| IVOD_ID |
17193 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17193 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
26 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T08:31:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T12:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:46:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2df698f77e6c3706a63029e1f945e4c9520a219bd209750d2de39e10ad82ccfcef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力，對於戰時高消耗情境下，彈藥籌獲之應變作為與規劃」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:13 - 12:18:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員8人已足法定人數好我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第25次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國115年1月8日星期四上午9時至11時54分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1832.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1857.897 |
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地点 红楼301会议室出席委员陈永康等11人列席委员黄国昌等8人列席人员国防部部长顾立雄及所属人员外交部政务次长陈明琦及所属人员国家安全局副局长简华庆海洋委员会海巡署副署长谢庆青主席王昭吉委员定语报告是详议宣读上次会议意思录决定确定二 邀请国防部 外交部 国家安全局 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1858.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1886.769 |
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海洋委员会海巡署报告中共近期对台军演之军事威胁延期国际情势应对及国安应处作为并被质询国防部部长顾立雄作战级计划参谋次长是次长连志威外交部政务次长陈明奇国家安全局副局长简华庆及海洋委员会海巡署副署长谢庆庆报告委员陈永康等12人质询均由国防部部长顾立雄副参谋总长执行官黄志伟 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1887.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1913.927 |
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陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義空軍司令部參謀長李慶然外交部政務次長陳明祺及國家安全局副局長簡華慶等即席報告決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員林益君及陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭質詢為其答覆或要求提供之資訊請相關機關於二週內書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1915.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1918.473 |
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委員另指定期限則從其所定 宣讀完畢請問在場委員對於上次會議輸入有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1929.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1946.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
沒有那我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力對於暫時高消耗情境下彈藥籌貨之應變作為與規劃並被質詢宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康陳委員羅美玲羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1961.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1984.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
以及國防部顧立雄顧部長副參謀總長執行官黃志偉黃上將常務次長楊基榮楊次長全民防衛動員署廖建新廖署長總督察長是廖建忠總督察長石文龍石參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1988.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2016.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
政務辦公室 孫立芳 孫主任政治作戰局 史順文 史局長軍備局 林文祥 林局長主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長軍醫局 蔡建松 蔡局長戰略規劃司 黃文綺 黃司長資源規劃司 藍靜婷 藍司長法律事務司 吳義勝 吳司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2020.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2047.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
整合評估司苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購是趙雅萍 趙主任人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫 侯次長情報參謀次長是朱惠民 朱朱次作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威 連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔 李次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2049.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2054.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山 謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德 郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義 陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮 邱參謀長空軍司令部李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉 薛參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2079.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2104.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
憲兵指揮部文念中文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長軍事情報局李永康李執行長電訊發展室林振維林執行長國防大學李承忠李教育長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2106.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2112.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
國家中山科學研究院李士強李中將李院長本日會議邀請國防部報告國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力對於戰時高消耗情境下彈藥籌貨之應處作為與規劃並被質詢現在請國防部顧部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2143.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2166.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席 各位委員先進今天自外交國防委員會實施彈藥籌貨規劃專案報告承蒙各位委員對國防建設及戰力維持預算的支持再次表達誠摯的敬意與謝忱國軍因應敵情威脅每年檢討修訂聯合專案計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2168.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2193.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
並依作戰全程需求分別以建案籌獲新式武器彈藥及作業為止會補充戰備、訓練用彈確保國軍戰力持續增長達到防衛固守、重層嚇阻的戰略目標相關預算除了每年公務預算投資外部分也循特別預算加速執行以對應共軍日益嚴重的敵情威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2194.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2210.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
其透過本次報告讓大院委員及國人了解國軍彈藥籌或整體規劃並請各位委員指導與支持接續由後勤參謀次長室次長李鳳祥中將向各位委員提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2220.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2225.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力對於戰時高消耗情境下但要籌獲之應變作為與規劃專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2228.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2247.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
首先報告前言國軍每年依敵情威脅修訂聯合作戰計畫並由各軍種依計畫目標檢討作戰需求尋建案籌獲新式武器彈藥建構多域巨子任性防衛作戰能力並運用作業維持費補充戰訓用彈確保國軍持續精實訓練維持戰力不墜援救國軍彈藥籌獲情形及後續規劃提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2256.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2272.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
新式武器裝備的籌貨國軍每年依照建軍整備的需求修訂聯合戰力規劃完善中長城的計畫作為並就近期目標核定五年兵力整建計畫確認執行案項以推動新式武器裝備籌貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2274.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2279.069 |
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相關建案均同步籌貨戰備及訓練彈藥確保貨裝後滿足戰備需求並預留作業的期程持續以作業維持費分年補充訓練用彈國軍彈藥籌貨管道國軍依獲得的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2292.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2314.023 |
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國內外產製能量獲得其成等因素綜合檢討以達到滿足戰訓需求優先國內產製維持國防自主能量為目標同類彈藥以軍備局中科院為之為主輔以軍購商購手段多元管道並行方式辦理強化整體供應鏈體系國軍彈藥籌貨的現況區分為建案獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2321.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2339.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
以及作業維持費籌補在建案獲得方面配合愛國者三型飛彈等執行中建案國軍將持續接收各式新式的彈藥並同步完成庫儲、陣地設施整建人員訓練等配套措施完善整體後勤支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2340.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2363.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
115年起配合年度預算及特別預算編列持續籌獲M腰動鉤A拐自走炮等新式裝備持續強化精準火炮遠程精準打擊防空及反彈道反裝甲及無人載具等關鍵戰力適應未來作戰型態建構不對稱戰力相關帶要需求均已同步納入籌補規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2366.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2381.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
作業維持費籌補的部分為強化訓練成效國軍持續落實實戰化訓練提高實彈射擊的訓練評次以及數量本部以一年度訓練需求完成分年的籌補規劃結合彈藥產製年份同步計劃性的推耗庫儲彈藥確保庫儲彈藥品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2388.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2400.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因訓練需求逐年的增加除每年以國內產能最大量持續生產外109年起以結合軍商購的管道提高分年籌補量以滿足訓練的需求並維持戰備所需國內彈藥產製的能量及應變作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2408.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2427.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因國際形勢 關鍵物料採購不易 針對無人機及無人艇產製所需炸藥本部已規劃尋多元管道 建立不同的獲得來源 強化供應體系因暫時高消耗 本部已規劃增建各類型彈藥 發射藥及炸藥產線 提高國內自主產能 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2432.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2454.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
考量戰時海空運輸彈藥補給不易本部將結合新式裝備獲得持續深化友盟合作導入友盟技術爭取新式彈藥自主生產建立在地彈藥生產線同時優化國軍彈藥管理及儲存設施以強化作戰持續力對應戰時高消耗需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2456.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2473.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
結語 國軍現階段已藉由多元管道持續補充戰訓彈藥並建構產線 提高產能克制透過對外軍備交流管道洽談建構共同生產夥伴關係強化在地生產能力減少對外供應依賴提高風險因應的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2474.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2485.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
感謝大院支持與指導國軍將持續完成建軍備戰整備盡最大努力獲得足量彈藥支持作戰全程的需求以上報告請請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2490.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2505.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長有請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2522.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2537.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是 羅委員好部長早安 剛剛報告有提到就是說我們國軍的彈藥籌貨來源有國內自製也賦予對外軍購或商購等多元的管道的各種方式來取得前陣子有關於5.56公里鋼芯普通彈的外購價格被抨擊說買貴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2545.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2568.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為說20年前經費局賣給美國每一顆只有6塊錢然後我們現在對外購買我們的單價高達18.86元針對這個質疑到目前為止我都還沒有看到國防部有一個正式的說明而且我們也被質疑就是說我們明明有自己資產的能力為什麼還要跟國外來購置這個部分的話是不是請部長在這裡具體說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2574.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2592.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我先說明一下 跟美國那邊的合作主要是因為美國提供發射藥 抵火 包材 還有運輸我們只做彈頭 銅殼跟組裝的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2593.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2617.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以20年前的部分是這個六派紀念嗎有一個時間點是94年到民國100年一個是101年到109年那這兩個都是由美方來提供發射藥底火跟包裝材等原料而且還有提供運輸等等那這個部分我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2620.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2640.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
205廠他所負責的是只有彈頭銅殼跟組裝的部分那跟委員再進一步報告一下就是說我們這一次有對外來採購這一次有對外來採購因為大家都在問對外採購的這件事情我先說明一下那個價格的部分現在絕標價格應該是可以公開的所以我們現在是15.5315.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2645.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2652.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
15.53不是說原先報導所講的就是18.86那個是預算金額那是預算金額決標的金額是15.53那麼我們有本來就後置式核定的這個提供的入境的價格是16塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2661.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2689.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
一發所以我們對外採購並沒有比較貴這個要說明一下因為這個這兩件事情是不一樣一個是當時跟台美合作的這個是一件事那我們現在要自製軍備局有生產這個5.56的鋼琴彈這也是事實那另外跟委員報告一下之所以要需要是主要是這樣就是說因為我們從111年起有我們要涉及的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2690.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2693.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
涉及的訓量已經從111年起由每年的2340餘萬發已經提升到去年是5881萬發就是2340萬餘發到5881提升了2.5倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2714.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2742.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我們現在一方面軍備局要擴產整個的產線那擴產整個的產線會在今年會陸續但是這個相關有一些底火的部分或者是還有一些現在可能是一個產線只能做一種彈那現在要把它拆成四條線那這個部分也其實是放在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2743.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2761.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
特別 敵火放在特別 或者軍備局再跟您跟委員報告 這個也是上禮拜跟馬委員都報告過了我們原本光中營區的生產線會用貢線大概一年大概是兩千多萬發那現在已經請中科院來維持FN的產線有四條線 一條5.56 今年三月會全量產 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2769.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2787.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
7.62跟9公里手槍跟507槍的槍彈是放在9月那這個達到之後就跟上次馬文君委員給我們指導了4000萬發5.56那這個量都沒問題的只是說要應付暫時我們的敵火我們原本我們的救線的敵火是大概2000多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2788.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2811.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們一定要提升到4000多8000多所以我們特別預算有特別編了一條抵火的線前一陣子不是有媒播出來說我們跟大使國際有買了4億顆嗎我們是為了要建置中間我們怕各軍種的量產所以我們購進來的實際上我們還是要爭取特別預算有一條就是要做抵火的敬請委員支持以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2811.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2833.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
OK那剛剛我有聽到部長說其實後面到最後的價格我們其實一顆大概是15.53一顆不是原先所報導的18.86那是對外購買的部分對外採購我想請教今年我們應該也有自製我們的絕標的價格到底一顆是多少我們自製的部分價格是多少因為我有看到111年我們那時候的絕標價格是一顆是9.5塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2838.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2843.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
9塊半 是嗎111年的時候 我有看到一個這個應該是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2844.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2850.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
跟委員報告20年來陸軍從來沒有給我們委制過5.56鋼芯彈那這也是20年來我們因為搬遷的產能不足的調節第一次對外採購5.56鋼芯彈M855跟馬委員講的沒錯M855自製的部分我們自製的價格到底是多少我們自製的價格現在已經部搬價格就46塊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2869.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2874.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們的部分就是16塊我們現在是16塊是不是今年114年1.15開始就是16塊委員講的是普通單因為我在想普通單是9.5普通單是同胞簽我們現在統一陸軍的需求就是同胞綱讓它實戰化 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2894.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2919.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
OK 好了解所以目前為止的話這個部分因為我沒有看到任何國軍在這個價格部分有自治能力這部分有提出對外的說明因為我們搜尋了很多的資料我想第一時間如果有質疑有被質疑有疑慮我想應該要第一時間就要來說明這個部分對不對這個因為這美共戰然後還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2921.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2938.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
現在這個要有底火有發射藥有什麼所以我也是聽了有點複雜所以我們會努力來澄清一下是 因為已經事隔這麼多天了我到一直到昨天我們還在搜尋說我們有沒有一些官方的說明說實在的確實是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2938.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2956.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以才在這裡請教部長跟各個單位那再來還有一點就提到就是那個產能的這個部分因為我有看到像之前我們軍備局有評估戰時我國的作戰時日整體單兵步槍的耗彈大約是3.5億顆對不對這是你們之前有提到這個部分嗎是嗎這個部分之前我有看到你們軍備局有在評估這個部分我們軍備局不會評估作戰的需求量這個部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2970.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2978.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因為我有看到媒體有報導這個部分到底我們如果是說我國作戰時日的話我們整體單兵步槍的這個彈耗大概是多少我想這個我們現在因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2984.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3010.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就跟委員報告就是說我首先說明我們在108年的時候為了要配合高雄市的那個部分的一個經貿園區的一個開發所以我們在108年的時候是有曾經有請各軍種來回復我們各彈藥的一個需求這個時候我們就加速生產然後在100年現場之前來 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3011.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3034.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
提供了這個含糊各項的需求然後在18年如期產製滿足但是後來就是因為我們剛剛講的我們現在是訓練的實戰化的訓練跟義務役的增兵的關係還有我們14天教召的關係這幾項因素包括義務役14天教召還有這個實戰化訓練都大幅的增加所以剛剛講的那個訓練的這個部分我們就會要來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3039.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3069.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
已經每一年要發射發出成長2.5倍那另外這個是等於是已經把訓練用的打的彈已經用掉了戰備的量所以我們為了要提升整個戰備的量我們現在要雙軌並行也就是說軍備局要產製那另外也如果有必要的時候也要進行這個外購那至於我們現在評估戰時的整個的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3070.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3085.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我想可能沒有辦法我想並不是以公開在這邊整個說明因為包括我們的吸行量補給還有等等的我想這個部分我們我們可能私下可以來說明但可能不以公開的來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3087.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3111.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以以現階段來講其實我們自己本身的生產的量其實基本上還是不夠所以我們還是需要對外採購是嗎 是這樣子這是已經現階段因為我之前看到說我們明明是有自產的能力為什麼還要外購這部分可能就是我跟委員報告 按照我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3112.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3134.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
假如產線FN今年都互現了我們的新舊線暫時三班次下去產制我們一年都可以產一億發以上可是一個子彈要配一個底火我的底火是趕不上的所以我要用特別預算編一條底火的線底火的線假如增產完之後那條底火的線到達5000萬平時暫時可以到達7000多萬將近那在原來的2000多萬加下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3140.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3146.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我一年就可以生產一億發以上的敵火 以上報告OK 好 謝謝再來還有就是稍微一點時間我想再給我一點時間我有看到我們1.25兆的國防特別條例草案裡面有提到第四條第六項它有提到就是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備其實這個是不是就含了我們戰備彈藥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3164.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3169.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
囤儲的這個部分如果說這個條例一直沒有通過的話那這個部分是不是也受到一些影響這個說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3170.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3195.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
委員好 戰委司司長在這邊跟委員報告我們在這次特別預算裡面除了我們剛剛討論的小口徑彈藥之外另外一個重點事實上是大口徑的彈藥那國軍目前大口徑的彈藥以及大口徑的發射藥是需要大幅提升那在之前我們已經說明過我們要把我們的戰備庫存因應敵可能的各種狀況去做提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3195.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3204.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那這個數量雖然沒有辦法在這邊公開可是它的額度是相當的大必須要用特別預算來做一次性的採購才有辦法滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3206.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3226.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好 不管是這個1.25兆國防特別條例或是我們的這個國防預算我們真的希望在野黨一起來努力那明天呢我們又遇到這個程旭委員會在場也有程旭委員會的陳永康委員請大家一起來支持啦讓這個國防特別條例呢明天能夠順利的呢 赴委來做審訊好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3246.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3248.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
好主席有請顧部長請顧部長部長早是陳委員早是 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3259.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3277.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
剛剛聽完了部裡面的各同仁的報告當然這裡面有些是專業的因為這邊很多都在對外在直播我們外面的同仁老百姓並不見得聽得懂我們先講這個步槍彈從當年的口徑從7.62變成5.56這個二三十年前就這樣子了那個時間並沒有防彈背心 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3286.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3306.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以我們那個時代一個陸軍步兵一年才打38發到了馮世寬當部長的時候提升到100發那這就是你的彈藥的消耗在那個時代連我們的警察都是買我們國軍彈藥我不知道現在警察還有沒有買我們的彈藥還是他們自己向外採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3311.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3335.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
跟委員報告 警察假如是我們5.56同用跟7.65都是跟我們維持的也是向我們採購 以上說明因為剛剛提到了就是說現在你面對的敵方包括我們自己國軍我們都開始有防彈背心了就傳統的鉛彈頭貫穿力是不夠的因此你才有鋼心彈但在過去大家沒有提到這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3336.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3365.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那我举例美国陆战队学校在Quantico他们每个人一年的年度训诞超过500发所以未来很明显的我们的训练除了陆军的发射弹药在增加以外海空军的基本上在基地防卫的训练的弹药也在提升所以这个如果大家能够做更明确的表白表示这个钢心弹头跟以前是不一样的那这个时候外面的老百姓就比较了解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3366.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3391.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
對 我們現在就是打算就是說訓練用彈就用在射擊的時候就把它都推成掉以後我們就只生產甘辛彈是…我這邊列一個表就是根據我們國防部四年期總檢做出來的我也算是花了一番工夫把裡面都降讀了我們在下面就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3393.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3418.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
建议具体的规划江财宁讲了不只是军备局中科院商购外购建立整体的能量那要强化整体的供应链这个时候重要作战区预知后勤的补给站提升运输效能在运输强弹药的同个时间软性的问题就是我们的急救伤患尤其是在弹药库的附近了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3419.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3441.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那个急救伤患同样我们的血浆配合这个案子要增加就是统合民间的物力人力资源资源竞速作战同时我们也强化这个一位的资源那跨部会强化关键基础设施同时维持社会核心的机能跟政府运作那下张图表就是我们战死国军的维持力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3443.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3457.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
原則是維持作戰部的彈藥無虞在有限時間內確保儲存的這個安全儲存滿足部隊的需求這裡面就產生了彈藥庫本身的電力供應因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3459.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3478.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
彈藥庫的安全是很重要的它的緊急醫療這個戰傷的幫助要在附近另外通往彈藥庫的道路電網或者緊急發電機甚至機動發電機這個部分也是要能夠在配合這個案子同步強化並不是指一個儲存量 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3480.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3503.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
彈藥庫的內部很深如果沒有電了用人力是沒有搬運的所以並不是光步槍彈這個時候就涉及剛才講的大口徑的砲彈大口徑的砲彈在年度訓練過程中因為射程近所以中間有部分送藥打掉了結果你不能夠整體的彈藥就不能夠用了因為你不能發揮到最大射程 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3503.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3524.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以这个时候的送药的就像您讲的那个配合产制这个时候要强化可是呢因为平时的演训啊我们的射程都是展示型的这个1500码2000码所以都看得见爆炸点所以你送的送药的几号送药消耗的特别大而其他的送药呢留在那边 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3524.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3545.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
保存的时间又不一样了所以这个时候在未来尤其是特种火炮这个弹药储存配合训练用的因为这个时候不是光弹头了这是送药的组合不是药桶式的那大口径的是这个样子我想大家了解尤其是外岛的像240基本上你现在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3546.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3572.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
送药是不够了在这个里面就强调不只是硬体包括国军后勤补保运位的人力人力要增加因为你弹药的需求储存量增加后勤的人力相对的要增加要确保道路交通重要道路的畅通这个部分是不是在配合全案建案的时候后勤人力有成长 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3575.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3603.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
委員好 向委員報告我們後勤的人力一直持續在檢討那當然現在因應這個缺員的狀況下我們即便增加了員額可能也不一定有人但是我們現在一直在朝這個方向在努力同時您剛提到連外的道路部分以及交通運行的部分這個部分國安會現在也有重視以及跟美方的研討之後有非常多在道路交通暫時的時候如何管制以確保我的部隊調動我的後勤補給資源如何有道路使用的優先權這個部分都在檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3604.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3612.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
好 謝謝最後一張圖是強調我們的韌性就是說我們台灣之盾當然面對有挑戰與考驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3614.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3642.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那敵方現在對我們威脅最大的反而不是東風系列的戰術導彈是它現在衛士系列的火箭因為射程夠遠了那麼數量夠多了那我們在防衛作戰的時候用現有的精準武器去攔截這個耗損率太高因此在台灣之盾這個未來的規劃裡面整體運用一下就是說武力的分配我們先看一下這次培洛西來的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3643.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3667.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
这个时候打的还是各位看的这个是打了11枚东风导弹那在这一次中共演习的时候就是打火箭了北部打了17枚南部打了10枚但是我希望我们未来在演习在内部做模拟的时候想象一下如果他今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3668.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3695.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
全部是用这些远程火箭精准火箭做第一批的射击那你在台湾之盾有效的指管联合这个目标分配情况下有没有足够的弹药或是哪些地方你认为你能够承受我们比方来讲这是一个模拟的那不只是对了我们的地面的基地海空军的基地陆军的指挥所雷达站 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3696.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3720.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我們未來的儲存位置就像剛剛你講的也變成了目標了所以在這種情況下我們台灣之盾怎麼樣要做更有效的整合這下面你可以看到未來的火箭它是以量取勝它有足夠的射程這個時候如果我們不能有效分配目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3721.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3732.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
或是建立一些假目標讓他消耗我們有限的武器啊就變成效益不能發揮了所以台灣之盾本身呢在這個整體規劃裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3734.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3761.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
不只是遠程的中程的近程的到點防禦的那整體的網絡那結合整個過去講CCISR後來C5ISRT現在還有C6I都出來了但是整體來講這個網絡其實就是讓你的中心可以左右移重心可以前後調節所以去中心化不是目的是你的方法手段要有一個完整的網絡架構那這個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3765.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3784.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我們才能夠防衛所以現在的今天雖然談的是彈藥持續那不只包括火箭飛彈這個大型炮兵新武器甚至步槍子彈但是最後在這個威脅情況下這個網絡如何能夠發揮有效的效果中科院您做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3786.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3798.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這邊回覆委員在台灣之盾的設計裡面當然第一個我們是會去強化我的每一個接戰的效率讓我的每一枚彈藥都能夠達到最精準的接戰第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3799.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3821.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我們也不會讓他的火箭在發射之後他就肆無忌憚的一直發射我們一定是在他發射之初我們也會有相對應的措施來阻止他能夠有效的發射第三個就是針對每個火箭它的威脅性我們要去評斷哪些是我可承受的損失哪些是我必須一定要接戰要把它攔下來的這個在台灣之盾的設計裡面這三點都有考慮在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3822.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3837.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
里面提出一个建议就是说因为它的火箭军部署的范畴它的射程超过我们你可以摧毁反制摧毁一部分但是还有一部分是超过射程之外的这个时候未来的新来的这个海马斯或者是真诚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3837.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3854.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
看怎么运用所以这个里面又结合了情报的一个是机动目标的位置第二个是固定目标的位置这个都要把它纳入台湾之盾我们在这个议题上需要一个长时间共同努力也希望确实落实这个专案的效益谢谢各位谢谢接下来请黄仁委员上台咨询 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3872.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3882.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝主席有請我們顧部長還有軍備局跟中科院請顧部長軍備局和中科院就備軍台謝謝是 黃委員好部長好我們針對這個報導裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3891.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3905.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
就是我們我國明明可以自產的一個彈藥卻要對外採購並這個延伸了非常不少的一個爭議國人很多關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3906.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3919.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那我想請教國防部在15億元的子彈的標案我們早能自製外購而惹疫所以我就想請問黎欽這個問題經費局在 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3923.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3945.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
兩棟武廠是我國清兵器及各式槍支彈藥的生產的重鎮但是為了配合高雄市政府亞洲新灣區計畫把原先位於前鎮區的兩棟武廠搬至到大宿區林園營區大宿北營區及光復營區並且規劃建蓋彈藥生產線 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3950.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3974.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
但是國防部在112年的報告205廠在完成搬遷之後那預計在去年的114年的12月以前就能夠恢復那甚至提升產能但是為了工程的這個延宕到現在的子彈的生產性還無法的恢復205廠什麼時候才能恢復子彈生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3978.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4000.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟委員報告我們原來在光中營區的我們是106年我們就開始做了一個的搬遷原本是只有一條生產線貢獻我們把這個舊的生產線會搬到我們新的一個大宿營區同時偽中科院做FN四種彈藥都把它分開就是5.56 7.62 90公里手槍跟50機槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4004.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4024.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
納根委員報告5.56的這條生產線在今年的3月份會正式的量產現在在做小批量的測試7.62九公里手槍跟五年計算是9元那你們整體的規劃裡面本來就去年的114年的12月以前嘛而且你們所有的之前的報告都非常的完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4025.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4043.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那今天你們理由在哪裡今天子彈的生產線都出了問題了你們現在在覆蓋了所有一切的問題又把說因為怎麼樣因為怎麼樣那你們之前的計畫說都已經報告的非常好啊對不對理由都是你們講的國人沒有辦法交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4044.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4072.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
大家都會對你們產生質疑所以這個不是你們要講的嘛今天為什麼是114年的時候本來你們12月底以前就要全部那誰歸咎是你們在歸咎還是歸咎了市政府市政府代差代理而且你們無賞無賞撥用給他們使用那應該市政府高雄市政府要負責啊你們為什麼不追究這個高雄市政府然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4075.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4091.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
跟委員說明這塊土地當時是有長波用給高市府代菜代件是由高雄市政府那既然未完工未完成那是不是你們要歸咎高雄市政府而不是你們來承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4093.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4109.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
跟委員說明我們跟高市府的新工處我們都是每月甚至我們每兩週都有召開一次的會議那是建議之前的疫情然後的工期然後所以真的是工進有稍微一點的延誤後面都把它趕上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4111.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4126.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
本來就是我們本來就可以自產自銷而且還要外銷今天我們還要跟人家買子彈我們明明205廠的生產線具有專業而且它的生產絕對是足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4129.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4139.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
而且甚至可以外銷現在就是因為我們為了配合高雄市政府的這個亞洲新灣區然後他們由他們負責代差代件那我們無損不用給他們使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4145.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4163.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
然後簽件給他們在那個地方發展結果今天的責任歸屬你們不但沒有跟高雄市政府來討論到底責任歸屬是你們還是高雄市政府你們要承擔還是高雄市政府我們現在的釐清就是這個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4165.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4189.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那你要告訴給國人嘛到底是你們要負責還是高雄市政府你們既然都無償撥用給他們代菜代件那就是由他們來負責嘛是不是你回答我這個問題就好了安委員報告這一塊土地是有償撥用預算是給我們可是工程是由高雄市政府代菜代件這個相對的我們兩方都有責任來共同承擔好你現在的問題就出來了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4192.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4216.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
對不對高雄不能夠推卸責任你們應該就要從這個角度裡面去追究該付的承擔金貝奇你們自己本身你所承擔的是你們之前規劃 延宕 延誤你們本來就有責任來對外跟國人交代那另外一次我想請問一下中科院 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4222.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4235.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
205廠的彈藥新建的產線當初是唯有中科院辦理對不對是好請問中科院長新建產線新建生產線的部分你們是否一約辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4239.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4255.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
有沒有意願辦理所有的產線我們都是依照跟軍備局的合約來辦理但是因為剛剛講的土建工程的延宕所以我們的相關裝備和產線沒有辦法依照原本合約的時間來復現我根據了解關於新建產線的各項這個設備的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4260.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4287.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
中科院簽約的時間大約在108年到114年間所有設備也都已經購入你們都已經購入照道理講你們沒有責任可是責任在高雄市政府你們一樣你們一樣好好的跟高雄市政府來追討追問責任的歸屬你們不要完全去承擔這樣的責任可以嗎收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4290.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4318.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
跟委員報告 我想第一個我們剛剛就被局長已經說明了在今年都會來逐步恢復產能是第一點 第二點有關這個四五大家再見的部分呢他的這個是不是因為疫情的這個影響我們還要再跟高雄市政府我想這邊還要來進行相關的了解我想這個部分我們都一定會把它理清楚部長不管是COVID-19 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4320.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4342.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我們在金貝啟在這個過程裡面的進程進度也應該要跟國人來做一個說明而不是發生之後我們再來亡羊補牢解釋說因為什麼樣因為什麼樣應該不是我們國防部的態度也不是金貝啟的態度你們要有責任是對國人交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4342.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4365.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們就應該坦蕩蕩的把問題講出來而不是問題出來子彈的問題生產線為什麼會委外的因素產生了國人非常不瞭解的就是因為這個原因啊我們本來就可以自製生產的而且還是外銷的都可以所以這個就是我們要對外要理清清楚好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4368.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4392.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
剛剛有跟幾位委員報告的就是說因為我們當時估算的這個彈藥的這個訓練因為我們現在因為義務役的關係還有教召訓練的增加然後還有這些實戰化的訓練所以整個的訓練的用量已經增加2.5倍所以這個部分當然也是我們現在要緊急籌購的一個原因所以我們現在增兵不力 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4392.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4409.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
已經三年多了我想說你們趕快把增兵的這一些能夠讓這些有對我們國軍有信心讓增加我們的兵力那另外就是我想請問一下部長你的檢法的思維上次我們特別有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4410.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4425.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
習小新委員跟我已經關心國軍文件新的保防規範因為我們都收到來自一部隊的龐大的抱怨跟不滿緊接到這個國會國軍的士氣非常的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4426.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4452.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
而且也造成了負面的這樣的一個效益所以我想請問一下如果部長在上次說可以調整可以檢討你們我相信你們部會裡面也都有在討論那討論的如何調整找到了一個保房和作業的效益的平衡點嗎請問一下部長你來回答一下第一點當然就是您看到的就是說我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4454.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4479.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
匯整了各方的意見之後就這個屬於對不特定人經過審認沒有涉及國家機密或者是公務機密的部分那屬於公開的資訊的話我們就在夜鎖來標示但是我要跟委員報告就是說我們整個資料治理這個整個在數位化的作業環境之下所有有關這些文書的儲存 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4482.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4503.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
傳遞跟運用在這一個不同的分級制度之下它絕對是有必要的因為相關什麼樣子的人能夠看到什麼樣子的一個密等的資料還有在不同的網域之間能夠有什麼樣子的一個資料輸入我想這個都是我們資料治理跟整個精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4505.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4514.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
標示的一個最基本的背後的一個原因那如果我們不這樣做我們沒有辦法跟美方對接我們也沒有辦法共享資訊主席 再給我一點幾分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4517.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4537.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
講到美方 我們上週你說明的這個新措施是一個比照美方的規範 以利雙方的交流但是本身認為 即使美金的規範 值得參考我們兩國國軍各有各自的一個風格 外國的月亮不見得是圓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4538.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4561.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以國軍也不一定要照單前收應該適度的調整以便更好的融入國軍那所以希望能夠部長你能發揮你的檢法的思維然後真正的簡化這個文書減少無效的作業那另外就是我們在這一次的F16的新興飛官的搜救的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4562.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4591.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們海巡署的弟兄有很多的抱怨那對於搜救的過程裡面有很多的有三個質疑我想請教這三個質疑裡面那搜救的方向錯誤認為海軍未考量黑潮的影響只是在失事的時候點以南海域搜尋措施搜救的關鍵第一個你們只派了100噸級的到黑海去搜救而不派 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4593.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4608.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
一千噸級的那是什麼一回事那另外是還有很重要的就是通聯通聯是第一個發生之後完顯的所有的掃描跟通聯是非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4609.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4628.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那是不是缺乏了直接的通聯那只能使用國際通用海事異險頻道CH16作為指揮的指管頻道佔用國際海事的異險資源以上這些問題你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4629.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4642.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我首先先簡單回應一下就是說剛剛您講那個精準機密的核四部我想我們現在大家都在調適的過程當中我們會陸續收整這個包括官兵還有這各界的一個意見我們會來持續來檢討那我們也會以開放的態度來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4648.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4667.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那至於有關這個提到我想海軍來先做個回答是 委員好 首先跟委員報告我們以本這個救人第一所以我們在事件不幸事件發生之後我們所有的兵力是直接到現場到現場之後我們就會按照小頓數的就是在沿岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4668.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4694.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
大頓宿重大陷阱 但是現在不是嘛因為 報告長他資訊是有問題離岸較近的海域應該是100噸級的離岸以外靠近黑草的因為他的風浪太大應該是1000噸級的來去做搜救啊所以你們海巡官兵裡面的抱怨就在這裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4695.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4721.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
報委員 我們的確是禁岸就是35噸跟100噸然後比較遠的都是派遣中大型所以這一次你們只派的到黑草那一帶是幾百噸的都是1000噸跟海軍3000噸但問題是不是100噸 1000噸沒有嘛沒有 沿岸沒有所以你們在搜集的過程應該就第一個在外海已經出了多少次的在花東這一帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4722.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4750.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
一旦發生應該你們第一個概念就是第一我們先派一千噸幾的先派出去近海的一百噸來作為全面性的做一個搜救跟委員報告就是說確實是我們將小型的艦艇在近岸中大型的在外海共同事務這個報導說把這個近岸的部分派到外面去這一件事情跟事實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4750.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4762.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你們要調查清楚這個是很多你們自己本身的海巡署回報的這樣的一個抱怨我想說大家做一個參考也做一個檢討好不好是好 謝謝主席 以上謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4779.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4782.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
好 謝謝趙偉有請顧部長好 請顧部長部長早部長因應這個對岸敵情威脅不斷的提升那也針對我們彈藥籌貨的相關規劃尤其是在這個戰爭的時候高消耗的這種情境之下確實是當前我們這個備戰工作一個重要議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4808.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4832.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那從國防部今天所報告的內容來看在執行面上我們是目前是以國內自治為主那外購為輔的原則考量到這個國際情勢在現實上的一個困難那除了要結合多元管道強化供應鏈的韌性以外也因應這個新式武器同步納入但要庫儲存的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4833.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4857.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
設施優化相關規劃那顯然國防部目前對於如何達成這個彈藥供應不中斷的一個目標也已經有相對應的一個策略但是在這個執行的方式上我想就能夠公開的部分來和部長您做一個討論首先在報告當中我們國防部將結合新式的這個裝備獲得導入有盟的技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4859.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4886.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
來爭取新式彈藥自主的一個生產來建立我們在地彈藥的一個生產線這對於我們彈藥的持續供應來說是很重要的一個目標但實際上要做到恐怕不是那麼的容易啦那我想先請教部長就是我們目前向友盟爭取在地共同生產的這個彈藥主要的困難點在哪裡那有沒有辦法來克服請部長簡要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4888.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4914.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我想我們有以這個藥物榴彈炮為例的話最主要就是糖鴨的糖鴨的不同所以我們現在已經跟美方在開始這方面的合作是各位委員報告我們的國產的糖鴨跟美方的不一樣就是說像以藥物榴炮而言我們的糖鴨我們的炮是美軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4915.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4941.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
在早期已經計算給我們的砲管比較短那美軍現用的現役的砲管比較長所以它的彈壓比較大那為了我們的防衛的韌性我們台美雙方已經初步的以255流砲因為烏克蘭的戰爭實戰驗證了255流是消耗最快的所以我們跟美方已經初步著手從共同生產255流砲開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4943.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4964.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
然後資訊相當的機敏 不便說明成功之後再推展到其他的武器彈藥 以上說明所以156炮這個目前在台灣是可以生產就對了現在在談了正在初步洽談好 那因應這個戰訓需求的逐年增加我們這個彈藥庫存的這個量能也應該一併要提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4965.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4986.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那在這次這個報告當中同樣有提到要優化我們國軍彈藥管理及儲存的設施以強化作戰的一個持續力那針對這個部分我想了解的是我們在現有的人員之下怎麼樣來提升我們庫儲的這個設施的量能和彈藥管理的相關方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4987.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5012.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
包委員我們針對敵情威脅的抖聲我們目前針對彈藥是配合我們整個作戰的部署的方式來進行全面性的提升那各位可以看到我們在先前的國土安全任性裡面已經編了一部分的錢去整修我們的彈藥庫那其他的部分我們也會依據我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5013.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5027.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這個分區配置混合囤積加大重生進入地下這個原則部署在每一個地方然後依照他的需求去建各種不同的形式的彈藥庫來滿足未來我們整個防衛作戰的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5031.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5047.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
另外向委員報告我們在整體的後勤的部分未來我們也會採機動化運輸的方式在即將遭受攻擊前我們會把原有的庫儲彈藥做前推預制同時採用機動化的方式在平時的話我們會用我們建制車輛暫時的話會結合民間的力量來共同執行這個機動化運輸後勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5051.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5072.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好那談到這個運輸我想先請教一下在這個戰爭的時候是這個彈藥是高消耗的一個情境那為確保我們迅速而且能夠快速的把這個彈藥運輸到這個需要的位置那我們在推進的過程裡面我想請教是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5074.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5088.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這些彈藥離開庫房在運送的過程當中我們要如何來確保他的安全性這第一點那我們目前負責彈藥運輸的這些運具是否足以應對這個敵情的一個威脅報告第一個我們在彈藥運輸的時候絕對是檢派專業的人員隨車來押運第二個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5096.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5119.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
任何的彈藥執行運輸之前我們會有機動路線的選定應變計畫的測定以及細故檢查安全措施等等同時如果必要的話我們必須要申請路權至於第二個問題剛剛委員提到的建制數據現在是足夠的當然是因應平時的狀態下那在暫時的部分如同我前面所說的我們會結合民間的力量以及動員的車輛共同來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5120.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5134.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 我覺得這個回答應該是比較制式的啦因為我們如果在戰爭的時候我相信我們的後勤車輛一定是被這個敵方所鎖定的而且有可能是針對性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5136.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5158.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們在許多的這個演習過程裡面也都驗證在這個暫時我們這個運輔的車輛的這種安全性應該是要相對應的提高啦這部分我是提醒啦就我們後續在這個相關的這個演習當中可能這個部分要更加的這個委員提到可能就有兩部分一個部分是屬於暫時的交通管制這個會在暫時成立這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5160.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5180.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
聯合運輸指揮處然後第二個是屬於數據的部分那這個部分牽扯到全社會防衛任性也就是說我們現在跟各部會相關所掌握的這些器具跟能力我們要做相關的一個管制那這個部分是軍民到時候就要一起合作的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5181.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5206.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那這部分也是考驗到我們後勤的這個暫時應變的能力這個部分再請我們國防部再留意那另外剛剛也有提到就是彈藥庫的整建整建的部分那我們看到一個非常重要的一個軍事設施的一個投資案是為了要反制共軍在紅色海灘進行登陸作戰的一個威脅預計在這個我們編列的98億餘元要就近 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5209.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5238.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
新建這個彈藥庫和彈藥的整修所讓海岸守備的這個部隊能夠就近整補彈藥有持久這個作戰的一個能力那我想請問部長就有關這項這個計畫建置的內容跟期程以及我們在紅色海灘就近新建彈藥庫的必要性為何並且這是一個跨年度的一個計畫如果今年預算未能順利通過的話是否有這個相對應的一個替代做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5239.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5266.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
跟委員報告 國軍沒有規劃在紅色海灘興建彈庫相關的設施都在安全的規劃下是在現有的營區內整建沒有在紅色海灘要興建彈藥庫的規劃那就是現有的我們彈藥庫要做提升就對了我們像以這個韌性預算的話我們就以既有的彈藥庫整建作為優先考量興建彈藥庫的部分也會是在既有的營區之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5267.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5296.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那我們這98億就是要這個經費是用用途就是用在這個現有彈藥庫還是還有我們現有的營區去做98億是指那兩年的那個韌性的預算那都是在整建整建那另外由於這個中小型的這個無人機在戰場上的運用有這個消耗量比較大有的可能拿來做一次性的攻擊就是有去無返那 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5298.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5306.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個迭代更新又相當的一個快速包括先前美軍就已經將部分的這個無人機歸類為消耗品而我們這個陸軍應該也已經將無人機轉為這個耗材或是彈藥而不是裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5313.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5328.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這可能讓我們採購的流程更加的加速也展現我們想要發展無人機的一個決心但是我想和部長您討論的是國防部先前所採購的這些無人機陸續已經交裝了未來也會持續大量購置新的無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5329.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5347.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那我們無人機庫存這個設施整建的速度是否能夠跟得上膠裝的一個期程那和我們傳統彈藥庫相比的話尤其無人機裝有這個晶片和電池我們如何來強化對無人機的一個庫房的一個保護和管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5348.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5368.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我想首先說明我們現在已經將這個123類型的無人機已經列為消耗品是那攻擊型的這個無人機也把它列為彈藥那來處理它那至於這個無人機庫儲的一個設施的一個準備因為看每個無人機的一個情況不同因為從 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5369.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5379.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
FPV一直到這個自殺式的頭彈式的所以我想整個庫儲我們會按照無人機的這個種類狀況我們來做一個適切的一個庫儲的設施的整備這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5387.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5403.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好那如果以這個俄烏戰爭的經驗來觀察我們小型的無人機穿透率大概只有10%那消耗量相當的精準因此能否快速的生產或是籌貨到大量的無人機這對戰爭的時候是相當的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5403.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5425.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那這部分我想再請教部長就是倘若在這個戰爭的時候大量消耗無人機我們如何快速的籌貨在國內這個軍民共同生產平戰轉換的這個機制上有沒有已經建立這個機制是 我們在這次特別預算裡面就會有一個無人機的籌購的一個計畫那我們主要 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5426.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5451.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
當然我們講的是現在軍備局公布的四類的供給型還有一類的健身型這個部分都是以在地生產然後我們讓它具有一個可擴充性所以會模組化的設計那麼讓它透過跟這個自己研發也好或跟國外合作也好然後能夠迭代創新那所以我們會讓這個國內的這個自主的產能藉由我們光部 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5452.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5463.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
以及行政院也正在做一個統籌型的無人機計畫我想目的都是在提升我們國防在自主的能量強化我們暫時的韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5466.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5485.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好那從這幾個議題我們從這個爭取有盟在地共同的一個生產到這個興建我們彈藥庫房的必要性再到無人機作為這個彈藥使用我想都圍繞在我們這個戰備的一個提升和戰力的一個持續性那這部分也請我們國防部持續 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5486.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5505.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個推進相關的整備工作必要時要向我們委員會來做這個預算的說明的急迫性和必要性以消弭我們許多這個委員可能對於這個預算使用的一個疑慮是好以上謝謝部長謝謝委員指教謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5516.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5520.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好下面我們請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長好有請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5537.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5551.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
部長好部長我們今天特別會去釘釘這個議題希望國防部可以更清楚的說明很重要的一個因素是我們在近期看到從子彈到火藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5553.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5568.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
它發生的問題其實它兩個事件我們看到它有一個共同的起點它都不是我們自己不能生產我們本身都可以做而且過去不管品質 規格還有價錢其實都算是不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5570.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5574.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
可是我們現在卻一再的決定一定要外購我們想要知道主要的原因是什麼因為從早就是一開始到現在我們聽到很多的回答其實是非常矛盾的就剛剛有提到說我們這個產線在新廠到底什麼時候開始我們到底有多少產量這個部分我想在去年就已經對外 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5599.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5627.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
完成可是後來又到12月說12月其實就可以開始量產那現在又好像要延到今年的3月所以到底什麼時候新廠可以開始跟委員報告我們的委協書就是如同委員所說明的我們的跟中科院的委協書是到114年的12月31號那目前我們的機具也跟委員之前說明了都已經到新的一個營區不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5628.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5632.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們不是要知道這個詳細的那個因為他已經延宕了剛剛你們拿疫情來當理由說因為高雄市政府是因為疫情的關係所以我們的土建延後如果要用這個理由那他也已經延過了因為本來應該是前年要完成的我們已經延了一年那現在在去年又好像沒有辦法完成現在又要延到今年三月三月確定可以嗎確定可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5656.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5664.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
確定可以所有的四線都可以所有的都可以生產5.56我還是上禮拜跟委員報告5.56是3月其他三條線是9月 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5666.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5672.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
9月所以你又要再往後延一年沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有今年今年3月就是5.56沒有你這個本來應該前年要完成去後來你們對外宣稱說去年12月就可以開始量產那現在又要延到3月跟9月等於你又要延了將近一年的時間是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5688.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5696.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
跟委員報告我們跟中坑的委協書是到去年12月31號了委協書我都有看了確實我們假如是以委協書來量產我們現在要知道的是我們一言再言的原因是什麼因為這樣沒有影響戰力嗎當你急著編很大筆的預算要外購的時候我們要先很清楚的知道我們自己內部到底發生什麼問題因為為什麼我說你們的說法是很矛盾的剛剛有提到我們過去的舊廠 舊縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5717.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5728.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
只有兩條生產線它不但可以符合我們自己的訓量符合我們自己國內的需求而且還可以賣給其他國家還可以賣給民間 賣給美國在作戰的時候使用可是現在我們增加了四條線新廠有四條新的生產線還再加上兩條舊的生產線你們號稱可以生產一億發的子彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5745.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5773.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
可是現在還需要外購原因是什麼委員報告就我跟俊輝覺得了解是這樣就是說現況上來講即使不論有沒有搬遷他的5.56公里的這個彈藥跟7.6公里彈藥是共線那所以他生產的時候如果是生產5.56他就不能夠生產7.6你們以前不知道嗎但是我講的是現況不是以前不知道那我們現在講的是說我們現在新的線拆線 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5774.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5793.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
接下來中科院的部分那中科院是不是要說明一下他4條新的線4條新的線那他都可以同時間產製那另外有在跟委員報告就是那個底火的部分底火的部分現在也要透過特別預算來增加那一個底火的產線因為底火才能夠支撐整個彈藥的一個生產每顆彈藥就要一顆底火 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5797.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5815.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那所以底火的部分透過特別預算會增加到原來現況是2400萬那現在底火的部分是4800加起來就快9000多那如果能夠才暫時的3%的話那就會再增加大概現況跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5817.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5819.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
跟現在要加強的狀況大概是如此我們用很簡單的方法來算我們剛剛有提到舊線就是兩條新線再增加四條我們總共有六條生產線你說我們現在一億發的這個子彈敵火會不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5833.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5837.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
你明明知道你要生產的是一億發的子彈你的底火沒有辦法生產你當初是怎麼設計這四條生產線你現在如果我們沒有特別預算那你的底火怎麼辦你當初這個是怎麼設計出來的這是我說的第一個矛盾的地方第二個為什麼是一定要用特別預算你在過去新廠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5856.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5860.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
在建制的時候我們所有的產線在建制的時候你們用的都是生殖基金為什麼你現在如果有真的需要照理說是不應該現在還要增加這個部分這個根本就是強詞奪理你在設計的時候生產一億發的時候你沒有辦法設計生產低火那你要怎麼生產一億發的子彈如果他3月開始他9月開始你沒有這個低火的生產線一億發這個怎麼生產出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5885.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5892.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這是第一個矛盾的地方第二個就是你不是用特別預算今天我們聽到現在好像大家都在幫特別預算在爭取而已而不是解決我們現在目前我們產生的疑問剛剛不管小口徑也好或者大口徑的單要也好你們都說一定要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5905.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5909.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個特別預算才可以生產我們過去中科院做那麼多的飛彈你們號稱可以在我們每年的機密預算裡面我們每年不管熊系列不管天宮系列不管其他的彈藥我們都沒有發生過這樣的問題今天突然需要特別預算的時候大家都需要從那裡出來了所以你過去是怎麼做的我們現在要討論的就是剛剛我們提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5930.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5932.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所有的彈藥你今天兩條舊線30年前的生產線你都可以自我滿足然後還可以出售甚至可以提供他國的戰爭使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5946.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5951.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個一直用到2020年都是6塊錢那個你們說的那個錢都是話術啦我們賣給他6塊美國就是提供低火跟跟那個發射藥沒有錯可是其他的全部都是我們的生殖中我們自己的205廠生產的所以我們不只是代工你明明就可以做一整顆完整的可以賣給人家我現在要提到的是這個部分第二個就是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5974.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5982.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
剛剛你們也提到那個價格的部分114年我們國防部綠定的普通彈跟鋼芯彈的價格是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5985.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6004.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
114年我直接講好了114年普通彈你們訂的是9塊錢就是國防部如果要跟軍備局買普通彈是9塊錢鋼芯彈是14塊你們訂的是14塊包括你們在今年的預算就是今年的預算報告員我們沒有訂14塊這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6010.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6012.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你們綠定的價格14塊不然你的你知道你115年的那個公務預算今年我們算還沒有審可是你的公務預算裡面編列8.9億要向生殖中心購置這個6200萬發 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6027.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6029.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們把它換算下來就是14塊出頭就是14塊所以你包括今年編的要買的其實也是14塊可是你在招標上公告上面它一顆的價格高達18.8塊雖然絕標價是15塊多所以我剛剛聽你們說綠定的價格變成16塊我覺得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6049.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6060.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
得標以後才滾動式的修正因為你們自己看你們的公務預算不要搖頭也不要在這裡說你們沒有清楚的再去查你們114年綠定的這個一定有一定有正式的文書資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6064.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6080.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
容我簡單跟您報告一下一百五十五年公務預算所編列的十四塊一他是十四塊一的時候他那個是最先入軍為了這個這個鋼心彈的需求做的一個訪商尋商的一個價格那實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6082.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6086.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個軍備局他對外招標的時候是在去年年底那這個是一個物價上面的差異性所以最終他是以他15.53來得標去查一下美國的網站同規格的子彈比國防部採購的價格低了近三成自己先去查清楚再來回答這些相關的問題我們目前所有看到的而且我想請教部長我們看一下我們這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6109.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6117.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
要採購的都是我們這一次裡面很重要一個有5.56步槍彈的這個型號我想請教部長這四個型號你大概知道這是什麼彈嗎上面有這個應該依序是這個左邊是普通彈然後這個是鋼型彈和M855A1的這個就是一個加強版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6134.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6157.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
M85A1是哪一個M85A1是最右邊那第三個勒五星彈好我們這次要買的是什麼彈我們這次要買第二個綠色彈頭的M85鋼芯彈嘛我們自己能不能做新產線可以嘛所以我們自己能做為什麼你們還沒做的時候你要外購 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6159.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6162.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
而且幾乎全部外購為什麼這剛剛已經說明了剛剛已經跟委員報告為什麼因為最主要就是因為這個一年期一物一的徵集還有叫一物一的徵集我們所有的訓場我們所有的靶場我們所有的時間我們所有的教官我們能夠安排的可以打靶的時間有多少那個都可以算得出來是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6179.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6183.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
你突然說今年要增加這麼多的一個彈量我剛剛一直提到我們現在有兩個舊線再加上四條新的線它可以生產普通彈也可以生產鋼芯彈就是我們這一次外購的M855鋼芯彈我們買的確定不是M855A1嘛對不對M855 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6200.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6204.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
M855你們再仔細去查一下人家的價格因為現在美國全部都要把它賣掉美國現在用的M855A1鋼心彈因為它M855已經不用了第一不環保第二其實它的殺傷力並沒有想像這麼好它對人員的那個可能供給也沒有像我們說的這麼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6222.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6250.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以我现在要请教的是为什么我们一定要外购我们为什么生产会不足我刚刚已经讲过相关的理由你一年可以生产一亿发那你现在有很多还是需要外购今天的专报书面资料和跟委员的说明已经报告过从111年到114年我们整个实战化的训练和整个教召和义务役还有我们我刚刚也说过了我刚刚也说过了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6252.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6255.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們現在我們的庫存有滿山滿谷的855鋼心彈那時候美國軍援的子彈就是855鋼心彈855鋼心彈我們在訓練的時候為什麼不會用很重要的就是它對於我們的槍管會磨損它很多很多的靶場現在根本禁止使用這是第一點我必須向您報告我們現行部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6279.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6281.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
經常性射擊的我們在鋼心彈的射擊的彈數裡面佔了83%一直以來我們現行的訓練裡面沒有 現行訓練裡面從過去到現在一直是使用普通彈跟鋼心彈而且鋼心彈的比例佔了87%鋼心彈是什麼鋼心彈是用在什麼地方練習 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6301.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6319.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
就是一般的靶場我們現行的靶場就是在使用並沒有為了這一次才特別去買這個為什麼過去都不用你從以前就87%都是把它講清楚一直都有在使用它毛漲一直都有在使用它是在哪些時候有使用我們過去沒有自己做對不對從民國93年以後我們過去也沒有買我們就沒有在採購都是從庫儲推好那它從哪裡來你庫儲是戰備庫儲說採購的來推好戰備庫儲是哪裡來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6331.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6332.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
在93年以前採購的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6333.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6336.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
93年以前採購的數量可以用到我們110幾年所以我們的庫儲戰備其實非常多是嗎報告這個詳細的數量我們現在還有我們現在要釐清的就是這個已經很多包括美國其實他都不用了可是這個85我們的我必須容我跟您報告M85A1也是我們積極爭取的一個彈藥但是目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6361.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6378.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
是沒有管制出口 失色管制出口所以我們目前在這個鋼芯彈裡面我們最高的就是能用到M85鋼芯彈用在什麼地方的練習設計用在什麼地方 參謀長不要只說你都有把比較具體的隨便舉例說出來現行的部隊 舉例幾個任何駐地基地和三軍聯訓我們所停領的彈藥現行就是普通彈 鋼芯彈這兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6390.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6396.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
按照現在的資料統計近三年5.56公里的步槍彈每年平均訊號5367萬餘發普通彈是860萬餘發鋼心彈就4506萬發就是剛剛參謀長講的佔到83% |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6408.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6417.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
過去的來源是什麼因為部長如果我們每年你現在從93年開始一直到現在每年有4000多萬發你用的都是鋼心彈可是我們卻從來沒有採購過我們也從來沒有做過原來111年的時候至少現在資料顯示111年的時候還只有2340萬發嘛萬餘發嘛所以它這個訓量就一直增加嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6440.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6446.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
2340萬餘發我現在要說的 如果妳再往前推我想我們可以再把資料找來妳要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6448.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6466.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
委員好 我是彈藥處處長跟委員做個說明我們之前在100年左右我們國軍的這個子彈至少有大概五六億左右那後續接著因為裁軍的因為一些關係我們這子彈是超量的時間的關係我只要你們具體的我簡單的講第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6469.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6478.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們鋼芯彈過去舊線從來沒有自己生產過對不對我們從90年之後沒有再買但是我們以前大概有三四億發三四億發用了十幾年你的意思好這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6484.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6501.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
90年以前有買過然後美國也有軍援我們現在在訓練的時候大家都是在什麼地方使用我很可能有一些誤解我們這些鋼心彈有些已經都超過差不多30年那你再不把它做社訓推號的話它接下來就要報廢所以我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6503.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6507.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
10年前大概都是以一成左右來做這個推號沒關係 我們用邏輯來講嘛你今天說那個有的都已經超過30年所以那個不能用可是你這幾年全部都沒有突然在今年才開始有而且你的價格非常高而且同時跟我們的火藥同時一起對外採購我們要強調的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6528.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6532.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
第一這個是我們的新產線是可以自己生產的你今天如果你的訓量要增加我們自己的產線也可以生產這個鋼芯彈這是第一個它不是只能生產普通彈它只是彈頭轉換而已所以我們的新產線是可以生產鋼芯彈如果我們真的有這樣的需求的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6550.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6556.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
第二個我們所有的武器裝備我們其實是更老舊的為什麼大家不用鋼心彈剛剛我們提到一個很重要的因素它會對我們的槍管造成磨損這個855並不會對槍管造成過度的磨耗因為它本身的糖壓跟它跟您所說的那個A1是不一樣你說你現在的回答跟大家的認知不一樣你去從因為我們現時使用的就是855鋼心彈沒關係你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6577.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6584.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那你855鋼型彈已經用很多嘛我現在要的 確切的這樣的資料參謀長請你 你是陸軍參謀長855跟855A1那855A1比那個優秀的地方在哪裡第一個它本身沒有安全第二個它後面的對重我再請教一個問題好了訓練的時候你為什麼不用普通彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6601.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6604.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
因為一個6塊4塊多算6塊好了一個6塊然後一個你們訂了18塊8你在訓練為什麼不用普通彈沒有說訓練不能用普通彈我們整個一切的採購我們一切的戰備存量參謀長告訴我們為什麼你在訓練不是用普通彈我們訓練的很多彈藥必須要從戰備來推耗以節約這個攻堂和避免再做廢彈的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6627.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6651.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
它的價格是它的三倍請告訴我們推號我們可以理解可是你的普通蛋一定比鋼芯蛋多得多因為你從過去到現在你生產的都是普通蛋庫存的普通蛋量是比鋼芯蛋還少所以我們剛剛也報告了在普通蛋我們推號完畢之後我們為了平站一致和為了能夠有較佳的貫穿力我們會採購鋼芯蛋所以你的鋼芯蛋是要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6657.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6665.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
做戰備儲存的戰備儲存可是你在採購的時候你是說要訓練喔沒有報告在預算書表裡面是講戰備儲存及教育訓練用彈補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6669.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6677.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
你的採購書公告採購上面說的是訓練的你們自己再去看清楚所以其實我們就是還是回過頭來我們要知道的為什麼我們的產線沒有辦法自己生產因為如果你要做到生產鋼芯彈也沒有問題可是你卻要外購應該要告訴大家我們的生產線有沒有問題報委員應該就我的需求來說我先不談生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6698.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6719.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
今天如果在國會的殿堂上面參謀長沒關係你已經解釋了今天如果在國會的殿堂上面這個都是有記錄的如果有人公然說謊未來是不是大家要負起這樣的責任都可以嘛所以我們希望你再回去查查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6720.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6724.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
M855鋼心彈對我們的武器裝備會不會造成損耗他的壽命是不是會減短這是很普通的常識因為M855A1是美方現在全面要的我們要第一個提醒是我們不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6740.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6749.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
去幫人家清庫存第二個我們自己能做的因為你每次都說要國防自主當你花了五十幾億又增加二十幾億去增加這些生產線到現在還沒有辦法做出我們需求的彈藥這個問題到底出在哪裡這個可能陸續後面還要再追蹤我們現在要講的是你講得很清楚嘛等它生產的線擴線以後我們就有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6763.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6768.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那現在國軍的部分他現在有一個比較急增的一個需求他要去把它這個補充戰備存量跟做教育訓練的需求所以這個我想這個就是一個部長既然你又要再講我們再來說好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6779.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6783.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們過去的戰備存量我們因為我們要建廠所以其實我們沒有賣出去我們把它用在戰備就是我們的戰備用量還有我們的訓量那時候所以我們沒有在外就是沒有把它賣出去所以那就是在估計我們的戰備存量 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6799.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6814.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
部長如果像你剛剛說的那個理由都不是現在應該有的理由我們現在講的是我們的新產線照理都應該要能夠馬上生產我們自給自足不然我們就不用增加這個啊今天你如果因為多了一些義務役我們現在的國軍是減少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6817.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6833.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
然後你說我們那個戰備存量跟我們的那個訓練的彈藥是不足的這是第一點矛盾第二個我們自己能做一直強調明明我們自己能做用到了我們的戰備存量所以我們要先去補戰備存量 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6833.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6839.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以現在有一個比較急的採購嗎部長那是他們跟你說的嘛我就說他的戰備存量他每年都在計算嘛他以前就已經都補足了所以他沒有賣出去嘛他以前每年都有賣給其他國家他甚至賣出5億發以前的用戰量沒有那麼高嘛報告委員我必須再報告一點因為我們現在戰備對於庫儲基準的調整是提升的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6855.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6882.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以并不能用以前那这个提升的比例我不方便在这里公开讲下去可以跟委员报告它是提升相当大的因为我们不能仰赖作战的时候才去考量到这个紧急的生产或是外援那那个整个是不太可能所以我们是提升了战备的满足率我们再提醒一次我们花了很多的钱好几十亿我们盖了新产线就是为了要增加我们的制弹量这是第一点 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6883.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6894.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
第二個我們如果是要增加我們的訓練用蛋那你應該用的是普通蛋你即使我們普通蛋去年編了大概4000多萬的預算4億多然後要買4000多萬發 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6901.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6929.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
事實上好像也沒有足額的提供所以如果像這樣子普通彈是訓練用的你的戰備彈是另外的考量這個部分我們再次提醒如果說你們用這個沒有辦法好好的解釋我覺得這後續可能還會衍生更大的問題就這個部分提供詳細的資訊我們下去會會同相關單位到委員辦公室向您做完整的說明確定的時間是今年 延到今年九月 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6931.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6944.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
5.563月其他的9月全部都可以如期你們去年也是很拍胸脯保證12月報告委員我記得我來這段時間沒有跟委員拍過胸脯因為我們這是按照委協書來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6945.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6970.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
不是你們沒有拍過胸脯是你們之前已經對外講然後在報告上面也講了就是說可以生產一億發的這個子彈所以今天時間關係就是我們剛剛提到的就這個部分是到底是誰下定決心我們剛剛剛開始提到的包括火藥跟子彈都是有人強調要外購這些東西都是明明我們自己能做的我們自己能做的然後品質還不錯的價格又有優勢的我們偏偏自己要選擇外購 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6974.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6979.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
有些武器裝備我們自己不會做的卻硬要做所以就這個部分包括我們延宕我們的戰力因為高雄市政府事實上就是往後延了這跟疫情沒有關係因為疫情2023年就結束了現在已經2026年了所以就這個部分我們要好好的釐清每一項如果影響我們的戰力到底要怎麼追究責任這個可能所有的今天在場的各位都要負起這樣的責任 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7001.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7005.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
最後補充一句我們的那個前陣營區是有償撥用371億我知道是有償撥用你是賠錢的包括你的土屋包括那個是一個精華區耶人家給你人家給你你如果要這樣子說有償撥用可能還要再去算一算那個到底是賠錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7022.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7040.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
還是賺錢好不好你的生殖基金本來應該用在武器裝備彈藥的你們有些把它都拿去挪作他用或者在這個時間上面挪作他用就是像這樣賠錢就是了所以這個部分我們還可以陸續再檢討謝謝好謝謝馬委員發言我們下面請這個王地宇委員發言好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7060.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7064.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
謝謝主席看起來我們今天時間很充足可以來慢慢問先請顧部長陳建億參謀長也請一同準備局我覺得剛剛有些問題一直你們被打斷沒辦法完整回答我想釐清一下我想國人也關心大家都要清晰這個事情第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7084.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7097.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
鋼心彈到底有沒有在訓練的時候用有沒有在用 簡單回答包括有 而且數量大於普通彈你把精準的數字念一下剛才我聽部長講嘛 4000多萬發嘛我們在講是年度吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7099.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7104.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
來 部長請說每年的訊號是5367餘萬發普通彈是860萬4763萬4763發 佔17%鋼芯彈是4506萬7567發在83% 這應該是在講這個是具體數據 近三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7124.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7151.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我覺得我們現在討論的問題是基本的科學問題什麼叫科學問題有就是有 沒有就是沒有是就是 不是就不是鋼心彈在我們現在每年年度的訓練裡面占比83%是4000多萬發一年代表我們訓練的實彈射擊的用量相當高而第二個我要請教的是那鋼心彈這樣用槍管會不會損壞不過我要先講一個基本概念所有的子彈經過槍管都會有耗損 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7153.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7168.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所有的子彈經過都有耗損我們該真正要問的問題是不同的子彈經過的這個barrel這個槍管的耗損有沒有比人家高所以鋼心彈的使用有沒有增加耗損率 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7169.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7188.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
應該就兩個面向來說第一個它的結構性它雖然是鋼芯彈但是它它整個的鋼芯是外面是包覆包覆銅皮的是跟一般彈一樣的那基本上也跟剛剛委員所說的一樣每一把槍它的不管是炮也好槍也好它都有槍管壽命但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7190.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7211.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
鋼心彈它基本上不同於普通彈的另外一個優點就是它對於射程較遠的精度會比較高那基本上這也是我們希望能夠達到的一個訓練目標因為我們現在的訓練實彈化也開始要裝瞄準鏡了所以要打比較遠它距離遠的精度比較高但因為它外面包了一層銅皮所以磨損是差不多的不過我好奇就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7212.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7232.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這一個訓練用這麼大量鋼芯彈我們剛才講大家如果基本的軍武常識就知道所有的戰車炮所有的榴彈炮所有的槍管都會告訴你最大使用限度是幾發以後就要換一支新的所以其實都有耗損而耗損跟每個彈種之間的耗損的比較才是我們成本的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7232.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7247.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
所以鮑委員我補充一點所以就是說每一門炮或每一把槍它所設計的這個槍管壽命 炮管壽命基本上我們到底有沒有耗損我們應該再從我們實際上更換了多少槍 炮管來回推其實跟槍管跟炮管的製造的品質也有相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7254.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7274.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
為什麼人家的榴彈砲37倍進來可以跑打那麼遠我們打不遠其實有時候不是彈的問題有時候是砲管的問題砲管的品質像最近那個中國的戰車砲在泰國的邊境塘炸那就是品質問題不能怪炸彈啦好 所以鋼心彈有大量的用那我現在要問啊那我們自己會做為什麼要外購 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7276.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7304.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們剛一直聽到核心命題自己會做為什麼要外購剛剛也有報告過了這個在來 彈藥說明跟委員做一個說明就是這幾年因為恢復EUE增招 然後那個較招包含我們去年也核定了C型量的一個數量的提升所以導致有整個戰備存量跟教育訓練用彈的這個數量都增加增加的比例多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7305.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7326.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
增加將近快這個我聽起來是快一倍多吧我剛才光你們聽就是從2000多萬發現在變5000多萬發嘛大概成長了2點多倍嘛那個是訓練的部分戰備的部分也提升那我想這個部分可能不宜戰備我尊重有些軍事機密我們不提我想彈藥處這邊應該要說明的就是說過去以來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7330.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7347.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
一個戰備存量之所以夠那現在不夠那大概過去以來應該是都沒有在採購的部分我們當初在106年軍備局要205場要遷場之前有問過我們那時候評估一年的社訓量大概2000多萬而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7348.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7359.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那這前四年就突然間整個就暴升到大概五六千那這個等於說這四年打下來已經幾乎是我八年的一個訊號量那我們的產線開始量產了沒產線現在我們自己國內的鋼芯彈的產線開始生產了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7366.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7381.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
現在就是剛剛提到了115年的3月我們的這個既有的應該是分現有的跟新的我都會同時跟委員報告我舊縣也一樣請中科院都是包含在合約裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7383.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7398.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
開始量產了沒還是逐步開始現在逐步用小批量在測試所以所謂的一億發的產能其實還沒到那個數字嘛對 3月份3月份才會達到嘛好 剛才這邊整理起來就是因為我們的義務役從4個月恢復到一年期 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7399.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7417.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們的訓騎從五週變成八週所以訓練加上實彈的話以前像我們EWE的時候大概打六發也幾發現在你們打了七八百發又打很多輪因為我兒子剛退伍他們打了很多輪也就是說訓練用的彈量非常大那大的具體數據剛才也講了五千多萬發 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7419.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7447.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那鋼心彈有沒有在用 有啊用了83% 4000多萬發啊然後當你訓練的用吃到戰備美軍援外吃到戰備一定馬上去採購補足戰備所以美國才會跟日本買愛國者飛彈嘛去補他的戰備嘛否則美國自己會做愛國者飛彈幹嘛跟日本買就是他援助烏克蘭他的戰備量吃到了以色列援助外的部分吃到了所以他要增加所以這一題其實是一個科學問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7449.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7474.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
需求量跟使用量跟戰備量三個數據ABC去加總就知道了倒是有數價格的比較我覺得有三個不同這個我就不問你們了2005年當時是美軍代工合約六塊錢那個嘛2005年那我要請教各位都將領都是軍事專家一顆子彈裡面的火藥用在哪裡他是不是只有敵火跟發射藥還有沒有第三種火藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7476.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7485.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就是敵火跟發射藥而已就發射藥所以我如果說沒有美軍提供的是敵火跟發射藥我們國內製造我們還要出火藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7489.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7516.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
所以我不好意思講啦其實火藥發射藥那個發射藥跟抵火就是火藥的家種所以2005年20多年前當時的代工合約就是代工材料是他們提供的製成他來協助的那我們那個代工費的價格跟我去買那個最終成品的價格的比較基本上這是謬誤的比較第二個2005年到2025年物料成本成長了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7517.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7543.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
用這樣相差20年份比較這也是一個謬誤第三個都叫子彈不代表價格都一樣就像都叫汽車品牌不同型號不同價格也不同所以這三個比較基礎的不同去說我們不應該採購怎麼樣其實我們不管是戰備需求或者訓練需求這些採購都可以去根據科學問題去驗證合不合理所以這題我們把它打住我現在要問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7544.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7558.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
美國曾經用PDA總統撥款特權有無償提供了我們一些裝備當然這有一些涉及機密我就不細問那個部長這兩天我看媒體有揭露我們的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7560.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7582.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
護衛營就是飛彈部車的護衛營單位或者海軍陸戰隊有開始使用美國援助的M4A1的步槍這個我看媒體有報了這個確實有在使用了好像一些陸軍海軍陸戰隊有在用這一個M4A1的步槍這是美軍現役的步槍我第一個請教的我不會問你數量因為這數量是機敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7584.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7607.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
就我了解美國的M4A1它的瞄準鏡是標配為什麼我看你們出示的相片裡面我們的國軍弟兄使用的M4A1沒有瞄準鏡是相片錯了還是你們沒有提供報告委員它那個是執行的時候沒有把它放上去事實上軍援的那個部分它還是援助了一部分的那個快瞄鏡 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7608.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7625.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有瞄準鏡有一比一嗎有有一批那就不是部分就一比一所以美國美國提供給我們的M4A1步槍是有瞄準鏡對那你說他們在執行任務拍那張相片的時候是沒有裝上去沒有裝上去那什麼時候會裝因為當初他 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7628.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7653.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
配給我們就是援助的那個瞄準鏡的部分並不是1比1的援助不是1比1不是1比1所以我們就針對後備戰力提升的這個部分以及這些因為我記得我質詢過顧部長在這邊承諾包含我們T112我們都希望因為現在我們要打得準打得遠嘛才回到剛才剛才那一題嘛要打得準打得遠我們花大錢買的飛彈導彈都要又遠又準 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7654.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7678.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那我們每一個單兵各一個步槍兵所使用的武器當然我們也希望它能夠又遠又準所以瞄準鏡幾乎在美軍是標配所以我們T1122也謝謝部長那時候才是就是全部都要配上光學相關的瞄準鏡那M4是好槍啦M4A1是美軍現役在用的槍所以它如果有搭配一部分的瞄準鏡我們未來會不會想辦法讓它都補上來會全部都補滿會補滿嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7680.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7694.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
使用的時機點是什麼它不是都會裝在上面訓練的時候 射擊訓練的時候它就會裝上去用那在實戰的戰備的任務呢實戰戰備裡面它會依照不同的狀況去做配掛好 下一次你們再有相關的戰備 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7696.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7721.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
釋出的相片裡面讓我們看到有掛配他什麼時機要用另外古斯塔夫無後座力炮其實是算世界一流先進的反戰車炮那美國當時PDA也送了一批古斯塔夫給我們我們到底有沒有配下去用包委員這個部分可能不方便在這裡做說明理由是什麼我們軍援的部分原則上 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7723.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7744.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
有部分涉及敏感的部分我們就不會公開做說話我尊重 我的意思是說如果美國軍援的東西合我們用我們現在是擔心後勤補給跟不上那我們就要思考相關的採購跟我們的配發要一致如果不合我們用我們也應該要表達說這跟我們現在裝備有抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7745.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7766.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
而不是收了援助放在倉庫這個就不好我不知道有沒有放在倉庫如果有用是個好因為我看不管烏克蘭戰場或美軍現役古斯塔夫是一個好的裝備人家無償送給我們那表示要買也買得到那這個東西可不可以補足我們現在反裝甲的火力不足因為我們的66火箭彈效期快到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7767.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7791.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
紅準一也沒達標啊我們紅準二測評現在好像還沒有測完啊所以我們希望說這個火力如果是我們戰備所需求的應該要尋求這個世界一流先進給我們國軍弟兄最好的裝備我們再講一次軍事採購扶植國防產業那是第二目標第一目標是給國軍弟兄用合用好用該用的東西而不是為了扶植產業用次等品 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7792.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7802.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個觀念不一樣所以有好裝備要弄上去所以古斯塔夫你不方便回答有沒有使用我就不為難海馬斯上面有架一個應該是排用機槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7804.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7824.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我上次看他展出的時候上面有架一頂機槍我們海馬斯的 有嘛你們架的不是美國的它標配的那種牌用機槍我看起來裝的是我們國產的那個小小的那個是自衛用的機槍所以我們是依現有的數量去做搭配對 你們現在裝在海馬斯上面就那門槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7825.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7854.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
跟那個車子不是一組的啦你是用我們自己世衛用的那個排用機槍吧那為什麼不裝上美國直接他也送了排用機槍給我們包委員那個我們後面針對海馬斯智慧的部分那個是分層次檢討的那在當初海馬斯的這個構案裡面我們主要的是針對火箭發射平台跟ATACM的這個部分還有精準GMLS的這個火箭去做採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7855.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7877.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那後續再依照作戰需求我們事實上各個裝備我們會陸續的進行調整然後做採購我另外請教這個配付量剛才講的為什麼彈灰需求量大因為我們現在實戰化訓練然後讓兵習慣用槍這個是好事我們一直在鼓勵這件事情就我了解T1122我們的吸行量配付量我們的彈匣現在標準是 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7878.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7901.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
沒有 不只7個 應該是11個你比的跟陳建義比的就不一樣11個啦 7個是C型量啦兩個在連 兩個在贏嘛 對不對所以總共每一把步槍從過去 其實以前只配4個配4個 你以烏克蘭戰場來看少一輪子彈就用完了所以我們現在把C型量符合實戰化的需求每一個步槍兵帶7個彈匣 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7903.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7919.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
然後呢 兵營 軍營就是連根營各保存兩個所以是四個 四加七所以每一把槍配十一個所以我們的彈量要增加 彈匣也要增加而且你們是塑鋼的嘛 那個塑膠的比較好所以我們現在 我曾經在這邊要求以後不要讓部隊去省彈匣 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7921.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7936.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你知道嗎部隊有時候槍卡彈不是槍不好是那個彈匣被敲半天彈不上來這個把它當耗損品部長我建議很多次了我們自己兵工廠生產的彈匣能不能讓我們各使用步槍的單位每一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7936.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7955.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
給他換30%就是我強制配下去讓你更新因為不要因為一個彈匣這麼低價的東西去影響整支槍的效能勤儉建軍是陸軍的文化你們省到那個彈匣從頭上敲 敲到桌上那子彈彈不起來就彈不起來這個不好所以我建議這彈匣定期更新你們現在有沒有這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7956.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7979.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
鮑委員有 我們除了您要求的T112每一支槍要多增加4個彈匣之外另外T勾1含以前其他的原來配附是5個我們現在要增加到11個的話要多買6個另外檢討了全軍現在所有故障的彈匣數字我就不跟您報告了這三個部分我們全部都重新檢討也編列了相關預算盡快太新了我覺得給國軍隊的裝備足夠的資源讓國軍弟兄我們不管在各項家籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7985.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8014.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們過去10年加擠調整了18次然後我們的基本的薪資調整了4次當然我們希望越多越好只要合法合憲大家來處理但是裝備要合宜我覺得這是每一個不管是士兵到將領裝備合宜是一個非常重要的事情那我就不再多佔時間我希望部長我們我一直在檢討我們的邊線比最小戰力域值以及相關的東西我還是會持續追蹤希望如果整理好出來之後給本席一份好不好那以上謝謝各位時間 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8020.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8026.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
謝謝接下來請沈博洋上台質詢沈博洋委員不好意思謝謝主席 那有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8048.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8070.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
陳委員好部長好那我因為今天還是跟這個彈藥有關係所以我想問一下國防部的意見就是說最近最主要是想要問經濟部但是我在想說問經濟部之前先問一下國防部最主要就是因為賴總統在之前在講這個國防預算七大目標的時候有特別提到要提升軍備的量能然後去帶動經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8074.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8094.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
帶動經濟這件事情其實並不是國防部職業的責任它比較多是在經濟部因為今年在AI的部分經濟部有去做產促條例的修正因為彈藥跟無人機如果說也真的要納入到我們整個的國防產業來說的話我們經濟部的產促條例有沒有修正的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8098.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8117.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那我最主要這樣問的原因就是因為比如說在疫情的時候我們那時候也有這個所謂的口罩國家隊我認為口罩很重要但那時候廠商還是會有一些卻步就是因為他們就預估說可能兩三年之後這個可能就沒有什麼市場了所以你要他去設廠要去他生產他還是會有一點這個那個動機不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8119.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8146.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們今天當然就是說不管是整個軍備產業的提升民間的加入確實很重要他們也是會有一點猶疑目前在產促條例跟產創條例裡面它針對AI的部分是做一些減稅什麼等等之類的措施所以我現在想問經濟部就是說有沒有這樣的一個機會但因為如果真的要這樣做我認為國防部的意見還是重要所以想問一下部長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8147.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8160.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
跟經濟部合作這件事情就是說我們去盤點我們現在要在地化我們的經濟民間的這個要來發展就是去符合這個總統講的國防帶動經濟有沒有可能經濟部那邊做一些修正我想就國防部立場我們應該跟經濟部一起協調來就這個我想我們當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8172.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8198.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
要強化我們的國防韌性在地的自主生產當然是很重要很重要的一個能量的建構因為有時候就是會這樣子就是說假設我們接著去問經濟部經濟部就說這個國防部可能會有意見什麼等等他還沒有這樣講所以我就想說趁今天這個機會先問一下國防部如果有機會的話我們下一次在會同經濟部討論這一個產促條例修正的時候就可以去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8198.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8224.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
有沒有可能讓我們的民間加入的時候它在這一個產促條例裡面享有一定的優惠這樣的話更能夠去帶動相關的經濟發展但是倒過來講我也會擔憂一件事情就是說因為民間越來越多的加入但它又是國防的等於是帶動產業的一環我在看國外的時候他們比如說美國他們在這個國防工業基地這個DIB他們也把它納入到CI裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8225.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8253.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
但是問題是一旦納入到CI有可能會變成是另外一種廠商會卻步的原因因為你一旦納入到CI它要做的事情變多了我們剛剛講我們本來是想要用產速條例的方式增加多一點誘因讓產業能夠進來結果你把它納入到CI之後可能又會變成說它的成本提高但因為世界各國的趨勢就是有可能把它納入到CI所以我想問兩個方向第一個就是它有沒有可能納入到CI這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8254.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8278.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那第二個就是呢如果他沒有他如果被納入了CI的話我們有沒有辦法去減緩這樣的一個憂慮比如說他可能會享有一定的比如說今天在封控的時候他的海空的運輸可能優先他在停電的時候呢他可能跟醫療院所一樣他不會被先停電就是他有沒有這樣的一些配套措施有在研擬還是說我們目前的這一個目標是先不要把他放到CI |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8281.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8293.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我覺得放到CI的這個部分如果你要問我從未來的角度來看可能是勢必是要去做的一件事情那只是說我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8296.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8322.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為彈藥的部分我想我們先不論了因為我想這個不適宜再公開來說但是就無人機的這個部分我想大家會開始逐步地會興起一些主要的一些它的系統的職業整合商還有各領組件的供應鏈這個整個那這個如果成為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8324.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8350.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就是國家佔領的一個重要來源的時候這個當然會形成要如何確保它的韌性這個成為當然要成為一個討論的課題如果是這個樣子的話我個人也是認為說納入CI是有它的必要性但是就是就像剛剛講的納入到CI之後有可能會對他們來講對廠商來講它一定會有一些成本所以有什麼搭配的措施可能是在納入CI的過程當中可能需要去考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8351.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8367.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那這個部分就是我覺得這個有些事情等到之後真的開始進入到那個階段的時候我們再來討論這邊我只是先做一個提醒對 因為我稍微再講一下因為納入這個關鍵技術設施以後或者無人機成為國航供應鏈裡面重要的一款一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8368.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8388.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
他們就會變成要被強調要治安因為他會涉及到相關的這些因為TIL程度高到一個程度他就會有一些治安的防護那我們也要查詢他的背景所以會有一些金流然後還有人員的安全查核其實這些不只是您講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8390.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8419.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
有關列入CI之後它相關的韌性的維持包括這些應該要進行的事項都是要考慮的這個全部都是因為它就會變成屬於在軍工產業的一環裡面的時候按照美國現在相對的經驗都是對於他們都有些特殊的要求對 這個對雙方來講其實行政成本都會有增加因為我畢竟就是說我們講什麼國防要來帶動這樣的一個經濟它不能只是一個口號而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8419.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8439.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
所以不管是剛剛前面講的這個修法或者說後面這邊搭配的措施我們如果一開始能夠完善化的話這個帶動經濟的效益一定會更好那接下來我想問就是因為剛剛部長也有提到就是無人機就是無人產業那因為最近我看到這一個後面我待會再問就是我把它放到哪裡去了我看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8441.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8464.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
沒關係 我留在這一頁好了就是因為最近我在看這個西班牙那一邊它有歐洲幾個他們自己有辦了一個會那也有歐洲幾個國家的國防部也有去與會那他們在講這一個無人機產業的時候他除了強調本來就是我們國防部有在講的真打一體什麼等等之類的這邊的應用之外他們開始在討論無人機在後勤的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8465.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8491.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那就是說因為我們之前的這個報告的內容大部分都還是在強調偵打這個部分那我覺得這當然是好事因為這是我們的作戰需求但因為就像所有的作戰作戰都是要看後勤那後勤這邊的不管是去中心化讓大家的人這個人力的耗損減低他們已經開始在討論這個無人機在後勤這方面的使用這個我們台灣很多救災的經驗其實也有可能是有重合的地方所以不知道往這一 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8492.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8497.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
現在在這一個方向我們針對無人產業這個部分針對後勤的部分國防部有沒有什麼規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8498.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8523.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
現在主要是看無人機的一個技術是不是一定有具備一定的技術能力那這個當然有因為它跟增打的要求其實是完全不同的對 它要自主導航 長時間滯空那其中還有一個最重要就是那個負載 負載能力如果相關的這個負載的能力不高的話那光運載 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8525.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8543.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
一箱的彈藥可能就超過它的負荷所以我想這個部分都屬於我們後續就是說我們應該是要來進行考量也要來提升這樣子的一個負載的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8544.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8560.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
如果說技術能夠到位負載能力能夠到位的話我想我們不會排除這樣子的一個作為後勤的運用因為我覺得國際這樣的討論應該都是有它的意義存在我們現在在很多的國家也都有軍事協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8562.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8584.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那如果这个之前我也询问过了如果不管是人力的增加我们专业的人才能够在国际多参加这样的一些会议然后把一些新的事情带回来讨论这对我们来讲一定有一定有很大的注意因为它跟前面我们刚刚讲的经济的这个带动也有很大的关系那我最后一个再问就是说跟我们的后背有关就是因为114年我们不是开始有这个后背战事的这个实施做法吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8584.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8603.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那這個因為後備戰士的招募狀況當然並沒有到非常好那裡面呢就是我遇到幾個案例就是說因為它裡面有一個好像是12年還是10年我記得它有一個時間的限制就是說你今天志願役退了下來然後12年之內等等之類的可以去進入到這個後備戰士 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8605.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8621.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那我就遇到滿多人跟我講說就是他已經超過了那個年限了但是他的專長或者說他的實力他認為自己是可以來做這件事情所以在這個年限上面的這個調整或者說資格限制這邊呢現在有沒有過嚴的問題還是說其實跟這個無關我們的招募狀況其實是別的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8626.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8647.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
跟委員報告我覺得是這樣子就是說後備戰士是禮拜六禮拜天來那麼如果是陸軍的一般部隊的話如果不能夠融入編制從事相關的任務的話禮拜六禮拜天來 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8648.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8666.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
坦白講只會增加一個負擔但沒有辦法所以如果看看我們可以思考看看是不是在如果以援兵援單位的一個概念來看的話在演習的時候是不是可以把它類似一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8667.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8689.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
鞭死動員的一個概念然後把它召回我想這可能會符合任務的需求第二個就是說有一些高專的比如說它是修復的或者是像飛行的我們現在已經都在檢討修復的能量如果它就屬於高專人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8690.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8711.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他如果要維持他的一個修復的一個能力那願意加入那我覺得這也可以那還有包括一些像水中爆破啦兩棲徵收啦這些我想融入到部隊的新的一個觀念新的武器然後新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8713.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8730.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個操作的模式等等我覺得這個是可以來討論那飛行員的部分我們也在檢討當中所以我想這個都會納入我們後續精進的方案好 那這個之後我們再來看檢討看看他要怎麼去精進因為我們遇到的就是他也是支援與退 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8731.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8752.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以它是融入是沒問題但它可能連線不符合但它實力又符合所以針對這樣的狀況我們能不能夠讓真正願意的人資格也符合的專長也符合忠誠度也沒問題的他能夠進入到這個系統這個對我們未來應該是很有幫助對 我們已經在我們討論過一兩次了所以我們或許會再討論好 那我之後再來追這一題謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8758.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8761.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們有請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8782.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8797.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
議員好部長好那我想一開始的時候呢還是來跟您關心一下這個F16墜毀的這個事件那因為有一些內容在記者會的時候沒有被詢問到那後續呢也有不少的這個國軍弟兄在問 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8798.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8814.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以我想先問一下有關於這個MMC的訊號異常那有報休記錄這個部分在1月7號的記者會上面有向外界說明說清查近半年的情況是沒有任何MMC的故障情形的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8815.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8834.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那麼呢 會討論這個是因為非官在試試之前有呼叫說這個MMC有故障的問題所以大家針對MMC的部分呢那就有在做詢問嘛那所以第一個問題我想說為什麼我們是清查會用半年為期而不是一年為期啊就是說這個時間當時是媒體問的嗎還是說我們自己訂定的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8839.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8861.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
包委員我們並沒有去設定這個三個月半年那一年兩年其實我們從兩年的資料都去撈全機隊的這個故障我們都有去撈他的資料兩年都撈都沒有嗎可是我這邊看二月不是沒有不是沒有包委員那我問一下這一台這一台飛機在二月的時候是不是最起碼有三次的MMC的派休為公啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8862.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8884.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
派工維修六拐洞洞這架飛機就是從出廠他是去年十月以後才出廠到失事當天沒有一次MMC的負擔所以他沒有任何一次MMC的維修紀錄所以這個派修他可能是在其他的F16上面有MMC的維修紀錄但不是這一架其他的飛機 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8886.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8902.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
陸陸續續都有這個現象因為整個機隊一定會有MNC故障但是針對這一架飛機從出廠之後到失事當天沒有一次總共有35次的維修紀錄沒有一次MNC故障所以我剛剛講的2月這個部分它可能是針對其他的飛機那不是在這一架嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8903.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8920 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那但是我另外要問一下那導致這個抬頭顯示器多功能螢幕上面會有無法顯示或是黑屏的狀況應該不是只有MNC失效才會發生它也有其他的可能失靈的這個相關的一些配件都有可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8920.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8938.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那其實因為他呼叫的時候談到了M&C所以我們特別關注一下那M&C的在這個包含這架以及整個機隊的這個維修情況是如何那也謝謝您剛剛做說明那我問一下這個EGI也就是我們的這個整合的GPS整合式的GPS |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8939.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8967.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
它在發生異常的時候是不是也一樣會有無法取得正確的導航資訊的問題那比方說在HUD的這種數位地圖上面那可能會有不合理的跳動跟飄移對於我們這種在能見度差夜晚淨雲的海上環境上面產生風險的問題包委員會那我問一下1月4號的時候就這架飛機有沒有派攻EGIFL有有對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8968.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8979.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好 我再講一下墜海的前兩天1月4號的時候有派工整合式的GPS就是這一架六七東東 對吧是那所以說上面因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8980.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9008.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
新上位他是回報說他的高度一直往下掉那沒有狀態可以參考改正所以未來我們等到一段時間之後那在進行這個實事調查的時候除了剛才講的因為他呼叫的內容講到MMC嘛但是在EGI的部分在墜落的兩天前有發生過EGI的fail有做過派工維修那這方面會不會進行著手調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9008.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9024.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
會 包委員我們調查的方向針對它的故障情況會影響到導航的部分我們都是我們偵查的一個重點調查的一個重點那我相信我很謝謝你很坦誠的在這邊講因為我覺得大家對於這件事情的態度都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9025.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9047.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那有問題我們就找出問題那能夠坦誠來談到就是說每一架飛機它的這個情況那我覺得這個態度也會讓更多現在在飛的這些飛官他感到是安心的所以非常感謝把這個事情講出來那也希望接下來的相關的調查我們都是用這樣正確的態度去面對它 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9048.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9068.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那再來 謝謝 謝謝您那接下來我要問一下是因為我們今天談到的是這個軍備的部分嘛那有關於彈藥籌貨的規劃我們一定是支持國防自主的那在國內能夠生產大量而且便宜的彈藥產能呢 這個能夠符合我們的戰備需求一定是重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9068.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9090.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
不過我們知道在產線上面其實都是這個約聘僱的人員在做這些組裝啊一些這個處理嘛所以今天想要特別跟您談一下我們的這個約聘僱人員的這個問題首先這個我想要問一下部長我們國軍的約聘僱人員您知不知道有最低薪資的相關規定是如何規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9091.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9117.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
有需要協助的話可以請相關的單位來給部長一些協助但你們可能走路速度要快一點好不好因為時間很有限我問的問題是我們約聘僱在國軍裡面的最低薪資的規定其實呢是所有中央政府的這個約聘僱人員都是一樣的一致的來請說跟委員報告目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9118.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9132.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
相關的薪資規定都是按照這個跟一般公共交通器官是一樣一樣啊一樣怎樣啊我是問你怎樣不是一樣啊當然一樣啊廢話能不一樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9135.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9153.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
相關的資料我們請志願司來說明一下來說明一下吧我剩兩分鐘的時間我還有很多問題要問你們來目前我們孤兒的話薪水大概是三萬八千多元三萬八千多元我想的是他的這個規定沒關係我們直接看 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9154.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9175.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們呢113年12月20號行政院就有發函國防部我剛剛為什麼要問是因為你沒有收到這個函式的通知所以我才這樣問不然其實我都會直接講114年你可以看到約僱工友約用人員等基層員工他的月薪應該要高於最低薪資的1.1倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9177.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9200.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
1.1倍所以呢我算給大家聽在這個2026年之前呢應該是31449元那在今年開始的話是32450元那您剛講到38000我很懷疑各位知不知道在我們的我們先不跳下一張在我們的軍備局裡面401場跟205場真的大家有約聘過人員由領到38000元的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9207.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9233.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
薪資嗎 約聘雇人員來講一下好不好我們約聘雇人員的薪資是三萬八千元嗎如剛剛所述各位委員報告我們生產製造中心他第一個他每個月報的他每個月就是領的剛剛我們行政院所規定的約聘用另外他有額外的生產獎金每年最高可以領到六個月以當年他的盈利每年 那他什麼時候發的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9235.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9263.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
中秋節發一次過年發一次不要開我玩笑了隔壁是律師耶你要不要問一下律師的意見這個是在講說我每一個月的月薪你跟我講說他中秋節的時候會發獎金這是兩件事情喔對 這是兩件事對 所以呢所以我要問的事情是我們在401場 205場大家領的是剛剛所說的38000元嗎有沒有領到最低薪資的1.1倍呢來 我給你看一下薪資單好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9263.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9292.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
往下 來這是我們軍備局的401場的薪資單114年的8月剛剛告訴大家了算下來應該要領到多少錢才合理31449元是最低薪資吧可是他的這個勞保級距你可以看他的薪資單上面是30050不要告訴我只差一點這是合法的問題我們國家做事情要合法再來剛剛很多人在問的205場 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9293.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9317.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
領多少錢呢 有兩萬九千五百九十塊錢的也有三萬一千零一十元的沒有領到第一沒有所謂剛剛講到的大家都領到三萬八喔第二他低於行政院函式的我們的約聘僱人員要是最低基本薪資的1.1倍所以這部分應該我強烈的要求必須要調整部長請問一下您的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9319.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9340.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
因為我您的這個資料我今天是第一次看到才了解我想我們還要下去了解一下相關的這些薪資的規範以及他們實際發放薪資的一個狀況其實我告訴你行政院早就發函給軍備局了所以部長您在這個事情不需要看到薪資單才要知道來我們下一張團影片在 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9343.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9356.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
114年的1月22號的時候我剛剛的表頭是主旨他發這個函給這個我們軍備局講說你的基層員工月薪要高於最低工資的1.1倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9358.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9376.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那他為什麼會發這個函呢你可以看到第三點這邊他就有要求你們要檢視修正所屬聘僱人員勞動契約工作項目跟薪資以高於最低工資1.1倍的標準來給薪嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9377.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9392.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那所以什麼意思什麼意思很清楚的是其實其實你們並不是內部不知道這個情況不然不會發這個寒所以我要告訴您的事情是說這個已經好一陣子了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9393.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9417.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
合法合理符合最低的要求的這個規定1.1倍他應該要讓我們每一個場的同仁都能夠領到而不是告訴我說因為中秋節有發獎金他不對喔我們這裡寫的是月薪喔不是含獎金之後喔所以不要拿這個東西來搪塞我那我希望可以好好的下去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9418.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9426.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為約聘僱人員他確實他們是我們產線上面也非常重要的國軍非常重要的其中一份子部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9427.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9445.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
因為這個星之每月的月星的星之結構你剛剛秀出來我還不是很了解所以我想我下去了解它整個月星的星之的結構你需要了解一下結構還有就是有不會只有這一兩位啦我剛剛秀出的有一個人兩個人401的兩個人跟205的兩個人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9449.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9472.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
光是我秀出的薪資單就是有四位了所以實際上我所了解的情況是超過的那我沒有薪資單我不會拿上來當成證據來在這裡跟您質詢但是有更多的約聘僱的人員他們是真的沒有領到1.1倍但他們就反正也就吞下去了想說反正兩萬九就兩萬九好了但是我覺得這是不對的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9472.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9496.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以請你們全面的去做一個檢討請問這個檢討需要多少時間能夠給我一個正確的答覆跟委員報告委員講的我們回去會做檢視因為我們的所有的基金聘僱的都是以盈餘的大水庫來支應我們給你兩個禮拜的時間我們來做分析來跟你做回報好 兩個禮拜嘛好 謝謝麻煩檢討一下謝謝主席好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9501.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9505.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
謝謝許曉欣委員的發言現在請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢主席在場的委員先進列席的任務即將上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請顧部長跟我們資源規劃司的藍司長請顧部長還有藍司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9533.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9558.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
市長 中委好部長好 市長好部長你應該是我們中華民國歷任國防部長當中歷練最豐富的你當過單產會的主委你過去的專業是律師你也當過金管會的主委是不是這樣所以你現在當著國防部長你很多領域都了解包括投資理財你也了解那請教一下你個人的投資理財該不會只有存定存吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9560.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9583.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
跟委員報告 我當律師的時候比較有投資理財的我了解 是的 是的我當了金管會後呢就不能做了不但不能做 而且還被限制算了 應該不能夠好 那我這樣子有很多限制所以後來就沒有再沒有再參與好 TISA你了解吧 TISA |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9583.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9603.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
是 這個個人的一個理財的專務目前今晚會主委在推動的幫國家的國民增加他的這樣的一個資產的投資好 那我們來看一下其實我之前上上週我問了我們的副部長我說對於短一期的志願役士官兵他們退伍後是需要協助的因為怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9603.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9615.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
因為他還很年輕可能30歲就退了退了之後他要轉業或者創業他有第二春 對不對所以目前我們對於這個第二類的退出一官兵就是154年以上未滿10年的是不是發給一次退伍金 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9618.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9644.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
没错吧 简单回答好 但是我们知道我们国军目前的基层的官兵短一期的志愿式官兵很重要他们人才招募进来之后奉献了可能没有超过10年的青春之后正当他们年壮的时候的30岁他们就要出去面对什么转业 就业或者是升学所以我们给他急难救助 法律咨询 寡惠补助职业训练 就业津贴等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9644.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9668.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
但是這裡面對他的轉業或再就業有沒有幫助呢部長我們來往下看來因為我剛剛說明你的資歷很豐富你看我們目前國家對於人民的職業保障是什麼如果他退伍了他參加勞保他根據勞退條例有僱主提撥6%這你應該了解他也可以自提而且這是複利計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9669.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9692.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
他如果退伍了他結甲歸田他擔任農民我們上週才通過了農民退休儲金條例我們過去農民退休儲金必須你有參加農保但是我們短一期的志願役士官兵他有從農但因為他領了退伍金他不能適用老農津貼他有時候也不去加農保 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9693.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9706.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
但是我們上星期我們改了我們讓他可以加入農退農退是農退是什麼假設說基本工資三萬你可以每個月存三千政府幫你補三千未來更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9707.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9730.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
過去是1比1現在是1比1.5政府出6成你出4成這是我們第二類農民他退伍結甲歸天后他可以選擇勞工他可以選擇農民都是從他退伍後才開始但是我們目前的陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例的23條你只要3年以上未滿20年折抵現在年資只給退伍金部長你了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9732.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9759.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 聰明了解好 那我們要來個提議來 我們往下看如果說我們給這些短一期的志願式官兵也類似樣的勞退或者是說農民退休儲金政府幫他提繳一部分譬如說現在勞退是提6%勞工自己也可以提提1%到6%但是有八成以上勞工都沒有提大部分都靠政府提這些錢目前勞退資金你知道年化報酬率多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9760.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9788.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
上個月的新聞 年底的新聞我們平均每位勞退基金賺了五萬多一直成長喔那如果說我們今天我們國防部推行的這個政策把它放在TISA裡面他退伍之後他如果去勞工他可以把它帶進勞退的專戶他如果從農他可以進入了農退的專戶部長 這樣你了解吧增加我們短義騎士官兵他退伍後的轉業保障您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9790.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9810.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
您的意思是他在服役的期間對 他在服役的期間我們國防部就幫他比照參考類似勞退或農退的方式幫他提一筆錢他退伍後他才能帶走但是不是退伍金的概念退伍金是一次給這個是放在帳戶裡面我下面講給你聽來 你看看我幫你試算了來 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9811.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9832.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
假如說短型士官兵我們目前以下的平均月薪大概是四萬三五年以上的平均是四萬五我是抓個平均如果我們政府提繳他在第一二年我們幫他提十趴三四年十二點五十五十七點五二十一此類推大概我們政府對他的比較大的薪資的比例第一年要幫他存十萬三 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9834.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9861.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
三四你要幫他存累積到232萬到了第五六年七八年最後十年內我們幫這樣的一個短一期志願役士官兵幫他存了71萬多但是這些錢在這十年當中根據我們的年化報酬率累積負利去計算他大概可以領回106萬請問藍市長106萬有沒有對於這些十年退伍的志願役士官兵第二類的農民有沒有比他們退伍金多 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9862.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9881.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
市長有沒有 你知道嗎旁邊有一位是哪一位保人事市長直接說有沒有比較多有比較多多很多嘛報委員 其實我們除了一筆退伍金以外其實軍保的部分也有一筆的給付對 都是一次性的對 然後軍保的給付目前官兵致富額是35%然後國家負擔是65%軍保保哪些項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9886.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9904.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
保商財嘛很多項目嘛但是你知道嗎農退跟勞退只有保什麼退休的準備 你了解嗎所以勞保有沒有你說的也有農保也有所以我在講的是我講的不是保險我講的是職業保障所以部長你回去一下指示你們的幕僚研究一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9905.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9921.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
如果今天我們國家要提升這些基層的志願役短期的士官兵他未來人生第二春他的準備除了前面的六項輔導之外請您評估一下這樣子如果以他十年來說政府投入的金額是71萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9923.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9943.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
71萬但是他可以領出來的因為有了TISA的複利他可以領出106萬這對我們團體的志願士官兵他的退伍後除了一次性的退伍金之外他不管轉從勞工轉從農業他都可以持續的把這樣的一個對自己的職業保障帶進去部長你了解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9944.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9962.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我了解 但是我想這個部分涉及到要看起來是一個新的制度涉及到政府要提繳一定的比例這個部分應該不是國防部單純本身可以決定的當然 我在財政委員會我很樂意協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9962.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9983.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
因為目前我們在國家的財政在我們叫金管這個TISA這個事情是對全民來講的一個全民國民儲蓄在日本叫NISA在台灣叫TISA最後的結論因為時間到了我說結論請你評估指示吝嗇短疫期士官兵提繳賬戶政府疫情年資逐年提高提交比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9984.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9995.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
其可自行提早同等比例该账户基金投入TESA复利累积其退伍时可全额转入劳退或农退账户的可行性一个月内提出书面报告可以吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9996.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10018.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
不過你那個投入TESA累積負力這件事情如果TESA它再去做這個整個投資的運用還是要看這個投資的一個還是有一定的當然 它有一定的風險反正投資必有風險 這沒有錯但是這幾年來我們覺得因為直接講一個負力好像這個一定可以負力它本來就是負力但是它當然會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10020.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10047.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
贏虧啦 會有損益這個請你們評估因為目前國家在推 金管會在推賴總統也支持 行政院也支持是不是為了提升我們短期志願役士官兵他們在第二春人生的時候除了退伍金目前既有的軍保的退伍金之外他可以有一個累計類似勞退或農退的方式他未來轉到農民 轉到勞工這一筆的退休保障會跟著他的人生走 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10048.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10056.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個我們要跟香港部會來進行但是你們先進行評估其他部會這個我都會設法來解決好不好好 謝謝我們來評估 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10073.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10076.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10085.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10112.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
是 賴委員部長早辛苦了首先我想請教一下因為據相關的報導說美軍抓馬杜洛的時候使用了聲波武器這個聲波武器我不知道我們國軍目前有沒有這種武器沒有你知道這個事情吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10113.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10122.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我有看到媒體的報導你看到媒體來不要忘了2018年5年多前蕭美琴你認識嗎蕭美琴當立委的時候質詢美國駐大陸中國大陸的大使館外交官受到聲波的攻擊腦損 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10136.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10153.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這一次媒體報導的時候那時候美國駐古巴的大使館也發生過類似申報的攻擊也就是在五年多前五年多前小美琴她執行的是大陸的古巴是我另外找的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10155.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10177.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那麼就是已經有這樣的技術就五年多前就有這樣的技術就有這個事情發生然後看到最近的媒體報導是說這個委內瑞拉的士兵動彈不得吐血倒地腦袋像爆炸一樣流鼻血等等的很厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10181.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10188.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
你會不會 我們要國軍的香港一套這個東西柯先生要不要先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10189.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10217.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
委員好 我是座議事次長有關各種目前在不管是武裝衝突或是戰爭當中可能使用的威脅形態國軍都有不管從智庫的分析或者跟友盟情治上的交換來去掌握相關的不管是運用或者是防禦的方法那剛剛委員所講包含美軍使用這項武器事實上現在美軍並沒有證實看到了可能是網路上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10218.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10244.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
可是我已經提到2018年蕭美琴就質詢了這可見的2018年就有了2018年就有了包委員我們現在也透過我們的創新你們都不知道你們都不知道這個事我們在做高能微波或是雷射或是其他各種新式武器的科研案那當然未來國軍會在各種能力上能夠經過科研後所以你這樣講我是不是用白話文講說國軍已經在研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10248.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10275.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
類似聲波攻擊的武器是不是沒有或者聲波防禦沒有沒有要想一下如果解放軍來的話我們如果這樣東西就算防禦一下讓他這個馬上就倒地很好對不對 這個是什麼這個還不是致命性的武器它不是致命性的武器它音量很大它裡面頻率特殊 能量集中 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10278.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10283.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這個 這個 你部長啊你那個1.25兆的特別預算你不要把這個列入採購的項目啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10285.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10296.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我想因為現在都屬於媒體相關的報導或者是有一些這樣疑似的一些不是疑似2018年蕭美琴的質詢哪裡疑似 這怎麼是疑似呢2018年你看一看 Google一下2018年蕭美琴當立委的質詢都有那時候就有人 五年多都有了你怎麼不會想到我們也是一個防疫性的武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10313.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10317.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我這邊以國防部的理解我們沒有辦法證實所以萬一如果解放軍對我們國軍採取深波攻擊的有沒有防禦之道委員因為提出來我們會盡量好去研究吧我再講一遍不要忘了不是今天媒體才講2018年蕭美琴就質詢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10341.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10343.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
你去看看 你去看看消美型的資訊好 我們下一個題這個 所以你們要去研究這個題目嘛那個部長是 我們來來研究一下 是什麼時候會有結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10358.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10373.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們可能要做一個相關的情收好 其實這個很厲害這個東西看起來不像生化武器那麼的可怕可是也是很厲害不然的話我那個人他也是死了上百人美軍很厲害 美軍太厲害了 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10377.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10397.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
零傷亡 哇 這太厲害了這就是武器啊 那我特別引用了蕭美琴的這個事情好 我們再看第二個題目我就請教因為我時間有限了 快到了你是不是確定了師通電這個軍種已經撤掉了並到陸軍裡面去 是不是確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10398.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10423.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
官員報告不是這樣子的意思是自動電軍裡面的通訊負責部隊的野戰通訊就是部隊在進行當中他要有一個野戰通訊所以將這個通訊的部隊現在本來編配那麼現在直接改回到陸軍自動電軍還是要維持他的專業特別著重在網路戰跟電子戰的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10424.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10449.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那我就請教我們現在軍種是陸海空直通還是陸海空三個還是四個 我們軍種我們軍種三個還是四個軍種跟兵種不一樣軍種就是陸海空那憲兵就是一種兵種不是一個軍種你原來有直通電軍是一個兵種不是一個軍種可是報導都說本來是一個軍種 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10452.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10469.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
不是不是不是本來就沒有資通電軍他是要不要相關的長官講一下那個站櫃是管這個報告委員資通電軍他從一開始的定位就是屬於國防部的直屬單位我們並沒有在編制上面賦予他軍種的位階 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10471.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10495.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
他是兵種 不是軍種也不是兵種這個是外界的說法我們在正式的文件裡面並沒有賦予他軍種的這個位階跟權限可是相關的長官原來少將是兵中將的啊這個缺都出來了啊 不是嗎他是提升他的位階然後把他的功能提升可是他跟軍種與否是沒有關係的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10497.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10523.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好 如果這樣講的話那我就請教這個資通電是不是如果講軍啦不一定軍種 資通電軍是不是外面一般所俗稱的白話文講就是大家講說部隊裡面的網軍是不是可以這樣講不是不是 什麼區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10525.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10552.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
網軍他是在外面採取網路訊息散播的方式去做達成某一種行為那資通電軍他設立的目的是以電子作戰攻防以及支援的方式還有網路攻防跟支援的方式來支援聯合作戰部隊有效執行任務所以這跟外面的網軍是天差地別好 那個請教部長這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10555.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10584.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
你這次的1.25兆的特別預算雖然還沒有付為了但是我們所知道都是主要是就台灣之盾的擴大版或者是主要就防空系統所以我就想說是不是一定買很多的飛彈不是很多的飛彈如果這樣子有沒有考慮過要不要類似中國大陸 俄羅斯 北韓 沙烏地阿拉伯除了陸海空以外都有個火箭軍有沒有這樣考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10585.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10587.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
跟委員報告 這個中國的這個火箭精主要當然它是包含導彈這些的那我們這邊 我們也有導彈啊不是我們對啊 我們也有防空的也有反艦的 是啊 我們的很厲害啊那另外我們這個海馬士也是一種遠程的火箭 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10607.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10634.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那如果你要講這一次軍演中國所使用的PH-111的PCH-111部分的話那我們的相對應也就是海馬士那我們海馬士現在已經公佈我們原來買29現在再增加82就我們就會有111套這樣具有高機動性高存活率的遠程的精準的一個火箭新買的海馬士的射程可以多遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10635.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10649.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
他平常一般蛋大概70到90那如果是ATACMS的話40到300那當然美方還有另外一種PRSM的話可以到500500可以達到哪裡大概江西左右吧好 所以沒有我最後一句話你沒有回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10661.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10665.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
有沒有考慮要成立火箭軍你剛剛講我們飛彈很厲害啊很多啊要不要考慮加一個軍種叫火箭軍他雖然叫火箭軍但是這幾個國家的所有火箭軍他都是以戰略飛彈部隊為主他具有戰略層次的打擊能力所以我們的我們只以守勢作戰來講我們的所有的火箭跟飛彈都是用為自衛所用的我們可以打到江西就不是守勢了不是跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10691.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10697.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
你不要看到火箭軍這兩個字以為它叫火箭它其實都是戰略性的那些飛彈對嘛 就飛彈軍嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10701.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10714.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
但是對我們來講 我們的反艦的飛彈我們飛在海軍 我們的航空飛彈也在空軍我們的海馬是在陸軍我們都是採聯合作戰的一個首次作戰所以沒有 你 我的答案就是答案不考慮就對了啦 是不是就這麼簡單啦 可以這樣講嗎委員要進一步了解一下這個所謂中國的火箭軍它內涵是什麼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10725.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10730.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
還有俄羅斯 北韓 沙烏地阿拉伯都有軍種都有 都一樣不是只有中國大陸而已都一樣 是好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10762.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10788.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
是 部長好我們來討論一個關鍵彈藥數量足夠嗎的這個問題那近年來許多的軍事衝突我們都很清楚一個事實戰爭的勝負它不是只有單一因子它不只是取決於武器先進與否而且是在能不能在高消耗的這個情境上面你可以持續的去補充彈藥維持這個戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10790.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10804.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那現在我們戰爭當中我們很清楚看到彈藥消耗的速度往往比超平常的時候它速度需求更大對不對是所以特別是在防空飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10806.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10827.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個精準導引彈藥以及火炮彈藥跟無人系統相關的這個耗材那一旦如果進入到暫時的高度交鋒的時候如果補給鏈去中斷 庫存不足那即使擁有有先進的武器也可能在短時間之內喪失了這個有效的戰力對不對 部長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10832.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10834.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那施的情況之下我們要先來討論國內我們的生產量能可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10845.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10862.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們現在應該有分說國內可以產製但是可能現有產能不足或者是國內沒有產能需要外國獲得國內產製可以的我們到底我們的量能有沒有照我們原先所規劃的這個量能可以產出 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10863.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10883.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以如果以輕兵器的這些彈藥我想是不是軍備局說明一下好 軍備局請做說明跟委員說明我們205的輕兵器就是在今年的3月我們有用中科院的那個委協書做了FM的你講的是5.56公里的這個鋼筋嗎90公里跟50機槍我們都會今年都會恢復量產 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10890.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10910.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
恢復量產為什麼呢因為應該是繳成是比您所剛剛一直委員詢問的你預計在今年的3月份你的產線可以再去量產但是如果依照我們原先的規劃應該是往前推嘛是不是就產線擴張 對 產線是不是來 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10914.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10932.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
產線的擴張 我假如是按照剛剛馬遠的執行過了我舊產線兩條 新產線有四條那我只要再增加了底火我也有編了特別預算我的底火我再擴一條線那在高耗的情況之下我們評估是可以滿足我們的需求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10933.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10952.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
評估是可以滿足我們的需求所以依照目前你所說的3月份的這個部分是可以5.56的這個鋼琴的部分你是可以滿足這個需求而且擴限滿足這個需求同時也是在3月份可以去呈現是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10955.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10959.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
3月份就可以量產了3月份就對啊 就是可以呈現嘛可以量產呈現是不是部長 這個在這邊啊因為國人都非常的關心剛剛特別跟你討論的這個部分也就是我們也生怕如果到時候斷鏈的時候要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10971.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10973.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那我們支持我們的這個MIT這是全國全力的支持所以剛剛軍備局局長所做的報告是在3月份可以量產出來你所增加的這個產線 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10988.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11010.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
剛剛提到的5.56的那個部分是3月然後其他的部分到9月那這是清兵器的部分那我們其實還有還有飛彈的部分然後還有無人機的部分那請說明一下國人非常的關心8月的部分是什麼呢讓國人放心也知道我們MIT是可以的是不是請中科院說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11012.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11033.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
8月份的時候 請說說明我們可以量產出什麼樣的產品飛彈的部分是由中科院來負責生產跟委員報告大概一個數量就是從111年海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們的飛彈產能增加了2.63倍這是整個精準飛彈的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11035.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11059.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
其實我們的飛彈設定並不是像委員講的就是說我們是以平時訓練或是概括數字作為規劃的現在請你說明清楚而是在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們以台灣海峽為一個天線的話在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們要把他的登陸部隊消耗到50%以上作為我們一個庫儲的標的和目標所以在剛剛你所說明的當中這個是可以達到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11060.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11078.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
目前我們的庫儲標的是以這個作為目標以這個作為目標 讓國人清楚 請大家放心但是你沒有回答本席剛剛所說的剛剛部長說的在8月份的時候哪一個 軍備局請你做說明9月份是7.6那到底是8月份還是9月份因為剛剛部長是說8月份我說9月部長說9月沒有 你說8月沒關係 就是我們要聽清楚這個就是我們應該是我講錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11086.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11095.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
9月份恢復7.6290公里手槍彈7.62的那個部機槍彈還有武林機槍彈都是在9月份可以量產好那部長剛剛我們所做的5分鐘的討論很清楚的我們不是以平常訓練的這個概括數字來定奪是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11110.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11113.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
對 我們現在要提高我們的戰備存量是 一定要讓國人他就放心第二個也就是MIT的部分我們國人我相信不分藍綠白的委員絕對會全力的支持是不是對 像剛剛我提到的那同時剛剛除了輕兵器彈藥 飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11128.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11150.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那我們還有一個像無人機所以我們無人機無人機誰負責是不是說明一下因為這個現在大家都很關心它的耗材量也非常的大無人機現在就是我們要把這個量能給開出來國防部作為最大的需求者所以就是要在115年 116年那我們現在已經有對外公告我們要買48000多架那我們長期來看我們還要購買更多那這個也放入那個特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11157.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11160.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
好 所以這個也就是國人的安全對 國人的安全這是第一個也是我們國防部最重要的職責那第二個我們關心的也就是MIT的部分我們是絕對一定全力的支持讓國人都可以知道台灣的量能台灣的能力到底在哪裡那剛剛所回答的我們會繼續追蹤也希望大家勉勵大家一定要達陣成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11185.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11189.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們會盡全力來努力謝謝謝謝委員接下來請林倩琦委員林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請洪孟楷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11215.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11217.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好主席謝謝麻煩請顧部長請顧部長好顧部長顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11228.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11252.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
本席過去到現在一直認為說保密相對重要國家其實有所謂的這個國家檔案機密法保密法所以說我想請教一下像今天我們又送進來的這個報告其實每一次給立法院外交國防委員會我想已經在第11屆的立法院每一次都有這樣的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11252.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11272.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那現在突然說傳出來現在這個報告上面又寫一個五本憲署公開資訊我想請教一下這跟我們現在的這個國家機密保密法有什麼樣的一個出路有什麼樣的差別國家機密保護法它也有一個要 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11273.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11298.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
合定機密的一個精神嗎是啊那我們我們過去到現在不都這樣做嗎如果說公文書裡面有機密有分普通件機密件這個高機密件跟絕對機密件嗎那我想先請教因為其實這就是國人現在看到就是說這一段時間尤其這兩個禮拜讓大家覺得說非常訝異或說覺得是說好像多此一舉就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11300.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11315.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
給外交國防委員會的資料我想這邊也有媒體也有相關的委員同仁等等的那你這些資料不是都屬於公開資訊嗎多增加這一句話的意思是什麼對核定這份資料的人來講他要確定這一份都是公開資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11317.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11343.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那過去沒有嗎過去沒有核定我們現在要求就是說希望他們在核定的時候因為過去如果沒有辦法能夠逐頁或者逐段的來核定的時候就會導致兩種情況一個就是說本來應該要列密的沒有列密那或者是本來不應該列密的把它列明過去有發生過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11344.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11359.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我想請教一下因為外交國防委員會跟其他委員會比較不一樣是有些時候可能會開秘密會議也因此在開秘密會議的時候即便是我們委員也要簽到也要屬於是說你要參加秘密會議還是要是公開質詢對 那個秘密會議的時候會把記者媒體朋友給請出去那我現在請教一下如果在開機密專報的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11363.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11379.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那些機密的文件確實會有包含它會標示機密或標示無那麼委員在即使就拿到這個機密專報切決要保密的情況之下如果那一段是屬於無的話委員就會很清楚理解那一段是可以公開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11380.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11400.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
是 那我現在就說90%的情況不是整份文件都變成密現在在討論的是我現在跟你在討論那今天的資料上禮拜記者會已經讓大家覺得嘩然就說連國防部的記者會都要每一句每一句連報告完畢都要有一個無那結果你那個時候我想 顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11402.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11413.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我尊重我們國軍弟兄大家的一個專業但是也不要讓變成是說長官一句話國軍弟兄大家叫苦連天或說大家變成是要做很多的紙上作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11416.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11435.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
來 消耗大家的行政量能所以本席想要請教的是你現在又再改變了說不用每一段都後面加5但我想請教的是說像今天這個報告本來它就是一個公開的回覆的資訊的一個報告上面又加一個5本件屬公開資訊那過去有公開資訊裡面放密件嗎公委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11442.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11464.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
如果一份文件它有一些部分是並不是屬於密的那它過去的話它就會可能是一份上百頁報告的內容它其中有一個段落涉及機密結果整份報告都列為密所以我們現在才會有一個不管是從美軍的做法或相關有盟國家的做法我們來一個做精準和密我再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11468.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11470.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
因為現在在數位化的這個時代我們對於相關的這些文書的這些檔案我們到時候都要有一個儲存然後我們有一個傳遞 我們一個運用那麼我們如果做這樣的精密核試大家才會讓人家理解說 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11486.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11501.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們在不同的這個機密的網域裡面他可以有存相關的哪些資料然後哪一些被核密的人員他可以接觸到哪一些的密 機密即機密跟絕對機密都是不一樣的人所以這個精準的核密的做法精準核密的做法是每方行之有年行之有年我們要跟他做共同的對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11511.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11528.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
本席想要強調的是不要說美方行之有年重點中華民國我們自己就有我們自己的機密保護嘛你的法源依據是不是也是依照中華民國的機密保護跟委員報告根據國軍的保密教則本來就規定要逐段逐頁要審任機密我們只是沒有去落實所以過去都沒有落實部長講一個大實話我們現在是要求要這樣的落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11539.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11568.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那所以新頒的這些相關的規定這樣子所以今天本席要跟你探討就是兩個部分過去部長講一個大實話過去都沒有落實那該檢討該究責但現在不要矯枉過正啊我想請教一下給外交國防委員會所有媒體朋友大家都可以上網甚至一般的民眾上立法院議事網站你也可以有相關的資料可以看到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11569.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11573.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那我想請教像這樣子在上面再多一個無本件署公開資訊這個意義在哪邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11577.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11593.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
就是告訴這個是一個公開資訊而且合定的人沒有寫5就不是公開資訊合定的人就會在每一段上面他都逐頁都能夠認知到這是一個公開資訊跟委員報告我想請教外交國防的資料過來的時候有沒有被核定過我們可以來保持一個開放討論的態度但是我們親密的和密還是我們的一個基本的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11606.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11623.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
過去到現在外交國防委員會的資料最高層級到誰核定市長還是部長 甲章乙章我想如果到國防部來進行報告最後當然都會到我這邊來大家進行討論所以過去到現在也都是你核定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11623.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11630.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
不是說核定的概念的權限的問題是說要進到這個外交官委員會來你剛剛才講是說要給核定人確認然後是看這到底是機密還是無機密現在又講說不是權限的問題你可以說好那如果要這樣講的話關於到外交官委員會的報告都是會經過我這邊是所以你過去沒有落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11650.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11670.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們過去要怎麼樣進行標示這件事情並不清楚副長 本席很語重心長因為我希望是我們國軍做實事如果說真如同說現在民進黨政府講兵兇戰為不要讓我們國軍弟兄大家變成是都在做紙上工夫然後大家都在做行政作業流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11671.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11691.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
上個禮拜已經每一段落後面一個五已經讓大家覺得是一笑大方但現在你要搞另外一個部分其實國家機密檔案法本來也就有相關的規定如果說是普通件上面在一開始公文傳輸的時候就會寫普通件如果說有機密件就會寫說機密幾年解密它有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11693.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11711.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
但國防部現在變成是自己在搞另外一個版本或是另外一個系統你說要跟美方還是跟我們國家接軌如果說是跟國家接軌的話那其他部會要不要比照辦理那如果說是跟美方接軌的話很抱歉我們中華民國有我們自己的法令規定也不是美國人說什麼我們都要聽什麼我覺得這兩個要分得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11716.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11744.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
在軍事上面我們可以跟美國有比較多的一個合作但是對我們自己的一個保密的部分我覺得我們自己要依照我們自己相關的法令中華民國法令本來就有規定不是嗎國防部就是在推動這樣子的一個精準的資料治理啊所以你們過去就沒有精準嗎然後現在又有點是矯枉過正嘛所以說才會變成是說之後每一個報告上面都要有一個5然後本件署公開資訊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11746.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11765.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這就矯枉過正然後上禮拜我還是強調上禮拜我們委員在跟你質詢的時候其實大家也都是把民眾看到的部分甚至你說記者會公開的資訊我們都請教記者會都已經是國防部邀請來記者朋友來報導了你們會把機密秀出來給記者看嗎那結果還要這邊標示這種部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11771.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11778.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那今天給我們所有外交國防委員會的委員就已經是公開的資訊了還要再多編列多標示我們做一點實事啦我們是在做實事就是在做實事所以我才跟你再一次的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11789.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11817.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這件事是不要在紙上作業讓官兵弟兄造成行政上的一個浪費會整個會帶動我們的一個數位化資料治理的一個進步跟委員報告這是事實部長您之後慢慢的我想我們現在在磨合期還會有很多可以討論的空間我們會徵詢各界的意見來隨時檢討改進但是這是一件應該要做的一個基本功 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11818.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11838.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以本席就是聽你這句話之後才會覺得說你上禮拜推動的真的是太過倉促沒有討論就直接推動好好的做事希望我們國軍弟兄加油好不好我們是討論了有相當長的時間但是當然還是有一些值得檢討的地方啦謝謝部長謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11859.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11883.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
您好我們請部長請顧部長部長好部長針對這個機密標示的一個制度性問題我還是想要繼續來提問那在美國的制度裡面那關於這個機密的標示它是以什麼樣的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11886.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11914.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
以美軍我們現在所收到的所有文件它大概不管是標題或每一段它是在標在前面它在標在這個每一段的前面好 抱歉我剛才可能講得不夠清楚或明白標示機密 最高機密或非常的絕密這些等等它標示的這個權責是由誰來去做標示以及為什麼要標示這個資料是為最高機密或者是次高機密等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11915.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11915.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
因為會這個整個標示 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11919.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11949.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
疑問文件他標示為不管是這個比如說是U那就是Unclassified那會有Confidential會有Secret會有Top Secret那麼標示完之後他並不是整整個文件其中有一段那他就每一段都有這樣不同的標示之後呢那麼他在我想在儲存運用上的時候就會在不同的可以接觸人的這個特別在數位化裡面都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11949.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11963.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我們會有不同的一個網域在這個比較低層的網域的時候呢不是屬於機密的會往這個低層來送那麼如果是屬於機密的低層的網域的人就看不到這個機密的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11963.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11990.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那跟委員報告如果我們要進一步在整個我們的這些所有相關的這些共同作戰圖像或者共同的情報圖像在不同等級的人要能夠看到這些相關的文件這樣的做法是有必要的好 謝謝部長其實部長剛才你回答的是我可能等一下要問的比較細部的問題那我剛才主要的問題是說我們依照什麼樣的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11991.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12017.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
認定這個文件是機密或者不是機密那我想過去包含我們在立法院這兩年國安局也好或者是其他的這一個國安相關的單位那我遇到一個問題就是說我發現到很多明顯是公開資訊的事情但是全部都以標示為密件或者是用機密會議的方式提供給我們這些我們在這一個國際關係討論就會看到的這一個資訊那這就是沒有清晰的把 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12018.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12041.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
資訊做一個很好的去歸類跟分類那在美國的部分那部長我先講完我先說完然後等一下還會詢問你問題所以我看到這一次我們這個開始重視這個每一個標示就表示我們很認真的去要面對說哪些是屬於機密哪些是屬於非機密遇到機密的文件我們要怎麼樣去分段處理做數位的治理等等這未來都是有幫助的儘管一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12042.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12068.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
會有一些磨合期但是我還是要強調我們對於機密的標示它不可以無限上綱我們必須要比方說這個美國的這個行政命令的第13526號很明確的來去做一個分析對國家安全造成可識別或者是可描述的損害是可以把它標列為機密依照這個機密我們才可以一個一個往上什麼是機密 什麼是非機密什麼是最高機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12069.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12083.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
比方說我們看到這個之前我們國安局他在做一些這個簡報的時候他大概是整篇整個文件都是密但是整個文件裡面基本上可能一個段落 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12084.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12110.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
才是密等 其他不是嘛所以為什麼我們要標示的原因也是這樣我們要很清晰的知道說未來哪一些人哪一些層級的人才可以看到哪些需要看到的資訊need to know也是這樣子的所以這是一個很好的嘗試我不會說這是不對的但是很多很細膩的東西我們要開始做首先就是大量的標示機密但其實根本不是機密這就是把文件做非常沒有效率的處置在美國也會有類似這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12111.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12139.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那我們為什麼要有標示機密或者是最高機密為什麼機密的等級而且還要有解密的實現呢因為在民主的國家裡面它必須要能夠回溯能夠去看說過去它這些做出來的決定這些政府官員做出來的決定是對的還是錯的從越戰到這個韓戰越戰到後來的包含這個伊拉克戰爭第二次伊拉克戰爭大量的解密文件後來回溯才知道說當初的戰略想定是對還是錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12140.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12161.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
當初得到的情報是對還是錯當初使用情報的方式是對還是錯那後面的行政人員才可以知道說我們可以從中來得到什麼樣的教訓那以後才可以避免做出這樣子的戰略上面的錯誤所以為什麼戰略上面要公開那在細則上面很清楚的什麼樣的東西是要被列為密等的比方說軍事計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12163.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12190.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
軍事行動 情報活動還有跟國家安全相關的技術事項甚至是為了保護在美方的話是包含核材料跟他核設施的計畫所以他是有很具體的告訴我們哪些是可以核密哪些是不用核密那我們就不會把我們所有的行政效益的時間放在這上面去但是剛才部長有提到的說一段一段的這個未來的做法可不可以部長再稍微簡單的跟我們國人來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12191.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12195.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
為什麼要這麼做 這樣做的理由是什麼而且為什麼我們還要持續要這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12197.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12222.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
跟委員報告就是說我們運作下來我們就會發現到或者是討論到剛剛委員所講的如果是以這個國家金保護法的精神來講是以最小程度和密原則沒錯所以我們分段的這個和密的話呢他就會去認真的檢視這些哪一段是屬於一般公務機密或涉及國家機密或者是屬於可以公開的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12223.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12245.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那這樣子的話 我想我們有這樣子一個討論讓這個精準和密 也能夠落實這個保密保護機密的這樣的概念的話那包括跟友盟之間有一個互通性那包括在我們不同的網域之間我們有比較低的密集的網域 有比較高密集的網域 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12246.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12270.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
也讓我們安全調查之後可以涉密的人的這個權限因此可以在不同的這個現在數位治理的情況之下他不同的網系他可以有權限應該看到什麼會更精準的去展示他應該要看到的內容那如果像過去的這樣子的一個和密的方式是做不到這樣子分級分類的做法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12270.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12291.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
非常好那這是一個開始但是我們就避免最開始我們比方說昨天前天我們看到這些問題就是在每一個段落都用無納有些非就是一般文書或者是公開簡報那也是這樣子標示其實我們很快速的就調整了我認為還是要做要做但是一開始會有這一個需要調整的地方我們就快速的去應變就好了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12292.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12308.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
每一個政策的它在執行的時間它最開始都會有一些磨合期甚至是有的時候可能是有錯誤的地方那我們就把它改正就好我不認為這是這不代表說我們現在做的是錯誤的這代表我們現在做的是正確的但是需要時間跟更完善的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12308.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12319.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以我必須要強調我看他們之前他們做了十幾年在一開始也會有一個磨擦器我們這幾天運作下來我想也會有一些磨擦器所以我們接下來會來討論檢討好 謝謝部長所以我剛才要提到的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12326.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12349.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我是希望因為現在要檢討之後那還有你怎麼去分類指引還有你到底要是怎麼標速你可能還是要有一個快速的諮詢窗口那這個部分部長你們應該會有所準備吧是就會讓所有的官軍弟兄都知道接下來怎麼處理的方式因為其實一開始還是很亂我們不是很清楚我們要努力的來再宣達 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12350.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12372.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
然後也要聽取各界的意見包括我們在官兵在做這個的時候那麼他面對的一些困難我們要了解您剛剛提到的核定要件的部分事實上就是一開始的時候我就有提出來那要讓官兵整個了解核定的一些要件那在根據那個執行命令裡面核定要件裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12373.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12392.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那比方說在美方的話他的最高機密的原始的分類權限是由總統副總統或者是指定機關首長跟官員然後依此類推那在下面就是指定官方的官員再授權給這個相關的去劃設或者是說相關的指引人員那所以說他們包含每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12393.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12419.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
來自身官員的授權就授權說這個是機密就是他必須要核定這個是機密還是非機密的這些人他本身也要受訓就是他還知道說我們才不會什麼把這個非機密的事情每次為了要就是可能是要快速的要交差就先把它弄機密其實美方也有一些類似這樣的問題所以說他們會有相關的課程要讓這些和密的人知道說我到底該怎麼標才可以既符合行政效率又不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12421.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12441.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這個過度的來去區分密等那所以在美方呢那是有一個資訊安全的監督辦公室也就是說你當初把這個權你把這一個文件設立為什麼機密這個官員他的相關的這個名字職位明確都會標示給該官員就是說你去劃定這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12442.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12459.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這些資料是為機密的劃定資料為機密的這些官員他是會把紙寫跟他的名稱是會交給這個資訊安全監督辦公室的也就是說這是一個完整的配套模式他不是說我今天想說這看起來有點重要我就把它變成機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12460.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12489.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
它可能重要但非機密啊它可能是重要可以向人民去公開的資訊但它非機密啊所以它是一個非常複雜也是一個非常重要的一個整個系統這跟我們剛開始建立法院的時候我們說要查核背景人員從那個地方開始到我們怎麼樣去運用文件這個過程是很漫長的那很漫長不代表說我們最好的方法是十年前就開始做啦那我們知道十年前沒有完整的落實那至少現在開始也是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12491.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12518.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
也不會太晚只是說我們現在多討論只是說我在最後部長稍微簡單講一下就是說美國在核機密這件事情其實在內部也有很多交鋒因為近年確實有過度把一些非機密的事情變成機密導致他們管理異常困難的狀況無所不防就等於什麼都沒有在防我們重要的是在高風險的資訊上面的這個核定上 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12519.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12536.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那我認為這個才是我們要重視的部分不然現在官民可能會擔心就是說怎麼全部都是機密這樣怎麼辦怎麼樣去處理這些問題所以我剛才提到的這一個包含這個13526號的這個行政命令可以稍微去參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12537.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12561.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那再看嘛因為這經過15年美國有很多不同的變化我們還是從中取得跟我們台灣本土我們自己國軍他們過去的行為模式也要有一個比較本土化的一個做法因為直接照抄也不見得是最好的方式但是畢竟美方在機密保護上面還是領先其他國家很多的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12562.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12571.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
可以學習但是看怎麼樣做一個調和讓我們台灣的這個國軍也能夠重新有一個更好的一個安全的制度在 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12572.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12589.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
所以我想我完全同意委員的意見就是說我們一方面滾動式檢討那一方面美方已經行之有年我們也會參考美方的做法那一方面我們會吸收各界包括所有官兵在和密的過程當中所面臨的問題我們來公開討論的方式我們不是說公開我們會來以討論的方式來進行然後我再補充一點就是說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12598.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12615.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
美方他儘管是有一些機密跟相關 跟相較於像蘇聯以前這個蘇聯他把幾乎什麼東西都是軍事機密等於是零透明度所以後來所有的東西相關解密之後才發現到說他們的軍事是極端腐敗的而且是沒有辦法經過集合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12615.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12642.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
相反的因為美國有一個完整的一個國會的制衡基督還有這個新聞媒體的架構在所以他們可以從過去的從越戰 韓戰各種不同時間各種不同的衝突上面他經過文件解密之後有更多人去研究過去的一些他們做出的這些戰略也好或者是戰術的執行也好從中不斷的在學習所以美方當然是美軍當然是世上最強大的武力之一不會不斷的在監督 稽查然後再去學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12643.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12672.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那我們既要有美方的這種保密的能力那也會有一個相關相對也是要有這一個能夠去監督跟去集合的方式內部也要有內部的集合方式所以我剛才提到了這個他們的安全諮詢局他就是看說你們是不是有過度來去標示機密等等所以它是一個很平衡的一個做法那老實說我們過去這幾年來從國軍也好或者甚至是到警政系統因為有太多洩密的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12673.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12700.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
太多洩密的狀況導致說包含總統府的行程等等這些都被洩露出去這其實就直接明顯且立即威脅到這個國家的這個領導人的安全那當然我們才要做一些改變所以我想也是藉這個機會跟在野黨的朋友們來講說我們為什麼要這麼做不是要找麻煩而是說在找平衡那在這邊跟所有民眾們報告最後趙友再問最後一個問題就好關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12702.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12727.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
中共陸軍飛彈因為剛才我們提到了彈藥量其中彈藥量裡面除了這些輕型武器之外當然就是另外一個就是防空的能力那近期提到中共的陸軍飛彈的這個陸軍飛彈的數量估計有各個不同的說法那當然那另一方面有人說儘管他們那麼多飛彈但是他們的發射器有不同的立委跟不同的這個退休的軍事人員有不同的指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12728.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12752.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那不論如何 中共或許是有600個發射其他們一次大概怎麼樣等等我想要問的是說不涉及數字我想請教說現有的防空飛彈有沒有辦法阻擋第一波第二波有沒有辦法做完善的這個防護那如果我們不夠的話那要怎麼樣來去補充這個產量跟能量是不是請部長或者是院長來簡單回覆院長要不要先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12753.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12775.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
跟委員回報就是委員已經列出來之前媒體刊登有關本院產能的部分重點就是在海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們把所有的飛彈產制大概50%以上但51%點幾已經委託給民間來做也就是把你的產能韌性是積蓄在民間中科院負責的只是後段 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12776.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12804.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
最後的部分所以有50%以上是民間累積這個產能在民間這第一個部分第二個就是說我們不能判定解放軍他的空襲會打幾波但是我們的彈藥存量就是以能夠抵禦他大部分的空襲為準當然這個是如果要長時間維持下去的話沒有人會講自己的彈藥百分之百都是夠所以我們未來努力的方向就是把防空和反艦飛彈我們會去做模組化和低成本大量製造的設計這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12807.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12835.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
能量我們會在三年之內建立這也是在俄烏戰爭之後我們學到的一個寶貴的教訓另一方面我還是要提到大家都會把攻擊方的無人機或者是飛彈我們當然是用全力的來增強我們的防控能力但是也不用把他們的能力來無端的誇示比方說在2025年年底俄國是出動了40枚飛彈跟500多架無人機造成的死亡人數是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12837.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12862.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那一次那一波是死亡人數之零 為什麼有完善的防空系統的話我們是有機會能夠擋下的500架無人機跟40枚飛彈它會造成基礎設施的傷害但是我相信我國的防空能力希望可以比烏克蘭更好當然就是要有更多的資源放進去在戰前 在衝突之前做最好的準備就不會有戰的問題所以備戰就不會有戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12863.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12882.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
只要他們知道說我們的能力可以讓他們就算不斷的生產還是沒有辦法造成我們的主要的損失的話他們就會三射後卸這就是嚇阻我們的嚇阻必須要把資源放在刀口上面放在我們的防空能力我想他們一開始就會失敗好 謝謝謝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12889.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12902.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
謝謝剛剛陳委員其實有提到重點美國的這個行政命令對於這個機密的核定其實是非常清楚的如果說我們在核密的流程屬於一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12903.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12926.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
無機密的文書它本來就是一般的文書所以如果說現在除了要去做這樣的一個討論以外更應該要讓大家知道如果說用這樣的方式會不會造成像剛剛講的因為美方就是有比較民主的這個監督跟集合的制度所以它的軍力可以這麼強大 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12927.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12953.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
反而像蘇聯或俄羅斯這樣子他們在機密上面幾乎全部都用這個套上去那不斷的有很多的腐敗產生所以就這個部分也應該要詳細的對我們立法院或者我們的國人說明清楚現在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請葉元芝委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12967.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12969.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
主席好 麻煩請國防部長 謝謝請顧部長部長好我有一次想要來問一下那個之前這個無字天數的事情當然國防部是有兩次轉彎啦一開始最早的時候是要求我們軍官我們軍人就是連在網路上傳訊息通通都要加無獲密 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12992.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13019.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
然後後來把這個取消取消之後上個禮拜四這邊有很多委員有質詢這件事情當時部長還是蠻堅持的但是在1月9號晚上就宣布經過各界意見之後呢只要是那種公開的報告呢就不要再標示無了應該是這樣嘛沒有錯嘛是但我想要問一下部長因為理論上來講國防部的決策應該是要非常精緻非常細心 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13020.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13043.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那怎麼會這麼粗糙的訂定這樣的制度然後兩次轉彎當初是為什麼會這樣我想這個這樣子的一個資料治理的一個基本的功夫逐段逐頁來標示這一件事情確實在事前我們花了很多時間但是還當然還是會有很多的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13044.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13059.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
在現在在進行的過程當中會發現有一些可以檢討的地方那我想我們都會快速的來因應來審視這些有沒有跟我們原來要精準和密的這個精神是符合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13059.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13078.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那我想我們都會只要討論 確認沒有違反我們精準和密的這個精神我們都會願意接納各方的意見這個不是說接不接納當然後來您是接納了 所以改了但我們會對於軍方的決策產生一些懷疑就是為什麼會這麼粗糙 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13080.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13106.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
而且這樣的決策多次轉彎也造成了軍中很多士兵或軍官的大家的不滿像剛剛很多委員也有提到我們這邊也可以秀出來這是上下一頁再下下一頁這是上一頁你看馬上就有網友就開始酸了做這個絕無機密的貼圖就出來了然後很多軍官也在網路上 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13107.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13131.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
抱怨現在是要磕很多張嗎現在要磕很多張接下來他會做很多繁複的行政工作對大家來說壓力都非常大所以我還是建議如果國防部要做這種影響那麼大的一個會影響那麼多人的決策一定要小心評估再推不然的話就會造成這樣的困擾然後部長上個禮拜四在 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13132.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13160.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
接受有些委員的詢問的時候你說當時推這個政策是為了要跟美國接軌嘛是有這樣講沒錯嘛 對不對然後你有提到說美國也是這樣子做可是實際上我看到有些媒體其實有去找了很多美軍美國就是國防部現在叫戰爭部給國會的報告他們找了三份報告就沒有逐項逐段的去標示武所以跟部長在立法院答詢也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13161.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13184.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我不知道是部長你被蒙蔽了還是你對這個訊息的掌握那時候有落差基本上相關美軍的一些文件應該都是會有這樣類似的標誌這兩天就有媒體他們特別因為你部長你這樣講嘛所以他們就去找我至少在新聞上面就看到三份報告您講的是什麼樣的報告就是美國的國防部他們給國會的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13186.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13214.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
對 那這個就是我們現在也寫國會的報告我們現在就說不用阻斷來調查對 他們沒有嘛可是你上個禮拜四你在回答其他委員的問題的時候你就說你會這樣做是因為參考美國做法但美國就沒有這樣做啊你是現在才改嘛但你推出來的時候跟美國做法就已經不一樣了所以我不知道為什麼你會在國會會這樣答詢是有被蒙蔽還是跟委員報告啦在一開始的時候當然是比較討論到的是那個刊物 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13215.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13243.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
跟類似報紙這一類那所以我們現在後來進一步在討論一些文件的時候我們在一開始的時候是考慮到說這些文件當然以後可能也會有機密的專報也有非機密的專報所以我們認為要進行這個但是我們檢討之後確實是認為對於不特定人所已經決定公開的這個資訊那我們就對啦 所以這就不是跟美國接軌嘛這是你自己延伸出來的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13244.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13246.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我接下來你既然講到美國建議幾件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13247.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13273.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
第一個因為接下你們內部的資料還是會用密碼還是會嘛對不對內部的還是會嘛我們現在就我們這些相關沒有公開的文件我們還是會逐段逐頁逐段逐頁嘛那既然要講到美國幾件事情第一個台灣跟美國有一個差別美國他們因為有很多文職的軍官行政軍官還有專門處理文書作業的人員在處理這些行政事務台灣的這類的人就比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13274.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13281.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以如果要降低軍官的負擔的話或是軍人負擔其實可以增加這方面人力我不知道部長會考慮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13284.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13311.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
核密的這個做法當然就涉及到每一個業務承辦然後還有核定權者的長官那相關的這些如果講剛剛因為我也有委員指教是說我們是不是要有一個內部的一個集合或者是我們的情報部門的人員是不是要增加我覺得這個都可以來討論好 第二個第二個你可以看一下美國的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13313.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13323.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
你看這個 你看他們每一段如果在表頭標示的話他們會去標示說這個是誰標示的而且還會很確定說他的解密的時間那我們國防部會這樣子做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13327.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13348.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我們有在討論這件事情有在討論這件事然後第三個是他們其實都是用整合到目前是整合到 Word 系統還有郵件的所以他們在打字的時候直接就可以用插入的方式用軟體方式直接處理所以時間會比較快而且也會比較安全因為如果因為它整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13348.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13376.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
Word跟郵件系統所以假設這個Word裡面有機密的話它郵件是寄不出去的是 你講的這個就是我們現在要進一步去進去研發的是不是對 進進的部分因為現在以後一定都是數位的治理嘛所以一定不是單純的紙本所以最後在這個自動化的這個數位化的過程當中這些都是要考量進去的好 再來還有一個就是因為美國他們現在已經在整合AI系統了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13377.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13394.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個沒有掌握這個訊息就是他們現在要整個AI系統可能以後類似這個文件都用AI來處理可能在行政效率上可以更簡便也可以降低行政的負擔我們現在也是要朝這個方向來努力反正總而言之就是我是希望軍方的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13395.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13416.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
第一個可以更精緻一點在還沒有很成熟的時候不要貿然推出我們願意來檢討但是施行我想我們願意隨時來檢討但我覺得這一件事情基本上大家會覺得說它是不是一個虛工但是我還是要強調說它是一個基本功 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13416.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13432.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那所有任何的這個質疑或者是檢討或者是要求我們改進的這個部分我們都會虛心的來加以隨時來檢討然後精進調整這個我想我們都願意接受各界的批評但就是如同您講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13433.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13458.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
這個以後數位化的整個過程當中它分級分類能夠做得好它才能夠有效的在這個利用AI也好利用這個軟體本身也好它都可以有效的進行自動的一個分類的話對整個國軍在進行資訊治理資料治理的這個部分是非常重要的非常重要 不然的話美軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13459.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13467.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
為什麼要這樣推我們現在講的內部文件你們之前出的問題是對外的啦好啦 那就這樣 謝謝好 謝謝今天已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有蘇清泉委員 林立軍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13487.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13491.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
還有林楚英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13493.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13520.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
委員書面及口頭質詢的部分未及答覆的或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員有指定期限者從期鎖定那今天因為彈藥的部分也有很多委員有特別提到因為剛剛彈藥處長也有提到說因為我們裁測部隊所以我們鋼芯彈太多了那在可是鋼芯彈太多的情況之下我們連續打了20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13523.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13532.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
做這樣的訓練可是我們的產線卻一直在生產普通彈那突然一下子在今年缺了6200萬發的這樣的子彈尤其是鋼心彈就這個部分我們請國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13538.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13561.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
提供近10年核定各軍種委託軍備局製造彈藥的單美售價請國防部可以確切提供那另外因為國防部的訓練有要求訓練時到底是用什麼彈這個部分請陸軍參謀長可以認真的去研讀一下再告訴我們好不好謝謝那我們本日會議到此結束散會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13613.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13613.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
謝謝大家 |