| IVOD_ID |
17293 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17293 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-5-35,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-23T08:37:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-23T13:44:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:06:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d9cf9f4066bc87ed17d4c9ecc7ce864bb44e0a145e6cc6f0faf43c1edbc1747ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。三、本院國民黨黨團擬具「強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案」案。(3月23日、3月25
日及26日三天一次會)） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:37:42 - 13:44:00 |
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報告聯席會初席委員25人已足法定人數那現在開會請議事人員宣讀討論事項討論事項 並按審查一行政院函請審議強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案案二 |
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本院台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案案3.本院國民黨黨團凝聚強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案案宣讀完畢本次法案審查如果有委員提出修正動議請在今天23日12點前送交議事人員來方便會診印發那我們現在介紹在場的委員跟與會的官員 |
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陳永康委員謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝王安祥委員陳俊宇委員王逸川委員謝謝顧立雄部長副參謀長黃志偉上將 |
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1421.098 |
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1448.583 |
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全民防衛動員署署長廖建興中將總督察室總督察長吳建忠中將參事石文榮中將政務辦公室主任孫立芳中將政治作案局副局長吳瑞迅少將軍備局局長林文祥中將 |
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1450.336 |
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暑季局局長謝清賢中將軍醫院代理局長陳元浩少將戰略規劃師司長黃文喜中將資源規劃師司長藍靜婷女士法律事務司司長吳義聖中將 |
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整合評估司模擬處處長汪春瑋新少相國防採購司主任趙雅萍中將能事參謀次事次長何佳雲中將情報參謀次事次長謝日生中將 |
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作戰級計劃參謀次市次長 連志偉總將後勤參謀次市次長 李鳳翔總將通信電子資訊參謀次市次長 謝俊山總將訓練參謀次市次長 郭俊德總將陸軍司令部參謀長 陳建義總將 |
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海軍司令部參謀長 邱俊榮中將工軍事務部參謀長 李慶蘭中將後備職務部參謀長 薛恩泉少將憲兵指揮部參謀長 文念忠少將陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長 梁永坤少將資通電軍指揮部參謀長 周文翔少將 |
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軍事情報局執行長李友康少將電訊發展室執行長林振偉上校國防大學教育長李成忠少將國家中山科學院研究院院長李士強中將財政部政務次長 |
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1610.22 |
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財富中心老闆清華次長國庫署副署長馬曉慧女士庫務管理組組長王淑儀女士債務管理組副署長邱美琪女士稅務部署副署長李志忠副署長 |
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1629.697 |
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基深行政署副署長楊純婷女士經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇欣先生社會發展部自動安全署總和貴大處署長李東儀署長 |
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1633.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1657.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
衛福部會計處檢驗視察鄭美琴女士社會及家庭署科長胡采慧女士保護參事廖江縣先生國科會工程技術處研究發處副處長郭晶女士行政院公共工程委員會企劃處代理處長謝基正處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1661.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1675.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
行政院主席總署副主席長陳慧娟女士專門委員陳台偉專門委員李雅雯神經部第二梯廳長陳振庸 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1682.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1703.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本次聯席會併案審查行政院函勤審議強化防衛練習及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據黨衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案及本院國民黨黨團拟據強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1704.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1712.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
現在請提案黨團代表做提案說明每人發言時間三分鐘首先我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表黃安祥委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1721.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1747.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
大家早 台灣民眾黨一向支持提升國防預算強化台灣整體戰力本黨科前主席也是第一位要求國家的整體國防預算需要達到GDP3%以上的總統候選人我們也堅決反對缺乏戰略邏輯違背財政紀律甚至規避國會監督的巨額特別預算我們主張特別預算的界限不能模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1748.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1769.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
應該回歸到一般性常態性的公務預算的處理項目就應該回歸於一般性的公務預算以符合財政透明跟長期規劃的財政機率近年來中華人民共和國對我國的軍事威脅持續的升高對台灣的形勢起成常態性的軍事壓迫面對這樣的安全情勢台灣民眾黨為了呼應 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1771.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1793.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
社會對強化國家防衛能力的期待提出這次的軍購相關的特別條例我們的版本羅列了清楚的軍購項目而且這些項目都是目前美方已經清楚表明的軍售項目另外我們也設計了一年一期編列條例通過後行政院須專報並經過立法院同意第二期特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1794.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1810.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
編列時也須並同提出採購進度、付款情形、裝備到貨情形等專案報告多重的制度保障人民辛苦的納稅錢不會被特別預算拒使佩戒而不知道用去何方我們支持國防但我們不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1810.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1838.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不清楚的國防以今年為例我們的國防的預算已經佔GDP的3.3%相較於日本的1.38%大韓民國的2.33%已屬相對高的水準對於預算的每一分每一毫都是人民辛苦的納稅錢在國家資源有限的狀況之下更應該精準使用而非任意擴張因此我們期待在委員會審查的程序中大家能夠支持本黨團提出的軍購項目清楚監督程序完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1839.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1843.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
嚴守財政紀律不亂編的特別條例版本謝謝接下來請國民黨黨團代表劉許廷委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1856.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1875.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝主席 各位同仁 各位媒體朋友 大家早安今天代表國民黨黨團進行軍國特別條例提案說明上個週末非核家園重大議題賴清德總統竟然神奇的轉彎甚至感謝立法院當初修正核關法 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1876.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1904.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這樣子的一個重大的政治宣示跟這樣的一個事件其實代表了在立法院常常討論很多被妖魔化被汙名化的議題跟主張其實不見得沒有道理當初在野黨團堅持要修正核官法的時候我們就是慘遭出征霸凌甚至被標舉要罷免這都是很重要的其中的理由但是到最後時間會給大家答案有一些主張是有道理的甚至在事後被證明那是有遠見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1905.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1932.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
今天軍工條例不外如是我們在野黨提出了不一樣的版本這個各黨在軍購的意見手段跟時程方面都略有不同我們站在在野黨的角色我們希望大家可以慎重理性的討論大家都支持提升國防戰力但是站在在野黨的立場我必須要非常清楚的跟國人同胞說明我們不能隨便同意空白授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1933.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1961.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們更沒有辦法接受一件啊照理來講應該要提早溝通而且詳細溝通的重大政治決策只因為總統一次的外媒投書就要被情緒勒索而被要求全盤接受我們如果接受那是愧對在野黨的責任跟角色因此不管是民眾黨也好國民黨也好分別提出不同的版本這個國民黨這邊要提醒第一這個龐大的這個特別條例院版的特別條例橫跨了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1962.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1989.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個總統任期甚至動用了下一個任期的預算這個真的符合權責相符任期對應的原則嗎第二這個巨額的財政支出其實已經造成了排擠效應對於我們的社福民生會不會造成衝擊呢社福民生預算會不會能順利的編列呢第三我們也要提醒商購跟自治的國防開支屢傳必端從過去的拉法業達政案到最近的裝潢公司買炸藥案 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1990.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2008.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
如果我們用特別條例一包通知所有的國防採購都開了綠色通道這樣真的適合嗎這個希望大家三思而後行因此本黨的相關的條例版本我們當然支持對美的合理軍購按發架書的進度來合理的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2009.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2037.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第一階段美方公布國會通過的發價書我們通通都有放進條例也算條例和附帶決裡面序名有任何新的發價我們可以立刻處理確保效率我們的版本也確保了執行時間的縮短第一個要符合任期對應的原則第二我們也希望趕快強化國防戰力最後我們希望這樣子的一個條例的審查不要被政治操作大家能夠秉於理性努力的溝通盡量的達成共識以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2041.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2043.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席 各位委員先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2067.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2094.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
強化防衛任性及不對稱站立計劃採購特別條例草案於今年3月6日赴為審查今天應要致大院委員會實施特別條例草案專案報告被各位委員了解本次特別條例整體規劃,敬請各位委員先進指教,以利於後續審議工作推展 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2095.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2123.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
相信各位委員都可以體會中共近年持續擴增軍力並逐漸升級灰色地帶威脅更經常以對台作戰想定進行針對性軍演以驗證其作戰計畫共軍由訓轉演,由演轉戰可能性提高加劇台海局勢的不穩定國軍為嚇阻共軍犯台,入力建軍備戰工作,過去十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2124.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2150.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
憑藉國防預算穩定成長,運用了公務預算與海空戰力提升特別預算籌獲多項武器系統,以具備基本不對稱戰力乃因敵情威脅陡身,國軍不對稱戰力整體數量、科技與作戰方式等必須隨之調整加入中共封鎖隔離可能性增加,國軍急需強化防衛韌性整備以確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2153.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2175.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
能夠維持續戰力為加速籌獲各項武器關鍵武器裝備本部提出強化防衛韌性及不增戰力計畫採購特別條例以提升國境整體戰力達成以實力捍衛國家安全之目標接續 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2177.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2185.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
戰略規劃師黃文綺中將就強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰略計畫採購特別條例查案內容向各位委員實施報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2197.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2214.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席各位委員大家好喬哈防衛任性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案報告前言中共近年持續擴張軍力加速軍事現代化各項新式裝備研製服役頻繁於區域執行揮帶洗腦及軍事演習島鏈國家紛紛提升國防預算應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2219.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2242.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
中共始終不放棄武力犯台,自2022年起,對我國採取之灰色地帶洗腦與針對性軍演、平視與強度增加,隨時可由訓轉演、由演轉戰,對我促然發動封鎖或突擊。我國必須強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力,以因應中共侵略行為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2244.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2266.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
面對敵情威脅日益嚴峻以及新型態戰爭趨勢國軍必須以科技先導加速武器系統現代化目前國軍聯合戰力規劃以科技取代人力火力取代傳統兵力為建構方向至重點與遠距精準機動致命及人工智慧之不對稱戰力為優先建置項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2269.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2279.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
近十年積極調升國防預算運用年度工預算與海空戰力特別預算採自製與軍購模式陸續籌貨愛國者防空飛彈系統天宮防空飛彈系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2285.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2295.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統、魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統、駝江級高效能艦艇、雄風反艦飛彈系統、雄生飛彈系統、標槍反裝甲飛彈、托斯2B反裝甲飛彈、ALTIS-600M攻擊無人機等不對稱戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2302.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2323.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
總體而言,國軍雖已建制遠距精準打擊防空制海之基本不對稱嚇阻能力,然而仍有大幅精進空間。國軍現階段必須充實現有作戰系統數量導入新興科技裝備,建制整合式戰場管理系統與提升國內軍備量能等精進做法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2325.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2346.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
若僅依賴年度公務預算,因受政府總體施政預算分配限制,全數獲得需耗費多年,將形成戰力缺口。因此,編列強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力特別預算,運用其資源集中、規模穩定之特性,一次性籌建可視戰力,促使中共不敢犯台。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2348.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2366.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
以上將報告國軍運用特別預算強化防衛作戰整體效能規劃建軍規劃重要考量因素使國人了解武器裝備所肩負之多重任務編列必要性及計劃周延性2.強化防衛作戰整體效能規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2368.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2384.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
一、整體防空及飛彈防禦就敵情威脅部分共軍武力犯台攻擊發起研判將以空中戰機、戰術彈道飛彈、遠程精準火箭對我軍實施聯合火力打擊最大威脅包含東風戰術彈道飛彈、航空器、韓無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2388.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2402.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
巡弋飛彈及遠程金輪火箭等企圖奪取台海制空權、削弱我軍防空量能及癱瘓我軍指揮管制以立即發動聯合三棲禁犯作戰行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2405.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2412.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
就國軍應對原則部分國軍逐年提升防空雷達性能以擴大徵收範圍增加預警反應時效並強化雷達系統機動力提升戰時存活率與指管韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2420.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2446.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
防空飛彈則採區域部署借重層防空火網搭配載空機對空中威脅實施防空攔截以確保行政軍事重要目標安全目前以愛國者飛彈、天宮飛彈、國家先進地對空飛彈系統也就是NASAMS復仇者飛彈、陸射艦二飛彈等防空系統建構高、中、低層重層防衛架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2447.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2466.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
為面對共軍飽和聯合火力打擊時我軍將面臨防空火網密度與攔截空城不足以及防空系統損耗導致攔截率下降無法達到整體安全需求因此就棄虛建制能力部分隨敵人攻擊手段不斷增強與多變 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2468.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2482.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
國軍防空系統需以建構具重層防禦、高度感知、系統整合及有效攔截等特性的強大防空火網。因此,本次特別預算規劃籌購自製強攻飛彈系統與各型反彈道及防空飛彈,並與現有愛國者、天弓與短程區域防空 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2491.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2513.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
系統搭配戰場管理系統完成防空火網系統的整合以提升整體防空與飛彈防禦效能你針對共軍各式無人機將以特別預算採購軟硬砂混合及可稀釋之反制無人機系統你提供全方位防護之台灣之盾有效反制共軍戰術彈道飛彈巡弋飛彈戰機及無人機等威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2518.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2534.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
前述情誌獲得需仰賴AI戰場管理系統鏈接現有及未來籌購之聯合防空先針系統以快速識別目標分析威脅指派任務單位接戰提高成功公算降低非必要之彈藥損耗 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2536.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2555.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第二部分就聯合反登陸方面在敵情威脅方面研判共軍藉由原火部隊隊友重要設施執行聯合火力打擊並以各型護衛艦掩護兩棲登陸船團等艦艇穿越台海航向預定登陸海灘同步於本島外海關鍵水道部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2559.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2566.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
潛艇以建立封鎖線並以海警船協助封控達到切斷外部戰略物資補給與軍事援助等目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2567.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2591.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因此國軍應對原則,國軍運用遠距監偵手段,掌握敵登陸主力指向,接岸機及空中監偵系統,持續追蹤敵動態,並運用聯合指管通知網情監偵與AI輔助決策支援系統,搭配各式武器裝備,形成各領域快速擊殺網,貫徹多域拒止,從成削弱之目標。 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2593.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2605.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
共軍航路階段我軍優先以火力取代兵力運用遠程火力對港口後勤集結點等目標執行火力打擊同時運用水面及水下無人載具遠程艱人無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2608.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2618.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
1.確定共軍艦艇海上位置,指引各式反艦飛彈及中遠程火力與巨子、池子削弱,及打亂其艦艇編隊。2. |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2618.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2626.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
共軍登陸階段,運用低空防空系統,掩護守備部隊,遂行防衛作戰,同時運用近程尖針型攻擊型無人機。 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2627.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2652.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
伸縮敵登陸地點與兵力部署,發揮擊身擊打功能,縮短作戰反應時效,並指引主戰部隊戰甲砲車,協同守備部隊對敵登陸部隊實施戰場掃蕩與提供攤岸周邊快速精準火力支援。作戰全程部署各類型無人機反制系統,以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2653.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2675.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
為以現有海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統、魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統、尖針型、攻擊型無人機等武器裝備的數量執行聯合反登陸作戰行動仍不足以應對共軍大規模登陸攻勢且缺乏可有效遂行去中心化指管能力是必要AI輔助決策與共同圖像經濟系統不易建立重層削弱之擊殺鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2677.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2698.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
而就氣區建置能力的部分首先籌購AI決策支援系統戰術網路及部隊快速勤船分享應用套件加速指揮決策與部隊勤船效益各類型艦艇無人機及無人艇部署於海軍快速有效識別敵船團位置提供指揮官下達接戰命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2699.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2722.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
海馬士多管火箭飛彈系統82套部署於陸軍執行遠距金屬火力打擊防空飛彈部署於陸空軍提升地面部隊中短程防空能力濱海艱爭型、濱海攻擊型無人機21萬架部署於陸海軍提供海上艱爭能力可對敵船團威脅發揮早期預警快速打擊縮短作戰反應時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2724.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2734.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
M109A7自走炮60門部署於陸軍提供快速精準火力打擊5N7反制系統部署於三軍部隊以有效發揮戰力防護效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2735.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2754.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
第三,在聯合國土防衛方面,就敵情威脅部分,共軍企圖藉優勢兵火力取得制空權並搶單成功後,同步由陸戰、空降及特種部隊佔領後方機場、港口及重大道路,掩護正規部隊遂行登陸、奪取各戰略要域與行任中樞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2755.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2774.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
國軍應對原則為,面對當前敵情威脅,需充分運用不對稱作戰與地形優勢條件。習法SR與AI決策支援系統,持續執管三軍各部隊遂行國土防衛,預判敵軍上路後進行方向,運用機動阻絕器材,阻止敵軍快速突入。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2775.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2794.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
破棋進入我軍預想間敵區運用反裝甲飛彈及其他火力手段擊毀各類型戰甲砲車運用偵打一體無人機以精確打擊方式不斷削弱敵戰力破棋行動失敗作戰全程部署各類型無人機反制系統以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2796.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2825.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
國軍需有大量尖針型攻擊型無人機,方可滿足旅籍含以下各級地面部隊,有效掌握戰場情勢,發揮擊針擊打效能。另,現有機動阻絕器材,托斯2B反裝甲飛彈、標槍反裝甲飛彈及ALTIS-600M攻擊無人機等武器系統,於執行聯合國土防衛作戰行動中,仍不足以應對共軍優勢兵火力持續攻擊,國軍將面臨武器彈藥在高消耗狀況下嚴重不足。 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2827.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2846.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
因此就氣區建置能力部分首先籌購各類型艦艇型無人機部署於地面部隊使用並建置AI決策支援系統、戰術網路及部隊快速情資分享應用套件與作戰全程藉由安全加密網路之多重情資傳遞建立排行以上層級之戰場共同圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2848.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2876.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
並匯集各項情資至AI決策支援系統以輔助指揮官戰術運用決心參考籌購海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統八舌桃部署於陸軍執行火力支援防空飛彈系統部署於陸空軍提升地面部隊中短程防空能力ALTIS-700M 1554架ALTIS-600ISR型478架反裝甲型無人機系統部署於各座彈區以發揮擊針擊打之精準堅定效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2877.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2887.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
M229A7自走炮60門部署於陸軍提供快速精准火力打擊另利用無人機反制系統部署於各地面作戰部隊有效降低敵小型無人機威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2889.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2909.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
在作戰持續量能準備方面就擴增自產量能部分考量戰時關鍵補給品消耗以及遭封鎖時之彈藥補給需求由於無人機、火炮、自製飛彈與彈藥等都必須要有充分自製與戰備存量等相關量能達到平時滿足國軍推動實彈化訓練、應練習義務役訓練後備教召、延長等訓號戰時維持軍備自給自足產能支持各級部隊發揮連戰韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2919.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2937.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
如未獲付特別預算將影響戰時高消耗彈藥供給能量降低防衛作戰持續能力補足戰備存量部分於擴增產線未完成建置前規劃以特別預算籌購重要急缺彈藥既有120公釐戰車炮、105公釐戰車彈、30公釐機炮彈、155公釐榴彈發射藥包及強力高能炸藥等需求一次性補充戰備存量以應對嚴峻之敵情威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2948.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2971.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
若逐年編列採購如此龐大彈藥增購需求,將排擠其他後勤維持費年度支出。在美方技術合作方面,鑒於美國防科技領先全球,我國需極力爭取共同研發與技術合作,避免武器裝備因新興科技發展迅速與科技迭代,產生性能落後與構型老舊等形式。 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2972.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2995.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
先獲得美方關鍵技術移轉,規劃籌購台美共同研發及合作生產之武器裝備系統,以加速我國軍工產業發展,並結合本土自製,打造飛鴻供應鏈。在建軍規劃重要考量因素方面,第一點,公務預算之限制性及編列特別預算之必要性。 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2998.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3008.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
國軍並計畫預算制度與兵力整建計畫推動各項軍事投資建案,每年依預算獲付額度優先滿足持續案,再決定新增納案需求。 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3009.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3034.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
目前持續重大按向機有M1A2T戰車海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統第一階段仁西式短程防空飛彈RTX600M攻擊無人機系統魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統索銀二港口擴建工程康定級艦戰鬥系統提升I2性能提升及採購I3飛彈新式高校機MQ-9B高高空無人機等 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3035.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3053.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
將於未來三年達到交運付款高峰期針對部分剛完成預約與大量備料投產的建案包含國家先進地對空飛彈系統、站管新型機動雷達換裝等也有龐大的預算需求且美方已表示相關案項均不得延後付款 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3054.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3072.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
限於中央政府總預算稅數規模有限以及政府各項施政計畫的排斥效應無法將戰備需求全數納入公務預算以115年為例軍事投資預算額度計有新台幣1616億元扣除優先支應以簽署合約之持續案1532億後僅84億元可供新增納案 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3081.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3095.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
若以本次特別預算自治其商購額度約三千餘億元平均每年約五百餘億元另後續新增案包含華社天劍二型飛彈天弓三型飛彈續購陸射艦二防空飛彈續購雄二雄三反艦飛彈續購國軍夜視鏡第二階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3101.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3125.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
跑滑道搶修裝備等長期性重大軍頭建案總需求亦高達700餘億元新台幣如未獲付特別預算不僅可納新增案項的額度有限另外對於暫時高消耗彈藥等作戰持續量能的需求若採逐年編列採購亦將排擠其他後勤維持費年度的支出降低防衛作戰持續力 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3126.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3141.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
總體而言,公務預算年度新增額度或持續額度,並不指引特別預算建案需求,將造成建案獲得時間延宕,形成戰力下行。第二點,所有軍頭建案必須符合國軍計劃預算制度。 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3143.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3157.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
國軍依據敵情威脅與防衛作戰需求制定聯合戰力規劃要項與五年兵力整建計畫蓄意建案作業程序完成建案文件的作業包含作戰需求、系統分析、騎乘工項及整理獲得規劃書 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3159.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3178.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
具以編列預算,在篆理特別條例申請特別預算,如為侵購案,在計畫過程中確認作戰需求後,即向美方遞交發架書需求信函。若美方於預算通過後,能為進行知會國會程序,應受台美機密法規規範列為機密案,是知會國會後轉為公開資訊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3182.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3206.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
令美方於智慧國會後,將軍購案發價書草案送交我國審議,我國需作戰需求及預算額度等條件,審視發價書內容,並與美方進行組建及附屬裝備向量的偵檢協商,以符合我國真實需求。此雙方簽署發價書後,使由美方與合約商進行生產意願。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3208.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3227.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
依立法院106年決議文,徐氏預算通過後,只能簽署發架書。本次特別預算中,托士2B反裝甲飛彈、標槍反裝甲飛彈、ML-09A7自走炮及海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統等四項,應以施惠國會協議提供發架書草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3228.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3257.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
為尚未通過特別條例及預算故本部特於3月12日請大院授權先行簽署發價書總體而言國軍建案作業程序是先完成整體評估與計劃作為再申請預算之系統化流程過程週延延緊針對軍公案發價書簽署前須先與美方完成綿密協調取得供收意願預估金額須預化貨裝期程等資訊須以完成建案作業程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3258.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3281.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
若要先獲得發料書時可執行相關建案程序,將使建案作為自愛難行第三點,因應新型態戰爭建立AI運用與無人系統戰力檢視惡霧與免疫戰爭,未來戰場將強化人工智慧與無人系統的作戰運用呈現智慧化、無人化、資訊化、科技與傳統作戰緊密結合之新型態戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3283.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3298.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
AI方面,可運用於決策資源系統,藉由數位化網路,彙整衛星、雷達、各類型武器裝備、無人機、第一線作戰人員、公開情資等多重感測系統所獲訊息,運用AI模型採集資料庫數據,執行敵軍當面各種動態徵後分析與比對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3305.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3323.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
快速篩選目標種類預測敵可能行動敵作戰中心與潛在執行風險建立戰場共同圖像具以深層不同行動方案輔助職位官下達決策相較傳統作業模式資料收集更廣處理速度更快分析更精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3325.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3351.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
無人系統作戰方面具備遠距遙控、籌載多元化、穿越地章的特性可強化情境深密度提供火力單元更快更直接情報來源亦可克服傳統火炮射程與死角對遠處隱蔽之敵實施精準打擊特別預算針對海上與地面作戰各階段大量籌購各類型艦艇、攻擊無人機及無人艇善用無人系統優勢加速無人化作戰轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3354.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3376.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
總體而言AI與無人系統相輔相成導入傳統作戰相可強化整體運用效能例如俄烏戰爭中烏克蘭運用無人機徵收敵情並以AI系統分析判斷俄軍指揮所與後勤補給點隱匿位置快速指派攻擊無人機與海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統實施精準打擊擊殺鏈從數小時縮短為數分鐘第四點 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3381.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3384.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
有效整合、徵收、打擊後製力等作戰有機體 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3385.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3411.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
面對中共多領域武力犯台之威脅形態國軍制定多域拒止、重騰削弱之聯合作戰準備方向針對中共聯合封鎖、聯合火力打擊、登陸作戰、陸上作戰等各階段犯台行動利用特別預算籌購遠中近程與艦艇專用各式艦艇無人機以及艦制戰術網路與部隊快速情資分享套件協和現有訊安、緩緩、連程等系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3414.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3429.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
構成綿密勤奸爭網路快速提供空中、海上、地面目標情資搭配人工智慧與決策資源系統即時指派反彈道、防空、反裝甲精準打擊與各式自殺型無人機部隊對目標發動攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3441.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3459.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
另外最重要的是需要有足夠支援防衛作戰全程的作戰持續力包含彈藥、火炸藥、信管及戰甲車等後勤支援能量皆需滿足作戰需求整體而言本次特別預算強化建制、徵收、打擊與後支力等三項戰力形成靈活韌性之作戰有機體強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3463.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3492.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
最後一點滿足長期作戰自主所需量能鑒於我國為海島國家中共可能封鎖本島周遭海域隔離外國勢力介入以切斷補給線導致我軍作戰持續力下滑為建置無人機本土自製量能提升防衛作戰韌性規劃籌購20萬架各類型無人機及無人艇藉由長期大量訂單鼓勵國內廠商挹注資金建立產能並自主研發除可滿足作戰持續更能同步打造飛鴻供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3494.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3522.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
另針對國內產能不足與國內無產能等兩類彈藥與重要軍品同步採軍商購併行模式籌貨以有效運營部隊日常訊號戰備彈藥短缺與戰號補充等需求南帶產線為建立前借年度公務預算分年籌補環部計集需編列特別預算籌貨一次性大幅提升彈藥存量及增建14條兵工產線以滿足戰時高消耗及平時訓練彈藥供給能量提升整體作案韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3524.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3541.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
寫語軍事投資效益並非單純以數字來衡量而是以建構之聯合戰力能否有效應對當前最為極致敵情威脅來判斷國軍歷年來為秉持計劃預算制度周延兵力整建計劃並以國家財力預渡逐年整建所需戰力為面對急劇變化之威脅形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3542.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3559.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
以及軍武科技日新月異趨勢供預算已還不及時國軍必須運用特別預算快速整建所需戰力與軍備自主量能建構成現代化近旅阻止中共任何可能犯來企圖報名好 謝謝接著請財政部委員次長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3567.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3580.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
主席 各位委員 先請大家早安經外交部 外交及國防財政委員會召開聯席會議審查行政院函請審議強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案與大院 臺灣民眾黨團 中國國民黨黨團分別領據防衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3595.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3621.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
採購特別條例草案強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案共三案檢究涉及本部業務部分檢要說明進行指教行政院草案第五條規定那麼本條例所需的經費上限是新台幣1兆1.25兆以特別條例以特別預算的方式來編列其預算編制不受預算法第23條不得充 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3623.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3642.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
經常支出規定制限制但經費額度因匯率變動影響超過上限部分得以總預算方式來編列前項所需要的經費來源得以一用以前年度的稅金剩餘或舉債的方式來辦理其以特別預算方式編列的每年度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3643.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3673.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
舉借債務的額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定的限制中央政府總預算及特別預算在本條例實行期間的舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額合計數的15%中央政府舉借的一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依照公共債務法第五條第一項的規定納入控管行政院的草案如經過大院審查通過本部將配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3674.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3683.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
國防部及行政總署辦理特別預算的籌編並以特別條例公共債務法及財政紀律法等規定來控管債務來維護財政紀律 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3686.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3714.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有關大院臺灣民眾黨團及中國國民黨黨團所提的特別條例草案部分那麼請就涉及本部部分的剪掉說明那麼經費上限民眾黨的草案為四千新台幣四千億元那國民黨團為三千八百億元並授權未來的再行提出第二階段的特別條例至於經費來源及債務控管的規定民眾黨團的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3715.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3718.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
草案跟行政院的草案大致相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3719.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3747.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那國民黨團的草案則未就經費來源及債務控管進行規範因此我們建議以行政院的草案來推動那第二個民眾黨的草案第五條第八項規定本條例施行期間各年度中央政府總預算案所編列的社會福利支出不得少於115年度中央政府總預算案所編列的社會福利支出佔比恐有 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3749.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3766.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
財政紀律法第七條有關立法機關制定或者是訂定或修正法律法規或自治法規時不得增訂固定經費額度或比例保障之一律因此我們建議以行政院的草案來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3767.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3781.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那第三個民眾黨的草案第六條規定籌編第一期預算的時候應考量我國的人口年齡結構變動因素的影響衡量我國稅入負擔能力以因應高齡化及少子化對編列預算財政衝擊等 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3787.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3809.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
近年中央及地方政府預算籌編原則都已經有規定政府在籌編預算的時候應考量人口年齡結構變動對教育、國防及社會福利政策的影響目前各相關的主管機關都依照該原則來辦理因此我們建議以行政院的草案來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3814.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3817.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天應邀列席第十一屆第五會期貴委員會第一次聯席會議對於病案審查行政院版本台灣民眾黨團以及中國國民黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3843.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3859.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
版本所提的有關對美軍購的特別條例草案提出報告以下僅就條文涉及本總處的部分簡要說明如下一行政院函請審議強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例草案第五條的規定經費上限為 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3867.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3891.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
1.25兆以特别预算方式编列其预算编制不受预算法第23条不得冲经常支出规定之限制但经费额度因汇率变动影响超过上限部分得以总预算方式编列经费来源可以以用以前年度税计剩余或举借债务方式办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3893.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3915.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
其中我們針對每年度舉債額度的部分排除公債法的限制但是對於條例施行期間的舉債額度仍然要求要符合這個稅出總額15%的規定那至於一年以上公共債務未償債務餘額的預算數則仍然應依照公債法第五條第一項的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3918.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3935.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們主要考量這個條例國防部所採購的強化防任性及任性及不對稱戰力的裝備及系統主要是經常支出所以為了因應與日俱增之敵情威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3937.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3956.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
以確保國家安全所以我們排除預算法第23條的規定另特別預算財源規劃的部分以目前預估115年度累計債務未償餘額佔前三年度GDP平均數的比例是26.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3959.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3963.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
距離舉債的上限還有14.2%的空間所以有3.7兆所以預計還可以因應本條例採購的預算需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3973.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3999.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
基于采购裁员已经按照财政纪律法第五条以及恪守国家财政健全的理念在本条例第五条明确规范经费来源及债务控管机制等原建议支持行政院版本所定的条文二有关台湾民众党党团拟据之保卫国家安全及强化不对称战力 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4000.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4012.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
計劃採購特別條例草案其中第五條第二項及第八項規定本條例採購財一年一期方式編列考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4014.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4042.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個國防部規劃軍事採購的目的是爭取一次性配付確保資源穩定集中加速籌貨所需戰力為了兼顧計畫實效性及經費完整性近年編列之新式戰機及海空戰力提升計畫採購特別預算均為一次性編列多年期的預算所以本條例編列之特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4043.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4068.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
建議循例採一致性編列多年期預算方式辦理令第五條有規範希望社福支出不得少於115年度中央政府總預算所編列之社福支出佔比基於我們財政紀律法第七條不得增訂固定經費額度或比例保障之規定所以建議刪除該項條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4071.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4094.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
另外第六條規定本條例籌編第一期預算時應考量本條例施行其間我國人口年齡結構變動因素之影響省省規劃收支額度及中長程財務計劃衡量國家稅務負擔能力以因應高齡化及少子女化對編列預算財政的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4097.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4114.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
考量預算法已經有相關的規範尤其我們在中央及地方政府預算籌編原則已經有類似的規範了所以我們建議不用在這個條例再行訂定三 中國國民黨團拟據強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4120.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4140.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
為救經費來源及債務管控進行規範為遵循財政紀律法第五條規定及加強管控財政收支建議以行政院版本推動以上報告敬請各位委員女士先生會議指教謝謝副主席長其他機關報告請參閱署名資料現在開始詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4145.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4163.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那本次聯席會議委員5加2分鐘非聯席會委員4分鐘那10點半截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出那11點左右視訊的情況進行處理現在我們請賴氏把委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4171.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4177.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長我們請顧部長是 賴委員不能找那個F16V是不是今年開始交捐預計我們今年可以交交多台 要多少台 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4200.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4215.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們現在還沒有辦法做一個精確的估算可是不是什麼案件都已經測試了啊剛剛就說可以交了大概什麼時候交第三劑是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4216.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4241.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
預估第三季第三季可以交運返台所以我們大概九月份可以看到第一架是不是這個意思現在預估預估可以所以這也沒有確定所以這個來講那MQ-9V什麼時候交第三季也是第三季所以這個就看到這兩天的新聞物件一直來就是為了今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4242.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4263.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
大家都知道某種程度這也是一個認知作戰我請教你這句話對不對說我們已經交了錢六千億的武器沒有交是不是對不對就對了不對怎麼講你講我想這個部分是不是請站規師這一題已經回答很多次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4264.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4284.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
包委員我們所有的案子不論是軍購或商購我們都是依據執行進度去付款也就是我們每年會編列預算很多個年度的預算一次一次付所以不是像媒體上面寫的那些案子的總額六千億我們就一次付了六千億所以從來沒有這種事 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4285.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4305.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
但是這是玩文字遊戲就是換一句話說我要強調的雖然你們在這裡講過我也問過你們講說事實上是三千億可是看帳怎麼算你們要等於把到貨期往後延所以那個就沒有交所以不是說我這樣講好了不是說我交錢交了六千億我交了三千億沒有交券對吧但是還有三千億你還沒給錢對吧 我這樣講對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4315.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4316.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我這樣講對不對嘛你又回答我嘛我這樣講對不對就是我已經交了錢有3000億沒有來但是我另外我要買的項目還有3000億我錢還沒有交他當然沒有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4330.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4353.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我想這個過去也講過很多次就是說我們現在買的二十幾項的武器裝備有提前交易有準時交易那還沒有的主要就是三個一個F-16那您剛質疑的第二個就是Mk-48的重巡儀類那第三個就是AGM-154這個大概三個部分有遲延那加起來多少錢F-16的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4355.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4383.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這三個加起來多少錢?M16的部分均購款是2400億元左右然後已經付了1490億元左右然後呢?然後AGM1547買56枚大概是60億左右的案款但是目前因為預約還沒有全部完成所以只付了1億多的先期準備款然後重型魚雷的部分兩個案子加起來是1.77億 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4385.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4390.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
美金左右你剛剛講都是美金嘛對不對一樣我們前面只有大概付了3億多台幣的初期準備款你沒有回答我的問題我剛剛講的就對不對你可以講我講錯沒關係嘛你就在這裡我剛剛講的是說我們現在說是錢已經交了沒有交券的3000億另外有3000億錢還沒有交 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4415.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4427.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
錢還沒有給 錢還沒有給嘛 對嗎 交易一樣的意思我沒有給 那是三千億嘛 對不對 我這樣講對不對 這一句話對不對 包圍員也不對好 那你跟我糾正一下 我們先回到那個卡關你跟我講 因為我時間有限 你就告訴我 好 已經交錢的有多少錢沒有來 還沒有交的有多少錢 就這樣子再把三個交起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4441.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4447.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
包委員為了數字精確的關係我們這邊建議我們匯整一份資料給您 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4449.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4470.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
因為剛剛他已經大致上講了就是說大概Mk48的魚雷然後加AGM154再加這個F16B那這個當然還是有美金計價的然後再折算成台幣這是一點那第二點大概相關三個組織他剛剛大概都已經說明了你剛才講美金計價一個六十億六十億台幣就是差不多兩千億啊對不對沒有沒有沒有六十億你剛講不是六十億嗎那你再重複一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4479.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4491.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
AGM1547是60億左右的台幣台幣喔 你剛剛講美金和台幣60億台幣 還有一點多億一點多億是美金 還有一點77億是魚壘是美金吧對 是美金 對嘛 還有另外一個一點多億是美金 對所以就有差不多3億美金左右嘛就差不多100億左右嘛100億加60億 160億嘛 你又這樣精準講就這個意思吧 巴偉我們還是建議給你一個統計資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4509.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4513.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
現在看到這個中東打仗了美國有沒有可能跟我們借愛國者飛彈我們目前沒有接過任何相關這樣的一個訊息所以他不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4527.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4534.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們沒有被揭霍有任何需要你難道不會擔心我們這邊的預算又有買愛國者飛彈愛國者飛彈美國在中東打得差不多了他還有愛國者飛彈賣我們嗎難道你不會擔心這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4543.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4564.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們現在也沒有接貨任何因為我們現在還有續購的那個愛國者的飛彈現有我們當時用捷運館買的一百零二枚的飛彈那這個部分他也沒有說要表示要遲延交付所以準時交卷我們現在只能說沒有接貨任何有關遲延交付的訊息好最後一點部長我在這裡很慎重提出來其實大家都了解這次其實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4572.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4598.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我覺得名稱應該用這個B黨的啦加強國防及對美採購全部都對美採購啊畢業正名夫就是對美採購我們的版本是3800億加N這個N現在出現什麼時候出現什麼時候加上去因為媒體報導啦不是嗎只不過美國政府還沒有最後確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4600.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4604.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
他要再賣140億美金有人講150億那就差不多4500億台幣加上去就8000多 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4608.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4614.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個加收區8000多啊那你的一點澳照其實加了很多都是國內採購這一部分我覺得應該要放在一般的預算裡面跟委員報告像強攻的這個反戰術彈道飛彈的這個系統就是我們委託中科院製作的我想這個部分也是我們整體防攻那個放在年度預算可以啊放在年度預算可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4636.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4650.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我想委員應該有知道我們之前就有強化這個海空戰力特別提升的一個特別計畫那個也是我們這個特別條例裡面我們希望能夠有一個穩定的預算來源來強化海空戰力那麼強攻這個戰術彈道飛彈這個也是重要的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4659.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4679.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那現在這個3800加NN已經出現差不多隱約出現所以就有8000多億了將近9000億了這個數字我個人支持另外就是無人載具的部分希望各位委員能夠支持因為我們希望能夠資源集中預算穩定的情況之下能夠建立我們的國防自主產能 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4682.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4689.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個放年度預算都可以我們今年度要省的預算是增加3000億的國防預算我們希望有一個規模性的需求來強化我們的國防資格這個東西啊能夠把它匡列啊你這個3800加NN已經出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4700.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4713.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
出現的時候就八千多億了這個我個人是支持的我先去講我是支持的你要珍惜我的支持喔這個東西否則就是只有三千八喔否則這個N出現了只要美國要賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4717.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4723.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
華家是不是來我們需要的這兩個條件都滿足我支持就這樣子部長你要珍惜喔珍惜這樣的講法其他的你要發展無人機沒有人反對那個都可以放在年度預算啦否則你就特別預算你要去給我們不是說不儲值國內的這個國防工業啦馬桶的裝修的都來沒有道理啦工程會要跟著去修法更沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4747.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4767.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好 謝謝賴世寶委員那我們請陳俊宇委員好 謝謝召委 我們有請顧部長請部長部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4775.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4789.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
部長我們今天所要審查的這個特別條例關乎到我們台灣未來多年的防衛韌性那尤其中共近來對台灣的這個威脅已經不僅僅是傳統的這個武力而是結合平時不斷升級的揮帶侵擾還有暫時的這種聯合火力打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4793.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4811.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
面對這個如此嚴峻的這個挑戰我們必須要快速建構足以嚇阻共軍的一個戰力那相關的議題我們在先前也都討論過現在總算是可以進一步聚焦在條例本身的這個內容尤其針對三個版本的差異我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4811.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4837.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
再將我們防衛作戰的需求軍購的流程以及無人機的運用還有國防自主能力等方面請部長進一步來詳細跟國人說明那為什麼行政院八年1.25兆才是最符合國軍的一個需求版本首先我們在這個防空計畫上所要打造的這個台灣之盾也參考到其他國家的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4838.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4857.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
建構高中低分層的攔截火網其中很重要的也是院版當中有納入人工智慧與這個C5ISR系統這個項目那從報告內容來看即便我們籌獲到性能良好的這個飛彈但是沒有一個大腦來連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4859.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4874.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
和指揮一旦面對中共利用廉價的這種遠程飛彈火箭飛彈或是低成本的無人機搭配彈道飛彈進行飽和攻擊我們的防空效率恐怕也是存在疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4876.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4895.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那我想先就這個部分跟請部長說明,院板所納入的AI輔助還有C5ISR系統有什麼樣的一個必要性?如果缺少這個系統,對於我們在這個防空以及反登陸的國土防衛上會有什麼樣的一個影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4897.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4916.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以我們今天的專案報告確實用了比較大的偏乎因為我們是要說明這個整個防衛作戰需要的一個整體效能特別您提到的CYSR跟AI輔助決策系統的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4917.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4940.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
不管是在這個整體防空飛彈防禦的部分或者是聯合反登陸以及這一個聯合國土防衛的部分他都要貫穿全場所以我們在希望就是說在這一個整個作為一個大腦的這種概念那如果要能夠導入這個AI輔助跟CVSR這個系統我們會獲得比這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4944.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4960.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
傳統的人工作業或者是這樣子的一個類比式的資訊的傳遞要能夠更能夠有可能來建立一個完整的共同作戰圖像來加速擊殺戀在進行防衛作戰這個我覺得是非常重要的一塊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4962.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4989.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
從先前這個俄烏戰爭到近期的這個美伊之間的衝突來看現在戰場對於這個無人載具的運用是重中之重那針對我們院版也編列了20多萬架的無人機以及1000多艘的這個無人艇的預算那有人認為說無人機的這個疊帶速度很快不應該一次買齊但是現在軍方精算出20萬架的這個數字我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4990.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5015.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
應當也有相當的一個依據那朝向建構這種地域景象所需的這個數量我想請教就是說這20萬架的無人機採購如何能夠落實所謂國防自主和非紅供應鏈的一個政策這是第一點第二點為什麼我們必須透過特別預算才能夠來帶動國內廠商投入產能研發而不是透過年度預算來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5016.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5031.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那第三如果這一筆這個項目最後沒有被納入對於我們戰力會不會有什麼影響會不會影響到各個這個作戰區預算在今年七月前所編程的這個無人機大隊我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5032.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5056.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
在俄烏戰爭甚至在這一次的美伊戰爭應該大家都看得很清楚就是說在新型態戰爭的情況之下呢快速建構這個無人載具的這樣的一個部隊戰力它的關鍵的重要性那之所以要編入特別預算裡面呢我們也有考慮到它的迭代創新 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5057.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5082.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
然後我們也要考慮到它科技的一個進展所以我們想的是說我們要透過推動無人採集的產業發展鏈來提升國防資本能力但同時我們也要考慮到這個無人機的快速發展所以我們一次不會說我們就去採購到20萬架我們一定是分批的然後我們每一次在分批的過程當中我們都會要求明年的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5084.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5101.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
的規格是如何後年的規格是如何但有一個最重要的一點是假如我們排入年度預算那我們只能夠在年度預算可能編列個多少價但是我們現有的這個整個的產業鏈我們要看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5103.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5127.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他們要看的是一個長單這個長單要考慮到快速的迭代創新但是要考慮到我們讓他們知道我們國進的這個需求我們國進的需求可能我說實在的可能不只20萬家我們編入特別預算有20萬家我們是分期來規劃我們不斷的考慮到迭代創新但是我們要讓他們知道無人載具的一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5127.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5152.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
在國內一個最健全的產業供應鏈對我們的國防能力國防的自主能力國防的韌性是如何等的重要我們不可能期待說我們就用這個20萬架甚至說5萬架我們就能夠打一場這一個保雨防災作戰但是重點是我們要在戰時就如同烏克蘭一樣我們可以在我們的國內就能夠自主生產是 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5153.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5178.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那我們要讓國內自主生產這個產業鏈要起來啊這個產業鏈如果他沒有辦法看到他一個長的一個單子他如何願意建立這樣子的一個產線進去投資還有現在這樣的迭代創新要跟世界各國甚至不是只有美國要跟世界的各國要來不斷的進行共同的研發共同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5179.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5200.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
技術合作轉移等等那他這些他也要看到未來他沒有看到未來他如何願意跑進來跟你做那這個就是無人機產業再來就是說打造一個飛鴻供應鏈降低這個整個資訊安全的威脅現在無人機的市場在商用市場上大家都可以看得出來最大的是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5202.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5212.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
就是中國啊那我們現在要民主國家打造一個飛鴻工藝鏈那我們沒有一定的產業規模我們如果說按照現在的只有三千架他一架要賣多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5213.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5242.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那他如何迭代創新他如何能夠引進技術我想這個都是我們編入特別預算的一個重要性那這個這樣子的我們如果能夠突破這樣子的一個預算額度的限制來快速增長戰力來快速增加我們的國防自主能力快速強化我們的防衛韌性快速的能夠不斷的進行迭代創新無人載具的關鍵性力量事實上在這兩次每一的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5244.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5259.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
烏鴉戰爭裡面都看得已經是非常非常清楚所以我們是很急切的期待朝野都能夠支持無人載具在我們的這個國軍災害部門的需求上面能夠重視然後用特別預算來編列好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5260.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5281.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
其實烏雲載具在未來的戰爭當中應該就是很重要的一個攻擊的武器所以確實是對於在台灣守護我們國家安全上是一個非常重要的一個項目那守護國家的相關安全我們確實也不能打折也不能再拖延請國防部持續跟各黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5283.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5307.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
做更好的一個溝通也讓我們全國的國人能夠了解到八年1.25兆的這個規劃是經過我們兩年以上的審慎研究也是與美方進行政府與政府之間的一個詳細的溝通符合敵情威脅的一個專業評估那也都是我們防衛作戰所需的一個核心裝備我們的目標當然就是要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5308.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5329.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
共軍對台作戰的時間表能夠一再的往後甚至也讓敵人不敢輕舉妄動那我希望我們各位同仁一起來支持這一項的預算讓我們國防部能夠儘早來做一個更詳實的一個規劃好 以上謝謝謝謝部長謝謝陳俊委員那我們接下來請林德福委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5344.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5351.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
主席還有議會各列席官員還有我們各位同仁是不是請那個顧部長請顧部長是林委員部長你好部長本席是支持國防備戰而不起戰用實力來確保和平那本席知道軍售啊是賣方的市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5373.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5377.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們溢價能力有限但民眾看不慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5378.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5404.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
合約簽了立法院也三讀通過的預算錢也付了那美方武器的這些裝備啊這個延遲交貨那請國防部簡要的說明以付款的軍購到貨時間延誤的情況哪一項武器或裝備延宕最久延宕時間多久國防部有沒有什麼解決因應的對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5406.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5428.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
跟委員報告,我想剛剛站規司長大致上已經說明了我們現在還持續案件大概應該有23案那很多部分都是按照節點來交運,或者甚至有提前交運那剛剛就講就有三個,一個當然就是大家都在講的F16V那F16V我們現在已經在產線看到已經有59架來進入產線那現在也都在進行試飛 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5435.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5449.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
當然因為手架機的試費他除了在場進行試費以外他還要整個進到我們美國相關的基地去進行整個系統的測試所以這些測試的這個部分呢應該會花比較久一點的時間但是我想只要這個手機的測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5454.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5470.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
進入的這個一定的這個順利之後呢我剛剛也已經回答了我們應該可以預計在第三季齁的時候我們看得到這一個飛機因為他飛機要先到美國再進行我們飛行員的訓練訓練完之後呢才會載運回來所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5472.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5491.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們預估第三季可以來那另外兩個部分一個就是MARK48的重型育壘一個是AGM154那這個部分相關的部分事實上我們現在付的款項並不是很多剛剛站位師大概已經說明了一下那個不必講了我剛剛有聽到那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5492.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5517.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
因為113年12月31日有一篇文章淺談軍購公補不符案件策略的分析基於政府內部的控制與賽局理論的改進建議撰文者是軍方的人員出自於國防部主計局發行的刊物的主計記刊 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5520.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5531.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
113年12月31號你們可以去換文章指出軍購花架書合約有利美方軍購禮約過程的花生爭議時必須依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5534.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5559.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
美國規定的程序來進行依照他們的程序我方現行的辦理索賠程序啊美方決定不以賠償時申請索賠單位缺乏有效第三方的申訴管道換句話說你怎麼講都沒有用啦他講怎麼樣就怎麼樣部長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5560.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5581.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
美國他就軍購的部分當然是他對全世界在賣武器他都有他的一個內部的一個集合的程序雙方在軍購案之後都會成立專案辦公室那他們內部也會有相關的集合這個集合的單位集合但是我們沒有來你也沒有辦法申訴也沒有辦法去要求任何啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5583.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5597.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們會透過這個,因為專案辦公室我們會有人派在那個地方那相關的這些進度也好,或者是相關的這些執行的這些期程暗箱的狀況如何,我們都會充分的予以掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5598.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5613.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
議長問沒有用啊他們說的算我們說的沒有用啊問題是卡在這裡啊我們不能說的是沒有用啦但是委員大概問的意思是說如果他交易期程是不是我們能夠跟他索賠那這個點我必須要坦誠講我們是沒有辦法跟他進行索賠如果委員問的是這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5615.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5631.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
但是他整個的整個的集合的流程是 我想是相當嚴密的這但是就是就美方而言跟我們也要進行有一個專案的辦公室來進行合作那所以現在委員所一再問的就是說軍購 交易執行他們講的算我們確實沒有辦法對軍購案來進行索賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5637.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5663.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那個軍購挖架書的合約為定型化的契約沒有辦法經過協商為單一國家的修訂作為適當改善合約不利我國的這個情形建議可採 漸進方式來強化整個軍購案源頭的管理針對這些老舊啦 效能不符合的現代這些作戰需求的武器裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5665.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5677.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
審慎評估其繼續來維護的必要性以降低軍購支出與國防預算之比重以上這些文章摘要內容為維護我國權益我國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5680.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5699.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
檢要說明美方軍購公補不符我方的索賠情況以及要如何來扭轉美國軍購發價輸合約不利我國的這個情況部長您有沒有什麼看法所以委員的意思是說我們軍購案都不要做不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5700.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5725.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我是說你這個合約只有當方向他們講的算我們去要求而且他就是跟你延宕你也沒有辦法做任何的要求我想如果說委員覺得說我們不能夠進行軍購案那要採商購的話那剛剛也有委員提到說商購的部分我們又按照國民黨的提案又不同意我們進行任何的商購 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5726.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5749.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你不要讓他扭轉,我意思就是說你們在訂合約的時候,你們本來就應該要跟人家談好啊。鮑偉我們要澄清一件事情,發架書它不是一個合約,發架書它是一個安全承諾文件,那個議約的合約的部分是每政府跟廠商,它才會訂合約,這是第一點。第二點,我們也不是什麼都不能做, |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5750.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5765.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們針對美方執行軍購案如果他在管理上面有瑕疵我們可以要求他換掉專案辦公室的全體成員是真非但就是這樣的例子那如果他是因為產線產量不足那 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5766.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5789.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
需要更多的人工那我們也會要求他們把人數增加目前F16V不要改動它可以加速的原因就是我們在從前年開始就要求落馬必須要增加產線的人力那它也增加了兩倍的人力同時採取兩班連續趕工我們才有現在的成果所以並不是什麼都不能做我是希望說你這些要 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5791.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5814.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個軍購的這些東西我們一定要站住立場不是他們講什麼我們就怎麼配合完全沒有自己的這個定見跟看法因為我們這些委員我們是代表人民來監督政府當然你付了那麼多的錢我們要是立場站不住又讓人家為所欲為你說我們這些委員算什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5815.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5834.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
對不對我們是代表人民來監督政府當然你所跟人家制定的不管合約啦不管任何啦一定要有立場嘛不然不能讓人家為所欲為嘛他講什麼我們都任何都不行去跟他做任何的爭辯哪有那回事全世界也沒有這樣的合約啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5835.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5860.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我想再次跟委員說明,我想軍購就是一個政府對政府的行為那你們該要求還是要要求啊對,我們當然,剛剛詹貴士已經說明了,像他舉了這個F16的例子像他舉了剛剛說的刺針飛彈的這些例子都說明我們這個在專案執行的這些期間我們都會互相綿密的溝通,並且提出要求我是希望你們還是要有立場啦,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5861.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5865.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好謝謝我們接下來是羅明財委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5873.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5901.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
主席客人、處列席官員大家好主席客人請顧部長請顧部長以及審計部的陳廷長陳政部的阮次長請財安部部長你好我想國防保護我們的安全沒有人反對截至目前為止有誰反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5902.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5914.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你說我們不要買軍購的有沒有哪一個委員說反對我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5916.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5936.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
希望委員能夠支持我們現在所提出的願板我們這個願板除了有軍購、商購跟委制項目這三個對我們整個建軍備戰的整體的規劃是非常重要是,部長我覺得這是很嚴肅的議題所以大家要很嚴肅的心情那希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5937.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5956.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
得到一個最好的答案這次一共是1.25兆我就想請教一下部長是不是1.25兆一毛都不可以少站在國安部的立場我們很希望委員能夠支持我們這個經過這麼久的時間所規劃的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5960.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5975.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
特別預算的一個來強化我們整體這個防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的一個暗項我們當然站在國防部立場還是希望我也能夠給充分的支持是,我們都支持啊可是部長你剛剛講說1.25兆那你敢說你講1.25兆一定都對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5983.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6010.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
1.25兆是一個上限上限的意思會再增加還是會減少不能夠超過上限那我們在條例通過以後我們還要提出預算書預算書的每一個案項還要經過這個委員會的審查還要經過這個大院的通過所以這個預算相關個別的預算還要等到條例通過以後每一項每一項大家再來逐步檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6011.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6036.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以你的意思是說1.25兆就夠了?如果您就問我,我不認為,我當然不認為1.25兆是夠我們剛剛在報告裡面也提到了我們持續的這個新增的案項還有很多包括了這個華社、天津公司等等的這些案我們並沒有把它全數擺出特別預算但是我們也不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6038.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6057.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
毫無限制的去全部把它擺到特別預算我想剛剛都有提到了我們要考慮到這個我們有考慮到這個總量的相關的財政紀律法以及公共財務法相關的規範所以我們提出的這個特別預算我們就是打算應該是說資源其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6059.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6083.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
規模穩定的情況之下來達到我們想要的一個這樣不對稱戰力跟防衛任性的提升當然建軍備戰是持續性的工作不會是所以你剛剛的說法是上限是1.25兆對不對對然後具體的項目還要再送到大院來委員會來申請我那一天跟卓院長講的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6084.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6107.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
他說委員那我們也可以1.25兆加N啊我的天啊聽到無所謂那我的意思是說民眾為了安全的問題大家都會支持啊我記得委員那天您跟左院長對話您是說1.25兆不夠那所以院長才會回說那你也可以再把1.25兆加N他是一個回應委員您的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6112.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6121.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那我們這邊提出來當然是1.25兆因為在顧及一定的我們的整個財政紀律法跟公共債務法相關的規範所以你看看那麼嚴肅的議題結果我講1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6128.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6154.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
左院長說你也可以提1.25兆加N像問題不是我提啊而是我們信賴你們的專業相信你們能提出一些可以有效來至少保護台灣安全的一個方法就你說你可以再提那我提的意思就是說那1.25兆可以不可以買到台灣的安全或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6155.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6171.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
乾脆一句話,你問美國,究竟要多少兆?那我們會覺得啊,你跟我講多少兆,我們也要回復美國啊,好大力賣兆啊台灣有困難的時候,你就停到底啊,這樣也可以來談啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6172.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6192.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
可是到底有沒有這樣做我們通通不知道我們不斷的強化累積性的強化我們的可視戰力使共軍不敢犯台這個的目標那我們的手段不會只限於我們的特別預算也要包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6192.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6211.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們的公務預算那這兩個是會有相乘的一個效果我們希望委員能夠支持好 謝謝我們一直都是支持的態度但是嚴格的審查因為台灣的財庫不是無底洞我等一下要問一下次長次長我們現在委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6216.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6242.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們的負債的餘額是多少我們現在的負債餘額如果是用預算數來算的話是6.8兆這個再加上去又是1兆多實際上的餘額是5.8兆那到底這個事情是怎麼樣來的為什麼5年前不需要10年前也沒有說台灣馬上要戰爭啊為什麼搞得好像好像馬上就戰爭了可是真的會戰爭嗎來我們請一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6245.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6264.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
軍事情報局的李執行長我們之前感到很惶恐啊是說聽說要打仗啦共軍要犯台請問共軍最新的情報會不會犯台委員報告我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6271.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6291.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
一定要料敵從寬我們不會去說他一定會犯台或不會犯台我們的國軍的目標就是不斷的累積我們的戰力來達到一個嚇阻的效果那事實上這樣子的一個嚇阻或者拒止的這個戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6292.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6319.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
美國也是放在他的這個NAS國家安全戰略裡面那我們整個第一島鏈的國家也都在增加國防預算目標也就是在建立這樣一個集體嚇阻的能量讓共軍不會覺得哪一天是適合的日子來進行犯台加強我們自己本身的戰力加強我們自己的實力部長我要請你要小心一點我最後請審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6323.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6332.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
陳廳長委員好陳廳長過去三五十年以來軍購的部分有沒有出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6334.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6336.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們這個一兆多最後會不會流到美國的國庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6356.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6380.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
還是留到別的口袋裡面按照現在我們的錢會先匯到他的FRB裡面然後如果要提領給廠商到Trust Fund我想這個基本上是不會過去拉法院案錢流到哪邊去拉法院案是商購啊 他不是軍售商購 這次有商購啊目前商購的話是國內或是偽裝就可能要錢目前我還沒有看到所以部長你能不能保證說這些錢不會出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6383.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6400.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們官部會秉持最嚴謹的立場將一分英豪都花在一個我們的刀口上為什麼以前有中跑失黨的事情出現我想跟委員報告軍購案的這個部分剛剛有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6401.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6413.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個政府對政府那FRB是我們在美國聯邦準備銀行設的戶頭那個錢還是屬於我們的那美國會按照他的進度的要求會再放到一個Trust Fund裡面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6414.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6436.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那這個程序可能大家不是很理解這個細部流程那商客的部分我想我們透過相關的這些集合的這個程序不管是採購法不管是相關的這些審計制度都會進行嚴格的一個把關那請問趙雅萍中將你認不認識他就在這裡那你相不相信他 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6443.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6466.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我想趙中將是一個非常嚴謹的一個將領我想他會就他的採購室的職責做好他應盡的工作那你們所有相關人也要把事情做好啊沒有出問題啊我們當然會努力好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請李昆城委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6479.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6483.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
謝謝主席我們請顧部長請顧部長是 李維來 部長好 辛苦了齁這個我聽到很多在野黨的委員也說支持國防 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6495.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6520.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
支持這個國防的預算沒有要擋但是要嚴審那我也希望說這個軍工特別條例好不容易在程序委員會被擋了十多次之後終於有機會來到我們這個國防財政聯席委員會來做審查那如果真的支持國防我也希望說1.25兆的預算能夠順利讓它通過啦我們今年的國防預算是9495億嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6524.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6552.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
2025年的國防預算這個事其實是預估我們現在的一個特別預算可能在我們年度國防預算有關9495億的部分是我們用NATO的算法包含了國防部編列跟海巡組跟輔導會也包含了年度公務預算跟基金預算以及特別預算的總和好那你知道說中國在2026年的國防預算有多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6553.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6576.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們的了解是應該折合台幣應該是8.88.8兆左右8.8兆左右這個差距非常大但是我們不是要跟他比這個國防預算誰比較多因為我們今天要討論就是一個不對稱作戰的一個特別軍購的一個計畫對不對那我看到這個在野黨不論是民眾黨或是國民黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6577.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6595.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
綁手綁腳的其實如果通過了這個在野黨的這個條例的話最高興的是老共最高興的是老共你看嘛我們台灣支隊沒有了飛鴻供應鏈沒有了我們的AI的這個指管系統沒有了我們的保訓培訓我們的這一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6600.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6620.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個配備的系統也沒有了 還有呢 未來的這些情況呢 這會受到影響那我先從兩個點來講吼 無人機的部分這無人機的部分的話 看報告吼 這個打算要籌購20萬餘價的這個各類型的無人機那這大概是 也是分8年嗎 還是分幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6621.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6647.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們現在預計應該是分八包委員我們那個項目不是只有小型無人機所以它的執行年度各有不同原則上無人機的部分我們是希望在前六年的時候無人艇的部分也是一樣能夠在前六年的時候執行這二十萬架的分批招標跟分批製作六年的話這個時間拉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6649.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6673.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
因為你們有跟美方去談了,但是時間會不會拉得太長了?跟委員報告,現在就是我們執行年度,我們現在是八年的一個預算嘛,那看哪一年開始執行那重點是這樣子,就是說無人機的部分呢,我們基本上是採國內公開就是說它有不同的,包括這個我們現在已經有五型的無人機的這個部分,那這個是會開 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6675.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6693.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
公開招標的方式那我們也會考慮到迭代創新所以我們不會一次購足20萬架我們是分批來進行的那執行的年度我們再看看那無人機的預算在體育條例大概是多少無人機您說全部的預算對 就是無人機艇的這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6694.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6718.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為無人機的部分就是我們未來這部分是採用這一個我們有軍購部分也有商購部分也有偽製部分嗎無人機的部分基本上除了那個攻擊型的那個仿專甲的無人機是有軍售的以外其他的部分的現在的五款是商購公開招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6719.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6745.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
以國內的由國內來產製那另外我們還有一些像瑞英二型的這種健身型的無人機是偽製請中科院來製所以中科院的預算也含在這一筆特別預算裡面瑞英二型有百如我們的特別預算還有攻擊的無人艇都是中科院的沒有無人艇的部分我們會公開招標國內產製的方式所以中科院就是有瑞英二型的無人機就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6746.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6763.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
還有強攻的那個飛彈好 那就是我們這筆預算有含中科院的預算那含未來就是這個因為我們要這個有這個飛鴻供應鏈所以有這個國內的廠商來做就對了對 我們在那有含這個美國的這個跟美國的這個技術的合作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6763.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6786.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對 我們那個個型的這樣的一個無人機最重要就是要排紅所以要排除這個紅色供應鏈那另外我們主要是要讓國內的這個產線能夠增加然後來強化我們的國防制度的能力那另外當然我們會跟這個我們的有盟國家來進行相關的技術合作跟技術轉移 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6787.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6804.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
都還在這裡面就對了我們在分批籌購的這個相關的無人機的採購計畫裡面不管是哪一種的無人機都會有考慮到國際上無人機發展的一個趨勢來進行必要的合作研發所以在政協黨的條例裡面都沒有了這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6805.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6832.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們現在看到的大概民眾黨團應該是就已經公布就是說已經知會國會的那幾個案項然後國民黨團的部分應該也是指就知會國會的那個部分那我想還有其他很多的部分呢我們事實上在上一次的機密專報裡面有做過充分的說明所以就是在建立飛鴻公園那個部分我看起來是沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6835.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6860.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
因為無燃機的部分沒有的話那配用供應鏈這個觀念就沒有了好 那我再請教一下我們的這個C5ISR還有AIR這個輔助決策還有這個指管的系統那我看在在野黨的條例裡面也沒有了對 他們現在應該沒有考量到C5ISR的指管系統的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6861.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6864.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
都沒有那這個的重要性在於哪裡勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6865.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6891.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我想就如同現在螢幕上當然提出來當然是我們整個的一個大腦的一個建構我想CISR我們在我們的專案報告裡面已經有充分的說明不管是從我們的整體防攻跟黑暗防禦還有我們的聯合反登陸跟聯合國土防衛我們都需要CISR跟這個相關的AI輔助決策系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6896.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6923.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那請問一下如果有這套系統的話我們的這個急殺鏈的時間可以縮短多久呢應該是說我們現行的這樣子的一個急殺鏈的一個建構透過這樣子的決策系統這個引進在那個當下的那個決策的時間會縮小所以我們在報告裡面也提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6925.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6946.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
在這個為了因應新型態的話能夠有一個AI的運用的話再結合無人機的話我想我們可以擊殺鏈從數個小時縮短到數分鐘這樣子戰場上一分鐘都非常的重要更何況是說可以從這一個數小時縮短到數分鐘那所以這套系統大概要多久的時間來建立起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6953.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6983.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
包委員這個因為連進入預約的程序都沒有那這個時間要多長當然是在進入預約之後我們才有辦法跟相關城市的廠商來做確認那但是原則上我們希望能夠配合我們各式戰力形成的時間來完成這套系統因為我們買了這麼多武器那我們希望說有這套系統才不會這個各自為政有一個整體的一個圖像嘛應該是這樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6984.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7005.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那我們看在野黨的這個條例裡面也沒有這個東西所以我就說綁手綁腳啊對 那因為這個問題我想有一些我們可能還需要私下再跟委員做一個充分的說明 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝李委員接下來我們請顏寬恒委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7014.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7016.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長我們請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7029.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7050.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
今天各黨團討論的重點多多在這個總金額的高低我認為真正被低估的風險是匯率在重大對美採購案當中新台幣兌美元的匯率只要變動一塊錢實際上影響都數百億台幣都數百億所以這是直接衝擊到國防預算穩定性的一個結構性風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7052.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7077.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那面對美國還有國際情勢的造成的一個匯率不確定性那國防部目前是否已經跟中央銀行還是財政部建立一套制度化且主動的匯率避險機制例如索匯或者是其他的金融工具還是說持續的採取事後補差的一個被動的做法請部長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7081.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7107.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員好我是主席局局長有關我們對美軍購有關匯率的部分目前國防部是按照發價書以及65表相關付款期程時間到我們再去辦理相關的結匯目前我們是沒有辦法去做所謂的避險的一個作為所以還是依照過往一樣就是事後由預算來做一個補償的部分如果有匯出的話我們必須用預算來補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7109.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7136.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
沒有辦法更積極或者是一個做出一個主動性的一個避嫌措施沒辦法做目前我們官方部的部分沒辦法做這個那另外齁這個結餘款結餘款滯留在美國齁這個均售的FRB帳戶已經是多年來都這樣子啦那根據審計部過往的一個報告說這些躺在美國的錢高達數百億台幣甚至於有些專案他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7138.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7158.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
裝備都已經退役了那帳還沒有結清要避免這一次採購案重蹈覆轍那是不是避免說變成美方的一個無息提款機當我們數百億的資金在FRB帳戶的時候這些錢剛剛部長也說了這些錢實際上是台灣掌管的是台灣擁有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7160.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7175.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
在FRB的帳戶裡面所產生的支息也歸我們喔是沒有錯但是我要提出的就是如果美方提出一項不在原規劃內不在原規劃內甚至不符合我方現階段需要採購的這樣子的一個採購案那 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7180.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7200.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這樣對我國的一個國防自主權跟財政紀律是造成一個極大的挑戰我們原本計劃是不是說原本計劃要將捷運款繳回國庫那繳回國庫或者是投入其他急需的一個其他的項目那如果說被導向美方現在要清他們的庫存 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7201.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7217.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
指定或者是要求我們採購的不是在我們原規劃內的我們的軍購的一個武器部分那這樣子的話部長你是否會堅持說先繳回國庫再重新送立法審議的一個法制程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7219.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7238.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我們結匯到美方的外匯會回來的兩種時機第一個就是所謂的他案子已經結束了他整個清算之後還有餘款我們叫做外匯的退匯餘款那第二個部分就剛剛布朗有提到的我們不管是在美國FRB銀行的支息我們也是全數都會結繳國庫這兩個款項全數結繳國庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7241.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7266.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
至於剛剛委員提到的是不是美方有另外額外需要我們再去買的那我們會按照我們的建案程序回來做個評估如果有需要我們會循建案程序完成計畫之後編列預算另外再去做所謂的結會不會從這些餘款裡面做一個所謂的流用 以上報告相關的這些預算都還是要經過大院的同意才有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7267.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7276.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對 所以我說我們當然支持就是說要強化我們的國防那支持必要的一個對外的採購對美的採購但是不要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7279.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7304.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
動不動就對監督者來戴帽子來扣上說一個不支持國防預算就是不支持國防但我們現在的問題不是說要不要買而是怎麼買買的有沒有制度有沒有底線如果匯率風險如果匯率風險沒有控管然後結一款都滯留在美國那交貨又一延再延 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7305.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7315.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
整套這樣的機制就是把所有的風險都留在台灣所以我們支持要強化台灣的國防但是主導權一定要在台灣這合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7317.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7335.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這合理吧?我想剛剛已經說過了,軍購的相關程序已經是行之有年那我們放在FRB的帳戶的款項都還是我們的,算真的支息也是屬於我們的所以在FRB的帳戶嚴格來講不算是我們已經支付的款項 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7336.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7356.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我們會先都依照審計的單位的要求我們都會來匯到FRB的帳戶都會受到監管所以我想整個我們這邊的整個集合的程序也都相當嚴謹那美方他是因為政府對政府所以美方跟他的合約商也要有一個相關嚴謹的集合的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7358.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7385.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
如果說像賴政府上台這一年多那兩岸高度緊張嘛台海局勢很危急美國政府理當就是要協防台海的安全那應該要依照跟軍方合約如期供應台灣防衛性武器才是保護台灣正確的具體做法但是我們實際上美國卻多次違反了我們的軍購合約延遲當初承諾台灣的武器交貨時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7387.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7400.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那這種情況面對現在的高度緊張部長除了密切協調這四個字我們還有什麼更強硬的能夠確保這一次軍購案美國未來能夠如期的旅行合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7401.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7417.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
每個軍購案成立之後我們都會成立專案辦公室那專案辦公室會有美方跟我們的人員一起我們也會派聯絡人過去那我們會掌握相關的進度那有任何的這個問題我們透過專案辦公室會跟美方反映那我們這邊國防部本身也會向美方反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7418.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7443.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
然後雙方來透過來努力來解決那所以剛剛詹貴士事實上也提到像F6V就因為這樣子我們現在兩班制他們不斷的一個進行加速生產所以現在在產線的部分已經有50連同在市費的部分已經有59家所以這個都是說我們透過跟美方的政府這些政府之間的一個協調都能夠獲取一定的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7445.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7471.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
獲得到一定的 獲知一定的這個改善那這一次的我們的特別預算的軍購是不是也有可能會像F16V這樣的情況發生我們會 當然就是希望就是說像我們之前希望能夠發家族授權我們在預算還沒通過之前先行簽署就是希望不要產生延檔那之後又成立資產公司那我們會透過跟他們密切協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7473.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7478.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
如果假設又跟F16V一樣的情況發生我們國防部有什麼因應的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7479.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7507.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
剛剛也已經講了,因為有這些專案的辦公室所以我們會還是對政府催促,不斷的開會催促沒有,他們一定會提出一個相對應的解放我想美方都不願意看到對我們的交易的其成有所延宕因為美方最大的核心利益還是要強化我們台灣自我還原的能力我想這個是台灣關係法以及六項保證裡面都有提到的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7509.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7537.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好的好謝謝謝謝謝謝營委員接下來我們請林楚英委員謝謝主席主席有請顧部長那麼其他如果遇到題目有相關需要協助詢問的這些官員再請你們自己上台來謝謝請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7541.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7565.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
是 林委好 部長早安我想其實今天不論如何我們可以進入到國防特別預算的條例的審查也算是往前邁進了一步那麼既然是有關於特別條例的審查我們就知道從剛剛報告的時候就可以知道有包括顧部長行政院所提出來的版本還有國民黨跟民眾黨都有版本那麼很開心至少我們聽到的是在野黨也都認為他們不擋軍購 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7567.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7583.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
只是希望能夠進行嚴格的審查作為立法委員我們同樣的也認為錢要花在刀口上只是啊很怕他們所提出來的所謂軍購特別條例的這樣的一個案子只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7583.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7607.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
明為支持國防預算實為設下陷阱讓我們的軍購被綁死甚至於呢看得到吃不到為什麼我這樣講我仔細的看了政院版本也就是國防部提出的跟國民黨跟民眾黨的版本我簡單的就來提出這三個我認為的妙物我也請部長來為我們來解析一下首先第一個當然就是剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7610.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7613.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
現任的財政委員就是國民黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7615.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7642.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個顏匡衡委員有特別提到了有關於就是我們對美元的部分沒錯過去本席也在國防外交委員會之前也是在財政委員像這樣的軍購版本民眾黨把型號數量都寫死如果是這樣的情況底下一旦出現了匯率的變動又一旦出現了價格上面的波動我們也知道如果上個會期有在國防外交委員會就會知道我們有一個列銷專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7644.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7654.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
當時我們所購的編列的預算的價格跟後來美國他有做一些調整很多人都不知道所謂的發價書不是報價單他比較像是一個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7659.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7674.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
軍購上面有意願的國家喊加一我把它解釋為團購單啦就是說跟著一起買確定了數量金額跟參與的國家之後美國才會跟廠商來進行所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7676.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7702.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
了解價格跟需求所以像這種把型號價格寫預算都寫死的狀況之下真的有辦法執行嗎如果沒有辦法執行的時候他就就是一個價錢框在那裡便宜了不能買所以我們要貴一點嗎預算就框在那裡數量我們後來決定買不到或者是想要多買也不行所以我要提出來的是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7703.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7728.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
現在按照民眾黨的版本把這樣的內容都寫死了會造成什麼樣的狀況?報言我們還是建議那個我們不論是什麼樣的版本能夠按照我們的計劃預算制度跟我們的軍購流程那軍購的部分事實上那涉及到的是一定會進入到議約程序之後才能夠去確認說那個項鍊是什麼那當然這個的衝擊就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7731.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7747.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
比如說像我們過去陸軍買Apache H64D Block 2然後當它進入預約的時候變成Block 3然後等到實際原因是什麼是因為有一定的時間新的機型出來了對不對對你就得重修所有的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7748.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7769.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
沒錯 那言下之意就是如果現在就講定了未來進入議約程序有新的機種出來我們買還是不買我們要買舊的嗎到時候在野黨又講說有新的不買你們為什麼不買好 第二個因為時間有限把整個授權的時間一年一千而且甚至於改成還需要修法我想在野黨的版本甚至於國民黨都說2028年就要執行完畢喔那麼說實話 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7775.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7788.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我們是所謂賣方市場在整個軍購的過程當中包括連現在我們都還沒有進入所謂的預約期的狀況底下如果這樣切碎又會造成什麼樣的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7789.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7813.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
是不是到時候買不到我們所有的軍售案跟美方簽署發價書的時候一定是期程就已經確定了好我就問發價書等不等於估價單等不等於銷售單那它的意義上又是什麼因為我相信在場很多委員可能都還搞不清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7815.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7832.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
發價書實際上真正的作用它是一個書面的美國對我們的安全承諾也是透過這個安全承諾表達它可以供授給我們的項量跟概括金額那這個部分在後續都必須要經過預約才能夠確定所有的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7834.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7854.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
所以很清楚嘛如果這種一年一千或者甚至於把年限就放在現在已經是2026年的三月中了已經三月底了如果這樣的期程依照國民黨的版本的話2028年來得及完成嗎那如果來不及美方不會同意這種做法為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7856.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7873.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
因為他一個發價書簽署之後他就是齊成跟蓋孤金額還有項量在我們雙方議談完之後做一個確認他不會讓你一份發價書去做好幾次的這個談判好我們現場副主記長是不是在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7878.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7897.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好 副主委長有請因為這個除了國防部之外因為跟預算執行有關國民黨的第七條特別提到了那就是如果執行這個所謂的特別條例沒有完成如果有不法的話要送監察院但是我想請問的是我剛剛一直強調這是賣方市場包括美國它有它一定的產製的時間跟期程跟廠商的問題如果像這樣要來究責的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7907.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7926.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那這個到底責任是在我們國防部的官員執行的官員還是在美方我們是要把美國美方的軍人抓來這裡審判嗎還是把美國的廠商抓來這裡來來來來罰則你有看到第七條嗎國民黨第七條對所以基本上我們認為那個未來會是有自然難行之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7927.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7955.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那如果是這樣的話你有沒有什麼建議應該要怎麼樣來處理基本上我想我們在預算執行的時候本來就有各種規範那所有的我們的這個行政院的這些公務員或者是軍人他都依照相關的規範在執行所以基本上不用特別在訂這樣的一個條文大家都會依照相關的規範去 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7956.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7977.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
做執行好 但是本席擔憂的就是部長如果真是如此的話依照我們當然為什麼我們全力支持行政院的版本那是一個在為台灣設立所謂台灣之盾的情況底下的完全的整備所以包括年限 包括金額 包括方向特別條例基本上它不是一個特別預算有特別條例才會變特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7980.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8001.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
但是如果說如同現在第七條所規定的甚至於是讓這些負責採購的公務員都擔憂自己要送監察院要考核這個還沒有做事就要先安上一個罪名我想就像我說的為什麼我舉出三大荒謬之處是看得到吃不到可能也做不到我想如果要講這個逐年審查如果沒有辦法能夠如期審訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8011.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8024.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
履約或者預算有可能在審查的過程遭刪減凍結那麼在付款的這個高度不確定的風險下我們就會衍生我們的違約跟廠商不願意如期交裝的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8025.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8047.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
然後也可能需要支付額外的軍購裝備延遲的起運存款的一些費用等等所以逐年進入交裝跟付款的高峰期的階段,這種情況會更為嚴峻那會無法依照計畫來形成戰力,那對整個建築備戰的工作當然就產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8049.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8064.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
非常嚴重不利的影響好 本席是特別研讀了三個版本所以T1針對這些部分我相信後面還有一些其他在野黨的委員會諮詢他可能也會來回應或回覆但是這是本席看到的我認為既然可以進入討論那就是一個好的開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8065.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8083.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
只是我還是要再次強調特別條例不是編預算書我幫這個國軍人才招募中心打個廣告如果這麼想編預算歡迎加入國軍的行列你們就可以一起來協助編國防預算但我還是強調立法院不是編預算立法院在這裡是預算審查跟條例的審查謝謝謝謝林委員接下來我們請陳永康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8100.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8122.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那部長您先喝口水休息一下好主席有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8137.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8162.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
今天的國防部的這份報告資料一共14頁內容確實非常多但是是文字敘述沒有圖沒有表可能就國防部的專業人士來看他腦筋的邏輯是非常清晰的但是在在場不同領域的問政的立法委員背景不同他的解讀可能會有一些落差所以我用很簡短的時間把今天這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8164.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8192.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
整個的狀況啊先把它國防部編列特別預算本質現況目標方法限制因素手段預期把它排列出來那有待釐清的東西像辦案的內容第九頁第十一頁第十二頁這些東西我不足條列這個希望會後啊各部會的負責的這個司長次長啊我們再做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8194.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8215.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那么过去啊徐司检副部长也讲过了说都没有来赴委没有机会前面有很多时间可以沟通啊不能到二月过完年以后才来所以这些东西我们都在做沟通无人机的东西啊我们是绝对支持但是有一个很严肃的问题大家都没有去touch乌克兰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8216.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8240.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
俄乌跟这个美国跟伊朗完全状况不能套到台湾乌克兰的面积是台湾的16.7倍全部是地面作战如果没有starlink美方不提供新链的话乌克兰的无人机一架都不能用那以色列跟伊朗的状况伊朗的面积是台湾的45倍因为中共提供北斗 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8240.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8261.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我们这两个都没有也就是说我们无人机里面的除了军售大无人机以及中科院自制的无人机外其他属于消耗型的小型无人机到暂时没有指挥频道这个希望我们国防部的同仁跟厂商要加强把这个叙述清楚消耗型没有关系自毁也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8262.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8278.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
但是ROE操作手什么等级是什么样的通讯传回来的画面都没有提我们都是谈载台非红供应链里面有好几项是中科院现在在聚焦努力在做的但是现在还并不能够完成支持你的通讯频道 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8283.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8298.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那另外就是不斷電了這是還有一個很重要的我們是希望在國軍的指揮中心下面的緊急發電機能夠雖然都是根據我們政府的消防安全法規但是你地下室的儲油槽是可以修改的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8299.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8314.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你的發電機要冷卻的所以我們未來也甚至建議這個內政部的消防安全允許在重要的超高大樓醫院下面增加它的儲油儲水量以應暫時的需要因為斷電以後不只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8315.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8340.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
政府的機構它的供電能力失電沒有了24小時以後它就停電了那不是沒有油是因為限制因素那也可以儲水去冷卻發電機這些都可以努力的這都可以精進的那根據在今天條例裡面寫出一些問題我把它列出藍色的做回應這個會後大家我們可以進一步討論都是有溝通的餘地 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8341.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8370.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
绝对是支持国防但是绝对不是一个包括式的支持或不支持本席过去在国军服务啊也到立法院来回答绝对不是像我们有的委员讲yes or no不是是跟不是的这张图啊我希望我们战规师了解这是美军过去做的整个的军售作业流程全部在这里面你用文字叙述哪一个不是在政府官员服务的人能够了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8371.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8398.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以你的整个的尤其是右下角这个图哪个地方要多少时间如果重新回来流露要多少全在这里面用图像的解释远比用文字叙述要容易因为这个是专业你们清楚可是听的人不见得了解这个提供参考这个就是去年的所有41个国家所有的军售全部列出来了 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8400.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8412.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那这里面你就可以去比较啊有没有相同重复的会不会影响到我们以后的这个是2月26号美国国务院公布的啊所有的我们的项目全在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8415.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8441.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
这个是2026目前已经军售跟美国签了发价书的我们还没签但是可以但并不表示我们就摆不进去了有什么冲击2025年的军售有41个国家那现在这里面列了14项所以我们需要的东西跟其他国家会不会有时效的冲击或者是排序的问题那个后面可以再谈 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8444.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8470.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這個是我們整個軍售作業作業流程我希望大家在這個上面去做檢討精進可能這個圖還不夠理想沒有大家講得清楚但是看了你會知道我哪一段誤解了所以之前我們都是講看發價書其實我們有一個一個詢價的LOR for P&A或者是這個怎麼講呢這是發價書的要求LOR for LOA對這個上面有寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8471.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8498.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那这个是一个流路我提供这张图给部里参考你觉得哪里不理想不对你更正但是有个framework有个框架这样子对民间的老百姓对在立法院的同仁有了解军购是一个集合名词就美方的立场来讲包括军售商售军售融资以及总统特别法案那再加上我们国内的合作谈到未来的挑战我特别要提提供建议 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8500.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8521.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
韌性不止於消耗的彈藥這是消耗不起的所以遠程打擊目標精準C5ISR要加T要加targeting要趕快精進我們現在就已經C4ISR那個5是cyber |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8522.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8535.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那不要被干擾能够掌握对面的情势所以并不是谁去挡台湾之盾台湾之盾是一个很好的崇高理想但是这次铁穹也破了因为消耗不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8536.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8553.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以把对面模拟这个东西我想每年的汉光我们都在做但是实际上现在AI导入以后你做交换正反向模拟你可以拦截多少还要承受多少另外一个就是向大家说明如果台海冲突是全世界最大的灾难 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8554.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8573.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以川普講任內不會習大大說我有這個想法但是沒有agenda所以我們的想定裡面尤其是兩溪的灘頭絕對不是現在想像中的灘頭紅色海灘只剩下銀籍的這種機率是不大的你真正的要是保持著電網不斷外面的人員來進來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8576.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8588.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
整個對這個頻道啊通訊啊這個是最重要的我只講到這邊做這做一個給各位做一個參考部長您指教我是不是請鐘哥先簡單回應一下就 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8590.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8610.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
委員我以中科院的身份跟您報告一下就委員剛剛有講到無人載具發展的問題其實無人載具它真正重要的是軟體去定義硬體也只有用軟體定義硬體我們才能夠做到快速的迭代更新我們才能夠在GPS在電子干擾的狀況下能夠靠著自主化的軟體持續去執行任務為什麼我們需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8611.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8639.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
編列特別預算就是當我們在跟國外的廠家去談軟體授權或者是共同發展的時候一次性編組一筆預算我才能夠在這個軟體的裡面智慧財產佔比佔最高也就智慧財產能夠百分之百屬於我們的我們才能夠透過軟體定義去持續讓我的無人載具去迭代更新這個就是中科院要完全擔任主合約商 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8640.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8662.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
如果是國內的合約商跟你是平起平坐的對談第一個要跟美國的廠商談美國廠商要先通過ITAT審查所以有些技術東西不見得能轉移第二個我們國內的廠商要接受美國的叫做什麼核實調查DD我們國內廠商都沒有所以要中科院代表出面以上提出建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8663.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8672.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好 謝謝委員謝謝陳永康委員那接下來我們有請羅美玲委員那待會王玉川委員咨詢完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8689.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8707.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
部長 早安 辛苦了真的很不容易 我們國防特別條例在程序委員會被攬擺前前後後擋了九次今天終於在陳冠廷召委的這個安排之下在我們國防外交委員會來進行這個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8709.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8733.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那除了這個院版國中兩黨其實也提出了自己的版本可是我們單單從他們的這個條例的這個名稱來看其實呢跟這個行政院的國防特別條例呢其實有很嚴重的這個認知的落差那院版的這個法案名稱是強化防衛任性及不對稱戰略計畫採購特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8736.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8763.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
草案最主要的內容是要建構多重的這個防衛系統那國防部呢今天的這個報告呢其實講得非常的清楚那絕對不是只有對美軍購可是我們看看國民黨的版本他的這個法案的名稱是強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案很明顯的他這個呢他的條例呢只有對美軍購 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8766.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8787.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
美方智慧國會的這個項目那剛剛呢林楚英委員剛剛也講得很清楚不單單民眾黨把這個我們想要購買的這個項目啦或者是數目啦或者是金額把它這個放到這個法律條文裡面其實國民黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8789.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8812.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
版本也是一樣他把這個項目金額是列在立法說明那我想跟國眾兩黨特別要強調的是國防特別條例它是法律案不是預算案它是法律案不是預算案所以我們現在這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8815.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8832.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
國眾兩黨的荒腔走板的這個版本說實在的我想真的是讓大家是非常的這個搖頭那剛剛林楚映委員也提到了把這個項目這個寫死了把金額寫死了會造成怎麼樣的一個結果國防部剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8834.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8859.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
已經有說明清楚了也許我們會遇到匯率變動的問題也許我們所買的這武器有升級的這個問題可能會跟裡面的內容跟原來的內容會不相符合所以我是覺得啦國中兩黨雖然說有提出自己的版本可是我們再怎麼看也就是用變相的這個方式來卡這個特別條例因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8860.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8875.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們部長剛剛也提了我們國防部也提了如果按照國中兩種的這種方式來通過的話真的是很難執行我在想這個部分真的是很需要做功課 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8876.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8891.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那剛剛呢 我們陳永康委員他有特別提到就是說哎呀 你們不能全部都是按照發價輸來呀還有應該怎麼樣怎麼樣可是我們聽完之後在底下就覺得很好笑了國民黨的版本第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8893.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8906.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
第一項然後一到八款全部都是按照這個發價書來嘛民眾黨的第四條第一項一到六款全部都是按照發價書來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8908.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8935.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以居然國民黨本身就已經有一個這方面的專業可是看起來這個版本是不專業的人士所建造所建設的所以這個部分呢我是真的覺得非常的遺憾因為禮拜三禮拜四我們就要進入逐條選查像這樣子的版本我們只要不曉得要怎麼來做因為我們一定要有國防特別條例先要有法律案後面才會有國防特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8937.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8951.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
預算的這個條例出來後面才是要選這個預算所以我們在想他們這種這種方式到底要怎麼來怎麼來進行那再來因為前面這部分呢前面委員都已經有提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8951.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8966.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
國防部也提出了一些至愛難行的這個看法可是再來我還是要提到這個整個結構的這個條例到底有沒有違憲因為部長您是法律人根據大法官曾經在釋字第391號解釋中指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8969.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8987.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
法律案無論關係院或立法委員皆有提案權可是預算案呢只許行政院提出那例外憲法第70條規定立法院對行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議所以我想請問我想請問像這種版本到底有沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8988.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9009.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這次國中兩黨各自都提出民生不同內容跟政院版本差異很大的這個特別所謂的特別條例還是特別預算都已經在混淆當中了他們有點耍耍搞不清楚法律案跟預算案的不同那像這個的話就是由立法部門主導支出是不是有違反憲法請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9011.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9021.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我想來五分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是剛剛其實陳永康委員在秀出那個整個作業的程序事實上已經提出來就是說我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9022.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9044.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
不是會等到發價書來了以後才有可能去進行所謂的特別條例的通過然後再進行預算的審查我想這一個第一個要先澄清就是說陳永康委員市長已經整個指出整個軍購的一個程序的部分等到發價書草案過來才要進行特別條例我想這個這個是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9044.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9072.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這個是沒有辦法讓整個建案程序能夠來做這是第一點第二點就是說有關這個一照2500億因為有一直在提到所謂的空白授權的問題那事實上剛剛委員也提出來就是說條例通過之後條例通過之後我們還要在預算案要提出來那預算案每一個預算案大會審這個大院就是委員會審查大院審查以後如果不同意這一個預算案的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9073.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9100.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個預算就會被拿掉所以他是要等到條例通過以後才會有預算案的問題那第三個就是說按照預算法的83條的規定行政院是可以在年度總預算外提出特別預算所以事實上在這個預算法的83條已經有相關的規定是行政院可以提出特別預算案立法院不行嘛對不對他在預算法的83條明確的表明是行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9101.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9119.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
只有行政院可以提出對所以整個這個結構明天禮拜三禮拜四我們要審的部分你看他這個尤其是民眾黨的版本更是把這個法律案呢把它預算案化像這種版本其實本來就是違憲的嘛我們如何審呢我們當然並不希望說有所謂因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9127.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9148.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
特別預算的部分因為這個條例本身就是要為了要特別預算所以當然會有涉及到說法律案本身是就為了要提出特別預算那這樣的話我剛剛已經提出來了就預算法的83條是行政院可以提出特別預算OK好時間的關係部長各位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9149.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9149.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
郭文貴議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9179.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9204.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
三檢都沒有問題可是呢自己提出的版本卻是讓大家覺得荒腔走板然後我是覺得我們身為立法委員對於如何立法應該要非常的清楚在此呢再次的請求我們在野黨禮拜三禮拜四我們以專業的態度來審查國防特別預算好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9205.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9222.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
好 謝偉謝謝羅委員 接下來我們請王安祥委員謝謝主席 有請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9234.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9257.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
部長辛苦了我們今天站在這邊是為了審條例不是審預算所以現在我們要審的是法律案而不是預算案其實前面剛剛很多委員都提出很多對美軍購的程序所以我們這邊也針對軍購的程序我們特別讓大家能夠了解我們來跟大家做說明一下其實我們現在看到LOA常常都說這個發出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9259.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9283.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
可是前面其實很多程序 剛剛其實很多委員都講了包括這個LR 還有兩個程序大家現在很多對那個Price P&A跟那個是不是Available其實很有意見其實在這個大家可以看到那個前面的程序裡面其實都有相關的一個程序也就是說國防部如果在完成那個P&A大概Price跟Available能夠確定之後就會有一個規劃書了 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9285.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9300.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那我21號來了以後其實我非常重視這種所謂的溝通很多的部會來我說溝通那我覺得是不是應該從規劃書那個地方也許就可以來跟我們立法院立法委員來做一些溝通部長您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9303.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9327.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
LOA for PMA就是我們的一個確立要跟美方進行初步溝通的一個需求性所以就告訴他們我們的request嘛跟他說我們的需求是什麼之後我們獲得初步的一個有關交易期程報價的同意以後我們會進入一個最後的一個建案程序這個建案程序完了之後我們還要報行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9328.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9348.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
對 不是說看到 我們每次看到都是LOA本黨也是提出了很多預先授權的部分可是我來了以後 發現一直看到都是LOA都已經看到發架書了要架書都沒有 幾乎我們很多事情都不知道所以基本上我希望好的溝通我們今天因為是一個特別條例的審查我希望能夠強化一些溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9349.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9366.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那所以我對這個委員報告因為不管是LOR或PNA或者是LOR或這個LOA是他在還沒有知會國會之前是是是都是屬於機密的部分是即使我們編列了相關的預算送到大院審查對 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9368.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9390.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我的意思是說至少有一些初步的一些結論可以做一些初步的一些溝通而不要等到最後都看到LOA的時候所以上次我們還沒有互委之前事實上還沒有在委員會的時候就是說條例還沒有送委員會我們已經有做過一個完整的專報我們等一下來看一下日期但是有相當部分要採機密專報的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9392.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9415.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以基本上其實我剛才講溝通這個事情所以我們的程序應該是做這個剛剛我這個下面部分要有作戰需求然後做先有分析然後再獲得規劃書這個大概就是我們的一個期程基本上這個應該是這是我們跟國防部拿到的一個狀況所以其實很多時間大家可以看到這個螢幕上其實時間都大概八月十月九月其實就非常確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9416.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9423.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
應該是吧 這是國安部的資料就已經確定了就可以過來跟我們大概講一下說我們的對借金的需求大概是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9426.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9448.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
剛剛已經跟委員報告了就是說就我們相關的這些部分呢要在能夠公開的這個情況之下這個要請委員能夠體諒那如果相關有必要要排機密專報的話我們當然也很樂意隨時來再進行機密專報我一直強調 郭董你說那事實上我們在之前也都跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9450.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9467.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
委員來之前我們都跟每個委員特別是外交官委員都進行過好 感謝部長那這個裡面有很多這種所謂的這個作為費那裡面甚至還有那個18項可以看到這個就是我們今天還有一個新聞就通融單要的部分這個是不是可以說明一下為什麼這個會編在特別預算裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9469.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9480.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
幫委員 我們那個年度的作為費目前幾乎處於一個滿檔的狀況是那您看到那個無人艇跟後面的急缺彈藥那個額度是非常非常高的對 那個18項那個是不強用的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9484.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9510.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不只 通用的嘛 通用彈藥的部分它包含了我們國內沒有產製 還有我們國內不足的也就是包含腰兩棟公尼戰車砲彈 拐六公尼砲彈全部都在裡面嘛 所以這個也適合編在特別預算嗎還是應該在我們這個常態的預算裡面 最後的預算裡面來編我們常態的預算裡面 我們估算過我們沒有辦法去滿足 我們要超過120天戰備存量的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9510.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9525.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 了解那 基於這個你再看一下16 17 呃 16 18啦齁這個 你們的這個最後的這個規劃書啊其實是完成在114年12月跟115年啦我想這個期程是怎麼回事為什麼會這麼後面才完成呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9527.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9551.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
包委員,我們您看到的那個整規書它完成的時間跟前面我們作虛、細分、施工完成的時間它每一個案子都會有所不同那當然我們這一次特別預算裡面原本是配合去年年底的整個規劃可是我們看起來應該是規劃完才會有後面的動作嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9552.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9578.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
包委員您這個上面沒有看到的是我們跟美方的協商過程我知道我知道可是這個就很奇怪嘛慈善是不是可以給我們我們再來溝通一下再給我們大家詳細的知道一下有哪些細部的部分好不好就剛剛這個市長說的那這個有一些甚至在那個系統分析跟那個作業需求有一些那個好像順序不一致的部分就好像作業分析系統分析反正在前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9579.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9607.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個是怎麼回事包委員 我們那個系統分析它核定文號的時間跟它實際的作業的時間並不全然是一致的好 OK那是不是可以再跟我做一些解釋對 我們可以再跟你做解釋好 OK 沒有問題好 那這幾項其實核定的速度都非常非常快幾乎都是一週6月18 6月25跟6月30這個是不是也可以跟我說一下它那個期程上怎麼會七天內就可以全部完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9608.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9620.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
最近廣播很辛苦還要上節目因為你們上節目我也必須要盯著電視來看看看你們說什麼有一些金額我想最近都一直在講94、95億一直在講這個金額說我們已經超過3%可是那天在節目上說明的時候好像有特別講到說什麼1000多億是退府費的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9630.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9647.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那好像又有什麼295億採尋的那基本上是不是可以就是說我們現在編制就是剛剛有委員提到一年一編什麼那大概基礎上我們現在有一個1176嘛對不對那基本上是不是可以跟我們說明一下最下面那個1176 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9649.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9676.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
委員報告是這樣子就是說原來過去的那個我們國安部講的國安部預算是指國安部本身的預算那後來因為這個NATO它的這個核心的安全預算的時候它會有包含這個以後會納入專案序列的海巡還有這個退伍費的相關的預算那我們是參照這個北約的標準來做那這樣子的話這個所謂的北約標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9677.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9692.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
就會比我們原來國防部本身編的這個預算還有相關的基金預算要來得高所以基本上剛剛有委員提到那個就是會多年期所以也是你們大概想法上今年就是用1100億左右這樣的概念來編這個計算這個基礎對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9700.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9722.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個1176裡面是基本上有三個項目的預算當時在編這個預算的時候因為包含這次的這個不對稱戰力這個特別預算都把這個額度先框進去的所以這1176包含了這次的不對稱戰力第一年就是115年的預算另外還有兩個就是去年通過了經濟部的那個防衛那個韌性的那個預算海巡署編了76億 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9724.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9749.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
還有我們國防部的部分所以這裡面是有三個特別預算的額度在這裡對 所以我想其實目前為止從剛剛很多委員發言其實對這個條例還有很多的疑慮那我想剛剛也做了一些溝通我們取得了一些資料那是不是我們可以再進一步的做一些溝通好不好我想好的溝通是大家那個條例能夠順利通過的一個很重要的基礎好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9750.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9777.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
謝謝王恩祥委員 接下來我們請黃仁委員尤其部長 謝謝主席是 請顧部長部長我們針對這一次的這個採購的特別條例的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9779.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9789.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那以立法院委員監督的角度來看最擔心的還是驗版的第四條空白的授權的一個問題那我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9790.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9818.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們在條例的第四條只寫能力列別但沒有把武器名稱寫出來那本席想藉今天的巡打的機會一一的來做一個釐清至少讓立院和國人知道有哪些武器第一項是金屬火炮對應的裝備是什麼有哪一些有哪一些比如說海馬斯海馬斯多管火箭系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9820.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9840.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
M109A7的自走炮第二項遠程精切打擊飛彈應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些待會你們來回答第三項無人載機及其反制系統應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些第四項防空防盜彈彈道 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9842.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9871.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
反彈道及反裝甲飛彈應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些第五項AI加C41SR系統對應的戰場管理系統的是什麼第六項強化作戰磁性量能裝備應對的裝備是什麼有哪一些請回答我想首先還是要跟委員以及這個大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9872.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9899.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
有在看的這個我想這樣的一個傳播的國人能夠了解條例跟預算就是不一樣條例就是在規範這一個我們要後續提出的這個預算我們所要做的一個能力建構所以條例本身它就是一個大象然後我們接下來不可能我們國防部自己去編這個預算然後我們就去執行我們這個所有的預算案還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9900.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9924.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
送到大院來委員會然後進行審議然後再到大院通過所以這是第一點所以是不可能說條例通過以後好像有一個空白授權這個是跟這個整個我們走條例跟預算這兩個是程序是完全不同的那剛剛委員有問到的這個我就能夠公開的部分能夠跟委員做個報告大概就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9925.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9938.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
精準火砲的部分剛剛我也有提到應該是M109A7的精準火砲遠程精準打擊的飛彈大概應該就是指海馬式的多管火箭的飛彈系統無人載具的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9939.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9968.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
有包括到這個環甲型的無人機的飛彈系統,包括Artis 700跟這個Artis 600 RSR然後另外呢我們會有第二代的海獸的戰術型的無人機,這個其實講的就是瑞淵二型然後我們有好多款的這個冰海攻擊型跟尖針型的無人機那我們還有無人艇還有無人艇然後我們會有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9971.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9997.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
智慧型的無人機部長因為時間因素你就把這些明細的部分給我一份好不好我們可以就這個可公開的這個項目的部分你就給我明細因為既然這個就是針對條例的第四條我們把這些問題一一的點出來所以希望你能夠把明細給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9998.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10024.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那另外就是台媒共同研發採購應對的裝備那這個有哪一些尤其是在一項一項的提問的時候就是要點出問題的核心第四條的一到六至少能夠擠列出具體的一些東西但也模糊那比較明確但問題不大但第七項我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10025.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10040.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
第七項根本沒有具體的東西存在本息甚至認為國防部在擬定條例草案的時候可能還沒有具體的想法和規劃第七項委員講的是台美共同研發及採購合約之裝備系統嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10043.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10066.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
跟委員報告 其實我們在機密專報已經做了非常完整的說明所有參與過機密專報的人都知道把這一個報告給我一份好不好報告委員 這個屬於機密那你說機密報告 那你能不能簡單的簡單的幾項 讓我知道 好不好呃 它是一個委員簡單的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10069.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10083.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
美方他們在NDA2026年的時候已經編了10億美元的錢要來協助我們獲得各項重要的武器裝備那這個部分美方也希望我們能夠共同投資去採購那因為採購的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10086.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10108.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
必須在美方確定之後會來大院進行專報所以這個部分他是暗暗去報他會比我們前面的那個報的頻率會更高所以我看不到你們裡面所以我才請教你們嘛好不好內容那是機密好那你這個是待會就簡單的跟我們在做研究後續的那另外就是我請中科院根據媒體的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10114.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10142.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
根據媒體的報導國內自殺無人船在於中科院的快起的專案無人攻擊載機是不對稱作戰最好的手段那本席非常的支持那期望中科院能夠依照期程完成準時交貨那你能不能回答到底是八年還是五年還是六年你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10143.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10162.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
無人艇的這個部分的我想我們是採公開招標的部分是我現在啟程我想請鍾柯燕你來回答這個啟程因為這個是屬於我們海軍艦隊的這媒體都有報導快期專案嘛快期專案那 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10162.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10182.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
既然有這樣的困境,那剛剛我也講了本席非常支持嘛本席非常支持那另外就是他的期審到底是8年還是6年還是5年你來回答就好了,好不好跟委員好,海軍參謀長報告那整個這個案子從116到122 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10187.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10191.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
116年到122年那我們會分大概16到17然後18到19跟120到121我們會做三個階段來做那122年結案122年結案是的 是因為我們要考慮到整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10207.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10234.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
科技的一個發展然後我們要進行一個迭代的創新所以就無人艇的這個部分我們也會採國內公開招標的方式來進行那相關海軍事實上已經做過一次這個公開商情的一個說明但詳細的這些期程跟預算還是要等大院條例通過以後我們再送預算案進來才可以做到最後的確定媒體有報導這個專案就是這個快寫的專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10236.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10266.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那為什麼一定要到8年才完成中科院的這個快起裝案是中科院現在的一個科研案並不是跟我們特別預算的這一個無人艇的沒有這個已經是在公務預算裡面都有編了嘛公務預算都有編不是現在在這個草案裡面我現在問的是快起裝案快起裝案現在還沒有納入我們的特別預算或者是這一個公務預算裡面它現在還是一個科研案 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10268.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10284.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
現在是科研案?是對 好 那幾年完成?去年已經完成了OK 好 以上好 謝謝黃仁委員那接下來我們請王逸川委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10295.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10322.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 謝謝召委 我們請顧部長請顧部長市委官委部長請問一下我們這次三個案子的條例名稱部長有什麼想法三個提案您說那個條例的名稱對第一條條例的名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10325.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10329.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
您說三個版本的第一條還是整個條例的名稱?整個條例的名稱因為有一個版本直接是對美軍事採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10340.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10357.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
對,那這一點的話我們國防部是不只限於軍購的部分我們考量到整個我們國防自主防衛任性我們認為還要包括偽製案還有我們急需獲得的戰利的商購案那對任性這兩個是堅持嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10362.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10388.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們強調韌性就是因為強調國防自主國防產業的自主強調我們這個韌性的重要性所以我們在這個名稱上面會強化防衛韌性那所以剛剛也提到包括我們要強化我們的這個軍備的生產線等等第二個這一次的三個版本裡頭啊有一個3800億的這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10391.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10413.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那這個案子可不可以請部長跟大家說明一下如果最後通過是3800億的版本美方會有什麼反應這個3800億就我看到的這個國民黨提出來的應該是指這個已經對美 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10417.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10442.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
已經美方有智慧國會的案項,那我想這個並不足以涵蓋所有的我們現在所想要提出來的預算的內容部長覺得預判一下,1.25兆的案子最後變成3800億,不管美方的誰,美方大概會有什麼反應? |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10443.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10469.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我想這個我們跟美方經過這個長時間的一個溝通美方應該不會接受這個3800億他不會接受他們會錯什麼反應會使得美方會質疑我們的這個防衛決心跟我們的這個防衛能力的強化所形成的一個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10470.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10497.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
也就是接下來我們國防部繼續跟美國談後面的事情的時候美方會有點質疑你們是來談真的還談假的我可以跟委員報告就是說美方高度高度的重視我們這個依照2500億的預算的審查一通過那麼他認為就是集體嚇阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10499.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10524.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
防衛要承擔我們最大最大的問題會面對的就是我們不願意承擔這個防衛的那在對他的來講他的印太的整個戰略會受到嚴重的一個打擊那我想這個是美方所沒辦法接受好那在這個條例的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10526.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10552.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
行政院版的第四條國民黨的第五條 民眾黨的第四條都在講這七大項 幾大項那這些內容行政院版本就寫的是一個比較系統性的名稱國民黨版就部分它寫的是比較項目的名稱就出現了民眾黨版把裡面的金額都具體換算成台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10554.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10577.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
部長在立法上這三種寫法,國防部的寫法到底這樣寫對你們來說有什麼好處或者是彈性,能不能跟國人說明一下我想先說明兩點,第一點是國民黨在第五條裡面所列的這個項目我之前已經講過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10578.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10589.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
有一些我們他雖然智慧國會可是並不是擺在我們的特別預算裡面沒錯 跟你們原來的第四條的部分是有些不一樣的嘛對對對 那麼他現在主要是講說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10591.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10618.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
將智慧國會的項目列進去但是還沒有智慧國會的部分就沒有列了解那我想這個部分會剛剛已經講了美方應該是沒辦法接受了解這是第一個第二個民眾黨團提的他將所有的那些這個項目跟那個金額都寫上去這個是跟條例還有將預算整個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10619.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10640.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是混在一起了條例應該是能立預算案的部分呢我們還要等到後續我們預算案提出來那預算案還有可能跟美方在預約的過程當中最後會產生變動那麼變動的話我們就要修這個預算相關的這些書表如果把它列到條例裡面的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10643.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10669.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
隨便一個字一個項目一個金額的變動那我們要送到送到大院來再來審議然後再來修改然後才能夠去變更這個預算書表我想這個是沒辦法執行的啦最後一個請教一下這個執行的這個條例的期限期間行政院版現在訂的是八年那 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10671.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10691.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
拉到8年對這個案子來說部長可不可以再跟大家講一下為什麼要拉這樣的一個時間我們相關的這樣子的一個能力的建構不管是軍購案商購案或者是委制案我們都會有一定的一個期程那這些期程呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10693.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10718.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們也要考慮到這一個相關的財政紀律跟相關的公共債務法相關的給我們的一些限制那當然我們會跳脫說有關這個年度預算給我們的一些束縛但是我們還是會遵照財政紀律法跟這一個公共債務法有一些總量的一個管制那最重要就是說不管是軍購案、商購案或者是這個委之案它都有交易的趨勢所以軍購案會有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10719.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10728.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
交運的期程那如果沒辦法在這個期間內完成這個交運將這個條例限縮在很短的時間內那幾乎這個預算這個案項就沒有辦法來執行交運這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10735.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10761.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
譬如說海馬仕的82套那同樣無人機的部分我們也希望能夠符合迭代創新所以我們會有一個迭代創新的一個長年期的規劃然後來達到一個預算規模然後來增加國內的產線的能量讓這個整個國防制度能夠提升那這個都是有一個完整的一個配套所以這個8年這個數字也是跟美方討論過的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10763.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10785.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我們就美方討論的部分是軍購案的這個部分那麼其他的部分我們當然也會隨時跟美方保持溝通你總是要問他多久做得出來嘛多久怎麼當時做得出來你們去顧了這一個八年交易的期程都有從剛剛講的開始LR和平衡跟LR這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10787.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10796.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
LOA等等這個相關的這個階段就推估出來了我們都有跟他們做綿密的溝通OK 好 謝謝謝謝委員 接下來我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10832.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10832.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10897.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10897.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
嗯? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10897.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10907.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
咖啡喝了?喝了喝了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10925.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10925.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
學寶可可 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10972.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10983.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10989.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10990.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
黃昏島的頭巾在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11041.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11059.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11063.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11066.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
謝謝觀賞,下次見! |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11078.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11085.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11105.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11107.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11153.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11157.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那我們繼續開會那接下來我們請王定宇委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11168.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11169.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩部長請鼓掌 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11179.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11201.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
副長長在進到特別條例之前我有兩個比較小的問題先就教於您第一個是我們八軍團的夭夭拐女說掉了將近八千發的空彈殼那這個事情新聞有報了我看到也是八軍團跟陸軍直接喊請移請高雄地檢署偵辦所以我是肯定不要有錯誤不要隱瞞 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11203.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11208.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
面對錯誤才能糾正錯誤我今天要問的題目不在於這個短掃7900發的空彈殼我是要請教一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11213.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11219.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
2024年的1月9號當時訓次是劉聖母開了一個記者會說我們現在為了強化訓練實彈射擊量變大所以實地實務實作以及實戰化訓練來做考量有關射擊訓練各部隊轉換動作移動如果彈殼散滿地 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11238.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11259.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
找不到的話就別找了就填個表單把它除帳就好當時有開一個記者會就不用再滿地找地當然還是要收回來但找不到我就填個表單把它除帳免除了當時大家認為這是一個減輕國軍負擔的一個德政我現在把這兩件事情都在一起問 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11260.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11274.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
既然有除障制度那跟八軍團夭夭拐驢這一次掉了快八箱的打完的空彈殼這兩個事件的本質上的差別在哪裡怎麼還會既然可以除障了怎麼還會有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11276.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11303.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
包委員 簡單的說這個事情陸軍事件部在調查的時候也有去做一個了解也就是說實戰化的要求目前我們仍然是按照這樣做那但是它也有一個合理的長數跟比例那目前我們跟這個短掃的空彈殼的數量來看它兩者之間沒有決然的關聯性所以這個事件的本質在於我如果這一場這個部隊我拉出一打法 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11304.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11327.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那打了一千發結果掉了兩百發或一百多發的空彈殼啦以前的話都要找到現在是找不到填表單儲帳是而這一次11拐鋁的事件是短時間內大量整批的不見目前掌握是這樣那如果快七八千發的空彈殼是蠻重的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11328.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11337.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
他現在主要是跟藏籍的資料不符我們要再去檢視一下空彈殼的數量何以會跟藏籍的登載不符但是我們還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11354.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11371.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
如果原來是查帳籍那是行政調查我看到你們的動作是直接丟給高雄地檢署我們自己也要做調查提醒國防部一件事情就是說既然在2024年的1月份我們有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11371.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11388.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
新的街市就是對於這空蛋殼因為以前我們自己打法知道你要通通找回來要花很多時間我們有個儲帳制度這到底是一個帳的累積到一個量他只是沒有去登記表單儲帳累積到這麼大的量還是像剛才參謀長所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11389.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11418.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這不一樣這個違反了這個常識跟比例原則太大量的突然間不見這個本質上是有差異的我是希望不要因為這樣子原來你們當時這個申報除障免除去撿找到百分之百空彈殼這個東西不要再走回頭路了其實美軍是沒有在撿彈殼的是 我想我知道委員的關切所以在這一個事情發生的時候我也是了解那我們想我們這一個有關那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11419.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11420.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11421.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11449.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
原來的那個機制我們想我們還是會存續的我們軍方的習慣是除了一個問題就多一個新規定要減輕一個東西就多了一張表單就越填越多減量啦第二個我要請教我們昨天看到在美西時間17號接裝了兩架MQ-9B高空的無人機那我這問題也很簡單高空無人機的飛行員他還是叫pilot或者操作員 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11450.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11468.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
跟一般無人機的飛手一般無人機可能是小型的可能是巡飛彈的或者自殺無人機的我們在現在目前國防部對這兩種操作人員的定義是否一樣因為定義衍生出來的專業家級是不是雷同 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11470.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11485.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
先跟委員報告我們現在編成的無人機大隊也因為這個編裝的調整我們跟人事總署已經爭取了所以我們現在無人機大隊也列入戰鬥部隊的一個佳績但是它有沒有飛行佳績 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11487.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11514.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
無人機的部分嘛小型的中小型的無人機高空的無人機的部分沒有有沒有飛行加急因為這也是我們國軍第一次接收到這樣的一個裝備所以說我們有把它初期納到跟其他的戰鬥勤務加急是一樣的這個戰鬥勤務加急這一題我們將來還有專報的時候可以來討論我給部長跟我們各軍總參考一下第一個先把定義弄清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11515.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11517.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
FPV啊彈簧刀啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11518.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11542.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這個Jump 20啦這種一般的無人機的飛手你們現在設定的是領無人機的戰鬥家體領戰鬥部隊的戰鬥部隊家體但是去開MQ-9B這種高空無人機在美方是認定他是一個飛行員而我們現在不管是陸航的直升機的飛行員因為我們現在有一些要淘汰人又會釋放出來他還是飛行員 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11545.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11574.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以高空無人機 軍規的高空無人機應該還是要有飛行員的加級你可以增加一個類 我們現在兩類嘛你可以增加第三類別這是尊嚴 這也是知己就我本來是開飛機的 我現在去操作無人機我變成領戰鬥加級 而不是飛行加級我相信參謀長應該理解這個對一個飛行員的尊嚴也好對他實質的所得也好對鼓勵流用來講 都會有影響甚至於連服裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11575.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11599.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
美軍在開在駕駛這些高空無人機的是穿飛行服我們現在要他穿的是野戰的作戰的作業服這些都要納入考量我提供建議就是說對於無人機類別要區分開來高空作業的無人機他是不是定義為飛行員著飛行裝加擠未必要像有人飛機的加擠這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11601.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11619.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
但是我們可以增加第三類別因為這是未來其實它是現在式現在這種無人機的操作員各國都在增加所以我們如果一視同仁從海軍陸戰隊的飛手陸軍的飛手到高空無人機的飛行員都視為同一個類別的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11620.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11631.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
留不住人才我坦白講我就到民間去開直升機就好我幹嘛留在這邊變成領這個佳績我相信部長跟董事長聽得懂我意思啦這個給部裡面建議那我現在請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11633.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11652.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們一般在所謂的預算的特別條例其實他就是最重要的條例就三個條文第一個條文叫做屋頂我給你多少上限不管是治水的特別條例基礎建設的特別條例或我們以前的F16V的特別條例上限多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11652.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11669.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
第二個條例的在這條文裡面的第二個重點是用途適用什麼範圍像我們的前瞻基礎建設裡面叫做綠素水稻香綠能啊數位差距啦那個水的改善跟治水啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11670.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11698.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
道路、鐵道建設、城鄉差距它會界定一個範圍因為條例本身不會去處理預算的細項是根據條例通過之後才來編列預算在這個範圍裡面框住而特別條例的第三個重點叫做年限為什麼特別條例要有年限否則就放在年度預算就好了我是三年期像我們的公路這個叫做都市生活圈道路是四年五年一期 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11699.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11708.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
因為他要跨年度去規劃他要累積的所以我們這個是八年所以我第一個要請教這一個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11709.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11736.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我們的預算1.25兆是怎麼計算出來的怎麼得到這個數據的1.25兆我們因為我們在專案報告裡面已經有提出我們的整體的規劃那細部的這個要籌購的這個些項目那麼有一些是還機密有一些是可以公開的所以我們上次也在這個委員會做過全面的一個機密專報 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11737.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11740.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以那個就有比較充分我們能夠有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11741.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11770.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
比較充分的一個機會所以我這樣講對不對這1.25兆其實是經過不管是賓診或者跟台美之間的磋商溝通它是有具體的項目需求加起來才有這1.25兆的數字而不是框個數字在那邊以後慢慢花對然後就跟委員講了我們已經有一個規劃那這規劃也做過精密專報有一個完整的規劃那現在這是一個上限嘛那我們接下來就如同委員剛剛講的我們還要把每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11771.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11776.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為很多人把這個上限當作預算了其實特別條例通過之後還要編列預算進來審查嘛那具體預算的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11781.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11809.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
不能夠超過這個上限但事實上每個預算那你用途的範圍可不可以大方向講因為我相信就算在野黨我們可以其實就本著需求來好好溝通如果這些預算的上限是經過計算出來的項目確實是我們國家安全所需要的我覺得在我們國防委員會這個東西沒有黨派吃分的啦那第二個就是說用在哪些方向對美採購是其中一項而已你們主要的用途有哪幾大類 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11810.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11831.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
跟委員報告一個,我剛剛在黃仁委員在講的時候,我大概有提出金融五號,我可以公開的部分我現在先講,M109A7,遠程金融打擊,非常就是海馬式多管火箭無人載具跟它的反制系統,這個可以公開現在部分,當然還有包括國內的商購跟委制部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11832.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11858.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
一個就是反甲型的無人機的廢彈型這個Artic 700然後還有這個Artic 600 ISR你現在講的是項目啦我講的用途範圍大概就是精準火藥跟它的載台還有我們的不對稱戰力的建構還有我們的台灣盾就是防空能力的整合提升然後另外因為這些彈藥什麼很多需要在台灣產製所以有台灣的產線台灣無人機的製造你大概有幾個大的範圍就是我們特別條例裡面列的這幾個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11862.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11883.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
所以我真的因為時間的關係我們未來這三天會好好來討論這個條例其實特別條例只處理預算上限年限跟用途範圍這裡面不會去處理說你要買哪個細項不是寫在條例裡面的因為項目在預算編列還會出來而條例通過之後編列的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11884.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11900.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
不管是細項說明審查甚至於未來的決算其實跟年度預算是相同的方式還要再送大院審查對 還是要送大院審查啦就預算是預算條例是條例條例是授予編列預算的法源那我們希望這一次的聯席審查因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11901.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11917.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
八年有他的急迫性有他的需要性如果變成年年來審查變成年度預算就好了所以在國防預算聯審財政委員會我覺得我們希望我們不管是什麼政黨其實我們照顧的人民是同一群人 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11918.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11943.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
就是中華民國這個範圍內每個人的安全這沒有黨派的分別我們希望1.25兆基於不管是兵診計畫、細分會議或者台美的對談如果是確切需求的我們能夠在黨派之外尋求最大的共識讓1.25兆能夠全數通過好 謝謝我想這說明就條例通過1.25兆不代表空白授權1.25兆還是要細項還是要預算審查還是要大量通過所以絕對沒有空白授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11948.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11964.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
謝謝王定宇委員 接下來我們請林思明委員謝謝召委 我們請部長 請郭部長請郭部長部長好 部長好 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11973.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11991.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
知道上週美國對我國所有的軍售案,還有多少軍售金額尚未交貨?我們剛剛在回答幾位委員的時候,大概這張說明就是說F-16V然後Mk-48重型魚雷還有AGM-154C |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11996.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12012.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這三項那麼相關的金額剛剛都有做過說明是不是如美國的那個聯邦眾議員巴爾他在上個禮拜3月17號他指出共高達210億美元其中包括80億美元的F-16V的戰機20億美元的愛布蘭主力戰車、榴彈炮、標槍飛彈和飛彈精準打擊系統等 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12021.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12045.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
跟委員報告那個艾布蘭主力戰爭你講的是M1A2T那現在這個都準時交運而且今年會交運完畢所以這個這個標槍跟這個托斯2B也都是這個交完了那麼如果還有海馬式的第一階段的部分我們也都如期的在進行交運當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12047.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12070.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
所以沒有所謂您講的這個質疑F16的部分之前已經有做過說明應該來的都來了但是我想大家最關心的就是F16V的戰機跟美國購買這些新進武器來提升國防戰力絕對是不分黨派大家都會支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12071.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12090.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
但是我們看到總不能說預算編了但遲遲都不到貨影響我國的這個武器的需求嘛即使是一選我們政府對政府的G2G的採購程序經過歸根到底它是一種商業行為嘛但是對於美方遲延交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12091.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12112.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
國防部似乎也沒有辦法拿出一套具體的作為去督促只有做出呼籲而已所以我請問院長對於說行政院版的軍購特別條例對於這樣的商購採購的行為未來有沒有任何的風險的管控與履約擔保的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12116.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12133.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
委員問的是軍購還是商購的部分軍購跟商購都含在內軍購的部分的話之前有回答就是軍購是政府對政府所以我們在每個軍購都會成立專案辦公室然後會管控相關的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12135.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12159.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
軍購的部分當然如果你要問的是有沒有辦法有一個賠償那剛也說明沒有辦法做一個賠償的請求但是因為是政府對我們的承諾所以是美國政府對我們的承諾然後美國政府會要透過他的我們的相關的旅業管理的作為再去督促他的合約商來完成這樣子所以對政府之間我們就是一個承諾嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12160.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12187.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
對 但是歷來都會透過來協商來接近合約中也不會去寫明這些相關的這個如果慈顏到貨有沒有相關的賠償都不會 或者相關的責任慈顏到貨是確實在軍購的項目上面是沒有辦法做這樣的要求但是軍購按以剛剛講F16來講我們現在要求要加速所以他們也進行兩班制然後呢也整個將產線呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12189.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12208.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
做個這個大幅的改進所以你講的現在包括在試飛也在在線上都已經有59架的這個飛機我想透過這樣的協商他們會加速來產製運交是所以是沒有辦法去要求他們如果沒有辦法要求他們部長我請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12210.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12227.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
對於我們國民黨版的第7條第7條的規定不曉得這個部長有沒有詳細閱讀就是主管機關因專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行進度及績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12228.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12253.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
本條例所列預算的執行審計機關應依法辦理審計審計機關審核各機關依本條例辦理之軍事採購及相關建構計劃如發現因工人員違法或失職自計劃執行進度或交付成果顯著未達核定目標或其執行成效低於核定進度的50%者應將執行機關首長及相關主管移送監察院調查懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12254.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12276.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
主管機關及其上級機關應依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰略建構部長你暫時這樣的一個草案條文嗎我們特別條例本來就是每會期都要向立法院提出專案報告就是說條例通過然後預算通過之後也是要這個之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12277.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12294.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那個海空戰力特別提升的條例還有F16都是這樣子的所以第一項有支持我想我們把它明文化你贊成這樣的一個條文的一個草案嗎有關那個第一項的部分我只是說明就是說我們已經有像 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12295.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12318.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
每年都會向立法院提出報告然後我想審計機關也會依法辦理審計這個應該都是無用無帶規定就我們依照這個相關的決議還有審計機關也都會依法來辦理這個應該是沒有需要要寫在這個條例裡面嘛那至於有關那個沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12320.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12325.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
第三項沒有達到50%這個部分我想剛剛已經說明了就是說這個政府對政府我們會來進行協商然後來進行改進我想這個部分因為這個延誤交運的這個延誤然後就要送這個監察院調查懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12343.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12368.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
在我們看起來這個應該也沒有必要是部長我想在野黨就是具一個監督的一個角色對於相關軍購的延擋我們還是希望就是催促我們國防部相關的官員在這方面要跟美方積極的去做溝通因為就是看到說這個F16都可以延擋那麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12370.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12385.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
錢都給了那麼多,結果延宕那麼久所以我們才會有這樣一個草案的一個版本所以部長認為,如果認為說這個是本來就有做我想把它明文化,這不是更好嗎所以你說沒有必要,我也覺得很訝異啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12386.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12402.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
發明文化 至於說要不要去移送監察院來懲處說因為延宕造成整個計畫的執行我想這個也是督促我們相關官員要確實落實整個計畫執行的必要性嘛這都有它必要性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12403.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12421.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
所以部長我覺得把它明文化是很好的一件事情啊所以你不贊成我不曉得為什麼不贊成我想我們本來就是接受立法院的一個監督啦所以我的意思就是說接受立法院的監督這一件事情就一直持續在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12424.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12447.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我想這個等到討論的時候我們大家還會有一番爭執啦那我是建議說整個軍購還是要有落實我們的監督計畫執行的整個的成效我想這一點非常很重要我們所有才會去做一個明文的一個規定啦好 以上 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林世民委員接下來我們請沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12465.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12467.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
好謝謝主席齁那這個有請部長謝謝請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12476.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12498.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
是 沈委員好 這個這個已經 這個國防特別條例提出來已經好幾個月了那這個好不容易 這個在我們這一個陳冠廷召委的這個努力之下我們現在有辦法來審查但是我覺得當然我們接下來還有禮拜三跟禮拜四會做逐條的審查所以我想說這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12499.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12520.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
內容詳細的大概逐條審查的時候大家再來討論就可以可是我就一直在想就是說這一個國防現在造成的空窗期我覺得這還是一個很大的關鍵因為去年從去年開始討論這個國防條例這個在野黨一直有很多的理由說不審一下說是要國情報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12521.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12539.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
一下又說什麼這一個不透明其實有記者會也有機密會議機密會議又不來所以就是說那他們前面講的這些理由現在也都還在如果按照他們的宣稱這個情勢沒有任何的改變那為什麼現在就可以進入委員會審呢我覺得這個其實都是為了選舉而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12541.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12556.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那為了選舉然後才來審這一個軍共對我來講我覺得是一個不能接受的事情那會不會選舉完了之後然後又開始不審了我們的國防總預算其實現在也還躺在立法院總預算到現在也都還沒有審所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12557.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12582.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這一方面我覺得我們在禮拜三禮拜四審查的時候我覺得可能要放在心裡面是因為如果他從頭到尾如果在野黨只是為了一個政治表演的話那我們接下來要再往下不管是這一個行政院版的然後還是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本這樣再審查下去的時候這個內容很多我覺得會對國防部至愛難行所以我想先針對這些至愛難行的部分來問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12582.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12605.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
第一個就是說這幾個版本第一個很大的差別就是第一條對於這個目的國防部一直以來就是台灣之盾跟非紅公應鏈這兩個我覺得是重中之重它不一定是佔最多的金錢但是它其實是整個我們對於防衛的核心而且需要長期的計畫那現在國民黨版跟民眾黨版本是沒有非紅公應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12607.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12624.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那沒有飛鴻供應鏈這個對我們來講其實我剛有提到我們的國防總預算本身就已經有跟無人機相關的這個也跟我們對內的偽製跟商購這個也有關係這也跟我們要怎麼扶持台灣的產業有關係我們今天在戰備這整個需求上面如果我們今天還要仰賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12625.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12638.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
獨裁國家我們才有辦法去得到我們的軍備的時候這個在備戰一定會出問題所以我覺得光是第一條在這一開始的目的就已經不一樣這個往後先不要講說什麼金額寫死啦項目寫錯啦匯率的問題啦這個都先不談 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12642.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12669.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
光是在這一個第一條非紅供應鏈沒有存在在這一個目的之下我覺得在這個一開始我們對於金額的討論可能就會遇到很大的落差那是我可不想跟國人說明一下就是雖然在國防部的記者會也都有提過這在還不觸及因為機密會議有一些是我們在機密會議在這邊已經問過很多次了但在不觸及機密的狀況之下是我可以再跟國人強調一下非紅供應鏈對我們的一個重要性非紅供應鏈我想會 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12672.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12700.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
明顯的呈現在有關我們因應新型型態的戰爭我們要建構的這個特別是無人的這個載具的不對稱戰力因為現在這個無人載具的這個產業鏈如果沒有辦法在國內自主而且形成一個非紅供應鏈的話對我們整個國防自主還有治安的威脅是相當相當的高那因為大家都很清楚現在商用無人機的市場上面中國的無人機是佔了 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12703.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12728.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這個可能七成八成這樣子的一個那所以所有的這些民主國家大家都有一個共同的意識就是要來排除那台灣呃身在這一個呃這個我們要來強化不對稱戰力那特別是無人載具的產業鏈的發展的時候一定一定要排除這個紅色的工的鏈的部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12729.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12747.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
在這個為了要讓他能夠有一個紅色供應排除紅色供應鏈我們一定要有一個足夠的一個需求規模這樣的一個足夠的需求規模才讓廠商願意去投資然後才能夠讓這個世界各國願意將他的技術跟我們一起共同研發或者進行移轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12749.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12768.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這個部分是非常非常重要的那沒有沒有這樣子的一個產業規模的建立你要打造一個排除這個紅色供應鏈的一個所謂的無人載具幾乎是不太可能謝部長因為現在就不是只有這個我們台灣自己現在日本跟韓國整個軍備都在提高當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12769.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12795.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
像歐洲對這個的需求也很大他們都需要飛鴻供應鏈所以在這個禮拜的經濟學人有一篇文章他就在講說他說台灣的無人機產業現在後來居上尤其是在飛鴻供應鏈盡量在零件的製造上面有這個Made in Taiwan這是經濟學人現在特別點名說台灣後來居上然後而且可以符合飛鴻供應鏈的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12795.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12817.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那我就覺得很詭異的就是說如果這個是一個台灣現在的產業發展我們又可以打入這一個世界民主同盟的供應鏈然後別人還特別點名說台灣現在價格還可以壓得比其他國家來得低特別點名的狀況之下這是一個台灣的這整個產業發展的需求然後也是我們國防的需求但我們就拖了那麼多個月到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12818.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12836.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
不但沒有辦法審這個中間的過程不審國防條例就算了我們面對的是鋪天蓋地的謠言他們不斷的故意去造謠說台灣的哪一個產業本來是做A的現在為什麼來做B就故意要汙名化現在要起來的產業我覺得這個很麻煩是因為我們現在好不容易進入到委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12837.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12856.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我今天在這邊坐了一整天我照樣還是聽到就是在講說這個多少沒有到貨我們錢付了多少出去這個六千億這個謠言已經多久了不管是國防部不管是我們的行政院不斷的去告訴對方講說有些根本還沒有到貨的我們還沒有付款 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12857.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12879.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
專庫你要轉了好幾首才會到對方的手上但這個謠言沒有要停止的意思他們就是一直要給民眾一個刻板的印象說我們就是有軍購延宕他們就是要做監督但我們在29項裡面明明就是那三項而且F16V我看國防部現在也去看了這個現在F16V的這個進展這66家的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12881.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12904.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那這些我們應該再更用力的傳達給國人因為他們只要一直這樣不斷的造謠讓民眾有這樣的刻板印象我們在這邊要去守護這個特別預算就會變得更為困難現在民意是對於國防條例要審是有這樣的壓力不然的話這個其實根本就不會進入到委員會就是因為有選舉有壓力現在才好不容易進入委員會但現在才是戰場的開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12906.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12934.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
在這個禮拜三禮拜四之前照樣又會有相關的報導相關的謠言要去污蔑國防部在這邊就拜託國防部在這幾天應對謠言之上要能夠再盡速的去回應我們禮拜三禮拜四在看西部的條文的時候才能夠再跟國人清楚的說明說為什麼這是我們需要的因為時間因素你看現在台灣之盾這個部分還沒有講到光是飛鴻攻略這其實有太多太多的東西可以討論而且畢竟有一些是 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
12935.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
12953.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
機密會議的過程我們機密會議我們都是全程坐在這裡太多人根本就沒有來機密會議那他不來機密會議的目的就是因為他不來機密會議他就不知道內容他不知道內容他就可以在外面造謠他一旦進來了他得到這些機密的資訊他就知道他不能亂講話他就不能在外面造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
12954.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
12978.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
所以我覺得我們針對這件事情希望我知道國防部有去跟各個委員說明這個說明更多他們就越難在外面去造這些謠言這個對我們守護台灣的預算才會有幫助那因為時間的因素因為今天很多人要問所以我就不再佔用這個時間先謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員好 謝謝沈伯陽委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
12988.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
12990.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
感谢赵伟 我请顾部长请顾部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
12998.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13027.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
部長 強化國防是朝野的共識但是在特別條例中這個是八年 長達八年的國防資源的配置未來特別是兩岸的問題所以我們在國防戰力上怎麼樣接下來買的相關的軍備可以準時到貨當然我認為不分朝野黨派我們都期待期望有一個更完整的一個監督機制大家都可以看得到國人也可以很清楚了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13028.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13044.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
今天大家都一直在談F16V交貨的問題但是時到今天為止我們都知道不管是過去有因為疫情的因素或者是因為在前一段時間有因為生產線搬運的關係複雜等因素的延宕有不同的因素延宕但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13047.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13066.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
現在事實是F16V仍舊是還沒有交貨這還是事實我再次強調就是說在這個過程當中國防部曾經有提到說第一次是112年的5月份你們有提到說因為疫情原因所以交貨的延期 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13067.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13094.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
113年第三季當時的回應是說可以交貨但是114年11月份又說受到產線的影響這過程當中其實有兩年半的空窗就是說在研判國防部到底是什麼時候知道115年全數交貨是有問題就是說有可能會延擋因為之前你們跟我們講說有可能還是可以如期的交貨這個評估是美方告訴你的還是我們自己判斷之後的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13097.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13110.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
跟委員報告 我想首先要說明我們有二十幾項的這些裝備那麼剛剛已經講了很多的部分都有準時或者甚至提前交易我們一直集中在F16B的一個交貨的詞彥的部分而且我們已經不曉得說了幾遍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13123.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13143.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那麼對於我們F6B有關於我們這個交貨的這個遲延的部分也一再的去說明我們認為美方應該要改進的部分那美方也做了相當程度的改進那我今天也說了我們對於第一架沒有我就不再問你這個問題我請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13145.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13160.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
接下來這個所有我們的軍購他交貨與不交貨或者會不會延宕有沒有可能延宕不知道這是未來的未知數你們研判的標準是根據美方告訴我的我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13161.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13177.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
或者是因為中間過程有很多有可能是不可控的因素譬如說原料可能會缺等等這是未來有可能會發生事也許不會但是你們一般評估判斷他會不會延宕你們是用什麼樣你們是自己判斷還是根據他的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13178.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13199.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我跟委員報告所有的軍購案都會成立一個監審的專案團隊成立這個專案辦公室我們都有派人在那個地方會有一個綿密的協調跟定期的會議甚至防場的集合我們來掌握那麼所有現在世界各國願意用政府對政府給我們提供軍購的只有美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13201.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13222.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
只有美國所以我們跟美國之間透過這樣子一個軍購的程序已經有長年的一個這樣子的一個經驗那美國政府對我們的承諾也是一種保證那麼美國政府跟我們之間在進行協商的過程當中他都會希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13223.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13239.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這一個他們的合約廠商能夠加緊做他們的一個產制所以我最後只要講說我們不能夠因為F16V的一個個案而延宕那就不能夠代表說我們就不要再積極的建構強化我們的戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13241.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13246.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我沒有說不買喔我只問你 我剛剛是問你說我們是怎麼樣去做判斷因為兩岸的關係我們隨時我們買不到那我們在軍備上的調整我們是不是要有什麼樣其他的覆案這是我後面要問的我沒有問你說 我沒有說不買喔你不要把話灌在我身上喔那我第二個問題我就要請問因為今天時間也非常有限喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13264.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13277.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
就是說商購跟偽製的項目的風險的控管的部分因為我們這一次特別有編了3000億要去做商購跟偽製的控管的部分但因為過去有一個潛力就是在我們在陸軍2022年建構採購的聯合高空的 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13281.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13297.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
精準的遙控空投系統等等但是也因為我們不是軍購我們是商購那所以最後因為沒有認證沒有寄令所以到最後包括我們跨軍種整合出現了瓶頸所以這就是商購相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13299.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13308.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這個未來你們在商購的部分我們如何去做過去因為我們有發生過潛力怎麼去做防範我希望這個部分你後續用書面回應我我最後一題我想請問部長在這一次在這一次伊伊的美國對伊伊的戰爭當中有軍事家分析認為說每一次實戰事實上都是我們下一次衝突的教科書美國在這一次伊伊戰爭中各種飛彈系統防禦系統其實都用上了 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13326.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13344.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
但是伊朗所有偵察機也都是用中國大陸北斗衛星的系統包括薩德愛國者頻頻發射中國大陸從這一次的實戰當中我們也好像也從很多的新聞資料當中也了解就是說他不費一兵一卒掌握了非常多的情資跟參數那我就要請問部長針對這樣的問題我們如何去有沒有什麼樣的因應策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13352.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13377.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們針對世界各國的武器狀況使用情形在我們整個戰略規劃裡面跟兵力整建當中我們都會列入考量那這些項目當中公開的資訊裡面有些不見得是準確的那我們還是要依照我們跟有門國家相關的情資有更正確的資料之後來針對我們的整個戰略規劃跟兵力整建 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13377.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13379.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
你們後續有去做一些研擬跟分析我們現在就已經在進行分析了 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13391.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13410.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好 那我要請問一下就是說在這一次當中包括相關的我們過去包括我們講說鐵穹鐵穹原本有80%到90%的攔截率但是因為伊朗它用飽和式的攻擊所以它整個攔截率低於50%或甚至只有50%左右那在這個過程當中我們得到什麼樣的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13416.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13438.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
貓委員 鐵熊它是一個專門性的它主要的功能是攔截火箭 破砲跟砲彈這是它的專業所以我剛剛講 我們每一次戰爭過後不管是發生在我們這邊或我們周遭我們都要從中 隨時到一些教育對 但一樣它這一次使用的手法是相當不一樣的所以我們獲得的資訊我們也會納入我們後來建構台灣之盾的一個參考所以你們是滾動式的調整嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13442.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13459.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
推動線看起來你們好像從剛剛講你們已經知道要買什麼但是我提的是說你看現在中東的戰局那兩邊的就是對峙那我們後續是不是不進有要再去做其他的調整那就你剛才講的你們可能要再去做調整所以我們才再一次的強調說一次編八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13462.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13489.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
買這麼長遠的東西會不會太長或者是太多或者是我們用逐年的方式來去做編列多編列幾個特別條例但不是一次編列這麼長這個是我最後要提的建議以上我的時間已經到了我想我們都持續的在不斷的建議無人載具我們也不是說就一次去買八年我們會來掌握這個整個一個跟這個創新的一個進程好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13491.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13511.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
好謝謝李運雄委員接下來我們請劉書斌委員好有請保安部部長請顧部長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13524.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13544.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我們看到的是在現在的這個全軍的邊線比的變化到去年都會從2010年開始2021年開始之後就一直在這個80%以下它所影響的是會是暫時根本沒有發揮它編制擁有的全部戰力還有裝備沒有人 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13545.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13572.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
操作的這個問題那請問現在有沒有什麼改變的方式讓我們的一般公民能夠越多的想要去從軍呢跟委員報告事實上我們去年的邊線比已經有提升那我們的遊營率也提升我們志願役的人數也增加超過應該是四千多個了所以我們整個逐年我們希望能夠改善我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13574.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13593.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
改善我們的邊線比流盈利跟我們增加我們的這個志願役人數時間有限啊 顧部長我是不是要你的那個方法事後再給我好不好我們去年有到增加這個戰鬥加急的這個部分這個我想是有幫助的我們會後再跟委員做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13598.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13605.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好謝謝我們繼續再往下看今天最重要當然是因為國防的軍購的這個部分那我們看到的是一個問題現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13608.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13629.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
國防這部分呢我們想問的是有沒有依照113年的55年的兵力整建計畫去進行那我們現在看到的是您在行政院版的在這第4條的567項當中並沒有特別的去把詳細的內容說清楚當然我們更想問的是說你們應該是在這個因為在1月去年的11月27號有提出來就是院版的有提出來那提出來之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13633.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13657.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
當然美國也收到了啦 但是這邊我們並沒有收到的是說你們應該是有跟美國國防部 美國方面去提出來的這個LOR的request對不對那這邊台灣並沒有收到 後來我們再到兩個禮拜之前的時候呢 收到的是說就要想到這個LOA啦 那這個地方呢是不是應該要在去年的時候就應該提出來的 LOR的部分跟我們的立法院來做一下報告 這些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13659.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13682.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
跟委員報我想第一個就是說我們跟美方之間這個有關提出需求這個部分如果美方表達有初步的供受意願我們會編列預算那超過一定金額要報行政院同意之後我們再編入我們的相關的這個預算文件裡面那麼在美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13684.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13695.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
軍購的這個部分在他還沒有知會國會之前這屬於機密所以我們之前也有就這個特別條例我們有排一個機密的一個專報有將全盤的內容跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13698.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
13727.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
所有來參與的委員做一個完整的一個說明所以等到花架書來然後說才要這個有一個特別條例然後再通過特別預算這個是絕對絕對是來不及而且也治安難行那麼跟委員報告就是條例跟預算是不一樣的條例只是規定一個大致的能力架構那我們沒有在規避大院的審查預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
13727.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
13742.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
特別條例還是要送到委員會來啊所以沒有什麼空白授權也沒有採購內容不透明這個問題為什麼一定要一再把條例跟預算一直混淆呢沒有 我現在跟你講你剛才因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
13744.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
13765.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
沈博洋委員有提到我們民眾黨現在八席立委當中目前因為有六位是新的其實都沒有經過到參加過這樣的一個秘密會議的部分那您在3月11號也承諾說這個部分呢應該對民眾黨的委員們要做一下這個報告關於說當初在秘密會議所開的內容是不是您現在能夠承諾一下在可能在禮拜三禮拜四之前找個機會來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
13767.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
13790.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我想第一個這個貴黨的委員的更衣這個不是我能夠去控制這是貴黨做了更動那這個第一個第二個相關機密的部分為了要確保這個機密所以要請這個召委來同意排一個機密的專報我們才能夠做機密的一個說明那不然的話這些機密的專報萬一流出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
13795 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
13807.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那到時候沒有辦法有人來來負責嘛所以如果委員覺得因為大家都這個會計才新道論那想要再有一次的好了解了部長因為我時間有限我繼續再問你因為照國防部的規劃的時候呢這樣子的預算呢這樣子一個建軍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
13815.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
13839.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
兵力的整建是一個長期的嘛至少是五年的部分那未來的地方因為還有第二波那第二波的時候像這個LOR的部分是不是也可能有機會跟台灣跟我們的立法院來去做用機密報告的機密會的方式來去呈現呢還是其實這個LOR都是沒辦法的其實我們最後都只能被LOA來去處理就是來去審議就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
13844.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
13866.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那份文件叫LOR for LOA,那是我們的發價書需求信函,在美方智慧國會結束之後給我們的是LOA,然後LOR它分好幾種,LOR第一種我們會提出來是LOR for P&A,是去巡價用的,就是對方的供售意願跟巡價的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
13867.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
13880.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那我們也有可能美方在作業程序上面如果認為比較趕他會要求我們提出一個LOR for ROM就是那叫出估報價需求信函那這整個作業程序事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
13882.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
13896.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
發架書本身是整個軍購作業裡面的產物而不是規劃文件他已經到了對方出具白紙黑字給我們說所以立法院最後就只有LOA的部分如果能夠比較時間比較充足的時候就來審議是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
13898.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
13906.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以我們還是建議大院應該按照計畫預算制度裡面好 如果講到這裡我就往下看 這就是講到講到因為在113年的時候呢 國防部事實上在8月30號已經提了五年兵力整建跟施政計畫報告那事實上紛紛在立法院的預算啊 國防的施政報告啊 國防部的報告書114年都有 立法院的國防部跟預算評估報告等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
13922.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
13934.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
這些部分其實在三艦戰這種幾個計畫當中呢都已經呈現出來了所有的艦艦都需納入聯合戰力規劃要項跟五年兵力整建計畫這些部分呢也看到到是說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
13935.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
13961.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
以照現在的從你們現在目前的這個已經提供給立法院的部分來呈現出來的規模會持續擴大啦大概年度的投資會增加是國造跟軍購會有這個一千兩百億的這樣子的規模這部分看到內容上面這樣寫所以呢其實是有的那我所以才問的說現在的目前所提出來的這個條例的部分是不是有預兆或是未來整建計畫是不是真的要五年成立計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
13961.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
13987.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
包委員我們所有的建案都必須要納入五年兵力整建計畫之後才可以執行建案建案文件完成之後才可以編列預算這是我們的規定好 但是你知道嗎這個部分一直到3月7號才呈現在國防部裡面的新聞稿才呈現之前的時候其實並沒有那麼多的稱號說我們才會覺得說根本就不是讓大家可以很清楚的明白的這樣子一個情形我們的五年兵力整建計畫的詳細具體的內容是屬於機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
13993.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14009.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
可是我們在看到的是剛剛我說那三項的兵力整建計畫他散佈在這些部分其實已經看到這樣的規模了那這部分我要呈現出來是說其實現在如果您已經有出現到有這樣的五年兵力計畫等等就是一個長期的一個規劃預算那應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14013.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14027.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
長期的規劃有節奏去施政那為什麼去不去編入到經常性的預算來做正常的審查程序啊這些部分才會是真正才讓立法院能夠好好去監督啊而且呢如果說像現在講的話呢1200億或是9500億的話呢那就應該會有一張多的這樣的形態如果這樣講的話其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14038.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14038.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那部長你的看法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14061.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14085.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
就陳茹明列出來的資料一樣我們有數百個持續案不需要支付所以我們115年的新增案的額度只有80億元可以支付那如果這裡照2500億全部要用公務預算來支付照目前我們的規劃加上案項還有其他我們規劃當中必須執行勢力造成諸多案項根本沒有辦法支付或是造成我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14087.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14101.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
沒有 你年度這樣算你今年不是變到9500億的嗎而且你的1.25兆你除以8年的話不是也是增加大概1.5億而已嗎你這樣加起來其實就是平均每年大概就是這樣子啊這沒有辦法進行的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14105.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14131.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
喂好 我是主席局局長剛剛委員所提到的9495億其實它包含了好幾個面向年度公務預算我們國防部編列了5614億其他還包含特別預算還有海巡署跟輔導會編列有關國防預算的相關的額度所以加起來是9495億但是如果說把這個1.25兆編到年度預算的話1.25兆如果你是照五年的建軍計畫去進行的話其實年度平均的話就是會達到這樣的部分啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14132.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14153.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
民眾黨的意思就是在說 你應該就是照變成經常性的 常備性的預算去進行而不要用特別預算的方式去進行那這樣的話 其實每年扒起來 尤其你們現在一下框的是八年啊一點後照謝謝劉委員 要不要請他們書面回覆你書面回覆可以嗎 就對我這邊的一個疑問我們會再跟委員做個說明 好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14158.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14164.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
這邊的確需要多一些說明的 好 謝謝謝謝趙委員謝謝委員 那接下來我們請牛許廷委員謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長是 牛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14183.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14202.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
部長辛苦了這個話說從頭本期在去年的12月跟今年的2月分別自費都做了民意調查就針對這個軍購國防相關的議題要了解台灣民意的真實走向那我簡單跟部長交換一下意見這個民意調查的結果基本上顯示大概都有六成左右的民眾是支持國防預算增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14202.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14223.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以我想這大家在國防預算的合理增加上面其實是有比較高的一個社會的共識但我們今年二月多做的題目就是你支不支持這個院版1.25兆的這樣一個特別預算這樣一個版本那就發現這個不同意的人其實是略大於同意呈現非常非常分歧的一個狀況這個顯見台灣社會對於這1.25兆突然之間跑出來的版本其實還是有蠻有疑慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14224.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14252.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
那我想我們身為在野黨的立法委員國民黨也好 民眾黨也好大概都基於民意反應的一個結果我們要在支持國防預算的合理增加跟但不要一次過頭或者是造成社會質疑的地方其實在兩者之間要取得平衡這就是為什麼到最後在野黨也提了非常多的這個自己版本的國防特別預算條例這個我們應該好好討論這個如何來編列這筆錢這個條例的內容如何來做取捨這我希望在這個禮拜的討論會中大家可以理性的來做討論那我今天要準備這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14253.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14273.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
就叫這個部長的題目大概是這樣子的因為我們對美軍購的部分其實看起來是分階段來做進行也就是說這第一階段比較明確的包含這個M109A7的自走炮海馬4這個反甲型無人機飛彈系統等等這個基本上已經拿到了這個發架書那還有所謂的第二波也就是所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14275.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14300.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
反制無人機系統還有各類型的反彈道和防空的飛彈還有低空防空系統和反甲飛彈的儲量補充這幾項看起來是還沒有拿到這個相關的這個發價書這些後面的這個籌購的這些項目這個看起來還是在美國的戰爭部的內部討論的階段甚至都還沒有送到美國的國會我想請教一下我們國防部針對你們長期以來應該是一直在保持對話的一個狀態對於這幾筆的這個金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14303.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14324.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
或者是發架書大概什麼時候會通過美國的國會什麼時候會拿到有沒有時間表官委員先跟委員報告我們所謂軍購我們是依照我們的需求提出是沒有所謂分階段的那其實我們在這次特別預算裡面所有的發架書需求信函都是在去年同一個時間提出去的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14325.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14344.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那另外我們針對目前還沒有智慧國會的項目一直在跟美方竊取聯繫那我們所掌握到的他們已經完成了跨部會的聯審那目前也會按照審查的期程在完成相關程序之後進行智慧國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14345.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14370.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
這是目前我們掌握到的訊息這當然是程序大家應該都還蠻清楚的但大家要知道的就是那個時間點的問題因為按照台灣關係法以及等等相關美國國內的法規的規範基本上美國國會在審議的過程中大概不太容易出現異議這過去的案例顯示即便沒有急著排審他也會再送過一個月之後自動取得通過這樣一個資格但是現在的狀況就是還沒有送到國會所以我的問題其實是這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14372.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14391.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
有沒有具體的時間表就你當然積極溝通這本席完全理解也非常支持但是你積極溝通的結果然後他還沒有完成聯繫審議那有沒有明確的時間比如說大概幾月幾月的時候他會送進國會幾月的時候我們會正式取得這個發價數因為這其實跟大家版本的整合跟金額調整都是密切相關的嘛所以是不是能夠這邊有明確的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14391.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14410.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我想這個就要看美方那邊,我們這邊沒有辦法幫美方做回應OK,那我再問一個問題,過去我們的國防特別預算,走特別條例特別預算的,有在沒有拿到美國智慧國會程序還沒完成之前,我們就先編列條例跟預算的前例嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14413.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14424.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那個是特別條例嗎?應該不是吧?那個是正常公寓算吧?那是特別條例但是顯然在後續的過程中也出現了一些問題跟毛病對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14426.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14451.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
報告委員其實他那個案子還是按照我們目前正常的計畫預算制度跟軍購申請申請審核程序走並沒有什麼不一樣也沒有說先拿到發價書再去做處理OK這點本席願意尊重但我要把問題把它問完就我之所以會花很多時間去討論這個第二波的這個發價書的問題原因是這樣的就過去這個恐怕也不符合過去的往例喔路透社在3月13號的報導裡面直接稱這個川普 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14453.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14477.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
總統說訪中後才會批准所謂的140億美元其實就是我們大家講的這個階段的發價數碼才會批准這所謂的對台軍售這個尚在審核中的軍購項目啊這個通過了時間跟我剛剛問你時間點你說你在努力溝通不見得能夠明確回答這本席了解但既然有外媒做了披露就是說這可能會跟這接下來川喜會掛鉤啊國防部目前評估的狀況怎麼樣會不會跟川喜會掛鉤 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14478.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14493.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
我想有關這些外媒的評論,我們都予以尊重,我們沒有任何的相關的進一步的評論那麼我們會跟美方持續的溝通,然後希望能夠盡早的來取得相關的完整智慧國會的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14493.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14517.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
也就是說你們立場不變好是因為這樣我之所以會再問這個問題是這樣就我們陸委會的副主委啊就是申友中在3月17號的時候接受媒體訪問的時候有講啊就是說這個政府在研判川習會的時候大概一定會談到跟對台軍購有關的也就是說我們政府內部的評估啊很有可能這個題目會在川習會上變成一個談判的這樣的議題這個軍售到底順不順利很有可能取決於啊川普的個人意志跟態度這我們都推過 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14518.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14546.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這個美國的決策模型這當然是很有可能的那這樣子你們當初在內部討論的時候說研判這個題目可能會被拿到川習會的時候這個理論上應該是一個我們內部政府在做沙盤推演的內部會議啊這場內部會議我們的陸委會推估會被拿到談判期間這場內部的溝通會議的時候國防部有沒有參加我想我們就國防部的立場我們跟美方的相關的包括戰爭部跟國務院我們都是在進行這個有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14548.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14574.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
整個建案程序的一個溝通那麼美光我們會提出來但是美方有一個初步的供售意願那我們根據這個美方的初步供售意願來編列相關的預算那這一次納入特別預算的項目也是經過跟美方溝通的美方當然對我們講他有意願然後他往前推進這都沒有錯的這本席無一質疑台美關係但問題是客觀擺在前面的問題就是川崎會形成了一個很大的變數因為除了四月然後他現在因為中東的戰爭往後推遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14577.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14603.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這陸委會在那場的訪問裡面他在透露啊還有可能有三場川習會對不對有APEC G20的啊甚至有可能川普的回訪等等這些會不會都會造成軍購啊實際上的變數我們就跟我們相關的對口單位來看的話他們的工作的意願並沒有改變工作意願並沒有改變沒有 沒有改變那照理來講應該就會很順利的理論上應該在四月的時候就可以通過國會的審議是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14605.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14611.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我們當然很期待這個美胖能夠儘速完成他們內部的審查程序然後進行智慧國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14621.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14638.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
在黨的版本的數字非常的保守然後一度上在很多的政治攻防這我們就暗下不表但是我必須要講的事情是很多時候它有在這個過程中如果出現很大的變數的時候你先把預算框在那個地方或先把條例框在那個地方到最後萬一真的這些變數成真了然後造成軍購狀況的受挫 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14639.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14667.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
他很有可能會變相的造成財政的部分的排擠這是在野黨我覺得要表達出來一些立場因此我們也再次在這個地方強調在野黨雖然一開始的數目比較低但是我們也都有對外有做明確的政治承諾跟宣示嘛如果這個美方的發價順序這個發價程序可以順利來做執行當然在項目上跟金額上當然有可以討論的空間但前提是要能順利執行這就是為什麼本席今天在這邊問一定是問川習慧會不會造成變數有沒有具體時間表的原因嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14668.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
14686.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那不是還沒有什麼最後的要補充嗎因為今天大家都要執行就是說在同一個條例裡面提出一個預算的上限不代表我們就能夠通過相關的預算因為具體的預算還要經過大院的審議所以條例跟預算是分開來看的不是說條例通過了我們好像預算就不要送到立法院來審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
14688.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
14711.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
實務上來講大家基本上在條例的過程中因為討論的是最大的框架跟大的範圍嘛所以我想通過之後實務上來講這些特別預算在預算審查的時候大家都是老江湖的也知道並比較不會有這麼多的一些爭議嘛所以當然框線的部分很有可能它到未來它很有可能就是被支用的這一點大家當然各有各的說法這本集願意理解預算的距離還是要送立法院來審議啊當然當然當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
14712.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
14729.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
但實務上來講大家也會傾向比較相信的這樣一個態度因為現在貴黨提出來是說發價書拿到再有一個特別條例不是說在這個特別條例裡面框一個金額然後等到拿到所以如果真的你可以依時間裡面取得去發價書我們不會去為難對美軍購的預算嘛其實態度上就是這樣嘛所以我覺得今天這樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
14730.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
14750.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
部長 如果可以很順利 不管國防部 外交部 各方面都努力趕快去拿到發架書的話 這後面的審查就會順利嘛這就希望好好進行 這也是為什麼我今天都是問這些問題的原因啦這就希望國防部好好加油 我們就希望用這樣的心態 開放的來討論 可以嗎我還是說明就是說 條例是 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
14752.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
14779.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
一塊那麼預算要通過不通過還是要送到大院來進行審議啦當然那這個的時候跟貴黨提出來說我們另外再訂一個特別條例這兩個概念應該不同我覺得您認為概念是不同我認為是殊途同歸啊因為只要有我們的程序只要可以把它完備確保這些錢一定買得到花了出去而且有明確的期程我想在來黨是不會多做為難的啦好不好好今天因為時間有限啦後面還有很多委員要質詢感謝部長今天的回答謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
14782.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
14798.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
好謝謝謝謝劉委員接下來我們請黃建斌委員謝謝主席我們有請顧部長請顧部長黃委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
14806.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
14829.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
部長好 部長在討論軍購條約之前本席有一個議題想要跟部長來反映那剛好早上王定宇委員也提到就是關於這個八軍團搖搖拐驢這個彈殼大量8000多顆不見的這個情況本席記得以前我在當兵的時候我們光是打靶少一顆彈殼全年就要留下來在那邊燒炒 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
14831.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
14846.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
蛋殼 那八千顆不是一個少數目啦 我相信這應該是內部管理的問題啦不過我們確實要去檢討說這樣的一個制度經過二十幾年的他還是不是有檢討的必要那對於這些東西我想部裡面這邊也要來來想一下怎麼樣不要來讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
14847.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
14861.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
部隊裡面增加的工作量,同時也解決一些弊端的發現接下來開始,部長你擔任國防部長以來,整個國際的情勢變化非常大甚至我們整個戰爭的形態也改變了很多過去我們購買的反飛彈的系統,像愛國者、天宮這些飛彈的防禦系統也花費巨資 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
14868.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
14874.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那我們也新建了這個63雷達戰用來防衛中國這個導彈那這些武器確實有效的防衛中國的地對地導彈跟戰機但是我們從俄烏戰爭還有近期這個美以一戰爭我們發現到這些昂貴的系統沒有辦法有效的防衛無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
14887.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
14911.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那以這一次這個美伊戰爭為例這跟我們樂山雷達相同這個卡達長城預警雷達就遭到伊朗用大量的這個攻擊無人機再配合飛彈導彈飛彈來進行這個飽和式的攻擊那甚至號稱全球最先進的薩德飛彈防禦系統也因為沒有辦法防禦有無人機的攻擊而受損那美軍為了要避免這個高單價的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
14913.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
14929.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
武器被廉價的無人機消耗如今他們也在戰場上使用大量使用這個低成本的無人機來降低自己武器的這個消耗的成本那顯然現在的戰爭形態已經從高昂的武器轉變成這個低成本的消耗戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
14930.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
14945.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那過去我國建構的飛彈防禦系統確實保衛了中華民國但是當我們整個國際整個戰爭的形態改變的時候尤其我們要面對的是全世界無人機應用最大的中國的時候我們採購規劃的武器能不能夠防衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
14947.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
14973.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
國家的安全就非常的重要因此本席有幾個問題想要來跟部長請教那第一個從我們俄武戰爭 美戰爭來看那對付無人機就是要用低成本的方式那國防部今天在報告也一次強調說會購買各類型無人機的反制系統以防禦小型無人機飽和攻擊威脅可是你沒有說要用怎樣的規格的系統只是用很籠統的文字就要求說立法院要通過這個特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
14974.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
14992.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我的認知裡面他防禦的方式有分硬體跟軟體那你有低中高空的這方式那這些東西其實都沒有講到各位部長對於我國這無人機的防禦系統國防部的初步規劃是什麼那面對大型中型小型的自殺無人機我們的規劃的預警跟防禦系統又是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
14994.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15021.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
委員這個問題是蠻好的就是說我們要反制無人機我們要結合硬砂跟軟砂那所以我們現在因為是屬於條例的部分那麼整個具體的這個建案的部分我們會在預算的時候會提出來有一些是我們現在已經可以做一些說明那有一些還不能夠做對外做公開說明那我們這個部分包括不管是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15022.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15026.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
低成本的或者是我們用對外的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15028.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15049.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
採購的方式,不管是低成本我們研發的部分,或者是對外採購的部分我們現在都是屬於我們要努力建構的一個方向感謝寶定,時間關我先問完了,我們再回答第二個問題就是武器,我們需要人力來操作,尤其購買20萬台無人機需要操作跟養護的人員就非常的大我們國軍現在無人機的訓練機構有分為陸海空還有海軍陸戰隊的訓練中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15054.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15076.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
目前我們的操作有點是否足夠應對這20萬台無人機的操作如果不足我們國防部預計規劃什麼時候要補足人力另外平時大家各自訓練都沒問題但是如果暫時要支援的時候我們要怎麼樣協同作戰那國防部現在是不是已經規劃讓各種軍種的無人機操作員進行協同作戰那我接下來再繼續問第三個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15078.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15106.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
我國的這些重要的武器很多都是向美國來採購那過去也發生過因為疫情的關係整個供應鏈中斷還有產能吃緊被迫延遲交貨那像我們2019年的這個採購的66架F16V的這個戰機一直到今年的3月16號才完成第一架的飛行測驗的這個驗證那嚴重影響我們我國的這個軍力的整備3月22號也有媒體說今年會啟動反國那本席就要問說那今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15107.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15130.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
什麼時候我們F-16會飛回來台灣那其他沒有交付的武器系統美國什麼時候會交付那接著我會再繼續提到了F-16我就要提到我這個重要的軍事設施絕對是敵方首要攻擊的對象那保存戰力就變得非常的重要那像F-16未來會到我們的治安基地 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15131.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15146.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那我們也看到說了解國防部現在規劃在治安基地要興建24座新型的這個抗炸的機堡請問目前完成有多少那其他的軍用機場是不是有比照要來興建這樣的防禦的這個機堡那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15147.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15168.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
第五個問題就是之前我們有媒體有報導說是針對外島前線反制無人機的需求政府投入將近10億元的這個採購26套的這個系統由民間的某一個廠商得標但傳出產品未通過驗收軍方要求改善缺點後再行驗收那這個部分改善是不是已經完成這五個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15170.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15195.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
請部長簡單的回答就好簡單就好委員問的問題相當多我是不是先請作記事先就聯合作戰委員好我是作記事長首先感謝委員剛剛所提的這幾個問題正好是我們上禮拜也有做過整體的台灣之盾的提報那同委員所說的我們分作高中低的三層的分層防禦有效的攔截另外也針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15196.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15209.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
敵人的威脅就是他用各種形式對我們台灣本島的防衛來進行攻擊的時候當然對於高精密的這些遠程的火力我們會用精準的這個防衛的系統來進行防衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15211.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15230.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
對他低價低成本利用無人機等等來對我們進行我們會在各作戰階段當中規劃各種主動被動軟殺硬殺的防護系統來去使我們的部隊還有我們的關鍵基礎設施具有暫時的韌性那就這個作戰應用部分向委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15231.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15249.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
好 謝謝因為時間的關係我再問這個就是那這個我剛才提到第四點就是這個基堡部分這個部分是今年要開始規劃在智商暨地堡因為智商暨在我們台東所以我想要了解這個部分報告委員因為在東部的部分花蓮台東我們一直都有您也知道我們一直都有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15251.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15277.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
比較大型的這個地下的算是地下化的這個設施那在各基地也包含台東我們也都有規劃您剛剛提到這個抗2000磅炸彈的這個機庫那24座目前正在進行那另外在其他基地也有相同的工程目前正在進行中我印象中這個機堡都已經很久了我們花那麼多錢買這麼先進的武器結果最後不是被飛彈打掉是被自己的機堡砸壞掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15279.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15294.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
這個是抗2000磅的炸彈抗2000磅炸彈的疾苦那部裡面是不是有安排時間也能夠去台東來看一下了解哪些設施需要改善有其他基地正在進行類似的建案那如果有需要的話我們可以一併安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15295.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15302.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
提醒我們國防部採購武器一定要符合台灣的作戰需求特別是本席只強調作戰型態的改變以我國現在的經濟情況來看我們一定要建構一套適合我們國防發展的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15316.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15331.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那這個也就是國民黨為什麼強調就是每一項武器的採購必須依照台海作戰的需求來做採購那更要準時的交付啦那完成我們整個建案的程序這就是為了避免我買到不合適的武器那因為這不單單是 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15334.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15352.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
錢花了還影響到國家的安全那以上這就是本席這次的質詢那也請部長把本席今天提到的問題那在一個一周內那由書面報告來跟本席這邊來回報我們再請我們在會後再請到委員辦公室特別做個說明好不好感謝 感謝 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝黃建斌委員接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15369.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15371.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長我們請顧部長市委麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15382.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15404.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
部長今天我們特別看到今天的報告裡面國防部其實也承認近十年以來國防預算在全民以及立法院的支持底下其實都是大幅的調整那根據外媒的報導我們看到台灣制海飛彈密度已經達世界第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15405.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15420.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
防空飛彈密度僅次於以色列以達世界第二台灣戰機人均密度戰機數量跟台灣人口比例高高居全球第四平均每八萬人就擁有一架戰機這個話 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15423.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15425.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
主要代表什麼就是代表我們台灣在台灣每八萬國人就要負擔一架戰機的構制那平日它的運行跟維護妥善全民的負荷量高居全世界第四位遠高於聯合國的五常 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15439.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15459.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
現今全世界的軍事強國包括美國俄羅斯中國大陸印度日本韓國以及英法等國家所以我們看到這麼多的預算在大家都可以支持的情況之下而且也是每年越編越高我們可以看到相關的預算在2015年大概3300億左右那到2026年今年已經編列9495億不管你是不是有納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15468.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15494.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
NATO裡面他們所謂的相關的預算可是事實上它的運用你們也都是用在這個部分所以我們看到像部長之前你在說我們雖然有一些武器裝備它比較落後交付然後我們其他就不部署嗎 不是因為我們看到我們預算的編列可以很清楚的看到我們沒有因為它所有的交付延宕我們就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15496.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15500.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
就沒有同意所有的國防預算的支出或是編列反而越編越高可是我們在這一次特別預算為什麼會有一些不同的看法跟意見主要是我們的特別預算其實它已經變成常態化 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15512.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15525.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
甚至有腐爛的狀況因為在過去幾年在民進黨政府執政的這個過程當中我們編列了前瞻特別預算在疫情發生的時候編列了疫情特別的預算在 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15527.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15532.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
將近2500億編列了我們F16V戰機的一個構置然後還有海空戰力提升然後還有剛在幾個月前通過的國防任性預算相關的特別預算等等其實編列非常多可是特別預算編列的主要目的它其實是要有急迫性 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15551.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15568.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
而且是突發性而且又有相當的緊急性可是我們現在變成常態化這是不正常的而且我們騎乘一次編列長達8年可見其實它不是那麼急迫你一口氣要編那麼多我們剛剛看到這些相關的預算如果通通照這樣通過高達2兆以上這是非常多的當時2025年到2027年 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15575.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
15585.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
那時候不管是國外或國內所有相關的智庫或者我們很多的意見都說2025到2027年尤其是2027年存在大陸公台最大的風險而且他們也具備公台的能力所以當初要買F16V就是說因為中共建軍100週年所以我們也迅速編列了相關的這些特別預算可是到現在他就是還沒有來不管他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
15605.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
15615.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
在美方的產線是怎麼樣 它就是還沒有來今天我們要的是在這些過程當中 剛剛我們看到的剛剛念到前瞻特別預算 其實它沒有很好的成績我們所有的少子化在很多裡面 它通通有包括我們的智山防洪 這個也都在前瞻特別預算裡面有很多的交通建設也在前瞻預算裡面 它應該要做的 我們沒有看到成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
15628.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
15631.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
所以經過過去的經驗我們很希望我們在有限的預算之下尤其是國防預算在現在面對台海緊張的情勢我們應該要怎麼樣把這個錢用得最謹慎然後用得到位而且真正可以增加我們的戰力我們在說武器沒有交付我們看到有我們的將軍們去上節目的時候他說這是假消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
15656.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
15657.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
如果是假消息應該去對美國抗議因為這是從美國的智庫還有美國的國會講出來的他欠 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
15664.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
15670.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
就是他延遲交付給我們的高達215億美元這是6800多億的預算不是說你錢給他而是他應該交付而未交付所以這個如果是假消息就去跟美國抗議如果在這個部分我們還要講的因為你們到現在說只有三項延宕不是因為你們有一些更改了其成我舉幾個例子好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
15692.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
15697.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
魚叉飛彈 魚叉飛彈2020年以前已戰備急需 它是插隊立案的原來預計2023年可以陸續抵台服役 2025年全案完成2025年 現在已經2026年 可是原來的預算677億它突然增加189億變成866億 在那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
15716.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
15737.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
交運的期程也從2025年延到2029年就是說原來他交付的期程本來五年變成十年所以如果他在第九年交你們會對外說他提早一年交可是如果按照我們原來的期程他是慢了四年交這是第一個第二個次增飛彈106年到114年本來我們編了133億餘元要買500枚到114年 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
15745.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
15753.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我們又增購了1985枚但它本來應該到期的最後一年我們又增購了1985枚 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
15756.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
15759.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
他的金額增加到690億從133億增加到690億總計2485枚他的期程也因為增購所以從106年變成到120年那我想請教的是114年的500枚他全來了嗎這是第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
15776.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
15779.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
第三個愛國者非淡他在96年開始執行I2升級還有I3新構的相關的計畫在107年的時候他本來96年到110年要結案可是我們在109年 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
15793.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
15799.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
也是到期的前一年 我們又修改建案的文件又增購愛山增城旦 全案延長到116年我現在舉的是幾個比較大項的 這些延長的案子就是你們現在說它沒有延宕 因為你改了時間啊今天如果我們一般人 你們很喜歡講預售屋 今天如果預售屋要交給你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
15817.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
15835.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
結果要叫的時候你還有很多的問題你的水電還沒通然後你就是沒有辦法住你跟我說房子都已經蓋好了那是不對的因為你就是不能住所以當你把騎乘往後延的時候你不能告訴大家說那是假消息或者說其實他是按照騎乘在交付的那是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
15837.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
15854.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
這還是對美軍夠 他還是有專案辦公室我們相信有很多主客觀的條件因素他會影響這些可是包括國內的我們延宕的也非常多包括我們的潛艦包括現在有消息披露我們的永英號包括我們的彈藥產線連彈藥產線都延宕然後我們買火藥也延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
15863.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
15866.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
你現在買不到你就沒有辦法製造這些單要所以像這些問題它在在都會顯現我們戰力會發生非常嚴重的一個缺口而不是我們對預算不支持從過去到現在軍購預算更沒有不支持的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
15881.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
15905.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
發生所以這個部分我們請國防部在說明的時候要很務實的去面對今天大家只是希望我們在有限的國防預算底下你一次編了八年我們不知道你要買什麼啊你如果當時因為我們看到你們現在秀出來資料你們在去年十月八月甚至更早之前你們已經知道美國已經有同意哪些可是你們卻不不願意做 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
15907.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
15910.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
多做說明過去我們在國防外交委員會已經很長的時間只要美國或者我們提出需求的通常會做相關的報告而不是什麼都機密機密不是拿來用來搪塞的所以然後還可以讓立法委員很容易就入罪稍微拿出去然後就馬上告他洩密我們都深受其害所以當你有很 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
15933.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
15937.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
很確切的像這樣資訊的時候你就必須應該要告訴大家我們現在買的全部都是增購的我剛剛講的次增你們一直在說發酵說我們現在給的這樣金額你不夠我剛剛講次增本來只有130幾億當你要增購的時候馬上變成690億那是倍數增加然後數量也非常多他有碰到困難嗎沒有這個也是軍購 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
15958.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
15961.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
所以我們現在要的軍購包括海馬士包括其他的你說自走炮也好或者其他的彈藥我們現在都在軍購的程序當中或者剛剛結案所以他不會碰到任何困難如果有困難今天本席在這裡我是這個會期的召委另外一位召委陳委員也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
15978.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
15991.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
如果美方有同意軍售的部分其實我們可以立即安排來做這樣的審查不會延遲我相信在場的所有國防部的相關的官員你們經歷過這麼多剛剛部長也有提到我們軍事採購不是第一次所以不會有你們提到的這些相關的問題我剛剛講的這些你們發酵所都不斷的在修不斷的在修只要他其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16003.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16011.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
改了或者金額改了你們發酵說是可以修的啊所以不要讓國人有錯誤的印象這是我們特別要提出來的就這些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16012.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16036.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
部分因為時間的關係我們沒有辦法好好的去討論很多可是就商售的部分因為要買無人機也要買無人艇部長上一次如果有機會我們希望部長還有相關的重要的決策高層可以一起去看看我們過去買的無人機到底是什麼樣子包括像我們的中科院 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16037.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16038.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
從過去 其實它在20年前就開始有科研的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16044.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16048.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
包括我們的尖冰、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等我們科研的經費至少百億以上委託它生產的到目前使用的無人機可能花費也高達國防預算八百億以上可是我們看不到你們這一次編列的二十萬價的預算全部都要買商用的無人機過去花在中科院上面都用到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16069.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16088.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那時候來跟我們報告的時候都說我們的成果非常好結果現在全部都要買那個上一次上個會期我們剛去考察的時候我們看到無人機剛買的用我們中科院的反無人機系統鎖定以後三秒沒有誇張我們買那麼貴一架買六十幾萬八十幾萬我問在場的官員他們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16098.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16111.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
因為它有抗干擾的能力所以我們買了那麼貴可是它被鎖定以後不到三秒馬上失去自主飛行的能力而且如果沒有把那個移開它可能馬上掉下來所以我們看到我們買到的是什麼樣的無人機如果這些你可以運用在戰場上我們覺得對我們國家是國安是造成非常大的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16121.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16147.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
如果就這些部分我們還有時間一一來探討可是我們今天就整個我們特別條例的部分提出來我們還是希望大家可以客觀的去分析沒有人擋過應該運用的國防預算所以不要把那些責任或者你們沒有做到的全部都歸咎給在野黨的相關的委員今天如果你做得好大家沒有理由不支持可是我們的責任是必須要監督我剛剛說的那些到現在都還沒有做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16150.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16166.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
而且有一些還不能用所以我們去年買的反無人機系統還沒有測試通過耶那你們還要編好幾千億去買你在任性預算也有編錢啊內政部的任性預算也有編錢啊我們的公務預算也有編錢啊都要買無人機我們還有時間來討論就這個部分是不是部長要一個簡單的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16176.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16189.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
我想第一個就是說我們就公務預算的限制及編列特別預算的必要性今天在我們的報告的第九頁以下有做一個說明那剛剛委員提到的就是應該是九千多億吧那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16190.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16209.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
那事實上就含了我們預估的這個特別預算的部分所以就我剛剛有提到很多細節的部分今天我想剛剛委員花了很多時間做了很多的部分我想我們有機會再跟委員說明我們很希望就這個部分我們很有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16210.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16237.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
國防預算我們應該用在什麼地方應該怎麼樣讓國家更安全應該怎麼樣讓我們所有的國軍弟兄可以更安全這是我們主要的一個目的跟目標所以我們希望朝向這樣來做一個理性的討論而不是用對外放話或者去做其他的說明的時候有扭曲的現象因為我們覺得那是不能接受的所以如果像這樣我們有很多的案例我們希望他是可以好好一步一步務實的面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16238.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16255.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
今天如果說我們有做不夠好的我覺得那個都可以去理解我們也願意去接受可是不要想要企圖掩蓋然後把責任都推給其他的在野黨這樣子可能就不太好好不好我們一向都是在做理性的我們希望可以務實啦 謝謝謝謝馬國卿委員 謝謝部長接下來有請陳冠廷 趙偉上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16271.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16280.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
謝謝主席我們先請顧部長那如果稍後問到的問題跟其他部會有關可以自行上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16284.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16303.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
社長陳偉部長好其實部長今天經過我們國防部的說明以及各個委員們的討論我們大概可以做幾個歸類那首先我們先看一下我們這一次的1.25兆的這個預算那1.25兆預算大概可以分成主要可以分成兩大部分第一個就是對美軍購的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16304.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16324.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
除了我們之前第一波軍購已經通過之外第二波軍購加起來大概是9000億左右那商購與偽製的部分特別是包含無人載具還有中科院的一些偽製案彈藥產線的這些還有一些急缺的彈藥的商購這個部分大概是3000億左右所以兩個部分加起來大概是1.25兆左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16324.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16353.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
那剛才我們在稍早的全部的委員們在質詢的部分我們可以看到說包含賴斯堡委員他基本上他是對於九千億八千到九千億的對美軍購他是開始有鬆口來去支持那我必須要跟所有國人同胞講這一次的軍購的這些相關的特別條例他不是零和遊戲那每一次的踏前一步那我就離我們創造共識就接近一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16353.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16376.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
但是我還是要講在這一次的特別條例裡面民眾黨跟國民黨兩個在野黨的這一個方面有幾個核心問題那也藉由這個機會跟國人討論一下首先民眾黨的問題是在採購的項目他把金額把數量都寫實在條例當中那這個問題就很明顯的你多彈藥多一發不行少一發也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16377.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16393.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那其實這是在法律上面法律案上面這樣子去呃去騰寫其實是不太合理的那這個部分接下來的兩天我們希望說可以跟民眾黨溝通再把不可行的部分把它做一個修正那國民黨方面有幾個不可行的部分哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16394.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
16411.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
首先是他在施行期間他已經把他載名是117年12月31號為止那其實這個在不管是在現行的所有的產線上面這是不可能達到的也是不可能執行的所以這部分我也跟國人同胞報告這個東西是不太難 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
16412.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
16433.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
無法去執行的這個部分我們會跟國民黨來努力的來討論這是物理上面沒有辦法執行然後第二個部分就是如果沒有在那個時間完成的話甚至完成50%在他們條例裡面我看是第七條他們要送懲戒那這對公務人員是不公平也不符合邏輯的為什麼不符合邏輯因為在產制的部分不是他們負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
16434.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
16461.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那充其量我們是在專案的辦公室我們可以用全力來去跟美方溝通那稍早的這個質詢的過程中我們也知道在溝通的過程中一些之前的這個F16相關的戰機他們變成兩班制也就是說美方是完全接收到我們的顧慮而且全力來去協助那我們又看到一個問題就是說我們這一次的整個在軍購的部分國民黨似乎是同意的但是他們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
16462.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
16479.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
在前幾位在野黨的委員就一直在提到說那交付的過程交付的過程是這一個這個要不要先把它關起來先關起來交付的過程它是它交付的過程都會遲緩或者是延遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
16481.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
16510.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
我們是覺得是很無法理解的部分是說那所以他們說要沒有罰則那商購的話你是可以把它放入你的合約裡面有罰則的有賠償金的那你們又反對那所以說在邏輯上面是不對的嘛所以我這個部分還是要跟在野黨的委員們溝通就是說如果你們不要軍購那你們就要商購可是你們要商購的時候又說這個可能會有弊害那你既不要軍購又不要商購的話那我們國軍如何得到最新的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
16511.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
16535.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那現在我想要請教部長的是說如果依照在野島的說法他說 欸 啊 偽製跟商購那你就回到公務預算去編列那會有遇到什麼樣的困境假設按照他們這樣的說法 可不可以請部長簡單的來說明一下就整體的一個需求的問題嘛我們在報告裡面說明了就是說我們並不是把所有的事情都放到特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
16536.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
16561.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
我們現在持續性的一個案件的數量我們包括未來三年要的一個交易付款的高峰期跟我們現在擺在公務預算能夠新增的一些案項事實上是非常有限的所以現在說軍購案他們現在會同意只要完成智慧國會的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
16562.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
16573.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
那麼那是同樣邏輯反面推論就是說那他同意將軍購案放入特別預算那麼那同樣的道理我們如果這個偽製案跟我們的商購案也是符合我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
16574.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
16603.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
整體的作戰需求的那我們也希望在這一個年度預算的這個限制之外我們能夠編列相當的一個特別預算來強化我們的來不對稱戰力跟我們的防衛人性然後一次性的來這一個讓我們能夠做一個長期比較能夠資源集中這個規模穩定的這樣子的一個籌建可視戰力的一個機會其實是不分軍購商售 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
16603.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
16626.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
或者是偽製的重點是在於當我們這個條例通過之後我們一再講條例通過之後我們還要把預算案送進來那大家可以來檢視這一個預算案每一個的項目是不是符合我們現在有講的規劃的整體戰力的一個需求嗎那如果是符合的而沒有辦法在公務預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
16628.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
16657.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
年度的公務預算把它消化的話那麼我們就應該要能夠接受我們用特別預算的方式因為我們已經在報告裡面已經有提到了我們的這一個年度的預算在未來我們還有包括了不管是天建二型的飛彈天空三型的續購案陸射艦二的續購案雄厚雄大航艦飛彈的續購案這些續購案都是我們沒有要擺到特別預算我要擺到年度預算裡面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
16658.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
16681.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
所以整體的規劃我們用這個專報做一個完整的說明從這個整體的防空這個飛彈防禦到這個聯合反登陸到聯合國土作戰這個部分做一個完整的規劃那我們認為要擺入特別預算他有他的這個整體性的一個考量那沒有辦法再這樣子用 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
16683.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
16711.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
這樣幾十億幾十億的這樣的規模擺入這個年度公務預算裡面去慢慢的進行籌建那這個是我們現在面對敵情威脅的一個要提出特別預算的一個最基本的理由那接下來當然大家可以來討論哪些預算案是應該是可以擺入這個特別預算那不要先天的只認為說只有軍購案可以擺入那這個商購案不能擺入,委資案不能夠擺入 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
16713.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
16734.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
那這個邏輯我沒有辦法能夠理解啊那我們也有經過按百路公務預算的啊那這個到底應該是說我們要我們要有一個建構可是站立的一個整體的規劃那大家來檢視嘛沒錯我最後做個結語那其實剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
16736.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
16755.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
很多委員都已經提到這是一個法律的條例那預算之後我們可以一個一個的細細的審查可以刪可以剪可以動可是在這個條例當中他就已經有把上限把它規劃出來了這一切都已經經過在國保部審議不慣的在裡面去討論過那也跟很多委員都已經討論過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
16756.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
16779.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
一再的把這個條例當成是這個預算案在討論我覺得這對整體的議程進程會是有傷害的而且裡面最重要的是包含我們的偽製商購無痕載具在中東的戰場也好或者是在俄羅斯烏克蘭的戰場也好就已經被證明是有效且必要的載具那我們現在不但沒有把它列入那快速去應變時間是不會等人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
16780.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
16797.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
我們不可以依照說2027年所以我們現在就開始建軍就只是為了2027年因為我們不知道對方何時何地要發起對台灣的侵擾跟攻擊我們能夠做的就是確保上我們現在此時此刻能夠做最好的準備包含這些無人載具 三千多億不管是在國內的產線也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
16798.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
16818.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
他不是只是攻擊型包含擒尖針我們現在你又買了海馬仕但是如果沒有無人載具在旁邊獲取這個目標那得到這些擒之再轉交給AI輔助讓我們做好執行去打擊的話那我們要的這些東西只是單點單點一個武器的獲得沒有辦法獲得到打擊的能力或者是防禦的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
16819.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
16832.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
所以說三千多億無能載具跟其他軍購、偽製或者是商購全部都是整體的震懾力就是要震懾中國這也對台灣來講它才是最好的震懾力好,謝謝部長好,謝偉謝謝關廷超外,謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
16842.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
16850.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
接下來有請王世堅委員王世堅 王世堅委員王世堅委員不在 接下來有請郭國文委員上台質詢謝主席 有請主席處陳副主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
16878.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
16896.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
這次的特別預算的討論過程當中有兩項的爭議一個是有關於社福排擠或不排擠或者預算的編列方式的問題本席稍微了解一下按照我們今年度的公預算的支出總共是3,715億的情況以下舉債上千為4,607億扣除掉已舉債的2,992億的話剩下舉債的無度是1,615億 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
16904.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
16928.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那國民黨一直講說軍購會排擠到民生排擠到社福啦那我稍微算了一下我們最近所推出的這個八大津貼的這個部分的話如果算起來的話到7月1號開始調漲的話約莫大概要追加預算是215.4億即便回溯到1月1號的部分的話也不過是364.9億這種情況底下應該還在取債的範圍吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
16933.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
16934.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
不會有排擠的問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
16935.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
16961.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
是 首先跟委員報告就是說有關我們社會福利的部分都是在年度預算那我們今天這個軍購的部分是在特別條例所以它兩個是不同的體系那特別預算有自己個別另外財源的規劃所以它不會衝擊到社福的部分那有關社福就是說剛剛委員所提的如果是7月開始實證的話215億甚至或追溯全年 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
16964.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
16987.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
那基本上我們行政院在規劃這些社會福利的相關的這些措施的時候我們盤點以後都還是有能力控制在我們舉債的上限範圍內可能要注意一下就是說在野黨他基本上還有一些不負責任的加碼還有不願意審總預算的情況底下恐怕才是讓這些弱勢團體領不到一個關鍵的原因嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
16989.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17007.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
那回到剛剛在預算編列上面一個很重要的關鍵在藍與白的這個版本當中都把項目限制在這個發價數的一個項目的部分而將這個國內這個委資的部分還有商購的部分予以排除把它放在想要放在公務預算可是如果編載年度的公務預算的話它會牽扯到兩個問題一個是時間的問題一個是舉債的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17013.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17031.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
因為時間的問題的話很多公共預算要提早一年前編訂那就算用追加預算的部分也要有一定的流程所以很多軍購案其實簽了一項書之後都要等美國國會的這個通過在公佈前是本來就不能講的那過去其實在國民黨執政的時候的軍購也是一樣的這個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17032.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17053.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
所以說是不是如果透過這種編列 每年編列的方式在時間上會造成一種壓力 會造成美國一種疑慮也會認為沒有決心購買 會順位而會往後拉也會擔心到我們戰力會形成一個缺口這是一個可能性 時間上是不是一個問題第二個舉債的部分 如果它全部都擠在這一個所謂的這個公預算的話這個8年 這個8年的話 用8700億來分配的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17058.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17061.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
平均就要再舉債1000又會破剛剛我們舉債的15%上限這兩個會不會造成這樣的問題 副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17065.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17090.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
是跟我們說明就是的確就是說基本上我們這個透過這個我們以往就是說軍購的部分我們都是一次編列多年期的預算主要就是能夠整體的規劃就是說整個配套是所以一定要採取特別預算確保對尤其是跟美方這樣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17091.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17106.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
所以說用年度預算跟作家預算都沒有辦法用以此別列的方式所以必須採取特別預算一個關鍵的原因嘛對不對 副縣長是的 然後如果年度預算因為它就必須符合年度的舉債的上限那這個基本上在安排上就會有它的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17107.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17128.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
所以依照目前我們台灣的這個財政能力財政紀律也好不論是這一個我們的GDP可以達到一兆美元來說或者中央負債比只有24.3的情況底下我們在財政能力的話完全是沒有這個問題但是如果沒有一次編組的話可能就會形成一個戰略的缺口這個部分我就要請教一下那個部長有請一下顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17134.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17161.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
是我們今天的專報裡面就特別我們本來說這個專報的角度要怎麼寫所以我們在討論過程當中我們就是要從一個強化防衛作戰整體效能這個部分來做說明我講在書面上資料部長你們寫的非常清楚吧第二三頁的部分為什麼要這樣編列非常清楚我想這個部分之外我想要就教部長一個事情因為最近臉書有在公布說金融時報的部分在3月21號 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17163.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17177.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
有一個標題就是台灣憂慮美國對伊朗戰士飛彈的存量消耗會影響到未來台海衝突的嚇阻能力然後發言的人又是一個匿名的國防部的官員這個部分是不是代表國防部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17183.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17207.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
目前為止我們跟美方一直保持密切協調,我們採購的MSD...我只是在求證於說這個部分是不是屬於我們國防部官員對外表示是國防部擔心的地方啊也就是說文章裡頭寫到說空對地的這個飛彈跟戰斧飛彈的一個消耗美國在伊朗戰爭消耗的這個存量無法快速匿補上,會不會對台海造成風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17208.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17233.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
我想那個是他的一個評估他現在講的是空對地的巡弋飛彈也就是對地打擊飛彈的這個部分那事實上依我個人的理解美軍他在全球部署他不會把所有的東西都放在一個地方就給他用完他還是要針對戰區裡面會擬定他所需要的最基於因為美軍的存量到底多少其實是大家看不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17233.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17262.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那是不是有這種擔心因為有一個匿名的國防部官員這麼說我要求證於部長的原因是這個地方因為既然已經被臉書已經一直在傳播了是不是需要做一定程度的澄清這是第一個問題啦第二個問題這件事情也凸顯出來我們特別條例當中在美軍軍購的一個很重要的重點也就是偽製的部分跟商購的部分它其實包括這個天空飛彈也好或者是包括無人機也好攻擊型的無人機也好這基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17262.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17290.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
就是在對應這種事情的情況底下如果我們有自主生產的話那基本上就不用太過依賴美國他在國防的這個存量的問題是不是這樣的情況更凸顯說這商購的部分跟我們偽製的部分的關鍵性是不是應該從這個部分來切入來說明會比較妥適一點 部長就是國防自主優先對啊就是說從整體的韌性上來看我們能夠越不依賴外國 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17291.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17307.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
那當然我們的國防自主能力的提升絕對是對我們作戰任性跟作戰戰力的提升是有幫忙的但是有一些我們確實沒有辦法能夠產生出來我們才是軍購所以國防自主優先現在反而會被排去排到這個後面說 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17308.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
17326.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
國防自主不重要這件事情我也沒辦法理解所以我們我剛剛已經一再講特別是就無人載具的這個部分我們要掌握這個排除紅色供應鏈然後我們來扶植國內無人載具產業鏈發展來提升我們國防自主能力來降低資訊安全的威脅這是我們應該要首要做的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
17327.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
17346.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
是,對,部長,我意思是說,依照現在整個伊朗的情勢來說,我們自主國防反而更加的重要,應該是從這個部分來發言,對國民來說比較安心,對整個特別預算的通過會比較有幫助,所以以上我可以對您的建議,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝郭國文委員,接下來我們請鄭正前委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
17358.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
17360.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
謝謝主席 我想請一下顧部長是 政委部長好 我相信大部分的國人應該都很支持我們要增加台灣的安全 要提升國防我想這部分沒有問題可是我想說國防要強 監督也不能少因為我在想說我們花這麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
17383.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
17409.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
都是民脂民膏那我們其實要真正提升我們要買到的是台灣的一個戰力而不是可能產生新的風險或者是買到一些新的爭議或者甚至一些買到一些可能的一些弊案我想這都是我們所不希望的那為什麼我們會覺得說之前我會覺得說支持軍購的部分那嚴審商購的部分嚴審商購的部分其實就是因為之前有很多可能疑似弊案的部分都在軍購 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
17410.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
17432.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
的過程當中 包括比如說服賣就是就是裝修公司可以變成軍火商或者說很小的一個貿易公司他剛轉成做軍火交易的時候馬上就可以標到國防部的一個案子等等的一個情況我想這是我們會有點擔心的部分那因為今天其實我想說針對國防部今天所提出的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
17434.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
17454.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
分成了從整體的防空及飛彈防禦還有聯合反登陸的部分還有聯合國土防衛跟持續能量整備的部分四個部分來講我覺得某個部分講得算清楚可是有幾個部分我還是要特別提到因為它裡面有一個地方特別提到說我們115年度的軍事投資預算要1616億元可是今年要 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
17456.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
17480.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
就是持續性的案子就有1532億元所以可以新增的額度只有84億元於是呢就是因為年度預算放不下所以要變成特別預算這是你們在報告裡面特別提到的部分那針對這部分的時候我再想一個情況是特別預算它肯定不是因為就是年度預算放不下就用特別預算來做那我們直接來看一下我們常態預算特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
17481.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
17503.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
這分得很清楚法定當中的時候常態預算是例行性可預見的特別預算是具有急迫性跟例外性的突發需求對不對那這當中的時候監督的狀態會不一樣所以我們這次正在特別條例當中我們很特別關心的是我們要買什麼東西我們要怎麼買然後誰來負責責任歸屬要怎麼去做那目前我們看到的狀態特別預算當中的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
17504.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
17528.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
監督的機制事實上是相對低的那我知道很多委員特別提到如果說我們在很多委員都有提到說就是有關於所謂的空白授權的部分那我知道部長對這部分很介意你特別提到說我們條例的部分之後還有個特別預算這邊可以去把關可是事實上條例通過了之後我們在預算當中的時候坦白說它的監督的 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
17529.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
17531.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
強度就沒有那麼強所以這是為什麼我們從條例當中的時候我們就會非常的詳細的去看這個部分那國防部目前狀況的時候呢我們看到感覺很像是要用常態的預算來為特別預算這邊來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
17546.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
17572.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
常態預算不夠要用特別預算來補充那我們就會覺得他可能是透過特別預算的名義要來規避逐年審查那麼針對這個部分我想說我們針對短期急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制這個部分就是很清楚的有提到一個部分因為我們現在這個特別條例把整個短期的急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制全部都綁在一起那我個人認為這部分其實是有可能是可以分開來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
17574.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
17592.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
短期急迫的我們用特別預算沒有問題大家都支持可是中長期建制的部分的時候納入特別預算是不是適當我覺得這部分必須要好好去討論一下那在這當中的時候我發現報告當中很清楚提到了20餘萬架的一個無人機艇的部分還有14條的兵工廠這可能是軍備局這邊要用的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
17593.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
17611.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
我們對於這個部分是不是要用特別預算整個去把它包裹起來我覺得這部分其實可能是有待商榷的地方可不可以請部長這邊簡單做一個回應因為我們認為短期的急迫戰備需求跟中長期的建制事項應該要分開來處理您怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
17613.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
17639.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我想就我們為什麼要10條的兵工產線的這個部分,涉及到我們相關的這個資源的一個配置的部分,是不是請他們做一個?報告委員我們先解釋說明一下,就是14條產線的這個部分是因應敵情威脅陡峰,我們必須把我們的整個戰備存量從30天提高到120天,那未來除了這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
17640.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
17658.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
儲物量要提高之外未來因為我們訊號增加的關係也必須去有足夠的產線才能夠去做所以我們給這些產線它建置的時間不會是一個長期的因為這邊的時候跟彈藥有關的部分跟敵火有關那敵火目前就是印度跟中國這產量特別大 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
17659.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
17677.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
那這個部分主席再給我三分鐘我把最後一個問題提出來那請部長之後事後在本辦公室做一個說明因為你在報告第四頁當中特別提到了一個要有AI戰場管理系統這個部分要連結過去未來所有的防空針尖的系統那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
17678.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
17694.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
本席這邊他認為他這應該是個中心化的一個AI系統在第六頁當中這邊就提到一個要有一個去中心化的一個指管能力的一個AI輔助決策這兩個部分同時存在沒有問題可是本席對於這個部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
17695.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
17715.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
國防部的這個部分AI的體系當中的時候我們的通訊還有算力要怎麼去做處理然後另外我們這樣子的一個案子是要找美國來做還是要在國內去發包然後像針對這樣的一個部分它一個成長型的過程當中我們是不是用逐年去編列這樣的預算會比較妥適可以請部長做一個簡單的一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
17717.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
17737.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
如果時間有限的話 之後再到本辦公室來做一個說明對 我想第一個就是說增建產線的部分剛剛我們市長講的以外我們主要是考量到我們運用既有的生活基金它一年能夠用的四億多 這個是不足的所以我們才希望有一個快速來一次性有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
17737.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
17753.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
增建來擴增我們的戰備存量然後加強我們的韌性那有關AI的相關的這些部分呢我們現在在報告裡面所提到的我們相關的這些包括戰場的管理系統AI的輔助決策系統等等的他牽涉到範圍確實是蠻廣的那這個部分的建築 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
17758.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
17787.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
國防部要建立自己的大圓模型建立我們自己的一個算力中心來處理這樣子的一個問題嗎我們沒有我們沒有擺在這一次的特別預算裡面但是我想這個部分如果有必要的時候我們會納入我們的年度預算裡面做一個需求這樣OK好謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭振琴委員接下來我們請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在接下來我們請徐巧欣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
17794.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
17796.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
謝謝主席 我們有請顧立雄 顧部長我們請顧部長需要用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
17805.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
17831.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
部長好 這個禮拜我們開始審查國防軍購相關的條例當然包含行政院有院版的民眾黨跟國民黨都各有版本接下來禮拜三禮拜四的時候會進行審查也算是有一個進度我想我們都是支持能夠厚植國防實力只是說在這個幾個版本上面看得出來大家對於要怎麼樣去編列有不同的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
17832.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
17850.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
那國民黨呢跟民眾黨的版本相似度是比較高的就是說編列的這個邏輯比較相似那第一個對美國的部分呢是採購用特別條例那其他的部分也並不是不支持而是說如果有需要的話可以回歸到一般預算的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
17851.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
17872.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
那第二个呢是如果得到美国政府这个包含是国会授权的相关军售项目那立刻列入那如果有第二波的话那后续也都可以再追加第三点呢就是相关的一些期程规划那可能要要求清楚的说明那在立法院的监督责任这个部分呢是描述比较多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
17872.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
17891.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
所以說雖然它是看起來比較保守那當然因為這次軍購條例本來這個行政院版的這個金額是非常高高達1.25兆所以從監督的角度來講的話確實會比較保守但是像是一些未來就目前沒有在這個寫在民眾黨或國民黨版本裡面的並不代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
17891.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
17915.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
他不重要並不代表台灣不需要我們舉個例子C55SR這個東西其實對台灣而言是必要的那我們也同意只是說那我們的編列方式現在目前法條的寫法會變成等到可能這個第二波或者是美國有相關授權之後再寫進來那這方面我想國防部跟我們的國民黨民眾黨的看法不一樣這個我都能夠尊重但是呢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
17916.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
17932.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
因為都還是按照實際的需求台灣的需求進行審查所以最近最後他是勢必一定會趨近於這個需求的那我前面講這麼多呢也是想要了解一下就是這個部長這裡有沒有跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
17933.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
17956.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
行政院這邊溝通過就因為畢竟現在立法院的多數是民眾黨國民黨那也很有可能到時候通過的版本是比較趨近於我剛剛講的這個方向那如果是這樣子的話那請問一下我們會按照這樣通過的法律做執行嗎比方說我先問第一個就是會有考慮說提出復議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
17959.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
17979.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
我想我沒有辦法幫行政院在這個地方做回答是 那你們沒有你們沒有討論過是這樣子是吧我們國防部的立場當然還是希望我們通過我知道 那我的意思我當然知道你們我剛剛所以我前面講這麼久嘛你們沒在聽我前面的意思就是說你 我知道我們的這個對於編列的看法大家有不一樣的地方那不一樣在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
17980.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18001.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
但是我也告訴你一個政治上的現實是在在野黨這邊來說的話我們在立法院的人數比較多所以我想我必須要了解一下今天如果是按國民黨民眾黨這種方向的類似這樣的方向可能台灣的話會再有一些變動這樣方向的編列方式去進行的話會不會不附屬啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18002.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18025.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
或者是會不會提出復議 或者會不會送釋憲因為這個在我們審查的時候其實也有可能是一個蠻重要的一個就是大家必須要有討論的因為如果今天我們現在是有急扣訊的需求但是通過了這樣的版本 最後它不附屬的話那對整體的我們的國防實力會造成一個很大的影響那如果說其實按照這樣的方向去 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18026.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
18050.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
編列寫了這個條例之後通過了也一樣能夠有後續的預算編列讓他能夠上路一部分的話那這也不失為一種辦法所以我很想知道就算部長您今天不一定能夠回答我但是這個問題我覺得是蠻重要就是如果按照目前在野的編列方向這個角度來看的話會不會有不附屬的可能性啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
18050.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
18067.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
我跟委包括我實在沒有辦法因為這是院長的權責我沒有辦法幫院長在這個時候回答您剛剛所提問的問題是 我可以了解但是你們會再去跟他做討論嗎還是說你會等到通過之後才去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
18069.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
18078.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
跟委員報告我們現在條例一件事預算是一件事那條例我們當然是希望按照我們國務院的條例才有所謂的複議啊不附屬啊 釋憲的問題嘛預算就不是這樣啊這個條例的部分我要問的是這一點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
18084.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
18099.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
這是一個你不要覺得我提前問你了因為這很關鍵就是說如果按照這樣的編列方式那會不會有不附屬的結果的話那當然這個壓力上面來說大家也都要再一次的去討論說那該怎麼做比較好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
18100.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
18119.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
這個到後續政黨協商的時候或許也是有一個空間存在所以說我才會問這個問題那我知道您剛剛的回答就是說這個是行政院的決定所以你現在不知道但我會建議我會建議這其實是我的一個建議說可能要提早跟行政院這邊來做一個商議然後呢有機會的話能夠讓我們先知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
18122.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
18144.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
因為大家都是站在一個能夠讓國防實力後直的這個角度然後呢讓這個法三讀通過之後能夠有效的然後立刻對我們的國防實力產生幫助的這個前提之下所以我才覺得這個問題是重要的那現在你沒有辦法回答我沒關係齁那這個但是它是重要的你們如果想要解決這個問題的話還是要務實的來面對喔那好那這個先這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
18149.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
18177.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那另外要問一個比較簡單的就是說呢這個我先前也問過有關於軍售的部分那個川普他因為有習近平的這個會談所以他講到說呢這個川習會那會討論台灣軍售先前我就提過了這個是違反了我們的六項保證裡面的第二項保證沒有經過同意就把對台軍售的議題向中華人民共和國徵詢意見那在這一點上面國防部有什麼要表達的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
18179.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
18184.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
我想我們跟美方之間對於軍售從一開始的一個聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
18187.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
18211.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
也就包括他們願意有初步的供售意願到後來有表示願意供售我們才拒以編列那我想這個就我們了解美方迄今的態度沒有改變那我們也持續跟美方會進行溝通不是啊 可是川普確實他提到了他要跟這個習近平去談台灣的軍售談完才會做決定那這個有沒有違反六項保證的第二項保證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
18212.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
18239.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
我想六項保證裡面有一個重點就是說對於我們依據台灣關係法來進行對我們的防衛性武器的提供不會不會不會來說要不要取得這個中華人民共和國的同意我想在這一點上面我不認為美方的態度有任何的改變你覺得川普這樣講也不算是態度上有改變你覺得川普這樣講是在六項保證上面是符合能夠符合第二項的是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
18240.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
18260.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
沒有違反第二項這個川普的說法沒有違反第二項保證他跟中方那邊這邊的討論我現在沒有辦法進一步評論我只能夠說依循這個六項保證不會就我們的軍售的部分才取得中華人民共和國的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
18260.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
18281.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
可是這是他公開講的嘛這個所有新聞然後在他的這個真實社群上面都有啊他上面寫的內容就是他強調說他正在跟習近平討論未來對台軍售的事情他沒有提到說這個要取得中華人民共和國的同意習近平不算是中華人民共和國就是沒有他並沒有說他要取得中華人民共和國的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
18281.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
18295.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
討論OK 你的意思是這樣討論台灣的軍售OK不用取得對方同意就沒有違反六項保證我沒有辦法很清楚的說川普跟習近平的通話的內容我這是川普講的嘛說明的是根據六項保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
18298.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
18325.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
的內容來看美方不變的政策時間到了但是我對您的回覆是非常失望的因為當川普他講到說他要跟習近平討論對台灣軍售的事情我認為中華民國的立場在這件事情上就是要強硬的態度那不能因為他今天是美方然後我們就覺得說算了沒關係或者說不能去評論什麼的我覺得不是這樣子我們就應該要要求美方按照六項保證裡面的每一項而不是被他一一突破 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
18329.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
18347.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
好謝謝許草星委員接下來我們請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在已登進執詢委員逐步在場外均已發言門閉報告及詢答結束本日會議由林大華委員 代會員委員 王洪威委員 陳一尊委員提出書面質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
18349.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
18367.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
請列入紀錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭諮詢未答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內以書面答覆委員有約期限者從期鎖定23、25及26這三天是三天為一次會那現在休息 |