| IVOD_ID |
17245 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17245 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026012950 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-29T15:00:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-29T16:13:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:12:20 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0d600d02e1221ac876d7649687346334ce692bdb9a1e47977b609b65e31e14a5d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-29T15:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、繼續研商「住宅法部分條文修正草案」等案。（國民黨黨團提議）二、繼續研商「政黨及其附隨組織不當取得財產處理條例第四條及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。（國民黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:00:40 - 16:13:00 |
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好 謝謝開會時間已到我們謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝內政部劉部長各位列席的官員各位工作夥伴我們今天繼續要協商住宅法修正案及黨產條例修正案本來昨天協商的時候針對第47條有請內政部跟黨團繼續溝通今天我們繼續從47條開始進行討論還是一樣回到這個討論的主要的劉許廷委員以及內政部劉部長現在介紹 |
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1790.596 |
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1815.878 |
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我做一個補充宣告1月27號黨團協商達成共識第10條不予修正維持現行條文第57條之一不予增訂另外介紹一下今天我們列席的各機關代表首先再次歡迎內政部劉部長法務部的謝參事好謝謝那我們請劉許廷委員發言內政部劉部長請準備好嗎我們要做準備做宣告請 |
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1817.284 |
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1830.332 |
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好謝謝主席我們昨天討論到第47條有關於租屋市場透明化的這樣子的一個實際上的一個執行方法那我們回去做了研究之後我們還是覺得應該要有單憑租金才能夠比較完整的反應這個租屋市場的一個狀況因為 |
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1833.314 |
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只有單位面積的租金才是有一個完全可比性的真實價格水準你如果只是用片面的總價來講因為有大有小嘛那它可能會常常變成說租金總價不變可是坪數其實縮水它其實就是反映租金的價格一個上漲嘛叫做隱形的租金通膨嘛那以目前這個內政部有提供沒有面積目前的資訊揭露來看比如說以新北市不分類物件租金50分位的價格就是中位數的價格它甚至高於台北市可是這就顯然與真實的狀況有所不符嘛 |
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台北市的租金應該是不至於比新北市來更加便宜所以我們當然是希望既然有這個修法的契機在這個指標要合理來做調整讓它用單憑租金的方式來處理那麼內政部執行起來當然會有一點點辛苦但是我們每一年花了好幾百億去做租金補貼去做包租代管 |
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1877.791 |
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1902.15 |
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我們希望這每一分公帑發揮出去的時候不只是照顧到租客也應該要有額外的政策效果既然我們都要花錢讓這些人去領補助讓這些人去享有更好的那個你就應該要刻意一定的義務也就是說在租賃的時候就要把更多的資料完整的來做填寫就可以解決說我沒有辦法去計算租賃面積的這樣的一個狀況我認為這個在技術上是完全可以克服的因此所以我們還是希望堅持按照本來的版本來做通過 以上 |
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1903.13 |
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1922.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好,謝謝劉許廷委員再一次的說明,我們接著請劉部長,部長說完我們就做決定謝謝院長跟各位黨團的委員,那個有關於這個47條的部分,我們還是會覺得說務實來看待第一個,就現行租金補貼的資料,一共有四成的租屋型態,就是分租套養房,也就是我們昨天所說的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1923.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1944.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
如果我們現在用美萍的單位的部分來影響它的租金補貼的話其實不具它的客觀性跟參考性而且房客也沒有辦法正確填練跟判斷房東也有這樣的狀況那並不是後端我們需要再做勾結的部分而是真正沒有辦法達到這個部分那如果一定要求這樣做了第一個我們並沒有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1945.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1964.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那沒有法則如果他說謊那我們也不曉得如何處理這一塊反而會影響到最後作為租金單價統計分析公佈的時候呢特關性跟參考性降低到非常多那再何況很多人引用說是歐洲的部分我們昨天已經講過了台灣因為有公社的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1965.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1979.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那公社怎麼樣納進去所謂的分租雅房裡面到底是有多少每坪單價的面積真的是非常不容易處理我還是一直講的我們都知道這個租金的部分如果能夠越透明化是越好但是它是要漸進的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1980.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2004.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
如果現在直接把它放到法令裡面來的話一定會造成未來在租金補貼或者是說在租屋市場上面確實會有非常大的一個混亂期而不是說只有陣痛過去就好也就是我們剛講到了屋齡建物型態公設筆裝修設備管服等等這些所以你如果用這樣的部分就來反映合理的市場的行情的話我覺得還是在務實層面上確實沒辦法達到以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2007.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2020.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝劉部長的再次說明因為從昨天下午到現在我們針對47條已經來說花了兩天的時間的討論各黨團也都表達了意見我想我們47條還是沒有辦法達成共識那我們就保留送院會進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2023.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2040.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我想非常感謝院長主持這樣的協商這麼慎重那其實這兩天下來包括年委員的一個的說明我們都覺得也各有各的幾分理啦其實呢政策就是要讓大家比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2041.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2067.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
讓大家去支持他認為最對的政策那是不是可以有這樣的請求雖然呢不能達成共識但是未來在處理的時候我想牛委員應該不反對如果說我們國中版本的這個描述方式比較切合我們諸大眾的需求而內政部的建議的條文他有他執行面上的考量那每個黨有他支持的一個內容而且各自對他支持的版本向社會負責那能否 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2067.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2089.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
能否真的是很誠懇的請求說有兩次的表決,兩個版本的表決這表決一定是我們的版本先表決,沒有過再換他們的版本不然本來就是這樣了,一向都是如此好的,沒有問題,平常就有自己的版本好嗎?好,那我們就送院會寶,謝謝我們進行第52條 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2093.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2110.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
討論 條文討論 劉許廷委員所提出來的修正動議麻煩請劉許廷委員發言一下 內政部請準備好嗎好 謝謝主席這一條其實在委員會的時候大概就已經有達成一個共識了但是應該是在最後確認文字的時候大概有一些疏漏啦把這個條文的關鍵的四個字不知道為什麼拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2110.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2139 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那拿掉之後在整個法條上唸起來是完全不通順的當初修正的目的是希望因為我們現在有花很多的資源在投入包租代管這個方向我們是完全支持內政部但問題是實務上這幾年的走向是大部分人都去申請了代管而不是包租但其實走包租比較容易建立這個穩定而且長遠的這個房源供應比較有助於這個合理的改善租市場的體質所以說我們希望透過修正這個法條讓包租的補助不低於代管的2.5倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2139.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2154.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我們當然希望就是說你政府我們是完全支持增加增變預算的也就是說在貸款的補助金額不變的情況下我增加對於包租的這個預算補助讓大家更有誘因去選擇包租讓包租的比例能夠至少要跟貸款切齊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2155.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2181.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
現在是壓倒性的代管比較多而包租不足夠當然還有很多的一些細節要來做調整比如說租罷的問題等等這個我們都非常樂意在後續來做調整我們也答應了相關的這個工會因為他們有表達一些擔憂我們在下個會期的時候我們來召開公聽會針對詳細的一個執行希望內政部可以擬出一個更好的辦法但前提是我認為增加對於包租的補助的誘因這件事情是可以做而且相對來講成本沒有那麼高衝擊也沒有那麼大的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2181.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2207.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
提出了修正動議 以上謝謝劉許廷委員發言特別跟民進黨團還有台灣民眾黨團報告一下因為這個案 這個第52條基本上已經差不多達成共識就少四個字叫不得掃魚所以劉委員發言各位兩位黨團要發言請隨時舉手我們請內政部來表達那個劉委員提一個新的修正動議不得掃魚是表示變成是下限欸太高了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2209.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2231.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那沒關係,民進黨團請表達意見沒問題,請這是天花板或是樓立板的問題嘛,這種選擇嘛所以這個最多就是2.5倍,你不要說不得少於2.5倍,往上,對你也上去啦看我們演繹不一樣,我們說明一下,對差很多那台灣民眾黨團要表達意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2233.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2257.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
張啟凱委員陳昭志委員需要表達意見嗎還是我們先聽內政部說明好請劉部長請因為這有一點不太一樣了是我知道謝謝院長本來我們在審查會通過條文的時候是2.5倍那本來內政部所提出的版本是2.5倍為原則但是現在那個劉許廷委員提到說不得少於2.5倍的話這等於是2.5倍是一個樓地板變成下線這樣反而往上修 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2258.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2265.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那跟大家報告一下我們所累積的10萬戶的這個有效契約數裡面包租的戶數是35%代管的戶數是65%這是我們累積出來這是實際上的正確的數字那如果你把它變成是2.5倍的話呢跟各位報告第一個呢我們本來在修繕的補助的時候如果他是弱勢戶本來就比較多一般戶比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2283.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2295.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
然後這些修正的補助是給房東那如果你原來這是我們1.25倍時候的做法那你如果跳增成2.5倍甚至更高的話那10年內呢它變成要增加100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2297.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2326.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們用這樣子的估算下去會變成增加100億那如果說各位覺得說未來再包租代管業者呢也可以解決我們現在所要推動的這個空餘物的問題的話我們也願意來協助但是變成是劉許題文委員講的說是不得少於2.5倍的話目前為止我們手頭上就沒有這個資料說要增加多少錢增加多少錢所以第一個是不是不要用不得少於因為這個部分確實跳增太大而且都是給房東的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2329.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2352.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
建議維持委員會的條文我唸一下委員會的條文給你們聽一下你們就知道我的意思了他說前項服務得由租屋服務事業辦理其認定及獎勵辦法由中央主管定制這沒有問題其中屬第19條一項六款陳出民間住宅並轉租及代為媒合管理物件之補助出租人總金額媒合陳出租雙方及代為管理物件2.5倍這個是不通順的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2354.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2377.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因為當初修正的版本就是不得少於2.5倍這樣才是通順的嘛所以你照委員會修正通過了反而很奇怪啊不管是在語句上面或者是法律的效果上面都會出現問題的我不知道為什麼當初當初大家講好其實在委員會的時候大家就已經講好是2.5倍不得少於2.5倍啊這個掉紀錄就可以知道啊通過的公式是這樣但我不知道為什麼最後長出來奇奇怪怪語句不通順的版本啦所以我是覺得還是要把它修回來才是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2379.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2385.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
跟院長跟各位報告一下,如果剛剛劉許廷委員講的部分就是倒數第二行,媒合、誠、出租、雙方等等這些前面加一個違其實就可以了,違 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2402.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2412.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
加一個微就可以了但是我們還是不太同意說現在把2.5倍當成不得少於2.5倍因為這樣真的是跳增太快跳增太快 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2444.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2471.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那個羅志強委員請發言其實我不想講數學問題你不得少於2.5倍那到底決定要不要高於2.5倍還是內政部決定啊但是如果把它定系在2.5倍那你是失去你的彈性可是如果內政部真的要做你不得少於你還是可以做2.5倍啊那不是一樣的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2472.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2480.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但是你還是保留一個往上的空間嘛但往上的空間財力的安全是內政部嘛所以我覺得這是數學問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2489.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2519.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是維持2.5倍 維2.5倍啊就是這樣嘛當初在委會也是這個意思嘛永遠在委會嘛那就要不然就保留吧還是我補充說明一下我們修這一條的核心用意就是要加大對包租的補助那這個東西我們之所以講說是一個下限就是我至少要做到這個程度如果我要發現不夠我要再加碼我給政府更大的空間也就是你要3倍4倍5倍都可以如果他可以這樣促進這樣的政策的平衡我覺得是好事但你今天如果是寫維2.5倍你就定死在那個地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2520.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2534.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以我們的寫法是包含的如果內政部真的執行起來有困難你就先從2.5倍開始如果一直都卡住或有狀況你就先維持但如果有突破值得加碼就可以馬上加碼不用再經過修法的程序嘛好不好所以不得少元還是比較好的啦好的 宗教編員請翻譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2535.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2563.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
在法律上如果你定為什麼什麼什麼的2.5倍行政機關就是以這個為準但你後面講的那些行政機關留有它的一個空間但是如果你寫不得少於那就一種義務其實我們把法律法律條文規定的是義務以外要增加的是行政職權但是你的不得少於在認知上跟為2.5倍我們要強調的是當時的本意我們無法追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2564.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2590.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
但是委員會送出的條文就是這樣子那如果真的有語句不通要符合原來委員會送的條文加個字就是為媒合曾出租雙方即待為管理物件還有再更嚴謹的知2.5倍如果真的是文句是這樣的話修辭是這樣子那就是2.5倍的意思委員會送的就是2.5倍現在故意把它講成不得少於2.5倍已經在法律上是必須是往這個以上來發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2591.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2595.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個在法律觀念上是不同的我們這裡不是講修辭這裡是不同的法律觀念好 麥玉珍委請發言 羅志強請準備好 謝謝主席我記得我們當時在討論的時候就是我們的民眾黨的條文是因為那個稅收還補助的我們就是說要三萬因為包租給他多一點優惠這樣子的話他們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2620.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2625.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
補助他們的稅這樣我們才會覺得說包租對我們的弱勢族群比較優惠因為那時候我們是邀著這樣所以我們的署長就是說他這個不要用這樣子的數據去補助才會改著說這是不少2.5倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2642.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2662.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是這樣子的後來去討論的同意是這樣子的但是所以我們現在這條又來再來這個拿出來討論我們就不知道是怎麼回事因為我們希望真的是讓更多人拿房子出來做包租不要敗寡因為我們收到很多就是平數的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2664.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2666.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
當是搬進來了你沒有身份證他要捐你渣錢你要設立戶籍他要給你渣錢所以我們就會避免這些才會說要求這個法以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2680.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2694.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我這樣講 其實它也不只數學問題 它也是法律問題我覺得法律很少把這個所謂的標準定到實時的為什麼 我舉個例子嘛今天 我今天舉個例子嘛照這個版本 2.5倍合法嘛2.51倍也合法 2.52倍也合法那誰決定 內政部決定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2700.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2728.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果內政部真的就是2.5倍一定要綁死他還是有選擇權啊可是問題你這個如果是你用2.5倍寫法那我就問一個問題嘛 法律問題啊2.49倍有沒有合法2.51倍有沒有合法對不對不是 我要這樣講就是說基本上給你選擇的空間嘛那你最後內政部不做還是一樣但是你保留一個往上的空間到底內政部在ㄍㄧㄥ什麼我是不太懂啦 不太懂啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2729.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2732.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
沒關係 我想各黨團內政府的意見大家都已經好 陳培議 水長請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2737.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2763.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
其實內政部在之前其實已經有講過如果你要這樣寫法其實會過度傾斜房東這真的是好事嗎剛剛麥玉珍委員說是為了照顧弱勢但是如果這個補助最後都是傾向房東這真的是你們國民黨跟民眾黨要的嗎所以剛剛羅志強問說為什麼內政部這麼堅持他就已經跟你們說過而且不是只有今天才說之前黨團協商的時候也說過然後在修法的委員會裡面也都說過了所以我相信委員們應該都非常清楚謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2766.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2771.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席不是不是要給我們知道就是為了讓房東拿房子出來租因為解決你們的那個那個十萬戶嘛解決十萬戶的社會住宅才會說用這個來去讓大家更多可以弱勢可以租房子所以才會說三項雙項的來去來去做所以我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2794.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2799.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
讓包租包租就是老闆才不會去看是誰租代管他們就會看說是誰所以很多家裡有老人的這個是說有小孩的很多代管都不給所以我們希望真正的照顧弱勢才會說給包租他們才會減稅所以才說補助他們多一點補助三萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2822.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2825.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以後來就說不要五株三萬要用這樣的倍數來比較好算還有我們的國稅級他們比較好作業所以我們已經同意了所以今天又拿出來討論我們不知道為什麼啦 是這樣我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2841.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2860.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第52條我想各黨團還有內政部都已經發言非常非常的多非常清楚了我想我們一樣我們沒辦法達成共識第52條我們還是要保留送院會進行處理 好吧 謝謝我們現在處理附帶決議 我們宣讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2863.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2886.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
附带决议建云住宅法第52条修正后政府将投入大量预算资源扩大包租市场其补贴总金额下限设定为贷款案件之2.5倍国家财政负担显著增加行政部门即应确保政策产出相应之公共效益以落实居住正义然过去实务经验显示即便有补贴若是租屋族人常因年龄身份遭房东货业者技术性排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2886.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2902.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
若政府透过高额补贴成租民间住宅转做社会住宅却无法解决挑房客之结构性问题将严重违反预算编列之正当性与合理性原请主管机关落实以下行政作为因内政部应重新检视并修正包租贷款相关奖励办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2902.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2927.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
确立高补贴邻歧视之政策原则针对参与包租方案之租屋服务事业对于符合资格之经济或社会弱势层租赁除法庭事由外不得以年龄身心障碍或其他社会身份特征为由拒绝出租而为了落实上述原则要求内政部应于相关执法或契约范本中明定包租业者落实不得挑选房客之具体义务主管机关应建立考核机制将弱势户媒合成功率 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2928.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2952.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
及拒绝安置率纳入租屋服务事业之评鉴指标对于无正当理由拒绝弱势房客之包租业者应订定删减补贴或退场机制以确保预算执行符合政策正当性三起内政部与本法修正通过后三个月内向立法院内政委员会提出具体执行方案及防弊机制之书面报告宣读完毕谢谢各位党团干部附带决议大家徐宇峥委员请发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2954.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2981.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
針對這個附帶決議主要是因為依照我們過去的實務經驗顯示即便有補助有補貼然後但是因為很長時間是因為年齡跟身份就遭到房東或業者技術性的排除所以有挑房客這樣的一個問題所以我們是希望內政部能夠有相關的執法或契約的範本中能夠明定的落實不要挑選房客讓我們這些弱勢的或是長者他們不會因為這樣而導致沒有辦法租到他們該 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2981.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2982.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
謝謝許政委們的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2986.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3012.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
內政部請表達意見好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝幾位委員所提到的附帶決議的部分當然是站在弱勢的立場來處理但是因為要我們來訂定執法協不得挑選房客或者是歧視的話這樣的定義比較模糊那在執行上就會出現困難就是難以界定跟舉證那也跟大家報告一下如果他是包租代管業者的時候因為他可以處理的房子戶數比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3014.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3029.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以我們可以總體的要求它符合我們住宅法裡面40%像現在我們包租代管業者裡面呢所提出來的已經有43%是屬於剛剛所明定的弱勢戶包括單親家庭或是身心障礙者但是如果你把它規範變成是每一戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3031.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3052.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
都有不得挑選房客或是有這個拒絕安置率的話就可能會漏掉說未來包租代管業者來協助我們住宅法40%的這個部分所以在文字上的修正第一個我們可不可以把它納入用延譯的方式讓我們知道說它是一整群的房屋而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3052.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3073.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
一棟房屋那一整群的房屋的好處就是說也許他A房租不到他可以租B房的方式這是一個那如果你沒有把它明定清楚的話呢確實沒有辦法一戶一戶就要求他再挑房客或者是這個零歧視這樣的原則可不可以修改一下然後因為我們還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3074.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3086.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在PALA具體義務再做清楚一下所以我們在本法修正通過以後三個月的時間是不是再給我們多三個月那我們把這個防弊的機制跟執行的方案提供書面報告給我們委員來參考 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3092.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3118.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
現在這樣內政部又提了一個版本現在已經到各位手上那現在提案的國民黨團針對劉部長的說明現在才出來內政部發的然後呢請國民黨團請補充意見好嗎我想依照剛剛內政部長劉部長的說法的話因為其實我們主要的就是希望不要挑選房客能夠落實這樣的一個這個機制那剛剛部長講說他們會先去研議那把三個月改成六個月這個部分我們可以同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3119.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3129.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
提到國民黨團同意內政部的一個建議好不好我們就改為演議那現在內政部版本已經可以可以可以請大家看一下好我現在本案現在已經有協商草稿請議事長發下 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3131.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3157.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
然後我在這裡來念一下各位我們達成的協商草稿協商主題延商住宅法部分條文修正草案協商結論一保留條文47條第52條送院會處理二協商通過條文第4條第18條如附件含立法說明三第10條不予修正維持現行條文四第57條之一不予徵定 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3160.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3166.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
5.甄列附帶決議一項如附件6. |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3166.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3170.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
其餘均照審查會審查結果通過7. |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3170.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3179.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本案院會進行處理時廣泛討論,各黨派推派一位發言,每位委員發言三分鐘足調討論時,各黨團均不再發言保留條文1. |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3179.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3182.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
各黨團版本提出先後進行處理,禮讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3184.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3195.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
民進黨團版本有限這就是剛剛柯總統所提的各位黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好那就拜託大家請簽字第五項附帶決議是照內政部的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3210.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3227.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
廖長不好意思我請教一下黃總統請那個第七點啊處理的時候廣泛討論各黨團推派一人發言每人發言三分鐘逐條討論都不發言保留條文依各黨盤提出先後進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3228.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3251.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那為什麼要先離讓民進黨團因為剛剛您不在我們講是兩個版本因為有一個不得少於25%是這樣的一個情況他完全沒有其他任何其他的想法一點都沒有就是民進黨團是先給他表決剛剛國民黨團台灣民眾黨團也都同意因為他並沒有任何衝突好可以好謝謝好請簽字謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3258.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3259.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
謝謝內政部劉部長 謝謝謝謝各位列席的官員 謝謝我們現在進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3270.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3292.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
接下來要討論的協商主題是國民黨團所提議協商的政黨及其附隨組織不當取得財產處理條例第4條及第34條條文修正草案本案於114年12月31號已由國民黨團羅志強召集委員協商因為協商並沒有達成共識因此於本次會議我們繼續進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3295.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3318.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
首先我要介紹各行政機關的列席代表我們介紹首先介紹不當黨產處理委員會的林主任委員歡迎您請坐司法院民事廳的林廳長歡迎您請坐法務部謝參事請坐內政部陳專務委員財政部羅保管組的羅副組長請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3324.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3336.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
教育部理副處長 歡迎請坐交通部觀光署曹組長 歡迎請坐國防部政治作戰局嚴克長 歡迎您 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3341.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3357.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我想為了有利於我們協商的進度麻煩各黨團直接針對第四條以及第三四條分別表達意見如果主管機關有補充的意見我們再行說明這樣的話會比較好我們有關本日協商會議我們依據結論如下我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3371.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3385.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我們現在政黨及其附隨組織不當取得財產處理條例第四條及第三四條條文修正草案重點我們請提案的劉浩委員請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3394.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3408.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
OK 謝謝謝謝院長 還有今天召開協商有關於檔案條例修正案第四條第三四條修法那之前有協商但是那時候沒有取得共識那今天謝謝院長再次召開那主要修正的部分是第四條跟第三四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3409.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3424.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那其實救護團一直都是大家心中所公認最好的一個公益團體之一那不僅是在防疫期間還擔任模範生的角色還記憶寫書防疫在救災甚至都扮演急先鋒但是卻被 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3425.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3453.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
列為這樣子不當條例不當條例之後被這樣子清算不僅是在人事財務上一切都受任何的限制啊那這樣其實是一個意識形態或是說是整個這個對於公益團體是非常大的傷害啊那所以說今天的這個修正條文確實是公益不能等啦那我也是希望說還救我團以及公益團體的公道所以在修正條文第四條的部分還在或以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3454.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3476.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
籍的部分那人事財務或業務任何一項還是修法重點的時候改成籍但是民共黨這邊其實有討論那其實這個貨跟籍的部分是沒有問題所以這個部分可以維持籍在修正條文中那另外修法重點排除國家增訂成隸屬於國家者不在此限那因為當判條例中立法目的是在處理政黨財產不應該混淆國家與政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3479.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3497.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那再來第三四條的部分是讓修正有益錯誤必須要也要做導正所以溯及基網的部分它的修法重點是在於它溯至本條例公佈實行日前適用還以理此來能夠讓重新本法能夠保障結社自由及財產權 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3499.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3526.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
還不僅希望就是民進黨的委員啊能夠一起來支持還舊國團及公益團體公道因為今天的直播我相信許多舊國團的夥伴跟社會許多上公益團體對那謝謝那也希望鍾嘉賓委員是舊國團的屏東的副主委啊那所以說其實今天的角色其實特別是要麻煩您還可以讓大家一起來支持舊國團這個公益團體的公道謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3528.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3540.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 謝謝提案的我們黨團 國民黨團的尤浩委員的發言民進黨團請發言 台灣民眾黨團請準備謝謝主席衝著尤浩委員這兩晚的點名 我就要告訴尤浩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3541.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3568.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
不要糟蹋曾經或現在加入救國團從事公益的人不要糟蹋這些人這些人不是國民黨的財產這些人做的公益奉獻他們的青春所做的不管是教育、旅遊都是為著他們崇高的理想他們不是為了國民黨這個組織我們來看一看在這些人加入救國團或者說中國青年反共救國團之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3569.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3596.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
本團的工作我念一下余浩偉你曾經加入過你要看一下中國青年反共救國團在社會為國防部所屬單位之一在黨內為本黨最重要清運機構今後中國青年反共救國團對重要工作之策劃與執行均應先行呈報中央接受黨的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3598.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3611.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
即以增進清運工作之效果中華民國46年8月7日我們現在不要混淆我們現在討論的不是現在不管他是70歲80歲還是現在20幾歲仍然在參與各地 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3616.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3627.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
救國團這些工作的熱血青年或中年或老年我們講的是在民國46年的時候這個曾經隸屬於中國國民黨的護水組織因著當時中國國民黨是一個威權統治的國家機關他不當地將國家的資產交給救國團來使用今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3638.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3655.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
千萬不要把這些參與過救國團的人所做的公益用來掩護用來漂白國民黨附隨組織這樣一個歷史事實這不是你油耗委員一句話拿全體曾經參加過救國團工作的人就可以抹煞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3656.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3679.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
本人也參加過救國團過去半年的青年工作我們參加水上救生我們沒有再問他是不是中國國民黨的覆水組織我們出生的比較晚我們在民國五十年後才出生民國四十六年中國國民黨要求中國青年反國救團做的事情在歷史文件上他們侵奪的財產還掛在他的帳下 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3682.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3688.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個不是能抹煞的你不要以為你在江湖中你金盆洗手你過去的不義之財就可以不用歸還人家說 喜還喜 黑還黑 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3693.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3722.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
現在做公益的人不能成為國民黨的遮羞布啊把這些人的青春跟熱情拿來掩飾國民黨的不當的黨產這是最不要臉的事情還有臉去講救國團的人在做公益是這些人在做公益不是你救國團在做公益搞清楚民國40年46年寫在這裡尤華委員你要點我名一次我就講給所有跟我一樣為救國團打拚的人讓他們知道是你們在糟蹋人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3723.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3723.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
蕭平兄 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3727.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3732.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
今天談救國團,氣力不要太大救國團是很多人甜蜜回憶跟公義的總和 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3755.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3777.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
很多人從學生時代就參加救護團的活動文藝營、戰鬥營非常多的活動很多參加朋友到現在都是一輩子的朋友而且他做了非常多的公益我印象很深刻在疫情期間救護團率先站出來把青年健談活動中心作為防疫旅館 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3778.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3802.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
還有去年丹納斯風災的時候還有花蓮這個災情他們都跟鏟子超人在那邊一起在一起在救災所以今天大家火氣不用太大我們從歷史的這個歷史角度來看看這個救火團真正的這個狀況救火團是在民國41年由行政院來籌組的那時候是隸屬在國防部它是依法成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3803.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3830.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
準行政機關不是任何單位的附隨組織他是不符合黨產條例裡面的不當黨產到了民國58年跟78年的時候他變成了公益社團組織78年以後他成為我們中華民國第一個社團法人社團法人可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3832.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3852.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
不當黨產委員會竟是把它列為不當黨產他這念完之後他的資產已經全部被凍結了他狹下所有的業務活動跟動資全部都要提一詳細的說明喔連公益的這個募款這個募款還有幫助這個弱勢團體甚至叫活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3854.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3870.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
執行前都必須送不讓黨產委員會去同意這樣一個運作對台灣的公益推動是好的嗎是好的嗎所以台灣民眾黨贊成這次的修法我們主張第四條明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3872.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3889.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
護水組織這一部分曾經隸屬於國家者不再此現我剛講得非常清楚當初41年成立的時候救國團是屬於隸屬於國防部另外34條我們主張本條例之修正條文追溯到 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3891.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3899.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個條例公布實施的那一天開始也就是民國105年的8月10日開始這是台灣民眾黨明確的主張 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3904.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3931.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
謝謝院長其實我們協商過以下所表達的其實之前也都表達過再說一次救護團在41年的時候成立它的成立是中國國民黨的中常會的前身中改會所決定的交由行政院去籌辦但是並沒有任何的立法所以剛剛講依法成立救護團這是一個錯誤的事情這個本會已經經過詳細的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3933.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3950.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
提出非常清楚的證據剛才包括鍾嘉斌委員講的那些過程其實我們都提出了相關的檔案都不是我們一個人說了算如果有任何哪一位委員可以找到說救援的成立過程有立法的話也歡迎提供給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3951.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3970.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
再來是說舊國團是不是公益團體當然可能這個有委員一直主張它是公益團體但是縱然是公益團體也不妨礙它成為一個政黨的覆水組織政黨的覆水組織也是可以做公益這個邏輯上沒有互斥啦所以並不能用說它是公益團體它就不是政黨的覆水組織再進一步講 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3974.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3993.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
公益性的團體也不妨礙他以前在黨國威權時代從國家不當取得財產我們今天黨長會經過非常長時間的調查做了處分其實在講一件事情就是在黨國威權時代的時候救國團有拿走國家的財物現在還沒有交回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3994.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4017.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我指的是這個部分,並不是指他現在的經營他現在的經營其實跟以前的某個程度有一點區分了但是我們的處分,目前處分,要求救護人員繳回來的都是當時在威權時期從國家取得的財產這個具體的證據跟事實全部在我們的處分書裡面這是非常清楚的事情,我想不要把它混在一起談 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4018.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4040.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
舊團現在要去經營活動中心、運動中心去經營各地的團委會的補習班如果它可以合法經營,我們都樂觀其成包括我們現在許可的過程裡面如果有這方面的申請,我們都會重塑、加快而且很快都讓它過了這個許可的業務到目前為止,我們都很順暢只有少數的我們認為有疑慮的才會把它剝掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4042.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4065.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
接下來我要講的是說舊國團一直主張現在是公益團體但是他的特權難道已經過去了嗎沒有耶在2016年的時候台北市政府是民眾黨的前主席柯文哲市長跟舊國團成立一個約定舊國團因為自知理虧因為當初建台青年活動中心那個建物啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4067.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4091.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
蓋的錢是國家的預算所以舊國團跟當時的台北市政府成立一個贈餘契約還用的是贈餘 但台北市政府也吞下去把要求在8年的時間在經營8年 然後他要把建物交還給台北市政府這個8年時間的最後一天是2024年的12月31號也就是一年一個月以前結果到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4093.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4107.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
2024年12月31號對 最後一天救護團把登記 建屋的登記移轉給台北市政府但是他到現在為止已經過了一年一個月沒有點交救護團沒有搬出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4108.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4121.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
換句話講舊國團賴皮違約那台北市政府在本來約定的12月31號2024 12月31號點交之後的20天才跟舊國團開了一個會說因為這個要準備以後這個地上的經營這個建台經營合作中心收回來之後經營還要花一點時間規劃所以讓舊國團暫時在那邊使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4134.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4160.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個暫時又過了一年一個月所以舊國團的特權大家以為他過去了嗎?沒有舊國團的特權還是現在進行式這個是我今天來這邊雖然對外一再說但是我有這兩個提醒第一個舊國團離開國家的管制的時候他並沒有把他的不當取得財產交回來這個我們用我們的處分他現在已經在都到法院去了第二個是舊國團的特權並沒有過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4162.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4187.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
他仍然占用了這個建壇金融中心而且他是自己同意要把這個建物交回來而且給他八年的通融他還是不交回來以上好 謝謝林主委的說明我想三個黨團加上林主委的說明顯然我們沒有辦法達成共識那我現在做以下的宣告我們有兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4189.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4217.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們兩個結論一保留條文第四條第三四條我們就保留二本案院會處理的時候我們廣泛討論呢由各黨團推派一位代表每位委員發言三分鐘逐條討論時我們均不再發言保留條文一各黨團版本提出先後順序進行處理我們現在我們沒辦法達成共識送院會好嗎那請大家簽字好在簽字的時候呢順便我 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4231.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4245.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
三讀之後各黨團推派一位代表我們請,好嗎?我再補進去,用口頭,好,謝謝好,那個現在跟各黨團幹部,大家在簽字的時候跟大家報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4247.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4274.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
國民黨團現在送件針對本院委員劉許廷等35位凝聚立法院組織法第32條、33條及35條條文修正草案呼籲盡快召集朝野協商這是剛才才送的我要徵求各位黨團幹部的同意同意我們就進行審理如果不同意那我們就今天朝野協商就到此為止我們就沒辦法進行處理了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4276.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4285.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那麻煩請各位簽字完簽字完我們就完成今天所有的草野協商手續好嗎好謝謝我們列席的林主委各位列席的官員謝謝大家也謝謝各黨團幹部我們散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4324.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4326.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好好問你們的自肥法案好好去公佈說話 |