權的這樣子的紅線是沒有辦法藉由這個基準來規範的您認為這個基準是需要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3470.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3485.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
根本說沒有其實我認為我們現在的這個基準就是我們其實這些相關的執法或者相關的基準其實如果大家有更進一步相關的意見的話我認為我們的目標其實根本我們發言所目標很簡單就是我們應該對齊國際的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3487.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3504.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那在這個國際的標準的這個範疇之下那我們當然都可以來對於這些相關的標準來進行一些檢討我想這個因為我們也看到一個狀況是這些國際的標準它其實標準也越來越高它也在變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3506.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3528.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
大家對長期活動的問題也越來越重視不管是我們很多貿易的重要的貿易夥伴國家或者是很多的供應鏈的品牌或者是進口商他們其實對這部分的重視程度包括要求標準越來越高所以我們的確也會需要針對這部分一段時間就來檢視我們的標準跟國際的標準之間有沒有落差是不是要調整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3529.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3551.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那我等一下再跟您請教這個進度所以因為剛剛已經你們都有提到了因為ART所以2026年2月你們也發布了一個企業防制強迫勞動參考的指引但是呢這個指引他就欠缺執行力更強的查核揭露還有處罰機制我舉一個國建署自己統計的例子國建署他跟勞保局一起統計2024年有6000名移工懷孕 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3555.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3568.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
但是呢被聯手勸退就回到了母國所以這高達78%是終止契約的看在人民的眼裡這個數據正常嗎所以您覺得這個指引真的有規範到雇主嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3570.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3590.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
跟委員說明第一個這裡面會分幾個層次其實現在ILO在強迫勞動上面其實是有11項指標那我們自己其實也去做了相關的法規的檢視在法規的檢視裡面大概我們認為比方說有幾項的確我們在法規上面其實有強化的必要比方說 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3591.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3608.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
不應該扣留移工相關的證件這也是為什麼今天我們提出這個修法這部分這個你說今天院會會討論你們有預計什麼時候要完成修法嗎要什麼時候送到立法院今天如果院會通過就馬上送就馬上送到立法院就關於扣留護照立法院扣留的部分那另外一個部分是包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3609.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3637.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
就是招募費就是recruitment fee的部分那這的確在我們在跟美方的承諾裡面是認為是三年內要用法規來明定用法規來明確不能夠向移工來做收費不然這就會有抵債勞務的問題所以這幾個部分這幾個指標尤其特定這幾個指標確實在法規上我們認為有強化的必要那剛剛委員剛剛其實前面在講的的確指引的部分它其實比較是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3638.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3661.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我們很多企業比較知道第一個怎麼樣去辨識自己目前強迫勞動的風險但是這個得靠企業的自律啊對所以他有些部分他也要靠法規可是法規的修訂會部分法規修訂會陸陸續續一步一步的來修訂那我以為你剛才講的包括查核包括處罰這當然都是需要法規的那指引的目的是因為很多企業現在先來跟我們做他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3663.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3675.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我大概知道國際上有這個要求可是我不知道該怎麼做我不知道該怎麼去檢視我的風險那這一個指引的目的是協助我們的企業先做辨識風險才有辦法管理風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3678.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3699.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好那我給你三個結論就剛提到的啦這個指引他缺乏強制力他就是很仰賴自律那當然我們也有很好的企業但是也有可能不良的企業那很難防堵他侵害人權那第二當然是包括這個我們來規定他建議他生活照顧標準的裁量基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3700.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3724.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
他部分是著重在硬體您剛也說您會考量把他延伸到這個管理層面以免他逾越了一些私人的紅線等等的監控那這個第三項就是修復法第五條跟第四條那這三樣因為中間您已經解釋了所以關於指引還有基準您要怎麼修改可不可以一個月提供書面報告給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3726.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3738.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
第一個我可以跟委員這邊我們請同仁這邊相關資料再說但我覺得一個重要的原則就是希望要能夠接軌國際的要求跟標準其實我覺得這是最重要的原則好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝我們的陳金輝委員接下來請邱惠祿委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3762.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3769.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
主席還有各位委員各位政府部門的同仁大家好好那有請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3776.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3798.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好部長好部長我上次在這裡質詢你的議題是違約金的問題那我這次想跟你就教的問題是留任獎金的問題這樣子好那我想部長跟我一樣應該對於這個違約金條款的一些相關規範有一些基本的了解就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3800.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3820.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
醫院他為了留住護理人員不想讓護理人員任意離職所以他會寄出違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由但是這個違約金條款要經過必要性跟合理性的檢驗才能夠看他是不是有效的違約金條款那如果是無效的就沒有辦法約束護理人員的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3821.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3843.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那也許是這幾年勞權議事抬頭 雇主已經慢慢的意識到說用違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由 其實很容易因為它無效而約束不住所以開始改弦易策 那個腦筋就慢慢動到其他的方式 例如說留任獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3844.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3861.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
早期會比較用違約金的方式去約束護理人員的自由那現在比較洋氣用違約金但洋氣並不是完全根絕如果完全根絕就沒有必要上次來這邊再跟部長對於違約金的事情來做交流那現在就是他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3862.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3887.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
比較傾向是用留任獎金的方式去留住護理人員的心去留住護理人員的人在職場因為畢竟留任獎金是一個鼓勵性質的手段那所以我這邊先給部長看一下這個留任獎金的這個手段真的是已經慢慢出現在醫院要留人的方式了那這是上個禮拜的這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3888.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3914.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
報導那這邊就提到說台中醫院為了留人所以呢3年祭出18萬意思就是護理人員如果能夠認滿3年就可以取得18萬的留任獎金那這個是去年12月9號的新聞那這是一個地方政府介入在要如何去挽救護理人力的故事那台東縣政府他就宣布他投入4千萬然後呢作為這7家醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3916.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3933.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
在留任護理人員的時候給予留任獎金的一個後盾給予留任獎金的一個後盾那這個羅東醫院是在去年的5月9號其實這就是在護師節的前夕所以護師節的前夕是會有一些放送的那我這邊提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3935.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3961.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
今年的護師節是5月12號那通常護師節的前夕會有放送一些東西那個什麼薪資的提升啊勞動小生的改善啊所以我到這邊先預告給那個部長知道還有一個月的時間可以準備看要送什麼禮物給護理人員那羅東博愛醫院呢他們就是祭出了兩年12萬的留任獎金那一樣屏東縣也是在去年護師節的前夕那就說我們縣內的7家醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3965.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3993.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
趕快過來跟我喝一個大和解咖啡和解什麼呢就是你們要祭出高的留任獎金然後跟遠離跟逃離醫界的護理師和解了不要讓他們覺得這裡很不溫暖然後都要跑到外面去工作所以我們祭出這個獎金應該是說我們號召醫院來去討論這些獎金的必要性那政府能夠給予什麼一些的資源政府會提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3994.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4020.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那所以18家醫院也從善如流那分別祭出1萬到10萬不等的留任獎金所以我們可以從這些新聞其實都是近期的新聞然後可以看到說醫院其實他慢慢的想用一些鼓勵性的方式把護理人員留下來好那現在這就是我要請教部長一個最重要的一個層次的問題了當然給留任獎金是沒有問題的可是留任獎金的發放時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4023.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4039.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
發放在前或發放在後可能會有不同的糾紛的呈現那我先跟部長說明一下我們舉一個具體的例子例如說有個護理師他承諾在這家醫院任滿12個月然後12個月之後他就能夠取得留任獎金3.6萬這樣子那現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4042.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4063.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
以A情境來說好了這個護理人員他進來上班然後呢他就坐著坐著真的轉眼間坐到12月了好啊坐到12月了嘛12月就能夠有3.6萬的留院獎金所以這時候呢醫院就發3.6萬的留院獎金給他這是A情境那B情境呢是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4064.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4082.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
願意在這邊任滿12個月那當然也要領到3.6萬的獎金但是僱主的發放時間點是在他就職的時候就給他就職只是就職第一天所以意味著你先把錢拿進放在你的口袋了但是未來12個月你要好好在這邊跟我們工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4084.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4112.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那前面那種借其認滿所給予的留任獎金比較沒有爭議但是後面這個預付性的留任獎金會有一個問題什麼問題呢你答應人家做滿12個月但是錢也已經進你的口袋了啊但是呢你做不滿12個月你再11個月就離職了那現在請問放進去你口袋那一筆三萬六你要全部退出來還給雇主還是要部分退出來還給雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4118.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4138.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個委員這其實就我知道可能有一些進到法院的訴訟啦那這可能的確也會有這個法官對這事情比方說也許也許會有些法官會認為是案比例或者是什麼我覺得可能要進入到各不同的個案的我們等一下就看個案等一下就看個案那我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4139.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4157.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
你說進入法官的審判階段我覺得當然程序會進入那邊但是前提就是說你有沒有法律可以給法官認識用法的時候去適用我的第一個問題就是他會進入訴訟訴訟進去之後法官也是依照勞基法第幾條認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4159.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4175.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
認定事實然後適用法律進而去得出一個結論那所以你要有法條你要有法律給法官去適用啊那問題這個就是有我要問你問部長的就是說請問勞基法幾十條當中有沒有一條是在規範留任獎金的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4179.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4204.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
方委員我們上次討委員執教的那個服務年限也是一樣有兩種邏輯第一種邏輯就是給你訓練第二邏輯是說給你一筆簽約金也是在那個條文的範圍裡面也會經過那些條文的來考量有沒有限制的必要然後還有那個金額跟你要返還的金額的比例有沒有相當一樣有那個合理性的必要性的審視一樣那個條文可以適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4206.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4223.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
你的意思 我知道你在講什麼嘛因為那個有兩個情境嘛一個情境就是給訓練費用一個條文就是給補償可是那個是違約金的概念啊那個是違約金的概念那個是違約金的概念可是這個是留任獎金的概念啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4224.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4237.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
各位報告我們有認為這筆錢就是等於說他希望給你的邀約希望你服務滿一定的期限如果你沒有滿足你應該要等於你違約所以那個違約金的概念跟這個服務年限跟這筆錢是類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4240.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4261.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我覺得違約金條款有兩種情境一種是給你錢讓你變成不可替代的人選嘛然後另外一個就是說可能給你一些補助給你一些補助可是那個就是違約金的概念所以你們覺得這裡的留任獎金是違約金的概念所以你們覺得可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4262.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4277.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
如果留任獎金是違約金的概念因為那裡是寫補償或補助兩個字啊那有些人不會聯想到說是一個留任獎金啊所以如果你們真的這樣認為真的可不可以給一個行政函飾你要給一個行政函飾 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4278.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4306.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那個我覺得這是讓我們回去真的這個意思因為這當然已經進入到很多的細節了那甚至一些個案的情境這事情讓我們回去研議一下好不好好沒問題好我們一個月的時間給委員沒有問題好那我先接著當然你們要研議那我這邊的資料也有一些可以讓你們參考的其實要返還全部或返還部分呢實務有兩個見解這兩個見解是分歧的第一個見解呢是這個護理人員他拿了三萬六 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4307.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4324.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
他答應要做兩年他沒有做到兩年那他就要把這三萬六都返還回去即使他已經做了十一個月了就他承諾要做十二個月那即使他已經做了十一個月了但是他這筆三萬六就是要全部的返還這是A見解這是A見解那A見解他 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4326.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4353.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
直接的法律基礎是什麼就是我們的那個民法99條嘛這是附有解除條件的法律行為如果解除條件成就什麼叫解除條件成就就是離職離職這件事發生了所以你跟人家簽的留任獎金已經是無效了那既然無效你在你的口袋當中有3.6萬這筆錢就是一個不當得利所以你要返還給雇主所以全部要返還這個是A見解那B見解的部分呢就是B見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4354.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4361.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
并且部分就是法官觉得说这笔钱了不失为违约金的 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4362.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4386.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
性質不失為違約金的性質好那現在要請護理人員把三萬六罰回去就是一個違約金的概念但是呢整個三萬六要還回去對護理人員來說也不公平因為12個月他已經做了11個月了所以其實他已經履行了十二分之十一的約了他唯一沒有履行的是十二分之一那一塊所以法官就覺得說好 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4387.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4401.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你既然這個我們把它定性成它是一個違約金那違約金條款有酌減的條款就民法252嘛所以他就用252來把他應該還回去的36000進行酌減那酌減到3000那為什麼會從36000要酌減到3000是因為未滿日數的比例就是12分之1所以你只要把36000的12分之1的錢拿出來就可以了所以法官在見解這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4417.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4442.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
B見解法官所持的見解那我當然這邊就有一個案例其實我這個案例是真實的發生的那情境也是一模一樣他這個護理師他就是要承諾任滿12個月然後可以得到留任獎金3.6個月結果他任職11個月他就走了他就走了那現在醫院提告要請他返還那36000那最後法官怎麼判法官就是用B見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4443.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4459.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
畢竟也就是說你拿的那三萬六不思維違約金的性質那如同我剛說的你要叫護理人員把三萬六都拿出來還給醫院好像對護理人員也不公平因為護理人員雖然承諾要做12個月可是他已經做了12分 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4460.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4475.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
支11的期程了嘛對不對所以呢他只剩下12分之1沒做那我們是不是就針對那12分之1請他要把違約金給返還回去所以這個概念呢就會衍生出說就像部長您剛開始講1比例返還那1比例返還的一個背後的思維就來自於這樣的一個邏輯的還有運作所以我這邊有提到說衛生門這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4489.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4503.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個判決等於是告訴我們一個定卯神針的一個概念就是未認滿日數就是依未認滿日數的比例返還那我這邊要給部長一個建議就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4504.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4521.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
到底是不是違約金你們要回去想清楚因為判決說判決也沒有認為他是一個違約金只認為說他不思維違約金不思維違約金有違約金的那種感覺那我覺得法官是不是在認識用法的時候他也沒有一條法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4521.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4535.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
可以好好的來使用貼切的法律百分之百貼切的法律可以來使用所以他就這裡東接一個A概念那裡B接一個法律概念所以我這邊建議說是不是對這種預付性的留任獎金可以來立法那我這邊有個 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4537.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4566.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
草案可以給勞動部參考就是預付性的留任獎金勞工在任職屆滿前離職留任獎金僅需按未任滿日數之比例返還這個就是白紙黑字如果你有白紙黑字你不用再進去法院攻防然後呢你遇到A法官可能他會出現A見解你遇到B法官他可能會出現B見解所以我覺得我們的條文如果明確化可能不管是對勞工的角度或對整個職場運作角度會比較順遂那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4566.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4588.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
就要有相對應的罰則,就是說如果這個情形是要依比例返還,僱主卻要叫你全額返還,那可能也要有一些相對應的罰則那第二個建議就是說,這個概念上禮拜我也跟部長說過了,就是建議過有一個機構與人員勞動契約建議應記載跟不得記載事項的這份文件,那其實如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4589.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4611.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
像這種預付性的留任獎金因為雇主來給你要其實都是要全部他不會宅新人後給你只要什麼十二分之一三千塊那是不是這個因記載事項就要寫說如果是預付性的留任獎金護理人員他在借滿錢離職留任獎金僅需按未滿日數的比例返還好這個部長不知道認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4614.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4635.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
跟委員說明第一個是這個因為這個醫療機構跟相關醫護人員的勞動企業的部分應濟財不得 基財實相這當然是在臥福部處理那我想我們針對剛剛其實委員講的這個議題我們會來做一個研議那剛剛講我們大概一個月的時間我可以跟委員說一個月的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4636.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4643.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那如果當然我們研議的結論是如何,當然就也要送到給衛福部,這邊來去做相關的參考。 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4650.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4675.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我也是到了尾聲了到了尾聲就是想要跟部長這邊再做一個確認第一個就是說可不可以提供給我們獎金因為也許留任獎金目前沒有裁罰機制那如果沒有裁罰機制的話你們有沒有輔導機制因為現在留任獎金似乎是醫院他使出要留任護理人員的一個常用的手段所以我們有一些留任獎金糾紛的資料可以提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4677.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4694.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那個委員現在你剛講的這個輔導部分我覺得我們可能還是要找衛福部這邊來討論沒有資料嗎你說哪個部分的資料 留任獎金糾紛的資料所以我說剛剛跟委員說我們會先先檢視一下目前其實有的一些個案的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4695.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4723.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
跟他的樣態情境包括剛剛文說的可能法官的見解包括他對法官的見解上他有沒有他其實不同的脈絡的條件因為如果只單純看這部分他不一定資訊很完整那把這些相關的判斷以後我們其實做一個研議那這個研議那當然一定是要把這個這樣子的研議的我們的判斷跟思考要送到要給衛福部這邊做參考那包括後面講的輔導也什麼的是不是應該我認為都要找衛福部一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4724.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4748.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
沒有問題就是建立跨部會的平台才能有效率的解決問題那第二點您剛也提到了就是那個關於應記載跟不得記載事項我想這個也是要找衛福部來一起來確認然後勞基法我建議能夠有一條修法但你們要待會去研議那我再進一步的講說如果真的你們覺得用法律的層次來把這件事講清楚沒那麼快 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4749.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4765.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
沒那麼快短期目標是不是先給個行政函式那當然你要一步到位直接就把法修好我覺得我也樂觀其成那可如果沒有辦法一步到位還要再那個慢慢的去思考那是不是短過渡期間短期目標是不是有一個行政函式這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4765.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4792.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我自己是認為剛才就委員剛才講的話我們應該在這些個案去做一點盤整梳理以後我也認為應該要給一個比較穩定的見解那這個穩定的見解要用哪些方式這部分我們可以再來看但是我也覺得有一個相對穩定的見解那對於讓我們的醫護人員跟這個醫療院所其實比較有一個明確的方向怎麼來去思考跟盤整我覺得這也是會比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4793.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4803.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好好好謝謝部長那我們就一個月後就等待您的這個回覆謝謝好謝謝邱慧如委員發言接下來請王玉銘委員發言謝謝主席我們有請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4823.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4833.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
部長好部長今天有關於強迫勞動的議題是非常的重要因為大家知道美國301條款他已經開始啟動調查我們台灣其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4836.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4844.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
要被調查的國家另外一個在歐盟裡面我們可以看到他禁止強迫勞動產品上市的規章也即將要上路所以強迫勞動不僅是關乎到我們移工人權的議題也涉及到我們的企業將來這些產品可不可以在美國跟歐盟繼續的擴展他們的通路那這當中我們今天看到行政院今天即將 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4863.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4867.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
要審議通過這個救福法這是勞動部提出來的列為討論案列為討論案嗎 會通過嗎 應該會吧現在在開行政院會 但是列為討論案好 如果今天行政院這一個法案通過之後第一個問題我要請教部長的就是因為根據ILO它的強迫勞動指標有11項那你這一次的修法在這11項當中你可以改善的是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4893.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4906.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
有幾項 按照行政院你們現在送出來的版本這次行政院的版本主要是針對留置證件的這一項所以是11項之一只有一項這次是針對留置證件的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4907.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4923.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那太少了吧11項只改善一項那請問我們這樣子對於美國的301條款我們他如果啟動調查的話11項我們只有針對那個身份證扣留相關證件扣留這一項另外那10項怎麼辦一樣違反嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4925.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4950.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
跟委員說你並不是這樣子的其實它的11項裡面其實我們也都有梳理它其實有對應相關的我們目前既有的法規那有一些比方對應救福法有一些是對應勞基法比方工時的問題對應的是勞基法那可能有一些救福法也會有一些是性供法好那我問你你全部盤點包括今天行政院要通過的這違反的11這重要的關鍵指標這11項你可以改善幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4951.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4972.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我先跟委員說明我們自己在相關的法規盤點之後我們認為在法規強度上面確實有改善的必要的有幾個第一個就是剛才講到留置證件的部分那再來一個就是關於抵債勞務的部分抵債勞務有在這次的修法裡面嗎抵債勞務沒有這次修法那為什麼不放進去因為抵債勞務這部分我們跟美方的承諾是承諾三年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4974.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4994.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
會針對這個招募費的部分在製造業跟餘老業會要來以法規的方式來修訂所以美方有同意我們三年內改善三年內不追究嗎但是如果有的話為什麼這一次巨大還是發生這麼嚴重的他的這個產品被扣留的事根本說明第一個一個部分是個案一個部分是同案 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4994.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5015.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那巨大的部分當然巨大公司其實這段時間他也很積極的改善那我們當然政府的部分我們是針對通案的部分來進行所以剛才講的三年內要來以法規禁止向移工收取招募費跟相關費用這部分尤其是在製造業跟漁勞業的部分這是我們跟美方討論好有共識的承諾事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5016.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5031.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那這個為什麼你的速度沒有辦法再加快因為這一個禁止招募費這一個項目抵債勞務事實上是IO它在強迫勞動禁止強迫勞動裡面非常關鍵的一個我給這個部長看一個數據這個是國際調查的記者他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5036.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5055.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
調查的 這個你們可以回應2019年它的調查它顯示大概有高達66.7%的移工需要借貸支付仲介費這個部分第一個我請教勞動部 你有沒有最新的調查這個數據有沒有下降第二個如果情況是這麼嚴重的話事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5058.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5078.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個禁止招募費應該是非常關鍵的為什麼不要在這一次的修法裡面 既然又要修了我覺得為什麼不要直接把它放進去一併來處理跟我們說明的確在我們的知音裡面就是二月剛出爐的知音裡面其實我們認為抵債務是很關鍵的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5079.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5107.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那確實現在的聘僱模式其實是台灣從90年代開放移工聘僱以來其實累積下來的一個聘僱的模式那我也跟委員坦承因為確實台灣其實大概有九成的移工的聘僱其實是在中小企業所以我們第一個我們是認同這個方向必須改善可是也因為這裡面其實涉及到真的蠻多的中小企業那要讓中小企業可能會需要讓他們有一點調適期 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5109.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5125.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以我並不是三年後才來處理是我們現在從指引到宣導甚至各種制度上面包括接下來的仲介評鑑都必須相關的修訂把這個聘僱的模式就公平招募聘僱的模式一步一步的去引導比較朝向現在國際上面要求的狀況好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5126.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5149.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這個其實已經到了關鍵時刻了你剛剛特別提到評鑑我就要問你那這個你的評鑑制度你要改哪一些關鍵性的內容因為如果你對於這些人力中介公司你在評鑑上面你沒有辦法有一個好的鑑別力你沒有一個好的強制性的評鑑指標事實上你不會有任何改變的是 所以我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5150.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5179.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
評鑑對於人力重建的評鑑所以你的重點你要改變哪些包括要把你如果今天回答不出來我希望你們就是把一個報告給你可不可以重點告訴大家可以可以就是我們要把公平招募的概念放到變成是其中的評鑑指標甚至要讓它那你現在持續你沒有禁止招募費啊你這邊會有衝突的你知道嗎跟文說明第一個事情是因為法規的禁止我剛才說三年要處理這件事情對那你評鑑要先行嗎評鑑當然要先改 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5180.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5199.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好所以就是說如果有這個高額招募費的高額仲介費的他就不可能成為是A級的人力仲介公司我們現在在這個評鑑裡面當然現在我們還在細部上面去做這些評估跟規劃可是評鑑的確一定不可能是三年後這評鑑一定是好你預計什麼時候上路你請修正的這個評鑑制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5203.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5222.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們現在評鑑的內容我們現在還在研議這部分其實發展組很密切在研議但我們也希望能夠盡快然後哪一些評鑑能夠讓公平招募在評鑑裡面具有鑑別性這是重點那你預計什麼時候 要個期程吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5223.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5238.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們是至少是希望今年我們可以處理然後明年是不是可以上路明年正式上路今年修改指標明年正式上路我們待會我們現在在研議這個相關的指標好我希望這一個事情你如果沒有做一個關鍵性的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5240.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5269.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
事實上這些現象是不會消失的因為修法速度慢那你如果要憑鑒先行你就要有一個強制的指標接下來我要問你就是你另外一個提到就是職聘職聘的部分也是現在一個很大的問題事實上我們在講這一些大額的仲介費等等有另外一個你可以幫中小企業聘的管道就是職聘制度你怎麼讓它更便利化你怎麼讓這一些職聘可以省下一方面移工省下費用一方面雇主這邊也一樣可以省下費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5270.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5293.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
但是我看到你現在的這個職聘制度你現在有三大問題第一個就是你的程序是非常繁瑣的有很多民眾他也想要自己聘但是程序繁瑣他有的只是勾錯欄位就被推薦他哪有那個美國時間就是一直去跑你的職聘中心然後跑到一半之後放棄了然後還是回頭找仲介公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5294.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5323.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個程序繁瑣的問題我覺得你們到現在沒有改善第二個執聘服務中心過去其實從九處然後縮減到成一處然後你再從去年到今年再增加到變三處這個是一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題你整個行政的程序沒有改善你沒有一個更友善的更便捷的措施所以你的量就很少量很少你回過頭來你就是裁測了這一些執聘服務中心然後又更不便利了所以又更少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5324.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5352.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那這個就是一個惡性循環啊就變成現在這樣一個情況所以你的職聘比例現在非常的低啊你現在整體的比例你企業的部分不到3%吧根本說明第一個齁其實在強化職聘裡面是我們現在一個非常重要的工作目標那這裡面其中應該有幾個做法第一個部分是要把職聘的服務中心的這個個數的這個數目給增加你要增加到多少過去是9處 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5352.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5380.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
接下來到中部跟南部也會設但更重要的部分其實是剛剛委員其實有講到行政很煩我們目前其實也在檢討因為我們有很多在聘僱流程裡面的要求跟行政上面的關卡點我們也希望能夠把它給簡化那這個簡化的部分我們也正在跟相關部會正在談因為裡面比方有些部長有我提醒你因為你上任部長之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5382.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5397.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
委員會曾經就去參觀過你們職聘中心當時也有要求行政流程應該要再更便捷他們也說好啊好到現在你現在接了部長之後還是很繁瑣所以你們這個改變的速度非常的緩慢跟我說明齁其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5400.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5420.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
關於整個聘僱流程的簡化其實現在番薯是非常非常大量在檢討中裡面的功像其實是蠻多的概念就是像剛剛委員說的一樣這也是大家在講的當他的程序很繁瑣的時候僱主要自己來辦的時候他遇到的行政成本就會很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5422.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5443.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那所以這裡面會有幾個部分剛才講說執聘的點要增加再來是流程要簡化再來一個部分也很重要因為執聘他會要談的是國對國的這個選工所以我們其實也要針對國對國的選工來增加跟來源國的商議希望能夠在國對國的選工裡面來源國給的這個這個勞動的這個移工的人數的供給希望能夠更穩定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5449.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5471.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這也是為什麼我們其實在今年的公務預算裡面其實有編列演覽中心是跨國演覽中心就是希望有更多可以跟來源國來源母國談國對國的這個供應的點很好啊要去做可是跟我們說明這部分我們其實編列相關預算需要預算的通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5473.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5500.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
會 預算一定會通過 這個你放心好不好但是重點是你們做不出來到底那個流程應該要怎麼簡化怎麼會開會討論了兩年多了還是檢討不出來 這個是到底問題在哪裡這個點要增加 流程要簡化國對國的這樣子的因為你們昨天才出了一個新聞稿我覺得很好啊你告訴民眾說自己去直拼可以省兩萬六 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5501.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5524.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
重點是今天行政程序繁瑣他花的成本可能不止兩萬六但是重點是花了不止兩萬六的成本之後還不一定辦得成這個才是問題好不好所以今天我希望你們這一套的檢討執聘我非常的贊成往這個方向去做但是你們的成效不彰我希望你們可以有一個檢討那你這個行政程序的檢討什麼時候要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5527.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5545.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
有一個新的便捷的讓民眾很有感的就是我可以透過職聘找到我需要的外籍移工跟文說我們其實目前也在評估時程因為有些部分比較 因為其實它的工項蠻多的有些部分可以比較快有些部分可能還要多一點時間沒關係你給外界一個時間我們來監督你嘛 你預計什麼時候可以把這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5550.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5568.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
修改過後的流程然後送給委員會我跟委員我們看能不能在三個月內然後三個月內把其實相關在做這個部分強化跟改進的我們的一些思考跟評估那送到委員會這邊來可是實際的法規修訂其實會當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5571.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5589.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
就是還需要一點過程我認為這件事情很重要那如果部長你有魄力想要去做的話委員會這邊一定是支持的好不好就怕你們沒有沒有魄力而且也沒有很有效率的提出一個可改善的方案那三個月後就送到委員會好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5608.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5615.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
謝謝主席部長可以先喝個水 我等助理用一下這個簡報好那我們先請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5628.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5647.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
廖長好部長好辛苦了今天討論這個議題真的很重要那我想國際接軌的部分當然包含到有關於相關的人權啦或者對等啦我想這些都是值得討論的以及與時俱進到底我們應該怎麼去調整我們的制度所以部長我是想要先請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5648.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5660.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
現在這個外籍移工被保險人申請他的家屬死亡幾戶勞保局一年大概核付了多少件那退件率是多少請問部長知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5667.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5680.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
報告委員 跟委員這邊說明那以近5年的外籍被保險人來請領保保的一個加持死亡級服務 以114年來看 我們全體被保險人請領件數是14萬2000多件那其中外籍是9400多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5684.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5700.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我這邊看到我們去查你們的資料你們從107年到114年的6月外籍被保險人家屬死亡幾戶也就是說他來這裡工作他的家屬在他的國家死亡了我們總共給付了6.1萬件那金額是51.1億元 對吧這個是你們的數據然後佔外籍被保險人總給付的75% |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5710.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5725.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那本國的勞工同一比例只有49%所以部長75%也就是四分之三的外籍給付都集中在這一項這代表說這個制度其實已經有出現給付結構明顯偏移的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5726.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5748.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那在這個勞保基金每年要撥補一千多億的前提之下其實現在這樣子的制度產生了一個問題叫做在台繳費全球提領的設計這就已經觸及到分配正義的核心問題所以我要再問那請問他提出這些申請的時候你們外館的驗證呢是程序審查還是實質審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5750.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5756.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個勞保局有沒有能力確認這一切死亡證明的內容完全屬實請問有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5758.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5779.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
跟委員說明其實因為其實現在這個因為不管是本國人或外國人都必須要投保勞保對那因為投保勞保所以他會有他的一些權力跟義務上面的狀況所以的確因為現在除了家事移工以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5780.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5804.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
其他的產業移工都是必須要投保勞保的所以投保勞保裡面其中一個給付的項目就是家屬死亡的給付項目這並不是所以我想要問我剛剛就問了我的問題部長沒有回答我我說你們是程序審查還是實質審查這部分勞保局有沒有完全有能力可以確認跨國的這些死亡證明內容完全屬實呢有沒有辦法因為這個後面的問題我會一一跟你討論跟人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5805.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5833.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
就我知道勞保局在這方面的審查他是需要靠我們駐外單位來去驗證他相關的死亡證明的對所以其實不容易審查事實上是這樣子的所以接下來就會討論到你剛剛說到的這個基於我們剛剛討論基於不管是普世價值或關懷人權我相信制度讓他們可以領我也不反對但是你怎麼消明相對的剝奪感以及觸及這個分配正義的問題所以剛剛你有提到產業產業類的移工是強制勞保 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5834.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5856.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
對不對那你剛才說家事類是不強制所以結果就發生了一件事喔移工從弱勢家庭跑去工廠那工廠有勞保而且他還可以領家屬死亡給付薪水又相對高所以這就是現在普遍上講說造成喜功的一個原因之一喔那弱勢家庭本身就有經濟壓力而且還要面對移工被搶走政府雖然免了兩千元的安定費喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5857.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5877.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
但勞保費的問題是完全沒有解決到所以剛剛你討論到講到這個問題也導致這個制度的設計也有可能讓這個資源豐厚的企業從弱勢家庭中搶人其實之前你們也一直很擔心類似的事情所以是不是應該要研議讓勞保給付有不同的選項讓這個負擔沉重的家庭有喘息空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5878.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5898.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
跟委員說明如果按照委員剛才講的邏輯裡面就是兩個做法一個做法是如果按照委員剛才說的邏輯因為家事移工他這個因為企業的移工他有勞保所以他條件比較好所以雇儲網那種地方所以委員是贊成也贊成家事移工要保勞保嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5899.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5919.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我是要一步一步跟你討論這個制度本身出現的問題所以我的意思是說我剛剛講說因為他保了勞保所以導致他什麼他的家屬如果他的家屬不在台灣也沒有在台灣工作他在他的國家死亡了這個在台灣工作的勞工他可以領到家屬給付所以今天的問題就是他因為擁有了這個優越的比較優越的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5920.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5937.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以你在這個制度上設計就導致他可能會這樣子偏移所以我剛剛也第一題就講了75%他在整個支付裡面他佔的75%是來自於這個家屬給付所以部長我覺得你可能有點搞不清楚我現在到底要表達的議題是什麼委員的資訊不是很精準我請我們局長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5939.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5964.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
跟委員做報告就是在勞保是一個綜合保險所以他包含剛才委員提到的死亡給付裡面有家屬死亡給付也有本人死亡給付那其實他還有絕大部分的給付是生育傷病老年那剛才提到的我就是要跟你討論家屬這個死亡給付的部分剛剛跟委員報告剛才75%可能在那一篇報導裡面的相關數字裡面他沒有把老年給付生育責任放進去所以我現在要跟你進一步討論跟你說好 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5965.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5988.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那我就問你國保跟勞保同為社保你剛剛講社保其實他權益也是天差地遠那你剛剛講到的這些可能外籍移工他來到台灣他工作了我們覺得他對台灣貢獻我們應該對於他要有相關的保險這個沒有問題但是這個簡單的問題就是國民年金有300多萬人被保險人家庭主婦代業者他們父母配偶死亡的時候請問我們國保有給他們相關的給付嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5991.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6013.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這些被保險人家屬他死亡的時候有沒有跟我也說明第一個這邊沒有可是我們現在比較的標準其實是應該同時都在勞保裡面去比較所以這是有一個我剛剛講到這個東西就是有分配這一個問題因為勞保是他也要付勞保的勞保去比較對不對好我們就下一步來看你剛有說公平的問題嘛所以我要跟你說其實這不是這是台灣現在設計這個制度上真的出現的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6014.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6031.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
像你如果說美國好了美國他的social security對於他的外國人他其實有除了他有credit的門檻的限制之外他還要加五年的居住要求但是台灣呢其實一公若你一入境加保了他隔天他的家屬在他的國家死亡了他就可以申請三個月的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6032.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6057.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
補助那他連一天的等待期都沒有所以我要講的事情是這個問題現在的制度設計是有問題的所以我不是說要歧視誰是最起碼是不是應該要給一個設定一個相關的門檻和投保最低的期間這是美國的設計那再來所以我希望你們可以去研議這個部分的可行性因為你說要統一可是其實我等一下再跟你講統一的問題呢你去看其他的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6058.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6078.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
國際的比較,其實事實上全世界在這樣子的制度裡面,我想要跟你說,我想要問你,印尼的BPJS有沒有被保險人家屬死亡的補助?有沒有?跟委員說明,這部分當然我們可以來去查證相關資料,但是我想跟委員說明,我想要跟你說明的是,先說明你剛才講的部分, |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6081.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6084.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
第一個其實在我們的資料裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6089.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6116.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
外國的被保險人他其實個人負擔的勞保的保費一年在114年的話是57.8億我想要跟你說你想要表達的是 我不知道你想要表達什麼你想要表達的是說他其實有付出所以他有拿到這個但是我要跟你講的是你這樣子的給付我都相信你可以把這給付可以放在真正被保險的這個勞工身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6116.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6133.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
而不是放在這個你可能完全沒有辦法查核而且呢也其他國家也沒有這樣子制度的給付上面我要跟你表達如果委員這樣說的意思的話就變成說是要把外籍的移工從我們的社會保險制度裡面把它給排除嗎你這個部分你應該要參考其他國際的案例我現在就要講給你聽啊所以我的意思是說委員主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6135.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6164.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
在我們的產業移工裡面我覺得你應該要回去研議一下因為印尼沒有菲律賓沒有我們都有跟他如果說要對等接軌國際的話我剛剛講的這些都是國際的案例第一個美國也沒有這樣子的這麼開放的規定第二個你跟印尼印尼也沒有菲律賓沒有越南沒有新加坡沒有德國也沒有所以我跟你講這個你應該要回去研議一下你覺得我們的社會保險制度裡面勞保制度裡面要不要把外籍的移工直接給排除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6164.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6171.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我沒有說要直接排除喔我說你應該嚴厲讓他讓他現在的這個幾父放到給這個勞工身上所以我現在要講給你聽喔我查了主要的幾個這個我們的來源國的社保制度我剛剛講這幾個都沒有都沒有一個所謂的勞工本人死亡然後幾父家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6181.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6204.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
沒有這個通常是這樣子勞工本人死亡幾戶家屬沒有問題但是沒有任何一個國家是勞工的家屬死亡你幾戶勞工的設計這個移工的部分所以新加坡我跟你講新加坡2003年的時候他也把這個移工排出他的CPF之外他2024年的時候關閉所有非公民帳戶但是但是我要強調的我們尊重而且我們也感謝他對台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6205.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6228.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個貢獻所以他是用了WICA保障這個工商那我跟你講歐盟呢他的EESSI的系統他有32國的電子查核但是對於第三國的勞工還是有限制所以部長我跟你講我現在不是跟你吵架我跟你說這個制度現在是有問題而且值得檢討全世界只有台灣你在沒有所謂的涉案協定沒有電子查核系統的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6228.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6255.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
你單方面的讓外籍移工跨境請領家屬的死亡給付我就要問你我剛剛說要對等嘛那請問國與國的互惠在哪裡如果我們今天我們的這個台灣的國民他在譬如說他在印尼他在新加坡或者他在其他國家他工作了那他的家屬在台灣死亡了請問那些國家有沒有給我這樣的給我們這樣的給付呢我要講的是這個根文說明希望委員可以讓我有時間第一個你剛才講 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6257.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6280.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
應該講的是因為我們的勞保制度裡面就是有家屬的死亡給付因為外國人也加入在這個勞保制度裡面他們也要繳保費所以我們也要有負擔所以部長請你好好看一下我今天叫你回去研議請你們去研究如果你都還沒研議和研究的情況之下不要用這種方式來溝通不是我剛剛講的說讓我說完可以嗎可以你說第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6281.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6293.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
除非今天要設計的是在因為你剛才講到的外國的保險的制度社會保險制度要去確認你剛才說外國的勞工並沒有家屬給付可是他是不是本國也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6294.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6312.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以他其實是你同時在這個保險制度裡面因為本國人跟外國人都加入進去所以他原本這個本國人也沒有加數幾副我就給你看這個新加坡的案例嘛好不好新加坡他的CPF從1987年逐步限縮外籍移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6313.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6329.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
2003年完全排除而且2024年也關閉所有非公民帳戶所以你剛剛講的問題我現在已經回答你了但是他同時有用這個WICA來保障工商讓僱主去買保險那他工商的死亡最高賠償也是很高的所以邏輯很清楚邏輯很清楚部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6330.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6345.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
工商保障由雇主負責社會福利留給本國國民然後資源要精準使用保障真正該被保障的而不是現在整個結構偏移你把很多的這個移工他可能申請的補助裡面很大量的是他的家屬在 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6346.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6370.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
該國過世的時候申請了給付文人家屬典容給付不是社會福利它是社會保險但是你現在的這個社保它不是社會福利它是因為它有繳保費所以我要講啦你的社保就應該是社保嘛你要讓它的社會福利真正用在精準使用的地方所以你的社會福利應該真正是要留給國內的公民那這個社會福利你剛剛所謂的社保這樣子的福利它這樣子的制度已經變得有點像福利的一種文人社會保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6371.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6394.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
跟社會福利是不一樣的當然是不一樣社會保險跟社會福利不一樣可是你這條的規定在這裡看起來是社會保險就是已經不夠精準了我要跟你講邏輯很清楚工商保障這個人真正這個勞工真正在台灣工作的他有任何的受傷他有任何的不確定性我們都支持給他更好的保障好 但是如果台灣家屬試試看你講的新加坡的CPF是不是社會保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6395.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6409.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以我跟你沒有他就是社會保險的一種沒有錯啊所以我要跟你講的我要跟你講的就是明明就已經有這麼多國家案例然後你還是要硬扯你都不好好的去研究你就回去跟我說你好好的研究一下好不好新加坡的CPF並不是社會保險我剛剛講的美國也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6411.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6426.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
還有美國的社會保障所以我的意思是說今天我們今天已經跟你講了很多國家沒有這樣子的我們今天要討論社會保險還是要討論社會福利所以我跟你說這個制度的福利的確如果是社會保險部長它如果是它如果這個是有繳交保費的話我們在討論的是它就有繳交保費裡面的權利義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6429.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6455.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
來不及講 我們在討論的事情是那你就回答我 你就回答我假設我們的勞工我們到了其他國家我們也去做了這個所謂的相關的投保或是相關的這個工作那結果我們的臺灣勞工的家屬他在臺灣死亡了那個國家會不會支付給他這個所謂的資料但是那個國家他可能他原本說有 有沒有家屬死亡給付啊來 部長你回答有或沒有就好不是 委員所以我們要跟你講的是什麼委員你要去檢討這個你把概念弄對當然概念是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6458.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6481.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我概念我要跟你講的就是這樣這個制度本身它已經有一個設計的問題存在你應該是可以去檢討說它這個部分應該怎麼樣把它獨立出來而且究竟公不公平或者或者你應該把這件事情去討論你跟另外一個國家在簽訂這些關係的時候說這個是不是我們應該要互相互相對等的情況之下來做這件事情部長我要跟你講的就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6482.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6503.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好不好 我已經提了這麼多國家的案子你可以回去好好的研議一下你可以請你們的同仁跟我們不曉得的話因為我跟委員說我們會回去研議那我們回去研議的時候把剛剛講到的各種制度它是屬於社會福利對是屬於社會保險所以我請這部分我們都要去確認清楚我們三個很明確的第一個30天內請你們給我們外籍家屬死亡給付推薦的統計報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6505.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6532.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好然後另外一個是三個月內你們所謂勞保跨境給付法規的影響評估就像我剛提的我剛是告訴你其他國家都沒有這樣子的狀況那我們呢我們是不是有需要調整的地方而且把這個資源精準使用保障該被保障的人這是第二個要求第三個你們在半年內應該也可以啟動所謂勞動力輸出國你們這個社安資訊交換的談判因為我剛說了你剛自己也回答不太出來你可能需要社會單位去確認這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6534.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6551.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這些這個死亡的證明是不是真的是精準的這都是現在制度出現的問題本席提供給你一個參考的政策方向的意見好不好跟我們說明第一個我們可以來確認比方說如果勞工在外國他的家屬死亡的話相關的證件的驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6552.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6561.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
是不是能夠做到更精準所以我這三件事在這裡給你我們能夠做到更精準這部分我們可以來研議這件事情你剛剛已經講了我只是補充說你讓我說完嗎第一個我說對於這些相關的證明文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6571.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6586.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
的驗證是否夠精準這事情我們可以跟駐外單位來去研議怎麼讓這事情能夠更精準不要有好像大家覺得資訊上面無法確認的狀況我覺得這部分我們可以來研議第二個維根跟委員說對各國不同的社會保險制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6587.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6607.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
不同社會保險制度下面那這些相關的給付那我們也可以來研議各種情形的狀況我們也可以把這個資料再整理給委員那在這個資料的前提下面第一個我們也需要認清楚每個制度它到底是屬於社會福利還是屬於社會保險因為如果是社會保險的話它的權利是來自於它有繳保費 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6609.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6624.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
如果要把一個權利那第一個可能會涉及到修法第二個是他的權利其實來自他的繳保費所以這是社會保險但如果社會福利就不用所以我們要先弄清楚每一個在我們剛剛所提到的制度是社會福利還是社會保險這是不同的狀況這個社會保險走到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6627.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6643.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我剛剛也點出很多問題你自己也承認說你要回去檢討一下這個驗證到底精不精準然後其他國家的比較所以我要跟你講就是說我剛剛把所有的狀況點出來我並不是為了跟你吵架我要跟你講這個是現在正在發生的這些事情都是現在正在發生的事所以請你們回去研議我們的要求三件事就是這三件事請你答應回去研議第一個30天內給我們給我本辦公室外籍家屬死亡的幾副推薦統計報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6657.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6678.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
第二個三個月內你們這個勞保跨境給付的法規影響評估我們剛剛講到的那些問題第三個就是半年內你跟這個啟動勞動力輸出國社安資訊交換的談判這個社安資訊就是我剛剛說的你的那些你說是不是找住外單位把它的資料驗證更精準所以我的要求很清楚那也跟我剛剛的質詢內容相呼應謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6680.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6699.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好謝謝廖偉祥委員發言待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後我們要休息十分鐘現在請林淑芬委員發言好謝謝主席是不是還是繼續請我們這個洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6708.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6725.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
部長我們在今年2月已經跟美國簽訂了這個台美對等貿易協定所謂的ART但是呢3月的時候呢美國在3月11號也宣布啟動301條款的調查但在ART裡面我們就已經承諾了你剛剛一直不斷的跟大家講的3年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6727.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6744.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
要這個解決移工付費的這一個問題嘛那既然美國要求貿易夥伴要共同禁止進口強迫勞動製品已經是既定的和持續的推展的政策那你一直講三年三年在這裡我要提醒你不是三年是剩不到兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6746.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6750.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
為什麼呢因為歐盟的禁止強迫勞動產品上市規章它將會在2027年的12月要實施2027年的12月離現在不到兩年所以我要提醒你時間不是三年是不到兩年在這種狀況裡面台灣作為一個極度仰賴出口的經濟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6769.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6786.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
然後移工的遭遇強迫勞動的這個問題也長年的在國際上被點名不管是移工的或者是不當的仲介費的或者是其他議題的那我想就是說我們恐怕經不起怠慢這樣的一股趨勢所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6790.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6794.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我要再提醒你就是我們對美國的出口比重從114年看起來我們已經是最大的出口市場對美國的出超已經達到1500億美元又刷新了紀錄而財政部在114年我國進出口的貿易概況講說美國是我國第一大出口國特別是人工 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6813.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6819.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
智慧熱潮帶動下來資通訊還有視聽產品的輸出總金額大概1983億美元這個連續9年正成長那對歐洲出口413億美元年增率也將近7%都是資通訊產品然後電子零組件還有機械 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6834.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6852.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那這個大家都知道這個對我們來講很重要不到兩年的時間可是我們再看看我們的慘痛的經驗就是巨大巨大 自行車它因為涉及強迫勞動我們都知道說這個事情發生到現在也已經去年九月到現在也很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6853.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6875.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那他們呢 有派集團代表去跟這個CPB就是美國海關和邊境保護局正式會面那也委託國際第三方平和的機構展開查核作業範圍包括了這個員工的訪談 文件的檢視工廠和宿舍的實地和平內容還包括工作環境和生活設施的整體檢視而且在12月1號就完成了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6879.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6903.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
巨大在去年的12月1號就完成將所有限職的外籍移工的所有的買工費通通還反還給移工等於是雇主就幫所有的工廠裡面的外籍移工通通買單的仲介費啦但是呢到12月1號這樣做完以後到現在請問他解除禁令了東西出關了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6905.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6920.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
現在還沒還沒還沒沒那麼簡單所以我在這裡是說我們我去年10月也諮詢暫扣令對企業來講是非常致命的他所有錢都付了所有的狀況都改善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6921.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6941.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
但是歷經了數個月有的人還歷經數年才得以解除這個禁令而我們的法規你剛剛講說我們要改了大概你認為就是這個戰扣文件然後還有這個不當的仲介費所以等一下行政院會就會通過這個救福法的這個修正案對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6943.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6957.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這是真的其中一項對但我現在在跟你講RBARBA並不是只有這樣子不是那11項指標而已其實我們要開始意識到零付費絕對是國際趨勢RBA |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6960.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6973.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
最早就像全球的供應商發布零付費的政策最早是鎖定電子業和科技產業開始要求RBA但現在已經我們不是資通訊產業或者是半導體產業而已現在已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6976.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6990.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
要求擴展到代工的產業包括汽車產業醫療設備包裝加工業凡是國際品牌供應鏈的一環都可能要遵循RBA責任商業聯盟的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6991.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7007.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
它不是一份指標而已,它是一種企業信任跟永續合作的憑證對國際品牌而言,供應商如果沒有辦法通過RBA的集合會被排除在供應鏈之外所以不只是工廠連協力廠商、承攬商、人力重建甚至外籍義工的來源地、母國都必須遵循相關的準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7016.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7040.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以不是本國而已還有外籍移工來源國的母國的制度實務上RBA要求最核心移工不得承擔就業相關費用零付費應有自由選擇工作的權利不得強迫案限制行動這個我們隨時所以今天行政院應該沒有檢討這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7042.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7064.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
跟我們說明其實去年我其實就已經跟RBA的副總裁包括總裁我現在跟你說甚至我們接下來會跟這些國際供應鏈就是國際供應鏈管理的這些商業的集合機制我們也會來跟他們有一些合作我現在跟你講不要講跟他們合作他們的最重視的準則標準應有自由選擇工作的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7066.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7082.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那我們其實也踩到紅線不是只有不當的仲介費不是扣押你的證件而已自由選擇工作的權利這真的是非常大的一個挑戰老實說那我其實在這裡要跟大家還有跟部長你知道大龍企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7084.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7108.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
企業界的標竿他是為全球電燒比刀的產品最大的可能是供應商可能是OEM廠商那主要的客戶就是涵蓋了歐美他是代工的2022年起大龍企業就啟動了零付費政策所以外籍移工來台的時候包括來源母國的仲介費 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7109.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7128.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
包括本地在台灣合法可以收取的台灣業者的仲介費全部都是他們公司負責到目前2025年為止他的母國仲介費支出了1500萬在台灣的仲介服務費每個月大概支出90到100萬每個月那 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7131.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7156.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
絕大多數引進外勞的企業我想他們都不會幫移工付這兩筆費用啦那大龍為什麼要這麼做他其實他是有說他們說他們沒有被規範但他們發現ESG和DEI都是未來趨勢作為供應鏈所以他們希望自律的符合規範那所以這是他們公司的公司治理的這個以人為本的公司的核心那 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7157.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7167.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那其實國際上老實說這個已經刻不容緩我已經跟你講了剛才是不是三年是兩年不到一年多了然後在巨大發生戰擴令以後我們大家都發現事情很嚴重所有的商業都知道事情很嚴重那你們也制定了相關指引工企業參考但是對國際要來打擊這個勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7180.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7192.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這個強迫勞動的壓力我們只有採取你的指引好自願企業自願採行零付費政策我想這個是太難了吧這應該是太難了吧我們不會只有指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7193.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7221.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
不會只有指引 指引是第一步所以並不是三年後我們才來制定法規而是在這段時間裡面從指引 從輔導 從仲介評鑑從相關的某些制度的法規我們都要開始修正我這樣子問你你現在就是一工零付費那請問只要有仲介業生存的一天只要存在著仲介的一天仲介就是依靠 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7223.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7244.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
靠獲利為目標啊 不然他做仲介是要做什麼 做義母的 做好心腸的 做功德的嗎不是 只要仲介業在了一天 就必須要有仲介費不管合法的或是非法的 合法的那一點點能夠讓他們支撐他們的想要嗎 想要嗎老實說啦 他說零付費 那換成誰付費 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7251.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7275.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
可能叫是雇主付費那請問你使用移工的百分之九十都是中小企業主耶有幾個中小企業主有能力像大籠企業這樣子自己付費所以跟文說明我們也是考慮了台灣有很多的企業是中小企業所以剛剛在講到幾個事情我們繼續投時我已經聽你一整個早上了你都沒有面對這個問題來 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7277.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7304.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
當然雇主現在大型的10%的上市櫃公司的這個雇主或是大型企業的雇主他去負擔這個買工費很合理我們也覺得應該是要但是呢他當然會比較有溢價的空間嘛我一次買單這麼多所以你招募合法的成本不合法的不透明的無法合理化的會用也比較可能會被壓縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7307.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7324.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
比較有溢價權啦但合法之應的他作為付費者當然他也可以比較回到透明較合理較接近市場效率的結構所以那中小企業主他的溢價能力就降低了對阿那你要怎麼解決你要怎麼解決你說你要透過仲介評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7332.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7350.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以我們為什麼在這個階段要把職聘的這個做法在制度上面把他給健全跟強化你答對了但你今天的報告裡面都避重就輕啦你講我國內職聘我告訴你你的國內職聘就是一個大問題你的國內職聘現在比例是多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7351.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7356.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
現在不高2.7%你說中小企業的僱主能夠全部買單所有外勞的買工費一個人6000美元嗎三年就要買一次有辦法嗎沒有那我們要仰賴什麼仰賴的是國對國職聘啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7373.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7384.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
人家韓國做得到 日本做得到而你台灣國對國的職聘你要幫中小企業主還要買單這個仲介費 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7385.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7408.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那是不可能的 只有透過國對國執聘才有辦法幫中小企業主去省掉這一筆費用台灣的中小企業主以前啊都cost down他怎麼cost down 就靠了人力成本在下調他的cost down的嘛那你現在說不能cost down 買公費再叫中小企業主買單 他買不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7410.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7425.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
全部包括國內合法的買工費他都買不起大龍每個月要付90萬上百萬的每個月的買工費他都要幫他付台灣有幾個中小企業族有辦法沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7426.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7444.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以現在 你不是在這裡說 我給仲介評鑑仲介評鑑好的仲介 收的仲介費是合理的再怎麼合理 叫雇主都很沉重那怎麼解決 正本清源的解決應該是國對國職聘還有國內達到50% 60% 70%的國內的職聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7451.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7468.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
而你在這裡報告這麼多年了你們從來不設定目標你來告訴我你國對國之並設定目標五千人 一千人連五千人你都沒有設定全台灣八十萬的幾萬的外籍移工台灣製造業我剛剛講RBA喔它不是半導體產業半導體產業製造業的移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7480.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7503.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
用了多少人 剛剛講了48萬人其中電子零組件大概8萬人電腦電子產品業大概2萬人所以高科技的半導體的電子零組件的電子電腦電子產品的大概加起來10萬的移工可是除此之外除此之外大概都中小企業所以這一些中小企業幾十萬的移工他們要怎麼樣去付這些錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7508.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7534.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以他們要怎麼樣去使用你們的國內職聘的體系我現在先講一下你們112年公布移工管理還有運用調查報告在受訪的製造業和營建業的僱主當中已經有72.4%通通都知道政府有職聘服務的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7536.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7551.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
七成多都知道 不是不知道啦但是真正透過職聘中心去聘僱移工的僱主只有 我剛剛講的2.7%大家都知道政府這樣好不好 為什麼來使用只有2.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7554.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7560.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那你問他說 你為什麼沒有去使用 你的原因是什麼他這裡有統計啊 你們自己做的調查第一個 61.8%的雇主說 沒有後續代辦和管理服務第二個 沒有時間親自管理 也60%了第三個 申辦文件太複雜 佔了42.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7580.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7593.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個代表什麼 你們的制度存在 但是遠遠不是市場上主要招募的方式然後你說 我們要增加職聘 國內要多設多少點人家都知道 你再設多少點也沒有用啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7598.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7627.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你說菲律賓海外有一個點你一方面把職聘當成落實零付費原則的一個解方但一方面對他的低使用率視而不見而解決這個低使用率的原因其實我再講難聽一點我也可以說他從以前到現在就是故意給他設計的可敬性很難用 可敬性太低 很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7629.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7652.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
國內的職聘的可進性太低 國外的職聘需以委宜然後呢 反正到最後 就是丟給雇主自己去處理可是保定 在今天這種高度專業分工的社會裡面移工招募 文件作業 跨國媒合 入境安排到後續管理本來就有相當高的行政和實務門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7655.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7680.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
你的可敬性又這麼的差多數的僱主還是會選擇由仲介辦理這不是懶惰和習慣這個是分工和效率的選擇分工和效率的現實問題所以政府你在這裡不是說抽象說我鼓勵職聘啊而是你要正視在仲介制度仍然是主流的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7681.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7710.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你要去切斷移工因招募費用而落入債務束縛甚至是抵債勞動的風險其實是很難的然後呢你要僱主全部買單中小企業90%的外籍移工都中小企業主在聘僱的對他們來講真的很沉重而你的國對國職聘沒有設定目標解決中小企業僱主的沉重的買工費的方法正本清源解決之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7711.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7716.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
就是國對國執聘不管是執內的續聘或是從外國的引入 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7717.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7744.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以 所以呢 沒錯 我們說台北的啦只要仲介存在的一天 他就是要賺錢中小企業啦 是使用 僱主啦 使用仲介這個管道他就是必須換成他買單而到時候 你說兩年 三年到了 時間到了 非買單不可這些中小企業主 馬上就跳起來而你現在應該做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7747.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7764.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
國對國職聘你告訴我你的目標只要設定多少我可以跟我說明在職聘的強化上面其實有幾件事情是必須的你通通都不用告訴我我只要看到你兩個數字第一你國對國職聘你未來一年設定多少人數多少目標比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7765.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7780.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
然後國內的續聘的職聘服務你要設定多高的比例來改進你的2.7%然後三年對美國承諾了三年歐盟的一年半時間所剩不多你在這種狀況裡面要怎麼面對和因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7785.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7803.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
跟委員說明其實職聘最重要的關鍵其實就是必須要簡化我們現在聘僱的程序跟流程當然所以這部分其實現在是我們在強化職聘工作裡面的重中之重就是在這個部分所以這裡面要我們目前在檢討的工項非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7804.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7827.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
沒關係啦 你這個通通都是了 但我是要告訴你們首先你必須在這裡告訴我你們自我期許的目標人數和職聘的比例你的企圖心要把它提高到多少%這才是真正的講真話啦 其他喔其他都是漫長過程啦 反不及急啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7828.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7855.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
跟我的說明第一個所以你在這裡講得很好聽結果最後都是雇主承擔是搞不好啊你的政策上硬是逼雇主吞下去啊中小企業主吞下去所以我們必須要強化職聘所以這些政策工具要先把它檢討到位啊所以我在這裡作為一個立委要問責的就是國家和政府的責任就是國對國職聘和國內續聘的職聘比例要大幅提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7856.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7869.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
而在這裡我要聽到你回答我的是你自己自我設定的目標值和比例是多少你告訴我一個菲律賓海外職聘中心一年是多少人 一年是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7870.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7886.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
跟人說明第一個這裡面當然也牽涉到好你告訴我你們這麼多年的菲律賓海外執聘中心了來這是今年才去不是好沒關係不管你這一這幾個月這一年來聘了多少執聘了多少人進來跟人說明第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7887.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7908.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
在國對國的執聘裡面我們現在非常積極的跟四個來源國在討論MOU所以這也是為什麼昨天其實不要再講MOU我就是問你你自我設定多少目標而且不要忘了我們當然希望提到所有的外勞外籍移工輸出母國是全世界在搶工不是只有台灣而你又開放了外籍幫傭啊你忘了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7916.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7920.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以你不擴大這個需求外國也在搶工 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7922.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7945.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
然後這個是一個機會但是你可以去解決國對國執聘的問題你就告訴我你覺得2026年沒有辦法2026年這個執聘是我們工作裡面的重中之重你的目標要設定多少我們當然希望能夠提高我們希望能夠提高這是我們的重中之重這20年來大家保證都說希望提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7946.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7952.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
可是你到底要提高多少20年講了20年到現在國內殖民還是2.7%叫做提高嗎多少我現在是代替台灣的中小企業主 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7961.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7967.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們幫了移工絕對不能叫最弱勢的移工付這個買工費那老闆要付可是大老闆沒問題中小企業主他們就有問題了那我們可以幫他政府可以幫他們的就是國對國職聘也應該要幫他們的而且人家韓國政府就是這樣子做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7988.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7992.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
外國政府百分之百的在國對國執聘 百分之百台灣我沒有叫你百分之百 因為我們已經開放仲介了嘛人家做生意的就在那裡 要賺錢的人就在那裡了我是叫你 你總是要一步一步往前推進這個國家要一步一步的把責任扛回來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8014.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8031.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
你要設定一個目標值而不是在這裡告訴我們說我的目標是提高廢話提高兩個字叫提高太容易了叫提高這兩個字太容易說出口可是卻沒有辦法看到它兌現而且你是洪森漢你不是其他人對啦好啦就這樣子我知道你也講不出口啦這才是真正的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8046.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8068.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
委員其實最困難的工作我還是要講在這裡面最困難的工作是在於我們要把流程給改善跟簡化那你流程什麼時候要花多久的時間改善完畢跟委員說明人家韓國早就都是透過這個程序所以我們當然現在韓國的流勢他山之石可以攻錯啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8069.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8090.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以委員我們當然是跟韓國我們也在看韓國的制度跟日本的制度他們目前相關的做法我們哪些部分可以納入那我直接就是問你你需要多久的時間改善這個流程讓他的肯定性很高讓一般人直接一般雇主就可以使用啊委員會有一些流程會比較快可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8091.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8101.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
連這個你都沒有辦法清楚的告訴我們連這個你都不敢說我們剛才其實已經有講了三個月內我們會把我們最余流程的檢討的說明提交到委員會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8103.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8125.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
提到委員會來 你對自己都沒有信心說你什麼時候會架構起一套讓僱主可進性非常高 然後讓移工的可進性也很高因為他是要媒合 他要媒合雙方 移工也要進來 僱主也要進來然後要移工的可進性很高 僱主使用的可進性也很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8126.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8147.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
人家韓國就是這麼做嘛我也質詢過你很多次了人家他山之石在那裡可以工作然後問你說你就說最困難的就是其實要把這個媒合的這個系統做好那我問你什麼時候要做好你也不知道不敢保證然後我說你到底要多高的比例我們會在今年把這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8148.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8176.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那很好那國對國的比例這個做好了那我明年就可以問你國對國的比例你的目標是什麼對我們會在今年來把這相關的拼顧的流程的部分給改善現在正在如何如何再檢討就是這個部分好我雖然覺得時間拖很久但我覺得要做了總比不做好了老實說好謝謝好謝謝林書文委員的發言也謝謝部長的答詢現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8798.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8812.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
好 我們繼續開會下一位我們請黃秀芬委員發言謝謝 我們請洪部長來 也請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8824.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8849.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
黃委員好 部長好 今天大家關心的這個外籍移工的這個問題那其實我以彰化這邊為例彰化中小企業是全台灣最多的一個地方所以聘請聘僱這個外籍移工應該也算是非常的多啦那其實我也常聽到一些老闆就在講說那個外籍移工第一個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8849.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8876.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
就是說他們希望能夠有更就剛剛淑芬講的就是說第一個是不是可以不用透過仲介然後直聘這個我相信很多這個地方的這個企業可能有這樣的一個想法那我希望就是說未來讓所有的這個中小企業他們直接這聘僱外籍移工能夠更加的便利直接就可以這個上網直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8878.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8890.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
直接就可以聘到這個外籍移工那另外我想請教就是說目前這個在台灣的這個外籍移工從這個2011年這個38萬多人到2026年的1月這個估計已經到目前為止是86萬人那這個人數是持續在成長那未來我們現在開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8903.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8923.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個家事的這個移工之後我相信應該會再增加這個從86萬應該會再增加搞不好會破百萬也不一定那這其中有一部分可能有十多萬是這個在台灣失聯的這個移工那我想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8924.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8949.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
部長在台灣這個失聯的移工從疫情期間到現在其實是每一年都一直持續在增加當中確實應該地方的人可能都會知道說哪些地方就是有這個失聯移工在那邊工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8950.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8956.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我就覺得很奇怪那既然知道有這樣的一個狀況那失聯移工會衍生的一些問題確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8961.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8981.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
部長你應該也知道失聯移工會碰到的一些狀況一些問題我不知道說為什麼我們政府到現在也不會很強力去解決那另外就是說怎麼樣去解決這麼多的這個失聯移工逃跑移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8982.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9010.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
第一個是不是要改善這個移工的這個工作環境或者是這個工作的待遇或者是整個這個尤其是那個家事移工那是不是整個工作環境也要有所改善能夠減少這樣的一個移工的一個逃跑或者是移工的失聯我不知道說部長你們針對這一部分有沒有做怎樣的一個統計那怎麼樣做一個改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9011.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9036.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
跟有人說明 第一個其實我們是很重視私人移工的問題那我們也必須坦白說這個由內政部的專勤隊那在事後來去做各種的查處那這個在他會有做法好但是我們其實個人認為恐怕我們必須更從源頭的角度來看待這個事情我們為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9038.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9058.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們也認真的認為應該要針對這個目前的公平招募的問題大力推動一個很重要的原因是因為我們確實看到當一個移工他為了來台灣他要來付仲介費問招募費他付的金額越高的時候是 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9059.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9076.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
他失聯的機會就越高當移工因為要來臺灣工作他欠下的債務越多的時候他失聯的比例就越高所以我們的公平招募的推動裡面就是希望要降低移工必須來臺灣付的錢跟他會欠的債務 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9080.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9108.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好那你們怎麼去解決就是說你們既然都知道是這樣的一個狀況那你們怎麼解決就是說這個未還委員會每一年幾乎甚至每個會期都會提到這個外籍移工的相關的問題在委員會這邊討論那我也希望就是說每一次討論都要有一些進度大家關心的議題都要有一些進度那剛剛部長你講的就是說可能仲介他要來台灣這個仲介費 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9110.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9127.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
對一個醫工來講是一個很大的負擔那也許這個仲介費高的話他可能逃跑的機率也會高他變成他要去做其他打工然後做高報酬的這樣的工作的機會會更大這會提高他的失聯率所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9128.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9143.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
降低移工來台的欠債我認為其實也是改善失聯率其中一個非常非常重要的方式我們也聽到一些廠商當他們用公平招募的做法來招募移工以後他們跟我們說移工的失聯率是大幅降低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9144.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9164.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那既然都知道是這個狀況那我們是不是未來會有更多的這個家事移工我們現在不是那個12歲以下就可以聘這個外籍看護嗎那像這樣子的話是不是針對未來進來的這種移工的部分第一個我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9166.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9182.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
仲介費我覺得是一個非常大的每一次他們在講就是說他的第一年就是來台灣的第一年的工作的薪資幾乎就付了他母國的那個仲介費那還不算每個月的這個服務費一千多塊的這個服務費 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9183.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9211.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以我覺得就是說為什麼這麼多委員一直非常在意就是說就是國對國的這個職聘是不是可以慢慢來推動當然這個部長講了有很多的問題目前需要去克服總是要跨出第一步那是不是可以從未來我們現在這個開放的部分你就可以先試著去做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9212.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9241.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
跟委員說明第一個其實這也是為什麼我們認為其實但就像剛才幾位委員講到公平招募的制度在國際上面推動看起來它會對雇主的這個它要雇主負擔的這部分可能會增加一些可是如果綜合的來看的時候它可能可以讓移工的這個相關的人士相對更穩定試驗率會降低這部分其實對雇主也是有幫助的所以我們也在跟雇主很多的雇主在討論這個同樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9242.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9259.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那往前推進所以今天在這個做法上面但從後端他如果失聯發生了以後在移民署這邊他去做各種的查處這部分還是必須做而且不能夠鬆掉但我們也開始要思考更多是在源頭的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9259.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9279.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那源頭部分比方我再舉個例子跟委員說比方說其實像農業移工的失聯率一直是居高不下的所以我們近期也不斷的在跟農業部討論希望農業部跟他相關的這些事業單位應該要來研議一個在源頭管理上面改善失聯的狀況所以我們也因為目前在這狀況所以幾個月跟農業部討論下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9280.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9305.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這一次在農業移工的這個名額的放寬上面農業部來跟我們提所以我們第一次跟他設定了你要降低失聯率作為放寬名額的門檻的做法所以經過了幾個月的討論以後農業部這一次也願意以降低失聯率從原本現在接近可能9點多%分階段來降低失聯率來可以獲取更多的名額那我覺得這對於我們要提供給農業確實農業有缺工的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9308.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9323.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以我們一方面提供名額給農業單位可是另外一方面也要他在這個管理上移工的管理上面要拿出更有效的做法所以這幾件事情相互相承這也是我們希望要從源頭來降低失聯率相關的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9324.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9341.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
好我們希望就是說這個外籍移工的這個問題每一個會期我相信每個會期招委就是每個招委都會排有關移工的這個問題然後我們希望就是說每個會期談的應該都要有一些進度另外就是說我們看到這個美國對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9344.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9370.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
在去年的時候就是有針對我們台灣的那個自行車的製造業可能有做一些針對就是說我們台灣的這個這個自行車的製造業巨大集團那有被認為就是說僱傭的這個移工的工作待遇構成強迫勞動那發布說史上首次對台灣本土的這個戰扣令那這個戰扣令短短三週內巨大還有美利達 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9372.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9400.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這兩個自行車龍頭他們都回應然後並實施新的政策所有的新聘移工的仲介費服務費還有相關的規費都有公司全額負擔那我我想請問的就是說部長這個這個狀況變成說由國外由國外這樣子對我們國內的這個自行車業者這樣子的一個戰扣令之後然後短短三週內就就就把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9401.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9430.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
感覺好像我們原本一直在推動的這個政策還不如人家這樣子的一個戰口令所以我想請教這個部長就是說未來像類似這樣子的一個大廠當然他有辦法去負擔這個我們移工的這個仲介費或服務費或相關的規費那一般的中小企業其實這個大廠底下可能還有一些協力廠商那這些協力廠商未來也需要也需要去做這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9431.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9455.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
去針對這個服務費或者是仲介費去做負擔那我想請教就是說部長針對這一部分中小企業他可能本來他聘僱的他的資金沒有那麼大所以要再去付這樣的一個仲介費確實會有很大的一個負擔所以我想請教部長就是說未來這樣的一個狀況我們勞動部怎麼去協助這些中小企業來解決這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9457.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9480.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
跟委員說明其實目前國際上面我們可以看得到其實在推動公平招募或者是防止強迫勞動這部分我們可以看到有幾個路徑一個路徑大概就像剛剛講到這個美國政府他是用一個海關CPP的做法來去做要求那的確沒有錯比方歐盟可能在2027年的12月他的FLR就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9483.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9499.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
強迫勞動相關的這個商品的管制其實也會他都是用一個區域的公權力量來處理所以我們當然在我們公權上也要有角色但同時有另外一個路徑其實是關於國際上面的供應鏈的一些商業集合的做法所以我們接下來我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9501.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9517.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們也要跟這些國際供應鏈的商業機制的集合我們也應該要跟他們做一些合作所以讓商業機制從國際供應鏈的角度可以切入那勞動部我們也必須從一個公權力或法規的角度來去切入包括在這裡面的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9518.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9547.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
包括剛剛就像委員或者剛剛淑芬我們在談到的職聘的這個問題因為的確會有一些這個企業他們現在看到的這個問題的中心他們希望政府多幫他們政府多提供一些服務不一定一定都非得去找人力仲介但人力仲介還會存在可是我自己也認為政府提供的服務要成為另外一個具可靜性的選項這也是為什麼我們現在必須要把服務的量能提高必須讓流程給簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9548.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9568.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
甚至流程簡化以外也要有更多的部分是由政府來提供直接的服務那以至於到剛剛在講這個後面的這個相關制度上面的調整我說這幾件事情其實都必須多管齊下恐怕不容易只用單一的做法那部長講的那麼多啦總是要有一個進度嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9569.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9586.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
對啊那你們未來要有一些進度不是說在這邊講一講然後我覺得勞動部你們本身自己部裡面的人力可能也要要做這麼多事情那你們目前的人力應該可以去負擔這麼多的工作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9588.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9616.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那當然就是說因為再增加的這些工作那我們也希望有一些進度那我希望就部長因為每次委員會在這邊都會提到不是我們今天講一講之後然後可能又隔了幾個月這個問題又提出來問我們希望就是說下一次你講的時候我們確實是做到什麼樣的程度讓企業可以透過我們國對國的這個職聘然後就可以很容易的聘到這個外籍義工我們希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9617.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9634.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
确实要有一些进度我们刚才在讲说从职营的发布到现在辅导机制跟经济部合作的推动到后面我们会来处理仲介评鉴的问题到职聘的部分我们也会在制度上面做出调整那 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9634.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9650.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
沒有錯這裡面其實對我們組織來說對勞動部組織來說它是一個人力上面會增加的挑戰所以同時我們在這時間其實也正在跟行政院跟人總希望能夠爭取更多的員額能夠協助我們來把我們的行政的量能給擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9651.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9674.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以這裡面會有一些相互的配套目前同步也都在進行我們希望就是說你們要服務的勞工這麼多然後還有外籍移工那外籍移工碰到的問題也非常多希望說能夠在一定的這個時間內趕快把大家期待的這個部分趕快把它完成好不好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言接下來請王振旭委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9685.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9704.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好謝謝主席今天想要針對幾個題目來包括改善強迫勞動相關進度還有引進農業移工精進作為還有精進勞工的結社權以及診所受雇醫師加保權益幾個題目要來跟洪部長討論有請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9714.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9730.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
部長好今天很多委員已經根據我們在所排的主題做了很多的討論不過還是有蠻多問題需要持續來討論跟解決包括第一個就是改善強迫勞動相關的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9735.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9757.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
部長我們首先要討論就是台灣有85萬的這個外籍移工長期陷入了強迫勞動處境的這樣的困境裡面今天已經討論了很多那LGC近期裡面用像鬼一樣工作這樣的主題我們看到就覺得很不舒服的這種主題來形容台灣移工的遭遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9758.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9775.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個報導裡面也揭露有印尼移工來台工作第二年就發生了公安的問題導致他的腳踝嚴重骨折可是還是因為要受困於這個負債累累不敢停工另外也有移工來台之前就支付超過21萬元的仲介費 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9777.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9791.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
沒有任何書面的合約每個月還要應付貸款催繳單等等他裡面寫的是說他想想常常想要逃跑可是沒有地方可以跑這是目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9792.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9815.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這麼多個案的困境應該是我們臺灣這個移工聘僱制度長年累積下來系統性的問題我想這部分部長應該也會同意那臺灣這個國際勞工協會也指出目前這個多數的勞工移工面臨的這些被高額的這個債務綁架的半資源的強迫勞動就包括有超時的加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9816.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9835.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
還有文件收到扣留薪資被扣還有職場霸凌等等這個幾乎每天我想部長也應該體會得到幾乎每天都會發生那去年10月巨大機械軍的射擊強迫這個移工勞動遭到美國發出戰後令的制裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9836.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9866.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好像也還沒有解決所以台灣的人權問題直接就衝擊到我們這個國際供應鏈的信譽所以這邊就有三個問題想要請部長直接來面對跟回答一個就是我們的這個移工零付費的政策的推動進度如何預計什麼時候能夠全面來落實那第二個就是那職聘率如何能夠有效的提升剛剛說了只有2.多個%那有沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9866.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9881.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
相關的進度是否能夠針對自由轉換僱主來開放進行研擬還有政府計畫三年裡面要修法改善移工聘僱的制度那請問修法草案什麼時候可以送到立法院來做後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9886.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9909.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
跟委員說明第一個其實關於這個移工公平招募的制度其實現在我們在處理的做法裡面第一步在2月的時候我們其實已經公佈了指引那現在跟經濟部合作的輔導機制跟宣導目前也正在上路我們大概規劃了20幾場的這個宣導的說明這部分會跟經濟部一起合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9910.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9938.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那後面剛才講到可能會有三年的這個法規的調試期那這的確是因為就像剛才前面幾位已經談到因為台灣的中小企業其實蠻多的而且這邊比例很高所以他們相對於大廠可能會需要給他們一點調試的時間但在這中間並不會什麼都不做所以也包括這個仲介的評鑑必須優化把公平招募的概念把它放到仲介的評鑑裡面這是一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9939.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9959.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
然後也包括剛才在講到的職聘那職聘的做法其實在制度上面確實有很多需要簡化的部分現在法規的檢討也在研議那剛剛我其實有說三個月內我們會把職聘的簡化跟優化的做法拿來提報到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9961.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9984.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
未完委員會來給委員們來做這部分的參閱所以它不會是一個做法它會是一組的做法才有辦法往前推進那因為尤其是其實台灣移工聘僱的這個模式其實已經是累積了三四十年的模式所以它的確在這三四十年裡面也累積出一個結構這結構的確我們現在看到在做法上面是一定需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9985 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10010.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
改善跟調整這是非常明確的方向上是明確的但在節奏跟政策工具上面要組合性的一起來應用是我們了解這個冰凍三時嘛非一日之寒可是如何能夠解凍當然是希望它能夠順利這個部分麻煩部長繼續來處理也繼續來精進那當然我相信所有委員都會很關心這個進度是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10011.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10015.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這部分就麻煩部長繼續來勞心勞力那部長請留步現在過來的這個問題是要針對引進這個農業移工的精進作為可以麻煩這個農業部農民輔導師的黃科長一起來討論其實兩個部會都很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10031.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10052.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們知道這個行政團隊為了要緩解這個農業的缺工還有農業高度的這個室內移工的部分非常非常的努力那也提出了這個分階段增額的方案來讓我們這個農業的這個工作能量可以持續的來符合農民的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10052.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10075.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
有一個現象想要跟兩位官員來交流就是我們根據最新的調查報導發現雖然官方的統計缺工率只有5%事實上應該不止啦差不多30%以上就是我們這個農業在農莽的時期真的是很需要共同來度過這個農莽時期的這個人力的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10076.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10101.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以這代表我們目前的這個統計似乎沒有辦法能夠完整的勾勒出這個農村的真實需求因為我本身我的這個長輩現在還是住在農村他們常常會面臨這樣的困難那這個合法的人力供給跟現場需求有落差的時候當然這個就會出現我們目前全台灣有9.5萬個失聯移工可能就會添補這個真空 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10102.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10130.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那目前有蠻多的報導針對這個問題也了解說這個地方好像形成了製程體系的地下產業鏈或者是產銷鏈這樣的一個目前讓我們很擔心的部分那這個不僅是涉及到勞動管理更關乎我們長期關心這個農業長期的發展所以我們應該來思考或者是如何來精進讓這些勞動力能夠回歸到合法的管理體系裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10131.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10159.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那我剛提到我小時候就是從龍城長大那這個農業生產其實有它的高度的季節性所以我們可以理解說為什麼我們現在制度之下的合法移工真的對農民來講真的是不好用又用不起在農忙的時候呢他可能就是需要天天的去採收就會超時所以容易觸及這個勞基法規定的加班費的上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10161.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10189.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
農閒的時候 人也沒事好走那這些他聘僱過來的移工可能還要固定的這個底薪還有勞健保這個成本對他們來講其實在那個時段他也沒有收入 負擔這個成本其實非常非常的高那農業部呢針對這樣的現象用變形工時啊 這個外產移工當作一個解決的方式似乎無法解決這個困境 這個就是目前我們所能夠理解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10190.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10204.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那怎麼辦才好所以這邊有一個是不是可以從防堵10年來轉向韌性調度的這個可行性來跟兩位討論一下我們能不能夠建議就是政府或者是類機構來擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10206.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10222.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
聘僱的主體作為一個人力調度的中心就是麻煩將來可以討論看看那這個就好像這個類人力的這個派遣的角色由這個中心來負責移工的勞健保住宿還有這個行政的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10223.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10240.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
然後再根據各地的農盲的時程比如說這個採收季節可以跨縣市的資源來做靈活的調派這樣不僅能夠減輕農民的壓力也能夠確保漁工有穩定的工作跟醫療的保障以制度的彈性來降低這個肆虐的誘因所以這個政府如果能夠這樣這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10243.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10258.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
調度比地下的仲介更靈活更有合法更尊嚴的時候相信這個直連率自然就會下降那這部分的想法不知道有沒有機會請一個月裡面來把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10259.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10279.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
由政府來執聘派遣體系的可行性進行初步的評估請教一下我們這個農業部 黃社長 各位委員報告 針對這個季節性問題的部分我們農業部在去年開始我們已經有示範在屏東地區有一個跨區外展調度的一個方式那就是大概以 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10279.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10308.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
以採收季節的這個部分為主體那他在不同季節的採收季來做移動那像現在是四月份的話開始就是芒果的一個採收在仿山仿寮地區那就是做這些移根我們現在就是已經調度到我們仿山仿寮地區去做芒果的一個採收的工作那到了大概六月結束之後我們就會再到了一個香蕉的一個採收的這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10309.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10325.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
調度所以這部分我們去年在屏東部分已經有做這樣子的一個事辦計畫就是說我們除了一般的外展機構像農會合作社他們目前用外展制度來做自行的調度之外我們目前也在做這個事辦計畫那今年我們預計也要再擴展到台南 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10328.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10341.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
還有像高雄這些台中這些區域我們希望讓人力的調度可以更加的一個彈性那這個部分是目前是以農會這邊來做就是依目前現在的一個雇主資格的部分由農會這邊來擔任雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10343.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10366.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那就是像剛剛委員提到像包含勞健保的部分都是由農會這邊來做就是他是雇主所以就是由農會這邊來負責相關的行政作業然後再依據農民的需求登記然後來調度這樣子那我們在這個部分我們也給予一些行政資源的支持對那就是我們目前在做這個跨區外展的一個調度人力運用的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10367.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10379.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 謝謝黃課長的說明所以聽起來聘僱主體就是農會或者是未來如果其他的單位需求的話也可以成立類似的這個聘僱的這個實體來做執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10382.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10396.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
聽起來是這樣的意思是各位報告這個部分我們因為現在是示範期間我們先就是投比較小規模的希望可以建立這樣子的先把這個模式建立起來然後我們再來擴大到其他的那個縣市跟單位來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10397.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10425.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好那不過相關的進度也是還是可以給我們一個報告讓我們來做參考好那謝謝黃科長那黃科長請回座那這部分我相信應該洪部長也非常認同這樣的做法我們期待這樣的做法可以讓我們在這個對於農業的缺工造成實質上的幫助其實各位很聰明因為在院會的時候在立法院院會或行政院會的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10427.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10449.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那個陳俊基部長就坐右邊了所以我其實常常就是在跟他討論這個問題大家兩部要怎麼一起合作來來克服所以很謝謝農業部這次這願意在這次移工的政惡申請裡面然後願意承諾是以試驗率作為一個前提條件的引進這部分也謝謝農業部在這有跨出這樣子一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10449.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10477.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
好 謝謝其外兩部會可以繼續來努力那針對於這個精進勞工結社權的部分簡單的就針對於我國在2026年2月已經跟美方達成了台美對等貿易協定ART的簽署那後續需要做來相關的審議那根據這個文本我國應該在生效日期五年裡面針對勞工結社權的下列四項進行法規的調適那這包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10477.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10499.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
降低中小企業勞工籌組工會門檻還有確保全國性的聯合工會組織沒有最低代表性的門檻要求還有建立選擇或解散工會的適當機制以及罷工等集體行動的適當投票門檻我們也知道降低工會籌組的門檻會涉及到工會的同意權、會務價 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10501.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10517.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
複數工會競爭等配套需要討論事關重大所以社會的溝通就刻不容返所以請部長可以承諾兩點第一點就是協定通過以後勞動部應該儘速啟動修法制社會溝通工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10517.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10537.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
第二點就是協定通過以後請勞動部於三個月內向本委員會就如何安排社會溝通的這個期程規劃與目標提出書面報告這部分跟委員說明其實這個部分就針對傑瑟權在這一次台美的ART裡面的承諾當然是五年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10538.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10565.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那我們目前我們會盡快的來進行因為這個法規上面其實各種的評估跟研究的工作因為這裡面會牽涉到不只是解釋權的門檻包括有這個工會相關的一些權利那怎麼樣去做評估跟設計所以前面會先有一段是法規的研究委託的部分我們會先進行到後面當然還會有包括利害關係團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10567.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10586.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
包括勞方包括資方把大家的意見來去做各種彙整跟收集所以的確會需要一些時間但有些部分也許假設比較快的部分我們可以儘快一點來進行可是這的確會涉及到這其實是一個蠻大的制度上面的調整法規的調整所以它會有一個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10588.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10605.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以至少我們希望能夠三個月裡面就開始啟動這個啟程的規劃跟目標這部分就請部長能夠給我們這方面的數目報告那最後一個就是有關於診所受雇醫師加保的權益那這部分麻煩那個勞保局的白局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10606.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10629.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
一起來討論就是診所受雇醫師的加保權益事實上部長在當委員的時候也十分的關注這個議題這些醫師作為勞保孤兒這個部分的狀態好像一直沒有辦法得到解決一個就是在固定診所當其他的醫事人員都有投保也成立了投保單位的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10630.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10649.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
卻選擇性沒有幫這個在這個診所的醫師加保雖然已經勞動部有含釋要加保可是卻苦於沒有強力沒有強制力解能輔導所以讓這個醫師的加保造成了困境第二個就是說如果這個醫師在多診所受過的話就算想要加保職業公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10650.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10671.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
也會被勞保局拒絕無法投保職業公會所以在相關政策討論一議之前那是不是可以請我們的勞動部勞保局會同衛福部能夠整理勾結出這兩種大概的統計數字讓我們在進一步做研討的時候能夠做有效的掌握來進行政策的推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10672.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10700.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這部分部長或是局長有一個意見跟委員這邊做報告那因為本以契約自由的原則那診所跟醫師之間的勞務關係不一定一定是雇傭不過如果委員這邊有提到固定診所跟多診所受雇他們的一個加保情況我們依委員這邊的一個建議我們跟衛福部這邊來演繹在符合各執法的前提下因為醫師的名冊由衛福部提供給勞動部這邊那如果這個資料我們可以拿到我們來做資料的勾結提供給委員這邊做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10701.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10724.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
好那就麻煩部長麻煩局長好謝謝主席好謝謝王振興委員發言委員會預告待會因為中午要協商我們的未還的組織法所以12點半休息用餐到下午2點才繼續開會那接下來我們請盧憲一召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10730.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10731.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
有請部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10742.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10769.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
今天有三個問題要問你當然還是關於執聘中心的這些成效我們都知道我們的外勞我們現在的移工就是很像一進來就會有悲哉所以我們一直在希望能夠有一個執聘的執聘中心可是我看到資料上面說實際使用的只有3.3%未曾使用的主要原因大概就是沒有後續代辦及管理服務然後沒有時間了解申辦的程序跟進行申辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10770.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10794.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
然後還有就是說因為文件複雜不想申辦這些理由那我們想知道說現在有海外的一個據點那是不是這從115年1月到現在我想知道說實際完成多少件政府對政府的一個媒合其中有多少件是真正做到移工跟雇主都不再支付境內外仲介費的零付費案件有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10796.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10815.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
跟委員說明的確現在在我們整體的職聘的制度裡面我認為成效上面是絕對是有待提升的那這也是為什麼我們其實目前是其實是很系統性的在檢視我們整個移工聘務流程的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10815.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10843.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那當移工聘僱的流程相對跟他相關的要求比較繁瑣的時候的確僱主就會比較依賴人力總結的這個狀況是那所以這整個的制度的檢討其實我想我們目前正是如無圖的在檢討跟研議接下來要去簡化跟優化這個聘僱流程包括尤其是職聘相關的制度的部分正在檢討這件事情中 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10843.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10870.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
對 我就說他們程序複雜嘛覺得你們有在精進這些我們的複雜的程序嗎對 有這是現在正在我們非常非常優先的工作那現在我們看到我們跟印度也有簽一個MOU可是我想說這個萊塩國的這些協商啊 招募流程 成本分擔產業承接的能力國內承接的服務跟風險如果沒有一起設計我在想是不是這個印度的移工也會面臨到這樣的問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10874.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10890.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
其實剛剛在講的是整體制度的問題其實整體制度的問題當然會跟各個來源國都會有關係其實各個來源國都會有關係所以我們現在在處理的不是只是個別的國家而是必須對於整體的制度做再一次的檢視跟優化 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10892.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10908.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
對 那我們還是希望說我們不是反對職聘然後只是希望說他能夠這個不好用的制度能不能就真正設計一個可以降低成本然後降低不確定性降低行政負擔然後大家都可以不要再回過頭去依賴我們的仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10911.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10937.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
其實很多人一種也是相當專業的其實仲介業其實他們在提供給雇主的一些服務上面也是有它的價值但重點並不是我們其實重點並不是要去消滅仲介並不是而是要建立一個跟接軌國境目前在勞動人權要求的這個公平招募的機制我們的目標是這件事情所以在這個制度在這個建立這樣的制度之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10938.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10966.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那只要能夠符合這個國際的公平招募的一些原則跟概念我想各方大家一起來參與都很好當然我們現在要解決的就是所謂的資訊不對等那今天我們再問第二個問題就是我們現在就是採取採訪就是比如說我們有看到一些有買工費續聘費轉換費這些亂收費用的這些現象我們有可以採訪不過我想知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10967.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10994.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
你一再只是用財閥拿查緝為什麼這種市場還是一直都有利可圖或者說一而再再而三的發生呢第一個是其實財閥查處跟財閥是方法之一就像現在其實我們自己也看到有越來越多的企業雇主也意識到公平招募的重要性而且做到這件事情的時候其實對他們企業在供應鏈裡面的信任度跟競爭力都有好處 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10995.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11011.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這也是為什麼很多企業開始在投入的原因因為如果沒有做到其實剛才大家在講到的是被像我們重要的貿易國家夥伴去要求可是有更多現在正在發生的事情是直接是供應鏈裡面的品牌供應鏈裡面的進口商 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11012.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11037.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
回頭用供應鏈管理的方式去集合這個他供應鏈上面的成員和供應商他相關勞動人權部分這也是一個重要的機制那這個機制部分比較多會是來自一個供應鏈管理的商業機制的部分那我認為我們其實現在也希望能夠跟這樣的商業機制來進行合作所以有公權力的機制也有商業相關的機制這裡面大家可以有一些相輔相成 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11037.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11062.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
對 那我們還是可以知道說這樣的一個買工費的長期存在就是制度有問題所以我們想說還是希望勞動部這邊多努力第二個就是說是不是有些產業產業是不是可以強化它的職聘跟政府的媒合哪些職業或者是說類別是需要外部專業的服務可是要加強它的透明的監管第三個就是說我們能不能升級成為說屬於產業產業屬性設計來設計聘僱制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11067.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11096.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我的最終的一個理想是這樣第一個是制度會有他整體制度上面該考慮的事情所以的確現在整體的制度上面當然我們現在比較粗分為是產業移工跟家事移工確實在這邊會有分可是我們目前的確並這個在我們簽署的這個ART裡面現在比較多會先著重的部分是製造業餘老業還是比較是針對產業移工的部分這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11096.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11124.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
然後第三個問題就是對原住民就有一個衝擊就是我們現在有看到就是每一名員工就是本國勞工加薪兩千元就可以額外再續聘一名移工然後上限10%然後現在的人數上限從40%到45%也開放旅宿業三港碼頭業這些比較重視勞力的那我想說這些工作也大部分都是我們原住民在從事的工作那有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11124.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11143.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
做一些比如說對原住民勞工啊偏鄉青年勞工這些我們產業的一個衝擊評估跟各位說明第一個原住民的目前的失業率其實就失業率的水準來說其實是比整體個人還要來的低的啦那剛剛說對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11147.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11164.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
目前偏鄉的勞工高風險或低薪的產業其實比方說以上港碼頭來說的話其實的確看到像上港碼頭業他們人力缺缺口的狀況是蠻嚴重的這也是為什麼我們把它考慮放進能夠引進的範疇裡面其實的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11166.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11187.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以的確是在這些引進的行業裡面目前開放引進的行業裡面我們都會評估他目前這個行業裡面勞動力缺口的狀況所以在去年公布的這個跨國勞動力經濟方案裡面的確是看到包括是旅宿業或三崗碼頭的確都是現在在各種整體的評估裡面看到他們的缺口是相對比較大的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11188.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11215.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但我們認為在這些行業裡面去做這樣子的開放其實對於本國勞工的就業的影響其實是會相對是比較小的對 因為我們還是要特別強調做原住民的立委當然是還是要優先關切我們原住民的勞工跟本國的勞工的工作權所以國家不能用一群比較弱勢比較沒有溢價能力的人去壓低另外一群本來就處於不利位置的人我們不是反對移工可是還是要問國家有沒有避免讓弱勢彼此競爭讓彼此來 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11218.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11243.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
來承擔這個制度的成本跟委員說明第一個我們非常非常樂意跟像跟園民會來討論怎麼樣再提高這個原住民的整體的就業率再降低失業率雖然現在失業率已經比整體的這個國人來的低了但我們很樂意去講尤其是怎麼樣來協助原住民勞工找到更優質的工作的機會這部分我們很願意跟園民會一起來來討論謝謝部長謝謝那我們請農業部的王署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11257.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11271.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
就針對Wi-Fi這件事情做幾點疑問因為本人的父親在我小學的時候是曾經做過遠洋漁工那我知道他們在那個環境裡面我們都知道我們被外國詬病就是我們的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11273.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11280.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
過場給付不足然後生活條件不佳所以遭美方關切那我們現在有948艘船現在目標是300艘可是現在只有183艘來專船這樣一個進度你滿意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11288.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11307.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
跟委員報告真的是不滿意那現在署裡面絕對會用盡各種這種獎勵輔導或是政策工具的手段來協助我們這些遠洋經營者不是要裝而已而是要開放給我們漁工來使用這才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11308.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11325.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
因為在海上的這個要Wi-Fi可以暢通靠的真的都是要這種衛星的網路那因為我們現在國內的衛星的設備經過NCC這個經過形式認證的就只有IMAC跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11326.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11346.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
OneWeb兩個衛星系統但是這兩個衛星系統其實它的這一個傳輸速度慢而且單價又高其實最快的還是像美國的Starlink星鏈這一種它的其實傳輸速度是好的所以我們政策上現在有一些的調整就是說我不去糾結你去買什麼設備我們用通訊費的補助來鼓勵我們經營者來開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11353.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11372.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這一個Wi-Fi這些衛星網路讓漁工來使用另外它如果能開放給漁工使用達到一定的程度那跟委員報告因為我們現在遠洋作業裡面是在各個國際組織是高度管理的有一些漁種都是有配額分配的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11372.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11385.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那我們就會善用這種配額獎勵的方式來提高這個誘因讓我們的經營者儘速來提升這一個Wi-Fi的分享的使用率 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11386.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11406.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我們確實知道他確實是我們遠洋漁工的申訴啊求救啊聯繫啊保存證據降低恐懼跟控制的這個重要的基礎設施那我看到有第二期計劃已經送到行政院嗎那是不是對比如說工資通報啊專戶保管工資電廠這些項目有沒有做明確的目標跟預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11406.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11426.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
跟委員報告因為過去我們這兩三年確實被一些勞團也指控我們有一些欠薪的案件其實我們花了很多的時間我們都把它處理完了但是現在欠薪的機制一定要建立起來所以我們在去年研擬好未來你這些的經營者 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11428.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11453.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
按定期你都要來申報你的薪資的一個狀況那我們也要求工會這些工協會你要針對這些漁船聘僱人數的高低薪資的發放作業期間的長短你要提撥一定的金額進到這個工會裡面成立一個基金只要一發生欠薪那工會這筆基金馬上先解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11453.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11474.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那至於欠薪的那一條船那我們後續透過其他行政手段來做那跟委員報告這個是今年1月1號我們就正式實施了好謝謝那就說希望農業部能夠在會後提供兩年內全面普及率的一個具體時程跟預算編列的狀況可以嗎可以沒問題是謝謝市長謝謝委員好謝謝我們的盧憲英召委的發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11490.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11493.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11504.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11528.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們來討論外籍移工的議題台灣從1980年我們開始引進了外籍移工目前的人數大約是85萬人主要的來源大概就是印尼、菲律賓、泰國、越南但是我們在2025年9月份的時候發生了一件美國對於我們知名品牌自行車巨大 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11530.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11534.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
實施了禁止進口令與供應鏈存在的他們說法是強迫勞動的風險包括了工人因債務被迫勞動等這些事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11550.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11565.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
當然這個影響到整個巨大的股價重挫但是我們看到國際勞工組織它的強迫勞動指標它的項目大概有11項包括剛剛所說的過度加工等 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11566.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11595.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那我們又看到我國的制度我方的制度呢我國政府是允許仲介向移工收取這個仲介費所以業者會擔心隨著供應鏈的一個審查在歐美如果成為是常態化的話那麼我們目前在台灣的這個移工制度可能會受到國際影響的一個牽扯那所以部長我們要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11596.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11614.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
去協助我們的產業請做說明跟各位說明第一個我們很清楚看到現在國際在移工人權或勞工人權上面要求的趨勢而且大家的要求的標準越來越高甚至重視的程度越來越高我們必須看清楚這件事情所以方向上是清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11615.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11630.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們一定要更加的重視公平招募也包括降低工因為來台而會被債欠債的這個狀況部長你現在這麼說呢也就是看看我們的制度那當然大品牌包括美利達巨大 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11631.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11651.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
他們在這個暫扣令實施之後他們更加的去加強也就是整個它完全包括限職包括新進它是完全的這個零互惠的政策但是我們看到台灣的產業中小企業占多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11653.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11671.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這一塊我們政府要怎麼去協助他大型的企業他們願意努力做我們給美利達給巨大讚許但是本期要跟你討論就是說在台灣中小企業占九成以上的這個情況之下你如何來協助我們這些產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11672.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11690.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以第一個是我們其實現在在二月的時候其實我們也提出了相關的指引來協助產業去辨識相關的風險跟管理風險那目前跟經濟部合作的輔導宣導的做法其實目前也正在上路之中那再來一個就是剛剛其實也幾個委員談到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11692.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11711 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
也有包括要對仲介的人力仲介他們的這個經營的方式跟他們的這個運作的方法上我們會希望用仲介的評鑑的方式來做引導讓大家更重視公平招募的部分把這部分納為仲介評鑑裡面重要的評鑑跟辨識的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11713.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11736.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那當然我們現在有包括在跟這個美方的談判裡面我們也談到其實會要在三年內我們必須針對製造業也好或幾個產業來修改法規那為什麼有三年這部分也是剛剛委員講到的確實有些大廠他比較有條件快速的來去做調整可是我們有很多中小企業這些中小企業他確實會比較需要一個調適期 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11739.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11755.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個調適期要讓他們對於這樣子的一個趨勢跟這樣子的必要性有一定的程度的了解同時政府也不只勞動部可能包括產業主管機關也要一直來協助大家怎麼在這方面來去做你所謂的三年內要怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11756.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11782.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
三年內是我們是有承諾在三年內要以法規的方式要禁止像這些產業移工來收取仲介費或招募費所以部長你講的這個就是重點到目前為止我們的法律是許可的所以到我們要跟國際接軌的時候中小企業沒有辦法有這個能量的時候我們除了法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11784.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11801.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這個指引應該要怎麼樣能夠讓我們的中小企業它可以承受得住第一個非常的重要還能夠跟國際接軌因為剛才本席一再強調我們的量體是以中小企業為多數就業率也都是在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11804.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11820.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以剛剛跟委員說明的是其實在這一段調試期裡面我們有非常多的工作要必須來做甚至是其實也開始會有一些企業表達過去可能很多的招募費用是由移工來付接下來如果不行的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11820.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11842.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那就變成雇主付還是他們願意現在來跟政府合作用執聘的方式因為執聘的方式現在變成是一個有助於企業降低成本的做法因為以前假如這個招募費用是一共來付的話其實企業不用負擔所以他可能對這事情不是那麼重視可是當未來他要由企業來負擔的時候雇主來負擔的時候他就開始對這件事情比較重視因為這就變成成本向 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11843.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11866.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
所以部長 針對這個問題我們大家一起看到了這個問題所以我們也希望要加緊腳步怎麼樣去指引在法規方面怎麼樣去協助我們所有的中小企業產業因為大家都有這個憂心所以因此台灣跟美國簽了ART之後也就是被迫勞動產品的清單 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11869.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11878.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以相關的商品進口美國海關公佈目前為止有55個企業跟8個遭確性有強迫勞動狀況的失業所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11884.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11888.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
美國針對於強迫勞動的這個議題展開了301的這個調查那經貿辦他也預計在4月15日以前要提出書面的證實4月28日會赴華美初期公聽會力保台灣產業出口的競爭力所以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11904.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11922.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
目前為止我們政府對於這樣的調查我們的因應如何因為這個關係的整個我們的產業產業非常的用心跟我們說明其實我們現在跟經貿辦跟行政院也一直在準備這個301調查相關的資料的文件現在我們一直在準備正在準備這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11923.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11943.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以4月15以前會提出嗎對一定我們會提出那所以這也是為什麼我們其實在今天在行政院院會把這個禁止扣留勞工相關的重要文件的這樣子的修法的草案今天在行政院院會已經列討論案通過以後我們就會盡快的送到 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11944.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11971.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
立法院裡面希望來做審議那這部分其實就是也是在向美方讓美方了解其實我們對於禁止強迫勞動我們是有實質的作為的不是只有口號我們是有實質的作為的那這邊都是實質的作為希望有助於這些作為包括救護法的修法這些作為都是能夠有助於我們在301的調查裡面尤其是針對強迫勞動的部分的檢視所以因此不只是美方 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11972.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11983.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
歐盟預計企業永續禁止調查指令他也預計在2027年要上路所以要求企業全面要檢視整個供應鏈的人權跟環境風險所以台灣未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11989.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12003.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
要怎麼樣去建立這個制度要不然我們企業也是非常的憂心到時候可能面臨到非常高額的一個罰款甚至國際的制裁所以政府有這個責任要怎麼樣協助我們的產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12005.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12019.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
第一個我們先看到了美方CBP跟我貿易談判的部分那確實歐盟,歐盟這邊他也有CSDD,就是剛才講的金融調查的部分這個調查比較是針對公司,針對公司的部分那也有他們的FLR,就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12022.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12045.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
強迫勞動的禁止商品禁止的部分它比較是針對產品的部分那這邊有它不同著重的重點所以我們也必須看到的確現在我們一直在跟企業看到你必須看到我們這些重要的國際貿易的夥伴目前都在越來越重視甚至會提拿出作為的說法所以我們確實是必須要加速對所以台灣結論就是說台灣的產業是非常的精兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12046.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12058.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
跟世界連結 所以這些企業所憂心的也是政府的責任 要怎麼樣好好的去協助 謝謝謝謝楊雄英委員的發言 接下來請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席 主席請一下洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12077.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12094.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
市長我還是問一下有關巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車和零組件在美國被暫扣並暫扣住了原因是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12096.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12116.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
違反使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國原因大概這樣子那我想要請問一下就是這件事情是去年九月到現在勞動部在後續有沒有進行對該公司進行相關的勞檢以及協助該公司因應的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12116.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12141.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
跟文說明其實在9月底的時候我們其實就有進場針對美方目前針對該公司的5點的部分其實也協助去做他現場的一些檢視跟給予一些建議那當然後續這家公司巨大公司其實他也做出應該是蠻實質的改善所以他目前對國際的要求也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12142.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12168.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
很清楚的理解也應該提出了蠻具體的改善所以現在其實應該是在後續的集合跟相關的報告文件的檢閱之中就是說我這邊的資料是這樣子就是9月底發生了以後呢勞動部這邊去稽查大概也沒有查到什麼我們那次不是去稽查我們是去現場看然後給予這個相關的一些建議改善的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12169.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12188.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那就是也沒有發現很大的問題對不對其實的確會有一些部分有改善的空間有改善的空間我請問一下部長就是除了美國其實歐盟在2027年開始大概也要開始適用禁止強迫勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12190.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12210.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
產品規章那國企業在保障勞動權益上國內合法跟國際標準落差有沒有這個現象我們有解釋相關的法規那假如有的話現在在十一項的指標裡面比方說我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12211.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12229.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
不得留置勞工證件的部分的法規的強度的確有需要再強化所以這也是為什麼我們今天在行政院院會裡面其實已經列為討論案接下來就要送到立法院來做修法的審議在救福法的部分這是一個部分那另外一個部分就是扣留證件的部分我們覺得法規上的確有強化的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12229.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12255.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
第二個部分就是針對這個抵債勞務的部分會有人說有些人會說叫債務約束債務約束的部分就會是關於是讓移工來付相關的招募費或相關的仲介費的部分也需要改也需要做出法規上面調整的改革那這部分我們是目前是以一個大概三年的時間作為給企業的調整是不是就是今年二月發布的參考指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12256.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12277.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
參考指引是其中的一部分參考指引不是只針對DSAO參考指引我們是針對11個ILO的強迫勞動的指標項目裡面都在這裡面告訴大家應該要怎麼做同時也告訴企業要怎麼去檢視自己的風險我舉個例子其實有一些企業他可能連跟人力仲介他都沒有簽合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12280.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12291.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
所以甚至沒有進到履約管理的邏輯裡面的時候他可能就會變成是在強迫勞動相關裡面相對比較高風險的狀態所以我們的指引就是來協助企業去檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12293.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12321.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
他目前他的聘僱的模式裡面在強迫勞動的風險上面的高和低他要有能力去辨識才會有能力去管理那部長既然講到這一點這個就是可以立即積極去做的事情因為有一些企業主特別是微型企業其實他可能也有聘僱移工可是呢他在法規範也好在企業概念上也好他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12323.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12346.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
可能相關的知識儲備是不足的所以我們發布了指引以後不是只是把指引發布完就沒事了是後續的宣導包括輔導的機制都是要同時上路進行那這部分是跟經濟部跟經濟部的包括他們的產發署其實都在針對這個部分來向企業來去宣導輔導的合作這個要趕快做因為強迫勞動呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12353.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12373.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
抵債勞務為最主要的點然後向外擴張就會產生了很多誘騙控制剝削威脅等等的支配勞工手段那我大概知道你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12374.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12401.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
有一個指引出來可是現在現在的救福法上面並沒有強制規沒有強制雇主必須要負擔乙公母國的仲介費用其實就是為什麼說抵債勞務就是因為有欠錢嘛對不對那我們在救福法上面沒有沒有相關的強制的規定那 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12403.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12412.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
在政策工具上可能勞動部還是要想一下怎麼去促進企業願意遵守剛剛講的那個質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12414.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12435.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
針對抵債勞務的部分我們目前就是預計有一個三年的調適期來去做相關法規的修訂就是希望在這裡面有一個更明確的法規的律定其實來去處理這個問題不過這的確因為涉及到就像剛剛委員說我們有很多的中小企業所以這些中小企業是需要給他一點法規的調適期所以我們大概設定了一個三年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12437.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12457.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
部長我還是要幫你們講一下就是說移工跟台灣的特別是中小企業之間的權益保障確實怎麼橫平這個確實是一件很困難的事情所以最快的方法就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12459.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12487.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
怎麼落實執聘中心的功能因為執聘中心我們是除了收取相關規費以外是沒有任何仲介費用的對不對我們希望降低仲介人力仲介應該是說選擇執聘的方法的模式裡面其中一個核心就是國對國的選工對這是它的核心除了國對國以外對於移工的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12488.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12514.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
或者是把中介費用轉嫁到台灣的中小企業就不管哪一邊負擔都可以降低那我請教一下部長我們在這個是部裡面的數據這114年國內引進移工人數大概有86萬透過執聘中心引進的人數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12516.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12532.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
應該部長那邊有資料嗎蠻低的蠻低的不高對蠻低的那我們剛剛已經先討論了就是職聘中心的可以可以達到很多經濟上的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12534.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12558.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
從保障移工也好 從扶植台灣的中小企業也好執聘中心就是有很大的功能那為什麼會在86萬人裡面 透過執聘的比例那麼低我們其實在過去幾個月 其實我們做了檢討有幾個原因 第一個 的確我們在政府執聘中心已經成立多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12561.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12585.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
在97年到現在其實時間蠻長的然後最近最近才開始好好那最近最近檢討有幾個部分我們認為我們必須要來做了吼第一個部分是關於職聘中心的據點其實應該要增加因為現在大概只有一處的據點這個資訊我有吼不過我還是要跟跟部長提醒一下就是說功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12586.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12607.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
要先看它現在目前的功能跟管道是不是有問題可能並不是單純的多點就可以提升它的功能所以我把幾個部分這樣跟委員說明其實據點的增加是其中一個部分另外幾個更重要的部分是我們在職聘或者是我們在聘僱過程的程序要簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12609.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12618.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
就是程序簡化程序必須簡化第二個是我們在跟來源國談的國對國的引進的這個部分的量能跟穩定度也必須要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12619.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12641.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以有在境外的部分國對國的部分的量能穩定度要提高但這會涉及到跟來源國的討論跟這個合作那再來說我們更很重要的事情是我們自己在聘僱的過程裡面如果程序過度繁複的話就會讓很多的僱主他自己的確想做可是因為過度繁複他會覺得行政成本太高所以也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12642.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12655.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
比較降低意願這部分也必須改變所以從據點到我們的流程到國外的討論這些事情都缺一不可部長因為等一下還有法案要協商然後我就簡單做個做個 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12660.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12689.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
做個結論就是說我的看法是殖病中心其實可能是目前想得到最可以保障各方權益的方式是那部長剛剛講的三點就是國對國之間這個可能不是我們單方面可以做的但我們要努力對那增設據點的部分我覺得你們應該要排在比較後面一點簡化流程然後加強宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12691.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12719.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我並不覺得說在台北設一個執聘中心沒有辦法達到執聘中心原有的功能在全台多設幾個可以這個供部長做參考啦我們下一次有機會我們就這個問題再做深入一點的探討好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝養藥委員發言接下來請邱正軍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12729.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12732.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
主席好 我們一樣請洪部長有請洪部長邱委員好部長好還是就剛剛我們這個洋藥委員講的就是說我們現在定調2026年是印度移工的這個元年現在已經四月了我想直接問一下這個元年的時間表部長會這個實現嗎還是會跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12756.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12769.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
第一個其實在印度移工的部分我們今年1月其實已經我有指派我們的次長那帶相關發案所的同仁其實到印度這邊去做了相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12771.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12791.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
了解跟相關的訪問那也希望能夠把這裡面可能會涉及到的一些行政事務事務性的部分怎麼跟在印度印方目前的行政體系要去做更進一步的對接那我們目前正在這個相關的推動的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12791.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12809.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
好那你說事辦引進一千人嘛對不對對好然後那我手上有資料是說現在印度這個密索蘭邦一月份有三百多人有意願那預計三月份就完成初審所以現在實際初審的人有多少跟文說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12811.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12823.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
現在在印度特定的一些邦當然他們已經表達他們的意願但是現在後續的程序其實也要看我們再把相關的準備的工作做好以後那現在有多少人 有沒有300多人有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12825.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12841.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
後續這個後面還要把所以現在還沒有正確數字就對了還沒有所以1月9號的時候我們次長剛剛部長有講到嘛我們的次長陳明仁跟陳牧民大使率團10個人去那邊所以他們去幹嘛是去旅遊還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12842.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12861.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
當然不是旅遊他們是公務也就是他們在看包括我們很多台商在使用印度勞工的狀況那也包括去了解他們行政體系裡面的目前的一些現況比較知道我們要跟他銜接的話用怎麼樣銜接的方式會比較順所以你們三個月已經過了三個月到現在還沒有一個結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12862.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12881.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
已經去回來了所以現在還在跟印方針對後續的這個行政上面的流程跟對接細節正在做一些文件上面的確認檢核也就是說我們現在可以確定就是說有300多人已經在3月份審查完了不是不是審查完了沒有都沒有是 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12882.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12907.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那他們去幹什麼委員剛剛其實在講的比較是在印度的這個幫他們自己內部去詢問有意願的人有300多但他目前還沒有進入到整個引進的程序裡面為什麼那麼慢因為我們跟印方其實要引進的話有很多行政的對口必須要銜接那也包括其實包括像健檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12907.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12925.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
包括很多 手批會什麼時候來我們當然認為今年是有可能的那有多少這個比例是你們講的G2G政府對政府的這個執聘還是維持你們之前所說的5%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12926.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12941.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
大概2024年的時候當時勞動部是有承諾5%但我們希望能夠做的比這邊更多所以你會超過就對了我們希望能夠超過比較希望嘛 你有沒有把握委員 這其實也會涉及到企業的需求的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12942.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12961.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以我先看一下就關於印度移工的引進細節你確認一下這份勞動部去年在11月25日的私訊會議記錄那1月9號這個次長率大使過去那這是確定的嗎我們現在看到這個部分就是說他這個記錄是確定的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12968.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12989.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這個是工作成績會議這是工作成績會議那我們1月的部分是直接我們次長帶我們發言所投的那現在印度那邊他已經是強調說台灣是這個特別個案然後他可以免這個登錄平台也可以不用繳讀冊費也不用繳保證金對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12992.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13012.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
就是不用因為原本他們原本這個針對就是emigrant的這個使用的方式我們進行蠻多次的磋商那後來我們是不用目前是談是不用經過爭取到不用一定非得要經過emigrant的做法那現在已經印度那邊已經幫我們開了這個綠色通道那為什麼到現在我們這個速度會這麼慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13015.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13032.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
根本說明這邊確實比方說像健檢那怎麼去確認彼此健檢的品質跟這個相關的審定也包括剛才講到有一些文件其實需要相關的驗證跟檢核這個文件驗證的檢核的方式其實現在都在跟印方在在討論之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13034.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13052.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
所以是還在溝通協調當中事務性的部分那什麼時候會這個直接進入實質的這個作為但我說我們認為今年應該是有機會的今年多少人會有多少人就是就是你講的那個1000人對5%更高這跟我們說明第一個這也要看企業的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13054.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13075.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
現在我現在有個疑問就是說現在印度方他已經這些免這些這個保證金這些那我們只有提提5%在300人左右那其他的其他的部分那怎麼辦我們還是透過仲介嗎第一個300人不是那5% |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13078.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13093.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我們現在希望如果要引進的話能夠讓職聘的部分是可以相對比較優先的所以我們希望能夠超過這個所謂的5%那我們如果這樣子的話我們面對美國的這個307條款301關稅法那個301條款那這裡面的這個部分我們能夠通過嗎我們在對美國的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13104.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13126.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
第一個是跟美國的部分現在301的調查正在進行我們都在準備給美方的文件所以我們也必須把我們目前的作為包括像我們指引包括我們的宣導輔導包括現在把救護法的修法等等等等這都會有助於讓美國美方確認我們在301的調查裡面我個人認為這一次當然是在這個301條款裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13127.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13151.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
就是說我們台灣最好的一個翻身的機會我們應該好好把握這一次機會一定要然後因為我剛剛也看到聽到幾個委員在講就其他的這個像我們這個剛剛講那個我們美國的那個那個什麼那個巨大的那個被 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13155.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13175.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那現在那個部分怎麼處理現在目前巨大公司其實已經有說明他已經跟美方的CPP取得他們目前正在確認那個他們提出具體的改善狀況相關的後續的集合跟一些文件上面的審閱那我請教農業部一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13187.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13207.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那個賴清德總統說要成立300億元的農安基金他的本質到底是什麼?是要用在哪裡?農安基金主要是針對這一次台美關稅裡面不管是進口出口那這個是屬於市場章的部分就是我們農營餘緒這些產業受到衝擊的部分來協助的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13211.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13240.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那這個關稅裡面還有所謂的市場章跟勞動章裡面相關的規範那環境章當然就是一些涉及有沒有非法捕魚啦環境保護的勞動章對我們是漁業影響是比較大因為勞動章裡面這裡面就要求到說比如說我們要在修法三年內要讓我們境外僱用的這些的外籍船員的勞動權益要等同 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13241.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13258.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
本國人要有相當所以變成說這農安基金變成是總統特別支持我們農業在這一次關稅裡面受到衝擊那後續我們要整體來提升產業的競爭力那給予的一些的產業的支持措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13260.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13284.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
對 農安基金的這個核心的功能就是為了救助那些受進口損害的農民那他編入的預算應該是專款專用那作為農民面對貿易自由化時最後的保命符這張是你們在今年二月發出的顧農民的宣傳圖除了圖上那27項你們宣稱的沒降稅沒讓利的農產品之外其餘的品項包括豬肉 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13286.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13294.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
鴨 鵝 鮮果是不是因為我們在台美貿易談判中放棄了特別防衛關稅導致這些農民失去了最後一道防護網 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13296.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13310.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那這300億本來應該用來補償這些國家的因為國家整體經濟貿易而損失而被犧牲的農民可是我看到你們在這個報告第4頁你們竟然要動用農安基金特別預算去處理遠洋漁業的強迫勞動的問題請教一下遠洋漁業的問題是進口損害嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13317.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13340.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
委員就要跟您報告就是說它不是受進口損害但是在這一次台美關稅裡面當然有市場的輸出跟准入的問題但是台美關稅裡面也特別提到勞動的議題就我剛剛講勞動章的這一個部分那美國對於這種我們的漁業因為我們的遠洋漁業其實是高度的仰賴出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13341.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13345.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
所以他對於這一個要提升勞動權益的要求相對比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13347.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13372.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以你們是因為勞工的部分嘛 對不對當然我們還有我們所謂的隨產品的出口跟進口的部分也有一部分會受到影響但是很大比例會是在這一個勞動議題的部分對啊 我看到美方強調這個無法聯繫外界是強迫勞動的一個核心的指標就是說目前1135艘風險漁船中只有183艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13376.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13385.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
安裝了Wi-Fi那剩下952艘將近84%的漁船都是在海上通訊黑洞你要如何向美方證明說船上沒有強迫勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13388.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13408.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
跟委員報告因為強迫勞動就誠如洪部長講的其實他有各項指標啦我看到你的計畫只有300艘要裝設那這代表預設有超過800艘的漁船不需要通訊設備那你們同意美國的手伸這麼長他如果到時候要進來檢查這種而且你們這種做法有符合美國的標準嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13410.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13435.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
跟委員報告就是其實我們現行零有這個遠洋作業許可應該是940幾艘啦那美國我們在跟他雙邊諮商裡面他對於Wi-Fi這一件事要普及化這一件事其實他給我們的目標是希望逐年提升是三年內要達到300艘但是我想這不是我們不會把這個當作是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13438.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13464.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
一個我只會把它當成低標我們會來努力要來擴充我們超過300艘就對了對對對我們要努力要達成絕對要超過這300艘多久的時間我們希望是起碼兩這三美國給我們的要求是三年內要到300艘但是我們自我要求我兩年內我就要達到300艘啦齁那三年的部分甚至400我們都會來努力是好謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13468.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13470.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
謝謝委員 接下來請王安祥委員發言有請約署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13486.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13511.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
委員好蘇珊好這個要講殘破勞動跟這個今天所謂的我看你們的報告公平招募我想一定要來跟大家這個了解一下狀況我想過去這個遠洋漁船對台灣來說其實是很重要的一個經濟的命脈不過過去大家可能在這個不光是在新聞上或是偶像劇都在拍這個東西一直到前幾天其實還在這個106也開了這個大外號記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13513.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13540.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我也看到這個農業部漁業署這邊也發了這個相關的新聞稿不過過去因為這個我想我也同意你們的報告上面寫其實大部分的這些業者其實都是蠻好的蠻守法的不過還是有一些業者其實有一些問題那第一個事情就是我想過去大家對我們的工時過長或者是甚至我們在那個美國的這個清單裡面我們想現在這個想要在這個清單裡面除名的這個進度大概是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13541.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13563.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
跟委員報告就是我們是真的很遺憾就是我們將近一千條的漁船裡面還是有少數涉及到這種比如說COCO薪資然後這一類的我們現在已經1.0了嗎已經第一期我們吳小燕也去跟美方也做了很多的說明我們已經有十幾次的雙邊的諮商 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13565.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13589.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
被列為強迫勞動清單已經三次了那今年2026年的9月他還會我希望署長是不是可以說這一次我是很期待我們一定可以提名這樣盡全力的把我們這幾年的努力成果我們都會定期跟AIT來做所以你覺得到底問題是在哪裡因為這麼多次了這麼多次的磋商會覺得很有機會啊為什麼待會來公會一會 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13591.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13620.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
委員在美國我們一直跟他討論為什麼不能解除強迫勞動清單他裡面有一點就是說台灣對於這種系統性欠薪的問題沒有做有效的解決所以我們過去也弄了很多證據用一些很多科學的方法像你們第一期裝了什麼CCTV或是我們用一些鏈的方法把它做這個沒有具體的成效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13621.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13638.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
有那跟委員報告就是美方最關切的還是就是我們過去這兩三年發生了12件的欠薪的事件那所以我們在去年就邀請我們這些工協會我們發展出一套系統就是工協會你要成立一個薪資電廠的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13640.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13669.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那只要一發生欠薪的狀況什麼錢都可以欠就是不能欠漁工的錢哪怕你經營不善所以你這一個工會要跳出來把漁工的錢先還清那經營者欠的這幾錢工會你再慢慢尋程序來跟他要所以我們今年正式實施這個新機電廠的機制那在跟AIT的溝通過程當中他也非常肯認我們這樣的做法希望今年我們就能夠除名了我們會來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13670.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13682.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
因為我知道你們報告也特別寫就是說現在遠洋跟近海是不同適用的法規很多學者也在講這個事情不過我看到你們報告裡面寫說第一個我問一下7188的示意法還有在推嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13686.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13711.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
正在推 還在推就是國內法制化嘛是 已經送到行政院了那行政院也審議過了 現在就等行政院院會通過我們就可以送立法院來排審因為現在我們其實有很多勞動法我們都在推啦 學習都在推啦我看你們也寫說要朝勞基法藝人化精神所以你們對於這個我們很多勞動法適用到遠洋的漁業上 漁船上你們的見解是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13712.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13739.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
跟委員報告其實我們遠洋在境外聘僱漁工隨便是那我們勞基法是民國73年是是是我知道這個很多學者也給你們很多意見你們應該知道我們在勞找之前我們就有這一套制度境外聘用這種外籍漁工我知道我知道後來也給你們管嘛對所以我們還是後來跟勞動部的分工上那我們在境外聘僱境外解僱走的是我們遠洋漁業條例的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13740.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13759.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那當然現在是雙軌制沒錯但是我們都有共同的目標就是要慢慢地適用國內的一些勞動法制嘛 對不對對 那雙我們雖然是雙軌管理但是未來的終極目標會走到精神都是一致像勞基卡像是最近比較多人提像那個災保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13759.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13779.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我不曉得你們評估的結果怎麼樣職業安全衛生的部分我們還是適用勞動部的職安衛的我們講的是那個災保法保險法就是那個職業災害那委員因為這一塊就是一樣是我們遠洋醫院條例我們自己走的是我們的商業保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13782.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13794.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以我希望能夠逐漸的統一我們的法制另外你們在報告裡面寫到說你們會要求不能收一些服務費這個服務費確定了服務費你們也要求他們都不能收 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13796.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13823.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
跟委員報告國內的部分我們在去年就修法完成了就是我們的仲介跟經營者都不能跟漁工收取任何的費用那現在比較麻煩還是在來源國那一塊來源國他要出來的費用現在像印尼出來可能要收6000到7000塊的美金那這個要講清楚如果未來需要我們雇主來吸收那 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13824.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13844.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
所以我們現在國內啦 其實救護法這邊其實也有很多的問題啦這個都要跟來源國講清楚啦要不然這個會...好 因為時間關係啦我最後關...就是再問最後一個問題啦就是我們在301號一些那個計職調查因為經濟部他們已經開始做嘛不曉得你們這個能力部這邊要怎麼配啊因為你們都是小...你們說你們都size都很小嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13846.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13866.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
委員很內行啊就是我們百分之八九十的漁船都是自然人個體戶那要做到淨值調查我們現在是希望由大代小所以說我們的貿易商那你的供應鏈裡面有一些的漁船要賣給他的那貿易商在做淨值調查的時候你要想辦法要配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13867.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13884.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
主席已經站起來沒關係啦 我們會後來如果這個醫護署這邊有什麼有一些最新的一些報告 包括CCTV或是Wi-Fi的狀況因為我們過去一直在關注這個議題啦也請醫護署這邊給我們一些書面的資料沒問題 沒問題或是有機會到委員辦公室跟委員做說明可以出現好 我們謝謝王安祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13904.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13907.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我們現在先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13934.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13938.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好快點快點 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13944.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13945.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13974.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13975.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13995.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13995.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14019.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14019.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14036.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14037.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14056.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14059.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
然後他就說他就說他就說我們這幾個節目的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14084.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14084.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14096.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14096.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14119.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14131.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
不用負責掌聲的 反正你們在那邊掌聲我會跟他討論一個問題 我認識你 你很兇你說我們沒有跟我們討論一個問題 哪有你跟我們討論一個問題你先亂把他們跟我們討論一個問題我會跟他們討論一個問題 哪有你跟我們討論一個問題 哪有你跟我們討論一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14147.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14153.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那你為什麼那你為什麼那你為什麼那你為什麼那你為什麼那你為什麼那你為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14174.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14191.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以你都很大胃啊你都很大胃啊你都很大胃啊你都很大胃啊你都很大胃 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14196.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14196.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
肉結汁 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14216.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14217.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
剪報紙剪報紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14259.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14270.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
好 現在繼續開會鄭振銓委員 鄭振銓委員 鄭振銓委員不在接著我們請洪義祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14272.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14295.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
洪義祥委員 洪義祥委員不在 接著我們請葉元之委員發言葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在 接著我們請鄭天才委員發言鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在 接著我們請林倩琦委員發言林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在 接著我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14297.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14314.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
蔡春秋委員發言蔡春秋委員蔡春秋委員蔡春秋委員蔡春秋委員不在接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在接著我們請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14332.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14353.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好劉委員好部長好我們一起恭迎王正希委員謝謝王委員大家有默契希望把洪部長留在委員會一起共用午餐部長立法院最關注EAP的是哪一個委員你知道嗎劉建國委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14358.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14383.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這應該關心EAP的制度落實啦那應該是哪一個政府單位老總部應該是很重要的是貴部啦對不對那請問部長你們這問題有做到嗎也可以請委員再提供給我們更多就是說哪些地方改善你不正面回應我的問題沒關係我們就一項一項來希望等一下你午餐可以用得很順暢 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14385.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14400.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
員工協助方案就是要照顧勞工方方面面然後協助各種問題其中是這個身心諮詢壓力排除最為關鍵那今天我要感謝那個召委啦他那個人已經走了也都感謝了謝謝王貞昇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14403.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14416.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
來防制強迫勞動與公平招募那台灣的移工制度接軌國際人權與供應鏈的這個治理的專報但是這個南東部對移工的身心健康有照顧到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14417.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14433.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我先給部長看一則報導那是報導者他們的這個整個描述為何痛苦的有近七成的醫工陷入失語的壓力然後這個身體健康亮起紅燈怎麼還沒跳出來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14441.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14466.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
好 部長可以看一下啦我對報告者的 相關一些報告一直以來都是非常重視因為他們這些記者基本上都是非常的深入 也非常用心這邊當然想講這樣因為語言文化的先聽隔閒當然也移工在底台工作初期因語言與適應新環境而累積的這個情緒都曾讓他們體驗過失語的滋味那無論可訴說煩惱與來自雇主的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14469.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14496.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
常成為壓垮移工的稻草在過去三十余年間不少漢氏病由失語延伸也根據立憲基金會移住者服務中心的調查近七成移工處於壓力環境台大醫學院的多名精神科醫師也研究發現超過四成以上看護工有睡眠的困擾然後進一步影響到心理的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14498.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14507.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
不能知道這些報道嗎?有有嘛那再根據這個利新基金會在2022年3年多前對531名的這個移工發起移工勞動現況及心理健康調查那處於壓力環境的高達67.4%及高壓力的已經來到14.3% |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14523.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14529.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個需要專業的人員的諮商或協助500多名的這個人的樣本 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14530.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14555.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
呈現出這樣的結果是非常驚人的啦然後又以看護工遭遇情緒困擾的比例高於這個產業移工那其實也不能想像看護工必須二、四個小時嘛然後陪伴在照顧者身旁同居同住那一般家屬都受不了的情況之下我們這個移工面對這樣的困境他要如何尋求這個求助 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14557.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14579.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那再請部長看一看這一張投影片這是勞花署勞花署在這個外國人勞動權利網上提供的相關的資訊不只這個中文版更翻譯成英文、印尼文、泰文、越南文四種這個外文版的這樣的一個版本不然你知道這一張圖有什麼樣的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14585.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14598.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
看起來是幾個國家的語言都有在上面除此之外還有嗎那其實我認為我們其實因為如果移工打1955可是1955要直接接到相關EAP |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14599.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14612.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
的系統的話其實這個語言的協助其實可能還是會有些阻礙好 會長講到部分1925是安心的專線生命線是1955所以副長剛剛只有答這個1955那張老師是1980 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14616.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14622.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
如果如需同意服務可洽1955專線來尋求協助就是部長剛剛所講的嘛我幫部長打了啦 也電話求證過了這個生命線的1995是1995還是19551955對嘛1955張老師的1980都沒有對應移工的專門服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14641.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14651.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
若要諮詢醫工仍然需要用中文跟對接人對談至於衛生部的1925請在上班時間提供英語服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14655.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14684.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
所以1955到底是什麼電話義工專線嗎義工如果他有他權益上面的問題的話他打1955可以得到這個語言上面的協助可是的確像委員說的包括生命線的1995或者是張老師的1980那對於目前義工比較熟悉的這些東南亞國家的語言其實可能的確是還是需要多一點的協助還是需要多一點協助嗎所以顯然部長你知道問題之所在嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14685.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14707.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
我們30多年了怎麼還會這個樣子跟委員說明我們接下來會想要請這個我有請發言署針對其實漁工在台灣可能會在各種需要語言協助的情境都希望做一輪的盤點跟整體的檢討那現在委員在講的可能是對他的心理 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14709.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14732.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
諮詢或者是心理上面需要專業需要的部分這當然會是其中一個情境那我們接下來也有想要找包括台灣的這個雇主也包括NGO包括各個其實相關的方向團體希望能夠來盤點大家需要語言的情境那可能各種不同語言的情境他需要各種不同的方案有些是需要人有些部分他是需要一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14733.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14759.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
界面的翻譯的資源其實都可能所以我們接下來想要針對這個語言移工的語言的需求的部分做一個整體性的檢討那這部分當然委員現在提到的部分應該也是要是我們在裡面檢討的其中之一部長我們引進這個外籍的看護工已經三十多年是然後這張圖法又是我們勞動部勞化署製作的嘛是對不對好那我們今天的主題叫做臺灣移工制度接軌國際人權嘛我們連 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14763.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14788.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
連一個基本上的一個諮商心理上的協助都這麼樣的卡卡簡單講叫卡卡然後30多年來就是如此那我們如果要再請生命線張老師外匯部的這個1925的提供協助就提出支援進行相關的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14790.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14819.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
可能還要一段時間的磨合對不對現在其實有三方同意的服務但是在實際的科技經濟 三方同意的服務在哪邊要打哪一支電話報告委員如果是打1955的話我們也可以幫他再接接到這個1995或者是1925或者是1925或者是1995要間接嘛對要間接嘛他必須再打過來我們1955那我們就可以三方通話那署長你有自己打過嗎我沒有打過那你要不要試看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14820.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14844.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
如果間接?是斷接還是間接?還是不接?還是借斷?你不要急著幫署長回應啦我是想說因為署長剛上任沒多久啦我們把問題挑出來好好的面對來做處理啦所以當你要答覆的時候應該你要相當有把握的這是一個非常可以間接的順暢的應該沒有什麼多大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14845.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14857.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那你可以很兇我稱主回答我一回回答我說這個已經做一段時間基本上當然還有微調還是修正的空間不過應該是順暢的啦不是你們答不出來對不對你們答不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14861.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14879.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
我就剛剛跟你講說我已經幫你們打過了我想今天是這樣啦我不是要去吐槽你們不過如果今天到現在這相關的專線都還有存在這樣的問題而且你們知道問題之所在然後一直到現在沒辦法處理那今天開這個會的主題我覺得就有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14882.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14907.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
所以我是希望這樣提出資源進行合作然後跟會務部跟生命線那義工如果需要輔導直接打1995、1955、1980的專線不然你這個海報做這樣、圖卡做這樣叫人家打電話去結果人家根本沒有辦法去提供義工母語的服務然後我覺得這樣就是很不好嘛萬一一個外籍義工他屬於在生命垂尾的邊緣 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14909.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14924.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
生命的垂尾冰原那發生的這樣狀況我們有沒有做過相關的這些統計我想沒有了那你這個專線的存在的實質的意義我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14925.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14943.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我們也新部長也新署長了要不要好好解釋就只有這些專線 針對這些專線我們可以來檢討他整個這個通譯服務的接通跟接軌的機制這部分我們也來檢討這件事情那是不是可以應該是兩個禮拜就可以把這樣的檢討提出來給我們做參考一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14945.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14958.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
一個月啦 還有一些相關修正然後可以實質上的一些真正的對接啦 間接啦 轉接啦 都可以啦我也請部長代為思考 EAP不應該只有專屬大公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14959.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14988.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
大企業的福利我們現在是總預算各部位都還沒有審這個到時候我們也會針對各大的部會還有相關的三級機關都好好再檢視EAP的一個執行狀況所以對民間來講不管是大公司還是大企業的福利唯一小企業辦公室小店家甚至像家庭看護工身處在這些職場的勞工他們也需要EAP勞動部應該如何來做這樣的一個整員同整資源然後提供一個全國性的勞工都可以使用EAP |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14989.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15006.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
我想這個是絕對是一個福國利民的政策請部長能不能帶回細心的研究我們就一併來講一樣一個月好不好可以嘛可以啦再來不只在看第二題移工之前的這樣的一個教育訓練86%投入3K產業民團開課判降低自災風險我們治安法也已經通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15017.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15034.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
怎麼會有現在還會有這樣積極的想要做這樣的一個訴求這個雖然看是113年我昨天還接到某個大學還有產業界的重要的一些人士來對我提出這樣的一個現狀其實他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15040.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15060.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
因應期盼的要降低整個這個外籍移工不管是中階不管是高階的這些專責技術的人員希望在台灣的職場上可以得到更多更好的保障這個之前的教育就是相對的重要到現在為止昨天不曉得怎麼看待這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15061.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15079.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
第一個跟穩說明其實現在在職災比比較高的還是在營造業那營造業現在移工是有開放的確我們在現在的整體的減災的計畫裡面其實也針對也在跟營造業在討論那因為其實有很多安全防護的資訊其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15081.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15101.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
營造業的現場不一定都有提供這些移工母國的版本所以怎麼在這些資訊的提供包括可能現場的機具的使用或者是一些危害的市井上其實也要有讓移工可以了解資訊的部分這部分我們要來做那另外一方面其實在針對營造業的減災的部分我們其實也會針對這個治安卡的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15104.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15126.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
來去擴大推動那在治安卡的部分裡面其中也有部分會是針對移工那尤其移工的話有各項的語言那在我們去年底公布的減災計畫裡面接下來治安卡要更大幅度的由政府這邊來去協助來去推動那這部分我們當然也有跟營造業這邊來去討論會推動的機制那其中移工的部分的持災就會是裡面一個其中很重要的環節 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15127.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15144.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這個我們說什麼時候開始做這樣的一個一個更積極的一個因應跟今年開始今年開始今年第一季剛過對不對那你們有沒有對照這個報導是2024啊那2025的出來沒有我給部長跟書長講一個數據嘛齁2024的移工職災幾戶就有1532件 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15153.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15179.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這幾個案件裡面其中夾傷、切傷、割傷就有1069件佔整體的69.7%是移工最主要的職業災害項目其實是墜落、跌倒等撞擊傷害佔比有14%被物品飛落、倒塌、壓傷7.3%燒讓傷或是接觸到有害物質等環境傷害7.5%署長能不能直接跟部長跟委員會講說2025已經顯著下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15182.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15211.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
哪幾個項目減少了幾%有沒有把握2025的資料目前看起來勞保局目前還在統計中但是我跟文說的時候因為我剛剛在講的是我們其實去年下半年有發布一個強化減災的計畫這個強化減災計畫裡面其實有27項的要去做的工作其中有一個部分就是資安卡的擴大那資安卡擴大裡面其實就是希望能夠更多的把移工給納進來那這個部分的工作會是今年擴大開始做 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15212.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15220.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
就是應該是之前就有職安卡的制度可是我們希望現在政府的部分要在職安卡的推動裡面要承擔起一個更大的責任這是從今年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15222.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15244.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
陳昌喜更大的責任不應該是從今年開始的是應該早早就有開始的我只是想說用2025來對照2024其實很多事情我們就可以顯得來了解說問題到底應該怎麼去再做一些調整跟修正啦我是提醒這個嘛你看連民主黨都認為不行啊希望趕快這樣開這個職債的這個相關的課程降低職債的風險嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15250.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15273.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我不曉得我們的班是越開越多還是越開越少如果你的班越開越少那你進來的人是越來越多那你跟我講說你2026年足以在幾個實在的幾戶項目可以去降低下來那顯然之前在委會討論過的然後你們對委會做的承諾基本上是很難達成這樣的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15276.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15302.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
跟委員報告 確實我們整個子彈卡的目標在往上提升今年希望達到 拿到子彈卡達到30萬人那目前移工取得這個子彈卡是將近1萬人 9千多人我們今年會設一個目標讓移工 更多的移工取得這個子彈卡的訓練子彈卡處理是一件事情嘛 對那剛剛我特別提到嘛 如果說你們在很多學校開的班期的數額是越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15306.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15328.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
會不會有相對的我們現在希望能夠讓職安卡可以被適用跟來參與職安卡訓練的人這個人數可以再增加所以相關的這個訓練的資源或者是課程的資源也是必然一定會增加的那不然你可以簡單導入我就以2026年對照2022年你們是增加幾%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15334.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15361.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
跟委員報告喔委員如果是針對移工的這個教育訓練的部分其實移工本身目前在從事像堆高機或是起重機的一些吊掛他這個班次是不斷在增加因為產業有需求的話我們的這個班次就會在增加不是啊 市長你要答覆我應該是用比較精準的說我嘛一直在增加 不斷的增加今年對照2025是增加幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15363.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15379.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
2025年對照2024年增加幾%你的不斷增加是每年增加一般每年增加訓練的40個人那也叫不增加 那也叫不斷增加第一個跟委員說明齁這個部分我想我們相關的課程課程數一定會增加那我會請 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15381.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15409.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我們責任署那尤其是因為針對移工的部分可能要特別顧及他的語言的需求這部分我們要來規劃這個一樣是增加的能量來去處理這個問題因為的確我們現在看到在尤其是在營造你到現在沒辦法回答我說你們如何增加嘛人增加的那個設定的目標你們也都不清不楚嘛那你怎麼有辦法打呼我說你們主人在增加持續的在增加不斷的在增加你們的增加是在心理增加心理建設增加你們個人的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15410.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15427.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
而不是實際上你們在處理的這個政策上的一個真正的班級數增加 師資增加然後來參與的 雇主願意投入 鼓勵我們這些勞工來參與這樣的一個課程還是政府去鼓勵 都可以看到顯著增加的數了 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15429.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15440.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
你打呼我應該是這個樣子才對啊你就連這個沒辦法不理我 打不中啊那顯然你現在是在某個角度是在虛隱了視對我是算是不好的這樣的回應我不好意思講說你在欺騙我我講這樣不曉得是傷到你還是傷到我 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15450.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15454.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我就用2026來對照2025對照2024你們增加怎麼樣的一個看你要用什麼統計數據來回應我啊來回應這一則的報導啊來回應民營團判開課可以降低自災風險啊我只要求一個數據嘛你最起碼數據給我嘛各位報告齁如果以剛剛講的子彈卡訓練我們今年達到30萬那去年呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15478.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15503.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
今年的目標要達到30萬 明年要到40萬然後我們三年內要達到50萬這是資安卡的部分就30萬、40萬、50萬那這個之前沒有嘛對不對之前的這個剛剛部長有提到我們之前辦的這個規模沒那麼大所以我們現在把它設目標就是我們過去幾年是沒有這麼大啦我知道你沒有這麼大的時候當時是多少嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15504.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15517.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
大概在去年大概22萬而已22萬所以你今年希望多增加8萬增加8萬嘛那再來每年再增加10萬嘛對 3年到50萬那這個增加也不算是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15519.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15540.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
怎麼講就每年等於是增加30%是這樣其實按照這個增加幅度的話其實基本上是三年要翻倍要是現在的翻倍資安卡的制度其實其實已經蠻長的時間所以等於是在接下來三年的推動裡面要是過去長時間可能目前才累積到大概22萬在三年內就希望把這個數字給翻倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15541.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15568.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好 這部長講的嘛我想教育部提供學校施肢嘛勞動部提供獎勵誘因鼓勵仲介雇主引入義工前先送去學校進行相關的培訓課程嘛然後透過這個課程義工不僅會學習到未來這個整個職場上需要的職能同時也更有完整的這樣的一個職安的一個觀念嘛那降低這個職災的一個風險我想這是一個三領的一個政策啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15570.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15570.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
這沒有錯吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15573.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15600.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
所以剛剛部長答覆我的還有部長答覆我的相關的這個數據是不是提供給委員會那我們再來檢視我們把資安卡希望能夠提高的這個逐年目標的數據我們可以提供給委員會好那如果現在已經有相關的學校都想要積極來配合應該我們勞動部跟教育部這邊勞動部應該可以主動來做好這樣的一個聯繫甚至於相關的一些建制應該可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15600.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15624.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我們其實主要現在應該會是要跟產業界包括跟營造業界來做合作那當然有更多其他部會議起來也是好事但主要我們會是跟產業的目前產業的工協會來合作我請請博杜就責成我們這個勞工署一個月內就召集一個禮拜一個月內就召集勞動部還有教育部相關的來進行這個相關政策來處理好不好可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15624.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15639.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
那個跟委員說明第一個因為涉及到移工的職安目前還是由職安署這邊來處理那我們會請職安署來找發展署那跟其他可能需要的部會跟財產團一起來做討論是就一個禮拜內可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15640.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15654.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
兩個禮拜好不好?兩個禮拜 蘇長說可以 你為什麼一直要幫他他就說一個月啦 他說一個月他說兩個禮拜啦蘇長講一個月 部長講兩個禮拜這顯然部長跟蘇長之間有某種程度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15655.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15657.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
不太有默契,有可能需要業批一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15688.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15713.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
好 謝謝主席 麻煩請洪部長請洪部長部長好 上次我有特別提到這個法人重建處副處長葉秀珊在調查期間向外部調查委員騷擾的事情也就是調查委員名單外洩這件事情請問部長有開始調查了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15717.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15734.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
各位很包那有萬一委員上市所關心的那個部分喔那我有親自跟沒有你就按照我會問題回答就好我說請問你們有開始啟動調查了嗎我有親自跟那個三個外部委員通過電話就是說他們確定是說這段期間沒有這樣的情形你說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15740.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15766.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
就是說在調查期間對不對 那個葉前副市長並沒有跟三個外部委員做接觸好那接觸有很多種有身體的接觸有電話的接觸也有信件的接觸那我們來看看我不曉得我先請教一下你現在是董事長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15768.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15796.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
執行長好那個那請教執行長你的接觸並沒有接觸你指的接觸是哪些範圍我剛剛列舉了很多就是說在這個過程中那他三位委員都並沒有接到那個葉前副處長的電話他只是說在這個過程中或許就有像委員剛才所提示的就是說那葉副我沒有我就問你啦我沒有要提示你什麼啦就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15796.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15810.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
你就講電話嘛好就是說你說沒有電話這沒有打電話這件事情啦沒有電話的接觸啦好啊其他你就沒有問了嘛所以你剛剛一上來你是告訴我們大家如果我沒有追問的話你就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15812.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15831.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
你問了你去查了沒有接觸所以剛剛剛剛執行長報告是這樣嗎你們的理解跟我有一樣嗎好如果我沒有在在分享的話對不對你剛是這麼回答我們還可以倒帶去看喔那個主席應該也是聽到一樣的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15834.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15862.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那那個我剛剛是問部長就是說部長應該呃在執行長上來之前你還沒有很清楚就是這件事開始調查這樣子是吧這呃在預防重現中心的幾個霸凌案的調查應該都是在執行長去年5月上任前就已經完成的事情已經完成調查去年好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15865.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15889.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
就算好現在算你們有調查好知道說有調查因為呢我們昨天也接到某位調查委員來向我們反映說你們有人打電話跟他詢問可能應該就是在講執行長吧好然後但是問的是葉秀珊有沒有電話聯絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15891.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15919.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
沒錯吧那所以剛剛特別執行長也跟大家報告沒有電話聯絡那調查委員呢他有特別告訴你們說告訴去電的人可能也就是應該是執行長吧誰有講誰被騷擾了而且是用email寫信的方式好那我們繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15921.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15939.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
因為這位調查委員呢擔心部長被蒙蔽那也擔心說在文字上的敘述會產生一些誤解所以呢本席只好再問一次那我們來看一下簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15940.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15965.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
葉秀珊在去年2月底被確認霸凌之後竟然在114年3月13日葉秀珊寫信給他們三位敬愛的老師的信件第一句話就說很冒昧寫這封信我無意針對調查結果有任何的意見我想再提醒各位上次我有特別問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15967.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15971.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
外部调查委员的名单是可以事先被知道的吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15973.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16000.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
那部長回說不行我想事先跟事後都不可以洩露名單那很清楚的今天葉秀珊自己提供了這樣子的一個留下了這樣的一個證據給大家好那我也不知道部長說了剛剛其實沒有人說謊他的確沒有電話聯絡但email算不算是另外一種聯繫好我們繼續看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16005.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16020.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
他雖然說我無意針對調查結果有任何意見但是他又講了一直在訴說他自己有多委屈自己有多麼的傑出目的就是要求要更改調查霸凌成立的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16021.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16042.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
但當時調查委員沒有回覆因為大家謹守分際知道不應該有這樣子的接觸於是呢葉修山在6月的時候再寫一封調查委員也一樣沒有回覆然後我們再看下個簡報11月18日這位被尊稱為敬愛的老師瞬間就變成被告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16048.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16051.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
而且要求要賠償賠償葉秀珊損失40萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16057.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16084.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
結果這個他在翻臉這個調查委員的時候呢就變成理由是未查證證言真偽違反調查倫理未回應原告後續申訴被告沒有更正報告內容理由竟然是他3月13日跟6月28日寫信要求調查委員回覆及更改調查結果沒有被回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16085.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16096.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
所以調查委員沒有善盡責任忽略他給的資料讓他霸凌成立這還沒完喔後面還有更令人吃驚的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16097.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16118.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
他指控這位調查委員沒資格擔任你洪部長提名的擔任的這個法人董事的職務用這樣的理由給他所謂的尊敬的老師告到法院調查報告是2月下旬完成的這位調查委員是5月2日兼差董事那怎麼可以告人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16120.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16131.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
未主動申請迴避這件事情難道沒有幫葉秀珊更改霸凌的結果沒有幫她更改這個霸凌成績的結果就沒有資格當董事了嗎今天呢照理來講這些都是應該你們自己去調查的但很好啊你們調查完結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16143.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16158.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
沒有電話聯絡喔其他聯絡接觸都不算喔如果今天我說照理來講這些你們應該都是你們自己調查好要呈給部長你那天上次我質詢的時候部長說我如果有什麼要提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16159.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16187.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
這是我們該去調查的事嗎這是你們自己內部的事情欸我還沒有講完喔這些資料一併給部長這些都是調查委員有正式email給你們的這個法人董事長執行長都有正式email喔那這些被騷擾的調查委員有尋求你們的法律協助這些請問部長你有沒有掌握這些資訊 你有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16188.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16208.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
因為我們其實都有提供法律的資源的協助給他們不是 你有沒有掌握這些調查委員跟你們跟你們求救跟你們反映這些事情你們有沒有提供不是說誰怎麼樣你就提供法律協助我不是講 我不是泛指所有的人我是講就這些委員部長有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16212.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16222.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
你知不知道到底有沒有掌握然後你有沒有協助他們我們是講其他人我就講這些委員各位說明第一個我們當然要協助這些調查的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16223.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16249.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我先跟委員講這幾件事情的層次這個霸凌案的調查存在調查出來以後霸凌成立存在也沒有因為這裡面任何的過程而去改變這件我沒有追究這個事情我在追究是名單洩露再來是去年的法人的幾個這樣子的霸凌調查的案件其實我們後來也做了人事上面的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16250.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16264.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
所以也沒有說你做人事上的處理你處理了什麼其實我們認為不一定是任的人員其實現在應該都你們處理了哪些人調查霸凌成立的對哪些啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16265.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16288.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
委員我們不好在這邊這裡面當然涉及到這個很多個案上面的個資的這個問題其實我不應該我不太瞭解你剛我問你說你們處理的一些人職務上的調度這些都是去霸凌人家的人是不是跟委員說就像委員因為你現在講的這個案子我沒有問你名字我不問你名字我說是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16290.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16316.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
這個就是經過的霸凌的職場霸凌的調查然後經過一個我們認為堅守要堅守程序正義的調查調查完以後確認假設有成立的話那我們當然要做相關的處理人事上的處理好沒關係日子還長得很我們一件一件來今天我就先處理這個名單外洩的事情因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16318.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16347.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
我也有在就是說在這個你另外一個問題還沒有回答我就是說這個調查委員部長到底是不是有掌握這個調查委員有沒有得到這個法律的協助有這個調查委員有好應該是說我們其實有把這個如果需要法律上面協助的話其實我們都應該提供他們法律資源上面的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16349.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16375.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我想因為上次部長有特別請我就是說提供這些被騷擾委員的資料那我又打電話那今天就直接給部長那我想事實的真相也都很清楚你們其實大概也都知道哪個委員哪些委員被騷擾了那我要在這裡再重新提醒一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16376.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16404.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所有的這個霸凌的被害者被霸凌的人還有出庭的證人還有按照不法侵害指引將葉秀珊調離主管職的首長再加調查委員這些人通通都被告所以我上次才會說搞不好我講完這件事下一個被告的會是我這些人按照常理判斷這些都是應該被告的人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16406.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16432.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
嗯但是他們都只要是只要是有遵守程序正義然後完成這相關的專業的霸淫的調查當然我們都不應該被要要要我想問一下部長的壓力大家會不會想說為什麼他有這麼大的底氣敢這麼做他有這麼大的底氣為什麼可以拿到這些名單我接下來我就是想追這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16435.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16439.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
所以他的誰手上可以掌握名單有哪些人部長知道嗎你可以能夠掌握調查委員名單的有哪些那你可以去刪那個消去法嗎你可以去你可以去了解可以去排除嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16465.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16489.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
这是你下一个功课我们可以来了解这个他知道这个调查委员的原因是什么可是我还是要说我们并没有因为任何这些这些发生过程里面发生这些状况就去更改这个霸凌调查的结果甚至是人事处理的结果人事处理的结果跟霸凌调查这件事情我们是很明确的我今天的重点 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16489.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16515.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
好你要這樣講我給你們肯定但是我今天的重點就是調查委員名單洩漏這件事情如果今天你沒有把那個源頭揪出來那後續會發生什麼事未來的這些霸凌案外部這個調查委員一個一個都會被騷擾一個一個都要跑法院不是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16516.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16545.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
我們會來盡量避免然後我覺得我們會把這件事情當然如果有相關的資訊的話我們可以再來瞭解但是我覺得最重要的事情是我們並沒有因為任何這個過程裡面發生這些事情不是你已經講很多次我們耳朵都很好我們都知道也沒有人怪你這件事情我就是緊咬為什麼調查委員名單會洩漏所以我說部長你下一個功課你回去好好查一查為什麼這些名單會洩漏我們這件事不是講完就算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16546.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16554.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
好不是嗎我們可以來了解一下是不是搞不好後面還有下一個葉秀珊還有下一個葉秀珊的長官包庇給他名單要不要去查一下到底是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16559.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16579.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
跟個人說明第一個我們沒有包庇這裡面任何一個被調查的不是啦你沒有調查清楚就大家就會認為你包庇我們沒有包庇任何一個被調查者我們沒有去改後面的包括因為他做了什麼事情就是說他叫陳立久不陳立部長要弄清楚我沒有說你包庇喔我是說他的誰有在協助他給他名單請你查清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16580.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16607.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
好我這部分就是為什麼他會知道明天這事情我們當然可以來瞭解對嘛你一定要查清楚嘛我們可以來瞭解這件事情可是我們絕對沒有包庇這裡面的任何一個被調查者對好啦我們就不要轉移焦點你只要查到為什麼會這樣好那如果裡面還有在亂栽贓沒關係我東西我們就慢慢拿出來大家等著瞧看要自己承認還是要這樣子很難看的拿出來好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16609.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16611.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
好,謝謝陳委,謝謝主席,謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16617.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16645.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
這個事還沒有吃完所以要微笑謝謝趕快便當給市長快點本會議詢答全部結束委員洪義祥、蔡春籌、蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做以下決定第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那本會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16646.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16647.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
好,變成我的其他規定 |