| IVOD_ID |
17200 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17200 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-15 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-15T08:31:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-15T11:47:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:15:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6096e13f430e0f158c2bdae56b7a60aa52c0a219bd209750d2dab6b82d7602c416a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第2場）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:07 - 11:47:00 |
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好我們現在開會各位學者專家本院的委員媒體朋友以及在場的女士先生們大家早安大家好依據中華民國憲法徵修條文及立法院職權刑事法之規定總統彈劾案須經本院全體立法委員二分之一以上提議交付全院委員會審查審查後提出院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1767.94 |
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1794.695 |
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經全體立法委員三分之二以上之決議向司法院大法官提出彈劾案本會期本院委員傅坤祺等及委員黃國昌等分別依上開規定對賴清德總統提出彈劾案之提議經第十五次會議決定在全院委員會審查彈劾案前與舉行兩場全院委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1796.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1825.649 |
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本院依院會決定舉行公聽會廣納各界意見昨天我們已經舉行第一場公聽會今天非常感謝在座的學者專家以及審查小組委員參加第二場的公聽會各位所發表的寶貴意見將作為本院首次審查彈劾案之參考再次感謝各位為本次公聽會所做的準備以及發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1827.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1849.235 |
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針對今天公聽會進行的程序做以下之宣告一 發言時程每位學者專家發表意見時間為十分鐘審查小組委員每位詢問時間同為十分鐘本院委員發言完畢之後再由學者專家代表綜合答覆三十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1850.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1864.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
因此 請各位學者專家發表高見後也能聽取本院各黨團所推派的委員代表之詢問發言最後 還請各位學者專家賜教答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1865.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1887.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
二 發言順序先由學者專家發言次由審查小組委員發言最後再由學者專家綜合答覆相關的發言順序請參閱陳列於各位桌上的名單各黨團所舉建的學者專家審查小組委員如不在場或必要時 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1889.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1911.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
呃講 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1911.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1936.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好 江副院長 各位委員還有各位與會的先進那今天參與這個公聽會會非常的榮幸那因為事關重要那我先用我這個比較是這個發言稿先做一些說明然後要是時間還有的話我會再做補充我想今天這個公聽會表面上是圍繞著這個賴清德總統他彈劾案所引發的爭議而召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1938.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1959.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
但是我認為如果我們只把焦點停留在彈劾案是否成案還有特定政治人物的去留恐失去我們真的值得警惕的問題這樣的注意這場爭議的核心不只是一個彈劾案而是台灣整個憲政體制在雙少數政府下 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1962.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1986.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
真正出現的制度的失靈甚至演變成整個民主運作的結構性的問題我們必須先說明的是這個彈劾案之所以被提出它直接的原因並非單一的政策的爭議而是近期整個在行政體系長期採取高度對抗的政治操作包括不附屬 不公佈 不執行這些做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1988.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2008.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
事實上這些行為已經超越一般政治攻防的範疇而是對既有的這種憲政秩序造成實質的衝擊當立法院依法通過的法案跟預算案無法通過正常的行政程序加以落實那行政跟立法之間原本應該有的制衡機制就等於是停擺 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2010.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2022.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那這個民主制度也隨之空轉這正是現在這個少數政府在行政跟立法長期僵局下所暴露的這個結構性的困境那面對這樣子的這個困局 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2023.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2041.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
當然有人主張現行的憲政體制還是提供了一些制度性的解方,譬如像是復議、釋憲、不信任案,甚至倒閣。但是我們必須誠實地說,在目前政治結構跟實際運作的條件下,這些工具幾乎都沒有辦法發揮功用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2042.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2059.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為附議在國會有多數是在野黨掌握的情況下它這個立法結果不會改變它只會延長政治的對抗跟治理的停滯那釋憲則因為憲法法庭人數的不足跟人事提名的不當這個也包括未能獲得國會多數支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2061.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2078.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
導致整個司法審查的這個功能跟正當性均大幅的削弱那不信任案跟倒閣呢即便形式上能夠成功他也僅能更換行政院長甚至在實務上也未必能真的更換因為總統還是可以不經立法院的同意而再次任命同一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2079.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2098.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以這個結果依然是什麼就是行政院長有責無權總統有權無責的憲政失衡狀況造成這個行政跟立法的僵局是不會鬆動的事實上我們目前這個問題的真正的根源是在我們對民主制衡的一個誤解 |
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2099.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2117.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
必須重申的是行政機關包括總統跟行政院長他們所提出來的法案跟預算本應該受國會多數的節制這不是阻擾施政而是民主制度中權力制衡的核心機制同樣的這些重要的人事任命包括大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2118.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2143.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
考試院與監察委員未來的以及公平會 中選會國家通信傳播委員會等這些關鍵性的憲政或獨立機關它如果完全排除國會多數的參與未能體現權力的分享跟責任政治它實質效果也就等於不只是人事的延宕而會真正出現由行政權反覆提出國會不能接受的人選變成一種癱瘓的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2146.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2161.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
事實上在少數政府的情境下權力不僅是要受到節制更應該被分享這也是為何在比較憲政的經驗中我們常以法國的左右共治作為重要參考法國總統選舉他會採兩輪投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2164.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2187.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第一輪如果沒有人獲得過半數支持就會進入第二輪並由得票前兩高的人進行禁足最終當選者他必然是獲得過半數的選民授權不至於形成像我們現在的這種少數票總統而且總統一旦當選他也會以超然與黨派之上的國家領袖自居他會退出他也不會兼任 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2188.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2216.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
政黨的主席來凸顯他是全民總統的這個憲政角色而在國會如果真的出現分裂或多數更替的狀況下總統在任命總理時候也一定會尊重國會的多數生態實際由多數黨或者是多數聯盟的這個領袖出任革揮而形成很制度化並且可運作的這種左右共治那相較之下台灣目前的政治實踐是反其道而行 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2218.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2240.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
當制度協商被擱置取而代之的反而是政治的對抗跟民粹的動員比如之前以大規模的罷免企圖來改變國會結構如此發展不僅不能化解僵局反而使行政與立法之間的對抗持續升高甚至演變為少數政府透過行政權力結合民粹甚至是仇恨動員來主導國家的運作的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2243.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2262.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
而當這個行政體系拒絕回應多數民意,仍持續使用高度集中的權力,憲政秩序事實上已經遭到癱瘓,民族也可能退化成實質上的民選獨裁最後我們回到彈劾案本身,我必須承認在制度設計來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2264.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2291.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們成案的門檻非常高成功的機率非常有限但是這個彈劾案真正的意義是什麼它並不是在於是不是能夠成案而是在於它所引發的公眾討論跟民主的警訊它是一個提醒社會正視我們憲政運作危機的七手勢當制度失靈而又缺乏有效出口的時候社會必須被清楚地告知問題不只是政黨的對立或政治立場上的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2292.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2300.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
而是在整個 我們現在目前是以整個民主憲政體制作為犧牲甚至走向民選獨裁的這個方向作為代價來運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2302.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2325.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那民主這個從來不是只是看選舉的結果它更是權力怎麼被限制被分享甚至被負責任的使用那我們今天這場公聽會若能夠讓我們能正視這個制度層次的問題而不只停留在政治動員跟對立之中才能讓民主政治台灣的民主政治找到一條真正的出路我在這邊再補充我剛才的這個發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2330.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2355.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
其實台灣現在今天談這個彈劾案真正的碰到的大問題就是我們真的在制度上設計上的大問題我必須跟各位報告其實我在大學裡面也教授政治學其實我們常問我們的學生一個政治學101的問題很簡單就是說全世界有哪個國家實施總統制他在政治經濟社會上都是很成功的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2356.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2378.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
但是請不要再告訴我美國這個答案那學生們多數都很難想得出更好的答案坦白說啦其實事實上全世界很多國家都實施總統制而且越來越多但是這並不見得它就是一個對的制度我必須誠實的說所有的我們台灣的政黨在在野的時候都提出過其實應該往這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2381.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2402.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
內閣制來修正那我也很坦白的說可能當一旦在台灣這種制度下取得了總統大位他就變成一個不必負責任的這樣子的一個超級大的總統制的這個權力跟權威所以當然大家也不願意再去修正了這才是真實的問題那其實像昨天的公聽會我有聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2403.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2432.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
其實當然也有委員說我們其實今天好像是找錯對象了因為對象應該是行政院長可是我們也知道行政院長在目前的制度下其實他等於只是一個總統的執行長一個傀儡其實就算是把他倒閣了其實別的結構不會改變我想在野陣營他也不會接受說今天是重選了國會但是什麼都不改變所以他同時但是因為我們對總統是無法節制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2432.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2455.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我為什麼剛才特別在我的發言稿中提出所謂左右共治因為台灣最接近的制度其實確實是法國的這個制度我們跟他們最大的不同就在於說他們的總理會選出一定是遵循國會這個多數因為國會這個多數它本身就是一個人民選擇這樣子的一個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2457.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2485.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那但是在台灣卻是不用這樣子所以我們才會有真正這種少數總統少數票總統少數票國會的這樣子這個狀況造成今天這麼大的僵局那如果我們能夠學習像是法國的這樣的一個制度其實建立的所謂的真的這就是大聯合的這個政府我覺得台灣在制度上才能夠真正有機會往前再走一步否則的話今天剛才已經講過了所有的不管今天是釋憲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2486.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2515.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
富裕的就算是倒閣的其實都不能解決任何我們現在行政跟立法之間的僵局事實上我們是從制度面就已經出了大問題如果我們今天不去解決真正制度面的問題只用所謂的繼續現在沿用這樣子只能站在黨派的立場只能黨同伐異只能以少數押拔的方式繼續作為行政上的執政它的問題就永遠不能解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2516.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2521.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
以上謝謝好謝謝張祺祿教授下一位我們請陳怡凱教授發言謝謝主席各位委員各位在座的先進來賓大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2531.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2545.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那今天呢關於這個彈劾案呢申請人他提出的理由是說賴清德總統他違反了憲法第37條總統公佈法律均行政院院長之附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2547.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2566.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是我們可以看出行政院院長根本沒有附屬所以說總統也沒有辦法去公佈法律所以從這一點來看賴總統並沒有違反憲法第37條因為這一條明擺的規定要先附屬總統才能夠公佈沒有附屬就根本就沒有公佈的餘地 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2568.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2593.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這才是合乎憲法第37條然後申請者又指責說這個賴總統違反這個憲法第72條就是這個復議案如果說就是說被退對不起違反這個行政院長違反這個徵修條文第三條第二項第二款也就是說退和復議如果是被 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2595.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2619.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
維持原案的話那麼行政院院長就應該要接受那麼目前跟包括昨天的這個討論呢重點都在所謂的徵修條文第三條第二項第二款所謂的應接受是不是文字上所謂的或是說像申請者所想當然爾的是不是說的意思就是行政院院長就應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2621.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2632 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
接受 然後變成有接受的義務然後變成有附屬的義務然後總統就有公佈的義務是不是一連串的這個義務然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2633.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2649.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
然後憂鬱沒有按照這樣的一個義務之旅行所以賴總統跟這個行政院長都違反了憲法那這一條是最大的癥結點所以呢我昨天已經有去澄清了那我們今天再強調一遍就是說這個條文根據這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2653.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2679.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
大法官的四字五二零号的解释他明明白白的讲就宪法第五十七条是行政院跟立法院之间的制衡那昨天的学者讲到这个附属呢是对于总统的制衡那这里是有误解的因为呢在制衡的来源呢他是这个附属呢他是为总统 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2680.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2697.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
未來要去公佈法律的行為去負責而不是去制衡總統而是應該是去制衡國會才對那麼四字五二零號也已經明明白白的講這個制度這個設計是行政院對立法院的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2698.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2713.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
然後是不是徵修條文第三條第二項第二款把它這個辭職把它改掉改成應接受因此這裡的字痕就會改變大法官在4至520號也明明白白的講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2716.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2737.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
講說這裡沒有改變這個制衡仍然繼續維持下去那我們就要去討論什麼是行政院跟立法院在憲法第57條的這裡所謂的制衡這制衡不是大家投投票表決然後就相安無事過去就憲法第57條如果說退回服務役被維持原案的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2737.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2760.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這時候行政院院長有兩條路一條呢憲法就規定說他要嘛就應辭辭要不然就是應接受那麼在過去呢憲法學者呢包括劉慶瑞在他的中華民國憲法要義以及李鴻熙教授呢都解釋其實這個解釋也是台大的通說啦就是說呢這一條呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2760.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2780.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
就是說如果說在退回富裕被維持原案的話那麼這裡就是一個倒閣因為根據制衡的原理就是不信任投票的意思所以行政院長在這個時候就只能辭職而且是被辭職並沒有可選擇說我不要辭職 那我接受反對的見解是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2782.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2797.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這也是少數見解但當時也有存在就是說呢五十七條有一個總統的這個復議核可權所以總統不是虛位元首那在這裡呢沒有發生主動的倒閣的一個效果而是呢行政院長呢可以選擇是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2799.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2828.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
接受那无论是赞成说这个倒格说或是不自动倒格说都是认为这一个条文明明白白的就是行政院跟立法院之间的制衡而且明明白白的讲这里跟倒格是有关系的只是说一个是说没有立即发生倒格的效果一说是说必须倒格的效果必须辞职另一说是说没有立即发生倒格的效果可以选择 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2830.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2843.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
接受所以這裡的接受不是說這個法案它照全盤接收的意思而是不發生立即倒閣的效果是這個意思而已那麼徵修條文第三條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2844.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2871.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
以及第二款跟第三款把這個延續過來只不過說本來是行政院他選擇是辭職或者是接受倒閣或是沒有倒閣那麼現在是變成說僵局還是在也就是說這裡的僵局沒有解決也就制衡在這裡並不是說大家投投票就沒事了而是在這裡形成了立法院跟行政院的意識不一致對這個重大法案的意識不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2872.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2897.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那這時候呢反而皮球呢是回到了國會這裡這個徵修條文的改變呢就變成說國會可選擇是不是要發動倒閣所以就變成是還有這個第三款的這個倒閣權那麼從這裡的解釋來看的話呢也就是說這僵局呢目前根據我們這個權力制衡的解釋呢並沒有解決而是說留待國會呢再進一步發動倒閣 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2898.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2915.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那他如果不倒閣的話呢就表示他要妥協他妥協要怎麼辦呢就是法案呢要重新要跟行政院再重新去談出一個各退一步談出一個結果出來所以這裡並沒有所謂的因此呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2915.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2933.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
照文藝上從歷史的發展57條的體系性解釋跟第三條第二項第二款第三款的這樣的一個以及所謂的權力制衡的原理在這裡並沒有硬要逼著行政院院長要照盤全說立法院的這個復議案被維持原案的這個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2934.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2959.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那否則的話問題就解決了根本就不需要再發動倒閣權了但是我們延續過去的這裡所謂的應接受並不是照單全說立法院這時候他退回復義被反夥決之後這樣的一個意識行政院他在這裡仍然是意見不一致那就等著被倒閣但是立法院又不發動倒閣這時候唯一的解釋就是必須妥協而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2959.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2980.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
或者是要提起釋憲提起這個憲法訴訟機關正義的這樣的一個憲法訴訟那這裡憲法並不是說都沒有解決的途徑那麼接著就是說另一個也是我剛剛也有提到過了那麼這個附屬他其實就是對抗國會那其實他的意義就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2983.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3004.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
對總統未來他如果公佈法律的話他要為總統這個行為負責所以附屬是為總統的行為負責的他不可能去制衡這個總統他是制衡國會的因此根據德國的學說跟通說的見解跟實務的見解行政院院長就是他的總理他總理他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3006.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3021.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
認為法律的程序有瑕疵以及它的內容有違反憲法的時候它可以拒絕附屬總統也可以拒絕公佈因為總統跟總理他們都有單獨的這樣的一個審查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3025.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3043.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個申請案裡面又說那總統自己解釋憲法自己說這裡的法案違憲然後他就拒絕公佈那是不是總統就是僭越了大法官的職權呢事實上各個憲法機關在行使職權的時候都必須自行先解釋憲法看看他有沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3045.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3061.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那麼立法院職權行使法第十一條法案在第三讀的時候除非有違憲否則的話只能做文字上的修正這是條文明明白白的規定的也就是說立法委員必須要自行先解釋憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3061.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3089.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
看看這個條文目前要通過的這個法案有沒有違憲若有的話呢要回來調整也就是說立法委員自己也是先解釋了憲法所以並不能說總統是根據他的判斷這裡是有明顯重大的違憲因此就說他僭越了大法官的職權而是每一個憲法機關呢通通必須要遵守憲法都必須要先進行這樣的一個解釋那因此呢綜合我們的這樣的說明呢那總統呢在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3091.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3101.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
的行為他可以拒絕事實上他沒有他現在也還不到他拒絕公佈因為行政院長根本都還沒有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3103.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3127.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
他沒有附屬的話就行政院長拒絕附屬賴總統剛好也沒有可以公佈的一個憲法上的權限因此在這裡並沒有發生說他有違法的問題那麼從德國以及實務上都是說這兩個行政院院長跟總統他們是有權利單獨來進行這樣的一個審查在這個明顯重大違憲是可以拒絕的因此賴總統跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3129.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3157.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
跟行政院長並沒有違憲的問題謝謝好謝謝陳教授下一位我們請張亞中教授發言主席各位委員各位先進感謝立法院舉辦這場公聽會這不只是一場程序性的會議而是一個關乎台灣民主憲政是否仍然存活的重要時刻今天我想談的主題是賴清德總統的行為當然已經違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3158.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3171.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
但是因為政治因素彈劾已不再可能當彈劾已經不再可能的時候總統是否已經走上了民選獨裁台灣要這樣的民主嗎首先我誠懇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3173.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3196.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
请所有的与会者在今天的公听会中带着两个重要的东西来发言一个是知识一个是良心请暂时放下政党的立场不要先问你站在哪一边而要先问这样做对不对不要急着替任何政党辩护而要先替中华民国的宪法与台湾的民主来负责 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3197.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3223.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我期待今天在这个场域里出现的发言是建立在专业的知识上是出自于内心良知的判断而不是为了迎合立场服务权利请不要在这样一个攸关宪政命运的公开场合昧着良心违背专业说出自己明知站不住脚的话探索道理最基本的方法就是将心比心换位思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3224.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3245.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我也誠懇的請民進黨的朋友想一想如果今天做出同樣行為的不是賴清德而是一位國民黨籍的總統你們會接受嗎你們會說這是核憲嗎如果答案是否定的那麼今天真正該被捍衛的就不是立場而是憲法與民主的底線 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3247.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3263.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
今天这场公听会的核心不只是总统是否出现因受弹劾的宪政为师,而是一个更根本的问题,当宪政制衡失灵,民主是否正在走向失控,而人民是否还愿意清醒地面对。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3264.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3288.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我先談一個最基本卻常常被遺忘的概念民主政治最基本的原則人民是主人選出來的是公僕而不是新的主人但是近年來我們看到的卻是權力越來越集中制衡越來越被視為障礙賴清的總統不但拒絕國會制衡甚至把憲法視為可以隨意揉捏的麵團一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3290.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3314.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
是他权力操作的工具把支持者视为他动员的支援把异议者视为必须清除的对象这已经不是民主治理而是唯我独尊的权力支配我要清楚地说总统必须一线行政而不是用个人的政治意志来取代宪法 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3315.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3339.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
总统是人民选出的最大的一个公仆而不是皇帝也不是可以为所欲为的统治者总统应该遵守的宪法而不是他手上的葵花宝典总统你是人民的公仆而不是那个日月神教的教主任我行中华民国不是你说了算今天的发言我分为四个重点来说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3340.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3357.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
第一点赖清德的多项作为已经明确地跨越了宪法的红线完全符合弹劾的要件包括下面五个刚刚几位学者已经讲得非常清楚我就简短地跳过去第一个不公复宪法的违宪 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3358.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3378.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
立法院三讀通過財政收支劃分法修正案行政院賦予遭到否決後總統依法基因公佈但他卻選擇拒絕這不是他的政治判斷而是無財量空間的憲法義務拒絕公佈本身就是違憲第二個不附屬的制度性違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3379.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3408.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
各位在多次修宪以后我们国家的宪法已经倾向于总统制行政院长附属法律是程序上的义务而不是他个人的政治选项赖清德不仅没有要求行政院长依法附属反而纵容他以不附属作为对抗立法院的政治工具破坏了总统行政院长和立法院之间的宪政协力关系这属于制度性的违宪第三个不执行法律的违宪 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3410.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3422.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
宪法申修条文规定负意遭到否决后行政院长立刻就应该接受然而行政部门却以不附属不执行的方式变相的否定国会的决议这已经是实质的危险 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3423.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3452.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
第四个违宪 践踏宪政分立的违宪是否违宪唯有判断标准的司法院大法官行政部门却自行否定立法院通过的法律效益形同于总统与立法院形同于总统与行政院兼任大法官行政权遣越了司法权自行否定的法律效益严重地践踏宪政上的权力分立第五个违宪 破坏民主制衡的违宪 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3453.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3480.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
透过不公布不附属不执行行政权全面的凌驾立法权使立法院在总统任内几乎没有办法制衡行政权这种系统性的破坏民主制衡形成了超级大总统台湾实质上走向了宪政的独裁化总结而言赖清德默许甚至主导不公布不附属不执行国会通过的法律系统性的否定立法行为 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3481.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3503.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
这已经不是政策的争议而是总统拒绝遵守宪法宪政秩序正在被破坏赖清德已经可以自行决定哪些法律是有效哪些是无效立法院已经形同虚设民主制衡机制名存实亡赖清德的违宪行为当然已经完全符合弹劾的红线 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3505.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3533.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
第二个 赖基德上台以后已经呈现清楚的民选独裁的治理模式我简单的分为几点第一点 他把当双少数的处境转换成全面的对抗国会当总统将未配合行政权等同于敌对势力或杂质的时候其实民主就被简化成为赢者全拿输者晋升这就是民主独裁的典型特征 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3534.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3559.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
第二个他滥用话语权压制异议赖政府频繁以国安反渗透抗中保台为理由将不同政治立场监督声音甚至合法的政治主张都贴上了危害国家安全的标签国安经常被无限上纲成为合理化的集权打压反对力量的工具政治的反对不再被视为民主的常态而被视为不忠诚 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3560.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3586.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
第三个他在司法与检调高度的政治化形成寒蝉效应当赖清德执政对在野政治人物异议者的司法动作高度密集同时对于他执政阵营的相关争议却呈现明显的办案迟缓或者低调处理当人民普遍认为骂政府会有风险的时候即使我们台湾还有选举但是民主的实质已经被掏空了 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3587.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3613.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
第四个刚刚也讲了他以政治动员和大罢免来取代制度内的制衡面对国会的制衡赖尽的不是以选举制度内的协商而是动员政治力量情绪诉求与大罢免的作为企图改变立法院现有的政党结构比例当动员被用来迫使议会屈服人民的力量沦为领袖操纵的工具这正是民选独裁最危险的转折点 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3614.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3642.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
第五个他拒绝自我节制否定宪法的惯例我们知道宪政不是钻漏洞的比赛当最高的权力者只问能不能做而不问该不该做的时候民主必然会迅速的对话总结而言赖清德的确是透过选举上台但是他的作为逐步瓦解制衡压缩意义集中权力完全拒绝自我节制与反省这正是民选独裁的标准路径 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3643.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3653.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
第三个部分我想谈的是台湾的民主已经从是非之争退化到立场之争弹劾制度名存实亡是民主宪政失灵的警讯 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3654.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3672.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
各位,彭河需要三分之二立委同意,在现在高度的对立党纪至上的政治文化下,几乎不可能启动。问题不在于门槛,而在于只要总统来自于执政党,便即使明显的违宪,也会被像对面一样全面的护航。 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3673.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3690.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
当台湾的政治只剩下立场不问是非当宪法只在有利的时候被高举不利的时候被践踏那么弹劾制度就从制衡的工具变成了纵容危险的保护网那么最后一点当宪政已经失灵人们愿不愿意觉醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3691.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3713.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
各位,我们必须诚实面对一个残酷的现实,在法律上弹劾已经具备条件,在政治上几乎不可能完成。那么这种制度存在却无法运作,权力失衡却无法修正,违宪明确却无法救责的现象,正是台湾民主制度的最大悲剧。出路只有两条,第一条,总统自我节制,回归宪政。 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3714.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3731.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
这在于赖清德的疑念之间但是看起来非常困难那么第二个就是我们人民要与在野的力量集体的觉醒用行动来守住我们的宪法这条路是最根本的因为宪政的独裁者从来不会用温柔的劝说而自我退让 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3732.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3747.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
各位我們在野黨基本上要堅持支持者也不能只是在網路上憤怒而不願意走上街頭同樣的我希望民進黨的支持者也不要只在乎立場而不願意用憲法而不願意讓憲法繼續被踐踏扭曲 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3748.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3777.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
根本不在乎而一些中間選民又選擇冷漠犬儒事不關己那麼最終的結果只有一個獨裁者得逞憲法崩解台灣的民主名存實亡最後我想講一句話今天我們討論的其實不只是賴清德是否應該被彈劾而是中華民國的憲法還要不要救台灣的民主還要不要繼續的沉淪謝謝大家謝謝張教授接下來請林俊宏律師發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3784.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3810.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
謝謝主席很榮幸今天來參與今天的公聽會我想今天來談彈劾總統這件事情我想我們是不是要先回到一個本質來看待今天到底發生了什麼事情在我們的憲政上我自己看到的是目前就是憲法兩個權力上的僵局行政權跟立法權的僵局 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3811.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3825.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那我们行政权跟立法权的僵局在制度上有没有解我们在宪法的制度设计上有解怎么解我们依照宪法战修条文第三条第二项第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3826.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3853.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個時候我們的制度設計上應該是要對行政院院長提出不信任案然後進行國會改選然後訴諸新的民意由新的民意來決定來處理說這個行政權跟立法權之間僵局該如何解決這是一條很清楚而且也是一條很成熟的一個憲政的民主路徑這個在其他國家其實也都可以觀察得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3854.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3878.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
當然有很多的先進都會講說那好像我們的行政權除了我們的行政院長外好像還有個總統那總統怎麼辦那我們的憲法機制裡面怎麼處理其實我們在憲法機制裡面在處理總統的部分大概有兩個工具我想這個之前先進大概也都有提到一個是彈劾就是我們今天坐在這裡的原因另外一個是罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3880.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3906.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那當然也有人認為說這兩種工具不夠啦其實都沒辦法實質去處理到總統那怎麼辦還有一個方法修憲啊我們覺得我們制度不足的時候我們是不是可以考慮修憲呢那可是在沒有修憲之前制度給我們就是這兩條路沒有第三條路那我要說明一下這兩條路在談什麼事情這兩條路談何在處理的是法律責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3908.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3934.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
罷免要處理的原則上是政治責任我想這兩條路徑在我們的制度設計上是清楚的從我們的彈劾的制度來看我們最後的審查的機關是誰是憲法法庭那憲法法庭它處理的不會是政治問題它要處理的是說我們的憲法規範有沒有遭到重大的違反所以彈劾的審查標的合理的理解就是總統有沒有違反了憲法的重大義務或規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3935.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3958.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
至於政策好不好決定對不對這個方向大家喜不喜歡那是政治責任的問題大家要走的是罷免不是彈劾接下來我們再回來看看說我們這兩個提案的理由第一個理由他談的是行政院長不附屬這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3959.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3973.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
其實昨天的討論跟剛剛的幾位先進的說明我們大概可以得到一個結論行政院院長的附屬權應該是在憲政上行政院院長的獨立的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3976.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4002.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
憲政上行政院長的獨立權限這點我昨天到現在聽下來其實好像沒有太大的爭議那當然中間有一些小的不同的看法有的人認為說行政院長的附屬權是要來對抗總統的有些人認為說這個附屬權除了可以對抗總統之外也可以對抗立法院好 不管他可以對抗的對象是誰這個權利是行政院長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4003.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4025.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
如果大家覺得是說行政院長去行使這個權利或不行使這個權利是好或者是不好那接下來的問題是那你要追究的人是誰應該是行政院長吧應該是行政院長啊那怎麼會去選擇說用這個理由說我們要來試試看要來彈劾總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4027.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4046.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以我們在這邊現在我們看到的一個狀況是什麼我們用一個不是屬於總統職權的行為然後也不是總統的權利要去追究總統的法律責任甚至要彈劾總統這個在憲法的理解上至少我在法律的理解上我認為是完全說不通的完全沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4049.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4065.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
如果真的要彈劾總統那從制度上你就要告訴我們說總統你做了什麼違反了憲法的哪個重大義務而不是把行政院長的職權的選擇轉化成對總統的彈劾理由這個在制度的選擇上其實很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4066.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4092.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以從這個結果來看的話其實讓人懷疑說提案人的想法到底是在想什麼他是真的要追究法律責任嗎還是彈劾只是本質上它只是一個工具化的行使它有其他的特殊的目的呢第二個我們看到提案理由上有第二個理由是關於台積電赴美投資這個部分這個在這兩天的討論其實比較少一點當然這一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4093.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4118.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
比較單純因為其實它好像不是法律問題它看起來好像比較像是一個政策決定那如果是一個政策決定你可以喜歡你也可以不喜歡你可以支持你也可以反對你也可以認為這個方向是錯的可是這是政治責任的範疇啊剛剛跟各位分享的是說政治責任的範疇要怎麼處理好像也不是要走彈劾這條路徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4119.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4147.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
更何況我們現在看看說從現實狀況來說台積電目前的經營狀況我覺得它是一張每個人都想要得到的一張股票我也蠻想得到的只是我沒有真正要檢討的是說在這個制度上到底這邊這個是不是能夠成為彈劾的理由那要檢討的也只能是政治選擇的取捨而不是憲法層面上的取捨的違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4148.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4172.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那既然這樣的話如果說我們認為說把台積電變得這麼好應該要負政治責任那就負政治責任啊讓大家看看說這個好還是不好啊所以從這個來看的話也是可以知道的就是說這個提案的理由好像也不是彈劾要處理的事情啊那我們硬是要把它放在彈劾的框架裡面結果是什麼我想大家心裡有數啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4173.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4195.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以我們在理解完這兩個提案理由之後,其實我們不難得出一個結論。今天大家坐在這邊討論彈劾總統在實質上、在憲政的意義上、在程序上或是結論目標的達成上是沒有意義的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4197.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4214.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
不是因為彈劾制度不重要是因為這兩個提案本身就不可能用來真的彈劾總統所以這也就像我剛剛說的讓人家合理的懷疑說提案人真正的想法到底是不是要啟動一個憲法意義上的彈劾程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4217.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4241.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那接下來要說,那好啦,不管怎麼樣,提案人還是啟動了嘛,還是做了這件事情。我想要再提的就是,那總統要不要就這個事情到立法院來,來進行聽證。我想這件事情也蠻單純的,因為113,憲判9,已經講得很清楚了,總統並沒有出席的法律義務跟憲法義務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4244.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4270.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
立法院可以邀請總統來可是立法院也只能邀請至於總統有沒有義務到立法院來從法條上 從憲法的制度上目前看不出來有這樣的義務更何況我剛剛前面提到的我們回到實質上這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4272.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4291.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
彈劾的理由 主要的彈劾理由這兩個彈劾的理由就不是對於真正法律責任的追究所進行的理由來說明啊那這樣子的話立法院去邀請總統出席的必要性跟正當性當然也就更加的薄弱啦所以從這個提案來說的話其實我心裡覺得真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4300.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4327.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
有點耗費大家的資源國家寶貴的資源所以我想回到事件的本質目前的狀況就是憲法權力間的僵局行政權跟立法權的僵局在權力分立底下每個權力都是一樣的都是平等的自然就會有權力之間不同意見的時候就會有權力之間有事情沒辦法解決的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4329.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4354.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
有些國家有完整或者是比較好的解決的制度路徑我們國家憲法上的解決的制度路徑就是島格所以認為說我們目前碰到這樣的僵局我們就回到我們合理的制度路徑去我們要回到島格的這個路徑再次提到是說如果我們對於我們現在現有的憲政路徑制度如果設計不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4357.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4381.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們覺得應該要增加其他的路徑或進行其他的設計我們應該要開始討論的是修憲而不是在現有的框架之下啟動一個永遠得不到結果的路徑然後耗費寶貴的國家資源讓大家一起坐在這邊做一件沒有辦法永遠達不到目標的事情以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4384.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4411.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 謝謝林律師下一位我們請彭錦鵬教授發言主席各位先進很榮幸能夠參與這個公聽會但是我的內心其實是感覺到非常非常的遺憾彈劾這件事情在第一個案子裡面講得非常清楚我基本上我是贊同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4412.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4438.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
但是第二個案子很顯然並沒有很精準的來針對總統所應該扮演的憲法上的一些義務所以我今天的發言包含兩個部分第一個部分賴清德是一個違憲的總統第二個部分賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統剛剛亞中兄講得非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4440.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4462.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所有的理論我也都支持但是今天我們公聽會的重點其實只有一個那就是總統到底有沒有違憲所以我們必須要來加以審理但是我也必須要講說我們這一次的第一個案子的彈劾案基本上是宣誓性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4463.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4479.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
原因是就算立法院討論了然後經過所有的這些流程但是要得到三分之二立法委員的同意那很顯然幾乎是不可能所以我今天的發言其實是針對著我們的民進黨立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4486.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4512.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
原因是你能夠正視一個總統居然可以光明正大像無賴一樣的違憲嗎因為我們從第一個案子裡面可以很清楚看到所有的程序一路都已經走到了復議案而復議是失敗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4513.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4541.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
在宪法的规定里边非常清楚互议失败从2025年的12月5日互议失败开始算现在已经是41天了这41天里边宪法没有任何的明文规定说那要怎么办如果总统不公布的话怎么办宪法是没有一个是虚制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4543.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4570.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
每一個字都要遵行當代表人民的立法院的多數通過了法律了總統就只能夠公佈不公佈的責任必須大概要由憲法法院去審理但是在這之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4572.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4598.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我相信總統應該要做的是說我用什麼樣的理由來爭取全民的同意而壓迫國民黨跟民眾黨再次修改這個收支發分法在政治上只有這樣的否則的話你就是違憲所以這違憲的現實呢就讓我們想起說賴總統現在正在進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4601.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4624.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
一個階段叫做不進市議會的2.0版而且已經四十一天了彈劾畢竟是憲法裡面終極的究責條款我們要特別慎重但是遺憾的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4625.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4653.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
衡量賴清德在首罰附憲的記錄上充滿瑕疵甚至出現極為嚴重的違憲慣犯的記錄那麼受到立法院的彈劾我覺得是有必要的那我第二部分我就進入談到賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統第一項不進市議會賴清德擔任台南市長長達八個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4656.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4666.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那個天數有所變動但是差不多就是八個月市府官員不進議會被監察院稱作憲政的惡例加以彈劾監察院的彈劾文裡邊認為這一舉動是首開地方自治史上官員集體不進議會之惡例違反地方制度法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4683.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4711.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
宣誓條例的規定嚴重灼傷現代民主法治國基本原則欲越憲法與地方制度法規範地方自治團體首長行政權之基本界限架空地方立法權動搖民主社會基本核心這一段彈劾文剛剛好就可以用在這一次的彈劾案也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4712.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4729.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
他蔑視了民主跟法治的基本原則要守法守憲第二點賴清德主導大罷免否定中華民國憲政架構違背總統誓詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4736.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4762.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
當2024年1月13號選舉那一天晚上大概7點半的時候台灣2300萬同胞透過選舉就已經確定了嘲笑野大的事實在民進黨陳水扁在任的時候他也是同樣的情況但是他基本上是遵守憲法規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4763.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4782.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
縱然他也覺得很委屈可是他也都遵守憲法規定賴清德在大選之後立刻立刻立刻附和民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民推動大罷免換句話說台灣人民在2024年1月13號的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4793.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4812.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
賴清德是不接受這個結果的那是太嚴重的事情了這不是我講的也不是賴清德講的是柯建民講的說推動大罷免賴清德密謀大罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4813.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4838.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然後2024大選之後馬上就決定要搞大罷免他每週三固定和總統賴清德開會並報告各項步驟總統皆知情換句話說賴清德主導大罷免否定中華民國人民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4839.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4868.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
民主定期合法選舉的合法性這太可恥了推動大罷免在本質上就是違憲的行為否定合法定期選舉的合法性否定民意的多數否定中華民國憲法的憲政架構總而言之它就是否定中華民國憲法違背總統誓詞於必遵守憲法盡忠執著 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4871.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4896.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
第三點賴清德違背積極提名大法官的憲法義務我是憲法大法官任期制度的設計者憲法徵修條文第五條如果稱之為彭錦鵬條款也是正確的第五條的條款跟各位報告也是我第一次公開的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4898.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4918.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
條文的文字就是我們最受尊敬的吳庚大法官幫忙我抄你條文的。基於我們當時有紳士協議,我沒有在他生前公布,但是我現在可以告訴各位,確實就是這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4920.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4948.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
憲法徵求條文第五條規定的是大法官15人並以其中一人為院長一人為副院長由總統提名立法院同意任命在我們的憲法訴訟法裡面規定大法官人數應任期屆滿辭職免職或死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4950.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4974.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
未打15人總統應於2個月內補足提名而大法官現有總額要10人以上才能夠參與評議且同意違憲宣告人數不得低於9人但是我們剛剛發生的事情是5個大法官就 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4975.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4986.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
公然的 毫不支持的沒有任何的法學修養的這種情況之下公佈所謂的憲法判決案 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4988.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5011.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以總結來講我要說的是賴總統違憲而且是違憲的慣犯他應該要好好的深自反省否則我們未來的四年未來的三年大概也會碰到大法官人數一直空缺而沒有辦法審核他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5012.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5035.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
彈劾案就算民進黨的立法委員同意彈劾案好謝謝彭教授下一位我們請周威廷局長發言好主席大家好各位早安我想我今天也是跟我們彭老師一樣懷著一顆沉重的心情來促進這場公聽會因為我們要討論的是我們中華民國的總統彈劾的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5041.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5068.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
中華民國總統彈劾的問題在現場諸多學者專家老師面前我當然不算學者甚至連專家也不算但是我是一個從事警職42年的老警察為了我們警察退休金的不當被砍山多年來我寫了將近50多篇的文章投書各大媒體不斷為我們警察的權益為我們警察爭公道但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5072.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5079.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個政府給我們答案永遠是將警察視同一般人緣 橫憑考量彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5086.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5113.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就是整屆公務人員有沒有違法失職在違法的部分我想也都專家學者都已經討論到我請就我們賴慶德總統失職的部分來做個探討失職簡單的說是說在職守上有沒有疏忽職責有沒有善盡職責有沒有為而不為 為而不當當為而不為 不當而而為我就有最熟悉的警察退休金被砍三來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5117.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5136.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我想在年金改革一時我們警察人就認為我們應該跟同志性高的軍人所得替代率等同結果呢我們的結果就是剛才講過的適同一般公務人員 和平考量但是真的有和平考量嗎就以軍人來說軍人有國軍醫院 榮民總醫院 三軍總醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5148.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5169.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
總共我算得過 有16所 各位有沒有聽過有一所警察醫院行政院底下有國軍退出軍官兵輔導委員會各位有沒有聽過輔導警察的委員會 或者是司 或者科 或者局處警察又有8萬多人 警察很多都是50歲 50歲退休他們也需要有第二春 可是這個政府有照顧過他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5172.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5200.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
基於尊重軍人跟老師一百零一年前軍人跟警察是免所得罪的警察不但沒有免所得罪甚至我們是司法警察連司法津貼都領不到教師有將近三個月的寒暑假我們警察 全國警察放一天假試試看看這個社會亂成什麼樣子公務員 朝九晚五每天上班下班回家吃晚飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5202.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5227.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
例假日造休 警察可以這樣子嗎所以有感於此在113年10月份我在聯合報投書了一篇錦霄出生入死權益呢副標題是為接年殉職的同仁感到不值為什麼不值 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5231.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5258.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們沒有受到公平的待遇但是危險性最高根據內政部統計106年到114年警察因公死亡的人數有47個人平均每年9.4個人因公受傷的人4837個人每年平均967個人換句話說每年我們警察因公傷亡的人數是所有軍人公務員教師的總和還要多可見我們警察工作是多麼的危險多麼的辛勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5259.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5276.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
根據那警政署的統計,2011年到2021年,警察平均的死亡年齡是71.69歲。我們全國民平均的年齡是,死亡年齡是79.84歲。我們警察退休後,早死了8.15年。自由時報2017年3月20號統計,100年到104年,警察平均的死亡年齡是69.6歲。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5284.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5307.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們平均國人平均死亡年齡78.84歲換句話說我們早死了9.24歲總而言之我們比一般的國民警察退休後早死了八九年為什麼僥倖活到退休的還會早死呢早死了八九年就是因為我們超時工作日夜顛倒 勤務不正常 壓力大甚至讓他還記得宜蘭最近副總統到宜蘭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5315.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5340.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
一個警察在休假還被叫回來結果被撤職撞傷臟器破裂大腿骨折可見我們警察工作是多麼的辛苦多麼的危險可是呢這個政府給了我們公平的待遇如果說公務機關的人員是這個政府的員工或者子弟總統行政院長就是大家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5343.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5367.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
隔壁鄰居都看不下去了認為說你不該孤獨 你的孩子 你的孩子 你的員工所以行政院藍白立委在去年1月三讀通過了警察人員人事條例35條修正案要恢復我們的所值替代率甚至民眾黨黃國昌主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5371.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5395.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
張祺凱立委也都多次公開說明民眾黨經過兩次民調70%民意支持警察的年改提高可是呢這個法律三途通過總統公告我們的行政院依然認為自然難行據橫評考量連預算都不編 甚至申請釋憲暫時處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5400.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5429.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
有樣學樣軍人待遇條例教職人員撫恤之前退職條例公務人員撫恤之前退職辦法停砍1.5%也是一樣行政院仍然認為自然難行申請釋憲考試院比照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5431.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5450.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他們剋誰的十三名會剋誰是五人大法官人數不足的五人大法官會做違憲解釋總統身為五院院長五院之首獨攬了行政權獨攬了司法權甚至剝奪了立法院的立法權這樣的憲政危機我們不應該提出來彈劾不應該緊張嗎我們民眾不應該覺得恐懼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5478.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5506.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
然而我們賴清德總統在這樣的情形之下仍然悍然一意孤行地堅持到底我在這裡提出來前勞動部長何佩珊接受訪問說過外界不要迷失 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5507.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5516.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
不要以為砍年金才是改革強調撥補砍年金才是改革不要以為砍年金才是改革強調撥補也是改革我也藉由這個機會提出兩個觀點給大家參考就是立法的形成自由跟政策的可變性 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5538.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5563.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
立法院本來就是代表民意的最高機關 立法機關自然有其立法形成的自由 乃有各項法案的提出包括剛才講過的警察人事條例修正案 軍人待遇條例 甚至停砍1.58等都是年金改革的制度 即在高度的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5564.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5591.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
性的事項及屬於高度政策性的事項尤其退休金制度的設計調整與否是否繼續改革屬於立法機關高度輕身自由的範圍立法者可以砍也可以不砍甚至停砍反此本身並不等於違憲因為憲法並沒有要求一定要改革到某種程度所以如果我們賴清德總統仍然一意孤行 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5596.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5606.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
當獨裁成為事實我想彈劾就成為義務當然我們老師彭景鵬老師教授講的彈劾可能不會過只是一個宣示性的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5607.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5631.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
耐勁的總統甚至認為說我在台南市就曾經被彈劾過我是一個彈劾的慣犯對我來講可能是一個勳章但是很抱歉這枚勳章可能是一枚恥辱的勳章再說一遍這枚勳章可能是恥辱的勳章一刻很久遠將永遠有流傳 謝謝好 謝謝周局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5634.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5643.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們現在學者專家都已經發言完畢休息十分鐘休息之後進行審查小組委員的詢問現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5663.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5665.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我按掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6252.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6275.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們現在繼續開會,進行審查小組委員的詢問首先請陳委員召之發言主席、專家學者們、各位同事、各位媒體朋友以及關心台灣民主憲政的每一位夥伴台灣今天正在經歷一場由現任總統所主導的憲政危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6277.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6289.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
憲法是國家跟人民之間的權責約束也可以說就是國家跟人民的契約每一個國人都要遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6291.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6313.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
身為國家元首更是負有最高強度盡忠職守的憲法義務但是當總統所屬的政黨成為國會的少數的時候很遺憾的總統沒有選擇溝通卻是選擇對抗首創國家憲政史上的一個惡例 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6315.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6335.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
事實上立法院自第十一屆開議以來行政院除了違法 違三讀通過的條例 編列預算還發生行政院 行政院長不附屬已經復議 復議失敗的法案而總統卻竟表贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6336.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6364.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
在民主法治社會所有的公民都非常清楚每一部法案的成立不是個人的好惡而是取決於法案內容是否符合法治國的原則跟憲法的規範對於是否合憲由於憲法法庭應該由憲法法庭做最終的判斷不是由總統盡致宣告為先或默許行政院長以不附屬的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6367.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6383.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
踐踏民意代表所提出的一個法律也就是只有憲法法庭才能夠做最終的判斷才能夠對法律做出到底是合憲或違憲的一個判斷總統跟行政院長完全沒有這個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6385.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6402.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是總統跟行政院長的作為充分顯示現任的總統不只是企圖削弱國會的立法權更是踐踏憲法所保障的司法獨立掠奪原本只屬於大法官的憲政裁判權 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6404.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6425.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
針對以下事由賴清德總統對立法院三讀通過經行政院附議失敗的財政收支劃分法透過行政院長以不附屬的方式來配合有違憲失職台灣民眾黨上個月提出了彈劾案獲得跨黨派59位立委的連署面對這樣專政的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6427.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6452.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
作为最高的民意机关我们有义务守护台湾人的权利我们更有义务要唤醒总统不要成为破坏宪政的凶手去年11月14日立法院依法三读通过修正财政收支划分法行政院提出复议之后立法院已经再次表决维持原决议 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6453.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6477.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
並依程序私請總統公佈那麼依照憲法第72條總統必須在10日內公佈這是憲法賦予總統的義務不是建議 更不是參考總統沒有權利拒絕履行程序性的義務然而 遺憾的賴總統沒有依循憲法形式反而在法律三讀通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6479.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6503.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
召集了執政黨立委在黨中央開辯當會密謀討論要以不附屬或是附屬後不執行的方式來決定法律要不要執行這是赤裸裸的踐踏民主法治而台灣的民主憲政一再被挑戰台灣民眾黨立院黨團要向賴政府表達最嚴正的抗議此外 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6505.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6523.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
附屬制度在憲政制度的設計上它本來是行政院長用來制衡總統權力的工具是行政院對立法院負責的一個機制絕對不是行政院用來否決國會三讀法律的手段憲法非常清楚的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6524.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6547.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
行政院如果認為國會通過的法律至愛難行可以提出復議但復議失敗之後呢就必須接受立法院的決議否則復議制度還有什麼意義呢行政院乾脆不要復議了直接用不附屬的方式讓法律消失好了如果今天才劃法可以被選擇性的不公佈那麼明天是不是牢記法 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6549.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6568.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
公投法甚至任何法律都可能因為總統不喜歡就被擱置了呢如此立法院三讀的意義是什麼人民選出的立委還有實質的權利嗎如果接受這樣的做法代表台灣不再是法治國家而是因人設置的人治國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6570.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6585.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
行政院和總統向社會大眾一再透過話語權宣稱有些法律違憲有損國家安全破壞財政紀律本席要再強調一次是否違背憲法從來不是行政權說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6586.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6608.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
如果行政院可以自行判定 那麼憲法法庭存在的意義是什麼大法官存在的意義是什麼權力分立的核心原則就是禁止擴權任何機關都不能夠以削弱其他機關為代價來擴張自己的權力但是現在立法院被架空了司法權被取代了 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6609.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6636.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所有的執行判決否決都集中在一黨一人身上這不是民主這是走向獨裁有人說憲法法庭是因為暫時無法審理所以行政部門可以自行判斷但真正的事實是造成憲法法庭空轉的就是總統自己提名大法官是總統的憲法職責那麼立法院行使同意權是一個制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6637.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6662.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
立法院不同意總統就必須重新提名啊不能用法庭不能運作為藉口來否決國會通過的法律這就像是他把鑰匙先丟掉了然後說我門打不開我必須破門而入這真的是執政黨毫無忌憚的一個以蠻橫凌駕憲政一百多年前袁世凱就是用穩定國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6663.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6674.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
避免内乱的民意逐步削弱议会消灭反对的声音但是后来人民发现了他夺走的不是个人的权利而是所有人的未来 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6675.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6700.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
民主或許不會一夕被奪走但是一旦被侵蝕了步步都可能造成無法逆轉的後果這是歷史給我們的警訊我們今天在台灣看到的其實正是類似的危機總統領導的行政團隊企圖架空立法院僭越司法權已經嚴重破壞憲法制度的底線過去多年來我陪著民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6701.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6713.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
從民進黨還沒有出生到成熟長大從街頭運動到帶領主要的民間社團民進黨的前輩啟發我對民主的認知就是政黨政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6714.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6738.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
有監督有制衡它的基礎就是憲政法治今日賴總統縱容執政黨利用龐大的行政資源製造社會對立消耗國力曾幾何時台灣人民在公開場合談論政治會懷著被批判的恐懼不敢在社群團體暢談自己的理想跟政治信念請問民進黨你還有資格紀念鄭南榮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6745.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6754.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
總統沒有責任嗎這是號稱民主進步的政黨主席的領導風格嗎已經執政十年的民主進步黨不用檢討嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6755.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6776.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
很遺憾的即使已經升為國家的總統賴總統依然擺脫不了民進黨黨主席的思維以黨領政的風格本席要再次重申台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨對第十六屆總統賴清德所提出的彈劾案是憲法賦予立法機關的最後一道防線 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6777.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6794.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這是對賴總統的憲政警示也是多數人民最嚴正的忠告總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民如果我們選擇沉默 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6795.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6813.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
接受總統選擇性的遵守憲法那麼明天後天每一條法律都可以面臨相同的對待我們做這個決定不是為了政黨利益而是為了國家與人民我們要告訴掌權者人民才是國家的主人台灣的民主得來不易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6814.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6839.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
不能讓他在看似合法 實則 專斷的操作上慢慢消失台灣需要的是尊重憲法 尊重國會 尊重人民的政府而不是走向集權之路的政府請記得憲法第二條國家的主權屬於國民全體不是任何政黨 也不是總統個人台灣的所有權狀不在執政黨手上 也不在總統個人的手上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6842.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6843.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好 謝謝陳委員接下來我們請省發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6851.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6873.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好 主席今天所與會的各位學者專家在場各位媒體記者先生女士朋友我想今天我們希望說這樣子的一個公聽會大家也邀請了學者也邀請了專家我們是希望說是針對這個我們的這個今天這個所謂彈劾案的這個憲法的相關的法理來進行討論不過剛才我整場聽下來比較像是一個政論節目那這個部分我比較感到遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6881.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6900.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我想在我開始討論這個憲政問題之前,我首先跟大家一起齊文共賞。大家來看看這個畫面上,秀出的是這次我們立法院議案關係文書,由本院委員傅坤祺、羅志強、林佩祥、黃國昌等60人所提出來的這個說話。今天我們為什麼開這個公聽會,就是因為這篇齊文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6901.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6930.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那我們來看這篇檄文他這裡面說簡單講他要彈劾賴清德總統他爐裂了大概這麼多大一篇爐裂大概就是六個理由第一個理由指揮授意行政院長左榮泰濫編預算這個部分第一個指揮授意這個部分你們提出指控的你們要有負舉證責任這個哪裡他在用什麼方式指揮授意第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6932.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6954.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
編列預算是行政院專屬的權利依照憲法第59條由行政院編列預算不管他怎麼編編列預算就是行政院的權利至於他預算編得好或不好你同意或不同意那是立法院的權利立法院的審查依照憲法第63條立法院就審查你覺得他爛編你就刪除你覺得他爛編你就全部凍結 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6956.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6984.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那你今天因為這個你今天把這個男孩當作一個彈劾那你要彈劾你再怎麼樣你也說預算是行政院長編的你也來對付行政院長啊結果你說用這個理由你來彈劾總統這個是這篇文章的第一期第二期這個說第二個理由他說因為造謠抹黑從來彈劾的理由都是看總統做什麼事而不是看那個人說什麼話 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6986.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7010.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
照謠抹黑一樣啊 你要舉證啊他照了什麼謠 抹了什麼黑沒有 就這四個字然後再來用言論 意思說總統講什麼話所以我們要來彈劾他 這個是第二期第三期 利用司法迫害議題這個我們檢察官依照職權追訴犯罪法院他依照職權發現真實進行什麼依法審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7012.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7028.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個你說用司法迫害異己 舉證啊 哪會講啊第四個 發動大惡霸 摧毀臺灣民主什麼時候人民行使依法 行使選舉罷免 創制 復決結果要來彈劾總統 這個邏輯我完全不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7033.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7060.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
人民行使依法行使啊它是違法行使的罷免嗎不是依法行使選舉罷免創制覆決你以此為理由來罷免總統第五 放任台積電赴美投資各位 台積電赴美投資所以要彈劾賴清德這個是不是這篇文章的第五期那為什麼鴻海去投資中國那也要來罷免賴清德好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7062.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7074.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這個一個民間公司的投資行為你拿來當作罷免總統的理由這些都不值一審啦我剛講這些都不值一審真正關鍵的是我們今天希望討論的第六個理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7075.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7104.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
你們認為說行政院長以不附屬為由來針對這個才化法行政院長不附屬這才是今天大概是最重要的關鍵剛剛大家談的有50%集中在這個議題上面所以我要來談一談這個所謂的不附屬這個問題退一萬步講啦就算這個是理由那也是行政院長不附屬啊行政院長不附屬按照憲法總統就不能公佈啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7105.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7121.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以總統不但沒有違憲而且他是完全是合憲的那至於行政院長不附屬你說行政院長不附屬違不違憲我們現在才討論但就算他違憲你們也用憲法的手段來處理行政院長怎麼會來彈劾總統呢這個又是這篇文章的第六集那我們來談這個所謂的附屬權剛剛也有學者提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7133.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7157.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
当初中华民国宪法有关于这个我先看这边很多政治学的教授还有我自己的老师都在这里当初所谓政治学大学第一课打开David Easton的政治学第一课第一个图是input output第二个图这是什么这是权力分立三个权力check and balance行政 立法 司法三个权力它各有各的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7158.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7183.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們看這每一個權力之間都有兩個箭頭一個是我制衡你的權力一個是你制衡我的權力三權分立美國的也是這樣日本的也是這樣中華民國比較特別五權但是我們在談中華民國的憲法設計它還是基本上在三權之間它還是彼此有互相制衡的權力這個是憲法制度這最基本的權力分立制度的原理那我國因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7184.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7203.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
原本最初當初的中華民國憲法本文由張君邁他所起草的中華民國憲法本文他其實整個是傾向內閣制的也就是剛剛大家所講的原本我們憲法所規定的行政院長附屬權原本是用來制衡總統的沒有錯當初設計憲法本文的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7205.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7219.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他是來制衡總統的他代表著內閣制很重要的一個精神這是當初我們中華民國憲法本文設計的時候但是蔣介石當總統他不甘願啊所以他用動員刊亂時期臨時條款把他整個變成總統制我們中華民國憲政體制上除了蔣經國當行政院長以外沒有內閣制過 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7232.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7251.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
當初原本附屬權是屬於是因為當初的行政院長必須經過立法院同意所以他具有強大的內閣制精神這是憲法本文但是我們在修憲的時候把這個行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7253.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7279.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
必須經立法院同意我們把它拿掉了拿掉了我們在這個哪一年修憲修憲的時候把這個行政院長任命行政院長必須經過立法院同意拿掉了使得我們憲法中修條文之後的內閣制精神整個降低了行政院長基本上變成總統任命所以因為他的權力來源來自總統所以行政院長沒有什麼制衡總統這回事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7280.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7305.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以如果附屬權理論上是制衡總統的話那時候附屬權就應該全部拿掉了但是我們留著我們不是全部保留我們再修憲一次當年為了這個你說第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是左翁派嗎不是第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是郝柏春他當年針對蔣仲林的人事案他拒絕附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7307.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7325.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以因為好柏村的拒絕附屬因此我們又進行修憲不是我們是那時候國民黨主導的修憲又把這個針對人事案的附屬權拿掉部分針對人事案的附屬權把它拿掉就是因為好柏村拒絕附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7327.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7351.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
拿掉但是他沒有把整個附屬權拿掉他其他的附屬法律案的附屬權他依然保留在憲法裡面這個是什麼這個是憲法有意的沉默他拿掉了人事同意人事的附屬權獨留法律案的附屬權表示這個附屬權是存在而且有價值有意義的在在徵修條文修憲之後的體制依然是重要的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7353.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7374.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以我們今天爭論的意思就是說附屬權到底是一個義務中華民國法律通過之後你就一定要附屬就一定要公佈這是一種看法這就是你們今天國民黨跟民眾黨的看法另外一個看法認為附屬權不是它是一個權利它是一個行政院長的權限所以它會規定在憲法裡面那 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7379.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7401.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個東西有爭議理論上那到底他可不可以不附屬理論上這樣子的憲政爭議應該由誰來做最後的判定他到底可不可以其實是憲法法院照體制走就是憲法法院剛大家都講說憲法法院才有終極判決的理由剛才大家這麼多人在那邊講說賴清德違憲賴清德明顯違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7404.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7430.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那你們也沒有權利講賴清德違憲只有憲法法院可以說賴清德違憲但是我們中華民國這部體制經過七次修憲拼裝之後本來雖然不好騎但是也是一台滿好騎還是可以走的腳踏車結果有兩個惡棍一個叫國民黨一個叫民眾黨拿一根鐵棍從車輪插進去這腳踏車翻車了這根鐵棍是什麼就是憲法訴訟法癱瘓憲法法庭因為國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7434.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7458.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
民眾黨癱瘓的憲法法庭使得現在所有的這些憲政爭議你通通變成沒有得到最終終局解決的可能性剛才所有學者我看張其祿教授是我很好的朋友他講得很有道理他說現在的這個總統制這個是憲法制度是有問題的這樣子的設計他大概整篇都講我們憲法制度有很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7460.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7484.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
憲法制度有很大的問題所以要罷免總統所以要彈劾總統這個是什麼邏輯因為我們的憲法制度設計有問題所以我們要來彈劾賴清德我在這裡講這麼多但是最重要是我們要回歸到最後憲政體制的設計在場都是學者大家也都是在教人子弟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7485.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7509.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
都是在教人子弟的有關於憲法這樣子相關的權限我剛剛所講的通通都是就是權力制衡check and balance裡面附屬權到底是不是一個行政權對立法權的一個制衡的權利也許憲政上有爭議但是終局應該是被你們癱瘓的憲法法庭好 謝謝沈委員下一位我們請王玉敏委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7511.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7538.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主席各位委員各位媒體朋友各位專家學者大家好我想今天我們是在寫歷史為什麼這麼說在立法院我們是第一次針對彈劾總統這樣的一個案子來召開公聽會我相信都沒有人參加過大家都是第一次那為什麼會有這樣子歷史上的第一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7539.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7542.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
立法院必須提出彈劾總統這樣的一個彈劾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7544.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7569.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
因為賴清德總統是無前例的不公布由立法院通過的法律案這個是中華民國我們民選總統以來從來沒有一個總統做到這件事情而賴清德公然違反了憲法的義務跟責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7570.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7587.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
他竟然可以用不公布立法院三讀通過的法律這就是明顯的違憲所以這樣的一個史無前例讓我們必須召開公聽會今天有這樣的一個彈劾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7588.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7617.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那這樣的一個史無前例我覺得賴清德總統沒有擔當敢做而不敢當剛剛有包括學者或者是委員說為什麼對象不是針對卓榮泰要針對賴清德我讓大家來複習一下為什麼今天彈劾的對象是賴清德總統在立法院通過的才化法這個我讓大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7619.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7634.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
還原一下那個順序在立法院通過的財政收支劃分法這個行政院他有提出復議他是在114年12月5號立法院投票表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7636.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7654.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
就是維持原案所以他的復議案並沒有通過按照憲法徵修條文第三條明定復議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院院長應即接受該決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7656.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7671.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
而總統更需要依中華民國憲法第72條規定立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統英語收到後10日內公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7674.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7690.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這些憲法明文規定的文字如果按照憲法來12月5號立法院已經否決了行政院的復議案總統按照規定應該要在114年12月15號公佈實施結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7696.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7718.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
媒體都有報導12月12號總統主動找了民進黨的立委進行了一場便當會他選擇在應該12月15號公佈之前匆匆忙忙就召開了一場便當會然後這一場便當會 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7719.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7733.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
召開完之後他就對外宣布就是採取不附屬或附屬之後不執行這不是公然下指導棋什麼才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7734.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7749.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們看到了總統公然的去找了民進黨的立委來召開這場會議定調了不附屬結果從昨天的專家學者或是民進黨的委員都說你們應該要找卓榮泰 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7751.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7776.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
冤有頭債有主啊敢做不敢當賴清德總統公然找了民進黨的委員召開了這場會議而且強硬劃壓如果大家有印象的話當時柯建民總召我們佩服他他還是在專業方面是比較深厚的比較有法學素養的他認為萬萬不可但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7777.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7789.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
很難獨排眾議所以這個卓榮泰就照單全收請問今天我們提出這樣的彈劾案對象是總統真的沒有道理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7791.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7809.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
真的沒有道理嗎所以我希望民進黨的委員不用再繼續護航賴總統既然敢做就敢當完完全全都是他下令的嘛所以今天民進黨有很多的委員說哎呀你們就是提倒閣啊倒閣有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7810.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7839.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
今天走了一個卓榮泰不會來一個鄭麗君嗎或來一個潘孟安嗎那他們要不要聽命賴清德總統的命令當然要啊在我們現在的憲政架構底下我們的行政院院長充其量就是總統的執行長而已我們不是真正的內閣制我們現在的卓榮泰院長他並沒有來自民意的基礎跟權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7840.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7858.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那請問一個行政院院長可以針對立法院最高的民意機構我們所通過的法令他可以不附屬嗎他可以不附屬來架空立法院嗎請問他的權力基礎來自於哪裡不是內閣制的首長哪來那麼大的一個權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7864.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7892.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
所以你不覺得這件事情非常的荒謬嗎如果一個行政院院長可以任意的用不附屬來架控立法院通過的法令那請問陳水扁時期也是嘲笑也大他當時所任命的行政院院長我相信他對於立法院所做的決議他可能也不見得百分之百的認同或者是接受但是他們都守住了 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7893.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7912.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
憲法跟法律的底線我們是五權分立的國家一個行政院院長目前我們的憲法賦予他的就是你不同意的時候你就提起復議但是復議失敗之後憲法明文規定你就是必須要遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7913.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7938.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個才是我們民主法治應該要維持的一個最好的一個框架跟架構吧所以真的是制度完全出了問題嗎我今天在公聽會我要說恐怕是人出了問題如果過去陳水扁總統在嘲笑野大的時候我們也沒有看到他發動大罷免針對在野黨所有的區域委員一律罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7939.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7963.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們也沒有看到陳水扁總統他對於立法院通過的法令竟然可以進行不公佈那這是人的問題還是是制度的問題我必須說賴清德總統他在法治的觀念上面出了非常大的一個問題過去他擔任市長的時候就可以因為不認同這個議會的議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7966.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7982.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
他就不履行一個市長到議會去接受備詢接受議會監督這樣的一個做法而遭到了監察院的彈劾那他今天作為國家的元首故態覆名又來了一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7983.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8004.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
他今天竟然可以違反憲法針對立法院通過的法律案他要求卓榮泰不附屬然後還裝模作樣變成說不是我不公佈是因為他不附屬所以我才不能公佈這個也未免太惺惺作態了要敢做敢當 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8006.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8027.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
最後我要提出來的是我們不允許中華民國邁向民主獨裁我們不允許我們好不容易創建的民主法治的體制竟然可以在賴清德擔任總統的時候他可以用個人的意志就要來做這個扭曲跟破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8029.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8046.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
美國的開國元勳、美國憲法之父James Madison他在聯邦黨的人文集第47篇他有特別指出當立法權、行政權和司法權集中於一人之手我們都可以恰當地稱為這是保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8048.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8074.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
而目前我們看到的賴清德總統他試圖要架空立法院的立法權他用司法去迫害政敵他現在在這個大法官的部分不提名不履行他的總統的職責而且用五個大法官就要來做釋憲這個都是在在的違反了民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8075.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8090.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
迫害了我們的法治最後我要講的是在憲政之上沒有人可以領價在民主之前也沒有旁觀者所以今天我們都在寫歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8091.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8117.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
對一個違法濫權的總統我們一定要留下記錄而很多人都說這一個彈劾案根本不會通過重點是在這個過程我們要讓全國的民眾了解而我也套用柯總召的一句話他常常說起義來歸我想民進黨裡面的委員如果想要繼續守護我們的憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8118.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8134.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
最終我們在投票的時候我們也希望呼應有志之士希望守護中華民國憲政與法治的民進黨委員可以起義來歸以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來請吳斯亞委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8136.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8147.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
謝謝大會主席謝謝今天參與的立委同仁以及學者專家們我就扣合著王育民委員剛剛所說的立法院正在寫歷史這是台灣史上第一次的彈劾總統案 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8149.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8174.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那麼我們就要負責任的寫下好的歷史對的歷史而不是無法對後代交代無法對歷史交代並不是賴清德總統違憲亂政而是我們有了史上前所未有惡上加惡的立法院我同意王玉民委員說的現在的憲政僵局問題在人沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8175.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8196.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因为我们有了一再的违反宪法宪政机关平等相违原则一再的认为国会优位立院最大的在野党的立委们这些人才是真正出了问题的核心那下一页我其实不想提但我必须提早在这一届国会还未组成 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8197.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8222.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
正在即將組成的2024年2月1號前習近平已經下達指示拿下台灣戰場就在立法院我們來看看習近平國台辦頒布的佔領台灣立法院制高點的統戰戰略要點裡頭的幾項目標工作是不是就是台灣現在國會的社會進行式包括來癱瘓台灣的國防自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8223.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8248.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
包括用國會濫權來提出國會的調查權要求總統的質詢權要求總統到立院備詢不也正是現在彈劾案的現在進行式嗎包括習近平所指示的讓九二共識成為國會統戰互動的最高原則那我們來看看這不就是現在鄭麗文的所作所為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8250.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8275.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以說呢不是台灣社會在關心總統彈劾恐怕對岸也有相當高度的關切為什麼呢下一頁當我們看到蔡正元 邱毅 郭正亮發起的彈劾賴清德總統的連署網站然後快速的被踢爆這個網站造假甚至一度暴增到高達14億人14億人來同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8279.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8305.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
弹劾赖清德总统那这样一个假网站就搭配着认知作战他的协力者就有这些发起联署的人有台湾的红媒有中国的官媒一套剧本一条龙的操作连弹劾总统都大搞认知作战煽动人民仇恨政府我们再看下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8306.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8319.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
國台辦果不其然很快速的紅藍白口徑一致都要求彈劾賴清德如果在野黨的委員要撇清反對這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8321.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8336.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
作為那為什麼自己自甘成為工具人為什麼自己讓自己跟中國的操作畫上了等號呢下一頁我們來看真實的民意喔民進黨的民調67%支持國會先審預算先顧民生 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8340.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8359.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
而不支持大搞彈劾你不相信民進黨的民調沒有關係我們看看一平新聞的民調也高達74%反對彈劾賴清德總統更也可以參考鄭傳媒委託山水民調公司的高達45%是不贊成彈劾總統的所以說下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8360.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8384.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
藍白所提的彈劾總統的三大謬誤就是欲加之罪何患無辭從把賴總統冠上獨裁總統或是毀憲亂政的罪名都是莫須有強加人於罪所以這是欲加之罪何患無辭的彈劾這也是畫錯重點搞錯方向的彈劾如果要追究總統的政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8386.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8403.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
請去勇敢的倒閣吧難道在野黨害怕民意的最終仲裁嗎而如果要藉由彈劾來要求邀請賴清德總統列席立法院那麼何必捨盡求遠就去走符合憲法規範的國情報告不就得了嗎第三這也是虛張聲勢自我催眠的假彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8411.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8435.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
因为蓝白没有三分之二的利润席次而宪法法庭也被你们瘫痪被你们摧毁你们都知道这是一个弹劾不成的弹劾案下一页我们来看看刚审发会委员针对这个天下奇闻大家一起共赏就是蓝白所提的发动弹劾总统案的案由 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8437.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8461.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你们一再讲几个关键字就是赖清德是独裁总统你们一再说赖清德是违宪乱政的总统在场也有我台大政研所的老师彭女彭老师无爱无师无更爱真理刚刚彭老师所说的赖清德是违宪的总统赖清德是违宪惯犯的总统不好意思无爱无师无更爱真理 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8462.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8486.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
賴清德總統是一個維護憲法的總統而藍白主導的立法院才是違憲上癮的立法院看看如果台灣有獨裁總統我們能夠讓在野黨的委員依循憲法的機制在立法院搞彈劾在立法院舉辦公聽會一再地羞辱總統做出這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8487.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8506.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
毫無事實依據的這些政治攻擊如果台灣是獨裁的國家何以能夠在立院發動彈劾呢所以就足以證明我們今天在這裡的進行的公聽會台灣並不是獨裁國家更沒有獨裁總統下一頁而 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8506.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8518.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
沒有獨裁總統 只有獨裁國會這些近乎二讀 不經討論協商過水 黑箱表決的議案才是獨裁國會的本質 下一頁而 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8519.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8546.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
前所未見藍白真的寫下了台灣的歷史兩年有八個議案被申請釋憲中其中兩案已經被宣判違憲誰違憲亂證正是藍白主導的立法院兩年八個法案涉及違憲憲法法庭正在審議當中而兩案已經被宣判違憲下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8547.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8569.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我们更要说除了今天的弹劾总统案在野党以近乎二读以立院决议的方式谴责大法官宣判宪判无效的这一个提案违反了宪法78条违反了宪法诉讼法38条更违反释字185号的解释谁在违宪乱政 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8570.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8596.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
就是这种提案下一页谁在违宪乱政在野党甚至要用公投法来凌驾宪法要用公投来推翻宪判我们在场这么多学者专家法律不能凌驾宪法这是所有学法律学政治的基本ABC所以谁在违宪乱政呢是立法院自证其罪下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8598.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8610.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
而在提案要求彈劾總統的理由裡頭剛剛一直講到大罷免國民黨你們要確定大罷免是人民發動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8611.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8630.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
真正發動大惡霸的是貴黨國民黨而坐在這裡的吳思瑤就是現在全台灣真的是被寫下歷史偽造連署高達2674份全台灣從以前到現在偽造連署死亡連署高達94%這一個驚人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8635.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8648.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
歷史記錄我真的很遺憾是記錄在吳思瑤身上因為國民黨要搞大惡霸是你們用違法的方式你們要大惡霸沒搞成而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8650.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8679.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
人民依據憲法提起罷免的權利就如同今天在野黨的委員依據憲法提起彈劾總統一樣都是依據憲法那為什麼立法院可以人民不能夠行使他的罷免的基本公民權呢不要兩套標準而事實上國民黨才是發動大惡霸的元首只是你們沒有成功而已我就是當事人我也是受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8680.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8696.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
至于法案不附属到底有没有构成弹劾总统的正当理由呢不管我们在场的陈一凯律师陈一凯教授有非常多的发表的意见我们也来看看陈一前教授所说的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8697.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8720.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
行政院長行使憲法賦予的正當防衛權利怎麼會構成彈劾總統的理由呢羅承宗教授所說林佳和教授所說下一頁甚至許志雄大法官所說的行政院長的不附屬是阻止違憲法案的公佈實行那你要追究行政院長的政治責任再說一次 那你就去倒閣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8721.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8734.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那陳怡凱教授謝謝兩天給我們非常精彩多多的論述我就不再贅述了所以呢法案不附屬並不構成彈劾總統的合理合憲的理由最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8735.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8759.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
要藉由大搞彈劾來羞辱總統在立法院搭建出一個可以羞辱總統政治表演的舞台倒數會期末的十一天為什麼不審預算不審軍購至民生於何處至國安於何處呢好 最後時間我30秒收數這一本是周萬來秘書長寫的書 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8761.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8780.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
非常清楚針對總統的國情報告只要合憲合規總統願意來他多次表達而周萬來秘書長過去的著作就清楚的說明了國會進行國情報告是得邀請而不是應邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8782.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8798.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
而急問急答並不是憲法賦予立法院的權利因為對立法院負責的是行政院長不是總統下一頁好謝謝好最後一個我收束一下如果說要邀請賴總統來國請報告請合憲合規 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8802.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8826.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
因為過去針對違憲的急問急答的方式馬英九總統 王金平院長都說過萬萬不可不要讓台灣的憲政秩序而整個被大開民主的倒車我以這個頁面來收束過去馬英九怎麼說 王金平怎麼說現在的藍白委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8827.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8840.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
请不要一再的写下错误的历史写下负面的历史中华民国的国会不能够让恶例成为惯例好 谢谢谢谢吴委员下一位请王洪委员发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8849.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8861.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
好 謝謝主席以及來參加的學者專家以及現場的各位委員還有網路前面的朋友 大家好我想今天是非常重要的一個歷史時刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8863.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8890.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們今天面臨了中華民國第一次史上由立法院所提出來的總統彈劾案其實我們心情是非常沉重的就如同剛才很多的先進所講的按照我們現在的這個憲政體制要讓總統彈劾成功事實上它的難度確實非常高不要說現在立法院沒有三分之二的在野席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8890.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8918.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
而且还要经过宪法法庭而最近宪法法庭的表现我们几乎可以确定那么其实就已经如同赖总统的靳远靳卫军一样的但是我们必须去写下历史因为当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8919.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8930.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我想以下我要講一下我們現在為何要彈劾賴清德總統因為他確實一步一步的走向彈劾之路 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8931.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8950.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
首先在去年發起的大罷免剛才民進黨的委員都說這是人民發起的啊可是這是由民進黨黨團總召柯建民總召他對外公開的說在整個大罷免過程裡面賴總統每個禮拜都聽取報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8954.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8976.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
他完全掌控请问一下这是一个完全由人民由下而上所发起的大罢免吗不要自欺欺人人民不是笨蛋所以在去年32比0其实社会已经告诉你这样子一个由 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8978.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8994.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
總統所發起的這樣的一個大罷免浪費社會資源造成社會對立大家已經告訴你最新的民意可是請問一下賴總統他有因此而節制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8996.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9018.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以我必须要说刚才吴思瑶委员也说现在最主要的问题是人出了问题这个人是在立法院的人出了问题他当然指的是在野党的立委可是人民不是告诉你了吗32比0大罢免大失败到底是谁出问题呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9019.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9042.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
为什么我们赖总统即便经过这样的一个教训和洗礼人民这样的意志这么清楚地告诉你你仍然不懂节制呢另外行政权独裁拒绝依法行政我们特别一直在讲在过去 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9043.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9069.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
再怎麼獨裁總統再怎麼專權但是不可能容許在立法院已經完備程序通過的法律我們竟然在行政部門拒絕執行在去年我們通過了對於第一線前線軍人的加薪案 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9070.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9091.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們也通過了退休景銷的所得替代率提高但是在今年度的總預算裡面行政院拒絕編列這是一個經過行政院長附屬以及總統公佈實施的法律但是竟然可以不執行剛才吳思耀 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9093.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9118.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
委員也刻意的再把這一次的彈劾案去故意去牽扯好像這事又是中共的在地協力者這樣的話術這樣的帶風向這樣的抹紅抹黑不就是去年大罷免的重現嗎可是已經告訴你人民不吃這一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9119.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9146.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
另外我們所通過的法律案包含對於現在第一線我們的國軍官兵弟兄的加薪案請問一下我們提振我們軍人的士氣我們是中共的在地協力者嗎我們照顧我們的退休警消人員我們又變成了中共的在地協力者嗎這到底是什麼邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9148.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9174.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
欲加之罪何患無辭我必須說今天賴總統的悲哀呀就是在於他一再的用抗中移轉自己執政的無能一再用抗中來說用這樣合理化自己的一個獨裁的行為好我剛才講行政權的獨裁我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9176.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9185.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
这两天一直说你们找错对象了是行政院长不附属所以你们应该去弹劾的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9187.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9210.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個行政院長你們應該去提出這個不信任案當然他希望用倒閣的方式來進行所謂的大罷免2.08我們今天看到日本高市早苗首相他決定要解散國會重新選舉高市自己也會下來選啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9212.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9236.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以今天賴清德總統他坐在那邊受到這個憲政的保護竟然告訴我們你們去倒閣然後大家再重新選舉我直接說賴清德總統你如果下來跟我們一起選你這個才有正當性啊你在那邊說的是把人民當作三歲的小孩嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9238.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9265.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以我們在這邊為什麼特別提出我們不能一而再再而三的放任行政院拒絕實施立法院所通過的法律這是行政逾越了自己的權力的底線那我們當然很清楚知道這個真正的元兇當然不是卓榮泰而是賴清德總統另外司法權的獨裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9267.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9296.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
枉法裁判除了行政权之外赖总统已经把他的手伸向了司法我们这两天也有很多的论述我们的宪法法庭受到宪诉法的限制应该根本无权去开会好 他说我们新通过的宪诉法是违宪的必须十人以上才可以组成宪法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9297.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9313.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
但是我們就退一萬步來說也就是現在所採用的舊的限訴法憲法法庭的組成也要現有總額的三分之二起碼六名大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9314.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9329.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
所以我们在去年我们违法的宪法法庭去做成了114年宪判制第一号根本是无效判决而且是荒唐的一个判决 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9331.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9350.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
憲法法庭可以完全的違法作為司法最高機關也可以違法但是這後面又是賴總統後面的撐腰不是嗎也是賴總統的授意不是嗎所以這是一個司法權獨裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9353.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9372.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這樣子的一個作為其實跟最近被美國逮捕的委內瑞拉總統馬杜洛他就是因為國會他沒有辦法掌握多數所以他把他的親信放在他最高法院然後判決所有國會裡面通過的法律通過的預算全部無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9374.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9397.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以今天我們能讓台灣委內瑞拉化嗎可以讓司法權獨裁整個的一樣愉悅踐踏了立法權嗎而且最好笑的是賴總統竟然會說出一個現在叫做在野獨裁真的是全球獨步啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9398.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9420.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
全世界的民主憲政的專家都應該向賴總統請教請問一下 我們現在的總統除了立法院之外掌握了行政院 考試院 監察院還有最重要的是司法權請問一下 在野如何獨裁呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9421.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9438.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以今天我們一步一步走向這樣子的行政獨裁,再也獨裁。我們如果可以縱容,我們如果沉默,我們會眼睜睜看著台灣要走向變成委內瑞拉嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9440.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9465.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們要讓賴清德會朝向韓國的前總統尹錫悅一樣走向一個獨裁之路嗎所以今天我們在歷史上必須留下見證當獨裁成為事實彈劾就是我們的責任謝謝好 謝謝王宏林委員接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9469.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9473.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
還有線上的好朋友今天聽整個會議對面的學者專家講的這個內容我最欽佩的就是張祺祿教授他這樣開宗明義的說今天這是一個制度的討論一個制度的討論因為這制度上的某種的設計今天要辦這個公聽會後面還要討論用國語好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9507.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9515.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那個 我想我們就彼此尊重好不好來 繼續你那個什麼意思 主席那個什麼意思來 請繼續發言 沒關係我用什麼話講是我的管理啦你如果聽不到 聽不到去找翻譯啦莫名其妙 我講我的話你就是不懂 亂說什麼意思啊對面啦 這些學者專家今天每一個人講的話 理事長都會記錄啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9536.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9543.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
張祺祿教授講制度討論,這我非常贊成張祺祿教授講完後,後面幾個教授講的,我也非常認同當然也有人抄斷,抄斷說什麼大法官是什麼,他設計,我聽你的父母那又叫你設計,說一個沒辦法查證的東西,還抄斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9561.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9572.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以請不要立法委員不要亂講話那個都有國民大會的記錄等一下我們會有回應時間好不好學者專家這邊我們待會有30分鐘的回應時間現在我們就請委員繼續發言你跟我說我也沒什麼意見來 王委員請繼續發言怎麼會這樣啊請學者專家才會沒問題好 來 我們繼續發言 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9590.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9598.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
今天這是一個制度的討論 現在是行政院對立法院通過的法律跟自愛人行申請這個復議 說什麼復議沒過就沒了啊復議沒過 接著是說你不可以再復議 你當然也不能去申請釋憲啊你當然現在要規定 行政院一定有一個復甦的權利啊不然你就把復甦的權利給掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9620.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9631.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
不然就來修憲啊 把他骨頭劈掉啊行政院長不復甦 現場裡面就說他要復甦 須復甦須復甦就是可以復甦 也可以不要復甦啊不然他骨頭劈掉啊 連這個也要廢這廢好 這廢可以 這就是制度的討論不是個人的討論我告訴你 現在這樣你如果不開心 不開心你就把這個行政議長給他上彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9649.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9664.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我不知道你們不應該把行政議長刪除因為彈劾的權利是乾淨的你們就必不可保你說我沒有把這個行政議長我沒有來把這個不信任我們不信任我們一定會過你們如果不愛你們也不愛因為不信任我們之後就全部定選你們也不愛這道理大家都說很久了後來你們就想到一招說要來彈劾總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9678.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9689.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
還要來彈劾總統 要彈劾總統也沒問題這是立法院的管理 連署裡面理由有在寧下彈劾總統裡面還有一個理由說因為台積電要去美國 這條可以彈劾總統這條可以彈劾總統 理由有在寧下 反正倒霉就是來投票來標判 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9702.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9721.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
要投票 要表決 也很簡單啊 公共的就開始來投票不是 你們很厲害 世界創五個月還要下降 還要辦20多張 用國家的資源在拚你們的選舉我怎麼聽得到 怎麼看得到你們20多個官司 那就是你們的好選人還要去辦的時候 就要去做幾套的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9728.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9735.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
用國家的資源在拼你們的選舉要拖到五月還要投票要投票就這兩天半班的就來投票不需要這樣拖 簡單說你們就是要亂了你們就是要亂了你們現在幾天也都說了 國民黨的台獨也這樣說了這就不會過 你們也知道不會過可是要繞記錄 不過要繞記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9757.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9766.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
不過規定很重要,為什麼?因為你後來擺設計兩天,說要叫總統來,要來這裡補酒,要來這裡吞喝,要來這裡拍攝,要把它撈開,就這樣而已,你們有其他目的嗎?沒有啊,你們就是要這樣而已,台灣人有沒有看過,你們就這樣,大家說整套的,說到嘴巴全破,目的一個,就是要有熱情的拍攝, |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9787.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9793.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
要給總統批判正常的行為的定數不要走不信任我們這個處理行政議長你也不要那有千千萬萬個喬龍泰 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9799.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9804.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
制度的設計 如果制度的設計 你們覺得不開心制度的設計 你們覺得不高興就來修憲 如果修很多條就整期不要修憲 要衝一波新的也可以對不對 你們這樣一直拖一直拖讓你們在這裡講話 我看就想說你們的全國行為就很趣味 用國家的錢去煉煉味 煉這個熱情滴 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9829.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9830.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這樣要說這要跟人家彈劾,我是不知道說臨江這個特政帝的、特法律的教科書裡面,要記錄這條,記錄這條彈劾,發起彈劾的政黨說,我也知道不會過,發起一個知道不會過的彈劾,這叫做教科書要怎麼寫。 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9852.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9865.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這教科書要對米也很多法律的專家啦 政敵的專家啦人家你敢說什麼什麼說中華民國在思想 台灣在思想在野黨發動一下 要通過彈劾這是要怎麼解釋 解釋法行廳說我們就是法醫了 怎麼樣我們就是要創大清廳了 怎麼樣難道是這樣來解釋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9882.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9884.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以今天這個公聽會,我聽到教授說的真的有道理,有的要抄斷,有的意識形態太狂,還有人怕不到會議席,對於中道委, |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9900.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9906.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
叫我們今天主題無關的阿媽大講十分鐘 你是去吃了黃國昌的水嗎黃國昌這順序來就沒有在教主題今天在討論的是彈劾賴清德的公聽會講一講就叫今天節目都無關的阿媽大這樣講 不知道對一個政黨推薦的所以最後 簡單結論今天這個公聽會辦了 我是建議這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9927.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9931.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
要投票 要標高 要彈劾賴清德 金融用的反正就不會過你們要拖 為了你們個人政黨的選舉要全國行為 用國家的錢辦這個選舉實在是沒意思啦 以上好 謝謝我們的黃委員接下來我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9951.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9980.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
主席各位學者專家各位委員還有準備離場的王逸川委員大家好接下來我要發表一篇非常重要的彈劾宣言重量級的彈劾宣言我希望尤其民進黨的委員能夠豎起耳朵聽清楚非常重要非常重要有一點長要花一點時間我把這個彈劾宣言念完 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9981.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10009.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
作为国家领导人没有能力解决国家的问题对人民痛苦毫无感觉已经是严重的失职他发动政治斗争不仅粗暴蛮干无视法纪更对民主宪政缺乏起码的尊重毁宪乱政逾越总统的宪法分纪 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10010.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10032.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
操控司法掩護行政也介入國會事務這是嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構總統一人獨大引起政局動盪民心不安也讓台灣陷入嚴重的憲政危機讓民主法治受到專政的威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10034.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10051.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機遏止總統違憲擴權的行為我們在立法院發動對總統的彈劾案理由有四第一 依照分權制衡的憲政原理 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10052.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10065.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
國會是總統的監督機關,對於總統侵犯立法權的行為,國會有必要採取積極行動,捍衛國會的尊嚴,以及伸張憲政上的權益。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10067.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10096.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
第二,依照宪法规定,总统违法乱纪的行为是透过弹劾来制衡。此次总统的行为涉及侵犯宪政秩序,理应透过发动弹劾的宪政行动来反制。第三,依照立法院职权行使法,总统弹劾案经立法委员二分之一的连述提议,即交程序委员会编列议程提报院会。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10098.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10111.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
不經討論及交全院委員會審查在審查時得邀請總統列席說明透過總統必須親自面對國會此一程序可充分彰顯國會是總統的憲政監督機關角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10116.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10134.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
不容总统反过来践踏立法权第四弹劾案与表决时是以无记名方式进行相当程度可让立法委员的意志免于总统瑕疵有利国会自主意志的呈现 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10135.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10154.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們要嚴肅呼籲總統當立法院發動彈劾案時應該坦蕩接受國會的檢驗如果認為自己並無違憲行為請不要把手伸進立法院不能透過黨紀要求立法院黨團阻擋彈劾案同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10156.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10174.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
也要呼籲不分黨派所有立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上請一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案讓總統到立法院接受檢驗用憲法上的藥來治憲政的亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10177.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10199.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這是2013年9月14號民進黨前主席蘇貞昌的彈劾宣言夠重量級吧字字句句穿透賴清德總統的心臟只要把他這個總統他說的是馬英九換成賴清德完全完美的貼合貼線這就是民進黨嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10203.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10227.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這是蘇貞昌的彈劾賴清澤總統宣言嘛預言家來來來我今天不是以羅志強身份坐在這個地方我是以蘇貞昌的身份坐在這個地方我幫蘇貞昌來說文解字他這麼偉大重量級名流輕始的彈劾宣言幫他重量級的說文解字一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10228.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10252.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
蘇貞昌說作為國家領導人沒有能力解決國家問題對人民痛苦毫無感覺嚴重失職說的就是賴清德蘇貞昌說他發動政治鬥爭粗暴蠻幹無視法紀對民主憲政缺乏尊重說的就是發動大惡霸政治鬥爭在野黨的賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10256.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10272.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
蘇貞昌說毀憲亂政逾越總統憲法分際操縱司法掩護行政說的就是賴清德今天把大法官會議搞成仇安會五人仇安會違反所謂的憲政倫理 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10274.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10293.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
大法官之前自己都说死刑判决要一字决就这五位仇安会大法官可以直接把三个跟他不同意见的大法官直接名单剔除消音然后说我五个人说了算你之前死刑判决才说一字决 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10294.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10321.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
就是賴清德操控司法掩護行政蘇貞昌罵得太好了總統一人獨大民心不安侵犯三權分立的憲政架構蘇貞昌說也是在罵賴清德不附屬不執行不公佈整個毀憲亂政不就是蘇貞昌口中嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10323.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10345.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
蘇貞昌說為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機所以要遏止違憲擴權的行為要在立法院發動對總統彈劾有四大理由蘇貞昌四大理由我來把蘇貞昌四大理由再說文解釋一下蘇貞昌說依照分權制衡憲政原理國會是總統的監督機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10348.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10369.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
對於總統侵犯立法權的行為國會有必要採取積極行動這是為什麼今天我們國會要提出對賴清德的彈劾案完全遵從蘇貞昌的指示啊第二個蘇貞昌說依照憲法規定總統違法亂進行為要透過彈劾來 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10375.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10401.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
而總統的行為侵犯憲法秩序就要用彈劾的憲政行動來反制我們也是秉照蘇貞昌的主張用憲政行動來反制今天賴清德的毀憲亂政蘇貞昌說的第三個理由要邀請總統列席說明總統必須親自面對國會此一程序所以拜託賴清德總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10404.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10429.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
下個禮拜邀請賴總統來立法院到會說明不要讓蘇貞昌失望應立法院的邀來國會來跟人民說明你種種毀憲亂政的行為辯護一下歡迎他來辯護一下蘇貞昌說第四點理由也非常好彈劾是無記名 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10430.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10458.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我們應該讓立法委員的意志免於總統瑕疵所以有利國會自主所以呼籲不要把手伸進立法院也不要透過黨紀來約束民進黨的立法委員阻擋彈劾案賴總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話公開宣布歡迎民進黨的立委撥亂反正加入彈劾賴清德總統的行列 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10459.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10488.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
蘇貞昌說他要呼籲不分黨派的立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案要請總統到立法院接受檢驗蘇貞昌說用憲法上的藥來治憲政上的亂就讓我們用彈劾來治今天賴清德總統在憲政上的作亂最後我要說的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10489.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10510.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
今天我們可以看到一個只獲得40%雙少數的賴清德總統他當選時候說行政立法協調合作共同推動國政但他說一套做一套在他任期這一年半的期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10512.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10539.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
親自發動大惡霸政治鬥爭請全部的力量動用司法清算在野黨的主席然後搜索清算在野黨的黨部然後他又同時把手伸進司法搞出了五人華天下大機制五人大法官籌安會來為他的今天的毀憲亂政做遮羞補 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10541.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10552.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
他創立了不附屬不公佈不執行的憲政首要惡例來侵犯立法權政要總統不彈劾他彈劾誰 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員我們現在審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10560.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10578.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
小組委員的詢問都已經發言完畢現在要進行最後一個程序請學者專家針對剛才審查小組委員的詢問提出綜合答覆每位三分鐘首先請張祺祿教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10580.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10608.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
謝謝副院長還有各位委員那我想其實今天聽了大家的這個所有的這個發言其實大家更可以知道一件事就是知道我們現在這個制度有多麼的荒唐多麼的荒謬我必須直說啦台灣的這種所謂半總統制那其實他是先天不良後天又失調我也必須直接說啦今天我們在座所有人的發言我希望大家都把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10608.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10628.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
牢記於心為什麼因為哪一天不要換了這個位置你就會發現你真的會被打臉其實剛才我覺得羅委員談出來的這個非常的棒其實今天我覺得我們每一位各黨派的這個發言其實你真的要仔細想看因為哪一天也許你就會換了那個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10630.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10654.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以今天才真正的我也必須直說啦今天如果簡短來講當然我想在執政黨當然一直在這個必須作為一個護航那但是你要仔細想想看今天如果今天是在野今天的總統如果是國民黨在做是民眾黨在做那也可以容許發生這些事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10655.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10674.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
也可以這樣幹嗎所以我覺得這才是真實的問題所以我一直在強調說這個制度的面其實坦白說我們要把一個總統制跟一個議會內閣制混在一起本身就已經出了大問題了因為我們的總統就是有權但是他沒有任何的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10676.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10698.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是行政院長就是有無限責任但是沒有權所以今天當然我想執政黨方面一直說不然你們就來彈劾這個行政院長可是說實話也沒有什麼真的實質的意義啦那當然不要說現在這個彈劾制度了那另外的話那雖然說用倒閣的方式可是這個倒了我剛才其實在我的發言也講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10698.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10724.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
其實總統是可以直接再任命他一次的都可以的所以事實上這是就是無解我現在已經必須一直強調我們現在就是真實的無解那坦白說離台灣制度最接近的其實是像法國的這種雙手掌制其實是以我們目前來看這也就是為什麼之前我想民眾黨柯文哲前主席也談過為什麼這個聯合政府的這個概念必須被談出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10725.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10750.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
因為事實上法國就常常面臨這種狀況你怎麼管理分裂管理衝突那你怎麼去做好這件事情我們其實今天還是站在國家的立場我們希望國家的制度能長持久安能走下去而不是誰奪到了這個總統大位的權利都搞成獨裁我覺得這才是我們今天台灣真正所有的民眾要必須想清楚的今天我們如果你放任的是民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10752.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10769.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
可以繼續這樣子玩下去可是你知道哪一天萬一又換上別人執政的時候是不是你也容忍所以今天我覺得憑著良心來說話所有都是應該回到制度來看謝謝張教授下一位我們請陳怡凱教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10771.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10796.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
主席 各位委員 各位在座來賓 大家好我們綜合一下剛剛幾位委員的發言包括王洪威委員有提到說在野黨獨裁是認為說這是不可能的世界上是不可能的事實上國會的多數利用多數來造成獨裁這是有這種例子的2015年波蘭的國會它是由一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10798.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10814.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
法律与正义党就是PIS党他取得国会多数然后他也是利用这个方式来修改他们的波兰宪法法院法但是波兰宪法法院还是把这个新修改的波兰宪法法院法判决违宪无效他也跟他的反应呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10815.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10834.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個PIS黨的反應就跟我們目前的這個藍白議員的反應是一模一樣的就自己就宣告這個判決是無效的憲法法院的判決無效因為呢憲法法院自己宣告波蘭憲法法院法是無效的那因此呢這裡所造成的這裡的獨裁呢已經經過這個歐盟的執委會呢發動調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10836.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10860.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後認為說波蘭它違反了法治國的原則然後以及後續的PIS黨又陸續的制定了最高法院法還有國家司法委員會法通通安排自己的人去當法官這裡也被歐洲人權法院跟歐盟法院宣告這裡是違反司法獨立的所以這裡都是可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10860.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10874.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那我們在說我國到底是什麼制度呢我們不是我說了算或是我們必須要硬套哪一個國家的總統制、內閣制而是由我國的大法官他自己說特別是在613號解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10877.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10899.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
林子儀大法官在這個部分協同意見書他已經講了目前的這個權力分立與制衡不是形式主義的那種所謂的國會專門就是在立法而不是行政那行政專門是在行政而不是立法並沒有這樣的一個形式主義而是兩個數個國家機關要一起合作的那在這個理解之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10902.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10911.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
就是說我們退回復翼以及被國會議員又維持原案在這裡必須是兩個機關的一起的合作那麼在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10915.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10933.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
對不起 這個委員他已經說那麼這樣退回復翼它是什麼意思這個意思就是形成僵局那這個僵局就是要由是不是你要發動這個倒閣來解決這個僵局那你如果沒有發動倒閣的話呢這個僵局那仍然是在的那因此這必須要兩個的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10934.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10961.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那也不能自居於說國會的多數那就變成行政院都必須就只能遵守那只能去附屬那總統就只能公佈並沒有這樣一個法理那必須比如說民進黨他在國會議員他雖然是他至少還有五十一席那五十一席你不能說他的名義通通不重要了一律通通必須要只能遵守好 謝謝好 謝謝陳教授接下來請張亞中教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10962.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10984.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
听了今天民进党的谈话其实非常失望我有几点想讲第一点造妖镜它的确没有办法灭妖但是可以造出妖的原型弹劾案它不是挪诈的三昧真火因此烧不到赖清德但是造妖镜可以造出赖清德违宪以及正向走向民选独裁的事实 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10986.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11013.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
從今天民進黨委員的發言來看這個造妖鏡不只造出賴清德民選獨裁的原型連民進黨立法委員的沒有是非只有立場知識有限良心不足的原型都造出來了我突然發現原來這些民進黨的參與者都是只會跟著主人叫的鸚鵡一群鸚鵡不思考不判斷只會重複賴清德以及民進黨中央做那些主人教的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11014.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11043.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
第二点今天所有民进党的发言都把不复属的不复属的责任推给卓荣泰这个对吗在经过多次修宪以后行政院长已经是总统的执行长叫国民党倒戈这对吗冤有头债有主如果赖清德不同意不复属行政院长敢吗赖清德自己可以换掉行政院长啊赖清德不是党主席吗卓荣泰不是党员吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11045.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11071.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
第三点民进党代表说现有的制度有问题显示赖清德并没有错如果要修正而非弹劾赖清德而是应该修改宪法我们大家要知道德国的威马宪法曾经号称全世界最完美的宪法但是也出现了纳粹的独裁我告诉各位世界上没有一个完美的宪法因此当权者的自治是非常必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11072.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11097.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
不是能不能而是该不该做这些事赖总统他不是赖章鱼啊各位章鱼是什么多出手非常善于传绕能够缝隙能够钻就钻能够穿就穿他用每一条出手钻进制度的黑色地带灰色地带所以说我们是赖总统你不是赖章鱼啊第四个民进党面对大罢免到目前还不知道悔改 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11099.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11127.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
罷免是人民的基本权益但是民进党把它操作成斗争的工具要改变立法院少数的结构赖清德主导是要消灭在野党的大罷免这是民选独裁的重要迹象第五点我必须要讲吴思瑶说无爱无私 吴更爱真理对自己的老师当然可以攻击但是吴的批评的理由只是太肤浅了因此我也要谴责彭景鹏教授怎么教出这种学生但是换个角度来看 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11129.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11143.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那位吳思耀委員只是維護他的意識形態跟政權而蒙蔽了他的良知吳委員充分地演繹了什麼是吳愛吳思吳更愛權力如果他今天不是民進黨的立委可能一切就恢復正常了 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11144.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11168.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
第六點 民進黨說民進黨代表說彈劾是中共的背後操作這真的可悲啊這永遠是民進黨的辯詞只要對自己不利就說是中共的陰謀第七點最後一點感想看到今天民進黨的表演我的感想台灣的民主真的是生病了謝謝大家好 謝謝張教授下一位我們請林俊宏律師好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11172.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11198.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我還是要先強調一個部分因為這個部分其實剛剛前面一直都有提到就是說這件事情本質上是憲政上的僵局是立法權跟行政權的僵局僵局的解決就要回到我們的憲政制度去解決所以我剛剛在前面有提到憲政制度是什麼已經有講過了今天我們在這邊討論我想要用一個更白話的情境來談我們現在碰到的狀況假設大家設想有一個職業球隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11201.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11224.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
總教練他要選秀他每年都要選秀今天球探部門來了一份球探的報告球員的調查報告這個總教練後來基於他個人的判斷他決定不要依照這個報告來選秀他就這樣去選秀了這個時候選完了之後球員很生氣就是說你這總教練你為什麼不按照球探報告去選秀後來球迷去告球團老闆說你背信 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11232.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11260.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
这件事情跟我们现在讲的我们坐在这边处理的事情很接近很接近第一件事情是你的职权对象搞错了选秀到底谁在选总教练在选那他选的好不好他是他的裁量你去告球团老板说你犯罪你背信了第二件事情性质搞错了选秀选的好不好这个是经营判断那他就是评价的问题那也就是政治责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11262.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11287.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那如果老闆沒有特別違法的狀況掏空球團或者是怎麼樣打假球的情形在這種狀況下你要去告老闆感覺上蠻奇怪的我們今天在這邊所處理的事情就是剛剛講的例子完全搞不清楚狀況我們試圖用法律責任的皮去包對於政治不爽的骨我們不只浪費我們寶貴的國家資源也在傷害我們的憲政體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11288.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11307.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
憲政體制不應該也不可以被降格為政治僵局底下的鬥爭工具如果我們對於我們現有的機制不滿意我們應該要誠實地面對我們的制度我們去討論修憲而不是在現行的框架底下玩這種標的錯誤邏輯不通的政治遊戲謝謝大家好 謝謝林律師下一位請彭錦鵬教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11316.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11342.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
第一點讓我看到剛剛王委員是多麼無知多麼無恥竟然敢挑戰我說的這個太難得了因為他根本不知道說大法官任期條款是我在國民大會擔任國大代表的時候我的提案我是領銜人我是設計者 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11344.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11369.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我還有當年吳耿老師的手稿我都可以公佈這是第一點第二點剛剛亞中兄突然來一筆說我沒有教好吳思瑤這也太過分了我總共只教過他兩門課而已一個是人事管理一個是行政管理沒有管到他的政治意識第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11374.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11391.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
剛剛齊璐兄已經講了非常多有關於我們憲法缺失的問題但是這些缺失的源頭都在於當年國民黨以為說還可以永續執政所以就不採用這個直選因為怕萬一直選總統的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11392.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11405.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那麼會有什麼不好的結果對於長期執政會有所不好最後選擇的是一個我們只有一輪投票其實總統制國家大概都是兩輪兩輪選舉產生過半數的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11410.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11436.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那我們修憲確實有必要但是也確實不可能我也曾經長久以來我都提出來說如果要修憲的話我們大概要採用的辦法是叫做國際標的方式我們去選出來成套的憲法修正案然後由立法院來選擇哪一個是最好然後才交由人民公投我仍然覺得這是一個可行的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11438.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11464.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
第三個是有關於大法官的提名套去民眾黨前黨主席柯文哲所講的其實一念之間奈親者總統如果一念之間會覺得說我們憲法是要保護的是要遵循的有這個義務的話他隨時可以在兩個月內提出適當的人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11465.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11490.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
当初我设计大法官任期条款的时候也都特别有叫做能够有一个复任的可能性虽然我们禁止了连任但是复任复任的意思就是像许忠利或者是汤德忠他们当过了但是过了一段时间以后他还是可以再续任的这没有问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11491.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11508.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以這完全看我們賴總統他願意不願意負責任的來互獻就這樣好 謝謝接下來我們請周威廷局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11512.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11531.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好 剛才有人 吳委員說台語 我也練幾句台語了這個委員說 南白委員是沒有補的 他想要彈劾一招但是我們要自己信任說 這是立法院的權利這人既然是立法院的權利 這就是補嗎 第一點 他說彈劾不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11535.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11543.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
這才是內政總統說的小說內政總統也說彈劾不好是浪費時間但是抱歉 動724 動823科建民主黨也信任 總統完全知道這也是一個不好的大罷免 32比0我們民進黨朋友說大罷免是大漏氣這不但是浪費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11565.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11589.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
還浪費了社會資本中選會說開到十五億總共合起來將近三十億這不是大氣味嗎接著我想針對我被批評說今天不知道跟彈劾有什麼關係其實我一開宗明義我就講了彈劾根據公務人員有沒有違法跟赤子我針對赤子我彈了違而不當當違而不違 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11592.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11621.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
不當而為所以我提出了警察人員人事條例三十五條的修正案來做例證甚至舉授軍人條例以及後來的教師以及公務人員的撫恤之前的條例跟辦法一再的申請釋憲認為治案難行剋寫的三分毀就是由大法官不足的大法官來做解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11623.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11631.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因此 這是誰在縱容 我剛剛講了 五院之首是誰 是我們今天賴清德總統他讓這樣子的做法不斷的發生 十歲之位一再的執行難道不應該被彈劾嗎 難道不應該彈劾嗎這就是彈劾的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11652.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11672.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
當然剛才教授 佛教授也說了彈劾無效的原因是因為我們在立法院的支持這些法案的委員人數不足但它有宣誓性的意義讓人家知道我們是有一個違法違憲應該受到彈劾的總統這樣聽得懂嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11677.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11677.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11702.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11724.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
謝謝剛剛的周局長也感謝我們今天各位學者專家綜合答覆的部分我們就到此為止今天的公聽會非常感謝各位學者專家以及審查小組的委員發表寶貴的意見本日公聽會的發言紀錄跟書面資料將依相關規定分送全體委員及 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11725.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11740.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
与会的学者专家作为参考并列入本院公报记录作为国会正式记录再次谢谢各位的与会今天第二场公听会就进行到此为止现在散会谢谢大家 |