| IVOD_ID |
17287 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17287 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-19T08:38:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-19T12:08:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:30:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc8ecfe646390efd909b56c0bdfc12529c157d0edf07c12ea6e620b28f3c5beadb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。
【3月18日及19日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:38:51 - 12:08:59 |
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各位委員還有今天考試院的部會長官們大家好那麼我們就現在繼續開會那首先先介紹到場的委員我們現場的有陳昭之委員然後今天出席的官員有考試院的秘書長劉金星劉秘書長還有考選部的劉孟琦劉部長群術部的施能傑施部長以及保訓會的蔡秀娟蔡主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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那麼其餘的列席的官員呢本席就在這裡不一一的介紹會列入公報記錄那本日的議程主要是邀請考試院的秘書長、考選部部長、權序部部長以及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會的主任委員列席報告那就業務概況及立法計畫並被質詢好那我們首先就先 |
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進行報告那麼今天的口頭報告的機關代表有四位那發言的時間就請每位代表盡量控制在三分鐘以內好那接下來我們就有請考試院劉秘書長報告 |
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趙偉 陳委員 各位在場的女士先生 各位先進大家早安很榮幸列席貴委會來報告考試院的業務的概況跟立法計畫藉這個機會也感謝委員在過去對本院的各項施政跟法案的支持跟指教完整的業務概況跟立法計畫請各位參閱我們的書面報告在這邊我就簡要說明當中的重點 |
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那我這個重點就聚焦在大家最關心近期很多討論的公務人力的議題上面公務人力的養成應該是從教考、訓用到留才是一個很長期的過程那這當中有一部分是考試院的無可迴避的權責那當然也有我們行政體系的決策還有我們用人機關必須來共同努力的地方那就本院的權責部分 |
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因為參加要來當公務員必須參加公務員考試那相較於到民間去應徵呢那考生必須付出因為要備考應試必須付出相對比較高的成本那就這個部分並不利於我們跟私部門來競爭人才所以考試院近年來很積極地推動高普考減科的工作就是把專業科目呢高考從六科變成四科那普考從四科減為三科來降低我們考生的負擔 |
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1479.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
也讓這個硬式的科目更能夠聚焦在我們的實際工作的核心職能就這個部分分階段推動在今年會全面上路在這個之後我們地方特考等等這些相同類型的考試也會來比照辦理希望能對考生來講來進入公部門的門檻會比較友善一些另外針對大家都很關心的這個部分的招募人才不易的類科例如說我們公部門的土木工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1480.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1505.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
還有我們原民特考的部分科目還有我們民間某些專技人力需求上升的某一些尤其是醫事人員裡面像護理師等等就這個部分我們都很重視我們也跟行政院展開院際的合作我們相關的部會跨院都有組成工作圈一方面我們來重新檢視改革考試的內容一方面也強化了我們教育端跟校園宣導的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1506.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1521.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那此外為了要符合新世代的這個工具使用習慣我們逐步擴大電腦化測驗的運用這個也是我們這幾年一直在努力的重點那除了考選的部分以外那我們為了強化公職的吸引力我想職等跟待遇當然是很大的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1522.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1547.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那針對大家的反應就是說基層機關質等太低不利於流財的這些問題去年本院就完成了這個地方政府植物劣等的調整案那這個有590個機關3500個植物受惠那基層的一些很多質等都能夠調升質等調升當然也提高了待遇我們希望這個能夠讓我們尤其地方政府的流財的誘因能夠增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1547.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1562.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那除了職等待遇之外友善職場也是我們很努力的方向我們去年修正了保障法安慰辦法還有這個即時獎勵還有取消指名商調的機關同意權那也增訂了身經調適價跟放寬預升價的這些條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1565.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1590.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那今年這個工作會進入一個深水區就是我們會來做針對烤雞制度做一個全盤的修訂那各界的意見我們都有聽到那周院長也指示我們在周院長指示之下我們這幾個月院裡面做了很多次的討論那現在全訓部的草案正在跟各機關做進行意見交換如果能夠順利的有共識的話我們希望在這個會期就把 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1591.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1602.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個法案能夠送到立法院來讓委員能夠審議真的能讓我們的未來的制度能夠做到蔣優泰烈肯定辛勞稱職同仁的功能以上報告進行指調 謝謝好 謝謝劉秘書長的報告那接下來我們就請考選部劉部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1614.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1634.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好城門大院委員隊考選業務隊支持與協助 使各項考選業務得以順利推展今日緊究本部1.14年業務執行情形及1.15年工作重點進行報告1.14年本部辦理20項次國家考試 其中18項次已辦理完均總計公務人員考試入局約18000人 專機人員考試榜試及格約34000人 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1640.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1651.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
在研修考選法制部分本部因應憲法法庭判決修正警察特考等七項考試規則提改警察規定研修高考三級及普通考試規則再進行調整英式專業科目 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1652.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1680.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
研修高考一級等三項考試規則方寬英語檢定成績採樣年限制應考資格等另外本部成立測驗研究中心研議國家考試測驗評量研究發展及測驗技術提升事項並持續推動國家考試數位轉型措施14年預計新增聽力14年以新增聽力試劑語言治療考試施行電腦化測驗國家考試宣導部分本部邀請用人機關共同參與宣導國家考試推動大學國考課程地圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1681.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1706.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以廉潔課程規劃來公職考試科目同時開發國考懶人包以利涉及大眾快速了解相關資訊在115年工作重點部分預定舉辦20項次考試截至115年3月已舉辦3項次考試完略本部將持續配合用人機關需要依考試期程穩健辦理事務工作並適時檢討公務人員考試相關類科應試科目及命題大綱 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1707.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1732.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
此外本部也持續精進測驗技術與試題品質包含執行護理師國家考試試題物精進計畫辦理調整公務人員升官等考試普通科目研究等委託研究案及辦理五類醫師人員對外整體委託等另外115年電腦化測驗將新增驗光人員司法官及律師考試第二次護理師第三次考試採行電腦化測驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1734.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1747.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
以繼續推展國考數位轉型、強化電腦化車驗、應試緊急應變處理機制又會鼓勵青年報考公職考試將於教育部青年發展署、雙北市政府青年局 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1749.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1773.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
原住民委員會及教育部研制中心合作宣導國家考試同時也與教育部原住民委員會合作共同培育原住民族公共事務人才最後本部將持續辦理國家考試圍場及數位多功能考場大樓興建工程及優化國家考場環境設施以上報告敬請各位委員繼續給本部支持與指教各項施政重點的詳細內容請參閱書面報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1777.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1780.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 謝謝劉部長那接下來我們請學術部施部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1787.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1814.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
主席 各位很早安本部呢 謝謝這個委員會給我們這個機會其實舊部裡面最近去年到最近所做的一些事情做一個簡單的報告那部裡面當然例行性的工作還是繼續就很多公務人員的任用考期 奉期跟退休撫恤這邊做全息審定的案件那我們繼續持續在辦理這些業務中那去年呢 跟今年呢我們也很多機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1815.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1841.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不斷有一些意見的一個反應所以特別比如說我們在醫事人員這一塊呢也做了一些配合的辦理包括說我們讓衛生行政機關能夠有更多的醫事人員可以來機會來參與這個公共服務的一個機會那我們也準備在修正像醫院的這個各師級比例的一個配置這也是搭配我們公務人員這個值等的一個配置的改變來做這件事情那我想去年這個我們根據這個我們把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1844.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1860.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
育嬰的這個那個那個祖父母呢這個部分也都做了我們在已經完成了這個修正我們的那個育嬰留年辦法相關的一個規定那去年修正通過的這個退服法的相關的規定我們也按照我們說的期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1861.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1875.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
在六個月裡面按照我們規劃的期程目前都是很順順利在進行預計也應該會按照我們的一個期程能夠在六個月裡面把這些應該審定的這個審定還能夠完成我想這些比較例行也是重要的事情我先做報告那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1876.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1900.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們未來特別在今年我們應該有兩個主要一個重點剛剛院裡面秘書長也報告我想第一個重點我們確實會提出這個考機法的一個修正案的一個進行中那這個案子其實我們從去年上半年就開始做很多內部的討論還有跟機關的一個討論那大概今年開始進入到更正式的一個討論目前部裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1900.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1928.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
已經完成了大概整個大的一個方向還有相關的條文的一個修正案那大概預計呢下禮拜呢我們如果順利的話就會開始正式對機關還有會請機關徵詢他們機關的公務人員事實上我們也會用線上的方式呢徵詢所有公務人員內網的一個線上徵詢公務人員的意見那如果大家覺得可以順利的話那我們就會報到院裡面詢詢徵程序呢再報到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1930.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1956.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
來這個審議這是我們部裡面大概今年呢應該是蠻重要一件事情那當然我們也會就任用法的部分呢也做一些必要的一個修正因為任用法裡面有一些呢譬如像我們植物力等調整完以後健身檢的一個可能植物呢這中間的一些資格條件可不可以要再做一些相對應的調整包括有一些訓練的必要性我們都會做充分各式各樣的一個討論那這是部裡面也回應這讓公務人員在 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1957.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1976.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
機關裡面有更友善的一個工作職場然後也重視到機關的用人需求做一些balance的挑戰最後我們的基金大概我們的投資效益也剛好這個外在環境很好所以一切都是非常順利比去年的績效也不遜色甚至還要更好我想以上做這樣一個報告 謝謝好 謝謝市部長的報告那接下來我們請保訓會的蔡主委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1990.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2012.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早今天非常榮幸的奉邀練習貴委員會承蒙大院對本會的一個支持那以下僅就有兩個部分跟這個主席跟各位女士先生報告第一個就是114年到截至目前為止保訓會暨所屬的國家文官學院做了幾項重要的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2013.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2023.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
創新那除了一個例行性的業務以外呢我們在這些創新以下分就幾個部分跟各位報告第一個在保障法的修正呢去年承蒙這個大院 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2023.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2048.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
的支持所以我們順利的通過並在今年1月9號開始正式實施然後安慰辦法從去年7月1號開始就開始實施這是有關健全友善職場相關法制的落實部分那為了因應這些保障法跟安慰辦法的修正所以本會積極的在這個相關的執法配套措施目前已經完成22項那相關的圖卡及相關的指引目前仍持續在上架當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2049.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2062.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
再來就是有關於依法審理公務人員保障事件維護公務人員權利的救濟部分保障案件其實是逐年增加的那114年本會總共辦結了1885件較113年的辦結率增加了4成同時為了協助各機關在進行考積跟懲處案件的答辯的時候能更加的符合這個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2077.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2092.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們也協助各機關來制定了這個機關答辯的檢核表加速整個案件的審理然後強化多元的案例分析同時也針對一些行政法案撤銷比較多的一些案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2092.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2121.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後呢特定所屬機關直接以首長兼函去跟這個相關的機關進行一個溝通那也獲得很順利的一個他們的同意來進行一些制度上的改革在這個法定訓練跟發展性培訓的業務部分呢去年的這一個高普考跟各項特考基礎訓練呢我們總共訓練了6166人叫113年增加了8.5%然後呢精神關等的部分呢在警左升警正的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2122.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2136.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
跟這個的部分呢 收訊人數較113年有增加那總共去年呢 有新編了80科的一個這個相關 包含了人工智慧課程然後呢 文化政策創新 然後媒體試讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2138.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2154.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
等等還有特別是職場溝通與這個職場霸凌的相關的課程好那在115年的部分呢我們最主要的一個重點會放在除了繼續落實保障法安慰辦法還有這個救濟案件的一個機制的一個審理以外更重要的是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2155.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2172.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
今年115年是地方公職人員選舉所以在本會的法定業務行政中立的宣導方面我們會更全面的來擴大而且會善用各式各樣更多的媒體以讓觸及率能夠盡可能的普及到所有公務人員跟相關人員那以上報告敬請指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2177.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2201.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝蔡主委的報告那麼我們機關代表都已經報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並且會列入公報記錄那麼現在我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員尋答時間是8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員尋答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記首先我們先請登記第一位的陳昭之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2206.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2208.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝主席 有請劉秘書長請劉秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2216.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2237.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我今天還是想跟您討論公務員的考機問題剛剛秘書長您也提到了在報告中提到然後程序部的施部長也有提到考機的部分現在你們在積極在研擬一些修法我想先請教秘書長秘書長你目前的工作你有負責打考試院同仁的考機嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2240.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2256.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
考試院首長是院長但是考記的部分我自己有你有在打考記我想請教你你認為打考記是個容易的工作還是不容易的工作對主管來說它也是相當困擾的工作為什麼是困擾呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2257.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2272.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想最主要烤雞的等地必須讓同仁信服那我們陳時中現在制度面上面烤雞現在加一等的比例分佈這個設計它有一個歷史的演變啦但是這個演變其實在衡量上面並不是很合理有它爭議之處啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2274.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2298.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
秘書長我想請教你請問一等到底是好還是不好一等應該基本上是說他也是被肯定所以他才會有獎金只是說我們這個甲跟乙的區別讓大家一等的同仁會覺得好像沒有被肯定最主要是因為甲等比一等多那麼多所以一等的同仁當然會覺得好像沒有被肯定不過基本上他都是稱職合於預期的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2299.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2307.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
秘書長你當然這樣談說一等您覺得是肯定啦所以才有獎金啊但是我們都說是很像鴨子嘛一等就是好像我得了鴨子的這個烤雞啦所以您認為一等是正面的就是在你們定義上是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2316.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2338.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
定義上是 但是他這個制度大家覺得比較不合理就是說假等 四分之三的人是假等 四分之一的人是疑等這個劃分 我們覺得需要檢討所以才會要去推動考據法的修正秘書長您說基本上疑等就算是正面了但是最近有一則新聞台中地檢署在上個月被爆出 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2339.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2357.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他將判決確定的這個詐欺犯 忘記執行長達五年 忘記執行 這個重大疏失吧 這是重大疏失那監察院被監察院糾正 結果地檢署他對承辦人員祭出的懲處竟然是烤雞打魚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2358.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2377.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這麼重大的疏失他是烤雞打疑等那這件事讓基層公務員在網路上炸鍋啦一片罵聲啦那這件事的反應跟剛剛秘書長您談的說疑等基本上是正面的但是這麼重大的疏失他也是被打疑等喔這那麼大的這個新聞秘書長您認為這基層公務員你知道他們為什麼那麼生氣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2384.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2397.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
你說就這個案子還是對啊 全部炸光啊因為這個新聞下面全部都是基層公務員一片罵聲啊他犯了這麼大的錯但是他考積已等嘛跟很多人一樣嘛其實就考積法來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2403.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2420.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
針對表現有重大疏失的同仁其實也有別的處理方式能夠真正的產生警惕所以我想我可以理解大家對這個案子絕對會覺得非常的爭議那這個主管其實運用考機法民主黨那這個是你們職權所及嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2422.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2438.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
呃 這個不是我們職權好 但是我就是讓大家了解齁你選我們來看一些數字好嗎齁請你看這個統計資料這是全序部最新的公開資料喔齁那我們都知道一般的行政公務員他分成委任 建任 檢任三個官等齁那我們先看甲等的部分甲等的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2440.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2445.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
比例你看從這個不同的關等你看減刃是96%減刃是81%委刃是71%我們再來看移等我們也是從減刃他只有3.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2455.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2461.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
兼任是18%委任是將近三成 28.8%那這個統計清楚呈現了我們純粹從這個統計來看官等越高 考積越好秘書長認為這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2471.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2494.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
會有這個原因喔我先整體講一下就是說這些抱怨 您剛剛講了 異等同仁覺得不公平還有大家認為烤雞官等之間的分佈不一致這些問題 意見我們都聽到那我們想要去全盤修正烤雞法其實也就是因為大家有這麼多的反應跟不平那至於以前為什麼會有這個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2498.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2518.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我想首長在打烤雞的時候大概也會考慮到每一個人的職責的沉重程度跟他的貢獻所以他就會出現像您講的這個結果但是當然烤雞還是要針對同人就同官等之間的比較這個也很重要不能忽視烤雞法第九條您清楚嘛第九是什麼您知道嗎就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2520.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2531.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
還有明定 因為你談到同官等的考積是比較範圍但實際上有沒有落實李子密說你大概看到這些數字你心裡就有數那對基層公務員來說這個形同虛設啦第九條形同虛設現實上就是距離機關所長越靠近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2538.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2558.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個比較近的檢任官 相對最容易拿到假等基層的 相對比較距離比較遠的 檢任跟委任 那個疑等比率就大幅提升那我想先進的菜鳥 基本上就是疑等所以過去這個做法 相信對員工的 是否是真正公平的評價這個很難讓人家取信吧 畢竟說你同意嘛 你根本覺得有不合理之處吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2562.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2579.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
你同意嗎?因為這個我們看到的結果,我們就這個結果來評論那現在就是除了甲乙等之外,我們來看一下那個濱鼎等我們知道他是用來檢討跟汰除不適任的公務員但是也是等於沒作用,無論哪個官等其實他都小於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2580.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2603.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
百分之一啦所以說或是小於0.1所以說公務員是鐵飯碗但是偶爾就會有生鏽的鐵飯碗嘛那有時候還是因為每個機關都有事還有事一旦生鏽當然就不能夠不易使用嘛那每年不適任的公務員真的不到百分之一嗎我們在講講成我們當中就是做一個平衡的來討論民事長你認為目前的烤雞制度真的能夠達到這個獎優太烈的一個目的嗎目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2610.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2634.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
真的有需要汰除的呢其實工具也是有的只是說機關文化上敢不敢下手那但是另外一方面我們也不會去否定說認為說公務員裡面一定有幾%是應該每年要汰除的因為過去曾經有這樣的討論那也引起大家很大的抱怨所以就這個部分我想應該是依照實際的狀況如果真的有表現不佳應該要處理的要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2634.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2648.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
秘書長這幾天有一篇新聞麻煩你看一下存緒部有提到要啟動修法那就是公務員這個考積甲等比率你取消上限我先請問秘書長現行的考積法有規定那個甲等比率上限嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2649.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2659.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
現在的法律沒有規定沒有嘛沒有嘛那事實上沒有規定這個上限喔那你所謂的假等不能夠超過75%只是一個潛規則啊潛規則用這麼久那既然這個75不是不是一直都75不是法律嘛它最早大概是應該是三分之一後來變成二分之一後來變成沒有上限後來又變回50為原則75為上限但是法律沒有這一條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2674.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2690.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那沒有既然是潛規則你又怎麼透過修法來改呢因為這個標題寫說公務員這個全序部說公務員考積加成比率的這個取消上限我們會設計簡單講我們看各國的考積制度其實應該是蔣優泰烈中間大多數都是認真 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2692.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2712.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
符合預期的同仁他應該得到相對的肯定但是我們現在那條線不應該是切在百分之七十五這個地方那這個長期演變下來的部分讓大家很困擾所以這一次修法等一下我要稍微了解你這次修法的方向那這一次我們會去把那個等地做一個新的設計我想請教一下考積法多久沒有修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2713.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2717.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這樣停滯多久幾十年請問是多久我們去年才修過一小條但是這個製度的部分有多久沒有修了很久了部長多久20年對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2728.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2744.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
如果整個制度來講就76年建立的但是後來有修正個別的條文我們講一個法律有一個大的架構它裡面有一些細節細節都不斷在修但是如果是大的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2745.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2763.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
基本上就是維持76年40年沒有修啦一定沒有辦法我都稱為不只這個領域年久失修啦這個都非常重要包括將來我們司法這個組也會看到的人工生殖法二三十年沒有修所以我想請教這個目前謝謝請回那修法是現在已經完成送立法院或是說你們的進度剛剛是說在進行中嘛那我很重要的一個議題就是說問題就是說有讓基層參與嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2773.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2794.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
你有讓基層公務員參與嗎剛剛部長在報告的時候他在線上等等這個只是邀請是被動式的參與但是法案公告大家就可以表示意見第二個他會我們會有一個問卷線上的那個問卷有嗎有收到基層公務員的意見表達嗎有嗎現在還沒有正要開始進行那我覺得你們應該主動找這個基層公務員團體來開會討論修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2801.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2815.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就說基層公務員的團體參與要很實質的加入總不能永遠是上層的反正得到考機都是假等的人在討論怎麼來修法您同意嗎?您接受這個建議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2816.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2829.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我想這個全局部一定會廣泛徵詢大家的意見我要提醒這個考機法不能閉門照居來修法如果沒有廣大基層的意見未來還是行不通或形同虛設我剛剛已經告訴你為什麼形同虛設最後秘書長我想跟您討論這個警消組工會過去有很多警消兄弟因公殉職他們面對的不是只有危險的工作環境還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2838.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2854.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
其實不太合理的一個這個勤務制度跟績效制度所以希望能夠組工會來保障自己的權益但是這個部分考試院是反對的只願意修這個協會法那我想請問秘書長為什麼你們會反對這個警消組工會我想知道原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2857.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2871.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
警校主任會這個議題有各種意見那考試院因為是協會法的主管機關不是公會法的主管機關那已經有協會法了那你擔心什麼 考試院擔心什麼呢我們當然從我們的角度因為我們主管協會法我們當然會從檢討協會法來著手所以這就是我們為什麼兩度送出協會法 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2876.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2892.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
秘書長如果你們擔心罷工的問題那你就比照那個教師組工會就好啦你們可以有配套措施在勞資正義處理法當中就明定禁止罷工不就可以了嗎你知道所有醫療院所都有工會耶醫療院所都有了你們怕什麼 擔心什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2893.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2899.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個議題應該是說我覺得社會要有共識啦所以就它是一個我們只要謹慎面對的議題我覺得官員在談談社會共識請問天下什麼事有社會共識呢對不對這個請教這個共識到什麼程度呢基層請交不買單你們的協會法但是畢竟你們這是你們法案那我再請教2024年9月你們已經把這個法案送到這個立法院來請問你有去推動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2918.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2934.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
你們這一年來你們有拜託召委排案嗎你有去做這個動作嗎還是說交代交差了事我記得我去年在這邊做業務報告的時候我們就有講我們現在在立法院的法案就是協會法所以也請既然送交了就應該去推動嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2935.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2963.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
之前胃環委員會有排審過那個工會法開放警消組工會喔因為我就在那個但是那個主席才是因為當時民進黨立委意見很多主席才是什麼 召委才是說等考試院的協會法出來我們再一起說再一起討論可是你們現在似乎也沒有積極推動那你乾脆就支持工會法去年胃環委員會要求我們兩個月內提法案所以我們就在兩個月之內把法案送到立法院來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2963.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2981.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那我去年在法治委員會也有報告說不是只有送案啦如果你們覺得重要應該積極處理啦這個法案的排審我們就尊重委員會秘書長我的重點就是一個請你們要邀請這個而且要就是讓他們實質能夠基層公務員團體能夠實質參與討論啦這個攸關他們自己的考核現在的協會法現在的草案真的擴大很多的那個權限好謝謝秘書長謝謝委員主席謝謝陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3002.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3007.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
接下來我們邀請歐小林委員來詢答謝謝謝謝主席那麼先有請劉明書長還有施部長施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3021.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3046.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
委員長阿民署長還有市部長好那麼我剛剛因為已經聽了市部長在你的業務報告裡面有特別提到就是有關於公教退休金停函法案的現在的實施的一個狀況那麼剛剛市部長已經有說這應該是蠻肯定六月底之前可以就是完成新的退休金的審定函吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3047.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3064.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
當初委員在質詢的時候我就講過這個事情我們要根據我們的進度所以現在進度到哪裡可以大概很簡單的說一下嗎簡單的說就是說因為我們現在進度到各機關都已經確認說哪些人必須要重申這個是很重要不要漏失掉然後我們系統也幾乎快開發完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3065.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3084.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以下個月開始就一旦Ready系統開我們就開始真的進入到實質的那個審定那實質審定大概用個一兩個月的時間我們預計在六月的時候就會開始呢等於是最後還要發給機關去做就確認大概是這樣一個進行方式是 如果是可以的話我當然是希望就是這個相關的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3085.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3104.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
越快越提早完成是越好因為你們情緒部這邊完成之後還要發給各機關各機關作業也可能也還需要兩個禮拜或一個月的時間那麼真正我講對於所有的這個退休的公教人員的期待就是能夠看到7月1號之後他的退休金不再停侃那麼這個部分的話是希望部長這邊還有秘書長這可以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3113.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3120.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
加速還是盡可能的能夠兌現你們的承諾因為我想這個部分其實對於基層的對於一些退休的公教人員來講他們這個一直看到法案通過了但是退休金還是持續扣其實心裡面絕對肯定是不舒服的不愉快的不希望說之後六月之後可能又還會發生其他的一個變化就麻煩施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3137.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3150.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好那接下來呢我還是在想說談一個議題剛剛其實陳昭志委員這裡有提到有關於就是最近大家很關心的有打烤雞的問題就是公務人員的烤雞的甲等乙等的問題那麼事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3153.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3171.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我也知道就是這個烤雞制度這麼多年來從民國76年到現在已經差不多快40年了從來也沒有改變過但本席在這裡是有個建議因為你說現在烤雞制度用夾 移 丙 丁的這樣的一個等地方式坦白說已經跟現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3173.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3186.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個很多的評鑑的制度啊還有就是連考試打成績啊等等都不會再用甲乙丙丁的這樣的等地制度所以有沒有可能可以去想想看用這其他的這個等地制度來來代替譬如說特優啊優啊就是良好等等的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3193.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3217.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
來彰顯他確實公務人員他在考機上面他可能因為他的表現的不同然後會有不同的評價否則大家確實是會覺得說所有都是76%的人公務員都是假等都是一樣好嗎事實上也不見得是一樣好對不對因為有些是表現的特別好但是呢卻因為這個等地制沒有辦法去凸顯出這公務員他其實真的表現非常優良 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3218.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3240.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
還有另外一個就是為什麼這個基層公務人員很在意考積 甲等 乙等這當然跟獎金有關嘛這個說來說去其實也都是跟所有的公務人員的福利待遇有關那你現在你的這個甲等的考積獎金一個月乙等的是0.5個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3241.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3265.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
如果你未來就是可以把他這個等地做得更細緻好譬如說多增加幾個等地然後也提高考機獎金我想這個是大家皆大歡喜而且也不會有人會抱怨說那拿特優的就應該拿一個月或是1.5個月那其他的這個普通表現優良的可能就是0.5個月那中間可能有優良的或者是你們可以有一些不同的一個等地標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3266.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3291.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那這樣的話我認為說其實會讓工作人員比較心服口服而不是認為說我今天被打一等那個以的在中國人的概念真的是代表說其實不是那麼好但其實他是有拿到考級獎金的所以這次本席就是給市部長還有秘書長這邊建議可以通盤的去思考我們現在在大學裡面教書都知道學生的成績已經也不是在用100分 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3292.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3311.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
百分比來計算用什麼AA加A減然後ABCD嘛就有不同的這個等級所以我想師傅長您也在大學教書您可能知道就說我們這個整個評分的制度其實有在改變也很希望說是不是接下來在討論考G的這個等地制的時候呢也可以有一些新的思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3312.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3331.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我跟委員報告剛剛陳委員在質詢的時候我們也意識到這已經40年沒有改變了所以部裡面跟院裡面有充分的溝通那其實這是我們從去年周院長在被提名統一權審查的時候他就把這個當成是他兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3332.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3357.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
工作的一個重點那去年應該先處理的是保障法上半年所以下半年我們就積極在討論那整個大的方向是用不同的思考方式如果你問我的話我們是有點重訂考積法的概念不是叫修正考積法所以那個架構應該會跟以前會有很大的不一樣我可以公開這樣我不會再用甲乙丙丁這種概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3358.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3382.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
但實際上的狀況一定會要跟各個機關因為最後我們法律怎麼設計執行了還是在機關機關要怎麼執行的順暢務實可行我覺得這個才是一個重點然後接下來公務同仁的一些想法過去的想法當然我自己在政府部門這麼久我當然有聽到我想這個事情很自然會在這一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3383.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3402.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有點像是比較是重新架構裡面一定會去考慮這些事情那以行政機關的方式大概這樣運作的方式跟委員先做這個報告好 謝謝部長重要的還是要聽這個基層公務員的心聲如果說能夠多辦幾場座談會的話我想會對於就是修正考機制度會很有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3402.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3420.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
就這點是不是容許我講個幾十秒現在一個方式要聽意見非常多所以我們設計的方式因為所有公務員都有內部網站都有我們叫ECPA的概念我們會透過這個方式就不斷在上面我們會有設計問卷直接push到每一個公務人員就我們的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3422.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3437.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這個表示我想他的觸及力會遠比其他方式來得快好的OK那接下來我還有另外一個議題喔因為在你們今天的報告裡面其實有談到就是接下來會通案性的調高地方機關還有中央政府機關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3439.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3458.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
植物列等来平衡中央与地方的发展那么事实上本席是非常支持这样的做法确实有关于公务员的官职等的重新调配是有必要的但是本席也看到一个问题就是说你们在这次的调整里面你们似乎忽略了学校 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3459.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3482.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
學校機關好像其實我們知道像公立學校不管是從大學中學小學應該都有一些公務員的這個配置可是你們看看就是說這個公務他們就是同樣都是國家考試考試及格的公務員可是卻在因為他服務的機關的不同而以至於他的這個職等這個所列的職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3483.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3506.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
有差別同時在升遷的時候呢它的這個天花板其實也不同譬如說你同樣是基層的公務員以組員來講在公立大學高中國中小的組員他最高只能夠升到七職等可是在地方在中央的二級二三級機關的組員就可以升到八職等那在組員專員組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3509.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3536.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
邊省秘書主秘處長都是同樣的情況也就是說是往中央或地方機關那裡服務的公務員他的值等的升遷會比在公立大學或是其他學校裡面更為順暢而且可能也更有誘因這個基本上會造成一個問題就是可能在大學裡面和在這些學校裡面公立學校裡面他留不住好的公務員因為大家如果想說我要往 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3537.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3550.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
只等更高的地方去的話就會往其他的機關走所以這邊是不是有可能就是請學習部也一併的考量有關於在公立學校裡面服務的這一群公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3552.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3566.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他職等可以做一些調整我跟委員簡單的一個包括我們做職務調整一定是先鎖定一些就優先順序啦應該這樣講那所有事情我們意見我們都會參考包括現在我們在學校裡面可能沒有特別這一次在這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3567.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3587.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
但是這個我們會再跟行政部門好好再討論那學校跟行政機關最大差別學校人比較少啦就是說你也知道學校雖然大部分都是業用人員可是不能把他們當成是公務員孤兒嘛不會當公務員孤兒啦那另外像是醫院裡面的公務員因為一些公立醫院裡面可能也有一些公務員的一些配置在這次的調整裡面他們有調到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3590.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3595.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
醫院體系裡面有另外一套方式不過我想醫院我們另外一塊體系在處理中 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3603.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3622.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
總之就是說這些都是具有公務員資格的這些人那麼我們希望就是說全區部在調整相關的職等職官等的時候也要注意到公平性一致性不要讓在其他單位服務的這些公務員就覺得好像全區部大小眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3623.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3648.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們還是很希望說在這次你們調整裡面能夠把這些學校裡面的公務員能夠一併納入接下來還有一個問題就是剛剛其實也有提到的公務員結社權的問題公務員這次因為考試院也提出公務人員協會的修法那裡面又特別提到就是要成立特種 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3649.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3663.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
公務人員協會那你們現在是因為不允許警察司法醫事等等專業人員去組成跨機關的協會所以呢才特別要增加這個特種公務人員協會是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3665.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3680.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
對 就是當時是針對就是說因為我們現在是以機關為主體所以就變成那個地方的消防同仁他們的反應他們就只能參加縣市政府的協會那縣市政府有沒有協會當然會變另外一個問題那第二個是他們的意見沒有辦法反映所以我們就做了這樣的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3681.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3710.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是 那既然說你們都考慮到就是說是基層的警察 消防等等這些人員他們有這個強烈的希望能夠組織協會的這樣的需求可是呢你們你們放寬的部分項目可是卻在草案的第七條裡面還是說有一些排除的情況簡單來說就是如果說當涉及到像待遇值等薪資等等這些條件或者是說像警察人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3711.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3722.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
最在意的就是有關於像裝備的汰換還有危險加急等等這些難道他們在你們接下來的修法裡面到底可不可以列為協商事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3724.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3744.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我跟委員報告,不管是公會或是協會,因為我們台灣有個很大的特色,我們內部的人力資源管理制度幾乎都是在法律明定,簡單的說法律寫實了啦,既然是法律寫實了,大概就不太適合作為協商的事項,那可以做的是什麼,它可以透過這個過程來表達, |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3746.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3765.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
譬如說也許哪些法律不夠好不夠好那可以怎麼一個修正比較會是這樣一個方式啦我想跟委員做這樣一個報告但是如果說只是這樣的話其實我就感受到但是協商的事項還是有放寬的成意不足嘛基本上我們當然希望就是未來他們能夠組織協會之後能夠針對與這些警消人員有關的權益的事項能夠刺激的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3772.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3801.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
但是你們現在在第十條裡面有講到如果說它涉及到公共安全的問題的話那又排除但是就像我們剛剛說的像是裝備汰換難道不重要嗎在你們自己的修法裡面就講說如果說是警察機關駐地安全維護相關設施執行各項警務的警力配置警用裝備攜帶的實機警用的槍械與防彈背心採購等等這些事項是不可以提出協商的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3803.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3829.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這細節的東西其實在這種過程裡面我們會很跟譬如說主管機關是內政部這邊的一個討論所以細節的部分是不是這樣子我想可能我理解這樣因為有些部分是可以再做討論的有些協商事項涉及到公共安全所以它就不能夠列為協商就像我們剛剛講像警察的這個防彈背心它是很重要這種採購的部分或是要採購哪些為什麼不能夠加入協商我想定義上應該不是這個意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3830.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3856.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
應該說那個部分因為採購設計採購後面的程序你們自己的修法理由這是本席在這裡看到的一個問題點希望說能夠既然我們要修公務人員協會能夠讓這些警消司法警察人員可以組織特種協會的話當然就希望能夠更開放讓他們有更多的權利可以有一些談判協商的事項然後最後一個非常小的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3858.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3878.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們知道身心障礙者權益保障法裡面其實有談到如果因為身心障礙者提前老化的話中央勞工主管機關應該要建立身心障礙勞工的提早退休的機制來保障他的退出職場的生活品質那麼這個是在身心障礙者權益保障法裡面的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3879.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3902.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那么现在就是有一些公务人员他有身心障碍的情况的公务人员他提出的问题就是说我们目前在公务人员退休之前抚恤法里面的规定是只有规定就是这些公务员身心障碍的公务员他如果要申请自愿退休必须任职满15年而且要符合所谓重度以上的等级 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3902.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3926.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
就是他身心障礙等級要符合重度以上等級可是我們知道有些像是中度的身心障礙的公務員他可能鑑定的結果沒有達到重度但是隨著年齡的老化他的體能生理狀況其實早就已經沒有辦法去負荷這種高強度的行政工作所以我們在這裡是不是建議就是說考試院學習部這邊也可以一併的去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3927.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3942.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
有關於這個中度重度這個之間是不是可以再多列一個標準那麼可以讓一些可能這個偏向重度但他還不到重度的這些公務員也可以讓他們有提前提早退休的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3943.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3960.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我跟委員報 重度現在大概法律本來就有講不過中度可以經過一定的評估不過委員的意見我想我帶回去再跟同仁再好好看看說這中間有沒有可能需要應應實務上的一個需要哪些部分也許可以再做一些討論但是這個真的是一個要相當謹慎的一個議題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3961.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3986.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好那我希望說你們回去可以好好討論一下這個議題那是不是也可以請你們給我一份報告就是說到底目前在公務體系公教體系裡面有多少的是屬於身心障礙的這樣的公務員然後達到周度以上的有多少位事實的部分我先提供給委員但是至於那個討論的部分可能沒有辦法那麼那麼有一個結論但是就是相關的數據麻煩請先提供給我參考好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4002.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4003.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
主席好 有請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4017.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4031.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
委員長 秘書長早這是本席第一次質詢考試院我想關心我長期關心的議題當然我想先從最近報導不知道秘書長有沒有看到最近一直有媒體報導公務員提早退出職場的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4035.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4063.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
有當然我相信您一定有在了解各種原因今天我想針對其中一個潛在的我很關心的原因就是職場霸凌想問就是考試院目前的狀況我想我們都看到考試院修正工部門的職安新制去年7月上路到現在大概已經有9個月了請問一下祕書長您覺得目前做得如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4064.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4090.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
目前就是立法之後主要工作就在各項制度機制的建立那保訓會這邊也充實了人力要來處理好這個業務那當然跟各機關人員訓練等等很多工作我是不是請主委跟您詳細說明沒關係 細節可以先不要講那請問秘書長那你們有沒有一個自我評估的機制譬如說一年或是半年知道自己做的怎麼樣請主委來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4091.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4117.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好先簡要說明我了解一下公委員報告我們那個您剛提到的自我檢視的機制那大概我們有分成幾個部分第一個就是我們從去年的安慰辦法從去年修法通過以後呢我們就連續已經發出三次的這個調查表那確定就是說各機關都有依照我們的規定還有相關的指引來 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4118.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4133.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個完成應該所做的部分那這是第一個就是我們去了解現場的情況那跟委員報告就是目前所有的機關全部都已經依照這個規定組成了機關內的這個安全及衛生防護委員會然後呢這個相關課程的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4136.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4157.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
觸及率呢也這個基本上呢達到了九成五以上那第二個部分是我們自我審視的部分那我們在機關裡面呢我們定期都會這個就各機關還有公務人員他們會其實這個陳如委員所提到這是大家很關心友善職場的最基本面所以呢他們所有的這個基層的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4158.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4159.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
你剛講的那個是不是那個自我檢核表 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4176.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4199.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
自我檢核表是其中機關需要填的一份表單也就是法律上規定每年3月底前要報送到保訓會的那張表單那這個部分如果你們因為你剛說95%都有達成那如果有相關的統計可以讓我知道一下好不好好 跟委員報告目前陸陸續續都在回收中因為今天是3月19嘛對 那目前呢這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4203.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4217.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
大部分的這個機關其實他們都很還蠻早的都沒有像我們這個退退到最後的時候因為我覺得對我來講時間沒有那麼急就是做好比較重要那你如果有相關統計再給本席看好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4218.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4222.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我想再回來請問秘書長其實我們是要肯定你們7月就開始根據修過的法把它納入自我檢核表我有拿到相關的表我想這樣的做法是蠻好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4235.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4255.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
今天我比較是想針對這個表的內容想跟秘書長討論是不是有可能精進那我讓秘書長看一下這個表格你看這邊譬如說這一份前面是講當然就是安全及衛生防護這邊有防止機械設備器具危害爆炸性等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4255.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4283.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那但是就是這裡面其實你們把兩個東西放在一起一個是職業安全一個是職場霸凌那其實會有一些情況就是好像有些時候是不適用的那我想問就是說秘書長覺得有沒有可能評估有些完全不相干譬如對那個機構單位是不是有可能加上一個不適用這是第一個有可能喔那你們可以評估一下好 這個可以評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4284.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4306.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那另外就是這個減核表好像不夠細緻就是因為職場風險的等級跟業務其實非常的不一樣因為你現在是所有的公部門大家知道公部門數量何其多我是給你們參考一下勞動部怎麼做因為其實我們的法源都是那個職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4306.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4333.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那勞動部執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引中他的風險評估表有依不同的職場分類譬如這邊我找出來的像社工他長的就會不太一樣那另外右邊那個環境檢點物理環境方面他就是以噪音、照明等等為主所以這個風險評估表是有可能依照不同的職場做分類那不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4334.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4352.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
就是秘書長覺得這個部分可不可以去研議有沒有辦法稍微分類分流一下呢謝謝委員在這個實際執行面中提供我們那麼多寶貴建議這部分我想我們可以來研議因為委員報告其實就我的角色來講我也是填表人你也是填表人我們是接受保訓會作為機關之一我接受保訓會這邊的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4354.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4374.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以我們在填這個部分的時候其實委員剛剛也就建議我們自己委會覺得有點共鳴這樣對對對要不然就填太多跟自己這個機構不相關的那真正要他注意的東西他反而忽略到那這樣就很可惜謝謝那個秘書長也覺得這是可以去精進的那再來我也想提一個部分其實你們這個處理原則中有明定迴避規定是蠻好的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4377.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4397.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
包含就是如果有就是機關要要求迴避或採取適當措施不得參與職場霸凌的相關調查工作那行政程序法也有講到什麼本人 配偶 前配偶 血親三等 三親等如果是事件當事人時要迴避 這個沒問題吧陳秘書長這個是滿好的規定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4402.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4429.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那現在的情況就是還有另外一個原則你們這邊也規範了這些都必須要保密對不對因為調查結果很可能霸凌不存在嘛所以這要保密這部分是不是也沒有問題是沒有問題那所以這邊你們也有寫得非常好保護當事人與受邀協助調查人員的個人隱私其他人格法役對其姓名或其他足以辨識身份之資料上面都講機關要落實保障嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4430.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4454.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這樣是不是也沒問題就是我們現在講的是調查過程並不是調查結果因為調查有可能成立有可能不成立在調查過程中因為時間有限那我這邊就收到陳情有陳情人陳情他們是被邀請的調查委員結果居然拿到當事人身份證字號及電話地址這個有必要嗎 秘書長你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4457.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4472.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個名字都不需要了居然還有身份證字號跟電話筆記這個應該是不需要啦不需要喔所以這明顯就是說你們的辦法中寫了可是執行上這個檢核表可能會看不出來的那這個部分有好那謝謝祕書長也肯定這樣的事情應該不能發生那我想保訓會也肯定保訓會今年已經要積極增修訂相關指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4484.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4497.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
積極增修訂相關執行性原則例如安慰防護職場霸凌防治相關指引我想這是非常好的事喔那我想你們既然要做相關指引是不是可以做兩件事喔第一個謝謝剛剛秘書長已經講了就是分類更精進一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4501.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4522.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那第二個你這個具體指引迴避原則要怎麼執行好像有人還是看不懂就是我想我收到的是願意信任我的來跟我澄清的那可能還有別的所以這整個不管是教育或者是具體指引的工作譬如申訴人足以辨識身份的資料這些如何遮蔽在操作上 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4523.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4544.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
是不是能夠更清楚更精進那確定在執行面真的能讓大家看到我們政府要做好就是防治霸凌的這整個細節這個秘書長可以承諾嗎這個委員剛剛的建議我們待會兒去來做一個討論看看到底是這個規範上面不夠細緻還是說在操作面大家可能沒有注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4544.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4567.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那如果這樣的話我想就需要處理的強化宣導或者是強化規範的部分我們來研議或者是指引可能寫的還不夠細大家看不懂那個迴避原則跟那個資料遮蔽的部分了解 這個我們待會去研究 謝謝你那那個秘書長可不可以大概多好時間內可以本席一個你們準備怎麼處理的報告或者讓我辦公室知道一下也不一定要那個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4569.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4577.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
一個月一個月 非常好謝謝秘書長那就這樣子了肯定你們在這方面的努力那就一起精進謝謝委員謝謝范委員接下來我們就有請審判會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4599.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4626.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
主席 我們請全序部施部長好 請施部長秘書長 我主要是要針對這個相關考機法我再請教這個施部長如果有其他有關政策部分秘書長如果要補充就請秘書長可以上台來做政策上面的整理政策的表述這個施部長我想這個剛才前面也有委員有詢問到有關於我們這個公務人員的考機制度的相關問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4628.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4643.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那我看你們這個業務報告,你們今天業務報告裡面有關今年工作重點及立法計畫第四點裡面就列入說你們要精進考機法制,建構完善的考機制度這是你們的工作重點,今年度的工作重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4644.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4665.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那這個事實上我個人在這個我們在這個公共政策網路參與平台所謂中台獎裡面事實上也是有這樣子有關於這個考積法的這個相關提案這個部分市部長你有了解嗎我理解我知道知道嘛這個網路我們公共政策網路平台也就是我們考積法的這個修改的部分事實上在這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4669.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4673.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
社會上面也是很重視這個議題而且已經討論多時了有各種不一樣的意見我在天下雜誌上面看到我們師部長關於考積法的發言基本上講現行的考積法已經沒有獎勵效果了 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4688.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4702.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這是用引號,這是事務長講的啦現行的考記法已經沒有獎勵的效果那他的標題這個文章的標題就是說有做事沒做事,薪水都一樣就因為這些原因所以我今天大概就針對考記法的部分我會來跟事務長討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4704.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4731.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那這接下來在我們的業務報告一樣在我們業務報告裡面有關於近期已執行的業務情形裡面你們提了兩點第一點是通盤檢討修正公務員考機法剛才討論的這個部分那第二點是檢討研修公務員任用法所以今天大概會就考機法跟任用法這兩個部分來請教那這個其實公務員考機法它裡面的這些相關的問題很多是 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4733.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4756.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
同樣兩個價值的橫平啦就是這個公務體認用公平但是他同時他又要能夠這個這個這個激勵績效這樣子兩個價值之間的橫平會造這個橫平所以他在從過去一直到現在公務員考積法他一直是大法官會議解釋的常客就是說可以說大法官會議解釋裡面最多的就是公務員考積法 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4757.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4777.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
從歷年來大法官會議解釋有8次大法官會議解釋針對我們公務員考機法到憲法法庭還有一次憲法判決加起來其實是9次的判決事實上在這從民國75年到114年我們也提過5次修法整個公務員考機法有5次修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4778.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4794.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那這整個運動體系我想從過去到現在其實市部長我想給你相當的肯定啦因為你大概非常我看你非常用心的是真的真的把它當作一個志業啦要改革這公務人員考機制度我看你是真的很用心的在在談但這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4797.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4826.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
非常很重要而且你很用心但是他偏偏他就是在在他的改革是不容易的不容易的那所以我大概就是從這個從過去這個公路人員考機考機法的修法經驗過去說五次提我們五次提到立法院來修法但是都後來都沒有修成了都沒有修成了因為這個都都每次一到這個什麼考機比例到比例要不要要不要維持到這些爭議這個就大家就這個共識就很低了所以每一次都沒有修法修成了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4827.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4854.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們大概在整個我們把他提到這個既然你們又把他列為今年度的重要工作事項那也是你們的重要工作成果所以我們就重點就是說我們這個公務員考機法修法到底有哪幾個重點我這裡是提出這個三個大變相第一個就是我剛剛提的這個等地的比例就是到甲等有沒有要設置比例多少比例甲等地的比例這是第一個面向第二面向就是你在打考機的你那個區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4856.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4869.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
他到底具不具曲面性的這個平良的機制到底要建立這是過去一直詬病的就是說我們這個到底為什麼我甲等為什麼我乙等這個平良的這個機制這個東西這個平良性這個是第二個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4871.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4891.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那第三個面向就是大概就是這個一般基層公務員比較關心的就是那你主管打烤機你要不要負責就是你這個主管的平和責任我做平和這個責任大概這三個面向是我們如果我們要做烤機法的改革我想這三個是重要的面向所以一個一個面向來跟這個部長討論你們在全區部我看在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4895.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4915.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
一個禮拜前你們全區部有講說你們這個其實你們過去到現在你們已經經過向考試院進行了五次的專案說明進行五次的專案說明而且你們在這個你們報告裡面也提到從114年6月到8月召開三次的專案會議這個專案說明會議而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4918.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4945.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
達成一定的共識之後在十月跟十一月又召開兩次總共召開五次的專案說明會議嘛對不對那有關於這個我現在要請問部長就是說有關這個長期大家對於這個比例配合的這個僵化這部分我們什麼樣的改革方向我想我用更整體來跟委員報告可能因為我們的方向會跟現在不一樣所以不能用現在甲乙丙這種概念來看我們未來的方向簡單講 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4947.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4956.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我長期在政府部門服務那我自己是學人資的那我還是要坦白講人資的那一套理論 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4957.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4980.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
或技術放在政府部門來必須要做修正要不然會沒有辦法可行性在政府部門如果沒有辦法可行性就是為什麼以前送的五次烤雞法的方式通通沒有下文對 沒有下文就是因為它會有可行性的問題但是我們希望又可行又要兼顧一些也不要說完全沒有效果所以我們大的方向是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4981.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5006.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們不會再有甲乙丙那個概念我們會重新用另外簡化的等次我不贊成如果我們現在連甲乙都很難區別的如果你再把顆粒再拉高老實說那爭論會更大所以我們的方式是簡化方式簡單講我們大概會當烤雞簡單講未來機關要達到最重要兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5007.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5030.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
如果我們會設定條件那個真的是做不好的符合什麼條件 你就是未打良好那只要你沒有未打良好 基本上就是非常好 良好那在良好上面 如果我們再有一個條件如果你真的符合更好 你有一個優等 特優我們就這樣子而已 但是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5032.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5041.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
從理論的實務或者人質的實務不可能特優惹人會比那所謂良好跟對好這是我們要改變嘛那所謂良好跟不良 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5042.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5066.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這兩個中有比例我們不會設定比例這是重點我們絕對不會設定比例不設定比例這個比例才是重點要核實根據法定的標準你不管它叫做假等叫做疑等還是它叫做良好叫做優良都是到底要不要設定比例這個問題我們不會去設定所謂叫未達良好了這個比例不會因為我們就根據你符合這個條項機關就要核實了基本上我們的整個修法方向是要把過去的這個比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5067.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5088.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這個比例配額的僵化要把它廢除掉這是第一個方向這是第一個面向第二個面向有關於評量方式過去這個評量方式大家一直在講說不過如果你簡化之後這個評量方式就比較容易了我們就是有兩個主要的標準一個是如果未達良好必須要什麼標準未達良好基本上要有一些具體的事證如果你要更好你就要有什麼標準我們主要是用這兩個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5090.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5109.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
接下來就是第三個面向就是我們所提到的主管平和的責任這個有我們剛剛講在這壯開講這個網路政治平台上面大家也提到說你要付理由啦要付理由所以你剛剛講說如果我們未來改成說良好跟未達良好那未達良好部分你一定要付 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5109.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5125.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
一定要附這樣相關的書面理由跟說明而且我們會認為如果你年終要打人家未了良好在平常的考核裡面就一定要先示警啦對 平常要示警就是平常考核的時候如果你覺得他真的不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5126.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5141.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
未達人你一定要在 你在真正最後做考機之前而且要跟他溝通因為我們不希望 老實說政府部門大家辛辛苦苦考進來 我們不希望好像是隨便就fire一個同仁 這也不是好事情啦所以過程要給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5142.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5154.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個知道說他做得好不好好這樣子的的修法方向我個人是非常支持而且我認為說這樣子是事實上可以解決要我剛講這整個三大面向的在這些問題啦齁這個可以可以一併解決那我們希望說那時程呢你們計劃什麼時候呃應該這樣講我們大概我剛剛有報告我預計在這個月會正式進入跟各機關發出正式的這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5165.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5194.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
徵詢但是我們會請各機關也要把這個意見那你們預計在什麼時候完成如果順利的話我想我希望在下個月如果順利啦大家同意我們這個做法的話我不希望說大家有意見我還往考試院送老實說也沒有意義啦所以我希望在這樣一個過程裡面大概能夠順利到下個月四月到五月之中間我能夠順利把這個法案草案送到考試院因為還是要經過考試院就是希望說四月五月能夠送到考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5195.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5212.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這樣子就時程也很具體了那一個小問題就是過去在修法的時候常常說在打烤機的時候你們這個修法的時程跟這個打烤機的時間重疊人事行政局就說你這樣子我根本我就這個部分要注意一下謝謝委員的提醒這個部分烤機法到這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5216.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5238.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那有關公務人員任用法的部分,我這邊給你顯示一個比例啦我看這近六年公務人員辭職的人數這個看比例,其實辭職率看起來提升沒有很多從0.8%提升到1.4%比例看起來沒有很高啦但其實實際上的辭職人數是攀升啦從1157個人到將近2000人 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5244.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5263.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個其實這個攀升的比例那這個這樣子的你們是怎麼看待你們覺得這個是人力結構的流失還是你們覺得這個影響有限我做一個部長我長期觀察這個數字來講我不想事實上人數在增加沒有錯但是他佔整個公務人員比例真的是很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5264.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5283.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這剛我講的比例1.4而已那我再講一個數字我們在很多辭職的同仁裡面大部分都是新進的沒幾年的同仁那他後來呢又重新考試回來好我接下來就是要講這個快要兩層左右已經考回來我接下來就是要講這個你看你看我接下來就是要講這個所以我的意思在講是所以問題一定有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5284.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5292.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
為什麼我考上了我要辭掉然後在兩年內我再去拼另外一個考試再考進來因為我們是分發考試我們是分發考試他可能分到了機關他覺得而且不得轉任 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5299.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5322.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
因為我們現在有高普考三年地特有六年那我跟委員報告這個一定是用人機關很複雜議題的政策放在法律裡面這近六年來這個辭職的公務員剛剛你講有兩層會在任公職這兩人裡面有七成五次第二次再考試考進來的再重新再考試所以這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5324.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5342.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
對於這個高考的這些綁約地特這樣子的這些問題我們有沒有想要做改變或檢討我跟委員報告我們現在當然已經有一個室友是說如果他有育三歲以下的一個小孩子可以在一定條件裡面他可以轉啦那我們一方面也在檢討這個可能要請秘書長我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5346.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5368.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個其實不得轉調的這些相關的法條依據是在公務人員考試法是在公務人員考試法裡面那這個部分我們是不是能夠整體做結構性的調整要不然這實在是我們一說出來就很荒謬這麼多人大家考上了我還辭掉辭掉再去重新考再考回來如果這掉了我還是不高興那我再辭我再考 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5369.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5391.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我瞭解委員講這個問題這個是我們國家的特殊結構下的特殊的副作用因為我們是統一考試統一分發用人機關完全不能選擇他就等著我們分發一個人給他但是分發的這個權利是在於考生依照分數去填寫他的志願但他填寫志願的時候我簡單講他最後填了一個譬如說在東部 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5392.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5420.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
他並不是真的想去東部服務但他只是想要拿到這個分發以後完成訓練使得他可以得到公務員資格那所以 達到公務員資格之後他就有一個底氣他可以重考再職重考或離職重考但他已經具備資格所以這個對用人機關來講是很大的困擾就是說我提供一個職缺但這個人心不在此然後我們就變成一個過水跟新人訓練的機關所以我們也必須考慮到他們的需求要有限制轉調這個要求啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5420.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5427.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那但是這個現在要怎麼樣提前解除這個條件我們可以來討論你們檢討一下除了這個離職率以外我們看看我最後提到這個你看我們這個辭職的從108年到113年辭職的人員的職等跟年資 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5440.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5449.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
其實蠻集中的,其實真的蠻集中,集中在幾個值等啊在委任三值等跟這個鑑任六值等、鑑任七值等加起來,這三個加起來就到68%啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5452.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5476.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
就要實質的68%快要到7成了那如果是70等以下的幾乎就是9成了幾乎就是9成了這個問題我希望說我們能夠也能夠針對這樣子這個做一些具體的改革方向包括考機機效這些聯動機制還是要留財啦還是要留財好不好我跟委員說要報這個值等就是剛剛好那個考試剛分發的對就是考試剛分發就集中在這裡就快到7成了好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5481.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5507.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請林沛翔委員發言好 有請考試院劉秘書長跟我們程序部施部長好 請秘書長還有施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5512.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5527.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
兩位長官我想先請問一個我想全國都很關心的問題就是現在到底軍人加薪跟警消退休金的狀況是怎麼樣目前執行的狀況如何呢軍人加薪不是我們的業務範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5529.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5545.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那您說警察就是就那個警察人事條例修法的部分那就審定的部分全區部這邊去年底已經之前都已經完成審定函那執行的部分呢執行的狀況如何執行的狀況因為這個就是跟全區跟這個對不起跟行政院編列預算這個有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5546.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5571.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以說就是行政院沒有編列預算嘛現在的狀況是那所以如果問題是出在行政院的話那行政院不願意編列預算是不是我們考試院應該主動啟動所謂的院計協商來去依法編列預算呢跟委員報告因為它這個修法是修在警察人事條例裡面這個條例是行政院的主管的法律所以也不是考試院主管的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5572.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5582.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那他的預算法律在行政院那預算也是行政院要編列依照法律的規定所以這個我們沒有這個反而是跟我們的退府制度是沒有沒有關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5583.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5610.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以我所以說現在狀況就是說沒有編列預算那小勢雲變成是說這個法過了但是沒錢可以沒錢可以執行對吧對他目前的狀況是這樣老師說我就覺得我讓我覺得很困惑因為嚴格講起來不管不是只有公務人員是公務人員警員警軍人也好警消也好也是廣義的公務人員也是所謂廣義的這個國家體制他就是公務人員的一部分對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5612.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5640.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那老實說他們在比起一般的公務人員來講警消尤其是警消軍警其實對於國家的保護跟幫助是更重要的他們長期站在第一線他們的壓力比別人都來的大老實說我們現在看到我們很多的法制都是選美國那美國也好還是說任何先進國家至少是優等優良的先進國家都對於軍公教警消是給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5641.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5641.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
足夠的照護的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5642.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5670.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
但是很可惜的說真的如果法律通過之後我們行政部門沒有依法執行然後甚至說特地苛扣預算那嚴格講起來對於我們的這個公務人員其實蠻刻薄的不管是哪個黨對於說這個年改政策把退休金一砍再砍我想在座的所有的文官體系文官體系出來的人都會覺得感同身受這是不好的這是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5671.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5693.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
尤其是說我剛剛查了一下整個公務員體系在美國的這個整個金額是台灣的三倍到五倍之多但是相對比較起來我們台灣就用這種年改之類的這種年改方式對於這個我們的公務人員無形的苛扣那我是不知道說各位的感覺怎麼樣我是覺得不捨啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5694 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5711.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為我的想法一向都是如果我們這個國家要能夠好好運行要能夠正確運行那優質的公務人員不能少但是另外一方面我也想就是直接講如果說預算沒有編那其實難免會讓很多的公務體系的人心寒 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5712.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5736.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那同樣的不只是對過去的公務人員對過去的警消對過去的軍人那他們是苛扣的之外其實對新來的人才要進來剛剛我也聽到說市部長在回應這個審發會委員的質詢那其實這公務體系裡面現在變成是說請問一下要報考的人是不是越來越少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5738.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5759.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
警察整體是整體報告人數受傷的影響一定會下降但是警察報告人數目前我們還沒有說不是問題不過消防的部分消防的部分比較有空缺因為主要是我們的需求量變得很大所以我們考進來的人越來越多入選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5760.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5778.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
儘管有增加但是缺員越來越多因為大家需要更多的人力去執行這個工作然後讓大家不要過勞所以這個部分的需求還沒有辦法完全平衡那整體公務人員呢我也想請教整體公務人員的考試人數是下降中那其實是想算是另外一種的國安危機吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5780.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5803.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
除了人員危機除了少子化危機之外當然跟少子化危機會有一點關係但是最直接的就是說如果我們國家的優秀人才都不願意投身公務系統的時候那會不會導致說我們國家整個行政效率或整個國家整個制度的敗壞呢這算是另外一種的國安危機其實但是我們都選擇性的不看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5804.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5824.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這個不會說沒有看到不過我想他主要重點的問題是反映在那幾個入取不足額的相關類科就是我們會聚焦在這幾個部分來努力那整體雖然說報考人數有降低但是我想積極想考公務員的人他還是會積極報告就是我們看到很多重複入取啊重複報考甚至辭職再去考就表示說其實還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5825.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5847.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
熱心想要來這個體系的人還是會很努力的想請問一下目前考試院掌握的最新數據是多少去年報考公務人員的報考人數是多少那整體報考率大概是多少這個我請部長來說明好委員好 公務員報告去年整個公務人員考試報考的是149,130人那錄取是18,413人 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5852.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5877.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好那我想請問一下那如果說現在報考人數向低嘛那各方面都在降低那請問一下如果有沒有什麼具體的改革方案我聽說好像前一陣子好像就把我們的國家考試報名費調漲了25%那現在有動漲嗎跟委員報告那因為是考選基金如果不做這個調整的話可能今年底就破產了所以我們也是不得已必須做這樣的調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5878.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5904.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那如果在這個前提之下因為考選基金要破產所以我們調高的報名費那我們現在也實質的報考人數在往下降很多那是不是最後面是說一考就上還是說我們就是什麼人才會亂選呢有沒有可能呢跟委員報告目前的入取率大概是百分之二十但是還是要看類科那其實跟委員所關心的大概主要會集中在幾個類科不足額的情況會比較高特別是土木類科 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5905.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5922.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
土木類課一個類課大概就佔了說不足我的大概的三分之二所以說老實講我為什麼提出啊謝謝謝謝部長市部長也請回好了不好意思我其實為什麼提出這些問題其實有一個就是一個都指向同一個現象就是說當我們的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5923.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5946.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
前面警消他們退休金該撥的沒有撥那我們三讀通過的法案沒有編列預算那其實表面上受害的只是說這些警消退休警消警消人員而已可是實質上全民都在看尤其是下一代的年輕人他們會覺得說講話都不算話我為什麼要進入公務體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5949.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5962.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
當我們公務體系的威信的誠信已經被嚴重去受到挑戰的時候我們怎麼期待說下一代的我們的這些新興學子覺得對於公務這個公務體系還有任何的憧憬 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5963.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5978.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
有任何的改革方案嗎各位報告那個您提的這個警察人條例修法跟預算編列的問題因為不是考試院值錢所以我沒有辦法回應啦那對於您剛剛講說年輕人看到這個退休制度的部分他到底跟他報考的意願有沒有關係我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5978.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5996.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
報告院這件事的確有非常多因素不過我要跟您報告就是說現在新進公務人員他適用的是個人專戶制所以我們現在在原來的退服法或者退服法之外的這個警察人是條例的修正這個部分其實跟新進人員他們將來自己的那個退休金的制度其實是脫鉤的是沒有關聯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5997.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6021.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
因為他們已經在採用個人專戶制那個人專戶制它的優點就是說它比較不會出現這個繳少領多然後這個有潛藏債務的問題但它也有相對應的保障它跟我們的勞工制度也是對應的那但是您講的這個報考人數下降的部分當然我們會很重視有沒有具體方案啊老師說因為剛剛部長講我們聚焦在幾個真的是比較招募不足的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6022.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6051.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們這個有些部位要從教育資源的投入開始比如說我們發現前一陣子我們發現就是說土木人才的確有不足的錄取那它又反映在東部這邊東部的縣市基層他們非常欠缺這個人力所以我們就檢討出說東部這邊其實沒有土木科系的教育高等教育作為它當地人力的培養的支撐所以我們跟工程會這邊協調我們跨院合作後來我們去協調宜蘭大學到花蓮去設 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6052.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6074.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我想這個我們在立法院其實如果我們遇到看到這個現象通常不是單純的個案秘書長你現在回答是單純個案的改善我講的是整個目前整個現況都是這樣那如果說可以的話你們的改革方案不是只有針對說我們現在講東部縣市土木學科而是明年搞不好還是一樣一堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6075.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6090.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
一堆的缺出來但是不見得有人可以我剛剛在報告者有講就是說其實就一個年輕人來講我到民間部門我就是遞履歷表面試也許有考試但是那個考試絕對不會像我們國家考試那麼繁複 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6090.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6118.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那年輕人要來進公部門他投注的成本真的很高我們其實調查很多入企人員平均可能考三年然後在這個被考的期間他可能沒有正職工作他其實投入非常大的心力很多人是這麼熱衷的就是願意來當公務員但是我們的不管是年改是退來各方面其實正在澆熄他們的熱情所以您講就是說我們多方面的解決方案包含我們講現在高補考要減課因為我們考試的那個門檻真的很高所以我們高補考減課也是減輕考生的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6121.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6131.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
然後我們讓考試更聚焦核心職能我們希望讓考試正在準備的成本不要太高否則它跟私部門求職的成本差距那麼大的話我們也很難去競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6132.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6156.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
老師講您講的是一套但是老師講不管是說對於這個退休金制度的不公平之外然後還有包括說調漲國家考試因為這個考選基金要破產直接調高25%這其實講的是一套但是做的時候讓民眾有沒有感覺到讓未來的人願不願意投入公務體系我想你們自己會自己感覺最清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6157.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6184.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
應付國會議員的質詢是一回事實質上現況如何解決又是一回事我會期待說考試院提出一個真正提出一個改革方案一個能夠激勵讓未來年輕人投入公文官體系的一個改革方案謝謝如果有機會的話再跟委員做下面講可以給我至少能調整的方向至少給我一個我會整一下我們對這個部分的做法來給委員做一個書面報告什麼時候要給我呢我想應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6187.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6207.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
一個月?一個月可以,沒有問題好,謝謝好,謝謝林沛翔委員那接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言好,我們先請秘書長,謝謝好,請劉秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6216.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6235.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那我想首先呢我看到就是秘書長在3月13號的時候國家人力資源論壇上面有提到有數據才有真相並強調我們考試院這三年來呢都強調一個行政決策透過資料庫分析跟學界的合作來提升我們決策品質這樣子的方向其實我非常給予肯定就是因為這段時間我去日本跟澳洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6236.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6250.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那我跟他們在聊的時候呢他們的很多政策都有非常清楚的一個數據例如過去他們可能是蹲室廁所改成坐室廁所這裡面都有非常多的數據去支撐他們的政策要往哪個方向去前進那或者是像是澳洲的公共空間綠色 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6252.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6275.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這個遊戲場啊綠色的公共空間等等的都有所以我這個方面我是非常的支持但是我想請教就是秘書長已經推動三年了那我們現在到底有哪一個政策或是重大的制度改革是依循數據分析而正式啟動的跟委員報告其實我們做這個政策是希望讓大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6277.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6298.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
對於事實的分析 尤其我們的同仁在做政策演繹跟做的時候也包含我們自己決策者 包含我們的考試委員 政府院長在做這個決策的時候能夠有更清楚的數據的分析所以您說具體哪一個政策是這樣我認為幾乎多數的政策都是如此因為我們現在這幾年來我們都會希望說在決策的時候大家就會問實際的狀況究竟如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6302.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6330.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就像剛剛我們很多委員執行也講出了比如說到底會辭職的公務同仁都是誰如果透過數據分析我們看到說大部分是剛考進來的同仁比較多所以就不知道說那可能是限制轉調跟他們要為了改分發而重新考試類似像這樣的現況的了解我們都會希望有實際的數字佐證而不是都是很多人的個案的意見的彙整但是可能就沒有清楚的全貌主要是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6331.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6338.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好 那接下來我也想要請教一下我們的施能傑部長但是可能這個東西也會跟秘書長有關係就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6341.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6369.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們目前呢我看了一下我手邊的資料我們111年呢我們公教人員的生育率跟全國相比還領先0.29約1.33倍但是到113年的時候呢我們這個領先全國的幅度往下降了也就是說過去我們可能認為公教人員比較願意生啊但是目前這個優勢已經不見了那我想了解就先請教秘書長就是我們有沒有任何的研究來了解說為什麼我們的公務員有這樣子的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6371.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6383.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們市長或是部長可以回答這一點我跟委員報告當然我以前在當人事長的時候曾經做真的是跑過資料run過整體上看起來是比較高但是如果工人有很多類別對 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6384.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6413.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
差異很大譬如說區分成公務人員、警察、教師然後去讓他的生育率其實是差異很大我先講這個拒絕數字是這樣那整體這是一個整體的東西那老實說我們並沒有真正就這部分我看過很多比較細緻的那個分析研究報告為什麼公務人員生育率的影響他一些應該我們也沒有做過這方面的分析報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6414.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6439.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好 了解好 那我認為我們應該要去了解這件事情因為我想大環境的少子化一定是有一些影響性然後整個價值觀的改變也多少都有影響但是這個領先幅度還是有點太低的我覺得這可以做一個研究來了解但是我想有件事情我們可以先來做就是說在去年的時候其實12月我們的政府已經宣布了這個利多的政策也就是說育嬰留庭會改成6加1個月雙親來共同育兒這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6442.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6456.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那目前呢勞動部是大規模鋪天蓋地的讓很多的勞工朋友都會知道但是我詢問了一些公教人員他們其實並不知道這件事情所以我認為我們在宣傳的這件事情上面應該可以做改善部長你的看法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6458.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6484.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我想謝謝委員我們會跟公務同仁談這個事情但是很實際的狀況是這樣這個應該要修法所以部裡面其實已經在啟動那個修法的那個程序中我想修法跟宣傳這兩件事情應該是可以同步作業那我想說那宣傳的部分是可不可以給我們一個簡單的說明你們預計如何擴大宣傳這件事情以及我們現在修法預計大概什麼時候可以完成呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6484.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6512.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好 我們內部的修法大概應該是下個月應該就可以完成我們內部的程序那我們會報到考試院去那行政院那邊我的了解目前也還在他的法的修正還在勞動部沒錯 他們已經預告了啦那我們有同步啦 我們有同步好 有同步就好那就是請問大概什麼時候可以給我一個宣傳你們大概打算怎麼對內部的公務人員做宣傳是不是可以兩個禮拜給我一個說明好不好好 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6513.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6522.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
宣傳的方式剛好嘛因為你四月要送出嘛我們四月的時候我們努力來看看怎麼樣做這一部分的事情好那再來就下一個問題還是彈性工時啦因為其實我之前也跟部長來請教過了部長可以先請回了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6529.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6558.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那有關於彈性的工時的部分呢之前其實是有看到說在107年9月3號的時候呢的確有發文通靈各機關必須遵守性工法的一個相關規範那這部分我也是給予肯定但是我也問了一些有育兒的公務人員他們也遇到一個實務的狀況就是說當他需要可能提早一個小時可能不主張減少一小時只是希望可以提早上班就是這個彈性工時的部分讓他可以早點去接小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6558.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6584.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是還是會遇到這些機關可能在人事單位這邊就陣亡了那有些單位可能就非常的支持所以我覺得這個就存在了一個差異那當然我也理解每個工作每個部會可能都會有不同的狀況因為勞動部這邊也有類似的問題可是勞動部還是想辦法怎麼樣來鼓勵我們的企業來做這件事情所以我也是在想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6585.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6601.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
部長是人事專家啦在這個部分上面我們是不是也可以提出更好的鼓勵方案因為像是前陣子台北市蔣萬安市長有提出讓家長提早一小時下班可是這件事情並不適用公務人員所以呢不曉得說部長對這件事情的一個看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6602.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6617.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我是蠻覺得彈性工齒是可以創造友善的工作環境一個很好的一個方法布裡面就我們實施的彈性工齒就非常Range非常非常大但是各機關真的差異我完全了解但是我們的法規沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6618.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6635.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
絕對可以做那事實上就是機關要不要做機關怎麼做那這個部分以台灣的分工來講我會跟主要都是在人事總署在比較他比較負責就是說去做宣導去做一些指引他那邊會比我們這邊來的更有效這部分我來跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6639.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6657.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
總署的同仁呢在談談說有什麼方式也可以跟機關講因為機關有疑慮啦主要是機關有疑慮用人機關疑慮怎麼樣說怎麼樣做法也許可以減少他們的疑慮那大家鼓勵來做這次COVID-19的時候就要努力來做但是19完以後就大家要回復比較多回復原來的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6658.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6678.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以我想這部分還是希望積極的來鼓勵啦因為我這次去澳洲我也醒悟了他們的公務體系啦那他們公務體系也提出了非常多不同的這種彈性工作或是遠距工作或各種的方式來去提供他們的公務人員可以怎麼樣工作跟家庭兼顧所以這個部分我想也是需要部長一起來努力那我也希望就是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6678.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6695.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
其實秘書署長剛剛就像我們剛剛一直在講的就是有數據才有真相所以我也希望說我們提供的一些講座方案也是可以延續我們這個行政決策的一個概念來繼續執行那這個部分的話可能後續我也會再跟部長約時間來討論好謝謝謝謝部長那接下來抱歉還有一題考積法考積法 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6702.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6720.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
部長又請你回來了就是說今年在一月份的時候有民眾在公共政策的網路參與平台有提到一個檢討公務人員考機法那其實今天有非常多的委員都討論到了這一點因為這件事情其實在基層公務人員的反應是非常非常的應該說表達意見非常踴躍在兩個禮拜就達成了連署的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6723.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6749.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那我自己在上網看的時候呢其實大家對於幾個議題非常有意見第一個就是考機的比例僵化難以反應實際的工作表現那甚至你也可以看到上面我截圖的這些留言大家一直其實都會提到輪流輪到一等這樣子那我剛剛也有聽到就是說部長的一些回應就是說未來我們不會再有甲乙丙丁制然後我們可能會有一個比較頂尖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6750.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6756.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個拔尖的概念那我想可能會是一個比較像是統計學的左偽分布的一個概念那 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6758.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6787.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
目前呢 我知道我們已經有一些講就是篩選出什麼模範公務人員啊但是這個是非常非常頂尖我們體制上的確是有的但是我們是不是有可能可以把它分布在一個比較是像這樣子的一個像我圖表上面這樣子的一個建議就是不要到那種就是在秤值之間跟非常頂尖之間有一個頂尖的因為這樣才有更多的人可以被選到這個位置不曉得您的看法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6788.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6791.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
其實我們的概念會比較像這張圖但是不會這麼複雜跟你們的圖是比較像是這一張圖嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6798.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6823.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
比較像是這一我不會設定比例好的應該我要講我不設定比例但是會比較像是以我對公務實際的了解絕大部分的同仁都是稱職的公務同仁他們就是被教辦工作努力工作也把該做的事情做好那我們就認為他就是一個很稱職的公務人但是確實有些很少數的同仁真的表現更好那我們就會放到那個就是我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6824.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6851.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
要著重的是這邊如果同仁真的不符合我們法律有規定一些我們未來規定會說哪些事項哪些新聞你不可以有工作新聞如果你真的有這個東西你會放在就是未打良好我想我們大表演的方式我想這張圖的概念其實是說因為我們可能大部分我也相信大部分的公務人員都是非常的認真那現在我們的體制上面如果你只有非常優秀的那種模範的機制的話就會讓很多的人其實他的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6852.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6877.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
其實可能已經超越頂尖了已經超越秤值了可是他沒有辦法到這種拔尖的狀態的時候這個是兩個不同的概念我們那個模範公務人員跟工作考機是不一樣的沒錯沒錯就是希望說我們是可以有一個我們這兩個是區隔的對對對就是區隔的部分那再來就是說我想針對於一些待觀察或是您剛剛講說比較有狀況的一些公務人員的話比較需要一些輔導的話我們是不是可以有具體的輔導或是考核的機制來幫助他們前進呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6879.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6896.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們希望未來如果任何一個機關要打同仁落入到這個未打良好這個category他平常就要有一些很好的這個譬如像說紀錄觀察甚至覺得他不好其中就要給他有一些比較改善的一個機會那我想是一定會有這個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6898.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6915.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那我想在問這個問題的同時我也想請教因為公務人員考積法我知道已經在討論當中那有沒有可能在這個會期就送到立法院來我們會以這個為努力的目標好那最後一題那我們再請秘書長抱歉謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6920.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6934.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那就是說牧師長想請教一下因為在2025年的時候我們完成了公務人員保障法的修法正式將公務人員的職場霸凌處理機制納入母法那後續呢保訓會會依據母法修訂公務人員的執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6936.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6963.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那但是呢我們在看到職安法或者性公法相比的時候我們目前公務體系的相關保護措施還是放在執法的一個層級那目前我們其實也缺乏了一個明確的法律規範我們只有寫到具體有效措施跟其他的法規都明確定義處理過程的權利義務其實是有差別的那如果我們今天從法制的角度來看根據中央標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6964.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6986.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
中央法規標準法的第五條人民的權利義務事項都應該以法律來定之所以說當公共機關在職場霸凌時應該要採取哪些的保護措施或是相關權利義務因為牽扯到當事人的權利跟義務所以應該要採取法律所謂的利事原則才對所以我在想我們是不是有可能來在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6988.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7005.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
在這個涉及人身安全的職場霸凌案件之中把機關應採取之保護措施以法律明確列舉來避免各機關認定不一甚至消極處理的這個一個問題我們是不是有可能來做這樣子的研議呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7010.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7021.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們保障法跟安慰辦法的這個架構如果你從法律的那個層次來看好像跟治安法的結構不一樣不過我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7021.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7044.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
即便他部分是在比如說安慰辦法裡面我想對各機關的指引跟拘束的效果還是一樣強因為最主要公部門的同仁大家都會依照規定比較不會有違法的狀況那規範的細節上面如果有沒有不明確這個部分我想請主委這邊來幫忙說明好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7047.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7072.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
跟委員報告就是您剛提到那個問題那因為這個保障法19條它其實是在民國92年的時候新增的所以呢對於這個安慰辦法的這個授權法源在那邊那因為它這個涉及到有關於法律的一個執行的細節或是執行面相關的部分就授權放在這個安慰辦法但是委員您剛非常關切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7073.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7080.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
關於這個公務人員的權利義務的這個部分包含這個職場霸凌的定義然後呢它的一個具體採取這次有關於那個採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7085.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7104.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
或者是他的一個行政罰款相關的這個法律違反效果等等這些您最關心的議題其實他都是放在保障法裡面那這是跟委員檢要報告這樣那第二個部分就是涉及到就是說誠如我們剛剛秘書長所講您關心的這些部分在現在兩部一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7105.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7119.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
就是在保障法跟安慰辦法裡面它其實是搭配得非常好那目前我們也有去蒐集這個各機關還有這個相關的申訴人他們的就一些看法就是那目前都沒有人反映說 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7121.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7150.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
需要再把它放到法律裡面因為目前整個保障法已經是104條了所以它已經很大但是呢委員您所提的這個關切的部分我們在這個未來還有現在我們也會持續的繼續去滾動如果有必要把它放到這個法律裡面我們也會這個去進行這樣子的一個研議那我想就是我還是希望可以去研議一下那是不是三個月之後給我一個研議的報告好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7151.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7152.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
接下來我們有請羅志強委員發言我們私委會沒有羅委員常來的時候感覺到好像特別的冷清今天您來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7173.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7174.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有請我們考試院秘書長 劉建興還有群術部長 司部長請秘書長還有司部長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7188.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7191.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
台灣公職報考數大減10萬,公部門運作亮紅燈,正讓國家走向惡性循環。 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7207.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7235.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
當公職的榮譽感消失只剩血汗與過勞誰還想當公務員無人意識到嚴重性全民將付出代價這是一場無聲的集體告別在座有很多的公務員的我們的夥伴那事實上旅長也知道我曾經說過我自己也是第一份工作是公務員當兵退伍以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7236.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7261.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
通過高考在公家機關住過兩年所以我非常非常能夠體會這個時代的差別就是以前當公務員跟現在當公務員我覺得那個榮譽感我覺得是有很大的不一樣當時社會或是政府的國家的政策對公務員是非常在乎尊重跟禮遇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7261.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7288.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
但這幾年我覺得有些東西是改變了好 那我就要請教一下這個天下雜誌它特別強調缺工的現象缺工啦 公務員的工啦那學界跟媒體也都一直在指出這個問題的嚴重性那我想請問現在公務員離退跟缺額的狀況如何你認為嚴重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7290.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7291.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7293.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7320.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
離退的問題我覺得它跟那個制度設計有關這個先不談但是缺工的部分我覺得它的確在某些部分某些特定的領域尤其是它會反映在特定的區域上面會變得的確非常的嚴重那就這一點所以我們也一直在跟行政院這邊討論因為從教考訓用到流採好幾個面向不是完全考試院決策的範圍那這裡面有大家都一起來努力就怎麼樣可以來提升其實我們有一些工作圈在推動相關的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7321.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7339.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
基本上我看到了很多數字我個人是覺得相當嚴重那以2024年公務員的辭職3094人退休9758人人數跟占比都創五年新高我不知道去年的數字狀況如何 有改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7343.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7366.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
根文報這應該是去年2024年的一個狀況2025年的數字應該還沒有出來因為現在才3月份那你覺得呢 以部長你現在有改善嗎退休的部分一定會增加因為我們有追60歲的我知道我知道 是退休我先放的我又要問辭職辭職的部分我想差不多可能在那個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7368.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7390.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是數字真的還沒出來除了說今天辭職退休離退的人數佔比創新高報考人數當然我們已經談很久了也是一直在下跌大幅的減少那其中根據統計中央部會缺額率最高包括外交部、陸委會、訴發部、行政院、院本部都名列前茅 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7391.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7417.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
為什麼這些部會會特別我確實看了那個報告那我可以講說他的那個算法跟實務上真的有落差就分子分母的算法跟實務上的落差用我們比較精確技術上講他真的高估蠻多的高估蠻多的那我現在問嘛中央部會如果說他說的這幾個部會不是缺額率最高那哪些部會會比較高實際上這部分總署負責並不是那個總署負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7421.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7450.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
其實我覺得報告裡面有點到一些問題也是我在了解確實在我們的公務體系當中很多公務員面臨到的問題包括業務膨脹但待遇不夠那缺二率攀高工作量變大這是惡性循環嘛然後接下來公務體系如果開始淪為血汗工廠大家更不敢去那另外剛剛我看前面秘書長也在備詢的時候也提到一件事就是說公務人員的考試跟一般民間是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7450.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7479.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你光備考的那個所謂的成本就非常的高所以當你的所謂的民間的公司跟公務員現在能夠提供的保障大家覺得差別不大或是甚至相對來講限制更多的時候那為什麼要花那麼多時間去準備這公務員的考試呢所以這中間就是出現一個我覺得很大的一個落差那這落差我覺得政府事實上我覺得最大責任還是在我們的中央政府手上啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7479.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7495.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
你的考試的政策你的所謂的全序的政策你的所謂人事的政策如果沒有辦法提供足夠的誘因的話就像剛剛部長講秘書長講的說要想要減科來去減少他們進入的門檻可是我就要問一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7496.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7513.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那以前其實所謂的考試的門檻相對高的時候並沒有影響公務人員的報考的意願那為什麼現在要用到說檢科的方式降低他的所謂的時間成本來增加意願他會顯現現在時代上一個很嚴重的差別嗎Misra你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7515.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7532.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我覺得比較大的差別可能就是說民間的薪資水準跟民間求職的機會多不多當這個都比較高的時候公部門這邊就沒有那麼高的誘因我們看到某些時候就是說當民間大家年輕人覺得求職比較困難他可能會有來報考也許就試一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7533.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7548.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
但是那個而且在我們上一代的時候大家也覺得說公務員是真的比較有保障那是因為民間沒有那麼多誘因跟這個蓬勃發展的機會其實這一點我覺得民主黨我有點保留啦至少我自己在報告公務員的年代那時候也稱之為台灣經濟起飛年代啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7549.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7573.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以民間其實還是工作非常熱門的但是公務員報考那個政府機關工作他有一部分還是基於榮譽感他覺得做這個工作覺得是為國效力是也受到國家的尊重但是我覺得這幾年我覺得文官的所謂尊嚴跟自信心是受到一些衝擊我現在引一些東西我覺得希望我們考試院我們考試院是文官最大的後盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7574.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7596.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那媒體的一些報導,我覺得你們也是參考一下,他說政治人為博聲量,廣開議題戰場,讓公務員忙得不可開交那社群時代加速輿論發酵速度,又讓文官體制淪為回應的螺絲釘那裡面直接點名行政院秘書長張敦涵,說一上任要求各部會照三餐,回報於情 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7597.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7612.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
結果公務體系被迫化身成社群小編然後整天清早然後24小時要開始去分類收集輿情然後變成小編在粉專發文那這個現象我說真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7613.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7638.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
當然跟現在時代改變有關係啦可是你怎麼樣讓公務員今天能夠不是負擔那麼重的所謂的政府的內宣或外宣的工作能夠專注在自己本務上的一個所謂的經營創造一個好的環境我這需要考試院跟行政院去多去磋商去努力去保護我們工作我們公務員的工作跟尊嚴以上謝謝委員意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7642.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7648.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
主席在正式開始前先跟主席做個詢問跟建議我看到我們那個考試院業務報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7670.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7690.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
蓋礦報告及立法計劃那因為呢我們的憲法體制五院是平等的那因為立法院向行政院向立法院負責所以我們司法法治委員會只要是行政院的部會來當然是用蓋礦報告跟做立法的一個報告但是因為考試院跟我們是平行單位是否考慮考慮說以後這個業務報告變成介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7693.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7714.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
他跟我們介紹業務然後他是跟我們對立法計畫的說明啦因為畢竟我們今天不是在對他們進行質詢我們是在因為我們要了解立法所以需要他們來幫我們做個說明只是一個建議啦可以參考我想我們這個部分之後跟主秘我們這邊再來討論一下因為這好像也是行之多年的慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7715.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7735.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
其實我在當召委的時候我有注意不過沒關係 這個我們尊重召委也希望司法法制委員會能夠考量一下因為五院是平等的好 那我們就來邀請我們的這個劉秘書長還有施部長還有這個蔡主任委員來幫我們做個介紹我們了解你們的立法計畫委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7738.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7746.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好 秘書長好 部長好 主委好請教一下秘書長今年是馬年嘛馬有很多種馬嘛 今年是哪一種馬下一頁是丙午馬嘛 對不對丙午嘛齁 丙午馬年那你有沒有聽過甲午有嗎齁你覺得甲午比較好還是丙午比較好甲比較好還是丙比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7760.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7776.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
沒有差別啊 天干地支嘛我小時候的學校很小我國小只有四個班啊我是念丙班的啊那甲班的同學是不是比我好也沒有啊我大學那個考那個選擇題ABCDEABCDE哪一個答案最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7778.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7792.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
也沒有A比較好啊 都填A嗎對不對更何況我家隔壁鄰居的孩子他念醫學系我是念歷史系我就跟媽媽說媽媽他醫學系沒有了不起他是丙組的我是乙組的好歹還贏他一個組有沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7794.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7814.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
沒有道理嘛所以不管ABCD加一餅它根本不是一個什麼高下的順序嘛小時候我們拿國小成績單我拿到什麼我拿到算數優國語良體育可勞作劣那是不是很清楚表達我的能力那請問我們公務人員的考機怎麼表達來下一頁聽到乙等炸鍋啊乙不好嗎我是乙組的欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7823.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7849.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
民主黨 了解我的意思齁你們的考計法是不是要改變一下真實的去反映工人員的表現有嗎 可以考慮一下嗎是 這個也是我們要處理的重點謝謝 謝謝我想我是說因為文組的比較咬文嚼字啦齁我們請教一個問題齁台中地院一等懲處結果炸鍋是被懲處人炸鍋嗎 不是啦是被懲處的這個被一等的懲處他是怎樣詐騙犯 判刑 忘了執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7851.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7873.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
還被監察院糾正結果回到機關懲處考慮疑等你知道誰不服嗎跟這一個司法官同時期考慮疑等的司法官都不服啊他這樣都疑等 那我疑等算什麼民主黨你會不會覺得這樣好像有點不公平你也知道我們公會機關有沒有輪流刺激的部分有嘛 有些機關叫做交互吞掉你有沒有聽過交互吞掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7874.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7900.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
因為我們的比例嘛就是最差的那兩個人只有一定要有一個是乙等嘛所以今年我明年你我們就交互蹲跳嘛那會不會影響到我的機關調動升遷我們有啊我們都常常我在地方政府當副首長的時候常常要調動升遷過去三年不能有兩年以上考慮乙等嘛那我交互蹲跳我搞不好那三年或兩年是蹲乙那我就不能做啦有沒有這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7901.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7910.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
民長你都了解嗎所以我今天呢聽你們的這個業務的介紹我也很好奇說你們的修法計畫怎麼樣來吸引優秀的人你們修法計畫打算怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7912.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7937.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
請部長來說明部長好來各位委員報告那個方向這樣大概您剛剛提的東西我們都不會做就不會去往那個方向走所以往好的方向好那我們好的方向來我們目前就是會用什麼優良可略這類的方式比較會我們大概會用三個概念就是分成三個也不會固定比例也不會固定比例很好那你們有沒有考慮過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
7938.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
7963.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
好的跟普通的考機獎金只差0.5個月這個會不會調整這個也都在討論的範圍是我們來看一下來我們最近棒球熱狼如果說我現在職棒球員啊打全壘打拿勝投拿MVP奪冠貢獻程度不同嘛如果說職棒球員說來中下平均球員有上場的一律激勵金100塊如果K出的全壘打多200塊我會去爭取打全壘打嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
7967.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
7970.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
你會覺得這樣的一個差距不足以激勵公務員的士氣差距這麼小有沒有可能有多一點把它差距拉大讓他感受有一點比較強烈應該這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
7989.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8004.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
老師我先講這個前一陣子我們考試院通過一個激勵辦法我們先希望用激勵辦法平時讓主管就有經費對於表現好的公務同仁隨時就可以不要只用年終的考機獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8005.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8030.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我們應該走這兩個方式一起來處理這樣才是一個比較完整即使獎勵比那個年終耶但年終我們一樣會處理這個部分所以你們包括我這邊寫的取消了甲等的三就是網路平台嘛對不對第二個有人提議說把這個機率呢擴大或者說經常秘書長這是代表我們考試院希望我們立法院在修法的時候能夠支持這樣的看法這是你們大院的態度嗎秘書長剛剛部長所做的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8034.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8047.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
其實我們為什麼前面是先跟院跟部先做了很多次的討論就是我們希望說院內大概對於改革方向有相當共識那現在就是在跟外部溝通當中外部溝通就是包括我們公務體系很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8049.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8071.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好來我們來看一下希望你們有機會去新加坡看一下新加坡他的積極差異化獎勵制度留住人蠶了你看有做這些有專家組成排序小組分為五個考積的等地不是加一餅丁物是可能是優良可略差什麼之類的常態各地的常態分布前五趴可以拿三個月的底薪那個薪水寫錯了薪要扣你少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8074.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8098.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這個有沒有辦法來參考一下新加坡新加坡工人的待遇是很好的耶有沒有可能往這個方向來調待遇水準的部分他們真的是全世界算是頂尖是啊但這你們管不到啦因為這是主計跟人總啊某些獎勵的概念其實我覺得多數國家的像是對烤雞的評定啦他們都是在獎勵最前面的特殊表現然後肯定中間的那個部分是大多數的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8099.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8126.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那 但是尾巴該注意的人還是要把它找到是 對 最後老鼠你剛剛講了 我後面講了後面要怎麼處理 來像這些啦除了積極攬財之外呢 汰換制度同等重要嘛考紀法第八條嘛什麼之類的人呢非有這種情況不得考慮丁等 丁等就是列啦叫太儲的啦挑撥離間啦 不聽指揮啦嚴當公務啦 平心不端啦很誇張嘛 對不對結果呢 很多這樣的情況之下怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8127.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8149.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
如果不夠誇張還是拿平等 還是拿什麼 殼啊所以到底這些用詞 法律的用詞都很抽象怎麼樣讓公務人員又說警惕最後面這些該汰除的他不會因為這樣的關係在懲處的時候就拿個殼 敘留部長你的看法呢 這些文字內容是不是要量化而不是只用抽象的中文 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8149.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8174.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我跟委員報告我們對於所謂未來一個方式除了講工作考機年度考機我們另外一塊是行為面的行為面就是走專案懲處我們把這些東西事實上都會在專案懲處裡面非常距離化什麼事情碰到機關就要及時處理所以專案懲處後所留下的平時的紀錄在年終考機的時候就可以量化來處理還是會反應好 最後呢 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8174.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8190.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以最後請秘書長跟部長是不是支持我們一個月內提出這些內容那為什麼我請主委上來呢因為我覺得今天部長跟主委都是學界出身我希望你們在提供我這些資料的時候能夠勾結一下在保訓會因為保訓會裡面處理會會有兩種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8193.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8212.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
一種是的確是那種烤雞該很差的他的申訴沒有效一種是呢的確有冤枉的那你們把這兩種情況勾結回他當時機關的原烤雞去對照就能抓出說怎麼樣的烤雞是如實如質的可不可以部長 主委可以協助嗎這是要我們跨部會來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8213.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8234.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對 我想跟委員報告 我想我剛剛已經報告了 部裡面大概下禮拜最晚這個月底我們會正式公告 徵詢意見把我們所有的想法 條文 具體都有報告了我的意思是說還包括去參考我們保訓會去跟他們申訴的 可能有些過當的或不足的你們也都可以主委 表達一下跟委員報告 這沒有問題是好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主委也謝謝秘書長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8244.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8267.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好 謝謝鍾委員 謝謝好 那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言那麼在 我們先做程序宣告待會兒在程培宇委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘好 謝謝 接下來請莊委員發言謝謝莊委 我們請考試院 我們劉建新秘書長請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8272.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8275.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
剛才兩位部長起床 施部長 全序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8276.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8304.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好 請市部長好 委員長市部長 還有部長那我想啊這個本席今天針對考試院推動啊這個國家考試啊電腦化這樣的一個決心來表達這個肯定而且是高度的一個肯定但是呢在這個數位的數位化的浪潮底下那浊江的一個變革確實是一個重大的一個里程碑今年是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8308.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8316.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我覺得很大的感慨,這30年,這個改變真的很大。我30年前,在你們考試院後,律師我那年考到30年前到現在,寫到這樣,整天兩天考到後,手都快麻了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8324.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8346.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
但是這個改革我覺得是對畢竟時代在走那確實是制度要跟上可是我比較擔心就是說有時候政策對但是細節常常是決定它到底是成功還是翻車像國考的電腦化怎麼樣才會做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8353.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8364.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那這個方向我們說是對的啊但是呢為什麼說細節如果沒有做好的話會出很大的一個問題啊你像譬如這一次你們這樣這個磁庫的一個問題啊這當然你說現在你說不開放自建的一個磁庫這個可以理解啦這是為了防避嘛 為了防避啦可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8375.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8387.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這個整個制度變革以後以現在我們這個以前參加過考試的人幾十年後來看這個你會覺得也很好玩的地方因為現在這個私律的一個考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8389.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8412.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
第一階段現在也有選擇體驗,這個在30年前都很難想像的啦第二階段現在就開始說,不然就先來充電腦來做一個硬式那我的問題就是說,我們很擔心這個考試到最後都逼什麼人拍得很快這個很怪,我們當年在考試是怕我們字寫得醜 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8413.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8418.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
建新你做一個電視委員 你跟人家改課程 看了幾分這個字像鬼話壺一樣 那分數還靠掉了 藝生漂亮的人分數比較高我如果是電視委員在打評分的時候 我看那個字看起來舒服我多給他一分兩分 那也很合理啊可是那個考試常常就是 尤其是國家考試是要看那個人的聽度 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8436.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8446.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
到底說他的見解 還是說這個資格裡面這個人程度是不是好的現在這個考試要扶公職現在大家做這種 大家在爬山爬魚比賽這個也怪但問題 我也認為說國家考試 考選的一個制度與時俱進數位化這當然是必經之路啦但是為什麼說 必須要去非常注意的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8463.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8487.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
你也要有一個溫暖的配套啦你現在不開放個人持庫 我認為還好為了防避 可是你也必須要去做一套標準的法律的一個持庫的內建我認為這樣比較合理啦不然到時候大家練俄法律的人 司律考試律師跟司法官到最後要來比輸入的速度 這好奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8488.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8516.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
考到之後去做書要看一天就不用打字嘛做了書他也不用打字嘛他說我們這套制度就是那些你來比速度好怪你有覺得很奇怪嗎跟委員報告我們會限制在傳統的八頁五千兩百字一分鐘頂多四十到五十字考生就可以非常有把握的把那一個這一個八頁裡面的用完所以拼速度沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8517.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8531.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
因為它是有次數限制的所以我的意思我都很擔心這個變革當然你說一定要像以前那樣好像也不對兩天下來真的會烤死人但是現在考生比較焦慮的是你的鍵盤是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8533.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8541.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那滑鼠是什麼?螢幕是什麼?我也沒有看過所以我在本席這個地方就站在一個考生我們這些以前都可能課到還沒叫完的因為簡單的一個要求就是說我們提早在公佈那個設備規格跟型號 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8549.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8554.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我如果做大人的,我孩子要去課的,我就覺得我們買一張單本,買幾千塊,要去那個設備、規格,放回去我們先來適應一下。我認為,你如果沒有讓他先適應的話,這種變革,到最後好像在幹什麼呢?好像那個抽盲盒一樣,我不知道伯父你會看什麼。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8570.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8586.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
跟委員報告 這個我們預計在7月到8月的時候我們會在我們的網站公佈根據每一個學校 就是我們的市場公佈它每一間教室是怎樣的鍵盤跟滑鼠所以考生到時候他一旦知道自己在分配到哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8587.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8614.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
市場他就可以去查閱這第一個第二個我們所用的這些鍵盤跟滑鼠一定都要標準版我們不會有任何奇怪的東西但是我們還是會提供讓他們可以查閱所以你那個規格的設備你不要讓人家知道啊對 就是我們在七八月的時候會在網頁公佈那你剛提到的那個就是說沒有我們的小規模你就說像那個考場那個其實我倒這樣認為啦你有一個有一個模擬的一個機制你現在有線上模擬我怕這樣不夠就是說你像剛才說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8616.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8619.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們有考生實際進入到考場,我一個小規模的,進去給你實體去試打,喔,那筆整個就是這樣,寫下去之後,就像柏中說的,買那個奇怪怪的規格出來, |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8630.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8654.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個就是在講說,數位的轉型,我們要適合考生,那個叫溫度啦!數位轉型,我們這個改革裡面,我們也必須要一個溫度啦!這樣沒問題嗎?這兩行都沒問題嗎?沒有問題,跟委員報告,目前我們是三件事情第一件事情,其實我們上週末已經有140個現在的法律系學生,他們先來試,那我們正在收回饋,再進行微調,這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8655.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8671.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那第二個就是說如委員所說的我們預計也是盡量可以在一個比較適當的時間,是不是在北中南都可以去協調學校來提供那個實際他們可以去適應一下大概這樣的市場長什麼樣子,這是第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8672.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8689.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那第三個就是說我們其實跟委員報告我們這樣的一個小型的實體測驗時間我們還是希望可能會比較抓在一次就是說大概在那個之後因為否則這樣下去現在的時候一方面我們還在調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8689.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8711.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
另一方面也就是比較擔心影響目前的目前要考一次的考生的備考但是我們會提供像委員所說的我們現在在北中南到時候在考試前提供那還有就是我們考試前我們現在在上億我們在第一節開考前拉長他們可以來先來就是適應的時間盡量把它拉長這個秘書長我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8714.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8742.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個對於整個私立考試第二次改採這個電腦的一個硬式喔這是國家考選制度的一個與時俱進的一個重大的一個里程碑啊這你們要衝的好誰啦 這不要開玩笑變成說一個重大的一個改變另外第二個喔 這個部長你請回喔我要來請秘書長就是說剛才我想很多委員會講到那個考機的制度啦這個考機制度喔 真麻煩 你就知道你 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8743.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8757.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這 你也非常清楚啦 之前的就是為什麼大家會比較不去相信這個制度啊就是說 現在你們的考試怎麼分配名額啦新人去買 你看你就等我去買而已啊沒有啊 算很好了啊 甚至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8761.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8788.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
大家乙的人就是輪流像比如說剛剛前面兩位委員我看到他們都提到那個縱放人犯那個部分都被人家罰乙等對不對問題是說如果我們等到去賣我們如果做到要死也要乙等所以這個有時候你去看縱放人犯的乙等做到要死也乙等譬如說我一千塊的乙等如果是75%的要吃等 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8791.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8809.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
就長期讓人家感覺這不是在看表現你就是在框一個比例而已啦你現在說要來取消加等的一個上限不是不可以但是我要提醒的就是說你如果沒有一個配套的話還是會產生一些不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8810.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8822.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
還是會產生一些不公平長期以來 做官的 譬如我做秘書長 應該你不會啦 你例外啦做到官做部長的人 我比較害怕的 比較害怕的 最好就是人之常情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8824.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8844.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
很合理啊 人就是這樣子啊但問題就是說對那些努力的人 你看不見啦有時候擔憂很大的話你也看不見啦有些考試也輪不到你打啦我們只是看那個制度這樣在運作所以長期就會產生這樣的一個不公平所以我倒認為就是說有沒有可能我看現在國防部那個不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8846.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8861.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
國安部現在你看下隊上同儕都要去做一個評分量化多項去做一個評價甚至與聯機校的部分用記錄來講話不要靠印象我這個當長官的我對你印象多好 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8862.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
8866.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那是我對你好,你給我拍馬屁啊,或是說你給我人緣啊,你給我人緣好啊,看起來好啊應該是有落實這樣的一個績效的一個基點的一個制度啦甚至於呢,這有時候做主觀的都要自肥,所以那個點數的一個分配,你給它設一個上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
8883.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
8901.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
讓整個公務人員這樣的一個烤雞的制度讓它變得比較公平一點要不然現在公務人員的一個體系裡面很多人人才進不來然後優秀的又留不住簡單講 秘書長你做一個回應好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
8902.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
8918.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好 謝謝委員我先澄清就是我們不是朝所謂的假等不設上限這種這樣的一個做法因為我們其實是簡單講打掉重練就是我們會設立一個新的架構所以不是用原來的架構去微調這樣的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
8919.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
8943.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那在我們新的法案其實強調就是說你要很明確的要辨識出表現真的非常特殊傑出的人因為他這個年度有重大貢獻例如說在防疫那幾年我們就知道有些人他的對國家對人民有特殊重大貢獻你要給他獎勵那在考機的部分可以反映到最頂尖的部分那另外一部分呢真的有需要這個繼續觀察或者是要檢討的人也要把它辨識出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
8944.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
8966.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那其他的部分我們就不要去複製過去這種所謂的3比1的75%這樣的一個比例因為它就創造出兩種不滿一個是拿到疑等人覺得我跟拿假的人沒有差那麼多或甚至根本就一樣根本就是輪流這種不滿另外一種是說其實表現最頂尖的人會其實跟平均甚至平均值以下一部分的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
8967.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
8993.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
得到一樣的獎勵這個看起來也不合理所以我們希望就是說我們還是回歸到一般常態分貝的那個結構那多數的稱職付出辛勞的同仁都得到一致的獎勵但是我們辨識出最優秀的部分然後可以特殊的獎勵那甚至剛剛部長有講我們也還有我們的獎勵辦法裡面還有平時的即時獎勵就不是考積的部分但即時獎勵也可以去強化這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
8994.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9023.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以我們是把那個結構重新再打破重新架構一次其實考試的公平跟考積的公平這兩樣東西喔這個涉及到整個公務體系的喔這個考試院這個地方其實你們應該可以更加把勁要進來科技要公平合理啊你說考積要公平這也很合理啊2月6日大家也希望可以合理啊這個制度喔到現在這個制度就是說有那個不平啦我不敢說讓大家多失望 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9023.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9044.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
75%你如果站在好的人 多數的人都會說好我站在這裡等我再說你的口氣壞再說你這個制度壞 我一定說你好的但是如果有不公平的話 我們就會發現這個國家就會流失很多人才這個部分我們請考試院再加把勁讓整個制度更完整 更來精進 好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝鍾委員接下來我們請陳佩玉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9055.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9079.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請全序部 施部長好 請施部長好 施部長早安有一件事情要先謝謝您來下一張我們在今年一月的時候呢有快速跟您討論關於這個公務人員媒合機制的平台的事情謝謝你們非常快速迅速地做了回應而且我知道你們跟任總有做一個方案跟規劃 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9081.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9098.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
對也謝謝任總因為這還是要透過他的平台是是是那因為他今天沒有在被主席邀請出席的名單不過我還是把相關問題提回去還是要拜託全序部持續跟任總討論怎麼說呢因為當時裡面我們提到一個非常重要的事情是新上任剛考上這些公務員他們可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9099.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9128.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
大概有百分之二十到二十五是选择就不到任就放弃了选择重考当时我们就有考虑过是不是因为他们被分发的地方可能是离他们的家乡太远离他们现在的家庭社区太远所以我们当时会跟任总还有全序部提出这个建议主要还有一个部分是针对这个新考上的公务员可是我们现在看到你们跟任总设计出了这个平台我们问了任总他说因为尚未具有公务人员任用资格非属申签法第三条之适用之对象 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9129.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9151.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
好那問題就剛好出現在法規範跟我們有心想要完成促進的這個平台之間剛好有這個法規上的空缺我不會說是漏洞是空缺因為確實這些剛考上的人他沒有報到他在法理上他就不是所謂的公務員那我們想了一想我們想要請教一下施部長實務上我們可以怎麼幫助這些公務員來下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9153.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9182.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們在想說如果這百分之二十幾的人他們因為沒有報到因為他們可能看到自己被分發的地方不是他們要去的他們就選擇不報到那我們到底要怎麼解決我們試著在像現行的法規裡面找到一個可能性也想跟全序部討論看看下一張目前在公務人員考試及格人員分發辦法裡面第十一條有講到這個考試及格的分發辦法相關這三條都沒有我們都沒有什麼問題但是我們在想如果讓高 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9182.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9206.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
高普考及格的人也可以准用這個公務人員互調交流平台的機制有沒有辦法在這個分發辦法裡面加上第四條第四款呢就叫做讓高普考及格的人也可以用有沒有這個可能當然我都說需要討論我們只是先提出我們因為之前的問題是我們提出的嘛那謝謝你們進一步做了平台可是這些考上及格的人他可能分發報到 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9208.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9236.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
他發現地點不是他要去的所以他可能就還是沒有來因為在你們的平台裡面說這些人不適用所以我把這個問題再提出來部長你不用現在回答我我知道我只是要拜託你們這真的是一個tough的question我們一起努力好不好謝謝部長那就拜託那我們辦公室也會再把相關資料提交給全庶部跟人總拜託你們持續協助我們一起解決這些優秀的年輕公務員可以報到而且是他們想去的地方然後代表我們公務機關其實是有誠意的好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9236.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9259.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我想後續有些需要的時候再跟委員互動討論好 那兩個月內會不會太趕我覺得這個事情可能涉及到很嚴肅的法律那沒關係 我們時間就先不壓我的意思是說是不是隨時 如果需要的話我們隨時保持討論好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 部長請回 謝謝那我們一起努力 感謝接下來有請保訓會蔡主委 謝謝確實是很難的問題 部長 沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9266.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9287.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
主委有一件事要跟您討論一下是我們現在在服務現場實際遇到的困境所以我們需要跟您討論就法規上的解讀來下一張我們服務在馬祖那馬祖現在有一個北甘鄉的衛生所醫師請注意他是公費醫師回鄉服務那他在服務的期間呢兩三年期間持續受到霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9288.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9315.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那他呢就向衛生局他是誰霸凌他是衛生局的局長霸凌他那衛生局的上層機關當然就是連江縣政府嘛他就去跟連江縣政府申請說他被霸凌然後他需要協助這樣結果連江縣政府跟他說啊你是衛生所的醫師你現在要被申訴的這個人是衛生局的局長那衛生所跟衛生局不是同一個單位所以連江縣政府不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9316.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9334.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
他這樣說完之後他還打電話給這個醫師說我們問過保訓會了保訓會說你們是不同單位所以不用受理而且還說不會用公文來回覆這個被霸凌的醫師我覺得很莫名其妙我們在處理這個事情的時候他們就莫名其妙把保訓會拉出來了我們認真研究了法規之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9335.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9355.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們發現保訓會應該要有一些角色但會不會是連江縣政府胡假虎威假借保訓會的名義說不關縣政府的事情所以我們研究了一下所以我想要請教一下主委幾個問題第一個衛生局跟衛生所是不同單位所以我們無法受理這個說法成立嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9356.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9365.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
跟委員報告如果從法治於上面原來的那個我們的保障法他其實是focus在這個同一機關但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9367.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9396.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
由於在整個的食物運作上面那衛生所的主任他當然是受衛生局局長的業務指揮然後呢甚至於連他的烤雞然後呢業務交辦等等所以在我們的解釋上面我們把它視同是同一機關所以這個當然連江縣政府他回覆說您剛有提到說是連江縣政府來問我們保訓會他跟我們說我們有打 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9397.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9414.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
電話給保訊會他我猜想他會不會連公文都沒有發給你們保訊會他至於等一下而且我要幫他多說一句他搞不好有沒有打我都打一個問號喔是這個我請我們的那個安慰處處長比較清楚他他有來過有嗎連江縣政府有問你們這個事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9416.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9433.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
跟委員報告 連江縣政府已經行文來 穩了什麼時候 行文 什麼時候行文 應該是上個禮拜的上個禮拜 那我告訴你這個事情已經持續快兩年了所以他被我們追到不行 他們現在來跟你們求救我要說連江縣政府真的很糟糕這個被申訴的衛生局局長真的很糟糕 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9434.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9450.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
不是你們的問題好 所以謝謝你們那你們收到公文之後你們就要回覆他們對不對會 當然好 那我要說如果按照主委你剛剛的解釋他其實在法理上你們會認定他是同一個單位那既然他是同一個單位他是不是就應該要受理相關的霸凌案是 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9451.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9466.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
他就是跟連江縣政府去連江縣政府是他的上級機關是好太好了那我們會持續追蹤最後跟您請教一個問題這一位公費醫師他在法律身份上算不算公務人員保障法裡面所保障的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9467.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9490.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
算算是拜託再大聲一點算算我會去告訴連江縣政府保訓會主委告訴大家這位公費醫師是屬於公務人員保障法裡面要保障的公務人員好如果是這樣現在如果用公務人員職場霸凌處理指引他們的法定申訴管道應該向誰提出我可以回答說他應該還是要向連江縣政府直接提出對嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9492.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9509.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好 太好了如果後續我們在處理上有相關的爭議跟問題我們辦公室會再持續協助這位公費醫師因為我要強調他是一位非常年輕的公費醫師他之所以到北甘鄉市那是他的家鄉他自願請調回家鄉做公費醫師的服務而且他告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9509.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9537.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
他還想繼續留在那裡他還想留在家鄉我要說公費醫師現在有多麼的珍貴而這個年輕醫師卻因為這個霸凌案被連江縣政府衛生局跟連江縣政府不當對待我們會持續追蹤後續在相關法規上也需要保訓會協助我們好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好我們就依先前的程序已經做了宣告我們就現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9562.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9565.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝收看,下次見! |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9568.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9579.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對 但是後來在podcast的時候我就直接說你好是張曉筠 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9598.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9605.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
他說病入膏孔保险器怪多一點我印象對我就是就是很懲罰很懲罰的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9637.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9653.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
有啊,有啊,有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9677.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9677.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
現在就是你看這個風的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9713.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9718.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9720.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9722.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
謝謝觀看,下次見! |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9748.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9749.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9758.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9769.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
就是那種協商不得協商的方式對對象的理解跟訪問是不太一樣的我們原先對象的協商是針對國安實現的那種國安實現是以前就有的但是那是修好現在的國家是比較好學的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9782.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9792.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那裡都比較像古牌子所以我們就要加一個圓圓那所以我們就說如果有的形容的那個機關就是一個圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓圓 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9798.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9817.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對,對,對對,對,對 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9818.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
9833.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
他後來就把他修輯了並且我們把他修輯深層點一個前面就是說跟國家安全有關的事項他已經破了這句話以後你再重新什麼什麼就有了這個東西涉及安全的事項他不得不講 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
9842.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
9856.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
所以其實這是屬於社安對 因為是個人安全不是個人安全 工作安全 屬於社安的問題是不簡單的問題可是那一部分如果你確定它會有經驗那個經驗比如說我現在正在做什麼東西要有不分的經驗可是你看 直接的有不分的經驗還是不分的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
9882.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
9883.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
蜜桃 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
9890.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
9891.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
謝謝大家收看,下次見! |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
9916.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
9940.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會那接下來就有請徐宇甄委員謝謝主席 是我們現在請考試院秘書長 考選部長及全序部長好 請秘書長還有兩位部長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
9944.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
9961.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
早 兩位部長早MU長我想請教一下就是我國的這個學子報考國考的人數逐年的下滑那從考選部的資料顯示報考高普考的人數從105年的95,062人報考到114年只剩下57,707人MU長您對於報考人數的這個下降的趨勢您怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
9972.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
9992.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我們了解這個狀況當然也會很重視這個事情那如何重視呢其實我們就針對這個國考人數下降的部分我們覺得就是說第一個就是考試如果剛剛有講過考試真的讓硬職者付出很大的求職成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
9993.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10008.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那我們現在面對民間的人才的需求的競爭的確是處於比較不利的局面所以第一個我想就考試的怎麼樣更友善一點那我們就在推動高補考檢科降低這個考試的障礙因為考生其實為了要考考試都要去補習班都要花很多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10009.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10033.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那第二個部分就是說我們也就只等調高的部分那個其實全局部都有在逐步的通盤檢討啦那其實最主要還是說哪些不足而入取的類科是最需要去緊急搶救的部分這個部分我們都有在跟行政院的相關部門組成工作圈來做各個面向的其實我想考試的你說科目減少事實上過去啦過去要報考這個國考其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10036.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10050.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這個更為困難啦所以但是大家還是爭相的來去也報考我們的這個國家考試就是因為以前大家都認為公務人員就是金飯碗那有很好的保障那現在就是覺得相較於民間的這個公司我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10051.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10079.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
退休之後的保障呢縮減了很多所以讓他們不願意來報考國考才是我覺得才是最重要的原因所以針對應屆畢業生報考的部分就107年還有一萬六千多名的新生新鮮人報考但113年只剩下三千元只剩下三千人那請問一下114年應屆畢業生有多少人報考這個我請柔部長來說是請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10080.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10099.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
就114年的應屆畢業生報考的不好意思 應屆畢業生我可能還要再查一下因為到去年就只剩3000人所以今年的應屆畢業生報考的可能相對更少喔那所以這個部分可能是不是再麻煩部長給本席辦公室相關的資料因為我這邊要陳述的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10100.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10121.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
卡西文部當然有提到說報考的人數減少是因為少子化還有現在外面的景氣好但是為什麼是在108年會出現斷崖式的下跌是不是因為107年年改上路之後所以造成這個讓年輕人看到政府帶頭毀約的這個負面示範所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10121.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10143.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
大學的畢業生才不願意報考公務員我跟委員報告就是說如果我們觀察考生人數變化看得久一點的話最高峰大概出現在民國一百年那前後三年那之後就急劇的下降我想跟當時的這個民間年輕人的薪資跟求職的困難產業西進有一些跟多少都有些關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10145.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10171.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那您剛剛講是不是年改的因素我要講的就是說大概從101年開始它就急劇的下滑那一直到106年但是年改的因素一定也佔了很大一個部分它有沒有影響 對所以我說應該說我覺得不報考的原因有很多那您說其實就待遇面我覺得那個都是相對應它跟民間的時間的吸引力我想我們現在針對這個報考人數的這個報考人數的逐年下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10171.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10191.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們應該要提出一個務實的方法 除了您剛剛講的說這個報告科目 我覺得報告科目減少其實不是主要的原因 而是要怎麼增加他身為公務員的薪資待遇還有他的優越感讓他願意來為國家報效 而不是只是看這個薪資的部分我覺得這個部分才是應該我們要探討的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10192.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10209.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那當然在這邊也要特別的再請教一下我們的這個全旭部長部長我們現在就是要修改考積法的這個上限嘛那因為您也曾經講過現在的考積法已經沒有獎勵效果所以你們現在想要修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10209.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10225.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
不過以往我們的考機大概就是說真的很多單位都是照分配的輪著輪著你今年假等你明年已等但是呢因為這樣的關係就讓很多想要就是認真優秀的公務人員他覺得也可能我表現再好 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10225.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10242.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
每年也是有機會會輪到一等而不是都是假等所以您現在說放寬假等的一個這樣的上限可是現在看起來如果假設到時候一些長官都不願意當壞人然後全部都假等的話那要怎麼來去杜絕這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10244.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10272.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
委員講的都是正確的就是說我們怎麼修法本身最後到還是事實性面但是我們在修法過程裡面可以減少我們不想要發生的事情所以我們的方向就是不要再用甲乙丙丁這樣一個很僵化的一個方式我們就基本上未來就是會請主管處理注意兩個部分一個是真的很好的同仁一定要把他找出來那如果真的工作表現不好你要把他找出來那其他呢大家就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10273.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10299.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
秤值表現工作良好大概是用這個方式那因為會不會有那種就是大家知道說反正都是主管在打烤雞的所以我就要去巴結主管讓他們給你這樣子的這個官場維諾的這樣子的一個工具呢我想是不會有這樣的一個當然我的意思是說打烤雞本身就很難完全科學化但是它是有管理的措施但是我們的制度設計會讓譬如像說未來是以條件說 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10300.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10328.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
就是說你一定要符合某一個條件核實你才可以打那個等次所以全序部這邊其實已經針對這個部分做好這樣子的一個對我們準備當然下禮拜就開始要徵詢正式徵詢機關跟公務人員的意見那大概什麼時候會送到本院來如果可以大家有一個共識的話我還是要講如果我們徵詢過程裡面大家還有覺得我們的方案不夠好我們就當然還要再討論我們不希望送出一個大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10329.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10344.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
意見很多了但是如果大家覺得我們剛剛那個想法是可以走的那順利的話我們會以這個會計為努力的目標我們的考期是能夠對於我們真正優秀的公務人員給他們一個鼓勵跟獎勵而不是為了打而打 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10345.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10368.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
而且我們平常也有 我們這次討論的過程裡面希望就是說我們剛修過我們是要大家另外善用平時的激勵獎勵的一個制度因為我想委員也有很多行政經驗知道有時候不是只有年終的時候給一個獎勵現在平常的時候就應該有一個機制給主管有這個機制獎勵這個同仁我想我們是希望有更多元的方式來處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10370.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10394.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好 謝謝部長然後另外呢 我要再請教的就是我們根據 你們可以看一下我們公務體系的人才流失的現況從109年到113年公務員離職的人數大量的流失大概總共累積了一萬兩千五百零三人那當然很多的原因是 有的人說他是請辭的最大原因當然都是個人因素啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10395.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10423.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那其中有高達43%的人坦言是因為另有他就這是不是代表政府所提供的這個待遇跟職涯全景已經全面落後於民間企業呢這個部分老師我們部裡面的一個統計表因為原因太大類的沒有很細的一個規範我沒有辦法回答但是我從另外一個角度跟委員報告另有他就有可能他就重新再考試因為我剛剛有報告說我們有大概有兩成的人又重新考回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10424.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10442.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
換別的單位就對了所以這個原因我們沒有太細究我覺得要去探究他真正離職的原因你才能夠根本的解決我們也嘗試想要提供一個新的調查表同仁如果真的在辭職的時候我們請他能夠回答他為什麼辭職我們有嘗試再做新的一個調查表 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10447.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10460.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
然後另外就是再請教一下就是請我們的這個公務體系的初等考試五等的公務員其實起薪扣完公保退府實領薪水跟其實跟基本公司其實差不多那過去長輩都說工職是鐵飯碗嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10463.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10473.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
現在已經好像有點生鏽所以我們可以看一下在這個台灣公務員的人事費的支出在OECD國家的排行平均是9% 我們是5.9%所以呢 其實我們是在末段班 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10477.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10494.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
而且過去十年來這個比例也下滑了1.8%那部長請問一下這反映的是台灣政府對於人才投資呢令於投資過於吝嗇還是說這就是一種變相的國家級的血汗呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10495.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10523.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我跟委員報告比較各國的人事費用這個是很危險的一件事情佔比因為每一個國家的GDP或者什麼都不一樣我覺得應該是自己的國家長期來看那我們過去十年來比例也下滑了1.8%那跟我們分母有關因為人事費佔總之是有比例會跟我們分母多少有關我覺得比較好的指標是我們的平均年所得到底有沒有變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10524.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10545.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那這個部分確實我們平均年所得實質上公務體系的平均年所得都在增加中因為我們不斷調薪那也許是說這個部分就某些特定領域的人還比不上民間企業我想現在目前應該就是這樣的一個狀況但是並不是全面性啦我知道我知道像比如說像剛剛講一些工程師他可能在別的地方還有這個他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10546.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10568.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
他的證照還可以加急所以針對這個部分我覺得應該是要通盤的來考慮真正的讓有能力的人願意進入到國家體系這個新世代的部分在權責上是有行政院主管是好 那再麻煩各位我們針對公務人員我們讓他們有更多的尊嚴跟願意進來我們國家服務當然 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10574.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10578.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
然後接下來我們就請陳冠廷委員發言你好 我們請部長請問請哪位部長 施部長嗎請施部長 請施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10604.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10631.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
各位好你好部長好部長我想請教一個我們過去他反應過但是至今我們地方還沒有這個改善的問題那這是跟建築法第34條規定就是鄉鎮共所合八的這個建築之道的審查人員那這些人員的話必須要有三年以上的工程經驗然後要有大專建築相關科系畢業或者高考以上的這個及格 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10632.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10648.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那現在根據我們嘉義縣的一些相公所的這些反應他說這個建築工程的這種缺額從98年到現在已經將近17年都徵不到合格的人員那這個問題當然也不是現在才出來過去地方就已經喊了很多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10649.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10678.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那如果說這個證照審查這種業務長期用不具備法定資格的同仁代理那這樣最近嘉義的風災也是不斷嘛去年前年都有那災害附近都有供期壓力所以能力短缺它不僅是行政效率的問題跟民眾的安全也有關係我想請教類似這種長期遭不滿的這種特殊內科過去有沒有一些系統性的檢討因為已經整整我們這樣聽到的話是17年都沒有找到合格人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
10679.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
10707.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
院委員報告我們現在當然都在focus在土木工程那其實建築工程是另外一個我可以講說另外一個長期的議題那overall來講這整個議題當然是應該是行政院在負責並不是考試院在負責不過考試院這邊確實有在處理一些植物列等的一個調整那我知道行政院那邊最近有對土木工程因為土木工程的部分是涉及到他必須先要 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
10708.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
10724.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
工程機關那您剛剛講的合發鎮造這個東西鄉鎮市公所那個是不是叫建建築工程機關細節我不懂只要是只要是在工程機關裡面我們對土木工程的同仁事實上是有薪資有提高的我們的專業佳績有提高他有獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
10724.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
10748.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那建築工程是不是完全特別在鄉鎮市公所是完全適用這一套我不夠精準的了解不過我想這一部分呢還是總署應該他們會有更精準的一個了解了解其實這個少此話講大家都知道是大環境的問題那我們知道說貴府有推動這個檢科改革跟這個國考宣導這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
10750.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
10759.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那當然是相公正公說所他這個審查人力的問題跟一般的行政科不一樣那不是考科太多沒人想考那可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
10760.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
10785.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
要符合這一些規章的人確實就沒有這麼多啦那當然市場上面的要求沒有那麼多但是它的機會更多所以這個不管是行政院考選部那我們可能都要思考一下像這樣子怎麼樣綜合起來來去想說把沒有辦法一直都沒有辦法補足的東西把它補足因為之前也問行政院然後行政院的回答我們也沒有辦法很 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
10786.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
10795.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
很理解啦 就是問題還是存在那邊啦所以部長你自己的這個經驗來看的話有什麼其他可以去調整這種流財的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
10797.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
10823.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我覺得啦應該是這樣講我們特別很多工程類的部分因為民間市場的活絡政府確實碰到一個特別是最近這幾年景氣性的部分政府因為我們的制度會比較固定僵化就比較難隨時之後就調整這確實是不利的條件我們能做的可能是在薪資這個部分有獎金這個部分可不可以再多做一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
10824.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
10852.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那至於願不願意進來那真的是屬於個人的一個工作職場的一個選擇我想有些專業證照的同仁其實我們已經放了我們也可以由專業證照直接轉換成公務人員那是誘因也在那裡但是可能有些具有專業證照的同仁他們覺得他職涯的選擇還是願意選擇到那個民間部門不到政府部門所以這個真的是需要更多的一個討論跟這個努力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
10852.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
10878.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
部長你說有什麼樣的獎金上面的機制工程獎金裡面有留任獎金還有工程獎金跟留任獎金新實施的就是留任獎金那有沒有偏遠地區加級這個有其實在我們第一加級裡面有一個叫做合理化方案合理化方案就授權給地方政府本身可以參考原來的第一加級裡面在一個規範裡面自己再去做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
10879.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
10895.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
哪一個地方你可以怎麼樣實施然後報行政院核定就可以這是新的實施的制度那我知道現在用這個制度裡面主要是屏東還有東部嘉義縣好像是後來有新增加一個是在大 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
10897.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
10911.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
大埔吧大埔鄉就是在鎮魂水庫那一個部分就是說那是一個機制啦只是說要不要有一些機制來處理這個議題我覺得未來這個還是有一些空間譬如說我們老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
10912.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
10939.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
就有他有一個留任獎金那這部分細節的部分我覺得未來可以再跟部長說部長你覺得這個可能大補相這個機制是也可以去把它運用到其他地方政府怎麼樣去運用這個合理化我們叫合理化的這個第一佳績的這個方案合理化第一佳績方案好我們再來檢討一下這個事情就是跟總書來做業務報告的時候也許您可以多請教我們再來繼續下去好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
10945.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
10948.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好 謝謝 那麼接下來我們有請蔡議員與委員發言謝謝主席那我們是有請全序部部長 司部長跟考試院留秘書長請部長跟秘書長好委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
10971.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
10986.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
部長跟秘書長早這個考試院在2025年那因為大家都在反映這一個地方政府也就是二級政府跟中央政府之間那植物類等的一個落差那造成說地方是留不住人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
10987.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11009.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
以嘉義為例我們地方政府的人才他同樣的一個工作我可以選擇我在阿館處我去我去林務署或者是我去交通部的這一些其他的一些部署單位同樣的工作但是職務列等是有落差的所以交通部事實上在去年2025年10月的時候通過地方機關職務的調整案那真的調整案也是想要平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11015.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11035.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
中央跟地方的這個植物列等的差別而且希望可以在六都跟縣市他們所屬的這個機關調高非主管值的這個公務員的植物列等從7到8可以提升到8到9那如果是主管值的那甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11036.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11057.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
上限如果是7的話可以把它調整成7到8那這個政策在2月1號已經上路了那我想要請教看秘書長還是部長可以回應一下說那目前上路一個多月後那你們掌握的狀況是怎樣呢這個制度已經通案下去就等於是各個縣市政府都可以這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11058.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11075.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
要等於是要提出那個修編那個編制表的一個東西送來我們這邊我們就很快就要合下去那細節上說到底有沒有送上來這個實務上的操作可能會後如果再跟委員報告所以縣市政府再分別送上來對這需要有這樣的程度但是部長我之前也有跟您反應過嘛那事實上我們也有聽到很多基層公務員的聲音就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11079.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11104.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我們雖然這樣有一個調高但是我們知道你們現在公務員他如果要進入這一個他如果從五到七他要進入到了這個八值等他必須要有一個條件也就是說在公務人員任用法第十七條第七項他必須要限縮他必須要碩士以上的學位那所以咧如果他現在就已經是主管然後他要進到八的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11104.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11122.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
他忽然間會卡到說我因為我還要先去取得學位然後我才能我才能繼續來當這個主管可是我們知道他要取得學位又有時間上的壓力表示說他會有一個落空窗期這個空窗期讓他變成說他本來是主管他抓不到這個主管啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11124.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11129.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這件事情是不會發生 因為他如果現在 我們有一個機制他如果現在沒有符合這個資格 還是繼續留用啦目前暫時先用這種方式來處理 所以不會有這個問題啦那剩下就是說 這樣規定喔 覺得有合理啦那就是涉及修法 要不要討論修法的一個問題我也有準備要提案修法 我是覺得可以檢討這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11151.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11168.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
你現在每隔一個碩士以上的一個學位事實上我覺得很多公務員他服務到了一定的年限比如說五年上去啦甚至服務到了七年他的經驗是豐富的喔他未必說他要回過頭說要碩士學位嘛這個我感覺上都有一點在綁住說 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11170.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11180.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
他的能力就一定要跟他的學位去把他綁在一起這件事我覺得是可以解答我可以公開的說我並不贊成用學歷來做這個事情我們看的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11182.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11211.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
會做事沒有啦平常嘛有一款的工作考試來表現所以這些有經驗的人一定要給一個學歷才能上去學歷並不代表他現場上的工作一定做得好不過當初立法一定有他的是啦 恭喜有他的想法嘛所以現在我覺得這可以檢討一下也剛好搭配我們剛好把植物劣等也做一個調整我覺得可以檢討啦好 不然部長還有一個問題啦就是我們說植物劣等的時候事實上它就會呈現出一個很大的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11212.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11230.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
在中央在中央這個層級跟地方的層級落差還是存在的那既然有這樣的一個落差存在我甚至我都覺得說尤其你要想說我們加以關我們又更麻煩如果你說六都它就是中央政府跟二級政府我們又有三級政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11230.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11243.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那三級政府也有三級政府他的課長啊 他的公所的主祕啊他們也應該要有一定的一個成績 不然我們公所也有在說課長沒人要去做秘書啦我課長啊 秘書七定啊 課長啊 有課長 欸 規定我忘記了秘書被定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11251.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11270.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
秘書被訂啦,課訂可以搞定嘛,對不對課訂七到八啦七到八啦,所以就沒人要去做秘書啦,因為秘書要觀看嘛我就課訂我做好好好啦,因為我一樣都八而已啦,一樣是八上限啦對,那如果說你要調整公所的上限,把它上去說那是不是秘書要稍微久,也可以再 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11271.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11300.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
高一點的話 哇 又卡到說那跟縣政府之間又有漢格的存在這樣起來我們沒人要來管政府啊所以大家都要在基層 我沒人要管政府又有這個漢格的存在所以這個問題咧我都主張說現在以14級的植物劣等來說事實上含性不夠剛有可能我們就來研議一套而且大家也有講到公務員的薪資是台灣可以來重新檢討的那有沒有可能發展到15級的植物劣等咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11301.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11324.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我跟委員報告 行家 你剛才說的都是我們在不斷這個我們就經常跟這個事情 因為我們這裡有三級政府嘛三級政府有公所的公務員會跟縣府的公務員會卡住然後縣府的公務員又跟中央的又卡住啊一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層一層 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11328.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11342.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這個到辦公室聊天的時候也談到這個事情那我覺得這是一個議題可以好好來想想說好我拿出來給部長你們講一下再來第一基層的公務員他們都覺得打擊他們信心最大的就是在用 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11343.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11356.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
這個烤雞齁那當時在90年的時候那因為有一個當年全序部的一個簽函齁他是取代法制化然後他就直接把他說喔這個夾等的把他限制在75% |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11358.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11365.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
假凍75%這件事 我譬如我們今年我們嘉義我們台灣登規辦得這麼好辦得這麼好 全國都餓了 而且創造這麼多的山積1360萬的旅客來 而且還創造300多億的交通產值這教育我做主管 我們文官局全部都要打架了 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11383.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11402.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以全部就 啊就表現真的好欸啊挖土 也是一樣的拔一隻喔 一樣拔一隻所以這個會影響到基層公務員的戰鬥力跟他們的那個啊士氣啊我覺得這個東西挖土來 大家來檢討一下有啦 挖土剛好在今天的場合裡面已經講過很多次就是說我們確實呢已經提 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11403.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11412.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
想好一個新的制度會把大家比較過去長期的一些狀況做一個徹底的一個討論跟解決可能順利的話應該會這個會期以這個會期的目標上來立法院然後我們重新修改我會處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11420.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11440.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為我看這次我們嘉義縣政府辦台灣燈會,你看我們的衛生局表現那麼好,整個台灣燈會的現場這麼清晰,那是投入很多志工,然後大家很多公務員,大家都是努力以赴啊,像這個我覺得,哇,你說要分公4分之3,我就是假,4分之1,沒有,那4分之1要怎麼算,那很難過的啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11442.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11456.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我知道,主管也辛苦啦主管也辛苦,但是對那個公務員的士氣也不好啦就真的今年這樣就表現一到贊耶得不到應該要有的榮耀我是覺得這可以檢討一下好不好好,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,謝謝蔡委員那接下來我們有請吳麗華委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11474.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11474.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
三位首長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11499.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11514.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我常常講一旦原住民自治成為一個目標那麼原住民的人才培育就相對非常的重要所以在教育部那邊其實我也常常提 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11515.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11535.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們稍早先前有的原專班我一直呼籲不要去亂開那果然不錯像現在面臨少子化之後我們發現很多的原專班都要關而且呢也沒有真的去培育出我們所需要原住民自治的各類人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11536.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11554.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那我這邊就是希望說教育部他應該要有一個上位的思考要有一個架構要知道我們到底要培育出什麼樣的人才出來然後去結合大專院校他們好的科系來做培育那我今天來到這裡其實也是關心我們的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11557.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11573.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
因為我們現在列冊的文官有6779人如果對應全國的公務員人數我們看到那個比例是1.8%那這個1.8%到底多還是不多我們去看一下原住民目前是來到62.9萬人對照全國的2328萬人目前原住民的比例已經來到2.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11584.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11598.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以呢公務員佔比1.8到原住民人口比例2.7其實是有一個蠻大的空間要努力那如果說我們再細看一下我們發現我們原住民的這些文官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11599.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11620.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
大多幾乎40%是落在去當警察那其他的部分有委任的 兼任的 還有檢任的那我們看一下那個比例我們看到 兼任呢他在所有原住民的比例當中雖然是35%可是他卻是全國兼任公務員的1.7%跟原住民的2.7%也有落差那如果談到檢任 那更慘 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11628.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11647.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
因為呢就佔全國檢任公務員的佔比是0.6%連1%都不到那這種狀況其實在警察系統也是一樣雖然原住民有很多人投入去當警察可是我們看一下警監全國的警察就一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11647.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
11663.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
也就是說三線的就那麼一個所以這個是一個非常失衡的狀態那過去呢我也在內政部警政署那邊我也常常關心所以呢我們也希望園民會那邊多做努力例如給他們做補習那個特考讓他們能夠正式的成為警察那學校端呢我們也希望警專警大那個部分能夠去提高那個比例但是我很高興雖然警專警大 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
11677.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
11690.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們的比例呢從我來到立法院那時候是1.5%現在已經到3.5%可是我很高興真正也靠自己努力考進去的景專114年已經來到7.09% 7.1%所以我覺得原住民我們其實都很努力可是我們回頭看 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
11699.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
11717.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
原住民的這個公務人員以三等特考來講應該這是老生常談你們也都很了解你看我們的土木工程光是看土木工程這是多麼重要的公務人力因為很多原住民的相公所有時候連一個祭祀都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
11718.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
11735.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
根本就沒有這樣的鄉公所非常多可是你看喔那種災後重建特別預算的經費進來那是幾億幾十億的進來可是鄉公所他根本沒有能力去做這一些工程所以像土木工程三點特考 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
11736.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
11758.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
開缺35人已經算很少了 可是你看報名的40人結果倒考的16人 最後錄取3個人我相信你們都比我更清楚所以我們很希望說在這個部分 既然我剛剛講的我們有沒有可能針對公務人力的部分去結合教育部 園民會一起來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
11758.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
11782.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
像我知道的是中興大學它的農土木都很強我們也有請教育部是不是能夠支持他們而他們也很樂意用他們最好的師資最好的科系能夠來協助培育我們原住民各類的自治人才那這個部分目前已經有起色那我今天之所以來是因為之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
11783.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
11805.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
考試委員一萬納威或者是我們考選部劉部長還有包括秘書長您或者市部長其實你們也都很有心要來幫忙這一塊所以在我們援助民族教育發展計畫的中長城115到119現在已經有納入特別是今天的夜報 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
11806.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
11828.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我也有看到就是考選部有在第四頁特別提到你們已經主動的進入那關於我們很關心的就是盤點大學數科的這些重點學校然後報考率最多的那些大專校院或者是公部門寒暑假的公務見習甚至是現在大專 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
11829.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
11842.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
全部的大專院校都有原資中心那能不能夠去提升他的一個角色等等那今天因為我有看到夜報所以我特別是不是請我們的部長能夠就這個規劃能夠說出來讓我們了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
11847.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
11867.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
謝謝委員跟委員報告最主要是說我們也非常感謝原民會跟教育部跟考選部我們一起針對未來五年的原住民主教育發展計畫然後特別有一個就是推動公務人才培育的項目目前具體的進度是我們三個部會已經成立了正式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
11868.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
11883.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
次長級的工作小組在推動再往下推動重要的工作項目那當然針對已經在上面列出的那主要是教育部要負責盡量多一點人才培育那考選部要來更強化這些包含宣導還有像剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
11885.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
11903.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
委員所提到的包含去對齊這個課程地圖還有跟原治中心的合作那園民會他會更強化在輔導的這一塊那至於說剛剛委員提出了很多的點也都大概會納入這個工作小組來討論那我們希望能夠盡快會有一些成果出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
11904.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
11933.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好 我特別就是要跟你們說一聲感謝也希望你們要更加努力因為原住民自治人才的培育始終對原住民族整個發展來講是最重要的一件事情所以呢今天考選部 考試院 我們全序部一同努力的空間很多希望能夠跟教育部 園民會一起結合來做甚至是包括我舉一個簡單的例子跟市部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
11934.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
11954.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我們原鄉最高秘書就八值等你知道嗎可是到了區六都我們的區以茂林區來講區公所它的秘書比照原鄉八值等喔可是人家其他六都的區的秘書是九值等喔然後呢 園民會為什麼留不住人 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
11955.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
11984.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
沒有太多高的職等所以乾脆呢大家待一待知道自己的生涯規劃已經無所寄望了就乾脆早一點回原鄉可是到了原鄉最高就只能爬到那樣子所以呢我覺得這個限制了很多人才願意投入公務的考試這也是希望我們全序部來幫忙那在這邊特別謝謝考試院所帶領的團隊那希望在未來原住民公務人才的培育需要你們更多加把勁 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
11986.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12008.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
好 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華委員那麼我就先處理會議時間那上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有的登記發言委員詢答結束為止好 那接下來我們就接下來是鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在那接下來我們請葉元之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12021.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12049.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請秘書長跟考選部 那退府跟那個 市部長 市部長秘書長還有 劉部長也有嘛劉部長對 考選部的劉部長 可以可以好 委員長委員長早 委員長確認一下我們現在如果 退休的公務人員他如果到有公費資助的機關去任職的話他的薪資是有一個最低工資的上限對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12050.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12078.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這規定是從什麼時候開始的應該是我們在修改那個退伏法的時候就已經其實是在年金改革之前就已經是這樣那當時年金改革之前因為這些退休的公務人員可能政府認為說他們的退休金領的比較多那如果到又到另外一個機關任職的話如果沒有一個上限的話會有領雙薪的感覺所以有訂這個上限但是年改好像沒有把這個修掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12078.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12088.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
因為年改之後他們的退休金被砍了很多現在已經不是領的跟當初講的一樣那為什麼還要有這個上限有沒有曾經考慮過要把這個上限做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12091.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12117.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
年改之前是用這個工資嘛現在也是啊就是這個部分因為它有立法當初的一個原意立法原意 我知道 可是現在已經不一樣了嘛現在年改了嘛所以我覺得第一個 因為年改之後他們退休金也變少了而且他現在是退休到另外一個地方上班是憑自己的勞力啊他不是憑空而來的錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12118.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12129.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
所以你給他一個天花板讓他不能賺更多我覺得不合理啦我希望考試院可以針對這個地方來研議一下好不好那我今天會這邊提出來其實也是因為在教育現場遇到一個問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12131.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12154.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
什麼問題呢因為這個教師的終點費很久沒有調了嘛那好不容易前一段時間教育部終於幫教師調了終點費那當然不夠但是總算跨出第一步可是因為現在缺老師缺得非常嚴重那很嚴重的情況之下有很多退休老師他願意回到學校裡面來當終點老師但你忽然間終點費提高之後他能夠帶的課就少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12155.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12174.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
一下就達到上限了所以也造成那個教育現場的問題所以基於兩個理由啦我知道那個我看起來那個司務長好像第一次聽到有人提這個提這個問題有點錯愕甚至剛剛的資訊還不對啊還跟我講說說現在不是領最低工資現在就是領最低工資應該是我們有內部在討論這個議題有在討論喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12178.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12193.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我沒有問你就沒有內部就沒討論我一問就內部有討論沒有關係沒有關係沒有關係這不是這什麼啊特別公事這就很合理啊第一個他已經年改了嘛退會金已經被砍啊所以你給他第二個他這是自己去上班啊又不是憑空給他錢第三個我剛剛講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12195.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12223.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這個缺老師嘛退休老師進來之後他能夠上的課變少因為他一下就到上限啊而且整個勞動市場現在都缺缺人嘛所以你放寬這個如果退休公務人員去別的地方上班的工資的上限其實也可以解決一部分的人力的就業市場人力的問題所以我覺得這個事情是應該做的好不好那個部長請問一下大概什麼時候秘書長你覺得你認為這是不是應該一個改革的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12225.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12251.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個聽起來是有討論空間所以全劇部也在討論當中不要每次我們在講什麼就說在討論當中我沒有講你們就沒有討論當中我們講了就討論當中好像一副都是我早就逼你先想到了就是要來這邊爭這個口舌之爭沒關係那你跟我講你什麼時候你們討論到什麼時候是要討論到討論到牛年馬月還是大月在冬季什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12252.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12265.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
一個月可不可以一個月把方案提出來好不好包委員 這個真的是我們不需要證明不是 這個有什麼提高他的之前 我跟你講之前公務人員到大學去教書也是有上限後來也是 後來有試限嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12268.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12287.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那現在公務人員到大學教書這個就放寬了嘛其實這個不是什麼了不起的問題啦好像講什麼大工程一樣沒有那麼大的工程啦要不要放寬而已你對於教育現場缺工或者是其他缺工或者是公務人員退休之後他退休金減少讓他多賺一點錢你願不願意而已嘛這個哪有什麼好工程的 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12289.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12318.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
公務人員不願意做事情啦會有一百個理由啦願意做也可以有一千零一個理由啦就看你願不願意做嘛秘書長你應該是勇於認識的人啦好不好可以喔一個月一個月把報告好不好主席可以嗎請一個月把這個研究的報告給本席啦好不好不要做不要做這個主席才是請秘書長這裡喔就是一個月內然後將報告提供給業員之委員還有我們司法委員會的委員們好不好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12318.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12339.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
好 我再前面問一個問題因為前幾天就是有公務人員針對就是烤雞烤雞 烤雞啦 甲等乙等的比例提出在網路上面有提出他的意見然後我後來看到人事總署有回應他說看到了網友的呼籲了 所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12340.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12368.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
今年的夾燈比例一定不會低於前一年我覺得這很奇怪真的是喊的喔今天到底要打假還是假倚你要根據他的表現嘛所以很多工人為什麼會不爽是因為我明明表現很好啊可是因為我比較菜啊所以我主管就說不然你今年先扛一下過兩年再輪別人所以才會有人呼籲說要把這比例取消啊結果人事總署的回應居然是說沒關係啦我看到你的呼籲了啦不然今年就比去年高一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12369.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12394.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
是在菜市場喊價喔所以我幫你講一句話啦因為考試法是考試院權責所以人總可能不方便在這個市場這個民主黨其實我也特別去看了其實這個東西跟什麼考試法也沒什麼關係啦這個是考試院跟人總他的命令嘛他要求公家機關說你要按照比例這比例還調整過耶在最早的時候是九成最早是九成啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12395.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12415.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
不是這樣有的很早以前你可以去問一下以前公務人員假等的比例最早有三分之一後來有三分之一以上到二分之一為原則後來就有不設限所以實務上變到九成以上就九成嘛又七成五嘛這樣太大鍋飯了所以又退回來五十為原則七十五為上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12416.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12438.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
但是這個比例所以這個第一個嘛你看烤雞到底要不要打甲打乙這跟油價一樣浮動啦是用喊的啦不是看你表現好不好啦這本來就是一個很問題那現在如果願意改革那我看到人總的回應居然是說沒關係今年比去年多這還是用喊的啊理論上就是要把這個比例把它取消嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12440.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12463.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個不是考機法 這個不是考機法這個母法裡面沒有規定說比例要多少對 母法沒有規定其實考試院跟人種願意做 一紙命令馬上就改了你一紙命令馬上就改了沒有法源啊 母法沒有這件事情我覺得每次都要講說這是法 這是法 然後好像都沒修法沒有 你現在要做 你明天就可以改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12463.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12486.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
沒有錯啦你願不願意做?林組長你願不願意做?我講我要做什麼好因為剛剛有跟好幾位委員報告我就要重申就是說我們現在已經進行到我們院內院部有溝通那全區部現在就是即將開始跟機關做意見徵詢如果順利的話其實我聽今天很多委員的意見我認為這件事不會應該也有相當的共識朝著這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12487.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12513.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
前進部下個月 最快下個月可以把法案送到院裡面來那我的 我們的期望是我這個會期把法案 把考慮法的修法不是只有比例的那個上限的問題全盤的修正 我們送到立法院來那如果 因為立法院可以像去年這樣支持我們去修保障法的這樣的一個處理的話那加速來審議我們希望今年可以完成這整個工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12513.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12539.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那所以我這邊一定會盡量讀出全序部盡快還有院裡面我們盡快把法案送到立法院來到時候再請召委跟各委員來質詢如果大家都支持沒有問題啦但是我覺得還是要切開來講第一個烤雞法當然大家盡快通過但是取消這個比例加增比例的你立刻就可以做了我覺得不要推給烤雞法你立刻就可以做了如果烤雞法修正完就沒有這個問題但是如果說如果沒有的話切開來處理因為你那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12541.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12551.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
假等這個你忙就可以做了啦真的不要推考這兩回事啦這兩回事啦希望你可以朝剛講的方向啦謝謝謝謝委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12556.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12572.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 謝謝葉委員之委員好 那麼所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12573.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12594.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
蔡奇昌委員、楊瓊瑛委員、林倩琪委員、吳宗憲委員所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報,並且請相關機關以書面答覆。好的,那麼本次會議議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢,那我們今天的會議就到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家。 |