| IVOD_ID |
17303 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17303 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-26T08:33:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-26T14:16:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:42:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685f41f26c1e609cb7286a976789303406b44e0a145e6cc6f0fcd547b3bf71512275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部長及勞動部部長就「在職照顧者支持體系是否完善、長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排假評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月25日及26日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:39 - 14:16:00 |
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現在繼續開會本日會議議程為邀請衛生福利部長及勞動部部長就在職照顧者支持體系是否完善長照3.0服務體系與長照安排價的評估進行專題報告並備諮詢接著介紹在場的委員及列席官員王振旭委員衛生福利部石崇良部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1627.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1643.121 |
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市部長是9點到12點和1點以後1點以後會有我們的呂健德次長12點到1點是呂健德次長長期照顧是祝健方次長護理及健康照顧是陳青梅副市長社會及家庭屬游宜君副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1656.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1682.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
疾病管制署林明辰副署長勞動部洪森漢部長好像沒有拍手就有點冷對不對勞動力發展署黃玲玉署長職業安全衛生署林玉堂署長勞動條件及就業平等師黃啟亞師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1686.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1691.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
勞動關係師王厚維師長勞動福祉退休師王維稱師長勞動保險師陳文忠副師長接下來請部會進行報告首先請衛生福利部市部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1711.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1736.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天呈大院邀請來做這個在職照顧者支持體系是否完善長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價評估的專案報告那請敬請參閱書面資料以下呢就則要跟各位委員來做說明那麼長照3.0是在今年的1月1號開始推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1738.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1756.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那麼建立在長照2.0的基礎上那麼以健康促進醫療照護的整合積極的賦能提升機構的量能還有強化家庭的支持導入智慧照顧落實安寧善中跟人力專業發展等八大目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1757.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1780.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
打造一個連續性的依照整合的服務那麼其中在這個目標當中有一個強化家庭支持那麼是由本部跟勞動部來共同規劃那麼希望能夠達到照顧不離職的這個目標那麼相關的做法上有以下幾點那麼第一就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1781.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1805.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
擴大推動這個住院整合照護服務來減輕民眾在住院的時候的照顧壓力跟經濟的負荷那麼由護理跟照服人員來分工照護那家屬就不用像過去一樣的24小時的陪伴或自行聘護看護那麼費用不僅降低那麼同時也可以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1806.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1825.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
減輕護理人員的壓力目前是有110家醫院來辦理那麼擴及床數已經達5000床那麼今年我們擴大預算編列希望朝向更多的服務人次來邁進那第二是縮短出院準備到 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1826.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1847.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
銜接長照服務的時間那麼過去在106年長照2.0開辦的時候平均出院到接受到長照銜接服務的平均需要51天那麼到114年已經縮短到3.66天也就是平均4天 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1848.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1876.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那麼今年我們希望能夠再往前一步那麼縮短到平均兩天那麼逐步的再邁向那麼住院當日就可銜接長照服務那麼同時對於這個社區的這個長照需求者那麼我們也開辦那麼有線上那麼可以申請那麼也來說短這個在社區申請長照服務的時間那麼第三呢是我們持續的在擴充日間照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1878.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1901.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
服務的量能那麼截至到114年的12月底那麼社區的長照機構已佈建完成1568處來提供沿拖還有夜間的服務那麼讓長照的服務的個案的家屬可以安心的送託那麼最後呢是還有第四點是要這個落實這個所謂的這個喘息服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1906.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1926.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那麼因此呢今年也推出了這個新的照顧有喘息的支持家庭照護的一個計畫也就是二對多的照護模式互助喘息服務事辦計畫那麼利用各社區的閒置空間有一名照服員來搭配 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1926.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1950.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
一至三名的家庭照顧者共同照顧多位的照顧人員彼此支援那目前已經在全國16個縣市部件50處的服務據點展開示範那麼第五是家照共榮據點來提供家庭照顧者的支持那麼一方面可以協助家庭照顧者提供他 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1950.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1969.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
照顧的諮詢還有心理的協談服務還有在宅的照顧的技巧的指導還有支持團體紓壓活動那麼並也運用志工的關懷來減輕家庭照顧者的壓力那麼到114年底已經佈建完成家照據點191處那麼預計在117年可以完成200處的工農據點 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1975.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1997.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那麼最後呢那麼今年我們也推動25歲以下的年輕照顧者的支持方案那麼讓這個年輕照顧者能夠在除了這個減輕他的家庭照顧壓力能夠持續的就學穩定那麼對於這個比較嚴重者我們提供就是被照顧者較嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1998.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2018.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那麼市級以上我們就安排公費安置那麼另外比較輕度的我們就安排在社區式的服務來做地帶的照顧支援讓年輕照顧者白天可以在就學時間內安心的就學那麼無需擔心被照顧者獨自在家的照顧需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2019.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2039.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
此外我們也積極的在引導聘僱外看的家庭也能夠使用多元的長照服務例如在等待外看到職期間或者是在轉換僱主、失聯或訪僵等等的照顧空窗期 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2039.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2061.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
也可以來申請照顧服務的相關的長照服務而聘請的這個外看之後也可以搭配使用勞動部的短照的服務來紓解空窗期的照顧壓力那麼從114年的9月1號開始那麼也放寬了聘僱外看的家庭也可以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2062.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2076.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
社區式的日間照顧還有家庭的託顧服務來促進個案參與一對多的社區照顧服務提升被照顧者的社會參與及互動我想台灣進入了超高齡社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2078.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2104.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
本部將結合各界的力量那麼落實長照3.0來達到擴大社會投資減輕家庭負擔同時強化醫療照護的銜接那麼給予家庭照顧者更多的支持那麼對失能者也有更完善的照顧那麼達到健康老化在地安老及安寧善終的願景以上報告再請各位委員不吝指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2106.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2109.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 謝謝石部長的報告 接著請勞動部洪部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2119.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2138.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席各位委員大家好那今天邀至貴委員會那就在職照顧者支持體系是否完善長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價的評估進行專題的報告那進行委員不吝指教那接下來我將從在職照顧者的支持措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2139.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2161.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
及長照安排價的評估兩方面來進行說明第一部分是在職照顧者的支持措施縮短照顧的空窗期首先本部與F部共同推動擴大傳奇服務及短照這個服務那讓被看護者經地方長照照管中心評估如果符合長照需要等級第二到八級而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2162.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2191.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
家庭看護移工因故無法續行照顧工作時,可向各地照管中心申請使用這兩項服務,以維護被看護者的安全與照顧品質,同時減輕家庭照顧者的壓力與負擔。截至114年底,擴大產業服務使用人士達到123萬,短期照顧服務使用人士為111萬,因使用人士大幅成長,今年勞動部已編列13.7億元,並同步檢討調高明年的預算,確保服務不中斷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2193.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2218.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
此外本部从114年4月推动多元陪伴照顾服务事办计划由具照顾专业及聘雇管理能力的公益团体担任雇主聘用本国及外籍陪伴服务员以一对多模式提供有临时短期紧急照顾需求的家庭弹性人力资源服务涵盖北中南东共13家事办单位 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2221.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2248.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那截至今年二月底以服務超過4800人次累積總服務時數突破4.6萬小時有效填補照顧空窗戟本部也持續研議簡化家庭聘僱看護工申請程序及作業縮短照顧空窗戟那第二是照顧服務員職業訓練的辦理情形在長照政策部會分工裡依照長照法的規定長照服務人員的管理培訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2250.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2269.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
資格訓練認證的有關事項由中央主管機關衛福部定之本部執掌長照人員及個人看護的勞動條件就服務職業安全衛生等事項與非為醫事或社工專業證照的長照人員及個人看護者的訓練技能檢定等相關事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2270.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2292.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在補助地方政府辦理造福源訓練方面造福源訓練由本部退福會園民會等相關部會及各地各地方政府共同辦理為協助國人投入照顧服務產業及因應長照人力需求本部依未服務所定照顧服務員資格訓練計劃規劃的課程訓練時數及師資條件等師訓並配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2301.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2311.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
該部推估的照顧人力缺口補助各地方政府辦理照服員訓練114年預計辦理114年已辦理310班訓練計8897人又為協助國人投入照顧服務產業及因應照服員人力需求針對一般參訓對象每人補助80%訓練費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2326.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2345.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
如具救福法所定特定對象身份的失業者免除負擔訓練費用之外還會提供參加全日制職業訓練期間的執訓生活津貼那第三部分是提供更友善的職場環境那為達到照顧不離職政府積極推動長照安排制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2346.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2372.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
朝向縮短長照銜接的空窗期讓受僱者可以兼顧家庭就業從今年的1月1號請新公法與勞工請假規則規定有照顧家庭需求時受僱者可以請家庭照顧假以及以家庭照顧為室遊的市價合計14天並放寬以小時為單位申請僱主不得扣發全勤獎金受僱者有照顧長者需求依法提出申請僱主不得拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2373.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2392.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
新政策目標是希望讓有照顧需求的受僱者可以更彈性的運用照顧陪伴家人最後是是否徵定長照安排假的議題長照3.0已在115年上路那計劃中包括強化家庭支持勞動部將配合衛福部盤點長照3.0上路後的民眾需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2394.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2415.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
的樣態對相關制度綜合思考並積極推動各項友善職場措施支持勞工兼顧工作及家庭照顧持續跨部會合作讓受僱者減少因照顧而離職的情況以上報告那敬請委員及各位先進指教並助主席及各位委員身體健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2416.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2440.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 謝謝黃部長的報告 現在開始詢答做以下宣告 以本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘 二10點半截止發言登記 三委員如有書面諮詢請於上會前提出預期不受理 四暫定10點半休息10分鐘 五原則上11點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2443.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2471.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
處理臨時提案 11點截止涉案 6有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在請登記第一位委員林瑞群召委發言 林委員請主席麻煩我們的衛福部長跟勞動部部長好 請兩位部長 石部長 洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2475.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2492.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
委員長兩位部長早我想應該很難得可以同時邀請到兩位部長來備詢這會期我當然召委那還要拜託兩位部長一起來努力攝服跟兒少跟勞動的相關的政策昨天安排兒少全法的詢答今天安排長照假 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2493.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2513.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
因為我很清楚的告訴大家 政府的職責就是要顧小 要顧老 也要顧全民 更是我攝護跟兒少立委的責任從上任來就一直在爭取 因為現在人晚婚幾乎都會走入到一個叫夾心世代 像我媽媽38歲生我 我38歲生我女兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2517.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2533.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那當我孩子四歲的時候的確現在勞動部有育嬰作為一個彈性的育嬰留庭或者是做後來彈性家可是還少了一端啊當我媽媽八十歲我小孩四歲的時候我兩端都要處理的時候你給我一方我卻沒有給我另外一方所以就要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2534.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2548.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
劳动部和我们的卫护部首先我先卫护部因为我去年在咨询的时候我就提到说要求两部会要提供评估报告到现在想问石部长评估在哪里到底那个需求是多少需求啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2552.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2569.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我再瞭解一下再跟委員說明您說的就是需要有需要請長照的安排假的人到底有多少長照的照顧假的需求是 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2571.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2598.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為這件事情從來就不只是制度的設計而是超高齡社會下每一個家庭正在面對的現實我上週開記者會的都已經也提過了我想直接告訴兩位部長要判斷長照的一個安排價有沒有必要其實不用這麼複雜我們直接看數據這是勞動部的一個114年的工作職場當中就業平均概況的一個調查超過六成的勞工曾因為長期照顧壓力考慮離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2600.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2626.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那我們又希望 總統政策希望不要照顧最好不要因為照顧而離職所以同時有76.2%的勞工表示即使無薪也需要長照安排假就是說他不用要錢來貼補可是他就是有這個需求這代表需求已經很明確而且正在發生請問兩位部長這個數據足夠支持你們推動長照安排假嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2627.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2648.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我想這個我們從幾個數據來看那第一個就是說剛剛在我的報告裡面也大概提到如果是住院新發生個案要接後端的長照服務那麼我們過去當然很長五十幾天那現在大概是平均3.66天所以這個有一個空窗那第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2649.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2675.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
如果是在社區裡面直接申請的不是因為住院在社區裡面要申請的那麼平均大概是10天重數大概是5天所以這裡也有一個空窗所以這個空窗當然就必須由家屬自己來擔負這個空窗級的長照的照顧那確實我覺得是可以來考慮這樣的一個資助那我不知道洪部長這邊這是你們的數據應該很明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2679.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2701.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
其實我們對於像這個照顧不離職為目標的政策我想我們當然都很願意來思考那的確在針對長照安排假的部分的話其實我們也在跟衛福部討論因為現在長照3.0上路那長照3.0上路以後過去其實大家會 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2702.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2723.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有些部分這個可能大家想說像痛點就是說哪些地方會有這個空窗的部分其實目前在長照三年上路以後會縮短到什麼程度那這個在這個目前整體的長照制度下面的這個政策的需求可能我自己認為可以再進行一輪的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2725.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2748.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
制度上路以後的評估那才比較能夠把需求掌握住然後來評估這個長照相關的價別它的必要性跟可行性我覺得它可能會經過一個這樣子程序的討論所以我們願意在這個程序之下來做綜合的思考我想勞動部應該非常知道現在缺工婦女勞參率低 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2750.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2762.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
如果照顧離子的話可能會雪上加霜而且現在問題是成本實在沒有消失而且被轉嫁出去勞工如果用離子來承擔切用人力流失來承擔家庭用健康跟時間來承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2764.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2780.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
像部長剛才祝我們身體健康當然我們覺得家庭的負擔很重的時候就很難最後整體的社會在用生產力下降跟稅收減少來承擔更具體的來看的話切為了一個員工要離職的話可能要付出約1.5倍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2782.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2806.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
年薪的重置成本 因為要重新訓練人所以紅部長這些重置成本最後會是由來誰來解決一定是你們勞動部要想辦法所以為我們不去解決這個根本呢那所以相對的話想問 石部長像我相信你們大家也會支持 可是前段的問題不能解決的話就留一堆不能到最後來留一堆問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2807.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2825.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
最後家庭照顧者最後又變成負擔很大因為他一個人在家裡去照顧娘所以你的其他服務的確到長照3.0時間有所縮短可從申請到銜接到所謂的適應事實上是要有些時間的所以就來問 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2828.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2855.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
到底對象是誰 誰能申請 需要多少錢有沒有裁員 還有事業單位會不會支持 所以我們就來看數據我們現在主要是想爭取的事實上是能不能新手 因為的確如果事實上是重新再找的話當然還好 可是新手的話衛福部的估計一年大概2到3萬人會使用到 所以市部長我們先針對初次有長照需求人給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2856.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2878.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
協助這個方向你支持嗎跟委員說明當然我們現在盡可能的去增加他申請的方便性包含線上申請等等但是因為第一次我們照專需要評估的時候就是長照需求評估的時候第一次因為我們還有半年再評估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2878.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2892.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以第一次評估的時候一定是要有這個照顧者也就是家屬像你的申請要四天你的選擇要七天那麼以目前來講一年大概新申請長照第一次初評估的這個大概在三萬多人左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2893.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2921.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以那我只要問你你支持這樣的一個方向嗎我支持就是以第一次的因為第一次它需要要導入這個長照的服務第一次進入這個系統第二個呢它也需要像委員講的這個適應所以如果是先限縮在這個第一次申請的我覺得這個是可行性的應該要去考慮啦如果我們用初次有需求這兩三萬人去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2922.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2941.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
計算的話我也幫部長算好了以平均薪資六成的薪資的話大概整體成本大概9到10億而如果我們用投保薪資的六成薪的話那整體估計預算大概6.4億如果我們用育嬰留庭的規模跟方式的話用投保薪資八成薪算的話大概8.6億所以我們用這個規模來試辦的話這筆錢對我們的勞動部應該不難把就業保險基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2949.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2969.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
是不是可以支應呢 因為我們看到的是 首先運力遊艇也就是用救保來做處理有潛力可循 第二不要讓勞工因為照顧而離職我認為絕對符合就業保險法的一個精神 第三就業保險法裁員相對是穩定的去年救保應濟的那個保險費是330億 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2972.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2983.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
實際給付的事實上是250億那帳面上的剩餘大概80億也都能因為有剩餘所以依法撥補給就業安定基金40億所以增加這條10億的計畫應該不是難事吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2986.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3014.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我跟文說明我還是分兩個部分第一個部分就是說對於長照相關的價別那要不要來規劃實施我覺得這部分我想我們是可以綜合思考的可是對於裁員的部分我還是要說因為當你需要碰到修法我這邊已經也法案提出來因為育嬰留庭的津貼其實是社會保險舊保是社會保險的法定的紀律所以如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3016.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3042.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
把這個就是說因為舊保基本上比較處理的是跟留庭相關的比較不是處理個別的價別那現在在處理的這個因留庭的這個一日申請他其實也還是來自一個留庭的制度所以如果要從留庭的角度的話那他可能這個在目前的這個法規的框架裡面他其實並不是法定的給付的項目那如果要把它修進去的話那的確那可能也還要檢討費率的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3045.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3059.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
不是 我會問部長也可以去考慮說到底有什麼樣的製作這個因為去年進入到超高齡社會然後加上台灣為什麼少子化晚婚事實上也是一個原因所在所以夾心世代是存在的如果不去解決的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3060.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3089.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那我覺得照顧離職這一塊就永遠沒解然後你的缺工的問題這個事實上是環環相扣而且再來事業單位也是支持的因為我們知道政策要推行明天跟企業一定要能夠協助在勞動部同一份調查其實也說得很明白將近有四成的事業單位是支持有這個價別而且逐年上升不支持的比率大幅下降所以這個政策不只是我們的受僱者支持僱主支持的也越來越多所以就算政府看 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3089.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3118.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
要不要我還是因為我其實是希望這個議題可以正向討論那可是所以這裡面第一個還是要先經過需求評估就是說到底有多少包括有多少人需要然後哪些情境需要那需要的這個時間長短大概多少這才有辦法進入到底經費上面的思考那經費上的思考經費的尺度也會經費上的尺度也會來去思考說那不同的財源的適配性 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3119.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3148.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
因為經費尺度的差別會跟你裁員哪些比較適合會有關係所以我的意思說我們可以正向的來做很多的討論可是我覺得可能前面還是必須要先從需求的理解跟評估這邊開始來進行那剛剛講說因為剛剛其中有一張講到其實並不是純粹這個保費的盈餘就是80億其實裡面大概去年的保費的收支的盈餘的話大概是40億 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3150.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3167.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
不過我在這邊最後還是期待因為我剛剛講說這個已經是不可迴避的我們的政府的責任因為為什麼我們就是晚婚跟高齡化所以我覺得請勞動部跟衛福部是不是在5月1號也就勞動前提出我們的長照安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3167.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3182.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
假的事辦計畫的初步來運作 而且方案中當然要納入到薪資貼補的那個機制的一個設計 讓勞工在照顧初期能夠真正的請得起假 留得住工作 否則的話我覺得在勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3183.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3200.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們的照顧離職這個問題實際上是沒有解決的我們的缺工問題也沒辦法解決所以法案提出之後也請邀請我們的民間團體跟專家學者跟相關利害關係人來召開示範計畫延伸計畫來針對於我們的適用對象薪資貼補的比例企業負擔的方式跟財務來進行完整的討論可以嗎好先做討論我知道洪部長剛剛提的有些問題有一些需要解決的可是我覺得這已經是不可迴避的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3213.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3224.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以希望我們兩部長能夠一起促成在勞動節的時候給勞工一個保障好 謝謝好 謝謝殷少偉的發言謝謝兩位部長的應答下一位我們請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席我們請石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3246.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3267.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我先放一下這個是之前大概四個多月前發生的一個新聞當時有個頻道叫做陳志明醫師那他在裡面做了非常多的衛教其中他就包括說他推廣台大北榮有一個可以奇蹟式治癒糖尿病的療法叫做細菌性療法 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3268.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3293.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好多人就打到北榮去問或是台大詢問逼得北榮不得不出來說我們醫院並沒有這位醫師也沒有這樣子的創新的研究革命性的療法那當時衛福部也出來說話衛福部就說他們會很快速的釐清醫師法對於虛擬醫師形象的法律適用性還有研擬一套合法的身份揭露那另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3294.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3307.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
當時四個月前您還說要建立頻道設置規範讓民眾在網路上看衛教的時候可以一眼分辨出誰是領有執照的專業人士誰是電腦合成的假身份那目前為止進度如何呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3308.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3324.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好抱歉這個我再來細部瞭解一下進度再跟委員報告好那我先那我等一下有幾張這個投影片我想跟你講目前這件事演變的方向還有它的嚴重程度好過了4個月這個是我最新找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3326.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3344.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你們發的一個新聞你們研擬了四個月那現在是說未來要攜手跟速發部推去醫療假訊息快速下架那你永遠都在這個研擬的行政步驟這四個月但是發生了一些事情讓您看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3346.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3348.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好我们先看这个影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3361.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3388.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
这代表你的肠道极度干旱缺水而且严重缺乏水果里的水溶性纤维润滑明天的行动指南是立刻打幅增加饮水量多吃两颗带皮奇异果或者马上补充一碗洋菜冻对于不能喝太多水也不能吃高甲奇异果的肾病患者这时候应该选择低甲的苹果莲皮吃并搭配适量的洋菜冻来锁水你觉得你认识这个医生吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3389.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3413.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我沒有印象沒有認識我不認識你覺得他講的衛教內容正確嗎不完全正確啦好部長我跟你說我有去查啦醫事人才人系統沒有這位醫師所以他應該是新的頻道新的AI醫師剛提到的那位啊已經消失了他的頻道本來有很多訂閱現在出現了很多新的頻道比如說這個他裡面喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3414.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3432.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
就有很多醫生陳志明醫師的影片又回到這個頻道了並且這個頻道的訂閱有25.6萬是衛福部的6倍多衛福部現在是4萬訂閱然後下面的留言非常的踴躍因為很多長輩是看這個在吸收知識的我們再看下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3437.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3438.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那你覺得他講的正確嗎也不無道理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3461.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3485.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你看所以我也真的去查了這位醫師這位醫師是有這個名字可是因為我找不到他真實的照片所以不知道是不是真的他本人本人好但現在呢因為AI產生影片的速度非常的快我看了一下你們衛福部是4萬訂閱你有沒有考慮如果你用石崇良AI來做衛教也不會輸給他你覺得呢我考慮看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3491.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3511.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我跟你說事情的嚴重程度是類似這樣子樣態的東西出來越來越多我們現在還不知道他的目的是什麼也許可以猜到一點點但是他正在蒐集大量的受眾如果您家有長輩或是一些家族的群組我相信他們應該會喜歡看這樣子的影片您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3514.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3537.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個他有一定的對象一定是這樣這種會有訂閱率的一定有他的一定對象那這個衛教的影片其實很多基層醫療也想要做好你也知道嘛有一些醫生他是喜歡做這樣子的事情可是第一他硬體軟體可能跟不上再來呢比起這些AI製作他是日更他可能很快就可以產出並且 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3539.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3566.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
他很懂心理學行銷學他會跟觀眾互動所以像這個醫師他最後會說如果你想要跟我一樣控制好血糖請在影片下方留言我想控制好血糖然後下面就一整排都是我想控制好血糖我想控制好血糖接下來再給你看其他的像這一位呢他也是有11.6萬訂閱但他想要規避所以一開始他稱呼自己是高醫師後來就說自己是高老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3567.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3573.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那這個呢甚至還會帶貨這也是一個AI醫師最後你看他可能會說醫師教你如何刷牙然後再連結到這個產品那這個產品本身不一定是賣不好的東西我們沒有我自己還沒有去買買看我們不能保證但他現在就是一個沒有人監管的狀態所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3590.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3602.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這是為什麼今天想質詢這個題目是因為這是真的收到的一個陳情就一些長輩他家裡看了這樣子的AI衛教影片那可能是醫師或護理師又連結到現在甚至呢這個詐騙集團他會盜用這個真實的一個護理師叫譚敦慈 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3609.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3636.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
他用他製作AI影片然後再做一個假的農會標章然後去推銷一些健康的農會的產品等等的那就去買嘛結果雖然長輩他可能沒有辦法去判斷這個連結到其實是海外的一些網站結果寄過來的東西完全就是名不符實就是一些垃圾然後不知道要找誰退款那因為這些東西最後齁您最後要面對的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3637.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3661.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
現在已經有醫師護理師很快你也會看到有營養師的頻道或者是復健師的頻道那你覺得你要怎麼應對我想這個問題從幾個層面來看第一個按照醫師法無視醫師身份是不可以自稱醫師這涉及到這個醫師法的密醫的行為那雖然他用的這個頻道他放的人他如果是他製作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3662.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3682.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
雖然不是用他自己的名字用一個假名用AI製造出來他可能也會涉及到醫師法的違反處分的部分我們會用嚴厲的處分因為平常的衛教當然過去很多坊間的衛教大家都在做這個資訊當中當然有一些確實性落差會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3686.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3701.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
不過因為如果你以醫師的身分因為這個可信度對民眾來講他的這個相信的程度會拉高所以不應該用這個醫師的所以這個才會在醫師法裡面去明定不是醫師者不可以自稱為醫師所以這個應該要按照這樣來查處 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3705.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3721.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那第二個當然要趕快下架這個沒有問題這個我們會跟這個速發部趕快建立用這個PW那個區域下架我在這邊想要給您兩個建議就第一個因為七成的民眾其實他會先習慣從網路去獲取醫療的資訊所以衛福部就應該要主動的出擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3723.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3746.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
你們之前說會跟術衛部攜手合作那我現在想要知道說第一點落實快速下架的這個機制你多久可以做到因為我剛剛已經證明給你看了現在有很多包括灰色地帶他可能一開始說自己是遺失後來變成老實那第二個你是不是應該要建立一個及時澄清的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3748.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3754.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為現在也有很多這個反詐的這些軟體他可能會協助長輩去判斷這些資訊是錯誤的那我認為你應該要把這些衛教的主導權從這些詐騙集團手中搶回來甚至這些AI的醫護人員或是醫事人員他還在帶貨所以你應該要有及時澄清下架的一條龍這樣子的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3770.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3786.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我希望你可以給我們一個進度而不是像我們四個月前覺得你要做結果四個月後其實沒有那你大概多久可以完成這兩樣事情這個快速下架應該會比較快啦這個我們跟速發部我們之前因為在那個有一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3788.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3814.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那個影片這個那個性影像我們有建立這樣的機制的立刻都要讓它下架所以這個概念是相同那速發部的動作也很快所以我們大概一個禮拜內把這個一個禮拜內對好那這個澄清的機制我們來來把它建立起來因為這個還要一些這個資料做法上那這個因為都涉及到微教的比較多我也請國建署來辦這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3815.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3832.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
好 那下一個這個新聞你應該知道我不知道疾管署的同仁是不是有跟您表達了最近在某一個年輕的族群15到24歲他的梅毒罹患率急速的升高增幅是8%好 我們來看一下這張圖您看右邊紅線就表示這個15到24歲的年紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3835.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3861.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那其中還沒有包括黑素因為15到18歲有可能這個性命是要通報的或者是需要家長陪同他們並不一定就會去就醫並且他會不好意思嘛那這個您也懂他可能嚴重的程度因為初期他的症狀不一定很明顯但到末期他嚴重程度會影響到神經包括平衡啊 視力啊或者是精神疾患啊更嚴重會到動脈瘤或者是心臟半膜等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3864.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3888.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我查了一下台南就發表了三個20到30歲年輕的男生他們來一開始沒有想到是因為沒毒只是因為脾氣古怪或是有暴力傾向記憶力變差那甚至智力下降等等的找了半天才找到原來是沒毒感染並且在治療完畢以後這個智力並沒有恢復所以針對這個族群的人蠻嚴重的你如果沒有把他們快速的篩檢出來給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3890.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3913.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
快速的治療他後續影響的不只是生育能力尤其我們現在小子化他進一步會影響他未來整個神經系統嗎那這邊是不是多久以內可以請您請疾管署提供一個報告針對這個年齡層這麼快速爬升他地域性他的危險因子還有他你們面對這件事情的因應方案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3913.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3940.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好 跟委員說明我們也注意到這個現象那按照我們的統計來看那麼從去年跟之前的資料來看大概是零病的個案下降但是沒讀的個案上升那上升的族群主要是在19到24歲這個族群是上升的最快那如果以性別來看的話呢又以女性的 女性在這幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3942.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3961.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這兩三年的快速的上升所以這個跟全球也有發現類似在COVID之後有發現這樣的趨勢那我們也在探究背後的原因當然有一部分男女性女性多數是被害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3962.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3988.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
就是這個是這個安全性行為跟多元性多重性伴侶所造成的這個就是這個性行為的問題那女性在症狀上又比較這個不明顯所以就醫上會延緩這個也是一個問題所以我們從去年開始吧我們就有這個匿名篩檢因為這些青少年他就如同委員講的他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3989.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4019.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
不希望被發現比較害羞不希望被標籤化所以在看門診的時候有時候當然就比較不願意來就醫所以我們有這個叫匿名篩檢的一個平台在做我這邊先中斷一下因為主席的時間快到了那我先跟你要這個報告就是說我希望知道說這個年齡層你們未來要怎麼因應還有你們有沒有分析出他的原因跟危險因子 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4019.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4047.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那第二這個是具體的建議請您看一下表格是台灣跟日本跟韓國最大的差別在於日本跟韓國他們是定期的就會在街頭做一些高頻率的宣導我們是偶爾有活動他並不是定期的那韓國是值得我們接近的因為他是直接把外展檢測服務拉出去所以他才可以快速的篩檢到這些高危險族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4048.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4071.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
你可以看到嗎有有有好那這個我事後再跟您請教一份報告因為你要先分析你的原因那你們才可以提出具體你們想要針對這個族群做什麼影響我想我們CDC有在監測這件事情他們有個分析好那我再跟你要報告可以可以沒有問題好一個月內謝謝好謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請邱惠如委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4093.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4099.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
主席還有各位委員同仁還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請石部長有請石部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4104.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4113.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
部長好我今天想跟您交流的主題是造福源職業範圍跟照護品質的問題我想造福源是我們長照體系第一線的尖兵如果要討論他們的職業範圍可能就要從護理人員的業務範圍這個角度先切入我想護理人員的業務範圍部長應該也非常的熟悉就是我們有一項業務範圍叫做醫療輔助行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4130.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4153.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那醫療輔助行為這個行為的執行前提是要有醫師的指示才能夠執行那一百年呢衛福部有一個含釋就是抽談它是一個醫療輔助行為應該要在醫師的指示之下交由護理人員來執行那我們來看一下照服員的業務範圍照服員的業務範圍就是做一些家務日常生活跟身體的照顧服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4154.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4171.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那所以呢換言之如果今天趙服務員他做了抽談的行為因為抽談的行為是一個醫療輔助行為他就會觸犯護理人員法37條的密戶罪那當然我們非常的了解抽談這個行為是一個醫療輔助行為但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4173.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4186.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們也非常能夠體諒到說護理人護理機構或者是長照機構因為人力不足所以礙於現實困境的考量部分的醫療行為特別是低度低危險的醫療輔助行為其實礙於 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4190.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4205.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
現實困境的考量不得不交給造福源來執行那所以我想衛福部的態度應該也是傾向這樣所以抽談這個行為在106年衛福部就做了放寬了就是把比較低度的抽談行為例如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4205.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4228.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
口腔內旋擁垂前的這個分泌物的抽吸那第二個就是氣切管內分泌物的抽吸這兩個低度的抽痰行為就放寬給造福源去做那到了109年又放寬了一樣就是鼻腔內分泌物的抽吸也放寬給造福源去做但前提就是要用手動吸鼻器來處理不能夠用機械的抽吸器 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4229.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4253.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那111年呢就把這三個行為呢又整理到111年的韓式好那現在的問題呢我想要跟部長交換意見的問題就是說其實你們關於醫療輔助行為的韓式其實都散落各處散落各處真的很不容易查我有時候想去查一個韓式真的大海撈針然後很難找這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是韓式的解釋內容很零碎化 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4258.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4262.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
像我們如果看到這個109年的韓式我們會以為低度的抽談行為就只有這一項趙服務員可以做但是如果你又去看106年的就是分別找你只看到109或分別找你只看到106你就會覺得106好像趙服務員可以做兩項那我現在就覺得說解釋的內容非常的零碎化那是不是在這邊就是建議部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4281.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4310.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
能夠用一個叫做造福源的作業要點也好業務範圍要點也好把這些零碎化的解釋把它整合在這一步要點當中部長不知道有沒有困難應該可以這樣做我們目前把一些規範這個做成QA也好或者是在一個專區讓他容易查詢那基本上他應該是納入造福源的訓練因為我們造福源有訓練所以這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4311.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4315.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
要做這些事情也都要經過訓練所以他應該要在趙服務員的手冊裡面訓練手冊裡面把它納入我知道謝謝部長願意來做一個整合但是其實真的以查找的迅速性還有就是法律的效力的位階來說的話你放在一個專區其實也不太好 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4335.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4349.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
查找如果有一個要點大家就直接找那個要點然後所有的答案就很清楚的羅列在那裡面所以我還是希望部長能不能考慮就是用這種因為要點其實他只是行政規則那你們就是把那些零碎化的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4350.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4378.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
放到這個要點裡頭其實會比較有效率性那除了抽談這件事其他的我呈現在畫面上的其他的醫療輔助行為其實也是部分低度的這些醫療輔助行為其實是放款給造福員去執行那一樣有散落各處而且資訊零碎化的一個問題那所以我才會建議說能不能用要點把這些資訊整合在一起這是第一件事情那第二件事情那我就來講一下就是說因為剛剛我們有看到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4380.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4404.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
100年的韓式說抽痰是醫療輔助行為護理人員應該在醫師的指示之下行之但是106、109、111又出現了三樣低度的抽痰行為是可以放寬給照服員去執行的那會出現一個現象就是說後韓式某個程度就抵觸前韓式那所以我建議這邊因為有些人會看得一頭霧水怎麼我這邊看到抽痰是 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4404.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4430.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
護理人員要親自為之的醫療輔助行為在那邊又看到說某些那個抽談是可以交給照服員做的所以可能大家會看得一頭霧水所以我認為說這些不合時宜的含釋不夠精確的含釋是不是可以廢止掉不一定要廢止或者是做一些修正才不會說大家東找一個看到A資訊西找一個看到B資訊然後會覺得說到底現在是什麼一回事完全搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4432.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4446.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
醫療輔助行為的界限因為衛福部的含釋就是會造成我們這樣混淆那除了抽談這個行為有這種後含釋抵觸前含釋其他的部分醫療輔助行為交給造福員去做的也一樣有這個問題所以部長不知道這個問題衛福部這邊可不可以來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4449.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4476.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
謝謝委員指出這樣確實在過去因為時空背景不同那不斷的在演進那過去經常都是因為有一個這個譬如說某個單位或者是衛生局來詢問或者是建議這個行為可不可以由照服員來執行然後在經過團體大家討論之後認為說可以所以就出了一個函式所以都是one by oneone by one這樣子在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4477.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4482.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
累積久了之後確實也有必要那麼把它整合起來所以我會請業務單位呢把過去這個韓式裡面呢這個把它彙整起來那到底用什麼樣的方式來呈現讓業務單位再研究一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4493.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4509.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
OK好來那我們來看一下第三個問題第三個問題剛其實已經提到了這些低度的醫療輔助行為例如抽痰低度的抽痰行為就是礙於現實困境的考量那就交給照服員來執行我想這個就是衛福部這個不得不然的一個選項那我現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4510.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4517.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
比較想要跟部長交流的就是說那請問一下交給照服員來執行這些低度的醫療輔助行為那請問一下有沒有監督把關機制以抽談為例為什麼需要監督把關因為這個就是口腔內執行分泌物抽吸的步驟氣切管內執行分泌物抽吸的步驟那其實你可以從這些步驟看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4533.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4550.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
他雖然名為分泌物的抽襲死者他就是抽痰死者他就是醫療輔助行為醫療輔助行為為什麼要交給護理人員來做因為護理人員有專業有品質比較能夠保障這個病人的安全那現在衛福部不得不然把他放寬給照服員去做那我覺得需要把關那第二個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4552.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4577.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
真的需要把關因為如果不當抽談有可能會造成肺炎氣道損傷然後低血氧症所以把關照服員有沒有執行的品質跟專業就需要用把關機制來做一個監控好那所以現在問題一請問一下因為你們還是說做這三個低度的抽談行為是非醫事人員的這個照顧服務提供者可以做好那我這邊羅列了三個角色請問這三個角色都可以做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4579.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4603.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們是現在是把他納入在照服務員的訓練當中主要他是以可視性他在他可視的範圍裡面看得到的範圍裡面去執行那麼會規定在這個懸擁垂之前也是避免他引發嘔吐的反應所以大概這個是需要訓練的所以我們的原則上是這樣來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4605.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4624.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
呃我就是我的觀察我的觀察就是呃這三個人他在食物上都有做這三種人在食物上都有做好那部長知道做這個低度沖殘行為衛福部有做什麼管控措施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4626.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4653.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我想是這樣當然我們的制度上是要求是照服員才可以做但是家人要自己做當然這個沒有什麼違法我知道因為你們的韓式歷來你們的韓式歷來就是針對因為回到居家的情境然後真的病人可能自己有執行的困難所以當然就可以由家人來輔助那你們的韓式當中也寫到說因為這不算是業務的執行所以家人是可以執行我直接講那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4654.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4666.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我要跟部長交流的問題是什麼你們有設計一個造福員可以做的前提要件就是要接受16個小時的訓練還有實習課程那我想這個就是一個把關機制這個就是一個把關機制但現在重點來了請問一下有訓練的人可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4670.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4689.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那沒訓練的人可不可以做因為我剛已經提到了這個低度的抽痰行為他有他的危險性跟操作的專業性那你現在你剛只提到本國的造福院跟家人那請問一下外籍的看護工散落在家庭或散落在機構的看護工他們可不可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4690.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4697.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
誰可以做的第一個問題那再來呢這些人可以做之後因為你們有一個把關機制就是參加16個小時的訓練課程那如果沒有參加訓練課程的人可不可以做這是我的第二個問題那我現在跟部長再進一步講其實沒有訓練的人他沒有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4707.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4724.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以換言之解讀起來呢誰都可以做路人甲也可以做所以你剛剛就回答家人也可以做那我是認為說應該要建立一個裁罰機制因為我剛剛已經說了操作步驟非常專業性再來不當抽檯會有那些結果所以我在這邊就是要懇請部長可不可以建立一個裁罰機制那為什麼因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4726.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4751.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
確保造福源有執行能力非常重要我PPT上呈現的是一個監察院的糾正文當中所呈現的司法判決就是有一個外籍看護工他就是在幫他的個案做抽談結果他因為不敢抽談不會抽談他就不想做結果就被雇主解除契約然後就被遣送回他的母國所以我在想有一些看護工你叫他做他沒有信心他沒有能力他不敢做所以我覺得不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4751.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4766.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
張三李四阿狗阿貓都可以來做要有經過訓練那如果沒有符合這些資格你要制定罰則如果沒有罰則這個低度的抽談行為真的是到處亂做真的會傷及病人的安全那部長你覺得如何建立裁罰機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4767.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4784.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
第一個在長照體系裡面不論是住宿式機構或者是社區或者是居服那麼都是要經過訓練的照服員才能夠執行另外如果是家人的自己照顧在家裡面的不是在機構的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4786.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4810.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那這個家人自己去執行的時候當然我們建議他去學習之後才執行但是是不是這樣要把他訴諸於要去要去克與他的處分或罰則其實這個要好好的研究這個跟無照保姆一樣嘛無照保姆現在兒童權法也沒有規範所以本黨昨天就在相同的地點相同的時間提出來說無照保姆應該做管制然後我們提出的方案是罰1到5萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4812.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4834.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
而且要命令他立刻停止他的服務行為那因為這個低度的抽糖行為真的要建立一個管制機制我再往下部長可以再用兩三分鐘思考一下好所以監察院的糾正文也提到說到底我們開放給造福源去執行這些動作他們是做抽糖的行為還是做抽稀分泌物的行為其實有時候很難區分就像你們提到的口腔 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4836.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4853.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
玄翁槌前跟玄翁槌後 前可以做後不可以做其實趙芙芸坐下去有沒有越界其實我們也不知道所以要建立把關機制那這個是一個判決內容就是有個看護工他做抽談的行為超過玄翁槌被判密戶罪所以我覺得這裡要檢討就是說到底這個前跟後要怎麼樣去把關有些人僥倖心態我一條管子 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4858.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4878.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
放下去超過懸垂後其實只有我知道別人不知道其實他已經實則觸犯了那個密戶罪那另外一個是欠缺認知他不知道有前後的區別他做下去其實他觸犯了密戶罪這樣子所以有沒有越界應該要建立把關機制我最後一張就是說可不可以請部長提供給我們造福源業務範圍既有的含釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4879.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4899.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
因為他真的散落各處不好找那我們有了這個函式我們可以進一步再思考怎麼樣去完整化他們的業務範圍第二件事就是廢植或修正不合時宜的函式然後制定造福源的業務範圍要點這第二點那再來就是監督把關機制因為我現在聽起來我拿三個角色問部長部長好像覺得造福源可以那 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4899.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4921.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
外籍看護工散落在家庭跟機構好像你還沒有進一步明確的答案那操作的程序的監督好例如說學員學學學前跟後的把關機制然後還有建立法則這個都有待部長來幫我們健全照服員的一個作業要點因為這樣才能保障病人接受到的服務品質還有一個專業的一個水準好那真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4926.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4947.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
30秒30秒就是部長不好意思因為工會一直來跟我拜託說可不可以向您請勿說去年衛福部有協調醫院讓這個工會去做勞教那今年可不可以擴大辦理因為他們覺得是得正啦那既然是得正部長這邊可不可以再繼續延續這樣子那不好意思那位主席不好意思那再請那個衛福部長做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4948.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4965.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
部長簡短的回答那個有關於這些函式我剛剛已經提過了因為這個有時空背景的演進所以我們把它整理一下讓它大家好查詢比較好清楚那也建立在我們照服務員的手冊裡頭我覺得這個是非常很好的建議我們來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4968.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4991.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
思考一下好不好用要點那一個月好不好這三個訴求可不可以一個月法規上層面上到底應該用什麼樣的方式讓業務單位再研究一下了解好那這個擴大辦理可以嗎這個應該沒什麼問題還是有什麼好那再請部長一個月內把這些資訊提供給我們好不好謝謝好謝謝邱會務委員那接下來請王育民委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4999.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5003.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請洪部長有請洪部長今天召委排的議題跟長照有關 長照家庭的壓力都很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5021.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5043.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那這個長照假看起來你們現在也沒有鬆口但是在討論這個議題之前我要讓部長來回顧一下之前我們其實也是解決長照家庭的壓力所以我們在委員會討論家裡有80歲以上的老人要免憑巴士量表可以聘外籍移工那我讓部長看一下你當時在2024年12月30號針對立法院這樣的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5048.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5076.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你這個發了一篇蠻長的臉書你所有的內容都是在反對立法院通過這一個80歲以上的老人免巴士量表可以聘看護工的這件事情你講了非常多的理由包括這個會產生器重就輕的現象包括你覺得外籍的看護工不是台灣要增加多少就可以增加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5076.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5100.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
包括你提到這會造成薪資的一個浮動這個薪資會變高那另外你也提到這個品質堪憂等等而且你估的潛在的人力需求高達16萬這個是在你的臉書這個是你親自發文的沒錯了對那這個我要請教部長就是你當時極力的反對這樣的一個開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5102.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5132.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
申請外籍看護工這樣的一個政策你講了非常多的理由我寧可相信你這是一個專業出發的理由那我就請你用同樣的標準來看待你最近就是宣布12歲以下家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩就可以聘家庭幫傭的這件事情麻煩部長你用你當時同樣的標準來看待這一項大幅鬆綁的政策你是不是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5134.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5152.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
雙標然後前後不移跟委員說明委員這邊寫說我們的態度是被動我想我們並不是被動執行所以這個案子是你主動提案的不是我的意思是說你這邊寫到說46條的修法被動執行我們並不是被動執行我想說給我一點時間說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5154.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5177.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
其實我們在去應該是去年的1月通過了這46條的修訂以後我們是很積極的研擬了六大的配套措施我們是主動研擬了配套措施你花了八個月的時間對因為我們包括跟衛福部之間我們包括系統的建置然後其實一些人員的配置其實我們研擬了包括有些在做法上流程上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5178.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5202.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
很好你花了八个月的时间去想你的配套这个我没有反对我是在讲当时法条要通过的时候你的立场还是极力反对因为通过之后你就必须去想配套我现在在问你的是请问12岁以下的儿童家里有12岁以下的儿童就可以开放家庭帮佣这件事情你赞成还是反对 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5203.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5232.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那當然我們現在政策是已經拍板要來執行那你當時質疑這個80歲老人家裡有80歲以上的老人這不應該開放啊你的立場是很嚴格的你覺得連這個都不應該開放那你怎麼會去支持一個現在只要一個12歲以下的小孩就可以拼家庭幫用你不是說外籍移工不是你想增加多少就可以增加多少嗎那你當時所說的棄重就輕那會不會有更多人就不想照顧啊直接去照顧小孩啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5232.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5254.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
你所說的當時的理由現在還是不是理由跟文說明我們的確是在去年的整個配套的執行裡面我們發現這個配套的執行是有效的這個配套的執行有效下讓原本大家其實原本擔心的一些狀況可以緩解跟降低要不要承認你就是有雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5255.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5279.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
你在開放12歲以下兒童這個就是可以找家庭幫用這件事情你就沒有嚴格把關你沒有比照是原來就是你之前發臉書的這麼嚴格的標準來看待這個新的政策跟我們說明重點是我們認為我們在去年的配套是有效的這個有效的配套下這個配套的有效之上可以確實是可以減緩一些原本大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5281.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5300.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
擔心的事情 你的配套大概只有氣重就輕這件事 你有說過外籍移工不是想增加多少就可以增加多少 是有沒有錯當然這個案都跟來源國有關所以我們後來 現在12歲以下家庭邦庸你們發的新聞稿是有144萬的家庭是符合資格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5301.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5327.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這是消極資格並不是144萬都會來申請他想要來申請就可以申請啊沒有門檻嘛只要家裡有一個12歲的小孩就可以來申請啊那你怎麼不擔心並不是要多少就有多少那部長我再問你一句今天這一個開放12歲以下就有一個小孩就有家庭幫庸的是不是勞動部提出來的政策是不是你們提的這個是我想是我們跟衛福部一起來研擬的那個時部長請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5331.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5352.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
衛福部有提供這個意見跟主張嗎你們主張就是家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩開放家庭幫忙是你們提出來的政策應該是這麼講在這個政策的研擬過程當中我們有提供一些數字包含在居家所以你們才是始作俑者是你們提的勞動部背黑鍋 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5353.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5382.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
委員這不是誰背黑鍋的問題那誰提的你回答嘛這其實就是我很好奇誰會提出這個政策大埔松保的政策這其實就是行政院裡面我們兩個部會其實一起來所以你們兩個共同商議的要提出這項政策對什麼時候什麼時候其實從去年就在評估啦去年什麼時候其實去年下半年就在我們在媒體上也有回答其實我們一直在評估這個政策中所以是去年勞動部就有這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5384.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5397.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
去年其實就開始在這個政策上面因為我們也看到了一些需求有些聲音然後我們把這些需求的聲音也做綜合的評估包括它的可行性包括的做法包括需要的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5398.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5417.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
你去年就開始研議好那我就直接問你那你找了哪些團體來做你的這一些相關需求的評估哪一個團體跟你提出需求說麻煩勞動部開放家裡有一個12歲以下的小孩我就需要家庭幫忙跟我說明其實這不一定是哪一個特定的團體總是會有人提出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5418.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5433.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我自己親自都跟蠻多其實有這個需求的雙親家庭的家長我自己親自跟他們談了解他們的需求的狀況那其實也有很多團體但會有持不同意見的那他們也在透過很多的方式意見的表達這些意見我們都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5433.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5452.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
你開了哪些會議你可不可以告訴我就是你去年開了幾次會議找這些團體這個討論是非常多的不是說哪幾次會議的問題不要說非常多這非常的含糊啊我想在立法院委員會我想要了解就是說這個政策到底怎麼產生的嘛那你如果說是勞動部你主動那很好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5452.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5477.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那你勞動部主動是因為我們洪部長很關心這個議題你主動去找了一些的團體那我想知道是什麼時候然後有沒有做成任何的會議記錄因為至少這個議題在立法院是沒有正式討論過的也沒有專報也沒有委員任何的提案那只有一個可能就是你行政體系自己提出來的嘛那我今天要知道是勞動部主動想要大幅開放還是是衛福部覺得要解決少子化 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5482.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5494.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
提出了這樣的一個想法還是賴清德總統他認為這個政策好棒棒所以非執行不可你們是奉命執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5495.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5516.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
到底是哪一個答案我要跟你說明第一個因為本期覺得不合理啊不合理是你知道現行的規定是什麼嗎你家庭包容現在才多少人嗎2000人你現在是要三個六歲以下的孩子還有四個孩子有兩個是六歲以下那這個政策是可以討論的我覺得是可以討論的但是我沒有看到任何討論的過程我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5522.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5549.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
過去我們在討論這個80歲以上要聘用外籍看護工他是長達14個月的時間在委員會多次的審議政黨協商三讀通過而且你們有8個月的政策準備期我就請問12歲以下小孩家庭聘用家事移工從宣布到上路你們就是一個月的時間這當中你跟我說你有開過會是在哪裡開會我要求交出會議記錄啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5552.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5577.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
昨天我在告訴你一件事昨天跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組的委員你有參與這個會議嗎 誰主持的今天有在現場嗎不是我主持的 是我們次長主持的昨天就有委員提醒你們你們在這件事情上面沒有配套措施也沒有考量民間團體的意見還在會議上面媒體都有報 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5578.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5604.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那這件事情你還說你們都已經配套措施想好了如果這樣子那就那個委員不盡責啊昨天開會還在提這件事委員我們這個政策當然是有配套措施包括對本國工作者的配套包括對於一些服務品質的配套這個政策當然是有配套的你還要講服務品質這個政策在這個配套都在上個禮拜行政院的院會後的記者會其實有跟大家報告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5604.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5621.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
服務品質好我們來看一下再下一張服務品質這件事情這當中有非常多的灰色地帶一方面我們現在在修耳托專法我們對保姆我們對於托嬰中心我們有很多的要求跟期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5621.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5637.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那這件事情你開放12歲以下的孩子這個幫庸直接進來他不會成為照顧的體系的一部分嗎家長不會請他照顧嗎那這當中前面你給他受什麼樣的訓練跟文說明第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5637.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5654.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你的配套說得太容易了但是我覺得你都沒準備在外籍幫傭的定位上面我們認為他其實比較是家務的幫傭但他可能會協助性的協助一些家人的照料協助性的會有家人的照料可是他的確現在跟專業的保姆之間的這個職能是有蠻大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5655.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5672.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個蠻大的落差包括其實一個保母她其實可能你的配套應該是告訴本席說你們針對這一類要進到家庭的你現在大幅開放他會接觸到孩子所以你事先給他什麼訓練你將來規劃的課程是什麼他們可能要接受哪些訓練第一個他在母國就會有一定時數的訓練多少時數 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5676.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5689.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
每個國家會不同那第二個是我們其實有規劃他進到台灣以後我想衛福部這邊會有給一個基本的照顧的課程有喔幾小時來部長回答 時部長回答幾個小時的課程還在規劃中 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5690.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5709.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
大概應該是這麼講就是說他不是取代專業的居家的那個保姆所以這個是不一樣的訓練那只是一些可能因為他在生活照料上會touch到會接觸到這個孩子他應該要注意的事項只是這樣所以聽起來都很模糊嘛我要直接講你剛剛講得很好啊這個開放80歲以上這個巴士量表你們花了8個月的時間兩個部會好好去討論真正的配套說是該怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5719.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5743.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你今天這個政策大幅鬆綁完全是先鬆綁然後再想配套事實就是如此真的不用再硬拗了那你就告訴我你們之前開了幾次會想配套如果你那個巴士亮表是花了8個月的時間請問你這個政策什麼時候跟衛福部開會然後去想配套我們私底下包括跟衛福部做了非常多次跟他們的次長做了非常多次都是私底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5745.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5758.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
就是對於有沒有正式的會議的時間跟技術有沒有對於配套跟對相關配套的發展我覺得這件事不用一套最後一個我要提醒你這不是硬拗我們的討論是非常多的當然就是硬拗我們看最後一張投影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5760.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5765.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
各個職業的缺工數昨天你們開會還討論這個農業移工其實也是相對嚴格的你們還綁了他的逃逸率的KPI所以你只給了7000名這個是你在對於農業移工你採取嚴格的審核但是我們看到家庭幫優你現在是大幅的送綁我跟你講為什麼因為農業移工的失聯率有9% |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5783.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5788.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我要提醒你的是這個失聯率難道不用做處理不用管理嗎你應該秉於專業你不要一下子是在業黨提的你就嚴厲的反對那現在是總統交辦了你就大幅鬆綁你現在讓人家看到你的雙標是非常明顯的能業移工他的失聯率的狀況難道勞工部我們不用跟勞工部不用來面對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5804.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5825.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那你標準要一致啊你農業這邊還繼續嚴格沒問題我現在就是看到你獨獨大幅鬆綁是有一個12歲以下的小孩家庭的看護工的失聯率大概只有一點多趴所以你是用失聯率來看囉我說農業移工我們之所以要比較嚴格的原因是因為他的失聯率真的比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5826.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5842.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這件事情大家看得明白你這個政策就是衝突上路不然民團不會有那麼大的聲音嘛你的委員不會昨天的會議還告訴你說請參考民團的意見那最後我問你民團要求的政策衝擊評估報告你要不要提一定會提 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5843.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5868.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
什麼時候因為這個報告是在行政院的姓評會提出這樣子的要求所以我們會在下一次的姓名會來提出這樣的報告多久以後就看行政院下一次姓名會什麼時候開好這個評估報告我要求給這個委員會這邊本期這邊我們要一份當然看你們徹底的評估報告好不好我只是最後提醒所有的政策就是標準要一致不要因為只是總統交辦的就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5871.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5888.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
就是大幅的鬆綁然後找一個理由然後就這樣子大幅的通過的確很多雙性家庭是有這個需求的當然是可以討論但是你前後標準不一是有這個需求我們是在這個需求下進行評估的好謝謝王育民委員接下來請王振旭委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5904.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5918.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好 謝謝主席謝謝主席安排今天的主題就是在職照顧者支持體系的需求那癌症也是重要的需求很高興今天有兩位部長在現場我還是先請石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5923.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5946.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
今天有兩個題目來跟兩位部長討論一下第一個就是配合健康台灣癌症死亡率降低這個國策重要的國策那我們在執行上需要還有哪些可以調整的地方第二部分就是強化癌症患者經濟穩定與職場的友善那這部分當然會牽扯到我們勞動部的洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5947.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5971.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們也了解台灣的癌症經過這幾十年來大家的努力其實存活率已經有明顯的改善我們在30年前1987年那時候存活率是45.4那到2017、2021的這些癌症診斷者他的存活率已經達到62.3%這個都是大家共同努力的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5971.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5999.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那我相信未來還會更好因為我們投資了大量資源那同時也有非常好的一些措施來改善這樣的機會的成果是非常高的那白總統他在癌症治療的部分也有很大的期待就是透過這個三支箭來讓這個2030年的這個癌症死亡率可以減三分之一那這部分大家都很努力的希望能夠讓他有機會促成 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5999.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6027.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
不過不管怎麼樣如果真的要把這個降低三分之一的目標達成的話那以2024年癌症死亡人數是54032人為例的話那我們需要到2030年死亡人數要降低到18000人以上才有辦法達到這樣的目標那意思就是說我們會有非常非常多的癌症病人離癌以後他變成是一個康復者或者是一個癌症的存活者他在這個過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6028.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6055.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
就會有很多需要政策或各方面要來調整的地方那我們了解這個癌症存活率增加以後相對來講可能就會有各方面的問題會出來包括當他在治療的時候可持續可負擔的治療與用藥那總統的這個百育癌症基金基本上就是希望能夠幫助這個部分那當然這些癌症病人他復健啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6056.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6071.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
後續的追蹤避免復發也都是重要的課題那我們也了解在這個診療以後有一部分的癌症病人可能他的身體狀況各方面不是那麼理想那就需要好的長照資源的整合一起來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6072.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6096.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那如果他康復得非常順利那他也具有好的工作能力所以繼續工作以經濟穩定就變成是可以讓他們持續對社會有所貢獻那我們可以理解如果這些癌症存活者他能夠提供好的工作能力的話那對勞工來講他可以經濟穩定那同時也有身心回歸到社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6097.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6118.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
持續來幫助社會那對僱主來講他就可以避免這個手手的離職他可以穩定他整體的這些工作量能讓整體的這個企業運作可以更順暢那對政府來講當然是可以減少勞動力的減損所以我們認為這個癌症存活率的增加是非常重要的部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6119.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6133.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以如何能夠讓政府來協助跟這個跟資方的協調讓癌症的存活者可以順利的讓他的工作跟經濟穩定都可以達到目標所以在這些需求之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6135.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6164.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
法治如何能夠有機會來改變癌症防治法在2003年就成立到目前已經有23年的時間那其實過去這這麼多年來對於這個目前18條的立法框架並沒有很大的改變第一次修法是在2018年那個修法除了改變名稱以外就是調整癌症防治委員會的成員讓他更多元還有就是增加主管機關可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6165.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6182.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
在辦理這個癌症預防增加監會的部分透過N捐跟團體的捐助我們不知道團體捐助到底有多少的益助不過起碼這也是一個修法的內容那第二次的修法是在2023年只是把科技部門名稱改成國科會 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6183.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6201.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以未來我們要到達達到2030年這麼遠大的目標我們在法制上我們如何能夠同步的做修正看起來是勢在必行大概我們剛剛提到的有這麼多的勞工朋友他癌症也康復了如何能夠讓厲害的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6203.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6228.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
適性配工 植物再設計還有鼓勵支持方案等等長照資源怎麼整合還有避免罹癌治療導致財務毒性剛剛所提到的一些問題還有有沒有相關的措施跟統計分析還有罹癌生活模式的改善等等這個都是希望再過來做癌症防治法修飾裡面重要的一些我們想要去了解的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6229.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6256.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那再過來我們也了解目前第五期的國家癌症防治計畫是2024年到2030年要執行那這個我們看到有關於癌症存活者的部分呢他其實相對是比較重視在照護跟安寧緩和療護如果他是無法治癒而是一個在需要處理者的話所以在這個部分針對於癌症康復者 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6257.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6275.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
有沒有更好的這個處理模式或者是需求我們目前看到這個計畫裡面相對來講是比較缺乏的那以這個跟各部位的合作為例勞動部的部分呢他其實就相對比較簡單還是維持在做這個職業性的癌症 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6276.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6297.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這個危害的預防還有協助做這個勞工的這些癌病的篩檢等等這個看起來對於存活者的這個友善或者是需求好像還有機會來做精進那我們針對勞動部過去這20年來我們也看到跟癌症比較相關的就是這個勞保職業病給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6298.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6321.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
的職業相關癌症那20年來只處理了將近700件那我們每一年有13萬的這個新病例產生所以如何能夠讓這個勞動部這方面有更好的協助其實我們可以看到很清楚從數據上勞動部可以更積極的來協助我們這些罹癌者未來在勞動過程當中得到的這個勞動部的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6325.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6350.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不過我們也很感謝勞動部在針對這個中央癌症防治匯報裡面的報告希望能夠針對這個職場的重返包括剛剛所提到的適性配公司、賽車系等等都有積極的在延續可行的方向作為將來勞動部所能夠支持的包括企業評比、永續發展等機制讓大家都可以瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6351.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6358.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
針對於財務的部分我們也知道其實台灣目前並沒有國家級的本土研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6359.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6387.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這方面我們真的很希望能夠讓疑癌家庭跟這個癌病病人治療過程當中所發揮的費用統計能夠有更好更全面的這些國家級的本土研究那這其中裡面有一項就是就業狀態是很重要的一個因素那這個因素國際研究告訴我們它是一個影響的指標所以未來在做研究的時候我們希望把這個內容能夠含括進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6388.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6411.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那智慧的這些處理是癌有不可承受之重這個就是所謂的癌相關的才有毒性依照這個病友團體他們2022年的這個報告裡面有20%的病人他們在治療過程當中會超過100萬那一般的家庭當年的儲蓄可能只有27.4萬所以有這麼多的病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6412.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6434.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
一般家庭一旦有人離開可能會從平民變成平民這個是希望大家共同再來努力的地方所以剛講了那麼多期待的就是針對於這個存活率的增加那在修法上面如何研擬它該有的內容還有它的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6435.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6454.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
第二部分就是針對罹癌存活率的增加應該研擬怎麼樣調整國家的癌症計畫我們剛看到2030年的計畫裡面我們希望把這些也都能夠有機會去做調整那這兩部分我們希望能夠透過衛福部的跟大家共同來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6454.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6477.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那第三個部分就是請問部或者是適合的單位進行理解對個人經濟跟家庭財務的影響以及相關職業跟工作衝擊的研究來完備整個未來希望做改善的部分那針對第一項跟第二項會請部長有一個完整的書面報告在三個月裡面提供我們做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6478.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6492.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那第三點的部分是不是有啟動了一些機制讓我們可以針對這些內容做本土研究好 跟委員說明那麼確實這個癌症防治法已經很久了這個是2003年的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6493.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6518.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
現在癌症的照顧當然也從身心靈是全方位的照顧所以過去這幾年我們也在105個醫院成立了這個癌症支援中心就是希望結合除了身心靈照顧之外還包含家屬的支持權益的保障等等那這當中當然也包含需要有一些支援互相之間的連結包含這個如何能夠再回到這個工作的職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6519.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6548.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以這個部分我們來看看這個是不是需要修正這個癌症防治法至於說這個癌症相關的研究按照癌症防治法就是要進行這個research的這個是每年都在持續的進行當中但是在這個委員所提到的這個個人經濟跟家庭財務的影響的部分我們來研議把它納入在這未來的癌症的這個研究的題目裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6549.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6568.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
是好謝謝那這個部分就麻煩在第一第二項給我們書面報告那第三項也到時候讓我們多了解一下齁再回來等這個演繹謝謝謝謝施部長那我再請教一下我們洪部長也謝謝洪部長對於這個勞動朋友他們離開過程裡面的得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6568.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6591.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
很多相關的協助先表達感謝我們也希望勞動部能夠建置離愛勞工職場友善資訊專區我相信這個專區就比如像身心障礙者接位支援等等的這個專區一樣我們希望透過這個專區的設置可以讓這個癌友使用法定的權益等等以外那也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6593.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6612.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
把一些常見的QA包括僱主跟勞工之間的問題能夠透過這個專區來做友善的連結那這個部分我們也常常接收到相關的訊息就是可不可以請勞動部可以再做一些司法性的事宜包括說 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6613.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6639.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們了解這麼多的勞動朋友他一旦離開以後那在職的勞工經過治療那事業單位以業務緊縮沒有工作崗位為由來解雇那不讓勞工回來這是常見的一個面向樣態另外在職勞工離開以後雇主不願意調整職務或者是提供教育訓練來協助勞工改善就直接把他解雇這是另外一個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6640.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6667.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那另外一種雖然比較少見可是還是會出現的是面試雙方合意拚顧以後勞工去健檢發現糟糕厲害了公司隨即表示不再雇用那這些面向是不是能夠麻煩勞動部這邊有一個專區來做回答以外那也可以通行給地方政府跟相關的單位來做一個函示避免相關的爭議的再現那不知道這邊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6668.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6686.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 那個第一個很謝謝委員對於這個離開勞工的關心那就委員剛才講到包括我們在網站上的專區那其實是有些資料在上面只是我們也可以來檢討那把它其實放置的位置能夠更顯眼更容易查找的到這部分我們會來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6687.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6713.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
第二是委員剛剛提到的這三個意見我想我們應該都是可以來做成相關的函式甚至我自己是希望我們盡快兩個禮拜內我們把它完成這樣子好謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員那接下來請林淑芬委員待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6722.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6727.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6739.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6754.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個你們開放了12歲以下有小孩的家庭就可以直接申請這個外籍幫傭那剛才你很多委員問了那你說你們評估很久事實上也真的評估很久了那我現在要問你們你們到底做了什麼評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6756.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6774.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
具體的你們評估至少去年我問你你就說你們正在評估至少在你沒上任以前他們也說他們在評估了在勞動部而言已經評估很久沒有兩年三年也很多年了那你可以具體告訴我你們評估多久了然後評估什麼結果報告來了可以告訴我們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6777.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6801.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
第一个其实在这几个月里面我们第一个还是要先去掌握到底有没有这个需求或需求的样态这样问你说你们做了失业冲击评估了吗我们其实我们其实对于包括他可能会会对于这个托育的人员或者是家事的人员其实可能会有会不会对你先回答我有多少家事服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6802.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6825.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
呃員的從業人員多少的居家保姆多少終點家事工終點替人家煮飯打掃的你先告訴我有多少從業人員再來告訴我你們評估這幾年了不是幾個月你沒上任以前他們也說他們在評估那評估這麼久了衝擊是多大跟文說明吼第一個家事從從業人員是1.3萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6827.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6842.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
家事從業人員1.3萬然後呢居家保姆多少人居家保姆大概2.8萬人終點這個家事打掃的還有煮飯的多少家事從業人員是1.31.3萬你們從以前就這樣講其實不止欸現在多少廣告都在講說我倒數來幫你煮飯欸你們關於這個評估怎麼統計的你告訴我統計資料怎麼統計這個結果居家是2.8萬對你要告訴我居家的數字應該是為什麼這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6858.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6874.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
跟委員補充我們在到宅的就是到家裡去服務的保姆大概是3000我們是講保姆保姆就是知道啦保姆大概就是全部就是居家保姆就有證照的兩三萬我們都知道啦我在問他的是勞動領域的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6878.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6889.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們其實是從相關的職業公會這邊那你們做的時候衝擊會有多少嗎會有多大嗎委員 這確實是要看到時候申請的量有多少所以你們都沒有做出具體的衝擊評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6891.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6898.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那你們做了性別影響評估了沒因為性評會教學你們不做你們做了兒童最佳權利的評估了嗎沒聽過有做嗎我們相關的評估都有在做是報告還沒寫出來都沒有寫出來那我們報告那你們看過報告了嗎有其中的有final的報告出來了嗎沒有最終的版本性別影響評估我們會在下一次的性別影響會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6916.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6941.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
失業衝擊報告也沒有寫出來失業影響評估的報告也沒有寫出來兒童最佳利益的評估也還沒有寫出來然後你們就直接就開放了我現在問你就說你都不知道有多大衝擊評估都不知道你就開放了現在我問你說守法是基本的嘛你知道我們的外勞政策最要緊的是要守住哪一個哪一條嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6944.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6947.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
本國人的就業權利我們是以補充為原則不能夠產生替代那是救福法第42條42條那他有沒有產生替代我現在告訴你說如果外籍看護工這個在長照的領域絕對絕對是補充原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6966.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6980.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
但是在家事 幫傭還有顧小孩的這個領域絕對絕對是衝擊原則產生了替代了 替代原則了這是違法的 我跟你講 這是違法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6987.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7016.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那我覺得更看不懂開放外籍幫傭你們的次長李建宏說提升生育率勞參率不是政策目標因為因為脫盟啊其他社會的那個社運團體啊還有公民團體啊他們質疑開放家庭幫傭是沒有辦法提高女性的勞參率和生育率甚至在新加坡生育率是下降的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7017.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7043.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
當他們這麼說的時候李建宏次長說提升生育率跟勞參率婦女的勞參率不是我們的政策目標那請問你保證我剛才問你這不是你的目標嗎你的政策目標是什麼我跟委員說明第一個我們其實在這個政策裡面最重要的幾個目標第一個是希望讓勞工尤其雙薪家庭的勞工可以減少離職安心上班這是第一個第二個是家庭減壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7044.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7057.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
有人因為12歲的小孩以下會離子的就是女性沒聽過是男性啦幾乎很少啦很少也有爸爸有很少啦大多數都是女性啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7058.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7064.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以你不要講說雙薪家庭 你要講說女性女性的勞參率大幅下降 托盟已經講過N變了我們也講過N變 兩個階段一個是小孩 一個是就救孩子 再來就是職場的第二個滑坡就是救孫 把孩子帶走全部都是救孩子 而這數十年來我們把 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7086.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7099.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個照顧的政策這樣一步一步整個公民社會整個台灣的政府一步一步的就把這些照顧的責任再往良好的公共政策把照顧公共化 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7100.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7117.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們透過育兒的政策照顧假的政策留職停薪的政策然後未來也有很多人在講要有薪無薪的照顧假等等配套一直進來然後你們不是在什麼育兒補貼嗎政府的現金補貼不是也都進來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7121.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7135.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們一步一步在往這個公共照顧化公共化照顧的方向在前進而你今天這個政策其實在鼓勵大家說不用了有錢的就自己買照顧家庭化付費化然後自己買單所以整個整個照顧的政策走回頭路 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7150.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7170.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
對不對我可以說明嗎你的政策目標是在大開三十年往公共化的照顧政策的反方向我們比方說育嬰留庭的彈性以日情現在也是我們大力正在推動的未來也希望能夠擴大研議現在很多如果外籍邦傭進來我請教你他可不可以顧小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7180.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7208.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他當然可以輔助性的會參與一些小孩的這個照料餵飯等等這些都很有可能的你們的社家屬衛福部的社家屬張美美副署長說外傭只會是家長的幫手家長在的時候是由家長負責照顧責任啊你們不是說要減輕女性的勞動力勞工的這個家庭負擔嗎啊家庭在我都上完班下班了累死了我要怎麼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7209.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7219.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
以增加女性留住女性勞參率為前提去開放然後你說家長在的時候就要自己顧這樣子有減輕女性的負擔嗎我下班了家長沒有上班大家就送到這個托嬰或是保姆或是托育機構或是學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7235.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7263.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那我下班了就自己顧下班再來的時候就回來很累還要顧所以就很累但你們現在說這個政策是只要你在家顧小孩這個幫庸是不能顧的這不是到底是要顧還是不能顧我們不是說不能顧其實應該是它的確是一個比較輔助性的可是的確它我們在我們在這個評估的過程我們現在也看到有蠻多不同的樣態我現在就是說你們在這裡都是睜眼說瞎話其實都是全部交給外傭顧啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7265.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7272.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
老實說就全部丟給外傭誰不知道現在長照制度裡面說是要照顧失能的誰不知道家事啦煮飯全部都是那個外籍移工要做大家都知道你說自己家庭幫傭不是照顧小孩的騙笑的嘛 沒可能嘛可是我要講你們不是把這個照顧公共化的政策走回頭路而已你們還把顧小孩連保母顧小孩都要正照制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7294.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7295.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
你連顧小孩都認為不需要專業連語言都不需要專業了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7301.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7327.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
顧小孩 外傭顧他的語文能力 連這個都不需要顧及了然後呢 保姆要政造制度你們也不用了依據兒少權法保姆居家室托育服務提供者應向各地方政府主管機關辦理登記然後沒有的話是不行的 不能顧小孩的現在是外籍幫傭 外傭就可以顧小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7328.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7332.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個是連照顧小孩 托育制度都在走回頭路欸我現在講說你們有做出兒童最佳利益的評估嗎在這裡勞動力被取代了然後托育政策走走回頭路然後整體三數十年來努力的照顧公共化也走回頭路 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7358.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7373.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
保定你到底承不承認會不會對本國就業會造成失業衝擊啊我們會在這個我們會有一定的就業政策的支持所以你承認是有衝擊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7375.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7385.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
當然如果沒有任何配套的話或多或少都會有一點影響怎麼或多或少會有一點影響但是這是為什麼我們要訂立配套來設家屬你們政策公佈以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7389.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7396.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
社家屬雖然是衛福部的馬上開了一個會3月23號叫大家來開會開會是通3月23發文3月24就要開開了一個因應勞動部外籍幫傭政策的相關配套專案會議這個會議在講什麼這個會議在講勞動部的業務裡面最核心就是在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7418.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7421.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
居家托育人員多元就業獎勵計畫所以你們知道說這個會受影響嗎會直接會衝擊到本國就業嗎所以我們要提就職職的方案你是無可替代到非開放不可嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7440.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7463.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
沒有就都沒人做了嗎 現在先行就是有人做有錢人請會去外邦傭的 現在也是請本國邦傭在做啦你自己說我開放外國邦傭 他更爽 有錢的人家庭 因為更有薪金請不上去的 因為我也是請不上去來 恐受影響 所以你們明明知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7464.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7487.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這一些不管是顧小孩的終點家事的幫忙倒載煮飯的倒載打掃的保姆還有保姆包括保姆我請問你如果一般人失業可以領失業給付他們這些人可不可以領如果被外籍幫傭來取代掉了他們可不可以領失業給付如果當然是失業的話當然都可以領失業給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7494.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7498.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那是要有雇主的啦對有雇主當然可以領稅這些人有雇主嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7500.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7524.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不要不許人煎煙火在你們開放這個政策會受到就業受衝擊會失業會被取代掉的人他們都是投保在職業工會哪一個是有僱主的我們有評估過第一個他其實不是一個失業的邏輯基本上他可能會比方說有可能假設都沒有配套的話他可能確實會有一些服務的失誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7525.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7530.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
你的配套是什麼 你配套就是這個 拿就業安定基金給獎勵金不是嗎你們24號召集大家你們評估的就是8000人受益就是你們評估8000人會失業所以計劃錢就來自於就業安定基金就是你們評估失業了要給獎勵金 前一頁你們就是要給獎勵金 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7550.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7562.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟委員說明救安定基金不是只是因為他失業而是他可能包括他勞務上面包括各種的需求我們都知道啦還包括他的培訓還再去轉職訓練啦總而言之如果你沒有開放這些外籍幫傭不會衝擊到他的就業他不會失業他都用不著你我可以自己賺錢我幹嘛還需要去領你那多少錢啊你能夠給多久你能夠給多久再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7579.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7593.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
在一些從業人員居多包括保姆包括家事服務工終點的服務工到宅煮飯的很多都是本來就是二度就業的而且都是婦女的從業人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7595.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7612.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
你讓他們在這裡再失業一次你覺得他們還會再轉業嗎不是中高齡轉業 是高齡再轉業他們會 大家都知道轉職再轉職 越轉越往下往下流的地方流啦我是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7619.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7633.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
一邊說不會被取代掉不是失業不是被取代掉然後你在這邊說我一邊要規劃他們轉職補助還有其他就業訓練轉職訓練還有其他的你剛剛講還要其他所以你的意思其實就是到底承不承認對本國的從業人員真的造成失業衝擊明明就是失業衝擊你在這裡還要講說沒有不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7648.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7665.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
跟文說明第一個當然如果都沒有任何配套的話確實會獲得你的配套就是失業以後我給你配套來承擔我們正更多的在就業上面的支持其實更多是希望能夠擴展他勞務的機會而不一定一定是他是失業以後擴展他勞務的機會就是讓這個市場變大 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7672.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7682.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那我問你如果這個市場有需求有能力負擔我會早不請晚不請你說現在找便宜的我跟你講真的有這麼便宜嗎如果可以請外勞終點加外勞我早就想要請了我幹嘛等到你開放你說因為開放以後會比較便宜你一定說比較便宜所以他會請得起嘛你的理由是這樣嘛我現在要告訴你我們當時而且你也同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7700.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7703.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
在國民黨修法要開放80歲以上全部開放外籍看護的時候長照失能的時候我們當時就講 你也這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7711.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7737.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
整個外籍移工的就業市場供給遠遠小於需求供給遠遠小於需求當你開放了在顧小孩在做家事的這邊的幫傭如果不是144萬的需求五分之一就好了二十幾萬的需求就跟你再評估八十幾歲 八十歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7740.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7767.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個開放外籍看護一樣我們評估二十幾萬人有這個需求就好了 同樣的邏輯他會不會照 我不要講說全部就馬上沒工啦大家寧可去當家事幫傭 外籍醫工大家寧可去顧小孩誰要去顧長照的失能的重度癱瘓的 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7768.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7776.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
如果移工他如果可以選擇可以轉換雇主他一定馬上說我要換去雇小孩誰要雇這個癱瘓在那裡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7778.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7803.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
而且這個市場供給小於需求所以需求面 你開放了 需求面擴大了那麼市場的價格就會上漲了大家都知道這個價格已經上漲了還沒有開放外籍家庭幫傭的時候已經上漲我再問你一件事開放外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你可不可以回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7804.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7828.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這一些在幹顧長照的都不用適用勞基法沒有得到勞基法的勞動權益勞動條件的保障那我再問你在幹顧小孩家庭幫傭的這一些外籍移工外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你在這裡回答我目前就法規上面家事移工是沒有適用勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7829.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7838.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
他是因為長照那個是政策上的管制現在我問你現在家庭當庸你還是要繼續讓他不適用可是即便因為大家適用了勞動力就沒那麼便宜了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7844.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7863.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那大家要問你 你都以前就知道的在家事服務的領域裡面 在私領域裡面長期都有勞動條件上的不公平 甚至剝削的情形你以前當立委的時候 在這裡也大家的撻伐過的你講過的 那這個事情你還是要維持不適用勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7870.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7880.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你覺得這樣子 這樣子的糾紛會不會更多現在我給大家講喔你不要以為不是用勞基法比較便宜 沒有因為大家的玩家越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7881.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7885.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因為我沒有想要照顧家事幫傭的孩子家事幫傭的你不給我照顧我就每天跟你玩遊戲然後這個衝突衝突就把照顧的責任丟給家庭自行去買單家裡面你自己照顧外籍幫傭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7904.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7918.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
失能的老人 外籍搬佣跟僱主 大家說 我要完結 他自己去承擔 情緒也會負擔然後政府雙手一攤說 這個跟我無關 跟我無關的 我都不用去煩惱這個政府什麼都不用做 就要完結是僱主跟外籍看護跟沒辦法的失能的被照顧者 現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7931.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7953.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
現在這個吵架會吵得更嚴重我在這裡可以告訴大家因為你又開放了可以顧小孩大家更想轉職但我們的法規規定不可以轉換雇主要雙方合一才可以所以每天跟你玩玩到有一天你雇主受不了啊你終於就說 好吧 放你走吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7956.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7966.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
請問那未來長照顧詩能的長期躺在那裡 重度的誰人要顧 外籍幫傭 外籍移工真的遠遠不絕嗎保證你回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7971.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7987.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
跟委員說我們第一個在這個外籍看護工或外籍幫傭上面其實即便他是在家庭裡面的權利其實我們都希望接下來我們其實也透過相關的這個雇主的手冊或各種其實盡力的希望來去做維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7988.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7990.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
你現在做保釣也很厲害 做瓜也很厲害你現在講話跟以前做立委都不一樣我們現在說 其實你如果說 喔 誠實地告訴社會我這個衝擊有多大 當然我準備怎麼做 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8005.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8007.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這個對兒童的權益會有影響什麼那你們還會怎麼做那如果對這個性別影響是什麼我準備怎麼接起來那我們還可以在你們心裡面想說至少這是一個負責任的套路我還沒講完嗎第一個對於他可能會在跟本國工作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8027.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8044.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
跟針對本國工作者上面可能的工作的影響的部分我們會跟衛福部這邊來擬一整套的計畫來去支持本國工作者在勞務上市場的拍拖衛福部其實是喔老實說是你們固定聲音就聲了啦我現在要說衛福部也有啦欸 抱歉 兒童托育服務法不用立得這麼嚴了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8049.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8055.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
整個法還在立法院協商我跟各位來用心跟三更半明跟整個開好開滿然後說嚴格管制保姆然後居家托兒要怎麼規範一邊強度的規範托育然後在這裡立法要很高強度的管理一邊要放寬沒有訓練的外籍幫傭來育兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8076.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8079.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這個政府在那裡兩個政策在那裡打架啦所以說這個我們的托育服務法還需要這麼嚴格嗎還沒立法嘛 還在審嘛 在協商嘛通通都開放那這個道理對本國提供托育服務的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8093.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8106.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這麼高強度的管制要求這麼多要受訓考證照登記審核要層層把關才能夠提供托育服務但是外籍幫傭連語言溝通都有問題沒有相關訓練資格訓練然後本國人資格門檻被檢查被高度要求外籍幫傭通通都不用這個這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8117.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8122.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這樣子我從來沒有聽過說本籍的比外籍的還更嚴格的同時大家在說外籍比本籍管得更嚴格我們現在回到本籍的管得嚴外籍的管得寬這沒有違反兒童最佳利益嗎還要重研立法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8142.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8147.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
對不對光是顧小孩是這樣子那再來講說這個在這種狀況裡面性別平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8155.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8180.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
你們在講我剛剛講說事實上我們台灣整體社會包括政府把公共照顧服務往前推這麼多已經推這麼多了我們也希望透過公共政策繼續解決家務勞動還有育兒性別不平等的問題那政府也當時一路走來都被迫但也始終是站在往前推進的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8182.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8196.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
結果現在你開放了這種外籍幫傭你不願意再繼續改善你的公共政策然後面對資源的制度人力多方面缺失的問題你用這種病急亂投醫的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8198.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8212.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
委員公共托育或者是托育的政策我們還是大力的正在做你現在選擇一個最便宜的最階級化的最可能產生剝削的然後最不願意致力於改善公共照顧服務品質配出它的包括公共托育的部分這都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8218.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8237.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
一直在做甚至更大力的那我問你那我們一直在你也說我們在做那個長照啊然後你一直開放這個外籍看護啊有外籍看護我還需要去使用你的長照嗎我還在乎你的長照嗎我有家庭幫傭顧小孩我還需要你的公共托育嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8240.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8259.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們訪談到很多他表達需要外籍幫助他一樣會把小孩送托我現在跟你講就是說他一樣會把小孩送托當政府選擇一種最階級化最可能產生剝削的做法而對於不願致力於改善公共你現在這樣是有多少買得起的人才能夠這樣子呢買不起的人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8264.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8276.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以我們講公共照顧要服務的其實正是那個買不起的所以公共照顧他的品質要普及化他的價格要可敬性為什麼要可敬性 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8278.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8299.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
他的服務的可敬性是大家都知道因為因為一般人沒有辦法有那種能力嘛而你現在這個開放家庭幫兇也不是一般人有辦法的啦這是在鞏固有錢人才能享有的育兒喘息的特權如果在這裡我們不要講特權抱歉我更正我講錯了這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8302.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8324.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
鞏固就是說有錢才買得起的走回頭路有錢的自己買工沒錢的自求多福這是家庭自行買單那我們是想一直以來都把國家把政府拉進來來減少女性的家務的負擔為什麼不是在制度面上設計說你應該有一個設計男性共同來參與家務然後或者是說對盤點0到12歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8330.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8346.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
各公共托育客戶照顧資源減少資源落差改進這個服務品質或是我們一直在講說把育嬰假變成這個家庭那個照顧變成照顧假然後開放到8歲然後一小時你們有了但你們現在只到3歲嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8347.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8364.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們這部分在研議要擴大那也是讓更多的男性其實已經投入了這部分的做法跟政策我們一直在有錢推進那甚至是推出完善的有薪家庭照顧假現在來了現在就你們第一個不願意重新分配第二個政府的資源不願意再投入所以你現在選一個最簡單的有錢開放有錢的可以買社會的反彈壓力小 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8369.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8392.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
政府的資源你也不願意投入啊然後呢人家需求就會下降如果開放二十幾萬人可以請家庭這個搬佣他可能對於育兒的這個辛苦或是家務的辛苦他就分擔了那反彈的聲音就降低了要求公共政策提供的聲浪也會下降所以在這裡是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8393.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8415.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
你們直接開放讓高收入的家庭直接向全球南方國家購買廉價的勞動力啦所以這個照顧私有化的手段來規避照顧資源分配不均導致的社會不平等 這個就是 這個是團體認為的啦所謂的不負責任啦 不負責任啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8416.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8433.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
真的是不負責任 連在友善職場的部分包括製度的部分我們現在也在擴大正在研議以日傾的育嬰留庭需要往前再推進包括資源的投入也更多包括托育的資源包括企業托育的部分我們也都是更大力在做這部分不會改變而且只會做的更多這個方向不會改變的開放到8歲1小時計算我不是跟你講我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8444.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8463.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
育嬰留庭合併計算進來我們目前就是希望能夠朝三歲的部分我們就希望現在正在研議朝擴大的方向在研議這事情我已經在幾個幾週前其實我也跟大家報告過了目前就是往這個方向在研議中那這個要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8466.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8483.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我現在就告訴你你們在這種狀況裡面一直研議你們所有東西都是研議包括我剛剛講的衝擊你們也是研議你還沒上任以前也是在研議然後現在什麼研議這麼多年通通都沒有你現在在告訴我們說我們會繼續研議我們朝向更大幅的開放沒有啊你們現在的我剛剛講的這個包括已日請的這個這個照顧我們要一小時啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8494.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8503.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
整個總體時數沒有變 天數沒有變價格也沒有增加預算那就讓你開放成幾個小時 你都不願意了 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8504.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8531.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我認真不是不認真我們是一步一步再往前做對嘛所以我們會把它擴大讓這個照顧的友善程度可以大幅改善的你們是牛步話然後讓家庭自己有錢家庭自己去買工沒錢的自求多福的馬上開放我們沒有牛步話目前一日請的部分才上路兩個月我們就一直在研議把它擴大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8532.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8535.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們呼籲了幾年啦第一個年紀要到幾歲因為很多職場的滑坡勞動力滑坡就是經常經常小孩不是只有讓他長大讓他吃飯讓他讀書要陪伴或是生病了要到學校去有薪家庭照顧假你給不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8554.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8582.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你們雇主也不願意負擔政府不可能編列這個預算那我們就把這個育嬰留庭的價格整個偏數都沒有動讓他友善到可以8歲然後以小時為計你們通通在講我們繼續研議你們說你們開放到天了這不是繼續研議王維生在那裡啦他知道這樣一路走來已經很多年了很多年了不叫牛布化那叫什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8583.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8594.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
目前上路才兩三個月 那是我們推動很多年以後你才正式回應我們的第一次回應在你上路以前我們推動很多年啊所以我們接下來 政府是被推動的 不是政府主動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8604.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8619.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
希望能夠讓這個政策的擴大跟彈性都能夠再往前進這個我們非常非常認真的看待這個數據我們很務實的跟你講會提升婦女勞動參與率然後很務實跟你講不增加雇主的支出總時數沒有變彈性化 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8622.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8628.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我就不曉得你們就是在還試辦的時候你還沒上任試辦的時候黃偉生還找那個輪班三班制的去試辦還失敗因為三班制一個蘿蔔一個坑當然失敗那是因為你上任我承認因為你上任所以你push他要先試辦再試辦一次友善的直接上路現在不是試辦現在已經正式上路那現在是以天為計 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8647.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8669.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
是 已經正式上路了 而且成效很不錯那我們 當然喔 有需求喔那我們跟你講 更友善 年齡要擴散 擴大然後呢 時數就是以小時為基我們有往這擴大的方向 目前正在規劃跟研議這個東西只是一小小步 還用自己的育嬰流挺的價和天數 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8671.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8696.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那個只是我們勞工自己的天數你現在這一個你就在拿我們勞工裡面的來給我邀功不需要只是希望你們彈性化但我們希望的是政府應該做的是更多而更多並不是你台放外籍幫傭那個是有錢人才買得起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8698.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8705.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那個是家庭自己買工沒有買不起的人買不起的人這個政策有什麼可敬性 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8706.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8734.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
買不起的人 這個政策與我有何干啊文稅不同的對象其實就像來你看 你看這個 我跟你講這個對誰最有利喔仲介業 來馬上我的朋友就LINE來了我的朋友馬上就LINE來了仲介第一時間開放宣誓政策的時候仲介打電話來來你看這個放大這個怎麼沒有喔 最後一個啦我今天接到電話咧家裡有12歲小孩可以請家庭家事照顧外勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8738.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8762.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
馬上仲介一一打電話給有12歲以下的家庭的父母很多人接到很多人接到仲介等著要接所以我們第一時間就回覆他沒有人要照顧老人了沒有人要照顧老人了怎麼辦仲度失能的老人怎麼辦大家都想我要家庭幫傭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8765.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8775.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那外籍義工不願意照顧老人 怎麼辦這不是你的業務 這衛福部的業務這個沒關係 炒價也不是你們承擔是那個家裡面的僱主要承擔所以現在是國家怎樣 雙手一攤有錢的去衛衛 用這個就好了好 謝謝好 謝謝淑芬委員跟政宣告待會那個廖偉祥委員質詢完畢後我們休息五分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8802.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8824.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
謝謝主席剛剛這個淑芬委員其實她在探討這個議題我覺得的確是一個值得你可以在另外排個時間好好的演繹我想這個今天難得有兩個這麼大的部會的部長都來我相信很多人想問的事情很多所以這個建議主席你可以之後再排一天那我想要先請衛福部時部長來有請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8830.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8857.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
廖委員好部長好今天講這個長照其實是蠻重要因為我國已經進入高齡化社會所以我這個長照體系常常面臨人力增長幅度追不上需求的狀況這跟昨天這跟昨天很多相關的這個醫事人員或是這個需求都有相關性那我想問一下這個幾副標準有關於長照這個實務上面臨幾副標準是有多久沒有調整了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8861.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8884.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個應該是每年都是在做一些新增沒有 相關的工會跟我說從上路過來到現在其實已經有九年沒有完全的沒有全方面的去調整過應該是說應該是這樣講就是跟這個健保是一樣啦就是有提案的時候那我們就調整那不然的話它是隨著那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8887.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8897.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
部長我跟你說其實有很多這個居服人員居服聯盟策略聯盟相關的工會其實都有反應長年沒有調整了那這幾年物價漲了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8898.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8918.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
也漲了很多喔那這個部分是不是可以儘速去全面的檢討和調整服務給付的價格而且他們希望因為沒有定期的去檢討這個機制常常導致他們反映了你們也沒有沒有想要調整或是認真的去研究要怎麼調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8918.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8946.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以這個部分我要把這個意見民間的意見帶給你因為這個需求變得越來越多但是人員的待遇也是一樣並沒有獲得提升對這個可以理解因為這個我們在這個健保方面它是有一個總額的成長率那成長率裡面會去考慮到CPI去調整它每年的幅度那但是這個長照的給付呢它是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8947.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8964.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個時值時付1.1塊錢的方式在操作那所以如果這個CPI我們可以考慮說如果你這個CPI的變動達到多少或者是定期多久來做一個檢討對 我覺得定期這件事情是要做的好不好部長可不可以答應本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8965.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8978.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
趕快去研議跟相關的工會我請那個創造師來討論這個就是我本席的具體要求很明顯啦在這個簡報上第一個就是我要爭取這個看是不是依物價指數你每兩年檢討一次和調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8979.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9002.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
然後第二個是希望也趕快去建立所謂的造福員的分級跟進修的機制這個部分我也希望可以鼓勵新人也可以讓資深造福員願意久任所以部長這兩個意見我要代表造福或是長照相關的作業人員來跟你爭取好不好您可不可以回去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9003.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9024.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好 這個我們演繹一下你可不可以給我一個月之內給我明確的答覆你們的時間表是什麼好 我們來演繹一下看看這個如何來融入到隨著這個物價的檢討機制部長 那你可不可以給我一個時間表好不好 你可不可以給我一個時間表好不好就是說你這個演繹的時間表是什麼這兩個具體的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9030.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9057.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 那就一個月一個月內給本席因為我還會再找這些相關的工會來討論好不好好那再來因為這個長照我也是進入細節來問部長在過去幾年其實全台的居扶機構的違規採取 查核不足甚至有很多系統資訊串聯不足的問題甚至有導致一些弊案的產生譬如說長照基金可能被詐領等等的我想要問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9058.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9084.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個你們的監察院之前有要求你們做建全國財閥統一平台你們建了嗎這個平台已經有了在這個今年會去完成系統的開發啦大概在年底之前就可以了你們現在已經有了嘛對不對監察院去年的九月有說過你們要去做這個平台所以你說已經有了是不是我請那個市長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9084.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9113.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
跟委員報告因為監察院去年有下這樣的一個意見那我們去年的那個新增的經費排不進去所以我們是在今年今年的新的案件裡面有把它放進去那整個按照期程的規劃在今年年底之前可以完成年底你確定嗎你要真的要到年底你先看一下其實你們現在就有所謂的裁罰平台了現在這個裁罰平台是連結地方政府而且是依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9113.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9142.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
依法要公開的好依法要公開是不是好我再進來給你看這是你們有的所以我們進來看一下幾個亂象你看看你光台北市政府你就設定了兩個連結然後台東的點進去就只是他們的新聞資訊頁根本也不是財閥網頁然後我們再看一下高雄的高雄市政府的點進去只有五筆資料然後這五筆資料有三筆它是違反食安法的違反食品廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9144.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9159.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
違規的還有時評宣傳廣告不實的那至今跟長照有關的裁罰公告案件也只有兩件喔所以請問一下你們在做什麼東西這個這個資訊平台請問食安也是你們的這個平台的公佈範圍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9160.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9180.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那個可能連結有跑掉那跟委員報告當時我們希望就是因為案件會不斷的出來所以我們期待的是我們連結到地方的裁罰的一個專區那直接都是那你沒有去督導你好像是沒有督導我我隨便點了好幾個都是亂七八糟的根本就沒有根本就沒有所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9181.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9200.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
真的需要的資訊在裡面是 有跟委員報告因為昨天我們其實是試著上我們的專區那我們這邊非常完整的其實都是長照的那總共有67案沒有 我剛剛才進了你們的我們剛才進了你的網站點進去就是現在這個樣子好 那我們會回去馬上這個已經是能力的問題了這個資訊的整理有很大的問題好 我們改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9206.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9231.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
對部長你知道這個問題嗎我想這個大概是過度性質的因為真正的會在年底之前完成那個那個才是真正完整的部長這是理由部長這是理由我跟你講這個東西你們要負督導責任你不是丟給地方政府他隨便舔然後你好像都不關你的事大家是依賴你中央政府的網頁看資訊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9233.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9255.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好所以我要跟你分享有兩個縣市一個是台中市一個是嘉義縣的社會局喔其實他們在公告的表格格式上面至少也做得很好一個是台中一個是嘉義縣他們違反了什麼法令違規者是誰他一看就知道那你們是不是應該要給各個縣市政府一個統一的表格統一的格式呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9259.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9273.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個跟委員說明我們未來在開發這個系統的時候就會讓它比較有標準式的現在這個只是急救章先讓它有連結的方式部長過渡企業應該也有所作為那我問你你建構系統要多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9275.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9295.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個是配搭我們的系統因為這個整個是我們的照管系統所以這個只是裡面的一項資料好部長我跟你講坦白講現在各縣市裁罰跟公告的案件數真的也沒有到那麼多我們有去查很多縣市甚至是一件都沒有那也根據你們回傳給我的資料過去五年加總起來是78件 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9297.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9317.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
要公開的可能還更少所以到底有沒有認真在追蹤我先不問的情況之下在這麼少的資料的情況之下你這個過渡期應該一張表格就可以搞定了還需要去外包什麼資訊工程嗎那當然你說你要整合其他的功能OK但是你這個過渡的部分你應該這樣處理就可以了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9318.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9345.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
跟委員說明一下大概這中間有一些資訊上的落差這78件只是在申報這個長照的幾戶上的虛符報案件而已那當然還有一些長照機構的一些違法的樣態那個都是在地方去裁罰所以長照師會再去彙整其他的這個違法樣態把它彙整起來這78件只是指的是在虛符報的案件而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9345.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9366.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
是啊,但是你整個加起來會有多少?你這個同意表格應該就是做得出來了。這個可能要大家了解一下才知道。我未來是希望他查的時候是比較能夠一次性的,現在都是用連結的方式。對,所以你很亂,然後再來就是每個,你們沒有去督導。那所以我要再詢問一下,在這些裁罰裡面,其實連一件主動公告詐領案件的資訊都沒有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9367.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9391.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個是很嚴重了吧 這個應該要公告了吧就根據你們提供給我的資料喔屏東縣裁罰的案件近四年有十七 二 二 七件就是十七件 兩件 兩件 七件那你知道你們的裁罰網頁裡面屏東的部分怎麼寫的嗎你們知道嗎 你有去看嗎 你沒讀到對不對屏東寫的是零件喔 屏東的地方政府給你的是零件 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9392.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9415.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那甚至在台南的這個乍領五千四百萬的廠商呢民眾也不知道到底是哪一間所以我想要說的事情是這個公告標準在民眾的認知裡就是有問題的那你們內部有資訊流通的機制嗎或者是如果你在台南這個乍領了五千四百萬的這個外部廠商如果還或者是高雄的這個長照機構AB表 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9417.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9438.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
領的這些社會的詐領案在你們的平台上是完全沒有公告的而且站在民眾的立場今天不管詐領登錄不實或各種這些重大爭議其實只要未達公告門檻那其實你們而且你們資訊也沒有真的落實登錄上去其實民眾要怎麼辨別這個風險他怎麼有安心的說讓自己家中的長輩去接受這個服務的單位有沒有違規的紀錄而且甚至你現在的這個狀況就跟昨天我們討論的有點像 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9445.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9462.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
一家機構 特約單位他如果這個長照人員在A縣市被查到有虛報有這些問題 相關問題的時候B縣市是不能夠馬上查到的所以你就可能導致後面的事情發生所以我剛剛說的事情是你現在說年底要建好這個系統其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9464.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9478.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你們這個是推託因為你在這個過程中你這一年發生了任何事情你們可以負責嗎所以這一年你其實剛剛我像我說的你就是告訴地方政府你的表格要哪些內容回報回來的時候你要有人去審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9479.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9486.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
是不是可以做到至少你短期可以做到這件事情跟委員說明先跟委員釐清幾個觀念我們長福法裡面母法有授權裁罰的樣態才可以在我們現在要求他公開讓民眾可以查這我知道這個是前提但是我剛剛已經講到很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9499.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9502.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那您舉的這個屏東的那個樣態他並不在我們的財閥的這個長福法授權可以去公開這樣的一個單位所以剛剛委員關心到說有一些這個業者我只是舉幾個例子給你聽但是我剛剛已經把你按進去這些連結看過了所以你現在是要用這個理由來說所以你們的平台做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9520.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9541.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我們沒有說我們只是說現階段因為裁罰是地方的權責所以我們其實是希望裁罰是地方的權責但是資訊透明是你的責任你的得到責任也是需要及時的如果地方政府都要透過送到中央中央再來公佈的話事實上會有時效的問題你還是沒有回答我的問題我剛剛說你給他們統一的表單格式然後他們報回來你要去督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9548.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9561.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這樣子你聽得懂我的意思嗎因為我感覺你一直在找很多理由喔是是我理解委員的意思就是你委員希望我們能夠做得更精準能夠更完善那你說讓他們回報問題是好你說你依法讓他們回報結果他回來給你一個連結難道你都不用查嗎難道你都不用去看他連結到底合不合理嗎那每一個縣市回來的表的不同然後資訊還有這種違反食品安全的違反食安法那是你要的資訊嗎當然不是都不是對不對那你跟我扯這個對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9577.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9599.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
其實一剛開始連結都是正確的那我相信是地方政府可能又有一些異動然後沒有讓我們知道所以早自這個連結發生現在委員看到的這種樣態那我們會來改善好部長所以我要表達的事情是其實長照需求越來越高那今年的預算也高達了1100多億但是現在發生的就是管理漏洞也會越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9600.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9619.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因為根本預算你根本在執行量當然就是需求很大所以你在這個人力資源管理上面甚至是你連這個管理這樣子資訊的表格都出了問題有人去造假就能夠領錢變成名副其實的Excel Pay他就可以隨便上網中央跟你申請然後到地方再另外拿錢炸領了五千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9620.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9633.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個我相信大多數在這個長照領域服務的人都是本於愛心本於熱情而且都是兢兢業業在做這些事情但是你現在管理不當就是讓不孝業者有機會去鑽漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9636.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9653.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
請部長在年底出來前你現在馬上請你們去做這件事情把這個資訊的漏洞都把它補起來然後也要讓跨縣市的整合垂直整合都要可以清除資訊透明可不可以這個資訊的揭露的部分我們來這個檢討改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9655.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9672.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以我第一個要你給我就是具體的承諾一個是一個月內可以上線可搜尋的全國裁法查詢功能的完善的這個資訊然後要有一個檢討的配套機制也就是說它上線的時候是不是你在資訊平台上就要有一個log說有更新的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9672.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9690.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以你就要去核對他給的資料對不對這個在資訊上很簡單它不是一件很難的事第二個是你三個月內要趕快建立這個跨縣市的裁罰預警的通報機制跨縣市裁罰的時候你應該讓地方政府彼此知道不要A縣市罰了B縣市不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9691.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9708.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
第三個是你們在這個本會期前也可以提出你這個所謂長照集合人力的補足方案因為剛剛所謂的很多問題是集合的問題對不對有人可能通報了你們沒有辦法集合沒有足夠人力集合所以導致有這樣的漏洞所以這個部分希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9709.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9730.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
包含昨天我講的兒少的質詢你們CRC的採訪平台這些資訊其實是同一件事這顯示衛福部在資訊管理治理上面的能力是有待加強我們不要講得太難聽你們資訊治理能力真的要加強好不好好最後我還是要邀請一下我們的這個請石部長回座我要請一下洪森漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9739.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9744.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
六人好部長好部長這個最後我還是要請教一下部長其實針對現在重啟核能成為討論的議題話題 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9749.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9776.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
好議題熱點那有不少的學者投書投書指出因為非核家園是民進黨一貫的方向那核能的人才伴隨現在AI產業興起然後能源重新這個檢討那世界爭搶也造成了台灣核能的相關專業人才出走或者轉行現在要重新培育迫切急需加速喔甚至投書也提出勞動部應該建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9778.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9798.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這個核能級的特殊技術人才培訓專案所以這部分呢勞動部也有不可或缺的角色包含第一個是技術標準的提升譬如說現有的焊接啦配管啦非破壞檢測等國家技術式的檢定那可能需要針對所謂核能級的高規格需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9798.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9810.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
跟核安會合作開發更高等的培訓課程這是第一個技術標準提升第二個是人才缺口的補足面對核能人才這個斷層勞動部需要透過執訓體系加速培養機電還有儀控等基礎工程人力來才能支撐核電廠的興建或者是重啟工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9820.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9839.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
第三個是移工與專業外籍人才的審核勞動部負責核發外國專業人才的工作許可若需要引進國外的核能工程團隊勞動部需要配合經濟部簡化或優化相關的申請流程請問一下部長你對這個方向有做規劃或研議的打算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9840.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9870.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
根本說明關於這些相關的這個專業技能的人才當然我們都我們當然願意來跟目的世界主管機關當然看他們有沒有相關的類似的需求有沒有我們要配合協助的地方那這也不是只是在核能的部分而是綜合的這些專技的人才我們都會跟目的世界主管機關來做討論看他們有沒有這個需求因為有些人才的訓練他有他一定的體系跟他一定的這個相關的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9870.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9887.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
副部長配合是被動的現在我們看到賴清德總統願意起義來歸檢討能源政策那你們除了被動配合你們勞動部有沒有主動規劃有沒有相關的時間表因為培訓人才並不是現在說要就馬上有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9887.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9904.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這個培訓人才是三到五年你等到定案還來得及嗎會有一些專業的會有一些專業的會有一些專業的人才其實是會要來自目的世界主管機關提出他們的需求比方說勞動部絕對不會去培訓醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9908.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9936.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
所以我剛剛提的那三件事情都跟勞動部有關喔所以委員我說的是說醫師有他這個養成的體專業養成的體系這個部分嗎那我當然可以來跟目的世界主管局官討論他們有沒有在人才需求這個人才上面他們要怎麼來去做克服這部分可以討論那所以我想這個是國家發展國家安全還有能源安全的相關重要的議題這個社會大家都很關心喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9936.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9955.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以我才會問出這樣的問題請你們回去跟相關部會去演繹去問他們有沒有需要你趕快提出這些培訓的包含技術提升標準還有包含人才缺口有沒有需要補足包含著移工跟專業外籍人才有沒有需要審核這三件事情要提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9956.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9980.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
像這樣子的專業的特定的專業的領域的確就是要是目的社會主管評估他的需求包括他人才養成的方式那這個部分我們第一個會尊重目的社會主管機關那如果有他們有需要我們幫忙的地方我們當然願意來去做我們可以做的所以部長會願意配合他們就是培養他們提出這個相關的需求然後他們提出你就會配合我就是我剛舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9982.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10003.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
醫生可能很多地方現在也覺得沒有我只是問說那如果今天經濟部會今天經濟部和河安會需要這些人才他主動跟你提你配合嗎當然我們可以一起討論一起討論那你會配合嗎我們會一起討論看需求跟彼此的分工所以意思就是說你身為勞動部長你會配合他們然後彼此分工跨部會之間本來就有很多業務需要一起討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10005.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10033.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以我是針對這個問題就是核能專業人才的部分跨部會有很多議題我們會開放性的討論謝謝部長這個主席剛剛有一點差別待遇剛剛淑芬委員講了半個多小時我想要跟你說一下說部長 紅部長社會大眾其實也很想了解當初的反核少年跟現在沒有立場願意配合行政院的勞動部長哪一位才是真正的紅身漢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10040.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10056.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好也麻煩我們的衛福部針對於我們剛剛講這個造福源跟薪資福利給給支付的這個議題我們也開過記者會請衛福部要盡快回覆那接下來我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10777.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10780.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
現在繼續開會來處理臨時提案有疑案請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10787.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10812.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
鑑於我國已邁入高齡化社會長期照顧需求持續攀升為現行制度對於勞工應長照安排之支持措施仍顯不足特別是在照顧初期制制度銜接與經濟支持方面尚有明顯缺口為強化勞工與家庭照顧責任與就業之間之平衡並降低因照顧而退出職場之風險原有推動長期長照安排假事辦計畫之必要建請勞動部衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10813.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10827.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
延禮長照安排假試辦計劃並應於指定期限內提出具體方案內容應包含適用對象申請條件給假期間薪資補貼機制及行政配套措施以利後續制度化推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10828.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10849.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
另為使政策設計更貼近實務需求並兼顧各方意見與提案通過後請主管機關於兩週內邀集民間團體專家學者及相關利害關係人召開事辦計劃研商會議針對適用對象薪資補貼比例企業負擔分攤方式及財務來源等重要議題進行充分討論凝聚共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10850.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10869.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
眾上建請主管機關積極推動本案並於規劃過程中納入多元利害關係人意見以建立兼顧勞工權益企業負擔及制度永續之長照支持制度提案委員林月琴 聯署委員王振旭 劉建國宣讀完畢好 請問本案行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10875.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10895.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那个跟赵伟报告那关于这个提案我们在这个第二段跟第三段的部分我们其实是有一些修改的意见了那我们是建议稍稍修改成建井劳动部和卫福部研拟长照安排加事办计划评估可行性那并因三个月 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10896.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10921.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
内提出评估方案内容应包括适用对象申请条件给他几件薪资补贴机制行政配套措施等以利后续制度化的推动这是第二段的部分第三段是建议我念字是令为令谓使政策设计更贴近实务需求并兼顾各方意见于提案通过后请主管机关 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10923.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10945.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
评估过程因收集民间团体专家学者及厉害相关厉害相关人然后适用对象薪资补贴比例企业负担分担方式及财务来源等重要议题意见那重这是第三段这样没有有一点修正意见可不可以请也可以请赵伟这边来确认对 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10964.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10974.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好 那因為這提案是我提案 那就修正通過臨時提案全部處理完畢 接下來繼續詢答 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10998.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11016.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
本席想請教一下我們從4月13號起家中有一名未滿12歲的兒童就可以申請外籍幫佣我想請教你們這樣的一個政策會宣布這樣的一個政策你們是已經討論很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11019.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11042.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那可能也許會有一些你們需要的一些配套措施嗎那有這樣的一個想法你們是討論多久然後才推出這樣的一個政策出來其實從去年去年其實就已經開始研議了那包括我們跟衛福部跟行政院其實也一直在做這些相關的研議的討論那這個會影響的家庭有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11043.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11057.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
先跟委員說明第一個是以目前的這個開放的這個適用的有申請資格的是144萬戶可是並不是有申請資格就會來申請那麼你們預計會有多少人會來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11063.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11082.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
第一個是其實因為的確都會涉及到這些家庭他的需求狀態也包括他的經濟負擔是也包括涉及到他家裡有沒有空間所以不是那麼容易有一個公式可以套進去說可以有一個具體的數字那你們預計你們自己應該我們認為的確因為現在幫用是2000的確會比這個數字應該會增加不少這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11087.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11103.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那我們現在能夠做的事情是我們會先把相關的資源就是說假設會有受到比方說本國的工作者他需要我們多幫助的話這個就業的或者是擴大他勞務市場的計畫我們會跟衛福部一起先來把它準備好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11103.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11122.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好那部長就是之前我們也有提到就是說80歲免巴適量表那現在我們又開放這個外籍幫傭那這個會不會排擠到就是說我之前一直在提到就是說可能一些家裡面真的需要的這個重症或者是急重症的這樣的一個這個有這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11124.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11144.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
家庭的會不會受到排擠那部長當然我記得我是上一次有特別有問過你那這一次我們又放寬這個外籍幫傭的這個部分那我想請教就是說你們會去評估那到底這個外籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11145.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11164.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
移工來到台灣之後這個外籍幫傭或者是外籍看護工那他會不會去選擇他的雇主那他會選擇他比較好照顧的嗎跟文說明其實在去年這個舊法46條修正後我們其實有研議的一個六個方向的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11166.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11180.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那在8月的時候上路確實經過這半年的時間半年多的時間來看的話其實我們看到我們的配套確實是有效果的配套的目的當然就是希望能夠減少過去大家擔心的那個所謂器重則輕的這個狀況我們其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11182.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11203.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
因為大家會擔心這件事情所以我們透過一些方式讓重症可以優先包括是現在我們這個如果這個外籍看護他他這個要媒合的時候我們其實是14天內是優先給重症的雇主來去做登記承接你這個外籍幫傭的部分因為你有這一次有針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11205.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11221.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
家裡面就是特殊的這個家庭那也有做一些放寬嘛對不對那這個的話一般家庭跟比較特殊的這種部分你們會有去做區分嗎就像你說重症的可能會優先那這個的部分你們也會有這樣子一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11222.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11239.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
也會我們在比較是特殊需求跟弱勢的家庭我說弱勢的指的是他可能是單親的家庭特勤的家庭或者是有家長身障或者是他的小孩有寒病少療發展遲緩可能之類的我們把他的救安費給降低到兩千塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11240.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11257.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那在我們的這個行政的審核上面我們也有專案的人員會把他提前優先來做審理那也包括在相關的這個人力假設進入到承接轉換承接的時候重症的家庭或特殊需求家庭我們其實也是讓他是優先承接的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11257.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11282.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好那我想請教就是說你們這個政策出來之後你們有去評估好就是說會對原本在這個職場好我們講的這個外籍放寬這個外籍幫傭那原本在做保姆或者是做家庭幫傭的本國勞工會有多大的影響你們有做這樣的一個評估嗎有跟文說明第一個是我們認為可能對於既有的托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11283.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11309.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
或者是這個家事服務的本國的人員其實如果我們都沒有任何配套可能的確會對他們可能服務的時數會有一點影響可能會有一點影響所以這是為什麼我們其實才要你一個配套然後包括我們也編列會編列資源來去協助他們擴大他們現在勞務市場包括我們會設我們會有規劃跟一個跟他們的這個媒合的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11310.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11325.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那衛福部現在應該就有這個托育員員的媒合的平台他們應該會擴大的來進行可是現在的媒合平台不是就直接交給仲介去處理嗎目前我們如果要聘僱外籍現在我指的是本國給本國的工作者的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11326.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11351.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
这是给本国工作者的部分他们其实会有媒合的平台他们也会扩大那劳动部这边我们也会对本国的家事的服务员的部分其实我们也会设计这个媒合的平台有一个服务的专区让他们目的是让他们扩大他们可以服务的劳务市场是好我们也希望就是说当然我相信你们就是说你们这个政策推动出来是要补我们的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11353.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11377.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
勞力不足的部分是這樣子嗎你們有去做評估嗎其實跟原本你這樣的一個政策你應該是要就是補這個我們原本的可能本勞他對於這個家事這個可能不想去參與這樣或者是從事這樣的一個家事的一個工作那是要去補充我們勞力不足的這個部分那你們確實是有去評估過有 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11379.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11400.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我跟委員說明其實我們跟很多他其實潛在可能有需要的家庭我們其實也跟他做訪談我自己親自也訪談那的確我舉個例子比方說夜間夜間是比較不容易找到本國的工作者來協助的那也有很多他其實雙薪家庭的老公 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11401.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11422.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
他跟我們反映說他其實晚上有這樣的需求比方說他可能晚上他有跟我們表達說他希望能夠有他自己想要進修或者是他有夜班或者是他其實晚上會有兼差的接案他其實晚上也有這樣的需求可是晚上的部分夜間的部分就是很難找到本國的工作者來去協助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11423.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11438.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那也會有一些剛才講到特進的家庭他的需求是特別高的所以他也會特別需要希望有人可以來幫他做家務上面的分擔的部分所以我們其實在這幾個月裡面就是針對這需求的部分進行相對應的這些評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11441.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11467.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們一方面也不希望就是說因為我們有放寬這個外籍幫傭的這個條件之後然後去衝擊到本國勞工的這個工作機會那另外一方面就是說又是另外一個層次的就是說原本這個勞動市場會不會因為我們有這樣子的一個外籍幫傭那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說也會讓這個本籍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11468.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11484.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
本級的我們的勞工好的這個市場能夠再更加的一個擴大更多的機會好那我想請教就是說我們放寬這個外籍幫傭然後來到台灣那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說讓本 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11485.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11503.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
本國的勞工的這個工作機會能夠比較大原本他可能從事這樣的一個工作的這個工作機會更大那我想請教就是原本如果這個你們有其中有一項就是說你們有相關的配套那其中有一項就是確保家務工作品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11505.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11531.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那你們有說這個基本就是要這個幫庸那就培訓或者是育兒指導員到宅指導服務技巧好這是其中的一項配套嗎是好但是比較是基本的對對那我想請教就是說這個主責單位到底是是地方政府或者是衛福部這邊是衛福部那你們可以做到這麼吸到到宅沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11532.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11554.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我跟委員報告啦因為我們少子女化我們現在知道現在很多新手爸媽他們現在目前其實很需要有一些倒載的指導這個我們是學日本我跟委員報告他的倒載指導主要是就是說他從孕婦產期第三期第四期就開始進入做一些相關諮商到時候你要做嫁來你要做嫁來其實是說你孩子你現在已經在做了還是阿伯未來我們現在開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11561.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11590.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
現在開始 那個經費就是我們從社安網的那個經費來處理那一般的民眾他要怎麼申請他現在就是說你要申請那個各項預約津貼的時候我們就請說問啊問說政府現在有提供這個服務我們現在是委託各地方政府所以你也是4月13號以後才會去推動這個我們現在目前應該現在就已經開始了嘛對不對 到來之後那只是說對象會擴大因為他現在比較是弱勢的有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11591.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11619.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
若是個案的需求我們現在是倒載指導的部分在市安網那未來的話我想我們在少子女化對策裡頭會擴大到一般的家庭也跟委員報告我們現在目前就是說我們也希望就是說保姆因為他都有年輕的這個經驗現在來做這個育兒指導員非常非常好所以說我們這個保姆的行業勞動部兩邊我們密切密切配合讓我們的這一個我們的保姆他可以有更多元的一個整個就業選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11620.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11640.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好我我希望就是說不要因為放寬外籍這個這個幫傭然後衝擊到本國勞工的這個工作機會這是我們絕對放在很優先的事情所以我們不管不只是計劃包括相關的經費是那我們都會盡量的來去做協助是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11640.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11666.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好那另外就是說部長以前我們都在講說0到6歲國家一起養嘛就是孩子那這樣的一個政策的一個轉變就是可能這個國家政策子女是國家要跟我們這個我們人民一起來努力一起來協助的啦那這樣子的話我們現在就是說放寬這個外籍幫傭好像就是說把這個育兒的這個部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11667.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11688.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
轉到私領域就是說好像就是把這個責任轉嫁到就是自己去處理這種感覺就是說整個政策是不是有點轉彎不是我們並沒有轉彎我想衛福部也很清楚這個我們的包括我們整體的這個托育的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11689.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11703.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
包括其實就像我們也在推動這個職場的彈性化其實都是希望更大程度的用政府的制度去支持這些可能需要育兒或有家務需求的這個家庭那 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11704.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11725.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
以勞動部來說我們其實也是在幾個幾週前三週前我們其實也是強化一個企業托育的政策把它提出來就是希望鼓勵更多的企業投入到托育設施裡面去投資到托育設施企業投入到托育設施政府就大力的來支持企業所以這都是在擴大我們整體的托育資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11726.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11742.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
公共托育資源的部分我想這部分我們不會鬆手而且包括衛福部包括整個行政院我們都還這還是非常非常重要的方向的對沒有改變好那我們希望就是說今天最主要我是希望就是說我們放寬這樣的一個政策之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11743.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11765.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
絕對不可以去衝擊到我們本國勞工的一個工作機會不論是保姆也好或者是家事家庭幫傭本勞的一個家庭幫傭我覺得不要去衝擊到這樣因為確實你外籍幫傭他的薪資當然是比本國勞工的薪資還低也許他就會轉到 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11768.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11796.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
有资格他可能就会请这个外籍帮佣这个我觉得一般的常情应该都是这样子然后我要请一个较熟的也不一定其实我们其实问下来也不一定因为其实因为我们做了一些访谈其实他们蛮多跟我们说其实他有这个家务帮佣的需求可是他还是会把小孩送托因为现在托育中心跟托育机构它的功能其实很多包括对小孩的早期的发展 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11796.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11810.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
包括其實對於一些安全的保護健康的部分其實這都是現在很多推特的功能這都不一定都是能夠這個交房佣可以幫得上的事情所以他們都說他即便需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11811.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11838.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
外籍保養 可是他還是會把他送托蠻多都跟我們表達那當然就是說這個我們也要持續去評估啦這個會不會造成什麼樣的影響我希望就是衛福部跟勞動部這邊都要去持續的去評估然後去看到底是不是真的會對於整個就業市場會有一些影響當然 我們會一直隨時觀察然後我們我想我們接下來的工作就是把配套跟支持的方案給做足好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11841.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11844.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
好 謝謝黃秀芳委員發言 接下來請圖全吉委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請我們衛福部我們次長來 請李次 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11860.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11875.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
好 次長那我們來討論一下我們針對現在因為我們國內少子女化的問題那我們看得到我們112年跟113年我們的人口出生率新生兒 112年 113年還有13萬多 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11879.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11902.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那我們到114年喔只剩10萬7千多那等於說整整就下降了2萬多個新生兒那針對這一部分我看我們是不是有針對這一部分是不是我們有提出少子女化對策計畫2.0好像有有編列的7.99億的預算對不對針對我們少子女化 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11906.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11920.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
國民年金這一部分我說針對國民年金這一部分國民年金保險生育補助生育補助那邊沒錯啦就是我們國民年金保險針對生育補助這部分編了7.99億 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11924.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11938.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那我們看一下其實我們針對生育補助我們有勞保有生育補助然後軍公教人員也有生育補助那扣除這些的部分就是我們國民年金保險的生育給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11940.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11956.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
然後經過我們也看了一下那我們7.99億我們現在針對這一部分我們從今年1月1號開始針對受理民眾我們生育給附加生育補助我們要給他合計補助10萬對沒錯合計補助10萬這我們鼓勵鼓勵大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11961.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11966.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
對 就是可以申請到10萬所以我們7.99億如果申請到10萬那算起來就是7,990人可以申請這個補助國保這邊對 國民保險的部分對 沒錯那針對我們剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11977.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11994.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
有講到我們各種生意補助其實我們看了一下這幾年我們整個平均值我們全國出生的人數跟我們國民年金申請補助的人數算起來每年大概申請補助大概都是10%大概從112年 113年 104年 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11999.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12024.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
都是9.79% 10.02% 10.38%所以大概平均值大概就是一成嘛10%那如果照我們衛福部這樣子估計那你7.99億領國民年金保險7,990人那占全國新生兒出生數的一成那所以你預估我們115年新生兒大概就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12024.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12044.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
差不多七萬九千九百九十人大概八萬如果以這樣子預算估計的話如果整個平均值我們占一成來講我們去回推所以我們照這樣來講衛福部數預估今年一百一十五年大概新生兒從你預算編列大概是預估就是八萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12046.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12061.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
如果從預算的評估來講不是 包委員因為現在就像委員剛剛講的會來領的有軍公教啊也有這一個也有這一個勞保你現在用的是那個國保教育推估我是說因為連續這幾年的平均值我剛剛有講連續這幾年的平均值 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12065.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12089.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
扣掉勞保軍公教保險的領國民年金保險的這幾年平均值差不多都是10%有9點多有10點多所以大概就是一成所以如果說看我們衛福部預估來講我覺得看起來好像衛福部對今年新生的人數大概就是8萬所以看起來是不樂觀包委員這個我們當然會繼續來努力當然我們繼續來 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12094.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12103.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
來努力啦因為這個基本上人口學裡面也告訴我們了這個基本上出生基本上也跟生育步調有關啦生育步調就tempo就是說你在4040的這個16到45歲你在什麼時候生他有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12109.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12113.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
如果說以我們預算的編列因為我們預算編列一定是推估今年大概新生兒你才會去推這個預算嘛你要編預算一定有一些依據一定有一些數據去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12125.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12143.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以你大概就是像我剛剛講如果說以這麼多年的數據我們以領國民年金保險大概就是一成所以我們就是預估今年就是8萬人所以我們領國民年金抓一成來講就是8000人8000人再乘以10萬大概就是8億嘛所以你們編7.99億我們依這樣來預估所以照這樣來講衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12149.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12164.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
預估今年新生兒應該有可能就是8萬左右所以以我們預算的編列的精神來講我不知道委員那個通常人口學在推估的時候不是用這種方式人口學通常是用算那個育齡婦女對 她的那個數目然後她的cohort |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12164.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12167.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以如果說每個來領10萬其實我們就只能提供79900人去領因為你只有編7.99億所以你只要到超過8萬人我們預算就是領完了所以我們預估大概就是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12181.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12201.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好 那當然我們當然也是希望能夠有所提升啦只是我看衛福部針對這部分的預算我們照這樣子幾年的評估看起來感覺衛福部評估大概就是八萬感覺並不是很樂觀啦那這部分我也想問一下我們我請一下勞動部我們洪部長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12211.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12237.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以當然我剛剛有跟我們次長討論那依這個預算編列我是覺得衛福部大概是朝這個方向的方向大概去看去走那我看一下我們勞動部我們預估115年新生兒像勞動部就比較樂觀預估還有十萬一千五百人那我們勞動部是針對哪一部分去做這個評估這個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12241.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12259.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
根本說明因為去年的出生數應該是十萬七千我記得是十萬七千所以我們基本上當然因為這個出生數的推估這個我們其實應該是跟包括跟衛福部跟國發會這邊來去做一些相關的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12263.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12283.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
對 因為針對這部分我們是發現這個問題所以我覺得我們衛福部跟勞動部我們跨部會應該針對這一部分這些數據其實在編列預算的時候應該還是要做一些參考要有一些數據要有一些依據來編列這些預算對 當時我們其實應該是看應該是看國發會其實一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12285.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12307.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
對他其實有個人口推廓數據他今年應該會針對這個人口推廓數據再做更新我覺得我知道是他會在今年的8月會再做一次的更新只是剛剛跟衛福部跟次長討論我們針對那預算的部分我覺得大概衛福部其實大概編列7.991就是朝著大概8萬人新生兒去編列那可是我們勞動部就 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12309.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12324.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
預估就是10萬1500人其實我們兩個部會整體預算的編列看起來就差了2萬多個新生兒的預算去編列所以我們是建議啦應該以後針對這些預算編列應該跨部會我們能夠做一些檢討不然這個預算數據的編列上感覺落差很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12333.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12354.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那個跟文說明就是我覺得針對這個人口數出生數數字的推估當然我們可以來跟國發會這邊來做一些討論接下來怎麼在實際上面能夠讓他能夠更加的精準可是的確因為他是推估所以當然都會有或多或少都會有一些誤差值那這個誤差值的不確定性我想我們是可以來做一些研議的檢討當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12356.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12371.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
對不過沒關係啦這個是說我們建議就是說編列預算的時候其實我們各部會針對這個人口數應該要有一個比較近的依據你看看起來這預算編列兩個部會其實推估的人口數上次有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12371.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12382.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
因為這個數字在編列的時候去年其實在編列的時候其實那時候最後那個十萬七千這個數字其實也還沒有出來所以當時在評估的時候我們只能依據國發會當時的數字來去做當作參數來設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12387.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12407.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
好那重點還是看起來我覺得我們這8年大概花了6000億在我們少子女化的對策因應的計畫上面可是我們新生人口數我看也是從18萬然後現在也是一直下降到 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12408.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12434.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
十萬七千多人其實這段時間來我們已經每年新生到去年就少了七萬五千人看起來我們花了這六千億然後現在又編列這麼多錢看起來好像沒有達到實質的效益出來就是說人口數新生人口數還是一直在下降並沒有止跌我們不要講說回升現在連止跌都沒達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12436.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12439.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那是不是應該要有提出一個更好的策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12441.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12467.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我想整個少子女化是所有先進國家先進工業國家普遍都會面臨問題全世界大概目前對這個對策大概就三個一個給人給錢給時間給錢的部分我們現在目前大概就是有各項的我們0到6歲的這個部分主要就有育兒津貼給服務這邊主要事實上就是我們現在目前正在推的各項的公托給時間其實主要就是現在勞動部現在目前在推的各項的彈性還有包括現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12471.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12494.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
的一個彈性的措施那我想這個多元的措施之下我們希望用多元的方式來解決這問題我要強調一點這個這個是2000年population study一篇最重要的一篇被人家引用快500多次的一篇paper裡面講這是多元的原因造成多元結果所以必須要用多元的方法綜合來解決那這個我們知道現在目前下降我們也會來持續來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12498.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12520.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
其實今天提出最主要原因其實還是希望就是說我們要怎麼去針對這個政策去做檢討去做調整因為我們看一下我們看韓國他從去年11月他的人口出生率就到達2萬多而且他已經是連續17個月都是增加的而且他從2007年 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12522.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12539.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
也是前面他們也是人口出生率也是一直在降低可是他從2007年開始後面到去年他已經達到時隔18年的最高的標準也就是說韓國針對少子女化對策因應這一方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12539.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12555.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
他不是單就就是一直去補助錢補助錢他有其他很多的對策因應那我們是建議有做得好的國家我們也應該去參考一下人家去做一些什麼對策去因應那今天我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12556.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12585.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這八年花了六千億然後人口還是一直在減低我覺得應該也是適時的去參考一下其他的國家的做法為什麼他們以前也是出生率也是降低為什麼這幾年已經連續每個月每年都在提升我覺得不要說回升啦至少我們要達到止跌所以今天提出也是說希望有些政策我們應該可以去調整一下方向可以去參考一下別的國家的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12588.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12609.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好那也希望說這個大家也知道就像剛剛次長講的這少子女化也是全球目前大家一個非常重要關注的一個議題啦那但是有其他國家做得好的我們也可以去討論也可以去檢討那也是希望能夠讓我們這個少子化的國安危機能夠做得充分的改善好謝謝好謝謝圖全基委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12614.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12634.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
待會洪孟楷委員詢答完畢後休息20分鐘用餐 接下來請王洪威委員發言好謝謝主席我先請衛福部現在是次長好 我有請那個李建德次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12636.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12657.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
市長好 這兩天其實大家就是非常比較緊張的是有關於在中東戰爭而造成了包含油價的高漲 還有天然氣那雖然我們政府採取了一些措施但是現在在市面上有所謂的塑膠袋之亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12658.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12670.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那當然這裡面因為這個塑膠用品實在用途實在太廣了那尤其也影響到我們的藥材就是醫療器材的部分那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12674.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12695.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我想请问一下因为在3月23号食药署对外的说法说没有短缺一切都很OK而且业者都有库存可是到了3月26号按照部长的说法说现在要准备不排除动用200亿的特别预算 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12696.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12703.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以我想請問一下在短短的這段時間其實每一天都瞬息萬變到目前為止衛福部有沒有會同經濟部來做包含庫存的調查價錢的調查以免 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12714.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12735.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
造成包含中盤商在做操作這些供需或者是價格而不要造成說整個的在第一線消費市場的混亂我想請問衛福部現在有沒有跟經濟部來做共同的防範或者是來做產業的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12737.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12761.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我跟委員的回答是我們現在跟經濟部這邊我們有兩部的一個協商那我們先等一下下午其實部長他現在目前就是趕往行政院跟經濟部那邊要處理這個問題召開緊急會議反正就是我們現在目前我們都持續在因應這個問題那我跟委員報告三個重點第一個跟委員剛剛所說的醫材的部分主要就您剛剛說塑膠包材跟塑膠粒 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12763.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12790.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那這裡面會影響到譬如像我們現在目前像輸入醫啦或者說洗腎液統等等這些或者塑膠醫療器材那這個裡面當然主要現在目前國內石化這邊主要當然我們主要是像台塑等等這些我們也跟我跟委員報告其實我們昨天也有跟台塑那邊也有一些討論那台塑他們那邊現在目前就是優先現在目前就是上游的部分他們會優先優先供給國內的需求特別是我們優先以醫材為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12791.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12807.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
你這邊優先一採那一般的這個銷這個廠商說塑膠袋很嚴重那有些建材說我們的建材都沒有了這個當然我們政府這邊會做我現在要回答現在就是說我們現在目前有在跟上游 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12808.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12816.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
工廠商在做協調 是的沒錯然後這裡面這是第一個回答第二個回答就剛剛委員剛剛所說的我們也估了這原料成本佔比大概25%那這裡面必須要但是我們認為最重要應該要從原料供應端 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12823.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12843.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這個是我們的整個策略這樣的話用這種方式的話就等於從最上游那邊就可以來處理那這裡面所需要會有需要一些費用確實第三點就是剛剛委員剛剛說也非常感謝大院的一個支持有一個我們就是去年通過因應國際形勢強化經濟社會以民生兩百億的對那我們就從這邊用這筆錢來做為這一筆所以三個回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12848.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12865.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
昨天其實我也有問經濟部長我的具體的建議因為現在是非常時期所以我建議在上游廠商的部分應該採取非常的手段比如暫時性的在上游廠商這些材料的部分就是不要出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12865.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12867.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那但是經營部長沒有答應我他說現在用勸導的方式可是我覺得應該是優先國內的廠商那因為別說衛福部比較擔心的就是這個醫材的部分對但是我剛剛講還有其他各產業他們都有一些塑膠製品 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12884.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12904.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
甚至一般的市场的这个小摊商或面包商说我的塑胶袋都买不到或塑胶袋很贵一个礼拜涨一次等等之类所以大家都在抢货可能政府某一个程度他要做一些非常的措施第二个就是我认为我们经济部跟卫福部要联手 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12905.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12932.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
要調查相關的庫存我剛才特別講你不可能說23號告訴你說都有庫存通通沒有缺貨到26號就要召開緊急會議那這三天在做什麼我覺得這一點這個院眼前的這個必須解決所以我也建議經濟部長說他要有這個魄力一週內塑膠袋滋亂全部平息沒有這些讓大家有哄抬的機會另外就是先時間暫停一下我請我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12935.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12935.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那洪生翰部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12943.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12959.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
部長還有次長我們一起請教一下其實我自己都有宣示過凡是能夠解決少子化的政策我一律都非常支持我想請問一下我們在台北市有一個育兒減少工時計畫你可以減食但是不減薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12965.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12978.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
至少到目前为止我所知道他们已经有200多家的企业去申请而且就是整个的回应的效果是非常好那我想请问一下我们中央有没有可能考虑跟进 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12980.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13009.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
跟委員說其實我們關於一些職場彈性化的做法其實我們其實也有蠻多的眼裡比方說現在以日來請暈留庭的做法其實的確成效是非常好的然後在這個成效下其實我們也在思考接下來如何在這個職場的彈性讓大家可以兼顧家庭跟兼顧工作之間然後有更多的擴大的使用我們目前其實也在做相關的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13010.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13028.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
因為剛才有討論到12歲以下可以僱請這個外籍的看護但是事實上不是看護我知道就是幫傭外籍幫傭但是其實如果按照我們當時80歲以上免巴士兩表因為當時你們說有10萬名不得了會衝擊等等之類但是事實上市場並沒有像你們所講的這麼大的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13038.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13061.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
也就是其實這些成本造成其實並不是所有的家庭都可以不管是老的或小的他都可以去申請一個外籍的幫傭所以我才特別去講到就是說在這個怎麼樣比如說你是一個彈性的工時的時間台北市的這樣的一個做法可不可以讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13062.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13082.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個中央也來做一個考慮因為並不是所有的人所有的家庭他都可以去申請因為其實算下來每個月大概都是要這個三四萬的一個成本另外我在這邊因為我看到我們的主席站起來我最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13084.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13088.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這個建議因為呢現在有提出來就是要把這個外籍的這個移工也納入這個就是勞保費那我覺得必須去考慮到我們一般的家庭到底能不能負擔我們的雇主能不能負擔像今年我們的健保就是我們的健保費的這個費率提高其實就已經造成很多的雇主他的支出就已經提高了 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13112.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13135.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以我們在這裡必須要幫我們廣大的這些僱主來講他們的心聲就是如果這成本一直不停的跌高的話那麼這個成本會很高謝謝謝謝主席我簡單回應汪委員好不好我可以簡單回應第一件事情是我們其實現在也在研議其實對於很多這個家庭類的僱主希望有更多的支持的方案跟措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13136.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13163.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這部分我們其實也跟衛福部其實我們也一直在其實我跟次長一直在做這個事情的討論就是希望能夠讓這些家庭的僱主包括尤其是他的會遇到一些空窗期能不能再進一步的縮短會有更多其他人力上面的支持這部分我們在研議中好還有這個成本上面不要再繼續疊加好不好謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員發言接下來請陳昭之委員發言那後面還是要請大家注意一下發言時間謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13166.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13168.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好 謝謝主席 麻煩洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13176.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13180.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我還是跟你先請教一下放寬家庭幫傭的申請資格你已經看到大概至少有34個民間團體出來反對他們反對的理由包括他們覺得這個做法沒有辦法有助於女性的就業環境的改善甚至可能影響臺灣本勞的市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13198.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13204.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
甚至他們還提到了就是說加深階級的不平等那有關這一點就讓我想起來因為過去政府在阻擋這個代孕法案的時候這個性別跟人權影響評估常常被拿出來做理由那我請教洪部長這次開放這個外籍幫傭的這個政策好像你沒有做這個性別跟這個人權影響評估就直接宣布上路了不是這樣子的部長有嗎你有做嗎有在進行我也覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13226.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13248.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
有在進行 進行中 可是已經宣布了不是 跟委員說明第一個因為性別相關的這些評估是行政院的性評會提出要求的所以我們會在下一次行政院性評會的時候把報告定稿提到性評會裡面我希望不要太針對性就是性別跟這個人權評估一樣不要太針對性就是說如果要做就是原則上來做不是原則上來做 是要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13250.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13264.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
要做部長那上個會期其實我已經跟您提到了就是說這個政策當時我問你多少人那因為那時候沒有官方數字我是用學術界資料那當然今天你估出144萬戶可能受賄不是不是不是144萬戶可能受賄是 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13266.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13280.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
他們符合有就是至少符合這個條件申請的資格符合條件可是他還要看他的意願包括他的能力包括他家的空間所以並不是我不敢說這140萬因為這個相對因為成本那剛剛前面的我也都提到相對這個成本是高的那負擔的其實是有限的我們認為可能是前20%才有能力來處理那所以我們會懷疑說這個到底是全民政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13293.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13308.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
還是真的幫助比較相對高收入的家庭等於用相對廉價的勞動力來達到這個多文說明其實在很多照顧喪志的政策它本來就會是分眾的所以它不是只是靠單一個政策可以解決所有人的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13308.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13330.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
會有不同的政策去處理不同的痛點需求所以的確有一群人是有這個需求沒有錯但也有人也有其他勞工有別的需求我們也為他設計其他的政策有資格但是未必是要甚至我了解但是我想先請教勞動部你有能力引進多少家庭這個外籍幫助人你有多少能力能夠引進來你有盤點過或插盤推演過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13333.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13362.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
跟委員說這不是要說我有能力引進多少但是的確我們也是在跟我們的母國這個來源的母國來討論因為我跟委員說因為就像之前在談這個免巴氏量表的議題的時候我們其實當時其實也跟來源母國來討論是不是能夠擴大這個來源的這個來源量跟來源母國來做討論所以我們也跟他討論了幾個月的這個時間所以這一併是會有很多的配套要進行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13362.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13377.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
不是 我知道當然你們同時在做這些是很辛苦但是我總要問你你說我們沙盤退員過你有能力引進多少那大概再來看我們需求多少因為這個變成國家政策第一個是我們認為這個申請的它可能會是比較漸進式的不好意思請那個衛副次長也能夠上來一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13381.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13398.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
因為衛福部規劃最近最快今年四五月開放醫院要併這個外籍互佐要減輕護理師的壓力所以這個部分也是跟勞動部有關的請問現在是次長請問次長你覺得我們要多少人力才夠外籍互佐已經宣布了報告委員我們會開放是中階勞動力不是那個技術人力不是這個外籍互佐沒有外籍互佐 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13410.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13421.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以在第四五月你規劃是這個時候要因為要外籍護醫院聘嘛醫院需要外籍護佐當然有一些阻力可是衛福部已經講了其實我都有數字119年前要2000人我跟委員報告我們在長照這邊確實在夜間人力這邊我們會引進外籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13430.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13447.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
中階勞動力這個是確定的市長您現在是否認說有外籍戶左這件事嗎因為當然護理師本身有很多的關注跟委員報告是外籍照服員不是戶左照服員 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13448.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13467.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那也是勞動部要因為我們現在知道的資料是應該是衛福部的住院整合計劃這一支計劃裡面要有外籍的補佐員應該不是外籍補佐你們彼此的政策有互相理解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13469.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13473.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
你們有做橫向的聯繫嗎我們收到的資料是他們是住院整合照護計畫這個計畫裡面會有一個比較像是照顧的輔佐 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13486.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13495.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那個主操之務要注意時間那可是他一樣要有專業跟語言上面的訓練所以不是外籍互作次長請問部長我再談一下這個泰伯他開除工會幹部的時候你看看這個左邊這個投影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13501.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13505.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
勞動部說絕不容忍你知道最近泰伯不斷的透過媒體跟輿論等各種方法來試圖打壓工會董事長甚至祭出一億元的獎金鼓勵社會各界來試圖資方打壓工會那勞動部對資方這些動作有處理嗎因為你當時說絕不容忍你看這個標題我請市長來說明我們現在進入裁決的時候然後請簡短說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13529.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13545.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
院委員報告目前他工會有提出兩個裁決申請案第一個案子有關教唆會員退會的這個部分我們會在4月17號再召開一次詢問會議後會盡快的做一個裁決決定第二有關一次解雇理事長這個案子我們也受理了那我們也盡快的審理也會盡快的來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13547.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13563.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
你們不可以人眼旁觀因為你當初也我們絕對是依法處理我們絕對是依法處理部長我最後一個提醒是少子化的社會這個就是會仰賴更多的移工那移工的勞錢問題會越來越多那如果勞動部沒有做好準備整個國際都非常關心我們非常關注這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13567.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13580.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
會影響我們的很多貿易協定尤其是大家現在在談強迫勞動尤其捷安特是一個非常重要的例子這個前車之鑒那請勞動部多加注意謝謝兩位謝謝主席接下來請侯孟凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13596.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13599.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
好 感謝主席 我們麻煩先請呂次長麻煩呂次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13606.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13626.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
市長我想今天感謝主席提這樣子的一個很重視的相關討論那本席有看到就是說其實長照的議題啊我覺得很重要的地方是很多需要照顧的這個家庭他其實沒有辦法說直接到相關機構或說在交通的部分這確實有落差為什麼呢因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13628.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13645.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
本席也接收到好幾個協會的陳情不管是無障礙協會等等他講說全台需要輪椅出入的族群差不多50萬到60萬這是協會給我們的一個數字但是全台可用的無障礙車輛約莫比較寬鬆的來算6000輛左右而這6000輛可能在於是無障礙計程車1000多輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13653.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13680.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
富康巴士2000多輛還有一些部分所以其實這樣子看得出來它的一個比例相對來講有落差那另外呢又以在六都上來說可能它的計程車無障礙計程車或者說富康巴士相對來講量能比較高但是非六都以外更少了所以說其實這就是一個你想說惡性循環藥或說它就是一個長期沒有辦法補齊的一個問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13682.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13712 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
是 那我們現在就想要救教因為這是一個大災問而且他可能也不是只是衛福部一個部會他可能還要連同交通部一起來協助好 所以我們現在來想是說針對這樣的問題我們是不是能夠比較明確的因為本席一開始接收到這個協會成全的時候我也很訝異全台灣有五六十萬需要接送或是說不管是輪椅或是身心障礙或者是這個年長者他沒有辦法移動需要接送到底這個數字精不精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13713.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13725.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
委員對於這個問題的催省因為委員剛剛所說應該主要是需求跟供給供給跟需求之間的一個不均衡我們一定要先了解需求然後還有供給然後我們才能想辦法說怎麼樣加強供給那現在有問題現在就是說委員剛剛所說的50萬這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13730.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13757.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個數字我覺得恐怕因為我先跟我們報告啦供給端你現在說有關於那個復康巴士那個主要就是你要你要有那個你要有那個你要有那個身障的你要有那個身障那個鑑定嘛那身障鑑定那邊全台灣我們當然是這邊有一個數字可是另外一個是失能的就是老人失能的就是高齡失能身障這一些都算是可能無法移動或說需要協助那本息好 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13758.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13772.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我講比較直接說我覺得我們應該可以怎麼做您聽聽看那我們是不是來討論是不是可以用三個月的時間盤點一下各縣市到底我們現在針對高齡 失能 身障這一些廣義加起來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13773.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13792.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
需要協助就是需要達成無障礙不管是達成無障礙計程車達成復康巴士的這個人數的需求把它給統計出來因為我之前試著想要資料但是他比較片面但如果說我們能夠第一掌握到底各縣市22縣市這一個族群有多大是不是真如協會所陳情的五六十萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13794.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13821.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
好那再來第二步再來盤點各縣市現在有的無障礙計程車富康巴士那我們來一對之後兩相對照就可以看得出來哪個縣市其實它的缺口最大或是哪個縣市其實相對來講它的落差比較我們第二步才能想是說那我們應該怎麼樣協助那個縣市並且增加好當然我最期待的是全台灣有一個合理的比例譬如說我們常常以前提到的護病比 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13822.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13849.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
就是1比9那我們也期待是說是不是每個縣市都要達到一個這個叫所謂無障礙車輛比就是它有多少的需求跟多少的車輛那1比多少是合理的範圍到目前為止我們好像沒有看到衛福部或交通部有這樣的一個數字所以次長能不能承諾三個月內我們盤點出來那也許我們內部可以先討論說那我們合理的這個無障礙車輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13851.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13870.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
比例是一比多少就一台無障礙計程車可以對比譬如說十個家庭那這是一個合理的範圍或是說七個家庭等於是一個禮拜一天那一台計程車它可以服務七天沒錯沒錯是不是我真的非常非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心因為真的是非常非常專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13871.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13897.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那我跟委員那個報告三個月我們來盤點那我跟委員先報告剛剛同仁有跟我講現在就是說我們的這一個全台灣我們現在目前的聲音障礙總共有123萬那這裡面剛剛委員剛剛所說比較有一些肢體障礙總共是76709所以這個就一定的就是有關聲音障礙另外一個就是失能的失能長輩這邊我們應該都可以把它盤出來這個就是說確實你要需求要對準 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13898.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13920.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
要準確的估計這樣我們還有各縣市的分佈所以我們才能來做政策嘛這個沒問題這個我們來那另外一個也跟委員報告就是說其實事實上在那個生權小組還有在社會福利推動委員會其實很多團體也在推事實上我知道也有這個像林月琴委員她也一直在質詢這個問題目前供給端這邊我跟委員報告確實是有正出多門的問題比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13922.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13948.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
富康巴士富康巴士誰管無障礙計程車誰管無障礙計程車的話事實上是交通局那我跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前在研擬一個就是國外其實事實上要這邊有兩個痛點第一個事實上是尖峰的問題就是說你特別是就醫等等這些的話這個可能這是一個問題另外一個事實上一定要有一個類似像這個所謂的call center的一個設計就是說就是派錢嘛然後不要讓閒置的人力浪費沒錯市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13950.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13971.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
剛剛我們講三個月我們盤點出來那我們三個月後再來說因為林月琴委員剛剛您都提到了所以我想我召委一定很關心這個議題那您先請回不好意思召委既然聽到你的名字再給我兩分鐘吧洪部長洪部長來啦洪部長拜託我請洪部長上來一下好不好因為每一個人的時間大家都一樣我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13972.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13992.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我看到黃秀芳委員也真的講蠻久沒有 她是我們本委因為我覺得外委我們都是一支本委跟外委我們不能差很多我關心的議題因為你現在用到的也會變成事實上是跟本委的時間會是一樣的對 但是 趙偉因為其實我剛剛我可以打斷次長我讓次長把他講完但是其實我今天關心兩個議題每一個委員都是一樣那一個 這個議題也很重要我是不是能夠好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13994.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14011.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我請部長上來兩分鐘不超過好不好就給你一分鐘否則那我們就稍微好來來請我想我們立法院就是要好好的讓民眾的聲音能夠被聽見嘛如果說這樣我們自我都限縮的話那我這樣也覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14012.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14028.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我想行政部門應該不會抗拒或是害怕我們的質詢吧但我也不是要針對性部長我們在這一個上個會期我們有通過了外送專法這我們共同努力的那上個禮拜其實有一個很大的事件就是外送平台又說要用相對的收購的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14029.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14055.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那Glob這個平台它其實在過去東南亞也有一些不管是說列機也好市機也好它確實它是很強的一個平台也很強的一個APP那我現在只想講因為很多外送員現在也擔心說未來會不會變成又是壟斷的一個部分所以外送專法通過之後相關的執法以及最重要大家認為很大的重點透明度就演算法的透明度是不是要在執法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14056.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14077.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
可以說明一下 其實去年外送專法通過後現在相關的執法目前如火如荼的正在訂立中也在跟不管是外送員的社群或者是跟平台的社群各方有沒有納入可以要求因為我們那時候一直強調我們現在是地板但是我們要的是說看到他的演算法透明度 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14077.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14088.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
因為他演算法一遍再遍其實對外送員對餐廳很沒有保障所以我們就是依照我們去年三讀通過的法律在訂立相關的制度什麼時候可以出來呢來用麥克風好不好 市長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14091.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14113.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那應該是年中吧這個年中現在已經三月囉所以說六月底以前可以出來執法執法有需要再公告嗎要要再公告所以我們六月底以前可以看到執法還有一些相關的預告作業相關法的部分我們再請教但是我要求六月中就六月底以前要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14114.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14133.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
不是你要不要求 是我們原本就在這個方向進行這本來就是我們要求啊 我要求勞動部一定要如實做到我們委員會所通過的法例我們會依照三讀通過的法例好好的來訂定好 沒有問題 那我就看六月底我們再來追 謝謝接下來我們休息20分鐘用餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
15500.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
15526.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好 我們繼續開會 接下來請鄭天才委員發言好 主席有請這個衛福部次長來 請電德次長政委員您好 次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
15529.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
15538.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
這個原住民族長照的一個文化健康站是沒錯這個我們在整個從111年到115年現在只有530多站 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
15545.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
15565.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那我們看這個長照基金115年度我們看這個長照基金所編列的這個預算這個基金基金的來源有增加增加很多總共今年度115年度是1145億338萬1千元比這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
15574.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
15594.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
去年度758億多出了386億這是長照基金的基金來源當然用途也增加很多如果我們看這張整理之後的表這個基金用途這個上年度是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
15599.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
15602.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
只有879億多那今年度115年度已經成長到1102億5000多 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
15614.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
15630.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
基金來源增加比例是51.01%增加很多實際上在基金用途上增加了25.43%如果我們看整個基金用途裡面分配給 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
15632.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
15653.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
原住民族文化健康站的部分去年度是15億那今年度有增加15億450萬增加了4500萬是有增加沒有錯但是如果我們從比例來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
15655.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
15668.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
從比例來看還是很少增加3%而已所以這個部分如果我們從原住民的需求原住民族的需求來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
15671.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
15691.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我們在都會區文化健康站103站那延鄉地區現在有429站但是我們在延鄉我們的部落 延民會核定的部落總共有739站 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
15693.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15707.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
也就是說我們還有310個站還沒有文化健康站社長或者是我們衛福部的同仁部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15708.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15728.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
部落與部落之間都很遠交通不方便甚至部落裡面的林與林之間也都會很遠所以你要說這個部落要到鄰近的部落就很難所以它的需求數還是非常非常多雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15730.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15747.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
115年度的經費有成長文化健康障碍成長但是成長的比例還是如果要跟整個基金用途的成長比例來講還是差很多這個部分這個衛福部是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15748.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15763.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
在因为你的基金来源还有增加很多吗还剩余很多而且还可以这个超支并结算何况也没有超支啊因为你的基金来源事实上是很高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15766.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15789.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
非常感謝鄭委員對我們原住民一直以來的一個關心剛剛委員有垂詢特別是文化健康站我跟委員報告其實在有關於您剛剛非常關心的文件站的部分預防延緩失能我們非原民平均一個人一年是14000我跟委員報告原民的話是85679 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15792.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15798.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
這個就是說其實就背書而言其實我們對原民這邊其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15802.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15826.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那個相當到你要講的了但是我們現在我們就整個金額或是我們的需求數來講就部落來講就還有一半三百多個部落沒有然後你剛也講了這個距離也都很遠然後如果我們從平均移民長照就會涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
15827.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15849.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
平均移民對不對 你看我們的平均移民落差還是7.54% 將近8%這樣的一個落差 加上還有一個狀況我們到都會區就學就業的 年輕人都到都會區了所以留在部落的就是老人 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15850.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15870.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以他的你看百分之五十二点多现在都会去这是有社户籍的所以这个部分这个加上面社户籍的年轻人到都会去就业但是他他的研究还在部落的一定是七八成了所以他的在原乡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15871.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15892.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
他的需求數仍然很大是也會跟我們平均一面除了這個健康醫療各方面之外這個部分也是其中重要的因素之一這個請衛衛部多多支持好OK好謝謝非常感謝鄭委員謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言接下來請盧縣議委員發言就是有請洪森漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15902 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15914.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那現在是長照3.0了嘛那知道長照2.0的滿意度是多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15923.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15946.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這個是衛福部的業務沒有關係 因為我是故意問你的想說你知不知道九成是九成 對那可是為什麼是九成也沒有去想過我在想是不是缺乏對結案者或者是說符合資格去為申請服務還有去短期使用者的一些data所以我覺得那些不用的不用這些長照資源的人你要去問為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15947.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15975.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我覺得長照310可能就是要去解決這些沒有去使用或者是說中途離開這個長照的這個系統資源的人然後去解決他們的那個當時遇到的難題我覺得是一個方向那我們現在在我們看根據我們衛福部跟勞動部的那個第一章的報告大概做了一些整理那我們等一下再細談我們先看勞動部的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15978.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16002.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
就是說我們現在的長照的價很像是沒有一個法源的依據因為育兒的話他有育嬰價可是長照的話現在是家庭照顧價所以我們希望有一個就是所謂的比照我們的育嬰價的這樣一個法源所以是不是有一個長照安排價的這樣一個未來的一個方向部長會不會支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16003.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16021.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
跟陸委員說明的確其實我們是有看到這個社會其實對於長照相關的事務其實有必須要協助處理的需求尤其是受雇者那因為現在其實長照3.0的制度就像剛才委員說的其實也是近期那開始上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16021.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16044.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以過去其實會有一些狀況可能這個很多的勞工他因為要做長照相關的安排或者是處理的時候他還是的確會遇到一些空窗期所以我們其實也在跟衛福部在討論那也請衛福部再研議跟評估就說3.0上路以後那些過去大家可能會覺得比較長時間的等待或空窗的部分那可以縮短到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
16044.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
16071.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那在有這些相關的數據跟需求的樣態了解以後我覺得我們比較好來綜合的思考是不是要透過一些公使或者職場的制度來去做一些支援的部分OK 沒關係那我們就繼續來努力了那多元陪伴這個部分我看很像只有13家全國然後只有大概服務的4800人次就一個國家的希望工程來看的話我覺得這個部分會不會覺得太少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
16072.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
16086.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
第一個跟委員說明這確實是一個事半的計劃那其實去年4月上路那我們其實也很小心因為這個政策其實我們有點像一點一點一點的在擴大一開始是四家六家一開始六家 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
16087.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
16109.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那到後來我們把它擴大那接下來當然也希望這個服務的模式如果相對比較成熟的話那可以在更多的縣市來找到可以協辦的跟我們合作的機構那一起再來做擴大的示範那常常遇到的就是說看得到吃不到這樣的一個窘境就是有些照服員他根本就不願意去接這些短期的案子因為心裡面有個負案要怎麼去改善它 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
16112.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
16125.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
你說的是本國的兆福園嗎對啊就是他們比如說外籍康復他要去請假結果多元陪伴計畫不是用兆福園那兆福園是衛福部這邊OK好那沒關係那我們請衛福部好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
16132.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
16148.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
市長好市長好我也好對我們講說現在的兆富源可能就是不會去接這種短期的案子我們就是有沒有在想說要怎麼去給他們增加誘因讓他們去做這些短期的一些案子那有喘息真的真正的可以喘息 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
16150.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
16177.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
包委員我們現在是採取這個都採取預約的那個方式來來進行那我當然就是誠如剛剛洪部長剛剛有說我們也現在也在也都在檢討檢討現在目前的一些整個執行情況執行期間是不是有哪一些還不夠好用我們會來跟勞動部這邊來密切合作像這個地區我的理解就是比如說一個部落到一個部落可能要一個小時來回就要兩個小時他可能一個早上只服務了兩個個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
16178.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
16187.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
所以我一直在想到現在還是還沒有對針對這些偏遠地區的造福源有些偏遠加急或者是困難度的加急 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
16189.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
16210.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
目前還沒有看到這個方案我已經提了很多次所以我一直覺得是說哪一個方案就是照服員啊他們比如說在一個比如說這個部落到那個部落的距離非常遙遠讓他一個一個早上可能只服務了兩個個案可是就平地地區的照服員他可以因為地理性的關係或者是交通便利性的關係他可以一個早上可以服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
16211.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
16235.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
超過他的倍數或者是說很像早上就可以服務10個個案我常常遇到這種造福源那你看收入卻是差很多可是他的困難度跟他的辛苦的程度不亞於在平地地區服務的造福源包委我們現在目前這個部分其實是有那個啦您剛剛說那個部分有一個誘因就是那個交通津貼每個月3000塊的一個我覺得還是太少啦那個勞動部長請回謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
16239.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
16264.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
市長那出院銜接這個兩天我覺得是不是太美化了因為我覺得在如果是在原住民地區根本就不可能拿到所以我在想這個均速四天是不是也把那個我們弱勢跟偏遠地區的把它很像也平均掉了根本就看不出來那個它的困難程度所以我覺得針對我們偏鄉跟加入出院的家屬是不是應該要去做一個真的是怎麼去落實這個出院銜接的這個服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
16268.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
16288.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
跟委員說明那初輩銜接長照服務的這個部分因為在偏鄉居住的民眾他就醫大概都是到因為醫療院所有初輩的都會到都會區就是醫療資源供應的區域所以當他出院要回到部落去那這個部分我們現階段是讓醫院的這個初輩小組這邊來完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
16293.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
16307.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
當天如果能夠銜接完就一個案子有2000塊的獎勵金那如果他遞延這個時間的話獎勵金會遞減現在跟醫療院所這邊開過會他們目標都要朝向爭取拿到這個最高的獎勵金 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
16309.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
16330.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
所以我們會這塊會努力那現在全國平均下來其實是去年年底的資料是3.66天所以是平均4天那我們今年目標是平均兩天如果下次有資料的話是不是把偏鄉或者是說假日出院的把這個資料特別拿出來看是不是有比較稍微更長一點或者是實際的那個數據來呈現讓我們知道可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
16333.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
16361.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
就是就住院的部分我看到全職陪伴或者說部分陪伴希望有照護輔助人員來幫忙可是我們也確實有遇到一些陳情就是他到了醫院以後找不到人可以幫忙然後醫院拼命打電話給家屬可是家屬他沒有辦法請假所以會變成說其實很像有看到這個餅可是卻享受不到你現在說你現在是有大概是100多家院所嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
16362.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
16389.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
可是我們的跟我們陳情的是在屏東的屏東的地區區域醫院還是會遇到這種病患的家屬的陳情就是說找不到人可以照顧甚至是因為造成護理人員的那個就是他已經夠忙了有互辯別的關係他就護理人員會對他們怒言相向就等於是在病房裡面就吵架了我覺得這個部分是不是還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
16390.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
16416.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那若是在照護輔助人員的這些人力的部分跟委員報告就是我們住院整合照護就是就醫院有提出這個計劃申請的話我們就是在他照護的比例一定要有這個照護員的一個搭配那剛提到也有可能這個醫院他沒有實施這個住院整合照護那他就請一般的看護的這個狀況那最後就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
16417.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
16438.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
附帶今天的陳情案一個叫PAC計畫他想不到來跟我們陳情因為他一直認為說他是屬於這個就是類似像腦中風他是受傷造成他沒有意識然後意識模糊然後需要這樣子全時間照顧結果因為他沒有辦法加入這個PAC計畫所以就在醫院裡面被踢來踢去然後強迫他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
16439.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
16466.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
幾號要出院然後再到另外一家醫院然後現在又要求他在3月6號出院因為他說他的被拒絕的理由是他未滿18歲因為這個這個病人剛好17歲而已他是因為在過年期間搬阿嬤搬東西結果從車上掉下來打到打到腦所以就變成現在這個狀況然後在台東又加創的是那邊沒有所謂的復健科醫師可以收病房所以我覺得是不是要去先解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
16468.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
16478.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這個年齡限制因為你腦部受傷並沒有年齡限制他是說醫院的他好像有寫信給衛福部衛福部的答案就是說未滿18歲沒有在這個PAC計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
16481.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
16503.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
OK 非常感謝委員 我想這個確實我覺得這沒有年齡的問題部長其實有指示我們 我們現在會有一個PAC的照護照那也希望會後的話 各位辦公室要個案的資料那我上次有講到環境疾病的一些就是脊腹的問題 上次是ITP就是血小板底下的問題前幾天又說到乾燥症的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
16504.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
16522.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我覺得不能全無或是全有也就是說有的時候有補助有時候完全沒有補助應該是有一個等級或者說按照個案的比如說他的經濟狀況或者是他的家庭環境我覺得應該是以%的一個補助比如說每個月兩萬多塊對一個要撫養四到 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
16525.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
16552.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
四到六個小孩有些是在工作是沒有工作這樣的會造成家庭非常大的負擔尤其是原住民還要在部落還要在多月去租房子那我是覺得說這樣的一個罕見疾病我是覺得不能用他實際的那個病情但是還要酌情他的所有的條件家庭環境也好還有他的經濟來源也好所以每次給我們的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
16553.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
16567.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我們就說奇怪 已經罕見疾病的那個經驗那麼高為什麼我們都享受不到這樣的一個福利可以嗎 市長 好的 OK好 感謝委員 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳憲宜委員發言 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
16579.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
16582.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
有請兩位一個是我們的衛福部的呂次長那後面那一半部呢是請勞動部的洪部長但是部長來的時候請那個王司長扶植退休師跟那個保險師的陳副司長陪同先請我們次長先請呂次 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
16607.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
16623.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我可以趕啦 你不用趕啦女士啊 會不會覺得只有20分鐘午餐你吃過了沒阿伯 吃20分鐘午餐不是很健康啦可見我們胃環的真物觀不但腦袋靈光 身體也要健康 祝福你好 幹嘛問這個問題啊 健康有關的來 下一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
16624.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
16644.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
欸廚師不碰錢可以降低餐飲的污染風險嗎人家第一個反應是廚師不碰錢餐廳會賠錢不是是因為調理人員不可以同時接觸金錢是不是這樣子去年鬧的軒然大波衛生部有沒有接到電話詢問啊為什麼最高罰兩億欸我牙齒要到最頂端這樣才罰兩億我全部給你好不好但是有沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
16646.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
16656.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
鈔票硬幣有多髒有這什麼葛蘭市楊氏郡葡萄球郡聯合郡對不對雖然我們兩個都不是個專業的但我想你懂啦所以後來我們為何不有在推這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
16658.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
16678.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
包委我們就是但是我直接問你啦在國外旅遊醫院有沒有用過這種叫做自助獸營點餐機你可以用行動支付也可以用現鈔也可以點餐這樣會不會就可以滿足衛福部的要求可以嘛但是我們期待所有的小吃店都裝這個欸 應該不會糟糕只靠宣傳推廣夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
16679.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
16699.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
不夠好來我們看那衛部會怎麼做往下看衛部呢我們的地方的衛生局呢重點稽查的對象包括有重大食安隱憂的啦熱門的啦特定場所的我們有九種樣態會怎樣會要優先稽查高強度去稽查對不對這合理嗎沒錯從風險管控的方式這些我們多去查反過來說來下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
16701.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
16726.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那如果你又符合GHP的就是你有優的或良的那麼我們地方衛生單位就是減少稽查的密度而且你貼上這個會增加顧客的好感對不對衛生部就這個手段而已嘛那我想請教一下如果這樣的話未來如果採用那樣的機器自助收銀那它也沒有高風險它也沒有無接觸的結帳有沒有幫助它可以取得這兩種標章 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
16728.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
16744.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
其實照道理應該要應該要不是應該要你們要求要沒錯可是單靠這個業者有動機嗎沒有參營業者來我告訴你參營業者他們什麼人過去我曾經調查過我們國內50萬到60萬大概這個為免用統一發票的小店家 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
16745.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
16767.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
將近八成是什麼是餐飲業在疫情期間經濟部針對他們一個月營業衝擊補助4萬塊他們喜不喜歡好開心喔另外呢我們的賴總統在2018年當行政院長的時候他也去動了一個政策就是用行動支付用行動支付那你就可以怎樣得到1%營業稅不然要5%還補助你手續費還補助你什麼設備經濟部有這樣的預算跟宣導外部有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
16775.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
16784.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
沒有所以怎麼辦這是一個打群架的時代如果像你們剛剛要推動這些餐飲業者改用這種事情的話來下一頁小規模營業人行動支付租稅優惠2.0財政部也出手了 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
16791.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
16812.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
為什麼因為賴總統那個到2018年到2025年就落日了2026年起這些裝的行動資助的店家可以延續用2.0他裝了一個多媒體資訊服務機就是我說的自助收銀點餐機就會繼續享有什麼1%的優惠那有這樣的好康你覺得經濟部會不會宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
16813.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
16834.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
會宣導 會宣導 沒錯衛福部要不要一起去宣導對不對 你要告訴餐飲業者 你整隻你就可以優或良喔 是不是這樣那你要不要承諾跟經濟部跟財政部一起來幫助我們這個將近小店家將近八成是做餐飲的解決了他們是不是就達到了衛福部的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
16835.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
16864.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
所以你對嗯之外可不可以說你願意加入OK 鮑偉那個我覺得非常感謝你這個這題真的非常Smart的一個Design我要回去跟部長報告我覺得這是一個就是一點理由啦是 希望你跟部長報告之後呢部長指派你或林次長讓我來邀請財政部的次長和經濟部的次長一起三個部位共同來通好不好好 OK好 接下來我們要請那個勞動部的洪部長謝謝看下一頁來 待會呢我要請教洪部長的我就先開始講了你慢慢走 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
16865.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16875.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那個現在我們勞退自體有超過134個員工3萬的員工參加勞退自體可是自體率目前不到18%部長你覺得這滿意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16878.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16904.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我們都希望再盡量再拉高因為勞退自體真的對勞工是有幫助的是的我覺得勞動部這樣做是對的但是你們分析哪些人會參加勞退自體哪些人不參加勞退自體我看一下會參加的大部分都是收入月薪比較高的沒錯平均大概六萬六那而且他們大部分年資生有時候會退休他們期待的是什麼穩定的投報率所以要保證兩趴所以他們是參加勞退自體有兩趴嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16905.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16919.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
但是年輕的人不見得不參加字題他不參加字題什麼原因我們看到現在很多年輕人會幹嘛領古族對不對買基金嘛有沒有遇到這樣年輕人他賺的沒有很多但是他為什麼不加追勞退字題他自己去選投資標的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16922.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16945.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
呃他其實有些因為我們的確看到比較多他是薪資比較低的人但是他想要參加他不參加勞退字體他自己去買肌膚通為什麼他喜歡找那種投報率高的是不是這樣子所以同樣一個勞退字體不同的心情高收入的高月薪的比較資深的他希望穩健現況但是新加入職場的欸他雖然稅金可能不會很高他希望找那種比較有 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16946.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16974.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
積極性的有投報率高的但是目前勞退好像不能提供這樣的一個需求對不對那未來下一個過去我們有考慮過勞退自選嗎自提自選嗎因為其實勞保是有勞退的投資是有保證收益對2%對所以我們如果自選的話就不保證我們目前是沒有規劃自選是但是為什麼會對自選有保留呢因為他不保證投報嘛對那如果說要吸引那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16975.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16993.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
不保證投報的那這些參加穩定投報的自提的人他反對什麼你們要參加自選的你們就自己投報啊我是我沒有自選我有固定投報啊他們為什麼也不太高興有人可以有自選可以選 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16996.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
17011.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
其實主要我覺得是在這個保證的投報率的部分其實他擔心整個勞退的水位下降現在勞工都來要參加自提沒有自選通通在自提自提的水庫會一直有水位 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
17011.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
17032.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
如果未來新進的年輕勞工他不參加自提他要自選他跑到另外一個小水庫去了原來的大水庫水位就怎樣會下降是不是這樣子所以他們希望說不要有個自選的選項分開了我們勞退的水庫對不起主席還有一點點時間好那往下看那有沒有可能我們去吸收這些有可能參加自提的人來 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
17033.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
17042.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
未完委員會我曾經在去年底問過就你們的答案是什麼涉及勞工退休資金的權益變革勞僱商的權益結構廣泛收集意見收集完了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
17044.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
17072.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我已經收集了根本說沒有因為現在的確會有一些大概純現在講的我們講的是純救治的不是不是我現在講的是說為什麼這些參加自體的人他不希望有個自體的選項因為自選的選項會跑到外面去嘛所以他原來的自體的人的水庫會所謂會下降嘛所以我要告訴你是說我們怎麼樣讓現在選擇自體的穩健型他的水繼續加入好不好部長再給我30秒時間我很快的講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
17073.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
17090.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
勞退的救治如果你是維持救治的你有一個要是公司倒閉會不會支錢你怕這個風險你就選擇薪資是當年但是有些人選擇留在他的救治他30歲30年滿基數之後他就沒辦法繼續累積他的退休保障這是目前有一些幸運兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
17092.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
17119.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
但是大部分人都選擇心智選擇心智的人他在自提往下看但是自提呢他就是這樣你就是固定的投報率保障2%但是如果這些滿技術的人在僱主同意的情況提前結清他把這些帶槍投靠把這些錢來加入了自選的方案或者說自提不是自選自提的方案是不是讓我們現在自提的水庫水位增加現在自提的人他希望怎樣固定投報率嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
17121.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
17135.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這些滿基數的人心態也是比較保守他希望有保證投保率你們歡迎不歡迎一句話你們歡迎不歡迎如果這些人來加入我們因為的確現在有一些工會尤其我們研議對於這些目前還純救治的勞工是不是有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
17136.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
17157.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
可以有這個得到這個我按照你講話的節奏因為因為字體的績效這幾年就是勞退薪資的績效這幾年很好所以希望有沒有機會可以有多一點的也可以幫忙他投資的可能性那就拜託你們好不好那這個是我們會來研議我想我們會來研議那最後的結論呢請衛福部調不是這首首是勞動部啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
17159.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
17187.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
為參加勞退自提者是否有自主投資你們去調查一下如果他有請問他的投資標的種類跟他期望的投報率為你們的勞退自提或者是自選找到你們潛在的對象好不好可不可以請勞動部做出這樣的一個生活報告我們可以做一點study這個部分一個月內好不好還是要三個月我主動給你三個月啦三個月好了好不好謝謝謝謝主席的寬容也謝謝部長祝你有良好的腸胃健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
17189.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
17198.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
很難耶 因為未還真的好 來 我們謝謝我們的仲嘉賓委員發言接下來請郭益勤委員發言好 謝謝主席有請次長你要部長還是次長是 次長 先次長不過還是要提醒大家真的 發言要主席部長也可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
17218.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
17228.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
都好 部長好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
17247.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
17274.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那我想但是這個84這個數字很漂亮但是其實背後我想要幫一群人來講話這一群人是不是沒有真正的被接觸其實就是我們所謂的三明治族群那因為現在少子化所以其實有很多的重擔都落在這個三明治族群下有小上有老但是他們其實也是我們社會當中的企業的這個中間的分子同時也是最依賴的這個最重要的一個戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
17275.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
17299.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那我想在這個韶智樺剛剛提到這個這樣子的一個結構跟衝擊之下有時候我們要承擔來自這個父母親的晚年的健康但是我們還要承擔孩子們的未來所以其實這個我們的三明治族群很辛苦但我們現在的制度真的有讓他們可以不需要在這個孝順或者是在工作之間可能我們要在工作或者是在家庭這兩者合而為一嗎還是兩者我們真的不用讓他們二選一 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
17303.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
17315.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那我想這個是值得我們去思考的那我想這個長照服務不是只有申請就馬上會到位他其實還包含我要失能的發聲醫療的處置還要貧欠的評估最後的結果最後實際服務進場這中間啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
17322.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
17345.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
中間啊有一段好長的空窗期這個空窗期就是我們這些三明治族群最辛苦的時候因為他還要兼顧工作可是他還要跑這些所謂的程序對於一個從來沒有經過所謂的長照的這個照護者的訓練的這些所謂的三明治族群這個對他們來講是很大很大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
17346.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
17368.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
肩膀上的負擔啦體力上的負擔啦心理層面上的負擔啦請問我們衛福部我們真的在這個部分有沒有幫他們有一個支持的一個制度能夠讓他們在轉弦的這樣子的一個部分也能夠為我們的我們一直在講長照3.0我們一直在講我們要照顧很多人問題是這一群人有沒有被接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
17371.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
17399.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
跟委員說明確實就是這個從這個病一個事件到他後面落入長照服務中間這個空窗盡量把它縮短所以我們現在從兩個方面一個就是在醫院的住院過程當中那個轉協就是叫做初備初院準備服務這裡去銜接長照服務那過去大概從初院到長照進來大概在這個2.0之前大概是要51天 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
17400.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
17418.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那現在我們去年大概縮短到四天左右平均3.66天那我們今年是希望再往前推進這個讓它縮短到兩天這個大概是我們希望能夠盡快去讓它縮短最終目的就是無縫接軌啦那當然第二個也必須這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
17420.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
17437.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
要有這個評估就是在這個剛剛您提到的長照需求評估那個評估的時候通常也需要有家屬在旁邊所以這個是剛剛為什麼今天我們會有這個什麼照顧假這個的討論那當然另外一個銜接的部分是我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
17439.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
17455.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
做你還是會這個住院的時候需要可能一下子就需要你還沒有長照之前可能就需要住院的生活照顧了那我們就是推動這個叫全整合性的這個住院照護 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
17456.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
17481.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
就是由兆福園直接進到醫院來那麼用一對多的方式來服務那這個已經做了兩年成績也還不錯那但是過去礙於預算規模比較小大概在5000床左右所以我們今年把它擴大希望從過去的5.6億一年到25億就是希望也來銜接住讓這個大家不用請假來住院顧這個病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
17483.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
17512.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
但是剛剛其實也有委員特別有提到啦其實我們的長照安排假我想可能要請一下這個我們的深漢部長我想這個長照安排假的這個必要性那我提到一點就是過去我們可以說大家多子多孫多福氣這個兄弟姊妹可以大家一起輪流來照顧其實真的就會所謂的比較不會有少子化的問題但現在不是現在真的不是然後再來我們講四成的僱主其實認同長照安排假的一個必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
17513.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
17527.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
他們也認為其實要留住這些所謂的比較資深的一些中階的幹部對公司來講是有更好的一個有利的一個發展那但是問題是我們現在在這個目前性別平等工作法當中的家庭照顧假只有7天 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
17528.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
17547.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
然後另外呢跟我們的市價並起來大概就是14天但是我要提到一點我們大家也思考一下就是長照安排假其實不是要全職的看護而是有時候真的突然突發事件的時候他可能會需要兩三個小時比較零碎的破碎的一個時間但是我們怎麼樣在短暫的讓他們能夠在接手照顧工作同時安排妥當之後他能夠再重新的返回職場那這段的緩衝期我們的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
17557.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
17572.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
抱歉 抱歉我把你撬起來你可能沒時間等候不是他站起來我跟郭文維回答就是說就像剛剛時務長說的因為現在長照3.0其實也正在努力的盡量大幅縮短這些相關的空窗或者是去協處的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
17573.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
17597.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那我們會來看衛福部他會針對長照3.0後的這些需求的樣態做出評估以後我們再來綜合思考是不是要透過一些工作的制度職場的適度來去回應這樣的需求那這需要一個綜合評估的過程好那我們希望儘快如果有一些比較具體的一些計畫或者是進程再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝郭玉琴委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
17606.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
17608.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
謝謝主席主席我請一下勞動部紅部長有請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
17615.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
17635.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
因為現在就是家庭外籍幫傭可能申請的資格算是非常的嚴格啦必須要家裡有三個六歲以下的小孩子才可以申請 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
17636.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
17657.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
現在的制度當下的制度這個制度就是形同虛設因為一個家庭有三個小孩都很困難的何況是三個六歲以下的所以行政院大概就已經拍板要放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
17660.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
17676.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
可是這一下子就放寬成家中只要有一名未滿12歲的兒童就可以申請是不是現在政策方向是這樣可是每一個月必須要繳交就業安定費大概5000塊那勞動部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
17679.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
17702.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
統計大概適用的家庭有144萬戶應該是符合資格的所以大概在下個月13號就開始申請那我有一些問題請教跟部長討論一下就是說我們有資格放寬了可是根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
17704.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17710.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
近期的民調指出台灣的女性假如聘僱外籍榜樣有 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17713.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17737.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
就是有四成沒有就業的人大概僅僅會有四分之一的人返回職場顯示這個放寬家庭看護工的部分對於振興理性的就業率好像成效有限那政策上路以後大概可以提高多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17738.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17748.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
根本說沒有就是希望我們提高讓現在可能沒有工作的女性返回職場或能夠投入到這個職場裡面工作但我們有很多相對應的計劃在執行那當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17753.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17778.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
外籍帮佣制度的这个心智或者说放宽其实它主要的目的我们自己在看它主要的目的其实是比较是在这些目前已经是双薪家庭的劳工里面那他们可能常常会遇到他照顾家庭照料家务然后跟他的工作里面会忙不过来会焦头烂额的状况所以我们比较是希望说这个如果你 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17779.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17798.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
願意請或者是你有條件請然後你想要請的話讓他可以因為要照顧家務而必須要離開職場的人數更減少所以主要是我們是希望讓更多的雙薪家庭他們可以更安心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17799.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17817.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
工作然後對於家務的部分對家庭的部分能夠也可以減緩他們照顧跟這個做家務的壓力所以就是安心工作然後家庭減壓那我現在講的就是因為有一部分婦女因為現在單負責家庭照顧的責任嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17818.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17835.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
所以她並沒有投入職場嘛我現在是想說等到新制上路了以後呢部裡面這邊應該要有相對應的措施跟政策來鼓勵或輔導這些想要投入職場的女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17835.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17853.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
根本說明我們其實我們也一直在規劃甚至接下來會來精進這些婦女二度就尤其二度作業的婦女回到職場相關的計畫我想我們已經規劃到一個程度近期應該就會來做這個精進計畫的公布好那放寬了外籍看護 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17855.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17876.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
大概對於對於現在現在的從事保姆工作的的人呢可能會有一些一些衝擊會不會如果都沒有任何配套的話可能會有會有一些在他們可能服務時數上或服務案員上面可能會有一點影響這可能會有所以這是為什麼要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17877.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17893.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這個配套措施的原因那你們目前有配套嗎因為4月13號就上市了我們其實這個配套大概怎麼樣部長簡要說第一個是我們會來協助讓這些托育人員開發更多的案源那增加他們勞務服務的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17895.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17909.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那所以衛福部這邊其實也有相關的托育的媒合的平台那勞動部這邊我們也會針對家事的工作者本國的家事的工作者來建置這個媒合的平台讓他們找到更多可以服務的機會這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17910.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17935.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那也包括我們可能也可能把他轉為育兒指導員我想那個衛福這邊也有討論是不是能夠讓他能夠投入到育兒指導員的工作那勞動部這邊我們也目前近期其實也推動這個企業托育的政策企業托育政策可能也會創造更多托育相關的職缺那我們也會主動的來看假設他有意願的話就是現在的從事保姆工作的相關人員就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17936.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17959.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
保姆或托育員相關的如果他有機會如果他有意願的話那我們都可以願意進一步的來增加他的這個工作的這個勞務市場所以這個平台的建立就是很重要然後怎麼讓這些人不要因為因為移工政策的改變反而讓他們的工作有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17962.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17987.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
時間沒有關係我最後跟部長討論一下長照安排價就是說現在我們長照安排價是不是部裡面這邊的看法是怎麼樣我看民團呼籲除了必須要儘速推動以外還包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17988.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18016.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
30天六成薪的假還有150天無薪彈性請假對民營團體或各界其實的訴求跟期待我們都清楚了那但這部分我們只是跟衛福也在討論因為衛福部的長照3.0剛上路那過去其實很多在長照在協助處理的過程裡面可能會有的空窗或者一些需求的狀況其實可能也會做蠻大程度的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18016.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18041.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
那應該衛福部這邊目前也在盤點這個長照三年上路以後這些改善的狀況就是這空窗可能會縮短那可能會縮到多短這可能需要一點時間去做盤點也把需求的樣帶盤出來那我們再站照這樣子盤點的狀況大概再綜合的來思考那是不是要透過一個職場的制度或工作的制度來去做相關的因應但這部分確實是需要一些評估的過程對 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18044.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18071.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
部長是這樣子因為台灣就是根據你們114年的調查有超過六成的勞工會因為家中長輩有長照需求考慮離職所以長照安排假好像是一個必須要做的要走的政策那有四成的雇主贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18073.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18101.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
現在問題是在大概要抓多少天數啦懂我的意思嗎所以這要看需求的樣態對這要看新的我們長照制度上路以後需求的樣態到底還有多少需求這部分確實是需要跨部會一起來做討論對就是部長的意思是長照3.0國家的長照制度推的 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18102.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18126.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
越好長照安排價的需求就越低嘛就是說可能就沒有這麼多大家讓他很煩惱的時間啦對啦就是說長照3.0我再講一次長照3.0覆蓋面越廣空窗期越短連接的越緊密需要的長照安排價就 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18127.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
18144.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
天數可能我們在討論的時候就相對可以短一點嘛是不是這樣所以目前你們可能也沒有也沒有長照安排價的內容的想像想要推動的初衷我們是了解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
18146.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
18166.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
你們會贊成去推我們還是跟委員說明還是我們要先做這個需求的評估這個新的長照制度下的需求的評估需求我剛才已經講了你們的調查是六成以上的老公會因為家中長輩有長照需求而考慮彼此 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
18167.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
18178.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
就像剛剛衛福部有回答過去可能你從出院到有長照的支援可能要50天左右可是他們現在大幅的把他縮短到4天3天可能後面還在縮短長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
18181.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
18194.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
不僅限於出院的不只對所以有各種樣態所以這些各種樣態我們要先去做了解跟理解不然因為時間的關係我大概講一下就是說我們當然希望長到3.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
18197.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
18213.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
蛻變以後可以覆蓋面更廣一點可是呢 承讓安排價的部分你們可能也必須要我們都會綜合的思考給你 及早做思考那至於我覺得就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
18216.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
18243.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
我向來主張勞工跟企業必須要同時兼顧那天數的部分你們可能在討論的時候也要一併就是長短啦假如說我在看台灣高齡化的速度還有長照3.0的覆蓋面長照安排價一定會經常被提出來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
18246.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
18261.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
你們應該要及早做討論跟因應好不好謝謝委員提醒謝謝補習謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員發言鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接著請李昆城委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
18271.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
18272.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
謝謝主席我們請勞動部紅部長有請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
18282.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
18308.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
李委員好部長好今天稍微特別安排這個題目其實大家也都在關心長照的照顧價剛剛楊教委員也有提到應該很多委員都提到目前還在考慮這個評估的主要的原因在哪裡第一個就是因為任何的制度會先去評估它的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18309.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18335.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那一定有需求啊但是需求有的量長或短所以現在的狀況是因為這個第一個長照3.0剛剛上路那過去長照3.0也是希望就像剛剛楊委員講希望它的覆蓋面也讓過去可能更多那種空窗期的部分可以縮短所以我們其實現在也在跟衛福部在討論想要了解說這個整體長照制度目前其實已經覆蓋到什麼程度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18336.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18347.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
那它的空窗的部分或者是需要銜接的部分還有多少的需求要需要多少時間這部分會需要一點時間來評估因為包括長照三年政策它其實也是持續的推進這需要半年的時間來評估嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18349.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18377.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
這部分可能要跟衛福這邊討論一下我們可能會需要一點時間因為這個政策也是新的政策在往前推進你講的是長照3.0這個政策但是我現在在講的就是說這個長照照顧假這個不是百分之百同樣的一件事情但是這兩件事情是有蠻大的相關的比方說過去如果空窗期是50天的時候那它的需求就蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18378.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18392.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
可是如果空窗期大幅縮短的時候它的需求可能就會降低一些所以這件事情本身的評估會跟整個大的長照制度的狀態會有高度的關聯那我請一下石部長好了來那您這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18395.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18418.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
因為其實有需要啦因為我們照顧小的其實照顧得都不錯了嘛那現在就是說長者或是需要照顧也不一定是長者需要照顧的這些長照的這些人跟委員報告大概有兩種狀況啦一種狀況就是說剛要進入長照的每年會有一些因為因病啊然後之後就失能然後需要進入長照服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18418.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18443.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
大概我們推估大概這一年大概有三萬多名像類似像這樣這裡面比較嚴重的就是我們在這個嚴重度在七八級的大概20%那這些就是很需要這個還沒有長照進來之前家屬要自己照顧所以我們在盡量的縮短這個中間的空窗期另外一種是像高齡化社會像偶爾會發生事情所以才會剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18444.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18470.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
洪部長在提的是到底我們針對的對象是哪一些那就會影響到他的需求量有多大後端的影響如何配套那到底是以這個架的方式來形成呢還是要以這個留職停薪的方式來做這個我們可能需要再一點時間來把它我當然知道就是說會一點要需要時間那我的意思就是說那你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18471.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18489.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
需要多久時間來檢視說譬如說長照3.0這個政策做了之後那我們這一個長照的照顧的空窗期能夠縮短然後呢接下來再來考慮譬如說洪部長這邊來考慮說那我們是不是要有這一個長照的照顧假是不是大概順序是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18490.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18512.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
是跟委員說明在長照2.0的時候我們是從這個空窗從51天縮短到去年是大概3.66天平均那所以前面這裡我們已經大幅的縮短可是在接下來要壓縮當然它的那個挑戰性就會更高我們的目標是希望看今年能不能讓它縮短到差不多兩天左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18513.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18528.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
實務部長的一個目標那其實如果這個空窗期縮短的話其實資方的接受度也會提高是所以說那我再請教一下洪部長對所以就像剛剛實務部長說的就是說我們也在看它縮短跟實施的狀態如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18530.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18551.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
這會對於需求的評估上面會很高的關聯你如果是五十幾天的時候那這需求就非常大那如果現在是四天還是剩兩天甚至更短的時候那這個需求的評估就會不一樣所以我們去做這個制度的研議的時候當然第一件事情會先針對需求上面去做一個定量或定性的理解這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18552.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18576.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
我們還是會比較關心的比如說這個需要半年的時間先看看部長還是覺得說我們是不是空窗前應該收到兩天這個是你的目標嘛對不對那如果說收到兩天大概需要多少時間然後需要多少的費用然後四天的話需要多少我想這個應該這個紅布朗這邊應該是能夠按照這一些參數把它模擬出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18577.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18595.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
我覺得還有一個部分就是樣態就是哪些情境有這個虛假因為這裡面會有個到底是大家在討論的是一個個別的價還是比較快狀的流停因為國際上可能都有但是個別的價的話其實也蠻多看到它是比較是無心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18596.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18621.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
沒有關係我覺得這些都可以列入考慮所以我的意思是說這個這件事情的討論的前提是需要對於樣態做更精確的了解到底是需要一大段快狀的時間還是是需要比較零碎的個別的天這就不太一樣OK好我本來還要再問就稍微已經站起來了因為今天也推了比較久了好啦就不耽誤大家的時間了好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18623.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18634.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
好 謝謝李坤城委員 接下來請劉...葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在 接著請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請洪部長 沈部長你休息一下一個鐘頭的時候再叫你 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
18651.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18669.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
部長今天謝謝主席特別排這個在職照顧者的知識體系視我完善然後長照3.0服務輸送與長照安排價的評估那從早上到現在部長聽到這麼多委員的意見有沒有評估出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18671.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18699.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那個跟劉遠說明就是剛剛其實我們一直在跟衛福部也在討論其實對於現在是長照的制度新的制度上路以後那接下來民眾尤其是受僱勞工他還會遇到的一些狀況包括他可能需要等待的時間或者是需要協助的樣態那我們希望有一個進一步的盤點以後那我們就一併的一起來評估說是不是要透過職場的制度工作的制度來去加以給予幫助跟支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18699.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18720.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
他會有一個評估的過程跟邏輯我是請教你說因為從一早到現在嘛對不對那你回答我最後就是有一個評估跟邏輯我聽不太懂意思當然一定要評估啊所以說你現在你內心從早上聽到現在是不是有一個方向一個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18722.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18736.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
我自己的內心當然我們當然認為也不是我自己的內心包括我們其實部裡面我想包括現在其實相關的部會其實都希望要因為照顧而離職的勞工可以減少我覺得這是一個最重要的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18737.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18762.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
因為我們最不樂見的事情就是勞工因為他要做家庭的照顧而必須被迫離開職場這其實對我們整體的勞動力產業的發展都不是好事我想這件事情是我們一個很重要的初衷的邏輯跟原則在這個地方但至於進行或者現在大家討論到是長照的安排要是假還是留庭還是用各種其他的做法我想這部分我們就是需要跟衛福部再做更進一步的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18762.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18792.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
所以簡單講你的內心深處到現在就是還沒有辦法做一個定奪啦應該是這樣嘛因為我看不進你的內心所以你講出來的時候就是還是沒有結論啦就是制度要走哪一個路徑去幫忙這件事情的確還需要研議對啦 研議多久其實今天因為剛剛委員會的時候林耀勤委員其實有一個提案那大概會有三個月的時間其實我們對於相關的可行性會做出一些研議三個月對就是今天早上的提案對對我知道會不會太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18793.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18816.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
你的內心會不會感受到這樣事有點過久了?是不是需要縮短一些時間?當然提讓我們尊重啦我為什麼這麼講?因為你自己講的也非常清楚嘛這個數據應該是正確嘛家庭照顧者公園總會提供的全國231萬的勞工有5人之一因為照顧失等失智身心障礙家人而影響工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18816.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18836.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
每年約有13.3萬因照顧離職這是勞動部的資料所以我們也是在這個基礎下面去做這些思考那這個數據如果是正確你看一年你引進多少外勞現在一年嘛 淨增加的大概幾萬大概3萬3、4萬你從國外引進3萬 每年狀況不一樣淨3萬 左右也沒關係嘛 對不對那我們每年因為這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18844.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18860.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
要照顧兒離子的有13.3萬你再怎麼進是3萬多你因照顧兒離子13萬多你看這個落差多大所以台灣永遠在缺工啊怎麼補你都補不到啊 補不滿嘛補不足啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18861.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18883.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
這是現狀這是現實嘛所以今天我想這個絕對不是要單純你跟衛福部部長兩個有共識之後的一個處理啦我覺得這個是可能要拉到整個院的層級來看待台灣的勞動力整體因為這一塊那個缺角的擴大的範圍是越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18885.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18898.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
還是你可以跟我講說三個月評估轉之後我們可能下半年度還是每年開始我們每年不會因為要照顧失能失智身心障礙的家人離此的這樣的一個數額它是會每年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18903.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18912.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
可能會減大致上剩下10萬那你剩下10萬那你補消融過來那就還好我這麼講我這麼講是也沒有算是很精準但是只是看到這個數據我們用數據來做對比來做評估來做因應嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18921.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18947.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
因為我這邊可能沒有辦法跟你說明年就一定會怎麼樣所以我說我們希望在這裡因為其實剛剛我們在講的很多的概念其實我也都是完全同意的那也是我們的一個方向跟目標但對於具體的做法跟制度的路徑那要做哪個選擇這的確我們會需要一點時間來去做這部分的評論尤其這也是需要跨部會的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18949.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18958.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
我再用一個對照,我是覺得部長絕對有那個魄力,包含市部長都是非常有魄力,做事情的這種因應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18960.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18984.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
過去累積上的經驗我看到都是很正面的也是很快速的你看嘛 你承擔起來有拿出魄力再改革就會看到成果一月期運營價從過去必需一個月然後申請單位一個月改為一日來申請所以將近兩個月而已藍心的申請比例從過去的全年27.8%大幅增加到44.3% |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18986.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
19005.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
女性從72.2降到55.6這兩個剛好卡巴起來就男性提高16點多女性降16點多也讓整個照顧小朋友的責任不會只有著重在女性的身上對新手爸媽而言我想這個對家庭的整個融合啦然後對小朋友的親子等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
19006.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
19028.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
其實都是很正向的這樣的發展這個就是有魄力啊這個就是政策趕快來做不管從幾個面向來做處理的時候那一實施出來我們就看到這樣的一個效益跟成果的展現嘛所以我才會在總執行的時候也特別跟院長提這個事情嘛然後也希望說原本要0到3歲那我們很多的這種規範是0到6歲那為什麼不能提高到6歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
19033.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
19052.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
對不對部長也欣然的答應我所以我們其實現在也在對於要把這個適用的範圍擴大然後再做研擬對這個我們就可以這麼快速來做因應來做處理也看到這樣成效那我們現在全國缺工這麼嚴重然後每年還要引進外勞將近三萬出 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
19054.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
19083.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
好左右然後你們又要去開放這個什麼這個這個家庭的外勤搬家12歲以下的今天有很多委員提出這樣的一個討論嘛對不對姑且不論這個政策的精準與否嘛那我們可以看到我記得次長那天有講一句話了齁他是這麼講他講說李氏這是李氏的答覆的各國生意率涉及因素複雜提高生意率並為列為放寬家庭搬家的主要政策目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
19084.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
19097.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那護療戰略也不是考量重點因為已經有其他政策在推動女性勞產力了開放外籍幫佣是在眾多協助安心續留的政策裡面再多加一項選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
19099.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
19122.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
這你們主動說話嘛安心續留安心續留難道不是用於在本勞的身上嗎當然當然這是我們的目標這個我們就我們就好像好像事業你們就要你們就要處理的嘛對不對就要執行的嘛那你跟我講你這個研擬多久啊評估多久啊在你內心深處啊放了多久嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
19126.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
19150.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
今天還要有勞林月琴、渣偉再提一個臨時提案要求你們三個月他有沒有刺激到你的內心深處對廣泛的每年因為要照顧家人不管是知識人身心障礙而必須被迫離職的13.3萬的勞工而言情何以堪 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
19151.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
19160.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
每天有十幾萬的 十幾萬 十幾萬 十幾萬的你一天補三萬 補三萬 補三萬三天有超過 超過三十萬的所以你勤勤勤勤的在嚴重的時候站在勞動的主管機關人力的整個這樣的一個穩定安心蓄流的權穩之下這事情你沒有辦法在你的內心深處放太久 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
19182.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
19207.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
今天沒有排這個案,坦白講,很多事情我們沒有辦法去凸顯出來。那今天已經排出來了,大家就從各個角度來做一個思考。我就單純從這個角度,因為台灣欠缸,欠到你想不到的嚴重就對了。然後以農業外勞而言,大家都非常清楚嘛,對不對。那頭照有照到什麼程度? |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
19209.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
19228.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
然後這幾天的媒體陸續在報導以前淘寶外勞就是補足農業這一個勞力不足的部分那農民部這邊也積極的在統一主管機關的申請的量能在擴大人數在擴大嘛但是怎麼擴大你都補不夠啊你都補不夠,那幾十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
19235.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
19254.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
將近十萬以下你一年我就補多少六千每年又六千以下你不是每年六六千喔那個落差現在一萬二還是一萬八王子差不多一萬五左右上下嘛對不對然後現在實際上有在台灣的農田裡面實際上的這些逃跑外老將四十萬左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
19256.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
19265.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
你如果不處理暗示,遇到疫情的時候又不敢處理,現在是要處理,現在又流氓時期了,又流氓時期,對嗎?現在又不處理暗示的時候,這個逃走在我們台灣的國土裡面,已經有一定天堂的經驗了,所以他還自己活動,白天在台灣的農民宿營, |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
19286.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
19302.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
講給介紹,他快做快整快修快處理看得我們中的,因為他不知道他看不到他未來在台灣還可以待多少天拚一天賺一天就是多一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
19304.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19321.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那這樣的惡性循環情況之下,很多的台灣的整個農業狀況,它就會持續的惡性的循環,不停止啦。好,那我把這個問題拉回來,我是對照說,你針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19324.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19340.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
應價的整體的這樣的一個放寬然後鼓勵更多的這些新手的爸爸媽媽來提出這樣的申請我們看到這樣成效所以我們希望下半年度我們就可以擴大這樣的一個範圍跟鏈局讓更多人都有這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19342.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19366.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
這樣的一個機會來提出這申請對整體社會而言對每一個家庭而言都是一個正向的事情那我們現在要來處理這些非常辛苦的期待可以提出這個照顧假申請的我們勞工的朋友我覺得我們的速度一定要加快我們會自己來演繹你看嘛日本我們多都是仿照日本對照日本比較日本學習日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19367.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19396.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
人家1999年就提出93天的有薪照顧假他們是在2008年邁入超高齡社會人家提早高檔人家做這些事情這坦白講我是用一個數據來做比較不一定進入到超高齡社會才必須要做這些事情但是台灣是2025嘛進到超高齡社會我們沒有提早我們還是7天並7天的施假真的有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19398.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19416.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
對不對 七天 又多一個七天你要看留言嗎 我幫你看一下喔今天你宣導留言啦在去年的10月13 播一個宣傳家庭照顧假的文章那請部長來看嘛照顧假就照顧假 試假就試假為什麼要一起計算讓人之有機會在那邊囉哩啪嗦 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19418.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19427.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
然後主管不准部署請照顧假說他的單位不准請就是只能以施加7天還對部署瘋狂咆哮標罵不然就滾去別單位所以以部長的積極做事的態度跟那個因應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19446.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19472.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
處理的方式我覺得這件事情真的不能拖了是真的不能拖了我們會盡快來研議產業或許有一些不一樣的意見產業也缺工啊你這個育嬰價的部分其實你調查起來是產業基本上也都支持嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19473.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19484.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那天在院會答詢的時候花了一些力氣說服所以在你的累積經驗裡面只要花了一些力氣應該就可以來說服這個家庭照顧假應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19488.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19510.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
應該可以快速的來做一個抵高吧把這個換為把這個任期然後讓台灣的勞工不用不會再看到這種數據每年因為有13.3萬就五分之一的勞工五分之一的勞工裡面又有13.3萬因為照顧因為要照顧家裡的私人私事等對象而被迫離職我們如果這個會期可以決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19516.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19526.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
把伴拿出來部長的內心深處應該是朝這個方向那我們下半年度就可以實施那我們明年就可以馬上看到成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19547.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19570.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
謝謝劉謙國委員發言 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在 接著請陳瑩委員發言謝謝召委 麻煩請石部長跟洪部長 麻煩兩位部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19576.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19602.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
这位好部长好两位部长好那我们今天讨论这个长照安排价的可行性原理我有看到这个媒体的一则报道引述的是日本早就早自1999年依育儿介户休业法提供93天67%的这个资金的这个家庭照顾价那我想要请教一下日本有这样的法律劳动部 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19603.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19613.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
清楚嗎那媒體報導之後勞動部的官員有沒有向部長報告日本這個法案的實質內容還有執行的成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19615.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19632.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
跟委員報告委員提到的這部分其實應該是他們留庭的部分他們其實應該有點像他們的這個他們叫介護休業那這部分是留庭的比較是留庭的概念那假的部分他們其實也有可是他比較是無心的部分對 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19633.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19659.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
所以你看整體那個他們執行成效怎麼樣有去看嗎有特別去看他們的執行成果我們可能還要再對執行的成果做進一步的了解但就制度上面我們是有去掌握的對因為他們執行成效好壞這個是值得你們好好去研究一下他們的留庭的部分請的部分是比較低是比較低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19660.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19686.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
好那我就把问题抛出来这个是你们要去注意的那接下来就是我们台湾现在已经有这个家庭照顾假了那原则上是7天可以并入到这个市假共14天那不挤薪但是也不可以影响到全勤那现在呢又提出有挤薪的长照安排假那事实上 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19687.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19705.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
實際上就是這個家庭照顧假那我要請教洪部長說其實我想要請教的是兩位部長就是說如果假如我們今天推動的這個通過了兩種假都同時存在的時候那兩位部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19706.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19730.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
又是刚好是这个又是事业单位的这个雇主那你会优先安排没几星的家庭照顾价还是要几星的长照安排价我想先听一下其实可能还是要看室友跟对象因为家庭照顾价他的范围是比较广的对 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19733.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19746.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
就是他發生的室友是什麼就比方說他如果是說他突然他要做小孩的照顧那這會是他的這個對象跟室友他會是一個選擇所以會要看他的室友 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19747.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19772.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
所以你要看你会他有员工请假了那对啊你要优先准他准他这个没有几薪的还是有几薪的但是要看他的室友就是说他的室友是那如果都如果都符合那你要先你是雇主你会先给哪一种假现在常常安排假不是我们现在还在讨论的事情吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19773.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19782.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
所以说假如通过的话我现在说假如通过的话其实我觉得可能会要跟因为这个问题都是你们会面临到的问题嘛我觉得可能要跟老公一起讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19783.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19806.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
對你如果還要討論那施部長看法怎麼樣跟委員說明如果從我們早上在討論的這個長照安排下比較像有一些比較概念上比較像說因為這個家庭剛開始有一個需要長照服務的私人的家屬的時候那需要有一些安排跟適應 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19807.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19823.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
所以他可能都是屬於第一次的這個概念所以跟家庭照顧假有點不一樣家庭照顧假可能是他已經變成是長照的對象但是他有時候需要譬如說他家裡的這個外勞他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19826.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19847.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
離職或者是什麼他要回去照顧他一下類似像這樣不過回過頭來講因為一個是有薪一個無薪那就要看這個企業主一定會考量成本那如果這個薪資是這個保險給付的跟是他要去負負擔當然這中間就會有不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19848.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19866.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
所以我想這一題主要是這個人性的分析站在就是說雖然好像是從僱主的角度去看但是這個直接受害或受惠的就是要請假的勞工所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19869.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19887.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
因為其實因為我們現在在討論因為我們把家庭照顧假跟這個長照安排假把它分開那分開會有分開的問題好那所以也為什麼分開今天衛福部就必須得坐在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19888.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19906.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
好那但是因為日本整個是把它放在一起那這個範圍擴大了就其實在程序上仔細去研究其實可能是可以少掉很多不必要的困擾好所以所以我就點出來這樣子啦就認真想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19907.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19926.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
好這個很簡單就是雇主的心態是什麼因為我們要推動這個那你一定要知道人家的心態人家的想法人家的問題你才可以這個功無不克嘛那所以這個很簡單的問題我相信大部分的雇主如果這個有選擇的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19927.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19957.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
大部分正常的都會從這個那個沒幾星的價先先給嘛這很正常啊好 池部長你可以先請回回座認真聽好那所以啊這個實際上的問題在於這兩種價的差別那我們光從字面上去理解一般民眾可能會搞不清楚那既然是長照安排適用的條件是不是就是說長照服務的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19958.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19970.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
但是這個長照的這個中央主管機關是衛福部也是今天的苦主我們再看來安排給架的這個中央主管機關勞動部那將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19974.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19989.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
給假的申請呢通過與否又是事業單位要去要去決定的事情但是事業單位他有沒有能力去認定長照的標準他有沒有這個能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19991.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
20007.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
我想他們比較會看數字那萬一不同意給假的時候那勞工呢可能又告上地方政府勞工主管機關然後又是勞檢又是開罰然後再訴願事情恐怕就是沒完沒了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
20008.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
20027.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
嗯就是說我只是我想我們在這裡很單純我可以去預期預見一些未來可能發生的狀況那我不知道部長的這個看法是怎樣你們這樣看起來到底是在解決問題造福民眾還是最後又製造一堆問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
20029.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20052.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
跟委員說明其實現在關於這個長照安排價這個概念跟他的範疇說實話就像今天委員會其實大家都還在討論這其實並不是甚至還有些概念不是很清楚對就是他不是大家不是已經把它界定得很清楚就像剛剛時務長說的你是要針對這個一個家庭他的長照初次長照安排來給還是那後面的其他呢還是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20054.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
20068.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
這個有一個勞工說他想要自己回去照顧長輩那這要給嗎所以他的涵蓋的範疇跟適用的範疇其實還在大家還在討論這其實還在即時管理的過程所以還沒有那麼快就界定 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
20069.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
20095.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
對我另外再拋出一個問題這個你們可能大家都沒有想到就是說我們是不是要再考慮這樣的假這樣的補貼對於這個家人沒有長照安排的需求然後是不是會產生不公平的現象增加30天六成薪那延伸出來的勞務呢可能就要有沒有申請的這些有上有每天去上班的勞工朋友去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
20096.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
20119.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
或者甚至雇主自己要下海去做这都是有可能那势必会增加其他人的工时和工作量那换句话说是不是对于不申请或者没有申请需求的劳工朋友变成是一种变相的这个惩罚性条款因为他事情变多可是他钱没有变多还是你们有想说劳动部有 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
20120.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
20146.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
有會去想這個配套對於工作量增加要去share請假的人的工作的這些人那我們是不是有什麼樣的配套第一個當然是謝謝委員的提醒不過的確這整個議題其實它的評估跟研議其實還沒有走到現在委員講的這個段落那目前其實還在比較前期的需求的掌握跟評估了解的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
20148.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
20163.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
那當然各界的聲音因為有些會期望有些也會有一些覺得要注意的事情那我覺得這些事情都應該被綜合的思考跟討論所以今天我們的這個我們的質詢其實也是本席也提出很多的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
20164.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
20192.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
好那我想這個很多都是兩面刃的問題那我覺得身為部長你應該要可以預見未來你會面臨到什麼當我們要做一個決策的時候那你有一個好的配套如果說今天來share的share掉其他請假同仁的這些工作的同仁那他們可以有獲得比較好的這個怎麼樣的獎勵或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
20193.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
20216.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
一些津貼那當然我想對其他人是比較公平但是這些錢要從哪裡出還是要從雇主被扒一層皮再出一次好這個都是大家要去思考的那本席要強調的是就是說讓有需要的請假的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
20217.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20241.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
让有需要的人去请假那特别是这个劳动领域的这个假是两面任的问题但这也是非常专业而且很严肃的课题啦假要怎么给怎么放不仅涉及到这个工时的弹性调整也影响到整个经济的发展那如何兼顾同样的就是说你怎么样两边都顾得很好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20242.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20264.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
我想同样的价对于这个热单滚滚的这些产业影响到了这个产能不足的问题对于这个关税冲击然后订单减少不得不采取减班休息的产业他们可能也会增加这个人事成本负担然后影响到企业的生存那企业无法生存的时候呢他最后 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20266.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20293.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
回过头来伤害到的吃亏的还是劳工过去我们是为了劳工的七天假已经付出社会很惨痛的代价所以不得不慎重就是说我们98%都是中小企业那企业内有没有能力去因应也是需要去思考评估的你不能说你没有任何评估然后就贸然立刻行动 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
20294.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
20322.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
好那最後呢本席還是要回到就是說現有的這個家庭照顧價的這個實施成效去講那請問勞動部114年家庭照顧價的這個申請的人數或比例是多少那個跟委員報告我們114年統計那個調查員工有意願申請家庭照顧價是4.2%那沒有沒有意願沒有需求家庭照顧價是95.8% |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
20324.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
20351.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
所以不到一成這是我們的調查這是醫院的調查並不是實際上面的狀況那有沒有什麼指標來衡量就是說7天的家庭照顧假不夠了那需要再延長然後需要去擠薪有沒有跟委員說明第一個因為當然外界很多討論家庭照顧假要不要擠薪的問題那可是擠薪的話就會分兩個第一個是要由僱主出還是要由政府出 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
20353.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20372.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
那如果不由雇主出的話只要由政府出的話那是當然所需要的費用其實這個所需要的經費就蠻龐大的那這的確會需要考慮目前政府的一些相關的財政負擔能力的問題我想在這邊再跟你們問個資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20373.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20401.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
就是說因為我們現在正在執行的這個勞動政策那政策執行好不好需不需要調整勞動部都有責任跟義務就是說讓我們全國民眾來了解嘛那這其中12歲以下的幼童跟年長的這個照顧請假的比例你們清楚嗎有沒有資料12歲的幼童跟年長照顧對說為了這事情的請假還是我們可能要再調一下資料看一下有沒有這樣相關的統計手上有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20403.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20423.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
你們有算有有統計過嗎如果沒有就說沒有我意思是說顧老跟顧小把它給分開來看的話他的比例大概多少我們可能要再調一下資料好你們有沒有做過這樣的統計有或沒有你們可以我們就是現在是有三歲六歲的受雇人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20424.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20441.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
那個時間的關係你們這個後續 因為跟你們要這個是不知道你們有沒有統計過因為我們在外面也看不到這樣的統計資料如果沒有也希望你們這個部分要好好去看一下那希望勞動部可以釐清所謂的家庭照顧跟長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20442.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20463.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
安排有什么差别那如果劳动部认为说支持长照安排价确实有需要那你们有责任告诉全国的民众全国的产业界跟老公朋友现行的家庭照顾价不足因应长照服务的需求了那未来两种价是不是要整并还是有优先顺序 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20464.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20473.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
先请完家庭照顾假再来请长照安排假这也是值得你们去研究的议题所以希望你们劳动部可以谋定而后动谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20483.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20497.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
好謝謝陳議員的發言那本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊瓊英徐欣盈邱振鈞蘇清泉所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登空報現在做以下決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20498.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20514.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已書面回覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會 |