| IVOD_ID |
17326 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17326 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-08T08:36:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-08T14:25:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:48:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685676ba83bee9ba143696f162c81ae2c097a9d5466ed3f81401a4e472cad79af7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
討論事項
一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：
（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：
（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】
【4月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:50 - 14:25:00 |
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現在開會請主命報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員9人已足法定人數請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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立法院第十屆第五會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第四次全體委員會議事錄時間115年4月1日上午9時至14時52分地點群星樓801會議室出席委員林月琴等15人列席委員鄭天才等10人列席官員勞動部部長洪森漢及各相關主管等 |
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1453.745 |
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主席盧交集委員現依報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄議事錄確定邀請勞動部部長衛生福利部原住民族委員會就穩定原住民族就業改善低薪與勞動權益保障並縮小職業災害發生率及死亡率差距之執行現況與精進作為進行專題報告並被質詢邀請勞動部衛生福利部就 |
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1458.366 |
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1486.477 |
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開放家有12歲以下子女家庭進行申請外籍家事移工政策對本國勞工就業照顧體系負擔兒童最佳利益及相關權益保障之衝擊評估與制度配套進行專題報告並被質詢邀請勞動部衛生福利部行政院行政院人事行政總處權需部公務人員保障及培訓委員會法務部就職場把零申訴機制之檢討以研會信案為例如何建構員工心理健康與職場保障機制進行專題報告並被質詢 |
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1488.278 |
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本次会议由劳动部部长洪森汉卫生福利部政务次长吕建德及行政院副秘书长李国新报告后委员林月琴等18人提出质询军警劳动部部长洪森汉及各相关主管等及其答复委员高坚素美等三人所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报 |
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1537.054 |
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決定報告及詢答完畢 二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定通過臨時提案以下宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處議事錄確定本日會議議程為邀請環境部部長經濟部衛生福利部農業部就穩定供給局 |
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1539.125 |
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1566.028 |
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與檢索併進因應國際原物料波動資源物料穩定供應及我國檢索治理進程進行專題報告並備諮詢二 討論四項審查廢棄物清理法條文修正草案等九案二 審查我們的資源回收再利用法修正草案等兩案專題報告及法律案 |
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1566.547 |
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1593.25 |
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在綜合詢答方式進行接著介紹在場委員及列席官員黃勝旭委員林淑芬委員環境部彭啟明部長環境管理署環境管理署嚴旭明署長 |
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1595.203 |
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1614.414 |
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資源循環署賴盈盈署長環境保護是李雅文副市長化學物質管理管理署李秉雄主任秘書大氣環境是許仲豪檢論計政水質保護是簡良達檢論計政 |
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1622.23 |
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1633.597 |
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法治處張誠恩執行秘書經濟部產業發展署陳國軒副署長能源署顏維旭副組長商業發展署熊立恆副組長國營事業管理師邱萬金專門委員台灣中油公司許進榮副總 |
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1653.58 |
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1680.314 |
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臺灣電力公司黃美蓮專業總管理師衛生福利部食品藥物管理署江志剛署長中央健康保險署嚴嘉瑞副署長醫事師劉育金副司長農業部農糧署陳立儀主任秘書 |
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1683.507 |
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1703.719 |
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國際事務師鍾明娟檢任計政資源永續利用師杜啟華科長畜牧師鄭嘉鴻科長林業及自然保育署邱皇生檢任計政漁業署趙首堯檢任計政 |
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1711.093 |
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1738.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
內政部地政司 張翠恩專門委員建築研究所 阮忠劈主任秘書交通產業發展及國際事務司 林金生專門委員財政部國庫署 袁旭傑副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1740.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1769.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
負稅署吳秀琳專門委員法務部法制司林黛麗副司長國家科學及技術委員會南部科學園區管理局李信昌副局長產業及園區業務處張庭韻科長行政公共工程委員會技術處 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1770.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1798.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
蔡智昌简单记证金融监督管理委员会金融市场发展及创新处林文范专门委员援助民主委员会土地管理处廖益群专门委员公平交易委员会毛浩吉主任秘书 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1802.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1809.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
現在請提案委員說明提案要每位委員兩分鐘請林淑芬委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1821.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1830.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
謝謝主席 各位委員今天我提出了廢棄物清理法第71條的提案說明是因為現行的廢棄物清理法第71條規定非法棄置廢棄物的業者主管機關可以代為清除處理再向業者求償費用但是實際上我們根本都求償不到我們面臨到很多不孝的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1850.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1862.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他為了閃躲法律的求償義務呢他在被追償以前就把公司解散掉或者是宣告破產或者是把資產給轉移掉政府根本就追不到錢最後這些買單的都還是我們人民全民買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1870.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1889.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以這個廢清法看起來好像有污染者付費的原則其實是無法執行的那在這種狀況裡面我們看一下我曾經大修過這個土壤及地下水污染整治法它第43條就不一樣土污法第43條它講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1891.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1915.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
處理這個問題他明確的規定了公司負責人主要股東要負連帶責任那公司即便你消滅了責任還是在所以這個制度運作下來才會是有效的有恫嚇作用能夠遏阻的但是廢清法沒有一個相對應的規範形成了法律上的一個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1915.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1922.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以在這次的修法裡面我們就參考了土屋法的這個修立法的精神修法的重點有三個第一個擴大求償對象事業如果是公司組織主管機關可以分別向公司的負責人持股過半的股東或者是實質控制公司的人求償清理的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1938.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1963.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那公司就算合併分割或其他原因消滅了這些人的責任都不會跟著消失這樣子業者就不能夠再用把公司結束掉來逃避他的這個亂丟亂棄置這個廢棄物的這個責任特別是我們都知道都是非常不是一般人丟垃圾而已都是事業廢棄物亂丟的居多 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1965.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1969.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第二個我們明定了連帶的清償責任如果這個繳納義務人有好幾個大家要負連帶責任你也不能夠相互踢皮球我政府可以向任何一個人求償全額 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1980.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1989.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不管是負責人持股過半的股東或者是實質控制公司的人我可以向你任何人求償所以你別想要跑掉第三個要增訂這個滯納金和罰款費用與其未繳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1997.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2002.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
每天加徵千分之五的滯納金超過一個月你還是不繳的話還要繼續處20萬到100萬的罰款讓拖延繳納有實質的法律上的效果所以綜合這一次的修法我們希望大家在這一次這個球場機制上把這個漏洞給補起來讓污染者付費的原則能夠真正的落實而且我們都知道土法不足以自行法要制到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2025.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2048.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
能夠讓他不再閃躲責任要有恫嚇的作用如果這恫嚇的作用完全沒有的話我想這個法律就僅供參考而已所以我們與其讓汙染在那裡被汙染了然後達到再去整治不如讓防患未然先恫嚇讓他不敢輕易的汙染這才是正本清源的之道請大家支持 謝謝好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2052.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2064.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
接下來請環境部彭部長報告並就法案並案說明那也請經濟部產業發展署陳國軒副署長先做準備 等一下是換你說明來 麻煩彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2071.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2087.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
趙偉還有各位委員還有在場的各部位的官員那我今天來做我們的穩定供給跟檢縮併進的報告那另外一個就審查兩個方案的內容也跟委員報告因為兩個方案我可不可以十分鐘的時間做完整的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2088.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2114.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那第一個是我會報告這個全球遇到了什麼樣的大問題第二個我們如何去做減速然後我們的做好措施還有未來立法的這個過程那首先為什麼我們要面對這個行動呢因為我從小到大也經歷過石油危機1970年代雖然那時候還蠻小的可是都知道那時候我們遇到了很大的壓力可是從來沒有遇過每桶石油可以到達170塊美金的這樣的一個程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2115.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2143.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
雖然說現在跌下來了但是這個已經不是從景氣循環而是從地緣政治的風險來帶動這樣的變化那尤其是過去這三年這從2023年到目前為止其實造成那麼大的一個波動所以基本上很多的國家已經完全的推動大幅度的節能盛世之後大幅度的限制或是減少不准用使用塑膠袋的一個決定不過基本上他們的是原物料供給出了一些很大的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2144.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2169.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我們本部其實一直觀察到這個現象其實從去年我們就很努力的在做節能我們環境部的大樓從過去的這個前一年去年跟前一年相比減少了19%我們是一棟60年的大樓我們都可以這樣做所以現在我們就積極的透過永續長聯盟各個政府大概有90幾位永續長我們一起來推動做這個事情所以從1月開始我們就開始很認真的推 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2170.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2198.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那近期呢也會要求所有的部會都要跟我們一樣大型的去做節能節電的一個措施這個是一個減少資源浪費的一個很重要的一個做法那關於這個塑膠袋的用量呢其實這個議題都是大家很關心的那我們我自己前幾天呢在放假期間也很努力的去收集各個國家的政策目前呢台灣的這個塑膠使用量呢根據我們一年的這個手提式的塑膠袋大概用掉這個一億一百億個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2199.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2227.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
平均起來大概是384個到427個跟亞洲的國家像日本、韓國比較國情的是比較類似那當然我們還有很多在歐洲他們生活習慣或是法規比較明確的他們用量的確非常少最厲害的就是英國人均大概是8個手提式的塑膠袋手提式的塑膠袋那比較多的就是屬於在中國跟香港他們的生活的習慣就造成說他們一年平均一個人要用到3個手提式的一個塑膠袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2228.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2250.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那國際上因為聯合國有一個塑膠公約雖然過去這兩年沒有談成但是已經有一個很高的一個共識可能在今年的年底或是明年的年初會持續的來加速的來推動限塑的一個公約會存在那本部其實在過去一直推動減塑但是有很多不一樣的一個做法像我們因為這次 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2251.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2279.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們覺得我們不會有放棄這次因為整個塑膠原物量的短缺造成一個很好的推動的機會所以我們推動了代代相傳的計畫我們針對建國花市第二年來進行它的改造升級減少用塑膠第三個是創造誘因這次悠遊富悠遊卡也進來了每一個如果自己帶塑膠袋可以有五塊錢的誘因然後另外一個是感謝我們的食藥署來協助我們主動的告訴大家說用了很多食品容器它的塑膠或塑膠袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2280.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2297.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
要該怎麼用因為這個我們發現很多的民眾不大會用所以用了有些錯誤的造成一些民眾的這個健康的疑慮所以這個是我們現在新的做法首先是代代相傳其實我們主動的把供給跟需求做對接供給就是說像我們最近目擊到 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2299.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2317.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
幾萬個這個二手袋就會放在建國花市現在有一些需求端像市場已經開始跟我們做登記目前來說的話我們會因為很多的企業願意做ESG他會鼓勵員工把他的這個不用的這個環保袋二手袋紙袋全部捐出來讓大家來做這個使用我們會做好一個媒合的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2318.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2333.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
讓大家能夠來做那目前的這個工作其實有些縣市早已經在做了我們會擴大全臺灣一起來推動這個代代相傳二手帶著媒合的一個機制那我國的這個檢措的治理呢其實最為屢入是最困難的就是所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2334.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2348.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
攤商還有夜市還有各方面其實這個部分呢我上任之後就為了要解決這個問題所以我實際到到很多的地方去蹲點去看例如說林下夜市或是建國花市我先選一個可能比較容易達到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2349.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2379.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
有些地方是很困難一推就會被罵我也到了很多的市場去推動減塑其實有時候就是一天的活動而已那天我們去的時候會減塑我們不去的時候就又回到一個原狀為什麼會這個樣子這個是我分析五個原因第一個是因為我們推動攤商夜市等等的都是一個微型經濟這種成本的增加是非常敏感的所以基本上這個成本的對比他沒有辦法像我們14類推動要收費的攤商有這麼大的一個直接第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2379.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2398.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
是因為攤商要快所以他用的塑膠就是要方便為主所以對他來說用一個盒裝就會覺得不方便第三個是我們湯湯水水特別多華人文化麵水所以用的塑膠袋外帶所提示的就會多得很多還有一個就是外送平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2398.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2411.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為外送平台它要裝進去又要更多的一個塑膠袋包在一起避免漏出來最後一個就是我們的容器共享的系統雖然很想要做但是在很多的地方就是推不動因為這個需要成本到底誰來負擔這個東西這個其實是最困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2414.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2431.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以基本上我們發現這些雖然是一個困難點這個就是傳統華人社會造成的一些生活習慣但是還是可以做最主要做的時候我觀察到只要我們民眾有這個心願意去改變我們政府創造一個機制其實還是有可能的但是我必須要拉長一點點時間來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2432.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2447.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以我們目前呢減塑一定要公司協力來參與過去呢就是用限制來做使用我們現在呢要創造由誘因從綠色設計生產製造流通消費到資源再生裡面都要有一些新的做法過去限就是不能用 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2447.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2468.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
可是不能用裡面就造成很大的反彈跟衝擊現在我們希望用這樣的方式來做一個調整就是導入循環經濟的觀念那我們過去呢在2018年有推動減速的很多的一個做法那我去年年底的時候我們也透過網路各種的意見掙扎因為當時並沒有太多的很大量的一個社會的一個溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2469.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2498.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以有些成功有些也不成功所以這次我們後來經過民眾的想法我們認為時空環境在2026年已經不一樣了所以我們推出的是有一個減塑目標我們希望2030年一次用的石化塑膠減少5%這是一個很雄心壯志的目標因為這個是跟歐盟對齊的一個目標那這個裡面我們也增加了六大品項跟六大場域多了一些包含了零售通路這個等等公共場域都必須要來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2499.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2514.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
但是這個部分過去是用不准但是就會造成說我們集合各地方人力的一個問題所以我們希望用些新的方式能夠來改變特別是零售跟網購都可以顯著的一個減少那我們如何精進呢第一個我們現在已經針對綠色設計跟高風險的材質 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2516.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2545.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
做出一些限制包含了推動應回收的塑膠容器的綠色的廢綠導入進來例如說它可以再循環再回收那我們也同時也禁止含PPC的平板包材還有它的容器所以這個部分已經再實施了因為這個對我們民眾的健康是有很大直接的一個正面的一個效益那另外一個我們以建國花式我們不是只選擇這個這個是我們覺得可以到達一個點建國花式我們去年年初的時候只有大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2546.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2561.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
1.56%的人願意用塑膠自己的環保袋現在大概已經到10%但是我也必須坦承我們不推動的話又回到2%左右所以基本上我們發現大家願意來做來一起來推動而且攤商來配合我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2562.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2589.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個是可以成功的那我們做了之後呢也感謝這個悠遊卡公司也主動的積極來跟我們做合作把減量行為轉為實質的經濟的誘因那另外一個很重要的就是資源回收體系的重塑我們的蒐集分類完了之後其實他是可以用透過物理回收還有化學回收為輔然後我們會主動給他再生的料的認證然後跟應用端做銜接我們希望在打造這個循環體系是讓我們的塑膠的量可以又減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2590.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2617.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
另外一個大家最關心的化學物質管理因為PFAS的這個問題是國人認知但是生活裡面又不願意做得到的我們呼應的是戈爾摩公約已經限定有PFAS的管理行動計畫還有這個就可以減少還有包含的毒管法限制的塑化劑事實上我們也感謝上禮拜食藥署跟我們一起來告訴民眾一定要仔細的閱讀標示要定期汰換的舊品能夠減少塑膠 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2618.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2643.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
對我們國人的這個健康的容出的這個風險的危害那未來立法的狀況呢目前呢這個資源循環推奉法跟廢清法現在行政院初步已經審核通過我們近期很快的希望很快很快就是就會在行政院院會通過那這個裡面呢是完全升級的概念因為這個是原來是資源回收促進法我們加入了很多新型的概念在裡面這個最主要的是從廢棄物到錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2645.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2670.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
翻轉這個概念因為廢棄物就是錯置的資源我們把它全部當成資源來看待同時呢有在胡蘿蔔跟棍子的一個做法我們都必須統一的在做一個使用所以這個修法的重點呢資源循環推動法從生活轉型到產業的循環都有考慮到裡面那廢棄物清理法呢就是新興廢棄物的納管落實產業的責任例如說光電板風機的回收另外一個最重要的是二子 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2671.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2697.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
非法的氣質的這個問題所以這個呢我們會統一全部的統一的處理那委員呢很多有提供一些意見包含了馬文君委員跟嚴寬衡委員提出提出了這個關於清潔隊員的管理不過因為清潔隊員目前在地方自治裡面是屬於地方的事務恐怕沒有辦法在我們這個法裡面去訂定啦吼那嚴寬衡委員跟許智傑委員跟張歐路委員等等也修正第46條加重刑責遏止非法的氣質目前來說的話我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2699.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2714 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
提的草案也有把這個東西加入那也感謝剛剛林淑芬委員提出的建議我完全的認同唯一我們少了一項就是我們會再檢討說是不是可以到時候到院裡面審議的時候加入如果沒有交錢的時候再加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2714.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2740.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
再加法再加上這個致納金的等等的這個做法我們非常同意的這樣的做法那邱益穎委員也提出相關的還有劉建國委員還有陳冠廷委員都提出了處罰那我們建議通盤審酌一併的來進行修正那在資債法的部分呢許智傑委員的部分提出的還有盧憲宇委員提出的相關的內容我們也跟委員的立場一致建議通盤審酌一併的一個修正所以最後呢我用這張圖這個是我特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2743.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2762.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
因為過年完年大年初五我就跟我們的署長到歐盟去看他們的循環經濟的一個做法基本上呢全生命週期管理這個就是我們希望要做的其中有一個五個最大的核心修發五個大核心綠色設計產品數位護照維修權還有生產者責任還有綠色公共採購這個是我們是完全是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2763.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2791.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
歐盟去對接我們希望這樣的推動可以讓產業升級接軌國際還有解決我們國內廢棄物的危機所以這個是我們最主要想要推動的一個方向最後呢我們其實最希望就是邁入永續循環的社會因為這個其實要這個要大家一起推動如果我們強行只要求可以怎樣不可以怎麼樣這個會造成民眾很大的一個困惑我們認為一定要從源頭例如說塑膠公約的進展是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2791.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2809.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
甚至說塑膠唯一對我們環境每個人的危害是如何能夠擴大對民眾的一個教育但是最重要的是公部門還有企業一定要帶頭響應來推動做這個事情那這個裡面的如果宣傳法裡面可以通過的話將當政府有 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2809.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2835 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
更大的力道來推動還有包含了綠色設計跟源頭減量那最重要的是說如果社會能夠創造一個誘因可以創造這個機制這個是我們看到很多的歐美的國家或是先進國家他們推動成功的一個因素我們就希望說透過這樣的一個循環能夠讓民眾都可以理解減數是愛地球的才能夠守護我們美麗的家園以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝彭部長的報告下一位請經濟部產業發展署陳國軒副署長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2847.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2875.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
主席還有各位委員先進大家好那承蒙貴委員會邀請經濟部就穩定供給及檢索並進因應國際原物料波動及原物料穩定供應及我國檢索治理的進程提出專案報告本部緊就原物料穩定供應及檢索治理來這兩個面向跟各位委員做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2876.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2885.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
近期因為國際形勢的一個劇烈的一個變動對全球能源的供應及物價帶來了相當的一個衝擊導致國內產業供應鏈產生了一個波動 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2891.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2906.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
社會各界對於石化原料及塑膠製品供應的關注將由中央地方生產端通路端協力合作以確保國內原物料的供應不中斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2908.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2923.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本部現在也啟動了物價監控的一個相關機制也採用五大強化措施來進行辦理第一個就是上下游擴大生產以確保內需原料的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2925.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2940.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
足夠的一個供應目前已經協調台塑化台塑台聚同意足量供應國內客戶所需的乙烯聚乙烯來確保內需市場的穩定供應第二個那有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2943.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2965.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
生產原料還有配合增產還有調整品項部分以協調20家的塑膠袋包材及塑膠製品業者是市場的一個缺貨狀況適時來增量調整產量還有生產的一個項目並優先供應其所需的一個原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2966.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2985.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
第三 以新協調包括零售通路例如小北百貨 振宇五金等等全力供應塑膠袋以協助塑膠袋的供應增產的一個相關因應第四 建立通報網及專線媒合供料機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2986.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3014.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那有關通報網與專線的話有成立相關的單一窗口來解決業者的缺料缺貨問題那這一塊的話有賴於中央與地方攜手共同合作目前地方政府也有成立相關的物價穩定小組及聯繫平台那中央跟地方會通力合作來解決企業有關缺料缺貨的相關問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3015.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3035.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那上面講的是因應國際的部分來做短期的一個相關因應那在檢縮治理策略的部分本部還是長期會耕耘低碳轉型循環經濟及數位轉型等三大方向會透過專案計畫的一個資源來加速國內業者來優化自儲技術的一個能量並 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3042.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3070.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
兼顧開發永續與競爭力的產品與製品與其長期來減少原生塑膠的一個使用量另外本部也會配合環境部源頭減塑的一個政策鼓勵消費者養成自備購物袋的一個習慣並減少使用一次性的塑料用品共同維護環境的一個相關永續最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3072.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3095.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
因應目前的一個近期的國際局勢能源與石化原料供應帶來的一個衝擊經濟部已做相關上中下游的全面盤點以確保國內能源安全產業運作順暢民生物質供應穩定等幾大目標那後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3096.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3112.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
經濟部也會依行國家檢索政策跟目標持續來結束產業投入綠色技術與智慧製造兼顧永續發展與提升產業競爭力那以上是經濟部的報告進行執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3115.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3126.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好謝謝經濟部產發署陳副署長報告現在開始詢答做以下宣告一有關本次會議各項書面紀錄均列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3128.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3152.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
二 本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘 類席委員4加1分鐘三 十點半截職發言登記四 委員如果有書面質詢 請於三會前提出 預期不受理五 暫定十點半 休息十分鐘六 尋例本日不處理 臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員 定位群召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3160.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3161.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
麻煩彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3167.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3191.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
部長早今天我覺得把這個專題排進雙法來做詢問我認為事實上非常有必要因為這次國際局勢的一波動大家看到的是不只是我們的塑膠袋變貴而是臺灣的市場零售對一次性的一個塑膠的依賴事實上是非常的深其實因為這次要求我們要先穩原物料穩供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3192.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3219.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
也特別的要求醫材原料事實上是不能出問題這個方向我非常的支持也因為民生跟醫療一定要先穩住那我要請教部長的是因為因我們國際情勢的一個變動現在這些代代相傳的做法還是在示範 示範鼓勵的性質比較多所以部長你認為這樣的強度真的足以打破我們現在這個高度依賴一次性塑膠的系統嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3221.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3247.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
報告委其實這個有這個念頭因為我們在建國化市已經試驗成功了所以這次是完全升級擴大辦理所以包含了像那天上禮拜我們在建國化市就有一個第一銀行他們就主動捐了一萬六千個二手袋來那我們就開始在做分配所以建國化市現在如果去看的話當有大量的這種二手袋來說他們就可以選擇不用塑膠袋所以我們認為這是成功的而且跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3248.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3273.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
有些縣市這個東西以前有做過只是沒有那麼全面那我們會再發動各個縣市一起來推動所以這個已經不是一個這種示範型的是一個全面型的我希望環境部把這次的事件當成一個警訊因為讓台灣的檢縮不是靠我們的景氣的平穩的時候的一個宣導而事實上是即使碰到國際風險的時候還是有能力撐住的那個治理系統我覺得這 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3275 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3292.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你們一定要去做 因為否則像這次來的時候 那你們怎麼去因應 因為如果大家相傳 如果做的事實上是只是那個量體事實上是不夠的話 基本上你還是沒有辦法真正解決問題 所以部長我當然先肯定你願意面對政策執行的落差 從過去的單純 我們的純 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3295.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3316.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
近現用那現在調整成精準減碩跟那個循環經濟這個方向我支持可是我現在擔心的是什麼外界會不會把這個精準減碩解讀成方向有了可是真正執行的時候只剩下少數的示範少數的場域小範圍的KPI最後社會看不到進度的時候也沒辦法監督所以我要來問部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3318.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3336.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
環境部接下來會不會訂定這六個品項因為你從四個品項變成六個那你會不會訂這個六個品項的一個基準量跟年度的減量值以及六大優先推動場域的分工跟進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3337.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3364.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
包委員這個其實因為這個每一個都涉及到每一個營業場所它的這個使用所以如何以我們的經驗如何去說服每一個業者有這個環保的理念這個比一切都重要所以像我們在去年1月1號推動旅宿業檢授六小品的時候我們就發現大的都沒有問題但是就是有一些會反彈所以我們認為在訂定這個限制之前我們一定要完整的教育清楚讓他們知道而且不要造成他們經營上的負擔有一點過渡期 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3366.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3383.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以就我們的認知來說的話一定要把它變成是一個規範就像歐盟一樣不用講大家都知道那這個就會有機會會成功部長我剛剛問齊成你的進度怎麼因為如果沒有這些中繼的KPI的話你到了2030年2035年目標就還是容易停留在懸殖而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3384.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3405.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以為什麼剛剛問你說要講清楚來說明白了另外針對於電商跟我們的零售通路跟品牌商環境部下一步會不會建立年度的揭露跟那個分級的評比在我們這個資源循環推動法裡面我們要把綠色設計放進去那近期我們也在跟那個金管會在討論這個議題就是說循環綠 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3408.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3419.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這種循環率要把它寫進去它的永續報告裡面要把它變成一個強制性的所以這個就會造成說一個更大質變不然的話我們現在推的東西對它來說沒有任何法規可以去限制它 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3421.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3441.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
而且既然你的零售商品的包裝也已經進入到你的政策的重點了所以我要追問2025年到2030年我們的零售商品的包裝循環永續指引未來會不會有更明確的法制化的啟程而不是永遠停留在指引而且你會如何跟經濟部合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3441.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3468.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個部分其實是一定要定義一個規範啦我們會從這個他如果要用塑膠他的這個再生的循環的力量要定到一個比例來做那第二個呢是我們因為他有定這個比例我們會定義他是綠色的商品所以我們兩條用商業機制的手段來逼迫他們大家鼓勵大家往這個地方邁進那這個部分一定會定出相關因的指標因為還是期待你們不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3468.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3480.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
因為我們問題來的時候你前面的這一座的做法到底能不能去因應真的問題能夠解決問題所以部長再來想從我們的環境治理的觀點來看台灣檢縮最有意義的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3481.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3508.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我認為不應該只是剩下少用了幾個那個塑膠袋所以要問部長是說環境部現在最核心的是減塑指標嘛到底是後端最是後端的一次性的石化塑膠產品的總量下降還是源頭的原生塑膠的使用量下降包含產能管你的那個產能的控管以及透過再生料的一個使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3509.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3531.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
到底是哪一個其實全世界我們也比較了全世界減塑的時程都是第一個一次性的石化塑膠的產品總量那像我們完全這個部分是跟歐盟去做對齊的可是相較於未定案的那個塑膠公約喊出來我們就是未來2040年的減量75%不然你覺得現有的目標值會不會太低如何估算出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3532.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3555.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為這個是末端塑膠公約他訂的是末端的這個原生塑膠的使用量那我們上面的第一次性的是各個國家或是整個歐盟訂出來的塑膠的用量這兩個意涵不大一樣但是是有點共通性那我們會認為是說我必須說原生的塑膠使用量下降這是必然的必須的但是我們要有一定的方法跟做法才能達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3555.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3579.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
可是民間團體都一直在提醒就是說如果上游的石化產能持續擴張原生塑膠持續便宜的話那民眾再努力少拿一個袋子再努力回收都可能被新增的那個產量來抵消所以我還是要直接問部長說如果一次性的用品有減量可是但是原生塑膠產能的那個控管沒有下降環境部認為這樣是成功嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3581.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3602.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
基本上還是要從一次性的就原生性的這個塑膠的產量不過也跟委員報告因為我們臺灣其實有些的原生塑膠已經不在臺灣產了有些是靠進口有些是別的地方傾銷過來所以這個已經不是單純的環保問題是一個經濟的問題這個我們也必須去重視我也會問經濟部所以我希望部長在會後提供我 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3602.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3617.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就各自的那個基準年還有年度的KPI和品項的一個範圍和我們公開揭露的方式這個要麻煩部長這邊好沒問題謝謝部長接下來我們請經濟部代表那個產發署的副署長陳副署長來請陳副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3621.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3650.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
副總統已經公開要求我們的政府推動循環經濟跟產業的國際化打造一個綠色的台灣品牌行政院也把綠色成長跟淨零轉型列為重要的施政方向這個大方向我認為經濟部大家一定不能缺席所以這次的應急穩工的我能理解可是我想問的是經濟部在中長期上不會只剩下說缺貨就增產的這一套解法吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3651.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3667.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
不會這一個真的是一個短期的一個因應措施那長期的話我們在循環經濟從源頭開始來做綠色設計這個是我們在可是如果上游的乙烯產能還是在擴張甚至新 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3667.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3691.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
刺青的這種投資案還沒有用在我們的減塑循環經濟碳排跟市場需求一起檢驗的話那臺灣很容易就一邊談源頭減塑一邊又讓塑膠上源的那個上游的原物料繼續往上加所以我覺得這個提醒我不會把它簡化成反對產業可是我認為經濟部有責任回答說未來國營事業跟石化投資的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3692.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3717.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
會不會納入減塑循環材料跟市場需求跟碳排風險的整合評估我想這個長期的目標應該是我們一定會去做一個遵循的可是我最在意的是石化投資決策在產能評估是否有盤點必要的物質還有我們像譬如醫材基礎建設等用途明確替代性成本比較高的項目有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3719.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3723.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個必須要做一個長期的研究跟一個規劃那現在有在處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3725.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3753.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這一塊的話我是不是容我在那個會後再補充資料我覺得要真的要跟環境部一次性那個塑膠偵測那個減量來聯動 否則這中間的分配比例分配是什麼 石化原料供應順序又是什麼又是什麼 如果副長現在沒辦法回答 以便再會後給我一些相關的資料所以副長我緊接著就要問 經濟部在檢討這些事情上 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3755.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3782.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
現在到底有沒有自己的KPI而不是配合環境部委因為我看到經濟部不是完全沒有做像2025的優勢優良市場的那個平和已經把推動市場市集減少使用塑膠袋列進了我們的政策配合的項目裡邊所以經濟部到底自己有沒有一套自己的那個可追蹤可年度追蹤的減碩的KPI以及年度的揭露方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3783.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3800.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我想說在商業的話不管是商圈市場這一塊的檢縮我們這一定會來做一個加強的一個廣宣跟一個推廣這個我們會去來做一個推動因為如果經濟部沒有自己的KPI的話那檢縮就很容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3801.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3815.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
永遠停留在環境部在管末端然後管不到前端那經濟部只做一些輔導我覺得這不太恰當所以我覺得經濟部應該更往前一步把檢碩正式變成商業服務跟產業治理的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3816.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3842.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這我們來努力所以最後我想彭部長在這邊麻煩環境部接下來一個月內給我這些好相關的資料那經濟部也是包含剛剛副組長提的麻煩在一個月內兩個部會兩個都給我相關資料可以嗎部長可以好謝謝好謝謝林耀勳召委發言下一位請陳建威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3851.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3855.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝委員還有謝謝官員彭部長 謝謝麻煩彭部長這邊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3860.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3886.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
部長我先講就是我接到的一個陳情案在我們辦公室也就是有人在描述環關署呢裡面有兩個案子分別是兩位不同的科長但是他檢舉的是去年的8月中那今年已經到了3月我還持續收到陳情那我大概跟部長簡述一下這兩個案子第一個是在講一位環關署的孫信科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3888.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3914.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個數位執法科的科長他在這個稽查同仁的外套採購案的時候因為經費控管的問題主管會議直接大罵同仁但是他們檢舉說跟我們澄清說居然還讓他出來選一個模範的公務員另外一案是環平的科長因為公文超過4個小時所以在下班的時候傳訊息這樣子的簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3916.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3941.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
來做霸凌那我想問從去年8月這個看起來是有成立的時間檢舉的時間那到現在處理的狀況如何了因為這個是黃管署我們是他是獨立機關那這個案子我是事後才會才有知道那他們也有去調查不過因為那個當事人他並沒有認為他被霸凌所以這個問題要呈案還要一定的一個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3942.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3956.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以這個案子已經結案了嗎我會再繼續再追查因為報告委員其實這個有時候在公務機關這種有時候主管嚴厲一點點那種不舒服的那種案件還蠻多的所以我們有一定的一個程序在做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3957.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3980.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
您的意思是說這兩個案子分別是兩位科長但是經過調查這兩位科長所辱罵或者是說您說言語比較嚴厲的當事人兩位並沒有感受到應該是其中有一位不過因為這個是不是請我們署長因為這是獨立機關沒關係我是想請部長回覆說大概多久以內可以給我們進度您的調查進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3982.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4010.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
報告委員這一個陳情人他本身不是被霸凌的人他是看到別人所以他有反應那因為他沒有具名那所以我們就有啟動相關的霸凌的相關的會議或者是教育那這些被他講到的人我們也都有去調查他你有沒有被霸凌如果有有什麼管道可以來陳述他們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4011.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4025.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
以致說我們沒有被霸凌啦如果有的話他們會反應那我也有請外部的人來做教育訓練那訓練另外在9月16號我們也有再做一次全 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4026.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4052.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
全組的調查那所有的同仁都反應沒有那這是一個比較特殊的這一個組確實他是做反應執法的那這些同仁他的特性就是講話比較大剌剌的互相之間都是比較這個樣子那或許在這個部分我們在內部的教育訓練也在提醒以後講話的時候要客客氣氣要互相尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4054.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4071.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以這個案子目前目前的案子是到這個地方我先請部長回答部長因為呢他們是一個比較封閉看得出來嘛署長都已經說講話比較大剌剌好像跟我街道陳情不太一樣我可不可以請部長一個月內可以給我報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4072.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4095.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好 這個我們會再了解啦因為假使兩位科長沒有錯 我們也應該還兩位科長清白嘛 對不對那就請部長一個月給我這兩個案子的調查報告 謝謝也請委員放心 因為本部過去也經歷過嚴重的性騷擾事件這個我們清得很乾淨 我們有一定的程序但是有時候同仁的心裡面的感受會不太一樣所以那個都有一個程序來界定的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4095.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4105.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好 那再來我們就看一段影片不過我相信部長也蠻熟悉的很多人開始在網路上流傳他們去找這些塑膠袋等等的比原本的售價已經多了兩倍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4119.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4141.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那當然這是短期戰爭的因素可是我們不知道這件事情到底會持續多久那目前經濟部呢他有發布一個記者會他說他們會推出塑膠袋的評價專案具體的做法是等這個中油四清啊等等台塑啊企業去生產大量的這個5000噸的增產的乙烯讓下游的塑膠袋產量增產每個月會增加約12.5億個一斤的塑膠袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4149.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4169.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那這個跟您剛的報告看在環境部的眼裡你覺得經濟部這樣子來反映你的感受是如何包委你不能夠用這樣比喻他們是穩定這個民生的習慣讓國人不會民生不要受到影響那我們是要推動減碩所以這個基本上他有他的這個這個交叉點是不大一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4170.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4195.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
但是它跟你的減塑是相違背的基本上委員如果說市場上我們現在買什麼東西都沒有任何的塑膠袋那個其實民眾的習慣的改變這個是衝擊是很大的我們也必須理解但是我們限塑的這個作為減少使用所以我們是用鼓勵用二手循環袋要讓民眾因為其實會用環保袋的就會自己用了但是我們覺得不夠多所以我們環境部主要是推動這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4196.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4219.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
好沒關係那等一下我就具體跟你討論一些國外的案例那這邊呢您是推了一個代代相傳剛剛你有做講解嘛這個代代相傳的活動請問現在你過去配合的業者應該蠻多的就是不管是循環杯啊等等的現在已經發布了一陣子了請問大概媒合的廠家有幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4219.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4245.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
目前因為打電話來還有網路來的都蠻多的所以他們正在記錄那也跟我們報告那個是上禮拜四推出的在一個多禮拜的時間而已一個多禮拜大概幾家我們想知道一下精度因為我們會用量例如說現在有幾萬個了但是我們現在遇到一個挑戰就是說有些傳統市場他找不到那個人所以都要一個一個去連結所以我們一直還在討論說這個平台怎麼去建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4245.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4266.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
但是委員可以放心因為我們現在企業的業績我們收到的認同的蠻多的他們都願意來做這個事情那我問一下剛剛您講到第一銀行跟建國華市這個第一銀行的塑膠袋他們是怎麼募集來的透過同仁二手袋他們是二手袋我們沒有募我們沒有募塑膠袋我們是募二手袋例如說它是紙袋或是環保袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4267.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4287.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以他們在把它捐到建國花市去使用我跟你稍微講一下這個問題點在哪裡說不定你可以想出解決的方法你現在其實就是做兩個這個表單嘛一個是提出需求的表單另外一個是可以填寫供應那當然您剛剛講到說夜市攤商可能會需要可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4289.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4312.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
剛剛有提到經濟部都已經說他會做一個月12.5億個好第一攤商會覺得說經濟部會做第二他也要在意顧客的感受他今天可能他響應你這個政策可是要由他去說服顧客這個是很困難的這個是你遇到的痛點所以你會覺得你這個東西你幫自己病多久的時間以內你想媒合多少長假 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4313.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4331.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
委員這個是需要大量的推這個當社會的這個脈動希望委員一起來響應就會更多目前我們是很有自信啊這個目前這個媒合呢因為當時是趕快上線現在我們有新的做法像是一個撮合的平台甚至有一個Map一樣在哪裡可以取得我們都會做出來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4331.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4334.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那這個Map我就想跟你討論一下因為你已經推出了三個Map也是要稱讚比如說循環杯的介面這個服務是做的是不錯但是呢很少人用了點我在想你是不是考慮檢討那就去測點可是我覺得你不需要三個Map因為你現在已經有循環杯你有抗高溫糧食地圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4351.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4378.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那現在你又推出代代相傳這個地圖你要不要考慮把它全部整合在一起專屬於環境部的地圖這樣所有跟你們環境部相關的東西他都可以在上面找到我們現在就是往這方面去進行那你預計多久以內會達成這個現在要看他們的這個城市的進度因為同仁被我抄的蠻兇的所以我也不好意思給他們很大壓力所以其實這個是我們已經列入一個計畫要趕快推動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4379.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4382.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
可能半年三個月半年之類的應該是一兩個月內就可以推動了那當然這個你剛剛有自己承認你上任的時候說要啟動40處的減速事辦但是你上任是五月那你六月遇到阻力所以又說要一步一步來 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4395.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4416.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
但是到2024年的年底你又說2030年禁用的這個目標是不變可是呢到現在2026年年初了似乎是原地踏步那當然如果說你中間有點作為的話現在可能就不會爆發這麼荒謬的一個塑膠袋之亂可是你中間剛剛你有講你遇到五個瓶頸嘛對不對對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4419.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4429.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個我都去蹲點過委員你下次來跟我去蹲點你就知道遇到什麼樣的問題但是我知道你現在幫自己設定一個新思維新目標變成2030年減量5%2035年減量10%但是我給你看一下這個是經濟部的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4436.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4448.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
關於塑膠帶它的生產紫色的線是關於生產量因為有的是外銷的嘛關於粉紅色的線它是內銷量如果這個線的趨勢是這樣子你是如何幫自己可以訂出這個5%跟10%的KPI |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4452.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4469.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那個是我說的是一個塑膠的原料的使用量不是塑膠袋那你也知道說我們這當中過去這幾年遇到一個疫情整個臺灣社會結構性包含網購或是外帶的這個整個量大幅度的一個增加所以那個都是塑膠袋增加的一個很大的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4469.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4496.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那我具體的舉一個例子給您因為比如說臺灣新加坡或者是馬來西亞或者是香港可能大家在這個夜市啊攤商消費的習慣是差不多的有一些做法我是希望你不要遇到事情是修改你的目標修改目標你可以修改你的做法委員你剛才說的那個是2018年訂的那個其實社會的沒有經過充分的社會的驗證那香港呢是比我們多了三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4497.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4522.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
香港比我們多了三倍 我不認為香港 當然我現在沒辦法去香港啦但是我不知道他們現在做的怎麼樣 像新加坡他們其實是超市都一樣的限量沒關係 我先幫你找資料 我們不一定人要到那邊好不好 我先跟你討論一下香港他們怎麼樣他在減速的過程他就下了法規那當然他有正痛期嘛 他需要二到三年或者是最後呢 最終他們需要四到五年他們才真的開始限速跟減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4523.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4553.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
當然比如說你講的一次性備品一開始很多人也不習慣他去外面旅遊的時候突然都要開始自備牙膏牙刷可是現在你做了一陣子這經過震動期之後現在每個人出去旅遊都知道了那我是舉香港的例子看您要不要參考這樣子的做法他一開始他是規定說他知道大家買東西很不方便所以你剛有提到的湯湯水水生鮮的會滴水的比如說魚或是肉他會提供你沒有提袋的品口的袋子 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4554.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4562.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
可是一開始大家就會發現不管我有沒有買生鮮的或是會滴水的我就是想去拿那個袋子這個是人性所以他們反而這個提袋的減量了可是蘋果的塑膠袋大幅的上升因為不管去買菜或是買蘋果大家也去拿這個蘋果袋子用所以後來他們就發現這樣子的問題他們又再把法規收緊就規定說如果你這一單交易是生鮮的或免他就給你一個蘋果袋子 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4582.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4600.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
但是如果呢你最後需要這些乾貨或是水果他是不需要那就才需要到收費或者是你就自備環保袋所以看你要不要這樣階段性的因為你剛剛提出來很多原因他不一定是每一個東西都使用他有的是乾的他不需要袋子 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4600.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4626.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
包委員因為香港的這種所謂的攤商夜市還有零售的沒有像我們那麼多這個香港做的我們早就做了我們的所有開發票的都必須用這個付費取得所以我們比他更前面我懂但是你會遇到一個痛點現在你怎麼好意思他們大部分都是現金交易所以你不會讓這個要收錢付費的塑膠袋的這個責任流落到攤商的老闆的身上所以委員那個我也特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4627.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4642.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我清明年假花了很多时间去看每一个国家的详细的政策日本韩国新加坡香港甚至中国他们对于最后一里路的零售其实都没有去做直接的影响因为它是微型经济有很多的因素在里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4642.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4659.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好那我就提出一個建議啦好第一比如說您剛提到的費這個太陽能光電把它回收那業者他就要預先繳一個大約1000元的回收清的處理費嘛好再來環境部非常驕傲的四合一資源回收基金他就是這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4660.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4683.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
查理王這些瓶子他就必須要繳交這個空瓶的處理費這是擴大生產者的責任還有汽汽車燃油的空污費你不可能去攔下每一台車子然後跟阿伯收錢所以你會直接向中油台樹這樣子的財團有品生產者來收空氣污染防治費所以在這邊是具體跟您建議因為剛剛講了很多源頭源頭所以我們是不是要從源頭來 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4684.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4707.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
科稅讓生產者來延伸責任比如說我們用這個稅金來輔導塑膠袋工廠轉型為生產環保的包材同時讓傳統的塑膠袋在市場的批發價自動提高攤商自然就會減少使用他可能就會去輔導我們購買的人說你可以把這些東西全部放在一個袋子裡面你覺得這樣子我不是在吹現在就要做到這一波 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4708.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4725.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這一波塑膠袋之外這一波石化業成本上漲這一波結束之後你覺得環境部有沒有辦法跟經濟部一起動起來啟動對塑膠袋源頭瞌睡的可行性評估好這個我們會來研究不過也跟委員報告我們針對有開發票的早就已經使用者付費了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4726.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4736.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
現在大家爭議的是市場上最末端攤商不開發票的很多的微型經濟全台灣很多人都在靠這工作我知道啊所以我在跟你說我在跟你說從源頭兩分鐘謝謝馬上所以這個部分不可能永遠從末端去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4742.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4757.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
去做開刀嗎這個很多的庶民他的生活行為雖然我環境部長我是認為是能夠自己帶環保帶我們也不會用塑膠袋可是很多民眾的行為當他不了解的時候他還是很依賴所以這個部分是需要文化的轉變那我們會跟經濟部來討論說如何去 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4759.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4784.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
請問這個可行性評估大概多久以後可以取得因為這是一個很長期的因為這個是庶民經濟很多的弱勢的人或是一般的人都是在市場上工作的所以你要他成提高大幅提高的成本像這次增加一點成本他們就受不了了所以基本上我是認為是要再討論那我們也會再觀察因為這些每一個我找出那個問題就直接提供好這請環境部提供報告因為已經超過好謝謝好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4789.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4813.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
好 謝謝陳金輝委員發言 那接下來請邱惠璐委員發言主席各位委員同仁 各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4815.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4830.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好部長好部長好部長我今天想跟你交流廢棄物回收的問題好那我們看一下廢棄物清理法呢有提到說業者呢他要申報營業量然後呢根據這個營業量呢來繳納 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4833.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4854.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
回收處理費用那這筆回收處理費用會被納入一個叫做資源回收的基金那我們看右邊這張圖他是立法院的預算中心113年所提出的一個決算報告那這張圖有五項廢棄物這張圖顯示出來說這五項廢棄物的營業量都遠低於回收量 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4862.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4885.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
營業量遠低於回收量有一個訊息出來了可能有營業量短報的問題那第二個問題也出來了營業量如果短報可能會讓我們剛講的資源回收基金發生虧損的情形怎麼說呢因為營業量他其實是反映業者根據他的營業量所支付的回收處理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4886.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4900.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
從基金的角度來說這筆費用可以視為是收入好那回收量呢他可以反映出實際回收量為了依實際回收量而支出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4904.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4923.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
實際回收處理費那這個就基金的角度來說它是一筆支出那當收入很少支出很多那就形成了一個叫做入不敷出的現象那就是我剛講的可能我們的資源回收基金會有虧損的情形那請問一下部長您認同嗎從這些數字的解讀您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4926.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4933.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
包委員這個是一個大水庫啦每年的狀況不一樣要看回收的我是不是請我們主管基金的署長來回答可以可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4934.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4956.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那各位報告那我們在基金的部分我們都有一個定期的去查核他的一個申報情形那如果是查到他這個申報不實的話我們就會就是會移送強制執行叫他來來那個吹角那甚至說我們有些是檢調單位去調查說他回到申報我們在那個紙餐具就有幾個這樣的例子因為紙餐具他的討論型是嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4956.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4977.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那除了這個執行方就是稽查的方式之外我們在那個積蒸的方式部分紫餐具呢後來也改為從我們的紫餐具的這個成型業者改為救援課費那這個救援課費呢在去年有經過一些充分討論所以我想在每個項目像紫餐具那未來他就可以在這個收支平衡部分就有很大的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4977.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4996.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以兩個問題第一個問題就是您提到說紙餐具你們現在有用一個叫做救援管理去處理嘛那所以導致這種短收的情形就比較不會出現那其他的4種物品也想進行私企以後會往 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4997.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5018.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
廢紙餐具救援科稅的管理嗎救援管理的方式去處理嗎跟委員報告那像我們的塑膠的話主要是像那種平板的那個那種容器的話比較不容易徵收因為他的那個業者他可能有些是不開發票的所以我們也後來也有檢討到那個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5018.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5034.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
在那個一些平板的業者就是讓這個商品的業者來繳費所以在繳費的一個激增的技術上面我們就會就每個業者的樣態來進行改善對好那你剛已經有提到了就是不同的樣品有不同的處理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5035.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5058.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那反正條條大陸通羅嘛不同的樣品可能要用不同的方式來管理那希望你們能夠確實的用不同的方式來管理因為這個並不是太遙遠以前的報告這個是113年做的決算報告那我想營業量短收就是會造成入不敷出然後就是會影響我們的基金的這個狀況那所以現在基金的狀況是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5059.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5080.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
目前我們在這個整個收入就是因為我們現在有公告四大項那這些物品容器整個收入是總體是平衡的那當然就是您提到有幾項有些個別他是有入不敷出的情況那這個部分就是從一個就是個別項目的加強去做那他可能有些幾年的這個基金不平衡情那我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5081.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5107.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
盡量讓他在檢驗時間可以達到平衡好那你剛提到的某些項目有不平衡的情形可不可以把那個資料給我們讓我們進一步了解這第一件事那第二件事當然您剛有提到說如果有營業量短收的問題那其實根據廢棄物清理法的規定它就是一個不實的填報那不實的填報你有提到強制執行嗎好那我想強制執行當然有兩個手段第一個手段就是要業者你要跟他追繳費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5108.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5136.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
然後第二個就是會有一到三倍的罰款那您提到強制執行的部分是強制執行我的問題是追繳費用聽起來有那請問有開罰嗎這邊在紙餐具還有我們有些業者有開罰有 是有開罰是不是我們這個會後再把資料給委員這邊可以那所以聽起來是紙餐具有其他是沒有嗎紙餐具是一個就是他那個就是欠繳情形比較嚴重的那其他也是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5136.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5156.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
也只有那可不可以一併的把資料完整的讓我們了解一下是好ok那接著呢我來問請回那再請部長我想問你再接下來是想問光電板的回收那光電板呢他如同我們剛剛講的一般廢棄物他也是要跟業者也是要跟經濟部來繳納回收處理費用那 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5158.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5177.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
使用的標準呢是每千瓦一千元所以經濟部收取了這個費用之後他會把這筆錢納入再生能源基金然後經濟部從再生能源基金再拿一些費用出來補助環境部去進行光電板回收處理的業務那但是呢比較可惜的是行政院的主計 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5178.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5201.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
月刊提出來說如果你每千瓦收1000元的話其實到了2045年你只能夠收到173億但實際上支出成本是397億所以這當中有200億的落差那於是呢就會讓我們產生一個想法那這不就是如同我們剛剛所言的嗎又會出現入不敷出的情形那部長不知道您怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5201.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5218.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好委員因為這個光電板大量產出應該是在127 128還有10多年的時間那我們是從108年開始收那的確那時候訂的就是1000塊那當然現在如果像去年有大量的產出但是他沒有用到這個基金是他自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5218.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5235.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
必須去付費去處理掉當成廢棄物去處理掉所以基本上目前如果未來的量夠其實那個費用就會往下降現在因為量很少就100多噸其實怎麼做都划不來所以相對的這個目前一年大概只有到目前為止只有支出7000多萬而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5235.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5262.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
您確定是100多噸嗎?因為我的辦公室有去函問環境部然後我們問說從108年5月到去年12月這些廢光電板的處理狀況如何?他們回答說總清理量是6074公噸那是天災天災是業者付的這個是自然到使用年限之後淘汰的天災是業者自己要去處理費用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5262.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5290.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以這裡的6074億當中你的意思是有些是天災所導致的太陽能板的耗損然後它的回收處理是業者要處理那可以讓我們知道比例嗎因為這裡就一個數字6074我們也無從監督說有多少是來自於業者自行處理掉有些是用我們的所謂再生能源基金去處理可能要資訊透明化我們才能夠進一步來做一些比較有效的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5291.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5307.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
對委員這個其實是有一個長期的趨勢啦所以現在目前還沒有到當然未來我們的這個未來的這個志願循環推動法裡面我們希望這個部分是由我們環境部來處理做這個事就跟回收基金是一樣的就不用現在那麼麻煩我們要到能源署那邊跟他們申請經費來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5309.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5327.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
了解所以這也是我下面要問你的就是說再生能源基金我們很好奇說每年補助環境部多少錢那實際支出的費用又多少那會不會有這種入不敷出然後最後變成要從資源回收基金去挖泉來填補這我想這是我們人民比較關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5328.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5356.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那跟我們報告那目前在太陽能板的回收基金呢是由能源署這邊用他的法規是徵收的那現在累積是20億元那我們現在在有一些就是我們現在把需要用的一個費用呢就跟能源署用申請計畫的方式然後跟能源署由他的經營來提供給我們譬如說我是要補貼費或者有些行政管理費用是所以你說的20億是他給20億是他全部收的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5357.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5375.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
你說再生能源基金裡頭有20億再生能源基金有20億那我們這邊好奇的是那他補貼給你們的實際費用多少那你們有沒有足夠夠用或不夠用的問題因為我們擔心萬一不夠用挖東牆補西牆這可能也是我們要關切的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5376.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5397.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那有資料嗎如果沒有資料就匯後給我盤整一下匯後給我那當然我有注意到部長您非常關心光電板回收的一個費用的問題您覺得也不夠高所以需要提升甚至如同你所說的可能都需要修法你剛剛有提到但是從您有這個態度一直到現在應該也快一年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5397.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5414.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
可是我們現在光電板的回收還是維持在每千瓦一千所以代表從過去一年到現在還是有點原地不動的感覺那當然今天早上我有提名的報告嘛你只想積極的推動把光電驗板納為因回收的廢棄物然後把它納進去廢棄物清理法的一個管理範圍那才能夠可與僱主回收處理的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5424.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5450.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我想我有聽到這個你的最新進度啦只是說因為當時你說第四會期就要處理結果我們現在第五會期雖然早上有聽到說已經行政院會通過了但是好像還沒進入立法院的大門嘛所以我們期待你趕快讓這部法進入立法院的大門因為據我了解很多立委真的是在幫環境部心急也要提出一個跟你們類似的版本那我覺得經過一年的漫長等待因為九月你們還發新聞稿心事旦旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5454.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5466.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
10月卓院長又指示了 長官指示下來那特別卓院長一直把行動內閣奉為規約嘛那你總不能說他號稱行動內閣啊你這邊不動內閣好像就有一點這個說不過去所以希望你們現在已經院會通過了院會還沒通過行政院會還沒通過快要通過那請問一下送到立法院的時間表今天能夠呈現出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5482.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5498.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我必須因為行政院會還沒有開我不能說今天說什麼時候就怎麼樣但是目前已經最後一個程序了那目前委員跟委員報告因為這個循環法不是我們環境部的格局已經到達一個整個跨部會整個行政院的層級所以它的確比較複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5500.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5518.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
要跨單位的協商而當中也遇到一些土石方的這個事情所以推出的時機我們也稍微考量了一下那剛好現在等於是水到渠成我們認為這時候我們希望盡快就到貴院您認為天時地利人和條件有了嘛有天使嘛有天使的條件嘛那我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5519.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5540.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
在不久的將來你可以給一個稍微思考給我們一個比較可以期待的數字比較可以期待的數字這就是我要這個呼籲我們的這個環境部就是說因為您這個訴求已經歷經了快一年了那我們都在等待那我們期待政府不要開出來的支票就是跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5541.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5552.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
特別是這個回收的這個基金已經有虧損的情形那如果再一天拖過一天可能財務黑洞就會越來越大那所以也希望經濟部環境部這邊積極一點消滅這些經濟上的一個赤字所以這邊有一些數據要請這個部長這邊來提供那當然剛署長嗎 請問是署長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5564.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5582.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
署長也有答應我們要給一些資料那除此之外可不可以把這些營業量短報嘴角跟裁罰的資料送過來還有就是我提到的就是每年補助多少錢經濟部補助多少錢給你們然後實際支出多少錢那再來就回應到部長你最後講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5583.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5589.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
已經水到渠成了 天時的條件已經出現了那現在就缺人和嘛人和就是你這邊加緊腳步一點不知道是三個月還是六個月會進入立法院的大門可以給我們一個答案嗎就盡快 快要了請在書面報告裡頭再給我們一個比較詳細的數字好嗎一個任舉 三到六個月或什麼不用不用 不用 就是委員很快就會看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5611.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5622.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好謝謝部長那我們就一起努力來為這個廢棄物的回收盡一份心力這樣子謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱惠璐委員發言那接下來請王玉敏委員發言謝謝主席我們有請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5637.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5652.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
網友好部長好 部長我請教你全球塑膠公約它大概預計要減少多少的塑膠污染要減少多少的產量你們現在掌握到的訊息當然是 我記得有一個數字是75%產量是75% |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5656.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5672.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
污染是80%對對對就是說有一個這個數字但是因為過去這一年一兩年他們談都沒有談出一個結果尤其是產油國啊各方面所以我們但是他各國的這個協定可能是在年底或是明年應該會就會有一個方式出來對 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5673.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5677.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個是它訂出來我覺得是一個蠻高標的那在這樣的情況底下我們要跟國際接軌那我去看一下現在整個環境部你訂出來的目標2018年當時的環保署是要全面禁塑的它2030年是全面禁塑它其實是在亞洲它其實是喊的最前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5695.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5707.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
但是現在看起來這個部長你修正了你在去年底其實已經把這個全面禁售其實已經取消了你現在的目標是2030你的目標只有減量5%2035減量10%那我要請教部長的是如果按照你這樣的一個目標本席認為是過低啦對照全球塑膠公約它即將要減少的這個量跟污染的話我們差很大的距離耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5724.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5727.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這樣我們跟國際接軌不了你可能沒有辦法去參加國際會議了包委員你可能對這個數據有點誤解這個是5跟10是10化的塑膠的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5737.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5765.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那你 塑膠公約對 你可以換算成它的產量跟汙染你的比例是多少這個要去對照一下因為一個它們的強調是塑膠袋你們沒有對照嗎你們一定要對照啊你們應該早就掌握這個全球塑膠公約它要求這個標準嘛那你自己現在已經估這一個你如果說是原生塑膠的量你把它換算成就是它的那個產量你這樣的占比大概是占比多少包委員這沒辦法 譬如說現在我這個螢幕這個也用到塑膠啊那這個就不是塑膠袋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5765.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5784.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那這樣你兩邊怎麼核對不一樣因為那個塑膠工業他訂的是我舉例塑膠工業他連那個耳棒用塑膠他都禁止他有很多的品項那他用那個品項弄起來跟生活有關的他會去禁他我知道我現在要問你的問題就是那你自己訂了一個你是這個原生塑膠的這一個百分比 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5785.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5793.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你將來怎麼去跟國際接軌就是說這個全球塑膠公約他要求的是產量跟污染他已經定在那邊了你必須轉換成那個數據啊要不然你將來去參加國際型會議的時候你的報告跟他的要求你總是要轉換成說在你們的標準底下台灣目前譬如說我的產量我已經確保我可以達到50%或60%我的污染我可以達到譬如說60%或70%嘛那這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5814.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5835.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
你去出席國際會議跟國際評比起來人家才知道說你台灣我們的現況在哪裡嗎不是嗎報告委員我們說的是剛剛你那個5或10是一次性的石化的塑膠的用量那是整個例如說所有的東西都有我們是2030到5然後2035到10%那這個是完全是對盟歐盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5835.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5862.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那這個塑膠工業它是針對某些產品例如說我剛才說的耳棒然後很多小小的東西我們看了也嚇一跳然後甚至的塑膠袋如何去用量都有定業限制那兩個是不一樣因為每個國家像我們台灣會產製出這樣的螢幕塑膠袋塑料的用量就特別多我們就希望這個比例一次性的能夠降低然後多用一個再生的回收的這個料來做處理所以這兩個意涵我們都會去遵守但是不大一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5863.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5876.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
是啊 是不太一樣但是你總是要讓人家理解台灣我們現在做到什麼程度嘛 對不對所以你換算起來你要做的就是譬如說產量的部分你希望可以減量到多少因為像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5878.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5897.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
環保團體他們都會有一些指標包括紙容器、塑膠袋或塑膠殘具這個是他們觀察我們有沒有減量的一些指標會有一些項目的那我覺得你現在你應該自己也要去把這一些設定出來比如說這一次我們看到因為這個美伊戰爭經濟部他就要增加5000噸的這個最上游的這個原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5903.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5912.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那我要問的是這五千噸它變成產品之後有沒有估算過它最終最想增加的是什麼就是塑膠袋對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5913.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5941.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就是塑膠袋那這一個我看到媒體問你你說這個跟你的減塑政策沒有背離我覺得在回答這件事你可能要先去問說因為這一波有一部分是恐慌性的囤積那你有沒有經濟部經紀有沒有代表有沒有估算過就是恐慌性的囤積加上現在的增產跟原來沒有美以易戰爭之前你的總塑膠袋的產量是增加還是減少有估算過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5944.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5966.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
跟委員報告因為之前的話有些是從進口過來因為現在國際局勢進口那一塊現在很多都已經不進口了所以就會變成是台灣的內部自己要去生產所以你們有沒有評估過那個總量跟這個戰爭之前到底是增加還是減少還是一樣目前我沒有這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5966.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5988.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你們沒有掌握嘛對不對那這個就是問題啊所以這個當部長你要說這個並行不備的時候恐怕不是喔如果他的總產量是增加的因為有些人是過度囤積了導致市場的缺貨在這樣的情況底下他就不是並行不備而是他的源頭坦白講是增量了所以這個部分我們來看一下我還有另外一個數據喔就是國內生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5991.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6020.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟那個進口量的這個比較就是我們的進口額 這個經濟部也要回答一下我們113年喔 是4407百萬美元然後114年呢 增加了11%那我要問這個經濟部的 就進口的這一些塑膠到底是哪些用品就是在哪些類別 可回收的佔比例多少然後會變成垃圾的佔比例多少 這個你們有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6022.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6047.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這委員這個是不是容我那個會後再提供說明好所以也沒有掌握好那所以你可以看到我們從源頭經濟部是主管這一些我們的塑化原料還有生產製造的源頭端我們進口多少然後是什麼樣類的產品如果經濟部沒有掌握那環境部有掌握嗎你知道哪一種類別就是增加的很多嗎這增加11%增加哪些類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6048.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6074.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
包委我們對於這個因為這是上游是經濟部的工作我們是對於回收體系的衰退我們有注意到因為目前全世界因為這個永續的這個議題有受到一些波動簡單沒有影響但是這個回收的體系因為很多的例如說國際知名的大牌他不用添加的再生的力量的比例往後延了包含可溫可熱等等所以的確回收體系有受到很大的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6075.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6081.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
然後包含他的這個費用他可以回收的錢錢就沒有誘因了嘛所以就造成整個衰退這個是我們有注意到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6083.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6087.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
對 所以我要講的是我們現在在整體的這個塑膠一個就是說我們跟全球國際的接軌我們這個部分我們要急起直追就是如果2040這個國際公約是要這樣定的話這樣那個是有非常高標的我覺得我們現在台灣距離這一步其實還非常的遙遠所以環境部責任重大另外一個就是說我們對於整體塑膠的源頭的管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6107.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6122.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
然後從自己生產也好或者是進口也好我們從源頭其實我們都沒有做一個很好的這個監督跟控制你根本不知道進口多少流向哪裡然後回收多少所以你總體的控制就是控制不了我覺得這一塊我要求這個環境部跟經濟部你們必須做出一個檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6128.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6151.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
就是針對源頭我們到底總量減少多少然後我們到下游之後可以回收多少還有這個環境部還有努力的空間剛剛你一再回答委員說我們有我們的國企所以這個小吃店啊 攤商啊這個佔了六成的塑膠袋好像就一籌莫展了 沒有辦法但是有時候危機是轉機啊這一次剛好因為就是缺貨 有一些缺量 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6151.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6169.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那所以你事實上在市場方面包括經濟部你可以請業者他就是做減量提供減量提供這個是可以做到的鼓勵大家多用環保帶特別是那種塑膠袋塑膠袋沒有一定必要就那種手提的就市場最多這種然後就拿走這種拎著我們一方面鼓勵這個環保帶但是如果是那種類型的缺我個人覺得反而是你們去宣導那就是多用環保帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6179.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6204.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
減量那一塊的那一個一次性手提那種塑膠袋嘛這個其實反而是一個推動的契機啊而不是說缺不管市場缺哪一樣我一律都提供這是不對的依裁一定優先提供包裝的你說醬油礦泉水那種一定要的包裁那也沒有辦法但是我個人認為市場上那一種塑膠袋真的本來就是我們減塑的目標不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6205.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6233.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個應該好好去推動因為他們製作乙烯就我的了解是給這個食藥署醫材的部分這救命然後我們生活上譬如說吃東西吃個包子現在國內習慣還是必須用這個不用自己帶容器自己還是要一個塑膠袋所以他們是不要讓國人生活太大的衝擊那對我們來說就是全面的減我舉例像立法院委員你可以來推動立法院我們待會發便當多少個塑膠袋我們也可以來推我們環境部自己就來推 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6234.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6260.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
但是我們需要推的更多所以我們現在在社會整個風氣的轉變裡面我們的確訂了一些計畫來推動也希望委員可以支持我覺得我們檢縮的力道真的是差國際還有一段距離請大家加油然後要做一個檢討報告接下來我要問一個是垃圾的問題部長你曾經承諾兩年之內要移除全台48座垃圾山現在還有33座也就是你大概只有做了兩成五 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6261.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6288.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那最近這個南投的議題看起來這個環團的抗爭還有地方政府的問題這個問題我沒有看到環境部的角色事實上當時看這個彭部長你也去過南投你當時講了一句話你說不能只要台積電不要焚化廠而且有一些焚化廠它是現代新型的再生能源焚化效率很好很乾淨這個都是你講的而且不會製造汙染 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6288.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6300.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
但是現在看到南投的這個要設焚化廠 當時你也去看 你看起來像是支持的那現在你又說支持總統的雞尾酒療法但雞尾酒療法到底是什麼呢 它可以解決問題嗎到目前為止 環境部的態度是如何要支持地方政府去蓋嗎 還是就是要走雞尾酒療法 總統講的那如果是走總統講的雞尾酒療法 到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6314.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6339.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
到底是什麼第一個是說南投是全台灣沒有垃圾處理設施的地方所以這個是我們去看的草屯他們堆置如山那你剛才講到了33座垃圾山其實目前我們有信心但是南投現在大概有9萬多噸裸露在那個地方我們希望他們可以解決我們會督促他們要補治怎麼解決基本上目前本來不是你去看了也覺得可以有焚化廠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6340.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6363.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我沒有說可不可以因為目前這個焚化廠要不要蓋是屬於地方自己環評自己的事務但是他因為用到一間農地所以他到時候送到內政部區委會的時候會到我們中央部會表達意見那我們當然態度會是嚴格審查會不會空污的影響等等這是我們的態度這是我們必要的一個程序農業部也會表達這個意見所以目前其實這個態度是地方的層次還沒有到我們這邊來 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6364.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6382.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那所以中央你對於因為這個是在解決垃圾問題嘛中央的態度到底是支持他可以設立但是嚴格把關然後禁止污染的方向還是其實你們現在已經跟總統一樣就是反對就是覺得根本不需要有機會有療法就萬事OK了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6384.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6399.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
雞尾酒療法是一個概念要很多元的處理例如說南投的源頭減量做的還可以再加強我也贊同這樣的一個做法其實我們早就有提醒說他們應該源頭減量做好分類破帶檢查該做的都要做那目前來說的話他們的確還有一些進步的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6401.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6414.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
雞尾酒療法不是其中也包含就是這個焚化廠嗎是不是燃點中心嗎也是其中的一環不是嗎可能因為我不知道他們因為每個人講的是不大一樣你不知道總統講的是什麼這是總統講的我看到那個候選人講的其實他有一些例如說他希望用到例如說SRF分類減碳這個等於是捲頭減量那個都是對的做法我相信南投縣政府也有在做所以你也不知道總統的雞尾酒療法是怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6429.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6450.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
基本上那個是候選人在推動在提出來的所以總統是候選人講出來的那是一個概念因為垃圾絕對不是只有單一個方法可以解決的部長這個我希望你可以堅持一些專業的原則你當時如果認為有一些再生能源中心它其實是更進步的也可以乾淨也不會製造污染我覺得作為中央主管機關你們有責任就提供給地方政府要蓋可以但是要蓋一個不會污染的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6456.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6476.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
是符合世界標準的那這樣子可能也是一種解方那要不然就是你們必須輔導他進行所謂的雞尾酒療法一個候選人他不能去主導政策你是環境部才應該主導政策啊我希望這件事情不要成為政治攻防而是該怎麼做就怎麼做而環境部我相信你們的專業用你們的專業去輔導地方政府有效的解決垃圾問題可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6482.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6498.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
對 這個垃圾處理本來就是地方失誤當然我們在某些立場會表態但是到目前為止因為還沒有送到我們這邊我們不方便馬上表達任何意見好 我希望你們就秉持專業處理好不好是 我們一直都是這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉民委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席有請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6514.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6528.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
委員好 部長好這個台灣正邁向2050進行排放那你也多次強調循環經濟是關鍵但是在這場綠色大轉型中我們社會中最弱勢的庇護工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6530.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6546.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那所謂庇護工廠也就是15歲以上有工作意願但工作能力不足的身心障礙者的就業職場像這個卻仍然面臨到譬如說烘焙啊手工藝啊或是傳統產業的高度競爭難以跨入這個具備高附加價值的綠色供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6547.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6572.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那所以因此本席等一下我的這個簡報會給大家看這個有這相關的公文和陳情我想要請教一下目前這個弱勢優先採購是否有跟綠色採購做一個整合綠色採購綠色採購定義還沒有針對弱勢的部分這個我們會再瞭解一下對所以你就是沒有整合所以我也給你提供一下意見因為根據這個國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6575.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6594.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
推動的這個社會責任公共採購它的經驗呢這個政府採購應該是推動永續環境跟社會公平的雙重引擎好那在歐盟呢2014年的時候它其實它有這個指令第20條它有所謂保留合約的制度允許政府將特定的綠色採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6595.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6611.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
的案呢限定由具備30%以上身障啦或者是這個弱勢員工比例的機構參與好那美國在這個美國在相關的計劃研究像AbilityOne他也有顯示這種戰略性的採購模式呢每投入一美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6611.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6636.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
能為政府跟公眾創造高達2.66美元的社會投資報酬率那也大幅節省政府在這個身障福利上面的補貼支出所以我想問一下部長你願不願意仿效去研究這個所謂的相關的這種採購制度來落實制度性的這種雙效採購那目前的綠色採購跟這個優先採購系統剛剛你講了其實它是相互獨立的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6636.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6648.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
它也導致這個基層人員的相關的行政負擔那你是不是願意研議跟這個相關的部會進行系統的串接然後呢你可以針對同時具備所謂的環保標章或者是庇護工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6649.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6660.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
生產的產品或在機關的綠色採購績效的平和中呢給予更高的權重譬如說加成1.5倍之類的讓這個機構呢和機關可以一次的採購就可以達到兩項的績效也實質帶動這個所謂的庇護工廠進入這個綠色供應鏈這部分部長怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6671.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6697.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
謝謝委員因為您剛才說的的確我們是綠色採購是強調永續環保的部分那沒有考慮到這種所謂弱勢或是庇護的功能那我也讓我們研究一下說國際上有沒有這樣的案例我們要提供有對像歐盟啊美國他們其實都有在做這方面的推動這個我們可以來研究對所以我要進一步深化跟你講這個為什麼是可以因為其實有很多許多庇護工廠也在積極的尋求轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6698.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6717.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
比如說提議引進黑水盲的養殖或者是這種高效快速發酵的技術像我們之前去參觀的考察過這樣那因為他們是這類技術具有這種高度的規律性跟結構化的流程那也根據這個所謂的職能治療的研究也非常適合固定行為模式的相關的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6719.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6728.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
比如說自閉症的學員他可以這個顯著的降低他的焦慮也提升他工作的穩定度那另外包含這種傳統碎紙作業產出的這個紙纖維較短然後回收價值有限但是如果引進這種專業的譬如說碎紙壓專機或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6738.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6756.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
廢紙的纖維化的設備它可以讓這些廢紙呢直接壓成高品質的再生這個紙的漿原料 再生紙漿原料可以讓百分之百的循環進入喔所以也參考我剛剛說的美國的Ability One的計畫他們其實是有將這個機密文件銷毀列為他們標準勞務採購的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6760.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6779.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那也讓這些資源回收跟伸張的就業整合他們有在做這個事情喔那但是目前同樣的就是說邀請部長回去瞭解的事情是這樣喔因為你在做今天的循環經濟裡面其實他們是可以有角色但是這個角色他的困境也在於他的設備成本剛剛我有提到這個設備成本嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6779.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6802.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那雖然勞動部目前是有對於 勞動部是有對於這種庇護工廠的這個構置一些單項的設備補助是有一些補助的額度啦可是它通常都是在10萬以下但是對於這種大型的構置這種相關的系統剛剛說的這種這個要壓紙回收的原料這種系統它可能都是數十萬到數百萬喔 都有那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6803.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6824.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我覺得今天剛好這個題目是不是可以叫我希望部長回去可以演繹我這個方向你去跟相關的部會去討論比如說剛剛講到不管是黑水盲啦或者是碎紙作業啦好這個你們是不是要有個輔助機制然後把他們可以納入到你這個資源循環的系統裡面因為事實上有其他國家也在做這件事情那你同時可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6825.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6842.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
貢獻這個循環經濟跟社會包容這部分是不是可以請部長謝謝委員提供的意見這個是蠻好的因為我們現在是針對弱勢或是偏鄉或是地方創生或是相關的比較弱勢的去做處理這個庇護工廠我們的確過去沒有特別研究過那我們會來遵照委員的意見來研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6843.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6862.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好那請部長是不是可以一個月內給本席辦公室一個相關的報告我們會先來去跟跨部會來進行討論對你要告訴我說你們有什麼進展然後有沒有相關的研究請提供報告給本席辦公室可以可以好那再來這題這個部長還是先請留著可是我還是想要請這個經濟部能源署的副署長副署長今天是這個經濟部能源署副署長對 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6873.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6878.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
或者是也可以請那個產業發展署的副署長那個副組長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6885.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6905.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我想要請教一下副署長或是副組長你們看是誰可以回答你們現在經濟部為了鼓勵既有的光電暗場轉換成高效模組好像你們在今年1月有公告在再生能源短購費率中有新增一個太陽光電太舊換新機制對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6908.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6931.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那根據規範只要換了新的太陽能板既有的發電量可以照以前的這個等購算那新增的發電量照新的算讓光電業者的其實在這部分他收益是可以增加那你們還說要現有盤點全台有這個800MW的既有暗場那想要請問一下那你預計未來五年會增加500MW對吧如果說用這種換的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6934.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6939.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
還是是嗎那你們預計今年有多少案場要淘汰預計會換多少量這個我們會再做盤點因為這個還有涉及到意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6948.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6975.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
立願什麼?意願但是你們當初在用這個規劃的時候你沒有去盤點過嗎?沒有去調查過嗎?應該是要有才會出現這個規劃吧我們是盤點就是超過10年的設置案那這些案件的設備基本上是比較老舊那效率可能有點衰退那這些就是未來可能會太久換新的一個那你們現在的方案是直接補助嗎?還是說費率的收益讓他們有一些費率收益的 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6977.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6985.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
誘因而已我們沒有補助就是費率上面的誘因就是費率上面的誘因嗎好那接下來我就要再問了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6986.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7014.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我想要問我們彭部長所以剛剛其實業務委員提到可是他沒有提到這個論點就是說現在他們開始在鼓勵太舊換新但是這項政策其實無疑就是把很多原本你剛剛在講其實2035年以後才廢棄的模組提前可能提前到今年2026開始到2030年進入回收體系對不對那請教部長接下來的舊版你們的回收處理量能有準備好了嗎你們兩個單位有去溝通過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7016.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7027.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
因為這個就有嗎有有目前呃有現在有4家在處理嘛齁那我知道有幾家正在生澀當中因為他們看好未來的商機我想要請問一下經濟部在做這個事情的時候有沒有先跟你們溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7029.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7056.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
有嘛對不對那你們有剛剛可是我剛剛問他說有多少量能你有掌握你有去盤點說如果他現在做這件事今年開始或是2026到2030年有多少量能會進來嗎他們現在這個提早淘汰的我們並不清楚因為我的量這是他們現在最新的政策我們並沒有去算這個淘汰的所以我剛其實問的是說你回收處理量能有準備好了嗎這個就等於是沒辦法回答囉有有有所以你們準備好他如果現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7056.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7080.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
你都不知道量能多少你怎麼可以確定你準備好我們現在有五家總共將近五千噸一個月可以處理五千噸的量能一個月可以處理五千噸所以你意思是說他淘汰下來五千噸你都可以就是都有辦法沒有問題好那好那我就要接下來再問那部長因為剛剛也有討論到你們其實你們環境部有這個資源回收管理基金嘛那你們今天的會議三月份的會議資料有寫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7081.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7099.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那目前的處理技術跟再生這個的用途不同的用的方式不同那回收處理成本大概是每k瓦是1600到2400那相較於能源署徵收的1000其實是尚不足以收支平衡請問部長那你現在已經收支不平衡了請問你們要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7100.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7113.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為現在的量很少所以他處理的成本相對的就會高那未來未來的這個經過他們的這個專業的有去估算未來的費用應該會慢慢的往下未來是什麼時候然後你怎麼往下因為127年 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7117.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7134.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
什麼意思127年它的量就會起來127年對現在沒有這個量啊127年那我們剛剛說了你現在他們這個補助方案有可能是2026到2030就是115年開始就有這些量能出現了現在就有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7134.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7163.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
對嘛現在又有了嘛所以你知道這裡會發生什麼事情嗎你現在每K瓦都是虧嘛你等於每K瓦你在你在回收的時候都虧嘛所以這不是我講的這是主機處的估算如果按照你這個每K瓦每K瓦的1000到2045年累積可收173億那估計處理成本是397億所以差額有224億耶那你現在在加速推動這個太陽能板的換新的時候這部分是不是就只會虧更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7164.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7178.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
因為你你也還沒到你也還沒到127年你的那個量體啦對不對包委員這個中間替換的部分這個模組回收費用是由業者出的你現在替換的部分你說你現在替換了然後那些下來的板 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7179.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7198.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
回收的成本咧你說他自己要再多拿一千六或是兩千四出來嗎就是給他們去處理所以這部分你可以保證不會影響到就是其他民眾要負擔的納稅錢嗎這個一千塊是屬於正常淘汰的二十年三十年之後正常淘汰的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7198.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7227.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以你現在鼓勵的方式也就是說如果他們要提早這個十年到期的還要淘汰的這些成本都是確定不會由納稅人的錢買單是嗎對 就很像說去年那個可以保證嘛對不對對 去年像嘉義有很多廢棄的光電板大量的那那個其實都是業者自己負擔沒有用到這個基金那所以我想問說那對於業者來講他說那我之前有繳這個一千塊的那你怎麼算最後他最後還是要除以 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7227.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7246.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他最後除役的時候還是要用到那他現在就是提早要換了嘛那你換新的板當然是他自己要出啊我是說那換下來的舊的板的回收的部分也是他們要出嗎是嗎是嗎就是說這2400是他要處理的好所以確定不會用到全民納稅人的錢你要確保喔這裡是有記錄的喔好那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7246.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7257.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
因為我們擔心的就是說因為看到這個狀況這兩個機制如果你們兩個沒有溝通好的話就會變成是你本來就已經在虧了結果你現在突然又一大票進來要處理那你的成本還是這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7258.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7278.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
是不是部長你可以保證因為現在是經濟部在代收這個錢能源署在代收那未來我們的如果修的這個資源循環推動法裡面那個所謂的這個太陽光電風電的這種一開始就源頭管理就由這個循環署來管理相對的這個機制或是費率可能會比較更有彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7279.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7305.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為你本來其實是為什麼本席這樣問是因為你本來上一年底的時候就有說可能要研議提高所謂的費率處理費率嘛對你本來說1000塊可能不夠你也要提高嘛對不對本來說上一年底就要處理但是也沒處理你你今天是說可能是因為因為齁這個光電業者已經進入一個寒冬了所以基本上當我們提出這個想法跟溝通的時候我相信這個這個這個阻力是非常大的我是要說因為你今年演到年底啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7306.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7332.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你年底不管你調你預計會調因為你剛剛說127年嘛到現在是115年的情況之下還有12年的期間那你這中間等於所有都是在虧錢在處理所以你說你可能會你可能會年底會調那現在就會變成是說那今年年初他們有這樣子的一個方案出現了會不會導致大批的這些大批的業者他會想說那我就趕快提早在這個時候先回收因為這個時候處理是1000塊會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7335.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7362.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
不會因為沒有人想要做這樣的事所以你覺得他這樣的鼓勵政策是不會造成不會造成的話那他鼓勵政策這樣不就有點志強矛盾嗎你說他們不願意做這個事那他們又推這個事那你有吸引到他們嗎他們是從那個發電效率可以提升可以多賺一點這個光電的錢這個角度就可以去算出來這是一個完全是一個財務模型我們算這個1000塊也是財務模型所以基本上不會有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7362.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7377.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
好因為我要說的事情就是說你這個費用你要確保不會用到這個全民的納稅錢因為事實上我們不是說不鼓勵綠色能源發展要鼓勵可是我們現在看到這個機制我們很擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7378.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7396.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好不好不過我必須說這個可能寫的報告的人他不是很懂得這個財務模型的機制啦所以我們會去再做解釋你要回去再解釋好那請這個確保這件事情答應本席確保這件事情也給本席辦公室你解釋的給我們看一下你到底怎麼解釋這件事是好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員發言那接下來請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7403.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7408.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
待會黃秀芳委員詢答完畢後我們休息十分鐘來麻煩我們的蘇慶泉委員好謝謝主席我請彭部長有請彭部長還有我們台電的副總的那個專業台電不是副總要來嗎沒有台電是專業總管理師黃美蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7431.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7436.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
剛剛我們廖偉強問的問題,我想他部長知道,他不太知道我補充一下,去年丹納斯颱風來,我們嘉義 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7460.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7469.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
台南、高雄那個光電的暗場受傷的有33個暗場那這些暗場上面那些光電板壞掉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7470.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7490.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
都沒到10年,都幾年了,像我們去看那個最大的嘉義志鴻池那個64公頃,很蒸熟的,到現在也沒辦法處理那弄上來這些你又不給他補,彭部長講的我們光電業者已經進入寒冬了,現在要脫下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7493.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7522.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
就坐在那裏,不幫忙也不行所以想這個案子,要給他報告,要給他回答過不過,人家要不要再貸?人家會再貸給他嗎?二次貸款?我還不清楚,不過那個還沒有動我希望他可以起來啦不然的話,他也是死在那裏所以這個錯誤的能源政策我們屋頂的太陽能板,我們是絕對支持啦全世界都支持,但是成效不漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7523.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7538.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那這些在農地的,在餘溫啊,像我們屏東搞了萬七八糟,這些真的是撒騙集團那現在已經搞成這樣了,那已經錯了,那多少對能源也有點幫忙所以現在是一陣風風颱風來,但是我問銀行的人,銀行說他不跟台灣第二次,因為怕風颱風來,又燒一次,暗示又撤了現在要找什麼特質,要找模型要做還是鋼管要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7549.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7567.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以這是問題 增值也是所在那你能源署跟經濟部搞這個方案出來是要幫忙他們度過然後政府又不能拿錢直接有沒有拿錢直接補給他們 沒有吧沒有沒有啦齁你如果有你就我們死了 我跟你講一追下去你真的會出事啦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7570.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7589.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我要問台電喔我在麥寮的朋友他說你們他們那個燃煤的廠本來要廢掉改成天然氣他現在經濟部請他不要動因為有可能馬上要頂上來燃煤我第一個問題是麥寮的燃煤有沒有現在有沒有在發電報告委員喔其實麥寮的燃煤目前是沒有發電的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7598.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7624.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那沒有發電怎麼 我們今天早上抓到的今天早上8點抓到的PM2.5耐療是一直往上飆了目前耐療的三部機組 其中二號機他已經拆掉了那一號機跟三號機都是停機當中所以沒有發電的 對那他們本來是要把這個拆掉要改成天然氣 是不是這樣你們現在叫他說不要動 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7625.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7639.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
旁邊在蓋 我說明一下他目前那個二號機拆掉跟他會在利用旁邊的空地他目前是在進行他一個燃氣機組的一個建置當中所以這個是持續在進行的所以會新建兩部燃氣機組現在麥寮在發電是客廳發電現在都停了 麥寮他沒有發電啊怎麼變2.5我們也是很認真在抓這個是環境部的monitor |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7652.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7673.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
空污不一定是發電廠的一個關係啊對但是他實際上他那條電廠是沒有在發電的目前是沒有那他們你們現在請他準備好隨時要Stand by要上來就是怕怕那個那個那個河牧師海峽那邊的東西進不來是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7673.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7676.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個說明一下其實因為中東他整個情勢一個緊張所以各國他其實都已經在調整他的一個譬如說他一個燃煤基礎的一個發電包括他可能開始啟動或者是說他有調整他一個發電的一個上限那其實以我們來講其實我們也是針對要 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7692.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7696.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
要針對這個天然氣的一個部分做一個彈性的一個能源的一個韌性所以這個是一個有備無患的一個做法所以經濟部長說不然怎麼修我們今年燃煤的用量一定比去年少講這個話話中有話聽懂的人聽懂聽不懂就 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7711.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7722.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以如果我們目前對麥寮電廠我們是採用那個短期調度的方式來因應而且我們會秉持在今年的這個用煤量的水準不過超過去年的一個水準 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7723.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7741.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以水族準備要燃眉因為其實各國都在調整目前各國都在調整我是覺得台電或是經濟部要誠實的跟百姓講譬如說現在你天然氣台電你們吸收了多少天然氣有260億他們中油本來95000汽油現在應該是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7747.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7773.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
不吸收的話可能現在要四十幾塊了,照實講啊,讓百姓有感受啊所以不要都報喜不報憂,然後進講一些粉飾太平的話,那沒辦法啦現在變成大家都聰明了啦,現在隨時都可以,我可以國文經常看人家環境部的monitor,我怎麼有,都有五人啦,現在沒有五人啦嘛,好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7774.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7784.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
部長,我昨天都在鄉村辦桌台電河山廠現在西湖公司的人已經都出去了我也看到我們的賴總統這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7787.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7801.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
轉彎,當然是最主要原因是來自美國的壓力美國國防部說我們至少要有兩座核能發電廠才能保衛我們的基礎電力那些興春現在,博電你等下興春現在死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7804.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7821.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
全部的民宿我們倒備了全部的餐廳大家都沒有全部都吃土了但是歐克山莊將近四百床的那個四百個房間啦不要講床四百個四百個房間的路貫都關起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7823.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7836.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
現在有些土木屋,水電都在核酸塘開一天比這人,一天三千所以不無小福,那些人很感謝那我看部長也很挺台電還有總統這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7839.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7863.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個政策,所以我很肯定我們部長跟環境部這邊的用心那邊的人只要一提到那些光電板就咬牙切齒所以你怎麼彌補,最主要的是不然你要看我是怎樣,要合兩家我覺得兩部機組太少了,應該用四部到六部 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7865.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7891.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
包委員 多元的能源如果可以減碳我們都會支持但是因為核電 核安 核電是屬於核安會在主管的那也跟委員報告 因為目前的環評的規定裡面這個是既有的機組 它目前不是不需要但是如果委員說要興建再多幾步 那個就要再環評了那個其實可能要花蠻多的一個時間要取得社會的共識可能還要更多更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7892.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7898.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
韓國的核能佔它總化電量57%30%法國70幾75%那德國號稱非核結果偷偷的跟法國買電那法國就用核能的電賣給它這個很諷刺 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7911.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7915.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我看德國的電一度差不多14塊12到14塊我們負擔不起我們現在3塊8我們醫療的用電已經到7塊多很貴台電要漲價沒有人受得了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7931.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7946.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
光電這邊你嚴格在管理了嘛那我很肯定好那再來我要跟部長請教就是說我們這一次的能源危機讓所有的塑膠業者塑膠袋沒什麼我講我很好啊想要都買不到要比較好馬上大幅縮減把它打飆不定 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7955.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7974.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
現在我最大的問題,現在大家都穿環保袋,這樣很好啊,但是你要讓人方便,還有誘因啦,譬如說你用去小溜球,我們東郊去看,它有環保杯,當然7-11你去買,買買要你贏贏的你還要再購回來,大家沒有什麼要贏什麼,人家贏過的東西, |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7979.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8006.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
不要再高檔,洗洗有錢錢沒有消毒消毒有錢錢沒有怕恐懼嘛所以你有沒有其他更好的方法這個探這個機會探這個機會,我們用誘因來譬如說煤啊,我是在想說煤啊是不是有的用矽膠的,可以伸縮的,放進去比較好炸去買咖啡買什麼都可以水滴,冷凍的又赤赤的燒起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8008.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8011.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
有這種想法嗎?賴組長,你有沒有想法?有啦,委包委員,像目前自己帶飲料杯自己的杯子,然後去便利商店大概有兩成左右是可以折五塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8023.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8048.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個誘因是最有效的啦誘因最有效我只能情感呼籲說你要環保貸有時候那個就相對的比較少有人會做有人不會做那目前呢我們在建國花市那個悠遊卡如果你自己帶環保貸5塊我們是希望可以更多但是那個要花3萬倍也可以但是那個要花很多錢我們在測試這個市場上的接受程度我們是希望有經濟的誘因在裡面會比較快比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8050.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8073.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我是因為站在醫生的立場,這東西是自己會比較安心的,回去怎麼洗,這是你的事情嘛但是你這個東西,我們世界可以伸縮的啦,又不會老啦,好好的走,不然一隻大隻的站在旁邊,很奇怪的所以這個要用點心啦,看看有沒有辦法,因為這一次探這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8075.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8079.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
塑膠袋一個人一天說你講的說一天用2.1個這真的假的一點多個這樣都可以減量這樣是好事因為那個還是汙染嘛那我最後一個問題我們的PE你說我們自己自給自足100%是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8096.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8125.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那這些我們醫療也有用很多食藥署也是用很多你們現在是有問題嗎100%的自給自利然後又說不夠是到底出在哪裡又是缺點滴又是缺什麼又來了因為我們現在在單一的平台已經確定從藥廠藥商跟醫材商他的下游包括包材商跟樹立供應的商面 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8126.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8140.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那這個部分前面這邊是衛福部食藥署後面的是產發署跟經濟部產發署協作所以雙方的協作我們現在藥廠通報說會缺的8家醫材通報目前有 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8142.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8156.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
加起來19家那我們實際上去評 去盤要問細的 他們很緊張啊所以有缺12月的就已經來報了但是有缺6月5月的我們現在立即需要去支援的大概兩家 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8158.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8172.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
醫材商裡面總共有六家的所謂塑料的所謂醫材的供應的部分的有六家這六家呢我們都直接請產發署的同仁們直接對接所以我們做的兩邊就是食藥署跟產發署經濟部跟衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8174.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8197.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
雙方面往下走各自去對因為我們怕說我們對的傳導的是不一樣所以雙方對起來的目前是有兩家公司六家需要支持的部分目前都是直接對上了但是目前狀況是這樣都是PE嘛不只各項的都有各項的BVCTVC PE都有以及GEC的都有都有對對對目前是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8200.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8213.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個我們也有協調因為這些原來很多都要靠進口啦現在那個地緣政治的關係沒辦法進口或是他們需要自己都不夠了所以你能掌控就是戰略上自己能夠100%的自己可以控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8217.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8238.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
目前這個跨部會都有在協調這個事情這部分我們有平起來一個月大概現在叫1200噸左右在醫材跟藥品箱包材那相對於整體的5萬噸來講是一小部分而已所以已經協調完優先供應大概在供應的部分你不要到時候連那個點滴瓶 點滴瓶也是PE嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8239.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8254.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
對 現在是透析了洗聖瓶的那個那個都是比目前是有有有 這個我們非常非常高度警覺好 謝謝好 謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長劉景鵬部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8267.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8283.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
委員好 部長好 剛剛很多委員有特別提到最近缺塑膠我想請教部長 這個是不是我們現在環境部推動的最好的一個契機減塑最好的一個契機 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8287.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8307.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那剛剛也蠻多委員也有特別提到就是說希望這一陣子是不是能夠我們要有一些誘因啦 當然誘因非常的多啦像最近我們到市場去買東西的時候以前那個塑膠袋是隨便你拿那現在老闆會問說你要不要塑膠袋 再多兩塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8309.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8317.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這個民眾他就會想說那我還要多花兩塊錢那我是不是就不要用塑膠袋了所以我覺得這是一個推動這個減速最好的一個契機那我們原本在2030年就是說一次性的這個塑膠希望能夠不要再有這樣一次性的塑膠那我想請教部長就是說因為這一次是因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8338.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8357.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
整個中東戰火的一個關係所以這個缺可能源於物料的一個缺那有沒有可能就是說不是因為我們推動政策不是因為政策的關係然後民眾自發性的去減速嘛那我想請教就是說因為經濟部也有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8358.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8383.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
就是地方可能缺這個塑膠袋什麼所以經濟部這邊也去協調中油或者是台塑可能在供應方面可能就不要有缺那這個跟我們環境部是我覺得是互相矛盾的你們希望能夠減塑那經濟部跟中油就是經濟部這邊去協調中油跟台塑就是說這個原料不要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8383.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8406.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
不要有一些這個缺乏那造成市場可能這個塑膠袋沒有所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分一方面就是我們希望政策的一個推動是民眾自發性的這個減速好那就是順勢透過這一次的因為局勢的關係那這個塑膠袋可能有一些缺乏 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8406.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8431.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那順勢就可能民眾未來有這個習慣就我出去買東西或者是買飲料買咖啡我就自備環保杯或者是我自備購物袋那我希望就是說能夠是不是可以趁著這幾個月當中是不是可以好好的來推動那也許你這幾個月這個推動的這個成效比你前幾年的這個成效還要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8432.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8452.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
是不是我請部長再說明一下可不可以在最近這幾個月當中可以更積極的來推動民眾自備購物袋跟環保杯我非常贊同委員的觀點因為剛剛委員列出這四個就是我們現在在推的那目前我舉例我們今天有聽到有些市場主動貼出來不提供塑膠袋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8453.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8473.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那那個就比較積極因為他覺得我現在不要為了這個4000次傷腦筋要鼓勵民眾自己戴當然那個必須是有一個宣導期那我的觀察是因為這個最大的核心是攤商攤商有這個環保的意識比我們講100次或是一個限制都來得有效那目前我必須說因為經濟部是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8475.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8490.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個民眾因為現在民眾是有一個預期的心理會怕沒有所以搶購所以他們是解決這個問題那對我們來說希望整個源頭的減量所以我也跟委員報告我們是希望用一個新的方案去能夠推那我會鼓勵企業來 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8491.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8518.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
推動這個循環袋拿出來那另外一個是攤商也要有這個意識所以這個媒合的工程未來在幾個月我們會大力的推動我希望就是說能夠跟集集在這幾個月當中來宣傳因為以往我們買東西就是說如果去市場買吃的買用的那個攤商就會直接給你一個那個塑膠袋直接裝那現在其實有很多他會自己帶有的人會自己帶便當盒 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8520.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8534.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那有的買那個那個湯湯水水的東西他自己也會帶自己的容器去裝所以我覺得這是一個非常好的一個契機就是我們一直在推動這個減速那是不是可以在這幾個月當中能夠更積極來推動透過這個可能你 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8539.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8554.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
不拿這個塑膠袋可以撿反而是可以撿一塊兩塊我覺得這民眾可能會覺得說那我就知道自己自備這個購物袋甚至有的這個以往可能家裡面囤積非常多的這個購物袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8556.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8572.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個購物台可能都一堆那像現在有的就是會再重複一直使用所以我覺得這是一個非常好的一個時機那當然就是說這個也要這個政府跟民眾或者是我們攤商這個大家一起來努力的沒有問題我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8573.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8590.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
但是這個最重要的關鍵我的觀察因為我蹲點到很多地方大概就是攤商然後他的意願主觀性有沒有環保的很重要那我們在建國化社的經驗是已經到達八成但是也跟會員報告花了半年那個要真的很大力道一直不斷的跟他們交朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8591.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8601.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
其他的各個縣市我們是希望我們會再跟各個縣市環保局還有各個縣市政府那目前呢其實這件事情有很多的企業願意用ESG的觀點來做協助我們認為這是一個很好的時機啦那部長我再請教就是說我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8609.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8614.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
今年的這個五月開始就是有關碳費就是開始這個要繳徵這個碳費那我想請教就是說我之前有問就是說我們要這個前500大500家那因為有很多都是這個鋼鐵廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8628.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8640.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
或者是這個高污染的這個產業那因為這個中東的這個局勢我不知道部長你有沒有聽到就是說有一些業者他們希望就是說這個碳費是不是可以緩徵就是說可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8643.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8659.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
可以延緩繳納那我不知道說部長你們針對這個有沒有這樣的一個就是說因為因應整個局勢的關係那這個碳費是不是會延緩繳納或者是說你們有針對這些業者有做什麼樣的一個輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8660.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8689.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
報告委員因為我們現在我大年初五就到歐盟去跟他們協商這個CBAN的事情因為這個有很多複雜的問題要解決那目前的成果是還不錯的但是我們談得不錯的原因是我們有碳費的機制已經上路了今年五月要繳那目前因為我們受到這次的中東的戰爭的確有幾家它所謂石化產業它又配合政府來處理以西的這個事情所以我們在針對它今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8689.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8708.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為協助政府來處理我們在明年的這個碳的計算的確我們有提出一個優惠的方案出來來幫助他們那另外一個是他去年因為今年5月要繳的是去年的排碳量跟今年無關但是我們知道他們經營也是虧錢在做所以我們會有一個方案不能不繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8709.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8733.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
也是延緩晚一點點繳或是分期繳那我們已經提出一個方案出來我們會送行政院來核定我們希望就是說這個政府部門是要幫助業者來度過難關確實有一些業者真的是現在真的在過寒冬所以我們希望就是說政府的功能就是協助這些業者能夠度過難關另外部長我想請教就是說大家對於焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8735.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8750.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個當然就是說不要蓋在我家垃圾總是要處理那我想請教部長就是說現在有一些這個失業廢棄物就是我們原本的焚化爐可能又要兼收燒這個廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8753.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8775.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以原本的焚化爐它有收這個失業廢棄物那造成就是有的焚化爐它原本有收的部分現在就不收失業廢棄物啦就是說它就是收廚餘嘛那我想請教部長就是說像類似這樣的一個狀況這個是一個惡性循環我們這些原本每一天會產出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8775.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8796.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
不論是家庭廢棄物或者是事業廢棄物這個都是要去處理的那沒辦法處理的像餐廳的這些這個就是事業廢棄物餐廳產出來這些廢棄物那有的他就這個業者收了之後要去焚化爐那可能現在這個焚化爐他可能量沒有那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8797.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8811.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以他可能就先做堆置那這個也是一個問題所以我希望部長針對這一部分我覺得當然環境部就是第一個我們希望能夠減少這個垃圾那可是垃圾是每天在 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8812.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8828.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
產生的不論是家庭廢棄物或者是我們的廚餘或是事業廢棄物這個就是每天在產出的那像類似這樣的一個狀況我們又希望整個環境好可是這個又不能不處理我是不是可以請部長針對這一部分有這樣的一個問題產生那未來我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8831.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8849.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
不論是經濟部也好或者是我們這個環境部怎麼樣來協助讓這些不論是這個家庭廢棄物廚餘或者是失業廢棄物有地方可以燒包委員因為我們過去這幾年那個焚化爐的量整個全台灣是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8849.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8869.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那然後其實就會造成說這種裸露的量比較多那目前呢其實因為又發生那個廚餘的事情那目前這個其實很多的廚餘一定的比例大概一半的比例的確是進到焚化爐那我為了這件事情我們有特別要求所有的焚化爐的營運要去量這個鈦澳鑫有沒有超標 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8870.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8889.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那目前數據來看的話是完全符合的正常的標準而且蠻低的因為大家很謹慎的在操作所以我是覺得目前對環境沒有疑慮但是目前未來這個量能夠不夠的問題的確我們環境部現在想要提一個未來的一個方案就是說第一個是現在的未來的事業廢棄物如果按照現在的這個產業的結構的轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8891.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8913.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
可能會越來越多我們覺得不要讓它再進到我們的焚化爐來了所以一定要確保這個家庭的焚化垃圾可以去處理完那事業的部分一定要再好好的再規劃那也跟我們報告新的焚化爐或是各種新的技術我也在關注歐洲怎麼去做其實相對的對環境的影響衝擊就沒有那麼的大那這個的確是我們可以調整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8914.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8930.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
當然我希望就是說所有的這個就是減量不論是家庭的廢棄物或者是事業廢棄物我們都希望能夠減量可是減到一定程度沒辦法減的時候總是要有一個去處那目前的狀況是確實有一些這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8932.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8946.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我剛講的焚化爐原本有收事業廢棄物然後現在因為又收廚餘然後造成原本的事業廢棄物可能就排擠了所以變成這個狀況我希望就是說未來可能要再去盤點一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8948.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8967.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
怎麼樣讓我們的這個可以回收的部分就是回收不能回收的部分應該也要有地方可以去啦要不然這個其實都是對環境都是很大的影響再來就是說這些失業廢棄物無處去無處去這個後續我知道部長這個可能有 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8967.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8994.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
第一個可能會亂丟或者是堆置這個都是目前正在發生的啦所以我希望就是部長針對這一部分跟經濟部這邊應該要好好的去溝通怎麼樣讓這個失業廢棄物能夠減少或者是不要亂丟不要堆置或者是他已經希望能夠有一個正常的管道去化那你總是要有一個地方讓他去化嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8995.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9014.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以我希望部長針對這些因為我們最近其實也在談未來環境部可能對於這種基礎的廢棄物或是資源的配置的規劃那我們是認為是現在的造成的問題是長期累積起來的結果但是未來我希望未來這種事不要再發生的確我們在希望有一個長期的5到10年的規劃來徹底解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9016.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9032.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好我希望能夠趕快跟經濟部這邊我覺得應該要好好的去協調一下怎麼樣讓這個廢棄物能夠得到有一個好的處理是是好謝謝委員謝謝黃秀芳委員發言時間休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9045.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9048.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那個5月4號你好像是跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9715.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9740.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好 現在開會接下來請林淑芬委員發言好 現在這個主席是不是請我們彭部長 有請彭部長李委員好部長好 這個全臺灣這個事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9746.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9767.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
一般也不是非事業廢棄物就是一般家庭垃圾的焚化廠當中我先講好了是事業廢棄物的焚化廠當中然後不是是非事業廢棄物是一般垃圾焚化廠每年大概處理650萬噸廢棄物是吧然後產出90萬的底渣和20萬的非灰 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9774.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9788.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那這些都要納入這個環管署的SWIMS系統去管理吧那微微的處理也很明確的規範嘛然後依照一般廢棄物回收處清除處理辦法第27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9791.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9796.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
聽好這個是家庭產出的垃圾家庭一般垃圾不是事業廢棄物家庭的垃圾那環管署管理然後他的清除處理辦法27條他講必須逐批尤其在衍生物我講輝輝 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9810.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9828.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
他的衍生物必須每一批喔 燒出來每一批喔都要採穩定化 熔融法或穩定化法或經其他中央主管機關許可的處理辦法然後處理以後呢 你必須安定化 無害化 然後穩定化 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9831.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9847.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
之後呢每一批喔還要進行代澳新檢測是另外檢測代澳新檢測以外還要進行TCLP的溶出檢測對吧是沒錯好那我要討論這個非灰的管制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9847.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9854.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
制度問題之前我先從這個新竹焚化爐的問題來談2019年4月新竹縣長楊文科在施政報告當中他規劃要興建焚化爐招標的具體內容還沒有公開台融科技他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9870.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9889.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
在4月他公開說他要興建一個焚化爐嘛台農在5月就馬上去買了六筆土地這六筆土地剛好在2002年他們那個地方已經通過了環平的焚化爐預定地了所以顯然大家都在講說這個好像很厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9890.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9914.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那三個月後呢 縣政府就正式公告他們要蓋的焚化爐是要用BOO案的方式去蓋所以廠商要自己準備土地然後導致他用BOO以後就排除了本來有意要投標的日本 歐美 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9915.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9924.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
的業者紛紛都退出變成台融成為唯一符合資格的投標者獨家得標那外界議論的是說副縣長的配偶就等於副縣長他們家啦才發現說他們擁有台融的這個股票500張現在價值也不菲 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9938.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9946.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那有沒有利益迴避 大家都嚴重質疑然後大家也在講說新竹這個縣政府的BOO的合約條件被批評遠遠比同級的案件條件定的非常的差非常的不利於縣政府 非常的有利於業者 包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9959.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9968.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
合約規定每天500噸的處理的量能你一半250噸要給事業廢棄物250噸要給民生垃圾但是光是他們新竹縣自己每天的民生垃圾就280噸所以光是要處理他們新竹縣自己的垃圾都還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9983.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10008.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
大家都知道處理生活垃圾收的錢少處理事業廢棄物收的錢才多但是現在他要收你的生活垃圾他一噸這個焚化爐要收2100元如果你超量加價要到2520元那回饋金遠低於桃園跟高雄的每噸400元回饋金每噸100元 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10013.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10021.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
焚化發電收益全部都歸這個焚化廠商所有所以在這個東西這樣公佈以後台榮科技在2025年合併營收因為這個案子大幅成長進六層碳系碳鋼但我今天不是要說這焚化廠背後的利益結構和官商勾結啦我不是要講這個我是要講這座焚化廠所暴露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10042.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10060.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
環境的環保的制度的漏洞比這一個個案爭議就是有沒有圖利還更嚴重的攸關到全民的制度面的缺失其實就是非非管制的雙軌漏洞部長非非管制的雙軌漏洞你有知道嗎報告委員這個案子是非常特殊的我沒有講這個我在講非非管制的雙軌的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10072.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10093.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你們在飛灰管理上的漏洞大家都知道這個飛灰問題很嚴重保證你不知道啦 看狀況你不知道啦有啦有啦 有知道啦他們兩個知道你不知道啦我對 保安委員這個案子我清楚這個案子我不是在講這個案子我是從這裡要來講管制的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10094.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10111.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
一座焚化廠被定義為事業廢棄物焚化廠它的非灰的管制就會從環管署的軌道轉入循環署的軌道一般的家戶垃圾是哪個單位管的環管署那如果說我這個是事業廢棄物是誰循環署 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10120.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10134.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以他只要是事業廢棄物的焚化爐他就到循環署去了適用的就不是一般廢棄物的嚴格的標準喔而是事業廢棄物的較寬鬆的規範聽好清楚喔事業廢棄物的規範比家庭垃圾的規範更寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10143.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10149.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這樣你聽我 我就開宗明義破題就是講這個大家有我接受嗎修事業廢棄物的安全環境風險標準比修家庭廢棄物的還更寬鬆這樣感覺好來他現在只要說我是事業廢棄物分化爐非非他依照你們的辦法半年只需要進行一次TCLP檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10170.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10195.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
不用像加燒家庭垃圾出來的廢灰要安定化穩定化要融融處理直接燒失業廢棄物的廢灰就以物理的方式就直接再利用了燒家庭廢棄物的嚴格逐批檢查有沒有帶澳新然後做TCLP檢測失業廢棄物不用做帶澳新檢查只有做TCLP檢測然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10198.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10215.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
家庭廢棄物要安定化、無害化、穩定化、熔融化給它燒解不能夠有溶出的風險事業廢棄物更毒害的都不用不用直接拿去再利用物理上的處理我再問你一個TCLP你的事業廢棄物的廢灰只做TCLP檢測TCLP可以檢出代澳新嗎?有辦法做代澳新檢出的檢驗嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10229.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10245.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
沒有辦法TCLP是什麼實驗溶出的實驗TCLP是它在模擬自然環境裡面長期空氣裡面酸與腐蝕然後看這個物質會不會溶出然後造成環境危害其實它是一個環境長期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10248.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10276.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
環境危害的 所以要做長期環境危害的風險評估而代澳鋅是一種毒性的代澳鋅物質的檢查代澳鋅是溶於脂肪 不溶於水啊你TCRP是促酸啊它根本不會溶出沒有辦法檢驗代澳鋅 這是基本的所以等於說你的試驗廢棄物的廢灰全部都沒有在檢查代澳鋅的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10277.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10294.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
OK好我再講新竹縣這個例子回到這裡來我回到新竹這個例子來新竹縣政府依促三法以BOO的方式去設置的高效能垃圾熱處理設施就台榮啦反正就台榮這個案子一個月500噸年處理量15.5萬噸其中8萬噸是事業費75 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10301.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10304.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
一年預計7.5萬噸是生活垃圾為什麼他要這樣子設計 你知道嗎我剛才講了幾批這樣聽得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10312.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10337.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
還有為什麼要這樣子設計成一年收事業廢棄物更勝於家庭一般垃圾呢因為事業廢棄物的處理量過半他們那一個廠就被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐營運資料不用進還管署的長期追蹤的SWIM系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10340.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10361.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
灰飛的管制也變得更寬鬆了據瞭解他2025年初然後就開始營運以來試營運以來現在呢一兩次只有一兩次的檢驗數據就將灰飛以一般性灰飛的名義送到台南全新公司去 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10363.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10383.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
預辦少量的水泥做成低密度控制性低強度的混凝土就是CLSM啦還有拿去填地填管溝一年只驗兩次抽驗不是逐批喔一般垃圾的會不會還要逐批他沒有一年抽驗兩次因為法律規定的因為你們規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10385.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10412.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
他只要叫事業廢棄物就可以這樣子了送到台南全新去這一種強減的灰飛送到全新去大概2025年度送了4,034噸以每一噸廢棄物產出約3%的灰飛虧孤那個焚化量他一年到2025年的確燒了13萬多噸幾乎他全年的灰飛全數都送到全新去全新 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10415.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10435.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
阿這一種東西你覺得做成再利用產品 品質會好嗎?蛤?不會 包委員這個我簡單的說第一個是這個台南市環保局已經我們已經環保署已經立法告發了沒關係你要跟我講全新的問題是另外一個回事但我跟你講是制度面這不是台農只有一家台農這樣做大家都這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10436.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10445.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
而且這一種品質 事實上市場沒有人要買單啦而且這種CLSM 我跟你講 做出來喔 都是虎氣的啦虎氣的啦 沒錯 市場沒人要買 我問你市場沒人要買 衝箱敢不繼續做 沒可能沒可能 這些東西走到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10461.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10465.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
早期都會 你肯定他有做成低密度的CLSM低強度的嗎沒有啦 別騙啦這是事業費器物的我告訴你監察院有一個糾正報告啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10475.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10488.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
監察院有一個糾正報告 他不是講失業費欺負 他去看全國的所有的公有焚化爐的灰飛公有焚化爐灰灰 我講過他一定要檢測帶藥芯嘛然後他們有講 監察院這裡有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10494.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10510.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
公有焚化爐 家庭垃圾而已焚化灰飛因性質複雜 綠的含量高直接再利用 亦導致製成腐蝕受損所以灰飛長期以來均已固化掩埋處理目前再利用率仍約10% |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10514.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10533.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
一般家庭廢棄物燒出來的灰灰拿去再利用10%比這個風險更大然後檢測法律規定的更寬鬆的失業廢棄物的灰灰你說他拿去再利用全部會再利用公有的再利用10%他會是幾%不要騙人啦所以我要跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10539.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10545.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
非常令人不安的問題是我現在要講的你們的問題更嚴重環管署發現這個問題以後他想要到台融裡面去採樣被新竹縣環保局拒絕阿威要諮詢 何以來諮詢主席 當然要諮詢 讓他們來諮詢我們在諮詢 有人要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10567.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10585.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好 我現在講環管署發現要去採樣 要檢查被新竹縣環保局拒絕然後呢環管署就跟你們循環署反映循環署無動於衷最後是北區督察大隊介入採樣才揭露這個問題這不禁讓人想要問說新竹縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10590.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10618.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
是唯一的這個案例嗎全台灣還有多少座試驗廢棄物焚化爐他們的飛灰都跑去哪裡家庭家戶垃圾公有焚化爐只有10%再利用率他們的更不可能比他們更好其他跑去哪裡被同樣當作一般性飛灰處理其他流向到底去哪裡你們報的出來我就要問你一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10620.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10626.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那當然有可能掩埋全台灣非灰掩埋廠的容量剩下多少你也不知道我們請署長回答好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10636.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10664.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
他管的是公有焚化爐我現在是最終處理叫做掩埋啊我們在說的就是這些東西我們拿去賣掉啦但是也有可能拿去賣掉問題是掩埋廠還有多少量可以賣掉不要騙啦到底還有多少量可以賣掉我在講揮飛的掩埋餘餘量剩多少現在台灣剩下不多因為只剩下民間廠商不多是多少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10665.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10672.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
不知道 好 回去 保證你也不知道 他也不知道啦我告訴你啦 沒人在掩埋都黑白的啦還有我跟你講喔 他們會回填管溝嘛 對不對可以回填管溝嗎假設說他已經完成了全新公司啦 全新公司做成低強度的混凝土可不可以回填管溝 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10695.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10703.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
他前面的話講的是說它是一般一般的話才能夠做成CLSM才能夠對啦我問你CLSM可不可以回転管溝你們用假的檢驗叫PCLP驗不出代號型然後它的風險就變成從有風險變成一般的管制一般的事業費器物的管制然後就可以做成CLSM |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10718.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10722.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
CLSM可以去回填管溝保定你知道回填管溝有什麼風險嗎它是強潛對不對會腐蝕對不對會回填什麼管溝我問你中油如果它的油管天然氣管它的輸送回填那個管溝有沒有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10736.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10758.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
自來水公司本來是塑膠管 現在全面改成鑄鐵管如果搶檢放進去有沒有風險還有一般民間的化學油槽 化學管的輸送然後都是鑄鐵管 如果沒有包覆一個特殊的包材特殊的包材包上去很貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10759.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10780.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
沒有的話回田管溝請問自來水水管的鑄鐵管據我所知台北市有包覆包材台灣省的沒有啦沒錢嘛就鑄鐵管有沒有風險漏水的風險有沒有可能中油的油管天然氣管有沒有包覆它的鑄鐵管有沒有包覆沒有包覆有沒有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10782.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10802.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
他們有沒有使用低密度的CLSM 低強度的有啊 法律可以允許啊油管 化學管可不可以回填可不可以那個 可以啊有沒有風險保證你可以說沒有啦 不會馬上就就腐蝕啦 會要經過很多年才會腐蝕啦是吧保證是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10806.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10825.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我說這都是事實 正在發生 已經發生喔因為我看過我們全面汰換自來水管然後你把有毒的 搶檢的通通回填管溝CLSM拿去回填管溝全台灣最小的CLSM不用再買水買土 也不用再買水泥 人家送你的回填管溝有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10834.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10834.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
會不會贏? |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10834.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10837.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
不會贏啊有沒有公共危害? |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10837.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10852.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
有啊好好 鮑偉我回應一下第一個是新竹這個案例是非常特殊幾個月前我已經有看到相關的資料也進行了該有的、必要的這個檢查程式我知道啦 這個個案我知道但我現在跟你講是從這個個案我去告訴你全台灣只要叫做四葉廢棄物焚化爐的都一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10862.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10874.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
都一樣不要只講新竹在你制度面你的揮揮管制的雙軌的制度的漏洞而且你把高風險的管制的更鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10875.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10889.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
各位報告那我們現在CFHU呢他是他的規定是要經過檢測那我還有什麼檢測你用檢測兩個字你也未免太糊弄我了我又不是不知道是你們有什麼檢測那各位直接報告就是現在你們檢測的頻率我剛剛講一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10892.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10914.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
深垃圾焚化廠的灰灰每一批燒出來他要做代澳新檢測還要做TCLP你們的事業費汽物焚化爐的灰灰半年TCLP抽一次處理後產品可以測這種東西測不出代澳新啦你沒有特殊的代澳新你們都知道代澳新是不能用TCLP檢測出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10916.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10942.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
所以呢這個是檢測頻率你們也不足人家每批風險相對低的是每批你們風險高的是半年才抽人家再利用的限制是每一批出來都要穩定化安定化無害化融融化才可以再利用你們是不用你們的失業費幾乎是可以物理處理的方式直接做成CLSM就回田田地也可以 田管溝也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10943.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10969.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
而且你們的人家一般垃圾焚化爐公有焚化爐燒出來飛灰要經過中央主管機關許可才能再利用啊你們是直接有許可證直接就繼續去利用然後呢人家一般公有垃圾一般垃圾燒出來飛灰要納管到SWIMS追蹤監測系統而你們環管署是申報一下有報就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10971.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10990.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
因為法規上漏洞這麼嚴重包委員那我這個會後再提供詳細那跟我不要提供詳細資料那目前就是在事業廢棄文化裡面他基本上灰灰跟渣是分開的而且他都會進行檢測那灰灰的部分絕大部分都是去固化掩埋或者是像台灣岡聯去做那個處理你現在不要再說這個了什麼台灣岡聯你有法律強制規定你的事業廢棄物一定要到台灣岡聯岡聯裡面燒解融融嗎有規定嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11000.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11006.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
法律有規定嗎你講的是如果發現檢出有害物質的話才要這樣子沒有的話是沒有餒人家一般垃圾燒出來就一定要逐批驗然後都一定要燒融安定化無害化你們沒有 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11022.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11042.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
所以寶弟我現在要問你這個問題你聽得到嗎我現在不是在說新竹而已我在跟你講你灰灰管制上你從它這個焚化爐的廠別的定義你決定了它的管制強度不一樣變成雙軌而且是高風險的管制的鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11043.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11068.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
相對低風險的管制的嚴在台灣現行制度下焚化灰灰的管制強度是取決於焚化爐的定義是一般垃圾焚化爐還是失業廢棄物焚化爐而不是取決於灰灰本身的化學特性風險危害沒有耶 保定 你也講兩句 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11069.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11075.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我回去會再來瞭解然後這個如何在法規上面做一個精進或調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11076.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11099.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個刻不容緩啊 是不是說不論焚化廠它是哪一種焚化廠灰飛只要是灰飛它的很多的風險和有害的特性會是很像的特別是事業廢棄物的風險更高它還有高濃度的重金屬 鉛 鎘 鎘 鎘 鎘帶澳新 湖南或其他有毒的物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11100.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11124.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這些垃圾的這些特性這有毒毒害的特性不會因為他的焚化爐叫做什麼名字就改變所以現行制度卻允許說啊 焚化廠的名字不一樣管理的就不一樣因為產源定性不同就適用截然不同的管制標準這是不應該的而且我一直在講TCLP去判定制度讓灰飛有機會逃脫有害的認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11126.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11153.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
你們就是用TCLP在半年抽驗一次啊因為你們有害事業廢棄物認定標準獎焚化的灰灰他沒有直接列入副表的製成有害事業廢棄物喔沒有喔代耗心是最大的風險可是你們沒有檢測代耗心以外你用TCLP的容出去判定是不是有害而且判定有沒有代耗心這就是作假 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11153.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11170.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
用TCLP去判定有沒有戴耗心這是不可能的絕對無法容出的所以你們的數據用這個來包庇他變成不是有害的這個就是作假跟包庇所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11172.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11190.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
只要某次數據檢測未超過TCLP的溶出標準會非全台灣的試驗廢棄物用一個檢查不出有毒物質的TCLP的檢測方法就歸類為一般試驗廢棄物這就是問題 你知道這就是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11197.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11214.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我已經講很多年了我知道那我是第一次聽你講那我這個會回去來了解那必要的時候就來檢討但是公有公有焚化爐有改啊可是他們你們遇到事業廢棄物的焚化爐這些民間財團自己經營的焚化爐就不敢改 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11215.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11240.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那我要再講說新竹的案例曝露的不是只有灰飛的問題而且還有中央管理系體系的缺陷一座一天處理250噸生活垃圾的大型設施資料卻不在環管署的SWIM系統因為它是事業廢棄物焚化爐嘛等於是中央對全台灣一般廢棄物處理量能的掌握出現缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11241.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11265.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
而且同時在這裡環管署跟循環署之間全責劃分產生灰色地帶環管署在新竹這個個案上發現問題卻被擋在門外然後他們告知循環署 循環署沒有無動於衷延遲行動然後地方政府還可以依場別的定性拒絕中央進場查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11266.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11272.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這一個問題制度面的問題管理制度面的問題全責釐清的問題絕對不會只有這一個場任何一座同時處理生活垃圾跟事業廢棄物但是被定義為事業廢棄物焚化廠的設施都出現同樣的監督缺口所以在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11287.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11314.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
此外還有一些部分焚化爐像桃園的新榮焚化廠桃園它本來是以BOO的模式營運垃圾焚化廠合約屆期以後它變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠它的管制標準也降階 降階保定這問題很嚴重這是你們內部這光是管理的體系都出問題制度面都出問題這邊怎麼管 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11318.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11337.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這個問題新竹的部分我們已經我說從新竹你看到你還管署要進去他不能進去不給他進去找你們還管署還管署說我不管現在要怎麼辦不會他們已經有在管我講的就是事實啊當然有在管啊如果慢了幾拍啊慢了很多拍啦地方政府不讓你們進去這個問題怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11341.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11365.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這個是整個大制度他這個案子本身就有一定的這個案子新竹這個案子本身就有他的這個問題存在所以我們目前制度面有沒有問題有問題要不要改這個目前第一個是他的有沒有違法的問題這個有單位正在偵辦當中我們包庇在這邊說這個就不要講這個個案我都講弊案我也不講啦我在講制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11366.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11385.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
就是你有責任的制度制度的部分我會再來檢討改進好 我現在再告訴你國際上對焚化灰灰的基準判斷相當一致反正灰灰它含有很多的重金屬 氮二辛等持久性的有機污染物國際都把它優先視為是危險或特別管理的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11386.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11400.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
而絕對不是像台灣一樣把它列為是一般廢棄物日本的學界在整理廢棄物處理及清掃法的修法歷程的時候明確指出一般廢棄物分化揮飛自1991年起就納入1991年內30幾年前就納入了特別管理廢棄物的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11408.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11415.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
因為它的風險特別高而不會說它是燒一般垃圾的灰灰 和燒世界廢棄物的灰灰然後跟台灣一樣 人的病風險高的寬鬆 絕對不可能歐盟在廢棄物的目錄中將含危險物質的焚化灰灰編為代碼190103加星字號標示為危險廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11432.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11449.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
而且要求要依廢棄物框架指令所列的危害特性HP1到HP15判定是不是屬於危險廢棄物凸顯了它的高風險本質而日本在處理的技術上他特別管理廢棄物的會飛都要融融 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11452.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11470.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
要燒解 要讓它無害化 水泥固化 化學穩定化使重金屬和代號芯固定在穩定的向中最終通過最終的處分場然後收納的標準 才可以掩埋或有限度的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11471.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11492.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
然後在歐盟呢 焚化的灰灰管理不僅是說是否危險廢棄物的分類它含危險物質的灰灰被編定為190103新字號是否危險廢棄物我剛剛講了 還需要符合這個廢棄物框架指令附入3所界定的多重危害特性 毒性 腐蝕性 生態毒性等 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11493.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11511.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那歐盟在埋田廠的指令進一步規範危險廢棄物掩埋場對廢棄的收納標準還必須考慮重金屬溶出溶解性鹽類有機碳等指標而不是單一的TCLP的數據就判定依據所以歐盟每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11513.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11540.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
完整的管理鏈從危險分類經過預處理穩定化到最終也買場收納標準都有很明確的技術門檻跟監測方法絕對不可能像台灣用少次的TCLP檢驗就把大量的灰灰物質視為一般廢棄物然後去做CLSM回填管溝再利用然後呢還有亂丟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11542.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11566.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
所以現行的有害事業廢棄物認定標準高度的然後用TCLP單一溶出實驗這種是環境風險實驗不是有毒有害物質檢查實驗然後你們這樣子去包庇掩護有毒的戴奧馨所以在這種狀況裡面當然大家都逃過有害廢棄物的分類的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11567.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11591.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以台灣是這樣子那從國際NGO的角度來看,焚化灰灰的風險都被認為是長期低估的國際持久性的有機污染物消除網絡IPEN在一個after incineration toxic ash problem的報告裡面它系統性的分析,多國焚化灰灰樣本 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11592.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11601.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
指出灰飛碗碗成宅的焚化體系當中多數的代澳新的負荷而我們都知道代澳新會怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11603.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11625.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
有什麼人體風險大阿新的人體風險是什麼很毒的四肢之毒會致癌致癌它的毒性在現行排放和風險評估框架下常被低估所以IPEN他們主張各國在實踐巴薩爾公約和持有性有機污染物管理時應該針對會會採取更嚴格的限職和危險廢棄物的認定標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11630.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11654.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
避免會被藉由再利用的名義進入循環的體系而台灣呢 台灣呢我剛剛講喔 我再講一個數據喔這個監察院的數據因為一般垃圾公有焚化爐有監測我就講了 他們每一批都要監測帶耗芯事實上呢 他們在公有焚化廠揮飛穩定化的帶耗芯及重金屬減重 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11656.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11678.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
檢測結果 監察院報告 112到113年期間檢測的最大值戴奧辛毒性當量濃度 每每很多場像樹林八里 像後里烏日 像台中文山 像新店 像北投 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11679.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11705.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
其實它的濃度都非常接近臨界值管理的臨界值0.9 0.8 0.7 0.96都接近臨界值一般生活垃圾它的灰飛就是它的代號性都接近臨界值你看那些事業廢棄物多嚴重會更嚴重所以現在有幾座被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的焚化設施寶丁你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11710.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11724.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
全台灣有幾座 焚化設施是定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的大型小型一共有幾座你不知道 這裡的書店也不知道 藥物單位也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11726.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11746.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好委員這個部分我們回去再做一個完整的一個通盤的檢討因為法例如果需要修的話我們絕對責務旁貸很多要修的很多各事業廢棄物文化有產生的會不會用什麼代碼去申報然後各廠這些事業廢棄物的各廠的會不會TCLP的檢測還有戴耀新的歷次檢測數據頻率還有次數還有數據是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11751.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11767.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
不知道顯然不知道嘛提供資料來所以你們中央對事業廢棄物焚化廠灰飛的流向你們不在乎你們也沒有找缺乏基本的掌握所以你根本不知道有沒有被不當的處理有沒有亂丟 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11769.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11784.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
通通都不知道公有的只有10%在利用其他跑去哪裡民間的通通都跑去哪裡不知道然後呢我剛剛講的新榮桃園新榮焚化廠本來用BOO或BOT營運的這個焚化廠合約借起後變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠他的匯費管制就從他本來燒一般垃圾降階為事業廢棄物焚化廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11799.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11801.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
他的管制就鬆綁了管理就降階了啊這種東西你要怎麼補這個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11810.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11834.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這個也是問題耶我本來是本來是BOT在燒一般垃圾的現在時間到了我變成民營的我要燒失業費器物了他的揮飛的管理就降階了以前是BOT公委託公部門委託你經營的時候你的揮飛的管制是每批都要驗的啊做無害化安定化穩定化融融現在都沒有了現在降階了都不知道了那你修訂的法規這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11842.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11865.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這個問題這麼多然後呢你這個整個修法大概要多久的時間然後整體我剛剛講的問題很多我先回去了解一下整個的狀況然後我們再排定一個計畫再跟委員來討教謝謝你要多久啦我們不想要拖啦更不要講說事實上都亂丟啦灰飛都亂丟啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11868.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11882.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
風險最大的做成CLSM的未來的石油管自然水管天然氣管化學管大家自求多福啦什麼時候會不會腐蝕腐蝕要很久20年30年啦等到哪一天氣爆也不足為期了30年後漏水就漏水鑄鐵管漏水 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11895.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11904.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以你是不是要跨部門 跨單位去跟他們討論其實他們的鑄鐵管都要包覆防鏽 防屎 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11906.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11931.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
知事體大不要一天大碗講綠能啦不要一天大碗在講暖化你的最正本清源環境部最該管的就是這些垃圾失業廢棄物啦跟人民健康風險跟環境土地有沒有汙染最攸關的就是失業廢棄物的管理政策啦從以前就輕放到現在謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11936.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11956.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好 謝謝蘇芬委員發言 接下來請圖全吉委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長 有請彭部長 我們循環署賴署長循環署賴署長圖委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11959.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11987.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
好 部長那今天先跟您討論一下我們一般廢棄物回收清除處理辦法我們廢清法裡面回收業者針對分類行為及中間處理行為這一方面的界定那我們針對像我們鋁罐我們壓扁鋁罐這也是屬於我們的物理行為那我們壓扁鋁罐最主要目的就是我們把它壓緊之後打包成一個立方體 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11988.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12002.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
也讓我們回收業者方便運輸方便儲存那可是針對同樣的情況那為什麼像我們採檢鋼筋那這部分回收業者他可以處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12006.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12027.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
謝偉這個目前的法規是不行但是目前我們也瞭解到這個狀況有在瞭解說看怎麼樣來修改法規然後讓這些業者可以多做這些工作因為現在就面臨這個問題我相信署長針對這部分很多業者也反映了鋼筋它拆解下來這麼長它要怎麼載 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12029.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12047.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
他要怎麼去運送那最後你還是要去採檢那回收業者採檢完之後他再去處理這樣子他也好運輸而且你重點他如果沒有採檢下來他到那個爐也是沒有辦法去熔煉對不對那針對這部分而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12050.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12065.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
奇怪的是好像我們中央的認定標準也不一有些縣市允許有些縣市不允許會開罰所以我覺得這中央這個標準根本沒有說明清楚是不是這樣各位報告那 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12066.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12085.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
因為過去像這些採檢室比較接種人力現在大部分都是用接種機器這個機器的形態就跟過去不同所以跟現在法規有些比較寫得不清楚的地方我們在前陣子就了解到這個情形有跟業者來座談也到現場去把它的每一種樣態弄清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12087.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12113.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那我們現在有兩個方案就是去修公告那這個修正的方式呢最近已經邀請要邀請環保局還有業者來討論要怎麼樣來修改那進行意見交換那等要收集他的意見我們就可以進行一個法規的調整對啊你看他現在工人在現場用洋語訣去把它截短這樣又可以可是反而用油壓機去把它剪短又說不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12114.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12128.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
同樣是物理的行為這個是不是難怪一般業者無所適從而且真的據我們了解他們現在都搞不清楚有些限制法有些限制不處理所以你這部分是要修改法規嗎還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12129.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12156.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
對這個地方因為執行的是地方環保機關那我們現在等於是了解到這樣的狀況那也會跟這個地方環保機關來溝通然後我們覺得溝通完了之後大概四月中的左右會溝通然後完了之後接下來就可能可以啟動法規修改的程序那這大概要多久如果是這個五月開始來進行法規那通常法規的程序大概要三個月就是要預告然後要延商 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12158.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12186.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好那這個我希望是要盡快啦因為這已經造成我們基層業者無所適從啊對啊這個中央這個標準認定就不一而且確實如果照你們中央這樣根本就是讓他們完全沒有辦法達到運送儲存的問題而且最後他到到爐要去熔煉的時候他還是要去採檢啊所以與其這樣為什麼不一樣物理的行為前面採檢完 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12188.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12210.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
讓他好運輸到爐去溶解的時候馬上就可以去做不然這運送的過程中你要多長的車去載而且在路上造成更多我們用路人的安全的問題好這部分我相信署長應該很了解啦可是因為業者一直認為說這個事情也反映那麼久沒有看到一個具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12211.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12229.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
好那這部分也希望部長居然已經這個問題已經發生那大家已經知道這問題確實去需要去修正希望能夠盡快來辦理沒有問題謝謝委員好那我們再討論一下現在因為中東戰爭的問題也更加凸顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12232.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12255.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我們關鍵原物料跟關鍵戰略金屬那其實在這部分本席在年前的時候在立法院有成立我們關鍵原物料與循環經濟促進聯盟那在上週我們未還委員會也特別到屏東去考察走訪這業者目的也是希望針對現在世界各國 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12256.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12274.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
對於我們關鍵原物料缺乏的問題也希望訂定相關的政策那之前我有詢問過部長你說有做初盤的初步的盤點那目前這部分都盤點好了嗎目前有兩個部分一個是稀土的這個提煉是由經濟部在負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12274.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12293.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我們是負責內循環的一個部分所以這個部分呢我們大概有找了十幾家業者也了解他們的這個動態那比較重要的是說未來的需求在哪裡例如說誰需要這個關鍵的貴氣金屬那這個部分我們希望能夠了解的更多所以這個部分還在正在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12294.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12309.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好那針對這部分喔其實我們盤點出來我相信部長應該也了解啦我們希望因為其實他這個金屬我們成立關鍵原物料四大國家隊那這個四個金屬我們單一金屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12310.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12335.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
能源金屬基礎金屬還包含這個矽土可是它每個金屬裡面即使又包含了很多的金屬像我們能源金屬裡面有鋰有鈷有鎳那其實範圍非常非常的廣那我們現在也希望部長針對盤點出來的部分你不可能每樣去做是不是應該針對有些重要的部分去聚焦 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12335.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12363.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
像有些我們回收之後我們根本沒有技術可以去做加工那可是台灣有些是有技術可以做加工的但是因為他量太少所以成本太高所以這部分是不是部長有別的方法去怎麼樣子去處理讓我們台灣本身有技術可以做加工的部分怎麼樣子讓他去增加他的原料降低他的成本才有辦法去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12364.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12388.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這個部分這四大金屬裡面有的台灣是很強但是有的是需要國際的技術合作甚至我們還要考慮到他會不會有一些污染的一個情況所以這個狀況不一樣那我們現在有一個做法是我們也跟我們友好的國家有在洽談這個相關合作的一個細節還有包含的整個量能因為其實我們如果押寶某一個金屬其實在全世界的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12389.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12412.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
兩個供應鏈鏈體系的話另外一邊就會故意把這個價錢拉下來就會造成整個產業的崩盤所以我們也在密切注意等於是說一個產業鏈的這個形成跨國的合作這個是必要的不然的話這個產業在台灣都是非常辛苦的所以目前的我們的確內部的在盤點他的量能他的技術還有我們的需求甚至還有國際供應鏈的問題現在正在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12413.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12416.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
對啊所以剛才講說我們現在已經初步盤點之後那現在我說因為中東戰爭的影響特別又凸顯了這方面問題因為各國對於稀土貴稀金屬這些出口都有嚴格的限制也導致現在這些原物料的成本相對的提高但是也確實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12434.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12443.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
尤其我們本身台灣自己本身針對這部分的需求也是非常非常的大我相信像我們循環署也跟我們經濟部產發署應該都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12447.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12462.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
開會討論這些循環經濟這些原物料部分應該都有去討論過那像部長剛剛講當然你說有些原物料可能有污染的問題所以藉由這些你盤點之後所以我們說應該去做一些篩檢篩檢出來之後哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12465.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12479.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
是我們有技術可以加工而且非常重要是不是找一些國家來進口來進口之後我們原物料這些量大之後成本就自然降低所以應該針對這部分應該部長應該是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12483.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12507.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這部分應該要好好的來規劃一下我們現在正在進行當中不過因為如果進口國外的電子廢棄物的話或是相關廢棄物的話其實還是有環保法規的共識的一個問題這個需要再溝通我們也要評估會不會對台灣的環境我們的廢棄物處理事業廢棄物都有一點困難的情況下能不能容許的更多這個都需要整體評估所以這些事情我們都同步在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12508.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12523.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那你有沒有預估大概要多久的時間怎麼去嚴領有哪些國家的是可以開放讓他再循環利用這些再生料進口到我們這邊來然後讓我們這些業者有技術然後又能夠進這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12525.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12549.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
原物料之後讓他成本來降低來增加我們國防戰略金屬謝偉因為這個其實這些的貴旗金屬的公司並不是很多就集中在某些然後他的這個也有一些商業機密的問題所以我們要統計這個資料的時候都非常的謹慎小心那我們當然是希望業者跟我們說的多一點點我們可以掌握多一點點但是有些業者他有他的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12550.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12579.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
所以我們如何能夠在幫助這個產業能夠順利的發展還需要一點點時間因為目前這個整個產業的結構我們需要跟經濟部密切的合作才能夠在內循環或在稀土裡面因為有些東西是稀土可以處理有些東西是內循環可以處理這兩邊如何做好一個融合還要跨部會再開會那我們內部已經開過幾次的會議還要再往前推進所以這個未來我們會跟經濟部有一個平台都在討論這個事情那我們是希望說是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12579.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12601.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我們是一季一季來看這樣的一個推動的速度啦那業者的聲音我們也會定期的掌握但是恐怕沒有辦法那麼快因為這個東西也要看國際局勢的一個演變對啊所以我說本來這個AI產業對於我們這些貴稀金屬大家各國都已經非常重視剛好現在因為中東戰爭又更加的凸顯這一方面問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12602.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12616.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以我們本身台灣這個產業這些金屬對我們來講都是非常重要而且也可以說是世界各國國防戰略非常重要的一些關鍵原物料那所以也希望我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12617.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12641.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
環境部針對這一部分也要更加的來重視而且居然我們已經有初步盤點那現在也有很多業者提出來說我們是有這個技術的只是真的成本太高所以希望我們環境部能夠礙於我們業者所提出的還有針對我們國家這些戰略關鍵物料部分我們好好的不單來盤點一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12643.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12670.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
然後怎麼樣子來評估怎麼去到其他的友好國家來進這些原物料讓我們的成本降低然後我們有技術來去加工好 謝謝我們正在進行當中好 那這部分也請部長盡快來處理OK 好 謝謝沒問題 謝謝好 謝謝圖權及委員發言待會中嘉賓委員詢答完畢後休息30分鐘用餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12675.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12677.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好 感謝主席 我們請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12698.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12723.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
侯委好部長好 部長兩個議題第一土方之亂從今年的1月開始到現在真的到現在大家還是覺得是說還是有沒有辦法去化的一個問題那尤其是土方處理費我們聽說是已經飆漲了五六倍之多那現在的問題點在於是你盤點了應該內政部負責還是應該環境部負責但你盤點了一些去化的地點到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12724.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12742.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
找不到合格的土方回收場那就變成是說找相關的填海造陸的部分所以本席的台北港也被點名了那現在新北市府這邊說有規劃要做一個戰治場但地方的鄉親反彈會以及說懷疑說到底戰治場還是永久場 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12742.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12768.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
未來會不會放在那邊暫置然後就變永久之後所有土方全部都來這邊來做一個去化部長是不是可以說明一下因為其實土方不做不行啦不然的話就每天我們都一直看到氣質北部往中南部到中南部往南部到所以這個是一直國人的痛啦幾十年來沒有解決問題所以我們很認真的要去追隨我們看到很多非法的土方氣質不管是高雄不管是台南地方政府當然要去追查 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12768.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12787.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
不要說有包庇啊不要上下其手但是這一個部分我現在非法的部分我們一定強烈要求要取締這沒有問題沒有人要掩護非法但現在是你們倉促上路的政策結果到最後變成是我們地方要來接收這些原本不在我們的土方好那來 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12788.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12817.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
即便是來那你說戰志我有查到一個資料說你說一年內可以戰志完畢等於是說戰志場工程生退我想請教因為我們到地方的時候問他沒有辦法有一個明確的保證是說戰志只有一年因為這個最主要是這個台北港他如果要填土方的話那個需要環評還有一些程序那個還有一點時間所以那個時間差裡面他先開了一塊可以做戰志場跟台北跟新北來做一個使用所以目前這是一個戰志而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12818.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12845.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
兩個部分台北港現在聽說啊有要再跟環境部申請環評就是說還要再增加填海的量是從原本的好像400萬噸要變成500萬噸這是台北港他們要去送嘛可是另外一個部分是我們也看到那就變成是說量會集中會更大那我們要看到的另外一個部分是那戰制場到底要戰制多久戰制通常就是等那個環評過了他可以開始填埋的時候再行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12846.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12858.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以如果說現在我那我這樣子我直接比較明確的講因為現在地方政府沒有辦法跟我們承諾那如果說我們這個戰制下去了那未來一年內有沒有辦法他就可以攻城深退老闆請 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12860.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12875.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
跟委員這邊報告那我想土方目前因為現在突然之間的量變大那我們現在已經努力他不是量變大是突然之間你們政策改了然後又沒有配套措施所以說土方沒地方去沒有因為說台灣突然間量 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12876.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12896.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
增出來量都是那麼多只是過去大家不願意處理那沒關係你要處理可是你也要想出配套措施而不是突然間1月1號開始執行然後就變成是大家要幫忙沒有沒有那個不能這樣說我們廢棄物土方都有管制土方是沒有管制所以我們土方就管制合理是那就過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12897.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12926.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
好 不管是藍營有執政過綠營也執政過但是綠營現在也執政10年了你突然間2026年1月1號是說你們換了一個新制度然後讓它變成是土方大家全部都要面對這個問題台灣是我們大家共同的土地但我現在要問的是原本它要在其他地方處理如果合格的土地等等的那現在很大部分雙北至少第一階段雙北的公共工程的土方就要來台北港嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12927.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12955.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那現在台北港外有一個佔滯場一直講說佔滯那我們要問的是佔滯要佔滯多久跟委員這邊報告因為我們現在主要是穩定它的數量因為台北港進港的數量每天是有限量的一個有一個限量有一個上限那我們現在先而且現在台北港它的收土量也有增加的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12956.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12971.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
額度進去了那所以說慢慢的我們現在戰事場只是先讓土方突然就是目前正在開發的土方有一個先戰事的地方讓工程不要終止造成公共危害的情形所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12973.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12989.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
戰車場只是一個臨時的一個功能而已你講的都是我的問題我現在就是說臨時的功能我們都理解但是你那些土方原本不在那個地方那你現在在巴黎地區找了一塊空地而且那一塊空地以往還是算所謂的失地喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12990.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13007.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
但你們現在把它搞出來之後然後就現在要來做這個站制那站制還要在那邊破碎等於是有比較大塊的那些混凝土你要在那邊用怪手把它破碎所以也會造成飛塵跟噪音嘛那完了之後再送進台北港去做填土但我們現在要問的是好 臨時 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13009.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13035.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那為什麼不能說在港區裡面為什麼要在外面距離民宅比較近這是一點那選地本來就有問題那另外一點本期更要問的是那你臨時你可以多久因為部長之前有講過說有信心一年之內所有戰事場就可以退場嘛那我們現在要問是說這個承諾還算不算還是你下去之後永久變成是巴黎民眾以後就要跟這個戰事場共舞共存 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13037.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13061.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
阿你就戰志就不叫戰志阿你就變成是永久土方處理廠阿那只是名字好聽而已那這樣我們民眾怎麼有辦法接受目前雙北的部分就是台北港的部分目前是預計一年一年那一年到了好因為現在我知道四月雙北地區公共工程也有壓力所以說他們也希望能夠禁訴那如果假設這樣的話明年四月可以退場 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13062.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13089.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那我們要問的是說明年4月退場的機制在哪邊是以後明年4月就不用再破碎了可以直接就進台北港直接到現在就是台北港的量如果足夠進去的話那當然這邊的戰資場的數量就可以慢慢的去劃掉了那目前我們預估是一年因為我們現在都已經在尋求更多的土資場讓他可以收集更多的量好來那部長謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13091.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13113.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這算是你的承諾嗎明年的這時候不用我再回來的時候還看到那個地方還在營運這個是國土署在處理的但是我們會密切注意這個東西因為他們現在是卡在環評環評大概要一段時間然後才能夠一年後才把那個開出來誰卡在環評呃他的台北港要台北港卡在環評台北港的到因為本席有聽到消息是台北港現在也要送環評申請從400萬變500萬那假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13116.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13136.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
一樣是在我們環評委員的這個專業評估判斷下認為可行那這個土方的戰志場就可以退場是不是好所以本席現在先確認因為要讓我們地方知道是說這個戰志不是永久不要到時候變成是你設了之後乞丐敢妙攻到時候變成是民眾要跟你這個忍受 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13138.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13158.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
本席一年的時間本席一定會追這個進度而且這個也算是我們中央部會的承諾請一定要繼續做到 包委員這個也要地方單位要很努力來支持所以新北市也有一個平台所以這個是中央跟地方協力在做的台北新北當然都支持啊所以說現在新北已經把 支持也要來做喔新北已經把地都貢獻出來還不算支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13159.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13178.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那個地 照理講那個地算是不管是中央也好 地方也好我們現在地方是承受台灣 北台灣的這個戰志嘛那我們現在要的是說你們的政策不能倉促上路之後到最後我們找一塊地然後要幫你們變成戰志的地方然後結果遙遙無期到時候這個地方就變成是永久的戰志區 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13180.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13205.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這個是本席一定要提醒的來 那第二個部分因為本席剛剛講兩個問題 抱歉因為剛剛這個回答比較久一點我再點一下一個時間是 剛剛林淑芬委員講那麼久你這樣子主席你真的是很大小眼本委跟外委那都一樣我們都是委員同仁我們的問題那麼的重要如果說你連多一分鐘兩分鐘當然可以馬上 沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13210.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13231.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
部長現在有反應是說民眾都買不到14公升的環保袋那我覺得這可能跟經濟部有相關那我現在想要確認一下因為經濟部他現在要解決這問題明明一開始跟他們講說中東戰火或是說這個相關原物料都說沒有缺乏但現在經濟部想要解決問題反而是說要增量5000噸的平價塑膠袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13234.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13262.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那是不是又跟我們的這個減速訴求又有相抵觸那到底現在我們的塑膠袋有沒有缺有沒有人囤積有沒有這個相關供貨的問題目前這個雙北市的這個市府的這個付費的垃圾袋是沒有問題的民眾有反應有買不到那個其實是在整個供應鏈裡面對好那另外一部分經濟部現在說要宣布增產5000噸的平價塑膠袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13265.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13279.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那我們到底想問的是你一方面跟我們講說原料沒有問題一方面跟我們講供貨沒有問題但是你現在又說我要宣布要增加5000噸的平價塑膠袋那不就跟我們減速的政策又背道而馳沒有沒有那到底你們安金部跟經濟部兩個是怎麼樣來溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13281.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13295.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
第一個是民眾的日常生活當中最後一哩路這個攤販夜市等等他需要一種所提的塑膠袋那的確有些可能在供貨有預期心理之下他會搶購所以造成沒有是他們是安定人心那對我們來說當然是推動減塑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13297.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13315.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
所以大力在推動啊所以我現在要問的是說像這個五千噸的塑膠袋它會是最後一波嗎還是說這未來變成是常態還是你要無限量五萬噸五千噸有多少呢12.5億個因為已經超過五分鐘了12.5億個跟委員說明因為過去除了有國內生產所以現在是為了要後面委員要趕行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13322.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13348.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以現在是委員敢形成我當然考慮啊所以說你如果說召委你要召委如果說你要這樣子控管的話那應該就是從源頭管理每一位委員都有一定的標準嗎我當然互相但是我現在是你看現在官員要講然後就被人打斷那其實官員這一些時間早就官員就可以講完了不是嗎來一分鐘一句話簡單說明一下你們現在到底是跟委員報告現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13350.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13365.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
現在是那個短期在應急而已啦不是一個常態性的這跟委員說一個所以會不會還有再增加的一個政策目前的是這個狀況啦當然還要看國際局勢又看國際局勢又不是這個掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13367.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13381.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
本席再次強調如果說要的話政府是一體的應該政策要一致性而不是每一次又跟我們講這一套但是做得又一套讓民眾無所適從我想這才是本席今天提出的問題不會無所適從這是兩個不一樣政策的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13384.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13409.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
本席想要結束這個質詢是因為本席還對你的專業有尊重但如果說你每一次都要用這種強化的方式或者說你每次都要因為本席現在就看到民眾的反應是最直接的嘛過去一個月就是有發生很多的塑膠袋之亂過去一個月就是有很多民眾都說買不到塑膠袋過去的一個月就是看到經濟部一方面又講是說沒有缺單一方面又說要增量 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13410.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13432.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那我們到底想問的是說今天召委排那麼專業的一個報告就是要讓大家釐清這個狀況啊每次都是這樣在硬拗哎民進黨政府現在是硬拗誠信了然後連大白話都不能講就對了對因為那現在好謝謝召委好謝謝洪文凱委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13441.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13449.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
主席辛苦了 難為 我也盡量的能夠把握時間來有請我們環境部的彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長等一下 因為還沒上線 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13457.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13484.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
等一下OK好統籌各部會穩工跟減瘦配合建立供料順位及提升再生料的循環我接下來的問題剛好可以滿足剛剛來不及跟紅委員回覆的我先請教部長你有沒有聽過這種瘦瘦針有打下去一針就見效一個月可以減一公斤那請問你可以控制他減哪裡嗎他整個壓抑你的食慾讓你強制減重對不對對這是個總量的減理但是有人去健身他叫什麼雕塑 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13485.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13507.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
該減的地方減,不該減的地方還是要擴張的機率,是不是?是好,所以我覺得我們的減碩啊,不能從瘦瘦真的總量,要從什麼?健身雕塑來上,往下看來,平常減碩跟非常瘦的限碩,平常我們減碩,你目前是採取總額目標管理嘛,5%、10%你們定目標嘛但是在非常實習的限碩,我們有沒有提供一個配額給不同的需求者? |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13508.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13534.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
然後我再往下看你可能還在疑惑來我認為環境部門應該跨部會趁著這次危機不要浪費了任何一次危機農業部有沒有用資材農業的資材有沒有用塑有嘛衛生部有沒有用醫材有啊你的點滴你現在用玻璃瓶掉點滴還是用塑膠瓶掉點滴是塑膠瓶嗎經濟部有沒有包材物流業者要很多包裝嘛請問你覺得哪一個最重要如果要定優先順位的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13535.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13561.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
必要性跟急迫性必要性的話如果可以做的話應該是經濟部跟農業部經濟部跟農業部的包裁或是資產這個可以剪可以剪醫材要優先供應對醫材優先供應好請問衛福部環境部那你們平常有對這些使用塑料的這些材料有去進行一些用途別的管控跟用量的掌握以及它的急迫性跟缺口性的排序嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13562.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13575.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
包委員 目前沒有很好 我這樣一句話就夠了目前沒有 以後要有 來往下看其實我們塑膠原物料的管理應該有一個全社會防衛的一個韌性的概念非防時期我料進不來了本來需要100 只進來了60那我要分配給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13579.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13601.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我不是叫他一律檢打六折欸我要有系列的去分配所以呢包括在美國在國防生產法在歐盟他有一個關鍵原物料法案他都對這些事情有所規範部長可不可以去參考一下好可以我們塑膠的確沒有放在這裡面你好所以呢我接下來要問的是接下來下一頁就是環境部的總量分配資材 醫材跟包材 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13602.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13624.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
不能夠是打瘦瘦針一樣我現在料不夠啦我全部都給我說幾成不是而是怎樣要源頭的管制管制的內容還要很重要的甚至要鼓勵回收再生料對不對進來的新的沒進來就得繼續用看怎麼回收使用所以目前這一次雖然是中東的戰火讓我們在進原料的部分受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13625.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13642.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
減工但是你要穩工還要怎樣還要配合減塑所以剛剛幾位委員知道我認為部長講得很好沒有衝突是並工的是要穩工但是要減塑但是你要什麼你要不同用途類別的Priority優先順位的排序跟他分別配合的管制思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13643.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13670.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
部長有沒有辦法做到這一點這個我們會來研究因為委員提到建議比較好因為我們現在全面性的做的確會遇到一些瓶頸那委員如果對症效要譬如說減了一個那是有用的好所以我來跟你講我是來自農業縣其實我們農業在進行再生料的循環我們一方面減料一方面回收還要用什麼二次的使用的再生料其實農業部他要回收農磨要清洗要再利用這個有沒有得到環境部的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13672.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13689.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
有沒有有這個我們有在那個跟農業部一起推動那再生料的話現在有建立這個二次料的一個平台對我跟你講一下署長部長我上次有為了一個農藥的包裝我有提到農藥的包裝回收很困難再製的原 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13690.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13709.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那個再生料它成本要高過去由於中國的經濟內捲它大量的塑膠原料低價傾銷所以進口的原生料比國內的再生料還要便宜很多結果再生料沒有人買資源回收做得下去嗎做不下去那請問環境部拿出什麼對策拿出什麼對策是不是你要有政策補貼是不是你要強制或鼓勵導入是不是這樣有沒有打算這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13719.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13744.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我們是從這個我們的一個回收基金的回收費裡面來做這個做法署長這個我們都是要討論過了是要讓部長知道你要指示我們署長是有關於政策補貼跟強制或鼓勵導入環境部要拿出資源出來才有辦法各部會聽你的你不能告各部會說我給你總量管制你配合多少 驗性是怎麼樣你同時要拿出什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13745.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13764.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
棒子之外有胡蘿蔔 你的胡蘿蔔在哪裡可以 我們現在其實目前我們的這個循環法裡面未來的這個東西會統一的來管理所以這個部分我們贊同委員的看法可以蘿蔔的部分可以更多一點點好 那最後的結論時間到了來 結論結論就是請環境部會同經濟部衛福部跟農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13766.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13780.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
提供各部會塑膠原料的需求他的優先順位清單也請讓你們設定主動減速的目標以及被動危機時候來臨的配額兩套邏輯可不可以去做可以沒問題好另外請農業部盤點農業再生資產的獎勵或補助計畫當他們提出來的時候請環境部也要去支持好不好好沒問題那這兩個結論什麼時候可以給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13791.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13796.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
兩個月 兩個月沒問題 希望空白支票讓你們簽 兩個月就兩個月 好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員發言 接下來請羅美玲發言謝謝主席 有請彭部長 有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13811.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13829.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
委員好部長好部長我們這次修正廢棄物清理法跟資源循環推動法其實最主要的目的就是要達到垃圾源頭減量還有資源循環跟這個環境永續的這個目的那正巧最近南投縣民間香焚化爐的設置案的這個議題引起了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13831.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13851.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
所謂這個選址的這個爭議那當然垃圾的去化是否非得靠焚化爐不可這方面最近也得到了很多的這個討論那其實水南頭縣是全國少數沒有焚化爐的這個縣市那垃圾的處理過去都是靠中央來做調度然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13851.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13866.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
再運到其他的縣市來做這個處理那環境部一直也都強調就是說南投縣必須要有垃圾自主處理的這個能力那站在環境部的這個專業垃圾的去化難道只有粉花路 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13867.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13892.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這一圖嗎那當然最近南投縣的縣民一直在在討論的就是說好那現在我們這個選址南投縣政府把這個焚化爐選址設在水源地而且是有這個茶香支撐的民間香所以當地的居民呢也都很擔心就是說那個焚化爐一設下去的話可能會讓整個茶產業崩盤那也擔心這水源地呢受到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13893.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13906.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
污染那對這個捉招環境可能會承受巨大的這個風險所以我想請教部長如果說設在任何一個鄉鎮其實我在想都會有所謂閒職的這個爭議的問題那以現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13910.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13926.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
類似去化來講的話是不是真的只有焚化物這一圖還是說其實我們還可以有多元的處理方式尤其是像南投縣南投縣像過去的話說實在我們所看到的它每天每天的一般廢棄物的生產的總計其實是有635公噸其中資源回收是351公噸除以16公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13936.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13955.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那巨大在利用的是9公噸那要處理的一般垃圾其實是259公噸那我們所知道就是說其實外送到其他縣市去處理的每日處理能力其實只有161噸那每天的這個垃圾的處理缺口是高達98噸的那再加上現在全縣的佔池總量是高達32.7萬噸像這樣子的狀況那垃圾的這個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13965.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13993.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我想請教部長我們有怎麼樣的一個建議除了焚化爐之外我們還有怎麼樣的一個處理方式尤其我本席所了解的就是說像我們南投縣的這個資源回收率是全國倒數第五的而且是低於全國的平均量那除以的處理也是這樣子所以表示說過去南投縣政府環保局對於處理這個一般廢棄物的這個態度是消極的所以我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13994.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14021.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
部長那我們今天討論的是資源回收的這個議題在這個部分部長你有怎麼樣的建議我建議說其實南投在源頭減量部分真的可以再加強因為他如果說以當然台北市是最高的到67左右那如果他可以往上提升他就可以顯著的這個減少這個原來的這個垃圾的量這個是顯著的可能會少個幾十噸那另外一個部分就是說如果垃圾分類的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14022.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14045.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
或是說這個無法處理的垃圾再經過一些篩分處理有變成不一樣的熱值那很多人簡化成是SRF啦這也是一種方式源頭減量最後末端的處理再精進當然要有沒有這個自己的自主處理設施那個可以再討論因為有選址的問題或方法的問題其實我是覺得都是可以有一種答案讓大家來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14046.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14069.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以部長你也覺得說像這個源頭資源回收率我剛有提到就是說南投的資源回收率其實只有55.24%它是低於全國平均值的57.03%那如果是說比如說台北市的話其實它是比這個台北市差了十幾個百分點這表示說這個部分其實還有努力的這個空間這表示說過去它是做得不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14070.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14093.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
是這個部分那我想請教一下環境部這部分的話有沒有要來做一個輔導南條縣政府環保局如果不知道怎麼做不會做那環保局環保署像過去以來的話有沒有在這方面提供他們這個意見因為我知道說焚化爐的議題可能會是很漫長的去到任何一個縣市大家其實都會有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14094.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14115.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以我們比較是希望朝向多元處理的這方式那環境部其實是可以提供很多的意見給南投縣環保局的那我不曉得說像過去的話至於他們的態度是什麼我想請教一下這過去因為長久以來這個我們補助給他們很多協助他們來做轉運的工作那其實這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14115.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14142.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
每年就几千万几千万过去那可能呢他就会养成了一个习惯就靠别人依赖性就够了那如果说自己必须要去面对处理尤其是他现在还有32万吨在那个地方我认为他可以再更积极一点那如果他们需要我们再大力的协助指导或是动员下去因为这个垃圾减量不是政府喊一喊而是全民县民要全部动起来我认为南投的确还有那个空间可以再减少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14143.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14157.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
是 其實這個垃圾山我們也知道已經到了這個臨界點確實是要去做處理可是我們所知道的就是說其實像過去為什麼會累積這麼多的生產量其實跟南投縣環保局的處理態度有很大的關係就是因為過去我們中央都會替他們來處理再運到別的縣市去照著他們其實是消極的那既然這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14168.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14188.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我是希望說往後如果環保環境部這邊的話可以提供這個專業的意見給他們因為我本身一直認為說其實焚花爐絕對不是唯一的途徑應該是用多元的方式來處理就像我們之前所討論的雞尾酒療法的這種多元的方式我想站在環境部的這個專業來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14190.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14214.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
應該給予南投縣環保局更多的這個建議跟意見是 沒錯 我們會來協助如果他們提出一個要求的話我們也會希望他們在這段時間溝通的過程當中能夠讓社會大眾能夠信賴能夠更充分的覺得如何去處置會更好要走出自己的一條路OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝羅美玲委員發言接下來請盧縣議委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14224.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14225.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
有請我們陳副署長有請陳副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14235.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14259.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
你好 你好 針對我們現在中東局勢跟國際油漆跟塑膠原料的價格明顯上升那現在國內的那個PVC漲了64%HDP漲了40%那我想請問一下國內民生跟醫療塑化原料的缺口的狀況現在政府的因應措施是什麼然後現在目前確實啟動了試鏡的提前運作4月以西提升到7.9萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14261.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14279.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
5月到9萬噸也協調20家加工業只增產那麼現在這套調度的一個機制到底是在穩定整體的關鍵物資還是在優先就一次性塑膠的用品我想知道醫療農業包採食品包採各自的缺口跟優先順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14281.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14307.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
跟委員做一個說明那這一塊的話確實是一個營運國際的一個短期的措施所以我們是從上鬆下游的話先把整個那個供應鏈的供應量全把它做一個監控然後也看一下市場的那個需求所以我們後面有所謂的一個專線還有包括那個網路看到有什麼樣的需求我們上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14308.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14333.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
上游的話來確保他的供應是沒有一個問題的那我還是強調這個東西的話像一些包括醫材啦包材啦這一些可以確定到一些商業性的發展還有醫療的相關的話我們會來優先那當成有一些是民生消費必需的話我們也要來做一個確保你確實是不會缺料就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14334.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14357.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我們現在的話會來做我們因為經濟部已經推了這個評價專案我們會來確保這個民生供應是沒有問題的好謝謝副署長那先請衛福部我們江署長江署長那現在我們想知道說現在的洗身帶我們的點滴軟帶這些成本他現在如果壓不住成本的話怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14359.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14377.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
委員好就剛才的提到的確這次中東戰事之後民生相關的議題原料部分上升了許多那衛福部食藥署跟健保署我們共同協作之下我們建立了一個單一的平臺接受通報因為目前的狀況是有8家的藥廠跟19家的醫材廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14380.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14406.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
其中8家藥廠我們其實都已經確定聯繫完成那目前供貨的情形持續由前端的我們這邊調查由食藥署後端的供貨包括包材廠以及我們的更上游的原料塑化原料由產發署這邊協助所以從雙方面來進行之下目前這整個的藥品的部分8家的都供應無虞 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14408.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14420.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
另外的包括醫材廠的部分我們最近評估起來有19家中呢最急迫的其實醫材的廠是有兩家兩家它下游裡面其實有包含了有 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14422.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14434.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
七家的整個的塑料供應商這七家塑料供應商他們說四月份目前的狀況比較吃緊所以我們立刻把相關的訊息其實轉給了產發署這邊的所以我們從兩方面雙署經濟部跟衛福部雙署這邊的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14440.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14465.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
各自下去把我們的訊息傳達到我們的醫材廠跟我們的藥品廠以及供料的廠部分從原料端供進來目前整個7家的一個供料說要供料是完整目前是無缺的其他還有一大部分是發現的是整體是有5月6月甚至年底他們很緊張所以目前都我們持續關注中所以目前那個我們所謂的200億健保準備金還能用到 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14467.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14495.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
目前呢其實健保署特別在昨天我們協同食藥署這邊共同去研議裡面相關的需要做調價的部分目前藥廠的部分提到藥品供應需要的成本增加有50家那醫材廠的部分也有數十家所以目前我們持續在針對每個個案去做一些討論那我們希望的是更源頭啦源頭端能夠補助之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14495.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14521.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
其實後端的部分調價就會比較不是那麼困難的去達成我們就會更直接的可以讓我們藥品跟醫材的供給能夠更為穩固醫生我看到醫療廢棄物大概是12.1萬噸有害失業廢棄物再利用率卻只有22.66%我想知道說像我們現在醫療廢棄物其實是很多是高品質的一些PPR PC塑膠那有沒有可能再提升它的再利用率 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14523.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14542.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
跟委員做進一步的說明這部分我們跟環境部可以共同的去研擬它的再利用因為牽涉到的就是有部分是接觸到血液這感染性的物質所以有一部分其實它是醫療廢棄物但是它並沒有接觸到所謂感染性的所以做這個區分在未來實際上是一個重要的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14543.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14558.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我是希望跟環境部能夠建立安全前提下的醫療塑膠循環路徑哪些品項是可以分流可以滅菌可以回收可以再利用的然後希望能夠可以報告一些進度到哪裡這樣謝謝好謝謝那我們請環境部長還有請園民會園民會專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14567.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14589.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我先就一些地方的議題問一下我們原民會跟環境部那我其實在去年的7月1號還有去年12月4號有針對信義鄉的一些環保園區有做了相關跨部的一個就是詢問跟看看是不是從各部分能夠有一些經費挹注所以我們我想知道現在信義鄉的環保園區的進度到哪裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14592.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14615.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
呃現在環保園區信義鄉不好意思這個部分因為我們不同住室這部分我們是不是事後再給我們一些進度因為他就我去其實已經召開過兩次會議也也親自去現地勘察其實他的相關所確實是很努力希望能夠就他們一個一個土地的規模去做他們已經很像那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14617.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14632.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
所謂的那個地方的他們的計畫都送到縣政府了那希望如果說真的看到的話希望環境部能夠加快動作讓他們實現他們所謂環保園區的一個這個願景跟願望啦好不好因為我們還沒有看到所以如果看到的話請委員再告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14632.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14652.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那今年的1月26號我有去村運鄉做實地的考察有提到優化回收處理的一些設施跟他的抓斗車那我想知道他們目前的進度到哪裡我知道很像去年部長有到馬家鄉也有允諾說要給抓斗車可是現在馬家鄉也是有跟我提議說到底車子什麼時候來 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14655.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14670.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
我們最近因為整個預算的關係整個都有點慢了下來所以這個誰要回應一下馬家鄉馬家鄉還有春月鄉回收車不是抓斗車抓斗車是春月鄉對那沒有關係我們沒有負責抓斗車有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14679.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14698.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那個也是因為現在預算的關係是屬於地方事務就比較沒有現在我們就針對今天的議題再問一下部長關於我有提一個修法就是32到35這邊有提到我們至於循環的一個推動裡面希望我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14700.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14720.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
在這個代表裡面三分之一外部代表不得少於三分之一裡面的要有一個原住民主代表然後希望我們這樣能夠給原住民地區法人或者是合作社從事回收在內的實質建築跟營運的補助那也希望針對原鄉興建及破棄的環保設施應該也要放寬它的土地變更的限制這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14721.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14743.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
因為其實原住民想做這些資源回收其實是很努力我相信你有去一些地方做考察過那我希望這部分能夠全部的支持我們偏向的困境因為我們有一些沒有辦法很難運輸的一個問題我們的量能也不足所以你如果說單就它的營運的這個利潤的話我相信就是很難去支撐這樣的一個環保設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14746.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14770.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
我們因為這個法案我們包含你說的資源循環推動會我們的確有在規劃那至於說給原鄉部落或是給原鄉的這個環保的設施的部分我們到時候等到這個法案進來的時候我們可以再來討論我是覺得原住民其實在整個環境的保護相對的有他一套的很好的邏輯我們都市人應該跟原住民學習的所以這個部分資源也應該要多一點才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14770.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14798.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
最多最後一個一個抱怨就是我們針對3月17號在林邊的一個就是等於是戰事場我們的太陽能板那大概他燃燒了4個小時然後他的面積大概是8千平方公尺那我其實去看了一下他的相關的新聞其實因為我在想是不是因為他是執政黨的縣市所以看起來很像在報導上面不僅只有一頁或者是說也沒有相關的一些後續報導我們想知道他到底有沒有處處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14799.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14823.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
然後其實看到一些報導的時候其實都是輕描淡寫比如說呢他只有講到PM2.5介於什麼多少一個值然後說他只是一個普通其實就燃燒四個小時然後其實然後在在那個四個小時當中其實他是很難撲滅然後呢他就算撲滅了他也再一次引起燃燒然後其實我們就大概都知道說你只有他 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14824.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14840.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
媒體大概就講到PR2.5可是其實我們看到是有重金屬污染的風險又看到這些固體廢棄物跟微粒的這些可能會影響到我們的土壤跟水源那這些確實它可以致癌的這些風險其實也是要告知當地或者是附近的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14841.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14859.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那你要讓民眾知道你們裁法的結果因為他只有寫說可能會有十萬到五百萬的這樣的一個罰款可是後續完全沒有聲音也沒有看到環境部這邊有什麼相關的一些回應或者是說你們對這件事情的一個有的處理態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14862.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14888.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
因為這個是屬於地方的一個案例的事情所以這個是通常是地方的環保局跟消防局在做處理它還不夠大但是其實我們是一直在關注這個事情火災的時候它的空污對附近的影響那的確那個因為佔離可能它的比較遠所以它的PM2.5相對的數值比較低看起來沒有影響但是這個問題我們會再來追蹤一下說後續如何去有沒有相關的一個調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14889.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14906.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
還是要把所謂的戰車廠說太陽能板的這些全國應該也要盤點一下如果以後再發生的話是不是大家會覺得說其實環境部其實對這些戰車廠沒有所謂的SOPOK好我們會再跟主管單位能源署再來做討論好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝我們的盧憲裕委員重新宣告待會陳盈委員詢答完畢後休息30分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14918.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14947.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
用餐接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席 今天排了這麼豐富的議題讓大家各位委員都可以好好的來救救我們的所有政府官員那針對今天的議題有幾個議題需要跟我們相關的主管機關來做一些對談包括這個有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14948.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14975.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
藥品藥材的價格波動的部分那另外就是塑膠的去化部分那我是不是先請我們的這個衛福部的食藥署江署長跟中藥署的任副署長剛剛很多委員也都有提了相關的議題市長好副市長好就是藥品的醫材塑化原料供應短缺造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14976.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14992.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
大家都很擔心那我相信剛剛很多委員都有請教過兩位署長跟副署長其實我們很了解這個最重要的部分就是要確保供應跟穩定價格這兩大重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14993.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15008.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
之前市部長也針對於這個議題也希望透過目前所編列的特別預算就是國安任性特別條例裡面有包含了200億元的健保基金安全的這些準備金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15008.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15035.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那請教一下 依照這個特別條例裡面在相關藥品或者是醫療器材有關本次的原料物波動至這些製劑成本增加的情形之下才能夠會動用到這200億的特別基金的準備那請問一下目前健保署跟這個食藥署能不能進一步說明幾副調整跟特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15036.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15058.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
在挹注健保的具體模式就是到時候應該怎麼樣來通知這一筆的準備金那目前有沒有相關受影響的業者開始在申請那申請的這些概況還有相關流程是否通暢是否流暢是不是先請署長然後再請副署長好 謝謝委員委員特別提到這一次中東戰事 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15061.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15090.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
之下影響整個的原物料的影響那我們在藥品醫材部分通報剛才提到陸陸續續有8家的藥廠藥品商加上19家的醫材相關的產業通報了許多的品項那對於成本的增加呢我們其實總共接到72家業者包括50家藥品跟22家醫材目前的成本的增加我們預估起來接近是15億左右的 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15090.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15113.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
的一個金額上面的調整需要能夠去討論那這個部分我們其實跟健保署這邊其實雙向是能夠通暢來進行我們彼此的調價的那目前已經有特定的家我就不特別講哪一家有提出了所謂希望能夠調價的特定的那也有一個醫材的部分也提出特定的醫材的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15113.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15136.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
那是特定一個疾病需要的一些管路那因為成本上面非常這樣直接的成本所以他們提出的相關的成本分析呢相對就是比較清楚更為完整在健保署這邊能夠共同來去擬定那因為我們不曉得戰事到底會延續多長的一個時間所以我們針對整個的產業以及他所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15137.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15162.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
藥品跟醫材的佔比我們藥品的包材我們算起來大概是8%它的成本那醫材的部分有些甚至可以達到四分之一二分之二十五%所以我們最整體的調降調整的一些預估成本的增加大約是在17億到33億左右的範圍跟空間所以目前針對整個成本的需求我們大概是按照這樣來做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15164.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15191.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那後續的調整的部分呢我們也有不同的做法跟想法除了從健保以外我們也希望能夠假如從前面那一端的原料的部分能夠給予支持的部分那這部分呢也是持續在跟COP會我們有一些溝通在進行當中以上是好 謝謝那請問副署長就是針對之前石部長所認定的這些標準來看的話那這200億的健保基金的安全準備金將來是否會影響到 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15193.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15208.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
包括其他種的這些帶來的影響是 謝委員雖然根據那個全民健康保險藥局付法那34小、35小在藥品的部分那其實常常是可以根據它的成本分析來調整它的支付項 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15208.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15236.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那至於在課材的部分在五十三十二條也有規範是可以依成本分析來做調整的事調整它的事務下那目前跟健保署反映的現在有三個項目第一個主要是藥品的部分是一個乳膏劑的部分那個類固醇方面的藥膏第二個是兩項課材的部分一個長安醫材幾歲的飲流管的那個課材的部分那目前都有替代產品那剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15237.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15262.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那個委員問到那200億基金的部分那目前的話如果評估這個不敷成本可能藥品跟客服器的話目前跟食藥署在推估大概影響的部分大概會在7.5億左右那目前的話在藥品大概5.16那客服器的話有可能會影響到2.32所以在200億基金的部分實際上是有辦法來適應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15264.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15284.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
謝謝 聽起來大家應該可以很安心那再請一下 請教一下署長就是有關基層藥局 其實他們也受到衝擊那剛剛所提到都是針對200億的資金是用生產製造端的廠商的補助或者是幫忙那對於基層藥局他們所反映的事情目前有沒有相關的機制可以來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15286.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15310.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
就這個部分因為基層藥局我們接到的一些訊息是特別是他們所謂的夾鏈的藥袋的部分提供的藥袋的部分因為他們是在交付處方給予我們的所以整個的經費的部分是在如果是整個健保的話就是另外健保的部分那藥袋的部分因為每一顆我們知道的訊息大概是0.2塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15312.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15331.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
對0.2塊的部分我們在想說如何去反映這個部分那這部分其實因為計算起來錢不是很多但是每個藥局裡面呢還是會有一些影響我們持續在研議當中對目前還沒有直接就是如今補刀藥局區目前還沒有特別的好這部分再麻煩署長繼續來關注謝謝那就請署長副長回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15337.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15355.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
再過來要麻煩針對這個農業廢棄物的部分來請教我們農糧署陳主任秘書跟資源永續利用師的杜科長那麻煩我們的洪宏義那個組長還有杜科長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15362.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15384.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
其實首先要很感謝也很恭喜農業部還有環境部中央跟地方政府共同在全民的努力之下在3月6日我們獲得世界動物衛生組織核可恢復為非洲豬瘟自我生命飛躍區這真的是得來不易真的很感謝所有大家共同的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15384.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15397.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那針對於今天農業部書面報告針對肥料穩定供應的情形其實大家也都非常的努力不管是透過台肥部分吸收漲幅還有適時的補助這個國內肥料業者讓所有的這個影響能夠影響到最低 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15401.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15413.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
不過今天想要跟兩位討論來有關於農業廢棄物的部分怎麼樣讓這個塑膠類別的去化模式可以更穩定的來做進步那我們看到的資料就是在這張113年的統計表裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15418.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15421.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
將近500萬噸的這個農業廢棄物裡面有2%是屬於非生物性的這個部分那佔了將近12800公噸那請問目前這些廢棄物裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15434.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15450.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所看到主要的回收模式是屬於這個資源回收那這個資源回收在相關的做法裡面最重要的方式到底是什麼樣的方式讓這個資源回收可以再利用請問一下農業部的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15452.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15479.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
好 謝謝委員的指導那針對那個農業塑膠的一個部分那它是屬於一半的一個廢棄物那我們農業部跟環境部這邊是合作的關係那因為塑膠布或是那個農抹因為它可能在耕作的時候可能它會附著一些沙土所以說它如果沒有適當的一個清洗的話那可能在金融單位它 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15480.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15506.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
會不喜歡去做回收所以我們農業部這邊是有有輔導那個循環場域先做清洗之後再由再利用單位來回收再利用是的確因為我們看到資料裡面這12000噸幾乎希望都能夠再利用再回收可是就好像您所提到的那如何能夠讓這個回收可以做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15506.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15529.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我們也看到目前的困境這就是我們在2025年12月份透過我們所知的書面報告裡面看到的那今天的書面報告有提到目前的這些傳統溶液塑膠再利用的情形就如你所提到沙土的雜質啦這個產源分散這個勤勉成本太高等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15530.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15555.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
尤其是在這個儲存空間不足的情形下導致我們目前看到的很不希望看到的這種對農土污染造成的影響這個是我們持續還希望在可以努力的部分那剛剛提到推動使用這個可分解的農業資產裡面其實的確我們看到有相關的進步的情形就是農糧署這邊輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15557.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15580.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
嘉義縣的東石合作廠農場他們推出相關的一些因應的做法讓這個清洗的部分可以進化能夠讓整體的這個資材回收還有這個部分都可以做得更好那也除了相關的作業支援讓未來的這個處理可以更為優化剛剛我們提到是一萬兩千噸可是這個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15584.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15611.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
東石的合作廠他們能夠去化每年才2000噸所以可以理解還是有很大量的這個資源回收是沒有做好的那請問未來有沒有計畫針對這個類似的這種合作農場的設置可以繼續擴大因為這個部分是屬於地區性的使用那將來是不是在各個相關的農業線都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15613.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15638.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
擴增類似的這個處理模式跟委員報告那我們在去年也有埔島那個南投縣埔里這邊也是有一個針對農業塑膠的一個清洗場域目前還在設置中那後續如果說其他縣市如果相關的一個做設廠要來協助做這個塑膠農畝的清洗的工作的話我們會繼續來做協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15640.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15665.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
因為這個看起來是蠻需要的請問一下本部長,針對這個部分環境部有沒有跟農業部有更多的合作的方案?第一個是說我們有發現有一些農模是用Bio的可以分解的方式,一種是分解第二個是他們可以回收這個部分我們也會想辦法,我們有跨部會談過這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15667.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15684.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那我未來呢因為在減塑的這個趨勢之下我們會想辦法來跟他們加速這整個整個過程的進行因為他們現在是有一些點在設置可是整個循環體系如何收集的完整這個可能還需要一些經濟的誘因才可以完成我們會來想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15685.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15712.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
是謝謝因為我來自農村所以對這個農業農土的污染真的非常非常的關注希望兩個部會持續來努力那最後一個簡單的部分就是謝謝環境部這邊針對這個蔬果標籤貼紙去樹的話我們去年有提出了相關的質詢那謝謝包括部長很關心這個議題那也在12月去年12月1號召集了相關的部會針對這個蔬果標籤去 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15714.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15738.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
的貼紙去做的話有做一些努力相關的部會包括食藥署農業部還有環境部本身那也都相關的因應那最後想要請教一下就是針對這個議題如何持續推動那不知道部長能不能夠如果有相關的這個後面持續的這個延伸報告的話那可以提供給我們來做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15738.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15757.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
是可以沒問題這個在進行當中是那之前有跟委員有有跟您這邊報告過那後續的我們會再來持續進行好那就可以一個月或兩個月可以給我們應該一個月一個月好那就謝謝副長謝謝大家謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請陳盈委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15773.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15801.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請彭部長有請彭部長周委員好部長好 我們今天討論的主題是塑膠原物料的穩定供給那以及如何減少塑膠的使用在2018年的時候呢你們有訂定了這個訂定了這個塑膠禁現用為主的政策那在歷經七年之後看起來是沒有達標嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15801.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15828.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
然而呢 部長就是說在去年年底的時候又宣示減塑的這個政策將從淨限用走向總量管理那以2024年為基準年目標是在2030年一次性的這個石化塑膠產品減量5%那在2035年的時候呢減量10%那我想要請教部長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15829.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15845.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
在之前的這個政策失敗之後那你們現在又轉個彎好像改變了政策那主要的原因是什麼因為我其實那時候我上任之後我同仁會帶我去菜市場說要檢索那我也去蹲點我發現那個我們去檢索那天 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15849.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15866.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
大家比較願意因為有誘因我們不去了之後又回到都是用塑膠袋的一個情況所以我們很努力的去了解這個原因有沒有出現是一個誘因就是沒有誘因然後塑膠袋已經變成是零售攤翻攤商夜市市場裡面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15867.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15883.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
依賴的一個必需品所以我們基本上想要改就是其實那個四項裡面當時2018訂的時候他並沒有透過很大量的民眾的需求我覺得民眾沒有教育的很成功但是我覺得七年後民眾已經有一個意識了所以我們希望加大所以我多了兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15884.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15914.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
所以那裡面有的成功有的沒有辦法做得到就是最後一里路就是攤商所以我們目前我們現在是改變一個方式我們用循環經濟的方式例如說給他誘因例如說我就拿一個建國花式來做測試那目前我建國花式因為有10%的人願意用環保循環帶然後我們也導入一些廠商願意給誘因所以我們會認為是說經過這個測試我們蹲點實際上去操作之後我們相信有機會可以成功所以改變他的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15914.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15929.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
所以聽起來就是其實民眾的習慣要改變也不是很容易的事情很不容易所以除非你替代性的這個東西有替代品的便利性很足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15930.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15956.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
才比較容易成功嘛對好那剛剛聽這個部長說的就是說大概大概都是說民眾使用的這個部分那我們再來看那以總量管理作為目標希望一次性的這個石化塑膠產品減量5%那這邊的總量請教部長你的意思是以這個重量為單位還是以件數還是怎麼樣為單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15957.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15972.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我們那個六大類然後六大類它的原先它的原物料的產出的這個數值是多少那個六大類以這個目標為下來那這個完全是對標歐盟的標準歐盟歐盟的標準來做定義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15973.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16001.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
这样听起来还是有点很模糊就是说那你们要怎么知道说到底有没有达标基本上我们还是有限定一些场域它必须该限的还是有限例如说我们那个使用者付费必须要付费来取得那个我们还扩大场域因为原先就有14类的现在还会多加很多的场域进去然后另外一个是这个5或是10其实有一定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16001.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16030.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
计算的一个标准所以我们会用那个标准欧盟一样的标准来定义因为其实全世界对于零售市场最后一底路就是零售市场摊商等等那个全世界因为我们东亚洲的这种大家喜欢吃这种摊贩的东西或是市场的东西比较不会去卖场卖场的这个量就会显著的减少所以目前来看的话我是觉得最后一底路是困难的但是我们还是想要来试看看但是改变另外一种方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16030.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16039.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
副部長你有沒有一個比如說舉個實際案例的套一些數據去做一個試算做範例 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16040.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16065.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我舉例例如說建國花市建國花市他大概一天三萬人去做使用然後一般建國花市大概就會提兩到三個大的塑膠袋也就是一天就會有大概如果用三個來看的話就九萬個塑膠袋九萬個塑膠袋那我們後來呢努力到說一天大概可以少掉10%不用用我們循環袋來產生那這個就是一個很顯著的效果好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16071.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16097.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我想再請教那你們所以這個回收的這個塑膠是不是也包含在裡面回收的我們現在基本上我們是二手袋啦基本上不希望他再用一次性的塑膠袋用二手袋或是環保袋來做取代或是紙袋各位報告那回收我們是有另外一個那個標準就使用多少的那個再生料的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16098.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16127.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
因為聽起來好像也不是太容易計算的感覺因為我們用總量算沒有辦法算得很精準的感覺像我們台灣一個平均一個人一年是用384到427個那那個也是從一年有110個除以2300多萬人去除出來的所以基本上我們很難去算出不過我們循環署今年會有一個計畫是專門來評估如何去計算的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16128.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16151.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
好我想在任何一個政策都要有一個可以檢定的方法跟目標那這裡的一致性的石化塑膠產品聽這麼久部長講這麼多聽起來好像都是針對民眾生活所使用的這個產品那在就是說我們要求的對象是民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16152.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16170.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
但是好像比較看不到就是說針對營業服務的商家去要求這個是本席看起來是覺得比較奇怪的部分那在這邊我想舉一個例子就是說例如說米酒瓶通常大概就是0.6公升那個玻璃瓶 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16172.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16198.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那他們的回收價格如果交由一般的資源回收車或者是拾荒者通常是按這個玻璃重量來計算那價值呢就是每公斤1.5元那如果是持這個空瓶到這個台酒公司的門市美聯社或者合作的這個雜貨店每支空瓶呢大概可以拿回這個2元的這個押品費 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16199.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16228.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以我常常看到就是说卖姜母鸭啊还有这个烧酒机的餐厅呢一次就是一整箱作为单位去回收嘛那再看看我们营业用的这个酱油啊辣椒酱这些食品调味料都是用那种很大桶的那种塑胶桶去包装那如果可以比照这个米酒瓶回收再利用是不是它的效益会更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16229.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16230.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
因為一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16232.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16259.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
5公升的這個空塑膠桶他可以變成多次使用那當然省下來的重量可能就比這個減少幾百個塑膠袋或吸管還要多部長是不是認同本席這樣的建議跟說法那跟委員報告那這部分如果是從產業出來這個比較大的那通常他都有市場誘因所以主要他是藉由那個塑膠的回收市場這邊再來回收會再利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16260.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16283.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那因為環境部目前管制的對象雖然就是說從2018年的這個塑膠袋吸管免洗餐具飲料杯等四大項四項擴大納入這個零售包裝跟這個網購包裝六的這樣子六項那本席是非常的支持可是還可以再多思考就是說到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16283.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16309.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
有哪一些的這個產品包裝可以從使用一次變成多次的使用特別是那些體積很大重量很大的這些塑膠包裝啊那可以優先思考跟規劃而且一定要考慮突破其他的法規規定例如說醬油桶在食安法裡面我們食藥署署長在這裡就是他的規定就不能重複使用嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16310.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16330.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
也你們也可以就是說思考跟衛福部討論找出可以解決的方法部長是不是可以同樣同意這個點子是蠻好的我們會來討論協商一下看什麼樣的可以再重複的在在利用我們就帶回去跟部長一起去演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16332.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16359.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
好 謝謝 那那個署長你可以請回座 謝謝那上次在這個國際氣候變遷大會原住民的這個文化與智慧如何運用在減碳的議題上氣候變遷署好像有應該是有積極在規劃邀請國外的原住民團體來參與那因為這個塑膠呢它是屬於這個石化產品那原料呢它是來自於這個石油跟天然氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16361.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16381.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
牽涉的呢不僅是廢棄物的問題那它還有這個氣候升溫控制的密切相關的問題那部長你有沒有思考過就是說我們原住民其實有很多利用天然的植物比如說竹子啊或者是藤類我們會去做用竹子 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16382.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16407.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
竹筒去製作酒杯那還有就是說以及去編織利用一些藤類竹類的也有就是說去編織各式的這個籃子那包括還有像托特包啊背包啊這些那其實它非常的實用美觀然後很時尚也非常的耐用 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16409.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16425.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
所以用現有的這個環境的原物料使用在這個生活在生活上來取代這些塑膠的這些製品那建議環境部的官員呢你們有空的時候到園鄉可以去走走看看去看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16428.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16450.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
這些產品那推廣可以取代一次性的這個塑膠產品給社會大眾那我想就是說除了推廣在地文化的這些意涵之外呢也是有幫助於這個減少排碳減少塑膠產品的這個消耗那其實或許搞不好這樣子的發想我們來一次像從這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16452.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16474.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
部落裡去尋找這些可以替代一次性使用的這些作品那大家可以環境部可以辦一次合作辦一次展示那部長也可以走秀做一下示範我想那是蠻不錯的我還蠻想看您背那個部落編織的那個托特包啊或者竹籃 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16475.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16505.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
應該放公文這樣應該蠻好的可以委員這個點子蠻好的因為像今年的COVAX30在巴西去年去年底那他其實就是用大量的原住民把原住民的所有的物品擺在會場裡面讓大家可以去購買可以做使用然後提倡這些事情那我認為這個如何把原住民的對氣候變件的智慧還有他不會製造新的塑膠用這種天然的植物來做我們是非常鼓勵所以委員我們會請熊丸鼠跟氣候鼠 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16505.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16531.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
今天給你們一些發想那最後就是說我想在這邊還是要誇一下部長因為您是非常具有國際觀的一位部長那全球的這個塑膠公約在2025年的釜山談判第五次那你們也都有派人去也都有同步在關注這些這個議題那同時部長也對外表示說塑膠公約的目標是禁用有問題的塑膠那 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16533.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16557.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我國的這個塑膠措施會朝向避免不必要的這個消費和這個促進再使用那改善塑膠產品可回收性的去推動同時也會加強可再生材料替代原生塑膠那今天本期的質詢呢主要是提醒環境部的官員你們一定要跟這個經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16559.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16583.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
衛福部還有文化部及園民會還有其他相關部會去盤點相關的法規的限制並且尋求合作善用原住民的這個文化與經驗那減少塑膠產生造成的這個環境垃圾跟環境破壞那這個部分也謝謝部長就是同意有後續有考慮然後有精進的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16584.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16610.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
可以 這個我們會在委員的指示其實這個塑膠工業是未來很重要的一個重點尤其是說雖然說它有一點緩衝期那可能也不見得會限制全世界到一個法規但是以一個地球村的份子減塑還是我們大家的目標那我們會關切這個塑膠工業它的最新的進展適時的把趕快讓產業界知道因為這個衝擊會蠻大的我們要早一點做準備OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16613.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16617.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
謝謝陳雲委員的發言 接下來我們休息用餐30分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16644.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16644.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16674.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16674.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16695.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16699.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
大大你從這裡 坐這裡就好大大你坐這裡就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16724.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16725.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
隔壁吃好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16754.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16755.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16780.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16808.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
這邊 這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16810.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16810.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16832.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16840.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
雞籠也是主動的現在就要在路上打工了現在就要在路上打工了現在就要在路上打工了所以我就比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16853.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16856.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
而且我們那時候去協調新聞據說局長答應 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16870.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16878.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那時候局長有繼續講嗎那時候局長有繼續講嗎那時候局長有繼續講嗎那時候局長有繼續講嗎那時候局長有繼續講嗎那時候局長有繼續講嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16902.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16902.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16914.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16940.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16941.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16941.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
鞭筍 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16965.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16993.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
謝謝謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16993.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17005.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
我原本想點火腿,但才找到湯圓我沒有吃過湯圓過兩天已經有湯圓了那是小碗嗎?那是小碗嗎?那是小碗?那是小碗嗎?那是小碗嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17011.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17013.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
我覺得他進去的時候很好笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17031.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17031.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
鴨子 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17061.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17062.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這張圖畫也蠻好看的這張圖畫也蠻好看的這張圖畫也蠻好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17089.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17099.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
這個東部樓下,一二二位它是一個新的光景,長大一點的如果我們因為它也是一袋一套的它就一袋一袋的一袋一袋的一袋的一袋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17114.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17114.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17138.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17140.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
水,沒有那個嗎?那是流水嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17161.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17162.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17194.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17205.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
市長過年8月2號好怪喔我跟妳講這個帳篷很大很大 裡面跟房間都有 而且它是高級的我跟妳講這個帳篷很大 很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17220.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17222.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
你現在不亂說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17241.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17248.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
我當然是要一萬塊 一定要從頭自己拿到頭 三分是要自己拿可是很累 看起來很累 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17271.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17274.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
你喝喝喝喝喝喝喝喝喝喝喝喝 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17295.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17295.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17319.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17320.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17339.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17339.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
這裏有幾塊?這裏有幾塊?這裏有幾塊? |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17360.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17362.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
看來是用一百味精製的 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17374.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17403.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
我突然去找,我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在廣播而已,所以我突然去找,他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17407.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17408.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
谢谢谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17442.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17442.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
我來試試看 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17468.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17471.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
我剛才是要去等他們一天我跟他們講囉我跟他們講囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17494.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17495.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17524.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17524.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17554.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17555.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
鸡蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17595.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17602.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
所以我在那裡叫他 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17610.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17614.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
鲍鱼鱼 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17637.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17646.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17666.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17668.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
我沒有,我沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17691.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17692.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
這次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17719.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17720.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17749.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17766.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
太臭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17782.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17782.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
鸡腿 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17794.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17794.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
明天我們... |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17815.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17816.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17852.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17857.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
對,因為立法院休息30分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17876.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17884.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
我們是健保署,我們在公園、在市、在食藥局、食藥服務局、在健保署、在健安局、在健健安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17892.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17893.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17914.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17917.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
還有一些智慧的話就有了還有一些藍圈、藍圈、藍圈、藍圈、藍圈、藍圈、藍圈、藍圈 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17941.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17943.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
我看到了,我看到了,我看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17962.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17963.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17979.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17987.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
這個好好吃喔然後還有一許自然的感覺可以喝一口喝一口喝一口喝一口喝一口喝 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18006.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18006.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
來 請看 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18023.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18026.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
中午怎麼沒休息?有啊,我去吃飯了,你吃什麼?我開心吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18050.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18050.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18075.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18075.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18207.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18208.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
謝謝觀看,下次見 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18217.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18218.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
現在還在實施實施我們這邊還好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18246.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18248.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18266.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18268.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
再来看一看,银杆银杆银杆银杆 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18298.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18299.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
鮮奶油 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18314.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18315.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
鸡蛋糕 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18336.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18340.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
帶程,在這裡面,帶程對,因為那個...對,因為那個...對,因為那個...對,因為那個...對,因為那個...對,因為那個...對,因為那個...對,因為那個... |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18361.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18383.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18388.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18388.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
謝謝觀看 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18434.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18436.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
鸡蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18459.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18463.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
大学大学大学大学大学大学 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18486.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18514.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
請問請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18519.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18519.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
市長你會不會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18554.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18573.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
現在繼續開會葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在接著我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在接著我們請鄭正前委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18574.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18587.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
那鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在 接著我們請徐欣盈委員那徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在接著我們請楊耀委員你要不要跟他交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18616.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18636.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
搞不好彭部長來傷心了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18646.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18648.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
接著請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝眼睛有問題的主席我們請彭部長彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18665.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18683.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
郭文貴議員好部長剛剛針對主席的那席話你有什麼意見嗎沒有意見就代表說我不能代表你就對了可以可以我當然是不能代表你不過他是用以貌取人的方式在形容剛剛那種處境沒事啦請文部長針對這個美醫的情勢緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18687.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18700.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
然後連帶的造成能源供應的不穩定那我們也為了要提升這個天然氣的調度然後彈性並確保供電的穩定我想各國都均有在研擬短期的調整發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18715.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18725.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
然後也你這個短期的這個調整發電的這個這個結構措施因應了所以台電目前規劃短期要去調度麥寮電廠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18727.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18753.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
第一號跟第三號的機組要來因應這個美伊戰爭的人員危機對不對這個部長都掌握嗎我們是知道這個訊息知道這個訊息那部長對這個事情看法怎樣基本上他不是主力的就是說只是拿來調度我所知道的就是調度那我們也觀察到他是不是合規那目前因為他的使用期限還沒有到期所以是合規的那我們會特別注意他的空污的減量因為他是算是超 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18756.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18767.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
操作需求更是沒有問題,但是它也是超臨界的所以它相對的空汙沒有像傳統亞臨界這麼高但是我們會密切注意會不會對中南部的空汙造成影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18768.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18794.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
所以部長的態度基本上是不反對還是支持基本上當然我們是希望燃煤能夠越用越少但是因為現在他們台電是在做準備因應萬一因為燃煤的這個儲存時間比較久所以應付這個突然的危機我認為他是用從國家能源韌性的角度來做處理那我們尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18795.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18814.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
這個應該沒有到任性的這個範疇裡面吧我覺得部長有點講過了他是這三台那邊機組是在去年年底前要全部除役所以一二三嘛對不對一二三嘛他已經拆了第二號機組了嘛對不對再講他一三都應該要一併拆除嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18815.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18827.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
合約還沒有到合約還沒到我們請台電說明一下好請說明報告委員那他現在那個蔡會現在2號機是因為他要蓋那個新的燃氣機組對至於1號機跟3號機目前是停機 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18829.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18854.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
是停機 對但是他們這1號3號的機組基本上是去年年底要除役嘛它不是除役操作許可是到2027年底啦應該這樣講它那個包括1號跟3號它都還在電業執照的有效期限裡面它只是跟台電的合約是到期了合約是到期了嗎對是25年的合約到期但是它的電業執照還是有那個還是在那個有效期限裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
18855.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
18876.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
他電業執照是到118年,我記得好像是年終的時候等於到2029年,118年嘛對不對對,電業執照但是實際上現在這三,二號基礎拆除我們就不再談論啦就E3來講,現在也都完全沒有在燃煤也沒有發電也都沒有在發電嘛,也沒有在燃煤嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
18877.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
18882.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那我們現在要把它來當成義烏美麗戰爭的這個短期的一個發電的提供的一個會這個機組這樣的再重啟重啟這個南美的這樣的一個運營短期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
18893.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
18909.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
人員上的一個支持嘛是不是這樣我最後要請教部長你怎麼看到這個事情包委員因為我有觀察到這個事情因為像那個韓國韓國是氣候能源環境部把合併成一個大部那他們是主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
18910.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
18937.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
調整這個燃煤的一個措施不過韓國要推動把這個燃煤重新再準備好要在那個地方的時候他也有一個但書2040年要全面的把60座燃煤機組所有的都要停役掉所以目前我們在觀察因為很多的國家在準備中東的情勢會不會原物料的短缺所以我們觀察到很多的國家都有這樣的類似的措施但是我們對於這件事情因為目前我們是看到知道台電準備要這樣做應付這樣的這個挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
18941.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
18945.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
我知道因為大家要因應美日戰爭的這種情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
18946.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18966.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
我看到必須要去做這樣的一個處理的方向情況之下我有另外一個思維模式,就請部長跟台電做一個思考你們怎麼會整個在盤整過程裡面來處理一個已經處理,雖然他的操作許可還在時間內的一個基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18970.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18987.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
我必須要站在營運人的角度去看待這個事情站在國家整理來講或許有你們的立場跟你們的專業上的評估但是站於營運人的立場來講我是沒辦法接受這樣的事情第一個你知道過去全國還在用燃燒石油膠當成燃料的供應的就是賣了這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18992.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19017.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
你說他燃燒多久嗎?連印度政府都已經把石油膠禁止了台灣在印度政府禁止完之後隔幾年才禁止燃燒隔幾年才把它當成是一個台灣工業人員的一個原料的一個換種裡面去處理部長知道嗎?財經知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19020.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19049.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
部長知道就請部長回答就是有晚了人家幾年啦可能是當時的這個需求那但是我是覺得如果有國際上一個先進的措施我們就應該要提早的去解決這個環境的問題對那個時候行政院還有當時的環保署的前署長都有再三的而且在委員會而且在院會都有說一定會一定會馬上進石油礁石油礁的這個燃燒結果從頭到尾就是沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19050.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19077.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
是後來我們在這個委員會在慧清華提出修正的時候直接把石油膠上個字把它把它拿掉拿掉之後還必須要還必須要經過院會的刪讀還要經過總統府總統府的公告之後才開始試吃欸你看又多久時間那個時候那個時候公佈人講了之後結果也沒有照這樣走啦而且整個修法過程裡面坦白講是我提案修法的但那個石油膠到現在還在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19079.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19097.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
那你們為什麼在整個盤整的過程裡面還會思考到只因為他因為他的超過許可證期限是到2027只因為他還有第一號機組跟第二號機組就是你講的應該是Lessons嘛對不對還沒有到期嘛所以你沒有思考到那個地方去你這個會究其齁 究其當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19102.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19129.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
政府的決策然後一個錯誤的情況之下甚至於應該要立即去改變改善然後又延宕了這麼久我不曉得用什麼用什麼樣的話語來形容這樣的一個情境是對你們整個在調度在整個因應這個美伊戰爭過程能源的一個處理的方式上我覺得你會因為這個地方去影響到你們全部的佈局喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19130.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19134.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
因為我知道他們是要做短期的調度因為有些燃煤機組是有720小時的備用機組他們這個用法可能是有點類似是不是請總工程師 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19146.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19174.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
跟委員報告一下就是有關那個麥寮電廠這個部分因為我們今天基本上會去考慮這個麥寮電廠一個短期調度因應最主要是因為他是目前還具備是一個合法運轉而且他整個操作許可證都還是在他的一個效期裡面那其他的話例如像有一些有些燃煤機組他其實都是已經是警備機組他必須遵循相關的一些環保法規而且他有他的一個運轉時數的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19175.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19190.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以我們這個最主要是為了要增加這整個天然氣的一個調度的一個一個彈性那也是作為一個因應的做法那整個短期調度的因應也是總管理師嘛對不對是是好我們請教一下短期調度要短期什麼時候到什麼時候叫短期 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19191.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19219.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
我們目前規劃是從五月開始調度那大概三個月的期間五六七嘛對不對對所以是你們的部長已經去跟川普講好了還是你們的董事長去跟川普講好了五六七之後就不需要再調度了如果沒有講好就繼續開打那是五六七然後再來是八九十還是怎樣你的短期調度就是三個月時間到了後面就沒有了你們就去盤整到其他地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19222.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19240.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
所以你現在是頭過心就要過所以我現在要說我還是要五六七可以啊你可以跟我講這樣啊那你要跟我講寫句跟川普講好了每一的戰爭就是五六七到七月之後後面沒有了所以叫做斷期還是你現在跟我說絕對到五六七沒有八九十你敢跟我保證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19244.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19270.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
跟委員報告我們現在在調度這個麥寮那個這個燃煤機組我們是要維持在我們今年的用煤量不會超過去年的一個水準底下不是你要回答我的問題你的用煤量怎麼樣那是另外一件事情你們總要管制市裡面的專業去做評估你對麥寮發電廠你就是要短期你的短期叫做五六七會不會超過每一開打如果五六七不結束八九十你要不要再調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19272.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19274.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
那如果你要再調度,你就不叫做短期調度啊你現在在委員會講的話都會成為未來的成長證供啊所以大家把話講清楚啊何謂短期調度在我論資的短期調度裡面我的評估裡面是一個月啊哪來的三個月那你們可以把上個月當成叫做短期調度但是你還有沒有後續嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19300.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19328.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
那你現在沒辦法在委員會把握的情況之下那現在我想委員對你提出這樣的一個推選基本上就是有擔憂嘛那你沒辦法在委員會對我答覆解除我這樣擔憂我就說要反對到底啊我不容許我的故鄉在受藍莓產生的污染的影響的情況之下重蹈覆轍我就不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19330.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19340.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
我絕對不接受我絕對不接受不然你們去修非清華看哪個地方越來越在重啟燃燒石油膠啊你們去做短期的因應啊567請給我答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19356.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19370.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
報告委員 這個部分我們後續還是會持續關注相關一個能源的一個變化你還是沒有答過我的問題 對不起 總管理師我沒有要圍安你但是你跟我講短期是對委員會講的 也對我講的那我請教你的567 後面還有沒有8910 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19375.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19397.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
剛剛有跟委員報告就是目前我們是先就是初步是規劃這三個月啦那或許我們當然還是會持續去關注這個國際的一個能源的一個變化那我們還是會會去檢討我們的相關一個調度的策略我還是聽不出來你對我的隨選的題目的範疇裡面的回應就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19399.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19416.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我用另外一個角度來講就是你今天沒辦法答覆我所謂的短期調度是你們自己短暫的思維說我的短期調度叫5、6、7所以如果未來我多增加1個月、2個月其實也在你們短期調度的範疇裡面是不是這樣?如果是這樣你先答覆我這樣就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19420.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19445.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
報告委員因為這個部分真的很難很難在這邊就完全就是做一個很明確的一個答覆因為這畢竟是一個相關能源的政策好吧你沒有辦法答覆我那你就請回去見請你們的高層還有相關的這個可以決定這事情的人跟他們清楚的表達我們所謂台電要應驗這個能源短期的供應基本上就不要思考在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19446.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19450.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
因為這個地方我們很難跟人家用短期三個月去做一個承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19453.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19471.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
是不是要改其他的地方去做思考能不能把這樣的一個問題帶回去好的 我會把這個問題帶回去我們以後持續盤點可用的一個資源好 謝謝來 請管理師回去喔 謝謝老闆娘 抱歉啦 好不好我應該說這個過程我知道 我比以前修羊腰圍都內陷中了我又換了 很清楚的那時候要修這個石油礁那是沒有很久的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19477.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19481.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
真的是沒有很久的,我是覺得因為我們的地方以前就是有全國家全國全國全國全國全國全國全國全國全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19487.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
19505.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
那已經對這件事、對這件事已經很難交代,好不容易我們建基石油廠會燒,也好不容易這三座的美資族也已經準備落石要踢掉了,想到台電要運營這個領域的資源的時候,就想到這裡來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
19511.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
19539.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
像你這裡有二號、三號,二號已經停了,二號、三號還沒停,好,從這裡來從這裡來你說是低級的,你的低級到底是低級的所以我剛才說了,你也給我承諾說,你不用去跟川普說了欸欸欸,你每一戰爭打到5、6、7而已同歸於你,同歸於你再提早你不要把我扯到一半了喔不然你對我的面子說,萬一烏蘭奧霍,我把他送下去,叫做5、6、7短期喔我如果扯過就對了,我有吃辣了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
19540.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
19544.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
你怎麼會去處理這個啊?不然你不要這樣說,你這個很低級的啊!對啊,騎在空氣污染的角度,你是全國統管的這個空氣維護的一種機關的首長!我們就是面對啊!沒有,台電你這個介入是有問題啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19559.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19587.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
你這個假的如果有問題就對了,我站在空氣有量,風濕的角度,我也沒辦法跟你們同意,我也沒辦法替你賠錢,是不是應該用我們來處理?我這個部分我們會再來了解,我們最近其實因為因應這個戰爭,那我們也知道這個能源的穩定,他們有一些想法出來,那我們其實也在做一些相關的模擬預估,大概對空品衝擊會多少,那我們完成之後再跟委員再做一個報告, |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19588.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19604.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
因為這件事情我是希望說能夠用的越少越好啦例如說他是不是可以做到像這個高雄的用一個緊急備用電力的這個設施來處理那有一個720小時的限制那因為這是他們提出來的那我們我們後續的也會來把關也會來監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19606.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19632.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
反正我的立場很清楚啦我也把問題點出來嘛對不對如果這些都沒有辦法讓我們去去能夠釋懷兼理解的情況之下這種這種這種硬硬的緊急的這種這種策略這種政策基本上就就就不要不要從這個地方從這個地方去做思考去做執行了是是好沒問題最後包采的問題啦最後包采的問題我還是要特別提醒那天有跟農業部也有跟經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
19634.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
19649.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
還有環境部最主要我們都有很多是資源回收在利用然後我們也從很多的營務料裡面還有很多的素材裡面在提升這個去成為這個包材的這個商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
19650.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
19676.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
那現在就是很多包材的流量在漲價嘛那應該我們不管是以前的環保署、現在環境部、經濟部、農業部等還有其他的單位都有那我一直沒有看到說我們政府現在站出來說你收價去但是我自然維修再利用的部分我們這個包材就對了坦白講就可以在這個時間點釋出來甚至可以去抑制這樣的一個塑膠包材的漲價我們的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
19680.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
19704.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
一直以來就叫未雨綢繆一直以來就是為環境這樣的一個永續來打拚沒有了我到現在沒有 農業部沒有經濟部沒有我現在只有期待環境部包委員我請我們署長來回應一下各位報告那我們在二次料的一個推廣部分那最近也把這個我們會把平台告訴大家因為平台已經有建議就是把那個可以提供二次料這個塑料廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
19706.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
19722.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
那給我們這些需求者有一個更方便的方式組長怎麼是最近才提供所以你還沒有提供嘛平台還沒有上嘛平台已經有只是說我們最近會發新聞稿告訴大家對啊你們最近才發新聞稿告訴大家是不太有把握 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
19725.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
19730.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
是不太有把握但這個事情不是現在才會發生3月25號我們就開記者會對不對隔天經濟委員會就拚拚給我應該在上個禮拜也是一樣針對這個相關的一些包材包含有醫藥的藥瓶藥罐大大大很多啦對對於小企業很大的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
19747.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
19768.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
這些醫療的藥品、製品基本上的包材都會有很大的這樣的一個狀況發生嘛,對不對?對農業來講,像那個變動茄,變動茄放那個玉米、玉米番茄等等,那個全部都通通都長了啊,對啊,然後連那個蜜,蜜的包裝袋啊,已經都去報紙50以上喔, |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
19772.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
19787.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
對 這不是現在發生的 不是今天發生的是一兩個禮拜節節上升啊你們怎麼會到現在才要發新聞稿跟委員報告因為這裡面有些業者我們去了解說他願不願意去公開這些資料啦所以有做了一個調查的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
19789.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
19812.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
因為有些業者他不願意去公開說他可以提供二次料的個別的資料我們政策在輔導我們政策在推的過程裡面也是這些業者會來配合嘛我們支持他們嘛哪有什麼理由現在需要他們說他們不願意配合去公開是什麼原因還是一樣要跟我們本來這裡的業者跟原來這裡的業者一起大家互相講話還是他們被牽制還是他們有交付持股 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
19819.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
19838.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
這些都是那個塑膠 就是回收塑膠然後產生塑膠再生料的一個塑膠廠那我們的確是問他們 他們是不想要去在平台公開他們提供每個項目的資料你有何在嘛 你讓大家知道一下這是你政府你輔導的 怎麼會是教育所要到他們的時候你號召他們 他竟然跟你講說有這樣的危然之處是什麼原因的危然之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
19848.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
19854.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
部分的原因是說他們是要自己使用那不想要去賣給別人這是其中一個原因他們要自己使用那這代表我們這個政策坦白講就是很小的這樣一個單位所以根本也沒有辦法來應付這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
19871.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
19885.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
所以他才跟你講這樣你才有辦法接受才沒有辦法去督促他們就是要上這個平台嘛你現在又可以上這個平台的理由是怎樣又找到另外一個你輔導的他可能量多一點點他願意來配合了 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
19886.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
19905.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
你這講話不是對不起這樣的這是因應的因應政策啊你的因應政策你跟台電的因應政策有點落差因為我們吼這個因為這是農業部的這個包材的這個部分啦是那我們過去我們其實環境部處理的是末端的那個手提的袋啦要減量啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
19905.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
19922.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
所以這個部分我們因為其實今天有很多人的意見是不是能夠針對一些重要的優先順序去做處理那這個我們會再跟農業部來特別再來協商如何去協助他們減量或是說能夠包採可以找得到或是替代的產品這個我們會來協助來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
19924.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
19934.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
部長我只是時間關係啦齁我講的環境部、農業部、經濟部其實都有在做這些事情對不對我是用幾個幾項的包採來講那環境部都有輔導的、獎勵的還是支持的這樣的一個廠家他到底是做出什麼樣的東西可以來應付這一次的包採漲價我們可以平穩這樣的一個價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
19951.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
19979.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
應該環境部這時間跳出來應該是很希望我成組講說最起碼我可以處理某幾個部分但是我剛剛聽署長講部長你有聽到嗎是是沒有他們就自己要用啊你如果要叫我做這個事情所以就是那個輔導那個政策上是不是有很大的問題啊再來你現在說你可以要發新聞考了就代表環境部要已經都溝通好要站出來了啊到底那個到底是可以出於哪一塊啊量可以達到多少還是只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
19980.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
20008.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
只是一個宣示的作用而已你這樣就到時候你還可以調整是委員這邊我再補充一下那現在我們為什麼會花一點時間是一個業者一個月跟他們問那現在有32業者他願意來參與並且公開他174筆的一個驗證資料那這個上這個平台呢我們是請他提供說他有些驗證的那個資訊所以有要一個個去跟他們來對照那再把這個平台呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
20009.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
20011.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
在發布新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
20011.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
20041.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
好 你現在確定有174的驗證也不代表全部都驗證通過嘛還是已經驗證通過了都通過了它可以應用到現在市場上最可以去評估溢價的相關的什麼包材你們把那個換為那個規格還是品項給我們委員做參考可以持續性的喔而不是只有可能有個就一個月就不見了還是說只有一個禮拜就不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
20043.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
20050.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
還有的是公開在那個地方根本就叫不到貨還有的可能你現在跟我講這種話還比現在漲價的相關的寶采還貴會這樣嗎?會喔?不是不會喔?現在沒中輸中有可能那這個我們會再來注意一下好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
20064.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
20093.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
好謝謝劉建國委員發言林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在接著我們請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席主席請一下彭部長有請彭部長董事長好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
20094.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
20104.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
部長 去年有一個國際知名的醫學期刊大概有發表一個報告 內容裡面有講到塑膠原料產量從1950年到 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
20110.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
20137.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
到目前為止暴增了200多倍從每年不到200萬噸已經到了將近5億噸而且在預估可能在2060年會突破10億去年我們環境部有宣布減速政策的新指標大概就是以2024年為基準目標是在2035年 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
20141.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
20169.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
一次性的將石化塑膠產品減量10%並且就是跳脫單一現今用的手段結合了許多政策面經濟面還有教育面的各種方式希望能夠達到減速的目標那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
20170.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
20195.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我大概先跟部長探討一個問題就是說以往我們在傳統市場夜市或者是微型的餐飲業在推動減速政策的時候最容易遇到阻力部分的原因是因為消費習慣和商業太陽所導致的因為這些消費型態類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
20199.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
20217.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
它假如說要跟一般的商店做相同的東西可能會直接衝擊到基層攤商的生存對這個環境部有沒有看法或者因應的對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
20219.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
20245.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
對 謝謝委員因為其實我們那時候推的檢說2018年推然後到了我上任的時候有一個工作就是去委員說的這個基層的這個同仁然後我發現其實要推動那塊是最困難的因為那一段其實是代表基層然後它是微型經濟所以你要去推限制反而造成它這個經營形態的很不方便所以我們一直想也可能造成它收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
20246.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
20270.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
收入的減少因為造成客人的這個因為他的東西就是要快不方便性嘛所以來消費的人就少嘛這個是很大的問題所以我後來我們就蹲點了包含好幾個市場還有一個花市所以我後來我就直接先選建國花市因為我覺得那個我總要找一個全台灣塑膠用很多的我可以改造它成功我才有辦法做別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
20270.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
20294.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
不然的話每一個都是示範場域所以我們覺得建國化是後來我們曾經到達10%的人不拿那個大型的塑膠袋來裝花了所以我們就有這個底氣去做所以現在為什麼說我們推袋袋相傳就是說希望大家用二手袋去用而且我們也提供二手袋讓大家用那目前而且有那個幼幼卡提供幼嬰你直接帶一個環保袋甚至用飲料杯可以換五塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
20295.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
20308.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
所以這個月薪大滾動起來就容易有機會會成功啦那至於說要不要直接限那個夜市攤商市場基本上這個要很小心要很小心而且部長剛剛講的是你選擇了花式來做最初的啟動點這個可能是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
20320.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
20345.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
因為花式就是大家用二次使用的塑膠袋會比較願意可是其他的夜市那個就會更難不過總是要先有起點起點開始推動以後才會有後續的那希望剛剛部長講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
20351.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
20370.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
的數據是大概有10%的人願意用那其實也不算很高啦我知道很難可是10%也不算很高啦因為我剛剛講的嘛花式已經算是相對好推動的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
20372.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
20387.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
比起一般的夜市的其他消費型態算是比較好推的我不是否定你們辛苦的成果我只是在講說這個應該要再想想看有沒有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
20388.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
20403.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
方法可以讓他再進速一點因為我們檢縮政策很多譬如說像你在建國化四農你可能也有一些短期的政策獎勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
20407.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
20427.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
短期的政策獎勵總會有退場的時候那更長遠的機制部裡面這邊有沒有相關的想法我沒有說要你講出既定的政策因為應該沒有既定的政策有沒有一些想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
20428.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
20437.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
報告委員,因為我自己有特別去觀察東方,日本、韓國、香港、新加坡跟台灣,華人、東方人的習慣,目前這些對於市場、零售攤販等等, |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
20445.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
20471.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
的確是這一里路也沒有一個國家限所以基本上我們有觀察到這個現象但是如果說有一點教育上能夠改變這個可能是現階段我們可以做的我認為其實如果我們把最後一里路這個讓大家的不方便我們可能會影響到這種微型企業或是比較辛苦的朋友這個我是覺得於心不忍所以我們會用另外一種方法用獎勵鼓勵的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
20471.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
20487.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
所以這次建國花市裡面包含了你帶一個環保袋去買一個花少一個QR code馬上就給你折五塊錢一次五塊錢一次五塊錢所以那個誘因就很大所以那個基本上我是覺得用這樣的方式讓大家習慣了可能花個一年時間來改變是有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
20488.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
20517.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
所以我是希望快速複製剛剛部長講的沒錯就是說我們假如說特別是在夜市很多是食品類的要現用確實很可能就把夜市微型經濟全部都癱瘓掉所以教育推廣跟國人的就是我們把不方便性看嘗試著透過教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
20518.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
20543.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
轉嫁給消費者就是自己帶不過這個更是困難不過因為我們也謝謝食藥署我們前兩個禮拜有跟他們辦一個記者會因為攤商用了很多塑膠袋裝麵熱熱的其實那個塑膠袋都要有一定的規定所以我們要鼓勵大家例如說可不可以用美奈米的不過這個是另外一個問題就是要大幅度的翻轉讓大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
20547.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
20567.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
還是一條很艱辛的路啦不過還是勢必要走啦我接下來問就是我剛剛講餐食的部分其實是最困難的我們現在假如說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
20568.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
20580.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
譬如說紙餐盒咖啡杯這個都是可回收的而必須要跟一般的紙類分開他大概就是廢紙容器類我 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
20584.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
20612.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我這邊的數據是台灣每一年消耗超過80億個紙餐盒跟紙杯那目前我們的有關紙容器再生的去化處理能量足不足是 各位報告現在那個紙容器呢是有幾家廠像那個振隆他會在他的大園廠有個專門一個那個產線是回收紙容器去再生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
20613.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
20639.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
我說那他有沒有辦法處理這81個目前量能是足夠的那當然有些這個我們子龍器是沒有被回收回來也有啦因為這樣子啦因為大家對啦有一部分沒有回收為什麼呢因為我這邊的數據是其實最終有超過七成並沒有進入循環體系中 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
20641.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
20660.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
那沒有進入行政體系就是往焚化爐去了就是我只是把問題點出來啦因為我覺得在委員會太為難你們也於心不忍啦因為有很多事情的推動確實也不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
20661.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
20678.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
也不是一下子就可以見到成效可是立法委員站在民意的立場還是必須要求你們去做一些事就是說我們盡可能剛剛講的假如說連假如說是一般的民眾觀點的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
20680.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
20690.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
沒有做好分類那是教育推廣公部門比較沒有問題啦不過比較沒有責任啦不過假如說我們現在是連 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
20693.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
20721.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
紙餐盒跟紙杯的再生去化處理的量能都不足這個可能要想辦法看是要輔導廠商還是要跟地方縣市政府做討論這個量能必須要足才有辦法應付嘛要不然我們現在說有七成都說到了焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
20722.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
20742.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
那這個明顯是錯的那我們直接說是民眾的觀念有問題環保觀念不夠落實所以才沒有做好分類萬一他做好分類了我們的量不足那這個問題也很大是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
20745.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
20759.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
基本上像這些後端的那個紫容器的處理廠應該是夠的那他的關鍵在說那個回收成本高而且他有時候會有一些那個灘灘水水有些食物在上面所以回收的這個過程是比較我們需要要來努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
20760.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
20784.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
好啊 好不好 很多事情很困難啦不困難的事情輪不到你們做啦不過外委員 這個像立法院喔 便當你看只有我們環境部會弄鐵便當對 其他全部都是紙的所以要做就大家一起來做對 這個我有注意到這個確實 我剛剛也講了啦我想在座所有的人也都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
20786.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
20791.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
食品類的確實是最困難因為你們的鐵餐和便當可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
20797.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
20816.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
花費的錢會比一般的高多一點點多一點點啊多一點點那就就請召委鼓勵來委員會開會的部會多多使用啊好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝楊耀委員發言所以彭部長等一下有其他部長跟你抱怨你要自改 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
20817.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
20832.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
承受後果本日會議詢答全部結束委員邱振鈞 徐欣盈所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現做以下決定及決議一 報告說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢及 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
20843.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
20869.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定三 廢棄物清理法條文修正草案等9案及資源回收再利用法修正草案等2案尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查本日會議到此結束 現在休息明天上午9時繼續開會 |