| IVOD_ID |
17212 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17212 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,26-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-19T08:32:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-19T13:21:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:49:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc831044d4eb4d2098d3d7714f303f762a0a219bd209750d2d618f8f8ea5acf4155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「衛生福利部組織法第二條、第五條及第八條條文修正草案」案等16案。
二、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持署組織法草案」案等14案。
三、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法草案」案等12案。
四、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「衛生福利部中央健康保險署組織法第二條條文修正草案」案等8案。
五、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例草案」案等8案。
六、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「國家中醫研究院設置條例草案」案等14案。
【詳見議事日程】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:00 - 13:21:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員11人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會來現在開會進行報告事項那宣讀上次的會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境委員會第一次聯席會議議事錄時間中華民國115年1月7日星期三上午9時至下午2時30分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1686.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1705.437 |
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地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員林月琴委員等27人列席委員林德福委員等10人列席官員衛生福利部部長石崇良等人主席莊昭齊委員瑞雄討論事項1 病案審查行政院罕經審議衛生福利部組織法第二條第五條及第八條條文修正草案等10案2 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1706.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1732.936 |
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病案審查行政院環境審議衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持署組織法草案等7案病案審查行政院環境審議衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法草案等6案病案審查行政院環境審議衛生福利部中央健康保險署組織法第二條條文修正草案等5案病案審查行政院環境審議國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例草案等4案病案審查行政院環境審議國家中醫研究院設置條例草案等10案 |
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1733.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1750.623 |
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本次會議有委員黃國昌等二十六人提出質詢委員邱振軍等三人提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二第一案至第六案均另定期繼續審查三委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會宣讀完畢 |
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1753.261 |
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1765.615 |
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請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏如果沒有錯誤跟遺漏我們議事錄就確定了接著我們來介紹大臥廠的委員跟應邀列席的官員在場有王正旭委員還有我們陳佩瑜委員 |
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1774.113 |
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1792.902 |
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廖偉祥委員 笑臉過眼睛來 委員介紹完以後 接著我們介紹應邀列席的官員有我們衛福部石崇良部長早 昨天我讓你們來那麼多 不能讓你們黏那麼多 |
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1795.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1801.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請參閱好不好還有行政院人事行政總署常務副人事長沈德蘭副人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1808.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1831.488 |
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我們其餘未介紹的列席代表請參閱名單我就不再一一來逐一介紹了並列入公報記錄了那本次的議程我們討論事項的排定繼續來並案審查行政院函請審議衛生福利部組織法第二條第五條第八條條文的修正草案等相關法案 |
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1832.168 |
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1851.875 |
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一共有六案我們前面在前逾115年1月7號本會期司法法制跟社會福利及衛生環境委員會第一次的聯席會議審查決議是報告及詢答完畢以後均另定期繼續審查那本次會議我們在併入院會副委的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1854.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1871.81 |
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新增提案源於今日繼續來進行併案的審查那伊莉我們先進行在併入的新增提案的提案說明發言時間就三分鐘我們是不是先請我們王正旭委員來做提案說明這不快給你回覆一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1885.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1905.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝主席主席還有各位同仁還有衛福部的長官謝謝主席針對衛福部組織法等六個主改的法案其中特別在國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例以及衛福部組織法而家屬的部分希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1906.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1932.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
提出兩個我認為在醫療權益跟兒少福利的重要議題所以利用這個時間跟大家做個提案說明第一就是醫療科技評估應該要明確的納入新醫療技術第二呢兒家屬的跨部會的協調權責應該要正式的入法有關於這個醫療科技評估納入新醫療技術的部分呢在行政院版國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例草案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1933.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1957.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
包括說醫療科技僅列出的這個藥品醫材 手術等處置的這個範疇實務上許多新的醫療技術可能並沒有完全的在包括在裡面以這個癌症有關所謂進階治療為例或者是BNCT就是膨脹值的補貨治療為例他們其實是結合了手術 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1958.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1983.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
也結合了放射源跟藥物的特性導致未來在主審的時候可能會造成一些困難所以我建議應該設置條例裡面第三條立法說明明確納入新醫療技術避免審查範圍受限而目前的醫事師委託醫策會審查的新醫療技術人體試驗裡面未來也應該討論是否整合到整個評估中心確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1985.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2012.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
業務的一致性否則的話不同的部會呢它會分別根據自己的權責做處理事實上很多的新醫療科技它是會橫跨不同的這些面向那第二個是有關兒家屬跨部會協調權責入法的部分新成立的兒少及家庭支持屬將整合保護師 社工師及社家屬的相關業務但過去兒童事務分散在各組裡面哪裡推動跨部會的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2013.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2040.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
是一個現實的困境若無明確的法源兒家屬將難以主導跨部會政策支援的整合所以應該參考內政部新住民業務範圍將衛福部組織法第五條修正草案中明文的增加兒家屬具備兒少事項的協調權責以上兩點關乎台灣醫療的前瞻性跟孩子成長的安全環見譴衛福部跟各位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2040.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2045.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
能夠將這個納入考量再度謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝王振旭委員提案說明接下來請廖偉祥委員來進行提案說明來 算不用跟你講一下 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2066.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2094.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
感謝我們的召委感謝主席這次的排案那衛福部這一次的組織法修正中我想大家也都非常關注而且是很重要的亮點莫過於將12年前裁測的兒童局重新納入體制設立兒少級家庭支持署然而本席關切的是兒家署未來定位為三級機關是否真的能有效發揮跨部會跨體系的橫向整合功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2095.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2114.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那我想關鍵也不僅在於組織是否成立更在於治理模式可不可以真正的轉型否則呢也難以務實的回應少子化與兒少發展的結構性挑戰那我想未來兒家屬也應該以跨域治理為核心那也建立制度化的橫向協調機制實質的串聯醫療社福教育與司法體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2120.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2136.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
避免政策各自為政資源零碎分散那本席也要特別提醒在醫療與社福的整合上相關的預算當然也必須要足夠和到位還有人員也要到位才能將早期介入與預防導向真正落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2138.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2165.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那另外在職長定位上兒家屬不應只有既有的業務的診病單位而應該成為政策創新的引擎所以青少年政策應該涵蓋身心健康和風險行為預防與社會參與那家庭支持與育兒支持則需要回應不同生命階段與多元家庭形態提供連續且可進的支持服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2166.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2175.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
最後所有政策目標能否落實當然仍然取決於人力預算以及整體的制度設計是不是都有到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2175.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2198.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那兒家屬的正式編制的人力與年度預算規模為何然後成立後呢國家整體兒少相關預算佔中央政府總預算及GDP的比例是否定有明確的成長目標與其成也是檢視政府對兒少權益長期承諾的關鍵指標好 那謝謝感謝我們的主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2200.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2226.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝廖委員 韋翔的提案說明接下來請陳培宇委員來做說明你剛有暗嗎 今天嗎上次你已經 你有講過就好 反正你考察好大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2228.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2252.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
來 我們提案說明已進行完畢現在我們就來進行討論事項討論前我先請議事人員一併來宣讀討論事項六案當中新增的提案的條文宣讀時間才會六分鐘如果有收到新的修正動議我們就一併來做宣讀宣讀以後我們馬上要來主案進行討論我們請宣讀條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2257.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2284.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
討論事項第一案 衛生福利部組織法 瓜湖十一委員吳麗華等提案第二條 除將第十條條文第十款條文中的與修正為及其餘各款均同行政院提案 第五條除將第二款化妝品質管理前的頓耗修正為與第四款刪除生育照護四個字 第五款後段修正為五 兒少及家庭自治署規劃與執行托育照護 早期療癒兒童及少年之福利與權益保障 醫療照護 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2285.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2304.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
健康促進心理健康促進及家庭支持服務事項並增列第7款其原住民健康照顧署統籌規劃並推動原住民族健康促進文化安全之醫療照護強化原鄉醫療資源部件並辦理健康不平等之改善及其相關調查研究事項外 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2304.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2329.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
其餘同行政院提案 瓜虎十二 委員王珍旭等提案同行政院提案 瓜虎十三 委員張雅玲等提案除將第五條第五款修正為五 兒少及家庭自治署規劃與執行托育照護 早期療癒兒童與少年福利及權益保障 輕職教育與家庭支持服務並統籌兒童與少年之健康促進預防保健與醫療照護相關政策 其餘均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2330.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2356.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
瓜湖十四委員王宏威等提案條文均同行政院提案瓜湖十五委員徐曉欣等提案同行政院提案瓜湖十六委員劉建國等提案除將第五條第五款修正為五兒小及家庭支持署規劃與執行托育照護早期療癒兒童少年福利與權益保障家庭支持服務健康促進事項及因應少子化政策規劃外其餘均同行政院提案討論事項第二案衛生福利部兒小及家庭支持署組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2357.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2382.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
8.委員王森旭等提案 同行政院提案9.委員張耀林等提案 除將第二項第12款分別修正為2.兒童少年保護性剝削防治性侵害防止安置與照顧政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之原定12.兒童及少年偏差行為輔導之規劃整合統籌及跨機關政策協調及第6條修正為本法實行日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2382.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2392.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
由行政院以命令定之外 名稱及其餘條文均同委員羅廷偉等提案 瓜湖市委員汪洪偉等提案 瓜湖市委員徐曉欣等提案均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2393.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2417.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
瓜胡12 委員李燕秀等提案 名稱及第1條 第2條序文及第1款均同行政院提案 增列第2款生育促進友善環境與養育等少子女化對策之規劃 第3到6款同行政院提案2到5款第7款修正為期兒童少年醫療健康促進預防保健防止虐待與疏忽防治政策之規劃 第8 12 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2419.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2447.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第八至十二款同行政院提案 七到十一款 第三條至第六條均同行政院提案 括弧十三委員廖偉祥等提案 除第六條修正為本法事情日期由行政院訂之外 名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案 括弧十四委員劉建國等提案名稱及第一條均同行政院提案 第二條第一款至第四款默劇的及前均增加一個逗號 其餘文字同行政院提案 五 兒童少年遭受不當對待暴力與虐待之 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2448.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2474.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
之預防防止早期介入及跨體系保護政策之規劃推動與執行並嚴定相關法規六 兒童少年遭受霸凌歧視或其他侵害及身輕發展行為之預防防止及諮詢支持與通報體系之規劃推動與協調七 因少子女化趨勢營造支持結婚生育及育兒之社會環境並就兒童及家庭支持相關政策進行整理規劃推動與協調第八款中型支援提案第五款第九款默劇的都號修正為即 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2475.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2491.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第十款同行政院提案第七款十一 兒童少年福利機構及兒童少年與家庭支持福利服務事項之監督輔導及考核十二 兒童少年與家庭支持業務資資通訊應用發展國際合作及交流第十三款同行政院提案第十一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2492.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2520.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第三條至第六條均同行政院提案 討論事項第三案 衛生福利部長期照顧及發展署組織法 括弧七委員王珍旭等提案 同行政院提案 括弧八委員張雅玲等提案 除第二條第一款與規劃後增列研究兩個字之外 名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案 括弧九委員王鴻衛等提案 括弧十委員徐曉新等提案 均同行政院提案 括弧十一委員廖偉翔等提案 除將第六條修正委本法實行日期由行政院定之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2520.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2538.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案括弧十二委員劉建國等提案同行政院提案討論事項第四案衛生福利部中央健康保險署組織法括弧六委員林月琴等提案第二條括弧七委員王珍聚等提案第二條及括弧八委員徐小新等提案第二條均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2539.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2564.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
討論事項第五案 國家醫療科技評估中心實質條例 括弧五委員林苑晴等 括弧六委員王珍旭等 括弧七委員徐小青等 括弧八委員劉建國等提案 致名稱各張章名及條文均同行政院提案討論事項第六案 國家中醫研究院實質條例 括弧十一委員羅廷偉等提案 足將第四條第一項修正為本院辦理前條第一款業務的附設中醫研究教學醫療機構 其名稱各張章名及條文均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2565.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2589.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
括弧十二 委員王珍區域等提案 同行政院提案 括弧十三委員張雅玲等提案對照委員中加病等提案除第五條第一項第三至四款及第二項為同行政院提案及第九條第二項修正為政府機關代表之董事監視因應職務進退不受前項續併次數制限制依第六條第一項第二款之第四款及第七條第一項第二款之規定聘任之董事監視任期間滿錢出缺者由監督機關領選 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2590.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2618.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
提請行政院院長補聘之其任期至原任者之任期屆滿為止第十五條第一項及第二項分別修正為董事監視應遵守利益迴避原則不得利用職務上之權利機會及或方法塗抹本人或關係人之利益其利益迴避之範圍及違反實質處置由監督機關定之董事監視相互間不得有配偶及三金等以內血清陰性之關係第十六條第二項目據修正為行為人應對其負損害賠償責任第十九條序文刪除及院長三個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2618.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2643.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
第二項第一款默劇增列有確實證據 第三款前段修正為三本院當屆年度績效評鑑第七款條文中的時期修正為十六 第二十七條第七項的返還修正為歸還 第三十二條第一項前段修正為本條例實行前衛生福利部國家中醫藥研究所現有編制內依供人員相關任用法律任用人員與機關改制 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2643.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2666.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
之日 隨同移轉本院繼續任用者 第二項修正為前項修正 前項繼續任用任用人員中 人事及主計人員之管理與其他公務人員同 第三具聚首增列前二項三個字 第三十九條默劇修正為第三十七條及前條之規定以外 其名稱 各項照明及條文均同委員 專家兵等提案 括弧十四委員徐曉清等提案 同行進行提案 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2671.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2699.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
繼續宣讀修正動力部分討論事項一共兩件目前收到兩件修正動力一第五條對照行政院版第五條處第五款中規劃與執行托育照護修正為規劃頓耗執行與協調托育照護外與未修正提案人王正旭等人修正動力二 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2701.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2730.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
第五條對照行政院版提案除第六款修正為社會發展及長照署外與未修正提案人林月琴 連署人等人討論事項第二案共兩件修正動議一第三條對照行政院提案除比照檢認第十三指等等至三處外與 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2732.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2760.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
委修正提案人黃國昌等人討論事項第二案修正動議二第二條修正文字請參閱書面資料提案人林月琴等人討論事項第三案修正動議共兩件修正動議一第三條對照行政院提案除比照檢驗第十三等值等或或 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2761.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2780.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
等文字刪除外與未修正提案人黃國昌等人導入事項三修正動力二第一條修正將修正為社會發展及產造屬外與未修正提案人林月琴等人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2798.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2822.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
條文宣讀完畢我們現在來進行討論討論事項第一案就病案審查行政院函請審議衛生福利部組織法第二條第五條 第八條條文修正草案等16案請問在場的委員是不是要先進行大體討論或者要直接進入諸條審查直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2825.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2839.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好啦 那就直接來進入主條審查繼續來進行主條討論那本案是部分修正一共有 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2840.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2853.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
要處理的是三條那第二條行政院的提案還有委員等 我再加下去這2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15個提案那請問在場的委員有什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2866.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2874.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
來 范雲委員 主席 我有一個修正動議不知道是不是已經發下來了 好 好 好像還沒有發下來 等一下好不好 現在在經歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2902.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2922.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
你修正的範圍你的也要先宣讀我們現在先宣讀好不好還是要宣讀請宣讀宣讀衛生福利部修正動力3 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2928.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2953.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
第二條除第四款修正為婦女權利保障婦女福利服務社會參與及家庭暴力性侵害性騷擾防治與其他服務保護服務業務之政策規劃管理監督推動執行及相關法規之原定外與未修正提案人陳佩瑜范雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2954.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2957.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
等人宣讀完畢繼續宣讀討論事項一修正動議事第二條對照行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2988.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3012.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第六款修正為護理政策法令之規劃管理監督及研究第八款心理健康精神疾病防治相關政策與物質成癮防治政策規劃管理及監督增訂第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3015.165 |
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本法實行前本部原聘僱用之約聘僱人員及約聘僱用之行政助理於本法實行後原任職之單位經裁測或整併者均列測管制繼續任原職並依原適用法令規定之標準及原聘僱用計畫繼續辦理至離職或退休時為止 |
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3044.107 |
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3073.2 |
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提案人陳昭芝等人繼續宣讀修正動議修正動議第三案修正動議三第二條修正文字請參閱書面資料提案人林月琴等人繼續宣讀修正討論事項第五案修正動議一第一條 |
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3074.97 |
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3095.504 |
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對照行政院提案為促進全民健康與福祉針對衛生醫療相關政策應用醫療科技評估方法作為合理醫療資料資源配置與健康政策決策之依據特設國家醫療科技評估中心以下檢證本中心並制定本條例 |
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3096.633 |
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3116.105 |
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本中心應結合醫療科技評估方法學識證基礎及社會倫理價值並建立具可科則性治理與監督機制第3條修正文字請參閱書面資料第6條 |
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3128.039 |
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3139.195 |
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第二項修正委不得於董事總人數三分之一提案人陳昭芝等人 宣讀完畢 |
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3142.591 |
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3165.211 |
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好 我們現在剛剛所宣讀的有行政院還有一共本來是15後來又增加了范雲等4人所提修正動議還有程昭芝等3人所提修正動議現在是不是請機關來做一個說明請我們衛福部 石部長 |
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3165.711 |
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3191.642 |
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好 主席跟各位委員那這個我們先討論到組織法的部分那麼第二條主要是因應我們這整個這一次的主改業務的移動所以我們修正了第二條的執檔內容那麼原條文裡面有關生育及托育照護政策我們會移到未來的兒少數所以在第二條裡面的予以刪除 |
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3192.262 |
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3211.273 |
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那麼長照服務跟早療那麼分別會移到長照會移到這個長期照顧及社會發展署那早療的話也是到兒少署所以我們這一個原本條文的第7款那麼我們也把它做了修正 |
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3212.653 |
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3240.183 |
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那這個其餘的委員的版本裡面呢那麼有關於健保及國民年金這是林業勤委員跟王毓民委員的版本那麼因為這個國民年金跟健保的監理仍然留著所以我們條文把監理留下但是呢有關於全民健保的法規政策規劃則移到了這個健保署所以我們這個 |
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3241.503 |
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3265.728 |
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建議按照行政院的版本來來通過那至於有這個核心存委員提到文字在社工人力配置因為在我們第三款就有社會工作社會資源社會社區發展所以已經包含在人力裡頭那麼建議也維持這個行政院的版本以上另外林月琴委員有 |
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3266.468 |
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3295.3 |
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特別提出這個所屬中醫藥研究跟這個司法精神研究因為我們這一次並同成立國家中醫研究院的行政法人所以我們建議這個不需要再列在這個所屬我們已經調整所以已經沒有所屬的國家中醫藥研究所了所以這個一併也刪除建議維持這個行政院版本以上說明 |
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3297.008 |
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3316.899 |
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好 謝謝 石部長說明行政院 衛福部現在已經說明完畢了那接下來我看一共17個委員的一個提案石部長您知道 我就參照您行政院當然很多裡面大同小異77個跟你們合夥的 我就去做一個版本 |
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3323.538 |
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3346.631 |
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來 您整理一下有一個版本是不是要發下去還是說我們投在這個螢幕上給大家看一下我看要發下來還是要發下來好 那就趕快印一下先給那個現場的委員因為你17個版本你這不整合一下一定是 |
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3354.48 |
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3355.762 |
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那是不是我們在場的委員來了針對這第二條沒有什麼要來做這先走手就先歐一姐來 范雲委員 |
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好 謝謝昭緯那這邊我有一個修正動議主要是關於那個本部長裡下列事項的第四項那原本是家庭暴力性侵害性騷擾防治與其他保護服務業務之政策規劃管理及監督那我的修正動議是在前面加幾個字婦女權益保障 頓號婦女福利服務 頓號社會參與及後面就是原來的家庭暴力等等然後在監督之後再加上 |
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3403.46 |
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3429.456 |
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推動執行及相關法規之嚴定為什麼要這樣提大家知道說我們其實行政院裡面有個性別平等處可是他完全都沒有是說辦法執行就是直接到業務的部分他只能做管考有業務明確的其實就只有衛福部過去放在第三級的婦女福利的與政策規劃組 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3430.797 |
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3450.265 |
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那大家婦女團體感覺到說長期婦女福利業務在衛福部當中雖然有可是處於一個比較邊陲的位置那依照過去在社家署下面的統計現在的婦女福利科其實只有7個員額那業務也只有占社家署的公務預算的0.12% |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3452.706 |
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3468.02 |
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在公益彩券的回饋金中占比只有6.81%我們是非常肯定這一次衛福部的改組能夠更重視兒童的兒少相關權益還有長照3.0這非常的重要也是賴總統的政見但是 |
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3470.962 |
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3493.975 |
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我們也會擔心說有些團體就是會擔心在三級機關底下的其中一個組別那沒有辦法改善長期資源不足這個議題在衛福部裡面好像比較邊緣化而且擔心長照未來是重中之重會不會更邊緣化那當然也是有團體覺得也許放在長照署這裡是好的 |
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3494.335 |
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3508.271 |
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不過大家整體的共識不管怎麼想大家就是希望提升人力預算以及就是婦女福利跟婦女權益的議題在衛福部當中可以更主流不要太邊緣化 |
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那根據中央行政機關組織基準法下面各司底下可以設4到8顆那署底下各組只有3到6顆所以我這邊有幫我們一些婦女團體大家提一個案子就是除了社家署下面的婦女福利組之外希望能夠 |
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3528.195 |
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婦女權益跟婦女福利跟保護私合併提升到二級機關當然也要跟大家講就是說有團體也擔心說那這樣子署這邊是不是就無法執行了所以我想 |
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大家都有這個憂慮但是共同的看法就是提升成績 提升人力跟資源所以請衛福部待會兒是不是能夠說明一下就是放在署底下的主跟放在私底下各自婦女相關的業務會有幾個科會有多少人那我也這邊也要肯定社家署過去大力支持督導地方政府 |
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3566.937 |
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3583.805 |
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其實各縣市包含我們主席在內的這個屏東跟台東其實都已經在它過去這個社會福利的相關的規劃中出現很多跨領域的跨局處的方案譬如說中高齡女性成立照顧工作合作社 |
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身心障礙母親的育兒支持部落婦女經濟賠利還有未成年懷孕母親的創業支持只是這些方案好像還沒有機會能夠更滲透更成為縣市政府或者是全國性的政策所以我們覺得這些很好的過去衛福部下面的婦女福利的相關業務是不是能夠在這個改組的過程中在私的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3612.148 |
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3625.472 |
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有一些不同的名稱包含婦女權益及保護司或是婦女權與安全司希望能夠多一點點讓大家有凝聚共識的機會所以今天有一個不情之請希望朝偉說這一條因為我們婦女團體快要有共識 |
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3628.973 |
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3644.152 |
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但是共識就是我們有絕對的共識就是要增加人力預算跟那個層級那可是關於就是說是完全移動到私或者屬還是有一些不同意見是不是能夠先行保留因為 |
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3644.953 |
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在第二回合的時候或者是委員會協商的時候那大家能夠有一個更清楚的方向等到衛福部能夠有更明確的說明因為這一波改組就是婦女團體知道的時候時間點比較晚一點那這邊也先跟召委還有大家還有跟部長就是表達一下我們對這個議題的關切以上 謝謝 |
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3668.779 |
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3681.944 |
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這條一定跟您保留 您的意見都不一樣跟您提案說明都不一樣再來請鄭天才委員也表達一下不同的意見我等一下就先暫保留了好 召委 各位委員還有我們衛福部及各機關 |
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3684.305 |
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這個有關第二條會跟這個後面的第五條有連動關係這個盧縣衣委員跟本席共同提案的條文裡面就是特別針對原住民族的部分 |
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那因為長期以來我們一再的從過去的這個衛福部的組織法我們就希望這個要求這個衛福部能夠重視原住民族的健康醫療各方面 |
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3715.939 |
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3733.798 |
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所以我們一直希望能夠提升相關的層級但是始終都沒有辦法列在這個衛福部的連一個師都沒有辦法所以盧憲一委員跟本席事實上還有武理法委員也有提案 |
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3735.019 |
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這個希望能夠將另外成立這個原住民健康照顧署這個部分因為事實上就原住民族的健康的議題大家都很清楚包括我們的生命這個平均移民都差距都非常大所以這個部分是會跟第二條或跟第五條都有聯動的關係所以在這邊特別說明希望這個衛福部能夠支持希望各位委員能夠支持以上 |
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3766.322 |
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3773.015 |
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第二層委員再來在黃玉明委員第二層委員來 你先 |
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3776.294 |
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3804.22 |
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你們要不要 我來 請因為我要去質詢好 謝謝岳勤委員有關於這個第二款的部分行政院版的修正他把全民健康保險及國民年金業務之監理他改成是這樣子原來其實是衛福部應該要負責全民健康保險國民年金財務之政策規劃管理及監督雖然他提案說明有寫但是其實我們這邊是修衛福部組織法的第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3805.18 |
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3824.093 |
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那你說這個健保署這個有一些業務移到健保署但是TOTO你是衛福部所以在這個組織裡面第二條你的所有的職長裡面我覺得應該是要維持原來的現行的條文它涵蓋的面向才是比較廣 |
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3824.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3842.394 |
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那至於之後你說那個在中央健保署有分工他會做更多的規劃我覺得那是另外一回事所以我的意見是原來第二款應該維持這個本期提出來我提出來就是原來的現行條文因為畢竟全民健保國民年金有關財務 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3843.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3864.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
跟政策規劃管理還是很重要的一環好 謝謝王一鳴委員我們再發言一位我知道你們都有你們的意見要表達我聽了四位 四位意見都不一樣了那這個條文 大家你們不用煩惱等一下我就暫保留了衛福部再去溝通看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3865.593 |
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3882.687 |
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這個林業勤委員你發言完畢以後我們就進入下一條因為這一條沒有共識前面就每一個人就已經有五個人不一樣了請林業勤委員來發言好因為剛剛范委員提到說要在這邊第四款去放婦女權益保障跟婦女福利服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3883.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3900.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
社會參與這一定要有點跟合併我們在長髮署的時候要做討論嗎如果婦女放這邊那長髮署就要把婦女移開來我覺得我還是要幫團體表達意見了有其他婦女團體是認為要改再發第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3904.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3916.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
基於幾個理由 認為應該要去調整原來主改的邏輯都是用人口別那你現在又把婦女拉到功能別那邊跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3917.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3939.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
保護放在一起似乎跟這次主改的整個邏輯好像沒辦法切合因為兒少然後身障長照婦女一個放在家屬一個放在我們的長發屬那現在又要變成把婦女單純拉出來這個用人口別又跟功能別併在一起大家婦女團體也會擔心說那這樣子會不會產生第二個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3941.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3948.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
婦女福利的整個的原本希望以他們為主體的就會不見為什麼當然你說放在那邊會主體不見可是本來在那邊是三個主體先來到這邊的話也會擔心的是跟保護綁在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3955.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3975.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
怕婦女只剩下保護的這樣的一個功能所在就是說那婦理服務的權益倡導跟婦理服務到底要不要做第三個大概因為對於他們來講的話就是希望整個交織性的服務門檻要降低為什麼因為到時候婦女對接在高齡對接在身障的話放在長發屬會 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3976.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3987.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
是理想的這是這一塊主張所以我也同意剛才趙薇講的就是整個先保留因為否則的話現在馬上就要決定一個是放在這邊還是等一下在長髮署討論以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3990.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4017.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我是要給你們解釋 不然我就要保留你們大家的意見差距那麼大因為本來是說林若晴講完可是因為成昭之委員他有提修正動議我等成昭之委員來 請你發言簡單講一下就好了因為意見差距太大了我等一下就先暫時保留然後機關去溝通看看有機會的話 第二輪再回來好不好 請成昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4019.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4047.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
因為這次修這個維護部的組織法我想這個很重要一點是在請看我的修正動議在員工的部分我們再徵修一條就是說本來是寫其他有關衛生福利事項我們這個地方我們希望能夠徵修一條在本法實施前本部原聘僱用之約聘僱人員及原約僱用之行政助理於本法實施後實行後原任指示單位經裁測或整併者 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4048.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4062.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
軍列冊管制繼續任原職並依原適用法令規定之標準及原聘用計劃繼續辦理治理職或退休時為止我們希望部長能夠就這個事情做一個說明您的員工啊您的員工陳情這件事是 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4074.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4089.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
按照過去內政部組織好幾個好幾個部會機關他們在做這個組織法的修正書都提掉都適用這一條所以這次我個人認為是衛福部漏掉了漏掉了這個部分報告委員這一點因為這個部分這不是詢問啦這不是詢問啦這陳昭之委員的發言謝謝陳昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4104.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4112.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
第二條這個意見就差距太大了那是不是我們請因為衛福部剛也提出了一個修正那你一個條文那按照我們在場委員的意見其實有很多不同那也是你的修正的一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4123.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4131.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們看看等一下有沒有辦法溝通完取得共識再來提出我們就先暫保留回頭再來處理那也請衛福部去做一個溝通那我們先來進行第五條第五條我們也請衛福部先來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4141.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4164.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
跟委員說明第五條我們是新設這個刺激機關那個兒少第五款兒少及家庭支持署那原本的行政院的條文呢是指規劃與執行托育服務早期療癒兒童少年福利與權益保障家庭支持服務及健康促進事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4165.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4183.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那這個幾位委員特別有提到希望這個未來這個兒少署還能夠有一些包含這個生命統計包含預防保健醫療照護等等業務的統籌所以我們有建議把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4186.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4206.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
職長的文字稍微做一個修正在我們發下去的建議條文裡面呢那麼讓這個兒少及家庭支持署呢那麼我們重新修正文字為規劃與執行托育照顧早期療癒兒童及少年福利權益保障家庭支持服務事項分號 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4208.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4232.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
統籌兒童及少年之生命統計健康促進預防保健及醫療照護相關政策那麼這個已經採納了幾位委員的意見我們把它包含林月琴委員包含這個吳立華委員等我們已經把它納進那麼另外在國民健康署的部分我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4232.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4261.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
希望借這個機會也修訂一個文字那麼我們把這個生育照顧把它擴大一點那麼成為生育健康所以我們建議修正的文字是這個國民健康署規劃與執行生育健康國民健康促進及癌症與其他非傳染病之防治事項那以上的說明再請委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4262.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4281.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
來 王振旭委員好 謝謝主席謝謝剛剛部長的說明那有關於第五條裡面第五款兒少跟家庭支持署的部分那早上在做提案說明的時候也特別強調為什麼需要把這裡面的內文再加上協調這兩個字這個協調的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4285.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4314.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
位置就放在剛剛出了部長所說明以外在規劃頓耗執行與協調托育照護等等那之所以會這樣的這個期待跟希望能夠把協調放進在這個兒童特別放在這個兒童及家庭支持署裡面就是有鑑於我們的托育照護早期療癒兒童少年福利跟權益的保障家庭支持的服務健康促進事項業務真的非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4314.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4338.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
多的部會都會受到影響包括教育部法律部司法院內政部等等那以前就是因為我們相關的單位成績真的非常的不足跟其他的單位做互相的協調所以我們才希望能夠把協調這兩個字放進來那其實這是參考包括內政部組織法第五條新住民事務政策是協調明文規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4340.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4362.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
由新住民發展署主責教育部組織法第五條協調學校教育事項也明文規定由國民及學前教育署主責另外在環境部組織法的第二條交通部組織法第二條及數位部發展組織法第二條等部會的組織法都有將協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4363.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4388.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
全責明文入法這範例所以才會修正第五款的這個文字也就是說我們在修正動議裡面特別將第五條的第五條的第五款有關兒少跟家庭支持署裡面把協調這兩個字能夠明文入法以上請各位委員支持也請部長支持謝謝好 謝謝王政帥委員再來我看先給七位 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4389.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4417.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
立下姓阿貴碗天才阿貴碗吳宗憲委員來 另外請委員好 我的那個第六款這邊那衛福部原本寫的事實上是長照及社會發展署那我認為應該把它修正是社會發展及長照署因為這樣子會有比較有助於正確認知該署是要以社會發展為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4418.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4419.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
为基础然后长照服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4448.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4477.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
及長照署會比較合理以上謝謝好請鄭天才委員好有關這個第5條的部分剛才本席也在第2條的時候也特別提到這個原住民族的健康醫療照護各方面都是跟這個一般這個非原住民的差距非常的大尤其是我們很多都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4478.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4503.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
偏鄉地區相關的醫療各方面更是需求很多但是一直沒有辦法達成我們剛才也剛才我也提到這個盧憲英委員跟本期共同的提案還有吳立華委員也都有提案針對這個原住民族的健康照顧應該要另外成立一個署所以在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4505.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4531.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
第七款裡面特別增加原住民健康照顧署來規劃以執行原住民主健康促進文化安全醫療照護原鄉醫療資源部件健康不平等改善等相關的這些包括相關的調查研究所以這個部分也請這個衛福部以及各位委員能夠支持以上好 接下來請吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4532.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4558.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
好 謝謝主席我想法律的規定本來都是環環相扣不是說單一個法條所以我現在提的一個東西就是它可能還會牽涉到組織法但我盡快把它講完因為我剛看了一下我們第二條的規範我們現在在講第五條但第二條的規範裡面我發現就是有很多東西是羅列在各個單位的業務範圍下 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4562.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4579.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那所以說譬如說我們衛福部我們剛第二條有提到衛福部的那個事項有把它列舉成什麼兒少家庭長照等等的那我們今天講到第五條的時候第五條我們有一個第五款是新增兒少及家庭支持署 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4580.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4604.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
但是我現在的一個問題就是說因為這個兒少的保護其實牽動了蠻廣甚至連包括到我們現在國安問題的少子化少子化可能都會跟這個兒少的支持都會有關聯性所以這等於我們是面對的是一個國家級的問題那我又看了一下有關兒少的保護在日本它是只屬於首相 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4610.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4620.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
全名叫做兒童家庭廳兒童家庭廳只屬於首相韓國是由副總理兼任我的意見是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4626.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4647.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
對於幼童的保護是必須跨部會我們少子化又是國安問題為什麼我們把這麼重要的一個業務是交給一個三級機關來處理這是我的第一個問題第二個問題是我看了一下我們第五條第五款有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4649.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4674.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
邵家屬我看他的那個組織法草案裡面的第二條他是寫本署長理某某某某業務這樣子所以這個文字上面看起來是比較偏向是承辦而不是他一元化的主責因為我看到因為你們的第二條就是本署長理什麼什麼業務這樣所以我的感覺我從我對法律文字的理解有一點類似是 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4675.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4703.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
承辦機關它沒有說一個議員化的這種組織的概念然後另外就是這個兒少這個專屬的這個預算它有沒有一個獨立科目或者是這個成長目標因為我之前是社家屬那你只是掐了一點點業務進去然後換了一個名字換了一個名字之後其實它還是三級機關那還是叫做它只是改名叫做少家屬那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4704.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4721.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
好像也差不多沒有特別增加的權力尤其是我又看了一下署長是檢任13職等一個檢任13職等他其實在行政院裡面他的位階其實沒有算很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4723.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4741.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
这时候如果说有一些譬如说他跟劳动部去谈论育婴假内政部谈论一些赦宅等等的政策他找劳动部长或找内政部长的时候对方会听他的因为我就说我自己公务员干了24年我们公务员对上就是写一个签证都要写职是什么什么名字这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4742.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4770.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
古時候叫做卑職古時候我會自稱卑職那現在我們自稱職那當我一個十三職等的一個署長我要去跟部長級的人我們要談論這個跨部會的這個對於兒少的保護或者是我們要搶救少子化等等這一方面的牽連關係的議題的時候那我要怎麼去跟他談所以這也是我的一個覺得有一個問題譬如說我們之前那個凱凱案凱凱案其實我們後來從那個案子為什麼會重視那個案子因為我們發現那個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4772.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4788.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
案子其實它跟戶政的一些失聯警政 衛政等等的都有後來我們發現都有牽連性因為橫向有一些聯繫上有一些問題只有這邊漏一點那邊漏一點社會就會有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4789.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4804.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
一些悲剧会发生所以我刚刚看了一下我觉得基本上你这个第5条我们现在审查的第5条其实跟组织法也有关联性所以我这边就因为有关联性所以我再提一个就是说那我们是不是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4806.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4827.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我一個建議 就跟這個衛福部長官建議就是這個兒家屬的署長他可不可以兼任就是行政院譬如說我這個建議就是行政院社會福利推動委員會的執行長或副召集人等等的這樣讓他層級拉高我們能夠保護好小孩子因為這個絕對是跨部會 跨部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4829.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4850.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
沒有辦法由一個三級機關來辦理你我都當過很久的公務員我們很了解層級不高你要去跟上面談是有限職上面的困難好 謝謝這些意見其實在詢答裡面大家都問過了那我們今天就每一個版本都長得不一樣重點在這個地方所以我們這一條我們先暫保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4857.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4877.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
接下來我們來看第8條第8條我們是不是也請石崇良部長來做說明主席 謝謝主席那麼有關第8條行政院提案是明訂這個本次修正後的條文那麼由這個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4880.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4906.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
107年的6月13日那麼修正公佈條文來實施這個是明訂修正修正條文的實施日期 以上這樣啦 第八條 這一條就長得反而比較一樣了啦就只有林月琴而已 你就跟人家比較不一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4907.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4921.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
是不是我們這一條我們就按照行政院的版本在場委員們有沒有什麼意見現在跟林耀清委員你有意見嗎你再表達一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4923.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4943.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
版本差距過大的我全部給你保留啦都先暫保留啦像這個就只有你跟行政院沒講而已其他委員也沒有什麼特別的意見是不是我們就按照衛福部好那我們第8條在場委員都沒有特別的意見我們就按照衛福部的議案來做來通過再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5034.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5036.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這一條是不是請法治宇宣表示一下意見你們那個每一個版本都差異都很大你們也要把關一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5055.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5072.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
第八條法治局這邊報告主席各位委員好那第八條呢主要就是說這一次修正的條文要用行政院議定之還是要不要公佈日資洗那因為這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5074.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5099.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
涉及到整個組織法一整套條文所以這個部分我們不太確定行政院需要多少時間所以這個部分就是看委員要不要定一個施行日期還是尊重行政院的一個組織改造的進程去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5110.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5128.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為這涉及到立法體力,所以要請法治局表達一下意見,不然內容部分倒還好其他版本長得都一樣,所以我特別要來問一下可能你那群都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5133.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5154.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我記得之前好像司法法治委員會這邊有做過決定要用我們三讀日期作為一個就是修正條文的那個體力那因為這個部分我們是想說因為好像這個部分不是好啦那這連第八條我都暫保留了好不好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5161.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5180.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那附帶決議呢來另有委員提出附帶決議現在來處理委員針對第一案所提的附帶決議有三案請一併宣讀宣讀以後再來逐案進行處理請宣讀討論事項第一案是附帶決議附帶決議一 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5184.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5213.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
建請衛生福利部針對兒少及家庭成員之心理健康促進於六個月內邀集精神醫學心理學領域之專家學者與第一線工作人員進行現況調查分析具有資源盤點政策檢討並具體提出具體改善方案提案人陳北宇等人附帶決議二為促進重症而照顧資源之改善與整合原建請衛福部邀集 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5214.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5236.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
相關部會專家學者針對以下事項進行研議並於六個月內提出規劃報告一盤點於整合各項資源包含即興醫療復健早療長期照顧寒喘息身障社會福利教育等建立以重症而為中心之照顧體系二 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5237.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5261.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
成立重症儿整合咨询中心作为单一窗口供家长洽询三 确立重症儿之名词定义并就此定义进行我国重症儿数据统计与分析四 针对居家医疗照顾整合计划演绎增订适合重症儿的收案条件服务与相关给付之可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5261.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5276.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
五 針對長期照顧服務3.0嚴厲促使照顧服務更加切合重症家庭需求之做法六 參佐日本醫療照顧及家庭支援法 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5276.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5296.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
嚴厲我國相關法制改善與規劃 七針對中正兒之就學照顧 盤領過往各類案例和需求嚴厲制度性機制法規修訂或建立之方向並就中正兒義務教育後之安置與照顧提出制度性因應規劃提案人陳培宇等人附帶決議三 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5299.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5323.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
為改善第一線照顧管理專員之勞動權益原件請衛生福利部針對以下事項進行研議並於三個月內提出規劃報告一 充實人力減少每人平均負擔案量二 設置每人案量超過200案之獎勵機制三 檢討具有績效指標四 減少行政文書作業之負擔提案人陳培宇等人 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5326.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5341.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
請問機關對於附帶決議有沒有什麼意見或說明不遵照辦理沒有問題第一案我們就照案通過第二案請問機關有沒有特別意見或要說明沒有問題遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5353.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5364.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那我們就照案通過那第三案請問衛福部請問機關這邊有沒有說明或什麼不同意見遵照辦理那我們就照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5384.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5402.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們現在附帶決議已經處理完了那我們剛剛是在第二 第五 第八我們是暫保留然後現在再回來剛才衛福部要提出修正意見那在場的委員我看意見也沒那麼多沒那麼多跟拉鋸因為每一個版本都長得不同這樣我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5414.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5422.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
來 先休息三分鐘啦 好不好來看看你們有沒有先溝通一下啦你們的條文就都 大家的意見都不一樣的這條文是要怎麼過 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6101.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6102.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們繼續開會了好 主席宣布開會了 各位委員請就座 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6138.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6155.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那我們現在就宣告了衛生福利部組織法第二條第五條第八條這個版本剛也溝通了但是意見還是有很大的差距的那我們是不是先要保留嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6171.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6178.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
還是你要繼續說所以我要問你的意見我剛講的是先暫保留要做最後的確認那我們第二條就先保留第五條也保留第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6199.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6202.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
第八條也是保留本案逐條都已處理完畢來做以下的宣告本案審查完略拟據審查報告提請院會來公決本案是不是要交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6223.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6243.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
要本案就交由黨團來協商那院會討論時就由莊召委員瑞雄來出席做說明附帶決議三項一併提報院會處理那條次跟引述條文部分文字跟法制用字授權主席跟議事人員來整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6246.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6268.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那現在我們來進行討論事項第二案 病案審查行政院函請審議衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持組織法的草案等14案那請問在場委員是不是要進行大體討論或直接來逐條那就直接來進入逐條那我們先宣讀好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6275.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6298.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
繼續宣讀修正動議部分討論事項第二案修正動議三第三條修正為本署自署長一人職務列檢任第十三職等副署長兩人職務列檢任第十二職等提案人翁曉琳等人討論事項第三案修正動議四 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6300.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6310.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
第三條修正為本署自署長一人職務列檢任第十三職等副署長兩人職務列檢任第十二職等提案人翁曉琳等人 選讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6317.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6330.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那是不是現在我們請因為行政那個衛福部他也有提出修正這一條就差距就比較小了啦那其他的提案委員要不要做說明這條感不覺得矮這條一個一個來好了 一個一個來這樣不然我們就為 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6354.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6365.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那我們現在繼續進行逐條本案系制定案一共要處理名稱六條名稱的部分是不是各位委員的提案名稱都相同是不是我們就按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6382.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6411.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那第一條各提案的條文內容其實都相同那我們是不是也行政院 行政院加來 衛福部你們現在有微調其實才兩個字而已 說明一下好 跟主席跟各位委員報告因為原本的行政院的條文還有多數委員的條文裡面那麼都是寫辦理兒童 頓好 少年 健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6412.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6441.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
頓耗福利與權益及家庭支持之業務因為這個在讀起來不是因為頓來頓去還有後面又有及所以我們建議是說以下遇到兒童頓耗少年的時候都採用我們的正式法規名稱就是這個兒童及少年權益這個保障法的這個正式名稱都稱為兒童及少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6441.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6465.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以以下是不是兒童頓耗少年的部分呢都一併以兒童及少年那麼來他就是連在一起的然後再談他的健康福利與權益所以以下都是兒童及少年健康福利與權益那另外一個是家庭支持所以以上就文字的修正再請委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6466.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6478.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 謝謝 那這個條文內容其實一樣啦那只是小小的兩個字這樣的一個寫正我們是不是就按照衛福部來 王玉明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6480.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6504.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這個條文衛福部應該說明一下其實跟各位的版本是有不一樣的地方我先講我自己的部分我自己的部分我包括有增加的這個兒童少年保護安置照顧政策自立支持服務之規劃然後我在這個第四款的部分有包含生育 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6504.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6506.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
第一條我們按照行政院的提案通過修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6520.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6525.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那現在第二條就有不一樣了那現在是不是請來先請張雅玲委員來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6542.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6567.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
好那我的部分呢基本上因為我想這個版本跟那個衛福部比較差異比較大就是說我在第二款的部分呢我甄列了這個性剝削防治性侵害防治這個地方是因為這個部分我覺得是可以來討論我沒有堅持因為最主要是因為這個地方是兒家屬所以是在考量說是不是要把它都併在這個地方一起來處理那第五項的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6570.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6576.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
第七第七的部分我甄列了一個叫做兒童少年休憩遊戲及休閒發展政策之規劃推動與執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6579.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6604.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
就是說我們過去其實在這個兒少遊戲的部分啊 休憩的部分其實相對來說是比較缺乏的所以我希望在現在這個兒家屬的執掌裡面呢可以把這件事情納入因為過去在社家屬它其實是一個比較沒有被重視可是因為在去年的 前年的這個聯合國其實也把這個地方特別的去強化了那希望我們在法案的部分也可以來去強化這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6604.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6628.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那在第十二的部分呢是兒童少年偏差行為輔導去規劃整合統籌及跨機關的政策協調那最主要是我們現在的少事法就是說它可能是感化教育判了三年之後那三年之後呢它可能就會回到這個設政的領域那只是說因為團體的擔心是說我們現在如果沒有把它寫進去的話未來的執行上面怕會忽略掉這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6628.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6652.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那在第13個部分呢最主要是因為這個我們是強化了兒少之隱私權保護個人資料保護網路安全及數位環境風險防治及相關政策之規劃整合與推動那最主要是說因為現在兒少常常遇到的問題呢不管他們的社交的環境呢其實都發生在網路他們大量的使用網路可是我們現在卻並沒有把這件事情放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6654.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6670.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那其實是有點忽略了現實的狀態所以那再加上這個部分呢其實也非常仰賴這個橫跨各部會的一個協調所以希望在這個第13條關於兒少女士權網路安全的部分呢也要把它納入在現在的這個執掌裡面謝謝好 那個林慧琴委員就修正動議了來 前林委員再來王玉敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6679.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6695.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我這邊修正動議這邊大家提醒因為第一個首先我覺得兒家屬的一個組織長理事項我可以看到業務單位都有就相關的政策規劃推動跟執行都有名列很好可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6696.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6715.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
實際執行的第一線社工常常跟我說針對兒少族群我們雖然都有很多服務方案可以介入可是通常都會受制於家長不願意配合也就是在實務上經常可以看到當父母或主要照顧者或法定代理人沒有辦法進到教養職責的時候兒少就出了狀況但第一線的服務卻 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6716.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6731.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
往往很難以深入或具體處理所以原因之一就是我們自己在第一線介入的時候欠缺執行的一個正當性也就是你對政策方案執行的事前的完整評估跟調查事實上是沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6731.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6753.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以因此我建議在所有法條當中不管事實上是第一款、第二款、第三款甚至第四款我們都認為應該要加評估兩個字也就是完善的評估調查絕對才能讓第一線服務的供給帶來幫助也更能符合兒少跟家庭的實際需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6754.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6782.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那第二款呢我事實上是增加了一個智力支持因為你從前面保護到安置到智力支持才是完整性的那目前這個你就只寫到安置的話就漏掉一塊因為整個兒少服務的一個核心精神本來就是涵蓋成年後的銜接的配套以及機構處於後的智力支持也就是說除了保護跟福利服務跟權益保障以外我們也應該同步強化兒少作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6783.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6805.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
全力主體的致力支持的協助所以我建議在第二款加入這些文字那第三款我建議就是要刪除兒童頓耗及少年為什麼因為這邊我想問業務單位的是推服務政策推服務支援政策適用的對象應該是兒童和少年是不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6806.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6822.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那主要事實上是針對0到6歲的幼兒當你兒童要放進去勉強可是少年根本跟托育服務的關聯性比較低一點所以是不是可以不要勉強一定每一項每一款都要加上兒童頓豪少年或兒童級少年所以我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6823.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6847.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這一個應該是要把它拿掉就直接家庭托育服務就好不用前面再加兒童及少年所以等下也請業務單位說明一下為什麼要加這幾個字那第五款呢我覺得要增訂兒權公約的督導及影響評估過去兒權公約真的事實上是在我不知道在中規還是兒少組在做可是我覺得應該要單獨有 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6849.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6873.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
能力去做推動所以今天適逢CRC的第三次國家報告審查的話我肯認這是主改那衛福部當然有具體明確的把兒權公約的推動協調聯繫工作都納入法條可是我這邊還是要建議要增新增督導及影響評估因為我們很多東西基本上都沒有在做影響評估像上次在講人工生殖法的時候我們也很希望知道那影響評估是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6874.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6898.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
兒權的影響評估是什麼所以要新增督導影響評估這文字一方面依據公約跟一般性意見書的建議政府有義務辦理兒權公約的影響評估另外一方面其實社家署一直都有把包含督導及影響評估納入到禮辦理可是沒有理由不放進去在文字裡頭讓他更清楚放進去大家就更能彰顯政府的決心跟立場所以我認為這並不會造成額外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6901.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6927.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那第六款呢 我這邊要增訂事故傷害防治頓耗跟身心健康為什麼要增加自殺跟事故傷害一直以來都是兒少死亡的主因的第一位 第二位那依照現行的組織業務分工狀況的話相關的健康促進跟防治跟數據監測的業務分散在新建師跟國民健康署跟健保署來做主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6928.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6948.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所以我建議在這邊還是要明文列出來尤其是事故傷害一直以來他是造成孩子死亡原因第一高位為什麼一直上常常是被忽略所以我認為在文字上寫清楚會是比較好那再來就是上禮拜大我也在質詢的時候部長也提到事故傷害防治的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6949.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6971.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
有要移到新社的兒家屬所以我就文字上列也沒有什麼太大問題當然沒有錯前幾天我也問過新建師看起來目前兒少身心健康促進的業務都已播過來了所以我也建議在這邊加上身心兩字那再來就是增訂第七款將兒少發展權跟公共事務參與權這些相關的政策跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6971.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6984.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
法規嚴定明文入法為什麼要講發展本來我們就過去一直很忽略的如果從兒童福利角度上來看你是產補式的還是發展式的所以我覺得我們已經產補式的應該更漸往前瞻性發展的話應該把發展這兩個字放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6993.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7013.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
而且今年就要提出第三次的国家报告所以我认为在儿少发展参与表役的机制上我们还是落后太多尤其是你看去年在台中市儿少代表集体遭台中市政府取消资格的争议所以表示我们缺乏明确的制度化的设计让一些地方政府可以找漏洞钻 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7013.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7033.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
直接干涉兒少參與所以我建議要把新社專責機關的話業務內容當然不可以把這部分漏掉而且這也是民間團體的共識也符合兒少的最佳利益的宗旨那原本的第八款跟第十款呢我是合併都講的是同樣一個是機構而且加上你的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7034.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7051.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
支持的服務事項和兒少福利機構那我真的就要問喔有一直以來我一直很好奇的是現在地方普設的親子館在法律定位上他到底是不是兒少福利機構還是你的兒少福利機構支持藻寮跟我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7053.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7077.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
安置機構可是那這一部分到底有誰在管理甚至設置標準是什麼所以等下請業務單位說明因為我這樣合併的話表示家庭支持的一些單位也都進來如果親子館是屬於家庭支持的一個單位的話那當然就比較可以確認那修正動議我的加上第十款增訂我覺得跨機關的協調跟整合這次主改大家都很熱見 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7078.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7103.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
政府願意看見兒少政策推動的困境然後來成立專責機構來組織可是民間單位同樣的關心因為本來希望成為部可是現在變成是署的話那整個跨機關的協調整合的問題會不會在這次獲得改善那倒不如在文字裡邊就把它列進去最後就是我徵訂第十一款也就是隱私權的保障跟網路安全跟風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7105.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7128.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
防治政策跟法規的研定因為這幾年數位環境的安全跟隱私保障的這些層面兒少族群事實上是首當其衝的一個對象所以很多研究也指出造成兒少身心傷害的很大的問題是來自網路使用所以我們認為網路使用這一塊應該要放在這邊然後不僅過去事實上欠缺主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7129.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7146.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
相關的法治政策也始終缺席所以我覺得讓兒少暴露在高風險的環境當中所以我認為應該把數位網路使用的安全跟隱私保障權益包含身心健康的在內的自殺議題都未來納入在我們的兒家屬的一個業務範疇之中以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7152.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7177.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
口袋都很好來 接下來王玉明委員發言以後吳思堯委員 再來陳培宇委員很快啦 因為喔你們這條文今天都沒有共識啦這個都沒有共識啦我盡量讓大家發表因為今天聯席啊我也知道衛緩那個地方你們自己也有質詢啦所以都不用擔心 好不好我在主持 你們不用擔心但是大家 把你們撩到會瓦嘛像剛剛你衛福部說要秀那個那個就不放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7178.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7191.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們審法案的那種要件啊你秀出來沒有用啊你們也沒有案啊就你有案他有共識也要委員提出版本他有辦法審啊來 王一鳴委員好 謝謝莊委這個我也覺得第二條的部分應該是要予以保留到目前為止政院的版本跟委員提出來的版本有蠻多有差異的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7201.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7221.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那這個委員各自有不同的角度我覺得因為這次兒家屬的一個成立民間團體都抱有非常大的一個期望就希望它功能是要完整的覆蓋是要完整的所以我這邊的版本跟這個行政院還是有很大的差異那我剛剛前面已經有講過第二款要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7222.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7236.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
自立支持服務的規劃第四款的部分因為部長曾經說從胚胎開始我們就要開始照顧所以第四款的部分我增加的是有生育孕產婦照護政策的規劃這個應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7238.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7260.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
既然是儿家属应该要把健康的部分还有孕产妇这个是前端这个也是部长讲的从胚胎就开始照护应该要把它整合进来所以在第四款的部分增加生育跟孕产妇照护的部分在第七款的部分增加了有关于儿童少女医疗的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7261.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7289.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
死亡回顾事故伤害预防政策推动及执行那这一块也是我们现在说要降低我们的这一个死亡率那孩子的健康其实跟医疗的部分也是息息相关那所以应该要把医疗的部分也放进来死亡回顾事故伤害预防这一个这个如何降低我们的死亡率我想这个也是重中之重但是在正院的版本里面文字都没有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7289.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7318.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我希望第七款的部分呢这个部分应该要增加第八款的部分呢就是针对处罚跟曝险的儿童还有少年处育服务政策的规划推动及执行这个部分是现在其实卫福部做的很弱的一环就是也被往往被忽略的一环那所以这一块呢我认为既然要主改重新调整那这一块呢也应该予以相对应的这个重视 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7319.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7340.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那最後是第九款的部分呢我增加對於福利機構業務的監督輔導及考核這些相關單位這個可能也是我們衛福部這邊未來兒家屬應該要擔負起來的所以包括前面我們在審衛福部組織法的時候我有一個附帶決議是關於這個整個兒家屬的出入規程的規劃各單位職長的分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7346.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7368.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那這個其實是連動的當我們這邊在講兒家屬的職長其實也呼應了未來他的各單位的這個編制跟職長所以我認為有關於這一條我希望是保留就是衛福部應該要廣聽更多的意見跟聲音把你的功能建構得更完整以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7368.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7389.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
好 謝謝王一鳴委員 王一鳴委員 你的條文跟人家寫的不一樣林烈群委員也跟人家長得不一樣 還有張雅玲你看還有 你看陳培宇委員 我看你們那個條文剛才仔細的看 他這也不一樣 但大家都有增加啦那劉建國委員 他又增加了一個兒少遭受霸凌 歧視其他親愛跟身經發展的預防防治這除了你們的條文 有了八門啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7394.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7418.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
很充實啦但是就是沒溝通啦來接下來吳思瑤委員謝謝主席第一次發言因為能夠有這個機會來成立這個關心兒少的一個新的組織這個署大家當然都很關切非常佩服很多關心的委員提出非常多面向也都向衛福部未來成立的這個新的署許了很多願 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7419.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7430.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我是從法制作業的角度來看大家可以去看看衛生福利部的組織法衛福部這個大部的組織法就是12項 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7432.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7460.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
他盡可能把方方面面把他精煉在該來勢的內容裡頭去處理他那因為剛剛委員提的確實在兒少萬事他的身體健康心理健康他的權益他的托育他的各項支持系統都非常的繁複可是當你要在一個條文裡頭包山包海的怎麼寫就會掛一漏萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7461.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7486.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
但是委員們所提出來的很多面向確實是原本你們比較輕忽的譬如說兒少的隱私數位環境這些新興社會裡頭新興的議題是應當含括進來的所以這個條文越加越多那每一項都很重要但我是建議衛福部要花一點時間把委員們所提的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7487.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7512.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
因为这个不要组织肥大到写太多就等于都没写你知道吗而且其实儿少很多东西你会跟内政部相关你会跟警政相关你会跟教育部相关你会跟NCC抒发部都相关我有时候会担心我反而刚看委员加进来的东西我会担心当在卫福部的儿家属里头写的越细的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7513.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7537.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就会让其他部门他本来也承担了相关的责任他最后都会说这是卫福部的事情因为里面是在你们家可是卫福部的专业在卫生医疗在权益事项的保障卫福部没有办法去做到太多的譬如说数位治理的工作或者是儿少犯罪的侦防的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7538.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7564.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以说我是真的我的观点是说有些事情不要落在母法里头你可以在你的条文说明栏里头去补强它那也真的大家要充分的考量到我是提供一个不同面向的考虑如果都写得太巨细靡遗我真的担心其他部会负有相关的政策责任的他反而都撇给卫福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7565.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7580.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以请卫福部在第二条这个保留是必须的可是在思考的部分包山包海巨系迷移的写法可能会不会有其他执行面跟部会协调的汉格 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7581.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7600.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那當然有一個比較好的方式剛剛月琴委員有提她在其中的一項第十項第十款增加了一個相關工作的跨部會協調也許這樣子的一個機制就是一個處理的方式所以我要關鍵給大家參考不然你太多包山包海到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7603.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7615.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
就反而是執行上的困擾真的要想想其他部會以後全部都一股腦兒推到兒家屬因為入法這兒家屬的事情這個提供不同面向的思考給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7620.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7644.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
還有人要說嗎 意見差太多了劉建國委員 趙委員你剛的我特別把你的條文把你唸出來了所以就不用再講了這條要補理由了陳培委員要再說嗎好 我就贊成主席保留因為我也擔心跨部會的討論如果其實還沒有完成包山包海真的蠻可怕雖然大家都有各自關心跟擔心的議題我也贊成保留主席的提議這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7646.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7649.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好啦 這樣第二條我們就先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7653.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7679.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那第三條第三條我看行政院還有林業勤委員 羅廷維委員 陳柏宇委員 郭益勤委員王玉銘委員 李崑禎委員 王正旭委員 張雅玲委員 王鴻慧委員徐曉欣委員 李燕秀委員 廖偉祥委員 劉建國委員還有黃國昌委員 還有翁曉琳委員 我都做這兩三個幾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7680.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7685.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們這樣子好了啦 這個提案的條文 其實內容這個第三條都一樣啦你修正綜藝這樣沒有嗎 來 拍出來是不是請翁曉琳委員來做提案的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7705.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7710.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
好 我這邊簡單說本席在這裡提出第三條的修正動議主要的考量是認為說其實兒少署的署長應該還是才以常任文官為主會比較好那麼畢竟在我們現在行政院所屬的三級機關裡面大多數的署級的機關首長都是以常務職為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7730.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7758.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那麼只有少數的署長可能是以政務人員禁用或者是政務及常務職的這種雙軌制所以因為在現在衛福部底下它本身也有很優秀的社福方面的事務官所以我在這邊跟民眾黨的提案基本上它的內容是 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7759.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7774.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
一致的就是建議本署的署長是直接職務列檢認13職等也就是不是採取比照檢認13職等那未來這個署長就是以事務官為主這以上的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7775.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7781.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好 謝謝翁曉琳委員的說明你們這些都不夠氣魄了那我會印領印領後代表大家都有機會拚這款其實讓各有不同的面向你們怕說人家又落人過了其實政務跟常務其實都會有它的道理來 接下來程昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7799.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7828.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
工小林委員也提出來跟我們民眾黨的黨團提出的一樣的見解我們主張不是比照就是接讓這個署長他就是職務就是檢任第三職等就是我們還是主張雖然剛剛主席分析各有好處但是我們覺得從文官系統事務官來擔任這個職位是更理想的更有機會保持一個中立專業的這樣子一個角色而不是隨便譬如我也不會不能叫我去當 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7829.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7829.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這條機關有沒有特別要做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7851.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7852.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
主席跟各位委員當然我們是希望是能夠擴大那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7868.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7883.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
取材因為這個業務跨足了社會福利跟健康醫療所以我們是希望讓它多一點點彈性比照健保署的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7885.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7908.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
組織法讓這個署長這邊是可以用比照檢認13指等來取材那麼增加用人的彈性所以我們是建議是否可以委員支持按照行政院的提案來通過機關說明很有道理但是修正東西出來就是沒公式保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7914.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7942.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
來第四條第四條各提案的條文內容其實長得一模一樣那我們是不是就按照行政院的提案通過好那第五條第五條各提案的條文也都內容均相同第五條我們就按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7944.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7970.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
第六條第六條就除了委員羅廷偉 廖偉祥等提案以外其餘的各提案內容都相同那羅委員也在場那是不是有不同的看法還是要按照行政院的版本 請說明好 謝謝召委尊重院版的那就以院版為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7974.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7979.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那我們第六條就按照行政院的提案通過那我們現在處理附帶決議應有委員提出的附帶決議現在處理針對第二案所提附帶決議一共八案請一併宣讀宣讀以後再來主案進行處理請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8005.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8032.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
宣讀討論事項第二案附帶決議共發案附帶決議一請衛福部於本法修正通過後調整保護安置主業務內容將住宿室照顧修正為自力支持服務並新增社區生活相關業務以完整涵蓋兒少自力發展與回歸社會之服務需求提案人林月琴等人附帶決議二 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8033.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8051.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
警衛服部於本法第二條通過後與相關業務分工及處務規程之規劃應明確將托育服務獨立涉足以應應未來實務之需求實務之所需提案人林月琴等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8053.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8075.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
附帶決議三請衛福部於本法第二條通過後參考醫事司及教育部國教署現行做法針對相關人力資源之運用違法事件之調查及管理以及托育服務之績效及品質監測提出具體明確之規劃以因應未來實務之所需提案者林月琴等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8077.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8105.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
附帶決議四請衛福部於本法通過後針對保護安置組織距離規劃應建立積極制跨體系協調與政策回應機制與保護安置自力支持及社區生活各階段中確保兒少權益得以實施落實並提出具體執行措施以回應實務現場與兒少發展之實際需求提案人您願請等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8107.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8135.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
附帶決議五為健全兒少及家庭支持署完善政策品質建請衛福部與衛生福利部兒少及家庭支持署組織法草案三讀通過後訂定兒少及家庭支持署初步規程應參照下表所列之內部單位分工與職長建立副表部分請參閱書面資料提案人王玉敏等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8138.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8162.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
附帶決議六 為確保衛福部衛生福利部兒童及少年與家庭支持組未來成立後各項行政業務得以穩定推動並有效運作與研擬組織法組織規程及初步規程時機關內部組織分工制規劃應以下列原則為基準辦理一 機關內部至少應設置六個業務組 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8164.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8194.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
二為了源而編制能實質支撐各項兒童及少年政策與業務之推動三該各組織可別設置原則上每組不得少於四科以確保人力配置充足以避免業務過度集中影響政策執行品質與專業深度提案人陳培宇張雅玲等人不在決議期 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8195.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8204.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
為確保未來衛福部耳哨及家庭支持署成立後之行政效能與政策推動品質請主管機關嚴尼該組織處域規程時應納入下列標準一原額規模應參照國建署指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8214.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8227.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
編制標準 二 應明確設置資訊專業源額三 應設置研究與政策專業源額四 請行政於三個月內向立法院報告執行情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8229.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8247.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
行政院應與兒家屬人力規劃完成後三個月內向立法院提報原額配置職長分工專業人力比率及後續發展規劃一例國衛監督提案人陳培宇張雅玲等人布袋決議八 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8250.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8271.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
請心理健康司於本法通過後兩個月內針對如何充實兒少身心健康促進及自傷自殺自傷防治政策之專業人力及如何精進相關政策之執行與推動提出書面報告說明提案人林月琴等人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8275.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8281.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們附帶決議 訛紹第二條討論這項的第一案 請問提案委員有沒有補充說明針對附帶決議第一案 請問機關有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8294.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8316.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
有關林玉琴委員的附帶決議第一案我們建議文字稍微做一點點簡單的調整就是附帶決議的第三行開始就是將住宿室照顧那個將字我們拿掉就是住宿室照顧應包括修正為把它改成應包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8317.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8343.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
自立支持服務及社區生活相關服務以下統就是我們讓住宿室照顧將來業務的範圍可以橫跨到整個過程跟流程然後但是不會取代掉原來住宿室裡面住宿的生活的一些服務我們把文字做一些調整 以上文字這個就要修正擬一下那委員再重新再簽好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8346.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8369.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那兒少第二案我們現在往下啦你那個先簽書我們再來請送到主席台兒少第二案討論事項第二案附帶決議第二案請問提案委員沒有其他補充說明那機關有沒有其他意見或說明第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8377.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8398.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
報告委員第二案我們遵照辦理好那我們第二案就專案通過那兒少第二條討論事項第二案附帶決議三請問提案委員有沒有其他補充說明機關有沒有補充意見遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8399.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8416.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 那我們第三案我們就 第二案 第三案第三案我們就照案通過那鵝哨第二條討論事項第二案附帶決議是請問提案委員有沒有補充說明沒有了 機關有沒有其他意見或說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8419.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8431.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好 那附帶決議第四案就照案通過討論事項第二案附帶決議第五案請問提案委員有沒有補充說明沒有的話請機關有沒有補充意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8435.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8461.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
跟主席跟各位委員說明因為以下有好幾案委員都有不同的建議就是未來這個兒少署裡面的組要如何的編制每一個組裡面要擔負什麼樣的業務我想底下好幾位委員的附帶決議內容也都不盡相同所以是不是都我們納為我們一起參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8462.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8484.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
因為未來我們會在這個初步歸程的時候那麼再去一併的參酌以上說明我想這個是因為很多團體也很關心就怕你們有一些業務沒有納進來那我也贊成就是說如果大家有一些不一樣的看法的話但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8485.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8507.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
委員提出來的這個像我提出來的第五就希望你們可以去參照好不好你們就參照然後一併去嚴密規劃組別的部分大家幾個幾位委員大概都是六組啦所以我們會朝向這個以六組可是這組的業務內容是什麼因為每個委員不盡一致我們在一併那個納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8509.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8529.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
可以 因為這個就是我剛剛講的這個分工的規劃跟我們剛剛審的第二條其實是息息相關就是他的執掌跟這邊的分工所以這就一併後面大家協商再來討論處理好那附帶決議第五案我們就保留討論事項第二案附帶決議六 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8532.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8547.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
提案委員有沒有補充說明那機關有沒有什麼意見我們的意見跟剛剛一樣因為也是跟第五案的意見因為他也是分了六組但是那組的名稱也不一樣來 那討論事項第二案附帶決議七提案委員有沒有補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8560.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8587.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
提案委員沒有補充 機關有看到沒有新的 你們有沒有補充說明也是一樣 這個是在初屋歸塵的時候去討論的也是那個分組的業務內容好啦 這樣保留討論事項第二案附帶決議7提案委員有沒有補充說明沒有 機關有沒有補充意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8591.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8607.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
第七頁保留討論事項第二任附帶決議八提案委員有沒有補充說明沒有的話請機關表達意見遵照辦理討論事項第二任附帶決議八我們就照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8622.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8649.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
來 第一案已經回來了那兒少第二條討論事項第二案附帶決議那應該要再唸一下吧宣讀一下這個是文字修正的修正文字如下第三項修正為住宿 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8651.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8674.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
將將刪除然後住宿是照顧應包括自立知識服務及社區生活相關業務以完整涵蓋兒少自立發展與回歸社區之服務需求選舉完畢好那田委員跟機關都沒有意見我們兒少第二條討論事項第二案附帶決議依舊照修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8684.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8708.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
本案主條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會來公決那本案是否交由黨團協商好本案須交由黨團協商院會討論的時候由莊召及委員瑞雄出席說明附帶決議六項一併提報院會來做處理那附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8711.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8739.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
两案保留那也送院会来处理调次引述条文部分文字及法治用于三案还是两案三案还是三案三案三案抱歉喔附带决议三案保留送院会来处理那调次引述条文部分文字及法治用于用字授权主席跟议事人员来整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8744.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8766.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那我們現在討論事項第三案來併案審查行政院函請審議衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法的草案等12案請問在場委員要不要做大體討論我看不用了我們就主條那我們就直接進入主條的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8775.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8786.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
名稱的部分除了林業群委員的提案以外其他提案名稱都相同林委員要看到行政院的好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8787.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8810.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
來聽妳的聽妳說我剛剛前面已經有講過就是說為什麼我們後來改正因為我們社福團體已經討論過他跟身障團體討論過今天如果把按照我們衛福部的是把長照放在前面主體是長照可是今天這邊如果剛才的衛福部的組織法裡面如果有討論到婦女的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8811.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8830.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那如果要放在保護那另外一個現在被保留可是如果放在這邊的話會變成這有三個族群 身障我們的高齡者跟我們的婦女那這三塊怎麼會是先長照因為長照畢竟大概都是高齡者 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8831.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8850.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
比較在使用所以團體的意見會比較希望就交換一下就是說把長照本來長照及社會發展署把它放社會發展放到前面那我覺得那之前有跟部裡邊溝通過部裡邊也是同意我覺得這個會比較好一點這是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8851.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8874.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我覺得與時俱進我們現在老福法大家都會覺得要改成高齡者權益保障法的時候我們在這邊都還是在呈現很多條文都在寫老人所以我建議是這一條裡面只要甚至後面條文只要寫到老人的話應該要考慮因為那是過去早期我們立法時的慣用語可是隨著社會結構現在65歲都還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8878.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8891.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
都還是身心很健康的狀態你用老人這種用詞的話我覺得一方面預設年長者都是被照顧失能或社會負擔的對象忽略高齡者在能力健康狀況社會參與跟生活樣態的高度的多元化 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8894.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8915.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以我覺得也跟我國積極跟聯合國的目標也不一樣聯合國也就是說要活力老化所以我們會認為說這種方向已經跟聯合國也不太符合所以我覺得為回應年齡歧視的防治所以我認為應該把這一條的條文裡面只要講到老人的都一律修正為高齡者因為第一條就已經碰到了我們希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8915.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8931.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
可不可以用這個名詞然後另外一個就是我們的署的名稱把它反過來就是社會發展及長照署不是用長照及社會發展署以上 謝謝部長 我覺得有道理你一直點頭 所以就叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8938.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8959.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟委員說明就是說那個署的名稱我們讓他在社會發展在前長照在後本部表示支持啦我們上個禮拜五有跟團體有道理啦有道理啦都有共識所以我們支持把名稱做修正這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8961.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8976.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
但是就是 老人的可不可以變成是高齡來 我來處理 你用講的不遵守來 版本 再寫一下 寫一下對 全民是社會發展及長期照顧屬你是第一條跟第三條 我現在在說名稱名稱 名稱 現在講名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8991.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8991.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們是社會發展及長照署 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9018.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9026.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
是啦 你那是第一條 我在說名稱的部分你也要寫一個寫一個啦 寫一個 我們不然我再叫你的通過你有沒有搞笑啊 你我再講那個 大家都跟人家不一樣 結果大家都聽你的那當然也要先寫一個這樣我們待會 這個等一下再處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9046.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9060.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
接下來我們處理第一條 第一條除了林月琴委員 其他委員提案內容均相同林月琴妳有跟別人講嗎但是聽起來不錯來 她的修正動議 大家手上有沒有拿到第一條要宣讀一下讀過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9074.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9080.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那第一條來 請林二請為人補充說明要討論這一條我剛剛講的就是兩項嘛一個是沒有沒有你那個名稱才是你最好的對所以這第一條裡邊我剛剛提到說老人全部一律改為高齡者所以第一條的那個只要提到老人還有特社社會發展及長照署 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9102.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9118.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
你那個有兩部分第一個部分名稱啦衛福部人也贊成大家也贊成你再來是第一條好不好那你那個名稱的部分寫了那第一條的部分是不是請機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9119.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9137.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
跟委員說明這個第一條的部分涉及到那個老人要改成高齡者但是因為這涉及到我們還有其他的法規是老人福利法那個很多地方也都是所以現在我們查起來只有在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9138.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9156.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
勞動部的中高齡及高齡就業促進法有用到高齡者這個名稱其他的法規都還是用老人所以這個影響層面會蠻大的是不是還是維持原本的用字還是以老人這個如果補聽 我覺得你們有比較保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9164.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9169.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
你像譬如說,你看人家有什麼身心障礙,什麼卡對不對?那欠人家,我們覺得心情很壞,你也給他創一個名字,創得更好,要貼在他上面,健康卡,我不是說開心卡啦,就是健康卡,什麼卡,你給他創一個標籤化, |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9183.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9201.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我覺得你都應該可以在 你的太陽是很清澈的人應該突破一下像這個 你在這個地方去你不要以為說好像會跟白鴨相伴你這個地方去做突破很多事情你搞不好你是後面你要去做一些突破修正會更好一點影響會很大嗎 哪影響不會大你的林業群委員 來 吳思耀委員我先跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9210.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9232.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
部長聽一下因為這一次是我們優先在衛福要成立一個新的署而且focus在高齡者的長期照顧所以這確實是一個機會我們藉由這個署的組織的新出發來帶動其他法規名稱的統一化 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9234.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9261.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以說我當然知道很多過去都用老人嘛那也如果要改你們以後就可以啟動就他剛好是一個很好的發認一個很好的開端因為就是配合高齡者的長期照顧這個新屬的成立我們在社會的溝通啦社會的倡議啦新興的思維裡面都為這個開始啦所以令醫藥來啟動其他法規的配套的修正那個之後那我是支持把老人就做這個改靈 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9263.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9276.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
改為高齡者因為沒有人喜歡被叫老人OK我是支持岳勤委員對嗎你像柏中你這個看起來我就覺得你沿途的年輕人他還會說你老人是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9280.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9297.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
可以啦可以這樣就跟主席報告確實啦因為這個是組織法啦組織法不會去下名詞定義啦所以我們要在其他的作用法裡面去修不然我們會出現一個高凝者可是卻無定義什麼叫做高凝者 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9297.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9316.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那麼剛剛提到的那個就業促進法是在勞動部的法規不是在本部的所以等於未來我們要在本部要配合其他的法規特別是勞輔法一定要去修不然的話會對不起來我們這是組織法我們不會去下名詞定義要回到作用法去修 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9317.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9336.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
如果這個趨勢是如此我們來接受委員的建議蓋了我們再去修老扶法因為那個老扶法就要改了不然我們那邊叫老人這邊變成高齡者兩邊的 對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9338.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9360.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
沒關係啦,不聽話,你現在又年輕,你又沒感覺啦,又記歸了,你就知道你那個整個部會這麼多人在這個地方對這個名稱把它變成高齡者有沒有特別的看法有疑慮的提出來沒有關係不然其實搞不好其他的法規全部都是文字修正而已啦除非你有涉及到要件,那要件的定義你再講清楚就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9361.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9381.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
主席有個小問題如果是採用林月琴委員的修正動議的第一條那我要再確認一次法案的名稱到底是叫長照還是長期照顧四個字如果採用林月琴委員的修正動議你的長照一樣要變成長期照顧變成長期照顧署以後就正名叫做社會發展及長期照顧署 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9388.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9392.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為現在用你的修正動議裡面你都是要長照兩個字嘛好 那現在提案林月琴委員的提案修正動議名稱的部分要先宣讀討論事項第三 修正動議五將名稱改為衛生福利部社會發展及長期照顧署提案的林月琴等人 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9419.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9428.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 這樣修正動議在場委員沒有意見我們就召喚通過那第一條林月琴委員的提案這條修正動議簽了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9447.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9475.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
依修正動議修正後通過所以老人改高齡者所以現在跌倒就變成這樣衛生福利部為辦理長期照顧高齡高齡者身心障礙者婦女國民年金之業務特色社會發展及長期照顧署這個提案人林瑞琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9478.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9497.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們現在有一個沒解決的問題就是組織法裡面原本常發因為假設社造屬假設放婦女就人口比我們剛剛前面在討論的第二條的時候在組織法裡面那婦女要放在那邊還是要放在這邊一直沒搞定 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9498.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9522.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
因為范園委員提出來的是說要放在那邊我的版本是放在這邊那時候第二條就沒有決定那到底現在繼續走下去我們每一條都會有問題尤其是第二條第一條當然也會因為他第二條第一條就有問題了因為婦女現在這邊有個婦女如果雖然老人改成高齡者可是身心障礙者可是婦女到底要放這邊還是要放在那個保護師 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9523.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9527.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
跟保護是合併這一條是沒有解決的對啦 當然會有你丟分跟丟分這樣規定確實啊 會產生進合啊會產生進合啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9536.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9557.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我不知道說接下來第二條我的版本原本是要放在用人口別放在這邊按照跟行政院的一樣可是人口別放在這邊那我的每一條裡面大家都會提到婦女可是如果放在那邊的話我們這一條根本也沒辦法討論第二條第一條沒辦法做通過第二條也沒辦法討論如果沒有解決前面的話你們都很厲害我以前就照顧夫婦的最快 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9565.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9573.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我就是叫衛福部來附你放在這邊那第二條就可以討論第一條也可以通過可是現在就是前面我們那一條保留啦那就一定的 你組織完之後你如果保留 下面你怎麼做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9584.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9602.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
很麻煩啦 但是協商還是有它的意義啦還是有意義 畢竟這一些這個部分沒關係啦 一條一條來啦那我們討論 我們現在第一條來 討論事項第三案修正動議修正動議第二案就第一條就照林月琴委員的那個機關家 衛務部家有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9614.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9629.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個署的名稱搭配剛剛的修正我們是支持其餘因為有一個那個婦女業務上有一個婦女的業務我們是比較主張就是按照行政院版本因為跟第二條會連動就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9631.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9652.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
老人婦女生長者的福利福利服務還有福利資源還有權益保障社會參與那麼都是一起的所以跟我們第二條都會對起來所以我們是希望婦女能夠放在這裡不過因為還有一些委員有意見所以我們是建議這個條文還是保留陪保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9658.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9661.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
第一條就保留了第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9688.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9695.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
第二條除了行政院還有這麼多委員還有林耀群委員有提修正動議案那是不是請這條第二條你也不理我也不理我那第二條我們就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9708.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9724.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那第三條 第三條各提案的條文內容其實都是相同那有黃國昌 翁小玲委員提修正動議修正動議一跟修正動議四陳大志委有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9733.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9758.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這第三條剛才就大家有說過你現在就是要變常任的常任的意思所以主席認為我不需要再說明因為翁委員他現在到另外一個委員會他有請我們一起幫他做說明大家意見 機關請表達意見跟委員說明因為現在這個社家署的我們現行社家署就是常任文官然後長照師也是併起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9760.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9780.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
應該執行上比較沒有困難啦所以如果這個我們不堅持這個讓他單列檢認十三指等也是可以啦這樣啦 很簡單啦剛才俄少數也保留 這點也保留啦 好不好我們這個處理的邏輯就一樣嘛我們剛才也保留 這點也保留 好不好 早知 OK好來 接下來第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9788.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9798.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
第四條提案的條文內容均相同那我們是不是就照行政院的提案通過第五條各提案的條文內容也都一樣我們就按照行政院的版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9810.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9820.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
第六條 除了羅廷偉委員 廖偉祥委員等提案以外其餘各提案的內容均相同這不來 特別說怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9826.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9842.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
一樣啦 剛剛就是行政院以命令定制跟行政院定制是相同的羅委員剛剛其實也表達同意了那我們第6條也按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9847.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9856.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那本案 逐條均與處理完畢 做以下宣告本案審查完畢 領據審查報告提請院會來公決本案是否交由黨團協商要嗎 要來 院會 這些都夠多了 院會討論時由莊昭偉瑞雄出席說明條次引述條文部分文字跟法制用字用語授權主席跟議事人員來做整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9880.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9895.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
討論事項第四案病案審查行政院函請審議衛生福利部中央健健康保險署組織法第二條條文修正草案等八案是不是要我們直接進行主條的不用再大體討論了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9902.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9930.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
第二條來因為我們現在繼續來主條討論這只是一個條文而已第二條其實除了委員郭玉琴等16人提案不一樣以外其餘的各提案內容其實都相同不然這樣這一條其他委員有沒有其他意見如果沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9933.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9954.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
第二條我們就照行政院的那我們就按照行政院的提案通過囉跟主席報告第二條本來郭育群委員有提案那我們已經把他的提案納入我們的第八條就是現在的行政院版本那已經溝通過郭委員表示同意謝謝補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9958.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9982.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
本案逐條均已處理完畢 來做以下宣告本案審查完畢 凝聚審查報告提醒院會公決本案是否交由黨團協商來 院會討論時 由莊召集委員瑞雄主席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9985.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10011.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們現在討論事項第五案 病案審查行政院函請審議國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例的草案等八案主席 主席 不好意思剛才我們有說明說因為參考了這個郭玉琴委員的提案所以我們有建議的修正條文不是行政院 是修正建議條文建議條文靠款 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10012.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10035.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
屋屋屋在旁邊那一欄多了第八款全民健康保險資料之利用與管理沒有耶 沒有耶我剛才有給你們提醒你們要做什麼你們都要文字寫下來委員簽名這樣才有尊聖你要適中 適中修正動議喔 你們會不會這樣不行不是不是不是不是不是你們那個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10041.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10049.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
寫成修正動議請委員簽字您就不按 那不按要怎麼同歸您的趕快寫 好 謝謝立刻處理主席 叫他們去觀察社 好不好很冷的 很危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10077.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10077.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
先休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10456.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10456.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
阿俠後備 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10575.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10578.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
條文看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10675.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10676.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
你們國會主席是誰啊這樣不行喔 下次這樣不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10708.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10729.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們先請宣讀宣讀第四案修正動議第二修正動議一第二條參照行政院提案增訂第八款為全民健康保險資料之利用與管理原第九第八款以至第九款提案人林月琴等人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10736.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10752.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
更正宣告 討論事項第四案修正動議一 按照林月琴委員的修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10759.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10789.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
本案主條經已處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 擬拒審查報告提請院會公決本案是否交由黨團協商要啦 那不要本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由莊昭及委員瑞雄出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語用字授權主席跟議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10798.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10812.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
討論事項第五案 病案審查行政院函請國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例草案等八案那請問在場委員是不是要進行大力討論不用啦那我們就直接進入主條討論那 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10820.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10840.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們繼續來主條討論本案是制定案一共要處理名稱5個章名跟35個條文名稱的部分各提案的名稱均相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10842.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10868.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
第一張張明那各位提案委員張明其實都相同我們就按照行第一張張明就按照行政院的提案通過那第一條各提案委員的條文內容均相同委員程昭之等三人所提修正動議請問來程昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10872.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10899.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
主席 你要給我時間 我都沒講完沒開到你的時間那個第一條 我們討論第一條第一條第一條醫療科技評估的結果會影響哪些藥 哪些醫療服務或哪些新興科技可以被納入健保給付這個是非常大的事情也會影響健保資源怎麼來分配對病人權益 醫療體系跟公共財政都有重大影響所以它必須是個有制度有標準能夠被社會檢視的決策基礎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10902.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10929.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
在第一項部分等一下我再來就是讓大家了解第二項我特別要提到就是說可克折是治理跟監督機制目的在於回應這個社會對醫療科技評估制度的信任問題醫療科技不僅只是技術問題還涉及一個價值的選擇跟公共利益所以本中心在運作上除了醫學醫療科技方法學還有一個一定的方法學跟實證資料也必須將社會倫理跟公共價值納入考量並透過明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10930.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10953.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
的治理架構跟監督機制使這個過程跟結果能夠被檢視被說明被追究責任那過去也有研究指出行政法案這類比較公私混合的組織是不是能夠成為政府改造正確良好的政策工具它的關鍵處是在於是否能夠確實調和公共的課則跟私部門的效率所以我們這裡就是要求該中心在評估方法程序的設計跟意見形成過程當中必須透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10957.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10977.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
有依據並能對社會清楚說明其專業判斷的理由建立一個有專業又值得信任醫療科技評估我們醫療科技評估在2007年開始運用在健保的形容2019年以後才正式立了這個法所以第一條我們的修正案就是說也希望大家能夠支持我們把它寫得更明確更精確為了促進全民健康與福祉我們下來都不是空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10981.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
11009.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
針對衛生醫療相關政策運用醫療科技評估方法作為合理的醫療資源配置及健康政策決策的依據所以才特設國家醫療科技評估中心制定本條例還有第二個我們的修正中心很重點是本中心應該結合醫療科技評估方法學實證基礎及社會倫理價值並建立可克責性之治理跟監督機制以上請各位同事參考 請主席參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
11013.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11034.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
你部長可以嗎?我很認真給你看你第一條有比較多形容詞其實跟第一條行政院提案其他各委員也差不多但是部長看機關這邊可能也針對陳委員這個部分來看議案裡面的意見他不會這樣加形容詞加不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11041.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11048.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
如果部長接受就過去了因為如果其實我們是把邏輯上跟這個道理上第一條這個也不是這個也不是周知委員這也不是邏輯的問題行政院的是說促進國家醫療資源的有效運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11067.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11093.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
跟推動醫療科技的評估你是說要促進全民健康跟福祉國家醫療資源有效運用我們要運用醫療科技的方法作為合理醫療因為這個要徹底資源配置什麼東西要納入健保什麼東西不需要納入健保現在就要仰賴這個科技這個是對於每一個人都是非常重要的一個期待而且檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11095.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11111.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
醫療科技評估跟醫療科技評估方法有什麼不同給我修正動議好嗎我沒有那個吳思瑤我也沒有拿到修正動議他們沒有修正動議部長你還沒看完沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11114.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11135.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
主席跟各位說明因為行政院版本明確的是提到這個中心的設立是在為了醫療資源的有效運用那推動這個醫療科技評估去落實給付跟健康政策但是這個這個陳委員的修正動議有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11137.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11158.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
太大了就是弄成是為了推進全民健康與福祉這看起來像衛福部然後底下最重要的是這樣因為他只是針對衛生醫療相關政策我們針對的是醫療及戶籍健康政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11159.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11177.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以沒有讓那個醫療給付我們這個中心很重要的一個是醫療給付還有健康政策那但是您的版本看到的是是針對衛生醫療相關政策對象不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11182.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11204.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
就比較是不是可以按照行政院的版本那至於說第二項要加上去那麼結合這個醫療科技評估的方法學實證基礎建立我覺得這個倒是可以考慮那第一項的文字是不是維持行政院的版本比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11205.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11225.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那第二項的文字上如果要加上去我們是不反對所以部長可以接受我們加上一個那個後面就是去結合方法學實證基礎跟社會倫理價值去建立可苛責性質治理監督機制這開宗明義把它講清楚但是後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11227.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11249.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這樣啦 我聽得懂啦 我聽得懂啦就是說第一項 按照行政院的提案啦那第二項就是說 要同意按照成昭之委員的就是說本中心應結合醫療科技 加這段就對了啦 加這項但是這個我也看不懂 你那個到底是什麼?陳念捏 你不能寫一個條文 大家寫一個條文出來 大家都看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11258.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11261.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
醫療科技評估是看你要講我講醫療科技評估就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11265.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11293.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
有一套他的專業跟他的方法學這全世界都已經執行了非常久了那一定要按照過去我必須說過去我說2007年開始運用醫療科技評估來幫助健保署去哪些藥要給付哪些新科技要給付但是他常常受限於財務我現在剩多少錢我怎麼估就完全去配合我覺得說過去都變成健保署的小弟小妹簡單的說現在他竟然成立一個獨立的一個作業中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11294.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11301.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那他就要回到專業回到專業今天因為在場沒有其他的人因為這種人很少願意來這邊立法院被潑髒水這個本中心應該結合醫療科技這個部長不會不懂所以你們都弄一個大家不懂的東西我就問你嘛你像譬如說你那個增加的我沒有特別的意見我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11319.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11320.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
就是他要負起責任,因為過去的評估很多不是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11337.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11364.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
不是每一個評估本來他都必須要負責任因為你這個可苛責任到底是在說行政責任還是要談什麼樣的一個責任這個就在條文裡面語意就不清楚了我們在後來的法條開始就是下面的第三條法條就會比較有清楚的我們有一條一條的那個方法學就是要不要把這個概念帶進去你覺得成立一個中心我認為 昭芝妳有沒有可能你們去提附帶決議針對這個條文的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11366.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11383.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
不要拖穩補穩 你不要弄得開火我們有另外一條負債決議啦但是不是在處理這一條這開宗明義要講清楚今天我們好不容易國家這個在侯相茂署長就開始醞釀了好不容易現在2026年要成立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11384.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11407.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
已经就是19年后就是健保开始运用医疗科技评估因为很多东西不是就是一定要有一个评估方法为什么这个是有价值的这个是我们值得国人愿意付多少钱付得起多少钱怎么付法但那么考虑什么像喊病考虑人道考虑社会价值考虑伦理学这个是老实说这个中心的运作会影响很大影响非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11408.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11433.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 我自己在裡面用了很久 慢慢地討論慢慢地討論 語調放輕鬆 來 吳思瑤委員主席 我是建議第一條是用行政院的提案的版本那我可以理解 招資委員希望可以更周延那我的具體的主張是這樣我覺得我們那個立法例的精神也是要比照一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11434.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11453.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
過去對於這些中心組織新設組織的條例大概就是第一條是講這個是什麼What對不對What是這個新的組織所以說招資委員的第二項顯然是How還有And後面要執行的And Then這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11453.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11468.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以我是建議說第一條還是依過去的立法例這個中心是什麼然後特制定本條例那招資委員的第二項可以在有幾個處理方式三個處理方式第一個可以在條文說明裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11469.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11494.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
第二個可以用附帶決議的方式第三個或是落在後面相關業務執掌相關的條文裡頭我是做這樣的建議否則就怪怪真的就條文是怪怪所以我是建議用行政院的版本但是教職委員用這ABC三種方式來處理這樣子的一些主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11497.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11523.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
好 謝謝吳委員因為你這個條文兩個長的我第一個來講啦你第一個講的第一項其實在談的是這個立法的一個目的啦那你第二個你又把它加進去這個我請教部長就是說你行政院的條文跟程昭之委員的條文程昭之委員的疑慮就是說你的條文跟沒辦法涵蓋 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11526.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11553.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
應該跟委員說明我們是建議這一條維持行政院版本至於委員所提到的那個第二項他的修正動議第二項是希望有一些這個可克責性的機制可以在後面來處理因為後面在第三條的部分也會有相關的委員提案會有涉及到這個方法學跟倫理價值實證基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11556.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11580.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
納入在這個評估的過程這樣好了 莊姿這樣就我們這條就叫第一條本人就照行政院的提案來通過那你其他部分我們抵一下那個地方看你要怎麼樣來做當然本來我想說第一條有那第三條那個部分就不再強調嘛你現在說第一條不要放這個你不要放這個放第一條很殘暴小 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11588.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11606.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
醫療科技評估你懂啊王振旭懂啊他只是沒講話我們都在裡面待過第一條普通就是立法目的跟立法精神第一條就按照行政院的提案通過第三條要納入第三條我們要討論這件事來第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11614.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11624.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第二條的其實除了羅廷偉委員的提案以外其餘各提案內容均相同查這個第二項而已 羅委員查這個第二項而已那第二條我們就按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11636.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11651.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 我們現在進入到第三條第三條除了郭玉琴與委員等16人提案以外其餘各提案委員內容都相同那陳委員招之你有提一個修正動議啊王正旭委員來 王正旭講一下你要講一些一槌定音大家都點了來 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11661.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11674.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
謝謝主席謝謝趙委讓我有機會針對第三條做一些意見上的表達那剛剛趙市委員針對第一條的部分我相信第三條這邊我們還可以奢華來補強那有關你第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11675.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11692.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
本中心的業務範圍如下第一款就是要發展與建立醫療科技評估方法與指引在相對的立法說明裡面第二的部分他就講到醫療科技評估可應用於藥品醫療器材手術組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11693.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11710.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
健康政策或健康系統等範疇我們覺得這個部分其實還可以再加強加強的地方就是新醫療技術跟新醫療服務早上這個說明裡面我們也針對所謂新醫療技術也做了一些說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11711.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11727.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
為什麼我們很希望能夠把新醫療技術納進來因為未來的科技它不會是單純的藥物也不會是單純的醫療器材也不是單純的手術那台北都是已經合作了那個就是變成新的醫療技術那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11728.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11743.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
未來轉化成為健保處理的時候也有所謂的新的醫療服務等等所以如果我們不動相關的條文的話我們至少在立法說明裡面可以把在醫療科技評估可應用於藥品 醫療器材 手術處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11748.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11764.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
後面接著是新醫療技術再一個登號新醫療服務最後再連接到健康政策或健康系統的範疇就是針對立法說明的部分那我們也提了一個附帶決議到時候再麻煩大家一起來支持 謝謝陳昭志委員 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11774.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11793.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
第一條是討論這個業務範圍所以我覺得我寫的是比原來行政院版本清楚多了那就是說請他參考我的修正動議那第一條就是針對衛生醫療政策先有政策嘛才有開始做這些評估跟資源的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11794.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11817.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
進行這個資源分配的評估促進醫療資源的最佳利用這是然後第二個就是現在包括醫療服務還有藥物還有醫療這個科技等等這個評估內容第三個剛剛你們說不宜放在第一條那我也接受就是說具有建構具有苛責性的accountability這個字其實很多用很多年在很多範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11819.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11840.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
醫療科技評估的審議流程機制及方法學確保評估制度符合國際標準不兼具我國的國情因為這個是很關鍵大家可以想到一兆一年一兆的健保資源怎麼分配怎麼讓所有人都大概不滿意還可以接受的情況這個醫療科技評估是非常重要的必須是獨立專業也就是今天我們審查這個組織的組織法的重要目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11844.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11848.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那我第一項是寫持續監測跟評估已採用的醫療科技它是一個持續的過程是個continuous的一個process它持續評估因為不是要做對了一開始做就會是對的是持續評估那當然人才也非常重要第五點是在講人才的部分建立人才的培訓提升相關人員的理解跟應用能力等等而且當然要跟國際接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11868.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11878.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那第六的部分就是要參與國際的醫療科技組織因為在國際上我們落後太久了其他的國家大概這樣的組織大概都已經行之有年 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11879.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11887.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那第七點 第三點剛剛課則的部分要請部長特別能夠確認支持第七點也是很重要 訂定公共參與的機制這個幾乎現在 這個公共參與簡單的說 某個程度這個病人或民眾的參與是非常重要的現在任何攸關整個國家資源配置的一個組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11900.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11918.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就是當事人或國民的參與是非常重要所以訂定公眾參與其實符合醫療科技評估社會參與的精神這個要社會參與不是一群專家學者關起門來做評估然後把結果就是丟出去過去比較是這樣的做法所以我這一條的修正動議是大概以這樣的精神來寫再請部長回應 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11929.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11936.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我看修正綜藝你們這個方向就有點不太一樣請內閣部長來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11942.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11955.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
第一個是有關王振旭委員剛剛所提到把醫療科技評估的範圍把它含納到新醫療技術如果按照醫療法人體試驗所謂的新 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11961.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11986.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
藥品新醫材跟新醫療技術確實是有這個新醫療技術這些比較新的東西所以在立法說明裡面去強調醫療評估的對象我們是用醫療服務因為幾乎上都稱為醫療服務那再把它說明也包含新醫療技術我們覺得是可以在立法說明裡面讓他更清楚我們的競表支持那至於陳昭志委員的修正動議是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11988.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12009.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
比較複雜不過大致上的精神是相同那麼唯一一個比較特別的地方是陳委員特別強調可克則性的醫療科技評估的審議流程機制之方法學 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12009.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12038.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那這個倒是可以我們可以考慮在我們的行政院版本的第三條的第一款的部分這裡講的就是那個醫療科技評估的方法跟指引那在這一個這個您的意思應該是在這一個階段就是在出這個科技評估報告它需要是有一個審議的流程機制這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12040.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12064.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
HTA要有它的方法學跟課則性所以我們可以在第一款的部分來做修正就是發展與建立具課則性的醫療科技評估方法及審議機制方法指引及審議機制這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12066.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12088.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
就把您的那個第一款 發展第三條的第一款發展與建立具特責性的醫療科技評估方法指引及審議機制流程機制那個是一樣的審議機制這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12093.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12119.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
謝謝部長把這個課者的概念這樣啦 這條這樣啦這個意見其實也還好啊 他同意可能你個別委員很抱歉 我認過 我知道你就聽我說 我就敘述現狀其他的委員其實跟行政院版本一樣就招致委員你有一些不同的意見那是不是我們這一條先暫保留部長都同意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12120.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12147.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
他沒有全部都同意啦我就要做宣告就是說再跟委員來溝通那並參照委員的意見研擬相關文字再提出來處理啦我們沒辦法用嘴巴講啦到最後一定要提文字修正嘛好不好那我們等一下回頭再來處理這一條先暫時保留主席我們跟教職委員之間有一點點不同那我是不是可以很快簡短的補充那看看教職委員是不是可以同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12149.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12168.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
好 謝謝但是也要下出來是 跟昭志委員報告這個第三點的可責性的HTA評估部長已經同意納入我們的機制了那您在第一點寫到衛生醫療政策的資源分配事實上資源分配的責任主要是在健保署跟衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12169.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12193.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這一個Chapter主要是做評估讓健保署跟衛福部做資源分配所以可能寫在這裡可能還有待商榷其他您提到的第二點ChapterHTA的支付跟醫療科技審查已經寫在裡面第四點持續評估跟監測這個也寫在裡面第五個醫療科技評估人才並培養具國際視野人才這個寫在我們的第五點 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12194.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12216.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
辦理國內外醫療科技評估交流合作那在您的第七點遞定公共參與的機制這個也符合我們目前Chapter的精神所以不曉得有沒有機會如同部長所說的我們把您說的可克則還有這個審議評估機制及方法學納入我們的第三條作為這一條的共識以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12219.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12234.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
基本上當部長同意把可克者這個重要因為大家都 這很重要啊因為在分配資源所以你可以把克者的概念引進這樣的一個這個精神好 那這樣就大家知道意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12235.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12253.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
在場有很多委員我們沒有辦法你們講完什麼到底你們的共識是什麼還是要行之文字好不好這個是審法案裡面這個本來SOP就是要這樣子的不然你們說說而已你們兩個玩意而已我不知道要怎麼跟你們同歸社會還是要把文字寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12255.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12272.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
來 我先處理程序因為要處理一下會議時間原定會議時間已經到了但是我們要繼續開了所以先處理會議時間我們中午就不休息上午的會議我們就繼續來進行討論事項的處理來 第三條我們就暫保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12282.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12302.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
第四條各個提案的條文內容其實都相同我們就按照行政院提案版本通過第五條各提案條文內容均相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過第二張張明各提案的張明均相同我們就按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12304.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12320.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
第6條 除了郭育晴委員等16人提案以外其餘各提案內容相同還有陳昭之委員有提一個修正動議第6條其實也很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12334.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12353.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
第幾項 跟主席跟委員報告在第六條郭玉琴委員所提到的要包含並有團體代表或維護並有權益的專業人士我們已經溝通過因為這個就包含在專業人士裡面所以第六條郭委員的部分我們已經溝通過 以上補充好 程昭之委員來 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12355.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12378.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
你不要說我跟別人不一樣我跟別人不一樣是好事你不要當作是每天都壞事我不會說的不就是壞事我不會說這一點我們有一個重要的修正動議的精神是說董事會的不應該是由透過官方過半的人數來整理那如果直接看數字我們在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12382.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12400.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們主張這個官方政府相關機關代表不得超越三分之一但是行政院版是二分之一是官方不得少於官方不得少於這個跟我們是有最大的這個差異也是在這個地方因為整個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12401.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12416.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這樣的設計當然行政院這樣的設計有助於行政體系掌握但事實上這個醫療科技本身是很高度專業需要獨立判斷的工作在過度受到行政立場或政策的影響我們是盡量能夠避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12416.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12436.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那我要講的是這一點我們參考三分之一報告主席我們這個也有參考來源我們參考國家電影及視聽文化中心的寫法那修法說明第二點也有講可能依然科技評估因為這是個高度專業以及跨領域為了避免董事的運作過度行政化並且提高本這個中心專業判斷獨立性跟社會信任度 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12437.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12450.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因為你在分配資源你在評估然後可不可以用到這麼寶貴的健保資源所以我們覺得這個社會信任度跟專業獨立性是非常重要的所以我們希望這個由政府相關機關出任的董事比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12454.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12466.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
應該是不得預三分之一不得預全人數三分之一其他我們可以邀請學者 專家 社會人士來參與包括剛剛郭育群委員提到的病人代表的部分我們最重要的堅持點在這個地方請部長參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12472.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12485.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好 謝謝 其實這個條文修正動議裡面啦就是三分之一到二分之一這個這樣而已啦 意見都可以你給他比這樣OK什麼意思 來 那個有事要委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12488.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12509.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
確實我過去在教育文化委員會那個電影視聽中心確實是有這樣規定那是因為在藝文界的人才的部分好像民間廣納人才但是這個部分我這邊不曉得有沒有行政院的法治的相關人員我們畢竟成立了非常多這樣子的中心組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12510.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12531.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
有涉董監事的那剛交資委員提的是這個電影視聽中心的案例啦對於董事會官方代表不得超過二分之一或三分之一就我的印象中好應當二分之一因為要客責嘛政府負責嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12533.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12543.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以那個常態的規定哪些二分之一跟三分之一在其他的設立中心有董事會的組成的經驗上是什麼可能大家來參考一下可能周延一點那我想需要有這方面資訊來有利於我們來判斷人種 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12557.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12572.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
在現行的這個設置條例裡面對官方的一個要有設置比例的部分目前是我們檢視初步沒有看到有對於政府機關代表的這個要一定的比例的這部分沒有這樣的一個限制有 我們有把這個條文對照表都有列出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12590.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12596.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
如果您的意見的話就是之前的那個電影視聽中心是唯一那現在第二個是唯二嗎是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12601.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12616.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
陳昭之委員修正案您就是要將政府的保障降低因為這個醫療科技你說大家不辦我也盡量慢慢講不要生氣慢慢講沒有啦 沒有人生氣我是叫你不要氣不噴我才會生氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12617.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12632.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
目前很急 我講話比較快我慢一下一兆元的可能將來會更多對金剛投資的部分那他是在決定這個資源有沒有價值去給付該不該付 要不要付 付哪些這個是全民 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12633.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12661.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
都會受到影響所以他不是一個單純的行政工作那為了讓這個結合公共他其實專業包括公衛包括臨床專業健康經濟成本效益分析那病人使用的經驗跟社會價值判斷有些人你看了你覺得他不能他能走出家門他能去上課他能去上班這些過去都沒有在健保新藥新科技的評估考慮範圍過去我們都在考慮錢我有多少錢做多少事 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12662.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12687.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那好不容易成立了這一個那如果董事會是比較行政機關代表我比較擔心會出現說評估結果就會被行政考量主導那專業意見就淪為諮詢 參考用這樣結果社會對這個評估的信任這個成立它的信任度就是還是降低啦所以我們是這樣子去設計目的就是這樣讓大家都能夠接受也能夠檢測甚至有一定的透明度 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12687.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12702.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因為這關係每一個人啦老少小 每一個人的現在就是你要把政府的本來是二分之一的現在變三分之一了來 機關再說明那個跟委員說明聚焦啦 好不好 你們聚焦啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12703.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12732.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們在這個訂定的時候確實也有參考目前已經通過的各個行政法人那麼在行政法人裡面如果涉及到國家高度介入或者是具有特殊敏感性的行政法人那麼政府機關代表都是不得少於二分之一譬如說國家資通安全研究院設置條例那麼第一項第一項都是政府代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12732.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12746.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那麼都不得低於董事總人數的二分之一那麼譬如說在這個國家太空中心設置條例也是不得少於總人數的二分之一那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12748.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12768.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
另外就是比較會涉及到這個高度比較管制的或者是敏感性的大概都會有這樣的考量那因為我們考慮到這個HTA的中心其實他會需要用到我們很多健保的資料也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12769.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12797.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
或一些這個醫療的資料是屬於比較高敏感性所以我們才會參考像國家之通安全研究院因為後面的人員也一樣會被管制的他是會被管制的人員所以國家之通安全研究院的設置條例或者是國家太空中心設置條例那麼有這樣的這個政府機關代表不得少於二分之一的條文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12798.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12801.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這個考量以上說明主席請求發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12803.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12828.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
張正旭委員說明謝謝剛剛張志祺委員很期待未來這個苛責性透明性透明度都是讓全民可以得到很大的信任可是這個苛責性本身如果連結到我們這個董建市這個任命或者人數的話可能要有一定的一定的可以可以讓他去針對苛責跟負責之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12831.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12856.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
要有一個配套或者是要有一個衡平所以我的意思就是說如何能夠讓克則跟這個代表之間有一個衡平性剛剛部長也做了說明我相信剛剛任總那邊也做了說明是不是針對克則性跟這個比例之間有一個更需要讓在這個討論可以更為完整的部分可不可以再提供意見 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12858.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12879.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
關於政府機關代表的這個設置比例的部分大概有兩個方向的一個不同的一個訂定那其中有五個就是法人的部分是有規定說不得低於二分之一就是政府機關代表不得低於五分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12879.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12905.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
二分之一包含住都中心還有文化內容及策進院那再來是資通安全資安院然後再來還有太空中心以及原子能科技研究院這五個設置條例是規定政府機關的代表不得低於總是總人數的二分之一就是不得低於那另外也有規定就是不得超過的不得超過的是包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12912.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12919.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
國家運動訓練中心是規定說董事不得超過三分之一那再來還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12922.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12948.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
對 政府不得超過三分之一那還有剛剛委員特別提到的這個電影及視聽文化中心這個也是不得超過三分之一那再來還有運科中心這個也是不能超過三分之一那還有另外兩個包含運動產業發展中心跟海洋科技營運中心也都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12949.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12963.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
就是在運動產業發展中心也是不能超過三分之一所以它大概有這些不同的方向的一個不同的一個訂定那是依機關的一個需要跟組織的性質來做這樣的一個處理以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12965.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12987.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
來 機關再說明 就是說不一定要二分之一你們會覺得對於整個法律制定 你們才可以把它達到它的功能啦招致委員是說 我特別三分之一得就是不要說全部都在政府 都是官方在去做主導啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12989.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12996.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
兩個不同的邏輯各自言之成理啦但是請你們再說明您可以說服啊 好不好剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12999.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
13027.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
沒關係 他要回應你他要回應你趙執委員謝謝就是趙執委員一開始提到的可克者我們已經納進來也充分理解說這個國家科技醫療評估中心扮演至關重要幾副再幾副 停職幾副的角色但是關於為什麼我們在行政法人的部分目前在部長的指導之下Chapter我們是設定不得低於二分之一我們是比照資通安全研究院原因就在於剛剛部長所提到的我們這個Chapter |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
13028.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
13042.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
國家科技醫療評估中心會牽涉到我們的99.99全民涵蓋的健保資料庫是特級敏感資料那我們希望政府代表不得低於二分之一維持政府的可克責性以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
13045.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
13063.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
說服不了我這個跟裡面幾個人一個就要泄密出去了這個有自有規範每個被聘的委員跟董事都簽有一定的規範剛剛我也嘗試說王醫師在說克責當然覺得克責要官員來克責不是你只要有權利去做任何事情做任何提出任何幾乎都是要參考因為等一下後面的幾題我也會提到健保署也顧了很多專家給他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
13070.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
13091.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
其實這個專家本身也要對他所作所作的評估要負起責然後建議這個要不要給幾付甚至我要合你多少錢這權利很大所以只要這個機制這個課則不是把你抓去關這個課則就基本上你的機制要很清楚你的最好還是透明的然後每一個人的背景都可以被檢驗等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
13093.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
13101.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個誰說只有政府可以被課責呢那太多人了那其他人不用被課責他們的課責現在都安裝現在沒有啦 現在名單都是秘密等一下我再遞到 繼續遞好啦 你先喝咖啡啦 吳思瑤你講話不要放 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
13107.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
13122.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
为什么刚刚我要特别谨慎的请任总再去查清楚他所说的内容因为这就跟我们过去在审查非常多的这种法人的组织在组成董事会的成员他是非常严谨的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
13123.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
13141.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
所以經過這些報告還有剛剛布里頭的再說明我確實就是更堅定了我的看法我要支持願版正因為這樣一個新設的組織它政府是承擔高度的政治責任而且這高達99.8%的全民健保的這些list資料庫的機敏的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
13146.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13172.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以說讓政府的所以第一個要跟教資委員報告這個二分之一政府代表要達到二分之一不是這個組織新創而是過去好幾個精明的而且它是涉及國家重要政策發展事項的這些新設的法人組織你看住都中心 文策院當時我們在做這個文化部門的時候確實對於文策院也是討論了很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13173.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13198.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
然後再來資安院更不用說太空是因為國家正在發展的重要的太空實力我們不能夠落後國際所以強化對於政府的投入某種程度就是強化對於政府的苛責然後當然還有這個原子能這當然它的重要性也不在話下所以我是希望說招資委員能夠去 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13200.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13227.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
理解大家外界都有一種錯覺是說都是你政府的人所以你就不被監督了反而相反因為你是政府的人來作為這個重要政策重要組織的營運或是決策的時候我們立法委員在監督跟要求反而可以更精準對焦否則當你三分之二都是外部委員的時候我們怎麼克責啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13228.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13250.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們可以把外部委員請來立法院監督嗎所以這個是一種比較長期會存有的一些些的不同的想法所以我是希望這個機關的重要性特殊性重大健康政策的進步性我們擴大的民間參與的同時我們絕對願意去延攬民間的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13255.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13270.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
但是對於政府要承擔政策的責任的這一項站在立法院監督的角色我是希望比照其他的法人組織我們一樣政府的機關人員還是要達到過半的比例這是我的思考這條 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13277.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13281.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我不是不跟你說,你要說什麼我都可以說問題是大家都說不通,連口仔都沒意思我把這條先暫保留,等下回來再處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13302.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13309.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
第七條 第七條各提案的條文內容均相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13311.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13338.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
第八條各提案的條文內容也都一樣我們就按照行政院的提案通過第九條各提案的條文內容都一樣大家看一下長得一模一樣就按照行政院的提案通過第十條各提案的條文內容也均相同就按照行政院的提案通過第十一條各提案的條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13339.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13363.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第十三條各提案的條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第十四條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第十五條除了郭玉琴委員等16人提案以外其餘各提案內容均相同郭玉琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13370.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13390.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
主席還有委員跟在座各位委員報告在這一題呢我們去看過我們目前政府所有的行政法人目前全部都是寫說應該要親自出席列席董事會議不得委託他人代理所以我們是比照其他的行政法人那郭委員那邊我們已經溝通過以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13391.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13420.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
好第15條按照行政院提案通過第16條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第17條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第18條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第19條各提案的條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過20條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13422.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13445.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
21條 各提案條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過第三章 各提案的章名均相同 按照行政院提案通過22條 各提案的條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過23條 各提案的條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13446.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13474.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
24條各提案的條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過25條各提案的條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過第四張章的章名各提案的章名均相同按照行政院的提案通過26條各提案的條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過27條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13476.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13499.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
28條各提案的條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過29條各提案的條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過30條各提案的條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過31條各提案的條文內容均相同 按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13501.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13519.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
32條各提案的條文內容均相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過第5章的張明各提案的張明均相同我們按照行政院提案通過33條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13522.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13534.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
34條各提案條文內容均相同我們就按採行政院的提案通過35條各提案條文內容均相同按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13541.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13556.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
來 第三條討論事項第五案修正動議二這是第三條陳昭之委員修正動議請宣讀修正動議二 第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13558.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13572.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
第一項第一款修正委發展與建立具科則性質醫療科技評估方法指引及審議機制與同行政院提案提案人陳昭芷等人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13578.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13589.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這樣就 大家看一下啦就給那個第一款的修正啦我告訴你 你們有夠厲害的啦給他講一下就通過了 你們就看好 那我們就按照修正動議通過滴落 滴落掉 要再講一下嗎阿咖啡喔 你們就講一下有結論的 好不好那是看你們怎麼有人喝的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13612.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13636.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
主席我再多插一句話因為可以看這個剛剛已經通過的第20條這個本中心的人員他都有一般查安全查核跟特殊安全查核的規定而且情節重大的還要送移送監察院依法辦理等等這一些這些安全查核不是所有的行政法人都有這個機制是這個比較特殊的所以因為他會接觸到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13638.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13664.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
等同像這個健保一樣的這個健保資料資料庫那甚至他要去連結其他的資料庫所以他真的是需要叫一般的這個行政法人的監督要更強度更高所以我們是希望委員能夠支持在董事會裡面那麼以政府機關代表的董事能夠那麼二分之一這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13666.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13667.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
主席要聽我講話了我講白話我講白話多迷人請講 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13672.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13698.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那個苛責 苛責的意思其實是指整個決策過程剛剛那個部長講的是說已經做壞事了他把東西偷走了或過去確實有健保健保祖密這樣把他帶出去尤其情資人員給對案那是非常恐怖的事我現在講我們的苛責觀念是指說你整個決策你整個評估結果或是你使用的標準等等那是一個比較透明的方式一個大家可以去驗證檢驗的方式概念在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13701.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13721.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我想你問任何一個病人他們都不會清楚為什麼你的藥 我跟你一樣的病你的藥有幾副 我的藥沒有幾副這個是很常見甚至我自己要下去自費等等我是用最簡單的比喻所以基本上只要任何人你有去參與做這個決策的過程那你就要遵循一定的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13722.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13748.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
譬如說這個藥在臨床上有所突破還是說比現在跟差不多還是一樣那為什麼我只納入你沒有納入別人我先舉例譬如說現在以藥品來說它有個適應症就是公法定的這個用途但是我們健保在癌症的部分在頂多只付三分之一百分之三能夠被給護照罕病更少當然貴嘛再放在這個大概只有兩成左右但你這個絕熱過程怎麼選擇怎麼調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13751.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13775.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
你跟他說你愛什麼你愛什麼我要保持那個嗎是啦 你愛目的 你要愛什麼機關在回應你想要怎麼樣我們叫專家的比例比較高是 我們一個條文制定的意義就是說我要達到什麼樣的目的你現在的缺漏到底是怎麼樣你說機關現在的說明沒有辦法滿足你嘛不好意思你提出來說你現在要愛他沒辦法滿足你 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13778.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13791.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
哪一部分不好意思 我講這個話重一點官官相護啦官官相護不是滿足的問題啦我的意思就是說我希望外部的參與戰略比較高啦OK 這樣我聽好來 機關再回應機關再說明一下我們還是這個對委員同樣啦這個 我們這個這個行政法人的很多條文的比例原則的設計呢都是高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13809.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13825.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個監管啦所以希望能夠維持政府機關代表能按有二分之一比照這個資通安全研究院的規格我算 趙指揮我算孤注你知道嗎我聽你們外國人在這裡說來 培宇委員講完再請施堯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13825.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13848.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
好 其实赵志伟刚刚讲到两个部分我其实也很想厘清像主席你问的一样因为赵志伟刚刚说例如说寒病的用药或者是癌症的用药其实能够被接触的很少你刚刚有提到这个例子所以你认为在这个审议过程的结果之后如果当事人或者是相关人士对于这个审议的结果有疑义你觉得大家好像可以提出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13849.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13877.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以你好像是針對這個部分你覺得苛責的部分不足我不確定因為你一直在講苛責這個比例至於所謂的公部門派去的人這個比例我覺得有一個問題是大家必須要考量的因為我們在立法院待這麼多年其實相關的預算其實是由相關行政機關來理解或者是把關或者是審議如果我們都完全沒有相關行政機關的人或是比例太低沒有辦法表達出行政機關的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13878.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13906.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那我覺得那個在比例上其實會有很大的困境啦那我當然認同趙思維委員的人道關懷跟人權的關懷我完全可以理解那只是說行政機關的角色他們所能夠呈現出來看到預算的或者是政策的走向或者是預算的使用合理性所以我認為行政為不不堅持相關的比例應該還是有其原因的那當然這是我的猜測因為我們在不同的委員會不同的法人機構裡面也會看到不同的組成比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13906.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13936.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以我想就還是讓衛福部說明他們之所以有這個在意的點到底是什麼謝謝來主席不在因為他是說講話換我這樣子好那就請市長委員來幫忙發言我是立法委員我們在立法院是我們唯一能夠透過審查法案審查預算或是排案來監督政策來watch替人民行使權利去 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13937.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13950.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
苛責行政部門該承擔的政策責任那如果說一個組織他的董事會他的重要的決策的那個核心政府部門反而變成少數了那我來苛責他 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13953.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13979.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
有一些意見覺得說你這個中心跟當初的執行背道而馳喔那怎麼會這樣然後未來這個東西中心的董事長說不然我當事會就這樣決定這是會發生的喔所以說比照太空中心資安駐都中心文策院文策院非常重要喔他是把我們對於文化藝術的從過去的執走補助一軌現在改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13980.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13991.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
外加投資一軌這是一個新的政策方向所以國家要去為自己的新新的政策方向去負起責任take responsibility |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13992.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
14010.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
所以說tech responsibility跟你的accountability其實我覺得是同一件事我反而不會認為說像交資委員覺得說你政府占多了所以說你的席次過二分之一我反而好像沒有辦法watch到你我真的這個思維反而是顛倒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
14010.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
14035.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那另外我要說也許有另外一種方式好招資委員想的是說讓民間的人多參與這個方向我們沒有反對那你現在的董事設11到15人我舉例啦要不你讓董事的員額增加多一點點好比如19到20然後一樣維持政府的這個比例政府還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
14036.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
14050.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
負全責嘛行政責任負全責嘛但是為了增加多一點人來參與民間的專家的話那如果在設置的人數上做一些調整會不會是一個讓交資委員也接受的這樣子謝謝吳委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
14060.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
14075.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
剛剛大家都可以舉很多的機關當然我們也舉運動訓練中心因為那也是高度專業的他們裡面也是三分之一剛剛我也提到國家電影跟視聽化中心也是三分之一那這個醫療科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
14077.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
14090.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
真的今天為什麼要設計醫療可以本來我們就有一個醫療評估小組已經服務健保署所需要的因為業務的推展等等都已經從2007年11月開始已經服務了大概18、9年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
14092.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
14096.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那為什麼今天要成立這個就是保證他的一個專業跟獨立性然後這個現在大家國民對這些過程對他最後分配的資源他盡了義務等等也是非常高度重視不過不會像裴委員講的不是每一個人他說為什麼我要沒有我剛剛強調的其實是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
14112.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
14133.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個要由專家學者在裡面的過程當中他們其實在一個相對決策是透明的有標準機制是可以被討論的情況之下他們做出這個決定老實說我最後這幾年在健保署看的我必須說你們聘了三四十個委員在現場最後都是幾個官員說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
14135.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
14163.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
因為大家就轉向你啊沒錢啊 現在多少錢 你就做最後決定連主持人主持完講完 講完喔那因為我當立委後 後來我被開除OK 但第一年沒有被開除之前我還是參加 然後我把主持人辭掉連主持人 我看到嚇一跳每個主持人主持完那個專家會議然後最後說 請問健保署的意見是什麼把我嚇到啦他就算三四個人是當然委員因為職位相關 即便在場幾十個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
14165.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
14193.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那都可以也是可以這樣子做啊大家就聽所以基本上是這個是一個非常重要的時刻了也很感謝說能夠推出來本來你是在去年要推出來了那現在今年推出來了我們這個資源我們不能好好做一個典範嗎其實在很多先進國家他們討論很多包括疫苗的通過包括整個這個一個一個授權都是透明公開的那我們今天不是我今天剛才強調那個機制標準有一定的方法其實是那個背景專家學者不是指病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
14193.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
14198.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
病人是他是參與可能一兩個角色我講的專程是健康經濟公共衛生這個成本效益評估等等其他的國家都可以參考 很好聽到沒有人的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
14209.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14227.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我想舉一個例子不好意思 發便當 邊吃飯邊講我想講一個例子其實不管在民間的任何專家學者都有機會成為官方委託的所謂官派的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14228.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14253.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以他的专业并不因为他今天坐在所谓民间这一排或者是官派代表那一排而有所减损所以我其实没有办法直接的接受刚刚赵斯委员直接用官官相互来控诉这件事情那也因为他即将要成相关的法理要成立那我认为站在支持相关的版本的前提下而且也请赵斯委员信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14254.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14272.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
所有這些官派的代表也請信任相關行政機關他絕對不會找一個阿貓阿狗放進來然後你認為他是不合格的我認為每一個人在自己的專業的位置上都有不同的視角去切入去看你剛剛所在意的這些事情而不是只是用一個官官相互就認為您所提的比例就一定是對的 以上委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14276.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14290.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
教育委員 我很認真的在想達到彼此的共識那剛剛也跟崇良部長商量了一下最後倒數第二項我們如果從現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14293.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14307.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
行政院的版本不得官方董事不得少於董事總人數的二分之一我們把它改成不得超過董事人數的二分之一就是說你保持二分之一的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14309.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14333.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這個比例因為真的是比照資安會啦太空中心這個重要國家的新興的重要領域的發展好那個1%把它維持但是從不得少於調整為不得超過他就是有一些不得欲啦這個就有差別了好不好我覺得石部長也充分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14334.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14353.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
往您的方向來推進不得欲 董事總人數的二分之一因為那二分之一 那不要動它啦我剛才說的 跟其他的單位那個重要機敏的 重要國家政策的部分齊平 那二分之一不要動但是我們很努力的達到 您所希望的那個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14354.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14371.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以我覺得這樣應該是大家可以compromise而且彼此都尊重的方法 好不好謝謝 吳思耀委員 早知我看這樣好了你看看 執政黨對於哪好就好你的案子沒那麼多成案的都大家跟你簽的 你知道嗎我拜託大家要配合你 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14377.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14384.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
謝謝你啦 讓我另外一個案子讓你們怕被羞辱到不行那就不敢了 你在亂講你每次都說我們兩個人好都不可以支持我們兩個人好 你也不支持過民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14390.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14398.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
有共識的事情我們就做啦有共識的事情我們就做啦有共識的事情我們就做啦有共識的事情我們就做啦有共識的事情我們就做啦有共識的事情我們就做啦有共識的事情我們就做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14411.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14439.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
其實王正旭委員他知道我在講什麼啦他也進入比較短的一段時間啦我們都是真的為了讓病人能夠有一個比較合理公平的使用嘛每一個人都可能是病人嘛每一個人都可能是進入這個狀況我們希望有一個比較符合醫療科技方的評估所以現在你們是說不得少於改成欲不得超過嘛就是欲不能超過那也可以等於嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14441.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14470.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
不超过那也是等于哦也是等于哦等于有一半了但是就是1比1啦没有超过啦至少就是1比1不会是还是有差别的还是有差别的官方就是还是会以这个那我们就按照不得欲是不含本术不得欲OK但是不得欲的解读要解读对哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14472.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14495.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這樣啦 按照成招之委員的修正動議但是那個不得遇董事總人數該二分之一啦好不好 這樣可以啦好 那我們就通過就是這個面子是給莊瑞雄招委員這是大家共事 好不好 大家幫你洗腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14500.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14507.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我在裡面很久我真的是清楚我另外一個法要釋法我反而跑來這裡機關這邊擰一下給陳昭志委員簽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14521.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14534.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我們現在處理委員針對第五案所提的附帶決議共兩案請一併宣讀 宣讀後在主案來進行處理 請宣讀宣讀討論事項第五案附帶決議共兩項附帶決議一略以 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14540.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14555.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
要求本條例第六條所涉董事會聘任之學者專家不得同時為衛生福利部含轄下機關之諮詢專家提案人陳昭芝等人附帶決議二略移為因應科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14556.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14556.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這樣這個不就 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14589.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14589.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這裏附帶決議 有沒有意見好 那我們就附帶決議啊好 那我們就召喚通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14611.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14632.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那附帶討論事項第五案的附帶決議第二王正旭委員的提案大家有意見嗎 衛務部機關有沒有意見遵照辦理那我們就召喚通過這是第六第五案 第五案在修正那邊那個修正東西簽名誰再說第五案他不簽名他現在吃不動沒有聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14641.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14650.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
討論事項第五案修正動議三第六條第 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14670.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14699.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
第二項修正為前項第一款是董事不得與董事總人數二分之一提案人陳昭芝等人宣讀完畢第六條我們就按照陳昭芝委員的提案修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14707.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14718.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
本案逐條均已處理完畢 來做以下宣告本案審查完畢 擬拒審查報告提請院會公決本案是否交由黨團協商好 那本案就不須交由黨團協商院會討論時由莊召集委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14737.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14757.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
需要 需要 需要 需要 需要 需要這個附帶要簽嗎 法案要交由黨團協商那院會討論時由莊召及委員瑞雄出席說明附帶決議兩項一併提報院會來處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席跟議事人員來整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14759.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14779.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那我們現在來討論事項第六案 病案審查行政院函請審議國家中醫研究院設置條例草案等14案請問在場委員是不是要進行大力討論我們直接進入主條的審查來 現在修正動議先宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14788.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14808.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
討論事項第六案修正動議一第三條增訂第二項為本院依前項任務之需要得附設相關機關及場館相關機關相關機構及場館之設置應兼顧並促進區域均衡之發展提案人陳穎等人選舉完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14819.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14841.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
現在名稱的部分我們是不是就按照行政院的提案通過沒有意見的話我們就按照行政院提案通過第一張張明各提案的張明都相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14844.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14861.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
第一條我們就按照行政院的提案通過第二條呢按照行政院的提案通過第三條就陳穎委員等四人所提修正動議大家有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14870.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14874.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
來 稱營委員的修正動議就增加了第二項本院依前項任務之需要得附設相關機構及場館相關機構及場館就設置應兼顧並促進區域均衡之發展請問機關有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14899.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14921.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
陳毅委員的修正動議我們原則上是支持就是預留了未來發展的需要但是文字的部分是不是說得附設相關機構及場館就好那個什麼相關機構及場館是設置應兼顧並促進區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14923.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14926.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
這個均衡式發展可以在立法說明裡面去強調就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14950.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14958.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這樣你們也 你們不要都這樣好不好 你們搞不好要有一個文字站起來站起來我就幫你們簽 有動的我就替你們簽這樣這條先暫保留 你們先把文字擬一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14983.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14986.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
第四條我們就按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
15016.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
15021.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
有關第四條我做更正行政院你現在又提了一個修正條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
15023.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
15050.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
要簽 要簽 要簽沒有看到條文主席只能這樣處理你們要做修正東西一定要看到文字等一下 等一下你們是要按原提議還是你們的修正我們的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
15054.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
15058.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
你委員的心都用嘴講的就有尊嚴嗎我們這裡沒有人嘴講的尊嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
15081.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
15107.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
跟委員說明第四條本來行政院的版本第一項有叫做得負責宜蘭病症中醫研究教學醫療機構那其他的委員都是希望說不要只限於宜蘭病症可以是中醫教學研究醫療機構我們競表同意那麼第二個是我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
15108.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
15131.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
在這個訂定前項的醫療機構的時候要有一些管理跟監督的規章經這個董事會通過後來被查那這樣的修正的文字剛好跟羅廷偉委員的版本是一致所以是不是就直接按羅廷偉委員版本通過就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
15138.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
15160.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
他跟羅廷輝委員的版本一樣這樣你們建議這條你們是同意羅廷輝委員的版本喔我們如果修正後的文字就是跟羅廷輝委員版本的文字是一樣的就是把那個宜蘭雜症那幾個字刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
15162.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
15168.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那剛好羅廷偉委員的版本跟行政院的版本就是差那幾個疑難雜症疑難病症 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
15175.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
15191.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
沒有啦 我知道你們的意思啦 我的意思是說你們整個 不管你們要叫誰 議會你轉播啦不然你要照完正序 要照林月琴照誰的版本你除非全部都照他的版本 你要三日你應該要重新擬文字上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
15229.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
15233.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
因為第四條已經有羅廷萬委員的版本就是這個文字了 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
15247.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
15264.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
是啦 我的意思是說你們自己有版本 別人有的 我本來是叫你們的通過你們現在要別人的 你們先說就好 就是說你不要用你行政院的版本現在就是這個第四條就按照羅廷偉委員的版本通過 在場有沒有意見好 那我們就通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
15297.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
15299.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這樣現在的你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
15301.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
15323.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
各委員的提案裡面喔那很多行政院沒有相對應的條文喔現在鍾嘉斌委員第四條的提案陳穎委員 葉元之委員莊瑞雄委員 劉建國委員林月琴委員 沈發衛委員王玉銘委員 張雅玲委員現在其他的頒布的都不予採納喔就這樣 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
15335.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
15363.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
來 第五條 我是要幫你們捧場的 你們的案子總要給我繪起來來 第五條 按照行政院的提案通過第六條 按照行政院提案通過第二章的張明 各提案張明均相同 按照行政院提案通過第七條 按照行政院提案通過第八條 按照行政院提案通過第九條 按照行政院的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
15366.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
15383.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
第十条按照行政院提案通过第十一条按照行政院提案通过第十二条按照行政院提案通过第十三条按照行政院提案通过第十四条按照行政院提案通过第十五条按照行政院提案通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
15384.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
15408.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
这是15 16 16条按照行政院的提案通过第17条按照行政院的提案通过18条按照行政院提案通过第19条按照行政院的提案通过第20条按照行政院提案通过而第三张张明的按照行政院的提案通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
15410.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
15429.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
21条就按照行政院的提案通过22条按照行政院提案通过23条按照行政院提案通过第4张张明按照行政院提案通过第24条按照行政院提案通过25条按照行政院提案通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
15431.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
15444.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
26條按照行政院提案通過27條按照行政院提案通過28條按照行政院提案通過29條按照行政院提案通過30條按照行政院提案通過報告主席來是財政部代表發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
15459.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
15459.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
好來去健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
15461.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
15488.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
在中醫藥的條文第15條的部分在第15條的第一項第二款有提到就是因為依照行政院版本條草案的立法說明第一項是在訂名國家中醫藥研究院董事等人除今董事會特別局議同意之外原則是不可以跟中醫藥研究院進行買賣租賃承攬等交易的這些行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
15492.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
15506.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
是 對 那這個部分因為它現在這個第一項第二款的文字是提到說執行國家建設公共政策公益用途申請承租承購委託經營改良利用國有非公用不動產 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
15507.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
15523.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我們這邊要說明的是國有非公共不動產的管理機關是只有財政部國有財產署所以以行政院版本的草案的文字來看的話這一條的用意應該是要指的是說董事等人要 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
15523.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15540.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
成租成購的這些財產應該是國家中醫藥研究院的財產而不是國有非公用不動產所以中醫研究所他們之前在會前已經有洽本署這邊他們有做一個條文的一個修正那是不是可以請衛福部這邊做代表做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15543.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15570.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
來 請機關說明確實我們的考量有這些例外但是可能未來不夠完善所以我們同意把它修正依照公職人員利益衝突迴避法第14條第一項但書規定的情形就不再直線我們有一個修正的文字在請委員簽署部長你都要打屁股 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15571.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15572.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我一條一條給你們蒙耶我一條一條給你們蒙 蒙到你們大家你們是在修正文字趕快弄上來再來做更正 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15716.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15721.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
衛福部你們要特別留意一下我們在審任何的法案都是院會交付 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15724.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15749.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
教員教父喔 你們現在說的是你們自己說的喔你們自己說的 你要有提案啦 一定要有提案啦你沒有一個提案之後 我給你宣讀的是都照行政院提案通過耶 不是照你們修正通過耶你們修正那是不好的耶 那是你們自己開槓而已你一定要有一個提案修正通過好不好 不要這樣啦 那麼多條文講過那麼多次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
16442.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
16448.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好,來,請就座。那增加的修正動議,幾個字。好,沒有關係,所有增加的修正動議請宣讀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
16474.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
16503.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
討論事項第六案修正動議二第十五條第一項修正為董事兼是院長或該等職務相當之人及其關係人不得與本院為買賣 租賃承攬或其他教育行為但有公職人員立從土匪閉法等十四條第一項單書規定之情形經董事會特別決議者不在此限提案人王正旭等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
16505.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
16533.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
修正動議三第29條第一項本院所舉借之債務以具自償性質者為限應並應先送監督機關核定第二項預算執行結果有不能自償之餘時應即檢討提出改善措施報監督機關核定提案人王正旭等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
16537.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
16563.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
宣誓動議是第二項修正為前向人於退休之前生肖日及七個月內在任公務人員退休之前撫恤法以下簡稱退撫法第七十七條第一項各款所列職務之一且每月之齡薪酬總額超過同條所定金額時應由在任機關扣除其退休之前月數之縫及總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
16566.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
16595.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
未住經後收繳其餘額並繳回監督機關提案人王正旭等人修正動議五第34條修正為原機關現有依聘用人員聘用條例聘用之人員以下簡稱聘用人員其聘用契約尚未期滿且不願隨同移轉本院者與機關改制之日辦理離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
16597.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
16620.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
處依各機關學校聘僱人員離職給予辦法判以外並依其最後在職月資報酬為計算標準也是交發七個月之月資報酬但契約將屆滿人員依其提前離職之月數發給之潛下等於離職生肖日期七個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
16621.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
16644.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
在任推伏法第七條第一項各款所列職務之一且每月資領薪酬總額超過同條所定金額時應在任機關扣除離職月數之月之報酬後收繳其餘額並繳為監督機關原機關聘用人員於機關改制之日隨同移轉本院者 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
16646.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
16673.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
應於改制之日辦理離職並依各機關學校聘僱人員離職給予辦法規定辦理不加發七個月月資報酬並改依本院人事管理規章禁用提案人黃正旭等人修正動議六三十五條據莫修正為收繳其餘額 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
16674.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16678.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
第一項計謀修正為收繳其餘額並繳為監督機關與為修正提案人員證據等人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16704.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16729.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
副大學也宣讀一下你不是教育嗎少一個啊少一個是不好意思沒有辦法幫大家多一個人討論事項第六案附帶決議略移有見台東市台灣少數同時具備氣候土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16730 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16746.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
生態完整性質地區適合系統性發展藥物植物產業原要求中草藥產業廊道示範區應納入台東打造台東為國內藥材穩定之供應基地提案人陳寅等人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
16768.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
16791.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
這個部長這個就很完整了讓有一些更具備氣候土地生態研究完整性的地方適合系統性發展要用植物產業台東你加入打造它變成台東市國內藥材穩定的供應基地 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
16802.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
16819.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
來繼續主條那我們第15條我們就按照王正旭委員的那個討論事項第6案修正動議2照王正旭委員的修正動議通過15條我們就更正宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
16828.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
16831.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
叫王正旭委員修正動議通過29條那我們就來更正宣告依照討論事項第6案的修正動議3第29條更正宣告按照王正旭委員的修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
16860.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
16861.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我們接續來處理委員鍾嘉斌 委員陳盈 委員葉元芝 委員莊瑞雄委員劉建國 委員林月琴 委員沈發慧 委員張雅琳所提的案子 行政界也沒有對案我們這些就不予採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
16888.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
16905.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那第31條啊那這個內容其實大致都相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過第5章的章名各提案章名均相同按照行政院提案通過第32條按照行政院提案通過第33條修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
16917.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
16937.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
修正動議室機關這邊有沒有不同意見遵照辦理那我們就按照王正旭委員的修正動議通過34條修正動議 王正旭委員修正動議機關有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
16940.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
16958.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
遵照辦理那我們就第34條按照王正旭委員的修正動議通過第35條修正動議6機關有沒有不同意見遵照辦理那我們就按照第35條按照王正旭委員所提修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
16959.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
16988.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
第36條 按照行政院提案通過37條 按照行政院提案通過38條 按照行政院提案通過39條 各提案條文內容相同按照行政院提案通過40條 按照行政院提案通過41條 按照行政院提案通過42條 按照行政院提案通過43條 這提案跟條文都一樣按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
16990.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
17003.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
第六章的章明各提案章明均相同按照行政院提案通過44條按照行政院提案通過45條按照行政院的提案通過40 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
17013.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
17034.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
這個沒有刑 這是四十三條 四十二條 四十四條 四十三條就委員鍾嘉斌 委員陳瑩 委員岳元之 委員莊瑞雄 委員劉建國委員林月琴 委員沈發慧 委員張雅琳所提的這個行政院這邊也沒有對案 我們就不予採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
17040.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
17045.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
46條各提案的條文內容均相同我們就按照行政院的提案通過來 剛才暫保留的第三條就是討論事項第六案修正動議7就是剛才說到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
17065.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
17093.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
就說明就說明就我們念一下就考量執行第三條第一項任務時確實有附設相關機構及場館之需要第二項附設相關機構及場館之設置應兼顧並促進區域均衡之發展這個是王振旭委員陳穎委員在提案那我們就機關有沒有不同意見遵照辦理我們就按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
17097.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
17109.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
條文是行政院的提案我們立法說明裡面就按照陳穎委員 王正樹委員跟我們幾個提案的修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
17114.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
17130.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
報告主席這個修正動議條文有補新增的第二項本願依前項任務之需要得附設相關機構及場館那其他說明文字是依照陳委員的建議沒有錯這樣就 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
17137.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
17165.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
按照王正旭委員的提案那個修正動議通過好我們就更正按照王正旭委員的修正動議通過我們現在處理委員針對第六案所提附帶決議共一案這個已經宣已經宣讀了那附帶決議第一案請問提案委員有沒有補充說明沒有請問機關有沒有其他不同意見跟說明遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
17167.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
17167.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
哦哦哦哦哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
17184.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
17204.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
這個文字本來我們就已經授權我們議事人員這邊去做調整我們再把它唸一次就是這個修正動議條文王委員你聽一下 給你改一下就是本院依前項任務之需要本來是德設附設相關機構及場館我們現在就德 附 設相關機構及場館你去設就把它換掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
17210.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
17214.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
第一個設我們就劃掉了不用給他了是 同意可以喔好 謝謝王委員來 附帶決議第一案我們就轉通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
17228.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
17240.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
本案逐條均已處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 擬拒審查報告提請院會公決本案是否需交由黨團協商愛啦OK 好 就本案 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
17247.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
17277.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
整包的一定都交由黨團協商那本案就交由黨團協商院會討論時由莊昭及委員瑞雄出席說明附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席跟議事人員來整理議程所列事項都已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
17278.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
17289.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我告訴你 我們這是不簡單的發生什麼案件的時候是每一個人來這邊叫叫什麼大聲的 跟什麼一樣結果在審法案的時候 照顧不完的我會很負責任 要你信任 |