| IVOD_ID |
17192 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17192 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-15,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T08:34:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T12:12:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:37:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaf698f77e6c3706a6340475e8a589b84b0a219bd209750d2db7cef5be806eaa075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:39 - 12:12:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1625.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1642.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
現在開會我們來進行討論主任必須報告出席人數報告聯席會出席委員13人已足法定人數進行討論署航車限度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1643.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1664.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
審查委員沈博洋等20人擬拒反滲透法增訂第6條之1條文草案委員陳冠廷等19人擬拒反滲透法增訂第11條之1條文草案委員林旦化等18人擬拒反滲透法增訂第8條之1條文草案委員黃婕等16人擬拒反滲透法第4條條文修正草案委員沈博洋等18人擬拒 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1664.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1692.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案委員王美惠等十八人擬拒反滲透法部分條文修正草案委員李博義等十六人擬拒反滲透法部分條文修正草案委員王定宇等十六人擬拒反滲透法第三條第四條及第五條條文修正草案委員王定宇等十六人擬拒反滲透法第五條條文修正草案委員林一景等二十人擬拒反滲透法第二條第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1695.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1705.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本年的議程說列入討論事項合併巡打現在我們來介紹在庭的委員及列席的官員第一位張志仁委員黃捷委員沈伯陽委員王定宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1725.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1733.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
大陸委員會兩副主委我們內政部有常務次長請提案委員說明提案要旨我們定期待會請沈伯陽委員提案說明裡面有兩案一邊說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1766.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1794.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
謝謝主席我簡單來做提案說明這一次反滲透法的修正因為國人對反滲透法有時候會有一些誤會以為反滲透法會增加許多處罰的類型但其實我們這一個反滲透法在我在民間推動的時候最主要就是在著重已經對於現有的處罰的加重所以比如說選罷法本來就有一些處罰規定因為反滲透法針對滲透來源跟國家安全有關要加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1795.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1811.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
這一次只是在把一些本來就有處罰的行為再放進來而已近年來因為中國透過滲透的來源以及在地協力者在台灣散播謠言的狀況變得越來越多如果一律針對散播謠言處罰又會有點過廣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1814.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1827.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以這一次我們是把這一個在我們的法律裡面本來就已經有散播謠言的規範把它放進來比如說你今天針對一些農產品等等之類的去散播謠言 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1828.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1852.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
或者你針對災害相關的去散播謠言這些是本來在我們的法律就有處罰的規定那現在呢 只是說如果是中國透過滲透來源來做這些事情的時候在中間的參與者在做這些散播謠言除了本來現行法的處罰之外要必須再加重他的刑責那有一些是行政法的規定我是把它規定在六之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1853.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1872.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以只是針對這一些來做一些加重讓反滲透法的這個範圍可以變得更為明確另外也有其他的委員可能是針對類型的增加又有可能針對除了滲透來源之外針對灰色地帶的行為人也就是針對滲透來源的定義做一些擴增這個就有待其他的委員說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1875.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1884.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝我們感謝沈浦洋委員提案說明我們請王定宇委員提案說明跟兩岸一併說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1894.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1910.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝主席提案委員在這裡向委員會報告也希望能夠儘速完成初步的審查能夠送出讓國家的安全跟相關的法制更加齊備第一個本席提案的說明是有關最低刑度的設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1913.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1939.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在目前的反滲透法第三條到第五條的條文罰則只有最高刑度沒有最低刑度的規定那他會產生什麼問題第一個我們要理解國家安全或者是所有相關的這些案件呢一旦產生對國家利益的傷害非常大但是執法機關不管是檢察官檢調 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1941.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1962.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
調查局或者是警察在偵辦相關的國安案件的時候因為國安案件本身具有高度的隱密性還有牽涉到境外所以查辦是非常的不容易要達到起訴的門檻耗費的人力物力時間比一般刑事案件還要高昂如果沒有最低刑度的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1964.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1991.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
輕易的給予罰金或緩刑結案會導致威脅的國家威脅的敵方滲透收買的成本呢這個非常低廉被抓到的代價又不大導致國家安全以及偵辦體系的疲於奔命所以我本席在這邊提案我們在最高刑度並沒有調整但是應該加上最低門檻最低刑度讓涉犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1992.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2021.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
傷害國家安全的相關的罪行有一個最起碼的處罰否則收買收了錢但是輕易的一顆罰金那仍然在台灣進行相關的腐蝕跟破壞那對於我們國家民主的基礎國家的保障其實是一個很大的傷害第二個提案呢是有關這個懸掛五星旗的部分我第一個要先言明我們在這個提案修法的幾個前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2021.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2037.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第一個 經過主管機關所核准或者國際規範所允許比方說戲劇 文化 交流 國際會議活動場所所懸掛威脅台灣的敵方的旗幟相關的標語 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2040.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2065.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
並不在這個法律規範的限制法律規定的國際規範的申請許可的沒有在這一個限制的範圍第二個以他山之石別國的經驗來看韓國的國安法是禁止懸掛北朝鮮的相關的旗幟那在美國現狀來看如果你去懸掛ISIS恐怖主義的旗幟 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2066.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2093.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
或者是甚至於是相關中東特定的旗幟境外去那邊讀書的人都有可能會被遣返所以就算是民主國家對於這些旗幟的懸掛都有一定為了保護社會保護民主的一個基本規範那以台灣來講我們的立法原由是以武力威脅我國或者武裝力量與我國對峙 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2094.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2104.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
在陸海空軍刑法的第10條或者在我們刑法的徵修條文的我印象是115之一這樣子的對象列為敵國 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2106.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2134.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那這樣的敵對勢力對我們國家以軍事力量的騷擾威脅惡意非常明確卻時常以模糊意圖弱化我國人民的敵我意識以及弱化我國的防衛意志力來進行相關的滲透可以說是敵人的動作意志非常明確卻因為台灣是民主開放的社會因為種種滲透的作為導致這個界線的模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2134.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2148.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
又援引我们宪法征修条文的第五条第五项第五条第五项里面所讲的是政党的目的或行为危害中华民国之存在或自由民主宪政呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2150.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2164.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個秩序者違憲這是寫在憲法徵修條文第五條第五項這個條文裡面告訴我們在我們國家的憲法規範裡面就有對民主需要被防衛的憲法基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2165.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2188.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以民主這個體制在憲法徵修條文明定著有需要被防衛那所以根據這以上種種本席提出在公共場所懸掛或展示其代表標誌或旗幟者應取締之那相關的法則有寫在立法說明裡面希望這兩個徵修訂的條文能夠讓我們國家防衛的機制更齊備 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2194.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2213.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
讓台灣更安全國家安全跟國防是沒有政黨黨派跟族群的差別只有在國家安全的保障基礎下民主政黨的競爭經濟的發展才有他實質的依靠所以以上是本席的提案說明希望我們委員會能夠儘速通過 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2218.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2223.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝 我們感謝黃定宇委員提案說明我們將廣結委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2238.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2266.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 謝謝主席那我針對今天這個反滲透法存在的漏洞提出一個修正的提案那因為現行的反滲透法的法規對於候選人的認定是非常僵化的那導致說現行有幾個案例會讓境外勢力只要選對了時間點來佈局他們的滲透方式就可以大搖大擺的來干預我們台灣民主的選舉卻不必負擔任何的刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2267.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2291.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以呢實務上我們已經看到有兩起荒謬的判決第一個是2024年大選的期間台中有一個假民調案有一個網媒的記者加上一個學者那他們受了中共指示發布了九波的總統大選的假民調但是一審的時候法院竟然認定說因為前六波發布的時間是因為候選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2292.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2318.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
還沒有完成登記所以他不算正式的候選人就不構成犯罪了然後就判定他無罪那我想要問大家請問在登記之前發布的假民調就沒有誤導選民嗎就沒有破壞民主的影響力嗎所以跟成為候選人前跟後對於實質造成民主的影響不應該用這樣一刀切的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2319.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2336.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那另外一個是在高雄的受資助的旅遊的造勢案那這個被告呢他收受中共的利益那為特定的候選人舉辦大規模的造勢那也招攬了里長到中國接受旅遊招待那甚至在席間他也只要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2336.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2357.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
必須要支持特定的候選人但是法院卻認定說這一些活動發生的期間也是因為對象還沒有正式成為登記的候選人所以也是被判無罪那我認為這就是一個非常明確的法律空窗期境外勢力可以利用在登記前的這段非常多長達數月的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2359.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2378.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
提前進行這一些造勢提前進行這些抹黑的佈局那中共借選其實早就已經開始了那所以如果法律只有抓登記後的行為那反滲透法其實就是在告訴這一些境外勢力說你只要在登記之前動手台灣法律就拿你沒辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2379.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2394.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那這樣子等於是在保障這些境外勢力提前借選的權利啊所以我認為要強化民主的防衛韌性應該要提前這個候選人的資格的期限也就是我的提案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2395.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2417.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
只要參選人只要開設了政治獻金專戶成為你參選人之後就應該要適用這個反滲透法不能讓這個登記的日期變成是滲透行為的保護傘所以這個防線應該要往前移才能確保每一次的選舉都能在公平透明而且不受到境外勢力操弄的環境下來舉行謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2420.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2431.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝我們感謝黃學園委員提案說明我們再來請大陸委員會兩副主委的業務報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2442.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2463.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
大家好承蒙貴委員會邀請針對貴委員會審查反滲透法相關修正草案以下提出本會說明第一個中共長期對我統戰滲透有必要全面檢視國安相關法令那本會樂見各位委員提出草案進行審查討論以釐清規範界限並凝聚共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2465.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2488.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
第二 我们主张要强化前端防御与政治参与的管制严惩境外势力的渗透行为第一 本会支持强化对于您参选人等类型人员的管制措施希望能够有效阻断境外势力与出其部件防止其代理人介入我国政党运作或公共议题讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2490.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2502.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
另外公民投票與罷免權也是憲法保障的直接民權本會認同應該擴大限制相關演員受託參與提案以補強法律的視角 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2504.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2526.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第三有委員已經針對散佈謠言政黨管制措施然後網路平台還國安專庭等議題提出具體的草案那應該可以透過進一步的討論讓草案更加完善第四我們主張是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2529.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2543.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
對於反滲透法所牽涉到的各項行為應該全面加重刑責以防掛一漏萬意思就是說目前反滲透法是針對政治獻金選舉遊說等行為進行規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2547.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2575.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但是中共在台滲透的太陽很多元形態和手段層出不窮不斷出新那現行的規範是不足以因應滲透行為所以本會樂見大院委員所提關於加重刑事責任的提案然後目前目前各個提案中所涵蓋的犯罪種類是不是算完備我們認為還需要進一步討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2577.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2604.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那第五建立灰色地帶行為申報的機制我們有看到委員有提案要建立灰色地帶行為人的申報機制本會予以尊重那相關的立法先例可以參照美國澳洲或法國等等那最後面對中共日益嚴峻的侵擾和政治干預反滲透法的修正有其急迫和必要性那 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2606.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2619.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
本會將與相關部會合作 那積極配合大院推動修法協議 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝梁副主委的報告我們現在內政部有張是業務報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2627.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2648.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席 各位委員 女士 先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務的推動的關注跟指導謝謝 表達有動的感謝那我想今天應邀列席這個大院有關審查包括沈伯陽委員 陳冠廷委員 林黛華委員黃婕委員 王美媛委員及李柏毅委員等人 王定宇委員等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2649.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2659.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
林益菁委員那這有關反滲透法裡面的條文裡面總共是有十案那我請就我們本部的意見來跟各位委員做說明那第一個就是有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2661.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2687.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
反滲透法第四條的部分有關黃捷委員對於提案禁止任何人受滲透來源指示委託或資助助選對象由候選人擴及包括擬參選人因反滲透法並未就擬參選人有明確定義如參考政治獻金法針對擬參選人之定義系包括特定期間內以依法完成登記或有意登記參選的公職之人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2688.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2699.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如任本法有你將參選人納入規範的必要建議應該要明確地來做一個界定再來是有關李博弈委員等人提案有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2701.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2722.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
政列任何人不得受滲透來源指示資助委託參與總統副總統及公職人員選舉政黨初選政黨提名及競選幹部擔任罷免提議人或擔任全國性或地方性的公民投票提案人那如大院有修法共識我們本部予以尊重而至於政列違反上開情形經有罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2722.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2751.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
判决确定者不得登记为候选人已结那有关公职人员选报法第26条第4款已经明定惩犯反渗透法第4条之罪经有罪判决确定者是不可以登记为候选人那是不是有重复的规范也并请参酌那第二点就是有关王定宇委员等人提案有关修正反渗透法第3条第4条第5条部分那现行的一个规定受渗透来源指示委托支柱或从事竞助选 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2753.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2780.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
捐贈政治獻金及遊說行為之法則是處五年以下之有期徒刑應無最低法定刑之規定那委員提案修正為處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑那會涉及到我國整體的一個刑罰政策之橫評那我們本部也尊重法務部的意見那第三項就是有關王定宇委員提案修正反滲透法第五條內容有談到包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2782.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2803.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
進行配合統戰工作或具有政治目的之宣傳行為及其處罰規定又違反規定在公共場所升降懸掛展示手持揮舞境外敵對勢力或其政黨軍之代表其自標誌者處以行政法那這個並由警察機關來取締之大院如果有修正的共識我們內政部是予以尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2804.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2832.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那第四項有關李博義委員沈博洋委員等人分別提案增列反滲透法六條之一那委員提案的針對任何人受滲透來源之指示委託或支柱散播謠言或不實訊息這個範有包括災害防救法第53條第三項平均低廉條例第81條之三第二項及第三項者來分別加重其刑之二分之一或加重刑度為三年以下之有期徒刑得併科新台幣300元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2833.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2856.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
以其二組有關災害或破壞不動產市場的秩序錯假訊息之散佈大院如果有修法共識我們內政部也予以尊重第五項是有關王美惠委員等人提案修正反滲透法第八條的部分在提案內有關針列政黨跟境外敵對勢力合作為滲透行為經法院判決定讞 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2857.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2873.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主管機關應申請憲法法庭來宣告政黨解散那在政黨法第26條已經有規定政黨法政黨有憲法徵修條文第5條第5項之情事也就是政黨的目的或其行為有危害到中華民國之存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2875.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2904.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
或自由民主制憲政秩序者是因於解散來由主管機關檢據相關事證申請司法院的憲法法庭審理之那在同條25條也有規定主管機關是為審議政黨之處分事件及相關事項應聆聘社會公正人士以合一方式來辦理之那本法是不是在與甄列這個申請政黨解散的規定如有修法共識我們內政部也是予以尊重那以上報告也敬請各位委員指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2907.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2910.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
謝謝 我們感謝吳常志的業務報告其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們來進行詢問 委員詢問前原理作為以下幾點的宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2931.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2939.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
本聯席會委員會的發言時間5分鐘比較的時候我們延長2分鐘在本聯席的委員會的委員會發言時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2949.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2953.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
會在10點30分定期發言的時間一致這次的會議我們就不需要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎沒有我們就這樣可能現在我們來進行詢問請定期第一位的書策會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2986.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2989.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3000.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3018.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
委員好我們想請問一下上個禮拜中國國台辦再次擴大了所謂這個台獨頑固分子的清單又有更多人被列明其上那可不可以在這裡再一次的跟您請教這到底中國為什麼要列明這樣子的一個名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3022.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3033.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
它當然最大的目的就是要製造台灣內部的寒山效應是那它實際上也在針對一些它所 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3035.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3061.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
類型化 他要把它類型化譬如說政治人物是一個類型現在增加了這個部會首長然後來增加司法官這個類型是 沒錯 司法人員司法人員這個類型他們特別在意的就是有沒有偵辦國安案件那也不是所有偵辦國安案件的檢察官都會列入而是針對某一些他們特別重視的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3062.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3091.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以目前看到是這樣那你覺得效果如何目前看不到效果但是我必須跟委員報告就是說像他們這樣用一個國家的力量然後去宣布要制裁或是追訴個別的人士個別的人士那我想對於當事人來講可能心理上面都會有一些負擔那這也是他們想要得到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3092.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3100.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
兩副回答得很清楚也一下就掌握到我今天特別在這個質詢台上想要跟國人社會再一次強調的確實這個台獨頑固分子這樣子用來恫嚇台灣人民的這個名單現在甚至已經擴大到司法人員這是第二次把我國的司法官列名其上 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3111.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3129.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那司法官本身我相信他們不足以心生畏懼一定持續秉公辦案但是會不會發生其他的效果會不會有更多的這個狀況大家可以看到中國的手確實是越伸越長甚至到司法體系來了所以我覺得其實我們在各種法治的面向上確實應該要來防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3132.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3152.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
中國這樣各種勢力的滲透中國各種勢力的進入這是今天我藉著這個上個週末比較少人注意到的連司法人員都再次被列明所謂台獨頑固分子清單再次跟國人提出沉重沉重的呼籲大家應該要注意這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3153.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3174.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好那回到我們今天的修法來看的話那其實啊梁副我想請問一下其實反滲透法上路到現在已經是6年多了可是因為反滲透法它其實主要的目的是在禁止台灣民眾接受中國等境外敵對勢力的指示委託或資助並且12345 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3176.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3193.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
列明的很清楚只有目前在目前的法規裡面現行法裡面只有五種類型所以上路六年到現在你覺得我們現在的成效如何甚至本院也有委員直接說從民國112年到114年這麼長的期間八成以上的都其實是不起訴可見這部法沒什麼用處吧那您認為呢這部法到底還不應該存在還是我們要怎麼面對它 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3206.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3226.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我不會認為這部法沒有作用啦那有的時候起訴但是判決無罪並不代表真的無罪所謂判決無罪只是說你沒有辦法證明他有符合法條規定的罪證而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3227.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3240.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那現在的 我覺得反滲透法主要它的問題出在兩個第一個 它所規定的要件是非常的特定 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3242.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3266.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
就只有五種而已啊對 非常特定譬如說剛剛黃捷委員所提出來他針對選罷法的選罷法的部分那就是針對說你已經登記參選了是然後我如果在你已經登記參選以後然後我捐錢給你或者什麼用資金資助你那個才算但是還沒登記參選之前不算那就算黃捷委員的所講的你參選人是過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3267.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3286.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
但他還是可以再早一步再更早就把資金到位所以現在問題就是說反滲透法它所規定的東西就是說中共的手法它永遠是比我們快我們今天不管訂了什麼樣的規定它都可以從我們的規定之中找到漏洞去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3288.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3308.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以這個是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說反送中法所規定的這些罪行這些罪行其實在我們看來是遠遠不夠的因為反送中法其實它主要規定的是這些政治活動競選然後它有關社會秩序的部分它就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3309.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3323.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
它是屬於所謂聚眾鬥毆或是恐嚇公眾等等但是我們現在看到的很多滲透的類型它是叫你去製造謠言它是叫你去打人 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3324.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3344.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
或是去剖欺不只啊甚至是可以說對於我們的物價產生波動這種訊息也可以啊或者是在救災防治的時候擴大我們的災害降低政府應變的策略等等製造對政府的不信任這種都是啊所以今天委員所提出來的各種各項的罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3345.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3372.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我認為都是從這陸委會的立場來講我們都是樂觀其成但是我還是要必須提醒大家今天不管任何一個因為我們的罪行的列舉是有限罪行的列舉是有限但是中共可以叫這個他在地協力者或他的滲透的對象所去做的事情是無限的他今天如果是去對於某一個人物他要叫人去剖欺 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3373.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3399.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
他去剖欺可是這個東西在我們刑法裡面剖欺甚至不算是什麼罪但是他會造成這樣心理恐懼所以我覺得反滲透法的這個主要的問題不是在於這個法律有用或沒有用而是基於我剛剛所講的一些問題他會無法跟得上中共翻新的腳步 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3400.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3424.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那還有一個最重要的問題是我們常常在法院在判的時候他都必須要去證明說你是受到對面的指示才來做這些事可是你往往那些指示的範圍或是對象是曖昧不明的那個曖昧不明就是說他可以用他是某某公司的負責人或是什麼單位或是如何他說他不是不屬於中共黨政軍這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3426.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3452.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以我覺得反滲透法它還是有用但是我們再討論一下怎麼樣把它完善這樣謝謝副主委因為我覺得你這段話非常的完整清楚又重要所以我幾乎把時間都讓給你了但是我還是覺得是這樣就是您剛剛說的話的部分我想要再做一個整理並且強調我不認為反滲透法是沒有用處的我相信您剛剛也沒有這樣說你認為是還是有用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3453.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3471.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我覺得這一步法第一是確立我國國家的態度不容許境外等敵對勢力利用各種方法進入到我國國內破壞掉人民對政府的信任破壞社會的秩序第一個這步法是一個態度所以應該要必須要能夠完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3472.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3496.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
建構這第一個但第二個呢確實包括我們剛剛在講說反滲透法裡面我們最大的這個目標是在確保我們的選舉行為我們的公投行為也就是民主社會裡面非常重要的選舉公投這樣的意志這樣的制度是可以完整的但任何有從事實務的人都知道所謂的選舉所謂的公投那是一個非常長時間的行為不是只有規定選舉期間的那幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3499.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3523.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
絕對不是這樣的期間而已也不是你成為候選人以後才叫做選舉期間民主社會的選舉期是非常長的所以我們在執行了6年之後的反滲透法讓我們看到了現在這部法的困境因此我們要把這一個部分漏洞的部分給補起來所以才會有各個委員提出而且很遺憾的是都只有民進黨委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3524.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3551.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
今天的司法裡面全部都是民進黨委員提出版本在對期間也好對身分別也好對行為類型也好我們做了一個更明確的規定這更明確並不是並不是加強對人民的控管而是把事情建構清楚讓大家能夠各司其職各守其位我想這是很清楚的事情我舉第一個例子的話就是應該是說像我們的這本提案書裡面的第一個我 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3552.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3573.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
黃婕委員然後不是沈伯陽林楚茵和羅美玲委員提案我們都有共同簽署的像我自己也有簽署的就在六之一條裡面對於剛剛謠言的部分我們就明確列舉了哪一些法條的這些行為你不應該散佈錯假訊息我想這是很清楚的事情我也希望等一下後面質詢的委員呢不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3574.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3590.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
亂了這個主題不要把這個部分我們修反送中法又如同上一個禮拜修國安法一樣認為是在前置人民自由前置人民的行為我覺得這是完全錯誤的說法那我的時間用完了我先到這裡謝謝副主委謝謝謝謝我們感謝蘇僑會委員質詢我們家張志倫委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3606.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3615.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早是不是有請國安局陳副處長以及司法院刑事廳吳法官來吳來 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3626.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3646.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好 我先報告今天修的是反滲透法也是有關於國安相關的法令之一那根據最新的司法進度我想人民非常關心國家安全那之前社會矚目的總統府跟外交部的共諜案一審已經判決出來了那大概都是被判8年以上的重罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3647.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3671.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那現在在高等法院二審審理所以在立法院我們也正式決議要求現在國安會吳秘書長應該要自行請辭因為他是跟這個案件他是主管的部分可是我們看到這個國安會發表聲明不僅指責立法院我們的認真的監督是政治操作打擊國安團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3673.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3688.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那我們想要說的是 這個我們是監督政府的立法機關那我們需要真正來檢討的是真正被中共滲透 洩漏長期 滲透機密數年這是我們認為的政府高層的核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3689.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3714.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那這邊我們想要請教這個國安局作為主要的勤制單位那政府的核心的內部防線沒有守住讓共諜潛藏數年那現在我們是不是要請教國安局最近我們內部所有政府單位的集合機要人員的中程查核機制有沒有什麼樣的機制那是不是可以請具體的改進是不是可以回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3716.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3740.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
是 謝謝委員這個感謝委員對這個議題的關心那有關於這個需要人員這個特查機制這個是由法務部調局來負責那現在這個機制經過這個最近這些狀況那當然在各部會討論之下它已經有所精進也有將這個範圍所這個再去擴大但是細節可能要由這個法務部來說說好 那法務部法務部在嗎來 法務部參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3751.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3773.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
特殊查核的部分目前有關公務人員查核分一般查核跟特別查核一般查核就是由各機關來負責那特殊查核的部分目前雖然是由我們法務部的調查局來主責但是因為在來之前我並沒有收到這樣的訊息說要針對特定哪個部會的特殊查核的機制是不是有什麼變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3773.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3795.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我想這部分我這邊可能還沒有辦法仔細的那請說那請問這現在你們針對最近發生的這些案子共諜案內部發生共諜案你們有做什麼樣的精進行為不要講哪個單位整體來講你知道你們有做哪些精進行為嗎是共諜案如果有具體的個案發生檢察官有收到這樣的請辭基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3796.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3818.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不管在屬於二省專屬管轄的抬高檢或是各地的二省分檢其實都會立刻就會發動相關的懲查組作為另外其實調查局也一直是國安工作裡面很重要的一個角色其實大概都有按照我國的法令然後按照目前當下的情況按照上級的政策指示來加強來查核因為現在的時機確實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3819.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3829.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
不同 就這部分的話是法務部作為行政團隊的議員這邊其實都有精力在做好 謝謝 我們再請國安單位的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3830.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3856.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以本席在這邊還是要特別要講就是國人最擔心的這我們政府內部有這個共諜的滲入可是剛剛聽到不管是國安局或者是法務部兩邊好像沒有確實到底應該要怎麼做如何精進的一些方式好像沒有特別的一個討論出來的一個結果所以拜託你們後續再可以努力一下把一些具體的成果下次再質詢的時候可以當面說出來好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3858.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3877.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
是 謝謝委員指導 包括委員這個因為本局是負責情報搜集工作那相關這些狀況本局都有在滾動的更新跟加強的收集那相關案件發生之後我們也有去更新這些手法跟太陽要求各國安情報團隊來去針對這個案件的線索或情資這樣的搜報那有關訊息我們會及時提供給相關黨委來去做徵處好 那接下來我們請司法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3883.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3906.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這邊我有收到一個這個檢察機關辦理涉反滲透法案件的一個統計我們可以看到這張統計表裡面當時我們都很擔心說這個反滲透法就是我們擔心的就是說對選舉有會有算計或者是針對民眾的一些生活或者對選舉會對民主有開倒車的情形我們看一下在109年反滲透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3907.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3914.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
開始以後我們的案件從統計喔我們看到齁在這個偵查的人數來看喔從110年開始是0人111年12人112年29人 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3918.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3942.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
在去年總統大選的時候這個偵查的人數高達477人那不起訴的人數大概是359人這就是我們剛剛要特別提到難道反滲透法是就是在這個選舉期間來大量的來去抓人尤其我們可以知道說這個非常多的我們一般的里長宗教團體跟旅遊團被抓那最後是證明無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3943.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3965.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以我們在擔心就是說反滲透法是不是在選舉期間造成人民這個巨大的心理壓力跟名譽損害然後讓社會來再造成寒蟬效應那是不是可以請司法機關解釋一下說為什麼在平常沒有選舉期間這個偵查的人大概都不到50個人那在選舉期間偵查的人數居然高達400多個人那不起訴的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3967.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3980.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
將近八成以上所以這樣的情形會不會讓我們覺得說就是讓人家覺得是不是執政黨藉由這個反滲透法在選舉期間大幅的去抓人讓民眾有寒蟬效益是不是可以解釋一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3981.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3997.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
謝謝委員垂詢法院審判案件基本上是針對甲官起訴的案件來做公正中立的審理所以說就剛才委員垂詢的關於偵查這個數量的部分是不是還是請這個主管機關法務部來做回答那請法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3999.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4020.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那我這邊要說明一下其實這個跟我們法案滲透法的法律結構有關我們法案滲透法的條文裡面它所有的處罰條文其實裡面有很大一塊是在框公職人權暴力法跟中等人權暴力法裡面的所謂的選舉行為另外一個是有關刑責的再加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4021.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4037.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這裡面就有兩條至少就有兩條是跟選舉有關那也因此為什麼在選舉期間這種案子會特別多是因為在選舉期間才會有該當於這兩條的狀況出現那另外就是在選舉期間如何是杜絕境外勢力的干涉其實是近年來選舉常常的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4038.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4053.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那也因此我們在巡查的時候我們其實是會加強力道是盡量杜絕這個境外借權的可能性也因此安援會比較多不過我們講到這邊大概處理上原來都有秉持公正以及這個本於證據的立場所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4053.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4072.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
該起訴的不該起訴的我們這邊都有做一個合理的篩選以上來跟委員報告那是不是可以請法務部再說明一下因為我們看到被偵查的人有477人可是不起訴大概是359人那是不是有一些你們可不可以解釋一下說到底為什麼會那麼多人被偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4074.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4101.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
偵查的原因到底是什麼是不是說只是去大陸旅遊啊去跟大陸做交流就被偵查那是不是所以很多人說那就是選舉前一年就不要去大陸旅遊所以才不會被偵查有這樣的說法這坊間的說法謝謝委員垂詢其實針對這個狀況因為在選舉查查期間案源是多元的包括各地的有關的司法檢查機關的搜報或是來自民眾的告發跟檢舉甚至有很多匿名檢舉的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4103.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4120.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那以檢查機關這邊來講有案子來的話我們就會收辦那收辦之後我們會依法來偵辦那不過因為反正立法結構裡面大概都會有一個客觀的構成要件是必須是有收境外敵對勢力的一個資助或是委託等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4120.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4136.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以在這段期間如果是跟中國大陸那邊有任何的交涉往來其實會有一個基本的一個嫌疑在但是這樣的嫌疑並不導致會引致後續的強力的偵辦作為或是起訴那只是一個辦案上面的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4137.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4159.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那其實這個狀況到底也不是針對所謂的到大陸旅遊就一定會變成反滲透法的偵辦的當然課題不是這樣而是說在選舉查查期間事實上其實包括在國內旅遊也有可能會被標定為這是不是有招待旅遊是違反選罷法裡面相關的行為所以檢察官的偵辦方向都不會單獨是針對說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4161.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4188.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們的國人有跟中國大陸方有做交流就當然設定他是我們的偵辦對象這個倒是因為是法條的結構跟選舉查查案件的本質實案好 謝謝那最後我還是要想要拜託政府機關內部還是要把這個相關核心遭滲透的這個問題來解決那外部的部分也希望避免這個司法浪費那好好來保護人民這個民主的權利以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4192.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4198.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝謝 感謝張志倫委員質詢 請張宏祿委員質詢我先請陸委會梁副主委跟內政部常次梁副主委跟內政部常次 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4222.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4241.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
委員好其實我們今天在說這個反滲透滲透這兩個字其實是不是就是有點慢慢來沒有一次把你到位的感覺我個人是這樣子認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4243.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4265.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個他就是慢慢來然後他到時候造成原因有很多種可能增加你的恐懼可能增加你對政府的不信任我認為滲透就不是一次大規模慢慢來所以這種事情你要去防範你要去做有這麼簡單嗎我想請問兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4271.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4284.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
委員說得很正確其實我們的反滲透法它當初是根據譬如說澳洲它有防境外勢力影響法他們是用影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4287.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4314.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那所謂的influence它其實就不是一個譬如說我去放個炸彈或是什麼這樣子那那個是所謂在你的思想在輿論 在資訊等等各方面的所謂的影響所以我們的反滲透法它並不是一個它跟一般的軍刑法還不太一樣它所界定的罪行又比較侷限這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4315.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4326.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
對啦 我覺得啦我們常說啦 這個工程界啊最難做的就是抓肉啦 抓肉啦那個 吳次長 你說是不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4329.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4344.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
謝謝委員指教工程的品質很重要你就回答我抓肉是不是大家都很困難當然很重要對嘛滲透跟抓肉我就一樣慢慢一點一滴一點一滴的來你要去找到證據你要去找到什麼其實都是很困難的但 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4346.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4365.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們現在已經看到了我們的敵對勢力透過不同各種管道來對台灣進行這種一點一滴一點一滴的滲透然後它降低了人民對政府的不信任然後也製造了一些恐懼 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4366.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4380.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
像他這個列台獨啊這個份子啊列到連司法界都列入了這也就是要造成台灣人民的恐懼而且剛剛大家也有在講其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4383.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4410.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個對台灣的選舉民主制度這個介入選舉其實是非常非常的嚴重你看他不用在選舉期間他無時無刻都可以去抹黑一個人用假訊息用什麼的那你說這個能不處理嗎如果你不處理長久以來對政府的不信任感對這一個人的不信任感就會存在的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4414.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4437.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那所以今天大家在討論反社透法的部分條文修正我認為樣態很多那你要特別舉出一兩樣這個好像不大對其實也是舉得出來的但我們不能夠因為這樣然後你不去處理我不知道兩位的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4442.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4466.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我覺得委員講的是非常關鍵的其實我們小時候受的教育就是要匪諜無孔不入其實現在是一樣的而且因為隨著網際網路隨著兩岸的交流的擴大人員來往的擴大其實所謂的匪諜無孔不入比我們小時候要嚴重更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4467.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4492.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那所以這部法律它的目的就是要去怎麼樣去阻止這樣的這些影響去抓漏但是問題是在抓漏就是說因為很多的行為它必須要去能夠抓得到說這個行為跟對方的授意是有關係的所以現在的這個不管調查單位還是這個檢查或是法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4493.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4507.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
在這個部分他遇到都是遇到很這些困難取證上的困難但是不能夠說因為有困難所以就不做這是不行的 是我只單純 我請教兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4508.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4524.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
有人在說比如說現在有一些宮廟會去中國進香那你如果單純進香你自己出錢你單純進香去到那邊有人去跟你講一些什麼話什麼你回來你沒有做這些事情你會不會有這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4526.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4554.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
如果你是單純跟著人家在找你去賺一個賺一個說不用錢 去賺錢我的前提是出錢的喔 自己出錢的喔自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嘛那我們現在比較特定的就是說人家在找人家說不用錢不用錢把你交抬譬如說10天8天但是不用錢或者是說你只要出機票錢但是到當地時數 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4556.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4578.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
全免那這種就一定是有人在出因為天下沒有白吃的午餐一定有人出錢這個出錢的人是誰而已對嘛 我的意思就是說就要很清楚的讓民眾知道就不會有大家的疑慮你如果是自己出錢的不會有問題你明知是備受招待的去到那邊人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4580.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4592.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
在招待的場所裡面跟你講怎麼樣什麼台灣不好什麼你回來又替他宣傳這當然有可能你就會誤觸法令這個吳次長是不是謝謝委員指教我想這個剛好宗教是歸內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4597.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4612.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們對於台灣的一些宗教團體其實負入的話我們都會提醒他就是說人家要救你去 要替你出錢結果他的目的是什麼還是自己要小心那我們也希望宗教應該是自由但不是漫無目就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4613.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4637.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
中了人家的招應該這樣講那我再請教內政部剛剛也有委員說如果這樣子接受是不是選前就不要去哪裡我想請問一下不管是在如果在選舉期間你接受任何的這種招待除了違反反滲透法之外你還沒有違反選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4639.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4658.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我想公職人員選罷法規定選舉期間的時間其實應該要避免借選然後也避免受到對岸的一個干擾不是 只要是你選舉期間不管在國內旅遊或是出國旅遊只要你付了很少的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4660.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4683.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
有對價關係是不是就違反選罷法都有對嘛而且應該不只選舉期間吧只要他有預備犯他只要做這些應該都要受到只要影響到選舉結果的行為都要對嘛所以這是不是兩件事情兩件有關聯的事情你本來就違反選罷法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4685.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4714.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
對不對 所以跟這個反滲透法你去中國地方或什麼我覺得是兩件事情吧兩件獨立的事情但是又是有關聯兩件獨立的有關聯那你就一次觸犯兩個法啦 對不對是啊是嘛 所以我覺得啦有很多樣態大家都可以討論的啦那我覺得大家好好來討論啦這個應該要把台灣的安全漏洞給補齊我認為才是重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4715.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4742.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張鴻路委員接受我們現在徐宇臻委員質詢謝謝主席我們請內政部吳次長跟法務部謝參使 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4744.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4748.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
保護部參事擔任政部副市長市長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4753.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4776.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
市長其實從反滲透法立法以來在適用對象跟構成要件的明確性上本來就有很多討論的空間那這次委員提出的修法方向無論是涉及你參選人的定義跟範圍還有試圖將錯假訊息與證券交易相關法規的連結或是針對政黨解散的程序的一個設計行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4777.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4797.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
都提出了可能會違反刑罰明確性跟罪行相當性或與現行法規跌床駕屋的疑慮所以本席今天針對部會報告中所點出的具體的法理爭議請兩位能夠秉持專業向國人清楚地說明這些說法的方向是否適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4798.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4824.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
首先請教這有關委員提案建議將女參選人納入反滲透法第四條的適用對象但是我注意到法務部在書面的報告中已經明確的指出參選與否在正式登記前屬於浮動的一個狀態目前對於女參選人的表態意願並不存在任何可供客觀判斷的法律標準而內政部也坦言反滲透法中的現行條文對於女參選人並無明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4828.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4854.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以刑法與準刑法規範一向強調罪行法定原則與法律明確性的原則所以如果法律連你參選人自何時起算認定標準為何都無法的清楚的界定那請問一般的人民如何預見自己的行為是否違法而行政跟司法機關又將依據什麼樣的標準執法與裁量呢請回答好 謝謝委員我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4855.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4878.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
在這一次的一個修正的內容部分對於你參選人的部分他是並沒有很明確不過當然參考包括政治先進法其實裡面都有一些可以做公參考那我是覺得這個可以讓各個委員來做個討論如果把它定義的明確當然是可以用對就是我剛講的其實就可能很多法規是疊窗家屋既然在政治先進法那邊已經有確認了為什麼在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4881.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4894.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
反滲透法又再加入進去那請問一下謝參事您的意見謝謝委員垂詢基本上因為這部草案裡面新增的所謂的女參選人的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4894.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4924.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
他其實比較大的會引致的疑慮是他沒有做女參選人的定義那女參選人這四個字其實在我國我所找到至少有三個地方有一個是剛剛無上其道的政治獻金法不過政治獻金法它的女參選人定義是專門for這個就是為了政治獻金的收受而規定的所以未必能夠完全套用但在這邊並沒有針對這樣子的另外還有兩個地方一個是在公職人員選舉罷免法裡面其實自己也有這樣的字眼然後他在立法理由裡面有做女參選人有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4924.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4951.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
立法的說明放在旅遊欄裡面那最後一個是在廣電廣電法的實行細則我想其實很多地方都有定義我現在要表達就是說其實人民對於這樣子沒有確定性的定義來說的話他事實上可能不曉得自己什麼時候可能誤觸法律誤觸反滲透法所以在沒有明確的規定之前其實也很容易製造寒蟬效應那另外呢我們也可以看到就是說在我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4954.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4966.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
有關這個委員提案增訂第八條的規定政黨若與境外敵對勢力合作為滲透行為主管機關應申請憲法法庭解散但是內政部的報告已經都講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4966.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4992.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
政黨法第26條早已經就規定了所以呢主管機關本來就可以檢據事證申請解散在政黨法就有了那謝三世現行的法規都已經完備了那為什麼還要增訂一條重複的規定而且法務部也點出一個關鍵現在的現行法是主管機關得申請而提案版本卻改成應申請這是否會剝奪行政機關依法裁量的一個空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4993.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5019.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個空間那這樣跌床架屋的修法在法制上有必要嗎是謝謝主席的垂詢我先補充剛剛的有關你參選人的定義雖然沒有但是是可以在大院審查的時候事實上是可以在裡面增訂明確的定義就有可能會符合明確性原則我先補充說明另外就剛剛委員垂詢的有關草案第8條增訂有關申請憲法法庭宣告政黨解散的判決的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5019.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5033.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
因為在我國的憲法徵修條文以及我們的政黨法乃至於我們的憲法訴訟法其實都有就政黨宣告解散的相關的程序跟要件做規定對 所以這樣子是不是有一個跌床駕屋的修法你政黨法就已經規範了 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5034.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5052.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
是應該是說這些東西已經有明確的規範然後這次的定義當然我在猜想委員或許是提案委員或許是認為這件事情很重要有必要再與重申不過對於重申規定我們都還是會見情說其實包括這一次的修法我看很多委員還有提案所謂的灰色地帶行為人 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5053.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5079.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
還有有關這個相關的各種法律事實上我們看到不管是內政部或者是法務部對於很多的提案都有諸多保留的意見所以我認為行政院其實應該要負起責任就是提出院版如果行政院認為有需要的話這樣才不會讓法治混亂因為像剛剛提到有針對很多不同的法會有相關的抵觸那鑑於這樣的部分的話我們覺得在這個行政院提出院版之後呢也應該要召開公聽會然後廣邀 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5081.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5095.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我們的學者專家大家一起共同來討論匯集更多的意見以求周延那另外根據法務部的統計在114年到114年涉嫌違反還有反滲透法的共有583件從111年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5099.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5119.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
分別起訴4人、18人、97人跟8人目前判決有罪確定的有5人無罪的有7人其中112年平均的判決刑度是3個月114年平均判決是6個月所以換言之超過八成以上的漢奸最終都沒有被起訴定罪率更不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5120.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5139.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
低到不到1%那在這樣的低起訴率跟這個定罪率之下請法務部說明這500多位在選舉前夕被約談被搜索甚至被媒體公開貼上共諜滲透著標籤的這些基層的這些民眾他的程序正義跟名譽授權的問題請問要怎麼樣子來 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5142.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5170.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
他們要怎麼來彌補是 謝謝委員垂詢不過我這邊先跟委員報告就是說檢押機關其實沒有拒絕收案的權利在選舉期間其實各個司法警察機關所提報乃至於民眾所檢舉所告發的案子我們這邊必須要依法偵辦但所謂的偵辦並不當然說每一件都會搜索每一件都會約談其實是看個案的證據狀況以及它必要性到哪邊去其實在這樣子的最後的結果剛剛我提到這樣其實已經明確的顯示出 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5171.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5187.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就是你們查的很多 500多件成案的少 定罪的更少所以這是不是已經造成就是爛數還有變相的寒蟬效應的結果而且會讓人民心生畏懼剛剛一直有人提到說會有共諜 會有匪諜可是事實上現在我們看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5188.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5210.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
共諜匪諜都在執政黨的不管是總統府不管是國安局不管是這個外交部因為執政才有機密可能洩露嘛那你在這個在野黨哪有辦法去洩露機密哪有辦法去做這樣的事情所以針對這個部分我覺得針對反滲透法我覺得還要充分的討論因為不要製造人民的這個寒蟬效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5211.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5235.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我只是去大陸旅遊可是我現在要非常擔心我回來會不會違反反滲透法這是一般人民的心聲我們也接到很多上的投訴因為我們也沒辦法去告訴他們對 你這樣去不會違反反滲透法因為確實很多不明確而且沒有辦法明確界定的一個刑責所以在這邊也要請我不管是內政部或法務部在這個部分我們在針對這樣的一個修法應該更為嚴謹 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5243.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5249.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
謝謝我們感謝徐毅臻這席我們請黃絕委員質詢好謝謝主席我們先請法務部法務部參事委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5268.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5295.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好 參事好 剛剛其實很多委員都有提到說反滲透法上路到現在六年確實面臨到高起訴低定罪這樣的狀況那我在這邊想要請教的是就是這麼多高比例是無罪的那你認為現在是不是法律上要如何跟上這個實務上的這個落差首先先跟委員報告應該是我們的起訴率也算低啦我們是低起訴率 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5296.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5319.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為案子進來我還會篩選只是篩選之後送到法院這邊來審理的案件確實有一些是無罪案件我們也會檢討不過蜥蜴它的內容大概會有幾個原因第一個有一個原因是因為證據蒐集不易的問題因為這些反滲透法的案子一個是牽涉到你跟對岸所謂的敵對境外敵對勢力之間是不是有所謂的資助或是委託這些關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5320.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5337.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那這個證據有時候存在於海外或是不是那麼曖昧是曖昧不明的不是那麼的清晰在證據證明上有一個斷點另外就是這種起訴的反送中法案件很多都是綁公職人員選舉罷免法的會選行為那會選行為本身證明的門檻就很高對於投票行為投票意向 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5337.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5350.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
跟這個所收受的代價之間的對價關係事實上本來就是實務上比較難證明也比較容易被拆解的一個點這是一種方向就是出於證據跟法律的構成要件本來就不容易證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5350.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5371.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
第二個是確實有部分我們發現確實是因為在南部我們看到案例是因為法規他明定的必須是在參選之後的參選人那你參選人的部分確實有部分是判決是以此為理由認為說因為當時的階段只有你參選人而不是參選人所以因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5372.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5390.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
構成壓界不該當而判決無罪的狀況大概出分大概有這樣的原因存在好 謝謝參事的說明所以其實在我的提案裡面特別把擬參選人也放進去那剛剛其實我有委員也有提到說認為擬參選人的定義不明那我在這邊請教一下參事請問在政治獻金法裡面是不是針對擬參選人有一個定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5394.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5417.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這邊跟委員報告剛剛有先初步說明在我國法治上至少有三個地方對擬殘血人的定義一個是剛剛委員所提到的政治獻金法另外一個是在公職人選舉罷免法相關的立法的理由裡面說明裡面有提到第三個就是衛星廣電法實行細則裡面也有規定有所謂的擬殘血人目前的狀況是因為這三種定義都不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5418.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5440.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那我想各自有各自的立法目的那如果今天如果要在反滲透法裡面去把這個階段擴張到擬參選人這邊的話我們這邊的建議是如果沒有定義的話它會有模糊不清的問題所以如何把它正確的做一個definition把它框起來符合最新法律原則我想是之後建請大院要審議的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5441.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5456.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 謝謝參事的說明所以在這邊我要強調的是其實現在反滲透法確實我們應該要再精進那才不會說目前這樣子定罪率很低但其實滲透的行為一直都在那再來我們請陸委會副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5466.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5490.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
是 委員好好 副主委好其實我認為反滲透法目前的問題是法律的漏洞非常大才會讓境外的敵對勢力就像剛剛副主委講的他們可以不斷地找漏洞不斷地找我們法律上可以鑽的地方那變成說他們可以明目張膽地進行滲透他只要知道我們的定義明確之後他就找這一些尚未定義的地方進行相關的滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5492.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5509.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那滲透的定義其實就是不斷的找你沒有規範到的地方嘛所以其實真的無孔不入那這就是我們擔心的地方也認為說不能因為這樣就束手無策所以我們必須要不斷的精進再精進那我在這邊請教副主委三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5510.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5524.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
三件事情喔因為其實目前看到幾個判例啊我看到的判決書法院有幾個案例被說無罪的第一個他們說這個很多接受招待旅遊的團費是因為受到一些促銷啊時速等級的影響所以沒有一定的市價標準所以就算 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5528.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5550.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
中國這邊有落地的招待但是如果團員認為自己付的機票跟行政費是自費旅遊的話那他就不算是這個統戰所以就沒有被放在這個反滲透法定義裡面的這個招待的行為裡面那第二個他們是說法院的理由是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5550.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5564.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
因為兩岸常常這種村里長的參法行之有年了所以並不是為了選舉才設的這種交流所以也被定無罪那第三種理由法院是說因為中方的這種官員在參會上說兩岸一家親 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5567.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5595.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
他只是閒聊只是場面話只是社交禮儀所以這個對團員來說也並不構成反滲透法的理由那請問這三以上三種這種法院的見解我們陸委會認同嗎從我們陸委會的立場就是反滲透法執行的越徹底有效越好但是我們現在碰到的問題就是他最後都是要到法院判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5596.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5624.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那現在所有每一個地方的法官他對於證據法則的採納的方式他不一定是一樣的或者是說他是用很嚴格的罪行法定主義的採納方式那所以他就變成是很多我們看起來在社會通念上面可能就是有問題的但是他就會變成沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5625.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5652.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那所以為什麼我有看到陳冠廷委員他有提出那個國安法國安專庭的這個概念也就是說我們是不是有可能就是法院的部分它特別是它特別針對國安案件它的刑事訴訟的規定或是證據採納的這個方式和一般的刑事案件是不是應該要有一所不同或者是說它要有一個特殊的進行方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5654.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5678.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
到目前我們國家對於國安案件其實是按照一般的刑事訴訟法在處理的所以往往調查局的或是國安局的他們花了很大的力氣到最後到法院就變成是無疾而終所以委員剛剛所講的這些案例我們都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5679.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5704.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那這些案例呢我認為是最後要回到法院那這個我們在反申訴法或是國安法裡面不管我們怎麼實體法裡面我們不管怎麼規定你最後都是要都是變成是法官在判決的時候他會他們按照他們自己的認定方式去處理所以我覺得可能陳冠廷委員的那個提案我們可以仔細考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5705.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5728.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
好謝謝副主委說明我也認為說目前的司法見解跟實務上的落差非常大那為了避免跟現實脫節我也認為接下來這些構成要件必須要精進第一個也不會造成民眾說不小心誤觸法網第二個也讓我們可以更明確的在法律上可以去定罪那最後我要建議一下我還是認為目前最好的方式是揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5728.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5754.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
包括揭露這些金流包括接受這些代理人的行為模式包括接受這些代理人的身份所以揭露是第一步所以我還是希望接下來有機會的話我們陸委會可以跟各部會大家來討論一下是不是應該進行代理人法相關的討論或者是說這些身份上的揭露金流上的揭露是不是應該進一步的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5755.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5781.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
是 謝謝委員的這個指教那這關於反社同法因為這部法律它的主管單位是行政院是行政院所以我們各個部會其實到目前為止並沒有一個提出質疑的那如果相信經過立法院的討論之後我們帶回去我們也許會提出一些這個自己的方案出來好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5785.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5813.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請王美惠召委主席我們這裡內政常事跟中選會跟我們大陸委員會兩副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5816.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5822.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
在這裡我先跟你們探討一下我們自國委裁判的時候我們兩副組委在記者會的時候有講到一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5830.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5838.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
強行中國會介入我們10億的選舉會更加嚴重我要跟副主委說這不是強行而已強行這兩年可能要結束了這是每一次選舉的時候中國一定會介入的在這個規定當中說實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5858.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5861.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們不要說沒良心的話啦 大家的選舉也這樣總統選舉也這樣 立委選舉也這樣 官司長選舉也是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5869.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5872.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這都是越來越糟糕了沒有今天一個反滲透法有的人說這又修法沒幾年 又一百公九年 修了到現在也六年了還要修什麼 因為時空背景不一樣 時代也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5889.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5891.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
還對中華民國的台灣的大壓尤其選舉的時候那種概念是非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5903.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5906.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
為什麼今天我會講到這氣氛因為這個選舉如果有阿強、謝路基、賴主理的位、好人齋、整條北省的學務位都沒有辦法出頭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5921.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5926.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
主要你可以聽阿強的話聽阿強要什麼給他什麼他還可以來破壞台灣民主自由國家的選舉啦在這個過程當中我是怎麼會說叫中選會開因為大家這次我們的想法就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5946.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5972.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們如果去選委員會那裡去那叫做好選人現在我們的爭議就是以候選人在這個規定當中我相信很多所在包括選舉的包括管議員、市議員現在都已經在做完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5976.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5981.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
總選會你們知道嗎?副主委你們知道嗎?現在到目前為止是大家都在做了這要怎麼去認定?他現在的活動,他現在的錢你們要怎麼去認定?要怎麼認定?這個好選人,你們要怎麼認定?萬一他說,哇,事態性嚴重啊這樣他不敢去總選會定期,也有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6007.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6020.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那有的你若不參與,有這個犯案在他那時,他是越做越糗來,總學會你回答我們是說這樣的事,你要怎麼去拿這兩個的問題出來,來不要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6029.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6056.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
公職選罷法就候選人他並沒有這個定義性的一個規定但是公職選罷法就競選活動的規制他有規定幾個這個期間一個比如說選舉公告發布後比如說就民調的規制或是說這個選務人員在選舉公告發布後不能從事一些違反選務中立的一些情形有一些有的是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6057.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6077.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
競選活動期間就是投票日前10日那從這樣子的規定的一個期間然後來就這個個案的一個事實來認定他的行為是不是有違規說實在的啦 今天要九十輪輸啦沒有你啦 本席的回答這樣喔本席的大聲啦 你應當回去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6079.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6081.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們要怎麼做才能做得更好我還不知道選舉十天前要做什麼你說的是現在的進行式我們是想說未來的選舉有幾幾年的財務要選舉要怎麼處理候選人跟候選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6103.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6105.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
在這個過程當中 我想問一下你可不可以同意一個馬智偉小姐馬智偉小姐她在2023年發生她如果前一陣子我們2024年來拍時間告知而已再來過一陣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6130.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6134.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們跟他 因為我們有掌握他拿到阿公的錢在這個過程 我就是說 你要怎麼去認定我還不知道選舉10天前 不可以做選舉要做什麼這也就是說 三位你們也知道現在是要怎麼 臨近議訪議會今年11月2月要怎麼處理還要緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6158.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6163.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你認為 大家也一樣跟候選人的時候 選舉之後要乖乖跟不選舉的時候來聽阿強的聽阿強的字給我們這是嚴重啦包委員 這個可能跟這個有意參選的這個候選人他可能有一些是涉及反滲透法的形式責任的規定那這個剛剛就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6188.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6198.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
法務部可能警察官的一個權責那有些可能是賄選或是等等那有一些如果是涉及行政違規的部分那這是選務機關的一個權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6200.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6206.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以在這裡 我知道因為我們每一行有每一行他們的責任在哪裡這就是你們的政府委員會的時候也要去注意這個不是你如果我本身回答說港澳電機要十天你的未來你自己也要做得好對不對大家一分錢收出來是每一單位都可以啦 這些的問題犯罪的問題來講解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6230.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6238.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
不然大家在這裡開這要做什麼反滲透法對中華民國的台灣是非常重要的不是要懲罰什麼人的自由啦在台中我告訴你在台灣這件事我們大家都看得一清二楚這是會害台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6253.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6260.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
在這裏面本身要跟我們內政副市長說到我們有款滲透法破壞社會秩序的範圍當中有的是黑客 有的是什麼來 我們司法部來司法部主席拜託給我一點時間 抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6284.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6298.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
來 蘇阿布 本席要跟你說因為大家的時間都有一點本席要說像現在選舉如果在網路在那裡說的有的沒的大家的風態我們做人中的跟之前的政府都不一樣跟人不一樣這要怎麼處理 蘇阿布 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6313.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6326.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
是副處長嗎來請副處長回應主席說明這個如果是在相關言論我們在個別的法規都有相關法規處理那抒發部會在技術的部分協助各個部會處理這樣的問題來 本席的來賓 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6331.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6343.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他今年會在外面選舉那有人在網路說跟這個就等久以來就都在報廣場還要選什麼議員 要選什麼管理長還在網路這樣跑的時候你要如何去做來來 蘇阿布要怎麼去擋路來要怎麼去處理 要怎麼去訂車來 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6359.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6375.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
報告員這個部分我們可能會跟相關選舉事務負責的單位共同來研究他來研究要研究多久人家研究之後有一個好的人才我研究之後有一個好的人才就算了這個就好了啦所以我們要時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6380.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6390.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
不是說你又有事情要來簽名簽名才一月二月過那個年齡就算了啦但你後天的時候是要你一月二月申那都不好啦報告委員這個網路的部分我們一直都有在跟各個部會進行那這部分面臨接下來沒有啦 進行都沒有實際去做沒有時間觀念去查好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6411.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6415.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
到目前為止 從安委開始選擇就在那裡那裡那裡那裡所以這個很快要處理 要研議 研究的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6432.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6446.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
拜託一禮拜的時間給我再來我問我們內政部部長在這兩天如果對我們中華民國有損害他的組織政黨在當局以來都是替阿強阿講話和打壓中華民國的台灣到目前為止你們內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6459.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6485.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
有提出再一檔嗎我想謝謝委員的指教我想那個有關目前政黨裡面大概有一個統促黨到現在目前為止你怎麼處理跟委員報告統促黨因為我們的審議委員會過了之後就是要送憲法法庭憲法法庭現在要怎麼處理憲法法庭目前委員的人數也不太夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6486.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6488.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
對啊 重點就是這樣啊要處理我們社會法庭 我們庭的跟這個國家 這個立委是要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6497.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6505.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
該做的 該派人的要處理就處理你什麼理念都沒關係 為了中華民國 如果不準 一定不能這樣嘛所以我們要去克服 可是你剛才說的明明知道他有罪 明明知道他要解散了 但是我們沒辦法解散 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6520.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6527.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
因為社會法庭都要動筆是不是這樣來是啦 跟你們怎麼做跟委員報告 我想當然那個只要是違反政黨法相當規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6534.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6543.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那照程序我們會先召開審議會我知道啦 召開審議會後就是送憲法法庭啦憲法法庭要受理跟審議大概是這樣那現在就是我們要點啊點我們要等 問啊問就是沒辦法繼續讓他們亂是不是這樣不然你還有什麼辦法可以處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6560.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6572.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
報告委員 我也只能尊重憲法法庭的運作啦謝謝 很無奈 無奈 無奈謝謝 謝謝我們也會招委 謝謝感謝 感謝李博弈委員我們這裡李博弈委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6590.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6595.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
謝謝 我有請入委會梁副主委請梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6602.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6621.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
謝謝副主委我們上個禮拜一在這邊審國安法同步我們在審國安法的同步我有問你那你有掌握到相關的訊息非常及時的就是我們在審國安法那國台辦就片面宣布制裁劉世邦部長跟鄭英耀部長但是少了少講了一個檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6623.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6634.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那中國在處理包含片面的宣布直接說這是台獨頑固分子之外就會入罪於他們的反分裂法 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6635.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6658.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那再來指名我們的辦國安的檢察官這個也要直接入罪他們的成都還是可能也是反分裂跟成都嗎那再者今天我們在審的這個反滲透法其實台灣的民主就是我們是靠選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6661.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6685.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
各政黨有推出候選人的政黨包含執政黨或者是大小在野黨也好或者是有其他理念的政黨也好有一個政黨在境外最關心我們的選舉的其實無非就是共產黨共產黨的借選它其實根本就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6686.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6714.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
不是自己跳出來候選人沒有辦法自己跳出來當候選人而已他透過各種的方式來想要意圖影響台灣的選舉所以我們今天包含我提出來的這個第4條第5條第6條第11條等等的我們都希望降低我們隔壁的惡鄰居想要介入我們選舉的各種可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6715.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6742.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那我覺得一個法條我想要放一個例子進來在馬英九時期的陸委會副主委張顯耀副主委當時在2015年的時候是被國民是被當時的政府以外患罪去辦他對不對那當然沒有辦成嘛因為他很多市政剛剛有講過那可能都在境外 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6743.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6768.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
但是他在2025年的時候被起訴用反滲透法這個法律重不重要 重要這部反滲透法他在2025年的時候把前陸委會主委但是也是現任中國國民黨智庫執行長張顯耀起訴了起訴的內容有什麼第一個他寫報告去給國台辦說他會勸國台明簽和平協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6774.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6796.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
第二個他有錄音檔為證第三個他發布了很多的假民調都是郭台銘會領先侯友宜而且他明明知道侯友宜已經被中國國民黨提名了那他還意圖用這個假民調來換掉侯友宜嗎那他背後是誰反滲透法是不是就要處理這件事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6798.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6825.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
如果沒有反滲透法的話這個怎麼處理當作一個政黨在借選嗎當作一個共產黨公然的在幫郭台銘服選嗎如果沒有反滲透法的話張顯耀先生應該不會被偵辦因為他的行為就變成是說他跟國台辦在討論哪一個人適合來選台灣的總統而已就這樣所以反滲透法的必要就是說我們對於這類企圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6827.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6855.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
跟中共有關係的人來介入台灣選舉的時候我們至少有可以追溯的一個法律但是至於最後能不能具體的定罪能不能具體的定罪那個還是要看法院法院的怎麼怎麼判決因為我覺得這個案子這個案子我覺得有一些有一些行為是已經很清楚的行為在起訴書裡面看得到行為是很清楚的可以看到這個人他到底在做什麼到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6856.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6871.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
民眾在電視上看到誰要配誰 誰要配誰的時候原來是背後有北京有國台辦在這邊下這些指示你沒有這些偵辦你也看不到國台辦這些指示你以為只是臆測最後還有一點其實我們在第4條裡面提出來的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6880.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6893.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
增加的 修正的這些條文裡面把這個 擬參選人放進來 然後另外把政黨初選 政黨提名放進來很遺憾 還沒看到國民黨的委員可以提案 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6894.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6910.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
依照如果依照國民黨黨主席在選舉的時候郝龍斌跟趙少康的指控中國借選他們應該要提出來啊所以他們應該提出來他們就是被共產黨影響到的啊副主委你又沒有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6911.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6931.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
關於政黨的選舉或黨主席的選舉要不要規範我們黨內是有黨內初選但是我們提的我們是沒有幫中國國民黨提說他們的黨主席選舉應該要防止中共借選應該要把它放進來才對不過以前的選罷法也沒有規範各個政黨的黨內初選後來是有擴張到規範各個政黨的黨內初選 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6937.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6964.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以也許反滲透法的話這個跟我們今天要講反滲透法的精神不一樣在哪裡你剛講的刑法選罷法沒有沒有我另外講我舉例刑法你說選罷法那我另外舉例刑法如果傷人他當然會受到刑法的制裁但是他如果因為他的言論被北京指示他被打了 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6965.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6988.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們主張這一個行為應該要加重刑責為什麼因為他被傷害不只是他的身體他還傷害到台灣的民主跟法治所以我覺得今天的反滲透法為什麼要把這些釐清重點就是在於他不只有傷害不只有恐嚇甚至他有可以叫說黑幫等等的這些行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6989.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7005.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這些一定要必須要受到反滲透法的這些約束但經過調查我們最好可以掌握具體的證據那我們才可以非常明確的告訴國人我們正處於什麼樣的環境我們要注意哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7006.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7030.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
是委員有提案而且事實上我們現在有看到一些案子他被指示來台灣所做的事情不是什麼影響選舉或是什麼他可能就是針對某一個人的言論然後他指示某一個黑幫的成員去恐嚇甚至傷人或是跟蹤他或者是潑妻或是打人類似這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7031.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7048.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那這個東西到目前我們反滲透法還沒有具體規定我有看到委員還有其他委員有提案那我覺得這個都是值得討論的對 我們主張這不只傷害個人人身它還傷到台灣的民主法制我們必須要入法 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝李博義委員質詢我們請黃建斌召委質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7067.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7071.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
謝謝主席 主席我們有請法務部跟內政部請法務部內政部市長好 參事好我想今天是反滲透法修正的這個審查那本來想要保衛國家安全是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7090.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7111.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
都是朝野共同的目標但是每一個法律條文都牽一把動全身我們絕對不能侵害到我們人民的基本權利那更不能成為特定政黨操作意識形態用來追查老百姓的這個武器我想看這次的反滲透法的修正有一個非常奇怪的地方就是沒有行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7111.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7128.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那本期仔細看了各部會針對民進黨立委版本的修正意見其實就可以了解到說為什麼行政院沒有提出版本因為各部會都明顯知道說許多法條的修正條件跟現行的法規都有互相抵觸或重疊的疑慮尤其是我們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7129.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7156.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
都不斷的表達這個見情在左那代表對於修法存在許多不同的意見那所以如果我說萬一倉促的修法恐怕對國會很基本的權益造成非常大的傷害因此本席也認為如此知識體大的修法如果執政黨執意要修行政院應該負起責任儘快提出我們的院版那立法院才可以跟我們院版一起來並案來審查我想這是一個執政黨如果要修法應該有的基本態度也是對我們國會的一個尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7157.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7184.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那就在上個禮拜 網美會召委安排國安法的審查的時候我們當時行政院還有民進黨立委的修法版本中打算增訂這個國安法第四條之一只要政府認定網路上的內容是假消息錯誤就可以要求網路平台的業者刪文刪掉他的帳號甚至把民眾各自交出來這個完全就是侵害到民眾的網路言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7184.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7202.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我想不只是國安法行政院之前提出這個社會秩序維護法的修正草案同樣也有嚴重侵害到人民自由的疑慮我想只要政府認定有仇恨性的言論就可以三五跟三戰號那簡單的來說這兩個修法的結果就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7203.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7229.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
只要政府覺得有問題甚至看得不開心就可以處罰民眾完全沒有一個明確的標準這是行政濫權那這是為什麼本席要呼籲這次反這個反滲透法的修法應該要完這個院版的這個草案因為民進黨最近提出的這個修法都存在許多重大的爭議甚至被各界質疑是要推動網路戒嚴或是要跟這個人民的這個自由權益相關的法律這要小心謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7231.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7246.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那這個是為什麼上週我們會招委排這個玩法的修法的時候因為各界的聲音非常多所以爭議也相大我們大家達成共識就是由國民黨跟民進黨各辦一場公聽會凝聚各方的共識再來進行逐條的審議那 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7248.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7266.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我想大家都很清楚記得說反滲透法制度法律當時在立法的時候就引起社會非常大的這個爭議因為這個有前置這個言論自由跟限縮兩岸交流的嚴重疑慮那當時因為民進黨是大多數那多數可以強行的闖關那先前也有委員提出一份法務部統計的這個數據嘛2024年大選期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7270.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7285.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們違反這個反滲透法還有選罷法高達多少人416人那結果偵辦結果是有八成不起訴跟無罪那這代表這個法律耗了相當大的這個偵查的資源那結果大多數都是沒有結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7286.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7310.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這恐怕會造成國人的寒蟬效應因此這邊本席要在最後的強調法律是要確保國家安全跟社安定維護中華民國的主權及自由民主的憲政秩序我們絕對不能淪為政黨用來鬥爭還有追殺異己的武器反勝鬥法的修法絕對不能因為意識形態而衝擊到人民的基本權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7311.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7320.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那如果執政黨要這麼想要推動這個法律的修法的話那請行政院盡快推出版本我想這才是負責任的態度以上謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃憲編召委質詢我們請吳啟明委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7337.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7345.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好 召委一位同仁請我們國安局我們的陳副處長還有我們內政部的副處長好 兩位處長針對因為網路的詐騙包含手機高度的普及今天我們修的反滲透法的部分條文的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7363.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7393.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那民眾大家都知道以前過去我們曾經修過但是已經時空背景都不一樣已經也過了五六年那現在是AI的時代也高科技的時代那現在的詐騙的手腕都是非常的先進你像在是Meta的詐騙在我們網路上大家都可以看得出來那未來我們對我們國家的安全性 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7394.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7415.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們要怎樣去做防範現在是整個防範的系統要怎樣來賀值畢竟現在在11月就大選了那地方選舉會不會又過成境外勢力的介入這是本席比較關心的那是不是請我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7416.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7427.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
法務部 國安局來看你們掌握到的Meta他們那個詐騙的數量有多少有沒有赫茲有沒有逐年的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7429.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7446.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
是 跟委員報告針對委員所關心今年關於選舉的狀況本局會有相關的專案來因應網路上流傳這些爭議訊息因為我們比較關注爭議訊息影響國家安全的部分像我們去年2025年我們就掌握了231萬余者的爭議訊息那也有發現231萬余者的認知作戰爭議訊息那我們也掌握了4萬5千多筆的假帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7454.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7481.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那相關的狀況我們也有詢問專案機制通報相關機關來做查處那也有請相關的社群平台業者來做下架動作那委員所關心可能涉及到年底選舉的部分我們本局會持續協同各國安情報團隊來加強掌握這部分狀況來及時應處李昌鮑跟委員說明但是我們國安局我聽你所講我們就是有查獲但是你要賀紙你有沒有懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7484.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7498.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
只不過是下架而已那這樣 報告員如果涉及到惡假害我們也會請我們司法檢查機關比如說調查局或刑事局來去針對這個來去做依法的追訴跟查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7499.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7521.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
因為我們最主要是要怎樣來嚇阻因為Meta的數量是太過驚人這對我們整個國家的安全對百姓的詐騙都是一種非常嚴重的傷害這是我們本身我們公務單位就是要積極的去嚇阻這種事情的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7522.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7547.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這是我們現在都比較積極的來做的所以今天修正法的部分條文修正案本席是非常的認同這是對我們未來整個國家的安全性我們還是要秉持的趕快去讓我們民眾的傷害降到最低這是我們應該要做的好 那我請我們內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7550.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7569.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
針對我們未來的選舉這個網路的信息不正確的信息我們要怎樣來做處理好 謝謝委員的指教我想選舉期間的時候因為如果是公職人員選霸就依照公職選霸的相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7570.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7595.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
如果一旦有這種網路或者AI 聲委等等的那目前來講的話我們都是說只要是警察機關我們這邊去依照他的見識結果我們會要求業者在兩天內就要下架然後限制瀏覽跟移除那另外就是說也跟委員報告像這種的話我們不管在總統選罷法或者是公職人員選罷法其實都有談到有散播 播放 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7596.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7623.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
然後讓候選人因為譬如說身為影像等等而犯選舉誹謗那這個是照規定是七年以下的徒刑而且還可以如果是意圖盈利還可以加重其二分之一那我想在這個部分其實我們目前包括公民的素養我們這邊也都是有來透過希望由教育跟宣導來讓民眾有思辨能力那也把這個相關的法令規定都會跟大家講那我想剛談到像這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7626.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7634.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
選舉然後藉由網路的那這個部分其實我們警察機關就是剛剛國安局有談到我們相關的部會其實都有在共同來做一個追蹤跟處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7635.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7655.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
好的 因為現在已經是AI時代你早期五六年前那時候反滲透法的條文修正條文那時候AI還不是那麼盛行那現在這幾年是AI的竄起那以後我們就AI的辨識這應該是重中之重是好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7660.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7676.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
謝謝 感謝吳啟明委員質詢我們家羅志強委員羅志強委員不在羅志強委員不在羅志強委員不在 我們家劉喜婷委員質詢謝主席這個法務部有請請法務部參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7699.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7722.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
早安我們今天召委排定反滲透法的相關的詢答當然是因為很多民進黨委員有提案就是說反滲透法目前沒有辦法填補所謂的國安漏洞所以大部分提了很多不管是國安法庭的設置也好或者是加重罰則等等的一些方向希望透過修法來提高國安防護的一個等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7724.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7748.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
問題是這樣子的這個去年3月賴清德總統其實就召開記者會講說有所謂的五大統戰威脅還有賴17條17條因應策略其中就有國安法上禮拜討論的反滲透法兩岸人民關係條例等等的一些修正案那行政院從去年3月到今天大概8、9個月快一年了嘛快一年了10個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7749.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7771.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
國安法上禮拜當然是因為有願版所以重新進行了詢答的程序那後面還要再召開所謂的公聽會那我今天看今天排反滲透法的相關的一個質詢但是看起來還是都只有民進黨委員提案的相關的一個版本而我看了一下各部會提出的這個書面報告很多對於委員提案的版本大概也都有一些不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7772.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7781.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
說要建井再著或者是說並不一定有立法的這樣子的一個必要那我想請教一下這個行政院版會推反滲透法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7784.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7804.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好 謝謝委員 垂詢因為反勝通法本身它是屬於行政院的法規不是法務部管的法規不過法務部身為行政團隊的議員如果行政院這邊有希望我們這邊來做協助研議或者是說我們這邊本域之選發現有什麼條件需要建議的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7807.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7830.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
應該會有相關啟動研議的作為但是因為目前還沒有收到行政院明確的指示所以我們目前是還沒有具體的條文出來好 這到底哪一個單位來如果要有院版的話是由哪一個單位來處理的國安局嗎 還是內政部 還是陸委會三個一起上來好了你們討論一下會不會有院版好不好我們要聽具體的答案好 副主委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7839.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7865.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我想經過今天的討論之後各位委員的所有的提案我們都會帶回去包括不管在野黨還是執政黨的立委的意見那我想執政團隊應該會有一個方案出來這樣好 內政部呢大概都一樣啦因為這個反省團內容其實很多部會啦我想這個對啊 就很多部會嘛當然如果願有指示我們都會來配合好 來 國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7867.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7893.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
發委員如果有需要本局提供相關資源或意見我們也會請你協助好 謝謝問題就是這樣這些法案其實在我印象中第一會期就已經進來了也就是說各委員的民進黨委員提案的版本就已經進來了那其實去年3月總統開記者會然後一直到現在今天各單位的回答還是說如果願有指示我們來做一下調整今天會帶回去研議等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7894.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7918.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那這樣其實問題就來了嘛到時候會不會今天詢答都答完了之後到時候又跑出一個願板然後大家又要重新進行程序這我們希望大家審慎一點前期的溝通既然要做總統都有指示了就仔細一點來做來副主委還有話要補充嗎就是各位委員今天講的各種意見我們都會拿回去參考所以請各位委員今天多多指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7919.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7933.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
就是說就內容的部分多多給我們意見好不好謝謝因為看起來默契有一點點不太好啦我提醒一下要修當然是可以要討論當然大家就健康的來討論好不好我們還針對法案的內容我們還在做一下做一些想法這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7935.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7954.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
因為你現在問題是這樣因為現在沒有行政院同一個版本所以每一條每一條要細問時間也不夠用啦那我就直接講這個東西過去被大家詬病的地方其實就在於就是說你很難真的去變成定罪上的困難嘛包含剛剛副主委都講說起訴但判決無罪不代表真的無罪欸這還蠻誇張的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7956.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7972.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我當然知道你的意思是要強調定罪上的困難但法律明確性等等相關的保障他也是要兼顧的我想大家是很清楚的那關鍵就是在說你很難證明什麼叫被滲透嘛對不對以實務上來講大家去講說比如說中國大陸啊最常被大家拿來講所謂的滲透啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7974.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8001.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
就是實務上 比如說中國大陸啊 透過台商啊給予政治獻金 找到政治人物就聽差辦事這就聽起來言之成理但那其實非常去脈絡化的一種說法為什麼這樣說呢因為這樣說那很多人恐怕都要被辦啊 對不對比如說這個我們有紅孩兒事件 對不對這個即便大政黨不同 講法不一樣可是有沒有在中國大陸有經商的事實恐怕是有的 對不對那這樣經商的事實有沒有成為選舉的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8002.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8007.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
你很難證明有可能有有可能沒有所以到最後都鬼打架不管是哪一黨哪一派 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8008.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8032.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就到底有滲透沒滲透通通講不清楚這也是為什麼我們今天在談反滲透法修正的時候之所以不管是國安法反滲透法良人民關係條約大家都強調明確性原則的原因就在這個地方因為你一不小心就會跨過自由的紅線嘛造成的壓迫我們如果給予行政機關太大的裁量空間對不對讓梁副主委變成法官這樣子不太行啦對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8033.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8049.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
給予太大的裁量空間反而是對於司法公信力的再一次的打擊所以即便我看了一下今天大部分的修法都說我要有國安法庭我要加重罰則我要怎麼樣來做處理可是問題是都沒有觸及到這個法案核心的問題也就是你到底要怎麼去界定這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8050.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8078.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那到了最後很有可能你修完之後還是因為無法界定而無法定罪那修了等於白修或者是說你因為界定的時候觸犯了政治的紅線他遭到很多困難這就是為什麼我今天一定要提說如果要審這個法案一定要有院版一定要一個明確的基準如果各委員有各行其事利益都良善本席願意相信這不同黨派都沒有關係但是核心的問題沒有辦法被解決也沒有統一版本來做討論的時候恐怕會有一些困難這是本席要做的第一個提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8078.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8094.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
第二個是有關於這個國安法庭我想要問一下 梁副主委內政部應該可以回了但是這個法務部跟司法院好不好國安局可以回法務部跟司法院我要問一下國安法庭的部分這個是這部法案目前有的版本裡面比較敏感的地方啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8095.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8118.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
大家都覺得說 一樣啊這聽起來 喔對啊國安相關的案件交給國安相關素養的法官來判對 一樣言之成理 但它同樣有實務上操作的問題我想請教一下法務部跟司法院現在民進黨委員在提案說明等等都有講就是說你現在違反國安法相關法案的這個犯罪最後都輕判了事你們同意都是輕判了事這樣的說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8123.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8143.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
謝謝委員追尋那我這邊先檢驗回來後面可能要請司法院先生補充首先就草案的第11條質疑的立法理由裡面有提到刑度的分析那這個是應該是根據本部在網路上有公開的相關的統計數據那這個當然是客觀的不過因為我這邊要補充說明的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8144.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8171.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個客觀數據的解讀你必須要放在它是一個新的法所以它起訴也都是在最近這幾年很多案子其實還沒有確定都還在路上所以裡面包括了剛剛有委員提到的桃園的某民眾被起訴的案子以及南部也有好幾件其實都是重判的刑度事實上現在是上訴在最高法院之中這邊可能就這個數據的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8172.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8192.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
要補充說明 因為還沒確定 所以沒有納入統計所以其實也沒有都輕判嘛 對不對最近幾個 比如說共諜的案子 其實也都有用國安法 七年八年以上 對不對是有區分情節的嘛 好那現在民進黨委員也擔心啦 我想也是善意提醒啦就是說現在刑事法官恐怕缺乏國安相關知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8193.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8215.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這樣子的一個 我姑且講提醒你們認嗎 你們覺得現在的法官司法院也好 法務部也好 從你們的角度現行的法官缺乏國安的相關知識嗎這司法院回答 法官嘛 對不對謝謝委員吹詢那辦理國安軍事案件的法官其實現在都已經有專庭或專股的辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8216.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8241.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
而且每年至少從109年到去年每年都有國安研習會的專業課程的培訓甚至去年114年還一年有兩次的研習會的培訓分別是食物界跟學術界都有相關的教育課程所以法官基本上都已經具有相關的專業了而且一年至少要有12個小時的訓練課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8244.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8269.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
還有剛剛委員所問到是不是都有輕判本院當然就尊重法官的審判權的行使譬如說在去年114年來說地方法院反滲透法有三人都是判到超過六個月的刑度甚至高等法院有一人判到超過兩年的刑度所以未必都是所謂的輕判的狀況以上就簡單回覆委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8273.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8301.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好 所以你剛剛我簡單講就是針對國安法庭這一部分其實你們已經有專股跟專門的訓練也有在辦課程嘛 對不對是的啊所以我想如果單純只是哪怕只是題點的角度你講說缺乏國安知識的專業訓練我覺得好像對司法院也有一點不公平好 我拉回來講這就是為什麼嘛就是之所以行政院一定要有一個明確的態度的原因就在這個地方嘛很多時候認知不一樣委員會提案恐怕是這個利益良善但是實務上你在行政端其實並不見得有這樣的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8301.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8318.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那在政治上面由於國安法國安法庭可能是這部法裡面最有政治爭議的部分因為你大家想到國安法庭的時候不免就想到納粹人民法院的歷史對不對因為當初可以本來理論上應該要重判但我不可得所以我要有專門的一群人去做專門的審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8319.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8340.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
然後到了最後一個不小心跨過那條線他其實就變成一個濫權變成一個打壓人權跟破壞法治的這樣一個狀況本期還是要把醜話講在前頭如果行政端這邊沒有辦法統一口徑把一個明確的版本弄出來大家針對這個版本去做有效的討論的話那很有可能到最後又陷入這樣一個政治的爭議裡面我本期是認為期期以為不可啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8340.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8364.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
當然我們都贊同強化一些反滲透相關的一些政策也好法制面的相關一些作業也好但我們一樣這跟國安法的修正一樣謹慎謹慎再謹慎啦好不好希望行政院到底會不會有版本這個可能你們會後要提供一下說明啦要不然這個要不要審下去恐怕也是蠻麻煩的一件事情不管是對於我們來講在野黨的委員來講或者是對於召委排案來講希望你們加強一下默契好不好好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8369.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8371.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
謝謝 我們感謝紐西蘭委員質詢我們要困國奮戰 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8686.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8690.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
來 我們繼續開會 我們家生保養委員質詢謝謝主席 那我有請這個陸委會法政處處長 周處長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8715.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8733.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
委員好你好那今天前面我已經有做過提案說明了我這邊其實就不多說那在這個呢不過還是稍微再提一下就是說我們這個反滲透法這一次的這一個修法在六之一的部分是針對一些既有規範的這個加重然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8734.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8754.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
後面有一個這個比較特別一點就是呢這一個違反個資因為之前有一個狀況就是說有滲透來源然後他來到立法院是要蒐集我們各助理還有各辦公室的這個資料這個其實說真的你要說他是國家機密大概也很難說是公務機密大概也沒有但他畢竟對中國來講是有情報就是重要的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8754.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8772.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以在那一個狀況之下我們的法規範是有所不足但是我接下來想要問一點就是說因為之前我們在民間推的時候最主要是在推這個代理人這個代理人法其實我覺得以名詞來講現在大家也可能不容易理解我覺得代理人法可能比較好的說法其實就是揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8772.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8789.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
就是說讓大家知道這件事情那反社動法比較多是一個事後的懲處那目前來講我們兩岸條例可以看到就是說33條之一就是這一些事情涉及政治的內容非經各該主管習慣許可他不能夠做涉有政治性的內容他必須要報 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8790.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8817.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這一個呢其實是某種程度它其實算是一個揭露事項因為它必須要經過主管機關的這一個許可但是就是說它的規範的這一個範因為它的那個範圍看起來非常的大然後它並沒有那麼的類型化所以就變成說呢如果我們要去來規範這個相關事項的時候可能會有一些不足的問題那我目前日前是有看到內政部它有特別提到就是落實這個揭露制度就是宗教團體赴中國交流資訊的這個公開專區那 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8821.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8839.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個他其實並沒有這個強制但是目前這樣的系統已經出來那我想問目前來講就是說去中國交流因為我們之前是在講這個立委去中國交流應該要揭露嘛那我們先不要講到層級那麼高我們就講說普通的這個宗教的交流目前呢以陸委會的角度來講這些事情揭露的這個程度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8841.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8856.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
跟委員報告那目前的部分多數還是由這個主管機關內政部他透過公開的訊息他們主動來做蒐集來做揭露對如果靠當事人本身自己的這個意願的話當然不會這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8857.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8877.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
而且那個揭露的這一個內容如果說他揭露了結果跟我們後來真實的狀況是不符合的他有什麼裁罰或什麼等等之類的目前沒有目前都沒有所以就是說因為我覺得對中國來講就是說交流這件事情他可以去運用這些交流形成統戰的這個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8878.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8902.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
像之前我們就常發生這種體育的交流體育的交流對國人來講聽起來很正常去打打棒球去玩玩扯鈴聽起來好像沒有什麼但是後來我們才發現後面好幾個共諜案它既然就是從比如說扯鈴的交流開始它在趁這個交流的時候去吸收我們的扯鈴的教練然後再藉由去滲透我們的軍方然後取得我們軍事的機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8903.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8923.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
但他從頭到尾原來在一開始在辦那一個扯鈴相關的活動的時候目標竟然就是要滲透我們的這個扯鈴教練所以就是說我們會認為是正常的交流對他來講不正常所以如果我們事先沒有辦法防範事先沒有辦法知道這些交流的內容他見了誰有沒有可能簽了什麼東西的話這個對我們來講一定會有規範不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8926.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8941.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以現在能不能夠把這個揭露做得更好我覺得這是應該未來蠻重要的一個目標我們這陣子國安法其實修法已經開始慢慢在推動了那今天也有很多反滲透法的這個修法那這個修法大部分還是比如說他去參與了這個統戰的活動我們可能應該要怎麼規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8944.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8966.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
國安法裡面他除了發展以外他如果去參與組織的話我們應該要怎麼規範他大部分還是就是他都已經做了做完之後我們說這個不行這個要被處罰但如果能夠在他做之前我們就知道這個有風險這也是陸委會一直以來在做的事情國人賦錄的時候去警告他說你可能會有這個風險你什麼事可以做什麼事不能做 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8966.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8994.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
但我知道第一個就是我們目前的法規範不可能叫每一個人來中國然後到來跟陸委會報備這是非常困難的事情第二個就是陸委會的量能可能會不夠這可能是需要增加預算但是我們目前的這一個預算審查的方式很難讓陸委會有更多的預算來做這件事情但它還是一個大目標所以今天藉由反社交法的修法我覺得要討論這個內容我看大家意見當然可能會各自不同對於處罰的高低比例原則什麼等等之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8995.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9021.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
但我想要提醒的就是這個完了以後往下一步我們應該要有更多的這個揭露制度那因此如果陸委會開始要做這些相關的要來申報然後你要檢查然後事後還要看它到底揭露的內容到底是對還是錯到底跟事實符不符合那個量能是要提高的量能如果要提高需要多少的人員然後需要多少的預算我們再往下一次下一個年度的時候希望陸委會能夠也把這件事情考慮進去是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9026.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9042.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
跟委員報告一下現在我們的特定的身份人員或公務員如果要經過聯審會的話基本上他去大陸的話我們是要審查您所提到的一些資料我們這次陸委會提的兩岸條例的修正草案裡面第九條裡面針對民選公職人員的賦錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9044.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9071.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們也訂定了公開介入的一些規定希望委員能夠支持對 沒問題這個也是我被擋了非常久的一個法案之一那我知道有一些變成是他今天要如果要報的話有一些他不是屬於剛剛要到聯審會他可能要跟原籍官但是跟原籍官那個原籍官在認定的標準是什麼這可能也很需要陸委會提供標準不然的話那個原籍官可能他完全不知道自己應該要做什麼事情那就變成說他的法律空在那邊雖然還沒過啦但是如果過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9072.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9085.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
他到底要審查什麼 他要準備什麼資料這可能也是需要你們提供標準如果會來協助各機構沒問題 那就我先問到這邊 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝 我們感謝沈伯陽委員質詢我們請吳斯亞委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9095.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9095.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9112.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9138.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
來辛苦大家了這個磨高一尺道就要高一丈反共諜反滲透呢國安法案需要修好修滿下一頁而且我們的修法呢絕對不會是先求有再求好我相信內政委員會的素質應當比我們司法法制高很多我們不應當有先求有再求好的這種心態我們所有今天反滲透法所提出來的法案我們都要嚴謹的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9140.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9150.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
讓國安到位那這個是我整理出來我們國安局的代表在這裡國安的刑案起訴人數其實是兩年半內標了6.5倍在2024達到最高峰 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9155.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9182.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以說違反的法規就有國安法反滲透法路外空軍刑法國家機密保護法國家情報工作法還有刑法的內容緩判罪2024年是182案起訴那個別類的當然就是我們今天國安法還有反滲透法是TOP國安局的代表我的數據應當是正確的這是統計於你們的官方資料在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9183.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9203.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
而犯國安犯罪的被告的身份從傳統我們認為現職的軍警或是退伍的軍人為大宗現在也更多元化了因為中國的滲透無所不在一般人是政黨成員的幕僚台商還有幫派 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9203.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9226.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
都已經成為國安犯罪的被告身份也代表他們的犯刑被繩之以法所以我們可以看到不管是從案類的攀升兩年內來攀升2.5倍然後到犯罪被告的身份逐步的多元都告訴我們我們需要修法來回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9228.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9256.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那這個會期因為我在司法法治委員會我每個月都會有共諜的專報那既然在野黨的委員這麼關心共諜的案子那我們就要回應在法治作業啊立法委員不是只排專案報告然後來這裡就責為難官員然後沒有具體的作為所以反共諜滲透就要具體的行動就是國安法案下一頁這就是我們提出來的國安法治的架構下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9257.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9282.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
今天的反滲透法全部都是民進黨委員的提案1234567899個案子藍白的委員在野黨的委員0版本就回應我剛剛說的反滲透反共諜我們就要回應在立法院的立法委員的職責就是修法或是立法下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9283.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9309.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那非常遺憾黃國昌委員呢今天人到美國去了大搞畢業旅行去了針對重要的反滲透法的修法他沒有來其實過去他在擔任時代力量政黨立法院黨團總召的時候他是率先提案反境外敵對勢力併吞滲透法副主委您應該研讀過他過去的法案嘛對不對我有看過我有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9310.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9328.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以他過去的方向也是我們現在要補強精進的方向不是嗎基本上非常一致但是黃國昌最會雙標跑到美國去了今天沒有來審查下一頁那我問內政部的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9330.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9348.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
次長這個是這段時間我一直困擾的冒用我的信箱去威脅對於恐嚇要攻擊總統府啊松山機場101啊我已經報案了六次這是跨年這段時間連光國慶日那個時候還十幾次我都報案你們也都在偵查有沒有查出來是境外嗎還在查應該這個警察署會比較了解好趕快辦因為都是用簡體字的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9360.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9387.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這就是國慶日的那一波好我要用這個是說如果用言論只是在鼓吹暴力用暴力的威脅我們都要繩之以法我都需要報案那麼危及國家安全的用言論來支持武統支持中國犯台這當然也不是言論自由所允許的嘛對不對下一頁檢察總長也已經說了立法規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9389.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9413.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對於對敵效忠的還有要檢討法規的灰色地帶以及言論自由非沒有底線在台設統戰的言論都將受罰如果鼓吹犯罪都要吳斯堯要一個案一個案去提告我不縱容這些暴力那當然對於要對台灣武統的這些暴力完全是零容忍的不要雙標所以我們的修法非常的一致喔夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9414.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9435.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我今天有機會在內政委員會就教於各位因為我們上週在司法法治委員會針對陸海控軍刑法24條修正的時候要加重降低罪責於法院那天我沒有機會問到梁文傑副主委我基本上都支持我們要提高不盡其責降低者的刑責這些都該做 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9436.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9450.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那天在野黨委員有一些非常荒誕的比喻因為法條的內容是說以言論舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式對敵人效忠的表示我們增加了這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9452.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9480.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
在野黨委員一直說這非常抽象這樣子文字非常抽象會是文字獄但是如同我剛剛說的如果對於這種暴力言論攻擊公共設施都要嚴正以待去繩之以法那為什麼對於國安的相關的內容尤其降敵或者是拍影片替對方宣傳這些在野黨的委員認為可以放手呢下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9481.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9502.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那我就教於副主委喔軍人的忠誠義務是大法官釋字430號非常清楚的闡釋而現行軍人的忠誠義務若被違反只能夠用貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪來處理所以這法制要補強下一頁這就是非常有名的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9504.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9527.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
陸軍的上校向德恩遭中國吸收開始收賄2019年開始而且簽署了投降承諾書這是非常具體的一點都不抽象但是我們只能用貪污治罪條例的收賄罪去起訴他下一頁而這些搭配中國來拍攝願意投降解放軍的照片的這些人也只能夠用收賄罪來起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9528.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9556.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以說副主委你在這裡可以清楚的告訴我們雖然這不是今天在內政委員會的主題但是陸海空軍刑法也是一整包的國安法案你可不可以說明一下陸委會的主張陸委會的主張很清楚就是這些凡是這些漏洞我們都應該補起來你特別是我講更具體的像這個向德恩的案子你看到的只是表面的一個但是你每抓到一個後面就一定有一串 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9557.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9583.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那前兩天還有南部軍團也有一個同樣的案例同樣也是被檢方起訴我想國安局在這邊很清楚就是說類似這種拍影片向中共宣誓效忠然後說一旦戰爭的時候我不抵抗甚至我要這個倒戈相向的這樣的具體的案例在軍中其實現在是一個危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9584.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9612.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以我們這個修這個刑法其實是完全是有具體對應的案件要處理的而不是隨便處理 而不是隨便修一修的這樣子好 謝謝副主委喔所以因應其實這些行為都是現在進行式就像你講抓到一個後面都是一瓦啦一粒肉贓頭後面都是幾瓦啦我們如果不趕快補強了國安法之路漏洞陸海空軍刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9612.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9616.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
具體的增加降低的這些作為我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9617.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9643.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們真的很難很難向中國這些滲透的行為來宣戰所以今天在場內政委員會有非常多的部會都是國安法案的主責的部會我們就是堅持為國家的國安我們拼上最後一塊的國安拼圖其實不是一塊好多塊的國安拼圖大家一起努力我在司法法治委員會我們在相關的法案入海扣除刑法或是未來的軍事審判的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9643.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9661.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我們也會全力的跟大家一起合作加油 辛苦了 謝謝梁文傑沒有拿水杯上台謝謝 我們感謝吳思堯委員質詢我們家高金素美委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9669.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9675.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
謝謝召委有請陸委會副主委內政部常務次長還有數位發展部的副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9677.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9704.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
在你們三位還沒有上台之前呢我要跟大家說明的一件事情也要告訴大家的是沒有人不愛這塊土地但是呢 現在有的人打著反滲透的旗號實際上是在惡足兩岸正常和平交流而我們看到的現象是只要到對岸交流就被一路追殺到司法程序結果呢 定罪率只有三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9705.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9723.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
最後被抓的不是有系統滲透的人而是那一兩百萬個正正當當跟對岸做經貿往來的台商動輒得救現在還打算進一步的擴大到政治追殺的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9724.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9735.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們看到有一些立法委員提案的方向最大的問題不是要不要防滲透而是把防滲透做成管人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9737 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9755.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們看到的是處罰範圍一再的擴大從候選人擴大到您參選人然後又把政府的手伸到了網路平台只要我們的政府覺得有危害國家安全的可能性就可以做行政制裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9757.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9770.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我當然認同 國安是可以要強化的但是呢 絕對不能夠變成執政黨想要怎麼認定 就怎麼處置我要先請問一下 速發部的吳副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9774.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9789.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
吳副處長你們要平台移除限制瀏覽然後要業者交資料究竟是哪一個機關有權決定要業者交出哪一些資料依據是什麼門檻是什麼誰核准誰負責怎麼去做請你簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9795.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9812.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
跟委員報告一下現在如果平台交資料是個別的法規例如說像性侵害防治法或者是一些兒少的案件那就由衛福部的執行單位調取相關的資料或者是由警政單位依法跟平台調取相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9812.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9840.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那平台依法提供或者是不提供都有相對應如果不提供的話才會有相對應的好啦 你不要浪費我的時間其實你要講的就是我們其實呢 只有增訂一條同時要處理這麼多事情但是呢 蘇發布你們自己的報告你們到現在 你們還在互推剛剛你也講到 主管機關請問一下 人民是要怎麼樣依照這麼樣的一條法規來遵守呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9841.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9850.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
近期的小紅書被處置而社會大眾根本不知道原因是什麼這正是我們民眾現在最擔心的地方我們完全不知道標準在哪裡政府只要用一句基於國安輕輕的帶過而人民的焦慮仍然是沒有辦法解決的現在我們又有委員要提案增加所謂的灰色地帶的行為的制裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9868.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9896.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
陸委會你在報告中也提到尊重建立灰色地帶行為的申報機制是能夠有效補強民主防衛機制的我要請問一下梁副主委什麼叫做灰色地帶行為人具體的定義要件是什麼哪一些行為算 哪一些行為不算灰色地帶行為人就是說譬如說你在正式參選或是正式向監察院申報之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9897.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9923.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那你這個在有意參選或是還在醞釀參選還是在或是在幫人家抬轎的這些人這就要到灰色地帶的行為好很好 梁副主委你說到了不只是所謂灰色地帶行為你們根本都講不清楚你們這次還要把觸角伸到您參選人您知道嗎連內政部他自己的報告都承認法案裡面根本沒有您參選人的明確定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9925.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9939.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
標準長什麼樣子完全說不出來請問這樣的概念是要怎麼執行報告委員您參選人其實在查會的時候就知道因為查會的時候他不會只限於說你是參選人他在查會之前參選人之前他就會查了你回去看一下內政部的報告好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9950.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9976.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們現在看起來執政黨你們根本不是在補所謂的漏洞你們是要用更模糊的罪名要擴權然後讓檢調變成政府的打手你們隨時就可以出手抓人讓人民在法院之間疲於奔命坦白講就是要管住人民的嘴綁住人民的手逼大家閉嘴然後把整個社會推向更恐懼 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9977.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9981.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
而政府你們一再說由於所謂的境外敵對勢力散播謠言還有不實的資訊破壞了人民對政府的信任我真的不這麼認為而且絕大部分的台灣人民也不這麼認為我們看一下多年以來我們的政府從疫苗的購買口罩的危機雞蛋的危機到最近對等關稅的議題還有我們的軍購的延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10004.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10005.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
甚至連我們非官的防寒衣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10009.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10031.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
人民對我們的政府早就已經出現信任危機了啦是政府你們的施政一再的錯誤讓人民再也難以相信我們的政府了而我們的政府不在人民的生活上面需要積極的回應人民的要求你們只是一昧的以所謂的國家安全做理由來限縮人民的基本權利我想民心只會離我們的執政者越來越遠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10037.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10039.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
人民要的就是非常的簡單我要吃得飽 我要穿得暖但是呢 執政黨你們做不到你們一再地用所謂的亡國感來轉移焦點你們只想讓人民閉嘴我們來看一下這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10053.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10069.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
2026年世界不平等報告指出了台灣最富有的10%的人口掌握了全台灣61%的財富金字塔頂端的1%的超級富豪就佔了我們台灣的27%而底層的50%的民眾我們僅僅只剩下4%的財富請問一下我們政府有真正在面對這些民生問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10083.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10100.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
如果我們的政府把力氣都用在處理異己然後做政治清算每一次執政不力就搬出所謂的國安危機來作為掩飾最後只會讓人民更加的不安讓民主更脆弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10101.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10109.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我要再說一次國安不是口號民主也不是擺在檯面上的裝飾品政府應該要做的是要守護的是全體人民的權利跟生活而不是執政的方便我覺得在場的大家我剛剛以上說的那些話請大家好好的思考而不是讓我們的政府執政不力轉移焦點謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10135.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10141.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
謝謝我們感謝高金素美委員質詢我們請李坤成委員質詢謝謝主席我們請陸委會 梁副主委梁副主委 陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10160.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10183.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我很好副主委好這個根據我們的反滲透法的第二條這個有對於這一個境外敵對勢力滲透來源還有這一個機關的組織等等之類的都有做定義嘛對不對對那我請教一下副主委根據反滲透法的規定那國安局之前有提出一個報告利用黑道幫派地下錢莊 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10185.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10212.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這個掩護公司公廟團體民間社團這個五大管道來滲入這個台灣那請問一下那這些是不是也是反滲透法要所規範的一個對象是 但是他可能是可能是第二層或第三層可能是層層下達指令就是滲透來源下面的還有境外敵對勢力所屬組織機構或其派遣之人這個算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10215.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10226.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我認為是算的啦但是在證明上面不太容易對 這就是問題所在我們明明知道說中共滲透的很嚴重那這個國安局的報告裡面他也說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10227.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10250.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
他透過這一個 國安 勤工 統戰部門透過退役軍人 現役軍人 政府機關 輕鬆組織下面的這些管道來進行滲透那我們也看到了這一個相關的報告就是說反滲透法施行到現在6年那檢查機關累計起訴的127人那判決確定有罪才5個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10252.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10264.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
平均的刑度只有三個月到六個月那這等於是說滲透的情況這麼嚴重那但是為什麼我們按照這個反滲透法所起訴的人會這麼少那有罪的會更少 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10268.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10287.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
應該是說他的要證明就是說剛剛有講說第二條因為你必須要證明說他的這些行為是受中共指示或是派遣之人但是往往在這個環節裡面是比較困難譬如說我舉前立委羅志明的案件好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10289.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10307.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們看到的資料是它上面確實是由對岸某一位人士指示他做某一些事情但是因為沒有辦法證明說對岸這一位某一些人士他到底是不是在中共的黨政軍職務裡面他到底是站在哪一個位置或是具體職務但是我們這邊的檢調單位也不可能發文 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10312.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10328.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
過去中共那邊說請問這個人是不是你的哪一個單位的什麼職務所以就變成說你最後沒有辦法證明那個指示的來源他的身份所以往往很多案件都是因為這樣子而無法起訴這樣所以這個我剛講說這個其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10332.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10359.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
它不是實體法的問題就是說我們實體法定的不管怎麼樣在包含的再多的範圍也好或是什麼它最後會遇到這個核心的問題就是你無法起訴這樣對好 那你說不是實體法的問題但實際上法規範就遇到這些問題沒有錯好 那你剛才舉那個例子我再舉個例子好了講這個馬志威是馬志威他是這個用無黨籍身分來參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10360.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10379.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那他一審的時候他只有用違反各自法他是到了二審的時候才用這個反滲透法然後判刑兩年多所以你看有這個落差他為什麼一審的時候是用違反各自法那二審的時候可以用到這個反滲透法那之間落差在哪裡這個落差就是說他必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10381.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10408.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
二審的時候他認定說他的這個資金來源對象確實是中共所派遣之人所贊助的資金在一審的時候法院不這麼認定一審的時候只認為說馬志文你確實有收到錢但是我沒有辦法認為我沒有辦法認定說你所收到錢的來源是中共或中共所派遣之人但是二審是這樣認定的那所以就是認定上面的問題沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10411.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10420.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
對啊 那所以我們今天要修這個反滲透法是不是一樣也會遇到這些問題咧因為我看各個委員當然都很關心國安的問題被滲透的問題我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10424.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10440.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
各位的委員都很關心那很多意見我們也都會參考那但是最後我們還是遇到這個法院他在採取他的證據法則到底是怎麼樣就是說如果他是很嚴格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10443.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10466.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
譬如說要採取跟一般刑事案件的證據法則顯然現在在國與國之間的關係裡面你很多事情是沒有辦法這樣處理的我是會建議說我們的各個機關可以去參考其他國家的情報工作或是怎麼處理類似相關的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10467.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10485.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那個案例那而不是說用一般的刑事刑事案件或刑事訴訟法來處理因為就會遇到說我們的這一個檢調非常努力的去查也查出一些證據出來但是到法院那邊的時候就像副主委你提到的說他們很難去證明說 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10486.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10512.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
中間的這個連結性是不是如何去證明然後這個證明的確是受過這個中共他所指示的然後這個關係變得很難去連結就變成說在法院這邊的問題他通常會通過好幾層然後中共的情治人員他也不會說我就是某某單位的他一定可能說我是某個基金會的或是某個公司的然後公司下面還有公司還有各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10513.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10532.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
掩護性的單位所以這個就變成造成我們這邊在查查的或是說在建立連結的時候是非常非常困難的所以就是說他只要中間有一個斷點出現了就變成說我們的法院去證明說他的確有這個連結性就會變成出現問題了沒有錯最後一個問題問你就是說在過年之後那現在這一個國民黨準備跟這個共產黨舉行這個國共論壇那陸委會這邊有沒有什麼樣的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10546.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10553.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們是提醒不管哪一個政黨都是中華民國的政黨不管哪一個政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10554.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10573.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
都要捍衛中華民國那去跟中共不管哪一個單位談任何事情都要站在中華民國的立場然後不可以去涉及到我們兩岸條例所禁止的一些什麼政治性協議或是等等這樣子那 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10576.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10593.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我覺得各個政黨國內朝野各個政黨在面對中共的時候立場是要應該要一致的是好OK謝謝好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝我們感謝李坤正委員質詢我們這裡王定宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10594.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10620.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
王定宇委員 王定宇委員不在王定宇委員不在我們再來請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在 陳冠廷委員不在我們再請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們再來請習新穎委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10630.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10640.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
謝謝主席本席有請陸委會梁副主委內政部吳次長還有法務部的謝參事三位 謝謝委員好好 謝謝今天我們在這裡審查反滲透法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10658.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10681.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那我想兩岸局勢緊張是不爭的事實那中共對台灣的影響無孔不入我們也都很清楚但是我們跟對岸的差別就是我們是民主法治國家這跟對岸最大的不同所以我們的所有的法令我們應該要堅持法治請問三位認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10683.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10710.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
認同 對所以今天審查的這個法案我看了各部會的報告那特別是法務部提出了很多關於法律明確性還有罪行相當的疑慮我認為這不是推託這個是非常負責任的表現我們非常肯定所以我們立法院的職責就是我們要把法治工程做好 建設好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10711.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10740.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
而不能修出一部定義模糊可能會被濫用甚至最後還被憲法法庭宣告違憲的法律所以我今天的質詢我要從法治國原則來出發我們對反滲透法我們從來沒有反對而且我們也覺得有其必要但是你這部法律你不能夠定義模糊所以接著本席就要針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10741.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10762.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
像這個我們有提案再來就是我覺得這麼重要的法案行政院沒有版本好像也不對我們希望行政院有版本那我們就很多委員提出來的特別是針對你參選人針對你參選人你人也沒有定義清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10762.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10791.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我请问我小学生老师说你未来要的志愿是什么我要选总统你都不定义没有时间没有人的定义我想选总统那他是总统女参选人吗还有我们很多委员的助理可能他想选议员甚至他未来觉得他想接委员的这个职务他开始做了很多确实是女参选人想要做的事情那他是不是就是女参选人 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10793.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10812.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
人没有定义清楚再来什么叫做渗透怎么样叫做被对岸渗透那如果他是这个有机会他去观光旅游那他是不是然后有一天他来参选他就是被渗透所以像这个部分我想请教 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10815.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10831.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們法務部是不是先來講一下對於本席所說的 你看法 你認同嗎因為你們在裡面 你們就講了法律明確性跟罪行相當所以像這個擬參選人 你要怎麼定義還有滲透 你要怎麼被定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10832.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10860.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
是 谢谢委员垂询那首先我们这边立场其实跟委员以及提案委员一样我们都认为国家安全的确保以及国家主权的巩固其实是很重要的那我们提出的法治意见里面为什么对女参选人这边会有说明其实是为了让法案更加的完善尤其是女参选人的定义该怎么定义 法务部的意见是吗因为我们目前的可找到的法治上有三种定义可是三种定义都长得不太一样 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10861.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10886.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那也因為如果從文藝的射程上你參選人會細緻於參選人的主觀我到底想選或不想選最後有沒有一個客觀行為去框定他所以等一下像我們一般會用到你參選人以我們參選的經驗就是你可能要去監察院登記有沒有你參選人帳戶不然其他也不叫你參選人所以是不是他登記下去那個算他是你參選人他沒有登記前 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10888.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10901.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
委員講的是就是政治心理法的其中一種定義因為在選八法47條之三的立法理由其實有提到另外一種定義因為這個條文有擬參選人他講的是選舉公告之日起依政治心理法規定報經監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10903.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10932.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
報警監察院許可設立證明限定專務之人這個是這個證明憲法的定義他也有定義所以這個當然我們在討論的時候進入委員會討論的時候我們要用什麼定義這可以討論但是最重要就是不能沒有界限的定義我們是贊成要定就把它明定對要明定這一塊那再來就是滲透怎麼樣叫滲透有什麼明確的定義怎麼樣叫滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10934.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10947.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以今天到大陸旅遊算不算滲透吃了一餐飯算不算滲透這塊三位都表達一下好了委員你有特定指的是哪一條的構成要件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10948.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10969.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我不好針對我們特別的委員那你們看了你們應該知道滲透沒有很明確的定義因為其實還是要回歸因為我們講的明確性原則會套用在兩個地方一個是行政法的明確性原則一個是刑法的明確性原則強度是不一樣的但是滲透都沒有明確指出那你最後到底怎麼樣你可以算他是有被滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10971.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10989.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
沒有 沒有明確再來再來因為時間的關係再明確對 應該要再明確嘛所以我希望另外兩個部會的次長跟副主委你們要聽 要了解本席所講的跟法務部的意見那再來還有就是參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10991.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11017.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們在這個反滲透法裡面出現了參與兩個字好今天假設我們設定有某個候選人真的有明確的證據明確的真的有被滲透的事實那你用了一個參與兩個字所以在他的競選服務處在他的辦公室幫他打掃的算不算參與打掃的志工幫他端茶水幫他做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11018.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11046.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
事情的志工幫他做文宣整理的那這些都算參與嗎所以這個太模糊了非常模糊這一塊這個部分我想這樣好了請副主委回答一下副主委你那個參與跟滲透我想委員剛剛講的這個狀況應該不至於啦譬如說我們講參與黑道組織好了如果你是在賭場裡面幫他們做清潔打掃的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11047.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11066.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那在檢方來講不會把你當做黑道組織的參與者所以你這個參與沒有明確定義所以參與的定義一定是你有共犯的犯意的聯絡如果說我只是說去某一位候選人那邊去打掃那個是不可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11066.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11094.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以你今天讲得很清楚就是你的参与那所以我们在法条中当然我们还没进入主条嘛所以在法条中这个都应该要定义得很清楚才可以但是目前的法条没有嘛对但是法条永远不可能把穷尽所有的状况对但是我们总是要定义清楚嘛包含我们这个法务部也讲嘛有些明确性法律明确性跟罪行相当这一块还是要确认好 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11095.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11117.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那再来的话统战 来请教一下什么叫统战 如何定义还有灰色地带行为那这个副主委可以讲一下好了什么叫统战 要如何定义那今天是你这个执法单位或者是行政单位你认定是统战就是统战这样很可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11118.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11125.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
如果是這樣的話那起訴率跟定罪率就不會那麼低了沒有 所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11126.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11146.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
對啦 起訴率不高啦底下是誰在一直講話徐委員 徐委員你剛剛講到譬如說去大陸吃飯這個事情現在辦的主要都是我現在就是講你現在在法條裡你統戰你一定要明確定出來統戰還有什麼灰色地帶行為來 你講看看什麼叫統戰什麼叫統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11149.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11161.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
統戰就是利用各種方式去影響和拉攏台灣這邊的勢力這樣來來來那接著我們請參事貴姓謝參事剛剛我們副主委講的這個這算明確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11169.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11178.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
他剛剛講的那幾句話謝謝委員垂詢那因為委員所垂詢的其實是在草案目前的第二條有一個灰色地帶行為人裡面有提到統戰活動的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11179.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11204.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
因為現在沒有實定法的定義所以這東西就變成說當然是有明確定義是最好比較好操作也比較明確但如果沒有明確定義的話可能就要從這個法規的意旨裡面再去從實務發展出來他的確定的外延範圍因為這畢竟他搭附的後面草案是有相關的刑責的規定的在明確原則上面會稍微嚴格一點不過統戰行為這邊還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11206.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11225.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
一方面要參考主管機關相關的說明跟解釋對嘛 沒有定義嘛灰色地帶呢 灰色地帶呢你也講不出來所以這很明顯啦這部法律真的我們覺得要再精準不好意思主席我最後你們請回座我最後中選會很重要對你也很重要來我們請中選會好不好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11226.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11245.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
總選委對大家都重要要選舉的人蔡處長蔡處長現在我們2026已經進入了升委進階元年你知道什麼是升委吧現在AI的升委很可怕如果今天你看我們王朝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11246.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11268.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
他未来他在嘉义很强但是如果他的对手在选前几天突然因为我们立法委员像王委员他在立法院质询他那个声音太多了你只要到内政委员会你就可以收集他的声音然后AI就用他的声音模仿出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11268.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11295.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
他跟大家說假設他說我承認什麼什麼什麼會影響選舉的讓大家本來要投他的最後不投他或者說還是身體為一樣或者是怎麼樣我退出選舉這種情況有人做了用AI做了這個假的模仿了候選人的聲音甚至講了一些對選戰具有非常非常影響力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11296.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11325.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我请问你们有准备吗你们有在选战过程中因为像这些深维的东西它在网路上传播只要几秒钟在LINE Facebook TikTok或YouTube甚至IG各方面那我请问你们现在在各大平台中选会你有没有建立选举期间的绿色通道你可以用最快速的你有没有一个SOP你最快速的针对这些非常不实的你们可以马上去澄清有没有办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11326.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11353.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
報告委員依據公職人員選舉罷免法的一個規定你參選人候選人如果是在選舉公告到投票日前一日為止知道有人利用這個網際網路這些媒體來看播他的身為影音那他可以付費向警察機關來申請鑑識那如果警察機關申請鑑識的結果是具有深度偽造影音身為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11354.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11368.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個情形的時候他可以向這些看播這些影音的這些媒體啊來這個請求停止看播或是限制瀏覽移除下架等等那如果是意圖使候選人當選或不當選的這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11371.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11385.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
公子玄爸爸104條就有5年以下那如果是用身為影音我不是在問這個我想王委員聽得懂選前之夜這個一傳下去我還什麼還取警察機關還什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11386.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11414.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那整個都要翻盤了你不馬上出來有一個綠色通道澄清我告訴你隔天那個選舉就很大問題你看我們召委點頭了我要的不是你這個答案你大概沒聽懂但是我請你要帶回去因為今天我們這個主委副主委沒有來所以你因為我也不好佔用大家太多時間這個是非常非常嚴重的問題非常非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11415.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11433.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們中選會如果沒有辦法的話進入AI時代我們這個選舉真的會很亂而且這一些在網路上這種伪造 深偽伪造的然後再這樣傳播在關鍵時候就絕對出問題趙偉你認同認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11439.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11458.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
好他要回答包委因為這個如果涉及擬參選人候選人的這個是不是真實的沒有擬參選人我告訴你擬參選人沒有那麼激烈一定是選舉選舉前三天甚至前一天就是候選人對候選人也是包括因為是不是這個散佈的這些影音是不是真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11459.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11474.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
候选人应该是最清楚的对对对所以OK候选人如果马上提出来的时候对你们的SOP有多快我们要知道是这个还有你有没有办法马上官方的澄清我刚刚一直讲选举期间你的绿色通道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11475.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11497.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
對 現行的機制就是有沒有 你回答我有沒有現行選務機關是就針對選務機關的錯假訊息有一個綠色通道所以你的意思說是警察的職權對 那如果是候選人涉及到候選人的不實的這些謠言或是不實的散布謠言或是不實的事項是要由候選人向警察機關來申請見識 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11499.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11527.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那他這個廣遍媒體受到這些所以不是中選會的職權那所以你的意思我要問警察機關你有沒有綠色通道可以來公告主持這個選舉的這種狀況剛剛提到就是104條如果說有這個機制就是如果是利用身為影音來意圖使人當選或不當選來散佈謠言傳播不實之事的這個是有刑責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11528.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11533.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
至於說什麼是身為影音我插話一下 現在委員會來問的是發生的提議之後你們有什麼作為然後能不能遏止 隨便去找審判單位或是你們有權力來做歐北人說的有辦法趕快去下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11554.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11566.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
現在這個問題是這樣對啊 甚至你要官方你有這個公權力你可以讓大家知道這個這個是像你剛才說的好選人最重要這個是圍罩的這是真的假的但是好選人知道的時候要求助他們中選會的時候中選會沒有一個機制出來沒有SOP還有那個速度很重要現在就是這樣才會吃人 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11583.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11599.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我覺得不管帶一桶都一樣要有好的人才不可以受到這種的應用他現在是你問的時候是說如果發生這個事情你有多久的時間可以去寫下來不管你是通報帶一個單位是要公平的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11610.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11633.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
不要讓人家後輩來心肝壞的企業用AI來人家無聊來人家惡惡賊賣這樣不好現在他說的意思是這樣沒有啦 你們現在還沒有啦要加油啦 是不是我想應該是這個答案 好不好加油啦我現在也沒答案啦今天沒答案不表示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11634.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11643.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
下個會期 下個會期你們業務報告的時候這個一定會是很重要的重點時間漸漸開始了謝謝謝謝我們感謝習慶雲委員諮詢我們家葉研資委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11668.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11686.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
麻煩請陸委會陸委會 副主委委員好副主委好 我想問一下如果我們國人在國外去譬如說歐洲然後他要辦理退稅然後因為店員寫錯了國碼把我們台灣的國碼寫成了中國大陸的國碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11692.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11714.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那這個應該不會是陸委會業務如果要宣導的話應該是政府應該哪個機關去宣導國馬就是因為他寫錯國馬早知道不能退稅所以應該要告訴我們國人說如果以後到了歐洲到其他國家去假設要申請退稅的話在對方的店員在填國法之後你要仔細看 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11714.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11736.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
不要說因為填錯了害你之後退稅你覺得這個應該要我直覺應該可能是外交部或觀光署應該跟陸委會沒有關係那這個應該如果國人在國外面臨到這樣的狀況政府如果多多宣導的話可以降低國人旅遊的困擾嘛我覺得這個事情也是應該要做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11736.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11753.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
最近又發生一件事情就是有一個網紅叫叫鍾明軒他因為自己就遇到我剛剛講的狀況他去歐洲然後因為就是電源的國碼寫成中國大陸的所以他就沒辦法退稅然後他就提醒大家他就發了一個文說 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11754.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11779.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
各位親愛的旅遊的好朋友如果出國的話遇到這個狀況要特別注意其實這個應該是一個好事吧結果民進黨不分區立委郭玉琴就去酸他說沒事中國人 有事台灣人好像那個郭玉琴講的中國人講的應該是他的中國應該指的是中華人民共和國應該不會是中華民國 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11780.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11804.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
聽起來 語意上 對吧那就跑去酸他我是想問一下就是我不知道因為鍾明軒我不知道民進黨的立委是怎麼認定鍾明軒是中華人民共和國的人我不知道他怎麼認定的可能是鍾明軒最近比較常是不是有去中國大陸他可能有去拍了一些影片在網路上面有受到爭議對 我其實就是想要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11805.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11833.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
副主委因為我們陸委會為什麼會存在是根據兩岸人民關係條例那其實某種程度上也要促進兩岸的關係那現在如果有我們的國人到大陸去也許他覺得那邊的風景不錯或者是他想宣揚一些東西拍些影片就直接被認定是中華人民共和國的人我覺得這樣子的帽子扣太大那這樣以後誰還敢去對岸旅遊然後去對岸旅遊誰還敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11834.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11838.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
說哎呀這個風景不錯哪裡很好玩什麼東西很好吃你樂見這樣的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11841.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11867.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我覺得單純的拍影片當然不構成問題啦但是現在問題就是說中共他們有很明確的就是說針對台灣的網紅有做一系列的拉攏 扶植 培育的動作這個要證據啦沒有錯這要證據啦那現在所以周明軒現在還在爭議之中嘛那個不如我給你報告如果有爭議就不會爭議了啦其實那個時候那個時候那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11868.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11895.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
跟民進黨很好的網紅什麼八九閩南郎有剪一支影片然後裡面就提到海峽島海峽什麼島報講說他可以找周明軒後來其實最後被證明那個閩南郎也證明說那個其實經過剪接對方媒體根本不認識周明軒所以很多訊息都很片段而且是經過錯假資訊的認知作戰然後那如果在這種情況之下就直接給人家扣一個帽子說他去旅遊 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11896.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11926.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
然後他去怎麼樣他就是中國人中華人民共和國人所以我真的覺得真的沒有必要到這樣的一個地步那當然你講的如果說有被刻意怎麼樣怎麼樣違法的當然大家也都覺得不能接受可是沒有沒有證據直接扣帽子這樣子好嗎而且這種氛圍也影響到國內因為我們國內現在以前也發生過應該是陸配吧當Uber司機可能他講話中國口音中國大陸的口音 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11926.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11932.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
馬上就輕咬就說好可怕啊 國安問題啊怎麼連計程車都有國安問題那這是代表說任何只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11933.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11957.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
從大陸來的不管他是嫁過來的或者是娶台灣的老婆來這邊最後定居取得身分他都有他都第五縱隊嗎我不知道陸委會應該也要我們陸委會對於所有來台灣的陸配我們都是長期以來都是處於一種照顧協助的如果是我們當然支持一定要照顧協助可是現在社會的氛圍是這樣就是很多人刻意散佈這種錯假的資訊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11959.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11963.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
然後你好像只要講話是中國口音中國大陸口音你就你就有問題如果你 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11965.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11993.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你是站在照顧陸配的角度我覺得對於這樣的一個不好的氛圍你們應該是時候也要出來講一些話陸委會該講話的時候就會講譬如說上一次那個張文的事情有人就說什麼他的父母是陸配還是什麼這樣子那這個陸委會就立刻會出來澄清那就是結果了那個就是說因為發生重大事件陸委會陸委會就會出來澄清可是這種氛圍是慢慢慢慢累積的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11994.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12004.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
就是平常的時候可能有類似狀況就要出來講話而不是說等到像這麼重大事件因為那個張文的事件是發生這麼嚴重的事情還有人要來操作這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12005.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12031.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
事情當然你們必須要出來講話那非常非常嚴重可是這種氛圍其實是逐漸累積的在台灣的社會在蔓延當中但是我有可能也要了解一下他逐漸累積的根源其實是因為大家對於對岸的一些作為不是啦也有很多錯假的訊息嘛他會有一個反效果出來就像我剛講的嘛怎麼連連陸配可能陸配開計程車都要被汙名化說是不是第五縱隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12032.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12055.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
類似這樣啊我覺得不應該啦還有一個啦就是像我我在前年的時候我去亞洲啊去馬來西亞參加一個台商年會嘛那時候我剛好遇到海基會的人海基會就帶台商大陸的台商去馬來西亞去做那個交流可見其實海基會陸委會對於照顧大陸台商也是你們工作職責之一嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12056.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12073.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
然後結果在黨的立委去參加台商活動直接就被抹紅成去接受任務而且是完全沒有任何證據情況之下網路上也是超多這種錯假的訊息我是 因為主席站起來我是覺得說如果今天大家討論反滲透反滲透當然不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12074.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12089.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
不是 滲透啦 不應該啦要怎麼樣 該怎麼樣 再怎麼樣可是正常的交流或者是正常的一些生活真的不應該無限上綱到什麼都不紅的這樣這其實才是造成社會對立的一大根源啦我希望說陸委會可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12090.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12110.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
幫忙消除這樣的一個氛圍是 我們該講話的時候就會講話這絕對沒有問題但是現在就是說整個社會因為中共對我們的壓力和一些軍事作為實在是大家越來越感受到越深所以它會有這樣的一些反應出來但是你們還是可以做一些事是 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12117.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12131 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
謝謝 感謝葉研資委員質詢我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員不在我們省化衛委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12148.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12155.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好謝謝主席我先有請國安局謝謝國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12163.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12189.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好今天國安局來的是副處長副處長你好我們先來看一下週末我們看到一系列關於國安局的新聞報導我們來看一下第一個是關於談到中國如何透過認知作戰滲透台灣其實我看到這個新聞報導我非常的開心怎麼說不是開心中國的認知滲透作戰力氣這麼強而是國人總算有機會看見從國安局這邊來的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12191.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12202.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們台灣到底受到哪些的侵略跟攻擊很可惜的是在野黨委員可能沒有看到這個報告所以我要呼籲今天所有在野黨內政委員會還有司法法制委員會的委員應該要來看一下相關的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12202.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12226.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
看到國安局如何提醒國人中共做這些事情是如何希望創造台灣內部的混亂第一個包含激化我國內部對立削弱國人抗敵意志影響有蒙元台意願還有爭取認同中共的立場剛剛徐姓委員一開始就說他希望相關的反滲透法不要修出一個違憲的版本我要說最好笑的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12227.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12255.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
違憲的事情就是他們自己在做去年在內政委員會關門三分鐘送出法案不讓民進黨的委員進入內政委員會就是他徐欣穎所以我希望徐欣穎自己說到做到他應該要誠實認真面對現在中共鎖定移美移軍的加強認知作戰的訊息這才是最大的危機剛剛徐欣穎委員更荒謬的說逼所有的行政官員要在台上講出相關的定義我就說如果他們真的對定義有這麼多的疑惑跟不解 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12256.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12277.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那我們就真的好好討論不要到時候又全盤否定好所以我要再次謝謝國安局我們來看一下你們還有下一個報告下一張提到所謂的異常帳號跟爭議的訊息那我想我就國人一般的立場來跟國安局副局長這邊副處長這邊請教你們如何定義所謂的異常帳號跟所謂的爭議訊息可不可以用白話文說給國人聽聽看 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12280.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12300.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
異常帳號就是平常沒有什麼其他活動然後看起來就是不是一個正常人會使用帳號的一些稱呼那平常正常帳號會發哪些貼文就是跟其他帳號會有互動那異常帳號可能就是完全沒有互動或者是臨時註冊註冊時間很短然後平常沒什麼發文然後也沒有在跟別的帳號互動這個可能被你們定義為所謂的異常帳號那所謂的爭議訊息呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12304.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12321.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
他會散佈一些不實的訊息可能會跟市場有所出入那他還會有一些其他帳號的輔助或協力來去刻意炒作所以他會散佈不實的訊息經過你們的查證之後確認他是不實的訊息散播然後還會配合其他的異常帳號做協同操作對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12323.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12350.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
所以異常帳號加異常帳號加上爭議訊息這就是你們目前查獲231萬余則的爭議訊息的消息所以我想確實台灣在這個議題上陷的是很困難的處境真的希望在野黨委員不要為了黨而黨不要因為不敢面對台灣跟中國之間這個困境或者是只是一心想要討好中國我真的不知道在網美會委員召委排完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12351.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12366.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
後續有沒有辦法進行逐條討論後續有沒有機會送出委員會連剛剛徐心穎自己身為新竹縣長可能的國民黨候選人她自己都擔心她在選舉的前一夜可能受到假訊息的操作而被翻盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12367.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12381.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
如果連他自己都擔心那我就呼籲所有要競選縣市首長的國民黨委員民眾黨委員拜託你們就一起支持相關的修法好謝謝國安局這邊那我還看到你們相關的訊息還有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12383.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12407.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
因為呢打台灣的勝算可能很低如果只是就武力攻台的話而且只要台灣人的抵抗意志一天沒有消滅他們就越來越難打過來所以我們看到下一張來下一張呢我們看到有發動所謂的名嘴啦網軍協同攻勢也就是大家在網路上滑社群媒體的時候是一種樣態但是打開電視機開始按第四台 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12408.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12430.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
從第一台按到第五百台就會出現不同的網路網軍名嘴這個也是你們發現的對不對而且你們說還有接近五十個帳號進行高度協同產製六個階段的推進四層的心理攻擊跟全面系統化的設計透過這些名嘴製造恐慌製造投降 製造分化的心情這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12431.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12449.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
是 包委這個訊息不是我們發布但是跟我們掌握的差不多因為這個中共他在操作認知作戰一開始他會設定一個基調跟方向結果會透過一些網軍或是一些協力者來去進行傳散跟推播然後再運用大量異常的賬號來去把這個聲量推高然後再透過大多數圓散法就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12451.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12470.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這樣要傳播到其他國人的手機訊息上好 我們來看一下什麼叫做特定事件來看下一張之前中共軍演的時候就所謂的正義使命2025軍演這個荒謬的名字我們就發現他們出了一個照片其實我自己也有看到我第一時間意識到我認為我自己認為它可能是假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12470.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12491.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以我第一時間就趕快先上網查相關的訊息而不是急著把它散播出去但我認為很多國人可能沒有這樣的意識可能光是看到101看到一個直升機不明就裡的也不管這個照片的解析度也不管訊息的來源也不管相關國安單位或是國防單位發布的訊息就快速的傳播出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12491.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12517.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以我用這張照片來說 我認為確實相關的宣傳非常重要剛剛不管葉元之委員也好 徐欣盈委員也好都對著行政官員說 退稅要宣導啦 這個國安的事情也要宣導我就說 去年的總預算 我們所有的沒宣費被刪光光我現在回過來看 他們會不會有一個惡心 有一個惡意就是把所有的沒宣費刪光光 然後再來指責你們行政機關宣導不利 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12517.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12544.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以我也很好奇像這個101被監控問號機器人巷戰這個問號中共視覺洗腦這個新劇本我們相關單位如何透過沒有沒宣費的情況下還是廣發訊息讓國人知道你們的做法通常會是什麼包委按照本局機制掌握到相關訊息我們會第一時間掌握相關狀況然後通報給相關機關那同時我們也會溯源如果涉及到這些違法事證也會請司法檢查機關來去做依法徵處 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12546.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12569.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好 可是我還是很擔心我還是要呼籲 雖然今天是在講反滲透法但是不要忘記了所有行政機關今天所有被叫來的行政機關你們後續在相關事情上的努力如果沒有透過一定的宣傳力道其實是出不去的而且剛剛副處長你講了一個非常重要的事情現在不管是哪一個社群平台不管是FB IG TRADE或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12571.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12586.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
都有他自己的演算法而且演算法取決於誰要付錢誰願意花錢買廣告我相信你們國安單位不可能去買廣告我也相信今天所有的行政單位都不會花錢去買廣告釋放所有相關想要釐清錯假訊息的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12587.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12607.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以在我們沒有錢花 花錢買廣告然後我們相關沒宣費用又被砍光光的情況下總預算又不省我真的不知道後續你們所有為了國安所做的努力如何要讓國人有正確訊息被知道我也覺得非常的荒謬齁好 時間有限這邊先請回那我要請陸委會副主委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12608.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12624.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
江副主委好副主委本來準備了很多問題想問可是我剛聽葉元智那個我真的聽不下去我們來花一些時間釐清好不好因為有人講了錯假訊息我們就來釐清錯假訊息因為他們剛剛非常在意所謂錯假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12626.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12647.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
主委我剛剛 副主委我剛剛查了退稅的時候我剛剛看你有點不是很確定我也趕快在底下上網查因為我從來沒有在國外退過稅對我就知道來我幫你科普一下來退稅的時候如果在歐洲的精品店因為鐘鳴軒說他是在精品店中國的退稅代碼是156台灣的是158我先幫你科普一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12648.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12675.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那意思就是說他是在精品店拿出他的這一本台灣的綠色護照然後就拿到了精品店給他的一個退稅單上面的國際代碼呢他可能自己一時不察很開心就收進了包包然後他到了機場拿出這個精品店給他的退稅單準備到機場去退稅可能未來我們到日本也會是這樣然後於是就發現不能退他損失了一萬多塊其實事情是這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12678.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12699.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
剛剛葉元芝說你們要宣導啊你們要宣導你們要宣導國人出國的時候呢退稅代碼要正確其實這不關你陸委會的事說實話其實這是外交部的事情但是因為他剛剛指名要問你我也不知道他為什麼要這樣做但我們就說我也很想知道陸委會你們其實在相關對於國人出國尤其到中國或是港澳地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12700.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12709.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
如果有一些可能比較危險的狀況不是只有像退稅這麼開心的事情你們通常會透過哪些管道去做宣導跟加強訊息的散播 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12710.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12732.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們通常都是公開的訊息因為其實我必須說台灣跟大陸往來這三十幾年其實全世界對大陸最了解的就是台灣人比日本人 比美國人我們都要更了解所以台灣人其實並不是不知道那邊的狀況但是大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12733.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12755.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
台灣人的可能勇氣比較足啦所以有的時候都願意去冒險犯難這樣子我們台商有冒險犯難的精神好 那傅駿你先不要走問你一題剛剛徐欣盈也很著急然後我們網美會要選市長也很著急來看下一張再下一張好 再下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12757.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12782.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
來 委員我告訴你 好龍斌 劉彩薇招AI合成影片趙少康直指中國借選 我不知道副主委你還記不記得這個新聞是我記得那當然他這個是政黨內的選舉啦其實不在 中選會有請喔也不在中選會的規範範圍當中對不對可是主席那個我們現在的主席王美惠委員自己現在是嘉義市長候選人的提名人 本黨的提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12783.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12808.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
確實他們非常擔心在選前相關AI合成影片可是我就問最好笑的是國民黨這些委員遇到自己黨內主席在選舉的時候趙少康都出來講話的沒有一個立法委員跟趙少康站在一起沒有一個人敢像趙少康一樣公開的說中國請你收回去你的手中國請你不要跨境管轄中國請你不要介入台灣的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12809.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12831.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
請停止中國屆選只有趙少康敢講連趙少康的子弟兵許曉欣可能都不敢講那我也很好奇喔請問中選會那個副主委請問中選會你們未來怎麼看這個事情其實我知道他們黨主席選舉不關你的事可是未來2026地方大選就關你們的事情所以中選會這邊目前有什麼防範的做法包委員就是還是就是說現行的這個選報如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12839.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12861.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
這個用這個電腦合成技術的這些深微影音的部分那候選人如果知悉的話他是可以這個付費向警察機關來申請鑑識然後再向若是經鑑識為偽造的話深讀這個偽造影音的話那是可以向這些廣電媒體來申請下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12861.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12871.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那這些廣電媒體是兩日內就要移除或下架或限制瀏覽那如果沒有的話是可以處罰款那如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12871.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12893.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
有其他的特定的意圖是使人不當選的這個是有刑責的這是可以104條是可以處7年以下有期徒刑的對 那我來說一下現在本黨委員李博義跟吳立華委員提案修改反滲透法就是希望一 罰則要增加刑度再來就是把所謂的黨內初選 政黨提名罷免公投跟列入期間 下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12894.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12911.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以這有可能可以讓中選會作為參考所以我確實要說這一次要修反滲透法本黨所有提案的委員確實把現在我們在民間不管是透過社團法人組織或者是個人在平日或者是選舉的時候可能影響的樣態其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12912.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12940.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
方方面面都修法考慮進去了我真的希望後續在主條討論的時候在野黨的委員不要抱著法理的精神說我們都支持法理的精神我們都支持民主法治我們都希望修出一個不要違憲的版本那我就說你們就來支持相關的樣態不管是各式各樣的選舉不管是加重刑罰或者是設立國家安全專業法庭如同剛剛所有主管機關所說的我們跟中國之間的關係確實是越來越緊張但 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12942.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12968.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們是被害人我要再次強調台灣跟中國的關係越來越緊張的前提是台灣是被害人加害人是中國極權政府是習近平政府請在野黨委員不要再搞錯狀況不要再指責被害人繼續加害在被害人身上變成所謂的在台協力者所以我們辦公室全力支持反滲透法相關提案的修法也請各個主管機關我們一起努力喔謝謝 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12973.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12975.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
謝謝 感謝陳培宇委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12979.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13001.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
登記發言的委員除了不在庭以外 所有都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員內部有專瑞雄委員 林靜委員 丁薛忠委員 徐欣穎委員所提出的書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13004.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13010.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
書面質詢及被答覆的部分 將相關單位在一星期內依書面答覆並複製本會特定屬行所列議案另定期繼續審查本組的會議到現在結束 現在散會謝謝大家 |