| IVOD_ID |
17194 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17194 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T08:32:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T12:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:45:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcf698f77e6c3706a6df7d11ac893db3ce0a219bd209750d2de39e10ad82ccfcef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、內政部、教育部、行政院主計總處針對「立法院通過之警、消、公、教退休金改革法案之具體執行措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、繼續併案審查
（ㄧ）委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員吳宗憲等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。
三、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。
四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。
五、併案審查
（一）委員翁曉玲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:30 - 12:18:00 |
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SPEAKER_14 |
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13520.09534375 |
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SPEAKER_14 |
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SPEAKER_12 |
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13526.03534375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1738.223 |
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報告委員會出席委員6人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開會那我們首先先進行報告事項請宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1749.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1777.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年一月五日星期一上午九十二分至十一時四十一分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳培宇委員等十二人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等六人列席官員運動部政務次長黃啟黃等人主席莊召集委員瑞雄報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1778.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1791.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
二 邀請運動部部長 考選部部長就運動部組織效能與人才考選制度針對體育行政類課應試科目修正運動產業發展中心定位及多元人力運用機制之展望進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1794.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1794.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請問各位上次會議的議事錄有沒有遺漏或錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1818.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1844.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好 那因為現在現場委員人數不夠所以我們就之後再確認那緊接著我先介紹現在到場的委員有羅志強委員還有黃珊珊委員好 那麼緊接著再介紹應邀列席的官員那麼本次出席的有考試院的劉金鑫秘書長司法院的王梅英副秘書長權敘部的施能傑部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1846.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1861.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
還有人事行政總署的政務副人事長張秋元 張副人事長謝謝還有法務部的徐祥政次謝謝那麼其餘的列席官員我們就不一再一一的介紹並且列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1863.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1888.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那本次的議程分別排定的有專題報告就是立法院通過的警消公教退休金改革方案的具體執行措施以及四案的討論事項那麼審查刑事訴訟法第101條之一條維修正草案等法案那我們今天的這個報告及詢答的方式呢我們一例就採一併報告綜合詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1891.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1917.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那麼現在我們就一併進行提案說明及報告那麼會先進行討論事項法案的提案說明那發言時間是三分鐘那麼這個首先先請提案人臺灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊委員進行提案說明謝謝主席還有各位官員我講今天黃珊珊委員可不可以到前面這邊來進行提案說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1929.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1931.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
謝謝主席我想還有各位同仁以及各位官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1932.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1961.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
今天台灣民眾黨有兩個提案主要是針對新送法的相關的規範我們希望能夠更具體更明確那近年來的詐欺跟兒少性影像以及組織犯罪的問題越來越嚴重那這個犯罪不但有高度的社會危害性而且有高度的再犯之虞那預防性羈押的原因的必要我們希望在新送法101條之一的條文修正草案裡面提出來也列入所謂預防性羈押的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1962.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1985.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有這樣的要件那這個提案今天看到法務部的報告是說他們競表同意也就是他們同意這個案子能夠列入所謂預防性羈押這是第一案第二案是台灣民眾黨介於司法院大法官會議解釋第665號解釋的理由書指出的羈押是干預身體自由最大的強制處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1986.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2011.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
僅能以之為保全證據的最後手段但是實務上勾串共犯以及證人的羈押室友目前遭到嚴重的濫用法院更屢次以立稿甚至空犯模糊的理由裁定來羈押被告違反憲法法庭113年度憲判自第一號的判決所揭示的無罪推定的憲法原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2012.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2031.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
也就是說羈押制度現在已經急需要改革此外在限制和禁止辯護人取得偵查中的羈押審查的資訊嚴重影響被告訴訟上的防禦權那現行法並沒有要求檢察官要續名事實而且提出必要的證據顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2033.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2049.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個制度有很嚴重不足的情況為了確保羈押的最後的手段性還有強化人權保障以及遵循無罪推定的憲法原則所以台灣民眾黨凝聚了刑事訴訟法第93條以及第101條的條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2050.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2075.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
刪除勾串共犯或證人的羈押事由明定無其他替代手段且有具體事實足任有逃亡或滅證之餘才可以羈押並要求檢察官請求法院限制或禁止辯護人取得偵查中羈押審查資訊的時候並應續明事實還有理由以及提出必要的證據以上的條文敬請同仁能夠支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2078.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2101.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們請王小林委員提案說明好 謝謝主席在座的各位委員那麼今天呢本席在這裡要向各位提出的是刑事訴訟法第108條條文的修正案這個是涉及到羈押期間長短調整的問題那重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2102.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2126.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
修正目的就只有一個就是縮短現行偵查與審判中的羈押期限的規定以防止羈押制度濫用實質保障被告的人身自由以及無罪推定的原則那麼首先我們從人權法制的角度來看其實公民與政治權利國際公約的第九條第三項的早就明確規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2126.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2155.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為刑事罪名遭逮捕或拘禁的人應該要在合理的期間內審訊或釋放那聯合國的人權事務委員會也在第35號一般性意見當中更進一步的指出即便羈押的刑事合法但是只要是缺乏實質的合法性以及必要性過長的羈押期間省錢的羈押本身就會構成對無罪推定與人身自由的侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2156.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2170.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那麼我國司法院大法官釋字第653號的解釋同樣的強調羈押應該要符合比例原則與最小侵害原則這是例外手段所以羈押是例外手段而不是常態的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2171.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2190.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然而回到我國現行的制度這個問題非常明顯因為刑事訴訟法第108條所規定的羈押期間是從民國17年立法至今將近100年的時間從來沒有實質的修正過仍然維持現在偵查中不得超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2191.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2204.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
兩個月審判中不得超過三個月的這樣的一個時間規定那麼延長羈押的期間也相當的寬鬆所以這樣的制度設計其實是早已不符現代人權保障的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2206.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2228.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在實務上這也導致嚴重的後果近年來我們看到法院核准羈押的比率是高達近八成那麼羈押不再只是防止逃亡或是湮滅證據的保全手段而逐漸演變成為先押再說以押代查的這種押人取共的工具甚至變相懲治被告的刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2230.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2252.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以就出現了羈押刑罰化的現象那麼這個已經明顯的背離了無罪推定的原則如果我們再對照外國的立法例來相比較更顯得我國的制度是被偏離常態那麼我們以日本為例檢察官申請羈押之後法院原則上只准10天 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2253.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2276.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
必要时候延长一天最长也不过就是20天那韩国的制度基本上与日本是差不多最长的积压时间也是控制在20天左右所以相较之下我国的积压期间是显然过长而且也过于宽松因此本次本席所提出的这个修法有三个重点 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2277.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2297.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第一个就是将侦查中羁押期间缩短为最长就是一个月第二个就是审判中的羁押期间也是缩短为最长就是两个月第三延长羁押期间无论是在侦查或是审判阶段都是以一个月为限并且严格控管次数 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2297.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2321.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
这样的修正并不是说是在纵放犯罪而是我们要强化检警与法院在合理的时间内能够完成侦查与审理的判断同时也促使像是拒保责付限制住居等等替代处分能够真正的被善加运用以落实羁押作为最后手段的原则 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2322.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2347.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
最後本席要強調的是監押制度關乎的就是人民最基本的人身自由那麼透過本次的修法不僅可以降低人權侵害的風險也有助於減輕監鎖負擔提升司法效率能夠讓刑事司法制度更符合國際人權的標準以及我國的憲法精神那麼以上說明也敬請各位委員支持本案好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2350.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2352.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
請吳宗憲委員提案說明好 謝謝主席我今天有兩項提案第一個提案是擴大預防性羈押的部分那就是刑事訴訟法101條之一那目的就是要保障社會安全第二是限制審判中 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2377.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2395.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
也就是檢察官已經起訴了然後現行法卻還可以無限抗告的刑事訴訟法404條目的是要確保法院的公平審判我先提第二個的重點是檢察官起訴後的法院審理期間並不是包括到檢察官偵查期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2396.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2416.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
首先對刑事訴訟法101條之一的預防性羈押這個是一個司法院跟法務部都贊同所以也就是這個部分比較沒有爭議因為現行的預防性羈押還有漏洞它對於一些新興的犯罪其實它的規範保障的範圍還不夠所以我要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2417.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2435.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
修法的部分能夠加入第一個 針對詐欺集團的部分第二個 針對性暴力的部分第三個 針對組織犯罪的部分那有關詐欺集團的部分因為我們看到像台版的簡樸在案其實他把這些人當作豬仔一樣這樣子凌虐 然後囚禁他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2436.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2458.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以這種的犯罪集團其實我們在偵查中我們就希望說對他們予以羈押而且防止他們交保之後繼續騙或者是繼續欺負這些被害人第二個性暴力的部分我們看到像創意私房 台版N號房等等的這些數位性暴力的犯罪這些人 被害人其實很大比例可能是我們的好朋友或小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2459.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2483.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那這些案子被害人最怕的就是被告交保之後繼續散佈這些私密的影像所以我們希望透過羈押去斬斷他們的犯罪工具第三個對於組織犯罪很多幫派的火拼 恐嚇其實它是具備高度的暴力以及反覆實施的狀況所以我認為這個必須要加入到預防性羈押裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2484.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2503.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個修法的目的其實就是要保障每一位國人尤其是針對這些比較容易反覆實施的案件我們希望能夠擴大預防性羈押對於人民保障的範圍第二個我們要談的是刑事訴訟法404條也就是案件起訴之後要限制檢方的抗告權 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2505.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2524.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我看法務部的報告是反對這次的修法他認為說會阻礙真實發現也就是會妨礙檢察官去發現真相但是我覺得這句話完全不合理而且是完全自我否定檢察官的職責我的草案是針對起訴後審判中我剛剛已經強調了不包括起訴前 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2525.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2542.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那法務部呢各位檢察官因為經過長時間的調查終於把被告破獲而且當時在偵查中也羈押了偵查中羈押有四個月那既然已經起訴了其實理論上已經依照刑事訴訟法規定代表你們已經收證完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2543.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2559.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那這時候為什麼還會有這個發現真實障礙的問題呢那如果會認為有發現真實障礙的可能性就只有兩個嘛也就是說你們起訴前就沒有查清楚而是草率起訴這是第一個第二個你們想靠壓人取共來逼他認罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2561.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2588.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
但是如果押人取供這個不是司法爭議這是凝虐的所以甚至去年在法官論壇裡面只有法官進得去的法官論壇也有很多批評的聲音他們認為說案子竟然已經起訴了審理中羈押與否這個就是法官來決定就可以檢察官在這個時候該做的事情是你起訴的時候你再交給法院人犯交給法院法官接押的時候你必須在那個時候要把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2589.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2605.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
被告需要繼續接押的理由寫清楚就好或者是你要實質的到庭論告現在很多檢察官起訴了就把卷證資料丟給書記官然後書記官去把卷證和人移到法院去然後法官在開庭審理要不要接押的時候檢察官根本不到庭啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2606.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2635.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個是現在的問題嘛那你不到庭你不去告訴法官他有接押的必要性後來法官沒有押了你又出來跳腳說要趕快抗告所以這個部分呢我們認為說檢察官既然你起訴那一天其實代表你偵查已經終結了那個時候你就應該要把相關的證據資料交給法官那不能說法官要不要押人你說這跟真實發現有關我覺得這個是否定掉刑事訴訟法裡面對於檢察官自我的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2636.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2657.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以是去年在法官論壇裡面很多法官就在批評這個制度他認為說不應該讓法院審理的時候檢察官在法院審理的時候還有抗告權因為這一次一次的這樣子抗告而且是無限制的無抗告期限無抗告次數限制的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2658.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2678.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
無限的迴旋其實是架空法官的獨立審判而且是逼著法官你一定要給我押因為你不押我就繼續抗告抗告到有一天你煩了那有一些法官也認為這個無限的抗告其實也侵害了他獨立審判讓他沒有辦法花心思在審理上面而是整天在看這個抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2680.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2697.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以這個部分我們希望說這也要來修改而且不應該因為無限期的抗告而讓整個訴訟的制度拖慢所以我們希望檢察官是用證據來說服法官而不是在程序上面一直吵一直抗告然後搞到法官改口為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2698.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2720.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
否則無限抗告其實就是一種無限的施壓所以我要求修法不是削弱檢察官的權限而是我希望把羈押放到刑事訴訟法上的正確的位置這個沒有侵害檢察官的權利所以我希望第一個起訴的時候檢察官就必須把羈押必要性說清楚你擔心有逃亡串證再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2721.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2745.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
等等的問題 第一個你要具體說明第二個 起訴接押庭的時候檢察官要去實質的攻防你如果你不去倒庭 法官放人那是你自己不願意努力那怪不了任何人 所以當接押庭的時候檢察官要倒庭 自己把話說清楚那辯方也能夠當庭的回應這樣子才是對的 然後讓法官聽完做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2746.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2774.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有意义的下一个裁定第三个审判中的羁押决定是回归法官公平审判才是正道我们不能让这个程序是无限循环所以我今天提了两个案子就是第一个透过预防性羁押来保护社会安全第二个我们要透过限制无限期的无限的判告次数我们来保障审判的公平那我认为该押的就押该处理的犯罪就用力的处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2775.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2800.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
社會正義展現就在這個地方我們不要用壓人來取共我們要展現的是司法的正義好 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那麼接下來我們先確定會議記錄那麼由於議事錄在之前就已經宣讀完畢 尚未確定所以我們就現在先確定議事錄請問各位委員上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2801.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2808.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
沒有 那麼我們就一時錄確定那接下來我們再請林倩琦委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2817.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2836.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席福輝同仁媒體朋友大家好本席在今天提出了刑事訴訟法第108條修正的草案回應我國羈押制度長期存在的一個結構性的問題也就是羈押期過長這整個羈押過長的狀態已經逐漸偏離了例外手段的定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2837.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2845.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
而且有一種刑罰化之餘現行的第108條關於羈押期間的規定是從民國17年制定以來將近100年沒有修正依照現行的法制羈押中羈押最長可以達2個月然後審判中可達3個月並得延長但是現在整個刑事訴訟程序也日益複雜案件審理的期程拉長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2863.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2881.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那麼實務上羈押核准率已經也高達了八成以上那麼羈押變成不再是例外而漸漸成為常態那導致被告在未經定罪前及長期受到剝奪人身的自由實質是侵害無罪推定的一個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2882.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2904.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那麼依照公民與政治權利國際公約第九條第三項以及聯合國人權事務委員會一般性意見第三十五條羈押應該僅限於具體且必要之情形被羈押者應於合理期間受審判或獲釋那麼我國已經將公約國內法化那麼羈押制度應該要與國際人權標準來接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2908.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2935.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以本案在這個將偵查中那個羈押過長的期間由兩個月來縮短為一個月那麼審判中由三個月來縮短為兩個月並且同步縮短延長羈押之期間落實比例原則與最小侵害原則那麼請各位同仁能夠支持本案讓國家在追溯犯罪的同時也要嚴守人身自由與無罪推論的憲法界限以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2938.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2965.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
是 謝謝林委員好 那麼接下來我們就請機關代表報告那每位發言時間三分鐘因為本期看了今天大家的幾個包含考試院司法院權序部人事行政總署和法務部所提的書面報告那麼考試院和人事行政總署的報告其實大部分也都是以權序部的為準那麼所以我想接下來我們就請權序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2966.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2982.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
部長報告然後緊接著就是司法院的王梅英副秘書長和法務部的徐錫翔次長就三位來進行專案報告進行書面的口頭報告那其餘的報告內容我們就列入公報記錄好 謝謝那首先先請市部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2989.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3008.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
主席 各位委員今天我想本部僅就有關退休金改革法案通過以後部裡面實際執行的狀況做一個扼壓的報告先報告是前面的警察人警察條例35條在去年的4月修正通過以後因為這中間有一些跟內政部討論的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3009.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3029.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
一個一個一個過程所以我們大概本部在去年6月就開始進行執行這一個新的修正法案的一個作業的方式包括應該必須要重新審定大概快4萬位4萬個警察的這個重新的一個退休審定函那我們需要開發新的作業系統各式各樣進行所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3030.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3051.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
部裡面也在去年到本會報告我們部裡面有說大概用半年的時間說我們也是在去年12月16號就把這個事情函請所有的機關進行這個把我們的審定函轉發給相對的這個當事人在去年就完全已經完成這個工作那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3053.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3079.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
在去年底通過了這個公教人員的這個退休金的這個法條37條38條跟67條修正案本部也是秉持一樣的一個原則那我們就開始在今年的1月2號下通函給所有的這個機關說明說這個這個事情本部會執行一個一個措施因為這個法例通過以後並新修正的法條規定並沒有指明這個生效日期也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3080.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3095.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
修正最後一條 另訂實施日期所以本部根據中央法規標準法的一個概念也是通案的一個方式我們就是以生效後的三天作為實施日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3095.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3117.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那根據這個14日期完以後呢我們就大概也需要進行相關的作業那有些已經在14日期以前已經完成退休我們就會重新審定這大概會有18萬人那我們一樣要進行這個系統作業的一個開發那跟前面的慣例一樣我們大概預計也會在半年裡面把這個事情做一個完成那我們要重新發出這個審定函 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3118.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3144.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
至於說新法實施完以後會陸續也有人辦理退休我們根據新法來進行審定案我們會用新的等開發系統做完以後一次發出審定案然後進行後面相關的規定作業我想這個部分本部一向是根據通過了法律來執行應該做的事情以上跟委員會做報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3147.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3152.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
好 謝謝施普長那接下來我們請王梅英副部長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3158.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3186.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好主席各位委員各位先進大家早安那本院就相關的修正草案之報告如下敬請指教第一個就委員陳培宇等16人拟據了刑訴101-1條文的修正案這個部分是關於預防性羈押的那本院在114年9月18號已經函送行政院會嫌相關的修正草案那也做了相類的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3186.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3211.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
因此貴委員之提案本院敬表尊重第二審查委員吳宗憲等17人拟據刑訴404條文修正案本院釋字665號解釋對於檢察官就法院所為的停止羈押裁定的抗告以做成核限性的解釋本院在114年12月下旬也召開了諮詢委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3214.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3236.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
与会的专家学者对于现行法呢大部分都是表示认同的另外外国法律德国美国日本的法治呢都没有限制这一个部分检察官的抗告权第三审查台湾民众党党团拟据了刑诉93条及101条条文的修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3237.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3243.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
第一點 93條文字部分的修正意見如報告內容 第二 101條部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3246.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3270.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
修正草案刪除羈押原因勾串共犯或是證人的部分本院在釋字第665號就勾串共犯或證人的羈押原因做過審查並未認為有違憲的疑慮如果刪除對於組織性的詐欺集團等的犯罪恐將無從追查隱晦不明的潛在共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3271.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3294.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
及事實再來從外國立法例看幾乎所有歐盟的國家包括德國在內還有日本的法治也都是採取了相同類似的立法例那此部分見請再酌委員所提的檢察官應到場的部分試涉檢察官人力配置本院尊重貴院及法務部政策形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3296.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3311.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
再来病案审查委员翁晓琳等20人拟去的刑诉108条条文的修正案现行法关于积压的期间呢符合实务的需求而且兼顾了人权的保障并没有过长的疑虑 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3312.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3339.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那和其他先進國家相較我國的羈押期間也沒有過長德國羈押期間六個月符合要件的時候可以延長每三個月審查沒有次數期間限制日本在審判期間羈押期限兩個月延長一個月在列舉的要件情況超過一個月一次的情形也是沒有羈押期間及次數限制那其他想如報告所記載 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3340.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3353.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因此此部分修正見請再酌 以上報告敬請各位委員還有先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝王蜂蜜 那接下來我們請法務部的徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3360.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3368.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會並案審查及審查刑事訴訟法第93條101條第101條之一第108條第404條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3380.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3393.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
僅代表本部列席報告並被質詢那知就個案報告如下一 陳委員培餘等16人提案本部競表同意為兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第36條第4項第5項 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3395.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3413.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
第三十八條第三項第四項規定呢是否一併納入預防性羈押室友健行參酌第二台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正形式說法第一百零一條之一部分本部競表贊成贊同第三吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3414.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3440.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
等二十二人提案本部竟表同意為兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第三十六條第一項第二項第三項第四項第五項是否修正為第三十六條第一項至第五項以符合法治體例敬請參酌第四吳委員中線等十七人提案草案限制檢察官於審判中對被告強制處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3444.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3470.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
之抗告權這將削弱檢察官與刑事訴訟法訴訟的制衡功能使上級法院無法監督下級審裁定且程序過度向被告傾斜一旦法院裁定失當檢察官無從救濟可能導致被告逃亡或串證重創司法公信力那另外德日立法律也為也均有保障檢察官與審判中 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3471.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3474.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
的救濟權意見現行規定並無不當進行參酌剛才吳宗憲委員有特別提到說審判中檢察官疑審的時候對於限制檢察官的抗告權的部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3491.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3512.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
本部的報告裡面有寫到會妨礙真實的發現我想這裡澄清一下我們本部的報告裡面並沒有這項的記載本部所要主張的是以審以後法官的裁定我們要有抗告權針對的是以審以後我們為了防止被告會逃亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3513.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3518.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
或者是繼續有串證的行為才會踐行說有一定的繼續羈押的一個裁定並不是為了發現真實因為本來真實的部分在我們疑審的時候檢察官都已經做確認了不會有剛才吳委員所提的說怎麼會到疑審的時候事實都還沒有確認我想這個本部報告裡面並沒有一併做澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3537.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3548.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那第五 台灣民眾黨團的提案 括弧一刑事作法第九十二條第二項規定呢並沒有妨礙被告訴訟權之餘 建請維持現行規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3550.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3566.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那第二刪除刑訴法第101條勾串共犯或證人之餘的羈押要件將使被告可以輕易的威脅利誘證人或共犯那規避法律制裁讓檢察官無法即時保全證據強害犯罪增審的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3567.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3587.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
目前沒有替代實施可預防勾串若刪除該羈押室友將嚴重阻礙重大犯罪的溯源斷根又現行羈押規定有嚴格的法律要件故落實法官保留制度已經可以充分保障被告基本人權應無修正必要那第三 瓜福 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3589.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3607.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
現行實務運作上多數的重大案情複雜的案件檢察官本會到庭來陳述又對於案情的明確或者是輕微者檢察官到庭與否無異於法院羈押審查跟被告人權之保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3608.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3631.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
四 草案要求檢察官應於法院審理羈押案件時到場 盡請在座第六 翁委員 小林等20人提案草案全面縮減羈押 延押期限 進行慎著聯合國人權委員會跟歐洲人權公約 均強調合理期間應依個案具體的情形判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3632.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3654.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
並非侷限於固定的天數各國羈押期間各有不同相較之下我國羈押期間並非不合理那且我國羈押制度歷經多次的國際人權專家審查跟司法院解釋也未曾被指預約合理期間再來目前重大犯罪具有組織性跨國性跟高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3655.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3678.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
科技化的特徵顯非短時間羈押可以完成修正跟釐清為了維護真審的效能跟社會的安全應無修法必要那DC林委員 倩琦等21人提案也是全面修正羈押延壓期限本部理由同情 敬請慎著以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝徐市長那麼機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3684.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3709.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
均已報告完畢那相關書面內容就請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那麼接下來我們就開始進行詢答那由於詢答後會再進行法案的審查所以詢例就是本會委員詢答的時間6分鐘必要的時候得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半截止發言登記首先先請登記第一位的羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3715.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3738.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
有請全序部人事行政總署警政署消防署好 請這些單位的首長請面臨 請好委員長想請教施部長你知道2023年屏東民洋工廠爆炸有多少消防員殉職 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3739.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3762.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
有幾位消防員 確定的數字好像是五六位是不是 我不是那麼精確消防署 幾位消防員殉職 民洋工廠爆炸大概應該是六位 四位2018年桃園浸棚公司火警 幾位消防員殉職 請問部長請問消防署 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3771.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3799.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
不好意思因为比较不清楚大家应该有六位吧六位我印象很深刻我们这些打火弟兄在火场上为了救人冲锋陷阵最后牺牲生命他们牺牲之后我们中央官员是排排站都去攻击了嘛对不对部长对嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3801.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3813.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
但是很遺憾今天公祭明天忘記我想請教我們消防署過去十年來我們多少消防打火弟兄因公殉職 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3817.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3836.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
訓詞的部分大概也有十多位以上十多位以上我看到數字都不太一致也有寫二十幾位的因為詳細的部分你再把數字準備給我那有多少人受傷或失能這部分還要再統計一下數百位有對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3840.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3846.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
差不多 數百位有了有想請問我們那個警政署警政署我先請問部長你有看到台北車站隨機殺人事件對不對有報導誰制服暴徒然後追擊暴徒然後保障市民安全是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3865.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3880.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我想是我們的很多警察同仁還有一般市民都有做這個事情那我想請教我們的警政署我們過去10年有多少我們的警察同仁因公殉職我們這邊有統計從100年到現在有16位多少因為因公受傷或失能 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3890.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3918.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
商場的部分從100年到現在商場如果說私能的部分我們沒有再細分出來不過針對商場100年到14年的現在13000多人是商場受傷跟商場我想要請教部長在我們各類的公務人員當中錦霄英工殉職商場人數都遠遠高於其他的公務人員比例對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3920.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3945.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
絕對的數字應該是一定的嘛因為他們工作危險嘛對不對那你也知道因為區域情勢緊張像我們的警校不但平時要維護我們國人的生命財產安全他們還要被當成第二陸軍跟軍人一起演訓甚至戰爭的時候也可能成為第一線的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3946.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3974.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個應該是現在寶二好像被賦予有一部分這樣的任務不是所有的警察當然我印象中應該是寶二來 請我們的警政事務我們目前寶二它是有在防護關鍵基礎設施的一些機關非常謝謝也有負責我們的國家安全任務它算是關鍵基礎建設那也是國家安全任務是 它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3976.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4005.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
住地的安全好 谢谢啦我要特别讲请问我们部长助农肆虐的时候是谁在保护你我的安全部长是消防同仁吗暴徒杀人的时候是谁在保护你我安全部长这时候警察依法必须要做的事情敌人来犯时是谁在保护你我的安全是国军国军地下 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4007.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4035.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
但是呢當我們需要他保護的時候我們非常敬重我們的打火弟兄警察弟兄跟國軍弟兄可是呢當我們該給他的尊嚴該給他的退休保障該提高的待遇立法院給了請問部長立法院三讀通過法律請問群衆部請問考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4036.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4049.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
有執行嗎我們有執行我們的責任就是要依法發出審定非常好 依法發出審定我們的景銷的退休的所謂的所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4051.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4072.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那我們提高退休保障立法院通過了請問現在警校我們領得到嗎我們的部的角色根據我們的主管角色我們就發出審定函發出審定函啊來來來去年一月三一月三讀通過總統四月公佈生效那我想請問你發審定函給相關人員什麼時候發的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4073.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4100.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
在去年年底有沒有依法給付還是照舊法給付我們根據原來的退伏法的謝謝你啊繼續給謝謝你啊舊法啦新法我們今天提高的你有按照新法嗎那是要另外編預算我知道謝謝你啊你也就直接告訴大家嘛就是賴清德不編啊我沒有罵你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4101.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4130.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
你講的對你做不到是什麼我們立法院挺軍人 挺警消 挺公教但是你全序部考試院做不到的原因是什麼三讀通過法 你做不到的原因是什麼是你全序部的問題嗎你只負責審定啦是誰的問題就是我們現在這個政府踩軍人 踩公教 踩警消啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4132.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4157.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我剛講過發生火警火災的時候打火弟兄衝到火場去來去馳援犧牲生命我看到所有中央官員排排站啊全部去攻擊啊非常好啊攻擊完就忘記啊今天立法院記得我們軍人公教跟警校對國家的付出 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4159.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4169.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
覺得他們應該要得到該有的尊嚴跟保障所以我們三讀通過的法律就鐵石心腸的賴清德鐵石心腸的卓榮泰就是劇編按照立法院通過的預算然後每天民進黨就開始在外面講什麼叫巨神總預算是你劇編合法預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4188.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4217.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你不編合法預算你欺負軍人 警消公教我們立法院怎麼去審這個預算所以我真的還是拜託我們賴清德總統也拜託卓榮泰院長當一個政府的首長三顆柔軟的心不多啦對軍人柔軟的心啦對警消柔軟的心啦對公教柔軟的心啦謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4251.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4278.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我們先請翁曉琳委員 翁昭瑋好 謝謝主席那麼首先我想先請考試院劉副秘 劉秘書長還有權敘部的施部長人事行政總處的張副人事長好委員長 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4283.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4313.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那麼我想這個剛剛其實羅委員也提到了有關於警消人員的所得替代率提高的問題到現在為止都沒有看到這個部會有提有編列預算那麼當然這邊首先要問一下就是這次的這個警消人員的所得替代率的預算那個差額的預算到底應該是哪一個機關來編列是權敘部還是內政部依照法例的相關修法明文的規定是行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4313.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4330.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是行政院所以就是內政部應該要編列預算而不是權序部不是權序部好但是據我了解好像現在是不是兩個機關就這個部分來講是有爭議我想因為照法因為法條上面我記得寫的就是行政院要編列相關預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4332.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4346.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以很清楚的基本上就是內政部不照顧退休的景蕭該編他不編所以剛剛羅委員應該講的沒有錯就這個部分來講的話就是賴政府基本上就是不願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4348.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4366.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個提高退休景銷的所得替代率所以到目前為止都沒有編列預算那接下來呢我想再就教就是循序部跟考試院因為我們知道在去年12月27號其實總統已經公佈了退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4367.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4388.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
公教人员就是已经公布了这个退休金提款法案那这个提款法案里面呢当然我们法条写得非常清楚也就是这个退休所的替代率会回到就是112年的水准那么就这个部分来说其实最重要的目的就是希望能够让 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4390.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4416.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
在107年退休金年改的方案当中让退休公教人员的权益能够让他止血停损所以我们并不是恢复到107年而是考虑到现在的物价的上涨各方面的因素所以我们将所得替代率恢复到112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4417.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4444.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那麼這個法公布了之後事實上本席發現這個全區部那麼日前所做的這個所發布的新聞稿那麼竟然會認為說在針對113年跟114年已經退休的公教人員他們已經被扣掉的這個退休金那麼為什麼不能夠發還給他們對於他已經易扣的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4446.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4461.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
已經預扣退休金的差額這個部分難道不應該要依法依照我們的公務人員的退休之前撫恤法第37條的規定它基本上就已經回溯到112年了那麼請問考試院還有學區部你們是怎麼樣依法解釋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4470.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4493.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個事的關鍵點是在這個法律新修正的法律哪一天生效因為總統是12月26號公佈28號生效在修正的條文中並沒有追溯生效的條文所以在等於是說在12月27號以前我們全巨部這邊不只是全巨部就是我們整個退休金的發放就依照舊法 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4494.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4512.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那從生效後適用新法所以它的效果現在的修正文字效果會變成從新法生效起恢復到112年的好 謝謝秘書長剛剛說明我要講的就是你們讀條文你要從第一項開始一直往後讀到第六項 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4514.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4537.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
你第一項裡面基本上本來就講了本法公佈施行前退休生效者的每月退休所得就是於本法公佈施行後不得超過一替代率上限計算的金額所以我們是修單37條的第6項而且在這個條文裡面本來就已經有了這個回溯的意思否則的話不會講說這個付表從113年之後不再適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4538.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4566.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那麼同時也講所有的退休之前跟之後就在本法公布施行之前或之後的所有的退休人員他的所得替代率就是停留在112年的這個標準那我們在整個的當時修法的討論的過程當中是非常清楚的可是現在變成你全序部你自己做了曲解的這樣的一個法律的解釋我們這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4569.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4595.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
給非常多的法學專家看大家不會解釋成像你們這個樣子的說已經把現在的退休公教人員已經扣掉的113年跟114年的退休金差額竟然可以政府自己扣在那裡不發還你們知道這叫什麼嗎這叫公法上的不當得利你們扣這筆錢是沒有法律上的原因的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4596.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4614.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
如果所有替代率都恢復到112年這個對基金損害財富損害比較大的部分我們都願意依法執行的話其實沒有必要去在小地方做這樣的處理但是事實上你的說法就是你為什麼要在這個地方去做歪曲法律的解釋所以這是本心非常感到 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4616.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4633.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
真的看到考试院跟全序部你们的态度我非常的痛心是很多的公教人员都认为说考试院跟全序部难道不应该是所有的公教人员的大家长吗就你们完全没有爱护公教的这样的一个心情然后动不动 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4634.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4647.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
都是在做違反整個法律立法者當時修法本意的一個解釋同時來你們接下來說現在的這個之後的新的審定函你們會什麼時候發 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4650.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4661.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
大概需要六個月的時間為什麼需要這麼長的時間現在的系統不是就已經在了嗎系統需要修正系統修正需要這麼長的時間嗎現在新的發的審定函非常簡單就是未來所有的公交人員退休金的支領就是以112年的所得替代率為準你理論上你這個審定函113年以後的人沒有112年那個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4678.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4693.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
113年没有122年的数字因为113年以后退休的人他不会有一个112年的数字那还有这个系统不是就是以112年的为准所以如果说他现在也是未来不管任何时候退休的人都要使用的所以这个系统要重新去处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4694.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4699.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你們本來就在112年就有個系統就有個參數所以我覺得你們現在是把事情複雜化他基本上就是簡單的修一個參數就可以了他不需要像你們這樣還要重新再開發個系統再製作個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4710.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4720.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我本心認為說你們現在就是故意在拖延時間我們不用故意拖延時間我們要讓公務同仁有合理的執行時間然後這個宣告我們這次的退休金提侃法案是違憲嘛這個是兩個分開的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4729.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4744.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
在我看來這就是一件事情我們要讓現在的公務同仁有合理的執行時間而且我們也參考了107年年改的重新核算時間跟去年警察人士條例之後我們重新核算的時間這個半年推估是合理的是跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4745.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4773.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好那這半年裡面你們多扣的這些退休公教的退休金你們要連本帶利還給他們嗎跟委員報他們的錢就不是錢你們退服基金你們認為說你們繼續撲的錢才是錢嗎如果後面審定出來之後該補的當然要補但是委員您剛剛講113 114年這個部分如果當時立法原意上有希望追溯到113年因為要生效的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4774.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4791.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
在文件中需要表达出来在文字里面为什么因为这是非常清楚在我们所有的法案当时修正讨论当中以及从我们的第37条38条从第一项读到最后一项 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4792.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4815.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
就是所有退休在本法公布施行前退休和之後退休的人的所得替代率就是停在112年因此你之前給人家多扣的退休金本來就應該要發還好 那麼當然就是我本心知道你們現在跟行政院一樣就是提起釋憲之後反正能不動就不動所有的審定函然後都能夠拖拖半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4817.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4840.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們會透過其他的方式我們會要求如果說你們認為說你們這樣子的退休審定還半年才做出來是合理的話那我們來看看你們未來是不是這個考試院其他的預算的部分我們也讓你拖個半年你都不要有錢花這不是這說起來是很荒謬的一件事情明明就是個簡單的事可是你們今天要故意把它搞得很複雜然後政治化你們在心中還有軍公教嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4845.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4856.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
重新審定真的需要時間委員施部長您還是大學教授然後來轉任藉調當政務官你不是不知道這些公教人員的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4857.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4881.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是呢 本席認為說你在很多的這個議題特別是在推出性改革的議題處理上面你都沒有將心比心而且呢 處處是刻薄這些公教人員法律的解釋不是你權序部的解釋我們的立法已經清清楚楚了我想我們今天還可以硬拗拗成這個樣子讓本席真的是非常的感慨喔我不好是講說你們做的這樣習為非常的無恥 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4887.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4909.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們的生肖日就寫得清清楚楚的生肖日並沒有去追溯到前面去跟委員做這樣的報告總之就是說你們要拖半年嗎這就是你們的態度我們的立場我們沒有要拖半年委員如果妳了解行政事務可以去多問一下我們之前都是用這種標準的作業程序在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4909.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4926.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我也去問了相關的系統的開發基本上不需要這麼久的時間好那接下來我要問的就是說你現在依照警察條例另外審定的退收所的替代率你們說已經完成了37790人的案件的審定是所有符合資格的都已經審定完成了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4926.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4951.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
根据内政部给我们的解释符合的资格我们就进行审定那请问这次的有关于内政部移民署的相关人员有没有适用我想这是内政部的解释他并不适用那所以现在就是对于内政部移民署里面的相关人员他们基本上这个不在你们这次合法的推出审定函里面是吗是的根据内政部的解释好所以这个是属于内政部的问题那今天内政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4953.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4966.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
移民署沒有在 但是人事行政總署可以做解釋嗎當然如果移民署裡面有原來適用警察觀證他當然有 不是全部這有內政部來做解釋的有內政部的代表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4967.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4993.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
委員好那之前那個群聚部這邊有請我們的警政署針對移民署的部分哪些人可以適用這個警察人員的35條修正的內容那當時警政署有依照警察人員是條例回覆給群聚部就是最後在退休的時候是警察官身份的他就可以依照這個修正後35條來重新擬定他的這個所得替代率那以上報告那所以有多少人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4997.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5000.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我現在是講移民署的部分移民署房子叫移民署 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5001.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5025.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們可能要再跟移民署確認一下因為今天沒有請移民署好那之後麻煩請你們提供資料給本席因為這次在警察人員條例第35條裡面其實本來有提到有關於移民的這個相關的人員那所以就這個部分的話應該也要合理的應該是在適用警察人員的這個新的退休制度所得替代率提高的範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5026.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5052.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好 然后接下来的话我想请教的是有关于全序部那么我们知道在去年10月的时候考试院通过了重大的改革全面调高直辖县市政府所属机关职等上限那么总计涵盖了590个机关3500个职务可是呢事实上就是在这一波里面去年的那一波大调升里面似乎没有包含公立学校服务的广大的这个职员我们是以情节机关为主 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5056.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5060.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
行政機關為主所以有關於公立學校的相關公務員我想這個部分我們目前你們沒有打算要調生嗎一併檢討因為我們現在知道在大學裡面還有高中以下的學校裡面其實還有一些公務員如果有其他個案我想我願意多了解但是我們這次的調生是以特定的職務做調生並不是所有人都調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5083.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5086.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
本期希望說你們能夠針對就是在學校服務的公務人員的職等要進行一個檢討調整畢竟就是現在在整個公立學校裡面的公務人員的職等是偏低而且長期以來都沒有調整所以可不可以就請你們一個月內給本期一個報告到目前為止在公立學校裡面的相關公務員他們的職等分配已經多少年沒有調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5113.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5120.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
預計未來要怎麼樣進行改革可以嗎我可以提供給委員好那麼最後一個部分這可能是跟人種有關那可以請兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5123.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5143.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
这个部长跟秘书长可以先请回座那么我现在要讲的就是说本席在这个前两周去参访考试院的时候那时候其实书记官们大家有反应对于现在书记官的这个待遇还有他们的专业家籍偏低那么同时呢也针对就是有关于记录费的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5144.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5170.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那么始终没有办法就提高所以至于现在书记官还有相关的事务官他们离职率很高那么根据公务人员的加挤办法的规定看起来我本来以为是全旭部考试院可能会是加挤的主管机关但是目前是属于人事总组这里负责公务人员各个不同职系的加挤对吧对 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5171.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5192.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是 那所以你們就這個部分你們會預計要來調整嗎跟委員報告 這個不管是司法院法務部啦所以是有關於紀錄書記官的這個他的專業佳績的部分其實都有持續跟我們人種處在做相關的討論有持續做專業討論來 我們請王富敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5196.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5224.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
你知道你们这个司法人员的这个相关的记录书记官等等这些标准他们的专业家籍是从什么时候现在是4700元是对这是什么时候制定的这个法务部知道吗我这里的资料民国86年的时候制定的30年都没有动啊是可能要请副人事长 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5226.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5238.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
張富仁市長是本席去參訪了司法院那邊的法官 書記官他們的反應修這個專業家籍也不是司法院有權利可以修他會罷到行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5239.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5265.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
報到行政院幕僚是我們人事總署在作業所以可以被請王富密回去之後競訴像你們認為要調整的合理的專業佳節待遇然後報到人事總署跟委員報告過去都有非正式的一些討論司法院這部分是還沒有正式的函文司法院過去有沒有曾經有函文過希望能夠調升紀錄費 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5268.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5288.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
對 但是我們就是有一些意見的往返那如果這次事件再正式爆出來我們會行政院的相關的會審機關再來繼續做研議好 總之我想這個是個嚴肅的議題我希望司法院能夠多幫這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5291.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5307.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個基層的書記官還有就是各法官助理等等去多爭取權益那麼如果說該調的就要調那麼現在人事長副人事長這裡說因為你們沒有報對我不知道是不是這樣但是我希望就是人事總處也應該積極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5309.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5320.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
去調整各個職系的專業家級看起來不是只有司法院是民國86年訂定這個標準到現在很多的職系的這個專業家級都沒有調升我覺得這是個嚴肅的問題嚴重的問題希望你們能夠盡量做調整好嗎我們非常感謝委員利用這個機會幫我們爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5327.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5356.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那只要人事總署他願意支持我們的話行政上我們一定會是第一那個那個毫無延旦的立刻衝過去申請的謝謝好OK那就這樣子謝謝那就麻煩就是人事長還有好接下來我們請王一川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5365.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5395.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好謝謝主席我們請法務部徐次長跟司法院的王副秘書長謝謝委員長好次長今天跟你討論一下刑事訴訟法第101條關於這一個羈押室友這個有同仁提案要把這個勾串共犯或證人之餘把他拿掉那這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5396.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5423.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個可不可以再請次長有沒有一些比較大的這一個通案你們把人不羈押以後放走以後會發生什麼樣的事情謝謝委員那我們現在目前看到的包括台積電工程的洩密案還有凱凱保母虐待兒童案還有我們最近的像跨國炸雞就是台版的柬埔寨案還有軍官 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5424.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5448.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
塗抹駕駛軍機叛逃案還有毒梟議員販毒案這些很多的案子我們一定是有把主嫌犯積壓起來讓他沒有機會跟共犯或者是其他證人來做篡證這個一旦出去的話整個案子的偵查作為一定會受到影響那這個對檢察官來說這個放他出去你們會影響你們偵辦的作為嘛那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5453.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5458.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
有沒有哪一些是你們也把人家放了結果後來真的出事了不是你們去跟法官申請喔是你們自己的檢察官問完之後就讓他走了然後走了之後就真的那個傢伙就跑了或者那個傢伙就去勾串了那勾串完之後相關的這一個共犯或者證人就跑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5481.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5493.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們目前在執行上對這個都很慎重那也都會得到法官的支持所以如果像類似這種要篡證我們有提出具體的事證的說明的話法官也都會支持我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5494.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5520.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
但是如果委員需要一些比較具體的個案我們是會不會不是問個案我是說這個中間也許會有一些空窗有些是這樣有些是當時沒有發現還有其他的共犯所以一旦讓他交保出去了以後或者是沒有羈押他出去勾串的那個證人是我們沒有掌握到共犯沒有掌握到那勾串那個證人沒有掌握到他可能就跑了會跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5522.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5547.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
跑了以後你們就要站在這裡被罵了對對對 那我想到還有一個案子就是不過那裡都積壓起來因為大部分的都會配合我們對 就是如果你們把人放了然後就出事了然後你們就要站在那裡被罵了經常這樣嘛然後又說為什麼放人嘛 對不對好 那我現在請這個司法院的這個副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5550.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5569.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
你贊成這個修法嗎這個我們今天的報告裡頭有提就是說我們事實上是持保留意見的因為事實上世界上各國呢就是說有關於羈押要件一個是保全人嘛就是說被告不要跑掉還有一個是保全證據但那個證據我們都知道證據有物證 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5570.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5591.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那也有那個人證譬如說你就把那個通聯這些東西手機的這些資料把它銷毀掉了嘛那還有一個就是人跟人之間的那個串證嘛那串證有各種方式一個是你可能有性的就是去串證那一個是敵性的譬如說像比較那個嚴重的這一種性侵或是暴力犯罪的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5592.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5617.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那這個加害人他可能又會再一次用暴力的方式來就是恐嚇威脅這些那個被害人比較弱勢的那個被害人那所以呢就是說世界各國我們去看就是說幾乎就是說像我們講歐盟國家好了歐盟幾乎是全部就是通通都有這個保全就是說這個人真的這個部分的羈押原因啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5617.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5640.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
對 那我說那有沒有現在委員會提案說這個叫兒少有關的預防性羈押就是說他特別列出了幾種就是說我們現在的規定裡頭特別列出這種特別列出來會不會越列越多預防性羈押部分是不是對就是不是勾串那個證人那個對 預防性羈押會不會越列越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5642.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5669.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我想就是說這是隨著就是說這一種那個整個那個犯罪形態的那個演進像有一些像身衛身衛這一種那個的犯罪這都是後來新出來的嘛那如果說有這一種新那個犯罪的話在預防性羈押有必要的時候這個當然就要練那我想他最重要還是在一個必要性的一個控管上面OK 好那兩位請 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5670.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5675.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
接下來我們請這個考試院 紐約秘書長跟全序部的施部長委員長這兩天啊 事務看到說你們現在在訂算嘛算說會減多少這個公務人員這個退休的這個數字會改變嘛 有這個計算可是你也有說這個重新算的時候啊可能還要花幾個月的時間來訂算你的意思是說沒辦法讓人算就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5700.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5722.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
用人齁 一個個案很久的一個個案很久的對 我們以前的經驗就是而且人 因為我們 報告委員喔我們整個部裡面就是一個師的一個科在負責啦喔不是我們整個部在做這個事情嘛那你們現在用系統來做我們就是 寫程式對 寫程式 重新在廠商寫程式然後要經過測試 因為這不能不對嘛你這樣啦 這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5725.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5750.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
現在立法會如果鄉長再給你蓋一層你又蓋一層城市我們就是只要退休的東西就是因為它是非常精細的省得很準的連一天就不能差因為拿到人家審定的會覺得比較減一天那我請問一下這個城市弄完之後這個公務員可以自己算嗎沒有 還是我們要發出審定函沒有啦 他可以自己算 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5751.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5776.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
你那算的東西就公開給大家看我目前那個因為是內部的資料系統完以後因為資料都離開了算政府 我們目前沒有沒有啦 要個人 自己輸入啊可能我們有一個系統是另外一個如果你是按照現在的那個制度那個退休金 不會以前的啦我們是要提供他們自己方便試算但是那都不是正式的啦正式還是依賴我們我一件事這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5778.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5802.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
大家喔 公開透明啦你們啊 點點啊 怎麼算會公佈 現在都看得到他就輸入他自己的資料 他看不就別人的啦可是他看得到他自己的啦這有辦法嗎我這個 我回去了解 如果我們系統都做好了啦因為你系統也是你設定的嘛對啦 都做好了啦要不要說讓個人可以自己去查詢這個他的一個一個狀況好 我了解啦好 來 這個祕書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5805.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5833.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
您這個上禮拜考試院院會有同櫃說要去釋憲嘛 是啊 叫這個三層式這沒有衝突沒有衝突 我們就是 這個是兩件事情兩件事情 上面就它的核限性尋求這個憲法法庭的裁判那另外一方面但是因為法律既然已經生效上路了還是要依法去做這個執行那現在這個審定工作就是執行的第一個步驟你也要準備就對了 對準備後如果是釋憲說這個違憲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5836.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5864.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那這個就依照這個釋憲的結果來處理就停啊對 如果要 如果釋憲的有結果我們就依照不管他 看他是合憲還是違憲都會依照他的結果去做處理好 最後我是建議這個施部長我剛才說的那個事情就是說能夠當事人他自己輸入他自己的北京資料嘛都在那邊放唸他都用他自己唸嘛算算的 他總是每天看他的數字也很開心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5865.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5893.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
要不然你這樣審定出來 用早期的數據出來我跟你說 你退役金就是多少有時候要用到個位數去他也有重返簿 因為那些都是電腦算的要到時候我們政府就算是虧欠他這個事情 因為系統的程式也是你們設定的啦要輸入的參數跟變數也都是你們設定的啦這塊回去研究看看 有可行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5894.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5908.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
因為已退的人他本來以前就有一張審定函啦既然我們要重新變更這審定函啦對阿重新變更我們都弄好了我來 再了解一下印作的一個狀況有沒有可能性啦好不好因為他自己也會生啦網路也會幫他生啦網路有很多好事之徒嘛他會幫他生 我在講喔你剩下的錢 還會多加多加到時候你的電腦剩下來 減一萬塊每一個個案都來找你 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5923.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5927.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
說不對 我們這個省財這協會幫我們省財就這樣全市部幫我省財怎麼這樣這一個大家計算的基礎這都公開就是在程式上怎麼讓個人可以自己輸入個人的資訊之後裡面內部的看這種資訊怎麼做資安以後能夠把這個事情讓當事人可以自己先試算然後可能有一些誤差那誤差 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5952.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5959.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個大家都能夠接受 但是有時候要查太多有時候是你的系統設計出問題也不一定有時候是這個當事人 誤解因為網路上現在有時候說了說了斷了不要有時候誤解 都有可能現在也有退休公務人員因為說要退縮到很早很早以前這個網路有人也有人會這樣說雖然提案的這一個委員 去年提案的委員一再解釋 一再解釋說沒有要回到最早啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5982.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6003.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
但是公務員總是會算如果回到最早以兒傳兒母到母都不會太少好不好所以這個計算的方式也去研究看看在資安的保全的這樣的狀況之下讓個人來能夠有這樣的了解我來跟同仁 紀董哥來研究看看好 謝謝多方要考量好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請林慶琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6018.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6032.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們翁昭偉府會同仁 大家好那麼我先請 就今天的議題請司法院跟法務部好 請王富密還有徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6035.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6065.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
委員早蔡宜早安剛才本席針對今天一些的提案做了一些說明我們在這個部分再更精進的來做一下討論跟請教我們今天這個審查刑事訴訟法羈押相關制度的一個修訂整個社會其實意識到這個羈押作為一個很嚴厲最嚴厲的一個強制處分之一然後在人權的保障跟司法效率的面向我們今天來討論這樣一個制度是不是就制度面來講是不是周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6065.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6091.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
本席来引用司法院去年7月15号的调查报告整个报告聚焦在台研公司陈起玉案引发的争议当时台南的地方法院认为不积压的事由吴保请回后结果被告逃逸了结果引发社会对于法院是否延宕审理检方是不是没有善用科技等等这样的疑虑 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6093.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6105.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
整個調查顯示各地方法院跟檢察署對於什麼叫做重大什麼叫做矚目案的認定標準不一也交由各地方來認定有沒有需要再監督的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6107.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6129.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那這個差異可能會影響到強制處分的即時性跟明確性所以本席在這邊就請教你們三個問題第一個是那麼司法院跟法務部你們可不可以說明一下你們目前對於所謂重大矚目的一個標準有沒有相對比較起義的一個看法那這個部分是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6130.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6147.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
在社會疑慮下有一些更精進的空間那本席認為如果能夠有一些比較一致性的指引或制度性的規範那麼避免積壓審查的這個節奏因為認定的差異產生了程序的落差因此也引起了社會的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6148.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6165.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那麼第二個部分是那關於強制處分跟專庭的一個推動專庭制度的推動那麼羈押搜索限制出境出海的強制處分現在交由這個專屬的強制處分專庭來審理那算有助於形成穩定的一個審查的標準那避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6167.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6182.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
審審審的法官來產生這個預斷但實務上有一些法界的專家指出整個運作上還是有一些制度性的風險也就是說部分的地方法院會因為地域因素或個案的屬性然後讓檢察官或警察可能會傾向選擇某些特定的法院來申請強制羈押處分那麼以台鹽的這個案子為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6192.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6222.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那麼台南地方法院51位法官當中的4位在這個整個強制處分的專庭那是不是你們會不會認為這樣子一個比例比較偏低那難免有些案件會集中在某一些法官的身上那影響到整個審查的品質那最主要外界的觀感可能也有很多的疑慮所以你們是不是可以說明一下那個前述的這個問題那目前有什麼樣一個做法本席還有第三點那還是你們要先就前面兩點先做一個回應跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6222.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6238.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好 謝謝委員的指教有關於重大矚目的案件我們是有定標準的在司法院所定的法院辦理偵查中申請羈押重大矚目刑事被告案件注意要點中 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6239.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6263.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
的第一點他就已經有對什麼叫做重大刑事案件還有什麼是那個矚目案件有做一個規定有做一個決定那所以你們在這樣一個規定下就還產生了某一些讓整個社會很驚訝的這樣子一個狀態那這個部分你們是在你們的標準上跟實務的運作上是不是有一些需要再檢討的空間因為就是說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6264.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6279.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
案件犯罪那个类型呢还有事实的那个状态事实上千变万化所以说它不可能就每个具体的那个情况做规定它势必有一定就是规定的时候呢要见某部分的那个抽象性那这时候就要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6280.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6284.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
法官他怎麼去認定我想他會存在客觀上的情形有關於專庭我們現在除了比較小的法院之外像福建人就很少這些之外都有設專庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6300.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6313.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那專庭事實上它是有好處的就是幾年下來呢它運作的也非常成熟因為就是說第一個是那個專業化因為現在刑事案件的那種種類越來越多那個有關於那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6316.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6341.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
強制處分這個部分呢他委由那個專庭來做他可以達成就是大家對於這些那個案件就是的熟悉度還有他們的那個標準也會比較趨於比較那個統一啊就是那所以本席剛才講到的那這樣子您說當然專業上有一些累積那累積之後會不會也有一些比較特定獨斷的一個取向呢這是本席這邊所提出來的就是說人數上然後您說專業上那可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6344.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6351.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
會不會久了就會有這樣一個比較獨斷的取向所以會變成警察或者是警察官特定的一個選擇呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6353.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6377.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我想這個獨斷這個應該是一個評價上的那個問題啦就是一般其實我覺得他們對於整個那個強處人那個有專庭的設置大部分其實都還蠻那個肯定的對那本席這邊提出來其實這個面向應該也是值得思考你們是不是也可以就這個部分就是當我們累積了很多一致性的一個想法的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6377.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6396.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那或許是不是在某一些選擇上就會朝向某一個取向那會導致本席這邊所講的有特定的一個選擇你們是不是可以就這個部分也去做一個討論我想也是有人也是有相關的專家有這樣一個反應好不好謝謝委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6398.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6417.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
第三個部分在現行的制度下科技監控是一個羈押的替代處分類似像這樣羈押理由為前提需要有存在的羈押理由為前提但是法院認定不具羈押事由的時候檢方也沒有辦法申請科技監控法務部跟司法部是不是可以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6418.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6445.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那未來是不是在有可能不侵害人權的前提下然後透過制度的設計來降低這個院檢認定落差所可能產生的逃逸的這個風險法務部或者是法務部也要做一個回應或我先一個大的回應其實今年從去年以來那個有關於那個科控那個使用那個比例已經非常非常高了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6446.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6467.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那個整個陳述有達成非常高的比例這是我先一個補充說明我想透過我們的器材的精進還有我們的研習我們提高我們檢察官跟法官使用的意願所以這個科控我們是提高了那相關的一些作業或者是其他替代的我們還會跟司法院來研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6468.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6475.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以本席這邊所談的最主要就是一個可預期的一個設計不會讓每一個個案讓大家都覺得為什麼這個個案是這樣那個個案是那樣然後再加上一些政治性的連結那就讓社會經常感覺好像這個標準不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6486.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6506.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那可能個人好惡又會影響整個案件的一個走向所以這個部分就是說這個一致性的標準是不是能夠在不失數也不失守的情況下然後來做一些更精進的研議好不好那第二個部分本席要請教法務部跟衛福部副秘書長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6509.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6523.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這個部分本席要針對監所的第一線針對是不是我們整個國家有沒有達到一個基本的人權保障的要求來救教那麼依據這個羈押法跟監獄刑刑法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6524.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6551.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
為了要照顧安置受刑人吸入之子女監獄應該規劃適當的活動空間並提供必要的設施子女的戶籍所在地之地方社會福利主管機關也應該要提供必要的協助整個調查法務部跟衛福部你們針對監獄內生活模式跟環境並不是那麼的沒有做相關的系統性的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6552.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6578.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那對幼兒的這個身心發展的影響也沒有辦法很妥善的一個合作適切的藝術一些資源那麼導致了這個有點違反兒童權利公約的一個情況那整個基本上來講就是場所的管理還有介護的管理甚至對孩子哭泣的這個處遇方式不但沒有建立一些支持跟同理的育兒環境反而加重了親子的一個心理的壓力而很嚴重的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6579.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6606.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
尤其是非本國籍西陸入監的受刑人那語言的隔閡無法充分理解監所規定的時候這樣子的情形又更越發嚴重那本席這邊提一個案例就是桃園女子監獄那113年的時候呢這個親子園地受刑子女的人數有的時候多達24人然後連續6個月每個月都超過了這個核定的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6607.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6619.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
核定人數是21人大概最多的時候都24人如果在連同場設收容的一般修行人每名兒童可以使用的空間只有3.1平方公尺遠低於法務部櫃部所訂定的每一個兒童應該有8平方公尺的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6626.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6650.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以在監所超收的情況下就地方社會福利機關也沒有辦法掌握實際收容的一個狀況那麼各地的辦理水母入監視切性評估時你們是如何來評估對符合子女最佳的利益那是不是有把監所的環境跟超收的情形一併納入考量父母如果已經有這樣的狀況已經蠻辛苦的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6652.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6666.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那孩子連同著一病在這樣一個情況下在他人生有這麼樣一些印記其實我想都不是太健康所以本席這邊要請教兩個部會目前 監索對子女的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6667.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6677.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
沒有符合這個CRC等人權標準的情形那你們如何全面的評估跟改進桃園女監這個個案已經明顯的低於空間標準的一個場設你中長城的擴建計畫當中怎麼樣來優先考量相關的育兒設施在擴建完成前怎麼樣來避免讓幼兒在這種不適切的環境中暴露本席要請教兩個部會就個案還有全面 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6696.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6722.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
目前怎麼個處理柯委員報告因為今天那個矯正署並沒有派人來列席那市長這邊可不可以就一個對 我們對這個問題我們是也看到也面臨到不過我們監所這邊也已經非常非常的努力第一個 在空間的使用上我們會盡量排除一些困難加大它的活動的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6723.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6749.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個都已經在做了那再來就是跟衛福部這邊也密切的合作如果有一些醫療或者衛生方面的需求的話我們也會跟他有充分的聯繫我想我們監所針對這個問題真的非常的認真在執行那就因為他是超收也超過了原來監所的設計的原來的想法所以在現有的空間因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6749.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6766.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們一些的金手還沒驗收完成在空間有限的情況之下我們會盡量讓它有多的空間來使用你想的這個是個案的空間我想這一個全面性的問題應該整個法務部可以來做一個整體的評估跟處理我們針對這個問題會審慎的來研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6769.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6790.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
好那個案的部分就是在比較即時性的部分我想是不是可以趕快找出一些即時性的因應跟處理方式是會我們會研究好謝謝那最後是關心本席要關心那個整個少府的這個問題我想本席在這個整個會期已經提很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6791.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6819.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們再還是提醒一下少年事件處理法的第42條第5項跟第6項我們期待法院來召集諮詢會議串聯教育 社政警政跟社安的資源及早介入整合但是司法院目前好像還沒有一個執行的模式人力的配置跟教育訓練的準備周全你們在去年的報告裡面去年11月18號的報告裡面也做這樣的陳述但是整個各地法院的負荷非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6820.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6827.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
很重食物上其實極少召開這樣的會議在會議裡面還有食物型的一些做法我想真的在現場確實是很困難現在很重要的就是每個單位的方案的內容還有分工的界限還有開案的標準有點不太熟悉這個當然有本席一直在講的基本的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6845.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6860.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
但是我們在實務操作其實有效的跟法院端形成跨網域的合作其實還是真正有一些困難我想最近大家要抗議的就是轟動的戈井案這裡面也是有一些呈現本席一直談一直談所以在最終本席想請教的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6866.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6893.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那麼重大案件來揭示問題之後呢那目前我們推動跟法院端跟這個地方政府特別是教育局處設置單位之間明確的聯繫窗口跟標準化協作的流程你們的具體作為怎麼樣去避免資訊落差成為少年案件的一個破口那這個部分是不是可以給本席做一個回應那本席在整個會期裡面也一直談到那中央的這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6893.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6900.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
雖然副秘書長您這邊也有提到說應該行政院這邊來建立但是是不是你們跟行政院這邊的一個推動像剛才有其他的委員講到我們長期書記官30年費用通通都沒有調高我想您也希望人事單位的一個支持有的時候就你必須要先提出來或者是可能人事單位會發現不過通常都是第一線的我們才會發現這樣一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6924.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6945.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
發現的時候有的時候說這麼久其實常常要做滾動式的檢討我們有可能在很大的業務量裡面就忽略掉某一項所以本席這邊講的是這樣一個少年事件少婦會的一個中央的平台我想在今年我們其實也討論了很多不知道你們現在目前針對這個部分跟行政院的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6946.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6958.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
不知道你們有沒有提出或者是有沒有跟行政院的相關單位來研擬這樣一個可能性因為它影響的就是我們食物在地方上的操作我們想的當然是以輔導先行可是這個輔導在一個卵性的執行程序當中就會變成有點鬆散 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6967.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6987.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那是不是可以透過中央這樣一個平台然後給各地方一些比較強力的支持那最重要就是說那你們跟行政院這邊是不是有比較積極的已經有做一些積極的溝通了嗎還是只等著本席這邊再幫你們跟行政院要做一些嫁接我想這個部分再請教一下副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6989.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7010.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
謝謝委員 這個部分先前也有向委員報告過因為這個部分還沒有涉及少年犯罪所以說他這時候還沒有司法權介入的情形他完全是一個行政層次所以說這個部分有關於少婦會他怎麼運作跟他的權責 我們司法院真的無從介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7011.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7038.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那當然也是後來這個整個法律調整了之後那你們就沒有這樣一個權限但是不是就在實務的運作上我們就解決問題的層面上你們有機會來跟行政院來做一個溝通嗎本席當然也是在努力跟行政院這邊來做這樣一個推動但是你也知道這實際上的一個運作因為這個部分司法院完全沒有職責所以我們也無從介入說少府會他應該怎麼樣那個運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7042.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7062.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那本席是認為就是說雖然是職權的這個問題但是我們針對事情的解決也是可以想辦法來積極處理這是一個建議那當然可能在政府部門大家針對這整個各自的職司有太多的限制那要不然但是你們是不是也可以請這個政委這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7064.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7082.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
或是一些私下的溝通我想你們過去都曾經做過這樣的業務那透過私下的溝通能夠讓這些事情在轉換的過渡期間呢那目前在實地運作上的不足可以透過一些溝通來把它連結起來這是本席的一些本席的用意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7084.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7103.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
提出這樣的建議希望如果有機會我們就針對目前少府的問題能夠用各種管道來處理好不好最後就提醒一下剛才幾位委員都談到公教的有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7105.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7122.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
軟體的這個寫作這個問題那我這邊提一個建議我還是要釐清就是說不好意思就考試院這邊假設在你們先說六個月的這樣一個期程那我們知道其實在資訊資訊的這個專業度上有的時候就是如同翁委員今天在質詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7123.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7135.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
在專業上或許有些時候就是一個參數的問題但是王委員提的是他提的是另外一個可能性就是說未來是不是也可以給個人有機會去做一個檢視那本席是認為以現在台灣這樣一個AI的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7138.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7143.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
國度我們在資訊的這個軟體程式上的寫作應該不至於要那麼長的時間所以是不是可以請這個考試院相對比較積極一點雖然規定的時間是這樣但是我們為了所有相關人的一個權益我們或許可以更積極的然後在速度上來推動的比較快一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7158.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7179.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那我覺得汪委員的建議也很不錯啦未來如果能夠讓個人也可以計算的話那我想這又是另外一個這個城市性的問題所以本席這邊提一個建議就針對目前會影響到相關的權益人的這個部分是不是速度可以加快一點那至於那個汪委員那個很好的一個建議那我覺得也可以減少未來一些問題那我相信城市應該是這個關係到大家應該不至於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7182.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7197.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
會出錯啦 但是有更多人來檢視應該是相對更完善一點 好不好那本席在這邊針對考試院這個部分做一個建議 好嗎謝謝委員意見啦 我們絕對不會刻意去拖延他那我們就盡快啦 盡力喔 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那麼接下來我們請審法會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7218.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7238.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
主席各位同仁我們今天的委員會議大概主要是三個部分第一個是考試院有關警消退工公交退休金的改革的部分第二個是第二個部分是我們上次其實已經進行過審查的有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7239.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7266.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個刑事訴訟法101條之一這個預防性羈押的修正條文這部分其實大家也都有高度的共識了應該比較沒有問題所以我今天大概比較希望集中在討論的就是有關第三個部分這後面三個有關刑事訴訟法的修正案包括404條 93條 101條 108條這幾個修正案在我看來都其實這幾個修正案再提出來就其實引起司法界極大極大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7268.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7292.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
討論跟爭議跟質疑但是我想說今天我們在一併的一個呼嚨的把這三個主題把它鬥在一起這個部分我希望說能夠提出來討論這個是受到司法界非常關注的一個有關尤其是有關於相關的這些偵查中審查審判中的這個羈押制度的修正這部分我希望來做討論所以這部分我是不是先請我們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7299.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7317.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
委員長市長早剛剛我們講的這所謂第三部分這個刑事訴訟法相關的部分其實它裡面又有好多個部分的這個羈押制度的相關的修改包括這個第404條是有關這個強制處分的裁定不得抗告的部分這個是一個那另外這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7318.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7344.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個刑事訴訟第93條有關於偵查這個偵查中的這個羈押審查程序的相關規定這個又是一個部分再來是兩個爭議最大的部分第一個是101條有關於刪除這個羈押的事由刪除這個勾算證人跟這個勾算共犯的這個部分作為羈押事由這個部分爭議非常大這個部分等一下來討論第二個另外再來一個就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7346.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7373.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
108條有關於縮短羈押期限這個部分也引起很大的爭議那我就因為怕時間不夠從爭議大的部分我們先來討論首先是這個有關於第101條的行事做法第101條這個羈押適由的這個修正案他這個在第一款的第一款的跟這個第一項的跟第一款第二款第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7373.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7396.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
四個部分都有做修正包括這個第一項的這個有關於這個增加這個且無其他替代手段作為積壓式油這個是第一個部分在第一款的部分把這個事實加上具體兩個字具體事實這個部分其實也有值得討論但是真正引起最大最大爭議是有關第二款第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7397.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7419.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
有關於這個勾串對 有關於勾串共犯證人之餘的這個部分在修正案中把勾串簡單講就是說有勾串共犯跟勾串證人之餘不能當作羈押的理由這個部分引起最大的爭議這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7426.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7450.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個修正案一提出來 立刻就引起了我們包括司法界各界的嘩然簡單講就是嘩然了大家聽到覺得怎麼會有一個負責任的政黨會提出這樣子的一個修法呢怎麼會對於所謂勾串犯人跟勾串證人變成不能夠羈押 不能當作羈押的室友呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7451.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7475.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個部分包括這些檢察官的這個團體 像這個建清檢改包括許多的這個檢察官 甚至這個法官也都提出了相關的質疑那我們來講說這個有關於這個勾串把這個勾串從這個羈押的室友把它拿掉的最大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7476.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7488.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
的影響這部分我有看到你們的書面報告其實所謂勾串共犯跟證人他作為羈押的室友並不是中華民國法治的發明也不是我國所獨有 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7489.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7517.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
事實上不管在美國在德國在相關的進步的這些法治國家裡面勾串共犯騷擾證人相關勾串證人這個都是絕對是重大的羈押的理由對這是保全證據必要手段所以為什麼我國現在有什麼樣的條件有什麼樣的事由有什麼樣的形狀變更讓我們有必須要做這樣子的修法呢是不是請法務部說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7519.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7547.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
沒有 很簡單 你回答兩個字 沒有沒有任何的理由說我們要把這個勾串共犯跟證人這個拿掉你如果把這個拿掉之後 簡單講你剩下保全這個不能夠勾串共犯跟證人你只剩下什麼 剩下拒保 責負 限制居住相關這幾個替代處分這種拒保 我簽名 我保證不會去勾串證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7548.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7569.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
或者是我責負 或者是我限制住居就可以防止這個證人的勾串嗎可以防止對於這個共犯的勾串對於證人的騷擾跟勾串嗎完全沒有辦法替代吧對 這個對證據的保全跟將來的訴追絕對會造成非常非常大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7570.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7586.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
尤其這不是不只是人權的問題啦這包括有沒有辦法防止篡共這種尤其是現代的這種典型的共犯型的犯罪集團式的犯罪我們在於對於證人對於這個共犯之間的勾篡以及他對證人之間的騷擾這個絕對是最 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7588.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7603.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
最嚴重的羈押是有啦那現在現今的尤其是大家國人不管哪個政黨大家所在講的現在的這個是詐騙案件每次主題一排詐騙案件大家屁屁叫我們詐騙案件我們這個詐騙案層出不窮大家辦案辦不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7607.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7635.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
為什麼我們最需要防止共犯串證的詐騙犯罪案件量最多其他不只連略同的案件兒少的案件相關的組織犯罪黑道這些都是勾串共犯騷擾證人這都是最嚴重的干擾辦案還有貪賭跟毒品案件都是一樣還有什麼貪賭跟毒品這些都是都是有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7637.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7657.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以我今天在看立法也就不曉得你們到底為什麼要來修改這個這個這個規範為了一個在市長室踩飛輪收300萬的貪污犯這不是我講的這個是起訴書154頁講的為了一個收謝國良200萬的貪污犯為了一個收建商1500萬政治現金圖利121億的貪污犯為了一個人為事 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7663.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7683.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
然後你要來讓這些詐騙 虐童 組織犯罪 貪賭等等其他相關案件的辦案難度增加來讓他們有利於這些共犯跟證人之間的串供 勾結我不懂這是什麼道理我不懂這個提案的政黨是什麼道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7687.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7712.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這個部分我希望不只是這樣我們看過去大家所關心在這邊被靠譜大家講的這些凱凱案過去為什麼羈押也是因為就是用這個理由羈押對不對如果我們這一條刪除之後凱凱案它就不能羈押了對不對包括台版的N號房也都是因為這個理由對不對所以我在這邊希望在野黨能夠懸來樂嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7714.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7743.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
修掉這一條你只是為了柯文哲一個人來為事你會造成社會多大的危害莫此為慎接下來有關108條這個羈押理由的縮短這個部分也引起這個法界我們法界的很大的這個爭議不管是這個各界包括我們這個不管是檢方不管是法官不管是律師界不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7745.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7772.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個留德的 留日的 留美的 各界的學者大家都看到這樣的修法都齊齊以為不可我們比較各國的羈押制度台灣的羈押制度並沒有比世界各國其他各國期間長嘛有嗎 沒有嘛齁這個德國是偵查階段的羈押是六個月可以原則上是六個月欸六個月而且他延長機制每一次延長可以遇六個月欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7775.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7786.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個美國的聯邦法院根本連期限都沒有美國聯邦法院連羈押的期限都沒有那我們現在是有什麼事由說覺得羈押期限太長呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7787.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7812.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我們現在所有剛剛所講的這些不管是詐欺案件不管是組織犯罪案件我們現在包括最 辦案最困難的大家一直在講說我們為什麼打詐為什麼打詐這個詐欺案件越來越嚴重為什麼就是因為查我們在偵查詐欺犯不好辦不好辦 哪裡不好辦就是因為他必須要調閱金流必須比對通年紀錄他必須要解析這些數位證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7813.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7838.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這些東西你現在要我們積壓線現有的積壓期限其實都已經跑的都來不及了對不對常常在積壓期限已經到了但是我們相關的金流分析還沒有辦法完成對不對我們這些數位數位的數據的解析證據的解析都沒有辦法在這麼短的時間內完成所以其實這樣子的這樣子目前的這樣子的積壓期限的時間設計它是兼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7841.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7863.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
人權的保障同時兼顧發現真實所需要的時間對不對那我現在就不懂了我們現在也就又是為了為一個人特定的人為事你也覺得柯文哲這個羈押太久了又是為了這樣子一個貪污犯為事你又要這樣子把這個羈押期限再縮短 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7867.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7882.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員我可以報告一個案例那我們發生在高雄的這個張某的連續殺人案子各位都印象深刻的話長達將近四個月的時間我們動員了很多那個警察跟志工都是在運河裡面撈屍塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7883.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7908.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
沒有屍塊我們沒法證明死者是不是真的死了所以這個都變成說要時間而且每個撈到的屍塊都要鑑定鑑定是不是跟被害人相符所以那個中間的案子是要很多很長的時間那如果今天不是羈押這個張姓的主嫌的話那我們民眾能不能接受這一個人在一加一以後他就在高雄趴趴走對 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7911.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7929.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個我想就是我們這屆修法的提案的委員他必須要對社會說明的必須對司法界各界嘩然一律提出的質疑做清楚的說明我希望今天在審查過程中大家可以把這些話說清楚我們該堅持的要堅持 是好不好 以上接下來我們請吳世陽委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7947.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7976.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們請劉秘書長還有施部長好 謝謝主席辛苦了我們非常遺憾在今年司法法治委員會居然是讓年改走回頭路那我想先請問兩位你們知道工都盟針對2025年的國會亂象有做出了一個年度代表字你們知道是什麼嗎不好意思 我沒有注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7977.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8004.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我不知道好 我這個謎底揭曉你們一定很有感就是毀啊毀憲亂政的毀啊我們司法法制是第一線是非常的感同身受啊不管是今天刑事訴訟法這種個案是為個人量身定做的修法或者是一再的禁覆二讀不義而決的這種暴衝式粗糙的立法或修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8006.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8024.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
誘惑甚至是我們司法法制委員會的民主討論是最欠缺的我上週到未還委員會去審查人工生殖法我赫然發現原來在司法法制委員會已經消失已久的民主討論我很高興在其他委員會依舊可以踐行 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8025.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8044.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們在人工生殖法的討論光討論名稱跟條文第一條都保留就花了將近兩個小時主席不會限制每個委員只能三分鐘發言主席也不會限制只能一次發言主席更不會把立委的多元意見的傳達來消音 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8046.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8069.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以說一個制度的毀壞真的是讓我們都要去深思喔這人民的票選的這個毀對應於今天的修法大家都應當慎重的去反除甚至我們不能接受什麼叫做先求有再求好這種立法的思維下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8070.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8094.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
年改表決走回頭路年金永續成空 世代爭議也不見了今天的爭點有兩個第一個翁小玲委員要求我們要返還兩年的退休益扣的退休金事實上關鍵就在於剛剛秘書網已經清楚的說明了就是條文在修正的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8095.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8122.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
並沒有去訂施行日期所以說我們依據過去中央法規標準法13條的規定施行日期就是發布之日期的三日發生效力這是立法者自己要知道的ABC自己在修法的時候沒有把施行日期的配套思考清楚現在反要求我們要去違法要去把兩年的義扣退休金一併要返還 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8123.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8148.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
自己修法修不好還要怪全序部真的是毀啦 整座海料料啊 整座都毀啦所以這個部分不該做的不能夠逼考試院來違法行政嘛這是第一個爭點你們早上我的意見理解有沒有錯誤沒有好第二個呢就是在我們試算的那個期限剛剛部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8151.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8178.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
至少大概六個月 因為幾個原因 要系統要再重做那還有要跟當事人確認嘛 對不對中華哥卡一個過年 今年過年的年假還不在那裡等我想問一下 我們過去在2017年修正年改法案那是進步性的修法的時候 我們的準備期是有入法吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8179.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8203.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
對 我們給了一年的實施期間過渡期間所以當時當時的立法者就沒有發生這種普隆功的幾週海料料的修法嘛清楚的入法也給予我們相關的行政部門一個合理作業的時間試算 然後通知當事人所以給了一年而且當時是入法嘛對不對那為什麼過去的立法院做得到現在的立法院這麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8204.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8223.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這麼的粗糙這個水準水平真的是走回頭路啊跟年改一樣都走回頭路啊那去年的這個警消條例的修法有入法嗎準備期也沒有就沒有嗎這非常符合這一屆國會的特色就是完全沒有把配套想清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8224.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8239.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
沒有入法 沒有像2017年的年改非常嚴謹的給予你們入法的一年的合一的準備期那警消條例也沒有入法但是你們就警消條例試算的這些的經驗值那時候花了多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8240.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8251.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們大概前前後後也差不多半年啦就是半年是起跳的嘛就是到半年左右我們把最後的審定函發出去那前面就有很多開始做系統更換測試還有確認這樣一個陸陸續續的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8255.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8273.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
雖然警消人員條例我們現在釋憲中所以雖然暫時沒有執行要等釋憲的結果但是我們也依法律通過你們也去啟動了這個試算而那個半年的時間現在運用在年改的這個案子就是合宜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8274.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8292.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們內部事實上是真的做評估我必須尊重同仁作業的那個所以在警消的部分大概當初預估到有4萬個案件那這個呢是我們要重新發出18萬的一個肯定雖然案件有簡單有比較複雜但是我們都希望一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8294.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8314.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以六個月真的只是一個合宜時間的最低標準我還很擔心你剛講警消影響是4萬多人這一次公教反年改是18萬所以說委員不要再為難考試院了要不然當初修法的時候自己把配套準備期的時間定清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8315.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8335.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以說真的是鬼走海寥寥下一頁你們已經提出釋憲文了民進黨團也將在本週或下週就會立案我們期待憲法法庭除了受理釋憲也希望能夠作出暫時處分就我們期待唯有作出暫時處分才能夠讓民進黨團我們所主張的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8338.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8361.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
这个你应该走回头路停下来但如果即便送市县暂时处分也还没有出来包括我们尊重大法官是否受理所有的作业程序都是朝要进行要终止的方向所以没有不执行这个也要讲清楚来秘书长因为现在法律已经公布生效所以在相关的处置上都会合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8361.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8385.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
是所以说这个社会也会有些误解说年改过了你们又不执行事实上当宪法法庭已经恢复运作我们申请释宪然后希望宪法法庭能够做出合宜的暂时处分的处分否则我们都还是照法律通过的准备在进行相关的作业审定工作本身就是执行的第一步对 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8386.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8409.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那這個是需要時間 第一個是不能出錯第二個是不能讓同仁過勞 也不能操之過急去倉促上路所以我希望你們能夠把作業做得嚴謹絕對不能先求有再求好這個也是 李歡迎的壞習慣不要傳染到其他的憲政機關來 部長要補充沒有錯 全局部對於退休案件的審定一向高度嚴謹所以我們一定不能出錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8410.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8434.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以但是這需要作業時間因為這關乎每一位公教人員的權益我們一定會努力做但是我們不想讓他做一個出錯又一堆那個重新又回來重新要更改所以立法委員自己急救張暴沖式的這種壞習慣真的不要強加在其他憲政機關身上好 兩位請回那我請司法院的複密也請法務部的次長不好意思 暫用多一點點時間許次 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8441.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8459.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
今天對於刑事訴訟法的惡修鼓勵篡政篡到保讓共犯權解套我當然覺得這個是萬萬不可我們絕對反對 下一頁但我要先問我要感謝也肯定這個法務部在中國對於我國檢察官被列他們的台獨打手 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8460.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8489.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
跟吳思瑤同級我也是台獨打手但沒有想到我們的司法人員也被這樣子的對待我肯定你們第一時間部長就出來喊話這是傷害台灣的司法獨立中國沒有權利長臂管轄跨境鎮壓更重要的是不要傷害台灣的司法主權這是台灣的司法主權下一頁但是呢我就覺得你們有一個部分就沒有做得特別到位了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8490.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8514.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這麼多的人公然挑戰司法的公信力包括傅坤祺總召公然對社會說 怕賤人沒有背兩三條案怕賣大賣這種做法就是社會非常負面的示範包括館長他自己恐嚇國家元首被起訴他居然還來做這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8516.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8536.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
要求總統出庭不出庭就是冤案又開始來民粹跟司法操弄了包括蔡正元三中案定案了以後國民黨黨主席還頒給他實踐一等獎章國民黨是上上下下在鼓勵犯罪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8537.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8563.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
還有前兩天看到蔡正元先生跟柯文哲前主席公然非常挑釁的做了一個合拍秀出他們的電子交流所以網路上大家盛傳說到底台灣社會怎麼了這些對於社會的輿論都有影響力的政治人物公然的都來做這些鼓勵犯罪或是摧毀司法公信力的這些操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8565.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8573.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
對應於剛剛我們對於國台辦對台灣的司法人員的這種威嚇跨境鎮壓我們第一時間的來反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8574.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8597.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我真的覺得台灣的法治教育不能夠海嘹嘹啊我們都參加扶輪社啊扶輪社每年多努力的我們都有這個法治教育委員會去各個學校各個社區推廣正確的法治教育但是當這些人都不斷的在用他的影響力來愚弄司法愚弄民粹的時候你們要do something啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8599.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8625.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
複密跟次長這個部分你們好像就都當然尊重了這他們的言論自由可是站在法律教育法治教育的角色我認為我們不能一再姑息來次長回答我想他們相關人政治人物他的言行社會自由公斷那我想捍衛司法公信力應該是全民都應該來信守來支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8626.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8650.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
強化法治教育好嗎當我們知道國內的政治人物搭配著中共的認知作戰都在摧毀台灣的司法主權的時候我們還是要去做必要的事還是要做必要的事不然就害怕那些小孩子大小要大胃就要犯法整個社會最大在野黨在鼓勵犯罪我們不能縱容好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8651.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8673.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
今天這個提案人黃國昌委員到美國去了所以說他的提案是自己不敢面對嗎我也不知道 落跑的真是時間提案人就是黃國昌啊他自己不敢面對啊下一頁我來講重點了就是我們法務部反對的幾個理由啊刑事訴訟法不能被惡修啊因為我們必須要保全證據我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8676.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8695.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
不能夠影響打擊犯罪向上溯源的這些作為而且羈押制度不能因為個案受到摧毀對不對淪為犯罪者的保護傘更重要的是現行羈押處分是法官保留法官依比率原則來審定就是確保他的最小傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8696.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8723.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
大法官釋字392號就很清楚的說負面應當很清楚就是檢察官只有申請權但是就是法官保留只有法官擁有這個權利所以說我們這樣子的要求都是大法官釋字大法官又說話了但立法院又要違憲了我具體還調出我下一頁剛剛大家都講了詐騙集團 毒品都是這些串證者的大宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8724.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8738.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
尤其呢這個電信詐欺的九成的案件也都是透過串證可能讓他逃之夭夭喔所以說我調出司法院的統計報告說過去20年來從2007到2022其實我們當時的准雨積壓率在2007到2014年大概是11700多件但是到 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8750.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8765.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
14年的時候就是腰斬減少變一半6000件換言之就是法官保留越為謹慎嘛對不對但是呢後來在20232024又幾乎又回到15年前的羈押數原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8767.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8795.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
就是因為打詐嘛就是因為打詐的需求嘛所以說這是一個新興犯罪社會有共識的事情如果在沒有這些惡意的去篡證湮滅證據的這些打詐詐欺毒品或是性侵的案件如果沒有這些事情的話我們可以回到一個合宜的法官保留他會在侵害最小最小保護的那個原則裡頭去拿捏嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8796.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8806.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以說這個事情黃國昌委員從頭到尾他的提案都是毫無正當性只是為了個案的修法所以我再一次的表達喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8807.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8830.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們不要為詐騙集團來脫罪不要讓組織犯罪者獲得保護傘不要為某些政黨的偽造連署讓它成為台灣民主的常態我們也不鼓勵一些竊取國家核心技術譬如說台積電泄密案的這些人可以因為刪除了串證的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8833.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8850.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
而讓這種竊取國家核心技術的人他可以逃之夭夭當然對於虐童對於兒少性犯罪還有對於共諜的滲透共諜滲透也是這一類非常需要去防範的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8852.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8873.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以如果在野黨執意要把這個二修又要爆充式的修法又要先求有再求好亂修一通最後事情大條了再來趕快修回來司法法制太擅長了啦法院組織法法庭直播不是這樣嗎自己進負二讀修壞了然後再來遷怒於司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8875.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8899.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我們不容刑事訴訟法再這樣被惡修何況今天提案人黃國昌自己都畏罪潛逃所以我是建議主席提案人不在我們今天很難討論他怎麼去闡述他的提案的意旨呢當提案人自己都不願意面對了都自己都不敢面對了那我們何必 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8901.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8908.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這樣認真的替他審查他的議案呢所以說如果刑事訴訟法被惡修而提案人又不在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8910.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8931.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那我覺得這樣子的討論是非常沒有踐行民主的原則我們也要尊重黃國昌提案人的權益不是嗎他應當到場來為自己的提案來捍衛不是嗎好我們繼續該捍衛的就堅持我們都不要淪為犯罪者的保護傘被利用了好謝謝主席謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8932.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8941.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好 接下來我們請吳宗憲委員發言那等會在王宏威委員詢答完畢之後我們就休息個五分鐘 謝謝主席我這邊還有一個程序的發言就是我想說在我質詢之前我想提一個就是說因為今天的專報找了那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8962.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8977.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
考試院全序部但是其實今天其實應該要在要找來的是行政院跟內政部因為始作俑者是行政院還有內政部因為剛剛其實吳孝文講沒錯就公督盟說一個毀這個字他說是年度制 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8977.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8992.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那我覺得有道理啊因為全世界民主國家你也不會看到哪一個國家三讀通過後的法律行政院不執行包括中華民國已經115年了過往也從來沒有一個行政院院長敢對於三讀通過後的法律不執行那包括到我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8994.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9012.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
大家如果不懂的話其實縣市議會大家想一下縣市議會如果議員三讀通過的地方知識條例縣政府不執行看會不會鬧得天下大亂所以我蠻認同剛剛吳志曉委員說毀那個字因為怎麼會有三讀通過的法律不執行這個其實我覺得不可思議更何況你說我認為它違憲所以不執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9013.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9033.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那如果到這樣講那地方縣政府縣長也可以說我認為你們這自治條例違憲我不執行那就天下大亂完全違反法的明確性還有法的穩定性原則那麻煩下一次如果說在相關的議題在討論的時候是不是我們可以請行政院跟內政部他們要能夠派人來參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9034.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9049.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我想謝謝吳委員的建議這次邀請上面的確是 也忘記邀請內政部的移民署所以我們接下來還會再安排相關的報告畢竟我們必須要持續的去盯 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9050.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9067.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
全序部跟考試院為什麼要拖這麼久的時間然後沒有辦法發出審定函我想這是攸關所有退休公教人員的權益那麼這個部分的話我們等到再找時間我們再來做適當的安排專報好 謝謝那我要邀請考試院還有全序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9073.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9088.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
吳委員長請問一下考試院這邊因為你們說在現行法庭作出判決權還有權序部要本於合法合憲原則執行各項作業那請問一下什麼叫做合法合憲 請問兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9090.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9102.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
就是相關這個法律生效之後這個該執行的部分就會去執行那是不是意思就是說其實新法三讀通過總統公佈生效之後只要憲法法庭還沒有判違憲之前本來就應該要來審定跟來發給對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9105.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9131.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
審定的部分是我們的工作我們會來處理好那對啊我覺得你就那你們其實卓榮泰應該來聽聽看你們在講什麼因為他創了一個全世界沒有沒有民主正常民主國家沒有人幹過的叫做三讀通過後的法律我認為違憲所以我不執行好那我再請教一下就是新法有效那權力存在的情況下你們目前的問題是行政作業需要時間這個核定還需要時間是嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9134.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9136.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
為什麼這個時間要這麼久 要半年因為我看你們的報告說你們推估需要半年 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9149.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9164.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個我跟委員報告這個我們是根據過去的一個經驗譬如說警察條例我們也花了快半年的一個時間因為他需要重新再寫程式然後這裡面還有廠商的一個需求的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9165.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9179.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
然後完了以後就需要一個一個還需要去測試測試那個程式一定不會有問題那我們是用那個來經驗那測試的人更多嘛那這樣喔我先尊重你們這個六個月的這個說法當然我個人會覺得說一到現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9180.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9195.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
的那個電腦的效能為什麼需要6個月這是我質疑我第一個我先質疑這個點但第二個我說我尊重部長您的說法但是可不可以麻煩主席麻煩主席才是這一段時間他說要6個月對不對那主席其實對這6個月也是有意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9195.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9217.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那我們是不是要求他第一個我們先尊重他們這六個月的要求雖然你我都不認同這六個月但是我們可不可以是不是說請主席裁示每一個月請全區部或考試院要向我們市的法治委員會提交書面報告進度就說你已經完成多少件的審定了我想這個應該是為了全國公務員一個公平正義這個可不可以請他們做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9218.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9238.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
是 本席也贊同那個吳委員的建議可能要請考試月根結局每個月要報告到底完成了多少件已經對哪些機關的這個退休公教人員你們已經完成審定我想跟吳委員報告我們每個月都可以提交進度報告但是這個進度報告不是說那個月完成多少是為了完成到六個月以內要完成審定的集中的步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9240.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9260.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我看了第一次的报告我就知道哪里是要在你们补清晰的数据好不好是步骤啦以及你们都完成了多少件嘛你们如果只是步骤我想我们的是要整个因为他是要系统完全开发一次作业那我们要一次作业会在六个月里面最后发出审定函 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9261.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9280.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那我想委員應該懂我的意思那前面就有開始開發我們可能一開始要委託開發就有一個流程所以我說我尊重你們但是你要給我進度所以我說我會給進度你們是全國公務員的娘家今天你要為了他們的權益你應該是跳出來在前面幫他們擋子彈的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9281.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9299.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
需要我們每個一個月提交一個工作這樣好不好我跟主席報告還有跟部長報告你們先提出來我第一個月看你們報告的方式是什麼如果我有要更精確的數字以及要哪個點我們再直接行文跟你談好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9300.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9322.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我要就是每個月要給我們一個進度否則全國的公務員都不知道你們在做什麼而且我們都覺得為什麼需要六個月那還有本週裡面你們可不可以先把這個先把那個完成的作業計畫跟時程先報到我們委員會來至少我們公開讓全國這18萬名退休的公務員能夠知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9322.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9338.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
不是說半年後再講這件事而是說我們要知道一下你們的將來的做法進度然後讓我們可以接著監督好不好這個禮拜先告訴我們你的大概結構怎麼做就是你們整個的系統的你們說要什麼要轉換要變更等等相關的執行的步驟麻煩一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9349.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9366.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
其實我們本來是一個主權在民的國家主權在民也是憲政的ABC但是我覺得現在政府就是把一個族群一個族群接著丟包所以我看到已經丟包到這樣我不得不再站出來替大家講話我先講第一個政府先棄養原住民之前禁法補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9367.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9387.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
法都過了 政府就不編他說我沒有錢我不編第二個 農民啊農民的公糧收購也是啊他說我沒有錢他政府就 你已經過了他就是不做所以先棄養原住民 再棄養農民現在棄養這些軍警消工教再來呢 下一個會是哪一個族群我不知道會不會是醫護人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9389.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9397.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
會不會是社工這些現在都是逃難潮你一個國家的運作絕對不是在比說為什麼你護士可以領得比我 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9398.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9418.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
勞工多 基層的其他工作人多為什麼你護士可以比我7-11打工的多為什麼可以這樣其實國家不能這樣子比每個人有他的專業他適合什麼樣的薪水的那個range全世界皆然嘛就現在會搞得說一個群組一個族群被他丟包那今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9419.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9442.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
政府就覺得一個蘿蔔一個燈只要有人在這個位置就好這個人能力怎麼樣我不在乎所以這幾年我們看到是公務員報考人數越來越少警察報考人數越來越少好的人才都不到公務體系那政府一直跟我說你有沒有想過勞工勞工收入才多少憑什麼公務員跟我要這個薪水當全世界先進國家對公務員的取材希望走向精英 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9442.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9469.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
把精英來幫我們擬定最好的政策讓國家一起向上發展結果我們的政府不是他只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑就好什麼樣的人才來都可以不懂交通的去幹交通部長反正就不懂這個的去做什麼部長現在變成這個樣子所以只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑這個人是不是專長他一點都不care所以這就是會讓國家整個制度越走越不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9470.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9492.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
如果我們國家都剩下二流三流的人來幫我們擬定國家重大政策的時候我們很難變成是一流的國家我們這幾年的經濟狀況社會狀況已經很嚴重了我就說我們鄰近的強盛的國家都用精英在找最好的人就像一間公司的治理我都希望找最好的人來當我們的專業經理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9493.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9518.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
結果你今天不說 不用啦 那個專業經理人找這個人來 只要一個月三萬塊就可以你為什麼要找那個一個月要二十萬的然後你再比這個然後好 到最後公司就一團亂這就是我們現在國家的一個狀況 也是我擔心的那出了問題之後 政府一個族群一個族群一個族群的棄養丟包所以我才希望說站出來守住最後的這一塊我不希望國家整個毀掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9520.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9544.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
社會越來越 狀況越來越不好 經濟不好我說的經濟是指庶民百姓而不是指經濟的高端階層我們的平均薪資不錯但是我們的薪資中位數很慘但是這些薪資中位數以下的人他們卻是我們現在生小孩或是我們這個社會的最中間的分子就我們現在新生兒出生率剩下0.87請問各位在座的你怎麼對得起我們子子孫孫 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9546.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9560.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們現在國家一年要少多少幾年後剩下人家說再過幾年台灣出生率一年剩6萬個人那我們根本不用等敵人來打我們我們自己就亡國所以我一直覺得說我們到底在創造什麼樣的國家給下一代呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9561.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9577.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我現在看到整個國家憲政制度整個崩壞以前說五院制衡現在是大家一起來集團來作亂我跟你講行政院帶頭違法不執行三讀通過的法律如此荒謬的鬧劇發生在中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9578.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9594.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
第二個 司法院司法院 大法官搞出那個五大於六那個然後講了一大堆亂七八糟的什麼救生員理論自欺騙自欺然後因為我是大法官 我說了算但是我們所有人都覺得你荒謬的鬧劇他也沒有 他也不care啊那司法院的高官來這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9595.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9613.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我只不過問他說法律宣布違憲之前人民有沒有遵守的義務他不敢講一直在兜圈子連這個最基本的憲政ABC他都不敢講在兜圈子如果連一個司法人員當法官的人都沒有勇氣對抗不對的事情的時候我怎麼期待國家能夠強盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9614.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9640.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
然後再來監察院院長虛位一年多當然他身體因素我不會有其他的那個啦但畢竟他也是虛位一年多這是一個客觀的事實又爆出監察院濫用公務車搞那些公家的資源然後我去監察院我具裝去那邊檢舉卓榮泰違法也都沒有下文了好那現在呢本來我們最後我覺得最乾淨的一塊考試院跟權序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9642.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9667.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
過往權序部建議說你們應該要撥補什麼預算行政院應該編列但行政院沒有做這件事的時候貴部貴院沒有跳出來講話就今天反而再跳出來說要趕快要提事先要怎麼樣所以到底公務員的娘家你們你是站在公務員的角度幫公務員爭取權益還是繼續在幫行政院在護航這是我必須我要講出我深刻因為我幹過25年24年半的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9671.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9686.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我真的看到這樣子下去我覺得不忍心因為你們對於基層公務員斤斤計較但是破壞整個國家制度的你們卻視而不見所以你現在跟我們講說審定函要半年那我就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9689.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9702.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我是予以尊重但是我還是希望說這不是一個消極的抵抗這不是一個對於公務員以及對於在野黨的消極抵抗我希望不是這樣所以我才希望你們資料一定要一直拿給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9704.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9712.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
最後我想提一下法務部剛剛次長如果要上來的話法務部剛剛有提到一個點確實剛剛次長講的沒有錯就是在起訴之後的審理期間確實你講的沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9721.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9740.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這個跟真實發現無關而是你們的重點是放在怕逃亡因為我剛剛再仔細再一次去看你們的報告所以次長您說的這完全正確但是我的意思還是這樣就一個案件已經起訴進入審理中陳生法官他已經所有的卷證資料他都看了但是他認為可以不押可以交保可以限制駐居 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9741.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9758.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
其實法務部實在是沒有理由用看告去推翻法官他看完卷證資料之後所認為有逃亡的風險所以更何況你們還有一些替代的東西譬如說我們有科技監控等等的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9758.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9784.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以我的草案不是否認被告在起訴之後就沒有逃亡的風險我認為還是有我自己有實務經驗我認為還是有但是呢是不是應該讓檢察官在起訴把被告交給法院接押的時候的接押庭把事情說清楚講明白之後讓法官自己去決定要不要押所以我說我們的訴訟制度學美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9785.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9800.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
目前刑事訴訟制度交互結婚許願美國但美國他就沒有所謂的檢察官在審理中的案件看告這個問題那是不是說我們這個部分應該是把重心放在檢察官檢察官在偵查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9801.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9818.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
他要押人他要怎麼做我覺得這一定要保障檢察官偵查了這個權益所以有一些人的提案包括其他委員的提案我都不簽我不認同因為我覺得有一些東西你不能隨隨便便這樣子做但是我認為起訴之後到院方 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9819.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9842.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
審理逃亡與否這個是法官的全責更何況如果今天這個人跑掉了是法官要擔責任不是檢察官對不對那你憑什麼檢察官可以來決定法官這個裁定是錯的報告委員有權就會有責那今天法官做的這個裁定在檢察官看來這個人還是會逃亡這個人還會繼續來威脅證人那檢察官的認為是繼續要結才是妥當沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9847.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9876.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
沒有 處長你講錯了檢察官 所以我說接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭論述講清楚 說明白為什麼這個人要繼續押他在審理中檢察官也可以繼續講嘛這個人需要押但是決定權要交給法官來決定而不是讓檢察官可以說不要我們認為上級的法官也要表示意見的機會我們必須抗告以後讓上級的法院來裁判一審的法官我知道這是部裡面的想法嘛但是我要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9877.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9894.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那個市長說明一下我認為已經起訴到法院了決定權其實應該交由法官檢察官要盡其所能的把他認為被告可能會逃亡的理由盡量的告訴法官但是由法官來做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9894.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9910.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我認為是這樣更何況那個法官是陳審法官這個被告會不會跑掉其實這個法官要擔全部的責任不是檢察官所以你說的全責分明沒錯所以講法官有權下這個裁定他也必須要有責任去扛這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9912.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9933.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我的意思是這樣我懂委員的意思但是法官扛責任這個對整個社會大眾來講我們考慮的是一個案件最後的結果還有民眾的心理沒關係 這個部分我覺得我很尊重因為次長你也是一線檢察官出色這個部分我們可以溝通將來到我們在討論案子的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9934.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9954.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我提我的草案那您說的也不是完全沒有道理所以我們可以去討論都不要有還是限制次數等等我覺得這就是一個法律上面的研討所以我提我的想法但我也非常尊重法務部的想法我覺得各有各的道理但是你也不能夠否認說其實到法院之後為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9955.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9981.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
刑事訴訟制度讓檢察官到審理期間不得申請羈押而是由法官才能羈押它有它的道理如果你說我們怕他跑要檢察官要有表示意見的機會那你刑事訴訟制度就直接設計檢察官可以申請在法院審理時可以申請羈押就好了為什麼刑事訴訟制度在法院審理的時候不讓檢察官有申請羈押權它也有它的制度的原因所以這個部分將來我希望我們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9982.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9987.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
做一个实质的好好讨论我当然很尊重贵部的一些想法因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9988.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10012.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
到審理之後法官比檢察官更怕人跑掉因為跑掉他要背責任的第二個我們國家其實花了很多錢在搞科技監控所以科技監控這塊也是可以彌補很多不能說所有東西都是檢察官認為說這個會跑所以我要押因為認為會不會跑不能當作說我要押你所以我百分之百有理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10013.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10037.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這逃亡風險可是就是勾串證人這一個部分沒有辦法用課金我現在不是在跟你逃勾串我現在一直在講審理中你一直拉到偵查中勾串我沒有講這一塊因為事實上起訴後的被告會施壓要求證人翻供是有的這個我都懂所以我也跟你講所以我們剛剛不是你自己講我們講的你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10039.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10065.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
你們並不是在談真實發現這一塊這是您剛說的不是在談我理解因為我看過你們的報告我們在談的是逃亡所以我們現在就逃亡的部分去講至於說勾串之語那個是另外一個議題我並沒有去討論那個議題所以這部分再麻煩因為我認為說羈押他是法官保留不能把他變回檢察官保留最後我講不好意思因為今天我們還有其他的委員大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10067.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10093.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
第一個我希望起訴的時候把羈押的必要性說清楚我剛剛等吳思瑤等好久你知道嗎第二個我希望你起訴的時候把羈押必要性寫清楚那你擔心有逃亡篡證再犯就具體說明第二個起訴羈押庭要實質攻防檢察官要到庭說明第三個審理中的羈押決定回歸法官的公平審判才是王道謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10099.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10116.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
接下來請陳培宇委員發言朱熹時間真的太久了那個有請法務部謝謝法務部還有司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10120.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10148.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
委員好好 兩位早我想今天召委安排這個刑事訴訟法的審查可是因為裡面有民眾黨團的提案的版本那至於民眾黨團提案的版本有多麼荒謬剛剛審發會委員也好或是無私要委員都說得非常清楚我就不再贅述可是我覺得還是想要提醒相關的主管機關你們在看待委員修法的時候絕對不要再說尊重大院的決議因為現在所謂你們口中的大院就是立法院通常就是三讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10148.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10169.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
表決過關甚至呢相關的討論都不願意進行實質討論那到底是為了照顧什麼樣的個案也看不清楚所以我不希望後續再看到你們所謂的尊重大院的決定因為如果按照這個版本呢就會變成如果按照民眾黨團的版本今天不敢出席的黃國昌委員的版本就會變成是行為人可以篡政但是不可以滅政 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10170.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10191.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
太荒謬串證串到寶大串證時代即將來臨我們來看一下相關資料來下一張根據法務部網站統計資料呢積壓的前三名喔都來到詐欺毒品危害防治條例還有竊盜我們來看113年的數字我把這前三項加起來呢大概就佔了78% |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10192.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10218.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
也就是我們花了很多力氣在確保詐欺毒品危害防治還有竊盜的相關罪犯不要有串證的問題所以我們做了羈押這個動作可是這件事情如果在民眾黨團眼睛看起來他們覺得辦詐欺案也好或者是辦這個毒品危害防治條例不會有串證的問題所以他們把串證的這個拿掉所以我當然覺得非常的荒謬可是因為荒謬的法案我不想浪費時間我只是做出提醒來下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10219.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10233.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那我們來看一下如果我所謂的串證這個問題被拿掉會發生什麼樣的事情我用這個毛俊坤的案子為例之前呢我看簡報的左手邊框起來這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10234.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10257.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這個案件最早被通報的時候是在111年的7月7號可是一直到113年的9月底才被起訴那這段期間呢毛顯總共陸續對39名幼童犯罪743次還包含持有兒少性影像869部照片1679張而我們看相關的犯罪時間點就落在111的7月到113的9月 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10258.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10277.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那我们当时就想如果当时有及早的羁押这一名行为人是不是就可以避免更多儿少的困境所以后续呢我自己也提出了修法我在2024年提出我希望羁押的规定可以纳入儿少性剥削防治条例36跟38的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10277.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10298.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我很開心看到司法院在之前的新聞稿也競表贊同那我後續看到今天司法院跟法務部的報告應該都是一樣的立場那甚至也感謝你們提醒我們其實把36的其他四五項擴充進去這個部分我們後續會提出修正動議感謝你們對於兒少的關心跟支持那我當然也希望更多的委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10298.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10319.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
好那以上這邊請問兩位還有表示任何意見嗎因為我們現在看到司法院的報告是還沒有送進立法院對不對是只有報告給行政院會那有機會送進來嗎司法院這邊的修法的還是你們自己不送因為那是屬於刑事訴訟法是屬於司法院主責的那個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10320.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10342.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那司法院已經院會通過了 去年就已經通過了也已經送到法務部跟行政院那現在還在行政院審查好 那我們就等行政院後續送出那行政院這邊 法務部這邊有什麼建議現在那個草案在行政院裡面好 那有預計什麼時候要送嗎因為委員這邊已經 召委這邊已經排審了你們有預計什麼時候要送嗎這個我大概要等行政院開會決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10343.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10353.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好 那再盡快給我們回覆好不好因為我怕召委這邊如果很快要把它往下走完好 兩位請回 謝謝那接下來有請全序部施部長還有人事總署 謝謝委員好部長我從一個新聞上看到您一直以來始終如一我非常的驚訝在2017年呢 中國時報有一個報導您當時是人事總長 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10373.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10400.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
對那個那個年代我是當人事長你當時就說年輕公務員離職應該是重考不同科別跟年金改革沒有關係很開心8年後您站在這裡依然為年金改革持續說話給你一個大大的讚一個有風骨的人對於自己在講的事情價值觀非常清楚不會有人一下從黃的變白的可能會變紅的所以部長您非常了不起那我們如果接下來看更多實質的問題我們今天不來討論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10401.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10421.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
可能違憲年金改革我想跟您討論公職人員考試這件事情我們因為關心離職的問題不像有的委員指揮妹妹那沒有去看相關資料我們來看一下相關資料確實近三年來公務人員未滿三年的離職人數真的還蠻多的那我們就去猜想可能的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10421.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10441.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
如果所謂的一個立法委員想要立出好的法案真的想要協助改變問題那我們就要去找到問題的根源我們來看一下考試院的會議記錄裡面在114年的7月31號裡面有說高達20.5%的人可能有重複錄取的狀況也就是他曾經考上可是還要去重考 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10442.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10458.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我們就開始想他有什麼原因可能要去重考我們確實去問了一些比較年輕的公務人員他們給了我們一些說法的可能性也想聽聽看部長您的意見有一個說因為分發地點比較像是抽盲盒的概念部長你知道什麼叫盲盒嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10460.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10479.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好好抽盲盒就是不知道會抽到哪裡去還有呢公務機關的勞動條件欠佳當然我知道你們已經很努力在改善可是抽盲盒這件事情現在還沒有辦法改善原因是他要分發的時候他並不知道會分發到哪裡去那如果家裡面有比較小的小孩要照顧那該怎麼辦呢我們來看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10480.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10498.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那現在我知道在公務人員申簽法第五條第三項裡面有說只要職務列等相同而且職務相當並且經過徵審委員會同意就可以互換對不對那可是我比較好奇他要怎麼找到可以跟他互換的人我們現在有相關平台嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10499.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10515.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我理解應該沒有特別的沒有特別設計這個平台但是應該這樣講所有機關如果有出缺他都要公告在市球園人球市上面會有一個上面的搜尋功能我的印象我上去用過應該還不錯部長因為我沒有用過 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10518.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10545.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我也很好奇假設這個平台他還有機會再改善針對我們的公務人員他想要再換回轉調回他自己的家鄉或者是他的孩子他的家人所在的地方這個平台有沒有可能再改善這個後續我們會再跟你們討論好不好但我想我就先提出這個建議因為你說事求人人求事現在已經有相關機制但是可不可以積極的媒合這些想要回到自己家鄉想要回去照顧小孩照顧爸媽的應該說媒合這個功能應該可能但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10546.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10558.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
資訊揭露應該是非常清楚結論我知道了有資訊揭露可是媒合條款可能還不夠媒合平台機制還不夠那我們辦公室希望持續跟你們討論這一題好不好這個事情是總處負責總處負責我會請總處幫忙好不好你就說好就好了好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10562.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10580.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
因為我們確實想要協助這些公務員改善相關問題再來下一個修法可能會需要兩位一起負責關於養育子女的部分現在在公務人員任用法第22條第二項裡面規定說年資一年以上養育三歲以下的子女你就可以申請轉調對嗎現在是這樣寫的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10584.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10601.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們來看一下如果用兒少權法來看因為我們想要擴大留任公務員所以我們回頭想他們有什麼原因有可能現在兒少權法裡面第51條提到的是六歲以下的兒童或是所謂需要特別看護的兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10602.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10629.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這個是所謂兒少全法裡面對於孩子們的定義跟想像有沒有機會我們的公務人員這個請調的規定可以搭配兒少全法做一個修法的可能性想要聽聽看兩位的意見這個細節我想謝謝委員提供我回去跟部裡面的主管司再看看有沒有這種可能性因為畢竟那個轉調我們有一個公平性的一個問題對我知道我知道如果有這種可能性的話我們會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10631.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10656.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那我在加碼的說就是說因為我們在考慮少子化我們就是方方面面去想所以如果他都已經願意生養小孩了我們再加碼再把三歲擴充到六歲這個事情要沒有花多餘的預算的情況之下有沒有機會真的讓年輕的公務員有生養孩子的公務員甚至他可能家裡面有特殊狀況的兒童包含我們最近在修身障全法或是之前在修特教法 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10656.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10680.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我们知道台湾有越来越多孩子有所谓不同特教样态的需求其实需要爸爸妈妈更多时间照顾他们陪在身边那我们办公室也希望可以提出相关的见解跟修法的建议因为我们来看过去从2023年修法公务人员任用法只有208个人使用相关的调职的规定我们觉得很可惜一定他们可是我前面还讲有百分之二十几个人是重考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10681.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10701.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以我认为如果把可能的原因圈起来可能会是往这里方向去规划所以我们办公室这边最后一张我们希望相关的人才媒合机制可以更加积极还有公务人员任用法22条把三岁扩充到六岁这件事情符合儿少全法的精神我们办公室会再积极跟两个部会讨论也请你们给我们相关的规划报告两个月内有可能吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10702.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10729.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這個事情我們回去會討論那所謂規劃報告如果借電程說是把我們的意見提供給委員知道我想不是說我們一定要這樣做就是我們先聽聽看你們的意見嘛因為我今天是第一次提出來那全序部也好人總也好這邊我們都希望提供給我們相關專業的意見因為對於公務員很多現場服務的樣態的熟悉你們絕對比我們更高好嗎那我們只是就兒少這個部分提出我們的建議跟看法好謝謝兩位謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10732.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10733.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
好 謝謝 接下來請我們紅衛委員發言好 謝謝主席 先請我們考試院秘書長以及我們權敘部部長好 請秘書長和部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10752.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10776.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
委員長好 早安 先請教一下秘書長我們現在考試院已經向大法官申請釋憲了嗎有關於公教人員停侃年紀的部分 是什麼時候申請 上禮拜四上個星期四 對不對就申請釋憲那請問一下您知道行政院也已經就這件事情這個議題申請釋憲了嗎知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10778.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10802.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以這應該是創下一個記錄兩院同時因為一個法案當然兩個法案公務人員跟公教人員同時兩院雙管齊下去申請釋憲不覺得是對於我們退休公教人員的一個很強大壓力的追殺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10804.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10826.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
絕對沒有這個問題因為畢竟這樣的修法使得退府基金會提前四年用慶這個對後面的公教人員來說這個是很大的風險所以考量到基金永續的角度所以行政院去申請事項還不夠然後考試院也要加碼因為法律主管機關不一樣因為教育部是行政院主管公務人員是考試院主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10827.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10849.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個已經是創下我們大概憲政史上兩個院級一起去實現那剛才院也問了很多因為你們現在是一個所謂技術性說要半年的時間做重新審定那我想請問一下考試院如果在這半年之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10853.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10869.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
大法官沒有做出任何的釋憲那到時候就要上路那上路之後呢上路之後是不是應該要回溯回溯到我們法律裡面規定的114年1月份開始對不起 112年是不是要回溯 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10877.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10892.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因為法律的寫法並沒有讓這個法案提前生效它是從去年的12月28日生效所以12月28號以前它會依照舊法的規定發放所以你們要繼續賴皮囉沒有 這個沒有賴皮的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10894.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10917.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
你看我們退伏法最後一條其實過去的修法都有法例說某些修正的條文他可能是指定後面的日期某一天生效也有指定前面在法律通過公佈之前生效的條文我們在法律上有回溯我們法律上有回溯但是這一次修法沒有這樣寫他沒有去指定生效日 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10918.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10938.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以他就會變成是總統公佈後三天生效生效之前你必須用舊法去執行生效之後用新法所以你們要繼續再做賴皮這沒有賴皮另外在時間點上因為你說這個是涉及18萬的公教人員所以要用半年的時間18萬公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10940.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10956.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
公務人員但是我想請問一下因為當年在2018年7月1號開始實施軍公教停侃年金當時的軍人的部分他的三讀通過的時間是2018年的6月20號三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10960.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10983.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
但是當時擔任行政院長的賴清德院長他當時就說7月1號同步上路同步上路也就是在軍人的部分事實上是2018年的6月20才三讀通過可是他也在當年的7月1號與公教同步的施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10984.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11006.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以我覺得其實要不要施行是在為政者的一念之間我承認因為當時公教的部分是在前一年完成三讀我知道在前一年完成三讀然後他在隔一年的7月1號開始上路但是軍人的部分因為當時軍人他的爭議性也很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11007.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11033.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以他當時軍人的部分是在當年的6月20號三讀通過所以我要講的是其實什麼時候正式的上路是在為政者的一念之間呢而並不在於說你們今天以一個所謂的重新審定其實看起來因為你們去提出視線了你們去提出視線只不過是想要用時間來換取空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11036.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11061.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這是兩個獨立的事件 威恩就像您講的公教人員在2017年8月的時候法案公佈2018年7月1號上路中間這10個月的時間我們全序部的同仁是大動員然後假日加班沒日沒夜的在做重新審定的工作如果執行面可以彈指之間一念之間就讓它實現的話公務同仁都不用存在了 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11062.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11082.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
現在我請問 因為你們說大概需要半年時間因為你剛才在回答其他委員的時候也說只要在按照我們的法律的程序如果大法官有一種可能他沒有提出就是說這是不違憲 但這個可能性比較低因為現在大法官完全都是聽從賴總統的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11084.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11105.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那也有可能說他沒有排反正他在這個半年之間他都沒有做出違憲的一個判定的時候那請問一下按照這個時間可不可以在今年的7月1號正式上路呢如果審定工作都完成了那各機關你們可以去定一個目標啊不是嗎所以我們講說大概預估就是六個月吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11111.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11133.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
對啊六個月啊我六個月我說你七月一號上路不是也剛剛好嗎好我希望你們能夠你們能夠說到做到雖然我認為是時間換取時間那個空間時間換取空間對不起時間暫停一下我現在再請我們內政部今天內政部是警政署人事室主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11143.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11148.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個部分其實是我認為是劉士芳部長的責任但是我要特別提一下就是警察人員的人事條例因為我們已經是占讀通過但是你們也是拒不執行拒不執行之外你們甚至在警察人員的定義裡面把移民署排除在外把移民署排除在外 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11169.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11176.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
但是這很沒有道理因為當年林右昌當時他做這個所謂的危險加擠的時候他做危險加擠的時候他把這個移民署還有空情他認為這個也有他的危險所以把他納入了這個比照警察也調高15% |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11190.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11192.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
可是這一次警察人員的人事條例三讀之後第一個當然你們拒不執行拒不編這個法定預算但是你們又把警政署的人員把他移除了我認為這非常不合理因為警政人員過去他也是從警察他所移出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11210.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11239.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
另外還有一個就是在你們的這個照護方案就是對於警消的這個照護方案醫療照護方案在所有跟這個警消相關的人事單位裡面你們又獨獨排除了移民署的人事也就是他們這個警消的一個醫護照顧你們又把移民署給排除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11240.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11264.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
因為移民署它事實上也有司法警察的角色跟它的功能所以這部分我覺得我要特別為移民署的人員來做來幫他們做陳情來幫他們來爭取所以我希望今天在我們警消海巡還有這些空情移民署的人員他們過去都源自於警察希望不要有這種兩套標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11267.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11291.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
不要讓他們好像變成是在你們整個的系統裡面你們作為次等公民我這樣因為你們是幕僚人員我希望你們能夠帶回去未來也能夠幫他們來說話爭取一下好不好好 以上謝謝好 謝謝那麼因為我們剛剛宣告說要中間休息五分鐘就不好意思請莊委員體諒好 那我們大家先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11308.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11309.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11578.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11602.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
接下來我們現在開會接下來是鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在然後鄭天才委員跟鄭委員提醒因為非本委員會的委員4分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11611.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11638.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
好 謝謝 請秘書長還有部長好 張副人事長好 這個有關警察人員人事條例這個其實本席107年就質詢當時的前序部部長也就是現在的考試院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11639.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11661.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
他都同意因為警消跟一般的公務人員真的是不一樣所以警察人員的警消的這些退休服這些退服規定要定在警察人員人事條例終於拖了很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11663.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11689.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
公布施行的這個警察人員人事條例的修正條文在去年的4月25號公布施行公布施行之後也已經生效了生效這個按照這個考試院的報告你們做了相關的這些很辛苦的來去審定也做了一個完成的審定 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11690.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11714.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那現在執行面的部分要怎麼接下來已經審定了所以來回因為這個牽涉到行政院的預算前所以這個部分考試院已經把這個部分的工作完成了那接下來就是預算的問題這個要請這個考試院前序部還有人事行政總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11717.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11744.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
要去跟左院長報告或協調當然就考試院來講要去協調已經審定公佈施行就尤其是考試院或者是人事行政總書而言依法行政公佈生效有效的法例這個部分真的是一個需要我們好好的去溝通協調的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11746.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11772.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好 我們看這個公務人員退休之前撫恤法的修正114年12月26號總統公佈施行這個我們卓榮泰院長也附屬了附屬表示同意對不對 就附屬了然後現在情緒部的報告也說114年12月28號 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11776.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11800.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
公布施行之後生效生效這個考試院的報告卻因為說這個將使退府基金提前用盡意思本院難以順遂推行推行使基金永續之法定限定執掌因此本院已向憲法法庭提出釋憲及暫時處分之申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11808.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11828.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個如果用這樣的那個理由用這個理由因為退伏基金會提前用盡用這個理由這個理由真的是很牽強用這個理由真的是很牽強那是一個財政另外一個問題這個秘書長一直要回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11835.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11855.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我就是跟委員報告說財政問題很嚴重這個牽涉到後面年輕世代的權益這個部分不能因為這個理由來去釋憲我們再回顧我已經講了很多次了你也聽了很多次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11856.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11883.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
国家年金改革委员会是蔡英文总统成立的由陈建仁当时的副总统主持召开跨院跨专业专家写者开了20次的会议然后由考试院提出了公务院退休之前符系法的版本结果立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11885.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11908.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
當時立法院民進黨記憶絕對多數對不對考試院的版本是小砍立法院把它大砍我上次沒有機會跟您說明因為那時候你已經離開了我要修正一個可能您的記憶年金改革委員會提出的版本跟考試院後來提出的版本不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11910.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11928.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
考試院砍得比較少年改會的決議那個社會討論20多次還有說明會等等那個程序出來的決議是後來的應該是當時行政院提出的版本行政院提出的教育人員版本是依照那個年改會的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11929.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11956.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那民進黨黨團提了一個版本那民進黨還有 當時還有別的國會議員還有提出各種修正版本只是我要講的是說考試院不是照年改會的決議去提版本的好 不管怎麼樣啊都是砍 小砍 大砍而現在是停砍立法院是停砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11957.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11987.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以你要用這個做理由是事先的做理由真的是最主最重要的最重要的因為軍公教本來就要依法行政然後考試院行政院要帶頭不依法行政然後用這個是財政的是另外一個財政的問題就像勞保對不對還有財政的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11988.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11996.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
也有財政的問題所以這個另外一個制度的問題好不好這個部分是一個需要審慎的一邊釋憲一邊也會依法來執行以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12002.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12023.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 謝謝鄭委員 那接下來我們就請莊銳選 對不起接下來是黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在賴世寶委員賴世寶委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在那接下來我們就請莊銳選委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12030.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12044.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好謝謝最美麗的召委來有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長還有我們權敘部施囊結師部長行政院人事總處我們張秋元副人事長還有部長我來請教一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12053.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12077.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們公務人員請假的規則 這個第三條第一項第六款現行的規定配偶跟父母 貴姓起了 父母跟配偶死亡者傷假15天繼父母配偶的父母跟姪女死亡者給傷假10天然後曾祖父祖父母配偶的祖父母配偶的繼父母兄弟姊妹死亡者5天 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12080.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12104.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個邏輯我不知道這個邏輯是怎樣我們一直在講說我們往上從己身所從出往上從己身所出後面的人說要走慈禧學信 北清書這個假有的十五天有的十天有的五天你們那個背後的思維跟邏輯到底是什麼痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12108.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12115.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
對不對 應該是講痛苦啦說 啊 現在父母親死掉 一定會很痛苦可是現在小孩子死掉了 就不痛苦嘛配偶死了 多痛苦啦 我覺得這怎麼量化的問題怎麼去量化那我都會覺得說 這有點舊時代的一個思維啦你很難在現代社會裡面 家庭結構已經改變了那我們再去 你看本身的兄弟姊妹就變五天 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12136.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12163.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這好奇怪然後公務人員呢父母親死掉的是商假是15天那勞工的就變8天繼父母的部分呢跟配偶的父母子女死亡者10天勞工的部分呢又變6天這個既然是在講痛苦那這個痛苦為什麼會有這個我們先不談說公務人員跟勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12166.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12189.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
光這個你看公務人員體系裡面這個整個親疏之間要痛苦的量化還有說可能辦喪事要很久可能有這樣的思維邏輯在這樣這都我覺得很亂的是不是以現代社會的家庭的結構這少子化你說父母親照顧小孩所以死掉要給他很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12190.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12206.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
合理啊 我認為很合理啊因為父母親嘛 養我們的嘛可是有的人是父母親當然我們要孝順他可是像我們這個鄉下的父母親哪有時間教養我們都沒有啊 都要去工作啊都是阿公養我們啊那對我來講那個阿公反而要給他20天30天 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12211.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12233.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
不是嗎 那現在社會家庭又改變了可能互相扶持 大家感情最好的你要講痛苦的話 搞不好兄弟姊妹那個死亡的話 應該是更痛苦啊所以你有沒有感覺啊這個剛才 婦人市長在這裡比如說 你的看法 我看你一直笑你的看法是怎麼樣 那個邏輯你不覺得這個應該做一個改變嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12235.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12253.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這個題會牽涉到不同的比如說商場習俗 家庭觀念現在社會家庭結構的改變的確會有委員講的那樣子就是它會有很多觀念可能過去定的規則現在看起來會有一點不完全合宜或者是邏輯上不完全一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12253.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12267.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以我的意思就是說每一個家庭結構每一個人對祖父母或對父母或對兄弟姊妹之間那一種感情那種感情大家感受會有所不一樣那這個思維就是在講痛苦那第二可能講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12270.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12279.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這麼親密的人死掉了可能要智商智商每一個人又不一樣宗教別又不一樣有的人兩天有的人三天有的人一個禮拜像我在鄉下我父母親過世我就給他一個月我就自己拿著那個父文去告訴通知我爸爸媽媽他們最好的朋友說你再生的誰誰誰誰已經過世了讓他們知道也是這樣子而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12293.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12310.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我拖一天耶 我要洗澡整天這樣照照照照照照照一天老爸老婆我都一天啊每天在那裡我就坐在那裡 不敢嘛所以每一個人會不一樣有人的時間長 有人的時間短但我的意思就是說既然我們看起來這個思維就只有兩個一個就是親情 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12311.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12317.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
然後我們用舊時代的規章去把它做量化但這個量化出來以現在來看 到底合不合理我真的是存疑啦我真的是存疑啦六天 你說現在在家裡的保溫到三天而已啦你說配偶的配偶的父母又是十天啦 又是十天啦這看起來我就覺得這個邏輯都很亂剛有辦法來做一個研議 來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12339.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12368.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好像比較跟上跟得上我也不敢說這樣就跟不上時代是不要讓他那麼混亂畢竟太久沒有去考慮這個問題啦這個我印象中這個請教規則你問我說哪一個幾天幾天說實在我也答不上我也不跟你說那個確實有不同的用天數啦是上限這個請教規則很久很久沒有修過了說真的就這一個部分啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12368.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12386.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以你也趕快樂觀其成啦就是說我們來嘛這樣委員會有跟我們來想想看啦想一下啦就想一下這樣看有沒有他一定當初有當初各式各樣的考量啦只是說這考量現在所以我們現在就是放得糊裡糊塗啦有當初的考量可是現在不一樣啦就想想看啦好不好副委員長你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12389.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12410.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我做一個說明啦 就是這個真的是因為真的規則從三幾年發布這樣一直下來那過去商價應該會像委員剛才講的可能跟我們過去的這個智商的習俗等等的都會以那個當事人為核心嘛 北部就可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12417.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12434.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以會有不一樣的的確時間是延期下來我們會配合全部再來看看應該現在的變動變動好不好是不是可以謝謝還有在我最後一分鐘以下那個那個法務部次長請上來一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12441.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12461.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
社長我看這次台灣民眾黨提出的刪除勾串共犯跟證人作為羈押室友的一個修法的一個提案我想過去這個社會其實是有很大的一個爭議那今天這個案子排進來本學必須要很嚴正的去講出來以現在來看的話你刪除掉勾串共犯跟證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12462.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12474.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我比較擔心的是會貪玩掉整個重大犯罪一個溯源的一個能力你像譬如說我們現在很多這個如果刪掉的話我為什麼有很大的一個疑慮你詐騙的話你就抓到了人如果說不能押 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12479.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12500.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
然後金流繼續在跑手機也繼續在通然後上游的人在幕後的大家都笑嘻嘻我很擔心這個拆掉整個刑事司法裡面再抓一個重大犯罪的一個架構我當然知道這個提案是希望讓它更文明可是我很擔心這個文明到最後變失明 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12501.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12509.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
簡單你 你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個想法跟配套或者說這樣的一個修法會不會產生怎樣的一個衝擊聽你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12510.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12535.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好 謝謝委員我想原來的法律的規定就是法官審查已經非常的完備了我們執行這麼多年來也沒有問題那現在如果把這個勾串證人共犯跟被告刪除的話如委員剛才所講的這些重大的經濟犯罪還有科技洩密還有國安案件 詐團這些案子如果主嫌犯沒有押起來相關的人沒有押起來的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12536.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12552.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
出去馬上把他的髒證物處理掉人就跑掉了所以你們也擔心產生非常的擔心我們非常非常的不樂見這樣的修法好啦 我們再考慮一下啦謝謝 阿杜仔忘記給考試員跟人總先請回很抱歉謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12554.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12573.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
好謝謝莊委員那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言那麼我們待會也先處理會議時間上午會議時間就繼續進行到所有的登記發言委員詢答結束為止那麼今天的其他案子呢我們就再會定期討論好那接下來請洪孟凱委員好麻煩我們請考試院劉秘書長那以及我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12583.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12595.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
內政部好不好內政部應該是警政署跟人事處好不好麻煩來 秘書長是我想請教一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12596.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12623.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
剛剛鄭天才委員以及我們幾位委員其實之前都已經講過說現在年金停侃的部分其實它是停侃過去已經執行了差不多六年七年的時間也有往下降的一個趨勢那當初在2017年的時候的立法過程裡面您剛剛也特別提到就是說有分三個版本至少我們了解的三個版本考試院有提出一個版本年金改革小組也有提出一個版本以及到最後民進黨團也有提出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12623.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12645.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那以這三個版本來講是考試院版本的這個降低是最少的是不是對 考試院版本當然有一個過程全劇部本來是依照年改會的版本提出到考試院之後 但是到最後通過的到最後通過的是立法院通過的是民進黨團的版本不完全是啦而且那個其實當然還有委員的修正版也不是民進黨團版而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12646.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12672.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
但確實就是大家會覺得是說那個時候通過的是粗糙而且是到最後是大砍的一個部分也因此我們現在才會講是說但是大砍大砍是事實也因此現在才講是說時代變遷條件以及物價整個上漲的部分那該調整也調整了年金改革沒有人反對但重點在於是說能不能合理永續的讓大家都可以有一個最基本的保障那我想請教一下來 重點在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12673.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12674.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
重點在於是說現在我有看你們的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12677.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12703.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
報告裡面有講是說已經有跟憲法法庭提出釋憲跟暫時處分的申請了是 上禮拜四那目前現在的進度是什麼那就是遞件了那遞件會不會受理那個就是看他們的速度好 那我想請教一下那中華民國我們有相關法令的規定嘛那如果說在任何的機關或是申請人申請譬如說暫時處分或是說釋憲的部分的話那還沒有裁定之前是不是應該依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12705.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12713.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我們現在退服法的修正部分我們也一方面釋憲另外一方面我們也會來進行審定的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12714.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12737.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
是啊 所以說是不是應該現在三讀通過法令總統已經公告了是不是就應該要執行就應該要執行啊那到目前為止還是原用舊的這個制度是什麼回事這是因為執行需要時間那就重新核算的需要多少時間我們講說大概就六個月的時間這不是技術性拖延跟技術性配合嗎以賴清德總統講說台灣是AI我們是AI之島我們是高科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12744.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12769.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
對 但過去到現在我們難道你說一般的民間企業一般的這個銀行要調整馬上就可以調整但是考試院到目前為止居然提出來是說用技術性杯葛六個月的一個時間不覺得這樣子其實是很荒謬的事情嗎程式如果設計出來了程式如果修正了電腦跑起來會很快但是修正程式有程序也需要時間那個是人要去做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12770.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12789.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
就是因為就是要人做的事情所以說你們現在的積極與否以及消極的態度就讓全國的軍公教看在眼裡嘛現在不就是變成是說應該是要幫全國的公教人員來捍衛權益的考試院反而是用行政部門的一種行政怠惰來去做延緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12790.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12815.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
不覺得這樣子其實很荒謬的事情嗎現在的公務同仁他們會不會過勞他們要需要多少時間去執行現在又在勤勒考試院秘書長你不需要勤勒我要先告訴你的部分是應該要執行要執行而你現在用這種行政怠惰的一個說法其實是說不過去絕對沒有怠惰其實不是講完就會直接做出來沒有長你的態度全國的公教人員都看在眼裡那我想請教一下內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12819.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12837.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
內政部那我們今天有討論到還有剛考試院秘書長講說要半年的時間這種行政怠惰是全國人大家都聽不下去但另外一個部分是我們有通過這個警察人士條例35條的部分那今天的報告本席也看到是說也針對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12841.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12870.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這個警察人士條例修正後增加的退休所得差額部分依行政院申請釋憲跟暫時處分的結果來辦理那本部配合辦理那我想請教一下現在行政院送釋憲跟暫時處分的狀態是什麼據了解應該行政院已經送出了那後續可能就要等司法院大法官這邊的後續處理是啊 那在還沒有判還沒有任何的裁決之前我們是應該要依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12872.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12892.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
跟委員報告基本上我想請教一下內政部在等什麼可以自己決定是說想要執行的法令就執行不想執行的法令就不執行我們還是要依據行政院的最後的指示來處理行政院是算是中華民國最高的行政機關但他也要依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12893.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12914.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那我現在想請教的是說你的狀態你剛剛也講很清楚啊考試院剛剛MU長講了啊送釋憲跟送暫時處分啊但是到目前為止還沒有裁示啊那如果說還沒有裁決之前是不是就應該要依總統公告過後的法令三讀通過法令來做執行那一樣到底內政部警察人士退休條例什麼時候通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12915.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12933.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
去年的4月27號去年的4月到現在也超過8個月了如果說以秘書長剛剛那麼偉大的講法要6個月的時間來調整那你內政部也調整完啦那你到今年你還是沒有給我們警察人士條例應該要依照新法的部分 什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12935.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12951.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
有關審定的部分我們的確在去年年底已經跟全區部合作那全區部這邊也都全部轉交到我們退休的警察人員的手上所以就審定的部分的確是已經依法完成了那但是因為後續這個你沒有執行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12953.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12967.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
現在我們面對到每一個警察同仁我也常講我說不管是年金不管是相關的部分改革我們一起支持努力但本席更重要就是只有八個字原則保障現職照顧退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12968.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12993.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那到現在你們講差額的部分還是沒有執行啊你自己的報告寫說依行政院申請釋憲及暫時處分結果辦理本部配合辦理什麼時候內政部也好什麼時候我們的行政部門也好是可以配合行政院然後不依法行政行政院比法律大是這樣嗎行政院比法律大 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12994.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13017.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
然後你後面我覺得更讓本席沒有辦法接受的是後面還多加一段本部為警察人員主管機關向來重視警察消防等人員權益還用粗體黑字有點噁心啊一方面講說重視警察消防人員權益另外一方面配合行政院打假球 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13018.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13047.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
八個月過去了然後現在在等行政院說送釋憲跟暫時處分好嘛送釋憲跟暫時處分現在暫時處分了沒還沒嘛那如果說現在暫時處分還沒的話內政部門內政部行政機關憑什麼不依法辦理我們法令可以這樣子自己解釋嗎我一個申請人我現在申請說我暫時處分我不要納稅我要釋憲不要納稅那我送出那一刻我就可以不繳稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13050.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13065.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
暫時處分是這樣用的嗎不是嘛那結果你們今天的報告還可以直接寫白紙黑字依行政院釋憲跟暫時處分那這就是依法無據啊跟我有報告 基本上行政議題所以行政院目前 行政議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13080.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13107.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
行政一體大過法律那叫獨裁國家行政一體你敢說還不敢講那叫獨裁國家獨裁國家才會行政一個人說了算總統一個人說了算大家不用看法律反正總統想怎麼樣就怎麼樣警察的退休的待遇消防退休的待遇海巡退休的待遇放著沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13109.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13127.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
因為這個不是執政黨提出來的案所以說他就可以擱著來抱歉主席一分鐘的時間我是不是請一下那個刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心主任張主任好不好來我們官員請回來張主任麻煩一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13136.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13162.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
主任本席過去到現在一直很關心詐欺的打詐的一個成效那我想請教因為每天的打詐儀表板本席都有看這個數字我不是要隨堂抽考你放心10月60億金額被詐騙11月59.8億被詐騙但12月上升了66億這都是打詐儀表板的數字本席幾乎每天都會去關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13162.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13183.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
等於是平均一天差不多2億多被詐騙那我想請教我們目前掌握的狀況10月 11月本席那個時候也提醒過就是說它看起來有一個天花板就是60億你真的要降不容易降就代表是說詐騙還是很猖獗你即便是宣導了165反詐騙等等的但是它有一個天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13183.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13212.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
但到12月突然又往上了變66億有沒有什麼樣的一個情緒或說你觀察到的樣態是什麼樣的樣態還是持續讓國人有被詐騙的一個風險或狀況鮑委員因為這個詐騙的問題它其實真的是很複雜如果說依照歷年這個20幾年來它詐騙的一個發展的趨勢其實它通常到年底到隔年的1月過年前通常會是一個其實過年前比較高峰對 會比較高峰就第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13212.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13240.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
第二個就是說其實在各項政策推動其中向推動最大的一個潛在被害人部分因為我們激發讓這些長期遭到詐騙的被害人提早出來報案所以這個也會造成可能數據會提早出來那另外一個就是我們也沒辦法做一個明確的定論就是說也有可能是因為但這個是沒辦法去證實就是說也有可能是因為太監打仗的原因包括緬甸 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13241.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13258.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
在好像前天跟昨天都有發布說他們當然我們沒辦法證實說這個是不是有在做是真實的那最主要就是說他可能今天炸毀了園區以後那這個會造成還在持續招詐的被害人因為他就提早清醒了因為沒有聯繫等於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13260.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13271.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
騙他的詐騙人他就沒辦法跟他們聯絡了所以他們就發現他們已經被騙了所以這幾個原因都是很有可能導致12月結果他的一個遭詐的財損就往上了 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13272.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13295.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
等於說會比11月的59.9億來得多6億多所以其實我們也還在觀察看看1月份目前的狀況因為1月份目前的狀況平均大概每天看起來大概也是1億多到2億多主任如果說在你這樣講的話我很尊重專業因為我覺得打詐是大家要一起來不分草野藍綠但是如果說在你這樣講的話那其實詐騙的歪風惡行並沒有因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13300.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13318.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們的這個強力的打仗而有所降低你今天的一個數字的提升因為為什麼 數字很重要因為它是很科學的東西它起來就起來 它下降就下降那本席的講師如果說你講師說是因為被破獲所以提前犯罪被害者來去做報案的話那過去這幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13320.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13347.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
民進黨政府一直在那邊跟我們強調或洗腦講說打詐有成效的都往下了錯了那根本就是蓋牌啊那就是之前蓋牌了那只是被害者還沒有報案沒想到因為破獲了首腦之後一掀開蟑螂跑出來了建議可以從6月看到12月因為他要看一個趨勢我有看到那趨勢是往下嘛但是12月就往上嘛那再來主任是 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13348.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13370.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
你那個趨勢我本席很實在話講如果你今天是一天只剩200件100件一天只剩幾十萬被詐騙那我會跟你鼓勵但如果說一天還是有兩億多被詐騙一天還是一個月還是有一萬多件的時候你要我跟你講是說現在我們成效好棒抱歉我做不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13371.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13380.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為一個月一萬多件代表一個一萬多個破碎的家庭兩億多一天我們去年被詐騙金額多少2025年 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13382.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13408.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
本席幫你算了將近900億891億全年2025年一整年我們台灣被騙了891億而這是打在儀表板上的數字還有多少沒報案的不知道還有多少花小錢被炸小錢想說算了我買一個教訓的不知道但光打炸儀表板上面的數字就891億 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13409.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13435.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
所以本席是要提出來我一個誠摯的建議跟呼籲好好做事而且看那個數字去分析了解到底案情在哪邊還有哪一些新型態的詐騙最後本席提醒一下因為社群媒體平台最近也有在有一個詐騙是很老手法可是還是有很多人就是他故意說用送什麼東西我家有多的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13435.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13458.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那個咖啡店的新的城市杯好多我要免費贈送我有 是 很多在推跟IG我們的注意事有什麼那個什麼吊牌好多我要贈送甚至還利用我們台灣人的愛心說我台灣的這個行李牌很漂亮要贈送結果人家真的跟他聯繫之後原來他是一個詐騙後面的手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13459.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13473.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
也許不是全部都是但是在翠上面在IG上面有很多這樣的一個手法而網路的討論也很多我們繼續再搜報再麻煩你真的謹記一點作為好不好謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝洪委員接下來徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13484.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13508.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那麼今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者也請相關機關盡速送交給個別委員以及本會委員翁曉琳徐欣盈有提書面質詢就列入記錄並刊登公報那也請相關機關已書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13511.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13521.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
本次會議就進行到此討論事項 所列的個案 報告及詢答都完畢了我們就決議定期再繼續審查現在散會 謝謝大家 |