| IVOD_ID |
17199 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17199 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-14 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-14T08:31:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-14T11:47:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:16:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6099dcc9ebdb0ad3f59ce1f9dc46489d2410a219bd209750d2daafceaa845c529235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第1場）（事由：第11屆第４會期第３次全院委員會「對總統提出彈劾案」公聽會（第1場）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:00 - 11:47:00 |
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11721.60846875 |
| transcript.pyannote[1316].speaker |
SPEAKER_02 |
| transcript.pyannote[1316].start |
11721.94596875 |
| transcript.pyannote[1316].end |
11743.84971875 |
| transcript.pyannote[1317].speaker |
SPEAKER_02 |
| transcript.pyannote[1317].start |
11744.60909375 |
| transcript.pyannote[1317].end |
11755.59471875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1680.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1680.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1709.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1709.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1742.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1764.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝今天一起來到我們立法院來參與的學者專家謝謝本院到場的委員 各位新聞界的好朋友非常感謝大家能夠今天播種參加今天立法院所舉辦的公聽會那依據中華民國憲法《徵修條文及立法院職權刑事法規定》 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1766.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1788.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
總統彈劾案需經本院全體立法委員二分之一提議交付全院委員會審查審查後提出院會經全體立法委員三分之二以上的決議向司法院大法官提出彈劾案特別跟與會的專家學者各界報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1791.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1801.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本院副坤崎委員等、黃國昌委員等分別依上開規定對賴清德總統提出彈劾案之提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1802.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1820.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
經第15次會議決定,在全院委員會審查彈劾前,於1月14日及15日舉行兩場全院委員會公聽會。本院依照院會決定,今天舉行第一場公聽會,廣納各界意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1822.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1832.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
作為首次審查彈劾案之參考在此特別感謝為本次公聽會所有與會專家以及各位委員所做的準備與發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1835.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1856.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
針對今天公聽會進行的程序,我們現在做以下宣告。發言時間,每位學者專家發表時間為10分鐘。審查小組委員,每位詢問時間同樣為10分鐘。本院委員發言完畢之後,再由學者專家代表綜合答覆30分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1857.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1882.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因此 請各位學者專家發表高見後也能聽取本院各黨團所推派之委員代表之詢問發言最後還要請各位學者專家賜教答覆二 發言順序 先由學者專家發言賜由審查小組委員發言最後再由學者專家綜合答覆相關發言順序 請參院陳列於各位桌上的名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1884.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1907.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
各黨團所推薦的學者專家、審查小組委員如果不在場或者必要時得互相調換次序另外在發言時間結束前一分鐘會按一短鈴發言時間介致時再按一長鈴現在我們開始進行發言首先我們請蔣貴美教授請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1911.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1916.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席 在場所有的來賓 大家好我想因為時間有限 那我就坐著發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1921.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1949.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
在很短的时间里面我有提供书面稿我想几个重点第一个重点是今天来参加这个公听会心情是非常沉重的为什么呢因为我们走过宪改走过78年的国事会议走过很多的重大的冲突跟激荡但是我觉得中华民国成立以来到现在这是宪政史上空前的危机 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1950.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1965.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這個危機大家都非常清楚從賴總統上任之後我們的憲政紛爭不斷我想第一個我要釐清的一個問題就是民主政治的本質到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1966.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1994.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
它是一人一票每票等值我们不能忽略任何一个声音如果我们40%的选票要对60%的选票完全视而不见要对国会的二分之一视而不见要对复议失败的案子仍然坚持要送大法官的宪法法庭去视线用司法来解决政治上少数的事实我觉得这个是宪政上 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1995.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2011.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
动荡不安的关键那所以呢我们要看到事实面从112年这个宪法法庭成立以来112年113年正常运作了两年大概每一年将近20个案子左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2013.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2030.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
114年我們出現了憲判制第一號115年出現了憲判制第一號這兩號都是在五人大法官的決議之下評議出來的它是明顯的違法違憲那但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2031.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2054.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
之后会不会有115宪判之第二号第三号第四号而赖总统坚持仍然不提大法官的人权到立法院我们不得而知但是无效的判决不会因为时间经过而变成有效而且无效的判决它是自始无效它是当然无效它是意思表示无效 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2056.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2081.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個是我們從大學時候就知道的是今天全國千萬的新興學子我們如何教導他們要遵守法治第二個問題呢我想非常清楚我們在這個一一三憲判之第九號那個是立法院職權行使法重大的國會改革法案一一三憲判之第九號 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2082.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2098.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他是复议失败立法院职权刑事法经过修正以后三读通过然后那时候总统至少还公布复议失败然后送去大法官宪法法庭去这个所谓的判决性的解释 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2100.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2116.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
可是立法院三讀通過的法案兵敗如山倒,請問立機何在?立機何在?我想大家都有想讀。同樣的問題,今天更嚴重的是連公佈都不公佈了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2117.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2127.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
連行政院長要附屬也不附屬了我們先不談國外各國的大道理我們也沒那個時間但是我們一清二楚知道我們憲法七十二條裡面總統應於收到法案後十日內公佈之它是強制規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2135.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2161.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
它是MUST這個所謂的因啊憲法裡面的因非常少請大家用搜尋的方式把憲法裡面總統因的字找出來它到底有幾條寥寥可數72條明文規定總統因於收到後10日內公佈之而且沒有但書條款沒有例外條款沒有排除條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2163.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2184.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以不公布核索本。好,這個問題呢,我們必須回歸到哪裡呢?去了解憲政制衡的基本原理。四字五八五號,非常清楚的一再重申,權力、分力、制衡。權力不是只有分力,它包含了制衡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2185.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2200.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
请问制衡的基本原理是什么五院是一般大的它是制衡的那总统并不是五院的首长令我们非常学界不能接受的是我们当初打立法院职权新实法113年宪判是第九号 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2203.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2228.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
居然憲法法庭用了總統是首長的憲訴法的那一條實際上他不是五院的首長我在監察院服務過監察院彈劾文武百官糾舉的部分一定要有首長五院的院長是不能糾舉的他只能彈劾所以總統在憲政體系上他是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2228.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2256.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所謂統治權的首長但是他並不是五院的首長那所以呢我們回到這個基本條文上去認定的時候我們會非常清楚發現憲法裡面呢我們原來有一個五十七條然後這個五十七條透過憲法增修條文的第三條的第二項對行政院對立法院負責的部分做了非常明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2257.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2261.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
行政院對立法院負責的部分我們原來在1557條裡面主要是一個副議 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2263.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2287.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那但是呢 富裕失敗應急接受增修憲法的第三條的第二項他除了富裕加了一個不信任投票把原來的三分之二維持原決議改成二分之一其他沒有變動所以要釐清的是憲法增修條文第二條非常清楚告訴我們富裕是什麼富裕是給行政權優勢的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2290.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2308.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
全世界的国会大家都知道一事不在意是基本原理那你凭什么行政权失败了以后立法院多数已经过了不是你政府要的版本不是你那40%要的版本结果你还可以再行使一次所谓的富裕第二次表决 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2308.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2322.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第二次表決在憲法裡面已經很清楚給了行政院行政權因為附議是要經過總統核可的才能夠行使已經給了行政權非常優惠的第二次表議的空間結果你還失敗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2325.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2328.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
站在一個權力分立制衡的原理行政權為什麼可以比立法權大五權是分立制衡的這是一清二楚的結果富裕失敗應急接受的這句話這是應我剛剛說憲法裡面的應非常少 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2341.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2364.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
徵修第三條的第二項Must應急接受你總統合可了失敗了你要接受那接受的態度是什麼是我不接受讓行政院長不要附屬我不公佈然後呢憲法法庭人數不足立法院多數不能接受立法院行使他的同意權的時候然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2365.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2391.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你第三次你憑什麼不再提你要懂得尊重60%的民意當你不再提五人的大法庭憑什麼可以做判決如果這樣的話那這五人將來可以作為中華民國的皇帝所有行政上解決不了的所有在立法院少數的意見我都可以透過五人來解決這不是憲政災難是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2392.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2408.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以我们回到征修宪法的第三条的第二项非常清楚应急接受它的第二项的标题是什么行政院对立法院负责我请问你那个负责是政治责任还是司法责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2409.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2435.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
如果是政治责任宪法里面规范的几乎全是政治责任我举一个最简单的逻辑宪法里面摆进去的职位全是政治性同意的职位这非常清楚那既然是政治责任结果你不负负一失败了为什么要用司法来解决那叫政治责任所以归根究底也就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2436.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2461.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
作為一個國家元首一定要面對少數國會少數政府的事實少數國會少數政府要用大智慧來解決這是政治問題不要一天到晚丟到司法而最後的底線不能接受的是無人判決是無效的是自主無效的不會因為時間進化而變成有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2462.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2486.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以將來你何以拘束各級法院的法官我們釋字的371號法官對於法律有沒有威脅他只能送請大法官而你大法官自己組成不合法法官根據371號他為什麼憑什麼還要送請你大法官去釋憲所以整個的司法已經亂套了整個的分權制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2487.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2514.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
已经面临到史无前例的最后不能容忍的挑战我希望这一次的弹劾案我们回到宪法宪法既然有权当然可以行使宪法里面的弹劾案立法院的部分条文大家仔细看没有违师监察院的部分有违法失职立法院没有那但是过不过这是另外一回事我们要回归 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2515.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2536.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
就算過了送到憲法法庭他可能還是五個人來審這時候怎麼辦好 簡單報告 謝謝好 謝謝蔣慧敏教授精闢的發言接下來我們請林滕耀教授請表達意見 謝謝好 謝謝主席各位理事 各位先生各位關心憲政的朋友們大家早針對這個今天公聽會的主題我寫了一篇 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2542.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2561.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
賴清德違憲亂政應受彈劾的十大惡行在立法院所發的文件稿上請大家參閱並指教我現在就用一口頭來做一些重點的說明賴清德他說我不貪不娶你們為什麼要彈劾我 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2571.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2583.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我認為這是一個非常無知無恥跟無賴的說法為什麼這樣說呢因為你們大家都知道這個錯誤的政策比貪污還可怕不當的人事安插也比貪污可怕更可怕的是濫用公權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2602.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2616.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
乱花人民的血汗纳税钱所以我这里继续在把这一年七个多月以来做了很多的坏事来跟大家做个报告第一个最坏的赖清德是背叛人民违反宪法忠诚义务那么我这里写得很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2633.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2659.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個賴清德在當選總統以前啊他是信誓旦旦的跟人民表示我當選總統以後啊我要召集朝野協商來推動這個憲改還有這個接受那個館長訪問的時候他還說我要這個推動那個司改要把那個萊嘴法官啊這個恐龍法官啊要修理一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2661.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2688.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但是現在這個恐龍大法官出現了他還去讚美所以這是一個非常嚴重的事情那我們知道賴清德在當總統要當總統的時候必須要根據憲法48條宣誓憲法48條大家好好去看一下非常重要他說這個一臂遵守憲法他這樣講盡忠職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2692.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2717.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
如有為誓言要受嚴厲的制裁我們現在今天做這個彈二就是制裁的開端而已第二個惡行我在這裡跟大家報告的就是他不一線公佈法律剛才蔣貴美教授已經提過的引經論點講了一些法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2720.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2748.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那個更重要我在的就是它有四個不一而且不一這個依法行政最重要就是行政院長不依憲法規定向立法院負責這個嚴重違反憲法徵修條文第三條的規定那我剛剛講四個不一哪四個不一呢第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2750.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2774.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不依法編制預算我們知道預算的編制要根據預算法的然後這個他這個讓立委沒有辦法來審查這個預算因為你不依法編制嘛第二個不一線附屬大家都知道這個附屬是總統的命令要經過行政院長的附屬保證這個總統不會亂發命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2780.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2809.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
它不是來對抗立法院的它是我剛剛講過行政院要對立法院負責的這是基本原理唯一一個例外剛才蔣貴美教授講過了就是復議憲法證據上你只能復議其他全部要依法行政而如果復議不成的時候你必須要應急接受所以我這裡就說這個不依憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2812.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2838.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
接受立法院赋予过的法案第三个不一第四个不一是不一县开行政院会议大家好好去看看上网看看行政院会议是干什么宪法那么重要的一个行政院会议他把它摆空造成这个厌塞福的退体的现象伤害人民非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2840.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2860.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
当然都知道这个立法委员已经跟他讲过了那个厌塞福那边很危险要注意他尽量不开行政院会议统合各部会的意见来处理这个厌塞福的这个所以造成溃敌的事件对人民的伤害是非常大所以这是个最大恶极的行为那个 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2864.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2885.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第三個,我認為他這是很糟糕的一件事情,總統公佈法例,你就公佈法例啊,你怎麼在公佈的文件上寫上,依申請釋憲及暫時處分,你是對誰講話?你對行政院,要行政院做嗎?要考試院做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2887.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2900.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個很不對的事情啊用政治的信令啊來干預憲法應該公佈法律的一個程序這是不像一個總統的作為啊這是很丟臉的這個總統是讓人家感到很羞恥的一個總統第四個我來講就是他非常糟糕的就是第四個惡行就是對整年這個操弄這個策動對立委的大罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2918.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2931.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
違憲打壓多數人民選出的國會這個大家都很清楚啊所以大罷免讓民眾非常反感所以一直給他打耳光32 33比0所以這是丟臉丟到齊的一個總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2936.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2965.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第五個就是他兼任黨主席總統兼任黨主席伙同行政院監察院民進黨黨團申請釋憲侵蝕國會權力推翻民進黨自己所提過的國會改革國會改革民進黨講了多少次國會要有調查權藐視國會罪都是他們要講的執政以後完全翻臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2967.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2993.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
很不要臉的一個民進黨的這個做法那我這裡講到這個攤販立法院的功能就是最可怕我們憲法現在唯一的國會是立法院立法院既然沒有調查權然後官員可以在國會亂講話那我們的人民到哪裡去啊這侮辱我們的人民非常壞的一個事情第六我要提到的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2998.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3022.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
國政選舉法以動員取代這個治理一年七個多月來 賴清德幹了什麼事啊每天就看他拜廟 每天就看他造勢 浮現 弄影片批評政治對手他的作法就是非常重要的國政都沒有做最近爆發的少數化辦公室的事情大家都看到了還有很多經過的弊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3025.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3032.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那個黃國昌去美國以前他說這個軍公案的這兩張A4的紙七個條文你叫我們怎麼審啊這五路台灣人民這麼厲害啊人民的血汗那錢1.25兆你可以用兩張A4的紙來弄嗎第七個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3046.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3067.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
兩度胡亂侵屍不合格的大法官人選敗壞司法的公信力這個大家看清楚我也參加這個公聽會啊第一個提名那個姚立民這非常糟糕啦第二次提名那個檢察官這當然立法院要把關為人民把關把這些人全部否決啊第八個就提到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3074.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3089.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
稱喜萬華裁判的大法官放任憲法法庭沒有正常組成然後就做判決昨天一個叫什麼 深宮的一個他自稱是以前的大法官他就出來罵其實他罵得很對啊其實我很早就講憲法175條最重要我寫了很多文章 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3102.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3119.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
175條是最重要的程序條文給立法院來定了這個東西所以他昨天他也呼應我的講法他認為這個總統這樣亂搞是不對第九個是不讓請病假一年的監察院長辭職坐視監察院職能敗壞這個多壞啊公務人員保障法12條之一規定我來辭職你不批一個月的生效現在去查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3131.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3159.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
如果陳群有提然後你不給他辭職那你就有罪過第十個重大民生全面施政卻下鄉我講難聽的是下海把總統的職位做賤這種搞大發明大浮顯的卸責立法院的做法是讓人民看不起這個總統謝謝大家謝謝林教授寶貴的發言 謝謝接下來我們請第三位賴秉祥律師請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3161.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3178.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝院長以及各位大家早安大家好那首先很感謝可以受邀到貴院來針對這個總統貪婪案件來進行本輪的意見的發表那觀察立法院提出總統貪婪案件的理由分別在14號的11018101以及1018160其中11018160沒有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3186.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3201.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
主要理由大概是放任台積電赴美投資出賣台灣關鍵產業鏈還有有關於總行政院長不附屬兩大議題那第一個要問的是說台積電在昨天跟今天都已經很穩定的占上1700多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3203.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3232.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那這還算是一個必須要去攻擊跟作為彈劾的原因嗎這個產業面的問題是有必要去斟酌啦那第二個針對比較憲法上的議題來講的話我們有看到是主要是針對行政院長不附屬的部分那針對這個前言呢我大概分為幾點來做一個論述第一個按照憲法邏輯跟他的脈絡他附屬是一個行政院長的實質性的權利行政院長本來就有權以附屬作為行政權的捍衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3232.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3251.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那這個依據學者陳英前教授的研究當初制憲者在張俊邁先生他在翻譯威馬憲法的時候他就有注意到說辦總統治下總理的附屬權有陷入的困境就是他可能會對抗立法或總統那在當時的背景都被普遍認為說他是要用來對抗當時的總統主要是因為他認為說那時候的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3254.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3271.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
總理或說那時候的那個首長具有一定程度的民意代表性但觀察我們憲法徵收條文的第二項的規定可以發現說附屬權它其實在修憲之後它並沒有被完全的拿掉它基本上還是具有一定程度的行政院長的這個實際性的附屬權 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3274.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3298.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以第一點的結論是,附屬是行政院長,附屬權是行政院長的實質性的權利。第二點是,附屬權本來就不限於對抗總統,況且在修憲之後,依據民主國原則,附屬權當然得以對抗立法權。在前面的專家學者,還有包括林教授的論述,剛剛他好像不太贊同我的見解,不過無所謂,我先把它講完。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3299.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3319.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
他最主要認為就是說附屬權是用來對抗總統那可是附屬權用來對抗總統的原因是因為他是建立在虛位元首也就是說總統他沒有實行的權利包含這一個我們大家所熟知的英國跟日本的情況但第一個要想像的是說第一個我國憲法上來講總統是一個虛位元首嗎不是總統具有民意正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3320.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3340.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
第二個如果真的要對抗元首的話必須建立在憲法第55條的功能上也就是說行政院長的權力不是當然源自於總統而是部分源自於立法院也就是雙重民意代表性的情況下他附屬才有辦法去對抗元首但在目前我國憲法已經修憲情況下憲法第55條已經被停止適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3341.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3362.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那內閣制最重要的特徵跟權力結構被破壞也就是說現在的行政院長就是內閣首長他的權力不是源自於立法院那在不是源自於立法院的情況下如果回歸民主國原則的話所謂民主國原則就是4至793所提到的憲法以民主國為原則作為基本建制原則也就是人民作為一切國家權力來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3364.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3386.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
憲法第一條第二條人民透過參政權行使實際參與國家權利運作提供國家權利運作民主正當性也就是行政院長的權利既然源自於總統而非源自立法院因此在這種情況下來講的話作為行政院長實質權利的附屬權當然可以對抗立法院換句話說過去在行政院長須經立法院多數同意下 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3386.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3402.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
行政院長尚得透過附屬否決立法院的法律案也就是說在憲法第55條還有效力的情況下行政院長都可以透過附屬權否決立法院的法律案更何況在目前憲法第55條已經被憲法中央條文停止適用的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3403.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3425.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
行政院長以附屬權來否定立法院法律案自屬當然之理所以從第一點跟第二點的論述附屬權是一個實際性的權利第二點是在內閣制的特徵被破壞之下行政院長的附屬權已經具有實際上的權利的情況下行政院長的附屬權本來就可以用來對抗立法院那在這兩個論述的情況下我們可以發現一件事情本件 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3426.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3443.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
有關於立法院委員提案的內容裡面他之所以要提案針對總統去彈劾的部分是因為兩個原因第一個就是產業的部分那這個我剛好論述第二個就是他認為說行政院長的不願意附屬導致立法院的法律沒有被執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3444.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3465.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
因此他認為說要去彈劾總統但如果按照這個邏輯跟關鍵性來看的話其實所有一切是源自於行政院長不願附屬那行政院長不願附屬既然是行政院長不願附屬應該是針對行政院長來進行一個政治跟憲法方面的權力互相的制衡那怎麼會跟總統有關係那當然這裡面他們會認為說這背後的指導其實都是總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3466.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3491.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那這個關鍵的幕後支持者都是總統可是問題是憲法的制度設計結構就是如此在整個中華民國憲法裡面並沒有提到總統要親自對這個立法院負責那在整個論述上來講如果單純的是因為不能夠接受總統的施政或不能夠接受總統的政策提出彈劾可以有原因可是問題是在立法院的關係文書裡面很明顯就是針對不附屬的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3491.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3512.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以既然是不附屬的部分的話那其實最終還是要回歸到行政權跟立法權的互動這才是整個邏輯上比較正確比較合理的地方那再延續來講觀察本次行政院長不願意附屬的原因最主要還是源自於財化法的論述跟財化法的爭議那財化法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3512.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3526.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們透過這個憲法條文的部分來觀察在剛剛多數的專家裡面有特別提到的是他認為說總統應該公佈法律但總統應該公佈法律的前提的情況是行政院長必須附屬那邏輯上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3527.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3547.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
按照憲法徵用條文的規定來講憲法條文的規定來講的話憲法第70條以及在後續我國司法院4至264391號解釋後特別提到立法院不可以增加預算就是說立法院不可以提出增加預算案件就是說文字是說立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3549.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3570.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以在這種情況下來講的話行政院長基於他對於憲法的確信也就是憲法條文第70條司法院4至264跟391的論述下來講的話他認為說本件的裁劃法會有所爭議這當然是行政院長他基於他實行的權力可以加以主張跟論述了所以在這種情況下來講的話其實最終立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3571.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3598.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
當然他有權利可以提供彈劾但是他彈劾必須要有正當性也就是說他必須基於他邏輯上跟論述上可以被接受的理由去進行彈劾那第二個是行政院長他確實有權利基於他對於憲法的確信因為按照釋字第185號解釋行政院長本來就必須要去遵守憲法的忠誠義務這是剛剛前面幾位學者跟多數學者都有提到跟可能的前提所以行政院長也有權利進行不附屬那所以在這種情況下來講我們必須要認真回歸到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3599.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3615.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所謂的談得到底有沒有意義如同我前面所講的第一個 附屬是一個實際性的權利第二個 行政院長他有權利透過附屬來對抗不限於總統更何況在目前憲法條第五十五條被修憲之後進行使用之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3616.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3636.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
內閣制的特徵已經完全被破壞的情況下附屬權本來就可以對抗立法院在基於行政院長認為裁劃法有違反憲法第七十條司法院四至二六四跟三九一號解釋的論述下行政院長本來就可以基於他對憲法忠誠義務對於立法院所提出的法案以不附屬的方式予以制衡那所以重商來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3639.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3661.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
從以上的脈絡都可以發現跟總統的職權跟總統的法律跟總統的政策決定都沒有明顯的關係所以我認為本件的彈劾案來講的話我認為是在邏輯跟論述上來講是找不到很正當性的依據那如果說假設要回歸整體的有關於立法權跟行政權的互動的話其實在憲法遵守條文裡面已經有明確指出它的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3661.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3689.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
在憲法中條文第三條第二項的規定裡面有提到說它可以三條第二項的第三款規定立法院得經全體委員三分之一以上連署對行政院提出不幸的難不幸的難在提出72小時之後應該有48小時內居民投票表決之所以如果理由論述上來講是要針對行政院長不附屬的話應該是要回歸到憲法中條文的第三條第二項第三款而非總統的彈劾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3690.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3704.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那最後我稍微再利用一點點時間提到的概念就是說這一個除了憲法第七條跟4-264-391號解釋的違憲的確性之外行政院長除了這三個違憲的確性之外其實在那裡面有提到說程序違憲的問題那程序違憲的問題當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3706.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3722.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
前面部分學者部分專家不認可這個司法院大法官的見解不過還是要特別提醒在114憲判1裡面有特別提到立法院的正當法律程序也必須與遵守否則的話立法院的正當法律程序在有疑義的情況下來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3722.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3749.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
恐怕也是會構成違憲的爭議那這個違憲的爭議上來講的話對於行政院是否要遵行跟是否要裁刑相關的立法部分也是會有所依那當然依照我們作為一個法律不要說法律人或是說作為法律從業者的一個確信跟論述來講的話我們認為最終議規還是要回歸現在的司法院由憲法法庭來進行最後的裁決跟議規因為司法權才是整個有關於憲政爭議最終應該要確立跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3751.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3767.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
最終由他來定奪的一個權力機關那以上發言謝謝各位好謝謝賴秉祥賴律師的精闢發言謝謝接下來我們請登記第四位我們由玉蘭由理事長請表達表達寶貴意見謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3770.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3795.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
院長 各位委員 各位先進 大家早安我是游玉蘭很榮幸能夠參加歷史上重要的一刻在對總統提出彈劾案的公聽會上發言賴總統到底在人民心中是什麼形象呢我在網路上搜索了他從德意志 清德中 到袁世凱上身都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3797.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3825.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
前幾天賴清德在出席AI人才大會時他很接地氣地講了一個冷笑話他說我的名字裡英文名字裡有AI所以你們可以叫我AI總統這個笑話一點都不好笑因為網路上更流行的萊爾發音也有AI其實你的AI就是全民的BI |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3827.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3851.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
德意志可以從他當選總統後還沒有就任就開始顯示因為他一意孤行地想清除掉在野黨拒絕監督制衡為了去年夏天的大霸年整個行政體系幾乎停擺他在上台之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3855.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3873.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
就不斷地在攻擊在野黨 打擊在野黨側翼們誣衊國民黨是中共同路人 是匪諜沒想到最後抓到的共諜都在總統府 行政院和他擔任主席的民進黨民進黨二度 三度執政之後 立案頻傳風電 光電 爐渣 他們要賺 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3885.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3909.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
但是也出現了很多勵志的故事新冠疫情時小吃店可以進口快篩四季超市賣雞蛋現在在台南做裝潢的賣茶葉的都可以得標進口槍炮彈藥成為軍火商真是超級勵志 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3912.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3918.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
賴總統在上台後國家機器動得非常兇減掉尤其受到重用 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3919.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3931.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
只不过他们对颜色很敏感什么白的蓝的下手非常重一定要积压竞见对于绿色特别顺眼即使是做了六年的共谍收钱出卖我国的机密情报还是可以交保而且颜色对了交保金额绝对打折打到顾折 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3943.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3967.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
更神奇的是檢調在查罷免民進黨立委的連署案時只不過是偽造文書的輕罪卻可以小案大辦 押人取貢而且鋪天蓋地完全不符合比例原則各縣市的國民黨幾乎都被收遍了即使叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3971.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3988.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
蓝白大咖除了天价保释金之外还会在要求佩戴电子脚镣这样子的防逃监控从来不会用在犯罪所得数百亿数十亿的要犯上当然他们可以逃之夭夭 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3990.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4007.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
当然民进党也很会用警察的社会法来处理所谓的假消息假讯息打压言论自由只不过过去五年中有超过七成的假讯息案件被法院裁定是不罚的滥用司法之后人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4012.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4035.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
都了解了所以大罷免沒有成功國會還是再也多數所以再出來的建招就是行政沒收司法行政沒收立法對於立法院三讀通過的法案行政院已經八次複議都失敗現在又不執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4046.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4060.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
不附属我们还算是依法行政的法治国家吗为了对付立法权连司法院的大法官也粉墨登场配合行政院演出 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4062.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4083.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
他們不惜在只有五個人參加評議三分之二的門檻都沒有達標下宣告限訴法修正案違憲逼得化名升功的前大法官都要投書發出沉痛的呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4091.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4097.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他说一以违宪违法再则于不可及岂可再沾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4098.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4100.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
赖清德在竞选时 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4129.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4155.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
不久前赖总统宣布未来八年要投入1.25兆的国防特别预算向美国采购军阀其实我们过去对美国的军购还有七千亿将近七千亿是已经付钱还没有交货的对美国我们无比大方但是对于军警消赖政府可以说是一毛不拔即使自愿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4158.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4170.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
軍人加薪和警消退休金所得替代率的調整在總預算之中只不過佔1%仍然是吃定警消 抵死不邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4172.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4194.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
立法院通過了停肯年金案他們也藉口要申請釋憲從中作梗對於軍警銷而言他們犧牲健康錯過家庭透支人生退休金原本是屬於延後支付的薪資卻被政府背叛這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4196.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4223.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
卸磨杀驴吐死狗喷早在2019年大法官的释字第785号解释就已经认定景潇海巡移民的健康权受到侵害想不到他们居然会成为年改之中被砍杀最严重的一群而现职的工作条件也并没有改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4224.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4252.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這是制度性的霸凌與剝削這不是改革 這是掠奪這更是國安問題當一個國家的守護者發現自己拼命換來的契約保障竟然可以被政府隨意撕毀當年輕人看到前輩們退休後的處境你要他們如何相信政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4254.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4259.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
現在傷害已經造成了不但國考報考人數斷崖式的下滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4260.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4290.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
景大和景專的招生一年比一年困難過去景消移民可以招收到國內外大學的非常優秀的人才現在的入取率飆升但是更令人擔心的是大法官前年做出景消要求升高違憲之後去年景大的新生有不到147公分的而景專的新生則有151公分 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4290.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4306.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
是想未來在發生隨機殺人案的時候民眾求助的警察身材如此嬌小要如何來保護他們我們的大法官真的是離民意好遠好遠如果制度不改治安會出問題基層比想像的基層的警察比想像的辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4320.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4343.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
高薇拉的勤務他們的薪資比勞工的時薪還低看不到未來選擇離開的就是李鑫的決定如果政府繼續以行政傲慢來藐視國會羞辱軍警消台灣的治安和安全勢將動搖為什麼孟子黎樓篇裡面有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4349.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4371.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
君之士臣如守卒,則臣士君如復興。君之士臣如犬馬,則臣士君如國人。君之士臣如土界,則臣士君如寇仇。國將衰,先見其師。國將亂,先見其景。國將亡,先見其君。臺灣是法治 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4376.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4396.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
不是人質這一切踐踏法律踐踏軍警消踐踏國會的做法是典型的人質善待軍公教警消罷我支持彈劾賴清德謝謝各位謝謝游議員 游理事長的發言接下來我們請登記第五位黃定義律師請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4399.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4424.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
院長各位委員與會先進就今天的彈劾提案總統的公聽會提出法律意見那對於這一次提案的內容在彈劾的理由裡面很清楚看得到說在法律程序上並不合現行在於法律責任追究的這樣的一個要件那藍白提案這一個明顯提案彈劾總統有捨盡求援的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4426.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4445.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因為案件的根源在於行政院長不附屬的違憲惡法那如果是行政院長的責任那怎麼會做彈劾總統為什麼叫捨禁求援從憲政程序上面可以看得出來那這樣的一個捨禁求援打假球的情況明顯就是為了轉移不敢倒閣的心虛 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4445.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4463.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那在憲政層次上面有三大法律謬誤在這一次提案彈劾打假球的情況有三大法律謬誤第一個是憲法徵修條文規定明定的程序那程序上面可以看得出這一次的彈劾案是打假球在憲法徵修條文第三條第二項第三款的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4464.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4483.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
對於隔奎的不信任案它的門檻只要二分之一委員贊同同意行政院長就必須在十日內提出辭職那這個彈劾案的內容看得出來它是針對隔奎的不附屬那不附屬如果要讓隔奎負起政治責任簡單來講就是提起倒戈 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4485.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4513.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
行政院長就會去指那提彈劾呢在我們憲法徵修條文第四條第七項的規定它必須要經過立法委員三分之二以上之決議所以在程序上看得出來是法律實務上不可能法律實務上不可能因為目前藍白只有過半它能提的只有這個倒戈而對於三分之二的席次顯然門檻是不足的那在明顯未達門檻的情況下還要提出這是憲政上的大甲球 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4513.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4542.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以只是心虛转移不敢倒戈的这样一个焦点第二个部分在于弹劾追究的是法律责任而蓝白的弹劾理由通篇都是政治口水明显是法律上的渣渣球为什么弹劾是追究法律责任目前在追究政治责任包括倒戈跟罢免是追究政治责任弹劾追究的是法律责任在113年宪法法庭宪判制第九号的揭示 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4544.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4570.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
理由對於公職人員之彈劾細未發動司法懲戒程序以追究公職人員違法失職之法律責任而非追究其政治責任彈劾之目的亦非處理政治問題所以大法官其實超前就打臉了這一篇所謂彈劾的理由用政治口水當彈劾理由藍白要彈劾彈劾理由至少要寫得像法律上面責任的追究或者是寫得像犯罪的起訴書 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4572.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4599.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
才會符合這樣的一個法律要求但是裡面卻寫了一堆什麼大惡霸摧毀台灣民主啦放任台積電赴美投資造謠抹黑等等通篇政治口水如果要講政治口水網路鄉民都會寫得比藍白這份彈劾理由好藍白這份彈劾理由完全不符合憲法法庭113年憲判制第九號所揭示的彈劾要追究的是法律責任荒謬至極法律上打假球 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4600.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4629.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
第三個大家求在什麼在於如果通過彈劾案他要送到的是大法官憲法法庭剛剛所引用的憲法徵修條文第四條第七項明文寫的如果彈劾案經過三分之二立法委員通過他要申請司法院大法官審理但是現階段是藍白全面否定憲法法庭彈劾總統最終由憲法法庭審理這是憲法徵修條文的明文規定所以代表一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4630.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4649.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
連憲法法庭都被藍白否定了那你現在提彈劾案彈劾案從頭到尾就是打假球所以國會對於不敢倒閣提出各種方式包括三分之二門檻不到憲法法庭最後審理他們也否定的情況之下顯然是打假球的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4651.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4671.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
行政院長不附屬他其實不附屬違憲惡法具有憲法上的正當性全球的民主國家只有台灣的憲法法庭被癱瘓超過了一年有500件的人權救濟案件在那邊躺了一年只因為藍白強推的憲訴法 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4672.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4700.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
兩度杯葛大法官全面杯葛大法官人士讓台灣在全世界上發生極為罕見的憲法法庭癱瘓的憲政危機行政院作為憲政機關在現代民主國家裡面守護民主憲政是所有憲政機關的責任不是只有大法官的責任所以當這一個違憲惡法發生的時候行政院長採取不附屬讓違憲惡法無法生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4701.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4722.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
避免傷害的發生這才是守護民主憲政保護人民保護國家非常重要的憲政上的義務剛剛很多人去引用一個化名的大法官我在這邊引用一個具名的大法官許志雄前大法官這不是化名他負起文字的責任文則是有負的他在憲法法庭癱瘓一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4723.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4747.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
五百件人權案申請卡關台灣憲政危機的困境與解決之道的文章中具體去講他說拒絕為毀憲亂政的法律案及預算案等背書行政院長不附屬可以阻止公布施行立法院若無法容忍可以倒閣以追究行政院長的政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4748.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4770.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
自不生行政獨裁的疑慮這個是許志雄前大法官據名去寫不是用化名據名去寫對於現階段違憲惡法行政院長不附屬違憲惡法如果立法院認為行政院長的不附屬本質上他不同意他可以提起的是那他就提到個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4771.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4795.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
調格照憲法徵修條文的規定行政院長就會離去職提起總統彈劾案三分之二門檻顯然不到藍白過半輕易可以倒戈在這邊採取憲政上的制衡機制卻捨此不為 捨盡求遠這個明顯就是打假球最後我要來談對於現階段立法院提起彈劾案總統要不要到立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4796.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4822.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我認為總統依據憲法忠誠義務不應該配合打假球法庭113年憲判制第九號裡面清楚地揭示基於民主原則與民意政治與責任政治之要求直接民選之總統與立法院應應對各自的人民負起政治責任彼此間並無憲法上之權力從屬關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4825.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4840.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
總統並不對立法院負責立法院亦無權向總統問責之憲法權限所以對於所謂不論是一問一答 質詢或者是對於總統要提國情報告等等相關的內容如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4841.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4855.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個部分都是總統權利而無從讓立法院假借又彈劾的名義要求總統到立法院接受質詢這個部分跟憲法法庭113年憲判制第九號已經針對國會擴權法案中總統國情報告疾問疾答判決違憲同一法理 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4862.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4883.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
藍白要求總統假借用彈劾的名義到立法院接受問答或質詢這個部分是凸顯違憲後毫無回憶因為已經被判決違憲再引用國際上面的例子美國是總統制國家美國總統到國會發表國情之文也是發表之後即離開議場 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4884.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4910.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
美國的國會議員並沒有質詢權朝野議員美國朝野不論是民主黨或共和黨誰在執政都一樣都會展現民主風度充分尊重總統到國會的儀式那我們最常引用說那台灣可能不是不要用美國的總統制來比喻很常講說雙手掌制那我再講法國雙手掌制法國的雙手掌制總統到法國國會的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4912.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4930.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
國會議員不只沒有質詢權法國國會更在議事規則明定國會議員不得用任何的行動干擾總統來報告及演講這個是明文的規定所以藍白要假借一個彈劾案要求總統到立法院接受質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4931.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4952.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
不只不符合我國憲法我剛剛講的113年憲判制第九號已經清楚的揭示更超越美國跟法國的這樣的一個規範簡直是國際笑話總統對於國會違憲的要求這一個部分沒有配合的義務因為總統必須對憲法忠誠不要配合國會打假球以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4964.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4975.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
院長還有各位立委還有各位在座先進大家好我是李岳陽律師我想我們今天大家會坐在這邊有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要去彈劾賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4976.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5003.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那在這個裡面有一個彈劾的原因就是說今天行政院院長他可以不附屬去對抗立法院我們現在重點是說我剛剛聽了很多前面先進大家所說的因為大家講的都是一個面但是並沒有去很深入的去探討這個附屬權它到底它的性質是什麼也就是說今天附屬權我想在座的各位大家都 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5004.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5031.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
大家都可以同意一件事它是一個責任政治跟為了制衡而存在的一個權利但是它是對誰負責還有它是為制衡誰而存在目前我好像沒有聽到所以今天這個公聽會我想是全國人民都是可以看到我覺得不管最後彈劾的結果是什麼至少我們要讓大家知道說今天是誰違反了這個憲政這個是很重要的一個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5032.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5057.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那今天呢我就會針對三個部分去探討什麼叫做行政院長的附屬權這三個部分呢我想第一個我會先去談到從世界的立憲制度來看附屬權它是從什麼制度而來的第二個我們呢要從憲法的本文去看什麼叫做附屬權它的一個效力還有它的歷史背景第三個就是我們憲法徵修條文之後附屬權它被做了什麼樣的更動 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5062.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5078.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
還有它有沒有保持原來的一個特性那我先講一下我的答案我認為行政院院長是不能動用附屬權去對抗立法院這是我的答案那我先說從立憲制度來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5080.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5099.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們大家都知道世界上有兩大立憲制度第一個是這是最原始的第一個是英國的內閣制第二個是美國的總統制那附屬權是怎麼來的附屬權就是從內閣制來的內閣制的總理他會有一個附屬權 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5100.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5128.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那這個是代表什麼事情這是因為內閣制的權力它的行政權來自於哪裡多數民意也就是它來自於國會所以通常來講的話這個內閣制的總理他會有行政權同時他必須要什麼他必須要去對國會去負責所以他有一個附屬的一個權力這個呢我們中華民國的法律既然有了附屬權我們就要去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5130.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5139.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我記得在我以前學憲法的時候老師會講到一個故事這個故事是在民國37年的時候當時要選總統中華民國要選總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5143.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5166.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
大家知道當時第一位的總統蔣中正先生是屬意誰嗎並不是他自己喔他屬意的總統是胡適先生為什麼因為他很清楚的明白知道我們中華民國的憲法是內閣制而不是總統制所以他屬意是胡適先生來當總統之後任命自己當行政院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5167.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5184.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
如果是學過憲法的學者學過憲法的學生應該都聽過這個故事可是後來沒有成行是因為國民黨的中央執行委員不支持胡適先生所以最後還是由蔣中正先生當選了總統這個是我要先說明一個歷史背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5185.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5211.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好 當然我們現在會有人講不對啦 這個故事是以前的故事啦在憲法修正之後呢增修條文之後呢這個行政院院長的同意這個行政院長立法院的同意權已經被拿掉了所以這個時候已經跟以前不一樣了不能做相同的類比因為行政院院長呢他的名義基礎呢已經從立法院被抽走了好 這個部分我們待會會一併說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5215.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5228.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我只是要跟大家講說不是說立法院抽走了行政院長的同意權行政院院長就不用向立法院負責這個是我要先做的一個結論喔那我們從憲法的本文跟體系來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5230.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5248.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
憲法的本文附屬權規定在哪裡它是規定在憲法第四章總統章它不是規定在立法院章大家看清楚它是第37條因為為什麼要特別講這個我先念一下本文它的本文是說總統依法公佈法律發佈命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5250.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5279.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
須就是一定經行政院院長之附屬或行政院院長及有關部門副長之附屬這代表什麼意思這代表說這個附屬權是跟總統還有立法院院長之間有關而且呢 院長的 抱歉總統的發布命令一定要什麼一定要經過命令跟法律要經過行政院院長的附屬也就是他是被拘束的那我想這個應該不用法盲 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5281.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5300.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為我去看了很多網路上很多會去笑人家說你是法盲這不用法盲啊 這文盲要不你不是文盲你就看得出來啊這個顯然就是從體系上跟文藝上就是什麼他是在拘束總統嘛附屬權在拘束總統怎麼會去拘束這個立法院呢當然還有人提出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5301.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5312.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
行政院院長拒絕附屬在歷史上不是第一次喔這次不是第一次喔什麼時候曾經發生過在中華民國憲法修法之前曾經發生過一次什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5314.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5342.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那個時候是李登輝總統要發布人事命令結果呢被郝柏村行政院院長擋住了他拒絕附屬可是各位大家要記得這個有兩個關鍵第一個他拒絕附屬的是行政任命權這是第二個他拒絕附屬的是制衡什麼他是拒絕總統他制衡的是總統不是立法院跟本案根本沒有關係這是本文的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5345.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5365.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們再從憲法修憲的過程來看在講憲法修正之前我要先跟各位介紹一下我們中華民國憲法的修正跟一般的修法在不同的在哪裡我們一般的修法是把原本的條文整個刪除之後重新用一個新的條文去增加這個叫做修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5366.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5395.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
可是我們中華民國的憲法的修憲呢不是喔它是用凍結的方式它用了一個徵修條文的方式去凍結本文所以說它保留了本文它只是凍結了部分的條文適用好那我們就可以看到啦我們講到這個東西有了這個理解之後我們就可以看到附屬權在修憲中的演變喔由於剛剛有提到那個郝伯春院長呢對於李登輝總統拒絕附屬的這個實際案例之後呢所以在修憲的過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5396.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5424.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
理論會為了避免這種事情再次發生做了什麼事情我們在修正條文的修正條文的第二條的第二項去凍結了原本附屬權的本文凍結了哪個部分是人事命令權就那個部分所以其他的部分有沒有被凍結沒有啊所以我們還是要回到原來去啊我們的是一種內閣制的精神他本來就是要去制衡總統啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5425.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5452.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
就是因為當時的總統被制衡了所以他幹了一件事情他把那個部分要制衡自己的部分把它凍結了其他要制衡自己的部分並沒有凍結這個就是什麼我們法律上常講的法驗就是法律的成語叫做什麼民事其一排除其他就是原來的性質要保留效果也要保留然後我們再看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5453.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5479.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
其實在修憲的過程中我們為什麼認為行政院院長對立法院院長仍然要負責他不是單純只是總統的幕僚長因為修憲者做了兩個行為嘛第一個行為是他積極的行為他提出了我們增加了什麼 倒閣案嘛倒閣案是什麼意思倒閣案就是行政院院長如果我們立法院不認為行政院院長是適合的這個是要提出一個倒閣案所以代表什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5480.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5497.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
行政院院長要對立法院負責啊誰說他的任命權被拔掉之後同意權被拔掉之後就可以不用向立法院負責這是荒天下之大謬嘛然後第二個修憲者有意的消極不為他的消極不為在哪裡我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5499.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5521.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
他只去凍結了部分的任命權沒有凍結全部的附屬權喔所以這就是他的消極不為好那在最後我再說一個我們憲法正經用條文有增加了一個附議剛剛很多先進都有提到其實如果附議啊你如果認為你可以不附屬的話我就講一個那你幹嘛定附議那就架空附議了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5522.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5543.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對不對以上所以我認為那個行政院院長他是不能夠拒絕對立法院提出法案的附屬謝謝好 謝謝李悅陽律師的寶貴發言接下來最後一位發言完畢之後我們將會休息十分鐘我們請第七位陳怡凱陳教授請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5545.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5565.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝院長 各位委員 各位先進 大家好我是成功大學法律系副教授陳一凱我們針對這次的彈劾案公聽會呢申請人所提出來的這些法律的疑問我們做一下這個意見法律的意見的提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5566.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5594.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
申請人的邏輯是說從退回復議行政院在退回復議案被立法委員維持原案是不是根據徵修條文第三條第二項第二款就必須要有附有接受的義務從而也有附屬的義務這兩個義務是在憲法上其實是有問題的而且在學界也是有爭論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5596.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5617.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那麼關於行政院院長他的復議案被立法委員維持原案條文是直接講是應急接受但是這個意思是不是說行政院院長他就會受到這個決議的拘束呢肯定說認為受到拘束那麼否則的話總統的權限就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5621.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5638.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
無窮的大那麼另外一個肯定說下一頁那麼否定說是認為無拘束力這特別是前大法官許仲利大法官跟黃昭元大法官都是採取這種見解他認為說如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5641.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5656.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有拘束力的話那就變成立法權會獨大甚至造成國會獨裁那無論是正面的見解或是反面的見解都會疑慮是不是國會獨大或是總統獨大但是我們要來從舊憲法第57條 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5659.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5672.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
就憲法第57條的規定是退回復議被立法院維持原案的時候有一個結果這個結果就是行政院要麼是辭職要不然就是接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5673.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5700.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那麼在當時的憲法的學界對這個條文的解釋特別是劉慶瑞學者跟李鴻熙教授都認為說這個就是倒閣的意思就是說沒有所謂的可以接受的也就是說當你的重大的法案退回復翼被國會又維持原案的話這時候就只能辭職而已沒有所謂的接受這條路 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5701.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5730.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那反對見解是認為說總統有富裕和可權所以總統不是虛偽元首所以不能朝著說這裡就是不信任投票的意思就是所謂的倒閣因此行政院院長在這裡可以選擇要麼就是辭職要不然的話他就可以接受但是無論是這兩方面的見解雙方都是認為這個是一種權力的制衡是立法權跟行政權在這裡的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5731.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5740.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
然後兩說也都是認為說這裡是跟是不是倒閣有關也就是說一派是認為說我 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5742.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5771.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我不認為這個是自動的倒閣因此就接受因此接受在這裡並不是說行政院院長有接受的義務特別是這裡他是可以選擇選擇是他要麼總辭要不然就是接受因此在接受這裡並沒有接受的義務因為為什麼呢因為在這裡立法權顯然參照各國的議會的制衡的制度總統制就是退回復一然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5773.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5787.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
內閣制就是倒閣跟解散國會這裡面所要求的是行政權跟立法權在法律案必須要合作要達成妥協沒有辦法達成妥協這裡就會形成一個僵局 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5788.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5812.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個僵局要怎麼解決呢就是所謂的倒閣跟解散國會的途徑因此在下一頁就是徵秀條文第三條第二項後來就改了它改成說要採取這個把這個辭職把它拿掉了因此就剩下接受但是在這裡並沒有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5816.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5832.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個接受在這裡就是按照前面的解釋它只是不自動產生倒閣的效果而已它並沒有因為在這裡還是形成一個僵局僵局的解決就規定在徵修條文的同一條的第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5832.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5853.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
就是必須還要在額外的立法院還要在額外的提出不信任投票如果沒有他沒有做這個舉動的話呢這裡還是會形成僵局也就是說呢在這裡最後呢行政院跟立法院對這個法案呢還是要妥協如果不妥協的話呢那當然就還是僵局就形成下去所以並不能從 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5855.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5867.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
從條文的文字應接受這裡所謂的應接受其實就是不自動發生倒閣的作用而已並沒有說行政院要負擔接受的義務再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5875.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5897.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那麼在下一頁我們看一下4至461號也是講在徵修條文第三條第二項第一款他也是認為這是憲法基於民意政治跟責任政治原理的制度性設計所以4至461號解釋大法官已經肯認雖然已經有徵修條文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5897.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5913.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
的修改了但是仍然認為這是責任政治跟民意政治的設計4至520號講得更清楚下一頁 在4至520號那一頁憲法第57條它明擺的講是行政跟立法兩權互相制衡的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5914.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5935.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
然後他又繼續說徵修條文第三條第二項第三款徵涉立法院對行政院院長不信任投票制度但是五十七條其他的制衡仍然是保留住了所以大法官在4至520號也是明明白白的講說這個條文雖然是拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5937.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5961.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個行政院院長的這樣的一個辭職但是在這裡的也是跟前面的舊憲法一樣的是要考慮到他的制衡的原理那制衡的原理就是說行政權跟立法權在這裡必須要對法案有一個協議有一個妥協而不是說立法院可以對於行政院以止棄死說他要照單權說他就只能接受並沒有這個含義 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5963.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5991.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那接著行政院長有沒有附屬的義務那麼答案也是否定的因為我們已經講過了行政權要跟立法權要互相的要達成協議法案才會過關那這裡就是說在這裡所謂的接受在那個退回復義被維持原案的情況底下那麼行政院長應接受那我們根據剛剛的說明就只是不發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5992.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6016.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
倒戈的效果而已並不是說行政院院長要去負有義務要去接受事實上這裡的僵局的局面仍然是在否則就沒有後來的立法院還要再去不信任投票的這樣的一個解決僵局的設計因此在這裡行政院院長他的附屬的意義剛剛李律師也有提到但是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6018.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6022.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我的見解是不一樣的他有舉出內閣制內閣制他認為說附屬是制衡這個元首 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6027.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6053.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
而不是制衡國會 那剛好是相反因為內閣制 尤其是英國是虛位元首虛位元首根本沒有必要去制衡就是說閣傀沒有必要去制衡一個虛位元首但這邊的制衡應該是制衡國會而且我剛剛已經引了4至520號的大法官的見解也是這個見解認為說這個徵稅條文第三條的這個規定就是一個制衡而且就是行政權跟立法權的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6055.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6080.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那麼這個附屬又是什麼意思呢根據德國的通說的解釋他是為未來總統如果是公佈法律的時候那他要為這個總統的行為負責是這個意思但是不是為國會負責那麼也就是說行政院在這裡跟國會的意見是不一致的那麼也就是說國會要自己去負擔有沒有合憲的責任不是行政院要去負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6082.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6094.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那麼行政院院長對附屬的有沒有審查權呢德國通說都是採取有審查權他可以對於程序瑕疵內容有違憲都可以來拒絕附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6096.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6114.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
行政院院長的附屬必須先於總統的公佈法律那麼憲法已經規定得很清楚了必須總統公佈法律發布命令必須經過行政院院長附屬所以行政院院長沒有附屬總統當然無從去公佈所以以總統不公佈就來彈劾總統在這裡在邏輯上是說不通的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6118.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6131.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
德國《基本法》也是同樣的認為行政院長是可以不附屬的特別是總統也一樣對違憲以及程序有瑕疵的立法可以拒絕公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6133.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6161.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那通說也是如此的一個見解那我們4至613號解釋也是認為說權力的制衡必須是互相的牽制而防止權力的濫用4至632號解釋也認為說監察院的任命必須兩個互相合作所以說合作才是一個制衡才是一個有效制衡所以立法權必須行政權要跟立法院要互相合作那麼通說也是如此那結論就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6163.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6170.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
谢谢我就到这边谢谢好谢谢陈一开教授谢谢谢谢各位学者专家各位我们休息十分钟好谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6715.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6743.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好 謝謝謝謝我們各位學者專家各位我們審查會的各位委員同仁各位新聞界的好朋友我們現在開始進行審查小組委員的詢問首先我們要請林德福委員詢問劉書斌委員請準備好 謝謝謝謝我們院長 韓院長還有各位學者專家在場的各位媒體朋友各位同仁大家好我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6745.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6772.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個賴總統在元旦談話時指責在野黨提彈劾案是浪費時間還叫立法院趕快辦正事這番話真的令人感到無比的荒謬一個民主國家的總統應該是憲政秩序的守門人而不是公清變世主親自下場主導整個政治的對立來撕裂整個台灣的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6773.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6797.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
今天不管是立法院還有行政院 院際之間有任何解不開的站在總統的高度你應該就是比較客觀中道的立場來怎麼來解決但是剛好賴總統就是對倒一面的就跟卓院長兩個人互合中華民國憲法第48條 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6799.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6810.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
總統應於就職時就宣布以謹以至誠向全國人民來宣誓一臂遵守憲法盡忠職守來增進整個人民的福利來保衛國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6813.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6836.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
絕對不護國民的護托如委誓言願接受整個國家嚴厲之制裁那2024大選結束以後那總統上任以來人民期待的是一位全民的總統我們希望經濟提升兩岸和平從政的人要求要清廉但是我們今天看到的是一位鬥雞的總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6837.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6854.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
今天台灣的憲政困局不是一天造成的而是賴總統一步一步策劃的焦土戰略因為總統的權力不斷擴張行政責任卻日益的模糊整個國會監督被執政者視為阻礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6857.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6878.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
如果總統以個人的意志就可以削弱整個國會的監督我們是代表全體人民來監督政府放任行政權力來失衡那才是真正民主憲政的危機那如果我們對賴總統整個他在公然毀憲亂政 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6880.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6903.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
踐踏整個法律選擇性不執行的立法院三途通過的法律案還視若無睹那才是對不起民意那才是真正的失職今天的局面是賴清德總統一手促成從上任以來一步步摧毀了這個國家的整個憲政的秩序這場憲政危機不是一天造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6904.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6924.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
回顧過去我們可以看到賴清德總統亂政的五部曲第一部濫用互議權把行政院變成互議院只要是賴總統不喜歡的對立法院三讀通過的整個華麗案反射性的也提互議第二部就是濫用釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6927.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6934.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
因為護衣輸了不認帳執政黨將政治影響力深進整個憲法法庭媒體報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6935.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6957.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
普院曾透過政黨高層與大法官溝通但憲法訴訟法不論是從舊法或新法憲法法庭評議人數不足其公正性受到全民的質疑第三步大法官缺而困境始作俑者就是賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6958.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6980.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
因為賴清德總統故意提名立場偏頗或帶有特定意識形態的大法官甚至於聯民進黨黨團祭出黨祭要求綠委所有的綠營的委員對特定提名的人投下反對票等於打臉賴總統立法院拒絕賴總統所提名大法官的名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6981.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6995.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
只是剛好而已啦卻反過來指控立法院癱瘓憲法法庭簡直就是作賊喊捉賊那第四步我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6997.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7022.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
發動大罷免身為總統不失團結動員整個社會的仇恨對在野黨發動無差別的全面性的罷免民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民也說每週三固定向賴總統開會報告大罷免進度賴總統全部都知情結果32比0慘遭民意的火絕第五步 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7024.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7044.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
終極違憲 沒收法律大罷免失敗後對立法院通過的這些法律案直接不公佈 不附屬 不執行從呼籲釋憲大法官人選提名發動大罷免到最後直接拒絕執行法律賴總統上任以來這一年多來花在鬥爭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7046.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7069.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
上的心力遠遠超過治國上的一些時間把國家搞得烏煙瘴氣這才叫做不辦正事那第五 賴總統現在最大的謊言就是附屬扭曲城火絕拳甚至以拿美國總統的權力來類比 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7072.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7094.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這完全是混淆視聽首先1997年修憲時為了讓總統能夠直接任命行政院長特別將互譽門檻從三分之二調降為二分之一當時的修憲原例寫得清清楚楚只要立法院二分之一維持原例行政院就必須接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7095.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7122.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
沒有推翻的餘地再來行政院長的戶屬是用來負責不是用來否決在我國憲政體制下戶屬是憲法明定的程序義務戶屬的設計是為了讓行政院長承擔政治責任不是給行政院長用來對抗國會的武器畢竟我們都知道行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7123.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7146.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
他是總統指定並沒有經過立法院來投票美國總統有伙絕權但中華民國總統沒有兩者在憲政制度上本來就有根本性的差異那總統跟卓院長想要行使口袋伙絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7147.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7171.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這完全背離了中華民國憲法把自己當成了太上環行政院長以不附屬為由將對總統的制衡扭曲硬拗為對抗國會的工具總統更公然違憲拒絕公佈惡意的扭曲整個憲法的意旨徹底違背中華民國憲法第37條對總統權力制衡的憲政 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7176.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7198.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
以及第72條總統公佈法律之憲法義務創下中華民國行憲以來最壞的惡例為什麼要彈劾賴清德因為他才是這一切違憲行為的幕後主導者就在去年12月12日賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7200.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7217.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
主動召集民進黨立委在黨部開了一場便當會賴總統拍板定案主導了採不戶屬或戶屬或不執行的違憲策略甚至於說要由行政院行政部門來做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7218.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7238.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
最終的決斷表面上是卓榮泰院長拒絕簽字實際上是賴總統在幕後下指導旗卓院長送出不附屬的簽署文後賴總統馬上用總統的便簽來發案給立法院把責任全部推給卓院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7241.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7265.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這叫做什麼 這叫做借刀殺人因為賴總統躲在行政院長背後把卓院長當成黨鍵牌自己裝作無辜修憲後行政院長實質上是總統的木鳥掌如果不是賴總統授意卓院長敢不簽字嗎如今總統帶頭違法受害的是全體國民在財政上因為總統拒絕公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7269.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7294.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
整個財化法行政院不願從偏預算中央政府都在苛刻應屬於地方的預算台北市長蔣萬安最近也呼籲希望行政院長依法編列預算為什麼地方首長要喊賴總統因為賴總統把錢苛刻在中央口袋裡寧願讓地方建設停擺也要掌握整個財政的大權誰聽話我賴總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7298.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7321.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個卓院長卓榮泰才會補助預算所以說賴總統上任以後整個他的高度介入行政立法的攻防的執行模式對於行政院施政方向重大的策略屢屢以總統身份直接來定調弱化了整個行政院長責任的政治形成超級總統制 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7323.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7340.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
賴總統與卓院長聯手推翻立法院三讀通過的法律這才是破壞權力的分立所以說我們今天為什麼會來提整個彈劾案我相信啦 零零總總太多了啦可以說一羅匡那其實這樣是剛好而已 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7348.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7362.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席各位學者專家委員及在場的媒體朋友大家好在我國總統不只是國家元首在民國86年修憲後行政院長改由總統任命不再需要立法院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7363.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7381.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就已經使得行政院長只是總統的執行長加上總統兼任執政黨的主席實質上總統就是政府首長了所以總統的所思所為決定著台灣內部的安定跟和諧也影響著台灣的發展佈局在113年1月13號 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7386.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7387.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們再看看當總統是如何背離憲法守門人的這個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7417.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7443.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
在113年的本屆第一会期当中在野党为了强化国会监督的力道进行了各项的修法改革面临了立法上面挫败的民进党那总统和柯建民他并没有选择和在野党沟通来对话而是选择把在野党妖魔化抹黑又抹红 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7445.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7451.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
並且在114年的2月新會期開始的時候動員了行政輿論還有檢調全面的去對抗國會而進行了726跟823的大罷免行動所謂的團結十獎其實就是要分裂社會那總統還公開鼓吹要打掉異議的雜誌 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7470.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7494.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那大罷免潮呢不僅讓台灣陷入了政治動盪也是社會不安定的源頭7.26 8.23全民用選票表達了對賴的不滿對民主政治的堅持的必要32比0就是大罷免大失敗多數民眾透過罷免案的投票打臉了賴政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7495.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7522.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那總統823當天說到尊重人民的意志肯定民主的力量政府會檢討而且要做內閣調整這樣的話呢言猶在耳但是江山易改本性難移啊朝野對抗持續著我們再看看後來有經歷了八次的復議的失敗案例最近的一次是在114年的12月 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7522.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7532.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
行政院就立法院修訂通過的財政收支劃分法提出了複議這是第八次遭到立法院否決的法律案 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7534.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7553.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
依照憲法徵修條文的第三條跟憲法第57條的議旨,復議失敗後,行政院應該立即接受尊重國會的決議。總統附有公佈法律的憲法義務,這個就是憲法責任政治跟權力分立的核心設計。 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7555.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7580.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
總統公佈法律需經過行政院長附屬CountersightCountersight附屬的核心精神就是誰附屬誰就是要負政治責任這樣的明顯的道理是18世紀以來民主責任政治的核心然而政府卻自行認定法律違憲拒絕完成附屬跟公佈程序使得行政權公然偏離國會多數意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7581.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7599.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
賴清德跟卓榮泰行政團隊利用不附屬權的荒謬手段公然踐踏民主程序掀起憲政危機立法院依法通過行政財政收支劃分法的修正案旨在消除中央與地方的財源不均的現象這是民進黨在在野時期的主張但賴清德總統跟卓榮泰 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7608.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7629.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
卻無視民意跟國會的決議強行阻擋了法案的公佈彰顯了他們獨裁且專斷的治理態度這不只是政治操作的法律問題而是權力濫用的赤裸裸的表現藉由行政權力來壓制立法權破壞三權分立的憲政基石讓民主政治 民主程序淪為擺設 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7631.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7645.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
行政院左翁派執意將拒絕將地方財政納入執行的範圍無視憲法保障地方自治而是加強了中央的集權展現了對民主制度的侵滅更構成了對司法權的僭越 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7646.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7664.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
若這個案例被合理化未來總統皆可以任意拒絕公佈不符合執政黨利益的這樣的法律形同實質廢除立法院並走向行政獨裁我們再看看總統如何不因應長期的大法官的缺額造成憲法的審查機制癱瘓 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7666.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7672.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
大法官有15人他要滿邊運作的話就要確保憲法能夠解釋能夠正常的進行跟有他的節制性到113年底開始有近7名的大法官選額的缺額僅剩8位大法官他仍可以開庭做收案 分案跟行政性跟程序性的事項處理但不能進行實質實體的評論也不能做成違憲的宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7694.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7716.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
現行憲法法庭卻未在未達新法或舊法門檻至少要六位的情況呢仍然自行作成判決宣告憲法訴訟法違憲已經明確的違法了製造了憲政的危機這最主要有三個理由第一個是明確的違反憲法訴訟法未達法定構成的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7717.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7731.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
第二個 他程序違法因為只有足夠的人數有高度共識才能夠形成這個做出的裁判來能夠被社會來接受第三個 他構成憲法結構性的一個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7733.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7754.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這樣子大家可以想像嗎如果有少數的大法官五位就在否決國會多數民意的這種荒蕩性那司法院本來是一個憲法守門人現在變成什麼變成權力的行使者了變成政治的否決者了這又變成全球的民主笑柄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7757.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7771.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
面對的是憲法法院人數不足的問題有沒有解方呢 有喔在4至632號解釋當中包括了總統在內的憲政機關他們對於憲法都有忠誠義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7773.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7802.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
面對大法官的缺額具提名權的總統就應該積極的與在野黨協商進行補提名大法官的程序排除目前的非常態狀態才是正確的解方但是但是我們看到的是那總統卻選擇消極的放任甚至縱容司法機關在違反自身程序下運作形成求援兼裁判的荒謬現象嚴重損害了憲政的正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7804.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7823.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
結論呢 就是知道賴清德總統明知有憲政風險性 但是仍執意為之是一個得不配位的總統啊我們看到他上任以來 剛愎自用 慌常的妄行導致國會的失能 司法失序仍不進行修補 不節制反而獨攬了權力來架空國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7830.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7839.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
僭越司法這一杯政策的選擇而是嚴重的破壞台灣民主的憲政危機這次的彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7840.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7862.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
並不是為了政黨的勝負而是為了讓憲政責任被歷史記錄注意到是歷史記錄即使是必須三分之二的立法院的多數才能通過那在野黨只有二分之一但是我們必須讓這個憲政的責任被歷史記錄權力也制衡也必須落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7863.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7877.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
任何違憲亂政的行為必須要付出代價終將要接受歷史的審判這是非常嚴厲的一個控訴大家想想昨天有一個新聞是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7879.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7894.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
韓國的特檢向法院請求將內亂守摩的起訴的尹錫悅前總統處以死刑注意到這個就在發生在一年前的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7896.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7920.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
韓國的例子應見不遠我們在野黨就是提出這樣的一個忠告請賴總統好好的去思考應該要守憲守法而且請總統要慎行不要重蹈覆轍不然的話真的是非常後果的嚴重尹錫悅的案例就在我們的身旁就在眼前 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7923.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7935.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
謝謝劉書斌委員發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言徐橋新聞請準備好 主席在場出席的學者專家代表本會的同仁媒體的記者女士先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7938.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7963.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
有關於本次的公聽會我想以立法院公聽會的設計不只是聽取社會各界專業人士的意見更重要的身為立法委員我們應該將這樣的意見也透過我們的闡述讓一般的民眾一般的選民可以了解因此立法委員在公聽會的發言就附有必須讓國民了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7963.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7966.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
目前立法院進行的事務是什麼樣的內容以便於國民他們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7971.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7997.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
据此来行使他们的国民主权好因此在这里原例我提供了简报总统克尊宪法国会应首奋计国众无理弹劾做法自相矛盾提到弹劾权我们来看一下在台湾这是有史以来宪政史来第一次但是在其他国家我们都可以看到临近的像美国在美国的历史上多次提出对总统的弹劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7998.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8023.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那美国总统的弹劾怎么进行呢美国是一个总统制的国家总统有非常强大的权力然而相对应的他的权力分立他的对应原则是国会也有强大的力量国会由众议院二分之一过半提出后只要得到参议院三分之二的席次同意就可以弹劾总统这彰显出美国国会 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8024.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8041.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
它相較於其他國家的國會比如說像台灣的國會就有不一樣的權威性它是兩院制比如說美國的國會的聽證權跟台灣目前立法院執權刑事法當中包括我們的調查 聽證 公聽會的舉行大不相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8043.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8067.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
一年多前本院在修改立法院職權行使法硬生生的要加入了聽證的制度想要仿效美國的做法然而這被大法官解釋為違憲因為在我國的五權分立體制之下立法院不管是在聽證調查等等都不能逾越侵犯到監察院的權利好說到美國之後我們來看看韓國 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8069.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8083.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
韓國它是由國會過半數提出三分之二同意後才能以起憲法法庭來裁決所以我們剛剛看到包括劉委員提到前韓國的總統尹錫悅他是被彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8084.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8109.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
也是經過憲法法庭的審理這一點好像跟台灣的制度上是類似的那麼至於我國彈劾總統的制度的演變在修憲前跟修憲後我們可以看得到在修憲前請看下一頁修憲前我們是由監察院提出在憲法本文監察院形同三個國會之一除了國民大會 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8110.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8129.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
以及立法院之外監察院是由各縣市議會所間接選舉產生的另外一個國會也是說由國會發動後由另一個國會國民大會來決議不過在歷史上不曾發生過所以台灣中華民國體制在修憲前跟美國似乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8130.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8148.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
是由两个国会分别来行使那他必须要有四分之一的建设委员提议后向国民大会提出至于国民大会怎么处理在宪法上并没有明确的详细的规范但是在修宪后我们很清楚的看到了修宪后没有国民大会 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8149.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8167.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
監察院也被去國會機關化因此只有立法院是代表國會他可以由二分之一提議三分之二上提出由憲法法庭三分之二的裁決所以這點看起來跟韓國的制度類似但是我們要問一句那三分之二的門檻是76席以目前聯手提出的國民國眾兩黨未達76席那他要如何來 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8175.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8202.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
争取向宪法法庭来提出呢那至于一般民众看下一页罢免跟弹劾事实上是不同的罢免是收回来的权利因此我们看到了在我们目前的政协条文规定当中要全体立法委员四分之之提议要全体立法委员三分之二的提议后才能送请全国选举人要以过半数的方式才能罢免总统 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8202.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8222.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
可見呢這是罷免總統的程序跟一般我們所理解的民意代表縣市首長似乎有一點類似只是多了罷免案的提出必須透過立法院那至於彈劾案呢根據政協法人的規定一樣是二分之一提議三分之二提出然後呢就可以再進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8225.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8251.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
對不起 沒有錯就是二分之一提議好罷免是四分之一彈劾是二分之一因此還要送到憲法法庭去裁決所以本次彈劾案是先後線以來的第一次總統彈劾案那我們來看一下罷免跟彈劾有什麼差別呢罷免它是政治投票做政治上由選民來做決定彈劾它有準司法的審理必須有違法違憲的具體事實提出機關雖然都是立法院但是罷免要有全體公民來公決 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8253.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8259.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
彈劾案由憲法法庭來做最後的審理決定那麼結果都是解職或是去刑事獲免權好 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8259.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8281.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那我們來看在這次彈劾案的提出原起是什麼原起是國眾兩黨認為行政院長不附屬違憲剛剛在包括林委員 劉委員的發言當中都很清楚他們認為行政院長既然已請了復议 復议不通過根據憲法正用條文即應接受怎麼可以不附屬呢然而我們也聽到剛剛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8284.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8313.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
这个代表的学者专家包括陈一凯教授也提到了并没有所谓的行政院长服役接受就包括不能行使不附属权因此在这个学理上我想国众两党既然认为行政院长他是不附属是违宪的那根据宪法的一个安排他就应该向大法官宪法法庭提出释宪的申请认定行政院长不附属是我违宪 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8314.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8329.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
或者他直接追究行政院长的政治责任透过我们宪法中修条文的第四条的机制呢要求行政院长必须下台来负责但是我们看到国众两党他居然 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8330.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8354.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
認為行政院長不附屬違憲既不向憲法法庭提出釋憲的申請也不行使憲法正確條文當中有關於行政院向立法院負責的機制要求行政院長負起其政治責任也沒有這樣做結果他只發表了一個譴責行政院長的聲明不去追究葛奎的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8354.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8378.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
不去行使不信任也不申請釋憲卻發表了一個無關痛癢的譴責文國會決議在我們的憲政體制裡面這樣的決議難道能對行政院如果你認定他違憲能產生任何效力嗎好了結果我們看到的因民眾黨提出的彈劾的暗由他說什麼他說居然是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8382.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8388.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
總統違反第72條的規定請問一下72條是寫什麼給大家很快的看一遍72條說 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8391.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8413.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統應於收到後10日內公佈之好 同時給總統跟行政院為什麼要給行政院行政院長附屬後總統才能公佈啊這像是7條的規定啊所以總統如果附屬了就會在10日內公佈目前有發生這樣的狀況嗎 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8415.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8434.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那沒有發生後面的狀況呢但書的規定但總統得依本憲法第57條之規定辦理50條規定什麼當法律案立法院通過後已給總統跟行政院行政院可以提依57條提請復議啊行政院提請復議了總統有沒有已給立法院復印呢有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8434.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8449.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那請問財化法既然總統在沒有隔奎附屬前他不能在10日內公佈而且當行政院長提起復议後他也依憲法57條的規定已請立法院來復议了那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8451.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8479.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
总统是违反了哪一个宪法的规定所以我们看了再看我们最后总统克尊宪法维护宪政体制那你总统没有违反72条你弹劾的正当性在哪里反过来我们看到了是国众联手瘫痪谴责宪法法庭在此同时国众两党还联手去谴责宪判114年宪判一字号认为大法官违宪天哪 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8480.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8509.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
依照憲法的規定司法院是最高司法機關憲法的權威解釋由憲法法庭審理後做成之那立法院難道是立法院獨大可以對抗嗎結果他提案了譴責的憲法法庭然後他還要去跟憲法法庭要告狀要說總統應該被彈劾所以回到最後的結論我們看到這一次國眾兩黨提出的總統彈劾案有三個讓我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8510.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8513.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
最後三項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8515.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8542.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
謬誤第一他彈劾不等於罷免要76席所以他認為他可以提出彈劾是一廂情願第二要違法失職總統沒有違反你們說的憲法第72條是與法無拒最後國眾癱瘓同時譴責憲法法庭不接受憲法法庭審理現在又提出彈劾案要求憲法法庭來受理這是志向矛盾於是我們認為本次的彈劾案三大誤謬不值一提 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8543.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8548.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好 谢谢钟嘉斌委员发言接下来我们请徐巧欣委员发言陈培宇委员请准备 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8551.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8573.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
主席各位學者專家各位立委同仁還有媒體朋友們以及收看直播的全體國人同胞大家好今天呢是第一場的對總統彈劾的公聽會那我想呢我們應該要進入到最本質就是彈劾的要件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8575.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8600.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
很多人今天講到了這個有沒有違法或是違憲的問題可是今天彈劾他並不只是並不只限於違法或是違憲他對於一個政治人物他如果有沒有觸犯法律但是發生比如違反憲法上的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8601.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8621.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
破壞憲政的秩序權力的分立有重大的濫權跟失職或者是背離了他作為一個總統應該要遵守的憲政界限這都不是有一條刑法寫在那裡但是卻可能能夠構成彈劾的一個重大理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8623.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8635.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 那雖然呢我舉另外一個例子給大家聽雖然市長並不是總統他的彈劾的方式不一樣但是我們對彈劾的精神基本是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8637.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8656.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
舉一個最好的例子賴清德總統自己本身就被彈劾過他當初被彈劾的時候是作為台南市的市長一百零四年合字第十號在二零一五年的時候台南市長任內兩百多天在市議會開會時間拒不列席議會曾經被彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8662.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8684.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他也可以說請問我是違了哪一條法我有刑事責任嗎我違憲了嗎但是不好意思你做出這樣子的在作為一個市長不進到議會裡面接受議員的質詢長達200多天這就是一個彈劾的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8685.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8713.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
在對於市長的彈劾的一個途徑裡面也確實他呢有被判定彈劾所以今天碰到的問題只是對於總統要更謹慎所以我們的程序更加嚴謹然後呢門檻也更高但不代表今天彈劾的理由有任何的不正當這是我第一個要表達的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8714.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8743.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
第二件事情今天很多包含我們學者專家立法委員都談到了各國和各國對於不附屬的憲政意涵可是我們也要注意到中華民國是一個五權分立的國家我們的憲法在經過多次的增修條文的改變之後你難以與世界上另外一個國家做完全百分之百的對比 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8744.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8763.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以拿美國出來提的拿韓國出來提的我姑且先不論是屬於總統制、內閣制或是法國的半首長制跟台灣也不一樣我們要看這部憲法它具體而言在台灣它代表什麼樣的一個意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8764.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8781.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
而附屬權他是要來制衡哪一位是制衡立法院嗎還是制衡總統呢剛剛有幾位學者專家針對這個部分講得非常清楚我就不再做贅述了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8783.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8808.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
總統府的秘書長潘孟安先生曾經在國會備詢的時候非常清楚的表明立法院通過的法律他們是一定得行政院是一定得附屬的否則會打臉賴清德賴總統這是總統府的秘書長潘孟安先生在我們他在備詢的時候親口所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8809.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8832.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以總統府自己就非常清楚的認知到附屬權今天要制衡的對象其實是總統而不是立法院那既然你都知道了那為什麼後續還要利用附屬權來去做政治上面的攻防來去做對立法院的處處的執軸 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8835.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8861.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個就是我們認為非常不合理違反憲政的分立的地方當然也就是彈劾的理由還有很多其他的例子我舉一個我個人特別在意的例子在軍人待遇條例的三讀法案修正之後我想問問大家剛才好多的學者們都說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8862.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8882.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
如果今天按照我們國家的憲政體制立法院三讀通過的法律行政院認為有摯愛難行之處的時候他要提出什麼剛才大家都說了叫做復議我請問大家回去看看軍人待遇條例當初行政院有提出復議嗎有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8884.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8910.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
沒有反過來說我們是不是可以解讀為行政院並不認為軍人待遇條例的修正案有至愛難行之處那為什麼總統在簽了總統令之後其實附屬也都附屬了行政院卻拒不執行也並無編列任何的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8911.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8934.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
然後呢 就這樣子 送進了一份違法 不合法的預算進來 要求立法院要審查而賴清德賴總統 竟然作為幫兇要求立法院審查這一份 並不合法的預算今天吧 還昨天 還去計算了天數說 哎呀 已經幾百多天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8936.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8948.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
作為一個三軍統帥當你的總統令已經蓋在上面讓所有我們16萬的國軍弟兄都知道三獨通過的法律要上路了 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8949.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8973.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們這一年當中的官校史上第一次招滿超收這對國家來說本來是大好事一件在少子女化的現代社會當中我們都擔心沒有人要從軍兩岸關係如此的惡化兵凶戰危賴清德總統說中共2027年要準備武統台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8974.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8998.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那請問如果我沒有人來做軍人的話那誰來保家衛國可是這樣子一份帶著好意的能夠提高待遇以至於優秀的人才被留下來不適合的人才可以太除的法案卻在行政院以及總統做一個三軍統帥者 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9001.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9018.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
的一個干涉之下去不編列預算 不執行相關法律我想在權力分立的任何一個國家當中立法單位只有僅僅一個要求最基本的要求是要求行政機關應該要依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9019.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9044.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
如果今天行政機關連依法行政都做不到而在我國的制度裡面行政院長又是由總統來提名的總統竟然為虎作娼那他當然符合了我們今天要彈劾他的要件這就是一個重大的圍屍以及他破壞了權力的分離 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9045.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9061.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
他或許是間接的破壞了權力的分立但是在我國的政治體制裡面作為一個總統破壞憲政秩序破壞權力分立最簡單的方式是透過他所任命的行政院長來做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9062.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9089.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
所以哪怕是總統站出來批評卓榮泰院長告訴他 你不應該這麼做當初沒有提出復議代表你沒有認為有摯愛男性之處三讀通過的法律應該要依法行政哪怕是賴清德總統他表個態今天都不至於影響這麼大可是賴總統有嗎他對於這些日子以來行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9091.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9114.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不依法行政的種種惡質的行為 他有過批評嗎不僅沒有 他還站在卓榮泰院長的這一邊啊所以今天 為什麼我們彈劾的對象叫做賴清德總統按照我國的體制 今天就算是倒閣了卓榮泰院長下台了 還有千千萬萬個卓榮泰 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9116.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9130.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
還有千千萬萬個九龍泰啊說不定更糟糕啊說不定對於權力的分立對於憲法的體制破壞得更嚴重啊所以因為行政院長是由總統來任命的所以我們今天彈劾的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9132.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9157.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們今天針對所謂的重大的圍屍破壞權力分立的真正的始作俑者就是賴清德賴總統所以我們才要把他視為彈劾的對象而且並有充足的理由從不合法的送進預算再到鼓勵不附屬打臉自己都是我們要彈劾他的具體理由謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9158.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9169.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好 謝謝許巧欣委員的發言接下來我們要請陳培宇委員發言莊瑞雄委員請準備好 謝謝主席那今天感謝所有在場的與會專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9170.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9192.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
也感謝各位出席的媒體朋友還有收看直播的朋友當然要感謝願意今天出席發言的立法院委員但我要說今天所有藍白委員的指控真是荒謬的鬧劇現場直播再度給大家看這一今天的公聽會非常的荒謬而且我本人感到非常的憤怒非常的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9193.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9199.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
提案要延會到1月底的是你藍白立委而在立法院不願意實質認真開會的也是你們藍白立法委員你們還記得嗎總預算到目前為止都還沒有辦法交付委員會討論沒有辦法實質審查但你們的藍白地方首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9211.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9216.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
卻開始在地方集結開始在對中央喊話在對立法院喊話我就說這些藍白立委你們應該要喊話的對象就是這些在立法院上班不認真工作不認真審查預算甚至可以看到去年亂提預算審查法案的藍白立委你們才是這一切必須要負責任的人這一場政治鬧劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9235.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9258.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
最早最早剛開始的起點就是國會擴權法案而這一切就是因為藍白想要把賴總統叫到立法院來羞辱所以在第十一屆的剛開始大家還記得嗎他們為了羞辱賴總統把他請到立法院來問話就硬推國會擴權法案始作俑者就坐在今天的現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9259.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9283.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
而這個擴權法案後來被憲法法庭狠狠地打臉相關的判決請大家記得一 總統沒有到立法院做國情報告的憲法義務二 立法院也沒有要求總統來立法院報告的憲法權利三 國會擴權法案的修正內容對於總統不具有憲法上的拘束力 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9284.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9304.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
簡單的說 直白的說藍白就是想叫總統來羞辱就是想要羞辱總統在憲法上就是不行被憲法法庭打臉之後藍白立委不甘心 不甘願他們繼續想要惡推因此提出了今天的彈劾案但我們要說彈劾案是為了追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9306.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9321.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
總統的違法或者是嚴重失職的責任但我們看不出來截至目前為止賴總統有任何違法失職的事項而如果是提出罷免案也就是要追究政治責任那又是另當一回事剛剛鍾嘉賓委員已經說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9322.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9334.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
彈劾案跟罷免案截然的不同其中的政治責任跟相關的表決票數也不一樣不是你們藍白說了算如果大家看清楚背後的目的就是為了羞辱賴總統把賴總統叫到立法院來問話讓你們問好問滿所以才會推出今天的彈劾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9340.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9360.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所有的彈劾案就是為了羞辱賴總統我要一再一再的強調也請國人看清楚現在的立法院就是在陪藍白立委作秀的垃圾時間今天禮拜三明天禮拜四下個禮拜三的禮拜四總共用掉了四天的委員會變成了選院委員會陪你們作秀的這樣一場秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9362.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9388.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
到底要全國人民付出多少代價因此我要再次提醒藍白立院職權行使法第43條第二項規定全院委員會審查的時候得由立法院邀請被彈劾人列席說明法律的規定是得邀請並沒有說被邀請的人必須出席所以我要再次強調賴清德總統沒有任何法律上的義務必須要出席彈劾說明會 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9390.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9418.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
更不要說這一場說明會是一場作秀的政治鬧劇結果藍白搞了這個總統可以不來的彈劾案卻不敢提出罷免案審查的時程還要排到今年的四月跟五月更不要說如果彈劾案要通過的立法委員人數是三分之二而且如果真的通過之後還要送去那個每天被你們罵的違憲的憲法法庭請問你們難道不是自打嘴巴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9419.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9433.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
說穿了整個總統彈劾案就是藍白立法院黨團不顧民生不顧預算不顧憲政秩序只為了政治操作欺騙台灣人民所以這是實實在在的政治鬧劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9434.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9451.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
接下來我說藍白的政治算計除了在總統談額上表現一覽無遺之外他們到底在立法院還做了什麼事情要拜託國人一起看清楚第一個是總預算最該做的事情是總預算不審拖到1月中還不願意交付委員會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9453.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9479.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
現在人民所喊的TPAS治水防洪預算公共托育甚至災害預備金有的藍白立委還搞不清楚災害預備金是新型計劃的預算如果沒有辦法讓總預算現在通過審查未來是沒有辦法動之的而這一切都是藍白造的孽都被藍白卡住未來地方政府有任何預算動之的需求就請找藍白立委黨團算帳 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9480.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9503.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
更不要說行政院版本的裁劃法到目前為止一樣被卡在程序委員會當中請聽聽看你們的陳宇珍委員柯志恩委員蘇清泉委員都曾經公開的說過院版的裁劃法比起國民黨團藍白版本更公平更可以照顧到南部的鄉親還有離島的鄉親但你們依然不管不理最後我還要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9505.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9534.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
民進黨黨團負責任的提出非常多的國安修法其中有一條包含所有的民意代表到中國敵國去必須要相關的報備我們提案超過800次到現在依然被卡在程序委員會此外有關國防戰力的強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例也繼續被擋現在今天早上看到更荒謬的是民眾黨的黃國昌甚至說他要提出自己的條例版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9534.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9556.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我就問 請問你有什麼樣的資格請問你是軍事專家嗎還是你去美國去了一趟回來你認為你就可以代表台灣人提出相關的特別條例非常的荒謬跟預算或者是我就直接點破到時候會不會是你只送你自己的版本透過程序委員會進到相關委員會然後繼續卡行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9556.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9583.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這就是現在的藍白在立法院做的荒謬鬧劇天天做政治算計天天只在乎自己的利益完全不管台灣人民的生死我要再說一次程序委員會只審格式不審內容只是櫃台掛號還不到看診階段如果要審實質內容請交付到各個專業的委員會送到院會討論跟相關審查但藍白就只願意在程序委員會擋住繼續欺騙台灣人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9586.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9609.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我要強調過去民進黨國會多數的時候也從來沒有像藍白的立法委員現在在程序委員會這麼惡意檔案這就是所謂多數暴力的藍白政黨立法院多數當家是你藍白再說一次當家不做事只鬧事就是你們藍白政黨我也要再幫大家回憶一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9611.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9632.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
2024年的國會擴權法案當時修法的時候藍白黨團竟然還提出要求一般老百姓交出資料不交就罰錢甚至還要求一般老百姓來立法院開聽證會不來也罰錢當然後續就被判違憲我不知道今天在場的藍白立法委員還記不記得自己曾經有過這個荒謬的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9633.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9642.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
會不會當時匆匆忙忙送出委員會 你們根本就不記得自己提了什麼 修了什麼你們不願意面對自己過去造下的錯誤 現在繼續犯錯然後呢 繼續顫抖跟想起 接下來惡修憲法訴訟法 癱瘓憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9649.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9677.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我要說全世界所有民主國家當中台灣是唯一一個憲法法庭被停擺的國家立法權侵害司法權莫此為勝更不要說修法過程當中充滿瑕疵所以被宣判違憲從總預算到相關違憲的法案這就是藍白立委這兩年來在立法院所做的事情接下來我要說那藍白除了做違憲的事情當然不會放過的是自肥 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9679.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9699.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
從民眾黨的壯世代委員開始到陳玉珍的助理廢除罪話再到陳金輝當了一個立委不到一個月就提出代理孕母法案這就是說是藍白立委在立法院的樣態先強害台灣人民的利益再繼續在立法院自肥更多相關的案例我講出來都替你們覺得感到羞恥跟丟臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9701.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9727.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
而我就要問接下來剩下這兩個禮拜請問你們要繼續讓什麼樣的議案跟法案通過在立法院三讀作為對人民交代的成績單呢我完全沒有辦法想像這一連串赤裸裸的利用職權把公共資源當成你們藍白自家財產變成一種新的政治常態台灣人民真的可以接受嗎這真的是所謂你們口中的台灣多數民意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9728.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9754.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
最後我要再次呼籲國民黨跟民眾黨不要再罔顧民眾的意念不要再忽視國家利益繼續唱喝中共這也是我們看到你們在立法院的樣態回顧從這一屆立法委員到目前為止傅昆奇 翁小林等人屢次在會期中前往中國傅昆奇第一次更是帶了多名的委員會的召委前去中國拜碼頭我們不知道你們見了誰我們不知道你們談了什麼我們不知道你們達成了什麼協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9758.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9784.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
但是人民可以看見的是你們每次從中國回來台灣立法院就只有更亂比亂還要更亂就是你們所造成的而這一切我要再次提醒立法院當家做主的是你國民黨連院長都是國民黨的提名人選所以真正當家鬧事真正正事不做搞得全國人民雞飛狗跳的也就是你們藍白政黨因此我要再次呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9786.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9813.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
請你們不要再唱喝中共請你們不要在立法院繼續迴憲亂政請你們主席請尊重我最後一個發言謝謝最後我要說如果在台灣我們希望國家可以強制久安需要的是人民團結立法院所有黨團也可以團結理性和平的討論讓所有相關的實質法案還有預算實質推進而不是配合藍白一直在演政治鬧劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9817.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9829.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
謝謝 謝謝陳培委員發言下面登記第六位邱政軍委員所有的發言已書面提出我們會列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來最後一位我們發言的委員莊瑞雄委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9831.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9858.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好 謝謝院長我敬愛的各位先進還有各位公正人士還有國人同胞今天也很榮幸可以來最後一個發言那我想我今天非常仔細的聆聽各位學者專家還有各位先進的一些發言但總是有一個感想這一次提出的一個彈劾案裡面各位看到這兩份立法院的一個提案裡面其實應該可以看得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9859.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9866.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這是去年的一個提案的時候就倉促的一個提案然後今天藉著這個公聽會再來補一些理由我為什麼這樣講呢你去看在我們院總第14號這個委員提案11018160號的案由裡面這個很有趣的地方就是這個彈劾這個傅根齊跟韓國昌等委員國民黨跟台灣民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9886.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9906.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
当初提出这样的一个弹劾案里面理由写到了放任台积电赴美投资然后出卖台湾关键产业然后出卖中华民国的独裁总统这个看起来就很有趣了台积电现在外资持有的比例72.47就差不多1879万张政府真正拥有的股权是6.38%外资是72% |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9917.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9936.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
關股是6.38%那我們政府當然有政策政府身為台積電的最大的單一的一個股東它法律上當然也有可以不能讓台積電自己去做任何的一個決定尤其是對外投資如果影響到國家安全或者對國家經濟發展不利或違反國際條約違反智慧財產權 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9939.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9953.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
核心技术国家就不让你出去但是各位把它想想看去年提案到现在那似乎蓝白就讲说你怎么可以出卖放任台积电赋美投资去年这个案子提出的时候台积电是1400块 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9955.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9958.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
今天1月13號來講的話是超過1700塊好像是在講說你這個政府怎麼可以這麼糟糕讓台積電到赴美去投資以後讓股價從1400漲到1700這個讓人覺得錯亂至於總統到底是不是一個出賣中華民國的獨裁總統我看從剛剛學者專家裡面也提到的用詞裡面也都很強烈丟臉無恥什麼獨裁全部都講出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9984.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9987.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
賴總統上來以後,到這段時間裡面,我相信沒有人會覺得他是一個獨裁的總統。他讓我們整個民主可以繼續大鳴大放,讓台灣的民主可以大放異彩,沒有任何言論自由會受到任何的剝奪。 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10007.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10028.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
尤其是第二份關鍵文書裡面提到非常憂心說現在的狀況很擔心這個場景就有點像是110年前的中國把他類別成袁世凱說會逐步架空國會解散政黨 迫害異己甚至於中日會廢除選舉 沒收民權這個其實講的都是中國國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10032.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10053.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以也就是說這兩份關係的文件,你說要當成一個歷史記錄,這個當初寫出這兩份就非常的一個丟臉。國家亂不亂?國家當然亂。國家這個亂的原因根源在什麼地方?就是立法院的素質太低了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10055.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10064.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
難怪立法院一直擴權是的 剛剛林教授指教的確實啊 民進黨曾經要提出國會改革我們要提出國會改革後來現在在這一屆的國會提出改革法案藍白通過的法案裡面改革了嗎所以讓國家的憲政更大亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10075.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10087.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
當一個國會改革的法案是連到最後立法院都可以當檢察官可以當法官可以把憲法法庭的判決提出來說把它做一個決議說要無效這個叫做荒謬這個叫做荒謬所以以今天大家在提的部分在野黨今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10096.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10109.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
講的是憲政就問責但其實這是一場政治的一個表演這不是在追究法律責任這個是在製造一個政治鬥爭的一個舞台那我必須要講的就是說我們今天在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10116.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10128.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
決議文裡面去提到說潘孟安秘書長到立法院接受詢答的時候曾經有去講過的說如果不附屬的話是打臉總統那個是在司法法制委員會接受我質詢這個擷取這一段全部都錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10133.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10152.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我去年在司法法治委員會質詢的時候當初的問法是說立法院已經通過了憲法訴訟法的一個法案門檻把你給提高了那你到最後如果說立法院通過的法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10154.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10168.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
行政院長附屬或者總統公佈你要走哪兩條路總統到底你會不會公佈他說總統當然要公佈那行政院長會不會附屬他說不附屬就會打臉總統我真正的核心是跟他講說其實都不對哪怕是立法院通過以後啊限訴法以後啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10174.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10193.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
憲法法庭還是可以把憲訴法他認為是違憲的地方還是可以在一個個案裡面把它給宣告違憲我的危言大義是在這個地方那我們今天走的是一個彈劾程序各位你可以具體的指出賴清德總統哪一個地方違法跟違憲嗎到底誰講的算 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10197.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10223.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
誰講的算我為什麼說今天這個不是一個憲政的一個究責這個是一個政治的一個表演這個是一場鬥爭憲法本身不會講話憲法的條文他哪會講話到底有沒有違憲就是要一個憲法法庭以前叫做大法官會議那好啦那憲法法庭做出來說到底法令有沒有違背法令有沒有違背憲法你說憲法法庭講的不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10225.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10245.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
就是先把整個憲法法庭把它給摧毀掉以後讓你行政部門針對三權分立或者五權分立立法院所送出的法案行政部門認為自然難情甚至有沒有違憲他要送到憲法法庭去的時候他把那一個台子把它給拆掉了產生今天台灣這樣的一個亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10247.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10257.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以這個叫做正門不走要走後門我今天早上聽了很多大家一直在罵其實罵的都是在罵卓榮泰如果說你今天要罵卓榮泰那反而說罵卓榮泰你怎麼不附屬所以我彈劾你總統這好奇怪你說卓榮泰違法亂紀甚至於他違憲要把卓榮泰解決掉沒有那麼困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10274.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10280.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
要把卓榮泰院長解決掉 你就走真正的憲政程序你就很簡單 你就提一個不信任案今天各位所提到的是痛罵卓榮泰 然後彈劾賴清德總統這邏輯不通啊 邏輯不通啊你說總統高高在上沒有人拿他有辦法嗎 有 還是有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10297.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10319.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
還是有辦法今天走的你是明明知道是不可行你搭一個舞台搞這樣的一個政治鬥爭然後你究責的對象其實是行政院院長那你應該走的是提的一個不信任案那你真正要究責憲政究責總統那你可以走罷免案你可以走罷免案那各位可能會覺得說你怎麼你這個行政院長你怎麼可以不附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10321.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10331.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
學者專家只要出現以後就代表又會開花了大家講的又完全又不一樣了真正的附屬的一個制度其實也是在制衡總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10333.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10337.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
一個法令倒不是你總統講的算倒不是總統講的算沒有經過整個行政院長按照整個憲政的一個規定說行政院長來附屬以後總統確實也不能去公佈這樣的一個法令那這個結到底要怎麼結到底要怎麼結我相信這個才是重點這個才是重點那今天這個彈劾的一個對象裡面看得出來很明顯就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10363.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10366.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
移花接木啊賴清德總統也許他也問啊我總統是何罪之有啊那真正該究責的國會改革以後改革完的一個法令這幾年這一兩年的立法院的亂象大家看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10380.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10398.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這個就是倉促修法透過多數不去做討論產生的嚴正的一個後遺症憲法法庭113年憲判第九號其實也明白指出總統跟立法院之間並不存在直接的政治責任關係藍白也許覺得說我們加起來比你還要多你總統的選票裡面你占的還不到沒有過半 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10407.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10410.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以在立法院你最大的民意基礎可是把它想想看如果以台灣個人來看的話真正當選的人還是總統最大的民意基礎還是總統立法院要監督行政權應該是要走憲法的正門不要鑽這種政治的一個後門 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10428.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10445.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
宪判制第113宪判制第9号里面总统跟立法院之间不存在直接的一个政治责任关系总统其实真的不是对立法院负责立法院也没有直接向总统问责的一个宪法的一个权限以上请各位来做一个参考谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10446.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10469.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好 谢谢专门选委员的发言跟各位学者专家列席的所有好朋友报告我们审查小组的委员的询问已经发言完毕我们现在进行最后一项程序请学者专家针对刚才我们审查小组的委员的询问内容提出综合答复那每一位学者专家的时间为三分钟我们再请我们掌柜美教授请发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10471.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10488.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 謝謝主席時間非常緊迫來立法院呢事實上我考試院監察院全部服務過來立法院是我人生很大的一個情感上的衝擊因為我從頭到尾聽到一堆藍白但是沒有人真正對於憲政上 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10489.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10506.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
所謂的社會正義來辯駁這是令我非常難過的一點那至於剛才莊委員裡面他有些觀點我覺得反而還有討論空間他提到說為什麼不用倒閣剛才前面委員也有提到只有笨蛋才會去倒閣為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10508.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10522.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
為什麼要用倒閣的方式因為你已經附議了我們剛才已經講過回到遵修條文第三條的第二項裡面那甚至回到憲法72條72條應於十日之內公佈它只有一種例外就是回到憲法57條 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10524.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10548.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那可是57條被增修第三條第二項凍結掉了那所以增修第三條的第二項它就是復議嘛那復議失敗應急接受那後面引發出來一連串的不附屬不公佈甚至送司法院用司法解決政治問題從頭到尾就是謬誤我沒有任何情緒發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10550.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10577.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
这么清楚的事实为什么会一直刺激反对党说你为什么不倒戈你为什么不倒戈反对党没有必要越除代跑那是总统的责任因为人是他任命的他的人不遵守宪法当然他自己解决啊所以我们为什么会对于权力分立制衡的这种基本落实法治国的宪法正义这么的不了解这是国会殿堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10578.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10606.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以我會認為大家要摸著良心我以前在東海服務過我們東海開校這個校務會議的時候大家是摸著聖經發誓的每個人對於國家是要有忠誠義務的那所以呢我覺得治本之道回到憲法裡面去論究其他所謂的政治動作用政治解決法律責任用法律解決但是彈劾總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10608.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10635.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我们刚刚讲得非常清楚你回到宪法增修条文的第二项他就是复议失败要接受这个人是谁是总统核可的复议他的复议失败了他不公布所以回到72条的宪法应于10日之内公布10日之内请问总统做了什么我们在监察院的时候当时总统是台南县长他被弹劾过 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10636.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10665.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為藐視地方制度法48、49條但是沒有用所謂的沒有用就是說一個國家元首必須對法律負責對法治負責行政權永遠不可能取代立法權或司法權行政權永遠未接比法律低那回到司法正義請大家深思謝謝謝謝蔣貴美教授的發言接下來我們請林滕耀教授請發言謝謝主席剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10665.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10670.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
聽到民進黨立委跟他所推薦的律師學者的講話有點像是法律的呆頭鵝讓我感到非常難過因為他們對於我剛剛講過的賴清德這一年七個多月來所做的十大惡行都視而無睹而且根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10692.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10719.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
沒有了解這些人憲法都沒有讀通沒有讀透憲法的基本精神在哪裡第一個主權在民主權不是在賴清德身上第二個責任政治政治是管理眾人的事賴清德有沒有管理眾人的事有沒有實質的行政權他把那個行政院長當做什麼稻草人 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10721.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10743.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
現在民進黨叫我們去倒那個稻草人後面那個實質掌控行政權的是誰啊就是賴清德嘛你們憲法沒讀通嗎我現在告訴你們憲法第一個我剛剛講過主權在民第二個多數主政第三個一線統治 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10745.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10769.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
第四個依法行政第五個依法審判第六個司法獨立最最要緊的就是責任政治今天賴清德掌控的實質行政權掌控的國家的軍隊特務警察所有權力都拿走了還使用所有老百姓的那個資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10771.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10792.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
講到預算好好去看那個預算法54條嘛現在為什麼南白不要給他審查因為你違法PN類預算嘛你送來的預算案完全違法嘛所以我怎麼審查你欺負老百姓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10794.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10818.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
一兆两千亿的刚刚我讲过了一兆两千亿的经购条例预算两张A4纸赖清德跟你们这些立委有没有对得起你们自己的良心你们如何欺压台湾人民浪费人民的血汗纳税钱你们不会感到羞愧吗我的发言时间你不要讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10820.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10822.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這裡不是要讓你罵的欸我在批評你 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10829.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10847.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
主權當然在民啊但主權不在藍白啊搞清楚我尊重你你愛罵誰就罵誰你搞錯了吧現在麻煩一下我們尊重林教授最後發言的十秒鐘的時間您還有十秒鐘請發言不用客氣還有十秒鐘請 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10851.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10880.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
還有幾秒是吧10秒 不好意思因為您剛剛打岔子我現在跟你講喔你們後面那兩個民進黨的立委都不見了你們的敬業態度你們對不起台灣人民謝謝時間已到謝謝李教授因為現在我們公聽會的溫度開始升高了然後我提醒大家喝口咖啡 靜下心 好不好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10882.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10902.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
後續的發言要去拜託學者專家還是要稍微注意一下好不好要用字遣詞那在座的公聽會委員也拜託大家我們尊重好不容易請來的學者專家院長我們很尊重我對學者專家都很尊重好不好我是針對內習化林教授我還是很尊重的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10903.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10919.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那林教授 特別跟你報告 專業選委員很尊重你他很尊重你 他已經講他很尊重好 我們現在繼續 時間繼續那麻煩一下 謝謝大家我們第三位請賴秉祥律師 請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10921.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10938.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
感謝院長的主持會議那立法院真的是一個修行的好地方那我二要的就剛剛的論述幾點發言那第一個發言就是說附屬制度其實從剛剛的與會專家學的論點都可以發現它是源自於內閣制 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10939.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10959.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那源自於內閣制情況下我國的行政院的首長也就是行政院長已經不是內閣制的特徵了所以附屬制度的情況下應該早就不限於對抗元首不限於對抗總統更何況剛剛專家學者所提出來的論理裡面所謂的元首跟總統基本上都是虛位的那在我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10961.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10979.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
應該不會有人認為我國的總統是一個虛位的元首從剛剛很多的指控跟論述裡面也都認為說基本上認為賴清德總統的許多作為是他們不滿意的地方那從他們不滿意的地方的邏輯論述來講也就是他們其實認為總統是一個實質性的具有實質權利的國家憲政機關所以這個邏輯上來講應該不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10984.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10994.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
原用傳統所謂附屬對抗元首的這個概念所以第一個附屬權對抗總統這個論述在剛與會學者裡面已經不存在了 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10994.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11020.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
第二個剛剛有提到一點很重要的憲法上的爭點就是說針對行政院復議之後如果復議失敗是不是要再只能夠接受那這個在113年憲判9就是我們第一號有關於這個朝野之間權力分立的第一號的憲法在113年之後的第一號權力分立的這個憲法法令判決裡面有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11022.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11031.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
復議之後其實行政院長還是具有申請釋憲的權利這也被當時沒有異議的大法官跟憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11032.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11051.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所肯認所以在這個情況下我必須要再度強調111年憲判9裡面其實已經講得非常清楚了就是對於復議之後憲法法庭還是可以去審查行政院立法院等憲政機關所申請的憲法法庭的這個解釋並且做出相關的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11052.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11082.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那所以這個我想在場專家學者可能有所誤會那這一點要再度強調就是復議之後行政院等憲政機關還是可以申請憲法解釋這個113憲判9已經有做出很明確的論述跟說明那第三個剛剛是有一位委員跟一位專家學者提到說他們認為說本件的關鍵在於總統沒有制止行政院長的作文那如果按照這樣講的話總統不制止行政院長也就代表第一個總統不是虛偽元首 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11082.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11109.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
第二個他們也認為關鍵不在於附屬與否如果按照這個脈絡來講的話既然關鍵不在於附屬與否有時候總統不制止行政院長的話那應該就要回歸到財化法本身是否有違憲的情況所以按照這個剛剛論述整理起來可以發現就是附屬與否根本就是一個錯誤跟虛假的命題而在於說總統跟行政院長對於財化法態度才是關鍵謝謝各位好 謝謝賴秉強 賴律師您寶貴發言接下來我們請游玉蘭游教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11113.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11135.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝各位我今天的發言跟其他的專家學者不一樣他們都是法律專業的不管是擔任律師或大學教授我是一個警察的女兒也是讀警官學校然後又當警察老師所以這輩子我最了解的就是我的這個族群軍公教警校 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11139.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11164.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那因為四十年前我在美國讀書的時候其實我也接受了美國的這樣子的一個民主法制的一個傳統的一個價值我認為三權分立立法司法行政當然在台灣我們還加上監察跟考試這樣子要三足鼎立或五足鼎立的這樣才能夠達到一個國家的一個平衡穩定發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11171.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11192.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我絕對沒有辦法想像到在賴清德總統上台之後我在剛剛的我的報告之中已經爐裂了許許多多不管是他堅持得意志一定想方設法要做無差別式的罷免在野的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11193.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11221.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
或者是他動用了司法進行藍綠不對等的調查偵查其實這都是我過去的信仰之中所不能夠接受的四十年前當我在美國學成的時候我其實是有機會也拿到有工作可以留在美國當美國人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11222.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11247.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
但是我毅然決然回到台灣是我信任我的國家會帶著我走向光明的未來我也相信我回到警察大學教書之後我有一份可以讓我尊嚴終老的一個保障但是絕對沒有想到在民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11249.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11256.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
蔡英文再度執政之後運用所謂的年改然後做出法律溯及既往的這樣子的砍殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11260.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11279.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那我作為一個知識份子我覺得自己的選擇我願意接受我也尊重當年在立法院裡面一票一票每一個立法委員所提出來的年改的法律可是當今天再也超過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11284.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11306.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們現在執政黨然後也是透過一票一票的去修正了不管是警察人員人事條例第35條或者是停侃年金案你們為什麼不能夠依法行政謝謝好 謝謝游一蘭教授的發言接下來我們請黃定穎黃律師請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11310.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11338.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
主席各位委員各位與會先進那首先先回應剛剛陳培宇委員有講到說立法院我看他很痛心說到現在為止總預算國防特別條例正式沒有做那在有點像是浪費時間在這一個彈劾案那這個彈劾案為什麼認為說我剛提出說他是打假球是因為在憲法徵修條文的規定他是雙三分之二高門檻第一個三分之二在國會三分之二顯然這個喜事是不足的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11338.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11364.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
第二個部分在憲法法庭一樣三分之二而現階段的憲法法庭是被藍白所認為全面否定的所以在這樣的一個情形之下法律實務上彈劾總統不可能那這樣當然就是打假球那再來是也回應剛剛延續剛剛莊瑞雄委員講到說這個案子其實嚴格講起來看他們的彈劾的文件裡面都在提的是行政院長不附屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11364.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11387.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那行政院長不附屬在憲法上面的對應對於行政院長的究責剛剛我引用許志雄大法官的文章特別提到說如果國會是認為行政院長不附屬這件事情不附屬違憲惡法如果國會是不同意的他是有權利去提起這個不信任案那不信任案既然國會目前藍白是過半 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11388.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11407.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
他當然是有這個權利輕易就可以提過但是他捨盡求遠他捨盡求遠故意去提一個彈劾案這顯然是牛頭不對馬嘴這個部分我要再強調一遍是說剛剛我聽到與會也有說藍白有六成民意如果是有六成民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11408.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11436.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
不用擔心倒閣之後該選不會贏所以嚴格講起來對於認為行政院長不附屬違憲惡法這件事情把它上升到一個憲法上實務法律上不可能的雙三分之二門檻去打假球這是完全用來轉移不敢倒閣的心虛不敢面對真實民意因為如果真的有代表六成的民意很簡單提起不信任案就不要害怕民意的檢驗謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11438.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11466.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
謝謝黃定宇黃律師林教授身體不舒服是嗎還好啦請多保重身體請保重身體我們接下來請第六位李岳陽李律師請所長表達一下謝謝我最後只有一個論點要講其實在全世界的民主思潮中 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11467.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11481.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
一定是我們要去抑制這個行政權因為一開始呢我們一定是行政權是最大的但是後來為什麼需要去抑制這個行政權因為我們會認為說最後國家會變成一個所謂的警察國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11482.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11506.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那所以在二次世界大戰之後也好在整個的民主思潮中都也好一定是立法院他會去制衡行政權行政權要對立法院去負責這是我們目前所有的民主國家會去走的一個現象那我要說的是其實剛剛我已經講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11509.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11535.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
附屬權的性質當然有其他的專家學者有不同的看法跟意見但是我已經從歷史上還有從我們修憲的過程中全部去說明了我想要說的是憲法是全體人民意志的表現我們應該回歸到最原始的憲法去去尊重民意這個才是我們應該要做的事情謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11537.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11561.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好 謝謝李月洋 李所長 謝謝接下來我們最後一位 我們請陳怡凱 陳教授請發言謝謝院長 各位委員 在座的來賓 還有先進那我綜合如下 就是說有申請者提出一個指責說總統他自己審查法案有沒有違憲 然後就不公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11561.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11589.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
然後行政院院長也自己審查法案有沒有違憲他把它致命為大法官這樣的指責並不是正確的因為各個憲法機關他都必須要去合乎憲法然後他也必須在行使之前要先去判斷到底有沒有合憲比如說立法院職權行使法第十一條在三讀的時候也必須除了裡面說除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11590.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11617.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
有違憲之外只能做文字上的修正也就是說立法委員自己也必須要先判斷目前的這個法案到底有沒有違憲所以我們不能因此就說立法委員是以致居於大法官然後自己去宣告這個法條有沒有違憲所以說這個是各個憲法機關都必須做的而不是說總統或是行政院長就不能如此做還有一點 這裡指責說 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11620.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11642.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
要根據這個民主原則要國會主權並沒有所謂的國會主權這樣子的而是說目前就是說每一個立法權這麼重要的一個是由數個國家機關合作來完成的那4-632號解釋理由書內對監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11646.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11673.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
院長的這個人事權呢也是說是由總統要跟立法院合作來完成的那麼4至632號在這裡的合作呢就把它解釋成為這是一個人事上的一個制衡所以說呢兩個不同的機關合作完成一件事情這個在憲法上呢就是一個制衡那因此呢立法上呢也必須是行政權跟立法權呢互相的完成那不要忘記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11674.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11702.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
極端的案子是會形成僵局大部分的案子是妥協的那妥協就會完成立法了所以說我們是希望就是民進黨的國會議員他雖然比較少數席但是也不少他也是代表局部的民意所以說必須是兩個通通要妥協而沒有說不是說我是退回富裕我贏了因此我就通知那行政院就必須只能遵命並沒有這樣子的而只是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11703.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11719.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
現在是徵修條文它只是說形成僵局因此立法權它可以根據第三款它可以來倒閣它如果沒有倒閣的話那這裡還是僵局並沒有說誰一定是吃定了誰並沒有這樣的一個義務存在謝謝謝謝陳怡凱教授寶貴的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11722.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11743.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
特别跟各位学者专家我们今天练习的委员来报告我们今天综合答复的部分进行就到此为止今天再一次感谢到场的所有的学者专家以及审查小组每位委员宝贵的意见本日会议的发言记录以及书面资料我们将依相关规定分送全体委员与会议学者专家做参考 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11744.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11755.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
而且并会列入我们立法院的公报记录成为国会正式记录再次谢谢大家各位的参与今天第一场公订会进行到此为止我们现在散会 |