| IVOD_ID |
17306 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17306 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-5-35,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-26T08:35:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-26T11:00:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:24:35 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2df41f26c1e609cb725d95d6d2321d649044e0a145e6cc6f0f98e51c4c7118384b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。三、本院國民黨黨團擬具「強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案」案。(3月23日、3月25
日及26日三天一次會)） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:25 - 11:00:00 |
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那我們繼續開會先來介紹在場的委員還有與會的官員陳永康委員好 謝謝許巧欣委員謝謝王安祥委員謝謝王逸川委員謝謝沈伯陽委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1552.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1580.846 |
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接下来介绍我们在场的与会官员那部长顾立雄部长谢谢财政部的政务次长阮清华次长谢谢次长法务部的参事廖江县参事谢谢参事行政院主级总组副主级长陈慧娟副主级长谢谢学习人员请参考会议桌上的所附资料谢谢那我们继续审查民众党党团提案第六条有关收支规划财务计划的条文请大家翻到 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1582.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1586.497 |
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條文對照表的第26頁那首先我們先請提案黨團民眾黨黨團說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1597.755 |
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1622.19 |
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主席大家早,應該是我們的第六條,就是二十七條上面我們基本上還是一樣,因為我們台灣民眾黨一向是非常重視財政紀律所以基本上我們希望在籌編定期預算的時候要考慮現在大家生活上非常多的所謂的少子女化的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1622.93 |
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1641.944 |
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所以希望能夠提供這個預算基本上對一些少子女化的相關的政策的一些衝擊的一些報告以上謝謝委員的說明接下來我們請主管機關說明請行政院主計總處或者是財政部或者兩位都一起表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1643.402 |
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1656.9 |
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主席總處在這邊跟各位委員做一個報告就是說民進黨團所提這個條文實際上我們現在就是這樣在辦理就是在我們訂定的中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1658.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1680.486 |
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及地方政府預算籌編原則也有類似的一個條文不過我們是考量就是說這個不管是高齡或少子女化我們在近年我們都有編特別預算的情形之下我們都還是有成長以少子女化來看107年194億到115年已經成長到1136億 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1686.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1709.155 |
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所以可以看得出來我們都是有遵照這個條文在辦理所以我們是建議說因為往年的特別條例都沒有特別在續名這個因為已經有規範了是不是在體力上讓他一致就不用在這邊做再一次的規範以上做一個說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1714.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1740.022 |
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財政部表示意見嗎?這樣就可以了嗎?不用一樣的意見是尊重主計總署的意見所以財政部的意見大概一致那這個部分是不是請王委員要不要考慮一下行政院主計總署的說明因為好像是基本上把條上都是一致的嘛已經都在做對那是否還要有增訂這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1743.8 |
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1764.502 |
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我們黨團這邊的決議基本上就是希望這個算是一次提醒因為這次特別條例的經費其實蠻高所以寫在這邊可能是一種比較希望能夠提醒現在我們這個社會高齡跟少子女化的一個狀況謝謝王委員 那請徐小新委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1766.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1792.828 |
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呃我的建議是因為在這個第六條那只有這個台灣民眾黨提嘛那我想我們這邊沒有提案那對這個提這個提沒有太大的意見那呃所以我是建議說我們也是把他送這個協商保留啊也可以加快我們的審議速度謝謝好謝謝許曉勳委員我們補充介紹羅美玲委員好謝謝還有然後沈伯陽委員巴雅 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1794.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1809.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
馬文君委員我想這個最後應該會是保留大家在保留之前我想發表一下意見就是第六條前半段就是說這個要衡量人口結構變動因素啊什麼這聽起來應該本來就在做的事情剛剛主席總書也有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1810.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1838.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
啊但因為這是特別條例啦齁它不是放在公務預算那你最主要會影響到其他或什麼白籍啦什麼那是指在公務預算啊因為它今天是特別條例特特別條例的原因就是不要影響到公務預算啊公務預算就會處理高齡化跟少子少子化這些問題所以就是說啊今天變特別條例的目的就是這樣子所以有這個這個你你編了特別條例你就是不會去擠壓到其他的公務預算啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1839.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1860.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我覺得這個後半段感覺是有點有點 對有點奇怪啦 有點突兀啦所以當然我們就發表一下這樣的意見我們補充 謝謝沈博洋委員我們補充介紹陳俊銘委員 劉徐庭委員黃建斌委員 馬文君委員接下來請馬文君委員之後 請羅美玲委員發言馬委員要發言嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1868.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1884.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
是劉許廷文要發言還是不好意思現在是剛才我們想確認一下第六條是還有要發言的嗎沒有了喔 抱歉我剛剛看你們手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1889.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1907.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我是贊同沈博洋委員的這個說法因為我們現在要審的是特別條例不是一般預算所以就沒有到擠壓到所謂社福的這個支出的這個問題而且真的是放在這裡真的是有一點不倫不類所以我是覺得建議這個應該要拿掉好 以上謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1912.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1930.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這條議案是民眾黨提的不過我們剛剛在聽到委員的說法其實負債就是負債它對所有的財政其實都是有正面影響的所以不是說把它編在特別預算就跟我們的財政狀況會切割然後就不會有負債或不會有排擠你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1931.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1948.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
財政狀況它都會互相排擠我相信這個執政黨還有相關的單位非常清楚所以這個部分如果說沒有影響那我們也尊重提案的一個考量如果沒有公示當然我們還是送協商不過我覺得財政的規劃財政的紀律這是要有並納入考量的 謝謝好 王玉川委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1960.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1984.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這一條放在這裡很突兀 台灣民眾黨你要考慮一下特別條例放這一條以後每一個特別條例你們都要放這一條不然就代表以後你們不重視了因為這句話是一個常識是一個大家都知道的事情你硬要在這裡放這一條那以後只要立法院通過特別條例台灣民眾黨都一定要提這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1984.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2002.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不然就是以後你們不重視不然為什麼這一條會這麼突兀的放在這裡然後別的特別條例都沒有放這一條所以這個我是建議不要啦因為要不然要大家大家特別條例每一個法案的修訂都多這一條聽起來都很有道理然後完全沒有意義好 謝謝劉許廷委員先然後再請王安祥委員抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2014.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2028.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這我覺得是這樣就是說因為這一次特別條例額度比較高所以總是有多一分重視所以我想有黨團提出這樣子的意見我相信大家可以理解是利益良善但一樣就是說這件事情從幾個層面來看第一個叫做可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2029.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2056.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是說如果這件事情有影響軍購預算執行等等會造成實際上的障礙那就要在討論的過程中及早續名然後大家想到一個好的方法如果它相對來講對可行性是沒有影響的本來就是例行的那我覺得大家心態放寬一點也不是不視為一個方法那我覺得像這些都是比較詳細比較細節的配套措施就如同我們昨天在討論的時候我有建議嘛就是政府部門針對這些比較說配套的或者說一些補充說明的這樣子的一些的法條如果能夠做一個中整 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2056.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2080.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後要提出一個有效而且精簡也務實的建議的話我倒覺得可以提出來然後大家共同商議達成共識我認為這是可以努力的方向 以上謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員我們補充介紹林楚英委員跟王定一委員那接下來請王安祥委員我說明一下因為昨天其實那個第五條我們其實有設計一個專報所以因為昨天那個都已經就是保留宋協商那是不是應該有一些我們其實這個這一條跟第五條有一些連動 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2081.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2108.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
既然第五條已經保留我們是不是建議第六條也是保留然後送協商以上OK 好 那黃定委員要發言然後黃定委員發言完之後請顧部長我們這幾天還是很努力希望是真的溝通能夠達成共識雖然很多條文其實私底下我們談起來好像好像可以有共識但是不好意思這個黨派之間還是阻礙了很多東西的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2109.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2134.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這一條是這樣子沒有人會反對人口結構啦高齡化這些設計啦那它適不適合出現在這個條文就好像我今天在交通委員會要討論安全貿是500塊錢還是350比較好我裡面再加住一條條文說提出條文之前我要把人口結構老化什麼放在裡面沒有人反對這個宗旨是這個條文出現在這裡面五年後十年後回來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2136.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2151.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
適不適合了那其實有一個另外一種做法就是說我們在立法要職裡面把它載明說這樣子的國防支出那我們怕預算排擠啦或者什麼其他考量的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2152.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2171.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們希望整個行政部門就這件事情呢提出一些看法或專報或說明而不是在法條的本身那既可以達到王陽祥委員重視這個高齡化的重視這些人口結構等等的想法又不是在法律的本文 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2172.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2191.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
坦白講它不是直接正相干的一個條文這樣安排是不是比較妥適所以請提案的委員跟我們委員會可以思考就是說這個條文的內容放在哪裡都覺得是不是壞事但是它沒有必要出現在法律的本文裡面我們可以把它放在立法要旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2191.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2210.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
或者附帶決議認為說我們關心到預算的動之排擠相關的因應請行政部門因為這不是國防部單一的事情行政部門就這個事情呢提出一些說明或看法這樣可以兩全其美在條文上比較扎實那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2212.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2239.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
個別委員或個別黨團關心的事務上呢也做到兼顧啦以上我做這個建議好 謝謝王委員那 顧部長說明之後林楚英委員我只是建議就是說因為那個第五條已經就這個相關的涉及到這個舉債的額度還有那個相關的這些要符合財政紀律的相關規範第五條的規範然後另外在第五條裡面有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2239.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2260.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
當然我們會希望就是說不會是說專案報告會要同意才能夠再提預算那如果提出預算案的時候要兼提一個報告那我們會將這個報告再柔和這個大家的意見然後再提出來那所以其實民眾黨第六條可以併到他那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2262 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2273.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
要求那個報告事項內容我們可以再相對提出一些文字上面的一個修正然後再來看看大家是不是有共識這樣子好 謝謝部長那林楚瑩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2279.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2296.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
謝謝主席其實我相信民眾黨寫第六條的時候一定是希望能夠考量權衡到民生的需求那這個利益我相信其實在場的所有的委員沒有人會反對但是為什麼會有一個所謂的特別預算不放在年度預算或是中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2297.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2319.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
其實就是因為希望把這樣的一個預算匡列出來之後然後讓總預算或是社會福利的預算能夠好好的去做執行那麼我也認為因為像這一次我們前面通過的這個組織機關事實上就是國防部那麼國防部跟其他的包括負責社會福利或者是少子化等等議題的其實是另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2320.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2325.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
部會那麼你在一個國防部組織的這樣的一個特別條例未來要編列預算的單位當中你還要去把這個別的部會的納管的議題做一個大前提放進來這個其實在政府的整個權力的所謂分工上面其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2339.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2355.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
法例上面是有點奇怪的所以我也同意就像王立委員所說的我們可以把大前提寫在前面的提案的說明上面那麼我相信這樣的一個以社會福利跟少子化為優先我想這個應該也是屬於全民共識啦所以我會認為這樣的文字跟內容事實上可以放在所謂的法案說明當中我覺得會是更加燙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2367.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2379.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
謝謝林楚雲委員所有委員應該都有表示意見了想再確認一下剛才顧部長的建議在野黨的黨團們是否能夠接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2385.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2412.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那我們民主進步黨的委員我們是不是就OK那我們看起來沒有共識就是進入暫停暫且先保留起來好謝謝那補充介紹黃仁委員好謝謝那我們接續審查行政院提案第六條民眾黨黨團提案第七條國民黨黨團提案第七條有關於預算執行及審計的條文先請主管機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2416.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2439.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們的條文就是依循過往這個特別條例的一個這個內容就是說預算的執行這個要審計機關要依法辦理審計來說明我們還是要接受就是這個條例的預算相關的執行都是還是要接受審計的並沒有脫離監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2444.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2472.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好謝謝部長我們請提案黨團民眾黨黨團說明好這個我們這個當然剛國防部這邊有提到部長說的那當然還是必須要依照審計機關的一些事項辦理不過我們在這個條文裡面這個把那個俄康的编詞寫得更清楚當然就是事前的部分我們其實也加入了這個所謂的事後的部分也是屆滿這個次年的五月底前必須要做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2473.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2498.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
總結的報告另外我想第三項是我們那時候討論的時候其實非常重要的一件事情就是達到3000美元以上的軍事投資的建案我們希望能夠落實所謂的軍工工業合作的部分所以我們這次也把這樣的概念寫在我們的第七條的第三項裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2500.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2526.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第四項就是書面報告的部分必須要同時送到立法院來被查大概就這幾項就是台灣民主黨對於整個不議題的部分的意見 以上沒有第三項 就是綜合的 綜合的 後面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2543.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2548.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那好呃民眾黨團說明完之後我們請國民黨黨團說明好不要好不要訪問委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2562.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2570.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
國民黨黨團先說明我代表黨員,不是黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2576.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2594.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 針對第七條的這個部分這一條是為了確保國防預算的使用具有外部的一個監督經過延宕這件事已經讓國人非常的不滿這方面還是應該建立了一個明確的行政責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2595.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2618.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
國防特別預算不只是要花錢,而是要在對戰力成果的負責根據過去對美軍購的經驗錢花了,且遲遲無法建立戰力那會有這樣的一個餘力,不是沒有道理的如果有這麼大筆的錢花下去,看不到成果,還沒有人需要負責的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2619.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2639.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那我想這個民主國家責任的一個政治該由誰負責的一個樣貌所以以上來好反應謝謝謝謝黃安委員那等一下請委員回覆等一下委員要發言之前我們先請這個剛才有提到組織總署要表示意見組織總署針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2645.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2665.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
就是主席總署針對民眾黨團的版本第七條第一項的第二款裡面提到主管機關依預算法第六十三條辦理流用前應經立法院同意那我們在這邊做一個報告就是有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2667.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2693.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個流用的規定當時設計是在年度預算的時候考量年度預算的籌編到真正執行有很長一段時間所以賦予行政部門有一個可以流用的規定所以這是一個授權的一個規定那以往在特別條例的部分甚至可以排除這個流用的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2694.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2722.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那今天這個黨團所提這個條文是比年度預算流用的規定更為嚴格就是說本來是有授權的現在還要經過立法院同意那我們考量就是說國防特別預算就是基於83條它的一個緊急的特性所以我們建議這個條文這個流用要立法院同意這個部分是不是可以刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2729.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2735.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
謝謝主席總書的說明那在這邊要補充嗎沒有好那法務部要不要補充一下剛剛在主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2741.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2768.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那我們針對國民黨團提案的版本第7條第7條的第三項部分提供一點意見就是說第7條的第三項是規定審計機關在本條例的這個計劃進行這個它的執行成效進行這個考核那如果發現了有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2770.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2789.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
公務人員違法失職導致執行成效不彰的這種情形應將執行機關的首長跟相關主管移送監察院來調查懲戒這個部分是涉及到預算計劃執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2792.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2819.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
的監督考核那關於這個部分審計法跟監察法呢有明確的這個規定然後審計法就預算計劃的這個執行他的監督考核呢他設置有這個完整的集合制度那對於呢公務人員如果有違法失職或者是執行績效低落的這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2820.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2841.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
依照審計法的規定他們本來就可以報請監察院來依法處理那監察院依監察法的規定如果發現公務人員有違法失職的這種情勢那他們是向懲戒機關提出這一個彈劾案那也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2843.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2860.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
監察院他們調查彈劾的對象是違法失職的人員那後續的程序呢也是向懲戒機關也就是懲戒法院來提出彈劾案那是不是構成彈劾那是不是構成懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2862.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2883.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個部分還有賴於懲戒法院後續的司法審理程序所以我們查案是直接標定如果有違法失職的這種情勢發生的時候標定是直接將機關的這個首長跟相關主管移送監察院去調查懲戒那這樣的一個設計我想跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2885.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2896.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
審計法還有監察法剛才所提的這些規定有違禁相符的地方這一個部分是健全大院能夠斟酌審議以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2907.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2923.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 謝謝訪問部的說明那接下來我們因為剛才有依次是陳永康委員 王定宇委員 黃建斌委員跟李楚音委員 然後徐曉欣委員那我們先請然後馬文君委員沒有漏掉了好 那我們先請陳永康委員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2928.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2945.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主席 各位同仁 我在这边提出一个意见供我们的台湾民众党 包括王委员我提出一个建议 请供做参考在您的第7条的下面快总结的时候 主管机关 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2946.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2972.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
就第四條核定循外購程序採購金額3000萬以上的這種軍事投資建案應該將工業合作納入規劃那我這邊做一個補充說明根據美國國防部現在叫戰爭部的安和局他的FMS軍售的這個採購的要求裡面軍售是不含攻核不含計轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2973.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2992.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那如果你要把这个公和要求放进去它是外加假设你3000亿美元的这个军售案你要求公和10%那就变成3300万这个300万的公和他再把这300万的公和转给美国的得标厂商 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2993.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3015.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
可是這300萬是我們國防部要出的可是300萬轉給國防廠商以後它變成美元點它的實質價值可能不到你原來的一半所以對國防部來講在軍售案要加工合可能是不划算的商售是有工合的是從內涵在做抵銷這個我提供您做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3019.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3037.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好 謝謝陳永康委員接下來請王定宇委員好 謝謝主席我第一點跟陳永康委員提的是一樣因為供貨點的運用放在軍購就是說我們的不管是我們在FMS跟DCS的差異你把它放在FMS對國家是不划算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3039.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3058.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們昨天已經談到這個概念FMS跟DCS軍售跟商售都是我們國家合法取得軍事裝備的方式也都要該國的國家政府的輸出許可不是因為一個商它就好像跟民間做生意一樣它其實是取得方式不一樣各有優缺點 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3060.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3088.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
軍售軍購透過軍售透過FMS是要跟該國政府的軍方透過美國陸軍部去採購的那個這個炮兵雷達等等這個是軍售案那他要繳一個服務費按照這個比例的百分之多少交給對方固定的那採購的話是他們該國的軍方呢會把幾個國家一起來買等於是代買代送那裡面很多行政作業是由該國政府處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3089.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3116.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那商售是我們尋求契約商而契約商要得到該國通過之後那我們雙方在簽訂商業契約的時候不管是公合、寄轉、售後服務等等這是另外一塊都有優點也都有缺點它只是方式之一所以第一點我是呼應那個這個剛才陳永康委員所提到這個部分是不是多考量一下我們在國家的利益上而不是再強調這跟黨派是無關的第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3117.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3146.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這一個如果我們原來的法台灣其實我們的審計制度我們的預算審計其實算是很優秀的那審計單位也相當獨立所以如果原來的預算或審計相關法例已有規定的就按照那個法令來處理因為這是一個幾十年來長期而穩定的架構我們不用再另外跌船駕屋讓這個法條更neat更精簡更紮實一點第三個流用的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3147.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3163.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
其實流用跟挪用不一樣在合法為前提下A科目勝於流出到B科目這個叫流用而且不得超過20%在同一個科目裡面的動用叫做雲芝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3164.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3183.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
但是呢如果是改變原預算用途比如說把金財門留到資本門那個叫挪用所以挪用流用雲芝是不一樣的概念所以流用其實是在合法的前提下資金的調度而且不得於20%那為什麼我們預算法會同意這樣做因為有些狀況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3184.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3200.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這樣處理是因應緊急需求或者資金調度的活絡我們如果綁死說不行說不行的話等於是把法律原來允許的一些作業上彈性把它剝奪掉了適不適合大家可以討論那我倒是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3202.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3230.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
現在這是一個授權編列特別預算的特別條例法源所以如果我們未來國防部會根據這個法源授權把要用的預算明細送進來那也許在某幾筆這一筆要買海馬仕的我們不准你留用我們可以綁在個別的預算上而不是通則上那個王遠東意思就是你綁在通則上會全部沒有彈性但是我們未來在審查預算說這一筆是要買海馬仕的我不准你 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3232.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3249.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
留用我們可以把綁在個別的預算上可以來討論這樣既可以達到你要的目效果又不會讓我們的法條失去彈性這個是給這個提案委員的建議所以我是建議說這是一個授權的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3250.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3273.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那也就是這幾天有幾位委員提到的一開始想說幾張紙啊怎麼樣子 其實授權法條在戈克奧下寫不出一本啦他就是七條八條九條授權法條之後的重點在預算編列預算編列送進來明細細項那個會整本的我們現在很多的疑慮很多想要談的其實是在預算編列那一塊卻把它轉成 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3275.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3300.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個一開始國防部其實被罵得有點冤枉這個一張紙兩張紙要1.25兆其實不管幾兆啦特別條例它一定就是這樣子所以我們在這個法條的設計上可能就大原則把它框定那很多我們在意的部分在預算細項送進來的時候我們可以來做處理那這個這樣的處理其實是比較妥適給同仁們做建議謝謝王委員 接下來請黃建斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3308.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3313.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
國民黨提出版本第七條為什麼會強調計畫執行的績效管考還有執行進度跟立法院報告因為之前軍購武器交付都有延宕的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3323.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3339.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
像我們海軍號原本預定在2022年的11月要交艦那到現在還在海側那交艦日期也不知道什麼時候要武器另外還有F16戰機AGM-154空對地飛彈MK48魚雷等三艦因為美方的交付延遲嚴重的影響到我們國防的戰備 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3343.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3361.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以國民黨版本才會規定軍官要專案列管掌握進度並且針對這個違法的部分影響軍購的這些人要移送監察院來懲戒然後確保我們軍購武器可以如期的交付那我想這每一筆錢都是花在刀口上我也是希望我能夠透過監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3363.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3374.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
呃的還有這個監督這個績效跟管考才確保這一這些能夠完全的來執行那這邊邀請我們執政黨民眾黨還有所有的委員共和來支持我們的提案的版本謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請林楚瑩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3386.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3404.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
林楚瑩第二次發言我想其實這三個版本要討論的就是接下來如果特別預算編出來之後後續的執行我想本席在這個國防外交委員會之前剛好在財政委員會那這個也是為什麼今天其實是國防跟財政兩個委員會的聯席今天在場包括剛剛其實主席也讓法務部還有審計部特別他們有官員列席跟報告那為什麼我會支持行政院版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3416.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3438.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
版本其實很簡單的我想所有的法規跟法條它在我們國家的制度當中有審計相關的單位它是職權獨立然後有預算的編列跟執行的時候也都有相關的預算法規在進行討論那麼言下之意就是其實行政院版非常清楚它就是跟你講說這個預算的實施就是審計機關來依法執行如果說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3442.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3449.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個裡頭有任何的不法情況出現我相信今天在場的法務部或審計部他們本來就依他們的職權他們會進行調查跟了解那麼當然國民黨跟民眾黨他們所編列的第七條寫了很多的附加條款包括剛剛國民黨的委員也提到了有一些延宕的狀況但是我想其實在國防委員會大家就非常清楚這個是一個賣方市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3468.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3490.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
包括我們以現在來講都還只是發架書然後都還沒有真正的進入後續跟美方跟廠商來進行議價的階段那麼如果這樣你就把期程訂定了我要強調的是在國民黨版當中他直接就想說如果成效低於核定的進度50%要將執行機關的首長跟相關的主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3496.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3516.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
要送監察院來做懲戒那麼像這樣的一個大潛艇的匡列是不是就已經設下了陷阱要讓現在在負責的國軍弟兄好像就已經陷他們於嘴我要強調的是顧立雄顧部長他是政治人民但是其他後面坐在這邊陪我們一起審這個條例的這些我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3520.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3542.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
國防部的現在中將上將等等難道他們就因為這個賣方市場你無法確定的時間低於50%你要幫他們送監察院懲戒嗎而我相信不論是審計單位或是監察單位他們是因為看到裡頭有不法他們才會依法行政然後依法來進行處理或者是來偵辦我要強調的是為什麼是50% |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3548.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3554.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
而這個50%是賣方市場的50%站在我的立場我同意接下來相關的採購或者是合約你在訂定的過程當中而且我要強調的是在我們過往所有的政府的採購標案一定在後面都會附加有所謂的罰則包括延檔包括我們現在在講海昆號他如果沒有趕上騎乘他就是會罰錢會罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3575.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3594.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
但是這個如果擴大延伸到所謂定一個所謂進度然後你要去懲罰相關的首長跟相關的主管機關我認為這個根本就是在恫嚇要求這些相關處理的公務人員或是我們國家捍衛國家的這些軍人們你會害怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3595.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3610.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以我認為這個裡頭完全在第一時間你就限定了我要再強調是軍購我相信現場很多人比我更了解是專家你們都知道這是賣方市場而現在的進度掌握難道說是因為他們催就可以打造出來嗎難道說海昆號 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3613.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3635.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
現在大家一直在講用海昆號那我們都不是講安全第一嗎如果沒有趕上進度那這些所謂的相關的主管要送監察院來做懲戒我覺得這個根本是拿國家安全拿國防安全在開玩笑所以我還是支持行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3635.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3643.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
謝謝林楚英委員那接下來我們依次是徐曉新委員馬文君委員 賴世寶委員 王定宇委員然後陳永康委員第二次發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3644.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3668.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好謝謝主席喔那這個第七條的第一次發言那我想呢這一條看起來是除了行政院的版本比較簡單之外那民眾黨跟國民黨的版本那內容蠻多的那也有比較大的這個重整跟整合的空間所以先講結論那應該是能夠保留協商那我相信在協商之後能夠有聽取大家意見之後有一個更完善的一個安排喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3668.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3686.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那這邊接下來是我個人的一些意見那我同意剛才這個提到就是說有關預算法的這個流用那能夠保持部分的彈性這個也可以讓這個我們主管機關那他能夠在這個預算的使用上面不要符合特別條例的這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3687.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3691.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那在這個向立法院提出這個總結報告或是專案報告的這個部分那我想這個後續那或許民眾黨在這個第三這個他們這個第三款前面就是這邊有關主管機關在什麼什麼屆滿施行屆滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3705.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3721.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
之日次年五月底前那做總結報告送到立法院那國民黨這邊寫的是說那這個呢相關列管的執行然後進度績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告這有點相似那我覺得這個部分那也有一個整合的空間那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3723.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3728.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
然後再來就是有關於這個剛剛講到審計法案相關法規規定這個完全同意那但是我會建議說因為這一次的這個特別條例的預算那是這個匡列的這個這個金額是比較高額的那把審計機關它原本的這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3742.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3768.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
如果重新简要的在这个第七条当中做一个说明的话那对于一般人民在审视法条的时候那也能够更能够理解所以合乎于原本审计法的法规规定的部分我觉得简要的列入是没有问题的也可以让大家比较知道说这个东西呢如果是有公务人员失职违法的话那确实那是会有相关的审计机关的法院依据去做办理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3768.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3784.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那至於後面這個有關執行成效的部分我個人意見是這樣子對於執行的成效因為這個核定進度是主管機關他去做的核定所以我們理論上還是希望他能夠達到一定的水平以上而不是沒有任何規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3785.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3810.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
但是我也同樣的同意針對於就是說行政首長他可能是有政治責任的但是其他的相關主管那我們屬於這個公務人員我覺得也不應該讓他們去背上這樣子在法條上面就有一個責任在所以在這個部分我覺得這裡還是有一個可以協商的空間在的就是說我們希望我簡單講我們希望仍然在你的核定進度上面要有一定的這個進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3813.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3828.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
因為你可能每個會起來報告說要有個進展因為民眾也真的如同剛才前面國民黨委員提到的是很在乎那是否有延宕的問題可是送到監察院懲戒的部分那我在這邊我會強調就是說我覺得一般的公務人員我們的國軍弟兄那是不是可以把他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3834.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3850.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
拿掉而不是說一般相關的主管他也要被送懲戒那因為他如果有違法的話前面審計法已經講有違法失職的部分是要被調查的那但是如果是因為核定進度比較低的話那機關首長負政治責任我同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3850.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3875.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是后续的相关其他的这个公务人员的主管我觉得不应该把这个责任那放在他们的身上那会是一个比较合理的方式所以我也希望说这一条我们可以保留协商在后续协商的时候那可以有一个这综合大家所有的意见之后那比较更能够上路执行然后和呼吁法理情的一个条文谢谢好谢谢徐小新委员接下来我们请马文君委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3884.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3887.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
謝謝主席針對大家討論的這個部分剛剛就民眾黨提出第七條的部分主管機關依預算法第63條辦理流用之前應經立法院同意其實這個他不是我們一般的預算所以他 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3901.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3909.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
要辦理流用之前經立法院同意好像也沒有什麼至愛難行的地方因為你要流用我們現在會通過這一筆預算就是因為國防部也說這是經過非常縝密的一個規劃那包括像對美的軍購他們也都是同意的然後特別條例又是因應緊急的狀況所以他如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3925.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3934.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
流用他必須要做一個說明甚至經過立法院同意這個好像也沒有什麼太大的問題因為像過去愛國者飛彈其實他曾經在採購的過程當中他有剩餘的錢結果甚至連國防部長官都不知道的情況之下空軍就直接把那個錢花掉了這是一個非常嚴重的問題所以如果說你編這麼大筆的預算然後在要流用之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3954.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3960.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我覺得還是應該要審慎的一個交代所以經立法院同意我們覺得這個放在這裡應該也是合理的然後也不會影響到其他因為它也不是一般的預算我們過去國防預算其實會同意留用是因為它就是一個大水庫它有很多它品項非常的多而且國防預算跟一般其他部會的預算編列的方式不一樣它寫得非常清楚細項條目也比較清楚所以同意留用的原因是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3983.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3987.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那你在這個部分如果是特別條例它是很明確的這個部分本席覺得應該可以支持民眾黨的這個提案的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3995.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3998.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們也提到說特別條例其實是因應緊急的部分當時說要審這個條例的時候我們認為太過簡單而且並不清楚它的內容不是條例歸條例預算歸預算因為條例裡面很重要的精神它有金額這個金額是跟子孫借錢來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4016.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4019.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
而且這是創有史以來的新高所以當如果你不夠清楚的時候其實就沒有辦法去審條例我覺得這個也應該要把它理清楚這個不是這樣的旨在我們認為沒有什麼太大的問題那特別條例它如果是因應緊急的狀況就我們國民黨提出來的這個版本裡面當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4038.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4041.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
對於相關主管我們在很多的考量上面他基本上懲戒法跟監察法是具備這樣的條件可是我們看過去的現在執行的狀況有很多不管是對外的採購對內的採購都發生許多非常嚴重的嚴當的問題或者甚至裡面產生弊端這個部分其實我們希望可以主動可以去做這樣的一個因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4067.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4088.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以在這個部分應該是還可以做一些討論不過主管機關不能有權無責你既要花這麼多的錢然後你要主導很多很多的政策方向的時候低於50%是非常離譜的因為既然是緊急它就是我們迫切需要的如果我們連50%都達不到我們還口口聲聲說這只是賣方市場因為賣方市場不是藉口也不是理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4095.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4101.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
當他可以去追蹤或者可以去要求的時候我們強度不夠我們的那種強度如果可以跟要預算一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4106.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4111.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我覺得談判不會這麼差啦因為我們看到2023年的時候美國國會議員其實他們就有提案而且清楚的表達說對於台灣的軍售項目其實有延宕的部分要趕快攻擊那時候我們國內有很多大家也都積極的去附和可是到現在那時候說的就是魚叉飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4131.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4148.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
可是到現在我們2026年了我們到現在還沒有拿到2023年他們已經提案了2026年我們還沒有拿到而且我們的牌序還在沙烏地阿拉伯的後面所以就這個部分我們還是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4148.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4164.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
必須要有一些進度的一個控管如果我們都不能掌控那我們為什麼要編特別預算那你如果像這樣子什麼都可以然後什麼都是賣方市場那你就放在公務預算啊因為反正看起來也不緊急因為你通通交不出來的時候我們一點辦法都沒有沒有辦法對國人交代這個也不能這樣花錢這是我們要提出來的一個考量 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4173.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4175.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 謝謝馬文聰委員 現在我們請賴世保好 謝謝主席 各位先進這一條大家都知道 特別預算就是有緊急的嘛 才變特別預算 否則變年度預算就好了嘛那你又拼命要錢 錢給了東西不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4192.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4199.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
然後你再怎麼用的話 像F16到現在一台也沒有已經幾年了 一年兩年這樣一直拖再怎麼用的話 即便沒有6000億也有3000億 加一加也有3000億3000億給了錢 我等一下是不是 這個部長要不要來補充就是我們那個2400億是不是全部交了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4217.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4222.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
沒有就講一下嘛 你交了多少嘛審計部也去函要求糾正說沒有交貨 停止再交錢這點我不知道國安部有沒有做到我所知道審計部以及我去文要求國安部東西如果還沒有來 不可以繼續給錢這點要做到嘛 這是第一點我強調 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4241.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4247.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
沒有錯 不要濫殺無辜我們也知道是賣方市場買美國武器是何等難的事情可是問題既然要買了他當然要賣了要交貨啊 不能這樣拖啊那你說這個雙手一攤就沒辦法我覺得對於相關的長官一定的層級有一定的壓力我覺得是需要的否則的話就一直給錢一直給錢人家感覺就一直送錢東西有沒有來沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4271.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4278.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這樣更好 對國人不能交代吧 這第一點第二點 我要來強調一下昨天我聽到有個亮點其實我們這裡 老實講 大家講話不需要針鋒相對大家彼此闡述有交集的 不會沒有交集昨天我聽到王定宇講了一句話我就 啊 都一數了他說能不能3800億加N改成1.25兆減N那我就講 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4302.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4303.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這是你講 你昨天講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4308.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4327.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
啊我現在就正式給你 echo其實是一樣的你一點澳大減掉國內的部分三千億就剩九千億啊那我們的三千八百億加如果現在美國很快的正式announce要賣我們一百五十億美金的武器啊就八千多億啦啊你趕快歷史吧啊不是不是我們已經有了三千八加N啊加N啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4338.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4339.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
你們如果把國內的委制部門全部剪掉那就剩9千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4353.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4360.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
但是我那個N出來是要美國同意喔要美國正式同意說我要賣150億美金那我們就交通局喔我個人就贊成交通局要判3800加N這個N是什麼意思我是就3800的不對嘛我們是3800你要不要跟賴委員對話一下先稍等一下稍等一下稍等一下所以我的意思是說有對話基礎大家可以有共識這樣一來就接近了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4376.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4380.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那你說剩三千你跟我一天一毛錢都不能少其實要放公共預算嘛我們國內要捍衛台灣的安全沒有人反對啦不需要戴帽子啦那這個錢放哪裡放哪裡的問題而已這是我的第二點第三點我要強調的是財政部還是有必要跟外面說清楚你一直講財源是稅基剩餘plus |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4405.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4407.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
財政部常常在嘛 能夠持長要說一下 PLUS 舉債啊隨機剩你剩多少 幾乎沒有啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4415.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4425.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
你要不要講一下跟委員報告那目前的稅金剩餘的確是已經都已經移用完畢但是我要強調一點就是說我們的經濟狀況很好所以我們稅收我們未來稅收是不會這個今年像今年的今年的競選率已經調高7.71嘛at this moment在這個時刻在這個時刻我們的稅金剩餘是零啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4442.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4446.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以每一個台灣的人 不管大小 大人小孩 通通要取債五萬塊按照你一天二五兆的話就是五萬塊了 就是這樣了 這個時候要先清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4460.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4486.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我先補充一下我們目前的負債比例FLAB115年度是26.4%那等於是說還有14.2%的舉債的空間等於有3.7兆也就是說目前的財政狀況其實還是非常的穩健這是第一點第二個我們特別預算不會是依次編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4487.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4515.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
不是一年編組我們是會分年編的所以基本上我目前的呃產生狀況我是覺得是可以負擔的以上好呃謝謝那王定永要不要回應一下好呃得到前輩賴世保委員他跟徐曉鑫委員肯定本席的提案我受寵若驚在這個moment非常的感動那我先講幾個部分第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4517.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4524.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我贊成延宕要有懲處機制但是延宕的原因要清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4526.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4550.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我很尊敬陳永康委員如果今天因為陳永康委員延宕然後來處罰我這個送到監察院也不會成立嘛所以原因要清楚所以呢如果延宕超過50%前提是可歸因為台灣行政部門的責任因為台灣不只有行政部門還有立法部門可歸因為台灣行政部門的責任送 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4552.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4570.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那如果國民黨要把可歸因歸因為美國方面的因素也要追究責任歡迎你們提案這一點就擺明了處理台灣的行政部門然後連美國提都不敢提一起提那要去追究嗎符不符合現在的現實 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4571.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4600.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所謂的買方市場不是說是賣方比較大不是就是我們台灣在籌措軍事裝備那個困難度我相信國防部各將領軍官都經歷過甚至於跑歐洲也會遇到來自於特定國家的壓力都會遇到所以今天我們如果要把條文裡面寫到嚴當究責那就把嚴當究責的因寫清楚究責的果才會目標明確否則這個空炮彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4601.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4622.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
今天因為 比方說MAC-48因為美國海軍部的因素延宕交貨陳委員應該知道嘛我去究責台灣的海軍幹嘛你送的也不會成立啊就好像我們先進高校機是引擎因為COVID-19延後我去懲處國防部或漢祥 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4625.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4653.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那個懲處其實是沒有因果關係沒有邏輯的所以這一個懲處要寫我建議把它寫完整一點你就寫可歸因為台灣行政部門之責任延宕超過50%移送那成功的機率還比較大其他的我建議也不用寫因為寫沒有用我不認為現場有國民黨委員要追究美方責任整場聽下來應該不會啦要的話寫我個人也沒什麼特別意見這第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4654.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4676.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我聽不太懂為什麼公務預算跟特別預算就好像談到機密你這個機密不能的話就移到公務預算談到同計劃內子計劃A跟子計劃B現金的流用這個要流用你就移到公務預算公務預算跟特別預算適用的法律是一樣的它是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4678.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4706.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以我就說我贊成在某些特定的項目如果要綁定可以談但是預算法容許允許留用那個談刑是給行政部門應急的時候這個我們不要把它寫死在法條裡面第三那個賴思寶委員可能沒有來參加我們專報啦我們有關對沒採購延宕交貨的有辦了一個專報裡面講得很清楚第一個沒有那個付錢付六千億付兩千多億在那邊等他 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4707.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4728.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
台灣軍事採購有點像蓋房子蓋到地基付地基的錢蓋到哪個節點付哪個節點的錢不會付錢在那邊等貨你延宕我錢就不出去是在我們的專款的專戶裡面那目前所有對美採購的幾乎都如期如質有的超前三項AGM-154CMk48重型魚雷還有F16V這三項的延宕那這三項的延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4733.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4756.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們作為買方也不斷的追究美方的責任也要求趕上以F16V他們現在是兩班制在南卡那邊要趕工一天二十小時 趕工架上 組裝線上我們買六十六架 組裝線上大概有五十五架是要供應給我們的那最近一架在廠區飛測已經完成接下來就是軍種因為那是軍購美國軍種驗測完就會交給我們所以延盪 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4761.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4772.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
有要追究錢不能當冤大頭我贊成但是事實上在因為俄烏戰爭全球供應鏈問題因為COVID-19有些延宕不是只對我們連對美軍他都延宕所以這個部分專報要討論我補充跟賴委員做一個報告最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4780.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4803.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
謝謝賴委員肯定我昨天提了1.25兆減N的概念我把它講完整1.25兆減N比較符合你們國民黨提的3800億加N因為你們的提案你自己去看你們的提案在我印象是第五條還是第六條你們是沒有加N的你就只有3800億你們寫在第八條裡面說如果美國發價書再來另提特別預算第六條嘛就第六條跟第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4805.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4814.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就另提特別條例所以簡單來講你們版本也就為什麼以前我們的同事徐育仁委員是國民黨籍的在美國說這個不行因為你只有3800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4816.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4845.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
美國再準變成另外還在弄一個特別條例那這個特別條例的包括跨年度的部分它就失去它的意義所以用1.25兆減N也就是你可以設定對外採購我建議不要寫對美因為我們機密專報有說過它不是只有美方對外採購你可以設定一個條件那個條件沒有滿足我不准你編我不跟你用這叫減N那是不是就符合國民黨的要求但是這還要加上用途你不能只綁定對外採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4846.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4870.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們的台美合作的供應鏈在台的飛鴻供應鏈以及對台灣內部採購的彈藥載台以及台灣盾所相關的這個用途不要設限只有採購因為這不是一個這個特別預算不是只有對外採購而已所以1.25兆減N把這個對外採購的條件可以綁嚴格一點沒有達到那個標準我不要讓你贏我也不要讓你BAN |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4870.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4900.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那這樣用1.25兆減恩又即可滿足國民黨是說美國準的我都賣啊你們現在講美國準的我都賣嘛3800億可是下禮拜又準我要另外提一個特別條例我們還要在這裡六七條條文部三綱這個不好啦你比我還有經驗因為賴委員是資深財政委員所以我剛才講的1.25兆減恩符合國民黨的想法跟精神也達到我們國會監督的目的然後我們在用途不管AI 先進科技用途不要把他綁死 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4900.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4925.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那可監督然後呢在每一筆預算還是要送進委員會審查可刪減動這樣子的話我們是不是可以在特別條例上往前邁進一步這是我昨天完整報告的那我們希望在這個點上今天也許不能有共識到黨團協商的時候能夠往這邊邁進這個是國家需要不是政黨需要啦我們大家一起達成共識可能是蠻重要一件事情謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4925.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4948.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好謝謝那呃我們等一下依次是陳永康委員羅美玲委員羅美玲不用啊好那陳永康委員馬文君委員牛許廷委員之後再賴世保委員好謝謝主席呃各位在場的同仁我這邊呢用一個客觀的角度來提出幾個建議呃並不針對哪一個政黨包括我們自己的在野黨第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4949.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4971.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
美国的军售案FMS根据美国战争部底下安和局公布的法规强调军售案是基于美国的国家安全战略以及它的国防战略对有盟国家基于区域安全的考量提供武器服务的供售 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4972.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4997.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
也就是说军售案我们是使用端跟美国签约是对政府我们使用的是固定价款所以美金汇率涨跌我们要内部调整吸收但是美国政府跟美国的厂商签的约它是成本计价保证美国的国防厂商有多少百分比的利率所以这中间已经有了一个差别 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4998.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5025.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
第二个军售采购国的国家透过美国的专案管理办公室做专案管理但是采购国家不得与美国的厂商有直接的接触这是军售专案管理因此在罚则上面如果是因为美军内部的因素我们要透过我们的驻美采购团我们有在地的律师也有国内派的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5026.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5050.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
法治官在驻美团跟美方做直接的沟通如果把这个责任用来追究我们国内军总的负责长官这个比较不妥是不客观我这边特别要把这个抬出来是给三个党的同仁大家都关心国防安全可是军售的这个条例请各位看美国战争部 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5051.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5065.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
安和局的官方网站他有所有列举军售的条例是这细则所以这个请大家做参考谢谢陈永康委员接下来我们请马文君委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5066.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5073.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
謝謝主席針對剛剛很多委員大家在探討的這個部分因為如果說像很多表達的方向我們的不確定因素這麼高那對美方其實我們是有專案辦公室應該怎麼樣去追究相關的責任這個我們後續可能今天也沒有一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5091.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5110.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
你要追究到一些比較基層的或相關的一些我們的一些相關的主管其實這個有些事實上他可能有困難可是他必須要有人負責所以在這個部分執行的機關首長我覺得其實是應該可以去討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5113.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5120.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
可是我們在這個金額上面大家都一直講到說這是賣方市場那既然是賣方市場這是國際現實的情況之下我們更應該支持的就是3800億加N因為這是至少確保目前因為美國即使出售它都還可以做調整或改變或者甚至還是不給 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5136.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5142.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那如果是這樣子的話我們又沒有能力去跟他要求然後對他也沒有任何的罰則我們應該要考量因為之前說他們沒有辦法交來魚雷是我們的潛艦很重要的一個武器如果沒有魚雷就跟沒有拳頭一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5155.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5173.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以像这样子的还有我们的战机也是可是我们没有办法的时候考量的理由是说因为COVID-19因为俄乌战争那现在中东又陷入美以异战争现在也不知道它什么时候会结束而且我们这一次采购很多都是非但丹药 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5174.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5179.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
飛彈彈藥從這一次美伊伊戰爭我們已經看得出來它已經缺了美國兩天就打掉一年的產量所以像這樣子的客觀因素它已經會影響它可能會影響我們這些飛彈還有我們彈藥的採購那我們還一次放很多你就不可能把錢用在別的地方你買戰機2500億它還沒有交來你那2500億不可能用在別的地方你今天一兆2500億編下去如果它的彈藥沒來它的飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5204.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5211.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
沒有辦法提供給我們的時候你也拿它沒辦法然後一兆兩千五百億就框在那裡你也不能用剛剛說我們的財政狀況還不錯還可以負擔可是八年的時間大家要怎麼想過去也說我們的電力沒有問題啊還不是馬上轉彎就一個遠方的一個戰爭也不是立即發生在我們這裡的所以我們希望我們的考量是一個長遠性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5232.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5252.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
如果有該修正的我們認為你說不當的究責或者怎麼樣這個都可以討論可是當現實的因素存在在這裡的時候我們又說我們要編很多然後要很快的編可是當你拿不到的時候又一點辦法都沒有那你把錢全部都框在那裡我們其他的需求萬一發生什麼樣緊急狀況的時候你的錢要哪裡來所以這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5256.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5272.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
外部的因素都影響到我們所有武器裝備的取得那現在整個國際局勢是更動盪不安現在對我們也會造成直接的影響這個部分大家也應該要一併的去考量好 謝謝好 謝謝馬文聚委員接下來請林徐廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5273.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5288.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
謝謝主席這我想今天討論或昨天討論的核心概念都一樣第一個就是到底我這分歧的部分我就不講了但關鍵是至少我覺得朝野比較容易有共識的地方是大家理性的去討論出一整套完整的監督機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5289.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5317.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這我剛剛聽主席總署講啦講說包含流用等等的規定其實你背後講的邏輯是一般總預算就有流用的規定理論上特別條例跟特別預算會比總預算更寬鬆嘛所以你才會覺得這樣寫很奇怪嘛可是問題是這樣嘛就今天大家對於這麼高額的支出然後要舉債等等開始越來越在意的時候這個難道在野黨不應該有點角色嗎所以我才講嘛就是說這整個條例也好或者未來預算的過程中他必須要非常清楚明白有一個強而有力的監督過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5319.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5337.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
這也是為什麼在野黨去提了不管是有關於流用的一些限制中間的一些專案報告甚至是一些比較具體的考核懲處機制有一些也許啊這個措辭很嚴厲顯得很苛刻這我覺得都可以保留討論的空間但它不能沒有這個我覺得非常關鍵的是它不能沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5337.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5358.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
因為最近這一段時間很常出現特別預算然後如果因為特別預算大家都要行方便那其實就是變相的削弱了監督的機制那麼國防知識抵達剛剛也講這個國防的採購沒有辦法如期到貨很多時候是不可歸因於本國政府的行政責任這本席完全理解但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5360.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5377.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這一段時間大家對於交貨集成的高度關注我認為反而是有助於這個不管是國防部對外去爭取去談判你有一個我國內很擔心啊有一個這樣的籌碼有一個這樣的利基去談嘛他才能夠真正去促進交貨換言之我們對於這些東西的把關越嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5378.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5395.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
你在外面上去達成目標的機會就越高所以我來講這一次的邏輯很多人講特別條例原則上我們應該先寬你後面可以省預算可以延可是我用我自己初見的經驗不管是我以前在議會或這幾年在立法院我們從在民意機關的角度通常都是先延後寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5396.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5413.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
先嚴格後面再協調然後找出一條出路所以通常都是先嚴後寬我沒有聽過幾個案例是先很寬後面可以很嚴格的啦一開始很寬的話後面只會更寬嘛這就是為什麼在野黨之間比如說3800加N我一定是從嚴然後往上有調整的空間而不是我一開始就從寬因為從寬後面只會更寬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5415.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5436.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以我覺得根本的立場再講也沒有太多意思大家可以在協商的時候再討論沒有問題但我覺得其實從昨天下午到今天這些配套措施我還是一樣立場就行政機關我們也統整一下意見怎麼去彙整怎麼去中整讓他可以定期透明的追蹤資訊可以公開的去做揭露我講的是進度等等的部分或者出現問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5437.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5450.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
可以完整的跟社會大眾交代 也讓社會大眾有更清楚的了解這樣子處理完 大家後面再走相關流程才會比較順利 以上謝謝謝謝劉喜廷委員 我們最後一位發言的是賴世寶委員好 謝謝喔我還是希望部長 顧部長能夠公開回答一下到底我的F16V已經交了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5462.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5467.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
已經交了多少錢到現在一台都沒來目前是一台都沒來 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5468.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5492.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
報告委員,張威視市長這邊跟您做個回應您的確提到省紀部的那一段其實我們在省紀部給我們函之前就已經跟美方啟動了只付的動作那已經付多少錢?所以在去年3月中我們就只付付到1491就停了就等於付1400多嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5494.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5500.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
就不再負冷是不是那今年大概今年講說可以交第一價全部可以交幾價了今年期待期望值好了十價有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5506.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5513.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們的希望是全交啊這不可能啊 顧部長說不可能啦已經跟我講難度很高啦報告委員 我們的評估是風險很高是喔我們並沒有講過說完全不可能你打臉顧部長耶沒有 部長沒有講說完全不可能顧部長說難度很高喔對 難度很高他不是風險 他講難度 背起來了對他講難度很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5534.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5538.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
不可能啦 我說我10台就好好 第一點第二點我要強調齁這個 很多民進黨的先進都喜歡講說啊 你不在我們家啦 你都不知道中共啊抱歉 我常常來這裡質詢啦這個 家警都會知道啦 因為立委做這麼久還不知道你假如說我們不要一天不要美國那就對美其友好國家就解決啦就解決啦對美其友好國家才夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5563.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5579.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
對外採購我要強調對美國嘛因為這個今天坐下來審大家都知道美國佔一個很重要的因素嘛美國佔很重要的因素嘛 大家都知道我要強調對美其友好國家對不對 其友好國家這樣就可以了 沒有說沒有那麼嚴重啦這是第二個 我強調的第三點 各位整個畫面是什麼整個畫面就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5589.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5593.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我問布置平喔 錢趕快來 錢趕快來 錢趕快來 東西咧 啊沒來沒到啊部長我也諮詢過 部長說這個都是美方的事情啊我們有沒有辦法追究 沒辦法追究 有沒有辦法追究 沒有啊 賣方市場 大家也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5608.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5614.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那種感覺那種畫面大家不舒服啦老百姓不舒服啦這樣做立委做假的喔拼命給錢啊那東西不來一點皮條都沒有我們目前的中共是給了錢東西不來我們一點皮條都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5625.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5630.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
目前來講就是這樣子其他都做文章其他都做文章而已都這樣歐陵水到哦 報告這個那個這個那個但是呢 簡單講就是到目前為止對美國的武器採購錢給得很快東西交得很慢甚至於不交延到很久我們一點批調都沒有啊 立法院就可以批調了難道不能夠通過立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5652.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5661.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
部長啊 各位長官啊你們要珍惜立法院在野黨的力量啊 給你們力量啊我們這裡反對力量越大 你們講話聲音就越大可以跟美國講說 欸 我們這邊人在野黨你反對啊所以你比較快的 你不比較快的事情不好要這樣子啊 這個態度才拿出來啊這是第二個 我要強調第三點喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5677.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5682.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我個人是贊成第六條和第八條合併起來那就有3800加N的味道在哪裡而且不要變成兩個法案變成一個法案裡面那跟你原來的就很接近了我來這裡是希望能夠解決問題啦大家找共識啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5705.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5712.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你看這樣去嚇啦要不然的話你說他今天美國發價稅來100億美金我們就立個特別條例再50億美金又立一條這也沒通這也是很煩啦老實說我們是還是尊重那個盲軍委內外委會 外委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5729.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5737.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我今天是聯席 我今天不是主審 我是聯席好 財政委員會 我財政委員會我今天有一票 我要表決一票喔各位 我表決一票喔 來要表決我一票喔 我一票喔所以 所以 我還是主張 我的主張我們黨團 我們黨中央都對外講3800加N我就放心這個3800加NN只要出現 就應該加上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5757.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5760.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以條文怎麼寫 不用1.25兆啦1.25兆你已經減N了 因為我看到你講N了 那個N就減3000啦賴委員 那其實還可以合相啦 但我們的邏輯一樣啦它整個的上限是1.25兆 你們要的條件是 我看到發家書對外採購我才要準嘛 所以條文要這樣寫才完整你們的寫法兩條合併 如果還是寫3800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5785.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5809.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
然後呢 後續有準的另提特別條例 那就沒辦法了你知道意思嗎 那就變成另外用一個每一筆預算一筆法律 這個很奇怪的這每一個人的想法 每一個委員的想法 我的主張是後面那個不要的就放在這裡 但是呢也不能框得太大啦 你就把1.25減掉三千多的國內部分 就是九千 八九千差不多減三千多 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5819.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5821.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為我們一直在談發架書這個事情我們現在已經遇到發架書危機了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5839.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5861.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們現在回到執行面的問題因為你講發架書哪到才做對我們來講真的很難做因為我昨天晚上已經聯絡了國防安和局局長他的態度是很難給我們這樣子的彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5863.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5893.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那當我們還在跟他爭取我們還有四天的時間去爭取那我們知道軍售程序裡面知會國會完的案子幾乎就是已經定案了如果說那個知會國會完那以這個做界線或許還有一點點彈性但如果每件事情都是發架出來像海馬斯這個案子如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5894.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5908.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
他不同意我們首席館支付的時間延後那我們預約的時間就會錯過這一批那就會到年底去這是我們目前執行上面遇到的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5910.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5939.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我想就這個部分我再補充一下因為我們過去我想在外交官委員會有長期擔任的如果就這個預算案要細審的話應該其實是在這個我們從這個計畫提出來然後經過行政院核定送案子進來然後都是在如果這個時候已經進行智慧國會了就列入公開還沒有智慧國會之前就列入機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5939.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5966.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那一旦他進行的智慧國會就轉為公開所以大家可以看得出來在這一段這個我們提出預算的這個時候呢反而是你們可以很仔細的來進行審議那你們現在是變成說我拿到發價書我就會同意那等於是你完全前面的那一個那個預算案你完全沒有在審議啊就是根本你來不及審議你了解我的意思嗎就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5966.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5974.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你們現在會講說發價書來我就那發價書一來以後接下來馬上就要涉及到簽署馬上就涉及到首期款要支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5975.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6002.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
然後拉就會很趕一直在趕對不對趕授權簽署趕這個預算案趕快通過等等就會這樣那這個緩和喪失了我們計劃預算的一個概念我們計劃預算的概念是說我們先提一個前面不是那個國民黨的第三條嗎講說我們要依這個要試計劃性質救急防衛目標戰力需求裝備規格等等等等講了一大堆然後就要我們要提出相關的計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6003.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6027.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那這個預算案的內容就是我們都是根據這些然後要提出到大院來進行審議現在大院反而是說前面我都你都不用送了那你現在只要發加數一來我馬上給你通過那我覺得如果大院的立場是說覺得這種審查預算的案本身不需要那麼的嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6029.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6050.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
而只要看到發價數,只要看到發價數,那就可以通過我覺得反而是,反而是其實是對我來講反而是要,如果我是立法院,我會覺得反而是弱化了立法院監督的那一塊啊對,反而不是在強化監督這一塊,這一點那你要不要點,等一下,那你要不要點拿到國會通過還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6053.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6080.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
可以是不是拉到國會通過你講清楚嘛你希望怎麼樣國會通過國會通過就我們國防部的立場我們過去以來我想大家在外交網絡都很清楚我們用這個計畫預算的精神來講我剛剛已經講過我們的政堂就是應該要先提計畫行政院核定我們送預算案進來那個時候還不一定會到達智慧國會的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6081.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6090.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
對不對 所以我只是在解釋說明啦最後大院要怎麼樣做決議這件事我沒有這麼明顯你總是要起個頭啊你有個壓制在那裡殺你啊部長 我插個話啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6092.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6122.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
賴委員這樣對話很好我希望是不同黨團來思考這個問題第一個現實面你用發價書來才開始處理預算這個部分還馬是現在就剩四天要付頭期款要不然不能簽約不能簽約年底有沒有還是就沒有了因為大家在唱嘛那這影響我們房務嘛我可以接受賴委員這個態度說不然你說什麼時間是智慧國會那邊開始起算你作業來不來得及那行政部門當然也不能全部都這麼方便啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6122.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6142.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
要有一個監督我贊成但監督要合理不能因為監督導致我們重要軍事裝備籌貨的困難所以剛才顧部長所講的我們是計劃性採購我們從威脅分析完作戰需求作虛分析完然後再來細分細分之後的作業再來是編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6143.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6162.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
像我們AGM那個不能講某一個飛彈我們也編在那邊但是美方一直沒有同意那預算就會往後展演就我計畫上我需要我要買但是賣方呢今年不買或者以前我們要買F16CD型20年美國就一直沒有還付你 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6163.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6179.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那我們不會放棄我們的需求所以最好的方式是計劃提出到細分細分會議作業做完了 編列預算他得到預算之後去努力得到這個部分那什麼時候可以花錢不好意思你要得到智慧國會發酵書整個作業才可以開始不然你錢放在這裡也不行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6183.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6200.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那如果我們要找到一個折衷版本我真的建議發架書不是定價書發架書來要簽約那真的不會有那個籌款簽不下去那個勿是會誤的很大那往前挪到什麼部分是計畫作業就開始還是要到智慧國會我們可以討論我認為可以討論但綁在發架書那一塊會讓我們自己無法作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6205.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6210.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
計劃那個叫做五輪隧道啦 計劃隨便畫一畫就好了不是這樣啦 計劃親在委員會都出來那個不通啦 這個我們是對美採購武器的啊一定是美方有動作我們才做 過去都這樣子啊這一次我們很多意見是因為 幾乎都是啦過去都是F16V2400E就這個例子啊美國同意了 我們才編特別預算的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6236.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6237.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
馬文君委員謝謝針對剛剛講的比如說我們現在因為我們現在還要考量的就是我們編了那麼高額的預算剛剛一直在講發價數我們過去我們前一陣子我們大概也舉一個例子我們的標槍飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6263.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6266.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們原來採購的項目大概一百多億可是後來變成六百多億其實它是用擴大增購的部分其實它就是加上去了對 次增飛彈不好意思次增飛彈我們就是用這樣子的一個方式所以不是所有的都要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6281.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6292.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
特別預算因為我們過去已經買了很多海馬仕現在也正在採購當中也正在交貨當中它並沒有結束所以當你是增購或者其他的模式我們需要增量的時候其實它有很多的手段方式所以不是絕對的一定是在這一次而且這四天其實我們覺得是不可思議因為過去剛剛你們不是講到留用了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6308.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6314.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你有很多的預算的那個你們為什麼那時候那你現在居然就用不上了所以這個部分如果拿這個第一期款來講我是覺得這個比較說不通因為如果連這樣美方其實對我們的一個交貨的期程延宕這麼多的項目那這一個部分我們卻沒有辦法去談因為美方很清楚因為他們很多人在這裡他們都有在關注我們這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6338.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6343.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
案子要怎麼通過所以他不會不知道現在目前進行的狀況就這個部分國防部有充分的條件可以去談因為美方如果真的要增強我們台海的一個防衛能力我們在這個進行的過程當中不是決心的問題我們過去每次都要預算都說要展現決心給大家看可是我們看到的是我們的武器還沒有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6364.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6369.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
當打真的打的時候我們就是沒有東西那不是錢的問題所以就這個部分我們還是如果連這個部分付款都沒有能力我們很難相信說你後續你可以怎麼樣去控管其他的武器裝備的一個來源這個部分可能我們奉勸國防部不要把這個理由拿出來檯面上講謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員官部要補充說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6402.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6417.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
各位,因為這是新增案,我們今天不是舊的案子,所以我們這個錢的部分也不可能由我們國防部其他的錢直接移過來用應該這樣講,這是一個還沒有經立法院審議通過的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6426.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6449.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以他不會有預算所以我也不可能以其他的錢去支給一個就沒有經過同意授權的情況下我也不可能去拿錢去給一個還沒有核定的案子這是我們執行上面大概有我們的困難的地方那另外我在這邊要補充另外一件事情是延宕的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6452.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6481.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
延宕的問題很大的一部分他並不是產製的問題是預約的問題因為美方他不會我們立刻跟他簽了發價書之後他就立刻去預約這是我們面對的現實狀況那所謂核定進度的核定計畫的部分是我們原本的預期那後面是一定會隨著預約完成之後再做第一次修訂否則他會跟原本核定的那個進度完全背離 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6482.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6501.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
列銷這個案子它原定的期程只有兩年但是它到了第一年快底的時候才完成預約所以如果說以50%的進度來看它從起跑就已經落後了預約會影響到我們全部AGM-1547四針飛彈我們剛剛提到的魚雷 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6504.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6526.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他的問題都出在預約是真非但預約的時間延後了五年我們強制美方解散他的專案團隊六次我們並不是沒有做只是說他沒有足夠的量去預約我們也不可能強迫他美國政府是不可能強迫廠商去一定吃下某一個單子當廠商不願意承接的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6528.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6551.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
美國政府也沒有辦法去逼那個廠商去承接希望各位能夠了解說其實軍售案的處理的過程當中它有很多技術細節是必須要顧慮的它沒有辦法像我們在這個地方看到直接去簽的發價書它就走了 並不是這個希望各位能夠了解我們在軍售上面的確是有一些寄存的系統性之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6558.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6583.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我再回到第六條我想這邊有提到的一些監督的機制我們是都可以來接受包括就是說專案列管考核這是國民黨條的第一項然後將執行建築局績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告因為我們本來是每年本來就是每年要向立法院提出報告如果說大家覺得每年還不夠那要每會期我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6584.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6606.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
因為本來就是每年要來做盤環包這沒有在迴避監督的問題嘛那再來就是說這個條例施行屆滿之時期的次年的五月底前主管機關就叫起實施的審教做成總結包包送兵送令我想我們也可以接受所以我們沒有要任何所以我們為什麼說審計部依法辦理審計那在審計的這個過程當中不但是審計機關一直會來盯著我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6612.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6631.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那如果要接受大院的這個監督我們都可以來隨時做這個報告但是也有一些要請各位能夠就是一定要能夠體諒就是說確實我們有一些承辦的人員跟相關的這些不管是主管或什麼那我不希望他們因為這樣子而承受 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6633.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6655.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這樣子的一個莫名的壓力這也是希望大家能夠能夠能夠能夠理解並接受那另外公和的部分我也稍微講一下因為公和就如同剛剛陳永康委員因為在經過的部分他變成是外加所以他通常會增加到百分之二十以上也就是完美要多付金額但他這些關鍵的技術要輸出要經過美方的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6655.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6677.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
而過去的經驗都告訴我們美方沒有將這些關鍵技術同意移轉出來所以公和的點數會相關用於並非該跟該案件絕對相關的國防關鍵技術的移轉所以在這一點上面要不要採納公和這一件事情從我在國安會任職以來到現在其實都持續的在檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6678.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6705.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我覺得在這一點上面也要讓大家能夠理解你是多付錢但不一定拿得到跟那個建案相關的國防的關鍵技術這個是現在公和的問題這一點還請大家能夠理解好 謝謝部長的說明那那有辦法把部長的建議的南韓修正還是就大家還是沒有共識嗎沒有共識好 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6711.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6732.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
都沒有共識嗎那這一次各位同仁我們可不可以不吃多點薑有一條有共識第二條那個沒有共識我也無所謂那主管機關那有啥有一條有共識我覺得我們談的氛圍都還不錯是不是這一條可以有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6734.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6748.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
行政院版加上一些剛才部長表達可以監督的機制部分我們把它放進去然後我們讓這一條有共識至少黨團協商的時候很多重要事情要討論這一條不要再討論了一條有共識我們國防外交委員會對社會大眾來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6749.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6776.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
坦白講我們是 不管黨派 我們是同樣一個委員會的同仁弄那麼多天連一條共識都沒有 不好啦是不是這條能夠有共識 馬委員或者是王委員這邊就是行政院版加上剛才部長說可以接受這件事有沒有可能來修正一下 然後那有提出這一條有共識就不用再寫上了啦 王委員跟馬委員兩位黨團的好不好 我們休息五分鐘 那來討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6782.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6785.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
今天是保留啦 6到8合併 但是你們先慢慢寫商文字啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7094.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7120.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好我們繼續開會那剛才各位委員有跟這個國防部交換意見那我們初步的共識是沒有共識所以我們就是還是先保留好那本條我們就保留接續審查國民黨黨團提案第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文請看第29頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7123.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7124.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
先請 天安黨團 國民黨黨團說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7134.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7153.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這個這個就是明確宣示嘛就是說如果有第二波的發架數嘛因為其實大家的爭點就是在這個地方嘛如果說這發架數早一點來或者是有明確的期程那當然空間就大了可是一時半刻這個要大家拿出這個明確的期程顯然也為難嘛所以在這邊我們的寫法就是如果有需要就馬上再提第二期嘛所以我講的是先嚴後寬嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7155.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7171.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就是第二次或者是第二次特別條例我覺得這是立法技術上的一些問題啦但是這個就是明確的宣示嘛不會讓人家覺得說我只有三千八人我不會有任何後續動作嘛這等於是我們政黨明確立場的表態也就是說如果有拿到發架書我們會立刻啟動而且要從速來做審查以上做一個表達 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7172.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7187.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
好 謝謝 王定委好 牛委員我覺得我們可以有共識其實你們的想法是說對外採購的部分因為剛才我們有討論到發價書智慧國會發價書這流程達成我才要再給你這一筆那我才會建議說是不是寫1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7191.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7210.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那個是授權但是你有關對外採購的部分要帶什麼條件滿足後才可以編列進來就符合你們要求的否則按照你的你仔細看你的第八條你的第八條是還要再提特別條例還要完成特別條例後再根據特別條例授權再編預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7212.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7228.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
你這沒有加N你這就是3800億打死你還需要再提一個新的特別條例所以如果國民黨團堅持第八條那你對外就不要再講加N了你們就是3800億結束加N是在加一個新的特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7230.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7244.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
特別條例可以加無數個人但是現狀這個東西特別條例我們的防衛韌性的提升裡面它是一個8年期8年1.25兆你現在把它拆解開來變成全部都要重新每一筆預算都要一次的特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7246.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7274.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
如果這是國民黨態度就就講嘛就是你們也不要AI也不要國內產製也不要台美生產線而對美採購呢就是每一筆每一筆都要一個獨立的立法特別條例是要這樣子嗎好 謝謝王店友言我們還是希望是說就是兩階段一條例啦這樣子的話是不是會對我們推動整個軍購會更對好不好 分階段但是不要分兩個條例不然就感覺是 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7275.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7281.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
就兩個跳好不好那接下來我們請林儲林儲英文要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7282.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7282.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好 許曉欣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7308.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7332.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
謝謝喔,那我想大家的意見我們都聽到了,那也都非常的尊重喔那在這邊我講一個另外的部分,就是說呢因為我們齁,就是第一個,我也是這個要保留協商啦那再來就是說,除了剛才大家講到的這個部分之外喔我們這裡面有一個就是呢,它上面寫是說但已符合國軍台海作戰需求,到這邊沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7333.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7353.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那後面這一段的部分啊其實我們應該回歸到前面的第一條大家懂我意思嗎就是說我們第一條裡面寫的是美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備與相關服務採購所以如果說把這個第一條的這一個部分然後跟後續這個就是把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7353.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7362.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
因為這邊變成是說美國對台軍售程式及美國提出軍售發價書者違憲但我們這個第一條這邊寫的是美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備與相關服務採購我想把第一條的這個部分那跟後續的這個第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7373.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7391.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
做一個這個嫁接這樣的話會讓這個條例上面那是比較清晰而且就不會有說前面是這樣後面是這樣的一個問題所以我們這個部分我們回去協商那我想在政黨協商的時候或許會有更進一步的這個內容那也希望說這樣子的一個討論是有助於整體我們在條例上面的幫助的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7396.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7415.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好 謝謝委員主要我們這邊的訴求就是說因為如果在你們的條例裡面想第二階段的特別要再提出第二階段的特別條例那對我們來講就是兩個條例那我們希望至少是一個條例那也希望說在野黨的委員們再回去協商的時候可以把我們的顧慮也把它放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7416.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7440.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那還有其他委員針對這一條要發言的嗎如果沒有的話我們就保留那請各位在黨的委員長會去協商的時候能夠考量我們行政院的意見好謝謝大家那我們最後一條接續審查行政院提案第七條民主黨黨團提案第八條國民黨黨團提案第九條有關施行期間的條文我們先請主管機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7444.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7462.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我們提出八年期的預算已經要顧及到我們軍購商購跟偽製案的這些相關我們需要認為的一個期程那如果說這個期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7465.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7488.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
沒有辦法按照我們這樣子的一個期程來規劃的話會有未及執行的一個顧慮那我認為還是希望按照行政院院版執行的這個期間因為我們這個本來就是一個整體性系統性的一個規劃這個我想我們在這個報告裡面已經一再的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7489.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7514.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那麼現在要將這個期程縮短的話就不管是軍購案、商購案跟違資案來講都會讓我們要形成的這個整體戰力會嚴重的一個無法執行的一個自然然後也會有讓我們的要提升我們的戰力造成很大的一個缺口所以還請各位能夠支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7516.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7541.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好謝謝部長那接下來我們請徐曉欣委員第九條第四發言我能夠理解就是在這個建案上面來說的話時程太短會對於我們整體採購所產生的困擾那所以說當然這一條呢我也是建議我們能夠保留協商好那在這個部分呢我覺得應該在國民黨的版本裡面的我們能夠未來再把 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7542.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7559.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個本條例及其特別預算施行期滿未執行部分必要使得經立法院同意延長之也就是民進黨團的這個版本的部分能夠加進來這樣子的話呢就可以讓這個整體而言雖然他寫說117年但是實際上他是能夠延長的那有這樣子一個空間最起碼來說的話對於建案本身的影響性我們盡量讓他能夠減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7569.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7592.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那這方面我們來努力好那我這一條我也建議先保留協商謝謝好謝謝徐小新委員請部長回應對我稍微補充一下就是說如果我們回到你們這個國民黨團提的這個前面的那些已經同意的那些部分包括海馬仕等等那執行的教育的期程就不可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7593.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7618.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就不可能在你們的117年的12月31號以前交印完畢啊請市長說明包委員我們先我們先用前面那個29套因為是同類型的裝備也是海馬仕那個系統那 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7621.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7645.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為這一次當然數量比較多我們前面的執行期程就是從一開始訂約我要強調一點,訂約完成一直到交運第一批大概是五年左右的時間這是大家目前看到前面十一套那因為後面的十八套是後面再加上去的那它是在今年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7646.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7670.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
要交那18套所以後面那18套的時間比較短大概就4年多一點每一個都不一樣就是我們剛剛講他預約的那個時間不同那如果依德國的經驗因為他德國買了40幾套左右的那個時間保守估計我們樂觀估計的話大概是像這麼86套大概是6到7年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7677.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7689.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
貴郎都贏在你的這個裡面你都同意就是依照依照這個這個這個智慧國會的這個項目這個智慧國會的項目海馬是我們這一次就是82套啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7712.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7731.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
他有一個一次簽約然後有一個交運騎乘嘛我們先依序 抱歉那個牛委員是零除英委員之後再牛許廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7735.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7749.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我想其實從剛剛討論到現在我當然認同就是在黨委員一直認為的需要所謂的強力的監督等等但是就像剛剛討論前面那個我先前進回到前面一下容許我講一下就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7751.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7770.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
一直在講說錢付了不來怎麼來錢我相信在場的包括國防部或者是部長到其他所有今天坐在這裡的將領沒有人希望是錢付了然後武器不來請問他們能圖什麼好處沒有他們最其實我相信在場最希望武器能夠一約準時抵達的一定是現在我們國防部跟我們所有國軍的將領們那麼當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7779.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7806.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為這個這筆錢是人民的納稅錢所以我們身為立法委員我們當然要監督那麼現在回到這個騎乘這一題是現在也是同樣的在他們提出了這一個特別預算的計劃的時候是必須要符合整個所謂的台灣之盾的作戰需求那麼這個需求裡面當然不一樣的包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7807.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7827.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他們在美國這邊或者是其他願意允售給我們的國家他就是有不一樣的時間點這是為什麼他不是年度預算而是一個跨年度的特別預算我要強調是這樣那我們現在回到行政院版國民黨版跟民眾黨版國民黨版是縮減到2028年就是117年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7832.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7844.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我想所有的大家現在回到今天這個時間點那就是今天完了下個禮拜就進入到4月了也就是說現在剩下來到2028年底只剩下 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7845.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7866.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
一兩年的時間兩年多的時間那這樣的時間點當中我們現在我再重新再講一次從昨天到現在我們在討論的是條例不是預算如果還要連這個條例過了三讀了預算送進來了會不會是已經到六月以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7866.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7875.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那言下之意是我們到底給這個從下這個預算然後到製造期程你等於是要逼 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7877.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7893.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這個美國難道是要光速嗎我相信現在他們願意給我們但是重新回到我們的大前提包括什麼叫做發架書發架書不等於合約書不等於製作書所以我要講的是如果這樣的話那民眾黨版在112年112年底這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7899.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7919.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個時間點但是呢他還是要經過立法院的同意就等於所有剛剛我們今天看到的這些順序還要再來一次所以我只是認為在這個時間點上面我們還是要給合理的這個特別預算所執行的這個時間點所以我還是認為就是應該要依這個行政院的版本所提出來的這個8年1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7922.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7933.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我要重新想就是8年1.25兆的这样的一个预算的时间期程让他在这些采购的这些不一样的项目的这些军购能够有机会到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7938.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7958.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們今天要請劉許廷委員謝謝主席所以我們今天討論特別條例討論軍購等等包含前面很多也許是過度聳動的報導因為常常都提到2027年中共就要犯台等等所以我們在討論國防的時候大家都有一些隨著時間的壓力我們當然希望每一次的軍購可以在最短的時間裡面最精準的被執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7959.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7982.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這我想國防部也不會反對這樣的概念我們都期待這樣子當然它會有很多外界的變因跟可能的干擾所以我覺得今天我們在討論這個特別預算的施行期程到底要拉得多長的時候當然你也可以講在黨版本對國防部來講太嚴苛了太苛刻了希望有一點調整的空間這個我覺得方向上是OK的但前提是我們也希望非常清楚至少在現在拿到發價出的這幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7983.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8006.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
他分別的交貨期程是什麼時候我覺得你有義務跟國人大眾做清楚的說明嘛也就是說從幾年開始交大概分幾期交完什麼時候建軍完成每一項每一項大概是什麼是不是可以提供一個比較完整的一個報告那我想這因為也這麼多前面要協商了這一條在今天要達成共識恐怕也不太可能那就趕快把這個資料交給在黨的黨團大家就依據這個東西來合理的調整這個條例的期限嘛這我想丟一個方法讓大家做參考以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8014.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8037.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝委員那我們接下來請黃仁委員我特別就是同意那個我們徐曉新委員就是建議保留的這個協商一個問題是在這裡特別預算本來就是一種階段性的一個方案短期特別措施的一個安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8037.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8059.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
政府现在把它当作是一个常态性的一个状况变成长期制度这个已经是被多方诟病这反映的是对政府的国家对财政与民主监督的一个态度所以例如前瞻基础的建设也不过是一次就定了八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8060.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8083.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那是先定四年再延期四年而且是實際上是分期特別預算制度上是先做一個階段再重新的審議而不是一次定很長的年限那每一個階段都需要再審查例如海空戰力提升計劃採購特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8085.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8114.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那就是已訂定五年新式戰機採購特別條例是訂定七年而且採購項目非常的明確這一次的特別條例是整個整體性的一個國防採購的框架如果一開始就設到一百二十二年實踐過場政策失去了一個彈性也弱化了國會的一個監督所以這個就是我我同意我們徐曉鑫建議這個保留協商好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8115.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8133.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好謝謝黃榮委員那那這條也是保留那我們現在進行保留部分的就是做形式上的跟大家確認一下保留部分的第二輪討論我們先從法案名稱開始那是不是就是正式確認一下是不是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8136.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8161.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
保留好那法案名稱保留那接下來討論第一條有關立法目的條文那我們第一條當初我們是決定是也是保留暫且保留但是現在確認一下確定保留好確定保留送協商謝謝那第二條是照照行政院版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8163.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8182.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那接下來繼續討論行政院國民黨黨團的國民黨黨團的第三條那是照案通過那接下來討論行政院提案第三條民眾黨黨團提案第三條國民黨黨團提案第四條有關名職定義的文件那 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8184.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8195.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
的條文我們當初是暫且保留那我們確認一下大家還是保留好確認保留好那接續討論行政院提案第四條民眾黨黨員提案第四條公共黨員提案第五條有關採購項目的條文那我們當初是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8201.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8221.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
暫且保留我們現在確認是保留送學商好確認保留送學商那接下來討論行政院提案第五條國民黨黨團提案第五條國民黨黨團提案第六條關經費上限的條文那根據之前的討論我們是暫且保留現在是確認一下大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8222.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8251.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
也是保留送鞋商好保留送鞋商那接下来讨论民主党党团第六条关收支规划财务计划的条文那第六条的时候我们当初是暂且保留我们现在确认是保留送鞋商好确认保留送鞋商那行政院提案第六条民主党第七条国民党党提案第七条关预算执行及审计的条文那我们当初的讨论是暂且保留现在要确认一下大家的意见是保留送鞋商吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8252.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8275.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
好確定保留送協商那國民黨黨團提案第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文那我們剛才是暫且保留想要確認一下是不是正式保留送協商好保留協商那接下來是行政院提案第七條民眾黨提案第八條國民黨黨團提案第九條關施行期間的條文那剛才是暫且保留我們現在確認是保留送協商嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8276.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8281.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
好保留送協商現在處理兩件附帶條例請附帶決議現在處理兩件附帶決議請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8285.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8291.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
附帶決議第一案為確保對美軍購交貨時程能符合我國建軍備戰計劃需要避免軍購延宕影響國家整體防衛能量或因延遲交付導致武器裝備已過時不敷需求一本條例之採購政府應與美方討論違約或遲延給付實質處理方式並向立法院報告提案人委員牛許廷 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8310.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8331.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
陳永康、林思敏、徐巧欣、陳玉珍、黃仁、賴士寶、馬文君、林德福、顏寬恆、羅明才、黃建斌、李燕秀等委員附帶決議第二案本條例吸引美國政府於2025年12月18日通知我國總額約111億美元約新台幣3500億元的軍售案練習美國國會可能通過的對台軍售案 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8338.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8358.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
待美方通知我國政府後主管機關應於之夕日起立即研擬強化國防及對美採購第二階段特別條例草案函請立法院審議本院應即召開朝野黨團協商列案排審重塑完成三堵程序提案人委員牛許廷 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8359.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8376.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
陳玉珍 李彥秀 馬文君 陳永康 徐曉新 林思敏 黃仁羅明才 徐宇珍 賴世寶 顏寬恆 林德福 黃建斌等委員宣布完畢好 謝謝現在處理這個負責決議第一案請問國防部有沒有意見我想是不是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8384.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8404.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為剛剛其實崇禾康委員已經都講了,他這個所有的軍售的部分,通常都有對外規定那現在如果就關切的這些個案,我們是不是改成說政府應與美方討論個案執行狀況並向立法院報告然後下面也是寫說政府應與美方討論這個個案執行狀況並向立法院報告,這樣可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8409.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8424.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
因為我們就是跟他要討論這個個案的執行狀況是不是請提供書面修正文字改一下 改成個案執行狀況討論個案執行狀況對 變成個案執行狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8433.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8434.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
簡義是同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8462.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8467.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們先印一下然後再請醫師同仁來宣讀修正的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8507.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8511.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好 我們請議事人員宣讀修正文字修正文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8515.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8525.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
倒數第二項政府應與美方討論違約或遲延給付實質處理方式並向立法院報告修正為政府應與美方討論個案執行狀況並向立法院報告說明第二項最後文字政府應與美方討論違約或遲延給付實質處理方式並向立法院報告修正為政府應與美方討論個案執行狀況並向立法院報告其餘同源提案文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8544.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8568.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
宣讀完畢好那請問大家有沒有意見沒有意見那我們就附帶決議的第一案就修正通過謝謝接下來討論附帶決議第二案請請呃要請宣讀宣讀過了嗎那請問國安部有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8569.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8591.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們講講 我們自己講主席 不好意思等一下 劉委員你們要對 我提案人說明一下嘛 好不好因為這第二案跟其實剛剛條文第八條是掛鉤的嘛所以因為它的處於方式可能會因為發架書等等來的是先來後來會有變化的所以本期建議這一條一起保留好 那我們我們協商一起處理 謝謝大家有沒有意見 沒有意見好 那附帶決議第二案我們就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8595.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8620.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
最后宣告有关行政院含请审议强化防卫任性及不对称战力计划采购特别条例草案本院台湾民众党党团拟据保卫国家安全及强化不对称战力计划采购特别条例草案及本院国民党党团拟据强化国防及对美军事采购特别条例草案也并按审讯拟据审查报告提报院会请问各位委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8621.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8627.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
院會審議前是否交由黨團協商交由黨團協商謝謝院會審議時請推敗一位委員做補充說明請推敗好 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8639.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8660.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好那就是由我來補充說明那二本次法案審查若有法制用字調次及援引調次之調整授權議事人員處理本次聯席會議事錄本次聯席會議事錄議事錄循例授權由主席核定後確定232526日為一次會現在散會 |