| IVOD_ID |
17216 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17216 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-21T08:31:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-21T17:38:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
09:06:48 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856db8011010454488bc78a9f27de259fbe692bdb9a1e4797729392c95df9aaa845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查
(一) 行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(三) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
(四) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(五) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(九) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(十) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十一) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十二) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十三) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。
(十四) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。
(十五) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(十六) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
(十七) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(十八) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十九) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二十) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二十一) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二十二) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)
二、審查
(一) 委員張雅琳等23人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(三) 委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
【第二（一）案，如經復議則不予審查；第二（二）及（三）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【逐條討論】【不詢答】
【115年1月21日及115年1月22日，二天一次會】） |
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完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:12 - 17:38:00 |
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SPEAKER_08 |
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SPEAKER_33 |
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SPEAKER_33 |
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32820.72471875 |
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SPEAKER_33 |
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32822.00721875 |
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SPEAKER_33 |
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32828.36909375 |
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SPEAKER_33 |
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32828.82471875 |
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32839.28721875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1792.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1805.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會 出席委員人數6人 已駐法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 謝謝 現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議議事錄時間115年1月19日星期一9時2分至14時4分地點群憲樓801會議室出席委員 陳委員 昭芝等14人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1817.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1835.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
列席委員羅委員廷委等4人列席官員衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項1審查要事法部分條文修正草案等12案本日會議討論事項綜合詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1838.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1860.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
經委員羅廷偉 王振旭及劉建國說明提案指去由衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀說明及回應委員提案後委員陳昭芝等14人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部政務次長及經濟部產業發展署副署長陳國軒及各相關主管等即席答覆委員楊耀吉 盧憲宜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1861.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1876.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
修正動議議案決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三要施法部分條文修正草案等十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1876.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1894.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
審查完略內容如審查結果並按你據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由劉兆吉委員建國補充說明不需交黨團協商四本法案法制用於調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1896.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1923.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
審查結果 照行政院提案通過第27條之二 第48條之二 第96條之一 第106條第27條之三 照行政院提案及委員陳昭芝 王育敏及劉建國等三人修正動議修正通過第80條及第94條 照委員徐欣穎等20人提案通過維持現行條文第55條 第96條之一修正立法說明第二點通過附帶決議二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1925.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1948.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
二 審查要害救濟法第三條及第28條條文修正草案等10案修正動議議案決議一 說明及詢答完畢二 要害救濟法第三條及第28條條文修正草案等10案審查完略內容如審查結果並按你具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由劉兆吉委員建國補充說明不需交黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1949.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1973.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
三本法案法制用於調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供審查結果照行政院提案通過第三條第28條宣讀完畢好謝謝那請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有謝謝那我們就議事錄確定本陸會議審為審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1976.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2001.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
及繼續審查身心障礙者權利保障法部門條文修正查案等37案那現在來介紹在場委員及列席官員以及本次的會議手語翻譯員及同步聽打員那我們第一位是林月琴委員再來是廖偉祥、張維你怎麼沒打招呼啊好 再來是王振旭委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2006.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2025.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
出席的官員是我們衛生福利部政務次長呂健德社交組署長周道軍法規會參事陳信成我們心理健康師師長陳柏熙護理及健康照護師副師長陳清梅保護服務師專門委員張靖倫醫事師檢驗急診呂電池 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2034.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2059.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
然後長期照顧師科長徐于廷好謝謝司法院少年級家事廳法官郭耀明謝謝全區部法規師專務委員蕭立榮還有我們考選部重規師專務委員黃于儒謝謝科長陳榮坤謝謝行政院主計總署公務預算處專務委員陳舒平 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2063.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2073.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
國事普查處專門委員林玉樹 謝謝行政院人事行政總處重規處專門委員許孟志 謝謝組織人力處的專門委員紀佳玲 謝謝培訓改動處科長谷新橋好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2091.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2105.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
內政部國土管理署駐載發展組專門委員連偉耀國土管理署建築管理組科長陳雅芳警政署國際組副組長林志俊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2109.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2135.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
警政署刑事警察局科長王嘉華交通部公共運輸及檢理師副市長廖錦志數位發展部數位政府司科長林菊慧勞動部勞動力發展署副署長陳思昌醫藥事發展署身心障礙者及特定對象就業組副署長王雅芬 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2138.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2146.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
勞動條件及就業評定師副市長王金榮統計處專門委員鄭雅慧職業安全衛生署檢任計政葉佩潔經濟部經濟法治師專門委員林雨欣重規師科長林美鳳產業技術師科長陳俊維標準檢驗局檢任計政鄭乃源 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2166.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2195.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
商業發展署科長吳仁鈞教育部學生事務及特殊教育師專務委員許文珍還有文化部重規師專務委員廖妮妮仁文集出版師科長卓文鈞影視及流行音樂產業局主任秘書楊秀玉華國部參事汪蘭君小政署副處長劉玲玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2198.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2224.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
檢察司主任檢察官黃嘉妮金融監督管理委員會銀行局專門委員張曉平謝謝證券期貨局專門委員羅嘉怡謝謝保險局副組長許文君謝謝國家通訊傳播委員會專門委員李文秀謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2227.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2254.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
運動部適應運動師副市長蔡中益謝謝設施規劃師副市長潘婉欣謝謝還有原住民組委員會社會福利處副處長洪瑩謝謝財政部副稅署副署長李志忠謝謝公務署檢任機和杜嘉文謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2256.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2284.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
還有監察院國家人權委員會秘書陳坤泰 謝謝專門委員林清玄 謝謝好 我們首議員有李振輝先生邱香菱小姐張慈珊小姐還有鍾雅慧小姐 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2286.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2309.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那天達園有游漁益先生 換無倫小姐 謝怡萱小姐葉惠慈小姐 陳靜佳先生黃之琳小姐 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2321.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2343.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 我們先做一下說明 第一為了使聽語上朋友們更了解本日議案的審查過程那本次會有手語翻譯員畫面的轉播那第二本委員會先前已就身心障礙者權利保障法部門條件修正草案等三次案進行主條審查至第十條那經決議尚未審查完畢 令則其繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2346.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2359.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那本次會議新增有三個提案將於上述三十案並案自第十條之一以下條文接續進行審查那本次在交付之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2363.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2389.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
目前是吳委員登記要發言了好那有關於本次會議各項書面資料經列入紀錄刊登公報現在要來繼續審查及審查身心障礙者權利保障法部分條文形容長安等三期案其中院會新增交互的三個提案版本那提案條文內容均已放入條文的對照表一併審查一例就不再宣讀列入紀錄那請問委員有無異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2391.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2403.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝那我們就從院版第十條之一繼續審查以行政院提案條次為準進行討論那每條條文先請行政單位做說明接著再請委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2408.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2426.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
針對行政院版草案第10條之一那以及各委員版本各委員的提案版本那大多主要的結構與行政院版本相同那不同的處所不同的地方有包括范雲委員武力華委員的版本有提到對於身心障礙者如果對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2427.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2449.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
这个主管机关所揭示的有关无障碍的事项有意见的时候可以向目的世界主管机关主张被咨询的权利那就这一点的话我们是建议由于这个部分实务上个别民众的不管是不是身障他有要求的时候而一般这一类如果有提出意见的话大概都是统一由主管机关去参采民众的意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2449.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2474.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
決定是否能夠納入後續的不管是法規或者是預算等等相關去參裁但是個別諮詢的部分在實務上諮詢實務上做個別諮詢確實有相關執行上的困難我們建議是不是可以不要納入那第二個是有關王玉明委員萬美玲委員在提案中有提到在現在的國八會的公共政策網路參與平台上 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2474.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2492.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
的認為平台的複製門檻過高應該要另外去設置相關的提議的門檻那我們是建我們是建議這個有關身心障礙的相關的議題那不管是提案人或者是這個能夠通過決議的門檻那在同樣的一個這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2495.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2508.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
民眾提供意見的平台上面我們建議是能夠都維持同樣的一個原則來做相關的處理所以總結我們建議是不是是否能夠照行政院的版本來通過 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2509.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2527.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
另外 對不起修正動議的部分范雲委員在文字的部分有在希望在第一款然後有建議這個文字的部分能夠甄列要參照身心障礙者權利公約的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2528.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2552.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
另外也有甄列第二項那國家人權委員會的部分要落實身心障礙者權利公約的獨立監督那這兩個部分的話因為現行都在組織法個別的組織法裡面都已經或者是身心障礙者權利公約有施行法裡面都已經有相關明文的規範那我們建議這邊可以不用做重複的甄定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2554.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2579.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我這邊委員會跟各位做一個補充說明這個第十條之一有委員林月琴換雲所提的修正動議第十四案那剛剛又有提有人提修正動議現在委員會在在爭議中那是不是等一下花下去之後再請行政機關表示意見那個中間還是可以討論那有誰要先表示意見委員好林月琴再來再換雲好ok |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2580.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2604.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 不好意思我的修正東西大家可能手上還沒拿到那我當然是希望能夠特別加入兒少的參與權來回應國家人權委員會的建議跟目的事業主管機關應該訂定一些指引以利於身心障礙者有意義的參與並應著重在身心障礙兒少參與的一個賠利 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2606.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2625.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以呢希望能夠提供資訊的可信心事實上是本來就是CRPD的一個最基本精神表育權的自由跟資訊的禁用性那當然也要從兒童的表育權談身障朋友的表育權所以不能去忽略掉我們的兒少像舉例來說提供視障 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2626.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2654.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
視覺障礙者點字或者是可讀報的一個文件等還有提供聽覺障礙者字幕跟或手語等提供心智障礙者那個易讀資訊所以我們希望各目的事業主管機關應訂定相關指引跟配套措施確保身心障礙者兒童及少年身心障礙者有參與相關政策跟法規的嚴厲的集會所以我的增訂的是這是第二項以上 謝謝好 再請范瑀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2657.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2684.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
大家好 因為我的修正動議好像上次有發但是今天有一些委員到場沒有拿到所以他會請議事委員是不是可以補發一下有 現在在加印中好 那我的部分主要是有兩個部分爭議這個十條之一第一個部分是在機關學校事業機構法人或團體於訂定影響身心障礙者權益之政策法規或規章時 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2685.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2713.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
原本是就是寫應提供身心障礙者可禁用之資訊及表示意見之機會我的部分在中間加一句話應參照身心障礙者權利公約一致就是參照然後一致然後後面也多了一小段話國家人權委員會為落實身心障礙者權益公約之獨立監督單位且應保障身心障礙者及團體充分參與監督過 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2716.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2744.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
主要是配合我在第16条也是有一个如果身心障碍者没有获得合理调整遭受损害的时候他能够向国家人权委员会提出申诉这一条就希望能够有一个正式的申诉机关让他成为国家人权委员会名定为能够接受申诉因为我觉得我们不管是反歧视法有一点点 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2745.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2773.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
遥遥无期不知道什么时候出来那我们在定这个部分的时候如果有一个独立的申诉监管机关的话可能会让大家觉得放心很多那另外一个部分就是相关的机构我们是规范他应该提供可禁用之资讯跟表示意见的机会可是应该要把身心障碍者权利公约这边只是讲参照至少大家精神上会比较清楚一点是要参照以上说明谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2775.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2796.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 謝謝還有其他委員要表示意見嗎那行政機關有收到另外這個林蔚琴委員所提的修正動物第四條之一那我們今天國家人權委員會的代表是陳秘書也有列席如果要表示意見請請遞麥克風給他再舉個手 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2808.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2810.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個把人群圍排在這麼後面實在有點來請 有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2817.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2845.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席各位好有關林院勤委員建議的醫護教育委員會這邊的意見也是建議目的事業主管機關可以依照CRPD第4條33條還有第7號一般信業意見定義相關指引來著重對生長的小財運的賠利所以有關委員的建議我們這邊是敬表支持那另外剛才關於那個參照CRPD的公約的意旨這個部分也是符合人權委這邊一再強調就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2845.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2873.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
相關公約的議題應該落實在條文當中那兒少監督機制的部分這邊沒有特別的意見以上好 謝謝林專委的這個說明行政機關請回應 謝謝針對范園委員修正動議的部分那有關在第四條之一是不是需要增列應參照身心障礙者權利公約的部分那由於在上一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2874.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2901.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
審查會議的時候已經在本法的第一條已經有決議有甄列文字就是為維護身心障礙者與身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權益然後保障其相關各項的參與的機會所以大概在終止法案的終止的部分已經把CRPD的部分列進去我們建議第一項的部分是不是文字上就可以不用再做第二次的甄列 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2902.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2921.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那范委員第二項的部分是不是針對國家人權委員會的部分可以獨立對於這個落實去做相關的部分那我們去查閱了一下國家人權委員會的組織條例其實在國家人權委員會的組織的規定裡面這已經是它的組織的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2921.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2942.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那我們是建議這個部分既然已經有在法律裡面相關法律已經有明文的規定是不是還需要在生權法裡面單獨就身心障礙者把這個我們國家人權委員會的工作再去寫一次我們覺得好像似乎是有一些跌床下屋的地方似乎可以不用再重複的來做續寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2943.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2967.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那針對林月琴委員的修正動議的部分有關申列第二項文字針對身心障礙者兒童及少年身心障礙者相關是不是要去訂立指引的部分那這個部分的話我們這個部分行政實務上我們一定會來做相關的操作那只是我們建議文字的部分是不是我們如果委員這邊容許的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2968.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2989.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
是不是我們建議有沒有可能是用未來是用負債決議的方式那我們把負債決議的文字我們這邊研擬過之後我們再來給委員過目以上建議 謝謝好 可以嗎來 請說我不知道就是說今天本來公約就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2991.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3010.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
今天剛才周所長講的是CRPD可是今天這邊我要談的事實上是CRC本來CRC你就要去落實在很多法條裡面而且這邊還是牽扯到耳哨耳哨還是有身心障礙的所以我認為應該要在這邊能夠而且昨天我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3011.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3033.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
人權 國家人權委員會也發了這個所以我們希望說因為你第十條之一的第一項講的事實上是政府各個單位都應該要讓他們表示意見而且提供可禁用的資訊可是我覺得在我為什麼要甄列第二項事實上是更明確的是希望政府能夠去做到有時候過去我們常常看就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3034 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3059.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對 你邀他們來開會可是很多配套事實上是不足的所以才會想說在這邊能夠講清楚說明白我覺得各目的世界主管機關應該訂定相關的指引跟配套措施把它談清楚來確保我們的身心障礙者還有兒少身心障礙者參與相關政策跟法規的研擬的機會否則的話你的配套措施做不足的話根本上還是沒有辦法參與這也是過去我們自己在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3060.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3089.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所謂行政院的兒少推動小組或者是衛福部的兒少委員會同樣也有這樣子的一個問題所在常常沒有辦法提供他們相關的一些措施如果今天我要一個身障的一個兒少的話進入到這會場當中那你們很多東西也沒有配套提供給他們所以我們就希望說在這邊可謂明定清途就像我剛剛舉例的就是說提供視覺障礙者的點子可讀報的文件等如果他參與會議你必須要提供這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3089.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3107.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
否則的話他怎麼能夠去做公共參與這也是CRC很重要的精神要符合社會參與那再來就是像提供聽覺障礙者字幕或手語像今天為什麼我們的召委會請我們聽打跟我們的手語來做翻譯來讓我們今天在 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3107.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3127.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
常看直播的人可以看得非常的清楚了解到我們今天表達的意識是什麼還有提供心智障礙者易讀的資訊這都是CRC很重要的可是剛剛署長講的事實上是CRPD可是我們講的是CRC你這邊還是要去配合CRC的一個精神所在以上好 繼續請范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3130.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3141.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那個署長的意思是說好像在其他地方有寫了但是我覺得我們這邊忽略了一個處境不利者他怎麼可能還去看一下國家人權委員會的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3146.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3165.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因為他看這整個法的時候他只會知道說在這裡面好像沒有個地方他可以去申訴那如果寫在這裡的話就很明確的就是大家如果在這裡相關的主管機關譬如說他去地方政府就是申訴無門的時候至少有個國家人權委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3166.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3184.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
能夠獨立去監管那我覺得在這邊寫出來而且國家人權委員會本身是OK的 是接受的因為他的確是本來就可以來就是監督我們地方政府的各個機關所以我還是希望說在這裡能夠寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3185.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3207.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
另外就是關於就是機關學校事業機關因為這條我們本來是在講說各機關訂令到影響身心障礙者權益之政策法規或規章時應提供身心障礙者可信用之資訊及表示意見之機會那如果沒有加那句話應參照身心障礙者權利公約一旨的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3207.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3235.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那他會以為讀法條會讀起來以為說我只要給你就是相關的資訊讓你表達意見的機會事情就結束了那他要不改的時候還是不改那這樣子其實就忽略了他表達意見的機會跟你應該怎麼做的時候本來就應該參照身心障礙者權利公約啊那否則是參照什麼意見表達完都不修正就OK了嗎所以我覺得這句話有沒有放還是差異蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3237.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3250.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那這樣子其實衛福部以後就可以少很多事他就主動應該要參照了以上說明好謝謝那還有其他委員如果沒有請行政單位來同意回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3252.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3268.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
針對兩位委員的修正動議的部分我們只是單純是從法制作業的角度因為在本法的第一條就開宗明義就是需要依照身心障礙者權利公約的宗旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3269.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3284.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以在這部法律裡面每一個條文行政部門在操作在運用甚至包括如果第二項要申列我們人權委員會的話這個部分任何一個機關都一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3285.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3304.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
都要依照CRPD的精神那我們只是覺得現有在法律第一條裡面已經開宗明義有規定那是不是在這個第十條之一還需要重續在法制作業的角度需不需要重新寫我們建議似乎是可以在文字上可以做一些考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3305.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3316.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那第二項的部分是不是要將這個對於身心障礙者的兒少的部分能夠納進來或者是這個人權委員會的部分是不是要能夠納進來我們的建議是 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3320.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3336.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
因為目前我們現在已經訂定了針對身心障礙者來會議的相關的指引也因為是有這樣的指引所以如同委員所提到今天的會議我們會提供不管視障聽障者這些相關的一些禁用的一些措施那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3338.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3367.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我们会建议的是说因为我们现在已经在做这样的事情所以呢是不是针对儿少的部分需要单独去做额外的规定这个部分行政部门本来在施政的时候我们一定会来操作我们一定会来操作所以我们才会建议说针对这个部分的话因为他是这个所有身心障碍者里面其中一个某一个某一部分的族群那如果针对这个部分有特别的需求我们会建议是不是有可能透过 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3368.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3390.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
一個附帶決議的方式給行政部門更明確的要求我們製作這樣子的建議那針對這個最後有關是不是要在第二項去針對這個國家人權委員會的部分那我們剛才也說明了主要是因為現行的法律已經是名列為國家人權委員會的執掌 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3392.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3411.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那當然在法制上的從法制上的作業來講我們覺得這個部分似乎不一定需要在生權法再去做額外的規範那當然最後不管最後這個如果要能夠讓民眾便利使用那當然我們最後我們還是會尊重委員會最後討論的結果以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3413.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3439.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好 林月琴委員完之後再換王振旭委員再換范雲委員 抱歉好 所長如果剛剛這樣講我先澄清第一個我在講不是只有CRPD還有CRC那我剛剛講的第二我列的這個第二項也不是只有兒少還有事實上是身心障礙者我覺得身心障礙者跟兒少身心障礙者參與相關的政策跟相關會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3441.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3466.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
他要有機會那要有機會是你要真的讓他能夠有你們提供的相關質疑那當然剛剛講說你們都有做第一個既然有做那列法列在法條那有什麼難事可是這邊講的是衛福部可是我這邊寫的事實上是目的事業主管各目的事業主管所以不是只有衛福部要做如果其他的兼交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3467.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3493.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
部門如果邀請的話一樣也要去符合這樣的一個精神所在希望提供的所謂的資料也好就像我剛剛提一直在重複提的就是說你今天世界障礙者他要有點知他才知道這個到底談的是什麼東西所以我還是很堅持否則如果這樣的話是不是先行保留以上好再請王智迅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3494.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3515.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好 謝謝主席我想一群委員所提出修正動議的確層次上是比較清楚而且它的完整性也是把原來行政院版的部分做了加強補強所以我覺得修正動議的一群委員的版本應該是相對適合在10條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3516.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3544.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那關於這個另外有關到底身心障礙者權利公約它是整部的貫穿那在此條之一要不要再把它放到條文裡面我個人也是覺得如果可以從立法說明或是在附帶決議裡面去補強的話也是一種方式那我也贊成如果這一條目前沒有辦法有很好的共識的話那是不是先保留我們再做其他處理以上好 再請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3547.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3560.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那看起來那個衛福部是不反對但是就是說要不要放在這裡喔那所以我想大家如果沒有共識的話就支持剛剛林月琴委員跟王振軒委員說那我們這條就先保留好了好各位委員還沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3566.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3586.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
沒有好謝謝適度提醒一下本會的會期已將即將結束今天是全會議院的委員會因為我們生前晚這個嚴重落後主要是行政單位的版本有點晚送出來那我們也經多次的這樣的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3587.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3596.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
上一次通過三條 保留六條我們後面還有即將一百多條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3598.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3623.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我們剩下應該從現在開始算起不足四八小時了各位請多多斟酌善用我們這個會期最後每一個人的時間那當然我們還是修還是要非常的精緻精準來取得這樣的一個共識才是真正對生性障礙者的朋友們有一大的這個權利提升跟保障我想這個部分大家就 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3625.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3644.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
從來做討論不過這時間上的問題我們當然也不能急就章所以還是要精細精準精確才真正可以保障我們聲音障礙者朋友的相關的這些權利那如果有共識的部分我們當然就可以盡早來處理然後出委員會沒有共識的部分還是可以出委員會之後我們再來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3645.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3661.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
也請各位委員先進們大家可以共體時間彼此諒解 謝謝接下來這條我們就先行保留繼續來處理願板所提是第11對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3672.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3691.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好 羅庭委員所提的第11條還有郭益勤委員的一樣 也有提11條的修正草案還有我們廖翔昭委是一樣有提還有這個陳錦惠委員 范雲委員吳立華委員現行條文的11條 那請行政機關先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3693.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3710.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
針對各委員版本的第十一條的部分大概修正重點包括幾個第一個是有關身心障礙的生活狀況調查的辦理的頻率現行條文是五年各委員有建議修正的時間有三年到四年不等 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3711.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3738.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那第二個是在調查的內容的部分是不是有一些事項希望能夠需要能夠納到條文裡面來那這個部分的話我們大概有中整了各位委員的建議我們大概對於辦理的內容的部分我們大概會參採的各委員相關的版本我們有一個文字的建議我們現在也有投影在螢幕上那請各位委員參閱那至於辦理的頻率的部分我們是建議是不是可以維持現行條文的五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3739.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3768.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那主要的考量是因为这个统计调查的部分还是能够跟目前已经发出去的身心障碍证明那他原则上他如果是需要做一个重新的复评的话目前复评的年限大概也都是五年那身心障碍者的部分如果说他的状况有摆件需要重新复评一般大概也都是在五年左右在复评的时候会重新去鉴定他的等级或者是他的那个障度 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3769.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3791.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以我們會建議四個部分在調查的年限的部分是不是可以維持現行的條文但是各委員所關心的調查的內容的部分我們就盡可能的把它納進來大概在建議的部分文字在第一項的部分我們文字去做一些相關的整理那就是各級政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3792.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3820.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
因至少每五年举办各障别各障碍程度原住民身份这个部分是增列的身心障碍者之生活状况保健医疗特殊教育就业与训练交通福利支持人力长期照顾经济安全休闲娱乐及辅助使用情形等需求评估及服务调查研究并因出版公布调查研究结果然后第二项 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3821.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3842.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
的文字維持現行 行政院每10年辦理全國人口普查時應將身心障礙者人口調查納入普查項目 以上好 這個針對11條 歡迎委員 在林業警委員 在國會警委員 在廖偉祥 趙偉 在好 羅定偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3844.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3865.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
先肯定就是說有增加一些部分我覺得障別障礙程度原住民身份這個部分進去是蠻好的就我的版本的話支持人力也進去我原本還有一個休閒娛樂它也進去了我覺得至少是比原來的很好這點要肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3867.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3881.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
因為剛剛前面是不滿意的部分那跟我的不一樣的部分我是三年那他這個是五年我自己是覺得說如果地方政府真的做得很好的話因為這是各級政府嘛那當然五年就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3881.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3903.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那這邊覺得沒有辦法三年頻率高一點讓大家感覺更重視的原因是什麼是可以說明一下嗎那我還再講一下就是把那個就是支持人力經濟安全還有很就是大家很重視的休閒娛樂放進去這個部分還有原住民這些放進去各障礙程度的話我是蠻肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3904.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3913.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那現在對我來講就是想要說明一下說是覺得三年是頻率太高會做不到嗎還是工作份量太重大家暫時沒辦法承擔以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3913.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3938.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好 一併回應了好不好 請蝶姓為好 也謝謝衛福部接受我幾乎以我的那個原來的修正動力的版本納入只有一個我想確定一下因為我本來在溝通的時候事實上你們也同意我是用輔助科技可是後來今天現場改成的是輔助輔具的使用情形所以等於也可不可以一併說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3939.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3968.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那我本來事實上寫三年後來在溝通的時候說因為跟整個身上的一些調查事實上是普查事實上是統一五年所以我個人是同意你們用五年這樣一併才不會也是浪費資源所以如果等下改成五年的話我是同意那只是可不可以補充說明因為原本事實上我寫的是輔助科技那你們現在是輔具使用情形那再麻煩 以上好 郭益勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3971.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3986.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好這個地方我的版本當然也納入了這個經濟狀況那我看這個就是新的這邊的這個版本也有把也有把這個經濟的狀況納進去那另外還有休閒娛樂人力支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3987.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4006.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我多了一個就是在所謂的這個滿意度的面向那至於那個調查的時間喔因為這邊是五年那我的版本是四年那我想還有其他委員版本是三年那我是比較折衷啦如果說是四年的話不曉得是不是可以調整成四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4006.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4036.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那我想這個還是要真正回到這個當事人需求跟政策改善的一個方向像之前我去那個台北車站其實就發現那整個所有交通的那個動線其實是對於身上者是非常非常之不友善可以說是非常不友善那連我自己本身這樣子走一趟我都發現那個整個所有的那個那個路線是斷線斷得非常的嚴重所以這個部分我想這個還是要稍微再更精進一點好 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4036.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4058.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好謝謝廖召瑋好首先謝謝行政部門有參賽這個我們提出原住民的這個身份的身心障礙的部分那也有加入我們本席提的這個支持人力長期照顧跟經濟安全等等那當然我們這邊還是希望說是不是這個時程上因為我自己本席提的是3年3年 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4060.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4075.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那還有另外一個是行政院每5年辦理全國人口普查的時候應將身心障礙者的人口調查納入普查項目裡面那我想這個部分要等一下也是請這個行政部門一起回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4076.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4100.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那另外當然這個包含這個本條我們也新增比照這個環境影響評估跟這個性別影響評估的理念我們也希望說明定國家新的政策推動的時候是不是應該先經過身心障礙影響之評估的檢視然後通過評估後才能實施這樣子這部分也希望說我們行政部門是不是也一併來回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4101.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4109.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那當然這個第11條跟第18條的這個原住民的部分其實是有聯動不過等一下到18條再來討論謝謝好謝謝再請羅廷偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4113.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4136.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好首先也是謝謝衛福部的用心那有看到有比我們所提的一個版本還要更精進的那還是要請他說明一下就是三年四年五年這個部分的一個執行狀況會不會造成執行人力的負擔這個部分我們蠻關心的那也希望說能夠以盡量能夠有 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4138.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4145.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
負荷得了的情況又能夠兼具到民眾的需求去做調整是去做調查以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4148.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4168.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
還有 沒有了嗎那請署長回應為什麼你們是15年針對各位委員的垂詢的部分大概辦理人的頻率的部分我們之所以建議能夠維持現行條文主要是有考慮幾個面向那因為第一個身心障礙者他本身他的需求評估他5年會重新做一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4168.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4183.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以他的需求会有干状如果有改变甚至他如果有从如果他的因为状态改变需要重新鉴定调整他的那个身上的类可能有类别或者是那个身上等级会有改变的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4183.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4206.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那大概都会在这个五年一次的这个需求评估的时候容易被发掘出来那么如果他缩短的时候有可能就刚好他说两次调查就落在这个他的需求两次需求评估的中间所以这个调查的时候这个频率和调查频率和他的需求评估频率不一致的时候其实有时候会也会影响调查的调查内容的精准度 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4206.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4225.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那第二个是在调查的部分的作业的时候其实通常每一个这一类性质的调查大概都需要提前一年到一年半就题目的内容以及它的那个提主的这个性效度会需要跟各方面来做一个评估和讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4226.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4253.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那调查大概执行差不多一年那调查结果分析出来差不多也要快一年所以这个确实对行政部门来说缩短的部分确实行政上也是会有一个漏点那在调查的事项的部分其实我们当然我们绝对都尊重委员这边怎么样去能够对于身心障碍者的生活状况做更细致的了解那但是因为身心障碍者本身在做我们不管做任何一类的问卷 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4253.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4273.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
其实都会面临一个比较两难的状况就是题目越多玩法率就会变低这个是在所有的调查的时候大概有时候会面临到的一个两难的状况那我们尽可能把题目拉进来但是未来的旗组的设计确实会需要比较多的努力怎么样 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4273.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4295.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
在这个尤其是有些身心障碍者能够这个接受访问的时间他也会容易会有一些时间上面的一些限制那怎么样能够在一个合理的时间内把问题问完那这边我们尽可能我们现在还是把这个访问的内容去做一个增加那最后由委员承行到说这个部分是不是需要做相关的身心障碍的影响评估的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4296.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4322.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我们之所以没有纳到条文里面来主要是考虑因为行政院在去年度开始已经统一有一个完整的做法就是要求各项不管是法律或者是调查或者是行政措施都有一个完整的人权影响评估机制那所有的包括这一类的计划或者是原定法规都要进行相关完整的人权影响评估 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4323.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4340.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那这个人权影响评估的内涵就包括人权的各个面向不管是身障儿少妇女或者是其他参政权的部分它整个面向都会纳进去所以我们会建议这边是不是就不特别针对身心障碍影响评估的部分再做相关文字的甄列以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4343.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4362.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好 林業勤委員 歡迎委員你的輔具科技沒有回應他 對委員抱歉 我漏掉那我先講一下所謂輔具科技是比輔具更廣因為輔具科技是一個廣泛的總稱它涵蓋了輔具跟輔具服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4363.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4379.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那如果你只是講所以我當初我的寫法為什麼是輔助科技那後來那時候來跟我們溝通的時候同意可是後來為什麼今天又改成是只有輔具使用情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4381.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4403.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那如果今天它事實上是一個總範稱而且涵蓋兩個東西輔具跟輔具服務那如果這樣的話你現在只有輔具使用的話那單一一項而已所以我想說這也一併解釋好嗎 謝謝是 可欣跟我們之前這個剛才確實有漏掉那有關我們為什麼還是使用我們在這個增訂的文字裡面用輔具沒有用輔助科技是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4404.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4424.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
目前輔具的部分不管是生活輔具還是醫療輔具的部分其實大概項目跟內容都已經有一個比較明確的範圍那麼在對身心障礙者做調查的時候這個問題的問項跟使用的範圍會相對比較明確那輔助科技的部分因為現在它確實是面向會變得相當的寬廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4425.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4441.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那不管是不是列到辅聚的项目之内那其他各种可能的都会纳进去那么这个在设计一方面是在问项的设计第二个是可能相关的题组在设计量上面可能相对都会比较宽广 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4441.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4467.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那這個部分的話我們所以暫時先沒有放到那個條文的文字裡面來但是我們未來在設計的整個問卷設計的時候如果在整個問卷的篇幅可以容納的範圍內那我們是可以看看嘗試著是不是把輔具以外其他相關的輔具輔助科技這樣的一些題目我們嘗試著試試看能不能夠把它放到問卷裡面這個部分在未來在問卷調查裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4472.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4495.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們可能要做一點研擬的動作那妳先跟委員做這樣的報告來 請說我覺得沒辦法滿意妳剛剛的回覆因為為什麼因為我說輔助科技如果妳說未來事實上訂了之後還可以考慮寬廣那如果這樣的話因為既然是入法就把它寫得寬廣一點嘛就是說到時候妳再設計問卷的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4497.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4526.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
在做需求評估的時候也會稍微事實上是讓你們比較好做可是你如果單純輔具使用那可是建五大家知道說他用輪椅還用什麼東西可是這個配套的服務難道不需要了解因為所有的需求評估就是為了未來政策的一個制定如果你的需求評估不準確的話那個政策的制定反而事實上是沒有辦法滿足需求他們的需求所以我還是認為是不是用輔助科技然後寬廣一點那到時候你要 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4527.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4532.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
只調查輔具呢還是輔具服務的時候那你就有所選擇以上這個來請換一位員 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4537.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4559.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對啊我也是覺得講輔具可能會忘記輔具科技但是講輔具科技絕對不會忘記輔具所以如果衛福部可以直接接受的話那我的部分那謝謝衛福部說明那個三年跟五年的差異那這個部分我是可以接受當然如果林若晴她那個四年衛福部覺得OK的話我也覺得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4561.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4584.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
郭育晴抱歉抱歉郭育晴不是都有個晴字另外我本來是寫行政院你看他也會練錯你看對那就是大家都有這樣的那個昭偉也幫他平反一下OK那我本來是行政院沒五年然後這邊院版是十年那經過解釋之後我也可以接受所以年的部分我就不堅持只要大家有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4585.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4600.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那另外就是關於我的部分的文字我還有包含就是那個問卷要包含性別年齡跟各族還有就是相關調查與公佈方式應充分諮詢障礙者及障礙者團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4601.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4626.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那這其實都是一個好的問卷這都是要做的基本功因為你剛剛雖然說問卷願長完成度越低對不對可是不會有一個問卷不問人家性別跟年齡的因為你這個要做交叉分析那去更了解所謂的交織性幫助很大那其實我相信你們也會有那包含問卷調查跟怎麼調查能夠諮詢障礙者那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4626.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4640.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那這個部分我覺得讓法條精簡一點如果衛福部可以答應放在文字說明的話我其實是OK的好不好那這樣子我就不堅持然後支持願版也許我們可以過一條以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4641.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4660.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好 非常感謝 歡迎委員總算講到重中之重今天從開會以來已經過四八分鐘至今沒有半個條文通過那這個條文我是不是做這樣建議啦月秦委員你聽我講一下虎距科技使用情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4663.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4691.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這個我的意見啦好不好能不能放在立法說明為什麼虎巨叫做科技使用情形那其他為什麼沒有放科技大致上你要放通通可以放所以是不是在立法說明裡面可以羅列出來那各位如果沒有其他意見可以放在說明欄我們把他放在說明欄可能換位還可以加大一點然後因為在座很多委員都有提出來嘛所以我們就希望說建立才我們各委員所提的因為版本大同小異 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4691.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4716.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
跟通驗中央是差了3年4年5年的部分那各位如果沒有意見我們就採各位委員綜合的這個提案修正通過這樣 沒關係好 妳說來 不好意思我寫的是輔助科技不是輔具科技是輔助輔助科技我說輔助科技含兩個東西一個是輔具一個是輔具服務所以我的意思說如果那樣我不知道就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4717.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4744.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
之前來我們跟我們溝通的時候是同意輔助科技可是我不知道為什麼後來又寫輔具使用情形所以我想說後來再問如果上次溝通的時候都可以的話那這次改的那我說剛剛署長回答的也就是說本來未來允許的話也可以調查比較寬一點那既然這樣子既然法條訂下去這法條也不是用一年兩年因為每一部法要修就像 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4746.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4766.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我們的兒少犬法等了14年都還沒辦法修所以你就表示這一用就要用很久為什麼不是寬一點來解決這些事情未來才不會為了修一條又要再去做調整所以是不是可以這邊也參上一下稍微那就是用輔助科技這樣你這樣說的真的完全意不公這是一個很創新的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4771.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4787.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
輔助科技不是輔具科技請署長你不要誤導我們來再請陳昭志委員好不好然後再請署長一下一併回答謝謝主席有關那個時間的問題因為現在還沒有做一個裁定嘛那因為范議委員跟疫情委員他們提出來的三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4788.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4804.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那其實這個就是說現在那個身障團體他們一直表達是五年是太久那剛剛我仔細聽署長在講的他說因為他每一個人的這個身障這個認定基本上就是五年一次可是不要忘掉啊那個每一個人的五年不是同步開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4805.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4833.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
就是每天每月都有人在申請然後他的效期都不見得就是五年所以我還是在反映那個障礙者團體他們希望他們希望還是用三年的時間就三年來做一次我就先代表民眾黨然後代表我們的這個期待著那個表達我們還是主張這個支持范雲跟范雲委員跟那個一群委員的一個版本我們還是支持這個三年三年做一次評估謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4835.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4839.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
再請署長做精準的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4845.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4863.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
首先我請你回應首先有關輔具和輔助科技的部分我們現在建議的文字是包括輔具使用情形所以不管是輔具的部分不管使用的項目跟使用的狀況和服務的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4865.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4880.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這個部分我們這個文字上列進去那將來針對輔具的細節的各個面向我們都會在調查裡面能夠去做一個呈現先做以上說明那但是輔助科技它的概念上會比輔具來得更寬廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4881.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4896.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那么它将来哪一些可以需要纳到辅助科技的范围它会来得更宽阔的时候那第一个是问卷的题目它对未来需要问到的项目会不会来得更多那这个部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4897.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4910.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
它可能最大的難度會來自於就是它的題組的整個的題組會不會來得更長題目會來得更多我們之所以會這也會連動到前面我們這個有關問這個訪問調查的辦理的頻率 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4915.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4934.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
这个目前现在确实是因为身心障碍者他的需求评估原则上是五年所以每一个身心障碍者他大概五年的一个状况我们会有一个更新虽然每一个个别的障碍者他的起息时间不一样但是五年的时候他大概就每一个障碍者他差不多就会有一轮一个新的状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4936.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4964.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個確實是我們是覺得這樣的調查出來的結果可以比較完整的去呈現這是總體身心障礙者他在這一段調查期間狀態的改變調查結果在做後續的政策推估的時候也會來的資料來得更可用性會來得更高另外這個也必須要跟委員報告確實是在辦理的頻率如果再做縮短的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4965.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4991.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
行政的負荷也確實是一個問題因為每一個像這一類這種是屬於相對是比較中大型的一個調查的部分那通常在問卷題目出來之前平均大概要花一年半左右去做整個問卷內容的重新的研擬檢討甚至做試調然後才開始做正式的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4992.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5008.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那包括調查的時間一般大概我們正常會花差不多一年然後調查結果出來大概還要花超過半年的時間所以我們確實是在行政辦理的頻率上如果縮短到三年行政上的負荷確實也有一定程度的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5009.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5026.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那也考慮到資料內容更新的一個實務的頻率所以這個部分我們會建議是不是有機會能夠維持在五年的情況下來做辦理那這個剛才也跟林月琴委員這邊月琴委員這邊做一個報告的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5026.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5048.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我们刚才在说的是这个辅助科技的部分我们愿意去研究未来在可行性的部分我们在下一轮的这个问卷下一轮的调查里面我们尝试着来做做看因为确实现在把它纳进去的时候我们真的不是很有把握说它的体组的长度跟内容要怎么去做设计 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5048.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5065.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那這個部分的話是不是能夠給我們一點空間所以我們會建 剛才是建議說有關在輔助科技的部分是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來處理那我們願意來做一個相關的研擬的推動 以上好 這個廖偉強稍微先舉手再來換你了 好不好謝謝 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5066.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5079.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好我想要回應一下第一個就是剛剛有一直說到這個調查的難度或者是時間長短可是我還是想要提醒其實現在的這個AI科技已經發達這麼進步然後網路也這麼進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5082.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5110.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那當然你說問卷設計調查這塊就是要收回調查這塊我沒有要我沒有要去這個反對說時間有需要可是這是不是真的需要到5年然後再來就是你的問卷設計以及分析的部分其實現在的這種現在既有的包含AI的發展其實都很快其實事實上我是認為是很快的那這個部分當然我們也希望嚴謹不過我還是要提醒說這樣是不是真的有需要到5年好那我想要提供這樣的意見好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5110.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5132.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好 謝謝廖長 接下來請林玥琴委員第一個我還是為了不要未來資源重複浪費的話我本來我是三年我還是願意支持五年這是第一個 第二個是如果不要用那樣的話有沒有辦法休閒餘熱頓耗輔具及輔具服務等需求評估這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5134.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5160.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
對 那如果因為我覺得既然既然事實上是我說那個輔助科技是涵蓋這兩個你不要用那四個字我不知道大家到底是擔心科技兩個字會讓你造成障礙那我同意這樣子你們覺得 具體輔具服務對 至少服務要列進去嘛一個是輔具的調查他使用輔具的狀況一個是輔具服務到底誰提供這些服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5165.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5182.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
輔具及輔具服務因為兩個不同一個是否則就輔具使用一個是我用什麼輔具我是用輪椅呢還是要用什麼樣的一個一個是誰提供了這些服務輔具服務所以我需要的是這兩個否則就是輔具使用及輔具服務也可以這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5185.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5198.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我們如果照委員這邊的剛才想要調整的話我們是不是建議就是文字調整成輔具使用及服務行行 這樣是不是可行OK 好 謝謝還沒有啦 你們怎麼會你們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5210.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5235.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
剛剛有左三連右三連也有四連的各位要有對這個連有一定程度的共識現在是你的府據使用情形及服務來 請王育民委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5241.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5260.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這個可能衛福部可以考量一下過去在做這樣的一個調查報告我記得大概都是四年五年好像是一個你們是一直根據你們的需求評估但這個其實是調查過去我記得你們的報告好像都是四年其他的類別都五年嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5262.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5290.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
老人儿少生长都是5年你们都设定5年吗目前都是5年但是我想呼应一下刚刚廖伟祥赵伟的讲法事实上你现在都是用一个传统的儿少4年老人生长5年我就记得儿少是4年然后一个我觉得可以下修5年看起来比较久4年其实可以另外一个就是说你们在执行的方法你现在都是用传统的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5291.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5317.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
傳統的問卷、紙本的思考所以你要研議很久但是現在的確AI的進步跟發展我沒有看到事實上我們現在同步在修法我覺得都要融進這樣的一個更新的思維就是說AI的輔助它可以幫助你在這個調查方面事實上它可以是更快速的還有你在方法上面應該是可以改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5318.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5343.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
你的調查對象其實是針對身心障礙的朋友啊對不對那如果說未來你在提供給他的服務上面你有一些現在真的是人人有手心身障朋友其實也是你很多的連結包括現在其實很多社工的報告什麼都可以用語音然後他就可以輸入轉換成文字我覺得未來的科技會改變很多所以剛剛你們在擔心的是說用傳統的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5343.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5371.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
他要曠日廢時所以你要拉到五年你比較有把握但是未來真的我們很多的工具包括我們服務的工具都應該要改變我們調查的工具其實也會改變那我我是比較贊成可以再下修到四年啦既然兒少那邊可以四年我就這邊改四年應該不會太困難三年可能短一點但四年應該是可以接受另外一個你們應該要去思考就是科技的運用在你的服務的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5374.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5391.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 請我們自開會以來已經過了60分鐘請慎重回應好 五年改四年部分我們配合委員討論的結果好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5399.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5417.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好 我們請行政機關再來做一次宣讀看各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就可以真正邁出第一步整個條文我整個宣讀一次各級政府因至少每四年舉辦各障別各障礙程度原住民身份之身心障礙者之生活狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5418.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5441.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練交通福利支持人力長期照顧經濟安全休閒娛樂輔具使用及服務等需求評估及服務調查研究並因出版公佈調查研究結果行政院每10年辦理全國人口普查時應將身心障礙者人口調查納入普查項目以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5444.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5454.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好各位委員這樣可以接受了吧好那我們就是各位委員仲裁各位委員的版本及修正動議修正後通過好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5462.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5481.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 繼續處理行政院所提第15條的版本還有委員羅美玲 劉建國 蔡玉瑜 郭雨琴 何欣淳然後還有蘇巧慧 吳麗華 李坤誠等還有現行條文請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5483.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5510.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
行政院版第15條主要是一個文字的處理因為在109年的時候曾經修正過第14條的文字那這個15條跟14條的那個有關相次等等的引用必須要有一個配套所以我們修正第15條這主要是相次引用的部分做一個整理那各委員的版本跟行政院版都一樣基本上內容都相同所以我們建議這個部分是照行政院版的行政院提案的條文來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5510.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5535.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
好各位委員應該可以吧好那這一條我們就依照行政院的提案來通過繼續審查行政院版的第16條還有委員煥雲16條16條之一還有委員郭益勤羅廷偉劉建國台灣民眾黨是16還有16條之一那蔡宇宇16郭益勤委員是16就是16條之一還有何謙淳16 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5537.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5543.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
廖翔昭委16 陳慶威16然後林月琴委員16至16之1 范穎文也是兩次16至16之1還有蘇小蕙委員 吳亦華委員16 黃玉敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5554.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5582.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
外媒林委員 還有李崑禎委員 張雅玲委員還有行刑條文還有這個修正動議有第八案也是林月琴委員所提修正動議第十二案劉健委員所提修正動議十三案王振訊委員所提修正動議十四案林月琴委員所提還有修正動議十九盧憲立委員所提好我們先請行政機關來做說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5587.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5613.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
行稅版第16條這次條文修正的幅度是比較大的那主要修正重點大概有幾項第一個是現行的條文主要是針對歧視的部分的處理那我們參考這個相關公約的規定我們把除了歧視之外針列騷擾這樣的一個文字那這個在相關的國際公約裡面歧視和騷擾大概都是並列我們就把它拿到第一項裡面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5613.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5632.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那第二項就是我們針對合理調整的部分我們針對了一個需要這個合理調整的部分那要不造成不成比例或過度負擔的情況下經過協商的程序來做相關的處理那以及在這個這次修正條文施行前的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5632.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5653.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那各機關需要做的一個過度的以及需要的相關的過度的規範那以及針對這個歧視或者騷擾的部分那未來在我們在第五項的部分整理了文字那他如果是有歧視騷擾造成損害那不管是財產上或者非財產上的部分那都可以納入損害的請求 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5653.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5682.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那針對各委員版本所提供的各委員版本的內容跟行政院版比較有規範的架構不太一樣的地方包括有委員的版本是有關歧視的部分是要納入是不是歧視的樣態是不是要包括直接歧視和間接歧視等等那我們是建議這個部分由於在這個在相關公約裡面對於歧視的定義都已經有一個一致性的規定我們建議在這邊是不是就不需要額外再去做相關的敘寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5683.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5702.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那第二個是有關在合理調整的部分是不是要增列相關的罰則那我行政部門的考量主要是目前合理調整是這一次修正的時候我們大概雖然在社會上有很多的討論但是定入到法律裡面來這是一個比較相對是一個比較新的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5702.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5725.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那對於未來怎麼樣操作以及這個實際上運用了範圍的部分應該怎麼樣實務上怎麼樣去實踐可能還需要一點時間來去形成一個運作的模式所以我們會建議這個部分未來在罰則的部分在相對應的罰則的部分我們建議可以先不增列但是這個由於我們在建議到這個有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5726.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5741.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
合理調整的時候我們現在的條文架構是有一個它要經過一個協商的程序所以我們在罰則的部分我們建議是針對如果這個義務人他連協商都拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5742.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5762.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
协商都拒绝根本拒绝进入协商程序这个部分我们纳入罚则但是对于协商的结果怎么样去认定它是不是已经达到是不是有不成比例或过度负担这个部分的话我们觉得国内还需要有一个实务去摸索的时间我们建议对结果的部分暂时先不纳入到 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5763.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5784.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
相關的罰則那另外有委員的版本提到就是有關合理調整的範圍是不是擴及到這個以比行政院版本更寬廣的一些領域行政院目前主要是針對教育 招口 禁用就業 醫療服務矯正措施還有其他經中央主管機關公告的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5785.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5806.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那各委員的版本大概建議增列的包括了交通資訊禁用金融服務 隱私參政 體育文化活動 休閒娛樂等等非常多的項目那這個部分的話我們是建議這個部分在國內目前還在初步引進的階段如果現在先不列到條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5807.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5833.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
即使現在不列入條文未來還是可以參考行政院的版本它是透過中央主管機關公告的權益事項它是可以逐步可以納進來的那能夠讓國內有一個一步一步來去做適應的一個的期程能夠來做相關的調整那這個大概是以上跟各委員版本主要有不同的地方先做以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5835.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5856.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好 這個委員要表達意見時我們先歡迎好久不見的楊耀委員謝謝好 請陳昭志委員來做發言謝謝謝謝主席因為這條是非常重要的一個條文我想針對第16條補充說明為什麼民眾黨認為有必要在條文或至少在立法理由中清楚處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5857.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5877.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
合理调整跟歧视之间的关系我们现在面对的问题就是国际人权法已经非常有清楚的概念我国现行法治中仍然停留在比较模糊的状态导致这个权利在实务上难以被主张那CRP第二条对于歧视定义就明确的指出拒绝提供合理的调整本身就是个人歧视 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5877.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5907.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
但是我們現在第16條的狀況是只規定應提供合理的調整卻沒有清楚說明如果不提供法律效果是什麼當然我不是說就指法則結果就是說身心障礙者很難進一步有救濟這也是這個障礙者代表組織DPU希望大家能夠理解合理調整如果沒有連結到歧視的定義就只會停留在一個善意提醒而不是權力的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5907.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5928.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以我這裡要談的是一個責任舉證責任的問題我知道大家可能會擔心說這樣設計會不會造成行政機關或機構過度的負擔但我覺得我們必須面對一個事實在涉及合理調整的案件中資訊跟資源本來就高度不對等那如果要求身心障礙者自行去證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5929.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5944.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
为什么可以调整为什么不构成的过度负担这个实务上这个权利几乎不可能被行使所以我们希望至少在机构或医务人员上拒绝提供合理调整时 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5944.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5968.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
有说明理由的责任例如为何构成不成比例或过度负担这是一个最低限度的一个程序正义的要求它不是一个惩罚性的设计所以我想我要说如果今天我们在第16条连不提供合理调整在法律上具有歧视意涵这件事这个观点都没有办法清楚处理的话那么这一条恐怕很难回应 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5969.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5983.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
國際審查長期對台灣提出的批評也很難讓身心障礙者真的把它當作一個可以依賴的這個權利以上說明再請行政機關來回覆 謝謝好 再請煥宇委員再王玉敏委員再煥宇委員好這條喔對不起 煥宇委員完之後林益勤委員再王玉敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6002.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6018.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我想這條真的是藏權法的心臟很多身心障礙者跟身心障礙者的團體跟我講說他們肯定行政院版但是裡面會有非常多的擔心特別就是說第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6019.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6043.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那大家看到第四项的部分好像等于是让合理调整有了因为合理调整跟无障碍是两个概念无障碍是整体的环境但是合理调整在整体环境还没到达前其实个别的障碍者就有机会立刻有一个就是相对比较好的环境可是这个条文等于是让合理调整在最长三年内都无法实际使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6044.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6064.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那在这个期间如果身心障碍者因为缺乏合理调整被排除那他很难去主张具体的权利那要处理的话只好个人去去告去诉诸司法那大家也知道我们司法体系的障碍重重一个东西判决下来有好几年 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6065.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6094.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那如果没有一个更好的方式的话那其实你等于是个人要去解决我们整体制度性的问题那你就个别去告好了那另外一个就是那这边的歧视其实我们已经往前跨一步嘛那可是呢关于就是说歧视的定义那为什么不能够把CRPD里面明确写的就是直接歧视间接歧视还有拒绝提供合理调整就是歧视能够写在这里呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6095.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6123.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
因为很多比如说相关的单位机关地方政府他不代表他看这个东西就会再去参照CRPD那能够重要的东西放在这那这个又是重中之重的话我认为就是是蛮重要的那也提醒大家就是CRPD的国际审查委员两次国家报告的结论都认为我们现行的杖权法并未适当规定国家积极义务 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6123.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6146.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
以确保实质平等建议将合理调整纳入各项国家法规并确保法律规定拒绝合理调整就构成歧视那这是两次CRPD的国际审查委员里面的结论所以我想就是说政院版这边有设定一年内定定指引两年内定定流程是好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6147.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6166.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
可是好像没有在任何的地方说违反义务是否立刻处罚那这样子就是一个如果没有的话我不知道我没有漏看待会儿卫福部是不是说明一下如果说叫人家一年内要怎么样两年怎么样可是都没有罚则我们这是一个象征性的宣告吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6167.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6185.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那最后这边其实涉及到刚刚前面被保留的就是那个国家人权委员会可以进行调查可以申诉这个部分那这其实不是台湾独创的我们看到就是韩国的藏权法好像他们名称很长他的那个第四章 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6186.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6200.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
障碍者歧视纠正机构及权力救济等就有讲得非常清楚那你说他是不是在别的法中有讲可是他这边就很清楚讲说有一个障碍者歧视纠正机构因为有可能地方政府也不理这个障碍者 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6201.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6229.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那澳洲的相關的法規還有紐西蘭的也都有明定他們的國家人權委員會那可以因為就是歧視騷擾行為跟未獲得合理調整就向國家人權委會提出申訴那我覺得這都是就是如果大家覺得紐西蘭澳洲的標準比較遠我們的鄰居韓國其實也有很明定就是相關的糾正機構跟權力救濟以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6230.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6247.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好 也請委員謝謝召委因為這條裡面有三個重點一個是把消極禁止轉為積極促進第二個是將合理調整入法並且定定指引最後還是希望能夠有一個損害請求權 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6249.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6270.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以我大致上是跟院版相同可是針對於拒絕合理提供合理調整及構成歧視這個部分可能要請部會回應一下似乎有很多要討論的地方昨天國家人權委員會也建議應該要將拒絕合理提供合理調整視為構成歧視是不是等一下請你們一併回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6271.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6296.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那我覺得這次要肯認的是願把第二項的那個修正重點從消極禁止轉為積極促進把條文二不得修正為因我覺得很重要明確要求公共設施場域的一個營運者必須主動來保障身心障礙者公平使用設施的平等權利而不是只是避免歧視那我的有增加第三項就新增第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6297.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6316.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主要是為了真正落實身心障礙者權利公約的一個精神我們不能只停留在形式上的保障而且現在很多身心障礙者其實是因為活動場地不友善活動設計沒有考慮合理調整而被排除在休閒娛樂跟文化活動之外這次修法主要是想釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6316.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6338.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
要求各目的事業主管機關要主動負起責任去規劃輔導或自行辦理適合身心障礙者的活動不能去限縮掉他一個的活動的一個權利所在同時應該要檢視並提供合適的一個活動場域讓身心障礙者能夠真正的公平的去參與我們的公共生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6339.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6367.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那不過第四項就是主要回應事實上是身心障礙者在各類考試或是制度當中常被忽略的特殊需求所以希望明確的要求在相關安排當中應該依身心障礙者的特殊性做必要調整並同時擴大適用對象跟範圍納入事業單位法人以及教育禁用跟就業醫療居住跟矯正等重要領域那同時這次修法也應該要依據就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6367.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6393.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
身心障礙公約的合理調整的精神明定全責單位在造成不成比例或過度負擔的前提下應提供必要且適當的調整確保身心障礙者在平等基礎上能夠行使權利因為考量到合理調整涉及到各個部會所以增訂第五項要求各目的事業主管機關能夠在修法公佈之後一年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6394.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6417.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我的事實上是一年內能夠訂定合理的調整指引並依業務性質跟規模然後明確其適用範圍那尤其最後大概就是為了讓合理調整不只是原則宣示我們也增訂了第六項要求機關學校跟機關事業機構法人或團體在指引完成兩年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6419.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6432.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
訂定並公開合理的一個調整的申請跟處理流程真正來落實那我有附帶決議把那個合理調整的定義講清楚說明白以上好 謝謝再來是王玉敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6434.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6460.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這一條的確是重中之重之前我在質詢的時候其實就提到像之前台鐵我們自己的國營事業都還有這樣的案例沒有針對身心障礙的員工進行合理的調整而事情期滿的話就進行之前對於身心障礙者的這個工作權侵害非常的大而他可以救濟的途徑是什麼就是自己去提這個訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6462.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6486.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以我們的法令對於身心障礙者的保障不足從那個案例裡面看得非常的清楚雖然勞動部在114年7月1號有頒訂身心障礙者職場合理調整的行政指導但是他只是行政指導不是法律他也沒有辦法強制課與雇主合理調整的義務而且也沒有法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6488.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6514.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以身心障礙者在工作職場遇到這個僱主沒有合理調整那他只能透過訴訟這個就是我們現在的現況那我們現在要修法那當然這個16條這個重中之重我認為應該就是要把這個身心障礙者他的這個如果僱主拒絕合理調整的話那這個相關的要把原來行政指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6515.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6541.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他沒有這個法則這樣的事情其實應該要放到這一個16條裡面更何況我們的國家報告結論性的意見其實都明確指出來拒絕合理調整極為歧視但是我們現在這一個文字沒有入法連國家人權委員會其實都有意見他其實提指出來有好幾點其中一點他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6542.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6566.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
建議行政院這個的反歧視法裡面的文字條文可以入到我們現在身權法的第16條所以我覺得這個應該要參考另外一個就是對於這個司法禁用就身心障礙者司法禁用納入權益保障事項那這個部分呢這個人權委員會其實也有提出來比照韓國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6567.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6584.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這一個障礙者反歧視法那把司法事務明確的列入合理調整辦理的權益事項那這個呢也是我們現在其實沒有的所以這一條我們這次生權法的一個修法16條的確是很關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6587.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6616.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那這個聲浪團體其實也很關注這一條的這個修法的實質內容所以我建議這個衛福部應該要審慎的參考包括這個人權委員會的意見跟看法還有委員提出來版本還有聲權團體的意見我們應該是要用最大的力量在這一條裡面去確保這個身心障礙者的權益另外最後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6618.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6635.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
國家人權委員會對於歧視事件的處理他有定在行政院研擬的這個反歧視法當中那將來的這個受理跟處理這個會不會有彼此競合的關係那這個可能就是在處理這一條是我們要一併來考量以上 謝謝好 接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6644.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6670.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
人家要先讓你了先讓你就是先讓你合理調整為了避免歧視是不是我大概是這樣子我覺得好幾個委員都講過了那我們立法的理由大概就是這一個16條的修正本身就是為了要符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6672.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6679.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
申請障礙者權利公約的規定還有引用了國外的判例不過這邊有一個問題就是說在從16條 院版16條第三項的規定來看就是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6691.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6710.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
成不成比例 過度負擔到協商程序我覺得整個過程就是對於身障工作者來講全部都基於非常極度弱勢的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6711.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6735.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
也就是說到底什麼情況是我們現在草案裡面所規定的成不成比例過度負擔應該都是會由機關來做認定協商的程序裡面怎麼做合理調整我覺得這個日後修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6736.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6763.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
通過以後也會產生爭議因為第三項裡面使用了好幾個不確定的法律概念那我們是不是在修法的時候就必須要注意到以後怎麼保障保障身障者在法律的規定裡面順利的進行在合理調整的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6764.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6787.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
得到確實的保障還有就是我們確實是有規定機關必須要在指引公告日期一定時間內必須要制定合理調整的流程還有公開程序可是並沒有很 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6791.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6807.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
只是一個宣示沒有強制的課餘當然我們希望也相信行政機關會照著修法版本的時間來完成因為整個程序下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6808.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6826.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
接下來不管是合理調整或者是克與行政機關我覺得在於牢固雙方其實本來就存在很大的武器不公平這個希望行政機關可以注意好 謝謝 再請委員長召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6831.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6846.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
好針對這一條本學有幾點建議那我想這個剛好昨天出來這個國家人權委員會對於我們的這個對行政院的版本的草案的建議這是時間點很剛好所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6846.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6869.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
第一點意見就是本條是身心障礙者反歧視條款的規定所以我們還是認為應該要參酌身權公約的第二條規定身心障礙者遭逢歧視之權利內容涉及身心障礙者之公民政治經濟社會文化等層面的基本人權且參酌第六號意見第十八點的內容就是身心障礙的歧視樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6870.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6891.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
主要包括直接歧視間接歧視以及未進行合理調整及對身心障礙者之騷擾另外依據CRPD的第二次國家報告審查的結論性意見也提到現行的生權法沒有明確的規定拒絕合理調整即為歧視所以為了使本條的規範內容能夠跟國際接軌建議修正本條的第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6896.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6912.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那明文規定本法有關於身心障礙者反歧視行為的規定的適用對象及行為樣態那行政院版本有關於合理調整僅限於在這個第二項所明示的內容那本席的條文則是強調廣泛的適用對象以及行為樣態的的態樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6914.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6933.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那對於合理調整則是依循這個CRPD的第二條之規範那規定於第一項的第三款並要求不得有未進行合理調整者那當然這是相對比較積極的一個定法那第二點意見呢就是依據生權公約的第二條規定合理調整指的是具 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6934.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6950.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
具體需要與不造成過度或不當負擔之情況下進行必要及適當的修改與調整以確保身心障礙者在與其他人平等基礎上相擁或行使所有人權及基本自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6950.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6973.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以我們今天查現行的本條的第三項明定的公私立機構團體學校跟企業公開辦理各類的考試應該依照身心障礙應考人個別的障礙需求在考試公平原則下提供多元性的適性協助以保障身心障礙者公平應試的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6974.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7002.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那這個本質上也屬於合理調整所想要規範的情形那主要是因為現行的條文內容還是覺得不足所以參酌這個生權公約的第二條合理調整的精神所以這個修改我們的第三項的文字以明文的揭示合理調整的定義那我本席還是要強調合理調整的義務提供方在這裡還是會遇到許多的阻礙所以我們需要政府告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7002.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7017.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
要如何克服這些阻礙或是政府也有責任必須要提供一些資源或協助藉此幫助大家來克服這些這個阻礙的部分而不是只有發布指引說必須要怎麼做或應該怎麼做而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7018.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7043.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好那第三點意見就是現行法的這個本條的第二項所明定公共設施所營運者不得使身心障礙者無法公平使用設施設備或相有權利那本質上我想這個上屬於沒有無障礙條款所預規範的情形所以看到其這個現行條文還是不足所以我們還是希望可以參酌這是生權公約的第九條規定所以我們才 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7044.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7058.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
修正本條的第二項的文字然後明文的皆是無障礙的定義所以剛剛還有提到第四點意見昨天剛出爐的國家人權委員會針對行政院生權法的修正意見也建議應該要明定拒絕一 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7059.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7088.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個身心障礙者權益保障法或特殊教育法等規定提供合理調整者為了基於身心障礙的歧視令這個院版的第三項的列舉的事項並沒有包含司法事務所以本席的版本第三項跟國家人權委員會有相同的建議也就是應該依據CRPD第13條跟第一號一般性意見將司法事務也明確的列為合理調整的辦理的權益事項以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7096.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7107.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
新北市跟台北市的身障團體有來拜訪我所以一定要把他的修正動議念一下身陷障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7108.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7129.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
因确保身心障碍者在就学就业交通医疗司法禁用休闲娱乐体育运动政治参与文化生活矫正措施监锁处于其他各项生活领域得以与他人平等享有或行使权利不得因其障碍而有任何形式之歧视排除限制或骚扰 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7130.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7150.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
前項禁止歧視的範圍包含身心障礙者家屬照顧者或其他與其密切關聯者所遭受之關聯性歧視公共設施及向公眾提供設施或服務的營運者不得使身心障礙者無法或顯著不利於公平使用設施設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7151.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7164.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
服務 資訊 通訊或享有相關權利這是他們提供的修正動議我要把它唸出來讓他們知道說 等於有相當重視他們的意見好 謝謝再請國務委員 完之後再請王振興委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7171.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7195.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好謝謝主席這個第16條的部分那我的這個修正有擴大這個權益適用的一個範圍那納入了這個體育運動然後政治參與跟休閒活動而且明確的禁止就是對家屬以及其他相關人員的一些關聯性的歧視那另外同時也把這個拒絕提供合理調整明文列為所謂的這個歧視的類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7195.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7225.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那结合这个损害赔偿的一个机制那补强身心障碍者他们权利可以主张可救济的一个法治的一个基础让这个反歧视不是只有在于宣誓哦那还是最重要的是要能够落实跟在实务上面那第16条之一就是合理调整的义务跟这个协商的一个机制哦那我有在我自己的版本里面我有特别在新增哦就是明确合理调整适用于各类公共服务和设施 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7225.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7246.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那並保障這個障礙者呢他們可以提出調整的一個要求然後啟動這個協商喔那同時也將這個過度負擔的一些舉證的責任回歸到義務的承擔人那要求政府可以提供這個經費跟行政上的支持喔那確保這個合理的調整他不是口號而是能夠真正落實的一個權利跟制度啦好 以上好 謝謝王志俊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7251.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7274.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
謝謝主席這邊表達三點那第一點就是有關第16條真的是重中之重那有關醫療的部分特別也要麻煩我們的主管機關這邊再度確認一下我們了解如果是大型的醫療機構針對於這些神經障礙者要提供一個無障礙的空間不管是他的走道或者是他的就診 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7275.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7302.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那更重要就是洗手間無障礙的設施是非常非常重要的一個需求那大型的醫療機構基本上是沒有問題可是萬一他是屬於這個個人服務的這種診所或者是他曾經在這個已經設在各個大廈之下的這個服務的地方診所的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7303.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7331.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他要改建會面臨實質上的困難那這樣的困難將來要怎麼去解決這個可能也麻煩主管機關這邊能夠提供一些意見或者是相關的設施因為我們知道其實很多的醫療診所尤其是個人的這個診所他可能都是整個民眾的後處兵如果說因為實施了這樣的這個法條以後造成他們在服務上的困難要改建的不可能的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7332.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7345.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那到時候萬一歇業了那事實上對附近的居民的這些診所的使用反而是造成另外一種阻礙或障礙所以我們很期待說在這個法條做處理的過程裡面針對醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7349.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7365.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
對這個身陷障礙者的使用的部分看有沒有一個更好的可行的方案來提供給在醫療使用上不管是所有的民眾還是對身陷障礙的這個保障都能夠達到一定的平衡避免造成其他的困擾這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7365.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7380.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那第二點就是如果法條通過以後我們也知道郭委員也一直強調我們很多的交通真的都無法得到很好的改善我們雖然是希望得到改善可是事實上的改善還是有它的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7381.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7396.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以我們有一個附帶決議就希望能夠在一年裡面能夠有各種改善的方案尤其是在強化交通運輸工具服務人員的訓練還有這些宣導還有查核機制等等都能夠來落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7397.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7412.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那第三點就是我們從開議到現在已經94分鐘久坐不動真的是對身心障礙是不好的還有正常人也是一樣所以看主席能不能夠透過官員說明以後能夠適度休息 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7418.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7447.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 謝謝王委員提醒我們等一下讓大家有充分休息的時間我們會合理的調整這個我在這邊補充希望行政機關還是要依照這個我們的國家人權委員會提供的這個一些意見我剛剛看到第四款是這樣有鑑於韓國的障礙者環及司法明定政府機關與司法機關須提供合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7448.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7469.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那對照我們原本的16條第三項列舉之事項並未包括司法事務這個部分我想這個是一件重要事情那第二個是我這邊有提的修正東西是綜合大家的版本有比較不一樣的地方還是要爭略希望行政機關做一個一併做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7472.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7487.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個舉證責任 歧視案件中行刑障礙者往往是處於這個資訊不對稱的情況之下那權力弱勢的一方所以如果要要求這個受害者必須完全證明機關有歧視的故意或歧視的過失這在法律上幾乎是不可能的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7488.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7510.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
然後性平滑第31條也寫得很清楚收購者或求職者於市民差別待遇之事實後故主應就差別待遇之非性別性傾向因素或該收購者或求職者所從事工作之特定性別因素或舉證責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7512.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7531.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以這個就是這個法律已經14多年證明的唯有舉證責任導致才能真正解決這個職場歧視的修正困難的問題那相對我們生意障礙者面臨的職場障礙往往會比性別議題來更加隱蔽例如因為沒有無障礙設施而被技術性勸退 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7532.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7559.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
或者是說如果性別議題都需要有法律舉證責任轉換來保護身障的議題更沒有理由把責任丟給最弱勢的身障者所以生前法應該是准用或將性公法的第31條的精神這個入法所以我希望這個等一下行政機關要來因為你們未來會牽涉到執法還有這個未來訴訟的資源上所以必須要去確立這個舉證責任轉換的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7563.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7583.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
然後當身障者提出的受差別在於初步的事實就是說我提出的需求當對方拒絕這個情況之下舉證責任就應該轉移到機構方了我的修正動議 請這機關再看一下OK 好 做這樣補充你可以 你可以再補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7588.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7612.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我第16條的部分其實是我有增加一個在居住遷徙後面我加了一個運動那我是最主要是說其實我們今年開始有運動部了那其實我們一直在推廣適應運動可是其實有很多的身障者來跟我反映說很多的場地他們其實沒有進去的沒有辦法進去光進去上面都有一點困難而且還要使用上面還被拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7613.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7636.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以我只是想說我們現在其實在很多的場館上面其實是缺乏這個無障礙通行的一個環境跟幸運運動可以發展的一個場地所以希望說在這個地方既然我們要修正身上全法的時候是不是也應該把運動一起來放進去因為這是最常容易被忽略的地方好那我是希望我的想法是這樣子啊那我不曉得說那個衛福部的想法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7637.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7662.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好 法律要有明確性啦 也必須要有牙齒啦應該講說他拒絕 如果沒有合理的理由那基本上就應該去被認定為歧視啦應該是這樣 先做這樣提醒因為剛剛有委員 而且又有議事背景的專業人員提出說我們到現在沒有休息 已經造成不合理的對待所以 現在休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7681.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7706.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
運動場地在現行的條文使用的排位圖像它的那個場地使用裡面施理系統裡面運動場所已經是被免約在這一季度了所以它如果有這個排位使用一邊滑動一邊滑動對 這一邊滑動對 這一邊滑動對 這一邊滑動對 這一邊滑動 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7711.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7720.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
可是我們團體它其實也不只是生意生息還有就是很多運動的那個發展它們都希望是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7730.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7731.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那你沒有地方嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7759.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7765.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7781.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7807.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我覺得這個很複雜,也要看你比較清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7810.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7830.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
中文字幕 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7841.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7854.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7874.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7882.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們也開記者會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7887.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7901.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以我們團體平台應該要把運動結合我覺得打運動方面也很困難但也很有意義來相處 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7941.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7955.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7971.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7994.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的一間餐廳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8024.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8045.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8065.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8078.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8087.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8090.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我幫你看一下你的那個修正動力跟負擔決議有沒有缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8106.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8108.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
今天應該會有兩本修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8123.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8129.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
附帶會從14開始所以附帶的附帶這本13然後接下來就是1415 16然後還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8138.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8149.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
應該還會有個17 18還沒給你對不對對這是修正這是修正你要看喔附帶跟修正不一樣所以修正從修正是要從15開始所以你等我一下這是附帶的然後修正的修正的對修正所以你剛剛沒有人發給你對不對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8169.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8177.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
副帶的完整就是這份修正的至少你的要完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8186.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8186.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8225.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8226.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
國家人權委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8235.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8236.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8250.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8259.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
然後那個附帶決議啊就是1到22在這邊然後修正動議啊1到19全部都已經按照順序排好了然後如果有多的話就是直接往這邊看就是看修正跟附帶謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8283.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8295.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8305.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8334.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8335.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8359.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你可不可以自己你們的修正筒我們有關檢查是有一定的意義但是不曉得討論 討論不到但是我們等於是不討論所以說是我們希望跟你們討論所以請跟我們對話是對 我只是說就這東西的文字上當然我們是定的沒關係沒關係 你們也可以提供任何的文字我知道 我是說文字我們也是可以如果什麼修正筒在裡面它是一片文的修正筒它是叫我們給文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8366.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8366.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
應該是還好一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8409.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8417.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
他發了二十幾歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8457.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8457.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8569.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8577.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
好,经过王振旭委员议事的专业评估,我们休息时间已经足够。请各位回座,继续开会。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8580.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8601.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我們現在是不是請行政單位來做統一的回應謝謝好 非常感謝主席還有各位委員的一個指教我現在先先針對剛剛前面有一個就是范雲委員第十條第一項修正動議就是裡面特別有提到民定那個國家人權委員會為CRPD獨立監督機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8601.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8618.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
然後這裡面有關於申訴的部分這部分我們可以同意沒有問題好不好這是第一個另外第二個剛剛岳勤委員有提到就是有關於這個CRC的部分我們也覺得這個是很好的意見所以這邊我們也會樂意配合以上那有關於第16條的部分我現在請署長來跟會上來做一個說明謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8625.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8652.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
綜合各位委員剛才針對第16條的意見我們大概我大概簡單說明如下有關在因為現行條文在16條的部分其實已經有一部分對於這類歧視行為的處理那像第16條第二項它是有一個場館場所的部分已經有一個讓身心障礙者有公平使用的權利所以有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8654.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8681.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
行為如果是屬於場所的部分的話現行的條文第16條第二項例如說如果是像運動場地的部分那本來是在這種部分其實是一定一定有一定程度可以做一些基本的處理那如果說要進一步要納到第16條第一項如果說有其他的除了場所的公平使用之外有其他的歧視行為的話那可能我們就我們可能個別的行為例如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8681.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8701.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
像第16條的第一項是不是要再納入像運動還是像體育運動這樣的文字那基本上我們是尊重那如果要的話看我們等一下再整理一下文字看看是把它放在第一項的哪個地方那第二個是有關在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8703.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8717.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
人權會的部分那是不是對於有關涉及到尤其是涉及到司法的部分是不是要納入合理調整這個部分我們可能要拜託司法院等一下可能幫我們來做一些說明那這個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8718.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8747.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
可能還是要跟委員做一個報告的部分就是由於合理調整確實在國內是一個相當新的制度所以當初在研擬這個條文的時候也跟國內的一些相關的一些團體做過蠻多的討論那多數的團體大概綜合多數團體的意見也認為在這樣一個國內還在這個嘗試在逐步導入的階段的時候是希望說也希望說採取一個相對是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8749.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8772.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
能够让国内未来这个制度深隔是可以走的比较稳健所以当时我们才会在行政院把第三项和第四项加进了这样一个一年内去定相关的指引然后最后在这个指引公告后两年内要去把合理调整的流程要去把它定出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8772.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8798.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那希望就是用一个比较谨慎的一个比较稳健的做法然后引导国内能够逐步把这个各个相关的领域把这个合理调整的过程能够比较清楚的去做一个相关的导入那所以也因为这样所以这个我们的在条文的里面我们也因此也一开始没有马上就定力说这个不合理调整会定法则但是我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8799.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8818.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
在法则的部分我们在草案的第100条之一行政院版第100条之一对于这个定例的这个相关的指引之后如果这个义务人他是连这个做合理调整的协商都拒绝就是一开始就拒绝协商 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8819.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8836.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們在行政院版的條文第100條之一我們有設計一個對應的罰則但是對於這個開始協商之後怎麼樣去導引到一個合理調整的結果由於在這次條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8838.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8864.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
有涉及到各个多不同的领域那怎么样去定到相关的标准的部分那确实是需要在未来的指引里面去逐步去引导国内的相关的各个行业去一步一步的来落实所以我们现在对于这个协商如果最后没有办法导引出一定的结果的时候那我们是觉得这个部分我们暂时是建议先不要去这个把它拉进来 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8865.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8881.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那針對剛才有各位委員建議在這個第16條的第一項包括例如說像政治參與的部分是不是要納進來的部分那 對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8882.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8895.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
應該是第三項第三項合理調整是不是要把有委員的版本政治參議員拉進來那我們會有一個我們也建議是說文字的部分我們有一個建議的處理那我們有放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8897.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8916.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個現在放在投影幕上那我們是建議在這個有關政治參與的部分我們是不是就比較明確的把它要去建議參考的範圍就把它列出來就是公職人員的選舉罷免就明確的把它訂出來那這個是國內大概人民參政權最主要的部分我們去把它做一個爐列 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8920.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8936.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
王振興委員所提到的在有關醫療服務的這個未來去引進合理調整的時候那確實是這個也就是我們當時在考慮到的可能比較我們覺得他未來在運作的時候由於一 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8938.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8961.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個醫療機構的規模從大型的醫學中心到這個最基層的診所它的能夠去調整的狀況會不太一樣那我們在這邊所以我們也是覺得未來將來是真的在不同的層級不同的狀況的時候它可能細節它確實是需要透過未來將來的指引的操作去怎麼樣去引導讓不同的規模樣態的診所 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8963.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8991.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
能够去做到一个适合这个诊所的一个行政的状况那另外也有多位委员提到这个未来在做合理调整的时候那是不是要去做有相关的能够政府能够去给予这些做有一些行政资源上面的协助那这个我们初步的想法是说由于合理调整它在国际公约上它的一个基本概念其实就是义务人 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8992.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9012.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
和身心障碍者中间协商让义务人不要过度负担去做的一件事情所以它的主要责任它是会落在这个各个场域的义务人的由义务人来处理但是政府的部分的话我们会觉得这个应该即使要去做行政资源投入它可能不是政府的 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9013.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9025.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個變成政府去做合理調整而是應該是義務人做合理調整所以我們建議這個部分可能如果要操作的話是不是可以透過一個附帶決議的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9028.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9050.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
将来由中央主管机关或者是目的事业主管机关在做有相关的奖励或者是补助措施的时候这个是由主管机关得来是相关各个领域的状况来提供一些适度的补助让义务人能够更安心的来去做相关的推动 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9051.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9067.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
最後有關那個我們召委有提到的這個舉證責任轉換的部分那我們是我們的我們初步評估如果是這個要納進來的話我們也參考了相關的一些規定跟相關的法規我們覺得如果要我們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9069.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9089.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
舉證責任轉換的部分我們會嘗試著納進來那我們請同仁來準備一下條文如果可行的話我們等一下就把那個建議的條文拿出來也請委員把它投影出來請委員來做我們剛剛投影出來那委員這個也請委員可以一併等一下再一併來過目那先做以上的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9092.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9116.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
要不要先看完之後再 我只覺得他第一個其他委員的都 我覺得這樣基本上現在我看起來有些東西我們的也有納入可是有 我提出來新增第三項是沒有納入你也沒有說明為什麼說考量的是什麼因為剛剛都有各個委員甚至我們的版本有些東西你在其他項目都有納入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9116.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9144.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
第三項事實上這也是這次在修這個我們的身障夥伴們非常在意的一點就是休閒娛樂這一塊所以我這一項寫的是各目的事業主管機關應鼓勵輔導規劃或自行辦理身心障礙者適當的休閒娛樂及文化活動主動檢視且提供身心障礙者合適之活動空間並保障身心障礙者有平等參與活動的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9146.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9168.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
因為當然你們前面很多談的都要合理調整剛才提到後邊甚至我們講說要一年內公佈的這些你們也都納入了我不知道這一點也沒做說明說你不納入的考量是什麼我還是要再次提醒這次對休閒娛樂身上夥伴事實上是非常在意的所以我們才會把它寫在這邊以上好來請陳昭智委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9172.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9191.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
主席也謝謝署長剛剛因為剛開始您開始是提到協商那我們很擔心協商留意形式開過會就等於處理但是現在看到文字上是在舉證責任也入法這個字也入法也謝謝就是我想我那麼表達說我們希望這個至少在條文或立法理由當中能夠清楚確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9192.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9211.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
因為合理調整的這個最重要概念合理調整他不是恩惠他是權利就用這個這個精神去處理那沒有正當理由拒絕合理調整所以依法應該被嚴肅看待那也謝謝這個就將這個衛福部將舉證責任就把他入法謝謝好謝謝請那個郭導管 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9219.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9239.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
主席各位委員各位先進剛剛有主席委員還有一些委員還有人權委員會提到第16條的這個合理調整要不要納入司法禁用我們司法院的意見請委員指教第一個是我們不反對在司法程序上去做合理調整這個我們不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9239.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9268.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那我們最高法院在114年台上至5122號判決中也已經明確指出訴訟程序中沒有做到合理調整是一個程序上的違法事由他把它發回第二審處其注意所以這個在我們這裡我們的程序上的合理調整其實是有法律效果的他構成了所謂的訴訟程序的違法但是我們是希望不要放在16條而是把訴訟程序司法程序的合理調整放到84條 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9270.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9292.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
因為84條是一個身心障礙者禁用司法權的保障他是來自身心障礙者權利公約第13條獨立的那個以平等有效獲得司法保護及訴訟程序參與的一整個脈絡下提一個放在那裡會相對來講配合84條本來的提供無障礙措施跟必要協助會一整套的措施非常的完整這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9293.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9315.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
第二点是如果把合理调整放在16条其实我们司法院会非常非常担心的是因为这个合理调整了伴随了一个协商程序也就是说当身心障碍者提出要协商的时候机关有义务跟他协商可是我们是想说在个案中当一方当事人是身心障碍者他跟法院提出合理调整结果法院要跟他协商 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9315.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9344.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那另外一方當事人他如果不是身心障礙者他可能沒有辦法接受這樣子的程序他會認為說法院怎麼會去跟其中一個人去協商而且我們會認為說到底程序要怎麼調整應該是法官在個案中的訴訟指揮權他有沒有做錯應該要依照訴訟程序法規去救濟例如說像我剛剛提到的判決所以伴隨而來的協商之後的申訴再申訴還是甚至是後面的損害賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9346.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9361.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這些問題都會跟目前的我們訴訟程序的救濟機制不相符合那會造成司法個案的刑事審判權上的困擾甚至申訴或再申訴會引起一個不太好的疑慮就是會不會有行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9362.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9374.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
在個案還沒有確定前有行政權干預個案司法審判的疑慮所以以上我們司法院是建請委員考慮這個合理調整有關司法禁用的事項我們移到84條去做規範以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9379.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9399.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
好 這個國防官建議是在84條來處理那你請國防官這邊是不是可以準備一些資料文字啦 對 對不起 文字來 請署長針對那個林耀勤委員的修正動議所針列的第三項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9399.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9425.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那林委員是建議林委員的提案內容是包括要目的性主管機關要辦理身心障礙者適當的休閒娛樂文化活動而且要檢視身心障礙者合適的活動空間然後確保身心障礙者平等參與活動的權利那這個部分的話因為這個內容的一些文字相對來說跟現行條文第一個是在生權法現行條文的第52條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9427.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9444.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
已经有明定目的是主管机关要协助身心障碍者来参与休闲及文化活动这个部分是在现行的条文52条里面是有相关规定的那第二个是针对活动空间的部分那不管是在本条的是16条第二项 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9444.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9465.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個公共設施場所的營運者要讓身心障礙者公平使用或者是在現行條文的第57條這個公共建築物的或者是相關活動場所它裡面的無障礙的規定都已經有相關的規範所以我們會建議的部分是說如果是涉及到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9468.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9484.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
身心障礙者他的不管是休閒娛樂或者場館的使用的部分那如果是要讓他有參與的機會在現行52條有規定那包括場所要能夠公平的使用可以參考16條那如果場館裡面的設施是不是這個讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9486.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9510.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這相關的公共設施事實上身心上還不方便使用那我們是建議可以回到57條相關的部分它是基本上是一個比較在我們透過各個面向的部分來做一個這個分別來做相關的處理那我們是建議這個部分是不是可以回歸到現有的相關的條文裡面來分別來做相關的處置這是我們大概以上的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9512.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9521.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
好 應該這麼說啦 各位是不是看這個行政單位再提出來一些文字有什麼地方要再徵修的我們拉到最前面好不好來 請王委員那個可不可以請勞動部說明一下我剛剛有特別提到這一個你們雖然有頒訂那個指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9537.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9565.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
但是呢這個有關合理調整你的那個行政指導他其實沒有科與雇主合理調整的義務那所以如果我們16條是照行政院院版的文字的話那你們現在在針對那個合理調整行政指導的部分他也沒有產生任何的效果就跟現行都是一樣的是不是這個勞動部說明一下勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9566.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9568.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
主席 國務委員 大家好剛剛就是王育敏委員所提的就是我們現在確實已經有訂立一個職場合理調整的行政指導這個行政指導基本上其實現在在生權法其實也還沒有修正通過合理調整的部分也還沒有修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9591.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9615.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
等於是說勞動部呢基於這個CRPD然後還有就是說各界的這個期待我們訂了一個這樣行政指導在勞動市場上趕快先行的讓大家認識所謂的合理調整的這個概念還有就是相關的一個行政的一些做法那其實我們這個行政指導確實已經有參考CRPD公約的精神還有收集就是國外的一些相關的一些案例做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9615.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9644.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那未來其實我們當時做這個行政指導也有考量到說行政院版本裡面有提到說未來其實各目的事業主管機關都要訂立相關的行政的指引所以未來我們也會配合如果這樣子條文修正通過的話我們也會配合來做這個整個行政指引的一個訂定所以等於是說現在行政指導確實他其實是在目前在法律上沒有合理調整的規範之下所 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9645.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9656.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
給予勞僱雙方的一個參考的一個指導那未來會再配合指引的這個訂定我們也會再看看就是這個條文裡面比如說這個院版的這個版本有提到就是如果僱主沒有這個依照這個行程這個流程來給予這個協商的這個走這個協商的程序的話會有相關的罰則這個我們都會並同在未來這個行政指引裡面去做來做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9675.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9700.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
以上我要特別指出來的就是身心障礙者他在就業職場上我想他是相對很弱勢我剛剛一開始就舉例了連我們的國營事業台鐵他都可以就是他沒有這個有一個合理的調整然後呢他就直接把他試用期就直接把他fire掉了那在這個情況底下現在的身心障礙者他就只能透過訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9702.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9721.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以即使你現在勞動部你有所謂的行政指導但是你對雇主是沒有任何的約束力然後發生爭議的時候一樣是身心障礙者還是要自行去透過訴訟的方式爭取自己的權益今天衛福部你今天只是要求說你要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9722.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9747.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
召開協商但你沒有去針對那個內容去予以規範就是站在一個權利很不對等的時候協商會議當然可以開啊那開完結果還是一樣啊這樣沒有產生任何實質的效果啊那身心障礙者他一樣要透過訴訟才可以去得到他應有的權益啊那在這方面我覺得政府我們這次這樣的一個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9748.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9763.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
其實是沒有做出任何改變跟你原來的你只是要求他要一個形式上的這個協商會議但是那個協商會議是過水嘛就是開完就算了嘛我覺得對於實質的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9764.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9791.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
坦白講身心障礙者我們鼓勵他自立然後鼓勵他就業所以對於他就業的環境當中像這一種合理調整這個就是基於不歧視然後我們應該要給予他適度的工作權的一個保障這樣但是如果過去都已經有案例發生然後你們現在多了這個行政指導也派不上什麼用處的話那修法現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9792.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9812.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個母法裡面也沒有進一步強制性的規定我只能說有修跟沒修其實一樣沒有增加什麼不是嗎勞動部你有增加什麼嗎因為你已經做出啦你這個行政指導你也早有沒有修法你現在其實也已經有了對不對那這個修法又跟這個又沒有扣緊也沒增加什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9816.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9841.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
請先回應因為委員其實有提到就是說有沒有就是有後續的一些法律效果其實剛剛這個周署長也有提到就是說其實現在確實沒有強制協商因為等於是但是我們當然有一些輔導機制那未來的話他其實就會變成是如果依照行政院版本的話他就會有一個要強制寫就是你一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9841.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9864.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
雇主一定要辦理這樣子的一個協商的程序你沒有辦理協商程序他是有搭配法則的所以確實是有法律強制協商就是說要雇主一定要辦理協商的這樣子的一個法律效率這個或許也可以再請周署長可以再做補充開協商會議我剛是說實務的運作協商會議照開嘛但是結果還是一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9865.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9882.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
就是說在職場上面你要想像一個身心障礙者所有職場裡面可能就是他最特殊他被禁用只有他有這樣一個問題那如果今天僱主不太願意配合他就是做一些適度工作內容的一個合理的調整的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9883.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9905.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那他其實是一個人對整個組織其他同事不會有這樣的問題是他比較會遇到這樣的問題那你現在這個除非你在協商機制裡面譬如說像過去我們在討論這個外送人員專法你的協商機制裡面你要有外面的專家學者你不是隨便開你不是今天那個異樣化葫蘆就是我有招開當事人協商一下不行就算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9906.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9930.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
除非你有個更嚴謹的我覺得這是勞動部你要去思考的不是說我有定有定沒有效就是跟沒有定是一樣的所以我覺得這件事情為什麼我要一再的提出來身心障礙者他的工作權其實是很重要這也是我們鼓勵他自立很重要的一環那如果過去已經有遇到連我們國營事業都做不到的話那你去奢望其他民營企業會做更好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9931.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9942.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以這個部分我希望勞動部其實要花更多的心思喔就是這個完完全全是不只是不起事啊也是某種程度再進一步保障他就業權的問題好 謝謝那個張海請問再換聶業請問沒有啦 他先舉手的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9953.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9971.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我想就是在第16條部分我還是想要再講一次就是對於運動的部分我還是希望可以納入因為他其實雖然我們在第二項裡面其實是有保障到這個設施但是呢坦白說運動這件事情他並不是也只有設施因為管理也是一件事情因為如果說像我們上次遇到那個案例是說如果這個人這是管理員他不是營運者對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9973.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9993.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
他管理員跟他說這裡可能你的輪椅會壓壞這個場地那算不算也是一種歧視呢那我看了其他委員很多的版本也都有把這個運動放進來所以我還是希望在第一項跟第三項裡面都把運動加進來所以這個在我們這個場域上面不管是軟體的硬體的部分都不要去歧視他們都讓我們可以公平的使用謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9997.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10014.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
如果剛剛講的第三項我新增的剛剛講到說第52條第57條有可是這邊講的事實上是歧視那是否如果要把我不要去甄列這一項的話那我認為衛福部可不可以把前面的第一項去加 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10016.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10033.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
休闲及文化因为这个讲的是歧视所以我认为是你在第一项里边身心障碍者人格及合法权益应受尊重及保障对其接受教育考用医疗然后呢顿耗然后休闲及文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10035.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10057.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
再加這幾個字眼 那我就同意把我們第三項拿掉 因為這是本來我們身心障礙夥伴就是很 認為是說今天他要擁有一個平等的權利 那就是不歧視啊所以我當時是會寫第三項也是要考量到這一塊如果說你可以併到第一項 我同意把第三 我整理的第三項拿掉可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10066.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10071.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
文化跟休閒及文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10084.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10096.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
針對聯合協議委員的這個調整第十六項第一項的文字我想文化的部分我們比較沒有我們比較沒有問題啦如果真的要因為他是有主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10097.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10116.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那休閒的話他會跟先前在這個主管機關的部分那會有一個搭配相對應主管機關技術面怎麼樣去釐清他的主管機關的部分那我們是建議如果我剛才連同剛才張雅玲委員有提到的那個運動的部分要納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10118.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10146.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所以我們建議在第一項的部分是不是在最後第一項最後的文字就是這個醫療的前面或者是後面我們甄列文化然後頓號運動我們是不是建議就像這樣的一個文如果是可以的可行的話是不是做這樣子的這樣的一個文字甄列這個以上的建議第52條當然這涉及到各目的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10146.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10169.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
可是一直以來對於休閒這一塊他們本來休閒娛樂他們就是覺得非常的弱甚至他們很難有所謂的平等的權利所以那時候這樣子大概就延伸歧視的一個意味嘛所以才會希望放在這邊那否則的話如果這樣的話我覺得如果你擔心的是各目的事業主管機關那我就保持我原來的就是競爭第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10191.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10195.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
如果不行的話 我覺得這條 我的意見就是先行保留 以上來 請張委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10206.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10222.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那不好意思我也就是第三項的地方我也是希望可以把運動放進去啦因為我們剛剛只有講到第一項那謝謝謝謝衛福部的支持但是第三項我也認為也應該要一併的把它放進去是不是這個地方也是可以放進去呢第三項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10229.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10255.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
運動的部分如果 那如何調整 未來那個有可能會需要有運動部來訂定相關的指引那我不知道運動部這邊就未來訂定指引是不是可能是不是徵詢一下運動部的意見來 副市長運動部報告 針對第16條新增運動以及後續訂定指引的部分 我們運動部後續會來辦理 以上說明好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10258.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10267.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以是第三項要增加運動喔你們沒有意見喔 OK好然後林業勤委員剛剛是講到休閒 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10282.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10303.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
來 盧縣委公職人員選舉罷免能不能改成政治參與不然很像政治參與的涵蓋面比較大因為如果公投的話應該也是屬於選舉罷免這個部分選舉沒有包括在這裡面政治參與要改成怎樣政治參與公職人員選舉與罷免改為政治參與來 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10314.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10322.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我自己是研究政治學政治參與基本上事實上是一個非常不明他是一個政治學概念他不是法律概念我要我必須要說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10323.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10345.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
他是一個政治參與的形式太多了那這個在另一個法律裡面我覺得這恐怕有執行上的疑慮啦我必須要強調那這邊公職人員選舉罷免這是一個非常非常明確的就是voting的一個行為那我是覺得政治參與我身為一個政治學教授我是覺得恐怕會有困難謝謝好來請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10351.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10374.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
主席在院版的第16條第一項的部分那個我想剛剛那個廖教委有提過但是我再確認一次就是不得有最後一行不得有歧視頓耗騷擾頓耗與拒絕拒絕合理調整之對待就不得就是請加入這幾個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10376.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10393.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
他不得有歧視騷擾或拒絕合理調整之對待這樣子請問這邊有問題嗎我們剛剛已經把合理調整大概做了一些很具體的溝通把文字再加在這第一項有沒有問題這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10396.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10410.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
署長應該沒有困難吧那個跟委員報告如果是把拒絕合理調整當作是歧視的話那在這邊的話其實會跟現在行政院把設計後面的條文他大概結構上會 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10411.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10427.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
但是連接上面現在會有一點複雜所以這樣讓他們能夠安心嘛因為你既然覺得他有包含那既然有包含我們再強化一次而且今天這個就是合理調整今天是我們的重心嘛把這幾個字放進去也無礙啊這個應該不會改變或影響你們剛剛我們剛剛做的任何討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10437.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10457.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
跟委員報告有困難嗎放這幾個字進去確實在執行上面會有會複雜很多因為現在在整個行政院版的整個合理調整的架構的設計我們是希望透過義務人和身心障礙者中間的一個協商程序去找到一個調整的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10459.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10480.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
但是這個合理的因為它的樣態非常的多元剛才也有非常多的委員希望能夠擴大合理調整的這個事項的範圍 種類所以它的內容到底什麼樣的程度達到所謂的合理調整它系諸於義務人和身心障礙者中間協商的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10481.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10501.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那如果协商不成的时候那才会发这个如果协商拒绝协商我们现在会设计一个罚则那如果协商不成的时候他会需要后回到这个指引的内容去评估他是不是有 署长歧视也很多样态啊就是您的说法很难说服 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10502.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10517.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
其實也很多樣態啊直接啊間接啊這裡既然我們大家都基本上都同意就是說合理調整是一個非常重要的一個概念那你寫在這裡我不知道會為什麼會造成困擾啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10520.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10539.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我不明白因為在後面的條文裡面就是如果是他是這個拒絕合理這邊跟委員報告就是我們當時在設計的時候就是希望國內先把這樣一個合理調整這樣的觀念能夠逐步導進到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10541.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10559.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
社会里面来但是在这样这个过程里面的时候到底他的这个如果是放在第一项他会有对第一个是他会有对应的处罚的罚则那处罚的罚则它的构成要件是拒绝合理调整的时候但是合理的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10560.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10581.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我们现在是透过指引去让国内逐步的来去引导国内去慢慢去发展出来放在第一项并不是我们刚刚强调因为您把举证这件事举证责任已经列进去那我们都同意举证责任就不落在就是落在这个不是落在身上的这一方您既然同意说拒绝合理逃犯就是歧视 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10582.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10603.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我還是沒辦法了解 那我請次長回答 次長為什麼我們不能把這個不得有歧視 遁號騷擾遁號拒絕合理調整的權利我們為什麼不能修正成這個樣子的文字呢為什麼不行呢為什麼不能加入拒絕合理調整之對待呢這也是一個聲明跟主張啊這不妨礙你們後面的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10609.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10619.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
不管是處罰或是做法的這個條文啊次長署長不敢答應次長可以決定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10631.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10656.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
確實是CRPD裡面基本精神可是我也要強調CRPD他的這個國際審查裡面他有特別強調他是一個普世的一個憲章那各國還是要根據他自己本身的內部情況來做自行的調整這是第一個重點喔聯合國他們那邊在制定的時候聯合國那邊的整個高專他們那邊特別就office就有這樣的claim第一點另外第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10657.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10678.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我當然都知道委員還有大家我們都希望能夠把身心障礙CRP的經濟全面來貫徹但是我也要提醒合理調整這是一個非常進步的概念大家也要考量台灣社會我們現在任何的權力引進一定會有成本的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10679.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10701.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個成本包括企業包括教育機構還有包括我們現在目前在學習一個learning一個新的一個程序所以我們在這邊才定一個就是說這裡面我們會來用兩年時間大家是不是有一個adaption一個整個適應調整大家要大家總是要多下去好好來了解什麼叫合理調整包括我們的企業改 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10703.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10731.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以我用冷當的時間用那個guideline等等這些來教育大家那我是覺得如果一開始現在馬上你就用punishment那會不會利益良善結果後來反而適得其反這個我們要考量這個實際執行的問題市長你居然說裡面那個內容你們要訂個guideline那不拒絕我講的也是這個名字拒絕合理調整就不得拒絕合理調整那合理調整的內容你自己要去訂個guideline這樣無礙啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10731.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10752.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我看不出有什麼 報告委員我們現在目前的我們現在目前的執行有兩個一個叫soft一個叫軟性法一個叫硬性法那我們現在目前我簡單來講就是說我們現在目前兩年的這個soft law的意思就是說我們會用這一個所謂的協商程序大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10754.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10766.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們如果企業改我們也來教育大家說我們有身心障礙的朋友我們要有一個所謂職務上面我是六條記憶就會提到這一點怎麼教育員工的概念所以我們現在目前是不是我們先有兩天的時間大家社會大家共同來學習你下次修法不知道什麼時候你這次你這次既然大家都公立政事就是這個歧視問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10780.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10791.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
大家都會來共同來合作嘛但是我現在必須要強調一點就是說有很多進步的觀念 進步的法律我們現在要固定要來執行的時候才是要考慮說社會還有最重要的也要企圖改因為有些事我們也要教育一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10799.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10825.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你現在這樣 像這樣下去會不會吃緊都不安這大家要考慮這個問題既然你有歧視字眼然後大家又公認說這個不得這個拒絕不得拒絕合理調整這樣的一個對待就是歧視的一種那這個就是我們這次立法的重中之重這個字眼不能放進去我還是不解 不解不過我想還是請這個主席來做才是好了因為還是 包委員都按照你現在目前這個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10826.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10843.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們不希望它只是一個抽象概念而已定到法律就要具體的權利義務關係所以這裡面你現在定下來之後接下來就會有罰則問題歧視基本上也是個抽象概念就看你怎麼去定義很多事情騷擾也是啊我就不知道拒絕不得拒絕合理調整之對待有什麼問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10849.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10860.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
就是一開始開宗明義在第四、六條就等於開宗明義把它講清楚了我還是不理解就是次長或署長說出的困難問題在哪裡剛才跟委員報告的就是我們現在是設計有一個讓國內來做一個適應的期間那第十六條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10871.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10897.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
本身它如果这个部分它现在的条文它就是有罚则的所以十万到五十万的罚则所以它如果照现在的以现在的行政院版的条文的结构我们把这个拒绝合理调整放进去的时候其实第一项和第三项中间在适用上未来会有一些冲突因为它会变成这个中间国内的适应期 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10898.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10915.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
可能会变得好像就不见了因为他只要一拒绝的时候他就会直接要走到去做处罚那我们现在在这个设计的结构上面我们是希望说他透过第三项第三项指引跟第四项的这个做相关的合理调整的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10916.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10941.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
让引导国内的相关的不管是身心障碍的团体或者是相关应该适用的义务的公司行号公司力机构能够在运用这样的时间把这样的一个合理调整的做法能够一步一步的去发展出来那这样的一个条文其实在行政院版提出来之前其实也跟国内的相关的身心障碍团体有征询过相关的意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10942.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10951.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
因為交委也希望能夠盡快把這些條文審完的一個美意跟善意因為身上的期待非常久了主席不好意思那我主張保留就聽您的採釋謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10955.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10978.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
沒關係 那也是要大家有公事的這個法案的修正才可以符合我們生意戰爭權益的保障的提升那有時候陳氏你總算要說話了 謝謝你是 那個跟主席跟委員報告剛剛看到那個舉證責任的問題那我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10980.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11006.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
仔細再思考一下想說以法務部的立場提個意見請大家參考一下因為我們理解那個身心障礙者在主張歧視的時候是往往會面臨這個舉證不義的實務困境那相關的保障制度的確是有檢討精進的空間但是就那個法治體系而言如果我們現在是我剛看那個他們你的法條採取似乎是採取全面由被指控人負為歧視的舉證責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11008.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11033.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那這樣的一個規定可能會跟我們現在既有的訴訟制度跟程序正義原則有所抵觸因為我們現在的法律我們的民事行政訴訟原則都是大家也知道都是採主張有利適時的要負舉證責任那如果是現在我們因為這個身份的屬性要全面的導致舉證責任這會是一個高度的例外制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11033.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11060.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那我們應該是要有明確的正當性跟配套而且這樣的一個狀況有可能會侵害程序公平跟防禦權因為這跟推定有罪的疑慮跟正當法律程序原則跟我們現在是不太一樣那我們現在看一下我們現行的那個反歧視立法的模式我們現行法在那個性別平等還有就業歧視相關法是我們有採取但是是不是採取全面無條件的導致的模式是採取一個階段式的舉證責任的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11062.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11080.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以我們比較支持而且比較符合我們現在體系的一個調整就是是不是可以調整那個法條就是在當事人已經提出足以推認歧視的具體事實後使由相對人就其行為具有正當理由或非屬歧視負說明或舉證責任這樣子會不會比較符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11084.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11107.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
比例原則跟我們現在既有的立法技術比較有一致那就是有一個初步事實然後再合理推定再由相對的人來說明反正這樣避免我們那個法制會斷裂那也可以兼顧身障者的權益保障跟程序公平那以上是請委員們參考以上好 謝謝因為你是針對我剛剛的說法回應的這是一個舉證責任的導致你怕全面性 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11122.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11134.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
你是現在看著是螢幕上的法條嗎對不對修過的法條嘛對不對剛剛有提供他們有提供的法條在上面我剛看到是不是有在這次是這個嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11140.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11159.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
對因為這個條文看起來是全面的導致那其實我們現行的法制其實有類似的那我們是分階段的就不是全面的導致這樣可能會讓各個行政機關將來面臨這樣的問題會舉證上會很有困難而且也不太符合比例原則跟我們的體系請委員們參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11170.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11186.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
好 沒關係啦 我們這一條就先保留了好不好這個部分文字我們再請行政機關跟法務部再做一個更精準的一個文字的提供在第二輪的時候我們再提出來再討論好 這一條就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11187.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11208.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那也請行政機關針對保留的理由是什麼到時候做一個回應現在針對民眾黨團提出來第18條還有國議請委員 林月琴委員 吳立華委員還有新疆18還有修正動議是第19案是委員獨先所提的請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11214.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11231.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
有關各委員所提的第18條的修正草案的部分行政院現行的條文主要是希望提供一個機關間的協力做相關資料的提前性的一個預防的宣導的時候能夠有一些資料的交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11232.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11250.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那各位委員的提辦的版本大概都會有這個針對不管像民眾黨黨團有提到這個有些特殊需有些和吳立華委員都提到是不是有特殊需求的兒少那有些有些委員的版本是提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11252.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11268.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
主管機關的部分要做一些這個主管機關要做社會福利主管機關要申列一些資料然後另外對於戶政主管機關的通報的內容以及原住民事務主管機關在申列相關要通報的一些資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11269.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11287.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那這個部分的話我們的總體的我們總體評估是考慮到這些各個委員所提到的有一些大概都是從事前的預防的關聯度來看的時候有一些大概是已經事後已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11287.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11305.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
有些是在現有的資訊已經是身心障礙者那麼在事後已經在管理上面已經可以納入的那我們建議在這個條文就比較不需要再額外去把它納進來那第二個是如果是主管機關如果有關像像林月琴委員所提提案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11305.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11333.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
有關身心障礙的人格維護身心安全保護有關保護案件的資訊的部分因為我們主要是希望是能夠及早提供身心障礙相關的服務那這個和原來條文訂定的原來的這個立法的目的是有一些需求上面有一些不同的地方那我們是建議像這兩個部分我們是建議或許大概比較不需要去在條文裡面拉進來然後另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11334.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11349.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
民眾黨黨團和吳立華委員所建議的是不是在特殊需求的兒少需要納進來的部分主要是發展因為我們現在已經把發展使喚已經納進來了那但是特殊需求的部分他到底是不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11351.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11372.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
是不是有跟身心障礙的關聯性的部分我們這個相對來說比較不是那麼的明確但是如果說他是屬於藻寮或者是屬於原來就已經有相關主要藻寮需求的部分大概就已經進來的話那麼特殊需求有一些已經是涵蓋在藻寮的裡面發展遲緩的裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11374.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11381.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以我們是建議這個部分文字似乎是可以建議都可以先不增添建議可以維持現行的條文以上謝謝主席因為我們民眾黨有提一個16條之一我相信這個部分應該是比較沒有困難我特別想要提到就是辦理員工障礙平權教育訓練以促進職場的融合這一點我們從過去的經驗看來有很多合理調整之所以推動困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11402.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11425.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
並不是因為單位不願意配合而是第一線人員其實他不知道什麼叫合理調整怎麼做才不會出錯所以我們提出員工障礙障礙平權教育訓練想法是需要能夠把這個合理調整從一個法律的一個責任或義務轉化成組織內部可以實際運作的方式讓同仁有基本的理解跟敏感度說不定這樣可以反而減少這個衝突跟誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11427.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11448.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那這種訓練他不一定要高強度或增加很多負擔可以透過你現在既有的這個教育訓練體系或線上課程方式那重點就是要建立一個比較友善不怕出錯的一個職場環境這是16條之一那我等下請就是請署長或次長是不是因為這個是應該沒有困難的部分是不是把它加在裡面謝謝盧縣議委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11453.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11480.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
謝謝召委那針對第18條就是我們是支持民眾黨新版新增原住民主事務主管機關那這邊要說明就是有關原住民的身障只到大概有兩個身份就是他是原住民然後又是障礙者所以就遇到的實際問題主要是福利身份還是被侷限完全無法因為現況或需求脫鉤舉例來說原住民有醫療交通不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11481.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11501.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
障礙者有復康巴士但從原鄉部落到醫院這段復康巴士的費用還是會比都市的費用高這是顯而易見但這時候如果原住民障礙者如果想使用原住民的醫療交通補助卻無法使用因為重複的問題因為政府會認為你已經使用了復康巴士三份享有三分之一的優惠價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11502.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11529.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
就不应该使用医疗交通补助所以举这个例子来看就是说是身份断裂的一个政策同样的当福利身份有交织身份的情况发生的时候也会面临无法申请相关涉宅津贴等生活不利处境的状况所以应该针对特定族群有两个以上社会服务需求的时候国家应该要有家权上的支持而不是只能选这一方以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11531.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11554.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好 謝謝 王玉敏委員基本上我贊成魯憲一委員剛剛提到的在民眾黨版本有特別針對原住民事務主管機關也納進來我想這個是我們特別重視原住民朋友的一些需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11554.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11579.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那另外就是在原來行政院版本裡面你們在這個衛生主管機關你們用異常兒童資訊異常兒童我覺得應該要修正吧就是委員提出來版本是用特殊需求兒童資訊你們怎麼會用異常兩個字在在這個條文裡面應該特殊需求可能委員的修正會比你們原來的版本更好以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11587.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11608.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
請問有沒有什麼要再回應的還是要依照民眾黨團的版本跟各位報告這個在這條本身的立法的目的他其實是希望是在比較早期這個有些尤其是有一些民眾他還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11609.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11630.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
不一定有身心障礙身份的情況之下我們透過一些通報或者是資料交換的機制能夠去掌握所以這個各位可以看到現行的條文大概前面有幾款包括教育勞工或者是警政他都是這些包括疑似身障或者職業傷害或者交通事故 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11630.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11648.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
因為這些可能是潛在或者是黑數就是還沒有來申請的他是還沒有達到還沒有被納到體系來服務的個案我們希望去能夠把它納進來所以這條原來的原先的立法目的是從發掘個案的角度來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11649.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11665.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那所以有關像委員這邊所提到的有一些如果已經是取得身份後面的服務和權益保障的部分那和這條的本身大概設計的架構上面就會有一些不太一樣的地方所以我們建議他就不一定需要納進來那包括像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11669.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11688.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
例如說像教師身份如果他已經是身心障礙者的話那像盧委員這邊所提到的這一類有教師身份的部分的處理的話我們是建議這個部分或許我們可以考慮用一個附帶決議的方式就是如果是身心障礙者他同時有其他的福利身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11688.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11708.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
或者有其他的弱勢的處境的話那我們是不是要求直轄市縣市主管機關能夠去就他的服務資源去做一個相關的整合來提供給他服務但是這個部分就也許就不放在條文裡面因為他這個條文本身要去處理一個比較事前去發掘個案的一個機制稍微有些不太一樣的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11709.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11733.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那第二個是現行條文第一款的部分因為有還是有一個異常兒童這個文字上面可能是有一些比較不妥當的地方那我們是建議說如果委員是覺得我們也可以尊重委員剛才提到的部分如果這樣的話或許是我們就把這個或異常這幾個字我們就直接把它刪除掉因為這個樣子比較不會有一個這種比較負面的印象 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11734.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11761.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
大概以上那另外針對這個剛才陳昭志委員有提到民眾黨黨團版的16條之一的部分訓練的部分這個概念我們是非常支持的我們現在在這個行政院的我們原來對於這個部分委員有各個委員大概對於身心障礙者的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11761.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11786.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
不管是對於合理調整或者等等相關的條文有多個委員現在都在擺在第39條之一有訂定相關的平權的訓練那如果可行的話我們建議是不是在那個條文我們一併來處理那基本上在態度上我們是會接納這個條這樣訓練平權訓練的文字概念上我們是會接受的以上說明來 陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11791.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11811.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
謝謝主席就是說署長您說就是會不在這16條之一但是是在其他的地方多個委員是用提案提在39條之一有相關的平權的訓練那我們也可以把那個相關的文字等一下提供給委員我們來做一個對照看文字上怎麼做處理那署長那第18條其實本來是民眾黨來提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11812.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11829.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
因為現在如果在通報資料階段就能夠看見這些交資的身份因為現在很多是就限制其一那這個交資身份後續的服務連結跟資源配置如果說這個時候就知道的話你才能更精準所以我們才增加了原住民事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11830.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11851.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
主管機關希望讓現有的通報跟服務系統能夠更貼近原住民身心障礙者的實際處境如果你這條不動我想請問署長那社家署這裡有沒有辦法整合這些資料方法你們現行的做法是什麼就是說這個就是相隔被切割的一些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11857.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11869.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
跟委員報告現在原住民的部分如果他是因為這邊委員那個黨團的建議條文是涵蓋要涵蓋原住民族別及身心障礙類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11871.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11893.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
但是因為我們這個原來是希望是從事前去發掘潛在的身心障礙者把他納進服務體系所以這個部分如果是身心障礙不管是不是原住民的部分他如果是被我們發掘進來在納入系統服務的時候他是不是具有原住民身分這個部分服務我們本來就會把他這個就身分別的部分我們都會納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11895.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11913.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以這個如果真這個部分我們因為而且這個部分他同時也會跟在相關的公務統計裡面現行大概都有在做相關的處理所以這個部分跟以上跟委員做相關的報告這樣的資訊其實不管列不列進條文他是他不會被遺漏我這樣資訊也會列不遺漏那一樣啊我就說那你就把它列進去啊你 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11924.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11945.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
就把它列進因為這個也是這個身障者這個原住民身分他們非常期待的部分也是過去他們面臨的一個我們增加一個類別我們並沒有問題不過可能原民會原民會這邊我們可能需要確認一下因為他這邊是不是有身心障礙類別有沒有相關的資料我們收不會我們比較沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11946.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11969.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
因為擴大一些潛在的需要服務的民眾我們沒有問題那可能看一下原民會這邊如果他要提供有沒有什麼需要考慮的地方那個據了解那個微服部現在對原住民的那個部分統計的部分只有六項連就業都沒有你們現在的現行制度事實上是有破口的有不足之處啊那趁這個時候趁這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11973.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12001.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
把這一條納進來 有困難嗎對你們的困難是什麼來 顏銘慧 洪副處長謝謝委員那有關委員這邊所提到的第18條陣列就是原住民組事務機關的這個部分的話我這邊來做一個補充說明那對委員就是這樣的提案能夠讓進行比較適切的識別跟資源整合的修法目的 本會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12003.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12023.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
競表尊重但就是說因為各部會在蒐集個人資料的時候其實是依照個人資料保護法還有就是各機關的一個作用法那有關原住民身份的統計的部分按照戶籍法跟原住民身份法跟原住民民主別認定辦法的規定那相關的統計資料都是戶政機關這邊在去做資料的蒐整 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12030.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12052.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那按照那個生長法的第三條的第八款有關生長者部分的那個統計的資料也是衛福部這邊再去做蒐證所以那在機關之間有關於就是資料交換的話基本上都是一定是為了保護各自所以都是以無識別化的那個資訊的統計的方式來去做交換所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12053.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12071.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
如果說這個部分在第六款那個部分要加上是原住民族事務主管機關要去提供包含護身機關或者是衛生主管機關這邊本來就有收整的資料再去彙整的話可能在相關法令上的那個會有一些困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12074.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12081.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
目前食物上的狀況我們也看到在本法第11條的部分衛福部這邊也有定期做生長者的統計資料的資訊這部分也都包含到原住民的身份還有就是就學就業的狀況還有各項醫療資源的運用狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12095.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12121.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
在目前食物上的運作狀況跟考量到法令的規定我們認為就是說原住民主事務機關建議就是參照院版的規定不予整理以上來補充好請王知青委員好有關於第18條岳勤委員他其實有在第一項的第一款有做一個新增他的新增最重要的用意是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12124.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12151.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
針對社會福利的部分是要有相對應的主管機關那我們知道在中央雖然是衛生福利部可是在地方的部分其實有一些是有社會局那有一些是衛生局那有一些是合併在一起所以如果未來在這個地方主管機關要建立通報系統的話萬一漏掉這個社會福利主管機關有關於身心障礙者人格維護及人身安全保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12151.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12166.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
案件的資訊有需要在這邊陣列的時候也麻煩能夠列入考量那如果有無法陣列的部分的話也麻煩署長或者市長這邊再多做說明以上好 那請盧縣立委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12170.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12199.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
是要強調一下為什麼要有原名會來做主管機關的原因就是面對這些不同身份交織我們期待主管機關可以做更多可以做更好這就需要我們主管機關做詳實的調查統計雖然現在衛福部已經有原住民身心障礙者人數按等級及類別來原住民身份障礙者按類別跟縣市別原住民身心障礙者按年齡跟類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12199.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12214.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
原住民身心障礙則按人數障礙及成因及類別原住民身心障礙人數按年齡及縣市別原住民子女身心障礙類別學生統計全國原住民族身心障礙公務人員等七種統計數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12218.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12243.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
不過我們還是需要什麼呢就是社會經濟與健康資源使用資料家庭與社會支持現況就業與失業文化及地區與族群特性統計才能夠做出更多更多的交叉面向包括性別年齡族群地區的分析資料這就是我們需要有人民會來作為主管機關的原因謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12245.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12254.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好 那請書長這邊再做回應 好不好謝謝 那麼看怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12256.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12282.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個原住民事務主管機關的部分那對由於這個後續是紫霞市縣市主管機關通常大概都在社會局處來做那能夠有更充分的資料或者更明確的資料收進來其實我們基本上我們都持正面的態度所以這個各委員的提案的部分那像林月琴委員是提到有關人格維護者安全保護案件的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12283.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12306.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
因為現在實務上就是大概都本身就在社會局就是自己在局裡面局裡面給局裡面自己其實我們只是覺得法治上好像不一定要寫但是如果真的要列進來操作上並沒有問題然後第二個就是有多位委員的版本提到就是我們現行的文字現行條文的文字異常兒童的部分這個確實是有不妥當的地方那是不是改成特殊需求這個部分我們也都尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12307.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12326.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
最後一個就是有關原住民族事務的部分有一些資料其實因為在戶政機關那邊本來就會有提供過來但是如果說會不會將來處理上面只要我們能夠有更進一步的幫助態度上我們大概都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12326.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12340.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那基本上前面五款我們大概都前面幾款我們都尊重沒有問題那第六款那原住民的部分是不是要納進來可能因為剛才原民會這邊剛才有提供一個意見那就可能我們尊重委員這邊討論的結果以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12343.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12363.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
主席 我就請說衛福部如果說支持的話那園民會應該不會有特別意見嗎我舉個例子因為這個增長者大概在全國佔率大概5%那我們相信原住民沒有理由或是說是特別低的但是據我們了解現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12365.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12391.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
他們大概因為各種的障礙包括醫療資源 地理文化資源可敬性事實上才不到一半百分之二到三是這個我們了解他可能是屬於身障者所以明顯的就是說這件事情跟他們的特殊性這個就是原住民他的所面臨的環境的特殊性跟資源特殊性是有困難的那剛剛既然署長說你們是表示支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12393.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12396.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
原民會納入主管機關有問題嗎原民會原民會在今天出席你們有困難嗎跟委員報告剛剛那個署長這邊有特別就去說明就是說因為相關的資料個人資料的那個蒐集的部分在 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12415.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12427.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
對機關的要求還有就是說資料的保護上當然是以最直接能夠提供資料的行政機關來去做提供是最適切啦那我剛也講過就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12429.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12452.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
像在過去在實務上的運作的那個過程當中因為本來就是社府跟戶政機關有依照他們的那個相關的作用法規的規定有去蒐集這些資料的一個權限然後那在資料在利用上的時候也會透過包含就學就業狀況也都會一併都會納進去這些資料的統計的那個資訊都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12457.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12484.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
都會給我們這邊去做 園民會這邊去做參考然後去做施政上的關於職群上的一些規劃所以我們是希望就是說還是能夠就是說在原住民族事務主管機關的這個部分因為相關的資料真的就不是在我們這邊來去做蒐集所以我們還是建議就是說就比較目前院版的那個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12486.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12507.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
來去做來去做那個來去做修法以上說明不好意思您剛剛說我要提到就業跟訓練原住民這邊完全沒有喔完全那如果社家屬支持那社家屬這邊有沒有整合這方法這個資料提交原民會這樣子總是要有人來做這件事吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12509.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12523.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
其實衛福部都有做甚至他們也有公佈在他們的網頁上包含就剛剛講的對 它就只有七項教育的狀況我剛剛舉例就業就訓練就沒有婚姻的狀況第二個那個百分比很奇怪所以我是那個統計資料建議就是它低於全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12525.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12539.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
是我是建議就是說如果說假設對於各種資料的那個統計的那個覺得太少的話我是反而是建議應該是在第11條的那個部分就 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12539.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12567.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
就各種的那個可能要蒐集的資料在這個部分去做規範包含就是剛剛已經提到的各項別障礙程度還有保健醫療特殊教育就業訓練交通跟福利這些都放在第11條這邊有去規範的話那未來就是衛福部在做那個相關資料的統計的話就自然會被包含結論就是園民會不想碰囉不是我剛你要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12569.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12589.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
不是委員 我只是就是說資料的取得的那個部分跟剛剛署長也這邊有特別說明這部分主要是希望能夠行政機關來去做協力所以我這部分就做以上的補充 謝謝好 請芋苗完之後再往政修委 好不好好 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12589.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12615.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
有關於這個原住民組事務主管機關其實剛剛衛福部這個署長已經講了嘛原來社政的部分他也願意再放進來那原住民組主管機關這邊剛剛其實縣議委員也都有提到事實上原住民朋友有一些他有一些特殊性那你們剛剛不是說前端這個就是要在潛在的這種身心障礙人口你們希望可以進一步掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12615.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12642.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以如果按照這樣的一個從一個比較預防然後前面的就是說去發掘潛在的他可能是身心障礙者然後轉介過來然後我們可以找一點掌握那多增加一個原住民事務主管機關我覺得是合理的因為每一次我們都可以看到原住民委員都是特別提出來說原住民朋友的確有他的特殊性存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12642.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12668.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以多一個單位他可以去進到他去去通報然後進一步去提供服務跟轉介我真的聽不出來這個到底是有什麼什麼自愛難行之處因為如果是站在這一個法條特別是想要提前去發掘一些潛在的身心障礙者讓我們主管機關可以提供服務的話那我覺得就是應該要擴大好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12672.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12689.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
謝謝主席 我想第18條剛剛署長的說明意思就是針對於月群委員所希望能夠在第一項第一款政令社會福利主管機關的部分是同意的先這邊謝謝我們這個主管機關這方面的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12689.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12704.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那其實他在第一項的第六款有關於戶政主管機關那邊也希望不只是針對戶政主管機關針對人口異動有所統計資訊以外也希望能夠把這個監護跟輔助案件也都能夠納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12706.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12721.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
能夠讓整體的這個處理會更完整所以這邊也期待能夠有好的方式讓這個附中主管機關的相關的權責可以更完整以上 謝謝好 請黃熊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12725.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12752.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好謝謝主席那我剛剛看了這個民眾黨的這個提案就是說那個原住民主事務主管機關那因為在地方政府有的地方政府沒有原民局就是社會處那其實我覺得把它寫得更清楚沒什麼不好那是不是說請社家屬跟這個原住民委員會這邊是不是可以再溝通其實我覺得寫得更清楚沒有什麼不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12756.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12772.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好沒有人反對然後王志軍委員也幫李業勤委員的主張都放進來了嘛對不對各位看這文字我們當然修法還是以委員的共識為原則啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12775.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12800.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
看各位針對這個條文有沒有其他意見來 請官司序委員 那個第6款有關於戶政的部分 OK好 現在放進來 謝謝可以嗎 可以 同意 沒問題沒問題 OK好 那我們第18條要不要先宣讀一次來 宣讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12805.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12827.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我們宣讀一下第18條自家式縣市主管機關應建立通報系統並由下列各級相關目的事業主管機關負責匯送資訊以掌握身心障礙者之情況適時提供服務或轉介一 社會福利主管機關身心障礙者人格維護及人身安全保護案件資訊二 衛生主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12829.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12852.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
疑似身心障礙者發展遲緩或特殊需求之兒童資訊3教育主管機關疑似身心障礙者學生資訊4勞工主管機關職業傷害資訊5警政主管機關交通事故資訊6戶政主管機關身心障礙者人口異動資訊及監護輔助案件資訊7援助民族事務主管機關援助民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12854.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12876.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
原住民民族別及身心障礙類別等交資身份資統計資訊直轄市縣市主管機關受理通報後應即進行初步需求評估並於30日內主動提供協助服務或轉介相關目的事業主管機關好 各位委員針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12878.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12897.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
條文的文字有沒有其他意見那如果沒有我們就依照臺灣民眾黨提案及林運勤委員的提案修正通過好謝謝那我現在處理開會時間因為我們有聽導員還有首席議員還是要休息給大家用餐然後徵詢各位委員的意見要休息到 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12898.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12915.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
什麼時候 請王振興委員提出專業的建議謝謝主席這麼互愛我們所有的這邊參與的所有同仁我的建議是休息到兩點不知道有沒有同樣的好 各位休息到兩點可不可以他們都不回答 可能顯然不是可以所以休息到一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12927.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12954.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
網友建議休息到2點 各位有沒有意見他們還是不回答 那我們休息到12點半主席才是1點嘛 對不對沒有 你剛剛是說2點 他們都不回答說1點他也不回答 說12點半也不回答我也不曉得他們到底要怎麼辦2點啦 好 我們就休息到2點我這邊提醒行政單位一下你們看現有條文 現行條文52條 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12958.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12982.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
52條請次長還有書長看一下我念一下有時候你們在講說沒有主管機關但是現行條文裡面已經有這些事情了各級及各目的事業主管機關應辦理下的服務以及協助身心障礙者參與社會第一休閒及文化活動休閒及文化活動是現行條文第二體育活動第三公共資訊無障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12986.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13015.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
第四公平之政治參與第七輔助科技設備及服務請次長跟署長看一下有時候在法條審查過程裡面有些委員還是依照我們現行條的相關的一些一些用詞譴制所以有時候我們要去講說沒有主管機關很奇怪因為現行條裡面就有了有這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13017.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13030.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
文化休閒先提醒行政機關對這事情的一個等一下主條討論的時候要做比較妥善的一個回應好 謝謝我們現在休息下午兩點開會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13039.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13040.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14098.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14099.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
19803.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
19825.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
好 我們下午繼續開會現在處理第二十條有台灣民眾黨團所提還有郭怡情委員 李月琴委員 換雲委員還有修正動議第十二案劉建國委員所提的修正動議請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
19832.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
19850.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
有關第20條的部分有幾位委員的版本大概都是針對聲音障礙輔具的部分這個部分的話我們有大概綜合了由於行政院的部分是沒有提案我們綜合了委員的各個版本的提案我們把文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
19851.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
19876.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
來去做了一個整理因為輔具這個內容委員所提案包括了有需要做將來除了現在在使用端以外也包括了有關跟產業比較有關係的像進出口貿易等等的事項我們這個部分的話我們來就綜合了委員的建議的文字我們有提供一個建議的文字版本我們現在有擺在 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
19877.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
19901.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
剛剛有投影出來請各位委員參閱我們支部是建議第一項的部分文字來做一個調整就是為提升身心障礙者生活品質促進輔具資源整合研究發展及服務中央主管機關應整合各目的事業主管機關推動辦理身心障礙輔具資源整合研究發展及服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
19903.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
19918.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
輔導進出口貿易租賃服務模式等相關事宜那第二項的話就維持現行條文那另外這個委員的版本裡面范雲范委員的部分他有提有增訂一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
19919.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
19937.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
跟郭玉琴郭委員的版本裡面有徵訂對於輔具福利服務的政策需要做一個不同年一定期間要做一次檢討而且其中有規定身心障礙者的比例的部分那由於輔具的針對民眾使用端的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
19937.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
19963.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我們現在是已經在這個本法的71條已經有相關輔具針對身心障礙者使用輔具的規定那所以我們會建議在這個部分的話如果可以的話我們是不是在第71條的部分我們到時候用一個附帶決議的方式來做處理那這個附帶決議的文字我們大概也跟提案的范雲范委員初步有做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
19965.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
19969.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我們也會再跟委員來這邊做一個報告來徵詢委員的意見以上來 請陳教授委員謝謝主席我們這一條民眾黨的版本是希望能夠補充一個更前端的思考方法因為這個伏計不是只有醫療器材對很多身心障礙者朋友來說它直接關係到日常生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
19989.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
20010.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
致力能力跟社會的參與所以我們提出的方向是包括跨部會的這個輔具資源整合研究發展以及在補助政策中納入保養跟維修的考量那在補助的設計上也希望未來能夠逐步考量不同年齡性別生活型態跟族群文化的差異讓輔具能夠真正符合使用者的生活需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
20011.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
20020.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
不是一張這個固定的這個補助清單就是請這個署長就稍微瞭解一下我們的重點在這個地方謝謝還有其他委員嗎陳清惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
20027.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
20048.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
剛剛關羽有提到說在附帶決議的時候他們會加上一些更細節部分那因為現在很多輔具他也已經結合AI等等所以他可能除了維修他也需要做一些升級等等這個看你附帶決議是不是也要把他納入進去比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
20051.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
20066.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
視力障礙者他可能就他用的輔具就會大量需要AI的融入這些的那你什麼時候會有這個附帶決議的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
20068.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
20096.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
目前的話我們會擺在跟委員報告我們會擺在71條的部分因為71條是專門規定輔具那同時也輔具的補助那這個尤其是這個像剛才陳昭志參委員那邊有民眾黨的提案裡面也有提到這個輔具的服務裡面他包括了輔具服務的項目或者是後面的處理的細節等等包括保養維修等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
20096.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
20123.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那這個部分的話因為這個部分的話在現在我們的條文在這個依照第51條在身心障礙者在本法的51條這個有關輔具服務的部分他是已經有授權定在我們的一個個人照顧服務辦法裡面他的細節的操作那我們現在對於輔具服務的項目補助的額度 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
20124.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
20140.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
等等的增減在這個辦法裡面目前都有一個規定那同時對於這個怎麼樣去檢討哪些項目可以納進來我們也在去年我們剛剛訂了一個相關的機制那陳委員這邊所提到的就是有關未來這個升級的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
20141.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
20169.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
因為他會涉及到這個這個品項是不是由因為升級的關係他到底是不是可以維持原來的品項維持原來的補助價格那這個將來在補助的機制裡面我們現在都已經有相關的規範那我們也可以在我們可以進一步的來在這個這個預計在50條跟71條的這個負債決議裡面我們可以來拿進來我們試試看在文字上面來做一個處理以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
20173.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
20190.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那寧月請回好 針對第二十條也感謝我們的衛福部把我的意見都納入只有一個小小的想就叫就是後面有寫的是 輔居生活化且可即刻禁這個沒有的考慮是什麼 以上來 黃志旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
20200.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
20214.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
謝謝主席其實這49條我本身是沒有提案相對不過我幫這個幻雲也確認一下 幻雲其實是在第二項裡面希望三年檢討一次嘛 那剛剛署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
20215.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
20236.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
也有說在相關的辦法裡面現在是多少年檢討是本來就三年嘛是所以他是說如果能夠具體入法當然是相對是比較好如果說本人都已經有規範的話我想我是認為這樣是可以符合現有的規範以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
20239.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
20257.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
跟各位委員報告那個有關連會請委員提到的這個輔具的可敬可及性的部分因為我們是我們主要是這個文字方向上我們也是贊成的那只是說因為這邊可敬可及性大概是比較偏向身心障礙者使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
20257.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
20276.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那20條大概規範的是輔具總體的這個像產業啊或者等等的一個規範所以我們會建議是這個可敬可擊性這樣的一個概念是不是也許在71條的部分我們把這個部分在附帶決議台一起做一個處理那那個有關黃俊俊委員所提到的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
20277.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
20301.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
現在的輔具的檢討的頻率目前也是三年一次不過也跟委員報告因為這個制度我們是從去年剛剛把這樣一個輔具檢討的這樣一個制度去年剛剛建立起來所以我們預計是我們預計三年來做一次所以這個部分的話我們現在也確實回應范雲委員的提案我們有我們準備去提一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
20303.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
20329.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我們會建議這個部分是不是因為我們制度現在已經有一個規定剛剛上路那如果要去做檢討的話我們是建議我們也這個因為是使用考慮到他也是一樣給身心障礙者民眾來使用所以我們也是在71條的這個附帶決議裡面目前我們會有一個建議的文字那只是說這個三年的部分我們是建議是不是可以用訂我們會初步規劃用定期檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
20330.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
20341.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
來做處理讓我們先試辦一輪之後我們來看看總體的執行的成效因為這個是從去年我們剛剛開始上路的一個做法以上跟委員報告 謝謝這個我補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
20360.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
20388.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
因為我也有修正東西啊對啊跟換言也提的是一樣在第二項裡面嘛一年三年每三年嘛 檢討一次那剛剛署長你的答覆是是是一個一個剛開始沒多久的一個處理方式嘛對不對齁那這個可以來來在家裡討論不過我們這邊因為這種這種虎巨的相關的服務政策三年檢討一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
20389.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
20409.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
你們的這個檢討的參與的人是指誰你們有相關的辦法去規範嗎沒有目前的檢討機制上我們會大概包含跟委員報告這個我們現在的規定的內容是大概在檢討的內容的參與者我們會包含三個主要的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
20410.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
20431.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
一個就是當然是身心障礙這些使用者那第二個是有關提供輔具的這些供應者輔具的團體就做輔具的供應端那第三個就是這個比較屬於中間的包括像學者專家這個第三方從第三方客觀我們大概分成這三個主要的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
20431.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
20460.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
所以目前我們所研擬的這個71條的附帶決議那我們建議初步建議的文字也是會邀請建議是能夠邀請身心障礙者身心障礙者的團體這個是使用端然後第二個是學者專家來共同研議那其中呢有關身心障礙者的部分的話因為是三種類別的人員所以我們初步建議的人員的比例是不少於三分之一這個是我們大概我們目前初步研擬的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
20461.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
20490.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那這個比例看各位委員的這個這個提案的文字或者是修正動員文字稍微有一點點不一樣但是我們是考慮到就是由使用者提供者跟這個現在這個這個的組成還沒有相關的一些辦法去規劃嗎我們現在是已經有規定但是他並不是辦法所以有一個行政的規定對啊是你們行政規定現在已經有而且已經公告了你們什麼時候要調都可以調嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
20493.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
20516.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
所以你現在要在七十一條裡面來來處理的時候然後附帶在決議裡面是不是這樣做附帶決議是這樣嗎現在這一條不處理這個比例啦這邊不處理比例七十一條的附帶決議我們目前建議的比例是身心障礙者的部分不少於三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
20518.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
20541.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我們這邊期待的是不少於二分之一啦因為沒有他們的參與不要去幫人家做決定嘛因為是他們在使用啦所以那個負債局域七十一條我可以接受啦在那邊做負債局域不過可能要一個辦法要定定辦法不是行政規定啦好不好然後二分之一吵像這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
20543.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
20562.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們那個決議的內容我們整個在檢討在71條部分我們看看再修修看我們到時候再跟委員這邊來做一個報告你現在答應我當然20條就照這樣你們的建議修正這樣通過你沒有答應我就要保留了因為確實是這個因為服務的對因為輔具的服務的部分這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
20564.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
20588.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
怎麼樣去提供身心障礙者一個合適的輔具這個其實提供者端其實它是相對的重要那跟外部的評估單位所以我們當時想法是就是三分之一就是三種角色的人員所以我們才會做這樣的一個建議提供者端當然是非常重要那使用者端就不重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
20589.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
20611.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
就是因為這三方都一樣重要所以我們就是三分之一啦所以才會做這樣的一個思考初步做這樣的一個那當然就是能不能夠再提高是不是容我們這個我們再評估一下看看我們把那個最後那個附帶決議建議的文字我們稍晚我們再提供給相關的幾位委員然後來過目 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
20614.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
20641.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
20條那我們就照林業勤委員所提的修正案通過你們有再修正這個再修正的文字剛才一開始有選讀現在有投影在上面是不是就是可以照我們建議修正的文字來做通過以上那就依照一樣是依照林業勤委員所提然後行政院再建立修正通過是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
20645.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
20660.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
你願請委員 提案行政院有建議這個條文的文字的修正來做通過 來通過 可以吧應該是這樣嘛 好 謝謝可以啦喔 還是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
20678.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
20681.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
沒有參與等會 你們看什麼要主持一下我看你們價值很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
20685.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
20713.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
但是你這個內容跟民眾黨團也差不多吧有沒有什麼很大的落差還是落差蠻大的民眾黨團的部分原則上是大概考慮到的幾個幾個點我們大概都有整理進來那民眾黨團黨團的文字的話這個保養維修的部分的話如同剛才有提跟委員報告就是現行的話我們在依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
20715.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
20738.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
本法第51條授權訂定的個人照顧服務辦法的87條到90條這個部分我們都已經有相對應的一些規定所以這個部分我們都會這個條文建議的文字我們現行已經有規定可以來做相關的處理那第三項有關補助政策或者是補助項目補助金額的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
20739.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
20756.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那就是如同剛才跟委員報告的我們在去年上路的那個制度裡面那包括輔具補助項目等等細節那個我們大概會每三年來做一次定期的檢討那因為這是剛上路是不是我們建議可以先不要在條文裡面直接寫到三年給我們建議的一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
20759.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
20787.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
附帶決議的文字是給我們用一個定期檢討先不要直接把三年那麼這個很具體的寫進來我們在我們這個我們已經做的這個去年剛剛開始推動這個制度裡面我們那個規定裡面目前是確實是寫三年公文報告我們確實是寫三年那只不過因為是第一次來操作那是不是給我們一點這個空間來評估一下這個三年我們是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
20788.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
20800.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
運作的是不是順暢給我們行政部門一點點空間謝謝先相信署長你說了算數言出必行謝謝署長說話算數這條剛剛就已經宣告過了我們繼續審查院版21條第21條然後有委員羅廷偉羅美玲 劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
20814.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
20839.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
蔡衣瑜那郭益勤委員是21跟21至1還有委員何清純廖偉祥林月琴范雲蘇巧慧吳立華王玉銘盧憲一萬美玲李坤誠還有縣請挑判還有修正動議是第19案這個委員盧憲利所提的修正動議好請我們邊來討論請行政機關來做對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
20843.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
20846.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
修正動議的第一案也是盧縣議委 沒有錯請行政機關來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
20851.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
20877.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
行政院版的21條原來我們是只有文字的修正對於授權的事項能夠做更完整的規定那各個委員的版本的部分那大概主要整理起來有包括三個主要的面向那涉及到包括本部的新建師要是不是增加心理健康促進的部分是不是要增加條文的規範那以及針對在原住民族這個醫療資源不足的地方是不是有相關的要求以及對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
20879.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
20893.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
民眾的救醫的身心障礙者的救醫的部分是不是有更無障礙的一些設計涉及到本部的醫事師那這個部分的話是不是容許由我們本部相關的單位來做一個說明以上好來請盧縣立委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
20895.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
20920.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
謝謝召委那我的本席提議就是修正第一項後段因為許多原住民身障者居住在交通不便的山區外出就醫困難為修法強制主管機關提供巡迴醫療與遠距醫療並要求與中央人民會合作應能直接解決原鄉身障者有病難醫有復健難做的困境以落實健康平權 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
20921.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
20948.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
另外針對廖偉祥委員他給我的那個就是他的版本就是說他的第一項規劃兩個字英語三處不能永遠只有規劃他說重點應該在於實施原條本也是寫規劃但這一條已經實施快20年障礙者連產檢都充滿障礙包括輪椅使用者都無法上產台以及沒有點子板的先生兒手冊等等都是問題所以小孩出生之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
20950.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
20956.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
障礙者爸媽要如何照顧小孩等等21條第一項的規劃讓這一條希望讓這一條成為劇文就把那個規劃刪掉謝謝來請陳清惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
20967.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
20986.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這邊我們是代表我們國民黨的羅天惠委員還有王韻明委員還有廖偉祥委員一起跟盧憲憶委員希望衛福部可以說一下因為對於20幾年前的版本跟現在版本其實你們修改的差距沒有很多那呼應盧憲憶委員的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
20989.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
21017.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
是不是考慮把規劃刪除因為以前我們是剛在起步所以你會提到規劃那現在其實你就是實施並且去整合所有的醫療資源這個應該是您這一條的重點那當然我們這邊所有的委員都認為在目前這樣子的世界就目前的健康狀態啦就是在兩公約意見的第54到56條還有CRPD第27到28條都一直提及 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
21018.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
21042.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
全民的心理健康是健康權很重要的一個部分所以才會在裡面納入促進人民心理健康預防治療精神疾病這些很多委員的版本是蠻類似的但是都是支持還有協助病人在社區平等生活那這邊的話就希望行政單位看可不可以盡量納入我們這五位委員的意見謝謝 謝謝來兩位委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
21048.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
21056.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
意見請署長這邊答覆 回應好 可以了 要請哪位 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
21058.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
21084.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
市長市長好了不然你來都沒有講話主席委員那有關那個心理健康這部分的話因為我們在精神衛生法都已經有規範了但是我們原來的條文裡面其實健康應該是包含身心健康所以如果說有關心理健康這部分我們如果要把它寫得清楚一點的話是可以把它用身心健康把它明確指出來這樣但是可能條文不用做太大範圍的這個徵修以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
21089.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
21097.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
好還有誰要補充嗎還是直接要從現在螢幕上的這個條紋去做做微調好 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
21101.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
21127.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
委員針對有委員有提案針對我看到是盧憲憶委員這邊有針對21條第一項是希望針對原住民族地區及醫療資源不足地區要做這個所謂的這個在到宅巡迴還有復健遠居醫療這部分那因為其實醫療資源不足地區現在目前來講在 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
21128.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
21133.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
在不同的目的上面會有不同的定義所以我們會認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
21135.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
21164.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
如果因為原住民族地區可能相對清楚他的定義範圍因為這在原住民族委員會他有定義那我們想要是說如果是大家比較關心的是原住民族地區的部分那是不是醫療資源不足的地區不用特別去講或者是說他要有一個比較明確定義我們才會比較好知道這是第一個部分那第二個其實不管是巡迴醫療或者是載載或者是做遠距那目前來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
21166.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
21180.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
法規上面是可行的而且現在也都在推動所以想也就想說因為都目前在推動那是不是還要在條文上面去敘述這些文字以上那個盧委員李檢任基政這樣回應好那就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
21198.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
21221.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
照行政院對就一線行政院版本處理謝謝好啦齁可以啦齁好那我們就依照行政院的提案來通過好謝謝對不起他剛剛是說要加成身心健康我有問各位的意見不能說身心健康那部分是可以用字上可以用字上他要修改那邊對看要修哪邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
21229.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
21257.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
就第一項是身心健康現在是身心健康那您可不可以請您也稍微解釋一下就剛剛我們講到兩位委員都有講到這是20多年前你們會用規劃這兩個字因為那個時候我們才剛起步那你們現在還是要加入這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
21262.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
21264.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
整合實施還是你們就應整合醫療資源這樣就可以了吧可以吧應該可以啦可以啦規劃拿掉可以吧可以啦好那就依照行政院的提案修正通過好謝謝繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
21292.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
21302.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
委員羅廷維22條 委員郭玉琴22條還有廖偉祥 林月琴 范語雲還有縣情條文 一樣並要來討論請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
21313.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
21327.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
第22條的部分行政院是沒有提案修正的版本那針對各委員的部分那主要的提案的內容包括有幾位委員有提到的就是這個協助身心障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
21330.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
21348.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個對象的部分是不是包括除了現行規定的身心障礙福利機構之外要不要增列社區心理衛生中心提供的保健醫療服務第一個是服務提供端增加社區心理衛生中心那第二個是服務的樣態的部分除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
21349.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
21374.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
提除了相關提供針對身心障礙者個別需求提供保健醫療那是不是要增也有委員提案是不是要增列有關陪同就醫或者是也有這個有到載服務服務到載及外出醫療大概就是在服務的樣態上面能夠有更多元那這個部分的話也是涉及到本部的有關新建師和 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
21375.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
21395.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
144的相關的業務是不是可以容我們請相關的業務單位來做一個說明那請市長主席委員跟大家說明那目前社區因為之前是沒有佈建那目前全國已經佈建到71處那實際上也在執行這個業務所以如果把它納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
21397.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
21421.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
條文中我想是沒有問題就加入這個集社區心理衛生中心以上 謝謝你要從哪邊加 對不起在22條的身心障礙福利機構集社區心理衛生中心就加入這個集你要依誰的加入 依委員的版本廖委員 廖委長委員好那余簡正 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
21425.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
21441.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
意思是有要補充嗎主席針對那個郭委員的版本或者是林委員的版本有提到所謂的到宅或外出就醫因為外出就醫本來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
21443.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
21472.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
外出救救本來就是民眾的權利我本來就有病我就會到醫療機構就是要外出外出救醫或外出醫療那如果說是在講的這邊是在講的是提是指醫療端要提供那醫療端提供的本來就是到宅那這個宅當然不限於家包含他有一些其他的一些場所他也是可以所以我們是覺得說這是第一個文字上面的一個疑慮第二個是到宅醫療就剛好成儒講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
21472.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
21487.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
其實目前來講各醫療機構都有在提供到宅醫療那這個也是在健保有給付的範圍內所以我們會認為說就可以以現行的這個廖委員的這個文字來做處理就可以 以上好來 林瑞琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
21491.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
21512.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我這邊來寫的就是要依身心障礙者個別需求來提供我們的保健醫療可是更重要的大概就是陪同就醫啦我不知道醫師是那邊回答的我覺得這個服務應該不是醫師要來做因為你們就在醫療端那個可能這服務應該會事實上是我們的衛福部要來做因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
21512.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
21531.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
有些他真的就是沒有辦法如果他單獨自己在居住的時候我覺得這事實上是政府可以扛起來的責任所以我們為什麼會去加這否則他就出不了門啊他也沒辦法沒辦法能夠去就醫啊所以我們才會想說這項服務是不是可以列進來就是陪同就醫以上陪同就醫來還有其他委員嗎國情委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
21540.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
21564.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
我想我這一條的這個最後就是就是說所需之保健醫療服務並提供服務到宅及外出醫療其實這個方向應該就是跟月前委員的講的是一樣的意思就是說他如果是到院但是他也是需要被服務的或是他也是需要被輔助的那這個是這個是我最主要的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
21566.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
21579.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個部分就是要確保身心障礙者他們沒有辦法平凡的這個外出但是在這個部分把它寫進去是服務他到醫療院所這樣子的一個寫法好 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
21582.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
21603.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
主席我這邊補充一下就是剛才林委員有提到說陪同就醫那就我們知道是現在在長照部分如果他有符合定義其實我們本來的照服員就可以做協同陪同就醫的概念來去做處理所以這個文字上面我現在只是擔心說因為這是克與縣市政府衛生單位的一個責任那 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
21604.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
21629.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
因為現在長照的這一塊在地方政府其實有可能來自社會局有可能來自於衛生單位這其實就機關類別上面可能不是很一致那目前這個在符合私能的長照的部分也已經放入了那是不是可以照 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
21631.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
21636.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
現行的這文字來做處理而不要加入陪同就醫這四個字以上他只有針對你對 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
21645.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
21647.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
對的確長照事實上是有陪同就醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
21663.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
21685.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那因為我說這邊要依身心障礙者個別需求如果他不到那個失能等級的那狀況裡邊可是有些真的事實上他還是需要有人力來做協助的時候會變成就是沒有辦法加上事實上身心障礙者夥伴們都反映給我們說長照的陪同就醫非常不好用 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
21686.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
21701.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那當然我就不知道說那個不好用使得他們就醫事實上是就沒有辦法順利就醫這是一個另外一件事只是我說今天要考慮的是今天如果沒有到達那個適能等級可是他還是有需求的時候那再以 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
21702.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
21722.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
CRPD的精神你來看的話不是應該是說你因為他個別狀況而提供也不是每一個都有需要嘛所以這邊就已經法案已經有明定說因為他的個別需求來提供這樣兩個服務以上所以我還是認為說應該要有這一項列入在法條裡面以上好 那郭靖維 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
21727.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
21754.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
因為我這個最後的那個部分就是並提供服務到宅及外出醫療那其實還是要把那個服務外出醫療其實這個意思是一樣的就是說服務到宅以及服務外出醫療所以我的意思是這個部分就是還是協助他們外出醫療的這個字句那我想如果說這個部分可以採納的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
21761.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
21781.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
好 以上那要不要再回應其實各地方各企業政府應該是朝夕有或多或少在做不過那個陪同就醫是屬於長照範疇對不對 然後那個提供服務外出就醫那個早就已經有在做了啦 對啦所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
21783.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
21790.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
所以把他嚇到也沒什麼差啦你們看那個文藝是覺得還OK啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
21803.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
21820.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
第一個他本來就有需求在因為我說我們看過身上伙伴都一直在反映這一項就像我早上為什麼這麼堅持那個休閒娛樂也就是他們這次在修法的重點裡面有幾項是我認為也應該政府要去回應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
21822.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
21845.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那所以我們才希望說那這是不是因為我說剛才也講說你看長照就已經有那也表示事實上本來就有只是說我說有些不到達市長的時候那個也不會增加更多額外的而且這是各級衛生主管機關要配合嘛那也表示說如果中央有那地方他到時候不執行常常就中央跟地方都有很大的落差所以我覺得明定法裡面的話就會變成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
21846.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
21866.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
地方一定要執行那才有一個有所依據因為過去我們自己在民間的時候常常就聽到政府講說依法行事如果沒有法的話那就不用沒辦法依法行事那今天我覺得列入到這幾個字也不是太大困難我說原本也在長照這邊已經有在做了所以我認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
21868.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
21890.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
加進去也表示政府對於身心障礙者就醫有去考慮到他如果人力沒辦法來做支應的時候可是他有就醫需求的時候政府是會協助的以上他這個是這樣長照有在推是因為長照2.0把它列為葫蘆項目之一經費來源是來自長照的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
21894.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
21919.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
這個各級政府我們法律也要訂了他如果不照這樣做其實你也沒他的皮條啦他不會說所以是這個樣子那是有層次上的落差啦因為我們醫療地方來講是沒有什麼陪同就醫的這種的政策不過外出醫療就可能有復康巴士等等的實際上已經行之有年的一個作為啦所以應該是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
21920.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
21933.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
意思是那個履歷檢證才會這樣建立請王委員對 其實剛剛謝謝主席我想主管機關他們比較擔心的就是寫各級衛生主管機關一開頭是這樣寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
21935.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
21958.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那如果說後續的服務內容假設是社會局在處理的話那到時候會不會有處理上的落差所以假設要把這個弄得更完整一點變成說各級衛生社會福利主管機關會更完整啊因為他他就不會是只有所謂的衛生主管機關而已那就是在不同的這個各級的政府以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
21959.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
21978.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
不是 這個跟王委員報告 這個就是台灣到目前為止還是很多很奇怪的制度嘛中央就是衛福部 地方還搞一個社會處 一個衛生局如果醫療100%在地方一定是衛生局啦 醫療啦所以現在這一個條文大家強調的全部都是醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
21980.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
21999.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那他一定是衛生局不可能是衛生社福機構那基本上那地方就要成立衛福局還是衛福處然後就可以直接對接我們的衛生福利部不然是有問題的啦就我的理解是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
22007.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
22020.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那如果稍微這樣講事實上是體力上因為這邊是衛生主管機關因為的確陪同就醫事實上是在長照也事實上是設陣的一環那就要問我們再回來問衛福部因為我覺得陪同就醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
22020.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
22037.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
至於如果事實上身心障礙夥伴已經反映這事實上是有需求在有沒有哪些條文事實上是在規範設正的時候把這個放進去那這個我們也同意可是現在如果要把這些拿掉的話那陪同就醫這一塊又是他們需求那怎麼去滿足以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
22039.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
22052.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
來 我建議先保留然後就請我們這個長照司對不起 社家署跟醫事司然後針對三個委員的這樣的建議是不是可以融為一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
22053.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
22080.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
好不好就依照你們信息條文來講其實基本上基本上是把他把自己的東西可以可加進去來做處理應該就不能加在私底下再講一下 溝通一下嘛好我們先保留謝謝那繼續審查委員羅廷偉台灣民眾黨團23條啦對不起 郭益勤委員還有廖偉祥委員還有林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
22081.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
22093.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
吳立華委員 現行調案23條那修正動議有劉建國委員的12案還有林月琴委員的第16案好 請刑事單位做說明先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
22099.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
22117.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
第二十三條的部分行政院是沒有提案修正的版本那針對就各委員的提案的部分那簡單的說明那有關羅廷惠委員廖偉祥委員有提案的建議把社區醫療資源轉介服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
22118.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
22143.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那進來的部分那我們是建議這個我們是建議這個部分似乎是可以因為他已經含他已經有現行的條文在社區裡面這個醫療的部分他本來就是已經有一個相關自然的轉介跟相關的處理那我們是其中在文字上面社區醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
22145.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
22166.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
附件跟社區支持資源轉介它和社區醫療資源轉介其實這個文字上面似乎是有一些有一些這個看起來是有一些重複的地方那我們是建議似乎是可以不一定需要增訂因為概念上本來就已經有涵蓋在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
22167.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
22189.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
另外第二個是針對民眾黨黨團針對在第一項的部分文字有擴張到相關的一些相關的服務包括無障礙就醫這個要增加無障礙的就醫環境等等細部的事項那這個部分的話目前的話本部的話在可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
22190.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
22217.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
後面可以由我們的144做一些說明目前有幾個相關的一些補助的計畫那就醫療的內容的更友善的做法目前都有一些相關的推動的機制那是不是還是有在法律上面去增進的必要那其他各委員的包括民眾黨黨團范雲委員我們召委以及吳立華委員等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
22218.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
22231.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
在這個服務裡面有要增設個人協助服務和同儕支持服務的部分這個我們現在在這個個人的服務裡面大概都在第50條 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
22234.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
22256.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
针对身心障碍者的个人的服务里面现在都已经有大概都已经有纳到不管是有的是列在法律条文有的是列在法律授权的个人照顾服务办法里面那所以我们是建议这个部分是不是大概都已经可以涵挂到如果他要去医疗机构的相关的服务的时候一定的程度大概都可以处理到 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
22256.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
22275.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那我們是所以我們綜合建議是不是這個等一下請我們除了請我們業務單位補充之外那我們是建議其他部分是不是可以暫時先不用增訂 以上報告好 謝謝要先讓他還是陳委員你要先講看好 議事室先 議事室先回應再請委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
22279.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
22296.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
主席還有委員好那針對23條第一項的部分目前民眾黨團的部分是增加了把無障礙就醫環境的內容把它寫在第一項的後面就中後段的部分來去做陳述那因為考量目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
22297.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
22312.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
陳儒就是我們現在就就醫無障礙的部分我們其實有透過第一個本身在硬體的部分建築法規本來就有規定醫院要有無障礙的設施包含他有些出入口啦一些走道寬道這個到底要如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
22312.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
22338.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那這是第一個部分那第一個部分其實就軟體的部分目前來講在評鑑或者是我們的醫療機構設置標準那甚至我們還有在透過這個獎勵計畫來輔導這個醫院來去做設置那因此為了整個彈性上面也讓醫療機構特別是醫院的部分能夠完善他的就醫無障礙是不是可以把包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
22339.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
22362.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
後面那一些文字可以不要在法條上面去做名列而是把它變成是提供無障礙的就醫環境那因為這樣子的文字會讓整個在執行面上面包含就是委員所希望我們醫院來去處理的部分或者是在文字上沒有寫但是都可以透過我們的不管是計劃還是評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
22363.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
22383.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
來去做處理的部分可以更完善所以我們會建議那個文字上面可以把它做一些省略那第二個部分就是有關出院準備服務計畫的部分那因為醫院在做出院準備服務計畫他在處理的通常都是建議事項或者是提供資源的概念那這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
22384.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
22401.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
武力化委員這邊有提到說需要增加的是個人協助服務或者同台支持服務那就我們所知是因為不管是個人協助或者同台支持服務他其實不是透過給予資源的概念來去處理而是他甚至要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
22402.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
22426.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
而前置的一個協談的一個作業才能夠完成符合這身心障礙者所需要的個人協助或者是同儕支持那因此我們會覺得在目前的一個執行面上面直接把它放在出院準備服務計劃沒有辦法達成它的目的性所以會希望說這部分第9款跟第10款的部分可以免列 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
22428.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
22457.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那另外因為劉委員這邊也有提出來這個附帶決議的部分這23條提出附帶決議是希望說我們有些把這些包含這個自立生活的資源能夠把它做建置然後請我們院來提供那這個附帶決議的部分我們就會遵照這個委員的這個指示來去做處理所以是不是可以透過附帶決議的方式來去作業文字上面跟委員講附帶決議我們有些文字做小休我們也會另外再跟提供謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
22458.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
22481.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
好謝謝來請陳教授委員謝謝主席這一條剛剛就是就衛福部相關單位他們提出來是我們是強調這個整個無障礙以就醫的部分無障礙就醫環境的範疇我們把它做了明確化所以你可以看到我們也是很用心出入洞洩來儀器設備整療台後整來病房空間包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
22483.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
22488.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
沐浴 沐浴庫設施等等我們把它盡量就是能夠完善這個醫療可及性跟平等就醫的這個權利我算一算其實才多了大概五六十個字左右大概如果這第一個然後第二個出院準備計畫我們這是根據CRPD精神那剛剛醫事師回答說是好像是五委員就不止 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
22507.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
22523.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
現在是昭緯的民眾黨版本之外劉昭緯的版本范雲的版本范雲委員的版本還有郭怡情委員的版本裡面其實都提到了這兩項因為這本來就是條列式的那因為這個是身障者他們非常重視的有個人協助的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
22524.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
22541.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
服務 同儕支持的這個服務這兩項是他們當事人非常重視的部分那既然就是很多委員們都列了好多條已經列了第九條 第十條那這兩條又是多數委員我們把這個人數加起來多數委員希望能夠放在裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
22541.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
22566.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那這個幫助他們更加能夠更快適應出院後的生活提升障礙者的生活功能跟社會參與所以還是請這個行政相關機構能夠考慮第一個就是就醫環境的這個範疇明確化第二個出院準備再更加的這個完整謝謝好 謝謝郭委員請郭怡情委員謝謝陳委員請郭怡情委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
22568.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
22595.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好这一条其实因为我们过去的法规是要求这个设置服务的窗口但是我在这一条呢有特别在涵盖他整个就医过程当中的一些动线设备跟这个空间的一个部分那包含其实刚刚这个陈委员他们也有特别提到其实他们的这个版本其实跟我的有点雷同那我是明确的 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
22596.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
22613.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
就是將那個無障礙的就醫的環境比較具體化那也把這個出院的準備納入個人協助跟同儕的一個支持當中因為其實我們也要考慮到就是當他們就醫完住院完之後回歸到這個社區的一個連續的照護不要被中斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
22614.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
22632.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那就是確保這個整個制度不要流於形式啦所以我是在這一條當中23條的當中其實我的版本是比較具象比較具體的一個把它名列出來了那等一下大家可以討論看看好 以上好 謝謝再請陳情委委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
22633.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
22647.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
看了一下幾乎所有委員的版本目標都還蠻一致的所以大家會擔心就是出院之後的準備不管是社區醫療還有附件的資源需要必須要借接原本的社區服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
22649.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
22676.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
來以利這些身心障礙病人回到社區需要的各種支持比如說自立生活中心協作會所長照服務怕他們不容易Reach到這些資源並不像可能現在非身心障礙者的病人他回到社區比較容易Reach所以大家的目標應該是想要確認這條可以讓他們可以獲得好的出院後的準備還有照護 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
22677.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
22705.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
是好那請汪志旭委員剛剛市長那邊有做說明有關於很多委員都希望在第二項的後面再加上第九款就是個人協助服務跟第十款同儕協助支持服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
22705.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
22731.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那我們也看到前面的這些準備計劃事實上都是以建議為主所以如果能夠把這個第九款變成個人協助服務建議第四款同儕支持服務建議這樣的話就比較不會造成說那我出院準備是不是就是一定要把這個所謂的個人協助服務變成他必要的處理模式所以如果能夠把這個建議兩個字再分別加上去的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
22732.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
22756.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
希望能夠讓這個出院準備計畫可以更為周全 以上好 王委員這樣建議請行政單位做回應我們就來處理可以吧可以喔就多了建議 後面建議 加建議合資 應該意義就不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
22763.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
22764.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
增加那兩款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
22780.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
22806.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
跟各位委員報告我們原來的考量是我們原來是先建議說各位委員所建議的增列的第九款個人協助服務和第十款同儕支持服務建議是不納入那主要的考量是說因為在現行條文第六款轉嫌服務的部分因為這一條主要是針對出院準備計畫那已經裡面就有包含一個轉嫌服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
22806.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
22822.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那這個轉弦服務裡面如果未來身心障礙者他是有需要要用到不管是個人協助或者是同儕支持那因為現在的第50條裡面對於個人的支持的部分現在就已經寫在裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
22822.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
22845.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
所以就是他本來就是可以透過轉嫌服務去把這個放到這個出院準備計畫裡面去所以我們原來是建議這個部分是不是有可能不用增訂相關的文字這個是大概我們這個我們的初步的建議以上好所以23條就不予採納委員提案不予採納委員請現行條文對不對是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
22849.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
22877.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
可以吧好維持先行條文因為剛剛書長有講在51條嘛就有處理到了對不對好OK對50跟51嘛好可以喔好好那我們就維持先行條文繼續審查呃臺灣民眾黨第25條委員郭玉琴還有幻語雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
22878.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
22880.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
吳麗華跟縣委條文我們變成來討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
22888.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
22914.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
第25條的部分行政院是沒有提出修正的提案那針對各委員所提案的部分那主要都是針對就醫的可進性跟方便性所提出的包括的甚至是有一些交通或者是針對偏遠地區的服務的一些加強那這個部分的話是不是由我們本部的醫事室來做一些說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
22915.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
22940.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
好請余簡正目前有關身心障礙的這個就醫的這部分其實本來第一個以現行的這個條文就有訂定講注的辦法那委員這邊是把具體的內容寫在 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
22942.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
22956.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
條文裡面那我們會認為說其實在原本的授權的辦法裡面委員希望能夠也許是增加因為我們現在的這個獎勵辦法的內容是不是已經都涵蓋委員的內容這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
22958.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
22974.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
可能沒有完全涵蓋那如果需要的話是不是可以透過現行的這個二項的部分這個所謂的這個獎勵辦法這服務的這個內容這邊去把它具象化在這個授權法規來去做處理而不需要在條文上面去名列 以上好請陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
22978.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
23007.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我想目前就是有的相關的一個規範是完整的不過在實務上這個身心障礙者最常接觸的其實是社區型的診所還有巡迴醫療車來即是偏鄉與部落地區的醫療服務他們接觸很多的這個部分那這個場域未必是能夠直接適用這些場域都未必能夠直接適用大型公共建築的一些無障礙標準也比較容易成為這個制度上落差的地方所以我只是想請問這個衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
23009.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
23021.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個相關的精神可以透過通用設計的條文或輔導計畫或行政指引來落實嗎因為他們真正最常接觸的其實是在另外一個領域 好 謝謝好 再請郭情委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
23025.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
23052.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
好這25條其實我最主要的還是希望說把他寫進去是因為我們比較在意的是避免這個偏鄉或者是部落因為資源有限被排除啦那不管是明定這個巡迴醫療車或者是過期身心障礙者他們的一個需求讓就近就就是能夠就近就醫能夠落實在生活場域中所以我特別做了這樣子的一個就是條文上的修正以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
23053.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
23074.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
好剛剛跟上上上條差不多意思看意思是怎樣主席我們還是認為說在這個獎勵辦法如果內容有不足的部分可以來參採文目前來講所寫的這提出的這個法條文字來去做檢討修正這樣子可能在實務上面會比較可行以上那 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
23082.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
23105.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
提供一個互代決議給提案委員做參考還是怎樣應該是這樣嘛 你的建議是希望就不用在現行條例裡面去做修正嘛 對不對那委員的期待是希望放在這邊嘛那你覺得就相關的這些辦法就應該可以處理嘛那不是一個互代決議給委員做參考我們再決定到底要 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
23107.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
23135.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
從這邊處理還是附帶決議就可以同意這樣好不好好那我們就先行保留給陳昭志委員還有那個郭益勤委員做參考先保留好謝謝好繼續審查新政院所提二十六條那委員有羅美玲 劉建國蔡依瑜 郭益勤 何星淳林悅勤 范雲 蘇巧慧還有吳立華 王玉明 盧憲對不起 萬美玲還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
23136.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
23149.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
李坤誠 憲情條文 我們並在修正動議有 委員劉建國所提的第12案對不起 沒有 就剛剛宣讀那院版 各位委員所提的第26條條文修正草案修正案 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
23153.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
23169.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
請回應是 針對行政院版的第26修正的第26條草案那主要是原來是針對授權事項的明確性的部分我們做了一個文字上去把它補到更明確那各委員的版本中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
23170.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
23189.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
大概都是這也是針對這個針對補助的不管是檢討的頻率或者是在相關補助的一些原則上面有一些這個希望能夠做更具體的規定那因為這個補助辦法的部分目前是由本部的照護師來做相關的規定是不是請我們本部照護師來說明來 副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
23195.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
23222.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
各位那針對26條有關林委員所提的這個版本那主要是希望能夠在第三項有增加這個授權訂定的時候第二項有增加一個兩年營檢討然後在這個後面有訂一些比較細節包括使用產品研發等等那針對范委員提的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
23223.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
23250.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
還希望可盡性跟可負擔性去增列條文我們的意見就是說我們現行的授權規定裡面其實我們都已經這樣在做我們比較建議說其實在行政院版的71條主要是針對生活輔具的部分那個文字其實有相同的一個體力所以是不是考量到一致性我們建議就是維持現在26條行政院版的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
23251.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
23273.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
的這個文字那如果說針對這個定期檢討的部分我們可以在後面26條第二項前項補助對象項目金額跟其他相關事項是辦法由中央主管機關訂定之並定期檢討我們建議做這樣文字的一個修正這樣可能整體的體力不管生活輔具或醫療輔具會比較一致性好 請林議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
23279.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
23294.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
因為第二項為什麼會希望能夠訂定那個明定時間因為這樣才能夠及時因應輔具的市場價格跟技術的變化所以你講定期 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
23295.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
23321.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
可是定期是什麼常常我看政府的定期就不太明確反而也不會知道說到底那個定期如果定期假設事實上是一年那當然會比我這個更好可是我覺得把時間定出來是會比較好另外我們這邊陣列第三項是因為為了回應兩公約的精神讓身心障礙者能夠跟其他人一樣公平享有科技進步的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
23322.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
23343.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
還有修正現行的我們的補助制度跟過度醫療化忽略個別需求的問題所以才會希望你在我的等於是第三項就是我這邊有針對第三項而且未來在訂定跟檢討輔具補助辦法的時候也應該納入使用者跟產業研發醫療跟復健的實務界代表來參與因為我覺得這樣才能確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
23349.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
23361.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
有相關性的人都能夠在這個檢討裡面去給予一些好的意見來確保制度符合實際使用的情境所以我這邊是有陣列第三項的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
23363.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
23386.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
好謝謝還有其他委員請陳菁英委員因為第一項現在各版本都沒有提到比如說保養維修系統更新等等這些文字我是想請問衛福部你們會考慮把這些文字加進去或者是說依照剛剛您回應好像21條還是20條之後會把它列入那個附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
23395.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
23399.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
来 请 赵斯是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
23407.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
23426.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
跟委員報告我們剛才是建議建議是在71條輔具的部分未來有關維修保養的部分可以在那邊處理不過因為71條它主要規範的是偏向生活輔具的部分本條大概處理是比較偏向醫療輔具所以這個在原來立法的部分它是有分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
23427.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
23441.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那我們照護士的建議是說那這個有關醫療輔具的部分那有關定期檢討的部分是可以建議透過有一個建議可以修正文字的方式去處理那是至於那個保養和那個處理的部分我們到時候再因為目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
23449.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
23468.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
這一條就是有訂定授權訂定執法嘛那我們執法裡面可以訂得更細那在這個母法26條第二項這個補助的對象項目金額跟其他事項之後面就有很多可以在辦法裡面去明訂所以我們會建議說在母法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
23468.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
23484.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
包括剛剛范委員的建議還有這個林委員建議是不是我們在執法那邊去做一些落實所以你們之後會把保養維修系統跟什麼去加入執法的文字內是謝謝可以嗎各位委員因為只有你的不一樣所以這邊差不多快一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
23497.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
23511.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
可是執法裏邊否則就要變成是附帶決議說未來執法有考量到我剛才講因為我很重要的就是實用者跟產但你要定在執法後面可是實用者產業研發醫療復健這其他專業團體都要能夠參與進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
23516.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
23533.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
才會中整這所有在這一塊裡面因為醫療費用輔具這些東西都是跟他們事實上是息息相關的我不知道說這可以否則的話我就要放在這邊沒有的話就是放附帶決議我也覺得OK來麥克風給副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
23542.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
23562.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
我們會建議說這部分在委員提到的產業研發等等因為醫療的這個輔具也是日新月異那在這邊寫的文字可能也有一點逐帆不及倍載我們最重視的應該還是在於說補助對象他的項目金額是不是合於現況還有他 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
23564.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
23584.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
是不是補到他該補的部分那這至於使用者產業研發醫療等等要寫的可能要考量的非常多我們在我們在辦法裡面會去考量這個部分所以還是讓我們可不可以在辦法中去明定這些東西會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
23585.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
23598.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
對啊我說同樣只是我說附帶決議要講清楚因為我這邊並沒有說只有單一的只講說使用者產業跟研發跟醫療復健的確未來還有一些搞不好有新興的一些那所以我說其他專業團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
23599.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
23624.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
好那我們就附帶決議在文字裡面去補充說明可以我們就給他通過嘛不可以就不可以嘛好所以第26條我們就依照行政院提案通過謝謝繼續審查台灣民眾黨所提第27條國會請人27條然後還有歡迎委員吳麗華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
23629.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
23646.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
還有 先請條文 我們邊站討論 請行政單位做說明第二十七條部分 行政院並沒有提出並沒有提出修正的動議修正的提案 那主要是針對委員的部分那因為這條是有規範到教育主管機關那是不是可以請教育部來做一個同意的說明 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
23656.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
23667.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
26條是依照行政院所提的條文修正通過來請教育單位來做第27條的回應 說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
23671.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
23687.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
有關於27條的部分有提到個人協助教育輔具應考交通費等等這樣的一個增訂再來就是提到說聲音障礙學生在就學課後跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
23688.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
23713.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
寒暑假辅导的一个交通费用等等那这个有关于交通课后辅导这个费用是属于依照儿少福利与权益保障法的相关规定来办理儿童课后照顾及服务是属于县市职辖市他们的全职又配合才化法收支又配合职辖市 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
23714.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
23738.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
政府收支才化法施行那這些費用是由直轄市縣市政府統籌來做支應的那另外有關於剛才提到的輔具或者是其他的個人協助等等的服務我們在112年特教法進行全面的檢視的時候已經把它很完整的特教法裡面做規劃所以建議維持原條文 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
23744.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
23748.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
來一次三位四位來那個我先看到國務卿委員再換陳昭智委員再換陳經理委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
23753.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
23776.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
好謝謝主席這個第27條我想這個這一條是在既有的一個特殊教育的一個架構之下我要補齊就是實務上最常被發生的這些所謂的這個排除的一個問題那現行的制度雖然已經有保障這個入學權但是學校常常會以所謂的設施不足或者是人力不夠或者是交通困難為理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
23778.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
23799.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
那让这个身心障碍的学生名义上他是可以入学可是实际上他进不来那也有这样子的情况发生所以我在这一条的部分我有特别修正这个明确禁止以未设施未设置这个设施或者是未提供个人协助的这个理由作为拒绝的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
23800.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
23823.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那並將這個無障礙的一個交通課後跟就是寒暑假的一個輔導那校外教學的支持一併入法那要確保就是身心障礙者的學生他們在學習的部分不中斷那這個其實不是在加重學校的負擔只是讓我們的這個受教權不是只有存在在課表上所以我特別有做這樣子一個修正好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
23824.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
23846.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
好 這是萬老師的花言 請各位特別重視一下好 接下來請陳昭志委員謝謝主席 您剛剛教育部在回應的時候好像重點都放在經費那事實上我想接著第27條其實第28條也是相關的就是請教育部協助釐清一些疑問因為我們看到一些案例是身心障礙學生為了找到比較合適的教育資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
23846.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
23875.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
他必須跨縣市就是跨遠離戶籍地就學長期通勤或寄宿那這樣對學生跟家庭都是不小的負擔所以有幾個這個問題就想了解教育部有沒有就這個以下做一些系統性的盤點或去了解或調查首先就是是不是有掌握到底有多少身心障礙的學生他需要跨縣市就學那障礙的類型和主要原因是什麼這是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
23875.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
23895.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
這些學生是不是因為原本居住的特教資源知識符合無障礙條件不足所以他才會被迫外地就學那再來對確實需要跨區就學學生現行的交通住宿跟生活知識上的配套是否足夠存在哪些困難那我想補充一點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
23896.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
23915.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
有障碍青年團體他們有投書指出來從整體的數字來看身心障礙學生的升學情形跟一般學生有很明顯的落差以110學年度為例全國高中值應屆畢業生升學率接近86%但是身心障礙學生不到一半 大約45% |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
23917.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
23935.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那高中畢業後沒有繼續升學或就業的比例也將近三成那其中這個大專院校的入學管道很多障礙學生他所面臨的門檻之一是就是他面臨的這個關鍵門檻那以目前新興障礙學生升大學大專院校的真實來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
23936.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
23953.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
近年不僅出現現場現考場沒有這無障礙不足考場這個無障礙不足影響考試權益的爭議那在制度設計上也在校系開缺不穩定名額有限科系分布不均的情形目前真實的這個開缺多半是由各學校自己決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
23954.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
23980.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
但從實際結果來看確實也反映對某一些障礙身份的刻板印象讓這個障礙學生的升學選擇受到限制所以我想請教育部就這個機會把剛剛我們提出來一個很具體的東西是不是說你是不是有掌握這些現象那未來你在特教資源的配置上升學制度的設計上跟無障礙的支持上是不是可能有更有系統的檢討跟改善規劃就是2728條其實是連貫的以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
23985.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
23998.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
好謝謝 請經過委員謝謝主席剛剛有聽到教育部的代表是比較強調一個部分是學校交通接送這個部分但是因為昨天剛好有一個時事所以我只是想找官員來討論一個原則性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
24000.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
24017.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
因為昨天國家人權委員會對於行政院版的這個生權法修法意見提到說還沒有將融合教育入法是不符合公約的精神那CRPD的第三次國家審查快要來臨了如果這一次我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
24018.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
24034.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
沒有去評估是不是要平衡融合教育還有或是加上實質的提供孩子額外的幫助那我們辛辛苦苦請過來的這些國際審查委員會不會覺得我們似乎經過第一次第二次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
24035.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
24057.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
這些意見好像都沒有去採納他們的意見所以我是想藉這個機會詢問官員說是不是也是要用一個附帶決議來處理如果你們覺得這個題目比較大你們要不要用一個附帶決議來處理這樣子也可以讓國際委員可以看到你們有在在意他們的聲音來專委可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
24067.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
24082.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
陳專委不好意思謝謝委員的那個提問我從我這邊有記下來我就先逐一的做回答第一個是有關於高中升學的部分高中升學部分有一部分的孩子因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
24083.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
24101.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
他们如果已经有一些技能上面的学习有一些家长会希望他们能够衔接就业所以升学的比率上面确实是跟一般的孩子上来说是有比较少一点但是这几年是有逐渐的在提升我们看到那个升学的比率是在增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
24102.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
24128.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
那第二个是在大专升学的部分那其实目前大专升学的管道是多元的所以我们要求就是在每一种多元入学考试里面都要提供相关的无障碍的一个服务应试的服务这个部分是已经有在做要求也在执行那我们除了提供这些考试的应试适性的应试服务之外也 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
24130.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
24157.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
开设了为声音障碍学生额外的声障征事跟办理这个单招来提供他们外加的名额所以这些名额是另外额外再外加的那协助不同的障碍类别的学生能够依照他的能力然后进到这个学校里面来就读培养他们一个比较符合他们自己的能力的一个学习那另外呢再来就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
24158.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
24186.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
无障碍的部分无障碍的部分我们无论是高中以下或者是大专的部分这两年我们有大量的经费投入就希望说在校园的无障碍环境上面能够建构更符合特教孩子们的需求所以这个部分已经全面在做处理另外也有提到说人权会对于融合教育这个部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
24187.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
24206.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
纳入的状况那这部分其实我们在112年这个特教法的修正当中已经有将这个结论性意见包含CRPD CRC等等这些理念他所提到的融合教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
24207.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
24235.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
有很多条文都纳进来了所以在那一次的修法里面已经非常的落实把它融进去那另外呢我们除了特教法的修订之外我们也在修法之后的半年提出了特教中层计划这个不是只有法规的订定还包含我务实上我学校该如何来执行这个融合教育做一个全面性的一个执行那 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
24237.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
24254.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
剛才還有提到一個有關於跨縣市跨縣市就讀或是外地就學的原因是不是屬於資源的部分那其實這個部分有一個我們會依照就是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
24254.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
24271.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
就近因为国中小学是就近入学为主那如果是高中职的部分会依照说他原则还是就就近入学了但是会依照学生他自己选的这个部分为主那有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
24272.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
24291.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
有的特教學校如果是很重症的特教學校或許他會選擇依照他的帳別的方式去做處理那因為在整個CRPD他在審查的時候有特別提到我們對於集中式的特殊教育是希望能夠盡量以 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
24293.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
24320.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
以就是融合式的方式來做處理所以我們會盡量以符合他的方式來安排他適合的學校 以上說明好 簡單許專磊就是跟柯委員報告柯委員所提的修正都基本上都已經有在做了還是在相關報告裡面已經也在執行了那各位看意思怎麼樣應該是這樣啦好 那請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
24323.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
24339.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
不好意思就是就剛剛請教育部就剛剛我提到了那麼多除了包括跨縣市被迫被迫外地就學然後確實需要跨區就學就現在你剛剛說你們有盡量在做那 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
24340.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
24367.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那請問成效如何就是你有沒有掌握這些需求然後未來這個整個這個特教資源的配置等等剛剛我好像沒有聽到這個重點其實我們是我是藉這一次的這個2728條的這個提案希望就有機會讓您在這個國會頻道上就是把它做一個說明那你說有在做這個那成效如何是不是到了多少人他還是必須被迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
24369.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
24397.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
跨縣市被迫外地就學那這個會造成很多很多的問題啊交通住宿生活上的支持家長等等等等問題是很多所以我是希望您可不可以就那這個這樣做的成果如何那未來有沒有要參考這些東西有沒有盤整或盤點這些東西然後做為未來你繼續做特交資源配置的一些參考其實我想聽的是這個部分因為你們說有做有做有做但是事實上就一直發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
24399.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
24423.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我們聽到的特教學生就是這樣一直發聲可以嗎 可以就具體一點好嗎 謝謝來 再請許專主委員是 謝謝委員我們在安置上面對特教學生的安置其實是以縣市為單位進行安置不會要他們跨縣市然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
24427.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
24438.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
但我們提供的安置的部分就是他們會跨線是家長的一個選擇我們最後當然就會尊重家長的一個選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
24442.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
24466.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
我想这个部分应该是这样的一个情况你说家长的选择请问你们有真的去了解过或盘点过吗这个家长自己要去选学校吗是这样吗当然就地安置是非常好可是我现在问的问题是应该很多是不得已的他没有办法得到资源因为大部分人是没有办法并不鼓励自己的孩子这么小孩都是有障碍的孩子他要往外地去求学 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
24469.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
24482.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
你們有掌握這些資料嗎你們說鼓勵就地 就地安置 這個當然是好的但會不會就地安置就是資源不夠 會有什麼困難所以他被迫啊 被迫外地就學啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
24484.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
24510.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
謝謝委員這個部分我們再回去盤點對我也是希望說你們能多關心啦我想尤其面臨這個身心障礙的孩子誰不希望他就就近在不管在這個交通上在家庭資源上是就近來這個就學但是我想被迫就外地就學這個部分可能要請你們要多去了解多關心喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
24511.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
24523.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
因為就是可能有遇到困難或資源不足所以他們才去做了這樣的事情那所以目前應該說教育部我可以這樣講嗎你們目前並沒有真正去了解也沒有真正盤點或調查這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
24530.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
24551.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
你們不了解有多好身心障礙者的孩子們被迫做這樣選擇因為好像不是一句說家長自己選擇要跨縣市這樣就可以說明完謝謝委員的提問因為這個涉及到我們部裡面其他相關的單位那這塊我們會再回去做了解 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
24555.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
24580.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
不 這個應該不只是教育部啦 這還有衛福部的那這個就請教委來指示啦 看這件事情的說明是不是要 既然我們在修今天這個法是不是這個部分也要 要非常關心啊對 非常重點我會請次長 次長能不能回應一下因為次長畢竟來自地方政府嘛 對不對教育部的特殊教育學校裡面其實坦白講已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
24581.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
24607.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
某種程度我的理解啦是有達到這樣的安置上的一個效益跟效果的存在啦那有的必須要誇獻是可能有身體上的比較極具特殊的狀況或科系上的問題那因為這邊強調是各級教育主管機關嘛那是我的理解因為這個學校我經常在跑我算是對這個事情還算熟悉啦所以剛剛專委這樣的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
24611.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
24638.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
是對啦 不過好像他比較沒有把握啦我的理解是這樣因為我是看我們那個縣市啦 你看全國的所以應該你的答案要比我更精準然後更胸有成竹然後你們目前來講可能遇到那個陳昭志委員所擔憂的部分應該是十年前對照跟現在對照是有蠻大的顯著的一個進展了啦應該是這麼講 會有跨縣市的可能是有生理上的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
24639.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
24664.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
就是他的那個三成的等級再來就是可能他的那個科系的問題或是怎麼樣我忘記了不過這個應該是你可以補充給委員來做參考啦沒關係啦 各位如果覺得解釋不是很清楚還是次長要再補充解釋不然我們就先保留沒關係 好不好所以你不要補充就對了你沒辦法就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
24666.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
24693.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
總算問到你沒辦法 好 謝謝這一條我們先保留 好 謝謝來繼續審查台灣民眾黨所提第28條 國務卿委員一樣是28條還有歡迎委員 現行條文28條 我們並願討論請行政委員沒有提出那這個也是屬於教育部吧 對不對好 那要不要請這個許專委先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
24698.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
24726.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
有關於委員提到說對於甄烈無法外出就學偏鄉的部分那這個部分目前我們相關的法規包含偏遠地區學校教育發展的條例跟提供在家教育服務等這一些在相關的法規已有規定這個是可以提供的那我們是想說回到各原本的規定不在這裡訂定維持原條文 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
24728.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
24747.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
原本規定在哪邊 要跟委員說明嗎原本規定就是28條他現在提到的是各級主管教育各級教育主管機關應主動的協助聲音障礙學生障礙者就學並應主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
24748.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
24770.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
協助正在接受醫療 社政等相關單位服務的聲音障礙學齡者解決其教育相關問題我們希望用這樣的方式去含瓜因為委員剛才提的這些建議我們目前是有在做那這些是在其他的相關法規裡面去做處理所以是不是不要在這邊再寫進來謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
24777.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
24805.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
他說 許書仁說在其他的相關法規有在處理你能不能明確是在哪一條哪一個法律的法條裡面我要找一下 等我一下你記不起來 看得出來他沒有記起來了在偏嚴地區學校教育發展條例然後我們的在家教育是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
24810.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
24824.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
邊緣地區教育發展條例感到好請郭靖遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
24826.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
24851.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
好這一條其實我們主要還是針對就是協助身心障礙者就學的這個部分但是有很多的身心障礙者他們其實是無法外出就學然後或者是他們身處這個偏鄉的這樣子的一個身心障礙的學生其實他們是比較缺乏這個明確的支持的責任所以在實務上我們是認為他們很容易因為我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
24853.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
24871.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
就是這些制度裡頭沒有沒有得到一個支持的一個資源所以在這個地方我是特別有寫到其實就是兩句就是無法外出就學跟偏鄉那另外就是正在接受治療或者是社政相關單位那後面其實都是一樣只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
24872.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
24895.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
在就是希望我們的主管機關是主動介入去協助啦解決他們在就學過程當中的一些包含交通啦環境啦或者是服務的這個障礙的部分不要因為地理的位置或身體的狀況那讓他們在求學的過程當中被中斷喔那這個是我主要提的是這個部分以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
24898.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
24914.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
好請陳周知委員 謝謝我再補充謝謝主席就是二十七二十八我覺得是在一起的那剛剛因為回答大家也看到就教育部現在手邊沒有資料那次長也沒有先要表達補充的意思那請看我們的提案說明其實我把剛剛郭委員他提到的然後我把它具體化 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
24915.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
24936.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
其實最主要的要積極協助對象包括因重度障礙疾病等因素無法外出就學第二個就是居住偏遠地區教育資源不足第三個是因為接受醫療設置服務導致教育中斷或衝突者這些都是我們在可能在第28條的這個立法裡面我們覺得其實是明確要照顧要協助的這個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
24937.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
24949.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
那這個跟其實剛剛第27條是有它的關聯性那主席因為他們今天也沒辦法滿足我們這些這個疑問一個說明那是不是再給他們時間去做一個準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
24949.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
24973.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
好 當然可以 但是他現在好像準備要滿足你們了他已經站起來了 請說明看能不能滿足陳朝思委 謝謝其實我們在特殊教育法裡面跟他的執法有施行系者有特別提到說對於這樣的孩子 我們的核心精神是可以透過學校的巡迴輔導教師跟專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
24976.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
24998.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
對於安置學生或是他在家教育的這些孩子我們要提供他個別化的教育計畫就是IEP為這些孩子提供這些教材 評量跟親子教育跟復健等等全方位的一個資源所以在我剛才提的這個規定裡面是已經有把它納進去了以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
25004.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
25018.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
28條勉強解釋了一下不過27條其實是一起的27條現在空白的這樣子你們有成效嗎不好意思可以問嗎你們已經這樣做了然後有成效嗎這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
25025.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
25052.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
這個我們可能我們會請部裡面相關單位提供如果有需要委員有需要這些東西現在就是需要現在就需要你及時滿足啊你28條先保留啦好不好就跟27他問清楚之後那是一下休息的時候還是還是是一下可以跟兩位提案的委員再說明清楚嗎好不好你必須要滿足委員的這樣的一個我們先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
25054.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
25076.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
來繼續審查一樣委員 台灣民眾黨所提第30條還有郭玉琴委員林月琴委員范瑀委員還有我們性侵條文並案討論來請這個是一樣是教育部來許中緯 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
25101.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
25113.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
這個委員的提案也是特別針對個人協助服務跟27條還有就是教材的部分交通的部分還有應考的一個無障礙的部分來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
25114.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
25143.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
增列那這個跟剛才27條一樣我們在特教法裡面所有的條在特教法55個條文裡面有許多個條文都有針對這些無障礙的一個提供的服務來做明定還有相關的執法那這個部分是不是也可以回到我們特教法的一個規定那在這邊希望能夠維持原條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
25145.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
25166.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
來 請陳教授委員謝謝主席因為這一條提出來就是CRP第24條教育之保障精神而且我們參考第二次國家報告結論性意見所指成的缺失所以這條的修正是強化對生技障礙學生在教育跟入學考試過程他所需要各種支持跟服務的具體內容所以好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
25167.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
25192.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
怎麼根絕2728怎麼跟這樣很像就是說你們說有做也要這樣做但是既然我們現在要立法了在修法但是那我們至少要知道做到一個什麼程度我們決定是要放在在母法裡面充分定義呢還是說已經做到程度已經可以讓我們了解那個成效現在應該是教育部這次應該是沒有準備了對不對這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
25194.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
25223.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
有嗎 有我跟委員報告一下我們在特教法第38條特別提到我們要給孩子的這些支持服務涵瓜的項目這個都已經列舉在這裡面那另外剛才委員所提的這個成效我們每年有出版特教統計年報所以這樣的服務的數量會在統計年報上面也有那這個資料都是在網路上可以公開來做查閱的 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
25224.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
25249.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我想說最以上的一個補充那剛才我們剛才也查了一下就是有關於我們對於那個就是在家教育的那個服務的數量在統計年報上面剛才也有看到這樣的數字那待會我在跟委員這邊做報告拿資料給您查閱這樣子以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
25251.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
25257.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
就我這樣等一下瞭解一下他們做的成果對 我知道當然是務必要滿足來 年輕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
25262.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
25286.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
這邊因為我有提版本裡面有一些修正就是因為輔具科技日新月異不應該只限縮在教育輔助的一個器材所以我這邊加一個與輔助科技還有一個不是只有接受教育因為有時候他們面對到的還有考試的機會所以是不是應該要加一個考試的機會這個是不是可以麻煩回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
25292.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
25292.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
來取專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
25303.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
25331.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
跟委員報告有關於那個考試的機會其實我們有訂定聲音障礙學生考試服務辦法還有那個相關的一個規定那裡面都有提到說我們在整個應試上面應該要提供的服務那在特教法裡面已經有明定所謂的提供他不可以就是提供他考試的一個對不起 我翻一下法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
25332.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
25334.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
提供他考試的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
25340.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
25364.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
就是在特教法33條裡面特別有針對我們提供孩子升學或者是在校考試的時候這樣的一個權益跟義務這個部分都已經有而且還授權訂定執法所以我們想說這個部分是不是回歸到特教法因為特教法是屬於專法在保障聲音障礙學生的一個學習權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
25369.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
25373.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
謝謝另外對於那個輔助科技的部分輔助科技的部分你們那邊有嗎容許我待會查一下再補充 謝謝好 沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
25394.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
25418.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
應該是這樣啦 特殊教育法還是偏鄉教育條例等啦應該會有跟我們生存法有相容的啦有相容法律 但是不一定全部趨於一致啦那如果趨於一致 當然我們這邊就不需要再訂但是現有的法律還是 條例都還是在那我們是從這個條例裡面去爭換為項目啦 這個都OK所以也請教育部可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
25418.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
25438.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
可能你今天來就應該知道你會面對到自己條的情況之下可能要快速的因應 加以滿足主席我補充幾句因為就是他們稱讚者他們都在關心嘛他們認為說過去有做有規範但是就認為他們認為我這還是謝謝教育部那個專委他今天也承擔很多嘛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
25439.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
25455.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
他們就覺得做了還不足啦 對啦就是確實他們現在的資訊進來就是還不足才會希望修法 才會希望修這個法也讓教育部知道 是啊教育主管機關就是做得比較不足所以我們現在要依靠衛生主管機關好 謝謝來請林彥琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
25461.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
25484.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
我覺得一樣今天要修一部法真的是上次剛好要生逢其死啊否則一部法要修真的是很困難那我覺得我們沒有辦法今年修明年又修那在這樣的考量下我覺得可能要再擴大一點所以我為什麼會寫輔助科技所以像比如特殊軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
25485.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
25509.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
例如特殊軟體這樣的對身心障礙的學生會有幫助都是我們的輔助科技的範疇所以我認為應該列入教育單位可提供的項目他雖然你剛講說辦法有明定對特殊生有些考試的一個相關規定可是既然你都在做了那辦法位階還是比較低那是不是就放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
25511.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
25522.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
我們的這個法裡邊我覺得會比較合一因為既然都已經做那辦法的位階低的話那倒不如放在那個這邊法裡邊位階會比較高的以上好 請徐專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
25532.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
25554.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
剛才委員提到的一個是有關於考試的那部分其實特效法裡面就是有明定然後再授權訂定執法它不是只有執法而已第一個是這個第二個是科技輔具的部分其實我們現在目前也都是有在做沒有錯但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
25555.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
25581.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
整個輔具的使用上面我們除了輔具的提供還有教育訓練還有其他的部分那我們當時在修特教法的時候也有委員做這樣的一個提醒但是最後大家討論完最後修的版本就是目前特教法的這樣的版本所以我們才會想說那個是經過尤其特教法經歷了兩年多的時間修法我們召開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
25581.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
25608.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
大概60幾場快70場的會議去討論出來的共識在經國立法院這樣的審查委員們的關心逐一討論出來的結果那對教育特殊教育的那個細緻度是真的是很完整所以我們才會一再的說明說是不是容我們就是納回去我們的特殊教育法這樣的一個方式去做處理那謝謝委員的關心我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
25609.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
25630.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
當然清楚知道說特教的孩子他們需要的我們能夠提供的我們應該要盡量提供那他們需要的我們目前沒辦法的我們也要努力往這個方向去努力我覺得這個是一個很基本的一個想法啦跟我們能夠做的那因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
25631.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
25650.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
如果在兩個法裡面或是不同的法裡面納進的那個部分是有一點落差的那我們在執行上其實是會有困擾的那目前看起來是沒有很大落差只是會在相同的內容在不同的法規裡面我們覺得好像有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
25652.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
25673.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
就是一載一載的去說明這樣是不是可以回到特教法以上 謝謝好 了解他很誠懇的這樣報告誠懇的來講說因為這個後法在這邊在修你剛才在講特教法那我就容我問一下你特教法有講到輔助科技嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
25675.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
25702.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
沒有的話因為這法就是說現在日新月異那有過去也沒什麼AI或是我們生成就很多的科技事實上是沒在過去你的法裡面即便你過去開了即便事實上一百場會議修了特教法可是現在已經走到2026年的那有一些新型的一些狀況所以我們才會講說可不可以用輔助科技那否則就要拜託說明一下過去有這些字眼嗎以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
25705.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
25732.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
再請國務卿委員剛剛其實聽完之後我們當然知道這個特教法其實有針對就是特殊教育的這些孩子他們有一些制度上的一些支持但是我覺得這一條其實主要還是在講應考支持的一個措施就是當這些孩子他們要去應考的時候他們可能會碰到的一些障礙跟困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
25732.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
25752.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
那我覺得這個部分在我的條文我們是明確的有把個人協助的一個服務跟無障礙格式的一個教材跟資訊還有無障礙的一個交通跟彈性應考的一個方式跟場所把它寫進去就是讓這樣子的一個支持不是只有停留在這個硬體的設施而是回歸到這些學生他們真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
25753.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
25770.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
在要應考的時候他們真正的生活的一個需求那確保這個公平其實真的不是只有寫在這個特教法裡頭而是它是實際會發生在考場上的所以我就是提出我自己的這個建議的一個版本好 以上好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
25774.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
25798.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
許莊瑋你要不要這樣好不好我知道你很誠懇啦那個那個輔助科技也不是現在才有我們這個原本條文在52條就有了所以所以你們的特效法是不是可以跟上這個腳步要不要這樣好不好因為大家都很誠懇那因為剛剛又來個專業的醫師來了不給大家休息到時候又有意見我們要休息十分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
25800.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
25805.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
因為已經隔了一個鐘頭四十一分了剛剛 請大家休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
26725.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
26746.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
我們繼續開會請各位回座謝謝好剛剛是處理到30條我不曉得這個有沒有說明清楚了有沒有滿足了各位委員的好請各位請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
26748.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
26776.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
因為剛剛其實有跟這個教育部的人員在討論就是說雖然在我們的這個以特教法來講它裡頭是以升學就是硬考的到底是什麼樣的一個硬考的一個狀況他們是以所謂的升學的部分但是我們現在看到這個30條其實對於所謂的這個硬考的標準或是條件到底是什麼樣的考試算是硬考的一個標準這個部分其實好像還沒有還沒有很清楚啦好 以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
26777.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
26803.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
來 請李月琴委員月琴一定要給人家講下去嘛那個器材我認為會比較限縮啦當然剛剛宗燕修昔有溝通說因為器材也含非器材 這很奇怪就是你這邊就已經寫器材了所以我認為還是既然這個法修在後 比你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
26804.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
26832.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
特殊教育法修在後的話 我覺得是不是還是要有一點前瞻的做法 就是可不可以把輔助科技放進去 以上好 林委員還是希望把輔助科技放進去來 公務卿次長回應先告但是我剛才看你你次長怎麼約主代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
26842.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
26863.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
所以現在請許專委再做回應一下好不好你也請委員希望把輔助科技把它納入在這裡面這輔助科技也不是新的啦因為在這個生存法裡面第52條就有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
26868.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
26890.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
輔助科技在我們現在的法律裡面就有了謝謝委員剛才因為也有跟秘書這邊說其實我們在現在相關的法規裡面包含高級中等影像學校特殊教育的一個教材實施評量辦法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
26891.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
26910.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
以它裡面用輔具的一個名稱它也是用科技輔助科技它也是有加這樣子的一個名稱是有啦那我先講一下為什麼當時我們特教法提供的是原本是輔具輔助器材而已後來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
26911.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
26932.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
寫輔具服務教育輔具服務因為我們在整個輔具的提供上面不是只有我提供東西給他我必須還要教他還要幫助他如果東西壞掉我要幫他做維修那使用上有什麼困擾或是有什麼需要再調整的我們都應該提供服務所以那是一種服務那 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
26933.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
26959.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
涵蓋的範圍就比較大那我們當時想到說如果只是一個輔具或者是輔助科技好像沒有辦法整個都包進去所以才用這樣的名稱那剛才委員提到的是說想要加這個輔助科技這樣的一個內容其實我們目前執行是都有在做只是跟我們現在目前的特教法特教法才剛修沒有多久我們所有的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
26960.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
26980.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
就不一樣了但是我們的立法說明寫得很清楚包含硬體跟軟體的提供包含像一些溝通輔具啊它可能就是一個軟體那這些都是含瓜在我們提供的一個範疇裡面我想說跟委員做這樣的報告內容是都有謝謝來請林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
26984.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
26999.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
如果都有 而且你也講說辦法也叫做輔助科技 既然辦法都寫一樣嘛 過去我們有時候在施行細則列的話 覺得可能在做施行細則說明比較不這麼理想 所以就有時候會放在母法裡邊 在修法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
27000.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
27025.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
那加上這個我不知道早上我們就有講過輔助科系含兩塊一個是輔具跟輔具服務那也符合你的在特效法裡面在做說明的時候也有提到就是說不是只有輔具還有輔具輔具服務所以我覺得那用這四個字概括反而事實上是比你這個還理想還有一個是你是在辦法裡面所以這部分我還蠻堅持的以上好那各位還沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
27034.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
27061.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
現在議會委員所提的不是就輔助科技增列這四個字還有下面還有導述第三行使其得公平合理接受教育之考試機會這個是原有條文是沒有的所以是兩件事在講兩件事情然後這條文的改的修正是這個樣子那其他委員當然包含民眾團團還有國會委員都有其實提到服務是反而是郭委員這邊有提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
27063.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
27086.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
個人協助服務無障礙格式教材 大家搭話還是還是先保留我還是請教育部許莊爺就整理出一個大家可接受的這樣的一個版本好不好可以吧我先保留啦你整理看看好不好 利用給你時間換取一些空間對 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
27096.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
27120.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
我們繼續審查這個民眾黨團所提三十之一還有國務卿委員 一樣是三十之一還有馬文君委員還有范雲委員吳立華委員 現行條文三十之一的條文好 這個是屬於一樣是教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
27124.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
27127.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
要不要请许庄委再回应一下 先回应 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
27163.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
27190.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
應該如果現場委員跟民眾黨團都是多增加這無障礙對不對都是多增加無障礙不在現場就可以吧應該沒問題吧好沒問題那就謝謝好沒問題了對都可以了所以就是依照民眾黨團提案與國會委員的提案來修正後通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
27192.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
27210.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
你提案通過了他們多一個無傷害而已吧就是依照他的提案通過因為他跟他的提案不相同一樣一二三他有三項他只有兩項所以必須要確定文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
27219.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
27243.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
郭委員少了一項 對不起行政機關打出確定文字我們還是把文字弄一下好不好然後宣讀一次之後我們再確定 抱歉 不好意思對 依照民眾黨團的這個版本因為有三項 原條文也是三項那郭委員少了一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
27251.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
27278.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
還是剛才跟剛才一樣的對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
27282.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
27309.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
那應該是請問可不可以叫民眾黨的版本 因為最完整對 我知道 我知道 當然 當然郭委員那個可能是漏掉了因為第二項在此前項好 各位如果沒有意見我們就依照台灣民眾黨團所提案來修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
27313.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
27326.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
對 照台灣民眾黨團提案通過好 謝謝啦 好好 繼續審查條文三十條之二有一樣是台灣民眾黨團還有委員 呃 郭益群 呃 煥雲吳麗華 還有現行條文來 請許專委說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
27341.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
27363.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
有關於這個提案裡面有特別提到說要跟聲音障礙者及聲音障礙者團體相關專業團體言商訂定之那這個部分跟相關人員或團體專業團體言商這個部分是沒有問題可是可能訂定之會有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
27365.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
27388.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
問題是我們希望能夠以指定之因為這個格式是現有的應該是指定什麼樣的方式是屬於大家能夠接受就是指聲音障礙者或是聲音障礙者團體或相關專業團體他們目前就是常用的哪一些是他們覺得哪一個是適合的所以應該是指定是不是可以調整成指定之這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
27400.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
27411.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
調整指定支原本的定定支改成指定支 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
27420.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
27450.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我們主席就請主席確認就是民眾黨跟國會委員的版本我們後面都有說前向所謂數位格式由中央主管機關與身心障礙者身心障礙團體相關的共同指定之這幾個團體因為不同的障別那個障礙類別他們的需求不一樣其實我們目的就這樣就無障礙就是符合為了無障礙的這個數位格式不是說只有電子黨還有很多電子黨沒有辦法處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
27451.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
27469.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
這樣子可以嗎可以跟這些人員或團體來共同指定不是就是不是訂定是指定因為那個東西已經都訂好了只是要指哪一個這樣子指定跟訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
27474.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
27483.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
你指定支是前面有一個阻碍器官所以後面來講指定支你前面有一堆你要講做後面變成指定支 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
27484.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
27498.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
是指那個數位格式已經有了有很多種數位格式那個數位格式已經有了所以是指定數位格式我不會再去嚴定一個數位格式不同的東西出來不是這樣子的所以兩位委員可以達到各個各占別的無障礙的數位格式嗎因為我還是不太懂那個指定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
27514.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
27539.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
意思 因為目的目的就是為了希望把這個概念說你把身心障礙者的權利工作中的資訊無障礙的精神那不同的障礙類別都能夠真的用得到因為有些人他比如說看看需要字幕有人需要簡明簡明易懂有人需要搭配那個輔助科技就是說每人需求不太一樣我們的重點應該是這樣那你用改成指定是不是也達到一樣的目的呢來 郭媛 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
27544.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
27566.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
我知道這個意思啦就是說如果是用定定之感覺是就是上面沒有羅列的一些一些東西要重新再定義這個叫定定那指定的話就是已經有了一些條件然後去指定他這樣子應該是這意思對不對是嗎是吧你們是這意思好ok以上可以我覺得可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
27568.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
27594.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
所以前項所稱數位格式由中央集團機關與身心障礙者及身心障礙者團體與相關專業團體指定之就這樣改這樣請打出來然後台灣民眾黨是有在第一項有無障礙政教無障礙誌言跟郭威權也是一樣最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
27596.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
27617.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
對 可及性啊 還有多一個可及性 這是台灣民眾黨有的你們有可及性啊郭委員沒有可及性啊沒有啦 有 有嗎 對不起 都有都有 你沒有無障礙啦 我有沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
27629.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
27642.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
123456782468對啊民眾黨團是在第八行教科書之無障礙數位格式哎呀郭偉你沒有啊32條之後啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
27650.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
27667.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
我的是第一項其他特定身心障礙者可及性之無障礙格式是這樣子啦對啦 那個民眾黨團有多在你前面有多一個無障礙啦其實這個會不會有點罪詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
27672.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
27700.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
或學校提供所出版教科書之無障礙書位格式以利製作專攻思學功能障礙者及前條第一項或其他先前障礙者可及性之無障礙格式這邊講是無障礙書位格式這邊講是可及性之無障礙格式差不多啦 差不多好啦 差不多 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
27701.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
27718.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
好來 請許專委跟主席報告我們是不是可以在與聲音障礙者及聲音障礙團體與相關專業團體指定字的這個語的部分改成會商 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
27738.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
27754.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
你確定喔好 歸會 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
27762.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
27765.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
各位他要把研商改為會商你們覺得會商好嗎 等級不同喔對會商會完商完以後也可以不理喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
27791.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
27794.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
你們為什麼希望用會商兩個字請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
27811.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
27833.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
會了以後 商了以後 還是可以不採納因為它不是一起共同擬定的那我們的目的都一樣嘛要一起來 現在的所有精神都一樣就是當事人要一起來請教 那個沒關係 第二項他們去弄清楚第一項就是無障礙跟可及性都要放進去嘛 對不對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
27844.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
27874.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
陳燦 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
27875.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
27901.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
陳昭你可以說明一下 讓他們抽參考嘛某個會商跟研商有這麼久他們現在就算你研商啦你把外面的人叫做會商啦不是啊 對啦就是研商比較好研商比較好嘛他研商比較沒有從俗的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
27904.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
27908.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
對 他們原本就不是從事問題會議上有上級機關跟下級機關的分別會議上 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
27920.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
27940.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
我覺得那個會商如果不要放在那個地方應該是說主管機關與身心障礙者然後身心障礙者團體及相關專業團體共同會商指定之這樣我覺得還比較就是要共同一起啦我的意思是 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
27940.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
27960.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
會商放在那邊感覺是上對下我報告一下因為這邊有高人知道根據行政程序法及中央行政機關法制作業應注意事項等規範會商及會同的差異在被規範的機關全責不同所以基本上這個是會商會同是 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
27961.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
27975.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
是在行政機關之間所以法律命令草擬階段主管機關會商有關機關的意見但這個是由主管機關自行決定寫得很清楚他事實上這個會商可能教育部專委您這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
27977.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
27991.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
可能要再確認一下因為我們現在是跟民間團體我們在其他的法案的規範都沒有用會商這個字眼這個是個專有名詞根據行政法會商是個專有名詞會商會同都是專有名詞請再查證一下 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
27994.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
28012.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
沒有 剛剛郭委員建議這樣是OK啦你在後面一樣就是延伤指定資啦我就這樣就解決 請說好你說跟主席報告謝謝剛才委員的提醒那確實在整個法治的這個公告程序裡面如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
28013.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
28034.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
寫成完全沒有段落的話會變成教育部的公告程序裡面不是只有教育部公告還所有的會商團體都要一起列名單做公告所以我們這邊是不是可以調整就是在就是在跟這些單位會商後 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
28035.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
28042.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
然後再指定支指定支是由教育部來指定因為這件事情是主管機關來執行不是相關的團體來執行一樣要在會上討論或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
28059.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
28084.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
所以我說那個法規陳燦你敢不敢講一下你讓他們做參考嘛你內行的你不敢講的對啊剛剛陳委員講得很清楚我們這個會不管是會商還是會簽什麼是行政機關內部的作業程序啊對啊那你現在有涉及到外部的單位啊對啊那個是共同來討論完之後決定的對啊就研商嘛對研商啊比較貼切嘛是是是是這樣跟你說我現在在滿足你 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
28091.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
28114.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
所以就原來的那個就是共同研商後指定制這樣對不對這樣子會比較合理一點要逗點嗎是不是不用逗點不用逗點我的意思那好 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
28115.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
28131.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
我看沒有前項所稱數位格式中央轉機關與身心障礙者身心障礙者團體及相關團體共同延伸後則定之可以吧這樣可以吧這樣可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
28134.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
28152.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
請說另外主席有提到一個可及性之無障礙格式那可及性跟無障礙是同樣的意思它涵蓋是相同的那是不是只要折移因為它是一樣的意思所以可及性要拿掉是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
28173.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
28193.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
怎樣你一直跟我點頭我不曉得什麼意思啊可及性要拿掉還是不用拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
28194.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
28206.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
可及性要拿掉兩位委員為什麼拿掉你們會怕這三個字喔不是因為他跟無障礙是一樣的無障礙格式是一樣的意思等於會重複沒有沒有現在有一點我們今天好像有點在玩這個我們好像在上國文課就可及性然後他們都看得懂啊無障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
28222.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
28236.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
可及但是要無障礙啊可及啊可拿得到可以用但是本身對他讀起來用起來沒有障礙不會完全相等喔這裡有國文老師嗎不會完全相等喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
28237.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
28263.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
那個可及不是啦不是不是老師講話不是啦不是我是說那個可及性是講某個地方資訊然後可以讓人很順暢的接觸這個叫做可及性啦它其實跟無障礙但我像我的版本是寫可及性之無障礙對啊可及性之無障礙格式所以其實是應該是讓無障礙就是身心障礙者他可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
28264.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
28279.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
這要怎麼解釋就是它可以可以可及性的那個後面接觸的那個是不用特別寫啦可及性之無障礙格式對啊應該應該不用拿掉吧我想這個應該是比較完整具體一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
28283.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
28306.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
你是要表達說所謂的無障礙嘛對不對因為可及性的就沒有障礙的問題就沒有障礙的問題嘛是不是這樣不是因為在那個CRPD的翻譯裡面他那個可及性跟無障礙是等同的一個概念那這個部分是不是看衛福部這邊有那個是CRPD的解釋我這樣解釋不是比較好嗎對嗎他要說的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
28313.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
28323.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
個級性就是已經有 就是沒有障礙嘛我是說他是想要這樣解釋啦 對啦這個許莊委求助衛福部 次長次長要講話 不能只點他 次長光聽不講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
28344.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
28364.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
跟幾位委員報告我們剛才我們自己的幾位辦理身心障礙的同仁在這個如果是涉及到這個有關在這邊主要是涉及到有關資訊的部分確實在目前實務上運用的時候在可及性和無障礙的他的實體的概念上面內涵其實是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
28365.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
28373.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
所以這個或許在文字上是不一定需要真的兩個都把它寫出來它內涵概念是相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
28390.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
28410.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
我用醫療做概念 醫療可行性是available但是你身心障礙者進去你沒有障礙的去使用這些醫療或就醫是不一樣的怎麼會一模一樣這兩個字詞是不一樣放下去有困難嗎會造成你們的有什麼自然難行嗎不會嗎 不會就不要怕來請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
28417.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
28440.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
我不好意思 因為我也是研究Medical的老實說Medical裡面Accessibility跟無障礙是不一樣的Medical裡面 我不知道你們的學問這麼廣 說資訊裡面都identical 不好意思 這有點超出我正常理解力範圍之外但是我是尊重 但是我要說明一下在確實的Medical裡面Accessibility跟無障礙就是兩個不同概念 以上說明 謝謝那許專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
28445.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
28470.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
沒有什麼他 你就這個就把它放進來我是覺得應該沒什麼太大差別啦 好不好我趕緊就直接放進來好啦 可以啦 好啦那我們要處理囉這條的清潔弄很久了所以就依照沒有 沒有要拿掉 沒有要拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
28471.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
28484.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
接觸那兩個字拿掉吧是不是對 接觸那兩個字拿掉你們可以 這樣可以吧沒問題吧就這樣接觸那兩個字拿掉好不好可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
28499.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
28527.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
好 可以喔所以是依照好 那我們就照臺灣民眾黨團及委員郭益勤提案修正通過好 謝謝繼續審查第31條有委員郭益勤 范雲還有吳麗華還有現行天安午 我們邊緣討論來請相關單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
28530.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
28556.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
一樣是教育部來請許專利說明這邊是特別提到要研發無障礙教具教材等服務加了一個無障礙的部分那這個部分我們就是食物現場也是盡力在處理這一個那我們沒有意見沒有意見好 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
28559.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
28580.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
所以是最 都一樣嗎好所以我們第31條就依照郭議員提案通過好 第三條就依照郭議員提案通過 好 謝謝繼續審查第32條一樣有郭議員還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
28588.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
28604.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
歡迎委員現請條文請一樣還有我的修正動議修正動議第12案劉建國委員所提的修正動議第12案請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
28608.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
28637.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
32條的部分最主要是刪除原本條文第二項有關中央教育主管機關應該積極的鼓勵輔導大專校院開辦按摩理療按摩或醫療按摩相關科系並應保障視覺功能障礙者入學及就學機會那有范瑩委員跟郭益勤委員等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
28638.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
28650.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
那這個部分我們范議委員現在提的是直接刪除第二項這個部分我們目前是沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
28653.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
28682.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
那郭委員這邊提到說要依其教育階段學習需求及障礙狀況提供獎學金助學金或其他必要之獎助措施這一個部分我們尤其是後面那個其他必要之獎助措施這塊我們比較難去思考這個到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
28690.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
28692.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
這樣講話有點得罪人小心一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
28697.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
28724.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
這條應該是在處理啦我這邊有修正動議你可能還沒有看到我就講一下應該他是在講本法第46條第一項規定非視覺功能障礙者不得從事按摩業那已經在中華民國100年的10月31日施行效力所以為了保障視覺功能障礙者之共融平等教育所以建立在三組本條的第二項那如果如果還有其他委員要處理相關的一些一些一些內容是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
28726.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
28728.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
有其他地方 其他法條可以來相容 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
28729.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
28754.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
來做處理嗎還是要做負債決議還是要增加法條來 請說明 國情委對不起我說明一下就是這個部分其實現行就是高級中等以上的這個教育講助制度的一個修正那過去其實就是只有涵蓋這個餘餘講助然後沒有區分就是他的教育階段跟他這個學習需求跟障礙的一些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
28755.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
28780.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
那我覺得這個是比較難呼應所謂的這個個別的差別所以我特別在這個修正的部分就是依照實際需求提供獎助學金然後再來就是其他的一些支持的一個措施讓資源能夠用在比較對的地方那最主要我是因為覺得應該是要呼應就是不同的一個教育的學習的一個階段所以我才會這樣子提好 以上好 請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
28788.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
28804.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
我們目前在給孩子的那個費用除了獎學金應該是補助我們現在做的是補助金那因為有一些經費我們在提供孩子一些助學相關的經費的時候他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
28804.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
28822.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
会有排挤的问题就是他可能领了这个另外一个可能就会做排挤所以当时部里面在这个经费的用语上面是有做过横着的避免说孩子有了A奖学金或者是有其他的奖助然后排挤到他另外一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
28823.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
28851.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
資源這樣子我們希望他能夠在他可以拿得到的都能夠提供給他大概是這樣的一個概念那目前我們是在特教法裡面已經有明訂這項的一個規定而且訂有相關的執法那是不是可以允許我們這個案子能夠保留現在的條文他也是具有一個彈性那在我們的特教法跟我們的執法裡面做一個處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
28854.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
28867.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
可以嗎 國務委員 沒意見所以我們32條就依照國務委員所提的修正動議通過 可以啦好 謝謝繼續審查台灣民眾黨團所提33條還有委員郭益勤33條 還有委員煥雲現行條文一樣是33條這個請 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
28885.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
28914.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
老鄭來 副組長請說是 那主席各位委員大家好第33條的部分行政院版是沒有提案那目前的委員的版本包括我們民眾黨團還有范雲委員跟郭玉琴委員有提案這裡面打算把各級勞工主管機關目前在做這個職業重建的這個相關服務工作裡面把個別化的職業重建服務的計畫的服務的內容納入所謂的合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
28915.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
28924.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
那以今天早上我們在討論這個議題有關合理調整的部分其實跟身心障礙朋友做這個協商合理調整的主要的一個義務的主體是雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
28925.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
28952.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
那所以這個部分在16條裡面已經有相關的明確規範至於我們這個條文裡面所規範的是勞工主管機關裡面的職從各管員那各管員所提供的是一個服務性質的一個具體措施跟合理調整做一個法定的義務事項兩者性質並不相同所以這個部分是不是可以請委員支持我們還是維持現行的條文 以上來請陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
28955.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
28971.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
謝謝主席前兩天那個勞發署來跟我們討論並解釋那勞動部去年7月也出版了一本身心障礙者職場合理調整行政指導及常見問答我回家認真看了一下其實真的還不錯一讀一懂的這個圖卡來傳達理念就是這一本 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
28972.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
28987.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
不過你們在AI生成圖片裡面請注意一下有時候會出一些亂碼像P第30頁的地方我想謝謝勞發署的努力我們就尊重願板民眾黨尊重願板好 謝謝委員謝謝民眾黨尊重願板各位委員有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
28991.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
29018.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
來 郭警衛 我沒有好 那我們第33條就維持現行條文通過 好 謝謝 至於審查院版所提第38條 那委員有劉建國蔡宇宇 郭益勤還有陳冠廷 林月琴蘇巧慧 吳立華還有李坤誠 張雅琳還有現行條文請行政機關來做說明 是 做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
29020.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
29042.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
那第38條的部分我們院版所修正的內容主要有兩個重點第一個重點是針對禁用的醫務機關他在計算他的員工總人數跟所禁用的聲音障礙的人數這個計算的基準日啊由目前的每月的一日加保的人數來計算改成每月的末日加保的人數來計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
29043.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
29069.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
這樣子的一個調整可以給予我們這些義務禁用機關有更大的一個禁用彈性也避免他們勞資雙方說好了要上班的一個上工日會因為這個加保的一個時間而有所延宕這個是第一個我們所做的一個調整第二個是依照我們這個最低工資法在114年已經上路那目前相關的條文有關這個基本工資的部分全部都改成最低工資那其餘著作文字修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
29070.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
29096.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
那委員版本的部分呢有一個地方要特別提出來跟大家報告就是有關陳冠廷委員在這個條文的第一項裡面訴求提案要把各級政府機關公立學校跟公營事業機構員工總人數在34人以上他的一個禁用的比率從3%提高到4%那這個部分會擴增我們生意障礙朋友8000多個就業機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
29097.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
29109.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
但是因為會涉及到包括政府機關跟公立學校跟公立事業單位的一個用人空間的一個變動所以這邊我們會建議是不是要徵詢包括我們教育部或人種相關單位的意見以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
29111.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
29138.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
好 請林月琴委員好 我的修正事項是在第三項將查核人數的計算基準日調整為每月末日給予禁用機關 義務機關更多聘僱身心障礙的彈性所以感謝採納我的意見因為這樣調整一方面可以確保身心障礙者的就業權益以外另外一方面也可以避免我們的機關購即使已聘用身心障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
29139.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
29161.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
卻因為差額補助費的一個制度要求員工隔月再到職導致我們的工資上收入減少的不合理狀況而且這樣的修正主要事實上是讓制度鼓勵及時聘僱而不是延後禁用讓我們的身心障礙者真的能夠體會到政府能夠友善對待他們以上 謝謝好 還有其他委員要表示意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
29168.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
29198.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
所以我們是不是就依照行政院的提案通過行政院提案跟疫情委員是不是都一樣你們對一下 一樣嗎 一樣對啦 對啦 好啦 一樣所以就依照行政院提案與疫情委員的修正 提案修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
29199.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
29220.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
提案通過了 對不起 提案通過 抱歉繼續審查有委員王育民還有萬美玲所提38條之二是 不一樣嗎那不一樣 等一下 先對一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
29237.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
29265.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
主要是我們在這個倒數第二第二項跟倒數第三項裡面有關單位這個名詞我們把它改成機關刮鬍單位這個是配合我們法治體力所做的調整我覺得差別在第四項應該第四項是按照院版那我覺得第三項是按照我這邊的版本所以應該也沒差吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
29267.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
29281.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
就說我們我們只有堅持的是那個每月末參加那個勞保公保我們支持就是贊成我們的願板我們就對第三項有堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
29320.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
29332.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
跟主席報告第三項院版跟林委員版本是一樣的是沒有問題對其他不一樣的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
29347.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
29356.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
最低工資他也一樣他也是用最低工資 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
29372.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
29374.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
好 那我們就照行政院提案通過 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
29381.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
29402.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
第38條之二是來那針對第38條之二是我們王玉明委員跟萬美玲委員的一個提案主要是訴求公立的學校在沒有辦法在編制內甄選入曲或調派足額聲音障礙者的時候呢必須另行禁用具就業能力的聲音障礙的約用人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
29402.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
29425.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
或者是依本法的43條2項規定繳納差額補助費時其經費應由直轄市縣政府編列預算來支應那這個部分呢由於目前全國的公立學校2456家這2456家當中只有21家公立學校沒有辦法足額禁用 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
29425.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
29441.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
而且這21家的公立學校它是因為有聲音障礙的員工離職在離職後的一個這個補足的一個期間未及足額金融所導致的一個情形所以這個部分在整個實務上適用的案量非常少 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
29442.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
29468.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
第二個這個條文如果規定他的經費是由直轄市縣市政府編列預算支應的話這個部分會進一步影響我們公校在這個禁用生意障礙朋友的一個決心跟力道這部分也會引起外界質疑為什麼用公帑來做這樣子的一個經費的一個支應這個也會涉及到預算法的一個編制的一個相關的一個作業所以建立這個條文是不是可以維持不新增以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
29469.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
29479.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
好三分八秒之後我們就不不以爭定各位有沒有其他意見沒有好那我們就不以爭定欸那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
29499.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
29503.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
對啊對對對 剛剛就請他不能離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
29525.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
29530.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
請這個行政單位說明39條之一好不好這個有委員過意請提案還有範圍委員還有吳立華委員請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
29534.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
29560.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
先做說明沒關係三十九條之一的部分那是行政院版沒有提案那主要是郭育勤委員范雲委員和吳立華委員有提案那這個部分的話主要是針對各級政府機關公立學校公營事業在進入身心障礙者的時候要積極提供相關的無障礙設施設備那這個部分的話我們是覺得怎麼樣來尤其是在公部門的部分這個方向我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
29561.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
29573.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
比較支持的那只是文字的部分我們有一個建議可能再做一個些微的一些調整那我們有把這個文字現在有投影在螢幕上那也請各位委員來做一個參閱以上好 這個是不是就依照郭議員的提案嘛然後修正後 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
29589.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
29607.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
來予以增訂可以嗎 可以文字就照這樣好 謝謝我們先重新再宣告剛剛38條之二我們就不予增訂那現在處理39條之一就依照郭議員提案修正後予以增訂好 謝謝繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
29612.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
29637.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
行政院所提40條還有委員蔡英宇 郭玉琴蘇巧慧 吳立華李坤誠 張雅玲還有現行條文我們現在並案討論請行政單位做說明第40條主要是一個文資修正是配合這個基本工資調整成最低工資那這個各委員的版本都一樣那我們建議是不是就依照行政院版本提案通過 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
29637.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
29652.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
好 這個我們建議就依照行政院的版本來提案通過 好 謝謝繼續審查委員黃宏威所提事實條之一還有柯智恩還有黃孟楷那還有林倩琦來 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
29657.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
29670.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
有關王宏威委員 柯政委員 洪孟凱委員 林倩琦委員增訂第40條之一的部分那主要是在這個裡面都要求要提供在執行業務基本所具的友善資訊與通訊傳播系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
29672.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
29694.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
那考慮到這個部分其實現行的 現行各機關那已經有一些相關的法令包括身心障礙的職務在設計實施方式及補助準則或者禁用身心障礙人員作為要點或政府機關公務系統無障礙的適應已經都有些相關的規定所以我們是建議這個部分是不是可以免於增訂 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
29695.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
29710.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
那如果沒有 我們40條之一就不予增訂了謝謝那繼續處理院辦所提的42條那還有委員蔡玉玉 郭玉琴蘇巧慧 吳麗華還有李坤澄 張雅琳還有現行的條文42條 我們並要討論請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
29713.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
29731.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
行政院版第42條的部分主要是一個文字的修正也是一樣把基本工資修正為最低工資另外在授權事項的內容做一個文字上的增補然後能夠更為周延那目前看到各委員的版本基本上內容都相同那所以我們建議是不是可以依照行政院的提案來通過 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
29732.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
29748.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見我們就依照行政院的提案來通過謝謝繼續審查行政院所提四三條那還有委員蔡依瑜 郭育琴還有蘇巧慧 吳麗華 李坤城 張雅玲還有縣議長有四三條請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
29749.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
29777.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
行政院版第43條也是文字的修正那主要是把基本工資修正為最低工資那各委員版本基本上文字也都 內容大體上也都相同我們建議行政院的行政院版本通過 以上好 那我們 各位應該沒有其他意見啦齁那我們就依照行政院提案通過繼續審查行政院所第44條還有委員蔡衣宇 郭玉琴 林月琴蘇曉慧 吳立華還有李坤誠 張雅玲 現行條文來 請行政院單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
29778.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
29799.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
是那有關第44條的部分我們行政院的提案主要是針對這個最低工資的文字做修正那委員的提案的部分呢林月琴委員有特別在我們這個條文當中把身心障礙者就業基金的用途呢增加第三款跟第四款那包括協助身心障礙者依據其障礙類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
29802.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
29823.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
這個煤核適性工作與植物再設計的相關費用以及處理生意障礙者遭受就業歧視僱主不當對待等爭議事件之訴訟輔助費用那這個部分基本上也在我們原來的其他的這個可以使用的事項範圍但是委員特別把它細緻列出來這部分我們尊重委員的提案以上說明來請請郭寶寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
29828.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
29850.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
不好意思 針對林月琴委員的第44條第1項第4款增訂身心障礙就業基金用於處理身心障礙者遭受就業歧視 雇主不當對待等爭議事件是訴訟輔助費用這個部分因為目前衛福部是委託財團法人法律輔助基金會辦理身心障礙法律輔助專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
29851.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
29867.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
那这个部分已经就这个第四款的内容有做纳入但是他的来源的基金好像不一样他的基金来源是来自于公财基金所以如果这样定下去的话就会导致第一个就是说这个基金来源不同了 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
29868.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
29890.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
那第二個就是因為這個身心障礙權益保障法第43條規定這個身心障礙者就業基金的主管機關是直轄市縣市主管機關但一旦改由這個身心障礙者就業基金來支應的話那未來法律輔助基金會的部分他就必須要向不同的縣市去做請款 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
29891.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
29909.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
那這個部分可能對現行統一針對衛福部這個會來的比較不利那再來就是委員立法說明第三點提到該其受輔助資格項目與金額委由財團法人輔助基金會辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
29910.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
29930.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
那這個金額的部分目前衛福部委託法輔基金會辦理的這個項目啦資格啦還有這個經費都是都是由這個衛福部跟法輔基金會討論後又契約約定而不是直接交給財團法人法律服務基金會去辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
29931.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
29945.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
所以這個立法說明這樣定下去好像會變成說法輔可以自己決定那個金額所以大概我們在法律輔助這一塊司法院這邊有提出一些意見再跟委員報告請委員參佐謝謝好所以行政院希望是依照行政院的版本提案通過嘛對不對那委員林月琴有什麼意見要表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
29960.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
29989.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
當初我這邊會要提當然也是第一個考量我的第三項考量不同那個障礙類別有不同的工作特性跟支持需求所以甄列基金的一個用途用於比較積極就業媒合跟植物再設計的協助來幫助身心障礙者順利就業也讓僱主能夠持續平庸因為身心障礙者他基本上就業就是相對有個困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
29990.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
30018.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
當然我同意郭法官剛剛提的如果的確在立法說明假設是加一個委由財團法人法律輔助基金會辦理的時候這些項目那我覺得是可以去修正可是問題是原本前面我們本來就很期待因為他如果在處理身心障礙者遭受到就業歧視的時候雇主不當對待爭議事件的一個訴訟輔助費用如果剛剛郭法官講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
30019.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
30033.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
現在本來就有在協助那我覺得入這法只是因為我的說明有加了財產法人輔助基金會辦理的話那我們可以在立法說明再做調整可是我覺得這一項還是要去列入因為基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
30034.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
30062.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
身障的一個它的處境本來就跟我們一般的人不太一樣我覺得很多事實上需要政府來做協助而且另外一個就是說今天這次修法我們也真的希望能夠真的是真正道道地地符合CRPD的精神所在所以我們還是希望說這部分是不是可以加入我的那個第三款第四款跟第五款以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
30063.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
30090.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
這個我可以來說明一下嗎因為44條就在講前條身心障礙者就業基金之用途如下開宗平是這樣好那要怎樣請郭法官再補充那個跟委員報告這個對這個輔助費用法律輔助費用我們由國家來這個我們沒有意見我們的意見是在於說現在改成用這個身心障礙者就業基金會導致出跟現行用公財基金來講對 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
30092.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
30115.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
整個法服的運作還有這個財利運的保持其實來的比較沒有那麼穩定跟單純啦因為現在針對衛福部的話其實我們用公海基金法服跟他談的就是一個個一整個契約那就是一個很簡單的一個內容那一下子一下要用到生意上來的就業基金就必須去對各縣市了 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
30115.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
30123.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
他各縣市那個差異其實就會來的比較大那有沒有辦法當現在的這個維持的這麼完善我們其實有一點擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
30126.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
30149.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
那反過來講如果這些事實上是很基本的是身上團體夥伴們提出來的那如果以郭法官這樣的一個說明我就回過來問衛福部如果不是用就業精英在什麼其他裡邊真的有針對這樣子的一個協助我覺得反過來衛福部這邊有沒有可以做說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
30151.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
30164.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
來 署長跟委員報告目前對於身心障礙者的有關訴訟的輔助那本來衛福部這邊就有用公財預算有委託透過有委託法復請進回來做勞動部這邊也 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
30168.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
30193.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
這個也是用公務預算來請這個法輔基金會來做那但是他這個委託當然都是要經過一定的程序來處理那所以現行在運作上其實並沒有並沒有什麼執行上的特別的制裁那我們的建議是說因為這個對身心障礙者訴訟輔助的部分如果這個讓未來在訴訟輔助的部分他有更 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
30194.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
30217.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
有彈性的財務來源的話那我們是建議是說是不是也許可以先考慮就是在這個聯訓委員的條文的版本我們建議是可以考慮是可以把它保留進去不然的話將來會變成這個只有衛福部這邊單一的財源那如果一旦這個因為我們這個財源也是用這個公益彩券公益彩券的這個盈餘來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
30219.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
30244.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
所以我們是建議這個部分是不是可以就多一個其實在這邊委員的版本是讓未來這個訴訟輔助多一個委託的財務來源其實會比較有總體的財源會比較有彈性那當然剛才司法院的長官提到的是說對於法輔來講因為現在法輔如果是超過勞動部這邊的費用的話可能有這個中央一個單一的機關或者是他要針對地方政府不同的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
30245.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
30258.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
但如果總體上來說如果能夠讓身心障礙者有跟這個訴訟輔助有更寬廣的經費來源的話我們建議也許是可以考慮先條文先保留先保留在這個可以先納進來以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
30260.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
30274.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
所以法官的比較關注的應該是說因為我寫了那個立法說明財產法人法律輔助基金否則就業基金法官好像也關心就業基金不夠嘛就是還是勞動部這邊應該針對這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
30279.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
30300.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
所以如果那樣的話因為當時事實上會提出來也是團體們給的意見是說他們真的就像剛剛署長提的就是說是不是讓他們有一些裁員可以來協助他們只是說如果只是因為立法的那個說明我們事實上可以去做修正可是放在這邊的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
30302.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
30328.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
我剛疑問的是法官好像你不是勞動部嘛所以就不知道反正沒有請勞動部做說明我們比較擔心的是因為這個條文這樣寫那當然有可能他是增加了裁員從兩個變三個但是他這種寫法也有可能未來的解釋會成說身心障礙者就業基金是number one他是第一個要拿來用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
30329.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
30343.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
那會不會反而變成說後面本來存在的這兩個反而不願意這我不知道會不會有這個負面效應這個我真的不能夠確定因為這個是法律有明定的身心障礙者就業基金的用途就在這邊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
30344.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
30365.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
那我們也很擔心的就是說各個縣市的那個就業的這個基金的數額也沒有這麼充裕那如果委員還是認為說這樣子就是會比較適當的話那我們也尊重但是我還是要把我們當初我們的疑慮說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
30367.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
30394.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
那我覺得是不是請勞動部跟我覺得衛福部針對我這一項如果剛剛講法官針對於我放在就業基金裡邊這樣子會不會變現說說未來就是只有就業基金是唯一的那反而是衛福部不會針對他過去在處理這一塊提供這樣的一個訴訟費用的協助反而是沒有所以我覺得是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
30395.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
30423.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
兩邊做一個說明讓我們確定我認為真的要去做一個比較好的協助否則的話他們往往面對到這樣的問題的時候大家求助無門那如果有可以做這樣的輔助的協助的話對他們來講是幫助很大的以上來 副組長請說明剛剛一開始我們就講導動部支持委員的這個版本我們尊重對啊 不一樣他一開始就有講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
30425.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
30431.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
法官不知道在煩惱什麼那我修理法說不這樣所以勞動部有沒有法官剛剛講的說以後就是唯一你們變來源他剛剛擔心 他是為你們擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
30445.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
30472.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
目前在辦理這項業務的經費來源是來自於公務預算這部分我們本來就會照常編列他有他的恆定性那至於我們地方政府所收受的身障的這個就業基金他在收受以後如果這個有額度高低參差不齊包括六度比較多或者是我們會再來做一些這個經費上的一個額度的調整跟重分配所以這部分應該是還好那是不是就照我的版本通過只是我立法說明我會再做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
30476.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
30501.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
那我們就尊重委員的版本你確定尊重他尊重 只是要確定一下你確定你要這麼判如果用林委員的版本文字的話那個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
30502.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
30515.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
最後一項的那個金額的部分他的因為現在還是林委員的版本還是用基本工資可能至少要修成最低工資啊那個部分的文字會需要動我同意那個署長剛剛的建議那立法說明要不要再修 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
30519.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
30533.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
對立法說明是不是就直接我把那個後邊的那好其實該期受助資格頓耗項目跟金額因委由財團法人法律輔助基金會辦理這個把它拿掉OK好所以我們第44條就依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
30544.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
30562.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
領略群委員的版本修正後通過好謝謝 含含那個立法說明了好我們繼續處理第四 院版第四六條還有委員 蔡宇宇 郭育群蘇巧慧 吳立華 李坤整還有新一條文四六條我們並肯討論請 行政擔任來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
30564.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
30583.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
行政院版46條主要是這個依照法制作業體系就文字上面做一些整理那各委員的版本也是協助我們也是做文字上面的修正基本上不管在政策方向或者是提案的內容上面都和行政院的條文一致所以我們建議是不是可以就依照行政院的提案通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
30584.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
30600.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
好 這個各位應該可以認同 沒有意見那我們就依照行政院的提案通過第46條 那繼續處理張明第四章之一 那由委員換言羅廷維廖瑋祥還有王玉雲還有萬美玲 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
30610.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
30626.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
署長你比較快好不好各位委員所增訂這一張的部分在行政院的版本目前是並沒有去額外去增訂這樣的一個並沒有額外去增訂這樣的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
30629.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
30654.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
章節那第四章之一的部分那因為都是針對個人協助的部分有一個專 國園的版本都要訂一個個別的專章那行政院版本的部分的話我們大概是建議在這個處理的條文的建議我們會在第五十條之後有一個條文叫做相關的不同的處理所以我們建議這個部分是不是不予爭列以上好 各位委員來請盧縣立委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
30656.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
30684.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
因為這個專彰號就是新的嘛然後是個人協助的部分那我看國民黨黨團這邊很多委員有提版本所以我建議先提保留他們今天沒有出席我想看看能不能保留到明天好這個盧委員是建議保留請新單位這個部分有沒有先跟提案委員做溝通過了還是怎麼樣還是沒有溝通沒有溝通我就保留 有溝通沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
30685.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
30708.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
好 那我們就先行保留 好 謝謝那就一樣啦 因為這個是直接連續下來的 就容我這樣處理嘛有煥年委員的四七條之一 還有羅廷偉同四條之一 還有廖偉祥還有王玉民 萬美玲 均提四七條之一所以這個部分是不是就先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
30713.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
30741.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
保留嗎 各位有沒有其他意見 那我們就先行保留謝謝 一樣歡迎委員所提四七條之二 還有羅庭惟 廖偉祥這個四七條之二只有兩個只有兩位 三隊 對不起 三隊還有王 王議員是另外還是你們排錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
30748.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
30771.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
47條之二的部分的話內容的部分是只有廖偉強委員 范雲委員和羅廷委員 三位委員有版本所以這個也是保留吧然後再來處理47條之三也有范雲委員 羅廷委員然後廖偉強委員然後是對照過來是王玉敏委員的47條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
30777.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
30799.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
所以這個也是一樣要做保留好 一起保留至於處理羅庭委員第四條之四還有廖偉祥委員第四七條之四對照下來是王玉美第四七條之三還有萬美玲委員第四七條之三一樣保留嘛 對不對好 那去羅庭委員第四七條之五對照廖偉祥委員第四七條之五 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
30800.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
30823.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
一樣保留好 那委員羅廷偉是7條之6對照廖翔偉是7條之6那王毓民是7條之4還有萬敏玲委員是7條之4一樣保留好 繼續處理羅廷偉是7條之6廖翔偉是7條之6然後對照萬敏玲是7條之4還有萬敏玲委員是7條之4一樣保留好 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
30825.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
30839.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
委員羅廷偉是7條之6對照劉偉祥委員是7條之6還有王玉美是7條之4還有萬美玲委員是7條之4一樣保留那繼續委員煥雲所提是7條之4然後委員羅廷偉是4 7條之7台灣民眾黨是50之2 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
30847.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
30862.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
委員到韋翔是四七條之七還有委員王玉敏是四七條之五委員萬美玲是四七條之五所以一樣保留好那我們繼續處理第四章之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
30864.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
30882.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
第四章之二提案的委員包括范雲委員、羅廷偉委員、廖偉強委員、王玉敏委員和萬美玲委員一共五位委員有提案主要內容都是針對社區居住目前社區居住因為在行政院現行的條文裡面它是規範在現行條文第五十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
30883.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
30910.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
那所以我們建議這個部分因為他都是針對個人那從立法的體力來看我們建議是不是可以就不用不需要再單獨拉出來做增訂的動作那我們是建議不予增訂以上不過這個也跟委員報告這個部分還沒有跟委員來做過確認所以我們建議如果可以的話是不是也一併先行保留好各位有沒有其他意見我們就先行保留沒有意見就這樣先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
30911.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
30933.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
那一樣就繼續處理第四七條 委員歡迎所提四七條之五羅町委員四七條之八 台灣民眾黨五十之三 郭益勤委員五十之二還有廖翔委員四七之八 歡迎委員五十之二還有王玉敏委員四七條之六 那還有萬美玲委員四七條之六好 請行政單位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
30934.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
30956.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
這個部分的話也都是有關於社區居住的內容那我們行政院的版本呢因為他現在都是規定在依照三權法第51條授權訂定的個人照顧辦法裡面都已經有相關的條文所以我們會建議不予增訂不過這個部分還沒有跟相關的委員做溝通我們建議是否先行保留 以上好 郭委員OK嗎好 那我們就先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
30958.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
30971.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
也讓繼續處理是委員換言所提四七條之六委員羅廷偉所提四七條之九還有廖翔偉四七條之九那王一美四七條之七外名委員所提四七條之七請先當作說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
30974.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
31000.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
還是一樣保留這個部分的話也是跟前一條一樣我們建議先先建議先行保留好好謝謝那繼續處理蔡議員所提49條委員郭益勤所提49條還有換議員49條限期條49條弊案討論請請大家說明主席我的48條之一是不處理嗎你哪裡有48條之一要好好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
31003.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
31005.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
請別來添亂好不好來 49條請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
31010.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
31037.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
各位委員49條的部分行政院是沒有提案修正那主要是都是對於這個未來在申請這個服務的部分那能夠要求不限在他的我們現行的規定是沒有涉及時間的限制那各位委員的版本那有分別是規定在涉及地或者是居住地那這個部分其實行政的行政上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
31038.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
31062.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
我們現在都已經有要求各縣市那透過跨縣市的一個行政上的協助以及互惠那原則上就是由居所居住地的縣市政府來提供服務那所以這邊的話我們是建議就維持現行的條文這個不予修正以上好 我有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就維持現行條文 不予修正那繼續來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
31067.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
31093.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
50條有委員羅廷偉 劉建國 臺灣民眾黨郭益勤委員 還有何欣竹委員馬文君委員 廖偉祥委員林業勤委員 范瑀委員還有吳立華委員 盧憲一委員還有心情條文那當然有修正冬季第一案是盧憲一委員還有修正冬季第十案是林業勤委員還有修正冬季第十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
31095.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
31119.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
也是劉建國委員還有一樣18案也是劉建國委員好 請行政單位來做說明好 針對行政院版第行政院版是沒有提出第50條的修正案那針對各委員的版本大概主要修正的都包括有是否要甄列相關的服務包括像同台支持 個人助理另外在武力華文化禁用 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
31120.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
31136.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
等等各類不一樣可能輔具等等各類的相關的個人支持的服務的項目那另外武力華委員的版本以及馬文君武力華委員的版本則和 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
31138.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
31165.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
范雲委員的版本那對於這個服務的內容的部分也有相關的這個有甄列第二項的規定要依照當事人的意願以及需求而且明定直轄市縣市主管機關不得以任何理由限制身心傷害者去選擇服務的權利那我們針對各委員的提案的版本那這個部分除了委員的提案版本以外那我們召委的這邊也有一個修正的動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
31167.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
31185.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
我們基本上我們參考委員的修正的內容那我們這個以及招委這邊的一個修正的動議的內容我們做了一個建議的文字的版本那我們現在是有把它投影在這個螢幕上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
31187.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
31201.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
那其中在序文的部分那這個我們這個未來對於身心障礙者他的這一類個人支持的照顧的服務的部分那我們把參考委員就把 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
31203.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
31222.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
序文的部分我們念一下就是包括直轄市縣市政府主管機關因尊重身心障礙者之意願及選擇依需求評估結果辦理下列服務提供身心障礙者獲得所需之個人支持及照顧促進其自立生活品質社會參與及自立生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
31222.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
31238.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
那在底下各款的部分我們參考了林若晴委員的版本那我們甄列了第十項扶具服務那我們現在大概初步建議的文字就投影在螢幕上那請各位委員參考 以上好 來請盧縣立委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
31239.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
31262.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
版本就是說新增第二項因為原鄉地區的長照與身障服務常因人力不足難以落實所以新增第二項條文來強調結合部落文化與在地資源並優先禁用族與服務人員並且增加在地就業更能讓原住民身障者在熟悉的文化環境中獲得貼切的自力支持而非被迫送往都市機構上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
31266.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
31289.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
針對盧委員的這個版本的部分我們建議是不是我們可以準備一個附帶決議的文字那我們同仁這邊大概有出你一個部分如果適合允許的話是不是我們請委員這邊我們等一下提供一個委員請委員這邊過目一下那如果可以的話那我們就用附帶決議的方式來處理好 請提供給盧委員做參考來 請林月琴委員完之後再再換郭董事長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
31290.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
31315.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
我們2017年我們國家首次交CRPD的報告的時候國際委員就指出許多身心障礙者沒辦法在平等基礎上生活跟參與社會而被安置在機構高度依賴家人沒辦法選擇居住地點也缺乏日常生活的支持使他們處於隔離跟孤立的狀態所以這次很謝謝就是說能夠採納版本福居服務的確會讓他們可以走出戶外 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
31316.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
31336.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
然後在家裡在自立生活的支持其中就會變成是很重要的一環所以在這邊還是蠻謝謝的因為這樣子才不會跟第九第九跟第十事實上是還是有些連貫性的因為自立生活支持服務還是要有些去服務的來做協助以上 謝謝好 再請郭請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
31337.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
31358.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
好這一條其實我有特別那個自立生活服務的就是自立生活支持服務我是用自立生活服務這樣子的就是調整為這樣子的字眼那另外在這個同儕支持服務的部分好像也沒有沒有沒有納進去我看好像也有很多其他的委員有版本有這一條這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
31360.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
31376.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
那另外就是在就是除了增列這個同儕支持以外那還有就是各項服務要尊重這個身心障礙者自己本身的這個意願跟決定那這個部分是我的這個版本的內容以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
31378.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
31398.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
好來 請回應有關郭委員的意見那我們一個尊重身心障礙者意願的部分我們現在是有提到我們有納到我們現在建議的這個文字的第一項的序文裡面那這個有關在這個裡面各款的服務的部分那因為現行的條文在50條的第 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
31401.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
31422.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
第9款裡面我們現在現行條文是用自立生活支持服務那因為它在後面依照這個本法的授權的部分它授權的規定在寫在第51條那這個個人照顧的相關辦法裡面對於整個自立生活支持服務的裡面包括各位委員所關心的個人助理以及同儕支持的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
31423.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
31445.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
現在都已經 現在在這個個人職權都已經有寫進去所以我們會建議說這個從整個這個服務項目的架構來看的時候我們建議是不是在條文的部分就先不增列但是這個在將來在這個授權辦法裡面我們可以來做更細緻跟更完整的規範以上這樣可以吧好 謝謝好 那不是 林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
31454.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
31468.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
對啊 他說他有我的是完全一樣 你的還要修正他就有同儕之詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
31487.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
31501.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
依照劉建國委員所提修正動議及林業勤委員提議案修正後通過謝謝來繼續審查第50院版所提第50條之一那還有劉建國 臺灣民眾黨團 蔡議員 郭義勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
31505.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
31527.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
廖翔委員 林業勤委員48條之一 范玉玟委員50條之一蘇小慧委員也是50條之一那還有吳立華委員50條之一李昆城 張雅雲都是50條之一那修正動議有第9案林業勤委員還有第12案劉建國委員17案委員林業勤還有18案也是劉建國來請行政大會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
31531.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
31560.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
第五十條之一那行政院版的條文行政院的提案那主要是針對針對前面提到第五十條的第九款自立生活支持服務的部分因為這個是外界一直非常關心的事項裡面包括不管是個人助理或者是同儕支持這樣的服務所以我們在這條條文裡面我們進一步就把這個有關自立生活自立支持生活的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
31560.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
31577.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
做了進一步的一個內涵的部分做了一個產名我們希望要求對於做這一類自立生活支持服務的時候要能夠去結合包括福利 醫療 長期照顧等等各個面向相關的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
31579.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
31606.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
能夠來提供協助而且這一項服務提供的時候需要依照身心障礙者的需求評估結果並且有專業的人員來協助他去擬定他的自立生活計畫那這樣的一個自立生活的計畫在跟後面在提供服務的過程中直轄市的縣市政府要籌辭一個專業的團隊來去進行審查而且要讓身心障礙者有表達意見的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
31608.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
31629.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
那这个审查的过程中审查的这个专业团队也要包括了有行政机关的代表身心障碍者代表专家学者或者身心团以及身心障碍团体的代表让这个审查的过程是第一个是客观性专业性以及这个专业性的部分都能够有一定程度的兼具 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
31629.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
31655.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
那各個委員的版本的部分雖然續寫的方式是有一些不同那我們盡可能就是把各個委員的這個基本的一些核心的理念我們盡可能的去把它納進來那我們有一個建議的文字那現在有投影在螢幕上那這個部分也參考了我們召委的修正動議和這個林耀勤委員的修正動議我們研擬的一個文字在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
31655.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
31670.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
那針對這個在各委員的版本之中大概有幾個事項我們大概也會建議後續可能我們會在操作的時候我們會來做更進一步的處理包括現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
31672.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
31694.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
例如像身障跟長照服務中間怎麼樣去做一些整合那以及個人意願的尊重甚至服務時數的合給能夠有在跨縣市中間能夠有更一致性的一個原則和標準那這一類的議題的部分那因為它是比較操作面的事項我們未來也會評估是不是那怎麼樣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
31695.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
31711.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
服务的整合我们也会跟我们的长照的服务体系来做一些讨论的借阶细节的部分我们也会来做相关的检讨所以我们会建议这个部分是不是甚至书表的文件上面也能够做更清楚的规范 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
31712.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
31739.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
所以我們建議除了參考幾位委員的修正動力文字之外我們也會建議是不是我們再加上一個附帶決議的文字對於這一類的一致性的服務原則以及審查書表規範等等我們會提供一個附帶決議的文字版本如果這樣的處理方向是OK我們趕快就把附帶決議大概的文字我們來提供給各位委員來做一個審閱以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
31741.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
31759.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
好來請林業勤委員好也謝謝因為把我們當初的修正動議把日常生活納入裡邊了避免身障者被限縮在家外但我剛才也同意因為我的附帶決議裡邊也有提到就是應該不只是要把個人助理入法而且要避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
31760.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
31789.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
各縣市不同縣市有不同支持我們的服務助理小時的差異跟限制這一直來就是很嚴重的問題所以我覺得到時候討論我的附帶決議的時候我也希望說應該也是跟你們的想法一樣就是用附帶決議來明定個人助理的相關規定而且應由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關及身障者團體跟代表來共同定制這樣子才可以真正的去符合他們的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
31790.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
31819.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
而且對於密集需要密集支持的障礙者而言當然有時候遠遠不夠有些時候家庭會被迫要自聘移工來單戶照顧經濟條件比較好的當然就是能夠請外傭條件不佳的家庭就是只能選擇全日型的住宿機構安置所以這次在修這能夠把個人助理的相關的一些納入到法理編甚至附帶決議去做而未來我們還是希望到時候長照怎麼去搭配進來這也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
31820.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
31841.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
下一波要來做處理的因為否則遠遠現在各住60小時坦白講是不太夠的因為他們有些比較重度需求依賴那這樣如果60小時換算一天才兩小時那可能就是不夠的未來在長照的時候我也希望我們的衛福部要去做考量以上好 謝謝所以這條是新增的 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
31848.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
31876.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
然後五十條之一所以依照這個版本 各位有沒有其他意見OK好所以是只是我而已嗎 他們不是一樣一樣嘛 你們一樣嘛 對不對 好啦動議內容是一樣嘛所以就一樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
31877.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
31881.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
我要處理開會時間現在已經將近快到五點半那看各位的身體狀況都還好精神也都非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
31902.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
31927.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
沒有達到某種程度的這樣的我們期待讓新抓者朋友看見光明所以要不要繼續站下去我們還沒有過半我們目前還沒有過半難得這麼多人大家在這一起像過年前的團聚大家多多珍惜這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
31928.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
31929.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
這個需要專業委員的評估提供意見給您當參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
31942.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
31962.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
專業委員前面要加醫療 不然每一個人都是專業的那就提供醫療專業委員的評估我們這邊我跟盧憲醫師都是醫療專業委員那我看大家都面有菜色跟我們這個主席評估的好像不太一樣所以我們是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
31964.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
31991.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
建議就是跟當初我們主席所原定的5點半可以先休息到明天再審要以上意見提供主席參考 謝謝好那各位是不是要照這樣好 照這樣好好 我們繼續審查第院版51條然後委員劉建國提案 台灣民眾黨還有蔡議員 郭玉琴 委員還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
31993.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
32019.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
這個煥雲委員 蘇曉慧委員 吳立華委員還有李坤正 張雅琳還有先請條51條來 請請單位趕快說明行政院版第51條主要是搭配剛才有增訂第50條之一我們做一個文字的處理就是本官授權的部分的那個條式的指引的部分我們把那個前條 前條及前項服務那我們把它變成第50條及前項的服務授權的條文做一個文字的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
32020.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
32038.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
那各委員的版本的部分有的委員的版本和行政院版本大體上內容是一樣的那內容比較不宜有委員的自己的版本委員個別的版本的部分那有一些像吳立華委員的版本范雲委員的版本那是有在提案是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
32040.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
32063.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
再申訂再授權辦法在必要時要會同身心障礙團體及身心障礙服務團體相關的專業意見那因為這個部分我們考量在現在的原來在修正條文第十條之一這個已經有相關的有禁用的規定的部分我們建議似乎就可以已經有相類似的規範我們建議可以不用在這邊再做一個額外的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
32064.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
32089.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
那另外我們召委的提案在修正在第二項民定第50條的授權的辦法的部分那現在的話因為這個根據配合剛才的條文的文字的話我們建議已經可以不需要再針對這個第51條再去做相關的授權所以我們建議是不是可以就依照行政院版的條文來通過 以上好 各位委員有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
32090.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
32117.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
沒有 那我們第51條就依照行政院提案來通過好 謝謝還有4分鐘各位要不要再努力一條應該是52條是比較有嗎52條是比較可以嗎 可以喔國標一條好 來 謝謝大家就跟你講大家都是很有鬥志的為了我們的夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
32120.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
32138.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
來 第52條有樓庭委員然後蔡委員 國務卿委員 馬雲君委員 林月琴委員 范瑀委員還有蘇喬委員那還有縣請條件當然還有修正東翼第11案是林月琴12案是劉建國 18案也是劉建國來 請說明好 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
32140.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
32164.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
那這個部分的話行政院版是沒有提案那這個各委員的版本的話那主要都是針對比較多的大概都有針對包括像資訊通訊或者是無障礙運輸各委員的版本大概對於服務內容的禁用的部分大概都有些相關大概都有些相關的提議那主要的委員的大概有比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
32165.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
32191.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
需要注意的地方會在范雲委員 郭玉琴委員的盤本大概都有對口述影像的部分希望能夠把它納進來我們召委的部分也有一個相關的動議要把口述影像的部分納進來我們有參採了幾位委員的提案我們有一個建議的文字我們現在也有把它投影在現在的螢幕上主要是第52條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
32193.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
32220.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
在第三项开始那我们有甄列一些文字那我宣读一下第一项第三款所称公共资讯无障碍细指应对利用网路电信广播电视电影等设施者提供视听语等功能障碍国民无障碍阅读观看转接或传送等辅助補助措施那底下甄列一项 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
32221.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
32248.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
中央目的事業主管機關補助電影電視節目及其他視聽著作之製作因鼓勵製作口述影像那因為有增加一項的關係所以在後面原來是前項就變成前二項輔助及補助措施之內容實施方式及管理規範的事項由各中央目的事業主管機關定之那最後一項的部分那個同線性條文以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
32250.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
32251.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
來 國務卿委員 再來換您的請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
32252.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
32279.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
好 這個第一項第三款剛剛念的包含網路電信廣播電視電影那我這個我的版本這邊有多了一個串流平台啦我有多寫了一個這個串流平台那另外剛剛有特別提到中央目的事業主管機關補助電視電影節目以及其他視聽著作之製作那我這邊是寫應鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
32280.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
32290.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
那我這邊沒有意見啦 因為我是寫明訂啦那如果是要用鼓勵的方式的話我是沒有意見啦 尊重好 謝謝 請李愛琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
32294.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
32315.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
因為我的原本第三款第一項第三款是寫資訊及通訊傳播那扣合在第三項我的這部分就會變成是第一項第三款所稱的資訊及通訊傳播細子應對利用網路電信廣播電視還有電腦及智慧行動裝置等設施者 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
32316.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
32329.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
來提供視聽與等功能障礙國民無障礙的閱讀觀看轉接聯絡跟口述影像針對我的版本也是沒有再做回覆說明所以可不可以先來做回覆說明 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
32331.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
32347.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
跟幾位委員垂詢的部分那個有關郭委員所提到這個串流影音平台的部分那因為主要我們大概會建議是串流影音平台它其實一個是它就是簡單說它是一個貨架 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
32347.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
32374.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
它是一个货架那我们主要需要去处理口述影像的部分的话是针对里面货架上的影音的内容所以我们就在这个第一项第三款去提到的部分我们会优先去处理如果是货架的部分的话已经有利用网络电信广播那电视电影的部分的话只是针对内容的部分我们去把它做一个比较细致的文字处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
32374.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
32390.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
就是把貨架和內容的部分去做一個處理那串流影音平台的話基本上它還是一個利用它還是需要透過網路或者是電信如果貨架的部分單獨這個不管是APP或者是軟體的部分的話它還是需要透過這個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
32391.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
32409.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
所以我們初步評估是這個文字現有的這個我們建議的文字應該是可以包括委員所提到的這個部分那另外這個林委員所提到的是不是要用資訊及通訊傳播還是維持現行的公共資訊無障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
32410.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
32430.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
我们会是我们的初步的评估是说建议是因为如果公共资讯无障碍的话它的处理的部分的话它是可以第一个是它有效果文字上面它包含一个效果无障碍的这样的一个概念公共资讯的部分的话也可以去能够让 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
32432.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
32461.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
它只要是末端讓民眾能夠去取得的時候就能夠去把它含括進來這個大方向上我們都怎麼樣去讓能夠最廣泛的去把文字去把它含括進來這個大概是原來我們去處理的部分這個部分如果是涉及到設備的部分的話委員的再定義的部分也包括了像電腦或者智慧型行動裝備的部分這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
32464.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
32486.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
那因为它实际上它是因为我们在处理无障碍就是我们透过中间传输的网路所以我们是我们初步的评估文字上是可以连同现在的网路的这样的一个概念去能够把它连接起来所以文字上或许不一定要把它纳进去这个是我们初步的当时评估我们大概一个初步的想法跟委员报告好谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
32487.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
32503.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
來 李玉琴委員因為這個表頭有沒有看到說這一項本來就是要協助身心障礙者參與社會那有一個差異當然你是用公共我這是講說所有的資訊跟通訊傳播才會對應到電腦跟智慧行動裝置 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
32504.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
32529.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
為什麼要這個因為這些設備能夠進行聯絡的行為來確保我們身心障礙者便利獲取資訊而且能夠保持社交跟參與因為你前頭本來就講說要讓他能夠社會參與這是一個另外一個我要請你們再說明因為我有列第九款是住宅服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
32531.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
32546.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
為什麼要去增列第9款因為住宅服務是由住宅主管機關跟中央社會福利主管機關共同來制定身心障礙的住宅支持服務的實施計畫所以想說你們沒有列的考量是什麼來我這邊也補充說明一下請署長等一下一併討論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
32560.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
32587.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
第三項目的世界轉機關補助電影電視節目及其他視聽著作英明電製作口述影像之一一定比例我這邊這邊是並定期討論提升並定期檢討提升之你是主連提升之這還是有差異這個是有跟文化部溝通過好我補充這邊一併回應謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
32595.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
32621.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
這個部分因為會涉及到文字的部分那個文化部這邊如果OK的話我們配合召委這邊的文字去做調整這個部分我們沒有問題那這個月勤委員這邊所提到的那個可能稍微我可能剛才解釋的不是那麼清楚因為如果我們用現在條文字裡面看的話他提到的網路電信廣播電視等等這一類它其實是一個比較有一點是路徑的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
32623.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
32649.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
我們就沒有去特別在法條的文字上去處理它是用什麼樣的設備去通過這個路徑所以我們就沒有去把委員提案裡面所提到的電腦或者是智慧型行動裝備這樣的文字納進來這個大概是我們原來在考慮的時候大概是這樣子想所以就沒有把委員的文字放進來大概是這個意思也跟委員做一個補充以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
32652.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
32666.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
那這個住宅的部分那因為這一條規定的話是我們講的是這個這條本身規範的是一個社會參與的部分那在那個委員所提到的這個住宅的部分其實它大概比較需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
32667.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
32691.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
不管是租屋補貼或者是其他相關社宅進駐等等相關的保障那這一塊的部分其實大概性質上跟前面幾個其他相關的部分的話它是我們初步的想法是覺得它是和它的基本生活的關聯跟社會參與稍微有一點點我們是覺得在概念上稍微有一點點差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
32692.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
32714.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
所以我們最後是沒有拉進來但是這個問題住宅服務跟住宅服務的這件事情它是需要被處理這點是我們完全認同那只是到時候在相關這個現在住宅法或者相關的裡面這個我們會跟內政部一起來討論怎麼樣來幫身心障礙者能夠給他更好的服務跟給他更多的支持以上所以署長這樣講是說後邊會針對這一塊會在其他條次裡面去列嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
32724.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
32741.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
跟我也報告這個目前在生權法這邊我們是沒有那但是如果要的話我們會建議這個針對住宅的部分的話那個因為他是在內政部這個住宅主管機關的這個住宅的主管機關的部分所以如果這個部分要處理的話可能條文的部分是相對 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
32742.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
32765.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
目前是沒有比較沒有合適的相關的條文但是要這個我們是不是可以用一個委員的這個部分的話我們是不是可以用一個附帶決議的方式然後我們要責成我們跟這個住宅的主管機關怎麼樣來提幫我們身心障礙的民眾能夠有更多的支持我們就這個部分我們來研擬一個相關的附帶決議所以52條 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
32771.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
32793.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
我們來處理齁好可以嘿剛剛都是你在講的我們都沒有講話好你超過時間你都沒有注意到不好意思打斷所以這52條就依照劉建國所提修正後修正後通過來來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
32800.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
32827.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
你拿麥克風好不好你拿麥克風拿麥克風好請說運動部建議第52條第一項第二款體育活動改成運動活動謝謝你早說嘛好謝謝這文句就照這樣修正好謝謝好各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照這樣通過好謝謝好做一下決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
32828.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
32839.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
身心障碍者权力保障法部分条文修正草案等37案三位审查完均于明日早上9点继续审查本日会议到此结束现在休息谢谢大家 |