| IVOD_ID |
17318 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17318 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-01T08:38:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-01T14:53:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:14:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685bbd6dedb4516fb0fa82c4ca6dd6713f27a9d5466ed3f814044fe13ba5fbcfde35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、原住民族委員會就「穩定原住民族就業、改善低薪與勞動權益保障，並縮小職業災害發生率及死亡率差距之執行現況與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部、衛生福利部就「開放家有十二歲以下子女家庭逕行申請外籍家事移工政策，對本國勞工就業、照顧體系負擔、兒童最佳利益及相關權益保障之衝擊評估與制度配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部、衛生福利部、行政院、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、法務部，就「職場霸凌申訴機制之檢討：以顏慧欣案為例，如何建構員工心理健康與職場保障機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:38:02 - 14:53:00 |
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請準備報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人以主法定人數現在開會請議事人員先讀三次會議時錄 |
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1352.987 |
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立法院第十一屆第五會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第三次全體委員會議事錄時間115年3月25日9時至13時21分115年3月26日9時至14時15分地點群縣樓801會議室出席委員林月琴等15人列席委員鍾嘉斌等20人列席官員3月25日及3月26日均由衛生福利部部長石崇良及各相關主管代表列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1381.035 |
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1396.738 |
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主席林昭吉委員月勤3月25日報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項審查委員謝一鳳等19人離聚兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第31條條文修正草案等72案 |
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1402.196 |
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1427.909 |
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本日會議經委員陳金輝等七人說明提案指去由衛生福利部部長石崇良及教育部國民及學前健康署教育署副署長戴淑芬說明後委員林月琴等十八人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部部長石崇良及教育部國民及學前教育署副署長戴淑芬及各相關主管等即席答覆委員柯之恩等三人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決議說明集訊打完畢為 |
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1429.87 |
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1453.294 |
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委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料則請相關機關於二週內已書面答覆委員另要求期限則從期鎖定三 兒童及少年福利與權益保障法修正草案等七十二案令則其繼續審查三月二十六日邀請衛生福利部部長及勞動部部長就在職照顧者支持體系是否完善長照三點零服務輸送與長照安排價評估進行專題報告並備質詢 |
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1456.535 |
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1483.557 |
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委員會議由衛生福利部部長石崇良及勞動部部長洪森漢報告後委員林月琴等20人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長石崇良政務次長呂健德及勞動部部長洪森漢及各相關主管等即席答覆文揚 瓊英等4人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定報告及詢討完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關員二周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定通過臨時提案以下宣讀完畢 |
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1485.404 |
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1487.05 |
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請問委員會三次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處 |
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1493.919 |
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1512.214 |
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好 議事錄確定本日會議議程有三項專題分別是邀請勞動部部長衛生福利部援助民主委員會就穩定援助民主就業改善低薪與勞動權益保障並縮小職業災害發生率及死亡率差距之執行現況與精進作為進行專題報告並被質詢第二 邀請勞動部衛生福利部就開放 |
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1520.481 |
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1534.176 |
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家有12歲以下子女家庭進行申請外籍家事移工政策對本國勞工就業照顧體系負擔兒童最佳利益及相關權益保障之衝擊評估與制度配套進行專題報告並被質詢 |
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1536.298 |
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1554.702 |
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三 邀請勞動部 衛生福利部 行政院行政院人士 行政總署 權序部 公務人員保障暨培訓委員會 法務部就職場80申訴機制之檢討 以延會新案為例如何建構員工心理健康與職場保障機制進行專題報告並備諮詢這三項專題我們採綜合詢問方式進行現在介紹在場委員及列席官員 |
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1567.198 |
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1591.49 |
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我們勞動部部長洪聖翰勞發署署長黃玲玉資金運用局局長蘇玉清職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂勞安署署長王厚誠 |
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1595.672 |
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1616.872 |
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勞動關係司司長王厚維勞動保險司司長陳美女勞動福祉退休司司長黃維生勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃齊亞勞動條件及維生福利部政務次長呂健德 |
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1622.148 |
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1646.204 |
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護理局健康照護師副市長陳春梅心理健康師副市長鄭淑欣長期照顧師檢驗計政白珊琪社家署副署長詹梅梅國健署檢驗計政劉巧金園民會處長劉赫祿 |
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1650.854 |
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1655.799 |
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行政院副秘書長李國興人事處處長陳崑源中規處處長李美惠全區部法規師專門委員蕭立榮保障暨培訓委員會處長蔡憲維 |
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1677.576 |
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1685.903 |
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法治司檢察官楊石宇接下來請勞動部部長報告一起報告 |
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1703.858 |
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1724.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席各位委員大家好今天會排定穩定原住民就業改善低薪與勞動權益保障並縮小職業災害發生率及死亡率差距之執行現況進行作為專案報告本部應要列席說明並聆聽各位委員的這個指教請委員不吝請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1725.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1751.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本部警就協助原住民族就業提升薪資及降低職業災害等面向之執行現況與精進作為報告如下有關穩定原住民就業原住民為就業服務法第24條第1項第4款所列政府應致力就業促進對象由各公立就業服務機構依其就業意願與需求提供就業諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1752.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1770.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就業媒合轉介職業訓練等個別化服務為促進其就業積極運用各項就業促進措施包括提供雇用獎助鼓勵雇主提供職缺增加禁用援助民族工作機會運用缺工就就獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1771.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1795.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
鼓励失业劳工投入特定制造业及照顾服务业等特定缺工行业助其稳定就业并提供跨域就业津贴降低失业者异地就业障碍有关保障原住民劳工薪资及相关劳动权益凡受雇于适用劳动基准法失业单位之劳工其劳动权益受该法保障雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1795.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1813.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
及应遵守该法及最低工资法相关规定另外本部也致力协助原住民提升职能在地就业为协助失业或待业劳工就业依产业发展及就业市场需求办理多元化就业导向 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1814.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1833.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
之前训练课程原住民朋友可依个别需求参训并结合民间团体办理多元就业开发方案及赔利就业计划提供在地上工纲位作为重返就业市场前之过渡及适应在降低职业灾害方面近年本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1835.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1852.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
勞動及職業安全衛生研究所針對職災比例較高之營造工程業製造業及住宿餐飲業原住民勞工進行深度訪談發現職業災害成因主要包括未落實防護措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1853.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1878.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
作業疏忽他人過失及工作環境存在危險因子早期針對特定族群職災特性分析也發現原住民勞工在營造之傷營造業之傷害失能與死亡事故多集中於年資未滿一年的勞工顯示高風險作業現場基本防護最管理及新進人員安全訓練為降低原住民勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1880.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1905.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
為降低原住民勞工職災風險的重要環節為持續強化原住民職場安全與健康降低職災發生本部自今年度正式啟動為期三年的強化職場減災行動計劃優先鎖定營造業與中小微企業透過跨部會合作及公司協力推動相關減災策略如強化營造業源頭管理及現場防護機制針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1907.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1936.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
製造業等中小微型企業提供輔導與補助本部持續依勞動市場供需狀況掌握原住民就業及參訓中需求規劃符合產業需求之多元職類執訓課程並會與原民會合作加強各項措施促進公司部門落實禁用原住民強化就業穩定落實原住民勞工職災預防工作以降低事故的發生保障勞工權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1937.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1964.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
以上報告那敬請各位委員指教那這是真的第一個那第二個第二案是這個針對開放家有12歲以下子女家庭進行申請外籍以外外勤家事移工政策對本國就業照顧體系負擔兒童對家利益及相關權益保障之衝擊評估及制度配套進行專案報告首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1965.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1985.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因少子化及雙薪家庭補給育兒與家務負擔日益沉重影響勞工需求職場意願政府推動0到6歲國家一起養政策並大力到推動各項育兒補助措施但面對夜間零食及多元家務的需求仍有不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1986.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2002.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
家庭的多元需求需以多元政策组合回应让家庭有更多选择现行外籍帮助申请门槛严格可是用家庭比例偏低难以回应多数的育儿家庭需求精神性评估后规划放宽申请资格让育儿 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2003.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2019.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
未滿12歲子女家庭得依需求申請外籍包容以減輕家務負擔並支持勞工續留職場外籍包容政策定位為輔助性的家務幫手協助日常家務及生活支持並非取代專業托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2020.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2035.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是给不同需求家庭多一种选择实务上不同家庭会依各自的需求选择并非全部都使用帮佣同时针对弱势及特殊需求家庭采差异化措施包括降低就业安定费 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2037.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2061.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那也針對弱勢部分優先審查以兼顧公平與照顧需求經本部與衛福部廣泛了解各界意見同時影響評估說明如下對本國勞工就業而言需要家務協助的家庭表示若政策開放多數人會依據自身需求使用現有的社會支持措施那部分的家庭可能會減少一些使用的服務時數 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2062.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2077.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那二與既有體系互補也就是外籍幫傭可以現行的托育措施互補補足夜間及臨時照顧缺口減輕主要照顧者壓力降低因照顧被迫離開職場的情形三對兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2079.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2095.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
而兒童利益的影響當繁重的家務獲得分擔後家長可投入更多時間於教養與陪伴那針對影響評估部分本部和衛福部共同合作相關配套如下第一個穩定本國勞工就業與開拓勞務市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2097.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2123.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
透過擴大家事與托育服務媒合平台推動育兒指導員提供就業獎勵及職能培訓協助本國就業人員技能升級與穩定就業確保工作品質與勞僱權益本部將與衛福部合作強化外籍包容訓練與到宅指導並透過雇主聘請獎席職前訓練入國獎席落實法令宣導與勞僱關係的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2125.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2143.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第三持續強化育兒支持措施配合0到6歲國家一起養政策持續大力道的推動育嬰留庭以日申請包括家庭照顧假以及企業托育措施形成完整的相關的網絡那本部會與衛福部密切合作來確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2144.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2171.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
本國的工作者勞動力穩定發展同時也為下一代建構更完善的這個相關的環境那最大的目的是希望育兒家庭能夠安心工作續留職場家庭減壓以上報告那我們的第三份報告那是針對這個職場霸凌申訴機制是檢討那以這個顏惠欣副總行辦代表為例那如何建構員工心理健康與職場保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2174.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2193.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那我們在這部分第一部分是有關職場霸凌防制相關的法制那在114年12月19號新修正的這個職安法已經徵定了職場霸凌防制的專章那相關的重點我想其實大家應該都可以查得到那第二部分是那我們關於這個職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2196.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2211.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
防治規劃的配套措施有包括如下第一個建置職場霸凌調查專業人才資料庫以及職場霸凌案件通報系統規劃全國職場霸凌防治的宣導教育訓練以及外部人調查培訓資源第三個積極爭取各縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2214.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2229.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
政府以及檢查機構之人力相關經費第三第四點是提供中小企業聆聽外部調查專案人員之部分補助資源那我們也在跟公務人員與勞工職場霸凌的法制進行調和 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2231.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2253.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
去年在职安法修法过程中本部以多次会商考试院保训会就公务人员与劳工不同场域之职场霸凌防治机制进行调和并于研拟相关附属法规时参考公务人保障法及公务人员执行职务安全及卫生防务办法等规定使职场霸凌之申诉调查处理机制尽量趋于一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2254.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2271.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
職場霸凌防制著重前端預防需要勞資政三方共同努力那新法上路後我們會擴大宣傳那目前我們資安署其實也針對相關的附屬法規進行修訂那預計希望在今年年中那都可以上路那來提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2273.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2288.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
勞資雙方對職場霸凌預防及處理的職能形塑健康安全友善的職場文化確保健康勞動力永續發展以上報告敬敬祝大家身體健康萬事如意謝謝謝謝黃部長接下來請衛生福利部理見的資產報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2300.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2311.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
主席各位委員女士先生今天大院第15屆第5次未還委員會召開全體會議那麼本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸那麼以下就 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2313.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2330.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
委員會這邊所關心的幾個案幾個部分來向各位來做個報告第一促進原住民族健康縮短平均餘命差距影響平均餘命原住民平均餘命的因素非常多包括生活型態環境生物因子以及醫療資源等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2331.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2357.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那麼113年原住民族平均餘命為73.23歲國人則為80.77那麼歷年原住民族與全體國民平均餘命的差距是103年的8.24歲目前已經降至113年的7.54第二原住民族113年死因排行事故第六那麼另外根據112年原住民族統計年報資料事故傷害以 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2358.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2361.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
當中以運輸事故所佔的比例為最高第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2362.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2390.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
本部持續推動六大策略來補食原鄉地區醫療資源以及量能包含提升醫療照護可敬性充實在地醫事人力提升公立醫療設備強化在地醫療量能強化緊急醫療後送機制等等作為來促進原住民族健康平權來建構符合原住民族文化安全的健康照護服務模式第二開放家有12歲以下子女 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2391.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2405.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
家庭進行申請外籍家事移工政策第一本部為減輕家庭育兒的負擔持續通過部件公共化托育機構以及運用準公共機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2407.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2432.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
擴大整體托育服務量能透過公司協力共同滿足家長的托育照顧需求那麼以下幾個數字來跟各位報告截至1215年2月底為止全國總計有537家公共化托育機構可以收托17796名兒童那麼有1387托育施托中心可以收托 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2435.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2453.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
8773名兒童其中1217家的有跟政府簽訂準公共契約等等那麼另外我想這些基本上都體現我們政府會持續來推動各項的公托以及準公托的政策第二依據兒童及少年福利權利保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2454.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2471.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對於托育人員的資格規範專業職能的培訓都有相關的規定那麼本部為確保托育人員有相關的有品質的托育服務那麼也會來包括推動記憶作為包括第一托育資訊的公開揭露第二事前把關第三仿視的這個輔導第三為了因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2476.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2503.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
家庭照顾的需求多元化本部也积极布建公共化以及准公共的托育服务外并且也扩大推动育儿指导员的服务以及长期照顾服务的3.0这些基本上都是属于所谓社会照顾那么都需要来进一步的增加我们的照顾服务能力同时也搭配劳动部的家务帮手政策扩大劳务市场进行社会投资本部也持续积极培养 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2505.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2522.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
托育人員育兒指導員照顧服務員等等以支持協助育兒家庭以及擴增整體協助家庭的服務量能第四因為開放家有12歲以下子女家庭申請外籍家事移工的政策本部已經規劃兩年期 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2524.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2539.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
居家托育人員多元就業的獎勵計畫持續協助居家托育人員的媒合在宅或到宅的托育服務以穩定就業或者鼓勵居家托育人員從事托育中心托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2540.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2569.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
育儿指导员照顾服务员等工作以增补社会照顾体系所需要的人力第五本部会针对照顾服务的需求增加需要更多的服务人力来持续培育托育人员并且关注外籍帮佣新制实施后对于托育服务市场的这一个影响与劳动部共同合作来提供多元就业的机会让有需求的家庭都能够获得协助第三建构 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2571.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2593.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
員工心理健康與職場保障的機制第一本部已經根據我們最新修訂的包括去年所修訂的公務人員保障法以及安慰辦法等等相關法規來建立完善的職場霸凌申訴以及調查處理機制那麼作為同仁反映與處理職場霸凌的重要依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2594.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2622.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那麼在員工支持方案方面我們也推動各項的員工的協助方案此外本部也結合了13個部會共同推動全民心理健康任性計畫在職場面向強化員工協助的方案與社區的資源並且將心理健康的教育等等這些來納入那麼綜合以上我們為了落實健康台灣的願景本部將持續推動援助民族地區醫療照護服務可進行以及資源的部件的各項策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2624.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2640.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
逐步來縮短城鄉差距而針對開放家有12歲以下子女進行申請外籍家事移工的政策本部則辦理各項多項的措施來減輕家庭育兒的負擔並且以勞動部來持續來共同合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2641.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2664.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
而最後本部也將透過制度建立跨部會的合作以及資源整合來營造友善而且知識性的職場環境並且提升同仁心理健康與組織的整體韌性再次感謝委員對本部的一個指教敬致謝誠謝謝謝謝我們李建德次長接下來請行政院李國新副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2676.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2696.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主席各位委員先進大家好那今天應邀列席貴委員會進行專題報告請代表行政院列席說明為了建構健康友善職場並落實職場霸凌的防治本院依相關規定設置了院本部安全及衛生防護委員會處理相關事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2697.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2715.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
委員共計12人由秘書長擔任召集人其中5人為專家學者那本院院本部員工如果有遭受職場霸凌如果是非因被霸凌人申訴而知悉時本院會就相關的事實進行必要的釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2717.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2738.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有關台灣美國事務委員會原前主任委員蕙欣她是自2013年5月20日起兼任本院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表疑似於執行職務過程受職場霸凌情勢本院在3月26日隨即依前述的相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2739.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2769.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
於同日組成調查小組並為了確保調查的公正性與客觀性調查小組成員全數指請本院防護委員會專業的外聘委員來擔任經徵詢意願後由四位具有相關專長且有意願參與之外聘委員組成並於3月27日隨即召開第一次會議就各階段的任務拟據執行的計畫如下第一階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2769.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2788.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
以问卷普发的方式针对相关单位进行全面的调查第二阶段确认发放的对象实施方式办理实诚及接受访谈的意愿并根据回收的结果初步会诊增点作为会诊后续深度访谈的参考 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2789.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2810.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
第三阶段安排委员与关键的同仁进行深度的访谈第四阶段会诊问卷访谈以及会议等等的各项客观资料厘清争点与事实完成初步的报告第五阶段会提交本院防护委员会就调查报告进行审议 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2811.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2833.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
全案調查及審議我們會遵循相關的法令規範來辦理同時在規定的期限內緊迫的完成調查內容還原事實的樣貌針對職場霸凌事件本院除了啟動相關的調查程序謹慎處理外也會依實際情形提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2833.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2854.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
相關員工協助方案的關懷措施持續加強友善職場的建構透過多元宣導或者教育訓練強化同仁及主管對於職場霸凌的意識賠利提升對於相關事件的覺察敏感度以及應變能力落實友善健康的職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2855.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2872.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
最後本院對於嚴副總談判代表的離世深感遺憾與不捨國家因此痛失在國際經貿領域的優秀人才然而釐清事實的樣貌建構友善職場行政院必定會努力不懈謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2874.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2897.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好謝謝行政院李國新副秘書長報告現在開始詢答作以下宣告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果書面質詢請於上會請提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2898.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2916.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
原則上11點半處理臨時提案 11點截止收案現在請登記第一位委員 林玉月請召委發言謝謝主席 麻煩勞動部部長我請洪森漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2925.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2953.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
林委員好部長早我想今天有很多議題要問可是我今天事實上是帶著我們的環團的託付來問一些問題國家已經宣示我們2050年的那個近年轉型賴總統也成立了氣候變遷對策委員會而且訂出203020322035的那個減碳目標在這樣政策方向下勞動部主管的勞金局 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2953.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2975.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
掌管了大概8兆元的基金我完全同意基金操作当然要重视财务报酬可是现在我们的绿色金融已经是国际趋势金管会推动我国接轨IFRS永续揭露的准则要求上市柜公司揭露永续风险完成我们的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2977.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2997.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
溫室的氣體的盤查提出氣候轉型的計畫也就是說民間企業都被要求要做政府基金當然沒有理由事實上是落後的所以我要請教部長一個很簡單的問題今年全國環境NGO的大會環團針對勞金局提出幾項要求包括要求提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2998.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3026.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
基金的透明度那個揭露投資組合的那個減碳路徑明確的化石燃料的撤資的時間表請問部長為什麼勞金局會要求我們的環團對於環團要求的這個在會議上的建議來解除劣管是因為勞金局已經達成環團要求的人嗎那是不是部長可不可以解釋一下你要建議解除劣管的那個理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3027.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3056.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
跟文說明其實關於這個我們基金的相關的投資運用那要如何來符合國際上面其實不管是這個人權或者是環境氣候的要求其實我想我自己也跟老金局做了好幾次的討論那我想請這部分請局長來跟說明所以局長要講清楚為什麼他們要求的就你要叫人家解除列管你已經做到了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3057.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3078.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
報告委員事實上我們勞金局在永續投資的部分尤其氣候變遷風險的部分我們一直都是持續向前也積極在推動的那我們很多的措施都同步在推動那至於環境基金NGO大會所謂的項目包括他可能希望我們是不是能夠承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3079.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3101.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
對特定的高碳排產企業去撤資等等的我想藉這個機會跟委員報告就國際整個趨勢來看包括國際大型的退休基金都不主張撤資所以我們其實也考慮到對勞工的影響尤其我們勞動基金是政府大型的退休基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3102.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3120.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
不適合直接對外宣布我們對哪個公司哪個產業去撤資那我想至於是不是解除列管因為其實不影響我們對於整個永續投資的進程那列管會有什麼困難嗎因為他不是只有講說撤資的時間表啦委員長因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3122.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3139.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
全國環境NGO大會我也很熟那當然行政部門其實常常因為這個它會有很多項的列管那其實這個列管其實也是需要跟NGO討論所以如果NGO覺得這個議題還有再討論下去的需要的話其實我想大家也可以繼續再深入討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3140.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3166.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那就希望部長要講得更精準一點就是勞金局不是沒有做可是做得還不夠因為今天問題不是形式上有沒有能夠要寫進報告書裡面而是這是人民的退休基金有沒有持續鋪在一個高碳排投資風險當中這才是關鍵勞金局在永續報告書裡面確實宣示要朝我們的投資組合進營 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3168.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3182.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
排放的一個來做前進可是問題是只有宣示沒有具體的路徑只有方向沒有短中長期的目標反過來看勞金局從WBA的那個世界基準的聯盟的國際永續金 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3185.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3212.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個評估來看的話在全球400個受評機構當中我們是排名大324名幾乎是後段班而且有好幾個項目是零這不是環團自己講的而且這事實上是國際評比直接點出來的落差所以想問部長說面對民間企業被要求揭露被要求轉型勞金局卻明顯落後你怎麼看這個落後而且每次團體拿出這個評分表資料出來的時候我也想知道部長回應到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3214.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3229.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
跟我說明我們可以來再看一下這個評鑑的狀況可是我是想補充其實我認為這件事情這個議題最根本的字最關鍵的字叫做風險其實叫做風險那當然對於氣候的風險要去怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3235.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3259.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
國際上面也會有很多對氣候風險不斷去認定的框架不斷的演進的事情不斷演進的趨勢所以我也請蘇局長那針對國際上面對氣候風險怎麼樣去認定怎麼樣去認知包括人權風險怎麼樣去認定認知我們應該要跟上國際的趨勢我想其實關鍵是這件事情所以勞軍局其實他每天最重要的工作就是去評估判斷這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3261.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3275.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
只是哪些風險只是哪些風險要納進來可是我覺得因為在這個這個評鑑它它是不是針對金融機構的排名可是因為我們不是金融機構啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3278.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3302.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
問題是今天我覺得還是在基金是你們投資那你們有沒有還是投資在這些我們覺得不是這麼OK的因為剛剛那個評比剛剛有人看前一張他的標的是台灣金融機構可是也是國際氣候的那個評比因為勞金局不算是金融機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3304.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3324.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好 再來我要談的是勞金局到底什麼時候才開始算因為勞金局在永續報告裡面寫得很清楚要等到上市櫃公司2029年才開始盤查跟確信才開始蒐集資料計算我們的財務碳排放照這個時程的話最快2030年才會有第一個基準數 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3327.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3335.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我補充報告 事實上我們勞金局持續在關注碳排的相關資訊我們內部在113年就完成112年我們投資組合自營的部分的碳排放114年就完成113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3342.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3368.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
但是我們考量到資訊品質最主要就是因為金廣會在宣佈他要在上市櫃公司2027年完成碳盤查2029年才完成確信所以我們考量到目前的資訊品質我們在我們規劃的路徑上我們規劃在2026年也就是今年我們提前 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3368.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3387.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為我們經過兩年的評估檢視我們的資訊品質然後也仿佛去不同的來源去核對所以現在是2027嗎沒有我們會是維持到2029沒有沒有沒有我剛剛有報告就是說我們經過這幾年的收集跟相關事實上我們內部都有資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3387.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3413.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那我們會配合我們因為我們兩年發布一次永續報告書我們會在2026年的永續報告書也就是今年的永續報告書揭露我們國內自營投資如果我們委託我們委託有117個帳戶那這個金額也很龐大我們有400多檔的股票所以我們如果說我們檢視再重新檢視後我們會一起提前在今年的2026年永續報告書一併揭露好 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3417.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3443.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為你看原來我們的勞金局說話我覺得這個問題很大因為現在退府基金都已經完成了財務碳排放的一個揭露所以我覺得你們不是做不到為什麼因為再來八大工股的行庫也都在進行這代表要做不是完全沒有基礎勞金局也不能再用基金規模差異我們的基礎數據是不是可靠來做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3445.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3462.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
只要求就是就是要開始做了所以現在外界質疑很直接別人已經做到的事情為什麼勞金局還要等因為國家訂的目標事實上是2030年的那個減碳要到30%這就變成一個很荒謬的狀況就也就國家都已經要交成績單了 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3463.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3485.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
老金局卻還要再等說什麼時候開始計分那我辦公室已經跟老金局溝通過好幾次所以我要請教部長說真的要等到2029開始算嗎還是反正剛剛講說你2026今年就會開始嘛那就是會是比我們剛剛得到那前面我們溝通都一直溝通無效啦那不知道為什麼我還是要說明我覺得關鍵的概念是風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3487.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3502.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
所以怎麼看待這個氣候的風險人權的風險因為對勞軍局來說他們也需要對這麼多的勞工他們的勞工的錢拿到這個政府的基金來投資他也要對收益負滿大的沉重的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3503.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3528.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以這個風險怎麼認知其實會關乎到勞軍局在這裡面各種基金運用跟投資的判斷那我也請他們說如果今天在國際上面對於氣候的風險的認定有一些新的看法請勞軍局我們應該要跟上那我覺得這件事情是重要的關鍵部長我覺得為什麼國際會有這樣子也關乎到我們地球的生存的量我覺得這也很至為關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3529.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3547.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
所以接下來我要談執行策略面對高碳排的產業國際上已經有很多做法很清楚了包括挪威 荷蘭 法國 韓國還有我們臺灣不少民間金融機構都已經設定投資門檻訂定了一個撤資的時程承諾不再新增對於我們的煤炭跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3548.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3571.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
煤電廠的一個投資並且逐步撤出所以反過來看勞金局我們辦公室在溝通的時候勞金局目前還是堅持以義核作為主要的策略我要請教部長原因是什麼你真的認為單靠義核效果是可以期待的嗎為什麼在面對高碳排投資的時候我們的那個撤資始終事實上不是一個優先的一個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3574.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3589.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我想要跟委員還是說明因為我知道勞運局的壓力他們這個擔負了這麼多的勞工然後甚至有些基金還有這個財務上面的挑戰比方說勞保基金還有財務上面的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3591.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3617.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
所以他們其實對於收益這件事情他們的壓力是非常非常大的所以還是一樣我覺得今天有可能很多種路徑可以達到這個相關的方向可是我們還是把這個風險的認定的方式我覺得我認為在風險認定的方式大家可以做多做討論今天如果的確因為氣候的風險或環境的風險造成某一些投資的標的他的風險也急劇升高很多那這個該減少就減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3619.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3638.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我覺得必須從風險的角度來看待對不一定是我們單押在某一種路徑上面某一種工具上面我要對勞金局說義和事實上是世界潮流這個來提出討論因為荷蘭的兩大退休基金ABP跟我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3639.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3657.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
PFZW原本也不是一開始就是測試他們一開始是採取的的確也是義核策略但問題是和化石燃料公司義核多年之後他們最後得到一個結論是義核成效真的事實上是有限的所以我最後還是要請部長有具體的兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3659.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3670.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那個答案剛好已經講是老金局現在的義和到底有沒有要求機械改善的明確的時程然後另外一個是如果義和沒有達標的時候有沒有一個撤資的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3674.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3693.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
剛剛委員提的這兩個我們可以研議但是就像剛剛提到的就我們政府基金我們基本上是不會去對外宣布我們對某個公司某個產業去撤資但是我們是一個長期財務性的投資我們在投資的流程已經納入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3693.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3712.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個氣候邊遷風險所以如果我們看到公司並沒有如預期的他所做的承諾我們當然隨時可以在投資的部分做處理所以委員的所提出來我們也會很我覺得這如果沒有辦法做的話當然外界就很難相信說 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3714.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3730.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
菊心在談的義和真的能產生效果嗎為什麼我覺得今天你說叫老虎不要吃肉然後我念佛經給你聽然後老虎就真的不吃肉嗎你如果沒有一些手段的話當然我就沒有辦法做到我還是要說我覺得我們還是會比較回到風險的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3731.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3759.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那從風險的認定來看待老金局在投資上面的合理性包括跟效益我認為還是必須回到這件事情上部長我對這件事情我會一直警惕因為這是我們國家對國人對國際社會對我們下一代的責任我相信部長投入這個議題的時間比我更長更深所以我也知道老金局同仁我很謝謝昨天趕出一份報告給我但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3760.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3768.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
僅對於我們的期程設定有做了一些更新我不是很滿意因為您做的事情很多我希望勞動部一個月內清楚告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3769.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3797.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你們的困難到底在哪裡對這些要求做不到的原因是什麼是缺錢還是缺人來執行我從立院也會盡全力來協助我會請老林舉來參考國際的做法那國際做法上也許有些會走到比較前面一點那我覺得各種的做法我們都會來參考可是一樣概念我覺得回到風險的這個事情上面那民間倡議撤資這當然我們理解民間的倡議可是從政府的基金的角度他從風險來去做他相關的決策的判斷是 部長您 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3797.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3811.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
之前如果站在我這個位置上 我相信你也會問同樣的問題啦所以我很清楚 必須以風險為核心好 謝謝好 謝謝林營 請召委接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席 謝謝今天出席的委員跟官員首先想請勞動部部長還有衛福部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3825.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3828.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好請吳副部長及呂健德次長好 你好這個是本週的一個案例他爆發了一起診所的負責人對他的女員工有嚴重的職場性騷擾我們先看一下這個影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3865.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3881.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
許多人在網路上流傳了兩段影片有一段是在診所的櫃檯另外一段是他在幫應該是診所負責人開門的時候發生的強行搂抱並且這個女員工不斷的退縮閃躲她還變本加厲 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3883.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3910.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這名女員工她後來身心受創報警然後離職了但至今呢已經超過一個月這個醫師連一句道歉都沒有本案現在他是同步他有送檢調強制猥褻罪法辦但是我也想請問勞動部其實蠻多受害人你也知道啦很多這樣類似的受害人他不一定會走上法律途徑因為他這個身心煎熬會更久這些審判可能長達數年 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3912.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3925.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以我們想請教您的是現在部長掌握的資訊你會不會覺得這是很嚴重的職場性騷擾案件還有另外這起性騷擾案件的行政流程調查流程到底進度到哪裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3926.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3953.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
根本說沒有其實我也非常關注這個案子那包括這個案子的協助來自苗栗縣的一位民意代表所以其實我們也很關注那我就知道現在這個案子其實應該已經進入到苗栗縣政府的申訴跟調查的程序裡面了那目前應該司法的部分其實也有所介入所以就程序面的部分的進度應該是到這邊那我們當然從畫面上面來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3954.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3974.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
因為我之前也看過好幾次你剛才播放的畫面的確這當然是一件非常非常嚴重的事情所以我自己也很希望像這樣的狀況尤其是在醫療業的現場我自己也希望我們能夠跟目的世界主管機關來討論怎麼樣盡量的從更根本性的方式管理性的方式去避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3974.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3993.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好那我們就來討論根本性的方式因為您都提了這個上禮拜還沒有這個新聞我已經質詢這個議題因為衛福部被糾正一連串過去一年啊非常多醫事人員違反這個性別平等等等的事件所以衛福部被監察院糾正說他們的衛政跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3995.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4011.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
社政的串聯不夠好以至於很多醫事人員他可能已經爆發了行政調查報告也出來了結果一直持續接觸了脆弱族群或者是持續在這個職場還在上班可是很多人都不知道那我先給您看一下這個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4012.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4035.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
監察院對你提出了糾正他對很多部門都有提出糾正但是其中就包括衛福部監察院是這樣子說他說社政跟衛政的聯繫極度不足你們說已經建構了社會局通知衛生局的機制但是這邊還有一個bug要跟您討論因為一位醫事人員他有可能是在他的職場違反性工法有可能是在學校違反性教法那這樣子衛生局會不會收到通知因為我們不能每次都靠這種發公文傳統會有時間差的通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4037.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4064.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們現在已經建立那個衛社鎮的聯繫管道了所以那個已經...可是你剛好講啊因為還有教育場域還有職場的場域也有可能發生好那我們再跟教育部跟勞動部來討論一下好了我們之前是衛社鎮先連的那現在要跨部會了這是上週啦3月25號他說他要建立三方平台裡面就包括社會局包括勞動局包括這個教育局等等的那我想問一下這個系統性的借街他找你們聯絡了嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4067.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4085.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
非常感謝委員那個對於 包委員我們的一個對於整個職場性騷我想我們的態度一定是零容忍我想這是我們的基本原則那在這個部分其實在上一次委員您執行之後其實我們有跟勞動部這邊我們現在未來現在就是說現在兩個部分第一個就是說我們現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4086.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4105.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
衛生的部分我們主要市場是透過跟衛生局這邊那只要有相關的案例的話我們只我們會簽到有關職場的那個部分的話我們就跟勞動部這邊會建立一個整個相互的一個聯繫機制因為他說跟社會局的已經連接好了他已經有一個對接的然後另外上次委員您諮詢之後現在也跟教育嘛對不對那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4106.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4125.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
然後我們後續我們現在也跟那個勞動部這邊因為現在有關職場的部分好像有關於像醫院啊醫院端等等這些部分的話我們也會大概什麼時間內你可以具體給大家因為全國都在看大概多久的期限以內你們這個系統性的對接會完成包圍我們在一個月之內好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4126.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4154.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
一個月 沒錯 謝謝那接下來再問勞動部長一個問題因為我們知道說現在是這個縣政府他在做一個調查但是這個案件比較特別因為他等於是負責人本身就是加害人所以也會有一些關心這個事件的人他們會擔心是不是會有調查上的困難所以製作出完整的報告因為這方面你應該也蠻有經驗的可能蠻多都是有權勢的人他本身就是加害人那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4155.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4184.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你認為這個調查報告會不會有所延誤他如果是機構的負責人的話其實應該會可以到地方政府來去做向地方政府申訴來做調查所以其實就是針對這個最高負責人的狀況我們是在問您啊因為以您以往處理的經驗有權勢的人他其實也有可能會是加害人嘛但這個就有點困難了因為他必須要交由第三方比如說地方政府再請 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4186.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4200.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這個學者啊等等但因為他本身是在這個地方工作所以他有可能會對於接觸一些這個受害者的同事或者是對於影像的處理他比較容易接觸到那這方面會不會對於你們之後的調查報告會有所影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4202.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4231.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
其實因為在姓名三法修法以後其實就是針對最高負責人所以我自己是認為也是因為針對最高負責人如果被設定為是加害者的潛在對象的話所以才需要地方政府來做調查就是希望能夠去盡量避免他在這個事業單位裡面的那個權利的運用的狀況所以地方政府是有權利來做各種的調閱調查的狀況其實地方政府是有權利的好 收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4232.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4244.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那之後如果您有這個調查報告再希望您可以轉交給衛福部謝謝那兩位可以請先回座接下來想邀請這個保訓會的蔡處長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4258.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4267.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
處長我們先聽一段音檔 因為這個是疑似楊珍妮霸凌員工從前的音檔我們先聽完以後你再評價一下可以幫我播一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4288.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4298.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們給你的指令為什麼你要掌握成你自己的指令我的指令是希望同仁不要浪費時間的指令我有這樣講過你嗎我可以告你耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4308.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4335.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我想請教保訓會因為根據你們公務人員保障法的定義其實勞動部長也在場勞動部長也蠻在意這個議題的職場霸凌是指機關人員假借權勢逾越必要的範圍持續的以威脅侮辱或孤立的方式造成敵意性的工作環境以致於公務員身心受創那條文裡面也特別講到雖然他有強調持續性可是情節重大的不在此現那你認為這一段應當 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4337.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4340.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
在你們公務人員保障法裡面算不算是一個80 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4343.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4368.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
公務員報告我們關於職場霸凌的定義目前是定義在公務員保障法第19條第二項跟安慰辦法上面其實他對於職場霸凌的定義都有做一些客觀性的描述那至於這些法令上面的條文規定在具體個案事實上面怎麼樣去含設那這個我們在制度上是設計由包含了外部學者專家加入了調查小組來進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4370.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4400.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那之所以會有這樣的設計也是避免讓政府機關的人可以去可能會對這件事情有左右的空間或者是對於過去的組織文化有可能有認知上面的誤區那也因此對於剛剛播放的這樣的一個殷檔的這樣一個個案事實據我們的瞭解應該相關的機關已經有成立調查小組已經開始了已經開始調查在進行調查那我們可能不適合在這個地方去做評價這樣但這邊我是要提醒你 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4400.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4423.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
之後你也說了一定要第三方公正的來做調查嗎我們也擔心中間會被掩滅證據等等的我們來看這個是當時行政院114年1月2號提交了一個專欄報告當時勞動部有霸凌衛福部也有行政院還有兩個處長他被公有投訴就院本部就出現了霸凌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4424.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4445.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
事件所以當時呢引用賴總統的話就說一定要杜絕職場各種形式的霸凌落實健康的工作環境但今天為什麼會在這裡開這個委員會就是因為我們發生了談判副代表揭露遭到長期的忽視沒有人重視職場霸凌如果連行政院高層都疑似帶頭對照這個報告承諾落實賴總統指示我是覺得非常的諷刺啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4451.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4477.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這邊你剛有提到第19條你講得非常好如果發生這個事件置之不理主管應該要受罰但我想問您假使這個事件的受害者是談判副代表行政院體系政務委員的主管是誰誰該負起這個監督還有懲罰的責任因為如果職場已經知悉主管知悉沒有採取具體的有效措施是要依法懲處的是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4480.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4509.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
是跟委員報告依照我們公務人員職應職務安全衛生防護辦法第35條第一項第二款的規定就是當機關在接獲到申訴的時候其實他應該要立即採取有效的這個措施那縱使是未接獲申訴也是應該要去採取立即有效的措施政務委員的主管是誰是秘書長是副院長還是院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4510.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4527.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
是以本案來說應該是行政院行政院院長好主管是行政院院長我們會說他是一個機關的責任所以應該是行政院要去負責所以最後如果我們出來結果行政院有疏失您會說是行政院有疏失是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4529.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4546.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個必須要看因為據我們所知行政院在接獲到可能接獲到這樣的可能有 沒關係我先給你看時間序我整理時間序給您看我也希望您好好的去回顧一下近期的新聞3月12號是媒體披露我們的副談判代表他因病過世 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4552.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4556.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
3月12號之後呢這個我們副院長啊就出來說非常的難過哽咽稱呼他是最佳的戰友這件事結束之後呢就有他在因病離職的離職信很長你也看過流了出來流到媒體上然後再加上呢他的前同事就匿名到上面揭露說 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4576.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4579.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
他長期壓力業務壓力並且會議頻頻遭受否定斥責不同專業的觀點或者是遭長官繞過指揮包括赴美談判不帶他啦休息喝真奶排擠他 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4591.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4617.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
隔絕這個關鍵談判資訊也不給他然後專業被踐踏職責被推諉多次建言被忽視無視最後他積勞成疾想要請辭的時候連辭呈都不批啊直到他最後真的是住院的時候才寫下沉痛的離職書但是這些離職書跟這個匿名的爆料披露之後行政院發言人是表示過去未曾聽聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4618.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4635.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
但還是很遺憾很難過失去了一個很優秀的同事我跟你更新一個最新的資訊昨天王玉敏委員在總質詢的時候直接問卓院長什麼時候收到這個沉痛的離職信結果他回答2月19號當時他的同仁拿手機的內容給他看所以院長已閱讀同日信件寄達院長辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4645.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4653.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
以你現在了解的資訊你說行政院要負起調查責任請問你現在收到的日期是2月19日嗎因為他2月19日就收到簡訊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4656.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4683.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
各位委員報告這個各機關非因申訴而窒息到可能有這場霸凌的情形通常會需要一段的時間去瞭解一下因為它情況有很多種有包括是在媒體上面的爆料也有可能是社群媒體上的文章所以對於機關來說它就是有必要去了解一下它是不是屬於一個具體事實至少要做一個初步瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4684.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4695.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那至於在行政院在從成立調查小組之前的這段過程他們怎麼樣去進行的這個進程這可能要由行政院來說明可能會比較妥適那成立調查小組是什麼時候行政院要說明嗎人事處長副秘書長副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4715.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4734.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
跟委員報告我們在3月26號之夕的時候就成立了調查小組來做釐清事實的動作所以你們2月19收到這個離職信他裡面說他長期被忽視的時候你們還沒開始我們不知道你不知道對我不知道但是卓院長知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4736.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4758.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
昨天有回答王育民委員他是在2月19號的時候辦公室的幕僚轉資這個訊息給院長院長那時候是希望表達關心然後要請他好好休息因為請他好好養病接下來繼續為國服務但是那是在過年期間2月19號是在過年 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4761.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4785.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
然後過年完了以後的話我們緊接著就228連假再來再表示關心的時候3月初得知副總檯面廖友病情直轉直下大概院長昨天也講述了這個過程我們真正知道的時候是因為3月26號的那個Tweet的訊息出來以後我們才知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4785.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4802.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我跟你說你看這個時間序3月26號已經被披露他業務有長期的壓力你才知道對不對發言人表示過去未聽說但其實2月19你們收到他的離職簡訊的時候內容就跟26號是有點重複的我要跟委員強調的時候因為我們真的沒有沒有任何的公文完反的記錄那個純粹就是他傳給院長幕僚的簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4816.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4819.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
沒有公文 我們保訊會回來因為你剛剛講得很清楚嘛 你剛剛的意思是說當主管知悉的時候 可以先內部詢問一下是需要公文的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4833.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4851.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
公務員報告那個知曦可能有職場霸凌情勢的方式真的有很多種不一定是單純是可能是曾經信也有可能是社群媒體上面的發文好沒關係我希望保訊會處長今天可以把這個資訊帶回去因為全國的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4852.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4873.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
還有社會大眾都在看你們接下來的作為可不可以勿往勿縱剛剛我們從這個時間軸還有網路上的他同事是義憤填膺出來說覺得非常的不捨那在核對他之前就已經送給院長的簡訊內容其實他是早在知情的狀況下就代呼職守去不處理那 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4875.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4895.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
之後我們要看到保訓會的作為看是院長要負責還是副院長要負責還是秘書長要負責因為這個是行政院的霸凌世界根本就是對我們法律尊嚴的一個挑戰所以我也希望你現在找的外部專家可以公正客觀啟動調查最後我們要看到一個全民可以信服的報告好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4900.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4906.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們可能沒有那麼相信行政院的報告我是說請保訓會回答保訓會不會有報告啊好您說您說那我們針對這次調查的時候我們為了讓他公正客觀我們的調查委員都是外部委員沒有內部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4919.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4927.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那全國的公務員都在看今天的資訊他們也希望知道說最後的結果如何謝謝主席謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請邱惠如委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4941.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4948.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
主席還有各位委員同仁各位政府部門的同仁大家好我們有請勞動部長洪部長謝謝請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4958.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4987.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
邱委員好是部長好我今天呢是想跟你交流呢最低服務年限計違約金條款那我想問部長請問您知道其實我們醫療機構也好護理機構也好長照機構也好常常使出最低服務年限計違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由請問一下部長有掌握這件事嗎我知道那您對這件事目前的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4989.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5007.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這勞基法有相關的規定是勞基法規範在第15條之一那事實上部長覺得那相關的規定那您的看法呢這個有規定我們都知道但是您的看法當然法的規定就應該落實但確實它應該有一些相關的前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5008.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5037.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
相關前提我先跟部長建構一些基本的觀念就是我們護理人員他如果受僱於醫療機構也好長照機構也好護理機構也好那通常都跟醫院或者是護理長照機構簽訂一個不定期勞動契約那不定期勞動契約如果護理人員想離職那其實按照勞基法的規定其實只要預告僱主其實就可以離職了我想這個概念我想這個基本概念我們應該是都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5042.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5065.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
現在醫院因為大家也知道說那個護理人員荒非常嚴重所以這些機構其實很害怕護理人員離職所以他就會寄出一個最低服務年限寄違約金的條款來約束護理人員的自由那護理人員其實比較單純比較單純比較涉世未深他們就覺得說那我們簽了這個違約金條款我們如果想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5066.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5080.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
在這個條款所約定的期限以內離職例如說條款提到說護理人員你應該在機構任職兩年如果你期限戒之前離職的話你就會被科以違約金那我們護理人員比較單純比較涉事衛生他們就會覺得說那我們既然簽了違約金條款那我們真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5087.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5115.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
在期限戒之前我們真的做不下去所以想離職了那我們也只好為了求順利離職也只好認賠了事這樣子好那現在問題來了就是說既然剛剛部長也有認知說所謂的最低年限計違約金條款他規定在勞基法第15條之一您剛剛也提到說要用違約金條款來綁住勞工的離職自由是具有前提要件的那請問一下您有掌握是具備哪些前提要件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5116.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5123.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我想事務之一上面就是有寫到是就是你要有培訓然後跟培訓費用然後還有簽約金 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5124.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5144.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
其實我們可以比較有體系的來講這些概念你要用違約金條款來綁住勞工離職自由你的違約金條款必須經過兩個要件的檢驗第一個要件就是違約金條款要有必要性第二個要件就是違約金條款要具有合理性那所謂的必要性就是雇主要付出相當的訓練成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5146.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5174.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
然後把員工培訓成是一個不可或缺的人物然後勞工的驟然離職會造成雇主的損失這時候雇主的利益才有需要以違約金條款來保障的必要這個叫做必要性那第二個合理性就是說你約束勞工的離職自由的年限要跟你所付出的訓練成本兩個要相當如果不相當的話就不具有合理性這樣那如果不整合掌握這兩個概念我們來操作一個實際的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5177.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5191.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這個實際的判決就是護理人員簽了一個違約金條款他必須在這家醫院任職滿兩年那如果提前離職的話就要賠償違約金兩個月結果這個護理人員真的是水土不服坐不下去然後要離職了這樣子那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5193.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5216.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
院方他就提出了他們的訴求說你既然沒有做到兩年就離職那你要賠償我相當於兩個月薪水的違約金那我們來看一下院方怎麼主張院方他主張說我有對你進行新進人員的訓練課程那是這些兩年期的護理師的學習歷程那還有一些網路課程那又安排你去參加一些研習會跟研討會那請問一下我們剛有 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5220.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5246.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
操作過相關的定義了嘛你雇主必須是支付相當的訓練成本讓勞工成為不可替代的人選然後勞工的驟然離職會造成雇主的損失這時候勞工的利雇主的利益才有必要以違約金條款來約束好那以這個具體來是事實來看部長你覺得這個雇主這個醫院雇主的利益有必要以違約金條款來加以保障嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5249.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5272.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那個跟委員說明因為第一個我就目前你這個簡報的左邊的這些相關的課程因為當然我不是護理的專業所以我不是那麼清楚知道你現在列的這些相關的課程是在護理的專業裡面它是不是一個必要或者是它是一個什麼樣定性的相關的課程這可能我也要去找 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5272.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5296.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
課程一定是必要我們講的必要性是指說雇主的利益有沒有必要以違約金條款來約束課程一定是必要所以我的意思是說因為你剛剛列的你剛剛列的這些事情包括這課程包括雇主有沒有相關的支出它是不是一個最基本的就新到值的東西比方說它如果是最基本的法律要求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5297.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5305.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
跟還是說僱主也做更進一步額外進一步的培訓我自己不是護理的專業所以我比較沒有辦法從現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5308.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5335.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
其實部長你已經講到一個觀念了嘛它是不是一些必要的訓練例行性的訓練如果它是一個必要的訓練例行性的訓練那本來就是雇主你在經營一家醫院也好護理機構也好長照機構本來要負擔的基本的人事成本啊那本來就是雇主要負擔的那怎麼會把這個要負擔的基本的人事成本轉嫁在我們護理人員身上呢所以有沒有經過必要性的檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5336.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5361.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
部長可以再思考一下所以我說我這部分可能也要跟衛福部這邊來討論是這些課程的定性符不符合15-1他的前提的條件沒有問題那我也非常謝謝部長願意去跟衛福部來做一個專業上觀點的溝通那等一下馬上我們就會呈現司法的判決我們可以來聆聽法官對這件事怎麼看好那請問一下呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5363.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5378.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們接著來檢驗合理性那合理性當然定義已經有了嘛你付出這些新進人員的訓練成本然後去約束勞工兩年的離職自由那如果當中顯不相當例如說付出的錢非常的少 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5378.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5405.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
然後呢卻約束勞工兩年的離職自由那這樣會不會有顯不相當那如果顯不相當當然就不符合合理性那如果既不符合合理性又不符合必要性你用違約金條款來約束護理人員的自由那我想根據勞基法第15條之一這樣的違約金條款當然就是一個無效的條款來那部長請問一下你覺得這個違約金條款你目前看起來會是一個無效的違約金條款嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5409.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5426.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
一樣是有專業嗎我確實沒有對護理的專業這麼了解所以我很難我自己就下一個怎樣的判斷通常這可能會進到法院裡面沒有問題那我們來看一下法院的判決那部長再跟我們分享對於法官的這個判斷是否能夠認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5428.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5446.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那首先呢我們來講必要性的檢驗那法官就認為說這只是一個例行性的教育那不是為了這個特定的護理人員所製作並沒有額外的支出所謂的訓練成本而且有一些線上的課程這些課程其實都可以日後反覆的在使用其實這本來就是例行性的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5447.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5468.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那雇主負擔的成本其實是很低的那所以難以認為說醫院有付出龐大的訓練成本讓這個護理人員成為不可替代的人選所以他的作然離職其實是不會造成醫院的損失所以這時候雇主的利益就沒有必要用違約金條款來保障這是必要性的檢驗法院的看法那第二個合理性的看法就是說這個訓練的費用其實都只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5471.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5494.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
一般的例行性的訓練新進人員的訓練那你用這些例行性的訓練來約束護理人員兩年的離職自由然後他沒有達到兩年提前離職你又要科與他付一個違約金的義務這個兩個權衡之下顯不相當所以當然也沒有符合合理性所以這個案件最後就是違約金條款無效那既然違約金條款無效當然護理人員就不用賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5495.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5519.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
但是回歸到我們的食物層面護理人員設施衛生也很單純那某個程度也是勞動教育的概念沒有非常的普及跟扎實所以他們為了順利的離職所以他們就認賠了事那部長對這件事的看法如何不知道勞動部這邊可以多做一些什麼事嗎跟委員說沒有其實我們之前有在跟衛福部在討論是不是對於一些醫療業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5520.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5538.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
工作的現場包括他的人員有沒有可能其實跟衛福一起來合作那有更多這個關於勞動法規教育的機會包括宣導那讓大家其實能夠在這個法的框架下面能夠更加落實法尊 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5539.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5555.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以當然這是一個明確的判決那部長能夠認同嗎認為說這是例行性的訓練然後雇主的利益沒有必要用違約金條款來保障這個法院的判決就是判決我自己是認為說我們其實應該因為確實有很多法規的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5557.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5583.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
包括行政的處理其實都會看法院的判決來作為一個重要的參考點所以我是說在這樣一個明確的法院的判決之下我想我們願意來跟衛夫婦來討論就是說是不是在怎麼樣狀況之下透過一個大家怎麼進一步的作為其實能夠讓法尊能夠更加落實那部長我想請問一下像這些濫用違約金條款的這個雇主啊請問勞基法相關的處罰是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5585.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5602.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
保安委員這條文老計法並沒有罰是老計法對於這條並沒有罰則那沒有罰則會有一個現象不公平的現象什麼現象呢如果護理人員傻傻的笨笨的陪下去醫院多賺到了一筆十萬塊的違約金如果護理人員不從的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5603.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5632.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
其實醫院沒有拿到他本來應該拿到的違約金他其實也沒有損失那濫用違約金條款的雇主等於他沒有成本啊他違法他濫用這種手段來約束護理人員約束護理人員的自由還讓護理人員平白無故從口袋掏出這個違約金條款反正成功了多賺一筆沒成功了也沒有損失但是這個濫用違約金條款雇主卻完全沒有成本所以我在這邊想要請教部長您是否覺得應該來建議一些法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5633.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5660.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
才能夠讓濫用違約金的僱主有一些這個成本要付出啊我覺得法規的討論當然法規要不要做更進一步優化我覺得這部分當然都可以來討論啦來看實際上面的需求但是我覺得就目前來看的話我自己還是比較希望是說大家針對包括是尤其是主管機關尤其很多醫院其實也是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5661.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5682.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
相關的事業單位主管機關管轄之內部長我先跟您分享一下不管要不要修法我們都應該進一步有一些進一步的作為那您進一步作為是除了做勞動教育因為剛剛有提到勞動教育這個措施是很明確的日後想要來深化那請問一下還有哪一些作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5686.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5708.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
跟委員報告現在地方政府有時候去勞檢的時候他們有時候在醫院勞檢他們有時候也會去問所以或許我們也可以提醒地方政府將來做一些專案勞檢或申訴勞檢順便去查一下他們提醒抽查幾位護理人員有沒有簽署這樣的一個條款然後去提醒業者這樣的約定是不是有預言無法 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5708.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5727.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
提醒其實就很像沒有牙齒的老虎而且可能不是沒有牙齒的老虎根本是小貓咪一隻完全沒有嚇阻的效力那我先分享一下我的做法本辦呢已經在大概一個月前就提出說要去修正勞基法79條把濫用違約金條款的雇主呢作為79條裁罰的標的之一就是如果你濫用違約金條款就會處2萬元以上10萬元以下罰款那也許這個方向是不是可以帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5737.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5746.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
勞動部帶回去研議那我接著再講第二件事情第二件事情就是說衛福部有出一個這個規則叫做醫療機構護理人員勞動契約建議應記載跟不得記載事項那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5753.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5781.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所謂的因記載跟不得記載事項裡頭有羅列了一些項目就是說醫院你跟護理人員簽訂勞動契約哪一些東西應該記載上去那我這邊建議如果既然沒有罰則既然沒有罰則是不是過渡期的做法當然我們日後希望有罰則過渡期的做法可不可以在這個因記載跟不得記載的這份文件裡頭要求要放入一個事項什麼事項呢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5782.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5803.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
醫院或者是機構所為的例行性訓練或者是應該負擔的訓練成本不能夠作為雇主求償違約金的基礎可以嗎第一個這個應該是衛福部當然我知道這是衛福部這是邱文達時期如果我沒有記錯是他弄出來的一個記載因記載會不得記載事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5805.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5816.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我想我們願意配合然後來提供我們的意見那我覺得勞動部如果這邊願意支持這樣的一個建議的話當然我們有勞動部長的一個建議我們也許好好的可以去跟政府部來溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5818.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5836.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以您同意嗎我們現在最後來做一個總結就是說本辦想請你們提供資料但是其實沒有裁罰資料那我知道其實治安署的署長他上次有來我辦公室拜會他提到說雖然沒有裁罰資料但有一些輔導的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5838.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5867.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
把一些醫院濫用違約金條款沒有裁罰但有輔導的資料可不可以送到本辦一個月內提供讓我們了解現在實務上到底濫用違約金條款的現象是如何這是第一件事那當然第二個就是說這個應記載跟不得記載事項能不能記載說例行性的或者是院方應該負擔的這個基本的雇主的訓練成本不能夠作為求償違約金的一個條款您剛也表示可以了嘛就是站在法尊的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5868.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5886.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
當然啊法組長我們全台灣大家不是都依法行政嗎我想我們的政府也對於依法行政這四個字非常的崇尚所以我也是樂觀其成那當然另外一個就是建立裁罰機制那我請部長不要這麼快的否決帶回去研議一下思考一下那有什麼難處我們再互相來交流來討論這樣子那謝謝部長謝謝部長的支持跟這個協助謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5893.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5913.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好 謝謝邱副委員的質詢接下來請邱政軍委員在此宣告待會蘇志全委員質詢完畢後休息十分鐘主席好我們請一下洪部長好 邀請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5929.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5942.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這個我看到我們4月13號即將上路的這個家事移工新制那乍看之下是好事可是我突然仔細想想可是裡面好像很多的問題我在這邊請教我們部長我們決定這個開出一張144萬人的這個空投支票 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5950.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5975.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那先讓我們的家長認為說有便宜的勞動力可以用那至於人從哪裡來勞動部好像也沒說明我們現在目前只管把這個門檻拆掉然後引發這個洗工潮讓原本照顧老人的看護都跑去照顧小孩那至於以後小孩怎麼長大台灣保母會不會失業那長照體系會不會崩盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5977.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5992.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
不是勞動部要關心的問題數據好看比較重要那我看到衛福部的報告他承認我們承認這個國家一起養這個小孩子這個牛皮吹破了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5993.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6017.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
既然公托蓋不夠 本國保母又太貴那我們決定棄守專業照護的底線反正只要把這批移工定義為家務幫傭而非專業保母未來家裡出事就不歸衛福部管我們只負責發幾份數位教材 求個新安至於144萬個小孩的成長品質跟本土托育產業的崩潰 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6019.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6034.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那是家庭的私事與市場的競爭請大家自求多福那從這兩份書面報告我們可以看到政府的政策現在已經簡化到只要有人看小孩讓大人去工廠或辦公室上班就是成功的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6035.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6061.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
至於小孩照顧得好不好那本國保母有沒有飯吃國家這個養了這個政策是否名存實亡在4月1號的報告裡面都沒有看到具體的解決方案那我先請教衛福部你們現在這個定調勞動政策說家務幫庸不涉及專業托育請教一下你有沒有去過任何一個家裡有小孩同時又請了移工的家庭你看過他們的真實生活嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6062.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6085.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
在你們這種表格化的腦袋裡世界是切開來的這一欄是移工的廚房洗碗煮飯掃地這叫勞動部的勞動政策另一欄是小孩在哭在爬要換尿布這叫衛福部的社政業務但現實生活中這兩件事是分開的只要家裡有小孩移工的手隨時都會觸碰到那我再請問就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6088.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6098.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
在這個萬一這個事情成真之後我們這個144萬個家庭當中如果發生了嚴重移工裂銅的案件這是屬於誰要負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6104.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6118.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我還是再重申一次委員剛剛所說的我覺得可能會有一些些小小偏頗我必須要跟委員報告所有這些政策其實基本上大概都是一攬子的一個政策對於這些部分我們有津貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6120.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6143.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們有公托我們也需要給家長時間這是現在目前全世界在推行有關於這個對育兒家庭最重要事實上就是有這些綜合的政策公司我請問衛福部衛福部對本土的保姆當初的要求是要受訓要訪視要進行考核因為衛福部說要專業嘛對不對要管得到我們這個也即使現在針對這144萬的家庭如果引進外籍幫佣你說這個部分你怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6148.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6174.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
包委員這兩個並不是互相替代的啊這互相是補充的這不是互相替代是互相是補充的那他不會照顧到小孩嗎那你請你給這些家庭請這些外勞的用意是什麼包委員我們現在目前容我在他不會你請過來請過來你現在是年齡限制12歲以下嘛對不對包委員讓我再簡單說明一下我們現在目前對家庭照顧有三個層次一個叫teacher |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6175.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6202.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
第二個呢是有關baby sister另外第三個叫housekeeper這三個是不一樣的但是三個不一樣其實大家每一個家庭你一個家庭他有辦法處理這麼多人嗎他有辦法這樣有辦法消化嗎因為他領的錢他有辦法去做這麼多的事情嗎包委所以我們現在每一個家庭都有不同的階段都有他們不同的需求所以我覺得這裡面事實上是我們應該要有一個比較重要性的那我請問這些幫傭他能不能照顧小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6205.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6224.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這些外勞 外勞 外勞報告委員喔 讓我再重複一下我就這樣問嘛 他如果能夠照顧小孩 那是不是就要照你的規定外勞工作內容大概有幾個部分嘛 是房舍清理嘛 食物烹調 但是家庭成員他也要照顧他的起居所以他當然 請這個當然是子女啊對 他要不要領保母證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6229.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6244.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
他是邦庸,所以他跟保姆是不一樣的所以我剛剛就講,一個housekeeper,一個failure setter你怎麼去界定這個事情我這樣講,因為外勞請到家裡你怎麼去限制他說,這個不能碰,那個不能碰你懂我意思嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6246.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6267.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
其實現在大家對保姆的專業期待很高,比方說他的健康照顧,甚至是他的發展的支持,就是小孩的早期發展的引導,甚至也包括一些輕職上面的顧問,或者是輕職上面的協助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6267.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6288.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
當然這些事情都是現在專業保姆裡面被期待賦予的一些專業的角色這些工作當然是外籍幫傭無法做的啊對啦我現在要講的就是說我發現的問題點所以提醒你們我現在是提醒你們你們要把這個事情釐清把它做得清楚一點寫得清楚一點就像我部長我還再請教就像你現在講話我再問你一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6291.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6299.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是說我們今天的這項政策是要讓家長安心去工作嘛提高我們的勞動力對吧那邏輯上申請人應該都要在職場對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6301.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6323.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我沒有看到我們要申請的時候我只看到要戶口名簿、要申請表、身障罕見證明、罕病證明那你們沒有寫說這兩個人的在職證明或者是勞保紀錄吧你們也要提供嗎我們第一個其實的確現在大部分來跟我們要求希望來申請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6324.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6339.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
絕大部分的確都是雙性家庭這是確定的但你沒有限制啊可是你沒寫清楚啊我們的資格的條件就是現在就是以12歲以下的小孩現在就是報告上沒寫嘛我現在提醒你 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6341.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6364.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
對 我就舉例啦我們基本上就是一個家庭家裡他是這個收出工媽媽是專業貴婦兩個名下財產過億如果沒有工作需求他就可以天天遊山玩水那家裡有一個10歲以下的小孩子他就可以生錢嘛 對不對那如果這樣對我們的這個提高的勞動力好像一點幫助都沒有啊你懂我意思嗎第一個我還是要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6366.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6382.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們剛剛在講到其實現在絕大多數來表達希望申請的確都是雙薪家庭那這個雙薪家庭他有他在工作跟家務分配上面這樣的需求你們的出發點是對的那我剛剛提醒你的時候你沒有剛剛沒有限制這個項目的時候你這個這個所謂的這個增加勞動的這個政策啊會變成富人管家的補助計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6395.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6409.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
其實你在兩年前你也要求我們要研議開放我覺得是好事啊請我們研議要開放邦庸啊對對對我沒有反對我現在不是反對我的意思是說你們的規則你們的審查資格都沒有寫清楚你懂我意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6414.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6433.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
原本是三個小孩六歲以下這的確在現代的家庭結構裡面是過度嚴格的所以我們希望能夠把它放寬那在這個放寬的過程裡面第一個我們針對如果是弱勢比方說如果家長是生長或者是小孩的狀況是早療或者是發展遲緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6435.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6459.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
包括這些東西我們都做了優先的配套的設計時間沒很多啦我其實我是支持這個政策但是我希望你們把這個政策的規則寫清楚不要到時候搞得亂七八糟的我們會把配套做好那再來我想請部長請回我想請這個行政院理副秘書長人總我們的理處長保訓會蔡處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6466.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6484.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我先請教你們三位就是代表我們台灣公務體系最核心的人事與法治單位那我先請教您你們在過去的公務生涯當中有沒有親自擔任過職場霸凌小組的調查委員或親自撰寫過這個霸凌案的這個認定報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6488.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6512.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
有沒有去擔任過?跟委員報告,我擔任過調查委員,但是我沒有寫過調查報告對,因為我看到你們,你們有講到就是說現在行政院是外聘四個嘛,對不對?外聘四個調查委員那我請教一下,這四個裡面是誰在做主?還是行政院另外有派人? |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6514.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6527.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
跟委員報告那這一次的調查小組的話我們四位都是外聘委員那沒有內部委員沒有內部委員那誰為主導呢誰為主導啊如果他們四個調查回來兩個說有問題兩個又說沒有那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6533.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6554.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
調查小組是四個人他會分工共同調查但是出那個報告的話是四個人共同出一份報告沒有出四份報告那他們如果四個人在講四個人都講不好怎麼辦四個人他們自己內部會有開會那他們會協調出共同的結論會討論出一個共同的結論那你們就會照做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6560.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6586.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們會照做嗎你們會照他們的報告做嗎因為這一次就是為了要公正跟客觀嘛為了要釐清事實的真相所以我們自己的內部委員是沒有介入調查的那對於他的報告我們當然會信任跟尊重啊對啊我不希望說這四個大家調查到後來然後沒有一個結論到時候又不了了之啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6587.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6615.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
不會那到時候誰要介入是你們介入還是誰介入他是這樣的他的過程中的話現在由調查小組先去調查那調查完以後會出一份調查報告出稿那這個要多久你們現在調查要多久依照規定的時限是兩個月必要可以延長一個月但是院長昨天已經宣示了我們會盡量在規定兩個月的期限內完成報告好那我們就靜待報告了好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6618.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6631.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
謝謝邱政軍委員的質詢接下來請蘇清泉委員質詢重新宣告待會劉建國委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6634.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6650.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好 謝謝主席 我請行政院副秘書長好 請副秘書長好 還有李建德次長李建德次長還有人事處的陳崑源好 人事處我也好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6652.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6679.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
副局長你是事務官事務官所以你是公務體系幾乎最高的嘛是那你對公務人員有沒有疼惜的心我們自己是公務體系的人員我們對公務人員當然會有疼惜的心啊你不要像政務官拍拍屁股就走人啦所以沒在插插你們會怎麼樣來我今天要問的是我們公務人員的體檢一般有3500跟4500對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6683.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6709.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那比較高強度的,譬如說錦霄、海巡、空巡、台鐵司機,這裡特別要講台鐵司機,那這個就是一年一次,其他兩年一次嘛。三千五到四千五啦,副院長你知不知道?知!知!那三千五要做什麼檢查?是要去量身高體重、抽抽血那樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6711.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6733.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我的印象裡面這幾年我們已經人事總署這部分已經逐年逐年在調整我參考日本的公務體系他們是非常的嚴謹金額也很高體檢完之後如果有紅字有不正常的他們就會再追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6734.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6761.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那我們這邊是三千五、四千五,你自己找便宜,放股吃草,人流跌倒出來,怎樣也不能追蹤。我覺得這一塊比不上勞保,我們勞動部在我們洪部長的這個柔韌之下,我們就是事業單位大家都很怕命,還有什麼職安護理師、職安什麼師什麼師, |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6764.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6786.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
貼圖出來又有問題 追耶 一直追所以我在想 我們這個國務卿館 每次都要試 課要拍情緒又吃雞 每次都要用早餐每次都要出事情 我是覺得這個你們要好好的思考至少參考日本一下嘛 如果沒有就叫勞動部來給我們支得嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6788.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6795.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我覺得公務人員我沒有預測將來考公務人員高考的人會越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6805.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6826.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
會越來越少你看看今年的大學那個第一階段現在已經可以收到84%今年要收的大學的入企新生他占了84%然後各位看到那些AI的電子的全部都在前面很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6827.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6839.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那你做公務人員,或什麼將來想,我看很快公務人員他們站到了,就要自己提撥,我看那個條件越來越差那你自己當副秘書長,你就要想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6841.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6865.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們衛福部的理事長,你站在醫療界的角度,這樣一宗體檢,做一個Low dose的CT就要四千塊,你用三千塊,你真的是要叫他去喝咖啡,增高體重量一量,抽抽血,敢要這樣而已,一些Straight check啦,一些心血管的check,你看我怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6868.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6892.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
國務委員我其實我是來衛福部學習啦 也來委員學習嘛我是覺得 委員你所關心的 我覺得是真的啦 我們公務人員真的這麼辛苦 我想這個 都可以來研究啦 謝謝所有公務人員都是國家 國家是雇主那你用這種心態 應付應付的 然後一天到晚再出事 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6894.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6900.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
尤其是精神上的壓力的好像今天太多人在講這個霸凌的事情一件接一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6901.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6927.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那都是精神壓力,那個比獅子的壓力還大所以我覺得我們行政單位還有我們行政院一定要做分別考量你最高的文官你可以一年是一萬六嘛跟比照立委嘛,可以保留一年兩年一起做所以比較做高檢要很實際的,很實際的真的是抓到重點不然的話對這些公務人員是不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6928.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6942.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
真的不公平,那我今天不講那個霸凌,霸凌講太多了,沒有意思啦,健康好不好,我看到太多的警察,心機更塞我在屏東就看到好幾個,連屏東選舉委員會的主秘也是暴斃,猝死,怕死人 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6950.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6976.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以我都說他們那是無形的壓力啦所以那如果又加上人委去跟他那個,那更不得了所以怎麼衛部跟蕾絲總署這邊看看有沒有一個formula你要做基本的檢測做心血管的做癌症指數的種種做金額要大幅提高為了三千四、四千四、四千五,要請四人 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6979.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6993.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們勞保的公司好像有的都加得很高,自己加嘛這個是員工最大的資產你們沒有把你們的員工當作資產,我覺得我一點都沒有感受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6999.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7014.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我們謝謝委員提醒了我們公務員健康檢查這個機制的相關問題這個議題對我們所有的公務員其實是非常重要的那我們原先的時候也是從零開始然後慢慢逐步逐步的建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7014.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7034.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那目前委員對於這個金額部分呢就是一般年齡還沒到了同仁的時候三千五、四千五這個金額的部分的時候有所關心嘛那會後的話我們會把這個議題帶回去我們會請人事總署的時候跟有關機關一起來研議一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7035.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7052.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好,就是壓力檢查,stress check,再來就是吸血管,再來就是精神過勞好不好好,研究一下,我給各位來對好,謝謝,我們請回,請回那我們請第二個提問,我請部長,洪部長我請主委,請主委來等一下啦,你去選館長啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7064.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7075.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
來你現在這個12歲以下你跟美賴總統跟你的最原始的想法我想是不是因為我們台灣的女性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7077.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7084.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
像我們醫院的夫妻都是臨床醫師啦像我辦公室的助理也是這樣啊他們都是雙薪所以我說你用這個12歲以下我覺得非常好啊非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7103.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7108.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
非常好 講三次你們的起心是怎麼樣起心動念是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7110.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7134.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
其實這個政策當然他是我們也在面對現在的家庭結構跟過去其實不同所以過去的家庭的型態會有比較多長輩的後援那現在比較少那現在雙薪家庭也是主流所以我們最大的政策的目的就是希望能夠讓很多的這個雙薪家庭勞工朋友其實可以安心的工作然後家庭可以減壓這是最重要的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7134.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7156.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
像我們醫院有,我講一個例子,夫妻都是臨床醫師然後一個小孩是七歲,一個是三歲那早上就會送到學校嘛,國小一個國小一個在小班嘛那下午下課,哇完蛋了,幾位狗跳,沒人去接孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7157.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7180.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以就請家庭的幫傭,就是下午來上班接小孩然後給他準備晚餐,然後家裡的一些幫傭的事情事實上他們沒有在照顧小孩,他們是把他接回來,先哭謝謝,看一頓飯吃然後爸爸媽媽有可能七點八點,有可能九點才回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7181.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7210.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為有時候要開刀啊什麼的所以這個他找台灣的幫傭不好找耶在高雄很貴耶夜間比較尤其是晚上特別困難到爸爸媽媽回來之後他就下班了對 晚上的部分特別難找從四點到八點多九點那所以這個幫傭 外籍幫傭進來我覺得是非常有需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7211.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7232.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那你以前是六歲以下三個,那不可能的事啦他有可能六歲以下生三個,他不肖的他有可能,所以你現在這個,這樣是很好而且現在外籍的移工,大家都在搶人欸條件要過好唯一的就是一個要繳五千塊的救安基金,先過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7235.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7253.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這個救安費當然原本就是五千塊啦但是我們有針對如果有特殊家庭或者是家長有身障那或者是家裡的照顧需求特別高的比方說小孩如果有兩個小孩其中一個是六歲以下的話都可以把五千塊降到兩千塊那不是有殘障的有什麼有問題的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7256.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7279.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對,就是說家長單親或者是生長,假設有生長的話那他可能特別辛苦,我們希望降低他的負擔,把他的救援費減下來我覺得如果這家庭很辛苦的,或者是有真的殘障的,是不是不收也可以啦兩千塊,你是要兩千塊,老大不聽好話就,家大業大 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7281.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7307.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我爸爸也是一宿一宿我們大概都會有一個分層次的市長市長你聽到沒有?對啊,殘障還要更多的社區滿有人太大壓力了這個大家都在為市委委員會打拚尤其我們女性的勞動力我再講一次素質都很高、學歷都很高、能力都很強這些人擋在家裡我是覺得可惜啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7308.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7325.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所以這個來補充而且是真的有需要所以你這個政策我給你肯定在野黨肯定你 你要拍手加油 謝謝好 謝謝蘇清泉委員接下來請劉建平委員接選好 謝謝主席二位理事 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7336.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7352.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
你不用上來 你待我事情一個禮拜再不處理我就請這個主席來拍專報再不行 我就直接拜託主席直接到你們那個衛務部去考察好 謝謝來 接下來請部長好 有請黃部長君如細言 小心一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7361.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7389.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
部長 我們農政部推的在你主政之下育嬰假的這個新制嘛那女性的申請率從原本的72.2降為到55.6看圖表那這個少了16.6的這樣的一個成績雖然是一個突破但還是有56.6的女性能有請育嬰假的這樣的需求顯示照顧的兒童的責任還是以女性為主嘛這個不為過嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7390.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7410.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
然後主計總署跟衛護部的統計近年婦女層因為結婚而離子的主因以被孕或懷孕為最大中將近快40%左右2023年這個媒體又做出相關的報導台灣女性就有33萬人因為要照顧家庭而退出勞動市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7411.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7428.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他怎麼統計怎麼基礎然後年齡到幾歲這個就要你們這邊來做相關的這樣的一個調查評估不過33萬在對照那一次在這邊提出職選的時候一年流失了13萬3左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7429.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7447.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
顯然這個數據越看是越恐怖但是基本基礎這個有時間再做討論所以是不論是育嬰假還是今天召委安排的這個專報我想都是要解決照顧離子的問題讓女性可以安心續留讓台灣的女性勞工可以安心續留 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7448.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7477.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們是不是要對比你對外勞的安心續留的相關的因應這個措施跟這樣的一個政策是不是要有所做一些處理了不管是身為孕女的方式有十種類別的這樣的一個勞動的一個情況他可能就有十種的選擇一定會有孕婦或母親選擇離開職場在一段的時間內全身心的來專心帶孕或陪伴孩子的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7478.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7496.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
但也或許就是這一段時間的陪伴當小孩進入小學或中學時女性就應該能夠重回職場但部長可以看這張圖表這是從台灣、日本、南韓、新加坡、美國、瑞典這個圖表部長可以看台灣的這個曲線圖就長得就特別不一樣它到了77點應該是這麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7506.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7532.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
在高點是89.9然後就每況愈下然後到了最後是到26這個地方這個這個曲線跟你在對照南韓南韓還有一年他是往上升的往上升的那其他各國他都是他是維持穩定的一段時間可能平均都還要有在應該是81到86左右他可能到 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7533.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7557.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
到近幾年它才是最來勢的這樣下跌這個區間圖給部長做一個參考我提供這個表是說從30歲就直直往下掉底下還有歲數的一個標誌然後對比其他國家30歲雖然各國也都有明顯往下降的趨勢但是40歲左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7558.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7581.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
都好像還會再回升一下會再回升然後以南冷為例剛剛特別提到就曲線最明顯連鄰近的日本也是這個樣子所以政府希望女性不用照顧兒離子但這群離子的女性願意重回職長時那應該是整個國家社會求之不得的一個勞動力對不對那怎麼台灣反而是回不去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7583.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7585.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所以勞動部在規劃婦女再就業計畫從112年到9月1號到今年的8月31號為止鼓勵婦女自主訓練精進原有職能訓練完成並辦理求職登記就發給2萬的獎金如果訓練完成180內經推介 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7603.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7628.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
推介就業或自行就業者再發給一萬元也就是成功的訓練完成並在180天內完成就業的再就業的婦女就可以拿到三萬元這是一個好的政策啦這是一個好的政策那是怎麼還會這個最危險的下降然後剛剛對照圖表台灣女性30歲之後就難以再回到職場所以我覺得這三萬塊是不是不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7630.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7633.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為今年8月31號就要結束了白宮部會再升級婦女債就業2.0嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7635.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7664.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
根本說明其實我們近期其實是如火如荼在討論跟研議針對這個婦女在就業計劃要有一個升級版那在講的原因也是剛才就像委員剛才說的我們的確看到臺灣的這個二度就業婦女重回職場的比率相比於其他的國家其實還是是比較偏低的所以看起來我們的確可能在一些條件上面會需要更加的放寬或者力道也要加大這是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7665.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7671.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
接下來我想應該近期就會來跟外界報告自主訓練獎勵啦從原有的3萬你們是2加1啦2萬加1萬嘛對不對然後有沒有機會變成4加2 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7678.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7705.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就變成到6萬跟我們說明確實我們在考慮剛剛原本是2加1嘛那接下來我們也在思考是不是加碼到就是委員講的這個數字就4加2嘛對好不好我們就朝這個方向來努力了我們來努力我們願意我願意朝這個數字來努力這個應該一個月內可以來做決定吧我希望更快我們不只是鼓勵這個我們所有的婦女的就業2.0就他們的這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7708.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7720.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
可以回到職場再持續的來貢獻這樣一個勞動力除此之外鼓勵勞工我們也要鼓勵企業嘛那你們企業是這樣除了獎勵婦女在就業外針對這些聘用在就業的企業勞動部也給予一個月職缺是3000塊每月3000塊的獎勵啦最長是12個月嘛對不對那也讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7728.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7751.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這些鼓勵在配合我們的政策的這些企業老東部是不是也一併要加碼跟委員說的確因為除了錢以外我們也在檢討他的一些機制啦那這個機制裡面我們也看到其實很多二度就業的父母他都重回職場他有他在工時上面的期待跟需求比方說他會比較希望他的工時不一定是那麼長 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7752.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7777.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那或者是有些工時因人而異的調整的空間所以我們的確也在研議就是說如果企業願意來協助這個二路就二的婦女在做工時的調整或相關的支持措施的話那我們也會加碼這個獎勵金這部分也是我們在規劃研議的其中一個重要的部分就是等於婦女在就業的2.0版針對女性勞工也針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7778.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7799.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
願意配合的這些企業我剛才講的部分就給企業企業願意給予勞工彈性跟工時的一些調整的機制我們就願意支持企業好那我們就4月底前了啦4月底是OK就已經答應了是沒問題不要是因為今天是4月1號謝謝來再來我們再看請部長看勞工職場尊嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7801.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7817.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
2024的一個屏東地院的判決等一下再看到2025的一個宜蘭的判決這罵星巴克的員工智障然後你奧克在用冰拿鐵去破臉然後標罵 做標罵兩分鐘的王插蛋還有怒罵店員XX娘 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7820.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7848.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
挨告後或判無罪法官說妨礙名譽非彰化罪台灣什麼時候有彰化罪我不太懂就是罵彰化不等同於應該是講說罵彰化不等同於妨礙不等同於妨礙名譽的罪責這個是下面我就不再追溯了他說這個人雖然罵了勞工之後口出惡言但妨礙名譽非彰化所以如果因此判有罪法院會變成什麼道德糾察隊也就是過度干涉個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7849.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7866.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
干涉被告個人羞恿介入干涉被告個人羞恿或言行品味的私的領域這已遠離該罪的正當的保護目的我實在不太清楚這是什麼樣的一個說辭那部長有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7868.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7883.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
如果按照這個敘述的話其實這當然已經是可能是有這個不法侵害職場不法侵害的狀況了有不法侵害的狀況嘛對不對好那應該像這樣的一個消費者像這樣的一個顧客應該受到什麼樣的懲處什麼樣的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7887.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7899.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
跟委員報告 在治安法裡面目前是要求僱主要對勞工可能遭受不法侵害採取預防的措施採取預防的措施 現在發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7900.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7917.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
然後我們的勞工去告了這個罵他的對象那法院又就這樣處理不是只有這一案還有依然一案依然入罵超商店員就王插蛋什麼東西法官以認定為是公然侮辱這兩個20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7923.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7950.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
店內當時沒有其他人縱使這個言語過於粗鄙令人心生不快但冒犯及影響程度尚屬輕微最多算是修養欠佳剛剛那個講道德這個講修養因不足以貶損女店員的社會名譽或名譽人格那你們現在處理方式在我們職安法的處理方式還是針對雇主嘛對不對最近這一案怎麼處理統一那個職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7952.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7972.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
怎麼處理各位說明因為相關的法源因為斬法的整部法的這個施行的邏輯裡面最重要其實就是刻意部署的責任那當然如果對顧客的部分但這部分可能就會進入到司法司法的處理跟判決我今天就是要跟部長討論這個事情如果針對針對勞工受到顧客 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7977.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8000.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
不當的傷害的情況之下那我們的職安法裡面只有針對像這個僱主來做是不是有教育訓練是不是有防暴力的指引就是防範的責任對啦 防範的責任好 他都有做了啊假設他都有做了然後這個勞工又被傷害了然後又到法院去訴諸 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8002.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8017.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這樣的一個法律訴訟的情況之下又被法官做這樣的一個判決無罪的判決那你覺得我們這個治安法是不是有輸入之處還是有修正的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8020.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8038.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我引用這兩個例子跟引用統一的這個例子你們最終還是去做這樣的處理當然你必須要做這樣的處理是不是有教育訓練是不是有環抱相關的指引如果沒有就是告發了嘛對不對那勞工被傷害了勞工被傷害的回復正義誰來幫助他們來主張誰來幫他們回復 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8042.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8067.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
跟各位說明因為職安法整部法它設計的原意就是在處理職場裡面因為職場的指揮或權力關係所造成的傷害所以整個職安法它其實比較絕大部分的對象就是科與僱主相關的責任這是職安法的邏輯對可是現在因為現在遇到的是員工跟顧客員工跟消費者之間第三者的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8068.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8082.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
他其實就這個消費者跟員工之間他可能就不是一個雇主跟員工之間的這樣子從屬或指揮的關係下的確會有些部分不容易用責任法去規範到所以就必須回到我們其他的也許刑事法規上面去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8083.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8102.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
但是現在就是我跟部長提起的這兩個案件基本上那個受傷受暴力對待受言語暴力對待的勞工通通沒有辦法在法院得到正義上的彰顯嘛所以我才會回到未完委員會來垂詢部長我們該不該面對這個問題該不該來幫助這些在職場上受到傷害的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8113.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8133.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這一塊已經碰壁了對不對那這一塊你們處理就是針對僱主那受傷勞工他要找誰能不能大家冷靜來思考這件事情這個事情層出不窮啊訴出懷孕又無解啊然後又做出這樣的解釋啊那要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8136.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8154.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
跟委員報告現在在我們這一次的治安法的修法也有提到這個要調查跟處理他雖然是外部的一個人員那我們認為說在後續事情發生後僱主應該還是要提供有關於剛剛法律的一個協助還有心理諮商的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8156.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8170.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
諮詢協助這個是在我們法上可以要求僱主來做的法律的協助我不曉得這兩個案例這個僱主有沒有協助即便有協助判決就這樣對不對即便有協助判決就這樣那僱主有協助啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8173.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8190.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那個委員我覺得我們可能的確會需要比方說也許需要跟法務部來討論一些相關是不是有在怎麼樣來協助像這樣子案例的更進一步的可能我懂委員的意思啦就是說既有的法規確實是有些受限在這樣的案例裡面有些受限 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8192.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8210.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們針對醫護人員在急診的暴力我們也經過好幾年的討論然後節節的提高相關的這樣的一個法則然後對應的方法那勞工的磁場何嘗不是他在職業中遇到的暴力的傷害不管言語不管是行為對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8212.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8230.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那我們怎麼沒有去思考所以委員我覺得我們真的我想針對不法侵害的概念尤其是如果這樣幾個幾個這個判例或者是案例出來我認為我們可以綜合在思考說是不是有些地方可以再再更多強化有更多的保護不過的確這個可能我們我覺得可能要找法務部這邊大家來做一些討論這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8231.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8251.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
對啦,我們不應該說醫事人員在執行這個業務的時候遇到的相關的一些暴力我們就有相關的規範、法則去作為處理護理也是勞工的對象啊他們在衛務部這邊就有這樣的一個處置啊那整體各類別的勞工遇到職場上在執業的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8253.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8267.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
受到這樣的不可侵賴言語行為相關的暴力然後訴諸法律求助無門的情況之下那我們只是針對雇主去說你有沒有做教育訓練你有沒有做相關的一些職業如果沒有我就跟你告發那對那個勞工情何以堪是 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8269.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8288.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我想我們來正視這個問題啦好不好也請部長一個月內可以吧來研擬相關的營運措施保護勞工在職業過程中不應該再受到這樣的一個傷害啦好 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員的發言謝謝侯生漢部長現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8892.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8912.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好 現在開始開會繼續開會現在請王業民委員質詢謝謝主席 我們先請行政院副秘書長 李副秘書長請副秘書長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8920.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8939.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
副秘書長好今天委員會排葬的專案其中很關切的就是有關於霸凌的議題那這一個大家都很痛心委員會新副代表他這個去世的消息那大家也想要知道真相那昨天我在院會質詢的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8941.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8969.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
其實就有直接問院長那這個昨天楊珍妮代表她沒有上台接受質詢但是她有跟媒體說她跟副代表這個生前互動是良好的但是隨即呢昨天下午就有顏慧欣的友人出來說顏慧欣從3月12號去世到3月29號骨灰入塔 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8970.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8992.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個楊真理代表連一通慰問電話都沒有我想請教李副秘書長就行政院掌握到的情況是這樣子嗎各位報告這個部分我們沒有獲得訊息所以你們也不清楚我們不清楚那行政院有派人去關心嗎慰問家屬也不清楚這個不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9000.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9020.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個我覺得行政院你們掌握能力好像也太弱了吧這個事情發生到現在你今天要來委員會那畢竟這個顏慧欣是副代表也是一個很重要的職務那發生這樣子的事情我覺得行政院總該有人實際去關心慰問一下吧結果你今天來委員會你們都不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9020.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9044.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
不過如同昨天委員執行院長的時候院長當下接到幕僚的訊息的時候他就有表達他的關心但我是說從知道他3月12號就是去世到3月29號中間行政院都沒有派人再去慰問跟關心家屬這個部分我們不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9045.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9063.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
完全不清楚那你們就是完全沒有掌握我想這件事情外界這麼關心就是我們希望我們公務人員在公務體系裡面大家得到都是一個友善的職場那如果連顏惠欣這麼高職務的一個副代表他可能都會來自上級長官的一個霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9064.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9076.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
然後抑鬱難生我覺得這件事情真的是值得大家來關注那今天我就要問就是事實上根據你們的公務人員執行安全及衛生的防護辦法裡面第35條這個保訊會在報告裡面也寫得非常清楚當你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9084.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9095.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
知道職場霸凌的情況不一定要申訴就是你們其實是可以採取一些調查的行動的這個是在今天的報告裡面有講到那我就要問副秘書長這一條有在落實嗎如果以顏慧欣的個案事實上她在辭職信裡面就提到這個會被嚴厲的訓斥這樣的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9107.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9125.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那看起來這個也沒有處理第二件其實是於大雷案我昨天其實也問了這個院長那是在我一再的逼問底下院長才指示說希望外交部可以去了解那之前外交部是不想了解的他說沒有人透過正式的申訴管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9126.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9148.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
他說沒有這一案媒體報導的這麼清楚但是外交部的回應是說因為沒有正式投訴所以他就採取不告不理就是沒有申訴人所以他就當作沒有發生但是按照你們的這個辦法裡面你們35條你們是可以主動去調查的那為什麼之前外交部這樣的一個態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9150.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9172.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這個我們行政院沒有主動去要求他應該要先去了解啊包括這20名的這個清潔工還有這個外交人員這個被當工友使喚等等這些情況你們應該是可以要求外交部要主動了解為什麼也沒做這個動作是我昨天質詢才要求院長應該要這樣子下指令的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9174.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9191.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個是屬於外交部的權責但是辦法裡面講他們也是公務人員35條不是說你們可以主動去掌握就我們行政院院本部的那個防治作業要點裡面的話我們對於知悉的話我們是會下去釐清事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9191.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9204.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
對啊那報紙都已經報成這樣了不是知悉了嗎所以我們3月26號知悉以後呢我們就馬上成立調查小組要去釐清事實外交部這件案子嗎不是我們院本部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9206.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9221.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
外交部是外交部要去處理的所以你們院本部也26號有立案然後是針對這個余大雷這個案子不是不是余大雷案子不會到院本部來他是外交部的執掌 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9222.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9244.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我知道那如果這樣子的話就變成說如果外交部駐外單位發生任何霸凌的事件他就是話外之地因為行政院管不著所以再怎麼嚴重那就是尊重外交部就是他沒有一個更上級的單位可以往上申訴行政院也不是那是總統府嗎是總統的職權這個就是我看到看起來是有漏洞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9245.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9272.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
昨天是因為在行政院院會我質詢院長院長也認為說應該要處理那要不然本來外交部次長他是覺得就是沒有人沒有人透過政治管道甚至說他是沒有要受理的耶那如果未來再發生類似這樣的一個案件請問怎麼辦這是不是漏洞那你整個行政院你要不要去檢討不可能我們駐外單位就是話外之地啊派駐到那邊也都是我們公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9273.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9288.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那他們發生一些職場霸凌的事件如果外交部官官相互他採取不告不理他完全就是說因為你不敢具名啊你沒有正式申訴啊我就當作沒有發生那恐怕會更嚴重這怎麼辦 副秘書長這個我們在現在的那個規定裡面的話對於知悉的部分的時候他是要下去釐清事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9300.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9316.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那你的35條有沒有有沒有範圍有沒有到我們這一些駐外單位有啊所以我剛剛講像于大雷案你們就可以啊你們就可以要求外交部要去了解你不是還是上解督導單位還是說外交部現在不歸你們只歸總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9317.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9325.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
不是外交部他自己有外交部的我知道但是他做的不好啊他被動啊他消極啊那這個時候怎麼辦這個就是我要跟你講的現在這個這個勞動部在我們的監督底下他現在提出來的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9334.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9351.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
他是可以有更上層的單位就是說這個原單位企業他若不受理的話他可以跟公部門投訴但是你公部門我就問你外交部不受理的時候怎麼辦可以跟行政院投訴嗎還是跟總統府投訴你的機制你的更上位的那一個監督機制到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9355.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9376.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我覺得這個是個漏洞喔副秘書長我希望你們回去之後你們要把這個洞補起來啊現在看起來就是這樣子啊你都尊重原單位我就問你原單位如果沒有受理或他受理不公那請問他還有再再上一層的機制嗎有嗎可以上到哪裡不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9384.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9407.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這個會後我們會再去釐清一下好我要求這個部分的洞應該要補起來不可以有這樣子的一個情況既然我們之前發生了這一些霸凌的案件我們覺得應該要做好那當時是勞動部是勞動部這邊的修法但是公務人員這邊你們也說你們要好好來修法要來落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9408.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9431.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那現在顯然我覺得你們現在的辦法裡面還是有漏洞我希望這一塊要補起來這個就是我講的現在我們在勞動部裡面就是他可以地方勞工局投訴然後外部第三方強制的介入但是我們現在公部門裡面沒有更上層的單位這個應該要做另外一個我要問你的是這一個小組的審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9432.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9440.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
剛剛也有委員提到了我們現在以楊蕙心這個案為例現在已經有四個外部的委員就是來做調查對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9442.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9466.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那第一個是誰來督導這件事情讓他可以更完整我昨天也跟院長講了第一個我要求的是這個涉及到霸凌的當事人他要不要調理限職因為他如果這個主管他是最高主管目前還在這個職務上面他沒有暫時調理限職請問他整個辦公室他以下他所掌管的人員有人敢講真話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9468.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9490.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
會不會就是礙於這樣的一個壓力他都還在這個位置上誰講馬上就被發現然後對他的保護其實是不周全你們有沒有考慮過這樣的一個問題你要讓調查還原真相涉及霸凌的當事人主管是不是需要暫時請假或調離限制讓這個調查可以更深入 複民長你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9491.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9510.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
跟委員報告因為我們現在的外部委員正在調查嘛是那協助我們把事實釐清那我們會依照調查的結果還有防護委員會的審議決議的話來處理我知道我要告訴你的是調查結果能不能還原真相 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9511.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9535.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
在於他能不能接觸到這一些跟事件相關的人而這一些事件相關的人他會不會有來自上級的壓力他可不可以有一個好的保護然後他敢把事實真相完全說出來大家都還記得當時勞動部的霸凌案的時候第一次的報告是霸凌案不成立的有沒有調查 有有沒有還原事實 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9536.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9556.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以這個就是關鍵後來我記得洪澄漢部長還說他設了一個信箱所有的人就是可以指到他那邊就是完全不會洩露出去那我不知道公務部門你們這邊行政院的做法是什麼可不可以真的保護到吹哨者要不然有調查但是會變成沒真相 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9556.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9579.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
因為你調查到的不是最核心最敢講真話或是礙於事實壓力你的這個調查報告可能就只是流於形式沒有還原真相那我具體建議一個是剛剛講的涉及霸凌的主管你要讓他暫時調離限制這是一個建議第二個是所有的包括像楊蕙心個案她的友人這個爆料者 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9580.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9600.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
你怎麼樣想方設法讓他們願意講出最真實的真相這些調查委員有沒有接觸到他們還有包括現在被指涉的楊真理他之前他服務過的包括國貿局跟他互動的單位包括外交部擴大調查範圍這是必要的這個也是去稀釋不要讓當事人你只調查少數人這少數人的壓力就很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9603.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9610.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
你調查多一點人的時候就是他可以免除那個直接被指涉的壓力這個是在調查過程當中要蠻細膩的我不知道你們有沒有考慮這些如果這些你們沒有很仔細的一個去討論跟執行的話將來的調查報告恐怕會不符合就是大家的期待家屬可能也覺得沒有還原真相這個你們可以做到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9627.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9645.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
個人報告剛剛委員講的這些點的話我們回去的話都會提供給我們的調查小組委員讓他做審議的參考現在這整個是誰在主導因為還有更上位的小組審議誰是主持人是副秘書長嗎還是誰我們審議委員會的話有12個委員外務委員 主席是秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9655.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9677.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
是秘書長擔任主席嘛對不對但是我們之前會前的時候也有在開會因為他自己是北美協調委員會的小組委員他會自請迴避所以你是主席自請迴避完以後我們會委員互推代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9677.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9698.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好 這個主席也很重要就是一定要很客觀的來審理所有的事實家屬需要真相 社會也需要真相那你們預計多久可以完成我昨天跟院長說希望一個月之內可以完成調查你們可以加快嗎我們規定是兩個月院長昨天也跟委員承諾我們會盡速的來完成但是我們不會刻意說拜託委員趕在一個月之內完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9703.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9715.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我知道但是要加速好不好而且那個主要要接觸到真的知道真相的而且讓他願意講出事實這個才是關鍵好不好還原事實的真相最重要對好謝謝那你先請回我請那個勞動部我們洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9718.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9737.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
就是公安的問題 我很快的要幫我們這些從事演藝工作的臨演來請命因為我們看到現在這些臨演可能是我們現在安全網的破洞這個有調查 這個也是來自你們自己的調查52%從業者因公負傷 只有0.7%申請災保的給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9744.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9765.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那最近爆發的這個案件呢他劇組從來沒有幫他保勞保或災保所以這樣一個情況等於是這是舊的數據最舊的 那最新的有改善嗎這是災保法之前的數據那你們現在更新的數據你告訴本席來對 但是這是確定這是災保法之前的那最新的你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9767.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9779.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
最近我們可能要再找一下可是目前的狀況因為災保法通過以後後來通過請工會協助然後等等等他的機制大概就不是這個數據了那為什麼這個臨演還是沒有災報 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9785.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9811.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
當然這個個案的狀況是可以檢討可是我說數據本身這不是現況的數據好啊 那你就告訴本席最新的數據對 那我覺得我們再來看一下有沒有最新的數據的話我再提供這樣好不好好 我要指出來是這邊還是有人沒有受到保障他的職業安全沒有受到保護特別是過去我們可能真的比較忽略臨時演員這一塊那因為有爆發這樣的一個事件我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9811.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9831.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
你們可以好好的去改善這樣的一個現象那我這邊有三個建議我覺得這一些影視的這個臨時的演員勞工也不應該被拋棄他們還是應該要被好好照顧那第一個你們可不可以做到要求這一些臨演要百分之百投保這個職業災害保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9833.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9860.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
其實雖然他是臨演但是他還是可以請領的他還是可以請領的沒有投保的情況底下也可以請領跟委員報告只要他是受雇勞工是具有雇傭關係的他到職他就他是承攬他不是雇傭臨演現在被發現他只有承攬他不是雇傭這個個案是雇傭關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9862.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9883.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個是你們後來查到是雇傭是不是所以他是可以的根本說明這個案子發生之後我自己親自也主動找李遠部長那我們也針對目前對於這個影視圈的這個我們有指引嘛但我們也看到指引裡面其實確實有些不足沒有落實所以有指引裡面有不足之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9884.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9910.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那也有一些部分在部分的比方說拍電視劇的部分特別不容易多好那我具體問你啦職業這個安全衛生自動檢查表要不要事先審查你們開會討論完之後需不需要他們現在是不用送的要不要要不要送審讓主管機關審核覺得你這個有做到因為有很多是爆破啊高空跳啊就是都是一些設計比較危險的那你們現在其實是沒有這個部分應該是會送影視局啦對 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9913.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9935.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
要嘛這是送隱私局會有一個自主檢查表對但是他們的那個對於職安的意識我們現在比較希望的方向是針對一些高風險的拍攝行為對那這些高風險的拍攝行為我們現在正在跟隱私局討論是不是應該想要設計一個這個在前端事前通報的機制所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9936.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9947.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
不只是這個安全衛生的部分尤其特別針對高風險的部分我們應該提前先掌握那這部分正在跟影視局還有跟業界那目前正在針對這個機制的討論正在討論中所以還沒有討論出來現在正在討論 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9951.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9976.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
好這個部分我要求你們要趕快討論出來這個的確是過去大家都會忽略大家看戲看得很過癮但是從來沒有好好去思考這些領演他在承受這些高風險的時候我們國家的制度政府的制度有沒有事先有一個比較強制性的要求跟檢核去確保他在那個過程當中的安全其實這個部分真的是被忽略其實我們的確看到這裡面政府會有一定的責任所以我們也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9978.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10004.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
文化部在討論包括我們相對應的這些記錄其實都變成是應該變成文化部在補助的時候判斷的依據你們多久這個新的機制可以研議出來你們的目標跟委員報告其實目前在配合子安法裡面的附屬法規也有把這個部分放進來所以我們應該是會在六月底把這個法案做法所以會做修法會做母法的修正然後再做配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10005.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10030.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這是隨著去年底職安法修法以後我們也希望把這一塊考慮進來放到附屬法規裡面所以應該我今天剛有說我們希望7月1號其實職安法的部分可以就附屬法規經過預告以後可以上路啦所以7月1號可以上路對我們希望是7月1號好我們希望在這一塊就是要補足就是我們去照顧到這些臨演他們的工作職業的安全好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10033.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10056.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
謝謝王衍明委員的發言 接下來請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席 那我們先請這個我們行政院的副秘書長 李副秘書長有請李副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10063.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10089.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你好李副秘好我想從這次的顏惠欣的個案我想大家都非常關心所以我想要先請教一下這個請問這個特任官顏惠欣副總談判代表是前年的5月底上任嘛5月底上任嘛對不對那請問她上任的人是不是因為談判辦公室的作業疏失導致她被延誤兩個星期才上任 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10094.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10107.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
有嗎你不曉得沒關係你曉得就說曉得不曉得就說不曉得這個這個訊息我們我們你不曉得好那請問一下李副我這個編制上副總談判代表有沒有專任的秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10110.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10133.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
但是以下的問題都是你知道就說知道不知道就說不知道沒關係因為他是台美會的主任委員那他是兼任副總談判的代表所以基本上我們是應該是沒有配秘書的沒有專任秘書那他第一天上班就被拋銷這件事情行政院有沒有掌握這個我們不清楚我們是看到媒體媒體報導才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10135.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10160.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好,那再來呢,我想要請教一下李副秘書長,特仁館的顏慧欣副總談判代表是何時開始請病假的?不知道?去年9月的時候,就不細細。好,那請問一下他在這個今年2月19號,是大年初三的時候,在病榻前寫的這個辭職信,請問一下行政院是何時收到這封辭職信的? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10161.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10182.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那請問卓院長有沒有交辦這件事情?跟委員報告,那卓院長昨天回答王育敏委員的質詢的時候呢那他是有這樣子說啦,說他2月19號的時候呢那嚴副總有把這個訊息傳給行政院那個院長室的幕僚那幕僚有把這個訊息給院長看 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10183.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10203.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那院長對他表達關心,但是也希望他好好休息休息好以後,病好以後,能夠繼續為國來效力所以換言之是沒有處理這個實質性?我們不知道你不知道就回答不知道沒關係,我就是在釐清一些問題而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10206.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10219.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以這個我想要請教一下那今年的2月23是年後上班的第一天那到了3月12號這個嚴副總代表他辭世請問你們有什麼中間有什麼任何的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10223.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10250 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
沒有不曉得因為我們根本不知道這個訊息所以其實我想要表達的就是今天的報告說行政院是3月26號才開始啟動調查嘛對不對那也就是說在3月24號的這種霸凌案被揭露之後被媒體揭露之後被媒體逼出來之後才在兩天的時間說要開始有動作所以這就是凸顯出從這個個案凸顯出 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10252.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10259.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
整個行政的失靈然後也凸顯出行政院的一個冷漠無作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10261.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10285.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
跟委員報告因為這過了很這個看起來這時間過了非常的久啊然後也是被媒體揭露之後才開始兩天的時間才開始說好那我們要來啟動調查我們事實上也是3月26號看到那個Tree的報導的時候他那個詳細的揭露那些事情的時候我們知悉這件事情我們馬上就組成那個專案小組要來釐清事實對所以你不覺得這裡面哪裡疏漏了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10292.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10301.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為我們是真的3月26號才知道的所以你這樣的講法就會讓這個我們覺得說那行政院長明明就知道了2月19號就知道了怎麼過了這麼多這麼久的時間沒有交辦沒有去請 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10306.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10328.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個下面的去相關了解這個案情的事情好等到媒體報了之後才匆匆的說我們趕快來調查這就是我今天想要從這個個案推出來讓大家覺得說哇這個很很嘩然喔讓社會嘩然怎麼會行政院長自己本身已經知道這件事情居然沒有請責成下下面的人去了解去關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10329.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10342.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這就是現在大家在討論一個這個時間點的問題所以這部分我想要再進一步從這個個案推到這個系統性的問題我想要再請這個保訓會的處長保訓會處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10357.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10369.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好 我想要請問兩位就是你們可以看是誰的執掌來負責回答所以首先我想要請教根據你們的114年度的職場霸凌防治執行的情形調查表 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10370.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10395.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就是更深入探討了霸凌行為的層級關係跟行為樣態那表上呢也有顯示這個此項調查是自114年的7月1日到12月31日指對不對然後要求各機關詳實記錄所有受理的情形那這個統計的框架不僅包含了案件數啦也更深入的這個探討了霸凌行為的層級關係行為樣態那你們最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10398.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10406.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
要求的截止通報日是3月31號那今天是4月1號是不是想必你們資料是已經有收集完成了對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10410.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10430.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
各位委員報告這個部分因為還有少數的主管機關他還在彙整中像是一些縣市政府因為他下面所有機關其實很多那所以我們有已經在31號的時候我們另外有在行文去催請大家所以等於是說你本來說3月31號要要求這些資料回來還很多人沒有繳回來是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10430.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10450.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
一部分 並沒有很多就一部分是不是因為其實我們就是我本席也有在上週就有跟相關的單位包含人事總書有去索資喔那目前我是沒有得到回應所以我這邊想要請教喔第一個就是根據你們目前為止的資料喔你們統計的案件數前三名的部會是哪幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10454.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10477.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
目前我們收到了其實還不齊全我們後續在整個整體收完之後我們還要再做進一步通所以目前還不知道是好所以你也沒辦法評估說哪三個是案件比較多的是好那再來第二個問題就是職場霸凌的申訴數量總共是多少結案數是多少你現在等於也沒辦法回答是 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10477.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10501.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那再來第三個我想要了解的事情是職場霸凌申訴後霸凌者這個處分的份件數有幾件你們也沒有現在也都沒有有沒有初步的數據也都沒有這部分可能都得要等三月份的這一份那我剛剛問的這三個問題就是我本席想要希望你們等這個資料回來之後提供給本席辦公室讓我們了解好不好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10502.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10530.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
因為這份表格其實我覺得是相對相關是蠻完整的我希望你們可以盡快到時候去識別化之後也定期的公佈那我也想要提醒這個表格其實明確的也有規定說114年的7月1日前所有的案件數均不記錄所以事實上你們到現在還沒有辦法完全的拿到這些資料我也很好奇喔因為這個明明就已經這段時間已經很久了並不是說這個中間持續增加的還要他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10532.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10544.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
還要他們再補上去所以你也給了很多時間了這個部分要請你落實去追蹤要求相關的部會誰還沒有交回來的哪一些地方政府還沒交回來的你要趕快去跟他們要求好不好是好那再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10547.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10574.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我想要 最後我也想要詢問 監察院有指出這個許多的機關的人事處在接收到霸凌陳情的時候常常為了顧及長官的顏面將其歸類為一般申訴導致案情沒有辦法進入法定的防護小組甚至也有報導指出這個經濟部的技術司案中即便有監察院的報告背書內部仍然會傳出說抓吹哨者的這個風聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10577.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10588.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那這也反映出來我們公共機關其實在這個文化裡面對於異議的聲音極度的不耐受導致內部修正機制完全失靈請問這件事要怎麼改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10590.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10617.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
各位委員報告依照這個公務人員保障法跟安慰辦法的規定其實各機關對於提出這場霸凌申訴的人都不能給予不利對待或不合理的處分那相對於這件事情其實在保障法跟安慰辦法上路之後保訓會也陸續的到各個機關去做宣導跟教育然後我跟你說有一個很根本的問題就是你可以看到這個通報制度其實是有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10617.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10626.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
有很多基層的公務員向本辦公室反映他說現場現在的這個職場霸凌案件通報平台你要給不是要給他自然人憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10627.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10655.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
就是要健保卡但但事實上也根本沒有人敢實名的使用啊對不對那這部分你要怎麼你要怎麼處理跟委員報告依照我們安慰辦法的規定提出職場霸凌申訴其實本來就應該要具名申訴的嗯也是避免說機關可能被少數的這個不當的爆料或者是不實的指控而導致整個行政作業上面是但是但是也是發生了這個問題嘛所以就是第一線也分是發生了所謂的實名通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10657.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10661.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
會讓人家不敢通報那你這部分你有什麼改善的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10662.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10689.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
是那以目前來說我們都是要求各機關在收到職場霸凌申訴的時候都要在10天內去決定是否要受理同時他應該要通報上級機關那如果機關違反這樣的規定依照保障法沒有啊你這個規定都是一樣我懂你要表達的就是說你的規定依照這樣走可是現在就是發生了這個事嘛就是說他不敢通報嘛因為他怕通報上去他會知道說他通報了誰然後去指控他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10690.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10716.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
上級以後有不利對待他以後可能會被會被這個針對所以剛剛也有委員提到之前洪宣安部長就說不然你就直接直接寄到我的信箱我來直接來處理那請問你們現在這個部分你有什麼精進的想法或是作為因為大家就不信任這個還是你可以跟他們說請大家放心你這個你這個你這個東西到我這裡來絕對不會外洩外洩了會發生什麼事你這部分有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10718.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10747.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
承諾或者是怎麼改善嗎跟委員報告其實我們現在目前也在建置資產霸凌的申訴平台那這個平台建置之後其實所有的人他都可以以他的自然人憑證或者是健保卡直接在我們的平台上面做申訴那申訴之後他的案件就會記錄在那個平台上那你申訴完了之後上級機關也會收到你申訴完之後你要怎麼確保這件事情這樣或者是你要再去宣導說跟這些這個相關的公務部門的同仁說 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10747.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10770.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
你去用這個自然人憑證或是你用健保卡你來了我怎麼用保密機制讓你確保你的這個身份不會外洩不會被你的相關的直屬長官知道這個部分你們會怎麼做是這當然就關系到我們後續這個系統怎麼建制那以及我們也會對於那些可以使用這套系統的人的權限也會做劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10770.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10787.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那你要怎麼做 你現在有具體一點系統上 原則上啦 機關在看到這筆申訴案的時候其實他只會接收到有一筆申訴案 可是他不會去讀到就是讀到他實際上的申訴內容你說誰會拿到他有一筆申訴案 你說長官會說他被申訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10792.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10812.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
機關通常都會有一個職場霸凌的申訴窗口那那個窗口的負責人我們就會給他一個權限讓他可以定期的去看一下那個系統上是不是有職場霸凌的申訴案那他看到那個申訴案之後他就可以知道是申訴人跟被申訴人但是他沒有辦法見到實際上的具體內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10813.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10834.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
申訴人跟被申訴人就是最大的問題啦不是嗎如果他在同一個機關裡你的譬如說我舉個例子啦就是我們紅部長假設你有一個司長他去申訴了然後到了這個部會裡面然後這個窗口知道說這個紅部長你被某司長申訴囉那這樣子不就會造成了他們不敢申報的原因嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10835.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10850.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這不就是現在我提出來的問題嗎就算是現在用書面上做申訴那個申訴的窗口他一定要知道是誰被誰申訴嘛那他才能再往後續把整個案件提交到防護委員會去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10851.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10865.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以你這個勿填這個機制會不會發生我剛剛說的這個問題就是申訴的從一個單位裡面的這個窗口他收到有申訴案了那知道某長官被某下屬這個申訴了那這個事情就可能會在那個機關單位傳出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10867.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10888.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那傳出去之後大家就更不敢去申訴這件事所以我剛剛說從個案我們來檢討整個系統的問題這個系統現在是有問題的我是不是可以請你們回去把我的意見帶回去你們到底要怎麼做到不管是匿名匿名申報也好或者是你要用一個機制去告訴這些人說我這個絕對不會洩漏或者是洩漏了之後這個人要負什麼責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10890.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10908.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個部分你們是不是可以回去檢討然後給本席一個具體的方案可以跟委員報告依照我們安慰辦法的規定本來調查小組跟所有參與這項調查整個程序過程的人都具有保密義務所以你說這個所以你這個窗口本身就是也不能夠有透露 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10908.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10938.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那他如果透露了之後他會有什麼責任當然會違反安慰辦法的規定那同時他可能也有公務人員考積法公務員服務法的相關追究好那你就要去好好的宣傳你給本席一個修改的建議修正的建議之後你也必須去各個單位機關跟這些公務人員跟他們掛保證說你要跟他說這件事情你去申訴了你用證人憑證申訴了你去實名申訴了你絕對不會有得到不利對待是 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10939.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10943.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
是不是 你要去做這件事那接下來我要請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10953.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10980.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
來 部長好我想要請教一下有關公安和老安的部分那依照勞動檢查法的第五條這個由中央主管機關設勞動檢查機構或授權直轄市主管機關或有關機關專設勞動檢查機構辦理之 對不對那授權之勞動檢查依法依本法啦 因依本法有關的規定辦理並受中央主管機關之指揮和 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10982.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10984.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
監督你們確實是有監督的權責對嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10988.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11010.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
好那根據這個你們在2025年的7月8號也有個新聞稿你們明確的定義說多次發生災害勞動檢查的機構也就是你們的職安署或與地方政府應該要擴大停工範圍並加嚴復工審查那是不是這樣子是那也顯見勞動部具有監督的責任對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11013.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11030.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
本來就有對本來就有好那我就想要請教一下因為衛科在高雄有某特定的建案那它已經屬於定類的危險性工作場所那麼它在2024年的3月2024年3月的時候有發生板模坍塌 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11031.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11041.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
而且在2025年的11月4日又發生這個工人高樓墜落死亡意外那其實已經符合你們所謂的多次發生災害的範疇那依照你們的規定應該要擴大停工範圍加強稽查那麼為何又在2026年呢他1月11號又發生了第三起 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11053.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11074.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
工地高處天降鐵板的意外然後你們在兩天內就有予以復工不管是你或地方政府有予以復工所以導致最後在兩個月後在2026年的3月24號第四度發生天降鋼板的意外砸死人這個時候就砸死人所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11076.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11102.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這兩年內發生這個公安意外兩人死亡那你們治安署去年的督導考評中有沒有針對這個高雄勞檢處的復工審查流程提出過糾正或者是警告或者對於這兩年這四起反覆造災的這個高風險的工地中央有沒有啟動過任何專案督導或是書面要求或是復工的這個流程的檢視或考評的扣分 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11104.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11130.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
跟委員報告我們確實在停復工要點去年有修正那我們的認定還是職業災害就職業 職安法裡面所定義的職業災害那剛剛委員提到的這些案件就我們所知有部分的案件經過這個法官法醫或是檢察官他認定不是因工作引起的那就不會回到我們剛剛提到的這個這個停復工要點因為我們認定是職業災害 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11131.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11158.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
如果最近這一切是失業者還沒有錯好這個等一下我們會回來講我覺得這個是有一個流程上會有會發生問題喔所以其實你們也有說這個設施不良造災其他相同的處要全面檢討改善可是明明在這個部分1月11號你就有發生這個天降鋼板嘛對不對那後來讓它復工了復工了之後所以導致有人然後後來再次天降這個鋼筋砸壞兩台車一個小時之後再這個砸死人所以這個東西你剛剛這樣子歸類是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11160.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11172.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
反而是沒有好好的去檢查他如果譬如說他已經掉下來你沒有砸到人這個工地他掉下來一個危險物品沒砸到人然後你就沒有去要求他或者是說示警他那 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11173.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11200.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這只是剛好那裡沒有人而已嘛對吧第一個我們其實在去年下半年提出的減災計畫裡面其實也有一個是會針對高質災跟高危違規的這個監管的計畫那我想在這些相關的案件裡面我們都會來跟高雄市勞檢處來瞭解一下包括也跟他們在瞭解有沒有大家可以互相協助然後能夠把這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11201.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11220.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這樣子的一個公檢的案其實你們兩方不管是高雄市政府或者是你所以這次到底是要誰負這個督導的責任監督的責任當然這是高雄市勞檢處他要來進行這些這個相關的檢查的業務但是這個高雄市勞檢處當然也跟中央的部分也會有一些互相可以互相協助的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11221.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11249.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以你要互相協助他但是這樣看起來是高雄市勞檢處沒有好好的去去檢討這方程流程嗎我沒有這樣子我沒有這樣因為政策當然是中央我們訂定的政策所以不管是減災計畫或者是剛才說強化停復工的計畫這都是中央提出來的可是我們當然也有義務來協助地方政府的檢查機構來照著這個政策的方向盡量的來落實所以我們也有這個部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11249.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11263.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以你有沒有去檢討說他現在這個流程裡面到底他的檢查哪裡出了問題所以我說在這幾個案例裡面當然也有剛剛林組長說的裡面有部分的計畫他在檢查官的認定裡面他並不是職災也有這樣的部分可是我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11264.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11278.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
呃有職災的尤其是重大職災的案例的發生就是大家不樂見的我們都願意來跟相關的地方政府的檢查機構來多做一點關心跟了解來協助請問一下那你們有沒有依照你們頒布的這個職場檢災計畫你剛剛一直提到對這個案件同類樣態進行抽查啦或是複合你們有做這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11285.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11302.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
跟委員報告我們確實在去年下半年我們也有頒布一個高違規高職災的監管計畫那我們會就這個個案我們會要求高公司勞檢處是不是有符合我們的規範應該要列入這個所謂的列管的一個工地 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11303.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11319.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
對所以簡單來講我聽到現在你好像沒有去監督或是督導他們有沒有依照你們訂新的這個停工跟復工的要點去確實落實說他有沒有依照這個新規則去執行不是各位我們定期性或年度的考評 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11320.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11344.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
都有都有但是這個在執行上不可能每一個個案這個但是我們會假設這樣的案件我們會每個月去從我們的系統上去看對嘛它是屬於高違規所以你們有系統可以去看嘛我們所有的檢查都要進到我們中央的系統所以你們有個通報平台有你們有個通報平台對不對好那我想要請教一下你說你每個月去看那這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11346.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11365.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
不是每個月去看那個現場不是 我知道 就是這個通報平台嘛你們就是要透過通報平台才知道有沒有發生這件事 對嗎你們現在是要這樣嗎是 他如果有剛剛委員提到的被檢查 被罰還 被停工在我們的紀錄都會看到那如果是屬於我們列管的那我們就要提高檢查頻率還有提高罰還金額那這個案件有被通報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11366.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11391.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個案件一定通報一定有通報是不是一定有通報一定有通報嗎所以那這個部分勞檢單位可能他有介入嗎勞檢單位依照我們剛剛委員提到勞檢法跟相關的法規程序規範都會去做勞檢對都要去做勞檢所以你這個案子應該會有所以在通報平台上應該也要會有當然當然確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11393.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11421.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我想要 所以我就想要問喔 但是我有去查齁我去查 這個是零筆 零筆資料欸我查不到這一件事情欸我上網去查 我根本查不到這件事啊甚至我也去看他的地圖 根本沒有這個案件啊那個 第一個公開網的部分 當然會跟我們他還通報的這個資訊系統不一定一樣 但我們可以來看一下就是說所以你說 那你如果不一樣的話 那你又何必 又需要這個網站呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11423.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11449.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我跟你講我去你們重大職災公開網這個案件是一筆資料都沒有啊一筆資料都沒有那個他的關鍵字不一定是用凹子底啦好那再往下我沒有關鍵字沒有凹子底那我去看的地圖也沒有這個案件再往下再往下有個圖片好我有去看你們的公開的地圖地圖上也沒有這個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11454.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11482.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
跟委員報告那整個只要經過我們檢查報告書經過我們中央核定以後他資料就要上傳那這個個案是不是我們會後把提供完整資料給委員所以你們就是有督導的疏失嘛所以因為你這個資料我根本完全查不到這件事情如果剛剛委員這個案子他剛發生剛發生 實在報告書要一到兩個月我們整個責任都釐清以後我們才允許他上去對 是這個部分那你這一到兩個月這個工地你們要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11484.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11502.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
委員你把好幾件事情全部混在一起了第一個事情是資訊流的通報跟揭露這件事情他有他在這個職災上面責任認定的程序必須把這些相關責任認定的程序給走完他才能夠確認這筆資料相關的資料是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11502.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11523.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
他才會放到相關的資訊公開的部分這是一個部分但是那個工地現場該怎麼處理這也會有一套系統所以這是不同的事情你把它好幾件事情沒有所以我剛剛是幫你開開來講所以我的問題也是問另外一件事就是說那這段時間因為我們最終我們要講的事情叫做你有沒有落實督導有沒有有沒有發生說你看他明明就掉了東西下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11524.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11538.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
然後呢因為沒有及時的去用嚴格的監督的管理規則讓他復工結果隔了兩個月之後又掉下來我就要表達的事情是你第一次發生的時候是剛好下面沒有人那你第二次發生的時候就砸到人了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11539.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11554.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以我現在要說的事情是說針對這個案例我想我們會請治安署來跟高雄市勞檢處針對這個案子目前處理到什麼樣子的程序來做一個更深入的瞭解因為這的確是地方政府的勞檢檢察機構在處理我們會來瞭解那我們會來跟他確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11558.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11583.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
他有沒有按照去年我們頒布的相關的這個政策跟機制來去處理我們會來跟他確認這件事情但他的確在這個案例上面也會有他要走的流程他的走的流程到目前 按照剛剛的承諾的話他到現在不一定這個流程你剛剛有說中央地方都有各自的責任然後他表達說你們的督導責任包含不管這個資訊的問題或者是他有沒有依照你們新規則去逐一的去執行落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11584.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11606.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這件事情是你們的督導責任然後再來就是你們地方政府上面他有沒有落實做這件事情所以我要表達的是你這個公安和勞安其實你在這個個案你就可以發現說一個很奇妙的地方他第一次砸下來之後只是剛好沒有人那後面呢你很快的復工之後好大概兩個月後你如果沒有落實檢查這些要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11607.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11631.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他再砸下來的時候 剛好下面有人 哇那就一個工人就這樣子過世了這個狀況的發生都是我們不樂見的情況我們都不樂見 所以我們願意跟地方政府我們願意跟地方政府來加強這部分的督導我想這部分我們願意跟地方政府來做所以我想要跟你說的事情是第一個你們好像不願意承認你們在資訊流上面請你們回去檢討一下然後給本席辦公室檢討的報告為什麼我去查 查不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11632.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11648.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
然後有四起我會說過去這個工地就有四起可是我在網站上是一筆都查不到但是你剛剛在質詢前面又跟我說你們都有落實登記所以這件事情本席希望會後給本席辦公室一個通報我還是要再強調這個案件他一定會有通報但通報以後他 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11649.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11677.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他去處理的程序會要走到一定處理的程序以後他才會放上一個公開揭露的系統因為如果他沒有走完一個一定處理的程序的時候他放上公開揭露的系統他的資訊不一定是完整跟正確的所以公開揭露的部分跟內部的通報這是兩件事情那我想要請問一下前面有一個53歲工人他在之前就有意外墜樓也很久了也很久以前那為什麼他還是沒有上你們這個公開系統呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11678.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11695.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這我們來...剛剛有說明齁那個公開網是職業災害因為工作而引起的如果這個個案就目前我們了解它不是跟工作有相關性所以它不是職業災害就是不能...不是職業就不是在我的平台去公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11695.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11714.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以你的意思就是這就是我們剛剛講的就是這兩件事情你可能要去看一下這件事情它要怎麼在資訊上面串起來因為不管是公安或是這個職災我覺得這個東西你們要去想一下這個流程上第一階段發生了這個事你們要嚴格的去要求不要再發生坍塌 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11715.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11744.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
掉下來 這個是不是要特別示警至少這個案例我們會重點來關注那過去 剛才講的你剛才應該是講你現在投影片上面的第二起事件是後來檢察官認定他不是職業災害他是他新陰性的原因對好 你看著這個 好 OK但是我還是要講在天降鐵板這兩個關係所以我說我們願意重點來關注請你們這個會後之後再提供給本席辦公室為什麼我的質疑的點好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11745.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11754.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好 謝謝廖小雄委員的諮詢本會收到臨時提案進行處理我們現在處理臨時提案既有疑案請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11758.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11785.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
衛生福利部已明確布達醫事人員完成繼續教育積分授訓時間屬工作時間雇主應給予工價為今日仍有醫事人員反映醫院沒有給予工價為維護醫事人員勞動權已請勞動部將醫事人員完成繼續教育積分授訓時間屬工作時間雇主應給予工價納入醫療專案勞檢項目並請於一個月內提出書面報告與立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案委員邱慧如邱振鈞陳金輝宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11787.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11809.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
請問本案行政單位有意見報告主席能不能麻煩在倒數第二行再加三個字請勞動部將醫事人員依法應完成繼續教育積分之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11810.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11825.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
再加三個字就好了依法應完成繼續教育積分授訊時間屬工作時間就加三個字就可以好 黃部長我想我們這邊也OK那我們對這個案子我想我們會很願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11830.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11855.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那全員來推動 因為這也是我在當立委的時候我其實有推動過的議題好 委員有意見好 謝謝 謝謝勞動部還有衛福部這邊對於我們這一項的提案就是願意來協助跟願意來配合那可不可以請一個月內提出書面報告給衛環委員會好 謝謝那我們就修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11858.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11862.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
臨時提案全部處理完畢 接下來繼續詢問 請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席 我們先請那個勞動部紅部長 請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11888.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11907.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
在前幾天我們有特別提到就是在4月份我們即將就是開放家有12歲以下子女的這個家庭可以申請外籍幫傭那現在就是兒童節快到了那也蠻多家長有特別提到就是說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11909.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11923.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
當孩子生病的時候家長可能把一年當中的試駕、有薪駕全部都用上了往往都還不夠因為孩子有時候常病毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11925.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11950.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
一請假可能就是在家可能就是一個禮拜兩個禮拜的這個時間那我想請教部長就是說我們當時我們現在4月份開始就是開放這個12歲以下的這個子女的家庭可以申請外籍幫佣那這個確實可以解決這個孩子們如果這個當生病的時候那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11954.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11960.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
確實12歲以下在家裡面我們開放這樣的外籍幫傭是不是真的可以解決這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11962.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11985.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
跟委員說明其實剛剛委員講的情境是很多現在家長都會遇到的那這個情境裡面可能有包括緊急性的狀況臨時性狀況有可能不是緊急性可是也還是希望減少負擔的部分所以我們其實有幾個相關的政策當然這個現在的外籍辦公的心智是其中一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11985.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12010.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
但如果剛剛委員在講的中我們其實最新的這個讓育嬰留庭可以以日來請小孩三歲以前以日來請那三歲以前有30天平均每年有10天其實也可以支應剛剛剛剛委員講到的這樣子的需求尤其是現在蠻多的家長都用這個以日來請來去來去因應就像小孩突然生病或腸病毒的這個做法那我們在數據上也看到使用的程度是蠻高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12012.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12027.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
確實現在還有很多家長一直在反應就是說孩子們一旦生病然後再加或者是這個班級這個幼兒園班級有人藏病毒然後就需要全班就是不能到學校嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12028.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12046.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那家長就會碰到類似這樣的一個狀況那我想這個部長可不可以建議可以去參考一下這個我們的鄰近國家像日本他們有一個這個病兒的保育然後我也想請教一下我們的這個衛福部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12047.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12059.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
就是說鄰近國家有這樣子針對孩子們如果生病或者是因為班級有人傳病毒不能再到學校可能就一個禮拜兩個禮拜的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12062.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12088.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們有沒有可能來發展成就是說家長可能他的假可能也都請完或者是可能也不適合請假或沒辦法請假的這個狀況那是不是有沒有去考慮一下就是病兒的這個保育這樣的一個制度來產生是不是有沒有可能把這樣的一個制度來長出來我是不是可以請教一下次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12089.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12116.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
非常感謝黃委員對這個問題的關心我們知道確實家長有這個需求但是我站在惠福部的立場我們就考慮兩件事第一個就是說小朋友確實抵抗力比較差那如果說真的有這個狀況的話盡可能恐怕就是說這個托育人員跟醫護人員他的角色我們建議恐怕還是要分清楚就是說六種控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12119.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12143.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
當然一定要有醫生第一個就是帶到醫院現在目前的狀況可能就是家長自己照顧或是阿公阿嬤有的他本身就因為班級有人染腸病毒整個班級就沒辦法再到學校去那可能就是留在家裡面有的是爸爸媽媽自己請假或者是阿公阿嬤自己帶那類似這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12146.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12170.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
有的家長可能我剛剛講的他的假可能都請完了確實也需要有人協助他我剛剛講的鄰近的國家有這樣的一個制度當然這個制度也不是那麼的完善總是會有人覺得說這個病兒的保育第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12171.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12198.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
尤其是在高峰期的時候譬如說腸病毒的高峰期那這個可能也一味難求或者是這個制度或這種病而保育的這樣的一個環境其實也不是每個地方都有所以我在想說我們勞動部或衛福部有沒有可能就是說也可以參考鄰近的國家有這樣的一個制度來產生是不是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12200.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12222.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
包委員這樣好不好我覺得委員這個想法很好反正日本那邊也有這個案例我們是不是可以允許我們來研究好不好我們來待會研究也跟委員報告其實勞動部這邊也非常非常幫忙我們現在目前因應我們現在目前的整個這一個12歲以下這個部分我們其實賴總統他也非常關心就是社會投資其實我們現在目前家庭都面臨轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12224.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12249.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
這裏面有很多都需要我們的整個托育還有我們的整個像我們現在目前衛福部也推出了育兒指導員我想很多都相關的人力我們都會有一個 老總部這邊會有一個計畫來讓我們的保姆他這邊能夠有多元的一些整個其實雙薪家庭確實碰到這樣的一個問題尤其是孩子如果生病的時候家裡面又沒有人可以幫忙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12250.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12271.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
確實會造成他蠻大的一個困擾是不是有可能就是有這樣的一個制度來產生我覺得也可以去研究一下我們來研究好不好那接下來我想請教次長就是說其實我們都一直在擔心就是說少子化這個議題這個逐年這個我們的新生兒逐年一直在減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12272.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12282.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那你看到這個數字你會不會覺得很可怕去年是10萬出那你今年預計我們的新生兒會有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12283.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12307.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
會不會比去年還要再少那如果是這樣子的話我覺得整個育兒環境如果沒有改善的話其實我覺得年輕人不婚不生的這個狀況我是覺得是會越來越嚴重所以我一直在講說這個少子化是這個國安的議題確實我覺得我們政府應該要多花一些時間去 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12309.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12329.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
去研究去檢討把我們的育兒環境做好那我今天剛剛看到一則新聞就是高雄的一位市議員在質詢的說質詢高雄市長就是說如果生第三胎送一棟房子怎麼樣想說這個是政府這個可能不是政府做的來的就是說我們應該針對少子化的這個部分怎麼樣讓我們的育兒環境更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12336.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12357.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那政府就是要做好這個支援整個支持的背後的這個系統可能也要都要做好讓他能夠無後顧之憂他才敢婚敢生嘛其實我們在地方都會碰到很多類似我們這種年紀小孩可能也都是室溫年齡了然後那他們也會很擔心就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12358.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12379.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我們的下一代可能就是不想結婚那當然就是有結婚可能有這個生的這個機會就比較大那連結婚的這個念頭都沒有的話這我覺得真的是我們要好好去思考怎麼樣讓整個育兒環境能夠更好那今年的這個新生兒的比例會不會比去年又更少 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12379.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12397.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我覺得這個真的是一個很嚴重的問題我覺得這個應該是勞動部跟或者是我們衛福部跨部會要去檢討的一個議題我們現在目前其實有一個少子女化計畫那我想這裡面其實可是我覺得成效不彰 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12400.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12423.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我覺得成效不長如果說真的有用的話不可能每一年的這個新生兒的比例是逐年再降低所以也正因為這樣所以說其實總統他自己在提出我們現在目前有提出了這一個3歲以下我想這基本上也是希望能夠用多元的方式我們有報告其實全世界各國處理這個問題不外乎就三個策略就是給錢 給服務 還有給時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12427.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12454.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
給錢的話其實我們現在目前有育兒今天0到6歲然後給服務決定我們現在目前在加強在推動我也要利用這個機會跟大家鄭重來講就是說我們的公托一定是加倍然後我們的整個家外送托比例現在32對不對我們會提高到36第三個其實最重要是給時間那勞動部這邊其實也已經有通過育嬰留庭論日還有我們家庭照顧假論時這個都是一些彈性化的措施我知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12456.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12461.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
可能要不久,所以我們會加強我們現在目前會有一連串的一個方案當然站在主管機關,我們當然希望就是說不能夠再補了我是覺得今年這個數字可能會再往下掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12476.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12503.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這確實真的很嚴重我覺得真的如果不花一些時間花一些預算在這上面我覺得這個真的對整個國家未來的競爭力確實是一個危機是一個危機所以我希望就是說因為也即將兒童節放年假大家都非常的開心我覺得政府應該要去想到怎麼樣讓我們的育兒環境能夠更好讓年輕人敢婚敢生 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12505.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12530.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
政府應該要投入更多的資源我覺得這一點當然就是說如果可以像那個有的民意代表提到那我是不是可以解決住的這個問題我覺得這個也是很棒只是說政府是不是有這個能力所以我認為就是說應該要投入更多的資源來解決這樣的一個少子女化的問題好不好真的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12531.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12559.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
多投入一些心思在上面要不然我覺得真的是還蠻蠻嚴重的以前我們當民意代表的時候這個假日可能跑通話最多可能就是那個結婚喜宴嘛那現在結婚喜宴一個月不到一次不到一場兩場真的很可怕所以我覺得真的真的政府要投入更多的資源在這上面真的是沒錯沒錯我知道那個黃董事長一直以來都非常關切這個問題我們這個也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12561.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12567.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
回去跟院那邊來報告好謝謝感謝委員謝謝謝謝黃雄光委員的諮詢接下來請圖全景委員諮詢好謝謝主席那請我們保訓會蔡處長和行政院副秘書長好請蔡處長及副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12599.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12616.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
委員好好我先請問一下處長那如果公務人員遭受霸凌我們通常是依據什麼法規來處理公務人員報告是依照公務人員保障法以及公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12618.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12640.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好那根據工人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法裡面他有一個各機關應組成安全及衛生防護委員會那就是我們講防護委員會他在處理職場霸凌的事件那通常他都上面有寫通常是由機關的副首長或者幕僚長來擔任召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12641.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12666.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
對嘛然後其中當然也會聘請我們相關的專家學者不能少於三分之一這是我們裡面的處理辦法的條例那像我們這一次爆發我們研會新副代表這個高階談判代表的事件那他上面就是我們的政務委員跟行政院那他的法規上所以看起來應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12669.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12685.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
他的機關副首長應該就是我們的行政院副院長鄭麗君那他的幕僚長就是我們的經貿談判代表楊真彌不是這樣是嗎如果照你規章的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12686.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12706.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
各位委員報告那行政院本部目前也有設置防護委員會那我們總共有12位委員那裡面有5位是外聘的那我們的召集人是我們的幕僚長 秘書長對 但是我剛剛講的那兩位其實也是可以擔任只是你這次是因為迴避嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12707.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12734.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以請秘書長來擔任這次的召集人不是 我們那是常設的編組好 那重點是這次我們我看我們這次行政院昨天下午提的這份專案報告那召集人是我們行政院的秘書長秘書長行政院秘書長他提這個報告那針對這部分報告說是依據我們行政院院本部職場霸凌防制申訴及調查處理的要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12735.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12760.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那我想請問一下這個要點是什麼時候公布的去年年底那奇怪那這個為什麼這要點我們在網路上都查不到我們行政院本部有這個要點我們有做內部公告但是所以是有這個要點只是我們查不到所以我想了解說因為我們都查不到這個要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12762.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12776.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
然後一般來講像我們很多像司法院環境部各單位都有公布這個要點而且他針對這個委員會的名單都有訂定都有公布反而我們行政院這邊我們是看不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12777.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12793.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以我在想說到底是不是有這個要點還是因為這次事情發生我們才去成立這個要點去做處理沒有 這個我們是根據保訓會的安慰辦法然後修我們自己的內規然後再重新設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12794.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12817.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好 那重點就是我們當然也看得到像我們成立這個調查小組如果當事人關係人雖然他有可能是我們機關副首長或者幕僚長但是如果跟他有相當的關係的話當事人當然是一定要迴避的嘛所以這次由秘書長擔任是沒有問題但是我們疑義的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12818.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12835.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
其實秘書長來去做這個調查小組的召集人但是副院長跟幕僚長跟他的關係也是相當密切那會不會對於這個中立性或者政治力的介入我覺得大家是有疑義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12835.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12861.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
跟委員報告這一次的調查小組的話我們四位都是外聘委員完全沒有我們內部的委員參與調查出來以後他會寫結案報告結案報告我們會送到防護委員會來開會原先防護委員會的召集人是我們的秘書長他因為也是我們對美貿易小組的成員所以他會自請迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12863.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12885.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
所以這份報告來提會討論的時候他會自請迴避自請迴避的時候我們委員之間會互為代理推舉一個主席來主持這個會議好12位裡面有4位是外聘的有5位是外聘的5位是外聘的就是外聘的專家學者那其他的部分是我們行政院內部的機關的人員那 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12888.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12894.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
這一次的調查小組 那我請問一下這個外部的人員外部聘任是由誰去聘任 由誰來挑選 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12896.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12913.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
外部聘任的話,因為這次保訓會是修改了規定以前我們就有性騷的成員,以前也有霸凌的小組這次我們是把他合併起來,我們就是用原來的委員來繼續留任 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12920.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12939.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
因為我們據我們了解啦其實這外聘委員還是由我們機關裡面去聘任的所以就算這12人裡面有7個是我們機關的成員另外5個雖然是外部聘任可是挑選聘任還是由我們機關的人員去聘任所以我們認為這個公正性 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12941.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12959.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
其實有待考量啦那尤其像這次我們顏慧欣副代表的事件據我們了解其實她進去之後去年9月份就因為壓力很大就開始請病假就開始請病假之後2月19號請辭王一鳴委員質詢的時候院長也 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12965.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12991.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
當場就有承認說2月19號池城裡面他已經知道他有陳情因為工作上的這些的問題所以2月19號也就池城提出來卓院長也知情這件事情也知悉了那到12月到3月12號那個顏慧欣副代表往生結果也沒有看到去調查這件事情那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12993.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13010.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這個事情我們真正社會大眾知道是3月26號我們社群網站披露之後我剛剛也有聽我們副秘書長講因為社群網站在3月26號披露之後我們才正式成立調查小組去調查做處理沒有錯吧那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13015.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13044.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們今天要討論的就是我覺得我們這個機制上應該是有一些問題啦你這個霸凌申訴的管道你看12個成員裡面7個就是我們機關裡面的成員5個外聘也是由機關去挑釁那等於12個都是你們決定啊那試問顏惠心代表9月份因為壓力太大你看連這個高階代表都不敢申訴何況一般的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13045.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13057.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
而且到2月19號連卓院長之息辭呈的原因那我請問一下後來卓院長有交代處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13058.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13087.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
跟委員報告那昨天左院長回覆王委員的說明的時候他是說他2月19號的時候有收到那個院長辦公室的幕僚拿轉來的訊息他知道有這件事情那他也交代幕僚要下去關心除了關心以外也希望那個嚴副總談判代表的話他好好休養身體康復以後繼續來為國服務是給他慰留的啦不是所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13088.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13089.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我有聽副秘書長講啊所以其實你們都不知道這件事情所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13093.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13119.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
講實在話就是沒有交辦去調查嘛對不對當時我們是真的沒有調查因為你剛剛我有聽嘛你回答其他委員說你們根本不知道這件事情是後來王育民委員提出質詢你們才知道原來2月19號院長就知道那知道之後你們不清楚就表示沒有交辦那結果我們原來調查小組的成立我們這些機制看起來都沒用 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13120.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13147.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
而且連行政院長知道也沒處理真正調查小組成立的關鍵點在哪裡原來在社群網站披露之後我們調查小組才依輿論成立調查小組所以這個機制跟行政院長其實看起來都沒有處理這件事情難怪一般的公務人員認為這個申訴管道基本上是沒有效益的而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13149.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13156.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
剛剛講12個委員7個是你機關的人另外5個還是機關指定你不覺得一般公務員敢申訴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13159.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13188.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
跟我們報告我們近兩年來的時候我們確實也有一些霸凌的申訴案我們也運作這個機制的時候其實也是很順利的運作因為我們參加委員會的同仁的時候大家都有一個認知因為你處理事情一定要公正客觀然後你對執行職務的部分的時候你要做保密的義務基本上我自己的觀察我們這一兩年來我們在運作上的時候我們都確保這兩個大前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13189.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13218.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
不是啊你保密我們接受啊重點根本沒有辦啊我沒有叫你公開啊問題是確實你也承認從2月19號院長知道之後也沒有處理也沒有交辦所以我說這個事情你看從之前勞動部現一種職場霸凌的事件我們開始一直爆發我們整個行政體系職場霸凌的事情我說講啊人之將死其言也善啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13219.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13236.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
連我們顏惠心都已經在加護病房病他上提出辭呈而且很明確講辭職的原因就是因為在職場上在行政院和工作上遭受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13237.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13266.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
職場的霸凌已經講得很清楚了而且還是沒處理最後處理還是因為3月26號社群網站披露不用人交辦原來只要媒體披露自然調查小組就成立了所以這個申訴機制包含我們的行政院的最高行政首長也都沒處理試問我們民眾對政府公部門這個公信力怎麼會有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13269.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13288.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
所以我希望喔保訓會啊保訓會針對剛剛本席提的這些問題啊我們講啊我們沒有超前部署也沒有及時處理我們只好退而求其次啊拜託亡羊補牢總可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13289.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13307.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
希望後續針對我們剛剛講的這些文官體制這些後續研議它的方向跟你們要怎麼去做可不可以提出來怎麼去研議怎麼去改善我們這些申訴管道的機制你想想看12個委員7個內部聘的 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13310.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13337.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
五個聽起來很好聽外部專家學者但是這都是你決定要用誰就用誰啊連陳情到行政院長也沒處理我們這個申訴管道基本上我覺得漏洞百出所以難怪職場霸凌的問題層出不窮保訓會是不是後面可以給我們提出一個書面演繹如何去改善這個方向要怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13339.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13367.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
可以提出這書面報告嗎我希望這個事情我們一直講從去年勞動部發生到現在而且從勞動部發生之後我們才發現這個事情層出不窮而且每次都等到人往生之後才去檢討這件事情我說今天這個事情如果不是在3月26號社群網站披露 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13367.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13383.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我們怎麼知道原來2月19號他的辭呈早就像行政院長說的清清楚楚但是根本連辦都沒有辦連處理都沒有處理連行政院都不知道這件事情是不是保訊會後面亡羊補牢吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13386.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13398.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
總委員報告一下就是行政院這個案子其實他是非因申訴而之襲那如果前面他收到包含像是社群媒體所接收到的資訊甚至是像行政院長收到的簡訊類似這一類的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13401.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13429.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
對於機關來說他還是必須要進行一部分的去認定啦所以我剛剛有講啦之後才會進到防護委員會處長我剛剛有講啦所以我剛剛為什麼說外部委員的成員的性質應該是沒有什麼關係啊所以我剛剛有講啦你看我們根據公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法這個防護委員會他裡面他規章召集人是我們機關的副首長跟幕僚長 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13431.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13458.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
可是很有可能這個召集人就是當裡面的關係人也有可能就是當事人再加上你另外就算聘的召集人也是他的下屬啊他怎麼去執行他是不是在調查過程中是不是還要回去請示他的長官可不可以這樣子調查然後12個委員會裡面7個都是你們自己人連另外唯一的5個還是由你們指定來聘任 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13459.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13487.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
哪裡來的公信力難怪現在這個霸凌事件層出不窮每次爆發都是人往生之後再來檢討我說啊從去年前年等等發生了那麼多事情勞動部霸凌事件就說要深切的檢討到現在也沒超前部署也沒有及時處理又要亡羊補牢所以我覺得保訓會希望你真的提出一個研議的方向跟改善的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13489.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13515.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
好謝謝好謝謝圖千鈞委員的發言待會陳穎委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘用餐現在請林淑芬委員質詢好現在主席是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13523.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13536.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
林委員好部長上次我在這裡質詢你關於開放12歲以下這個有子女的家庭進行申請外勞這個家事服務員的這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13537.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13564.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
走出去外面然後就有人來陳情了我們立法院裡面的職員工他就說他們真的很可憐因為他爸爸中風而他們的外籍移工因為知道了這個政策以後馬上就跟他說他要換轉換僱主他要去顧小孩比較他優先想要去選擇顧小孩的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13566.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13594.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個是立法院的職員工我走出去人家就馬上來說那我中風的家人怎麼辦誰要顧所以我就想說難道我們的外籍移工我們所謂的外勞現在變成開放外勞來照顧弱勢照顧中風的照顧失能的要變成照顧最強勢的照顧最有錢的照顧優勢的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13596.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13601.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
因為大家都知道不是每一個有孩子的父母都請得起外勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13603.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13625.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
而大概會只有所得大概所得台灣人的全部的所得分成五等份第一等份的前五分之一的家庭才有能力去負擔去申請家庭邦傭的外勞而這個所得就是年所得要大概兩三百萬兩三百萬的所得的家庭才請得起 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13631.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13657.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
所以我從來沒有想到說有一天從照顧弱勢變成照顧最優勢最強勢的那就算了你們有沒有配套你可不可以永遠不覺得外勞提供到我就沒話說了他不但是這樣子要留住既有照顧中風和失能的外勞一個失能的家庭要留住這個外勞你知道他還要給他加多少薪水嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13658.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13663.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
你不給他加薪 他要跑掉他就是要走那要加多少薪水啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13669.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13698.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我可以說明嗎你說啊我們其實在去年8月的時候我們其實有做法規的修訂那是針對這個在家庭看護如果要轉換的話那在程序上應該要由這個重症家庭來優先來承接那必須符合14天內優先這個媒合給重症家庭那是要在沒有重症家庭承接的狀況之下我現在要問你圖法不足以自行 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13699.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13713.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
你講這個都是道理講說你有配套這個都行不通啊他就每天跟你吵架我上個禮拜不是跟你講了嗎他就每天說你要讓我出去你要合意合意讓我走但是就算轉出去也是要優先讓中等家庭承接啊會嗎 是嗎現在法規修訂是這樣子的是嗎 有罰則嗎有罰則嗎要處罰仲介還是處罰外籍移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13728.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13746.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
有罰則嗎那個在轉換的順序上面我們有我現在問你說你有什麼處分的機制否則這個形同道德勸說你會處罰仲介嗎你會處罰外籍移工嗎你要換僱主要轉出去你不知道部長你不知道還要官僚告訴你所以你對這個配套你不知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13757.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13783.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個機制存在而且在我們優先媒合的順序上面就是提供優先媒合那我就不走那個我就要直接轉去有人要我就要小孩如果違反的話就會把他送出去我現在問你如果違反的話就會在60天內就會把他送出去所以你是懲罰這個外籍移工喔最好是喔不要在這裡如果惡性代工如果惡性代工他不按照我們的法規你這個如果就太離譜了叫惡性代工 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13784.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13795.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
他沒有惡性代工啊 我怎麼證明你怎麼證明他惡性代工他每天跟你玩遊戲沒在理你生氣 你如果生氣 你要把他當手啊你就說你不行了多少人是這樣生氣了受不了大吵大罵以後對外籍移工就動手了他就可以合法的轉換僱主了你在講的前提都是都是不食人間煙火的都沒有務實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13813.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13826.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
事實上就是吵架以後就可以轉換了事實上就是他不想要照顧重度失能的然後他就要去照顧小孩了事實上就是你沒有足夠的外勞來支撐 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13830.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13853.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以你讓移工市場外勞要留住他的經費 薪水大幅上升是啊 就是這樣子啊我們要講的是說 一個弱勢關懷出身的部長你端出這一種搶台灣人工作的政策讓台灣 欸 照顧小孩 家庭幫傭台灣不是找不到工耶 都有人在做耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13858.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13864.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
照顧小孩 不管是居家保姆不管是什麼樣的都收拓單位然後 欸少子化 今年生幾個孩子今年我都生十萬了有沒有越來越少的狀況整體的市場在萎縮然後保姆就是這樣子在那裡托兒中心在那裡你還要開放人家來搶保姆的生意 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13885.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13898.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
家庭幫傭 終點費的家庭家事服務工台灣人幫傭然後這個清潔工煮飯的都有人在做欸你開放人家來搶他們工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13899.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13911.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
你說台灣看護 本籍看護也有人耶 所得 台灣前五分之一所得的有錢人有在調的 現在也在搶耶 也在搶榜樣耶 其實是台灣人比較貴你現在讓外籍移工可以搶 他媽想台灣的市場多小的 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13923.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13936.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
你這個政策第一個搶走了台灣人的工作第二個本來在照顧最需要的台灣人沒人要做的家庭失能的 中風的 重度殘障的這一個移工我們大家不該做啊所以台灣人失業外籍勞工缺工外勞缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13950.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13975.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
重度癱瘓在那裡就沒人要走所以現在這樣叫人情何以堪啊你是弱勢關懷出身的部長然後你端出一個這樣的政策叫台灣人失業 叫外籍勞工缺工叫有錢的人 能夠入省籍 可以請到鄉的叫窮的人 乾坤的人 中風的家庭請沒人 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13979.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13993.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這樣子怎麼行呢這樣子怎麼行呢然後你剛剛在這裡一開始你就報告了你說啊為了一間夜間啦臨時需求的沒人顧孩子啦所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13994.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14010.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
你們要開放這個外籍幫傭 兼顧小孩啦然後呢 你剛才又回答立委蘇貞欣問你說因為現在有長輩當後援的家庭越來越少了需要人手 所以開放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14012.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14019.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
寶庭 我問你 你是羅東寶寶庭 還是衛福部部長啦夜間臨時需求 拖兒育兒 這不是衛福部的業務嗎沒有長輩後援 所以你要開放外籍幫傭現在長輩是理所當然 長輩一定要到各個村 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14035.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14037.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
你這種思想裡面裝了什麼價值你應該講國家要進來幫忙政府要端出照顧公共化的政策你怎麼說長輩退位了 變少了不是這樣說的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14052.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14076.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
你作為一個所謂的進步人士你應該端出的是照顧公共化更多的你知道我們衛福部你有部位整合嗎你知道衛福部我們剛立了一個兒托法嗎我們這個裡面要加強各地方政府要有定點臨托還有活動臨托你知道這什麼意思嗎你不知道夜間臨時需求你剛才不是說要開放外樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14082.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14099.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我們的定點零拖就是現在局府中心或地方政府可以設置更多的定點甚至連在車站都會設置定點零拖你有事 要怕孩子來政府辦的政府委託夾這麼多的 你上來我告訴你三點鐘四點鐘 你可以臨時拖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14105.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14113.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
這就是公共政策啊這就是我們額頭髮現在正在審查的啊這就是現在地方政府也有人在做的定點零拖一天這麼多你知不知道兩百塊如果不是三百塊有收沒 有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14125.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14135.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
所以你要端出這種政策在衛福部的業務啊你勞動部去搶了衛福部你講的那些理由都好像是衛福部部長所以我不知道你你這樣子做你端出了這個東西你怎麼還有辦法在這裡講的義正言辭呢義正辭言呢不中 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14155.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14183.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
然後你說開放外籍幫庸的事業衝擊評估性別影響評估兒童最佳利益評估你們在做了你什麼時候可以做好什麼時候可以寫完你評估都還沒出來你就開放了4月13就要上路了評估都沒做好沒寫完你就出來了當然外面也有人講了啦你找台大某某人寫啦權威啦專家啦大家都很想看他評估出什麼樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14185.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14188.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
他會照實評估嗎 大家也都拭目以待啦對不對你大概是什麼時候要公布 你們會做完相關的報告我們會在下一次的性評會的時候提出報告性評會 那失業衝擊評估呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14205.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14220.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
包括就業的影響 包括這個性別的部分都會在下一次性評會的時候提出那要從最佳利益評估呢下一次性評會議是什麼時候 行政院的這關行政院安排啊大概什麼時候所以你不知道啊 沒白就沒辦法這個是定期的會議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14228.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14256.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
你這個都沒有告訴我們你什麼時候要出來如果是定期你可以回答我什麼時候會出來啊但是確切的安排的時間是行政院那邊對啊你定期的下一次理論上應該是幾月包委員我們那個姓平會好像3月30號才剛剛開完嘛所以是4月30還是5月30我們那個會看那個院那邊看院那邊的安排他說定期會開啊定期是多久一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14257.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14277.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
姓平輝我記得差不多四個月四個月喔所以你如果三個月三十再來叫到你四個月喔 你這法案政策就做了又做到評估要做什麼都已經執行了 政策都執行了那我們要這個評估 不過評估出來說有衝擊 你都開放了怎麼辦委員我先問一下 我知道委員對這個保安非常關心我先問一下 委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14285.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14297.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這整個真的是我們的策略社會投資嘛我們知道現在家庭現在是在變遷當中我要委員報告就是說我們不是說我們現在要做這一行兩行都不做 我要委員報告我沒有在問你啦 我現在在問外籍移工政策 外籍勞工政策啦你不可能退部長回答 你先下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14310.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14323.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我們是要檢視開放外籍邦傭的政策對台灣的勞工和托育的負面衝擊是什麼那台灣我要講不是我自己說的啦台灣障礙者權益促進會他們有一個新聞稿他們就是這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14328.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14347.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
政府雖然以協助育兒釋放女性勞動力為名但是你缺乏完整的配套沒有完整的影響評估下恐怕會惡化性別和階級的不平等擴大資源分配的不均讓照顧責任進一步私有化淪為有錢人才能享有的特權 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14350.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14364.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
因為你所謂的前五分之一的家庭有能力負擔幫傭者這是典型的 這個政策是階級政策對障礙者家庭而言 他們很憂心他們憂心放寬幫傭資格 引發搶工效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14369.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14388.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
身心障礙者知道啊 搶工啊導致原本就吃緊的外籍看護人力被引流到工作條件較輕鬆的高所得家庭進一步稀釋掉弱勢障礙者的照顧資源照顧的困境會加劇我現在講 有錢人 請幫忙我請台灣人可能五萬我請這個外籍移工三萬我還可以中金四萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14395.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14399.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
有一個普通人 他們到外籍看護就好了可以給到四萬五萬的啊不可能嘛所以會不會搶工 當然會除非源源不絕 外籍移工的勞動力市場是供給大於需求才不會發生問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14422.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14429.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
現在外籍勞動力市場是進入賣方市場供給遠遠小於需求是我現在外籍移工要選雇主 不是雇主選移工遠遠小於需求 價格上升現在是移工選雇主所以會不會產生問題 當然會產生問題現在我請教你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14449.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14465.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
這個政策到底是不是階級政策部長你說說看這政策是不是階級政策跟委員說沒有第一個其實對於整體的相關育兒支持相關的政策這其實是一個整體的政策組合不要講育兒啦連家庭幫傭都一樣他搶走台灣人幫傭的工作嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14470.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14496.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
所以我們針對不同的需求我們會規劃不同的政策我現在問你這是不是階級政策只服務所得前五分之一的是不是我們針對不同的需求會設計不同的政策那其他所得五分之四的人育兒的家庭難道他們就沒有需求了嗎也會設計其他的政策去協助他們那請問你他要夜間臨時這個需求他回家很累家務不想做了那你要怎麼幫他 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14498.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14514.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
你幫他什麼其他五分之四的喔他回去也很累了他回去也不想工作了他也不想做家事了那請問你端出什麼政策幫他我們當然要用其他的政策沒有啦你沒有辦法幫他嘛不是嗎你應該這樣我現在跟你講說你沒有辦法幫他 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14525.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14529.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
外傭可以幫你接小孩 但他不能讓你準時下班外傭可以幫你煮飯 但他不能幫你加薪外傭可以幫你陪孩子 但他不可能替代父母在教育上的角色更現實一點 連外傭本身也需要被管理 被安排 被負責你會發現最後可能是女人 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14548.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14556.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
女人不只是說多一個幫手而還多了一份工作還要一份人力資源調配部門的兼職事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14559.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14583.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個政策是假設家庭可以無痛升級成小型雇主單位政府將照顧的責任和問題丟給家庭然後家庭再把壓力轉嫁給外勞再將照護工作的性別責任轉嫁給更弱勢的勞工把照護責任從本國女性轉嫁到外籍廉價的女性勞動力 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14584.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14610.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
這個是一個很典型的責任向下流動的鏈條所以中產家庭勉強強稱低薪家庭用不起高收入的家庭本來就不缺他只是花的錢成本高或低看起來好像是大家都受益事實上是擴大階級這個差距啦為什麼要講這個呢我現在在跟你討論喔你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14614.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14624.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
在很多人其實都走過這一段路 以新加坡為例新加坡來我找一個新加坡的這個數據以新加坡為例 其實他們開放嘛 而且他們沒有最低工資嘛 對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14634.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14656.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
新加坡在2010年有一個Teresa還有一個Leon我不曉得這個那個啦他發表了一篇Made for work-life balancethink again中文譯文叫做用女傭換取工作與生活平衡嗎可以嗎請三思他點出了新加坡社會對外籍家庭幫傭的依賴但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14659.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14677.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
為社會帶來沉重的代價不但強化了鞏固了照顧應該有女性而不是男性負責還導致企業僱主忽略職場育兒友善的必要性然後可以不在乎員工工作生活平衡的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14678.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14702.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面他們就發現其實並不是並不是只有利沒有弊然後員工想要請假你家裡不是有幫傭了嗎你怎麼還請假我想要回去顧小孩不行啊你家裡有幫傭啦所以這個政策並不是說有錢人都只有得到好處而已他可能讓他的雇主更有理由和更有藉口那我現在在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14708.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14724.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
不是一般人請得起的 現在連有三間房的住宅都很少事實上也買不起 你知道在台北市每月生活所必須 撫養一個人是48910元 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14729.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14756.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
是 撫養一個人是每月要48,910元事實上再不要講房貸 車貸還有這個其他的費用啦事實上的確就是錢所得全台灣人的所得 錢等據五個等據裡面的第一等據的人有辦法負擔得起其他都沒有辦法連空間 生活空間都沒有辦法負擔得起歐洲人口學刊喔 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14758.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14772.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
European Journal of Population早在2013年就有一篇由人口學家叫Angela還有經濟學家Oliver他撰寫的論文他明白指出長工時會減少生育率 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14773.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14791.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
而且由於女性就業以後蠟燭兩頭燒的壓力遠遠高於男性所以長工時對女性的生育率殺傷力尤其大他們計算出的結果是一個國家的女性平均年總工時增加100個小時生育率將會減少0.08% |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14796.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14824.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
人口經濟學的雜誌2023年也提到雇用外籍幫傭有望減輕家長養育子女的負擔但有些學者也表示在考慮家務外包對生育決策的影響時後面還有很多重的機制在運作文章提到聘僱家庭幫傭家長實際上可以擁有更多時間可能會育兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14825.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14843.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
也有可能真的會提高他們的意願但是第一種第一種原本就全職沒有上班全職從事家務的女性有了家庭幫傭以後會待在家的成本會變高因為開支變多了他們就會選擇進入勞動市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14847.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14869.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
但廣義而言女性可能會選擇就業增加勞動時間然後這樣子你以為是好了增加勞動力不因為這樣子他們對生育的意願就受到負面的影響這是第一種你以為有人來幫我了我要去工作了但是工作長工時就不想生了第二種 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14873.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14890.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
聘僱家庭的帮佣对本来就有工作刚才是本来没有工作的现在是本来就在工作就业中的女性而言也会产生负面影响例如为了获得晋升或追求更高职位而延长工作时间 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14891.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14918.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
或者是老闆知道你有家庭幫庸事情都找你做你也回不了家所以這個是人口經濟學雜誌在2023年提到你以為家庭幫庸制度完美無缺提升女性勞動力提升生育率事實上不是那台灣呢台灣的總工時名列前茅啊112年南韓的總工時一年多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14921.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14930.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
1874日本的總工時是多少 1637北歐的瑞典1416 西歐的荷蘭1351 112年的台灣總工時2019韓國1874 日本1637 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14943.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14971.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
所以如果人口學家那個Angela跟那個經濟學家Oliver的量化研究論文這個推論台灣總生育率極低完全就是預料之中因為工時太工時太長對生育率生育的意願太低那外籍邦庸最泛濫的國家是哪一個國家新加坡啊新加坡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14973.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14982.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
剛剛不是講了嗎 新加坡的外籍邦庸政策全開放他新加坡一年總工時多少 112年總工時多少2267亞洲第一高不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14993.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15021.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
所以呢就算在職的女性需要聘請幫手來協助家務她的月薪要多少肯定一定要比一定要比這個聘僱外傭的薪水更高那如果還沒工作的女性未來她從事的工作薪資要多少錢才能夠負擔起去引進這個外傭呢這個薪資年薪沒有數百萬真的是沒那麼容易啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15022.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15035.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
女性為什麼要主動放棄就業選擇在家育兒部長為什麼為什麼女性要準備生小孩在家育兒的時候勞動力就下滑為什麼為什麼是女性保定為什麼你也是要回答因為女性可能她薪資是比較低的對啊薪資比較低啊那你做了什麼你勞動部做了什麼要提高女性的勞參率 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15053.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15072.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那你做了什麼 你端出了什麼讓女性繼續留在職場 不要 不要而不是說為了顧小孩 然後就不上班因為顧小孩的成本很高我上班的薪水這麼一點點那不如我自己顧 不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15074.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15099.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
所以你要解決這個勞參率你應該端出你的政策而不是只有外籍幫傭而且為什麼會這樣放棄就業都不是所得前五分之一那一種女性啦那一種家庭啦都是你沒看到的所得全台灣所得五分之一以外的五分之四的家庭的女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15100.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15112.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
而勞動力最多這一群也是最重要的你服務那五分之一的所得前五分之一的那所得後面五分之四的人怎麼辦呢怎麼辦呢你這個東西就是看得出來女性仍然是家務跟育兒實質的承擔者號稱要留住女性 女性勞工你都沒有解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15130.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15150.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
薪資低於聘僱外籍幫傭的成本或外籍或者是保姆的成本所以即便有意願也沒有辦法他要請外傭也沒辦法就算有能力好他有能力的女性好了他請一個外籍幫傭可能你變相的要投入工作的時間要更長這也是另一種剝削啊對不對所以這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15161.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15186.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我再說一遍 外籍包容這個政策真的會造成台灣人失業外籍勞工短缺然後大家搶移工 只有錢留得住移工那沒有錢的 中風的 失能的 癱瘓的這一些真正需要 最需要長照的照顧的體系的這一些家庭怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15187.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15202.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
而顧小孩的家庭幫傭的那些有錢人他本來就買得起結果你讓他有便宜的外勞他解雇他自己家庭裡面的本勞這樣這樣子好嗎部長請和一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15212.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15222.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
跟委員說其實這段時間的確其實有很多其實是中產的雙性家庭來表達他們的確很有需要這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15223.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15251.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
你現在講的中產的雙薪的家庭的確很需要這個政策他們的實質薪水是多少他們的代表性是什麼因為每次勞動部推了一個什麼政策都會說我們去做了有意願你們沒有做好失業衝擊評估你們先做好需求評估這就是還沒設建未設建先畫把都已經畫好了啊早就知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15254.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15281.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
你講這些話敢對你過去的自己會高大的你說中產的中產的也有能力你不是講有錢人你意思是說有錢人請得起中產的家庭也請得起一個外傭委員的確是有中產的中心家庭的確有啊當然也有啊那我問你你定義的中產家庭是什麼啦你所定義的中產薪水的家庭是多少叫中產你可以告訴我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15283.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15286.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
他跟我表達他們可能雙親是個人還是多數那你所謂的中產階級雙親是多少錢可能爸爸媽媽加起來可能有十多萬出頭的薪資他們就希望能夠請 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15301.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15315.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
10多萬的薪水他本來是不是就有需求他本來那他本來他有沒有請人在顧他如果要他的確反應因為夜間所以你這個政策是顧孩子為主家庭幫傭為輔不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15321.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15338.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
夠嬰兒為主 家庭幫傭為輔啦那我現在告訴你新加坡那個例子新加坡人家走過了那一段路新加坡的例子你又是怎麼講你現在都可以繼續講 繼續拗啊但是新加坡就告訴你了 活先生的例子就在那裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15342.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15356.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
讓婦女出去外面工時越來越長然後家庭工作沒有得到平衡然後呢 我剛剛已經 我也是跟你講了很多遍啊外傭可以幫你接小孩 但他不能讓你準時下班 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15357.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15376.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
可以兼你的小孩但你不能準時下班外傭可以幫你煮飯但他不會幫你加薪外傭可以幫你陪孩子但他沒有辦法成為他的父母你孩子的父母在教育上該扮演的角色父母該有的陪伴的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15381.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15403.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我的意思是說 五分之四的人家庭需求 你怎麼辦 你怎麼沒有端出來你只服 這是不是一個階級政策你說不是啊 因為中產人員 有人跟你反應啊 有人跟你反應就可以了那我在這裡也跟你大聲疾呼陳情 為那些癱瘓的 失能的 中風的家庭在這裡跟你請命 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15404.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15432.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
你讓他們的外勞不要跟他吵架說要轉換雇主要去雇有錢人的小孩我也在這裡幫中風的、癱瘓的、失能的家庭跟你請命請你不要說不加薪的話他就要跑了我會替他們跟你請命不要為了要照顧每天蓋腰巴擦我也替他們請命可以不要讓他們的家屬心驚膽戰說我中風的父母不知道什麼人要照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15435.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15452.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
那你怎麼辦 你端出一個什麼政策給我們有人跟你請命說 我很辛苦 我需要有人幫我照顧孩子 照顧家務那這一群 這一群失能的 癱瘓的 家庭的辛苦 什麼人要幫他解決我也在這裡請命啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15458.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15468.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
真的 真的 不然你去想辦法讓外籍移工的供給源源不絕 供不應求供大於求現在是供不應求 你讓他供大於求啊現在不是台灣人在唱歌日本 韓國 世界都在唱外籍勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15485.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15495.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
大家全世界都在搶工欸不要以為外籍移工開放這麼簡單就不是啦謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢現在請陳委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15521.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15547.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
好 謝謝主席 麻煩請一下洪部長請洪部長請問好部長好 首先想要先跟您請教一下答案都跟你說了 跟你看了但是我想問的是原住民的職在千人綠 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15549.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15568.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
你給他看沒關係啊 那也不是今年的吧我要問你今年的114年原住民的職災牽人率是多少跟委員報告我們現在正在統計中那初步的資料是職災牽人率是3.267那全產業的職災牽人率又是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15581.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15609.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我們可能要再查一下數據我幫你查好這2點你們也還沒公佈我就不要聽你們公佈了對因為113年我這邊簡報上面是前年的那去年的我們目前還沒有看到那這目前你們還沒公佈那這個兩者的相差他有一些差距那部長你怎麼看待這個差距有什麼特別的意義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15611.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15630.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
對的確原住民族他在很多他的就業跟職業上面可能是比較會是高風險的職場的確我沒看到這個狀況第一個來不然我跟你說一下我換算給你看哦那每年大約有上萬件的這個職災發生然後以114年來看總共有25371件意思是說呢在這個兩萬到大 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15639.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15660.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
大概25000件的植栽里面呢比例换算一下从这个刚刚植栽千人率这样换算起来我们大概原住民的部分有占了15000人那其他族群的部分加起来大约有一万人左右这个比例是这样看起来是很可怕的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15662.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15689.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
原住民的這個職災宣導跟這個統計我們在過去在這個研究所就是我們前所長何俊傑的帶領之下他有特別建置了這個專屬的網站可以利用那這個網站在過去定期會分析原住民的這個職災的特性那這也顯示勞動部對於原住民高發生率的職災是有所重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15690.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15712.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那只是說在他離開之後那我們最近想要再查詢這個網站那我特別上網去看你們在這個網頁3月30號的時候有更新這個要給你們拍拍手但是我很認真的再去看一下裡面的內容卻停留在 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15713.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15732.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
去年也就是去年114年2月17日裡面的內容是完全沒有更新了所以本席會合理的懷疑所以我們是不是因為今天有這個專報然後你們要來備詢所以我趕快做個假動作那個網頁給他更新一下而且只有一人瀏覽那一人就是我們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15734.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15751.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
不是 他主要是他的資料的時間出來因為他可能涉及到勞保的資料然後我們還要跟內政部所以我們今年其實應該是在三月中的時候重點是因為網頁今天三月三十要有更新而且這已經就是有過了一年多啦這有一年多的差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15752.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15770.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
比較重要的是說我們看一下113年是比112年植栽增加了64例那我不知道說114年它會繼續上升還是下降那因為我要講的是整體來說114年應該是下降的 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15774.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15795.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那我們下降聽起來很好 好消息 但我們來細看一下114年度職災死亡的人數是251人比這個前年度要減少了36人看起來如部長所說的 我們這個降災的成效看起來是不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15797.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15824.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我覺得還有精進的空間好沒關係但是至少看起來人數下降嘛那這個要給你拍拍手但是呢我們在西部看一下實際上是因為今年我們的這個近年我們住宅的開工數也下降了下降了兩趴那也就是等於少了將近三千戶左右那這個也是一個很重要的數據那我們這樣換算起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15826.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15843.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
可能就不一定是這個降災成效良好了因為更何況在你們的這個製造業就是說這個製造業的死亡人數它是比去年增加了7人那total是你看在全產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15845.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15862.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
這個7個不要小看這7個人這就已經佔了這個增加這7個等於佔了全產業的25%的死亡人數了這個是很高的那我們再看一下就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15866.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15879.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
教育跟宣導是當然是這個職在預防非常重要的措施那感覺過去你們看起來是比較重視那畢竟就是說原住民利用這個我們遂時祭儀還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15881.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15905.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
各類的活動像射箭、壘球比賽等等你們在這些活動上藉這樣子人數聚集的時候我們大力的宣導當然這是過去研究所所主導而且有看到一些好成績但是同時我在這邊也要提醒勞動部就是我們要注意數據的正確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15907.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15923.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那也不要像職安署就是說曾經他發布了然後又增加重大職災人數因為必要的時候部長你也可以請這個跟這個勞保局可以再確認一下部長是不是可以同意這樣的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15924.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15951.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們當然會請治安署跟勞保局都保持資料上面的對接那今年初其實的確有一度我們有增加幾個人重大自災人數但比較大的原因是因為當時其實有一些自災認定案件還在司法單位裡面其實檢察官還在認定那後來檢方把那個他的資料給確認出來以後他是自災所以我們也很直接的就把這些相關的數字加上去那我們都不會隱匿不會隱匿絕對不會隱匿 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15954.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15981.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
因为大家都会去看当年的这个换算的人数嘛那至于你说每年都要去解释为什么增加为什么我们现在会是每季好那我想这个部分就提醒你们好吧我每三个月就公布一次那这个另外要也是要再提醒劳动部就是说我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15982.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16004.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
就是說在這個你們那個下降就是說數據一下下降太顯著太漂亮然後又沒有分析原因的時候然後發布的時間又比往年要再晚我說這樣的種種的這個跡象會讓我們難免去質疑這個數據的真實性所以跟文說明我們接下來會是每三個月每一季就會發布一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16005.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16030.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
好 那我們就拭目以待 希望有所精進那另外也就是說 勞研所的這個績效跟部長是不是重視會不會 有沒有在重視是有很大的關係因為這個機構呢 它當然配合這103年2月勞委會升格為勞動部之後呢所有的預算跟人員呢 都沒有變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16031.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16051.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那全部都是職業安全衛生的背景的研究人員那但是呢我們檢視一下這個正副的所長還有新來的主命呢都不是這個職業安全衛生的這個職安委的這個專業的人去領導 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16052.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16079.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那本席只是想要請教說部長這樣子的安排在領導統一上會不會容易出問題那專業上有沒有說服力會不會容易做出錯誤的決策跟判斷而不自知然後造成而且底下的這些專業的部署可能也不敢多說什麼那這些呢可能都會影響到部長做出一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16081.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16093.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
在做判斷的時候做決策的時候可能會有一些落差那我想我不知道部長有沒有掌握這樣的問題或者認為這樣根本也不是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16094.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16112.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
跟文說明第一個因為確實我們研究所這邊過去比較多會是專為的人員但其實近年外界越來越重視很多關於勞動市場相關的研究所以我們這幾年尤其是跟勞動力有關的包括跟就有關的這其實是在我們整個研究的範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16114.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16141.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
所以我们整个接下来当然我们还是会保持因为我们的在这个研究所的一个优势就是针对职安位的研究的部分可是接下来我们也会要来强化在劳动市场上面的研究因为这也是现在包括大家缺工的问题包括各种劳动形态的研究的问题这可能过去不是传统职安位范围的但是我讲的是我刚刚谈的问题主要是集中在我们的第一层一层的这个专业人士的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16142.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16164.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
他們的專業因為畢竟這個領導你也可以平衡一下我的問題在這裡其實因為現在那個王所長他之前在勞動部的重規師其實重規師就是掌握跟了解整個勞動部相關的政策其實都了解到都有一定程度的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16164.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16185.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
所以當然這個如果委員有什麼建議我們可以也再來跟委員聽取委員的建議那或者是有什麼提醒也可以大概提醒我們我想我點出這個問題啦那那個部長重不重視認為是不是有問題就是我也沒有辦法勉強但我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16187.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16206.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
在針對因為我們是監督單位那我就提出這樣子的提醒那另外就是說今天另外的議題是霸凌那目前就是說有關於這個職場霸凌的諮詢專線我們查了一下除了1955之外還有這個職安署跟這個勞工健康服務的心理諮商專線並沒有專責的這個服務單位你們未來會設置嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16214.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16231.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
會想要設置在哪裡嗎我想接下來在預防重圓中心我們會來規劃相關的機制好這樣很好謝謝那職安署的這個職場霸凌申訴管道申訴專線跟傳真請問從這個職安法的霸凌專章通過之後接到申訴服務的次數次量有沒有統計有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16234.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16246.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
對 你們有統計嗎跟委員報告 因為現行是條文還沒施行不過過去以來的不罰侵害的這個案件都有持續在接受跟統計所以目前是沒有啦因為還沒上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16249.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16276.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
因為只要是涉及到人的管理就有可能有這個霸凌的發生那這個涉及到客觀的事實跟主觀的感受那勞動部呢剛好就自己你們都遇到了那第一案呢謝一榮的案子勞動部從一開始調查是不成立的後來因為龐大的這個輿論壓力那我們又重啟調查然後又成立了這個就是他重新調查之後又成立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16277.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16296.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
結果法院認定霸凌案又不成立另外一件是裁判法人職在中心主管的霸凌案法院內部調查經過三次會議決議才認定霸凌案成立過程看起來是非常嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16298.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16312.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
但是呢這位被認定霸凌案的副處長卻還不斷的去提告申訴人證人還有調查委員結果呢反而被法院的這個判決書 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16313.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16337.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
把这个调查的这个过程结果认定霸凌案的理由公开那结果呢就变成了这个是霸凌专章通过之后我国第一件我们第一件由法院引用职安法认证通过的霸凌案成立那我想要请部长去看一下那份判决书就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16339.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16352.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
臺灣臺北地方法院114年度勞檢制第183號民事判決原告葉秀珊告證人原告之訴駁回我想我把這一份就先送給部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16372.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16400.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
好 這個看起來職安署負責的調查程序跟結果遠遠不如你們當時的這個職災中心能夠在司法認證上站得住腳那部長你知道嗎在有聽說這位副處長在調查階段有私下事先跟調查委員接觸我想請教部長調查委員的名單是不是不公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16402.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16430.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
應該是不公開吧他不能事先公開吧根文說明第一個在重建中心當時有幾件的霸凌案我們都依照相關的程序來辦理所以確實因為這當然涉及到一些個資那幾件案子那確實有霸凌成立的情況他不是到法院才認定霸凌成立是在我們在這個重建中心在法人的調查裡面就認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16432.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16457.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
成立的對而且認定完以後也做了相關的處置好在法人那個時候就認定成立是好那你可能要關注一下後續的發展對所以後來我現在後來又有他們提告到法院部長我現在問的你要回答我我現在問的是調查委員的名單是可以事先公開的嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16460.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16489.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
因為你們的這位副處長他事先去跟著這個調查委員接觸了啊你不知道這件事嗎你知道嗎調查委員的名單我們其實並沒有公開好那我想請問葉秀珊副處長他是如何得知調查委員是誰那他怎麼可以事先去找調查委員部長你要不要回去調查一下為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16491.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16499.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我不確定他怎麼知道但我要可以說的事情是說這個案子基本上這個內部的調查霸凌就是成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16500.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16528.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
我要在這裡我們要所以這位被指控的我現在不是部長你稍等一下部長你弄清楚我的問題我今天我不是在跟你討論霸凌案我不是在跟你計較霸凌案在你們內部就已經成立還是到法院才成立我今天我在乎的是為什麼這個副處長他可以事先知道這個調查委員的名單如果你們在這件事情上不能好好把關的話那未來會變成什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16531.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16542.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
所以我今天在這裡要求我很清楚有掌握這個訊息葉副處長他有跟調查委員他有去找他有接觸那 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16545.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16565.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
你要很正式我提出來今天這個問題因為他可能就是成為未來你們在處理所有的大零二的一個很重要的一個破口所以如果你有相關的資訊的話其實你可以提供給我們但是問題是這個葉副處長到處告人搞不好我今天質詢完他也告我呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16567.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16580.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
雖然不會成立但是他可能也會到處告啦那我要提一下啦就如果你有明確的事實的話你也可以提供給我們部長你暫時不要再跟我反駁任何事情因為我告訴你有這件事情那我們要提出來是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16583.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16611.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
我希望你做調查你去調查為什麼會發生然後你把這個調查結果跟本席報告跟我們所有委員衛環委員會的委員來報告我為什麼要你做這個動作因為未來如果有內部的人因此受影響而有特定的立場造成有一方被冤枉了那80專章未來還可以保護勞工嗎還是說變成有利人士的這些可以興風作浪的源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16612.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16636.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
好我今天特別指出這個問題我是要你杜絕未來有可能發生同樣的問題所以你一定要回去調查所以委員當時在這個法人裡面的確有幾件霸凌案的調查霸凌案成立以後我們在人事上面都做了處理的就是希望杜絕也希望能夠讓法人有一個新的在人事上面一個新的開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16637.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16656.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
所以我們也不希望說未來負責調查的或者去做證人的都被變成被告或者是甚至被開除或者甚至被反告變成是霸凌的對象這些都是不對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16657.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16672.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
所以一般的法律都可以透過執法或者這個行政命令來確保這個法律的效果可以被發揮那你們現在既然訂了這個霸凌專章但是你們卻沒有這個實質程序禁止行為等等的宣示都沒有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16673.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16701.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
而且也沒有這個諮詢服務的專責單位所以我希望老總部你們可以再繼續加油要有所作為讓自己通過的法案能夠真正發揮到保護被霸凌的勞工委員還是做說明說現在附屬法規正在修訂中所以剛才委員剛才講到的幾個點包括禁止的部分在新的附屬法規裡面我們都有放進去對這是在去年底的修法之後然後再新訂的附屬法規那我們希望能夠在7月1號可以上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16702.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16719.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
好那這個部分我剛剛講的那個事先那個名單洩漏然後被我是說那個葉副處長去找的這件事情你們一定要好好調查清楚有什麼相關資訊也可以再提供給我們我們來確認對謝謝謝謝陳映緯的質詢現在休息20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17936.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17936.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
現在繼續開會 我們現在請王振旭委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17957.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17971.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
好 謝謝主席謝謝主席今天排了這麼豐富這麼多元的主題謝謝大家可以來針對必要的主題做更多的質詢那小武部長已經不在現場我們就麻煩次長好 我請次長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17976.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17999.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
請委員保重是 謝謝市長的問候還有關心我想針對今天開放外籍邦傭就是外籍家事移工的部分很多委員也都有很多相關的意見基本上其實都是針對我國應該要改善育兒環境的期待希望能夠讓他做得更好也讓我們這些年輕的勞工朋友們 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18000.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18010.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
在他照顧育兒的同時呢都能夠有更好的資源來協助他們來把事情做好所以今天還是想要針對整體育兒政策的強化來跟市長這邊做個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18013.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18039.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
第一個部分呢就是有關於這個育兒彈性配套擴大領到6歲這一部分首先要先肯定勞動部在推動育嬰留庭彈性化這邊的努力這個努力呢經過今年2月開始推動這個新制以來根據貴部的統計不管是在申請的數量或者是在這個促進育兒性平的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18040.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18059.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
看起來都進步非常的多大家也都感同身受知道這樣的政策是對我們這些民眾有非常大的幫忙也是因為這樣成效非常不錯所以大家也會期待現在0到3歲的這個育兒友善措施能不能夠擴大從變成0到6歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18063.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18083.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那其實不管是今天早上很多委員或者是甚至在總諮詢的時候劉建國委員也有跟我們院長還有跟部長共同來質詢過類似的問題那個時候洪部長也有在說他會研議看來有沒有機會在下半年能夠提出這個修法的版本就是針對0到6歲的這個延長的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18087.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18110.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
那除了委員很關心以外其實我們很多的民團也都曾經表達類似的訴求就是希望這些育兒友善的措施能夠再開放他這個年齡這個大家共同期待主要原因是因為三歲以上到六歲甚至小學的低年級其實這個需求都還是明顯的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18111.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18139.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
如果我們要落實這個雙就業還有雙照顧的這樣的政策那就是要讓雙薪家庭的父母都能夠兼顧到工作與育兒照顧所以三歲以上的托育服務機構依照現況常常尤其是在不同的季節會因為腸病毒或流感等等的情況而有需要停班停課的情形之下這些的家長需要用額外的時間來做接送這是普遍的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18140.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18159.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
所以我相信民間團體這樣的訴求跟委員或者是大家社會的期待是相當一致的所以在這邊就有希望勞動部在演繹修法的時候能夠一併跟下列的三個部分來做演繹的對象第一個就是有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18160.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18184.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
這個性別平等工作法第16條可以來申請這個育嬰留停的年齡從0到3歲變成0到6歲那第二部分就是就業保險法第11條跟第19條之二有關於這個育嬰留職停薪期間的這個津貼的額度算是還有這個裁員也一併來考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18185.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18200.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
第三個就是有關性別平等工作法第19條30天以上的失業單位工時來縮減或者是調整的制度那這三個法我們其實辦公室也都有提出了相關的法案的修正內容那如果說下半年能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18201.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18223.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
讓這個修法有順利來推動的話那我們希望在未來三個月的時間裡面能不能夠針對這個擴大育兒友善措施的年齡延伸到六歲的演繹的結果能夠提供給委員會做一個參考那這邊不知道次長有沒有相關的一些想法是跟委員報告就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18225.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18254.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
國家在面對整體的人口結構的變化還有友善家庭甚至於職場的部分各部位都有完整的分工那在勞動部的部分主要是雙就業雙照顧這一塊那有一部分需要短期脫離職場在育嬰留庭的部分我們要讓他能夠回復到職場來也讓他的育嬰留庭可以比較容易去申請所以我們就會擴大到按日然後有一部分是屬於家庭照顧的部分我們擴大到按時 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18255.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18270.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
那有一些是屬於彈性工作時間的安排我們也在積極推出當中所以有關性別工作平等法在相應的部分委員所指教的包括育嬰留庭是不是可以從三歲放寬到六歲以上或者是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18271.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18299.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
就業保險法裡面這一邊原來我們透過公預算加給兩成的部分算是裁員各方面還有30人以上的調整工時縮減的這些相應的制度我們洪部長有特別在大院答詢的時候有說我們會在今年下半年並同的整體來做一個考量看可不可以在下半年有一個比較好的完整的想法所以委員所指教的這幾個部分我們都會審慎的來納入思考案的研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18299.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18328.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
好那就像這個原意的這個成果報告也可以先在三個月提供給我們做參考是是好謝謝那再過來就是有關於日本育兒友善措施的彈性化日本跟我們面臨的困境其實是非常類似就是他們的勞動力也不足那少子化也非常的嚴重我們可以看到日本的育兒介護修業法他們在2024年也做一個很完整的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18328.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18356.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那這些修法後來在2025年的4月1日還有2025年的10月1號開始分別這個實施上路那這個內容呢就會包括涉及適用年齡的擴大申請室友的放寬還有育兒方案的彈性選項等等這邊我們可以看到的就是有關於在4月1號開始實施的部分他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
18357.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18378.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
修法的內容裡面在事業要商路的部分呢就是將這個室友擴大到傳染病導致的停班停課這就是我們目前也希望能夠針對這個部分呢也能把它納進來那他們還包括像入學或者是在畢業典禮上面也都讓這些家長們是當作一個試駕的一個室友 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18381.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18406.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
另外他們的這個申請範圍也從就學前擴大到小學三年級主要是因為他們是小學一二三年級還是上半天的課上家長有更方便那我們這次是期待先放到六歲未來是不是能夠適度的再放寬我們是可以再參考的那在10月1號開始實施的部分他們更特別的就是針對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18409.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18434.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
在要求僱主的部分是有更好的一個方做法他們的做法就是希望說能夠有設定一個五項的一個必要的措施讓這些需要來做相對來做處理的部分能夠有所選擇那我把他們的這個五項的措施提供給這個次長來做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18437.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18455.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
他們就是針對於在子女三歲到小學之前雇主可以提供五項育兒的措施其中有兩項是可以提供給員工來做參考員工再從其中裡面折翼來利用這個五項這麼有彈性的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18458.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18483.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
雇主的義務第一個就是變更這個實業的時間就是包括彈性工時跟實測的出勤第二個就是遠距辦公可以每個月有10天以上第三項就是設置或者是營運的托育設施第四項就是養育兩立資源的休假就是每年有10天以上做選擇第五項就是短時間的勤務制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18484.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18501.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
就是僱主必須要從這個法定的五項裡面呢他們選擇兩項以上來實施那從裡面再讓勞工可以選擇一項來利用那這個過程當然他們有義務需要跟這個勞工做一個互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18502.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18517.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
做一個關懷讓人在選擇的時候更知道為什麼他要做這樣的選擇那他們也非常鼓勵但不是強制說一定要遠距辦公這樣的需求那我相信這樣日本的修法當有他們當地的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18519.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18532.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
可是也應該可以當為我們台灣在修法的時候一個重要的參考那不知道次長對這樣的日本的做法有沒有一些想法或者是想要做哪一部分的一些處理是 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18535.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18551.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
他三四十當然可以公錯不過兩國的法治環境沒有很完全一樣即使是這樣子我相信各國的做法都是相對類似的有關於譬如說有關於上下班時間的相對彈性化在我們性別工作平等法已經有一些範定 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18552.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18575.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那或者是說遠距辦公其實勞動部也推出了相關的指引在鼓勵雇主和勞工可以來適用這個部分尤其在COVID之後確實也是一個趨勢那至於托兒或者是照相關的措施這邊在我們的法律上也是要求一定層級以上的雇主需要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18576.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18599.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
去提供相應的措施的所以有關於日本的相關的法制我們會參考委員的建議去實際的蒐集案了解那在我們整體的相應的評估的部分再來做一些考量看什麼樣子可以讓我們的工作的家庭裡面父母親在育兒方面可以得到更多的資產照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18601.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18626.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
也請勞動部能夠研議這個日本知識修法相關的制度適合我國參考實施的部分能夠研議給我們一份報告也希望三個月能夠完成最後一個比較相關的性工法公布資料應該可以更明確的部分我們知道性別工作平等法在促進工作平等措施的立法結構上面有這三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18627.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18649.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
比較大家可以參考就是性供法第14條到第20條裡面就是針對生理假孕留庭假或者是家庭照顧假產假陪產假等等做一個相關的規定那第21條就是勞工在請求這前面7條雇主不得拒絕或不利益的對待那如果在 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18651.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18676.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
違反到21條的話那在新公法第38條就會有處罰2到30萬那同時要公布這些違法的僱主的資料這是我們可以看到的相關的這個立法架構跟結構那可是我們在勞動部目前的公布網站上面呢會根據不同的縣市他們所公布出來的資料其實是不是那麼樣的統一 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18678.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18694.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
原來有一些縣市就會根據前面第14條到24條他們違反了哪一些的內容那做了什麼樣的懲處公布相對仔細那有一些縣市呢他就是針對於說他違反了第21條所以用38條來處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18696.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18719.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
結果我們在做相關的這些處理的內容的時候事實上是會有造成的落差基本上我們要在統計或者是想要掌握狀況那對民眾來講這個資料的透明度也相對是不夠完整所以可不可以麻煩部理能夠針對如何去公告公布能夠跟地方主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18720.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18742.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
一起來討論把它一個比較明確的一個做法讓大家都可以有所了解有所掌握好謝謝委員的指教因為相關的法令對違反的情節要求行政部門要予以公佈上網公開其實落實法尊的一個重要的環節那我們勞動部跟地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18742.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18772.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
過去在這一邊包括其他相關的法令的規範我們都有持續在檢討也在其一相應的標準包括上網的時間然後應該上網的內容和方式那委員所提到的這部分我們一方面已經請我們的業管單位跟該管的地方政府在做協調另外一方面我們也會再重新整個去審視我們的上網公告的相應的部分有沒有可以再進一步檢討精進還有跟地方政府再把那個基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18772.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18777.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
化的更奇異的部分謝謝委員的指教好那就請市長繼續努力謝謝謝謝王振旭委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18800.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18804.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
好 那下一位我們請趙偉盧趙偉發言謝謝主席 有請陳次長及園民會我們盧處長請陳次長還有盧委處長對 盧處長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18828.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18846.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
我們原住民的工作類型真的是比較辛苦大家都是從事營造業一些非典型勞動的比例比較高所以都是暴露在高風險低保障的勞動環境當中所以我們本席在很多次的一個諮詢裡面都有提到這些我的請求謝謝我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18849.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18870.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
我們勞動部有提供一些資料我們先看一下就是我們的死亡死亡值債的部分在13年到14年10月有34件然後因為工地承攬停工的這個案件大概有62件那我想知道是說我們一直在要確保我們的權益然後希望能夠去督促那些比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18871.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18888.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
辛苦的這些非典型勞動加保的這些我們的基層勞工我想知道到目前為止我們的為了要催保跟查核我們到底推動哪些政策跟執行的措施現在執行的成效又是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18889.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18904.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
第一件事情跟委員報告就是說我們的原住民朋友主要他的勞參率其實比國人還高我要感謝原住民朋友的協助那他主要最大的兩個工作場域一個是製造業一個是服務業 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18905.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18925.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
製造業的部分因為製造業的工作屬性在過往的情況確實他的職災的發生率會偏高那這部分勞動部大概會採取幾個措施一個部分是我們對於職災發生的原因會去加強職安位的相關的的加強的相關的措施那第二個部分是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18927.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18942.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
營造業過往有一些多層承攬或者是分包的狀況我們在這一次承蒙大院的協助我們在職安法的修法也把這一塊做了一個起義的處理第三個部分是有關萬一不幸發生職業災害我們其實在勞工職業災害保險及保護法會有相應的保障那這邊我們一方面會透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18951.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18972.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
官的宣導去鼓勵大家去催促強制納保那另外萬一有一時半刻沒有辦法是長時間的僱用我們也有減便的加保措施那如果退一萬步言真的不幸發生了在植栽保法裡面也有即使沒有納保我們還是有一些基本的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18973.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18994.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
對於原住民朋友們的保護的部分我們會來持續加強那如果有發生離災不幸離災的狀況也會透過地方的個案的造福的同仁來提供必要的支持不知道原民會有沒有特別去掌握就是說被典型勞動者的那些加保制度我們目前實際使用的人數有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18995 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19009.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
跟委員報告一下那我們在107年開始就跟勞動部有合作有針對那些未勞保的部分來去做相關的處理從107年當時的無勞保人數大概是六萬三千多人113年已經減低到四萬兩千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19010.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19029.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
也是說我們的那個有勞保的人數從73.98到83.478左右那這個也是要謝謝我們勞動部就針對那些5人以上5勞保公司那部分有加強查核那有我們部分呢也配合也做針對4人以下無一定雇主的部分來去做一個宣導以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19033.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19041.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那我想知道說有沒有裁法或者是說你覺得這個裁法的比例有沒有掌握裁法比例可能勞動部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19044.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19067.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
這邊當然如果只要有工作就應該要加保這是僱主應該承擔的責任那如果僱主沒有加保我們一方面會提供勞工的職災勞工保護法會提供勞工必要的給付同時也會裁罰僱主他應該支付的相應的費用除了罰完之外本來他應該透過保險來給付的這部分我們也會請僱主來負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19069.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19086.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
相應的部分我們其實都有在一些處理我是不是請我們市長可以就數據的部分跟我們做一個說明跟委員報告就是我們從災保法是111年5月1號開始實施我們對沒有加保的失業單位我們會裁罰2萬到10萬那大概從那個時候到 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19091.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19107.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
到115年的1月為止一共有10,073件但是這個是全體不是原民原民的部分我是希望有一些數據給我們原民的部分再細分出來給我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19107.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19135.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
我再看看勞保局能不能把它分開我知道在加重裁法跟嚴格查核這個機制是對當然是全國通用不過我是覺得如果說像我們針對我們原住民的企業可能都是在起步的階段或者是說他確實沒有一些專業的人力來幫他做這些比如說他缺乏法務跟行政的一些量能他缺乏風險辨識的一些專業能力也就是說可能雇主也不知道哪裡危險也還有一些就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19136.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19158.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
買不起房戶或者是外部的這些配備也就是說他缺乏財務的彈性跟資源所以雖然我們有加重財法跟嚴格查核可是就僱主的部分我覺得還是要輔導我們原住民的這些危險的企業者因為本來就做這些事情本來就已經很辛苦可是他們沒有這方面的專業可以加以輔導嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19159.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19184.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
是這邊沒有問題謝謝委員分成兩個部分來看第一個部分是只要有工作就應該參加職災保險那這部分也有簡便的加保方式可以去做處理那第二個部分是有關於降災防災減災的部分這部分就是有關於在營造業的現場如何避免他職場安全的部分受到危害那主要以前大部分都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19184.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19198.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
碰到的是高空墜落諸如此類的相應的災害那這部分我們洪部長有請治安署針對營造業的防災減災的部分去推動相應的專案那也跟很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19200.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19227.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
工協會在營造夥伴關係會去持續的去推廣那希望我再看職場減災這個部分我覺得原鄉也沒有被特別拉出來看所以他如果他在全國的一個平均數裡面就看不出他的嚴重性所以這個職場減災的部分我希望有個原住民的KPI就是說你原鄉跟原民的企業覆蓋率是多少你們宣導是怎麼做的我覺得應該是還是要具體一點讓我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19228.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19251.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
好謝謝這部分我們會分成兩個部分來做第一個部分就是說原民朋友如果在一般的企業裡面我們會透過整個職安位的角度透過全企業的方式來宣導那第二個如果是原鄉或者是原民事業單位比較特殊的情況我們也跟原民會來請教一起來對針對這部分來做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19252.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19278.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
對 因為現在的財法都很高比如300萬到450萬就是說隱匿這些其實就我們的這個我剛才說的微型創業這些他們根本就沒有能力去負擔這些所以我就說既然有這麼高的財法應該有相當程度的一個所謂的輔導跟我們剛才所說的所謂的KPI 減災KPI最後就是針對我們之前有講到促進人主民主就業獎勵計畫這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19280.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19306.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
那可能工作到一定的時間可能就獎勵原住民一些他的獎勵可是只有獎勵勞工可是沒有獎勵雇主所以我們之前在12年的6月像會議上面勞動部就代替原住民提案說原民會提案說要補助事業單位促進原住民主就業計畫希望能夠補助雇主的負擔勞保及救保的費用的50%我不知道現在這個執行的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19308.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19335.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
先跟委員報告那有關就針對原住民出行就業獎勵的計劃部分其實我們是跨部會合作那我們就針對原住民的個人的部分如果是你的薪資超過三而且穩定工作三個月大概就會有三千到一萬左右的不同等級的薪資去做獎勵但是雇主的部分有現有勞動部的計劃就已經有了所以我們這個部分是跨部會有在合作所以現有的就是50%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19337.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19356.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
但是補助的那一塊那個還在研議中所以已經從12年到現在已經三年了還在研議所以我們現在就是用促進就會獎勵計畫這個部分先做我們可以做的部分那我希望那勞動部主責嗎還是你們主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19357.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19377.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
我們研究個人的部分我們這邊會來處理但是我們也會用跨部而且我們每半夜也都跟勞動部做一次的一個研究業方面的一個平台的一個聯絡會議我是希望一個具體的一個財務評估適用條件跟上路的時程不然我們的雇主其實也是很辛苦可以嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19379.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19404.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
最後一個問題是關於那個我們因為大家都講到那個時候我就講我們75歲那個免巴士量表的部分那還是勤務服部還有勞動部還有我們運營會因為我之前找過分別找過各單位來談結果大家都互相貼來貼去我很想知道說到底這個75歲原住民免巴士量表是哪一個單位要主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19407.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19420.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
跟委員報告大院在修正就業保險就業服務法的時候80歲以上是免巴士量所以我們當時跟衛務部在整個的相應的措施裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19422.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19450.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
會去協調合作去讓他順利的實施也沒有排擠到重症家庭的需求至於委員所提到說原住民朋友的部分是不是75歲以上就可以免巴士量表我跟委員報告在目前的狀況底下原住民朋友在70歲75歲到80歲這部分其實他有相關如果萬一不幸有失能情況相關的照顧其實現在絕大部分都已經可以走到多元免評了 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19451.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19476.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
唯一如果說他沒有達到失能的狀況而要去放寬免巴士量表的話那這部分恐怕現階段還需要再做審慎的討論但是我要強調說原住民朋友在70歲以上如果他有失能的狀況需要協助照顧在現階段都已經多元免貧絕大部分在多元免貧就可以得到協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19477.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19504.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
那好那我知道這個就是說多元免貧可能協助大部分可是我是希望羅處長這邊園民會能不能掌握75歲的長者我們原住民的確實有這個需求的可不可以在近期之內調查出來或者是說你們覺得有沒有一個替代比如說今天做不到這些過度的配套是不是由衛生所或者巡迴醫療或者是長照評估就可以拿到這些他應該要有的這個量表而不是要又要派車去 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19505.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19525.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
帶長者去醫院然後再去做一個巴車因為現在他說還沒有一個可行方案嘛75歲以上免巴車量表他還是要巴車量表嘛萬一他需要這個的話能不能有地區的也就是衛生所跟我們在地的診所就可以不然那個舟車勞頓真的為了一張紙很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19525.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19549.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
有那個衛福部有先公告的一個就是在針對那個多元的那個評估的方式這個已經有相關的有相關規定出來了那75歲以上的長者確實需要的我覺得也可以去掌握數據我們也試著幫您看看OK好謝謝好謝謝謝映映召委的發言也謝謝各位官員的答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19578.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19599.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
現在請鄭天才委員質詢主席 各位有請勞動部還有言明會請陳次長 請羅副處長鄭委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19607.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19619.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
這個根據113年度原住民族就業狀況調查這個原住民在營建工程業佔了18.24%營造業14.26%總共就是三十幾32.50%所以也就是說我們有三分之一的就業是在這個營建跟製造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19637.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19638.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
那根據剛剛已經講過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19641.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19651.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
好 我們看看我們這個衛福部的一個勞動部勞動部的一個這個2025年跟2024年重大職災死亡人數這一個統計雖然2025比2024少了但是少的還是很有限總共在2025年還是有251件的 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19670.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19692.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
這個重大之災的一個死亡人數當然這個受傷的還沒有在裡面所以要請這個那個勞動部針對這個2025年了2025年原住民到底多少我們先分兩個先分兩個部分中華民國的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19697.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19712.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
多少然後外籍勞工多少分兩個部分然後再從中華民國國民裡面原住民占多少的人數這個在2025年的部分現在有數據了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19715.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19742.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
根文報告我現在手邊的數字是我們在原住民勞工朋友們的部分是2025年嗎2025年的部分直災死亡的件數有10人然後他的原住民的直災遷人率是3.267死亡遷人率是0.044那比113年略有下降但是無論如何我們都不樂見任何直災的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19746.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19762.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
統計的時候在後面再補充之外包含受傷的部分這樣的話就會更完整那我們看這個報告裡面有勞動部的報告裡面特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19764.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19791.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
這個114年營造業死亡人數105人佔42%蠻高的然後相關的這個墜落致死亡高達67%而且是民間工程的比例超過7成而且死亡人數還製造業死亡人數還增加了增加了7人共63人所以這個都是需要繼續去加強防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19795.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19815.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
這個早期沒有話說但是現在相關的技術、科技各方面工程的那個技術或是那個都一直很先進的結果還是一樣這麼多這個都是需要去加強去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19816.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19831.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
謝謝委員指教因為在營造業的特性它時常比較容易有分包轉包的或者是協同公進的相應的部分那這部分謝謝大院的支持我們在職安法這一次的修正也把這部分列為一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19832.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19858.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
會去加強相應的施工的指揮協調還有相應的處理那至於製造業的部分可能跟他的不同的工作製程會有一定的關聯我們治安署會分析每一個個案的相關案件的成因然後針對相應的類型去對治安衛的部分如何去降災防災減災的部分再跟相關的工學會持續去做密切的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19859.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19888.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
剛剛你有提到 確實是一個問題會造成這些質災的給付或是包括它有投保的比如說營造業它有投保的保險公司的認定就很多因為我們都會發生災害的會發生質災的都是第一線的工人而這些第一線的工人絕大部分都不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19890.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19913.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
第一線的承包商的所以以前他缺乏相關職安位的安全衛生的督導和協調都是大包中包小包勞工頭在勞工啊所以這個都是一個需要加強的部分然後我們看研明會的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19915.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19925.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
這裡面提到這個確實是原住民的植栽的人數確實是比較高了我們看這個嚴明會的報告裡面提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19927.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19944.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
這個原住民族工作近年收入近年逐漸成長108年到起原住民族有酬就業者每人每月主要工作平均收入突破3萬元且逐年增加至113年已達35304年水準這個處長是這個數字你認為很好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19955.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19974.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
是有改善但是還不夠我們都還有那個改善的空間我覺得還有很多努力的空間這個紀理勞工的平均薪資最起碼差一萬塊是的你看台灣勞工的薪資狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19977.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20001.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
2024年基本工資兩萬七千四百多然後這個每人每月經常性薪資平均是四萬六千四百五十這是2024年2025年基本工資兩萬八千多所以我們這個三萬出頭只是比基本工資多一點點而已如果要跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20003.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20020.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
這個平均勞工的平均薪資2025年是四萬七千七百零九少了一萬多了所以這個部分都是這不僅是人民會勞動部都是要去加強怎麼樣能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20022.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20047.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
提升我們的事實上都是勞力的跟委員報告一下因為我們現在新一起的原住民住金九月方案當中已經有邀請六七個部會包含勞動部在內那我們過去都是從就業優先現在是轉為薪資提升那剛剛委員在講的那個差一萬塊的那個差距其實我們都有在掌握主要問題就是我們都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
20049.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
20070.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
第一包第二包第三包然後公投下面的對就是這樣就結構然後有有很多都沒有勞保啊對所以問題重重所以真的是要請勞動部跟嚴明會要加油好好謝謝謝謝謝謝曾天才委員的諮詢接下來請吳立華委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
20084.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
20087.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
謝謝主席 有請勞動部 袁銘慧請楊次長 羅處長吳委員好次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
20095.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20123.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
其實今天特別謝謝昭緯安排來關心我們原住民的勞工的勞動條件其實很多都是老生常談講到薪資低或者是職災的比例高這都是老生常談我其實是想要表達因為我來到立法院六年我常常面對我們原住民的勞工跟我講一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20124.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20145.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
他們會跟我說可不可以去處理一下移工的問題但是我們台灣確實是缺工所以我們有這樣的一個移工的政策可是很感慨的就是偏偏我們台灣缺工的前五大 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20147.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20169.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
反而剛好恰巧就是原住民投入行業的前五大所以我們可以說原住民對台灣是非常有貢獻的當我們看到今年一月美國的攀岩家攀登101大樓可是101大樓是原住民勞工蓋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20171.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20194.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以在這樣的一個基層去從事這樣的一個勞動就業照理說我們是政府的寶很值得政府好好的來幫忙去解決原住民所面對的困境可是我就是不理解我以過去原住民勞工來講民國80年的時候30多年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20199.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20214.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
他們去做工鐵工綁鐵一天是可以拿到3000甚至工頭可以拿到5000可是35年過去怎麼會變成這樣所以他們就一直怪罪移工因為移工進來了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20218.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20238.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
其實最大的問題癥結點像其實我們去現在很多國家日本我們也看到他們缺工的情形很嚴重那也用了很多的移工進來現在到日本我們看到的很多都是國外的從事他們的勞力工作可是台灣不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20240.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20250.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
我們要理解的是因為癥結點在於我們原住民的這些就業的職業求職的意向跟移工高度重疊那移工他賺到這些錢他回到他的國家非常的好用可以蓋房子可以買土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20266.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20292.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
可是我們卻倒退到只配得基本工資我們沒有辦法在台灣過上跟這些移工回國一樣好的生活所以我想這個部分包括現在的移工也非常多的逃逸到我們的原鄉像那些種茶的 種咖啡的 種高麗菜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
20293.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
20316.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
但是我們好像沒有辦法跟他們競爭所以在這個部分我就是比較想要了解一下我是希望勞動部跟我們的原民會針對目前原住民勞工這種窮忙又窮又忙的這種困境我不知道說到底有沒有提出移工開放對原住民就業衝擊的評估報告勞動部有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
20320.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
20334.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
跟委員報告以營造業來說其實當時營造業在處理移工開放的議題的時候我們其實跟原民會還有行政相關部會都很關切對原住民朋友的就業的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
20335.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
20358.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
那後來開放主要是基於幾個考量第一個是說因為其實台灣的人口結構確實變化了那營造業真的就是缺人那導致了非法的失聯移工大量的湧入營造業那湧入營造業會產生兩個很複雜的現象第一個就是他的職場安全一定會有很大的問題那這會連帶影響到包括我們的勞工朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
20359.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
20375.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
有原住民朋友在職場安全的部分那第二個部分就是說因為他是非法工作所以僱主always都用cost down的角度在做理解那某種程度上也會變相的去在勞動條件上面對我們其他的包括原住民朋友在內是不利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
20375.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20405.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
所以回過頭來我們在營造業這邊的邏輯上是我們適度的去引進合法的移工然後讓他的經過一些適當的訓練讓他的職場安全衛生可以獲得確保讓他在相關的薪資條件上有一個基本的門檻那至於說原住民朋友在相應的這部分營造業也好或者服務業也好相對的勞動條件的部分我們跟原住民會來原住民會會一起來看看如何來 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20405.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
20432.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
因為時間的關係我在這邊本席就是要求我希望勞動部跟原民會因為移工開放對原住民的就業衝擊他到底是我們的一個想像他還是真實的發生存在那到底要怎麼樣去保障我們國人的薪資原住民的這些勞工的薪資防護機制我希望可以提出一個報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
20434.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
20459.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
一個月我是希望那個報告是策進作為喔包括園民會這個地方怎麼樣去照顧到保障原住民的勞工薪資如果他就跟移工拿的一樣人家回去很好過我們永遠就在底層我們是全國平均薪資的一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
20461.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
20487.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
我們永遠就生活在底層有多少人在貧窮線下所以這個部分其實對我們尤其是我要特別強調原住民沒有少子化的問題只有平均餘命短少的問題我們現在是對台灣很有貢獻我們的人口已經來到2.7%台灣原住民對台灣這個國家是很有貢獻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
20488.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
20508.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
但是我們竟然有這種薪資低勞動條件不佳然後呢教育高等教育我們的出債學率跟一般的大學生竟然落差30%然後我們的平均餘命又低我想這個都是整個告訴政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
20509.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20515.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
我們沒有照顧好原住民我想這個部分就麻煩勞動部跟園民會可不可以就薪資的防護機制保護這一塊那移工的衝擊影響然後我們怎麼策進我們的薪資的保護提升那我希望一個月可以給我這樣的報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20528.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20551.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
跟委員報告就是有關於植栽的減栽或者是強化技能修業輔導這部分我們本來就一直持續關注一個月內提出沒有對我是希望怎麼樣讓原住民的薪資可以增加跟移工有差異化薪資的部分如何去做提升然後如何去有一個衝擊評估這部分就需要比較多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20551.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20576.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
因為我們現在原住民就是被迫嘛你不願意跟移工拿一樣的薪資我也不想要你嘛關於這一塊有關於衝擊影響評估或針對原民朋友具體的情況去提出一個日本那些國家是沒有那麼多原住民啊台灣不一樣欸台灣很多原住民欸一個月可能會有一些困難是不是再給我們多一點的時間我們跟人民會可以一起可以兩個月三個月都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20577.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
20592.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
委員會我再補充一下那有關剛剛委員提到的一些影響評估那個外籍工的部分我們會拉到原住民健康狀況調查裡面那至於說在委員提到的二期計劃草案當中我們放說外籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
20592.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
20613.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
移工對於原住民的就業的一些影響的一些相關因應措施我們也會把這個計畫當中放進來那也有把剛剛委員講到的薪資保障的部分也會放到二期計畫來我們這個已經在3月20的時候由我們副主委召集六七個部會來去做一個相關計畫的因應 以上好 謝謝次長 謝謝處長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
20619.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
20620.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
好 謝謝我們陳市長及羅處長現在請 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20628.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20649.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
王宏威委員 王宏威不在我們接著請徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈不在我們接著請岳元之委員 岳元之委員 岳元之委員不在我們接著請鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員不在我們接著請林倩琦委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20660.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20681.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
好謝謝文主席盧昭偉接下來本席這邊的一個質詢先請這個衛福部的次長還有我們現在勞動部也是次長陳次長陳次長在然後跟園民會的這個代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
20683.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
20691.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
好 那本席第一個部分先針對這個原住民健康不平等跟公安的問題來請幾個部會來做一個討論那麼根據內政部的統計花蓮縣原住民的人口達到了94924人 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
20698.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
20719.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
那麼佔全國原住民大概15%以上那也佔花蓮縣人口的三成以上那麼也算是全國非常具有代表性的原住民族的這個聚集區那人口基本上應該是成長的但是健康狀況沒有同步的改善那麼113年呢整個花蓮縣原住民標準化的死亡率達每10萬人1170.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
20721.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20748.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
那麼也高於這個所有標準化的750.3那甚至全國排名的也是第二那僅次於本席的這個故鄉台東那代表這中間原住民族的健康不平等的問題是事實存在的而且花東地區呈現高度集中跟結構性的一個特徵那本席關注的這個部分是死因跟事故傷害的問題那看起來在這個區塊特別嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20750.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20776.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
那麼整個花蓮縣事故的死亡當中的死亡率也偏高那麼顯示原住民在工作跟生活的環境當中承擔不成比例的風險所以本席這邊先就叫勞動部那麼原住民在從事高風險工作的比例比較高那目前針對原住民族的一個職業安全的預防機制跟勞檢機制那是不是有針對族群的特性跟產業的分布來進行調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20780.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20809.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
那是不是請勞動部這邊先回應 我先跟委員做報告等一下再請我們治安署林署長做補充第一件事情就是說原住民朋友主要的集中的工作場域大概就是營造業製造業跟服務業那近年來就是服務業是大宗但是看起來相應的植栽的發生事故率還有致死率最高的其實還是在營造業那營造業因為他的產業特性對這個本席剛才有聽到幾位原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20810.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20828.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
委員其實有提到這個區塊所以我跟委員報告當然我們做了幾件事第一個就是謝謝大院的支持我們在職安法修法的時候針對這樣一個多重轉包或分包如何去建立其他職安位的相關的督考底細我們做了處理那第二部分是我們也針對原鄉的部分有 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20830.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20858.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
原民的巡迴教室我們有在做相應的職業安全衛生甚至於勞保各方面的宣導那第三個部分我們對營造業也相對的有一些減災的計畫在執行那我想這是一般性的做法你們都有那對於原住民你們是以一般勞工來看待還是有族群的一個分布跟族群的特性跟產業的分布再去做一個更細部的處理呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20860.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20885.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
當然剛才跟回答鄭天才問也有同樣的質詢嘛就有關一般的營造業的部分我們確實是整個你們不要只談營造業啦剛才本席有談到原鄉尤其是燉鋪原鄉的這部分有關原鄉產業的特性相應的部分那這部分我們會跟原民會一起來協助如果這需要有相應的方案來處理我們會請治安署 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20888.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
20904.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
本席希望這邊再更細緻一點剛才本席其實幾位原住民的委員在跟你們詢答的時候其實也有注意到這個區塊你們常常當然是本席的這個問題就是說你們是把它當一般勞工或者是整體性大概一致性的這樣一個看 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
20905.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
20923.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
看法可是剛才本席一進來其實就有先提到了區域的特殊性然後當然這個部分還會關係到產業的特性其實還有很多更細部的一個原因那本席這邊期待是說你們可以對細部的原因也更多的一個了解因為畢竟職災或勞工的區塊你們掌握都是相對比較高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
20924.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
20948.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
好 那麼當然待會兒我還可能再請你們做一個補充那接下來衛福部那本席在針對這個部分想要了解一下那我們整個原住民族的標準化的死亡率偏高那麼目前有沒有針對花東地區可以提出比較專案型的健康介入的一個措施那包括醫療的可請性跟事故以後的醫療資源配置那有沒有區域性的強化策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
20949.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
20977.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
OK 好 包委我們這邊還主要大概幾個部分一個當然就是說我們有一個就是花東基金那邊特別是有關於整個花東這邊的一個整個相關醫療量能的一個提高對本席這邊談到的醫療可靜性你們有沒有比較具體的一個措施醫療的可靜性跟事故以後的醫療資源的配置好 包委我們這邊大概幾個部分就是遠距醫療還有其實最重要事實上是醫事人力的一個提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
20979.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
20979.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
對沒錯 我這邊是不是請我們我們的副市長來跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
20982.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
21010.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
好 各位報告 那目前針對尤其是花東地區 我們對衛生所我們有專科援軍醫療的一個機制現在幾乎每個衛生所都已經有設置了這是第一個 第二個我們對在地的醫事人力培育一直都有也就是說援助民屬於援助民的部分 我們在公費的培育我們有這個公費的制度我們剛才講的這些東西我想一致性的一個推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
21011.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
21034.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
都有 但是本席要知道的是說 針對這個區域那醫療可靜性的一個分布那另外一個部分就是適合醫療的一個資源配置針對區域性的一個強化策略你們是不是有比較具體的一個措施那因為時間關係 我是不是也請你們會後做一個提供我簡單說一下就是說一樣花東 花蓮跟台東還是不一樣就是像維吾爾選區 台東其實主要應該還是靠衛生所 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
21037.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
21053.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
花蓮那邊因為它有一個花池它有醫學中心是以大代小但是台東是非常不一樣的16個衛生所裡面我跟委員報告我們現在我也剛從台東回來上禮拜其實我去那邊考察其實最重要事實上是整個台東那邊的衛生所這邊我們會提出一個新的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
21054.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
21070.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
對 其實期待的就是這樣其實感謝你至少知道花蓮跟台東不一樣那我也希望大家都知道宜蘭 花蓮 台東很不一樣所以在選擇政策上大家都會把它全部當東部可是如果當緯度一分或者是區域一分其實這樣差異還是很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
21071.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
21095.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
台東它的整個總共是154公里從成功到南邊大武那邊我覺得整個這一個區域的分布包括整個北部靠近成功還有台東市還有大武這邊南回這邊我覺得應該都有一些因地制宜不同的策略那這邊我跟委員報告其實最主要是衛生所衛生所這邊我們的整個量能我覺得應該是最重要的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
21096.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
21116.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
謝謝你們知道這樣一個問題所以本席比較期待看到是區域性的一個針對性的強化策略好那最後針對這個部分要請教三個部會那目前原住民的健康就業跟生活風險的這個問題其實分在不同的單位各自推動也缺乏整合那本席認為我們需要原住民族的健康專責機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
21118.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
21135.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
那原住民的健康問題不是只有醫療的問題還包括工作型態交通環境文化差異跟生活條件那這個部分不知道各部會是不是支持來推動設置原住民族健康專責機關作為跨部會整合的平台三個部會是不是可以給本席一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
21136.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
21154.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
跟委員報告就是我們跟衛福部還有原民會對原住民朋友各方面其實都有跨部會在協助當中至於說如何把這個機制做得更smooth更到位或者是推動的更部分這個部分我們也許可以再收集大家的意見來做考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
21154.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
21176.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
那可能在更具體的 其實本席先前有提到就是在這個衛福部先前在討論某一些署的一個設置原住民的平均移民其實在現階段還是相較於一般來講有一個階段性的問題所以事實上在這個原住民的健康署的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
21177.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
21193.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
這個方向是不是可以請你們考量跟討論看看好不好就是針對原住民健康照護的這個部分好嗎好 那也請大家支持一下至少原住民現在的平均營利我們希望能夠稍微及時地趕上好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
21194.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
21198.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
好 謝謝那最後 對不起那各部會請回出了這個園民會園民會我這邊可能做一個提醒那我現在是針對我們在整個家庭財富分配的這個部分要提醒你們注意一下那整個主計處最近的一個公告那整個家庭財富分配的統計那貧富差距也越來越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
21214.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
21228.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
這個問題其實已經很久了但是目前的數據已經從16.8的一個差距擴大到66.9已經算是全國性的問題但是我們通常全國性的問題在原住民的社群裡面就會更加的劇烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
21229.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
21234.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
所以原民會你們在110年的經濟狀況調查原住民的貧富差距也越來越大但是都會區跟原鄉也是差距很大這雖然是當然只是說擴大也比較嚴重像在都會區平均大概96萬5000元但是山地鄉跟平地鄉目前大概差不多是74跟73萬差距很明顯比過去也是擴大很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
21255.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
21282.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
那所以整個資源跟機會的一個分配集中在特定的區域跟族群那變成原住民族內部也有一些新的不平等所以我想要請教一下那針對都會區跟園鄉之間收入的一個差距那園民會是不是有區域均衡的一個政策以免相關的這個資源過度集中在都會那第二個部分是針對原住民族內部貧富差距擴大的問題你們是不是有一個跨部會的整合的策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
21283.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
21301.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
那怎麼來結合產業發展教育培力跟就業的機會從結構面上來進行改善那這個部分 余明慧有沒有比較具體的一些作為好 跟委員報告那剛剛委員提到應該是不但是跨部會也是跨處事的問題我們就從就業教育跟經濟產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
21302.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
21317.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
層面來講我們都是因主因地制宜來去推動相關計畫那在社會福利處的部分就促進就業方案當中也顧及到現在我們都議院地區有已經近60%以上的人口那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
21319.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
21339.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
金巴處的一些產業四年計劃當中也有針對一些我們都議員跟一些相關屏幕差距的部分來去做那所以我們也希望在我們的相關計劃當中可以去把那個屏幕差距縮短然後也把薪資可以縮短目前是有比較具體的嗎還是你們都有預設到這個問題我們都有相關的一個計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
21343.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
21371.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
教育方面因為剛剛有提到一些教育要去做一個因為有30%的一個初再選那個錯學率我們也希望針對這部分來去做處理那總歸來講我們其實在顏名會跟部會當中都是有蠻多的一個跨部會的一個平臺包含是剛剛健康方面有健康政策會那勞動部方面我們有一個一個就業的一個相關平臺這些也都固定在開會我們也會把一些相關各部會之間跟顏住民有關係的一些相關計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
21373.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
21400.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
就是你們已有的會會提供給本席好不好然後本席所談到的這個未來的策進作為那你們有什麼樣一個方向可能也給本席這邊一個回應那因為最近本席也提到在原住民方面不管是都會或是原鄉的一些教育的一個重點那本席可能會會也請你們能夠在這個部分緊密的做一些溝通好那謝謝那最後是我這邊針對兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
21402.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
21419.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
還是針對可能我記得剛才那個盧委員在質詢的時候我沒有聽到一些那個部會比較確切的回應因為盧委員這邊他有提到那個促進原住民的就業獎勵那針對這個勞工的部分那園民會這邊有一些作為但是針對雇主的這個就是保險的這個部分的50%目前還在研議那我想請問一下這究竟是哪一個單位在處責是勞動部嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
21433.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
21452.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
根文報告就我印象所及這部分是之前在談到說原住民朋友的勞工保險那個保費的部分雇主負擔的部分是不是要有一個協助的機制但這個協助的機制目前現階段看起來不太可能從公務機關的預算來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
21454.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
21476.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
那我記得曾經在相應的保險有稍微談過但是相應的保險也目前在法院上也會有一些困難所以最終在這部分如何來做適度的處理我們可能要跟園民會這邊再來持續的討論就我所知道園民會後來有一些替代方案但是是不是可以符合大家的一個期待我們還要再持續的去溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
21477.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
21495.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
所以目前也不太確定主責的一個單位吧是你們嗎就是勞動部如果說到最終是要補助雇主相關的勞保或者是相關保險的費用最終如果決定政策要處理會是勞動部要去處理但是現階段而言因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
21496.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
21515.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
因為包括涉及到經費多少如何去做處理然後在怎麼一個面向去做相應的機制協助那這部分原民會才會是比較專業的單位所以我們在這部分持續都有在一些討論那我們會在持續就這部分再來做一些釐清和了解看有沒有一些機會可以來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
21516.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
21533.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
那就謝謝勞動部那希望未來假設你們主責的話那可能或是你們已有的相關報告在一些困難點那你說適不適合公部門然後怎麼個處理跟一些障礙我想你們應該會有一些記錄那是不是可以提供給本席做一個參考我們回去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
21533.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
21559.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
找一下相應的紀錄啦那因為這部分對勞動部來講我們比較不會直接單純針對特定的族群或特定的對象去提供相應的措施所以勢必要跟原民會做一些協助那包括發動或者說一些具體的影響評估這方面我們跟原民會會一起來再做一些處理那過往的一些相應的軌跡跟紀錄我們再來整理給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
21561.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
21589.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
謝謝 那既然這樣 本席這邊有兩個東西其實有一個東西也是跟你們一來的時候其實教育部跟你們也是都有一些說對方的一個主責啦那我們這邊提兩個東西喔 一個也是呼籲剛才吳麗華委員這邊提的那麼移工對原住民就影響了一個衝擊那是不是你們最後到底是勞動部或者是園民會這邊可以有一個具體的這個結果 截至目前為止這個衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
21590.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
21617.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
正負面我想應該是要有一些評估嘛這部分我們跟原民會一起來處理那剛剛原民的處長有講他們在那個計畫裡面會去做沒有 你是在一個大計畫裡面會針對這個部分做一個評估可是本席要知道的是說我們先知道這個問題在哪裡然後你再計畫再施行而不是計畫施行之後你先把這個東西又包在裡面你如果不知道原因那可能原因問題只會越來越大所以本席提到的是一個比較單一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
21619.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
21640.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
究竟移工對原住民的影響有多大或者是正負面我覺得這個部分要先獨立出來我們先了解問題才知道如何解決問題那本席有聽到您剛才講的就是說目前有一個健康相關的計畫你要把它放進去做本席是覺得這樣有點雜本席要先知道那移工目前對原住民的影響在正負面來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
21640.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
21659.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
有哪一些狀態然後最後那個也是勞動部這邊本席一直要不然你們自己去跟教育部說啦可能也跟園民會商量本席不希望園民會到最後就是你們又大雜匯因為聽起來你會大雜匯的一個處理也就是那麼這個原住民的這個學生在 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
21660.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
21689.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
原專班之後呢那請問到社會上他的一個就業的他就業的形態到底是什麼我覺得目前你們各部會之間沒有沒有把它連結起來就是自己知道可能有一些數額可是我們沒有辦法知道這個系統性的狀態是什麼所以包括原住民的學生畢業以後就在原專班畢業以後那他就業的職場那勞動部你們說教育部做教育部認為勞動部要做其實本席已經兩年了還沒有拿到相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
21690.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
21712.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
到最後不會又通通都是原民會做吧所以這個你們是不是研議一下我覺得今天有三個問題啦第一個就是有關於這個雇主的這個保險的這個補助那第二個部分呢就是原住民族的這個這個就業移工對原住民族就業的一個影響然後第三個部分是本席兩年都沒有拿到相關資料因為你們各部會都說其他人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
21713.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
21722.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
其他的部會所以到現在沒有一個部會真的能夠主責所以就是原住民的學生在學校學習尤其特別是原專班然後到了這個就業職場上的一個的這個數量還有數額還有比例這是本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
21729.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
21756.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
要知道的這樣我們才能就政策面來做一個檢討嘛好不好那這部分看起來所有單位都會找園民會可是希望園民會你們可不可以知道問題有些時候你們的量能可能沒有辦法去涵蓋到社會的整體面所以剛才那個問題先知道問題是什麼那我們再從你們的計畫政策裡面去做處理這樣才不會一堆問題都包進來結果到最後處理的並不是那麼有效度好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
21757.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
21780.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
那也請勞動部跟這個相關的單位今天我們也有這個衛福部那針對本席所講的健康的這個問題可不可以針對原住民的健康那我們有一個獨立的單位來做處理至少把我們的平均餘命提高到比較接近這一般值那其他就是剛才本席所講的我們先找出問題然後再去處理這個問題的一個應對好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
21783.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
21806.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
好 跟委員再補充一下就是我們原住民的就業狀況調查當中其實有把那個外勞的那個影響那個數據是有放進來但是影響評估是沒有對影響評估這個東西有點系統性也有一些連接性你們真的是要跟那個勞動部這邊來更比較縝密的一個連結那才會知道比較細節性的一個問題在哪裡好嗎好的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
21807.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
21823.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
好 謝謝我們林倩熙委員質詢接下來請侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員不在我們接著請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在我們接著請楊耀委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
21832.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
21856.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
謝謝主席主席請一下勞動部次長吧請陳次長楊委員好次長好是次長我先前就已經有初步跟洪部長討論過有關降低加油幼童可聘僱外籍幫傭資格限制的鬆綁的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
21859.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
21880.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
接下來也繼續跟你做相關的探討我們從去年8月份開始實施放寬80歲以上免82票就可以聘僱外籍看護移工即將上路的政策是降低家有幼童也可以聘僱外籍幫傭的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
21882.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
21910.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
那社會各界大概最有疑慮的就是會不會有移工挑工作的狀況那先請教次長從先前我們放官80歲以上免巴士量表以後看護移工的勞動市場有沒有產生移工挑工作的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
21912.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
21939.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
這部分我們當然持續在做密切的注意我們也做一些相應的處理那其實移工最重要的問題是在於他的勞動條件如何可以適度的去做提升那至於去年80歲以上免評的情況出現那個大院通過之後我們在輕重的部分做了一些分流那重症的家庭基本上面我們都讓他一天之內就可以完成相應的審查一天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
21940.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
21942.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
我們在國內推介都會一天就完成審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
21949.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
21974.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
我們審查的部分所以我們盡量在這樣一個政策放寬的情況底下不要影響到重症家庭的需求其實當初就是要80歲以上免巴士量表可以聘戶移工大家最大的疑慮就是這個政策也已經上路半年多了也就是說次長現在覺得並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
21976.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
22005.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
並沒有產生移工挑工作我們會盡量降低這樣一個可能的發生你們怎麼降低第一個部分當然是我們在重症家庭會優先然後第二個部分就是說在國內如果移工要轉換雇主的時候我們在優先排序上面還是會以重症家庭優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
22006.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
22019.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
那次長你們有沒有掌握到移工到了正正家庭可以工作多久有沒有這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
22025.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
22050.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
因為我們要觀察一個政策必須要從多面向去做觀察那剛剛剛好次長就回答到讓我想到這一點我們是不是應該要去我們回過頭再去看相關的資料因為移工基本上面我們在在聘僱是一次三年嘛那到底三年期滿的比例有多少有沒有辦法期滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
22051.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
22068.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
期滿中間如果沒有期滿就轉出是因為看護的長者不幸往生還是有其他的相關的問題我們可以再做資料上的大數案對這個我們假如說要真的很嚴肅面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
22069.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
22084.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
有沒有移工挑工作的狀況產生必須要去研究他未滿三年就離職的實際原因我們才能夠做政策的調整好不好所以我在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
22086.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
22112.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
提出一些問題你們假如說在這裡沒有答的很完整我基本上不大會為難你們可是你們回去真的必須要把它當作一個問題來認真面對好不好那現在我還是要提醒勞動部缺工是全球性的所以呢大概全球也就掀起了搶人大戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
22114.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
22138.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
有媒體報告就是日本跟韓國併顧外籍移工其實在相關的配套利多政策的配套部分不管是薪資或者是取得永居的限制都優於台灣那會不會台灣這幾年之所以不缺工是因為台灣這幾年台幣相較於日幣韓元是強勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
22144.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
22162.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
我大概一個數據提供給次長相對疫情爆發的時候台幣對韓元的漲幅將近三成對日幣的漲幅大概38%可是呢所以也因為台幣強勢所以台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
22169.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
22187.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
目前在招工比較沒有那麼困難可是匯率是變動的假如匯率有翻轉勞動部有沒有什麼比較長遠一點的政策對於吸引移工的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
22188.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
22210.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
根本包括就移工的部分確實陳主委員所說全世界都在搶人日韓跟我們也都在競逐當中那移工會選擇日韓或選擇台灣當然經濟因素是一個那其他的因素也都有那這部分會整體的來看那以台灣目前來看我們對於這樣一個情況大概做幾件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
22210.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
22233.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
第一個就是說持續的提升相關的勞動條件然後第二個部分是去擴大來源國還有持續去優化國內雇主在人才移工招募的一些相應的過程那第三個就是讓外國的移工朋友進來台灣的時候得到比較友善的對待讓他的勞動條件可以比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
22234.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
22248.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
比較可以得到適度的保障那這部分我們持續的跟來源國的政府都還有一直持續在精進相應的作為剛剛次長講的就是有一些必須要雇主配合有一些必須要來源國 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
22250.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
22265.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
現在現有的勞動力輸出國來做協商那有關擴大來源國的部分這個就是全部主動權都在勞動部這裡你們現在方向是怎麼樣接觸了多少國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
22265.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
22293.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
跟委員報告就是第一個部分我們在原來的移工來源國除了最早的移工之外我們現在在處理跨國技術人力的部分那跟幾個來源國都持續的在洽談當中也得到積極正面的回應那我們在菲律賓已經今年1月份去設了勞工組那目前正在處理相應的事務那第二個就是說去菲律賓設的是不是就是跨國勞動力延展中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
22294.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
22312.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
跨國勞動力延攬中心是在台北這一邊的專案辦公室在那邊我們是在我們駐馬尼拉經濟文化辦事處裡面在我們的外交處裡面專設一個勞工組我們有派駐人員現在在那邊積極協調相應的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
22313.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
22334.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
一個兩個兩個可是菲律賓本來就是我們的來源國我現在講的他那個部分是原來是只有移工我們現在要擴大輸入相應的技術人力那第二個部分當然就是之前過去大家持續有在討論包括印度、柬埔寨我現在講的是這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
22337.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
22355.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
這些其實外管有一些持續的評估其實包括但不限於這幾個國家但是這東西因為必須要涉及到國對國的基本的一個談判的understanding所以如果有比較具體的進展會跟大院來報告像印度基本上過去就簽了MOU所以相應的部分在積極的接洽當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
22361.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
22370.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
時間也到了我向來不大喜歡佔用大家太多時間那相關的問題我們還是後續再來做討論不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
22373.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
22396.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
部裡面也知道全球都在搶人所以有關勞動力的輸入怎麼保障已經進來的移工可以有一個很好的工作條件跟環境怎麼向外在原有的輸出國 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
22398.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
22422.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
增加招募的能力也好或者是再找新的勞動力輸出國家也好這個是部裡面必須要趕快去做的好不好好謝謝委員提醒我會朝這方向來努力好謝謝次長謝謝主席主席辛苦了好謝謝楊耀文委員質詢我是全院最後一個質詢的主席辛苦了好謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
22428.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
22453.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
本日會議詢問全部結束委員高金素梅 委員習新穎 委員林儲殷 所聽順便質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢問完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內以順便答覆委員領要求期限者從期所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
22454.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
22455.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
本次會議到此結束現在散會 |