| IVOD_ID |
17218 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17218 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-22T08:30:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-22T18:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
10:28:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854fbd83b8c694246a819ba3698dbd896ee692bdb9a1e4797776c6e8a64e64dd395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查
(一) 行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(三) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
(四) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(五) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(九) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(十) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十一) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十二) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十三) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。
(十四) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。
(十五) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(十六) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
(十七) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(十八) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十九) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二十) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二十一) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二十二) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)
二、審查
(一) 委員張雅琳等23人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(三) 委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
【第二（一）案，如經復議則不予審查；第二（二）及（三）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【逐條討論】【不詢答】
【115年1月21日及115年1月22日，二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:59 - 18:59:00 |
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| transcript.pyannote[4674].speaker |
SPEAKER_06 |
| transcript.pyannote[4674].start |
37672.97909375 |
| transcript.pyannote[4674].end |
37683.77909375 |
| transcript.pyannote[4675].speaker |
SPEAKER_28 |
| transcript.pyannote[4675].start |
37683.77909375 |
| transcript.pyannote[4675].end |
37683.79596875 |
| transcript.pyannote[4676].speaker |
SPEAKER_28 |
| transcript.pyannote[4676].start |
37684.03221875 |
| transcript.pyannote[4676].end |
37685.53409375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1846.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1872.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
大家早 現在開會本日會議議程為繼續審查身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等37案現在介紹在場委員陳昭芝委員林月璇委員類型官員有包括衛生福利部 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1874.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1889.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
呂健德政務次長社會及家庭組作道軍署長法規會陳信成參事歡迎心理健康師鄭淑欣副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1892.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1899.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
護理及健康照護師曾淑芬專門委員保護服務師張靖倫專門委員醫事師李念慈檢認記證長期照護師徐雨婷科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1917.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1931.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
司法院少年級家事廳郭月明法官法官長 權敘部法官司蕭立榮專門委員考選部綜合規劃司黃宇魯專門委員陳榮坤科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1936.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1963.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
早 早 行政院主計總處 公務預算處 陳淑萍專門委員早 國事普查處 林譽喔 對不起 往下 行政院人事行政總處 綜合規劃處 許孟志專門委員早 主編人力處 季嘉玲專門委員早 考訓培訓考用處 谷新巧科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1967.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1971.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
國土 內政部國土管理署住宅發展署聯委要專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1975.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2000.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
國土管理署建築管理組陳雅芳科長警政署國際組林志俊副組長警政署行政警察局王家華科長交通部公共運輸及監理師廖錦智副司長歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2003.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2029.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
再過來是數位發展部數位政府師王忠彥高級分析師好 早 勞動部勞力發展署陳世昌副署長來 副長早勞動力發展署身心障礙者及特定對象就業主王雅芬副組長早 勞動條件及就業平等師王金榮副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2031.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2037.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
統計處政亞會專門委員歡迎職業安全衛生署張國明組長經濟部經濟法治師林雨欣專門委員綜合規劃師林美鳳科長產業技術師陳俊偉科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2060.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2076.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
標準檢驗局證乃源檢認記證歡迎商業發展署證人君科長由教育部學生事務及特殊教育師許惠清專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2078.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2106.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 歡迎文化部綜合規劃師尿尼尼專門委員是 這個字有點難念人文及出版師卓梅君科長歡迎影視及流行音樂產業局楊秀玉主任秘書歡迎法務部汪南君參事參事長 矯正署劉英寧副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2108.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2136.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
歡迎檢察司房佳妮主任檢察官歡迎金融監督管理委員會銀行局江曉平專門委員 早證券期貨局羅家儀專門委員有嗎 OK拋險局許文君許文君副組長早早 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2137.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2150.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
國家傳播國家通訊傳播委員會李文秀專門委員運動部施應運動師蔡忠義副市長設施規劃師潘婉欣副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2163.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2192.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
原住民原住民族委員會社會福利處洪玲副處長副處長早財政部副稅署李志忠副署長副署長歡迎官務署杜嘉文檢任機合機合早深茶院國家人權委員會陸昆泰陳昆泰秘書林清玄專門委員兩位好 歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2196.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2218.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
再過來我們介紹手藝園及聽達園今天我們有好多的手藝園跟聽達園第一位是蕭匡宇手藝園謝謝邱垂祿手藝園謝謝張俊仁手藝園謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2222.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2240.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
趙昌偉聽打員歡迎范文文聽打員謝謝彭仁義聽打員謝謝黃之琳聽打員歡迎葉惠慈聽打員謝謝陳靜佳聽打員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2248.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2269.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
先做以下說明 為使聽語障朋友們更瞭解本日議案的審查過程 本日會議一樣有手語歡迎原畫面的轉播本委員會昨天已就身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等37案進入諸條審查制第52條經決議 尚未 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2275.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2296.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
審查完略 今日繼續審查 本日將自院版第52-1以下條文及保留條文繼續審查 一樣以行政院提案條次為準進行討論 每條條文先請行政單位說明 接著請委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2302.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2328.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好那我們就開始第五十二之一的審查現在進行本案主條討論現在討論第五十二之一條條文先請衛福部說明行政院版第五十二條之一那主要是歸這次修正的內容主要是針對這個有關通用設計的部分我們這次把通用設計的概念放進到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2330.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2344.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
生存法的修正的內容裡面來那這個部分的話目前跟各委員的版本相對照的結果大概主要在敘寫方式上面有些不太一樣的地方包括有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2345.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2373.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
范雲委員的版本那范雲委員主要是針對第52條之一最後一項授權的部分在做這一類這個通通設計的有關獎勵或者產品開發的時候那希望是在這個要求明定要有這個身心障礙者能夠從設計到後續維護時的測試都要能夠要邀請身心障礙者的參與那這個部分的話我們考量是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2375.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2400.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
由於這個辦法的規定其實是針對產品的設計開發的這個主要是開發者的部分那開發者在開發維護過程中他去找是不是能夠邀請到這個身心障礙者的話其實這個未來其實是在開發開發當時開發商要考慮到未來在是不是能夠有更好的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2401.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2418.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有更多人願意使用的時候這個是開發商需要去注意的事情所以我們覺得這個是開發商通常都會做的部分我們建議這個部分文字就不一定需要再把它放到條文裡面來那另外林玉琴委員的版本裡面也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2420.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2448.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個它有參照到現行條文除了把行政院版的把這個通用設計的概念放進來之外那同時也加上了要這個依照無障礙的國家無障礙的相關的國家制定的無障礙標準或者無障礙規範來設計相關的這個各類的設備交通物理環境等等相關的各類的設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2451.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2470.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那由於考慮到這一次在52條之一我們大概優先考慮的是先把通用設計的概念去把它引進來那另外在本條第一項裡面這些這類的設施或者是服務其中在公共建築物的部分然後交通設施或者是資訊的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2471.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2493.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
現在分別在現行條文的57條53條52條之二大概都有針對這些一些特定的領域有一些無障礙的要求或者是規範那我們是建議說在條文的結構上面將來52條之一就比較聚焦在有關通用設計的部分讓它變成一個在各種各類的設施鼓勵這些廠商能夠有一個更寬廣的一個設計然後跟後面相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2500.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2524.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
公共建築交通資訊等等無障礙者就變成一個區別的一個規範大概用這樣的架構來做條文設計的架構那我們建議是不是有可能就依這個行政院建議版本的這個條文來通過那另外附帶報告張雅玲委員也有一個修正動議的版本那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2527.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2536.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
張委員的版本主要是在也是在第一項的部分他希望加入身心障礙者權利公約的可及性原則這個確實是這個條文設計本來就是從這樣的一個概念來出發 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2544.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2560.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
尤其是在本條這個本法這次第一條修正的時候就已經通案性的納入了就是整部法律大概就是要依照身心障礙者權利公約的一個原則來下去那包括裡面的各色各樣的原則大家都希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2561.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2588.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
貫穿在這個整部法律裡面所以我們建議這個部分的文字似乎不用可以不用在這邊再重新再額外的再重複來做一次規範那所以我們以上我們建議是不是可以照行政院版本來做一個處理 以上建議好謝謝署長的說明那在52條之一有柯天偉委員的提案也有劉建國委員的提案有何欣淳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2589.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2599.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
還有陳慶輝委員的提案另外也有立法委員跟王玉民委員的提案另外也有林玉琴還有萬美玲委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2601.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2620.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那另外也有民眾黨黨團的提案另外也有幻影委員跟李坤村委員的提案還有郭育群蘇巧慧委員還有張雅玲委員的提案跟修正動議那好看大家有什麼意見那我們先請那個葉群委員然後再來是廖委員來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2622.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2648.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 等一下是不是可以請我們的政府部門做一下說明因為我原本修正的理由是昨天本來就在討論到52條的時候我本來是希望事實上是我們的第一項的第三款是改成資訊及通訊傳播那當初考慮的事實上還是考慮是公共的所以後來我覺得那好 那你整個事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2648.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2663.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你的通訊通訊傳播是以公共為主事實上是連結的像網路電信這些所以有些東西我就覺得好那沒有辦法列上去可是一樣的52條之2那上修正理由也是跟52條的一樣也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2667.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2681.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個資訊跟通訊的傳播的網路有沒有應該要有無障礙的一些環境的規定所以第一項修正是那個網站地明確區分為對外的網站內部公務體系跟行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2681.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2707.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
版的應用的程式都需要有一個具備無障礙環境的認證所以等一下請你們說明是這樣執行有困難嗎他第二項事實上是也是希望非政府機構也需要提供無障礙的資訊服務要求一定規模的意願也不是說全部都要求一定規模的意願和金融機構跟網路購物服務的時候提供業者的網站也是需要有具備無障礙環境的一個認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2709.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2731.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
畢竟我們已經走到科技的時代數位化的時代的時候我們應該讓我們的身心障礙朋友也因為面對到這樣子的一個整體的環境能夠無障礙來做使用那我針對第三項一樣也是以授權目的事業主管機關來制定網站系統城市的無障礙環境的認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2733.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2747.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以是不是可以請我們的政府部門剛才講只是在講說我們有讓列然後建議是要採院班可是沒有說明說我們這樣子的話到底是執行上有困難還是有什麼樣的特別的考量以上好這請廖委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2756.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2783.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
謝謝主席這部分我有看到這個羅廷偉委員的提案第52條之一那前面都跟這個行政院版差不多但是他第二項有加一個各級主管機關及目的事業主管應該分別訂定同用設計推廣及實施計畫並編列預算之印那所以這個部分我看到我是覺得說應該要支持他的版本因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2785.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2812.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我覺得也就是課與各級的主管機關及目的事業主管機關應以通用設計原則去規劃各項軟硬體設施但為了確保各級機關都要落實這個條款他這裡加的第二項就是說要法條中明定要編列預算之印那我想因為有預算才有可能真正的落實不然後面沒有相對的罰則那這一條會不會就只是一個訓示規定也就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2813.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2836.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你們要做但是並沒有辦法落實這樣好謝謝我們先請署長這邊回應有關於是否針對於羅天偉委員針對預算編列的部分或那剛剛月前委員也有相關的問題請一邊回答針對我們廖昭偉的這個這個垂詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2839.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2863.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那我們是建議是因為這個部分在這個現在在考慮到不管是交通或者是資訊或者等等各個部分那如果我們會建議的是說因為所謂的通用設計它其實會落在這個大的領域裡面可能會有不同的項目來操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2864.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2882.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們現在我們很誠實的說我們不確定個別的目的事業主管機關他在每年或者分年他在所謂的如果要訂計畫的話是不是有辦法去有在這個領域裡面有明確的項目去訂計畫就去做什麼樣的一個去鼓勵或者去推動這一類的設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2884.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2903.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但是這個但是我們完全支持就是說這個各目的事業主管機關他是應該在這樣的一個方向底下一步一步的去往前一步一步的來推動所以我們建議是不是如果這個召委這邊覺得可行的話我們建議這個條文也許不是用計畫的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2904.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2927.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我們是不是可以透過我們這邊來試著你一個附帶決議的內容就是要求各個目的事業主管機關要去訂定這個推廣或者是獎勵的措施逐年來去做來鼓勵做這樣的一個動作但是因為計畫的話其實通常在行政部門訂計畫它需要一個比較明確的一個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2928.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2947.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
但是在這個各個大的領域裡面是不是能夠馬上去寫的出來這點我們可能要聽一下各個部會的意見但是如果說用透過一個要求附帶決議要求各個目的世界主管各級主管機關目的世界主管機關去訂定通通設計推廣或者獎勵的一些推動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2949.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2957.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
要去推動這樣的事項是不是可以容許我們朝這個方向來設計一個附帶決議那如果可以的話我們嘗試的來寫一個然後給委員這邊來過目 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2961.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2989.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那剛才另外針對剛才月行委員這邊所垂詢的各目的事業主管機關部分是不是我們可以主席這邊是不是可以容許我們請相關的部會來做一個說明那但是各部會說明之前我可能稍微補充一下那這一次行政院版52條之一這個訂定的時候某個角度其實是把現行條文的這個各條文的結構稍微有一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2990.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3009.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
重新的去把它重塑了一下現行的52條之一它基本上是比較定位在各個領域針對無障礙的一個總體性的類似總則的條文52條之一的第一項比較有這樣子的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3012.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3039.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
考慮到這個通用設計是未來整個主流的趨勢的時候所以我們這次修正的時候是把通用設計的這樣的一個概念先放到52條之一來那因為它原來是一個52條之一它基本上是一個比較偏向總則性的概念所以現在各個部門要去做的無障礙現行的無障礙的細節的部分各個的條文現在在現行的條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3039.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3064.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
其實有些條文等一下也會修到包括52-1 53-57等等大概五障礙條文 個別部門的五障礙條文現在都還存在所以我們是覺得在整個條文設計的構想上面有一點點調整所以我們在這一次修正條文裡面就52條之一我們就把這個概念重新做了一個處理這邊也跟委員做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3066.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3095.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好 針對這樣的說明如果暫時沒有意見我們請王委員好 謝謝主席我想針對這個52條之一我覺得是一個很重要的條文這個通用設計我想現在是全球的一個趨勢我想不只是為了身心障礙者我們已經是超高齡社會所以如果我們事實上這個你們自己在修法說明裡面有分就是公司部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3096.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3114.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
其實是不一樣的強度是不一樣公部門別忘了你們前面是用應應以通用設計為原則而且你在提案說明裡面也提到了通用設計是義務就主管機關來講這是義務那如果是義務也是責任的話那的確就應該要落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3116.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3137.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
而且公部門則無旁貸就是要做最好的示範那私部門當然才是用獎勵所以在這樣的原則底下我認為這個羅庭月委員他提出來的這一個我覺得是一個強度再更高一點就是你既然都寫到因然後也覺得這個是各主管機關必須去做的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3137.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3160.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那當然各單位如果這是你要做的事情當然你就會有在你推行的每一年的年度計劃裡面你應該是有一個這樣的一個計劃跟預算才會落實嘛要不然它很容易就淪為是一個宣示性的更何況這個如果我們法條是這樣子訂那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3163.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3185.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
你自己還要去針對私利的你還要去獎勵人家結果你自己什麼沒有率先做示範然後鼓勵民間做我覺得這個對於推動來講這個法條就會變得比較空泛而欠缺一個強度所以我認為是羅勤惠委員他提的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3187.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3204.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
各部會其實也可以講一講大家的意見跟看法既然法條裡面這是你的義務是應該要去做的事情那列出計畫跟預算我個人覺得不會很困難除非你根本就沒有在做那如果有在做就是說整個交通部我針對今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3205.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3234.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我的整個通用設計的落實我可能會展現在哪些面向然後因著這樣子我可能要多少錢這很困難我個人不認為但只是有沒有在做所以但是這一個條文我個人認為還是蠻重要的所以是不是我們可以請各部會今天也各部會都來了各部會必須落實52條之一就是你的公共建築公共設施場所無災害交通等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3234.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3243.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
你都應該要去規劃的我希望各部會都講一下有沒有困難如果沒有困難我個人認為應該要入法 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3244.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3268.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好謝謝王委員的意見那等下麻煩各部會分別回應那我們先請有請委員發言剛才我們的署長講的那我原來同意但是不是可以請你們你附帶決議的文字給我們好謝謝是好那麻煩各部會依照剛剛委員的意見發表回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3271.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3296.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
需要足以點名嗎還是要各個單位自行來做說明好那是不是就請署長或者是各個單位包括我們在現場有心理健康師還有護理健康照護師保護師醫師是 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3304.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3304.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
來 請還有長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3310.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3338.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
跟各位報告這個有關通用設計例如說像現在這個以醫療機構來講那有的機構現在洗手台通常會針對身心障礙者或者是針對比較小朋友他的檯面會設計不同的高低那這個廁所的洗手台會設計不同的高低那麼現在有一些通用設計的他就不會做他就不用做兩套 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3339.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3359.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
而是它的有的洗手台的高低它本身就是一個可調動式的或者是它的這個像水龍頭的部分它就是不管一般的民眾或者小朋友它只要用波動式的那這個大家都可以使用其實它就是它其實就是表這個就是在這個通風設計概念上面的一些使用的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3360.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3388.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那在這個部分其實在包括像交通像資訊或者像通訊的部分或者網路平台部分大概都有一些可以使用的方式那我是不是可以那是不是分別請接下來有關的一些應用的部分是不是可以請這個有關像交通或者像住宅或者是這個我們所有抒發部的部分可以來幫可以來做一些說明以上好那先請交通部的同仁廖副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3390.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3396.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
唉用一下麥克風誰第一下麥克風到副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3400.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3429.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好 交通部這邊跟各位委員報告尤其是在交通的部分其實部裡面很早就在做通用設計還有無障礙的一些推動的一些工作包括將車站過車輛那其實因為就如同剛剛署長所說的這些通用的東西因為是所有的人所以我們在如果說要訂定一個實施計畫或者是要編列預算的時候我們很難去做切出來說哪些東西是 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3430.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3447.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
專門for無障礙因為這個預算我們其實比如我們在做最簡單講做網頁設計我們要改就一次改完我們不會說這個部分是for通用設計所以他的預算經費是另外拉出來去編列因為我們是全部一起來做那車輛的改或者車站建築 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3449.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3465.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
的一個設計的時候也是就一體就做完了所以我們現在要的是說只要我們把規定無障礙的比如無障礙的一些建築規定或者我的車輛的規定或網頁的規定做好那在發報的時候直接就請廠商全部做完 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3466.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3481.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
所以在預算如果說要特別拉出來寫可能會另外就變成說在填列的時候會有一個實務上會有一個這樣的困難所以我們是建議還是回到院版的規定那把無障礙的相關的或通用設計的規定訂好讓大家去follow就可以了這是交通部的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3482.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3498.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好 謝謝等一下我可以先追問一下嗎那所以交通部的意見是你們每一項計畫都融入了通用設計的概念嗎你這種說法是你每一項其實都這樣子做所以不需要再提出來車輛或車站其實現在像營建署那邊對於無障礙設施那個部分其實現在都有規範了 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3503.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3527.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們車輛也有規範了那網頁部分部裡面其實很早以前就依照那個無障礙網頁的規定要求我們所有單位要依照網頁的一些要取得兩個A或三個A的一個一個標章所以這部分其實都很早就已經在處理這個作為主管機關是嗎衛福部你們的觀察各機關都落實這麼好那我們就不用修法大家做得這麼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3529.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3548.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個其實各部會現在是一步一步的都有在推動但是這個不管是在從無障礙等一下要討論的無障礙的條文或者是通用設計的部分其實隨著這個技術的進步其實大概都有一些新的方式可以在有更方便的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3548.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3573.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那這個本條的這樣的一個設計其實就是讓不管是各部會跟包括衛福部在內我們大概都可以隨時根據這樣的條文的一個概念只要有新的技術或者有新的方法可以來應用的時候在使用上面我們都可以持續的透過這樣的條文這樣的一個觀念來繼續讓包括身上者在內所有的使用者能夠更方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3574.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3594.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那我可以請教一下各部會在落實這件事情誰去考核督導他們做到多少有人在做這件事嗎看起來沒有就是各部會反正條文就這樣寫然後大家去做做多少也沒有計劃也沒有預算也沒有辦法監督也不知道執行多少現在是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3597.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3620.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
有關在這個通用設計的部分那這次確實是第一次訂到法律裡面來所以以往如果我們會有需要就這個部分來做一些了解的話我們大概都只能個別的在請各部會就現有已經做到跟通用設計有關係的部分去提供給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3621.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3647.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但是在這一次定到法律條文裡面以後其實後續在CRPD每四年一輪的國家報告審查之後我們在國家報告裡面一定就會把這樣的一個內容在國家報告來做一個呈現那我們也會在國家報告裡面對於相關需要填報的事項也會請各部會一起來配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3648.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3672.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那如果按照剛剛交通部的說法他沒有特定的計劃也沒有特定的預算他就是這樣子做那請問在國家審查報告的時候他們提出來的報告各部會是怎麼提出來用想像的嗎就你平常你沒有編列一個計劃你沒有一個督導跟考核你最後最終你的成果產出你是是用用想的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3673.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3697.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
就是說通常在政府機關部門你是因為編定了計畫編定了預算你去執行所以當你在寫成果的時候我就是這麼清楚因為我的計畫裡面我就在你我今年有哪幾項的比如說以交通部來講我今年有哪幾項的這一個交通設施或者是車輛或者是新的東西然後我有融入通用設計的概念我因為這個設計我可以花了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3698.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3722.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這樣才會有成果出來啊那如果按照剛剛交通部的說法這無從檢驗就是因為你本來你就沒有編啊所以我還是覺得羅清惠委員講的這個部分其實是蠻有道理的你如果各部會你自己根本沒有一個計畫在掌控的話請問你最終的成果是怎麼出來拼湊的或是用想的或是寫作文就是說有有有這個也有那個也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3723.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3740.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我覺得政府部門不是這樣子嗎就是大家都是按計劃行事嘛那你這邊既然入母法那各部會又不要有一個計劃在在執行然後你國家審查報告要報告出來你不覺得這有一點點荒謬嗎這不夠嚴謹吧對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3745.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3771.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
跟委員報告其實我們在這個剛才在跟委員報告這個考慮說是不是用一個附帶決議的部分其實在各部會能夠去做一個這個往前進不管是推廣或者相關的計畫的部分這個部分我們都支持所以如果是從這樣的角度來思考的話我們做這樣的一個建議給委員參考就是以羅廷為委員的版本來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3772.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3796.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就是我們把這個這個樓庭委員版本的第二項拉進來那但是因為這個只要有定計畫通常大概都會附帶要有考慮要相對應的預算但是最後一句話這個我們是不是這個並編列預算之印的這幾個字我們是不是容許一個考慮到像剛才交通部所提到的這個因為在編列在內容上面可能比較沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3796.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3816.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
沒有辦法那麼精準的去呈現所以我們是不是可以就以羅廷惠委員版本的這個第二項但是就只引用到這個通用設計推廣及實施計畫就直接據點是不是可以這樣子來處理跟我們報告好謝謝那我們先 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3818.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3837.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對不起 我先稍微確認一下因為剛剛王委員所提的有關於羅廷偉委員的第二項經過調理調整以後目前王委員是可以認同這樣的第二項的嗎OK 那現在要解釋是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3839.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3847.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
請大家看螢幕也確定一下再過來我們請趙執委員發言再過來再請萬老師郭委員謝謝主席我們剛剛在討論這個過程雖然說交通部所有整個設計規劃是一致性的但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3858.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3866.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
育民委員他也懷疑說過成效有沒有查核監督等等這個問題在什麼地方我想請署長參考因為民間團體他們的反應是這樣開發商他們在做開發的過程當中從來不曾找障礙團體來做諮商 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3882.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3903.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
就是说无论你源头在规划上有没有写这个部分那事实上你在开发的过程你要做的好做的实用让他们能够真的去用而不是花了钱好像我明白我们好像有这个规范但是并没有从来没有找当事的团体大家讨论一下我们这样设计是不是适用合不合用好不好用 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3904.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3929.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以這個關鍵就在這個地方這個是民團一直在反映的所以請問署長這樣的其實這個是很重要的已經錢花下去了要去做那你要怎麼把這個部分納入這個應該在你的規範或是什麼地方應該是有可以著手的地方對不對署長這個很重要嘛錢花了如果不好用不能用的話那就一場空啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3932.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3942.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們今天要修法就是要真的要回到這個本身嘛身障者本身的需求這是一切今天修法的核心署長這個部分再麻煩你回應謝謝再過來請郭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3945.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3967.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好這一條前面第一項跟第二項我沒有沒有修正但是到我是增訂這個第三項就是明定這個公共建築物公共設施然後交通運輸資訊通訊網路平台要建立定期的維護機制而且要邀請身心障礙者參與就是他們的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3968.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3980.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
還有這個後續的維護的測試這個是我要求的我想這個剛剛其實趙志偉也特別講到就是說我們要邀請這些所謂真正使用者那要站在他們的立場讓他們實際的參與這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3983.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4005.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那另外我有特別在增訂就是在這個保障視覺障礙者的這個資訊的禁用權那就是要明定這個出版出版品不得以這個版權保護為由拒絕這個提供或者是販售電子無障礙格式的一個出版品落實身心障礙者他們的這個權利還有這個公約的一個精神以上請署長這邊說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4016.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4035.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
回應兩位委員的垂詢的事項這個在商品的設計的部分然後這個有關便利我們身心障礙者使用的產品的部分那這個有關產品的設計或者在開發的輔導部分這個部分當然同時是涉及到經濟部的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4036.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4063.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那這個一個產品要好用確實如同委員所提示的這個一定是從源頭開始的時候就是要從設計者使用的角度來做出發來做設計所以怎麼樣在一開始去納入身心障礙者使用上的需求那這個如果不貼近需求的時候其實對於一個如果是產品如果是產品的角度來講這個產品將來就開發出來就是沒有人用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4063.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4088.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好那但是在公部門的這邊的設計的使用的時候其實他會反映出來他在一開始的時候他則是反映出來在一開始的設計甚至包括可能的這個不管是法規或者政策或者是規定那這個部分的話其實在我們前一次審查的時候在第10條這個本法的第10條之一的修正草案裡面其實有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4088.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4104.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有一個有關聯的條文就是不管是機關構學校事業法人或團體在訂定只要對身心障礙者有權益有相關的政策法規規章的時候就必須要提供身心障礙者可禁用的資訊跟表示意見的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4106.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4133.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以在這一類那尤其是像這種公共設施的公共設施使用的時候它其實是可以也已經可以依照就是可以依照第十條之一這樣的一個概念來徵詢使用者對於未來在設計或者是設計細節上面怎麼樣來貼近身心障礙者的需求這個部分其實現在是有條文可以的也可以有條文來做一個相關的引用以上好 蕭志偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4136.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4153.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
延續書長說這個在有相關的規範就是供各機關各位來參考但是我現在的重點是當你們發包或做任何的發出去各種工程的時候那製造商實際上怎麼來做你是發到這個規格裡面嗎發包的規格裡嗎然後會有一驗收嗎會有檢驗嗎這個過程呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4161.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4176.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個過程你這個那個條文是遙不可及那個我有規範但是結果呢那這個我剛剛提的你想你也了解就是身上的他們直接表達的他們過去覺得他們都沒有機會參與那你怎麼保證就是說這個製造商或服務提供者在產品開發的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4184.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4205.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
是有經過這麼一段路經過這樣子的一個徵詢將來使用者的一個需求的徵詢你們要怎麼來保障這件事情因為這是個合理的一個要求非常合理公委報告這一次在現行條文裡面這次是沒有修正到就是本條的第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4206.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4235.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
其實本來現行的問題有要求這個在訂定國家這個在它是要去訂定相關無障礙設計的規範或者是標準那這一類的標準或者標章的時候那這一類的像訂定這一類的一個基本的基本規定的時候它就是要回頭要去適用我們剛才提到的本法的第十條之一它就是在訂定的時候過程這個規章訂定的過程就要有身心障礙者的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4236.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4260.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那當然這個個別的工程或者是個別的產品委員關心的在這一段我是不是可以這邊如果有像建築的部分跟產品開發的部分我是不是可以請這個有關經濟部或者是內政部的長官那就現行的做法上面怎麼樣來融入這個身心障礙者的意見來跟委員做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4262.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4273.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好那是不是先請內政部國土管理署那個連專門委員先做進一步說明有關於通用設計的部分主席各位委員大家早安關於那個住宅我想因為來自住宅部門所以先對於住宅部門的部分先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4292.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4306.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那因為現在政府政策的部分正在推廣社會住宅所以其實社會住宅他本身原先引用的概念是我們原先建築管理部門裡面的一個無障礙設計的一個空間規劃還有一些標準跟規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4307.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4335.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那大概近期我們有把通用設計融入到社會住宅的一個規劃上面那他的核心理念其實主要是在處理權齡友善跟居住平權這樣子的一個事情那他承載的其實是不同的族群其實在住宅法裡面本身有提到住宅法第三條有提到各類的社會跟經濟的一個弱勢所以其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4336.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4352.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
對於身心障礙者他在這樣子的一個社會住宅的一個生活領域當中其實他也是一個被照顧的對象那其實我們在這個通常設計的核心的其他有幾個原則第一個是公平使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4353.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4379.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
彈性使用簡易直覺然後明顯資訊還有一些容許錯誤還有省力使用跟空間尺寸上的一些規劃所以其實在整個社會住宅的一個規劃設計上面其實確實已經將通用設計在政策的一個規劃甚至於是到細部的一個規劃過程當中其實都已經融入 以上報告好謝謝那經濟部有補充嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4382.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4385.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
經濟部語心專門委員我們請標準聚合同仁說明一下請 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4399.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4413.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
跟各位委員報告那誠如剛剛署長所說的其實在原本既定的條文裡面當然是比較聚焦在無障礙的產品設計等方面那這部分的話在國家標準制定部分我們原本依照我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4414.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4436.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
標準法跟國家標準制定辦法的流程他為了確保所訂出來的標準能夠真正切合尤其所謂需求者的那個實際的需要所以我們在標準制定過程當中不管是徵求意見或技術內容的審查都會充分邀請相關利害相關者參與確保這個內容未來的那個可用性 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4436.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4457.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那在產品的部分的話在既有條文原本我們就已經有針對無障礙的產品這個部分有一個訂定的一個獎勵辦法來作為這個所謂讓市售產品及新設計的這個所謂的輔具的相關的用品能夠符合所謂通用設計的一個要求大概是這樣補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4460.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4475.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好謝謝時間已經討論很多了所以趙思維你還有需要再進一步我覺得現在答的都不是我我相信郭委員的我們要的答案因為現在你的規範都有我們也這樣要求那事實上很多研究計畫到最後我想醫學方面也是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4476.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4500.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
到最後那個針對那個研究計劃本身你是不是有找真的有一些所謂這個焦點團體啦等等來處理那用那個規範到落實那個是一個很長的一段距離啊那個整個這個工程可能搞不好是幾年後那你有規範不表示最後那個受用者是使用者是受用的所以署長我的重點其實剛才說的都知道也能說剛才說的好像不一樣嘛就是說為在真正在施作的時候這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4506.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4534.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
你們不能在招標的規範裡面規範說一定要有一個過程嘛要有一個他們參與的過程嘛你老是說高高的很遠遠的地方有一個規範那我們按照這個規範去做但是做出來的東西對不對做出來的東西跟實際上要用的時候它還是有落差所以才會有身上的他們表達說就是一直都沒有機會來參與或不好用署長你知道我的意思是在這個層次不是在很高的層次就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4535.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4554.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
了解不過就是條文裡面要落實這個可能我們還要再看有什麼方式那針對那個郭委員其實我剛剛有特別提到就是說這個維護的一個機制啦就是事後是不是要邀請這個身心障礙者他們這個不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4555.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4577.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
從剛剛其實講到這個前端的一個設計到後續維護的時候的一個測試這個部分其實也應該也要有定期的這個維護的測試的這樣子的一個機制才對啊然後就是在測試的這段時間要邀請這個身心障礙者他們自己本身來做這樣子的一個使用來看這樣子的設施或者是這樣的設備是不是有符合他們的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4578.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4591.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我的重點是後端因為我有特別增訂這個定期後續的這個測試維護的一個部分這個我想是不是也可以把它納入插個嘴驗收的時候也要驗收測試的時候要使用者 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4594.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4608.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
剛剛蘇珊有提到本來說要有一個附帶決議如果把這些訴求放在附帶決議裡面做完整說明的話請大家再參考附帶決議內容不曉得大家有沒有意見張亞靈 張委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4616.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4642.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
謝謝主席那在52條之一的部分我想要提出一個想法來跟衛夫婦請教一下就是說我們現在是寫通用設計但是其實因為我過去在關注我們國家的特色各縣市的一些特色公園因為其實當你用通用設計因為現在這個場域裡面可能也會包含到這些特色公園當你用通用設計的時候其實你會忽略掉兒童身心發展在不同階段的時候他所需要的一個能力也就是說如果通用設計的話輪椅的孩子可以坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4643.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4670.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
嬰兒可以做可是當我們的大年五六年五六歲以上的孩子他需要發展他的體能的時候他沒有辦法盪起一個大型的通用設計的鞦韆所以過去我們在遊戲場都會講一個可及性的部分所以是不是在這個地方可以把通用設計改成醫生心愛者權利公約的可及性的原則來規劃我們的公共建築物或是公共設施與這個活動場所所以是想要跟衛福部請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4671.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4700.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
是 來 署長請就是針對張雷委員希望把這個通用設計原則的部分再做一點延伸來 請有關張雷委員的意見的部分這個在CRPD公約架構底下有關可及性的部分它其實是比較偏向在這個有關無障礙設計的概念底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4701.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4725.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那無障礙和通用設計它其實是這兩個是並列的它基本上這兩個是不完全化等號的概念它中間有相通的地方也有不太一樣的地方那這個在無障礙設計的部分那這個確實在線型條文的第二項的部分有些無障礙的規範其實就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4725.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4750.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
就會進去那也會有這個在無障礙的架構底下其實也會包括委員所提示的有關這樣可及性的概念所以是不是需要把在這個在單獨要去標註出來我們看看在條文哪裡這個我們再來檢討一下看看是不是文字在哪裡有沒有辦法放然後呢另外這個剛才招致委員這邊所提到的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4752.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4781.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
有關在從測試到維護階段讓這個身心障礙者參與的部分我想是不是因為這個是法律條文我們建議是不是這個文字的部分就是我們稍微把它簡化一下就是從設計到使用也許我們看能不能加維護就是要納入這個身心障礙者的參與的意見這樣從這樣的角度我們從文字再去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4781.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4795.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
稍微做一個整理讓它稍微精簡一點是不是有這樣的一個可行你應該寫入主文的意思嘛是但是我們條文稍微精簡我們看一下先保留我們先保留我們把條文做一個詳細做一個精簡是不是可行好 那張委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4797.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4817.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好抱歉就是說因為其實我知道混集性跟通用原則上面是有一點點相同有些不太同的地方可是因為今天我的擔心就是說當你全部用通用設計的時候因為現在講的工作場所裡面可能也包含了兒童遊戲場那這個兒童遊戲場裡面如果都用通用設計的話其實勢必上會犧牲上一些特殊兒童以及我們大齡兒童的一個遊戲的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4818.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4836.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以呢我才想要跟就是我們是不是可以在這個部分去做一個調整因為自己過去在遊戲場裡面也有人提到就是用通用設計來設計整個遊戲場那當時在許多的討論之下大家是覺得這會有問題所以我才擔心是說如果我們今天就直接寫通用設計的時候會不會在兒童遊戲場受到了影響這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4838.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4863.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個在兒童遊戲場規範的部分其實現在遊具的部分現在是有國家標準這個委員這邊已經推動了很久那在具體操作的部分的話其實通用設計的概念其實它一定的程度它其實也是要讓這個它其實是一個比較接近一個連級的概念讓最多的使用者都能夠一起來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4864.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4883.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那大概是從這樣的角度從頭設計其實是有這樣的一個意涵在那當然在設計的時候這個因為兒童的發展的這個過程的階段性的關係有一些事實上確實是他會有一定的局限那這個部分的話我想是不是可以讓我們來看看就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4890.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4912.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
明確的是針對像兒童遊戲場的這個部分的話是不是可以我們用一個附帶決議的方式就兒童遊戲場的部分它的可及性跟針對一些比較大齡的兒童在使用這個部分要去做特別的注意的部分我們研擬一個附帶決議然後來做相關的處理是不是有這樣子的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4913.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4942.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我想就是說我當然照有國家安全標準這些都有相關的一些標準來去約束我們所有的遊戲場的一些安全性的部分但是我講的通用設計的概念最主要是因為大家在開始做共榮遊戲場的時候就有提到是不是用通用設計因為它可以像一個鞦韆它可能可以滿足低齡的孩子大家會認為這可以滿足低齡的孩子也可以滿足這種所謂的身障的孩子或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4943.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4971.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那個上班上班生肢體軀幹比較弱的能力比較弱的孩子那當然大家也會覺得說大齡的孩子也可以做啊五六年五六歲的孩子也可以做小學生都可以做這不是一個最好的設計嗎如果用通用設計的概念來講似乎是說得通的但是我想從兒童身心發展來說到他五六歲的時候他會非常需要靠自己的能力來去盪起一個鞦韆可是通用設計要當第一個高度也不夠第二個量體也太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4971.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4991.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以我才會有這個擔心因為現在把它放進去的時候會不會有造成兒童遊戲設施的一個影響所以最主要是我對於通用設計這四個字會有擔心過度的延伸未來在實作的時候會有過度的延伸所以今天到底這文字要怎麼放其實我沒有特別的怎麼說特別的堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4992.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5020.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好 但是我是希望說 在怎麼樣子的原則保障之下 兒童遊戲的這些權利上面 不同年紀的孩子的需要不會被因此而忽略或者是被侵犯這樣子好 謝謝各位委員都有充分的把意見反映出來那我們這一條就先請保留那有關你附帶決議的部分 再麻煩主管機關這邊 理定好以後 請各位委員來做審視好 那我們就往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5022.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5042.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
到五十二條之二那五十二條之二有包括羅廷偉委員 廖偉強委員 王一鳴委員的提案 還有郭益勤委員萬美玲委員 林耀勤委員 李坤城委員以及蘇喬惠委員的一些相關的修正內容 那請署長先跟他做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5044.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5071.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
行政院版第52條之案主要是這一次在針對包括從現行的政府機關購物學校的網站要通過相關的無障礙認證標章之外那這次我們把使用的範圍做了一個擴大包括到公營事業及政府捐助的財團法人以除了包括他的網站之外以及他的這個行動化應用軟體就是APP |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5072.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5096.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那都需要經過這樣的一個檢測那另外呢對於一定規模以上的醫院金融機構也我們也拉進到規範裡面來那這個各個委員的提案的版本總體上來說大概在擴大範圍的對象上面基本上絕大多數的委員的部分都跟行政院的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5096.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5118.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
有相近的地方那各委員的提案內容中那有些委員的提案大概會有更擴大到像運輸 通訊傳播 文化創意等等各個相關的產業的部分那這個部分的話這個由於這一個條文涉及到對於個別的一個行業的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5119.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5139.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他的是不是能夠做到的能力跟衝擊跟影響那我們是建議這個由於考慮到現在在數位發展部已經有一個普及與深化政府網站與行動化應用軟體無障礙設計的一個行動方案來逐步的來做推廣那這個部分的話對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5142.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5164.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
政府部門的比較我們會盡力這個將來規定之後就一定要來推動那對於這個民間非公部門的這些行業的話可能還是要徵詢一下這個相關部會的所了解他們主管的行業裡面是不是可以能夠適用到推動到這樣子的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5166.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5183.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
另外這個委員版的版本裡面有些是提到像公法人團體的部分這個在文字上面我們建議如果是公法人的話我們可能就建議這個文字上面可能我們就配合再來做一些整理那以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5185.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5210.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
總體來說我們會建議這個是不是在行業擴大的部分可能要看一下各署管部會對於這個包括像金融服務業大眾運輸業通訊傳播事業文化創意產業醫療業網路服務業是不是都能夠完全通過所謂的這個無障礙網站的無障礙檢測包括他的APP那這邊那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5212.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5232.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
也有要求就是事業單位的這個對於提供可用於電腦或行動裝置平台公共使用的軟體應用程式也必須要能夠符合那這個部分可能都需要徵詢一下這個相關我們部會的目前在執行上面對於各個行業他所了解的狀況 以上好 謝謝 經理委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5236.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5251.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這邊我代表羅廷偉委員廖瑋祥委員還有王育民委員還有我自己有想要跟主管機關詢問的幾點那可能跟衛福部 速發部 經濟部都有相關那我就一一的列出 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5253.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5271.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那52-2條呢這個主要是要落實CRPD第9條無障礙還有第21條資訊禁用權的保障並且接軌歐盟的歐洲無障礙法等等國際數位人權標準那我們要肯定行政院版本這次把行動化應用軟體納入是一個進步的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5272.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5289.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但是第一項本文中要求應通過無障礙檢測並取得認證標章這句話雖然是原條文但是我想要跟速發部速發部確認說現在的網站還有APP是不是已經有要求你們發布的這個網站無障礙規範2.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5291.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5316.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
一版还有行动化应用软体无障碍检测指引预计多久可以让第一项的单位都可以符合另外很多我们身上的朋友关心的是在自助服务终端设备比如说ATM第二个要请教经济部现在全国的ATM是不是有要求符合CNS1552公共资讯服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5317.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5346.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
無障礙設施的規範那同樣的問題這個預計什麼時候所有的ATM都可以符合再來這個政府機關內部國發會2017年有頒布政府機關公務系統無障礙指引經濟部有訂定CNS15321無障礙資訊以及通訊科技指引請問國發會還有人事行政總處是不是現在所有的公務機關都有符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5347.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5364.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
第一段是要問那個進度然後第二段我是想問衛福部因為這裡面你們有列到說公部門公家機關預計推到全國需要花多少時間因為剛剛好像也沒有很明確的聽到你預計的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5366.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5383.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
一定規模以上的醫院金融機構網站一同我們也想請教一定規模以上你們預計是怎麼樣來訂是以資本額或是涉戰地的點數或是服務人數或是有其他的標準你們預計執法要怎麼樣訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5384.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5400.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那最后呢欧盟的这个欧洲无障碍法已经把规范的对象延伸到银行交通电商电子书等等关键服务提供者并且要求自2025年相关产品如果不符合无障碍规范不得在欧盟市场销售 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5401.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5430.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以我们要外销欧盟的产品我们就自己要求以后就可以符合销售到欧盟的市场这也代表银行交通电商电子书这四大类别的厂商我们现在就必须要要求他们符合这样才可以促进我们的外销所以我们修法对接国际的标准不只是保障人权也有助于国内软体还有服务提升国际警诊理这一点要请整个行政部门再参考谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5431.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5448.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好 謝謝看起來這個經委員有提了很多需要各個單位來回應那我們還是先請書畫部書畫部中研高級分析師謝謝昭偉委員 大家好那關於委員詢問到 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5449.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5477.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
現在無障礙網站的合規一個狀況目前現在法規就已經規定政府所有新建制的網站還有現有的網站都一定要合規所以各個機關都是往這個布廟來做那我們現在有固定的一個檢測的一些範圍還有檢測的一個機制那只是說要跟委員報告是它是一個動態的狀況有時候網頁會改版所以機關會再修對那我們整個檢測會搭配實際上人工第一線然後還有第二線是身障朋友實際去檢測這個沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5478.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5486.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那第二個就是行動化應用軟體那在這一次納入以後我們也會用同樣的方式一起來處理來責成各個機關來達到這樣子的一個目標所以沒有問題謝謝那經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5500.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5525.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
長官好各位委員好那在那個剛剛有特別提到像ATM的部分那我們這邊已經有訂出了一個16220這樣的一個標準這個標準就適用在比如說像ATM或Kiask或者一些自動售票機的一些資訊的一些要求然後包含無障礙這部分然後也訂出了15321無障礙資訊與通訊科技指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5526.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5545.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
但是因为标准是自愿性的那比如说ATM而言的话ATM可能他到底要符合怎么样的一个达到所谓的无障碍那可能要看ATM这个商品的主管机关可能要回归到银行局看他有没有去引用这些标准的一些内容以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5547.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5572.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
好 謝謝那人事行政總署 國發會好像還沒到國發會今天沒有邀請是人事行政總署 是人事總署這邊說明就是目前的話網站都有通過像速發部的一個無障礙的一個認證那有關其他政府部門的部分就像如同剛剛那個速發部的代表說明的這個是一個他們他們就是會定期的一個做認證謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5575.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5590.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好 那監管會的長官有需要再回應或補充嗎監管會或者是署長這邊因為我們國話會沒有邀請長官過來有沒有針對這個剛剛軍委員的這些後面 是 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5602.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5626.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
有有有來請稍等請管會銀行局這邊也回應一下這個ATM的部分我們先講到說我們目前銀行的部分在網站跟網路銀行的部分都有去拿到那個速發部的一個檢測的一個標準那行動銀行的部分就是行動APP的部分也有依照速發部的那個相關的無障礙的指引去做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5627.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5640.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那至於剛剛經濟部提到的ATM的部分呢他們現在經濟部是說有相關的一些規範跟標準喔那只是說在然後那個規範標準是自願性的那另外在實務上的困難是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5642.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5658.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
目前還缺一個第三方的一個檢測的一個認證的一個單位 標章他雖然有一個規範跟標準在但是欠缺了一個檢測的一個標章來去做認證是銀行在實務上執行的一個困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5661.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5677.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
是好那對於這些回應不詳經委員還有沒有要提出來再確認但是基本上這樣聽起來的回應好像沒有符合我們使用就是身上來的使用者的需求嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5679.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5689.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
因為因為並沒有一個標章但是衛福部可以先回應未來他們這個某一個規模以上他們會按照哪些指標來訂定來 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5693.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5707.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
署長針對軍委員相關希望讓這個檢驗標準的部分有比較完整的規劃或者是處理模式這邊有沒有在進一步回應署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5715.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5739.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個以我們這次設定的條文來看一定規模以上的醫院金融機構的話這個一定規模將來的部分的話依照現在條文的設計就是有個別的主管目的事業主管機關那他要來去做相關的的律定和設計跟規範所以依照行政院版本如果提到的有關醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5740.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5755.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
金融機構的網站的話那就會分別由這個我們部裡面的我們部裡面的醫政的主管單位和金管會這邊來做相關的要求這個初步的到時候設計的部分應該還是會需要和這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5757.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5776.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
應該會在條文通過之後跟這個業者的部分來做一個討論怎麼依照也許會有期程等等來做一個討論是所以根據我目前所看到的條文內容他會定辦法後面也會定執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5778.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5807.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
是還是他會有兩個那在第二項的部分那有關這個網站的檢測的部分那他會有一個檢測的方檢測的規這個部分那主要是有書主要可能會會有要請書法部這邊來幫忙那而第三項這個一定規模的部分那他未來就是他可能就不是一個辦法他可能就是一個這個據法規命令形式的一個公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5808.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5826.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
例如說醫院來講 例如可能就是一個500床以上或者區域以上的醫院類似這個樣子因為他不會有細節的內容他的細節內容還是會回到第二項裡面的規範他就是規定一個公告那個門檻一定規模的那個門檻他到時候就會有一個公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5832.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5845.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是 所以如果在有需要在立法說明裡面把剛剛經過委員所提到的那些做加強表述嗎如果用這樣的方式不知道經過委員同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5847.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5862.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
可以看是您要修再執法還是您要用附帶決議因為聽起來還是蠻含糊的剛剛只有聽到傳述還沒有聽到金融機構的規模你們要大概這個具體的部分剛才跟委員報告這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5863.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5881.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個是舉例啦所以確定比較精確的門檻那這個就是規模的這個門檻確實是在法律訂了以後那會有個別的目的事業主管機關來跟這個來做過討論以後做一個比較精準的一個規範懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5885.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5896.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
理解那對於這個訂的方式的話那個我們可以在那個說明欄裡面就是在這個裡面我們可以在說明欄裡面大概做一個稍微深入的描述這個我們可以來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5898.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5914.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
主席你剛剛就是他們有稍微解釋這個ATM的規範但是聽起來每一個部門是各做各的看主席覺得要怎麼處理比較好是不是再附帶決議再把它規範得更清楚因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5916.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5941.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
經濟部 促發部他們並沒有辦法統一的去規範跟落實使用者所以您同意就是用附帶決議把您剛所列到的一些問題請還是要再直接從說明欄裡面去處理在說明欄裡面增補不曉得經貿委員同不同意用說明欄的加強增補內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5943.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5969.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這一條我們就按照行政院提案通過那用這個在立法說明欄裡面加強補述相關的內容好謝謝那我們往下53條53條有包括陳冠廷委員何欣淳委員吳立華委員的提案還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5972.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5989.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
劉建國委員 廖偉祥委員 盧憲義委員的提案 還有蔡玉玲月群委員還有郭群範圍委員的相關提案那我們先請署長這邊先說明還有盧憲義委員的修正動議來請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5996.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6005.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
第53條的話這個在行政院這一次是沒有提修正的的版本那這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6008.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6028.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
其中針對各個委員的版本的提案的內容有一些可能是因為提案的時間的關係這個是在去年已經修正已經在討論有修正的就是將博愛座修正成優先席的部分有一部分的委員可能是因為提案的時間現在還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6029.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6056.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個要將博愛座修正成優先席的部分這個部分我們建議這個因為已經和現行法的現行法律規定的部分文字一樣那這個部分我們建議就可以直接依照現行的規定來做處理那這個第二個是有關在陳冠廷委員就提到就是陳冠廷委員的版本有提到就是交通運輸的設施規定如果是在要另一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6058.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6079.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
運輸業者他在一定的期限內要去有相關的如果是不符合前面的這些相關的規定要在一年內要去提供一個改善計畫的部分那因為這個交通運輸工具的話事實上是從鐵公路車船運車船飛機等等都通通都會包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6080.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6102.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那這個一年之內是不是能夠這個對於各種各樣不一樣的運輸運具大眾運具都能夠在一年內能夠提出來我們是建議這個部分可能是不是等一下可以請我們交通部的部分來幫忙做一些說明然後第二個第二點有關范雲委員所提到的在如果是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6106.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6121.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
有關路線航線運輸區域這個沒有辦法提供無障礙運輸業者的相關的要提供替代的方案或者是合理調整那這個部分的話其實這個就是其實主要的內容是提供是 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6123.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6137.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這樣的一個概念怎麼樣去提供身心障礙者一個適足的運輸的效能這點大方向上我們是支持不過范委員的提案的內容比較偏向在 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6138.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6158.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
合理調整和這一條本身在處理比較偏向無障礙設施的改善這個條文規範的主要的方向似乎不太一樣我們建議這個部分是不是可以不一定要納進來那這個部分細節的部分可能也需要交通部來幫忙做一些說明那第三點是有關盧縣議委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6158.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6180.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
有提到針對原住民偏鄉的部分要這個要規劃要專案規劃一些無障礙設計的替代性運輸服務而減身對原住民身心障礙者要有優先的預約或者費用補貼那這個部分的話可能也要參考也要邀請交通部是不是可以來一併做一些說明以上好謝謝請問委員有來歡迎委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6187.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6202.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
第53條跟運輸有關的我覺得蠻重要的因為我這邊就是把因為我們這款原本的條文其實如果完整的話今天我們就不會有這麼多的陳情跟問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6203.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6231.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我自己辦公室就有處理過一個陳情案就是有一位輪椅的使用者他要去離島結果那個航空公司就以他的輪椅太重然後花費太高因為他下降的時候需要一個什麼機器就拒絕如果你這個條文本身很有用的話其實就不需要找到立委最後開協調會才解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6233.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6261.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那后来我们发现其实就是那个再重就是要再找一个类似什么样的设施等于就是要花比较多的资源那可是如果原本条文很有用的话就不需要了嘛因为事实上后面你这个条文本身虽然有一个找各身障团体开过会然后主管机关严商同意后前面那个就不用提供无障碍了可是这里面还是有一个不对等的关系因为如果主管机关是站在 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6262.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6289.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
航班航线的提供者那里那就会发生像我刚刚所讲的就是我们轮椅使用者去离岛因为小飞机然后他就完全不提供服务所以我这边这个合理调整跟前面刚刚署长讲的有点不一样前面我们比较聚焦在好像是找工作就是聘用这个部分因为这个交通权很重要还是希望说卫福部这里是不是可以考虑就把那个 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6291.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6311.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
應提供如果沒有一般性的無障礙的時候服務的時候應該要提供替代改善方案或合理調整如果真的有困難的話要有舉證責任就是那家公司要舉證責任才能不適用前項規定我想這樣才能夠杜絕因為到時候交通部應該就是看這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6312.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6324.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
大家看這條如果跟原來一樣的話那就沒有辦法解決我剛剛所講的我們立委遇到的一些而且會來陳情的是少數就是我們覺得他是一個合理的陳情以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6332.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6357.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
有沒有補充這個可能後細節的部分會需要交通部的長官來幫忙做補充或針對范委員剛才所提到的部分這邊可能在通案性的部分跟委員做一個說明就是這個我們現在在處理的53條的部分主要是他的規範的內容主要是針對無障礙的部分所以無障礙他的基本的概念就是他是一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6358.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6374.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
被規範到的行業或者是醫務人這就是他一定要去做而且他是基本上很多可能是有一些不管透過設計的規範或者是等等要求他就是一定要做到的那他是一個普遍對身心那個普遍適用的一個基本的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6375.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6390.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那委員所遇到的那個協調的個案的話那個其實在這個身心障礙的協助處理的部分他的個案性質會比較偏向就是合理調整其實也如同委員這個提案裡面所提到的這個委員的委員提案的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6392.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6409.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
第二項裡面它的屬性上面是比較接近合理調整的事項那這個在文字的部分條文規範的部分我們在前面的第16條昨天在討論的時候其實各位委員也花了非常多的心力在處理這個有關合理調整的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6409.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6438.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那如果以这样的一个个案来看的话他可能就是会属于就是在交通的部分属于在无障碍的设施之外他需要额外的做一些合理的调整的动作那这个部分的话在第16条我们现在条文设计就是当这个身心障碍者要提出合理调整的一些需求的时候那么这个调整的义务人那在只要能够在合理这个不过分负担的范围内 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6439.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6465.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
不要有過分的支出範圍內他就要能夠去處理而且這個部分也如同委員的這個版本的部分那我們昨天討論的討論到昨天討論的結果是也要有相關這個舉證責任的部分也會有一個處理的規定所以我們會建議有關在合理調整的這個部分是不是可以就一併放到這個到時候在16條因為昨天是保留是不是可以在16條部分來一併做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6467.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6476.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那其他各委員有關提到的這個有關交通上面有障礙的部分是不是可以拜託請交通部的部分來做一些說明 以上好 請副市長麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6485.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6504.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是 那交通部在這邊針對各位委員的問題我這邊在做第二次的回應第一個針對那個剛剛所提到要修正那個要責任運輸業者在一年內提改善計畫的這一個修正我建議因為我們的那個整個的一個運輸環境其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6506.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6524.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
非常複雜所以要說在一年內能夠把它馬上把它修正修正做完了我這邊不敢保證說一定因為其實我們交通部在過去應該說這10年我們針對整個交通環境的無障礙我們自己內部有聘請一些身障團體來擔任委員也會協助我們做檢視那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6528.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6556.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們的車輛包括從車輛到建築它的態換其實會有一定的一個年限當然所有的都會依據我們現在目前的整個無障礙或通用設計的原則來處理所以我這邊還是先建議保留一個彈性就這一年的部分是不是可以暫時先不要列在法條裡面但是後面會有一個就是所謂的合理調整或者是替代方案的部分是部裡面一直在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6557.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6584.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那第二個是針對剛剛所提到說個案就是有一些航空公司啊什麼針對輪椅太重的部分就是沒有辦法上飛機那我想這個部分因為這邊就是應該說原則上我們大部分都會針對輪椅的部分不管入海空就是會盡量提供服務但是因為可能有少數過去我們也不只 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6585.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6601.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
委員這邊提到的就是那個航空公司那其他有些運具也發生過那甚至有一些是輪椅超重那個已經不是超出我們原來整個運具的無障礙的一些輪椅的空間的一個還有載重的一個規定那這個太重部分也發生過 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6602.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6622.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那這個我是建議說這個部分因為合理調整當然我們會去做那是不是一定要弄到法規裡面去強調說各式各樣甚至有的是那種不合規定的那個代步車也發生過所以是不是所有的這樣的一個器具都要能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6623.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6648.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
能夠服務所以這個部分我是還是也是建議說能夠保留一個彈性那讓那個讓各運輸機構用其他的一個方案替代方案來做做處理那第三個是剛剛最後一個是盧委員所提供的那個所建議的那個原住民地區的一個服務因為我們現在其實針對偏遠地區或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6648.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6673.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
原住民地區我們現在已經在有幸福巴士那如果是有長照或復康的需求那地方政府也有這樣的一個服務所以那另外針對那個費用補貼的部分因為其實我們生權法第58條已經有規定相關的優待了所以這個條文我也是建議說暫時先不要列入在第53條去做一個重複的規定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6675.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6700.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好 謝謝 副市長的回應請到換委員其實雖然就是副市長說明了可是我還是蠻憂心的因為這裡面到底是有替代方案有合理調整還是那個相關的譬如說輪椅或者它的那個需要的服務就是超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6701.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6730.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
一個真的可以合理調整的範圍我覺得這邊其實就是有模糊地帶那可是因為原條文我們過去看到的就是發生過很多其實是可以就是搭載只是航空公司的成本比較高那這個部分不管是航空公司吸收或者我們最後合理調整政府會有一點補助那我們其實就是在實踐前面所講的交通這些不得有歧視之對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6731.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6747.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
可是因为我们16条那个不得有歧视对待没有合理调整到底算不算都还没有处理所以我是建议说不然这个53就一起保留如果那边处理好的话我就同意说这个我们就不用放在这另外还有一个我还在那个那是第几段 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6749.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6778.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
二三四五这个是第五项是不是有多了一个第三项大众运输工具无障碍设施项目设置后面加了及服务与资讯提供因为有些时候那些交通的服务与资讯提供有没有无障碍等等它本身就非常的不清楚所以这个部分我觉得也蛮重要的那不过这条如果大家没有其他的意见我建议就因为跟16条相关就一起保留谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6781.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6806.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我也是希望可以建議主席保留因為剛剛聽完交通部的回覆會認為我們就是大家都遇到輪椅的問題他很不方便不管是搭乘交通工具或是坐飛機出國這已經嚴重影響到他的生活了可是我們卻沒有辦法透過修法讓這件事情可以落實的話那我們坐在這邊就沒有意義所以我也希望可以把53跟16一起把它保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6806.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6832.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
好 謝謝 那還沒有其他委員的意見我這邊補充一下這個當時針對大眾運輸的修法的那個歷程十多年前大修申請法的時候針對這一條也討論非常久那所以我去建立副市長你覺得一年時間是不夠需要更多的時間其實我講應該是應該是你剛才也特別提到改善十年以上了 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6833.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6858.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
對不對在這過程嘛應該是不止啦所以所以所以在一年不夠不然是要多久是不是你要寫你有個具體說法是第一點那第二點你特別剛剛講到說這個這個呃呃我們呃身上的朋友的倫理哦呃有的呃有很多的這種這種這種這種型那叫什麼型號 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6859.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6883.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
有的是有符合規定的有的是不一定的好那其實是在各大的準備登載飛機之前你們就可以羅列清楚有符合的可以上飛機的清清楚楚甚至也可以直接要求各航空公司直接把相關的符合的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6885.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6896.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
輪椅的這樣的一個型號行穩到所有的這些身障團體也讓他們知道他們在搭載這個大眾運輸航空器的時候很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6897.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6918.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你不符合的不合乎這個航空公司可以承載的這樣的一個輪椅的一個情況那我想有這樣的比較比較通透的訊息的情況之下這事情應該就可以降低很多了但是應該這十多年來沒有做這件事情了就我的理解是這樣好那請國務卿委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6924.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6946.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好其實這條是重中之重那我想剛好陳經緯委員也在這邊之前我跟他一起去台北車站那也體驗我們自己坐輪椅我們不要講說一般人其實對於所謂的那個無障礙空間的設計或者是整個所有的標示有不友善這件問題光是我們自己坐輪椅去體驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6948.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6975.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我要搭車我要趕車其實我們就碰到非常多的障礙所以所以這條我覺得尤其是剛剛范委員講的那個服務及資訊的提供的一個方式跟設置這個部分其實我也有特別加進去啦那我覺得這個是要呼應現在很多的不管是剛剛所提到的這個身心障礙者他們在使用他們的輪椅的同時那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6976.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7002.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所有的這個交通的運輸的一個狀況他們所碰到的一些困境我覺得這條其實真的是我們也希望能夠趕快能夠有一個比較具體的一個方式能夠把它做一個修正那剛剛有提到說如果這條其實在前面第16條也有這樣子一個疑慮那要整體保留但是我希望還是能夠趕快呼應一下就是身心障礙者他們真正的需求好 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7002.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7031.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
好謝謝那天我也有去我是去搭車要回去我有看到你們我有看到你們兩個坐輪椅很辛苦了也是把這問題凸顯出來那這個法則不應該十多年來如果討論還是回歸到十多年前的討論的那個樣態那基本上交通部跟衛護部是要大大的一個檢討好我們先行保留繼續來審查院版所提五四條那委員有郭益勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7033.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7058.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
林業勤委員還有蘇喬厚委員還有李坤城委員信息條文我們並來討論請行政單位先做說明行政單位54條主要是增訂第二項那針對這個有關人行道道路騎樓的一些不符合規定的要定要求縣市政府要分年改善那這個部分的話各個委員的提案的版本都看行政院版本的內容相同我們建議行政院的提案通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7065.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7084.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
行政院行政第二項要求地方政府要擬定市區道路人行道市區道路兩旁騎樓的每分年分期改善計畫這個當然是利益良善大家都很認同可是比如我們主席也是區域的委員所以實務上會遇到很多困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7085.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7106.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
这个这边只有写说要求可是没有写相对应的补助请问有没有相对应的补助款因为比如说不管是台中市云林县服务员真的非常的广所以要做的项目非常多这个只靠地方政府是不够的我不知道有没有办法可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7106.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7126.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
写拟定分年计划并改善大家起改成中央地方协力然后来请主管机关调整一下条文因为许多次我们在做一些会刊啊等等的都已经很认真在改进道路设计了可是并不是所有的都市都 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7128.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7139.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
呃像一些我們可能像現在大家開會的台北市是比較密集的所以全部改變下來是所費不值的這個應該主席應該也蠻有感慨的謝謝跟你一樣有感慨好那各位還請到要表示意見來請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7151.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7167.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我想我们常常到各县市各地方就会发现这条如果只这样写的话真的不会被落实因为我刚看那个罚则的部分也没有罚则大家都知道比如我们刘建国委员要选县长 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7168.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7192.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
到时候坐下去他也可能掉选票对不对所以对所有的主管来讲市长来讲这件事情都很难除非民众的要求那毕竟无障碍需要的人他还是少数那在每一个城市的代价不一样所以这条我们如果真的要做好的话你没有罚则我真的不知道大家为什么看了他然后就会做好这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7194.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7202.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
剛剛講到的是一個補助魏夫婦可不可以說明一下第54條如果做不到的話會怎麼樣地方如果都不做的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7208.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7229.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個部分的話因為它規範的內容是有關包括市區道路登行道以及建築物的騎樓那這這個部分的話分別的主管機關是包括交通部和內政部那這個部分有關在督導督導跟管這個關對地方政府的管理機制的部分是不是可以請交通部和內政部的人來幫忙做一個說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7233.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7249.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
來請先請交通部交通部應該是換國土署那兩個單位基本上在這幾年都有針對台灣的這個人行人行道有很多的改善補助地方蠻多的來麥克風給副市長好不好麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7265.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7282.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
交通部這邊我想在這一條大概主要的應該會涉及到是我們的省縣道因為其實我們的人行道其實應該是沒有這樣問題會涉及到跟輪椅有關的應該是騎樓或者市區道路這個建議還是回到那個內政部那邊來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7286.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7312.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
不是 這個是這樣 都市計劃內是內政部都市計劃外是裡面因為我們這邊省縣道在處理的時候應該都是依照我們的公路設計規範裡面去處理 那都市計劃外的那個省縣道部分應該目前就是應該還是會依照相關規定來做因為主要是騎樓應該是針對市區道路市區內的那個騎樓跟人行道起平的那個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7313.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7323.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
省縣倒還是會有其有的問題那個 不安全 不會有問題我知道了 好 好啦 那就不這樣來 國土署 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7336.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7363.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
主席及各位委員大家早安那國土署就這個部分做一個說明那我們其實那個委員所關心的在有關於人行道或者是騎遊的部分那我們已經逐年都有編列相關的經費來協助地方政府做一些環境的改善那如果說委員關心的部分他涉及到違反的可能還會包括有市區道路條例的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7364.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7387.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
罰則的部分會回到那個部分去做有關的影響通行的一個做處理所以對於現行的有關於人行道及騎遊的部分我們剛剛委員所提醒的是不是要加注有關於中央跟地方協力的部分我們想現行的相關的政策以及推動的計畫已經都有那我們也逐步在協助地方政府推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7388.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7412.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以這個部分我們建議是不是還是維持有關現行願辦的條文以上說明好這個就剛剛跟各位補充了確實這幾年因為人行地域的事情發生嘛所以國土署還有交通部針對這個部分補助地方政府蠻多的經費而且都逐年有在施工但是也成如剛剛換委員所講的啦有些地方施工起來確實爭議不斷的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7416.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7441.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我剛剛聽起來就是說其實你們的補助是有的有在改善中但是最做不好的那個罰則現在剛剛聽起來是很微弱所以再回來講我前面有一個也是被保留的你要給民眾一個申訴的機制今天民眾以為是衛福部不知道是衛福部以為是交通部後來發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7443.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7469.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
齊樓是內政部哪個民眾這麼有公民意識跟能量去找不同的單位去投訴因為地方政府如果不做的時候他只有往中央嘛那剛剛講的齊樓剛剛聽起來是說應該都做得很好人行倒沒問題了大家如果有去外縣市不要講台北可能都也是有一些地方新北也還蠻嚴重的我自己常去台中市就是連我們這個不需要任何就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7471.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7487.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
行走還算很方便的都很難走動了所以我自己是覺得這邊如果行政院條款就是大家OK的話我們另外一個被保留的那個可以向國家人權委員會去申訴那個機制要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7488.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7514.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為你今天衛福部也管不到交通部等下內政部沒有做你也管不到他然後他可能在內政部看起來不是他的主要業務的時候其實就算有立委關心有的時候也會立有位待所以我是用這條談就是說這個院版我OK可是聽起來還是會有很多的漏洞那你要讓民眾他有一個申訴超越這些地方政府的一個申訴的機構謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7517.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7536.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好 換陳清惠委員剛剛有講到說在幅員很寬廣的縣市要做的項目實在是太多了所以有限的資源要如何面對巨大的改善量單靠地方政府是不夠的那現在的條文是直接叫地方要處理這樣子地方壓力很大因為這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7538.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7560.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
真的是常常會被罵工程所以沒有很多共識的話看是不是就先保留然後之後我們來討論比如說交通部 內政部 國土署 中央地方大家要怎麼樣來協力分工可以先保留嗎可以啊 可以好這一條就先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7561.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7588.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好那我們繼續來審查單單一條是換零委員對不起 林岳勤委員所提的55條是不是請行政單位說明一下林岳勤版本 林岳勤委員版本的55條是有關耗資的部分有相關的有整理相關的規定那這個部分因為涉及到交通部的業務是不是可以請交通部的長官來幫忙做一個說明以上來請副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7590.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7591.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
他要多一個有聲後製 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7594.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7621.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
跟各位委員報告因為其實交通部在我們現行的道路標誌標線設置規則裡面已經規定要設立所謂的有聲號誌那原來我們也針對這有聲號誌部分也訂定了相關的一些指引給各地方交通主管機關參考那後來也是配合那個55條規定就是我們把它改名叫做視覺功能障礙語音號誌的設置指南 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7621.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7647.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那這是配合第二項的部分其實現在已經部裡面依據母法部分我們交通部的相關規定已經訂定了那是不是要在林蔚琴委員這邊在第一項的部分再來增訂部裡面一件事應該是不用因為我們現在母法層級很清楚架構很清楚所以這個部分是建議就是維持現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7649.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7668.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
來請王正旭委員好謝謝主席那因為有跟相關單位有做過溝通那他還同意在現行條文上可以不需要進行修正以上好那我們55條就建立為此原條文好好謝謝那我們繼續審查院版所提57條那委員有 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7671.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7687.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
臺灣民眾黨 蔡議員 郭美琴委員 何欣淳委員 還有陳菁惠委員 林月琴委員 范瑀委員 蘇協會委員 吳麗華委員 還有李坤成 張雅琳兩位委員 還有憲情條文我們邊緣人討論 請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7689.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7718.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
行政院版第57條主要是針對新建的公共建築物或者是活動場所應該要遵守的無障礙的一些要求那行政院這次版本的主要是除了針對一些少數的文字調整之外那主要是增列了在於這個對於公共場所的無障礙設施的管理的權限之外除了這個考慮到實務管理的需要除了讓所有權能之外也把使用人納進管理的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7718.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7734.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這是行政院版修正的主要的內容那各委員的版本的部分大體上來說在這個擴大管理管理對象的部分看行政院的版本內容大致上是一致的那比較有不同的地方大概是 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7735.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7754.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有包括林月琴委員的版本有甄列在這個適用的範圍是不是要第一項是不是要甄列有關叫做室外場所這個有跟這個我們初步的檢視是因為現行的條文已經有戶外場域的部分是已經現行條文已經有叫做活動場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7756.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7771.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那是不是還需要增加戶外場域這樣部分的話似乎文字上是已經可以含括所以我們建議似乎不一定需要再定到這個條文的文字裡面來另外范雲委員的提案在第三項有爭議的時候這個設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7777.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7802.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
要經過舉證的時候可以由所有權人及管理權人去提據改善計劃那這個由於是提據改善計劃我們這個部分的話是不是要經過舉證的部分因為這一類的未來在審核的時候主要都也都是由內政部來做管理我們建議是不是可以請內政部來做一個說明 以上來 內政部先做說明不要說我們沒辦法給兩三基 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7808.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7831.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我氣死了 全部都用了報告主席及各位委員內政部國土署就這個部分做說明剛剛那個署長所提及到的那個經舉證的部分可能這個部分我們要釐清一下他舉證的部分因為在這一條他所涉及到的是公共建築及各活動場所的目的事業主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7832.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7854.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以这个替代改善计划的审核不会只有内政部而是由各目的市如果这些公共建筑物或者是活动场所他在没有办法改善他去提取替代改善计划的时候会由各目的事业主管机关去审核认可他的替代改善计划是不是可以做执行 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7854.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7870.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那以內政部所主管的公共建築物而言我們現在他如果是有無法改善的情況那他必須要提出一個說明所以這個經舉證的部分我們建議是可以不要做增列因為你沒有去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7870.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7888.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
一個現場個案的確認我們也很難去認定說他是不是有沒有辦法依照規定來去做改善的一個治安難行的情況所以在這個部分我們建議有關於舉證的這個字眼是不是可以不要增列 以上說明來 請換委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7891.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7920.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我有一點聽不懂你的意思是說放了舉證這兩個字他的改善計劃你就得要去現場看才能確定是不是有那個證據那因為你們沒有辦法去現場看所以不要寫舉證這兩個字是不是不是跟委員再報告一下就是這個部分以現行的公共建築物的替代改善計劃為例那這個場所的管理機關負責人或者是所有權人他要去進行這個改善那他有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7921.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7938.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
依照現行建築物的規定去進行改善設置的時候那他必須要去提出替代改善計畫的一個申請那替代改善計畫的申請的內容他就會包括你沒有辦法改善的項目那原因那你要提出替代改善的內容是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7938.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7958.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那在這個部分其實就已經有舉證的內涵因為他必須要提出這些無法改善情形的一個說明以及你要提出什麼樣的一個改善計劃能夠讓行動不變者能夠進出及使用建築物的各項設施達到委員會所關心的可及性的這樣的一個議題的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7960.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7979.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那所以呢在這個部分既然他要提出替代改善計劃的一個申請那所以這個應該就已經是屬於這個所謂的舉證的類型那所以我們建議線型的文字是不是能夠不要增列那其實用線型的機制就可以做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7980.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8005.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
謝謝詳細說明所以你的意思是說改善計劃裡頭本來就應該要有矩陣了我想我們會提這個東西都是有發生過就是大家覺得不是這樣可能因為他主管機關太多了也許有些主管機關講我OK我們是不是放在說明文字裡面讓改善計劃的詳細裡頭包含矩陣這邊我就支持願板謝謝好 謝謝各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8008.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8037.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那如果沒有的話就是不是說明就說明說明立法說明就請衛務部跟內政部這邊溝通一下看怎麼可以達到那個歡迎委員所期待的這樣的一個內容好那我們這一個條文就照行政院的提案來通過好謝謝那我們繼續審查院盤所提58條那有台灣民眾黨還有蔡議員郭玉琴委員還有林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8039.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8045.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
蘇喬惠委員 吳立華委員還有李昆成 張雅琳兩位委員還有縣省調養我們並然在討論請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8048.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8072.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
行政院版第58條主要是在主要是一個文字的整理以及在最後項第5項的部分這個授權事項的部分能夠去書寫到比較周延那目前各委員的版本文字和行政院的提案的內容修正方向總體是一致的所以我們建議是否可以依照行政院版本的提案來通過 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8073.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8088.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好各位委員就看這個螢幕上這個看有沒有其他問題如果沒有就大家一次嘛除非不一次的你就可以先講沒有嘛大家都一次好謝謝那我們就建立造行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8090.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8117.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 繼續審查原本所提五十八條之一那有委員羅美玲 劉建國 台灣民眾黨蔡依瑜 郭益勤 何新淳 陳慶輝 林月琴 蘇巧慧 吳麗華 王玉民 萬美玲 李坤城 張衍林等委員所提也是五十八條之一 那還有現行條文我們並按導論 請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8119.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8148.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
行政院版修正第58修正第58條之一那主要是增訂第二項那對於有關為促進身心障礙者行動便利那有要求市下市縣市政府要去統整合轄內的交通服務資源來發展相關的交通服務措施那各委員版本的提案的內容主要和行政院版有不同的地方其中有 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8149.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8175.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
林玉琴委員的版本在第三項有甄列對於有關免徵或有關貨物稅的部分有相關的規範那這個部分的話可能這個由於在貨物稅條例跟海關進口稅則部分目前有相關的規定那是否需要在這邊要再規範的時候在適用上是不會有重複那這個部分可能需要請財政部來幫忙表達來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8175.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8204.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
另外蘇巧惠委員的提案中對於有增訂第三項那也針對這個副方高巴士跟交通服務設施的管理的規定有要求這個以及隨車人員的配置等等有要求慈霞市縣市政府要訂定相關的規範那由於考慮到這個本條的規範是希望對於縣市政府對於他去做一個交通資源的整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8204.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8234.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那現行對於富康巴士或者已經明訂的交通服務的太陽裡面的車輛設置或者隨車人員的要求在這個個別的規定裡面以富康巴士而言像在這個依照第51條的授權訂定的個人照顧服務辦法裡面對富康巴士相關的這個隨車人員細節的管理的部分人員的訓練部分都已經有相關的規範所以我們建議就不需要在這裡再額外的來增訂文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8234.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8244.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那以上好謝謝那就應該是就林玉璇委員所提的這個建國護護稅的部分那是不是先請護稅署副署長來做回應來麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8251.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8268.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
跟各位委員報告這個福祉車在貨物稅的這個部分依照現行貨物稅條例已經有免稅的規定包括原來的公衛車輛本來就免稅然後我們在98年的時候有增加的這個富康巴士104年有增加載運輪椅使用者車輛108年有把倒載沐浴車也拉進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8272.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8293.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那我們的衛福部還有這個交通部這些主管機關都會依據而且也已經按照我們的財政紀律法跟納保法的規定做這個稅市支出那針對這些免稅的法案我們經過主管機關的評估有它的必要性而且也有確保它的可行性跟有效性 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8294.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8321.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那這個而且訂定實施的年限目前我們這幾種車輛大概就五年了那借滿的時候都會在滾動來檢討他有沒有延續的必要性至於這個委員有提案說要不要再甄列新的這個車輛那我們考慮到說這個車輛的種類還有他的這個定義跟用途其實在條文裡面並沒有具體明確那這個部分還是需要我們主管機關來做確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8323.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8339.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
然後也需要依照我剛剛提到納保法跟財計法的規定做稅事支出但這部分我想說因為在稅法裡面也已經有很明確的這個法律的程序跟這個作業那是不是容這個部分我們在草案的第三項保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8340.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8356.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
Follow我們目前的這個稅法的規定比較完備那不曉得我們這樣的回應是不是OK你的意思是保留是什麼意思就是回到我們稅法去規範因為稅法本身依照我們納保法跟財計法的規定都會滾動性的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8357.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8374.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所以每一次都就像剛剛講五年嘛五年後來就會因為現在日新月異有些時候可能像過去也沒有沐浴車後來就有沐浴車所以那時候我們會為什麼特別去開一個門是說其他富有特殊裝置身為身心障礙的特殊 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8375.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8394.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
總類的車輛那我不知道說你們的整個的做法上流程是怎樣就是說如果未來有新的就可以那個不需要透過法律的一些要求嗎是 謝謝委員這部分還是有法律保留的問題但是因為這個是在稅法裡面來做規範而且我們還要配合財計法跟納保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8395.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8422.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
由主管機關去做像剛剛新型態的車輛的定義跟用途是不是符合我們長照者的需要或者是我們行動不便者的需要那這個都有這個做稅事支出的必要性因為我們稅事支出的重點就是第一個他有是不是要透過租稅手段來做有沒有他的必要性第二個他是不是有效跟可行那這個都是在納保法裡面還有財計法裡面有做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8422.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8438.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那可不可以是在你那邊也要只是你們滾動式修正的時候在討論的時候假設有一個新的就可以我們衛福部提出來然後針對你那邊去做好像當初倒載沐浴車也是這樣嗎都是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8446.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8456.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
主席我可以再發言我覺得當然不會是在列在這邊 這邊是講稅可是我覺得衛福部我們現在還沒有提出修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8459.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8479.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
附帶決議或修正動議 就是說現在政府應該整合復康巴士還有載運輪椅的車輛 倒載沐浴車及其他附有特殊裝置 這些衛生性障礙者使用的特殊車輛可是我們最重要是不是可以提供各項補助的措施 因為畢竟一般來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8480.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8496.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
單位要去購買這個來服務的時候通常那個金額都是比較大的我不知道說會不會針對我提出這樣子的一個概念有沒有可以先做一個回應嗎雖然不是在這一題要討論的這可以啦可以請回應來 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8505.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8529.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個部分的話有關在富康巴市的部分那目前的話都是由地方政府來編列預算來構置那目前我們所知道公財我們也有一部分的可以做一部分的補助那另外我們所知道的在這個不同的縣市裡面大概也都會有民間來透過捐贈不管是富康巴 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8529.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8542.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
或者是長道的接送車大概都有大概都是類似用現在這樣的一個模式那目前的話車輛都是持續的有在來都有持續的在穩定的在增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8543.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8563.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
不是 署長我剛剛講的是說如果在你 比我剛剛你提到的是復康吧復康吧執行已經很久那你說地方政府那我覺得不管是地方政府或中央我認為這一塊尤其是現在倒載沐浴測試上是需求也蠻大的我長輩有時候躺在家裡你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8564.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8589.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
一兩個月家也沒辦法幫他洗澡可是如果有倒載沐浴車的話基本上讓他們有一些清潔衛生我覺得還有上次對人的尊嚴的這個問題所以我們才想說有沒有可能有相關補助我只是說現在大家放在這邊不太適合是說這邊討論稅的問題可是想問一下如果提供補助不見得一定來自中央我說地方也OK可是你如果沒有訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8590.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8614.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
通常對啊那就是公益團體自己去募款那有能量的今天能夠去募款可是有些沒能量可是他又要做服務的時候通常就不可行就他有他有願意服務可是問題是沒有這樣子的一個設施設備而且這我覺得真的很考驗公益有時候公益團體他們在做這些服務的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8614.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8627.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
往往我們今天一個公益團體不可能設一個部門專門來募資因為所有的人員都要用在服務上所以才會有這樣子的一個考量說提出來問你們說有沒有可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8629.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8643.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
公文報告那個沐浴車的部分現在在長照基金的部分因為它是有念這個稻宅沐浴是有納入長照幾次付的項目所以沐浴車的部分現在也是透過長照基金有在補助有在補助服務單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8644.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8673.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那這個補助的模式就是地方去統籌他的需求之後會來跟每一個年度都會來跟這個中央來去申請所以如果地方有需要他是可以提出來的那這個部分大概補助的情況總體上來說這個中央只要有能力的部分不管是富康巴沐浴車或者是長道接送車大概都會透過這個各種各樣的方式在一定的範圍之內我們盡量來提供協助這個部分我們大概都會來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8674.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8696.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那地方自己一般的我們所知道很多縣市自己大概也會有透過地方自己的在財務負擔上面只要能夠支持大概也都會來盡量的來做處理好那這個因為是不同的資源補助下去所以這一條主要的目的增訂第二項的目的是希望縣市政府去把這個已經拿到的交通資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8697.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8722.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
能夠去做一個整合去做更有效的一個合併的來運用那這條目這次增訂第二項的目的是希望能夠讓地方責成地方政府能夠把這個手上的交通資源能夠來做一個更有效的處理以上好那我是不是如果這樣的話我在第二項最後一個是措施逗點並提供各項補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8728.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8730.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
最後 提供各項補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8739.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8758.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那你是要叫誰補助跟委員報告這個因為現在第二項的文字的話他規範的主體是直轄市縣市政府要去做整合所以如果加這個文字的話就是直轄市縣市政府要去補助那這個中央政府我們當然我們大概不太敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8762.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8782.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個我們要了解一下地方政府大概的狀況因為中央政府這邊其實我們也很怕就是每次都說中央做然後地方要買我們其實這個我們在大概訂這一類的規定我們大家都還是要跟地方大概有做過協調之後再去做訂定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8783.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8809.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
審華就審 盡量不要牽涉到選舉跟政治上的問題好不好我是提醒你說因為你要補助你的前提到底是要設定誰因為前面是直轄縣市政府對不對我請你小心而已你就不要再打到我這邊來 謝謝我就不是只有你啊所以是因為有些事實上是在中央有些在地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8814.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8839.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
對不起啦 我插一句話啦各位再看一下58條之一的第一項其實它是在明定不得有涉及直限制嘛那下面對照就是要去做整合嘛那你現在會把補助要放進來我覺得是不是提附帶決議這樣比較快啦 這樣好不好對啦 中央跟電話要分啦請衛福部先想啦 把問議先拿給你看你過半以後來當的時候我們附帶決議就可以開始解決啦好 謝謝 這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8840.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8841.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8859.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8884.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
林玉琴委員有提案增修在第59條那主要是要增列體育及運動設施的部分一定程度一定情況可以納入這個免費或者是民營的可以去做半價的優待那這個部分因為涉及到這個相關的這類場館體育或者運動設施會跟體育教育部和運動部都會有相關的意見這個部分是不是可以請教育部和運動部來做一個說明來運動部好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8889.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8913.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
謝謝 運動部對於增加運動設施沒有意見那但是體育的部分涉及到教育部那如果說教育部認為體育已經涵蓋在文教裡面了那我們會建議說是不是參考第二條跟52條的條文那就統一用運動設施就可以了 以上好 教育部要不要表示意見麥工 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8919.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8928.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
就如同剛才運動部講的就說我們文教的部分是不是就可以涵括我們部旅族館的相關的單位是不是就這樣簡化尊重剛才運動部講的這樣子謝謝好請林委員有事意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8935.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8960.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我沒聽懂就說文教就好了嗎就原來的那個文教還是我剛剛講燈號只是剛剛運動部講的那就是用運動設施就是剛才就是文教然後用運動設施就好了這樣文教燈簾運動設施是不是這樣這樣就已經照你的目的文字修正達成了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8965.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8987.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們就照林院長所提的提案再修正通過好謝謝好那我們繼續這個王醫師在看我了他已經提出專業的眼神在凝視我9點到11點已經兩個鐘頭現在休息謝謝休息10分鐘可以啦謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8996.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9014.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
坐太久 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9048.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9054.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9070.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9077.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9081.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9109.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對,對,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9110.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9139.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那我就覺得 每一排我們都寫四個字的那我每一排都寫四個字的那我每一排都寫四個字的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9146.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9148.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9163.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9188.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
小褲子 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9190.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9211.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
他不知道耶,加一年,他不理解加一年,他媽媽不認識他,所以他不知道,保留嗎?保留,這個才是保留,對,對,對,對,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9212.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9226.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9240.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9245.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9271.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9300.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
謝謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9315.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9329.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9339.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9354.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這什麼 花生 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9370.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9371.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
真的嗎?還好吧?這個年紀不會長得太不夠了吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9384.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9384.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
很香耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9414.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9425.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
後面好讚喔尤其是坐飛機半夜的時候突然就覺得好想吃後面喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9446.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9462.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好邪惡喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9483.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9502.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這張照片是在明天的早上拍攝的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9512.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9516.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9545.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9567.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
謝謝大家的收看,我們下期再見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9608.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9608.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9630.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9635.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9684.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9699.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9725.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9728.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 我們休息時間到 繼續開會來 關門放狗來 請各位就座 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9737.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9746.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們繼續審查委員柯先生所提的60條之一請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9751.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9770.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
有關柯志榮委員對60條之一所提的修正提案的部分主要是要擴大對於教育主管機關以及擴大現在的一些服務的內涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9771.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9789.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
由於考量到現行的特教法跟相關的裡面都已經有一些相關的規定要把教育單位要納進來現在在特教法現行已經有規定到特殊教育支持服務及團隊專業團隊運作辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9792.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9817.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
裡面已經有明訂對於高中以下的這些學校幼兒園等等他就應該要去結合相關的專業團隊來做相關的一些服務那這個部分的話我們有查到現行應該已經有相對應的一些具體的條文那具體的部分是不是如果有些細節是不是可以拜請教育部的部分來一併幫我們做一些補充以上好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9820.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9836.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
要請教育部說明是不是教育部 對不起教育部請說明的確在我們那個特殊教育法裡頭已經有相關規定所以就這一個部分我們是不是其實我們是建議說可不可以維持現行的條文就好了謝謝好 教育部意見是維持現行條文各位委員們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9836.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9853.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那個我請教一下那個教育部因為那個柯委員他們提到的這個部分就是他有提到公才盈餘補助項目包括視覺障礙幼兒的這種補助項目就是針對這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9855.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9875.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
幼兒的部分那你們現在在特教法裡面這個他所提到的這個部分你們現在都有在特教法裡面都有納入嗎因為原來的這個經費這個他提到的是公債回饋金裡面其中有一項是針對視障幼兒提供的服務這樣子你們有嗎有涵蓋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9880.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9890.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
跟我也報告因為我們教育部其實有編相關的預算在執行的所以是沒有用到你剛才說公裁的這一塊所以你們也有我們有相同的計畫在執行對對對我們有相關預算的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9893.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9922.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好 那是我 我們就來維持原條文來通過 好 謝謝好 我們繼續審查院版所提61條那有委員劉建國 臺灣民眾黨團蔡依瑜 郭益晴 何欣淳陳清輝 林月琴還有煥雲 蘇巧慧 吳立華盧憲一 還有林倩琪還有現行條文 我們並來討論還有修正動議第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9925.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9932.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
林詠琴委員要建議增訂第60條之二的部分那是針對有關像燒燙傷及損的這一類還沒有符合身心障礙標準的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9946.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9974.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
有些個案是不是能夠提供一些生活能夠去提供他的生活重建服務這個部分的話我們是建議這個部分由於目前在整體身障制度的部分還是以經過鑑定之後取得服務的方式架構來去做處理所以我們在這個法律裡面如果我們增訂相關的條文確實是會跟現有條文的整體的一個法律架構會有一些比較不太一樣的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9974.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9992.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以我們建議這個部分如果針對這一類個案他在取得身心障礙者身分之前會有一些服務相關的需求的話我們這個在基於行政的部分我們大概是可以從類似像公財或者是其他我們現在既有的一些服務的計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9993.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10020.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
看看是不是能夠把這些對象的一些需求能夠去把它納進來所以我們的具體建議是是不是有可能這個條文不增訂但是我們搭配一個附帶決議我們就請部裡面針對這一類的包括殺傷傷或者是疾損的這一類的個案那我們透過一些嚴定相關的服務計畫來提供它支持在取得身心障礙資格前的一些必要服務那從這個方向我們來研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10022.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10027.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這個有關的附帶決議 以上建議可以嗎 請林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10028.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10055.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
為什麼我會提這樣因為那時候我們跟集水的夥伴們講因為他一開始尤其很重要就是說他因為症狀就是還沒有固定可是沒辦法立即申請到身心障礙證明可是他同時這時候最需要嘛就如果生活重建做得好的話那後續療癒OK的話搞不好損失的狀況就他損失他喪失他能力的狀況可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10056.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10082.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
會減緩所以他們認為說同時這時候最需要即時且連續性的一個重建服務可是就是你因為一開始症狀還沒很固定下來所以就很希望說那你現行制度就是要取得證明才會變成是一個補助的門檻導致他們生活重建機構沒有辦法給那個給給補助然後事務上大家就影響到服務提供跟機構的營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10084.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10101.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那我不知道說署長這樣提說附帶決議裡邊還是會有提供這樣子的一個評估OK馬上提供不是一定要有身心障礙證明如果身心障礙證明的話他們就是初期就是沒辦法可是我覺得那初期的時候效能最高效果也是最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10103.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10126.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
跟委員報告 我們現在大概這個附帶決議就是針對他在 我們這個文字我們就朝向他在取得身心障礙身分前的一些需求那這個部分的話因為他還沒有取得所以他也有一個症狀 症狀還這個一般俗稱症狀還沒有確定的狀況那這邊的話我們未來去設計這些服務的部分也會跟現在醫療端 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10127.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10149.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
目前也在做向後延伸包括像PAC的這個部分也銜接的部分我們在未來這個相關的計畫裡面我們也去檢討怎麼樣去能夠跟醫療端去做一個比較清楚的銜接因為這類急損或者是燒傷傷的它在前期的時候它其實會需要非常大量的復健那可能也會銜接到相關的PAC |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10149.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10164.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那我們怎麼樣在他取得這個身心障礙身分之前那我們在這個有關生活重建的部分能夠跟他一起去做一個協作那我們在這邊透過計畫的方式我們先來去嘗試來做處理那我們把這個文字擬好之後再請委員這邊來過目 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10166.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10192.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
因為剛才我看你們附帶決議第一個你用疾病我剛才講疾水有時候不是疾損有時候不是因為疾病喔它是因為受傷車禍什麼什麼有的可能是事故等等疾病就限制了燒傷傷也不是疾病啊燒傷傷事實上是也是有一些人為貨的事實上是其他的因素在所以我同意附帶決議可是可能你剛剛你們寫的附帶決議要要去修正以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10198.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10222.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這部分我們之前另外一個法案也有討論過就是身心障礙者因為他現在規定一定要半年以上整體症狀穩定以後才做判斷再判定他是否是屬於身心障礙者才提供身心障礙後續的服務可是我們上次也提到很多的疾病其實在他發病初期剛好就是最需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10224.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10238.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
很快能夠有好的服務模式那在這個半年的期間裡面其實如果有好的方案來提供相關服務的話這可能要跟其他的相關學會或者是醫學會也討論看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10238.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10257.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
哪一部分的狀況符合我們希望能夠在這段時間提供的服務模式所以我們後來決議的部分我們會再多瞭解看看是不是也把可能的相關的這些臨床上的個案都能夠有機會透過大家努力把它納進來以上補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10259.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10284.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那個王偉宇這邊所提到是先前在前面的條文有關提到身心障礙定義的部分那這個是不是有症狀穩定那次在討論的時候其實我們這塊身心障礙因為鑑定的業務是本部的照護師在處理其實照護師這邊其實有已經有不止一次啦大概有強調說這個其實基本上是症狀穩定但是沒有要求一定要半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10285.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10303.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
沒有要求一定要半年所以這個我們同仁有查到一個相關的公文也有在去年的七月也有重申過大概對於這個部分有一些重申的做法我們等一下也可以把我們部裡面先前重申的規定也可以提供給委員來做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10303.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10323.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那未來在這個有關相關的計劃研擬的部分那這個除了剛才像月行委員所提到像奇筍燒燙商之外那有一些是不是有可能能拉進來的我們在計劃研擬的階段的時候我們也可以一併來做一些做相關的評估好 跟委員報告好 來 王業民委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10325.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10352.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這一條的部分提到就是一個是提供前期的這個服務另外一個我比較關注的是剛剛署長提到的這個怎麼樣那個轉弦跟接軌因為這類型的病人他可能前期因為有重大燒傷傷或者是積水損傷一定是先進醫院所以醫院跟後續這邊的社福體系的串聯我覺得這個可能要更緊密另外一個就是你剛剛提到的我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10354.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10375.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我不曉得我們現在在整個AI的運用跟判準現在其實醫療方面有很多的那個疾病案例現在AI真的可以解決蠻多事情的那像你們之前說要半年才能比較判準他會不會是一個身心障礙者但我不知道你們現在有沒有好好去演繹就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10376.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10403.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
其實身心障礙它有很多不同的類型類別包括它是因為什麼原因造成然後可逆不可逆就是你們有沒有去運用比較新的科技工具跟方法可以更精準的判準而且也可以更縮短就是說你要不要判定他成為身心障礙者可以取得身分證明資格我覺得這個是我們在修法的同時昨天其實有提到同樣的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10404.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10427.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
整個AI的運用的問題這邊其實我覺得也有這樣的問題當你可以更精準更快速的判定他的身份的時候一個是你後面的因為他是身體障礙者所以你的服務馬上就接來了就是他的那個空窗期其實沒有那麼久對所以我我認為這一塊你們是不是可以好好去思考我不知道你們現在在事務上有沒有開始去想這一塊但是我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10428.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10457.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
真的AI它的運用其實非常的廣那你在判斷連我們醫療上面它都可以輔助做手術或其他的疾病那這個是去判定它是不是身心障礙者的身份我真的覺得你們要衛福部這一塊要跟上就是比較少聽到你們在整個怎麼善用科技來幫助你工作其實是可以更更有效率那我覺得這一塊其實是可以跟上也可以縮短這樣的一個落差好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10459.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10485.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好 可以啦 那個就請行政單位把王委員 林委員的那個互待決議的期待 把它處理好了好不好好 那這一條我們就不以爭定好 繼續來審查院版所提61條 剛剛已經有宣讀過了還有修正動議的第一案 那委員我就不再贅述 剛剛已經有跟各位報告 委員是盧憲一所提的修正動議第一案好 請行政單位針對61條先做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10488.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10510.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
行稅版第61條 提案修正第61條那主要是在這個直轄市縣市政府提供聽語的障礙的部分的一些相關的服務的時候那我們把手語翻譯之外也甄列了有關同步聽打的這樣的一個服務做這樣的一個甄列 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10511.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10538.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那而各委員的部分那除了有很多的委員大概也都有這樣的一個甄列這個部分我們競表支持那而其他的委員此外那還有一些還有多委員有在這個條文裡面有不同的徵修的事項那主要的包括陳俊輝委員的提案的部分有提案是把現行條文裡面有關參與公共事務的部分修正為社會參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10539.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10559.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
也增加政府中央主管機關要增列相關的經費補助等等因為考量到現在有關相關部會在做手語翻譯跟同步聽打的服務主要的費用其實還是在地方政府來做一個相關的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10560.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10586.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那地方政府仍然還是以保障聽語者參與主要是以公共事務的權利作為資源配置的一個優先的事項那這個地方政府我們現在所了解基本上也都有根據在地的一些需求來去做相關的編列那這個部分的話我們建議是不是可以維持現行的這個條文規定的模式那第二個是有關武力華委員有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10587.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10611.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
對於現在要擴大服務的對象包括因為其他的障礙而有資訊傳遞的實際需求者那這個部分的話這個有可能會涉及到他是因為聽語障礙沒有辦法透過一般的口語那其他障礙他的一個需求溝通的方式的必要性他可能會有一個比較個別的特殊的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10612.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10630.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那這個個別特殊需要的時候是不是除了在現行的同步聽打或者是手語翻譯之外它可能是有一個個案認定的部分那因為現行的條文它本來就是有一個彈性來做提供服務的機制那我們建議這個部分是不是文字上面就可以不要做相關的甄列 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10631.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10657.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那最後一個是我們盧憲宜盧委員的部分有提案針對這個能夠提案去增列視訊遠距的一個視訊的遠距服務那這也是主要是考慮到原住民跟偏遠地區的這樣的一個需求那這個我們其實現在在科技進步的這個現在環境底下我們在109年就開始都請各地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10658.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10681.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
能夠來開辦手語的視訊服務這個部分其實在109年就已經開始了那地方上地方政府也有在發展一些線上的文字服務來讓這個聽語上的身心障礙者可以能夠更方便來參與這一類的事務那這個部分的話考慮到這一類的話尤其是那但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10682.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10700.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這個部分由於盧委員有特別有提到是要具備原住民族語的手翻跟聽打的服務這一類的話我們現在處理的方式大概都會是他可能要簡單的說就是需要翻譯兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10701.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10726.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
就是有一個從原住民翻譯成一個這個我們現在的同步聽打或手語翻譯可以去處理的然後再翻譯它會需要兩層的翻譯那目前也有提供這樣子的服務但是如果是一定要這個以條文的盧委員的方式要提供就是直接可以對於原住民尤其是不同族的族語的部分都直接來做手語翻譯或者聽打的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10727.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10746.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
確實在人才培育或者是以現在使用的量或者是這個訓練的方式確實是執行上面有一定程度的困難我們建議這是不是可以就不要再暫時先不在本法做一個比較這樣子一個強制性的規定那這是以上的說明好我們請陳慶威委員之後再請陳昭志委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10748.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10767.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
謝謝衛福部的回應那我這邊首先要感謝我們省兩天的法案在座有非常多的手語老師同步聽打翻譯的老師如果沒有他們我們是沒有把這些審查內容完整給整個社會的身心障礙朋友知道的但是每一個縣市有這些資源很重要而且要讓這些資源互通 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10768.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10786.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那因為接到陳情啦所以我特地就把全國各縣市縣市政府辦理手語翻譯同步聽打服務的情況調出來那翻開來你就會覺得他的城鄉差異或是各都市之間非常的大我們今天可以在這邊有這麼多老師可以幫忙我們像我們這邊同步聽打員共計29位服務的範圍內容1到10項裡面包括醫療就學 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10794.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10821.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
社会参与包括这个法律相关司法诉讼他这个服务还非常的大但是我随便再往后翻有一些县市好几个县市可能只有五位停打员甚至有一个县市是零位那服务的范围有的只有一两项而已那第一个我是想请卫福部的官员考量啦就是参与社会是反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10821.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10845.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
想要调整的内容更有包容性也符合公约的用词就像我刚跟您说的服务范围有生活就医就学就业通通都要帮忙不是只有参与公共事务所以如果可以把公共事务调整成参与社会那我觉得可以更加反映他们所需要被服务的范围那第二点当然您说 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10846.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10873.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
这个关于补助的问题我不争执不过我是希望卫福部是不是可以透过决议的方式可以把这样子的资源做一个行政网路的支持统合起来因为如果没有你们帮忙统合的话我想每一个县市身上的朋友他所受到的资源会落差太大了以上两点 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10874.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10883.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好這兩點然後再請陳昭志委員之後再歡迎委員來再請新任議員主席就是民眾黨團的版本還有我看到吳立華 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10884.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10906.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
委員等還有范委員等他們都有提到一個在聽語之外的講的其他其他部分當然我們自己有點不同不過就是說有其他的資訊傳遞的需求那這個部分剛剛署長您在回答的時候是說因為我們有彈性所以或許不會不需要就是說但是我想了解這個彈性是什麼那我先說明一下為什麼我們會提出這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10907.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10930.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
就是這樣的設計是一種從障礙的標籤走向這個需求的導向因為他有需求不管他是因為其他的什麼障礙而導致他有這個資訊傳遞的一些需求這個是比較符合障礙傳遞長期比較倡議的方向那署長你剛剛用一個因為有彈性那因為我們在字眼上看不到彈性在什麼地方所以再麻煩署長再說說明謝謝好再請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10935.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10957.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我的部分也是一樣就是同步聽打的部分這邊院版已經有接受了那我的另外一個一句話就是加入其他因障礙而有資訊傳遞之那如果你們已經實質上有做了我覺得在文字上讓他更明確化就是除了手語翻譯跟同步聽打之外有這個空間在那我們就可以與時俱進 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10960.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10966.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
因為現在科技的時代很可能其他的服務都有可能提供出來以上說明好 請一併回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10970.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10991.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
就各位委員所推詢的事項我大概做一個說明這個部分現在如果他不是聽語障但是他會需要申請這樣子的聽打服務或者是這個首番的案件的話我們其實是有做一個個案去認定去給他來做服務的機制各縣市大概也都有相互協調來提供這樣的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10992.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11019.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那我們大概這幾年也大概都有跟縣市政府去了解一下服務的狀況以去年114年為例那各縣市大概有申請這一類他不是聽語上者來申請同步聽打或相關服務的案件有超過500件那大概超過500件那但是服務實際服務呢大概95%以上都有得到服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11020.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11048.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
就是有申請的大概幾乎都有能夠提到服務所以這個部分在行政上的協助目前是實際上是有在執行而且基本上執行的狀況也到一定的是有一定的程度的這個部分先跟我來做一定的說明那這一類的部分的話其實因為在這個有關聽語障這一類翻譯的資源的部分確實國內來說它是一個我們儘量是希望它是一個通用性各縣市能夠協作的一個資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11049.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11069.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以我們在行政面的時候本來就是固定跟縣市政府就有一個相關聯繫的機制那怎麼樣去協助縣市之間把這樣的一個資源能夠來相互協調運用這個部分現在我們在聯繫的會議上面聯繫的資源上面大概都持續的有在做這樣的一個努力那也跟陳委員這邊來做一個這樣的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11071.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11096.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以您的意思是說假使他們這個縣市遇到問題的時候他們要先問您就是先從衛福部這邊問然後你們再到其他的縣市幫他我們是協調縣市政府間去建立相互協助的機制所以他不用等到有個案去找衛福部我們再去幫他找人他是縣市政府中間就已經可以很直接橫向的來協調把資源做相關的調用 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11097.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11119.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那我們是透過這樣一個中央的機制去push各縣市中間怎麼樣去做他們自己中間的橫向的協調所以每年我們會去調查說像這樣非聽語障的部分有申請服務的需要那這個只是我們事後來做相關的統計我們了解地方執行的狀況那參與社會那個部分您是可以調整的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11121.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11146.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
公共事務因為他們不只是做公共事務太多他們舉例啦就是他們舉例給我聽光是醫療生產門診就學青獅會然後參加展覽大社會大學的課程然後徵訊就是他的所有的範圍根本就不侷限於公共事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11149.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11163.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
跟委員報告這一類有一些像醫療或者是徵訊的部分那這個其實現在我們對於各個主管機關的部分它本來就會提供一定的服務本來就會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11164.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11179.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那除了在這個例如說他可能如果到司法徵詢可能地檢署他本來就可以提供一定的服務但是如果這個地檢署這個服務可能也許是量能也許是時間帶的關係那他也還是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11180.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11195.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
在這邊的話他還是可以依照這一條的規定地方政府還是可以來提供服務我們在解釋上面還是有還是有提供的像這一類的服務是有提供的那這個只是因為如同剛才陳委員所提到的那現在這一類的資源總體上來說國內在 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11201.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11222.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個國內來說這個並不是過剩沒有達到過剩的狀態所以呢我們是希望這一類的資源在運用的時候那當然還是這個以法律條文的設計來講那盡可能是聚焦在這個最核心的事項那在行有餘力的時候像剛才委員所提到的不管是社會參與這個有關社會參與的部分其他的不管像醫療司法等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11223.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11233.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那只要在資源夠的情況之下其實行政機關基於主動在資源能夠負荷的情況之下大概都會有提供好 這請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11238.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11253.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
就是很高興知道你們現在就是去年為例有500件就是不是手語跟同步聽打的那95%都有回應我覺得這樣是很好那這個很好的是放在條文中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11253.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11283.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
是让他被知道有这个服务那也许放了进去之后就是一年可以变成两千件那我们当然是希望能够做得到的部分就是帮助更多人因为这边我觉得他已经很明确说的是参与公共事务然后直辖市县市政府那这个应该是基本款参与公共事务是每一个宪法的公民的平等的权益所以我是觉得你们已经做的事情就加这样一句话 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11284.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11307.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
大家都知道到时候你们能不能服务难度太高了可能你就没有办法做到但是你原本500件有95%的能量的话应该是有机会因为很多人可能身障子他就是先看身心障碍者权益保障法看到61条会误以为说只提供手语翻译跟同步听打多了这句话也许你那个案件就会变多 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11307.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11320.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那当然你们能不能做到那其实那个就是在一个执行范围大家可以慢慢进步的所以不知道署长觉得放了这句话会造成什么困扰吗如果没有的话我是觉得放进去比较好 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11322.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11341.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
跟委員報告那這一條設計的時候我們大概會把它聚焦成就是只要寫進去雖然不管逮捕這個當然是沒有去設罰則啦但是直轄市政府就是非做不可就是非做不可那在非做不可之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11341.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11358.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那有些直轄市縣市政府就是在能力範圍內那就是盡量滿足這個現在我們像剛才提到像飛天宇這樣的有這樣的需求的時候在盡量滿足的情況之下現在基本上它就是盡量滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11359.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11387.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那這個寫進去的時候那就是這個必須滿足它就叫必須滿足但是如果是必須滿足的時候在法律上呢就會面臨它是不是需要評估它是不是一定需要所以在使用上的時候反而會變成促使更多的人來申請那他要去做相關的評估的時候這個跟原來設計的可能就稍微有一點點不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11388.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11411.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以我們會建議說以現在其實執行的部分其實已經有一些成果的時候我們是不是就先不要把它放進來但是在行政面我們會積極的來促請各縣市政府盡量的來擴大它服務的量能跟設計這個部分的話如果委員覺得可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11412.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11432.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
可以接受的話是不是我們就這個擴大對於這個其他障礙有資訊傳遞需求的個案那要求地方政府來盡量來促進來擴大服務的部分我們來試著賺你一個這個有關附帶決議的部分我不知道這樣是不是可行以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11434.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11454.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那個王玉敏先 對不起再換郭議員 抱歉這個這一條其實經費委員他提到的就是用社會參與這樣的概念我個人是非常的贊成因為事實上署長你也講嘛我們現在其實身心障礙者需求已經不限於是恰功的這種需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11455.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11471.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
醫療的事實上很多其實也有在做啦那有一些那個學校體系的就是其實也有在做那你剛剛也更講了就是說這其實沒有法則的這是一個沒有法則的條文也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11473.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11498.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個法條是要讓各地方政府知道就是說有一個宣示性的方向那既然我們這一次修法其實社會參與也是我們這一些身心障礙朋友很重要的一環那如果我們要鼓勵他社會參與我們的環境更友善更能去滿足他們的需求這應該是我們追求的目標所以如果這一個條文比較是往這個目標邁進的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11500.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11528.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
應該就是要比較更寬廣我覺得更符合我們的這個將來人家國際專家來審查報告的時候也會覺得我們是更全面性的關注這個身心障礙朋友他們的需求所以我個人是很支持把這個公共事務變成是社會參與因為這個本來就是我們希望身心障礙朋友社會參與可以多一點以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11532.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11549.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這條我也就是跟范雲一樣就是我也有特別納入就是其他因障礙而有資訊傳遞需求者那我覺得這個是擴大被服務的範圍啦那我覺得因為我們這一條全部都只有所在比方說是同步聽打或者是手語翻譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11549.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11565.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
但是其實身上朋友的需要被服務的範圍跟類型其實很多那有一些是包含就是他可能口語障礙或者是有一些可能是在所謂的這個視覺視覺上的這個全盲或者是視力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11566.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11581.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我是說這個葬別其實有很多不同的這個類型啊那我是覺得說把這個部分納進去也讓就是身心障礙的朋友知道說自己是有機會被服務的我想這應該不太抵觸因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11583.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11595.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個條文裡面也沒有特別寫說如果因為這樣所以地方政府他們沒有服務的時候會受到什麼樣的罰則好像也沒有這樣子的一個一個方向所以我個人認為如果把這個放進去其實是不是會更妥適一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11601.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11617.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
請慎重回應 盡量滿足我們會建議 剛才用盡量滿足的角度來設計條文主要考量是一個部分因為提供身心障礙者相關的協助跟服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11618.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11641.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
他應該不只是擔於政府的角色的責任而是在協助身心障礙者只要跟身心障礙者所有接觸的所以像剛才我們不管是交通教育或者是這個甚至金融服務的部分我們都希望這一些跟身心障礙者有互動的這些服務的不管在行業或者是處所 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11641.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11656.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
它能夠負擔起怎麼樣去讓身心障礙者跟他們互動的時候能夠便利和方便從這樣的角度來看的時候其實它有很多的社會參與的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11658.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11676.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們會建議是它是以優先是由這個社會參與跟他參與跟他互動的對象的部分盡量優先去擔負起怎麼樣讓身心障礙者可以便利的跟他自己來做互動從這樣的角度來做設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11677.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11697.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以我們也才會需要在不管是醫療或者是金融或者是交通的部分能夠讓這些服務的單位他自己先去負擔起一部分最基本的這樣的一個責任如果說我們再把所有的社會參與列在第61條的第一項裡面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11699.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11723.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個將來其實會變成是會變成在立法上所有要其他我們希望身心障礙者去做社會參與的其他各個行業或者處所變成我們要去立法去要求他去負責任不然只要這些行業不負這個他不主動去做這些通通變成政府的責任的時候我們覺得這樣其實對於我們所有的身心障礙的同胞 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11724.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11748.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
在社會上參與的時候這個某種角度其實這個讓設計上是不是能夠讓社會所有的行業或者所有的處所一起來參與到這樣的一個工作的時候或許對於這個我們身心障礙的尤其是聽語障的夥伴來說在這一塊來說可能是能夠做到更周全的一個協助和支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11748.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11764.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以我們才會建議說是不是有可能在這個部分是不是優先先考慮還是維持現行的條文的處理那能夠用一個直轄市縣市政府是在於除了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11768.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11783.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
公共事務以外的部分能夠用政府儘量來支持儘量滿足的角度來做這樣的一個條文設計以上跟委員報告也請委員能夠體諒 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11785.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11803.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
主席 因為署長自己也講了好幾次稍微讓社會參與來回應我還有其他委員的提問所以還是我們就先保留好了我覺得我們可以先保留請機關回去研擬想一下怎麼樣用更包容的詞語不要說只靠行政機關剛聽起來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11806.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11830.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你們量能不足所以行有餘力的時候才幫助到一般的生活面向所以採用最保守的詞句放進去那這樣子反而可能感受度會覺得好像資源比較多的時候才可以獲得到幫忙那是不是就先保留請兩邊的人都回去研擬一下是不是有更好的包容性的名詞這樣好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11832.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11850.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
好 這個OK啦 這個還是建議行政單位可能自己法條要調整的時候也要有進步的思維啦原有的法條第三項是一例項規定供所有翻譯服務應於本法公佈施行滿五年期 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11851.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11877.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
有說翻譯技術是技能檢定合格者擔任職嘛那你們現在自己去修把五年拿掉了就代表你們要進步嘛那相對進步的進步就有進步的把五年拿掉這個也不算太進步的一個思維所以應該是要把法條的那個內容要有比較強的一個可作為的一個宣示性的條文把它修正清楚然後也符合各位委員的這樣的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11878.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11906.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
是請社家族容我這樣的建議好不好因為你這個條文如果要把原本的參與公共事務擴大成為社會參與那基本上依照這個法條我是覺得會有很大的挑戰好先保留那我們繼續來處理院版所提六三條還有委員劉建國 蔡玉瑜 郭育琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11908.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11927.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
林月琴 蘇曉慧還有吳麗華王育民還有這個林倩琪還有縣行條文 那還有修正動議 第一案就是盧縣立委所提的 那請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11930.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11943.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
刑罪版第63條的修正草案那主要是申列第二項的條文就是對於第一項這個原來如果是由私人所設立的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11945.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11968.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
身心障礙福利機構那在一定的條件之下增列了就是只要如果是基於國家的中央政策辦理符合中央目的世界局官指定或公告的一些福利政策的時候那麼他是可以來接受政府的補助那這個部分的話其實我們大概這幾年大概例如說像主要是考慮到例如說像機構的公共安全的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11968.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11987.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那這個部分的話其實我們大概都會希望能夠透過補助來協助身心障礙者在機構裡面能夠得到更安全能夠有一個更安全的環境那但是現行的法令的時候其實就把這個這個私人設立的部分就完全排除在政府政府補助的範圍之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11988.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12006.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那我們覺得是這個部分好像才從照顧身心障礙者的角度來看的時候這個政策應該做適度的調整而針對各委員的所提的版本的部分絕大多數大概都和行政院的版本內容大概都文字大體上都相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12006.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12033.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那我們都競表支持那主要有不同的部分是盧縣醫委員的版本的部分有在提到就是針對如果是在原住民族地區設立身心障礙福利機構的部分是可以免財團法人的登記的部分那這個部分的話我們是建議這一塊的由於考慮到這個身心障礙地區在設立這類的時候大概還是我們建議還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12036.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12052.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
現行的部分的話如果他要求做財團法人登記的話他是要到一定規模之上那如果在原住民地區在非原住民地區只要他是在一個規模沒有這麼大的情形之下他本來就不用辦財團法人登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12053.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12067.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以我們建議這個部分似乎是可以維持現行的規定那就不一定要再做相關的甄列所以總結論就是我們建議是不是可以照行政院版的提案來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12068.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12094.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好 各位應該沒有意見吧 因為都大同小異好 那63條我們就依照行政院提案通過好 我們繼續要審查是63條之一啦 容我這樣處理好不好就63條之一 之二 之三 之四 之五 之六 之七那有委員羅美玲 劉建國 蔡易瑜 郭益勤還有陳清輝 林月琴 蘇巧慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12095.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12121.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
吳立華 王育民 萬美玲還有李昆城 還有現行條文的六三條之一還有六三條之一的第三項 六三條之一的第二項那相對的我就這樣宣讀一次 但是還是主條討論這樣比較不用再重複 再練各位委員的名字那當然這幾個條文六三之一到之七剛剛有委員提出來的相關的這個條文就直接對照 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12123.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12139.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
院板的63條從63條之一來開始審查那請行政機關先針對63條之一來做回應行政機關63條之一主要是針對這個身心障礙福利機構的負責人的部分有下列情形是不可以擔任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12140.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12167.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那本次行政院版的修正內容大概就是參照了其他相關的法規把這個有一些重大違規的部分的做一個相關的甄列包括像性犯罪然後像毒品犯罪等等我們把這些有一些比較嚴重的犯罪行為作為相關的甄列那跟各委員的版本的比照起來大體上條文的內容都有一定程度的相似性 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12168.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12186.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那主要大概比較不一樣的地方大概會有一個是在林月琴委員的版本裡面有提到就是希望能夠增列除了院版的條文之外能夠增列刑法妨礙性癮私及不實性癮向罪的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12187.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12207.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那這個部分的話我們建議我們經過這個總體的去檢視之後我們覺得這個部分確實是可能有納進來的必要所以我們建議這個部分可以做一個文字的甄列那其他各委員的部分的話總體上來說在罪名的部分大概都總體上來說是都相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12208.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12216.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那這次修正的時候這個不能擔當負責人的部分其他的有一些大概都是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12220.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12247.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
大概文字上會稍微有一點點出入總體上都相當所以我們總體的建議是不是可以去做我們建議是不是就增列在第一款裡面增加刑法妨害性癮失及不實性癮向罪的部分我們建議調整文字的部分有先投影出來在螢幕上也請各位來參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12249.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12263.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那署長已經把你放進去了對好謝謝為什麼因為我覺得今天為保障我們身心障礙者安全跟服務品質的話事實上我們參考了長照法裡面民地身心障礙機構應該設置院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12266.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12290.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那賦予明確的責任所以相對這個人事實上是非常重要所以我覺得這次很感謝能夠因為我們是參考而造全法的規定對於懲犯重大性犯罪暴力犯罪跟組織犯罪或其他嚴重傷害我們身心障礙者權益的行為者就要明定為終身不得擔任消極資格所以我覺得這是不錯的時候也是把我 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12291.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12318.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
覺得很重要的就是刑法妨礙性隱私跟不實性隱相罪畢竟他還是一個因為是機構嘛尤其有時候是比較封閉的我們很擔心可能對於身心障礙者他沒辦法求助那反而主管事實上是相對的是重要如果他有這些的一個罪行的話事實上是不適合以上所以我也感謝我們的衛福部把我的版本放入謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12320.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12344.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
可以 那請教委有沒有其他意見那各位委員是不是看這樣的文字 有意見我們再表達是不是請署長這邊要再宣讀一次63條之一是 那第63條之一 那這個條文總體宣讀如下身心障礙福利機構應致院長瓜胡主任一人並委專任對其業務副執行及督導職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12345.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12371.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
有下列各款情形之一者终身不得担任身心障碍福利机构之院长官副主任依惩犯性侵害犯罪防治法第二条第一款之罪性骚扰防治法第25条第一项之罪刑法妨害性隐私及不实性影像罪儿童及少年性交易防治条例之罪儿童及少年性剥削防治条例之罪经还起诉处分或有罪判决确定 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12371.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12393.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
但未滿18歲之人犯刑法第227條之罪者不在此限那第二款以下同行政院版提案好 各位委員如果針對這個文字沒有意見那我們是不是依照行政院提案及委員略請提案修正通過好 謝謝我們繼續來審查63條之二請行政機關直接說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12401.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12430.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
行政院版第63條之二的修正條文那這個條文也是增訂那主要是針對這個現行對於身心障礙福利機構的院長主任有相關的違規的行為的時候他是一定期間不得擔任和前一條不一樣是終身那這一條是一定期間不得擔任那他不得擔任期間的話原則上一年到十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12430.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12451.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那這個部分的話各委員的版本的條文大體上都還算總體的內容大概都相近那可能需要附帶說明一點是有關林月琴委員的版本在第四款那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12456.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12481.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
有客觀事實主任有傷害身心傷害者之餘的部分這個部分的話我們現在是建議這個部分的話我們會納入到行政院版的提案在第63條之4來做相關的處理那其他各委員提案大致上跟行政院版的提案內容大致都相當我們建議是不是可以就以行政院版的條文通過以上建議好 各位委員有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12483.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12490.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
如果沒有其他意見 我們就照行政院提案通過繼續處理六十三條之三 請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12494.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12514.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
行政原版63條增訂第63條之三主要是針對身心障礙福利機構的員工工作人員的部分那他是終身不得擔任那這個部分的話他的構成要件主要是參考第63條之一的第二項第一款到第三款第五款到第七款 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12514.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12543.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那這個部分的話跟各位跟各委員的版本去對照主要大概的大體上內容都相當主要會有不同的部分是曾經會委員的提案版本的有一個第四項的規定好那就是這個部分的話這個我們已經納到這個文字的建議我們已經納到行政院的版本的第63條之四來一併做處理那所以我們建議是否可以依照行政院版本的提案來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12543.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12565.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見 那沒有 我們63條之3就依照行政院提案通過 去處理63條之4 請行政院做說明行政院版本申列第63條之4 那是針對這個如果是有客觀事實 有傷害 身心傷害者之餘那主管機關任地不能夠執行職務 就不能夠擔任不管是院長主任 或者是工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12566.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12584.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那這款如果是他有這個狀況如果是消失之後他是可以經過一定的機制可以來回認那各委員的版本總體來說內容大致上是相當那主要有不同的部分是王玉民委員和萬美玲委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12584.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12610.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
在這個部分的話他的認定的機制有要求要由直轄市縣市主管機關要邀請相關的專科醫師這個兒童福利或其他相關的學者專家組成小組那考慮到這個部分因為我們在行政院版在這個有關組成的成員的部分目前是規定在行政院版的第63條之6那這個組成的部分也 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12611.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12625.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
觀念上面這個組成的部分我們也有納入所以我們建議是否可以依照行政院版本的條文來通過 以上好 申請各位意見沒有意見那我們依照行政院提案通過繼續審查六三條之五請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12626.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12643.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
行政院版第63條之5的主要這個是針對有一定的情形下那聲音障礙機構可以要求這個院長或者是工作人員可以停止職務並且可以去做調職免職撤職撤銷任用 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12644.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12670.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
之前然後退休或者終止勞動契約那這個部分尤其是在增訂了第二項在包括了調查期間就可以先行暫時讓他做停職的動作那以確保在避免在調查期間如果會發生有其他的這個不幸的事件那這個這樣的條文在各委員的版本大概都跟行政院版本大致上都一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12671.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12697.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
那主要有不一樣的版本是蘇巧惠委員的版本有增訂第四項的規定那對於在如果他沒有能在一年內來設置代理院長的話要增訂相關的罰則那這個部分的話在行政院版的第93條我們也已經有相關的增訂所以我們建議就依照行政院版本的條文來做處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12697.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12725.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見 那沒有 我們就依照行政院提案通過繼續處理六十三條之六 請行政單位說明六十三條之六那就是針對前面六十三條之一到六十三條之五這一類個案在做相關認定跟判定的時候他要由主管機關邀集法律身心障礙福利及相關的學者專家組成小組來操作那這個部分各委員的版本和行政院的條文大體上都相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12728.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12756.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那有不同的部分主要是舒喬會委員的版本有增訂第二項那對於這個對於執行有相關的一些執行細節的部分那這個部分我們這個我們覺得我們建議是可以不用做增訂的動作所以總體建議是不是可以依照行政院的版本來通過以上好各位有沒有其他意見那沒有我們就照行政院的版本來通過繼續處理六三條之七請行政院做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12756.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12777.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
第63條之7那主要是針對這個在身心障礙的機構的聘僱院長主任或工作人員在聘僱前要針對他是不是有這些不得任用情形去做相關的查證的動作那而各委員的即使在任用以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12777.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12799.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那如果也要去做相關的查證那這個如果有不適任的話因為要對於這個有涉及到資料的收集處理所以我們有訂另一個相關的收集資料處理利用查詢相關的一個辦法那針對各委員所提案的版本那總體上來說大致上文字都還算相近 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12801.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12825.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
主要這個王育民委員的版本的部分那這個要做一個定期查詢的部分我們是建議可以把它參採進來所以我們建議在文字的上面去做一個徵修和調整那我們的建議的徵修的文字在有放在目前在投影上面主要是在第63條之七第一項的最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12826.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12828.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12853.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12881.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那如果沒有我們就依照行政院提案及委員王玉敏等所提修正通過好繼續處理行政院所提第七十一條那修正都是盧縣立的第一案還有劉建國的第十二案那由委員煥雲黃婕劉建國 臺灣民眾黨委員蔡宇 郭益勤 何新淳廖偉祥 陳清輝林月琴 煥雲 蘇巧慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12884.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12895.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
俊瑜 林楚英邱若驊 吳立華 王育民盧憲一 萬美玲 李昆城還有現行條文七十一條那請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12898.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12922.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
行政院版第七十一條修正草案那內容規範的主要是針對直轄市縣市政府對於轄區內的身心障礙者要評估他的一些結果有提供一些相關的這個經費的補助而且不可以有涉及時間的限制那行政院版主要是增列在第一項第五款有關輔具補助的部分他的這個部分需要做一個定期檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12923.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12940.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
能夠去符合現在補助的部分能夠日新月異他的項目跟以及補助的項目以及這個金額的部分那有相關的爭議的時候可以去做相關的處理那而各委員的版本的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12941.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12955.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
因為它涉及到這個經費的補助的部分委員大概就有比較多的不同的建議那其中第一個是有范雲委員 范雲委員黃婕委員 廖偉強委員林楚英 伍麗華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12957.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12972.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
萬美林委員等等提案是不是要增列生理用品經費或者是有相關的食物補助那這一點的話我們認為這個有關生理用品的部分它其實主要還是涉及到一個貧窮的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12974.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12992.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那這個部分的話在現在對於這一類的這個月經貧窮的部分那主要很多國家是透過生理用品的降低他的稅率或者是透過這個比較經濟弱勢的民眾有直接提供生理用品的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12993.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13018.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那所以對於身心障礙者的部分那我們建議如果他是同時是確實是有這樣的一個不利處境的話在現行的食物銀行大概都有提供相關的服務所以我們建議是不是可以不用增列然後第二個有關陳俊宇委員和總召委然後邱若驊委員林月琴委員有提案增訂經費申請相關事項的辦法要每年定期檢討的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13019.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13034.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那這邊有關在生活補助費的部分那目前是現在在辦法裡面已經有相關的檢討機制那輔具費用的補助的話剛才在行政院版的提案裡面大概也都有也已經納進去這個定期檢討的一個這樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13037.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13059.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那另外在這個衛福部這邊在去年的9月有訂定一個身心障礙者輔具費用補助基準表的修正作業原則那這個作業原則就是讓這個有希望新增輔具或者是對於民眾補助輔具他相關在做審議的時候能夠有一個更 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13060.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13085.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
大家能夠共同來遵循的一個流程跟作業那這個部分的話在去年9月我們剛剛訂定出來所以這個目前也在正在運作的階段所以我們建議這個部分是不是可以讓現行的制度先運作一點時間那暫時先不要直接訂定到用授權去訂定法規命令然後第三點就是有關郭育群委員有提的版本有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13087.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13104.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這個在經費補助的時候是用個人所得用個人所得計算那這個這一點這個部分的話目前的話主要現在會跟現行各種社會福利制度總體來算大概都會有一定的大概都會有同樣的計算基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13105.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13121.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那包括這個是不是涉及到家戶或者是針對他的流量跟存量也就是會涉及到他的不動產的部分大概總體上在福利服務的部分各個面向大概都會有一個比較共通性的基礎的作業的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13121.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13139.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那大概也都是在社會救助法上面來做一定的處理那社會救助法本身在第五條第三項第九款裡面也針對一些特殊的個案已經有一個處理的機制所以我們建議這個部分是不是有機會可以不要做一個增列的動作那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13142.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13156.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這個民眾黨黨團提案有增訂這個不得有涉及地的部分這個因為這一條其實主要他的相關的經費補助還是由石家市縣市政府來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13157.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13178.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以縣市政府大概都還是以涉及人口數來做相關的預算的部分所以這個部分可能也要請委員能夠來做一個考量我們建議是不是有可能能夠先不納進來然後最後接下來在盧縣議委員的版本裡面有提到對於原住民地區離島地區的有一些輔具的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13179.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13203.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那這個部分的話現在各地方的府區大概都已經有一些不管是府區中心 府區據點或者一些便利的一些府區的便利站等等大概都有這樣的一些機制那這個怎麼樣來繼續來擴大給我們在偏遠地區的民眾來使用府區大概我們都持續的在透過行政上的一些計畫來做相關的加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13203.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13218.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那這個部分的話因為已經有現在有現有的一些機制我們建議是不是可以就先先簽補納進來增列然後另外有關武力化委員有提案建立到這個針對個人協助的服務費用的部分也納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13219.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13236.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那由於考慮到這個個人協助付分它是在自立生活支持底下那這個我們建議可能比較不適合在這邊單獨去訂經費的補助那我們建議先不納入那以上這個因為徵休的事項比較多那做以上的報告好 謝謝來71條來請歡迎委員再臨月請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13241.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13261.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這條就是我的部分有兩個一個跟武力華委員一樣就是多了一個個人協助服務費用補助那您剛講說別條有要不要放在這我是有點擔心因為這邊好像是統整性全部的那既然別條有所以放在這裡會有什麼問題因為有些東西在別的部分其實也會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13262.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13276.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那我這邊特別有一個就是生理用品的補助這部分是希望能夠務必放入因為剛剛那個署長的回應有兩點第一個你說這是不是應該從稅收這部分我們其實都問過財政單位因為台灣的營業加值稅其實相對很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13281.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13309.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
所以单项去处理的效益不是很高相对它的那个代价跟收获所以现在譬如说教育体系里面已经都有那个免费的生理用品的提供那大家在检讨的是说提供的方式各方面怎么提升那这里其实对身障者的话那已经有很多的研究看到譬如说联合国指出月经问题不只是妇女问题更是人权问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13309.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13336.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
身心障礙女性作為身心障礙者同時是女性的交織那這個問題不能夠忽略因為她其實就實務上我們也有接到陳情就是因為有家境可能相對來講沒有那麼富裕可是也沒有到中低收入戶的那會有家長因為身障女性在月經期間用品不足就不讓她出門因為這樣子在家裡可以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13337.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13365.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
比較容易去處理事實上就是不足的時候替換率不高的時候其實會影響生理健康如果說又不能出門的話還影響到心理健康過去我們也有接到陳情說就是相關的單位會說你就用你原來的補助去買可是我們就知道已經有非常多人計算過女性一生在生理用品上的費用這真的是高出一筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13366.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13389.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
所以我想这边既然你刚刚说食物银行其实已经有食物了那我们把它放进去让成是一个基本款是不是比较能够符合就是实际的需求也让这个部分不会被读漏那我想这个部分已经是很多的国家的政策那教育部也都已经把它当成是一个基本款了 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13389.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13405.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那離開教育體系的女性那其實在這裡我們可以增加一項那能夠除了避免月經貧窮之外那事實上我們剛剛所說的就是身心健康的這個平等也很重要謝謝來請林業勤委員然後再請行政單位一併回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13413.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13419.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
剛才署長當然有講到可是我想說你的說明因為我整列第四項跟第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13423.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13447.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
都既然都有定期檢討也有去調整價格也有這樣子的一個審議小組已經在運作那我都已經在做那入法為什麼你的考量會是什麼因為如果說什麼要是運作一段時間如果已經過去有運作了那到底這樣子時間不夠嗎那入法會有什麼樣一個妨礙嗎以上請說明一下來請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13454.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13470.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
有關范委員所提到有關對於生理用品的部分那這個部分的話我們這個考慮到大概以往在處理它還是一個屬於比較偏經濟面那尤其是針對所有的女性的部分大概都會面臨到的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13472.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13500.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以這個以往的大概也都是大概現有的機制比較多的大概都是透過比較多都是針對如果確實是在經濟負擔上有這個比較困難的女性那大概都是透過食物銀行比較多大概地方是透過食物銀行的機制來做一個相關的協助所以這個部分的話我們建議是不是有可能還是用現有回到現有的機制來在這邊來做能夠做一個協助和處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13501.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13528.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那這個是我們大概的一個建議因為這個畢竟這個生理用品的部分這個可能不僅僅是身心障礙的女性應該是所有的女性都會面臨到的需求啦那這個需求的部分那如果是在它畢竟還是有一個使用樣物品的種類甚至還有品牌等等這樣的一個不一樣每個人每一個女性有她自己的需求的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13529.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13545.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那我們是建議在這邊如果是以政府來做支持的角度來看的話是不是透過還是在針對經濟比較經濟上面比較有吃力的那透過食物的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13546.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13570.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
現在我們在地方上大概都有比較多的食物銀行來做這樣的一個協助食物銀行現在目前實際上的運作一般來說大概也不會完全那麼嚴格的限制在一定是例如說低收或者是中低收如同委員剛才所提示到的有一些確實事實上比較不方便的經濟上面確實有壓力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13570.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13585.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
大概在食物銀行的協助上面一般來說這一類的民眾大概也都還是願意來提供給他一定的支持所以我們建議是不是有機會從這個方向來處理而月勤委員然後月勤委員這邊所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13586.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13599.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個有關輔具的費用補助的後面的這個參與的審議機制的部分這個因為院版現在還沒有寫好那個我們是建議這個我們是不是整理一個修正動議的文字把這個有關在這個需要這個審議機制裡面要 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13603.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13626.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
身心障礙如果說他是要納入有關身心障礙者身心障礙團體學者專家行政機關還有產業代表這樣的一個共同來做研擬這樣的一個機制是不是可以去這樣納進來我們在文字上來做一個相關的增補我們同仁現在大概先初步先簡單朝你一個文字我們現在剛剛把它投影上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13627.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13653.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個稍微有點倉促那委員這邊可以過目看看是不是用這樣的一個文字當基礎如果有必要的話我們就再來修改看看我們大概先投影一個文字那請委員這邊來做一個過目那范委員這邊這個有提到這個個人協助的部分是不是能夠納進來那因為現在其實在這個個人協助的部分其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13654.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13675.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
大概政府其實是負擔絕大部分那大概民眾大概在負擔的時候其實是比較偏重在這個使用者付費的角度他有一部分的這個部分負擔那這個部分負擔的部分其實觀念上也是希望就是在使用的時候讓這個使用者能夠考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13676.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13696.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
它是針對自己實際真的有需要的需求的時候來做相關的運用所以這個部分我們是建議在可能的範圍內是不是盡量還是由這個我們使用的民眾自己來做相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13697.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13725.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
來做相關的這個來支付那如果確實是民眾他是已經到低收或者是中低收的這一塊那其實原來在我們個人協助的部分他的費用本來就已經可以不用支付了本來就已經可以不用支付所以在這一段的話是不是我們建議是不是可以先不要納進來以上的建議好 我這邊也補充一下啦這個最主要我們有一個修正的動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13727.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13755.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
那我的用文字是這樣在第二項並於每年定期召開會議依據當年度的經濟指數等數據進行檢討這個其實之前我剛來到立法院的時候就已經針對低收入戶就是這個中低跟低收入戶有時候就是社會救助法裡面有特別去提醒這樣的事情有時候我們看到就是一些假性的這樣的一個財產爭執 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13757.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13768.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那個樣態也蠻多的所以我們希望說可以以年度定期檢討的一個機制那要求做完機關是依據當年度的經濟指數如CPI還是說公告土地限制等 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13770.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13794.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
然後還有實際的很多樣態這個是行政機關應該有所掌握才對所以我們不希望說他因為假性的產產增值結果喪失的一些資格然後就是就所謂的排污陷阱這個是我們公部門應該要負起這樣的一個責任跟義務所以你也看近一來這個房價以公告土地的限制大有提升所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13795.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13814.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
很多的這個身障的家庭他並實際收入也並未增加卻因為持有自用住宅的價值正面調整那導致的財產總額已經超過了排物條款那無辜會喪失這個補助的資格所以我們希望要依據這個經濟經濟的數據去做檢討就是為了讓排物的門檻可以隨物價及地價的指數動態調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13821.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13834.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
避免因為社會救助網因同盟而破了洞這部分我就這樣做一個補充那所以你在你們的第三項裡面說第一項的第五款所訂的虎巨虎用補助式項目其實能定期檢討你的定期檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13836.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13849.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
邀請 這個是針對邀請的團體代表還有身心障礙者的一個比例來做共同研商 那比例好像也沒有出來 對所以這個部分是不是再詳細一點 請林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13853.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13872.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我跟趙偉的意見有一樣我當初我這邊寫的事實上是審議委員會我們當初在溝通的時候也是說你們有個審議小組那如果有審議小組和一個現在你寫的只是說延商共同大家來延商好像不是一個很正式的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13873.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13889.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
會議和我原本事實上是希望成立委員會有審議那你們講說你們審議小組我也覺得事實上是比較正式的會議這種寫法好像是一個也沒有比例而且我不太了解我當初寫的是說身心障礙者代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13891.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13908.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
民間團體專家學者還有產業代表可是這個寫法好像是說你單找一個人一個身心障礙者一個身心障礙團體然後一個專家學者然後行政機關跟產業我們如果是委員會的話都還是會去考量比例的問題可是你寫成這樣好像是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13910.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13928.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我覺得服務上費用要補助我是單一找一個一個嗎所以這個寫法跟我想要的真的事實上是有落差因為你如果沒有講清楚的話最後事實上這個會議也不是很正式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13929.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13947.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
只是有遇到的那誰主動提出來可是審議小組不太一樣或者是審議委員會的話是要定期召開以外是要定期提出來說現在的價格變動的整個狀況裡面要不要來討論以上是不是可以請我們的衛福部再做進一步的解釋來 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13953.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13978.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
有關抓委這邊的抓委員提到有關補助要每年檢討的部分跟委員報告一下我們建議是不是有機會讓我們是維持在定期因為主要是現在在尤其是在第一款生活補助費的部分現在是大概跟各種各樣的津貼八大津貼大概都是維持四年檢討一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13979.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13998.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
它當消費者物價指數CPI到一定程度的時候就會來累計到一定程度來做調整而這個部分的話因為它會有各補助它同時會有連動的關係所以這個部分的話我們建議是不是我們這幾個部分是不是有可能讓我們能夠維持在 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14002.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14017.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這個定期的部分來處理但是真的是每年的話確實是有跟尾報確實是有一些困難但是依照這個定期期間的經濟指數或者是消費者物價指數來進行監討的部分這個部分我們沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14018.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14037.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
因為這個檢討之後這些一定都是會納進去的那只是檢討的頻率的部分因為現在現行實務上因為他會跟其他所有的這個有關現金津貼現金給付的部分大概會連動的一起一併來做檢討這個部分在期間的部分是不是容許給行政部門一點點彈性跟這個跟照報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14039.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14058.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那另外月勤委員所提到的這個這個審議的人員的組成的部分那在先前的條文審議的時候我們就跟委員報告是說我們這個將來這個在輔具審查的部分的時候它的構成大概會包括三個面項一個是身心障礙者這個使用者那第二個是這個輔具的開發這個團體跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14062.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14086.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個有關相關探體那另外就是一個比較偏向第三方的學者專家等等這樣三個面向來組成那我們現在的構想確實是大概就是以身心障礙身分的部分大概至少不能少於三分之一這樣子來做設計那如果是這樣的話我們大概建議如果一個方式是我們是不是就這個人員組成的部分因為現在這個還在將來這個條文是要再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14092.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14110.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
是需要需要再去這個組織的設計還需要再去訂相關的規範那這個部分的話是不是可以容許我們用我們把我們研擬一個就如果這個比例的部分委員是覺得可以接受的話那我們是不是就先準備一個附帶決議來請委員這邊來做過目好請歡迎委員之後再請林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14117.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14138.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
針對那個生理用品補助我想再特別那個說明一下因為剛剛署長的意思好像是說我們走那個中低收入射救法也會討論這個部分或者是其他的那我剛已經講那個稅收的部分不可能因為台灣現在沒有像有些國家做到全面免費那我們就不用處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14139.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14167.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那在台湾的话现在的部分是说中低收入那个部分也还没有入法也是像您刚讲实务那学校里面有了可是现在检讨是方法的问题那可是针对身障女性因为你这个全面还没有做到的话那即使她不是中低收入的话那我要讲的事情是那有很多的说明跟研究都看到说因为身障女性她行动不便激励各方面的状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14167.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14182.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
她可能会需要更高的吸收力或者是频繁更换生理用品所以她其实花费比一般的女性更高但是她的收入其实是比一般人更低的所以这个结构的不利不是一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14183.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14212.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
你現在可以去處理的而是他這個生理性別就有這個差別所以你沒有放進去的話那其實真的會影響到就是生理用品不足那如果在替換的頻率變低等等各方面不只是他健康什麼感染皮膚問題外出受限社交退縮依賴他人等等所以他已經變成是一個人權跟公共健康的議題那不只是社會福利了那如果涉及到人權跟公共健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14213.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14231.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那所以因为国际的趋势就是普遍性有这个部分那我们台湾还没做到的时候你至少能够有不利处境优先或特别补助吧所以我还是希望能够把生理用品补助放在这那这食物或是经费的部分可以以后再处理以上好谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14236.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14250.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
我們知道剛剛署長這樣講是不是因為你要直接說你要負債券那如果那樣的話為什麼不要直接定在法理一邊比照我們過去很常就會說那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14251.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14268.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這些相關的要由中央主管機關去訂定就是不管事實上是資格或者事實上是比例也就是而且我還是認為你寫了一個好像要定期召開一個會那什麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14269.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14298.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那當初如果你們也有審議小組我不知道那個審議小組難道沒有什麼依據嗎甚至那個審議小組的存在到底是怎麼存在的所以如果那樣的話是不是可以有能夠去成立一個所謂的補助審議的委員會來做審查那第一個名稱比較精準清楚然後再授權說那這個由中央主管機關來訂包含資格跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14299.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14323.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我們的那個比例以上跟委員報告我們這一條處理一個階段之後我們就先休息用餐好不好用餐時間是要10分鐘還是20分鐘請王醫師指示提供專業的建立你們先思考一下不用緊張還要聽王醫師的指示好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14325.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14339.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我這邊拜託這個行政機關社交署這個這樣的修真的是很不恰當你們只有針對第一項第五款鎖定虎巨匯用補助資項目資金的因地請檢討其他都不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14341.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14356.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這是第一件事情那第二件事情剛剛署長特別回應到八大社會津貼是四年檢討一次嘛對不對這個已經在很快速變動了行政院針對老人老容津貼已經改為兩年了所以這會牽動到我們八大社會津貼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14358.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14384.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這樣的定期的討論可能不會再匡列再四年了所以是不是在我們生存法部分可以與時俱進我們可以先發動 這也不為過那第三個 歡迎委員一直提到的這個對於女性的這樣的生活用品的一個補助這基本上這個是一個潮流那應該是2019吧還是2020嘛好像是英格蘭先做起嘛 對不對那台灣是一個對 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14385.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14409.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
女性非常最重視的一個國家那我們先請來從女性的身上的朋友裡面來做這樣的一個支持那也不為過是不是真的今天要來修這個法律是不是請我們次長還有世家屬可以把這些都把它融入進去啦好不好那可以的話就把條文再做一個調整那我們先保留來 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14411.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14438.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我們現在在講女性 你有意見好 好 好 請說了 請說好 國保官不好意思 佔用大家一點點時間就是這個行政院版還有一些委員版本的第五項他寫說是參照行政程序法第127條第三項所以徵定可以通知本人或其法定繼承人來返還這個不符合請領資格補助可是行政程序法第127條第三項的返還的義務主體是受益人 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14438.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14467.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那民法148條第二項有明文規定繼承人的債務的清償以其所繼承之遺產範圍為限那如果照現在這個版本的條文會發生說這個繼承人所償還的範圍會不會以其所繼承遺產為限還是不管他所受本人所受領的金額是多少在這個人過世以後這個繼承人就不以繼承遺產為限全部都要返還這個可能要做一點點的釐清那是以上是司法院小小的意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14468.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14484.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
好謝謝郭法官的提醒那也請刑事單位針對這個內容是不是要做一些調整那我們這條就先保留那王醫師請指示休息謝謝趙偉的指示一般用餐正常時間是15分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14486.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14507.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
用完餐以後需要有未排空的時間至少要理論上30分鐘最好不過如果依照召委希望能夠讓整個我們的這個議程可以順利的話建議可以縮短到15分鐘的未排空時間所以建議中間休息30分鐘以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14509.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14524.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
好 這個是衛環委員會最專業的建議那各位委員有沒有其他意見那如果沒有的話現在是12點32分那我們是不是休息到1點10分繼續開始可以吧好 謝謝大家 謝謝好請尊重專業 不得有意義好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
17226.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
17245.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
好 现在开会现在讨论71条之2委员领阅请提案所以请我们的卫福部先做说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
17255.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
17268.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
有關主席所提案徵訂的第七十一條之二主要是針對前一條的輔具經費補助的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
17273.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
17287.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那應該是要能夠如果他的補助經費是屬於來自於不同的來源要能夠去統籌各目的事業主管機關的各自的業務的經費來評估去做提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
17289.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
17311.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這個部分現在其實在有補助輔具的部分其實現行包括其實不只是在衛福部這邊不管是我們的勞動部教育部其實對於這個在職場或者是學習的部分大概都有也有相關的補助的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
17312.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
17328.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那所以這個在財務的運這個在經費資用上面其實現行的政府經費資用的部分這個來自於不同機關不同預算的部分其實在資用上面確實是有一定程度的相關各種不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
17329.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
17355.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
的要求所以這個部分的話我們是建議是這個部分整合的部分我們確實是想辦法在在行政端目前大概各個部門都會盡量的來設計怎麼樣來去做這個貼近我們這個使用者相關的一個需要那目前在各個補助的規定裡面大概也都會針對其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
17357.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
17376.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
其他的領域大概如果已經補助過的項目大概原則上也都是用不重複補助的這樣的一個概念來去做處理那所以這個有一些那有一些場域裡面那事實上甚至是不是能夠就是跨部會的經費有一些目前也有少量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
17377.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
17404.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
經費他是可以這個怎麼樣可以組合起來去做運用的也有一部分的也已經有一部分像勞動部跟衛福部這邊在有一部分的這個經費的話他是可以來這個合併起來組合起來一併來使用也已經有一部分的這個場域來做處理那這個部分的話這個那在學校的部分的話則是有一部分的話會涉及到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
17406.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
17430.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
教學場域的它有的是補助到學校裡面供學生來使用當學生離開的時候這個設備是不一定可以跟著這樣的輔具不一定可以跟著學生畢業以後繼續來跟著走所以這邊確實是在不同的場域裡面有相關的一些要求那這個部分的話行政的部分我們可以來嘗試來繼續透過跨機關的協調來做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
17435.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
17457.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
討論怎麼樣來讓身心障礙者在使用的時候來更友善那這個部分的話我們建議是不是有可能因為他其實大概主要還是行政機關中間的一個協調和大家相互的一些討論那我們是建議這個部分是不是暫時先不定到法律裡面來這是我們這個初步的建議以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
17461.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
17471.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這邊因為剛剛署長解釋的事實上是教育 教育當然只有到教育現場的時候去用可是現在我這邊提到的是因為輔具的 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
17472.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
17499.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
補助經費 目前光你衛福部就分散在健保 社家署跟長照那本來資源就很稀少而且使用非常的零散 難以有效整合所以為什麼是希望你們這邊定辦法來統籌各單位經費來醫生藏者的需求來評估然後統一運用來提升他的那個補助效益在 否則的話有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
17501.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
17517.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
東西搞不好跌穿家屋 有的又變成事實上是沒有所以我才會希望說授權去訂定辦法來讓各目的事業主管機關依據他們自己的經費然後看個人的需求評估來給付這樣王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
17524.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
17539.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
在那個署長回應之前我是可以建議看看因為目前主席是希望能夠增訂這樣的在七十一至二嘛那如果說用附帶決議的方式來把這些內容含括進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
17541.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
17562.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
因為我們知道要訂定辦法其實尤其是跨部會之間有他一定的困難或者是現在執行上的一些問題那如果我們像很多的衛生福利資料如果有其他的方案來處理的話可以先用附帶決議的方式來做處理這樣看主席的意見如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
17563.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
17577.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
好另外一個退而求其次我剛剛提到就是說目前分散在健保跟社家屬跟長照那至少你衛福部的是不是可以統籌我覺得先不牽扯到其他的有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
17581.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
17602.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
跟委員報告即使在衛福部的部分不管是身障或者是長照醫療輔具的部分其實還有一個不同的部門其實現行的部分原則上就是基本上是用一個不重複補助的概念在處理彼此之間對於輔具的補助的項目就是同一個輔具項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
17603.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
17630.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
他不可以在就不要在不同的補助機制裡面同時去重複補助大概用怎樣的方式來處理那這個在討論的部分那當然行政上怎麼樣去讓這個有做得更友善這點我們是一直願意我們非常願意怎麼樣去努力把現在的這個機制去做到更更更貼近這個身心大概的民眾的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
17631.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
17650.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
只是說如果說在因為它同時會涉及到不同的法律跟不同的預算經費來源即便我們這邊在這邊做了以後其實在後面還是得要去處理各個現行法律中間它的那個法律個別法律規定的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
17651.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
17675.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那如果委員這邊這個主席這邊如果可以允許的話我們是不是建議這個也許參考剛才王振旭委員的模式我們大概從研擬去做這個輔具費用整合這樣的一個角度我們去試著撰寫一個這樣的一個附帶決議然後來給這個主席這邊來做一個參考看是不是可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
17676.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
17698.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
好那我同意那就麻煩你們把附帶決議的文字你出來那就不 七十二七十一條之二那就不予增訂接下來就是現在是七十四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
17699.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
17724.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
行政院版74條還有相關的那接下來就是行政院版74條有我們的羅廷偉委員 劉建國委員 台灣民眾黨還有蔡玉玉委員 郭玉琴委員 何新淳委員廖偉祥委員 陳金輝委員林月琴委員 范雲委員 蘇巧惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
17725.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
17745.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
吳立華委員 王育民委員 盧憲一委員 萬美玲委員李坤城委員 張雅玲委員修正動議有盧憲一委員跟劉建國委員那請我們的行政部門先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
17751.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
17774.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
行政院版第70修正條文第74條那主要是針對這個各種的傳播媒體我們把它在傳播媒體的部分做了一個更明確的規範然後也要求他不可以去做事與事實不符跟尤其是也擴大了這個有關對歧視或者偏見的部分除了本人身心上的本人之外也包括了對家屬的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
17775.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
17802.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
規定不可以對他去做這樣的一個歧視或者偏見的規範另外在第二項的部分也可以在報導的時候也不可以除了歧視以外我們希望在報導的時候也不要將有一些事情在事件剛發生的時候就直接先去做一個推論是不是當事人本身的可能是疾病或者是身心障礙的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
17803.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
17829.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
所以那同時增訂第三項就是任何人對於身心障礙者不可以公開有歧視的言行這行政院版本的部分那各委員的版本大體上除了在行政院的規範內容之外那各委員的有比較相對比較不同的地方是其中羅廷偉委員廖偉強召委那提案對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
17830.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
17851.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這個如果有公職人員民意代表的參選人的部分在這個部分的代表的時候不可以有相關誤導的一個規定有增訂相關的規定那另外廖偉祥委員也有同時提案增訂對於這個身心障礙者的配偶身心等內親屬共同生活的一些家屬的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
17852.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
17869.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
也應該如果會有遭到連帶的歧視的話也應該要去做一併提示的處理那這個部分的話其實和行政院版的部分在家屬的概念應該是相當的我們建議是可以融合進來然後另外第三點有關王玉敏委員萬美林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
17870.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
17894.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
有提案报导就是对报导的部分的这个文字可能要去做更做更细致的用发布报导散布或评论但是这个样子的话可能会我们是觉得我们经过讨论是觉得用这个文字的话相对来说它的范围会变得非常非常的大那怎么样叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
17895.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
17920.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
發布或者怎麼樣叫做評論所以我們是建議文字如果可能是不是先維持行政院版本用報導或播送這樣的話再跟現行法律其他的公開行為的用字比較一致在處理上是比較一致的另外在民眾黨黨團范雲委員有提到對於這個有關在歧視性的歧視或偏見的言論的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
17921.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
17947.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那除了家屬之外也要擴要擴及到所有的相關人員那由於這個相關人員的部分現在在現行法規上定義上面怎麼樣去定義相關去實務上會有一點點難度那我們建議是不是這個先暫時考慮以參考以行政版本用家屬的部分他的那個範圍相對比較明確是不是可以從這個方向來做一個考量那另外這個提案都有關報導這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
17949.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
17971.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
最後是盧憲毅委員是有甄定說不可以將障礙的成因或者是族群文化宗教性別做無根據的負面連結或標籤化那這個部分的話其實這個在文化的有關文化部分的話其實可能在身心障礙的部分是不是能夠去做這樣的一個連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
17974.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
17990.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
現行條文本來就已經對於這個跟事實不符的報導或者是誤導閱聽人的這樣報導本來就已經會有禁止而且會有處罰那是不是需要特別去明定針對這樣的有關宗教族群文化宗教性別等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
17990.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
18012.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
去做這樣的處理我們建議這個部分似乎是可以先不一定要拿進來現行條文在解釋上應該已經可以含括那中上建議那我們建議是不是如果可行的話是不是就先參考行政院的版本來做一個處理 以上建議好 委員有沒有意見 范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
18014.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
18041.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
这条我的版本是基于CRPT的22条的精神就是障碍者的尊荣与名誉不得受到非法的攻击就是没有任何的推论就是譬如说媒体报道中一些事情是因为障碍者的疾病或是障碍状况就不得这样报道因为原本只有传播媒体现在把详细的品项各种都有讲到不得有歧视的言行也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
18041.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
18059.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那所以我覺得這題要感謝衛福部有接受包含我跟其他很多委員的版本的意見那你剛剛講相關人員先不要放弱我覺得這個階段也ok可以接受所以就是表達支持願版 謝謝那其他委員有沒有意見陳昭志委民眾黨也支持願版這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
18070.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
18095.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那就照行政院版通過接下來行政院版的76條還有劉建國委員 蔡宇宇委員郭益勤委員 何欣淳委員 陳金輝委員林月琴委員 蘇巧惠委員 吳立華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
18098.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
18105.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
李坤城委員 張雅玲委員的版本那請我們的行政部門做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
18107.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
18133.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
行政院版修正第76條除了一些文字的重新整理之外主要是在甄列第4項對於身心障礙福利機構如果他有發現他收容安置的一些身心障礙者有遭受到一些不當對待的情況之下有明確的要求身心障礙福利機構要在至此不超過24小時之內要跟主管機關來做相關的通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
18134.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
18160.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那這個部分的話各委員的條各委員的版本基本上都和行政院修行政院版本的提案修正的方向是一致的那所以我們建議是不是可以就依照行政院的版本來做做一個通過以上委員有沒有意見沒有的話76條就照行政院版本通過接下來行政院版本77條那 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
18163.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
18181.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
劉建國委員 蔡宇宇委員 郭怡晴委員 何新淳委員林玉琴委員 蘇巧惠委員 跟吳立華委員跟李坤城委員 跟乍林委員的版本請行政部門做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
18185.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
18210.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
憲政原版修正條第七十七條主要是針對身心障礙者如果是對於這個有一定的情況對於這個法令或者契約對於身心障礙者有撫養義務或者是遭到不當對待的情況的時候那麼他這個縣市政府對於保護對於這些這個身心障礙者他可以一定程度可以去做安置必要時可以做緊急的安置 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
18210.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
18227.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那麼如果說有違反的時候我們在這次的修正版本裡面增訂了第四項就是如果是身心障礙者對於他是遭到不當對待的話他是可以提出告訴或者提起民事損害賠償的訴訟而且直轄市縣市政府要來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
18228.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
18242.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
協助的動作那這個部分的話各委員的版本總體上文字的部分跟行政院版的內容大體上是相當的那主要會有內容比較不同的部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
18244.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
18273.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
這個林玥琴委員的版本我們主席的版本裡面有提到這個部分要先是不是要先保以先保護後安置的這樣的一個調查原則那實際上這個考慮的這個部分的話大概目前在安置的部分大概都會考慮到個案的情況來去做相關的處理那因為這個草案有關這個會涉及到保護金的業務那今天本部的保護師的也有同仁到場那細節的部分是不是請我們的保護師來做一個進一步的說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
18276.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
18276.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
郭玉清委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
18283.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
18308.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那這條我是把原本分散在77條第一項然後還有這個78條跟79條的第一項的這個保護跟安置還有協助的一個規定加以診病那明確的希望能夠這個建立在這個身心障礙者的這個生命身體以及這個生活陷入高度風險的時候那地方政府可以及時的啟動保護跟安置還有其他的一些必要處理的一個法律的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
18309.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
18333.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
那同時我也在這一條裡頭就是明定就是可請求這個檢警協助那就是委託福利機構辦理安置還有在提起這個形式告訴的還有民事球場的時候由主管機關來提供協助那主要是這樣子的一個意義啊那就是把這個三條的部分的條文來做一個整併的一個這樣子的一個修改好以上其他委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
18345.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
18367.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
請行政機關先回應郭怡晴委員的原則上這一條本來是整併原來條文77到79條有關這個保護跟安置相關處域的一些規定我們把它做一個整合所以剛剛委員所提的版本其實跟行政院所提的版本修正方向是一致的所以我們原則支持那至於剛剛剛剛署長也有在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
18368.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
18390.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
這個版本比較不一樣的是林月琴委員在這個版本當中有提出一個原則就是希望直轄市縣市主管機關在接到這個個案的時候能在調查之前能夠先保護安置之後再來調查那我想我們非常理解林委員對於這個身心障礙者最大保護的關心這個部分我們理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
18390.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
18407.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
但是實務上因為身性障礙者他的處境跟他的個案樣態非常的多元那每個個案的危機跟風險程度也不太一樣所以現行地方政府針對這個危險的個案他的確會用緊急安置的方式先來做處理確保他的人身安全再來做後續的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
18409.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
18433.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
要考量這個社工對於個案有他個案評估處理的這個彈性還有各地的這個資源分佈可能不太一致所以我們是是否就是希望能夠維持這個行政院的版本來做一個處理好 其他委員有沒有意見沒有的話我這邊因為我要看我的有些你們大概就放在79條裡邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
18436.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
18463.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
所以這邊因為也把我剛剛原來並寫在78條的就是以先保護安置後調查原則原則上大概就警安的一環那我覺得也寫到必要時要有警安那你們也放在這七條原來這邊我就同意用行政院版本那其他委員有沒有意見沒有就按照七條就按照行政院版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
18471.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
18489.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好接下來就是行政院版本七八條劉建國委員蔡玉瑜委員郭玉琴委員蘇巧惠委員吳麗華委員李坤城委員和張雅琳委員版本一併討論請行政部門做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
18491.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
18515.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
行政院版第78條是建議刪除那主要是就是78條和剛才前面的77條已經條文已經做了一個整併那各委員的版本目前大概都跟行政院的版本提案是一致的所以我們建議依照行政院的版本的提案來處理以上委員有沒有意見沒有的話我們的78條就照行政院的意見刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
18518.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
18539.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那接下來以行政院版本79條那還有劉建國委員蔡玉玉委員郭玉琴委員何新存委員林玉琴委員蘇巧惠委員吳立華委員李坤城委員詹零委員的版本一併討論那請我們的行政部門先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
18542.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
18558.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
行政院版修正條文第79條那主要就是針對剛才前面第77條的有關安置的部分後續的安置所需的費用的處理那因為條原診病的關係文字重新做了一個重新的一個診病 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
18558.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
18586.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那在診病的內容也包括了增訂了有些包括這個在一定的程度的時候這個生意障礙者是不是富良義務人員有一定的程度是不是可以去免除掉一定的條件下可以免除掉他的負擔這個有關的這個安置的費用等等那這個各委員的版本大體上來說和行政院的版本有一定程度的概念上大體上都還相近那主要的不同是 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
18587.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
18614.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
在我們劉建國 劉昭偉的版本裡面有增訂一個有關費用返還的程序得檢清或者免除事項在授權的部分有增訂一個授權那這個部分的話我們是建議由於這個有關費用的處理現行已經都有一個很明確的機制現行在運作的時候並沒有一般這個並沒有一般的治安難行的地方我們建議是不是有可能就不予增訂那因為這個條文也是跟前面一樣是有保護性的業務的有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
18615.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
18639.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那細節如果委員有詳情的話可能我就請我們的保護士一併來協助跟委員來做說明以上其他委員有沒有意見郭法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
18643.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
18660.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
主席我们只有一个小小的意见那这一条就是有关那个追偿那个抚养那个安置费用的部分这一条的追偿范围是这一条的追偿范围是就是那个本人跟抚养义务人就是抚养义务人 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
18660.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
18676.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那抚养医务人在民法上抚养医务人还蛮多的包括所谓的直系血清杯亲属兄弟姐妹家长家属跟父母好那这个部分我们是有一个建议是说因为通常只有第一顺位的抚养医务人会有减轻免除的室友第二顺位就不会有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
18677.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
18704.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
所以如果第一顺位免除了以后会变成第二顺位的要承接他会被追偿那我们实务上会有出现这种第二顺位他不能接受因为第二顺位不太会有减轻免除的事由那只是一个小小建议是不是要参照老人福利法41条第三项的规定把那个追偿的医务人再做一定程度的限缩那老人福利法是限缩在本那个仔细写配偶仔细写情跟依契约付有照顾义务之人这是一个小小的意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
18708.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
18733.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
來我們的衛福部謝謝司法院國法官的一個建議跟提醒但是生意障礙者因為他的樣態的確跟老人相比是不太一樣的例如食物上我們也曾經有看到就是說有父母他因為擔心這個生意障礙的手足所以他把這個財產費用都交給這個生意障礙的手足 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
18733.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
18758.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
但是他之後他卻不負擔這個撫養或者是照顧的義務那這一塊其實如果我們把他限制在這個直系血腥悲親屬或尊親屬可能就沒有辦法再去做一個追查或規範所以我們建議是不是還持維持這個院版的條文來做處理那家委有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
18762.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
18784.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
切9條我們就按行政院版本通過那接下來行政院版本80條合併劉建國委員 蔡玉委員 郭怡晴委員蘇巧惠委員 吳立華委員李坤城委員跟詹仁委員版本一併討論那請行政部門做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
18786.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
18813.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
行政院版修正草案第80條主要是第一個是針對前面調適的診病的部分做了一個文字的處理那第二個就是這個我們統一的把安置的名稱從緊急保護安置修正為緊急安置那在文字上面做了一個整理那各委員的版本基本上修正方向都和行政院的版本一樣那我們所以建議是不是可以依照行政院的版本來做處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
18815.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
18840.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
其他委員有沒有意見沒有的話 我們的八十條就按照行政院版本通過接下來有羅廷維委員第七章之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
18843.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
18862.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
廖偉祥委員第七章之一請我們的行政部門做說明感謝 我感恩你 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
18865.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
18881.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
來 請說明啊 好快說明啊這個羅廷偉委員和廖偉強召委分別都有徵訂第七章之一有關請求權基礎的部分那有關請求權的部分其實在行政院版的第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
18882.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
18898.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
有關在第16條 行政院版在第16條已經有明訂那對於請求遭受歧視的時候他是可以請求損害賠償而且可以包括不限於財產上的損害所以這個部分的話我們是建議因為16條目前應該還是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
18906.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
18926.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
但是我們是建議說這個概念上他16條的這一項其實已經是一個請求權基礎那所以是不是還有需要在這個單獨用專章來訂定那我們是建議這個部分也許是可以再做一些考量不過這個部分因為這涉及到請求權部分可能還是要徵詢不管是司法院或者是法務部的意見以上來 請司法院郭道華官 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
18931.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
18955.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
謝謝那基本上我們的意見是同位服務因為16條已經有這個損害賠償請求權的規定所以我們建議是在16條做處理而且這些裡面其實這些文字都有一些問題也會產生一些跟那個國家賠償的規定到底怎麼去去進合還有像是律師報酬有提到有關請求律師報酬的部分這個律師報酬目前名 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
18956.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
18975.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
一審二審的民事訴訟是不能請求律師報仇的那我們特別把這樣規定進來我們覺得會出現未來會出現相當的一個難題所以我們建議有關這個民事請求權的基礎就回到16條的去做規範應該就是很充足了謝謝好謝謝 國務部萬三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
18980.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
18999.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
跟主席還有委員們報告我們的意見也跟司法院還有衛福部剛剛有的說明是一致那既然這個院版16條第三項有設計這個申訴管道那我們來看加上我們看這個委員們提的請求權的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
19000.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
19018.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
在民法的部分他也是只有引用部分的條文那可能會有掛一漏萬的情形那在而且這個民法或者是國家賠償法已經就這個民事侵權行為的損害賠償責任還有國家賠償責任設有一般性的請求基礎而且有完整的配套規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
19019.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
19033.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那如果我們在這裡另外增設請求權的基礎而且只引用部分的條文這樣的一個設計可能還需要再斟酌那這樣的設計呢 性質上其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
19035.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
19059.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
這樣的一個規範跟我們民法的184條以下的侵權行為責任還有人格權的保護都高度的重疊可是卻沒有明確的處理跟民法還有國家賠償法行政訴訟的適用關係還有競合的原則所以我們建議還是以院版的條文設計透過合理的調整義務搭配現在已經有的民刑事還有行政救濟的途徑來處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
19061.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
19087.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
好謝謝所以衛務部還有司法院法務部看法一致那就看委員各位委員要不要一致各位沒有表示意見就代表一致好那我們是不是就第七章之一他連動的是廖偉祥委員跟羅廷偉一個是83之一一直到83之九另外一個是85之一到85之九 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
19088.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
19115.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那我們這容我這樣處理看各位有沒有其他意見因為剛剛這個院跟兩部都已經這樣做回應了在16條裡面就足以來做這樣一個處理所以第七章之一一直到剛剛跟各位宣布的這兩個所提的條文我們就不予甄定好可以了好謝謝好那我們繼續處理第七章之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
19116.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
19116.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
請行單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
19123.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
19151.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
有關羅廷維委員有這個提案增訂第七章制裁禁用司法及其他救濟之保護那這個部分的話其實在這個司法禁用的部分現行條文在第84條裡面已經有相關的規定那第84條也他其實現行的主要就是一到兩個條文那以法治罪的結構來看其實應該是不太需要做一個特別的分章 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
19151.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
19177.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那因為主要是因為羅委員的部分他後面有相關比較多的條文設計所以要去訂章節那這個部分我們建議如果是可以後是可以採取行政院版本的話那這個部分是可以章敏可以不用增訂以上好謝謝那其他單位要補充嗎沒有好那各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有我們這一個就不以增訂來通過好繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
19182.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
19195.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
84條有劉建國委員所提的修正冬季第12案那還有委員范雲羅廷偉委員郭益勤委員還有范雲委員還有這個現行條文並按來討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
19201.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
19226.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
84條的部分主要是針對司法在運用過程中的禁用的部分那這個部分因為主要還是涉及到不管是法務部或者是司法院相關的這個司法法規的操作那是不是建議就請我們拜託司法院和法務部來幫我們做一個說明以上好 剛剛可能漏掉民眾黨團有提案 對不起來 抱歉好 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
19231.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
19254.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
來 郭委員 你要先說好不好 讓他先說然後再請陳教授委員 再請歡迎委員來 請郭委員針對委員所提的這個司法金融保護我們司法院的原則上我們都上次我們說過我們都同意就是這些是我們司法程序一定該做的事情那我們也同意在這個條文裡面除了現行的必要的無障礙措施以外會去列入所謂的合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
19254.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
19279.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那先針對一些委員版本的問題我先簡單說明一下第一個是委員范雲的版本的第84條裡面他有提到一個所謂的必要的協助然後再把這個必要的協助已經如列出的非常細了然後又要授權我們再去訂必要協助措施的辦法這樣也沒有必要 這個第一個要請大家再考慮一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
19280.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
19297.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那再來就是這個犯刑委員版本的第三款規定這個刑事被告或犯罪嫌疑人因心神障礙心智缺陷無法為陳述者要給他申請法院指派輔佐人還有涉及本刑三年以上之罪的時候要有律師陪同 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
19297.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
19327.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那其實現在的身心障礙者的司法禁用不管是在警巡 偵訊跟審判程序都可以依照法律輔助法的規定或者是衛福部所辦理的法律輔助專案來申請法律輔助所以也沒有必要再訂這樣子規定其實我們是建議在審酌還有一個就是那個所謂的本刑三年以上之罪我們不太清楚那個是最輕還是最重因為那個在法律上會差蠻多的就是這個文字上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
19328.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
19347.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
還有有委員有委員在那個條文裡面有提到就是因心神精神障礙或其他性自制權而無法為完全之陳述精神障礙或智能障礙的這個部分這個部分我們刑事訴訟法本來也是類似的規定不過我們刑事訴訟法在112年35條第3項已經修改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
19350.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
19378.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙是無法為完全之陳述也就是把那個條文的文字做了一下修改所以請委員參佐是不是這個文字要做調整那有關有委員提到說要再由我們再去訂那個具體的辦法其實這個上次也跟委員會報告過我們司法院在113年就聽起過這個身心障礙者團體的意見以後已經去制定了這個所謂的禁用司法的指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
19379.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
19395.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那CRPD的司法禁用權跟程序調整也具有國內法的效力所以法院本來就應該要遵循所以我們已經有完成指引也經過爭取身心障礙團體的意見是否還需要再授權行政院來會同我們去訂定這樣子的辦法這個再請委員斟酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
19398.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
19415.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那再來就是其實我們是建議不需要在下84條裡面的這些無障礙措施做這樣一到八款的這個具體明確的這麼細緻的羅列因為每個訴訟的個案他其實要照照個案的需求去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
19416.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
19432.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
所以我們建議是不是就用文字比較簡單就是說在84條就是規定說我們要做提供必要的無障礙措施及合理調整或程序調整然後再把相關的這些大象的項目放進去立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
19432.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
19461.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
其中我要特別提到幾個八款裡面的幾個點第一個是第三款的法律援助容我跟大家報告一下法律的輔助其實不是法院跟檢察機關在提供的法律輔助的提供者是國家他提供的形式也不一定是透過法律輔助基金會他提供的形式有可能也是提供像家庭暴力他是提供律師費用的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
19462.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
19479.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
所以把它列在這邊當作是法院或檢察署的義務恐怕是超過法院跟檢察署能夠承擔的範圍法院最多只是可以去促請他告訴他說有這樣子的法律協助的資源去運用而不是讓法院自己來提供法律協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
19480.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
19505.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
那再來就是有關於申訴機制的建立這一塊那我再跟大家報告一下就我之前也提過我們在法律的程序中如果對於這樣子的程序也沒有盡到法定的義務其實應該是要透過訴訟程序的程序去處理包括異議 抗告 上訴我們可能沒有辦法去建立一個訴訟程序中的申訴機制那以上是司法院的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
19507.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
19521.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
好 那先請陳導師委員再請歡迎委員好 謝謝主席84條的核心核心就在於身心障礙者能不能在司法程序當中實質去行使他作為當事人或是與證人的一個程序上的一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
19522.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
19550.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
很多障碍者跟我们反映在实务上往往因为标准还是不清楚导致各法院检察官做法的不一样检察机关做法会不一样障碍者也难以主张或申诉刚刚郭法官虽然说现在都有所谓指引但是指引还是有它的缺陷指引本身不够明确障碍者也希望是比较用明确的方式把它写出来所以我们民众党的版本就明确引入 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
19551.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
19567.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
平等禁用司法與合理調整的概念所以我們才具體寫出了資訊無障礙 文件簡化溝通普具 手語翻譯等調整方向我們的目的不是在限縮司法的裁量而是讓這個程序障礙在事前 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
19568.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
19584.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
就可以排除那我們也希望能夠要求相關的配套由主管機關會同司法院法務部及身心障礙團體共同來訂定確保這個制度是一致的一致性跟他的服務品質這以上是我們希望能夠做到的謝謝好再請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
19591.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
19613.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
謝謝昭緯我的部分謝謝剛剛法院這邊的一個說明你的意思好像是說我這邊所提出來的包含法律程序設備的無障礙資訊的無障礙還有訴訟程序的調整司法人員的培訓這些你們都已經在做了有做到關於法律援助的部分你覺得好像不應該放在這因為這比較是針對法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
19616.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
19637.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
我的想法是這個當然也是CRPD的第13條裡面公正審判跟禁用司法的權利根據民間團體提供的資料其實身心障礙者他成為受害者的比例是非常高的相對於他成為所謂的加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
19637.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
19652.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
那另一方面就他就算成為被告的時候有很多時候也會因為他不了解被指控的事情對法官所說的東西理解或不理解使他處於一個不利的處境那我想這非常的重要不管他是成為 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
19653.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
19670.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
受害人或者是他被告的时候不了解这个没有平等了解法官整个体系的过程所以这一题其实蛮重要的那刚刚你讲如果我们相信你都做到的话那我想请问关于我原来的条文中希望放的监测与评估 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
19671.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
19686.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
這個部分就是建立監測機制定期評估司法系統對身心障礙者的服務效果並根據評估結果進行改善那這個部分司法體系現在有在做嗎以上一個問題來 請一併回應好不好來 國道法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
19698.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
19716.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
謝謝趙智委員跟范雲委員的指導那有關那個民眾黨團版本要彰顯CRPD第13條所以在那個一開始就把這個平等參與這個放進去這個文字上其實我們沒有太大的意見沒有太大的意見因為我們認為這是可以做一個凸顯的就是前面那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
19719.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
19737.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
那有關范雲委員提到這個監測與評估其實我們司法院有一個人權委員會我們有定期在做各式各樣就是所謂的司法中弱勢團體的各種的政策的一個評估一個監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
19738.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
19760.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那我們也同意說如果未來要放的話我們是不是做一個附帶決議就是明文規定說我們這個由司法院院長主持的這個人權評估委員會要納入所謂的身心障礙者的代表來促進這些弱政策的落實監督跟改善看能不能用這樣子的方式去處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
19762.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
19786.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
不好意思那個郭法官因為剛剛您在回答我的時候馬上有身障者在反映說法服有一堆人都進不去用不到耶這個陳委員我跟您特別報告一下這件事我非常關心所以我早上來的時候還在追問根據現在法律輔助法第五條的規定如果當事人他是有神經系統構造 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
19787.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
19815.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
或精神心智障碍功能损伤或不全无法为完全陈述于侦查审判中未经选任辩护人或于审判中未选任代理人经任有选任必要的时候这是可以转介为法律辅助而且这个法这个法律辅助只要是法官一转介是不用审查之力的我也转介过我也转介过就是针对监护宣告的案件只要一转介就是一定会有法律辅助进去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
19816.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
19844.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
而且不審查之力已經做到了但是不代表很多人都做到所以他們現在此刻還在強調那沒有問題這個規定我們司法院一定會負責加強宣導這個真的是法律上明文的規定就在這邊其實是有一個法律輔助的保障而且是透過現行的法律輔助的機制我們可以知道為什麼還有那麼多聲音或是說你可以給我們什麼資料了解那為什麼他們還覺得這個部分困難度很高障礙很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
19848.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
19869.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
我跟委員報告我剛講的那個規定不只是適用在刑事程序在民事程序也一樣喔只要是身心障礙者我們認為他有需要我們就會斷接因為我自己是民事法官我法沒有在沒有在刑事程序總有過那一條那我不知道這個法規的落差跟現實落差到底是出現在哪邊那可能我們回去要做一些了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
19870.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
19885.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
那就是是不是麻煩郭法院你再把在負債局稍微把它寫一下因為確實是身障者他們確實是有特別提出這一點好嗎好不然如果說沒有辦法就文字做個明確的說法我們可能也會要求保留不好意思好那請寬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
19887.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
19915.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
對 我的部分也是希望說除了剛剛那個法律援助他希望說有個附帶決議很清楚之外那個關於司法人員的培訓能不能提高對身心障礙者需求的理解跟敏感度還有監測與評估剛剛你講你們的人權委員會裡面要有身障者這個部分也都寫那個附帶決議好嗎如果確定之後都有在做或在改善中的話那這一條就可以不用保留謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
19917.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
19927.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以就等過關提出那個提供負責權益的文字之後我們再處理啦還是要先保留嗎還是現在可以解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
19930.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
19959.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
你的能力可以了我現在解決好 你處理吧好那我趕快去處理一樣還是要保留先是建立不予增訂啦對我們還有第二輪好不好所以就依照這個不予增訂來處理那當然要過完等一下把文字弄出來再請兩位委員各位委員再過目再看怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
19960.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
19982.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那我們繼續處理羅廷委員所提的84條之一對不起 對不起 對不起有換議員的84條之一台灣民眾黨團還有郭玉琴委員所提的84條之一來 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
19991.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
20016.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
有關范雲委員 臺灣民眾黨團和郭育群委員大概都有提到就是在身心障礙者涉及到各類行政程序然後訴願或者其他行政主辦聲明不符的行政救濟程序的時候可以根據他的占別來提供協助那由於考慮到這個訴求的內容這個在有關各類這一類程序的內容會涉及到有關包括像行政程序法 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
20017.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
20039.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
然後訴願法等等的規定那這個可能都是會涉及到由法務部或者是由司法院的主辦的法規那我們建議是不是可以有可能請是不是可以請法務部主要應該是在法務部這邊請法務部來幫我們來做是不是來這邊做一個說明這樣那更正剛剛那個84條是建立維持現行條文的應該是這樣對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
20046.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
20073.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
然後現在處理84條之一 那各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有 是不是就維持現行條文來通過 好 謝謝對不起84條之一是要增訂 所以就建議不以增訂來通過 各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 好 那我們就照這樣處理那繼續處理是這就容我這樣處理 這是委員羅廷偉所提的84條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
20075.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
20079.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
一直到84.2、84.3、84.4、84.5、84.6、84.7、84.8、84.9、84.10、84.11、84.12、84.13那這部分請行政單位做一個說明好不好是不是要我們一併來做討論跟處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
20100.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
20123.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
這個有關羅廷偉委員的增訂的84條之一到之十三的部分總體來說大概也都是跟前面建議增訂的84條有相關的關聯那都是針對在訴訟程序或者刑事程序中的部分能夠去增訂有一些相關協助的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
20123.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
20150.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那這個參考剛才對在八十四條的處理的模式我們建議是不是如果八十四條如果是這個維持現行條文然後由司法院這邊來提出一個這個附帶決議的話我們建議羅委員的八十四條之一到之十三的部分是不是建議可以統一不予增訂以上好 各位委員行政單位建議就不予增訂各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
20153.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
20159.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
不是不是 羅庭委員所提的84條之1一直到84條之13這個應該是有跟羅委員溝通過啦沒有沒有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
20166.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
20195.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
好 那就容我這樣處理 羅廷委員所提的84條之一 之二 之三 之四 之五 之六 之七 之八 之九 之十 之十一 之十二一直到之十三 就不予以增訂好 謝謝 這樣通過繼續處理 對不起 歡迎所提 歡迎委員所提的85條還有一樣羅廷委員85條 還有現行條文還有劉俊偉所提的修正動議第12案那我們請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
20196.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
20225.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
第85條第85條行政院版本是沒有修正那針對有關范雲委員的范雲委員有兩個版本然後羅廷偉委員的版本第85條的部分因為這個都涉及到在矯正機關以及刑事收容過程中的一些如果是聲音障礙者的相關的權益保障那這個部分我們是不是可以建議請這個法務部來表示意見以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
20233.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
20252.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
主席還有委員報告我們有關第85條的修訂因為身心障礙者依法收容在矯正機關的時候其實相關的規範我們也都有遵行特別是監獄行刑法的第6條第3項 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
20255.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
20281.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
監獄應該保障身心障礙受刑人在監獄內的無障礙權益並採取適當措施為合理調整現在的法制就這個保障身心障礙受刑人的無障礙權益還有合理調整原則其實是已經有一個明確的規範那這個法律的層面如果在這邊我們如果定原則性通犯性的規定因為操作細節性的規定如果定在這邊我們是不是建議因為我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
20284.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
20308.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
依照監獄行刑法的條文其實我們是有訂了一個處遇計畫就是矯正機關身心障礙受容人的處遇計畫那這個計畫中呢已經有把這個教化輔導還有作業計訓生活適應醫療面向的調整措施都有做了具體的建議是可以做實務上的執行那至於裡面有關這個輔具的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
20309.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
20337.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
這個身心障礙者的輔具需求的補助跟提供其實應該是屬於社會福利事項那也是可以依照身心障礙者輔具費用補助辦法來申請那是不是要由矯正機關提供的必要請委員們再考量那另外依照WHO對收容人這個醫療是採取這個監鎖健康主流化的精神也就是現在收容人使用的醫療資源應該要與社區民眾相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
20337.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
20365.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
所以呢我國已經將收容人納入健保是由衛福部的中央健保局委託保險醫事服務機構到矯正機關裡面提供健保醫療使收容人接受跟民眾相同的健保資源就不用再由矯正機關自行聘請醫師來整治所以有關提供身心障礙收容人的輔具資源都跟社區民眾應該相同那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
20368.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
20389.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
我們現行上到底這個監所的這個收容人他們在面對這個特殊的狀況我們是怎麼樣的處理我們那個矯正署的副署長也有來是不是請副署長做一個說明比較詳細讓委員們了解現在處理的情形好 請副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
20394.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
20410.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
謝謝委員那陳儒剛剛提到的我們在監獄刑刑法的第六條裡面第三項已經有為這個保障身心障礙受刑在監獄內的無障礙的權益然後也採取了適當的措施為合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
20411.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
20434.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
那矯正署這個地方也訂過了這個指引還有這個機關裡面的身心障礙的一個受容的一個儲育計畫那在這邊來講就是我們在實務上來講如果對於這個輔具那我們在接見的時候家屬也可以寄進來那平常的時候受容人也可以自行購買那如果說他本身都沒有他必須要自己購買的話我們也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
20435.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
20454.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
協助他申請然後那至於其他的話就是依照我們之前訂定的儲育計畫來去執行那因為我們在機關裡面他身心障礙的障別有非常多種然後他的程度嚴重的程度又不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
20455.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
20481.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
那實際上我們因為它這個實在是太多元也太複雜所以機關裡面在提供這項輔具可能有它的難度而且可能也會製造一些管理上的一些困擾跟糾紛所以在這個地方懇請委員們是不是在這條裡面對 我再補充一下剛剛講的那個職前訓練我們不只是職前訓練在職中的一個訓練我們都有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
20482.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
20510.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
那這部分就懇請委員是不是能夠在85條第二項第三項免增列謝謝來委員有沒有其他意見來請歡迎委員那個副長講這個是有問題的因為這樣聽起來就是說我們本來我本來想要增加的條文還有那個羅廷偉委員你們已經都在做了嘛那我只想問一下就是那我條文中有一個矯正機關所屬人員應定期接受相關的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
20512.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
20528.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
就增加了解跟敏感度不知道有沒有為什麼會有這個條文因為民間團體有看到說就美國法務部的資料聯邦監獄中有高達38%的收容人具有某種形式的身心障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
20529.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
20555.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
如果在矫正机关因为它不只是惩罚也有一个教化的功能跟教化相关的方案如果没有去处理这个部分的话可能它原本的身心障碍的程度不管是智能或者是心理社会的障碍在监禁矫正之后出来的时候会更严重反而增加整个社会的成本跟代价 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
20556.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
20582.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
所以是考量這個部分那我當然你剛有提到其實我們監獄行刑法2020年修正的時候就有這個部分就是監獄應保障身心障礙受刑人在監獄內之無障礙權益並採取適當措施為合理調整所以如果你們都在做的話那我剛就請問那個定期接受矯正機關所屬人員定期接受相關訓練的部分有沒有可以先回答這個部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
20584.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
20604.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
謝謝委員那我們在訓練的部分在三等監獄官四等監獄官來受訓的時候我們在課程的安排裡面都一定會有帶到這一點然後再來職種訓練的時候我們在平常的一個長年教育還有回教證書的回訓裡面都有安排上這方面的一個訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
20607.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
20619.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
那如果已經有的話那是不是也是一樣就是跟剛剛條文一樣寫一個附帶決議強化這個部分那我們就這個接受這個願板就不再增訂你們已經在做的條文好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
20626.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
20641.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
所以先保留 請他們提供附帶決議之後再處理好不好報告我們好像有提附帶決議了是不是可以直接再加上去就可以你們有提附帶決議這一條的附帶決議有提了對應85條 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
20659.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
20660.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
副大臣,您好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
20671.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
20689.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
生意障礙者權益保障法第85條法務部矯正署應落實執行矯正機關對身心障礙收容人合理調整參考指引矯正機關身心障礙收容人處意計劃即將規定並滾動檢討處意措施以確保身心障礙收容人之權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
20690.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
20699.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
另外有關於輔具與支持措施之取得 獎項機關一身心障礙者輔具費用補助辦法協助辦理相關計畫請於兩個月內提出可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
20706.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
20728.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
这个辅具费用储育计划是蛮好的可是我刚刚讲的是矫正机关所属人员应定期接受相关训练是不是相关训练的部分再强化一下好不好那是不是直接可以补那个补在这上面好啊好啊那就再补上因为这个也还没讨论嘛OK可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
20729.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
20753.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
就是劉建國提案這個部分再加上那個矯正機關其實就是管理的人員應定期接受相關的訓練這樣子可以好把那個文字就就再做一下修正好不好那這條我們樣保理沒關係啦等一下回來的時候再再再看附帶決議的修正ok 之後就就過了嘛對啦對啦不用擔心啦今晚不會到12點啦好好謝謝那 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
20756.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
20759.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
85條 我們就先行保留 那繼續處理85條羅廷偉所提的85條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
20772.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
20791.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
這個有關羅廷偉委員的提案85條之一其實就是和這個前面的第85條訓練的是有關係的因為羅委員的85條版本是沒有特別提到沒有像范委員的85條他有整理一個訓練的條文那我們是建議如果說85條的 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
20792.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
20813.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
部分的話 已經會增列相關的附帶決議 針對訓練部分增列這個附帶決議 針對訓練的部分會去做加強那我們建議羅委員的85條之一建議就不予增訂 以上好 各位委員 羅委員所提的85條之一就不予增訂 有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就照這樣通過 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
20814.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
20826.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
好 現在跟委員報告 容我這樣處理羅庭委員所提的第七章之三然後八二十五條之二還有第七章之四然後臺北車站重大治安案件演練啦 演練 演練 演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
20839.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
20857.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
好 各位請莊敬志強處變不驚 好 我們繼續審查好 然後第7章之4然後相對應是廖偉強委員的第7章之2那羅廷偉委員是85之3 85之4 85之5 85之6 85之7 85之8那廖偉強委員是85之10 85之11 85之1285之13 85之14 85之15 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
20868.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
20870.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
這個部分是不是先請情形單位做個說明一併說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
20874.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
20900.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
有關羅天惠委員和廖偉強召委的第七章之二或是分別之四的申訴以及再申訴的規定這個部分其實我們考慮到其實在現行在先前在討論第16條有關在於歧視或者騷擾部分的救濟的部分現在都已經在有增訂相關的條文可以去透過訴訟的程序來做救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
20901.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
20930.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
那所以這個部分我們是建議這個部分就不需要再額外再去增訂申訴及再申訴這樣子的一個程序那這個針對一般的那另外針對一般如果是在身心障礙者權益覺得有受損的部分其實現行在這個本法第十條就已經有任務編組的一個身心障礙者權益保障小組可以受理一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
20930.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
20941.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
權益受損的協調案件所以我們建議這兩位委員的這個增訂的版本跟相關的條文建議可以不予增訂 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
20943.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
20963.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
那沒有 我們就依照行政單位的建立就建立不予增訂好 謝謝那我繼續接下處理因為這個條文應該都是就是我羅委員所提出來的這樣的要增訂的版本那我就一併做這樣宣讀再請新機關來表示意見之後再請各位委員來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
20965.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
20991.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
第七章之五那條文有八十五之九 八十五之十 八十五之十一 八十五之十二 八十五之十三 八十五之十四八十五之十五 八十五之十六 八十五之十七那第七章之六 八十五之十八 八十五之十九 八十五之二十 八十五之二一 八十五之二二 八十五之二三第七章之七 八十五之二四 八十五之二五 八十五之二六 八十五之二七 八十五之二八 八十五之二九 八十五之三十 八十五之三一 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
20992.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
20996.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
8 5次3 2 8 5次3 3 8 5次3 4 8 5次3 5 8 5次3 6 8 5次3 7第7張是8 8 5次3 8 8 5次3 9 8 5次4 10 8 5次4 18 5次4 2 8 5次4 3 8 5次4 4好羅鼎委員所提的增訂的條文請行政擔任做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
21013.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
21035.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
有關羅廷輝委員提議的一共有四個章節相當多的條文考慮到不管是在第七章之五有關權益受損的協調及再協調的部分現行三權法第十條對於權益受損的部分已經要求地方政府要設有 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
21036.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
21063.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
任務變組來受理這樣的一個權益受損的處理案件而且已經有相關的程序所以第七章之五以及相關條文我們是建議在現行已經有處理機制的情況下建議可以不予增訂那第七章之六有關仲裁的部分那因為考慮到目前仲裁法已經有都已經有仲裁法的部分那為了避免同一個案件同時會有本法以及仲裁法兩邊適用會發生法規競合的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
21065.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
21081.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
那這個而且這個現行的仲裁法條文已經規定的非常的細密那我們是建議這個為了避免法規上適用會有這個不清楚的地方我們建議第七章之六以及相關的條文也可以不予申訂那第七 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
21082.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
21103.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
羅廷文委員提案的第7章是7有關團體救濟的部分考慮到有關團體救濟的部分目前在審議中的本法第16條對於有關歧視如果受損害的部分其實法律上的救濟現在已經有相關的請求權基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
21104.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
21126.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
我們已經訂在裡面個別的受損害的人大概都可以來做有關團體救濟的部分在現行的訴訟法裡面大概也都有一些相關的基本規範所以我們建議第七章之七有關團體救濟的部分似乎可以不需要再做增訂的動作最後有一個第七章之 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
21128.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
21149.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
涉及到有關保全程序的部分第七項保全程序的部分因為現行在訴訟法規裡面不管是行政訴訟 民事訴訟 或者刑事訴訟對於證據保全都已經有相關的法律的規定在這邊額外單獨去做相關的證據保全的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
21149.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
21179.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
可能會產生在司法訴訟上面這個證據保全適用上面的這個會變得更加的複雜和不一致所以這個我們建議是不是就可以不予增訂以上好 來徵詢各位委員的意見那如果沒有我們就依照行政單位的建立剛剛宣讀的條文就不予增訂謝謝那我們繼續來審查月盤所提86條那委員有劉建國 蔡奕瑜 郭益勤 何新淳 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
21180.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
21189.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
廖瑋祥 陳清輝 林月琴 蘇巧慧 吳麗華還有李坤成 張雅玲還有心情條文 我們並且討論請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
21195.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
21219.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
行政院版的第86條的部分以下的條文都開始進入罰則這個罰則的部分基本上當初在研擬的過程我們大概的策略在立法上面的一個策略就是盡可能是去對齊精神衛生法這個讓未來在處罰的時候這個兩邊有類似的行為的時候罰則能夠有配套跟一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
21222.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
21249.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
在縱觀各委員的版本的部分那有些委員的罰則確實是反而度有建議是要做相關的提高或者是有相關的處理的部分那這個部分的話原則上我們建議是不是如果是考慮到要去跟精神衛生法一致的話大概都可以依照現行行政院版本的條文來做一次性的處理那我們建議是不是可以依照行政院的版本來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
21250.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
21277.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
來 各位委員請表示意見如果沒有話 我們就依照行政院的提案通過 謝謝 據審查院版所提八十八條 那委員有劉建國 蔡依瑜 郭益勤 何新淳 陳清威 林月琴蘇曉慧 吳立華 還有林倩琦 李坤誠對不起 李坤誠 張雅琳 還有現行的條文 並在討論 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
21280.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
21304.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
行政院版的修正條文第88條主要是在配合前面第57條的相關的規定的時候有關處罰的對象的部分有做一個文字的配套的整理其他的部分大概都是做文字上的修正各委員的版本基本上修正的方向都和行政院的版本是一致的所以我們建議是不是可以依照行政院的版本來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
21304.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
21323.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
好 謝謝 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就依照行政院版本來通過 謝謝繼續審查 院版所提89條委員劉建國 蔡易瑜 郭益勤還有林月琴 蘇巧慧 吳麗華還有李坤成 張雅琳 還有現行條文我們邊緣討論 請行政院大臣做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
21325.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
21346.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
行政院版本修正條文第89條主要也是在文字上有做一個整理以及配合條次的部分做一個修正那各委員的版本以行政院的修正修正草案的版本內容基本上都相同所以我們建議可以依照行政院的版本來通過以上好各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有我們就依照行政院版本來通過謝謝繼續處理89條有院版所提89條之一那委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
21353.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
21373.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
劉建國是這個打錯吧85條之一不對吧應該是八十九嘛那個可能助理笨笨的好八十五條之一好然後蔡議員八十九條之一郭益勤委員八十九條之一何欣淳委員八十九條之一陳慶威委員林業勤委員蘇喬威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
21378.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
21389.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
吳立華委員還有李昆城張雅玲等委員都有均提八十九條之一唯獨劉建國委員提的八十五條之一這是有問題的好謝謝請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
21392.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
21411.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
行政院行政院版本修正條文第89條之一那這個部分是增訂主要也是配合這一次有修正的第63條之一這個未經許可立案的部分設立尤其甚至還造成身心障礙者死亡的部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
21412.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
21425.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
處罰的規定那這個部分的話各委員的版本大體上內容都和行政院版本是一致的那其中唯一有不一樣應該是蘇巧惠委員的版本他有增訂一項這個有關轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
21428.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
21450.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
有訂定到轉介安置費用的一些相關的規範那由於考慮到這個在轉介的部分的費用目前實際上大概一般來說大概都行政部門都直接可以依照行政的行政計畫職權可以直接來做處理那我們就建議這個部分可以不用把它拉進來總體來說可以依照行政院的版本來處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
21450.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
21463.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
好 謝謝 各位有沒有其他意見那沒有 我們就依照新整頁的版本來通過謝謝 繼續處理院版所提82條之二 劉建國委員所提89條之一那蔡宇委員 郭玉琴委員還有蘇巧惠委員 吳立華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
21468.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
21496.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
李坤成為在內委員所提示八十九條之二我們並項討論請行政單位做說明行政院版本增訂第八十九條之二那主要也是配合違反第六十三條的規定去處相關的罰則那而各委員的版本的內容都和行政院的版本一致那我們建議是依照行政院的提案版本通過以上好謝謝各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就依照行政院的所提版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
21498.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
21513.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
繼續審查院版所提第90條那委員劉建國 蔡易瑜 郭益勤 何新淳陳清輝 林月琴 蘇巧慧 吳立華李坤誠 張雅琳還有現行調養並談討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
21517.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
21532.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
行政院版本修正條文第90條那主要是針對第一項有關這個違反第76條沒有在24小時內通報的部分去處相關增訂相關的罰則此外也針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
21537.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
21553.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
身心障礙機構如果有造成有一些特定的狀況造成服務的個案去死亡的時候有一些相關的罰則增訂相關的罰則的規定那這個部分各個委員的版本基本上內容和行政院的條文內容相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
21554.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
21579.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
那唯獨只有在書巧會委員的版本上面的書巧會委員的版本他也是有增訂這如果有涉及到轉介安置的時候轉介安置費用的相關的規定那由於考慮到目前轉介安置的部分目前行政機關實務上大概依照職權就可以直接來做相關的處理我們建議可以這個文字可以不需要納進來那總體建議可以依照行政院版本的行政院提案的版本來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
21580.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
21603.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見那沒有 我們就依照行政院版本來通過繼續審查院版所提九十二條那委員劉建國 蔡宇宇 郭玉琴何新淳 陳清輝 林月琴 蘇巧慧吳立華 還有李坤誠 張雅玲 還有現行條文九十二條 我們並案討論請說明 請行政單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
21606.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
21630.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
行政院版本第92條的部分那主要是針對配合前面相關的條文在處罰的部分尤其在如果在生意障礙福利機構有相關的違規的時候後續的包括罰還到庭業以及公告負責人姓名相關處理部分做條文文字的修正那各委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
21631.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
21660.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
基本上和行政院的內容大體上是一致的那主要這個部分我們會建議可能配套的文字需要做一個修正因為這個有關林月琴委員的版本在有在第二項的部分有關要限期改善的這些事由裡面有增列一個第93條第一項的第五款也需要納入需要做限期的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
21661.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
21689.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那這個內容的話它是搭配針對第63搭配在違反第63條的規定的時候有相關配套的處罰規定那我們研究這個部分是可以一併納進來做相關的處理所以我們現在有一個建議文字做一個相關的重新的調整那有現在有投影在這個大螢幕上那主要是在第二項的部分那我整個第二項重新宣讀如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
21690.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
21711.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
經主管機關依第九十條第二項及九十三條第一項第一款至第三款或第五款規定令其限其改善藉其未改善者得令其停辦一個月以上一年以下並公告其名稱及負責人姓名那主要就是甄列第九十三條第一項的第五款以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
21712.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
21741.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
好這就是林月琴委員所提的啦齁這個獲第五款嘛齁那已經把它增列進去那各位針對這樣條文的修正有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就依照行政院提案及林月琴委員提案修正通過好謝謝那繼續審查第九十三條院版所提九十三條那委員劉建國在與郭育琴何欣淳陳清輝林月琴蘇巧慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
21743.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
21746.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
吳麗華 還有李坤城 張也林還有現行條文 我們並案討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
21751.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
21776.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
行政院版第93條修正草案主要修正內容是包括在第一項的第二款對於違反第62條第三項這個有關違反設置標準的相關的規定的部分訂立相關的處罰另外增訂第二項對於評鑑如果不合格的部分那有加 從嚴來做相關的處理那有增訂整個第二項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
21777.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
21802.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
那各委員的版本條文版本總體來看和行政院的版本內容基本上是一致的那其中主要有不一樣的部分是林月琴委員的版本在這個第92條在本條的第一項裡面有增訂第五款的罰則那對於身心障礙機構在違反第63條之五或者63條 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
21804.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
21830.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
之期第二項的規定要增列相關的罰環那我們經過評估我們覺得這個部分是可以接受所以我們建議在這個部分我們條文的文字那就參照林月琴委員的提案版本做一個修正那我們現在有把這個修正的條文的建議調整的文字現在也秀在螢幕上那請各位委員參閱那我現在直接把第93條 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
21831.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
21847.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
第93條第1項整個再宣讀一次主管機關依第63條第1項規定對身心障礙福利機構輔導或評鑑發現有下列情形之一者因令其限期改善藉其未改善者處心台幣5萬元以上25萬元以下罰還並按次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
21851.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
21854.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
1.業務經營方針與設立目的或捐助上層不符2. |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
21854.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
21862.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
違反1.62條第3項所定標準中有關規模業務範圍設施或人員配置之規定3. |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
21862.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
21867.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
財產總委以無法達成目的事業之營運或對於業務財產為不實之懲報4. |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
21867.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
21870.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
經主管機關評鑑為平等或低等5. |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
21870.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
21874.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
違反第63條之五第1項或第2項之規定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
21875.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
21899.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
好 各位委員文書照章修正有沒有其他意見 不過沒有我們就依照行政院及委員林月琴所提的提案來修正通過好 繼續審查院版所提94條那委員有 對不起 台灣民眾黨所提還有參與委員 郭玉琴委員 還有林月琴委員蘇曉慧委員 吳立華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
21903.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
21907.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
李坤成委員 張雅玲委員還有縣省條文我們並且討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
21908.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
21933.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
行政院版修正條文第94條主要內容是針對依照法制作業的部分以及前面條次有條次或者項次有移動的部分做配合做文字上的整理那而各委員的版委員的提案版本和行政院的版本大概都一致所以我們建議可以依照行政院提案的版本來通過以上好各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有我們就依照行政院的版本來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
21935.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
21937.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
繼續審查原本所提98條我們弊案討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
21948.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
21969.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
行政院版修正條文第98條主要就是針對前面修正條文的條文的像字有有這個移動的部分配合做文字的處理內容沒有更動那各委員的版本內容基本上也都一致那以上我們建議可以依照行政院版本來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
21969.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
21977.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
好 謝謝 各位委員有沒有其他意見 沒有 我們就依照行政院版本通過 繼續審查陳冠廷委員所提99條 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
21983.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
22009.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
陳冠廷委員提案修正第99條的部分行政院沒有提案修正那主要是內容是針對國內航空運輸業者如果違反相關運輸的規定的時候那是可以由交通主管機關來處相關的罰則或者公共停車場的部分可以來處相關的罰則那這個部分的話因為涉及到由交通主管機關來處罰的部分我們建議是不是請交通部來做一個說明以上來交通部副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
22014.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
22017.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
來請說明六副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
22048.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
22063.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
看這麼久應該很肯定這點我們沒有特別意見沒有意見好謝謝那99條我們就要照章通過各位有沒有其他意見OK |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
22071.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
22095.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
你們是建議維持現行條文 抱歉 他是沒有意見那我們依照交通部的意見為意見 好 謝謝不好意思 因為要維持 不好意思你怎麼講都可以接受 維持那個現行條文 你剛剛不是這麼講因為剛剛那個 我已經跑到前面來看了而且你還看很久我們都沒有來打擾你啊 沒有干擾你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
22100.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
22121.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
好 各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有意見那行政單位是建議限行條文維持限時條文來 通過好 謝謝接下來繼續審查劉建國委員所提的第100條來 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
22132.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
22161.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
有關我們召委建議在100條的部分增訂對於違反第16條第3項的相關的處罰的規定行政院版在於第100條是沒有增訂相關的處罰的規定不過行政院版目前對於第100條對不起 對於違反第16條第3項的部分我們現在的設計處理的方向是針對於如果說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
22162.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
22166.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
合理調整的義務人他是拒絕協商不是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
22168.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
22194.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
不是對於協商的結果沒有達成一個共同的結果對於拒絕協商的部分那行政院版是在第100條之一有設計一個處罰的規定那這個在結構上設計和我們召委設計的部分不太一樣那我們現在因為第16條目前是在保留那這個部分是不是要是不是要先整個等到第16條確定之後再一併處理 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
22197.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
22213.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
這個本人表示同意保留我們就先行保留來繼續審查院門所提100條之一還有鬼雲過疫情委員蘇巧慧委員李坤成張雅琳好請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
22214.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
22237.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
行政院版第100條之一內容基本上和各委員的版本內容是相近不過因為第16條目前還在保留的狀態我們建議第100條之一是不是也先暫時先行一併保留 以上好 各位委員可以同意啦齁 那我們就先行保留繼續審查羅廷委員所提102條還有委員廖偉祥好 先行條102條我們併案討論 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
22241.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
22268.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
有關廖偉強 趙偉和羅廷輝委員提案修正第102條的部分那因為都是針對這個剛才已經確定不申列條文的部分去申列這個相關的處罰條的規定所以我們建議這個部分可以維持現行條文不予申列 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見 沒有我們就不予申訂通過 繼續審查行政院所提 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
22269.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
22288.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
違憲現行條文 違憲現行條文好 謝謝通過接下來行政院所提107條委員羅廷維 劉建國 蔡奕瑜 郭育琴 廖瑋祥 林月琴 蘇巧慧 吳立華 王育民 萬美玲 李坤誠 張雅琳現行條文107條 我們並要討論 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
22294.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
22317.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
本條是這個有關施行日期的規定那其中主要是考量考量這個修正有涉及到第16條的對不起100條之一的罰則的部分那我們建議是不是並同第100條之一剛才有保留我們建議是不是暫時先並同保留以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
22318.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
22340.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
好 謝謝 針對107條 還有商務委員所提的107條 我們就先行保留待處理到16條的時候再來一併討論 謝謝好 各位委員 我們已經亂玩的第一輪謝謝大家通力合作感謝各位 尤其在場的委員 謝謝剛剛林業勤我已經快睡了 這實在是有點不太厚道 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
22341.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
22347.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
謝謝大家那我們現在雖然沒有專業醫師的提醒我們還是休息一個因為我們訪問總共有30多條 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
22351.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
22376.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
有30多條是不是請行政單位還有各部會有跟個別委員的意見相處的這個時間可以來做一個溝通那我請議事組針對相關的一些附帶決議還是說有些文字上做修正的趁這個機會可以加以列印好現在休息我們休息到3點了好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
22378.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
22378.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
好 謝謝大家 謝謝 謝謝 不能離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
22423.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
22430.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
好預備喔 完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
22438.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
22442.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
你這樣又說你幹嘛在比喻我比喻老師你要不要提醒我 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
22453.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
22453.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
好熱鬧喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
22504.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
22508.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
22563.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
22568.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
22600.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
22600.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
22615.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
22619.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
有磁性 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
22669.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
22669.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
22717.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
22717.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
要注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
22751.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
22755.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
22809.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
22823.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
都沒有去跟委員溝通我們現在正在跟委員溝通沒有 先一條兩條先處理啊等一會整理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
22823.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
22845.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
這個其他有些人不在你知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
22858.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
22863.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
對呀 對呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
22897.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
22900.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
22919.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
22923.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
22947.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
22961.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
22977.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
22983.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
23008.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
23008.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
23023.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
23042.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
他就是一個居家古墓,他就是一個居家的屋簷,他可以種植的寶石,會太陽暖,所以是覺得這個有什麼好處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
23054.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
23057.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
23079.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
23100.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
23123.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
23140.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李卓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
23143.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
23173.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
對,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
23183.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
23191.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
23213.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
23213.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
23242.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
23244.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
23276.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
23296.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
23305.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
23312.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
23328.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
23334.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
23365.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
23365.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
好,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
23377.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
23380.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
23403.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
23410.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
23419.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
23437.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
23446.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
23455.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
23475.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
23481.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
23498.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
23512.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
23534.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
23548.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
23556.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
23560.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
23586.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
23607.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
沒有草莓嗎?草莓這個也沒有草莓?沒有欸沒有?我以為說草莓味那個吧喔40 應該40 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
23618.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
23618.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
靠面 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
23642.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
23651.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
23677.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
23684.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
23695.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
23700.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
23722.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
23727.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
23751.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
23764.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
23775.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
23793.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
23814.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
23816.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
23844.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
23849.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
23871.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
23872.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
23901.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
23902.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
23922.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
23946.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
現在連APP都可以用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
23947.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
23976.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
對,所以說那個我每個月都要查那個,他不能跟前面站著一樣。這有個銀行是利用法律的資料嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
23982.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
24001.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
24011.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
24013.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
24037.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
24037.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
嗯。 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
24054.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
24058.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
24073.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
24085.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
沒有什麼遭遇,萬一還好 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
24088.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
24099.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
謝謝大家收看,下次見! |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
24117.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
24121.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
24125.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
24142.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
然後再交發給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
24158.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
24173.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
24180.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
24191.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
其實二圓在朝向不障礙化或者是公共運動的改變所以在運區的部分應該現在慢慢的會朝向二圓鄉對鄉的激發力 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
24195.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
24214.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
那至於補貼的這個部分,可能因為現在618條已經給韓小平了,那其實我們沒有在身份重疊的部分,就多元身份的這個部分,可能如果說還要再給補貼,我們就要回到說那個各個的那個目的事業組織在典禮集會了,所以這個再仔細看看,跟委員那個說明一下,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
24225.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
24227.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
24244.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
24247.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
24264.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
24267.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
24292.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
24294.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
24311.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
24317.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
这张照片是美国国际艺术博物馆的一张照片。 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
24320.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
24321.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
歐里森590元特價390元 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
24351.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
24371.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
24389.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
24403.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
24414.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
24434.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
24478.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
24480.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
市長有請委員幫忙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
24484.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
24501.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
就是這個是說有很多特生然後這個是因為他們很多軟體跟平台他們沒有服障礙所以要求他們要服從然後這個就是希望以後這部法可以兩年滾動是確診這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
24536.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
24549.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
24567.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
24589.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
24592.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
24598.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
24646.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
24669.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
24699.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
24699.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
24724.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
24739.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
24748.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
24757.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
24760.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
24778.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
24790.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
24804.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
謝謝大家收看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
24810.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
24822.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
24836.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
24845.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
我七七的3738真的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
24856.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
24858.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
這是還沒出生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
24901.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
24913.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
兄弟姐妹的小孩這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
24922.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
24926.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
姐姐的話有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
24939.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
24945.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
餐廳內的餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
24949.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
24954.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
21歲就生了到時候別人會說你女兒跟他養大了會被問到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
24973.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
24978.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
我媽更早,我媽19歲就生了我兩個哥哥 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
24981.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
24983.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
都四十幾了,一個七十八個,一個七十五個,七十五個,那我就帶他來,小孩可以休息一會兒,小孩可以休息一會兒,小孩可以休息一會兒,小孩可以休息一會兒, |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
25011.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
25040.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
25047.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
25058.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
25080.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
25094.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
好幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
25118.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
25131.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
25133.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
25133.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
25162.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
25175.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
說訂不到好的位置嗎還好耶 訂滿多的租房的便宜住房的便宜住房的便宜那有私人房 還是專業的有家庭房 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
25189.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
25212.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
但就市區還是飯店的空間都蠻小的家庭我覺得A&B比較好會大滿多你要去喔?一直很在想因為日本我們定期管所以很不一定可是韓國沒有去過那我要去首爾湖山現在去韓國首爾是怎麼管?機票嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
25220.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
25234.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
我覺得也還好你都大臉好嗎?沒有沒有 都大嘴都好如果最貴的時候 疫情也一萬二而已最貴八千到一萬二 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
25245.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
25255.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
帶小朋友去午餐比較好午餐最近好天氣也比較好打劫也不用因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
25274.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
25286.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
它不像我們換線是跨一個...對對對它可能要走...在站內大概走五到十分鐘然後因為它比較老舊很多地方都沒有電梯或者是有電梯的話你都要再繞 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
25289.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
25307.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
湖南就是線比較單純,就兩三條在韓國基本是也蠻平均的所以比較少在韓國的指甲?濟州島比較適合指甲有其他地方不方便的三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
25316.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
25336.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
請不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
25341.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
25342.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
25373.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
25375.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
25408.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
25408.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
要保護它 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
25414.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
25426.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
感谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
25427.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
25444.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
25446.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
25460.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
中文字幕 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
25478.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
25478.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
25493.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
25514.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
在這裏面,我們可以看到有幾個大廈。在這裏,我們可以看到有幾個大廈。 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
25527.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
25541.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
25545.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
25575.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
25585.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
25601.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
你要說來賠還是來賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
25603.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
25603.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
來一票 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
25632.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
25646.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
現在韓國越來越方便了,我第一次去三四年前,有很多外國人都不太能用,現在很多都是國際版,然後都有中華版,地圖還是不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
25651.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
25661.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
他有中文嗎有 但是不太好用因為他搜尋他雖然是中文但是你搜尋的時候要靠英文或韓文 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
25674.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
25684.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
語言是不怕 我就是怕地圖就是導航導航一定要用他們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
25702.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
25720.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
25731.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
25747.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
25771.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
25771.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
歡迎光臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
25790.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
25800.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
我們剛剛已經不專業的休息進步了很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
25854.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
25854.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
25866.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
25870.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
请问讲解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
25911.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
25912.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
好 沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
25965.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
25966.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
25971.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
25972.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
26044.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
26051.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
好 我們繼續開會現在進行第二輪的討論那我們保留討論文是第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
26053.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
26081.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
對 要不要請行政單位再做說明如何溝通處理 請說明有關第二條的部分那目前跟各位委員這邊來做溝通的結果那當時主要的部分是在這個數位發展主管機關的部分那原則上這個溝通的結果應該是可以依照我們建議是應該是可以依照行政院的版本來做一個處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
26085.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
26107.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
好 各位委員行政機關做這樣說明 各位委員有沒有其他意見然後同時跟主席報告的部分第二條的部分因為同時有一個林月琴委員這邊我們要配合出一個相關的附帶決議我們附帶決議的文字也請委員這邊有過目了原則上文字應該已經委員這邊已經簽名了 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
26112.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
26135.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
好 第二條相關的附帶決議是不是先宣讀一下一併處理嘛第二條林玥琴委員的附帶決議是鑒於本條為民定之其他身心障礙者權益保障事項如校園運動場館文化活動場域水利設施高攤地休閒場域露營場 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
26138.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
26160.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
休閒 娛樂 遊戲場 氣象資訊 海上活動等無障礙設施現行規劃與管理仍可能出現疏漏原要求各主管機關於本法第二條通過後應依職權規劃推動與監督上述場域及設施之無障礙服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
26161.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
26189.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
確保身心障礙者權益落實另要求本法中央主管機關應定期進行跨部會政策協調並提供身心障礙者申訴與表達意見之機會確保服務完整性與可及性以上林委員這邊已經看過已經過目過已經簽名以上文字放大一點各位再審視一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
26190.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
26191.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
基本上是照院版啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
26217.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
26238.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
好 各位委員過目之後那第二條我們就是依照行政院的版本修正通過好 報告請說 稍微那個第二條的第三項第九款法務部 法務主管機關的部分感謝那個林月琴委員的版本還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
26239.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
26264.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
其他委員們的提案也容許讓我們在維持院版條文另外在立法理由說明第九款增列法務主管機關改善收容環境包括協助收容人租賃購買輔具及申請補助以上好謝謝陳士德這樣的報告我記得司法院不是也一樣有說明你們怎麼不用講你是喝了仙草變這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
26268.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
26294.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
那個不好意思我暈了那個有在第二條的立法說明的部分我們也是因為我們還是要明確所以我們會建議說我們是不是可以增加說有關身心障礙者權利公約第13條鎖定身心障礙者在平等基礎上有效獲得司法保護之權利應適用本法第84條之規定並由司法院負責推動規劃及監督法院在 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
26295.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
26314.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
訴訟程 程序實施過程中之司法禁用與無障礙事項好 那各位委員針對法務部跟司法研究有做這樣的立法說明方便的話就請議事組再把他列印出來再給各位委員過目可以吧他還沒有提供 好 很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
26332.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
26341.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
第二條 剛剛各位宣告過了行政院提案修正通過繼續審查保留條文第三條來 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
26347.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
26374.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
請說明第三條主要當時是針對第一款部分中央主管機關的這個業務內容的文字的安排的部分那有做相關的保留那我們經過跟做了比較多的討論那我們最後我們建議是可以依照林月琴委員的版本的文字來做處理那建議第三條第一款的部分文字可以從行政院的版本修正如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
26376.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
26399.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
全國性身心障礙福利服務與權益保障政策頓號法規與方案之規劃頓號訂定及宣導事項那第二款以下那而維持行政院版的提案文字 以上你剛剛那個第一款是有語嘛 是不是是 多一個語字請打進去好 主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
26405.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
26421.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
來 請林玉琴委員那第二款呢 第二款一樣你說第一款有與權益保障政策那第二款事實上是一樣身心障礙福利服務與權益保障之監督及協調一併甄列 一併甄列 好 謝謝所以就按照我的版本 兩個都甄列與兩個字好 文字這個要吧 第六款你是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
26437.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
26459.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
國際身心障礙福利服務與權利那包含11款呢11款一樣有個與報告針對跟刑罪版和委員版本中間不一樣的部分大概有另外還有第6款第11款那都一併要做專利 好好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
26464.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
26477.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
就增加一個語字嘛所以就依照林業勤委員所提的版本修正通過謝謝好這是第三條已經宣告繼續處理保留條文第四條來請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
26488.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
26502.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
那第四條的部分因為參考剛才第三條調整的方式那在第一款第二款的部分那也是在福利服務後增加一個語字 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
26504.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
26524.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
那另外交織性的部分那這個林月琴委員的部分那我們會提供一個附帶決議的文字但是在但是這個部分的話我們建議在條文的部分就是維持行政院版的文字就不予針裂 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
26525.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
26534.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
那林委員的這個附帶決議的部分那這個委員原來的附帶決議的部分我們會遵照辦理以上這個原來應該是這編號是應該第14號 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
26552.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
26576.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
所以確認一下也是按照我的版本中間加一個與福利服務與權益保障是第一款和第二款增加與之但是第十款就不增列對 第十款不增列可是原來的其他職銷是頓豪縣市身心障礙福利服務一樣會加與 對第十款也要增列 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
26583.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
26604.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
所以這個是這個是依照林月琴委員的版本還是怎樣我們建議是依照林月琴委員的版本修正通過因為林委員的版本第10款的部分就沒有甄列但其他部分我們支持參照林委員的版本好所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
26607.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
26615.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
第四條就是依照林委員的版本再修正通過修正後通過 謝謝繼續處理保留條文第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
26623.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
26648.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
第五條的部分這個部分確實是在由於有涉及到這個整個身心障礙者的定義的部分那我們這個在有關委員各個委員不管民眾黨團或者是范雲范委員或吳立華吳委員所提到有關是不是納入除了在長期以外包括短暫或間歇有損傷或不全的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
26648.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
26676.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
我們確實是建議這個部分在現行法規上納入實在是執行面有相當的困難所以我們建議行政院版的除了行政院版的條文我們建議就現有第一項的文字這個除了將不全如果能夠修正為缺損以外那我們建議能夠依照現行只做這樣的一個文字修正以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
26679.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
26691.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
來請陳昭志委員再請歡迎委員 謝謝在這個上次在第一輪討論的時候我也在想到就第二次國家報告的結論性意見也特別提醒我國在政策跟制度設計上還是偏向醫療跟福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
26692.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
26718.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
那對於間歇性 暫時性或情境性受限的人支持是往往不足這是被指出來的一個要改進的地方所以我們的版本才會我們民眾黨版本才會嘗試把這樣的概念反映在法條文字中希望讓這個定義本身多一點彈性跟包容性那我發現 等一下發言委會發言他也跟我是有一樣的這個建議那我不知道署裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
26719.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
26729.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
有這麼困難嗎 把這個間歇性 暫時性或情境性這樣的字眼放在裡面有困難嗎 你們要繼續保留在醫療跟福利導向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
26736.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
26761.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
請問委員上次我們在討論的時候其實也有人提到說短暫很可能變成長期而且短暫就是到底半年是不是短暫可是我自己是覺得說至少間歇要放進去間歇就是說有時候有有時候沒有它其實也是一種狀態間歇是不是能夠保留在這裡面以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
26764.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
26778.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
來 請回應跟委員報告這個現在的現行的條文有關在這個部分的話其實在條文裡面其實完全沒有去提到有關長期這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
26779.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
26805.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
但是在實務鑑定那個在顯一次審查的時候我們的照護師大概也有做一個相關的說明因為有一些如果是一開始就有確定然後我們也有在做有相關的公文大概有要求所以只要是他能夠如果一開始就能夠確定或者可預期他就是這個基本上不會回復的那麼他的身心障礙其實是可以做的這個部分其實部裡面一直有在做相關的重申 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
26807.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
26822.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
這個有關委員所提到間歇的部分它這個屬於波動的狀況時好時不好的這一類狀況其實在現行鑑定的架構底下它是可以被納進來的它不需要增訂文字它是可以被納進來這個部分執行面並沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
26823.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
26842.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
那我們在行政部門執行上面確實是對於短暫的部分就是已經明確知道他可能後面會改進這個會好的這一類的狀況那麼確實在不管是在鑑定的時程或者是資源的分配上面我們確實在實務執行上有比較大的顧慮和摯愛 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
26843.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
26872.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
那另外有關在這個鑑定的方法的部分我們從113年的在113年中那也已經把這個跟身心障礙者和社會互動這樣的因素就是一般我們俗稱的第一碼的部分也已經納進到這個鑑定的操作的範圍之內所以這個在鑑定的時候已經不完全是針對這個身心障礙者當成他自己的身體功能來做相關的鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
26873.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
26898.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
也包括了他和社會互動的狀況所以我們這個部分我們是跟各位委員報告那我們是希望說就這個部分是不是能夠就有關長期間歇或短暫的這個部分是不是能夠有一個空間暫時先不把它納進來那只是就現有的文字這個不妥當的地方這個不全這樣的一個文字有 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
26899.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
26911.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
對於這個可能在觀感上有負面的部分我們能夠把這個把它用缺損來把它來做一個取代以上那請黃次旭委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
26914.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
26939.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
署長剛剛做很完整的說明不過是對於長期短暫間歇有沒有機會就是因為零有身心障礙證明現在大家的概念還是半年雖然說我們實際上在執行的時候是不一定半年所以能不能在立法說明針對於這個零有身心障礙證明能夠把這個有關長期短暫或間歇的損傷的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
26940.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
26966.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
再加強說明讓大家可以共同確定的確身心障礙是有這樣的機會的以上能夠處理的話希望能夠讓大家可以更安心立法說明立法說明就尤其是間歇跟長期這個長期不是一定要那麼長的這個行政上我們已經做的部分我們可以在立法說明來做補充謝謝委員的謝謝委員的指正好請換於委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
26969.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
26987.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
我也是跟王振旭委員一樣那我是精神上覺得如果是短暫但他的確真的很需要的時候你其實也是可以讓他就是都放到立法說明當中好不好因為我們一般人並不知道以為這個長期一定要長期然後要去申請這個相關的這個證 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
26991.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
27003.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
是非常困難的那既然你希望說不要定這麼死然後實質上你們都有做有接受那是不是就在那個立法文字說明中把它都納入讓大家知道是有空間的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
27007.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
27027.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
好 請說明跟委員報告就是這個短暫或者是短期我們這個如果是預期它後面會是會回復的話這個因為現在文字如果是這個樣子的話它其實會隱含的是一個它後面會回復的狀態可能在納入身心障礙在處理的時候確實在食物操作上會有一些困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
27028.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
27046.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
那刚才在前面审查的过程里面在第60条之二的时候刚才有委员提到就像烧烫伤积水损伤这一类它这个可以预期是会有长期伤害但是因为鉴定的时程它会可能会中间会有一段时间可能就需要中间需要建一些服务的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
27047.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
27071.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
那這個部分的話像這一類的狀況其實在剛才60條之二這個部分我們會納進來處理那以這個在60條之二我們也會有附帶的會有一個附帶決議那對於這一類還沒有取得身障證明但是確實有服務需要但是它基本上是一個可預期會有可預期基本上會有長期需求的這樣的個案我們會來訂定相關的服務計畫來先行提供服務以上來 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
27076.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
27083.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
如果是短你刚才说短暂但是无法回复的就可以吗是这样吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
27088.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
27113.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
如果短暂但是明确比如说烧烫商知道他是无法回复的刚才在审理第60条之二的时候大概就这个部分有做一个讨论那先前在谈这个现在在谈这个第五条的部分这个时候在因为文字上只是讲短暂的时候他我们没有办法去预判这个短暂他后面是否会回复 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
27114.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
27135.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
所以他可能就會變成是這個比較極端的狀況他可能只是車禍的骨折那他可能要石膏打三個月那他會不會這三個月也算是身障他好了以後就不是身障那這樣的話可能跟我們現行整個身心障礙的這個在服務跟管理的架構上面確實是會有比較大的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
27136.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
27150.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
那但是如果是像燒燙傷這一類的個案它已經可預期它後面會比較長的話因為照我們剛才在討論的時候它本來就沒有限一定要到六個月但是考慮到它鑑定會有一個時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
27151.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
27178.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
那麼在他從這個發生有身障的狀態到取得鑑定中間可能會就能夠及早的來提供服務的時候我們剛才有跟在60條之後就說我們是不是在服務面那透過計畫的方式怎麼樣來跟醫療體系做一些銜接合作然後讓這一類的個案能夠先能夠得到一定的處理大概是從這個方向來做一個配套的服務以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
27182.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
27202.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
那我想确定说所以长期间歇是可以放在文字里面对不对我们会放在说明栏就是说明栏的部分那短暂但是无法回复的也是在这里头吗短暂无法回复的话就是如同刚才有跟委员报告就是我们会在那个附带会在那个附带决议里面我们就一并来处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
27203.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
27223.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
那附帶決議裡面是不是有一些短暫譬如說上次王振旭醫師講到的有些是三四個月可是他的確也需要也許搭一下復康巴士不然等等這種不是完整的得到你這整套的福利權益的也能夠有他有一些計劃可以照顧好不好是不是能夠在附帶決議中處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
27225.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
27255.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
这个我们在服务计划里面因为这个还是看总体的我们的服务资源跟量能是不是容我们在这个到时候相关的服务计划里面我们对于这一类的部分我们从优先性的需求度的高低我们就有一个附带决议把它放进去我们是不是就刚才那个60条之二的那个附带决议来先如果可行的话我们就是不是用那个文字来先做处理以上可以这一条的附带决议吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
27257.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
27266.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
就是第五条有个附带决议把这些也给他一定程度的协助我们就依照原版这样好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
27274.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
27296.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
一個是說明嘛對不對這個沒有院版啦主要是那個趙志傑那個台灣民眾黨團的版本比較相容跟行政院提出來的啦你們的版本好像跟行政院建議修正的比較相容啦基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
27301.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
27316.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
民眾黨團版本和范委員版本以及吳立華委員的版本基本上來說在這個有關身心障礙的定義的部分基本上是比較這三個版本是比較一致的那和行政院版本比較不一樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
27319.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
27336.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
那文字我們就是依照你在建立這樣的一個修正嘛對不對是不是是那個不全改為缺損嗎是好所以我們就依照民眾黨團歡迎委員及武力法委員所提的條文修正後通過可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
27343.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
27371.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
沒有 應該是依照行政院對不起 這個應該是任何一個目前是跟各委員 因為行政院沒有提案對啊那可能就是看依照哪一個委員的版本就是修正通過因為行政院沒有版本他們兩個委員的版本就相容就接近嘛 你說吳立華比較有落差不然就依照民眾黨團及歡迎委員所提的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
27373.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
27390.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
就所提的條文修正通過可以吧這樣可不可以你可以再確認一下那個文字嗎你是把這個時間的部分都放在在這邊的啦除了缺損那其他都不見了其他都不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
27395.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
27413.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
因為各委員有的版本裡面很重要的概念就是把長期短暫間歇放進來嘛但是現在修正的只改缺損兩個字啊那剛剛說武力法委員版本武力法委員他後面的那個坦白講我覺得寫得還不錯就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
27413.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
27433.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
這個也是符合大家剛講的就是說有一個接軌的而且他是授權讓你們去訂定就是因疾病或傷害至短期活動及社會產品受限者經評估確有需求者得准用本法部分規定其適用之權益及服務範圍由中央主管機關另訂職 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
27437.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
27460.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
我是覺得他這一個寫得還不錯因為其實都是授權給你們那剛剛其實我也知道這個衛福部的難處你們是說怕一下子就是開放太多會有資源排擠效應要訂一些優先順序但是如果按照原來這個委員提出來的版本其實都是你們自己可以去訂就是你們自己可以再另訂一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
27461.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
27480.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
一個你們認為他就經評估他還沒取得之前他的確有需求者剛剛委員講得很好有一些他其實已經譬如說他在一個比較偏遠他還沒有拿到這個身心障礙手冊但是他沒有辦法使用你的資源他可以去當復康巴士嗎恐怕沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
27481.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
27500.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
就是你會主動把它排除啦那這樣的寫法是說多一個彈性如果經你們評估然後資源也夠的話那就可以不會像現在硬梆梆的你們現在是一律排除但是如果有多這樣的條文呢就變成說你們可以考量你的資源足夠的情況底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
27502.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
27529.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
開放讓他雖然還沒有取得身心障碍手冊但是他的確就是有需求就是他也完全不能行動然後就是資源可以讓他可以使用你們剛剛其實不斷的說明也說你們實務上其實是會看如果真的有需求有一些你們還是會給那這個沒有衝突我知道你們是很擔心說一旦一開之後會不會使用者就突然崩就增加那根本本來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
27530.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
27557.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
大家使用的時數還有點強的情況又更不夠但是大家今天在這一條其實從第一次討論就討論蠻久在60條都有相同的概念大家就是怕擔心說有一些人他真的已經有需求只是還沒有拿到那個身心障礙證明那是不是我們可以放寬有點彈性讓他來使用政府的資源其實用意在這裡我是覺得大家可以再想想看 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
27559.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
27574.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
那個是不是第七條會再處理到 王委員講那個第七條的說明啦扣回來第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
27577.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
27593.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
目前第七條應該是和因為他也是進入身心障礙者需求評估的階段所以他時間點在時間點上可能是會比這個剛才委員所提到的會更晚40號會再晚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
27599.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
27605.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
你這樣講我是不懂的就是王議員現在講的問題,我問題這條題會不會說明我們是講這件事就是放在我表的範圍,我們這條是專門開出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
27616.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
27640.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
這個非常謝謝王委員的體諒不過因為這一塊其實我們嘗試的用計畫針對這個剛才提到像燒燙傷 積水損害積水損傷這一類的這個朋友那他還沒拿到身心障礙證明前的一些服務需求這個已經我們透過計畫已經是一個等於是在現行法規之外的一個先行做的一個嘗試啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
27642.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
27657.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
所以這個部分是不是從整個這樣的服務的提供來看是不是我們會建議有沒有這樣的一個空間是說我們先透過計畫我們來看一下總體的服務需求跟整個資源配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
27657.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
27679.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
那如果真的確定是在這個總體的資源上面是比較能夠來提供服務的話我們再來看看是不是逐步的來把這個東西擴大因為這個我們確實是有一點點顧慮是說我們現在一旦放到法律條文裡面的時候這個就是變成一下就要開我們確實是比較相對是比較擔心一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
27680.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
27703.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
如果這樣的話是不是有這樣的一個機會可以從我們先從計畫的角度先來做一點點等於是做一個類似示範的方式我們來整個做一個總體開放的當作是一個總體開放的評估那個也跟委員做一個報告跟請託 以上郭議員請委員先再來再換陳教授委員 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
27705.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
27726.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
這條我也有提那主要就是希望就是疾病或者是傷害導致短暫活動或是社會參與受限那經評估的確有這方面的一個需要的這樣子的族群可得用這個本法的這個部分條文然後來回應實務上他們短期需要被支持的這樣子的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
27727.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
27750.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
那就是大家可以稍微再討論一下因為其實包含就是這個損傷如果是與他人或者是環境相互作用的話可能會阻礙他有平等的一個參與社會者那主要是針對這樣的族群所以我在這個第九條的部分其實我第五條的這個第九項的部分我是有特別寫啦以上來請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
27754.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
27778.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
就想說謝謝署長說明謝謝玉民委員他就是協助再來溝通說明這些我們的擔憂的部分那如果現在大家我們現在知道就是擔心服務量能一下子無法預估嘛那些但是這樣的話我們這樣就擋住修法好像也說不太過去因為就是會排除會排除掉有需要的人那 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
27779.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
27803.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
如果這樣的話是不是說我們這條保留讓書裡面你們回去想辦法預估一下吧就是說我們現在你說可能應該是沒有辦法處理沒有辦法 量能上沒有辦法但是用這個理由去不寫入法好像也說不過去因為這個還是被國家報告裡面特別提醒了就是說特別提醒這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
27808.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
27818.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
那現在又確定不寫進去完全就不提及這些事情有點視而不見我們還是會擔心因為這樣太僵硬了有點僵硬把需要的人被排除在外你回去以後還有沒有什麼其他的資料可以再想再整理對不起我說明一下好不好不好意思因為因為這一條行政院的版本是沒有動那剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
27836.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
27854.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
我特別有做這樣報告嘛台灣民眾黨團還有這個煥雲委員所提的其實基本上是跟現有的行政院版本項款都是相容的啦只不過裡面有一些文字不一樣那剛好是煥雲委員有特別提醒到吳立華委員的有增列第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
27854.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
27874.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
就是經過這一個他其實應該是還沒有見到真正的拿到聲音障礙者手冊的對象那有可能未來是好那這個部分是剛剛有特別提到可能在第七款還是未來的第七條還是未來的的的的第幾條應該應該是可以出到去有委員有特別提到燒燙傷的對象60條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
27876.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
27896.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
60條是2嘛對不對好這一條要保留我沒有意見但是我是要跟各位跟兩位跟各位做一個說明原本你們提出來只有吳立華有爭列的那一項其他的委員是沒有還有誰還有郭益勤委員抱歉還有郭益勤委員這個其實不是只有這個樣態而已啦所以剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
27898.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
27912.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
要不要討論到六十幾條的時候我們再對照一下因為也不是只有騷動商的對象等等等我這邊有一個真實的例子也跟各位參考一下有很多小朋友在學校是經過建府會確認他是一個特教生 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
27913.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
27938.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
他有閱讀障礙或ADHD啊學校考試的時候他是可以延長時間提供這個報讀的服務但是他們到大學的時候要考國家考試技能檢定或是去面試工作時會因為他們障礙程度可能拿不到衛福部的那個混龍小卡就是身心障礙者證明了那就可能被判定他他不是障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
27940.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
27960.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
所以整個協助服務會全部被取消了這是這又是另外一種樣態了就跟各位講一下然後這個是我們就覺得不合理嘛因為張二手不會因為他滿22歲他就全部都都都都都恢復了都都怎麼講就全部都痊癒了那個那不可能所以沒有沒有沒有來證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
27961.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
27990.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
不代表他就不需要被合理的這個調整的協助所以我也希望說這個要講管理點就請行政單位針對等一下的60條之二還有跟對這一條因為沒有領身障手冊也能申請協助那我們的提案理由就是要規定對那些沒有實際障礙需求但未領證的人就像我剛剛講的那個特教生這種可以透過簡化的評估程序簡化的評估程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
27991.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
28014.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
例如參考過去的特效紀錄或是現場的觀察直接提供植物在社區或個人助理等必要服務那目的是希望他們在職長考場上能站在跟一般人平等的起點那嚴謹的審查所以剛剛署長是講用計畫我是不曉得這個計畫的內容大家能不能接受不然是不是有計畫相關的一些規範還有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
28016.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
28039.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
也給我們委員做一個參考 然後等下對照這一條 這條先保留 沒關係 等下討論到62條之後的時候 我們可以詳細的來再參考各位委員的意見 好不好好 那我們先保留 但我剛剛把這個過程也說給各位聽一下 因為那個樣態真的會非常多啦 好 謝謝好 這條還是一樣保留 那我們繼續處理保留條文是第7條請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
28046.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
28059.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
第七條主要是針對這個身心障礙者他的在取得鑑定報告之後他後端要開始進行的需求的評估的規定那這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
28061.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
28078.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
我們會建議參考了各個委員在前一次會議的時候大家討論的意見這邊主要其實大概會當時在會上比較大家意見比較聚焦的部分是針對經濟情況的部分是不是要納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
28079.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
28098.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
我們現在針對第七條的部分我們有一個建議的條文的文字主要是針對第七條的第二項文字再做一個修正我們現在文字有投影出來就請各位委員來參閱我一併宣讀如下第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
28099.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
28125.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
前項需求評估應依身心障礙者障礙類別程度經濟情況照顧服務需求生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等經數為之大概就我們把這個部分我們把它重新再做一次參考上次討論的各委員的意見我們重新再做一次文字的整理以上好 林玉慶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
28127.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
28149.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
我當初提沒有這個 可是我現在想好奇問你用家庭支持需求 本來家庭支持事實上是他家裡要對他他的支持 如果你說家庭支持的評估才能知道說他家庭支持不夠 然後我要給他什麼可是你是家庭支持需求 這有點怪對你那個字眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
28159.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
28159.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
待會請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
28161.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
28189.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
這邊我們要文字稍微去整理因為前端就是這一項一開始就是在做需求評估所以大概就是針對各個項目的我們的想法就是各個項目的需求所以理論上就是經濟的需求照顧服務的需求生活的需求社會參與的需求家庭支持的需求所以大概是從這個角度去寫單純只是因為這樣子去寫文字來字眼很怪 因為為什麼一個是我生活需求OK嗎還有甚至我要社會參與的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
28190.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
28212.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
個人現在我家庭支不支持我的話我的需求這不對啊因為你這個變成是家庭對他的支持然後去做需求我覺得這六個字是很怪的如果是這樣的話我們建議如果是這樣是不是直接把如果我不確定是不是意思上是不是要把需求那兩個字不拉進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
28216.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
28245.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
連有條文是有啦對不對 各委員也都有這個家庭支持的條文其實寫的是家庭生活需求那你現在你新的是你是不是把原來家庭的生活需求把家庭拿掉變成是生活需求然後你家庭又把它放到後面變家庭支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
28247.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
28277.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
家庭支持需求你本來是把它寫在一起的你的原條本是家庭生活需求因為有委員的版本是覺得這個生活的部分他不會只在家裡面他可能也會有外出有等等各種各樣跟社會的連結所以這個在委員的版有些委員的版本裡面是把家庭生活就把家庭兩個字就刪掉那我們是考慮到說這個部分的話這個在因為是考慮到未來他總體需求的各種相關的面向那我們大概就這樣子文字整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
28280.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
28288.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
所以你這一項等於是說你要去評估他的加持支持的程度有多高囉是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
28292.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
28311.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
這個部分會分成兩個部分這個一個是他的家庭可以支持這個多少這個身心障礙者可以支持到什麼程度那第二個是這個家庭本身需要被外在的資源支持到什麼程度所以他可能家庭支持的需求可能也會包含到這個就是他的家庭需不需要什麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
28312.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
28334.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
來這個部分包括例如像照顧者的負荷等等這個可能就是家庭支持的需求那我們這個文字其實是有這樣的一個想法對 可是過往我們在講家庭支持的定義事實上是這個家庭對他的支持的程度有多高比較不是那如果是講說外界對這個家庭那是社會支持了 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
28336.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
28348.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
先理清啦就是說你這邊比較要談的是說這個家庭對他的支持程度是吧要去評估他這個家庭對他支持程度才知道說要給他什麼東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
28355.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
28374.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
跟委員報告就是在第二項裡面這個所有各類的內容基本上只要需要支持的那政府評估的目的其實就是當家庭就是以家庭的自己內部的資源大概不足以來支撐這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
28378.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
28399.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
來不足以完全來服務這位這個身心障礙者的時候那他本來的概念就是需要外部的資源進來那這個外部的資源就包括了從像經濟 像照顧像他的生活或者是社會的參與那這個家庭支持的部分那當然我們在寫的時候我們希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
28399.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
28423.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
涵蓋到包括一個是第一個當然是了解家庭能夠支持這個聲音障礙者第二個也是這個家庭裡面也需要外部多少資源來去支撐這個家庭可能這個部分其實在以現代食物來說可能在食物上大概也會需要那當然文字上怎麼來更精確的去呃呈現這個部分呃我們可以來來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
28424.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
28441.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
來依委員的意見來看怎麼來再做進一步可以做更精準的描述和調整我剛剛只是確認如果那樣反正是把需求兩個字拿掉我就覺得比較沒有我剛剛講的那個問題我覺得這有同意只是我覺得才是有點怪就這樣各位委員有沒有其他意見來 國務卿委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
28454.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
28481.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
還是說那個家庭支持把他改成家庭狀況還是對啊因為他前面有經濟情況生活需求那家庭支持如果如果是為了要評估他的家庭的樣態或狀況不曉得看大家的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
28484.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
28511.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
來 陳教授委員我想知道署長您對那個召委他的第七條的那個修正動議其實他就是在補那個未領有身心障礙證明者申請之後再設計個人證或其他的服務提供單位他要做的一些一些比較彈性的部分您覺得第七條因為他剛好也是涵括了我們其他版本的內容但是您覺得這樣子署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
28513.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
28532.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
您可不可以評估一下就你覺得這樣劉教偉的那個版本可以嗎第七條對啊都不好意思講這樣就是問題就在這些地方請署長了解一下劉教偉的版本他連看都不看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
28542.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
28543.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
還喝我的仙草 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
28560.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
28574.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
跟兩位委員報告一下因為這個原來第七條的設計它是從一個身心障礙者總體從一開始在判定到得到服務的流程這樣去做一個結構性的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
28576.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
28605.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
所以第七條的時候是當他鑑定完之後他是一位身心障礙者那我們接下來需要去評估他需要各種哪些面向的服務所以第七條的原來的這個條文結構是從這個角度去做相關的設計這個時候那當然就是服務的看他評估一位身心障礙者他需求的時候我們就會在第二項裡面去看各種面向的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
28606.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
28626.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
那這個部分的話因為我們劉昭偉的這個部分的話評估作業的部分的話他的這個整體設計的條文的結構和大概是有把線型條文的第三項和第二項看起來是應該是有做一定程度的結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
28627.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
28647.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
那但是這邊的話我們是建議說因為這邊單純就是目前現行的實務上那評估的作業主要都是由我們主要都還是由社政的主管機關那主要社會局處來做所以我們會建議那朝委的條文是有提到要要會同衛生主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
28649.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
28673.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
那我們是建議這個部分可能在對現行行政操作的部分影響比較小的情況之下我們會建議是不是有可能還是維持這個現在院版的條文結構那昭緯這邊也有提到當然有甄列一個第三項的部分是不是對於還沒領有身心障礙者申請職務再設計個人助理其他的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
28673.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
28689.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
那這個部分第一個植物再設計的部分其實就我所知是勞動部對於這個有關植物再設計的部分其實確實在服務面上面他並不是完全限一定要身心障礙者他已經有一些放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
28691.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
28716.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
那但是在個人助理的個人助理的部分是目前確實是以前提是身心障礙者才能夠去處理相關的服務那在這邊的話在如果要開放是還沒有到拿到身心障礙者的話那提供他一些相關的觀察或者是意見來去評估的話那這邊的話就可能會面臨到和這個剛才前面第五條所討論到的類似的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
28718.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
28746.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
就是他的服務的內當然這個他是還沒有拿到身心障礙證明者那他是不是能夠拿他怎麼樣去給他一些相對相適應的服務的問題他會跟第五條會產生一些關係那所以我們會建議說第七條的部分是不是還是盡可能是維持在以現行條文的結構底下來看看怎麼樣在文字上面來做一個處理以上的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
28749.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
28774.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
剛剛我提醒各位剛剛署長講的我們要處理到那個就是他可能可能在對還尚未領有身障手冊可能未來會還是不會都我們想要事先來對這些對象的一些照顧他在他剛剛特別提到是60條之後我變起來是沒有啦沒有那一條是沒有所以我們如果我們不在第5條第7條去做處理的話可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
28775.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
28791.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
就沒辦法處理確實 跟召委報告那60條之二的他本來是針對這個是身心障礙者那當時是在討論的時候這個有跟委員報告是說針對還沒有有一些特殊狀況的部分那這個還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
28793.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
28820.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
可預期他會成為身心障礙者但是還沒有拿到鑑定證明的部分那像提到像燒燙傷或者是這個脊髓損傷這一類的身心障礙者的話那我們是用一個附帶決議就是透過行政部門自己來提相關的補助計畫或操作計畫對於這一類個案等於是以示範的方式來在他還沒有拿到身心障礙身分之前來嘗試的來給他做服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
28820.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
28836.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
那60條之後的條文確實現在還是針對核心是聚焦在已經取得身心障礙者的身份那只是在討論的時候說針對還沒取得的部分有這幾類人我們可能要做一個附帶決議方式來做一個嘗試性的示範的處理以上那請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
28843.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
28871.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
針對第7條因為我原本的文字是家庭支持需求拿掉需求兩個字好像那個意思完全不一樣了因為我剛剛想了半天因為它家庭支持需求的意思是說障礙者跟我們大家一樣都需要家庭支持系統所以那是一種需求可是你如果拿掉需求兩個字好像會讓人感覺說他家庭支持比較少的時候我是不是要多協助他一點家庭支持比較多的時候是不是我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
28872.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
28888.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
給他的資源少一點好像會變成這樣的一個意思不太一樣是不是可以把那個需求兩個字放進去家庭支持需求對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
28895.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
28919.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
我建議這樣啦 這條是一樣保留啦好不好因為剛剛講的62條之後是林業勤委員所提的啦所以那個也是一個新增的一個條文你要在一個新增條文裡面再去做互帶決議那倒不如你應該是在第5條第7條就要處理了啦我是建議這個樣子啦濃度林業勤委員的這樣的一個提出的增訂條文的一個精神嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
28920.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
28943.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
您要不要思考一下那我們第五條 第七條先保留啦好不好就這個輪廓大致上大家都有共識啦就請行政單位把這個條文的精準度精細度融合大家的這樣的一個想法這樣才是一個修啊真正的一個最高境界好 謝謝好 繼續處理保留條文第十條請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
28948.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
28973.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
第四條就是有關在主管機關在有相關的身心障礙者的權益保障的組織不管也許委員會等等在前一輪討論的時候主要的焦點是聚焦於身心障礙者在這個組織裡面的一個比例原來行政院的行政院版的條文行政院版的草案是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
28973.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
28982.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
身心障礙者代表及身心障礙者那他的總數是不可以少於這個組織委員總數的二分之一那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
28986.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
29009.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
那我們我們這個參考了各委員的在在在討論的過程中那我們是覺得這個委員的比較多數委員是期待說就是身心障礙者是不是能夠要不少於二分之一那如果是這樣子的話好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
29016.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
29035.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
我們原來有初步先讚你一個文字不過這個可能跟委員的那個原來在想要的在討論的一個方向可能還是有一點點可能還是有一點點差距我們這個我們原來是想說我們再做一點調整看看就是身心障礙者代表兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
29037.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
29061.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
兒少的身心障礙者代表然後學者專家跟相關這個對不起在第二款的部分就是身心障礙者代表兒少身心障礙者代表跟身心障礙者人數合計不能少於二分之一那這個是大概我們的想我們是建議是不是如果用這樣的文字是不是可以回應在上一次討論的時候各位委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
29064.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
29090.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
好各位看這文字來請歡迎委員這個的爭議就是說身心障礙者代表是不是身心障礙者如果不是的話他就是會不是說就沒有達到CRPD的精神就是讓身障者參與做決定所以問題就是在這 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
29095.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
29117.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
來請黃志勳委員麥克風趕快在討論這一條的時候我的自己對於所謂身心障礙者代表應該有兩個含義一個他本身就是身心障礙的人他可以當作相關的身心障礙者的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
29118.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
29133.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
另外就是他不是障礙者可是呢他是身為這個障礙者的代表所以他這個身份其實是含有兩個含義我的認知是這個樣子那如果是這樣的含義的話那放在法條裡面有沒有構成比較特別的影響這可能大家來確認一下來 陳教授委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
29144.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
29166.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
我們還是希望這個身心障礙者本人本人就是要占不少於二分之一就是二分之一以上是本人那個代表民團裡面不是都是身心障礙者不是代表也不是那這個是這一波的訴求他們非常強調非常希望由他們自己來表達由他們自己在會議中參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
29168.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
29185.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
所以是要本人不是代表那當然他代表自己這沒問題但是我們還是強調他的身份是身心障礙者請署長這邊再多了解我們的重點是這個不是代表是本人本人就是身障者謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
29190.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
29218.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
各位委員看這文字有沒有什麼地方要調整的這個上一次我記得是討論蠻久的那當然當時社家屬有說有一些為什麼是需要那個代表因為他本身他可能是沒有辦法表達的所以他需要有點類似代言人來表達但是上次我也有問過就是說你到底身心障礙者代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
29219.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
29234.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
你占幾個席次就是說如果我們把這個第二款把身心障礙者代表直接拿掉那你那個代表有一些少數我覺得的確還是會有特例就把它放到跟專家學者另外的二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
29235.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
29251.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
這樣會影響很大嗎我個人覺得不會影響很大就是說你就是等於是讓身心障礙者的人數跟受到身心障礙者代表的人數不得少於二分之一那你一直說那個有些障別他的確他沒有辦法自己講他是需要透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
29253.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
29267.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
機構的代表來幫他發聲或者是他的爸爸媽媽幫他發聲這個可以理解但他可以算在另外的那二分之一你另外的那二分之一就會有代表有專家學者這樣不行嗎會影響很大嗎我上次就問過這個問題就是說實際上如果他只是兩席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
29270.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
29293.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
就是說你可能代表可能只是兩席或三席把它歸到另外的那二分之一我覺得也沒有到非常的困難我不曉得你們現在再回去重新思考討論之後覺得會很困難的是什麼因為你們那時候講一個理由是說有一些障礙障礙的類別他可能自己沒有辦法表達那麼好需要代表那可以啊那就算在另外的二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
29299.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
29324.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
跟各位報告因為當初我們在這樣的組織裡面成員的身份類別在分類的時候我們的想法很單純就是如果他是身心障礙者代表那麼這一類的成員的身份他存在的目的他當然就是幫身心障礙者來發聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
29326.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
29345.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
不然的話他不應該用身心障礙者代表的名義進來那不管他是不是身心障礙者他用這個類別進來之後他目的就是為了要幫身心障礙者發聲那我們在這個組織裡面之所以要做這個分類做各種的分類的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
29345.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
29373.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
其實在這個組織裡面其實它最重要我們在思考的時候是這個組織裡面它其實不只是讓這個聲音障礙者發聲而已我們也希望在這個組織裡面當聲音出來了之後它是能夠讓不管是服務的使用者服務的提供者甚至政府主管機關等等各個面向它在這個組織裡面能夠去透過互動去找到解決問題的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
29375.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
29400.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
如果是從這個角度來看的話所以我們才會講說這個時候即使這位身心障礙者代表他未必是身心障礙者但是他在屬性上面他其實就是跟所有的身心障礙服務使用的所有的身心障礙者角色基本上的概念是比較接近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
29400.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
29418.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
所以我们在算这个是不是二分之一的时候我们是从这样的一个角度来做相关的思考如果我们将来说一定是身心障碍者要达到二分之一这个时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
29419.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
29444.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
我們回過頭我們當然會要去思考的就是身心障礙者那單獨在這個裡面我們要去計算他的比例的目的是其實看各位委員剛才的說法就是他的目的就是身心障礙者他是服務的使用者要來表達他的意見那其實這兩個目的其實看起來是蠻相近的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
29444.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
29458.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
所以這個是我們在設計上的一個我們當時在設計用這樣的文字來處理的時候是有這樣的一些想法所以當然站在行政部門我們最後如果討論的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
29460.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
29474.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
我們還是會尊重整個委員會這邊整個討論的決議跟處理只是我們在設計的時候我們的想法就是我們看的不只是單一的一個比例而是這個比例本身代表的屬性跟定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
29475.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
29495.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
以及組織在裡面我們希望能夠透過討論跟互動怎麼樣去創造一個能夠去互動交流解決問題的一個組織機制那我們從這個角度來去做相關設計思考的時候我們大概提出這樣子的建議那以上說明也跟各位委員來做參考好我提出一個剛剛那個立法的不好意思 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
29499.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
29525.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
這樣 這邊可以講話嗎可以啊 請說 怎麼不可以我覺得也問 就是阿蘇因為過去過去到底各縣市各地方政府在邀請的時候的狀態是什麼因為我們也不能用台北來看天下看我們整個各縣市到底到最後會不會邀到人因為我們最重要的事實上是不管是身心障礙者本身 團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
29526.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
29552.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
因為團體常常他常年倡導研究倡導甚至對於很多東西事實上是有一些他們過去的一個整個現況的了解所以他們也有一定的一定的應該要有一定的比例的時候那如果今天全部不知道各縣市如果全部的委員假設10個有5個一定要身心障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
29553.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
29570.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
那又再加上專家學者搞不好剩兩個然後再加上民間機構只剩下兩個然後剩下一個可能是我不知道是政府部門這樣的比例到底真的事實上是可以讓事情我覺得我當然認可的是說今天身心障礙者最知道他自己的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
29571.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
29596.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
那我不知道這樣的組合到底真的事實上是可以讓我們的政策更完備會在討論事情的時候更OK嗎甚至還有考慮到地方真的能夠邀到嗎這都要中整考量所以我想先請我們的衛福部先回答因為過往沒有嘛沒有特別這樣要求那北部我覺得就像我們自己在看有些縣市連民間團體有時候都不見得找得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
29597.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
29623.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
可以來參與會議的那你現在還又要在特定的時候那到底各地方政府真的可以在執行這樣子的一個會議我最後就是做不到的時候會不會這個會議大概基本上也沒辦法召開就反而事實上是會不會讓民間團體在推動這一塊的人就針對這一個會議大概很難定甚至也沒辦法去運作我覺得這到底是不是好事可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
29623.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
29646.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
要來中正討論所以我覺得這個可以花一些時間來討論可是我覺得衛福部自己到底過去有沒有這樣的一個經驗值今天要提出來那從身障者本身他期待這樣子可是到底個性是真的樣態上可以達到嗎 以上好 剛剛數場室有回應了就看我們委員們大家的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
29651.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
29676.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
來 請王玉敏委再召喚陳教授我講一個修法問題那個第一款跟第二款就是區別是什麼就是你前面也是身心障礙者 兒少學者專家 團體代表不得少於二分之一那下一個又是身心障礙者 兒少代表身心障礙者不得少於二分之一你這樣是不是有重複了我覺得是可以整合成一個條文就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
29679.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
29687.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
就是寫兩邊的不得少於二分之一有需要這樣嗎你說有一邊就不得少於二分之一剩下不是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
29690.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
29714.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
這個第一款和第二款二分之一的那個分子不太一樣因為第一款他還包括學者專家或者相關民間機關購或者團體那這個他原來第一款的目的就是簡單說就是不要政府獨大簡單說是政府不要獨大就是非政府的要超過二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
29716.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
29743.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
等於不是政府機關要超過二分之一那我們現在是 這個第一款原來的目的是這個樣子那第二款的話就是完全是針對身心障礙者人數的比例的部分那這個我也跟各位委員一併的做一個報告的就是以現行的 現行各縣市大概這一類身心障礙的權益保障的部分的話那各縣市確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].start |
29745.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].end |
29761.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].text |
我們所查到的組織這類的身心障礙權益保障推動小組的委員屬性的部分22個縣市裡面身心障礙者超過三分之一的目前是四個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].start |
29765.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].end |
29791.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].text |
那目前沒有一個縣市超過一半那目前是超過三分之一的只有四個縣市那目前還有幾個縣市其實是低於百分之二十還有若干縣市是低於百分之二十那這是目前大概的現狀那當然太低了我們會協調地方政府看看能不能去做一些改善但是在上限的部分即使以最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].start |
29792.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].end |
29798.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].text |
以最高的這個資源最高的大概還是集中在雙北大概在四成出頭大概只有雙北來 陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].start |
29808.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].end |
29823.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].text |
我想我提三點先提三點第一個CRP的精神從頭到尾就是那句英文Nothing about us without us就是我們自己第二個我們這次的修法的核心在一個需求跟權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].start |
29824.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].end |
29850.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].text |
那需求尤其是以他的自律生活他的需求他的需求就算你很愛他你不見得可以替他講出他的需求第三個就是這一次這一次代表那個就是身障者他們主訴求從頭到尾主訴求就從他們需求開始我們才衍生了這麼多可能將近100條的修正案那最後一個我請教署長署長您剛剛說那個比例三成四成請教署長那為什麼這麼低呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].start |
29853.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].end |
29863.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].text |
為什麼就是說身障者本身這麼低呢是其他的代表們非身障的太熱心了還是說一向這個他們覺得他們有能力去發言呢為什麼是這樣呢那一旦我們修法後說不定整個就不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].start |
29872.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].end |
29894.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].text |
你有直接接觸這些身障者嗎就是說那為什麼這麼低這麼低是要問原因的為什麼是佔率這麼低佔三成四成這個我可以補充這個22個縣市基本上都不希望有太多的身障者來參與這樣的會議所以他比例原本就不會高了這就是事實就是現狀OK好誰可以反駁我我要請到何先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].start |
29905.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].end |
29926.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].text |
請王正修委 請說我試著看大家有沒有機會再討論看看就是說在立法說明裡面來加強什麼叫做身心障礙者代表然後在這個精神之下我們原則上如果有本身是身心障礙者當然是最好的參與者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].start |
29928.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].end |
29952.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].text |
那如果是無法產出這麼多的身心障礙者進入到這個委員會的話那他的代表基本上呢不一定是他一定是身心障礙者這樣的話能不能夠有機會在以現在的條文之下去解決困境否則的話我們可能會一直在困在這個大家的擔心裡面以上的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].start |
29952.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].end |
29959.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].text |
我對不起委員會跟各位做個報告我們不會我們不需要再困在這個裡面了各位委員如果覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].start |
29960.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].end |
29984.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].text |
身心障礙者本身就應該超過二分之一那我們大家就決意超過二分之一這樣就把事情解決掉了這樣最快因為本身身心障礙者自己代表他們的各個站別然後參加這個委員會來表達他們的訴求還有他們遇到的狀況等等等那我們可以透過修法讓這些身心障礙者的比例提高到二分之一這個絕對是正向的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].start |
29984.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].end |
30007.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].text |
這個你不用擔心找不到人啦 那是不可能的事情啦一個縣市都幾十萬的身心障礙者朋友怎麼可能會找不到人那個是有二分之一不到20%的那些基本上都應該要送檢察院的啦好不好 我們這一條一樣保留行政單位把文字修好我們就是要身心障礙者超過二分之一啦 這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].start |
30009.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].end |
30023.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].text |
不是 他是第二款 第三款對 還是要跑一下 還是要修一下他是身心障礙者代表我剛剛提到的是各位如果可以認同就是身心障礙者代表代表拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].start |
30055.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].end |
30071.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].text |
應該是這樣啦 好不好這個文字應該很簡單嘛 身心障礙者代表頓點兒童歧視少年身心障礙者代表然後 不是急喔不是急 代表然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].start |
30075.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].end |
30098.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].text |
但身心障礙者人數不得少於總數的二分之一好 前面槓掉就槓掉啊對啊 你趕快 你剛剛就可以這樣講了合計拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].start |
30113.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].end |
30115.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].text |
對 會跟第一款會有那個因為其實現在如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].start |
30134.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].end |
30157.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].text |
如果主要是身心障礙者人數不得少於總數二分之一然後兼顧各障礙類別之均衡其實這樣就夠了那其他自然而然他就會那個槓掉就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].start |
30179.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].end |
30192.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].text |
來 各位看文字張可以嗎 那個先把它槓掉吧可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].start |
30200.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].end |
30227.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].text |
沒有 那你第二款跟第一款會打架喔還是第一款整個第一款就拿掉就好了如果這樣根本第一款就不要了可是我也覺得未來真的要橫估說整個到底地方在執行上怎麼去做邀約能夠達到甚至也要地方能夠去配合讓他們真的可以順利進到與會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].start |
30232.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].end |
30260.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].text |
可以吧就把第一款整個拿掉啦第二款變成第一款嘛以此類推啦那個還有文字前面第一項的部分沒有寫身心障礙者第一項主管機關因公平開放原則以下寫的都少了一個身心障礙者你都是寫代表代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].start |
30267.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].end |
30282.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].text |
沒有你上面講的是那個類別就是說你應該邀請哪些人有身心障礙者代表有兒少身心障礙者代表有身心障礙領域學者專家有機構團體但是就少了我們下面最重要的身心障礙者要加上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].start |
30300.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].end |
30311.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].text |
如果配合現在修過的第一項第一款的話這個如果是身心障礙者那他就沒有他就不會有可能就是不是就沒有代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].start |
30318.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].end |
30339.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].text |
我知道我知道署長的意思啦剛剛就身心障礙者代表是王委員所剛剛說的他其實是有兩個有兩個含義啦應該是這麼講啦一個本身就是身心障礙者然後代表這個團體去的身心障礙者代表另外一個是代表身心障礙者的家庭的成員還是怎樣的那個代表啦不一樣應該是這麼說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].start |
30342.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].end |
30354.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].text |
以後如果家長事實上是假設今天如果我今天事實上是因為過去有很多事實上是家長他可能會因為他孩子而進入到那以後也都不行了沒有在另外的二分之一沒有不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].start |
30355.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].end |
30383.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].text |
他这个只是规范身心障碍者人数不得少于二分之一啊没有 现在第一个是代表要拿掉啦不是吗不是 他还有另外的二分之一另外二分之一就包含有没有 你现在讲看的上边上边的字眼上就已经是身心障碍者所以应该是增加没有要拿掉可是代表放上去也很特别啊也很难啊不是吗为什么会很难不是 你现在就是身心障碍者代表可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].start |
30384.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].end |
30411.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].text |
所以要分兩個一個叫身心障礙者一個叫身心障礙者代表因為在你的委員會成員裡面可能另外的二分之一你還是可以找家長來當作代表沒有跟你說不行我們現在討論是說你所有的委員會對不對要有二分之一是身心障礙者但另外那二分之一我們可以有身心障礙者代表可以有專家學者也可以有機構代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].start |
30414.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].end |
30426.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].text |
第一項要講的是說你的成員可以有包括哪些哪些人所以你要寫得比較完整要有身心障礙者代表原來那個可以我剛剛的意思是說再增加一個身心障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].start |
30429.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].end |
30448.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].text |
對 那這樣就完整了就是你各個你會邀請來的成員你都有寫在你的第一項然後以下才去規範說那個比例是多少因為身心障礙者跟身心障礙者代表他不是同一詞我們剛剛在爭論的就是這個因為代表可能是身心障礙者也可能是代表他的人 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].start |
30449.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].end |
30462.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].text |
我們從第一次討論到現在大家的概念都是身心障礙者是身心障礙者身心障礙者代表他會有兩種意涵他可能本身是身心障礙者那也可能是家長他也可能是機構的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].start |
30463.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].end |
30490.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].text |
對 我覺得這邊我覺得也想釐清他是因以公平開放的原則要領聘那意思是說身心障礙者要二分之一然後在後邊旁邊還有其他的二分之一要有代表就身心障礙者代表又要兒少身心障礙代表然後在民間團體再加上民間團體又還要身心障礙的專家學者還有團體代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].start |
30491.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].end |
30517.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].text |
我不知道這個是意思是說十個人當中有五個人然後其他的都是各一位嗎意思是這樣嗎因為二分之一就是要身心障礙者其他的選項就變成身心障礙者代表身心障礙者代表然後身心障礙那個專家學者然後再來就是民間團體機構然後團體代表所以總共十個人每一個其他都只有一個選項是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].start |
30522.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].end |
30534.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].text |
這個跟周委員報告一下我們建議這個如果是照現在這樣的寫法的話我們如果看第一項的第二款大概來去對照比較容易理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].start |
30535.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].end |
30561.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].text |
因為這個序文裡面各種身分進來的人那單一性別不可以少於總數三分之一所以第一這個序文裡面我們不需要再去單獨寫身心障礙者因為他不管是身心障礙者代表還是團體還是甚至是民間相關組織還是學者專家他都有可能是身心障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].start |
30562.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].end |
30587.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].text |
甚至行政機關裡面可能他派出來的也是身心障礙者所以我們在序文裡面就不用單獨寫身心障礙者但是最後照第一款的規定他的身心障礙者人數就是不能少於總數的二分之一這樣跟第二款的所謂單一性別總數不可以少於三分之一其實概念上就會可以呼應 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].start |
30588.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].end |
30616.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].text |
我們會建議如果是這樣的話是不是在序文裡面就不額外去甄列身心障礙者這樣一個類別因為他是身心障礙者代表有可能就是如同王委員提到他不管是不是有身份那我們不管他是用任何一種屬性進到這個組織裡面來但是最後總算有身心障礙者身份的就是不能少於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].start |
30618.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].end |
30646.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].text |
是不是可以用這樣的一個方式來處理他就是身心障礙者代表如果是身心障礙者他也許就是他可能就是用身心障礙者代表的身分進來不然的話這個其實如果在前面再加一個身心障礙者的時候其實就會有一個邏輯上的小疑問會變成說我是身心障礙者但是我不是身心障礙者的代表我只是身心障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].start |
30648.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].end |
30676.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].text |
好像有點怪怪的好像有點怪怪的那這樣的話就會變成就是我們最後在算這個組織不管是委員會還是小組的時候這個組織成員的總數就是身心障礙者的具有身心障礙身分的總數不可以少於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].start |
30679.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].end |
30694.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].text |
那實際上應該多數都還是會是這個身心障礙者的代表啦或者是這個兒少的身心障礙者代表大概主要的大概會在這一類那可能會有少數會有一些像是學者專家他有身心障礙者的身份等等大概也都有可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].start |
30699.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].end |
30729.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].text |
沒有這麼複雜啦 好不好如果大家的目標就是要聲音障礙者的身份的對象有達到二分之一他或許剛剛從蘇長所講他也是專家學者他也有可能他有可能那個民間團體他有可能本身是這個聲音障礙者的家長對沒有好這樣看這樣文字可不可以還是有什麼地方要再修正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].start |
30733.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].end |
30751.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].text |
不過我覺得這邊也要注意的當初團體也非常的擔憂的是說萬年委員的那我不知道說因為我剛剛講說各縣市的狀態不太一樣的時候未來因為人的關係所以我們只能會不會變成有萬年委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].start |
30752.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].end |
30776.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].text |
你可以馬上提一個附帶決議任期屆滿時不得重複聘聘林委員本來就有提一個附帶決議我們對於附帶決議的部分針對有關未來任期性別的部分我們也已經有做一個回應這個部分我們會來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].start |
30777.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].end |
30799.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].text |
好戶待機已經有了我們就不再贅述好不好謝謝然後這個條文的草案看大家有沒有其他意見這樣可以吧好可以那我們是就依照行政院的提案來修正通過好謝謝那繼續審查保留條文第10條之一請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].start |
30812.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].end |
30835.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].text |
第十條之一的部分那因為是行政院的條文原來是就是針對這個相關的法規等等政策法規等等的可禁用的資訊跟表示意見的機會那這個部分各個委員的提案那我們大概參考了各個委員的提案以及這個聯約請委員他有一個修正的動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].start |
30837.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].end |
30865.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].text |
那委員的修正動議應該是第15號的修正動議那我們覺得這個動議的內容我們覺得是應該是可以來操作的那我們建議是不是第10條之一可能就依林委員的第10條之一的這個動議來做處理那這個文字的部分除了原來行政院版的整條條文我直接宣讀好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].start |
30865.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].end |
30893.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].text |
第四条之一机关构学校事业机构法人或团体于定定影响身心障碍者权益之政策法规或规章时应提供身心障碍者可禁用之资讯及表示意见之机会再增订第二项各目的事业主管机关应定定相关指引与配套措施确保身心障碍者儿童及少年身心障碍者有参与相关政策与法规之研拟之机会 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].start |
30898.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].end |
30916.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].text |
如果是這樣的話就是第一個值可以拿掉好 各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有我們就依照林業勤委員所提的修正動議再修正通過好 等一下我有一個修正動議據說魏夫夫剛剛說可以放到10-2 待會你們會講吧沒有條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].start |
30929.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].end |
30955.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].text |
我本來是放在那個十之一的修正動議後來你們說要有一個十之二你待會會講現在可不可以先講要不然我本來是十之一的修正動議這個應該是我們在處理上可能有就是那個國家人權委員會以後作為那個獨立監督單位然後等等那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].start |
30963.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].end |
30985.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].text |
范委員的本來提案就是有第十條之二那這個部分原來我們在整理的時候是並在一起來討論那范委員的這個部分的話如果要我們也跟委員這邊來做過意見的交換那我們是建議這個部分如果要的話也許第十條之二是不是就單獨列一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].start |
30987.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].end |
31002.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].text |
那這個部分的話就是條文的文字就是監察院國家人權委員會為身心障礙者權利公約第33條所稱之獨立監督機制且因保障身心障礙者及其代表團體充分參與監督過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].start |
31004.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].end |
31031.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].text |
那這個部分的話有這樣的一個如果是這個剛才跟有跟委員這邊做過一些請示那如果可以的話是不是我們就單獨列一個第十條之二好那個十條之二我可以喔那個主席OK這樣好OK那第十條之後就依照歡迎委員所提的修正動議通過好謝謝那繼續處理保留條文第十六條來請行政事務所說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].start |
31048.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].end |
31070.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].text |
第16條主要是針對合理調整的部分那第一項的部分是不是有相關的這個要合理調整的範圍的部分那剛才有第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].start |
31080.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].end |
31095.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].text |
第16條的第一項的部分在先前第一輪討論的時候已經會先加入運動這個部分的話我們是建議當時是我們會建議加入文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].start |
31096.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].end |
31114.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].text |
那這個部分的話我們剛才是有跟林玉琴委員這邊做一個請示那是說這個部分是不是要加主要的當時在討論是增加這個休閒的部分是不是文字要放進來休閒娛樂的文字要放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].start |
31120.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].end |
31149.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].text |
那我們考慮到現在現行的部分的話因為因為52條已經現行條52條已經有在用休閒的這樣的一個文字那我們就我們建議是不是就在這邊我們就直接就把它增訂到第一項裡面來可以啊可以啊對啊所以休閒原本就不是新的一個名稱啊對啊原本裡面52條就已經有放了對啊蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].start |
31150.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].end |
31156.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].text |
50條是休閒及文化活動所以我們就增進休閒把休閒納進來文化休閒運動公職人員選舉與罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].start |
31171.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].end |
31184.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].text |
這個我要請政治博士 女士那一天你有特別提到說公職人員選舉罷免等權利原本是有拿個委員會放棄的 是政治參與因為這個公職人員選舉罷免你們50 剛剛講的52條之幾嘛 第幾款也是講政治參與那我不曉得你們整個法條的連貫性 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].start |
31195.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].end |
31220.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].text |
對你們的靈慣性要不要整合一下就會變成這樣因為當時16條說我是沒有看到剛剛講的50條之極那是在第幾款裡面市集經有那個休閒及文化還有政治參與所以這個請思考一下我的印象是這樣那個政治應該會更廣一點因為他現在變政治是剩下公職人員選舉跟罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].start |
31222.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].end |
31228.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].text |
是不是那不知道那個衛福部可以解釋一下這個差異嗎或是哪位解釋很簡單嘛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].start |
31235.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].end |
31261.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].text |
大家對不對幹委員你也是那個研究政治社會學嘛對不對我們有廣義說有狹義說啊那個狹義的話主要就是voting的行為嘛如果說我們在政治在那個政治科學裡面談到有政治參與事實上是一個最廣泛的嘛對不對也包括社會運動啊對不對也包括對於這個lobbing等等這些嘛對啊對不對我們有廣義狹義啊就看大家要採取廣義或狹義嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].start |
31263.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].end |
31289.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].text |
不是不是不是 我個人的認知不是這樣啦因為是你後面有一個對照條文他已經有提到政治參與對不對 是這樣包含休閒也在那個條文裡面有所以我才會提醒各位說我們在審法案的過程裡面一定是有前後條文的呼應嘛 連貫性嘛那用詞前置專有名詞 答答答不會跳脫太多啦所以這是有待我這是提交給大家做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].start |
31307.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].end |
31311.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].text |
52啦52是公平之政治參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].start |
31319.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].end |
31343.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].text |
五十二跟五十二之四好像都有講到政治參與嗎那這邊要不要就用政治參與因為我的版本這邊也是寫政治參與跟委員報告一下這個五十二條的第一項的各款他其實是一個比較偏向促進的行為啦所以五十二條的第一項的時候他的我們直白的說就是他其實沒有帶罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].start |
31345.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].end |
31365.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].text |
那他是怎麼樣去提供去讓這個身心障礙者去做相關的參與但是他是沒有罰則但是16條第一項他其實是這個將來如果沒有辦法做合理調整的時候這個在後面我們的已經討論過的條文裡面現在還保留他是帶罰則而且罰還的額度還蠻高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].start |
31367.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].end |
31395.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].text |
那所以因為考慮到這個部分的話所以如果是用政治參與的話那可能就要考慮到這個政治參與的範圍要定到多寬例如說如果我們把集會遊行也納進去的話那將來辦集會遊行的人如果有身心障礙者參與的時候那他就必須要對身心障礙者在這個集會遊行中也要能夠提供相關的合理調整那我們是覺得因為主要是考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].start |
31396.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].end |
31415.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].text |
核心的問題是考慮到合理調整它是一個在國內是一個全新我們大家剛剛開始操作的一個公約的概念那我們是覺得說我們是不是先從一個比較核心比較聚焦的部分來先做相關的處理那我們是建議說是不是先從公職人員的選舉罷免它的範圍比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].start |
31415.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].end |
31441.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].text |
我同意有罰則的先從選舉罷免投票這種權益開始我另外想問就是合理調整跟歧視的關係因為我的版本有直接跟間接的歧視的定義因為這個部分非常的重要因為無障礙環境是一個一般性的但是就是說針對個別的是不是能夠做到合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].start |
31442.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].end |
31467.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].text |
那個是一個蠻重要的一個手段也是那個CRPD的公約裡面第五條很明確的說拒絕提供合理調整就是歧視因為他這樣才有辦法針對就是個別的這個環境能夠提他想要的改善那不知道這個部分衛福部目前還沒有放進去好再請周知委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].start |
31471.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].end |
31495.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].text |
等一下再重複一次范瑀委員所談的這個因為團體一直在反映到現在都還在反映歧視應該要直接寫出來包括直接歧視間接歧視拒絕提供合理調整及騷擾所以這幾個字眼他們希望能夠就放進來那第二個謝謝那個署這邊是有對這個舉證責任在做文字上的處理啦謝謝不過不好意思團體代表團體們還是認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].start |
31497.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].end |
31513.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].text |
不夠還是不夠清楚就是說這個文字剛剛我們看到的時候就覺得很熬夜就是說寫得還不夠清楚就是第二個這個文字可能要再處理第一個我們這個歧視內容要明定要把它寫出來直接歧視間接歧視拒絕提供合理調整及騷擾好 謝謝好請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].start |
31523.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].end |
31545.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].text |
這個有關兩位委員提到這個拒絕提供合理調整的部分確實如同剛才跟各位委員報告的因為合理調整其實在國內真的是一個很新的一個算是一個很新的概念國內也在嘗試在等於是在逐步要去建立它的一個運作的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].start |
31546.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].end |
31574.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].text |
所以我們現行在 對不起這個在行政院版的條文裡面所以我們在設計的時候我們是在這個目前設計是在第100條之一的部分那我們這個整個條文的設計是如果對於這個合理調整的部分那它流程上面它是這個有合理調整需要的這個身心障礙者他會要求這個義務人來做合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].start |
31575.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].end |
31591.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].text |
那這個中間雙方要進行相關的協商那如果協商看並且依照協商的結果來做相關的調整的部分那因為考慮到這是很新的一個概念所以我們在第100條之一我們現在設計的一個處罰的機制是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].start |
31596.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].end |
31620.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].text |
這個合理調整的話如果這個義務的是連協商都拒絕就是一開始他就拒絕協商的話那麼這樣的話我們認為他是這個完全他沒有要去做調整的意願那我們這個時候我們會對他來做相關的行政的處罰那這個部分的話我們在第100條之一有設計相對應的罰則但是因為考慮到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].start |
31626.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].end |
31643.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].text |
合理調整是一個很全新的概念如果只是因為這個義務人和身心障礙者之間這個調整的協商但是沒有辦法達成協議那就馬上就認定是不是會構成這個不做合理調整去進行如果針對是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].start |
31645.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].end |
31667.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].text |
去進行處罰的話那麼我們可能就要考慮我們總體社會總體的是不是在運用這個新的觀念的成熟度那我們是在這個部分我們是持比較審慎的想法所以我們是大概設計是如果這個義務人他拒絕協商一開始就關大門拒絕協商那我們覺得這個部分是應該要去對他做一個處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].start |
31668.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].end |
31689.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].text |
那但是對於這個協商的結果的部分那我們是希望在這個透過我們各種行政上的一些指引以及操作的方法來輔導這些義務的單位那怎麼樣去運作一個在台 適合台灣本土條件的一個這個協商跟這個合理調整的一個運作的模式以上好 請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].start |
31695.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].end |
31713.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].text |
对这条真的很重要那我想就是你那个罚则就是说还会先叫来协商协商之后他如果不要的话你那个101是罚我刚刚看1万到3万还是是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].start |
31715.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].end |
31741.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].text |
他如果是一開始拒絕協商我們就直接處罰了那1到5萬嘛那那個你們應該有看到那個國家人權委員會對行政院版的今年1月20號的那個意見啦人家還是委員會會議通過的他先肯定你們有放入了這個就是合理調整入法而且就是說有這個不來協商啊然後罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].start |
31741.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].end |
31765.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].text |
那但是他第二點說為行政院版第16條並未依據CRPD第二條CRPD第6號一般性意見以及CRPD第二次國家報告結論性意見明確規定拒絕合理調整即為歧視國家人權委員會建議參照行政院嚴寧中之反歧視法草案第4條第4項文字明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].start |
31766.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].end |
31793.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].text |
拒绝依身心障碍者权益保障法或等等的合理调整者为基于身心障碍之歧视所以他们国家人权委员会还开过会了公开的会议的意见他觉得你还是要把拒绝合理调整者为基于身心障碍之歧视放进去这个是国家人权委员会的会议的结论 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].start |
31794.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].end |
31819.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].text |
他雖然肯定你們有這個東西那我自己是覺得我寧願你那個罰款輕一點但是要把它放進去而不要說這個沒有放進去因為你那個罰款還有就是說協商啊協商不來或者是協商之後沒有結果才會處罰嘛那如果沒有這個部分國際上就說你這個最重要的工具沒有了那怎麼辦呢以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].start |
31827.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].end |
31844.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].text |
來請社長回應 回應完之後要來處理開會事件 包吾委員我覺得我們要做很多事情我覺得我在剛剛前面我已經 我昨天已經說過了CRPD他真的是一個憲章他是一個普世的 但是聯合國的高專 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].start |
31846.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].end |
31870.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].text |
聯合國的這個CRPD高專裡面 高專辦裡面還講各國必須根據他現在自己的情況來做相對應的一個處理那剛剛我們署長剛剛在這邊也講到了整個合理調整我來重述一次在CRPD裡面主要指的是因於身心障礙者個別障礙需求在不造成比例或過度負擔的情況之下經協商程序而進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].start |
31875.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].end |
31901.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].text |
我覺得我們這一個我們是一個良好的目的但是真的要考慮一下是不是要給台灣社會還有相關的企業我們大家有一個整個適應跟學習的機會所以我們在這裡面我們提出兩年我們大家在這裡面有個learning process大家來共同來學習不可以吃緊都胖碗我是覺得在這邊一個非常善意的提醒那如果說要一下子一蹴可擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].start |
31902.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].end |
31929.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].text |
我覺得大家考量這裡面大家的一個整個學習過程所以這裡面任何的一個理想我覺得都很好可是這裡面任何的regulation都是有cost而這cost包括經濟跟社會成本我們也不希望就是說大家一下子做下去之後那造成整個無法執行我請各位翻到第71頁71頁裡面有引用瑞典的一個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].start |
31931.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].end |
31959.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].text |
這瑞庭案例是什麼樣的我再重述一次他來邀一個身心障礙者聽語障者應徵短期8個月要求內容是應徵者要具備語音的電話能力並且接聽電話的判斷內容急迫性結果未獲錄取他就告就告了之後他他的敗訴法院的一個基本理由很非常簡單因為他要求就是說好我是我是聽語障者但是呢你在這裡面你我沒有我你雇主可以合理調整他工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].start |
31960.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].end |
31983.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].text |
你可以拼其他人那我不要接法院後來判決是民事的判決喔基本上後來敗訴所以我現在基本上有兩個我最重要的是有兩個精神第一個這是一個利益良善的一個idea我覺得我們應該要做但是請給我們自己一個相當的學習跟適應時間第二點各國基本上有關於這個部分基本上都是透過民事判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].start |
31984.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].end |
32008.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].text |
透過民事判決那我們也強調我們希望透過這一段時間大家累積自己台灣本土自己本身的審查基準跟判例我覺得這可能似乎是一個比較可長可久但委員如果堅持的話那那我也在這邊我這邊是有錄影存證的我也把我的行政部門的立場把它說明出來以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].start |
32010.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].end |
32021.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].text |
好 各位在委員會所講的每句話都會成為呈堂證供大家都跑不掉我先處理開會的時間 不好意思因為我們開會是到5點半因為我們的相關的條文還有差不多15條比較會像這樣討論到的應該剩下不到3條就看各位的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].start |
32033.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].end |
32048.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].text |
的想法是要延到整個第二輪走完還是要廖召偉很好意的說今天如果真的審不完下禮拜他要挪一天時間那我們繼續來處理所以這個也很感謝廖召偉我必須要做這樣跟各位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].start |
32053.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].end |
32075.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].text |
主席我觉得你们精神都还不错会议时间就尊重主席针对这条其实我是建议卫福部可以思考一下你是不是公立机关学校先行私立的部分他比较需要时间学习的让他分流可以往前走一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].start |
32077.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].end |
32094.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].text |
那我是覺得那也許這條保留大家再來討論一下說有沒有什麼狀況就是說讓台灣的進步可以往前然後但是就是說有一些需要學習的特別是私人機關像剛舉的那個例子是公司的例子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].start |
32095.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].end |
32107.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].text |
那那個部分我們讓他有比較多的時間學習我是覺得就是公立機關啊考試啊這種好像基本上就比較容易做到的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].start |
32110.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].end |
32128.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].text |
來 請王志勛委員謝謝主席剛剛的提醒我們本來表定是五點半對那如果說我們今天在剩下沒有幾條又到往下個禮拜延伸的話我比較擔心的是我們這麼多的行政官員在現場那下個禮拜可能為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].start |
32129.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].end |
32147.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].text |
少數的幾條所有的官員又要到現場來其實相對是如果可以把今天處理到一個段落的話是比較建議是這樣的執行模式以上請主席參考OK我沒有意見但是萬老師有意見他已經非常憔悴了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].start |
32149.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].end |
32165.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].text |
那各位如果沒有意見我們就因為因為各位可以看條文因為大家都在這個地方就知道可能後續卸項16條這個已經已經所剩無幾了那其他應該比較有快的共識我們再讓一下好不好好好OK |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].start |
32166.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].end |
32187.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].text |
好那16條如果還有意見我們就先先先保留了好不好好對那我還是還是一樣要謝謝廖召偉謝謝那繼續處理這個第有委員提的22條還有這個修正第二十案是不是請行政單位用最精準最快速的方法來回應來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].start |
32200.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].end |
32225.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].text |
第二十二條的部分那這個先前在提到這個對於需求的部分那先前討論主要是針對委員的版本裡面有提到這個可能像陪同就醫或者等等的部分因為考慮到主管機關別或者是這個服務的內容的部分要怎麼樣來配套來做一個處理那這個部分的話這個我們的議事室有和 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].start |
32227.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].end |
32245.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].text |
林委員這邊有做過一些說明也謝謝林委員這邊我們透過一個修正動議有22條的部分有一個動議的條文委員這邊也已經有先簽名是不是我們把整個條文的文字做一個宣讀好 請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].start |
32248.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].end |
32270.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].text |
而第22條各級衛生主管機關應整合醫療資源依身心障礙者個別需求提供保健醫療服務並協助身心障礙福利機構提供所需之保健醫療服務前向身心障礙身心障礙者經直轄市縣市政府評估需陪同就醫時應協助之 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].start |
32272.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].end |
32286.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].text |
好 各位委員 針對林慧琴委員所提的修正動議是針對22條 有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照修正動議通過繼續來處理保留條文第25條請行政單位做說明2525條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].start |
32303.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].end |
32317.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].text |
應該是針對醫療服務的部分有應該是針對醫療服務的無障礙環境那這個原來是說要針對偏鄉的部分要針對一個附帶決議那這個部分應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].start |
32329.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].end |
32358.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].text |
是1是10嗎25條來那25條的部分的話也有我們已經有準備一個這樣附帶決議的文字那也請跟有跟陳道志成委員這邊有做過報告第25條那附帶決議的文字那委員這邊有看過有做一個有做一個簽署的動作有嗎 可以嗎可以 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].start |
32360.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].end |
32387.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].text |
那25條有什麼地方要再來25條部分原來在討論的時候是條文文字已經過了但是需要增加一個附帶決議那我附帶決議的文字我再宣讀一次為增加身心障礙者醫療照護照護可靜性改善醫療復健機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].start |
32389.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].end |
32408.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].text |
護理機構無障礙設施設備或服務衛生福利部應於本法修正後就醫療及護理機構之設施設備服務措施等進行檢討改善並將相關輔導或獎勵方式內容評估納入本條第二項授權辦法定制以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].start |
32410.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].end |
32426.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].text |
好這樣可以嗎25條就是維持現行條文通過然後互代決議剛剛已經宣讀陳委員可以接受繼續處理保有條文第27條有三位委員 四位委員所提的這個條文的修正請行政機關做回應第27條是教育部這邊那是不是請教育部來就跟委員報告請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].start |
32440.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].end |
32466.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].text |
有關那個第27條的部分因為有提到兒童客戶照顧那兒童客戶照顧是兒全法第23條規定是有地方政府的權責那另外有關那個寒假的照顧班也是各個縣市政府會考慮他的師資人力等等然後會多元的來辦理所以基於這兩項都是地方政府的權責我們是建議在第5項27條第5項的後段最後兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].start |
32467.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].end |
32484.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].text |
兩句話可不可以刪除就是經費不足者逗號由中央主管機關補助資這兩句話建議可以刪除那之前有跟委員協商了一下那是不是可以第五項的部分把這兩句話刪掉謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].start |
32487.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].end |
32505.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].text |
那个刚刚郭玉琴委员跟我有跟教育部讨论前面那个部分没问题就是到校就就学期间后面有夸号韩课后及韩暑假辅导班这个要加入那个是不是那个加入然后后面那个就删除 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].start |
32506.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].end |
32530.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].text |
就是到校就學期間後面有括號寒課後及寒暑假輔導班括號自行上下學者後面於到校就學期間括號寒課後及寒暑假輔導班括號 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].start |
32536.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].end |
32545.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].text |
好然後這邊就OK然後最後就刪除那個經費不足者由中央教育主管機關補助之這樣子就OK好謝謝這樣可以嗎可以喔那27條是就依照歡迎委員所提的這個條文修正通過好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].start |
32564.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].end |
32569.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].text |
那繼續處理保留條文第28條請說明28是誰 一樣是教育部 28配合辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].start |
32584.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].end |
32608.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].text |
就是照我的版本嗎我有條文我不知道其他委員有沒有我也有就是無法外出就學及偏鄉無法外出就學及偏鄉是嗎是照我們的版本嗎我的范雲的版本對就是在單位服務頓後面加一個頓號無法外出就學及偏鄉民眾黨黨團版本也有及偏鄉對偏鄉 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].start |
32612.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].end |
32638.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].text |
啊你們三個挑很差不多吧還是怎樣民眾黨團 歡迎委員 一個是無法外出及偏鄉 次序不太一樣而已就是好 資深心障礙學齡者解決其教育相關問題無法外出就學偏鄉應該差不多吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].start |
32643.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].end |
32652.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].text |
差不多吧好可以因為只有順序不一樣內容一樣所以就依照民眾黨團還有歡迎委員還有國會委員所提的修正通過修正通過好謝謝繼續處理保留條文第30條下一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].start |
32673.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].end |
32700.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].text |
是教育嗎一原條文然後提附帶決議是不是可以報告一下對就是建議能夠依照原條文然後就是有本部會提個附帶決議附帶決議給我們看了嗎沒還沒看到有就簽有給我他們有簽了是不是25案第25案25案裡面簽了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].start |
32704.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].end |
32729.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].text |
林委員有簽 林業勤委員簽的其他兩位還沒有簽 要不要一邊看一下內容就簽因為提案的委員不一樣對啦 當然不一樣林業勤委員簽也不邀你簽 這也怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].start |
32743.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].end |
32745.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].text |
現行條文是這樣可以嗎部隊決議席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].start |
32764.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].end |
32771.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].text |
為增進身心障礙者、身心障礙學生補給服務之內涵不限於提供或補助補給器材 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].start |
32784.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].end |
32805.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].text |
這個好像跟我們的條文內容不太一樣我們是那個個人協助服務還有無障礙格式教材資訊還有無障礙交通跟應考場所與方式林玉琴委員那個比較是在輔具輔具的涵蓋內容好像不完全一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].start |
32807.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].end |
32835.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].text |
那這條是不是先保留啊因為這個教育的這個部分還可以啊可以你們就請教育部就一樣提一個附帶決議針對范雲委員跟郭勤委員的針對場所還有是無障礙的應考方式與場所還有無障礙的交通個人協助的部分可以了好我們先保留沒關係好謝謝繼續處理保留條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].start |
32838.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].end |
32861.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].text |
第四章之一那這個有三位委員都有提案歡迎委員羅廷偉還有我們的廖翔昭委那這個就容我這樣處理好不好各位委員都有提到47條之一歡迎委員 對不起是47條之一到47條之二 之三 之四然後繼續是第四章的之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].start |
32863.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].end |
32889.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].text |
四七條之五跟四七條之六那羅廷委員跟廖翔委員均一樣就是第四章之一那條文有四七條之一 之二 之三 之四 之五 之六 之七第四章之二 四七條之八 之九是不是 請大家來做說明一下這要如何處理對不起 後面還有王玉民還有萬美玲委員抱歉 有點漏掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].start |
32893.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].end |
32906.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].text |
針對幾位各位委員有關提到不管是在自立生活或者是社區居住的部分那分別有訂專章或者增訂相關的條文的部分那我們由於考慮到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].start |
32907.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].end |
32930.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].text |
現在這兩個服務的內容其實它本身和現行條文第50條這個對於個人支持服務的部分它是有一定程度的關聯那而且在第51條的部分現在已經有授權訂立個人服務的個人照顧服務的一個辦法那對於這個不管是社區居住或者等等都已經有相關具體的條文來做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].start |
32932.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].end |
32947.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].text |
那這個其實在服務的內容的部分也和這個原來委員提案的這個精神上面是有相通的那我們會是建議是說因為這一類的服務其實大概都會隨著時間的經過在政府能力或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].start |
32948.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].end |
32972.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].text |
這個社會形態上面會有一些也許會有一些改變那如果可能的話是不是容許像這一類細部的具體服務的部分能夠在未來能夠容許我們繼續在法規命令裡面來做相關的處理那這個在法律的部分的話我們建議是不是有機會能夠就先不予增訂這個我們大概一個初步的建議那這個也請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].start |
32973.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].end |
32974.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].text |
也請這個召委和幾位委員來做一個這個參考以上好 請六雙召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].start |
32983.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].end |
33006.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].text |
我想我們劉昭偉也知道這個是很重要的一塊那我相信這個一時之間我們是希望說希望他把他設定的就是入法讓這些障礙團體都可以安心那我想行政單位不然是不是這樣還是這幾條再保留這個帳保留然後之後乾脆直接送入委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].start |
33008.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].end |
33023.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].text |
這一張有關於個人個人助理制度入法這件事情這幾張OK 沒關係還有其他委員要表示意見嗎或是說再保留再討論也可以 我都OK尊重委員會的意見來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].start |
33033.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].end |
33044.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].text |
請說 個人助理是團體非常非常期盼的一再一再強調的部分我們覺得有需要再花時間討論好 謝謝那各位委員還沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].start |
33046.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].end |
33068.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].text |
沒有 那我們第四 剛剛宣讀的有委員煥雲還有羅廷委員 還有廖偉祥召委當然還有王玉民委員 萬敏玲委員針對第四章之一相關條文還有第四章之二相關條文我們就保留 謝謝那繼續處理保留條文第52條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].start |
33077.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].end |
33078.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].text |
來 請行政單位說明52條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].start |
33091.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].end |
33107.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].text |
五十二條之一的部分那各委員的版本的話我們這個有主要是在這個通通設計的部分那各委員的版本在經過找這個先前的討論之後那我們會建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].start |
33110.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].end |
33128.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].text |
請我們稍微讓我們同仁找一下那個檔案投影的條文已經來了那我們會建議這個在行政院的版本以內那我們參考幾位委員的提案其中包括羅廷偉委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].start |
33128.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].end |
33143.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].text |
那這個部分我們建議是不是就甄列一項就是有關在甄列第二項那就是各級主管機關及目的事業主管機關應分別訂定通用設計推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].start |
33145.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].end |
33166.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].text |
及實施計畫那這個在操作的部分那能夠讓這個有關在做通用設計的部分能夠有更具體的一個推動的措施那這個是我們大概參考先前的討論結果我們建議做就條文做這樣的一個處理那來請各位委員來參考 以上來 行政院所提的這個在修正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].start |
33175.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].end |
33202.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].text |
條文 各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 那我們就依 還是要看一下好 看一下還是應該成交紅色部分而已嘛 對不對對 剛加的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].start |
33204.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].end |
33232.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].text |
好那我們52條之一就依照行政院提案再修正對不起好請來我一個小小提議我記得前面也有討論到某一條就是說要不要加上這個並編列相關預算指引不然會變成是你只做計畫不做不做修正或者是沒有辦法落實這部分可不可以行政部門說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].start |
33234.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].end |
33262.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].text |
來 署長這個各級主管機關在訂定計畫的時候一般大概都會有會去籌措相對應的裁員一般是會但是這個部分的話我們還是由於剛才在之前討論的時候是有一個討論到一個點是說因為這個通用設計的部分它其實它是會包含在很多我現在工作的計畫內容裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[1196].start |
33264.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[1196].end |
33277.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[1196].text |
例如說我可能是我的建築或者我的設計的時候我要在裡面去參考做相關的通用設計那麼它在整個建築計畫的時候裡面就會把它放進去但是在編預算的時候它不見得會單獨編列一筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[1197].start |
33280.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[1197].end |
33302.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[1197].text |
針對通用設計的預算不一定會單獨做這樣子的編列所以那大概是考慮到有這樣子的一個狀況那這個部分的話因為通用設計大概主要考慮的就是一個公平使用彈性使用然後做直覺的使用而且資訊能夠明顯可以容許錯誤所以他通常會跟現有的運用能夠去做一個相關的整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[1198].start |
33303.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[1198].end |
33329.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[1198].text |
所以他在做設計或者處理的時候大概都會跟現有一些服務或者是改善他就整合在一起一起來做相關的處理所以不一定會單獨編列預算所以我們是建議這個文字是不是能夠保留一點彈性又不單獨列進來以上好我的想法是說其實如果像你這樣講他已經有編列了他就算在另外一個設計計畫裡面其實他這個也可以拉出來算是在就是算是他有編列因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1199].start |
33331.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1199].end |
33350.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[1199].text |
因為不然你好像變成是如果法條質疑這樣就好像我寫個計劃就沒事而且再何況有一些機關它可能環境也比較老舊了好 那這個東西是不是必須要有這樣子的文字才可以讓它落實這個是我希望行政機關可以參考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1200].start |
33354.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[1200].end |
33369.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[1200].text |
不曉得次長懂不懂我的意思因為其實就算是各個機關它有一個新的譬如說我舉例好了地方上有那個小學它要老舊的電梯要換成無障礙的電梯甚至它可能要設計到地下室停車場 |
| transcript.whisperx[1201].start |
33370.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[1201].end |
33396.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[1201].text |
好那這個電梯的計劃裡面他本身會有說我要提供無障礙設施嘛那這個當然就算是在這個條文裡他有編列預算了嘛好所以我覺得這兩件事情並不打架啊啊我只是覺得說在如果有這樣列出來會讓機關比較也放心不然要說啊你叫我做啊我就做個計劃因為我也沒有其他沒有辦法籌措其他的錢來做改善好我希望這個是不是行政機關可以去思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1202].start |
33397.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1202].end |
33419.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[1202].text |
其實這個總體上來說會投注經費這個部分其實不管是行政部門還是委員的部分其實我們大概看法是一致的但是在行政操作的部分這個因為這個先前大概不管是交通部或者是內政部這邊大概都有先做過一些說明我是不是可以拜託請兩個部會如果可以的話是不是可以再做進一步的一些補充謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1203].start |
33426.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[1203].end |
33426.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[1203].text |
這個叫做迪奧米古 |
| transcript.whisperx[1204].start |
33434.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[1204].end |
33456.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1204].text |
報告主席及召委這個部分其實我們以建築物為例我們現行的建築法規已經在04年105年我們做過無障礙環境的一個相關條文的一個大修那對於現行的建築物的無障礙設施設計規範而言已經納入了有關於通用設計的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1205].start |
33457.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[1205].end |
33473.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1205].text |
所以剛剛廖長偉所關心的是說如果在未來他會不會有這些設施他會去要符合通用設計的部分教論會在這邊做補充報告針對那個剛委員這邊有人在發言等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1206].start |
33475.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[1206].end |
33498.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[1206].text |
這個部分他已經是法規所必須符合的條件不然他沒有辦法符合相關的程序所以在這個部分裡面他已經是以我們現在對於建築物而言他已經是以法規的位階去要求他務必要達到這樣的一個設計的部分所以有關於經費編列的部分我們建議說是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1207].start |
33499.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[1207].end |
33515.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[1207].text |
就免再增列 那由大家在相關的規定當中去納入有關於通用設計的理念跟有關的規定 那去落實的執行 以上說明好 姜牧這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1208].start |
33516.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1208].end |
33540.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[1208].text |
交通部這邊補充報告因為針對編列預算這件事情因為其實除了剛剛所提到的建築物的部分以外另外還有一塊是車輛那比如說要把車輛另外把通用設計到底花了多少錢去特別列出來其實他困難度在比如說高鐵他在打造的時候就一次打完了但是對於這個通用設計的部分他到底花多少錢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1209].start |
33542.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[1209].end |
33557.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[1209].text |
在一次打造完之後要特別再拉出來其實他是他是有困難去去做這樣的事情所以這部分是建議還是先有這個計畫就好那至於預算的部分就讓各單位來來做一個處理以上好那個廖召偉好我本期 |
| transcript.whisperx[1210].start |
33565.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[1210].end |
33591.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[1210].text |
我覺得尊重但是是不是也是一樣就是你們做一個附帶決議就是說要儘速的推廣因為其實我們在第一線發現一件事情就是很多時候有了這樣子的通用設計規範可是很多的機構機關是沒有足夠的沒有被編列預算說去改善這件事都要很很用力的去爭取好然後又拖個一兩三年那其實我覺得尤其是教育現場我覺得很多有這樣的狀況可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1211].start |
33594.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[1211].end |
33597.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[1211].text |
好的 我們把文字做一個整理然後再給委員 提供給委員這邊來過目 |
| transcript.whisperx[1212].start |
33606.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[1212].end |
33631.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[1212].text |
剛才跟廖召偉報告過那目前條文的文字是可以接受我們剛才提供的建議文字但是我們會再補一個有關這個請各機關能夠再協助各機關能夠要盡量的去編列相關的經費來去做通用設計的一些推廣跟計畫的部分這個我們會再準備一個再建議的文字來給召偉參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[1213].start |
33632.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[1213].end |
33651.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[1213].text |
附帶決議在38案好OK可以了好謝謝那52條之一就依照行政院提案修正通過有沒有意見沒有我們就照這樣通過謝謝繼續處理保留條文第53條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1214].start |
33658.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[1214].end |
33687.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[1214].text |
53條是不是麻煩交通部來幫忙說明 謝謝交通部這邊說明第53條那針對早上委員所討論的部分是針對應該是針對陳冠廷委員這邊所提到要不要再增列一年內提據改算計畫那經過部裡面的延伸這個部分我們就遵照委員的意見把一年內來加入 以上不是喔你搞錯了這一條不是陳冠廷委員提的嘿 |
| transcript.whisperx[1215].start |
33692.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[1215].end |
33718.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[1215].text |
你怪怪的 你怎麼都會怪怪的有好多位委員對他很多委員提的啦陳冠廷委員是剛剛有一條你特別走出來看的是另外一條 後面的所以這一條你要怎樣 請說整理改善 改善的時間一年內屋裡面可以配合辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1216].start |
33729.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[1216].end |
33751.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1216].text |
所以你是要依照陳冠廷委員所提的這個版本通過是不是因為早上是早上是那個委員有提到說如果那個如果只有沒有沒有設定期限的話就似乎好像對於這個整個改善遙遙無期所以期待是能夠把那個改善的時間能夠列入條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1217].start |
33754.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[1217].end |
33768.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[1217].text |
喔好所以你的意思是這個陳冠廷委員所提的版本是你可以接受的所以就依照陳冠廷委員所提的版本來通過嗎是不是那各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1218].start |
33783.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[1218].end |
33802.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[1218].text |
沒有嗎 各位沒有其他意見喔這個五三條是很多委員都有提喔各位看一下是不是提到忘記了那不是另外那個單獨陳冠廷委所提的單一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1219].start |
33810.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[1219].end |
33815.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[1219].text |
那當然就只有陳冠廷委員要一年的期限其他委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1220].start |
33841.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[1220].end |
33855.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[1220].text |
來 有嗎以他要依陳冠廷委員的版本所以就在倒數倒數第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[1221].start |
33860.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[1221].end |
33880.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1221].text |
剛剛53條是關於那個交通我們早上有討論到嘛我的部分就是有加一句話說應替代改善方案或合理調整然後若有困難的話要負舉證責任還有就是那個第三項大眾運輸工具無障礙設施項目設置後面要加急服務與資訊提供這個現在有了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1222].start |
33889.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[1222].end |
33890.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[1222].text |
沒有了這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1223].start |
33937.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[1223].end |
33944.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[1223].text |
如果還沒的話就一起保留好了這條啦沒有意見好那我三條我們一樣保留齁因為因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1224].start |
33945.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[1224].end |
33973.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1224].text |
剛剛交通部是希望依照陳冠廷委員跟現有條文是那個一定期限改為一年內提取改正計劃他們是可接受那其他的委員提的他是不列入在這個修正的內容裡面好53條我們保留53保留那繼續處理保留條文第54條有院版的還有其他委員的版本請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1225].start |
33975.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[1225].end |
33999.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1225].text |
54條的部分先前保留其實對於現有已經修已經這個提案修正的條文的文字的部分各位委員大概都我們現在是照這個跟各位委員的版本內容都相同那早上有保留原因是說對於這個這個改善的部分如果是分年計畫如果做不到的部分是不是需要一個監督的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[1226].start |
34000.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[1226].end |
34024.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[1226].text |
那這個部分跟各位委員報告一下那現在其實現在不管是這個對於交通部或者是內政部對於中央對於這個直轄市縣市政府也都還是有相關的督導考核的機制那所以這個部分的話我們是建議是不是可以對於這個委員剛才所關心的這個有關在人行道7樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[1227].start |
34026.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[1227].end |
34047.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[1227].text |
道路的兩邊的這個無障礙的這樣的一個處理的部分是不是能夠就請相關的部會把他將來就納到對於地方政府督導考核的項目裡面那就這個部分來做相關的來督促地方政府來持續的來就這個方面來繼續的持續的來做努力以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1228].start |
34048.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[1228].end |
34063.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[1228].text |
這個可以願辦因為後來我們已經有國家人權委會那個監督機制然後我想這邊就OK好各位我有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就依照行政院提案通過謝謝繼續處理保護條文第61條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1229].start |
34072.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[1229].end |
34091.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[1229].text |
第61條剛才討論的時候主要是在除了對於這個聽語障的服務之外有擴及到是不是非聽語障傳遞的需求的部分我們建議這個部分我們大概具體的建議是是不是有可能先維持行政院版的這樣的一個條文的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1230].start |
34092.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[1230].end |
34117.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[1230].text |
但是針對這個要擴及到飛艇與帳的部分因為就是政府的部門在資源許可的情況之下我們就努力的來促成那我們建議是不是有可能我們甄列一個附帶決議來做相關的處理不過這一部分應該先前還沒有跟委員來做相關的報告那是不是我們可以請我們同仁這邊有檔案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1231].start |
34121.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[1231].end |
34143.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[1231].text |
還沒有打開好那這個如果有附帶決議的話那我就支持就是不保留啦依照原本好我們我是不是容我們我們給請陳菊成委員跟范委員這邊來幫我們看一下那我也一併先宣讀一下我們這個文字那大概我們建議的附帶決議文字如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1232].start |
34144.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[1232].end |
34167.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[1232].text |
中央主管機關應會同各直轄市縣市政府設立手語翻譯同步聽打之服務聯繫機制來落實聽覺或語言功能障礙者參與公共事務之權益以上好 附帶決議各位看一下如果可以的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1233].start |
34169.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1233].end |
34194.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[1233].text |
對不起我們應該漏一個字應該是落實非聽覺或語言功能障礙者參與這才會跟上午討論應該是打字打漏了這個應該是打漏了抱歉所以我請教一下關於公共事務可以稍微再擴展到社會參與這個部分你們還是覺得你們沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1234].start |
34196.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[1234].end |
34222.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1234].text |
我們跟委員報告我們建議這個部分先不要進到條文的文字裡面來因為這個如果我們用一個比較不好一個可能可以思考的例子就是這個health in all policy的時候那如果是最身心障礙者我們希望是所有跟身心障礙者有關的各種部門他在跟身心障礙者接觸的時候他應該要盡量去提供讓身心障礙者相關的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1235].start |
34224.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[1235].end |
34249.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[1235].text |
但是如果我們把社會參與納進來的時候因為這個條文主要規範的是直轄縣市政府所以就會變成是這個除了法律裡面有明文要求例如說也許像交通像金融像等等以外那其他的他會說回到這個條文來說那這個相關的聽語障或者等等這個非聽語障的溝通的部分是不是說那優先政府先提供服務就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1236].start |
34250.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[1236].end |
34271.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[1236].text |
那這個反而會讓這個跟身心障礙者提供服務的這些社會參與的對象他會跑到第二線去那我們是覺得這個部分的話我們覺得跟整個社會怎麼去提供給身心障礙者相關接觸服務的這個原來這個概念可能會有一點會變得有一點點不一樣那但是政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[1237].start |
34273.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[1237].end |
34298.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[1237].text |
這個 這樣的處理是讓政府是在民間如果在做相對比較有補足那政府資源許可的情況下我們來做一個支援所以你們會給民間誘因你們會給民間誘因或是補助讓他們去把那這個部分就是讓民間能夠做的盡可能讓民間來去來去協助那這個優先順序上面我們覺得這個如果一旦通通放進去的話這個優先順序可能就會變得有一點不一樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1238].start |
34302.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[1238].end |
34322.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[1238].text |
理解好那個第61條那個固態決議剛剛範圍委員有看過他是認可那看其他委員要不要簽一下還是怎麼樣尊重各位意見那是不是61條我們就依照行政院提案通過好謝謝那繼續處理保留條文第71條通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1239].start |
34331.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[1239].end |
34343.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[1239].text |
61通過來71條請行政單位說明有沒有溝通假性財產增值的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1240].start |
34348.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[1240].end |
34365.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[1240].text |
71條就是有關一個是有關生理用品的部分第二個是有關我們召委在提到有關那個對於各種經費補助的定期檢討的機制的處理那有關在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1241].start |
34369.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[1241].end |
34388.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1241].text |
趙偉剛才所提到的部分剛才有跟趙偉先口頭做一個報告我們建議文字的部分在第三項應該是第三項做一個文字的處理有關在生理用品的女性生理用品補助的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1242].start |
34391.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[1242].end |
34412.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[1242].text |
我們還是跟委員請求一下是不是有可能先不納入到條文裡面來我們還是從現行的盡可能從現行的對於如果是經濟或者是財務上面負擔比較重的部分我們從現行有關食物銀行或者是食物的資源的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[1243].start |
34412.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[1243].end |
34432.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[1243].text |
我們來擴大的盡可能的擴大的來做給相關的協助是不是有這樣的可行性那跟我們做一個報告以上這個剛剛召委也都你知道只是希望你們可以接受因為真的金錢差也沒有很大那是不是就這個就保留好不好我們再討論一下你們的困難在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[1244].start |
34440.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1244].end |
34461.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[1244].text |
我們民眾黨團堅持說希望能夠把個人協助服務費用補助這個明確列為這個法定補助項目就是這個個人協助服務費用我們比較堅持 所以保留後再處理好 那一樣啦 兩個委員都希望可以保留各位有沒有其他件我們就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[1245].start |
34462.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[1245].end |
34467.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[1245].text |
好 謝謝 繼續處理保留條文第85條85 85的85沒有錯84喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[1246].start |
34488.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[1246].end |
34490.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1246].text |
這個我有簽附帶決議了所以ok這樣8485對844剛剛有講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1247].start |
34502.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1247].end |
34505.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[1247].text |
那個剛剛委員要求這個附帶決議我們有那個有收到那個84條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1248].start |
34519.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[1248].end |
34537.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[1248].text |
范雲委員提出來的是司法院負責盤點所屬法院之無障礙措施推動情形並在司法院人權與兒少保護及性別友善委員會納入身心障礙者代表之委員定期評估司法系統對於身心障礙者平等禁用司法權利之保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[1249].start |
34538.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[1249].end |
34559.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[1249].text |
及根據評估效結果進行改善二司法院應對全體法官及各級同仁就身心障礙者權利公約司法金融權保障合理調整局程序調整開設訓練及各種言行課程座談以提高對於身心障礙者需求之理解及敏感度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1250].start |
34559.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[1250].end |
34583.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[1250].text |
那針對招資委員部分的提出的附帶決議是司法院應向法官及所屬法院人員宣導法律輔助法第五條第一項第三款第四款有關為身心障礙者提供法律輔助之規定以保障身心障礙者在平等基礎上有效獲得司法保護對然後那個月勤委員也有提出一個附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1251].start |
34587.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[1251].end |
34604.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[1251].text |
對是司法院人權及兒照保護及性別友善委員會為落實憲法保障人民訴訟權及我國身心障礙者權利公約括號CRPD所結識之平等與合理調整原則應納入身心障礙者團體代表或具相關專業之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1252].start |
34608.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[1252].end |
34622.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[1252].text |
參與政策研議及與解這過程前向委員會因舊司法程序中影響身心障礙者金融制度性障礙進行通盤檢視並積極推動各級法院及相關司法機關之無障礙措施包括實體環境無障礙資訊與文件之多元可及可視 |
| transcript.whisperx[1253].start |
34623.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[1253].end |
34628.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[1253].text |
這是三個附帶決議的內容然後我們跟法務部討論過後為了落實這個對這個身心障礙者平等禁用司法權利還有的程序合理調整的保障我們有你一個我們同意的建議的文字那看看委員能不能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[1254].start |
34654.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[1254].end |
34678.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[1254].text |
採納這樣子什麼 提修84條修正84條修正動議在 現在在這個螢幕上是不是蛤是修正動議對啦 是在 不是在這邊嗎要給大家看啊這是現行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1255].start |
34685.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[1255].end |
34704.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[1255].text |
各位 你照這文字打上去看各位意見可以的話就大家簽文字麻煩打一下給大家看 如果各位委員覺得這樣可以就簽名不行就拒簽新的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1256].start |
34723.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[1256].end |
34737.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[1256].text |
那看一下看是不是OK啦還有一個附帶決議37案是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1257].start |
34753.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[1257].end |
34781.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[1257].text |
看紅字的部分是OK嗎 就是更好啊可以嗎來 各位 各位委員參閱一下螢幕上的84條這受歡迎在提的 所提的修正動議各位看能 |
| transcript.whisperx[1258].start |
34782.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[1258].end |
34803.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[1258].text |
能不能接受認同成功不必在乎領航者原本就是孤獨的好對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1259].start |
34813.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[1259].end |
34840.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[1259].text |
各位看一下如果各位沒有意見就請各位看要不要簽名有意見我們現在馬上提出來原本就是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1260].start |
34846.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[1260].end |
34871.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[1260].text |
可以吧84條這是郭大伙剛剛提出來的 支持支持 更好有任何問題 為他詢問我們可以馬上召開臨時庭好 謝謝好 各位如果針對84條的修正都沒有意見我們就照這樣修正動議通過111 |
| transcript.whisperx[1261].start |
34875.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[1261].end |
34879.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[1261].text |
一委員劉倩果等所有委員修正動議通過謝謝繼續處理保留條文85條來請行政單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1262].start |
34902.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[1262].end |
34922.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[1262].text |
跟主席跟委員報告85條剛剛某委員的支持維持原條文但是我們會法務部會提一個附帶決議就是我在這邊念一下那個法務部矯正署應落實執行矯正機關對身心障礙收容人合理調整參考指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[1263].start |
34924.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[1263].end |
34949.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[1263].text |
矯正機關身心障礙收容人處遇計畫及相關規定並滾動檢討處遇措施並加強矯正機關所屬人員接受相關訓練以確保身心障礙收容人之權益另有關輔具與支持措施之取得矯正機關依身心障礙者輔具費用補助辦法協助辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1264].start |
34951.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[1264].end |
34968.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[1264].text |
以上感謝委員們的支持那個支持然後就保留原條文這樣是謝謝好各位有沒有意見那85條我們就維持現行條文通過繼續處理保留條文第100條是加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[1265].start |
34977.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[1265].end |
34985.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[1265].text |
跟16條有關的第16條是跟第16條有關那第16條現在還在保留所以一樣保留還是先繼續保留來繼續審查繼續處理沒有還有兩條保留的還是要還是要講一下100條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1266].start |
35002.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[1266].end |
35030.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1266].text |
第一百條之一也是同樣跟這個行政院版的第十六條之三有關係那第十六條現在還在保留所以我們建議是不是先暫時一併保留好 一併保留繼續處理保留條文一百零七條第一百零七條因為是有關施行的日期那現在相關的條文還有在保留的部分我們建議是不是等到保留條文處理完再一併再處理施行日期以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1267].start |
35031.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[1267].end |
35049.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[1267].text |
好一樣保留謝謝好我們現在處理附帶決議計有40案那剛剛有幾案有宣讀了不過那個30條可以不用保留了有一個附帶決議了先跟趙偉講一下30條跟教育相關的好30條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1268].start |
35060.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[1268].end |
35064.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[1268].text |
對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1269].start |
35074.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[1269].end |
35101.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1269].text |
好30條我們就維持現行條文通過啦謝謝各位沒有意見啦好謝謝好我們現在要宣讀這個既有事實案的對不起既有事實一案的互代決議那剛剛有宣讀的如果時間允許就繼續就一樣啦就再宣讀如果時間來不及就就就剛剛有宣讀就那個那個那個那個排列的那個案號就跟各位講一下說有宣讀過有意見我們再提出來好謝謝請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1270].start |
35102.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[1270].end |
35130.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[1270].text |
第一案請衛生福利部會同原住民族委員會就我國原住民族身心障礙者之人口樣態生活條件文化需求及服務可進行定期辦理專案需求評估及調查研究並將族群別分析結果納入身心障礙相關政策規劃與資源配置之參考前接調查研究之規劃方向執行方式及後續政策運用請衛生福利部於三個月內提出書面規劃報告提案人委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1271].start |
35132.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[1271].end |
35154.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[1271].text |
你們的意思就是說拍完你們要先離開要求各主管機關於本法第二條通過後因依職權規劃推動與監督上述場所及設施之無障礙服務另要求本法中央主管機關應定期檢視上述場所及其他未列入之場域進行跨部會政策協調並提供身心障礙者申訴與表達意見之機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1272].start |
35155.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1272].end |
35179.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[1272].text |
提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 劉建國第三案 請主管機關於本法第十條修正通過後與訂定或修正生存法相關執法之成員 聆聘派程序時應明定任期 連任限制 公開聆選或輪替機制並兼顧不同 占別性別年齡及地區之代表性提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[1273].start |
35180.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1273].end |
35203.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[1273].text |
第四案中央目的事業主管機關於本法第十六條所定之合理調整指引應具備明確的程序性義務包含一申請與受理機制二互動式協商程序三評估標準與舉證責任四申訴與救濟五經費補助與獎勵提案人委員林月琴連續人委員王振旭劉建國第五案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1274].start |
35204.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[1274].end |
35223.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[1274].text |
要求衛生福利部英語本法第五十條修正通過後六個月內邀集各障礙類別團體代表共同檢討並修訂培訓課程與選用機制具體目標包括一分眾化模組化課程二優化媒合與留任策略提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭 劉建國第六案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1275].start |
35224.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1275].end |
35253.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[1275].text |
要求勞動部應於三個月內針對身心障礙者之職業訓練與就業轉嫌建立整合機制勞動部應開發符合不同障礙類別特別是中重度障礙者之職務再設計與職業訓練課程並與衛福部之小作所庇護工廠等體系借接提案人委員 劉建國聯署人委員 林月琴 陳昭芝第七案要求文化部應於三個月內會同衛生福利部及國家通訊傳播委員會針對電影電視節目及串流平台等 |
| transcript.whisperx[1276].start |
35255.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[1276].end |
35262.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[1276].text |
視聽著作提供一定比例之無障礙格式提案人 委員 劉建國連署人 委員 林月琴 陳昭芝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1277].start |
35263.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[1277].end |
35286.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[1277].text |
第八案 要求教育部應於三個月內強化各級學校轉型輔導機制教育部應會同勞動部及衛生福利部與學生畢業前一年及啟動跨部會轉型會議提案人委員劉建國 聯署人委員林月琴 陳昭芝第九案 要求衛生福利部應於三個月內邀集身心障礙者團體自立生活中心代表及專家學者組成檢討小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[1278].start |
35287.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[1278].end |
35303.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[1278].text |
針對下列事項進行研商並訂定於本法授權之執法或相關辦法中一 簡化申請與審查流程二 提升服務可敬性與可負擔性三 進行存國資源總盤點提案人 委員劉建國 連署人 委員林月晴 陳昭芝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1279].start |
35305.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1279].end |
35323.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[1279].text |
第十案 衛生福利部於本法修正通過後責成並協調相關事業目的主管機關地方政府及交通運輸相關業者積極推動下列事項並於一年內提出改善方案依強化公共交通運輸工具長站及附屬設施至無障礙設計與可用性 |
| transcript.whisperx[1280].start |
35325.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[1280].end |
35352.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[1280].text |
二 落實公共交通服務人員之教育訓練三 加強無障礙交通及身心障礙者權利之宣導四 建立跨部會監督與查核機制提案人委員王振旭 聯署人委員劉建國 林月琴第十一案 各主管機關與本條修正六個月內訂定合理調整之適用範圍流程並確認義務方與當事人之協調及申訴機制提案人委員林月琴 黃秀芳 陳盈 范雲 賴慧媛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1281].start |
35353.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[1281].end |
35372.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[1281].text |
第十二案 衛生福利部應於六個月內徵詢各不同障礙類別團體之意見就同儕支持員及個人助理的培訓依據不同障礙類別之需求進行更細緻化的課程設計及提出優化媒合人力之策略提案人委員 林月琴 陳盈 黃秀芳 范雲 賴慧媛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1282].start |
35372.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[1282].end |
35395.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[1282].text |
第十三案 司法院人權與兒少保護及性別友善委員會應納入身心障礙者團體代表或具相關專業之委員參與政策研議與決策過程前項委員會應就司法程序中影響身心障礙者禁用之制度性障礙進行通盤檢視並積極推動各級法院及相關司法機關之無障礙措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[1283].start |
35396.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[1283].end |
35418.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1283].text |
提案人委員林月琴 聯署人委員王振旭 劉建國第十四案 針對不同社會福利身份者直轄市縣市政府依據不同法規提供服務為確保資源有效整合身心障礙者如同時具有其他福利身份直轄市縣市主管機關應整合服務資源提供協助提案人委員林月琴 聯署人委員王振旭 劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[1284].start |
35419.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[1284].end |
35441.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[1284].text |
第15 請衛生福利部訂定二手輔具之清潔消毒及檢修指引二 中央主管機關及各目的事業主管機關訂定輔具服務政策應考量性別年齡生活型態及族群文化等多元需求提供個別化服務措施提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[1285].start |
35442.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[1285].end |
35468.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1285].text |
第十六案 請衛生福利部針對自立生活支持服務嚴定一致性服務原則服務項目及內容審查會議運作機制以及相關書表範本減少地方政府執行不一致之情形提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭 劉建國第十七案 建請衛生福利部向勞動部請議針對身心障礙者權益保障法與性別平等工作法在歧視認定之舉證責任與 |
| transcript.whisperx[1286].start |
35471.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[1286].end |
35489.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[1286].text |
違法罰還額度上之顯著落差與相關法律落實之細節於一個月內提出檢討報告與修法建議檢討方向應朝向引入舉證責任導致機制及針對歧視行為與罰則進行提案人委員 劉建國聯署人委員 林月琴 王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1287].start |
35491.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[1287].end |
35511.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[1287].text |
第十八案 衛生福利部應於本法修正通過後六個月內收集各縣市身心障礙福利資源指南含自力生活資源供醫療端出院準備使用衛生福利部應要求全國各級醫療院所與辦理出院準備服務時主動發放該指南與符合資格之病患或其家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[1288].start |
35512.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[1288].end |
35535.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[1288].text |
提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員林月琴 王正旭第十九案一 司法院應負責盤點所屬法院之無障礙措施推動情形並予以評估及促其改善並在司法院人權與兒少保護及性別友善委員會納入身心障礙者團體代表或專家之委員二 司法院及所屬法院人員應定期接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[1289].start |
35535.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1289].end |
35554.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[1289].text |
接受之人權教育訓練中應納入身心障礙者權利公約禁用司法保障合理調整及程序調整等在內之課程提案人委員劉建國連署人委員林月琴 王正旭第二十案法務部因於身心障礙者權益保障法修正通過後一年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[1290].start |
35555.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[1290].end |
35569.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[1290].text |
則由各級檢查機關就偵查程序中影響身心障礙者禁用之制度性障礙進行通盤檢視並積極推動各級檢查機關之無障礙措施提案人委員劉建國 聯署人委員林月琴 王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1291].start |
35570.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[1291].end |
35579.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[1291].text |
第21 法務部矯正署應落實執行矯正機關對身心障礙收容人合理調整參考指引矯正機關身心障礙收容人處於計畫及相關規定並滾動檢討處於措施並加強矯正機關所屬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1292].start |
35587.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[1292].end |
35601.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[1292].text |
直接受相關訓練令有關輔具與支持措施之取得矯正機關一身心障礙者輔具費用補助辦法協助辦理提案人 委員劉建國連署人 委員林月琴 王振旭 范雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[1293].start |
35602.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1293].end |
35628.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[1293].text |
第二十二案為充實服務量能並活化勞動力市場原提出附帶決議如下一建立跨部會人力媒合平台二結合中高齡在就業政策三落實彈性工時與非典型就業媒合四兩部會應於三個月內提出具體之個人助理人力倍增培訓與媒合計畫提案人委員劉建國連署人委員林月琴王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1294].start |
35628.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[1294].end |
35649.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[1294].text |
第23案 請直轄市縣市政府與援助民族地區提供本條第一項服務時應考量在地文化及盤點在地照顧資源並鼓勵各服務單位積極招募具援助民族與能力之服務人員提案人委員盧憲英 廖偉祥 連署人委員王育敏第24案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1295].start |
35650.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[1295].end |
35650.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[1295].text |
第25碗 |
| transcript.whisperx[1296].start |
35668.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[1296].end |
35688.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[1296].text |
各級教育主管機關應於提供輔具服務時涵蓋評估使用教學維護保養軟體構置及更新等服務提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭劉建國第26案為落實以交通設計原則規劃公共建築物公共設施與活動場所無障礙交通設施與運輸服務資訊通訊技術與系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[1297].start |
35692.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[1297].end |
35715.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[1297].text |
網路平臺及生活通信各級主管機關及目的事業主管機關得訂定通用設計推廣或獎勵計畫提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭劉建國第27案數位發展部應會同人事行政總處及行政院組織總處全面盤點行政院及所屬機關現行內部公務資訊系統之無障礙友善程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1298].start |
35716.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[1298].end |
35745.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[1298].text |
二 自一一六年度起各級政府機關進行資訊系統軟體採購或委外開發時應將通過無障礙檢測列為驗收之必要條件三 建請中央目的主管機關 數八部金管會經濟部優先針對具市場獨佔性或一定資本額以上之金融網路事業大型業者建立無障礙標章獎勵與輔導機制四 針對公眾使用頻率高之生活必須服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1299].start |
35746.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[1299].end |
35772.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[1299].text |
主管機關應設定具體期程要求業者於三年內完成無障礙化改善提案人委員 劉建國 連署人委員林月琴 盧憲一 王振旭 陳昭芝 郭育琴第28案 中央主管機關 中央目的事業主管機關地方主管機關得失財政狀況 編列經費補助發展復康巴士 長照交通接送車 通用計程車等 |
| transcript.whisperx[1300].start |
35773.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[1300].end |
35796.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[1300].text |
提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 劉建國第29案 請衛生福利部針對因燒燙傷 精神疾病及隨損傷尚未取得身心障礙證明 但確實有服務需求者嚴定相關服務計畫 提供適切服務提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員劉建國 王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1301].start |
35798.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[1301].end |
35817.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[1301].text |
第三十案以下決議建請相關單位於立法院第十一屆第五會期結束前提出相關報告或施行具體計畫一建請衛生福利部會同教育部勞動部及考選部針對經建府會確認之特教生於畢業後未能取得身心障礙證明者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1302].start |
35817.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[1302].end |
35832.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[1302].text |
建立跨部會資料轉接機制二 要求行政機關研議事辦基於需求之合理調整申請制度針對上述未能取得身障證明但有具體障礙需求者不應強制要求重新進行醫療鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1303].start |
35834.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[1303].end |
35851.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[1303].text |
三 衛生福利部應針對未領證身心障礙者之需求評估與服務提供提出具體可行之事辦計畫或政策延期報告提案人委員 劉建國連署人委員 林月琴 盧憲一 王振旭 陳昭芝 郭育琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[1304].start |
35851.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[1304].end |
35863.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1304].text |
第三十一案一衛生福利部因於本法修正公佈施行後建立定期法規檢視機制二要求中央主管機關因於本法修正公佈施行後兩年內針對新法執行狀況為及納入本次修法之遺珠議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1305].start |
35869.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[1305].end |
35898.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[1305].text |
進行通盤檢討以及CRPD國際審查委員會之結論性意見進行全面檢討與盤點三 主管機關英才滾動式調整原則針對檢討發現之執行摯愛或法規不足之處及時研擬修正草案並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出法規檢討與精進報告提案人委員劉建國 聯署人委員林月琴 盧憲一 王振旭陳昭芝 郭育琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[1306].start |
35898.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[1306].end |
35899.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[1306].text |
第32案第33案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1307].start |
35921.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[1307].end |
35943.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[1307].text |
衛生福利部因於本法修正後就醫療及護理機構之設施設備服務措施等進行檢討改善並將相關輔導或獎勵方式內容評估納入本條第二項授權辦法定制提案人委員陳昭姿 連署人委員王振旭盧仙依 第三十四案直轄市縣市主管機關對於原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[1308].start |
35944.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[1308].end |
35961.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[1308].text |
對於原住民身心障礙者之鑑定應考量其語言文化特性以其慣用語言進行必要時應由具原住民族文化敏感度之專業人員協助提案人委員盧憲一連署人委員王振旭陳昭姿第35案為確保身心障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1309].start |
35962.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[1309].end |
35981.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[1309].text |
遭受歧視情勢時能獲得保障請中央主管機關於本法第十六條修正施行後於本法施行細則明定歧視之定義提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭劉建國第三十六案請衛生福利部針對不同經費來源之輔具補助研議輔具服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1310].start |
35982.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[1310].end |
35989.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[1310].text |
及經費整合之可行性提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員劉建國 王振旭第37案剛已經宣讀過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1311].start |
35994.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[1311].end |
36022.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[1311].text |
第三十八案剛剛宣讀過第三十九案各級教育主管機關辦理身心障礙者教育及入學考試時應依其障礙類別程度學習及生活需要提供各項必須之專業人員個人協助服務無障礙格式教材資訊特殊教材與各種教育輔助器材與輔助科技無障礙校園環境無障礙交通與應考場所與方式點字讀物及相關教育資源提案人委員劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[1312].start |
36024.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[1312].end |
36050.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[1312].text |
連署人委員王振旭 林月晴 郭育晴 范雲第四十案中央主管機關應督請各直轄市縣市政府遇有非聽語障礙類別之身心障礙者提出同步聽打服務需求時經評估其障礙情形卻有使用同步聽打服務之必要以提供服務為原則提案人委員陳昭芝 陳金輝 廖偉祥 盧憲一 范雲第四十一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1313].start |
36051.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[1313].end |
36077.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[1313].text |
為推動公共建築物公共設施與活動場所無障礙交通設施與運輸服務資訊通訊技術與系統網路平臺及生活通信以通用設計原則規劃各級主管機關及目的事業主管機關於本法第52條之一修正施行後應緊速訂定通用設計推廣及實施計畫提案人委員廖偉祥 連署人委員林月琴 盧憲一宣讀完畢好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1314].start |
36081.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1314].end |
36106.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[1314].text |
我們先來處理這個互代決議那請問第一案 行政單位有意見跟召委報告我們建議文字稍微做一點小小的修正在第二段的第二行中間這個文化需求及服務可見性鬥點後面甄列並同第十一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1315].start |
36109.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[1315].end |
36116.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[1315].text |
然後定期辦理專案需求評估及服務需求調查針列兩個字服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1316].start |
36121.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[1316].end |
36138.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[1316].text |
好就這樣然後第三段的部分在最後請衛生福利部會同原住民族委員會甄列會同原住民族委員會於三個月建請能夠修正為六個月內提出書面規劃報告好那委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1317].start |
36147.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[1317].end |
36154.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[1317].text |
來 同意好 同意好 那我們負債局第一案就照這樣修正通過繼續處理第二案 請問行政單位有一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[1318].start |
36156.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[1318].end |
36180.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[1318].text |
第二我們建議稍微做一點點小小的文字修正第一段這個各項服務設施裡面露營區第二行到第三行露營區建議修正為露營場以符合法規規定然後後面休閒預熱遊戲場氣象資訊海水浴場建議刪除因為現在現行法律已經沒有海水浴場然後第三段 |
| transcript.whisperx[1319].start |
36182.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[1319].end |
36203.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[1319].text |
另要求本法中央主管機關因定期就直接跳到第二行進行跨部會政策協調等等以下接下去也就是刪除中間的檢視上述場所及其他未列入之場域這幾個字建議刪除以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1320].start |
36204.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1320].end |
36216.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[1320].text |
各委員針對現在的意見做以上文字的修正有意見沒有沒有好那我們就照這樣修正後通過來繼續處理第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1321].start |
36217.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[1321].end |
36239.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[1321].text |
第三案我們建議第二段著作一點文字修正在第三行的部分因明定任期連任限制之後擴大推薦然後取代原來的決議內容的公開遴選或輪替機制這幾個是我們建議刪除修正為擴大推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1322].start |
36240.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[1322].end |
36249.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[1322].text |
然後並兼顧不同障別性別之代表性年齡還有地區的部分我們建議把它刪除以上好 各位委員針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1323].start |
36251.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[1323].end |
36276.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[1323].text |
行政機關的建立我確認一下因為剛剛一直在講那個萬年身心障礙代表的這個擔心那先把輪替機制去除以後會不會造成真的有萬年身心代表的這個機會這個前面連任限制的部分那個文字是有保留的這是輪替機制哪家但是連任限制有保留那這個部分先前有跟林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1324].start |
36277.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1324].end |
36306.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[1324].text |
大概有報告過那月薪委員那邊是可以同意有跟委員報告過這點有確認好那同意好文字做修了嗎修了來兩位委員OK好同意好好王委員OK好OK好那我們就第三案就照這樣從文字這樣做修正後通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1325].start |
36307.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[1325].end |
36335.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[1325].text |
繼續處理第四案第四案的部分我們建議在這個第三點的部分著作文字修正那我整個宣讀一次評估標準與舉證責任冒號就明定就是明確定義何為的部分修正為明定然後在不成比例或過度負擔的後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[1326].start |
36336.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1326].end |
36362.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[1326].text |
針列之評估標準這樣文藝會比較明確另外在第五點最後一個字因我們建議改為德以上好 各位委員針對行政單位這樣建立相關文字修正有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1327].start |
36364.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[1327].end |
36383.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[1327].text |
好 沒有了沒有 好那我們就照這樣修正通過好 繼續處理第五案第五案我們建議也稍微做一點小的文字修正在第一段的第四行不僅止於身體我們建議把護理修正為照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1328].start |
36385.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1328].end |
36408.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[1328].text |
然後在這個第二段具體目標的部分第一點分眾化模組化課程冒號之後甄列除共通性課程外逗點然後另針對不同占別需求接到原來的附帶學習文字然後在第二行最後段這個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[1329].start |
36410.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[1329].end |
36432.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[1329].text |
後面我們建議把專屬培訓模組我們建議修正為在職訓練課程以上那這個部分也有跟林岳勤林委員大概有做過口頭的報告那林委員有同意做修正文資修正以上好這個行政單位建立文資的修正各位委員有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1330].start |
36434.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1330].end |
36457.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[1330].text |
沒有齁 這個剛剛那個第四案是修了蠻多的 那個德 因改為德那個是意義完全不一樣 這個所以要先離開的委員 請黨團助理通知他們一切後果自負 好 謝謝好 第五案各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照這樣修正後通過繼續處理第六案第六案遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1331].start |
36458.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[1331].end |
36485.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[1331].text |
好第六案遵照報告 各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 我們第六案就召喚通過繼續處理第七案第七案的部分因為我們在第52條這次修正已經把所謂的口述影像納入這個一定比例的相關的文字所以建議附帶決議的部分做文字的酌修也就是鑑於身心障礙者權益保障法第52條修正後面那一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1332].start |
36485.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[1332].end |
36506.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[1332].text |
有關於公共資訊的部分不是屬於我們這次修正的所謂影視作品的口述影像內容建議刪除然後就是為加速落實文化平權原要求文化部應於三個月內會同衛生福利部及國家通訊傳播委員會應針對電影電視節目及串流平台等 |
| transcript.whisperx[1333].start |
36508.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[1333].end |
36535.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[1333].text |
視聽著作提供一定比例之口述影像也是按照通過的母法文字做著修之製作補助及獎勵措施相關主管機關因於本法修正通過後6個月內提出具體補助辦法及事辦計劃並編列預算後面也是著修定期檢討並提升補助比例以鼓勵產業界投入無障礙內容製作以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1334].start |
36535.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[1334].end |
36550.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[1334].text |
也已經跟委員提案委員有做溝通跟說明謝謝好謝謝這個有跟我溝通過了本人沒有意見其他委員有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就照這樣修正後通過繼續處理第8案第8案是教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[1335].start |
36556.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1335].end |
36582.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[1335].text |
報告委員第八案的部分文字做著修就是在第二段的倒數第四個四個文字加上研議加研議兩個字就研議與學生畢業前一年即啟動跨部會那接下來的轉型會議建議改為服務機制就這兩個文字那希望這樣能夠具體來落實以上報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1336].start |
36585.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[1336].end |
36609.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[1336].text |
我提案同意文字修正各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就照這樣修正通過繼續處理第9案第9案有關召委的附帶決議的部分我們建議文字著作修正那而在從第三行開始原要求衛生服務部應於我們建議從三個月改成六個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[1337].start |
36611.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[1337].end |
36629.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[1337].text |
然後到第四行的後段針對下列事項進行延商那這個之後的有關這個訂定授權法規的文字我們建議是不是徵詢委員會是不是可以做一個刪除那底下三點的部分針對第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1338].start |
36630.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[1338].end |
36647.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[1338].text |
那就是我們就直接就是保留一個就是檢討自負負擔那前段的這個有關提升服務可經性與可負擔性跟後面的及服務時數上限這兩個部分我們建議是不是文字可以就先不納入以上三個月剛才會很 |
| transcript.whisperx[1339].start |
36661.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[1339].end |
36689.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[1339].text |
時間會很少嗎一定要到半年嗎這個事情基本上我覺得還是要加快對不對主要是針對資歷生活支持還有個人助理的申請流程繁瑣那評估指標僵化且時數確定不變不足所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1340].start |
36692.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[1340].end |
36718.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[1340].text |
跟照報告這個部分其實我們先前大概就已經在開始著手逐步的在處理我們先前有開過一兩次會其實看起來這個大概相關的團體跟相關的各類的團體跟參與者大概對於這個部分大概意見真的是蠻相當的多元所以處理上確實是有一點點複雜所以這個也冒昧跟召委請求是不是能夠給我們稍微多一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[1341].start |
36726.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[1341].end |
36733.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[1341].text |
好 各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照這樣修正通過 七七除以第十案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1342].start |
36739.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[1342].end |
36767.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[1342].text |
第十案的部分我們建議文字做一點調整主要是在第二段原此建請交通部會同衛生福利部原來中間身為身心障礙者權益保障法中央主管機關之這個部分我們建議文字就先刪除就是交通部會同衛生福利部 |
| transcript.whisperx[1343].start |
36768.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[1343].end |
36795.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[1343].text |
於本法修正通過後折承並三個字我們建議刪除就是協調然後後面相關目的世界主管機關這幾個是刪除就是協調地方政府及交通運輸相關業者積極推動下列相關事項然後在這個所有的事項裡面的第四點那就是建立監督與查核機制跨部會三個字我們建議是不是就不納入以上建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1344].start |
36796.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[1344].end |
36798.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[1344].text |
交通部有問題嗎交通部可以配合辦理嗎好沒問題好謝謝那文字就照剛剛的宣讀來做修正後通過繼續處理第11案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1345].start |
36821.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[1345].end |
36849.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[1345].text |
第十六條的 對不起 第十一案的部分我們建議這個部分是不是可以保留因為第十六條的部分現在在條文內已經有明訂就是一年之內要訂執印兩年之內要去做調適那這個部分的話會跟現在在討論中的條文內容可能會有這個匹配不起來的地方所以我們建議這個案子可能我們建議是不是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[1346].start |
36851.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[1346].end |
36870.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[1346].text |
優先是不是在後面保留條文討論定案之後再來決定這個附帶決議的內容因為第16條現在這個合理調整的部分條文還沒定案那合理調整裡面我們現在行政院版的條文它有一個在法律通過後一年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[1347].start |
36871.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[1347].end |
36899.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1347].text |
目的事業主管機關要訂定相關的指引那指引通過後兩年內要來做相關的制度調整那這邊的話因為只有六個月內要去訂合理調整適用的範圍流程會跟條文會有點配合不起來好那我們就針對第四案保留到時候待協商十六條的時候再予以處理好謝謝謝謝老委各位委員沒有意見啦好謝謝那就保留通過繼續處理第十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1348].start |
36901.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[1348].end |
36929.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[1348].text |
第12案我們建議著作文字修正在第二行的後面依據不同障礙類別我們建議就是把依據改成考量不同障礙類別的需求那做兩個兩個字做文字的修正以上好各位有沒有意見沒有那我們就照這樣文字修正後通過繼續處理第13案沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1349].start |
36931.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[1349].end |
36958.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[1349].text |
遵照辦理 遵照辦理好各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有讓我們就照案通過繼續處理第14案第14案遵照辦理好各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過第15案遵照辦理各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有讓我們就照案通過第16案遵照辦理各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過第17案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1350].start |
36960.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1350].end |
36982.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[1350].text |
第十七案的部分我們跟召委報告我們建議這個在第四行開始的部分做一個文字修正我們建議是不是可以從一個月修正為三個月因為是總體要提出檢討報告與修法建議所以後面以下有關檢討方向等等後面的文字我們建議是不是可以刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[1351].start |
36990.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[1351].end |
37019.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[1351].text |
因為舉證責任導致的部分在第16條的部分其實現在舉證責任的部分其實現在在先前討論的時候已經確定會納入那歧視行為的罰則的部分其實現在歧視的部分也是會納入現在在第16條討論比較有爭議的部分是在這個合理調整的處罰的部分那這兩個文字其實不納入其實並不會有相關的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[1352].start |
37023.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[1352].end |
37025.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[1352].text |
沒有 那天那華國部汪參有講 這舉證責任的導致 |
| transcript.whisperx[1353].start |
37030.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[1353].end |
37050.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[1353].text |
舉證責任導致的這個在先前討論的時候我們這個建議的版本的調整的部分我們會甄列一項剛才也已經有拿出來有跟委員報告但是因為前後的部分其他還有一些爭議的部分所以這個第十調查現在還保留但是舉證責任轉換的部分這個部分我們已經有建議文字我們同意一定程度我們可以把它拿進來這個部分已經可以操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1354].start |
37052.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1354].end |
37080.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[1354].text |
不然就這樣先保留嘛好不好16條是協商的時候再一併討論是可以嗎好謝謝謝謝召委好各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們本案就保留來繼續處理第18案來各位請進機關表示意見留意第18案這個在出是有關出院準備的部分那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1355].start |
37092.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[1355].end |
37092.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[1355].text |
蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[1356].start |
37097.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[1356].end |
37120.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[1356].text |
第18案我們建議委員這邊所提到的從第三行開始有關三個月內的話我們建議是不是給我們可以允許我們這個放寬到六個月那這個第一段後面的文字那我們稍微這個調整一下就是收集各縣市身心障礙福利資源指南 |
| transcript.whisperx[1357].start |
37121.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1357].end |
37140.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[1357].text |
含自立生活資源來供醫療端出院準備使用那我們把文字稍微做一個稍微做一個整理那這樣會這個在未來在運用的時候會更明確是不是可以做這樣的一個調整好各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1358].start |
37142.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[1358].end |
37169.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[1358].text |
沒有啦 我們文字就這樣調整後通過那個新版本來就已經按照這個調整過了又給委員看過 有簽過那應該是遵照辦理啦因為這個有調整過 又給委員看過我們剛才手上拿到 看到用舊版的 抱歉好 那我們就依照新版的第18案來通過對不對我簽啦 我有簽好 國委沒有意見我們就照這樣通過繼續處理第19案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1359].start |
37177.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[1359].end |
37186.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[1359].text |
這個我們遵照辦理好 各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就照案通過繼續處理繼續處理第20案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1360].start |
37192.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1360].end |
37222.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[1360].text |
那感謝委員們剛剛通過我們修正動議提出的條文那因為那個委員關切的重點已經寫在完整的寫在修正後的條文而且條文本身具有法律的拘束力那基於法制清楚性跟後續執行的一致性考量那也感謝剛剛請求召委同意我們那個提案人召委我們建議由條文本身作為落實依據那不要再提附帶決議避免重複規範然後反而產生適用的疑義 |
| transcript.whisperx[1361].start |
37222.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[1361].end |
37245.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[1361].text |
那以上感謝好第二十三我們就不予處理就不用再處理了是不是對啊用條文就好我們那個附帶決議就不要處理了好謝謝各位我們二十三就不予處理了各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1362].start |
37248.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[1362].end |
37274.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1362].text |
是附帶決議的部分不予處理嗎對對對 是附帶 第二十案不予處理是因為84條剛剛有修正好那我們就不予處理通過繼續處理第二十一案分照辦理好 各位委員有沒有其他猶豫啦 抱歉沒有那我們就照案通過第二十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1363].start |
37287.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[1363].end |
37307.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[1363].text |
第二十二案我們建議這個第一點的部分那個建立跨部會人力我們建議改成溝通協調平台從媒合平台修正為溝通媒合平台然後第四點這個三個月我們也是請召委容許我們可以能夠放寬為六個月以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1364].start |
37312.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[1364].end |
37339.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[1364].text |
好好各位委員有異議沒有那我們就照文字上修正後通過繼續處理第23案遵照辦理好各位委員有異議沒有就照案通過繼續處理第24案遵照辦理各位委員有異議沒有異議我們就照案通過第25案遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1365].start |
37340.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[1365].end |
37350.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[1365].text |
好 各位委員有異議 沒有我們就照案通過繼續處理第26案 第26案遵照辦理好 各位委員有異議沒有異議我們就照案通過 第27案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1366].start |
37353.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[1366].end |
37377.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[1366].text |
主席好 還有各位委員好 那抒發部說明一下 剛才有跟昭緯說明還有報告一下 那我這邊再報告一下我們剛剛調整的文字 首先是第一條 抒發部應會同人事行政總署及行政院主計總署 那我們這邊是建議把它調整更寬廣 我們把它調整為主管機關全面盤點行政院及所屬縣刑 那我們把它調整為有善障礙者程度 那針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1367].start |
37378.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[1367].end |
37394.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[1367].text |
既有未達無障礙標準原本是政府內部的單位內部系統那我們把它更具體的調整為拆勤與公文行政系統應訂定改善計畫然後分階段的進行更新以太換然後編列預算四個字建議刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[1368].start |
37395.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[1368].end |
37414.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[1368].text |
那第二條的部分呢因為現行的採購契約的範本其實已經很完整的納入了那各個機關也都有把它納入做整個驗收那我們是建議整條可以不用納入那第三條的話呢是直接接受那第四條的話這邊也稍微說明一下那前面的話文字都概括承受沒有問題那主管機關應設定具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[1369].start |
37416.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[1369].end |
37441.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[1369].text |
騎乘這個部分因為涉及一些跨國的軟體可能比較難要求所以我們會跟過往一樣持續的去要求業者持續精進無障礙改善所以要求三年內完成這六個字調整為持續精進無障礙化改善然後確保兩字我們建議可以調整為提供障礙者及長者有善操作這四個字那以上跟各位報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1370].start |
37443.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[1370].end |
37465.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[1370].text |
好各位委員文字照正修正有意義沒有那我們就修正後通過繼續出第28案第28案遵照辦理好各位委員有意義沒有我們就照案通過第29案遵照辦理好各位委員有意義沒有我們就照案通過第30案遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1371].start |
37465.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[1371].end |
37492.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[1371].text |
好各位委員有異議沒有我們就照案通過第31案我們建議因為這個在第也跟第16條有一點關聯那而在第二段的第二點的部分有關歧視法則第二行的歧視法則第三行的舉證責任導致那目前大概在討論上方向大概都是都已經確定可以放到條文內 |
| transcript.whisperx[1372].start |
37493.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[1372].end |
37514.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[1372].text |
那我們建議這兩段的文字可以刪除那其他我們都會遵照辦理好各位委員針對文字修正有異議沒有好那我們就照修正後通過繼續處理第32案遵照辦理好各位委員有異議沒有我們就照案通過繼續處理第33案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1373].start |
37523.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[1373].end |
37551.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[1373].text |
第三十三案遵照辦理好各位委員有異沒有我們就照案通過繼續處理第三十四案第三十四案遵照辦理好各位委員有異沒有我們就照案通過第三十五案遵照辦理各位委員有異沒有我們就照案通過第三十六案遵照辦理各位委員有異沒有我們就照案通過第三十七案遵照辦理好各位委員有異沒有我們就照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1374].start |
37552.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[1374].end |
37574.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1374].text |
繼續處理第38案第38案遵照辦理各位委員有異議沒有我們就照樣通過第39案遵照辦理各位委員有異議沒有那我們就照樣通過39過了各位對不起繼續處理第40案遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1375].start |
37581.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[1375].end |
37599.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[1375].text |
好 各位委員有異議沒有就照案通過繼續處理第41案 遵照辦理好 各位委員有異議沒有我們就照案通過好 那這邊補充報告齁這個剛剛處理我們深圳華第22條修正東翼那有一個對照條文第22條第二項前項身心 |
| transcript.whisperx[1376].start |
37604.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[1376].end |
37614.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[1376].text |
又多一個生那個生字要拿掉就是第二項的第五個字要拿掉前項身心障礙者他多一個生剛剛大家眼睛都有問題好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1377].start |
37620.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[1377].end |
37645.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[1377].text |
好現在做以下決議第一身心障礙者權利保障法不問條文修正草案等37案審查完略那並案凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那議會討論本案時由劉昭吉委員建國補充說明那請問本案是我交由黨團協商要啦好要交黨團協商好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1378].start |
37646.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[1378].end |
37669.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[1378].text |
那本法案條次條文中援引條次及法制用語調整授權議事人員整理那相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那個提供喔 拜託喔 蘇法院還有那個法務部那本日有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報好 本日會議到此結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[1379].start |
37670.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[1379].end |
37672.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[1379].text |
現在散會 謝謝大家 感謝各位 |