| IVOD_ID |
17189 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17189 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-08T08:32:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-08T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:27:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc78fb36a44e90e469fe850adc8d4db2eb081761262ea6c52fc1b845d1a0edb5c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:36 - 12:00:00 |
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1668.519 |
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報告聯席會出席委員14人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開會介紹到場委員及應邀列席的官員我們先介紹在場的委員有黃國昌委員接著介紹應邀列席的官員是國防部副部長鍾樹民中副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1692.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1715.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
其他的我一并来做介绍的法律事务司司长吴益胜吴司长还有法律事务军法事务处处长吴纯贤处长政治作战局副局长张维新副局长还有战略规划司副司长何正祥副司长 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1716.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1728.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
還有資源規劃師副市長吳信仙副市長國安部採購事副主任鄭宜堅副主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1729.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1748.748 |
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主計局副局長 李建達副局長 總督察長室的副總督察長 程雀之副督察長人事參謀次長室助理次長 薛伯陽助理次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1750.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1770.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
還有情報參謀次長室助理次長朱惠民次長作戰級計劃參謀次長室助理次長彭國舟次長還有訓練參謀次長室助理次長許永祥助理次長海軍司令部計劃處處長吳天任處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1774.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1781.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
還有空軍司令部副參謀長 曹定明副參謀長司法院刑事廳長 顧正德副廳長法務部檢察司司長 張曉雯司長 |
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1796.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1814.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那其餘未及介紹的列席代表就請參與名單我們就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次的議程我們討論事項排定並按審查行政院函請審議陸海空軍刑法第24條條文的修正草案再提一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1823.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1838.758 |
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那其中第五案因為各個黨團沒有提出不附議同意書因此本次的會議我們就不予審查那我們現在開始來進行提案說明及報告提案說明委員還沒到場 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1842.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1854.601 |
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我們先請機關代表來做報告發言時間3分鐘我們現在請國安部副部長鍾樹明副部長來做報告主席 各位委員 先進 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1866.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1888.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
今天大院司法及法治外交及國防委員會聯席審查陸海空軍刑法第二四條條文修正草案本人代表國防部對各位委員長期關懷國防事務表達感激之意鑒於近年發生現役軍人對敵人表示效忠情勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1890.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1912.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
嚴重危害國家安全相關法制卻有檢討及修正之必要本部員推動陸海空軍刑法第二四條條文修正草案加重降敵罪刑責並徵定對敵人為效忠之表示罪其能確保國家安全及軍事利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1913.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1931.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
有關法案之說明接續由法律事務司吳司長向各位委員做具體的報告敬請大院各位委員給予支持指導謝謝大家主席各位委員先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1935.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1960.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
軍人依憲法第138條及國防法第5條規定應克盡職責確保國家安全之忠誠義務然近年屢發生現役軍人有對敵人為效忠之表示行為為嚇死及嚴懲此類行為行政院及大院委員分別提案修正陸海空軍刑法第24條條文原究各提案說明如下一 行政院版草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1961.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1989.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
提高降敵罪之法定刑現役軍人不盡其應盡之責而降敵之行為以違反保衛國家安全之忠誠義務如未盡其應盡之責而降敵其可非難性甚高因加重處罰原將現行第二項降敵罪之法定刑至一年以上七年以下有期徒刑加重為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑必符合罪行均衡原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1991.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2010.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
徵定降敵罪預備或陰謀犯之處罰陰謀或預備不盡其應盡之責而降敵之行之者將使戰事造成不利影響有處罰必要源於第四項徵定預備犯及陰謀犯降敵罪之處罰其刑度為六月以上五年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2012.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2037.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
增訂對敵人為效忠之表示罪為嚇阻現役軍人對敵人為效忠之表示以有效確保國家安全及軍事利益僅依陸海空軍懲罰法對此類行為之現役軍人施以懲罰措施能不足以達到嚇阻與懲罰的效果原增訂第五項以言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄科技方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2038.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2065.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑二 大院委員之提案大院林英集等十八名委員之提案加重第二項降敵罪之處罰將現行法定刑一年以上七年以下有期徒刑修正為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑第四項增訂降敵罪之預備犯及陰謀犯增訂第五項以言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2068.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2093.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
科技方法或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示足以深軍事上之不利益玷污國家榮譽或損害國家利益者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑本部意見委員提案對於敵人為效忠表示之處罰須另符合足以深軍事上之不利益玷污國家榮譽或損害國家利益為要件考量現役軍人不論階級高低 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2095.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2120.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
職務性 職勤 工作特性等一旦對敵人為效忠之表示對於軍隊士氣 部隊紀律與抗敵意識等均嚴重危害軍事上之利益原建議一 行政院版本通過二 大院王定宇等16名委員之提案加重第二項降敵罪之處罰將現行法定刑至一年以上七年以下有期徒刑修正為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2121.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2140.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
增訂第三項以言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄科技方法或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示者處兩年以上七年以下有期徒刑增訂預備或陰謀犯降敵罪或對敵人效忠表示之處罰其法定行為一年以上五年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2141.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2169.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
本部意見審酌本條犯罪行為所生之危害及罪行均衡原則建議以行政院版本通過三大院張雅玲等18名委員之提案與行政院版本一致本部競表尊重結語本次陸海空軍刑法之修法目的系補強軍人違反效忠國家義務法律規範展現政府守護國家安全之決心其能盡早完備立法程序敬請各位委員先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2171.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2186.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
給予支持並不吝指教 謝謝好 謝謝國防部的報告那接下來司法院跟司法院有沒有補充報告好 先副庭長 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2191.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2213.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進今天貴院司法及法制 外交及國防委員會聯席審查行政院函情審議 陸海空軍刑法24條修正草案等5案本院奉邀列席報告 深感榮幸首先對於各位委員致力於確保國家安全及軍事利益表示由衷的敬意 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2213.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2231.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
自就以下條文部分報告如下 敬請指教首先對於行政院含情審議的部分24條它甄列第五項以言語 舉動 文字 圖畫等方式對敵人為效忠之表示除一年以上七年以下有歧途刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2232.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2259.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
為效忠之表示含義甚廣為避免過度擴張可罰性的範圍肆意爭略勢性犯之要件在對敵人為效忠之表示後爭略足以生軍事上不利益這個部分在行政院研擬階段的時候曾經參採這樣一個見解文字這樣子一個要件才符合立法理由中所謂的保障軍事利益的法義這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2259.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2275.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那倘若這個行為不足以生軍事上的不利益的話則可以考慮說以陸海空軍懲罰法加以規範即可那此等以階層級化的處理方式較符合比例原則以及刑法的最後手段原則故見景在著 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2275.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2297.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那另外委員王定宇等16人委員張雅玲等18人委員李坤成等19人所擬拒之草案第24條都有相同的一個情形那本院的意見同前 均見請在著那為人尊重這個權責機關以及貴院之意見以及這個政策的決定那這是第一個部分那第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2297.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2323.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
就林怡瑾等18人所凝聚的修正草案它第五項的部分雖然有規定適性犯的要件可是它要件中有規範說足以墊入國家榮譽或損害國家利益它這樣一個要件尚非明確 建請釐清並建議於說明欄序名以及歷史以歷史物質運用第三點 關於王定宇等16人所凝聚的草案第五項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2323.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2345.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那它規定應該是說前三項應該是第一項到第三項之物也就是說這個前三項的這樣一個預備犯以及陰謀犯處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑那可是我們縱觀整個陸海空軍刑法其他預備犯以及陰謀犯的法定刑例如說同法第18條第一項及19條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2349.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2368.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
法定刑均與24條第一項的投敵罪同為死刑無歧途刑及10年以上有歧途刑違各該罪之預備犯或陰謀犯的法定刑僅有6個月以上5年以下有歧途刑又同法第22條第一項及23條第一項之罪法定刑均與24條第二項不盡其 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2370.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2397.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因禁之責而降帝罪同為三年以上十年以下有期徒刑違格該罪的預備或陰謀犯的法定刑均均為兩年以下有期徒刑拘役或薪台幣二十萬元以下的罰金所以修正草案第五項所規定的陰謀犯以及預備犯規定一年以上五年以下有期徒刑其法定刑較其他同法裡面所規定的陰謀犯以及預備犯為重那這個部分是不是符合比例原則及罪行相當原則均漸請再酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2399.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2428.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
同樣的問題李昆城等19人所拟據的查案也有相同的疑義意見請再酌其餘部分本院尊重權責機關以及貴院制政策決定以上報告敬請主席各位委員以及各位先進指教謝謝好 謝謝司法院的報告也提出了一些疑慮很值得參考接下來我們是不是也有請法務部有沒有說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2428.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2431.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
來 請法務部檢察司 張司長主席 各位委員 各位先進今日奉告列席委員會聯席會議就病案審查行政院函情審議陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案等五案代表本部列席報告並被質詢報告如下 敬請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2455.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2469.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
近年國安案件中有現役軍人對敵人為宣誓效忠之行為違反軍人課金職責履行確保國家安全之忠誠義務對此類行為有完備法制以及強化規範密度之必要以確保國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2471.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2488.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
行政院含情審議的陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案有鑒於以錄影方式向敵對勢力宣示效忠或簽署抵抗承諾書等行為恐有處罰漏洞因此行政院版草案第二十四條增訂了降敵罪之陰謀欲被犯處罰規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2489.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2516.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
提高降敵罪之刑責並增定現役軍人對敵人為效忠表示之刑事責任上開修正草案均經行政院邀請相關部會延商凝聚共事以兼顧人權保障及國家安全及軍事利益本部竟表贊同那就委員所提修正草案立法方向上與行政院版本的草案一致本部也竟表贊同那其餘違法之上的意見均詳如書面以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2518.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2529.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 謝謝法務部張市長那接下來來進行提案說明發言時間三分鐘先請張雅玲委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2539.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2562.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 謝謝主席這次若海空軍刑法第24條的修法重點其實就是要強調現役軍人本來就負有保衛國家忠誠國家的義務任何降敵或對敵表態效忠的行為都必須要嚴肅面對當現役軍人出現對敵人宣誓效忠或用各種方法向敵方作出表態時會直接傷害軍隊士氣部隊紀律戰備與作戰能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2566.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2590.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
最後影響的就是整個國家的安全所以這次的修法我有三個重點第一個加重不盡其應盡之責而降敵的刑度若是敵軍來了該抵抗不抵抗該盡力防衛卻沒有盡力反而直接投降這種行為違反軍人的職責因此我們把原本的刑度從一年以上七年以下提高到三年以上十年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2591.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2618.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第二把這類降敵行為的預備犯陰謀犯也納入處罰因為很多的風險不是戰爭當下才出現而是在戰事發生之前就有人開始串聯計劃準備一旦真的開打後果會更加的嚴重也更難補救所以這次的修法也把預備陰謀納入規範提前把風險擋住第三新針對敵人表態效忠的犯罪類型與刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2620.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2645.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
嫌疑軍人如果用言語動作文字圖像電磁記錄網路方式或其他方法向敵人作出效忠表示單靠陸海空軍懲罰罰處分嚇阻與懲罰效果都不夠所以我們增訂新的規定只要有意讓敵方知悉的效忠表示不論直接或間接都要負刑責處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2646.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2669.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這次的修法絕對不是在限縮言論自由也不是在控管批評政府或表達立場現役軍人不是一般身份本來就負有忠誠與保密的義務當你是刻意讓敵方知道的方式去表態效忠這就已經不是表達意見而是破壞國家安全的行為國家當然必須用刑法做出規範我們希望藉由提高刑責補上預謀 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2672.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2682.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
而預備於陰謀的漏洞並把對敵效忠的表態納入刑法規範之中以更加有效的去確保我們國家的安全以上 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員的提案說明那提案說明及機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2698.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2725.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
提案說明跟機關報告進行完畢我們現在開始來進行詢答今天因為是司法法制跟外交國防兩個委員會聯席共計今天有26位詢答人數比較多而且討論條文的時候都還有機會充分來做表達意見所以今天的詢答時間本聯席會委員就5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2727.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2737.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
非本聯席會只有三分鐘 均不再延長那上午十點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2761.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2785.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝主席麻煩有請副部長請國安部副部長黃議員好今天喔站在這邊質詢心情非常的沉重軍人當然有對國家效忠的忠誠義務但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2789.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2817.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
但是掌握權力的人要問問我們給這些冒險犯難的國軍弟兄給了什麼此時此刻有關於新上位的收入救工作還在進行我相信所有的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2819.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2847.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
跟我一樣希望他能夠安全獲救過去這十年每一次我們的非官墜機了不管是社會的輿論還是新聞的報導熟悉的畫面一樣的歷程 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2848.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2877.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一次又一次的上演F16過去舊的機型我們編了非常高的預算要提升它的戰能在2018年吳彥廷少校在五分三撞三之後2022年陳毅少校又在嘉義墜海 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2880.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2900.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
現在是2026年我們迎來的是一次又一次的悲劇2018年發生了這個事故了以後空軍告訴全台灣人民要檢討要面對在檢討面對的同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2907.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2935.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們也看到了針對於F16的戰機在美國發展出來了AUTO-GCAS的系統對於陷入Glock的飛行員它所產生實際的效用過去這幾年12個美國的飛行員因為有這樣的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2937.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2961.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
在最後一刻挽救了他們的生命2018年國防部說我們也要裝大家都贊成大家都贊成因為沒有什麼比我們這一些空軍優秀的飛行員更重要的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2964.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2993.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
把飛機救回來都還是其次把我們優秀的飛官救回來才是重點那一年預算追加了106億大家都贊成追加了106億大家都贊成所以要加裝自動防撞系統這是2018年的事情這是2018年的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2996.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3024.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
本來規劃2022年要完成非策2023年要執行安裝這不是我說的這是國防部自己說的結果呢 票票票票2023年國防部提到立法院的解凍報告說什麼2024年要完成安裝測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3027.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3051.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
再度跳票再度跳票每到一段時間透過媒體放消息做大內宣非常會什麼時候才願意誠實的告訴國人我們面對的情況到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3053.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3080.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
什麼時候才肯誠實的告訴我們第一線冒險犯案的非官們他們承受的風險是什麼要錢立法院什麼時候少給過什麼時候少給過重點是錢給了錢也付了然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3083.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3099.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
然後呢我昨天晚上一直在想這整件事到底怎麼發生的因為是深夜可以陪我聊天的只有AI我跟他討論了非常久他最後給我的結論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3111.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3136.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這些行政上面的延宕採購交貨的延宕已經成為我們飛關最大的風險來源副部長 贊不贊成贊成誰該負責任如果你也贊成延宕已經是我們飛關最大的風險下一個問題誰該負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3142.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3169.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我要跟委員解釋一下有關這個自動防撞系統我們原先使用的F16的兩個兩棟的飛空電腦它是類比式的一個架構我知道在你們給立法院的報告提過我全部都拜讀過了從第一天開始這個問題就提出來了在立法院的解凍報告也都洋洋灑灑寫過了我都拜讀過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3171.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3183.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我都拜讀過了所以我要跟委員報告就是說目前美方他重新開發這個自動式防撞系統他必須要開發類比式跟數位式的非控電腦同步來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3184.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3210.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那現在他這個開發出來的系統目前在測試當中所以我們跟美軍的BUG兩棟型的飛控電腦他一樣是同步來進行一個班修的一個動作但是目前這個系統我們付了多少錢因為我把預算書啊好幾年的預算書我一年一年翻你們全部都是Lumsum放在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3211.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3217.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
上一次追加是追加100多億這100多億裡面有多少是在付這個防狀系統的聯合報寫以付款零進度聯合報寫的對不對他這個供期是從沒關係啊 先一個問題一個問題來 付了多少錢還是這是國家機密台灣納稅人不能知道我們付了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3243.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3271.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
付了多少錢當時第一次是有關全案的金額是1100億針對防撞系統付了多少錢1100億全部拿來付防撞系統不可能吧後續第四次修正的時候是1359億元你還是沒有回答我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3273.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3298.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這防撞系統要一千多億 你要嚇死人喔因為它這一個碰撞系統 它包含了好幾個部分我知道嘛 就很多東西 加在一起嘛現在我具體的問這個防撞系統付了多少錢半導飛彈 它全部在這一個專案裡面所以我們現在買東西喔 是都輕輕的做費一次喊價 沒有每一個單項的價目 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3300.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3325.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們現在對媒採購已經變這樣嗎東西倒倒的 1000多億每一個多少錢 不知道我們現在對媒採購已經變成這樣了嗎我跟委員在座說明一下有關這一個遠測遙控飛彈跟自動防撞系統它這兩個案子併在一起一共是1402億元1402億 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3329.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3344.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
防撞系統多少錢 你現在不知道就對了這是國家機密嗎沒有 這兩個案子當時是一併在這個一千多億建案裡面一併去檢討付了一千多億這包含到我們整個這個遠側的遙控飛彈是在這個同一個案項裡面錢付了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3353.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3379.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
但是我要跟委員報告因為這一個目前來說這個防撞系統在數位式它目前是沒有問題但是在舊式的兩個兩棟的系統它是類比式所以美軍的國民兵沒有啦我再說一次啦我再說一次啦什麼數位式類比式專業的東西交給專業的人處理納粹人關心的是什麼國軍要提升裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3381.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3409.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
要升級我再講一次立法院該給的錢從來沒有少過台灣的納稅人沒有辦法理解的事情是錢付了東西在哪裡一而再 再而三的延宕錢付得很爽快什麼時候拿到貨不知道委員報告因為現在美軍的類比是他目前的防範系統他也沒有完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3410.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3431.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以這個系統到底能不能用大家都不知道就對了對嘛 現在我困惑就更大囉針對一個到底可不可以work的系統我們付了一千多億結果這個系統到底能不能work到底能不能轉換成功我們不知道當初是怎麼評估的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3433.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3445.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個部分目前已經有進度了我是空軍的作戰副參謀長在這邊跟委員做說明AUTOGECOS這個系統我們主要分為三個部分第一個是限速要做更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3445.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3475.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
第二個部分是飛超電腦的軟體要做提升第三個部分就是實際上這個飛超的電腦這個部分在第一個項目限速的部分我們總共要完成的目標是140架包含在美國路克那邊的Morris基地的14架目前包含美國跟國內已經完成118架的限速的安裝這個部分會在今年全部出來做完成另外兩項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3475.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3500.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
也就是飛超新的飛超軟體以及這個飛超電腦的部分會在115年的也就是今年的年終第二季的時候美方會提供會完成初步的測試然後會陸續的來實施安裝那目前規劃在最快是在116年的第四季最快是116年的第四季第二階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3501.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3517.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
不是 116年的第四季是最快是全部完成最快 2027年的第四季包含這三項的安裝現在你告訴大家的最快的進度是2027年的第四季我再提醒你一次2018年2020年2026年我為什麼講這三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3530.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3534.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我為什麼講這三年兩個罹難了 一個還在找你們每一次的paperwork每一次送來立法院的paperwork容我直說 容我直說寫的我不曉得是太樂觀還是完全沒有信心全部都在含糊其詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3558.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3582.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們看到的不是一而再再而三的跳票我們不忍的是我們的非官面對今天副部長所承認的最大的風險竟然是我們行政的延宕我不知道沒有講是行政的延宕因為我們在按照沒有關係 採購的延宕也可以看你要用什麼延宕你們今天在我詢答的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3584.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3606.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
沒有足夠的時間好好講沒有關係啊我非常希望今天國防部慎重開一個記者會好好跟全體國人講我們付出去的錢我們付出去的錢這些東西到底還要多久才拿得到好 謝謝黃國昌委員的詢答接下來請羅美玲委員做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3623.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3629.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
謝謝主席有請國防部中副部長請國防部中副部長郭委員好中副部長好今天呢我們還是要回到今天的主題我們要修正陸海空軍刑法的第24條那當然修法的這個目的是最主要是補足現行法是對軍人忠誠義務的這個刑責的這個規範的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3653.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3669.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
舉個例子像去年台灣高等法院台南高分院有個案子有兩個新一軍人葉新跟蘇信的新一軍人遭到台商黃姓父子的利誘吸收甚至還簽署了 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3671.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3675.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
校中的志願書然後黃姓父子呢犯罪所的共計是171萬6千元然後呢這個越南得款的是21萬元蘇南的是10萬元最後涉案的這個中間人也就是這兩位黃姓父子呢他是依這個國安法論罪科刑可是這兩位信義軍人呢卻是與貪污治罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3693.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3702.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
條例來論處也就是違背職務收受賄賂罪來論處也就是說現行的法制對於現役軍人涉入敵對勢力的這個行為他的這個可罰性實際上是還是細於在你有沒有這個對價關係所以如果現役軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3715.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3734.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
像這個敵對勢力表示效忠像這兩位軍人他就簽署了這個效忠自願書可是呢他並沒有收受這個金錢的話或者是其他具體的不法利益不但沒有辦法因國安法第二條第一款的比如說發起資助支持操縱或者是指揮或發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3736.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3751.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
來論罪甚至連貪污自罪條例的構成要件可能也都不足所以本席是贊成我們這次的修法就是陸海空軍刑法第24條針列的第五項那明文與言語 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3753.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3769.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技步伐或其他的方式對敵人效忠之表示納入處罰的範圍可是現在我們卻發現其實有很多人在提這個修法其實是侵害言論自由造成寒蟬效應請問國防部對這部分的言論我們有什麼樣的說法跟對應我請法律師好 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3779.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3802.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
委員好 我是法律師司長 按照現行司法實務的見解如果是說現役軍人遭到中共吸收的話 收取對價關係然後簽署投降的一些誓約書或拍攝影片他確實因為有收取對價關係所以會按照貪污之罪條例 收受賄賂罪等相關的罪責加以處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3803.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3813.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
如果是沒有的話今天是單純的為敵人一個效忠的表示因為軍人對國家就要有絕對忠誠的義務如果對 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3815.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3834.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
單純的對敵人為效忠的表示如果現在不用刑責加以嚴禁的話他會嚴重的去影響到我們的軍事安全還有一個部隊的一個內部管理更何況如果敵人利用他這一些拍攝的影片去做政治手法的渲染或向群眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3835.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3848.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
或利用這些去擴散它的一個效益它也會打擊到我國民心士氣甚至會影響到我國人民對我們軍人保駕衛國的決心所以我們在這一次的修法就這個單純的是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3850.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3866.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
敵人如果他有一個投降的一個表示所以我們單獨的列這個法我們希望這個法能夠通過然後也可以確保我們的軍事跟國家安全那至於說這一個法的修訂有沒有影響到言論自由的方面我這邊可以跟委員做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3868.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3893.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
軍人就是要效忠國家你絕對不能夠去背叛國家甚至你在言語上對國家不忠的言論都是不允許的所以在言論自由的這個部分我們並沒有去限制他只是說只是按照憲法跟國防法的規定他就是要效忠國家不能夠對敵人有任何效忠言論的表示那如果我們對他這種行為加以處罰的話也不會有違反比例原則的相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3895.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3906.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
對 因為按照憲法第138條還有國防法第5條還有公務人員服務法第1條它都有規定軍人跟公務人員本際負有高度的忠誠義務所以沒有所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3910.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3937.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這方面就是妨礙到他的這個言論自由因為我有看到這個美國統一軍事這個司法法典裡面第134條他裡面就有規定他說民主國家普遍承認軍人言論自由並非毫無限制所以我想這個部分應該朝野都應該要來支持的這個修法那另外我還有看到就是說原先我們國防部的這個草案的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3938.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3957.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
在第五項裡面有一個字眼被拿掉了足以生軍事上之不利益者可是在行政院版的時候被拿掉了如果是這個判斷基準被拿掉的話是不是會導致構成要件過於寬鬆或者是說產生使用範圍過廣國防部這部分有什麼樣的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3958.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3981.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是 這邊跟委員做一個說明我們訂這個東西將足以生軍事上之不利益我們認為說沒有增訂這個必要其實主要在於說 如果現役軍人你用言語舉動 文字圖畫 科技方法 電子紀錄或其他方式你已經直接或間接對敵人表示為效忠其實就已經嚴重的傷害我們國民的情感跟軍事上的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3982.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3997.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我們去設計這個法條主要就認為說他對敵人為宣誓效忠表示行為這表示一出來之後這個行為就成立是集成犯我們認為他已經對軍事上已經產生不利了所以我們認為這邊不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3998.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4018.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
所以這句話你們後來也同意行政院版本然後把它拿掉就對了那當然我們覺得說我們絕對是支持強化軍人忠誠義務的這個形式的規範所以我們來補足這個目前現行法律是不足所以我也希望說今天的修法朝野能夠有一個共識就是一起來支持今天的修法好 以上謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4024.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4028.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好 謝謝羅美玲委員接下來請程俊宇委員來做詢答好 謝謝趙委員我們有請鍾副部長請鍾副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4049.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4074.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
副部長早我們今天要審查的是這個陸海空軍刑法第24條的一個修正草案那也是因為大家都很清楚多年來中共對台灣的這個野心從未停止尤其對我們國軍的這個滲透手段已經到了無孔不入無所不用其極的這個地步那先前我們也曾經看到在我國這個軍官 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4076.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4099.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
遭到對方吸收簽署這個投降承諾書甚至穿著我們國軍的軍服拍攝影片配合敵方來做宣傳那過去因為法律上沒有明確的一個規範讓這些實質上屬於叛國的這種行為最後可能只是受到侵犯這不僅僅是我們國軍榮譽的一個踐踏更嚴重打擊部隊的一個士氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4103.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4124.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
甚至危害到我們國家的一個安全我想請教副部長從國防部過去所發現或是我們辦理過的這個案例來看中共通常是藉由什麼樣的一個管道和手段來誘使我們的官兵向其表示效忠在這個樣態上有沒有什麼樣的一個變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4125.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4147.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
目前來說他大部分會藉由在台灣的在台協力者或是發展軍中的組織來吸收或是用利誘的方式來做相關的滲透的一個手段我們在台灣裡面的內部有人跟他們相互配合就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4148.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4164.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
他會用利益吸收的一個方式來進行對比較低階的一些幹部來進行一些利誘或者吸收的一些手段那這方面我們國防部有沒有什麼樣的一個作為想要來喝止 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4168.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4183.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員好 我是政策局副局長跟委員做報告有關於這一部分當然第一個我們就是要做對官兵一個教育那持續以來我們做的教育的結果官兵對針對這些被滲透或甚至有限委面案件的一個檢舉率已經到80%甚至我們運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4184.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4208.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他可能在資金流向或是他個人有不太情形我們的在考核層面掌握到之後我們自己勾結出來整體來講有九成五左右所以說官兵一個自主發現或自主反映這些不當事情的話也相對的一個提升但後續我們現在來講就針對人員的查核層面人員的查核層面與其我們每一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4209.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4226.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
針對相關的案例太樣都會檢診來做一個滾動修正來納為最基層的最基層的一年級來他們做一個私教一個依據當然這次的修法我相信也對我們來講未來對懲治這些相關不當也有一定的益處 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4229.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4254.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
為了要有效的喝止這類型的情況繼續發生那嚴重危害我們國家的安全也避免說一再發生的可能性並且能夠徹底的來杜絕這個未戰先降的這種心態我想這次的修法確實是有其必要性那也希望說能夠透過我們這次的修法能夠徹底的來改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4257.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4275.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
改善這個情況的繼續發生這個我想我們後續還是請國防部繼續的這個加強那另外我想跟副部長您來討論在上個月傳出這個馬防部大規模涉入這個詐騙案的這個情況那涉案人數有超過60人以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4275.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4301.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我想這不單只是一個詐欺的案件也是一個嚴重的國安的警訊尤其外島地區也是我們防衛的第一線必須更加慎重我們看到這個案件已經交由檢方來偵辦但這件事情據傳持續一到兩年的時間同時涉案人數也很多為什麼我們內部的這個管控還有預警的機制沒有察覺到國防部是否已經有初步的一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4303.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4329.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
請教副部長第一個部分是這個部分我們已經有加強宣導來讓官兵加強他的一個法制以及涉嫌詐欺相關的一個法令的一個宣導那第二個事情我們也全盤前導昨天國防部有召開相關的一個檢討會對於後面的一個防制的做法會做一個精進以及這一個防制的一個做法來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4329.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4353.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好那根據我們國防部訂定的這個國軍官兵詐欺案件懲罰參考的一個基準表應該會針對官兵涉案的這個情節輕重給予適當的處分那我想還是請教副部長就這個案子來看我們可能有多少官兵會面臨到汰除的一個懲罰是否能夠有進一步的這個說明部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4353.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4376.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
因為這一個整個懲罰跟檢討還在進行當中那有具體的部分我們會到時候跟委員去做個說明好 那接續就是想請教這個兵力問題馬防部是我們防衛的最前線雖然國防部說會在兼顧這個防區戰備還有官兵權益之下由馬防部內部自行來做調整那不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4377.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4405.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
使我們的戰力發生有空隙的問題但現有的一個防區內有超過60位以上的官兵被調查面臨太阻的話實在是對我們的整個戰力會造成一個非常嚴重的缺口的問題那我想請教副部長對於馬防部這些人力的缺口是要用什麼樣的方式在最短時間之內來補齊那對於我們防區戰力的影響程度又會是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4406.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4431.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
第一個先向委員說明就是幾位官兵的乘儲要等整個檢討報告確認之後再決定他乘儲的一個基準跟類別那第二個部分是目前馬防部在整個戰備部隊的輪值上面是沒有產生問題的他可以試圖做一些人力調整所以對於外島的一個防務上面目前來說沒有任何的下降還是內部調整嗎 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4432.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4451.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以他目前因為我們的戰備部隊的輪值有一定的一個基礎那這是涉案的人員他不一定是輪值我們相關的戰備那我們會按照這個戰備的等級提升才檢討人員那目前戰備部隊硬處上面沒有任何的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4452.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4476.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好 我們針對馬防部的這個案子是危機那也是一個轉機我們必須利用這次的機會徹底來整頓我們基層這個部隊的一個風氣那部隊裡面有害群之馬我們應該要嚴懲就要嚴懲但對於絕大多數兢兢業業所在第一線的官兵我們還是要給予最大的支持我希望我們國防部對於這部分一定要重視好 以上謝謝謝謝委員的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4479.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4486.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 謝謝陳俊宇委員詢答接下來請王逸川委員來做詢答好 謝謝主席 我們請副部長謝謝 請鍾副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4504.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4531.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
黃委員好 副部長好今天關於這樣的一個修正我這樣理解看對不對行政院的版本大概分幾種一種叫做如果去投底的話是10年以上到死刑然後第二個如果是這一個去降底的話去跟敵人投降的話不盡應盡之責去投降是3到10年那犯了這兩個的預備犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4532.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4544.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
是這一個六個月到五年然後最後加了一個比較新的形態的就是語言舉動文字圖畫電子企圖科技方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4545.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4568.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
表達對敵人的效忠是一年以上 七年以下大概是這樣子 而這個版本裡頭行政院的版本 包括委員的版本我看完你們的分析 像林一景委員的提案因為後面多了一句 足以生軍事喪失不利玷污國家榮譽 損害國家利益加這幾個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4571.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4593.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
感覺起來你們會比較難處理我看司法院的意見好像也對這幾個字的定義並不是很明確是不是請國安部在這一塊先表達你們的意見尤其是林議警委員加了這些文字之後未來你們在執行上是會增加更多困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4597.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4625.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
報告委員好 我是法律師司長跟委員做個說明就是因為有關於委員他在我們用言語舉動文字圖畫電子記錄或是科技方法或其他方式對體人為效忠之表示委員加了足以生軍事上不利益或是玷污國家榮譽這些文字但是因為他這一個軍人他最重要的就是要對國家忠誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4626.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4653.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
他絕對不能夠說向敵人表示說我要效忠你這種行為會讓我們全國人民都不認同那這種意識表示出來之後其實我們的看法就認為說這一個為敵人效忠的行為表示就已經成立 就即成敗就已經成立於林鄭月娥委員的後面這一段他因為他這樣就他這種行為一出來說實在話對於我們部隊的內部管理軍紀及國家安全和國內的認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4654.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4670.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
都產生極大的影響已經生了軍事上的不利益了就是說加了這一段反而讓這一個可能到時候當事人就拿這一段出來說我也沒有影響國家利益這一類的這樣的一個辯駁嘛 對不對這個當事人他有些犯罪行為他很多矯視之詞啦第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4679.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4701.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為新加了這個應該也是最近的這個新型態那我現在如果舉一個例子就是說有人用AI合成把這個我們的這個敵人境外敵對勢力他們的這個叫領袖好了或他們的領導給美化然後就做了一張這個軍人效忠他的圖一種是做這張圖的人做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4707.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4719.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
用AI去生成這張圖的人是現役軍人那他不會犯這一條各位報告因為這可能還要按照個案的具體事實來認識用法那第二個是傳這張圖的人是現役軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4723.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4747.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
跟委員報告因為如果是這樣的一個問題的話我們還是認為應該按照具體的事實沒有就是說那一張圖就是說做那一張圖的是現役軍人就是說他做這件事情已經違反這個已經很明確了這個人已經很明確那我是他的同袍嗎那我收到他傳給我我也覺得很有趣我覺得很有趣於是我就傳了那我有沒有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4748.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4773.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
顧委員報告因為我們這個設定的構成要件它就是為敵人為效忠的表示對如果他做這張圖出來他有很明白的直接或是間接要向敵人為一個效忠的表示的話當然會構成我們新申訂的這個罪沒有 那我沒有 我就轉傳對 如果是 當然是如果是你轉傳那我們經過了解後他可能沒有這個向敵人效忠表示的意思但是我們現役軍人你對國家的忠誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4775.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4801.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
就是連這種說轉船啊然後這種行為我們都不樂見如果是說我們認為他行為舉止可能有不當我們可以按照陸海空軍懲罰法對他的一個不當的行為舉止加以釋懲好 那你 他轉船了他也沒有表示意見 他就轉船嘛覺得好玩啊 他就轉船轉船到一個有現役軍人的群組然後裡頭就有一個現役軍人說 同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4805.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4834.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這樣各位不知道這可能還是要按照個案的事實來認識用法所以這個弄了之後到時候可能這個檢察官法官我剛講這些都是個案的這個狀況還是同意或者說畫得很好同意或者是畫得很好那他也用言語表達了對吧他對一個圖像他對做了一個言語上的表達了那可能也會中這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4835.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4860.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以後續這個修法通過之後後續對於這一些樣態可能國安部這一邊要能夠再跟就要再跟這個檢察官這一邊跟法務部跟司法院在這一些的認定上能夠更加的明確最後一個如果啊這個現役軍人在反串反串啊半夜當啊 演戲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4866.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4888.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
反串然後就有一個人對習近平敬禮對五星旗敬禮大家都知道他們在演戲他們在反串現在在軍方裡頭這樣是允許的嗎我們是應該不會允許這種行為舉止他沒有在軍方他們就整個人跑去KTV唱歌他們就假搞自拍傳上網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4895.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4902.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
但是他是現役軍人後來被你們叫去之後他說沒有啦 我們是在玩的我們是在反串的會不會中這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4904.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4929.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
報告委員還是要按照具體的事實來認定如果是說他們有這種效忠敵人的一個表示可能就會落入這一條如果他是反串可能是開玩笑但是因為他行為舉止不當還是影響了軍域我們會用陸海空軍懲罰法等相關的一個法條對他予以釋懲OK 就是不一定會到這個陸海空軍刑法但是有其他的要按照個案來判斷OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4933.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4935.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好 謝謝王一川委員 接下來請省發會委員轉頭轉頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4960.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4985.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們是不是先請副部長請副部長等一下我們法律事務司如果有需要就幫副部長討論副部長討論我們今天我們司法法治委員會來安排這個有關陸海空軍刑法第24條修正條文的這個草案的討論跟審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4988.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4993.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我看我們這一次的修法大概主要就是三個部分做修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4995.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5018.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
第一個就是在原來24條的第二項有關於不盡其應盡職責而降敵者這個部分提高刑責這是第一個修法就把這種消極的不盡義務而降敵的這種行為太樣提高他的刑責這是第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5019.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5045.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
第二個部分在這個第四項的部分就是把第二項我們剛剛講的這個行為太樣它的原本它的這個預備犯跟陰謀犯過去是第二項這種消極不盡其職責相抵的是沒有預備跟陰謀這一次我們修法把預備跟陰謀犯第二項之罪也把它納入這個刑責的範圍這個大概是第二個修法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5047.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5070.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
第三個就是我們新增的第五項有關於這種新的犯罪的類型就是以語言 舉動 文字 圖畫電磁記錄 科技方法或其他方式對敵人表示效忠者對敵人表示效忠者這個新增的就是大概這個修法今天我們修法大概就這三個部分這三個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5073.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5081.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
有關於這個提高刑責的部分我想大家應該這個社會大家共識應該是比較沒有什麼爭議那關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5084.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5112.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個預備或陰謀的部分也過去因為實際上在這幾年發生了許多案例在這個有預備陰謀的部分他卻沒有無法可苛責所以這個這個也應該比較沒有沒有什麼爭議所以我們剛剛我看剛剛前面委員大概集中的討論的都是有關於我們新增的第五項這個以言語舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式這個對敵人為效忠之表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5115.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5125.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個部分我們先來看過去我們看到的幾個案例剛剛也有委員有提到我這邊就舉幾個案例包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5128.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5154.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個2023年12月所做的判決我們前陸軍上校向德恩他簽了這個降貢的承諾書降貢承諾書那在這個最後判刑七年定宴但是問題是他那時候判刑就是因為當時沒有這樣子的規定所以他那時候判刑他在這個陸海空軍刑法裡面他沒有法律可以規範這樣子的行為就簽署這個投降承諾書 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5156.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5179.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以最後判刑7年是按照依照這個貪污治罪條例收賄罪來判刑對不對是不是這樣副部長是換句話說假設他沒有收錢假設他沒有收賄那他就變成這個行為就完全他是因為他收了錢他收了這個50幾萬因為他收錢所以他觸犯貪污治罪條例假設他沒有收錢就簽了這個頭獎協議書 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5184.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5195.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那這個按照如果我們沒有做修法的話按照目前的這個陸海控制刑法是不是我們沒有辦法於法律上的苛責 副部長副部長 還是我們司長要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5196.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5224.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
各位報告 這確實上有法治上不足之處所以為什麼我們這次要做這樣的修法就是因為相關的行為這個2023年這個案子另外去年的2月我們有關於這個蕭翔雲 康一彬等等八名現役軍人的這個預謀駕軍機叛逃拍攝新戰投降影片這個部分最後判刑也是依參戶之罪條例也是因為他們收錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5225.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5241.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
假設都沒有這種收賄的行為今天我們不修法的話會變成這個我們目前的陸海空行法對這個部分沒有辦法苛責所以這部分我想我們會支持這樣的修法但是剛才所有委員大概關注一個問題這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5243.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5269.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
來自於什麼來自於我們司法院今天司法院的書面報告司法院書面報告特別點出這一點第一個他們就是說我們在這個本案的研擬階段提出了這個有關於這個實害結果的這個文字就是說過去原本的案原本我們的草案在研擬階段還有現在其他委員提案有關於逐生軍事上之不利益者作為這個構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5270.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5288.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
的一部分那在我們現在這個今天我們行政院的草案裡面是把這個這樣子的這個實施危險性的部分把它拿掉了那這部分是不是請市長再做一下說明為什麼剛才我有聽到你的說明大概知道你的意思是不是請你再說明一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5289.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5318.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是跟委員再做一個說明因為我們將這個朱以森軍事上是不利益我們拿掉主要這個如果在刑法上是一個世性犯這是法院他後面對他這個行為有一個判斷的一個餘地但是我們就是認為說其實現役軍人就是要效忠國家你對敵人就不能夠有有一個效忠的表示這樣這個表示行為一出來我們認為就這個罪就成立了市長這部分要這樣子來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5320.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5341.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
因為我們這個什麼陸海空軍刑法開宗明義第一條就是現役軍人犯本法之罪者 依本法處罰也就是陸海空軍刑法規範的就是現役軍人這個身份犯的身份這個身份是非常明確的那麼現役軍人現役軍人他本質上在法律地位上他本身就建立在對國家的忠誠義務上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5342.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5367.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
也就是說你這樣簽署這種投降承諾書之類的這樣子的對敵人表示效忠的行為本身就已經違反了你這個作為軍人的忠誠義務跟服從命令的義務這個是我們入海空軍刑法第一條開宗明義就是規範它的這些忠誠義務相關所以如果我們加上剛才最後這個時害條件你必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5370.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5393.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對於這個逐生軍事上的損害的話他會造成兩個結果第一個就變成你這個未來所有案件我們國防部必須負舉證責任舉證說他這個行為造成了什麼樣的軍事上面的影響但是其實在我們看來軍人因為他有這個國家忠誠義務因此當他有這個行為的時候他其實就必然的造成軍事上的損害是不是這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5395.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5413.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
對所以就是因為他的身份我們陸海公共刑法的身份犯的這樣子的性質使得這樣子的規定他會造成未來我還要第一個國防部還必須舉證第二國防部舉證之後你還要看陳審法官的心證心證來看你這個到底有沒有造成軍事上的損害但是其實在我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5414.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5433.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因為你是現役軍人因此你的國家就負有忠誠的義務所以你所有你只要有這樣子的簽署承諾書對敵人表示效忠的這樣子的行為的表示的時候你就已經造成軍事上的損害了對不對所以應該不必在這個條文裡面再增設這樣子的實害的條件對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5434.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5457.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個部分我想要講清楚了講清楚之後我想這個社會也可以接受那這個大家也對於這個清楚說入海空軍刑法的規範跟言論自由是完全是沒有關係的它是在規範現役軍人你對國家的忠誠義務跟服從義務對不對這個部分我想我們在等一下這個主條審查的時候希望我們能夠這個部分能夠表述清楚好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5461.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5465.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
謝謝審發會委員 接下來我們請吳宗憲委員謝謝主席 那我們麻煩副部長我們請總副部長副部長早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5482.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5502.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我想我今天不是說完全跟你們討論法律上面的問題因為主要是我有朋友的小孩他們最近要當兵其實他們很擔心一些問題然後第二個就是說如果當法律的問題部長您都沒有辦法理解各種的細節的話我們更沒有辦法去要求一個二等兵他能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5503.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5519.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
知道到底法律在規範什麼這樣就有風險我們不可能什麼東西都找那個我們的法律事務司司長來做一個解釋那我覺得這次其實讓我很搞不清楚就是說這個想敵跟投敵他這個定義上面我會擔心是 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5521.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5544.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
會讓一些人搞不太清楚尤其是你要怎麼樣去界定一個軍人預備預備不抵抗這個預備不抵抗你要怎麼去猜他你要怎麼去猜他心裡是預備不抵抗當然我先講 我先講我的立場我去多次我再公開一下國會我都講我絕對是忠於國家我絕對支持國防而且我絕對是反對敵人 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5545.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5570.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這一點這是我的立場但是我們不能讓一個不確定的法律概念變成是寒蟬消音變成是政治工具你要知道2024年之前我們搞的反滲透法還有國安法其實它當時抓了非常多人結果我跟法務部要的資料到目前為止將近八成都是牽結不起訴或是判無罪所以我們不能讓法律的不明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5571.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5596.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
違反法律明確性原則然後去讓人民或讓軍人搞不清楚狀況我們講一個就是說如果今天一個軍人一個飛行員空軍飛行員他覺得我飛機沒有我飛行員沒有防寒衣沒有防撞地系統等等的那我最近我不想飛了那這個是他我們應該是認為他要太除掉還是直接認為他要降低請問一下副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5598.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5611.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因為如果按照你們的條文的話什麼都心理的態度是由你來解釋的話那請問一下我不想飛我覺得我會害怕影響到生命安全那我是降敵還是我是只是太除掉就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5613.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5633.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
沒有啦 副部長如果連你都不知道的話你怎麼能夠要一個小兵能夠理解呢因為他這一個沒有飛他勢必有他一定的因素那應該是講說他我們要去了解他為什麼不願意執行這個任務好 那這個就是風險我跟您報告這個就風險因為這個的決定就是長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5636.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5656.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
長官覺得你問他他一定說我沒有我不是但是呢長官就可以替他決定他是想敵還是他就是一個該太處不適格的軍人這第一個法律違反明確性的風險就在這所以為什麼我們在談法律的時候尤其是刑法我們講求明確性原則非常的重要所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5657.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5687.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我先讲一个就是说你今天把一些思想犯预备犯放进去的时候这个就会有很大的风险尤其你的立法例有讲到一些具体的行为你们这次有讲到一些具体的行为那如果有具体的行为有过往的案例那你为什么不条文写的精确而只用阴谋或预备这种思想犯的概念放进去呢因为思想犯最危险的地方就是会把人的立场情绪跟一些抱怨都变成是降底或投底 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5687.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5712.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我要跟委員解釋一下就譬如說飛行員他不執行任務這個事情我們要檢討平時跟暫時第二個部分是他不執行任務他的具體原因是什麼第三個部分是有關相關的這個頭體跟翔體我們必須要按照個案他有具體的行為來做檢討而不是說他今天有一個不是 你們的條文還包括到陳平時期跟開戰前 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5713.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5724.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
或戰事發生前所以我們必須要按照他個案發生的情形好吧 那我再跟您說明這就是我們法律人擔心的部分因為什麼都個案 什麼都個案到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5726.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5749.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
您也搞不清楚 小兵更搞不清楚好不好 這先跟您說明第一個第二個 什麼叫做效忠這也是一個很不明確的一個概念那我先請教您一個問題現役軍人如果用社群轉發一個敵方的媒體影片譬如說戰狼啊 講那中國人民解放軍多厲害這個然後配文寫 我希望兩岸不要發生戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5750.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5769.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
他沒有收錢也沒有接觸對方然後只是轉貼那請問一下敵人看到了那這算不算是效忠上有問題或效忠敵人 算不算這個要從個案上面去解釋那第二個被截圖轉傳就是軍人私下跟朋友聊天然後跟朋友罵了一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5770.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5799.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
結果朋友截圖轉到對岸的群組他甚至或是稱讚那個對岸的那個軍力多強那請問這個有沒有效忠對方對岸的人看到了有沒有就是還是跟委員報告就是說第三個兩岸往來這個如果軍人先軍人跑去那邊探親或辦台胞證或上淘寶去買檢體書然後跟那個軍隊同仁說那邊生活不錯這個算不算效忠敵人 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5800.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5805.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我現在講的都是藍綠白任何一個國民都會遇到的問題請問這是不是效忠 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5806.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5834.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我要跟委員報告還是依據他有個案具體的行為去檢討好那再來如果軍人KTV唱歌唱一唱說我好累希望敵人趕快來這樣算不算還有再來如果是一些你們講連間接都算那請問什麼叫做間接這是第一個問題什麼叫做間接第二個如果我在臉書上面按讚轉發引用點閱分享或者是私訊留言這個算不算這個都沒有明確我跟您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5836.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5864.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我再說一件事情我知道你們會跟我回一句話叫做依據憲法第九條軍法是適用在軍人不是用在一般平民對不對但是請看四字二七二號四字二七二號戒嚴時期軍法也有可能適用在一般人民所以今天我會很擔心一件事你今天軍法訂了以後依照我國的法制是有可能用在一般人民依據四字二七二號所以你這些東西不能這麼不明確否則今天不 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5864.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5885.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
不管誰執政都有民主國家執政可能是輪替的那我也不希望說改天如果民眾黨執政或國民黨執政用這個來修理民進黨的人我也不希望這樣所以我一直希望法律能夠有明確性的原則像剛剛主席在質詢我就覺得他質詢的就很清楚那我助理還跑來跟我說剛剛那個王委員今天的質詢很棒所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5886.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5913.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
沒有 真的剛剛我助理就在這裡他剛剛就這樣跟我講所以我覺得這個是大家關注的議題法律明確性這個不分任何政黨的傾向我們支持那個陸海空軍刑法去辦叛國的人但是我們希望法律要有明確性更何況這一次司法院跟法務部其實都有報告來提醒你們說這個效忠這個用語太空泛太廣泛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5913.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5930.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
建議你們要加上這個行為要有足以產生軍事上的不利益這是這次司法院跟法務部都有給你們做這樣的建議並不是說只有我今天在這裡這樣子提出來我想很多東西不教而殺越之虐 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5932.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5947.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
副部長如果連您都很難去馬上判斷的時候小兵或者是基層軍官更不容易判斷更何況4.272號他是有可能在宣布戒嚴的時候適用到一般人民身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5948.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5974.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這就是我認為陸海空運刑法我們也要嚴格去看不是它只有針對軍人而是會針對到一般的平民我不希望就是說因為你這個效忠跟這個什麼降敵這個我覺得太空泛我不希望回歸到戒嚴時期我看了一本禁書我就要被抓去關因為這都有可能被歸類是在降敵或者是你有沒有陰謀或預備副部長我不知道你的想法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5974.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5991.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
第一個部分是有關相關的軍刑法的一個修訂我們會做加強宣導第二個部分就是我們現在所有設的個案他都有強制的辯護人員的設立所以每個個案都會去很緊實的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5992.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6017.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
按照他個案的狀況來做檢討另外我想跟你們再提醒一下除了陸海空軍刑法之外還有陸海空軍的懲罰法你可以記過你可以把他勒令退伍你可以撤職所以對於這種思想上的人他沒有付諸行動或沒有造成實際的危害譬如說我轉發戰狼這部電影雖然我不看那部電影我不屑看但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6018.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6033.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
今天如果有人看了一段或截了一段轉傳了那會不會他會把自己給卡到官司卡到刑責因為你現在是要修刑法那其實它可以回歸到你們懲罰法去你可以把它汰除掉你可以把它勒令退伍你可以把它記過 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6034.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6050.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這些不是都可以做嗎而不是做了什麼事要把他判刑而且判刑的標準竟然是長官來認定是不是就像我剛剛說的他因為沒有防寒衣他不敢飛結果你認為是想敵他認為我不是想敵我只是要保護我自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6051.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6080.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我認為裝備齊全我願意跟我們的敵人一戰決一死戰但是因為現在裝備不齊全我不想飛那你說他是想敵這就會有這個空間存在所以我還是堅持那個點法律人我還是說法律話法律明確性原則這是一個最基本的要求我支持你們對抗所有外來的武力我支持我國的國防我絕對支持但是你不能這樣子有一些不明確的東西在裡面好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6081.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6096.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
副部長可以麻煩你們再就這部分去加以審查可以嗎至少參考司法院跟法務部的意見吧至少參考吧這個部分再麻煩你那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6098.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6117.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
4.272號請你再仔細看一下4.272號我們一般人民也有可能會被試驗上我要跟委員說明就是每一個個案發生他會不會涉及到相關的一個刑責每一個個案都會很謹慎的處理而且每個個案會確實調查他們具體的行為以及他是有涉犯也有強制的辯護制度來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6118.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6139.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
谢谢但是我跟副部长报告一件事如果连您都没有办法遗忘集资的时候我们更没有办法期待一般的士兵能够知道我怎么样会违法怎么样不会而且入海公益寻法判刑都非常重这是我担心我们的小孩都有一天会当兵他是不一样的我们的小孩都有一天会当兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6140.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6155.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我也一定會支持我小孩要報效我們這個國家但是我不希望法律不明確好不好謝謝副部長再麻煩您能夠參考一下事務院法務部的意見好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來我們請沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6171.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6199.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
謝謝主席有請 可能請副部長跟法律事務司司長好 請副部長跟司長沈委員好副部長好今天這個討論我覺得當然是蠻重要的我有幾個點來請教一下第一個就是說我們這一次就是其實剛剛前面委員有提到我們 我先問一下就是說投敵還有降敵這樣的一個文字是我們本來法律就有還是這次才上去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6200.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6217.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
報告委員這原來的法條就有了原來法條就有了所謂的投敵就是投奔敵營接受敵人的指揮跟派遣那降敵就是說我跟與敵人在就是說你不盡你應盡之責任而降敵這在法 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6217.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6243.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
法律上都很明確因為投敵跟降敵這個文字它本來就有它本來就有然後它本來也有相對應的解釋所以這個應該不是問題這不是問題所以真正剛剛前面有委員提到說這個可能有不明確什麼等等之類的我覺得這可能有點誤會但是往下因為接下來因為這一次的這一個預備犯這個預備犯有稍微擴張對不對這個我待會再談 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6244.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6273.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
因為我們投敵跟降敵目前我們在法律的定義有兩個層次的問題我們要注意第一個就是我們投敵跟降敵到底是指平時戰時都有還是只有戰時平時戰時都有然後這第一個然後第二個就是說我們投敵因為敵畢竟還是要有一個定義就是要有一個敵人的定義因為我們這個敵人因為我們現在比如說我們有一些修法是用境外敵對勢力等等之類的但我們的外患還有我們若干區刑法一直都寫敵人 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6275.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6298.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那因为敌人到底要怎么定义有可能会有刚刚又有前面委员讲到的这个定义问题但我们的法院其实是不是已经有针对敌人这个部分有做过说明跟委员做个报告按照陆海空军刑法第10条所谓的敌人就是与我国交战或武力对视之国家或团体那按照我们现在司法书的见解 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6299.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6328.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
中共与我们就是武力对峙的状态他就是我们国军的敌人所以很明确的所以在这边我们就厘清一下就是说按照法律的定义还有我们现在这个法院的解释敌人的定义是明确但这个敌人的定义按照刚刚这个司长提到的是在平时跟战时都通用对不对都通用我们再往下看就是说所以我们今天讲这个以言语为宜人效忠之表示这个也是平时战时都用 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6329.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6342.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
都有如果是這個樣子的話我們看一下我們這一個右邊我們右邊這邊附的是刑法的外患罪刑法的這個外患罪我們在106跟107其實我覺得107算是類型豐富就是軍隊交付敵國的交付敵國將要塞等等之類去交付或者帶敵國招募軍隊傷禍軍人不執行等等之類的它的類型多 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6357.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6375.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
但是我們刑法的外患罪有一個特色就是外患罪適用的這個對象是非常廣泛的所以剛剛前面的委員有提到說這個是不是一般人都會用什麼等等之類的其實我覺得有一件事情應該是要讓國人知道就是我們刑法的外患罪其實已經定在那邊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6375.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6397.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
它其實一般人就已經可以用了所以它已經存在了它不是說這次修法才新訂進去的這是從以前到現在所以如果對於一般人民能不能夠適用有所疑慮的話其實應該來修外患罪這是第一個第二個就是在外患罪這一邊這個刑度就是我畫起來的地方因為它畢竟它的身分是一般人就可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6398.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6424.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那他的刑度是無期徒刑7年以上他的加重注底甚至可以到死刑無期徒刑然後他的預備跟陰謀是3到10那因為他的類型算清楚所以如果用這個清楚的類型去抓那個預備跟陰謀都可以到3到10的話我反而覺得倒過來看我們這一次的修法因為這次的修法是陸海軍軍刑法他針對是軍人不是一般人一般人其實回歸外患罪就已經有很多種類型了 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6425.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6453.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
但是我們這一次在於效忠表示這件事是一到齊這個刑度的平衡上面有沒有想要再考慮看看跟委員說明一下有關於我們的刑度我們其實是考量整個違反效忠國家執事罪商所有的犯罪一個態樣跟他所生的危害然後參考一個刑度的一個集據表我們是有參考這樣所以訂出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6453.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6475.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我觉得在逐条的时候我们或许可以再深入一下因为我如果单单只看陆海工军刑罚我觉得那个刑度设计看起来是没问题它符合这个本来陆海工军刑罚的级距但因为外患罪它反而没有那个军人的身份它都可以适用嘛那在外患罪这一部分的刑度设计其实很高那其实这有两种方向一个就是我们陆海工军刑罚这边我们不动就是按照这次修法还是用这个一到七 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6476.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6500.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但反而外患那邊可能要做一個相對應的調整那我也不是說外患這要減輕因為外患這減輕非常奇怪外患是一件很嚴重的事情所以這是我在這一個後面有提出來的就是說你看我們現在有陳平時期我們有戰爭時期中間有這種灰色地帶就是可能接近戰爭了可能這個衝突變多了那我們現在等於是針對軍人這個部分這一次在這邊要討論這個OK |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6502.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6526.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
其他的比如說民選公職公務員等等之類的這個還沒有納入這可能只能回到一般的外患罪那就會變成說我們等於是處理了其中一塊但其他塊沒有處理這當然這不是國防部的事情這應該是整個司法法制的事情但我的意見就是說因為今天通敵還有今天要效忠等等的類型太多了然後身分也很多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6526.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6546.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以如果我们要做的事情很有可能是这其实我已经提出来了就是看司法法治能不能够看在接下来提出就是我们的外患罪应该做一些刑度上的从轻到重的修正因为它可能有比较轻微的有可能很严重的那这个如果按照不同的类型先做分类再按照不同的身份就是回到我刚刚上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6547.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6568.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
可能元首的 政黨的負責人的政務官的 公務員的退休這一塊其實最近都有在處理這是在另外一包會處理所以等於是我們等於有處理軍人跟退休軍公教政兩包其他這些目前來講如果沒有相對應的處理的話有可能會有點失衡就是我們剛剛講的你跟外患罪比較之下陸海工軍刑罰有可能過輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6569.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6596.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以在这样的一个情况之下希望就是说我们在接下来的时候这一个赶快修过去之后其他的能够做一些相对应的修正这边是一个建议那我知道今天司法院的这个邢士林副厅长也在法务部的检察司司长也在所以但我就没有要回应但是就是我觉得这个接下来可能要同步的来做那不然的话我们可能没有办法但是会交代说为什么我们就只有针对军人那其他的地方为什么都还没有动那因为时间差不多了以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6598.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6611.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好謝謝沈伯陽委員接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在好我們就來請王弘瑋委員好謝謝主席我請一下國防部副部長以及我們司法院副廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6625.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6645.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好 請中副部長還有我們副廳長好 今天因為我們討論這個陸海空軍刑法第24條那條文只有一條但是尤其現在對我們第一線的國軍弟兄來說尤其這些伊林的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6646.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6649.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
就是可能都在20多歲而已那麼現在不管在網路上或者他們照片上都有可能我們擔心的在這次修法裡面會不會讓他們是不小心或者在完全沒有任何的意識之下觸及了相關的法律而使得他們可能變成要處一年以上的徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6671.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6675.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那所以這個像剛才吳宗憲委員特別提到很多的案例算不算剛才副部長說都看個案那看起來就看個案就變成大家覺得整個的好像變得很虛然後很擔心會不會由我剛才講的這些年輕的藝齡的男子很容易去觸發 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6694.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6712.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那比如說這樣因為我們在講說怎麼樣是屬於效忠方式那比如我們在之前比如說對像曹新成先生他跟他的中國的女朋友在他的手指上大家互刻一個忠誠那請問一下這叫不叫效忠忠誠對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6715.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6727.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
老是說那對於很多的這些年輕的異男他可能跟他的男朋友或者跟他的女朋友來互克一個忠誠然後這有沒有可能處罰所以我覺得這個問題確實要在我們今天要把法律出去之前我們要有很多的討論那我現在先請一下這個副廳長因為我有看到因為剛才看到我們司法院今天提出來的好意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6743.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6769.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那麼這裡面特別提到在你們的報告裡面說效忠的表示含義甚廣為了避免過度擴張可罰性的範圍依舊本條第五項它的補充為就是對敵人為效忠之表示後面應該加上足以生軍事上之不利益者這是你們今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6770.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6791.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
送到我们司法法治委员会的意见那么能不能请副厅长来说明一下为什么今天你们的意见是这样子委员好 就是说就如同我们报告所说就是说效忠是表示它含义是非常广而这个法定型是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6792.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6813.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
聽不清 對於年輕的藝人來說對 是不清我們認為說這樣法律裡面沒有一個明確的定義說什麼叫效忠的表示的話這個部分我們是擔心處罰範圍可能是會過廣所以我們希望說能夠在法官的個案審查也就是說賦予法官一個個案的審查權說 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6814.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6828.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他這樣一個行為有沒有對特定法益就是說軍事上的利益有造成侵害的情形 侵害的危險如果有的話這樣才能夠符合所謂法益保護的核心立法的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6829.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6854.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
對 這樣子的修法會比較就是又符合國防部他們的需求然後在我們在法律上執行起來到時候不要變得說整個的這個處罰變得太廣泛 太抽象對不對對 但是就是說整個政策的決定我們還是會尊重大院的這當然 不然的話我們為什麼要請司法院提供意見好 來 副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6856.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6875.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
剛才應該聽到這個副廳長的說法那麼事實上在我們的立法院法制及針對我們這個法裡面也提出來就是當時你們在這個預告這個法律預告的時候其實是有這個文字的是不是你們在法律預告的時候是有這個文字副部長知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6878.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6899.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
不知道是有這個預告說是有這個文字有這個文字嘛所以他說你後來把它拿掉我不曉得你們為什麼拿掉但是現在司法院也認為應該把這個文字恢復所以你們當時拿掉的理由是什麼跟委員做個說明我們當拿掉最主要的理由就是認為說如果現役軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6900.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6922.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
他对敌人为一个效忠行为的表示其实就已经对于我们的军事安全国家利益产生了实质的危害对啊所以你们基本上是担心产生军事上的危害嘛现役军人效忠敌人就是怕被敌人做一个侵占宣传我刚才在讲效忠我刚才讲我问你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6923.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6935.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
他上面刻忠诚因为你们讲说只要让对方知道他要效忠了他跟一个对方的不管是中国的女朋友男朋友或是我们互相刻一个忠诚算不算他要像敌人 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6937.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6956.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
對啊 要向中共效忠啊他如果跟他女朋友效忠可能是愛意的表達或是什麼可能因為剛才委員講的只是說他是他女朋友男朋友沒有講敵人啊你們認為單身產生軍事上的不利益危害軍事那放到文字裡面有什麼問題放到文字裡有什麼問題報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6960.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6966.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們就認為說其實只要你一對敵人為效忠就表示這個犯行就成立我們是採集成犯的一個態度所以就由你們來做還是要由檢察官事實上的認定然後來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6976.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7003.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我覺得今天司法院也做了一個很中肯的建議也做一個很中肯的建議也就是在法律上要有它的明確性要有它的明確性不要致使很多的一些異難他可能做了一些事情你們認定他是做效忠表示我老師說真的會有一些比較白目一點的或者他很隨性的他可能做這些事情他沒有這個意圖但是你們認為他有這個意圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7005.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7022.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那所以我覺得今天基本上我們基本上我們是同意這樣的一個修法的方向但是讓法律更有明確性讓我們的第一線軍官能夠更有就是他不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7023.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7048.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
很容易的變成有文字域也好網路域也好這個它有一個什麼行動就一下子就要變成觸法然後被判處一年以上的徒刑所以基本上我覺得司法院已經是一個很中肯的建議而且在我們立法院的法治局也做了這樣相關的建議我覺得基本上這個法的一個修正的方向是OK的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7048.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7076.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
但是但是如果你在法律上不夠明確就會有剛才我們很多委員會擔心的事情會擔心的事情說這是不是會變成很容易入人於罪所以我希望國防部能夠像副部長你來你都不曉得有一個這麼重要的文字在這個過程裡面在你們的法條的預告裡面到你們送到立法院裡面竟然突然把它被打掉了我不曉得你們中間有沒有經過相關的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7077.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7100.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
原先已經有做過討論你都不知道我剛才問你你都一副很茫然的樣子是不是所以如果你們連這樣就是今天要除以一年以上徒刑這麼重要的事情你們覺得把這個文字拿掉都無所謂我覺得這對於我們所有在前線一線官兵來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7101.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7115.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
對他們來講在法律上的保障是不夠的所以我基本上我們還是會比較希望能夠採行司法院的意見以上謝謝王宏威委員接下來請林儲英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7131.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7139.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
謝謝主席 我有請司法院刑事廳的顧副廳長還有法務部檢察師的張師長好 我們請副廳長跟師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7144.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7168.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
兩位好 我想要先就一個昨天的這個時事先來詢問一下就是我想這個中共因為可能還台軍演沒想到反而讓台灣的股市傷了三萬點因此乾脆直接公布了所謂台獨頑固分子的名單當然除了這個政治人物之外現在也延伸到了連司法的人員都成為這個所謂台獨打手跟幫兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7169.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7196.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那我們都知道其實相關的這些檢調人員或者是法務人員在針對所謂抓共諜或者是在這個部分其實都非常的努力那麼在就像剛剛為什麼我會從這一題開始是因為在我們在修法的過程當中我們除了就是今天所謂剛剛很多國民黨的委員一直在爭執的所謂什麼效忠敵國但不論如何守護 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7197.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7226.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個台灣的主權跟國家安全是非常重要的只是現在中國的長臂管轄如果延伸到司法人員的時候包括我們今天討論的這個修法一旦司法人員心生恐懼擔心他們以後出國就像剛剛質詢的沈博洋委員一樣還要思考我會不會擔心成為中國長臂管轄然後就直接帶走被消失的人員的時候那麼今天我們修再多的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7226.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7254.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
根本不用去在乎那些文字到底清不清晰清不清楚基本上是不是司法人員是不是就被恫嚇到了那麼當然我還是相信台灣的司法人員的素質跟專業只是面對這樣子已經不是第一起的所謂被列為台獨頑固分子的名單當中現在司法院或是法務部內部有沒有做哪些的這種所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7256.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7262.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
專業跟這些我們的相關的同仁的一種進一步的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7267.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7291.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
謝謝委員催訓那跟委員報告就是說目前司法院針對這個國安或軍事的專業的部分都有設置專庭跟專股那這個專庭專股的法官他每一年呢都要去這個受訓那這個受訓的時數是12個小時那另外我們從109年一直到現在我們有辦了這個每一年都有辦一到兩場一個國安軍事的一個專業的一個訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7295.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7301.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個專業訓練可以增加法官對於國安的意識的提升這個部分是我們在提升法官專業性所做的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7302.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7325.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好 其實基本上我要問的不是國安議事的問題啊我相信我們的司法人員的專業跟國安議事不會有問題但是現在如果當同樣的出現在司法人員的時候有沒有其他相互的防護的機制包括他們在協助國安案件的時候那麼在這個部分你們有沒有啟動什麼相關跟國安單位彼此的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7327.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7355.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
就是司法人員自己本身的安全啦感謝委員的關心針對昨天中國發布的新聞本部也發布了新聞稿就是要嚴正的捍衛我國司法人員的人身安全以及捍衛我國的司法主權針對我們同仁偵辦國安案件的時候遭受到這些的壓力我們也跟相關的單位密切的合作來保障我們同仁的人身安全以上報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7355.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7382.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以我還是希望在這個部分真的是對於台灣的司法我們今天講這個修法如果說司法人員沒有穩住的時候那說實話修再多的法規都沒有用因為確實在很多檢調單位在辦國安案件的時候其實都很怕調查得很辛苦但是後來在過程中承受壓力但是這個壓力竟然是來自對岸的壓力那就真的是很可笑了另外當然我要回到今天的修法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7383.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7406.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
剛剛國民黨的委員都在用一種所謂錯誤的定謀方式比如說宣誓效忠我自己個人認為啦男歡女愛宣誓效忠如果不忠的是對他自己的另外一半這根本跟敵對政權無關是吧這應該就是我們在所謂使用文字上面的部分甚至於剛剛有國民黨的委員提到如果非官不出情那 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7407.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7429.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
軍人最重要所執行的任務不是他的勤務嗎如果他不出勤基本上就像一個立法委員就是坐領乾薪但不省預算這個基本上是薪水小偷這已經不是叛國的問題是工作態度有問題所以我想要請問的謝謝國防部我要請問一下那麼就是如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7431.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7452.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
今天反而是用反戰而不是真的用叛國的時候那麼該怎麼辦因為現在本席曾經就是在另外國防外交委會有提到就是說現在有很多的方法是換一個角度來包裝他沒有要你投降他要你反戰那麼在反戰的定義上面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7453.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7466.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
你身為一個軍人可以反戰嗎應該反戰嗎如果他提供了相關的照片然後成為一個反戰者這個有沒有違反到我們今天相關修法的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7470.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7495.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
委員好 謝謝委員的詢問首先先跟委員說明一下就是如果剛才所講那個非官他因為什麼防寒衣 他不想要出勤其實如果他 我們連隊長對他下達的是軍事上的命令我們軍人就有服從命令的義務如果他不服從是會構成的陸海工軍刑法的抗命罪而不是所謂的降敵罪其實這都各有各的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7496.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7513.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
是 所以我本席為什麼會特別問這個問題是在尋答的過程中有的時候那種特定的定毛而去扭曲甚至於用個案來去曲解這些文字它會影響到我們的修法我們的修法內容過程當中不可能把一千個一百個樣態放上去而這種所謂定毛然後認為這個修法的方向有錯誤的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7520.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7532.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我認為你們身為相關的單位主管機關是必須要在透過詢答的當中要來講清楚就像本席詢問的一樣所謂的反戰那麼身為一個軍人應該反戰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7535.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7556.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
如果你今天身為一個軍人你反戰 你為什麼要當兵軍人不就是為了戰爭而做準備我們不希望戰爭對 是因為剛才在前面的報告已經講軍人就是要克盡職責 保護人民然後效忠國家我們就是要保護國家的安全我們備戰而不拒戰 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7558.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7572.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 所以本席特別期待是說我非常同意這個修法甚至於我在這個修法的部分我認為不應該用個案去來一一做檢視因為這個應該是留給司法單位來做定奪好 謝謝好 謝謝林楚瑩委員接下來我們請翁曉琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7600.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7611.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好 謝謝主席這邊有請副部長副部長請法律師的司長請司長司法院的那個副廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7613.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7637.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
司法院刑事庭副庭長謝謝首先要請教副部長就是因為我想這兩天大家看到F16又出事了全國的人民都非常傷心難過而且也很不捨到現在為止還沒有發現那位失事的飛行員那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7639.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7664.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
事實上就是這些年來國防部明明就是花了大把的錢去買新型的F16然後也花了錢去要去加裝自動防撞的系統甚至也說要更新MMC迷航導向的電腦系統等等可是到目前為止到底這些裝備有沒有已經送到我國了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7666.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7685.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我們F16當時是訂了多少架的飛機新型的F16報告委員先跟委員回覆您現在問的這是140架那這是在奉展我們這個案子裡面來說多少架 麻煩大聲一點140架新型的F16 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7689.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7707.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
新型的F-16是66架新型的F-1666架然後你剛說140架是整個的我們現在討論的NMC的失效也好跟Auto Kicks這個系統的加裝也好那是在舊購的飛機上也就是目前我們已經在執行戰備的飛機上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7709.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7725.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以都已經換裝完畢了嗎還是說這個東西都沒有還沒有那為什麼一直都沒有換裝完畢這個部分我們也持續的在努力所謂的在努力是什麼是東西都還沒有到位都還沒有送到就是相關的系統設備都還沒有到台灣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7726.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7754.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
范委員其實這兩個案子是有相關聯的因為我們先前所買的這個F16 Block兩棟的部分它因為後續的需求它要做能力的性能的提升武器的夾傷的新的採購包含我們現在所討論的Auto Geek這個系統的部分因為它是新增加能力你們當時有沒有訂定履約的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7756.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7762.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
報告委員都有都有所以現在全部都已經延宕了對不對目前這個案子是我們都已經延遲了也就是在履約的時間之內這些東西都沒有到貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7770.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7791.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
該安裝的也沒有安裝完備對吧剛剛有跟前面有說明的那目前它主要如果是你現在問的是AutoKicks的部分的話它主要有三個部分第一個部分限速要更新第二個部分它的非超軟體要提升還有它的非超的電腦要完成總之就是都沒有完成嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7792.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7810.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
目前其實都有進度都有進度但是沒有完成我現在講的是就是在我們契約訂定的旅行的期間之內他沒有完成簡單來說他就是一個沒有旅行這契約沒有旅行抱怨他執行的年度是從109年到117年 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7812.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7836.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以我們目前已經要求美方提前在116年的第四季希望它能夠把它完成交給我們可是當時應該是分批安裝分批交貨吧現在是一部都沒有對不對我們訂了66架的F16現在有多少架已經到台灣了報告委員這是兩個問題好沒關係就是剛剛前面講的那個系統的部分到現在為止都沒有一部有更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7837.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7857.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
系統它要先佈線之後然後做飛超軟體的提升再做飛超電腦的構改所以從107年到現在115年對 都沒有任何的完成沒有任何的系統完成我們這個構型的飛機它是比較舊的是八個兩棟 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7862.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7877.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那我本身是飛F16的那我們的飛超系統是所謂的這個類比式的飛超那美方他的飛機是數位式的飛超那美方目前國民兵他們也要做提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7877.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7897.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我想要講的是就是說你基本上整個的軍購契約它就是沒有完成你當時沒有符合契約的旅行條件而且也給付不完全在這樣的情況之下美方看起來是明顯的它有拖延整個給付的進度這有沒有任何的損害賠償的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7898.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7924.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
包委員這部分我們是採軍購方式來執行是由美方來代替我們執行所謂的專案管理的這個部分那其實所以你委託他他竟然是受委託人那麼對於受委託人他如果沒有依照委託人的指示去執行相關的契約條件的時候你們都沒有任何的處罰機制嗎沒有任何的罰款機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7925.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7939.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們都透過現行的三層架構然後跟美方持續的請他們來協助我們做改善你們只是持續但是你沒有任何的處罰其實沒有任何的罰款其實難怪美方都不甩嘛這就是現在很嚴重的問題我不客氣的講這些年來的幾架的軍機出事國防部是難辭其咎 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7947.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7972.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
就是因為你們怠惰失職不積極的去執行履約的條件也不積極的去監督去要求你們所謂的美方作為一個受委託人所以才會造成這些嚴重的意外我們每個人都不希望看到我們的國軍弟兄有任何的差錯有發生這樣子不幸的這種非安的這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7973.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7999.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們有一句話說我不殺柏仁柏仁因我而死現在國防部的情況就變成說你們不是要去害這非官可是因為你們的怠惰不作為失職而造成我們這些非官傷亡報委員這個部分我沒辦法接受您的說法我認為說你們真的是要積極的檢討你們的作為是能夠讓國軍弟兄安心嗎報委員我們自己你們沒有辦法好好的去照顧國軍弟兄因為現在還要來修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8000.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8015.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
然後意圖給這些國軍弟兄們扣帽子去箝制他們的思想去箝制他們的一些行為他們可能根本沒有意圖可是因為你們現在的這個提案對敵人效忠表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8017.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8036.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這已經構成了軍刑法的犯罪這是兩件事情但是它有關係我的意思是說你們沒有好好照顧國軍弟兄你們反而另外又在現行的陸海空軍刑法本來就有降敵罪就投敵罪你們現在增加的這個第五項就連司法院的書面報告都說你們這個是意圖什麼意圖去擴大可罰性的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8049.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8068.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個規定基本上是很嚴重的這未來會有多少的我們的國軍地修可能因此被扣帽子所以我就今天問嘛如果說我跟委員做兩點的說明第一個部分是有關這個布拉格良工部長先聽我說完我接下來要問你什麼叫做對敵人效忠表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8070.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8084.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
今天如果有一個國軍弟兄在他的床頭前或是他的手機桌面貼了一個解放軍的美女照片這像敵人笑中表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8085.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8101.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我两件事情跟委员说明第一个有关这一个凤展专案这个构改你不用想前面的专案我现在希望你就我的问题回答因为他这个延伸前面的部分现在跟美国民兵同步在构改所以他的进度 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8101.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8128.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
副部長我希望你對於我剛剛問的問題如果一個國軍弟兄他的手機桌面是個解放軍的美女或者是他看到大陸現在的閱兵出事的他的軍事武器非常精良他在影片上面按個讚這個算不算是對敵人效忠表示他要有具體的行為去顯示而且依據個案的不同來做一個相關的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8129.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8135.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好那副部長你剛剛講的重點要具體的行為顯示他的這樣的行為可能會對於軍事上造成不利益對不對因為要對根據他的翻譯以及他的具體行為依據個案來檢討所以你們在這個條文裡面你們有加上他有沒有這個意圖嗎你有顯示他是意圖嗎以你們現在的規定這叫什麼這叫抽象危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8155.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8161.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
他只要是他没有不见得要有意图他就有这个行为的表示就可能会受到处罚这样合理吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8164.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8187.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
來 請司長法務司司長回答跟委員說明一下鮑委員其實我們跟司法院大概最主要的看法有點不同就是是不是要足以生軍事上是不利益但是因為其實我們考量是其實現役軍人他本來就是要效忠國家你用這言語說其他方式效忠國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8188.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8196.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
完全同意要效忠國家可是以所謂的效忠敵人的表示它是個非常抽象不確定的概念就像我剛剛說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8199.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8218.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
給大陸的這個看到他們的閱兵的影片按個讚或是分享轉傳這個構不構成對敵人的消動表示如果委員現在所設定的想定就是說他只有按讚或是把解放軍的照片當作他手機的封面我可以很明確跟委員講如果說調查結果就是這樣他不會構成這一條罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8220.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8236.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
但是我們國軍你本來言行就是要忠於國家你這些可能會影響到國人對我們國軍的看法可能會影響軍域我們或許會用陸海工軍懲罰法對他的行為來做以適當的懲處而不會用刑法陸海工軍刑法對他苛責這樣子是可能違反軍紀軍律是那麼有嚴重到必須要上綱到用刑法來治罪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8245.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8262.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
如果是說他已經很明確的向敵人表示效忠這樣子就不行所以我就說嘛什麼叫做明確具體向敵人效忠你們不是陸海空軍刑法用言語舉動文字讀畫這個難道不夠誠嗎所以師長我們都學法律的大家都知道你們現在規定下去的條文它的影響範圍有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8272.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8282.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
甚至可能撕到你以後你唱個大陸的一個流行歌曲你可能都會被扣上對敵人效忠的表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8283.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8309.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
什麼叫做舉動你們這裡面的規定以言語 舉動 任何的科技方式來做對敵人效忠你光是怎麼去定義那個敵人你現在告訴我你現在敵人我們哪一個法律裡面有定義敵人跟委員說明一下我們入海空軍刑法第十條與我國交戰或對峙之國家或團體就是我們的敵人那按照司法實務現在的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8309.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8339.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
中共就是跟我們武力對峙的一個團體他們就是我們的敵人這屬於對峙對不對對 武力對峙那現在就是說你匡列了這個敵人的範圍之後接下來就是說他有沒有意圖嘛這意圖很重要啊否則就像我剛剛講的他可能沒有意圖 沒有故意可是就被這個檢察官或是未來被這個就是可能就會因此被扣上這個罪名 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8340.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8368.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個基本上是對於我們的國軍弟兄來講他隨時都會處於一個很不安穩因為你不知道法律未來我們的法院會怎麼樣去看待這個事情就像我說的你們已經有陸海空軍懲罰法了有一些違規違紀的行為可以透過懲罰法去處理就可以了有必要上綱到刑法嗎刑法就是強調什麼要法律明確性明確原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8371.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8386.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
是 跟委員報告一下我們這個條文的設計本來就是為敵人為效忠表示他前面有言語舉動文字圖畫或什麼什麼等方式要用這些方式表出來它才會構成如果你只有在心中自己去想說你想要做什麼事情真的不會構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8388.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8403.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
從你們現在的法條設計裡面看不出來你們不處罰那種心中或者說我自己的一些行為就像我剛剛講的掛照片 唱流行歌曲我按讚分享等等的這些看起來以後都會被你們處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8404.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8427.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
而且還抓去關牢抓去坐牢所以我認為因為現在專委這邊我強烈的建議這個條文它影響很大本期希望能夠開公聽會能夠好好把這個案子講清楚大家來看看如果說有認為要訂定的必要那麼我們要提出更嚴謹的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8429.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8455.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
更嚴謹的修法因為畢竟我們現在已經在陸海空軍刑法裡面有降敵罪有投敵罪這是規定在這個整個章節裡面違反效忠國家的章節所以我們如果說要進一步要去對於這種具體的像敵人效忠的表示而且他要確實是要產生對於國家對於軍隊有不利益的有具體傷害的我們才處罰那這樣我覺得才完整啊所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8458.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8481.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
議題本席希望召委能夠來開這個公聽會以上謝謝好謝謝翁小玲委員的詢答接下來再來我來先做一個會議程序的一個宣告我們稍後在吳委員私要詢答完畢以後我們先休息五分鐘接續我們來請羅志強委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8490.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8491.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
請羅委員有請國防部副部長請副部長副部長今天我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8517.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8545.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
審的陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案本席就如實來引用來念一段我們的司法院的修法意見他說關於行政院含情審議陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案效忠之表示其含義甚廣認同嗎效忠的表示含義會不會甚廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8547.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8563.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
是吧 對不對謝謝我們副部長很誠實 含義甚廣也就是說它其實處在一個相當不確定的概念那為避免過度擴張可乏性範圍是依舊本條第五項所載點點點對敵人為效忠之表示者 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8570.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8595.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
增加事性犯要件例如補充 框號 點點點對敵人為效忠之表示足以生軍事上之不利益者他在本案嚴厲階段其實也曾經採用過這個文字那如果不足以生軍事上之不利益我先到這邊 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8597.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8608.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
您覺得司法院應該要加上一個適性犯要件就是要增加足以生軍事上之不利益者這點副部長看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8611.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8638.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為按照憲法跟國防法的規定現役軍人對於國家效忠的義務有明文的規定那考量整個現役軍人如果對這個敵人效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的這個嚴禁的話會使部隊的機率跟軍事安全會有嚴重的一個損害我告訴你 我跟副部長講你的考慮司法院這次真的很周延他也把他放進去講他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8641.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8668.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
如果不足以伸军事上之不利益他不是说不足以伸军事上之不利益就没有处罚的可能性他可以用陆海空军惩罚法锁定情务上或情务外违纪行为加以规范即可此等层级化处理依较符合比例原则以及刑法之最后手段性 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8669.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8697.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
來 請教部長你覺得呢因為懲罰法跟刑法是兩個不一樣的一個形態我剛剛有跟委員做說明就是現役軍人他的職務有特殊性那針對敵人對於效忠的言論以刑法來限制這一個判斷的標準會是個案的情節來做認定所以以刑法來限制的話他基本上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8698.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8711.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
合理的我先跟副部長說基本上我覺得司法院的思考算是相當周延第一個剛剛你也承認效忠之表示含義甚廣剛剛你也認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8712.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8740.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
他正是因為效忠之表示含義甚廣所以後面要加一個所謂的適性犯的要件免得這個含義過廣到時候可能會流淡傷及無辜所以才會加上要足以生軍事上之不利益其實這個邏輯很簡單如果沒有生軍事上之不利益請問要上綱到刑法的意義何在但如果你說軍人就是不一樣我接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8741.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8764.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
軍人不一樣你要有一個很高的準則來去看待軍人那也在司法院應屆當中說你們還是做得到啊也就在陸海空軍懲罰法所定的勤務外勤務上及勤務外違紀行為加以規範就可以所以我還是一句話啦這個事情我覺得大家出來討論很好但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8765.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8791.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不需要今天在司法院的這樣的一個這麼清楚的一個所謂規範層級架構司法邏輯上我覺得不裡面真的可以好好在審酌就是說你今天到底要用什麼樣的法律要規範到什麼樣強度我最後做一個簡單的一個東西剛我看到司長在回應光小英委員他舉了幾個行為太陽 按讚或是唱個什麼歌或是做個什麼事情或是說今天去誇 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8792.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8811.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
中國大陸某些東西建設得好像很不錯諸如此類點點點那你剛剛意思是說這樣子不足以構成你的修法後的這個所謂的陸海空軍刑法的這所違法的一個狀態對不對你剛剛意思是說不會違反嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8811.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8831.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
是 如果這很明確的是這樣子的話是不會進入到我們這次修法的條文當中可是問題就來了那我剛跟委員抱一下因為委員剛才所講司法院我時間到了 我先問個問題你剛剛講的回答我先停在一個地方我就問司長一個問題嘛你是檢察官嗎你是法官嗎你不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8832.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8859.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以换言之你并不能在个案上当中你的保证是没有任何的所谓的实质的意义的因为你只是一个法律解释的一个面向而已这是为什么今天司法院他今天要跟大家讲说你这效忠的表示含义过广我说真的今天我也可以认为说按个赞就是效忠为什么不能这样认定呢其实效忠还是有定义不是 我跟你讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8860.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8863.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
其实就是要支持服从忠诚的行为 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8866.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8888.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我跟委員報告其實我們主要是效忠敵人嘛還是回頭問你一句話嘛我不是說只要效忠就好啊不是 你效忠的定義過廣所以才用所謂的四信犯要件加以所謂局限它的效果嘛是 跟委員報告加四信犯這個選擇問題跟我委員報告一下就是說這個我們國防部不是說不能討論謝謝啊 可以討論對 可以討論那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8890.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8910.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那因为我们待会儿完之后会有进入逐条的时候我们可以再好好的讨论一下看看委员的指导这样子好 很好啦我觉得这样态度就很好啦基本上不要说是铁板一块说真的我刚刚跟我刚刚跟司长跟我们的副部长讲我上面所说的所有一切还不是我的主张喔谁的主张 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8912.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8935.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
部長誰主張 市長誰主張司法院的建議對嘛 所以因此我回頭講這還是其中一條它裡面關於所謂的陰謀犯部分我覺得它也寫得很好但因為時間有限所以我也不佔用大家時間希望這件事我剛也認同我們汪小林委員講的就是主席如果可以的話能不能就多開幾場公聽會那聽聽大家意見民進黨最喜歡開公聽會就讓大家開公聽會討論以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8940.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8947.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
好 謝謝羅志強委員因為只有一個條文這個正反意見這個大家也沒辦法以現在的結構也沒辦法誰都強度關山一定會讓大家盡情的去發表大家的一個意見接下來請吳委員是要來做詢答慢慢來 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8968.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8983.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
謝謝主席 請中副部長那我也請法務部檢察司 張司長今天兩個主題 一個我們來探討司法主權 一個部分來講防範滲透就是今天的修法 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8985.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9007.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
當然就順著這個昨天被公布的所謂的台獨打手或者是台獨頑固分子中國要展現他的長臂管轄他的跨境鎮壓就是無所不用其極從行政官員到立法委員我本人我也是被國台辦公布的台獨打手幫兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9008.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9031.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我還沒有晉級啦我還沒有從台獨打手幫兇成功晉級為台獨頑固分子我還會持續努力被中國這樣子的一個鎖定我想就是我們做對了很多事我們捍衛國家的主權我會持續努力但是對於我們的司法人員來進行這樣子的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9032.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9048.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
之前已經有三加一三位檢察官包括偵辦柯文哲案的檢察官也被列為台獨打手而昨天是針對我們的這個陳樹儀檢察官所以我要就教於法務部我非常肯定部長昨天第一時間他所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9050.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9074.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個我們絕對要捍衛我們司法從業從事人員的權益然後國家的司法主權是不容強害的我想部長講到了重點我非常同意您剛講的我們要保護強化保護我們的司法人員第二個也要給他們很強的一個教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9075.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9096.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們依國家的法治來進行任何司法的宣判基於證據基於專業這都是受到國家的保護跟社會的支持的但是中國這種要傷及司法主權這就有它政治的意圖那我來看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9097.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9127.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我也非常詫異某位蔡正元先生因為三中案正式的宣判即將要入獄服刑昨天鄭麗文國民黨的黨主席特別刻意的頒發實踐一等獎章我覺得很訝異國民黨要成為違法黨國民黨是在鼓勵犯罪嗎包括傅坤祺總召也說要大賣就要背幾條犯罪的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9128.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9137.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這種言論這種作為是不是也都在挑戰我們的司法來市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9138.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9158.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
跟委員報告那檢察官針對這個有任何犯罪嫌疑的這個行為我們都會據以偵辦那對於這個經過司法判決的這個確定案件呢那該執行的我們就會依法執行很好所以我們要支持檢察官因為法務部主管我們的檢查系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9159.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9184.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
依法執行證據跟專業是他們最強的偵辦的支持跟後盾所以司法的公信力要被摧毀要被削弱甚至長臂管轄來危及台灣的司法主權跟在野黨聯手要削弱國人對於司法的正當性其實我認為這是一套劇本 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9185.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9198.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我們就要看得清楚理個明白但是我們持續做對的事下一頁但是在國軍也是一樣副部長我們也曾經有兩批被國台辦所發布的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9199.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9221.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
罪名是網路攻擊滲透有20名我們的這個資通電軍的成員另外一批呢是去年10月罪名是謀劃分裂國家18名台灣的新戰大隊我們的國軍啊剛剛從司法官司法人員到國軍也受到中國這樣的跨境鎮壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9223.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9247.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
還沒進入今天的主題之前就讓我們看到一件事情中國的滲透是非常的具體一點都不抽象對不對是剛剛在野黨委員一直在說對敵效忠好抽象喔那我倒要問這些敵方境外敵對勢力對我國司法人員的長臂管轄對我國國軍人員來 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9251.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9264.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
進行他的職務忠誠為國家做他該做的事情要被這樣殺雞儆猴敵人的意圖再明確也不過了一點都不抽象 不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9266.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9284.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以我們今天的法律的規定規範修法的方向不是再明確也不過的事嗎背景就在這裡嗎副部長我們對於這些新戰大隊跟資通電軍的成員們我們是不是也如同司法部門一樣給予必要的保護 必要的教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9284.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9314.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
目前已經有採取必要的措施好那下一頁所以我再次用這個表格來告訴大家共諜的滲透軍人 軍方佔五成以上的比例所以再具體也不過了一點都不抽象就是今天我們為什麼要啟動修法再具體也不過了當敵人的意圖這麼的清晰為什麼有在野黨的委員持續要來做這些非常模糊的操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9314.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9326.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我們都看得非常清楚下一頁過去司法院釋字430號很具體的說軍人與國家有公法上的職務關係負有高度的忠誠義務這沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9328.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9349.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
如果簽署校中書拍攝影片承諾在暫時為祖國效力就已經構成了違背職務的行為剛剛在黨委員一直說司法院今天的意見寫得很好他們今天突然從反對司法院鬥臭司法到今天都說司法院寫得好棒棒那我也請這些藍白的委員看看大法官已經解釋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9350.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9376.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
如果為敵來進行這些事情是不是就是違背職務嘛所以我提供大法官的解釋給國防部也可以做論述的參考而第二 貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪是現在檢察官僅能夠拿來偵辦的一個法條這跟對敵效忠黑就是天地差很大嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9377.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9392.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以因為現有的法規的不足以及大法官的解釋已經清楚的講了軍人跟國家公法上的職務關係具有高度的忠誠義務都驗證了我們今天的修法是沒有問題的勇敢去做下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9393.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9417.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
案例在這裡喔2019年有這個陸軍部部訓部上校向德恩遭中國吸收2019年開始收賄簽署投降承諾書所以只能夠用貪污治罪條例判對不對這就是今天我們為什麼要修法因為沒有對稱的法條在陸海控軍刑法裡頭簽頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9420.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9440.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
副部長收賄然後簽署投降承諾書是不是再具體也不過了是不是就是對敵投降效忠對不對所以這哪裡抽象他有清楚的行動啊有清楚的言語啊有清楚的表示啊哪裡抽象再下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9441.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9458.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
案例在這裡2021年又有這麼多位向敵人表示疏成而且是具體拍星戰的投降影片的這位陸俊芳跟吳志朋他們再具體也不過了對不對拍星戰影片為匪宣傳哪裡抽象 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9461.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9471.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
但是這些人檢察官也只能夠用貪污治罪條例去辦他很奇怪下一頁所以說今天的修法只有一條只有一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9473.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9495.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我不曉得這個會期萬事再爭議的法案再大的新立法都可以敬附二讀不討論不議而決現在為了陸海空軍洗髮一條要要求召開好多場公聽會藍白委員實在是很雙標只有一個條文如果藍白委員對於這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9496.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9524.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
新增一項單條新增一項有任何的意見歡迎提對案有任何的意見提出你具體的主張而不是擋著不休這是我的看法所以說提高不盡其責想敵者的刑責要提高增定不盡其責想敵者之欲被犯之處處罰我支持還有要增定最後一項對敵人效忠之表示罪這個表示再清楚也不過了法律只能夠定原則規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9526.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9547.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
具體的內容還是要交給我們的執法人員檢察官法官在偵辦的時候去認定他的行為法律不可能寫到很細剛剛委員說的我按了一個讚唱了一首歌手機放了一個解放軍美女的照片會不會就是對狄孝中就會被判不會嘛你們講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9549.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9559.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我倒是要想到過去唱了什麼歌講了什麼話會被抓去判刑的就是過去在台灣長期一黨執政的中國國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9561.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9589.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
白色恐怖就是這樣青瓜抓起來 青瓜有勁哥 不能講台語那種白色恐怖 倒是過去國民黨委員他們要去檢討 這是國民黨的專善喔所以最後 司法院的專業意見 我非常尊重但我也希望在野黨的委員今天突然一夕之間 把司法院捧得你好棒棒那麼拜託 不要再來推翻憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9590.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9600.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
的憲法解釋吧不要再來什麼搞對五位大法官的提告吧一夕之間為了阻擋你們不敢得罪中國的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9601.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9630.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
然後拿司法院的這些解釋司法院的解釋也沒有錯誤啊他提醒了立法院在審查的時候要去更細緻的去做很多的思考但司法院沒有推翻這個修法不應當進行討論不是嗎所以今天突然把司法院捧得這麼高的委員那也謝謝你們終於肯定司法院的法律專業所以最終我想司法的主權不容強害我們的國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9633.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9650.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
對國家忠誠的義務也不能夠有任何的退讓這個條文我認為非常具體毫不抽象而且法律就是規範原則性如果內容這些到底有哪些東西修法時候歡迎在一檔委員提出你的版本來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9651.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9668.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
來具體討論而不是把抽象拿作一個阻卻修法的理由而至於如果任何的軍人違反了這些條例的內容那就交給司法人員去就事時去釐清不是靠法律文字就要把細節都定得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9669.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9692.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這是我們立法者的基本ABC啊所以我支持我們的教委我們就照程序走然後絕對會讓在野黨的委員充分表達意見只有一個條文 只有一個條文比起在野黨進赴二讀一整部新的立法都可以不一而決可以讓在野黨的委員好好思考他們到底如何踐踏了台灣的國會民主辛苦大家 繼續加油 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9694.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9700.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好 謝謝吳斯堯委員那我們就按照先前的宣告休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9732.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9736.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9778.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9801.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9830.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9838.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9846.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9860.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9882.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9902.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9903.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9927.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9946.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9953.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9961.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9973.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
歡迎大家歡迎光臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9988.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9996.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10012.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10020.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10038.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10044.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10057.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10076.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10146.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10151.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
來現在繼續開會我們現在請馬文君委員來做懸檔謝謝主席麻煩請國防部副部長還有司法院副部長還有司法院副店長法務部城市長馬委員好副部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10179.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10195.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
謝謝我們今天就陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案的這個部分那因為這一次修法要提高這個降敵者的刑期不過我們在現在我們看到這個修法的法條裡面其實我們看到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10200.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10220.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
可能比較模糊的部分因為剛剛有委員提到很多的個案可是我們在訂定法律的時候我們不會因為個案然後去修正這樣的法律我們看到行政院或者其他委員的提案裡面他有寫到因為我們增加的部分就是以言語舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10225.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10240.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
其他方式对敌人为效忠之表示者他的行其处一年以上七年以下有其徒刑就这个部分所谓的其他方式去对敌人表忠这个有什么样的具体的一个想法吗什么叫其他方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10246.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10260.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
可以有人可以稍微說明一下嗎你用其他方式是連有些如果是開玩笑或者被惡意檢舉比如說你在拍照的時候可能有其他的一個對象在我們的認定上他覺得是我們的敵人那這樣子如果說被檢舉然後提供這樣的證據資料因為你其他方式是什麼它太模糊如果我們訂的是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10272.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10281.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
本來軍人他受到的制約就是比較多所以我們有這一個部分可是你像這樣的一個狀況其他方式這個很寬很廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10285.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10309.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個部分有沒有比較具體的一個說法不然為什麼要寫這個然後你們提這樣的一個法律案是 鮑委員跟委員說明其他方式其實我們有參照刑法的一些相關條文的一個立法例其他方式就是有關於言語舉動文字圖畫 科技電子記錄或是科技方法但是其他方法也是要大概是 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10310.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10325.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
不是採用這些方法但是也是跟這些方法大概也差不多的方法只是我們現在沒有想到一個比較具體的東西是用一個概括補儀的一個方式把它列舉進去在刑法的相關體力也是有這樣的一個那個立法體力 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10327.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10348.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
不叫而殺為之虐今天你們讓所有的軍人如果在不知情的情況之下你犯了這樣子的一個錯誤你可能認為因為有時候你們當時為什麼要廢掉軍法就是認為說他可能有疑慮他不太一樣可是為什麼那時候司法跟軍法他會有不一樣的他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10350.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10358.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
任務或者他的認知因為在軍方有時候他的狀況是比較不一樣的不然我來舉幾個例子因為其他方法如果這個法官認定這樣那個法官認定這樣這對軍人是非常不公平的這個我們覺得非常非常這是不可行的我們想請教一下如果說像我們就舉以前的例子因為我們在這個法條裡面其實也是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10378.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10396.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
以前空軍黑貓中隊飛行員他依任務飛往大陸地區執行任務的時候飛機遭解放軍擊中降落在匪區他受傷被俘或者他的部隊在跟解放軍作戰的時候依令或戰況深入敵區但進遠決的時候被俘這算降底或投底嗎當然不算這都不算對 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10403.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10405.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以你們現在純粹所以你們現在純粹的就是剛剛舉的那些案例而已是嗎只是因為剛剛舉的那些案例就有拍照啦有西戲啊什麼這樣是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10418.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10444.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
就是說以向德恩這個案例為例他就向中共簽寫了一個投降誓約書或是有其他案例他拍影片宣誓效忠那應該你就把它明確化因為我們剛剛說的其他方式這個部分我們認為是不合理的我再請教好了今天近期解放軍對台軍演海巡署被質疑解放軍還沒有離台 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10445.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10466.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
离台海之前就去参会为例这个海巡署是军方的单位我们通常都称它为第二海军它甚至由平转战是随时都要准备的那有决策者认为在12月30号解放军的军舰海警亭已经离开近线制水域就像我们简报幼图里面所显示的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10466.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10472.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
可是在國防部所以他認為在12月31號中午辦理這個參會把相關單位的主管管把他帶離部隊跟住所這是可以的可是如果我們看到國防部他的報告在他的陳述就是簡報左圖依據國防部掌握的訊息12月31號除了原來的14艘共艦以外他又增加了3艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10496.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10515.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區總共有共建17艘跟海警船8艘於我應變區內活動如該決策者是否符合修訂條文所述為不盡其應盡之責而想抵制預備或因謀犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10519.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10534.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這算不算因為如果在我們這麼重要面對在共軍在演訓的時候我們把主觀館本來應該要在第一線崗位上面的全部都帶去聚餐這樣子算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10535.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10542.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
要跟委員做一個說明委員這樣的這個假設前提我比較不大理解這不是假設它已經發生過了可是當你們要訂的時候是跟委員報告一下因為你請看清楚我剛剛提到的我左右兩邊海巡說中國的海警船軍艦已經離開我方近線制水域可是國防部這一方面的訊息會更清楚他在12月31號甚至都還有更多的共艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10563.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10591.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
在我們的周邊還在做這樣子的一個演訓所以就這個部分它算不算是為不盡其應盡之責是 跟委員說明一下在右邊的話中國海警船軍艦離開我方近縣制水域這近縣制水域應該只是金馬那個近縣制水域那我們左下方12月31號由西太平洋駛入我東部應變區它這跟近縣制水域好像沒有什麼相關聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10592.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10617.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
就是他們還在啊所以你把他帶離開了你不是海巡的海巡的相關的任務不是只在禁限制水域他是號稱第二海軍他在很多的預算上面他也是提高很多都是要面臨這樣子的一個因應的狀況所以當你帶開的時候尤其是一級主管你可以去做指揮的所有人員都去聚餐算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10618.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10633.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟委員報告一下委員講這個我沒辦法做評論因為海巡他們自己認你沒有辦法做評論你要學這樣的法之前你應該要很明確的讓大家知道不盡情因盡之責而降敵罪是你要有主觀的意思是要投降敵人 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10635.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10638.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這一種的你們好意思在這裡講這樣子好意思這麼說當你有這樣的權責可是你拜乎職責你就是有想敵的打算了因為你明知道你不可以走如果是這樣那你是針對特定人嘛對不對 你是針對特定人還有主觀翻譯客觀事實嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10655.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10663.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我想要你不能去猜測當事人是怎麼樣的所以你今天這是你今天講的這句話可是你在這一條條文裡面為不盡其應盡之責這個可能就有降底的一個可能性今天如果有些你不盡你應該的責任消極不抵抗然後你主觀上要投降敵人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10678.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10695.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
你本來就應該要在現場你應該要做這樣的指揮第一線的什麼叫投降他沒有他拍攝影片他也沒有他如果稱讚或再讓你歡笑他也不見得投降敵人可是你認定有就是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10695.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10698.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
今天我們特別舉出這樣的例子不是你幫某些人去做這樣的解釋因為我們看到了法條我們有這樣的疑慮你有可能這樣的發生的時候今天如果某些人你看不順眼你可能會覺得他就是有想起的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10711.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10720.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
當有某些人你覺得他可能不是那你就說他可能沒有想體的可能這對我們來說法條件最重要的精神就是他的原質他的我們修訂這樣的法律的一個旨意其實很重要的要達到他的效果而不是任由所有的人去做這樣片面的解釋我們現在已經對司法很多沒有信心是因為有很多的案例已經讓大家覺得就是因人設事因人而為 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10740.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10751.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個部分我們還是希望可以有比較妥善的一個說明而不是你去幫當事人做心理的一個解釋謝謝馬文俊委員的詢答這個市長腦袋瓜很清楚來 接下來請陳培宇委員來做詢答好 謝謝主席有請國防部 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10770.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10790.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
來 請副部長副部長辛苦了陳委員好我覺得你很辛苦的原因是你早上很可憐你一直在聽很多滑坡邏輯例如說對中國解放軍美女按讚例如說聽中國的流行歌像是前幾年台灣的中小學非常流行唱一首歌叫做小蘋果 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10791.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10813.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
如果按照剛剛前面國民黨委員的發言邏輯所有當年一起唱小蘋果的甚至這幾年有政治人物一起唱孤勇者的可能都會用國民黨的邏輯我再說一次用國民黨的邏輯都要受到這個影響我實在是說國民黨就是在欺騙人民在用滑坡邏輯要誤讀這個修法好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10815.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10840.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
副部長我跟你討論其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的質詢其實相關的新聞事件他們不敢拿出來說的只有民進黨委員敢拿出來說包含手上有第一個士官兵迎屈揮五星旗拍投降影片這個就非常具體了拍的影片是談投降甚至在迎屈前面還有收賄拍投降影片洩密共諜案其實相關起訴的案例也都有了而且他們的行為非常非常的具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10841.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10846.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以我們絕對認同今天你們所提出來的修法我想問一下到目前為止你們有相關的數量統計嗎類似像這樣具體的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10854.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10871.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
現在整個案子有七件半道簽約投降書以及刺探機密還有發展組織還有交付個人資料這都非常的清楚交付資料然後拍這些影片然後這些我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10872.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10891.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
國人也都可以理解當一個國軍士官兵他在當兵的期間做這樣的事情我認為國人都看得很清楚全台灣看不清楚的大概只有國民黨委員所以我們來看一下你們今天提出來的修法來下一張我們其實還是很想問如果按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10892.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10920.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
有一些國軍士官兵他們如果對法理上不是這麼了解我想不管是立法院這邊或者是提出修法單位我們都有義務跟有責任跟國軍士官兵說清楚當然我們也很希望後續的修法可以促成我們很在意的事情我們可以改進一些可能性包含穩定軍心啦確保軍人的國家忠誠那這個部分我不知道你們這裡怎麼看關於這個修法後穩定軍心確保軍人對於國家的忠誠這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10920.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10948.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那確實是這樣子因為依照這個憲法跟國防法的規定軍人對國家效忠義務有明文的規定也考量現役軍人對敵人為效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的嚴禁會使部隊的紀律跟軍事安全遭受到嚴重的損害那第二個部分就是按照現在的司法實例來看現役軍人遭受到中共吸收以及對價關係目前都是以這個涉貪污自罪條例來判處 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10949.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10975.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那考量現在單純向敵人表示效忠如果沒有加以刑責的嚴禁的話會使部隊的距離跟軍事安全遭受嚴重的損害好 這個部分我非常認同但是我有發現有另外一個擔憂當然可能不是跟你們業務有關可是我認為在修法的時候後續我們也希望可以提出相關的版本就是對於所謂的退役或者是退休的軍人現役的部分你已經講得很清楚我們來討論一下退休跟退役的軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10976.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11000.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
目前他們在退休跟退役之後呢他們繼續會支領國家所給的退休金那我們可不可以要求這些退除役官兵可以對國家表示忠誠否則他到中國去參加政黨活動啦參加一些類政黨活動看起來是民間團體辦的但是他還是表現出對於敵國的忠誠我們現在看到相關的版本裡面例如說在陸海空軍刑法第一條我們一樣只歸意到現役軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11001.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11029.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
陸海空軍刑法第二條相關的辦法裡面也沒有提到這一次24條修法的內容一樣只適用現役軍人到了兩岸人民關係條例裡面第九條裡面寫到只限於對於參加對岸的實體活動而且適用於退將長官首長其實適用的人數也很少如同你剛剛說的如果有很多是基層的士官兵其實也不適用相關的處罰辦法甚至在國安法裡面我們看到這次行政院有提案修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11030.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11058.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
但是一樣沒有涵蓋我剛剛所說的退降只有免防任何人鼓吹戰爭消滅我國主權言論我要說我關心的是什麼我們來看下一張像這些人這一位大將軍大家應該都非常熟悉吳斯懷吳斯懷他到中共去聽習近平講話坐在底下展現得非常忠誠非常乖巧彷彿那就是他的祖國他心目中一心一意嚮往的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11059.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11085.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
甚至在非常多民間的政治結論政論節目討論當中我們看到常常有很多退出役官兵他們發出對於台灣強烈高度質疑的聲音甚至詆毀國軍的戰鬥力相關的言論我都覺得在破壞國人對於國軍的信心也在破壞台灣國內的團結甚至是成為中共重要的在台協力者我必須這麼明白的說像最近有網路上有一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11087.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11103.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
有人整理這所謂的名嘴翻車現場關於委內瑞拉的案子我們來看一下這裡面就有三位退除役館兵第一位是呂理詩前海軍艦長第二位是利正傑退役軍人第三位是帥化銘他也是退將喔他們都曾經說過類似的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11105.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11121.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我當然知道在這一次修法裡頭我們沒有辦法處理到這個但是既然剛剛已經有國民黨委員要求提出公聽會我也希望後續我們在公聽會上一併來討論關於退出役官兵的問題好嗎那當然這不是您的業務範圍但我還是要表達我對這個事情的關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11122.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11137.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好最後一個我要講的是關於民意代表附中報備這件事情我要說非常的遺憾我們在程序委員會已經被擋超過800次我認為接下來會繼續被擋我不知道就國防部你們的立場你們如何看待所謂民意代表附中必須報備這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11141.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11156.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好沒關係那就我來說民意代表附中報備這件事情實在是真的可以公開透明如果你認為你去的地方你見的人你談話的內容你想要為台灣促進的事情是可受公平的可受監督的可受檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11157.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11184.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
可供討論的那就請民意代表積極支持而且不是只有中央的民意代表不要忘了還有非常多地方的民意代表這是我個人的立場我當然也很希望在後續很多修法上我們可以看到在野黨黨團不要一邊說你們拒絕被抹紅但是所有跟所有我們想要的舔共的法案我們要希望可以修法你們卻又一邊阻止真的是非常的雙標非常的荒謬好 以上謝謝主席謝謝副部長謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11187.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11196.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
好 謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在再來 來 寶哥賴世寶委員謝謝主席來跟你碰頭有請國安部的副部長來 請副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11217.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11231.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
大委員好你好我看今天修法提案的對於這個軍人啊這個陸海空在什麼情況之下加重刑罰其實老實講現在民進黨執政十年了這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11235.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11261.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
提這個東西就提吧我們好好的討論 公聽會好好的討論但是我要提的是我們要看共諜共諜都在哪裡共諜都在綠營裡面賴清德當副總統的時候他裡面就有共諜然後吳釗燮當國安會秘書長的時候他當外交部長的共諜後來高升為這個國安會的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11263.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11276.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
然後這個民進黨的這個立委裡面也助理共諜我不知道你這個這個其實共諜更加的規範我們國防部有沒有想到規範要共諜 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11278.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11300.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
共鐵郭委員幫我們現在修的這整個陸海空軍刑法第24條是針對軍人的部分是啊 我現在提醒你啦其實對國家危害更大的是共鐵啦他把國家的機密一捆一捆的帶走然後帶去哪裡你可以看到這個外交部長吳釗燮那時候當當部長的時候短短的時間調了八個邦交國然後跟他的助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11307.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11317.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這麼close的助理他是共諜沒有關係嗎他的行政全部被掌握對不對他到現在還高居這個國安委的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11318.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11327.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
不要忘了 大家都了解你現在規範這個 我就說怎麼共鐵都沒有看到 共鐵剛剛就規範第二個問題 我想我們現在這個F16失事我們現在是很難過的10年裡面摔了 就是飛機失事11次我看前面我也問你這個問題了 我就請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11343.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11353.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
關於這一次的飛行員他這件的整個事件你們國防部是不是已經有初步的調查結果 有沒有出來目前還沒有外界都不斷的跟你分析 就兩個嘛一個電腦的問題 一個是什麼飛行的事情 夜間飛行的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11364.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11384.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
第一個部分是先跟委員報告就是說我們現在是全力在加強整個搜救這個整個失事的飛行員為主來做檢討那第二個部分因為整個失事的原因包含到環境人為跟機械那這個部分會必須要等到後續的一個檢討才能確定跟委員做 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11385.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11405.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們的有關於飛機的維修這一部分還被審計部打槍咧審計部八月份是出了一個審計報告說三十幾項你們只能夠維修兩項而且我們又大言不慚的又開幕好大的陣仗2020年的時候成立一個F16維修中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11406.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11428.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
瓦站獨瓦站要怎麼講我都沒有意見反正這個資源在你們手上你可以想好好做F16我們已經有將近140架139架左右再加上要來的66架全世界最大的F16的地方就是台灣成立維修中心很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11429.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11457.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
但是呢 工人不加你現在看 還是10年 F16 失事11次不可為不多吧對不對 失事每次都有它的原因你剛剛講 氣候原因什麼之類但是跟 這一次跟它的維修很有關係喔你要不要講一下這個整個失事調查報告沒有出來我們沒辦法給委員確定到底失事的原因為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11458.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11476.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
有人就談到 電腦的問題 夜間航行的問題反彈跳的系統等等的這些其實都是 那這樣講 我們就回過來講你要求你今天這個提案我們就看嘛 看社會的反應怎麼樣我們就尊重 看大家怎麼討論但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11480.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11507.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
軍人要給他基本的 特別是飛官好不容易栽培一個飛官請問培養一個飛官培養一個飛官要多少錢委員好 是空軍司令部的周安福參謀長當初因為現在跟各機型不一樣訓練出來的那個經費都不太一致那大概要接近1000多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11509.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11536.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我所了解的大概一兩千萬培養一個飛官一兩千萬他裡面要求很多的國家資源障礙都在身上這個飛官都非常的他對於台灣的這個台海的安全有很大的影響力有很大的一個作用這樣子現在又失蹤了我們看了很難過但是所以回過來我還真的要講的是軍人待遇請問我們的軍人待遇跟其他國家比怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11539.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11567.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
要不然這個問完就可以了軍人待遇包委員我們跟美軍來相比的話確實是跟不上美軍一個月平均一個月是兩千塊美金耶我們一個月多少錢啊對不對所以來我們多少錢你講一下吧這跟生活所需就是一般的好不好你扣一扣也沒差沒差多嘛我們多少嘛我們多少嘛他一個月兩千美金我們多少一個月多少嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11568.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11573.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
呃 跟各 各階級不太一樣下市 下市多少錢 下市大概五萬吧 應該有五萬左右差不多五萬嘛五萬嘛 對吧 一個月兩千 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11584.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11606.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
是不是 這個 我說平均 都大小所以給軍人加薪 我們也三讀通過了總統也公告了 為什麼還不依法編列這個就是總預算一直卡在這裡的我都願意說 大概各退一步我會跟主計長講 可不可以我們公開承諾你公開承諾 只要省總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11608.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11636.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
你就把軍人待遇提升的這個補進來他說沒有錢我說不會沒有錢啦我們大概預算總預算大概三兆過去十幾年平均3.5度一趴一點多趴一算一趴就有300億絕對夠啊 怎麼不夠錢絕對夠就在於賴清德總統要不要拿掉他那個好鬥的心他只要拿掉了所以今天總預算不省就在於他一年之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11637.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11663.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
他只要承諾也不用退回總預算重併 不用只要公開承諾一審總預算我一定把這個追加預算補上來一句話我們就審了這應該是很簡單的事情了有機會就回去歡迎你們 謝謝好 謝謝賴世寶委員好 林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員好 不在下一位 莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11667.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11694.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好 謝謝主席有請我們國防部副部長好 副部長有請 謝謝今天我看這個大家坐前面的法律師師長這個腦袋怪很清楚的還有我們司法院司法院今天有來司法院代表請上台一下這個副部長剛剛你也聽到了這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11697.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11719.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
很弔詭的一個邏輯總預算的一個附違這個還要附帶了這麼多的一個條件這個隨便聽聽就好了所以還是聚焦在今天整個我們今天整個條文的一個修正我先來請教司法院司法院我看我很用心的去拜讀你們對今天這個條文的一個見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11721.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11742.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
就說你們提到的就好像是今天所提出來這樣的一個糾訂的一個草案裡面第一個就是過程條件裡面你們認為可能就不夠明確而且還認為說你說效忠的範圍這第一個那第二個你們也提到說這個是不是會有違反比例原則的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11744.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11766.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
但也確實有時候這個看起來就像一個危險犯一樣有時候變成比較抽象那到底要達到什麼樣的一個地步你們也提供了一些意見才把它至少認為說比較不會去跟言論的一個自由有所衝擊不會去違反到整個比例原則你們的憂慮是不是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11769.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11794.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
謝謝委員對 確實我們是擔心說這樣一個法律規定因為行為的太陽太多元了那我們希望說如果能夠加一個示性犯的要件那他是可以做一個比較精準的一個打擊然後也不會說就是處罰到或是說溢出到我們本來沒有意想到的這樣一個行為好 謝謝那我請我們那個法律師師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11795.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11819.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
社長我看你今天在談在回應的時候我看也都非常清楚但是我看整個陸海空軍刑法第24條修法的一個核心裡面你說新增現役軍人用言語舉動文字等對敵人來效忠因為畢竟這個是7年以上有期徒刑算是7年以下對7年最高最高7年就要7年有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11819.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11838.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那當然你去提高不盡其應盡的職責而去降敵罪這個處到最高到十年有期徒刑那同時也去增訂了預備跟陰謀犯的一個處罰的一個規定我跟司法院長的一個講法其實也有他的一個擔憂在剛剛我也問我倒認為說方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11845.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11872.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
你們修法的一個方向這個我贊同那這個效果的部分司法院那一個見解倒是你們也可以好好地再來考慮一下因為修法以後呢你至少要有一個嚇阻力會不會嚇阻我相信會有可是產生上實質的一個效果裡面呢那也確實是我會有一點點歡樂啦你像一般我們在修法的時候我們常常會講說你要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11874.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11895.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
比如說詐欺罪一定要把它做一個提升就是說這個社會充滿著詐欺或者是說哪一個暴力犯罪我們要把它做一個提升這個太可惡了社會形成這樣的一個共識那你說這個去類似於說用發個文字言語去對敵人表達效忠我相信社會上也認為是應該去規範可是這個規範裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11900.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11922.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
現在有一些在刑務上或者刑務以外的那這些有時候一般會你在刑法的規定裡面大家有時候常常會認為說刑法它畢竟是一個最後的一個手段那你前面還有一個色違法在可能就沒有到達到那麼重的一個地步司法院這個擔憂我倒是贊同不曉得市長你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11923.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11937.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
跟委員報告一下司法院的建議我們國安部也有看到就如同委員講的他建議不是沒有他的道理只是我們雙方考量的論點不大一致而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11937.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11954.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
因為我們其實說實在話向德恩案產生之後我們身為現役軍人對我們來講的衝擊很大因為對國家的忠誠就是我們當軍人最重要的一個義務如果對國家不忠誠就不應該要當軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11955.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11984.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這個我贊同我相信社會也會贊同所以如果說就是你是我們是國家捍衛國家的軍人在第一線操作武器保家衛國如果從你的嘴巴表示出來要效忠敵人我想全國人民也不會接受這樣的一個說辭因為這種說辭馬上就會被敵人拿來渲染作為一個興戰或是利用擴散的一個作為這樣子真的很容易打擊到我們國軍還有全體人民的一個士氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11985.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11999.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
是 但我要問的就是說修法常常就是很急迫性要處理什麼你現在我看你2023年軍人起訴案件大部分 你看72%裡面都是其他軍事犯罪酒駕 倒賣 70隻 九十九個人其他違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12005.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12024.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
執意職責大部分都是逃兵嘛那反而說你違反國家職責罪這個部分反而我看你那個數據啊反而沒有那麼多啦那你從2024年的數據去做分析趨勢也都一樣啊也是一樣是酒駕、倒賣差不多逃兵那部分違反效忠國家職責這當然很嚴重但是還是極少數還是極少數所以呢我 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12035.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12064.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
比較擔心的就是說這些要跟社會對話也要講清楚軍人當然就一定要去效忠國家你說去發一個現役軍人去發一個效忠別的國家用文字用圖像那還得了那還得了可是是不是要達到用這樣的一個刑法這麼高的一個威嚇或者說立法方向是如此那要見部分是不是讓他更明確我不知道你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12065.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12075.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
各位委員報就是針對司法院的建議其實我們可以在逐條的時候來好好的來一個研討所以我意思是說那紅線在外面不然大家都會說我在開玩笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12077.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12099.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
你那個主觀過程要見到最後你很難去含澀進去有那個行為看起來都很可惡媒體如果去給你炒作的話都是新聞的熱點跟焦點可是你到了檢察官尤其是到法官在法官要下那個判決的時候他一定每一個主觀過程要見一一跟你含澀 一一跟你分析你光有一個客觀要見不好啊是不是這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12103.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12117.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我師長你懂我意思嗎我了解是啊 所以法律其實如果沒有定得很明確的話你讓個別不一樣的法官那做出不一樣的一個裁決這個也會天下大亂啊你像譬如說藝人最多嘛藝人 藝本地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12120.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12140.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
遊走在兩岸他如果來當兵的時候他也去給你發一個好像譬如說去連現役軍人我相信你去發一個祝賀中國的國慶在我們的想像裡面社會一定認為你亂來你現役軍人上面你祝賀中國國慶大家都覺得很不可思議啊但重點如果他的做了要不要提升到 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12141.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12154.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
七年 最高到七年我相信也沒有一個法官會判到七年可是如果比較極端的像這樣的一個情況之下這樣判七年好像也你不覺得好像也比較奇怪一點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12156.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12174.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
甚至有些藝人有時候也跟他說那不是我那是我經紀人給我發給的大家都亂講所以舉這樣的一個例子裡面我倒是希望說我們這個整個提出來的一個草案裡面方向我相信都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12175.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12192.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
為了整個國家的一個安全而且對於現役軍人這些不當的一個行為那本來就是嚴格要去做一個禁止但是我是期待這整個過程要見應該讓他更具體不要到最後到你說檢察官起訴我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12194.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12221.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個新證也不用超過50%也就是50%以下的0到50這個全部不要形成確信都可以起訴可是到了法官那個地方又不一樣了那法官在判的時候那一一一給你過程要進去做一個檢視的話到最後你要起訴料那到最後又判決無罪你最後當然是以法院的判決算可是社會又引起很多的一個波瀾引起很多的一個波瀾有沒有好處 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12222.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12246.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你說真正唯一的一個好處是只有殺雞儆猴啦可是對整個司法的一個威信大家會覺得說這樣起訴 這樣起訴人家本來在判假這樣也不好好不好所以我倒覺得那個要件讓他更明確的話那可能這才是在立法院大家一起來支持的話我相信在野黨對這關條文他也不敢後悔來啦好不好是好 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12250.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12250.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好 謝謝莊銳雄委員副部長請回 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12265.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12287.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那所有登記發言的委員經與發言完畢我們詢答就結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員或本聯席會那委員王定宇林益君所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12292.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12303.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那討論事項所列的議案報告及詢答完畢那我們另定期來繼續審查本次的會議我們進行到此現在散會 謝謝大家 |