| IVOD_ID |
17162 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17162 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-31 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-31T08:32:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-31T12:50:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:17:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc1053bf0f00000d75e6b0ecf7cc8594c6fd00d8c029a2fce530b5f761e934fa1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-31T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位、司法院副秘書長、內政部警政署、行政院國土安全辦公室就「無差別攻擊犯罪事件之防治與量刑檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
(一)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「政務人員法草案」案。
(二)委員羅智強等19人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案。
【第（二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:32 - 12:50:00 |
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1801.247 |
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報告委員會初期委員10人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好那麼在場的委員大家早安那我們現在就開會首先先進行報告事項先請宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1817.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1841.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第十五次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十二月十八日星期四上午九十一分至下午一時十二分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳培育委員等十三人列席委員葉元之委員等七人列席官員行政院秘書長張敦涵等人主席翁昭吉委員小林 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1842.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1859.858 |
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報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位司法院副秘書長 經濟部 環境部國家發展委員會 臺灣電力股份有限公司就綠能弊案速貪成效 綠能發展之法制策進與防弊進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1861.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1886.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
三 邀請總統府秘書長 行政院秘書長 司法院法務部就立法院三讀通過之法律 經行政院依中華民國憲法增修條文第三條第二項 以請立法院附議經全體委員 經全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案 行政院院長不依法附屬總統不依法公佈施行對我國憲政民主及法治之強害及相關法律責任之追究進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1888.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1889.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問各位 上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1911.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1935.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 如果沒有的話那麼我們議事錄就確定那接下來我先介紹到場的委員以及應邀列席的人員首先先介紹黃國昌委員還有羅志強委員那麼接著我介紹應邀列席的官員今天有考試院的劉建興秘書長權敘部的施能傑部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1936.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1962.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
法務部的正部長鄭明天正部長還有行政院人事行政總處的蘇仁市長謝謝那其餘未及介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單不再逐一的介紹並且列入公報記錄那麼本次的議程分別排定的是專題報告無差別攻擊犯罪事件的防治與良心檢討那以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1962.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1987.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
兩部法案 政務人員法草案等等兩部法案那麼會議進行的方式我們就採一併的報告然後綜合的詢答好 那麼現在我們就先進行提案說明及報告那首先進行提案的說明發言時間是三分鐘那這次提案的有翁曉琳委員還有羅志強委員分別進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1988.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2013.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那麼我們是先請羅志強委員先請提案說明 謝謝主席 然後我們各位委員以及列席的官員民進黨從發起大罷免開始大家可以去看看有多少的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2014.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2030.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
是為了配合大罷免利用行政資源造謠 洗地 下鄉宣講像是續產會的董事長蘇志芬頻繁的回到雲林去支持大罷免勞動部部長洪森漢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2032.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2049.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
發文推動大罷免時間是11點44分的上班時間然後在11點49分被發布在勞動部的媒體群組引發社會爭議然後他說那是叫請假 他有請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2050.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2072.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那這些模糊地帶之所以發生就是因為我國對於政務人員的行為沒有像公務人員一樣建立明確而有拘束力的規範導致部分的政務官服務的對象不是國家跟人民而是披著行政外衣實則替特定政長作戰的政治打手 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2073.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2098.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
政務人員是基於政治信任而受任掌握政策形成規劃跟決策的核心位置對人事預算跟行政方向具有重大的影響正因為政務人員的權力重大影響深遠所以更應該有清楚的行為準繩與法律邊界但是現行的法制對政務人員行為規範仍相當不足所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2099.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2112.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本席不是第一個提出政務人員行為基準法的立委事實上過去在民國84年 98年 101年考試院也曾經提出相關的草案顯見各界都認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2114.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2130.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
當政務官掌握行政權力預算資源的時候如果沒有相對應的義務規範就容易將行政資源政治化讓國家治理被選舉算計取代讓人民對政府公信力產生懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2131.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2150.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我們這次修法我的草案有三大方向第一個就是明確政務人員行為邊界要求在職務執行上必須維持公正與依法行政禁止政務人員濫用職權與行政資源介入政治活動不得影響他人的政治行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2151.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2167.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不得在办公室时间替政党或候选人动员或助选第三个是命定责任与罚则机制确保法律具有实质拘束力本校重申行政机关应该是要服务人民不是服务某个政党 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2168.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2183.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
政務人員應該要守的是憲法跟法律不是政治任務清單而政務人員行為基準法是保障國家治理不被政治濫用保障專業行政不被政黨挾持更保障人民對政府的信任以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2197.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2201.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 我們現在請提案人汪小玲委員提案說明各位委員 各位同仁大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2210.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2230.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我國是針對不同的身份職業的人基本上都會頒布許多相關的法令包括行為規範倫理準則處罰規定懲戒法規等等譬如說我們像勞工有勞動基準法勞災法還有勞資增益處理法性別平等工作法等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2230.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2253.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那公務人員呢他是代表國家行使公權力也受到嚴格的法律義務的約束相關的規定的更是不勝美舉像是我們有公務員服務法公務員懲戒法考機法保障法公務員行政中立法到公務人員的相關的任用條例等等那麼教師呢我們也有教師法還有這個教育人員任用條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2253.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2258.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
警察也有警察法也有警察人員認識條例那麼軍人則有陸海空軍刑法懲罰法還有軍人的這個任用條例等等那麼但是政務人員呢我們到目前為止我們沒有一部專法是去規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2270.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2290.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
政務人員的那麼除了我們待會會講到的政務人員的去職輔助條例好 那麼事實上立法院早在民國84年的時候當時就做成附帶決議要求考試院要將政務官要政務人員法要函送立法院審查那麼最近一次的政務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2291.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2297.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
法案是在101年的時候送到立法院審議但是13年過去了我們看到這群權力龐大的決策者依然沒有一部專門的法律來規範他們的行為以及任免本心認為這是很奇怪的擁有巨大權力 龐大權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2313.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2333.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
還有分配資源的政務官卻沒有一部專法來規範我們目前對於政務官的權利義務的規範是相當自力破碎的而且是欠缺法源依據的那麼有關政務人員的任用薪水保障的規定大部分都是散落在不同的法規當中甚至有些只是行政命令法律效力未接不足像是這個政務人員的這個給予表 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2339.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2354.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那其實它就是依照行政命令的位階來適用全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點那目前唯一的一部專屬正規人員的法典竟然是規定這些正規人員在退休之後怎麼領錢正規人員的退職撫恤條例像這種只管 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2359.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2379.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
退場領錢不管在場表現的法制漏洞不僅不利於政府的運作也難以回應公眾對於政務官紀律的期待尤其是近年來我們看到社會上屢次發生政務官行政不中立政治不中立甚至利用職權向大眾散佈不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2380.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2401.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
訊息的爭議那麼如果我們繼續任由這種制度的缺漏不僅會傷害文官體系的專業性更會動搖民主政治的根基那麼為了完備國家的法治落實責任政治所以本席在此呢特別提出這部政務人員法的草案那這部法的草案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2402.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2423.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
本期基本上是參考這個過去考試院曾經向立法院提出的版本學者的建議以及現行相關的法規範的發展大致上分為四大重點第一個就是我們明確定義誰是政務官只要是總統任命立法院同意任命然後特調特派的人員以及民選地方行政首長等等都應該受到適度的規範第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2425.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2449.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
就是建立嚴謹的退場以及考核機制只要是政務官表現不佳除了自行請辭往往只能靠政治責任下台所以本草案明確規定政務官未來如果有違法失職因案被羈押起訴或是因病無法執行職務超過半年類似像是陳菊院長這樣情況那麼上級機關就該予以免職此外為了杜絕利輸送我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2450.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2467.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
增設了嚴格的消極資格譬如說曾經犯貪污內亂等等這些犯罪形態或是違反選罷法經過判刑確定的話就不能夠擔任政務官等規定第三點我們這是強化行政中立以及行為的紀律禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2467.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2489.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
政務官罷工待職利用職權圖利特定的人士動用行政資源來編發宣傳品散佈不實的資訊或干預選舉以及選轉門條款等等這些規定第四法則透明化而且未來要監察與把關法律不能只是裝飾品所以本草案規定政務官如果違反兼職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2490.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2508.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
禁止行政中立或者是禁止行為未來將處罰兩萬到二十萬元等等不等的罰還那這些行政法呢都同意由監察院來處罰並且公開於網路那麼讓公眾檢驗那麼在民主國家當中我們知道政務官譬如像是部長委員會還有這個大法官考監委員等等都扮演 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2512.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2531.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
至关重要的角色协助总统带领国家前进的方向所以手中的决策是会直接影响到全民的权利以及国家的未来发展那么建立制定政务人员法非不能也而是不为也所以本席认为说这部法必须要尽速的通过我们要让 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2534.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2550.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所有的权力的行使者都能够在法制的轨道上面运行要建立一条清晰的红线规定草案的内容许多都可以建筑在相关的法律规范之中所以在此也请各位委员还有社会大众能够支持好 谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2563.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2573.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
目前提案委員都已經說明完畢了那麼接下來我們就請機關代表報告那每位發言時間三分鐘首先我們先請考試院的劉晉熙秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2578.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2607.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安很榮幸今天在列席貴委員會就翁昭偉所拟據的政務人員法草案還有羅委員等拟據的政務人員行為基準法草案提出報告我想就如剛剛兩位委員所做的提案說明就這個我們政務人員法制的這個部分在過去這幾十年來有經過不同的階段跟一些轉折那的確一開始就是在民國84年的時候是在立法院在審查中央政府總預算的時候做出了一個附帶決議就要求考試院在 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2608.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2624.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
一年之內把政務官法送到立法院來審查所以考試院後來的確也在87年到101年的十多年當中五度把這個草案送到立法院來審議但是都沒有完成立法程序近年來大概在考試院第13屆跟14屆討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2625.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2654.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是不是要繼續推動這個相關法案的時候就牽涉到跟行政院之間的權限爭議行政院也有表達說像這樣的草案是不是應該屬於考試院的權責還是應該是行政院的權責這的確我們在討論過程中有輔助這樣的議題那考試院就基於現在我們政務人員法制的事項雖然沒有一部專法但是它也散見在各相關法律當中也大致有所規範並不是完全沒有規範而且也執行起來也並沒有摯愛 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2655.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2681.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那再加上本案的全責歸屬確實有爭論所以我們就請全序部暫緩推動來持續繼續持續跟這個相關機關來協調那這是有關這部法過去的討論的過程那今天會議即將討論幾份由這個委員所提出的草案呢那主要是希望來制定一部專法那就把現行散建在各其他法令當中的相關權利義務或行為分際的規範做一個整合和這個再精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2684.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2710.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個部分就規定的內容跟必要性我想我們會尊重貴委員會的討論但是對於說本法案要不要將考試院名定為本法的主管機關這個部分我想多做幾點說明第一個就是說其實多數的行政多數政務人員都是屬於行政體系不管中央或地方他的任命也大多數都有高度的政治性他跟考試院主管文官體制的權責的性質確實有相當的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2711.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2735.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第二個部分就是其實政務委員適用的相關法律像財產申報法或是利沖法等等其實也都並沒有明定主管機關這樣的條文第三就是目前草案當中其實有諸多的規定它分別要由行政院或考試院或監察院來分別主責法案內容涉及了不同院級機關的權責同時它也跟各院主管的相關法律有所連動跟重疊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2736.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2750.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以本法是否應該明定考試員為主管機關有必要再請各位委員再多加斟酌那以上報告敬請委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝劉秘書長那我們接下來請群敘部的施部長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2757.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2783.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席各位很早我想部裡面對翁委員跟羅委員這個要新訂有關政務人員相關的法律一個看法剛剛我們秘書長大概大致上表達本部的一個立場我想主要還是要講是說有關政務人員目前從84年以後其實我們有很多新的法制也出現了包括中立法本來服務法要做一些修訂然後我們請假規則各式各樣都有修訂所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2783.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2809.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
相關的政務人員各式各樣的行為規範是擅見在不同的法律也包括剛剛講的財產申報法各式各樣的一個狀況所以確實是沒有一個把它彙整成一個專法所以有沒有制定這個專法的必要性這當然有見仁見智的一個看法那這部分我想委員有提案我們部裡面是尊重委員的一個提案那第二件事情主要還是要講是說即使是要定上這個專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2811.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2830.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我想本部的立場是認為本部不是我想包括這個考試院不適合擔任這個法律的主管機關這個主要還是要講整個政務人員的概念政務人員基本上就是受民選行政首長的任命所以他是個高度政治性的職位進退是誰在民主政治的國家進退是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2832.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2850.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
民選行政首長來自由任命所以這個部分並不是典型公務人員所以考試院根據憲法的執掌並不涉及政務人員所以我們並不認為這個適合由考試院來負責這樣一個事情當然最後我想還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2852.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2865.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
任何涉及要新訂任何這些法律的特別是政務人員法律相關事宜的事情本部的資料會提出這個說明是說目前在台灣所有所謂政務人員的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2867.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2889.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
他不是只有在中央政府其實地方政府所任命的那個政務人員的人數是遠高於中央政府那至於這個法律任何定一個法律條文到底是不是可行或者要怎麼務實我想地方的民選行政首長可能對這個法律如果可以提供給更多意見我想對法律是比較有幫忙的事情我想本部做以上一個建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2891.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2897.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝施副部長那接下來我們請房屋部政部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2904.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2930.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席 各位委員今天奉邀就無差別攻擊犯罪事件防制其良形檢討及證務人員法草案證務人員行為基準法草案向各位委員報告首先就無差別攻擊事件防制以良形檢討專題報告部分那關於本案的一個處置案發後北檢立即指派檢查官成立專案小組指揮警察收證鑑識釐清犯罪動機等事項犯罪被害人保護協會在第一時間啟動即時關懷 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2932.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2951.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
的機制對死者家屬重傷被害人已經提供法律協助跟心理支持協助申請犯罪被害補償金後續將持續這類的一個相關的支持管理防治方面本部指示調查局加強行收強化網路巡查對網路出現的供給預告及時介入調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2952.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2973.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
本案發生後出現謀反的行為本部要求檢察機關採取即時發現積極偵辦快速偵辦的原則已經有14個地檢署偵辦此類案件並依法採取生壓暫時安置起訴的作為那台高建水成立督導的一個小組綜合全國偵辦的能量只要出現謀反行為一律重演從事的追 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2976.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2999.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
偵辦並發布新聞說明遏制危害公眾工企的事件因應歲末大型活動人潮聚集本部也則有聯政署政府體系全力配合各機關強化維安 確保公共安全無差別工企新聞惡性重大請抬高監督督導各地檢署就新法57條首例的犯罪動機目的等情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3000.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3027.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
提出具體的良心意見 如個案有良心不當依法提起上述究竟其實就政務人員法草案 政務人員行為基礎法草案審查部分管理政務人員適用的定義跟範圍那委員所提草案未排除司法人員大法官 最高法院院長最高行政法院院長 懲戒法院院長及最高檢察署檢察總長等司法人員但上次司法人員分別具有法官檢察官的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3027.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3044.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
以國家職務關係 因受憲法直接規範的特別保障與政務人員與國家職務不同所以兩者不適合一體施用相同的規範又因憲法 法官法及相關法令已經對上次司法人員涉有特別的規範是否應將司法人員排除 嘗試換位 見請再酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3047.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3072.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那文委員版以刑法跟刑事法同類第四條第二項這部分是否有體力的一個相符建請在座另外政治限刑法第28條就類似狀況已有行者規定且證物人員收受賄賂已有貪污自費條可之處罰未必免法律使用跌床只要建請審查事法能有重覆規定的一個必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3073.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3087.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那其他草案的規定不能尊重相關主管機關的專利意見及大院的審理的結果以上報告請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝曾部長那我們接下來請人事行政總處的蘇俊榮市長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3099.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3113.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
今天本總署應邀列席貴委員會深感榮幸以下請就病案審查召集委員翁曉琳等人提及的政務人員法草案及羅志強委員提及的政務人員行為基準法草案進行檢驗報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3114.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3130.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
請各位委員指教考試院之前曾以八十七至一百零一年間五度會選行政院索尼的政務人員法草案橫送大院審議因為藉其不審議未完成立法最後前序部以一百零八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3131.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3154.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
再將手擬的政務人員法案函報考試院審查因考試院及行政院就政務人員法治事項尚需進一步討論又現行政務人員的任免行為規範潛力義務等相關事項已以公務人員任用法行政中立法及護法等定有相關規定實務運作尚無自礙所以會沒有再繼續推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3156.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3174.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有關翁召偉及樓委員所提的草案版本本總署以原體書面報告 敬請各位委員參考至於各草案的條文內容本總署將以直條審查委員遵循意見時提供以上報告謝謝大家好謝謝董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3180.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3207.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那麼其餘提出的書面報告機關有沒有要口頭進行補充的或說明好 那麼沒有的話那麼我們機關代表的報告完畢那麼相關的書面內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那麼接下來我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時候得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答的時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3208.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3213.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
截止發言登記那麼我們首先先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席麻煩有請考試院秘書長法務部部長監察院今天的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3236.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3262.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
麻煩幾位機關代表請到前面謝謝委員長針對今天所排審有關於翁曉琳委員跟羅志強委員所提出的政務人員法我先請代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團表達支持理由非常的簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3263.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3290.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
過去在扁政府時期到馬政府時期兩度都曾經提出過政務人員法但是或許當初因為改革的決心不足或許對於一些政務人員相關的規範不想要用法律規範自己的行為導致沒有完成立法其實在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3291.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3296.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
觀察立法院裡面的運作就知道當你反對一部法律的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3297.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3321.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
最好的方式從來都不是說我反對最好的方式就是說要再研議 再討論 再商量能拖就拖 能混就混時間過了就沒有關係現在有非常多的問題都反映出來為什麼這個政務人員法有必要我先從第一件事情開始請教一下考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3323.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3348.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
陳菊院長從2024年12月請假她生病請假這個我覺得人之常情希望她能夠早日康復但是國家必須要有制度在國家的制度下我們目前的政務官請病假最長可以請多久現在是依照這個公務人請假的規定來處理但這個詳細的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3351.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3378.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
要部長還是要人事長誰法規比較熟誰上來回答根據請假規則應該這樣講他可以先把休假什麼請完以後然後兩年裡面最多可以就是說他可以先請他可以有兩應該這樣講兩年裡面可以有請到一年可以請到一年嘛那目前陳菊院長請假超過一年沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3379.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3400.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我的了解因為他是分年嘛因為今年還有明年今年應該還沒有那再叫明年那實際的個案要捐責案才具體的了解沒有啊 今年今年你講的是2025年嗎今年還沒有 還沒有他的今天幾號今年12月31號嘛今天12月31號去年12月就開始請了嘛他會把士兵價什麼都先扣掉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3402.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3421.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以還要繼續然後特休也要把它放進去嗎不是啊我是一個法律人我聽到這個我已經聽不下去了我為什麼聽不下去病假就病假試假就試假休假就休假 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3422.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3434.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我跟委員報告他是之前先請他的休假先請他的病假所以他一開始去住院的時候是用釋假的名義去住院嗎是嗎具體的細節我不知道來 請監察院的代表假是怎麼請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3440.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3468.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
報告委員根據公務人員請假規則的規定是然後如果是說因為重大傷病非短期間所能治癒的部分的話他其實是在依規定可以在合給的病假試假及休假均請閉之後是總共加起來幾天兩年內可以就是請不得超過一年然後總共加起來的部分的話因為我們院長其實他工職資歷比較長所以他的那個休假的部分有30天所以總共加起來可以請幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3470.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3496.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
如果是試駕並駕休假的部分的話一年原則上應該是可以先請65天所以他現在是一年加65天還要再等兩個月就對了是嗎因為去年他應該是12月請假嘛是吧去年12月底的時候因為這個新聞上都有去年12月底開始請假但是我們如果在114年的時候從1月開始的部分的話可以先請完他的試駕並駕休假之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3498.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3524.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
才會再請延長病假對 所以延長病假可以請到什麼時候全體國人很關心嘛我們台灣是法治國家嘛不要因人設事嘛全體國人很關心啊當然啦你如果說從政務人員自我要求的角度來講擔任這麼重要的政務人員超過一年沒有辦法上班還是決定不辭職 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3526.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3551.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
其實也是讓大家看了覺得不曉得該怎麼形容沒有關係每一個人有每一個人的政治選擇因為現在沒有政務人員法你如果按照2012年那一版的政務人員法的話這個就構成了必須要請辭的事由了但我們現在沒有政務人員法就沒有辦法每一個政務人員自己選擇自己去注意社會上面的觀感 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3553.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3561.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
大家現在看不懂的是監察院反正是肥貓院也沒有什麼關係有沒有院長也沒有什麼差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3564.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3586.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以呢我們在規範這麼重要的問題竟然是回到了公務人員請假規則公務人員請假規則明明生病是病假但沒有關係我們從寬認定試假也可以其他假也可以全部假全部都累積起來沒有關係所以全部的假累積起來什麼時候會期滿現在沒有辦法回答沒有關係會後書面回覆可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3594.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3613.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個我們可以回覆說我們都是依規定會讓就是說就是都是依規定請假的部分所以說我們今年度基本上市併休請完明年也是會是市併休請完之後然後在兩年內不得延長一年的狀況之下然後請沒有啦依法不就一年嗎怎麼聽你現在講起來要請兩年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3619.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3633.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這個部分的話因為我們其實是都是依照請假規則的規定在做請假公務人員也都是這樣子沒有關係啊你們是不是有按照規則大家看在眼裡啊我們繼續往下看現在陳菊請假嘛黃士卓出任監察院秘書長誰挑選決定的誰決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3643.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3672.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個是我們院有經過那個知情總統同意對啊誰就是誰決定的是總統決定的還是現在代理院長決定的這個你沒辦法回答好啊監察院另外一位代表有辦法回答嗎直接由總統決定嗎所以是你們簽公文上去嗎你們完全沒有簽公文上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3675.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3687.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
不好意思你們兩個現在回答不太一致你們有簽公文給總統說要請黃士卓出任監察院秘書長嗎有嗎所以給總統的那個建請的那個之文任命黃士卓是誰蓋章的本院代理院長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3704.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3732.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
依照監察院組織法的規定祕書長由誰挑選決定依照監察院組織法的規定祕書長由誰挑選決定你們回去看一下法規嚴格啦我實在真的是大開眼界 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3733.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3759.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
自己對自己組織法裡面主管的法規可以不熟成這個樣子沒有關係不為難你們你們都是專業優秀的事務官我為什麼會提這個問題出來找一個發表不實言論抹黑人家被判刑有罪確定的人我先不管他黨派色彩夠不夠找一個被判有罪確定的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3760.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3784.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
然後要長監察院的秘書長要整治關真他先整治他自己的關真吧他先整治他自己的關真吧任用這麼重要的位置現在已經是沒有標準了啦也不用考慮社會觀感院長請假超過一年沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3786.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3814.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
找一個被判刑有罪確定的人來當秘書長也沒有關係因為這個地方社會對他已經沒有期待這個地方社會對他已經沒有期待要養什麼人 塞什麼人 當政治疏洪道就是現在監察院存在的目的李敬義 林玉榮 蘇利窮 王榮章違法濫用公務車 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3817.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3844.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
去年六月移送紀律委員會用最快的速度處理到九月的時候沒有處理那時候監察院來找我拜託我支持他們的預算給他們一點錢能夠做一些活動我那個時候扛著政治壓力我點頭了我說好好做好好做你們的覆密跟我說九月份會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3846.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3855.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
處理到現在10月的時候紀律委員會完成調查報告10月份會審議審議的結果為後續的處理審議完了沒有審議完了沒有還要審議多久沒有關係啊所以就要攤開來給社會大眾看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3877.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3905.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
讓全台灣人看一看嘛什麼叫做官官相護嘛什麼叫官官相護嘛回去轉告代理院長以及副秘書長我這個人可以被你騙一次但我絕對不會被騙第二次今年九月的時候在這邊協商你們的追加預算的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3907.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3934.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
你們的副秘書長是怎麼跟我拍胸脯保證的9月一定會處理處理到現在12月啦處理到現在12月啦錢騙到了以後能拖就拖 能混就混上下交鄉賊 大家一起胡搞瞎搞這個國家還有什麼關鍵啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3936.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3960.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這國家還有什麼關鍾啊來 請考試院我上一次說我成立了國發基金調查委員會的時候我是很認真在做調查我還寫了大概是本院少有的國發基金調查委員會的調查報告書那份調查報告書我寫了非常的久 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3961.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3990.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
以前成立什麼調閱小組大概都虎頭蛇尾連一個調閱報告都沒有我花了很久的時間寫調查報告書其中有一段是這個國發基金自己的執行長執行秘書在掌理這麼重要的國發基金要投資哪一家公司這麼重要的事情結果自己退休了以後跑去他決定要投資的那家公司當董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3991.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4020.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這是什麼跟什麼明確的違反了公務員服務法第16條的規定當我說明確違反公務員服務法第16條規定的時候國發基金 國發會很會趕快幫忙找黨建牌法條的文藝如此的明確公務員與其離職後三年內不可以擔任與其離職前五年內職務直接相關的盈利事業董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4021.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4038.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
國發基金的執行秘書參與審議決定要投資那家公司結果離職後馬上去那家公司當董事公務員服務法白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚你不用用什麼目的解釋體系解釋 歷史解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4041.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4058.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不用用那麼複雜的法律解釋的方法我一解釋看就知道了當然是違反公務員服務法16條結果我們的國發基金膽子好大趕快幫忙脫罪脫罪的方法是什麼找你們選區部以前的一個韓式 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4061.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4082.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
說國發基金投資完全不是用公務員服務法旋轉門的條款我上一次質詢的時候我也跟你們解釋過你們過去的那個函式有多荒謬有多荒謬 按照你們那個函式你們那個考試院的函式現在荒謬成什麼變成公務員服務法16條的後門條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4086.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4106.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
用一個絕對錯誤的函式來架空公務員服務法16條的規定我請你們回去承諾檢討那你們檢討完了也回來給我不過你們寫得很好你們是補充說明 是吧不是更正 是補充說明所以是更正還是補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4111.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4127.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
應該是更正喔所以在你們更正前那就沒有辦法啦就被他逃掉啦是是這個態度嗎來來來你們選區部的函發的是什麼再補充如說明你們告訴我的是補充嘛那現在看起來到底是補充還是更正 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4141.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4155.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我想我們部裡的態度就是我們本來有一個舊的韓式不夠完整 也謝謝委員的指教所以我們就把它再召開各機關來討論所以你認為你們過去所謂不完整的韓式到時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4156.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4171.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
有人去告發他違反公務員服務法16條你認不認為你們那個不完整的韓式會拿來被犯罪嫌疑人作為抗辯的室友所以我就按照考試院的韓式啊考試院的韓式說這樣做沒有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4172.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4181.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我想跟委員報告 我想任何的訴訟最後都是法院會去做裁判那法院會不會幫新的一個...對啊 但問題是為什麼會出來這個東西為什麼會出現這個問題這個問題一開始就不應該出現嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4190.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4219.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
為什麼在追溯違反公務員服務法16條的道路上會出現了一個在規範上面本來根本就不應該存在的障礙事由不就是你們考試院創造出來的嗎我想各位明白因為那時候我雖然不在部聯不過我可以理解那時候因為對政府可能對投資這個部分還沒有很多的這一方面那時候是在採購跟營價為主所以我想當初有一個背景所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4219.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4245.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以我們因為新的一個發展形勢變更 謝委員的指正新的發展形勢 你講的好像是2025年我們政府才開始投資一樣從舊的韓式 到現在考試院有停止運作過嗎?全序部有停止運作過嗎?沒有啊沒有啊你說要因應時代的需要對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4246.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4275.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你們就你們所長的業務有因應時代的需要嗎有切合現實的需要嗎因為你們這個韓式幫這種可恥的行為創造了法規上的障礙這個就是我今天要講的當然是法院最後認定嘛那法官想說人家就按照選區部的韓式啊國發基金也幫他脫罪啊怎麼會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4279.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4303.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
結果選區部幹的不是好好的在貫徹公務員服務法16條應該要求的標準是在幫忙開後門讓人大開眼界大開眼界這個案子最後進入了司法程序以後會怎麼處理我們拭目以待看我今天在這邊預測的你們幫這種可恥的行為開了後門我講的對還不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4314.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4315.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
好 謝謝黃委員那麼接下來我們請陳培芸委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4335.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4364.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好 謝謝主席 那先我想先說好了 主席我就先不請相關部會主席今天排的這個案子其實主要是主席想要談自己想要修的這個政務人員基準法草案還有政務人員法草案可是我想要提出一個問題太好了 吳宗憲委員你到場了我記得吳宗憲委員也有提案可是我在今天的排案當中一 我沒有看到吳委員的提案我也不知道為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4365.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4380.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
再來如果我們看現在排在委員會裡面的羅志強等人還有翁小玲等人的相關法案我必須要說它是一個大雜匯雜到其實有非常多前後矛盾的地方可能連兩位委員的辦公室的助理都沒有發現還是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4381.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4396.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
刻意的要把它變成一個完全沒有章法完全沒有辦法有行政配套也完全沒有辦法讓相關機關好好執行的大雜匯的法案導致如果這個法在在野黨強力表決通過之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4397.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4421.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那之後所有現在坐在這邊的行政機關都會非常的頭痛所以我今天一大早來看了所有相關部會的報告我也非常的納悶而且相關部會其實都已經指出今天在委員會裡面想要討論這兩個法案大雜燴到什麼程度呢一看起來這個法案來自於非常多現行的很多法案包含第一個公務人員行政中立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4421.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4447.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
第二個公務員服務法第三個公職人員選舉罷免法甚至我們還有相關的請假規則選罷法相關的事情可是看起來翁委員或者是羅志強委員就看到影子就開槍他覺得只要跟公務人員有關跟政務人員有關跟他們想要攻擊的特定政務人員有關他們就拿起來放在相關的法令裡頭所以我要說我感到非常非常的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4448.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4462.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
自詡為法律專家法律學者教授的主席竟然安排像這樣的法案甚至自己也提了相關的法案我想身為司法法治的委員我在這邊快要一年了我要說每一個主題大家都可以花力氣討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4463.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4481.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
每一個在意的個案也有機會變成通案的考量來讓所有的國人對所有的政務人員更有信心而且大家不要忘記了政務人員不是只有來自中央政府有政務人員地方縣市首長一旦新上任之後他也有非常多政務人員需要派任 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4481.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4503.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以你以為你可以攻擊到誰你以為你可以打擊到誰但不要忘記了這個法一旦施行它所適用的不是只有中央政府機關它還有地方政府機關所以我還是要再一次嚴正的表達我的遺憾我真的不知道自詡為法學教授的主席為什麼要拼湊出一個大雜燴荒謬無旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4505.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4527.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
荒謬至極而且我認為所有的行政機關再次強調不是只有中央所有地方政府也會非常難以實施我等一下會根據這個部分再跟相關部會討論但是在開始這個專題報告的質詢之前我要先提出這個嚴正的抗議我要拜託主席拜託召委不要浪費自己召委排案的機會非常非常的可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4528.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4549.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那我想我還是要針對無差別攻擊事件喔做出一些我個人的討論第一個 我想要相關的適者至上撫慰的心情我要說哀悼 謝謝我罵人罵得太生氣了 好我真的看到這個主題 我真的看到這個主題非常的排暗的部分 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4552.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4569.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所有關於這些事情我想國人都希望不要再發生但是我要講的是朱熹很希望談所謂的量刑這件事情我知道相關的輿論跟新聞也有很多的國人在關心可是我們光就今天這個個案來看因為這個人他現在已經死亡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4570.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4581.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以那他已經死了所以我想相關量刑很難討論可是大家可能接下來會關心的是那未來假設還有相關無差別攻擊事件我們會怎麼討論量刑那這個部分是不是可以請相關機關法務部來討論一下好不好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4592.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4611.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好部長您辛苦了部長我如果沒有記錯的話在相關事件之後由政委已經召開跨部會的會議那我想法務部應該也參與其中那關於現在國人關心量刑的部分不知道法務部這邊有什麼看法跟主張關於這個無差別社會攻擊我們就聽一聽部長這邊的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4612.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4631.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個的確是我們在第一時間我們就成立的專案小組 是那另外我們也非常就是注意會不會有擴散的一個效果所以我們除了台高檢有組那個一個獨島小組各地檢有那個一個應變的一個小組加強查緝那目前我們是採的態度就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4633.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4648.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
即時的發現機器查辦快速的一個偵辦那目前我們已經起訴了已經有五件了那另外已經有羈押了13人了據保9件那有相關的案件有37件 被告有35名 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4649.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4671.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那這部分我們是有依據就是我們為了預防這一種的一個案件我們有督導那個調查局這部分要跟警政署來做一個加強的一個行收另外我們網路的巡邏的一個機制避免產生魔網的一個效應那另外這部分檢查這部分我剛才已經報告過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4673.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4701.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那這個就求刑的這部分這的確要具體的一個求刑這個是惡性狀這嚴重違反社會治安的案件我們會依照相關的一個我們頒布的一些行政法規包括那個提示檢查運用求刑的引起注意事項檢查機關辦理刑事訴訟案件引起注意事項以及檢查機關辦理重大刑案的注意事項來具體來求重刑我們非常擔心壓制這一種的這些的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4701.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4728.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
是而且包含還有模仿犯的部分剛剛法務部長這邊也提到了所以我想國人在關心的部分法務部應該已經注意到了那我們就期待你們除了收集社會輿情之外也在相關合理的法規範當中我們讓這些模仿犯也好或者是我們都希望後續不要再發生相關案件來謝謝法務部接下來有請內政部應該是民政司吧我們要來談一下關於小局書的問題來謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4731.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4758.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
在第一時間我們看到劉部長他已經說未來在小局處的內容會進行改版就是增加對於暴力的襲擊事件或是關於恐怖攻擊事件的指引必須要予以肯定那我這個部分非常感謝內政部做出非常快速跟及時的回應那同時我們要提醒其實在相關的新聞事件當中我們看到例如說像那個地下街的相關咖啡店他們就第一時間把門拉下來但是我想應該是這個個別的工作人員他有意識到這件事情他可能本來就有這個嘗試 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4760.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4786.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
有这个能力做出这个应变但是是不是其他的公共区域的商家店家或者是一般我们在公共场域当中的路人去逛街的人去在外面公共场域的人他们也有这个意识那我想后续小局书在改版的部分你们是不是也会再增加这个部分因为小局书的整个制作内容是属于全动数的业务那这个部分我们会帮忙跟全动数做反映好OK可是所以不跟你们内政部有关 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4786.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4809.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
內政部當然有做一些協助的部分包括發放然後還有宣講的部分那就拜託如果在我們還來不及改版內容之前因為我知道內政部即將開啟全台灣的巡迴講座對嗎關於這個小局數的部分那是不是就拜託內政部在相關的活動現場做講座的時候也把這個部分先放進來然後後續內容改版的部分我們也會再持續追蹤好嗎我們納入演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4811.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4817.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好 謝謝那接下來看一下警政署 來 警政署辛苦了警政署有來嗎有喔 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4822.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4846.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
你就邊走 我邊說好了我們節省時間警政署的部分我想其實國人都會關心關於警察的設備尤其第一時間有很多人在說提高見警率尤其是今天開始今天下午開始很多年輕人可能不只年輕人很多人都要到跨年的現場全台灣有三十幾場相關的跨年活動 對嗎你們這邊警力部署的狀況可不可以跟大家報告一下目前現在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4850.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4872.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
包括今天的跨年跟明天的延長總共大概目前比較大型的有37場那這部分我們有各縣市的我們警察局包括我們的同仁還有會運用民力來協助協請那相關的勤務的部署大概都在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4872.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4888.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那我們也有警政署也派高層去到各個警察局去做督情務必要把這個請問的進行能夠部署能夠嚴密來確保整個活動進行的一個安全好 我想這邊還是要想 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4889.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4902.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
先向所有在這兩天要出勤的不管是基層員警或是剛剛您說的高層的警官到現場去協助督導確保相關業務可以順利然後確保人民的安全我想這邊要先向所有的警務人員說聲謝謝因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4903.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4933.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
在歡樂大家在放假大家在跟家人朋友相聚的時候是你們先犧牲了假期你們先犧牲了自己的歡樂時間先為國人貢獻這個部分要先感謝但我想後續一定有很多人一定跟你們提到了關於警察人力的問題關於警察設備服裝相關的問題或者是見警率要提高之後那其他的警務工作有非常多平常就在進行的瑣碎警務工作後續的調配應該也會是你們很頭痛的部分可不可以關於這個部分簡單的回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4933.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4951.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
包委員 這個部分我們有在從事件發生以後有陸陸續續在進行包括一個勤務現場的處置然後後來的人力的一個禁用還有包括裝備的一個採購這個部分我們也一直在做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4953.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4975.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
在做整備上的一個檢討這個已經在推動好 這個相關的報告再麻煩給我們辦公室一份關於人力的部分關於設備或者是相關服勤的班次的規劃因為其實也有很多來自警戒退休的人其實也提出一些建議提高監警率可能只能安定民心可是就於維持治安來說可能還會有不同的反效果但因為時間有限我們可以之後再來討論我們會再跟你們要相關報告好嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4980.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4983.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好 謝謝接下來這個部分就先跳過好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4984.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5010.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個部分先跳過我想要講一個很重要的事情我們看到事發之後第一時間台北市新北市諮商跟臨床心理師公會他們就發了一個聯合安心指引希望讓民眾在看到相關的新聞如果要避免自己的焦慮到底可以做哪些事情除了少看新聞之外停止傳播安心生活指南還有彼此關心的安定力量這個部分是來自民間專業社團的協助我們要再次感謝所有心理師給國人的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5012.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5039.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
接下來要看很可惜今天主席沒有請到他們就是衛福部其實第一時間政委開啟緊急會議的時候衛福部第一時間被邀請進到跨部會的專業會議當中衛福部在第一時間就說要提供給三次免費心理諮商不管國人你當時有沒有在現場只要你因為覺得你自己受到這個新聞事件的傳播所受到影響影響你自己的心理穩定性那 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5040.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5069.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
就開始提供三次的免費心理諮商可能很少人注意到這個事情然後就連我們的主席都沒有邀請到衛福部來很可惜但我想沒有關係我們還是要再次提醒國人而且這個是不限年紀不限有沒有在場都要持續提供三次的免費心理諮商這個部分我也想要藉由今天的質詢再次感謝衛福部雖然他們沒有來我們也呼籲國人如果你在相關事件感受到焦慮感受到不安都可以用這個衛福部的相關免費心理諮商好 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5069.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5073.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那最後我想要談今天的法案這邊就要有請考試院辛苦了來謝謝祕書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5078.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5104.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 民主黨我想要就三個問題跟您請教我就一併問你再一併回答好嗎好來我剛一剛開始我就已經破題了關於今天要修這個政務人員法或者是羅自強委員提案的版本我都說它是一個大雜燴怎麼說呢關於主管機關的部分我記得之前行政院就有表示過如果有政務人員相關的辦法專法要修法的時候主管機關不應該是考試院行政院有表達過相關立場應該要是行政院所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5104.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5134.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
但是现在的版本还是写考试院我等一下想要请您表达意见第二个在第八条当中有提到这个写法我觉得非常的特殊他说政务人员提名或者是任命之前各个机关要办理品德跟忠诚的查核必要的时候呢应恰请有关机关协助办理涉及国安或重大利益的时候还要办理特殊查核我就先不要问查核的办法我就问一个基本逻辑就好了秘书长你听听看 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5134.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5149.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
明年2026即將有地方大選各個縣市大家都卯足了勁很多候選人就開始努力了可是地方上的縣市首長要輪替了例如說台中的盧秀燕市長她即將要卸任了換新的市長假設現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5150.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5165.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
整個台中市已經確定提名的是何新淳我就以何新淳委員舉例假設何新淳委員他選上了當台中市長那他就要選任一批政務人員陪他進到市府裡面開始為台中市民服務 對嗎可是如果按照這個辦法 這個寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5166.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5192.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那難道何新淳委員何新淳市長他未來要提名的政務人員的名單要交給盧秀燕市長去做審核嗎做品德查核嗎做忠誠查核嗎這個很奇怪又或者是新北市侯友宜市長即將卸任現在只有提名確定的蘇巧慧委員他的政務人員的名單一樣要交給侯友宜嗎因為主管機關到時候就只剩下前任的縣市長了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5193.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5215.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
他更不可能交到中央來這就是我剛剛破題的時候所說的翁委員或是羅委員在提案的時候完全沒有意識到他們可能本來只想針對特地人員特定案件但他完全沒有想到相關的配套或是當中央跟地方各自分工各自有業務要執行的時候就會遇到了困難所以我剛剛舉的是兩個非常荒謬的例子當然你可以再告訴我其他例子可是我要說從這兩個荒謬例子才可以凸顯我剛剛說這兩個法現在大雜燴之荒謬之混亂的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5222.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5239.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
第三個第18條關於關於辭職的部分其實剛黃國昌委員也講了因離病致無法執行職務逾六個月我認為這是非常針對性的寫法明明在相關的公務人員辦法裡面請假辦法裡面就已經有相關的辦法為什麼還要在這裡多寫上一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5239.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5252.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我光是就這其中三條關於主管機關關於品德跟忠誠的查核還是還有關於離病的這個部分影響了非常多相關政務人員的權利我覺得非常非常的荒謬這邊以上請秘書長一起回答謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5254.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5270.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
謝謝 我就簡短中後回答就是說我剛剛舉的那個例子現實上是有可能發生的政治實務上因為很多任命或者是宣布任命常常是在就職前這個就是政治屬性在政務官層是政治屬性上會發生的事這個條文的原 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5271.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5298.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
原來的應該是來自於我們任用法那它因為它本來是對文官的規範那在對文官任用之前進行相關查核這個比較不是執行上比較沒有問題但是如果是對政務人員的部分的話它比較就會有委員剛剛講那個例子那現實上的確會有這樣的類似的狀況不管地方或中央那所以這個也就是回答委員第一個問題就是說考試院本來任用法是文官的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5299.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5321.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這個相關的部分如果把它應用在政務人員身上的話因為它的屬性就會差別很大才會有剛剛委員舉例的那樣的狀況所以它的確不太適合有考試院來主管因為考試院是比較文官法制屬性的一個機關政務官的確是高度的政治性尤其這裡面還包含了民選政治首長還有所有民選政治首長任命的政務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5322.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5345.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
你講那個第三個部分這部分我覺得可能會變成是說有些法條如果不是那麼的明確的話最後也會出現各說各話比如說責任歸屬是不是有達到所謂廢持職務或者是誰在廢持職務的一些權限爭議的問題這個也有可能會變成可能是不一定在限制上有辦法去做明確的認定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5346.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5362.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好我想最後我就再做一個結論不管是我剛剛隨便舉出來這三條多麼的荒謬我要再次拜託主席拜託羅志強委員我剛羅志強委員你剛還沒有來我就再講一次所有這些你們現在提案的版本根本就是一個大雜燴在相關的辦法裡面其實都已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5362.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5386.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那各自的規範如果委員們覺得有不足其實關於部分條文都可以去修正就好了而不是在立出一個荒謬期非常荒謬的專法而且我剛說是大雜燴到底是適用於文官還是適用於政務人員可能委員們自己都還沒有想得很清楚就只是想要針對個案去做攻擊所以我最後一個荒謬的例子再請秘書長告訴我對不對就像當年馬英九總統要卸任的時候是小英總統要接棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5386.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5396.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那難道小英總統的政務官派任相關的查核要交給馬英九政府來決定嗎這非常非常的荒謬所以拜託所有的委員請踩下煞車 以上謝謝謝謝祕書長接下來我們請那個吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5419.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5442.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
麻煩部長還有理聽長請部長還有聽長兩個部長是鄭部長嗎還是對 鄭部長兩位早安我想今天還是依據我們的今天的主題來去討論我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5445.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5462.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
今天到底社會安全網是哪裡破了一個洞讓風險一直流到高人流群的這個地方我先引用一個警察他有一個在網路上面一個貼文他說每次出事高層震怒媒體追打基層背鍋 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5465.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5490.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那警察變成是這個每次行政漏洞或政治公關的止痛藥每次警察都是這樣這我很能夠理解因為以前我也看過都是這樣出事就推給警察但是我還是蠻希望說法務部在治安上面你們還是要做一個整合跨部會的整合從制度面著手因為我國目前不是雙偵查主體我國目前是單一偵查主體所以警察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5491.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5491.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5517.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5546.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這部分我們有責請那個因為這個獄警的話我想我們自治法警察就有調查局我們跟那個警政署做一個聯訪做一個聯訪的一個機制來加強一個刑事的一個說法跟分析當然這些我們會做一個網路的一個巡查的一個機制如果說有網路或社群媒體有發現有這種此類的當然我們要趕緊去好 謝謝部長這個我在你們報告對 杜王志報告裡面是這樣講但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5546.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5569.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
現在還有一個問題就是說北車這次的張文或是之前的鄭捷其實他們都是社交孤立的人他們的個性他不會在Thread或是Facebook上面去寫說我要殺人讓你抓所以我們今天花了大筆人力譬如說吊牙站的人力傻去網路上面抓人但是會不會反而放任的炸彈客在社區遊蕩 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5570.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5591.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個其實有一點是像在路燈底下找鑰匙就是哪邊比較亮就比較好交差但是真正的核心問題並沒有處理到所以這是我第一個我要跟部長說明的你們的報告裡面提到說這個網路預警系統這個要做沒錯但是這個不會是很主軸因為你看張文你看鄭捷這兩個轟動社會的這兩個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5594.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5619.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
其實他們的社交他不會去做這些事所以你只著重在網路這是一個很大的問題所以我今天的訴求很簡單就是我希望說怎麼樣整合警政跟衛福部的資訊來把這個社會安全網把它建立起來你們的報告午夜我看了半天其實我還是沒有看到怎麼去接住社會的這些被漏接的這群人所以防務部你想如果今天我們的家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5620.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5643.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
每天要搭捷運去通勤那你會不會很害怕會不會又有這種事情發生會不會又有模仿犯發生還有提高見景率我覺得這個東西這個是行政院這句話其實是沒有任何意義的話這只是短時間讓人民安心事實上它對於預防犯罪的用處其實沒有那麼大更何況你社區或是定點的巡邏 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5644.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5662.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那這個要做壞事的人就避開你就好你走過去之後我再幹就好了而且增加見景率它會排擠掉其他辦案的人力一樣你會導致其他的問題發生會不會因此而導致一個家暴案件的法案就這樣漏失掉這也是我們擔心所以我要跟部長說明一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5663.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5681.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我這邊有一份106年法務部司法官學院花了109萬的納稅錢9年前他有做了一份報告陌生者兼隨機殺人犯罪特性防治對策他有說明到一個點而且引用非常多國外的案例他說得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5682.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5698.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
兇手大多不是精神病患而且前科紀錄表命中率高達73%這是法務部的報告我想部長您很忙應該沒有時間但是我這邊跟你直接把一些重點講出來他們是針對221名在監殺人犯去做研究在針對其中15名屬於隨機殺人犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5701.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5720.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
的資料跟政府的四大資料庫比對包括第一個有沒有讀書這跟教育系統有關第二個有沒有看精神科這跟衛政系統有關第三個是不是高風險家庭這跟社政系統有關第四個有沒有錢哥這跟司法系統有關所以哪一個最能夠提前抓到這些人我們看到你們的報告裡面寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5722.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5751.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
最高的是刑事前科命中率高達73%連那個精神科就醫記錄只有60%的兇手有記錄但是刑事前科有73%的人在裡面都查得到也就是說四個隨機殺人犯裡面有三個在殺人之前其實早就有前科記錄了也就是躺在櫃部的資料庫裡面前科表就有部長您對這部分你有什麼想法這邊我們再來瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5752.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5777.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好吧 那副部長之前不知道這個是你們9年前就已經做出來的報告所以我要跟你們說明一下刑事政策是法務部在管我們是單一偵查主體那民國94年法務部自己就已經說完成刑事資料智慧查詢系統提升檢察官辦案效能所以這個東西你們不能再推責任那這次我還看了一下那個國土安全部的那個報告也很不及格 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5777.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5797.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
他說要加強國人的防衛意識我覺得這句話等於把問題丟給國人還是說我要加強國人的防衛意識所以我要再印小局書2.0版去要預算是不是這樣所以國土安全部的國土安全辦公室的這份報告等於是沒有報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5799.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5825.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我還是跟部長說明一下就像我剛說的你們的報告已經說明了73%的隨機殺人的人犯裡面他已經有刑事前科的紀錄也就是說這些資料是躺在你們那裡的那你們是不是可以用這份資料去勾結其他譬如說衛福部譬如說教育部等等的資料去弄清楚誰是高風險的犯者不然你不能說 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5827.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5845.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個刑事資料庫你在掌握你有GPS結果你還在路邊瞎子摸象搞不清楚狀況是怎麼樣部長能夠從前科表就能夠去預防很多事情包括像其他那些隨機殺人犯部長對這部分你有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5846.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5873.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我想這個是前科範一定是現在進入到更生的階段或保護管束的一個階段甚至是已經都結束了那這邊我們會請檢察機關在執行反起訴或者是保護管束的階段顯化關乎人跟司法保護職工對高風險個案的一個認識跟輔導做心理一個輔導我們希望在輔導這些的更生朋友或者這些的反起訴的這些的一個一個被告或者這些保護管束這些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5875.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5880.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
更生人這部分能夠跟社會的安全環境做一個銜接然後就輔導他們做一個更生這樣啦 我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5886.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5913.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
雖然張文他不是那種重大前科的前科犯但是他是通緝犯對不對他是通緝犯嘛他是拿來兵役通緝犯對 他是通緝犯那我們看刑事訴訟法87條甚至通緝犯檢察官是可以抓的對不對刑事訴訟法87條嘛這個訴訟法有規定是司法警察當然檢察如果說甚至有利害關係也可以逮捕 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5915.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5941.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好啦 那個 反正部長你去看一下新宿送87條其實通緝犯是檢察官以及司法警察都可以去逮捕的人所以你不能說跟檢方沒有關跟法務部沒有關我再跟你講張文雖然他是那個防衛兵役的前科不是那種什麼暴力犯罪等等的那種但是他至少他是個通緝犯他並不是說你沒有辦法去勾結出來他可能是有高危險犯罪的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5943.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5968.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
更何況我也覺得很奇怪他還可以在外面租房子他還可以去住旅館這個都需要登記的結果後來都沒有人發現他這其實讓我滿匪夷所思的一個問題而且其實我國通緝犯滿街爬爬照但我也不知道為什麼就是抓不到當然什麼時候最會抓就村安的時候因為積分高 警察都在那個時候抓村安以外不是特別的時候根本都沒有人在抓 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5969.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5993.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這也是很多檢察官都反映過我想部長一定很清楚這個我再說張文雖然他的前科看起來算乾淨可是過往我們有非常多的案子他們是有很多奇怪的前科在譬如說今年10月在苗栗有一個當街吵小朋友去砍人的那個案子他就有很多次吸毒傷害人的前科 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5993.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6012.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
像這個的話它就符合106年你們的報告裡面說73%的前科族群裡面所以去從前科表去勾基然後再配合一些社會安全網等等這個確實是有機會預警到這個就是你們的報告內容部長 這個報告你們要不要去把它拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6013.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6034.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
重新再審視一下你們花了一百多萬去做了這份報告結果你不能沒有做啊但是這九年下來你們就是沒有做啊部長這我們來努力好那這部分你自己承諾你要努力我們來努力雖然我們知道食物上面殺人大部分都是有恩怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6035.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6058.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
隨機殺人其實大概是5%但是每一次發生它都是讓社會重大的震驚所以我還是拜託部長你能夠把這個高風險的這個前科名單跟社安網警政署的一些資料去做一些勾擊至少可以攔截掉七成以上的悲劇還有一個就是因為廳長也在我就要跟廳長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6059.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6085.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
部長你們這些資料配合衛福部的資料警政署的資料如果能夠再搭配過往的刑事判決其實你們是可以做出分析的哪些人他將來是屬於高風險的那這個時候是不是我們公權力就要稍微介入去關懷持續的關心去降低他這種恐怖攻擊隨機殺人這個狀況發生部長我不知道你認不認同這個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6087.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6109.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這部分我們來努力我想這部分防治這種全民有責那我們法務部會關注這個問題部長那個不能說只有努力兩個字好不好因為解套的方式就在那裡那我剛講的也不是我個人幻想出來的而是貴部在106年的報告自己做出這樣的建議好不好我們當作一個重要的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6110.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6134.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
還有高檢署這次有搞了一個督導小組那這個是完整的嗎他能夠指揮衛福部教育部然後調動警政署的資料嗎他能這樣做嗎這個督導小組本來就是一個辦案的任務的編組那這部分是直接是在一個追究就是有一些的模仿效應的部長但是我很怕你所謂的任務編組搞到最後都是應付立法院沒有 這個我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6135.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6163.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那我再跟你说那个106年报告第32也有提到设置社会安全团队执行长那个人来跨部会去统合拜托你们是不是可以思考像行政院做出这样的建议依据你们106年报告第32也要设一个这种跨部会的执行长否则到之后法务部没办法指挥卫福部啊然后大家又开始到之后横向联系又出问题了各部会这边要有行政院的一个高度但是你要去建议啊我们法务部是属于 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6164.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6183.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
屬於那個一個辦案的一個我知道啦 部長你不用跟我講這個還有一個犯罪被害人不是 部長那你可以跟行政院講你是行政院裡面最高最懂法律的人所以也最懂治安的人那你是不是要跟行政院做這樣的在全國我們必須要尊重內政部的這是你們的刑事政策吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6183.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6206.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
當然這個是我們會做一個跨部會的原來我們社會治安就是卡在這個是行政院的事不是法務部的事是這樣嗎不是 這個是你說是行政院決定的或法務部沒辦法我只是拜託你法務部是不是可以跟行政院建議去做一個跨部會的這個指揮而且這也是你們106年的那份報告裡面做出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6207.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6232.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
當然我們可以提供一些的意見來過跨部會那你至少你是不是可以跟行政院做出這樣的要求這樣的建議或是把你那份研究報告給行政院看不然你那花了一百多萬去做的那份報告不就沒有任何意義了嗎好不好你很多時候去勾結他的就醫紀錄行蹤紀錄等等的不會發現不了就像張文他被通緝了那難道他這半年沒有看醫生沒有用健保沒有經過入口監視器嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6233.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6253.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
其實這都是我們懷疑他也新聞報他還去住旅館住旅館你是要登記身分的就完全都沒有勾結到就讓這個人在外面趴趴照那我提出一些解方我提出一些質疑點我不是找貴部麻煩而是希望你們能夠思考一下怎麼解決然後怎麼跟行政院那邊去溝通不能說 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6254.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6279.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
只有被害人沒有人權被告人權滿檔不能這樣子你法務部不能再用實質廢死再餵養下一個殺人犯我跟你講今天有一個另外一個主題是法官怎麼判刑我跟你講民國98年的時候有一個凶嫌黃富康因為心情不好他就隨機殺人他把房東也殺了他還要想殺他的老婆還要砍他老婆小孩結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6280.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6309.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
他在監獄裡面關了十幾年最後病死在監獄裡面所以他等不到槍決他被判死刑定驗了但等不到槍決就病死在牢裡面那司法院的報告這次司法院報告這次你們也引用先判八說要最嚴密的正當法律程序然後講的也是新聞在講的那八大關卡所以我們今天我們這中華民國變成是要判死跟登天一樣難要執行死刑那更困難所以就都不用了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6310.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6334.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我國現在犯罪成本超級低部長 我知道你聽了中言逆耳聽了你可能不爽但是我還是必須告訴你我們現在我們的司法系統我們的法務部以及司法院聯合努力之下讓我們這個國家犯罪的成本壓到很低我今天台灣人民看到的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6335.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6356.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
一個毫無悔意隨機獵殺房東殺妻兒的死刑犯國家用納稅錢養他養了一輩子而且不依法執行死刑犯在台灣變成民存死亡這就是實質廢死所以殺人犯就覺得反正我只要拖得夠久國家就不敢殺你如果我們讓死刑犯有這種感覺部長對不對 是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6359.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6387.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
部長你們都不執行嘛我有執行過啊對我知道謝謝你所以這個就是本來應該要做的嘛我們不是人民對政府的最卑微的期待不是就是依法行政依法行政拜託依法行政這不是人民最卑微的期待嗎那請問其他34名死刑犯呢這些都死刑定驗的為什麼還要繼續拖你是不是還要讓外界覺得反正多年以後還是可以逃過死刑所以這34名呢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6389.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6391.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
这还有34名你们怎么处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6394.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6422.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這部分現在最高檢在一先判的意思在主案的審查是我要提非常上訴那我想我們就那沒有提的呢沒有提的你是不是要執行了這部分最高檢要審核他審核如果說沒有非常上訴的或其他的一些申請再審的一個室友沒有我跟你講你們真的是佛心來的對被告超級好被國家關到死都不用執行我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6423.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6449.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
苗栗那個暴力前科犯出獄之後根本沒有完整的追蹤跟剿制在街頭再犯這代表什麼我們國家的刑事政策根本兩頭空要嘛對犯下極端惡行的人你就猶豫不決然後搞他實質廢死要嘛對於有再犯風險的前科犯你也缺乏追蹤人放回社會就不管了我們看到的是這樣人民看到的是這樣你技術性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6450.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6464.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
阻擋死刑其實在凌遲那些被害人家屬然後我再跟你說2019年10月4號有一個中華警政研究學會他有一個議題從隨機殺人案件談社會安全網的建制他會議紀錄第12到第14頁當時那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6470.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6493.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
著作者他也去提到兩個案例第一個湯姆雄殺人案的那個兇手還有第二個北投國小割喉案湯姆雄那殺人案的兇手怎麼樣他說犯案前我有上網查過判決在台灣殺一兩個人不會被判死刑那我在牢裡關一輩子就好所以他殺了一個10歲而已10歲而已的小朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6494.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6507.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
然後這個人在上網前查判決他發現精算過犯罪成本超級低連法務部跟司法院聯手搞實質廢死把判死刑跟執行死刑的門檻搞得跟天一樣高 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6508.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6530.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那你不就告訴全國的這些潛在的罪犯你放心殺就算你殺小孩只要不要殺太多個都沒事國家會養你一輩子國家國立養生村讓你在裡面住一輩子更慘的是2016年這個人果然如他所願判無期徒刑所以沒有判死刑他的預言成真 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6531.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6557.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以最快25年後也可以出來這就是一個悲哀那北投國小那個割喉案那個殺的是8歲的女童他說我想自殺但是沒有勇氣也許住到監獄裡面我的幻聽就會不見了所以他是換一個地方養老就我剛講的國立養生村請問一下貴院 貴部你們是在獎勵犯罪者嗎你們為什麼要實質的去推動這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6559.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6586.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
廢除死刑我們是執行死刑現在宣判113年宣判八次的那個也是所以我剛講的三四名死刑犯都沒有到現在也都沒有執行已經過了那麼久了還是一樣所以是不是我有時候氣到講不下去2017年無期徒刑定讞國家就是養他們一輩子所以到最後最可怕的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6587.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6614.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他們殺人之前上網去查 查完之後認為成本很低去殺了一個不認識的小朋友 毫無恩怨的小朋友殺完之後如願所長 法務部司法院變成許願池許願判無期徒刑 果然無期徒刑好 進去關 爽了25年之後申請假釋就有可能出來這是我們現在看到的社會問題啊這個一二審法院都是有判 最近的憲判發作法院也是有判死刑的案例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6615.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6619.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我知道 但是所以我没有说废除死刑我是说你们实质废死 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6622.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6648.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這34個人也是判死刑定讞但是貴部連執行都不敢執行不是就這樣嗎對你有執行一個謝謝你但是依法行政不是最基本的嗎對不對還有34個沒有執行我跟國人說我已經執行一個了所以我有執行是這樣子嗎更不要講當時社會輿論說這個人根本被殺就是拿來記其用的是當時社會發生的問題拿來記其用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6649.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6668.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我想最後我跟部長報告一件事情你不能做到整天在搞提升健舉率什麼加強什麼我還沒講完捷運暫停的守望因為這會怎麼樣這會讓警察累死 法務部裝死 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6669.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6698.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我看到的是這樣警察類似法務部裝死法務部沒有裝死我如果說裝死的話這句話我居然沒有公知我沒有裝死你怎麼可以直接就講法務部裝死我又受不了法務部長了報告主席我又受不了法務部長了法務部長可不可以請我講完話之後再請你論述你的委屈好不好部長當警察在寒風中站崗的時候櫃部在幹嘛在辦公室冷氣房裡面在想怎麼幫死刑犯逃死 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6699.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6700.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我剛有說了我講完之後 請部長論述可不可以 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6722.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6736.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
麻煩部長我講完之後再請部長論述部長我剛講了警察在韓風東執行站崗的時候我們法務部在辦公室想怎麼幫這些被告逃避死刑我們今天看到的是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6738.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6754.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
你要研究怎麼樣讓死刑更難執行所以我一直覺得當國家沒有辦法保障人民不被殺死卻可以保障殺人犯在殺人之後不被判死這是我現在看到我憂心國家的一個問題所以我對法務部有兩點 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6755.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6770.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
要求 最後這兩點我說第一個啟動73他的這個前科名單就剛你們貴部106年的那個報告第二個 儘速公開交代除了微死刑的那兩個殺人犯之外其他的殺人犯目前處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6771.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6788.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
處理的進度這跟偵查不公開無關請公佈讓我們國人都知道我跟你講我剛剛講那兩個隨意殺人的那個殺小孩的那個只是想吃老飯但是呢他卻利用貴部的一些想法那他們現在就是很開心的在他的國立養生村裡面去過 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6789.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6798.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
爽爽的在那邊過日子而且不要再用這個什麼督導小組這種虛設的這個單位來騙社會等一下等我講完部長我會讓你講這種虛設單位來騙社會這個沒有意義這是拿來騙立法院拜託法務部坐有遠見部長你不是來吵架的我跟你講完之後讓你講部長部長可不可以我講完之後我讓你講嘛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6816.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6837.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
部長我講完之後我一直在一再的說我講完之後讓你講嘛那我剛提的那兩個建議嘛制度上面有建議因為我覺得法務部不是在處理一個單一個案而是在為國家的有做一些有遠見做一些制度性改革的事好 部長 讓部長講他如果喜歡講讓他講麻煩部長最後一分鐘然後之後因為今天時間已經超過很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6838.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6849.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我對吳委員你講說檢察官在裝死在辦公室吹冷氣這部分我嚴正的駁斥你當過檢察官你也知道檢察官非常的辛苦像今天這個1.2.1.9的隨機殺人事件檢察官在第一時間主任檢察官帶檢察官直接趕回現場了我們第一時間也責負了請要求的整個台高檢察成立的一個督導小組然後給檢察官然後每一個地檢署都動起來就是應變小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6866.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6885.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那這段時間就為一個網路的巡邏也查緝了那麼多的案件也押了14個人辦了37個案件另外還有緊職安置1人那這個也起訴了5人了那這部分怎麼會在辦公室吹冷氣然後你跟我講說委員你有講說你有證據說我們檢察官在幫被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6886.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6908.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
在免除他的那個死刑我們就是嚴正的對惡性重大的最嚴重影響社會治安的這下面我們就具體嚴重的一個這個具體的求重刑你怎麼會去講你當過檢查部長怎麼會講這種話部長我在講東你在講西我剛講的是在實質廢死的部分你在這邊跟我講社會個案我從來沒有說社會個案的檢查官沒有認真我也沒有說警察沒有認真但是我們看到的就是你不敢執行死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6916.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6930.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我看到是這個點所以我從頭到尾我講的是實質廢死的部分你要去扯到個案不用來騙我們我邏輯能力沒有那麼差可以這樣講嗎可以這樣講說我們檢查在辦公室吹冷氣在那邊幫被告那個那個實質廢死就是這樣沒有沒有這回事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6931.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6955.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
你關在裡面那麼久為什麼不敢執行部長你為什麼憲判八出來之前有多少人關了十幾年為什麼你不敢執行如果你說憲判八出來之後我無話可說憲判八出來之前為什麼部長你不敢執行憲判八出來之前部長我再三講了為什麼憲判八出來之前你已經當部長了為什麼你不敢執行好謝謝好謝謝好請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6962.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6964.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
好 接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6973.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6995.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好 謝謝昭緯非常感謝昭緯今天排這個主題那也就是針對我們這次無差別的這個攻擊犯罪事件那我們在這邊討論如何防治還有這個量刑相關的一個議題那我想現在在這麼多元的社會我們會碰到這一類的事件事實上是會越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6997.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7014.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
但是這次我們大概就先針對這個事件發生以後我們要整個國家是不是有足備的能力來針對假訊息還有陰謀論來做一些處理跟因應那麼這整個事件裡面很重要的就是網路跟盛情平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7015.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7022.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
也是針對網路跟社群平台一些沒有查證的訊息這些陰謀論的相關指控會刻意來渲染 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7036.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7058.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
犯者的家世背景 國籍 親屬身份結果還散播了相關的境外勢力的滲透還有特定族群來製造恐攻等等的說法這些內容在當時其實是沒有經過警方的證實而且還被很多專業人士已經談到是造謠所以本席在這邊要指出來的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7059.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7084.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
整個資訊戰會從失控的言論資訊趁虛而入那往往是透過重大的公安事件來利用恐懼不安跟憤怒來放大社會的內部矛盾然後刻意挑動大家平常在關心的這個政黨族群身份跟地域的一個對立那重點就是會讓整個社會的互信來削弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7085.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7095.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
也會攤販了集體的理性跟決策的能力所以本席現在來請教警政署今天警政署是王組長還有廖政傑是保安組的副組長 王副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7107.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7119.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那剛才本席已經把背景大概交代了一下所以重點就在於事件發生的這個同時那可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7119.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7147.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
在這個多元事件裡面整個比較多元的社會裡面現在我們會面對很多沒有辦法預期的狀態所以警政署在這個部分在事情發生以後網路上的大量流傳的也沒有經過查證嫌犯背景陰謀論跟仇恨性的一些言論那警察局是不是已經有刑事警察局是不是有系統性的收集掌握跟分析了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7147.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7174.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那第二個部分是假設訊息明顯的涉及許多不實的資訊然後惡意煽動相關的對立那警政機關目前的因應作為是什麼是只能在事後澄清呢還是及時可以通報跨部會的聯防與追查那是不是可以請警政署這邊做一個回應謝謝委員那因為這個部分是我們巡視局的業務我們請巡視局來幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7176.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7200.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那這邊跟委員做一個報告就是這個專案成立之後那我們警政室有成立一個專案的小組而且他每天都會回報在當時嗎 就是當時馬上對 馬上就成立了 對那我們現在每天都會統計這個網路上面有一些恐怖攻擊的這些或是不死的這些言論那目前有收集到了118件那已經有查緝了23件還有22個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7203.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7230.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
對 我們每天都會做一個管制而且會通報各縣市警察局要聯合來做一個查緝好的 這個是針對本席的第一個問題你們針對這個事件大概有一些系統性的整理是第二個部分如果在同時間很快的就有人同時在散佈這些言論的話你們是不是只能在散播之後然後有一些回報的時候才有一些回應呢還是即時就可以跨部會的一個處理跟追查 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7231.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7253.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個部分我們會通報各縣市警察局他們有一個科技犯罪偵查像這次的事件就在台北市然後各縣市警察局這個可能又更久了我們本期是在談事件處理的事件發生的當下你們的整個處理有沒有在即時性的部分大概在怎麼樣子的誤差呢對一個比較重大的一些事件我們會立即通報相關的一些部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7254.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7269.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好啦 這個是你們講的這個通報你剛才講到各縣市有相關的部會其實本席這邊比較關心的是說那如果面對這些這個可能跟事件相關直接相關或間接相關或者是沒有相關的這些資訊那其實它有的時候會 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7270.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7285.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
誤導成另外一個事件的發生那這個部分你們如何因應跟處理好 那你剛才其實也沒有直接回應到這些問題是不是可以把你們在這件事情的一個作為上給本席送一個報告好不好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7285.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7312.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以剛才本席講的這個部分最主要就是說在事件發生的時候很多的謠言陰謀論跟仇恨的敘事都會在社會當中發酵那這會產生國安問題但這個國安問題不是事件的本身而是可能平常就有一些有一些東西在發酵所以其實這次的個案可以讓我們看到整體性的整個社會安全或國安問題該怎麼去處理因為很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7313.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7342.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
在這個事件裡面搞不好跟國安沒關的那它就會導引成一個國安的一個狀事件跟狀態然後把真正要處理問題的這個焦點導到別的地方所以那新聞又尤其是會這個樣子把一些陰謀論然後推波助瀾又成為另外一種幫兇所以這個部分我覺得你們應該要在這次事件裡面做一個整理然後聚焦在如何不要讓事件擴大成為其他不相干的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7344.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7367.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
第二個部分 這個部分我們要請教法務部跟國土安全辦公室是不是請相關的代表所以本席剛才講到陰謀論跟仇恨的敘事在社會中會發酵有的時候不是只有在輿論的層次有的時候就會產生一些集體暴力的模仿跟再現這一次我們知道法務部這邊有相關的一些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7368.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7374.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
但是這次重大的隨機殺人事件有假訊息也有陰謀論的擴散以外還出現了一些恐嚇的言論攻擊的預告跟仿效的訊息這也是一個仿效效應的警訊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7383.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7403.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
法務部有對外表示你們要全面啟動應變作為目前高等檢察署有成立督導的應變小組也要求各地方的檢察署來成立反放恐怖的攻擊應變小組要強化網路的巡查這個是法務部目前已做的本席這邊要強調幾點剛才部長這邊有提到在這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7410.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7414.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
發生之後呢剪刀機關目前辦了14個人然後37個這個案件嗎這個部分是不是可以請您我是剛才聽到委員在質詢的時候那您有這個數據的一個回應那因為是本席的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7426.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7449.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以可不可以請您在這個部分再更深入一點的回應就是說這個案件我們這個是一個多禮拜到十天左右我們到昨天為止那個已經我們辦了已經四十個案件了那有被告三十八名那五個人已經起訴了那另外我們生下十八件那有羈押的是三人 拒保九人那暫時案子有一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7449.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7479.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那這部分這個是這個督導小組的確跟那個應變小組的確是專組才專組專者檢查辦案的不是內警是專者來辦案的那跟警方做一個聯繫的傳口跟調查局所以我們這只會調查警方跟調查局來全力來查起這些的模仿的這些效應那因為這個民眾會恐慌所以我們是全力的壓制那所以這部分我們這邊是一個成果就實際上的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7480.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7506.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那另外那個對那個被害人那部分我們事實上也採取一些的關懷的一個機制在第一時間其實上我們都已經進入到跟被害人來做一個聯繫那我們啟動一路相伴的好的謝謝部長那所以本席剛才的問題您的這邊的回應那本席可能需要您後續在整個案件已經偵辦完成的這個部分給本席一個簡單的就是內容上的主旨上的一個回應好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7507.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7536.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那你們目前的作為已經針對這個恐嚇維安的這個言論已經做了一些處理那本席這邊也要請教的這應該跟國土安全這個比較關係是那在這個部分如果尚未構成一些犯罪而且但是是有一些高度風險的一個象徵那辦公室是不是有確保暢通的跨部會的前端介入機制本席這邊談的是一個模仿效應的前端防治的一個問題比如說風險的通報評估或中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7537.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7564.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
機關地方政府設服校園體系的一個協作來提前降低後續極端行為發生的一個可能法務部國土部署都可以做一個回應國土安全部這邊主席委員好針對這個部分後續我們也會依照院長還有兩位政委的指示督導相關內政部警政署交通部還有法務部衛福部針對相關的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7565.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7586.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
還有相關的預警的機制做相關的測驚作為以上所以本席這邊要談的是你們一些制度性跟跨體系的一些預防措施如何來真正的遏止這個模仿效應那這是我們從這次事件裡面看到的我們可以透過這一點來守住社會安全跟法治的一個底線但是同樣的也對於這個國安問題和 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7588.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7610.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
衛福社政教育體系的一個聯動我覺得都在這個事件裡面應該再做一個更縝密的一個處理那後續你們如果有相關的這個結果也是不是可以把報告然後回應給本席的辦公室那部長你這邊好像有要補充的就是說我們就遵照那個委員的一些的指示我們也會做一些的書面的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7611.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7630.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 謝謝最主要是我們現在很難去完全杜絕我們沒有辦法預測的一些事件跟行為最重要就是每一個個案我們如何去做處理跟因應當然有很大的系統性的問題是我們整個社會要去面對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7630.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7655.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以像我借用媒體的一句話一個人在社會中徹底斷裂又失去與他人連結的時候他常常會透過毀滅性的暴力來強迫社會看到他的存在所以這次事件發生的時候本席還蠻欣賞蔣萬安市長的一個回應他說他不願意去提這個人的名字因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7656.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7676.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這樣子會讓他成為這樣子的悲劇英雄我想在2019年紐西蘭發生的殺人事件也是同樣的道理當時紐西蘭的總理也不願意去提犯罪者的名字但是我們社會就很習慣的就把這些名字一直記然後一直講然後一直在散發相關的恐懼 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7677.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7704.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那我想相關的單位我們都應該透過這幾個事件除了在法律跟犯罪還有刑責上的一個處理以外呢那跨部會我們或許要知道我們到底哪一些東西是在這裡面完全欠缺跟漏死掉的好嗎好 謝謝那最後我是不是很短的時間謝謝兩位請教一下司法院那司法院今天是是我們刑事廳廳長嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7708.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7736.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
還有人事是處長我想兩個正好跟這些事情尤其是人事這個部分感謝昭緯在禮拜一排了一個司法院的考察我們辦公室有人代表我們去針對司法院的相關的一些業務做一些了解其中有一項也是本席經常長時期在關注的也就是司法體系是不是有足夠的工具跟量能來因應目前案件量 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7737.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7754.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟降低人力的一個負擔案件量變多但是人力負擔也變大那本席在這個委員會裡面經常在談這個人力的這個問題那我們知道在刑事案件已經用打擊詐欺因為打擊詐欺很多所以暴增那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7755.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7774.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
本期這邊就針對你們過去曾經對外公布的一個試驗性的政策也就是AI司法裁判草稿的系統你們在民國112年有發布新聞稿來指出為了減輕法官的工作量提升審判的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7775.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7796.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
不能安全駕駛幫助詐欺等犯罪的量刑智慧分析系統基礎上那裡面發展的深層是AI用於撰寫裁判草稿來供法官參考但是你們也有強調認定事實跟適用法律與量刑的一些核心事項還是可以由法官來完全自行決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7796.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7822.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那麼新聞稿你們這邊也提到說系統已經開發完成那也規劃了試辦那麼毒品罪裁判草稿系統也在111年發包然後原定113年規劃擴及民事交通事故消債更生清算等事件但是在113年應該是同一年那個的10月你們的報導相關的計畫就暫緩了所以在考察的時候我們其實也 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7822.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7844.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
也問過這樣一個問題所以我想請教一下你們目前AI導入司法流程並不涉及判決書草稿的部分過去也有同樣的模型的開發但是好像也沒有一些著墨所以本席要請教的是在112年新聞稿提及的這幾項不能安全駕駛幫助詐欺的這些生成系統目前的狀態是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7849.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7872.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那是已經完成沒有上限還是你們事辦了以後終止還是你們的政策方向有了調整然後毒品罪的一個裁判草稿系統跟後續民事裁定的這個草稿AI的開發案那是不是也還在原先的規劃內那如果是已經暫停或有調整方向是不是有正式的一些政策評估的報告或風險檢討的一個結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7874.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7892.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那這個部分是不是可以先做一個回應本席再接下去談是 跟國員報告一下因為這個不是我行事廳的業務不過在112年10月份我們有發一個新聞稿我們暫停暫緩相關的AI生成的一些裁判書的草稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7892.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7919.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
是因為有碰到什麼困難因為我們當時還沒有所謂的人工智慧相關的指引一直到今年的三月份相關的司法院引用人工智慧的指引才出來現在整個制度還有設計的推展是由我們資訊處還有司法執行廳在負責所以這邊也許是我們會後再跟委員做進一步的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7921.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7945.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好的那如果您這邊不是太清楚的話那會後可能相關的你們從一開始然後到底我剛才問的是說是有事辦了還是你們政策調整了或是您這邊說因為有一些指引出來了那是接續在處理呢或者接續還在推呢這個部分是不是可以給我比較清楚的一個回應所以我們不太會後再提供書面給委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7947.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7967.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那另外我在本席這邊再了解一下我不知道你們是認為目前AI不太適用在裁判草稿的一個輔助呢還是說你們對AI有另外一些想法那除了您剛才講的這個指引不曉得您對這個部分的就是院裡面這樣一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7968.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7993.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
基本上我們對裁判書不會是使用生成式的AI來製作這個是一個審判核心的東西必須要由人來決定裁判書這個部分大概我們的AI現在怎樣的是運用上大概比較偏向於資料的整理但是這個都還在研議中而已本席剛才有提到就是你們原先是想要這樣走 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7994.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8022.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
然後現在你說是這個裁判處的朝你這部分現在是沒有我們所知道好像新聞稿那時候是想說有朝這樣一個方向去走所以其實第一線的司法人員也會有這些期待那所以你們新聞稿這樣子發布然後他們可能有這些期待但是呢後續也沒有一些結果所以你們是不是更確定的讓大家知道以避免大家對於這個好像你們想要推動數位減輕負擔的方向那目前的做法或 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8023.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8047.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
有可能的一個推動狀況那產生一些期待的落差那是不是可以讓大家更清楚要不然你們112年講的這個方向大家有很多的期待可是現在可能中間有一些困難或過程或者是有沒有一些這個方向上的調整那這個部分是不是可以再更清楚讓第一線的司法人員去做了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8047.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8063.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
跟委員報告一下事實上我們的代理院長對新科技的使用在司法上非常有興趣而且非常有大力的在支持那事實上現在有推有組成一個科技司法的推動小組每兩個禮拜會開一次會那怎樣來就相關的AI的引進引進的程度跟風險的評估哪些是可以用哪些是不可以用這部分有逐步在每個兩週再做一次的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8076.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8099.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以本席這邊的重點就是說你們先前有公告那如果就我的了解就有一些可能有一些format你們就會follow這樣子的做法但是或許你們在過程當中覺得還是要以人來做這個處理但是可能很多人在第一次就聽到你們的這個新聞的發布就有一些期待那目前好像有一些落差是不是也可以載明 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8099.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8122.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那最重要的是本席這長期關心的就是司法人員過勞的這個問題那當然你們有找出很多方式想要來推動但是推動的成效 結果或者是方 政策如果有調整那這個可能及時的讓大家知道以免期待落差太大 好不好好 那相關的報告也就麻煩你們送到本席辦公室 好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8125.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8135.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好謝謝林倩琦委員那我們接下來先做會議程序的宣告待會在羅志強委員發言詢答完畢之後呢我們就休息五分鐘接下來請吳思揚委員發言謝謝主席先請正部長還有內政部警政署的代表有請正部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8154.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8178.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
委員好大家辛苦了我現在進行今天第一個議題無差別的攻擊全社會都要戒備慎防下一頁我要請教一下警政署的代表我實在是不堪其擾又來了冒用吳斯堯的信箱威脅要發動無差別的攻擊從12月22號到12月29號 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8181.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8205.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
六次包括昨天夜間我每一次被冒名用我的信箱寄信到警政署威脅說要攻擊101威脅說要攻擊松山機場威脅說要攻擊總統府不管是丟汽油彈或是要砍人我是不勝其擾那照程序每一次我都必須跑一趟北投分局 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8207.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8212.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
你想看看我這六天跑了六次北投分局有沒有查到什麼誰知道嗎報告委員 這個部分我們再做個查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8219.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8248.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
還在查證中這不是第一次這是第二波的六次下一頁前一次前一波是在國慶日的時候冒用吳思瑤的信箱總共10月9號到16次8次的揚言要發動恐怖攻擊你們警政署也已經知道不是吳思瑤可是我還是每一次都要跑一趟北投分局去報案 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8249.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8267.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那這八次查的怎麼樣也是 會不會再做個了解再跟委員報告是 好像都沒有辦法查到一個具體的因為我們也都心知肚明這可能就是惡作劇或者是刻意的要去滋擾立法委員下一次 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8270.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8285.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那張文的捷運北捷攻擊案北投屈我的選區倒是真的成為一個被指名要在12月31號也就是今天要北投砍死100人你們查出IP在越南嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8286.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8305.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這段時間冒名的這種重大網路風險訊息應該是22件立案偵辦的應當是4件這是我上週一質詢張署長的時候獲得的資訊請問北投這個案子有沒有進一步的查到什麼因為我們北投都在部署都在戒備有沒有進一步的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8308.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8328.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以你們今天來的代表好像就是不是很清楚這個辦案我要說就是無論如何這種網路的仿效的效應就是造成社會的恐慌甚至造成我被盜用帳號冒名的當事人的不堪其擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8331.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8346.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這種網路的查查偵辦無論如何我請警政署要能夠有所作為我不曉得我今天質詢完又要是不是又被冒名了我又要再跑分局報警一次真的不要再亂了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8350.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8369.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這些滋事分子滋事擾事的分子不要再亂了下一頁那我很感謝警政署我週一去內政委員會針對這個張文的模仿犯要在北投砍100人的事件我向張署長提出質詢之後我提出幾個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8370.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8393.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
就是應當在北投市林我服務的選區召開地方的緊急治安會議要落實官民協防我們的民防疫警社區巡守隊動起來然後加強巡邏提高見景率我那天江署長告訴我好像第一步是支援台北市警力中央支援好像80多人現在是不是又增加了應當是人力物力都來 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8394.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8400.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
目前還是維持在這個人數但是今天那個跨年活動會比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8401.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8427.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
對 跨年活動絕對要滴水不漏那當然增進公民的宣導對人民的危機意識要深化這就是我上週一質詢我謝謝署長我質詢完兩個小時內我就接到北投分局長的電話他跟我說 四邀委員謝謝你的關心我們週三就召開緊急治安會議我也親自去出席這就是讓大家都能夠守望相助 人人有責下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8428.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8440.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那我要肯定一下北投分局就是他們自己做的一個文宣啊您知道捷運站碰到恐怖攻擊要如何自保嗎有四字訣 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8442.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8464.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
警政署代表不知道這應該是我們北投分局自己的同仁很用心的製作跑 躲 擋 報第一個 能跑就跑第二個 不能跑就躲第三個 躲不了就擋 要找掩護最後呢 如果你安全了就報警跑 躲 擋 報 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8466.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8482.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我真的很謝謝北投分局這一次全面的總動員這樣子的資訊我覺得非常有利於你們在各地分享給更多的民防社區的系統好嗎那另外你們知道這本小局書全台灣發放的狀況如何這國安國安在發的你們你們有收集嗎跟各地的縣市政府鄰里系統在合作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8492.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8503.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
包委員因為這一個部分是內政部在主導就好你們今天找警政署好像都一萬三不知可能代表不一樣了OK |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8504.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8529.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我自己的轄區我服務的是林北投幾乎都收到了但是可能最後九成多還有一些last mile最後一些社區你們絕對要全力趕快把這個重要的人民強化民防的資訊全百分之百都要下放好嗎好 謝謝辛苦你們好 下一個進入今天的另一個主題就政務人員的專訪那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8532.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8538.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
當時我就提出了這是要誰啊你們行政院跟考試院好考試院好 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8541.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8562.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我就提出專法的必要性因為如同美國、加拿大、英國、德國、日本等等民主國家都沒有立這種政務人員專法也沒有禁止政務人員參與政治活動因為政治活動這憲法賦予人民的權利嘛而主管機關到底是行政院還考試院現在還莫衷一試 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8563.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8588.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那適用對象我看到三個版本羅志強委員翁小林委員吳宗憲委員適用對象不一翁委員的版本好像是適用比較大的把大法官法官都含納進去了那當然規範的行為包山包海也莫衷一事這些爭點你們認為現在有正向的結論可以進行立法了嗎你們誰要回答連主管機關考試院認了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8596.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8620.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
主管監察部分我剛剛有說明就是說這個法律裡面規範的有些部分行政院要處理那有些部分應該是監察院的工作好像有一部分跟考試院有關那牽涉到相關法律跟既有法律重疊的部分有考試院的法律沒有錯但也有行政院很多行政院相關法律所以也站在這個規範的對象因為高度政治性來講所以不太適合由主管管法制的考試院來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8620.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8639.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
您的回答其實跟我們上一次就這個主題也是一致你們倒是蠻一致的好下頁所以有這些爭點這是我8月28號召委排案的時候我就提出來的建議如果有院版不管是考試院版或行政院版政府的版本有會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8640.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8669.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
當然要不要立這個專法是值得商榷第二個我也提出建議呼籲主席這個課題要邀請學者專家中央地方政府因為很多是規範地方政府應當有公聽會再來處理這也是我今天的建議當然相關的法規配套不管是公務人員行政中立法公務員服務法公務員懲戒法或是刑法121條都要一併的檢視我依舊8月28對於委員會提出來的呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8670.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8698.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
跟今天12月31號我依舊建議不要為快而快不要倉促立法這依舊是我今天的一些主張好 下一頁我倒是覺得非常的遺憾這也不是要問考試院那就鄭部長您上來代表一下好了立法委員自己不守法反定專法要去管別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8699.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8728.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
只准立委放火不准政務人員點燈喔譬如說今天要立政務人員行為基準法這一屆的立法院的立法委員們自己都不遵守立法委員行為法了左邊是我們宣誓的時候的誓詞啊於是以至誠客尊憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8729.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8750.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這是我們每一個人就任的時候對著國旗對著國父遺像所宣示的最重要的就是克尊憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使權利但是我們這一屆的立法委員自己都不克尊憲法自己都不效忠國家自己都不依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8752.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8764.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
來行使代表人民行使職權我看到翁曉琳委員的版本第18條第二項救護人員如果有違法廢除職務之事就要予以免職 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8765.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8786.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那就怪啦立法委員自己違法立法委員自己廢除職務到今天12月31號了中央政府總預算第一頁第一筆預算都還沒開始審查這不就達到了自己廢除職務違法的就是立法委員啊立法委員要不要自己免職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8788.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8803.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
翁曉林委員的提案第14條他說如果政務人員利用職務之便然後去收受賄賂等等收受金錢契約或其他利益之捐助就要有罰則那怪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8804.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8831.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
國民黨的委員提出立法院組織法要把助理費納為立法委員的合法的補助費立委可以自肥立法委員自己貪獨自己把要給助理的錢變成自己的錢那自己立法委員憑什麼去管政務人員行為基準啊自己真的我委員自己的提案去想想發生在立法院的情景吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8832.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8844.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
不要立委自己不守法反定專法去管別人還包山包海管到海邊去連大法官法官都要管很奇怪下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8846.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8868.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
立委提案推翻憲判 這是我們上週五立法院院會晉覆二讀 譴責大法官而且立院用決議來宣判憲判無效而且不是只有這個憲法訴訟法的憲判無效喔我看國民黨團的這個提案甚至耳後啊 耳後啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8869.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8886.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
大法官援引此判決以人數未達憲法訴訟法所定的這個門檻的話一切的憲法宣判均屬無效不生效力應該是司法院的代表應該上來這樣一個憲判無效案用立法院的決議可以推翻憲判 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8888.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8916.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這就違反憲法78條違反憲法訴訟法38條違反釋字185號的解釋嘛立法院自己廢除職務違法還違憲要不要自己免職自己啊還敢訂政務人員專法下一個翁委員呢昨天提出一個要修公投法可以用公民投票來覆決包括憲法法庭的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8918.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8944.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
憲法增修條文第12條如果你要公投你就去修憲公投吧公投法第二條也規範了所謂的全國性公投依憲法規定依憲法規定要依憲法規定你現在要用公投法又去推翻大法官的憲法判決自己又推違憲法案不只沒有客尊憲法不只違法還違憲還廢除職務不審預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8947.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8968.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那這個標準立法委員自己要不要免職啊來 廳長您最棒您那天的很多答覆我覺得非常的公允立法委員可以用立法院的決議推翻憲判嗎立法委員可以修公投法啟用公投來推翻憲判嗎 您簡要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8970.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8996.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
委員針對這個事項分兩個部分一個部分就是有關於立法院決議譴責那個大法官的憲判這個部分那這個部分就是之前有說明就是按照憲法訴訟法規定憲法法庭的判決本來就是有拘束全國機關跟人民的效力這是第一點我就是要再度澄清的然後再來有關於這是最新的昨天要修公投法 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8998.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9016.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這個部分公投法將憲判納為公投的標的因為公投法其實是透過直接民權去補充代議民主的制度的不足在性質上面將一個司法的決定納為公投的標的會有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9018.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9034.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那就這個部分我先做一個簡短補充是 謝謝廳長我幫您翻譯為白話文如果任何一個司法的判決有委員不服以後就用立法院的院會決議來推翻司法的判決本來有罪的便無罪可以這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9036.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9048.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
或者是在野黨的委員不滿某一個司法的判決然後呢就發動勞民傷財全國性公投用全民公投來推翻司法的宣判可以這樣嗎 鄭部長可以這樣嗎不行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9053.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9074.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
翻譯白話文就是這樣嘛如果這樣依剛剛窩小林委員提的政務人員專法違法廢除職務的就要免職政務人員這些違法又違憲又廢除職務不成預算的立委不是自我免職自我了斷嗎最後來下一頁過去到現在阿扁執政時期135個釋憲案 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9076.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9081.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
馬英九總統執政時期95個釋憲案蔡英文總統時期120個釋憲案賴清德總統上任到現在8個釋憲案我要再次強調釋憲案98%都是人民權利不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9091.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9113.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
府院憲政機關的爭議98%都是人民權利如果國民黨所提的這一個推翻而後所有的憲判天啊天下大亂立法院最大又來了立法院最大又來了自己要不要先廢除職務先自我了斷自我免職啊下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9114.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9136.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以過去幾個經驗585號釋字在2004年的時候當時是陳水扁任命的大法官但是國會多數是國民黨因為大法官的宣判國民黨國會多數依舊通過了徵調會的條例的三讀修正依據大法官的視線去立法院作出回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9137.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9155.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
來做出一個合憲的修法這是針調會條例下一頁釋字613號是在2006年7月宣判的當時一樣是陳水扁總統執政沒有錯他任命的大法官但是國會多數是國民黨當時的國民黨還不敢這樣違憲國民黨也很快的在5個月後來完成NCC組織法被宣判違憲的組織法的修法他們改回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9165.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9193.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
讓違憲成為合憲再看大家印象最深的是字748號下一頁就是同婚法案同婚法案大法官宣判之後2017年國會非常的慎重國會的各黨派在2019年花了兩年的時間我們通過了亞洲第一個同婚條例合憲一憲行憲就是國會不分黨派憲法沒有顏色大法官沒有顏色 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9194.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9221.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
為什麼這一屆的立法委員要一再的挑戰憲法要不要依你們所提的政務人員專法自我了斷自我免職呢所以刮刮別人的鬍子之前先刮刮自己政務人員專法我再次回到我的要求要有公聽會因為它適用的範圍很廣它規範的內容很廣然後它主管機關不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9222.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9245.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
然後他所有法律的競合要一併思考我再一次提醒昭緯我們要做合法 合憲的立法委員因為我宣誓的時候吳思瑤對著憲法說我事已制成 恪遵憲法我相信翁曉琳委員也是這樣宣誓的不要心口不一 謝謝好 那麼接下來我們就請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9265.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9276.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
主席有請法務部長然後司法院刑事廳理聽長還有內政部警政署好 麻煩請幾位長官列席好 謝謝部長好在12月19號 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9290.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9310.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
捷運台北車站然後中山站發生隨機殺人事件3小時內造成兇手在內4人死亡11人輕重傷令大眾非常的震驚那也造成重大的傷亡我想要請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9312.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9340.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
如果這位凶嫌他活著的話按照現在我們的憲法判決憲判8號之後的整個的判決標準凶嫌會被三審判死嗎跟委員報告這個會不會判死刑這個是法院的審判非常好 我知道你怎麼回答不為難你來 我想請教一下我們的李廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9342.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9364.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
委員好你覺得兇嫌會被三審判死嗎這個個案的預測我不做判斷不過我跟委員報告在憲判八以後法院還是有做兩次兩個案件有宣判三次的宣判死刑案件非常好來我再想請教一下剛剛李廳長已經講了對不對在憲判八後對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9365.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9392.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
有三次的判決死刑的案件對不對包括像去年5月三重滅門案今年9月一審判決就是死刑對不對是一審判決而且是國民法官的案件一審判決之後就會執行死刑嗎 廳長要必須等判決確定之後才可以當然不會要等判決確定都不一定執行死刑對不對 廳長沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9395.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9424.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
執行是法務部這邊來執行對嘛 也不一定嘛現在還有多少的死刑犯還沒執行三省定驗的目前是36位36位嘛所以我要請教部長我今天還是很嚴肅的跟你講因為我剛剛看到吳宗憲委員每次跟你質詢你的火氣就比較大一點點尤其講到死刑的問題我覺得部長不需要今天又不是憲法憲判8號又不是你做出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9425.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9448.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我們只是就事論事來告訴大家憲判8號之後我就問部長判決死刑有沒有變得比較困難有沒有我們先從小的開始說起他這部分判決死刑這邊有沒有比較困難這個是個案的一個應該是司法院的審判的一個程序跟結果有比較困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9450.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9478.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
如果是對最嚴重之罪來講他應該判決死刑那是罪責相當的問題那自己說相關的一些程序的保障我覺得由個案來判斷是好 不意外的回答但是也尊重你們因為確實不是你們的職權可是我今天就要告訴大家為什麼社會大眾認為是實質判死實質廢死的判決我從幾個具體的事情來告訴大家我們先回到今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9479.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9500.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
12月19號這一齣兇殺案類似的情況跟鄭捷的狀況有類似吧 廳長對不對 也是隨機殺人案就目前知道的狀況是蠻類似的請問鄭捷被判了什麼判死刑 而且已經執行了對 三審判死刑執行在現判八之前還是之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9501.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9526.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
在現判八之前非常好這就是一個重要準據現判八之前像鄭捷這種案子他會被判死刑而且會被執行但是現在因為那個凶犯已經死了所以不知道這是未來是不知道可是我再想請教一下廳長也順便請教一下部長台版柬埔災案廳長知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9528.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9554.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我來舉重民眾我先不比較哪一個案件凶殘這個12月19號的案件凶殘還是台版柬埔案的案件凶殘我來問一些具體事實請問台版柬埔案案件當中死了多少人死了幾個人來 部長知道嗎 不知道應該是三位三位 我告訴你今年初發現多一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9555.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9584.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以你的資訊已經落後了今年發現多一位案發時三位被虐待死亡我想請教被拘禁凌虐多少人多少人六十幾人六十一人詐騙金額多少四億多少被詐騙的受害人兩百六十六位 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9585.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9606.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我要問最後問這個案件有沒有令人髮指部長拘禁毒打然後禁食然後未毒不從就打虐待到死關61個人詐騙4億是不是令人髮指部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9614.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9634.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
的確是非常可惡非常可惡 廷長是不是令人髮指我認同我直接跟廷長跟部長說簡直叫聞所未聞我真的說實在話我還真難找到比這個更凶殘的案件台灣發生過關61個人的案件嗎 請問廷長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9638.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9661.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
拘禁六十一個人凌虐的案件台灣發生過嗎有沒有發生過有沒有發生過我的印象中是沒有答案就是沒有還虐待四個人死亡有沒有發生過廳長沒有發生過夠凶殘吧夠可惡吧夠令人髮指吧來請教今年十月三層定宴判決什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9665.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9691.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
無極徒刑主嫌免死確判 逃死確定殺了4個人 官虐61個人詐騙4億 266人受害如此罪行滔天 令人罰則案件 現判8號出來以後免死確判了這第一個喔 我是用個案先來做比較喔那我在問 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9694.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9723.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那回到今天的1219的案子人家人民心裡怎麼想好當然了個案未必能夠完全比負對不對 廷長對不對那個個案的情節不是完全一致對啦這部分他事情居然致死的部分對沒關係對 這我也認同了兇殺1219兇犯就已經死掉了然後我再請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9724.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9752.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那我從另外一個我不從個案來講因為部長我告訴你我跟你質詢很多次了我剛剛看吳宗憲跟你質詢你們一直講的一點說沒有實質廢死原因很簡單就是剛剛廳長講的有三件事情有被判死刑對不對是三省定業嗎不是嗎被執行了嗎會被執行嗎目前不會因為三省都還沒定業根本沒到執行的階段更何況部長還有多少已經三省定業的還沒執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9754.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9777.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
36個啊36個對嘛那我再拉回來喔我想請教一下你知道2000年到2015年就是民進黨執政之前你知道每年平均有多少位殺人犯三審判死多少位部長知道嗎這邊我沒有統計資料警長知道嗎不知道我告訴你3.25位三個多啦三審判死 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9784.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9810.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那我想請教兩位喔現判八號是去年九月二十三號做出來嘛 對不對到現在一年三個月了一年三個月了請問多少三審判死的案件 多少庭長多少三審判死多少現在沒有 沒有嘛零嘛現在還在最高法院的有 還在你等到判了出來再告訴我就是零嘛就是零嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9813.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9834.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
之前3.25位 當時政黨輪替 政黨輪替後也就掉到0.25也很低了 就民進黨執政之後也很低了可是很低也是0.25一年0.25位 現在一年三個月0所以今天我要跟部長說 我舉個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9839.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9863.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
2022年新竹市正義輪胎案發生縱火死了多少人8個人這個兇嫌他欠債跟家庭吵架買汽油返家縱火母親妹妹七小大嫂子女喪生火海Eason判決的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9866.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9891.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
一審判什麼死刑嘛 對不對好 來啦你知道高院在審理的時候他改判什麼改判什麼無期徒刑啦高院是改判無期徒刑高院的理由是什麼他是有自首的問題其中一個理由他引述了憲判八號限縮死刑範圍的這個判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9894.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9921.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
他直接引用憲判八號耶在憲判八號沒有出來的時候還沒這個理由改判當然可能有別的理由啦剛剛部長也有講可是他直接又用了憲判八號作為改判免死的理由到了最高法院今年二月六號最後請問這位凶嫌的判決定讞的結果是什麼無期徒刑啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9923.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9952.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
免死確判嘛 對不對免死確判所以我回頭要告訴部長也告訴廳長實質廢死這件事情他講的是今天剝離了今天受害者的冤屈剝離了被害者家屬受的冤屈大幅的提高了死刑判決尤其是三審判死的難度我都還沒算執行耶我都還沒算執行耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9954.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9982.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以才稱之為實質廢實判決所以我真的拜託部長也拜託廳長人民的聲音為什麼那麼憤怒就是因為我們看到這個現在的我們的刑事司法體系尤其在大法官做出憲法8號判決之後非常嚴重的傾斜向加害者對加害者保護無微不至啊但是呢有看到受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9983.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10000.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
今天在地下枉死的冤苦嗎今天我看到受害者家屬日日夜夜走不出傷痛的悲區嗎所以我還是拜託部長因為剛剛看到您跟吳宗憲委員尤其針對實質廢止這個題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10003.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10020.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我覺得你蠻生氣的啦我不是針對十指會死喔他是說檢察官是幫被告求免死這一點我是非常的這個每一件都是檢案求死刑後來當然未必那個後來的結果沒有合乎到我們的一個求死刑的一個理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10022.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10046.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那個不一樣 剛才是說我們檢察是在辦公室吹冷氣警察在外賣命 檢察在吹冷氣檢察在幫被告求名詞這種我一定要嚴正的一個駁斥這個我必須要做一個聲明部長 我分兩段講你跟他兩段交鋒你後面是更生氣 看得出來前面講到實質廢死的時候你是表達強烈不認同 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10048.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10076.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
这个本来就是没有失职的会死的问题所以我在跟你讲我没有 我们要否定如果说有失职会死的话那我们为什么检到求死刑没见 这个没见的都是求死刑我没有说那一二审的法官也是在判死刑有三件不是 你就说真的有时候我都觉得你的角色搞得不太清楚我又不是在指责你我从头到尾都指责你吗不是嘛你检察官针对一些凶残的案件求出死刑我没有否定你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10077.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10104.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我沒有否定你啊但是我講的是不是事實廳長都想到現在為止一審判三個死刑嘛三個嘛沒錯吧一審二審一審二審加起來三個嘛那個高雄有兩件嘛一審二審加剛剛廳長講三個啊有多嗎三件三件嘛三件嘛所以沒有所以法院好像是要判一二審他國民法官也是判死刑沒關係啊我跟部長說交給社會公平嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10105.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10128.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我就跟你講2000年到2015年三審定驗判死就是3.25個啊以現判方法到現在一年三個月就是0個啊你跟我講一審二審判決 天堂都講了啊判了以後會執行嗎 不可能嘛沒有三審判之前都不可能執行嘛三審判了之後也不一定執行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10130.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10158.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
这一点部长你总不否认吧我想是事实问题没错吧没有不执行这个就还有一些救济程序在处理中就36个还没执行我也没否定你你执行了一个我跟你讲部长我今天在这边我够温和了没错吧为什么因为我也不想跟你再做很多的争执因为我只是要把具体事实平平静静的清清白白的清清楚楚的把它呈现出来就像社会公爵几个重点 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10159.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10182.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
第一個 憲判八號之前像鄭捷這個案子就會判死並執行第二個重點今天到現在為止確實憲判八號有宣判死刑就一審二審三個案子這三個案子都還沒到三審定讞第三個事實三審定讞憲判八號之後就是一個都沒有第四個事實2000年到2015年每年3.25個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10187.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10213.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
三省判死現在這過去一年三個月零個這第四個事實第五個事實現在有36個人死囚在年任內還沒執行這些都是鐵針針的事實叫不叫實質廢死判決不用羅志強說我想也不完全需要部長來說社會大眾來去公判啊讓我們的受害者家屬去想一想啊我們有沒有嚴重的傾向加害者謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10216.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10221.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好 謝謝羅委員我們就依照剛剛會議的程序我們現在先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10536.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10541.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
謝謝美麗的主席來有請我們法務部政部長司法院廳長現在高昇了嗎還沒快點了還要離廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10562.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10588.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
委員好我想首先要來就教政部長還有我們議廳長就是說上一次本席在這個地方質詢就有關於整個兄弟姊妹這個特留份要不要廢除這樣的一個問題那最近我看藝人的部分潮汐品的部分社會上也討論得沸沸揚揚那上次我本席在質詢的時候也一直在提出一個所謂的是對這個被繼承人 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10593.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10619.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
還沒死亡以前對他有特殊貢獻的部分當初的質詢我是認為說如果全部都按照血緣那現行制度這個繼承人他的一個因紀份他的特留份這個部分如果要去做一個廢除的話可能要去做更多的一個學者跟專家來做一個討論我看今天媒體好像說已經這個研究報告已經出來了嘛 部長對 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10621.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10632.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
報告出來以後可不可以請你講一下方向未來我們準備可能我們法務部或者司法院這個地方大家認為說怎麼樣的一個制度那對我們整個台灣社會可能這個現行制度的一個變革 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10639.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10668.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
可能未來這個社會比較能夠接受請問您的看法謝謝委員這個研究報告我還沒看過那個法律事務司他應該有這個資料那我想這個的確是剛才委員有關心到這個特留份 應濟份等等一些有關繼承的這個問題兄弟姊妹是不是貢獻度等等的這些的研究包括在日本或者其他的或者把特留份降低或者是廢止的這部分那我們現在就再研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10669.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10690.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那司法院這司法院我請教您的看我的想法就很簡單我的想法說本來大家都是靠血緣都是血緣 宅散 老伯 貴姓 孩子 配偶這看起來這是整個社會裡面的一個組成裡面大家覺得好像是言之成理那你把兄弟姊妹的特留份把它給廢除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10691.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10696.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那我們如果再去創設非繼承人 非繼承人就是都一堆喔非繼承人到時候 如果有留一堆英籍財產在那個地方那很多人會講說 我也跟他很好耶 在新義正我都陪他走路 跟他在那裡泡茶 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10710.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10737.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
生日穿得不好的時候我都這樣穿一件衣服我都穿去公園運動到時候如果碰到一個類似像這樣的案件的話會不會有好多人來做這樣的一個主張制度的一個變革本來就是要好好的去做一個思考而且本席上次還有一點擔心就是說如果把兄弟姐妹的特留份把它給廢除掉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10738.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10761.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好像是宣告過去家庭的一個組成裡面兄弟姊妹這樣的一個緊密的一個結合的一個關係本來就疏離那好像是在對外宣示兄弟姊妹其實在整個家庭的一個組成裡面它變成那麼的不重要這也是本行當初擔心的一個地方那現在委託學者專家的一個研究報告出來我不曉得司法院這邊的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10763.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10783.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
委員很抱歉 因為我是刑事廳 所以民事的部分都通啦 刑事廳這條沒通法律都一通百通我只能根據之前我們司法院出具的書面報告認為說民團在倡議兄弟姐妹的特留份的部分我們司法院是沒有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10784.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10787.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
你們沒有不同的意見所以不然我們現在如果修法的時候你要看我知道你們內部還會再去做一個討論這個問題本來就是可以討論這個問題也沒有什麼在這個地方會吵架大家好像攻防得很劇烈 不會只是說社會各個層面裡面要去關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10804.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10825.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
百年的一個制度的一個變革本來對社會會有衝擊你要用一套制度去把社會每一個個案去把它給含設進來確實是不容易但是我本席的一個建議就是說我比較擔心的是說一個家的一個組成那如果去把兄弟姊妹的特留份 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10825.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10840.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
你說把它給完全都給廢除掉的話是不是會動搖整個一個家庭的一個概念也許有些人覺得這個不重要的這也沒關係這個社會本來就是社會會不斷地去演變但只是說一個制度的一個變革裡面應該是更細緻再來你們就一定要提出版本你會提出來這個謝謝委員他那個事實上他那個研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10850.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10864.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
報告是有七大的修法的一個建議啦當然有包括委員關心的那一部分那其實七大建議包括配合居住權貢獻分的這部分還有特留份遺產分割前金錢存款債權的行使死後認領印記份價額請求權 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10866.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10890.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
等等還有自書遺囑那這部分我們剛收到這個研究的一個成果報告那我想我們會把它當作納入我們一個修法的一個重要的一個參考那明年明年初應該會過這個年漸漸十二月再幾天就明年就會盡快的啟動修法的程序對啦因為最後的過年的最後的一天本席到也認為說創設這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10892.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10907.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
有對於被繼承人他的一個特殊的一個貢獻那因為這樣子而取得部分的一個遺產這個我也認為合理啦那另外那個司法院請回我要再來今天那個范寶協會的執行長有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10908.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10928.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我想要特別來請教一下部長的就是說前陣子我看這個無差別的一個攻擊的一個悲劇也換取個人很大的一個這個一個危機的一個意識但是其實要說關注的新聞在草上的都只是兇手但是受害者跟他的家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10929.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10943.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
是在悲劇發生的時候他們最痛我們更應該去聚焦的是說國家的手到底有沒有伸進來那國家其實他也有溫度的一面啦環保協會在第一線第一時間去介入像譬如說一路相伴專員保護的志工那及時時間的一個救援在第一時間裡面還有很多專業的培行像律師同步去投入那還有實質的一些補償協助申請遺囑 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10959.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10985.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
補償金180萬那我要問的就是說要問的就是說那其實這在中央來看的話好像是我們剛好有行政院這個院裡面中央會去做一個督導嘛那各地方裡面我就比較擔心了我就比較擔心我們這個其實這個這個制度這個制度我們也看到了中央的決心我們看見了但比較擔心的是地方就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10986.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11003.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
本法第18條要求地方政府去召開聯繫會議共同來推動業務我請執行長上來的意思就是說你們在地方上有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困難需要部長跟你們幫忙協助的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11006.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11011.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
謝謝委員的推詢那跟委員報告所以我們現在已經依法每年會定期召開的聯繫會議那在未來呢我們也會提高這個會議的頻率來透過會議對於案件的一個處遇的一個機制以及服務的模式來進行延伸那同時呢我們也會加強我們同仁對於這個地方政府可以提供的資源的一個熟悉度讓這個資源能夠更及時的對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11035.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11042.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
然後有效的運用我們也會努力建立這個更完善、更成熟的一個跨單位橫向聯繫的工作模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11043.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11072.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我比較擔心的就是說我為什麼在講說地方的部分我們比較擔心就是說地方政府現在認為他只是協助的角色他認為你會感受到就是說這個會不會是我們一個地方單位對服務的一個不熟悉缺乏這樣保護的一個經驗就是說他的權責是一個模糊的他認為我只是一個協助的角色態度會不一樣那你這個位階不對等 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11072.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11075.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
就是你範保分會的位階會比較低你很難去有效的整合地方的一個局處像比如說開個會他認為我派個志工來那我到了整個議場裡面他們能夠扮演發揮的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11089.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11112.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我會覺得地方這樣子就比較可惜有沒有可能我們法務部就是我們法務部這個地方你就從中央帶頭你打通地方執行的最後一體路你像譬如法務部跟各目的世界主管機關應該主動建立一個合作的機制由上而下去下達指令給縣市應對的譬如說衛生局 勞動局跟社會局 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11114.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11122.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你的指令如果不明確 地方分要怎麼進去我來我就 地方政府也覺得是 也覺得是協助而已執行長難道你們沒有發現這樣的一個現象嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11129.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11146.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
跟委員報告 事實上現在不是列席現在我們在法務部有督導犯保協會訂定犯罪被害人權益保障業務聯繫會議實際要點有保留四個常委常任委員的席次在各分會裡面有設證 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11147.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11169.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
警政 衛政 勞政那個都是他們就由地方政府這四個單位派他們的主管過來參與這個聯繫會議的一個開會那這個也是結合社會安全網的一個重要的機制那另外事實上我們其實除了這樣我們在檢查體系我們在峰會那個地檢署都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11171.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11196.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
會參與檢察長或者是聯席會議的一個主持會做這樣法務部當然委員的關心這部分其實法務部是當他們最後的一個後盾這包括預算人力或者是法規這部分有什麼問題我們會再做隨時的一個檢討再加強這些犯保的分會的再服務這些犯罪被害人的這些的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11197.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11225.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
部長 其實我的主要的一個目的焦點就一個我們修法以後地方政府的角色已經不一樣了對 的確是不一樣我們更應該讓地方政府來共同承擔這樣的一個責任這個必須要我們保護部我們再來加強好不好主席 不好意思最後我要再請教一下我看這一次這一次的一個無差別攻擊的事件大家在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11226.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11228.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
說這個細胞簡訊要怎麼發的一個問題那這個其實涉及到一方你說細胞簡訊要不要發當然要謹慎兩難你隨便發大家覺得說反而會造成恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11242.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11247.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
可是呢 你過度謹慎又變成拖延那也許去擔心你說發佈簡訊就引起恐慌那我們更擔心的是說 民眾如果都是狀況外那才是真的叫做恐慌啊我看台北市政府他現在也那個指引也做出來了嘛那26號也送我們那個內政部了劉正博有來嗎 你們有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11264.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11278.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
一般我們天然災害當然都是消防署那現在剛好你的法令還不夠齊全的時候那當然地方政府他就要創設一些指引那我想可能就因應這個跨年來的跨年你接下來還有一些像譬如說運動賽事你還有春節 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11281.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11298.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
很多啊 五花八門啊那我比較擔心的是說我們全國有沒有辦法制定一個標準這就是法務部我叫不定站在這裡比較不好意思部長先請回警政署都沒有派人嗎今天今天不是在談這個嗎今天有警政署是吧 好不好一分鐘我都主席都已經同意我了我的簡單的因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11302.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11305.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
中央如果沒有一個全國的一個指引外界會認為說你的卡車有夠慢人家地方政府都動起來了全國的標準我是覺得很重要尤其你看這個雙北甚至到那個季節你說一個兇手在捷運裡面他可能犯案的地點可能在新北 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11327.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11346.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
一下子三十幾分鐘以後就跑到台北市來了你說這個地方到底要不要發你說跑掉就好了不是如果是在萬一又是在捷運上你總不可能台北發新北沒發問題是你還沒有去掌握他到底人在什麼地方的時候這個部分會造成恐慌那跨區的部分我們如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11350.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11359.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
你內政部跟警政署去負起責任制定一個國家級的一個方案你總要整合出一個全國性的一個跨區發布的指引好不好 請說明謝謝委員那這個有關那個告警細胞這個部分它是要報到那個災防一個科技中心來做一個在整合那這個部分我們有在做反應可能會就它的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11378.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11385.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
發佈的一個時間 地點 相關的條件再做一個審慎的一個我現在意思就是台北市人家已經送了這算積極嘛 捕獲王嘛 這是好事嘛那你總要有一個全國性的啊各縣市都有可能我們不談各縣 談六都就好啦近近而已啊 很有可能啊像在陶川很有可能啊那你怎麼樣有一個讓老百姓覺得說我就有政府在 我在怕什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11408.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11425.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
如果是地方政府的首長那我要請問你的指引是什麼台北市有啦新北市要不要有 桃園市要不要有你總是要去設定一個比較國家級的方案你像譬如說那個標準到底是什麼你現在說有立即危險的趕快發什麼叫立即危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11429.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11451.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
你不可以只求 你要想一下好不好 我們態度也不要讓人家感覺是拖延啦 這樣也不好的這個 我認為這個時間確實很難定 我都很清楚那就是因為很難定那地方政府把你問題丟出來啦中央你總是要做一個統合嘛那整合出一個全國性的跨區域的這樣的一個支援我覺得很合理 趕快 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11452.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11474.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
包圍 因為這一個部分行政院已經有在做研議了相關部會都有在討論今天下午也會開會針對這個問題有做討論OK 那就盡數了好不好這個是國人的一個保障他的一個安全尤其是碰到這樣的一個緊急大家覺得危險的時候心裡頭比較安心好不好好 謝謝謝委員是 謝謝莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11485.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11488.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
好 我們現在請翁曉琳委員質詢好 謝謝主席這邊首先先有請司法院的李廳長還有書記廳的廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11505.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11527.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
好 李廷長好這次大法官作出五人判決我想也引起了全社會的嘩然我首先想請教因為廷長你之前本來就是刑事庭的法官我想請問一下在一般你們做你們在合議庭裡面如果說法官有人拒絕評議的時候你們會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11530.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11548.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
根據我們的經驗沒有發生這樣的事情如果有人拒絕評議你們會怎麼樣案子會一直擱著嗎是不是案子會被擱著等到有法官或者說是在換另外一個法官的時候加入評議你們才會開始審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11551.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11575.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們一直沒有這樣的經驗從來沒有過這樣的經驗是民聽法官也沒有應該是這個全中是您是民聽法官嗎我之前是辦理民視事務那也跟委員說明在我的審判經驗中我沒有遇過和議庭的法官拒絕參與評議的情形所以在你們規則裡面沒有沒有針對如果說有法官拒絕評議的時候怎麼處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11581.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11603.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
因為在一般的法院裡面其實我們會有因為一般的法院的法官人員會比較充裕假設 我說假設如果真的遇到有法官持續的拒絕參與評議那可能在必要的情形下會去變動相關的事物分配或者是依照代理表 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11604.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11621.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
換別的法官來參與評議嘛對不對也就是你們還是要達到全部的法官都要這個一起參與評議才可以做成裁判才可以做成判決對不對按照你們現在的做法不就是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11622.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11641.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
委員在一般的法院法官緣額充足的情形但是憲法法庭沒有這樣子的狀況憲法法庭的大法官沒有其他沒有代理的問題所以要等到他補足了之後才開始審議這是最簡單不過的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11648.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11674.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
今天五位大法官做出的判決它就是明顯違反了不管是舊制或新制的限訴法的規定它就是一個違法的組成然後又做成了這個判決請問這兩位法官就是如果在一般的實務法事務上這個裁判如果說是違反這個法定的組織程序這個裁判是怎麼樣是不是自恥當仁無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11677.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11689.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們去講一般的法理如果是在一般法院部分是不會發生這樣的事情沒有啦 如果發生了呢這叫組織不合法的問題那可能就被上訴審就撤銷掉了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11693.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11708.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以撤銷就代表什麼 就還是違法違法無效的判決才會被撤銷因為組織不合法而被撤銷接下來我想請問針對大法官組織不合法所作成的判決誰來約束 誰來制衡違憲違法的大法官現在我們有沒有這個機制不太適合回答這個是憲法法庭的獨立的運作現在我們有沒有這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11725.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11754.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們憲法訴訟法裡面有沒有這樣規定針對違法違憲大法官違反這個組織法定程序所做出來的判決我們現在有沒有任何究竟程序我想跟您說明現在沒有一個大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決是組織不合法好很好也所以從我們行憲我們大法官會議組成以來到現在從來沒有出現過任何一例的五人判決對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11756.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11771.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我沒說錯吧從來沒有過在過去我們的大法官會議甚至還要達到四分之三或是三分之二的門檻才可以這個開始這個會議組成到開始評議所以提高大法官人數的門檻這個並沒有違法也沒有違憲在過去就是這麼做而且實施了非常長的一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11786.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11812.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
今天這五位大法官真的很勇敢很有勇氣他創了舉世無雙的案例我們現在看到從來沒有一個什麼憲法法院的會出現有在大法官明顯不足的情況之下讓自己跳下來做判決而且還可以說這個拒絕評議拒絕參與評議的法官他們不合群 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11813.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11832.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
所以排除异己我们五个人自己做就好了接下来这五个大法官如果说有两个人认为说我今天这个参与我也不想参与平抑或是我持反对意见好没关系我也排除这样三个大法官然后过半数一个大法官就可以做成判决了我在这里想要告诉大家的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11838.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11862.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們中華民國的憲法法庭真的是鬧了全世界最大的笑話做了最荒謬的事情我都不知道未來其他的憲法法院德國 日本 法國等等這些憲法法庭或他們憲法委員會來台灣參訪的時候你們要怎麼去講這個事情丟臉至極好 請回 兩位請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11864.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11890.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那麼今天吳士堯委員在他質詢的時候又躍提 跳題然後在批評我們今天所提出的《政務人員法》草案還有批評我提的《公投法》的修法以及昨天才提案的修憲案有關於要恢復人民有權可以提案罷免總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11893.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11916.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我時常懷疑就是我們這群民進黨的委員們他們到底了不了解什麼叫權力分立立法委員的職權它的功能在哪裡是要去制衡行政權就要去監督行政部門今天我們的立法院裡面我們看到民進黨委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11918.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11939.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
他們不僅沒有好好的去監督行政院為什麼不依法編列預算為什麼不依法執行反而處處在包庇行政權這是我感到非常遺憾而且也不齒的地方到底誰不事任 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11941.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11956.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
大家看得很清楚民進黨的委員到現在為止他們有沒有針對我們的相關的法案有提出對岸行政機關也是消極完全不提對岸接下來我要請全序部還有考試院是 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11965.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11991.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
秘書長在你們的報告裡面也講得很清楚從民國84年立法院作出決議要求考試院要提出相關的政務人員法草案之後從87年到101年你們曾經五度提案108年的時候其實權敘部自己也有再提了一次案只是說到了考試院然後後來也許找了行政院一起會商之後就沒有再提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11992.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12012.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
過去認為政務人員法的主管機關考試院很有GAS擔當下來依據憲法的規定就是由考試院可以來作為政務人員法的主管機關政務人員的退府條例也是你們定的是什麼原因造成你們現在的立場大轉彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12014.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12030.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
各位報告其實過去您講那個以前那一段立法院的決議是大概30年前民國84年蠻久一段時間以前那當時考試院應該是尊重立法院的這個決議所以就開始進行這個工作那108年呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12032.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12044.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那108年的部分當然就是說我們內部在討論以前有這個提案後來沒有一直沒有審過那所以全區部這邊要不要續推這個工作那在院裡面討論的時候因為我們一定要徵求行政院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12045.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12065.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那这个时候跟行政院这边就开始出现权权上的区分请问一下当时行政院的意见是谁的意见当时代表是谁 行政院主要是人事总署人事总署当时人事长是谁人事长是就是现在的师部长所以师部长你当时在108年的时候你反对全序部的提案那你现在当全序部长的时候你当然自然而然也反对这个提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12066.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12078.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
變成說整個政務人員法沒有辦法推進看起來關鍵也是在施部長您身上也不只這樣因為你從之前你就反對到現在你也反對好 那接下來請教一下我想請那個蘇人事長好 人事長那個施部長認為考試院不適合擔任政務人員法的主管機關所以人事總處要扛下這個責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12096.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12122.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
事實上 施部長也不是說他不適合沒有 我現在只問你你要不要扛下這個責任因為這個 因為人事行政總處願不願意擔任政務人員法的主管機關我們一切尊重大院的決定啊好 很好好 謝謝任市長好本期要強調的是這個法勢在必行我們現在有三個委員分明提出來了就像我剛剛之前一開始在 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12124.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12148.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這個法案大體說明的時候有講我們現在各行各業都有專法唯獨政務人員法沒有專法政務官掌握多少的行政資源擁有多大的權利他的行為竟然可以不受規範更何況在我本席所提的政務人員法草案裡面我不是只有去約束限制政務官的行為我甚至還保障他的權利這些難道不應該定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12153.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12177.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
今天權序部失職人事行政總處也是怠惰看到我們這些法案早就提出來了吳委員的法案吳宗憲委員的法案在今年的6月就已經審查過到現在為止你們沒有任何動作沒有提出任何的對案之後我們通過了然後你們又說這都是立法委員提的案然後你們再去申請釋憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12180.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12193.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我真的很看不下去現在我們行政機關的這樣一個態度尤其是考試院請你們回去想想當時五權分立的國父創立五權憲法對考試院有多大的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12199.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12221.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
結果你們現在完全鬆手一攤完全就是不管只管文官 事務官對於真正擁有權力的政務人員你們卻擺爛各位很棒 條件憲法實現上的確設計還是作為文官法庭的主管接下來我要再請教監察院的兩位部長可以請回請教監察院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12226.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12255.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
請問現在公職人員利益衝突迴避法裡面誰是主管機關哪個機關是主管機關公職人員利益公務人員利益衝突迴避法本院財產承包處是主政的機關財法負責財法簡單來說可能就是事件草原跟法務部反正你們當時推來推去那麼現在的這個利益衝突法有沒有處罰罰款的規定有有吧然後有沒有彈劾的規定可以送懲戒的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12257.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12285.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
对 如果认为说有缺失有吗 所以在一个法律里面同时出现有行政法 有惩戒法这并不冲突嘛不过要跟委员报告就是说因为在执行的层面上面我们常常会主管机关的解释跟我们在裁罚执行的时候常常会有一些争议所以我们才会在书面意见表达说如果可以的话这个部分其实是由主管机关来负责行政调查之后做出裁罚这样的可能权责相符会是比较好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12286.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12310.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這個部分我們之後可以再討論但是我只是要講就是說是在現行的法規裡面並不是說沒有這樣子的一個情況最後我可能最後一個問題我想請教法務部有關於隨機殺人的問題因為今天其實在之前的委員都已經有提到了所以我在這裡我就不重複我現在只是想要請教法務部的就是說有關於隨機殺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12313.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12317.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
殺人罪我們殺人罪有多久沒有修了殺人罪最近有修增加那個虐殺幼童的那一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12334.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12354.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
除了越炸越痛之外對於像這種隨機殺人的犯罪行為過去到現在法務部從來沒有研擬要怎麼樣來規範相關的犯罪行為嗎我們要不要修殺人罪或者是說在殘害人群自罪條例裡面是不是也應該要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12355.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12375.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這個有關你委員關心這個有殘害人群自罪條例有相關的規定那另外但是它有針對像這種只是因為它是個殘害人群它是針對特定的團體但是對於不特定的多數人呢它這部分其實可以用刑法57條來做良形的一個重要的所以只是良形但是回到我剛剛講的犯罪構成要件的部分其實也要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12377.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12404.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我們看到德國法國等等這些國家他們其實對於殺人罪的犯罪構成要件甚至把這種對於不特定的多數人以危險的方式去殺害殺人的這樣的這個犯罪構成要件他們都寫定在明定在這個殺人罪裡面所以本期的建議就是說希望你們能夠去好好的研議檢討隨機殺人就無差別殺人要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12405.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12432.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
定定獨立的犯罪的罪名或者是說我們現在修正殺人罪或者是殘害人群治罪條例裡面的部分的這些這個犯罪的這個犯罪過程要件其實是可以再去針對我們剛剛講的無差別殺人的這樣的行為類型去做更具體的規範我覺得我們法務部不要怠惰好不好你們每年的立法計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12434.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12457.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
應該把這些都要納入我們期待看到你們下個會期的立法計畫可以把這個相關的殺人罪還有剛剛講差案人權治罪條例等等的規定都可以併入考量積極的去提出相關的這個修法不要每次都是跑在我們立法委員後面好嗎請你們要去進行檢討以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12462.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12463.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好 謝謝翁曉琳委員我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間就繼續進行到所有登記發言委員都詢答結束為止接下來我們請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12489.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12504.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好謝謝主席我先請法務部長還有我們警政署今天有保安組副組長以及我們國土安全辦公室代表請警衛官員到備詢台 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12508.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12514.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我先請教部長有關於這次北捷殺人事件現在檢調在偵辦中在電腦硬碟現在要把它解密的部分現在是不是碰到非常大的一個困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12526.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12549.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
好像這個根據媒體報導到目前為止這個嫌犯張文他的電腦硬碟到現在都解不開是不是碰到這樣的一個瓶頸這部分是警方在做一個處理那這邊我想這個是技術性的問題那技術性是不是可以請警政署來那要不要請警政署來說明一下那個報告委員這個部分我們刑局還在做努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12554.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12581.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
還在做努力因為根據媒體的報導說這個硬碟因為它的這個而且連微軟都好像幫不上忙所以如果要解開甚至有說要到100年所以我想請教的是如果它到現在為止電腦硬碟都一直解不開的話會不會對我們接下來整個的這個偵辦造成了什麼樣的困難部長還是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12583.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12595.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那我想這個是一個當然我們希望能夠解開但是因為屬於這個數位的一個設備這部分的確有它的相當高的一個技術的門檻那這邊我想在整個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12596.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12615.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
把它解開這部分當然可以充實一些的譬如說購買一些軟體設備那這部分屬於技術性基本上我們都是由警方或刑事局在做一個不過這個部分我想可能未來它甚至未來我們包含打炸還有一些那種重大犯罪恐怕也會碰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12616.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12636.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那另外我請教一下警政署因為有張文他跳下來他死亡大家一直在猜測他到底是失足還是跳樓到目前為止我們可以確定嗎他到底是失足還是跳樓因為嫌犯已經死亡所以這個動機的部分還要做一個查證還是沒有辦法確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12638.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12652.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以也是不排除如果他今天其實他並不是要這個自殺的行為而是屍主死亡的話那如果他人還活著也不排除有更進一步的這些恐怖的攻擊對不對這個部分我們沒辦法做臆測 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12657.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12674.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
其實到底他的動機我覺得應該還是要把它搞清楚另外我請教一下剛剛莊瑞雄委員也特別提到因為今天就是跨年我們整個的全國的警力達到上萬人要怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12677.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12698.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
維持相關的治安剛才特別提到細胞簡訊的部分台北市已經確定今天會發出細胞簡訊當然我的意思說它不一定一定會發它有兩個狀況第一個狀況就是出現重大治安事件譬如說像北捷這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12699.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12727.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那第二个他这次再增加了一个就是如果人潮特别拥挤也就是如果他出现子暴的现象因为在过去国外也有发生像那个前几年韩国有理财院的踩踏事件所以他今天呢已经确定说如果发生这两个状况的话他们会发出细胞简讯那我想请问一下到目前为止我们所警政署或者我们那个 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12729.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12741.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
國土安全辦公室所掌握的是只有台北市已經有這樣的準備還是說其他縣市也有跟我們做申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12743.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12767.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
有人能回答嗎包委員 目前我們這邊了解是台北市有提出一個申請書到災防科技中心去準備除了台北市還有沒有其他縣市目前我了解是台北市只有台北市但是今年晚上很多縣市都會有跨年活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12768.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12795.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那么我有注意到虽然我们的内政部长我们刘士芳针对细胞检讯他有所保留可是我们的政务委员纪连城他肯定就是说他认为如果有细胞检讯可以降低可能发生的这些伤亡这些后果那所以我想请问一下我们内政部现在态度到底是怎样如果说 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12796.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12823.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
劉士芳的意思就好像說他還擔心會造成什麼什麼的後遺症但是紀連城政務委員又肯定所以現在不是劉士芳跟蔣萬安不同調現在變成劉士芳跟紀連城也不同調那我請問一下根據你們的專業或是你們的研判這個細胞簡訊到底可不可以讓各縣市政府或中央來做一個統一性的規範呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12825.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12844.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
包委員 那個目前的規定來說的話各縣市政府它是可以提出申請書核備以後它就可以應用這個目前規定是這樣但是就是要跟災防的一個科技中心去做備查去做申請 對自己怎麼應用 應用的條件如何這個可能要再思考這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12845.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12867.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我覺得你們要盡快啦其實最 就是今天晚上如果要做的話就是今天晚上其實你們已經一直在拖一直拖可能下一次的機會可能就是在那個就是在燈會啦 對不對所以我覺得我們還是有很多大型的活動我覺得這個動作要快好 那接下來我想請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12869.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12888.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
因為最近呢這個行政院送出了社違法的修法這裡面特別強調了如果有仇恨性的言論這裡面甚至包含這個網路上還要求這個網站要給他下架那當然很多的這些網站的經營者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12889.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12897.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
很困擾什麼樣叫做仇恨性言論我現在整理出這幾個這一陣子以來譬如說昨天中國的軍演我們就看到網紅一個網紅徐碧她就發文說希望砲彈可以不小心打到桃園的中國國民黨黨部讓他解釋一下為何他們阻擋軍購案 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12917.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12936.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
像這樣子 夠不夠成仇恨式的言論跟委員報告齁 因為這個仇恨 所謂這部分的修法的這部分齁那個這個不是 這是內政部主管的話對那這我沒辦法幫 我是尊重內政部的修法的提案啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12937.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12946.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以在行政院的時候你們包含你們根本都完全沒有任何的質疑說這樣子的修法它有什麼樣的問題有沒有限制言論自由問題或者難以執行的問題而且社會法過去本來就已經受到很多的質疑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12960.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12975.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以你們法務部完全沒有意見我這邊看到有這麼多這麼多的言論或者是這樣的貼文什麼叫做仇恨性言論好 譬如說這個我們常常提到那個檢察官的照片紮上絕痕你們立刻檢察官立刻偵辦所以認為這個是仇恨性的言論貼文訊息那同樣的把我們國民黨所有的立委來放一個靈堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12988.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12991.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這樣子一個粉專放沒事啊這樣就沒事啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12993.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13020.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
法务部不觉得这样的修法有问题这个刚才委员有提到就是仇视检察官那一部分事实上他还是用恐吓的已经达到恐吓的一个要件所以这部分就依法来处理那至于仇恨性的言论这部分那这部分因为这个是属于立法内政部的一个修法提案那这部分还没有相关的内政部正好保安组也在这里来我要讲就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13021.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13048.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這次這個社違法的提出來有很多人是認為就是當時的這個就是有關於網路仲介法的一個這個借師還魂因為針對就是說只要是你們認為是有這個仇恨式的言論影響國人之團結 你看到沒有這麼這麼泛泛 這麼就是形而上的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13049.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13067.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
一個文字 什麼恐怖主義啦境外勢力的不當訴求對國安影響甚巨的話 什麼叭啦叭啦一大堆就可以要求在這個網路上要求他們把它這樣的言論給下架所以有很多人認為這是不是一種網路的箝制這種是一個網路言論的一個箝制什麼叫做仇恨性言論 我剛才舉了很多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13076.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13100.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
同樣類似的事情對檢察官他認為造成恐嚇那對於這個幫這個民意代表立法委員擺靈堂這不叫恐嚇我們會不會心生恐懼對不對一般人你給他擺一個這樣子放在那邊 靈堂在那邊他會不會心生恐懼所以立法委員不應該心生恐懼這種都很多的就是這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13101.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13131.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
非常非常的我覺得非常的抽象另外我們也注意到包含了時代力量時代力量他絕對不是藍白陣營時代力量他也認為說你仇恨跟骨髓戰爭的言論是要管但是用社為法來管就是很不適當另外我們台灣警察工作潛意推動協會也認為社為法這樣子的修法事實上是很粗糙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13132.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13150.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那我在這邊要特別提出來其實過去我要特別講因為社委法沒有錯剛才那個部長講的它不經過法院我們如果羈押現在我們來講我們其實在司法法制委員會談了很多次羈押的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13151.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13164.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
可是呢現在的社委法不需要經過法院就直接給你拘獄三天讓你關三天或者讓你罰三萬所以這些部分會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13166.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13183.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
變成一個行政上的濫權我提出一個統計資料因為我們在涉違法其實以過去幾年來警察機關的移送警察機關認為他違反涉違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13184.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13200.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
然後移送到法院但是法院不罰的比例事實上是非常非常的高的我們如果根據過去幾年來這樣子包含今年不罰的比例達到八成 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13202.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13216.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
達到八成過去監察委員也特別針對那個案子就是針對當時的這個台大的教授蘇鴻達的案件就是你們去把他移送移送到這個法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13220.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13231.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
當時監察委員也提出就是有關於這個以所謂的散佈謠言就基於涉違法的散佈謠言去移送事實上也有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13234.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13250.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
違反人權以及沒有保障言論自由所以社會法沒有去檢討去做修正反而繼續的擴權在這次行政院送過來的其實是繼續的擴權而這樣的擴權你們現在才惡補你們現在才在惡補嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13261.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13274.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這麼重大的案子不管是保安組也不清楚嗎麻煩您大聲一點這個部分是由我們刑事局來主政的所以我們請刑事局來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13285.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13302.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那個社會法的部分還是要經過那個行政法院麻煩您 因為您可能戴口罩 請您稍微戴沒有關係那個社會法的部分還是要經過那個行政法院經過法院好 經過法院 但是布法的比例很高啊 我剛剛不講嗎是不是很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13307.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13315.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那到底是我們前端大家在白忙一場還是法院它的那個判決有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13317.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13340.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
到底是前面的移送太腐爛還是法院的判決有問題在我前面第一個就特別講到今天早上也有討論到就是有在網路上詢問到我們的監察院長陳菊有事嗎 一樣被移送被移送之後法院認為這根本沒有違法的問題是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13343.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13373.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那我想請問一下那你這個拘役是需要通過法院嗎才能夠拘役嗎拘役有拘留是不是需要拘留所以如果你們要處三日以下之拘留或者新台幣三萬以下的罰還是不是要經過法院的判決拘役的需要 罰還的不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13375.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13402.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對不起 你大聲一點居易的需要要經過行政法院居易的這個部分就是居易的部分 那罰款呢這個不需要罰款不需要嘛 對不對所以我個人認為因為當然這個是行政院送出那其實最近已經引起非常多的質疑有很多 我要講的是在這個部分其實我看到已經不是只是你說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13404.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13427.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這個藍白陣營或者什麼綠的陣營其實包含綠的陣營也已經有人去提出這些種種的相關的疑慮所以到時候在當然立法院的部分我們會嚴格的審查所以我覺得內政部也應該採納雅言我覺得為什麼會行政院可以這樣的莫名其妙匆匆忙忙的就送出這樣的這個設違法的修正我個人也覺得有點不可思議好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13432.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13441.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
但是我覺得這一部分既然引起大家的疑慮還有很多的討論那我們就應該去好好的去嚴格的審查以上好 謝謝王紅衛委員接下來我們請陳冠廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13464.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13465.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
最先我們先請部長 阿烏部部長請鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13474.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13497.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
委員好 部長好 部長這一次我們從1219的這個張文的案件來去檢視雖然說張嫻已經死亡 那已經進入相關的程序不過這個案件讓我們思考到一個良形架構上面的問題所以想請教部長 在我們的刑法或者是良形的實務上法官他們在良形的時候會參考他的犯罪動機 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13498.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13521.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
但是會有一個弔詭的現象如果是因為仇殺 如果是因為情殺或者是因為財務的關係有一個明確的可非難的動機的話那這時候良心他可能會被認為是惡性重大來去加重可是如果在無差別殺人的話因為被害人是隨機的動機甚至可能是模糊的還不確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13522.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13548.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
甚至可能會用精神不穩或沒有針對性而導致有可能判決比較輕換句話說現在現行的架構之下有一種可能就是他如果去謀殺一個有仇恨的人可能會比殺害一個素不相似的路人判得更重有這樣的可能性可能這個部分在一般民眾的這種情感上比較沒有辦法去認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13550.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13574.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
韓國的大法院的兩行委員會它的做法是不太一樣的我請部長可以參考一下他們把殺人罪依據動機它分五種類型其中第三類的類型就是我們剛才提到因受譴責動機之殺人所以就是我們剛才提到的仇殺 情殺或者是未裁殺人另外有第五種類型就是極端漠視人命之殺人專門針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13576.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13594.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
無差別攻擊這種不特定多數人的下手的犯罪所以第五類型的良型的區分跟第三類型是把它分開的而且同樣屬於最嚴重的等級五個類型我們簡單講就是第一個就是情有可原 可動盡殺人例如長期受虐的反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13595.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13621.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
第二種類型是一般動機之殺人例如家庭糾紛 嫉妒第三類型是因受譴責動機之殺人例如剛才提到的為財 為組織利益第四類型是結合其他重罪之殺人跟我提到的第五類型極端漠視人民之殺人所以韓國的制度設計是認為說針對不特定多數人的攻擊本身就是一個極惡的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13621.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13641.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
光是這種漠視人民的態度本身就足夠成為加重量刑的理由所以想請問部長針對這個部分你的看法是什麼樣就是這個問題我們法務部是不是有相關的研究或者說我們現行的架構之下無差別殺人會不會因為缺乏明確的可非難動機在量刑上面沒有得到適當的評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13642.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13659.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
謝謝委員的指導我想這個量刑是屬於司法院的職長因為它是判決的量刑法務部當然我們會要求檢察官依照相關的規定譬如說我們有一個提示檢查運用求刑 因刑注意四項檢察機關辦理刑事訴訟法因刑注意四項第101條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13661.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13687.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
第125條以及檢察機關辦理重大刑事案件注意事項第7條的規定 具體求刑我想這個是針對像委員關心的像那些惡性重大或者嚴重妨礙社會治安的像這種隨機殺人這種案件我想這部分我們會再檢討在這些求刑的這部分來做更加的細緻的劃分這部分剛才委員有提到說到底隨機殺人比較可惡還是仇殺比較可惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13689.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13701.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這個可能要見解不同我們但是以製造社會的恐慌的這邊來講那個隨機殺人的確是會引起比較大的嚴重危害影響社會治安這部分我們會更精緻的來做一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13702.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13726.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
謝謝部長因為部長我們剛才講到的都是一個是行為樣態那跟動機樣態不太一樣那韓國的方法當然是會把動機的樣態放進去那當然這一部分可能跟這個法務部或者是跟司法院當然各自有各自執掌的範圍那剛才部長是說在你們可以直屬的這種檢查體系下面來去具體求選那在司法院的部分我們是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13726.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13736.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
司法院能夠來去考量到韓國的司法院今天有來不好意思 今天有來不好意思 麻煩也請司法院 對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13741.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13766.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
廷長剛才部長有就他們的體系部分在求刑方面我們是希望說可以從行為樣態考量到動機類型在法務部之外 司法院的看法是怎麼樣在司法院有關於辦理刑事案件量刑的審酌事項裡面我們已經把被害人的多寡被害人的損害程度或是對治安有重大影響部分當成一個重重量刑的因子 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13766.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13793.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那我再可以舉一個例子在憲判八裡面的理由裡面曾經提到一個歷史什麼叫做情節罪 嚴重之罪它包括了無差別性的殺人它就歷史的這個就是一個沒有動機的無差別性的殺人這一個是屬於最嚴重情節最嚴重之罪的一個歷史情形所以他剛剛委員所指教的說因為仇殺 那當然是一個謀殺那個當然是情節嚴重但是如果是無差別性他也是把它當成一個情節嚴重之罪你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13795.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13799.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
謝謝 謝謝廷長那接下來我們請這個警政署我們簡單的快速來針對異常犯罪的統計的政策規劃我們快速來請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13813.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13829.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
主長好主長我們針對這個韓國的刑事政策研究院他們在2004年初2023年底他有發了一個研究報告他是針對異常動機犯罪進行這個類型化的分析一樣他分成三類型第一個是社會不滿型占16.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13831.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13855.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
犯罪者是對社會是有敵意憂鬱的狀態第二種是持續憤怒型是46%但是犯罪者容易誤解他人在憤怒中犯案其中40%有6次以上的前科所以這是數字從數字上面來去做政策的研擬第三種是精神障礙大概是37.5%這個分類的意思就是說我們不同類型需要不同的預防的策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13856.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13871.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
如果像是社會不滿行我們可能就要用資源政策透過社區外展把這些人拉回社會持續Funding就是有犯罪前科要參考英國的多機關公共保護安排我想請教一下我們現在的相關的統計數據是怎麼樣有這樣類似的區分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13876.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13905.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
報告委員這個相關的數據我們可能回去要再做一個統計我沒有要數據我是要有沒有相關的區分因為說如果我們的統計數據都沒有這樣的區分的話那我們政策工具就很難去執行也就是說現在警政系統有沒有針對無差別攻擊或異常動機犯罪有沒有獨立的統計分類還是之後被歸類為一般傷害罪一般的傷害罪裡面我想這個要有一個統計的數據就是說我們依刑法罪的分類裡面有沒有獨立的無差別攻擊的類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13907.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13927.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我們在做犯罪紀錄的時候都會做一個分類犯罪紀錄包括犯罪動機的類型的有沒有備註去欄位我剛剛提到這些因為是比較細部的犯罪就是我剛剛提到至少有三種不同的類型我們希望說除了說無差別攻擊這些之外我們更細部裡面要把它的犯罪類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13927.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13952.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
把它做一個更細部的統整我們才知道說以後不是只有警政署的工作哪些是跟衛福部相關哪些跟社會相關的局處相關什麼是縣市政府能夠幫助的什麼可以關乎的我們才可以把它統整起來這樣做有效的要有工具有政策的工具我們才可以做全方位的來去防治好不好再麻煩可不可以給我一點書面就是現在的分類的狀況跟一些數據如同韓國這樣子好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13957.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13961.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請賴氏寶委員發言謝謝主席以及各位親戚有請法務部的政務部長好 請政務部長法務部政務部長還有我們警政署的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13987.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14012.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
還有司法院的長官好不好司法院長官 李廳長是吧對 司法院是李廳長那內政部的話是組長跟執政監先請教這個應該警聖署吧社委法方面社委法方面你們要修一個東西變成說善不仇恨的言論關三天罰三萬罰三萬關三天 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14017.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14042.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
這個外界對這個很有意見結論是要不要講一下外界對這個很有意見就變成你們行政權無限擴大到什麼叫仇恨式的言論你這個界定就不清楚這個來講的話就變成是行政的一個裁量權他認為你散佈仇恨你就散佈仇恨怕三萬就關三天 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14043.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14054.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
會不會這個以後變成這樣子只要罵到你們長官有人批評你們就要被關3天跑3萬好不好講一下可以嗎報告委員 修法的這些法律用語可以做各方面的廣泛的一個討論可以做更精準的定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14066.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14093.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
不是啊 你們不清不楚啊來 請華為部的市長那個 要 鄭部長 鄭部長你講一下 他這個立法你們會不會覺得這個行政權太大了這個行政裁量權太大了而且還可以直接有網路上有這樣的言語馬上把它移掉就變成數位中介法的這個護屁變成直接管網路不要忘了全世界敢去管網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14094.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14107.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
的平台只有共產國家看管我們什麼時候數位中介法在立法院沒辦法給你們通過你們就散佈在別的地方現在等於賴17條賴清德17條所謂的國安17條一條一條的一個落實下來啊那這個地方是行政權獨大我就請教政部長這個用字會不會太太粗糙不夠精緻會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14118.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14143.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個是法制上的一個問題那因為這個法是屬於內政部主管法規我們是尊重內政部的一個立法你們法務部要有一件嗎那這是屬於那個法制上的一個用字遣詞的問題剛才有委員提到了是不是可以請那個這個是要因為我沒辦法去幫內政部去回答這個問題內政部長官沒有在做 警政署警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14144.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14148.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
請律師再回來 你現在怎麼樣 你答案是不是沒有答案是不是這個以後還可以再做一個討論我現在跟你們講 幾位長官聽好了你們這樣這麼籠統的仇恨式言論這幾個字我就告訴你們這個就是思想犯言論犯思想犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14170.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14185.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
訴諸於文字的話就被文字獄了仇恨什麼叫仇恨罵官員就仇恨啊以後你把戒毒 我的戒毒就是仇恨的言論就是罵民進黨的官員就仇恨要罰三萬灌三天就變這樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14189.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14212.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
這幾位長官你們聽好 這個東西這麼的一個擴權這個叫行政擴權 而且網路管理的擴權就管網路 管人民的言論 基本上都一樣的意思我覺得很悲哀 何啟何死 陳啟何死我們已經變成一個 快要變成一個真的是獨裁國家行政權要獨大 立法局統統沒有你要真的講 認真講 一定要很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14215.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14238.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
部長我請教你是不是有個叫罪刑法定主義對不對罪刑法是屬於刑法這個是屬於行政法這個跟罪刑法定沒有關係這個是另外一個範疇的問題那另外這部分應該不是法務部我知道啦那就因為它裡面這個要請內政部的來做一個不然罪刑法定主義這部分應該司法院來講一下好不好司法官講一下司法院聽長講一下你聽長要講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14244.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14266.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
這個可能涉及到處罰的明確性原則的問題他不明確嘛對不對這個我們可能在什麼叫我問你仇恨誓言論什麼叫仇恨誓言論你告訴我這個主責機關是應該是我們內政部主責但是我們那你法院啊你判啊不是嗎那是刑審廳的問題我們刑事審計廳的問題而且這個不需要經過審判直接可以罰直接可以關 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14274.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14287.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
對 那個是行政法院那邊的行政庭處理的跟我們刑事庭可能比較沒有關係所以大家就推一跳牌舞了內政部的主責機關主責機關內政部的代專委內政部代專委有沒有內政部你們要管這個事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14296.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14321.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
你們管這個法條沒有報告委員 我們是內政務民政司所以沒有管這個 對 是好吧 就誤捕到了 今天誤捕到這個東西來 我就看喔 那個其他長官請回喔 那個政部長其他長官都請回 我就留政部長下來其他長官可以回去喔你看喔 我們看過去的數字其他長官請回 就剩政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14325.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14346.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
歷屆總統 陳水扁當總統執行槍決的實行32人馬英九的時候執行33人蔡英文執行2個賴清德總統現在 ongoing 他只執行1個這一個是不是你執行的 鄭部長是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14348.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14375.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
是今年1月份今年1月是你執行的嗎1月份你為什麼那時候敢執行你的什麼條件以下執行這部分有經過那個最高檢察署的一個審核之後認為這件沒有其他救濟的一個法定救濟的一個好 我們現在就來談這個問題喔大家都了解民進黨有廢死黨綱啊他的行動綱領第26條明明白白講言喻廢死可信性我們再看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14378.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14385.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
所以你們在配合了這個去年的九月份的時候這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14389.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14415.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
憲法法庭8號的解釋已經實施廢止了我們都知道究竟的有非常上述在審憲法法庭是不是這三個都走完了你才會執行槍決是不是這樣子看那個死刑犯他有沒有提出這些的救濟機會每一個都在提 怎麼沒有他那個一定會提所以這部分的確是要走完這些的程序現在還有幾個沒有執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14419.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14433.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
36 36位沒有執行大家都還在做這個嗎這部分我們也希望就是說司法院這部分能夠在程序上這部分能夠因為有些都要跟司法院做一個救濟那個高院或者是最高法院或者是憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14434.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14453.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那這部分如果說走完的話有做一些的程序走完那當然我們這部分就會合乎到整個一個執行的一個我們就會執行我請教你那個要執行是不是法務部長簽字就可以執行是不是那個他經過很多的審核那要層層的審核嘛也不要聽總統的指示這個跟總統沒關係就你執行這個執行要經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14461.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14471.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
如果所以這樣講起來的話應該他有救濟的機會他當然會程序上來我告訴你啦民進黨執政就不可能就是這個樣子啦整個賴清德執行今年執行那個一個人槍決一鼠比鼠鳥啦你看好了因為黨綱寫這麼清楚行動綱領第26條 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14480.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14483.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
而且民進黨都在搞廢死基本上就是他黨綱裡面就有廢死所以他不是兩個神主牌以前說兩個神主牌一個是非核 一個是台獨另外加一個廢死三個 第三張的或者兩個半的神主牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14495.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14520.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
清清楚楚看得到但是社會上是很反感的社會上反費時高達八成以上那對於治亂適用重點其實社會上還是滿期待的然後我們看最後一題我就一小題而已就在昨天菲律賓正式生效不是 那個新加坡對不起 講錯了新加坡正式生效詐騙犯強制編刑6到24下 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14525.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14544.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
它裡面 cover 的程度是什麼cover 是核心成員或者招募者 車手這些只要有關的 或者提供假帳戶的這些人通通要編刑6到24下 這個最有效這個最有效這個因為我已經提出來了這個詐騙犯了 就給他編刑你們法務部看到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14548.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14569.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這部分跟委員報告這部分有納入刑法修正會議來做一個討論那這邊當然不是法務部要怎麼做就怎麼做這還要邀請學者專家跟檢審便等專家學者來做一個嚴厲討論那這部分其實還要再廣大社會意見那目前我們是在評估它那個可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14570.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14574.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
大概要多久時間可以出來半年半年可以嗎半年可以嗎開幾次公聽會 開幾次研討會就夠了啊對不對 這個事情你就去好好的去新加坡昨天生效的以前邊警不是針對這個跟其他人正式針對詐騙案 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14592.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14610.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
它的核心 它的外圍 它的旁邊的一些全部納進來 要邊形6到24下很可怕的大概3下就開花了 屁股就開花了它6到24下 這個東西這個社會知識度其實很高的這個詐騙犯給邊形 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14614.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14632.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
事後高達七成的台灣老百姓是支持的因為我們什麼打詐打了半天打了半天我們一年還是一千億的詐騙金額而且就警政署我開了公聽會我都好難過每次我影在這個宿舍看著 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14633.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14648.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
退休的老夫妻兩個把老本全部被騙走2000萬被騙走2000萬另外一對1000萬都被騙了然後警政署的長官說這個喔要追回來大概一年以上追回來多少 10% |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14650.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14663.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
最多10%所以大概就沒有了一片就是沒有了因為它馬上轉到國外去了大家對這個生物痛覺這個炸片飯生物痛覺然後你們現在搞得搞得雞背狗跳搞得現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14665.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14678.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
銀行今天金管會的長官沒有在這裡對銀行來講我這句話講完就下來對銀行他明明金管會規定50萬就要問你來源問你什麼結果現在20萬就問了問東問西 問東問西這樣問了大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14682.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14684.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
有人就給我反應了我的帳的錢轉到另外我的帳的錢也要被問了30分鐘轉20萬新台幣也要20分鐘因為這個是跟委員報告的確是因為我們是聯防的機制因為的確是銀行他們也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14701.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14712.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
對民眾保護他的財產多問啦多提醒我自己轉到我自己帳戶也要問 奇怪咧從這個帳轉到另外一個帳 也要問30分鐘因為這個其實可以幫民眾攔阻了很多的轉到我的帳戶去攔阻什麼後來因為委員你應該有如願的去做一些的不是我的錢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14723.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14749.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那個朋友的話因為我想包括長輩都會碰到這種問題甚至我們本身都會碰到這種問題我強調的重點是在於我要強調的重點就是我們對詐騙犯太寬鬆了然後因為要反詐打詐引起很多的不便都拉把心情吸收社會成本太高了跑步這方面認真去研究啦邊行進入好啦進入好啦好好去研究啦謝謝委員好 謝謝賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14754.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14757.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那接下来我们请谢一凤委员发言好谢谢主席我想请法务部的政部长跟司法院里厅长好再有请法政部长里厅长 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14781.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14795.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
委員好早安我想要了解的是無差別的攻擊這樣子就是當然我知道說定刑度的是法務部然後就是判刑的是司法院但是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14796.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14815.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
第一个就是说对于犯罪的发生有很多民众都认为说就是刑度太低的问题那就这一起案件来说如果今天这个张文被抓到那他所判的刑度是什么沈部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14815.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14829.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
他那個是會觸犯271條他那個是殺人者處死刑無期徒刑或4年以上有期徒刑他可以處死刑可以處死刑是不是那司法院會怎麼判 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14830.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14858.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
跟委員報告一下我們有統計從109年到現在大概有十件無差別的攻擊案件大概我們有六件是判處死刑有人死掉的有人死掉有六件是有人死掉的那有兩件是判處死刑有四件是判無期徒刑那這樣子如果造成了非常多的人員的傷亡那在於就是審理的過程當中會不會更快速 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14862.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14872.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
是不是因為說從過去以來這樣子無差別的攻擊在省度的時候因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14874.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14888.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
沒有很快的有一個判刑的決定以及即便是判處死刑之後那都有這麼多就是說救濟的管道導致執行的期間又更長 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14890.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14907.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那對於民眾而言會不會啟而效之模仿或者是造成一些無辜的受害者像一般的民眾所遭受到的這樣子一個危險跟風險更高呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14911.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14932.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個問題我們這個其實非常可惡那這個遇到這種隨機殺人把人殺死的這一種我們一定會求死刑那這一種的話那我們會整個因為監督法院在這個案件的那個我們會會極力這個除了死刑之外我們認為是沒辦法原諒的因為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14935.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14954.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
為什麼要就教於兩位就是現在有非常多的罪犯他們認為就如同剛才前面有委員提到的詐騙那他們認為刑度以及法院的審理那是不是對於這個犯罪沒有辦法有效的嚇阻那 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14955.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14965.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
對於說如果像詐騙那新加坡現在提出邊行我們除了邊行還有沒有什麼其他更好的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14967.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14987.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這部分像那個詐騙這部分跟委員報告那部分因為整個民眾是有就是要重判那這部分我們有一個良心的一個標準這個我都要求各地檢署各檢察檢察長對這一種的顯然判決的行動不合乎我們社會的期待要上訴那另外還有定執行就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14988.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15011.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
不要說騙越多次變成定情形越輕就一件判一年兩年就判兩件就加一個月那這種的這種如果說判決有這種的情形我們都會要求檢查這樣再要審查要上訴這一定要讓回復到民眾的期待而且讓這些詐騙詐騙這些嫌犯這些被告讓他划不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15016.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15030.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那些詐騙你也享受不到那這些你也划不到那你覺得新加坡現在採取邊形我說他採取邊形對犯罪有沒有效惡主那因為現在其實詐騙案這麼多對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15036.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15056.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
所有的檢察官也好法官也好造成了非常多工作的壓力那對於社會大眾也是啊還有對於檢警調等等都是這樣子的那請問一下你認為新加坡的邊行對於這樣子的詐騙的嚇阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15058.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15074.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
這邊還要再做一個觀察因為新加坡被騙的金額也是蠻多的也是蠻多他新加坡詐騙也是很嚴重那因為我想這個邊形這個還要再做一個討論因為這兩公會這是不是有問事完他一定會有講說這是一個酷刑的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15075.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15099.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那这部分我想我们的手段都很多我们现在修法有加重这样的一个处罚那另外在落实个案这部分我们现在要求一定要从中度型去求刑去求刑让他把他关在牢里关在牢里然后我们再来做一个教化那在假释这部分我们是严审假释那个其他比较其他的犯罪的假释的这部分我们比这些 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15100.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15112.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
最嚴重而且他一定要跟被害人做一個調和解賠償那個損害嘛那不會賠償損害這部分我們就在就不會那你覺得這樣子的方式有沒有辦法減輕整個我是認為現在根本包括現在整個有下降的趨勢這些人起訴現在法院也開始判重了那我們給他生壓現在我們剛剛委員會關心像我們那個監所那個都超縮就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15129.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15152.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
我們都是因為法院的支持所以看搜索這邊真的是都有嚴重的超收我想這邊如果判決速度快一點的話可以到監獄去關起來我想最高峰現在已經有下降的一個趨勢了我想判決判中一點然後在整個一個假釋的審查這邊我們更加的有嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15153.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15175.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
看他有沒有去賠償被害人的損害如果被害人的損失有賠償的話這部分我們才會比較考慮給他做一個假釋的門檻那需要多久的時間才能看到效果目前是有看到效果因為對於整體的案件要大幅度的下降那因為才能夠紓解第一個民眾的受害的機會還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15176.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15202.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
就是說希望能夠讓所有都不會因為這個案件減緊掉都是工作壓力加重其他的東西都沒有辦法做現在委員會很關心很了解這個問題很專業但是請委員放心現在我們今年11月份跟去年11月份的比較受理件數已經減了四分之一了另外財損金額也降了52%了 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15204.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15221.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那我想這個趨勢是一個反轉的趨勢已經在下降了那我想明年我們今天是最後一天明年我相信這個我們可以看到這個趨勢應該一直在降低那經過這次的努力的一個打造我相信成果是有呈現出來那我跟委員補充我們其實剛才那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15223.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15236.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
賴委員有提到銀行端像我們跟銀行端有一個預警的機制像我們台北地檢署辦一件那個斬金專案那件也是從銀行端提供的那些可疑賬戶我們去發展的案件那一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15238.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15256.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
被告被告我們那個被害人我們抓到了我們被害人我們查到有幾千人那財損金的高達200億那台中有一件神說集團那一件被害金的四字姬我們扣到了多少扣到了三十幾億所以這部分有反轉的跡象所以委員如果說有信我們可以提供更詳細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15256.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15271.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我知道說當然我們希望說不要有這樣的案件發生還有就是說因為就是一般的民眾因為這樣子相關的偵查那大家在銀行轉帳上面的確都會遭遇到這樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15272.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15293.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
就是說很多民眾都不翻其說那當然為了要保護這些被詐騙就是不要有人再被詐騙當然這是銀行需要提供的這個我們希望銀行可以提供這樣子的一個稽查的方式那當然最後我再問剛好鄭部長在這裡就是說我們彰化縣的那個調查站 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15294.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15319.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
你不知道有沒有去看過有去看過 那個很危險喔對啊 在那個八卦山的那個有點傾斜了那籃球上都傾斜了因為底下的民眾也會擔心說這個調查站如果往下滑的時候會造成民眾的相關的安全的這樣的問題那是不是因為他們已經計畫搬到彰化市了是不是可以給予他們預算的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15319.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15339.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這部分是不是說我們預算因為它只有中長期的一個預算計畫所以我們也希望說預算能夠趕緊審過或者的話不然會停下來好 那先編嘛 對不對先編 它那個有編它那個是算我們法務部第一優先的排第一名的那個很危險的真的是謝謝委員關心好 謝謝好 謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15345.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15362.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
好 那接下來我們再請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在沈發慧委員 沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在好 那今天所有登記發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15364.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15384.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者也請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會那麼許新穎審發會跟林慶祺委員所提的書面質詢都列入記錄並且刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15385.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15398.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
也請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議我們就進行到此討論事項就做如下的決議另定期繼續審查我們現在散會謝謝各位官員還有各位委員 |