| IVOD_ID |
17205 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17205 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026011262 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-16T09:01:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-16T12:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:29:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685d5e05ed09790b032b2660730ed07ac7f0a219bd209750d2d23ce49461e99f7185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-16T09:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員林月琴等16人、委員何欣純等16人、委員王育敏等24人、委員邱若華等16人、委員黃捷等21人、委員蔡易餘等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員陳培瑜等19人、委員郭昱晴等21人、委員陳素月等16人、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人、委員王美惠等19人、委員林淑芬等25人、委員王正旭等18人、委員吳沛憶等19人分別擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」、委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」、委員范雲等17人、委員李彥秀等16人、委員羅廷瑋等17人、委員張雅琳等16人、委員吳琪銘等19人、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等26人、委員陳菁徽等17人、委員蘇巧慧等16人、委員顏寬恒等16人、委員劉建國等18人、委員黃健豪等17人、委員洪孟楷等21人及委員張嘉郡等19人分別擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」等30案。逕付二讀併案協商：委員郭國文等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:01:01 - 12:31:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1636.534 |
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1636.923 |
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由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2296.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2303.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 國民黨團的人到沒有要等國民黨團的人到沒有啦 國民黨團還沒到訪問一下 確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2330.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2355.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
對啦 你要去買三分器沒有啦 人家不來要怎麼開始因為你不是要跟社家屬你去調他沒把你放下去看怎麼處理看怎麼處理因為請委員你們在委員會的時候跟他承諾沒有放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2377.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2379.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
寫商前先寫商這邊我都幫你貼起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
3115.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
3143.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好好我們要開始了好協商會議開始現在進行協商額頭法請大家看協商通知的這個協商主題那另外有關這個徐曉新委員板將於今天進入二讀故一起加入這個協商那現在介紹在場的委員第一位是林月琴林委員再來是林淑恩林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
3145.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
3158.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
王振旭 王委員陳昭芝 陳委員介紹在場的官員 我們衛務部 呂健德次長社交署 周道軍署長還有法規會參事專門委員 許子惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
3161.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
3187.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 謝謝內政部副政司檢任視察蘇志門謝謝警政署科長鄭世哲好 謝謝還有專員王育俊王育俊有簽名 人不在了馬上通緝 OK消防署專門委員簡旭淳 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
3188.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
3200.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好 謝謝還有國土管理署檢任政工程師盧昭鴻 謝謝我們法務部參事汪洋君好 謝謝教育部國監署副組長郭志銀 謝謝勞動部勞動福祉退休師專務委李娟鳳謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
3209.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
3217.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
勞動條件及就業評審師科長楊怡婷謝謝勞動關係師專門委員許瓊月謝謝經濟部人事處專委張雅惠謝謝財政部國有財政署組長吳橋梅謝謝護稅署科長蔡旭毅謝謝國庫署科長洪培明謝謝經管會保險局科長陳佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
3243.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
3253.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
陳嘉禾是不是 謝謝然後原住民委員會社會福利署副處長洪寧 謝謝行政院人事行政總署專門委員謝艾倫 謝謝還有個人資料保護委員會籌備處科長曾傑好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
3262.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
3284.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
剛剛那個通緝 麻煩通緝一下好 謝謝那本案提報院會併案審查報告保留條文既有22條 另有附帶決議保留案8案然後由於本案具專業性 希望今日各保留條文盡量寫商通過 那也請各位委員中考量 衛福部也隨時溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
3285.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
3301.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那今天進行的方式 能請衛護部先做說明 再請各位委員提出意見那最後會眾協商結論 再請各黨團來簽名衛護部提出之相關建議條文 已經在各位委員的座上 請大家參閱好 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
3304.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
3332.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
現在我們就請衛務部先做說明好 請署長召委及各位委員大家早安今天是第三條 對不起 第三條我們說第三條的部分為了便於等一下在協商的過程委員可以參閱那我們大概有準備幾份基本資料那第一個是所有要保留的條文跟相關的事項我們先有準備一個基本的目錄那委員這邊應該都有提供各位委員可以參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
3333.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
3352.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那接下來就是這個我們在提供給委員資料這個彙整的表格裡面的話我們大概都基本上每一個條文都準備建議的建議的文字好那我們建議是不是等一下就可能我們會就建議欄的這個文字來跟委員做一個報告好那以下就就草案第三條的部分做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
3353.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
3377.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那草案第三條的部分先前在保留的過程主要的希望要需要處理的部分是第一個是有關定點零拖的部分要怎麼樣去做後續的這個如果要去把它納到這個法案裡面來處理的時候那在定義的部分需要對定點零拖加個定義所以我們增加增列在第六款裡面那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
3380.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
3409.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
搭配後面草案有關照顧爭議的部分的條文我們也甄列了在第20款對照顧爭議的部分我們甄列了一個定義的文字那我們大概就這個部分做了兩個文字的處理那簡單宣讀定點零拖的部分我們文字定義為指直轄市縣市主管機關於符合托育環境安全之指定處所自行或委託非營利性執法人機構或團體提供非固定時段之托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
3410.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
3427.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那第20款照顧爭議的部分我們定義是指兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人認為照顧情形不符其待應由托育人員負責所生之爭議以上好來請立書委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
3430.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
3456.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我想基本上大概都可以接受不過因為你們新增這個照顧爭議裡面所謂的照顧情形不符期待照顧情形不符期待好像太過廣泛不夠明確所以我們想說是不是能夠具體的講說應該是托育品質不符期待托育品質不符期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
3460.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
3479.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
行政長官表示意見我們當初用照顧情形不符而期待其實是有一些家長在反映的時候這個因為這個樣態真的非常的多那也有一些其實不一定完全涉及到品質例如說可能跟這個小朋友中間可能會吵架 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
3479.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
3498.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那或者是其他這個玩具有掉了的這種情形這個跟照顧的品質有的時候關聯看起來會比較弱一點點那我們覺得即使是這一類的狀況如果家長有反應的話還是最好能夠有一個機會做一個處理所以我們確實是把文字稍微放得寬一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
3498.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
3515.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那如果是這樣如果要當然如果要用這個照顧品質不符期待的話那可能會變成是這個會不會在實務執行面的時候因為縣市在談的時候可能他跟品質沒有直接關聯的時候會不會讓這個家長說那可能就鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
3516.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
3540.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就縣市就是說那不然就家長跟托育的單位自己來做一些協調跟處理我們是希望說讓縣市可以有比較深的或者比較廣的參與所以我們把定義文字稍微放大一點大概出發點是這樣是一個這樣的想法那當然如果說最後討論要用品質的話我們是可以接受請說因為整部法在討論這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
3548.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
3569.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個托育托育所以所以我們在講說你把照顧情形四個字雖然範圍放廣了但是基本上我們還是要限縮在是不是跟托育有關的托育品質那其他的爭議就用一般其實一般的架構一般法律有一些架構等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3572.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3601.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這裡是規範保姆 業者 機構他的托育所以我們應該是期待他在有托育品質不符期待的時候所衍生的這一些爭議托育人員負責所生的這個爭議等於是保姆要負責的小朋友吵架是保姆要負責的裡面當然是協調過程那玩具掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3601.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3614.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他要負責什麼也是跟托育品質有關的我們才比較受理嘛否則跟托育品質無關的我們會受理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3619.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3646.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們初步的想法是說就讓縣市在受理端的時候就不需要再去做一個說去篩選跟品質有沒有相關就是能夠開 因為這個後面在照顧爭議的時候 主要是縣市政府來幫忙做一個調處的動作讓縣市的門可以開大一點 能夠多來幫忙去處理這一類的狀況當然我們還是強調就是最後如果是用品質的話 我們沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3647.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3672.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
对因为你这个你讲的把门开很多可是其实他们的劳动条件都不是很好啦他们劳动条件流动率劳动条件不好流动率很高那你什么事情都要说要有争议然后就可以这个调除或者是就要干嘛其实可能会增加更多的门开太多的话可能会增加更多的负担呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3673.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3700.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以我們是不是應該限縮在說也不是限縮啦因為照顧爭議這四個這是照顧情形不符期待這四個字太廣泛門也開到無限的大了所以跟托育服務相關的應該限縮在跟托育服務相關的那托育服務相關的我們想一想是不是就是托育品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3702.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3731.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
其实托育品质也包含很多你说小朋友吵架了老师的调解的方式并没有那么好在这种状况里面其实也是托育品质也可以涵盖进来但他玩具掉了找不到了你说要叫老师去给他要调除这个跟托育品质有关吗吵架我觉得会但玩具掉了在哪里掉不知道这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3735.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3764.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是不是要想一下啦我是覺得好像也不算細說啦但是就門你照顧情形照顧情形不符合期待就太抽象了抽象了還是要具體一點應該都可以啦我覺得這個我們尊重我們配合對不對都可以啦好啦那我們就這個情形改為品質啦好不好各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有好那請衛福部宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3766.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3787.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第20款那重新宣讀第20款的文字照顧爭議指兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人認為照顧品質不符其待應由托育相關人員負責所生之爭議是不是托育品質托育品質 對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3789.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3811.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我重新再念一次照顧爭議指兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人認為托育品質不符其待應由托育相關人員負責所生之爭議以上好各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就修正通過那請衛福部列印出確定版再給各位做檢視謝謝那我們繼續來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3816.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3843.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是第6條那第6條的部分這個部分先前大部分的文字都已經討論過有一個確認那其中大概在在第6條的部分有一個主要要處理的是當時委員的版本裡面有一個是希望對於應該是月刑委員的條的版本裡面有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3845.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3847.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
他希望增訂一個條文就是直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3849.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3877.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
縣市主管機關辦理定點零拖服務他的場地跟環境的要求那因為我們是覺得這一個條文主要是規定指的是縣市主管機關而不是針對定點零拖的所以我們是建議這個部分文字可以拆出來會放到另外一個條次序那但是文字的部分我們是可以接受我們是可以配合月行委員的條文版本我們文字稍微做一點小的文字整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3877.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3903.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這個調適我們會建議會是擺在目前照院版的調適安排的話會擺在第18條之後那針對定點零託部分這個調適我們會去到最後再順文字內容是直轄市縣市主管機關辦理定點零食托育服務其場地應符合居家托育環境安全規定且人員應具居家托育人員資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3904.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3931.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
前項定點臨時托育服務之監督檢查與輔導及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央主管機關定職 以上好來有沒有委員要表示意見沒有意見沒有意見好那我們第6條就修正通過那請衛部一樣列出確定版再給提供給各位委員做檢視那繼續審查第 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3936.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3961.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
16條請行政機關說明跟委員報告那個主要的爭議在第6這個新增的條文的部分那第6條本文的部分那文字當時在審查完之後有幾個地方的文字也需要再做一個確認那我們把這個跟行政院版不同的地方的文字我們一併再宣讀一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3962.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3985.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第一個直轄市縣市主管機關掌理下列事項第一款的部分會甄列推廣就是直轄市縣市托育服務政策與方案之規劃訂定推廣宣導研究及執行第二款第三款維持行政院版的條文第四款文字修正為直轄市縣市居家托育服務中心之輔導監督及檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3988.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
4017.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那第五款第六款第七款的文字與行政院版的草案相同第八款第六條縣市政府的職責因為當時委員版對於縣市政府應該做的工作版本中間有一些不一樣的這個原來在研擬的時候有不一樣的設計所以我們把綜合的委員版的條文在主要是增訂在第四款然後另外增訂第八款 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
4018.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
4046.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立然後增訂第九款違反本法因處罰還程度裁量基準之訂定所以會多增加 一共會有兩款會增加有兩款會修正文字 以上好請各位表示意見沒有 沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
4049.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
4073.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有麥克風因為之前在第一輪討論的時候 針對於我原本放在第5條的第8款所以我不知道是不是應該在這提出來還是要到17條那邊 為什麼因為本來我在第5條第8款有提出來針對家外安置放置在保母家的這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
4074.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
4094.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
要有一些要件那時候是說他們要另立一條然後放在第10院版的17條之後可是到第二輪的時候也沒放所以第二輪都已經討論完了那我的這一條是沒列進去所以要在這時候去討論還是等下我們在17條之後真的是按照當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
4097.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
4107.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
市大署這邊再提出來的東西 然後跟我的診病去討論 我原來提的是在第5條的第8款跟第2項以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
4110.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
4130.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
剛剛林委員應該有跟署長溝通你們的建議怎樣是要現在還是要我們確實從行政運作的角度因為針對如果用居家托育人員來做安置的時候行政管理上面通常我們目前的行政管理結構它會統一從安置的這塊做保管 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
4131.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
4151.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
條文的設計我們確實是比較建議有沒有機會未來放到兒少法的修正版本裡面去那我們本來會建議是不是有機會可以用一個附帶決議的方式就是要求把這樣的文字未來在修兒少法的時候納進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
4153.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
4176.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不過剛才跟月行委員報告過月行委員還是覺得說還是在這邊訂進來那我們也可以接受只是調次的部分我們是建議也是一樣可能要擺在居家托育那一張的最後要再增列一條調次需要可能調次到時候可能最後順下來需要再做安排文字的部分我們是可以依照先前我們會建議的先前有討論過一個文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
4181.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
4200.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個文字會分成兩項我簡單的宣讀居家托育人員經直轄市縣市主管機關依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法規定辦理照顧家外安置兒童者應先接受一定時數之教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
4202.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
4228.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好 第二項直轄市縣市主管機關於安置前應評估居家托育人員之適任性並建立於安置期間之仿試機制不是 算了 你是要放在另外一個章節嘛對不對 要放到第二章 第二章嘛 居家托育那一章我現在確定要放這邊 我們就先來討論 如果是要放後邊我們等後邊討論 對啦 我只是想確定程序 她剛剛一直在宣讀我就覺得怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
4229.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
4246.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那我們就後邊再 對對對好那我們對我們就回到第6條那各位委員有沒有其他意見剛剛是沒有意見啦好那沒有意見我們就修正通過請衛福部印出確定版之後再給這個委員做檢視好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
4249.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
4274.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席 剛剛講確定版的話 第6條確定 可是剛剛署長又有念另外一個有沒有 那個也是放在後邊條子嗎就是這個黃色的這一塊 就是針對於零拖的一些要求因為我現在都很怕漏掉的好第6條就照這樣宣讀 修正通過了我們繼續審查第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
4281.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
4295.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
來 請說抱歉 第十一條本來是說新增第二項我們都沒有意見但是有一個就是說一二三四 第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
4296.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
4323.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
地方主管機關及居家托育服務中心對於居家托育人員的監督及檢查任何人不得規避妨礙或拒絕那其實我們想加一個就是說檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童因為我們擔心檢查的時候有可能會藏匿兒童藉故 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
4326.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
4355.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那你看不到11抱歉11條對沒錯對因為你們的版本是居家托育人員不得沒有沒有我們不希望這個主持拿掉因為不是特定的托育人員有可能會藏匿而投有可能同住的家人或友人 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
4356.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
4371.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以任何人都不可以藉故藏匿兒童所以居家托育人員這個主詞應該拿掉檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童這樣子的涵蓋範圍比較寬廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
4374.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
4391.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
他沒有那個保姆沒有藏匿啊是他的家人或是他的朋友藏匿的那他的朋友跟家人怎麼管所以應該是不要限縮在保姆就是居家托育人員這幾個字拿掉就可以了11條第4款 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
4409.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4423.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
就是納管任何人加進來 藏匿的都要納管針對這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4426.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4445.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們是可以如果要把我們原來是想說增列居家托育人員不得去增加這樣的這個把這個文字放進去其實是搭配罰則的條文因為原來處罰到他的構成要件就是居家居家托育人員不可以去不可以去藉口藏匿兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4446.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4474.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那如果要放大到任何人都不可以去妨礙規避的話我想我們也可以 我們可以配合就沒有問題那只是等下後面相關的調遲法則要一邊調整法則我們等下到相關調遲的時候我們配合再來做整個文字的時候要記住喔 就是你39年對不起喔 對不起我請官員不要在這邊粗粗碌碌好不好不好意思啦 因為外面在辦活動委員在跟行政單位在大家討論事情我不曉得官員為什麼要進行粗粗 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4475.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4502.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
你如果說委內因為要到院會進出會有道理那我們官員為什麼要叫進進出出因為外面有在辦活動如果沒有我不會講對啦 因為聲音已經有點干擾了而且已經太密集了好 那就是說我們希望每個人都不能夠藉故藏匿兒童不是限縮在保母那後面的法則要一併調整沒有錯好 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4505.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4524.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個部分我們會配合整理預計會擺在66條的後面他需要單獨整列好那但是11條這邊文字現在把居家托育人員刪除我們同意我們可以配合但是11條沒有在保留條裡面所以是不是要再請 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4526.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4547.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
因為要提出一個修正動應該是不用因為現在是黨團協商了嘛那黨團協商是本來每一條都可以討論的也都可以修正所以我才說是不是要再提一個修正動是這樣不用直接就可以改了因為是黨團協商總部法律都可以所以十一條要再練一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4552.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4575.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
不用了應該現在就可以改了好那我把第11條的第4項重新宣讀如下直轄市縣市主管機關及居家托育服務中心對於居家托育人員之監督及檢查任何人不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4579.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4586.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好 11條我們就這樣修正通過了 一樣請衛部印出確定版 再給委員做檢視那我們一樣處理第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4598.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4625.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
另外跟主席報告這個11條是先前有通過不過後來在後面通過罰則第63條的時候有通過一個文字上面有增加有通過一個罰則但是我們在11條這邊可能文字需要配合做一個處理需要增加第二項的文字才會比較周延我們先讀一下我們預計增列在11條第二項的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4626.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4652.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
居家托育人員提供居家托育服務期間有暫停收托服務之需要應向主管機關申請暫停收托服務因為後面在罰則有一個暫停收托服務的罰則那條已經通過了那這個跟委員討論過說這個這樣的行為是需要處罰所以前端需要補一個補一項的文字各位有沒有意見那就請刑事機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4653.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4682.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
還是把這個修正後的版本再提出來給委員做確定做做檢視好繼續處理第16條來請說明第16條的部分就是有關是有關這個在居家托育人員在收托的時候要完成相關的投保的保險以及在發生保險事故的時候要辦理理賠那這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4685.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4711.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那我們有一個建議這個當時在討論的時候對於理賠的部分居家托育服務中心的角色我們建議16條的文字整體修正如下第16條居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前完成投保專業責任保險前項保險期間發生保險事故時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理理賠事宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4715.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4733.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那先前處分委員這邊是對於說這個因為有一些居托人員在投保的時候不一定是透過居托中心去投保那所以第二項如果說要協助辦理理賠用因會不會對於居托中心責任比較重那我們是覺得建議是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4735.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4745.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
因為其實這一項對於拘托中心是沒有罰則只是希望拘托中心盡量來做一個幫忙的動作那是不是可以維持一個因大概是這樣好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4747.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4771.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好我補充一下因為現在94%的狀態就是中心讓保姆並列要保人那由中心協助保姆投保應主動協助這樣課則是合理的因為保姆跟中心都是要保人嘛但我們講是沒有還有6%是沒有透過中心投保的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4772.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4801.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那他要如何協助理賠那或者是說應主動協助辦理理賠事情那要到什麼程度 要協助什麼程度就是協助辦理理賠事宜的程度要到哪裡他沒有透過中心 其實只有保姆自行去投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4803.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4821.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那個跟委員報告如果是這樣的話我們建議是不是我們在說明欄的部分我們把這個居托中心的角色做一個比較明確的釐清我們也許可以這樣子去寫就是專業責任保險是透過居家托育服務中心來投保的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4823.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4851.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那居家托育服務中心就需當然應該要去協助做相關的理賠那如果是由居家托育人員就是保姆自行投保的話那居家托育服務中心接獲這個通報收托兒童有發生保險事故那就可以跟居家托育人員去聯繫了解他的保險理賠辦理的處理的情形那這樣的話就把他的角色做一個比較明確的敘述好 OK那你在立法說明欄講清楚就是有區分嘛 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4853.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4865.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好 可以喔 一樣就修正通過了也請衛務部印出確定版本給各位來做檢視繼續來處理第林署務委員的第22條林署務委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4883.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4886.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你們是隨家顧,二則意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4891.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4917.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
在大本是在第61啊就在院版16條下面那這個部分的話我們對於這個署分委員的這個條文的文字那基本上方向我們接受那只是在處理的部分我們大概文字稍微做一點點整理那我宣讀如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4918.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4933.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
直轄市縣市主管機關應該應訂定居家托育服務緊急傷病或事故傷害之救護原則第二項 兒童發生緊急傷病或事故傷害之處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4937.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4961.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
居家托育人員應依前項原則執行施救步驟護送就醫地點呼叫緊急救護專線支援之事項並與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人未到達前採取必要之處置第三項居家托育服務中心應輔導居家托育人員落實第一項原則以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4965.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4978.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
可以 妹妹第16條應該印那個立法說明欄好吧 可以啦 立法說明欄它沒有印好 但是這一條你沒有放在哪邊因為它是 這是另外的一個單獨22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4983.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4995.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 調適就授權給委員去做調整了原則上就照現在這個排下來我們就擺在16個時期之間好啦 OK那就修正通過也請衛福部印出這個確定的版給委員做檢視那繼續討論處理第30條中間這個在討論30條之前剛才有在討論第3條 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
5009.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
5033.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
对不起第5条和第对那个刚刚你们讲的已经宣读过是不是还需要再宣读做一个确认因为它会摆在目前会预计会摆在第10会摆在第17条18条之前18条之前刚才有宣读那就直接处理了好不好刚刚有宣读看要不要再宣读一次然后连住了 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
5041.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
5058.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
因為當初你擬的我覺得事實上是不是很清楚我覺得畢竟過去凱恩會發生基本上就是我都認為你有做你認為我有做所以我這次為什麼覺得應該定在這邊既然好不容易要去做我們的託法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
5058.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
5074.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以我當初在第五條的就是分兩項來寫那當然也是分兩項那我的寫法是依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第56條第一項各款情形得運用適當的居家 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
5075.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
5096.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
托育人員照顧家外安置兒童並建立相關評估標準要評估標準跟照顧期間教育訓練訪視等機制然後第二項講的是前項的評估標準照顧期間教育訓練訪視跟其他應遵循四項辦法由中央主管機關定制所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
5097.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
5111.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
堅持應該是兩項你們這寫了好像都講說要接受一定時數的教育訓練然後呢要安置適當的防治機制可是我們希望要有授權是後邊還要定一個比較細緻的那個一些準則在 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
5114.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
5134.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以跟你們寫法是完全事實上有很大的落差可是你們後來提的附帶決議給我還寫得比當初你們提出來的條文裡面還有講到一些標準在反正你們在這邊的時候反而只是講說要受一些教育訓練然後要有些訪視機制而已反而對於我覺得不夠完整性 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
5137.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
5162.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
是不是可以看一下我原來提出來的第五條的第一項的第八款跟第三項這個可以回到兒少全法處理嗎一併處理版本來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
5163.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
5187.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
跟委員報告我們現在建議的條文文字大體上和委員這邊提到原來第一項的部分基本上是大體上會比較相當那這邊唯一的差別是我們大概是沒有把兒少法的條次列出來那我們最主要的顧慮是因為以我們現在在整理中的兒少法的草案的版本這個未來條式一定會變 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
5189.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
5209.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個大家先跟委員報告一下我們是建議如果要用的話是不是調次可以不用列進來就是直接依照兒童法的規定就可以了那第二項這個委員所提到的評估標準方式這個是不是要去定辦法的部分那我們是會建議是說這個部分是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
5210.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
5237.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
因為現在是已經在都有要已經是用在凱凱案發生之後我們現在是已經用要點那對於這個包括委員所關心的不管是遴選照顧期間的訪視或者是期前對保姆的評估這些都已經有相關我們定的已經開始在做那這個部分的話我們會建議是說是不是這個部分先可以不用先 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
5239.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
5260.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
如果是對於細節的部分的話是不是有一個空間我們還是用如果可以的話我們把搭配這個院板這邊行政院這邊建議的這個修正文字然後搭配一個附帶決議那把這個是將來在相關的規定要把細節的部分去把它訂出來是不是有這樣的一個空間以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
5261.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
5280.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
署長你這樣講那我就要來回應111年你們自己就有訂直轄縣市運用拘托人員家外安置的一個原則有人遵循了嗎否則不會112年發生凱凱案有人遵循了嗎110年你沒有訂啊也就是說你要運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
5281.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
5308.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我們的保姆來作為你的安置的一個處所的時候裡面講得非常清楚明白的是你要找仿式輔導良好的那今天那兩位保姆是仿式輔導良好的從來都沒有收託過小孩的就直接安置了那為什麼可以讓他這樣做然後現在在司法還沒出來的時候我們就看到各方都說你有責任你有責任誰有責任然後一個說 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
5309.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
5326.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
安置機構有責任安置的縣市有責任一個是講說你收住養有責任一個講說居托中心有責任那到底誰責任反正孩子死了那誰要負責如果沒有人負責的話那孩子是冤死所以我為什麼覺得要做這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
5326.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
5343.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為在上凱凱案之前我就發現說事實上這樣子的安置本來就有問題因為過去不是沒有發生過直轄縣市的確不是收養童安置的時候他們自己安置景安跟一般安置的時候就有好幾起的這樣的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
5344.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
5361.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
發生死亡案也有發生過啊可是有沒有去處理呢所以我說如果只是原則要點我覺得基本上沒有什麼樣的強制力然後另外一個我覺得今天機構也很容易說我是做收出養的那你的那個居托中心有管好保姆嗎那我就放在保姆家 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
5363.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5389.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那居頭中心覺得你事實上是專業機構你在做收出一樣你應該自己也會去管理你的保姆你要安置在這邊你會管理保姆吧結果通通兩邊都沒有管我按照我的原則我一年四例房就好另外一個是覺得說那我安置在應該是合格保姆都你審核過的合格保姆如果兩方這樣解釋最後犧牲的是孩子的性命所以我為什麼覺得今天到底放進去對 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5391.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5399.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
你們大概影響的是什麼我不知道就是說我知道你們那時候也到我們辦公室溝通要附帶決議我說我沒有辦法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5400.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5428.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那我覺得兩邊如果都放又有什麼關係呢就是說如果這邊訂如果看兒托法的人知道他在管理這個工作的人他知道他要這樣做如果在我們的兒權法訂的時候如果在處理安置的人他也要知道這個原理原則搞不好在做兒托的時候他不見得去看兒權法那兒權法的時候他在做的時候他有沒有看兒托法不確定所以最後就是兩邊都各自做各自的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5429.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5442.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
最後真的是這樣是犧牲掉生命所以我會希望這邊還是要放以上如果是要放在這裡的話我們是不是要彰顯說其實保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5445.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5470.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
这些保姆他作为家外安置这样的一个机制要被凸显出来可是这个里面可能会有一个评估上评估整个家庭是不是认适不适合还有房市因为房市机制跟评估机制这种东西评估标准房市其实是不是我们应该要放上去要主张说 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5471.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5499.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
要依儿少权法的规定来办理否则的话你在这里这样写写完以后那到底房市还有这个评估的机制标准那要怎么依循还要另外去定一个规定吗所以要放在这里如果要放进去的话我想应该要比照儿少权法的评估机制去做这个东西要配套进来啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5504.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5515.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
因為兒童權法沒有什麼評估機制啊否則我們現在問題會發生就是說居家托育人員的適任性那 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5516.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5540.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你要評估他的整個家庭因為二次安置跟保母所以我才會說要再而且是特殊處遇的兒的孩子了他不是一般孩子所以我才會說還是要授權中央主管機關定辦法可是要在這邊去講清楚要講到評估標準照顧期間教育訓練方式跟其他應遵循事項要定這樣的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5544.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5572.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為我們這個家外安置基本上我們是支持性的我們是支援性的我們不是主責的我們是去支持支援而已對 可是今天新北就有所謂的護苗計畫大量的 只要事實上是景安一般安置都安置在保母家 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5573.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5601.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
只要六歲以下的都這樣因為基本上安置機構只有約納家園有收比較小的小孩整個新北就只有約納家園其他的沒有人收這麼幼兒要安置的所以幾乎都在保母家所以大部分安置機構都是在安置的是大孩子尤其是少年居多六歲以下幾乎沒有安置在可是六歲以下要安置安在哪裡像新北市就護苗計畫其他縣市我上次就跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5602.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5609.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我想之前社交署我也講過幾乎很多縣市在一般安置跟景安只要六歲以下幾乎以 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5610.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5635.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
以那個保母家為多然後再來這次會發生的慨案就是事實上他事實上收出養在等待出養期間的這個過渡期六歲以下因為六歲以下也是比較容易收出養所以也幾乎大半的比例很高的比例兩個機構嘛因為兒婦聯盟跟立新他們自己不是不是不是機構因為過去有八個收出養機構只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5637.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5663.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
六個事實上他事實上是安置機構來做收支要其他兩個都那就只能事實上安置在保母家那既然保母家幾乎都是大家打的算盤都是想說六歲以下真的保母家比較適合可是那要不要特殊他24小時一年365天沒有第三方的監管是有風險的可是現在也沒辦法因為安置機構幾乎都沒有在做六歲以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5665.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5686.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好那现在有问题就是说基本上这一个支持性的资源那那几乎就是等于寄养家庭的概念了那寄养家庭大家在评估的时候比较严谨他会评估整个家庭但我们现在放在保姆家他 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5687.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5707.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
全家人沒有一併放進來被評估啊所以我們是不是說應該要如果是這種狀況的話應該要比照寄養家庭一樣去評估和仿視啦你懂我的意思嗎要表決了要表決我們去表一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5710.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5734.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
要表決委員離場之前我們先報告簡單報告一下好 我們要去表決一下我們原則上接受我們在這段時間我們趕快把條文先擬出來等一下委員回來我們可以給委員來做一個討論先休息一下 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
7596.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
7607.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
多頂禮加一粒 你就加補兩粒不可以吃一粒 怕弄到腦袋上去氣氣酷酷 氣氣酷酷說話比較文雅好 我們繼續協商 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
7613.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
7632.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
主席非常感谢岳勤文对于我们第五条的一个建议我先这么说因为一个是我们现在目前一个是托育的逻辑那我知道岳勤文非常关心的是安置的问题但是为了要解决安置然后现在 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
7634.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
7656.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
來放到這邊是不是有我說兩個邏輯可能還是不太一樣啦那我跟委員報告現在就是說能不能就是我們現在目前我們現在兒托法這個部分處理完之後我跟委員保證現在接下來我們接下來就是兒照選法那我們現在是不是可以還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
7657.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
7664.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你這個部分我一定保證我在未來耳哨全法去處理因為我們這個會期處理完之後接下來我要啟動的就是耳哨全法所以你這個我一定會把它放進來因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
7676.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
7695.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
因為真的是而且我跟委員報告以前我在台中我做的小學校長你知道有時候在地方政府這邊托育的部分跟安置的部分有時候他們有時候是分有時候是在一個同一個課有時候是有在不同嘛那你現在就是說為了要解決安置的問題那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
7698.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
7718.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
现在又把它放到托育这边来会不会我认为整个可能在处理上它会不会还是会有一些实际上的一些问题肯请委员是不是咱想想看我就很好奇如果这样那为什么以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
7720.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
7744.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這麼多年來安置都安置在保母家這個不是單一我說過去你們也坐任各地方政府這樣做啊一直以來那你們安置到底做了什麼事情沒有啊我先講比較現實的一個問題就是說你看如果當時安置真的有做好明明知道今天全台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
7745.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
7774.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
手指頭都可以數得出來六歲以下的安置沒有在安置機構因為安置機構你們自己也知道安置機構幾乎少到可憐的在安置別家六歲以下小孩那你們都一直知道這常態怎麼會是今天要來談這個東西的時候你跟我講說那我們可是這你安置在保母家已經是常態了那過去的確兒少權法沒有兒托法的時候兒少權法只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
7775.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
7802.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
26條跟26條之一在規範保姆要授權執法那保姆的強度不強那保姆現在一直在保姆還是要納管的狀態裡邊我們現在把它弄成兒托法的時候那難道你今天大量用它這邊不要有任何規範嗎當然需要 保護主席那個也跟委員委員你了解我們的CRC的精神其實基本上還是兒童最佳利益所以我們現在如果萬一發生安置的話我們的順序一定都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
7803.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
7829.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
这一个受暴的这一个小朋友他的这一个亲属嘛然后接下来才是技嘉然后再团家然后最后真的没办法交到机构那我们现在恐怕也会担心就是说你现在目前把这边这样设下去之后老实说会有一个反而会有一个吸引效果吸引你现在我们现在是希望能够尽量还是以还是以这一个到亲属这边结果他现在就送到 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
7830.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
7833.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
會送到安置的那個家庭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
7834.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
7864.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
會不會會不會有這個問題所以次長因為我們孩子越來越少安置同事越來越成長的那個狀態所以你自己你們自己真的有清楚的去確定各地方政府怎麼對景安跟一般安置安置尤其是六歲以下所以上次也要你們調查始終我也是沒有拿到數據說到底你們六歲以下小的安置的狀態個性是到底安置在保母家的狀態又是什麼我不是只有要覺得要處理事實上是收出養 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
7865.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
7879.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
大部分事實上是地方政府幾乎很多六歲以下小孩都安置在我們的保母家 早期還有放在幼兒園幼兒園也不是一個很好的長時間生活的方式在那邊居住啊 因為以前桃園就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
7881.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
7901.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
六歲以下小孩都安置在幼兒園那你現在就是說那我想問說一直對放這邊有困難可是現在今天兒少全法我覺得一直以來兒少全法一直都沒有談這個問題我說今天安置在保母家不是此時此刻也不是凱萊案發生的時候才有這種狀況歷年來就已經是這樣子從大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
7903.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
7912.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我不知道有沒有記錯90年民國90年來以來一直以來就是讓地方政府就一直是在放孩子事實上在保母家 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
7912.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
7933.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那如果這樣的話那這邊沒有強度那你那邊有一些強度那如果可以做早就可以做我跟你講也不用等到兒少如果真的認真覺得這問題兒少全罰也不用等兒少全罰大步伐要修如果這麼在意的話應該早就先修了幾條先進來不是嗎那你現在要兒少全罰我也不知道等到什麼時候那我只是想問 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
7934.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
7954.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個中間現在還是有空窗期因為你那邊也沒修這邊又沒有的時候你一直在講辦法所以我說111年你們自己本來111年7月14號你們就訂出來一個我剛剛講的直轄縣市運用居托人員來家外安置的那個原則有沒有 有啊可是112年怎麼還是發生呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
7956.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
7982.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以我才会觉得说那如果不要你要能说服我不是一直跟我讲说这会不会跌床加屋那边有那个未来要定我听你们这样对话以后有几个想法我稍微厘清一下就是说保姆成为安置家庭应该是最后不得不他基本上应该是寄养家庭那一种去处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
7982.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
8010.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那一般而言保姆作为资源性支持性的去收这些安置的儿童他是非常耗费心力的一整天的24小时的所以他整个心力都在这个孩子身上其实是几乎应该很困难可以再收托一般的托儿那在这种状况里面事实上我们也应该理解这个支持性的保姆他应该是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
8011.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
8032.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
像他的安置家庭一樣的要被評估他整個家庭都要被評估而不是說像我們居托中心一般去訪視那保姆這種收托這種安置的話他要類似機養家庭就不要用保姆管理的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
8032.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
8053.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以也不要再收一般的托兒甚至在照顧的職能上跟一般收托一般的托兒是不一樣照顧的職能其實是跟一般保母差很多所以我們是希望說應該寄養兒童的保母跟一般保母要分流來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
8055.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
8079.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是呢我们月勤一直在讲的问题就是说你们都毫无章法大家都直接交给保姆也不是寄养家庭寄养家庭不够大家就交给保姆但保姆目前都没有任何的配套也没有任何的监督的机制可是地方政府就直接丢给他们 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
8080.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
8107.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那所以这是一个问题没有解决没有被解决他才要一直不断说纳管进来可是纳管进来他的整个纳管的机制评估访视监督的其实强度要比照寄养家庭了所以是应该是在寄养家庭的那一个法律的规范里面把爸母纳进去 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
8108.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
8131.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
可是因为你们又代务职责一直没有放进去所以变成两边他怕漏接所以在这里其实我不管就是说你要放到未来的寄养家庭儿少权法或是放在这里但我们都希望说收托安置儿童的保姆他对保护儿童 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
8132.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
8149.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
保護寄養兒童來講從這個角度來看的話他應該是要重演去好好的評估那管理的機制也不能用居托中心這一套仿事案管理都不行要另外立是應該是要這樣去思考請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
8153.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
8175.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我想这一条就是刚刚已经讨论蛮多的我的看法比较是就是说这些如果是已经是政府机构你要另外再找保姆来安置儿童的你本来就应该要另外一套更严格的标准就像你的寄养一样你有一套标准你今天要把它放在保姆家你就不可能是跟一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
8176.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
8205.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
家長放在保母家他每天還會接送回來的孩子一樣那應該是過去你們在這一塊的這個做法上面就是不夠嚴謹而且讓各縣市就是大家各自有一套不一樣的做法你們也沒有一個很嚴格的監督跟管理那我們如果按照整個法令的他的那個邏輯性來看的話今天我們這邊談的是托育專法所以他比較是 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
8207.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
8231.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
針對一般性的兒童這邊來做管理的就是你所有的理念架構其實都是這樣子的那至於會是經由政府或者是機構再安置到保母家的他應該是另外一個你們應該好好去研議那月秦委員剛剛他講那麼多就是他講出來是你們現在做不好的地方他是希望這邊放的就是這個法可能會比較快過所以希望優先放在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
8232.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
8250.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
他對你們是沒有信心的就是你們現在之前也不管然後如果是未來的這個兒權法可能又曠日廢時那你們必須回應讓委員知道說那你們這段期間如果你是要是未來在兒權法的話那你這段期間做了什麼強化不能在這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
8251.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
8270.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這邊又過了沒有力然後你的兒權法又遙遙無期然後這樣的一個空窗期那到底你作為主管機關你們中央主管機關你們會做什麼來保證這段期間你們對於這類型的孩子他的這個所有的監督管理是到位的然後再去接軌未來的兒權法的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
8273.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
8301.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
修法我覺得你們這個講清楚嗎那當然你剛講的有你的道理在就是說我們是在修額頭轉法所以放在這邊可能有比較不適切的地方我想剛剛淑芬也有提出同樣的一個看法我的看法其實也是但是你們必須你們的做法月請委員提的是單行就是說你這樣的一個空窗請這邊又不利你另外一個法又那麼慢那你這段時間你到底可以做什麼來保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
8304.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
8331.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
可以這樣好不好 因為已經11點19因為我們後面還有很多 要不要先保留一下我講最後一句現在你們訂了直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則你目前這個原則也訂得太鬆了你們其實光是這個原則回去也應該要修一下你們應該要針對整個家庭去做評估而不是只有保姆做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
8332.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
8351.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那也跟阿憲說是不是收留安置保護寄養兒童的這個個案是不是跟一般托兒要在一起那沒有的話你要不要給人家更多錢好了 想一下 我們這條先不留 好不好到最後再來討論 繼續審查第30條 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
8357.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
8379.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
來 請進機關說明第30條就是有關在托育機構的影像監視設備的管理目前各個委員的版本大概對於要做監視而且基本上要上傳到地方主管機關的一個網際網路的儲存系統的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
8379.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
8399.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
大體上各委員的版本都相近在之前在委員會審查的時候最後針對行政院版的第三項這個中央主管機關對於直轄市縣市去建置這個系統的時候的補助的方式這邊的話我們是有考慮到說由於最近有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
8403.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
8421.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個政府財政的部分那我們是建議是不是有可能在對於這個因補助的部分有沒有機會調調整為得補助那這邊我們有一個建議另外那針對這本條第四項的部分那我們也參考了各委員的版本對於這個將來在對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
8425.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
8452.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
托育機構所監視下來的影像怎麼樣去抽查的部分在授權事項上面能夠去把它增補進去能夠有一個更明確的管理我們大概在這邊做了一個簡單做了一個相關的處理 以上我們建議的條文的文字就在今天有提供給委員的資料裡面請各位委員參閱 以上好 先請陳昭志委再請王育民委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
8453.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
8478.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
謝謝主席那衛福部既然有這個就是監管的一個美意但是這個針對第30條我想除了剛剛就是說上一次我們討論到經費編列的問題之外那外界目前有一些在實務面的一些疑慮我是請我想請這個衛福部能夠就這些疑慮就是把它稍微澄清跟說明我的重點在這裡大概有三件事情麻煩就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
8480.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
8493.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
次長或署長等一下再做一個清楚的說明讓大家把這些疑慮能夠放下來第一個就是外界質疑去年12月底因為南韓不是發生了駭客嗎入侵了12萬台的攝影機他擷取了私密的影像剪輯成數百部的性剝削的影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
8500.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
8525.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
販售到海外的非法平台這個優利是存在所以對於資安跟影像外洩的風險請問情政機關會如何在制度跟技術這個面就確保我們國內不要發生類似的這個資安跟影像外洩的風險這是第一點等一下再麻煩兩位看哪一位來再做一個說明讓大家安心那第二個就是說監視露營的設置區要怎麼擺 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
8527.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
8553.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
才能夠兼顧安全管理的同時也避免拍攝到兒童私密畫面例如有一些家長也反映說日常照護室譬如換尿布的地方那如何去架設錄影機就目前第一線工作人員的反應就是說部分地方政府好像對機構的要求有引發一些疑慮就是說拍攝過於接近私密部位的疑慮就有些地方政府他有這些疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
8553.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
8573.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那這個部分我們要不要做一個規範這是第二個部分那第三個就無論這是兒童法的監管或是之前處理私密影像犯罪證據資料庫都有一個重要的問題就是外界擔心我想我們其他委員應該也會要了解這個部分到底誰有權限去調閱或複製影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
8575.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
8591.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那這些細節管理目前條文內容大部分條文委員都覺得說同意交由主管機關來訂定那當然是OK的交由主管機關來訂定但是我們希望是不是能夠說明的稍微清楚為了確保兒少權益跟避免權限的濫用未來主席上有哪些人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
8592.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
8621.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
或單位可以調閱複製或使用影像那會不會做分級的授權記錄跟集合的機制才能夠防範公務人員不當的調閱因為我為什麼要講這件事呢因為不管是最近發生像高雄市衛生局何前執密他藉用植物之騙輕易取得並且以此作為威脅兒少的工具他發生了這件事他發生了或是之前健保署主密竊取國人的健保資料尤其是情資人員資料賣到對岸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
8622.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
8642.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那這個總統行政管理上發生問題我想讓外界的擔憂就是說他找不到一個切確答案所以我是不是先麻煩就是說我是希望說這個說明就讓這個不要讓監管的美意變成一些民憂或民怨基本上就是說尊重你們的要來管理但這三件事情是不是麻煩衛福部來說清楚謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
8648.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
8668.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
謝謝謝謝趙執委員的的垂詢那針對這個趙執委員所問到的部分我想大概針對大概簡單的來說一個說明第一個資安跟資安的部分那當然這樣一個資安將來是儲存到是一個只要是縣市去指定的一個網際網路儲存空間那其實我們我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
8670.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
8699.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
社交組這邊其實先前在為了要準備這樣的事項的時候我們對於國內相關的資安技術跟有這樣去一個比較妥善去能夠去保管甚至在傳輸的過程裡面能夠適度的加密然後儲存之後進去能夠順著網路能夠進去的防火牆跟資安的管理的部分相關有能力的技術以及可能潛在的一些國內相關可能比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
8700.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
8718.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
安全性比較好的機房等等我們大概都做了一些先做了一些這個 survey那我們去了解一下相關的資訊的能力的管理的部分那這些訊息大概在整理之後我們都會提供給縣市政府那供縣市政府在未來去選擇相關在不管在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
8719.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
8740.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
廠商的領選然後在資安設計的時候怎麼樣去做相關的影像加密傳輸過程裡面的加密的部分那這邊我們都會提供給縣市政府來做一個完整的參考那第二個是在影像設置的鏡頭設置的部分那其實這個是現行的條文已經是要求所有的托育機構它自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
8741.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
8762.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
已经要做监视的动作只是要没有要上传现行的规定就自己要保存那我们在现行规定里面就已经规定了它这个要装设的区域包括了在户外像出入口对外的窗户走道那室内的公共区域那基本上它的画面要采取什么样的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
8763.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
8785.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
的一個畫面例如說彩色還是是不是要彩色然後這個攝影的角度要全面那當然大家所關心到的這個因為監視的過程可能對於這個受託小朋友的這個這個敏感的部位那我們是可以將來在後面的在這個規定將來在後續處理的時候我們可以做一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
8788.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
8815.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
做一個比較精準的規範那不要太去針對太特定的因為這樣的一個錄像的目的其實就是一個比較全面性活動的資料的一個保存那不要過度的針對特定人特定角度或者是特定的部位去做這樣的一個攝錄影的動作這個我們可以來做一定的處理那最後一個是針對未來的調閱跟全線的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
8816.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
8842.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那這個我們會分成大概在兩個部分一個是第一個對於儲存已經儲存到網際網路由縣市管理的部分那它一定要一定會有一個明確的市由那誰才有權限那在甚至在儲存的過程在調閱的過程中是要透過什麼樣的程序有沒有什麼樣的人能夠看等等那這個部分的話我們現在都 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
8843.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
8869.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
在先前大概都有提到我們會做一個比較嚴格的管理那這樣的儲存現在儲存在這個網際網路的部分基本上我們現在規定的就是儲存而不是說上去了以後隨便都可以去監看所以這個我們也希望跟外界做一個說明就是並不是有人在雲端隨時去看影像其實我們的設計就不是這個樣子那它就是一個影像檔案 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
8870.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
8899.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
存到雲端之後那有一定的室友才可以去調閱那對於調閱的事項調閱的有能夠申請的人那申請的流程這邊我們未來都會在這個授權的辦法裡面跟縣市跟相關的團體去經過謹慎的討論之後來做相關的律定簡單做以上說明謝謝主席請允許我跟他稍微再互動一下因為他說明的東西那個那你剛剛第一個有關治安的影響外洩風險我覺得你們是可以先 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
8901.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
8920.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
測試一下 然後找高手想辦法駭入 當然這個測試的內容是ok因為你這個部分 因為畢竟別的國家發生了它畢竟發生了 你雖然說你們盡力做盡力做盡力做但是我希望是說用不同的方式去檢驗你說的東西 因為這個還是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
8922.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
8940.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
幾個大疑慮裡面當中一定會有這個疑慮那第二個你剛剛已經明確的規範說你會給地方政府有一個明確的規範那會去稽查或稽核嗎就是說你規範了他是不是這樣設置那那個位置等等是否恰當你們會有人再去做確認跟稽核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
8942.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
8964.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
就是這個部分因為規範是規範嘛規範跟實務現在我講的都是實務面嘛就是說既然貴婦往這個方向做那我們實務面上你是不是會這個規範能不能落實會不會去做確認跟這個檢查那第三個我再確認一下你說現在只有儲存的功能嗎現在沒有調閱的機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
8966.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
8988.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
就是說有調閱機制但是你要再去訂但是因為像高雄市衛生局植蜜也夠大我就不知道說你這個全縣都很大健保署也是主蜜啊也是主蜜啊這個剛剛我提的一個是那個威脅兒少的這個案子一個是勤之人的健康使整個送到對岸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
8989.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
9010.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他的位置很高啊所以這個東西到底在什麼情況下要啟動我想還是讓國人瞭解 當然是由你們去制定但是國人的疑慮是有他的原因的謝謝 謝謝主席對 王育文先說 你再一步回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
9012.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
9027.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我剛有舉手我先講完你再一邊回應那個關於第30條這個是新立的法令而且看起來中央主管機關的要求其實也蠻嚴格的那我是覺得什麼事情都是權責相符 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
9028.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
9045.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這一條如果要執行下去剛剛陳昭政委員提到有些資安的問題其實是要非常到位的那資安要到位事實上這涉及到技術也涉及到設備也涉及到後續相關人員的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
9045.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
9061.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那這一些通通都是需要經費的我過去在台中市政府擔任副市長的時候事實上也發現不同縣市之間本來在對與做這一些資訊設備的儲存跟應用會跟錢有很大的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
9062.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
9090.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
如果今天有一個縣市他的財政比較困難坦白講他設備也會比較低階他也不會有什麼專人來做這件事情所以這件事情我的意見就是一定是要一條邊你所有的規格你資訊設備的規格然後你的人員然後你的治安的設備條件這個是一條邊的沒有縣市差異化沒有說你這個縣市有錢多做一點這個縣市沒有錢就會少做一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
9091.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
9119.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以我就要講到根本的原來你們的法條最原始的版本就是為什麼是說中央主管機關應補助地方因為由你們統一就是我怎麼要求地方就應該怎麼做因為我所有的規格都是我開的我就是開這些你就要照辦那你這樣才能達到品質品質大家是一樣的安全也是一樣的我要講的還有安全那你現在任意性的把它修改成德 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
9120.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
9129.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我跟你說會亂的套就會變成是各縣市你有些要求沒錢的我跟你講做不到就做不到了就像這次營養午餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
9130.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
9156.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
各縣市有能力的就是跟進那很抱歉像嘉義縣這麼窮的地方就是沒有跟不了那以後你這個得以下去之後你如果是這種不是一個一筆預算由中央到地方而且是一致性的補助的話你會變成什麼有能力的像台北市財政比較好的他沒有問題我就講像嘉義縣那麼窮的他就會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
9158.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
9177.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那你補他還是不補他那你將來的原則是什麼就是說很窮的我就補給你嘛那其他又來跟你argue說那我們是中等的我就變成是不三不四像我們現在很多就是一下子偏鄉一下子什麼然後有一些就是中間他說我的財力沒那麼差也沒那麼好你要不要給 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
9178.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
9201.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我覺得那是徒增困擾才化法那是另外一回事那個現在大家都還在談但這邊法的精神我們該怎麼去要求地方政府要他們到位那就全責相符你絕對可以去要求但是你要給相同的資源所以30條我的意見還是應該回到最原始的原來行政院跟各位提出來的版本就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
9202.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
9227.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
中央主管機關應補助直轄市因為你這樣一個因你也扛起了預算的責任所以你在監督各縣市你有底氣而且你也敢強力要求因為我開的規格就是這樣我資源都給你你還不做那你當然可以好好去查不然你有什麼你就是就是說我中央都是來監督你但是你不給資源然後什麼不提供然後什麼都一直要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
9228.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
9250.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我覺得中央跟地方本來就是一個合作啦我想次長也擔任過地方的局長你也知道中央地方本來就是一個合作那中央做得到的我覺得就應該去到位更何況這一條現在很多業者大反彈還在那邊開記者會對不對那你如果要幫助地方政府好辦事你資源要到位啊他還要去幫你去溝通那些業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
9252.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
9274.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
就是要他們來配合所以不用在這上面就是把原來的因改成德啦我覺得這樣兒托專法大家都想要讓我們托育的品質提升那這個條文也是去確保孩子的安全那我覺得就是讓事情順利會比較好啦那如果主管機關不同意的話我就會喊保留30條保留好 謝謝王正旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
9276.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
9301.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們晚了可能要到辯論了 請說那今天我跟大家報告一下就是說當然30條經過強化以後似乎有改善不過我們還是會擔心有一些還是不足的地方所以我們才在第四跟第五項追加了相關的一些期待能夠讓大家共同討論以後能夠把它納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
9302.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
9322.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那我之所以會這樣的話因為我們知道所有的這些影像的保存對這一群兒童來講特別的重要因為他們根本平常是不會講話的也沒有辦法表達自己那其實我們也知道在之前的相關的辦法裡面就已經規定30天的保存 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
9323.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
9344.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
可是呢在112年社家署就有發布了一份報告就是為了外界懷疑托嬰中心監視的部分的資安外洩的問題他那個時候有統計在114年到112年裡面不當對待114件還有在幾乎相近的時間有一些額略的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
9345.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
9361.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那在114件裡面監視設備因人為操作不當或損毀的10件那在例行積查裡面發現受到影響需要改善的有31件這代表說在執行過程裡面即使我們訂了要求辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
9362.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
9382.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
即使現在入法了很有可能還是會有一些無法執行到位的地方所以我們會在第四項跟第五項希望能夠定期的追蹤相關的這些設備儲存的問題主要還是儲存他應該要知道他有沒有定期的把這些內容放到這個雲端裡面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
9383.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
9412.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
另外就是希望能夠有更完整的讓這個兒童的法定代理人能夠去調閱相關這些攝影錄音的資料因為像我剛剛所提到的因為這是後來唯一能夠讓大家確認這個誰是在這個事件裡面造成的影響這個所以我們才特別在第四項第五項裡面把這個問題凸顯出來希望能夠入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
9413.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
9433.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
即使原本的這些內容已經有部分的cover可是還是相對是不足的所以才希望說經過大家在確認在討論能不能夠也把這個第四跟第五項我們增添的部分能夠納為入法的一個內容的機會以上的報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
9437.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
9460.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
要不要請 請先再做統一回應好的 針對這個剛才趙執委員然後王正訓委員剛才提到這個在食物面操作的部分那第一個當然在資安的部分我們這個在資安的要求上面一定會從嚴來做相關的處理那剛才也許是我這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
9461.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
9482.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
口頭上面講得不夠精準我們基本上是表達的是說個別的托育機構的影像上傳之後他是把這個影像的檔案上傳到這個網際網路指定的處所去儲存但是在這個過程中間並不會發生說有人直接在上面去直接監視的這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
9484.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
9512.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那當然這樣儲存了以後就是目的就是為了在這個必要的時候能夠去做一個有一個證據的保全所以當然在調閱的時候一定會要有一個明確的事由有一個完整的流程那這個部分的話具體的細節那都會在透過最後一項的授權的事項裡面未來在授權的辦法裡面我們會做一個清楚的律定這個部分我們一定會來操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
9513.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
9534.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那王委員剛才所提到的這個在抽查的部分這也是我們在這也是希望能夠回應到委員剛才所提到的部分所以這個有關抽查的部分我們現在在這個授權的事項裡面那我們是寫的確實寫的相對稍微精簡一點那就是針對抽查的部分我們會去把它納進來好那這個在前端 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
9536.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
9558.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
它只要錄影的時候抽查就能夠從源頭去確定它的監視錄影的狀況然後去抽查那當然這個上傳到雲端的時候在雲端保存期間雲端的資料的狀態那當然這個也會在雲端管理的內容裡面我們會來做一定的相關的來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
9559.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
9586.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
至於王委員先前也有在我不確定是修正動議還是附帶決議裡面有提到就是有一些叫延長保存時間的部分這個部分的話我們是建議可以用我們會建議是不是在條文裡面就不特別寫例外是怎麼樣處理但是透過附帶決議這個有狀況要延長保存期間我們可以未來在授權的辦法裡面我們把這個要延長的部分我們都一併納進來這個我們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
9588.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
9610.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
完全可以配合來做所以條文裡面就是先維持原條文可是會用附帶決議來處理是是那我們很擔心就是包括這個期限因為你現在是至少保存30天嘛那你30天也許還有在程序在處理中是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
9614.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
9644.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
了解 OK 好好好 尊重那個應得怎麼辦不是應得顧台灣喔聽好你是要應還要得要得還要應不是啦 不是尊重我啦看你啦 人家大陸說你如果要得他就要飆你也真沒堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
9651.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
9652.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我們休息一下我們先走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
9921.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
9921.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
10831.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
10831.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
10872.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
10890.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
11144.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
11145.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
11266.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
11267.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
11970.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
11970.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
12324.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
12350.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我就是要在這裡問大家的意見 要不然你坐在那裡 誰誰人誰人都要處理啊誰誰人要坐在那裡好了來我們現在12點26分剛剛討論到第30條給曾詠歌委員意見看到怎樣 要審到什麼時候 都沒有意見 來我是建議我們下禮拜二下禮拜二再繼續啊禮拜二下禮拜二 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
12351.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
12370.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
院會應該沒有表決事項了沒有動員禮拜二或三都可以沒有 禮拜三、四是省省選法那禮拜二 下禮拜二這樣比較整齊不要招來招去 總來總去就一個完整的時段 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
12372.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
12385.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好 再擺 沒關係這樣現在我們今天是不是到這裡就好了30條處理好30條處理好就好了因為其他的黨好啦 那就30條30條好OK啦就說30條處理完處理到30條就好了啦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
12394.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
12419.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
OK那我可以再繼續發言嗎可以啦可以啦剛剛30條我們有看到最新的部分就是前陣子大家討論就是把那個德改成英嘛那其實我們也一直希望能夠或者是把那個檢查跟抽查不太一樣啦那個抽查的意思是要看現場有東西嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
12422.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
12442.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
檢查是說送到雲端的資料有人去注意按照需要送上來沒有所以如果能夠在抽雜之前也再加兩個字檢查那可以更完備啦這樣就不至於擔心說在處理過程裡面造成什麼樣的疏漏應該就讓整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
12444.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
12469.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
在這30條的部分可以更為完整啦 不然是不是再麻煩市長這個可以提起一下抽查改檢查是不是是不是檢查然後頓耗再抽查這樣子兩個意思不一樣來請說明尊重委員的那個提議把增加檢查頓耗抽查機制好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
12473.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
12498.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 那所以就得稿的因了喔 對不對因為剛才這個我也知道這是大家都關心的但是剛才現在那個財力等級這還是不一樣我是不是建議說因市財力等級所以你問他要怎麼改沒關係 因市財力等級因市財力等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
12505.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
12532.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
不要緊 你給他說一下 處長你先說完 後面要處理我意思是說真的還是 我說得很清楚台北市這次的財務發料是400萬養的你中央去補助這種的這我覺得我是不太能夠接受啦好所以我的意思是說是不是家就是因事財力等級補助這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
12534.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
12542.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
應試財力等級補助中央主管機關應試財力等級補助之下現施主管機關是不是這樣對啦 現在我們有財力分級啊你現在看不看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
12548.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
12575.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
沒關係啦你不用緊張啦 你不用緊張 我這樣啦不然就這樣 你們把文字修出來啦我們一樣這條就是先保留先保留啦 這樣啦好 這樣 今天要補充嗎沒有齁 不然就休息啦 來好 我們這個相關保留案尚未處理完略那則起繼續審查 現在散會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
12579.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
12592.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好,不會不會,謝謝,好啊,你這裡上課,請先跟王玉明委員交通一下,好不好,對啦,好,對啦,不要,不要,不要,不要跟他說話啦,對啦,你說的話有利啊,你說的話有利啊,對啊, |