| IVOD_ID |
17182 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17182 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-07T08:35:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-07T12:46:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:10:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea21ca6625277982f42a87814fc5398840081761262ea6c52fd39779b1783670bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:14 - 12:46:00 |
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千安主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人已足法定人數現在開會進行討論署航車限度審查行政院函清審議國家安全法部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人領去國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案 |
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1550.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員沈博洋等17人你具國家安全法第13條及第13條之一條文修正草案委員陳冠廷等23人你具國家安全法第4條及第8條條文修正草案委員邱志偉等16人你具國家安全法第3條條文修正草案委員沈博洋等20人委員王定宇等16人分別你具國家安全法第2條及第7條條文修正草案委員沈博洋等20人你具國家安全法第3條第8條及第18條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1550.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1578.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
委員陳冠廷等19人擬據國家安全法增訂第19條之一條文草案委員黃潔等16人擬據國家安全法第二條第三條及第7條條文修正草案審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬據國家安全法第13條條文修正草案委員王美惠等17人委員賴銳龍等17人分別擬據國家安全法部分條文修正草案台灣民眾黨黨團擬據國家安全法第7條第8條及第8條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1579.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1606.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員邱志偉等19人擬拒國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案委員莊瑞雄等16人擬拒國家安全法增訂第13條之一條文草案委員王定宇等16人委員吳佩儀等17人分別擬拒國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案委員郭玉琴等18人擬拒國家安全法部分條文修正草案委員李昆城等16人擬拒國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1607.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1616.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
委員徐富鬼等20人擬拒國家安全法部分條文修正草案委員鄭天才等19人擬拒國家安全法第6條條文修正草案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1625.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1639.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
本例的議程說列入的討論方案除了23案未簽署不附議同意書以外不予審查其他的我們都合併詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1654.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1665.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請要進行發言的委員到主席台上的每人三分鐘好不好好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1760.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1765.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們請第一位沈博洋委員程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1786.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1798.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好謝謝主席第一次的程序發言那因為呢這個上次呢我已經提案說明過了所以我這邊稍微重整一下因為今天這個法案的這個條文非常的多那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1798.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1826.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我在這個去年到今年為止幾乎都是有提過的案子但是條號可能都不一樣所以我想說藉由這一個程序發言我們先做一個簡單的重整第一個是國安法的第二條第二條其實最主要是針對發起這種組織等等相關的這一個原本的犯罪但是原本的這一個類型其實是不夠明確的所以第一個修法第二條就是希望能夠再把它再加的明確化並把它類型化這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1827.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1854.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那第二個呢就是第三條的修正那第三條的修正呢其實是跟我們第三條的修正應該是沒有院版但是有很多委員的版本那第三條最主要是針對比如說這個跟國家關鍵技術有關的機密這跟經濟安全有關但因為原來的條文也是呢就是很難適用所以呢比如說今天我們這一個台積電的機密啊等等之類的它應該被保護但是它有時候很難就是直接落入到第三條的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1856.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1876.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以針對這一個呢第三條來做相對應的修正這是第二個再來呢是第四條第四條比較特別第四條是針對武力統一這個部分那這一個呢我們等一下在質詢的時候應該也會特別討論就是說呢如果只是針對武力統一的話但可能針對一些一樣會比如說他今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1877.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1904.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
商貨叫公務員做為或不做為或者說他今天商貨直接投降的言論或者商貨今天去做和平協議他不一定會落入到第四條的範圍所以第四條要怎麼樣呢可以去涵蓋到現在灰色地帶作戰都能夠做到的我覺得這應該也是可以討論的那第四條之一這個是跟網際網路有關的相關的這一個下架的這一個法則它是配合前面的第二條第三條跟第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1905.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1931.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那再來接下來進入的就是中間人的條款也是我覺得這一次修法非常重大的一個革新就是因為就跟反滲透法一樣反滲透法大部分都是透過中間人來達成那我們剛剛看到的所有的這些事情不管是洩漏秘密又或者說今天是發展組織等等的或者說為特定的商貨這些都有可能會有中間人的參與但中間人要處罰必須要獨立出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1933.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1950.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那有兩種做法一種做法就是在第二第三條直接明定中間人另外一個是這次院版的做法應該是在第八條之一吧應該是八條之一直接把中間人的規範訂立進去那最後呢還有一個呢比較重要的比較肢解的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1950.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1976.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
如果是針對境外敵對勢力這個部分有加重的這個法則我想這應該沒什麼問題因為我們目前台灣的威脅應該是非常的明確然後以及在最後關於退休降臨如果說在這個判決還沒有確定之前他的這個退休給予該怎麼做這個我們在國防外交委員會其實有討論過多次那看起來也跟國防部有達成共識所以這個部分我想應該比較不會有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1977.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1980.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那以上用這樣的方式我先重整一下今天整體要討論的這一個方向 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1998.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2019.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
謝謝主席今天我們在這邊要審查行政院版提出的這個國家安全法部分條文修正草案本席必須要嚴肅的指出這份草案姿勢體大牽扯的不僅僅是國家安全的維護更涉及了我們憲法保障人民的基本權利言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2020.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2037.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
訴訟權益以及罪行法定原則的根基我們看到行政院送來的這份草案洋洋灑灑理由寫得冠冕堂皇而我們看到的說是為了因應境外敵對勢力的滲透手法日趨多元但戲就其條文內容我們看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2038.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2057.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
行政權的無限擴張是法治國原則的崩壞甚至是綠色恐怖的具體化本席要在這邊強烈的主張今天的審查程序不應該倉促進行這部法案充滿了巨大的憲法爭議我們絕對不能在沒有社會共識沒有專家學者充分參與的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2058.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2075.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就草率的逐條審查本席要求針對這份草案必須要先召開多場高規格的公聽會邀請憲法學者刑法學者人權團體以及資通產業界的代表來共同檢視這份法案的釋法性跟妥當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2076.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2091.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在凝聚共識之前本席是反對進入實質的審查首先本席要針對草案第7條的修正提出最嚴厲的質疑行政院在修法中竟然他在說明欄裡白紙黑字的承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2092.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2108.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現行的法規中必須要有意圖危害國家安全或社會安全的主觀要件但是因為司法實務上常因舉證不義而無法有效的定罪所以把意圖拿掉那改成所謂的刑事釋性法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2113.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2138.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這樣的一個邏輯我們無法接受因為檢察官舉證困難所以政府不想辦法提升我們偵查的品質反而回過頭來要修訂降低定罪的門檻刑法的核心內精神是無犯意即無罪那既然你們把意圖拿掉只要客觀的行為被認定足以生危害於國家安全就可以處以七年以上的重罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2139.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2166.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
請問什麼叫做足以生危害這個標準誰說了算是檢察官說了算還是執政黨說了算這種模糊的法律概念配合高刑度根本就是為了羅織入罪而開大門未來任何與對岸的商業交流學術往來是不是只要讓執政黨看不順眼就可以被扣上足以危害國家安全的帽子然後根本不需要證明什麼主觀意識就可以直接定人入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2167.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2177.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這不是白色恐怖的腹屁 什麼才是這不是戒嚴 什麼才是其次草案第二條也訂定了參與組織的處罰並將其定義擴大到不問參與組織活動與否說明樑甚至引用了最高法院的判決說只要同意參與 具備共同目的就算沒參加活動也算這完全是思想審查的延伸 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2191.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2216.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所謂的形式上無害之組織如果被政府認定有問題民眾在不知情的情況之下是否就會誤觸法網這種相處罰前置化範圍無限擴大的做法極度缺乏法律的明確性讓人民動輒得救生活在恐懼之中所以呢本席在這邊呢再次重申我們反對倉促的審查要求召開公聽會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2218.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2220.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝我們感謝徐政委員我們請張志倫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2231.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2255.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席 各位同仁 針對今天排審行政院審議的國家安全法部分條文修正草案本席覺得這會不會是對人民的言論審查以及網路戒嚴所以本席在這裡提出最嚴正的程序正義國安法修法之事題大 充滿國家安全跟人民基本權利相互的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2255.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2280.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因此在檢視這次行政院的版本以後充滿不確定的法律概念以及對行政權擴張的危機所以本席強烈主張在社會共識尚未凝聚前絕不應該這個倉促的進行逐條審查應該必須先召開公聽會第一這次行政院的版本第四條新增處罰鼓吹戰爭的言論其定義極為模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2283.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2299.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
大家都知道民進黨在執政這幾年兩岸關係緊張請問理性的分析地緣政治的風險算是鼓吹嗎還是主張強化國防算鼓吹還是反戰爭的言論想要想要和平就會被認為是投降主義而受罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2300.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2327.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
更荒謬的是現在處罰的機關評論的機關沒有確定到底什麼機關這樣子的處罰權利是交給哪一個行政機關是不是有求人兼裁判所以這是缺乏法律明確性更是行政權對於言論自由的粗暴干預第二個我想要講這是一條針對什麼是錯假錯誤的訊息的限制沒有明確的規定這個裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2331.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2349.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
請問誰來定義什麼是錯誤錯假的訊息如果政府針對執政黨的訊息批評執政黨的訊息就認為是虛假的訊息或錯誤訊息要求強制下架及封網這不就是網路戒嚴嗎缺乏法院事前的審查機制只憑行政的命令就要遮蔽的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2351.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2377.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
對於民主法制是嚴重的倒退我們沒有辦法接受這樣子的空白授權所以模糊的紅線將會引發強烈的寒蟬效益言論自由是我們台灣民主社會的基石過去許多的民主前輩包含鄭南榮先生都是用生命來捍衛言論自由這是我們台灣引以為傲的自由的價值如果這是國安的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2377.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2392.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
要來通過這樣子要件不明的法律讓民眾無法預見自己未來的言論是否觸法讓民眾有寒蟬消息讓法律變成人民恐怖的工具這不是維護國安這是製造綠色恐怖為了避免這次的修法過度擴張 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2396.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2417.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
造成不可挽回的一些後果本席具體要求今日的提案針對國家安全法的修法應該召開四場的公聽會由民進黨國民黨團召集委員先召開公聽會各兩場並廣邀專家學者與社會大眾對話釐清爭議凝聚共識後再來進行實質審查以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2423.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2426.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
謝謝 感謝張志倫委員 羅志強委員賴清德對不起鄭楠榮民進黨對不起鄭楠榮鄭楠榮他 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2453.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2475.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
主張要百分之百的言論自由民進黨前輩過去也都在努力的爭取不要因為言論入罪不要因為思想入罪結果呢這群不爭氣的徒子徒孫在這邊來掘鄭南榮的墓來毀鄭南榮的主張沒有關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2482.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2509.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那金澤這麼想戒嚴這麼想控制人民的思想沒有關係啦照民進黨最愛講的嘛開公聽會嘛開公聽會嘛開個市場公聽會我覺得都保守了最好全國各縣市好好宣揚民進黨是怎麼程序鄭南榮精神每個縣市都開公聽會最好大肆宣揚告訴大家民進黨就是前置言論的政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2511.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2540.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
民進黨就箝制新聞自由的政黨民進黨就箝制思想的政黨我也直接告訴民進黨也真的不用那麼麻煩啦今天找藉口愛怎麼認定就怎麼認定你只要認為說你不喜歡聽的言論照這新版的國安法修法基本上就等著被政府抓啦等著被政府抓啦法規當然可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2544.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2567.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
滾動檢討但是請注意 行政院版的國安法第4條第4條之一的草案內容正是在刑法100條廢除之後 民進黨的功勛啊民進黨努力的功勛啊公然要把手伸到言論審查特別是政治言論審查相關範圍你要再次打造政治犯打造思想犯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2568.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2587.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所有的條文草案第四條第四至一條定義不清對象不明全部都是行政機關說了算全部都是行政機關說了算啊那我就問啦那也沒關係啦最好裡面也加入一條抓去關的啦主張台獨顛覆中華民國也抓去關抓去罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2596.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2618.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
要不要修進去啊民進黨過去把所謂政治言論基本上他認為政府不該伸手干預你現在要伸手干預沒關係啊主張台獨顛覆國家顛覆中華民國的政體請問你要不要也放進國安法裡面去修我要特別強調一件事情今天真的是拜託我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2626.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2650.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
民進黨修法的時候想想你們的前輩鄭楠榮啦那另外如果執意要修也沒關係啊可以啊沒關係啊先辦公聽會嘛今天有詢答很好讓官員來說明對不對然後讓立委來質詢很好啊但是應該擴大社會參與嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2651.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2676.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那各多的專家學者進來 民進黨最喜歡開公聽會嘛最喜歡講公聽會嘛那就開公聽會啊所以我們現在國民黨我們這邊已經有提案希望齁我們能夠先召開四場公聽會然後呢接下來再進行所謂的條文的審查我覺得這樣子會是更周延的一個做法以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2679.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2683.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝 感謝羅志強委員 高津素美委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2689.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2712.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
延續羅志強委員的說法我在這裡誠心的建議我們今天的召委能夠接受在野黨的建議我們先開公聽會之後再來審查這個重要的條文那麼也希望在內政委員會的委員們也能夠清楚的知道自由言論還有集會結社的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2713.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2730.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
它是民主社會的基石也是人民對抗權力擴張的最後防線歷史也一再地證明當一個政權開始走向威權第一個要封殺的就是言論自由還有集會結社的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2732.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2749.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這兩個一旦被惡意的箝制了之後呢整個社會就會產生連鎖的崩壞而今天現在我們看到執政黨正在透過所謂的修法要直接威脅人民的言論自由還有集會的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2750.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2779.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
執政黨利用人民對法律還有程序的信任用看似合法的立法程序要去達到實質上不正當的目的要來抹煞民主憲政的基礎當法律不再是保障自由的盾牌而變成打壓異己的棍棒的時候這個社會 這個國家也就已經邁入了獨裁的道路 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2780.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2783.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
如果民進黨你們認為現在我們的國家已經進入了非常的狀況就算是正式的戒嚴至少還必須要公開的宣告還要有明確的程序並且接受國會的監督還要有時效還有邊界 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2801.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2827.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
現在你們選擇的路是把非常權力偷偷的塞進一般的法律來修正跟未來國安法的解釋之中弱化社會的警覺 規避憲法對緊急權力的監督用漸進式的方式 甚至可能是永久化的方式來收緊人民的自由讓人民閉嘴 不能夠有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2830.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2833.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這種用法律形式實際上是在掏空法律保障的權利的行為我要再講一次這正是當年德國納粹走向極權的路徑歷史在這裡會給我們非常嚴峻的警訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2850.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2852.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以我要強烈的要求 任何涉及國安 涉及限制人民核心權利的修法必須要經過全民的檢驗 公開的 透明的 召開公平公正的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2867.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2869.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
要完整的公佈條文還有影響評估讓全體的台灣的人民百姓清楚知道後果而不是利用民粹 利用側翼的美化悄悄的把這個國家慢慢的推向威權的邊緣 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2887.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2890.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
46年前鄭南榮先生講的一句話 請民進黨朋友不要忘記百分之百的言論自由 百分之百的集會結社 請你們不要墮落到連鄭南榮先生的核心價值給毀壞了 謝謝謝謝 感謝高津素美 林佩祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2928.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2937.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主席 各位同仁今天我想用一個理性負責任的態度來討論這一次國安法的修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2938.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2958.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們必須強調國家安全是重要的但是如果國家安全的定義已經模糊到可以用來吞噬人民的言論自由那這部法律本身就已經構成另外一種的國安風險這讓我想起到美國政治史上非常有名的麥卡錫主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2960.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2982.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
麥卡錫主義呢 並非是單一參議員的個人行為而是一整套由反共恐慌 政治操作 媒體煽動跟制度失靈所構成的時代氛圍我們沒有想到說在美國居然連Charlie Chaplin查柏林都因為被麥卡錫主義而被迫離開自由的美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2983.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3006.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那我們就知道連在自由的典範裡面都有可能發生這樣的事情的時候我們所有民主國家應該引以為戒尤其在修法的時候而麥卡錫主義最大的冤屈不在於抓錯了幾個人而是在於他用國家安全之名系統性的犧牲了言論自由思想自由正當法律程序跟無罪推定 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3007.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3023.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
因此以下我有五個疑問第一點條文界限模糊人民如何知道什麼不能說首先我們先來看今年修正的第二條條文規定任何人不得為外國大陸香港澳門或境外敵對勢力發起贊助參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3026.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3051.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
足以危害國家安定或社會安定的組織或行為那我就想就教行政院一個普通人民如果只是評論兩岸政策質疑政府作為轉編一篇你不喜歡的文章什麼時候會被認定為足以危害國家安全之餘界限在哪裡標準是什麼是看動機內容還是看你喜不喜歡 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3052.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3060.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
如果連法律本身都說不清楚要人民如何自處難道每天發文之前先猜猜看我們行政機關的心聲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3061.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3088.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
第二行政機關一手認定一手裁罰那請問言論自由到底在哪裡再來是看這次修訂的第四條條文規定任何人在網路或公共空間以文字影像語言等方法鼓吹倡議或支持境外敵對勢力對我國採取非和平手段就可能被處以十萬到一百萬元的罰款並且是由行政機關裁定那我必須嚴肅的請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3090.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3117.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
什麼是鼓吹 什麼是倡議是新聞報導 學術討論 還是反諷還是單純的轉述國際評論條文完全沒有清楚界限沒有法院的事前檢查沒有明確排除新聞 學術 評論等言論處罰的是言論本身 不是具體行為也不要求直接一級的危害結果這不是防止戰爭啊這是在用行政材料來管制台灣人民的思想 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3118.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3147.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
第三寒蟬效應才是對我們民主社會最大的傷害言論自由最可怕的不是被抓而是不敢說當法律標準不清楚人民就會開始自我審查我要提醒行政院寒蟬效應如果一旦形成是不可逆的如果一部法律必須靠執政者的節制才能不傷害人權那麼代表這部法律本身就寫錯了其實後面還有兩點那等一下我會再要求發言謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3148.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3163.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
謝謝我們感謝林培祥委員主席宣告程序發言到現在一致我們再來請劉喜庭委員截止登記截止登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3180.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3204.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 謝謝主席今天很遺憾又再次的來針對國安法進行審查但顯然好像也沒什麼人把在野黨的訴求當一回事為什麼這麼說呢因為在當初第三會期的時候這個法案並不是沒有進到內政委員會來做審查大家也盡了自己的義務在詢答的時候提出了各自的一個主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3205.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3233.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
但至少那個時候大家還有一個比較好的一個方向這個時候的願板還沒有出來我印象非常深刻本席在當初針對國安法提出質詢的時候還特別就教了法務部的這個黃士傑次長還有陸委會的相關的一些官員大家在討論因為我們那時候看到很多時候是民進黨委員的提案但那時候行政院的意見大多數是見請在佐為什麼要見請在佐呢就是因為比如說法律明確性等等相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3234.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3238.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
配套跟明確性並沒有被清楚的處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3239.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3264.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以就是說大家那天就有比較清楚的方向也就是說至少在行政院的院版要能夠解決這些問題的時候大家再進到審查的一個程序那當初我也在質詢的時候非常強烈的主張這事情知識體大不能只有立法委員的聲音社會各界包含學界會被影響的各式各樣的人是不是要給他一個機會表達一些他的立場跟顧慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3265.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3291.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
針對充分的社會溝通完成之後再來進行法案的修正當初不管是法務部的回應陸委會的回應也都是正面看待公聽會的請求畢竟一個法案要經過修正廣納社會各界的建言本來就是有必要的他們當初也都說會尊重立法院的決定那很遺憾的是這半年過去了這大家都沒有再提開公聽會的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3292.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3308.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
其實民進黨的召委也有很多的機會可以來做排案在這中間的任何時間針對一些內容找社會顯達來開公聽會我想在野黨沒有什麼拒絕的理由但今天一提出來然後講說我們可能馬上要進到實質審查的程序那我就覺得是有一點點倉促 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3309.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3321.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以在這邊我們要很客氣的拜託召委啊今天如果可以比較有一個明確的結論也就是在程序發言結束之後如果召委願意做一下宣告做一下調整今天我們一樣進行詢答嘛時間拉長一點都沒有關係嘛把話講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3325.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3346.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
但在群談結束之後我們則其由執政黨、在野黨分別召開公聽會我們讓這個東西經過更清楚的處理之後我想在審查的時候它就會比較順利嘛我也覺得這個是一個比較健康的做法為什麼這是比較健康的做法因為國安法修法知識體大國安國安啊多少罪惡假這個為名來行之呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3346.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3369.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
最近這段時間大家都清楚啊 朝野氛圍不睦彼此之間毫無互信在野黨依法通過的法案 行政端拒絕執行總統指責我們叫做在野獨裁可是大家今天看一下院版提出來的國安法的草案除了跟當初民進黨委員大同小異之外缺乏明確性 更是各式各樣的行政擴權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3371.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3385.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
比如說四字一條這就是大家最焦慮的啊是不是數位中介法捲土重來這個匯土轉生裡面寫內政部可以匯同法務部、速發部、陸委會還有相關的機關來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3388.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3399.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個處理可以進行屏蔽把這個網站可以做停職解析當初數位中介法去談這個東西不就擔心這樣子行政的擴權會造成實質上的內容審查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3402.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3423.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
就是擔心這樣的事情會影響大家的言論自由我提醒一下大家當初數位終界法之所以被擋下來就是因為開了公聽會很多很多被影響的人勇敢的站出來為可能被打壓的言論自由發聲所以最後數位終界法才沒有變成真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3424.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3448.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
今天你只是換一個名字重新出來然後想要用國安為名來搞情緒勒索如果這個時候在野黨沒有表達一下立場沒有要求一下召開公聽會反而是我們對不起選民啦所以我覺得我們今天很客氣的講道理再次這個跟召委溫情喊話一下拜託啦今天如果大家程序發言完有一個方向先到巡達開公聽會再來審查後面才會順利好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3452.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3458.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 謝謝我們感謝紐西庭委員 紐西庭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3470.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3494.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
主席各位同仁大家好我們今天要討論的是國家安全法本席要先強調說清楚我們大家都支持保護國家安全這點沒有任何爭議但是我要提醒大家一句很重要的就是國家安全的法律如果寫得不清楚本身就會變成國安的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3495.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3521.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
本席首先要先來談產業面抓間諜的法律不能變成嚇跑企業的法律請大家看一下我們桌上經濟部自己寫的報告經濟部白紙黑字寫得很清楚如果把技術的交付傳遞一併入罪那跨國企業正常的全球分工都可能出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3523.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3543.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我再講得更清楚一點我們台灣今天一家科技公司它很可能在美國 日本 歐洲都有研發團隊工程師每天都在交付資料都在傳遞技術那我想請問什麼叫做正常分工什麼時候會突然變成國安犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3545.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3563.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
經濟部自己都說不清楚那企業敢不敢繼續投資敢不敢把研發中心放在台灣留在台灣所以我們是要抓間諜還是要讓企業因為怕踩到紅線乾脆把研發關鍵的研發搬走 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3564.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3588.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以如果因為一部寫不清楚的法律造成了外商撤資本土企業自我限縮這是不是另外一種形式的國安危機第二個本席要再談刑度的設計標準不清楚司法就會亂所以行政院的版本把刑責分成了敵對勢力跟一般外國 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3590.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3604.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這個問題來了現在的間諜不是拿著名片就寫著我是敵對勢力來偷技術他們都是用第三國的公司白手套中間人那本席要請問一句很關鍵的檢調要怎麼認定靠什麼標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3609.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3629.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
是看公司設在哪裡股東的結構還是看行政機關怎麼想經濟部的報告完全沒有給答案更嚴重的是現在連營業秘密要不要當成構成要件行政院的版本跟部分執政黨委員的版本彼此都還在打架 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3631.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3659.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
連行政部門跟委員提案委員自己都還沒想清楚今天為什麼要我們委員會為這樣的法律背書最嚴重的一點已經踩到了言論自由的紅線本席要特別講我們行政院版的第4條這一條不是在處罰間諜不是在處罰泄密而是直接寫不能用文字語言影像聲音去鼓吹支持所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3660.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3687.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們在這裡結論很清楚問題不是要不要修而是現在不能這樣再修今天這部法律定義不清楚紅線畫不出來行政部門自己的說法也都還沒整合而且已經踩到了產業司法言論自由的高風險地帶在這種狀況下倉促的審查是對立法院的責任的傷害所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3690.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3718.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
本席也具體的建議我們要先暫緩逐條審查拜託召委 折旗這個召開公聽會要邀請誰 請邀請科技產業的代表邀請經濟部 法務部法律學者以及實務界我們把底下三件事說清楚什麼是正常的商業傳輸什麼叫國安洩密言論自由的紅線到底畫在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3719.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3745.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以最後本席說國家安全不能靠模糊的立法來撐場面我們不能為了拚進度修出一部讓企業產業恐慌人民噤聲人民沒有言論自由的法律而且這部法律對國安沒有實質的幫助所以我們不是否決國安我們是要把國安法修好以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3748.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3753.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
謝謝我們感謝行政委員我們休訓五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4339.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4357.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
來 我們繼續開會我們家民主委員不講他不講先先你說完先你說完好 來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4367.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4380.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
林楚瑩委員 程旭發言剛剛聽了多位國民黨委員的發言本席感到非常的開心就是在這將近兩年的時間裡面終於聽到在野黨委員說要尊重憲法而且要 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4382.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4396.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
行政立法之間要互相尊重本人其實表情非常堅定但是內心非常喜悅非常開心的在這裡聽到在野黨願意尊重憲法但是呢在剛剛發言的過程中我們也聽到了他們針對法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4398.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4427.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有非常多的質疑那不就是應該要來討論嗎程序發言當中只能針對程序尤其是他們特別提到的所謂言論自由的部分從行政院再包括我們民進黨委員一共有23個版本可能是版本太多在野黨委員來不及看就以本人跟王定宇委員王逸川委員以及羅美玲委員所提的版本當中就特別修正了把意圖兩個字拿掉言下之意就是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4428.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4453.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
不要涉及到所謂限制到言論自由的部分但是顯然他們可能太忙了忙於黨國安的國防預算 忙於黨總預算所以來不及針對今天的法案來進行研究那麼在這裡本席就特別提出來了其實不論是我們民進黨委員所提的版本或者是國民黨所提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4454.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4460.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
國民黨沒有提出版本 行政院所提的版本其實我們都希望是站在國安的角度來做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4462.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4488.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那麼既然在野黨希望能夠討論希望能夠嚴謹那麼本席就希望在我程序發言之後能夠開始針對實質的法案內容來進行討論最後要強調的就是對民進黨來講守護國家安全重要言論自由更為重要所以這也是為什麼今天所有的國民黨的委員在這裡可以持續的大鳴大放 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4489.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4502.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是我要強調的就是進入實質討論是非常重要的而這個也是民進黨一直以來所追求的那麼至於說他們對於這些版本上面有任何的歧見跟意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4504.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4521.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
本席代表民進黨團要特別強調的就是我們從來就沒有限制發言只有國民黨會限制發言那麼如果要召開公聽會讓更多的意見納入當然我們也希望針對這麼多的版本能夠做一個整合 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝林祖英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4533.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4537.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
程序發言 已經都完畢了 委員的意見在座 大家都聽到了所以我今天安排大臣要讓各位委員 針對我們的條文修正內容可以請相關部份做一些說明請大家充分來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4562.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4564.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
為了要求祖元在三月底之前 我們會召開兩場公聽會我們這項國民黨 民進黨 會召開一場公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4584.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4607.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
現在我們繼續開會介紹在場的委員及類似的官員我們張志隆委員徐毅臻委員麥一貞委員牛希婷委員張宏祿委員林柱英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4610.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4614.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
蘇巧慧委員李柏毅委員內政部馬屋次長大陸委員會梁護主任委員法務部徐政務次長原住民委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4638.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4640.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
杜副主任委員接下來請我們提案的委員說明提案要旨我們請第一位請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥一貞委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4671.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4696.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
主席 各位委員 大家好台灣民眾黨黨團提出國家安全法第七條第八條及第八條之一修正草案出發點只有一個就是補破網 補漏洞 真正提升國家安全的嚇阻力 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4697.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4718.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
一、現行國安法行動設計無法反映威脅程度的差異實際上洩密對象如果是外國與洩密對象是大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力對其對國 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4723.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4751.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我國國家安全民主制度以社會穩定造成的風險顯然並不相同但現行法制卻長期採取同一套的刑度處罰等於在法律上忽視了敵對勢力對我國造所造成的結構性系統性威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4753.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4762.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
嚇阻效果自然不足因此本黨在第7條與第8條的修正中明確區分洩密或滲透的行為的對象屬性對於涉及大陸地區與境外敵對勢力者設計更高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4781.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4793.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
刑度與罰金上限 目的不是擴張刑法 而是讓法律能夠如實反映國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4795.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4806.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
風險的層級差異第二制度性失守比個案犯罪更危險在多起共謀案件中我們看到的一個嚴重的問題依法本應辦理的公務人員特殊查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4817.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4824.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
卻未被執行但即便機關首長或主管機關明確代呼職者現行法制卻完全沒有任何處罰的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4834.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4854.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這代表國安系統中最關鍵的是前防線一旦失靈法則視而不見這才是真正的制度勒動因此我們增訂第八條之一針對為依法辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4855.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4869.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
特殊查核者刻意明確的行政與刑事責任目的不是原則基層而是要求制度負責職權相輔最後我們要強調這不是政黨對立的問題而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4878.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4905.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
國家安全的底線的問題提出這一項修法不是為了標籤誰而是為了讓國安法制度真正的具備真實感比例原則與有效的嚇阻力敬請大家支持補強國安法制的必要修正謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4909.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4913.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
主席 各位委員先敬大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4929.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4942.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
首先感謝大院各位委員對內政部所屬業務的支持與指導那麼由於我國的國家安全遭受1949年以來空前的威脅尤其在去年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4943.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4970.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
解放軍進行侵略台灣的演習不僅在實體空間進行軍事以及武力的威脅也在網路的空間配合協力者以及網軍進行大規模的宣傳跟攻擊沃國所以這一類的現象幾乎是重演當年俄羅斯攻擊烏克蘭的前兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4971.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4997.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因此今天就行政院拟据国家安全法部分条文修正及委员提案共23案涉及内政部有关事项重点说明如下第一国安法第四条及第四条之一修正条文未落实公民与政治权利国际公约规定应以法律禁止鼓吹战争宣传之意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4998.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5012.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
及避免境外敵對勢力或在地協力者利用網路從事滲透與認知作戰有必要於兼顧言論自由之保障下對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5013.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5039.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
鼓吹戰爭言論及網路內容涉及公開散佈危害國家安全或社會財政經濟安定之錯假訊息等情形有予以適當管制之必要因此李委員昆城所提國安法第四條第四條之一修正草案內容與行政院版本所提草案一致本部競表贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5040.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5056.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
第二點有關於關鍵基礎設施安全之維護鑒於國家關鍵基礎設施安全維護攸關政府及社會功能之持續運作因此國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導綱領規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5059.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5079.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
安全防護工作與相關資訊機敏性與保密之要求對於接觸或持有公務上之秘密資訊應具備更具備國安意識與保密義務之人員的義務第三有關於3D管制區的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5079.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5109.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
目前本部建議以務實檢討逐步縮小管制區為原則並應兼顧在地原住民族意見若全面解除山地管制恐有影響當地治安與干擾原鄉生活之疑慮建請仍依人民出入台灣地區山地管制區作業規定第23點持續檢討山地管制區範圍並非以廢止為目標我們以逐步縮小以及解除管制區的方式來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5110.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5119.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
以上報告懇請各位委員會議指教謝謝謝謝我們家大陸委員會兩副主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5130.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5154.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
大家好 承蒙貴委員會邀請針對貴委員會審查國家安全法相關修正草案以下簡要說明 敬請指教長期以來中共對台統戰滲透 無孔不入嚴重威脅國家安全與社會安定中共相關行動最終目的就是要侵略台灣 消滅中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5156.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5174.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那根據國安局的統計呢2024年因為共諜案起訴的人數有64個人是2021年的三倍之多那滲透管道包括黑道幫派 地下錢莊 掩護公司 宮廟團體 民間社團等五大管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5175.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5197.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那政府雖然在109年修正了國安無法但是層出不窮的共諜案件都顯示當前的國安法制無法有效遏止這類案件的發生那法律構成要件規範有所不足司法實務偵審過程認定不易那有待相關法制進一步的完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5199.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5226.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那這一次呢提出來的法案主要有幾個重點第一個就是現行法制對於發展組織者雖然有處罰機制但是對於參與組織就沒有明確規範那所以這一次做一個補強第二點當前的國安已經不再侷限於實體的邊界那在數位技術社群媒體和經濟滲透的交互作用之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5227.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5244.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那我們必須要避免境外勢力利用網路的便利性在台灣境內進行分化與統戰所以本次行政院提案版本來強化網路數位空間中涉及國家安全部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5247.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5276.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
根據國際公約的第20條第一項規定任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應該以法律禁止之那我們已經採取該項公約所以我們所規定的需要禁止的對象基本上並不是要限制言論自由而是履行國際公約的義務然後並且增訂網路服務提供者的協力義務那建立快速反應依法下架的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5277.088 |
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5305.054 |
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那防止敵對勢力利用臺灣的言論自由來瓦解民主體制最後面對中共今年加大文攻武嚇經濟脅迫及灰色地帶氫等複合式的壓迫本會循政府的方向協同各部會滾動解套良安失誤法令那以維護國家安全希望各位大院能夠支持對國家安全有所幫助謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5307 |
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5316.907 |
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謝謝我們感謝大陸委員會兩副主任委員報告我們再來請法務部徐政務次長報告主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就病案審查行政院函請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5336.366 |
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5362.54 |
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國家安全法部分條文修正草案等案代表本部列席報告並被質詢原分數如下敬請指教前言近年來境外敵對勢力對我國滲透手法以及侵擾行為與日俱增那除了發展組織試機試探收集國防及公務機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5363.632 |
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5382.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
挖角高科技的人才不法竊取科技產業的機密以外更與在地協力者合作介入選舉干預我國民主制度那為維護我國民主憲政秩序及國家競爭力有完備健全國安法制之必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5383.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5410.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那感謝各位委員長期對於我國國安法制的關心行政院日前已通過國家安全法部分條文修正草案含請大院審議那令大院多位委員亦提案修法深切呼應國人對於國家安全保障之因應期盼本部對於諸位委員所提修正草案的之目的呢均表示支持及贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5411.758 |
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5427.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
以下簡要說明行政院草案行政院版草案的內容那內容概述如下第一我們增訂了參與組織的不法太樣那現行法對於單純參與組織者呢無法處處罰那為了填補法制的漏洞那於修訂條文第二條增訂參與組織罪第二修正發展組織罪構成要件於 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5441.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5469.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
修正條文第二條第七條將意圖危害國家安全或社會安定之構成要件修正為足以深危害於國家安全及社會安定之刑事適性犯要件以適度調整並明確化構成要件門檻剛才有委員垂詢到這一個部分我想意圖犯不是只有單單舉證困難而是在認定上有點模糊地帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5470.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5480.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
有時候反而會增加被調查人員他的恐慌是不是有執法人員沒有一定的標準今天事性犯他有一定的客觀上的可以觀察的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5484.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5510.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那如果說這個行為這個組織以及參與了這個組織他這個行為足以生危害於國家安全跟社會安定是有一個客觀的標準那這些我們在審查裡面看得出來已經造成國家的一個安全跟社會的安定這個時候才會入罪所以這個並不是前置人民的自由或結社的自由而是反而是提供一個更明確的標準讓人民有所依歸 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5513.308 |
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5537.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
不要隨便去組織或者是參與一些可以危害到國家安全跟社會安定的組織我想這個是使我們的構成要件更加的明確以讓人民有所遵循那第三涉層級化的處罰跟加重處罰的規定那會修正第七條第八條第十五條之一就國家安全法之罪把它區分成 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5539.167 |
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5559.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
大陸地區香港澳門及境外敵對勢力或者是外國犯之而分涉呢 層級化的處罰規定另外大陸地區香港澳門及境外敵對勢力犯本法之罪及現役軍人公務人員犯本法之罪會有另訂加重處罰的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5561.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5587.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
第四 規範中間人責任那參考反滲透法第九條後段的規定那於修正條文第八條之一明文的規範受外國勢力所吸收是在地協力者或者是在轉指示者的中間人的責任第五 提前剝奪退胸給予遺囑亦適用之有鑒於現行的國家安全法第十三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5587.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5613.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
就領有退休奉給之人與涉及國家安全之相關犯罪時須以有罪判決確定 只能剝奪其退休奉給那實務上常有曠日廢食而追繳不義 難以嚇阻之缺肉語言修訂第13條 增加暫停給付退休給予的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5613.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5634.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
已收陳警嚇阻之效並保全日後執行針對領有撫恤金遺屬年金的遺囑以適用之今日併案審查的各位委員提案的版本修正的目的均與本部立場一致本部慎表敬佩那委員所關切的中間人責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5635.326 |
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5640.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
為大陸地區香港澳門及境外敵對勢力犯國安法之罪的層級化處罰以及領有國家俸禄的軍公職人員違法時的加重規定還有擴大喪屍退休奉給適用範圍增訂暫停請領退休奉給之不利益處分等相關的事項涉及國家安全法制的健全與完整那攸關國家安全跟全民的福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5662.699 |
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5671.188 |
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經審慎研議後略作修正後於行政院版草案中予以徵修敬請參酌相關法治意見請參照本部今日提出之書面報告以上報告敬請主席及各位委員執降謝謝我們感謝法務部習政務次長的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5686.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5689.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
現在其他單位報告請委員自己自行參閱並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5696.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5704.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
現在進行這順 委員這順前 原來做規範的規定的選舉本委的委員發言的時間5分鐘 必要的時間延長2分鐘為本委的委員發言的時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5718.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5727.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
到可以10點半在市發言會定期本組會議就沒有要處理臨時起案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有沒有齁好這樣我們就請今天的定期第一位委員蘇朝慧委員進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5756.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5762.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 謝謝主席我想請這個法務部政務次長徐次長加政務次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5766.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5793.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
委員長市長好市長這是我們這一屆立法委員到今天這個差不多有兩年的時間今天這個在以國民黨委員為主的程序發言當中我第一次在兩年來深刻的感覺到原來憲法是重要的原來權力分立是重要的每一項行政權力立法權力不應該超出自己的本分去越前侵犯到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5795.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5801.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
總項目這個今天我們都再一次終於聽到出現在國民黨委員的口中甚至我們也聽到了說這個法律條文的文字要明確不要模糊免得有構陷人民之虞哇這些論點我們真的是這不就是我們講了兩年的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5817.066 |
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5838.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我覺得2026年新年新希望如果大家都能夠往這個方向共同前進尊重憲法 遵守權利分立的原則在自己的本位上面好好做事未嘗不是一個新的開始畢竟我們還有兩年的時間好 這個感觸我相信法務部一定比我更深啦你不好回答也沒有關係啦我替你回答啦你不好評論委員好 那我讓你評論你可以評論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5843.974 |
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5868.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
次長 這個國家安全社會安定是重要的嘛是國安法就是第一條開宗明義就是為了保障國家安全為了維護社會安定特制定本法那我想請問次長我們國安法才幾年前剛修從上次修法之後法的適用狀況如何有多少類型的攻擊這部法適用的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5870.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5889.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
有沒有需要再調整的地方不然我們今天也不會在這裡我給你一點簡短的時間回答一下因為這一個條文是目前我們案件在試用上是遭遇到一些問題也就比較我們今天提出來的草案裡面就很明顯的就看得出來就是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5891.174 |
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5908.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們在實務上發現單純的參與它事實上對我們國家安全還是會造成一定的危害可是沒有找不到在這個國家安全法裡面我們找不到任何一個司法的規定參與的這種部分是法沒有規定到的等於是當時漏了這樣子的一部分有漏洞的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5909.04 |
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5919.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那也有一些犯罪類型可能是法律條文這樣寫可是發現對應到行為模式的時候沒有辦法對應起來所以也沒有辦法處置今天的狀況大概是這樣所以我們今天的修正是一個補漏洞朝著要維護國家安全維護社會安定的方向在補漏洞所以針對過去的一些狀況我們來做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5932.037 |
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5940.46 |
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好 次長我們都是法律人我們都是學法的我甚至我也當過律師在當立法委員之前我們來請教你一個問題我們這個法條用語是模糊的時候可以管轄的範圍比較大還是是用字精確的時候管轄的範圍比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5952.085 |
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5960.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
法條如果規定很模糊那執法這個困擾但是它真的會變得反而可以管得比較大嘛對不對所以有時候我們有意義的有意識的要讓它可以稍微管寬一點模糊一點然後甚至是在講完了概念之後下面用例式而不是列舉這樣的狀態嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5971.84 |
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5979.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那所以我們很清楚的知道如果我們是法律要來限制人民的權利的時候那條文的文字是越精準越明確理論上人民的權利受到越多的保障沒錯嘛對不對剛剛國民黨的委員也是這樣要求希望這一部對人民權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5991.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6002.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
有所限制的法律要文字能夠清楚好那我們把現行條文和修正條文拿出來做對照現行條文和修正條文就是今天要討論的草案版本拿出來做對照市長你跟我們說明一下我們開宗明義今天要討論的第一項今天國安法修正到底要討論什麼的這件事情第二條我們到底是擴大範圍還是縮小範圍所以跟委員報告 |
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6018.686 |
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6029.815 |
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原來的條文在第七條規定是意圖也就是行為人他自己心裡想的我只要意圖危害國家安全或社會安定第七條嘛對 第七條那這樣的意圖常在心裡有看不到的就有你只要想一想可能都犯罪囉對 想在心裡頭那我們來偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6039.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6043.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這個是偵辦上的困難而且也對於行為行為人來講也會比較危險那今天我們修法是把它修成四刑犯是應該要他這一個發言人要有具體的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6054.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6066.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
找去定你的罪嘛對 要他的具體行為在客觀上已經可以觀察到他足以生危害於國家安全跟社會安定好 所以這是第七條反正是把意圖拿掉縮小這個範圍嘛那我們到第二條來看的話第二條本來我們的這個文字裡面是發起資助主持操縱指揮或發展組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6078.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6100.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
就已經是屬於犯罪行為了那我們現在加了什麼樣的文字我們不是就加了後面我這個粗體字後面的這句話嗎來次長你說明一下好了我們又加了一個就是足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定所以是把我們的犯罪行為要明確到你有這些發起資助主持操縱指揮發展組織甚至是要到足以 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6103.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6107.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
危害國家安全的時候才會變成犯罪行為我們把客觀化了把客觀化了是啊那我就不懂了那剛剛我們在程序發言一個多小時國民黨委員到底是在說我們把範圍擴大擴大到什麼樣的程度呢好再來他們說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6120.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6137.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
還有其他條其他條什麼鼓吹啊鼓吹是什麼意思那第四條的部分來講的話任何人第四條我們也再講第四條好了第四條原來的條文文字也就現行法條文文字只有一項國家安全之維護應及於中華民國領域內網際空間及其實體空間沒錯吧這是現行條文對不對這是內政部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6144.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6149.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
沒關係 你用做法律人來跟我對話啦我不要再換時間不要再上下台的時間了好 我們現在增加的這個部分的話是增加了多少我們增加兩項耶增加了這麼多耶不是任何在網路上面的行為我就把你定為犯罪行為我是認為你在網路上裡面只有在發動戰爭而且是對我國發動戰爭或採取非和平手段消滅我國主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6173.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6175.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
有這樣的行為才會變成是觸犯國安法不是嗎所以這是縮小範圍啊明確定義未來的犯罪行為到底是什麼不是這樣嗎所以這今天整個的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6189.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6192.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
其實是在把犯罪行為更明確讓國人更有安全讓國家更有安全不是就是這樣嗎這要說出來啦這個絕對不是在限制人民自由變成講得好像我們在前置言論自由我覺得這是完全不是事實這就是錯假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6210.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6236.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這就是錯假訊息啊所以我希望等一下因為我一個人的時間有限所以透過各位委員的詢答我希望行政部行政部門的各部會能夠具體的說明我們是如何在維護國家安全和保障人民權益之間取得一個最適的方案這才是今天國家安全法修正草案提出來的意義沒錯吧市長是好希望你們等一下能夠具體表述謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6239.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6240.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好 謝謝委員謝謝 我們感謝蘇巧慧委員我們家張志倫委員之選好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位同仁 大家好有請內政部馬政次家馬政次 內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6273.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6298.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
馬政治好今天對於排審行政院函行審議的國家安全法修正草案那剛剛本席有程序發言因為這個國安法修法之事體大當然我們不希望這次的修法法律的不確定性的內容觀念以及行政權擴權的危機會影響到人民會擔心是不是言論審查會被箝制言論或是網路戒嚴等等相關的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6299.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6318.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以我這邊要請教這個馬政次的一個部分就是說在草案第四條裡面新增禁止鼓吹戰爭等等的言論那違反的話是由誰來開罰那這個審查權是誰來審查那已經有很多的法學博士有提出這是高度政治性的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6319.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6345.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
如果交由行政單位來掌控非常有可能會造成這個違憲的疑慮那我想要請教這個馬政次就是如果有些政黨來主張如果他們說要台獨然後是不是也是鼓吹戰爭造成兩岸兵兇戰委是不是也是鼓吹戰爭的一個言論那如果是民眾想要和平希望不要打仗 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6346.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6371.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
是不是會被認定為投降主義也是不是會認定為鼓吹戰爭等等所以我們要想的意思就是為什麼要召開公聽會我們需要透過大家的聲音專家學的聲音以及會受影響的人的聲音來去把這個法律在修正前讓民眾有充分的了解不是讓這個未來的執政黨或行政單位隨意解釋來或者是變成整肅一擊的一個工具是不是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6372.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6380.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
正式回答一下 何秀 鼓吹戰爭在第四條裡面的條文非常清楚就是說他是要鼓吹戰爭來消滅我國主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6382.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6402.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以鼓吹戰爭是一個非常明確的概念那剛剛委員所提的幾個例子都不在這個範圍裡面那你可不可以舉例就是只要大概是什麼樣的講法就是你可不可以示例一下委員剛舉的三個例子比如說主張台灣獨立或者是主張這個和平協議或者是主張跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6403.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6426.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
各個國家他想要跟我說兩岸和平交流不是和平協議兩岸和平交流也是一樣就這都是屬於言論自由的範圍我們並不在這個國安法第四條修法的這個過程這個範圍裡面所以您是不是在可以明確講如果就您現在來講因為這法案還沒過嘛就你來講什麼樣的情況會是您說的鼓吹戰爭要由要由這個相關部會比如說過去有好幾個網紅在 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6429.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6442.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個網路上鼓吹解放軍攻擊台灣或者是歡迎解放軍攻擊台灣這類的言論我們基本上就是鼓吹戰爭很明確很明確那第二個我來請教一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6443.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6465.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
現在就是第四條的部分就是就像你之前講如果有一些這個網紅如果講說武統台灣這個當然本席也非常不支持如果這種言論就一定支持就會 就像你講的會罰最高是一百萬元那現在的處罰是如何如果這個草案還沒通過的話現在有相關的處罰嗎跟委員報 我們事實上有另外一條是刑法151條 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6466.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6491.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那刑法151條有提到說以加害生命身體財產之事恐嚇公眾自為害於公安者他會處於兩年以下有期徒刑所以這是屬於刑法的範圍那剛剛委員所提到包括這個國安法第四條他是介於我們的刑法151條跟言論自由中間的這個灰色地帶所以剛剛委員所提到就是說如果以目前來講進行這個言論如果他有明確的主張要攻擊的對象的話他會落到刑法151條 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6493.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6514.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那如果沒有一個具體的攻擊對象他只是說鼓吹戰爭的話我們目前是沒有法律可以處理那這個對國人來講他造成很大的心理威脅所以剛剛在報告的時候也提到因為我們現在面對非常嚴峻的國安威脅所以這一類的言論我們必須按照國際公約相關的規定有所管制這個是提出這個法案修正的一個目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6514.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6535.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好謝謝鄭次因為您剛剛的回應我相信未來這個我們都可以來審視也希望行政單位在審查人民的言論的時候要特別的注意就是就像你講的範圍是明確的不是說不明確那第二個我要請教就是今天很多委員也特別在程序發言提到第四之一條就是在網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6536.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6559.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
的部分會不會讓人民在網路上的一些言論要求一些我們現在大家所知道的一些Facebook這些社群媒體要來把它給下架所以剛剛也有我們其他委員說這不就是數位仲介法的借屍還魂嗎那41條裡面有特別的提到我來跟你簡單敘述一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6559.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6589.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
他說內政部可以會經法務部速發部陸委會得令網際網路平台提供者在網際網路平台內容就是裡面就是可以來去限制一些終止一些服務的措施那裡面你們在立法說明裡面有提到如果偽冒我國政治人物談話相關不實或不當言論可能造成無法回復的損害就要管制的必要那我想要解釋裡面的內容什麼叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6590.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6607.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
可能造成無法管制的損害以及什麼叫做相關不實或不當言論這個由誰來決定而且內政部你們怎麼去做這件事你們有這樣的量能去做這樣的事情嗎這個部分還是要跟我們包括法務部跟入委會我們要來研商整個這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6608.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6637.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
但是跟委員報告過去這一類的言論並不是說完全沒有我們行政管制的措施比如說兒少性影像的問題或者說詐騙的問題我們直接就是用行政手段請他來停止不然的話他對後續的危害會造成更大的一個風險就像我們這次北捷的事件一樣我們如果沒有在這後面的兩個星期將網路上所有威脅公眾的這個言論下架的話那就會造成我們民眾到跨年都還在恐慌這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6637.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6663.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以我想這個標準是一致的非常一致的不好意思那個趁勢你要沒有回答我的問題現在講的是有關於這個就是說什麼叫做偉貌我國政治人物的談話相關不實跟不當言論這個是什麼樣的舉例你可以舉例是什麼樣的內容比如說如果有帳號偽造委員的這個談話然後用AI生成或者是用其他的方式或是扭曲發言如果有這樣的做法未來會如何處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6664.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6693.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們目前的話 按照第四條之一我們會用會審的方式來處理那如何處罰會有會審法嗎 處罰就按照第四條的規定就是法 也是最高法以來對 它也是行政法 它就是行政處分所以本席想要請教政次的原因就是說其實這樣子的處罰的內容跟這樣子的認定內容其實現在各部會其實沒有一個如何去判斷所以第一個我們要提的是說到底是哪一個主管機關來確認說這些是錯誤或不實的訊息其實剛剛政次你沒有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6694.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6702.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
的這個回應啊那如果就這樣子因為很多人會轉傳信息嘛LINE上看到訊息就轉傳那如果這樣子的話民眾就會被處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6704.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6723.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
的話我們會認為就是行政權會來決定人民可以看什麼不能看什麼這個標準沒有很確定會讓人覺得是有行政的擴權的一個問題那比如說比如說現在我們有想說如果民眾去轉發的內容如果這樣子的話就會被罰我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6725.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6741.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
還是要請馬政司喔?這個我們基本上行政手段還是會有一個橫平性不會說轉發或是什麼我們就完全去做處分這個要看個案的狀況所以剛剛我們主席也宣布我們會召開公聽會我想在公聽會的過程裡面應該會有不同的意見我們會再來收整 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6742.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6762.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好那最後還是要拜託馬政次就是在公聽會的時候我們是支持這個國家安全可是不能讓國家安全變成國安之民行擴權之時那就是說還是要在公聽會的時候也是要請你們再把我們提出來的問題再仔細來說明一下好謝謝委員我們不會擴權我們是基本上就是依照證據來處理這個問題好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝張志倫委員我們請張鴻祿委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6785.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6811.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我請內政部馬次長還有法務部徐次長還有經濟部委員長早其實國家安全國家安全大家嘴巴都在講言論自由大家嘴巴也都在講但這個徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6813.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6820.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
言論自由 那我如果公眾羞辱人罵人有沒有在言論自由的保障範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6822.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6842.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
跟委員報告言論自由絕對是憲法保障的權利之一但是這個也是會有限制也就是說他不能去侵害到別人他不能危害到社會秩序也不能危害到國家安全如果有這些行為的話憲法也會規定有一定的限制我們先不要講到國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6843.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6864.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我在公共場所有沒有公然侮辱 有嘛那有沒有受言論自由的保障就是限制了 當然限制嘛我們是追求言論自由我們一定要百分之百的支持言論自由但是我們在現行的法律我們在支持言論自由下也沒有無限擴張嘛 對不對所以咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6869.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6883.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
身為一個國家的主人 所有的人民應該也要追求國家安全吧 對不對如果國家沒有安全你有再多的什麼都沒有用我們今天很多人在講限制言論自由或限制什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6884.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6907.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我覺得這都是可以探討的一個法律要通過很多都可以探討但我認為大家都忽略了很多的事情為什麼特別請經濟部上我們這次的修法裡面這裡面國家核心關鍵技術這個跟政治有沒有關係你們都可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6911.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6925.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
國家核心關鍵技術都有關係這跟經濟跟政治都有關係都有嘛對不對所以我們這次的修法裡面經濟部我想請問一下國家核心關鍵技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6928.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6950.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
如果我們比如說我們的半導體業我們不要指名哪一間不然好了 沒關係就講嘛台積電或什麼特別的關鍵技術嘛會不會有敵對勢力或是中國或是其他國家要來竊取我們這個商業機密 國家機密 會不會報偉 我想國家核心關鍵技術目前來講確實有些是涉及到營業秘密的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6953.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6979.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我剛剛就講 我剛剛的問題是會不會有其他的敵對勢力或其他國家要來想辦法竊取我們這些商業秘密這些國家關鍵核心關鍵技術 會不會有我想委員 報告委員這部分或許別的國家還是敵對勢力因為記憶就是有關於不管是台積電或我們很重要的關鍵技術的時候它假設要突破這個技術它可能會造過偷竊或許 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6980.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7000.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
對這些該當的不管是敵對勢力或外國任何一個團體都有可能發生的事情嗎都有可能發生嘛 是有沒有發生過我想目前來講在報紙上有些確實有發生過好 就有發生過就好了嘛對不對 是有發生過我們不用去制止嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7002.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7026.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以鮑威我想在這部分我們在營業秘密上面假如萬一發生竊取營業秘密這部分會回歸到我們營業秘密這部分也有相關的事情什麼叫回歸到營業秘密這次的法條你都沒有看到喔修正裡面國家核心關鍵區我們也是要保障這一部分啊對啊 你剛剛想什麼回到 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7027.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7050.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就是說營業秘密也有那這次國安法裡面也有確實相關涉及到偷竊國家核心關鍵技術對啊 是嘛對不對 你就回答我是或不是就好了嘛是嘛 對嘛所以這個也不只是對於我們剛剛講的言論自由的限制或什麼的其實對於整個台灣未來國家的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7051.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7076.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們如果這些國家核心關鍵技術被人家拿走了被人家用過不正當的手段敵對勢力或什麼的對台灣的國際競爭力對台灣的保護對台灣人民的生命財產尤其是財產可能少賺很多錢我們今天所有的修法其實不只這些對不對那個馬次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7079.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7105.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我剛剛所說的台積電這個或是半導體業這個國家核心關鍵基礎這是一項但你們應該也接受很多敵對勢力或外國或敵對勢力他對我們的基礎建設或對有發動了很多的攻擊發動很多什麼這是不是事實報案委員是事實比如說海蘭我們就常被切斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7106.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7129.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
就事實嘛 對不對 那事實我們要不要防範我們要 而且關鍵基礎設施裡面有非常多並不一定屬於所謂的政府營運的部分所以我剛剛沒有講關鍵兩字喔我剛剛特別只有講基礎設施而已喔我還沒講到關鍵喔 對不對連這個基礎設施都有 那我再請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7131.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7154.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
如果有人要透過不正當的手段拿到我們台灣所有人的就醫資料或是說馬市長你家住哪裡 你每天去吃什麼這個對國家安全會不會有危害這個絕對是 因為我們可以看得到就是說各個國家對於各種不同的包括各自的保護或者是基礎設施的資訊的保護它都是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7155.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7171.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我今天為什麼要提出不同面向我跟你講如果從全台灣人的就醫制度裡面來看我們全台灣每年消耗最多的藥品是哪一個如果對台灣有不友善的敵對勢力或什麼我想辦法切斷你所有的用藥台灣人怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7174.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7195.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有沒有這個可能有可能有可能而且不只是藥品我們還有一些其他的比如說能源或者是其他都是一樣的我們就講藥品就好了嘛對不對可能大家會覺得啊這個修國安法什麼跟他沒有相干但我就只舉這個我們的就醫資料健保資料有心人透過這樣拿到了主動我們拿到所有的藥品 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7196.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7222.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這台灣人怎麼辦 再來每個人的住所 每個人什麼也有可能 對不對所以我在這邊就是說今天我們修這個國安法其實我個人認為沒有那麼多政治就是要保護台灣人 保護我們的經濟保護台灣能夠繼續永遠走下去我剛舉的這些 那你再講一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7223.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7237.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對不對 如果你拿到你所有的手機裡面的資料你每天打給誰 你每天幹什麼哇 全台灣現在打電話打到哪個國家最多的哇 可能跟那個國家經貿往來密切 哇 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7240.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7268.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
阻斷台灣的經貿發展這都是有可能的對不對而且已經在發生了根緣報已經在發生所以舉這幾個例子要讓全台灣人民知道我們今天修這個國安法其實是為了保護台灣人民對不對沒錯 謝謝委員因為這個都是在現在進行事所以我們修這個法基本上已經不是未來事了我們是在處理彌補過去我們安全上的漏洞謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7271.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7297.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
謝謝我們感謝張鋒祿委員我們請李博裕委員接受來 有請陸委會副主委請陸委會副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7301.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7321.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
副主委一定有很多話想說那我們一步一步來其實今天也是感謝網美會召委安排審查國家安全法的草案國民黨居然提出要遵守憲法國民黨居然提出要 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7322.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7345.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
真開公聽會這不就是都是我們過去兩年來一直的主張嗎好那我們現在來開公聽會準備來開公聽會但是我還是希望藉由今天的詢答那可以讓社會大眾知道我們在處理什麼國安法案副主委我請問你你有沒有收到消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7347.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7373.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
中華民國內政部長劉世芳跟教育部長鄭英耀剛剛被國台辦宣布為台獨頑固分子是 我們知道這是最新的消息嗎對那我們目前台灣的有哪一些方式我們目前這一個今天的幾個修法裡面有哪幾個法案我們希望可以針對協力者或者是可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7376.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7400.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
會針對台灣的國家安全造成影響的這幾條我們有什麼方式可以來處理第一個在上個會期的時候我曾經質詢那就是有一個不明的APP那它的名義是投誠歸家它每天都會上傳今天台北市有幾個人投誠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7400.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7414.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
今天新北市有幾個人又登記投誠了投誠到中華人民共和國了這個APP你知道嗎這個我知道那我們現在如果沒有修法的情況下這個APP我們要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7417.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7443.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
目前我們所知道這個APP還沒有正式的上市它應該還是屬於測試的階段它會層次不窮但是如果它一旦出現以我們目前的法律來說是沒有辦法拿它毫無辦法所以我們要修這個國安法當你不會看到一個APP出現的時候說剩你們這是少數啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7444.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7458.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
他這種恐嚇式然後引導式讓台灣人心生恐懼嘛但是目前是沒有辦法所以我們目前陸委會還有法務部內政部我們討論出來的這一個內容我們希望他怎麼樣處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7460.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7477.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以照目前來講我們現在對於網路上的我們只有兒少法或者是屬於那種詐騙案我們就把它認定成詐騙對 但是這樣的認定方法實在是只是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7478.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7506.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
只是一個權宜的做法所以實際上我們應該要對 我們應該要面對問題的核心就是說面對這樣的APP或這樣的網站這樣明確為中共宣傳或明確為這個要消滅中華民國宣傳的這些網站或APP那我們是主張是要在國安法裡面來做一個特別的條文那也就是說我們現在所提出來的第四條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7506.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7520.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那第四條之一它並不是一個刑事上面的法律它是一個行政處罰也就是說我們並不想要它行政處罰的意思就是它沒有牽涉到言論自由你還是可以發表嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7523.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7541.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我的意思是說我們第四條之一就是用緊急等於算是把它當作一個緊急事態然後立刻把它要求相關的單位或是相關的網路平台要把它移除掉很合理啊當人民遇到詐騙或當國家遇到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7543.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7569.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
國家安全的問題當然要及時的把它處理掉是 所以我們第四條之一的寫法跟兒少或者是這個反詐騙法的寫法是類似的我們做法是類似的也就是說它基本上還沒有牽涉到說後面的追溯我們就是用這個處理緊急事件的方式先讓它下架 先讓它移除 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7569.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7593.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那這樣的話才能夠避免傷害進一步發生這樣子對就是大門大路就是對人民遇到詐騙我們希望趕快把這個不實廣告訊息下架國家遇到安全問題的時候我們也希望趕快把這些疑似有安全疑慮的問題可以下架是的是的好謝謝謝謝副主委來我請法務部次長副主委請請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7598.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7620.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
委員好一直被民眾反映 而且是非常激烈的反映那就是說針對今天的第13條的這一個修法那過去很多民眾也反映就是說為什麼這些 比如說退役的將領他可能去到中國然後參加了某一些活動之後那他還可以領月退奉等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7622.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7645.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我舉兩個案例跟次長討教一下退役軍官 前富康聯盟黨主席徐宏毅收受中國資金 發展同袍組織拍攝美國在台協會 阿里山雷達屏東三軍聯合基地等等目前他有沒有繼續在領月退 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7649.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7658.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個可能要問人事單位好 我跟你說那我再講清楚一點他現在判依國安法判處10年有期徒刑全案可上訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7659.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7680.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那請問他現在依照還未修法的這個他有沒有辦法領月退還是可以領還是可以領對這個就是大家在罵的地方是那這一次修法裡面我們改變了什麼我們這一次行政院提出什麼樣對這一次修法只要違反所列的這六款的情形包括像剛才講國安法那我們在第一層 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7681.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7693.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
宣告判有歧途性以上的話就已經就停止他50%對嘛停止50%他以後如果清白就還是那如果以後如果是清白那我們就會再補發 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7694.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7722.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那如果說最後是有罪判決確定的話全部都要都要繳已經就不再讓他領然後已經領了從犯罪時間開始以後全部要追回所以第13條其實我們就是針對這一些在一審判決到真正判決他會有一個很冗長的時間嘛對那你讓國人的印象就是這些人明明我們就知道他做了這個事情他就在那裡然後但是他還沒有判決確定所以他繼續在領中華民國的這些月退奉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7723.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7734.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
是所以我們希望可以明確那也說明清楚那把我們在國安法裡面我們在修正的方向可以跟國人說明清楚是謝謝李博弈委員再來我們請王美惠召委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7756.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7773.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
主席 我們現在任職部次長好 請馬次長委員早安早 早 早次長 從早到現在大家看到國安法的時候我們站在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7783.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7793.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
國民黨的 覺得很緊張我認為一個教育 我想說今天禮拜這個 因為我覺得長久以來我覺得很多台灣人 念台灣體育金長久以來都違背台灣做事情在這個發展中 我們有覺得不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7809.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7815.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
尤其最近你應該有看到我們的國票 這樣大家都走過國在那裡收票 在那裡戰爭 在那裡衝海船 台灣郵輪國票一直去 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7827.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7828.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
所以我們台灣有富國神山不是只有一個而已我們的老總統國我們的富國神山有很多有很多的當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7840.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7841.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我們也希望他可以在台灣平平安安去做他的專業 他的東西我們的政府可以保護他這個是最重要的在這個過程當中 剛才馬子仁也有說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7861.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7867.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
之前幾年前在北京的時候發生那樣的事情如果沒有我們的承辦人員的信號我相信今天大家也很高興不知道當時還要發生什麼事情不知道在北京的車頭還要回到這個問題所以在這個過程當中我覺得自己想法的就要想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7890.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7893.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們不用怕 我們是保護全台灣中華民國百姓的權利沒有說一句 我不聽在以前 他們可以美總統到現在 美總統還認為他沒有不對但是在這個過程中 還可以我看到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7913.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7914.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
是要讓我們台灣中華民國的言論更好更好有一個範圍裡面不然你有時候都想說哎呦 跟這個不知道會出發或不會出發 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7929.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7931.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
在這個過程當中 我覺得百姓有的是無敵的有的參與的 有的是用做這個做這個裡面 有罪 參與的沒罪但是現在有的百姓 說說對人去背謀啦人家說台灣要怎麼樣 他也跟人家說怎麼樣啦所以在這個過程當中 我們的網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7958.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7962.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
也是真的 金屬油 但是對台灣的肥沃也很多所以在這個過程當中 有如何今天我們有很多的草案的時候 你要補充什麼來好 謝謝委員支持啦 我想主要的原因在於說我們現在面對的是一個要併吞台灣的政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7983.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8009.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那這樣的一個態勢尤其是在過去這幾年是非常的明顯所以國安法今天的修正其實是面對中國跟解放軍對台灣這種全領域的這種併吞行為我們要做一些回應所以剛剛委員一開始提到經濟事實上包括我們在資訊戰包括我們在這個國防甚至包括我們在社會的輿論上面有很多的假訊息都是因為這樣子而產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8011.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8013.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為今天我特別來講這個網路這個問題因為網路有時候說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8019.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8022.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
也做到 那做到有影響 跟寒暄又一樣所以這個問題是非常嚴重的有時候說 阿嬌阿要跑來 阿嬌阿要跑來如果一個人說不覺得什麼如果10月年尾議說的時候 這會怕人所以在網路這個區塊 我們非常重要不是說言論的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8046.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8048.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
十八分之一百 但是有時候危害中華民國台灣的人我們也要去勤奮一點 所以今天想這個國安法的時候我們也能夠對中華民國更好 讓北省有那麼多的保障這才是應該的 不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8068.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8091.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
對 我想委員的觀點非常的同意因為其實我們現在修國安法是要保障大多數人的民主自由的制度所以包括說我們現在可以看得到在網路上包括剛剛委員提到的虛假言論或者是未冒名人或者是未冒我們的政治人物的言論我們在國安法裡面這次的修訂都會去衡量它的情節 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8092.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8121.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
它的情節重大的時候我們會做處理也就是說在言論自由的部分我們還是會去保持一個橫平性這個部分剛剛也有跟委員報告過就是說像我們目前在兒少性剝削防治條例裡面的八之一條的第六項裡面其實也有類似的規定重大情節我們必須要去做馬上的處理所以這個也是要保障不管是兒少或者是保障我們國民的民主自由的制度這個都是一貫的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8122.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8123.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好 來 我們請法務部來 市長 這裡面本來要跟你討論的就是這個第13條的草案裡面有正經替我們中華民國 台灣付出很多的這個公家機關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8145.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8148.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
做兵也好 上班也好在這個過程 但是他現在已經拿退休金了但是在退休金的當中 讓人利用一定會中華民國的福祉在這個過程 剛才你也有說 醫生的錢可以如果一支 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8168.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8173.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
50%嘛 但是本身要那麼關心的就是說等一來他替國家付出保護國家 我們應該要照顧這是沒有錯 但是有時候他已經離開了 他的配合只有一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8189.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8194.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
會破風 但是他的配合在那一半會破風的時候是比台灣人還要惡劣在那一幕中華民國台灣的不是不夠自由 不夠民主這個 你想今天的草案可以補充這個奇怪的什麼來 你回答這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8212.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8232.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
根據我們的草案那第13條的第5項就是針對這一個遺囑的部分那遺囑的部分如果也有跟第一項所列的各款的一個違法的適由那一樣我們第一項到第4項的一些剝奪權利的部分呢對於遺囑呢一樣是適用的因為今天為什麼要來談論這個因為不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8236.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8239.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這裡蓋台灣的退休金跟保護到處掩蓋台灣的不適這是非常不應該所以本市立委這個法條草案一定要趕快在這裡來完成不說實在 不知道我們台灣人兩千三百萬人交的稅金跟交的錢給這樣侮辱台灣是非常不應該 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8267.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8268.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
是謝謝委員謝謝感謝黃姐委員好謝謝主席我們先請內政部馬次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8300.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8320.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
委員早安好 次長好今天這個國安法的修法非常重要我認為不分黨派都應該要站出來支持是因為現在滲透的形態已經變得非常的多樣多元那大家如果真的都認為國家安全很重要守護台灣很重要就不應該像剛剛在程旭發言的時候一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8321.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8339.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
藍白不斷的用說什麼打壓言論自由然後說什麼在野黨的意見未來不能表達然後說什麼未來只要跟我們總統的意見跟執政黨的意見不一致就會受到打壓請問我們現在修法的內容有包含這些嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8340.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8350.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
包委員完全沒有我想在正常的言論自由範圍內以及我們對於時事政務的評論這都不在我們這次的國安法的一個修法的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8351.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8379.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
好 謝謝次長的說明像剛剛藍白罵我們執政黨罵這麼久也都沒事嘛他們過去罵這麼久也都沒事嘛都不會有事所以就完全不在我們這次修法的範圍裡面我不太懂為什麼剛剛要花這麼多時間來討論跟今天修法無關的內容那他們說這個羅織罪名說我們未來修法之後反而會羅織更多罪名在我看來完全錯誤理解今天的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8379.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8399.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們今天的修法應該是要把我們的法律更明確化未來更精確更限縮更知道要觸犯法律會要符合什麼樣的要件才對吧次長委員講的完全正確我想羅茲罪名也好或者是前置言論自由也好這個在我們這次修法裡面是完全不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8400.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8426.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
因為這次的修法包括說我們剛剛有提到我們會參考國際公約的標準那麼國際公約上面對於人權的保障言論自由的保障他都有一定的規範所以我們不會去超越這樣的一個規範那在我們修法的過程裡面也經過包括跟學者專家還有各部門的討論所以剛剛包括其他委員所提到的這些問題都並不在這次的修法的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8427.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8450.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好 謝謝次長的說明剛剛其實幾位委員不斷地拿鄭南榮我們非常尊敬的前輩出來背書說要支持百分之百的言論自由但是完全錯用了鄭南榮前輩論述的內容百分之百的言論自由是要捍衛人權是要守護民主而不是拿著百分之百的言論來消滅我們的民主國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8451.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8477.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以我聽到的時候其實非常的心痛我們在乎的人權 在乎的民主怎麼會在這種挫制的情況底下拿鄭南榮前輩出來背書所以剛剛其實次長有講到這個國際公約講得很清楚任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳都應該以法律禁止之這個是國際公約的精神也是所有民主國家在捍衛的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8478.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8498.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們在乎民主的話就不會讓這些什麼恐攻的言論不會讓這種恐嚇的言論侵略他國主權的言論在民主國家裡面發生如果我們認為這樣叫做言論自由那很抱歉這個是民主的自殺好謝謝次長那我們再來請法務部委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8506.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8530.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好 次長好 跟你請教一下因為其實現在共諜的形態威脅這種滲透的形態非常的多元第一種就是它滲透的對象過去可能只是高階的現役軍人但現在其實連民間的宮廟啊 一些社團啊甚至是一些台商各式各樣的對象都是他們滲透接觸的對象 是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8531.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8555.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
是所以像這樣子的漏洞在這一次的這個修法當中是不是也把滲透的對象還有一些資料收集的類型包括說過去可能要的只是一些純粹的軍事機密但現在連什麼立院助理的名單然後連沈博洋委員的住處連這種類似的這種民間的資料他們都會拿去收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8556.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8580.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
對然後再來就是所以我們現在這一次修法的這個包括對象包括收集的資料的類型還有方法的改變其實都是我認為非常重中之重非常急迫應該要馬上來補破網的內容那我在這邊舉幾個兩個簡單的例子一個是何建華一個是王秉忠那我為什麼會特別舉這兩個例子是因為這兩個人都被起訴但是被判無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8581.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8594.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那這是我當時也覺得很驚訝很明顯他們在做的執行的內容都很明顯就是統戰然後接受中共配合中共唱喝中共的一些滲透的行為啊甚至這個何建華當時他還針對我進行情搜把我一些造謠的內容提供給中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8601.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8611.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
甚至他執行的一些內容都已經很明確講說他要作為兩岸統一的極先鋒然後在黨中央當然是中共黨中央的力量配合他們然後把台灣的中配要組織起來進行兩岸的統一他都講到這麼明確了檢方也提供相關的資料了 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8621.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8646.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
可是當時的法院就是判他無罪因為他說他沒有說這個跟國安法定義的接觸招攬吸收新成員加入組織的行為本質不同所以這次的修法的內容是不是可以把以上這種很明確他已經是參與滲透組織的這種類型把它框進去是 我們的草案的第一項第二款就列進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8647.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8672.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
好 那順便在這邊請次長再次的說明包括我剛剛講到的何建華的這種例子他說因為何建華有講到說希望祖國能對在台的大陸籍人士摸底然後把這些中配進行人口的普查然後在網稿中的這個內容裡面他也有發現一個新火梯計畫然後還有把這個內容分成分級的獎金制度要針對哪一些對象台灣的軍方台灣的誰進行這些內應的勢力 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8677.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8696.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
他這個計畫都寫得非常明確當時法院判他們無罪是說他們沒有實際執行可是這個計畫跟白紙黑字就在檢方搜到的資料裡面那請問像這種類型這一次有沒有辦法也把它補進我們的這個國安法的修法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8697.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8726.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我想剛才有特別提到參與組織參與組織現在已經我們希望把它補起來參與我們第一款的所謂的足以危害國家安全跟社會安定的組織參加的部分我們會把它補起來當然行為太陽非常的多元我們會針對每一個構成要件我們會持續的去蒐證因為有時候會有一些蒐證上的一些困難不過我們會努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8726.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8752.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好 但是我必須要補充我剛剛講的這個例子檢方的證據都非常明確了甚至檢方還搜到說他王炳忠已經接觸了非常多對現役的軍人然後建立了接觸的名單然後把這個互動的進度全部都列表列得很清楚了可是法院當時判他無罪是認為說他的互動內容是只有吃飯聊天然後說這個叫做一般的社交往來 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8756.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8761.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個就是我們在偵查上收證的一些困難點因為它畢竟是很隱密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8763.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8783.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那這樣的行為在評價上面法官的評價我們也只能尊重但是如果說這個是不符合我們的判斷的話我們也依法提起上訴所以這就是我希望這一次國安法可以一併補足的部分而不是說未來只能尊重法院的判決然後法院只會說這個是一般社交往來這個沒有實際執行這個對他們來說只是他們的想像但是並沒有實際要進行發展組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8792.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8816.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
但這個內容都很明確啊對這個就不是構成要件的問題而是法官他對於他這個構成要件的解讀評價是不一樣的所以我當然會希望說這個構成要件我們把它更明確之後未來什麼叫做參與組織什麼叫做發展組織包括他滲透的對象包括他進行的行為這些樣態我們都可以更明確的來討論好嗎是是好謝謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8820.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8824.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
謝謝我們感謝黃鐵委員就是我們這裡的麥正委員謝謝主席有請行政院和內政部加內政部次長行政院張參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8857.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8873.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
委員早安市長好去年4月份有人在網路上發文就是詢問一句陳菊走了嗎結果警方在短短幾個小時內 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8874.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8893.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
就直接用社會秩序維護法 認定他散佈謠言就是足以影響公共安寧 火速移送雖然是最後不起訴 但我們請教一下發文質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8896.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8920.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
請問某一位政治人物是否過世這件事到底符不符合涉違法的三不遙遠足以影響公共安寧的構成要件呢報委員如果今天是指涉五院的院長或是任何一個高階政治人物這都是構成要件不一定是指監察院長 立法院也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8922.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8933.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這樣子的話如果符合啊這樣子說你說這樣子是符合嗎所以呢如果是這樣子的符合的話我要問你接下來這一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8934.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8960.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
有許多委員在粉專在粉專裡面社群平台每天都能看到大量的留言所以直接叫政治人物去死還有用極端的仇恨言論攻擊特定的政黨與立場刻意煽動仇恨的對立請教這些留言有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8961.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8989.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
可能符合社委法或你們修法草案所稱的就是仇恨性言論 自發性社會對立的構成要件呢我們也很害怕 我也很恐懼如果你有收到的話一定要來報案 我們一定處理全部在網路那我們一定處理 那就請警政署這邊來處理整個很多委員都有但是要報案 要報案 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8991.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9011.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
對 這個委員一定要來報案所以就是講我們陳菊的是她報案嗎還是你們就馬上接對 是有報案 接到報案所以現在就是說報案你們在處理不報案的話就是言論自由是這樣嗎報委員她不是言論自由 她基本上是違法的她不是言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9011.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9032.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
不是言論自由 當然是在我們改革的期間如果是這樣的話 有人在立法院外的大馬路設立我們國昌主席的靈堂依你們現在的社會法修法草案的理解這樣的行為符不符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9033.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9050.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
公共場所不斷言論或激化社會的對立以足影響公共的秩序的構成要件如果符合為什麼直到現在今天我們都還沒有看到任何的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9051.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9074.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
人家只是在網路上就是問一句陳菊是不是過世四天內就逼移送這種在公共場合直接放靈堂的行為為什麼可以完全沒事呢報告委員這是公然侮辱罪這個也是一樣要請我們黃國昌主席來提告提告的話我們一定處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9076.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9086.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以說變成是有人提告如果他今天是在立法院的外面的話要去跟中正一分局提告那台北市政府警察局會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9087.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9112.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以這個法修了就是有人告 不用修法包委員這是刑法的內容這不是我們現在要修的法很多人去跟你們申訴不是提告而已這個要提告所以在你們的眼中是哪一種比較可能影響公共安寧就是就問一屆還是說公開叫你去死如果沒有提告沒有人檢擊的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9115.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9137.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
比如說如果有人叫我去死的話也是我要去提告對就是有提告才有處理如果說我覺得他叫我去死我覺得無所謂也沒關係看個人如果有人叫我去死我覺得無所謂我就不會提告不是個人維護社會維護這樣子言論不是因為針對我個人而已他不是針對大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9139.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9164.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
如果他是針對比如說搭台北捷運的都去行 那就是恐嚇公眾因為我們現在要修法 還有我們要了解說每一個人這樣子的去言論 每一個人的去叫我們不怕委員剛剛提的跟我們這些修法沒有關係因為我們這個修法是國安法委員剛剛提到的一部分是社會法 一部分是現在刑法有的內容我們不管是修法還是今天質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9165.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9184.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
就是我們要講的就是維安法或者國安法國安法沒有包含這一塊所以我們想要讓你們知道的是說我們修法是要保護人民不是說有人檢舉有人怎麼樣我們是要保護國家我們國安法是要保護國家跟人民我們國家國民都要保護所以我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9190.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9207.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以說我們就看到這樣子這樣子你們都不處理要會處理所以委員一定要提告所以等一下事後我們請警政署跟委員聯絡提告才要處理因為他法律構成的要件就是要提告因為公然侮辱罪這一些或者是恐嚇他是要提告 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9208.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9231.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
他沒有提告的話我們沒辦法處理為什麼當社委法掛在批評政論就是政治的言論上的時候就是你們就是我們也不知道說是不是告但是呢你們就是急速的去動員馬上移送 立即追究但是當真正有 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9231.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9247.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
分裂性 或者是自發性的籌換你們都看到 都知道啊 新聞都看到啊但是你們有沒有對這樣的 包委如果是口賀公眾罪的話151條我們是不用提告 我們直接就偵辦了所以我們那個北捷事件之後 我們總共辦了97 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9249.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9272.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
97件 那也有羈押的所以那個是主動偵辦 但是個人的話所以這些的話是不主動偵辦 就是要有自己要去個人跟公眾是分開的 對個人跟對公眾的恐嚇是不一樣的不一樣的構成要件所以說你們說要依法嘛 依法行政這樣就是選擇性的執法 不是選擇性 抱歉它是法律的設計架構就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9275.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9280.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
對公眾的恐嚇跟對個人的恐嚇它的告訴乃論跟非告訴乃論它是不同的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9282.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9307.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以說你們是說政治清算的工具啦我覺得就是請問這個太超過了啦沒有政治清算啦因為每天很多人去檢舉不一定來去辦啦所以我說委員委員趕快來檢舉如果有比如說網路上或者是說實體上對委員有任何的言語不敬或造成威脅的話委員來檢舉因為這是屬於對委員個人的部分我們一定會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9308.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9312.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以是要檢舉才去做所以說滿天飛網路或者電視所以說都有有人跟你們去申訴或者什麼的話都不是個人的話我們都沒有去辦是別人說的這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9327.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9349.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
報委員 這個申訴的意思是指哪一個部分很多人也去說幫我們國倉委員幫我們去跟你們申訴但是呢 也不是因為個人你那個是要黃委員來報案才可以 才可以是這樣子嗎 對 別人沒辦法幫他報案我也不能幫委員報案 都不行一定要他個人 很多人在去反映啊那個是反映 就是我們會到現場去維持秩序可是如果說黃委員來報案的話我們就會進行偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9356.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9363.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以你們就是說這個維安法就是說我們要維安法那不是維安法 那是刑法 包委那是刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9365.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9377.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
對 我是說現在我們是因為現在網路一直這樣子恐嚇我們也是那個也是刑罰我們是對我們的人身安全連對我們的家人也是覺得很恐慌所以在網路都不斷的就是有這些言論委員如果覺得有人身安全的疑慮的話可以跟我們申請隨乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9392.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9420.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好 這個我們是沒辦法去約束啦因為這網路太多來去言論自由所以我們是沒辦法但是說我們是說就是可能就是破壞公共安寧的極端言論我們看到的是這樣子所以它根本是不是一部維護社會的秩序的法律而已而是說一部讓我們的就是執政黨用來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9421.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9431.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
要該辦你們說辦的就辦該不辦的就說你們說的算我們都會辦啦 有報案我們就辦這跟執政誰執政都沒有關係過去不同政黨執政也都是同一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9432.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9460.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們就是看不到標準你要往前看是同一個標準我們是往前看還是後續我們希望你未來是標準你往馬英九總統時期看到現在都是同一個標準往前還是現在未來我希望你們真的是用標準的但是我們先看就是司法迫害所以我們才要說你們不標準所以我們是要呼應我們行政院還有就是一邊推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9462.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9472.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
是社會法的就是擴權的修法一邊無法說清楚都是說我們沒有擴權我們是界定清楚這些危害公眾的言論我們沒有擴權所以這只要是說我們社會更安定而不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9488.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9494.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以希望委員支持我們我們現在國安法跟社會法修正完社會會更安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9495.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9524.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
請委員相信我們你說百分之百都不會有任何有事情是嗎是這樣的意思嗎你保證這個沒辦法百分之百全世界沒有人百分之百但是我們會讓我們會讓整個不管是社會還是國家還是人民都是我希望是說你們是你們的責任說修法法在那邊就是大家都平安我們希望的是說涉及國家安全還有說敵對勢力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9526.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9553.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
滲透鼓吹戰爭的言論未來有國安法還有就是反滲透法可以處理不要再用色違法去補刀一般的言論所以法律如果變成誰執政誰說的算那不是叫做維護秩序那就是做製造對立我們希望真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9554.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9574.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
不管是過去還是現在還是未來我們希望的是修法是保護但是執政的或者是在這個工作一定要去維護我們國民的安全這個就是我們要修法的目的沒有問題 我們想法是一致的 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝麥政委員我們請徐議政委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9590.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9602.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
謝主席 我們請內政部馬次長跟法務部徐次長加次長委員早安 次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9605.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9631.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我想請教一下就是馬司長因為其實這一次國安法的修法的一個內容為什麼引起一些質疑就是因為在這次修法的草案的第二條我們把這個將參與組織本身就入罪他就是違反這個國安的問題但是有些參與組織的人他並不知道該組織本身可能已經有犯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9631.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9658.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
相關的法令它可能只是其中一個成員而已那所以說它不是以實際有刺密 泄密或具體危害行為的一個要件而是用這個而且我們在這個立法說明裡面也講得很清楚就是說犯罪行為人主觀上是否有意圖舉證上是有困難的所以呢現在就是用一個刑事 適性犯的構成要件來去做認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9659.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9674.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那也就是說以前我們還要檢察官還必須要證明他是主觀的有這個意圖那現在拿掉之後是不是變成只要證明行為加上該組織有這樣子的一個足以身為害就能夠定罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9675.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9701.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我跟委員報告犯罪本身就要有主觀的範例這個是一定要有的那如果說這個行為人他本身對於這一個組織是完全沒有認知的他完全都不知道他只是參加完全不知道他們要做什麼這樣就不會有問題不會有過程犯罪那所以請問你們拿掉意圖這兩個字的意圖就是因為他意圖要危害社會的安定國家安全跟社會安定他有那個意圖他去 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9701.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9717.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
去發展這個組織就是這樣才會構成的第二條第一項的所以我的意思是說現在目前的官法是有現在就是因為主觀的範例藏在我們的心中是非常難證明的那因為難證明所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9718.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9744.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
有時候檢察官偵辦的時候會必須要擴大因為我們要去證明他的辦理檢察官變成說他要偵辦的範圍會變大不明確那現在因為難偵辦現在一定要客觀上對 現在是因為難偵辦所以把這個意圖拿掉讓以後這檢察官比較好偵辦標準不一樣 標準不一樣就是說我們不再去那以後檢察官會不會就說主管辦理還是要有我就是認定有意圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9745.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9763.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
主觀犯例要有而是意圖把它具體化改成是四刑犯就是足以生危害於國家安全跟社會安全就是說在客觀的事實上面是看得出來這個對國家針對這個部分我也要請問請到兩位次長就是足以生危害的標準是什麼你們現在說改成足以生危害對 足以生危害的標準是什麼譬如說這一個組織它是在我們社會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9774.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9789.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
他经常会去从事一些攻击政府攻击一般的民众社会的大众他有那一些就是说危害到你可以具体的举例一下吗因为你现在讲的感觉上也是非常空泛那认定由谁来认定 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9790.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9809.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
現在看起來我們很多修法是改由內政部來認定而不是像以前由司法單位來認定那像這樣的狀況的話要怎麼來因為剛剛講的其實都是很空泛的也是民眾所擔心的未來的國安法我可能不小心就已經這個就是違反了國安法我自己都不知道好 像 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9810.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9834.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
之前發生的向德恩的簽署那個書類就是投降的書類這個之前就是這個對民眾太遙遠了我是覺得我的意思就是說很多民眾現在為什麼擔憂這一次的修法其實當然國家安全非常的重要但是因為現在就是修了很多的法令讓我們覺得說很多未來好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9835.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9859.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
尤其是有些本來是在司法單位才能夠認定現在變成是內政部內政部就可以直接進行裁罰我們會參與對 內政部 會商你們法務部對 但主要是內政部就一個主責單位是不像以前我們可以看一下下一頁您可以看一下我們有關的這個第四條的修正就是有關公開我們現在第四條已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9861.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9881.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
新增了公開鼓吹倡議或支持戰爭及處以高額的行政罰款那請問一下兩位次長如何界定鼓吹跟評論分析跟轉述的一個界線是否存在的行政機關會以本官的官單介入鼓吹是很直接的就是鼓吹戰爭鼓吹打仗鼓吹 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9882.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9901.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
中國對台灣軍事侵略這個都是很明確的那如果說一般的人做評論分析或是轉述評論分析不在這個範圍內所以也跟委員報告比如說主張跟中國統一我知道很多委員的煩惱是說如果主張跟中國統一跟菲律賓跟越南統一但不在這個範圍內那都是言論自由一般我說實在鼓吹跟這個評論鼓吹戰爭鼓吹戰爭還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9909.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9931.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
只要是公開鼓吹倡議跟支持標準那這個因為剛剛您講的鼓吹那有明確的定義嗎比如說我們現在如果說我們主管機關現在就是內政部嘛如果你們有一個主觀的一個判斷介入言論自由的一個風險的話那民眾要怎麼來報委員這個不是主觀判斷因為我們剛剛有提到就第一個它有國際上的公約的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9932.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9948.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以我們不會是一個主觀對 我們不會是主觀判斷不會第二個就是說我們跟法務部還有陸委會我們會會商這個言論本身的內容跟他的直接對於鼓吹這件事情是不是很具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9949.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9972.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
是 因為以前我想我們相關的這個國安法很多大家經過司法的認定其實我們可以看一下尤其是第四條之一就是大家看到第四條之一之後就會想到在數年前有一個數位仲介服務法因為引起了這個全民公憤而且被輿論攻擊的體無完膚所以暫時的就被迫暫緩這個數位仲介服務法 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9972.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9986.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那我們現在看到你可以看一下內政部的第四條之一就賦予內政部在情節重大或急迫危險的情況下可以進行命令停止解析或限制接取網路的內容那請問一下這個馬次長就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9989.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10007.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
為何在未設置事前或即時司法審判機制那行政機關就是內政部會不會扮演了認定裁決跟執行者的三種角色跟委員舉個例子比如說我們現在酒駕酒駕我們直接就是扣車然後如果他有公務危險罪的話我們就移送法辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10008.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10025.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個也是我們對 他很明確所以我們現在不是只有我們現在是國安法的部分事實上我們其他的法律都有類似的規範只要是對於公眾或者是對於這個安全造成具體的威脅所以剛剛委員舉的這個例子比如說我們今天假設中共在軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10026.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10044.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那麼中共在軍演的過程裡面又有人主張就是說這個軍演趕快進到台灣來這就是一個非常明確的立即的威脅因為它可能是集體性的飽和攻擊我們現在講的是這個我所謂的這個網路的第四條可以看一下我們下一頁就是我們有做了一個比較啊就是在國安法新增的第四條之一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10049.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10070.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
像是行政機關直接就可以下令移除或限制以前數位仲介服務法還需要由這個原則上它的情境不一樣因為數位仲介法它是針對比較一般性的數位平台上面的一個治理那麼國家安全法它是針對一個特定情境所以我剛剛有跟國民報告說如果今天解放軍在外海軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10071.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10089.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
有這個飽和性的訊息攻擊的時候我們就會採取這個重大的示範民眾會擔憂就是因為很多的界定不清楚比如說像大家一下子就會想到這是數位仲介法不是 這個跟委員報告這完全不一樣而且是加強版的對 不一樣的狀況要讓他很清楚這個也沒有加強數位仲介法還是一樣他應該要處理的問題跟我們沒有關係對 沒有 現在沒有對 數位仲介法別的國家有 我們沒有引起很大一個反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10098.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10114.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那當然我們現在可以看到就是說這個部分的話就是而且比如說像我們現在想說有一些是錯假訊息可能也會違反比如說今天假設說我們在在野黨的立委在我們的臉書上寫說因為國家錯誤的這個能源政策會造成經濟上很大的一個損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10121.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10146.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那個是客觀評論那就是客觀評論那好請問主觀跟客觀的評論由誰認定包委員這不是主觀跟客觀問題這是評論本身的惡意的與否因為如果今天只是指政府的施政不利或者是說政府施政有錯誤這個都是屬於評論那剛剛我們提到就是說這種所謂的重大對於國家的安全造成威脅的言論是直接對 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10147.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10161.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
中華民國要採取攻擊的行為這才會構成這樣的一個要件今天我們質詢的主要的相關內容其實也是很多民眾疑慮的就是認為未來的一些比如說判定是不是有違反國家安全其實現在看起來的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10162.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10180.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
都會讓大家覺得心生畏懼會有寒蟬效應我覺得未來的言論委員會是新的這個不會有心生畏懼的問題但事實上就是這樣所以為什麼我們今天會有這樣的一個質詢就是希望說這些疑慮要讓大家安心要讓你的民眾不會覺得言論的自由我們會把它再解釋清楚也不會覺得說我今天因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10184.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10212.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
說了某些言論就有可能會被入法而且現在還不是到法院去現在是這個內政區它是行政處分所以不用去法院現在內政部是所謂的天下第一大部喔未來喔我們已經小很多了啦對我覺得現在內政部看起來哇這個職權又更大沒有沒有我們小很多了跟委員報告我們已經移出去給衛福部了必須有責任喔必須有責任讓民眾知道不要讓大家照顧我們一定會盡責把這件事情講清楚謝謝委員謝謝委員支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10215.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10218.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
謝謝 我們感謝徐議政委員我們請黃建斌召委質詢謝謝主席我想有請那個法務部跟訴發部法務部 訴發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10243.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10269.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
委員好今天是我們國家安全法的修正審查本席首先要強調維護國家安全絕對是朝野立委的共識但關鍵的是什麼關鍵是行政院跟民進黨立委現在提出的修法版本還有許多的法條有抵觸憲法規範的疑慮尤其是針對國人言論自由造成非常大的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10270.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10299.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
然而在今天排診之前完全沒有舉辦公聽會缺乏跟社會各界的溝通也沒有聆聽專家學者的聲音沒有辦法達成一些共識我想如果貿然的修法衝擊到的是人民網路的自由還有言論的自由因此國民黨團強烈主張必須要先安排公聽會匯集專家學者的意見我們凝聚社會的共識再來做後續的審查的動作本席在這邊也要肯定我們完美會召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10300.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10324.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
願意聽進不同的聲音宣告先安排公聽會之後我們再行審查那在這裡我也要告訴全體的國人為什麼這樣倉促的修法會有非常大的問題行政院版的這個第四條之一就明定規定就是說只要政府認定你未來在網路的PO文內容是有錯過虛假就可以對該內容限制瀏覽移除甚至刪除你的帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10325.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10345.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
而如果業者你不願意配合或者是不願意提供政府相關的資料就要處以將近百萬元的這個罰款那簡單的來說這是打著國安法的名義來做言論的這個審查網路的鑒的支持那未來只要政府對民眾的批評言論感到不滿就可以直接說你是假訊息然後要求網路平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10346.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10367.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
刪文甚至刪除你的帳號那重點來了要怎麼認定標準是什麼我們完全沒有看到你有明確的說明就是這個標準是不是民進黨政府就說了算了那剛剛其他委員提到像去年五月份的這個高雄的一個案例就是一個曾經女子在網路上問了我們監察院長的這個身體狀況然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10369.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10388.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
警方就火速辦到現場逮人那還好最後我們法官認定是他只是表達個人的意願因此裁定這個不法但問題是說如果今天政見版的這個國安法通過之後可能這位誠信女子的下場就不一樣了這是以後其他的民眾是不是只要在網路上發表他不利於政府或是執政黨內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10389.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10415.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
或是只要讓政府不開心政府不但可以強迫你言論下架刪除帳號還可以強迫網路業者把你的個資交出來讓相關單位拿著國安法上門抓人我想這是民眾擔心的事情因此我想這一條法如果萬一通過那全民查水表的時代可能就要來臨了那嚴重破壞人民的這個言論自由跟個人隱私我想沒有辦法想像在這個我們現在這個民主自由的時代才會有這麼威權的這個法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10417.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10445.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那我這邊要分享一句自理的一句很有名的經典名言就是說我不同意你的意見但我適時捍衛你說話的權利這個是要傳達什麼傳達我們言論自由精神蔡英文總統在任內也宣布每年的4月7號是言論自由日但是現在民進黨的做法是倒行逆施 大開民主來言論自由倒車本席這邊也要呼籲民進黨政府不要忘記過去我們共同努力的一個理念就是不要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10446.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10467.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
抗中保台的意識形態去毀民主先進犧牲自己換來的言論自由最後本席這邊要再次強調從去年5月審查國安法開始我們法務部就在意見中表達多次表達這個見請在左嘛是不是那意思是什麼就是認為這個條文有疑慮那當時法務部面對國民黨委員質詢的時候也認為說應該要召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10469.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10497.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
然後聽聽各界的專家選舉者的意見那直到現在我們法務部針對修法的意見的書面說明還是多次的表達見請在左我們就是希望能夠再遵循其他機關專業的意見意思是這個修法就連我們法務部都還是認為說有地方有些爭議因此我想對於這次的修法可能會衝擊到人民的言論自由內政委員會絕對要先召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10498.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10513.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們來聆聽各界的意見之後我們再來逐條審查我們不要接受這種意識形態的這個修法最後是破壞了人民的自由那我想絕對不能讓惡法造成台灣人民自由的倒退那以上也謝謝主席今天的採取 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝黃建斌召委我們請習慶英立委質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10538.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10543.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
謝謝主席本席請內政部今天來的是馬次長馬次長委員早安次長好我們今天談這個國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10555.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10573.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們都表達立場我們支持保護國家安全但是法律不能倉促不能倉促還有法律的明確性也很重要首先本席想請教是不是我們也同步請經濟部今天是誰我們經濟部今天次長沒有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10580.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10586.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
首先我們在行政院版本第八條有講到對大陸港澳敵對勢力大幅加重刑責但是對外國維持現行的行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10603.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10621.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那我們就要想了解一下這個差別刑度的設計它的核心依據是行為的危險性還是對象的威脅性報委 刑度設計可能要請教法務部的這個長官因為這不是內政部設計的我們徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10635.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10661.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
委員好那次長剛剛我講的您大概了解我們在這邊有講這個對象大陸港澳敵對勢力加重刑責但是對外國維持現行的刑度那這個刑度差別的設計你核心依據是行為的危險性還是對象的威脅性 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10662.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10683.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我想是行为的对我们国家的危险程度行为对国家的危险程度当然所以行为对国家的危险程度那你用对象干嘛你为什么不同的对象因为对象对我们国家的威胁是不一样的那很简单那如果这样的话这些所谓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10685.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10700.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
敵對勢力他就繞道讓他偽裝成外國勢力他刑徒不就刑徒沒有 我們還是會去查證如果他怎麼繞 怎麼繞最後查證的出來他還是來自於我們敵對勢力那當然是用敵對勢力所以你們查證所以你們有辦法查證就對了這是我們的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10713.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10742.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好 那我们再来请教下一个就是我今天也有特别讲的针对我们这个现代经济的间谍等于也很少直接用中国公司出面它透过第三公司它透过第三国公司境外控股白手套那如果技术是形式上泄露给外国公司但最终实质流向中国 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10743.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10771.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那这套刑度的设计你会你会不会就因为举证困难所以你就适用较轻的刑度如果说证明我只证明到第一层第二层那事实上就是外国的外国或他所控制的组织你怎么证明是经济部来认定还是减掉自行判断还是你依据什么怎么样的我们收集证据一定会借重于跨部会的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10774.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10799.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
甚至于有可能跨国际的合作都有可能那如果你没有查出来所以他就是判得比较轻嘛那是限制的问题那是事实上如果你没有证据是不是就判比较轻了对所以我们这个法律也有可能写得很重判得很轻啊我们是看我们证据走到哪里我们就会起诉相关的条文如果我是没有办法证明我不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10800.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10810.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
空口說白話隨便就按一個罪名就說這是第一項而不是第二項這點本席了解接著可能經濟部我們請經濟部這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10813.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10837.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我們針對交付傳遞這邊經濟部有反對將交付傳遞納入處罰那理由是跨國企業內部技術流動是常態那本席也接著想問如果一家台灣企業他把核心關鍵技術他傳遞給了他的中國子公司這樣算不算外流 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10839.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10866.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
包委員我想這部分就是回到他有給中國的子公司應該是說等一下 給中國 你大聲一點就是給中國的子公司因為假設這部分屬於落到交付的時候也會變落入可是那是他跨國企業他自己內部中國內部子公司我想這部分你應該是會按照個案判斷吧是好 那你如果個案判斷對企業來說它就存在有高度的不確定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10867.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10890.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那如果我是工程師我合法取得資料再合法傳遞給境外公司那以現在的法制有沒有哪一條可以管這部分我們最主要是假設今天單純的交付給他的子公司的時候我們怕是交付會這樣就會漏住因為前提應該還是要營業秘密的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10891.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10919.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
前提也要有什麼就是會有營業秘密因為它有營業秘密那假如單純的交付的時候營業秘密就會有這個問題所以我們這樣聽起來會不會是我們經濟部認為如果我包裝成集團的分工內部分工那技術流到中國也沒關係這怎麼辦這部分我想在整個經濟部的部分假設流到中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10920.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10946.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
中國的公司的部分子公司可能也會有這部分的一個問題所以我想我們經濟部是不是你們應該要提出很有關交付傳遞非常明確清楚的紅線還有企業可預期的一些合規的判準這個應該要再強化是 所以這也是我們今天覺得我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10948.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10968.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
還不要這種倉促審查很重要的一個立場所以我們希望經濟部就是說我們大家共同維護我們國家安全這沒有問題但是法律的很多的規定你不要造成廠商企業他們的一些恐慌就是有關交付子公司的這塊我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10969.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10998.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
好 那另外我也想繼續問就是說有沒有評估過這個寒蟬效應也就是說我們的這種國安法那會不會導致一些外商他把研商中心研發的這些中心撤離台灣這一塊我們也希望一定要特別的特別的重視因為台灣就是一個小島我們很重視知識經濟所以這一塊我們希望經濟部能夠特別特別注意 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10999.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11024.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好 謝謝委員那接著我問經濟部的報告也列舉了這個負入投資審查入資來台管制出口管制清單以及實體的名單那請問現在這些制度是有效還是失靈包委員我想這部分我們部裡面都有在做相關的一個審查的制度那制度有效的話為什麼還要大幅提高刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11026.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11054.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
你制度如果有效的話我們想知道我想這部分然後制度如果無效那是不是應該先檢討這些執行名單還有查核能量我想這部分我們就我在內部再問所以我們今天看起來就是說這個行政執行的責任轉嫁給司法用重刑承擔這樣的一種立法我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11055.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11083.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不这么符合比例原则所以我们希望这一块能够再加强所以最后我想没有完整的执行评估之前我们如果直接重型化风险太高了太高所以我们这一个案如果我们也希望召开公听会的时候经济部也多听一些产业各界的意见我们能够完整的检视这个制度的失灵点我们再来谈修法的强度好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11085.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11105.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
最後一題 我想說這個有關中間人條款我們對於這個利益良善 我也非常肯定但是我們看到整個行政院版的草案8-1它對於中間人行為太樣的具體定義好像沒有具體的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11106.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11131.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以高科技产业的并购专利布局往往会需要譬如说律师会计师专利师的介入如果一家的台湾厂商要卖给外资会计师他可能负责建价律师负责合约事后发现买家背后有敌对势力资金请问这些律师跟会计师会不会因为交付持有资料被当作中间人起诉这种情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11132.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11149.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
这个中间人的定义是从源头去看的如果这个中间人那个源头你现在用讲的现在我们在讲法条法条你没有明确的这个行为太阳具体定义在法条里面你现在当然回答我你可以你是活的你是人是活的对所以你们这边 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11156.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11179.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
只有刑罚你没有主观故意的严格限缩嘛也没有合规的指引那我们会担心这会不会导致专业服务机构为了避险他们全面退出了这个高科技产业的案件会不会这样这个他的行为他一样是在第七条跟第八条 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11180.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11199.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以我们希望是不是在执法或立法说明中能够明确界定中间人的范围也不要让专业人士踩在红线上来八条之一对于中间人就定义就已经写得很清楚了他就是受外国大陆地区港澳这些 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11200.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11218.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
境外敵對勢力所設立實質控制的各類的組織機構團體或他派遣之人之指示也就是這些會計師也好律師也好他一接觸到的就是這些人如果他進而又去從事的這些第七條第八條的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11220.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11239.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個尤其是律師他不可能說他不知道會計師看到這些帳他很難去脫免這個責任所以這個要件裡面有好幾個可是買家背後到底是不是有敵對勢力的資金他們可能不會知道我們不會用結果論就是說我們查到最後是怎樣的話就怎樣而是我們的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11240.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11268.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
有沒有辦法去證明說這個中間人是知情的這些都是靠證據去架構的如果架構的起來那當然就會用八條之一來論我想這個也許我們在我們還是希望法律整個的明確性尤其牽扯到刑法要等於我們的定義更應該明確那當然有一些細節也許我們在這個法條審查的時候我們再做充分的交換交換意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11272.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11297.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
謝謝我們感謝習新營委員執行我們請陳冠廷委員執行我們先請內政部跟保護部好了內政部 保護部 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11302.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11326.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
委員武安現在的國安的修法我們這次我提出四個修法但是可能因為時間的關係我就針對第一件事情就是第二條跟第七條的修正草案那在我的這個修正草案裡面我是有提到說一線型的第二條條文有關公務上因命令的部分是否能涵蓋所有命令的形態如果改成涉及國家安全或 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11327.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11346.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
公共利益因秘密之部分是否比較恰當那我們當初為什麼要改成這個樣子的原因其實是因為現在的威脅是非常多樣化那接觸到的密等或者是說在公務上接觸到的機密跟非公務上的相關的機密其實有些是更能夠傷害到國家利益的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11347.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11370.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以譬如說有些私人承包商其實美國也有相關的這些規定私人的承包商啊外包的這些設備商等等他不是在涉及公務的狀況之下取得跟國家相關或者是基礎建設相關重要的秘密那這樣子也會因此而影響那我們認為要把公務上改成這個國家利益或者是國家安全這樣的文字才能夠廣泛的包括各種威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11371.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11396.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
國家安全的樣態這個部分是不是先請內政部或法務部先把你們的意見可不可以簡單的來回覆一下跟委員報告其實公務的秘密應該來講它又更大所以你往下算下來有可能是有國防秘密 軍事秘密或者是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11399.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11414.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
對 就是說它的最廣的概念是公務秘密底下才往下有那些根據國家機密保護法或者是刑法相關的法律規定去分 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11417.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11438.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
軍事機密它是大概最嚴格的這些都是在公務機密底下可能跟委員認知上有點當然跟我認知上是有差異的原因是在於說其實我們當時制定公務機密就是要把它全部包括國防國防以外軍事全部都包括在裡面國防以外的軍事是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11439.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11460.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
不是 國防以外的公務機密國防以外我想因為公務機 公務秘密不限於國家安全應該是你這樣講就是說你的意思就是說包含涉及國家安全或公共利益上也是在公務秘密之下所以說你認為說在現行的這個公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11464.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11484.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
上因秘密之文書圖像影像等等其實已經把我們的法條裡面包含涉及國家安全或公共利益上面因秘密的這些相關的記錄都能夠跟全面的覆蓋你的意思是這樣子就是包括國家機密那國家機密當然包括國防秘密跟國防以外的公務的秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11484.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11508.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那國防秘密又分成軍事機密跟軍事機密以外的國防秘密這些都是在公務機密底下所以我們你認為說是可以完整的包含說私人的這些承包商私人承包商他如果接觸到這個工程這個工程的裡面的項目規範被核定為是機密那他也就會跑過來承包商縱使沒有這個公務人員的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11510.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11533.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
它接觸的這個東西只要被核定為國家機密或軍事機密一樣會在這一個條文的適用範圍之內所以你認為在現行的這個條文之下我們就不必特殊的在講說國家利益或公共利益上隱秘密之類只要有現行的條文就已經完整的涵蓋出了對 就會把它涵蓋在裡面了OK 好 那這樣子的話我們就不會漏 才不會漏掉這樣本來就不會有漏掉的狀況是不是對 這個是我們是認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11534.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11555.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那另外第七條如果說洩漏交付或傳達國家機密者現行的罰則是一年的有期徒刑如果是刺探或收集最低是六個月以上那這樣子的罰則是否足夠這個部分可不可以請法務部來簡單跟我們講一下這個法律的這個特組效果或者是內政部都可以 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11559.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11578.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
請問委員是講的是第第七條的條文他說如果說洩漏交付等等他會現在最低罰則是一年的有期徒刑那如果是刺探或收集最低是僅六個月以上這樣的罰則是我們這個是層級化的就是說像第二條的第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11579.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11607.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
第三款它這裡洩漏交付跟傳遞它是一個行為太樣那刺探跟收集又是另外一個太樣它是有那種行為的嚴重性的一個層級化的區分對我們知道行為的層級化有區分但是我們現在問的是說在法律上面的嚇阻效果你認為說就算是這樣有出兩個區分一個是六個月以上那一個是一年有期徒刑你們認為說交付這樣子的國家機密者用這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11607.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11629.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
量刑會不會稍嫌太輕你們部的看法是怎麼樣這一個如果涉及的是國家機密的話它交付的刑責會更重會更重 對可是我們看到的是最低刑責是一年有期徒刑那個是適用到國家機密保護法的問題另外一個法律也有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11631.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11643.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那這樣子加起來的話你說是另外一個法源的事你可以稍微解釋一下如果我講的時候這樣的嚇阻力是夠不夠夠因為如果它這個交付的東西是國家機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11644.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11665.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
兩個法條的競合的關係之下我們不會使用這個法律不會 不會使用這個我們會直接用縱法比較更重的那個法律對 會用縱法的國家經濟保護法那國家經濟保護法的縱法就不會用這個警疫簾因為他們競合之後我們是選用這個有些是用國家經濟保護法縱法國家經濟保護法那這個是一般的公務一般的公務涉及國家經濟但是它不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11667.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11693.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
一般公務的秘密但是它不是國家機密所以這個時候用這個條文就不會太重OK 好那這個就是一個成績法我現在這樣講因為之前有這個總統府部包含一些憲兵或者是這些警衛那把行程相關的資訊那這樣泄露出去當初它的適用的法條是指國家安全機密保護法還是用這種僅制公務只是公務上面的秘密這樣一年之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11694.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11707.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
它是用國防以外的秘密 它沒有核定它沒有核定嘛 對不對對啊 算是用國防以外的秘密那這樣子的話儘管它是嚴重的影響到我們元首的安全可是它變得還是比較輕的這個罰則這個要不要列為國家機密這個要自己去核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11712.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11728.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
對 我理解說這個是要自己去核定但是它核定之後就像上次我們講的它是用從比較輕的這種東西凸顯當然從那之後我們當然是可以從行政經關馬上去亡羊補但是我的意思是說未來類似這種樣態它散佈在各個不同的部門裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11729.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11755.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那有的時候行政機關它要疏漏的話那法律就變成是最後一道防線那如果我們還是用這樣子是用公務這樣子的罰則的話那只有一年有期徒刑但是它是後果是非常的嚴重的所以我的意思是說有沒有考量在這個狀況之下儘管它沒有被核定為比較機敏的部分但是實質上影響到國家的公共利益或者是國家重要的領導人物相關的安全的話最低罰則僅一年有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11756.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11775.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
或者是最低僅6個月以上這個罰則是否足夠能不能夠再檢討一下是 我們尊重大約的因為我剛才提到那幾個印象那是非常嚴重的但是因為它當初沒有被核定這個一方面也是讓行政部門自己要去檢討當然…不能疏忽當然是行政部門要檢討主管也要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11776.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11798.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
他們甚至他有他的政治責任都需要檢討包含整個總統府國安這個行動當然是要檢討但是我們現在講說在法律上面想聽聽看你們的意見是不是可以給我們我們認為適當的層級化是比較有彈性所有的法律都從嚴定下去以後萬一他洩漏的購物量明明不是非常嚴重可是因為最低刑被釘框死了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11799.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11816.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
各位在 那法官在判下去的時候大家就會覺得這個怎麼那麼重所以有時候你還是要層級化看它洩露的東西是什麼東西我們再決定適用法律因為如果全部都從最重量型的話那就沒有辦法區分更加惡劣的行為嘛那我理解啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11817.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11840.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們剛才提到的幾個例子麻煩還是放在心裡面想一下因為它的後果是很嚴重的如果僅用一年有期徒刑或者是六個月以上它的嚇阻力確實是我覺得是稍嫌不夠所以還是希望你們給我們一個書面上面跟我們講一下你們的看法文字給我們好不好好 謝謝再送到我們高雄市 好 謝謝文字相關的會議好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11846.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11865.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
謝謝 感謝陳冠廷委員 鄭天才委員主席 趙薇 我們請國內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11870.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11897.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
還有國防部 內政部 國安部作戰及計劃參謀次長室作戰儲備處的吳處長還有國家安全局 國務委員吳安今天審這個國家安全法的部分條文本席也有提出這個修正的條文我們看這個三地管制期 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11898.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11927.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
山地管制區是戒嚴時期的一個產物嚴重影響人民的生活所以本席在要求廢除這個山地管制區國家安全法這個歷史嚴格是從民國76年動員勘亂時期一直到現在現在老早已經不是動員勘亂時期了那國家安全法第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11928.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11957.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
76年1月公佈然後76年7月15號施行特別提到這個為維護三地治安治安啊不是國防治安就由警政署啊你內政部啊你要定在另外一個法律啊而不是在國家安全啊國家安全動員抗爛時期的東西對不對化學管制期三地管制期 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11960.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11984.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
因為這裡面提到 人民出入前向管制區應向該管機關申請席可 多麻煩 對不對 申請席可不合時宜的 所以應該修正已經超過30年以上了而且違反這個國家安全法第15條 列在這裡就會有刑責 就會有刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11989.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12015.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
原住民就因為這樣的國家安全法 山地管制區就受到刑責就受到刑責被判刑回到自己的地方被判刑對不對蘇貞昌前任院長前面開放山林前面開放山林呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12017.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12046.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
告別媽寶國家前面開放山林結果我們的部落卻要管制多不合理啊對不對行政院蘇貞昌前任院長前面開放山林開放遊客結果限制原住民族回到自己的部落原住民的部落的國人回到自己的部落是不需要經過這個管制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12047.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12067.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
你完全抽 會不會有親戚我要到我的親戚 我的戶籍不在那邊啊如果是當地的部落是不用當然啊 戶籍不在那邊的戶籍不在那邊的就要登記啊很多因為到都會去工作就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12070.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12093.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
對不對 為了孩子的就業那個念書報告委員 只要有原住民身份的族人都不受這個管制完全錯誤 那為什麼會被那個所以委員的這個個案可能提供給我們了解一下因為我們對法律的了解是只要具有原住民身份的國人都不受這個管制因為如果你是為了治安你就列在你的警察相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12095.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12112.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
法例不要放在這裡因為這個是動員困難時期這個我們會來考慮因為已經開放山林開放遊客了這理由不大一樣難道我們的部落不能有遊客嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12114.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12137.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們現在有兩個問題存在第一個就是說我們每一年颱風我要去了解多少人在山上我如果沒有這個管制區的話我們到時候第一時間我們要疏散誰我們都不知道那第二個就是說有很多山老鼠那山老鼠我們也是要藉由這樣的一個方式來管制那是另外一個法律治安你就放在治安那邊啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12138.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12165.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
目前放在這邊是因為他有他的剛剛委員提到的歷史的脈絡那未來如果說要放到其他的法例裡面我們會去檢討市長你不了解這是原住民部落的新生啊你先聽我講先聽我講山地管制區還有什麼管制除了人員的管制還有什麼管制土地的管制啊各方面的管制 縣建的管制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12167.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12195.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
喔 拜託好不好限制建築的管制報告委員 這個我們都了解但是也有很多的部落反映他們要維持這個你真的是不瞭解部落 趙偉聽一下我們是徵詢原住民部落的意見不會嗎我這裡也有一本厚厚徵詢我們部落族人的意見他們也是同意啊沒有 不同你只是徵詢部分的好這裡面就會涉及到國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12197.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12223.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你是為了三地治安啊 治安啊你就放在你的內政部的相關的法律裡面啊你是為了治安啊寫得很清楚啦然後就會涉及到管制區的現建 進建對不對 第二 最後一項管制區報偉 那個進建建是軍事的需要不是內政部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12224.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12248.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以你把他移到那邊就沒有那個問題 我們移走的話他還是在啊因為國防部還是要進憲建 那我們就沒有話可說如果涉及到國防的話如果涉及到國防我們當然支持啊我們沒有反對喔國防涉及到國防你要進建我們完全沒有反對但是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12250.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12270.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
因為你是列為三地管制區就會受到這個國家安全法第六條的第三項這是連帶的什麼連帶了 好不好這個我們會檢討 報告委員 這個我們檢討這個部分一定要支持我的修法 以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12272.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12292.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員我們家林德虎委員林德虎委員林德虎委員不在我們家賴世保委員賴世保委員賴世保委員不在我們家吳宗憲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12299.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12303.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長法務部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12309.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12336.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
委員好市長早安就今天的修正草案我想先提一個東西就我比較疑惑的點我看完全部的條文我發現有一個很奇怪的貓膩就是你們在第7條草案第7條立法理由有特別強調是為了維護國家安全還有憲政體制但是呢在新增的第4條鼓吹戰爭還有4-1條的網路錯假訊息卻完全沒有提到國家的憲政體制你們在草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12336.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12359.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那個理由裡面都沒有提到所以我一直在想說那這個法案到底是保護中華民國還是在保護特定的執政黨所以當然是保護國家安全但是很奇怪就是第七條跟第四條是的確不一樣來我先提一下第七條就是你們的第七條的草案裡面但是我想請教一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12361.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12382.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
賴總統說中華民國憲法是災難那如果依照你們第七條立法理由說是要維護憲政體制那元首公開貶損國家的根本大法那這會是不是有讓憲政體制遭受到威脅再來呢如果有組織在國內宣傳說中華民國已經不存在了憲法是災難那是不是足以符合第七條的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12383.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12410.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
足以危害社會安全的定義這是我一直看到這個條文我覺得奇怪的地方第二個我再點出一個奇怪也要麻煩你們去思考就是四支一條的錯假訊息那賴總統他改臉書到底算不算因為四支一條你們有提到網路上面公開散佈錯誤虛假訊息而且有危害國家安全或社會財政經濟安全之餘的總統政府可以下令下架罰款但是我們都知道總統之前公開說 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12413.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12440.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
2027完成武統台灣為目標結果呢後來大家恐慌之後他又悄悄的改掉他的臉書貼文而且他這個不是只有臉書是他公開的嘴巴也是這樣講然後事後總統府發言人還出來說這是媒體誤解但是我看來看去我跟總統的母語一樣我看來看去我覺得總統一開始的說法就是這樣啦那後來又都推給記者啦怪說記者的片面解讀啦所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12440.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12464.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我有幾個問題在這邊我先請教一下你看第一個到底總統說2027這個是不是錯假訊息總統一開始說會打後來又改口說不會那這個到底如果總統一開始講的是真的那為什麼後來要偷偷改為什麼還要改臉書的文章第二個如果總統講的是錯的那他身為三軍統帥卻帶頭散步 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12467.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12490.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
錯假訊息那這不是很糟糕嗎然後再來有沒有危害安定你們四支一條有講到說危害社會財政經濟安定總統說2027要打要完成武統台灣為目標那這個會造成外資不敢投資國內大家軍心會緊張嘛那這個是不是有違法那第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12491.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12513.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
他這個有沒有犯罪啊因為如果今天是一個在野黨的委員說明年會打仗哦2027會打仗哦那你們一定會說他是配合中共認知作戰嘛那在你們新法架構之下總統他算不算未遂或是過失你們敢不敢辦總統就是他現在有刑事豁免權嘛那等他卸任之後你們敢不敢辦總統來 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12516.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12544.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
請說明一下先回答最後一個問題因為目前草案裡面規範的都是行政處罰這個不會有這個問題OK沒問題那你們敢不敢罰嗎這個先問題就可以回答那接下來的剛才委員所提到的這個都是四條一的這不是保護部的主責的條文沒有就請教你你們是行政院裡面最高法律的指導機關我想是不是由他們來回答比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12546.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12553.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那沒關係 因為我是說法律條文因為我們法律上的認知個人意見的表達當然總統說了什麼東西我最近很忙 也沒時間繼續看那我的意思說在個人的意見的表達沒有客觀的一個具體的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12565.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12590.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這個是絕對是憲法保障的言論自由這個不能去規範的憲法保障言論自由現在變成要看顏色總統都可以講到2027會有完成武統台灣為目標這個意思武統他不是和平統一武統那就是戰爭嘛那我如果說明年會有戰爭這會造成軍心動盪外資撤資然後大家不敢來投資其實這對 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12592.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12612.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
對經濟是有影響如果這句話不是賴總統說而是我說我跟你講我現在可能已經被叫去問話等等的所以沒有啦 我可能言論免責如果是一個小老百姓說那可能就很嚴重了所以我覺得今天我們國家的一些法律設計上面其實充斥了很多不公平的地方甚至他辦誰變成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12614.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12623.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這樣是很不應該啦這跟民進黨長期追求的言論自由其實有很大的不一樣那我想就提一個東西啦我跟櫃部有調一些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12625.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12651.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
從112年到114年3月底你們那個檢查機關偵辦反滲透法我們過去啊2024年之前抓了一大堆里長婆婆媽媽抓了一堆人結果呢我們將近八成不起訴那已經起訴的目前已經有三件無罪定驗了也就是說過往我們在反滲透法等等這些案子總是搞一些不確定的法律概念在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12652.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12668.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
就不確定法律概念在裡面什麼人民會害怕我到底有沒有違法那執政者更可以自己自我解釋法律要怎麼辦所以啊這麼高八成不起訴起訴之後還一堆無罪的情況下我們這一次的草案裡面有一大堆什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12669.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12690.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
公開鼓吹戰爭 消滅我國主權等等的這些什麼叫做鼓吹 什麼叫做足以危害這些東西都是不確定的法律概念那以後是不是就人民就任由執政者自行認定呢法律可以這樣不確定法律概念放在裡面嗎這是我對於這個草案的我認為有非常嚴重的地方啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12691.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12714.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那更不可以就我們不管將來任何政黨執政都不應該用法律來濫訴所以2024年之前超過將近八成的不起訴以及多大量的無罪這個就表示被濫用了反滲透法等等這些國安相關法律所以國家安全不能拿來作為政治攻擊的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12715.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12737.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我希望草案的任何一個法律定義必須明確這個是法治國的最基本原則以及是人民權益的最基本保障不可以搞了一堆什麼叫做鼓吹什麼叫做消滅我國主權我喊台灣國 我是台灣國的立委這有沒有消滅中華民國主權呢對不對 這也是一個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12739.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12757.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
然後那個八炯閩南人在唱歌裡面說叫解放軍趕快打過來那這有沒有鼓吹戰爭這都變不明確的法律概念我覺得不能這樣法律我痛恨背叛國家的人要嚴辦沒錯但是法律必須要 必須要明確我只要求這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12759.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12775.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
嚴懲叛國者我百分之百支持強化國防百分之百支持但是不要有不明確法律概念這個會變成是執政者在修理人民的一個手段好謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳宗憲委員質詢我們現在已經12點多中午要休息繼續開會我們請邱志偉委員質詢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12787.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12816.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
謝謝我們主席 是不是先請法務部是 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12817.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12835.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
徐政次 司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳司法院刑事廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12845.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12869.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
或是司法院刑事廳的黃法官為什麼共諜他在這個案子全國矚目但是最後的結果是輕判是法律規定不明確還是相關的問題所造成的我想聽一下徐政策的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12870.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12884.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我想檢察官就具體個案還是會詳實的來收證跟論述啦那也要具體求刑來監督法院的判決那如果說有兩行顯然是偏輕的我們都會依法定的程序來處理那 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12886.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12913.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
有時候我們也發現說院檢是必須辦案人員要有交流跟教育訓練那這一個部分司法院應該也都有積極的在做訓練跟交流我想讓大家能夠理解它的危害性這個保護部跟這個司法院對於說國安案件的這些相關的審理的風險認知有一定的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12914.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12926.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
您的意見我了解 那個刑事廳 刑事廳黃法官您的意見為什麼都是跟起訴跟最後判刑的結果有那麼大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12927.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12955.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
是 報告委員那我現在就先跟委員報告一下關於這個關於判刑的部分那我這邊手邊的資料上面顯示那就我們如果就光就最高法院這邊來看的話就違反國安法的第七條跟第八條部分目前我們判處超過七年以上有期徒刑不是沒有是有的那有四件然後超過十年的還有兩件所以其實也不是說完全沒有重刑是有那當然我們就是回歸個案來看比例上是因為輕判比較多嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12956.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12966.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
對比例上的話當然是輕判是比較多那我們就是尊重個案法官的決定因為還是要從個案來看那就是這邊是目前手上的數據跟委員來報告這樣子 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12969.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12996.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
不好意思那再跟委員補充一下那關於那個研習的部分因為方才那個法部這邊有提到那因為我們目前就是已經有設置那個國安軍事那個專庭那這個部分我們有要求法官這個就專業的部分一定要每年研習12個小時以上那目前我們在法官學院這邊都有安排相關的課程在就法官這邊的知識做一個精進這樣子那在法律的這個有沒有需要補強的部分法律的內容有沒有需要補強的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12997.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13024.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
法律部分的話當然就是國安法這部分的那個知識部分會要求那另外還有就是比較就是個別譬如說像說有關於營業秘密啦或是說有關一些比較更技術上的一個層面的這部分的知識的部分的話我們在搭配課程設計上都會安排這邊軍事國安法官讓他們針對不同領域的部分讓他們了解可能什麼叫核心技術或是什麼叫做營業秘密這部分那他們這樣協助他們這樣在個案上處理會比較清楚認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13025.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13047.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那比較不會有一個不清楚的判斷這樣子就是說我的這個提案的部分是國安法第二條現行條文是緊究發起知識主持操縱指揮或發展組織有明文禁止那沒有將這個參與的行為納入規範如果修法把這個參與的樣財把它這個納入規範是這個不裡面的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13052.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13078.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
對 我們現在就是在草案裡面規劃就是在第二條的第二款加入參與前項組織而且要足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定我們把參與的這個部分也要規範到所以法務部也贊成是那另外這個共諜法案組織這個犯罪的形態當中現行的法律對未遂跟預備的認定如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13080.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13107.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我們現在目前只處罰未遂預備的話是沒有處罰如果是參與算不算預備參與的話不處罰未遂那這樣子你現在只對未遂有處罰那預備有沒有更明確的沒有預備在法條原來的法條就沒有了那第7條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13108.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13133.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
第七條部分以具體危害結果作為犯罪成立的要件我也提案的修法第七條那執法機關他往往在做判決的時候已經要待國家安全已經有失職損害才能介入處理所以這個部分對國家安全的管理這個預防這個邏輯好像不太通 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13138.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13150.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我想這個法律的設計當然是保護國家安全那是也會某程度也會限制人民的一些權利在平衡點我們要抓到我應該是從嚴規範嘛這個要確保人權的情況之下你要從嚴規範嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13157.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13183.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這個已經算是我們對這個國家安全我們有特別的一個規範了已經算是特別的規範了如果國家安全實質損害啊那是很嚴重的事情你才能介入對不對對他這個組織如果足以影響到國家安全危害到國家安全或國家安全跟社會安定的話就是已經構成犯罪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13184.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13200.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我還有一個問題要請教我在六年十四年一向是遵守時間時間到就要停止諮詢這是對行政部門一個基本的尊重好 謝謝感謝邱智偉委員接受我們現在陳培宇好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13211.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13237.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
陳培宇委員不在 我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部的政次以及內政部的政次法務部內政部委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13238.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13261.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
市長好喔2025年5月立法院終於三讀通過不法關說罪以前在台灣有權有勢的政治人物關說司法是沒有罪的荒謬至極也正是因為這個樣子邱泰山當初去關說司法幫富商 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13263.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13282.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
找桃園高檢署的檢察長去大車輪日本料理官說完了以後回去施壓基層的檢察官才沒有辦法被追究法律責任但是這個時代已經結束了因為今年五月立法院三讀通過了不法官說罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13283.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13300.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
利用權勢利用位置去關說檢察官跟法官的通通會落入不法官說罪刑罰要處罰的範圍這裡的法官來請教一下法務部的次長包括大法官包括大法官嘛媒體報導憲法法庭的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13309.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13323.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
府院找了跟蔡中正有深交的黨政高層跟他溝通踢到了鐵板這件事情法務委有沒有掌握委員已經告發那這個別檢已經分案正辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13324.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13344.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
真的有在辦嗎還是放著給他睡包委員這個具體個案我們部裡面是不介入沒有啦你們看你們部裡面針對具體個案到底介入不介入啊或者是講不講那要看啊看是什麼案啊牽涉到什麼顏色的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13345.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13368.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
你們檢察司啊之前就發布過新聞稿啊針對具體個案指手畫腳啊啊你說你具體個案不介入沒有關係我尊重你我質詢的重點是什麼我質詢的重點就大家等著看看台北地檢署要睡到什麼時候看台北地檢署要睡到什麼時候但很有趣的事情啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13369.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13391.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
總統府的發言人出來否認說這個媒體根本沒有查證亂寫 顯然是假新聞亂寫發布假訊息假新聞竟然敢汙止我們的府院找黨政高層去關說大法官這種假訊息依照社會資訊維護法要不要處罰來請教一下內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13395.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13425.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
報告委員 這個部分是不是假訊息要認定啊對啊 你們有打算要認定嗎因為只有一個答案嘛如果有 那法務部就要動起來嘛如果總統府發言人講的是對的那顯然這個媒體報導是假的訊息嘛媒體報導我們製作是不是假訊息我們不予評論啦因為這媒體的報告嘛沒有 先停一下齁社會資訊維護法針對假訊息要不要處罰目前是以這個散佈假訊息來講是有處分對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13426.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13454.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
但是媒體的報導我們尊重媒體報導所以你的意思是說社會資訊維護法對於媒體而言是絕緣就對了如果媒體散播假訊息的話社會資訊維護法是不罰的您的高見是這樣嗎媒體是第四權我們尊重媒體的自主所以社會資訊維護法如果媒體散播假訊息是不罰的您的意思是這樣嗎我們如果罰媒體的話變成是社會上輿論大罰這個是不可行沒有啦我們一件事情一件事情來啦台灣是法治國家啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13455.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13477.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
法律怎麼解釋這件事情啊 不是你們就說了算為什麼大家對行政機關 給他們這麼高的權限 大家會有疑慮嘛就憑著這個肯定的在這解釋嘛所以我再問一次嘛 按照內政部的立場社會資訊維護法 是不是不會處罰媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13478.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13498.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們目前對媒體的報導我們尊重我們不予處理所以社會資訊維護法是不是把媒體排除在規範的範圍之外是還是不是 包含不是這樣子的媒體如果 聽你講就是這個樣子啊媒體如果有涉及到不法還是會有當事人去告發現在問題就來了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13499.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13517.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
告發是刑事犯罪嘛剛剛法務部次長講得很清楚嘛如果是行政法就不關法務部的事嘛那我現在的問題來啦社會秩序維護法的主管機關是誰內政部啊是內政部所以我請教你嘛我請教你內政部媒體散播假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13519.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13530.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
你要不要用社會秩序維護法處理 你說媒體是第四權不會用社會秩序維護法處理所以我才進一步請教一下對 內政部的法律高見社會秩序維護法對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13535.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13553.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
拜託 社會資訊維護法你不是說主管機關室內政部嗎怎麼又扯到NCC去了你不能這樣子解讀這個法律因為社會資訊維護法對媒體本身我們是尊重是你不能夠要我們去處理媒體的言論對 所以嘛我才問你最後的結論嘛社會資訊維護法對媒體來講是不是決定你嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13559.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13575.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
不是絕緣體 而是說我們尊重媒體的第四權 自主權所以如果媒體散播假訊息的時候被這部也不會用社會資訊媒體是不是散播假訊息我們沒辦法認定因為他有他的信息來源總統府發言人都出來啦這假訊息耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13578.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13606.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
總統府發言人講的耶總統府發言人沒有講假訊息三個字他沒有講這三個字他說沒有查證啊沒有查證不一定是假訊息喔 說得非常的好 來法務部的次長請上來內政部的次長講得很清楚囉沒有查證並不代表是假訊息喔好好辦啦 認真辦啦我等著北檢看什麼時候要辦第二個 再往下做 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13608.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13634.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
洩漏偵查中因秘密的文書是不是違法是不是如果有符合刑法132條洩漏國防以外之秘密的話會構成刑責會嘛好來現在我就看不懂了我們國家要打詐結果檢察官把偵查中因秘密的事項洩漏給他男朋友詐團的律師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13636.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13659.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
然後呢 第一個時間桃園地檢署說沒有影響到偵查 因為偵查已經終結我那個時候直覺桃園地檢署才匆匆的要分案偵辦結果自己簽結檢評會的協同意見看不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13660.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13689.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
然後現在懲戒法院也看不下去懲戒法院直接在判決理由就直接寫了洩露偵查中陰秘密的事項現在法務部是要辦還是不要辦還是尊重桃園地檢署牽結的結果我上次問法務部部長他的答案讓我非常的驚訝尊重桃園地檢署牽結的結果現在是檢察官洩密給詐團然後官官相護 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13690.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13719.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
就這樣牽結法務部也沒有態度也沒有立場是這樣嗎法務委員我們已經行文給桃園地檢署請他們依法裁處是要自己判斷是不是要偵辦你們已經行文給桃園地檢署了嗎好沒關係我們接著看桃園地檢署第二個上一次法務部部長跟我說這樣的檢察官他認為已經不適任了針對這個懲戒法院最後只罰錢了事 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13721.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13740.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這樣的判決法務部接下來有什麼相應的作為那這個部分的話對於那個懲戒法案的判決結果我們會依法上訴會依法上訴嘛 好好上訴喔希望上訴了以後有不同的結果要不然我們打詐打得這麼辛苦檢察官洩密給詐團 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13743.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13758.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
結果自己人桃園地檢署牽結最後出來只罰縫還讓他繼續當檢察官我是看不下去啦我是看不下去啦希望這件事情法務部站穩立場站穩立場嚴肅的追究法律責任謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃國昌委員執行我們現在郭益勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13769.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13782.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
郭益勤委員郭益勤委員不在我們家羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在我們家盧憲一委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13784.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13803.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
盧憲宜委員盧憲宜委員不在我們家楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在我們家沈伯陽委員沈伯陽委員沈伯陽委員不在我們家謝一鳳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13805.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13818.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在我們家鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在我們家牛西頂委員謝主席 法務部有請加法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13835.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13864.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
委員好這個辛苦了這個如同我們剛剛在程序發言裡面有提到就是說最早的時候各個民進黨委員提出國安法的各式各樣的修正條文跟版本的時候當初我們看到政府的意見都是希望嚴謹以對嘛所以見請在佐嘛尤其是針對法律明確性的部分做出了若干的一些指教嘛那當初大家就講那我們等一下願版但我看起來願版好像也沒有脫離這樣子的一個框架現在行政院所提出的國安法修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13865.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13884.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
名義上按照你們立法說明說是要因應認知作戰保護國家安全但以這樣子的這個實際上的內容卻恐怕會強害台灣人民的言論自由網路表意自由以及參與公共事務的一些權利的一些限制那 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13885.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13906.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
唯一的差別大概就是行政機關有強調就是說我們的條文中跟當初委員的提案的差別是有加上足以危害國家安全或者是社會安定為這樣子的一個要件所以就不會侵害到人民的權利不過這本席要講就正因為國安法是以刑罰或者是重大行政處分去介入而且去限制一部分人民的基本權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13907.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13936.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以越是這樣子的時候就越應該謹慎而為之啦針對法律概念的界定是否具體明確法律明確性為原則的確保我想這是核心中的核心也是之所以今天非常多的在野黨的立法委員都講說要掀開公聽會非常重要的一個原因法律的外觀跟號召跟訴求是保護國安但如果內部的條文不夠清楚甚至影響了民主自由那我們就講是不是國安國安多少罪惡假辱之民一行之 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13936.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13964.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我覺得這件事我們還是要把它講得非常非常的清楚這個剛剛法務部有講說我們剛剛有談到嘛主以生危害於國家安全或社會安定這個條件嘛你才能進行所謂的一些裁罰所以你認為這樣不會侵害到人民的自由那我想請問這樣子的一個一段話有符合法律明確性原則嗎我想這一種刺青犯在我們刑罰的設計裡面是很多地方都有的那這個部分就是一個客觀的事實他就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13965.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13974.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
他的行為 他加入了這個組織這個組織本身發展的他就是要對於有足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13975 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14003.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
客觀上要讓大家都看得出來他的行為他一樣就是能夠就已經可以足以影響到國家安全關鍵是誰來認定 逐生國家安全或社會安定這件事嘛這檢察官會認定 最後還是由法官來判決那就很麻煩了嘛 對不對因為這個東西是一個它畢竟不是一個非常明確 比如說超速其實超速 超過多少公里或者酒駕 酒測等等它有一個非常明確的標準那那個時候你要嚴刑峻法殺人者 我們都主張要死刑嚴刑峻法 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14004.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14023.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個明確的時候大家都比較不會有意見比較不會有爭議但問題就是因為是國安 國安是一個非常敏感的政治題目比如說我舉幾個例子比如說我們今天有些委員對國安法有比較多的疑慮甚至是持反對的意見也許最後國安法沒有辦法順利通過那這樣是不是某一種層面的逐升危害國家安全或社會安定呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14024.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14042.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
對不對如果今天國安法通過之後有些人民因為比如說你們四條一的限制很不滿意所以組織了群眾上了街頭來抗議表示這強害了言論自由那請問這又算不算是一種生危害於國家安全或社會安定呢這個一定是個案認定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14043.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14064.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
很多法律的設計不確定的法律概念絕對會存在不可能所有的犯罪都量化所有的都量化那是不可能的我理解那不確定的法律概念就是要我之所以要去提這幾件事情就是因為剛剛我講了幾個比如國安法的贊成或反對有沒有通過人民會不會因為言論自由上街走這些都是政治議題對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14065.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14082.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
對不對 就是政治議題嘛所以這樣的政治議題就應該更加謹慎處理我理解法務部的立場就是沒有每一個法條都一定可以百分之百的達成百分之百的明確但是就是因為這個東西跟政治跟言論自由跟有關所以我要求這個地方應該更加明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14082.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14105.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我想我們已經很努力我們邀請了我們司法院代表還有我們各部會我們其實對於這些要件我們已經做了非常嚴謹的一個你剛剛回答我的時候你講的是個案認定大家就捏一把冷汗對不對沒關係因為我們今天只是巡查而已剛才是 剛才委員有提到說號召一群人上街抗議可能會有抗議嘛或者是反對這樣子的法律搜查因為那個抗議的過程中有 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14106.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14134.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
做了哪些的行為這個都要個案去認定這個因為有個案認定的空間是不是他就有很多權勢他就可能會造成更多的混亂這是本席在詢問的時候要先做提醒的我還有很多問題行政院版的法案總說明裡面講尤其是四條跟四條一這可能是很多這個一般的人民會有關心的事情就說這因為近年來我們受到很多認知作戰的威脅請問認知作戰它是一個法律的概念還是一個政治的概念包委員這個部分是不是請內政部來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14135.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14146.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
好吧 內政部來加內政部委員午安認知作戰是法律概念還是政治概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14147.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14169.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
包委員認知作戰目前是政治概念是政治概念嘛對不對那你用一個政治概念然後用一個法律的手段去那是因為它是法案總說明當然法案總說明你寫進去這是我講的嘛就這部法案之所以大家會有這麼多的疑慮希望可以謹慎處理的原因就在這個地方因為它就很多東西它是政治行為嘛它也是一個學術名詞啦因為它可以從不同的方向來討論那麼誰來定義認知作戰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14171.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14199.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
他是一個政治概念對吧那誰來定義這個因為他是在法條的說明裡面所以我們在法條的運用上面不會去用這個這個概念去進行這就是我講的為什麼國安很多人都講說你如果反對國安法的修正你就是跟中共同路你就是不愛台灣這個我們沒有說這個沒有說我知道你沒有講啦我說很多人外界的這個我們也不同意對不對但我們就希望就法論法尤其是這個法案跟人民的基本權利跟政治參與都很相關的時候他就會有一大堆政治的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14200.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14228.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
政治的詞彙政治的定義他需要有行政機關去做界定這就是問題行政機關做界定行政機關也是政治的一部分他就會衍生更多的混亂我今天只是舉例要跟你說明這件事情而已我再多問幾個問題比如說今天網路的言論你講四字一條因為講以國安為名我們必須確保這些東西不會危害國家安全今天我們怎麼能夠確定今天我們對政府也許對國防政策大家有不同的批評指教對於兩岸的路線有不同的看法跟說明甚至也許 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14229.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14249.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
有防疫那時候大家不是也吵成一團嗎難免會有不同的意見那會不會今天這個東西通過之後被認定啊這些都是有利於境外敵對勢力因為最近地緣的風險報告委員這個不會對不對這個不會你標準在我會或不會你剛剛講有個個案認定的過程標準就是鼓吹對台灣發動戰爭這件事情的標準是很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14250.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14273.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我現在講如果你整部國安法都只有談這件事情那恐怕還好但是我們看法條很多的敘述就不只是這些事了嘛對不對就是說有利於境外敵對勢力等等的他都算在裡面所以我才反覆的要強調法律明確性是很重要的尤其是這個東西高度政治敏感構成要件如果構成要件不能太政治化太政治化的時候這法案後面的爭議他就會沒完沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14274.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14302.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
對不對我在時間到了我們今天不要講太久這個第四條之一之所以很大的爭議也是因為可以停止解析嘛前一陣子的小紅書之亂對不對那接下來講有虛假訊息我們就來做停止解析好問題來啦虛假訊息怎麼定義比如說賴總統去年11月底的聲明講2027年中共完成武統台灣為目標引起軒然大波總統府馬上出來開記者會講不是這個意思是完成武統的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14303.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14318.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
哇 那請問賴總統的說法是虛假訊息還是不是虛假訊息報委員 2027這件事情在國際上有非常多的討論那也不是說當時賴總統提出來的時候他是第一個所以這個在過去的討論裡面他曾經有不同的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14320.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14336.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
對 至少你講到關鍵了很多事情是一個事件有很多不同的見解但是很多不同的見解我們現在如果授權給行政機關來片面的認定哪些東西是虛假訊息我就可以進行處分的時候他是不是就很容易踩過言論自由那條線 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14338.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14354.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
我們現在就是說言論自由這件事情我們一定會堅守但是問題是我們現在要預防的是利用言論自由來攻擊我們的民主自由體制這是我們立法的一個原由我們今天不是拒絕去審查我們是希望整個審查的過程它必須非常的嚴謹因為這些的規範都會影響人民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14357.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14372.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
可能會影響未來的言論質疑等等好不好一定要謹慎啦今天這個尤其是這段時間的政治氛圍嘛大家朝野的關係是比較緊張的又涉及比較抽象的概念比較沉重的法律效果還有很多個案認定的空間所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14373.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14398.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我認為在法律明確性原則還是有很大的疑慮的在這樣的情況下如果貿然的通過它不見得能夠有助於國家安全反而有可能在國內造成混亂這是本席一定要提出來的概念我們需要謹慎再謹慎我也要用最後的時間我們要謝謝今天網美會召委願意從善如流大家達成共識先開公聽會再進入條文的審查希望大家可以用這麼嚴謹的標準好好的來完善相關的法律機制可以嗎好 謝謝委員主教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14403.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14431.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
謝謝我們感謝紐西庭委員我們家蘇津全委員蘇津全委員不在我們家林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在我們家羅志強委員羅志強委員不在我們家張雅玲張雅玲張雅玲委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14432.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14458.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我們家翁小玲委員 翁小玲 翁小玲委員不在我們家林建祺 林建祺 林建祺委員不在我們家鄭正全 鄭正全 鄭正全委員不在我們家吳祺銘 吳祺銘 吳祺銘不在我們家高金素美委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14467.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14486.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
謝謝辛苦了美匯召委今天你的從善如流然後聽到在野黨的聲音全體人民的聲音讓這部法可以來公開公正的在討論是非常辛苦的好謝謝先我們請內政部馬次長法務部徐政次還有陸委會梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14487.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14508.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我是最後一個在這邊質詢的前面幾位的答詢我都聽到了我必須要強調一下我們大家都非常的支持國家安全但是國家安全不能夠越過一個界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14510.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14519.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我们看一下院版今天的国家安全法修正总共有三个重点第一个是要增订鼓吹战争言论的行政裁罚 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14520.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14540.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
第二個是要求平台要下架政府不喜歡的內容第三個是要徵定參與特定組織的罪責換句話說從你們認定開始一直到下架跟罰則幾乎全部都交給行政機關一手決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14542.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14560.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我剛剛開宗明義就說了我支持維護國安 守護國家的安全但是我們越是講國安越不能夠用模糊的條文來偷渡擴權但是我們今天看到政院版的文字你們真的是太寬 標準太鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14563.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14573.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
你們塞了一堆看起來好像很嚴肅其實是說不清楚的概念你們刻意來創造刺激濫權的空間你們現在修正了國安法的第二條簡單來講就是要處理內亂的問題我們來看看刑法上面對於內亂罪是怎麼處理的看一下刑法第100條目前的規範是 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14592.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14611.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
意圖破壞國體 竊據國土或以非法的方法變更國憲顛覆政府而以強暴或脅迫著手實行者處7年以上的有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14612.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14627.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
同樣是七年以上的重罪 刑法第100條非常明確的要求是必須怎麼樣 有意圖加上強暴或脅迫 加上實行行為 怎麼樣才會成立內亂罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14631.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14657.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
原因非常的簡單是什麼呢刑罰越重要見就越要清楚不能夠只憑意圖或者是口號就讓人民入罪避免回到思想入罪的老路我相信梁文傑民進黨你們最清楚我們再來看一下國安法第二條第一款的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14658.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14680.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
發起、資助、主持、操縱、指揮或發展組織足以生 足以生法律用語 簡單講就是足以產生危害於國家安全或社會安定大家就覺得很奇怪 足以生是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14681.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14700.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
好這樣子簡單看起來你們修正的條文只要是意圖加上足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定的危險狀況就可以處以7年以上的重刑換一句話說刑度拉到 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14701.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14714.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
7年以上門檻卻往更模糊的方向走讓執法的機關還有減掉起訴的裁量空間大幅的擴張而這樣寬鬆跟模糊最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14718.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14743.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
只剩下執法機關一句我認為你有危害人民就會被先約談然後就被貼標籤然後就會引起寒蟬效應的噤聲所以為什麼我剛剛說人民的言論自由言論自由很重要集會結社很重要所以我要再問一下三位 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14745.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14767.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
基本是7年以上為什麼刑法100條要強暴或脅迫裁罰而國安法是可以用更寬更模糊的標準足以生危險就判處重刑這不是明確化 而是擴權化請三位哪一位回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14770.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14787.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
報告委員 我針對第三個問題就是我們草案修改第七條跟第二條的相關的規定那我想內亂罪它的構成要件跟我們這裡國安法的構成要件本來就不一樣為什麼不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14788.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14804.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
同樣是刑法七年為什麼不一樣這有一點點是要讓人民噤聲讓人民害怕然後呢我先用國安法來定你定案完了之後送到法院去然後最後的財政是法院在決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14805.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14825.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
時空背景不一樣當時的行為太陽跟現在行為太陽是有不一樣的謝謝次長您的回答時間的關係我們來看一下出自於福爾泰的朋友們有提到我不同意你的觀點但是我誓死捍衛你說話的權利當年民進黨您可能不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14833.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14834.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
民進黨曾經為了廢除刑法100條走上街頭現在的民進黨的朋友們你們也許當年沒有參與這個自由的活動但是你們的父母親恐怕有參與民進黨的朋友最清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14853.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14868.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
當年民進黨的朋友你們那麼樣的有氣魄帶著人民上街然後促成刑法第100條的明確化退縮化因為當初民進黨先輩知道避免思想入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14869.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14881.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
避免國家用刑法管人民的嘴那才是民主社會該有的底線但是今天我們看到民進黨你們修的國安法你們是反其道而行 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14886.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14894.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
你們想用國家安全法把當年自己那個唾棄的邏輯重新包裝然後讓模糊的要件寬鬆的入門入罪門檻配上沉重的刑度回到什麼先恐嚇先噤聲再處置的治理方式我認為這不是保護國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14911.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14938.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我認為這是用國安之名把人民的言論或者是角色推回到戒嚴的陰影我更認為這是實質的變相戒嚴也就是行政獨裁的前奏我更講得清楚就是民進黨的墮落你們不用再發言了因為你們在這邊說 說得都非常的心虛 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14945.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14949.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
謝謝 感謝高金素美委員質詢經濟發言的委員除了沒在庭以外 剩下的都已經發言完畢 質詢結束委員吳啟明 聽學中所提出的素面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14975.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14984.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
書面執行及被搭訪的保安家相關單位在一週以書面答覆並複製本會討論屬行所內的議案令定期繼續審查本頁的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14999.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15001.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
會議到現在結束現在散會感謝大家謝謝 |