| IVOD_ID |
17225 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17225 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-26T13:00:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-26T15:25:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:24:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea94b21ee1cfbfcecf446828380d374e7de692bdb9a1e47977dac3a5a59454e47d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-26T13:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會「不在籍投票立法」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會「不在籍投票立法」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:00:14 - 15:25:00 |
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1893.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
各位我們所有來參加的貴賓還有歡迎來參加本次公聽會我們這次公聽會的目的就是說我們實施不在己投票是否有造成權勿混亂的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1894.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1916.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
如何確保選舉公平 祕密投票與結果可受信賴並避免境外敵對勢力不但干預這是很重要的在者不在席投票是否應採漸進式投票或一步到位全面實施何種層級投票適合採行不在席投票都必須考慮清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1917.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1944.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
另外考量選務可行性不在即投票info有合理準備期等等的議題我們特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見那我們會相時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為修法討論時的參考所以我們首先先介紹專家學者出席委員及機關代表那我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1947.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1974.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們先介紹我們的所有的專家學者這個是來的先後順序我們依照來的先後順序第一位是楊志傑教授歡迎 謝謝第二個是蔣桂美教授第三個是羅承宗教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1977.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2001.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第四位是黃仁俊教授再來是黃承翰研究員再來是吳景清教授兼主任再來是廖藝明教授我們在場委員有鍾嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2005.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2030.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
蔓玉珍委員我們列席的政府官員有我們中選會選務處王處長內政部民政司政司長其他的我們就不再一一介紹了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2033.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2055.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 那我們今天公聽會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言依出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間為8分鐘本院委員要發言的請自主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2057.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2066.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明發言台前 政協方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束則按鈴兩聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2074.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2094.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那我們現在請部會報告我先徵求一下我們今天我們地方選委會因為是辦選舉的我們有台北市選委會高雄市選委會新竹市選委會的總幹事都有出席我想請問一下三位是要都各自報告還是推派一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2103.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2109.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你替他回答我想說他們都沒有講話好來那我們先請王處長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2122.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2140.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那今天貴委員會召開不在籍投票立法公聽會本會應邀列席報告深感榮幸那本會的意見詳如書面報告那僅簡要說明如下那第一個討論的提綱實施不在籍投票如何避免與選務混亂確保選舉公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2143.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2172.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
秘密投票與結果可受信賴並避免境外敵對勢力不當的干預那本會的意見是不在籍投票的實施需於選務層面具有可行性不影響選舉罷免及公民投票的公正性選民對投票結果公正性之信賴等情形下方可採行據而全面實施公職人員選舉不在籍投票對於現行選制的安定性社會信任選民投票習慣選務作業可行性及選務量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2173.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2196.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
負載等衝擊過大需審慎的考量那討論的提綱二是其他國家實施不在籍投票的方式那有移轉投票特色投票所投票提前投票代理投票通訊投票境外投票電子投票等是否適合我國採用那本會的意見是各民主國家的實施經驗那不在籍投票是依據各該國家國情 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2196.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2219.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那大致可分為剛剛以上所述的各種投票的方式那有關我國不在籍投票的方式那因為移轉投票叫其他的不在籍投票方式叫為國人所接受那但是以我國現行由夾式縣市選舉委員會在投票日前印製選舉票那在投票日採行投開票合一的開票方式在非單一選舉區的選舉採行移轉投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2222.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2241.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
各直轄市縣市選舉委員會需處理來自其他不同選舉區移轉投票的選舉票將大幅增加投開票實務作業的難度那至於其他種類的不再投票的方式對我國不宜採行的理由那請參閱本會書面資料第二頁的說明三跟四那不再贅述 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2242.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2257.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那討論提綱三是不在即投票應否採行漸進方法實施進一步到位全面實施何種層級的公民投票案選舉或罷免適合採行不在即投票那本會的意見是全面實施不在即投票具有極大的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2258.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2274.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那因為總統副總統選舉的立法委員選舉是合併舉行投票那立法委員選舉因為選舉區數目眾多除了73個單一選舉區之外上有平地原住民 山地原住民兩個原住民選區以及全國部分居集僑居國外國民選舉的選舉票計有76種選舉票 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2277.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2297.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那至於地方九合一選舉那選舉種類及選舉數目的繁多以115年選舉票預估會有8896種那實施移轉投票的選務極為複雜難度與不可控的風險都更高那有關罷免跟地方公職人員的罷免案 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2298.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2313.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那因為是在個別的選舉區或在個別指壓式縣市舉行那如果實施不在籍投票那上去在其他的指壓式縣市設計投票所那形容全國舉行罷免的投票那執行將有困難而且如果投票所的不在籍投票人數較少時在 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2316.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2327.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
維護投票秘密上會有問題那至於實施不在投票所涉及的選務實施的實務作業大概會有不在投票申請的作業涉及選舉人名冊跨縣市的異動 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2328.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2355.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那第二個是投開票所的設置在大都會區必須增設投票所在時間的充裕跟場地上都會有一些挑戰第三點是投開票的作業立法委員選舉有76種選舉票地方公主人選舉有近9000種選舉票那在同一個投票所內辦理大量不同的選舉票投票那可能會因為選舉票的外觀近似發票作業可能發生錯誤那開票如何進行以及投開票報告表如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2356.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2373.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
填照等都是會有問題的那第四點是選務工作人員的招募會非常的困難第五點是投票通知單集選舉公報的分送必須配合來調整那會耗費大量的人力時間及經費第六點是選舉票的印製分發運送交換跟保管那都會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2375.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2386.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那有關於這個是否應該循序漸進那本會的意見是建議循序漸進先推動公投不在籍投票再逐步推動選舉的不在籍投票那在討論提綱四 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2388.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2414.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
誰可以實施不在籍投票應否限制實施申請不在籍投票者的身份那本會的建議是申請資格不宜設定條件那討論提綱五是考量選務可行性不在籍投票應否有合理的準備期若立法明定公佈日期施行是否可行那本會的意見是為其不在籍投票制度運行順暢不在籍投票的推動應有合理的準備期並辦理各項籌備作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2415.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2430.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那這些籌備作業包括了訂定相關選務補充規定及配套措施那第二個是要建置相關的電子申請系統那第三個是要訂定相關的宣導計畫逼選民了解這個新的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2430.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2455.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那考量不再以投票的相關法律經完成立法程序後仍有相關配套作業必須規劃執行那並考量選務作業的複雜性應該預留合理的準備期那如果是在立法明定公佈日來施行等準備的期間不足在實務運作上有導致選務作業混亂之餘那討論提綱六是為便利投票從以便利投票角度出發 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2457.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2473.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
應否優先改善在籍者投票的問題那如何改善目前在籍者無法投票或投票不便的問題那中選會的意見是現行在籍者投票的規劃已經完善那例如說我們現在是落實一村里至少一個投票所的設置原則來確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2474.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2503.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
民眾能夠就近行使投票權那又介於我國的交通網路便捷選舉投票日依法為應放假之日配合高密度的投票所設置以便利民眾放假返鄉投票已經大幅降低民眾往返投票的時間成本那還有考量到選務安定性的前提下以維持現行戶籍地投票制度鼓勵民眾返鄉行使投票權利那第二點是在籍者投票仍有其優先性以及必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2504.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2522.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為我國現行採行的是所謂的投開票合一的制度那它具有下列的優點第一個是確保投票祕密第二個是有效維護選舉程序的公正第三個是高度的社會信賴感那如果採行不再投票如何維護現有制度的優點又不影響現行選務實務的作業仍需審慎考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2525.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2544.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那第七提綱七是對於其他不在投票的立法建議那本會仍然是建議先推動不在即公投的不在投票再推動選舉的不在投票那以上說明敬請各位委員及選者專家指教謝謝好謝謝那我們繼續請台北市選委會蔡總幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2551.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2567.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進我這邊報告一下其實剛剛我們處長已經針對我們一些實務上都說了一個大綱那我們先就實務進行可能要請各位先進在提高視野上在不同的視野上幫我們地方能夠想想能夠解決一下怎麼樣我們現在面臨的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2568.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2591.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
因為講真的其實在地方的話大概就會遇到大致就分為兩個問題一個是地點一個是人的問題那其實不用到移轉投票其實他們現在像我們找投開票所還有選策的非常吃重的工作都在地方區公所跟戶政事務所那大家可能很難想像他們大概從選前的這一年差不多從1月開始就已經在洽介地方的各個的投開票所 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2592.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2617.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那因為我們現在投開票所提供其實在法令上並沒有特別鼓勵的誘因也沒有所謂的強制性所以講真的他們都必須一間一間去拜託然後拜託宮廟拜託學校拜託地方的私宅那私宅有時候尤其在都會區講真的一旦都市更新或是他們有涉及隱私大家也知道是說在都會區對於隱私是比較在乎他也不太願意去呈現他的想法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2618.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2627.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那私宅更難以外借好那再來就是說所以一旦有移轉投票狀況我們初估還只是預估因為我們不知道實際上會怎麼產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2628.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2656.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那可能光投開票所我們就得增加兩到三倍那大家可以想像在台北市要找到兩到三倍是有多麼困難然後第二個就是人力的問題那自然因為你一旦開放移轉團其實現行在他們投開票所工作人員除了三分之二都是一般的民眾那他其實雖然選前有訓練但是其實他對一些行政事務總是沒有那麼的熟人那很多也都是管理員他們平常有 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2657.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2682.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
往來啊交替熟悉的人拜託他們來的那是一旦投開票所增加勢必工人要增加那他們是不是意願有這麼高有這麼多人有意願來參加的投開票所的工作因為就往例的經驗就地方人士經驗其實他們也會找人也非常的困難好那如果說一旦擴張到移轉投票的時候我們也擔心因為可以想像那個投開票所的票種非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2683.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2704.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
選策也非常多那一般民用在光領票的狀況下我們一般的工作人可能就會面臨很混亂無法辨識或者是該怎麼樣讓這個動線加快那領票也慢投票可能也會慢那當然到開票的時候那更是可以想像中必須要很小心謹慎因為我們希望說開票也能夠正確嘛尤其在里長票的話常常 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2706.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2735.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
票數差距非常少就會影響決定輸贏所以我們是說希望說如果說有在這樣考量要不在就可能針對我們這些人跟地還有一些行政程序能夠予以協助還有像我們一般行政的話當然行政有些細節我這邊不贅述可是光我們票所我們票比如說選票上如何印製或是印製完如何交換到他移轉投票的地點因為這個都是非常重要的如何可能都 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2735.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2758.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
必須跨區支援或者是有警務必須能夠從南部到北部怎麼樣送票那如何能夠讓票那個順利到每個投開票所這很多很多細節都必須考量那還有當然還有一些招標問題那我這邊就不贅述那所以大概就是人地還有行政程序真的請各位學友幫我們地方的第一線的工作人員能多多考量以上報告謝謝好謝謝那我們繼續請高雄市選委會李錫斌副總幹事報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2778.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2802.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
對不起 主席還有大院委員以及各位專家寫者與會的來賓大家午安那就在我們地方選委會我們其實是以我們選舉實務上的來各位做一些提出來一些報告因為現在尤其地方選舉很多選委會它的基層的比如說村里長跟代表甚至就包括鄉鎮市或者原住民區的區長 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2804.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2828.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們所有的作業大概都在公所來處理比如說我們的里長選票那我們全國包括代表總共剛剛我們的處長也提過有八千多種那這八千多種大概由地方的公所或者選務作業中心來印製那這印製過程完了之後要把這八千多種在全國實施交換這想一想是多大的一個工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2829.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2855.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
尤其要交換到不同的指定投票所那這些投票所每一張每個投票可能只有一張或者兩張那這交換過程當中萬一發生的狀況到達最後那產生一些選務上不必要的困擾的話以後選民到達之後可能會發生一些狀況那另外有關於洩漏投票秘密的那一般我們最近大概都有談到原住民的投票秘密那如果我們以後實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2856.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2880.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所謂的全國的不在籍的一個投票那可能某一個投票所的某一種類的選票他可能只有一張那這一張一開出來那很明顯的投票明明就無法來保障那另外投開票所多久以前要設置我們剛剛台北市大概也講尤其在投開票所設置的時候跟選舉人數是有相當的關係以目前我們中選的規劃每個投票所大概會在1200到1500個選舉人左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2883.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2909.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那如果我們到時候在受理的時候我們已經是不是要先設定好投票所如果先設定好投票所到時候這個投票所裡面來受理來申請不再去投票的人很多那你勢必又要再分成兩個投票所這個閒後的時間差到底要多久以前要先決定投票所或者先來決定選舉人數這也是一個問題那另外選舉人策要如何來編造 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2910.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2928.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為有關於選舉人名冊的編造 核對還有遣發法規定整個可能都要通盤的要整個要來做的修正我們目前的規定是投票日前20天是我們選舉的一個基準日 造冊基準日 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2928.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2954.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那現在如果按照我們剛剛實施不再去投票那整個投票基準日前的造冊時間到底要往前拉多久這個也是一個問題另外到時候在申請的時候比如說以我們歷年的總統大選我們有個叫做反國行使總統副總統選舉權的一個投票那個受理期間以前幾列來講大概都有八十幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2955.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2982.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那如果這八十幾天幾乎在像第113年的總統選舉我們是大概從9月一直登記到11月那如果以後不再去投票那我們給開放給民眾來申請不再去投票到底要日數要多久如果也相當那我們的選舉公告包括整個往前要提高提前多久這個也是一個考慮包括獲選人登記抽籤選舉票的印製等等那再者 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2983.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3011.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
目前其實我們有一個不在意投票只有選不好規定的投靠票所工作人員的工作地投票不過那個是以同一縣市而且他要同一選舉區為限所以當然同一個選舉區為限他的選票就是一樣的所以我們只有實施這一個就算實施這一個工作人員的工作地投票我們在地方上來講整個的公所的受理那只有投票所工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3012.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3017.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
工作的受理完了之後再把名冊再交給我們的戶政事務所 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3018.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3043.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
以高雄市來講我們的副鎮事務所會有早一天全部來統一交換因為你如果有時間差搞不好這個人的投票錢就會不見了這個就姿勢體大所以在那裡投票所工作人員的這個工作力投票就已經相當的困難那另外呢 省府整個騎乘拉長所以我們整個的省府作業中心到底多久以前要成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3044.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3061.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個也是一個問題以我們目前來講大概就是前三到三個月左右會成立期選務作業中心那如果這樣子一受理那整個選務期限可能會拉很長再來剛剛也有先進提過就是投票所工作人員的原本的林派的願望就不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3062.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3087.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
原本參加的人員 我們的參加公教人員的參加意願又越來越低尤其在地方選舉的時候 幾乎我們都找不太到人就算我們的 我們的津貼在增加說實在話 有時候我們時常在講說我們在怎麼增加 你也比不上監考老師監考老師一次不管大考國考 可能兩到三天每天兩三千塊 加起來就五六千 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3088.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3113.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
可是你在辦選舉的時候從早上六點多你就必須要起床忙到晚可能要晚上將近十點十二點尤其比較大的投票所時間會拉很長這個拉很長根本他們願不足而且呢責任又相當的重大萬一有問題以後要跑上法院還有呢地方選舉我們剛剛有提過大概有八九千種類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3115.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3142.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
選舉票 好 那我們一般投開票15我們入口會有一個身份證查驗員這個時候我們該如何來查驗他的身份證萬一他跑錯票所 到達我們投票處再發現他又不是這個投票所的選舉人那到時候又會出了很多狀況因為我們既然如果有做到全國不在即投票到時候投票通知單可能也來不及分發到每一個人的手上包括選舉公報也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3144.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3172.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
另外不同縣市的辦理不再去投票因為剛所說的投票秘密來你執行我曾經大概有這幾天大概有稍微想過如果有一個里他大概只有三四百票或者這個里長這個里他的競爭非常的激烈樹英可能在五十票甚至十票以內的話他是不是可以運用這個不再去投票找他的某一些人到 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3173.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3197.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
別個投票所去申請不再去投票到時候開出來很清楚他是不是投給我所以這個也有可能造成買票可能又會申請我們剛剛所說的大概只是稍微因為時間的關係我們只能夠列為的一個概述所以如果茂然實行說實在將有更多不可意見的問題應該會發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3199.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3225.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以勢必要我們整個選罷法包括選務的期程整個我們就必須要重新來設定所以我們也建議現階段實在不於貿然的來實施甚至有相當的困難我剛剛講是不是從全國性的一種全國性同一種類的選票我們先來試行看看好 以上報告好 謝謝那我們繼續請我們新竹縣選委會李美玲副總幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3231.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3247.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主席然後各位委員還有各位先生女士大家好就是有關不在籍投票的部分那就是回歸到我們憲法的用意就是憲法17條人民就是有選舉罷免創制複竭權那我們憲法的129條選舉台灣的選舉是以普通 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3250.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3256.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
然後平等直接還有無記名方式就是我們的秘密投票來做相關的選舉那我們的選舉的130條規定20歲是有選舉權那針對這個不在籍投票的話針對這個困難度的部分我想說我們處長還有兩位先進我們選委會的那個台北跟高雄市的副總統報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3271.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3290.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那針對說我的補充規定我的補充的內容是就是我們法律的部分我們就是公務員必須要依法行政那目前的選罷法就是以下一次的115年的地方公職人選舉的話經費的編列如果是地方型選舉是由縣市政府來編列如果是總統跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3291.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3319.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
立法委員的選舉的話是由我們中選會就是中選會來編列事實上我們在1月21號我們的中選會的長官也非常重視下一次選舉所以已經召開了第二次選條會也因應我們的那個公投法第23條我們在這個去年就是有做修正以前就是選舉跟公投分開那這一次選舉跟公投的話要合併也就是公投成立的三道 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3320.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3334.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
三到六個月如果碰到全國性的選舉的時候要合併所以我們現在針對1200個投開選舉人數一個投開票所增加到只要超過1200個必須要設投開票所那我該說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3336.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3350.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
因應法律的規定我們這次的選舉經費是編在縣市那我們新竹縣上一次是462個想說上次罷免那個我們才辦完所以呢不到一年時間所以我們的經費是編列10個投開票所也就是說該我們中選會的長官還有兩位先進所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3356.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3373.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
如果在不在期投票的話無論好針對我們的投開票所的選舉人數只要他現在的目前的法令只要是戶籍才是他的投票所可是現在只要是工作地或者是上班地所他可以都可以申請我們的那個我們相關在這邊投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3374.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3390.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那像新竹縣來講 我們就是竹科就是我們的 竹科就是我們的 我們最大的票倉嘛所以他們勢必就可以湧入很多 在我們新竹投票我們是不怕困難 是怕的是危機 還有混亂以新竹縣107年十大公投案 還有我們的五合一選舉我們開票是到12點多 然後真正報表印出來分送報表五份之後 是到淩晨3點 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3401.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3426.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那當天我們新竹縣的做法是選舉過後馬上就要整理因為未來向五合一選舉 剛才我們先進高雄縣選委會的副總所講的里長選舉 那個都是差一兩票所以我們會未來因應的 未來的訴訟方式把有效票 法院要檢視的票 還有選舉的名冊都把它整理出來公所送票的方式也會因應法院的送票 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3426.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3449.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以我們當天我們選務工作人員我們選委會只有8個工作人員編制那就是編制那我們其實每次選舉新竹縣大概動用6000位投開票所462個其實就是現在講的說我們投開票所的設置依照法律依照經費即使公投案成立的話中選會會編列相關的經費給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3452.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3468.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
可是我們以前我們目前所做的程序表是8月底要公告我們的投開票所的地點表也就是投開票所地點表公布之後我們招募比如說我們要尊重招募人的意願所以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3469.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3485.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
但因為在前年也修法了就是我們的公教之前是二分之一降成三分之一所以在新竹縣來講我們招募真的是我們超級半體超級業務員的業務也就是真的求爺爺告奶奶然後如果這個不再急投票的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3486.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3501.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
就是五合一加如果有公投案兩案三案就是開票已經到非常晚了如果這個不再急投票到底要設多少個投開票所如果投開票所在我們的目前公投是確定的話就是8月底以前都是可以成案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3502.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3515.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那如果這個不再急投票又再進來的話我們投開票所到底什麼時候可以確定我們招募是確實很困難在於說我們新竹縣就是科技大縣所以我們的老師很多就是台積電聯發科的太太 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3517.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3529.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
如果這個還有涉及到經費該講說五合一選舉是地方編列又沒有編列公副排代公副排代的意思就是說如果給老師兩天假如果不能讓他請代課終點費老師是要代班的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3532.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3553.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
是沒有意義的所以老師根本就是不想當選務工作人如果這個不再集投票我們剛才講說半夜3點才開票結束12點多他們又不能補假讓他功夫排代老師擔任的意願真的是非常好就是沒有辦法這樣子所以我講的意思就是說我們如果開票不能當天 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3554.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3578.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
應該上一次107年我當一組組長的時候就開到三點才能回家這個如果說學校借債乾我們前進先輩也講說我們借投開票手非常不容易第二天孩子要上課老師要上班我們拜託我們的用自己的親朋好友我們當起業務員第二天人家也要上課人家也要去上班我們開票不能結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3579.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3605.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個回歸到台灣的我們台灣最珍貴的就是憲法保障的我們的民主制度那民主制度就是大家有信任基礎我們選務就是民主制度最扎實最基礎的張張建票開票我們台灣就是開票跟投票是合一所以雖然我們也知道說移轉的不再集投票的方法非常多那我們現在黨團還是採取我們的移轉投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3605.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3614.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那一轉投票我真的很擔心我們第二天票開不完我們藉著投開票所怎麼辦就是真的是會整個把整個從我們現在我們那個動員開亂截止到我們現在實施的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3620.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3648.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
台灣自此之後的是不是會破壞我們選務的混亂終於我們在前主委李靖勇主委終於把我們的中選會的招牌就是之前台灣的信任基礎就是說我們是不是做票當初我們台北市的時候投票跟開票同時做同時一起因為4點就是要開票了所以人家那個訴訟我想說也打了非常久所以這個部分不是不贊成而是要考慮非常因素所以還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3648.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3677.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
比採取漸進投票該我們處長就是該講的這也涉及到選舉區選舉區如果五合一選舉有八八九六個投開票所我們主委之前也有在我們立法院也有報告如果這樣子貼一個投開票所最好的投開票所就是在學校學校的面積現在可能像高中新竹縣的六家高中可能有20坪以上可是一般傳統現在少子化一個投開票所也大概15坪左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3678.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3685.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
如果以15坪我們現在就是說如果他來領票的時候通常是分兩組兩組來領票會以0這樣子才會疏散他的速度如果這樣的話到底我們一個投開票所編是14.5人14.5個人包含三位是監察員是沒有做事的是看我們選務工作人員管理員有沒有確實依法行政那如果11.5個人又扣掉一個警衛10.5個人兩排再發到底我們要多少個 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3708.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3719.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
桌子才可以把票發好然後之後開票之後貼在教室的15點一個15坪真是沒地方貼第二個就是我們的我們的採購案如果說採購案不確定然後不確定的話因為我們會變得說今天我們貼在教室的我們以教室來講我們的那個我們的黑板來講是不夠貼的而且剛剛好如果我們投開票的主任管理員他沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3738.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3759.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
把空白的計票紙都放下來那最快現在最快的計票房子是都把它印好所以可以直接馬上機唱票跟我們的計票馬上機那突然就說如果不再去投票比如說我們之前是個屏東的工程師我們新竹縣當投開票所突然就沒有空白的最後引起一陣混亂了那上一次5合110年5合1選舉我們的開票 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3763.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3787.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
是幾乎是全國第二為什麼因為課長竹北市公所的課長每次換選舉就是換一個課長他們壓力太大了招募招募不到開票的時候選務工作人員他的量像竹北這一次是一二選舉區議員又分開來然後又里長的票又在一起就是以里來分一個是以高速公路一個鐵道來分這個都要印選票的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3788.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3810.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
都是很複雜的然後就是我們也擔心剛剛前輩有講的說我們的招募有困難我們的應選票我們的投開票所的物資就是剛才講說給我們的主任管理員的物資到時候我們的招標案如果學校我們的主任管理員點的不夠清楚開票的當天就是混亂的就會引起暴動了然後我們群組線我想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3813.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3831.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
各位先進去年應該有知道投票通知單這件事我們是科技大縣雖然說我們的投票通知單就是可以用電子的方式給可是基於平等權每個人都要拿到資本但現在我們所講的如果不再急投票的話那些涉及 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3832.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3857.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
沒有設計在新竹縣可是就是剛才講說台積電聯發科的工程師要在新竹縣投票的時候投票通知單如何以他的工作地還是居所地如何送達給他去年新竹縣我們主委前主委要求就是我們七日前要送達我們有旅行二日前法規規定二日前要送達準時採線送達這個部分都引起暴動了都上了頭版 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3858.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3874.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以如果今天他們這些高級知識分子在投票日前兩日沒辦法 因為實施不在地投票沒辦法準時送達他的投票通知單是不是我們要引起全國的投板 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3875.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3896.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
選務工作人員每每竹北市公所每每選舉完就是陣亡一批人大家感覺說我們沒在選舉的時候沒事做其實這時間我們也辦了非常多的補選然後剛才講的說我們的收票方式所以終結很多很多因素在我們回歸到說目前可能實務上還有採購案還有法令上 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3898.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3913.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
法令上該前輩也講的我們必須選舉人名冊必須20日前要變照那這些我們要保障這些戶籍地以外的居所地還有在工作地投票的如何做我們的選舉人名冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3915.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3932.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
東東的正確因為現在的我們的發票處的管理員一定是依照選舉人名冊來做那通常二組就是我們的護證科在編造選舉人名冊就是20日前一個晚上沒有睡覺的在編造然後就是我們也會依照這個名冊來發票 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3934.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3949.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
然後就是說我們通常的獎席也是會確定投開票所工作人員都要做獎席我們的獎席也會在確定是20日的時候來辦獎席那這個選舉人名冊如果都不能確定我們獎席如何辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3950.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3963.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
就是說我們的講習的部分就是其實每次選舉都要感謝旁邊的朋友還有我們在座的長官的協助因為公所同事也就這麼多而已然後再請各位再仔細考量 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3967.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3980.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
好我們謝謝那我們接著我們就請專家學者發言那其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們請第一位楊志傑教授主席各位好我是雲林科技大學楊志傑我今天的報告要比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3996.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4020.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
日本南韓跟加拿大制度聚焦在移轉投票提前投票並提出設計建議首先看日本日本的提前在即投票選民不需要事前申請只要在公告日至選前一日直接前往護局地的提前投票所即可例如日本眾議院即將在2月8日改選 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4022.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4045.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
1月7日到前1天2月7日都可以做提前投票那麼移轉投票他會跟提前投票所結合選民最慢只要在選前一日向戶籍地選會提出申請包括線上申請選委會會寄發選票跟信封選民再到指定的投票所投票投票時間跟提前投票時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4046.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4058.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
一樣但是因為要寄送所以要提前準備目前日本網站上公告從1月19號開始就已經可以提前申請約約為選前20日 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4062.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4078.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
接下來看南韓南韓將提前投票與移轉投票結合投票日通常在週三提前投票與移轉投票在前一個週五週六選民可以直接到各地提前投票所利用提前 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4079.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4103.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
進行提前投票和移轉投票不需要事前申請各地提前投票所會利用電腦與網路連線全國整合選舉人名冊當場印製特製選票投完票後在本地提前投票的選票留在該地而移轉投票的選票則統一寄回給互集地選委會再來看加拿大 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4106.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4134.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
加拿大的提前投票跟移轉投票也都不需要事前申請一些細節呢 各位請參閱簡報我用這個表來比較三個國家制度的差異首先 南韓 加拿大都不需要事前申請移轉投票因為都用電腦網路即時連線全國選舉人名冊只有日本要事前申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4136.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4159.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
然後日本原戶籍地選委會印製選票信封寄給選民在選票意志上日本就會由原戶籍地印製南韓是現場直接印製那加拿大的移轉投票呢限於原選區但他選區很大所以他的選票是一樣的沒有特別印製的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4162.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4186.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那麼移轉投票因為要將投票寄回給援護基地的選委會去開票所以南韓跟日本為什麼要搭配提前投票就是要提早投完寄回才可以在同一天開票而南韓的提前投票只限於選前的某兩天這樣子比較好管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4189.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4205.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我個人認為呢如果擔心選票外流的一些問題的話南韓的制度是最值得參考而且南韓的大選投票率確實也比台灣高那實質上有沒有像剛剛選務機關講的那麼多問題其實根本沒有這麼多問題以下呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4211.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4223.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
給各位用圖片做一些介紹首先南韓的提前投票所只需要三個設備中間是身份確認機左邊是筆電與全國選舉人名冊連線右邊是特別的選票印支機 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4230.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4255.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
基本的配置跟台灣差不多就是只要兩人一人負責身份驗證確認筆電中的選舉人資訊第二人負責印選票以及信封標籤交給選民身份驗證設備可讀取身份證明卡片和簽名選票印製機及時印製該選民的選票 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4259.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4277.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
若某一次選舉的選票特別多同一台機器可以用不同顏色同時印製多張選票若是援護集體的提前投票只領取選票若是移轉投票多領取一個信封套 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4279.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4307.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
信封套上會印有標籤也是當場印製印有戶籍地資訊之後將由投票所統一寄回給戶籍地選委會選票在開票正式的選舉日前都集中保管24小時電視監控回頭看台灣現行草案行政院提出的不在籍投票法草案內容非常落後 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4308.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4330.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
草案要求選民必須在投票日60天前申請轉投票重新編制選舉人名冊這很不切實際年輕人的工作或求學能否返鄉投票往往臨時決定怎麼可能60日前申請日本 韓國 加拿大都沒有這種不合理要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4332.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4351.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
且科技進步全國各地投票所都可以用電腦即時連線到全國統一選舉人名冊不需要浪費時間編制實體選舉人名冊且能透過網路即時查詢這個人的投票狀況台灣的技術做不到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4353.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4380.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
2009年的消費券領取就是採取我們現在的編制選舉人名冊的方式非常的落後但是到了2020年的口罩實名制後來的三倍券普發現金都是全國網路連線有沒有人會重複領取呢透過身份證明網路及時查詢沒有人重複領取 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4383.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4408.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們的政府曾經很自豪唐鳳能在不到一個月內推出口罩實名制但在選務工作上我們還停留在編制實體選舉的名冊投票通知單上要印在名冊第幾頁人工一頁一頁查詢日本2003年4月修正公職選舉法引入提前投票制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4409.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4427.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
同時移轉投票也配合修正同年11月的眾議院選舉就全面實施南韓2014年1月修改公職選舉法引入提前投票與移轉投票同年6月的地方選舉就全面實施台灣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4432.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4458.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我相信不在即投票若能在2026年上半年通過年底的地方選舉絕對來得及實施台灣的科技實力也絕對做得到我期許政府官員能以科技實力落實人民的選舉權而非找各種藉口理由阻礙人民的選舉權謝謝大家好謝謝那我們繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4462.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4464.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
掌櫃美教授主席各位先進大家好我覺得可能剛才因為有些機關或者是地方政府代表有提到一些問題我想我自己的部分因為有書面我就先不談但是有幾個焦點可能需要溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4490.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4510.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
剛才中選會書面還是口頭都有提到說先公投後辦選舉後公職大概是這個意思但是我的疑惑是譬如說你特別投票所涉及到軍人或者是特殊身分的一些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4512.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4539.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
譬如說他的工作地跟他的戶籍在不同地方的人很多種不同身分的人如果你先公投那事實上我們選辦法已經通過了公投跟大選又綁回來了那所以他是不是還是要跑一趟所以這個邏輯我聽不懂這是很奇怪的邏輯也就是說你只辦公投公投跟大選是一起選結果公投的那一塊你先用移轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4540.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4566.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那大選的那一塊呢那它等於是沒有幫到十億所以這是非常奇怪的邏輯這是第一個問題那第二個問題是即使你不在即投票實際上你也是同一天開票吧我想這一塊管你是什麼黨應該沒有什麼爭議我們會主張說不在即投票這個今天開 明天那個開不可能啊它一定是同一天開票 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4567.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4574.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以很多的疑慮在我看來是不會發生的你開票還是同一天所以這是第二個問題第三個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4578.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4600.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個在這個所謂的不在籍投票裡面台北市選委會當然也有提到說這個移轉投票會增加兩三倍的投票數我不知道這是怎麼算出來的那當然你會涉及到你移轉要不要限制還是全面開放你就算可以移轉他也不見得會移轉所以那兩三倍是怎麼算的我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4601.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4608.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那像大學生很多他後級不在那邊他可能會移轉搞不好很多根本連移轉都不想做他就是想回家 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4609.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4635.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以我們在做一些很沒有科學數據的推論我會認為對於實施不在籍投票這件事一直看到負面沒有陽光積極進取的這一塊那所以當然會涉及到移轉投票你申請資格到底要不要限制我覺得那跟行政能力有關行政能力很差你可能就限制你行政能力很強為什麼會限制我就不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4635.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4646.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那當然我剛看了一大堆機關的書面法務部的書面這次比上次認真多了在第四頁呢他提到一個法理的問題我覺得這個是可以參考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4647.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4675.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
也就是說投票權本來就是人民的公權所以我們是怎麼樣去促成讓他去行使而不是找各種行政的理由來阻礙他的行使這個思維是有問題的所以法務部提到說你要有差別對待的話假設你要限制身分或什麼你要有差別對待你要想到你公益跟你的這個目的之間是不是有橫平有沒有實質關聯那事物的本質是什麼事物本質法務部沒有寫當然我會想到事物的本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4677.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4695.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
是要人民行使公權嘛所以我覺得這個觀念上天差地差很難找到目前比較具體可以溝通的部分那當然還有一個問題就是說那哪些身份的人需要移轉呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4695.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4718.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以我在書面裡面第一個就有提到選務工作的人這個過去可能有做公務員 軍警那我上次有講過阿扁的這個2000年的時候限制出來投票的人這麼多那我們怎麼知道台灣這麼安定嗎我們怎麼知道選舉當天不會發生任何問題所以有一些人他根本來不及嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4718.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4737.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以像這些身分的醫護人員 大學生 醫工等等這些人我覺得都是所謂不在籍投票的主要的對象我們要想辦法去解決這些問題你即使海外我們現在一巴掌就把海外全部打死我不認同有辦事處的你可以嘗試 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4739.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4750.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
大陸沒有辦事處嘛也許你可以cancel或怎麼樣我不知道你明明有辦事處你連考慮都不考慮那你要有足以說服的理由那請問理由是什麼那另外還有譬如說倒是剛才呢這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4758.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4775.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
各種原因裡面我倒是有注意到一個問題就是所謂社會公正人士社會公正人士我們那個很多老師不願意去做可是那個問題跟我們要不要不再一起投票這不相干我的意思 它以前就有這個問題後來我們就開放了三分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4776.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4800.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
公交變三分之一了 數字本來就不一樣了你即使沒有不在即 它還是有這個問題所以我覺得因次變數 因變數一定要分清楚很多東西不要扯成一團好 那另外還有一個問題這個我覺得在書面裡面我有提到一個112的憲判制第11號 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4801.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4816.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
一二的先判之第十一號他最主要大法官給我們一個很重要的概念他說你實際居住的定義不應該再侷限在過去居家生活或住宿等傳統概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4817.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4840.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我覺得這句話非常重要 我們不是農業社會人綁在土地上 幾代都不安土中天幾代都住在那裡現在時代早就不一樣 不是今天才不一樣是很早以前我們時代就變了只是我們不自覺而已 對不對你人不是綁在土地上的所以大法官在1、2憲判之十一號的觀念是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4841.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4863.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
他具有憲法釋憲的位階我們為什麼在所有的機關裡面不會談這一號呢我覺得這一號非常重要啊那所以他說人民基於持續就業跟所在這個所處地區實質上建立政治社群的歸屬感跟認同感也應該承認幹嘛 他在工作場所所在地區擁有選舉權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4866.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4889.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這句話是非常重要的概念它是今天我們忙了半天的一個最主要的關鍵的思維同時我也舉了一個這個在113的應該是在第四段書面113年的7月4號這台北高等行政法院做的一個判決這時間都很近這是112年數字第969號的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4891.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4908.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那這個判決裡面 他講得非常清楚這是桃園的一個案子那所以他講的重點是什麼他的判決裡面講得非常清楚喔不管你是從文藝解釋 或者是你從目的解釋或者你從體系解釋你都應該導出什麼這是這個當事人的基本權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4915.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4928.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那所以他說選委會呢 並不是法律上的不能也不是事實上的不能 是行政怠惰欸那這一號判決為什麼大家都不看我覺得中選會 地方選委會都應該看啊至少到目前為止沒有新的判例或判決推翻他嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4935.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4958.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那他認為是行政怠惰啊那至少你特別投票所的部分你是可以去考慮的他是有本有據的所以我覺得我們討論的基礎最好在既有的基礎上去討論否則的話你可以講一萬個理由那我請問你剛電子化政府的時候大家也抗拒啊那我們現在不是很多東西都電子化了嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請宗嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4972.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4998.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好我以為有投影先把投影放出來好謝謝主席剛剛恭聽了恭臨了幾位學者專家的意見我會很快的講今天呢我的主題啊就是台灣投票模式民主友邦都肯定不在即東勢孝平人民難信任怎麼說呢我們來看一下就在去年的九月啊有一位韓國的國會議員金文電他對他們的金明錫總理呢提出質疑他提到誇獎了台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4999.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5019.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
經濟成長率比韓國還要高除了半導體還有什麼優勢結果他得到的結論是什麼台灣的開票制度投開票制度成為韓國年輕人的嚮往我們只知道台灣的年輕人嚮往韓劇 韓流不曉得韓國年輕人居然他們會欣賞台灣的投開票制度它怎麼運作的為什麼會引起海外的激賞呢我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5020.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5049.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
其實臺灣最有價值的資產陳如己為先進所說的就是我們的民主制度就是我們的投票模式你看就在2024年剛大選完之後居然這是一個投票什麼效果呢他可以向外向國際社會表達民意華爾街日報他就說了臺灣人民不是他是不希望被你中國干涉同時呢對內要公正公開你看連美國的政治家家都對我們臺灣開票那影片啊哇他覺得好了不起啊任何人都可以監督往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5050.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5075.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那麼台灣的民主產權怎麼投票呢什麼是民主 主權在民 民意施政怎麼成選 透過定期的選舉投票選出了民意代表可以表達我們的民意這需要什麼呢這個制度需要一個選民的信任跟完善的制度完善的制度成為我們剛剛有三位來自台北市 高雄市跟新竹縣的選務工作人員我跟大家介紹一下我過去在地方政府服務過長達十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5077.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5103.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我很清楚知道我們地方的選委會副總幹事是最重要的靈魂人物因為他是專職專任其他的總幹事搞不好還是民政處長民政局長兼任的副總幹事最清楚我們所有選舉大大小小每一個環節他們的提醒他們的建議我們要認真的去思考因為他們要運作一個完善的制度人民選民才會信任因此公平透明而且長期的得來不易我們再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5103.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5118.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那台灣的制度哪裡做得好呢我們先看韓國的制度韓國它可以提前投票而且不再急投票加上它集中開票用電子點票結果舞弊陰謀論就四起它雖然很方便但是反過來開票的時候耗時長而且常常會被質疑選舉造假 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5121.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5148.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
相對的台灣的制度看起來很原始對不對用紙本投票 票鬼取票 檢票唱票看起來就跟算盤一樣一個蘿蔔一個動作一個口令然後彙整後呢全程公開選民信任雖然成本比較高但是在開票耗時短沒有運送檢票的爭議那為什麼台灣要開倒車去破壞現有制度呢也不完全我們認為不在一起投票就是一種反動他其實想要解決問題要解決什麼問題我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5150.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5165.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
其實如果我們要解決一個問題沒有成功反而創造更大的問題你們看一看就在2024年那時候美國大選虛假訊息公眾就有質疑然而在2018年台灣也經歷過公投並大選造成了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5166.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5190.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
選舉的過程非常混亂還造成了包括市長的候選人之一提起了選舉訴訟那個直到一年之後才決定所以我們看到在台北市剛剛幾位像新竹縣的選委會的副總幹事台北市的選委會的副總幹事都提到了這些人口密集的地方我們所做一些變革會不會招來我們想像不到的後果呢一定要慎重不要邊開邊投選舉不公往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5194.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5212.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所以如果要便利投票我們看看目前的預算問題是什麼問題是有些人因為部分公民因為職業的屬性他沒有辦法有效率的便利去參與或者說返鄉投票成本高那當然我們看一下目前有不在籍投票或移轉投票的版本當中規範不清選民混亂剛剛幾個人提出的問題幾位選務副總幹事都提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5218.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5242.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
包括我看到我們的報告當中有些這個學者專家認為我看有一個大致的取向在現實便利跟恐懼當中我們不能徘徊太久我同意這個引述但是我們要知道選務工作我們移轉投票不是像三眼療癒那麼簡單就把它移轉過去你要想想看我們的選票不是現場輸出的那麼多選票7000多種組合排列 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5247.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5271.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
雖然你可以用這樣的方式去處理但是選務的工作怎麼解決所以我們認為目前提前放假 交通便利 房子這些都是我們可以考慮的最後的結論 來 兩個台灣投票模式已經累積社會信用任何嘗試要漸進 要規劃 要審慎推動而且消除投票的障礙不在即 不是唯一的解方多元方案都可以納入評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5272.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5281.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
包括全國一致性的總統或全國性的公投或許可以先考慮採行但是我們機會的選舉制度不容一下子全面更動 以上好 謝謝那我們繼續請羅承宗教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5302.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5318.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
主席 科技觀念長官 各位學者專家 大家午安 大家好就有7分鐘的時間 但是我的PPT超過十幾張所以我很快的開始重陳一下那基本上我來的時候把立法院所有的草案都看完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5319.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5348.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以說基本 我就繼續講下去吧好 目前其實立法院的所有的草案大概分這就用這一頁啦 那個立法院的系統真的很棒我們看到說行政機關有一個政府提案委員有十六個提案我這個立法院有個做個顏色那因為太淡看不清楚 我簡單來講行政機關也有不在即投票的草案然後呢 在立法院各黨都有不在即投票的草案所以基本上不在即投票這件事情沒有人說不做啦這是共識了 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5349.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5368.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那只是問題在哪裡呢在於範圍我們來看一下完全有共識的部分是全國性公投所以這個在我們的中選會的草案或是有些委員版的草案都把那個移轉投票的部分放在全國性公投為什麼呢因為全國性公投不管你在哪裡投都是那一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5369.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5399.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以在執行上這個是最簡單的嘛那這個就是最簡單先行的所以有共識我們就不談了那沒共識是哪裡呢基本上就是四塊第一個 總統副總統簡單來說在台灣到目前為止我們對於選事情這件事情是有共識的可以用不在己可以用疑傳但是就選人頭這件事情大家是有爭議的那這些人頭包括呢總統副總統中央層級的民選公職員地方層級的民選公職員那地方選公投基本上這個其實可以省略 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5399.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5418.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
不談啦因為其實台灣對地方性公投的興趣不是那麼高那我們就不用浪費時間繼續呢其實剛才楊志傑老師跟剛才好幾個人的爭論其實都卡在這一頁那這一頁是我原創的基本上台灣的選舉到現在為止我們採請的方式叫做non-tech |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5419.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5439.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
就是無科技就剛才我們嘉賓委員講的原始什麼叫做原始我們回想一下從領票要那個簿子資本的簿子到蓋章到財源身份證後來我們就要進去那個票軌票軌完以後要去投票投完票以後開票還是用一張白報紙貼在黑白上的政治號這是non-tech |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5440.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5455.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
不是non-tech不好反而外國覺得說台灣搞得那麼原始還那麼的厲害所以non-tech是台灣非常驕傲的一個厲害的東西但是我們就從過去到現在我們就一直在non-tech所以我們連low-tech都做不到更遑論high-tech |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5456.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5474.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這是現在進行式這個沒有辦法好爭論的所以剛才我們很多各機關講的就是說因為我們所有在想像的就是說我們都在non-tech這個前提之下來去想說萬一立法院去擴大了不再去投票的話怎麼辦那基本上呢這個提問我自問自答我們準備好了嗎當然沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5475.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5495.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
要做的話也是2027年以後為什麼是這樣呢可能楊志祺老師對預算不是很了解啦這個不是種九神塔種九神塔60天就可以收成了問題是今天你說真的要推這個草案的話呢我就問一個問題嘛 錢咧?你要建置系統吧那建置系統的話呢 你要邊概算吧我們現在2026年中央政府總預算還沒審 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5497.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5523.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我還在用債券預算所以你今天真的要做這個事情的話現在中選會或內政部就要把電子投票所有的錢放在2027年度中央政府榮譽書的概算裡面沒有這個概算的話你怎麼推所以基本上再快你今年現在23月把概算放進去的話最快也要2027而且它的前提是不經過測試我們法律人有個很糟糕的狀況是我們不做實驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5524.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5552.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那很糟糕什麼意思你任何制度的推行都要做實驗嘛這是我們科技大學的一個基本想法嘛所以你這個東西當然建制系統以後你要去run你要去試物嘛才可以真的推嘛你真的好你這個系統建制一年以後就敢丟出來用誰敢用啊所以基本上再講一次最快也要2027年啦所以也因為這樣我們在今年只能夠繼續擁抱non-tech因為沒有錢制度也不能就算制度改也做不到嘛所以一言以蔽剛才有人說基本地方今年第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5552.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5574.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
底的九合一可以辦我覺得不可能因為這個就是我們週一選舉會的角度有近9000種的選票我相信那些人沒有當過公務員沒有辦過選務啦9000種選票你怎麼弄啊 鬼扯 OK所以簡單來說好 看了一下我們第二段就是說如果你今年年底就要把這個適用範圍擴及最複雜的地方選舉的話呢基本上選務是鐵定無法執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5575.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5590.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那學務田徑無法執行呢我就以我們學校來講這是我們學校一個宿舍的一個角落這四個很可愛的大學男同學他們分別住在四個不同的地方好 那我們學校在高雄的楠梓跟彥草 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5591.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5616.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以今天這一個宿舍的小朋友們要移轉投票到校外的那個投票開票所的話你知道我們要多準備多少種選票嗎我這裡面還有長梅港我們裡面還有復興區裡面還有原住民區長所以你光是為這一間宿舍就要新增多少種選票旁邊的那個會辦到死然後更不好意思的講本校學生不過26937人 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5621.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5635.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
OK然後扣掉在籍的以後住宿舍的你看看那些學生跑出來投票的話附近的選屋大概會爆掉所以一句話今年不可能那真的是這個地方請大家思考一下再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5636.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5663.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以我們現在目前立法院的幾個草案分別是這四種態度最下面一個態度就只這兩個態度那就是只辦全國性公投那上面兩個那個是中國國民黨的草案第一個是他們認為只辦中央不要辦地方有一個這個案另外一個是比較野心大一點說要辦地方但是他留了一個後門是說地方什麼時候辦那由中央地方決之這兩個都是中國國民黨的草案然後最 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5664.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5690.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
最霸氣的是中央地方一併適用而且沒有緩衝法律通過就實行的這個是哪個案呢這個是去年台灣民眾黨的草案基本上我看完所有的草案以後最不科學理性務實就是這個案但是這個案很特別他被拉出來禁負二讀我們現在不是在簽內政委員會嗎不 內政委員會還有幾個案子被丟包在這一邊結果他真的跑去了而且禁負二讀是最好的草案也就算了可是最糟糕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5691.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5708.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
OK嗎他就是要再講一次他就是把範圍開到最大而且沒有緩衝基本上就是要讓基層的學務人員完全沒辦法辦這個學局然後再來我們看比較兩個相對好一點的板是王國威板跟陳薇金板王國威板的話基本上就半九合一了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5709.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5727.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
中央的78種的立法委員區選舉要辦但是至少這個是2028年的事情我們還有點緩衝時間然後成為一金版的話就是雖然開到最大但是至少說地方選舉的部分或地方的公投的話行政機關自己決定所以你要演5年10年都可以最後幾分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5728.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5752.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
再來的話呢 給國會的具體建議就是說不要被丟包了啦最爛的那個禁負二讀的版本不要讓它出來 那不好那這個事情真的要審慎討論所以像今天這個場合就非常的健康大家一起在委員會談不是很好嗎還有很多好版本在這裡嘛再來呢 除非想搞爛選舉的害死自己剛才我們有新竹的講 還有台北的講告訴各位 北北基桃加起來有涉及900萬人口加上流動人口超過1000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5753.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5774.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
如果你這個用台灣民眾版本下去玩死的話誰會被玩死 大家都知道吧OK 就被賣雞頭所以最後 可是我還是繞回來我們現在返鄉投票我們剛才這個世衛宿舍當然是真的很累然後網路時代用這個時代用網路取代馬路很難嗎所以我講的是外 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5774.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5800.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
未來可能是2030、2040年我們終究無法迴避這件事情了台灣基本上就像剛才仁俊老師講的一樣我們都可以發錢了我們都可以收稅了那這件事情我們要等到多少年謝謝我們接下來請黃仁俊教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5807.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5829.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
主席 各位長官 各位縣進大家好 我是黃仁俊很榮幸今天能夠前來這個不在己投票的公聽會發表一下自己作為專家學者的意見首先對於提綱一對於是否實施不當期投票我原則上是支持贊成的立場以選舉平等原則作為一個出發點 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5830.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5849.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
透過不再擠投票確實可以使公民的選舉權盡可能達到一個平等的權利也促進權力的實現但是關鍵在於哪裡關鍵永遠就是剛跟陳上一位羅老師所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5850.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5871.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
關鍵在於配套機制要怎麼處理那我們之前也看過我們這個十個公投案大概就是我們的選務的量能就差不多在這裡如果是結合這個選舉跟公投綁在一起的話那十個公投案大概我們地方選舉的量能或者投開票所的量能就在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5873.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5900.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
在這裡並不是權有或權無的關係我們還是要維持想辦法維持選舉制度的信任點以及降低不在籍投票的風險對於制度的信任我們現在信任的是什麼我們現在信任的就是投票所當天轉為開票所的歷來做法以及我們希望的是選舉結果可以在當天傍晚出爐的期待性 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5901.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5930.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這是我們不想要去變動的那也是我們的信任的基礎所以我們在這個選舉量能的前車之鑑之下如果選舉版公投現在是已經在公投法第23條有規定了那我們未來可能會面臨到的是不是要分離開票因為會真的開不出來就是要開到半夜這樣或者是要技術性的分離受理也就是用技術性的逃離公投法23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5931.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5938.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
或者是只先開選舉票那公投票隔一天再開的這個可能性這是我們可以想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5939.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5967.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那同時我們要如何降低不在籍投票的風險在這個提綱來說都會想到是有境外敵對勢力的不當干預但我們也不要忘記我們已經有一部這個反滲透法它就在選舉期間然後來對這個境外敵對勢力的不當干預進行相關的管制所以公民團體的擔憂在跟制度信賴的本身我們必須要做一個權衡但這個權衡不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5969.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5986.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
全有或全無都不做或者是全部都開放而是如何想辦法一步一步的這個做那我們這個移轉投票或公民投票不在籍投票其實是已經很久了就是從102年開始我們一直開始在思考如何進行但 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5988.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6014.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
如何進行就是要跨出這個勇敢的第一步勇敢的第一步要怎麼做呢我們要先思考的是不在即投票對於選務量能我們的選務量能到底在哪裡是不是有可以限縮或者是總量管制的說法就是說一轉投票當然有可能我們這個投開票所就可能多少額量就只能多少額量如果你要去其他投開票所那你就去其他或者就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6015.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6032.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那或者是只開放上午的做法因為下午因為他票國要回原選區為什麼票國要回原選區呢這裡有一個很重要的關鍵是我們剛剛那個新竹選委會有提到說會有選舉訴訟的開始我們的選舉訴訟會有一個重新計票的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6033.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6061.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那地方法院就是要去封票軌那你票軌如果不再起投票一個票軌在那個法院的管轄地就會出現了相關的爭議我台北的法院要跑去高雄那邊做管理去封票軌嗎還是那個票軌要趕快回來到台北這裡會有一個票軌要如何要進行的思考點也涉及到法院的管轄地這邊這邊是我們現行法所還沒有這個談論的但我覺得也是可以思考的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6062.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6088.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那不再集投票看起來就是要走一個漸進式的這個內涵那我們剛剛也看到這個建案二讀通過的版本先行法的法案先行法的法案是已經有原住民先行的可能性了那我在這裡我想不到有可以跟全國性跟地方性要分開的區別標準為什麼全國性優先為什麼不全國性優先而這樣的區別標準是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6089.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6116.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我覺得是想不到的有可能是這個量能的可能性量能的可能性我自己是思考的點是希望可以用原住民立委先行的模式讓我們試辦一下怎麼樣進行以變動最小的方式來試行那在這個二讀的版本之間我有一個小小的疑惑就是這個補選不在此限的議題為什麼補選會被排除有可能是因為這個經濟的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6118.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6138.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那但是呢我們從大法官這個憲法法庭一二憲判十八來選舉重新計票案他就已經規定了我們選舉不會分大小不應該分大小不應該分是一個鄉村縣市長的選舉跟選村長的選舉而對於選舉的功能有所不一樣有所 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6140.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6150.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
差別待遇所以補選應該也不應該被差別待遇補選應該也要可以納入這個不在籍投票的思考點 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6151.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6180.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那第四個提綱誰可以擔任這個不在籍投票的人當然是有選舉權的人那在這裡我們有選舉權的人申請這個投票的時候很重要就是要注意這個投票秘密的思考點就是現行的選務人員同樣也現行的選務人員投票同樣也面臨這個選務秘密的這個思考點是不是要集中就是票軌要集中開在一起還是要當天 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6181.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6190.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
當天的投票所轉開票所這個是一個可以討論的空間那最後也是希望可以本人申請跟親自到場來進行相關的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6191.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6216.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那考量選務的可行性我是認為就是有準備歧視比較合理啦那這一點呢是可能需要選務選政就是內政部中選會還有立法機關三方可以再進行討論跟協商法案的機制但有一點要就是作為一個法律學者或憲法公法學者想要提出的是我們在立法裡喔每次經過政黨協商後或臨時動議後 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6219.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6240.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
立法理由就不見了這個對我們法律學者是一個很困擾的事為什麼政黨協商協商後不能有一個形式上的立法理由呢而且那每次那你要做原意解釋的時候或立法者解釋的時候我們都不知道立法者在想什麼都寫政黨協商四個字這一點是未來立法者可以思考的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6241.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6257.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
看政黨寫上四個字是無法做法規範的解釋的那希望在法案通過前呢會有其他跟法律的整合譬如說我們戶籍的變動還有原住民選區的搭配以及選取期程的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6259.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6282.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個設計票務的運送運算的增加以及選舉訴訟的管轄這是我們希望在法案通過前能夠多方的匯集相關的意見以及法案通過後中選會這裡很大部分是要依賴中選會訂定執法的這方面也需要相關的法案研究還有相關的這個努力來進行最後做一個小小的結論就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6284.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6306.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
要改善在籍者投票跟不在籍者投票其實兩者之間是並沒有衝突的就是在籍者投票跟這兩回事那公投綁大選之下我們關鍵點還是要去盤點選務的量能在選務可負擔下依法推動不在籍投票好 謝謝我的報告到此謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請麥玉珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6317.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6339.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
主席各位專家學者親愛的家人大家好今天我代表台灣民眾黨熱烈的歡迎我們大家各位專家在百忙之中願意抽空時間來我們的立法院指導及建議我要向大家報告台灣民眾黨提出不再即投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6340.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6360.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
立法草案不是為了顛覆制度而是為了回應人民真正的生活樣貌今天台灣有超過200萬人民因為就學工作輪班或照顧家庭被迫在投票日長途返鄉付出時間金錢與體力的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6367.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6382.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這本身就是一道不合理的民主門檻台灣民眾黨版本的核心非常清楚我要跟大家講三次在台灣 在台灣 在台灣很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6382.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6386.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以境內移轉投票以特定身份指定場所投票我們不採通信投票不採網路投票所有投票的行為都是本人親自到投票所完成確保投票秘密與選舉的安全這是一套在安全與便利之間最保守最可監督的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6412.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6438.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
最能落實的制度設計行政部門多次以共識不足還有就是票種複雜風險過高作為反對的理由但我們要強調制度複雜從來不是從來不是不改革的正當理由中選會自己也承認總統副總統選舉於 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6442.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6464.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
全國性公投因為票種單一以轉投票具備可行性相關草案也早在很久就已經提出了問題不是做不到而是為什麼可行的部分不先 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6465.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6474.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
執行我們主張分階段分票種事辦推動用技術解決技術的問題用制度降低風險而不是用想像的風險否決人民的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6485.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6491.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
至於會選與動員先行返鄉投票早已存在灰色空間跟需要一套的透明可集合的制度把問題攤在陽光下不再急投票不是為了方便少數人民而是讓年輕人不被再擋在外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6514.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6524.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
也沒辦法執行自己的民主之外也讓長輩安心之度不被破壞真正的民主不是口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6526.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6555.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
不是補貼 也不是多放假而是讓人民在生活所在地用安全有效又接地氣變民的方式行使投票權希望我們一起共同討論出一套讓我們人民的需求也變民又符合現在的技術建立一套符合這樣的人民的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6557.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6582.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
讓我們大家真正的為人民的需求辨明來去做一個我們的修法謝謝主席也再次謝謝我們的專家學者各位官員各位的來支持我們這個法案希望我們把這個法案真正再上路讓我們全國都可以享用 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6586.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6589.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們繼續請黃澄漢研究員主席 各位委員 在座的專家學者我想我們之前已經開過一個性質非常類似的公聽會我想在這次大家也在繼續的交流更多的意見我想最近開始在討論就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6613.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6629.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
應該說唯一在討論的版本就是民眾黨團的版本我們看到張啟凱委員他在新聞上說就跟剛剛也有老師講到就是說日本跟南韓的不在籍投票制度可能會是民眾黨黨團的參考的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6632.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6658.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是有一個重點就是大家一直都沒有討論到就是說台灣是一個強烈的人籍合一的國家也就是說我們大部分的政治權利還有其他很多的權利都跟戶籍有高強度的綑綁那但是日本他是這個所謂的戶籍和住民票分離的這個人籍分離的制度韓國同樣也是採取人籍分離的制度那就是因為這個人籍分離的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6660.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6677.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們要去考量就是說在立法案有裡面提到部分國民常年因在外地就學這個移地工作不同的因素那但是從這個角度來看如果用我們這個人機合一的戶籍法精神來看待的話他應該要有這個簽戶籍的事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6679.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6702.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
再來就是說從這個角度來看或許我們應該重新的來討論個人政治權利跟戶籍綑綁的正當性的基礎在哪邊但這是一個非常長遠的課題不過從這個角度來看投票給在住地的立委 市長或是在住地的議員跟里長或許比不在籍的移轉投票在這個立法的角度上更加合理回到今天公聽會的主旨第一題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6709.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6738.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
如何避免選務混亂如何避免境外敵對勢力不當的干預剛剛大家都提到很多從金明聯的立場我們已經多次的強調已經有既定的事實是一個借選的模式是受中共中央台灣工作辦公室所指導的一個單位叫全國台灣同胞投資企業聯誼會我們簡稱它叫台企聯在過去已經有非常明確的案例可以看到它以提供優惠機票的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6739.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6766.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
來幫助介入台灣的民主選舉這已經是過去多次的選舉都有出現的案例州選會和相關的機關至今仍然沒有有效的方式來因應這個問題為什麼要提到這個就是說未來如果採取無限制的一轉投票我們要去考慮的是台企聯過去要買機票送大家回台北送大家回高雄送大家回台中這個機票的成本是高昂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6767.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6787.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那他現在他可以協助在中國居住之台灣有選舉權的人來辦理移轉投票到金門 馬祖來實行小三通來降低他介入選舉的成本那從這個角度來看這個問題我們目前仍然沒有看到在討論中有很好的處理方式跟解決的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6788.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6797.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以從這個角度來看不是張祺凱委員他提到說沒有通訊投票沒有海外投票或是剛剛麥玉珍委員也提到沒有通訊投票沒有海外投票所以不會有這個借選的問題所以大家在抹紅他們但是我們不是在討論這個單一的委員的意圖我們在討論是說在討論不在籍投票的法案的時候我們需要同步的考慮可能的介入選舉的狀況但 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6815.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6838.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
現在我們在現有的法案我們在現有的管制裡面我們沒有看到可能對於介入選舉的可能性的管制再來就是說民政黨黨團的版本目前它仍然沒有明確的規定申請的程序為何我們過去也已經提到如果只需要書面的申請而不需要本人自護證機關來查核身份來進行申請的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6842.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6847.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
很容易就出現像是過去剛剛選務委員也提到就是說可能會有會選的問題這是其一第二就是他可能不需要花錢會選了他只要取得你的身分證字號他只要取得你的簽名的樣式他就可以進行茂名的移轉讓選舉人在到現場的時候沒有票可以投立法者應該要來去思考怎麼去處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6869.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6878.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那成員來看我們認為對於不在籍投票的核心意義我們仍然要予以支持那就是鼓勵或是說促進大家參與政治的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6879.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6907.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
但是提案政黨所舉例的各種不在籍投票的案例包括日本 包括韓國平均而言它的投票率是比台灣還要低的所以我們要考慮的是如果你的立法意旨是為了提升投票率的話那它可能不一定可以達成這個效果因為過去的政治學研究有告訴我們說不在籍投票鼓勵的是那些本來就會去投票的人進行不在籍投票而不是鼓勵更多人出來投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6909.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6926.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
通選投票 境外投票跟代理投票我想大家的共識是它不可能也不可以在台灣實施那這正是因為包括在這個資安上的疑慮包括我們境外勢力的疑慮這些投票對於我們的這個民主的傷害可能會大過它的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6926.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6941.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那電子投票仍然有高度的資安風險而且選舉結果不容易獲得大家的信任我們也認為是難以推動那所以最後可以討論的就是一轉投票特色投票和提前投票需要在審慎的思考之後才能來緩步的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6945.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6957.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
剛剛已經有委員討論到就是說如果採行不再一投票的話我們會涉及到8896種選票的轉移這個是目前大家還沒有討論出一個很好的方式來處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6959.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6979.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
再來就是說我們認為目前已經三讀通過原住民不在意投票都還沒有正式的來實施我們根本就不知道不在意投票它的效果是怎麼樣它可能產生的問題是怎麼樣在這個時候貿然的討論2026年的選舉應該採取全面性的不在意投票它的問題可能會比它的效果更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6981.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6997.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
剛剛選委有提到這個工作膨脹的問題我們就不再提所以從這個角度來看我們覺得針對現行的條文現行的施行方式針對總統 副總統選舉還有原住民立委的選舉來實施全面性的不再計投票可能會是相對更妥適的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6998.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7025.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以如同前面所述現在的不再投票的草案仍然有非常多的細節還有問題需要來中選會來這個制定相關的細則還有需要主管機關來討論解決那為了避免新法造成的選務問題還有爭議它可能會嚴重的衝擊人民對於選舉結果之信任在中選會的相關的事情細則公佈前我們認為不應該採行全面的不再投票也就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7027.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7041.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
現在立法說公佈日時薪是不可行的再來就是說我們認為州選會它已經公佈投票日還有工作進行程序表的選舉它也不可能來採行不再接投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7043.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7063.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那最後就是說我們當初這個在討論不在意投票的時候有很大的一部分的範圍是希望保障有很多選舉權實際上被剝奪的人那在這個草案裡面他列在這個第六條但是我沒有看到他如何來保障這些人的投票權事實上是沒有很明確的這個制度性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7063.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7079.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
而保障那再來就是說我們要去很認真的討論的是如果特定的地區它存在嚴重干預選舉的風險的話我們有沒有機制來避免在這個區域或在這個類別來採行不在即投票那這正如我前面講到了這個台氣連的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7081.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7108.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那再來就是說目前的草案他其實沒有說明選票印製和轉移的細節那他可能會覺得說因為我們有這個相關的作業要點來處理這個問題但是我們要去知道的是包括這個日本韓國在內他的不在籍投票事實上是一種early voting他事實上是一種在大家開始進行實體投票之前就轉移完投票的選舉制度那這是剛剛比較少討論到的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7110.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7137.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
目前的這個選舉票硬制分發保管作業要點沒有考量到完全沒有考量到不在籍投票的立法的設立那未來要去施行的話會有很多的問題那最後就是說如果我剛剛討論到就是說我們大家都提到要學習日韓的不在籍投票或是不在者投票制度我們要非常認真的考慮到剛剛提到的那些制度都不是跟普通的投票方式跟相同的方式進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7138.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7147.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
他是在這個投票正式的投票之前就把這個選票進行轉移就把票投下去由這個相關的選務機關轉移到這個戶籍地來方便大家開票所以如何讓這個選舉結果可以保持在同一天可以開票完畢讓這個台灣的民主慣習可以繼續往 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7159.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7177.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
繼續的維持這也是大家在討論不在籍投票的時候需要非常認真的考慮的但是從現在的草案來看採行現在的不在籍投票是不可能在一天內把這個選舉結果做公佈那這對大家的民主信任會產生多少傷害我想這個大家要自己去思量以上報告好 謝謝我們繼續請吳錦青 細索主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7192.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7211.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
主席在座各位大家好剛剛一開始聽了那個機關機關代表這邊的那個發言讓我想到一個問題就是說如果大家看一下包括這個機關的書面包括大家聽起來大家都認為這個不在即投票這個方向是要實行的然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7220.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7223.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
可是這個機關這邊都提出非常多現實面的技術或者是一些困難等等的問題那我就想到一個問題那不是我們更該要趕快立法更趕快嗎更趕快來做這件事來建置這些相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7234.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7247.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
相關的這些客戶這些困難的一些系統或者是機制因為如果你今天又是今天的這個會期或是下一個會期針對這個問題還是說延後10次連法律這邊都沒通過的話那我看以後你越晚的話建制的成本越來越高我看以後都不可能了我們就永遠都保留在那個最原始就是羅教授講的No Tech的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7263.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7279.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那因為這個提綱太多啦我只針對我自己的認為重要的或自己的一個想法點幾點講出來就好了那首先呢這個不在意投票剛才已經講的很多了就我們憲法129條他強調普通平等直接無記名所以除非你有非常強的理由認為說他這個人不應該怎樣不應該實現他的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7292.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7298.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個選舉權 否則的話你就應該要保障它所以我先講結論這個不再擠投票它絕對是實現這個憲法129條人民的選舉權一個非常非常重要的方式那今天如果一直到了包括今天 甚至包括未來幾年這個都不可能實踐這一步的話那我覺得這個就不是個人或者是什麼技術的問題而絕對是國家的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7322.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7343.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那目前不在籍投票最大的問題就是我把它列三點我認為因為有一些跟實體投票的問題一樣的我就不講了比方說像會選的問題那這個我想有在籍不在籍這個都一樣那我認為首先第一個就是同意性確定的問題就是說這個投票者我們怎麼確定他是不是這個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7345.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7365.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
去投的不管你用什麼不在籍投票的方式然後再來如果保密秘密性的問題然後再來是如果確保是在自由意志之下那我就舉一個最極端的例子我覺得如果這個受刑人的投票權如果能夠我們如果在紀錄上能夠保障他的不在籍投票的話我想其他的問題都解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7367.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7388.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那這個就是國內的啦好那因為齁這個剛才齁那個我看一下這個民眾黨經過讀的這個版本裡面齁他有提到就是說齁包括監索就是受刑人未受刺激公權的他這樣列啦齁阿等一下我會再看一下那個我們再看一下那個條文這個基本上我覺得這個是有問題的因為我們2005年齁刑法修正第36條 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7392.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7414.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
目前首先第一個受刑人他不一定會被褫奪公權這第一點如果他沒有完全沒有被褫奪公權他就跟我們一般人一樣就可以選取所有的這個權利好那再來就算褫奪公權他只是沒有任公職以及出來怎樣來當公職候選人的權利有關的選舉罷免創制互決這個權利他仍然存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7419.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7423.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
意思表示什麼我們現在的所有的受刑人他全部都有投票權喔都有發明權喔所以呢在上一次選舉的時候剛才呢那個有位那個已經走掉了昆美老師他有提到那一號判決那一號判決北高興呢是判這個受刑人這邊贏可是這個最高刑罪案把他撤銷啦所以目前這個案件還沒確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7448.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7461.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好那他他這裡就提到了就是說我這裡看一下就是說我們公職剛才也有提到就是說我們一直把那個投票權跟那個戶籍綁在一起我覺得這一點也真的是這個可能要 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7461.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7466.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
要立法院這邊要重更改 改個可能在這裡他說除了六個問題一定要在戶籍地 哇這個就把他卡死了很多人沒有辦法去投票了那頂多呢他25條這邊只是規定就是說如果那個選入工作的人員可以做這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7482.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7490.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
但是我們首先就受刑人來講因為他有投票權沒有錯可是他如果要申請回戶籍去投票的話各位認為監獄會不會同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7494.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7511.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那不可能的話 那你勢必要用所謂的移轉投票就要在投開票所去設去設那個投票站但問題來了 因為受刑人可能來自全國各個戶籍那有可能他的戶籍這一個 只有比方說台東好了某某鄉 那只有他一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7517.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7543.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那這樣的話在這裡我們又要在這裡開那個所謂的秘密牆就不見了更重要的是在監獄這個監獄這個有沒有可能有自由意志能不能容易受干擾那相類似的問題還有什麼軍人也一模一樣好 那我只要講說可是如果可不可以用這些理由就完全否定掉受刑人所有他的投票權利呢這個當然是要答一個問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7544.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7569.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
然後再來就是說我剛才聽一下好像大家比較傾向於所謂的移轉如果要不再移投票要移轉投票的方式就是在各地設投票所但是好像感覺起來都一律否定什麼電子投票 通訊投票我也認為這個是有問題的因為這個等於是說在海外的全部都排除掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7570.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7590.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那當然你要講說在海外那個干擾性可能更高這個我也承認但問題就是說我要強調除非你有很重大的那個公益性的理由你看如果連受刑人他都有投票權的話如果我們也要考慮保障他的話那在海外的這些我們在這個自由中華民國籍的海外這些人士呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7591.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7596.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以這個基本上我還是認為說在考慮不再舉投票的時候不能完全否定這個科技投票的方式那當然這個科技投票的方式還是它的問題還是存在比方說同一性怎麼確定有沒有那個駭客或者是科技干擾的問題還有保障秘密或者是自由意志的問題它的問題可能也不會比那個一轉投票所少但是基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7619.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7633.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我認為這個在考慮不在 都要一致考量不過我看一下各個版本尤其是民眾黨版本最後還是選擇一個跟實體投票差不多的就是一轉投票那有關這個一轉投票因為相關的細節又不談了首先第一個就是說要不要把它分開就是說大家認為正義性比較不高的全國性公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7644.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7652.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們先來做 然後選人的往後面 我認為這樣是不是很適合 尤其是如果現在呢 三個月前要公投綁大選的話那你把它做切割的話那一個可以 一個不可以 那你這個很怪啊 對不對這個非常非常奇怪好 然後再來就是這個移轉投票的方式 當然這個民政黨這個我覺得比較像是一個原則性的立法啦比較像原則性的立法基本上呢 它呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7672.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7692.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
要具體適用可能比較困難而且我跟他們就是說完全沒有考慮到電子投票通訊投票的方式然後再來就是我剛才提到你要那個範圍到底是多少而且是說那個在監所的因為我的時間一直亮亮的我會心神不寧所以我趕快做一個總結我覺得我的建議是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7694.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7705.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
應該先通一個原則性的立法啦就是不再急投票 一個原則性你也不要區分選的選事就在這一個然後具體的在連關聯性的就在我們公職的公職的選報 總統副總統選報以及公民投票在針對那個細節的部分去做規定然後再授權給中央選委去做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7713.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7728.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
而且更重要是不能一概去否定電子投票或者是通訊投票的問題我最後的結語就是說還是那一句話無法行駛不是個人的問題而是國家沒有盡到現所應苛於的義務謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請廖藝民教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7748.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7762.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
主席 以在座各位學者專家在座各位先進 大家午安我個人非常榮幸能夠有這個機會受貴會的邀請來參加這個公聽會尤其我更高興能夠成為最後一個發言的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7762.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7778.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
因為各位發言學者能夠對一些比較實務上的細節上的問題就可以忽略不談對於我們討論提綱裡面更精細的一些問題我也可以稍微做簡單簡化的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7778.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7806.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但是對於今天所有的委員跟專家學者們所提出的意見我這邊卻可以用我本來想要發言的這個發言稿裡面的一些意見再把它給更加的理論化或者是方法學化來讓我們大家今天所處理的問題能夠更明確了解這個處理的方法尤其是能夠提供給各位大院各位委員能夠在做立法的選擇的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7807.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7835.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
有一個比較公平的而不是有政黨的這個考量的這樣選擇那麼在我的發言稿裡面有提到說在我們這個主要的問題是在所謂的恐懼與權力之間的徘徊但是依我個人就受政治學跟法學的訓練當我們遇到同當我們遇到人民尤其是弱者的權力的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7836.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7852.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
遇到弱者的權利的時候大概我們沒有辦法讓弱者面對恐懼我們只能由政府跟有力量的人來根據我們的權利來讓弱者沒有恐懼那在這樣的一種理念之下呢我這邊透過立法政策分析的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7854.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7880.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
立法的政策分析的方法將不在籍投票的這個議題分作用一個類型化的方法來做區別因為到目前為止各個政黨的版本對於不在籍投票的各種規定基本上缺乏最基本的或是最符合學理的類型化因為沒有類型化大家就容易在討論的時候公說公有理 婆說婆有理 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7881.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7908.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那我們怎麼講 講到類型化呢主要就是要把不在籍投票的這個不在籍的原因還有不在籍的這個地點也就是空間跟意願這兩個向量來做分別首先從空間的向量來做分別的話不在籍就有分兩種不在籍一種是境內的不在籍一種是境外的不在籍當然境內就是包括颱風金馬境外就是颱風金馬以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7909.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7927.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那麼如果就意願的這個向量來做分類的話就又分作自願的不在籍或非自願的不在籍也就是說你沒辦法去投票是你自己的選擇甚至你是可以選擇回家投票的或者是你根本毫無選擇的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7929.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7952.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那麼就這兩個向量就可以用這個交叉相乘的矩陣就可以得出四種不在籍投票一種是境內的自願不在籍第二種是境內的非自願不在籍第三種是境外的自願不在籍第四種是境外的非自願不在籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7953.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7982.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那麼就在座各位先進的就法律的基本理念以及我們台灣所最重視的人權價值的觀念來說的話大概在處理不在籍投票這方面呢對於境內與境外的考量上面可能在考量的這個重要性還不如自願或非自願也就是說假設在座的各位您或者是您的您所愛人或您的家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7983.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8007.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
他只是因為他不是因為他的選擇他純粹是被強迫了他沒有辦法選擇回去去投票的話這個時候所產生的就已經不只是憲法或選罷法的任何一條任何一條條文的這個違反問題而是一個最基本的邏輯上的問題那就是我有選舉權我卻沒有選舉權這種現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8012.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8026.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我有選舉權我卻沒有選舉權我為什麼沒有選舉權因為我就是被剝奪了選舉權可是你不是有選舉權嗎no no no no no我又被某種機關或我無法選擇或被迫的某種因素剝奪了我的選舉權這時候變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8030.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8059.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我有卻沒有這個是大家覺得知道這必須在我們立法上面無論哪一個黨派的立法委員我相信各位基於人類的自然理智都應該覺得要去解決問題那就是要去處理既有選舉權卻沒有選舉權的這個邏輯矛盾的問題那至於另外一種現象如果是有一種現象是大家都知道就是我們不太需要透過法律去賦予的人權就是既有既要且要 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8060.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8087.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我既要選舉權我還要能夠想在哪裡選就在哪裡選這就叫既要且要我想我不認為立法者有必要透過複雜的法律跟大量的選舉的行政開銷來讓台灣的民眾有某些人既要選舉權又要想要在哪裡選就想要在哪裡選這樣的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8089.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8117.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以這個既要且要的我是反對那如果各位能夠理解我這樣的分類的話我們就想說對於非自願的境內或境外不在籍投票我們該如何處理以及該如何處理能夠循序漸進這個議題就能夠更進一步去處理我個人認為境內的非自願也就是境內的被強迫的不在籍投票的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8118.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8135.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
應該是可以作為這個會期或者是下個會期我們立法院在討論的時候不分黨派的一個共識如何處理境內的非自願的無法投票人他們的問題這個在無論透過科技上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8136.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8153.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
科技上的運用或者是即使是非科技上的多一點的人力成本的運用其實都可以處理好的我相信在座各位先進所提出以及之前面許多行政長官的意見發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8155.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8171.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我認為都對於所謂的境內的非自願的不在籍投票都能夠處理唯一可能有點問題那就是好像票有很多張還有這個比方說如果是個獸型人或是一個癌症患者他到底是要投 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8172.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8187.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
投當地的 醫院當地的還是監所當地的還是在外面當地的這個事情我認為透過立法的協商處理或中選會的行政命令來處理我認為就可以解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8188.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8202.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
至於境外的非自願的不在籍投票我個人認為這種境外的非自願的不在籍投票人數就我個人理解不是很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8203.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8219.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
尤其是都是我們中華民國政府可以掌控的如果無法掌控的或是無法 比方說事先申報或是無法掌控的這個軍工教育人員的話這種境外的非自願的不再投票就當作沒有這些都是境外自願的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8220.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8243.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那對於境外的非自願人員的不再起投票的這個議題透過政府對於自己的駐外的人員或者是派駐外國人員或者是國外人員他們的在外被迫無法返鄉的人員他們的申報或是他們的這個如何處理來解決這個問題應該是可以解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8245.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8266.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那麼最後對於境內或境外的自願的不在籍投票我認為只要非自願的不在籍投票能夠做處理的話慢慢慢慢再來解決自願型的不在籍投票應該在立法的選擇上面跟技術上面會比較簡單一點以上是我個人的心得 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8270.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8291.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好 謝謝那今天我們所有的專家學者都已經第一輪發言結束了那不知道有沒有人要第二輪發言這是羅教授嗎 羅教授好 那請那我們第二輪發言三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8299.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8320.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
因為剛才沒講完我的那個簡報可不可以再回來一下 謝謝這個也是程序更新那個因為剛才那個麥委員有出來講那真的非常的感佩麥委員為什麼呢因為其實麥委員剛才講的那些內容跟那個他們前年提的版本不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8321.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8347.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那為什麼 因為前年版本的話呢其實就是非常的剛硬它只有12條扣掉了三條去頭去尾加持性細則以後十支條紋沒有幾條就有條然後呢所謂的漸進慢慢的來的話呢完全不在這個地方所以這個也更能驗證那個進覆二讀的這個版本非常的不行所以我相信邁委員也回歸了科學理性務實的這樣的態度這個真的是非常的嘉許所以內政委員會真的很棒這是第一點那第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8349.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8377.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我要補充的是剛才有一頁我們有用到是這個是未來式啦但是我們原始的這個東西能撐多久我不知道像我們在大學遇到的是十幾歲跟二十幾歲的人那我們繼續再不做的話其實你很難說服這一些新世代的年輕人所以基本上他們一直在想就是說反正再複雜的事情一支手機就可以搞定的話我們不是要不要做的問題只是說什麼時候做我也真的誠摯呼籲我們行人同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8378.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8404.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們再撐也撐不了多久這五年做不了 十年也要做十年做不了 二十年以後也要做所以我們那個non-tech可能還是要走到low-tech或high-tech這是第二點要補充的再來 我忘了帶了我很想請問楊志傑老師的那個簡報楊志傑老師的簡報有一個韓國的機器有辦法交出來嗎用人家的簡報是蠻低級的事情不過我還是要講一下我有帶 等我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8412.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8430.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為柯大老師會注意這件事情光是你要買這三台機器我們現在有個規定叫做非紅供應鏈所以你不可以買那個中國製造的你用中國製造的話 大家會害怕嘛 對不對好 那非中國製造的非紅供應鏈你光是要買這三台機器 你要買高階 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8432.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8450.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那你知道這一台印表機要多少錢了嗎所以這件事情會涉及到說今天不是說立法萬能主義訂了法條出來又行政立案又做得到不可能啦光是買印表機這件事我跟各位報告我剛才沒有講清楚現在邊概算什麼時候可以買呢明年假設立法院真的乖乖審預算的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8450.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8473.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
1月1號可以買問題是買了以後我還要開標還要大家來投標來驗收嘛我買到硬體機器的時間可能都2027年中了啦然後呢我現在講硬體還沒講軟體咧還沒有講網路咧所以整個建制起來以後的話呢我真的鐵定講不要說2027啦2028年你在地方你在那個全國大選想要用電子投票的可能性都不高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8474.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8500.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以我講的未來是不是這一兩年 三年我只是把時間放長五年 十年 二十年我們都拖不了了甚至我最後一句話還有一分鐘現在大家坐捷運都看得到不管男女老幼或幼稚園大家都畫手機然後大家小孩子不吃飯也是用手機餵他或平板餵他所以我再講一次我們真的撐不了多久了所以這件事情其實回應吳景慶老師是說總是要做的話我們現在其實預作規劃是比較健康理性的方式以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8503.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8515.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
好還有沒有我們的專家學者沒有在那個請問一下那個我們列席的與會機關代表有沒有還要再回應說明都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8518.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8543.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好 其實在座除了選委會之外我覺得只有我親自辦過選舉我以前也是台北縣選委會的總幹事只有我親自有食物剛剛各縣市講的其實都是食物上的問題確實有那些問題我們如何去克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8544.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8560.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
有的東西是花了錢 花更多錢 有更多人可以解決技術上的問題但大家 我要在這邊跟大家報告一下以我選委會總幹事的經驗選舉最重要的是公信力 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8561.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8585.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我還是要強調公信力三個字科技可以解決很多的技術性問題但我們如何在運用科技的時候如何有公信力這我覺得才是最重要的我相信我們所有的基層的選委會的同仁大家拚了幾十年這樣子我們建立起來的公信力大家都不希望這個公信力不見 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8585.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8610.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那今天有很多比如說禁服二讀的法案這個要移轉投票理想都是很好的我只想有一個點大家思考一下未來如果這樣子的話買票是不是很好買還可以指定投開票所投票開票出來給我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8612.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8637.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
變成這樣喔這一點如何去克服我自己想不出來我也不知道各位先進能不能有提供解決的方案不然我可以買票指定你去我指定的投開票所投票我買幾票你給我開幾票出來未來這個問題怎麼辦這個是我們要去思考的所以我覺得理想是要的但我們是不是漸進 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8639.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8662.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
大家漸進從全國統一的然後或對峙我覺得這個大家可能集思廣益要來思考一下這個是我聽了大家有感而發因為我辦過太多次的選舉從總統到村里長的選舉我都辦過這個可能實務上也要跟大家參考一下好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8664.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8690.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料及沒有委員提出書面質詢沒有好除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝各位的參與謝謝大家本次的公聽會到此結束現在散會 |