| IVOD_ID |
17265 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17265 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026030961 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-11T13:30:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-11T15:51:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:20:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a006444df7a182e4ab3edf9eb6d658b3ba157d0edf07c12ea6909e420e9d5f16e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-11T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「中央選舉委員會人事同意權」案。二、研商「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」及「中華民國刑法施行法第七條之二、第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案」案。三、研商「李貞秀委員立法委員身分認定」相關事宜。（民進黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:44 - 15:51:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1782.553 |
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1800.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
謝謝國民黨團的兩位書記長、首席副書長現在民眾黨團國防部長正在跟他們溝通國防預算民進黨團正在開中常會都在趕來的路上所以兩位幹事長非常感謝大家準時到也謝謝法務部正部長跟各位列席官員非常感謝麻煩再等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1837.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1838.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝現在民進黨團總召蔡其昌總召也到了 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1887.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1906.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們現在三個黨團主要總召都已經到了現場我們現在開始進行我們的會議各位黨團幹部今天我們協商的題目有三個第一題是中選會統一權案第二題是刑法及刑法施刑法修正案第三題是李貞秀委員立法委員身份認定案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1907.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1924.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我要跟大家報告一下上週五3月6號溝通議程的時候大家都已經有共識就先就中選會同意權案和配合憲法判決修正的刑法以及刑法施刑法修正案均列入本週五的議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1926.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1941.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以這兩題我們今天優先來協商至於李曾秀委員身份認定我在2月24號的院會也宣告要報黨團協商所以今天也特別一併列入本次的朝野黨團協商那第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1942.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1961.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們第一題中選會同意全案因為各黨團已經有共識這個禮拜五我們要進行投票表決所以請各黨團跟我們來聆聽一下我們這邊有一個協商的草稿我們請議事人員發下去請大家看一看 沒關係沒問題你看完立刻可以發言總召室我在這邊請邱院長我的一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1966.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1987.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
今天的協商我們有三案嘛那第一案當然是中央選舉委員會的人事同意權第二個就是刑法的修正我在這邊建議我們是不是先來協商第二項的中華民國刑法的部分條文修正案啦這個案子我們讓他各長團先有 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1988.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2013.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
協商的共識結論然後再來協商我們的中選會的人士同意案我跟陳總統報告第一案是有程序問題我們要確定禮拜五就投票大家同意簽了字之後第一案就結束了我們就進到您現在探討的刑法立刻就會我們第一案就是一個程序請大家稍微看一下就是一分鐘的事情好不好陳總統您先看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2014.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2016.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們現在唸一下,我們黨團幹部來唸一下,請各黨團我們一隨便唸一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2022.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2045.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
奉主席令宣布宣念這個協商結論草稿決定事項一各黨團同意定於第三次院會3月13日星期五進行中央選舉委員會人事同意權案進行投票表決投票時間為一小時行使同意權案投票時主任委員副主任委員及五位委員被提名人並為一張同意權票 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2046.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2073.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
並由各黨團各推派一人擔任投開票監察員其餘相關投票事務工作依例授權議事處辦理令本次會議施政執行議程於3月17日星期二進行並不處理臨時提案 宣布完畢對 謝謝各黨團幹部 謝謝我們總理選工幹事長也到了現在就是一個程序 你大家同意的話我們就星期五就要投票了我們就把總質詢弄到下星期二如果大家同意請簽名好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2074.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2089.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 謝謝 請簽名投票時間過去都是一個半小時 要不要也對 阿我意思是說這樣會很晚嗎不會啦齁 OK好 陳總召有意見請發言我們這個確定簽字我們這個案就 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2093.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2116.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
就是我們這邊台灣民眾黨的concern是因為等一下還有那個刑法修正案嘛那如果等一下刑法修正案如果大家有共識的話都達成共識的話我們是不是就放在投票後面來處理那如果沒有共識如果當天還要表決還要投票的話可能是不是我們建議就是說那個刑法那個要放到前面去我們剛剛的意見是這樣也是一個程序啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2119.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2145.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我的意思是說如果刑法就是第二個案子如果沒有意見的話我們也許就放在後面大家委員比較容易安排我們請高顧問來跟大家報告一下好不好跟各位黨編說明因為我們禮拜五的院會議程要處理中選會那中選會這個記名投票表決要花一個小時那等一下就按照陳青龍總召說要先進行刑法跟市刑法的協商如果我們等一下協商的結論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2146.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2174.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
都是照協商條文沒有要表決的情形的話根據動員的習慣那大家可以先把中選會投完那接下來後面其實都不會表決了嘛那所以大家就會要緩為選區的那種但是如果等一下刑法是要表決的我們要放在中選會前面所以要看等一下的狀況對 陳同志您了解我意思嗎 陳同志就是說我們看等一下我們第二案討論的情況陳院長報告我們是要想表達這樣一個方案太好了 好 請國民黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2177.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2203.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
有沒有意見我們就同意了好嗎好那請大家簽字謝謝好我們現在進入第二案我們來介紹一下我們現在列席的法務部政部長請坐我們歡迎法務部政部長司法院許廳長歡迎您請坐前面廳長請坐檢察院國家人權委員會周執行秘書請 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2207.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2230.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
衛福部保護司張司長衛福部張司長還沒來好沒關係我們等一下好第二案我們刑法及刑法施刑法修正案因為法務部行政院及司法院來文我們先請法務部政務部長來說明之後請三個黨團我們來一續發言現在請政務部長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2234.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2262.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
院長 各位委員 午安非常感謝大院針對刑法部分條文的修正草案召開協商會議希望能夠依照憲法法庭判決使刑法修正案儘速通過避免法律空窗期產生執法的風險這次送請大院審議的修正草案總共有刑法五個條文 刑法私刑法有三個條文修正草案主要是因應憲法的判決維護社會秩序 民眾安全提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2262.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2285.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那底下有四個重點那第一個重點就是有新增的一個刑法六十三條之一這要因應一一三年宪判八號的判決明定行為史及審判中欠缺責任能力不得克制死刑那第二個重點就是刑法七十七條第三項有徵定特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋這部分大院有眾多的相關的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2285.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2305.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
現在在委員會審議中那第三個重點就是刑法七十八條之一七十八條之二及七十九之一的修正條文那增訂無期徒刑有期徒刑受刑人經撤銷假釋之後呢要如何執行相關的規範那根據一一三年宪判二號的判決呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2306.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2327.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
它是在113.3.15日宣告刑法79條之一第五項管理無期徒刑撤銷假釋之後不分撤銷的原因情節的輕重餘力執行20年或25年的規定這是違憲的而且以判決宣誓之日期禁滿兩年後失效恐怕這個如果說有釋放的一個風險會對社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2330.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2349.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
秩序跟公共安全有極大的威脅那本部甲證書也出估在15年3月14日就有17位無期徒刑徹甲的受刑人有可能會因此出監那目前無期徒刑徹甲在監執行的高達214人所以我加速立法的急迫跟必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2350.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2359.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那這一次提出的修正草案主要是依據無期徒刑受刑人撤銷假釋原因輕重的程度分別規定在執行10年15年20年三個得報假釋的一個門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2364.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2390.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那第四個重點就是為避免新舊法適用的正義所以修正刑法施行法讓法律適用更加的明確可以避免法律的空窗期建議刑法施行法第七條之三 增訂第三項明訂本次修正條文自115年3月14日施行那以上重請 懇請那個大院審酌 社會資訊跟民眾安全來支持 散開修正草案謝謝院長 謝謝各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2392.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2394.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝鄭部長的報告,那司法院要補充嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2398.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2423.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
各位委員午安對各位院長及各位委員及時審議相關條文表示敬佩之意那關於這個兩院會嫌版的部分呢除這個77條司法院加注意見以外呢與均這個會嫌同意那關於這個113憲判2相關的因應條文包括刑法三個條文以及施刑法三個條文這個部分呢他有時間上的壓力那期待盡速審議通過以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2425.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2432.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
謝謝以上報告的人為司法院刑事廳的許廳長跟各位黨團幹部來報告一下我們現在請民進黨團很關切請民進黨團請發言國民黨團請準備蔡總召 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2455.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2472.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝主席我想今天針對憲判制這樣的一個判決說無期徒刑撤銷以後那餘率去執行固定的說一定要再繼續執行他也宣示說違憲我們立法院針對這個部分實踐其實是也很 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2475.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2480.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
其實今天通過以後還好法務部今天提出來的條文裡面還有一些補救的措施是不是我們各個政黨看看參佐一下法務部的意見各個政黨大家一起來完成這個涉及到整個社會安全網民主進步黨我們也認為我們也有義務我們也跟各個政黨一樣我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2499.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2511.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我看中國國民黨還有台灣民眾黨大家私底下看這個法案的時候大家也應該有一定的一個共識啦好 謝謝莊惠雄幹事長的發言國民黨團請表達意見好嗎台灣民眾黨員請準備請翁小玲媛請發言是 主席還有各位委員還有在座的官員們大家好我代表國民黨針對法務部所提出來的這個刑法修正案然後提出一些看法我首先要講的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2529.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2547.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我希望以後法務部這個要提修法案不要拖拖拉拉大法官這次的修法主要是配合大法官的113年先判之第二號判決當時裡面就要求說兩年之內要修法可是看看你們提出的修法案是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2548.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2560.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
是都是那個兩年已經要到了甚至快要過期了然後之前你們是在去年的12月底才送到立法院來所以某種程度也是江立法院的軍啊現在我們趕快要急著要去通過你們的修法案那麼事實上當然這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2567.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2583.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
很重要好那我本身我們黨團這邊有討論本身也是支持這個法務部所提出的修法方向那麼當然待會我們會談到有些內容還是要做些調整可是呢我在這裡就是要提醒希望法務部以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2584.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2606.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
如果有類似遇到這個大法官審法判決說要快點修法的這個事情你們要加速動作不能夠說是一直拖到最後一刻然後才把條文送出來這個沒有辦法就讓大家能夠真正的充分的討論那麼接下來就是說我們開始進行逐條了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2608.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2636.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 那我就先發言到這邊 待會我們再進行主條再討論 謝謝好 謝謝 請台灣民眾黨員 請發言完畢之後我們進入主條 請好 OK 這個主席還有各位委員 還有各位媒體朋友 大家好那我想我們第一輪發言其實也是想針對這個就是宪判113年宪判2號就是這個提到我們這個五期徒刑如果假設撤銷之後 他的參與刑期如何執行的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2639.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2657.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這樣的一個問題當然憲判覺得是違憲的那違憲當然憲判也提出說法務部應該進行修法的期限是就是在兩年之內要進行修法那眼看著這個條文呢賞味期限已經到齊了結果我們法務部感覺好像還是有一點聞風不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2658.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2679.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
然後在壓線之前才緊鄰大響然後感覺要來處理這個事然後讓我們感覺到說法務部似乎有一點消極不作為那當然 剛國民黨的翁曉琳委員已經提出來了其面我們法務部接下來相關事宜的處理不要再重蹈覆轍那我們民眾黨在這邊也是再一次的呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2679.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2682.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們現在開始進入主條因為時間的關係我們增訂第63條之一是不是大家同意就本條不予增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2704.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2707.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
法務部有意見嗎 我們就不予增訂好 謝謝 我們進入第77條不予修正 維持現行條文 法務部請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2721.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2739.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
您壓一下麥克風暫不予徵訂暫不予徵訂 請三個黨團表達不予修正 維持現行條文 請三個黨團表達意見對 我們也是支持暫不予修正民進黨團 台灣民進黨團 OK好 我們第77條就本條不予修正 維持現行條文我們進入徵訂第78條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2745.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2769.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們現在行政院、國民黨團、民眾黨團皆有提到修正動議請陳清榮總召請發言有關78條之一我們台灣民眾黨在這邊主條討論之前我先要來嚴正的表達我們整個修78條之一的修正我們有行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2770.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2797.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有司法院院版還有法務部再提出一個版本那還不要提我們台灣民眾黨我們有提求證動議中國國民黨也有提求證動議關了院版司法院版法務部的建議版我都不曉得我們要來審哪一個版 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2798.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2815.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們已經看不到是行政院還是司法院他們的意見在78條之一竟然是不一致的那法務部提出來又是自己的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2816.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2844.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我想我們今天在協商之前我們究竟是要聽鄭明憲部長的還是要聽朱鎔泰院長的還是要來參佐司法院的版本所以在這裡我想一個修正案既然現在判決已經要求兩年內要來修正完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2845.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2853.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那法務部不作為要先最後大家來幫忙來 要來解套這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2854.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2882.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
但是行政院、司法院、法務部自己就有三個版本那待會加上我們民眾黨的版本中國國民黨的版本總共有五個版本那在這樣的要先處理我們都願意來解決但是我們真的要對行政院、司法院、法務部這三個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2883.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2889.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有這樣的提出我們真的要表達一點這個強烈的一個意見那 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2894.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2920.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這樣的一個說明我們也期待以後希望行政院、司法院還有你自己法務部是不是以後有機會在任何的法案都提出一個完整的一個版本才對我以向在主條大家討論之前先做這樣的一個表達謝謝謝謝陳總召那國民黨團有提版本國民黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2923.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2950.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
是 國民黨團這邊提的版本基本上跟先講整個的修法的方向我們是跟法務部是一致的但是對於就是這個撤銷無期徒刑的假釋之後重新回監執行然後是不是要經過多少年才可以再提起假釋的時間我們有不同的看法那麼基本上就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2951.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2968.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
現在國民黨團在78條之一提的這個分不同的犯罪的刑期就是依據這個他再犯的刑期的輕重那麼我們認為說如果他再犯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2970.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2983.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個被判的刑期是一年以下的有期徒刑的話那麼他可以再申請假釋的門檻是到十年那麼如果是在一年以上未滿五年的有期徒刑的話那麼他再申請假釋門檻就延長到十五年五年以上的有期徒刑或是無期徒刑的判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2994.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3021.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
犯這樣的一個罪的話那麼他在申請假釋的門檻就提高到25年也就是說對於無期徒刑他本來就判了無期徒刑可是因為就是被判無期徒刑然後假釋之後然後出獄但是他又再犯了一個新的罪那原則上他應該要回去再去服務無期徒刑可是現在的這個防務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3022.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3027.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
他所定的可以再申請的假釋門檻對於我們來說他們是比較寬鬆所以我們現在把他抓嚴一點我們就調整可以再申請假釋門檻的期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3038.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3056.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好那麼這個部分的話就是對於就是如果說他真的譬如說只是又不就不小心酒醉駕車啦等等可能被判處一年以下的有期徒刑那這時候呢他可能再做十年的牢才可以有機會再申請假釋大概是我們的這樣的方式好謝謝翁小玲委員民進黨請發言法務部請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3060.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3078.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
謝謝主席 還有我們立法院的同仁其實我相信憲判二號他講的其實就是在講一個比例原則啦會判到無期徒刑喔我們也知道說這個是大家認為是犯罪惡行重大才會判到無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3079.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3092.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
無期徒刑它又不是一個死刑這很難處理的一個問題無期徒刑它去作奸它去服刑到一定的程度達到它可以假釋了那其實還要經過很嚴格的考驗就是說你要服刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3100.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3116.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
二十幾檔啊第一次報假是你未畢業過第二次未畢業過第三次未畢業過其實無期徒刑撤銷它也不是說我假釋以後再犯罪不只這種情況喔你連違反保護管束我也可以把你給撤銷掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3117.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3124.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那所以憲判制這樣的一個出來以後啊我相信這一題我們不用太多啦其實就是你說司法院跟法務部會不同那當然會不同因為每一個人對比例原則看法會有所不同哪一個會比較高一點因為你說讓他再重新有這個機會再假釋就是在講說看有沒有辦法讓他經過這麼長的服刑以後要不要讓他再回歸到這個社會就只有在講這個而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3145.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3149.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那既然各個政黨行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3151.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3166.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
現在是司法、立法跟行政我們都肯認一點就是要讓他這樣有機會回到這個社會那回到在這個社會的時候那到底是你這個比例要你要犯輕重有別還是差一點說你是要十檔還是要十五檔還是要去十檔這一題院長我們確實是大家不用有意氣之爭、膽态之爭大家可以好好來討論一下你各黨認為什麼樣的比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3181.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3185.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你說12天,我說12天好不好?這也不是話記,你知道嗎?我們再來想想看,然後我們也來參酌法務部,法務部提出這樣的一個修法,他相信其實跟我們各政黨都一樣,就是這個社會安全網,我們要把它補起來,要不然, |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3204.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3226.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那還好一個回溯條款耶3月14號以後我們今天三檔我們就算通過了以後連總統公告都來不及耶這都來不及啊所以大家都知道各個政黨都知道這一條就是要講比例原則我們心中那一把尺到底到什麼地方我沒有特別的定見希望我們各個政黨大家可以好好來討論這一條這條專播齁都沒動牌這條是整個社會是我們的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3231.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3257.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
他查這個武器奪行的我們都認為 哎喲 如果撤銷了這個武器奪行就叫他死比較快民粹上搞不好民眾都會認為你就是很可惡才會到無期徒刑你無期徒刑被撤銷了 當然禁具在無期徒刑可是 撤銷無期徒刑有太多種嘛你可能犯重罪 你可能犯輕罪你甚至可能是因為違反保護款被撤銷掉那會有所不同 所以這個就考驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3258.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3259.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那法務部長請發言 司法院請準備 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3284.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3297.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
跟委員報告,其實我們提出來的行政院版的這些的秀章是跟司法院的會選版,這個是一致的那這是參佐那個整個一個憲判,113年憲判至2號的憲法判決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3301.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3324.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他所結株的比例原則那也撤銷假釋的一個原因的一個輕重他請檢的輕重也撤假的一個原因所以建立成績化的再一個假釋的一個門檻那這裡面當然我們分幾個級距啦如果說受刑人只是違反保安處分的規定或因故意犯罪而受未滿五年有期徒刑宣告這個是自信十年就取得假釋的門檻那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3327.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3345.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
另外在犯罪15年以上未滿10年的有期徒刑的罪執行滿15年可以報假釋如果說10年以上的有期徒刑的門檻是20年那這部分這是我們是依照那個憲法13年宣判2號的一個判決的意思來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3345.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3363.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
比例原則的以及分歧他那個請檢的輕重及原因來做一個這樣的一個條文的一個設計的那我想我們本部也是完全尊重那個委員的委員會的委員的審議的一個結果就以上的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3363.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3388.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好 許廷長請是 院長各位委員今天審議的是兩院彙弦版的78條之一那關於這個司法院之前就已經彙弦同意因此關於這個78條之一的部分兩院並沒有不同意見法務部跟司法院並沒有不同意見那至於說這個憲判這個主文第一項它只說明就是說應該區別它的情節來設定不同的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3391.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3403.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個門檻那這個部分呢不論是這個我們兩院會選版已經有做這個集聚了那國民黨版也有做這個集聚那至於如莊惠雄委員剛剛所講這個詞畫在哪裡那我們尊重政治部門的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3405.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3422.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
謝謝許廷長的補充各黨團幹部我建議我們78條之一顯然我們之間黨團各黨團之間還有一點不太一致的看法我們先進入78條之二以及後面的79條我們達成共識之後我們回過頭來再到78條之一因為後面還有兩條要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3425.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3435.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好吧這樣會速度會比較快那這個在討論78條之二跟79條的時候請各黨的幹部來思考一下78條之一等一下大家有什麼意見好我們現在進入78條之二我們78條之二各黨的幹部我們就照行政院司法院提案通過好嗎好的謝謝我們現在進入79條之一那 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3455.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3465.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
民眾黨團有提修正動議民眾黨團你要不要表達一下意見 請國民黨團也請準備台灣民眾黨團請表達意見 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3486.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3504.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我們79條之一的一個修正動議是配合78條之一所以基本上我們78條之一如果待會討論完成79條之一自然就是搭配我們的修正動議還是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3508.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3533.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
是本黨團這裡提出79條之一的修正意見主要是因為我們第77條第二項對 對不起 我們第77條的第三項不修正既然不修正的話 那麼在79條之一的話就要把原來的行政院版的第三項要刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3537.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3564.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
沒有影響就刪掉就是把那個第三項這幾個字刪掉就好但是還是維持79條之一的修正那基本上我們都了解台灣民眾黨團國民黨團的想法我們還是要回到現在我們還是要回到78條之一了好那現在我們回到78條之一那剛剛我們法務部長說明跟司法院的說明已經非常清楚了那翁曉琳委員跟陳總召你們有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3566.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3579.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
莊惠琼委員講的也很清楚 大家看看再討論一會兒 我們就準備要裁決了 好嗎好我這邊還要再強調就是說是因為我們現在修的是說是在那個78條之一是將 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3585.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3607.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
國民黨黨版是在一年以下有期徒刑只要是在犯一百年以下有期徒刑的話那麼他的身體假釋門檻是十年喔這其實這裡面還是有一些需要再思考的地方因為我們知道在現在的毒品相關的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3608.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3617.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
的犯罪的刑責有一些可能都還是處六個月以上的有期徒刑 譬如說像是C10 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3619.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3626.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
吸食毒品或是飲用什麼毒品或是有這種什麼轉讓啊等等的或製造這相關的一些器具就它在毒品危害防治條例裡面它有一些犯罪的行為基本上是處六個月以上的是非常輕的但可是我們現在的這個規定我們基本上是不分它到底是犯什麼罪然後只要是一年以下的有期徒刑宣告的話它提起可以再提起假釋的門檻是十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3647.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3662.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以就這個部分來說的話,似乎我們是不是還是要排除,再增加就要排除這個像是有重大暴力犯罪或者是有違反就是我剛剛講像什麼吸毒啊,毒品危害防治條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3664.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3678.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
他如果說被判處的有期徒刑是一年以下但是因為他的罪名是吸毒、失用、轉讓等等的話是不是應該要提高他的假釋門檻會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3680.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3709.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好 沒問題 等一下法務部長會回我們先請台灣民眾黨團 請因為你們的版本跟國民黨不一樣請好 主席台灣民眾版本很快的速度把我們的想法跟其他兩個版本的比較跟大家說明一下第一個 我們同意行政院司法院版本的這個第二項也是原來是無期徒刑他假設之後再犯無期徒刑我們基本上是認為沒有假設的可能這個跟行政院跟司法院他們這個版本是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3709.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3723.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那另外就是原來是無期徒刑經過假釋後如果他犯的是這個行政版本是五年以下的他基本上那個假釋門檻是放在十年那這個國民黨這邊是會更嚴格一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3726.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3749.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
沒有一年的話它大概就是十年那我想這個台灣民眾黨這邊採一個比較折衷的基本上就是還沒有買三年的話我們建議的是十年我再說明一下也就是說原來行政院版本它是五年然後國民黨的版本是一年那我們這邊建議是三年那第二類呢就是五年原來那個行政院版是五年到十年的嘛那我們這邊建議是三年到七年 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3750.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3778.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那另外一類呢它是屬於10年以上的那這個民眾黨版本是7年以上基本上這個假釋的門檻會變成20年這個大概是台灣民眾黨一個完整的一個概念以上好 謝謝王書記長請莊瑞雄委員請發言謝謝主席我想我也提出一些實務上的來救教大家啦就是說這個是很難判決定啦但問題你也要想想看啦一個人40歲你這判期無期徒刑的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3779.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3791.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
要關二十五年嘛你就是六十五歲嘛那六十五歲以後呢你接下來要報假釋無期徒刑我等一下要請法務部來表示一下意見我好像沒有聽說過一次就會過的嘛不可能嘛我也知道到現在為了報十七次、十八次都不會過嘛只要你要報多少次好了假設無期徒刑我把它這樣最好的我不曉得有沒有那種報五次就會過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3808.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3812.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
要看個案啦 因為那個是還是要圈毀實據嘛是我的意思是說圈毀實據但是你們應該回去再查查看有沒有統計的一個數字我的意思就是說我不是要跟民粹對幹我們是用實務上來想 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3827.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3842.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
就是說你判處無期徒刑,你如果一個四十年的,你要關二十五年,就六十五歲那六十五歲我出來我喝個酒,後來我看到莊瑞雄,他很討厭我,罵我,我都受不了,去告個他一年以下,你看他這樣又沒有他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3845.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3867.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我一直在想說這四十五歲他這樣到六十五歲報到七十五以前不容易挨到七十歲可以假釋出來以後罵我兩句他又進去關了他變成八十歲才又有機會來報假釋這個就是在講那個比例原則啦不是說我要故意覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3868.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3882.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那個出來的人他再犯他不可物不是就是說我們各黨我看起來都還算連法務部的我都覺得很嚴格啦我也覺得很嚴格但是社會大眾會認為你本來就是無期徒刑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3883.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3903.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
無期徒刑你本來就是很可惡啊,出來以後你幹嘛還犯罪有時候真的很難講,有時候出來你說他喝一個燒酒他要把你趕走,我們這裡的政體,日本我們不幫他算的或是說請人家燒茄,他燒熊的這個都是過失傷害啊,這個判下來全部都是啊那我都一直會覺得說,是不是要不要去區分故意或者過失 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3904.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3907.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這我不敢說啦 這小肥民粹的各個版本大家都到最後互相追殺我就不喜歡但是這一題我為什麼開宗明義去講說我們各個政黨就把它當成是社會那個破網要怎麼樣把它補起來就好一併啊 讓大家再重新再參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3924.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3951.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以 院長我們這些都有一定的會所 有一些社會經驗嘛社會安全我們一定要去補可是實務上我們也要特別去看到說那個一年以下有太多的所謂的一年以下那個不一樣的一個太陽你去給他算會所嘛你給他算會所 一個人關了之後除非我們就認為說他就不要出來了啦不然你如果認為還要讓他再復歸社會的話跟我們這個你說圈毀時劇說出什麼來講圈毀時劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3954.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3981.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就是說這人乖乖乖乖二十五年啊 加寫多少你認為說這個人可以讓他回去了啊回去了以後 涉及到這一種的 這麼的輕微的他又要再重新再進去了 我告訴你 再進去以後啊那個十年你不要以為十年他就可以出來 他是得到假釋而已下次再審的時候 不曉得又要是四次又要是五次一併提給大家參考 這條我不敢有定見這條社會的反撲力量太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3986.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4002.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
陳總召請我們這個民進黨我們專委員的這個建議也非常實務啦齁那台灣民眾黨體的修正案我在這邊再重修一次我們的原則很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4004.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4025.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
犯無期徒刑 經假釋之後再犯無期徒刑這個是絕對不容寬容的 這個最大的危機這一點我們基本上我們是堅持住這不危險嘛 你不去走行出來 你都反不去走行這工作讓你假釋出來 這人對社會安全嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4028.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4053.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
無法交代第二個我也認同這個就是比例的原則比例原則這個犯罪像剛剛一年他就要再十年對一年以下的獎勵這樣的一個版本所以我們才會提出我們台灣民眾黨的版本從我們法務部的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4054.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4082.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
華為部的版本是五年以下那中國國民黨的版本是一年所以我們從這樣的角度提出用三年用三年所以我們站在一個比例的一個角度還有站在我們社會的一個普遍性的一個一個大多數的一個看法我們來取這樣的一個比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4083.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4107.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
所以我們在這裡我們提出我們的版本我們也期待我們民進黨團 國民黨團大家一起來討論那我們也請侯副是不是有機會啊針對我們這樣的折衷版本啊我們不得不今天跟這個汽車公司嘛這個折衷版本然後請侯副表達意見如果OK是不是折衷版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4108.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4109.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
是完全尊重那個審理的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4119.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4122.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我身為主席,完全尊重法務部的意見因為七十八條之一能達成共識最完美 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4138.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4167.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
如果萬一達成不了我們就要送院會送完院會這個過程中還是請法務部跟各黨團繼續來溝通因為這個79條之一跟78條之一它有聯動性的所以就這兩條許廳長您要不要表達一下意見這部分我們也尊重這個委員審議的結果主席也尊重司法院的建議請范議員請我是覺得法務部跟司法院都尊重我們那你們那個提案原來的意思是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4169.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4196.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就是說這個數字從未滿五年到未滿一年未滿三年你們都接受嗎我們是跟委員報告我們是這個五年這個是113年憲判二號判決有這個建議那我們是參考他那個建議的那個意見的級距這個級距就是完全是要憲判的一個級距那當然如果說委員認為憲判意思他那個級距OK那我們是希望說委員就 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4209.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4224.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我想翁委員是法律專業但是比較重要的就是我們現在要怎麼面對社會我想面對社會今天比較大的問題可能要請院長採釋就是三黨即便是有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4226.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4245.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
但確實司法院他們所提出的案子送到立法院來都已經1月了那個時候在密集的審查所有的法案司法院也沒有特別來告知完全沒有特別來告知大法官事件已經兩年到今年3月14號到期 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4248.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4273.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
兩年3月14號到期法務部也來表示當天就要釋放第一批人或者是他們再行看用什麼方式希望立法院盡快來審議但是我們今天立法院是3月5號才知道這個事情3月14號以前要刪讀所以我們今天院長會召集協商也是因為我們收到訊號以後我們也很著急 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4275.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4303.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
但是我們立法院願意全力來協助其實這些本來應該要花很多的時間大家來討論的包括莊立雄幹事長他有不同的看法那其實大法官大法官的判決我們在這裡做一個比較簡單的把它收斂比較簡單的收斂比較簡單的收斂是什麼他說輕罪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4304.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4331.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
跟重罪都一樣撤銷無期的假釋都撤銷了無期的假釋輕罪跟重罪不應該是要一視同仁 類似酒駕所以今天國民黨 翁小林的版本已經在一年以下基本上這種輕罪 酒駕的部分已經就是第一個門檻第一個門檻如果你在拉到五年 五年上基本上已經五年上下其實就很多重罪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4332.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4359.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
而且今天販毒法院 或者是這個毒品啦 實用啦或是轉交啦 等等啦 一般都是六個月到八個月啦那這種情況之下 無期徹甲了以後又涉及毒品又涉及毒品 毒品不是說它沒有販賣 是你沒有抓到而已那所以說這個問題 我們的社會安全網到底要補多少次破網 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4363.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4387.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我想今天比較 院長抱歉喔 因為我在發言好不好你們什麼事都要討論院長喔 今天就是說我們剛剛已經表達為什麼我們在這麼急切的時間院長才是禮拜五要處理完所以我們講的重點 因為這個事情何其重要 何其重大我們從今天到 今天是禮拜三到禮拜五 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4388.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4414.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
等於立法院面對這個事情只有兩天內要解決兩年的事情就要立法院兩天內解決這對社會安全網請問司法院法務部要怎麼交代那所以我想今天的重點是大家各自的版本對人民負責其實今天不是要誰說服誰應該是大家各自的版本對人民交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4416.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4442.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
然後呢大家一致決議禮拜五經由院會處理之後我們就給他刪毒這才是重點嘛這才是重點嘛因為我們現在不是要誰了因為兩年的事情我們要兩天之內解決而且你說會判無期不是殺人就是製造販賣毒品這種社會最嚴重之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4444.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4455.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們在海之旅來討論說一年多少五年多少這不是蔡市長就誠如莊烈雄幹事長講的這不是蔡市長在講這些嗎這應該用更長的時間來做討論的不是給我們兩天的時間來做結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4459.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4485.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我想各自各自各自政黨各自政黨必須對人民負責我們自己來討論到時候我們來院會處理我想這才是重點好不好還有我要特別強調剛剛大家講的數據是不對的不是什麼叫做25年在94年以前94年以前是無期徒刑10年就可以報假死在94年以後更誇張雖然是號為25年 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4489.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4498.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
但是我們從109年統計到111年有657個人無期徒刑有657個人報假釋平均執行才17.9年根本不是25年滿了以後再往上報假釋那報了N年再出來所以才17.9年就出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4515.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4526.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以我們今天要正確的數字要讓人民知道讓我們一起來面對這個問題好不好 謝謝主席好 謝謝副總請蔡總召請謝謝主席我想今天討論這個它的關鍵的問題在於要趕快快速的把這個破洞補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4541.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4558.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這些不應該 憲法法庭判 它沒有依比例原則來處理沒有依比例原則來處理 要求我們來處理這個事情所以今天朝野各政黨大家提的版本 其實都是捕破王的一種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4559.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4578.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那所以呢剛剛我很尊重法務部跟司法院的意見那他們也會覺得他們提的版本只是依照憲法法庭在判決內容裡面那種集據來做一個幾年必須要幾年後才能夠假釋再犯幾年的罪要幾年後才能假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4579.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4597.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那其實對我而言,我認為緊述讓這件事情,緊述讓這個法案通過,讓社會沒有恐慌,讓這個問題趕快解決,這個才是立法院今天的重中之重。所以如果司法院跟法務部沒有意見,就如同剛剛我們莊惠雄委員講,他也沒有定見啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4598.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4606.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以為什麼會讓主席來裁示的原因是因為這個就沒有什麼叫做國民黨民眾黨或民進黨的問題嗎因為法務部也覺得他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4611.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4635.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
他的版本只是依照憲法法庭的那個結果他來定出一個級距他也沒有說哪一個級距是一定最好或一定最對所以如果大家覺得嚴格一點主席才是如果覺得嚴格一點那民進黨也可以接受啊因為我們的目標是快速的讓這個案子通過不要出現違憲的爭議然後不要讓社會出現恐慌這個就是我們今天的目的嘛所以我還是覺得啦這個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4638.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4652.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個草野的合作這個法案就是很好的案例所以是不是讓主席來做一個裁示我試試看我先說一個裁示那我們78條之一 79條之一我們就送院會處理在這個送院會處理期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4654.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4681.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這個期間請法務部能夠跟各黨團用有限的時間來進行一個溝通到最後我們禮拜五院會一定處理那也回到三個黨團總召一個良議啦就是說在禮拜五之前我們完成三讀這一點是大家都已經有這個共識我們大概還有兩天的時間部長有借這個空檔跟三個黨團來溝通禮拜五我們就要進行處理了好不好七八 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4682.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4688.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
七八聊之一跟七九聊之一它連動的愛情沒有好 我們休息五分鐘 部長喘口氣 休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4703.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4704.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
沒有一點事做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4733.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4733.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
兩天要我們處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4755.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4773.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
阿今天是要轉所以我也聽完他講所以我們也會講說完全是重視國際運動的神聖禮貌因為不管是民眾黨反抗或不民黨的反抗我還是要多今天把他處理好所以我們三個想要確認所以不要說你們倆我沒有要看你我沒有要看你 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4783.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4792.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你要做什麼?你這個頭要逛,你應該要知道有誰講法,你是誰講法所以他打給標籤的所以FIX這些FIX都不曉得FIX那所以你不拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4801.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4802.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以說你們在講話你們都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4819.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4830.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
就禮拜五六三 趕十四號集合餐就是這樣 好不好那至於什麼版本 可能三個檔期間一起來互相代表一下 一定要有一天的時間好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4836.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4836.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好感動 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4852.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4857.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你再去跟人家報仇,我也支持你,但是又沒有結婚 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4872.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4873.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
對 我們還要進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4890.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4897.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我們進來時期比較好那你怎麼叫公民拜國主義啊我們在拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4915.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4919.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
因為保護在今天不見他就要保護他說上個班很多客 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4933.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4934.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那這一批的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4964.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4964.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5309.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5328.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好 謝謝 我們休息完畢以後 大家顯然還沒有辦法達成一致的共識我們就把78條之一 79條之一保留送院會處理我們現在進入施行法這邊有三條條文第七條之二第七條之三及第七條之四修正條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5332.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5353.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
第七條之二我們就照國民黨那個修正動議協商內容的通過各位黨團員沒有意見沒有意見好謝謝我們增訂第七條之三本條保留請司法院請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5355.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5383.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
剛剛討論七條 國民黨版施行法七條之二第一項部分建議在那個倒數第二行第一個字後 後面加一個者就但書這邊但怎麼樣 行為終了或犯罪結果發生加一個修正施行後者七條之二啊七條之二第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5387.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5404.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
再單書齁 那這個倒數第二行94年1月7日刑法修正施行後加一個者加一個記者的者 可以好那我們就修正通過 謝謝許廳長那增訂第七條之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5405.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5434.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那司法院行政院還有國民黨團所提修正案本條就保留了我們就送到院會像剛才刑法第七十八條之一樣好不好好我們現在進入徵定第七條之四本條照司法院行政院跟國民黨團所提的本條不予徵定請問各黨員有沒有意見沒有意見好那我們在哪裡在哪裡院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5436.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5462.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
莊委 熊莊委 請發言各位長 報告齁 因為剛也已經裁示啦齁 說要請法務部 要去想一下但是我也特別要去提醒啦這一次其實因為剛去講說什麼司法院跟法務部是同調其實我不認為你們有同調啦 你知不知道現判喔 現判那個二號啊其實我也有去把他看得很清楚啦他倒是有去規定輕重的部分 他對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5464.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5470.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那個保護管署的部分它有列嘛它有列給你們參考嘛它就說保護管署其實它是三五檔啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5472.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5486.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
當然是他在 憲判他是在理由書裡面講啦我是很怕說我們又留一個尾巴啦有一個尾巴 因為畢竟喔再去觸犯刑法跟違反保護管束啊這個部分是 這個是輕重確實會有所不同雖然憲判二號裡面他是在整個理由書裡面這樣去提到我 我是一併去提醒你們啦否則齁 否則這這個案裡面啊照大家的意思 我沒意見啦啊 但是不是事後還有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5500.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5504.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
不要說好事之徒啦他有人一發現以後你看你們三個黨秀出來了又跟那個憲法法庭的解釋又不一樣了至少我們也去跟他們回應一下會不會好一點我不知道 一併提 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5515.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5538.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
提供行政部門做一個參考好不好啊不然你說行政院的看法跟司法院的看法是一樣的我從憲判理由書裡面看你們其實是還是有有不一樣的一個地方以上好謝謝卓榮雄為善意的提醒各位黨團幹部還有列席的法務部司法院所有列席的官員我們現在讓我嘗試性的來念一下我們今天達到了寫上的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5539.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5560.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
寫商的主題行政院司法院罕見審議中華民國憲法刑法部分條文修正草案及中華民國刑法實行法第七條之二第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案我們達到的寫商結論有三條一中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案一第六三條之一不予爭定二 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5561.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5574.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
第67條不予修正維持現行條文更正第77條不予修正維持現行條文三第78條之一及第79之一均保留送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5576.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5598.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
四 第七十八條之二 照行政院司法院提案內容通過二 中華民國刑法實行法第七條之二 第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案一 第七條之二 照協商內容通過 享入附件二 第七條之三 保留送院會處理三 第七條之四 不予整頂 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5600.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5621.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
上開兩岸於3月13號院會處理中選會同意權案之前進行處理陳總召這句話你有聽到喔你最關心了並同日完成三讀處理之後廣泛討論及逐條討論後均不再發言逐條時保留條文依各黨團版本提出先後進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5623.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5646.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
兩岸完成三讀之後,均不提出複議。完成三讀之後,各黨團推派一位委員進行發言。請問各黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒有意見,請簽字。謝謝。那謝謝法務部跟司法院還有列席的各位官員,謝謝啊。好,我們進入下面一案,今天朝野協商的第三題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5651.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5665.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們現在進入言商李貞秀立法委員身分認定相關事宜本案由民進黨黨團提議我們現在介紹今天列席的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5676.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5679.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們今天列席的官員首先我們介紹內政部劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5703.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5732.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們內政部還有一些相關類型的官員我就不一一稱呼了我們現在中選會吳副主委 歡迎您 請坐請坐你這麼大的名號怎麼上面沒有你的名字 是我們的私底歡迎歡迎 請坐請坐在後面 對不起對不起我們今天因為案子有一點亂 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5734.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5742.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
會會的邱主委好謝謝我們會場稍微拜託一下大家請就座好嗎要離開了就請謝謝大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5750.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5764.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
要跟各位黨團幹部的列席官員報告一下我們這個李貞秀委員選舉過程中我等一下我先請相關的官員報告完畢之後我們再請提案的黨團 民進黨團請表達意見依序國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團繼續表達意見我們先請內政部部長陸惠珠 中選會分別表達意見好嗎 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5772.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5795.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
謝謝院長三個黨團的各位幹部大家好內政部所主管的國籍法在這個案件裡面是根據國籍法第20條的規定這個20條的規定講得非常清楚也就是說公職人員在就職或到職前一日應該出具放棄國籍的一個申請書我們收到這個申請書之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5797.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5813.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那當然希望他在一年裡面呢就完成這個放棄那在二十條裡面規定的非常清楚就是說有關民選公職尤其是在立法委員的部分呢他的解職機關是在立法院那這個都寫在國際法二十條裡面非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5814.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5829.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那所以呢相關的那個法律呢我想各位委員也都非常的清楚所以我們在從這個李貞秀女士呢在宣誓就職或者是說在這個報道的時候呢都有三度啊去函包括我們立法院的這個秘書長還有包括中選會或者是陸委會等相關機關提供這方面的訊息給大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5837.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5858.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那到目前為止我們也還是沒有收到這個李貞秀委員所提報的有沒有放棄這個中華人民共和國國籍的任何的證明書那當然這是影本因為他如果要提報的話是提報給這個立法院因為立法院是這個立法委員的一個任職機關所以以上我們的認定是到目前為止還沒有收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5863.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5872.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那既然還沒有收到的話呢應該是他沒有辦法依照國籍法來擔任這個立法委員的資格以上簡單報告好謝謝我們請陸委會邱志偉中選會請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5877.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5897.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝院長 謝謝三黨的黨團官部各位委員有關於李正修女士任職相關的法律規範第一是不符兩岸條例第21條登記參選的資格陸配取得定居資格後仍然如果有保留中國大陸戶籍的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5898.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5922.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
依據兩岸條例仍屬中國大陸人民不符合兩岸條例第21條參選資格兩岸條例第二條規定具有中國大陸戶籍者為中國大陸人民第九條之一規定國人不得在中國大陸設立戶籍為者註銷在台戶籍登記並喪失台灣人民身份及法律權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5923.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5949.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們在第21條規定中國大陸人民未在台灣設有戶籍滿10年不得登記為公職候選人所以兩條例第21條適用的前提必須是該原入籍人士已經在台設籍並且不具有雙重戶籍才有可能起算在台設籍10年的期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5950.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5975.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
第二點參選人登記時如果還具有中國大陸人民的身份依法就不具有參選資格如果參選人登記時如果具有中國大陸人民身份他台灣人民的身份就會有爭議也違反了兩岸條例單一戶籍的制度自然無法起算兩岸條例第21條涉及滿10年期間不具有兩岸條例21條的參選資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5978.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6006.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那所以李貞秀女士雖然在1999年就是民國88年在台涉及但是我們一直到2025年3月她才提出繳交喪失中國大陸戶籍的證明所以政府確認李貞秀女士從結婚來台到2025年3月前都沒有向海基會或 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6007.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6035.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
移民署提出任何註銷中國大陸戶籍的證明文件李貞秀女士在112年年底列為不分區立委名單當下也未向移民署提出繳付上司中國大陸戶籍證明身份轉換程序並未完成事證比較明確政府依法行政所以在法律上並無任何任何的爭議以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6036.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6062.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
邱主委的報告中選會您請表達一下意見好嗎我們三個黨團幹部很急切的想聽到您的講法好 院長還有我們三黨團的各位委員我想我們中選會的立場我們依照公職人權選罷法的73條第一項第三款的規定來完成六位的這個地步那現在如果有發現到說自死就資格有問題我們就會提我們新成立的委員會來做審議討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6066.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6085.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好,我們請提案的民進黨團表達意見,國民黨團請準備謝謝主席、院長,還有我們各位同仁李貞秀委員,這個台灣民眾黨連接的委員,我們特別有意見這個是一個到底法律要不要適用的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6086.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6108.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我相信擔任中華民國的國會議員每一個人對於國家都必須要有忠誠的一個義務你擔任這個公職如果說有忠誠義務的一個衝突的話這當然是有備於整個法律的一個規定我相信剛剛內政部劉部長還有陸委會還有我們中選會這個地方都有提到我就反過來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6111.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6139.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
中選會現在的說法是說,你們這裡都說來了,到底有符還沒有,對我如果有一個,我們中選會,我們人有夠了,我們來開會,有開會你覺得不符合,你這個部分很顯然的就是提及司法訴訟的一個,你們要走的路嘛,這是中選會,但問題就是說,你按照陸委會跟內政部的講法來講的話,其實也是我們法律的一個規定,國際法的規定,或者說兩岸人民關係條例的一個規定,大家很清楚嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6140.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6159.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
李委員的部分 李振秀的部分不是我在說你這個人不好 我現在不是跟你說這個現在是在說國籍的部分很顯然的國籍法你違背了戶籍法的部分你說你這個人到底有租給人參算嗎如果是沒有的 那是致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6160.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6183.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
自始就沒有這樣的一個資格所以我倒不認為這個是黨團的問題我覺得這是韓院長你該傷腦筋這個議題啊我說我們 你幹嘛我不是對你什麼人有意見嗎你什麼人我也不認識你啊是說我們法律確實就是這樣的一個規定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6184.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6188.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
內政部也不是要敵視你台灣民眾黨你陸委會也不是要敵視你台灣民眾黨這個是我們法律明文規定不論是誰來執政對於國家忠誠義務的衝突的部分你怎麼處理的問題啊所以我相信這條是合議啦一定你就發揮一下你的智慧啦那其實是有沒有放棄文件拿出來就很清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6208.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6212.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這張,這張我以前叫過,有這張我今天去黨團準備的,我們都要簽給我們立法院的本人,這一張啊,院長這張大家都要簽,連立立也要簽,大家都要簽的啊,這個是很清楚的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6224.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6242.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
你如果簽 大家都有簽 只有你沒有 還是你要倒退 跟別人不一樣的這個就你台灣民眾黨要去對外解釋喔今天大家講的不是說我們要剝奪誰 都不是是誰有沒有符合這樣的一個資格 可不可以當國會議員你說哪一個政黨 我們這個政黨說可以就可以 你要留下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6243.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6260.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
對你 你是都沒人能夠撐嗎 你要留在那裡 台北我也沒意見 我也不能說我的意見我是站在於說 不管誰要進到立法院來 國家都是大家的大家照官來就是說 第一天老百姓被你的期待 你要對這個國家賦予忠誠的義務當這個忠誠義務 人家認為說 你怎麼有兩個國籍 你怎麼有兩個戶籍的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6267.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6274.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
產生衝突的時候法律規範要怎麼處理其實這個部分是清清楚楚的以上跟大家來再說一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6283.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6306.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
首先有關於國籍的爭議的部分剛剛內政部引用的是國籍法第20條但是因為事實上依照憲法徵修條文第11條的規定自由地區跟大陸地區的人民關係的權利跟義務是以法律為特別的規定所以適用的應該是我們兩岸特別條例當然大陸人民並不是國籍法定義的外國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6306.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6329.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以內政部引用國籍法其實已經逾越了這個憲法徵修條文的相關規定那兩岸條例根據憲法徵修條文第十一條授權制定的這個特別法所以本來特別法應該就是要優於我們的普通法的法律所以關於參政權當然應該優先適用兩岸人民關係條例那當然限制人民的參政權屬於限制人民的基本權利必須要有法令的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6330.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6349.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那現行的兩岸人民關係的條例並沒有要求陸配必須放棄國籍證明行政機關如果自己擴權的解釋的話就是違反依法行政屬於行政的一個濫權那因為兩岸互不承認主權所以中國大陸根本不接受陸配申請放棄國籍所以陸委會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6350.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6376.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
隨政主委都已經講過了從來沒有一個陸配能夠成功的完成放棄中華人民共和國的國籍既然在現實上是不可能完成的任務法律就不該強人所難那針對戶籍的部分我們知道就是依據兩院條例第21條的規定非在台灣地區設有戶籍滿10年不得登記為公職候選人但10年的起算點並沒有明定以繳交上司員籍證明為起算點 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6377.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6395.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那李政秀委員其實在1990年就已經取得台灣身份證跟戶籍既然內政部當時就已經核發了他身份證以及取得戶籍代表就已經符合兩岸人民關係條例第21條的設有戶籍滿10年的規定那根據李政秀委員的說法他其實在19 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6396.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6415.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
99年就已經依法獲准在台定區設立戶籍同時也註銷在大陸的戶籍所以去年3月他申請的是證明文件並不是辦理處級所以說他是在就職前就已經完成了行政的一個補件並不會影響他存在的法律的身份所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6416.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6440.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
李政策委員既然已經獲得中選會的審核通過也在大法官的面前宣誓完成那多年來政府也認可他公民的身份所以參政權應該受到保護所以為民進黨認為法律的漏洞其實應該透過修法來解決而不是在當事人依法地譜之後才進行這樣的政治追殺以上謝謝徐宇甄委員的發言請台灣民眾黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6442.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6470.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好 謝謝院長首先謝謝我們韓國瑜韓院長保護我們每位立法委員我記得韓院長之前公開表示會保障每位立法委員的一個問證這是我們院長的天職在這裡臺灣民眾黨表達感謝那我先就法的部分跟我們實際的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6471.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6491.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我先問一下我們各位請問我們民進黨政府陸培是外國人嗎?陸培如果外國人如果你認定陸培是外國人那當然你就來採用國際法的規定那從憲法的政修條文我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6495.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6524.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
就是無法用國籍法來處理兩岸人民的一個問題所以我們才會在憲法徵求條文來徵定了兩岸人民關係條例來把它分為台灣地區跟大陸地區那就正如我們舊法來講兩岸人民關係條例是特別法一定優於普通法那就是因為要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6526.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6548.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
適用於兩岸人民的一個往來交流所以才制定了這樣的兩岸的沒關係條例那如果今天以我們內政部也好我們陸委會也好所論述的要依據國際法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6551.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6574.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那我就在這裡直接請問我們陸委會你有存在的必要嗎?陸委會為什麼存在?今天陸委會的存在這個事就可以來反證我們在大陸地區跟台灣地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6576.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6599.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們兩個人民是沒辦法用國籍法來處理舉一個簡單的例子我們台灣人民到大陸去我們拿的是台胞證大陸地區人民來到台灣拿的是乳台證這是我們國籍法 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6605.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6613.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這一個認定嗎還是經由兩岸的民關係條例來執行的我在這邊來說明李正秀這個李正秀當然是我們現在的一個合法合規的立法委員但是他也代表我們廣大的陸配這樣的一個身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6635.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6637.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
他是否適用國籍法這一個問題那我在這邊我們認證部所提的他應該要適用國籍法第20條第一項跟第四項規定的中華民國國民取得外國國籍者及中華國民中華民國國民兼具外國國籍者 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6663.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6689.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這一個國際法的一個立法就是由我們立法院來認定那認定後的處理絕對不是內政部或內政部的下轄機關來質疑可以扭曲來解釋的因為法律是由我們立法院所制定的那立法原意的李征秀他不是中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6690.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6711.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
國民取得外國國籍者 不得擔任中華民國公職的使用對象我再講一次 李貞秀不是中華民國國民再取得外國國籍者然後不得擔任中華民國公職的使用對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6714.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6733.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
中華民國國民取得外國國籍者是指本為中華民國的國民後來去辦理而取得了外國國籍本來就是中華民國的國民後來又去辦理而取得外國的國籍那陸配 陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6736.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6762.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
他原來就不是我們中華民國的國民我們兩難條例制定的時候是界定為中華民國人民人民他須向政府申請許可來台定居與社利戶籍的同時領取了我們中華民國的國民身份證從而才成為具有中華民國國籍的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6765.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6782.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
兩岸人民在對岸進軍註銷了原色戶籍的同時因需被收繳或註銷國民身份證和護照而喪失國籍這樣兩岸人民才會有單一的身份或單一戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6783.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6804.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
在這樣的情況之下,在兩岸關係的法制用叫做轉換身份,根本就不從於國籍法中的規劃。所以申請應該由內政部依法進行條件的特期而喪失國籍,我在這裡講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6806.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6818.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
李貞秀他原來就本身不是我們中華民國的國民去取得外國國籍所以他他不是私人 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6819.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6846.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以就這個過程李征秀他絕對適用於我們兩岸人民關係條例所定的大陸地區跟台灣地區所適用的條文這裡我一定要在這裡先說明清楚那我在這邊也來再做一個表達我們兩岸人民關係條例在蔡英文總統執政的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6850.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6876.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
從頭沒有問題也沒有這個爭議來到現在賴清德總統執政的時候陸培的參政權變成了一個爭議這樣的一個一套法律會因為不同的執政者執政黨而有不同的一個解釋跟說明我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6877.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6906.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這是應該是一個政治的操作而不是就法律的一個認定那我也來請教陸委會我們現在有陸配成功的放棄中國的國籍嗎?有這樣的案例嗎?那我也來請教海基會也請教內政部你這些委員啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6907.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6922.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他也適時的到大陸去放棄了他的戶籍也取得了證明那這個證明也經過了我們還機會文件的一個認定那這樣的一個驗證的結果確實他也註銷了戶籍但是在這樣的一個過程我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6936.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6940.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
內政部 我們陸委會還是可以不同的一個解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6942.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6968.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那我想請教海基會的驗證海基會的驗證是不具備效力的嘛海基會不是受我們內政部的委託授權委託做我們兩岸人民關係的文件做驗證嗎那海基會驗證的文件你內政部不承認嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6970.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6979.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以種種的這樣的一個過程我們還是認定這是稱職操作理政協委員任期參選經過我們中選會的資格審查成為合格的一個候選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6992.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7021.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
經過全體國民的一個投票今天正式經過中選會這個通知頒發的讓選證書成為中華民國立法院的立法委員也依照規定在高法官的面前來宣誓就職效忠中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7022.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7038.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這樣的一個宣示他已經完成所有的法定程序他就是一個合格合法的一個立法委員這是班長團在這邊做以上的一個表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7039.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7057.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那個莊銳雄委員發言之後請中選會內政部準備來答覆一下好不好我們來介紹一下我們請莊銳雄委員請二次發言范雲委員請準備好 謝謝院長那其實我很尊重青龍雄的發言啊但是有幾個地方我也不得不指出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7059.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7084.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我現在我從八九十到十一擔任立法委員我也都經過大法官的宣示現在如果發現我有像李貞秀同樣的狀況的話那我也自食不服這個資格倒也不是說因為大法官宣示了以後啊這個資格就是說你們任何人都不可以剝奪我們現行法律的規定是你只要有這些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7088.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7107.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
現在怎麼來處理的問題 這第一個第二個 其實剛剛你提到的都是在講國籍法第一項國籍法第一項沒有錯 它是中華民國國民取得外國國籍者你的意思就是說 我是中華民國國民 我再去取得中國的國籍你這樣會誤導 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7109.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7123.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
本案在講的是第四項,是中華民國國民你本身兼具外國國籍者,你這要看好,我很怕你們會跟你講完,沒關係我們來溝通一下啦,就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7124.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7146.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
法律大家會有不同的一個看法啦 因為你說如果要這樣就不用有陸委會的一個存在全世界很多的一個 陸委會這個存在我就不用我多費口舌嘛這就貴於國民黨執政的時候就這樣嘛 這一個比較特殊的一個安排你們要認為把它當成中歐國 中華人民共和國 我是不承認的它不是一個國家 我也沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7148.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7166.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
任何一個國家你取得他的國籍以後你也不擔保你馬上有參政權啊每一個國家可以做一個他自己的一個安排啊你取得因為你是中華民國的國民了我也可以跟你講如果我們立法院我們同意的話我們也可以講說你五年後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7167.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7194.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
十年後你可以參選什麼每一個國家他可以做這樣的一個安排所以我們都不要顛倒過來講我是比較想知道說你說他有去申請放棄中國的戶籍保溫我沒有意見因為那個有經過海基會的認證可是要注意的就是說我們今天講的是在講說那個參選資格的十點他到底是不是有具備 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7196.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7198.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你如果有具備,那具備的民進黨在跟你說什麼?我們在跟你說什麼?沒有嘛!我們現在就是說事實來做一個澄清啦!就是說這個時間點你還要做,你要登記候選人的時候,你那個時候如果說,哎喲,你連中國還有戶籍,那違反!違反!那個是各個政黨之間,對他這個要把他當成候選人的時候,你們自己沒有去弄清楚! |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7220.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7246.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
不去創情策啦不是說你們台灣民眾如果落錯就落錯什麼人可以做不可以做我們現在不講個別國會議員的好跟壞我們現在不是談這些是說那自始他有沒有取得這樣的一個資格那如果沒有啦進來了以後就像我講的我偷偷摸摸進來當了世界立法委員沒有一個人看出來我有另外國家一個國籍發現了以後我也是解職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7247.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7252.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
也是這樣子啊 不是說大法官來給我監視的事實我不能講說 欸 那大法官都派人來勒四天我都站在那裡 他給我作證 我就是中華民國的立法委員倒不是這樣子 以上來大家做一個參考啦好 范議員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7264.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7292.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我這邊也想補充跟澄清的是因為剛剛有人提到說什麼蔡英文執政或者是賴總統執政那我要講就是說這個跟誰執政沒有關係也跟歧視哪一個群體無關又很明確的是就是這是參政權不是人權參政權是特別的一種權利每個國家都有這樣的規定那事實上呢我想剛剛還有人提到說已經宣誓了好像已經怎麼樣了中選會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7293.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7314.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
過了那是不是就一切都是擔保那我舉個例子今天你大學考上大學拿到註冊通知甚至拿到學生證那後來如果發現畢業證書是偽造的或者資格不符學校當然有權利撤銷學生證就自然失效或者是繳回所以我要講的事情是過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7315.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7333.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
李慶安也因為被發現是美國籍是雙重國籍時間是2009年1月那時候是國民黨執政所以這沒有歧視美國人的問題那現在當然也沒有歧視中國人或者是來自對岸的陸配也跟誰執政沒有關係我們是在守護法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7333.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7359.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那剛剛就是你們還有提到說這個不是外國籍就是之前我們都有提到說兩岸互不隸屬所以中國不算外國國籍那我提醒大家的部分是其實行政院在112年就已經函釋了那個時候也沒有發生這個案子就是當處理到國籍的時候除了中華民國國籍以外其他都是外國國籍這是很明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7359.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7378.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因為像我們在處理院士資格的時候也都有相關的討論那為什麼這件事情很重要因為國籍法是一個普通法那它很明確講到公職的單一國家效忠那我要提醒大家這不是台灣獨有的民主國家都有譬如說我最近做國會外交的澳洲它也有這樣的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7379.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7405.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那還要再提醒大家不只是這種沒有明確敵國的澳洲如果是有明確敵國的其實規定是更嚴格的大家如果去看看芬蘭愛沙尼亞這種明確旁邊有俄羅斯的規定更嚴格因為這個是國家安全其實也是保護相關人的人身安全因為你雙重效忠比如說對岸最近通過了已經不只是制裁支持台獨的連不積極統一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7408.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7426.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
他都有可能會懲戒對岸最近要立這個法所以我最後回來要講的是之前我一直都是呼籲民眾黨自己就可以解決這個問題因為這是不分區嘛那可是民眾黨沒有回應那我覺得立法院應該要自己處理所以才會在我們上一屆的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7427.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7446.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
三長的公文請那個韓院長來秉公調查那我們依照法律的話事實上國籍法20條就有明定除了剛剛莊瑞雄所講的他最後是說中華民國國民兼具外國國籍者應於到職前辦理放棄外國國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7447.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7472.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
前面各位可以看一下還明訂立法委員由立法院解除其公職就是如果有這種雙重國籍的狀態所以立法院是有這個責任應解除的所以我想請問秘書長因為剛剛我們專業熊幹事長已經告訴大家宣誓的時候有這張表格我們每個人都提過上面明確問你國籍法 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7472.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7487.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
然後所以講得很明確是要自己親簽才宣誓的那如果李貞秀委員就明確的說謊而且我發現不只這張單子連我們的人事資料我自己的資料也找出來了也有問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7488.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7514.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
就是說有沒有外國國籍有明確溝所以他如果在這裡就說謊那就不是我們之前聽到的中選會申報書說謊放棄戶籍說謊那這秘書長可以公佈啊那秘書長我想請問秘書長就是說我們今天是不是能夠看看他是不是有明確說謊因為我覺得這個資料很重要那不要跟我說個資提醒大家個資法有一條但書 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7515.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7543.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
涉及公共利益的時候就是不受這個個資法的保護個人資料的限制那這是公職的擔任有沒有違反這個國籍法裡面相關的規定那兩岸人民條例違反的這個陸委會已經講過很多次了我們就不爭論了我自己是覺得立法院不是法外之地韓院長就是這是一個超越藍綠的我剛剛以李慶安為例那是在馬英文 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7544.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7545.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你放心你發言沒問題今天不能夠找出來嗎因為只有113份而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7566.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7595.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好 那我有權要求因為那個公文除了經驗協商之外裡面有請韓院長調查稍微你放心 你發言完我們就會我們會做我們應該的處理那翁曉琳委員發言之前我們請人事處黃處長先唸一下我們人事處黃處長把這個李正修委員的資料也調出來那個李正修委員我們在就任前就有請他填句那個回覆書那他當事人他委員他是牽涉他只有中華民國國籍不具有外國國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7596.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7603.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
他這就是明確說謊啦 他有三份資料說謊所以我們立法院應該可以自己處理好 翁小玲問請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7605.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7631.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我覺得每次跟民進黨只要是討論到有關於國籍的問題的時候我就覺得那個根本就是這個雞同鴨講看看我們中華民國憲法怎麼規定看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面怎麼規定什麼叫做國家統一錢你的國家到底是指的什麼國家我覺得劉思芳部長常常都會就是企圖用現在他們去曲解國籍法去曲解中華民國憲法來搞兩國論我不客氣就是這麼說 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7634.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7655.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
你們可以修憲啊你們可以把國家的統一前的這幾個字給它修掉啊你們有提案嗎為什麼不敢提案按照我們現在中華民國憲法裡面所談的就是一國兩區我們的主權是涵蓋到大陸地區除了自由地區之外就是大陸地區治權我們現在是在台澎金嘛所謂的這個在憲法上面我們講的是自由地區這會涉及到什麼國籍法 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7664.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7674.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你國籍法的話你要承認中華人民共和國它是個外國你們有這樣承認嗎?你們有這樣宣誓嗎?你們現在的做法是這樣嗎?你們跟他們取得的是什麼樣的關係所以我就說不要在那邊一直曲解在誤導國人在我們中華民國憲法裡面就講得清清楚楚在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也是一樣它第一句是怎麼說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7691.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7709.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
什麼是你的國家?所以你還是中華民國的內政部的部長你有仔細把這個條文有讀好嗎?你了解這裡面的文字的意涵嗎?更何況我覺得更可笑的是今天我們要去判斷一個人是否忠誠竟然是以他有沒有涉戶籍來判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7710.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7723.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
李征秀委員當他取得中華民國的身份證的時候他就代表他已經放棄了那邊的國籍因為那邊的戶籍就已經放棄了在大陸地區的戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7724.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7746.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為這是兩岸有默契 當取得了台灣的戶籍 大陸那邊的戶籍他就自然放棄那麼同樣的我們台灣的同胞如果說是在大陸取得了戶籍我們這裡也是不承認啊 這邊可能就是除籍了所以這很清楚的事情 他什麼時候取得了身份證就什麼時候具有所謂的公民權 就具有參政權你有撤銷他的身份證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7750.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7762.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
沒有啊 他這個經過了選舉 當選 中選會也頒發給他當選公告我們現在立法院 我們沒有說不承認他作為一個立法委員的身份不管是從國際法 從兩岸關係條例裡面來講你們今天的說法都是錯誤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7772.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7786.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
你就是故意要搞族群的對立族群的撕裂這樣有意義嗎所以呢我認為說其實這個案子這個沒有必要因為時間的關係現在40分那個行政部門需要補劉部長你要補張請 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7787.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7808.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝院長給我補充的機會內政部是國籍法的主管機關當然國籍法是在立法院修正通過的這個我們都知道我們在主張各種不同主張的時候絕對不會做擴張式的解釋台灣的陸配跟台灣的陸配有沒有參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7809.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7831.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
或者是他有沒有具備可以擔任中華民國立法院委員是不一樣的今天我們當然是以李貞秀委員是不是具有立法委員的資格來做討論有一些委員所提的部分我想有四點來做一下解釋 越快越好第一個 按照憲法第三條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7832.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7852.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
具有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民那剛剛也有委員提到因為我們憲法徵修條文11條有講到兩岸人民關係條例那兩岸人民關係條例是在規範兩岸人民的往來而且如果有衍生法律事件的特別立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7853.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7878.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
但是兩岸條例裡面的第二條僅以涉戶籍地的定義來定義台灣人民跟中國大陸人民從兩岸條例八十一年九月十八日施行以來有一些機關在解釋的時候呢不管在認定中國大陸人民或是中華民國國民呢都有一些不同的權利義務上的解釋那我們也都知道從八十一年到現在我們已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7879.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7904.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
很多的這個變遷包括台灣有舉行過相當多的這個選舉或者是有七次的這個憲法變遷所以呢我們應該知道涉及台灣的國民資格認定是屬於重大的權利義務事項要用法律來明確規範不可以用這個行政命令那按照中央法規標準法的第五條第二款的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7904.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7927.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
關於人民的權利義務事項應該用法律來定之我想這個大家都沒有疑議因此呢有關這個兩岸人民關係條例沒有規範的部分也就是說有關國籍之取得或國民身份之認定因為兩岸條例並沒有規範應該適用我國其他有關法律來論斷不能用 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7930.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7949.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
韓式來代之這是我剛剛解釋的部分那再來民國89年國籍法的修法已經將定義國籍的用詞由中國人修正為中華民國國民那依照我國現有的相關法律規定舉凡應考試服工職 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7951.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7970.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
參政、納稅、服兵役、受國民教育、加入全民健保等等中國大陸人民不具中華民國國籍非屬中華民國國民自不享有或負擔中華民國國民的權利義務那這些部分呢都是行政院秘書長韓在112年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7973.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7997.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
根據所有兩岸人民關係條例或是中央法規標準法還有國籍法裡面的所作的解釋那同時也提到了這個兩岸條例從81年公佈施行迄今已經超過30年兩岸互不隸屬是兩岸現況和既存事實中國大陸人民與中華民國國民也是明顯有別以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8001.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8017.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
專委員再次發言 然後陳委員麻煩簡短一下好嗎 我要做宣告 請專委員請謝謝院長 我也再簡短啦齁那其實啊 那這個案子啊倒也不是說做出認定以後啊任何一個政黨會損失一席不會 我們現在是在資格大家再做一個論證 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8019.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8043.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
假設李委員這個被認定為說他不具備資格這一席還是你台灣民眾黨的這個第一個啊 今天做一個聲明那第二啊 剛剛國民黨的朋友就提到了你說啊 這個中華人民共和國跟我們中華民國同屬一國是兩區 這我尊重我相信中國跟中華民國會是一國這個在國民黨裡面我也不認為是一個共識所以我說我尊重但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8044.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8069.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我們台灣我們中華民國並不會因為你取得中華民國的戶籍就自然的另外一個國家的戶籍就會喪失不會不然兩岸人民關係條例第九條第一項根本就不需要去再次規定禁止雙重戶籍跟你講說六個月內應該繳交儲籍的一個證明不會啦不會說因為你在台灣已經有一個戶籍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8070.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8076.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以在其他國家的戶籍就自動的一個喪失不會啊 如果我們立法院頂這條兩岸人民關係條例九條之一要幹什麼 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8079.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8107.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我簡單補充我們都是依法論法內政部依法就是國籍法依的就國籍法那李正秀委員就是不適用國籍法就是很簡單的一個答案那李正秀委員應該要適用兩岸人民關係條例也就是我們陸委會的兩岸人民關係條例那這倒是互解的問題那李正秀委員他也 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8109.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8124.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
去到大陸去辦理這個戶籍的一個註銷那也經過我們海基會的驗證這個我剛剛已經說明了那李政協委員到現在他就是我們中華民國的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8126.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8146.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他的身份證也沒有被我們內政部註銷啊他的戶籍也沒有被我們內政部註銷啊他就是唯一具有中華民國國名你有中華民國國名身份證唯一設籍在中華民國台灣在這邊生活三十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8147.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8157.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那如何放棄中華人民共和國的國旗那我這邊也請教內政部能不能指導一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8158.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8179.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們的孫立芳將軍他1968年出生在中國大陸1982年來台灣現在是在我們國防部來任職請問他有沒有放棄中華人民共和國這國籍如果有他怎麼放棄能不能來指導我們告訴我們如何放棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8180.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8201.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
作法人民共和國的國籍,這不只是李正修委員,也包括所有在台灣居住的陸培同胞民進黨以為奧德就是人權利國,其實陸培也是我們生活在台灣,已是同仁,我們沒有任何差別待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8203.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8213.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這是今天他們的參政權在兩岸的民關係條例也有明確的一個定定大家就依法論法依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8216.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8236.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
來執行他已經完成了放棄戶籍的認證在這樣的過程當中我希望我們這樣的一個EVA取得中華民國立法委員的資格這樣的一個立法委員我們不應該在這裡在對他的資格有任何的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8237.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8263.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
莊惠 請其實我不想再講啦可是因為陳委員你講這個論述是不對的啦你知道嗎兩岸人民關係條例第一條裡面兩岸人民關係條例不是特別規定你去看兩岸人民關係條例的第一條的最後一段說本法所沒有規定的依其他相關法律的一個規定所以兩岸人民關係條例是一個補充的一個規定來照顧陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8264.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8269.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
誰嫁到台灣取得中華民國的國籍那當然就是中華民國的國民我們要照顧他 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8271.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8297.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
沒有問題可是參政權的規定任何一個國家都會做一定的一個規範你今天入籍美國你今天入籍英國入籍到其他的國家也不是說你入籍了以後你馬上取得參政權啊也會有時間上的一個安排啊那我們今天討論的就是說到底李委員他有沒有符合我們整個國籍法的規定或者說我們的整個戶籍法的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8301.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8324.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
至此取得以後如果沒有違背的話那還是溯及他這個身份還是會去取消以上我再次說明我倒不是在講說他這個人好跟壞我就不認識他嘛我們是在講說這樣的一個候選人裡面到底是不是符合我們現行法律的規範他當初在取得你台灣民眾黨在在推薦你這部分開會時主席有否合謀 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8327.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8331.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
怎麼會講到什麼民主進步黨我們台灣中華民國主張人權立國是啊各個政黨都是人權立國啊並不是他取得以後打壓台灣民眾黨你少了一席沒有我們在講說有沒有取得這個參政權的問題沒有任何打壓就算李委員他今天假設他 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8348.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8358.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
不具備立法委員的資格,也沒有人去跟你說他的國籍把它給取消什麼什麼,這個不是台灣人的媳婦沒有人會做這樣的一個主張啦,這曾經說,回去沒那麼大討論這個案件的時候,到純粹我們說就法論法,我們就把法律拿出來講我們有哪一點地方講得不對,你們也可以提出說我們講的是不對的,沒有關係好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8372.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8389.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
因為時間大家討論,謝謝各黨團干杯,謝謝今天列席的官員。我想我們也充分討論,但是沒有辦法達成共識啦。容許我做兩點的宣告。一,本次協商黨團既然沒有辦法達成共識,又有事實跟法律有待釐清之處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8390.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8407.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
在相關事實查明之前以及司法最終判決之前有鑒於李貞秀委員即完成就職宣誓其立法委員身份及職權行使應該予以尊重現在散會 |