| IVOD_ID |
17279 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17279 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-23-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-18T08:34:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-18T12:37:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:02:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd8c1e201b3fb6835ae5565ea6e1c7193c157d0edf07c12ea6583cb6bbbf23935e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長及國家科學及技術委員會主任委員就「落實臺灣AI治理與基礎建設，發展臺灣AI軟體產業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及19日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:20 - 12:37:00 |
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好那我們現在開會我們初期委員已達法定人數我們現在開始開會好請議事人員宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1617.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1636.903 |
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立法院第十一屆第五會齊州通委員會第一次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年三月十一日星期三上午九時三分至九十五分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員萬美玲委員等十四人主席和委員心存 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1637.723 |
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1652.319 |
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報告事項一本院第十一屆第五會期各委員會召集委員時間選舉時間地點表業經本院第十一屆第五會期第一次會議決定照案通過在案二宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1656.262 |
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1683.212 |
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選舉本院第十一屆第五會期本會召集委員經各黨團順便同意以推選方式行之選舉結果推選黃委員建豪林委員俊憲擔任本院第十一屆第五會期交通委員會召集委員散會宣讀完畢好我們各位委員現場沒有委員我們在場委員不足三人我們一次錄就暫不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1685.027 |
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1708.204 |
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那我們現在就介紹我們在場的我們各位樹花部今天開會的相關同仁我們先歡迎我們樹花部的林部長林立健林部長謝謝部長我們數位產業署的林俊秀署長林署長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1711.127 |
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1735.462 |
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我們自動安全署的蔡福隆署長蔡署長我們國家自動安全研究院的林寅達院長院長好我們國家科學及技術委員會的副主委國科副主委陳秉宇陳副主委我們新竹科學園區管理局的副局長倪茂榮 倪副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1738.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1762.025 |
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我們有歡迎內政部警政署諮詢室的王正宗副主任行政警察局炸雞犯罪防治中心的張文元主任謝謝主任本次會議我們進行就落實台灣AI治理與基礎建設發展台灣AI軟體產業我們來進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1767.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1769.307 |
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我們就請列席機關來報告我們請蘇發部林怡靜林部長來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1785.393 |
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1800.466 |
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主席各位委員今天應邀列席貴委員會就速發布落實臺灣AI治理與基礎建設發展臺灣AI軟體產業提出專題報告並就此向各位委員請意還請各位委員不吝四教 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1801.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1815.583 |
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为因应AI发展趋势并强化我国数位竞争力苏巴布以完善治理强化基础促进产业发展为推动主轴积极建构AI治理制度主权AI训练语料与授权机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1817.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1841.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
並從算力、資料、人才、行銷與資金等方面推動台灣AI軟體產業發展透過跨部會協作與公司協力機制逐步建立可信任的AI發展環境加速AI技術落地應用帶動產業創新與數位經濟成長以下就落實台灣AI治理與基礎建設及發展台灣AI軟體產業相關具體措施與執行成效進行說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1847.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1872.419 |
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一、推動AI治理制度及可信任AI發展人工智慧基本法已經在115年1月公布施行建立AI治理的原則與制度框架我們並提出永續發展與扶植人類自主、隱私保護與資料治理、資安與安全、透明與可解釋、公平與不歧視及問責等七大原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1873.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1891.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
制度分工上,述發部負責AI風險分類框架,評估工具與技術指引,並採跨部會合作方式推動AI治理,優先處理生成影像標示與網路爬沖等議題,逐步透過指引與社會溝通建立治理共識。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1892.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1907.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
接著在推動AI評測促進可信任AI發展方面,速發部持續維運AI產品與系統評測中心推動原模型評測與可信任AI發展,截至115年2月底已經完成103個大型原模型的評測 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1916.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1935.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
部分业者经模型优化后再次送测,整体表现平均提升10.7%。我们并累计发布107个开源模型在地化评测结果,供产业参考。另外,我们持续深化与国际合作,与美国UL Solutions及法国LNE等机构交流合作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1936.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1952.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
並於114年10月台發雙邊會議共同發表台灣語言模型評測方法115年我們也會持續提供各部會技術支援並規劃公共利益領域比如說兒少保護領域的評測方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1956.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1983.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
二在強化AI發展所需資料與人才基礎環境方面我們推動促進資料創新利用發展條例的立法為促進資料開放與共享支持AI發展速發部於114年8月提出促進資料創新利用發展條例草案建立資料開放共享及再利用的法治基礎草案規劃提升開放資料品質推動政府與 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1985.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2006.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
產業資料共享機制並以標準授權條款與非專屬授權原則促進資料流通降低AI研發利用門檻同時建立資料治理制度包括設置機關資料長級成立行政院資料創新利用諮詢會透過基本計畫與執行計畫推動資料驅動創新生態強化公司協力並加速主權AI發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2016.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2035.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然后我们也成立了AI公务人才发展办公室书发部与人事行政总署于114年成立AI公务人才发展办公室目的在于统筹全国AI培训资源书发部核心的任务是建立AI公务人才认定职业导入多元算力资源 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2035.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2045.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
並加速推動政府AI服務落地預計115年底正式發布AI公務人才認定指引並推動全國性公務同仁AI訓練及認證機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2048.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2066.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
三,我们要促进AI产业发展与生态系建构。首先在算力方面,为推动自负产业AI应用产品化,速发部建置AI算力池并提供业者申请使用,协助AI新创进行模型训练与技术开发。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2068.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2096.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
截至114年底已經協助242家次業者開發266項AI模型與服務其中80家業者已經成功將AI服務產品化115年我們將持續擴充AI算力至140片GPU抱歉預計協助300家業者加速AI創新利用落地 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2099.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2125.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
書發部也會積極透過兔餐機制引入民間力量與資金目前已經將投資租稅減免評估案送交財政部審議爭取以租稅優惠提高企業的投資誘因同時本部已正式發布函示將AI算力中心認定為國家策略性產業期盼藉此引導民間充沛的保險業資金投入算力中心建置 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2127.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2142.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
再来在资料方面为促进AI训练资料的合法释出与使用事务发布主导推出台湾主权AI训练语料授权条款建立明确授权机制降低资料释出与AI训练可能产生的著作风险 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2143.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2165.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
與行政成本,加速主權AI發展此外,書發部建置了台灣主權AI訓練語道庫並於114年12月24日上線以強化AI模型在地化能力整合高品質正體中文語料支援AI模型訓練各天性台灣語言、文化與生活情境目前已經有超過200個政府機關參與上架超過3000筆資料集 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2170.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2197.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
累计有超过11亿个tokens也就是相当于11亿个中文字内容涵盖了语言、文化、教育、生物与地理知识领域提供AI模型重要训练素材提升其对台湾语境与社会情境的理解能力数八部也将持续收集高品质的综艺语料供国内外AI模型开发者申请使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2198.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2225.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第三 在人才方面 事务发部已经发布了AI产业人才认定指引建立共通职能标准提出应用开发与研究三种人才与五种AI能力类型协助企业辨识及引导所需AI人才能力的养成并且已经纳入公务人员AI培训参考同时整合需求端 训练端 认证端民间的能量 建立AI人才生态系目前已经集结24个生态系伙伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2226.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2242.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
包含21家培训认证机构3家人才媒合平台后续也将持续扩大生态系伙伴会整相关认证及课程资讯供各界参考运用第四在行销方面为促进AI产业跨应用与合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2243.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2255.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
速發部推動跨產業AI交流與媒合機制透過辦理AI Demo Days促進產官學對接113年到114年已經吸引了370家企業參與115年我們將以場域導向產業聚焦區域串聯為策略規劃辦理12場的AI Demo Day並以健康照護為主軸串聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2269.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2295.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
串联智慧制造及智慧农序幕等产业推动AI技术于多元场域导入验证与应用示范第五在资金方面为促进AI创新与数位经济产业发展速发部推动了加强投资AI新创实施方案由国发基金匡列新台币100亿元为期10年并自114年3月起受理投资申请截至115年2月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2297.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2307.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
已經遴選36家搭配投資人並核定投資六案投資金額約7556萬元帶動民間投資約3億元未來將持續擴大搭配投資人參與並推動投資案件審查結合相關輔導政策強化AI新創與數位經濟產業發展動能 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2320.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2348.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
總結來說數位發展部將持續從AI治理資料基礎與產業發展等面向推動相關政策透過完善AI治理制度與主權資料基礎並整合算力人才行銷及資金等資源促進AI技術落地應用與產業發展逐步建構AI產業生態系並提升我國的AI競爭力以上報告敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2354.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2359.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 我們也感謝蘇化部林一進部長好 接下來我們邀請國科會陳秉諭副主委來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2374.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2397.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席各位委員先進大家好感謝各位委員對AI治理的重視與支持安排國科會進行落實台灣AI治理與基礎建設發展台灣AI軟體產業的專題報告以下緊究AI基本法的原則框架 算力基礎設施等面向來進行簡要的報告 敬請各位委員會與指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2399.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2412.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
大願於去年的12月23號三讀通過人工智慧基本法並於今年的1月14日經總統公告施行AI基本法通過後本會及 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2413.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2434.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
研議行政院數位政策法制協調專案會議協調來處理跨部會的AI法規調適的機制目前課陣由各部會盤點相關作用法及措施並規劃國家人工智慧戰略特別委員會的相關事宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2436.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2461.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
AI基本法是一個上位的基本原則框架確立我國人工智慧研發與應用的基本原則以及政府的推動重點我國AI基本法的AI治理的特色是以風險為基礎來保障人民的權益因此明定訴發部除了要推動資料治理機制外更要訂定風險分類框架並協助各目的失業主管機關訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2462.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2478.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
管理規範同時提供評估驗證的工具以協助各機關作業隨著AI浪潮重塑全球產業與地緣政治我國不僅是半導體製造的樞紐更必須在AI時代確保國家主權與資訊安全的長期長程發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2482.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2499.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
本會的核心目標非常明確我們要完備AI基礎建設提供優質的開發環境確保我國的關鍵資料留在境內逐步完備我國的AI技術的自主化及應用發展能力本會將運用三項重點任務推動上述目標一 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2500.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2513.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們正分年擴建新一代的AI算力主機本會的核心任務就是為產官學界打造最尖端的研發共用運算資源我們已經在113年完成手作主機建制目標為 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2518.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2531.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
大概是16個使用率已經超過八成幾乎滿載這顯示國內研發需求非常強烈因此我們在114年底緊接著完成了第二座 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2532.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2551.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
建置目標為4.3MW大概是100PF的大型主機目前正在進行最後的驗測預計今年的5月份就可以正式對外開放對後續長遠的算力擴充計畫我們的目標希望能夠在118年將算力規模提升至 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2553.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2578.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
23MW大概是480的Petaflop此外針對大型算力進駐的資料中心設施今年我們也將啟動工建計畫的沙倫算力中心也是規劃在118年完工將提供最高規格的節能與耐震環境確保國家算力服務的穩定與安全亦將為主權AI技術的發展作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2579.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2608.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
重要的基地二此外為了促進算力技術的長期長生發展還有資源的充分運用我們與相關的公司部門在去年底正式成立了台灣算力聯盟這個協作機制的成立將優先聚焦於算力協調還有媒合機房還有基礎資源的合作人才培育以及開源軟體推廣等方向並以促進公司算力的資源協作為目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2609.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2637.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
三 除了硬體建置之外我們已建置了台灣AI RAPRAP 這個我們簡稱 這個是個簡稱全名是Resilience and High Performance AI Platform這個平台我們整合了先進算力多種的開源模型還有模型微調的開發工具同時推動模型快速轉移到商用的雲端服務以加速協助學研界與中小企業降低開發門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2639.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2651.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
讓模型能夠快速地從實驗室走進實務場域我們積極推廣台灣AIRAP的服務從去年的4月開始試營運總計有103個單位參與橫跨25個應用開發領域並且在去年的12月1日正式開放使用總結來說本會將透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2665.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2681.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
堅實的AI基礎建設優質的雲端服務並鼓勵主權模型的應用開發等策略串聯產官學跨域合作共同建立一個自主開放且具備韌性的AI治理對策守護台灣的AI主權防線以上報告進行指教謝謝各位好我們謝謝國科會陳副主委的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2693.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2714.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好那我們現場已經有另外兩位委員到場我們就先確定上一次的議事記錄如果沒有意見的話那我們就確認上次議事記錄好那現在我們進行詢答先宣告以下事項我們詢答的時間初期委員6加2分鐘我們列席委員4加1分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2715.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2735.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
委員發言登記請於10點30分以前截止各位委員如果有臨時提案也請於10點以前提出以便我們議事人員來進行會診同時我們也暫定10點30分休息10分鐘好現在我們邀請登記第一位的委員陳清榮委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2750.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2754.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2764.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2781.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
委員早安林副長我們今天的一個專題報告就是談我們的AI治理大家都在談AI我們今天的報紙也已經談到 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2784.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2796.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們的一個揮打是他也要來擴大版圖是要來養龍蝦是什麼是養龍蝦你林部長你身為我們的這個數法部的部長能不能藉由這個機會來跟我們說明什麼叫做養龍蝦 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2809.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2830.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
OK我們現在大家在講說養龍蝦講的其實是那個最近有一個很紅的叫做Open Cloud的開源軟體那這個就是所謂的Agentic AI那我們以前用那個ChatGPT等這種AI工具的時候就是它純粹是跟我們對話不會跟現實的世界產生任何的那個互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2831.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2855.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
但是有這個Agentic AI以後呢就是說我們這個可以透過那個OpenCloud就是這個我們講的說龍蝦這個軟體我就可以讓這個LLM這些大型語言軟體去幫我做一些事情譬如說他可以幫我在在YouTube上面發布影片然後也可以幫我去訂機票等等那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2856.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2874.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那林部長都有掌握嘛之類那我在這邊想請教既然我們現在的這種AI代理的這樣的一個數位助理就這樣的開源式的一個AI代理程式那已經廣泛在運用那尤其我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2875.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2902.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
包括我剛剛講的會展也都要來開發了但是從剛剛部長所談我們就了解這樣的運用用AI來使用AIAI來運用AIAI來使用AI我們產生的這樣的一個高效率我們是看到它正面正面的一下那我想請教部長這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2906.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2921.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
一個養龍蝦這樣的一個open crowd這樣的一個這樣的代理的一個城市它在風險 治安的風險你這邊有沒有任何的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2922.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2949.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
OK 的確大家都注意到因為這個龍蝦可以幫我們做很多事情他甚至可以使用我們的信用卡去網路上去買一些東西或者買一些服務所以現在所謂的風險除了個資以外甚至他有時候會幫幫我們去刷卡然後刷了很多很多的錢讓我們那個一覺醒來發現說我的那個錢包破了一個洞那因為這個原因所以事實上昨天就是那個輝達黃仁勳他也宣布說他們要做一個叫Nemo |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2949.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2957.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
NemoCloud就是在那個OpenCloud上面的基礎上面他們做了一些加強那這些加強主要就是在那個資安方面的加強這樣我們就了解嘛就是OpenCloud它的資安風險還是很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2966.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2994.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以黃恩興他們要推的就是NemoCloud希望在治安風險在企業的營用能夠更加的在風險安全上能夠更加的控制嘛我們這樣的論點是對的那既然我們都知道有風險但是我們現在也很多用戶在養龍蝦那風險又存在那我要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2995.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3010.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那我們速發步啊我們針對這樣的資安風險我們有跟上嗎我們有什麼計畫的作為嗎是委員這個問題非常好因為現在AI的發展非常快速 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3011.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3031.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
事實上我們在抒發部在AI的監理上一直有一個必須做平衡一方面是我們希望說做一些監管保護大家的資安等方面的安全但是另外一方面我們又擔心說太多的監管會阻礙到科技的發展事實上這個也是歐盟跟美國我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3032.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3046.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
部長我們的速度要快我們身為數位部我們管理對治安的一個的一個建立我們一定要跟上我們AI的速度啊對不對那現在很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3047.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3065.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們已經看到大陸已經限制公部門還有國家的企業都不能養紅蝦那我們也看到包括Meta、Google、微軟、Amazon等等也都禁止員工來使用Open Cloud |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3066.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3078.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那大陸昨天他的國家安全部也公布了所謂一個龍蝦安全養殖手冊來試菌養龍蝦可能會面臨的風險等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3082.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3103.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那我在這邊我們認為我們速發部是否已經也啟動這樣的一個風險評估有沒有任何的一個相關指引的作為那我們有沒有在演繹我們的速度上能夠是不是也可以來評估啊我們來發佈我們的農家安全的的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3109.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3135.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
手冊等等這些措施樹華部有沒有準備是委員講得非常好謝謝委員的提醒但是因為這個科技的發展實在太快了對啊真的很快啊譬如說前天我們認為說那個open cloud有很多的資安風險可是昨天那個黃仁勳又發表了那個Nemo cloud以後很多那個之前前天發生的那風險昨天已經就是被他解決掉所以今天我們在這裡討論的AI的專題報告是沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3139.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3157.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那我們已經看到AI的整個快速的這樣的指數型的快速逆轉我們期待速發不要跟著上時代這是最重點的速度速度是非常重要的對我們的一個速度跟安全嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3157.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3186.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
要相對所以我在這裡特別也要求我們樹發部要特別來努力好不好這個養龍蝦的安全關係著社會大眾關係著企業希望能夠跟上腳步那在這裡我們還要補充跟樹發部我也做一點要求跟肯定詐騙是國人大家真的就是覺得是一個很嚴重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3188.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3213.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
林部長有跟我提到我們打炸過去我們跟日本要調資料要兩個月現在縮短到三天我想這對打炸很有幫助但是我們目前對Meta、Google這些平台我們還要多久如果需要調閱資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3215.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3222.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們現在Meta跟Google目前Meta應該也很快3天Google比較慢一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3237.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3263.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
一個月所以我們期待我們四五二部繼續努力 好不好如果我們的目標也是三天所以我們打炸才有幫助這是我們提取的好不好 美麗 四五二部我們加油謝謝委員提醒與支持 謝謝好 我們非常感謝陳建榮委員的發言接下來我們邀請萬美玲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3273.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3282.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
謝謝昭偉 我們有請我們訴發部的林部長我們再請警政署資訊室的王副主任請警政署資訊室王副主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3284.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3307.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
委員早安部長早AI時代我們都知道AI的軟體除了可以當工具輔助這個工具之外那同時很多時候會被拿來濫用這種現象都存在那我們現在就看到有出現這個AI換臉我想本席也跟你這個討論過一箭脫衣的這個軟體拿來被違法使用而且這是有非常嚴重的一個這個侵害那這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3307.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3321.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
本席所說的工具的軟體可以說是橫行啦不管是在這個尋找啦操作啦其實算十分容易所以呢當然受害者就會比較多那我們根據民團展翅協會的統計去年檢舉的熱線受理了將近2500件兒少性影像的一個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3326.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3353.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
兒少我真的覺得非常可惡啦那其中就發現58個網路平台提供了AI換臉一鍵拖曳的功能然後本期就看到衛福部這個保護司統計兒少性影像申訴的案件從112年修法以後56件到114年暴增到1033件那這是我們可以看到的數字那也許還有黑數那就更可怕那其中兒少身為性影像的案件數也從過去一鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3355.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3376.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那到現在已經來到九件了那我覺得他其實不會按照這樣的速度他速度一旦往上的時候那受害者非常的多所以這個表格您可以看一下那但是我們看到根據AI產出的性影像雖然可以透過兒少性剝削防治條例去下架我們這個不當性影像但是呢下架畢竟是後端了 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3376.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3400.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們對於這個產出這個信息上的AI工具的軟體現在是無法可管而且這個狀況就陷入了治標不治本那你對這個問題怎麼看是委員講得非常對那我們現在最大的問題不是單單我無法可管而已因為很多的這個雲端的這些工具事實上它的位置都在國外所以我們在司法上我們並沒有管轄權 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3401.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3422.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以這個是很多國家都非常頭大的一個問題所以您這樣的回答我覺得就是憂心忡忡聽起來說我們不但無法客觀因為他在境外我就更沒有辦法管但我覺得聽到這樣子我想國人心碎了一地沒關係我們有解決方案我可以跟委員報告我們有解決方案是我們有解決的方法第一個就是說我們大概給你30秒 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3424.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3445.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
第一個我們就是快速的下架比如說這個兒少好那另外一個我們就是要求標示就是有AI產生的影像我們希望他做標示然後我們也希望標示清楚對說這是AI產生的然後所有違法的部分我們會跟衛福部合作縮短這個下架的時程盡快下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3447.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3463.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
基本上就是這兩大方面就是下架還是下架嘛所以本席剛剛提的因為你給我 只給我30秒所以沒有 因為主席也才給我6加2啊好不好那我跟你講啊聽起來除了下架還是下架但我覺得源頭這件事情喔所謂的無法可管我們覺得還是要思考一下怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3463.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3492.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
當然你剛剛講的那兩點我覺得當然現在無法科管的情況之下我同意但我們來看根據人工智慧基本法中我們也規定我們在去年通過了速發部必須要制定AI風險分類框架而這個框架非常的重要因為我們是要提供給各目的事業主管機關去制定那怎麼樣去做一個管理但是這個風險分類的框架去年12月人工基本法通過以後到現在速發部做了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3492.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3503.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我們已經在 事實上我們已經 完成了嗎那個框架已經完成 那現在 框架完成 送行政院了嗎這個我請我們策略司司長 這個不能亂講喔 到底完成了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3504.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3521.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
框架的部分目前都完成了都完成了那送行政院合定了嗎目前我們大概預計要大概4月份送來是沒有送那完成了為什麼不送剛才一直說快快快下架都要快那完成了這個框架為什麼不送因為目前我們現在在做最後的法制盤點的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3523.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3545.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
要多久我們大概就是拚3月底3月底好很好那就剩下大概十二三天的時間嘛所以3月底是會整個完成把它送出去對嗎不能再拖了啦已經三個月了好嗎好接下來呢我想剛剛我們就在講說因為我現在看到你剛剛說的這些軟體都在海外在境外嘛所以呢看起來沒有更積極的作為可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3545.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3567.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那這一點我希望部長你發揮你的智慧那我不管是跟警政署大家去做橫向的溝通想想看還有什麼方式可以做那大家剛剛講這個下架的部分其實本身還是希望這個部長定期或者是只要有必要的時候把這些平台業者找來看怎麼樣可以再約束他們讓大家再一起來合作這應該做得到吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3568.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3591.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
是 這個沒問題現在我們下架沒有問題我們就積極做就像剛才我們的框架完成了也趕快送接下來呢我想我們看到速發部你自己講說在114年5月15號我們有推出一個網路詐騙通報查詢網3.0的APP對不對是好 在討論這個APP之前我要講我相信速發部的同仁對於打詐這件事情我肯定有在努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3591.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3619.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
真的有在努力而且辛苦那困難重重但是你努力的速度永遠趕不上民眾對於你們的期待以及民眾對於詐騙的痛恨所以因此我覺得跟警政署這個地方還是一樣要橫向合作您知道嗎當我們打詐不利的時候我們不但是我們人民百姓其實會受傷很嚴重同時我們在警政署所有警政系統的員警們其實也是叫苦連天 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3620.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3630.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
每一次民眾在第一時間受傷報案一定找警政署 警察單位但警察單位總是兩手一攤不是因為他們不辦而是他們真的不知道怎麼辦 權限有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3632.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3658.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
蘇發部怎麼去協助警政署怎麼合作我們現在這個網站通報查詢網事實上就在解決源頭的問題因為我們現在我們蘇發部有網站通報查詢網然後內政部那邊有165的我們來看你剛剛說這個APP就是為了要協助所以目前下載量5.4萬次通報件數超過61萬件下架了30萬件這個是一個成績好成績但是我們看一下這個網站你們現在這個網站點進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3660.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3686.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
把這些詐騙訊息的相關的資料我們把它覆蓋住我點進去以後其實是無法知道我到底哪一個是詐騙訊息哪一個是廣告啊你自己有使用過嗎國民黨有幾位委員要求我們把這個訊息把它拿掉沒關係部長我請教一下今天每一個人都會有不同的要求跟看法跟方向我們也很希望把這些資料放上去你自己去看過以後覺得現在這樣使用是可以的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3686.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3706.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們還是希望把它改善這樣好不好那我會跟所有的委員我們努力的去共同給我們一個就如同您所講的因為每一位委員對我們的期望都不一樣當初大家一定都看到不同的方向希望他好嘛那現在運行一段時間之後可能有再看到問題你把一份改善的報告送來我們委員會好不好沒有問題再來我看到你這個APP最近我看到這個相關的評論大概使用觀感都是一星都給了一星 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3713.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3741.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那甚至於還有人質疑說你過去花了六千萬這個比大學資工系的學生設計還差啦那你跳出來說我們六千萬一千三百五十萬抱歉喔一千三百五十萬也很多我必須講就是說這邊很多的我們都懷疑是詐騙集團來給我們一心的評論所以你們也被詐騙了因為那個詐騙集團我們就在打擊詐騙集團那我已經下架了三十多萬件所以你們在打擊詐騙集團然後這個事情也達到我們的目的詐騙集團也來干擾你們是這樣意思嗎對啊就是這樣子啊連你們都受到詐騙集團的干擾了是啊是啊沒錯我的天哪 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3742.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3756.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我的天哪好所以現在的意思是說這些所謂的這些這個負面的觀感啦一心啦等等啦不是你們自己的洗版都是詐騙集團來的我不敢講是全部是啦但是我們合理的懷疑這真是一個不得了的事情啊對好那所以我說今天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3758.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3762.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有這樣的狀況我們就要想辦法優化APP做出來了嘛不斷地檢討優化滾動式不管大家有什麼意見滾動式所以改善計畫要出來那最後一點很重要MetaMeta現在看起來因為我們提供它很多的數據所以我們也訓練出一個AI的攔阻計畫目前我們有一個好成績就是說我們已經攔阻了超過780萬則這個台灣的詐騙的訊息我覺得非常棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3783.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3804.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那這個詐騙群很多來自柬埔寨所以他們也跟美國公司有講了那看看我們怎麼做所以也查獲這個太子集團超過百億的一個比特幣資產的這個案子嘛那這個我要講一件事喔Meta它是使用我們的數據來做分析所以就是查扣這些東西那其中啊這個比特幣有很多是我們台灣的民眾受傷被詐騙的金額拿去買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3807.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3835.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們有沒有辦法透過外交部跟法務部我們去把這些民眾被受詐的金額要回來一些有沒有機會這個他們講我們非常希望做這件事情但是真的很難因為他已經變成真的很難嗎的確我跟委員解釋就是說已經都是在比特幣他都弄在一起了你也分不清楚這個比特幣裡面哪些是台灣從台灣來哪些是從日本來哪些是從韓國來根本就分不清楚了那現在這些錢是由美國政府把它查扣了那我們必須去跟美國政府講 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3836.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3858.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
困難問題它都存在但我們看2024年8月的時候當時法務部我覺得很棒啊它因為協助美國偵辦這個販毒洗錢案而且還押扣返還了這個約1600萬美元的不法資產這個過程不會比我們現在感覺輕鬆啦可是美方在扣除各項費用之後台灣還獲得分享700萬美元的這個返還 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3861.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3879.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
有成功的案例在嘛 所以速發部加油一下我們想辦法在這個案件上跟我們的外交部跟防務部再努力一下好不好我們會跟他們密切合作好 那這個案子可行不可行 我們也要一個報告來 我們委員會好不好好 我們謝謝萬美玲委員好 謝謝速發部好 接下來我們邀請李坤澤委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3893.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3920.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
謝謝林俊憲召委 請一下林部長我們要請蘇化部林部長委員早安部長好 在網路以及數位快速發展的時代我們一直有一個擔憂就是資訊安全的架構跟不上這樣一個網路數據的快速的這樣的一個流動的狀況是 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3922.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3951.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
近期我們看到有跨境電商以及政黨的各自外洩引起國人的這個相關的擔憂那我們看到在這樣一個狀況之下在技術的這樣的一個發展的過程裡面大家都急迫追求這樣一個商品短期開發的速度但是相關的技術的資安的這樣的一個配備 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3952.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3969.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
以及準備是跟不上這樣的一個開發的速度所以我們看到有很多資安外洩的各自外洩的嚴重狀況那當然有兩個問題我們必須要去重視第一個都沒有辦法去及時發現這樣一個風險就是說都是透過這樣一個駭客 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3973.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3997.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
警示或者是駭客已經提出勒索相關的這樣的狀況才發覺治安有這樣的一個狀況另外一個就是在於我們這樣一個跨境電商他們的這個母公司都是在其他地方例如新加坡等等那我們這樣的一個跨境電商各自外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3998.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4008.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
全球總共有3370萬筆的資料會受到影響那確認台灣大概有20萬左右的用戶啊有遭到非法的一個接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4011.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4031.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
跨境電商號稱只有一名的台灣用戶資料遭到竊取或是儲存我們請數位部有加緊速度來瞭解這樣的一個狀況來保障民眾的個資我要請教一下部長 相關的這樣的一個調查狀況進度是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4033.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4058.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
是 這個事情那個就是之前我們發現這個案子以後我們就馬上去調查那剛開始就是這您所說的這個跨境電商跟我們講都沒有台灣的資料受到那個就是被存取那事實上後來我們那個經過我們庶產署不斷的努力之後我們請第三方的機構去認證就發現是說事實上的確是有超過20萬筆的資料被 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4062.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4086.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
被存取那這邊想說所謂只有一名台灣用戶這個我必須說明這個是在那個犯案者的電腦上後面只找到一筆剩下一筆那個資料其他是被刪除了我們不知道但是其實我們據我們所知不只一筆不是只有一筆台灣的個資遭到那個遭到那個駭客的那個閱讀這個是必須跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4087.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4106.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那相關蘇華部對這件事情後續處理的態度是如何原則是如何對我們一切依法辦理那這件事情已經進入了這個法律的那個程序那我們會依照這個相關的法律那我們是不是請那個素產署來署長說明是那檢調說明一下我們3月4號已經送行政院各支署 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4107.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4135.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
然後我們把我們行政檢查的結果請這個那家跨境電商進行說明所以我們一切都在程序當中當然我們等行政院這邊召開會議來在會中說明好 保障民眾的個資這也是數位部一個重要的責任那必須加緊相關的督促的工作另外我一再的提醒林部長我們對於數位主權的開發以及重視當然數化部現在已經建立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4136.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4148.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
台灣主權AI的訓練餘料庫那大概規模大概是11億的2 case的這樣的一個資料的集中那來源大概涵蓋是200個政府機關那 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4151.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4174.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我要請教部長說11億的2case相較於國際的這種主流模型動輒都是塑造的這樣的2case那差距是數千倍以上而且更關鍵的我們的雨料的這些來源是政府機關我想我們對於量少是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4176.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4204.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
偏差更是一個嚴重的問題因為你都集中在政府機關那我們量少又偏重在政府機關我們有什麼競爭力來部長說明一下首先要講說我們通常那種大型語料庫像ChatterGP像Cloud這種語料庫他用的訓練資料量非常大但是裡面中文的資料量並沒有那麼多那我們現在遇到最大的困難是他大量使用中國的簡體中文的資料量那都是他們的那個觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4205.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4231.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以我們現在要加入繁體中文的資料量我們希望做一個平衡那11億個token聽起來很多但是其實相較起來我們當然覺得還不夠多所以我們接下來我們希望說在一直擴大我們現在是先從那個最簡單處理就是政府有著作權的資料包含中研院等資料我們放進來接下來我們希望民間也能提供一些資料那這個就是我們設計一個那個標準的授權條款讓民間 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4236.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4249.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
能夠訓練出有獨立判斷的模型嗎另外目前在3000多筆的資料集之中絕大部分都是政府的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4250.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4276.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
重複性很高低品質的這樣一個行政公報這樣對於台灣的數位主權提升還是有很大的一段距離我們有什麼改善的方式我們跟民間團體有進一步的合作嗎我們是否會編列預算向民間團體或是文學出版單位來採購或是武藏這樣的一個高品質的語料來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4277.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4293.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這件事情我們之前跟這些大型語言模型的公司像Google等跟他們討論問他們說為什麼你都不用台灣的這個繁體中文語料他就跟我們講說兩個原因第一個是中國的簡體中文語料量比較大第一個量比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4293.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4315.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
第二個是因為中國那邊比較不注重著作財產權所以他們用那邊的語料去訓練就是很安全的不會有被告不會有任何的糾紛但是台灣是一個注重著作財產權的國家然後他們在乎的其實不是錢而是談判的成本因為他必須去跟每一家的那個每一個作者去談部長你現在就提到重點了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4316.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4336.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
相關於著作權我們對於數位主權未來的開發及訓練的過程裡面這是一個很嚴肅而且是一個很麻煩的議題沒錯那樹花不好在114年8月已經有提出相關的促進資料創新利用的發展條例它是一個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4337.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4354.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那這項草案的核心就是在於開放資料跟共享資料而且是引用一種概念叫資料利他的這樣的一個概念那鼓勵民間無償的提供相關的資料但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4355.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4372.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
著作權法我們現行的草案沒有去處理到著作權法裡面啊重置權的一個爭議啊是沒錯就是說因為我們目前都是依賴啊這個很模糊的第65條啊有關於合理使用的這個條款那這個會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4376.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4402.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
主權AI的開發跟訓練面臨高風度的法律風險就是說著作權法沒有提供明確的這樣的一個資料探勘的豁免那很容易我們國家花了數十億數十億開發的這種台版的大語言模型或是相關主權的模型 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4402.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4429.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
他的訓練過程裡面會很容易陷入這種非法重製的這樣一個灰色地帶如果民間團體他們集體來提告如果這種集體訴訟法院判定我們是侵權問題很嚴重因為國家級花了幾十億所建立的模型很容易就被法院下令要永久封存 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4430.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4452.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
是或是所謂的銷毀權重就是刪除大量的相關內容是那這會陷入一個窘境啊是沒錯美處長你們要怎麼處理啊是事實上跟委員報告基本上這種由科技創新對著作財產權帶來的衝擊通常要少則要三五年才會塵埃落定因為現在有兩方都各 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4452.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4479.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
各有道理一方面這個我們剛才講的AI產業希望能有大量的資料但是對於這個出版業還有文化界等等他們認為說這些AI模型不能無償的使用這些資料這在法律上會有一些爭議這個還在討論應該講說是討論那因為這是著作財產權是經濟部智慧財產局他們的主責那我們會密切的跟他們合作那我們在這個過程當中我們沒辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4480.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4489.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為這個整個討論要結束真的要三五年那我們現在先處理的就是比較沒有爭議的就是政府有鑄作財產權的部分這個就是我們現在在做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4491.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4517.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
部長我們現在國際AI的競爭非常的快速主流都是已經進入到快速擴張起這個階段但是我們的數位主權在相關的訓練不管是資料來源或是相關著作權法裡面相關的爭議到現在都還沒有辦法進一步的處理這個數位部必須要加緊速度是 OK 謝謝委員提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4519.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4541.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們非常感謝李坤哲委員接下來我們邀請黃建豪委員發言謝謝主席 主席我們要請林部長我們邀請蘇華部林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4548.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4569.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
部長早部長這個一開始提醒一下那個領帶歪了歪哪一邊好部長我想今天有大家討論是AI agent的這個問題當然前面幾位委員也有提到一件事情就到底現在我們因為我們今天談的已經不是CHAT GPT那個等級的AI現在談的是未來談的是AI Cloud就是這種養龍蝦AI agent的問題那當然因為這東西是 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4571.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4587.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他不再只是回答我們的問題他是可以有變成類似把我們當成一個他就是一個助理的概念嘛所以其實對於整個資安的問題或對整個社會的變遷還有後續要討論的是白領這些初級白領的工作會不會受到影響等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4587.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4616.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以第一個說第一個問題我們數位部在這件事情上面裡面扮演的角色是什麼那當然接下來看到說包含說這個企業界當然大家希望包含說現在在這個正好在舉辦的這個NVIDIA年會裡面大家當然希望說這個科技能夠盡快的往前進展那當然大家就有這個科技上進展可能在商業行為上或在這個資本上面會有更多的投入但是在面對政府我們作為政府的角色我們怎麼看待這件事情我們可以看各國的比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4618.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4641.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
各國裡面我們現在是看到比如說美國、中國、歐盟跟新加坡有幾個不同的方式可以看到美國是有要求說各家廠商至少要有一個所謂的自主性要有紅隊要有能夠自我測試那包含說昨天黃仁勳也在他的年會上也提到說他也知道說現在做這個小龍蝦對於這個企業或對於政府會有一些風險所以他們推出這個Nemo Cloud他們就要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4642.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4663.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
去做這個架構去做安全的協定所以未來會不會他推出這個時候會不會相關的這些安全協定就被他定義了那政府的角色在哪這第一件事情那再來看到不然中國當然他們有他們的特殊的文化需求所以他們說他們的AI輸出必須符合這個社會主義核心價值所以說包括說他們那些什麼豆包那些有的沒有的有些東西是不能談的談的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4664.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4675.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
會被他反駁那歐盟是更嚴格那新加坡現在是做沙盒那我要問的是說那我們台灣現在數位部的角色你是要扮演我們會比較想要走 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4676.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4701.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這幾個路線的哪一種未來我們到底在這個AI Agent的立場上面我們的態度是什麼那個委員提的這個問題非常好剛剛委員舉的這幾個國家美國中國跟歐盟他們在AI風險上面的觀點是非常不一樣的那歐盟的觀點是認為說那個AI是非常危險的所以在他們的AI基本法就是AIEU Act裡面他們列出八種不可以發展的AI形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4702.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4721.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是相對來講美國認為就是他們常常喜歡講這句話就是說太多的法規限制會阻礙科技的進展所以美國的政策從拜登政府以來就是一直是開放那尤其是在川普總統第二次上任以後他整個就是持開放的態度就是讓整個政府去 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4722.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4739.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
整個民間企業去發展不做多做限制那當然中國呢就是我們都知道就是國家說了算那我們台灣當然不能走中國的模式那我們現在是希望能在美國跟歐盟中間的模式之中找到一個平衡點那個模式會不會是新加坡模式他們也是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4740.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4761.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
開放啊 但是開放前有一個類似監理沙盒的概念嗎 那個安全沙盒的概念嗎是 事實上新加坡跟台灣還有那個日本韓國事實上都受到一些某種那個外交上的壓力因為那個歐盟跟美國的觀點不一樣那歐盟跟美國都希望我們站在他那邊所以我們現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4762.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4784.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們這些中等的民主國家我們就是有不同方法那我們現在的AI基本法制定就是採用三層的架構來管理風險最上一層是那個AI基本法中層的是那個我們的AI風險分類框架然後由這個由數碼部來定定完以後由衛福部、金管會還有交通部各自去負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4785.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4801.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
AI在醫療應用在金融應用以及在交通應用上面的作用法由他們來定所以我們這個方式這個我們稱為我們自己稱為台灣模式事實上有許多的中等民主國家都來詢問因為他覺得我們這個方法應該是個不錯的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4802.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4829.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
就是我跟部長也談過這有點像哲學問題所以我們到底要走這個美國還是歐盟路線但是當然我們的立場就是說我們現在不管是我們的市場我們的平常的這個外交關係或是所謂台灣鄉縣的民主價值裡面理論上如果用太多的這樣的監管機制其實會阻礙整個產業的發展我覺得這個是我們要去思考的除了你剛剛提到說除了外交會有些外交壓力之外但我覺得還是要站在我們產業的發展裡面去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4830.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4840.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那當然還要回答一個比較現實問題說那像對於這種AI的這個AI agent未來政府立場這種AI助理會不會跟我們的公務系統做基本做一些結合還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4842.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4870.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
會把它杜絕在公務系統的門外是 我個人我的看法是說長期來講這個一定會融入公務系統因為像這種Agentic AI對我們公務人員的辦事效率會有大幅的提升但是短期來講因為這個技術實在是太輕了當一個很新的技術出現的時候它裡面會有很多的資安風險這些資安風險還在陸續發掘當中所以我們知道最近有很多的新聞都是講到Open Cloud |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4871.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4886.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
有一些人使用OpenCloud以後一覺醒來發現OpenCloud把他的信用卡刷爆了然後這些事情都會然後昨天那個黃立勳在那個GTC裡面他有發表那個NemoCloud那他就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4886.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4904.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
很大的一個原因就是要解決這些資安風險的問題所以回到剛剛我的問題就是說如果一開始我提到如果以後比如說黃仁勳他定說他用了Nemo Kala這樣的概念去處理這個事情那未來我們的所謂的安全架構是用他的版本還是我們自己政府會有自己的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4904.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4925.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們還是要有我們自己的主導性因為坦白講那個黃立勳他們現在推出了一個Nemo Cloud的一個很大的原理我們那個業界的判斷就是他要講話語權因為那個Open Cloud是一個開源的那個模型那以前很多AI的事情都是NVIDIA說了算那現在Open Cloud已經在話語權上挑戰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4926.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4948.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那個NVIDIA所以NVIDIA趕快就推出這個Nemo Cloud要想辦法把這個話語權還有標準的制定權它想辦法把它再不能說搶回來至少它要保持它話語權沒關係那我們呢我們的態度你們什麼就是數位部有沒有要推出相關的法律上的做法還是說看這個科學的發展再決定怎麼做對 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4949.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4975.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為通常就是政府在這種科技發展上面我們就如同前面講的我們必須在美國跟歐盟中間採一個折衷點但即使是歐盟這個他們在那個AI立法上是非常的aggressive非常的很衝啦 很衝的可是他們就遇到這個事情他們也都要觀察一陣子在做立法事實上像那個歐盟的那個EU AI Act他們自己就承認他們事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4975.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4992.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他們當初在立這個法的時候完全沒有預料到會有那個CHAT GPT的出現結果他這個法律的草案一公佈出來的時候剛好CHAT GPT那個也出現了結果讓他們忙了一陣子因為法律立法的速度通常都比不上科技的發展科技會跑得比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4994.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5016.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以我們的態度就是等到後續再看的先看我們會先看業界比如說Nemo Cloud執行的狀況怎麼樣再催促相關的狀況好那接下來我們看到我們來看一下其實黃仁駿定義了幾件事情就是說他對於這個AI產業他有所謂能源晶片基礎設施模型應用是那我想問的是說我們對數位部你的角色就是我們台灣因為能源當然不給你管啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5016.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5032.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
是但是晶片基礎設施模型應用這些可能是數位部要做的事情但我們到底台灣在這個整個AI產業裡面我們台灣的這個定位部長你覺得我們在晶片還是在基礎設施還是在模型還是在應用要發揮我們的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5033.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5059.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
如果用這個架構來講的話事實上就有一個很重要的事情就是我們台灣必須建立我們自己AI的算力那原因是什麼呢就我們剛才很多 包含您還有很多委員都問到就是這個管轄權的問題如果說所有這些算力中心這些AI model都在海外的話我們在法律上是管不到的所以我們認為說至少政府使用的AI模型它這個必須是在境內這個也是主權AI的另外一個很重要的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5061.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5086.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這個部長如果這樣講的話我們看到下一頁我們看到這個數字的部分當然現在我們提出一百億這十年期的這個計畫是十一百億台幣聽起來很多但是放在全球規模它就是三億美元左右的這個資金啦是那跟我們旁邊的中國然後跟美國跟歐盟或是跟我們主要競爭所謂主要競爭對的日本韓國日本韓國的金額十二兆新台幣三零二兆新台幣相比其實我們一百億新台幣相對還是少非常非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5087.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5107.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那再來是這個大型資料中心目前看起來都是主要都是外商Meta Microsoft然後AWS Google在台灣設資料中心是那所以我們自己的所謂的主權或是我們的地端的這個資料中心我們會不會自己建立還有這個資金一百億台幣花十年期要怎麼樣去跟其他國家這些其他國家的主權做競爭這個東西要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5108.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5127.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
是 我認為這個問題也非常好因為我們事實上看到像美國的那個STARTGATE PROJECT這些錢其實也不是美國政府出的他去找那個孫正義那個日本的孫正義還有美國的一些企業這個都是民間企業在出的錢所以我們現在書發部要做的事情也是一樣那我們現在第一個是說我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5128.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5154.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
透過那個韓式的方式那我們就是把那個AI算力中心列為重大的基礎設施那這樣讓那個台灣的保險業龐大的資金這個資金非常非常龐大他都可以投資在那個算力中心的設置因為原來金管會那邊對於那個保險業資金是有很強烈的監管因為保險業的強大資金那個大量資金如果投資失敗的話引發金融風暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5155.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5183.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以他會列出說有哪些產業是可以投資的那我們現在就是透過韓市給那個發函給那個金管會我們會把這個保險業的資金開放出來那我們也跟那個那個財政部我們就把它列為重大投資方案讓民間企業可以投資這個算力中心那據我們所知我們現在事實上已經收到鴻海的那個投資的申請那這些金額也都會比較大這些金額通常都比我們政府的預算還大 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5183.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5205.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
有沒有看到鴻海明年要在台灣打造這個資料中心這個沒問題的那你有沒有預計台灣的這些應該這樣講政府出100億那你預計或是你希望我們台灣這些產業或是整體的投資金額在這個事情上面在短期內不管十年期五年期要投入多少規模你總會有一個目標設定嘛大家才知道到底我們要往什麼方向走 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5206.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5224.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
因為這些台灣的那個算力的中心的建築以政府部門來講的話大部分其實是在國科會那邊那我們這邊數發布很少的可憐我們原來只有在前年只有40片的那個那個GPU那因為去年我們的預算被砍掉了所以我們本來要再漸漸100片那都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5227.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5243.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以我們現在速發布還是只有40片的那個GPU那鴻海那個計畫應該就超過1萬片GPU那這方面還請委員多支持在預算方面我們希望今年還是能再增加100片的GPU好沒問題這個就趕快提吧好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝黃建豪召委的質詢接下來邀請林俊憲召委質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5256.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5260.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好 謝謝主席 本席要請我們速發部林部長請林部長委員早安部長早安 是部長我今天想跟你討論一個關於民生啦 民生問題啦民生問題最重要啦 尤其一些網路上的消費 網路的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5280.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5303.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
以及有很多陷阱的所謂暗黑消費爭議這兩天有一個很大的新聞美國的一個軟體很大的一個公司Adobe被美國聯邦政府送上法院後來跟政府和解了他要被罰大概48億台幣主要就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5305.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5330.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
利用他服務的消費者這個Adobe設了很多的陷阱其中最大的爭議就是比如說你要取消訂閱非常困難你要加入他的會員很容易但是你一旦加入以後你想要離開就很麻煩甚至他也隱藏了原來取消訂閱還有違約金等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5334.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5356.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那這種狀況造成很多消費者的不滿是例如包括Uber是Uber也是啊Uber你加入他很簡單啊你想要退出啦很麻煩很囉嗦啦所以美國政府發現這個問題很嚴重因為引起很大民怨很多消費者的抗議抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5357.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5362.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以就直接來處罰他 兩邊有訴訟後來這個軟體公司Adobe也承認他就跟美國政府和解 就賠了很多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5373.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5402.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
但是主要就是說這種暗黑消費啊我想請蘇華部要特別注意類似這樣的一個網路的使用網路服務或者在網路上消費消費者引起的一個爭議其中有幾個第一個很多消費者抱怨就是這些平台啦或者這些電商啊他會把重要的資訊隱藏起來或者把一些消費啊都拆得很細讓你分不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5403.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5425.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
還有我們常看到的退訂你要退出的流程很麻煩比如說你去買一張門票或者是我們經常使用的去訂一間旅館你會發現到最後你付的錢比你在這個APP在網路上訂的價格高很多因為它裡面它沒告訴你比如說你去日本你訂一間旅館 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5427.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5441.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
日本訂旅館是有稅金的你也不知道稅金有幾%要抽多少還有它的一個手續費所以你可能到最後你以為你訂了一個10塊錢的你付錢的時候可能是遠超於10塊13塊 14塊不一定那這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5446.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5474.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
讓消費者在資訊不清楚的狀態下我們稱為暗黑消費模式啦最近的爭議很多啦部長你對這個事情有看法是委員提到這個問題真的是實在是非常不對這些電商不應該這樣做那我們也注意到了剛好我昨天已經簽到一個文就是我們那個素產署他們就是去修改了這個定型化契約電商的定型化契約以後就是要求這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5475.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5490.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
電商他不能把這些付款設定為預設就不能預設就是說我又使用這個服務他就開始扣我的款這個就不行那是不是請我們素產署的林署長補充說明一下好那等一下我待會讓他一起回答啦我們再請署長一起回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5492.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5512.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
第二個我說呢退訂的很麻煩我再舉個例子給你看你會比較清楚像那個庫篷這是庫篷的退訂程序我去試一下你如果要加入大概三個步驟就完成那你要取消你看你要先到設定的先進去設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5514.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5536.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
然後點選會員方案然後再訂取消那取消的話不是這樣就結束喔他會再挑一些優惠的方案告訴你再吸引你如果你不要他會再警示你你就會損失有多少然後你就會被降級囉哩吧嗦啦九個步驟你才可以退出啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5538.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5565.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
委員長這我感同身受因為我之前就是走剛剛走過這個流程對那這個其實是一個對消費者很麻煩那很不公平的一種類似消費陷阱那至於我們要請署長你說的我跟署長交換一下這韓國跟歐盟他已經很明確訂出那什麼叫暗黑消費模式他訂出有19種我不知道我們政府有沒有這樣的一個認定標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5567.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5581.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
比如說就像我剛提的你要取消的那個步驟很麻煩或者是你隱藏一些支出費用那消費者在點選的時候他並不清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5583.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5602.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
或者是說消費者沒有購買的一些東西突然間因為你不小心誤觸什麼他會等於跳到你的購物車裡面所以你結帳的時候你如果沒有注意啊你會多買一些原本不是你需要的或者是說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5603.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5615.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
強迫你自動續約你不清楚狀況下你會被續約還有消費者買到的產品跟最初你看到廣告中的產品不同等等 有19項來 署長你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5618.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5633.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
謝謝委員多問我們有沒有這樣的一個類似的一個研究我們目前發現就跟委員講的這樣民眾最大的是三個困擾第一個是定型化契約他們寫的太密太小第二個是這個取消定略的流程太複雜第三個是自動的扣款 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5634.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5660.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那這三個我們因為我們管理這些電商是要用消保法所以用定期化契約我們在新修訂的定期化契約已經把這三個問題解決了包括他在定期化契約裡面一些重要的資訊要用大的文字另外的話他取消訂業的流程要簡化那第三個是要消費者明確同意才能扣款所以這在我們新修訂的定期化契約已經農入那剛剛委員講那個我們已經在要求他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5661.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5679.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那我再給你參考你看國外他把這個暗黑的消費陷阱他寫的訂得非常詳細你看他包括你去引誘消費者去點擊不確定是否會廣告的東西那基本上是個廣告有時候他會用一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5680.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5704.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
虛假的東西比如說你要如何維護你的身體的健康怎麼樣等等引誘你點閱實際上都是要強迫你去接受一些廣告訊息或消費等等我希望你剛講的那只是三個重要的那個樣態啦那暗添消費陷阱裡面有非常多的陷阱啦所以很多國家都只好定法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5705.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5734.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
去明定限制它 我跟你講歐盟啦 美國啦 韓國啦韓國甚至那個法案名稱就寫得更清楚啦線上暗黑模式 自我管理指引那就針對19種 就我剛剛給大家參考的那有19種 你在網路上這個常看見的守法 它就會進行裁法那我國啦 我們台灣目前是沒有專法啦但是我們其實有一些相關的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5735.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5761.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
如果跨部會你們跟公平會再合作一點的話其實是可以更進一步來保護我們的消費者例如像我們公平交易法的21條和25條等等那這能再請部長要來在這邊要多多的來注意相關網路上因為現在網路的消費或使用網路服務已經是人民生活非常重要的一個一部分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5761.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5774.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
是非常謝謝委員的提醒那我們非常同意那我們會往這個方向持續加強改善好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝林俊憲專委的質詢好非常感謝接下來我們邀請陳樹越委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5797.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5801.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
謝謝主席 請主席邀請林部長好 我們請蘇發部林部長委員長早安部長早我們知道現在科技的進步 那這個訊息也是非常的就是變化非常快所以對於我們國人的日常 其實使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5824.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5852.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個網路去查詢他想了解的事情這是非常稀鬆平常的事情我想應該在座每個人都會有這種習慣想要了解一個人或者一件事情就會用關鍵字去搜尋可是我們現在就是會發現說我們如果用Google去用關鍵字搜尋的時候它跳出來的相關的一個資訊它就是會跳出一個AI的一個摘要這樣的狀況到底是帶來方便還是困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5853.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5870.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我想在這邊跟部長分享幾個案例最近服務處就是接到一個民眾的陳情他來服務處陳情就是說要我們協助他跟這個勞保局申請就是這個代償就是向勞保局申請代償 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5870.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5882.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那他提供的資料就是說目前這個代償的期限可以放寬到五年內那可以追溯試用這樣子他拿這個資訊來可是我們跟他了解之後發現說事實上這個是在2024年的時候這個勞保局確實有希望針對這個部分來做一個修訂然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5894.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5919.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
並做預告可是還沒預告就已經引起很多不同的意見所以這個部分他就暫緩事實上連預告都沒有那這個民眾他可能之前就是有遇到這種狀況所以他現在他希望能夠申請這個勞保局的一個代償他自己去搜尋之後得到訊息是可以就是在五年內都可以所以他就來要求我們協助提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5920.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5945.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
申請代償那我們剛剛說這個是AI的資訊是不正確的可是他還是跟我們爭辯他是確信不疑說這明明他查詢的資料就是這樣所以我覺得說這個這樣子的狀況會造成民眾就是他接到了錯誤的訊息然後也會對我們政府可能會產生一種誤解或者是不信任這是一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5946.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5974.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那另外一個案例是這是網友分享的就是說有網友他查詢說他在日本他想知道說在橫濱有幾家這個Unicoro的店他要怎麼去結果他就用Google去搜尋跳出來的給他的建議是要他先去桃園火車站搭乘高鐵到東京然後搭乘這個JR山手線到品川站 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5975.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6002.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個真的是錯的非常的離譜所以就是說針對這個生成式AI的這樣子的高錯誤率許多民眾他往往就是不經查證或者是不知道查證然後或者是他查證了沒有辦法去分辨這個真假的一個狀況所以導致民眾接收到這樣子一個錯誤的訊息甚至還深信不疑這種狀況我們處法部這邊有沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6004.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6023.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
硬硬的想法跟委員說明一下首先這個問題事實上是一直都存在但是有一些改善我們知道在六個月或者是一年以前的話我們用AI去查一些問題那常常都是錯誤大概超過一半那我們就講說它是幻覺那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6025.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6046.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
他已經很大的改善但是這個改善以後其實又帶來另外一個新的困擾就是以前我很容易就跟民眾解釋說你不要相信這個AI產生的資訊因為大部分是錯的民眾也都能接受但是現在麻煩就是在於說他現在大概是九成甚至於九成五是對的那百分之五到百分之十是錯的所以我們要提醒民眾就像剛剛我們看到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6047.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6073.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
委員的那張投影片上面老保局的AI summary下面有一個連結要請民眾就是說你重要的事情要點那個連結事實上委員顯示出來兩個Google的搜尋的結果上面都有一個鏈條的icon一個小的圖示只要民眾點那個連結的話你就可以看到原來真實的網站的資訊所以這個要切實提醒民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6075.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6091.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那就是說針對這種Google它將AI摘要放在搜尋結果的最上方這樣子就是會讓民眾誤解誤信說這個就是一個正確的資訊所以這樣子的一個顯示我覺得是不是有可能說讓它移除或者是關閉 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6094.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6112.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
事實上目前的狀況 因為我了解好像是使用者可以選擇他不使用這個AI的那個summary是不是請林署長說明一下那現在的AI有剛剛委員講的搜尋之後AI再要在前面嘛 後面就是以前傳統的搜尋結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6113.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6129.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
另外一個你也可以直接選擇AI模式所以它目前是消費者是可以選擇單獨的AI模式也可以參考AI摘要或者不參考AI摘要直接往下到傳統的搜尋結果那AI摘要都會註明出處所以目前的狀況是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6131.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6145.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
當然這就是我們比較理想性的一個想法可是很多民眾他還是會搞不清楚他就是會誤信說這個就是一個正確的資訊我想這就是說民眾在搜尋網路的相關訊息的時候可能會有這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6149.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6168.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
在運用AI的部分那另外就是說如果民眾他在使用就是AI直接就是使用AI的就是包括機器人這一類的設備的時候可能會有另外一個更危險的狀況就是在美國就是發生說 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6171.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6194.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就是民眾跟AI機器人在聊天聊到最後是被引導去自殺的所以這個是更嚴重的一種狀況所以包括我剛剛講的AI災藥這個部分其實涉及到的都是民眾的嗜毒的一個能力所以這個部分我們速發部有在做做的狀況程度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6199.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6218.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這些事情我們當然是會盡量利用各種機會包含各種記者會或者是出一些報告那我們都會提醒民眾要注意這個事情那我們當然我們有很大的挑戰就是實在是AI的進展速度太快了我們如果說立法的話我們通常立法可能要一年的時間但是一年之內AI它的那個改變就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6219.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6246.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
就是非常非常的巨大所以我們想辦法就是盡量利用這種除了立法以外我們就是利用這種跟民眾宣導我們找各種機會去宣導我們也會跟美國的這些AI大廠像Google像Microsoft等等因為他們在台灣他們都有公司我們會持續跟他們溝通就是要求他們做好對民眾保護的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6249.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6270.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
第二要補充的就是我們一年會辦實機場在全國各地去辦理那主要有三個部分第一個是委員關係的AI可能會帶來的風險跟民眾交易第二個是治安可能會帶來的風險那第三個是詐騙可能帶來的風險所以我們一年會在全國各地辦實機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6273.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6299.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
都是會結合大型的這個譬如說台灣燈會啊我們校園的真材博覽會這些去做這樣的廣宣甚至直接到小學我覺得這樣聽起來好像效果有限其實之前我在委員會就是相關的議題的時候我是有建議說我們應該是要結合學校的教育就是結合教育部去做這方面的一個試讀能力的判讀才對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6301.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6324.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
是沒有問題謝謝委員提醒我們往這方面努力跟教育部合作加強在校園內的宣導OK好那我再最後一個問題就是說我們知道像AI的運用是非常的方便可是我們發現就是說有關這個大型AI就是缺乏我們台灣本土的語料庫因為大部分使用的是英文或者是簡體中文 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6326.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6342.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那之前我應該在上個會期之前也曾經提過這個問題那我們也很高興看到就是說我們目前速發部有一個語料庫上線到今天應該差不多三個月那目前的規模大概怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6343.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6369.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
現在我們已經在這個台灣主權AI訓練語料庫我們已經蒐集了超過11億個token就相當於11億個中文字那這個只是花了兩個多月的時間我們就蒐集到這麼多那我們會持續的去擴大這個規模那我們現在大部分人這些我們現在這些資料都是來自於政府機構因為政府機構擁有著作權的話這個事情最容易處理那接下來我們會想辦法把這個語料庫擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6371.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6400.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那也會去徵集民間就是民間的那個作者包含我自己也是作者我就會把我的著作權就是捐出來放在這個語料庫那所謂捐出來不是說我放棄著作權而是我會簽一個授權條款就是將來如果有人拿我的這個著作去訓練AI模型的話我不會去告他基本上概念就是這樣子那這個不是強制性的如果說有人不願意捐出來有人希望就是說用收費的這個我們也會努力幫他們就是去 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6401.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6425.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
就是解決這些問題我們知道AI的運用其實對民眾來說是非常的生活化我們現在有發現一個問題就是說如果民眾在打119的時候他用台語來說他的需求的時候現在幾乎都是用語音判別AI語音判別所以這種狀況的話他可能沒有辦法去判別 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6427.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6450.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以我們未來的語料庫有沒有辦法擴充到台語或者是客語的這個部分我們是不是請資料司司長跟委員報告就是說在這個語料庫裡面教育部的台語文的資料他們現在已經積極的在籌劃當中那也有一些央名教導老師就台語的這個部分來做AI的模型那等到時期成熟的時候我們會對外來發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6451.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6462.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那大概還要多久時間我在猜應該是上半年就可以完成了就是今年上半年對對對是OK好謝謝好那謝謝謝謝部長還有司長謝謝好我們謝謝陳樹岳委員好接下來我們邀請徐富奎委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6483.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6489.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們林部長好 請林部長好 習主委發言後 我們休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6493.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6514.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
部長早今天就我們相關的業務有幾個問題要請教一下部長那我想首先我們還是要關心這個最重要海底電纜的一個安全性的問題我想前陣子我們有主動有跟部長反映的最近就是在不管是網路上面或者一些相關的訊息上面也有發現有一些不明船隻發現我們屏東的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6516.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6537.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
海嵐區的部分我想這個也感謝部長第一時間我們就主動的配合我們海巡也好NCC相關單位我們有去做了一個監控的處理但是我想這個東西我們也不能就是因為發生事情就有這樣的一個應變作為不能那麼倉促應該有一個完整的一個跨部會的合作機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6538.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6557.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那尤其我們現在台灣是進入一個高度數位化的一個社會我們不管是每天用的網路也好通訊也好金融系統也好其實就是建立在一個這個海底電纜的一個很關鍵的一個基礎設施我想這個部長認同是非常認同對那尤其目前我們全球 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6557.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6575.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有超過9成以上的國際資料的一個傳輸都仰賴海裡電纜的一個運作那台灣目前也有15條的國際電纜10條的國內海纜所以我想這個是我們對外聯繫很重要的一個數位的一個生命線但是因為隨著這個國際的一個情勢改變或是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6579.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6598.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
不明的一個恐攻的危機我想我們也不能去大意啦我想怎麼樣對這個海嵐的一個安全的一個防護我想這也是我們相關部會應該要必須要正式的一個課題那針對這樣的一個監控的一個預警機制我想蘇發部怎麼樣跟我們相關部會來合作請部長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6600.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6625.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
是委員這個問題我們非常重視那對於這個海嵐維護我們分成是事前事中以及事後的這個處理首先事前就是我們第一個我們會加強監控機制那我們現在已經是應該是由中華電信那邊就是設立一個那個即時的預警接制就是看到那個有任何的那個國際海嵐發生故障的時候我們可以在第一時間我們就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6625.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6652.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
然後再來在市中的話我們當然是說要已經發生了那我們就趕快去那個那個調派這個海纜維修船盡快把這個海纜把它修好那我們現在用的方式因為海纜這個哪時候斷掉不一定那我們是加入了所謂的船團就是有幾個國家的這個電信公司在合在一起加入一些等於說共同的組織然後這個船團裡面有好幾艘的這個海纜維修船那 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6653.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6674.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
發生到遇到這種海卵斷掉的時候我們就趕快協調這些船團就派船去修理那我們這邊任信司這邊也做了一些機制就是說你如果修得越快的話他可以拿到的錢越多就是我們以前我們都搶時間對搶時間他時間越修得越快我們給他的錢越多這個地方是不是請任信司司長補充說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6675.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6700.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
謝謝委員跟我們這個機會來跟各位來報告基本上我們事前事中事後大概部長也都談了那事前部分其實我們現在也做了一些的預估的應變措施我們以平衡為例在委員的爭取下像琉球的部分我們就加了微波除了海南以外還有微波所以其實這就是一個應變的也謝謝委員的支持像琉球我們就加了這個所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6701.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6729.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
事前防護中除了減少監控以外還增加它的這個所謂的替代的能量這都要在事前做那當然權益輪的控管我們也在加強那跨部會的合作也在加強所以立刻的海運署就能夠知道這些訊息那四中應署部分我們大概現在就除了能夠立刻的復原加速維修以外那當然更重要的要把這些這些違法分子深自依法所以我們已經移送了四個其中兩例也有正式的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6730.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6758.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那事後經濟我們現在蘇發部也針對所有的海嵐的狀況去做統計分析跟他可能的預估的危害然後做事前的預估的防範那大概我們以這個方式來做那當然還有一個很重要我們跟跨國的合作因為其實國際合作海嵐船其實在維修部分需要海嵐船國際合作那其他的比如說像這些權益輪也必須要有國際合作來一起來共同防範 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6760.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6784.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我想這個權益的問題我們必須要正視啦尤其這些用假的外籍的名義在做什麼不法的勾當我想這我也有跟航空局講過了我們一定要嚴密來監控尤其這個部分謝謝委員那我再請教一下那如果萬一啦這個海濫發生斷裂那我們這個剛剛有講我們有一個很緊急的應變機制嘛那平均目前的修復時間大概會有多久的時間是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6787.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6806.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
包委員確實我們現在國際海岸平均修復時間是32天那國內海岸的話平均修復是110天這樣會不會對我們整個台灣的這個通訊這些運作造成很大的影響時間蠻長的呢是那包委員因為我們國際海岸有15條事實上各登陸點其實都不只一條海岸在提供服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6807.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6836.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那第二個就是國內的海岸其實大概都平均兩到三條不備援所以雖然可能有一間斷的話其他有海岸備援以外那我們再加強微波就好像琉球一樣我們在爭取琉球我們現在今年會增加兩條的微波到琉球去所以就用這種各種不斷的替代措施當然還有衛星的各離島也有配備部分的衛星所以其實從海岸的好幾條去做備援以外那還就微波 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6837.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6853.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就藉由微波備援那更進一步用衛星來備援一層一層來迭代謝謝對我想這個必須要加快來辦理我們不能只有仰賴海底電來一定要有其他的配套措施是好謝謝那部長我想目前我們台灣的這個整個這個AI |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6854.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6878.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我想這個也如火如荼在進行當中那我想這也是一個全球的趨勢那台灣來講當然我們在半導體製程上面具有這個世界級的一個實力我們有護國神山台積電但是在AI的軟體應用跟資料的治理方面我想我們還有很多努力的空間那針對這個部分我想我還是要提醒部長啦科技競賽不是只有方向對 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6879.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6891.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
速度也很重要當然那針對這樣的一個政策的一個速度我想部長有沒有什麼樣的一個做法因為我們知道這個速度很重要所以也就是這個原因我們認為說這種軟體產業的創新突破與發展必須是來自於民間 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6897.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6921.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
自由的競爭公平而自由的競爭這個事情不能一切都要等政府來做事實上我們看全世界就是說包含美國中國即使中國那種社會主義國家他們在那個軟體方面都是交由民間去發展因為只有民間才有這個活力才有這個靈活度才有這個速度可以盡快的在AI產業裡面發展所以我們現在速發布的最重要職責就是創造一個適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6922.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6934.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
AI產業發展的生態系所以我們有五大政策工具分別是算力資料人才行銷以及資金那我們就希望說讓很多的這個AI新創家會選擇在台灣創業 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6938.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6964.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
然後他們在創業的過程中也能很順利然後他們也那個就減低他們的風險因為創業一般很高興說我自己就創業過嘛而且想像說我一天要當一個那個賺大錢但是另外一方面我想說萬一失敗了我不要那個破產等等所以譬如說我們現在提供算力就是目的就是這樣就是提供免費的算力讓民間的創業家去做實驗做實驗成功了那我們跟他拍拍手 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6965.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6979.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
他一定會找到更好的資金如果他失敗了那也不會因為這樣他把因為把房子抵押掉讓他的人生就發生一個很大的問題部長我想我還是要再提一個事情因為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6980.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6996.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我的選區是在屏東縣我們是農漁業的大縣那我想這個AI不是只有運用在科技方面為了怎麼樣幫忙我們的這些尤其我們現在很多年輕的青農也好年輕的漁民也好他們越投入到故鄉 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6997.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7022.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
來從事農業跟漁業的一個行業那怎麼樣藉由這個AI的一個導入能夠讓他們在不管是這個產量方面的預測病蟲害管理甚至是漁場的監控整個一個風險的管理上面我們這部分有沒有這樣的一個結合我們農業部相關部會有沒有這樣一個輔導的一個機制甚至怎麼樣讓他們能夠精進一個這個科技方面的一個作為有沒有這樣一個配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7023.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7052.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
是我們在速發部一直有關於對於這個農漁業有各種的那個各種的計畫各種的補助那我們就希望說有更多的那個民間的企業民間的那個發明家創業家他能投入這個產業那這些應用會有非常多那我們希望說這些公司在幫我們政府幫我們那個不管是中央政府地方政府解決這些問題的時候他本身也能創業 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7053.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7067.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那個能賺到錢而且我希望說在台灣成功以後這些做出來的這些AI的工具還能外銷到國外去我想我們可以來品中建立一個成功的model模式來做推廣啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝徐副委員謝謝林部長好那我們現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7096.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7097.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7123.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7136.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7143.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7143.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7172.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7172.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7194.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7195.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那如果是那個包裹 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7713.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7717.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好 現在我們繼續開會我們有請邱若驊委員發言謝謝 再為主席有請速發部林部長我們請速發部林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7736.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7759.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
邱委員早安部長早部長全世界都在談台灣is the AI hub當然對機場還有產業來說一方面雖然感到驕傲但同時也感到焦慮為什麼會感到焦慮我們確實有世界最強的晶片產業當然回答還有台積電把台灣推向硬體核心的時候我們政府在法治環境還有算力還有能源基礎建設有沒有跟上如果政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7760.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7784.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
他沒有跟上的話那沒有跟上他的速度沒有跟上技術發展的時候呢台灣只有可能在這一波全球AI的發展競爭中出現我們有最強的晶片可是卻沒有相應的治理寬窄還有足夠的電力建設以及電力建設所以本席先從治理還有基礎的基礎建設的面向就叫部長部長把這件事應該是產業他發展的第一心玩不是他的不明確性來源嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7785.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7798.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那目前全球AI治理已經進入高風險的時代了像歐盟的法案EU AI Act它在2024年正式生效它將AI依風險等級分類管制那美國也透過了行政命令來強制要求AI巨頭進行安全測驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7800.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7815.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那我們回頭來看台灣現在目前雖然AI基本法已經通過了三讀並且公告但最關鍵的AI治理架構要等到今年年底才出來沒有錯那AI發展風險架構我們的AI基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7816.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7842.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
風險框架應該是在三月底四月初就會我們這邊就會抱怨了三月底四月初大概兩三個禮拜內我們就會兩三個禮拜嗎那不是要提到AI的發展是一週的單位來做計算嗎那像OpenAI的GPT還有Google的Gemini他們每年也在重寫他們的模型那如果我們治理框架你說要到三月底那馬上就上路了嗎馬上就可以業主業者了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7843.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7856.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
當然我們報院以後要看那個行政報院之後如果院合訂之後我們就會在AI基本法底下的規定的時間內去執行所以這沒有法律的真空期嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7857.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7871.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這目前不會啊我們核定之後我們就會去做而且部理會還會去協助去協助各機關去訂立相關的管理規範管理規範同樣也是在三月底嗎還是要在還有一段時間嗎那是多長一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7873.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7891.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
跟委員說明一下我們現在的AI風險管理框架事實上是三層的架構在最上層就是AI基本法這個主管機關目前是國科會在AI基本法下面我們事務發布會訂定AI風險管理框架 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7893.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7908.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
AI風險分類框架那我們書發部訂了這個AI風險分類框架之後呢那個各個部會就會依照這個風險分類框架去訂定作用法譬如說以衛福部來講他們就要訂定那個就是AI技術在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7910.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7937.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
醫療產業裡面他是怎麼樣應用怎樣規管怎樣去認證等等然後到時候發生了風險到底是由醫生負責醫院負責還是有軟體公司負責等等這個都是我們是有三層的架構那我們現在最上面那一層感謝那個立法院我們現在已經通過了AI基本法因為我們現在就趕快把這個風險封在框架做好我剛剛本身要問就是如果這段時間發生AI侵權或是技術濫用的話那速發服的權責還有他的責任機制在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7937.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7953.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
對 那現在就是說以衛福部來講的話其實他們有些作用法已經也在立法了甚至於之前在AI基本法通過之前他們甚至有一些比較沒有爭議的部分他們都已經在做了那我們當然會盡快加速整個進程 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7954.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7979.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
儘快加速那有沒有一個明確的時間因為我們同時也要問蘇巴部有沒有參考歐盟的風險分級制度是這個事情也跟委員說明一下基本上現在民主國家對於這個AI風險的管理事實上有很不同的看法美國跟歐盟的看法非常不一樣事實上我們台灣在制定那個AI基本法的時候一開始就是參照歐盟的那個AIE Act |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7980.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7994.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
可是美國那邊有非常不同的看法就如同委員上面寫的就是歐盟它事實上有列出一個不可接受之風險它列出了八種樣態的AI系統包含潛意識監控包含社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7996.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8011.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
社會信用等等這個都不准發展可是美國人他們認為說regulation hinders innovation他們認為說太多的監管會妨礙AI的發展所以美國他們是採用的方法是就是用這種AI風險分類框架的這種方式來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8012.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8036.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
現在美國跟歐盟他們的管理風險他們的成績不一樣那未來台灣的軟體廠商要如何接軌國際他們要怎麼去達成這個合規的要求所以我們後來做的方法就是在那個美國方式跟歐盟方式模式裡面我們找到一個平衡點我們叫做台灣模式就是我剛剛講的這個三層的架構因為我們認為說這個AI的風險不應該是由速發部來做一個非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8040.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8046.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那今天因為時間的關係 那還是請這邊速發布料儘快那接下來請我們國科會的副主委是 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8056.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8070.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
副主委好副主委我們常說半島敵是台灣的戲盾那我們也在確保國家的戰略優勢那最近的摩根史丹利他近期發布的報告震驚業界他指指台灣的晶片還有製造正面力電力供給不穩那產能也過度集中兩大的系統風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8071.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8099.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那我們知道AI晶片它的製造還有運算它的耗電量是穿透製成的數倍所以它會消耗台灣近10%的電力那另外台灣的天然氣儲存大大概只有12到14天那如果能源出現問題對晶片還有科技業勢必造成終極那當國科會編列10年3000億的精創台灣方案時本行沒有看到政府對於AI的算力基礎建設的設施然後還有能源配套有任何具體的保障那國科會這邊的看法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8103.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8130.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
因為能源的部分其實不算是國科會在主管不過我們在發展這個AI是因為我們要發展AI嗎你們有沒有去做過這個供電的韌性評估呢就是針對AI的算力專區是 報告員我們在對於這個算力建置的時候我們有去做這個電力的評估而且也有做跟這個台電有密切的合作去確保這個電力的供給是無庸置疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8132.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8151.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以不好意思我再請蘇發布的部長部長您剛有提到我們台灣目前的GPU算力是多少我們現在分成幾個部分就是說政府方面的話那個如果是學術界需要用的算力是由國科會這邊負責的現在目前的算力GPU是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8152.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8172.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
是40嗎?蘇發部這邊的就40片那報告中有提到要提升到140嗎?對那你認為這樣的算力夠嗎?不夠,絕對不夠那算力需要電力沒有錯吧?是那現在的電力是足夠的嗎?國科會跟蘇發部這邊的了解依照我們的了解,現在經濟部沒有跟我們說沒有說,那這樣子的算力有競爭力嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8179.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8200.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那事實上我跟委員說一下因為全世界現在大部分的算力都是民間去建立的像說美國的那個STARGATE的那個計畫那部長這邊美國的Microsoft Google Amazon Meta它的規模它單一AI它就是它的AI單一就是數萬 數萬以上沒錯 沒錯 完全沒錯那它們正朝百萬GPU發展我們台灣現在只有四萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8200.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8205.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
因為我們現在就是透過那個韓式的方式讓那個保險業的資金可以投入然後另外也那個透過韓式的方式跟那個財政部讓那個算力中心的建設列為重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8225.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8240.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以我就問一個問題我們台灣在AI在AI的定位是想要朝著什麼樣的方向前進我們是要做代工嗎應該不只是代工吧因為台灣我們剛才稍早我就有提到吧大家都在討論我們台灣是AI所以現在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8242.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8262.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
鴻海已經遞建了他們要建那個算力中心規模是一萬片的CPU我們現在算力不夠嘛對一萬片就是民間他會那個現在鴻海單單一個案子那什麼時候可以達成這個要問那個鴻海我們希望說因為民間的速度會比政府快很多也有跟企業在討論嘛是是是那總是會有一個期程吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8263.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8286.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對 那當然是說企業這個期程我們政府不能確定他一定是哪時候要蓋完但是他現在已經遞件了那我們現在就是希望他們盡快開工然後幫他解決所有土地電力等等的問題讓他們趕快開工 那我們這邊不是 沒關係 也是因為時間的關係那我們現在的競爭力應該只是陪跑的程度吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8287.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8316.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
一萬片GPU一萬顆那個GPU也不算小了一萬顆繼續是我們的目標我們現在才40嘛因為我們的預算都被砍掉了本來去年我們要 國科會在進行討論提供本行AI算力基礎建設尤其是能源韌性的評估報告兩週內OK 好 謝謝那請委員多支持我們的預算那40片是前年的去年我們要買100片那個預算被刪掉了所以我們去年一片都沒有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8318.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8319.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
接下來我們邀請何新淳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8345.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8351.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
謝謝主席林俊憲召委 我們是會請部長 宜靜部長我們請中華部林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8356.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8376.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
部長好我想今天的這個題目那我把定位強化台灣AI治理基礎建設全力發展台中AI軟硬體產業那第一個部分呢其實我是想問比較有關民生的問題尤其大家對數位發展部期許很深的是有關這個防止詐騙打擊詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8378.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8402.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
尤其在這個打詐國家隊裡面數位發展部是非常重要的一個部會那層出不窮連我自己本人也被代言了也被偽造了那也在不知不覺當中呢怎麼會服務處會接到有人打電話來說何新淳你賣那個衣服賣到哪裡來我放一段影片給你看是 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8404.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8420.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
以前大家覺得琵琶就是直接吃但其實琵琶大部分竹鹽甘草才最大程度發揮它的作用含有豐富的維生素胡蘿蔔素30纖維部長這聲音有點像我吧很像我第一次自己聽到看到這個影片聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8421.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8435.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這聲音怎麼那麼像我啊我嚇了一跳你知道嗎然後呢我仔細的看連那個表情都還會跟著動然後呢好像是真的我自己在講話在推銷這一個產品一樣不過再仔細看久一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8441.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8468.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
發現聲音到後來稍微有點不太一樣了第二個他的影片的製造確實有一些短髮髮型之間的變動看出來是剪輯的或者是AI生成的但是一般民眾並不會像我因為我是被害者所以我很認真的在看這個影片才知道這個跟我不太一樣一般人看不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8468.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8482.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以我在第一時間人家告訴我說你在代言我要想買琵琶我說沒有沒有我要澄清的時候我馬上第一個報案第二個我也發圖卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8484.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8507.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
也在地方的各個群組裡面告訴說核心純沒有代言任何產品這是假的我支持我們太平生產的琵琶農特產品我絕對全力支持也願意行銷代言但是呢絕對不能像這樣子被這個冒名然後代言所謂的竹鹽琵琶而且我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8509.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8533.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
在彰化有民眾真的去買了你看他在手機上顯示他真的去訂購了訂購來之後呢上面是簡體字的一個產品是那我現在要說的是這個網路詐騙冒名代言層出不窮下架的速度我認為趕不上下一頁為什麼我認為啊以前大家覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8535.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8550.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
來下一頁因為第一個我說我有報案警政署還有呢調查局我有報案那他們跟速發部之間的一個通報的下架速度可不可以更快這第一個我的問題第二個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8552.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8571.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我的那個影片聽說還在網路上流傳這個我不知道怎麼可以徹底的清除掉我不知道這要問專業第二個我發現一個問題我如果是一般民眾我發現我被詐騙了我被冒名了那請問一下我到底是通報165還是通報這個數位發展部的網站通報查詢網 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8577.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8596.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這兩個是不一樣的喔不同的管道不同的功能但是對一般民眾來講是搞不清楚的所以我如果通報了165那到底你的網站的通報查詢網有沒有或者是我上網查了網站通報網那我165這邊我是不是要再重複再去通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8598.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8617.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
是跟委員說明一下基本上我們跟內政部警政署的分工是這樣是說內政部警政署那個165的這個網站基本上是報案所謂的報案就是說犯必須已經有犯罪事實了才他們才受理那我們這個速發部這個網站通話查詢網我們是處理所有可疑的網路的詐騙訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8618.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8638.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以如果委員這邊看到訪茂您的訊息趕快就把網址貼到我們這邊我們這邊我們的目標就是要加快處理速度我們通常是在24小時之內就可以通過可是部長這樣子不對啊這個就是我認為不合理或是不夠好的地方啊我今天通報了165 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8639.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8661.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我事實上真的就是被冒免啊被冒免了之後也確實有人受到詐騙也好或者是買到他不該買的東西拿到的東西不是他預期的東西那165到底我通報了之後能不能馬上就立案你剛剛講的是要立案了之後才能夠做下面的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8661.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8682.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
沒有沒有直接是先用我們的網站通報查詢網隨時手機拿出來隨時都可以報案就不用先去165那邊可是現在一般民眾會發生一個confuse的地方我到了你的網站通報網的時候我通報了我還是要另外再跟165通報因為你們兩個是不同的通報系統你們兩個通報系統的資訊是沒有對接的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8686.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8700.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所謂的沒有對接呢它影響的是什麼我認為如果各部各部會的相關的通報網絡可以對接的話你們的大數據是可以互相的一個聯繫然後互相的比對那才能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8701.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8725.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
徹底的把這個網絡銜接起來不僅僅是我冒名賣那個所謂的東西啦或是被冒名啦去被詐騙啦或者是呢這個打廣告我是第一個嘛名人招盜用打廣告嘛那有的還有什麼假打工真詐騙啦販賣仿冒商品啦甚至愛情詐騙等等嘛對不對我是建議啦警政署今天也有來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8726.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8735.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
你速發部可不可以跟警政署把你們網站的通報查詢網跟165的通報資訊你們如何對接還有這個大數據如何比對這個可以擴大防護網 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8743.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8767.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
還有增加民眾的便利性跟保障權益能夠及時完全同意好不好沒有問題因為這個整個打造是由內政部的那個打造中心做協調指揮的那我們是有他們有就我們書發部分配到的工作是這個那我們當然會跟內政部的做密切溝通那希望就是說跟我們也非常希望所有這些資訊都是串流在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8768.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8797.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好不好再拜託好接下來今天在講AI今天講AI治理下一頁這個黃仁勳我想大家都知道這個世界經濟論壇裡面他說AI將成為最大的基礎建設他提出了一個五層蛋糕理論那這個五層蛋糕論述我想大家都認為這個中央在AI的一個政策的一個大方向的一個推進那各部會統統都要努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8798.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8821.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
包括今天有來的國科會跟數位發展部甚至在教育部我覺得這個AI教育各個層面都非常的重要那這個基礎建設我們就分門別類各部門要如何在這個國家的整體的這個AI的策略裡面大家各盡其職趕快佈建趕快做那最重要的蛋糕最上面的一層是應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8822.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8848.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
應用將AI人力具體化體現於機器或特定的任務當中嘛這個就是台灣現在賴清德總統宣示我們是AI這個國家那卓院長AI行動內閣我們希望能做到的是台灣整體的各行各業各個產業甚至在民眾生活裡面都能夠AI化升級那他們在中間資安非常的重要安全非常的重要我之所以要問這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8849.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8867.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
當然剛剛有很多委員在講投資算力的算力中心的問題你也回答到說有我們要怎麼樣的來鼓勵民間投資加上政府的加碼那AI的模型要在地化我們又如何的來在地化但是我要講的另外一個是在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8867.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8879.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
台灣我們中央政府在世界的AI裡面占了這麼重大的地位中央在積極的佈建那地方政府也要合作嘛對不對那地方政府也要努力也要積極嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8882.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8898.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
是好所以呢我認為台灣跟台中高雄台北不管是哪一個城市通通都應該在我們整體的AI的大架構下我們各司其職但是也競爭也合作是 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8899.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8927.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我看到一個新聞陳其邁現在在美國高雄亞利桑那雄本簽約打造半導體的戰略三角他是城市競爭他也是城市合作因為呢利用台灣的優勢我們如何讓台灣的這個優勢在世界的高科技產業AI產業佔有重要的地位所以我認為一個觀念是我們是大腦也是身體因為為什麼我提這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8928.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8945.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我昨天聽到有人說台中應該這樣講昨天有人這樣講我要還原先還原一下這個台北是AI大腦台中是打造AI身體然後說要怎麼樣合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8946.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8966.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我覺得城市之間大腦跟身體是主從之關係城市之間沒有主從之分啦城市之間是既競爭又合作啦我不認同他昨天講的那一句話啦我認為台中既是大腦也是打造身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8967.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8990.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那在台中現在在優勢的一個精密的一個製造AI相關產業的製造能力裡面在這個基礎之上我台中也是AI的大腦啊我們要全力的來做跟中央一起合作能夠打造一個AI大腦AI身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8992.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8997.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
台中是一個完整的AI主體性的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8998.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9027.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
進步程式這個才是我們台中的願景所以我今天要來跟部長是希望未來中央在有關AI產業的這一個部分希望能夠多多的看到台中支持台中那讓中央的資源我台中也希望跟中央合作我們能夠打造一個真正的一個台灣在世界AI產業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9028.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9050.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
無可取代的地位,而台中在台灣也能夠成為那個無可取代的城市,可以嗎?是,沒問題,如同委員所知道,我也來自於產業界,我也是台中人,我有很多軟體業的朋友,一些大佬們都是來自於台中,那我們都覺得說台中的氣候宜人,生活環境非常好,是一個非常適合軟體產業發展的地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9051.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9076.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
是啊因為台積電在台中也有投資啊台積電在台中現在的二廠土地問題也解決了啊而且預計要用最快的時間來生產高階的晶片啊那我們有硬體我們也有軟體的人才只是我們地方中央需要再合作再加碼投資讓我剛剛講的台中在台灣的這個AI的相關的高科技產業裡面我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9079.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9087.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
全力發展台中的AI軟硬體產業好不好好再拜託部長了好謝謝謝謝委員感謝何欣淳委員強力推動台中的AI產業感謝謝謝接下來我們邀請許智傑委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9108.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9132.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
謝謝主席 我們請部長請林部長部長早安部長好是我看部長壓力一定很大那個剛辛純講說那個台中要不可取代的城市是那我們主席是台南那我是高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9134.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9148.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以這個全部都要把台灣變成世界不可取代的國家就是除了硬體之外我想軟體也是我們必須要非常努力的部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9151.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9171.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們大概3月底樹化部會有一個那個產業座談嘛是這是我從去年就一直要求也參與過多次就是我們高雄地區海嵐的這個建設是所以在去年的3月然後去年的6月跟12月我自己也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9172.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9196.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
高雄辦的AI行農還有AI漁業還有AI商圈的這些座談會那我們也希望說這些AI的應用可以落實在我們的生活當中那針對這個數位港的部分先請教一下部長我們大致上什麼時候可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9198.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9221.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
蘇維港是我想這個是我們一直持續在推動的一件事情所以比較難說是確定說哪時候完成我們應該是想說這個是我們現在就是很重要一件事情是那個算力中心那我們知道說現在有一些台灣的民間的大廠他這個算力中心的選址都會在南部謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9222.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9244.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
南部的那個電力比較充足然後南部的那個就是也是我們現在政府一直希望說把高科技產業不需要通通集中在北部那以前傳統上一些硬體產業像說那個我們那個台積電等等以前都是在新竹到台北之間現在都全台灣佈局了 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9245.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9256.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對全南部都布局了那已經北部這個地方已經過度擁擠了那我們是希望往中南部的就是分散所以我現在希望說要要求跟拜託部長就是說我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9259.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9279.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
台灣是台積電護國神山是世界的翹楚這個在硬體上面其實是沒有問題的那硬體布局台灣其實也各地都有這個我們也謝謝台積電跟我們中央的努力還有地方的爭取那現在就是說我們相關的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9281.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9293.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
比如說我們數位港 海南站我們應該盡快完成至少這個是資訊流嘛那在全台灣總是我們要有一個自己的安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9295.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9314.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
穩定的資訊可以港口可以進出的所在所以這個為什麼我一直在要求希望能夠盡快完成也希望說部長能夠把這個時間盡量縮短來完成這個數位港海嵐站的這個目標那另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9315.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9333.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
鴻海在台灣在高雄現在他在我們高雄打算蓋兩棟大樓是那這些將來可能也是一個重要的算力中心沒錯他上一次我看新聞回答是也合作是所以將來會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9334.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9361.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
光是新聞寫的是4千多顆啦那當然就是說這些未來會變成一個超級算力中心在高雄那我們在想到就是剛剛新淳也有提到就是應用的部分那超級算力中心在高雄之後呢我想包括交換中心在高雄有沒有打算設交換中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9363.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9390.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
交換中心就是資料交換中心我們現在是希望就是說回答就是希望我們這個算力中心如果設在那邊以後當然裡面會有除了資料以外就是最重要是有AI的model那我們這個地方我們都會努力去做那我們現在先想法就是說那個因為我們政府部門也要使用AI那政府部門的AI就非常的敏感我們那個政府的部門的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9391.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9418.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
都知道如果我直接用那個美國的那個AI系統這個伺服器可能在美國在日本在那個在新加坡所以在台灣要有自己的對那那個也會有兩個問題這個以後都是關鍵基礎設施對因為那些我們輸入的資料第一個可能資料機密會外洩我們政府的資料不希望流到台灣之外那另外就是說我們在司法上有沒有管轄權如果我們用的是那個在海外的這些資料中心其實我們報案以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9419.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9437.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以我就說我們打算做自己的所以我們一定要有自己的資料中心那第一步要使用的可能就是我們這些政府單位都必須用到那個國內的這些資料中心所以我們是從這個方向我們跟民間的企業像那個像鴻海等所以其實AI它有 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9438.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9457.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
因為電力的問題 算力需要大的電力所以我們高雄現在 當然鴻海來高雄我們也非常的感謝就是電力 算力 再來就是純力 運力那你的資料中心至少純力 是不是應該也要佈局 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9459.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9486.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
是當然那包括就是交換中心算力跟存力的連結這個都必須要有資料中心跟交換中心去做連結是那這樣子整個佈局才會比較穩定那都是我們自己佈局的也才比較不會有治安國安的問題是沒錯所以這個部分我是希望說蘇化部能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9488.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9515.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
設計一些比較具體的讓國人知道是那包括就是像高雄現在的亞洲資產中心是比如說台北金融中心的實體在台北是最豐富嘛是那金融中心的數位化是它的data的數位化是事實上亞洲資產中心這裡就是一個很好的地方是所以也就是說你把 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9516.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9539.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
RWA這些把它數位化數位化之後那其實亞洲資產中心這個地方應該就是可以規劃我們的所有的金融業務的純利數位化在亞洲資產中心這個地方我也希望說數化部可以做一下規劃那另外就是說剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9543.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9560.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
齊邁市長現在在亞利桑那嘛對不對就是說這個戰略三角事實上我們除了硬體之外軟體像矽谷或者是舊金山灣區那部長也提過現在有很多移到德州那就是說這一些AI應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9562.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9588.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們將來希望AI for 百工百業是但是for 百工百業呢它必須要有一個比較強的輔導的AI應用的團隊是來輔導百工百業進入AI的領域是那民間現在各公司當然都會各顯神通去努力啦沒錯那國家在數學部的角度有沒有類似這樣一個AI應用的大引擎 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9589.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9608.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
OK我們現在速發部我們的政策是這樣子我們有五大政策工具分別是算力資料人才行銷以及資金那因為我們認為說像這種AI這種軟體技術進步太快如果凡事都要由政府來主導的話政府的運作速度會比較慢那我們是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9610.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9638.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我們政府的職責是創造一個生態系以後讓這個民間的公司可以健康的發展事實上台灣是有相當不錯的軟體產業像我們知道的那個趨勢訓練完美移動這個都在都是國際型的公司都是用AI的公司而且他們都是有龐大獲利的公司那我們希望說除了這可以招商到台灣對多幾家像這樣子可以走入國際的AI公司我們希望能培養出來所以我之前有跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9639.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9657.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
文化部建議過一件事情我覺得我們書畫部可以參考是之前我們所有的電影的投資是以前文化部是用補助不是用投資是用補助就是說我可能一百元兩百元我準備要補助處理對到最後就是錢開了這樣好過不知道是所以後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9661.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9676.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我就跟他們建議說你應該用投資的角度所以現在文化部有一個文策院文策院就是說我不是純粹用補助的角度我是用投資的角度這樣用補助的角度會讓有些人故意要找查的或故意要 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9677.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9689.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那個唱衰的他會說你這個都是圖利這個就很討厭也很麻煩那你用投資的角度就是說你現在有100億兩天變200億你現在有1000億兩天變2000億這種角度對國家也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9694.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9718.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
對產業的發展也好 包括我們的國發基金我是建議說數化部應該去思考一下說如何我剛提到了這個AI應用的大引擎包括我們自己內部的培養包括整合各大學變成AI人才培育基地或者是說吸納國外的這些已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9719.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9742.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
有具體的 而且有經驗的 而且有能力的大公司有可能到台灣來投資這就是互相的嘛一方面是招商存錢 招商一方面是用國家的角度去投資把這些AI應用的大引擎扣到台灣來那像現在舊金鴻石屋他們那邊有很多的AI獨角獸他們是否不同的項目嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9743.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9767.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我們如果國家不管是我們一起投資或是招商來至少國家有這樣子一個佈局未來所有的AI應用的大的引擎或者是大的公司在台灣可以更多所以說這就是我們的目標對這個部分目標不錯啦事務發布本來就有設定這樣子的目標那大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9768.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9794.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那個進度我希望說如果有機會的話那個數學部可以幫忙整理一些進度那我們一方面也可以來了解這個目標實現的機會有多大啦或者是速度有多快時間差不多啦好那重點就是說我們最後一個簡單的結論啦這個大家都會講到黃仁勳他說莫定力已到了盡頭啦所以這個加倍已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9796.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9821.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
已經算是小case了將來是加數十倍數百倍都不一定所以我是希望說這個部分希望說我們蘇化部可以做這樣的規劃也希望說那個部長整理一下資料身體下也讓我對這一部分有更多的了解那就拜託那個部長請蘇化部整理一下資料了解一下這一些大引擎動作進度到哪裡謝謝委員的提醒與支持我們謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9824.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9846.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
許智傑委員的發言非常感謝那接下來我們邀請魯明哲委員來發言好謝謝主席有請數位部林部長請林部長陸委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9855.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9883.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
直接進入主題因為現在這個事實上我們所有的民眾我想包括你我很多的都不去實體天面那現在都在這些網購平台它的這個量體是非常大的特別我們看了一下你們給我們的資料根據那個SimilarWeb它的統計在過去三個月平均每個月大概目前在台灣看到的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9885.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9909.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
網購平台業 電商的一個平台業者大概排名的順序 前五名有列出來第一名Shopping 第二名Momo 第三名PC Home第四名伯克萊 第五名庫蓬那還有以下的排名那在這個前五名我們看到有很多國內的知名品牌那也有一些國外 像Shopping是新加坡然後這個庫蓬是韓商 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9911.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9939.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以他們但對民眾來講我說真的在哪裡找到我要的貨我才不管你是什麼樣的在你是這個國內的品牌還是國外的那個平台對不對那我想在這個這樣的一個大家採購的一個那種習慣已經幾乎是已經九成已經完全改變了過來這時候我們資訊安全跟很多的詐騙在這些網購平台上面已經談了很多年了談了很多年從整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9941.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9955.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
購買的過程中購買的流程不管是假包裹或是說用這個電商傳一個假訊息很多的釣魚的那種方式這個已經被談過很多次了那針對你們這個在數位部來講對電商平台產生的詐騙整體來說有什麼樣的具體作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9963.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9978.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
OK首先我們要了解這個問題這個問題通常一開始是什麼是這個電商他裡面的個資遭到洩漏或者他的交易記錄遭到洩漏然後當這個通常會有一些這個不法集團把這些資料賣給一些詐騙集團他現在分工市場蠻細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9980.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10000.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
然後這些詐騙集團就會偽冒這些電商發簡訊或者是發email或什麼方式去通知那個使用者說你之前買了什麼什麼貨那現在發生了什麼事情叫你補錢或者怎麼樣因為這些資料還有這些會員資料如果是真實的話那使用者一般民眾就很容易上當 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10000.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10025.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以我們現在很重要的事情是要管到這個源頭它不能有各自的洩漏那像最近就是有幾樁的那個各自洩漏的問題就我們發現它這個問題是什麼出在人的問題其實不是它資訊的問題是它內部有內鬼像說最近那個韓國就發生了這種事情就後來發現是一個來自中國大陸的工程師他從內部就是把那些資料通通就是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10026.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10034.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
不法的方式去存取那我們這個地方我們事實上我們最重要就是遇到這個事情趕快揭露趕快去那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10036.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10063.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
趕快去通知這個民眾就是尤其這個資料遭到洩漏的民眾你一定要小心好部長其實我們在立法院當然經常是問我們政府單位能夠多做一點可是在這樣的一個平台業者加大越大我們本身平台業者他在不管是一堆的電商還有這麼多的一個消費者在中間他的一個治安責任應該是要相對的越來越 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10064.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10090.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
是 沒錯那第二個是事實上很多的一個平台業者對於電商的不管是上架費或者手續費這幾年也不斷的提升我說這個提升的過程肯定裡面也要有一個部分是自己要投資在治安吧對不對當然那我想你剛剛特別說了這個庫蓬頭去年11月他的一個個資外洩我就覺得這個是有一點鞭長莫及的那種感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10091.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10097.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
去年11月發生這樣一個事情新聞見報的時候看到蘇發蘇衛部有跟我們回報11月份就有去問顧朋台灣說這個只是韓國的帳號主要韓國的帳號12月再次你們都有去問算是有沒有盡你們的責任文字的承諾都會覺得還蠻無奈的第二次問他顧朋又跟你說沒有台灣的帳戶受影響這是你們說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10121.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10134.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那一直到兩個月之後當然因為事件發生在韓國嘛資料庫在他那邊那後面他們第三方調查清楚了說不好意思都有影響到台灣大概有超過20萬個用戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10137.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10160.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
的個資未經授權可以講被盜取那現在到底面臨這樣的一個情況有兩個部分啦對於這個事件在台灣我們的個資20萬個個資這樣的一個外洩這樣的一個部分未來有什麼樣的處罰或是有什麼樣的一個責任第二個到底有什麼樣的一個改善的機制在數位部的角度跟業者你們說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10162.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10188.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
針對這個我們先講說我們現在處理進度這個地方請問素產署的林署長說明跟委員二要報告一下這個發生之後我們當然第一個要求他補漏洞第二個去做行政檢查那行政檢查我們把調查報告目前已經送到行政院那因為調查的結果還是要請那個當事人陳述嘛現在他正在陳述當中所以這個我們未來還是會在行政院那邊開會來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10191.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10204.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那這個部分你們特別我在詢問的時候特別你們有一種感覺就整個資料庫在外商可能全部有點你要去查他電腦資料庫可能都在國外那我們剛剛看到第一名Shopee |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10205.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10227.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
可能他是不是也在新加坡這些資料庫那當然庫蓬在韓國那這樣的一個有一點這個鞭長莫及的一個感覺你們不是也是不是有提說在台灣的客戶希望他們能夠資料落地我們可以就近用資安的角度不管是協助他監督都在第一時間第一時間就能夠確認不知道有沒有這個方向安保 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10228.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10248.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
從監理的方向來講的話我們非常希望說所有這些公司它資料能落地事實上我們最近都在講主權AI這個也是主權資料就是資料我們叫才有管轄權但是因為台灣之前加入WTO的時候事實上是簽過一些協定那依照WTO的那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10250.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10267.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那些協定就是各個國家不應該去要求那個國際的這些公司進行資料落地那當然我們知道說最近因為國際的局勢已經發生變化那美國川普政府對於說資料落地這件事情他們態度已經改變了 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10267.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10281.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以這個地方我們正在努力的跟那個協調當中我們希望說在不違反就是說我們之前對其他國家我們在WTO架構之下的承諾的狀況下看能不能做一些更好的監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10282.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10307.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好今天最後一個問題還是延續性的我們事實上在我們的數位部在延續過去工業局有針對於企業資安檢測的一個服務這署長你來說一下好了這個因為從107年到現在大概也七年了吧七八年了那這樣的年年我們看了一下大概都三四十家有這個檢測服務所以我想了解一下是 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10308.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10326.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
他主動報名是不是就是說他要參加不參加不是我們決定到底主動權是我們覺得哪一些風險高或者像這個比數高他影響的層面大我們去選還是你們自由報名參加因為你說明一下好不好你誰來參加我們這個企業資安檢測服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10331.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10359 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
當然就是各行各業嘛但是我們這邊有一個篩選的院子能量還是有限嘛所以是我們自己篩選對 因為有時候不是我們篩選有時候他也願意來報名因為他可能要配合一些學長我到底是怎麼回事啦我跟你講委員來來來 部長我時間到了因為我的想法是這樣如果你是自由報名院子上鉤我也覺得那你們太辛苦了啦為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10360.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10369.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
就是那種不重視治安的或者治安有可能那種觀念有問題或者他可能根本我根本不報名嘛第二個但是我的風險非常高我的客戶我的個資這麼多但是我還是不參加所以我是覺得我是不知道但我覺得經歷這樣的一個事情因為我看了你們連續了三年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10384.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10405.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
檢測的40家各40家100多家公司並沒有剛剛講的這5家1 2 3 4名都沒有所以我是覺得建議一下啦我不是說你們要去干擾誰啦那你抽測的部分對這種非常重要只要一旦個資洩漏影響非常大的這個我們要一定要有點主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10406.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10433.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
跟委員說明一下這個的確是我們努力的方向但是我們現在很努力的速發部要告訴所有這個民間企業說我們是來幫忙的不是來找你麻煩的因為我們如果說通常是用那種監督或者是檢查的方式這個所有這些企業都怕得要死他們都想辦法躲那我們現在就是想辦法說我們是來幫你改善你的資安的所以我們不是說我來找麻煩的這個我想我們第一步要做到這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10434.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10444.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 非常感謝魯明哲委員接下來我們邀請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10456.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10464.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
主席 在場委員先進列席的政府局院所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 記者媒體 女帥先生請我們速發部林部長我們請林部長委員長部長好有人說啊為什麼騙子一直抓不完是你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10476.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10504.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那有人說騙子抓不完是因為還有很多傻子沒上當你同意這句話嗎因為傻子比騙子多太多了不能這樣講我會有問題的好我了解其實呢的確我們看詐騙的趨勢初期的確是因為我們民眾對於缺乏警覺所以有些比如說人家說貪便宜的啦想投機的啦受到廣告的誘惑就上當了 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10504.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10520.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
是但是你看喔現在多管道的詐騙他已經不是靠流量靠那個亂槍打鳥找到一些可能比較沒有警覺心的人喔是他靠的是什麼長期的經營透過這個社群平台交友平台然後呢跟你拼了所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10521.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10548.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
通常我們現在說的不管是投資詐騙還是什麼詐騙通常都是什麼都是情感詐騙這些沒錯先騙你的感情是讓你信任之後他再騙你的錢是不是這樣子所以我們看到了有一個趨勢說AI與人性操控如何重塑全球的詐騙手法過去我們花了很多功夫在於通路在於平台在於媒介控制流量防止他取得這些散播的工具但是現在不一樣了我們來看這一個最近下一頁有沒有聽過龍蝦有沒有吃過龍蝦 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10551.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10577.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
現在龍蝦是指什麼open call對一個AI的代理是個人代理跟AI助理你想想看以前炸團不叫炸團要一團人分工因為一個人只能對付幾個人因為你要跟他保護感情你不可能一個人對一百個人但是現在有了龍蝦之後你只要聘了這個AI個人助理你養多幾隻龍蝦你就不用炸團你一個人就可以詐騙上千上萬個人你覺得有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10578.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10595.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
有可能所以現在情況AI的時代來臨詐團的手法要改變我們要看一下往下看所以AI助理將成為詐騙的標配怎麼辦部長你覺得這個時候我們要怎麼樣來預防或者怎麼樣來趕快的未雨綢繆呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10596.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10625.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
OK 這個從兩方面來講第一個在技術上面我們當然是用AI對付AI是的 用魔法對付魔法是 OK那另外一個就是說我們從那個基本的那個治理來講那個我們是速發部這邊希望透過我們這個數位憑證提甲的機構建立一個所謂的類實名制的制度是的因為中國它事實上詐騙比較少因為它使用實名制 網路實名制但是網路實名制會侵犯到個人的那個隱私權等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10625.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10650.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以我們現在是類實名制我就希望說我可以確定你是一個真人你是一個台灣人但是我不需要知道你是哪一個台灣人有人說你怎麼在網路上平台上去辨識AI你給他下幾個指令他上當就知道了好但是他也會與時俱進是道高一時 魔高一丈所以我們的資安院我們要試詐阻詐我們用AI的技術來識別但是真的是魔盜競爭怎麼辦我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10652.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10666.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
其實根據亞洲的詐騙過去年常引用現在是社群跟通訊平台所以我們速發部跟民間防詐的機構合作的AI機制的話能夠有效的來防治這個代理市的AI詐騙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10669.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10686.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
因為這個像詐騙打詐我常常講就是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們一定要不斷的我們政府作為好人一方不斷的把這些漏洞堵住但是壞人他一定會尋找新的漏洞所以我們有一個很重要的事情是我要擴大好人隊的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10688.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10707.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
你的好人隊包括AI嗎你有AI他有AI啊對我有AI他競賽你贏不了他但是我所謂的好人隊包含這個平台包含那個Meta你說對了平台對不對現在平台已經你把他慢慢拉過來了不要讓平台成為一個詐騙的溫床平台願意配合了也是因為我們立法上的要求對不對是沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10708.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10732.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
但是不要忘了平台就幾大平台但是平台上充斥什麼往下看往下一頁平台上充斥的這些廣告啊其實你要他把廣告下架那是在末端管理誰在下廣告就是出資者嘛所以是不是法律上我們可以對這些出資者也開始進行你說我們法律有了嘛對不對現在這些出資者跟看播者你們有沒有掌握了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10732.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10757.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
是哪些人在用在出資哪些人在看播有沒有掌握我們能掌握的我們盡量掌握但是這個關鍵還是在於像Meta我們以Meta來講因為很多這個Meta上面還有Google上面廣告是在海外的出資者跟海外的脫波者然後這件事情我們就是透過Meta我們就邀請他加入好人隊然後他從原圖去找那他在從去年他已經下架430萬個 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10759.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10786.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這類的那個跟詐騙有關係的帳號然後也從這邊他就查到就是來自於那個監獄債野火燒不盡春風吹又生啊只要草原存在你在草原上打火啊很難打所以要找到火苗找到帶火種的人好那我跟您提一個議號你們你知道以前警務人員怎麼抓那個竊賊嗎是不是在人家的門口守株待兔不是在富豪的門口守株待兔啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10787.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10802.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他們到當鋪裡面去查章為什麼竊賊偷的東西你要賣賣了之後就到當鋪去當鋪現在是不是合法的是合法的誰在管你知道嗎警政署警政署這些當鋪他都有管常常是巡一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10803.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10822.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
當鋪的業者有些也會跟警方合作看到來路部裡面的東西他會提報所以不只是平台在平台下廣告的這些網路行銷公司他可能是詐騙結論的幫兇但是他也可能是你去查出他潛在可能找到其他犯罪者的你看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10823.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10842.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
一個詐騙集團要有出資者要看播者廣告到社群平台受害者你現在管了這一台這是草原野火燒不盡春風吹又生找到那些什麼帶火種的人這些帶火種的人誰給他火種代理商有沒有把網路行銷公司跟代理商也納入你的好人隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10844.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10867.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個事情我們一直在努力事實上跟委員報告我們非常非常努力但是這個問題就是我剛才講的因為很多這個網路的那個行銷公司是在海外因為那個Facebook他這個問題為什麼會這麼難讓我們就跟他們去談就是我們要求他溯源由Facebook那邊去發起去找到你所說的這些網路行銷公司代理商讓我們事實上在Facebook上他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10868.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10893.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
整個詐騙的那個層級是分成三層的第一個是他們詐騙集團會設立那個詐騙的帳號然後養這些帳號以後要成立粉絲頁粉絲頁以後在下面再去放那個詐騙廣告部長這個流程我大概了解但是因為怕耽誤太多時間所以我們請現場有針對犯罪群團經驗的警務人員好不好我們有你正屬的有詐謗中心的兩位來幫忙協助解答一下來部長我再問你再看看他們怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10895.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10916.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你如果從犯罪者受害者的賬物去查到哪些當鋪在銷章這當然是必要的但是如果你有當鋪的同業告訴你說哪幾家當鋪常常稱為竊賊去銷章的管道這是不是擒賊先擒王不是等到受害者發生了再來查章從平常當鋪業的掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10917.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10945.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
對不起我沒有詆毀張卜業的意思我是說過去是這樣的意思來請問一下主任這個是不是過去我們警務工作犯罪偵防的一個方法先把可能潛在的這些被利用的工具平台先個別的先有所掌握是 包委員是就是這樣做好是這樣做沒有錯部長聽到沒有所以你說的沒有錯網路行銷公司跟代理商不是每一個都是壞人沒有現在網路詐騙的當鋪事實上是通常是那個比特幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10946.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10969.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以要從虛擬幣那邊下手我現在不是擋金流我是說協助者對不起說話講完了所以我是希望我講一個例子三資第三方支付第三方支付都是過去柵團用來洗錢用的但是自從金管會把第三方支付成立一個產業公會之後他就可以跟他正常的合理的對交流對不起那個第三方產業是你們管的是我們管的那好對不起我誤會了你們誤會金管會來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10972.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10992.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那麼所以你們就循這個方式為了談結論因為主席已經要求了請研議協助被詐團利用為人頭協助於社團平台刊登詐騙詐欺廣告而不知情的網路行銷公司的方案你們用什麼方法把這些可能不知覺的成為幫助犯的這些業者想辦法能夠把他有所掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10992.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11020.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
就像你們透過三支產業公會的方式讓他們被組織起來之後未來就像警方在查章一樣就像你們打擊詐騙不是只從網路平台下手還可以從這些可能被利用的這些幫助的一些業者呢來擠找的房子可以嗎沒有問題啊這個我們都有在做那我一定會給我的報告事實上這個事情我們就做滿好長一段時間謝謝謝謝主席謝謝宗嘉斌委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11022.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11026.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好 接下來我們邀請羅志強委員發言有請林怡靜部長 吳承文主委好 我們請林部長吳主委今天請假 我們請郭柯惠副主委在這裡委員好好 我們請陳副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11055.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11074.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
想先請教兩位歐盟、美國跟中國大陸都將人工智慧技術視為國家競爭力跟國家安全的核心領域我國是全球半導體最重要的生產基地晶片是AI技術發展的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11075.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11094.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那請問兩位是否同意台灣在全球AI競爭當中佔有關鍵性的地位當然可是經過我看到之前英國的觀察家報所發布的2025全球AI指數報告那台灣在93個國家當中排名第16 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11095.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11111.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那美國跟中國大陸是排名第一跟第二然後新加坡名列第三韓國第五 日本第十一那基本上排名都領先我國啦那雖然我國在AI基礎建設排名第七 屬前段班但是在AI人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11112.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11132.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
開發能力跟商業生態系的指標都較為低分尤其是AI人才跟前一年相較從28名下滑到33名開發能力從第15名推到27名商業生態系是跟2020年一樣是30名我想請問部長還有副主委怎麼看待這份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11133.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11148.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這個報告我們會認真的對待但是我們認為說我們國家發展AI的政策不應該看一份報告而已因為這個像這個AI報告的排名也是一群研究人員他在做的那海外有他們海外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11149.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11178.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
其他國家他們的人員我們台灣也有我們台灣非常優秀的學者還有這個政府的那個同仁那舉一個例子來講譬如說以AI人才那我們AI人才的指標我們可以用AI人才的密度或者AI人才的數量這個兩個聽起來很像但是你如果用數量來來做評比的話對新加坡非常不利如果你用人才密度的話對新加坡非常有利所以這個在指標上的選擇就是會產生非常不一樣的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11180.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11192.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這部長說法我有聽過啦就大致說不用太過在意因為每個國家每個國家的部署的一些重心重點但是我想說至少在這三個面向上我覺得這個報告還是有一定的參考價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11193.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11213.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那有沒有核心的一些策略可以讓我們在未來比如說相關的一些國際上認知我們台灣的AI的技術領先能夠再往上提升有沒有什麼具體的策略我們這個事實上那個國科會跟書發部一直在這方面有著手那我們書發部這邊最重要的就是我們要創造一個AI發展的生態系 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11214.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11238.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們有五大政策工具就是算力資料人才行銷以及資金那我們各有一套那個方法去做那以人才這部分來講的話我們現在最重要的是制定一個人才指引因為AI的人才我們以前我們就講說我們要訓練多少人多少人我產業界的朋友都跟我開玩笑說如果只要會用ChatGP就會就算AI人才的話這兩分鐘就可以訓練一個這個都不是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11239.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11255.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以最重要我們是要先定義什麼是AI的人才所以我們樹發部這邊制定了AI產業人才認定指引希望創造一個生態系讓供給方需求方還有這個人才本身都有一個依歸然後讓民間的力量來幫我們政府訓練更多的AI人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11257.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11275.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
另外當然我們講發展AI產業輝達的執行長黃仁勛他也提過五層蛋糕理論包括能源晶片基礎設施模型到應用其實裡面講到最底層的一個蛋糕就是產生電力的能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11276.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11302.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那這個部分我想也就不用多做贅述那我要問就是說以目前來講的話我不知道部長跟我們副主委你看到就是說能源及算力這樣的一個幾乎是全球的共識像這種情況之下你覺得我們的台灣的能源建的基礎建設有跟得上我們現在目前這個全球關於所謂AI算力最重要的一個基層的這個能源的部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11305.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11327.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
跟委員報告這個能源部分我們在國科會的算力的建置的部分我們是有在做盤點跟台電做合作所以國科會在建置的部分應該是沒有問題的那是你們建置沒有問題當然台電目前我們剛才教文過來跟那個核安會還有就是有關於那個能源的部分核電核三的重啟的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11328.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11339.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那我還是要回頭講一件事就是說事實上我覺得目前看到書發布也好國科會也好你們在管理所謂的在規劃所謂的我們AI戰略的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11340.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11365.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那這是你們部會是在所謂的包括技術啊人才養成這一塊那當然是你們業館可是整個政府的部門其實需要一個整體性的一個水平跟垂直合作啦那尤其是在我們剛剛講這五層蛋糕有些部分是今天我們國科會也好我們書發部的業館內容但有些部分涉及基礎能源建設那這個部分我覺得整個政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11365.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11378.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
命令未來的AI時代要極其極力的一起來合作好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 我們非常感謝羅志強委員接下來我們邀請張雅琳委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們邀請蘇發布部長好 請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11395.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11414.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
委員好部長我要來更新一下AI基本法的相關的進度是第一個是說我們在三個月的時候當時有一個我們當時在審這個法案的時候有一個附帶決議就是在三個月內我們要完成兒少影響性評估照理來講應該在4月14號的時候就應該要公佈了我想了解一下現在進度市長怎麼樣是這件事情是由我們那個策略師負責我們請市長說明沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11417.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11428.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好那大院的那個三項的人權兒少跟性平等影響評估我們已經報行政院了那我們預計看看這個禮拜五這個禮拜五看行政院能不能核定那我們就會去公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11430.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11457.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以基本上目前是在進度之內對不對所以我們應該是說這禮拜如果合定的話我們應該就可以在4月14號之前來那我想這是非常重要的一件事情那接下來還有另外一件事是風險框架標準當時我們也是有講說在一年之內吧我們應該要六個月內要完成各部會的檢討在一個一年之內要公佈嘛那我想了解現在我們跟各部會進行的一個相關進度因為我們二月的時候有詢問啦有些部會比較積極有些部會好像需要一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11458.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11485.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
再加把勁是不是部長可以簡單跟我們是那個我們依照那個AI基本法我們書法部現在正在訂那個AI風險分類框架那預計在3月底4月初我們就會那個送院所以大概因為現在已經是3月今天17號還是18號18號所以剩下大概兩三個禮拜內就會送院了所以我們現在已經跟各部會都已經完成了討論跟檢討了 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11489.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11509.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好那非常好那接下來我就想要討論一件事情就是說因為最近呢就是因為其實AI生成的這個進度實在是非常非常的快所以現在已經出現了一個叫做AI換衣AI脫衣的APP只要上傳一張照片就可以在幾秒內生成裸露或性暗示的影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11509.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11526.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
但這些其實就是defect嘛那其實它的影響已經不是只是技術的問題而且還有就是新型態的性剝削、性隱私以及數位性暴力所以我想要了解這個部分我們是不是已經有跟衛福部內政部警政署有討論有沒有注意到這件事然後進行相關的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11526.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11542.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
有 這個我們跟衛福部那邊有非常密切的討論那關於這種像是最近那個Miss A.V.的那個事件那我們就知道說那個把他下架以後他又馬上又換了一個網址那我們現在那個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11542.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11571.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
第一個就是我們要加快處理的速度那現在的通報流程是這樣第一個是衛福部他那邊必須作業然後他發文給那個TWNIC就是台灣網路訊息中心這是速發部所監管的一個法人機構然後TWNIC再透過DNSRPC的機制通知各個網路那個ISP等等業者那這三段都會有些時間的那個delay那我們現在想辦法就是把這個時間都縮短那衛福部那邊要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11572.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11601.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
把他們那邊的公文處理或者做決定的速度要加快然後我們速發部這邊的做法是盡量把它做成自動化不是用人工去處理有些事情就是可以自動化的去運作人機器都加快然後再來就是我們會監督那些ISP業者等等加快它的速度大概是多久衛福部討論出來之後速發部就可以採取相關的行動大概是多久的時間這個可不可以請我們資源司司長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11602.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11621.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
各位委員報告目前的話就是TWNIC如果收到這個主管機關的處分的話在兩個小時內就可以完成所有系統的設定好了解那我接下來再回到部長這邊再請教一下就是說因為我們現在呢在因為這種新型態其實真的是成 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11622.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11632.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
就是一直不停地在產出啦而且是爆得非常非常快所以我們大概多久的時候我們會去做一些風險的盤點然後讓衛福部讓相關的部會知道這件事情我們多久會盤點一次呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11633.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11655.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們大概不是定期的會議因為我們跟衛福部的溝通很好我們大概每個禮拜都會跟他們的部市長討論這個事情我們這個是一直都在持續進行還有一點要講的就是我們現在從另外方式我們去做是要從要求AI產生的影像都必須做標示對沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11657.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11674.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
你要問到你問到我要講的問題那我就先問清楚一點你方便一起回答好了好不好所以有關於因為我們這個高風險的標示我們現在已經有清楚的定義了嗎然後以及對於因為我們也做完兒少影響性評估對於違反最兒少最佳利益的高風險的應用也有沒有清楚的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11675.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11691.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
OK就是說這種事情是不是高風險兒少方面這要問衛福部這不是速發部但是我們現在速發部做的事情是要求所有AI生成的影像照理說都應該要標示但是目前的狀況是這樣子第一個是說在美國的這些大型社群 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11692.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11716.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
平台他原來在拜登政府時代的時候美國政府都有要求他們做標示可是後來那個川普上任以後這方面他們美國政府的要求就比較鬆散所以很多在這個社群網路平台上面的AI產生的影像他並沒有標示那台灣我們就是要求說這些平台你來台灣做生意你還是要遵守台灣的規定那我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11716.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11746.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
並沒有一個很明確的法律那到時候還需要這個立法院這邊的多多支持那我們是現在先用溝通方式要求這些平台那當然這些平台我們也是現在坦白講都只管君子管不到小人因為很多的工具不知道在哪個國家不知道海外哪些地方那還有一些駭客會把這上面的標示故意拿掉那我們在想辦法在制定這方面的運作規則那這個地方我們會持續跟衛福部還有跟立法院做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11746.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11768.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 我想聽到我剛才有聽到一個重點就是說我們在這件事情上面的標示上面好像因為還缺乏一些相關的立法工具因為我們現在只有你犯法之後我們可以有一些工具來去處理那現在我不知道因為在立法我們可能需要一點時間可是因為這個傷害可能很快就會造成我不想說我們可不可以先做一件事情就是說我們可以先採取標示來提示 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11769.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11793.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
提示提示就是有問題的內容這件事情是不是可以先上路確實的執行這個就是我剛剛講的我們現在已經在跟那個網路平台大概什麼時候會執行呢我們當然是希望明天就執行但是討論上面你們希望我們就是要push嘛因為這畢竟就是兒少的影響我們也要push他們啦所以大概我們有沒有一個時間點嘛 目標啦兩個月我們來追蹤一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11796.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11821.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
你可以追蹤啊沒有問題啊我每個禮拜我都去追蹤Meta跟Google我也都沒問題啊但是因為這個行政委員還體諒一下因為它是民間機構那我現在也沒有法律我可以要求強制他要做這件事情我只能用勸說的方式啊當然嘛但是我們過去也都是用勸說的方式來是啊是啊是啊對不對所以我這部分就是我們就是在一個月之後好不好先給我們一個進度報告好不好每個月我們來進度報告好不好謝謝沒有問題好謝謝我們謝謝張雅玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11825.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11841.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
好 接下來我們要請洪玉祥委員發言有請那個林部長請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11848.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11875.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
餵你好我想節省時間大概我就快一點速發部主管的是我們的軟體產業是想要問一下從過去到現在來講的話因為我有在法安待過很多年20幾年其實我們一直觀察整個在軟體業界來講的話重硬輕軟尤其在預算分配的比喻上 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11876.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11902.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
是非常的極度的您指的是那個使用者還是開發者硬體產業我唸給你聽從你晶片系統的國家發展NPC代半導體等等的這總共的經費大概是3175億這我還是稍微低估一點軟體的總投入預算在政府的預算大概我稍微還高估一點是1400多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11904.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11929.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那事實上來講這是極度的失衡那我想要問的因為過去在前女政法署長的時候有爭取軟體的一個國家的一個請的一個計畫那不曉得現在這一個還有沒有在規劃當中跟委員報告我一直相信軟體產業的創新突破與發展必須來自於民間的自由公平的競爭而不是來自於由政府主導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11931.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11943.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這個計畫所以你說硬體的政府主導計畫是錯的這個委員這個事情我們可以討論因為台積電的發展到底是政府主導還是民間的自己的力量我想我們去業階去問一下不用說矽光子的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11947.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11974.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這當然要啊對嘛對啊可是我剛才講的是軟體產業的創新突破與發展我講的不是引體產業的創新突破與發展你現在是要負責台灣軟體產業的發展那你來不去做軟體策略的規劃辦做什麼我當然有在做軟體產業的規劃我今天一整天都在講這件事情那我今天不是在問你嗎所以你的預算失衡我就說你是不是可以多爭取一點是你計畫寫得不好還是你爭取不利啊我們因為去年我們那個素產署提了40億的那個預算被砍20億 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11976.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11996.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
是國科會砍還是我們砍你們砍的啊沒有砍的叫做軟體研發素產署這個是不是請素產署來說明一下不用部長說明站著就好來下一個AI新十大建設推動方案這是你負責的吧哪一塊我們負責是那個AI軟體產業燈發軟體產業巔峰嘛我再問你你這50萬個高薪的就業階段高薪怎麼定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12008.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12032.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
50萬個高薪就有機會這個我們是不是請素產署來說明人才的部分嗎你現在講的是人才還是你們寫的這是你們行政院的報告對這個這個好像不是我們書發部這個所以書發部不用高薪就對了好這個是什麼有包含產發署經濟部的部門經濟部產發署來下一個台灣的AI軟體機會在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12039.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12059.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
跟委員報告台灣軟體世上有很強的軟體產業像趨勢訓練完美移動你想的都舊的有沒有新的對我們現在就是我們速發部透過五大那個政策工具我講的公司都比你還新對不起我講的公司都搞不好還比你還新對啊我要講新的公司我還可以講講啊講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12065.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12068.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
亞太智能然後像那個Appear然後我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12069.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12098.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
在這邊我們要比說要講說多新的公司我去看工商科技也許昨天有一家新的公司出來我就告訴你AI軟體產業發展機會在哪裡我不太理解我都可以講的比你還好那委員請講是你當部長還是我當部長因為我不瞭解你的問題在哪裡啊你問的問題你問譬如說那個軟體產業我就問軟體產業來回答你現在要負責AI軟體產業的規劃然後你自己不曉得AI軟體產業發展的策略成功機會在哪裡我都要講我今天已經獎勵整天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12100.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12100.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你10秒啊講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12102.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12129.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
對 我們就是我跟你講啊就是我們五大政策工具就是算力 資料 人才我說軟體機會在那裡不是講你的政策工具軟體機會就是我講的全世界都是這樣軟體產業的創新突破與發展我告訴你 假設假設我是你我只要講兩句話就結束即使是中國中國這樣一個社會主義他們相信大政府的國家他們軟體產業不管是Deep Sea不管是千萬不要問A 答B不要問A答B |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12132.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12159.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我現在答的就是A 我現在講的就是軟體產業每一中國的軟體產業 每一個國家都在做這件事情不是由中國共產黨 什麼叫中國共產黨中國共產黨叫什麼 我怎麼定義你現在講軟體智慧你在講什麼東西啊我在講的是說這個是 你就告訴我 台灣的軟體發展在Vertical Domain就好了就是一個智慧製造 或者是智慧醫療 所以你要怎麼去做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12161.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12184.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
連這種東西都回答不出來再問你主管 環境產業AI執行活動加速6263多少加6263多少加我們是在做實體的討論我一整個早上產值是多少有沒有掌握員工人數是多少你要先掌握嘛掌握之後你才知道台灣的整個在ecosystem的定位在什麼地方這個都不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12188.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12209.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
譬如說你那個加速好了加速我想您是專家您在資車會工作過那麼久那個軟體公司有大有小有新有舊有的公司我剛剛問得很清楚財政部那邊都查得到主辦區那邊也查得到6263我只問你當一個部長是不是對這些的產業狀況了解軟體產業是不是你管的是或不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12211.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12239.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
軟體產業是我管的而且我來自於軟體產業界我也來自軟體產業界啊是啊對啊然後呢是啊所以我當然知道軟體產業界是什麼就是問你家數多少產值多少員工人數多少你就是想說這個這個財政部俊修回答好了財政部都查得到的事情你為什麼問抒發部呢不好意思軟體的安置位62634一萬六千多家是結束了產值的話應該是現在是八千多億這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12240.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12249.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
差不多我為什麼會這樣問就是你要對這東西了解嘛才能去定啊不了解定什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12251.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12277.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我懶得跟你吵了這邊省紀部的一個調查報告T-Rod的連結率MyData甚至還牽扯到你台灣主權AI訓練的語料庫然後另外你們講的促進資料的一個創新利用發展條例這些我都認為很重要也該做那我是希望你就是把T-RodMyData這個使用率再提高因為起碼要串通嘛那你資料串通之後我們才有辦法去應用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12278.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12301.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
然後另外你們兩個在提的你們報告二跟三這兩點我希望可以趕快好不好送一些規劃報告來給我這樣子看好最後我就不想問了反正呢看起來就是長這個樣子好我們謝謝洪議長委員接下來我們要請洪孟楷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12315.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12317.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
主席謝謝 麻煩請速發部林部長我們請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12325.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12352.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
委員好 部長好 還是在這個會期的第一次速發部的一個質詢那我想再針對幾個我們社會重大的議題來跟速發部來就教幾個部分 第一前些日子有在新北市突然間無望之災說因為接獲到衛福部影像處理中心通報有性愛影片未經同意上傳到網站也因此有下架網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12354.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12379.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那網站到不到一天之後但是沒有獲得相關的這個回應然後要求依照SOP封鎖網域但沒想到導致一天的時間裡面這一個算是非法網站因為它是成人影像又光速的復活甚至在網站上還高調嘲諷說感謝新北市所有台灣AI免廣告是 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12380.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12399.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那這是不是算是一個對公權力的一個挑釁這個是非常惡劣的因為它對公權力是一個挑戰那這個事情比較難處理是因為它這個網站通常都是設在海外那我們現在可以做的事情就是下架而且我們要縮短下架的時間加快這個速度因為依照我們過去的經驗就是說如果我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12399.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12424.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那個能縮短這個網站存活的時間的話因為他一個設立一個新的網站他還必須告訴他的潛在使用者說我的新網站叫什麼名字那這個部分我們現在是由衛福部通報那個TWNIC然後由TWNIC去透過DNS RPZ的這個機制通知各個ISP業者所以這個有三段那我們現在就是跟衛福部我們合作想辦法把這三段的時間都盡量縮短 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12426.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12452.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
部長我們之前已經有一個很好的案例嘛是那時候創意私房是全社會華藍不知道說原來那上面有那麼多的網站你可以加會員甚至你要上傳影片變成是累積積分是以前大家不清楚那因為社會報導之後是不到一天火速可以把他給遮蔽是至少我們用公權力讓他知道是說你不是那麼容易的Google就可以搜尋的到是那 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12453.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12475.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
避免大部分的民眾來去做點擊跟加入嘛那創醫師坊如果說有這樣的一個SOP的話那不能做這樣子一個複製嗎那再者本席過去到現在也已經一直要求我關心什麼電子菸電子菸到目前為止是非法的在台灣是不合法可是我過去看到電子菸業者是比 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12476.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12501.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
止煙還要容易讓民眾買到他還可以在網路上滿千送百還可以加會員折好禮然後還可以直接寄送到便利商店裡面不用身份認證就可以讓他取包裹那後來我確實在這段時間因為我已經質詢了快一年多的時間有看到努力但明顯還是不足為什麼 因為有些時候你Google電子煙確實沒有那些網站但有些時候還有喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12503.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12531.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
只是他的排名比較後面但我現在想講的重點在於是非法的網站照理講你就不應該是讓Google那麼容易可以直接搜尋甚至表單上都有所以我剛剛也認同你的講法就是說如果我能夠增加他搜尋的難度代表是說他的店開了沒有人知道那就變成是一般的民眾要購買要接觸就會比較困難大幅的增加他的營運成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12531.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12556.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
是那也不要怪我們是因為你是非法的部分嘛是好那所以我現在再比較直接請教像這樣這一個成人影音網站這樣子大動作的跟新北市府跟衛福部跟我們抒發部挑釁那我們後未來能夠怎麼做是通報你的時間是不是可以直接很明確告訴國人如果未來通報的話多久時間內可以把它給遮蔽是我覺得完全同意委員的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12557.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12584.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那就是第一個就是我們之前那個就是創意司法那個事件發生以後創意司法可以一天就遮蔽那其他等一下等一下聽我講那我們後來就把這個做成SOP然後加快處理速度那我們現在剛才講到說TWNIC我們速發部主管這部分我們現在平均兩個小時我們兩個小時就已經把它處理完了就是說衛福部他通知我們有辦法嗎我現在看到他上個禮拜他就是又火速恢復而且就是我剛剛講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12586.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12608.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
跟委員報告那火速恢復其實它是等於是它重新再另起新的這個域名那可能是同樣內容可能是同樣內容或部分內容相同那這個部分的話其實變成說其實這些違法網站它要申請一個新的網域其實是很很容易的所以在這部分的話其實根據衛福部其實有針對所以您是市長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12613.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12638.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那剛剛部長講兩個小時喔我就如果說你真的有辦法兩個小時那這樣子他今天開另外一個我現在不要的是一個社會事件爆發本來大家不知道這個網站結果因為社會事件爆發反而大家講說喔我原來可以點這個網站那如果說就我們速發部剛剛講的拍胸部保重我兩個小時內可以處理沒有不是拍胸部保重我知道啦這個是那這樣子我就處理可是不是說讓他新開張之後反而還可以就此宣傳說來喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12639.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12650.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
沒有 就如同我一開始就講的他就有三段嘛我要的是一個處理的問題的態度跟做法不是說今天標榜來 部長給你時間 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12652.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12680.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們有三段嘛第一個就是衛福部要發現這個事情要通知我們這是第一段的工作第二段的工作就是我們TWNIG從收到衛福部的通知再利用啟動DNSRPZ這是第二段的工作那現在我們是據我們了解就是我們中間這個地方我們平均是兩個小時但是前面那一段可能衛福部他還有一些行政程序還要再做確認等等所以拖延的是衛福部我聽你這樣講就潛台詞是這樣子啊不要這樣子那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12681.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12699.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
不是 因為你就講說我家人當鑑但是衛福部你現在看他存活了幾個小時幾天所以部長 我今天也不是說要我也不希望你們分得那麼詳細我現在沒有設陷阱提給你跳我現在只是要告訴的是說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12700.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12721.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
看到一個問題要解決問題我想這個是我們全委員會或說會議室裡面大家都大家都認為很重要的違法的東西不能在網路上販賣違法的成人影音影像因為如果說他真的有上傳那些違法影像不行那我現在只想要是不是能夠跟衛福部再加速或者說確認一下說這到底流程是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12722.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12744.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
沒有問題 因為這個事情一發生以後衛福部的時務部長馬上跟我通電話討論過兩個禮拜內衛福部速發部開會讓我們知道接下來SOP甚至有牽扯到地方政府的話 共同來商議然後告訴我們可以流程的時間跟明確的後續策略我們這個都已經做成SOP然後已經有報行政院行政院那邊也已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12747.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12762.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這個我們有相關的處理原則那沒關係那這樣相關處理原則下班錢先給我然後還有就是說我要確認是說你們到底現在的速度那未來我會持續追好不好不要再讓本席下一次來的時候還說奇怪這些違法網站怎麼還在來再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12766.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12780.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
部長你一定有看過AI現在傳了好多影片嘲諷的 名人換臉的那如果說名人換臉無傷大雅當然你換到那些名人的臉也很奇怪譬如說最近有那個陶學威龍的電影有沒有很紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12781.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12810.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
然後就把一堆名人都跟周星馳一起在那邊奪子彈是這可能你有看過你們不管但是我想凸顯是什麼賴清德總統有被換臉是川普有被換臉是蕭美琴副總統被換臉是所有有頭有臉的人其實要換臉現在非常容易是這也是差不多兩年前我們開始討論從小玉那個網紅換臉事件等等之後是當時他當然是一些性影像所以說造成犯罪但現在AI科技已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12811.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12837.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
又更前面所以任何人你幾乎不用什麼技術網路上一些教學你就可以有辦法換臉而且換臉的狀況更是以假亂真是好對所以我們現在我們面臨到這樣的一個問題如果說未來哪一天因為大家也開始在講說資訊戰認知作戰等等那未來如果說這些換臉它不是好笑的影片而是變成是嚴肅的影片甚至變成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12839.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12856.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
擾亂國安的影片等等的如果說它是違法 明確違法而且明確確定是AI生成的話我們就會馬上要求這個平台下架如果是圖利的網站的話我們就用啟動DNS RPC的機制但是如果說在LINE轉傳呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12857.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12872.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
現在我們看到很多其實是在Line轉傳對 因為Line轉傳這個問題當然那個是另外對不起我先講完那個然後另外一個很重要的重點是我們用標示我們現在事實上我們是希望說所有AI生成的影像都必須標示說我這個是AI生成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12872.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12896.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
事實上這個事情在美國政府在拜登政府時期就已經有要求各個平台像是Facebook像Google等等做這個標示可是後來換成川普總統以後美國對這方面的要求比較鬆一點但是我們認為說我們台灣還是這邊認為說應該做這個標示因為這些公司通常都是一些跨國的公司我們有什麼法規有什麼辦法管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12898.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12924.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
其實你在講的都是一個理論但是重點在於是當然中華民國我們處境不容易我們不是一個資訊大國可是另外一點是說那現在這個問題產生了我就說嘛 大家應該都有收過吧變臉的影片 換臉的影片都有嘛那我現在只是說點出這個問題不能無解啊有啊 我們現在這樣努力那我們也希望說你現在告訴我的解決就是忍耐川普總統哪一天突然覺得說這個很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12925.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12941.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
沒有我們現在也是希望我們在制定這個規則我們第一步先跟這些平台溝通然後如果說不行的話我們就希望啟動立法因為立法我們就這邊就有更強的底氣去跟這些平台溝通因為你來台灣做生意你就必須遵守台灣的法律時間上 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12943.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12965.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
時間上之前我也有問這個問題因為現在並沒有法律的我們並沒有法律的工具現在已經有AI基本法已經三讀通過過了那後續就是要有相關的作用法嘛所以說這個其實本席再來立法的部分你剛講立法其實這就是我衍生的議題其實今天不是本席幫你講完而是我們就是面對問題解決問題講重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12967.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12994.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
所以本席其實要講的是說AI基本法我們已經在去年通過了那相關的作用法其實就要出來就是有該嚇阻要嚇阻該促進產業要促進產業以及該加強要加強這些都是一套的完全同意不是說等你剛剛的回答是說等川普什麼時候想通了這個很嚴重沒有啦我那句話我沒講過我只是想說那個你現在講的我不是說我要等川普想通了但是我現在要的是說我們要怎麼做我們要怎麼做我們謝謝同學 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12995.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13023.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
就是如同委員講的我都完全同意我們要想辦法要啟動立法什麼時間點可以提出我希望在這個會期我們能有一些方案出來這個會期本席可以跟訴法部我們共同合作立院行政是一體的關心這一體的所有委員都可以一起來但是我希望行政部門可以負起責任先提出來相關的法令版本我們提出相關對應版本我們一起來研究這個會期提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13023.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13036.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
是是是針對名人變臉 針對AI軟體運用等等相關後續這是AI基本法通過之後本來就應該要有的作用法是 沒錯沒錯 委員講得完全沒錯好 我會繼續追 也請副大副一級加強謝謝謝謝好那接下來我們邀請林楚英委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13057.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13059.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請林部長我們請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13067.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13090.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
委員好好部長好辛苦了時間都來到12點鐘這個大家其實在這裡開會討論的當然是跟這個AI的相關的發展有關當然也包括了軟體的應用我趙部長歷歷萬機啦所以我現在要提的這個這一部劇你可能沒時間看不過最近非常的紅他在這個社群平台上面由這個Blackpink的其中一位這個成員他演了一齣戲叫訂閱男友 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13094.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13121.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
裡頭就是透過AI虛擬的方式以後大家不用談戀愛了就跟AI談戀愛就好那為什麼我用這個做銀子是因為我現在要關注的問題就是當AI的使用現在大家非常普遍用Gemini用ChatGDP甚至於連做報告好看的PTT都是使用但是它也演進成為陪聊所謂的聊天APP而這個聊天的APP現在已經被越來越多的使用者認為它是中國製造 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13123.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13146.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那麼我想中國製造的問題部長比我們更清楚尤其是因為中國它有所謂的網路管理辦法以及它有中國的所謂相關的安全辦法國安局其實都已經提醒那就是說這些中國製造的APP它確實不只是偷窺你的資訊收集你的資訊甚至於它會植入中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13147.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13164.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
的所謂價值觀甚至於去改寫歷史包括現在我所蒐集到的這個不論是媒體的報導或者是使用者他們特別在網路上分享的像這一個喔BIMO BIMO不知道是不是這樣唸啦因為我沒有用喔但是呢它被媒體說它其實是可以偷窺 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13166.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13194.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
使用者家裡的環境跟狀況而他背後是武漢聚發科技有限公司他會告訴使用者說自古以來台灣就是中國的領土另外一個叫做碎碎念記帳本更多的網友說他其實在跟你聊天記帳的過程他植入了很多時事而這些時事的內容不盡合理甚至於是某些政治立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13195.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13212.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那麼對於我們來說現在面對這樣子放上去的APP我們只有提醒嗎提醒足夠嗎因為現在我來擷取國安局的報告裡面特別提到了深層式的AI語言模型它潛藏的除了資安風險之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13213.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13228.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
它甚至於是會搜羅你的個人的個資之外它甚至於進一步可能維繫到國家安全所以我比較要具體的問速發部是說像現在這樣的APP放到平台上面之後速發部有 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13229.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13245.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
管理的能力嗎還是說現在因為就是反正你是拿Apple手機的你就去App Store那你如果是拿這個所謂另外一套系統的Google系統的你就是到Google的商店 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13245.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13260.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那這些放上去的不勝美舉然後非常的大海茫茫對於現在我們已經看到的這樣的一個具體呈現出來的中國製造的AI資安破口數位部有沒有一個想法如何來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13261.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13288.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
OK關於中置APP的風險我們分幾個方面來講那第一個方面就是傳統的所謂我們傳統的資安譬如說它有沒有木馬有沒有病毒這是第一個部分第二是個資的那個風險我們知道有些那個APP它收集這個個資那中國的這個APP收集個資特別的危險為什麼呢因為依照中國的法律中國政府可以隨時要求說這些軟體公司把它收集到這些資訊都交給政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13289.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13312.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以這一點我們必須讓大家都知道然後再來就是意識形態這個問題意識形態的這個問題我們希望說他的觀點跟台灣一樣的因為很多事情事實上有很多事情譬如說三權分立是不是好事台灣不管藍綠白我們都認為說對不起 有人認為是五權分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13313.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13341.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
最好全力制衡台灣大家都認為是好事可是中國的觀點就認為這個是資本主義的那個民主制度是不好的所以我們是分成這幾方面來做那我們的具體做法呢第一個我們這邊就是資安署跟資安院這邊我們會做一些檢測就是把一些中國製的APP還有事實上還有其他的APP我們來做檢測說他會收集哪些個資那他在收集個資的過程中有沒有明確取得使用者的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13342.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13367.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
讓我們就是接下來我們定期發布這些報告因為我們能量有限所以我們會開始做一些那像這種直接民眾就反映的包括我前面兩個這兩個APP的有沒有辦法一個路徑或是一個SOP他就可以處理下來甚至於他有機會下架因為其實現在民眾我們比較關心我知道說能力有限啦包括大家還有很多的產業的發展等等也要做只是說像這種已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13368.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13392.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
透過媒體報導又或者是說透過網路已經被認定就是怪怪的是那這個部分可以處理嗎我其實比較想知道的那要怎麼處理是那我們當然就是說這個比較大家比較有在使用然後坦白講媒體在報導我們優先去處理好那既然委員提到我們就那個請那個資安院資安署我們趕快去檢查這幾個做檢測報告是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13395.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13407.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那等於是說你們固定會有檢測報告現在還是停留在比較是提醒的部分那如果現在有發現了除了跟媒體講 寫在網路上有沒有通報的綠色通道或途徑還是說可以怎麼樣讓數位不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13410.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13419.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
有沒有 或者如果沒有我們是不是可以研議一個因為我覺得啦 就像詐騙一樣要集結眾人之力不然你們真的會累死那麼中國只要換個名字反正我就換個樣態那可能他還是可以借屍還魂或者是另起爐灶同樣的東西再來做處理我建議你們回去給一個綠色通道給一個這個所謂的通報專線那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13435.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13464.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
就像詐騙一樣我們把這種有資安風險的中國製AI也讓他有機會被下架或被處理好不好是非常謝謝委員這個提議我們會處理不過也不跟委員說明一下因為在資安上面通常駭客要那個進攻防守方有一個手法就是把那個防守方累死他就一直來通報一天給我通報一千個那個APP那就把我們累死了然後真正有問題的他反而我們就沒時間去好沒關係這個你們可以判斷但至少我認為可以架一個通道讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13464.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13493.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
民眾來一起來當資安守門員好不好好非常謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝好非常感謝林祖英委員接下來我們邀請謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員他不在抱歉蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13493.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13495.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
有號接著我們要請有號委員發言OK謝謝趙偉主席那有請部長我們請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13526.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13544.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
負責人午安部長午安那本席還是非常的肯定部長對於我們南投許多的協助那延續剛才許多委員的一個質詢那本席還是要接著就教剛才像洪孟海委員有提到的這個MIS-AP這種境外違法平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13545.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13572.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那剛才您有提到這個不管是衛福部這邊通報還有這個相關的一個機制還有等於是速發部等於是在第三端的部分來進行這個處理跟封鎖的機制那本席還是要接著就教因為這樣子的部分他們等於說換一個換一個方式就馬上可以持續來來上架來進行這樣因為他們這一種的類型他每一個影片可能都是對一個受害者的一個持續的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13573.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13590.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那在相關的速發部是不是能夠在已經被鎖定或去當初曾經下架的這個部分還有這樣子的平台能夠就是不用再過這個公問旅行方就是這些過程直接的就精準鎖定的直接再次下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13590.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13613.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
是 沒有錯 如同委員所說的 這個最重要的是速度對付這種很惡劣的這些網站 這些集團那我們最好的方法就是儘速下架然後提高他犯案的成本那我們的做法就是盡量電子化就是說不要再走那個紙本公文紙本公文那個動作很慢那是不是請我們那個資源司司長補充說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13613.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13639.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
剛剛委員催詢的那其實在兒少條例裡面其實有授權這個主管機關也就是衛福部建立這種網路主動巡查的機制所以其實這個部分的話其實透過衛福部應該有在透過AI的技術來即時辨別這個違法的影像是不是重複出現那這樣子的話可以在時間上如果說再次這樣上架的時候可以說人家多久時間之內就可以再次進行下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13640.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13663.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
因為這個部分的話目前應該是衛福部在建置但是他們有建置這樣那他只要有發現以後以公文的方式給我們的話其實我們在兩個小時之內目前是兩個小時之內就可以完成其實如果說當初本來就是設定是已經是因為違法被下架的話那其實同樣的內容的話應該是要直接的來去做處理而不是再次做確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13663.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13690.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
是沒錯所以跟委員說明一下這個因為我們現在通報分成三段第一個是那個衛福部來主管機關他要發現這個問題然後他要通知我們這是第一段的工作第二段是我們這邊TWNIC台灣網路資訊中心他收到這個通知以後他要啟動DNS RPZ的機制然後DNS RPZ機制啟動以後再由各家的那個網路業者他們去做這個封阻的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13691.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13710.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那分成這三段那我們中間這一段就如同我們剛剛市長講的我們已經把這個時間壓縮到平均兩個小時但是因為衛福部那邊或者是說各個地方政府像這個新北市政府他們內部我想他們會有一些作業流程那我們再想辦法就是跟他們合作幫助他們想辦法也縮短這個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13712.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13737.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
其實這個題目來講本席還是直接就建議就是說雖然被罰過的話表示他這個就是不當的內容所以說在做處理上的話還是要在機制上面去做改善如果說重新再做確認不管是怎麼樣的協助輔導那其實還是在拖延時間那如果可以的話重複內容是建議就是直接下架或是相關的違法平台就是直接做同樣的方式做處理所以說本席是希望機制上如何改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13737.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13759.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
是那再接著的話就是就是韓國大型電商平台Coupon的這個個資外卸的部分那剛才的質詢有提到說現在的調查報告是送行政院那想要直接問那相關的內容因為全國的民眾都非常的關心那是不是可以在這一個事件來講也有相關的資料後來到時候提供給交通委員會讓大家能夠進行了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13760.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13787.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
OK沒有問題好那接著就是剛才部長也有提到這個算力中心全台都要做一個部件部署那想問一下目前來講這個在因為電力的關係那所以說幾乎的話未來會往中南部的部分去做部件部署那想問一下在22縣市或是尤其是在台灣的主要的19個縣市來講都會有未來算力中心的規劃建置嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13788.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13817.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
因為算力中心其實不需要每個地方去建置那現在算力中心的那個系統就是說那個輝達那邊都做成一個一個機櫃以前那個只是一台一台的那個server現在做後來做成一個人家一個機櫃那現在這個叫super part然後更大所以他通常是建立一個算力中心然後還要很多是水冷式的所以這個蠻複雜的所以這些算力中心可能會最後選址會選在幾個縣市而已那有南投嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13819.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13843.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
目前我坦白講我沒有收到這個申請因為這是民間現在大部分這個算力中心是民間在申請在設置的所以目前好像沒有有機會的話一樣是讓我們南投可以帶動這種相關的產業的發展還有促進就業機會那同樣的因為現在的這個算力中心他在支撐這個AI的相關的計畫其實主要的支撐點就在於電力 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13844.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13862.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那現在的這個電力的問題的話其實本席也就爬過相關的報導跟討論啦所以這個電力的問題當然說主責是在經濟部可是目前來講看到要推展的全台不管是廣設36座的專利中心等等的需求電力 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13862.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13880.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那目前是沒有看到明確的一個計畫要如何來支撐這樣子的算力中心那我想說是不是可以請部長簡短的跟大家報告一下會不會來去克服這個問題關於電力的部分因為現在是由那個經濟部還有台電他們主責的那我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13881.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13901.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
會做好溝通的工作就是當民間的算力公司在做建設的時候如果遇到任何電力土地或其他方面的問題我們速發部都會協助去協調去想辦法解決這個問題當然這個電力也是我們非常關心的一個電力的部分的供應那要如何能夠穩定來支撐 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13905.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13915.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
目前我們得到的訊息是應該是沒有問題的那當然這個事情我們還要再三的跟經濟部我們確認這個協調其實如果說以兩個機組的這個機台的電力幾乎就等於是一個台電大樓整個的一個電力 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13921.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13945.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
所以說未來來講其實像看世界各國他們在不斷的強化精進以及廣設這個算力中心以及相關的數據中心所以這個電力需求是非常龐大那其實在台灣本來目前就是屬於一個越來越去缺電的一個環境所以說在會往中南部來去設置這個算力中心也好就是最主要是因為在北部的供電是非常吃緊這也是部長您說過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13946.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13970.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那未來的話你有沒有可能在蘇發部的角色也支持其實合一合二的話能夠持續來做演繹或者是能夠重啟的部分關於這個方面關於那個核能的問題當然我們很關心但是這個是由那個經濟部還有那個沒關係就問蘇發部的立場會不會支持這個可能不方便沒關係那我就直接接著問像現在來講的話中東的戰事其實他不會那麼快結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13975.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13995.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那台灣的話幾乎有三分之一的天然氣都會受到影響啊那所以短期之內不可能像如川普所說的四周內結束啊那三分之一的天然氣影響影響的不僅是整體的台灣的民生用電那所以在AI的一個相關的建置的部分電力的話更是雪上加霜啊那這個部分你要怎麼看如何克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13997.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14020.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
這個部分還是一樣就是我們會努力跟經濟部來協調另外就是算力的配置因為我們知道其實現在大部分的AI所需的算力是透過Internet所以有些算力會在海外有些算力會在台灣我們台灣因為需要主權AI我們必須有一些算力中心在台灣這樣我們在法律上我們才管得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14021.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14044.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以我們這邊速發部我們是會跟國科會經濟部一起合作想辦法在台灣設立一些那個算力中心各種做任何事情都會有一些困難有一些挑戰那我們會努力去克服去解決那姑且就不論剛才所提到的那個電力滿格論您要怎麼回應但是至少百億AI基金那一年的部分他這個總共六個投資案 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14045.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14060.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那本席還是希望速發部可以持續享受各種的方式來鼓勵來投資那讓他的百億政策基金他不僅是政策宣示能夠達到持續AI提升的效果是好謝謝委員提醒非常感謝劉浩偉委員好接下來我們邀請陳冠廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14072.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14094.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
感謝主席 我們請速發部部長我們請林部長委員午安 部長好首先肯定部長跟這個部裡面的這些同仁們那根據部裡面的資料說GPU的算力池截止到我們14年年底已經幫助到186家這個民間的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14097.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14117.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那有開放200多個模型還有AI服務那甚至其中有80家已經達到產品的規模化是那方向是對的那我們這個地方是肯定的感謝委員支持不過我們回到國內我們再來看一下就是說我們政府提供的免費的這個算力的額度它等值大概是新台幣65萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14119.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14134.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
但是業界他租一台AI的伺服器一個月大概是要80萬元左右買一台的話那就不用講要上千萬元成本是更大也就是說我們現在政府給的額度他可能是連一個月的租金都租不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14134.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14163.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那在全球就剛才有很多委員都有提到當然我們也很遺憾有些預算是被沒有辦法去做好的審查所以沒有辦法去讓我們有更多的預算來去做這個算力上面的增加更多的資本在上面更加更多的投資在上面但是我們還是回到我們剛才講的就是說65萬元跟80萬元一個月就表示說我們現在確實是有不足的這個狀況下那如果我們要把這個公共算力從驗證到可以持續性的商用的話那還是有一段距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14164.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14180.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
所謂的驗證就是說我們可能因為就為了要一開始草創的企業也好特別是AI這個產業其實一切都在草創當中我們既然說還是硬體就像有人在校稱說這個在淘清草的加州最開始的時候最先得到發財的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14182.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14209.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
賣鏟子的人是是是其後才是拋金的這樣子的整個行業的興盛是那我們現在還是在最前端還是在鏟子的部分還是在最基礎的建設的部分是那在最基礎的建設的部分如果政府能夠推一把的話那我們就有很好的其實我們已經有很好的實力在那我們就可以走得更遠走得更快是如果有從短期願證升級為可持續商業就是擴張這樣子的這樣的時程有沒有這樣子的想法如果有的話時程大概是怎麼樣各位請部長簡單來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14211.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14231.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
OK 在算力方面我們現在速發布只有40片的GPU這個數量坦白講少得很可憐但是我們這40片的GPU並不是要讓民間的公司做商業的運作這個主要是讓他們做創業家在一開始驗證他的想法的時候因為我本身也是創業家我20幾年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14232.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14258.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那個創業的時候我就在我的家裡擺一排電腦大概2萬塊台幣我就開始做我的實驗寫程式了可是現在的AI創業就如同委員所講的這台GPU的那個伺服器大概都要超過1000萬台幣所以很多的創業家他有一個那個我說靈魂的考驗他要想說他要不要把他房子抵押掉買一台算那個GPU的伺服器那我們現在就跟他講說你不用去抵押房子你來用速發布的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14259.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14282.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
算力然後做完實驗然後你實驗成功了你就可以拿你的實驗數據去找天使投資人拿到他投資的資金然後如果你失敗了那也恭喜你因為你的房子還在你不用為了擔心你創業失敗而不敢去創業所以其實數位部就等於是在扮演這個富裕氣的一個角色在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14282.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14300.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
是是是那其實未來甚至在這個富裕區角色裡面的話我們甚至可以持有部分這些我們可能看到的獨角獸的股份他可能是成為未來的新一代的這個台積電也好或者是過去是硬體未來可以是軟體或者是相關的運用嗎那AI軟體因為軟體這次也是被打的 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14301.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14316.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
因為現在慢慢走向AI agent然後慢慢的走向AI軟體那都有很多的基礎點我們希望數位部可以扮演著孵化器的一個角色回到我們剛才的問題就只有40片為什麼只有40片可不可以簡單講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14316.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14338.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
就是本來我們在去年我們是希望再增購100片的GPU算力可是很不幸的就是我們那個素產署的預算都被刪掉就提出大概是40萬被刪20萬所以那個地方部分我們就沒辦法增加我們的算力其實部長我要講這件事情我認為這不是跟在野黨的競爭不是零和遊戲是 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14340.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14361.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
其實你聽到很多的在野黨的委員都一直在提到說我們算力要增加我們算力要投資要加倍但你投資要加倍的時候你預算減少你怎麼投資加倍這是在邏輯上面沒有邏輯的嘛除非他們走到量子力學就是他既要加倍然後又要減少同時存在但是他胡說八道嘛不可能存在這種狀況嘛對不對所以我們是希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14366.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14381.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
有更多的機會來去因為把各個我們在野黨的委員們所提高他們想要達成的目的他們想要達成是算力加倍是可是他們提出來的方案是減少預算這是不符合的把它整理出來一一的跟社會溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14382.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14398.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
因為現在要需要社會給予這些政協黨的委員們讓他們知道說你們這麼做不會達成你們的目的同時會減少你們的支持度那我還是強調就是說算力的增加不管是國防預算也好還是外交國防委員會這是可以應用在百工百業上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14400.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14425.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
PLT我簡寫就是Partier這是軍方適用的美方這不也是算力的一個展現然後把它用在實際上AI的軟體的運用嗎那你怎麼可能不投資在這個上面呢所以這個是最基礎最基礎的設施這就跟許多我們在內黨委員爭取的一些哪一個道路要翻新哪一個重要的東部的鐵道要花幾億幾百億幾千億來去達通 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14430.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14456.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
你現在這動脈就是這些算力這是最基礎的從40片到100片你就可以多做一些事情多做2.5倍的事情多給更多的想要從事這些企業的人多一點機會這也是另一方面的對自己也是會增加他們的民意的支持所以我認為說這個不是零可的這可是雙贏或者是三贏的局面必須要好好的跟在黨的立委裡面來談一下其實不僅僅是在科技部 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14457.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14476.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
國防未來一定都會用到這樣子的需求啦這次的中東戰爭也是一樣嘛所以這個部分再麻煩部長好好的跟他們溝通我們沒有要做零和的但是至少要有一定的往前走一步好不好是非常感謝委員的支持我們非常感謝陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14479.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14505.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
好 接下來是蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在張家俊 張家俊 張家俊委員不在好 向大家報告我們登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢我們做以下的決定一 報告及詢談完畢第二 委員徐欣盈所提的書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14506.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14520.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
三 委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分我們請書發部及國科會盡速以書面答覆本次會議於今日結束 上 上位 |