| IVOD_ID |
17311 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17311 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-30T08:33:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-30T11:46:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:12:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc84a0a9d3ab318e796149170e17472c733e07a0549bf20b511a80eafa5f58a6c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署就「法院安全秩序維護與法警職權行使」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:43 - 11:46:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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報告委員會初期委員八人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會各位大家早安那我們就現在開會首先我們就先進行報告事項那麼先請宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1761.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1788.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第五會期司法及法治委員會第三次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年三月二十五日星期三上午九十至十一時二十七分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳昭資委員等十三人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等十人列席官員行政院人事行政總處人事長蘇俊榮等人主席莊昭吉委員瑞雄報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1790.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1813.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
邀请行政院人事行政总处人事长列席报告业务改框及立法计划并被质询本次会议有委员陈昭资委员等11人提出质询委员蔡其昌等4人提出书面质询决定一报告节询答完毕二委员质询时要求提供相关资料或以书面答复者请相关机关尽速送交个别委员及本会宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1815.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1841.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好謝謝那麼接下來我們就先介紹今天到場的委員陳昭之委員好那麼還有這個我們今天到場的官員有司法院的高金智高秘書長歡迎第一次參加我們的司委會好謝謝請坐那另外還有法務部的檢察司的張曉雯張司長內政部警政署警察刑事警察局副局長林副局長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1844.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1870.864 |
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那其餘沒有介紹的列席代表就請參院名單不再逐一的介紹並且列入公報記錄那本次議程的排定是法院安全秩序維護與法警職權行使的專題報告及詢答那麼我們現在就先開始那麼現在就先進行報告那每位發言時間三分鐘首先先有請司法院的高金之秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1879.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1895.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主席各位委員各位先生各位女士很高興今天代表司法院來列席貴委員會一報告就法院安全秩序維護與法警職權行使進行專題報告首先我非常感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1896.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1921.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
立法院讓我們有機會就法警的議題在立法院提出我們的困難這一次滋擾事件我想是應該是發生在去年會受到大家再次重視是發生在去年7月在這個台中地院發生了一次那今年又這個3月又在台中地院發生了一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1922.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1938.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
其實這個關於法院的安全秩序其實各法院都有他們的維護方案首先就是要落實法庭區入口安全檢查加強法庭安全維護檢視人犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1940.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1964.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
體檢的洞穴還有要加強法警教育訓練地席舉辦安全演練然後最重要的是自己也要預防有什麼危險要發生你要擬定事先的防護措施其實各法院都有這樣的規定很可惜的是這個台中地院在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1966.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1994.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
去年七月還有在今年三月的時候我們必須承認他並沒有落實他自己的規定其實這個規定都存在的他們也有預先預警希望各律師公會或者是當事人能夠有安全餘力能夠來事先據狀或者是電話通報書記官法警室讓法院可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1995.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2016.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
預先的進行維安處置可惜這一次他們雖然有此情報可是沒有落實他們事先的維安處置才會發生這一次臨場有民眾施暴的事件那在此因為時間的關係我想要向 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2017.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2041.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
委員們報告其實在這個事件裡面我們最嚴重的問題是我們的法警他現場的執法警力不足還有應變延遲就遲疑為什麼會應變遲疑呢因為法組法關於法警的職務並沒有明確的規定法警對於他們在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2043.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2058.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
是不是可以使用強制力他會有點質疑其實這個問題從大概有法警以來就一直備受外界質疑我們法警的強制力是不是有法源依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2060.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2084.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
還有另外一個就是法官在法庭指揮的時候過於保守那我想這個是其來有自因為法官總是希望民眾或者當事人在法庭能夠趕快開完庭就好了不要再延置所以會有這種保守事項那在此跟各位委員報告除了要精進我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2085.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2099.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
法庭安全的要確實執行以外我們也必須要希望能夠修法就法組法的部分關於法警的職權要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2100.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2118.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
相當規定讓法警認為我行使職權是依法行事不會有任何遲疑那另外關於法官在法庭上這個保守的過於保守我們也會在尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2119.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2136.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
審判長訴訟指揮維護審判獨立下我們希望能夠制定一個法庭內脫序行為的訴訟指揮指引讓法官們來參考我想就這件事件是讓我們深深思考我們也必須積極的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2138.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2159.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
修正法院處置法積極的來讓我們法官們有更好的訴訟指揮指引讓他們有勇氣我必須說是有勇氣的來指揮訴訟然後能夠對法庭上的脫序行為給予必要的處置以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2162.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2163.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝秘書長那麼接下來我們有請法務部的張曉雯檢察司司長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2173.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2201.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席各位委員各位女士各位先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會就檢察署安全秩序維護與法警的職權行使進行專題報告並備質詢首先感謝貴委員會對於本議題的關心針對近期發生於法院區域內的肢體衝突事件本部也高度重視司法場域的安全與律師的職業環境雖然該案發生於法院但本部也全面盤點檢察機關維安的配置以下檢要報告四項重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2202.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2223.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一有关侦察庭的实体防护与动线管理目前各地检署侦察庭都设有法台作为实体的区隔避免冲突多数庭内采取双动线的设计司法人员与当事人进出分离此外法台下也配有紧急铃能够第一时间直通警务中心确保法警人力及时的到场支援第二侦察场域的秩序维护规范 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2224.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2240.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
檢察官對於偵察庭有素用指揮權對於妨礙秩序或有不當行為者檢察官可命退出偵察庭必要時也可以採取偵察的策略調整例如針對高風險的案件如家暴或暴力案件錯開雙方當事人的開庭的日期以及停薰的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2240.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2268.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那庭訓結束後落實分別退庭必要時由法警陪同律師或受害者先行離去以確保不被尾隨第三 法警職權行使與全域的維安法警受檢察官的指揮維護鎮下庭的秩序在法警的器械使用部分是依照台高檢署訂定的疫情注意事項由法警平時佩戴警棍遇有執行職務遭受到威脅等事由時的使用警棍若因解送中二人犯或執行特殊任務得簽准佩戴槍械與防衛他人生命身體遭受危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2269.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2288.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
非使用槍械不足以保護之必要時的依法的使用之那有關現行犯逮捕的部分若偵查區域發生暴力行為在符合刑事訴訟法現行犯的規範下法警得依法進行逮捕場域危安部分各地檢署也落實門禁的管制從源頭阻絕危險物品的進入第四在研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2289.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2318.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
与侧镜作为部分本部已于115年3月26日发函要求各检察机关确实检视机关的空间配置上下点的动线规划及现场安全维护措施并提出以下进行作为第一提升预警能力针对高风险的案件进行标注主动增派法警的随停戒护并留意开庭前后的场域安全第二确实落实安全保障开庭时若有相关威胁事项法警受检察官指挥会立即介入处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2319.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2346.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
提醒結束必要時啟動安全的陪同機制第三有關證據保全依法嚴辦若發生暴力衝突一定迅速截取影像保全證據有檢察官從嚴從速偵辦捍衛法治的尊嚴司法場域不容暴力侵犯每一位所有參與者的人身安全都應獲得充分保障本部隊以藐視公權力公然在司法機關行使暴力者絕對採取零容忍態度將依法追究刑事責任以上報告進行主席及各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2349.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2373.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 謝謝張次長的報告那機關代表都報告完畢了那相關書面內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那現在我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答的時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半截止發言登記但是我們就先請登記第一位的陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2380.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2382.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝主席 有請秘書長好 請秘書長好 高秘書長早你剛剛的報告我有仔細聽不過我有些議題還是想跟您做一些確認秘書長依照法院組織法第91條法庭上的秩序是由審判長來負責維持那麼我想再請問法警在現場的作用是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2410.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2420.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他要不要接受審判長還有法官的指揮呢請你簡單回答 謝謝好 謝謝委員法警在法庭上絕對是要接受審判長的指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2422.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2445.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那當然剛剛我們現在剛剛你也提到什麼法警因為有不明確他的職責還是規範不明確那法官有時候過於保守等一下我們就是下面會衍生這些問題因為大多數人都認為這個司法是正義最後一道防線所以依照這個概念來說法庭無論是這個刑而上的秩序或是這個刑而下的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2446.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2449.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
建築啦 牆體等等基本上我們認為這個地方應該是要最安全最有法律尊嚴的地方那建台中這個地怨發生了尤其是最近這一次這個等於是這個被告女性被告毆打這個全國律師公會理事長加上民眾這個事件那大部分人會先疑惑會先想說那為什麼法警在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2469.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2486.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是卻沒有進行逮捕就是我先提出幾個問題就是說這個是大部分人會這樣想法警在嘛沒有進行逮捕那我要先請問的是由誰來啟動這個指揮法警在現場要進行逮捕但是在法院包括庭內或庭外麻煩秘書長說清楚 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2489.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2508.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
簡單的回答 庭內鋼工委員報告絕對是庭總審判長的指揮那庭外的部分也就是其實罰警他負有維持秩序可是這一件裡面當然其實現場這位女士她等同於現刑犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2509.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2527.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
老實說我必須承認我們法警任何人都可以逮捕現行犯只是他真的遲疑了那另外一個如果除了現行犯以外的強制力的謝謝秘書長因為有關現行犯部分我稍後再跟你再繼續討論因為大家對現行犯可能在定義上有遲疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2531.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2551.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那難道會因為當時如果沒有法官或是說院內的長官來指揮所以他就不能制止就不能進行逮捕嗎因為我想這部分請您說清楚因為如果說是法定的不明確也不能推給法警那這個部分還是請秘書長再回答如果沒有人去啟動這個指揮法警不能主動來做嗎其實如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2554.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2570.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
依照我們現行的做法法警是可以自己就可以啟動他當時是真的是過於遲疑那這個過於遲疑是因為你的規範不明確呢還是因為剛剛你也報告到這一點沒有強拘等等沒有沒有 最重要是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2570.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2590.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為法警會受到外界一致質疑在法庭以外我講法庭以外法庭以外的部分他必須要因我們規定是自己要啟動可是因為外界對於法組法的質疑真的讓我們法警們所以這個就是我們在討論的地方他除了現行犯以外他為什麼會質疑就是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2592.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2611.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
就是因為法源的關係然後外界質疑的關係造成法警對自己的質疑這個是最大的因素我瞭解你現在的說法那請你稍後我是不是請這個張司長這個檢察司長來說明如果說同樣的事情發生在地檢署你們會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2612.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2613.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
檢察官指揮檢察官指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2643.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2662.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
現在就是有關現行犯案就請你稍微我再來請教秘書長秘書長請你看一下這個台中地院事後及時的澄清新聞稿台中地院說什麼呢因傷害罪屬告訴哪論罪第一個理由且供給日無理事長已經立即報警第二個理由第三事發當下法警無法判斷他是否受傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2663.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2683.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
第四所以還是以維持法院秩序為先請問秘書長你能夠接受這個說法或辯解嗎真的很抱歉我自己也不太能夠接受所以對於這件事情我們也跟台中地院那個王院長我有很跟他的仔細的講清楚可能他 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2684.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2695.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
可是我必須跟委員報告他這個新聞卡這種寫法是他問了法警說你為什麼沒有當場這個制止他說法警認為這樣他寫的是法警認為這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2700.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2715.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
衛一線行為 這是放在你們的官網上喔那個秘書長 這個是很嚴重因為如果是這樣的方法 又灌在官網上的這個澄清稿那以後大家就可以告訴你來論罪 大家先打一場啊只要沒有鬧出人命啊 沒有人提告那是不是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2716.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2741.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
也沒有人指揮這個法警那法院大家就在一旁觀看就變成這樣啊所以這一次這是蠻嚴重的所以這個希望真的我們是非常的抱歉說當初我對王院長他這個新聞稿他這個協訪我希望他不是只有在台中地院啦我們希望這個檢討還是要全部的啦那我再請教秘書長請你明確的說在法律上他是現行犯嗎在法律上 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2743.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2745.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我先請秘書長看這個回歸法理 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2760.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2787.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
請看司法院32院第2505號解釋這邊解釋文寫得非常清楚告訴乃論罪的現行犯適用刑訴第88條是現行犯逮捕規定換言之告訴乃論罪的現行犯一樣是現行犯適用現行犯逮捕的規定這就不關是對到律師有沒有受傷問題而是法警本來就有逮捕的權利但是司法院跟台中紀念好像忘記了這號解釋 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2789.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2812.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
報告委員還是平常都沒有在用不需要用沒有沒有沒有絕對要用當初真的我要跟委員報告因為王院長說他的寫法是法警的想法所以我們接受了他這個想法法警的想法正如官網上的一個澄清稿如果是這樣引起大家的誤會我很抱歉真的是任何現行犯是不問何人都可以代表真的是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2814.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2833.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
請教張司長法務部是司法行政最高主管機關告訴乃論罪的現行犯法院的長官或法官到底能不能指揮法警來進行及時逮捕只要是現行犯的話不論任何人都可以逮捕這個就非常清楚現行犯就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2835.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2853.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這市長你現在說可以但是沒錯但是現在連你們家的高檢署2025年10月發布的法律宣導也是直接打臉遞願嘛你看過這個文宣嗎高檢署說得很明白告訴哪論罪的陷阱犯可以逮捕因為告訴哪論只是判決中的訴訟要件這個市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2855.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2871.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那到底要不要逮捕一個現行犯我們回歸到當初立法的理由一個是保全證據一個就是防止行為人逃亡那再來就是維護公共秩序那當然其中這個維護公共秩序應該是適用本案的一個理由逮捕是為了維護公共秩序並保護人身的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2872.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2886.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
結果高檢署的法學嘗試好像還勝過勝過地院的應變能力所以市長如果地檢署發生同樣事情那地檢署署長或是檢察官如果他沒有去指揮法警抓人那您會不會懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2888.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2905.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我想那個相關的現場狀況都要依照現場的這個市政來做一些判斷那有關這個臺中地院的這個回應那我們是尊重臺中地院的回應那至於本部的話呢就是都有強化這個法警的相關教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2907.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2933.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
如果沒有人去指揮的時候法警能不能做一些採取一些行動這個部分請你們要釐清這個責任當然我強調法國要明確也不能讓基層的法警受到委屈那我再請問秘書長為什麼台中紀念長官法官可以袖手旁觀那法警不敢抓人那還用這個荒謬的理由你剛剛有盡量解釋說他是用這個法警的說法但是這樣也不對啊對不對你現在在官網就是代表司法院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2934.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2963.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
最令人生氣不好意思我再講一下這不是突發剛剛你在報告中有提到這是蓄意攻擊為什麼我這樣講呢因為這個女生是這個女性她是有前科的她攻擊過其他的女律師這不是秘密因為你從大眾從一般新聞就查得到那既然該名當事人他有這個前科有暴力傾向而且對法律法律專業人有敵意很深的敵意那為什麼這次開庭台中議員毫無做預防措施也沒有這個足夠的警力也沒有預先警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2963.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2983.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
就現場一塌糊塗應變一塌糊塗你剛剛稍微報告報告到了但是事實上應該都沒有落實啦你雖然有講到這個部分對跟委員報告確實沒有落實你說醫院他們都有規定可是你剛剛說標示但是事實上就沒有嘛就沒有嘛就讓事情就這樣發生沒有沒有跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2984.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3006.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
沒有事先防範是他們沒有落實可是現場的警力是有到就是沒有逮捕所以警力是足夠的對於這個有前科的有前科的這個暴力被告已經有發生了是不是說這個那這還是讓它發生嘛所以這個要檢討的事情蠻多的台中立院真的沒有落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3006.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3022.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
因為在法院上如果我們說談司法改革如果連律師的人身安全身邊都沒有辦法收到保障那真的要談後未來其他的事就是太遙遠了可是可以跟委員報告台中法院發生這件事以後應該是三天後就連續連續連續大概就是在積極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3027.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3038.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
教導法警安全管理機制啦 職務訓練啦應變原則他們就是一定要落實是最重要的謝謝秘書長還有司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3053.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3074.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那麼由於議事錄先前已經去宣讀完畢了還沒有確定那麼現在我們就先確定議事錄那麼請問各位上次會議的議事錄有沒有遺漏或錯誤沒有遺漏或錯誤的話我們議事錄就確定謝謝再來請那個林沛翔委員代替我當主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3091.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3093.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好 有請翁曉琳委員開始質詢好 那麼首先有請那個高祕書長好 有請祕書長好 謝謝祕書長我想這次我們安排 市委會安排有關於法警職權形式還有法院安全秩序的專題報告呢 當然也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3120.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3134.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
因為先前才發生在台中地院這個不幸的事件這個台中律師公會的理事長被當時人掌撥那其實這個影片畫面大家看了之後都覺得很震驚那麼怎麼可能會發生這樣的狀況而且當時法警都在旁邊那麼有沒有適時的應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3141.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3155.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個採取就是警棍來制止這樣的行為或是有更積極的這個作為那麼可是大家看到的其實狀況就是說法警基本上沒有太多的積極的作為剛剛秘書長其實也講了認為說這次可能是法警在遲疑他在面對這樣的狀況的時候遲疑所以沒有辦法緊急的應變所以呢在這邊的話本席也想要提出的就是事實上我有去查過一些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3168.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3194.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那麼立法院在第九屆委員的時候就是第四會期當時也曾經辦過一場叫做法庭安全的公聽會那當時為什麼會辦理這個法庭安全公聽會呢是因為在106年那時候其實陸陸續續也發生了好幾起在法院裡面發生的一個暴力的事件所以當時那時候的主辦的召委應該是蔡易瑜委員所以召開了這個法庭安全公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3197.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3210.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那也邀請了很多的專家學者然後以及法警工會的代表都有在現場那麼都有在談到有關於法警的一些職權行使的問題那包含譬如說編制員額不足職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3214.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3230.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
的依據不明還有法警的申請制度也僵化法警的人力組成老化還有法警的值班報酬過低等等這些問題那麼事實上到現在已經10年了那不知道司法院在這段時間裡面到底有沒有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3231.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3250.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這個更積極的作為怎麼樣去改善現在法警職權行使不明的狀況那麼因為呢如果說法警的這個他的整個的能力沒有辦法提升的話那當然一定會影響到法院的安全所以是不是可以請秘書長來告訴我們就是這十年來到底司法院做了些什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3251.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3265.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
首先跟委員報告謝謝委員非常關心我們法警都會非常高興其實我們在108年就曾經就在法組法就這個法警職權行使把它明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3266.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3290.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
可惜那次就送進也送進大院因為屆時不連續就退回那當然我們後續就沒有再提出來那另外一個這是第一個法治部分那另外一個關於法警的職等陳儒委員剛所說在公聽會大家也提出來了其實我們也很努力可是這會牽涉到整個政府職等的問題老實說我們也蠻挫折的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3292.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3315.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那同樣的薪資也是一樣就好像書記官的薪資一樣要提高又牽涉到全國公務人員的薪資問題所以我們也很挫折我們真正最精進的方法罰警確實不夠各位如果去法院看只有刑庭有罰警民庭絕對沒有罰警可是我們不能說民庭沒有危險會發生可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3316.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3343.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
因為刑事案件他的張力比較大我們還是所有法警要投注在這個區塊所以民庭的部分老實說啦就是見警慮讓法警出出入入讓民眾看到知道法院有法警老實說民庭沒有警力那我們唯一能夠用的就是保全因為我們人力真的不足我們就用保全可是保全他只能單純的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3345.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3365.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
維護秩序好了解了那麼其實呢我想這個罰警人力不足的問題這一定是要解決了這個就像是剛剛秘書長講的在每個法庭裡面他可能都會有遇到就是有他的行為或他情緒不穩定的當事人發生了這個不管是暴力的行為或是有一些緊急應變的狀況的時候真的是需要罰警來維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3368.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3386.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那剛剛有講到其實因為一般的老百姓其實對於法警跟警察其實搞不清楚大家會以為法警是警察但其實法警不是警察那麼法警如果說按照你們現在法院組織法的規定的話他是歸屬於司法行政職務他更類似於像是一個司法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3387.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3397.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
在性質的公務員而且法警目前的受訓看起來只有四個月不管是專業訓練加實務訓練事實上只有四個多月然後你們平時訓練實施計畫目前只要求至少四十個小時但是我有去看了你們的所列的訓練計畫的項目事實上這樣子目前的規劃夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3410.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3428.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
而且對於整個緊急應變還有就是整個法警他在面對這樣有暴力的狀況緊急應變狀況的時候呢他的這個實際上的擒拿的技能或是他反制的技能這個部分的話平常是由誰來指導是由我們的警政署的教練去指導嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3428.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3455.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
跟委員報告當然最主要是法院自己要去指導那我們會請警政署的人員來協助就是請拿這種專技部分可是我可以跟委員報告其實各法院都會要求法警一定要就像我講的要常常運動他要維持他的體力一定要維持體力不好意思我先打斷一下我是不是待會可以請那個林副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3456.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3460.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
主席跟委員報告我在警大服務的時候我們罰警班都會到警大安排正常的課程來訓練訓練的話像有勤拿、柔道、警技這些都會加以訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3483.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3508.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那他們的標準就是他們的訓練的程度要達到什麼樣的標準呢如果說今天有一個身體強壯的一個當事人或是他可能本身也學一些功夫的話有可能制服嗎法警有可能制服嗎跟委員報告啦當然我們在警大四年四年全部都要上樓刀而且每個禮拜四小時那個程度當然是不一樣所以為什麼司法警察跟我們的法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3509.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3530.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們在111年的時候因為這種問題司法機關跟我們警政署簽訂一個一個受理的一些進入司法機關的程序那通常就是我們跟法警室還有我們線上巡邏跟我們勤務中心那大概通報通報了以後我們10接受接受報案了以後我們勤務中心會馬上跟法警室聯繫線上巡邏不過就是說你們這樣的聯繫中間還是會有一段時間是耽擱的那其實呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3535.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3563.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
現在就是說也有另外一種想法就是說有沒有可能法警未來全部都是改由像是由警政署這裡編制專門的警察然後就直接擔任在法院裡面駐守的法警就像是立法院我們有諸位警隊也是由警政署派保六等等來有這個編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3564.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3586.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以我們尊重司法機關最後的決定我們請求權力配合好 我認為說這個其實可以去思考一下有沒有這個可能性另外就是說是對於這個法警職權行使法的立法看起來我覺得還是有這個必要性否則的話現在因為蠻多專家學者有提到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3587.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3603.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對於法警的職權目前是不清楚的因為他職權不明所以至於法警他在真的什麼時機他必須要去制止他也覺得很惶恐萬一他做不好可能又會被懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3603.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3631.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
等等的所以這部分話可能也請司法院再思考是不是應該要盡速的也要提出法警的職權行使法還有本席也希望能夠了解就是近十年來就從106年之後到現在到底在法院有發生多少起的這樣的暴力事件之後也可能要請司法院再提供給我一份相關的資料好嗎好的請林副局長可以先回座接下來本席還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3632.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3655.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
事情我們知道其實大法官在上禮拜五他又做了一個新的憲法判決好115年的憲派制三號判決這次的憲法判決是針對邵氏法第十五條的後段而違憲那麼我想就是這個五人大法官他們到現在已經做成了四項憲法判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3656.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3676.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那另外三位没有参与的大法官基本上他们都在例子都有提出所谓的不同意这个宪法判决的意见书那么面对而且一再的主张这个五人大法官他们的宪法法庭组成是违法的有缺陷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3677.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3701.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
面臨到這樣的一個狀況我想請問司法院院長到底有沒有請總統儘速提名大法官因為現在司法院院長是大法官兼司法院院長現在司法院院長代理院長是謝明揚大法官他有沒有曾經請求賴清德總統要儘速提名大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3703.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3730.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那因為大院長有沒有請求他個人的事情我也不便回答那可是我整體上可以回答委員的就是說因為提名權是在總統而且這是憲法保留的那以我們大院長的職務職位來講對於這個總統是不是要行使憲法賦予的提名權以及何時行使我們本院是應該要尊重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3731.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3759.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
是 可是這已經是構成一個憲法的危機了嘛對 它竟然是一個憲政的危機那麼更何況現在這個大法官是兼任司法院的院長那麼在院長一直不出缺的情況之下那又是由大法官來代理司法院院長那事實上會影響到整個司法院的院務的運作包含人事的安排啊 調動的等等啊所以呢 事實上我覺得憲法法庭然後來自於司法院都應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3760.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3785.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
正式的行文或是正式的公開要發表公開的是個聲明請求賴清德總統要儘速提名大法官依照我們憲法訴訟法的這個規定本來他的要求就是要三個月之內吧兩個月之內就要必須要提名新任的大法官那麼大法官現在這個接二連三連三連四連五然後陸陸續續又做出了這個看起來是有明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3787.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3806.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
違憲違法瑕疵的憲法判決這也會影響到未來基層的法院是不是應該要遵守大法官所作的憲法判決這真的是一個嚴重的憲政僵局那本席是希望秘書長可以把本席的期許或要求那待會給 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3808.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3833.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
謝明洋代理院長請他一定要盡速的請賴清德總統來提名大法官現在不是說立法院沒有審而是他根本沒有提名人選這造成這樣的憲政僵局其實國人看不下去對於法界來講其實也是造成非常非常嚴重的影響這個觀感非常的不好好不好 可以請秘書長把本席的意見帶回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3834.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3847.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好的OK那就謝謝好那我們就是請司法院提供的資料就麻煩再來一個禮拜之內提供給本席好謝謝好謝謝翁小玲委員好我們接下來請林沛翔委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3864.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3875.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
好主席有請高秘書長慢慢來好請高秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3880.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3905.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
高明署長我今天主要談兩個議題一個發生在法院裡面一個發生在社會上面其實都同時都指向同一個問題我們的司法制度到底有沒有跟上現實呢先講我們今天最主要的主題就是有關法警的事情那台中地方法院一位當事人當場甩了律師公會理事長一巴掌重點不是在巴掌本身而是旁邊有法警啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3906.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3911.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那罰警的反應不是制止 也不是壓制 而是安撫 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3913.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3936.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這畫面有點讓人錯亂我必須這樣說法院裡面發生暴力行為最冷靜的不是制度是打人的人最溫柔的反而是法警那我就想請教司法院現在法警的SOP是什麼是先勸再說還是先安撫再評估還是要看對方情緒穩不穩定決定要不要執法甚至一個比較現實的問題如果今天被打的不是律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3937.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3960.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
是法官是檢察官那縣長的處置會不會還是如此的溫馨呢還是說司法體系裡面有所謂的身份的排序這問題不回答清楚外界很難不懷疑我們的執法標準是一致的還是有彈性的講得更直接一點現在法警的問題是不能處理還是不敢處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3961.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3978.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
如果是不能就表示制度設計是有問題如果是不敢就是訓練跟授權出了問題那兩者都非常嚴重法院是最後一道防線如果連法院裡的基本秩序都守不住那人民走進來是尋求正義還是參加風險體驗呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3982.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4000.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以我這邊具體請教三點第一是否該全面檢討法院的維安機制第二是否強化法警現場的應變跟執法訓練第三是否建立可以明確執行的現場處理標準而不是靠臨場感覺請秘書長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4005.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4023.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
其實跟委員報告其實所有標準都已經訂立我剛剛就講了第一個我們一定要預防危險發生第二個在現場的時候法警應該第一個維持秩序的時候當有這種暴力發生的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4025.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4044.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
應該我們撇開法組法的法源依據就我們內部的規定法警是可以制止的我們內部規定法警是可以制止的那這一件發生我們真的也是司法院還有這個各法院都是深深的在必須檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4045.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4064.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
最重要的檢討就是一定要落實執行其實法警我們給他教育訓練很多了可是為什麼他不能把它當成他的DNA來當場反映出來為什麼會有這種遲疑是我們現在請各院務必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4066.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4094.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
讓法警要有這種本能的反應當然要依照比例原則所以跟委員報告那當然我們現在最重要的強化就是一定要落實再多的規定都沒有用其實我們真的規定多如流毛可是很可惜在這個事件裡面竟然沒有把規定落實出來這是我們最要檢討的地方所以因為規定多如流毛所以第一線的人員有點是用猜的在執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4094.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4121.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
不是不是不是 是這個意思嗎不是不是 他們也知道那老實講一巴掌直接轟過去了然後法警說不要這樣好不好這個你覺得如果是在我們的法我記得我們的法律體系好像常常採用在美國那美國的法律體系如果這個嫌犯還是當事人直接給律師一巴掌那法警會坐在那邊完全說你不要這樣嗎我想不太會吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4121.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4139.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
不是 真的 這個有點 民主黨這個有點全國民眾都在看這個聽到這感覺哪裡怪怪的不是嗎我就說真的沒有讓法警我不知道這位是不是剛剛進來法警不管是你剛進來或老法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4139.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4159.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
都要知道一定要維護所有走進法院裡面甚至在這個我們院語內的秩序的安全跟人身的安全其實這個是我們一直規定一直講一直講一直講可是在這個世界我們就看到確實沒有落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4161.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4189.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我會認為秘書長我還是還是剛那句話不要讓第一線人員用猜的在指法明確可執行的現場處置標準這一次案子是個很明顯的一個案子剛剛不只松小林委員剛剛陳昭芝委員也都質詢過了今天是遇到一個女性的女性的當事人有過激的反應如果明天遇到的是一個雄壯威武比較而且比較有攻擊性的人那罰警是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4190.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4212.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
能夠保護到您剛剛講的目的保護到所有人呢這個明確而且可執行的現場處理標準這個最簡單的SOP我期待說我們司法院能夠盡快來去促成這件事情因為這是司法院的責任第二個案子我想要談就是社會上關注度非常高的新北哥口案 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4213.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4235.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
案子已經定驗了但是社會的不滿並沒有定驗這件事讓人不安的不是判決結果而是人民開始懷疑這套制度到底接不住風險我想這個案子全國都很注重被害人家屬講了一句很重的話司法接不住孩子要被害人來接 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4237.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4264.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那這句話其實要問一件事我們的制度到底是在保護人還是賭運氣呢我要請教司法院面對這麼重大的案件你認為現行制度特別是這個邵氏法還符合現實嗎其實大家心裡都知道制度還停在30年前但是犯罪形態已經是2026的版本已經跟1996年1986年不一樣了現在的問題不是現在的問題不是沒有方向而是沒有速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4265.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4285.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
社會再問修法什麼時候來怎麼改誰負責讓我這邊提出三個方向也請司法院正面回應立場第一個重大暴力犯罪是否限制假釋對於故意殺人重傷致死這種案件是如果判刑十年以上是否明定不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4286.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4306.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
現在的制度是時間到了就可以申請但是我的感受是傷害還沒結束人權可能就先出來了這個落差要怎麼解釋呢好 跟委員報告委員講一句話講得我個人也非常贊成就是說我們受試法是不是可以因應現代的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4308.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4337.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
其實對於這一件新北哥口案因為他是當就是因為少子法的關係而造成很多中間的缺陷的出現其實我們對於假釋已經著手嚴厲已經應該草案已經出來了就說應該要分階層還有就說相關的少年問題還有被害人的參與我們都已經嚴厲草案出來我們會在最快最快的本會期送出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4337.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4359.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
既然司法院已經正面回應這件事情那本席也就特地提我第二個主張直接提高假釋的門檻啦對於這種重傷事實這種重大這種故意殺人這種案件目前是服刑三分之一就可以申請假釋那是不是可以直接提高到二分之一那不要讓刑期看起來很重但是執行的時候卻被直接打折啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4359.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4380.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
是是是 我們有提供三分之一 二分之一 三分之二都有就依照他再次犯罪的罪職來做不同的處置第三點我希望我的意見司法院能夠真正能夠納入因為很多 現在民眾對於法律對於司法是有極度的不信任因為有太多太多原因不管是我們看到的其他案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4381.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4397.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
還是目前這一個案子其實被害人的意見納入審查在於殺人跟重傷致死的時候被害人的意見納入審查現在很多家屬的感受是什麼判決已經很難接受後面假釋的過程那個聲音都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4401.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4416.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
秘書長你想想看如果說您當然是以一個專業公務員專業體制內的人去講一句話可是如果一般家屬苦民所苦一般家屬我自己有兩個小朋友那如果我的小朋友出事我一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4418.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4441.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那個怒氣跟悲傷我是不知道怎麼去發洩的但是如果說這個人出來假釋的過程之內我連個聲音都沒有那我想請問我們現在先談法我們不談雖然這是個案但是我們直接從制度希望能夠把個案來去做一定程度的改善我們那個假釋是不是可以假釋是要納入被害人的陳述我們的草案裡面也規定了禁打 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4442.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4450.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
還有另外一個 審查結果必須說出具體的理由你不能說審查結果它可以了就這樣拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4467.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4483.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
對 沒錯 我想任何理由都是要具體的我想這個是我們草案裡面一定是我們很擔心的一句話叫做黑箱讓程序透明不要讓民眾直接認為司法就是在黑箱這點我覺得司法院必須要再做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4484.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4503.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
最後面我在幫民間團體這個還想陪你長大聯盟講一句話他們提的不是情緒是很務實的問題高風險家庭是誰在接社工跟保護官人力夠不夠心理輔導矯正體系有沒有接軌校園安全是誰在負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4505.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4522.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這些問題的共通點只有一個不是單一機關而是要跨部會來解決所以我想請教司法院現在是否有這跨部會的整合機制還是各做各最後責任也是各自切割沒有 跟委員報告就是在家事部分我們講保護令各方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4523.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4540.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
或者是在少年部分其實跟什麼衛福部啦還有教育部啊我們是各機關一定要跨部會的因為這個少年的有教育的部分有醫療的部分甚至就是我們司法部分我們全力的是所有一定是跨 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4541.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4557.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
跨機關的結合那我也可以跟委員報告其實其他機關就是警政署他們也是全力因為這件事情啟發我們很多的必須要進步的地方現在是全力跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4558.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4584.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
本席至少對於秘書長今天講說這個會期會提出版本這件事情本席給予肯定但是我期待的是說版本出來之後我們能夠好好開始討論不要讓這件事情已經發生的事情變成這個案變成未來的通案制度有錯就要改有不好的地方就要改要與時俱進這是我希望司法院能夠在這個案子上繼續做到的地方以上好 謝謝林沛翔委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4591.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4612.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
接下來我們有請林倩琦委員發言現在請我們司法院秘書長還有法務部的代表有請秘書長還有張司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4617.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4643.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
秘書長您好還有我們法務部的代表您好我想今天你們應該會碰到很多人都針對近期那個台中地院發生的事情然後提出很多的問題然後跟檢討那我想這件事情跟我們的司法專員還有人民的基本權利的一個保障的問題我想碰到一個很大的衝擊那本席今天要針對法警職權的法治化問題來跟您做請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4644.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4670.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那麼這樣看起來這個事件我想剛才很多人做了一些說明那也就是說當整個法庭失控 資訊失控的時候呢那第一線的反應竟然是報警處理我想大家從這整個畫面或者是看到的資訊都還蠻難以想像的那我想社會大眾對於這個警政的這個概念或者是對於警察的想法或者是所謂的法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4671.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4695.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我想在這個過程當中大家都蠻難理解的所以這樣講起來就是對司法的這個威信本身是一種傷害那今天呢其實剛才有幾位委員也有提出一些建議也就是說那這整個我們對於地檢署內部維護秩序跟安全的基本上就是法警人員但是關鍵時刻沒有辦法來發揮效用那很重要的核心就是法警職權的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4698.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4712.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那剛才也有警衛委員談到法警的這個法制的一個依據那麼警察人員在執行這個執法的時候有警察職權行使法與警察勤務條例來作為依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4713.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4740.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那涉及人民自由與權利的措施都有明文的一個規定還有法律的一個程序的保障但是法警它基本上在執行拘提、解送那麼甚至限制人身自由等高度介入基本權利的行為的時候呢主要的依據竟然是法警執行職務、陰刑注意事項等行政規則那其實也像剛才這個秘書長您這邊所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4742.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4770.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們從這件事情看到的真的是規定沒有用規定多如牛毛可是真的要用的時候卻使不上力所以呢如果法院地檢署的秩序需要積極來介入那法警會面臨可能會面臨被質疑或者是逮捕不合法甚至會遭到民事的一個責任的追究那這樣法源不明也不敢執行那麼法院地檢署的功能是不是有一點虛設 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4772.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4788.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這樣的制度沒有辦法保障法警的情務安全然後也讓法官跟檢察官跟到場的民眾其實有在一個潛在風險當中本席也注意到法警的穿著跟警察的穿著還蠻高度一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4788.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4806.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
但是職權跟法源卻完全不同我想這樣子的一個外觀跟實際的落差會造成社會上的一個誤解那對於整個執法體系的執行也沒有很實質的一個幫助所以接下來我想要請這個司法院法務部來做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4807.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4832.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那對於制定法警職權行使法來明確規範法警的職權範圍程序要件跟救濟的一個機制那麼司法院跟法務部的立場是如何那本席也有注意到在2017年其實這樣一個議題有被提出來過那本黨有一些委員其實有提到有關於法警職權行使法的相關法案但是當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4835.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4859.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
司法院跟法務部可能就覺得應該在法院組織法裡面去做處理就好了但是幾年過去了我們從這個事件看到當時你們的見解似乎在實務上是有一些落差的所以本席再次提出來這樣一個法制的訂定法源的一個比較強力性所以在相關立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4861.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4888.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
在可能完成之前那麼司法院跟地檢署有沒有短期的精進措施來強化法警來執行的法律保障跟現場的應變能力應變能力我相信你們應該會從這次的這個個案來做一些檢討但是我想幾年來還會發生這樣一個狀況可能我們真的要就這個法源跟法治層面去做一個制度性的處理那不曉得您對這個部分各位對這個部分的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4889.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4914.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
跟委員報告我們那個法組法其實司法院是認為關於法警的行使職權就是說對強制力有這個妨礙到民眾人身的部分人身自由的這個我們認為是規定在法組法因為我們法組法裡面已經有規定關於法警職務其實現在只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4917.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4921.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
把這個法警的職務罵入關於這個沒有另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4923.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4949.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
不是基本上這還是一個行政規則就是一個規定嘛這樣法院組織法是法律我們就是要增加它的法源就規定在地方法院我們可以規定法警為了維護這個可以行使各種比如說可是你這樣定定的可是這一次是不是後來你們還要叫外面的警察來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4950.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4978.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
因為最重要是就是說我們先講罰處罰部分罰處罰部分因為沒有訂定所以這個法警對於實施強制禁止可是我必須說其實對於現行犯的逮捕是不需要罰處罰的如果在法庭法院內部剛剛委員提到的這種暴力行為的發生根本不要用罰處罰就有了解這次發生這樣子的個案的原因是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4980.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4994.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
當然有了解啊他就是這個整個案情我們都非常清楚真的必須說我們這個法警太客氣了其實並不是所有法警都要這個樣子啦其實很多法警絕對會 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4995.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5014.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
或許他可能知道的也很多然後考量的也很多就如同剛才我們所講的這個部分那這一些或許是他知道這一些規定跟實務上的落差那不能說量多的就一定是對量少的就可能有問題不能說這樣子所以這個個案不會讓我們看到整體性的一個制度是有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5015.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5037.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你覺得這個依據是不是不夠強讓大家能夠直接這樣去執行他被賦予的權利或許在執行權利之後可能還有某一些空間會讓他陷入麻煩那搞不好這個法警可能有他各方面都了解了一些認知也說不定跟委員報告其實這一件真的是現行法不用法組法也可以做其實法警最難操作的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5037.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5055.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我要檢查 我要禁止 這個是沒有法律規定譬如說進法院的檢查 我強制檢查 強制收身那種防範危險發生的 這個是法警最難做的其實剛剛講的陷阱算是絕對沒問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5059.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5080.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
具有權力的人很多時候我們可以這樣講但是權力可能有落差的人他在執行上可能會有很多的考量我覺得這個部分是不是我們可以在這個制度缺口是不是不要再透過這樣一個行政規則來做點綴那如果回到法律未接是不是可以某種程度的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5081.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5097.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
因應這樣子的一個問題我想今天很多人也指出來就是說一個法律未接的這樣一個法是不是應該在這次事件裡面可以被考量跟討論對 沒有錯所以說我們才會說在因為法院組織法它是一個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5098.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5125.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那法院組織法也有法警我們要把法警的職權行使例如賦予法警一個很明確的這個法賦予法警一個很明確的法法警職權行使法這個我們待會去考慮我們會斟酌看到底法警是因為畢竟它在法組法裡面這一次所產生的狀況是如此那所以是不是可以再考量法警職權行使法在實際執行上的一個可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5126.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5144.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
可以 我們可以考量 謝謝接下來本席要請教的其實還是對司法信賴度的一個問題也就是說這次懲戒法庭的院長的這個案件李院長的這個案件已經有判決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5145.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5161.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那這個判決其實也引發社會的高度關注啦因為最重要的不是只有行為本身的惡劣那最重要的是行為人也身居高位但是呢卻成為違法失德的一個主體我想很多人都沒有辦法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5162.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5191.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那這樣從監察院的調查看來那相關的這個霸凌的行為長期是存在的但是內部機制也沒有辦法及早發現跟介入甚至可能在有介入的一個情況下其實還是有一些權宜的這個做法也就是說也等到這個院長這邊退休了之後那整件事情才做了一個處理所以這個案子所暴露的制度缺口司法院是不是有啟動一個全面的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5192.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5215.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那目前在性騷跟霸凌的一個防治上你們有沒有什麼具體的精進措施那第二個部分是那針對高階官員的一個行為監督有沒有一個獨立或有效的申訴跟調查的機制那我們怎麼樣來避免權力的不對等那導致被害人投訴無門或者是投訴的時候可能沒有辦法及時有一些回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5216.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5232.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那這個案子不僅是個案的一個處理啦我覺得借這個機會也可以做一個強化內部的治理跟人權保障機制的一個檢討讓司法的體系也能夠讓大家多一點信任那您的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5234.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5248.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
對於發生這種事情真的是對社會大眾我們也很抱歉可是關於霸凌的處理其實是完全尤其是現在因為公務人員職場安全及衛生防護法他這一次再修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5249.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5264.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他已經有外部委員的參與那其實內部程序也是更積極了就是因為這次修正以後所以各個我們各法院都有相關的調查處理辦法我們第一個一定要讓同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5265.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5287.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
勇於提出這個霸凌申訴那我們當然希望不要發生可是發生的話另外我們也要求各科室主管是要主動觀察當然主動觀察這個東西就大家去衡量那對於霸凌事件的發生我們整個除了通報以外後續的處理是完全依照程序來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5288.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5316.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那當然這個事件的發生可能前面遭到各界質疑我們是處理的太慢其實在這個事件以後我們是強力規定整個程序是一步緊接著一步一定要不管這個霸凌有沒有成立一定要讓我們申訴的人他知道說我們這件事情怎麼處理另外霸凌一旦提出在有沒有成立之前我們也會做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5317.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5341.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
隔開或者是職位的移動最少要讓大齡人他心情是平靜的好的 那咪師傅如果您覺得這個部分在規定上或SOP上面你們已經有做一些處理那我同樣的一個建議也就是像您剛才講的罰警那是不是在SOP的一個訓練上我想也是應該平常就要做一個訓練跟處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5343.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5363.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
最後本席這邊要請教警政署關於警計的一個問題目前我們知道有爆發新聞裡面爆發出遠景勾結詐騙集團利用公務系統來查詢車手的通緝資料甚至到洩密跟偽造文書雖然已經深壓獲准 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5367.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5389.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這也看到我們警政系統被濫用那甚至呢現在大家知道的詐騙猖獗結果我們竟然還成為一個助力所以雖然你們在警政系統這邊已經做了一些警示的機制但本席認為單純的一個查詢警示其實還是有某種程度的被動所以要請教你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5390.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5414.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那針對這個個案警政署現在有沒有全面來檢視歷史的調閱記錄有沒有其他的異常行為那第二部分是那同步是不是有同步追查其他員警涉入的一個可能性那目前對員警查詢資料的監督機制有沒有建立一個定期回溯集合或是異常行為的一個分析還是大部分都是事後發現那 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5416.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5438.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
接下來是在查詢警示之外呢那警政署會不會更積極主導這個監督的一個措施那除了針對高風險的一個查詢的立即的預警那跨單位的比對不知道你們有沒有做比如說督察單位的主動抽查像這樣子的情形是不是可以請你這邊簡單做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5440.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5455.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
主席 委員好我想警政署對於這些違法犯紀的同仁我非常痛心所以好幾次的經驗以後我們警政署由督察室主導的我們大概會把所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5456.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5474.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
查詢的異常流量的同仁都把它列印出來讓主管去主動集合這是主動式的而不是被動的那被動式的很多被動式的當然就是很多都已經發現這些異常了違法亂紀了那所以你們有沒有做一些跨單位的這個比較分析呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5475.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5501.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
有有有 異常的部分我們都控管甚至我們有些單位會自己研發一些電腦把一些參數設定出來出來以後 跑出來以後交給主管可是我們因為有7萬人那怪異肉案所以很多時候事實上這也是我們目前在整個風紀的部分查緝的一個重點那不管是我們每一週還有晚報等等這些都一再的去宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5502.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5524.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那這個部分當然是我們的大忌我們現在打詐是我們的重點工作那發生一樣一個案件跟詐欺集團勾結事實上我們就自己覺得那個影響就很大 是是是所以我們會深切檢討這部分那我們會積極來查緝好 最重要就是我們應該主動讓民眾安心是 是 有這部分我們在做OK 好 謝謝那這也提出了這個國家資訊權利被濫用的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5527.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5539.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那很重要一點就是說我們掌握越多的權力我們有越多的責任那這個責任就是如何讓權力相對不對等的民眾感到安全我想這也是很重要的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5543.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5573.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 謝謝這邊的話你可能要提醒剛剛秘書長這裡因為林慶琪委員有特別提到司法院的工作場所性騷擾防治措施申訴及處理要點那這部分的話因為本席其實今天也有做一些study然後有發現你們似乎在外部的外聘委員的部分會不會有不足的地方因為好像沒有很清楚的公告揭示所以相關的資訊的話希望之後可以在司法院的網站上面都可以揭露好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5573.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5579.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 謝謝接下來我們請審發會委員巡大主席 我們請祕書長好 請祕書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5604.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5621.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
民進黨早安我想我們今天本委會所安排的這個主題這個當然剛剛前面委員都提到了之所以會安排這樣子的專題報告最主要就是因為兩個禮拜前發生在台中地院的案件引起社會的矚目 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5622.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5651.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
但是這個案件基本上我們今天的主題設定也把這個案件列出其實是兩個不同的面向第一個面向是有關法院安全維護的問題這是第一個面向另外一個獨立的面向就是有關於法警職權行使的問題剛才大概很多委員都是針對這些問題有的混雜在一起談把法院安全維護跟法警職權行使兩個混在一起談 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5652.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5674.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那我覺得我們還是把它分開來談比較清楚我們把這個案子分開來所以我先就這個法院安全維護的部分來就教於秘書長我看我們今天司法院的專題報告其實很簡單只有幾頁但是你們大概就分成三大點第一點就是針對這個製造事件你們已經採取的相關措施這是你們第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5675.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5704.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
第二點是針對這個個案你們的處置跟檢討這是第二點第三點就是你們後續要精進的作為因為這個案件你們後續要做什麼事情大概就是三個主題而已那我就針對這三個主題大概跟第一個部分我先針對這三個主題來討論有關於法院安全秩序的維護其實它的法源依據大家現在討論其實這個案件它是發生在法庭外 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5705.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5720.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
對不對 它是發生在法庭外嘛 對不對所以我們有關發生在法庭內的這個在法庭內的這個安全秩序跟法庭外的安全秩序它其實有不同的法源依據法庭內它其實很清楚就是法院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5721.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5743.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個第88條跟89條審判長在法院這個有關於開閉審理訴訟他都有指揮之權第89條就是說這個法庭開庭的時候審判長有維持秩序之權這個所有法源大概就在這一條所以整個法庭內基本上他的執行這個法庭內法庭安全的秩序執行基本上就是由審判長進行訴訟指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5746.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5770.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
在法庭內就是審判長負全責那法警就是輔助的執行而已但在法庭外呢簡單講就是法院裡面但是在法庭外如果在法院外面當然就屬於一般的警察啦但在法院裡面但是在法庭之外這個安全維護呢這個目前是沒有法律的依據的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5771.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5795.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
目前我看到的我們的法院依據就是法條依據大概就是各個法院大家自己制定的安全維護實施要點對不對是不是這樣就有關法院內但是法庭外就這次發生事情的這樣子的這個狀況它沒有法律依據它就是各個法院大家自己制定的所謂安全維護實施要點這就是他們的法條依據而已這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5799.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5814.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個整個法條依據最好它的執行就是由法警負責依這個要點來執行所以它的依據就只有這樣子這個說起來是我個人認為說這個是在法源上面有點不足這個部分這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5817.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5839.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我希望司法院這個部分就這個法院內法庭外的安全維護的法源依據的部分能夠是不是在法院組織法或是相關的修法裡面把它做一個制定讓它具有一個真正法律的依據而不是依照實施要點這是第一點第二點我看你們剛剛講到這個書面報告你們針對這個我們剛剛講的第一點就是針對這個案子你們已經採取了相關措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5846.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5872.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你們在講說,其實在鑑於114年,就是去年7月間發生的法庭內外的暴力滋擾事件你們在去年7月就發函要求各法院確實落實法院安全維護改善方案對不對你們去年發文是要求落實那這個改善方案,法院安全維護改善方案是在什麼時候制定的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5878.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5899.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
在105年9月30號制定這個法院安全維護的方案這個方案我等一下後續跟你討論這個方案其實所謂的這個法院安全維護改善方案其實跟這次的個案幾乎沒有關係因為他的這個改善方案是什麼?他其實規範的就是第一個法庭外面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5900.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5926.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
入口處他就規範入口處的安全檢查而已喔還沒有你剛剛講的收身啊調查這是對你們所以所以這個這個所謂所謂安全改善方案就是有關於法院的入口處的安檢這是第一個另外一個就是有關於人犯在法庭內的相關規範以及他的在法院裡面人犯的動線大概就這個規定而已在這一次的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5928.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5944.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
他並不是人犯 他還是訴訟主體他並不是在押人犯所以並不在你們的這個安全維護改善方案裡面所以即使你要求他落實這個安全維護改善方案也跟這次的案子無關 對不對是不是這樣 民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5945.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5959.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
其實要跟委員報告這個其實那個是強化法院安全維護方案其實剛剛委員提到的對於這個法警在法庭外 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5960.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5989.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
怎麼一個處理其實我們都有規定沒有沒有剛剛那個改善方案沒有啊改善方案是沒有可是這個是就像委員剛剛提到的各法院他們對於法庭以外法院內的秩序安全的維護都有自己的辦法我知道我現在可以討論你們接下來你們在第三點你們提到後續的經營作為裡面你們第一個說 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5990.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6012.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
你們就是說的第四點你們說要研議制定標準化的指引要優化訴訟指揮的效能這裡面你們提到第一個要制定法院安全維護指引也就是相關的SOP目前沒有這目前沒有所以你們要制定第二個你們要強化法庭內脫序行為訴訟指揮指引你為什麼寫強化就是現在已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6013.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6028.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
就法庭內的這個指引其實你們已經有了但是在法庭外就是這次發生事情的法庭外的部分你們目前沒有指引對我們對於這就是真的是各法院在我們並沒有制定指引這個我們要改進所以這個部分你們要制定是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6029.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6051.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那這部分我是希望說我們把這個法源依據大家都搞清楚在哪個部份我們需要加強哪個部份的指引法庭內法庭外我們把它分清楚才有辦法才不會說整間的喇喇做回住像今天有的在談法庭內的秩序然後再談這個然後把他拉來這個個案其實都不是這次的個案很簡單就是法庭內 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6052.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6064.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
在法院內但是在法庭外這個是目前法制上面的漏洞這部分我希望說能夠做補強那我們今天的第二個主題是有關法警的職權行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6066.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6089.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
剛剛大概也有委員整個討論就是有委員大家就著重在這個法警職權刑事法的部分但是其實我們目前我們這些法警法警的任用資格其實他的任用資格的法源就跟一般警察不一樣他的任用資格是按照司法人士條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6090.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6112.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
的這個第四條第一項第九款他所制定那他的任用資格也跟一般警察一般警察是用警察人員任用條例但是我們這個法警他是用司法人員人事任用條例的這個第26條有關這個這個其任用資格有法律定資那有法律定資之後呢我們這個這個這個就就 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6115.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6121.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
定在哪個法律裡面呢定在法院組織法裡面對不對就定在法院組織法裡面那所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6123.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6146.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
目前大家所認為說現在法警執行上面他們的法源依據不足這個法警執行職務的法源依據不足確實是法源依據不足那要如何改善這個法源依據不足過去其實司法院並不是沒有做司法院在108年就提出了法院組織法的這個修法草案而且送到立法院來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6147.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6166.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
但在立法院審查的時候就分成不同的意見有的意見是支持盡快的由法院組織法修法來明定這個法警的這個職權行使但是有的意見就認為說不應該在法院組織法裡面訂定他應該要另訂這個法警職權行使法對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6168.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6186.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好那我個人認為這樣子啦你要定在哪裡都可以但是你就是要把現在目前法警執行這個執行職權他的這個法律上面的目前的缺的缺漏的部分在法治上面趕快把它補足對不對所以你們要定你們認為應該定在法院組織法也很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6187.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6206.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那時候因為屆期不連續沒有送是不是再送進立法院來 是好不好 是什麼時候送進來 我們在周會期周會期 周會期把法 你們看是我們就回去你現在要訂定 你要重新訂定一個罰警職權行使法可能又要經過一個一個你們內部的程序又要這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6210.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6233.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
會賢各個單位但是我們其實108年的法院組織法修正草案它已經是都經過這些程序了你只要送進來就可以了啊對不對所以這個部分先送進來大家我們委員會來討論我們立法院大家來討論有意見的話大家再來決定是不是要通過你們的法院組織法你看你們法院組織法的修正草案完不完備嘛對不對那這個部分齁其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6238.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6262.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
現在的這個警察跟這個法警他職權行使實在是警察你有警察職權行使法法警現在目前執行的依據都是一個行政規則而已啊所以當然是這個法律位階不足啦那最後一點點再一點點時間就是說談到法警了我們就來談法警人力的問題啊我們法警人力現在目前法警人力的配置這個秘書長你看這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6264.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6291.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我按照我們的統計每年的案件量我們目前法警的配置最多的是台北地方我拿這個資料是檢察署不好意思可能請法務部法務部其實法院你一樣我們法院也是一樣我這個統計資料目前這個法警的配置台北地方台北地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6292.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6295.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
台北地院法警的人數是最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6314.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6332.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
台北地方法院是一百零四人最少的金門分院一個法警而已我們剛剛前面的那些安全指引甚至人犯的押解要求兩個有相關案件要求兩個法警押解但是在金門只有一個法警要哪裡生第二個法警來押解公務員報告應該是七個 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6335.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6363.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
現在已經有7個法警了但是你看看台北地方法院104個法警他一年的案件有多少案有61萬個案件61萬個案件有104個法警來負擔那顯然再加上法警其實除了維持法警的秩序他還有巡邏還有值班還有等等還有很多的其他的職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6363.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6388.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我個人認為法警這個量人力是絕對不足啦這部分我希望說你們能夠有一個改善的規劃現在我們有點依賴說要依賴保全人員那保全人員完全沒有法律依據保全人員的法律指責完全沒有任何法院在法院裡面的保全人員說要輔助法警他連輔助法警的法律依據都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6389.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6393.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這部分我希望說我們司法院把這部分都把這些漏洞都把它補起來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6397.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6418.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
謝謝沈委員的詢答那麼剛剛沈委員提醒就是說其實司法院在108年當時有提出法院組織法的修正草案我也希望說是請你們盡速回去討論好看看是不是再重提法院組織法的修正草案因為我覺得這個很重要好不好好那接下來再請張雅琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6428.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6433.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
謝謝主席有請司法院秘書長好有請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6437.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6466.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
謝謝秘書長那我想今天大家其實都一直不停的在討論有關於台中定院律師在法院內遭施暴的案件那其實呢這位這位林姓被告呢他其實已經是累犯了在2024年2025年就已經多次對不同的律師有傷害恐嚇的行為甚至在2025年11月高人法院台中分院開庭的時候也曾經違反法官維持法庭秩序的命令也就是說他並不是一個毫無徵兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6467.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6491.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
然後無法預見的個案它是一個具有高風險的對象2月10號才在法院炒過價3月17號開庭的時候竟然完全沒有完善的預防措施我想我們現在其實是有事前風險評估的機制對不對那到底這個風險評估是為什麼會失靈呢可以針對於我們事前已經發生那麼多次的訊息警告視而不見是不是可以請秘書長簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6492.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6507.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我真的很抱歉,我這一件其實真的事前就知道訊息,那就是要怎麼說呢,他就是沒落實,明明知道了,那應該要怎麼處理,都應該要做了,那我只能說他就是沒做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6509.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6529.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
但是我想這一件 因為已經不是第一次被打 也不是只有這個地方失靈而是整套系統在各個地方的落實都失靈可是我可以跟委員報告啦 真的這一件在台中地院發生因為我當過院長 其實在我的法院是不會發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6530.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6553.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我一定是落實我們出乎意料之外其實王院長也被我重重的責備了一下怎麼會失靈這個是各法院的SOP啊真的是SOP啊不應該失靈竟然失靈真的跟全國抱歉真的是我只能就只能這樣說而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6555.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6561.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我想這個應該是要充分的檢討我們到底是這個訓練不落實沒有落實訓練還是我們的事前風險評估的機制不夠完善我想這個是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6576.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6597.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個司法院來好好的檢討不然說我覺得如果我們事前風險評估我就必須釐清真相問題在哪裡我們才能夠去確保我們的法院內的一個安全那再來就是說司法院其實事後已經對外表示未來會依案件性質還有當事人的身心狀況及相關情資強化事前風險評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6598.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6615.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
並研議更明確的法院安全指引也會考慮動線增派罰金等措施那我想問一下現在的指引進度到哪裡應該我們私情聽對我們這個我想我們下個禮拜下個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6617.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6640.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
應該就會把指引公告給讓各法院能夠明確的他應該要各個點我想斷點一定要把它做好這個是我們希望下個禮拜能夠把它發佈出去發佈出去但是我想剛剛也有講到我們事前風險評估這個機制以前都有但是沒有落實所以接下來這一套你要如何落實呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6641.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6649.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
老實說啦因為公佈我想可能沒有什麼用啦所以落實的方法是什麼其實要落實其實不難 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6651.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6674.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
第一個一定要告知其實這個SOP都有當事人以前也都有嘛對不對所以我現在要問的是說以前也都有現在你的精進措施是什麼嗎我們才能夠確保說這不是只是一份文件嘛而是真的能夠保障我們法院內的人員的安全嘛對不對對所以我最簡單的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6675.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6687.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
你既然前面已經有評估這個訊息一定是送到院長室跟政風室這兩個單位一定就是立刻啟動那有時候就是在這邊有個斷點斷掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6692.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6703.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
斷點是什麼意思其實這一件就只到行政廳長行政廳長我必須說有時候有些人對於風險的意識度 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6705.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6725.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
沒有那麼高他交給法警去執行的時候他沒有再度的去check其實這個各法院應該要做到的他其實就是他那個緊密度一定要維持住所以我們就在指引一定要每個等於是一節一個環節一個環節一個環節要告訴他們都要落實到 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6729.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6749.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我想這個就是回應到我剛剛講的啦我想一個完善的檢討然後還有再簡單一個報告給我們讓我們知道說接下來你如何針對這一些落掉的地方你們如何在這一次的風險評估指引出來之後如何的落實精進那再來還有就是說我也想要請教法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6750.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6766.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就是說這類的個案的精神評估狀況以及預防性的處置問題像它過去其實已經一再的出現了傷害恐嚇甚至在司法場域有反覆脫序暴力的傾向那其實檢察官在偵查的過程之中就應該不只一次處理過了那而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6767.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6795.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以我想是不是應該要整體來評估這個人到底有沒有持續的危險性那如果已經有相當的跡象的顯示的時候呢其實制度上不是完全沒有工具可以使用嘛我們其實是可以申請暫時申請暫行安置或是採取更積極的強制處分理論上都應該要納入評估啦所以終結後來也認定這個被告有這個反覆犯罪之餘並向法院申請羈押而且獲准囉既然最後都能夠認定到這個程序那為什麼案發前呢我們沒有對這類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6796.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6797.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
如果相關的那個被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6818.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6840.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
有這樣子的一個記錄那可能有一些風險存在的話那事實上檢察官不管在公訴立庭的時候也都會有跟法院一些相關的聯繫來做提醒那在偵查的部分也都會有一些依照這個他的風險來做這個相關後續的處置作為所以意思聽起來是法務部其實有把應盡該做的事情都做了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6840.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6856.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
嗯 相關的風險我們都會在所有的案件去做相關的考量好 了解好 謝謝好 那我想還是這個就是司法院的那個精進報告啦聽起來是這樣子謝謝 法務部可以請回了那我繼續回到司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6857.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6882.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那我接下來就是要問這個法警的問題那剛剛其實審法會委員也有問一樣的問題就是說我們在法院組織法其實是應該要去明定他的一些職長因為他畢竟要有明確的授權他才能夠去做事情那剛剛也有聽到說這個會期會送進來那我想還有另外一個問題就是說因為其實我們在法警他有送份授權但是他能不能去判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6883.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6897.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個時候他可以做那這個部分應該也是要充分的之前訓練他才能夠做到這個判斷他才敢下這樣子的決定去做這件事情可是我們看了一下剛剛講的是人力的問題剛剛審發會委員講的是人力的問題現在我要講的是之前訓練的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6902.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6925.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們現在它的原則上訓練只有1到3週連同食物訓練合計4個月而平時的訓練目前則是至少40小時可是因為他們現在面對的風險狀況其實不是只是秩序維持包含剛剛講的那個突發暴力應變然後疑似精神狀況不穩定的這個情緒失控的個案他們都要處理所以我認為我們的之前訓練的內容跟時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6928.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6955.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
是不是也應該要評估 一致的去調整 或者是延長呢不曉得 林署長的看法是什麼是的 從這件事件其實我們早期都過於重 非常重視大部分時間其實會花在體力上的訓練比較多還有一些就是法規上的了解對於這個緊急應變這種概念的訓練真的 我們是不足 我們必須要承認所以這個事件以後也讓我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6959.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6983.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
去訓練就說除了這個訓練以外其實我也強定非常的強力要求各法院其實每天都有值錢要跟法警談話其實每天在值錢談話的就說那應該叫名字叫做早上的自己那個勤務宣導勤務宣導每天早上都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6984.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7004.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
其實那個時候 應該就要有做得出來因為我們看了一下過去好像似乎也沒有真的罰警去執行過去你們現在可以授權他們使用的一些工具上面有警棍我不是說警棍而是在那些判斷那些情況下他可以執法我覺得這件事情是罰警 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7004.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7031.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
她並不清楚的所以我認為其實不是職勤務訓練這件事情而是說到底哪些狀況下要非常的明確讓她知道這種情況她是可以做的她可以執行的我覺得這才真正是可以維護我們法庭內的秩序那當然法庭外剛剛其實審法會委員也有提到我認為這也是我們現在缺乏的一塊因為現在出手的現場已經延伸到這個走廊這個通道的地方這個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7033.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7052.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
請一併放在我剛剛講的這個經濟報告裡面一起提供給我那想要知道大概什麼時候可以提供給我我們在指引發布的時候同時就會寫出但是經濟措施包含對於罰金這些所有的所以就是一個禮拜嗎還是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7057.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7075.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那最後一題我想要再延伸一下就是這幾天網路上針對柯文哲案的判決結果出現了一些討論那有些人因為不滿判決結果不管是先回到法律程序啦不是談上訴談救濟而是直接把矛頭指向法官檢察官本人甚至喊出要人民直選法官直選檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7075.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7096.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
要用選票把這些人淘汰掉那我今天其實我們要討論這個判決的結果我要講的是說在法治國家不服判決的正當程序就是上訴、抗告是循審及就據而不是由群眾的壓力去逼迫司法讓步更不是威脅檢察官、司法官去對他們發起政治動員或是網路霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7096.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7124.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以我現在要考慮的其實是法官檢察官的人身安全因為現在已經社群上出現了對這個受命的法官許芳瑜的點名已經說記得給這位法官愛的關照這樣子的話其實就已經有非常明顯的一個威嚇的意味所以我認為現在講法院的秩序已經不是只有這個實體空間包含虛擬的空間都應該要一起的來考量因為這樣子的法官被網路上面點名罷名 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7125.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7148.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
霸凌不是只有他自己 包括他的家人可能都有風險那我們看了一下美國有一些針對於高風險的案件上面他們對於法官其實是有一些保護措施那我不曉得說我們現在是不是也可以針對像一些比較高風險的案件把它盤點出來那我們也有一些相對應的保護措施來保護這些法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7148.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7166.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
是的其實我們院內對於法官就個案除了有一個矚目案件的這個列表以外也會主動法官其實沒有說提出來也會主動詢問他需要有哪些保護措施我們甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7167.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7188.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
會派專員一段時間的可能上下班尤其是我們在公共空間送他上車或者是哪個階段他認為需要被保護我們也會跟警政單位聯繫這個我們一定要盡到最大的保護所以謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7189.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7214.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
了解 但我想因為現在聽起來好像比較是針對於上下班的部分據我們了解也是上下班的部分但是美國好像有更擴充那我不曉得說我們是不是也可以參考一下這部分我尊重你們的專業判斷我們是不是可以針對其他國家對於這些注目案件上面提供給我們的法官這些司法人員更安全的保障那是不是也可以評估一下那大概可不可以再大概評估多久時間給我們一個評估的結果那我們應該也是兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7219.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7220.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7246.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7257.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們司法院高秘書長好 請高秘書長還有我們司法行政廳吳廳長法務部檢察司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7265.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7283.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那今天我看我們翁小玲召委今天排這樣的一個專題的一個報告其實代表我們立法院對於整個法庭實務所發生的事情其實都表達及時的一個關心整個制度怎麼樣來建制 這個其實是非常重要的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7284.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7310.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我想這次台中地院這樣的一個發生暴力事件雖然打得耳光的是律師公會的一個理事長只是這個是剛好對象讓社會引起注目其實不管是不是打到律師公會的理事長或者是律師或者一般民眾這個都必須要特別來做一個看看制度上需不需要如何來做一個精進的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7311.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7330.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那我看這一次大家看到這樣的一個事件爆發以後本席的看法就有一點不太一樣應該是從整個制度的一個根本來看我一直都認為說這個法警這個法警到底以現在來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7331.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7360.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這一次大家的評論是在說律師批評現場法警沒有用現行犯去逮捕後續的開刑就變成一個不公開的一個審理了那律師公會全聯會也呼籲司法院去正式建立對律師人身安全防護的一個機制是對律師的安全防護必須要這個機制要去建立對一般進入到這個法庭的人身的一個防衛機制都必須要去做一個建立光去譴責我看意義不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7361.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7380.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
基層的法警會講說我只是穿著警察的制服而已但是我的職權跟法院跟警察完全都不一樣我不曉得秘書長怎麼去看待這件事情以現在法警的定位跟職權來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7383.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7411.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我30年前也開始就在這個法院裡面這樣在行使律師的一個職務但是呢我相信法警它其實它真正的一個職務其實在支援整個審判的一個工作那支援這個審判工作呢也就是說它的角色其實跟它在服務整個審判秩序的一個維持那跟一般的警察那是完全不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7411.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7415.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那你警察是負責治安的維護啊犯罪偵查啊 蒐集證據啊那我看這三個你認為會跟法警會有所一樣嗎我請教秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7423.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7441.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝委員提到這個法警的工作當然跟一般警察是完全不一樣就像誠如委員所說的他重要是在法院的審判所以我的意思是說司法院跟法務部這邊的間諜其實是一樣的法警跟警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7441.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7461.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
他的職權是完全是不同的啦那你制度上來講的話你說他不是警察但實務上的話你看這次大家就要求你就必須要用警察的一個標準來看待這件事情了在要求這些法警這個我看起來也是不通你說一般法院跟檢察署會發生一些突發的狀況被告會脫逃或者在後審室裡面可能會產生一些衝突或者被告他也有可能自傷啊他也有可能去傷人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7470.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7490.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那甚至於就大家擔心的結球的問題那這一些你說全部要要求我們現在的法警去在現場做第一線的處理如果站在法警的立場來看的話那他到底有沒有足夠的法定權限可以處理這第一個要去思考的地方那第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7492.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7500.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我看你法務部跟司法院你們其實應該好好去回答社會的是說如果沒有明確的司法授權的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7502.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7505.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
你這個法警發生這種事情的話搞不好他還要打110等警察來幫忙處理這個空窗期責任到底誰來負的問題所以這個職權的部分法務部跟司法院這邊你們的看法到底是什麼有什麼樣的法源依據來要求我們這些法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7526.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7541.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
其實就關於維持法庭秩序這個部分像執庭執行警衛解送人犯還有那個司法警察事務這是刑事訴訟法其實在解送人犯這個整個過程就涵蓋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7542.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7571.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那個候審室的維護安全那解送人犯中秩序的維持他是有授權的唯一其實最大沒有授權就誠如委員所說的在那個法院法庭外的空間這一塊是都沒有所以我們必須要這個部分要讓在希望能夠在法院組織法明確規定讓法警有法院依據不要再遲疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7572.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7596.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那我相信你這樣 民主黨這樣有一個答案我看你可能到立法院來 叫初登板嘛那你第一次嘛 其實很誠懇啦那翁委員其實他弄這樣一個專報的話我相信他也會支持你啦 立法院也會去支持但是碰到一個問題喔你說立法院我們朝野 我跟翁委員我們兩個來支持你們大部分大家應該比較不會有反對的一個意見這個沒有黨派之分嘛但問題有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7599.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7624.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
就是說我全部給你的職權達到跟一般警察一樣啦或者維護整個法庭的一個秩序這個民眾也認為該去做一個確保可是你看現在缺員的問題啊你這個欠人你不要跟他說是我以前剛在當小律師的時候我看到以前那個台北地檢那個是光頭警長嘛對吧我想說他多大你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7626.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7653.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
結果 蛤 他是委任好像是五職等還是六職等而已六到六職等那也就是說呢法警長到七我的意思是說你法警的人力其實是不足啦是穿衣服衫好看而已啦真的是穿衣服衫好看而已啊你的待遇跟一般警察也不能比啊你的位階關節也不能比啊那你說你要留住人力那所以呢 你這個喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7654.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7665.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
工作量也會增加啦你檢查機關或者是法院你這個人力調度多你必須要去大幅的增加我看你們這幾年是好像請了保全了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7666.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7693.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
對,跟委員報告,真的委員指到我們的痛點剛剛委員是講法源,說講法源其實同樣的,人力,法警的人力絕對不足那為什麼人力不足?我們受到總原額法控制住是對,根本我們剩不到一百個餘額可以用了其實各法院如果這樣算起來的話你法警要增加,真的是我們是抓金劍走的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7694.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7722.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
總原額法的一個限制這當然是你們現在碰到一個最大的一個問題啦那其實喔我看整個從2016年整個刑事訴訟法的一個變革以後啊你說夜間不詢問制度上路以後啊你法院本來就比較長的時間你必須要去戒護叫這個羈押的一個被告那還有你看現在社會發生了這麼多集團性的一個犯罪以後人也人數也越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7724.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7740.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那監察院又去糾正你們不能用借物為理由對被告任意施用借據否則就是違反公民跟政治權利國際公約的一個人權保障監察院講這個有他的道理可是會增加你們在整個實務上的一個困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7741.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7764.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那你看大法官會議解釋785號他就講說你工作時間的上限加班的一個上限輪班間隔的部分這個輪班的一個公務員更換秩序至少要連續11個小時的休息的一個時間從刑事訴訟法的制度的變革到整個社會集團性案件的一個暴增然後再 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7765.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7785.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
監察院在踢你們一腳然後在整個大法官會議又跟你講說有這樣的一個限制以後讓你們更難去做人力的一個調配啦但是總原額法裡面它當然是框住的再來看看怎麼突破但是呢現狀之下呢其實你們還是可以有一些作為啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7786.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7805.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你像譬如說訓練啊一般的專業訓練的方式你要怎麼去做一個提升讓法警雖然他本個工作性質跟警察不同不能畫上等號可是總是啊讓他對於整個勤務的流程突發的狀況該怎麼處理你們這些訓練的部分譬如說特定的訓練啊平常的訓練啊你們會說有 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7812.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7830.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
有的你也沒有一個規定出來沒有一個制度出來像譬如說我訓練的目的到底要幹什麼時間要多長去做一個規劃的話把他們整個訓練把它給提升了我相信對你們還是有幫助的尤其是人不夠 薪水的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7833.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7861.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
像這一些 如果沒有去做一個妥善的一個因應的話人要因緣 你要救母 我不知道秘書長 阿喜 法務部你們的看法是怎麼樣是辛苦 沒錯當然訓練 我們是剛剛已經都講 一定是加強再加強那薪水部分能夠提高 當然希望大院 還有我們行政院能夠支持這個是最好的這個 你看一般來看的話 你如果訓練不足的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7862.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7868.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
你這個實在是這種狀況你要避免它發生也很困難可是本席的看法是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7869.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7897.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我跟汪委員對不管是各行政部門裡面人手的部分其實我們大部分都是在支持你們的因為你常常你讓你一個制度喔讓一個在這邊從事這個工作的人對他的職業我看不到前景啊我看不到前景那你就變成你要讓他如果去看到那個前景然後降低那個流動率喔這個是行政部門在缺人手你首先要去解決的啦你這個如果沒有去解決的話說其他的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7899.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7919.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
不好了 是那個官等那麼低啦薪水就是這樣子啦工作時間還是那麼還是那麼長啦啊 大家要做的事情放過要是一樣這麼多啦你說 這樣要怎麼去維護整個法庭的一個安全品質原木求魚你做一個總結看看我要聽聽你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7919.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7942.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
第一個當然訓練措施我們剛剛一直提一直提一直提我們絕對要做到那再來委員提到的怎麼讓法警願意投入這個工作值等薪水真的是我們是要求各機關來共同達成一個士氣的維護薪水一定是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7944.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7952.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
訓練部分是司法院該做的我們絕對務實讓各法院一定要照一個環節一個環節一個環節的仔細去落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7955.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7974.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這樣你硬拿得出來嗎?你不能在這邊答覆啊剛剛跟那個報告說我們那個給各法院的強化措施是我們下個禮拜就頒布給各法院那剛剛另外一個委員質疑的我們的各項的小節的精進方法我們一個月內那個是訓練那很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7977.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7994.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我相信翁委員跟我所關注的就是說你人受盡要貼心人要有膽你那個官等穿著衣服看起來像警察他只是他法定職權又不是警察你怎麼樣留住這些人讓他們看到他們整個職業的一個前景這個你要有保安不然你這樣一年而已回去沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7996.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8013.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們會跟著法處法修正它的法源希望能夠在這個職等上面也跟著突破你K出來我們兩個招委盡量來跟你們幫忙那像這一次啊本席也參與整個律師法的共同的一個提案強化這個司法跟相關職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8017.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8043.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這個職業場所的安全防護的一個義務你去明定禁止妨礙律師執行職務規範的刑事責任我們也期望說朝野之間大家共同來支持來保障律師職業安全不受非法的一個干擾但是本席剛所提出的秘書長你也很正面的一個回應我們也希望趕快你送到立法院大家好好來你們各個機關哪一個地方該去突破不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8043.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8058.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
不用幾年 因為這個馬上又爆發出來你這樣人流不掉啦一個工作看不到願景的齁這個你說要限制降低他的流動率很困難的啦要加油一下好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8060.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8082.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言我跟莊昭偉我們兩個都有共識會支持司法院提出的法警的人力員額的增加還有職等的提高希望司法院回去能夠盡速的提出相關的修正法案好 謝謝接下來我們請徐宇珍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8092.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8100.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝主席 我們請司法院高金正秘書長以及我們的檢察司張司長好 請秘書長跟張司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8108.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8137.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
MU長還有市長好我想今天我們排這個專報專題報告最主要就是針對在台中地議院所發生的這個律師被這個女子這個國長的這個事件那當然這個部分我在剛剛在你們的報告裡面你們有提到說其實你們有做了一些教育訓練包括你在7月起就有事前預警高風險通報還有警力盤點跟教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8138.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8151.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
但是同時間你們也自己檢討說事實上是因為自己法源不足執法遲疑還有因為警力不足的關係所以還有法官的訴訟只會過於保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8153.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8172.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
但是呢同樣的這個法務部對於高風險案件的分流退庭跟安全陪同還有這個機關的區內現行暴力的處置其實寫得很詳細就是刑事訴訟法第88條的現行犯的規定法警的依法逮捕那所以我想請教一下秘書長針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8174.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8193.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
刑事處分法第88條是問何人都可以進行逮捕所以說當時為什麼我們在這個司法院的在台中地院的這個法警卻沒有用這樣的方式而是用隔離的方式呢這個我剛剛有一支報告其實真的是我們這位法警真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8195.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8221.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
他自己對於這個其實我必須跟委員報告有時候法警他們很害怕說我一個強制的行為是不是造成更大的騷擾只要這個念頭在他腦子裡面他就沒有勇敢的去不能說勇敢就沒有很盡職的去達成現行犯是任何人可以進行逮捕的這個法治觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8221.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8234.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
不過這個已經不是言語了這直接有行動了這個應該對 應該是現行犯的這個標準應該就已經是已經落實那為什麼對 就罰警做這樣的表示說可能平常的教育訓練對 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8236.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8251.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
是不夠的我必須承認可能我們對於他應該什麼時候不能講什麼時候你應該把這種現行犯應該要進行逮捕的這種要把它變成一個DNA因為你這樣才有辦法維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8251.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8276.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那請問一下你剛剛有提到說是因為法警遲疑他認為可能造成更大的騷擾那請問一下那當法警做這樣遲疑的時候他有沒有可以譬如說請示上級機關或是請示法官或是相關的人員可以請示有有有其實可以的這一件事件我必須講真的是整個都法警都遲疑其實他們後面還有四個法警真的還有四個法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8276.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8295.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以總共有五個罰警結果都沒有人認為應該要當庭逮捕所以我們要深自檢討所以表示說我覺得這個相關的啦就是針對這個部分的教育訓練因為其實我們剛剛我想秘書長都一直有提到現在的罰警是人力不足可是依當天的這個案件好像也不是人力不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8295.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8314.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
沒有人力不足的問題只要這樣講一個女子在現場然後有五個法警在現場所以絕對不會是人力不足的問題所以這個可能我覺得是我們的教育訓練出了很大的問題那尤其是剛剛講到說這個要積極修正這個法院組織法因為覺得法源不是那麼的明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8316.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8330.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那請問一下到底是哪裡你覺得法源不夠明確呢其實像關於現行犯這根本不用法處法的法源法警你在維護法院秩序的時候我可能要檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8332.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8356.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
像我們其實我們現在進門的檢查那個法源是稍微有點灰色地帶還有在法庭裡面我要禁止行為如果那個審判長他是忙著他的開庭而沒有注意到旁邊沒有指示法警是不能動的可是有些事情在光在法庭裡面其實可以事先制止 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8357.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8377.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
罰警沒辦法那再罰這個當然秘書長我想你們有相關的SOP但是以這一次的案件來說顯然是都沒有落實所以這也就是招委為什麼今天會排這個專報所以這個部分的話我想秘書長可能要回去要好好的來去研究相關的我們的教育訓練的如何落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8378.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8394.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
未來真正在面臨這樣的狀況的時候我們要怎麼樣去做因為其實有法源但是我覺得是在怎麼判斷方面出了問題所以邀請秘書長針對這個部分因為這邊台中地院就是所謂的首要任務迅速隔離 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8395.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8417.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
就是事實上他既然都隔離了那為什麼不能做現情況的逮捕那還是說司法院其實是法警是不能這樣子有要求法警不能做這樣的作為嗎絕對沒有絕對沒有絕對沒有嘛不過因為這次這個行為事實上是沒有落實事實上是蠻離譜的啦所以說大家會有這樣的一個狀況那 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8420.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8431.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
剛剛您也提到就是說人力不足的問題那請問司法院這邊有沒有針對人力不足的問題有提出什麼樣子的一個具體方案如何解決當然除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8432.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8460.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這個願意讓我們增援是最好在沒有增援之前我們會把法警的職務強度比較高的一定是在法警身上強度比較弱的單純的維持一條線的秩序我們就會放在保全來協助就分散一下法警的工作量可是我必須報告還是不夠因為我們民庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8462.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8483.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
就是沒有法警所以說具體的 我想這個人力要怎麼改善的方案也希望你們有個具體的報告然後送到立法院送到我們司法法治委員會讓我們能夠了解那剛剛昭偉也特別提到了就是針對這部分我們也會非常的支持只要是有必要但重點是法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8484.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8509.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
如何訓練讓他們真正能夠執行他們的勤務我覺得那個才是重點人力就像當天有五個警力在那五個法警在那邊可是卻沒有辦法執行這樣的行為所以說未來請問一下如果再有這樣的狀況發生的話那他們是可以這個還是一樣只要迅速隔離還是可以依法控制現場代理人員然後移交警方呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8510.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8522.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
如果是現行犯本來就是可以當場再送行方本來就可以了我覺得這個部分可能就是麻煩要具體的落實那當然我這邊還想請教張司長一些問題就是針對我們這個經貿辦的顏富新副總談判代表的這個英言早逝那他因為有一個請辭他的請辭書裡面有很清楚的寫到他對CPTPP推動消極敷衍缺乏具體的計畫跟時程深感憂慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8538.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8561.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他多次的提出建言卻沒有被採納甚至提出遭到嚴厲的駁斥那針對這個部分其實現在大家一些媒體都指出應該是有相關的霸凌的事情產生那請問這個部分檢察官可不可以因為我們知道有相關的情勢可以主動展開調查呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8564.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8593.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
跟委員報告那檢察官是知有犯罪嫌疑才會來做主動偵查那一般的這個霸凌的情形到底是什麼樣程度那通常在機關內會先做一個霸凌是否有霸凌事件的一個調查之後那如果其中有涉及到犯罪嫌疑的話機關就會向檢察機關因為其實我看你們之前有很多的案件其實都是看媒體有介入之後你們就主動介入偵辦因為這個符合這個知有其他情事有犯罪嫌疑者 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8593.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8613.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以就是說還是要看那個他媒體不管是媒體或者是說相關的人員他所揭露的一些霸凌的行為是不是已經達到有犯罪嫌疑的一個程度那才會由檢查機關來做一個偵辦那所以如果有這樣犯罪嫌疑程度你們就會積極的這個介入偵辦如果有犯罪嫌疑的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8614.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8636.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那目前的話因為現在這個案子還在調查當中嘛所以說我們也可以看到他也提到就是說他多次的建言遭到這個嚴厲的駁斥所以說如果主管沒有知道問題存在卻長期不處理是不是已經這個涉及公務員這個廢持職務代乎職守的犯罪嫌疑呢那這個部分檢察官是比較差 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8637.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8661.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
公務員廢食植物的罪責其實是相當重的那跟霸凌之間的一個關係這個可能還是要看具體的個案來做一個判斷那這個案子就是說這個部分是不是有到達廢食植物的情形可能也是要先因為以這個案子的話就是說我們可以看到就是說這個我們顏慧欣當然現在我們有很多的資訊出來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8663.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8685.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
他其實也針對這個部分他其實在身心各方面其實都已經受到很大的一個煎熬所以他才會提出辭呈那裡面也都特別講出可是我們可以看到他提出辭呈的前一個月那還是呢這個就是這個我們的經貿辦還是要讓他獨立去面對所有立委的質詢所以這個針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8687.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8705.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
霸凌的疑雲那是不是有可能導致他最後離職是因為這樣的原因那所以這個部分我們還是希望說這個我們的這個檢查機關還是要針對這個部分能夠主動的調查不要等到說到最後就是官官相護到最後就不了了之 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8706.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8731.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
跟委員報告因為本案依照媒體所揭露的大概已經在進行內部的行政調查那如果相關的調查結果出來假設裡面有犯罪嫌疑的話檢察官也會來做我們希望這樣的事情不要再發生在我們的所有的官員身上 謝謝好 謝謝許委員我先做一下程序的宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8733.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8761.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
等會在李坤誠委員詢答完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘好然後呢接下來我們就先請范委員發言好有請我們司法院高秘書長跟法務部的張司長好有請高秘書長跟張司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8768.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8781.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
兩位好今天要跟兩位請教關於就是遭起訴或判刑的醫師懲戒法務部跟司法院能不能協助衛福部借資料不知道兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8783.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8783.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
你看這個照片中 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8807.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8831.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我這邊有出奇的就是有三位女性她們是藥廠的業務事實上這位醫師至少性侵跟性猥褻的至少六位女性在酒中下迷藥醒來的時候她們已經在旅館中全身赤裸這麼嚴重的事情當時一直有非常多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8832.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8859.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那不只是這件你可以看到中間這個2024同樣是台大的名醫那有六位就是包含政壇大樓的媳婦還有台大的女醫師控訴他們被性騷擾然後在最右邊又是台大醫院性侵性騷案那後來一審判刑三年而且這都是有非常多受害者的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8860.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8880.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我要講的事情是這件事情之後其實我們有質詢衛福部衛福部一直表達說他們同意民眾有資格權利所以要有一個所謂的狼醫平台可是我們看到這件事情其實還沒有結束剛剛會上新聞可能他們因為是台大的醫生這裡才今年2月上個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8884.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8901.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
新北也出現婦科的狼醫那他居然藏兒少性影像而且包含病患的私密照而且外流的時間長達九年後來被求重刑兩年兩個月以上我想請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8903.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8916.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
高秘書長如果您是病患或是病患家屬應該覺得有權利要知道我們可以上網查一下就是我的家人要去看的醫師是不是狼醫吧民眾有權知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8918.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8945.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
可以簡單答嗎當然我們希望民眾有權知道可是重點是說你個資方面要怎麼去衛福部就這個部分個資方面他到底要怎麼去完整的呈現你的個資是說狼醫的個資要保護嗎判刑確定的其實是會牽涉到不是只有狼醫各種犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8946.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8971.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我現在講的就是醫生就是說如果他是一般人我們並沒有要處理我現在講的是性侵性騷病患的這種狼醫判刑確定後那如果判刑確定是有判決的那我們判決裡面對於被告姓名是不會的我現在不是講被告我的狼醫平台是說民眾能不能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8972.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8986.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
被告當然要保護吧我現在問你是狼醫對狼醫是被告他的姓名一定出現的一定要不能保護他嗎他不能這樣民眾他如果後來繼續職業或者是借了別人的什麼就是說我們應該要讓民眾有知的權利嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8989.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9008.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
就我們法院這邊的判決來講背後的名字是公佈的我現在問的是那個性侵的狼醫判刑確定之後衛福部要做狼醫平台您同意民眾有權去查我要看的這個婦產科醫師有沒有在那個平台上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9009.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9031.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
有沒有記錄嗎我不能夠替衛福部回答你不用替衛福部回答你從一個公民的角度 民眾有沒有權利知道我當然希望我知道啊好 先讓你知道嘛那我現在告訴你問題在哪裡就是民眾民團跟你一樣覺得應該要公開資訊我們有權利不被狼醫看診我們的家人有權利不要去狼醫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9033.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9055.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
現在衛福部依照醫師法應該要就是說它有兩個部分一個是地方的衛生局就要啟動懲戒然後可以把它停業、廢照、廢證等我們看得出來衛福部畫出了依照衛福的做法我們辦公室畫出了這個流程看起來很完美事件發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9056.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9085.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
行政調查或者是司法程序行人調查就是譬如說台大的醫師他是台大的教授台大自己就可以調查就是那理論上調查確定就要啟動懲戒司法程序確定也要啟動懲戒那司法程序確定那個狼醫專區就是資訊專區衛福部已經做出來了有很大的新聞告訴大家可是呢你如果去看這個部分的話你會發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9087.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9101.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這裡面關於司法程序的兩條線是有問題的因為衛福部的專區裡面他們告訴我們他們僅能夠就新聞有報導的找出有公開的判決書 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9102.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9119.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
如果今天不是台大名醫可能某個地方的醫生沒有人告訴他們媒體沒有報導諮詢專區就沒有欸那那個高秘書長你覺得這會不會是個問題難道只有上新聞的狼醫民眾有權利知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9120.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9147.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
如果就民眾來講當然希望全部都知道當然希望所以從民眾的角度如果是你家人你也希望都知道那我們現在看一下這個是我的辦公室把衛福部弄的狼醫平台這位西醫師你看他的受害者就是相關的醫事人員然後就有這麼多人這邊圈起來的是有判決書的因為衛福部的人找得到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9148.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9173.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
然後呢沒有圈起來的就沒有判決書而且也還沒有懲戒因為相關的資訊是不完整的那這是不是一個問題我們跟衛福部為了這件事情溝通衛福部表示正在和司法院溝通資訊借接因為剛剛也只有2023年後的資料因為他們無法取得請問司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9174.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9197.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你們可不可以協助啊這個衛福部好像覺得很為難因為司法院很大跟你們溝通很困難既然您作為秘書長都同意民眾有知的權利我現在講的不是一般人講的是跟病患有不對等權利關係會接觸到很多人的醫師所以不要跟我說這個太麻煩增加你們負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9199.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9225.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
其實我們都有做你們都有做所以是衛福部講錯了所謂資訊借接這句話我不太了解他的意思可是我們判決如果跟衣食有關的都會送給各地方都有送政府的衛生局都有送衛生局那些衛生局說他們都沒有收到現在是哪方面出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9227.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9239.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那至於他們要不要公開 那我就沒辦法替他們發言好 就是說我現在並不知道是誰推給誰那比較重要是 既然你說都有做那也可以一起送給衛福部吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9241.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9256.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
可不可以加一個衛福部如果你說都有送地方衛生局可以啊 如果是我們單送衛福部也可以可以啊 就可以再送給他們而且我們現在也在進行他們所謂的直接借借平台而不是用判決去傳送的這個事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9259.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9276.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好那反正我現在得到你看監察院都就是說有調查報告那過去光是勞動局北市勞動局就沒有告訴衛生局不過當然那個是另外一個問題所以現在我想講的事情是因為衛生主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9277.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9302.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
他們給我的答覆是說他們只能知道從新聞上知道的看起來司法院沒有跟他們借街好那我們認為不能夠像這個案子就是非台大醫院的其他地方的部長說盡速從嚴處理可是也是因為這個事情上新聞所以部長才會被問那我想既然您都已經提到了你們的借街 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9303.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9331.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那個高秘書長有承諾會告知我們在109年就已經看建立相關刑案資訊借接系統那他們現在是希望能夠更好撈取我們也正在做精進的109年更好撈取109年就把資訊送給他們你說送他們是衛福部嗎衛福部啊還有台北各地方政府的衛生局所以你是給他整批資料叫他自己去撈 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9332.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9347.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
沒有沒有沒有判決一份一份判決都要送出去啊那他們為什麼會有撈取的問題我的意思是說他們現在要更精進的是希望打這個ID就可以在這個網路裡面直接這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9350.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9363.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
能夠什麼挑出來可是這牽涉到因為我們是給資本嘛那我們將來怎麼用電子檔去建立資料庫然後能夠方便的選出來這是他們現在希望要的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9364.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9384.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那我想細節的部分我現在沒辦法釐清到底衛福部講的問題是不是你已經解決的不管怎麼樣那法務部跟司法院這邊可不可以承諾我跟衛福部再次研商如何在醫師起訴跟判決後確實達成資訊流通與借接以確保我們民眾就醫安全這個秘書長您剛講起來聽起來是很願意的可以承諾嗎再開一次會好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9394.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9413.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
是跟衛福部開會嗎跟衛福部我們現在刑事廳都跟他們積極的因為他們給我的不是這樣好不好那法務部也可以吧應該有相關的部分法務部也可以跟委員報告如果那個衛福部他有提出這個要求的話那法務部都會配合跟他們協商看要怎麼樣的一個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9413.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9443.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為我跟衛福部問他就是說好像這個進度是在跟你們借街中就是聽起來有剛講這是這兩天我們才上網查的裡面很多判決書是空的嘛因為只能到什麼2023年之後就之前就沒有好那這樣子可以在開示會會議記錄可以給本席一份跟我們司法法治委員嗎好那相關的報告除了會議記錄之外也給我一份報告好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9443.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9451.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好那謝謝好好一起加油啊好謝謝范雲委員那接下來我們有請李坤城委員發言謝謝主席那我們請司法院的高秘書長那還有這個法務部的張市長好秘書長張市長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9479.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9484.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
秘書長好 市長好我想今天的專報題目跟三月份發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9485.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9505.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
台中的這個律師公會理事長在這個法院裡面被掌裹的這個事件有關係可是我看了這個司法院的報告其實你們在114年7月其實就有這個強化安全的這個措施有事前預警高風險通報的SOP警力盤點跟訓練包含這個罰警的訓練課程等等這個114年就已經有開始這個未雨綢繆結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9514.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9540.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
三月份還發生這種事情所以到底是落實的不夠徹底還是相關的法規還要再做修改如果就單純這個事件是落實的不夠徹底那哪些方面落實的不夠徹底就是第一個他事先其實知道資訊可是你在事先預防其實我們都有說有給他們事先預防的方法一定要隔絕其實當天如果隔絕就不會有事情發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9541.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9552.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
現場沒有隔絕這是第一個再過來就罰警在執行職務的時候過於遲疑其實這個就現行犯嘛就是逮捕嘛他就是遲疑了對 罰警訓練也不夠必須說對於他這個警覺意識的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9558.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9568.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
還是我們現在給他的一些法令讓他在執行勤務的時候不是不是我覺得就是因為有時候可能會讓法警認為說我只要把大家維持好安安靜靜就好了這種觀念是不是太強了而讓他以為說法警不是當核四老法警是要執行公權利嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9580.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9595.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以現行犯就是應該要抓起來這個部分我們真的是深深檢討中我想說這個114年你們就有相關的規定出來了沒有落實所以這個包含本席在內我們有提出這個律師法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9595.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9617.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那律師法的修法其實是參照這個醫療法的修法啦那我們希望說這個增訂不得已非法的方法 妨害律師執行業務然後刻以刑責啦 那而且對法院地檢署及其他執行職務的場所採取必要的安全防護措施 那我想請教一下這一個我們秘書長或是我們司長對於這一個律師法的修法你們的態度咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9617.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9642.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們樂觀其成因為律師他在執行業務上我必須說啦其實律師是為被告辯護那被告的行為有時候可能會讓社會群眾反感那就會把這個恨氣放到律師身上所以律師是應該被保護的我們非常贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9643.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9671.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那 再請教一下就是說 少年事件處理法那現在 因為它要修法的部分很多那我現在就只針對這個塗銷制度來請教一下這個秘書長那 現在的少年事件處理法你只要執行完畢 刑事案件紀錄一律自動除消嘛 對不對那我們現在呢這個司法院有這個修正法它就是說 你有三年的觀察期三年觀察期就是說你有期間內再犯罪一律不准塗銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9672.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9686.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
但是呢 如果期間內未犯的話呢 一律徒消前科啦你們就是單純用時間啦 用時間來做一個評量標準但是呢 包含這個民進黨 我們有立委包含民間團體有提案 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9687.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9713.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
用這個時間來講的話這個其實你也沒有分這個大概是輕罪還是重罪那是不是應該我們要分這個輕罪跟重罪如果它是這個是屬於重大刑案的話我們改採就是禁止自動塗銷改採這個動態註記的方式就是我們至少分輕罪跟重罪嘛那不是說時間一到你也不管他之前犯的是輕罪還是重罪我一律塗銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9714.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9733.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
是其實我們前面提出來版本是沒有因應到最近割喉案所發生其實社會對於肇事法這個老不是講蠻舊的法這個要求我們現在已經在對於要把它層級化分成五級五級對那有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9736.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9759.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
確定塗銷 有一年塗銷 有三年塗銷 五年塗銷 跟七年塗銷看他的再犯的罪值 來做一個階層式比較符合比例原則可是你們還是按照年嘛 那我剛意思是說 是不是按照說他之前犯的罪他犯的罪如果是屬於重罪的話 不是說我一年到了 三年到了 五年到了 然後就把他塗銷掉這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9759.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9764.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我讓我們那個細節我請我們稍事聽中廳長回答可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9767.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9792.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
是 委員好剛剛委員的槌詢確實是我們這個觀察期是一個條件之一另外我們會加上他再犯的一個犯罪值的輕重去審查基本上這個年限只是一個條件之一而已如果重罪他所犯都是五年以上的那麼這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9794.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9819.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
又再換那這個時候要看他再換的最值我們在這七年的觀察期會有不一樣的一個審查條件我們會設計好那可是這個是你們送來版本沒有的嘛對不對對即將要再送進來即將要再送進來是是好不好那這個那會後再把資料再給我一下好了好不好因為現在民間團體也很重視這件事情就是說之前你們就連線 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9821.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9835.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
靜態你沒有去區分說到底是輕罪還是重罪那說再犯的這個可能性是怎麼樣那我覺得要用動態的方式來做處理啦我覺得對於被害者來講這個會比較就是說站在他們立場來考慮這件事情啦好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9838.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9857.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好 謝謝李委員那麼有關於這個對於防害律師執行職務的相關處罰以及科與刑責的部分現在民進黨委員以及包含本席在內我們其實都有提了相關的修法那麼當然也很希望法務部還有司法院能夠支持那我也會在近期之內有機會的話就會來排 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9860.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9868.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個法案來主導審查那麼如果說法務部這邊也有提案的話也請可以儘速提出好 謝謝那我們中間休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10187.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10204.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會 那麼接下來有請洪孟楷委員謝謝主席謝謝 麻煩請那個司法院秘書長好 請高秘書長好 秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10211.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10235.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我想我們今天感謝周偉排這個專報那最主要也是因為看到三月中的這一個法院律師受到攻擊的一個事件但這個應該不會是一個個案啦我覺得我們應該要整體的檢討是說到底我們現在在各法院開這個開庭的時候有沒有這種治安或說秩序沒有辦法維持的一個狀況也因此我想要講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10236.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10263.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
就是從2018年其實也有調查新竹地院的人犯逃脫事件當時也有看到是三名法警輪值而造成說沒有加派戒護而有這個狀況那可不可以現在比較明確的讓我們知道過去一年或過去三年裡面到底我們在法院上面有多少這樣子的一個不管是攻擊事件 攜帶違紀品或者是說妨礙法庭秩序的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10264.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10284.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們有沒有做相關的統計有 其實各法院都會有相關資料只是我手邊一下子沒辦法告訴委員說總共大概會有幾件因為我們比較難理解的是說法院照理講它就是一個最公家機關而且它是一個這個執法機關那在這裡面都沒有辦法維持秩序可是另外一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10285.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10297.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
換過頭來講 您剛剛也有提到委員諮詢也有講 畢竟是兩兆雙方都在那邊所以說可能難免情緒的一個部分所以現在到底哪一些法院的這個妨礙法庭秩序的狀況是比較嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10299.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10317.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我相信各法院防害法庭秩序應該都不會很嚴重只是說我們不容許有一件法庭這是最重要剛剛委員提到戴偉晉平出入法院其實是很多所以我們第一線法警在門口是非常落實在檢查這個偉晉平的吸入 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10318.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10339.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
是所以那這樣子是不是能夠給本席一個相關資料好不好就是說過去一年或過去三年裡面我們這個違禁的行為是違禁的行為或是危害秩序的行為這邊有一個統計是好來那再來本席也想要跟您就討論一下就是說因為在法院上面這個是另外本席在 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10340.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10362.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
聽到很多的陳情這也是過去到現在很多團體要求的就是說在法院上面其實在被害者的角色就加害者他當然他就是坐在這個然後這個檢察官跟他來做一個審理但被害者不管是被害者或被害者家屬其實他都沒有一個固定的座位甚至說被害者或被害者家屬沒有辦法去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10363.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10384.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
案件的一個陳述可能最後法官要判決的時候會請被害者或被害者家屬來講述一下意見但實際上他都已經走完整個這個程序了好那我們現在也有人講是說是不是應該要針對這個部分來修法我想請教一下秘書長您的看法呢關於這個刑事訴訟法關於被害人參與的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10386.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10400.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
其实很多人不管律师不管是法律学者也都有相关的建议我想这已经不是第一次了但是本席因为我们也正式提出了案件也有很多的委员共同的参与联署也因此我今天特别利用这个机会来就教一下秘书长 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10401.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10424.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是其實在這個刑事訴訟法裡面是有規定在科刑程序前就像委員所說的一定要讓這個被害人參與但現在唯一就是剛剛委員也提到我們在法組法上面關於被害人在法庭的席位我們是沒有規定所以我們這次也要把它列入讓被害人他們有個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10426.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10441.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
不是有席位不是專用席位被害人的專用席位是就被害人的專屬位就說不是說他跟著這個旁聽席坐在那邊不是旁聽席他是會坐在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10446.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10473.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們是沒有把他列出一個專用席可是會請他跟檢察官坐在一起如果他到庭的話會請他坐在因為那邊剛好有空位他就請他坐我們是沒有一個名牌的專用席這樣子而已南邊部長我想確認一下是現行就已經這樣做了還是說你們預計要做這樣的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10478.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10495.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
各個法官請秘書長可以把麥克風靠近一點這個細節可不可以請我們私行聽來 檢要說明一下沒有問題 檢要說明一下跟委員報告其實就是因為法院組織法授權司法院應該訂立一個法院的席位的佈置規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10497.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10513.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那確實我們現在在法庭的以刑事法庭為例他會有設一個區域是給刑事的被害人跟告訴人做的那我們當時盡量是把他安排在比較接近這個檢察官的位置就是不是接近被告的那一端 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10514.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10531.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那剛剛秘書長說的確實沒錯就是因為有時候被害人比較多的時候那那個席位可能會不太夠所以就會稍微往旁邊做一些但是基本上我們還是法官的訴訟指揮還是會盡量讓被害人跟被告這邊會有區隔那秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10531.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10546.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
既然我們已經有往這個方向來邁進了那本席也講是說那就是不是能夠有法治化或說更明確的一個規範那以及就是說在這個案件的審理過程當中被害人或是被害人家屬的意見表達其實也是相關重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10547.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10575.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
因為來你麥克風可以按開沒關係沒問題其實刑事訴訟法已經規定了法官在訴訟指揮上面本來就是要讓這個被害人要去陳述意見但我們現在看到很多的實際的狀況會是到最後已經都審理完畢法官可能再給被害人或是被害人家屬一個說明的機會但這個時候也許早已經有自由心證也許早已經判決就已經差不多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10576.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10595.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以我想是說這個部分就會變成是說到底他的重要性跟他的一個位置意見表達的時候到哪裡其實這也是很多的被害者有很多的一些民間團體他們一直在陳情的狀況我想現在其實在柯行陳述的時候應該會有可能他對於被害影響陳述這個區塊我們如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10599.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10614.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
各界還是質疑法官在審判程序上是不是給這些被害人更多的陳述機會我們會在教育上再次提醒其實法規是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10615.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10630.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們會再次的來提醒法官所以我想秘書長其實你回答蠻正向的就是說也認為是說應該要參照如果一個案件裡面被害者最直接的他的意見其實表達也算是重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10631.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10654.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以未來本席如果說我們提出相關修法的時候我們會進一步就教那針對這部分我們也希望司法院是一個比較開放的態度能夠往我們審理更好的公平正業方向來邁進那最後一點我只簡單提醒一下因為也是很多的陳情跟抱怨是說我們現在書記官的人數確實不足尤其是現在新收案2022年357萬件這全國法 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10658.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10672.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
法院到2025年也許會突破425萬件但是書記官的報導率只有50%左右而且全國缺額超過400人哪一個法院缺額最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10674.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10691.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我們前三名是應該是就是沒有報到最多那就是北三院就案件量也最大最大的然後可能案件的複雜性也最高然後可能他的相關的這個內容也最繁瑣然後他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10692.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10712.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
缺席率就是沒有報道率最高那我們要怎麼樣因為這已經不是冰凍三尺非一日之寒這不是第一次的問題那其實司法法治委員會幾乎每個會期都會有委員提醒但到目前為止感覺缺口是越來越大是跟委員首先當然要謝謝這個趙偉還有我們委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10717.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10734.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
支持我們讓書記官的專業佳績提高了到六千多塊雖然不多 也是用感覺可是跟委員報告其實以書記官現在的業務量跟早期的他的工作量來講其實我個人認為一股的法官應該有兩個書記官因為我們一個是書面處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10739.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10758.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
卷證是書面處理一個是電腦處理其實就是兩份工作其實這也是為什麼書記官會不來報到是最大的原因他等於是一個人做兩份工作那再過來那當然後續是一樣工作可是就是兩份工作那我們還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10760.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10776.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
薪水很低 職等很低其實書記官剛進來4萬塊那如果一進來就是這麼恐怖的工作的話所以我們常常會有第二天報到完第二天就不來了是 本次也看到 董事長當然您的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10778.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10794.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
第一線同仁的委屈我們都理解但是您是衛秘書長這不能變成是抱怨大會所以我現在本席提出來是說能夠協助我們都來願意來協助但重點是第一源額的問題嘛第二是待遇的問題那待遇司法法治委員會已經有協助加這個津貼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10796.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10817.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好 那我們現在要問的是原額問題有沒有計畫來去爭取以及怎麼解決這才是我們想要看到的這也是才能讓第一線的書記官放心是說真的司法院有在動作好 公委員報告原額部分我們是一直在爭取一直被拒絕被誰拒絕人總啊人總 那人總上面是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10824.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10848.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
不是 這很心酸啊對啊 就這樣啊 可是我們真的是那另外 老實說啦 求人還是要求己來 那這樣子 我說實在話每年五院不是我們新春開春的時候總統都召集五院院長查序嗎除了立法行政院長有去的時候我們司法院院長他去的時候也應該跟總統反映一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10849.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10874.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們希望 對我們會努力 真的我很持平的講是因為我們也有很多同的這種法律相關的這一些科系的從業人員或是書記官的朋友那確實第一線的辛苦如同您剛剛講的您剛剛講都算保守你說兩份工作你說這一些行政都需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10875.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10889.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我們現在要看的是中華民國政府是一體的要拿出辦法而不是你推我我推你那到最後不然就是請召委我們再排一次請任總跟司法院一起來然後兩項對質另外還有一個總緣額法其實這邊如果突破人數的話就突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10891.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10904.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那是不是能夠提出來我覺得這個本來就是司法院本來就是行政院本來也可以提的我們一起來努力但重點在於是說不要我們這個變成是我們變成是一個考古題變成是一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10907.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10933.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這樣講比較抱歉啦就是會期題啦月經題會期題就變成是每一次會期開始之後我們就就一直又問這個問題但本席為什麼今天還特別感謝趙偉多給我一些時間但本席為什麼多提出來就是因為如果再不動作的話缺口只會越來越大那您剛剛也已經講到了書記官現在的工作根本就是兩人工作那一股只有一個書記官的話那根本做不來根本的問題連我們自己的子女可能都不想讓他去當書記官 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10934.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10945.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
跟委員報告 中研合法我們不是主管機關那也是要溝通啊 也是要突破啊對啊 我們就要突破 對 我們一定是溝通突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10946.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10974.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
本席今天點出這個問題我希望看到司法院積極的態度不管是跟其他行政部門的溝通積極態度我們這邊立法院一定會幫忙推一把但重點是司法院要積極的態度因為你們身為主管機關就應該要來為第一線的書記官發聲好不好我一定會再繼續追這個議題我們一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝好 那麼接下來我們請徐巧欣委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10984.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10989.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
謝謝主席那我們一樣是請這個司法院高秘書長好請高秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10994.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11020.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
欸 秘書長好我一樣跟這個孟愷委員一樣要關心就是某一位這個地院的這個書記官所謂全數陣亡意思就是呢新到任的書記官待不滿一年的這個事情喔那我想你們已經非常了解了可是呢可以看一下就是很多的這個書記官呢他們講說說老實話我希望呢事情鬧得越大越好法院與檢察署的書記官工作越來越繁雜繁重 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11022.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11041.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這種管考卻沒有減少同事呢每天加班做到八點還做不完為了接小孩只好趕五點下班再去加五六個小時的班幾乎沒有什麼時間陪孩子司法院的長官如果再不重視這個問題呢那就司法體系乾脆就是崩潰雖然他們很期待這一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11042.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11059.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我講這個事情是剛才講說人不夠但是你也提到了就是要自立自強這個無論如何能夠處理的內部處理的要處理像這樣子的情況就是我們的書記官他的工作繁重到 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11061.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11086.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
送完小孩還要回來週末再加五六個小時的班以及各種管考沒有減少這是不是在我們管理上面也可以做一些改變讓流財這件事情變得有可能跟委員報告就是因為如果人員能夠到期一切就是因為人員沒辦法到期其實我們各法院都很努力把書記官的工作後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11087.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11113.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
比較那個束縛型的工作能夠有這個委外人力來協助讓書記官的工作就完全在前階段的法庭筆錄跟前階段的卷證處理這個是我們希望讓書記官工作能夠切一塊出去讓他減少另外一個我們努力的是我們當然書記官我們要讓他不要無心加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11114.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11141.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以我們也在提高他的加班費然後另外我們也是運用我們可以用的這個二等數據官三等升二等二等升一等的原額的配套讓數據官能夠看到明天好 那您剛剛講的是一回事可是我們在實際上面遇到另外一個狀況是您剛剛一直強調說希望人能夠增加但是在原本的原額上面那大家都一直在走 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11142.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11162.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那就是另外的管理问题了那就是另外的问题我们来看一下这个数据从112年到114年书记官原额以及到离职的人数调查表无论台北或新北的地院离职的人数都多于到职的人数我们看112年这个数据我们一个一个来看 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11163.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11184.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
112年的時候呢這個道指21人這個台北帝院離職20人然後呢新北帝院112年道指24人離職28人也就是說你今天所謂的人數不只是說你想說人總給你的元額不夠多就算給你的元額多了離職的人還是比道指的人多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11184.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11191.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
113年一模一樣台北地院倒值28離職28新北地院倒值25離職28114年這個更誇張倒值的台北地院倒值50人離職52人114年倒值59離職56所以連續的三年112 113 114你原額在那個地方但是你倒值的人數跟離職的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11213.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11218.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
相減之後 要嘛等於零甚至是複數的情況那想要請問一下 你們有沒有了解為什麼從112到114會有這樣的情況發生以及檢討要怎麼做能夠讓道指跟禮指的人數不要進來的人跟出去的人一樣甚至超過呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11232.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11247.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
跟委員報告 當然我必須要說 第一個是薪資薪資真的是你跟外部的工作量來比較 留不住他第二個 為什麼倒置他馬上離開 因為我一進來就是兩份工作 我看了我就走 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11248.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11263.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那我們現在要努力的就是說讓他的兩份工作中間的有一份工作能夠讓其他的委外人員來處理這是我們最努力的方向讓他進來覺得說我就是只有一份工作我才會留職 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11264.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11279.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個是我們最努力的方向另外一個要讓他看到明天我們希望加薪 加班費 加職等這個我們能夠用的全力都是在用這個方面115年有信心做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11281.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11301.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
反轉嗎沒有信心那我們再看一下您剛剛講的這個加班的事情加班絕對不是只要提高加班費大家就願意加班沒有人是願意的應該是我原本的工作到哪裡我就做到哪裡加班那是叫做例外而例外是本來該給加班費 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11302.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11323.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
所以就算你把加班費調高如果你的工作沒有讓他在一個合理的範圍裡面就算有加班費人家也不一定願意做這個工作來看一下新北地院的工作時數我把台北跟新北的都拉出來給你看喔你可以特地看我時間有限我們看新北地院的就好新北地院的加班時數從112年的39小時到114年變成了44小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11328.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11342.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
在114年的12月平均喔來到53小時所以我的意思是說你們現在一直告訴我說你們要調整你們要讓大家的工作的loading變小可是也從數據上看來並不是這樣子啊從數據上來看是增加的耶你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11346.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11349.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
從台北地院112年一路到114年從本來30等等的一直平均開始到42114年幾乎台北地院都40幾欸 114年12月新北地院到53個小時欸這個簡直就是過勞的情況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11364.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11378.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以我的意思是說你們如果長時間有關心這些書記官他們的加班時數狀況你們有盡可能去掌握的話那不是說提高加班費是你要盡可能去降低大家的加班時數的問題請問最後這一點要怎麼樣的去改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11383.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11402.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
就跟委員剛剛報告其實我們從114年就開始要把書記官一部分工作移給委外人員那這一段其實從114年什麼時候開始要做這件事的我們114年最早在我高本院院長任內我們二月就開始做二月開始那顯然成效度高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11403.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11423.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
沒有啊 我們高本院我想 我現在要推行到各地院你們要去落實這一件 另外 老實說啦案件量太大 即使切一半出去 老實說為什麼加班這麼多同樣的法官加班也這麼多 除非我們要把法官受案量減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11424.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11441.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
如果法官收案量不減少書記官永遠是這樣是沒有錯啦但是你弄到最後都沒有書記官了那也是那也是一樣啊那你都沒有書記官了那你一樣你這個庭怎麼開呢所以無論如何我知道面對這樣的一個挑戰你們是辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11441.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11454.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
但是你問題還是得解決的你問題一天沒有解決你讓大家到職離職每年到職離職的人數是一樣的然後那你說希望人總在開多少圈你們那有用嗎你開了這麼多圈到職的人然後又離職的人然後到職減離職等於零那跟沒有是一樣的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11459.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11472.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以這以上幾個重點要請你們一定要去理清今天非常多的委員都在關心這件事情那希望這個文明市長可以再多去想想還有沒有其他的辦法能夠再做調整謝謝謝謝許曉欣委員的發言好那接下來我們再請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11485.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11501.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好的那麼今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢然後詢答結束那麼委員質詢的時候所要求提供相關資料或是已書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會好 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11503.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11528.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那麼委員蔡奇昌吳宗憲所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關以書面答覆好的那麼我們今天的會議就到此結束然後也辛苦了這個高明署長今天算是第一次來我們司法委員會然後接受備詢那麼也謝謝您好那我們就今天的會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝大家辛苦了 |