| IVOD_ID |
17196 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17196 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026011261 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-13T09:01:21+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-13T10:50:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:48:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0887255d90a3546e073fc5bef4fbee4990a219bd209750d2dfe2eed97515bd4405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-13T09:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。二、研商「公共電視法第十六條及第四十九條條文修正草案」等案。三、研商「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」、「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」及「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」等3案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:01:21 - 10:50:00 |
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説說說 |
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1719.844 |
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1747.669 |
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好 謝謝時間已到 謝謝各位黨團幹部今天列一起來參與我們今天參與協商我們上週院會黨團共事進行共有三個題目第一國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正案第二題是公共電視法修正案第三題是公職人員選舉罷免法修正案我們依序從第一題開始首先要介紹所有列席的官員我們歡迎國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1749.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1764.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
徐副部長 歡迎您政治作戰局市局長 歡迎您法務部廖參事 謝謝 歡迎您行政院主計總署陳世察 歡迎您好 謝謝我們進入第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1772.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1799.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
延商本院羅志強委員等24位凝聚國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案那今天黃國昌總召出國傅坤吉總召有事情趕不過來柯建民總召正在路上我想時間一到我們不再等候我們邊開會邊等首先我們請國民黨團羅志強書記稍待柯總召到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1800.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1812.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
稍等 稍等柯文昭來 請你年輕時候外號叫草上飛啊現在動作越來越慢了好 請羅志強委員 請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1815.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1842.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主席各位委員還有我們國防部列席的官員第一輪發言我有一些基礎資訊想要再次的請教國防部過去一年多國防部多次告訴本席按照這次卷改條例第三條的修正內容受影響的只有十人八村的五十戶眷戶沒有其他的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1844.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1871.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒錯嘛是 國安部長可以直接跟羅委員在直接現場謝謝您的正面回應只有慈恩八村的50戶眷戶所以這次眷改條例的修正當然就不包括所謂的已經改建完成的成功國宅 大安國宅也就是像大安新村 建南新村建國新村 復台一村 電生二村等等已經完成改建的國宅 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1873.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1901.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
沒錯嘛是謝謝我要非常感謝國防部的澄清樓下的記者會包括金明聯最近一直在造謠說這次修法過了政府要幫在大安區坐擁京華地段的國宅屋主包括成功國宅大安國宅大安新村建南新村建國新村復台一村電生二村進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1901.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1926.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
免費的房屋重建要投入大量的國家資源讓千萬富翁變成億萬富翁謝謝國防部這根本就是公然的造謠國防部剛好已經再次的確認只有十人八村的五十戶是遷移不是改建我再幫國防部說一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1928.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1947.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
按照這次卷改條例修正的內容受影響只有18村50戶建戶不包括成功國宅 大安國宅也不包括這些造謠團體說的什麼大安新村 建南新村建國新村 復台一村 電生二村還有他們造謠是全國的國宅全部要免費重建 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1948.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1971.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
天大的謠言 鄭重的澄清我要告訴這些法盲的律師 《眷改條例》所稱的老舊眷村是指在中華民國69年12月31日以前興建完成的軍眷住宅 而且要具有四項情形政府興建分配 中華婦女反共聯合會捐款興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1971.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1998.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
政府提供土地由眷戶自費興建其他經主管機關認定者是者其一我就以他們造謠成功國宅為例成功國宅適用的是被廢止的國民住宅條例它已經不是眷村了根本不會在這一次的修法當中受到影響那接下來第二件事情我要告訴大家它是遷移不是改建 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1999.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2012.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們的國防部已經幫慈仁八村等27個村子蓋好了房舍了嘛 對不對蓋好了啊 答對啊 是啊直接回答 沒問題是不是 對 為了營銷進行會議請不能這樣說 你先講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2019.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2039.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
副部長你等一下可以先來說好沒關係好沒關係我直接講我直接講好等一下發言好嗎好直接講你們後面的一排點頭副部長你今天是有壓力嗎後面的一排在點頭不是不是這個還是要清楚的講好沒關係待會我讓你講待會讓你講你先講完以後我們講完以後我講完以後沒關係好來我來講繼續講好繼續講好沒關係我要講萬龍新社早就蓋好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2048.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2074.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
照國防部說法 萬榮新社的這一部分關於所謂慈恩八尊遷過去 政府花了五億十五年前就花了然後蓋在那裡每年一千兩百萬維護管理費養蚊子十五年請問有沒有花到快兩億然後更重要的是繼續空著未來十年二十年每年一億兩千萬十年一億兩千萬 二十年就是兩億四千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2078.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2102.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
維護管理費一直花下去就是個無底洞然後再來你可以看到基本上我們過去這將近兩年的時間我跟國防部溝通慈仁八村沒有辦法牽進去是因為發生了一個國防部的疏失這疏失可以歸咎國防部內部也已經進行懲處了但是為什麼要慈仁八村來扛這個疏失就卡住他們沒有辦法牽過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2104.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2107.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那建設也蓋好了那再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2108.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2132.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
事實上你可以看到這慈恩八村如果遷過去之後會產生什麼樣的一個效應第一個歷史工業被徹底解決慈恩八村沒有必要為了國防部疏失繼續卡在那邊原地空轉20年30年永遠無限的卡下去歷史工業得以解決第二個萬榮新社已經蓋好的那個不要每年花1200萬養蚊子要養個20年30年40年 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2136.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2158.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
而且萬榮新社你繼續讓他空著房子會壞掉的嘛會壞掉的嘛第三個慈仁八村縣子可以讓國防部活化就可以提供作為植物宿舍國防部也規劃作為植物宿舍啊那這種三贏的局面我也跟主席報告跟大家報告過去這兩年我不是一次跟國防部講我沒有要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2159.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2179.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我沒有要修法我請國防部告訴我你怎麼解決這歷史公義怎麼解決這三輸的困境怎麼樣達到三贏的局面國防部直到12月31號還跟我講說他們再來努力看看上個禮拜我請教國防部你來跟我講什麼沒有修法沒辦法解決啦直接給我這個結論結束了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2181.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2195.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那我今天修這個法律讓國防部三贏到底是哪裡不對啊 造謠造成說全台的國宅全部都要改建要花幾千億要改建有這樣造謠的方式嗎所以 沒有關係今天齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2196.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2221.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
羅志強扛這個謠言啦但是該做的事就要做嘛照國防部說法很簡單今天討論就是十人八村這眷戶的五十戶我提出解決方案那我就要問國防部修法以外你過去兩年給我什麼解決方案連上次政黨協商包括民進黨代表我也謝謝也認為這歷史共業要解決但你們反對修法你們認為國防部要來解決但國防部就跟我講解決不了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2221.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2231.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他就跟我們講 他解決不了啊以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志祥委員發言慢慢請民進黨團發言 台灣民眾黨團請準備剛才看羅志祥委員一副禮物氣有狀這個 蔡委員關子你剛才講說 今年們那個公然 今年公然造謠可是你現在是公然違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2253.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2275.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
十年八孫本來就不是建城 建城給人家換床啊他又不是建村啊你修改建海條例 要來去讓他滿足這個這已經構成貪污之類的條例 土地罪啊檢察官可以按土所計啊 不可以不慎啊這非常嚴重的事情啊整個十年八孫已經行政訴訟 已經都輸了他走懷土地 他都輸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2280.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2295.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
現在就好比說 失憲大法官已經釋出來了我沒有在立法院裡面再開議會不承認這個 一樣的意思嘛我看不出來兩件事 立法院如果說就不像人這樣怎麼可以讓法院亂套 立法院是無憲的權威 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2303.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2332.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以 樓上委員你不推了這台車人改革台詞我都能夠體會人是要在法院交過在法院交過上來做這個事情的你完全自己講話完全在矛盾嘛執行執行八順是不是見改換錯根本不是啊你一直要委員國安部國安部怎麼可能和你一起去換貪污罪條例啊那整個都是人都抓光光了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2333.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2359.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
兩萬可以暗讀手記的啊所以我今天在這裡很慎重的講要為了一個個案為了一個民間的一個個案去修法這不是圖利什麼叫圖利呢我不相信民眾黨敢去跟這樣一個很簡單的法律邏輯大家看不清楚嗎所以我今天在這裡很慎重的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2360.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2386.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沒通啦不要再這樣搞了啦不要共產黨違法你不急就氣得流水就撞可實在啊 實在啊謝謝柯建民總召麻煩台灣民眾黨團請發言官方部請準備我支持羅志強委員剛剛的慷慨激昂跟理直氣壯不是理不直氣不壯我也支持剛剛柯總召提的要解決問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2388.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2414.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
既然這個慈仁八村志強提的是一個三贏的方案所以我們強烈支持就是說一彎妹今天是提這個法提這個法看起來是一個手段這段時間這兩年事實上我的了解一直有溝通今天副部長也來了相關的單位也來了看能不能幫慈光八村解決這個問題好不好這是民眾黨明確的這個表態 謝謝等一下 陳進一下好 請一句話請繼續發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2417.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2422.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主席我可以補充一下嗎剛剛是羅士強委員說在黨團協商的時候民進黨有委員說要解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2447.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2453.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
張啟凱剛剛是這樣是羅志強先說但是總召剛剛從頭到尾都沒有說要解決問題我痛之以歡是羅志強說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2456.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2460.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們所了解的柯總召都是在幫忙解決問題但對事情有不同的看法請國防部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2480.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2504.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
謝謝院長 我先請我們政戰局局長說明如果有需要我再補充 謝謝好 請 石局長請主席 各位委員 國安部報告本部建議維持現行的條文 兩點的說明第一點 本案已經在一百零四年間經最高行政法院判決定驗不符合圈改條例的規定第二點說明 圈改基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2505.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2533.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
到去年114年11月已經累積短出1050億元上有529億不適用的營地周轉金代繳還國庫修法通過將增加眷改基金的負擔綜上基於法律的安定性以及眷改工作的一致性與公平性本部建議維持現行條文 以上好 羅志強委員請發言 鍾佳斌委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2537.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2563.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
也可以請國防部再說明一下你15年前的5億已經花下去了然後你每年1200萬的維護管理費15年你花了多少 請國防部說明一下未來那個地方還是會繼續空著空10年 空20年 你要再花多少維護管理費然後再來 你說要再花錢 請問花在哪裡你不要跟我講那5億花下去了你說未來還要再花錢 你已經跟我講沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2563.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2584.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你先過去 慈仁八村還要再付一億所以我抱歉 我少講一營 四營因為慈仁八村的捐貨還要再付一億過去所以回頭還是一件事情剛剛你講法院的判決 法院判決的原因是什麼你本來按照捐改條例 你去蓋了27個村子慈仁八村放在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2585.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2602.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
結果慈恩八孫因為過戶太慢後來你們國防部內部有疏失有人檢舉認為說這些眷戶可能不符合因為按照時間上他認為他不符合所以最後你們把慈恩八孫扣在那個地方房子都蓋好了 蚊子繼續養維護管理費繼續花 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2604.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2633.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那今天為什麼今天做解套因為你解決不了這個三書的困境嘛所以我們改動期間嘛期間改動就是把最後一戶倦改留下的一個所謂的歷史公益的尾聲解決嘛所以才幫你補足法律的一個漏洞嘛否則你告訴我嘛你今天萬榮興盛你到底要放一百年還是兩百年放到它倒塌爛掉為止嗎每年一千兩百年繼續花下去嗎那你剛剛跟我講倦改基金賠了千億請問跟此人發生什麼關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2635.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2644.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
18歲你已經花了你那5億已經蓋了他搬過去還要再還1億回來然後你還少每年少1200萬你光這30年40年下來5億也有了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2649.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2674.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以我幫國防部努力的解決問題那也是因為國防部過去這兩年跟我溝通就已經跟我講你沒有解決的辦法嘛你只能放著萬農新社繼續養蚊子然後繼續毀壞繼續爛掉你只能放著慈恩八村繼續掉半島掉到那邊動彈不得你只能放著你的植物宿舍永遠遙遙無期沒辦法用那50戶來做植物宿舍嘛我提三營的方案 四營的方案就是幫國防部解決問題啊 以上好 嘉賓兄請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2679.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2701.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好謝謝那個羅委員製造出來的問題我們很困難幫你解決因為錯的事情沒有辦法透過其他方式把它做對那我還是請大家看一下國防部的資料如果國防部的資料大家都肯認的話我們請看國防部資料的第3頁他的修正條文底下的第2點OK好那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2703.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2731.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我這樣說 其實根據我手上的資料目前全國的住宅的平均屋齡是34年在台北地區慈仁八村的大安區是41年台北市整個住宅的年限是39年那請問慈仁八村目前的年限是幾年36年 36年他是在民國78年的50戶他就交給聯勤總司令部來列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2733.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2756.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
78年落成 請問一下什麼時候被列入了國軍老舊眷村改建計畫85年11月78年年底蓋好的房子才經過了7年的時間居然就可以在行政院85年核定的這個老舊眷村改建計畫列進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2757.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2778.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
匪夷所思啊 蓋好了8年不到 應該嚴格講7年他就被列入了一個老舊眷村 多老啊78年蓋好 85年列入那因此呢 才會有在99年的時候有人去檢舉99年距離池仁巴村蓋好也不過21年 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2779.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2803.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那個時候就檢舉說這個不能夠列入因為跟我們的眷改條例要在民國70年之前完工若成的不符那因此這個後來就開始查了查當年為什麼會把慈仁八村列入島舊眷村改建的計畫後來怎麼做後來經過了103年國防部自己去懲處了當時的業務負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2807.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2825.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
表示什麼表示在85年行政院把它列入老舊眷村改建計畫這個程序是有問題的怎麼可能在85年把一個78年建好的東西列入老舊眷村呢所以才會因此因為做了這樣的懲處認定之後在104年台北高等行政法院就駁回了這個訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2827.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2847.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
然後在一百零 所以這個司法上的認定就完全的支持了當時把它列入老舊捐存改建是一個違反了當時的行政處置的作為然後在一百零五年的時候的四月一百零五年 我用個日期大家比較熟悉 二零一六年 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2849.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2876.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那時候還是馬英九總統的時候那麼大法官決議呢就不受理這個釋憲的申請所以不管什麼樣的一個理由在2016年105年之前4月之前包括大法官包括高等行政法院都很清楚的認定這個案子當年在85年列入國軍老舊眷村改建計畫可能有人謀不章啊從開始就是不對的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2877.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2904.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
开始就是不对的事情难道要个案修法来把它变成对吗所以我们继续看到了什么时候呢在了105年5月的时候马英九在卸任前行政院急急忙忙的要把这个修法个案修法把它送到立法院来审议马英九总统任命的大法官都透过视线认为不可以了驳回了当时的高等行政法院判决确定不可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2905.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2920.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
敗訴了然後才動到在政權交替之前要通過修法行政院在105年的5月急急忙忙的送了一個法案可能就是目前羅委員的版本就送出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2921.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2941.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
送到立法院之後呢 可沒多久呢 就是因為2016年嘛 520之後就由蔡英文總統接任了所以那時候呢 行政院還請立法院撤回本案所以看得出來 這個案子行政院包括國防部當時造下錯因的 是國防部當時負責業務的承辦人 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2943.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2965.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
後來經過法院經過憲法法庭那時候是大法官的解釋都不可以這樣做還不惜透過520之前行政院送的這個法案然後又撤回所以到今天我們不是在解決這慈仁八村眷戶的問題是在解決一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2966.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2986.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為公務員可能涉及到有違法的部分將他錯誤的列入了眷改計畫給予了這個住戶一個期待說他們呢一個房子落成了七年就可以列入老舊眷村改建的計畫匪夷所思啊然後在105年政黨輪替之前又做了這種動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2988.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3005.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那現在呢好不容易羅志強委員現在看到藍白可以掌握立法院的多數又想要個案的修法把在105年被行政院撤回的案子拿出來重新提一遍行政院現在哪有立場說要通過這個法案沒有立場啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3006.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3033.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
大法官事先也駁回啦高等行政法院說敗訴啦最高刑啊對不起最高刑最高行政法院都敗訴啦那行政院哪有可能提這個法案呢所以只有國民黨羅委員當然為了選民的服務到現在隔了這麼久了他的屋齡也36年了從當時的7年的屋齡要列入老舊捐存改建到現在36年還比當時當地大安區的42年還要年輕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3035.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3054.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這樣的一個建設你要說他是老舊那其他大安區其他的霧林超過40年的豈不都跳腳說他都老舊了那我們算什麼他都可以用國家的錢來幫他改建了那我們大安區其他霧林超過40年的是不是政府要幫我們免費督更啊這是一個社會公平正義的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3055.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3077.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以我還是覺得說 個案修法期期以為不可大法官的視線寫在那裡最高刑的判決寫在那裡我們也希望行政院要堅持立場不錯的事情不可能用事後不對的方法來補正好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的發言國安部徐副部長還要補充嗎總政治作戰部要補充嗎 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3079.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3093.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
報告沒有謝謝各位黨團幹部我想我們做一下宣告如果各位同意的話因為我們沒有辦法達成共識所以我建議說兩個結論第一第三條我們保留院會進行處理第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3094.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3115.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
本案院會處理的時候廣泛討論由各黨團推派一位來進行發言逐條討論及三讀完成之後均不再發言逐條的時候依黨團版本先後進行表決各黨的幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好 我們第一案我們就非常謝謝國防部跟相關部會列席非常感謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3117.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3121.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們進入第二題 公共電視法修正案教育委員會請 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3152.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3160.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
謝謝各黨團幹部請坐列席的官員好謝謝謝謝好謝謝各位黨團幹部報告黨團幹部我們現在進行第二案延商主題為延商 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3173.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3202.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
公共電視法第16條及第49條條文修正草案今天我們列席的有文化部理部長 歡迎您還有法務部廖參事 您還沒回去啊歡迎您 好 謝謝今天有兩位影視及流行音樂發展師吳司長 歡迎您影視及流行音樂發展師 客長吳客長 歡迎 好 謝謝本案由 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3204.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3221.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
臺灣民眾黨團及羅志強委員等16位委員提案分別在114年11月14日、11月21日經本院第11屆第4會及第9次及第10次院會作成決議,近乎二讀與相關提案並按寫商,並由臺灣民眾黨團負責召集寫商 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3225.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3247.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本案於114年12月18日由台灣民眾黨團總召黃國昌委員召集一次協商但是當日遺憾協商並沒有結果我們沒有辦法達成共識現在我們依照條文順序討論修正條文請提案的台灣民眾黨團表達意見提案的委員羅志強委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3250.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3278.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
今天這個重要的改革是要解決萬年委員跟萬年董監事的問題事實上我們之前NCC的委員跟公平會的委員都已經完成修法了這是第三個重要的提案而且事實上公視的基金會董監事的言論問題非常嚴重連監察院都已經提出調查報告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3278.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3303.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他在第五屆的時候由第四屆就是委員是由第四屆去延任的延任了19個人延任時間多長將近1000天高達968天第六屆又由第五屆來延任了15個人延任了58天現在更嚴重的就是這一屆了現在的第七屆有17位延任 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3304.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3323.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
延任多久 已經快三年了所以第一個基於法例的這個我們剛剛講它已經是第三個改革了NCC已經完成了公平會已經完成了那第二個公視的這個基金會董監事這個延任又比另外兩個委員會更嚴重這再變成了一個看守的董監事會 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3324.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3350.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
董監事會時間拉得太長所以要做重大的決策跟人事決策就變成比較消極而且跟民眾也沒辦法好交代所以今天我們明確的要求趕快把這個萬年條款拿掉就是以後如果沒有通過的不能夠由原來的委員委員任期到了就必須要下來不能夠一直在延任 謝謝好 謝謝提案台灣民眾黨團張綺凱委員發言接下來我們請羅志強委員發言民進黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3353.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3369.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我覺得公共電視應該也要感謝我們跟民眾黨的提案為什麼呢這一屆的公視的董監事他已經距離他該提出名單的期限已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3372.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3393.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
遲誤了將近一年的時間一年的時間不提該提名單不提然後讓現在的公司的董監事理所當然的繼續做下去繼續延任下去原因是什麼就是因為這個有這個無限延任條款為什麼今天我說公司要感謝我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3394.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3410.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
自從羅志強跟民眾黨我們提出來這個所謂的刪除你今天擺爛延任的條款之後公司董監事名單終於出來啦出來啦不修這個法律你部長你還繼續睡啦我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3412.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3437.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
請問是在我們提出修法之後你才提名單在提出修法之前提名單所以我覺得公視文化部要謝謝我們沒有稍微給大家一點輿論的一個壓力你就擺明的仰仗著這個言論條款繼續擺爛嘛部長你就在那邊擺爛嘛講白了就這麼一回事所以沒辦法有一個擺爛的文化部我們只有仿小人的條款出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3439.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3459.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
只能把這延任的條款做檢討我算是比較客氣的跟部長說我說如果規則與你不提名單那就不得延任你提名單了所以這個問題不存在但我支持民眾黨要徹底解決這個問題就直接把延任條款拿掉以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3459.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3485.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 謝謝 民進黨團發言之後麻煩請文化部李部長準備發言好嗎好 請民進黨 請剛才聽樓志強委員 張熙來委員講算遺憾在國會電腦裡面一派復原何來百案條款啊根本沒有百案嘛還如果再成功說因為你提出這個實質化公司改改改法同天是要出城那有沒有導致啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3486.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3516.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
沒有這回事情嘛大家不要這樣用你的哪個麥克風可以然後亂講一通這齊齊不可啊這沒有所謂萬人懂電視的問題都不是那很清楚一個事情啊公共電視它本來就是這樣啊你只要用這個刪除延任條款的話公司沒有辦法讓的嘛每一家公司都如此啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3517.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3540.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
時間到把它全部下台公司裡面平時都沒有 空的這怎麼可能啊所以我希望就是說大家講話要照道理來講不要拿起來就部長那裡亂罵一通亂罵部長一通 這不好啦老人家賺錢好不好好 謝謝柯建民總召的發言麻煩請李部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3542.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3558.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好 謝謝各位給我一點時間我有四點聲明第一就是我們那個萬年董事這個名稱我覺得非常不好他跟萬年國會是不一樣萬年國會他們有領薪水萬年董事是沒有領薪水他們是志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3559.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3582.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
他們背負著這個萬年董事的罵名繼續為公民的公視付出他們其實很不想再繼續做所以他們也發出了一個聲明說趕快希望我們提出新的名單第一個我是為他們證明第二個剛剛民眾黨也提到說他為什麼會變成萬年董事的原因不是因為沒有延任條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3583.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3610.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
而是每一次在選任的時候不斷地被推翻所以剛剛講到的我跟各位回顧一下第四屆2010年開始968天第五屆58天第六屆967天第七屆就是現在前面的每一天都不是因為董事會不肯換是一次一次刪掉一次一次刪掉所以我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3611.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3634.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個3的過程中 到了我這一屆的時候我等於背負了歷史的功業第三點 就是我曾經求大家能不能在我這一任的時候 恩恩怨怨結束因為剛好今年7月1號是公共廣播集團20週年了可不可以在今年 當我推出名單以後大家好好的審查 讓它過 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3636.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3661.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
二十年的公共廣播集團不斷地增加新的頻道我必須承認很多新的頻道各自面臨不同的問題事實上很多問題是一開始就存在的像華視這樣子像台灣plus這樣它一存在的問題就開始並不是我們這一任的董事很差所以這一點我懇求大家在這一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3662.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3681.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我承認是我的錯我推不出來可是我推不出來的原因就是歷史共業沒有人願意在這個情況下被大家一直罵一直刪掉第四我很慶幸我終於提出一個名單我自己覺得這個名單其實非常經得起考驗有一半的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3682.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3706.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
組成是用原來的繼任的名單裡面是原來的董監事因為原來董監事是在三年前大家都共同贊成他做董監事的結果各位知道答案就是果然一模一樣的重演過去的悲劇在最後一天我提出來14個人被刪掉10個只剩4個 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3708.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3720.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我覺得悲劇要開始重演的原因就是我很快會再煮第二次我很快再煮第二次的時候如果煮不成我會煮第三次第三次煮不成煮第四次請問在這個時機點 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3722.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3744.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你取消這個延任他們每個人都不合法的話公共電視面臨的就是重新再來一次動盪不安最慘的就是員工的權益他們會在內耗中度過這以上我四點聲明好 謝謝李部長很詳盡的說明我們宗嘉斌委員請求二次發言我們請民進黨團二輪發言國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團請準備請 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3748.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3762.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好我還是要來跟很誠意的總結一下過去這兩年國眾兩黨在立法院推動的修法往往只見秋毫不見于心往往只看到個案不見到通案 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3763.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3784.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
本案來講以為是公共電視法的問題實質上是財團法人法的規定財團法人法第40條第三項明明白白的就寫著財團法人的董監事任期屆滿但新任董監事尚未產生前原任董監事必須持續的擔任其職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3785.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3803.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這不是公共電視法自己的規定而已這是整個中華民國所有的財團法人根據財團法人法第四條的規定所以如果國民黨民眾黨認為這個不應該那就回頭去把財團法人法的規定整個拿來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3804.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3821.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那為什麼財團法人法這樣規定呢剛剛用了萬年國會這個錯誤援引比率什麼萬年董事會我來說明一下基本上我們的法人我大概用三種類型來跟大家介紹一個是自治法人一個是公司法人一個是財團法人什麼是自治法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3822.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3843.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
就是譬如說我是屏東縣縣民我因為戶籍而取得屏東縣民的身份屏東縣政府是自治法人他因此他就成立了一個縣政府有一個縣長有縣議會依法這些職務都必須定期改選任期屆滿當然不可能延任這是很清楚的因為這是由人組成的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3845.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3867.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
人組成的團體當然由人來決定這些人的去留但是什麼是公司法人公司法人是由股東組成由資金組成出資的人就是股東股東來決定公司的經營權因此公司法人的總監事遇到了整個股東對於經營權有所不同意見他會重新重組 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3868.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3888.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以我們看到公司法人遇到了新任的董監是不能產生的時候經常的是兩派他們透過法律訴訟去處理公司的經營權的問題但是什麼是財團法人在座國民國眾兩黨的委員你們好好的想一想財團法人不是以人為主體 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3889.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3906.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
不是以盈利為目的它是以公眾的資金而組成的一般的由民間捐贈的財團法人捐贈之後他所成立的捐贈的所決定的董事會他就負責所捐贈的這筆基金它的營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3907.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3933.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
而由現任的董監事去產生下任的董監事如果按照剛剛所謂的萬年董監事的邏輯那所有台灣所有的非營利的財團法人這些財團法人等於是封閉式的你去看看我們的教育部他管的那些學校的財團法人由原任的董監事產生新任的董監事會不會有任期屆滿而不能產生要延任的情況不會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3934.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3959.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為這些人不是在行使他的職權這些人在行使這個基金所交付給他管理的任務今天我們看到公共電視他是財團法人他尤其是政府國家捐助的基金所成立的財團法人誠如剛剛李部長所說的這些董監事不是這些基金的所有人他不是公司的股東這些錢不是他出的他只是志工 他只是代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3960.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3987.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
被授權來管理這些政府捐助的基金如此而已因此這些人的職務他就是延續著這基金的管理剛剛李部長講很清楚了這幾年來這些新任的董監事不能如期產生不是文化部的問題是提出來的名單部長自責說我提的不夠好所以立法院或者說立法院產生的這個審議委員會不能夠通過這個新任董監事那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3988.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3996.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
新任的董監事沒有產生之前原任的董監事在負責管理政府所捐助的基金有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3999.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4022.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以我就覺得我還是要懇請國眾兩黨當你們在看公共電視法的時候請回顧一下你們對於這些不同性質的法人他的利潤基礎如果你們要修就修財團法人法讓全國的財團法人遇到你們所謂的萬年董事的時候都能夠順利的處理 以上好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員二人發言接下來我們請張祺凱委員二人發言讓他請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4025.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4029.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
小野部長以前我們尊敬的作家現在是李遠部長你剛剛自責說 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4032.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4057.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
提名你提不出來或者過不了你說是一個歷史公約我跟你講是可以解決問題的至少兩個問題是很嚴重的第一個或許不要用擺爛這個字眼可是拖延沒有如期提出人選這確實是政府很大的問題你應該承認嘛對不對這是第一個點為什麼延誤就是延誤不要不見得用擺爛可是確實是延誤這是第一個點第二個我提醒你一個第二個更重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4059.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4069.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
上一任的立法委員就是蔡英文當總統的時候你們董建世的提名是要跟各個政黨是要討論的你這次有跟各個政黨討論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4072.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4100.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這過程裡面也是一堆的這個問題你既然要解決問題那就要廣納人才開大門走大路跟各個政黨跟全民討論把最好的人才提出來就可以過了好不好 先解決這兩個問題另外我剛剛提一個重點很重要事實上我們肯定肯定公司的董監事都是一時之選也很賣力對國家社會是有供應身為一個媒體人我當然知道可是我聽到他們講的就是很無奈 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4101.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4125.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他們因為有這個條文的保障所以你們把這個提名的時間拖延了或者說沒有廣納各界的這個意見變成他們去背這個黑鍋啊所以我們今天提這個事老蔣也是幫優秀的董監事們解決問題啦好不好那部長你趕快第二次你剛講第一次沒過嘛對不對第二次我都跟你講更年在什麼地方了趕快開大門走大路把真正人才推出來就一定可以過了而且可以解決這個萬年這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4127.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4154.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
把這個條文先拿掉 謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員的二人發言國民黨團請二人發言第二輪我們黨團先好不好 謝謝部長剛剛講得很委屈你提的人選非常棒通過的不夠多我想請教部長賴清德跟蔡英文有什麼不同蔡英文總統 你民進黨那時候國會還多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4157.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4183.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
請問那時候有沒有徵詢國民黨 民眾黨來共同推薦公視董監事有啊有啊有啊那想請問為什麼這一屆你文化部長做不到你做不到更重要一件是什麼事情先不跟賴慶德跟蔡英文比較了 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4184.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4210.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
你就像這次中選會提名出來 我覺得就是很好的方式啊起碼在野黨有 現在新民意國會是多數難道你今天要國會同意的名單我先不講公事董事事 因為那是審查會 審查委員我們推薦但是我要講人事提名 本來你就要尊重國會各政黨更何況現在新民意國會多數黨是在野黨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4211.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4240.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
而來了你就自己提你認為很棒的14人名單那是你認為很棒啊因為跟你意識形態符合啊你當然覺得很棒我不否認你啊你覺得很棒啊可是為什麼你不覺得國民黨的民眾也可以提出你覺得很棒的人選呢你今天如果真的有心要提出一個至少在國會的民意地圖上大家都覺得我們有考慮過可以來去討論接受人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4241.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4266.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
你起碼問問國民黨跟民眾黨黨主席或黨中央的意見嘛都是在野黨嘛各政黨的意見難道不能放進去嗎這個要求又很過分嗎你沒有做嘛你沒有做你提出來的人選有你盲點式的偏誤跟你自己認為符合你的價值觀意識形態的喜好的人你被刷掉你委屈那你到底有什麼好委屈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4267.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4276.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你好好跟在野黨我們一起共同來討論名單你就不用這麼委屈啦同樣的還是一樣啊如果不好的名單可以剔除啊也不是不能剔除啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4285.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4312.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我想罗志强委员跟我们民众党委员是上一届不在立法院所以这个事实已经被你们扭曲了把赖清德总统跟蔡文总变成一个奇怪的对比把我们文化部长小野跟之前的文化部长好像作为一个强烈的对比我想请提醒一下大家因为上一届我们在教文委员就因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4313.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4332.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
文化部提出來的董事人選不斷的被杯葛所以我們改了公示法因為過去的門檻是四分之三難度更高就改成三分之二但是情況顯然沒有好一點如果延任等於是護航等於是擺爛我想提醒大家剛剛我們部長李遠講得比較客氣第四屆968天延任那是2010年到2013年因為當時的門檻是四分之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4343.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4346.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
如果968天就是提不出好人選就是擺爛的話馬英九擺爛的時間比蔡總統擺爛時間還多一天當然蔡總統沒有擺爛我們仔細看剛剛部長說是歷史共業 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4359.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4385.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
以我看到是誰被淘汰不是歷史共業幾乎都是藍營推薦出來的審查委員他杯葛了跨黨派的文化人你今天如果要說陳翠蓮曾經因為研究二二八撕裂族群你們認為他是撕裂族群理由是研究二二八撕裂族群被反對擔任公視董事化其他被反對的我問你哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4385.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4410.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這些學者我都認得柯玉芬政大傳播教授你去查一下他有沒有講過支持民進黨的話我保證你應該是查不到郭立新政大傳播學院院長他甚至可能會被認為甚至被認為是反綠也被你們否決然後賀兆提導演這個單純的文化人你找不到他任何黨派色彩郭敏榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4411.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4430.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
影展策展人這是在過去被你們就是否決掉的這都是被藍營提名的審查委員否決所以這不是歷史共業是藍營才在用意識形態而且這根本沒有意識形態的人只是因為是民進黨政府提名的你們就否決 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4431.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4439.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
再講了企業家最近一次的施政榮他有什麼色彩被你們否決陳湘琪國際知名的金獎導演金獎演員我都看過他好幾部電影也被你們否決不用講舒敏恩歌手這些到底有什麼色彩 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4451.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4473.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以我要講的事情是你這樣子的修法事實上很可能剛剛講的就算提名找不出人選的時候或者是文化部長我在教文委員會已經質詢他了為什麼提不出人來他說過去這個歷史只要是優秀的文化人來這裡被羞辱而且你去查記錄都是被藍營推薦的審查委員羞辱 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4474.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4493.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以這個歷史共業基本上我看到的現象是藍營就是不分青紅皂白再背一個優秀的文化人最後不長找不到人所以公共電視法不是不能改革可是被你這個改法你幾乎變成癱瘓董事會如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4494.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4522.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
你們推薦的審查委員繼續這樣做的話你等於是讓董事會癱瘓所以我們不能夠接受用這種方式亂修公共電視法要檢討的是藍營怎麼樣對文化人這才是在羞辱文化人好 謝謝范營委員的發言部長您還要補充嗎請謝謝讓我再講兩句就好我想因為我年紀蠻大所以我有經歷過黨政軍控制媒體的時代在 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4523.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4548.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
後來大家的呼籲下黨政軍退出媒體之後才會有公共電視才會有把華視捐給公共電視這件事情華視捐給公共電視正好20年中間換了15個總經理你就知道當人與人不相信彼此不信任的時候也不相信自助的時候最後被整到的是所有員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4549.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4572.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
今天黨政軍退出媒體的重點就是立法院依照黨團各自派出評議委員他就已經代表立法院了如果這個人選還要靠雙方來協調政治意識形態來協調那又變成政黨的手又伸去台灣媒體最後一塊淨土 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4573.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4593.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以這點剛剛提到說為什麼不來協商就是因為當年我們的行政院有提名權立法院組成一個評審團有審查權剛剛一再強調沒有人可以審查到968天第二次967天跟這個法律有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4595.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4607.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
最倒楣就是所有的員工的權益一直在內耗現在已經20週年了我懇求大家不要再啟動這個東西好 謝謝部長你放心你年紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4608.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4629.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
不知道幾歲 但看起來精神非常好要有信心我們要做結論了抱歉 因為我非常珍惜那個李院部長我對他是很尊敬的所以我搶著要我平常如果平常主席已經講話我就不講這是我第一次第一次韓院長講因為我對你有非常高的期待你剛提到經歷過以前黨政軍的一把抓這時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4630.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4650.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你沒有發現今天我們在談的就是是不是決策者或者行政部門把某些東西都抓在手上我給你一個最簡單的對照組同樣考試院的委員你有徵刑過各個政黨啊考試院委員很平順就過了啊一樣最近提出來的中選會委員以前不跟在野黨溝通不開辦文走大陸啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4651.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4678.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那現在你看這一次提出來中協會大家基本上是叫好的所以我覺得部長你不用自責我覺得你來是有使命的我剛講我們也非常肯定現任的這個董監事可是我們幫他解決問題你就開大門走大路不要變成以前你擔心的那個黨政軍一把抓那個時代把門打開問問在野黨問問全民真正找到好的人才是可以過的好不好好謝謝張啟凱文謝謝再次發言各位黨團剛剛我想我們就做 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4680.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4681.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
簡單的幾個重要的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4685.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4714.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
保留條文我們第16條顯然沒有辦法達成共識我們就送院會處理那第49條咧大家如果同意的話我們就不予修正維持現行條文這個是基本上達成共識了第三我們本案院會進行處理的時候廣泛討論由各黨團推派一位委員發言逐條討論及三讀完成後我們均不再發言逐條討論保留條文一黨團版本先後進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4715.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4732.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那是本案各項題均列入公報記錄請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好那非常感謝李部長謝謝林浩還有各位文化部列席的謝謝我們要進入到第三題第三案謝謝哇 這一團亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4750.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4762.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝我們進入第三題公職選罷法修正案我們就合併處理依照條文的順序進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4763.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4780.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們先一樣介紹我們列席的官員首先我們介紹內政部劉部長 歡迎我們第二位要介紹民政司政司長 歡迎您第三位介紹中選會代理主委吳代理主委 歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4784.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4811.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
司法院民視廳的林廳長 歡迎您法務部 謝參事 歡迎您好 謝謝各大任務我們現在協商的主題是楊耀委員等17位凝聚的公職人員選舉罷免法第67條及69條條文修正草案及蘇清泉委員等23位凝聚公職人員選舉罷免法第69條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4812.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4827.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
以及台灣民眾黨團鄰居公職人員選舉報名法第32條及第43條條文修正草案等共三案共計四個條文二本市協商三案於113年12月16日 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4829.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4851.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
本屆第二會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議決議審查完略分別凝聚審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須經由黨團協商並於113年12月26日由徐新穎委員主持過一次黨團協商但是遺憾沒有達成共識因此於本次會議我們再次進行黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4856.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4874.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我們現在建議各位黨團幹部為了有利於協商的順利進行各黨團直接針對第32條 第43條 第67條 69條我們開始直接進行討論 好嗎首先我們要請提案的洋耀的民進黨黨團請表達意見 好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4878.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4899.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
主席各位略行人員有關於本條問題的協商民進黨黨團基本上都把反映事實就好當年就是行政委員把所有人擋在門外嘛所以這個根本沒有討論所以今天是第一次討論我們基本上是尊重行政部門的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4900.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4922.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好 謝謝柯總統非常清楚 簡短有力的說明接下來我們請提案還有蘇清泉委員所提的請國民黨團表達意見好嗎 謝謝因為這是民進黨委員楊耀提的那如果說民進黨反對自己委員提的提案的話本黨團沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4926.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4942.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好 我們現在請台灣民眾黨團請表達一點好啦 如果民進黨反對楊耀的提案我們就支持民進黨反對OK 好我們請那個 那個 呃那我們請劉部長跟中選會分別表達意見 好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4943.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4953.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝韓院長以及各位黨團的高見有關於67條跟69條的部分我們跟中選會的意見非常相似就按照中選會的統計在107年跟111年地方公職人員選舉當中相同票數的是11件 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4962.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4988.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
村里長十件 鄉民代表一件 還有九件那如果先封存選票 另外重新計票的話會耗費相當的作業時間而且當選人名單也會延後公告而且會增加司法資源跟各級政府的經費負擔所以是不是請大院的委員可以審慎來衡酌這個要不要修法 謝謝好 謝謝劉部長清楚的表達接下來我們請中選會吳代理主委請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4989.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5013.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那院長還有我們各位委員我想對於針對六七條的這一個修法的部分那如果有顯示機關票數相同有顯示機關先申請這一個管轄法院這個查問以後再重新計票那相同再來抽選決定那我們的看法是說第一個他會增加司法資源的負擔那第二個是會拉長作業時間那不利於選舉結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5014.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5023.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
的及早確定那這兩個部分這恐怕要做這個審慎的考量那期待我們69條跟32條43條等一下我們再表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5029.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5048.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
謝謝中選會請法務部請表達意見代表司法院司法院請表達意見先跟主席還有各位委員還有各位先進報告剛才那個我們這裡不能用瓊瑤式的都聽不見你講什麼麻煩你用金庸式的大聲一點是 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5049.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5068.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
遵照主席指示辦理不好意思這個關於剛才內政部還有中選會的這個長官所提到說這個增加選務成本還有司法資源我們競表贊同那這邊另外跟報告就是有關67條的提案其實在現行的法令下不只選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5069.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5095.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那個票數相同用抽籤決資像強制執行法仲裁法還有很多地方製度法這個是廣泛存在於各個法令所以這個部分先跟各位補充第一點那第二點因為67跟69條都有增加司法負擔的一個問題也藉這個機會跟大院報告因為我們司法機關目前案件沉重壓力很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5096.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5119.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個也建築於法治委員會之前有去本院巡查的時候相關媒體有報導那現在法官的離職率遠高於三年前幾乎兩倍那書記官缺額全國目前最新四百人已經佔了百分之十二趴了有一個新北地院今年要七十一位的書記官缺額只有來兩位報到 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5121.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5142.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
也就是說跟各位報告現在法院體系如果一旦再做這樣子一個耗費的話恐怕崩潰在即這個是要跟各位引述的跟各位報告 以上哇 缺71位書記官只有兩位報到哇 這個好 謝謝我們司法院民視廳的林廳長謝謝您 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5144.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5165.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那各位黨團幹部顯然67條大家都維持現行條文好嗎好謝謝那我們進入69條我們有蘇清泉委員所提的修正案修正為千分之十之內既然蘇清泉委員麻煩請提案的國民黨團請表達意見好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5170.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5190.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
提案人的用意就是說希望說能夠更精確的追求有關於選舉結果的正確性所以原來的千分之三的話如果能夠提高到千分之十雖然有選務的成本但是也能夠更符合所謂的選舉的正確性來平離選舉的爭議 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5195.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5208.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
謝謝國民黨團羅志強委員清楚的表示意見那接下來請宗家兵委員請表達意見好嗎張啟凱委員請準備我們有特別去張啟凱委員您稍微等一下我們好張啟凱委員請發言然後宗家兵委員請準備請 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5210.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5232.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
請請請我簡短的講我們有特別去統計了2022年各職僑市市長候選人的得票數後來那個整個那個比例啊都非常的大所以大概百分之十不會有太大的這個影響所以我們支持那個國民黨這個提案把3%放寬到10%千分之十千分之十把3變成是千分之十謝謝我們請鍾嘉斌委員表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5233.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5250.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
其實剛剛我們兩個有黨的委員的發言其實對照他們在看待第67條的時候其實邏輯上是產生一個理論上的一個反差照說如果差距越近 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5251.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5274.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
越需要驗票那你們認為千分之三的差距呢還不夠要放寬到千分之十那表示說千分之十之內的誤差都要能夠透過法院來進行驗票那我想啊我想呢我用剛剛那個提案說如果同票的話那是相差誤差是零啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5275.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5300.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
如果千分之三都要放寬到千分之十那誤差是零那是不是更應該要來驗票呢所以其實剛剛我們考慮的這個邏輯如果是通的話剛剛應該支持同票就要先進行驗票但是為什麼我們不會這樣的主張呢為什麼民進黨團對自己的委員提出來的說如果票數相同應該是先驗票因為票數相同表示什麼誤差是零嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5301.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5326.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那更應該要驗票啦如果千分之三都要驗了千分之十都要驗了誤差是零當然要驗啦不是這個思考嘛是因為我們考量到司法資源的負荷什麼情況之下會變成零票的誤差呢 同票呢就是規模相對很小的選村長 選代表票數可能是三位數的四位數的總票數 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5327.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5349.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
誤差是零的 那個這個就抽籤決定這純粹不是因為機率的問題是考量到司法資源在面對到兩千七百多個村里長如果大家都這麼搞 法院會累死好啦 那麼現在蘇委員 蘇慶元委員的提案呢他也沒有說是哪一種類型的選舉他是說立法委員 直轄市長 縣市長因為這個選舉規模較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5355.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5383.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那如果呢誤差在千分之三才要驗票那誤差千分之十就是百分之一的是不是也應該驗票呢那我們同樣的用剛剛的邏輯如果只有四位數的選舉人的投票零誤差的我們就不驗了那麼我們現在提到了包括縣市長他的選票數是多少數十萬嘛各十百千萬十萬好啦六位數嘛四位數的誤差零的不驗六位數的就要驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5384.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5410.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
為什麼大家反而支持因為六位數的選票如果誤差在千分之三以內的可能大家會覺得應該透過驗票重新審視那些選票的內容是不是有誤所以我們還記得驗票最激烈的是什麼時候陳水扁總統在2004年那一次差不到兩萬票誤差比千分之三還小很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5411.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5424.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以我覺得我們這個討論千分之三跟千分之十不是在於整個誤差的那個比例而是在母數的規模還有考量到我們施法的實務所以我們很務實地來講為什麼我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5427.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5453.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
小規模的選舉 零票誤差的我們還是覺得不用先驗票但是規模較大的縣市長的選舉的千分之三是一個合理的要求但是如果達到千分之十那可能產生的驗票的一個需求就會大增那這種情況之下恐怕不利於我們司法資源的運用 以上嘉賓委員他不太有個假設點他是有限制他這幾個類型喔好 你有講 好現在我們請羅志強委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5455.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5483.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
兩點說明了我可能想嘉賓兄可能有點搞錯就是按照原來千分之三以內平票的時候抽完籤之後另外那個人不服的話他還是可以申請驗票所以不是沒有驗票啦還是有驗票所以這個是可能法規上的一個狀況第二個就是說我還是再重申一下我們是尊重民進黨因為民進黨的立委的提案民進黨黨團都不支持我們不方便介入你們的家務室所以我們也只好跟進而已所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5484.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5500.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
跟這個你們自己都不支持你們委員提案的話我們不好意思介入這是民進黨的黨內黨派之見我們國民黨跟民眾黨不介入啦但是不管怎麼說基本上評票的時候本來就有驗票機制 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5507.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5532.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
2022年啦 就上一次那個直轄市因為類型有 就是主席剛剛講的它是有限定的你從2022年這直轄市來看欸 那個差距最大的新北市啊248.3千分之248.3然後最近的是台南市也有51.7啊像這種落差非常大完全不會有爭議性那我是覺得適度放寬到千分之十應該是合理的好 謝謝張祺凱委員補充費麻煩請中選會議請表達意見好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5536.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5564.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好 謝謝我想從千人之三到千人之七 千人之十拉到千人之十這個會導致重新計票案件會大幅增加我們現在的這個選區總共九合一有八千七百四十九種那各位想一想如果是千人之三把他拉到千人之十那現在一百 民國一百一十二年的宪判又講了所有的驗票千人之三都適用所有的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5565.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5592.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所有選舉都適用 村議長也是一樣那這會造成司法跟行政資源的負擔跟浪費那社會成本會太高了所以我們是建議說還是一樣維持千人之三因為到目前為止千人之三以內的案件也從來沒有翻盤過那更不要講說千人之四千人之三以內都沒有翻盤過了那你說把他拉高到千人之十那根本更不可能 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5597.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5614.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
謝謝謝謝代理主委吳主委的發言內政部劉部長你要表達一些相關意見嗎我想我們的意見跟中選會非常類似我只補充一下就是從96年以來這個落選人得向管轄法院申請重新計票也就是千分之三的這個範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5615.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5639.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
並沒有重新計票結果改變選舉結果的潛力也就是說如果現在的千分之三再變成是千分之十的話第一個會增加選務機關的工作負荷還有增加法院的這個負擔那就我們從以前111年看到的這個部分如果把千分之三的這個選票差距在內是30個選舉區 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5641.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5670.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那如果把那個改成千分之十的話呢會大幅倍增到兩倍變成六十六個那如果是這個村裡的部分的話也是一樣從五十六個會跳增到一百一十一個那也表示說在這個選舉開票結果出來之後馬上就要申請管轄的法院申請重新計票的話會被造成選務工作量的負擔或者是法院在處理上面的負擔可能要請大院的委員能夠審慎考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5674.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5686.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我想這個本來要下達一個宣告但是我覺得聽完各位黨團幹部還有行政單位包括我們是不是要再來討論一下好吧 我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6191.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6218.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
你今天表現很好啊我想剛才聽到各黨團幹部的發言還有行政部門的發言司法部門發言我覺得我們都必須要再思考一下所以我們就擇期再行協商好不好各黨團幹部那謝謝我們這個本案沒有辦法達成共識我們擇期再行協商現在協商散會11點鐘我們到院會好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6223.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6224.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
你剛沒有跟他講 |