| IVOD_ID |
17150 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17150 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-24T08:31:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-24T12:06:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:34:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea6f793b294c43507002ea0e8b14a04e903fa04411479d882ac950f692ac86c24b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「住宅法」修正草案等43案，詳見議事日程。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:14 - 12:06:00 |
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好請主任秘書報告出席人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
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立法院第11屆第4會及內政委員會第17次全體委員會議事錄時間114年12月22日星期一上午9時2分至下午1時3分地點紅龍202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人列席委員鄭天才委員等16人列席官員內政部部長劉世芳及相關人員衛生福利部政務次長呂健德及相關人員交通部政務次長吳勝源及相關人員國家安全局副局長陳松吉及相關人員 |
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法務部常務次長黃謀信及相關人員國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司總經理馮恢生台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司總經理陳慧玉主席黃昭紀委員建兵報告事項一選讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請內政部部長衛生福利部部長交通部部長請正署署長國家安全會議秘書長國家安全局局長 |
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2504.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
法务部部长就计划性攻击事件进行社会治安维护制检讨与精进专题报告并被质询内政部部长刘施芳卫生福利部政务次长吕建德交通部政务次长吴胜元报告委员苏巧慧等21人质询分别由内政部部长刘施芳及相关人员卫生福利部政务次长吕建德及相关人员交通部政务次长吴胜元国营台湾铁路股份有限公司总经理冯辉生国家安全局副局长陈松及法务部常务次长黄谋信答复说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2505.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2524.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員劉建國高金素美徐欣盈林倩琦楊瓊英及蘇清泉等六人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關與一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會通過臨時提案二案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2532.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2538.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問各位委員上市會議遺失度有無錯誤或遺漏無錯誤 遺失度確定繼續進行討論事項請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2544.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2563.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
继续审查委员郭玉琴等17人 委员黄建豪等16人分别拟居住宅法第4条条文修正草案委员徐巧心等20人拟居住宅法第23条条文修正草案委员林黛花等17人拟居住宅法第25条条文修正草案委员赖世宝等17人拟居住宅法第15条及第23条条文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2563.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2585.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員牛許廷等16人女居住宅法第10條及第57條之一條文修正草案委員翁曉琳等16人女居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員李燕秀等17人女居住宅法第15條及第23條條文修正草案委員羅志強等16人女居住宅法第25條條文修正草案委員台灣民眾黨黨團女居住宅法部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2585.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2606.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委員蘇巧慧等17人離居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員牛許廷等17人離居住宅法增訂第21條之1條文修正草案委員林思明等21人離居住宅法部分條文修正草案委員李昆城等24人離居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員徐欣盈等26人離居住宅法部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2607.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2622.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
委員馬文君等19人 擬居住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員高金素梅等27人 擬居住宅法部分條文修正草案委員鄭天才等18人 擬居住宅法第2條條文修正草案委員吳佩義等17人 擬居住宅法第22條及第23條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2623.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2651.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
委員林倩琦等23人女居住宅法部分條文修正查案委員王紅薇等20人委員陳素月等17人委員陳金輝等18人分別女居住宅法第4條條文修正查案委員徐宇甄等20人委員范雲等17人委員林月琴等19人分別女居住宅法部分條文修正查案委員楊耀等22人女居住宅法第25條條文修正查案委員羅廷偉等17人女居住宅法第4條第15條及第23條條文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2651.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2668.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
委員王美惠等17人委員邱正軍等19人分別擬具住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員蘇巧惠等17人擬具住宅法部分條文修正草案委員羅明釵等16人擬具住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員李博義等16人擬具住宅法增訂第4條之1條文草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2668.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2693.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
委員王玉敏等17人擬拒住宅法第4條第19條及第20條條文修正草案委員楊瓊英等21人委員游浩等17人分別擬拒住宅法第4條條文修正草案委員羅志強等16人擬拒住宅法第40條及第43條條文修正草案委員葉元芝等19人委員蘇清泉等18人委員許智傑等42人分別擬拒住宅法第4條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2694.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2707.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
審查委員黃傑等19人擬居住宅法部分條文修正查案委員何欣淳等19人擬居住宅法第4條條文修正查案委員盧憲一等16人擬居住宅法第4條第9條及第39條條文修正查案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2711.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2735.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
討論事項之第一案至第40案 業經本會於114年8月14日第11屆第三會期第33次全體委員會會議決議暫行保留條文及討論事項其餘個案均另定期繼續審查從此本次會議繼續進行審查現在介紹在場的委員及列席的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2738.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2764.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
首先介紹我們網美會召委黃婕委員蘇喬惠委員李柏毅委員牛許廷委員張志倫委員徐宇貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2769.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2794.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
現在介紹我們列席的官員有內政部長劉時芳地政司林家政司長國土管理署吳興修副司長民主委員會公共建設處周錫衛副處長保護部李子綺檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2797.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2821.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
財政部國有財產署張翠芳副署長副稅署倪立新副署長教育部高等教育師吳志偉專門委員衛生福利部社會救助及社公司林春彥檢認視察 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2825.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2843.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
社會及家庭署莊金珠代理處長就本日議程新增之審查法案請提案委員說明提案要旨我們請黃婕委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2852.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2879.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 謝謝主席所有的同事大家早安那我說明一下我的提案的內容的幾個重點那因為居住權其實是我國憲法保障的基本人權那跟我們國人就學就業婚姻養老各方面的生活面向都有關係那但是呢現在要怎麼用合理的租金來租到一間舒適的房子我認為是現在很重要的一件事情那我自己也是長期的租屋族 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2880.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2904.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以我希望就我遇到跟我聽到的這些困境來提出一些修正草案第一個是租屋市場還是要努力的透明化那當然這個我也跟我們內政部溝通過很多次我希望說政府接下來還是可以定期公佈租金市場的一些物件的資訊如果沒有辦法到每一間的話至少說要有一個區間包括說哪一個區位他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2905.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2927.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
大概的房型的配比呀然後他的屋齡等等基本的這些資訊提供之後可以告訴大家在這樣子的物件這樣子類型這樣的區段大概他的市場的價格大概就是落在什麼地方那大家才可以知道說這樣這個租屋市場是可以有一個穩定的作用那也可以讓租屋族來進行參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2928.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2949.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那第二個是設宅的需求應該要有個登記的平台這個其實我們從很久之前就已經不斷的在提了就是這個設宅需求的登記平台登記之後可以讓民眾知道說他如果重複登記的話是不是也可以優先的選擇哪裡也可以掌握說這附近設宅的需求大概就是長這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2950.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2972.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那我們政府方跟社宅的需求方大家才可以有一個媒合的共識那第三個是社宅應該要導入社福資源因為長輩跟身心障礙的家庭其實常常會受到租屋市長的歧視我這邊也說過好幾案是一些身心障礙的朋友他們要租社宅的時候或者是說他們在包租代管底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2974.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2993.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
即便都已經是政府保障的體制了可是他們想要進行抽籤或者是他們在這個市場上就是常常會遇到一些不平等的待遇所以要怎麼解決這些弱勢族群他們的租屋困境就是我認為這些社福資源應該要放入社宅裡面很重要接下來應該要去討論的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2994.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3017.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那第四個是社宅的租金應該要滾動的調整來符合經濟可負擔的原則那因為其實成豬社宅的人當然就是因為他有這樣的需求可能他的收入還不足以穩定生活或者是說他的財產可能現在還沒有辦法讓他可以進到買房的市場所以他才會來申請這個社宅嘛很多都是青年朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3017.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3038.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
一些昏郁的年輕家庭甚至是有一些是弱勢所以這個社宅的租金就變得很重要不能說一味地導向市場的機制讓這一些他已經是有社宅需求的結果你還跟他說我要符合這個市場的機制他又沒有辦法租這個社宅了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3038.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3058.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那第五個是希望這個鼓勵公益的出租人降低租屋族申請租金補貼的障礙那這個也是我不斷在提醒內政部的就是我們現在希望這個租屋市場的量一定要拉起來那所以其實你會希望讓更多的公益出租人可以投入到租屋的市場裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3059.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3083.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
可是現在其實這樣的意願這樣的誘因都還不足夠所以希望我們政府可以要定一些更多的讓房東可以轉型為公益出租人的誘因包括說他的免稅額度是不是可以再拉大等等那以上是我的住宅法裡面有提到的幾個部分希望等一下實質審查的時候大家可以就這些意見來凝聚共識來讓租屋的市場更好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3090.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3113.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
謝謝黃婕委員的說明 補充介紹到場的有麥玉成委員那列席機關準備之書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報報告委員會現在宣讀新整體案討論事項第41至43案之條文請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3115.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3141.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第四條委員黃婕等19人提案第1項後段修正為另提供一定比率為涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業青年婚姻家庭有居住需求者第2項第7款修正為其身心障礙者或欲有未成年身心障礙家屬者其餘同線型條文委員何新淳等19人提案第1項後段修正為另提供一定比率婚姻家庭及為涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業有居住需求者 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3141.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3167.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
增訂第二項第三項前項婚姻青年家庭只符合下列規定之一者亦欲有12歲以下子女或胎兒二具登記申請日前二年內登記結婚且婚姻關係程序中符合前項第一款規定者不受本法第25條續租期限制限制租期合計得至子女年滿18歲指依本法及主管機關公告而據稱租資格且符合前項第一款規定者適用之 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3168.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3188.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
原第二項一列第三項並著作文字修正其餘同線型條文委員盧憲一等16人提案增訂第三項主管機關及民間新辦之社會住宅與非原住民族地區新辦者至少應按該指轄市縣市轄區內原住民族地區外之原住民人口數佔全國原住民總人口數之比例分配並 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3189.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3208.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
保障原住民入住社會住宅其保障比率不低於前三年度該地區原住民人口數佔全國原住民總人口數平均比例其餘同線型條文第九條為盧憲英等16人提案第二項後段增訂中央及直轄市縣市主管機關於辦理前項補貼時若涉及原住民族申請時應會同 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3209.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3236.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
原住民族事務主管機關主動提供具文化敏感度之諮詢協助或媒合等服務以力度匯區原住民家庭取得適足居住資源資訊其餘同線性條文第15條委員黃婕等19人提案第一項末段修正為但每屋每月租金收入免稅額度應參考房屋所在地之住宅相關指標制定應參考住宅相關指標由主管機關定之其餘同線性條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3237.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3259.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第18條委員黃婕等19人提案第18條中央主管機關應建制社會住宅需求登記平台供全國符合本法第25條地下資格民眾登記並定期統計分析及其需求資訊以作為社會住宅新辦戶數供給區委方形配比社會福利服務及公共設施提供之依據納入住宅計畫及財務計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3261.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3278.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
第25條文黃婕等19人提案第二項中段增訂租金調整文字第三項修正為社會住宅成租者之租金計算中央主管機關依家戶所得與財產計算可負擔能力訂定分期收費原則並定期檢討之其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3278.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3298.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第34條文黃婕等19人提案增訂第二項中央主管機關應會同社會福利目的事業主管機關針對第19條第一項第六款新辦之社會住宅採成租民間住宅並轉租及代為管理方法之成租者提供必要之社會福利服務原第二項一列第三項並著作文字修正其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3299.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3320.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第39條委員盧憲一等16人提案第一項修正為直轄市縣市主管機關或相關目的事業主管機關為營造住宅景觀及風貌得補助或獎勵興建增建改建修建或修繕具有地方特色原住民族特色或歷史原貌之住宅新辦社會住宅時因適度徵詢符合入住資格及原住民族意願及 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3321.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3348.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
文化生活需求納入規劃設計考量並得准用相關補助或獎勵規定第二項同線型條文第47條委員黃婕等19人提案刪除第一項第一款前段之租賃與文字增訂第一項第二款二租賃住宅市場不同物件形態區位房型配比屋領之每坪坪均數與中位數價格資訊其中屬本法第9條第一項第三款第19條第一項第6款之物件應優先辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3349.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3353.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
原地2、3、4款 款次第1 其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3355.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3381.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
附帶決議二社會住宅系政府保障人民居住權協助弱勢族群穩定生活之重要政策工具而未成年身心障礙者及其照顧者應償其照顧需求醫療與復健支出較高居住穩定性對其身心發展及家庭支持體系尤為關鍵現行社會住宅經濟或社會弱勢者身分認定制度對於未成年身心障礙者本人及其主要照顧者之居住需求尚有檢討與強化之空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3382.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3410.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
為落實身心障礙者權利保障精神並減輕其家庭之居住與照顧負擔原建請內政部緊速研議修正社會住宅相關申請規定將為成年身心障礙者納入社會住宅經濟或社會弱勢者身份適用對象以確保其享有穩定安全及適宜之居住環境必充分發揮社會住宅輔助弱勢促進居住公平之政策功能提案人委員蘇巧慧等 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3411.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3417.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
宣讀完畢我們現在進行主條協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3508.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3519.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那個上一次我們是一二條都已經維持現行條文了那我們現在從上次宣告是第四條保留到這次會期來審議我們就從第四條開始來審查OK |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3528.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3543.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席 我們前面講到現在第四條的開始跟我們前面在八月十四委員會有審查的結論就是說出租給弱勢的比例不能夠40%沒變嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3548.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3554.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
現在我就是說我們都會說青年婚姻財要設限於比例15%啦但是現在這個15%我就是說有時候我們當地的需求不一定是這樣你如果限制在15%的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3573.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3577.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
是不是有一點點在當地去 現在很有氣概你這樣來35% 未來當地的SQ會不一樣對 因為每一個地方的SQ不一樣我們若是有40%在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3601.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3609.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那時候有這個問題啦 我想問署長你們未來去了解跟有提案提供的人你們覺得現在的做法是怎樣 以上今天其他委員有 保育 保育委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3625.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3630.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝對於這個社宅的身份認定方面我對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3632.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3656.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
欲有未成年身心障礙者一人以上我是支持但是我對於我們接下來的婚育宅其實我也認為必須要有一定比例來鼓勵現在少子化來解決現在少子化的這些問題確實住宅也是造成少子化很重要的因素之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3657.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3673.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
另外我有提出四之一條的這個甄列再次說明一下在1960年代在左營的杯仔頭農場也就是蓮池潭旁邊它就有一些只有取得建物卻沒有土地的問題另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3675.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3700.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
在許多眷村改建的地方也有這個問題還有中油宿舍區也就是在高雄煉油廠區旁邊也有一大群中油宿舍牢宅的問題這些都是沒有土地而只有建物那我希望如果未來在進行督耕的時候或者是這裡有蓋一定的社宅的時候我們可以入法沒有辦法獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3705.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3729.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
把沒有辦法獲得因為政策變遷的因素導致原規劃補償安置不可能實現那主管機關得提供社會租財供其入住而且我們加了一點就是說如果因為這個獲得核定者他入住的資格不得轉讓繼承那也希望各位委員會各位同仁可以討論支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3734.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3761.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
謝謝李博弈委員那接下來請黃婕委員發言對 現在第四條那因為這一條其實很多委員都有版本啦所以我是希望我們等一下針對這個比例確實要有一個精確的數字來討論那裡面包括多少比例是要有給這個婚育家庭的那在我的版本裡面我也是覺得一定要放入婚育家庭因為其實婚育家庭會是社宅非常主要要支持的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3762.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3788.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那這個對很多就是新手爸媽來說他們剛好經濟上要打拼然後薪資也都還在努力的階段那現在就必須要承擔這個育兒的家庭重擔所以上有老下有小啦所以我覺得這個時候把這個婚姻家庭放入是非常重要的但是比例我覺得大家可以有一個討論的共識到底什麼樣比例或是可以談心一點因為各縣市可能需求不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3788.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3813.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那大家 我是希望大家可以有一個共識但是一定要有婚育宅這樣的文字好 謝謝接下來請舒喬委員發言好 一樣就像大家都聚焦在這兩條當中那我先講我第四條的部分的話我再次的提到我這裡的話一樣是對於社會住宅經濟及社會弱勢戶的認定希望是能夠更全面 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3814.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3819.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以呢我們其實在6月19日主條審查的時候針對這個第4條就已經有跟內政部交換意見那吳署長其實你上次也承諾會回去將未成年身心障礙者納入所以等一下麻煩回答一下就是說那研究的結果如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3831.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3850.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那在這裡的話我們還是要強調家長要養育未成年的身心障礙者所付出的時間成本 財力 勞 成本和心力都比正常家庭高上許多所以如果未成年的身心障礙者沒有被列入我覺得是非常非常可惜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3851.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3867.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那所以這邊 雖然內政部這邊是已經有表示過一次說其實這不需要修法 韓市級可以處理所以我們也因此提了一個附帶決議不過我還是就是梧桐剛剛所說的我希望等一下吳署長這邊透過這個我們在討論的過程正式留下會議記錄 所以還是請您解釋但我的附帶決議也已經先提出了 這是第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3877.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3895.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第二部分大家剛剛討論了非常多的婚育宅的部分我也是非常支持也是堅持婚育宅應該還不但要納入而且是應該要能夠提升但至於怎麼個彈性調整法還有提升比例多少我想大家都已經表示很多意見我們就不再贅述但等一下希望可以做充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3897.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3917.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
沒關係 待會兒我們先請徐政委發言謝謝主席其實針對第四條的修正因為我們都知道在114年房租的指數已經是109.67%已經卸下歷史新高所以上次我們在討論的時候是希望要至少提供40%以上的比例出租給經濟或社會弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3919.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3929.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
可是事實上這40%事實上還是稍嫌少了一點所以本期還是希望說是不是能夠提高到50%那當時內政部是有提到說把這個弱勢宅比例從40%提到50%會被標籤化但是我想如果說難道40%的時候就不會被標籤化嗎所以我想應該是不會有這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3943.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3960.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那當然我們在上一次的這個修正的條文裡面就有希望能夠加入青年婚育宅那青年婚育宅的部分我想也是現在對於現在少子化很多的年輕人不婚不生的原因就是因為他們很怕就是結了婚之後要生小孩他們根本養不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3961.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3972.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以希望就是如果可以有青年婚姻宅讓他們再有一個安定的環境那他們可能就會有想要生子的一個這樣子的一個動機那也可以提升我們這個少子化的一個狀況的一個減免 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3977.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3994.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那當然在這邊也希望說我們今天的這個針對住宅法第四條大家也能夠讓大家感受到就是如果大家能夠在這樣的一個環境中讓這個育兒家庭在社會制度中可以感受到國家的支持 謝謝好 那個黃婕穩要補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4000.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4018.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好 不好意思我補充一下剛剛提到的這個未成年身心障礙家屬的部分我也有放在裡面那我也覺得這個是之前漏掉的應該要被補足那尤其是現在租屋市場我有強調說其實租屋市場對身障的家庭其實很不友善這個我自己就接過很多個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4019.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4034.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
他們真的就是會遇到一些阻礙包括說沒有無障礙設施然後包括說房東看到可能是身心障礙的家庭他們出租的意願就降低了這是真的所以我希望說這個未成年身心障礙家屬的這個條款一定要放進去謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4038.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4053.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那個請 好 接下來請你去提委員發言謝謝 這個當初國民黨這邊大部分的委員提案都是希望說育有未成年子女的家庭可以優先入住社宅嘛基本上是第四條的修正方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4053.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4080.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們上次上個會議討論的時候後來內政部內部溝通的時候有講希望是放寬變成只要有結婚就可以優先入住社宅我想這樣的大方向大家都不會反對但是比例上的問題我是覺得要把話說清楚因為本來我們自己提案的版本像黃建豪委員提案的版本有未成年之女有50%就是一個非常大的優惠程度但內政部有講說這實際上有的不見得會有這麼多可能會造成社宅空置的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4081.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4110.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但你現在既然放寬成變成結婚就變成這個範圍的人變得更多了所以比例上我希望有一個明確的數字而且不要太低我們初步討論我是按照你們自己青年婚育租屋協助因為今年年初你們就有做不是年初就今年下半年的時候你們就有做政策宣示就是說要做婚育宅而且你們自己講說要留20%20%做婚育宅既然政府已經做了這樣的明確宣示我們就是乾脆把20%婚育宅寫進法條看一看大家的意見好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4112.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4114.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好 接下來我們請徐姓委員發言好 謝謝本席也有針對第四條做修正那我們看到了內政部的回應內政部擔心放寬欲有一名未成年子女會排擠弱勢戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4134.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4151.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
但是本席要在这里特别强调根据统计我国只生育一胎的比率已经逐年提升到53.43%如果政府不能在租屋市场提供实质的诱因年轻家庭更不敢生育 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4152.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4180.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那社会住宅呢不仅应该是救济更应该是支持育儿的基石所以行政院既然推动少子化的一个应对政策那法律的未接的修正更要能够给予民众长期的心理安定感所以希望因应少子化将社会住宅优先户的资格由育有未成年子女二人以上放宽为一人以上以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4181.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4183.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
接著請麥玉珍委員發言好謝謝主席我們針對大家都有講過這條我們不限不跟內政部的糾纏這個比例願意維持就是住宅至少40%提供給弱勢不變但是先把 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4203.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4221.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
低收入戶生性障礙者基本保障守住但是要補上制度的切口在一般戶60%中明確保留一定的比例給育兒家庭不限小孩人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4223.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4236.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
回應中央的推動就是婚姻仔的政策方向讓小孩家庭有小孩的家庭真正的租得起房租我們是這樣子的一個目標以上謝謝謝謝接下來請張宏路委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4246.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4257.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個大家的意見什麼的我覺得都不錯然後也有很多都可以列入參考但其實我們也要去仔細想了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4259.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4287.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
比如说有的人有提案要育有未成年之女两人以上有的比如说65岁以上老人等等的这些我只想请问国土署如果我们照这个法令都通过他们办不办得到你的社会在你有这么多吗我们如果有的还把比例给放进去如果你们做不到你们就违法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4288.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4317.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那我觉得我们这些都应该要被照顾很多应该被照顾那如果你入法的比例把它入法我很担心这个是做不到你做不到反而会造成很多的困扰还是说国土署他们可以有自己的我们的施行办法或什么的我们写在那边我们要达到的目标是什么什么的这个我觉得大家可以要考虑一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4321.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4322.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
接著我們請張志榮發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4324.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4352.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位觀言長那我覺得這個住宅法第4條的修正非常重要就是在於有涉宅的這個入住部分到底未來入住的這個人他的身分到底是一般戶還是弱勢戶那現在就現行的法條來講我們當然希望的是說就是一般的這個人抽籤的大概是60%弱勢的大概是40%那弱勢的比例裡面當然大家有很多不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4353.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4376.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那在一般戶裡面我們想要增加就是有關於未成年子女他可以佔百分之有預有未成年子女可以佔15%那我想要請教這個內政部的就是說因為大家在討論這些內容的時候到底能做還是不能做就是有過去的一些例子說現在入住社宅裡面的人大概就這些裡面的比例到底是多少是不是提可以提供相關數據不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4377.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4396.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
只是說能做不能做那或者是說所以也給我們立法院去做參考是不是過去就是說以這些比例我們現在規定的這些符合相關規定裡面的比例大概是多少我們才知道說如果你調整哪裡哪裡可以加強哪裡不能加強我覺得這樣討論大家會比較聚焦以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4399.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4401.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那個吳啟明委員 請吳局長發言好 我們部長因為目前我們的社會住宅因為都存在說很多弱勢跟我們的青少年尤其那個年輕的家庭他們要抽的比例還是過低本身是覺得說弱勢跟我們的年輕家庭是不是說這個比例可以提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4426.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4433.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這可以說是落實我們社宅的推動也能夠確保我們年輕人因為我們現在的社宅是非常熱門所以在我們都會區內大家都非常希望能夠抽到所以在這部分我也要求內政部是不是可以提高這才是我能夠確保我們落實和年輕人這是本省的建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4455.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4460.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好 我們現在請內政部來同意來回覆一下 內政部署長要講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4464.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4488.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
好 感謝各位委員的建議因為其實上次大概其實有針對這個弱勢的部分大概有做說明也就是說以現在來講40%的部分其實在我們目前跟地方政府統計出來的社宅裡面它的身份比例大概大概只有大概就佔46.7%實務上是已經超過 為什麼因為它也可以抽一般戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4493.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4509.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以基本上弱勢戶他是有兩支籤他是有兩支籤所以實務上已經是46.7那我們就擔心你如果把它定50實務上應該會超過60%也就是說你的社宅基本上會變成超過60%都是弱勢家庭在居住 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4509.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4528.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那第一個標籤化的問題以外第二個就是說一般戶的數量來抽籤的數量其實是三倍弱勢戶的三倍也就是你讓一般戶的中籤率變得非常低因為現行來講弱勢戶的中籤率已經是一般戶的2.5倍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4530.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4556.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
它中簽率其實已經非常高在現在數量不夠多的狀況下那可能一般戶所面臨的這個不滿可能會更高這是第一個那我們是把一般戶裡面的婚姻家庭把它抽出來去定它一個比例這也是因應少子化的現象因為根據這個行政院這個少子化的政策的規劃裡面他們的委託報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4558.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4577.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
大概就職業環境跟居住環境是他們的兩大議題最重要的兩大課題所以我們才因應這個院的這個指示去提出這個婚育宅的部分那這個婚育宅的部分我們現在的做法是我們中央先來做一個以現有的事先來做一個示範先來提 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4580.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4598.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
但是我們在提的過程當中現在也發現一個議題就是說我們如果把它延伸到比較中南部也就是說年輕人口沒有那麼高的地方的時候那有可能這個20%會它的種籤率會高得異常也就是說當地的年輕人口或許 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4599.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4615.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
有需要的或許不到那麼高那這個因為我們的社宅是全國都有各縣市都有雖然我們也是挑比較精華的地區但是我們在很多地方蓋的戶數多相對的來講它的中間率會變得非常高所以我們在這一點也在考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4616.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4637.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
城鄉之間的差距所以我們才會建議就是說我們去訂但是先不要訂太高也要考慮到一般縣市那我們講最極端的例子就是連江連江跟金門或許昆玉仔的數量可能就不是到那麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4637.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4655.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那這就是我們要很慎重去考慮的因為他們很多是工作人口他不一定是戶籍那所以這個部分來講對他們來講壓力是就是說對其他一般戶壓力會很大所以我們也會建議是這樣的一個方式那育有未成年子女是這樣我們上次的建議是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4656.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4670.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
因為我們現在的社宅都是通用設計也就是它基本上是符合無障礙的設計但是育有未成年子女他在室內他很可能要再增加一些設施那我們現在分兩個部分第一個是我們在包租代管裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4671.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4693.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們有給房東跟房客所以現在房東跟房客都會給他一些補助去改善他的室內環境去讓他能夠盡量去符合無障礙的一個條件第二個在社宅的興建的部分我們是去修改我們在社宅的設計如果到時候這個家庭是有育有未成年子女的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4694.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4715.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那相關的室內的一個無障礙的設計必須要再強化的部分那這個部分就是我們會跟就是跟衛福部再去檢討我們再去增加哪些項目這樣的話不用去特地去修改規定而是在我們的社宅的設計跟裝修上我們去增加這些項目讓它去符合這個育兒會成年子女的家庭環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4716.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4742.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
去做所以我才特別再去講就是說這樣的一個部分不一定去要經過修法但是透過設宅的一個設計的要求去做那我們去以我們的之前的林口設宅大致上都是遵照這個方式就是說入住的家庭你有特殊的需求都可以先來反映那我們會在室內的裝修上給予他一些比較特別的一個設計讓他能夠穩定的住在裡面我想這是我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4744.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4761.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個育兒會成年子女的部分的這個設計那婚育宅的部分的確是當時的政策是婚或育因為我們的確去研就依照這個依照我們社宅的做了住戶調查還有這一個少子化的調查裡面大概都證明其實兩個還是有一些正相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4762.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4779.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那所以其實關鍵是當時是為了鼓勵少子化才會去鼓勵解決少子化的政策那所以我們才會去提出來是婚禍育那就希望能夠更廣為吸納這一些年輕人最終是鼓勵他們來生育做以上的補充 謝謝那個李博議員市長那個我四字一條新政那個你說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4795.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4812.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
再說明一下這條其實是給地方政府它有相關的很多這些卡在這邊沒有辦法推行的這些都更的政策給地方政府一定的武器還是部長要說因為我說明一下好了其實是我們之前的狀況是這樣就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4813.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4838.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們現在不管是都更或是屈增的計畫照土增條例的規定或照都更現行的計畫審查都會有所謂的現住戶的一個安置計畫都會有現住戶的安置計畫那這個安置計畫裡面會比較多元包含有租金補貼也包含可以優先吸納介紹到包租貸款的家庭那涉財的部分當時大家討論是不敢是因為往往時間對不起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4840.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4855.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
往往時間是對不起來那對於社宅現在數量相對少的狀態下又要去保留的話其實他會有一定的困難但是如果說就租金補貼租金補貼正常來講土增條例他用的是自己的開發經費開發計畫的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4858.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4881.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
都更安置計畫裡面用的是開發計畫自己本身要去提供因為他有一個安置的一個義務他必須有安置的一個義務所以這兩點我覺得在現行的計畫裡面都已經有執行了那所以比較不適宜還要另外動用社會的資源再去協助他當時我想今天不管在土增或都更其實大家都是同樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4882.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4906.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
用這樣的方式那至於有沒有其他的專案的可侵我們是認為你除非是要符合社宅本身的資格社宅本身的資格也就是它的承租戶還是要一具有一定的資格那這樣會比較妥適要不然可能會擔心把整個社宅的政策又重新做了一個不同的定義是這樣子市長你講的我聽得懂啦但是在實務上的操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4907.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4919.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
它不會是這一個區塊這個部長會最了解比如說蓮池潭畔離我們現在的崇石安居它大概離一公里那它是不是同一個都更它不是同一個都更 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4919.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4946.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
但是你要處理地方政府要處理臨時談判他的空間就在重慈安居啊那你沒有先有這個武器給地方政府的話我們這個農場應該是永遠無法解決當你端出來說這個我們未來會有租金補貼這些人一定跟你抗爭嘛所以這個地方永遠都沒有辦法解決所以是不是我們再先把它擱置然後我們在後續再做一些比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4947.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4953.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
跟地方讓地方政府有機會來解決這一些都更的問題的這個方案出來謝謝這樣緊張站會員補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4964.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4981.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
剛剛署長講的那些就是我剛剛所說的問題但是我們今天要來修法但署長你剛剛所說的問題我們都知道但那麼多立委在這邊那你們的具體解決方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4981.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5002.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
就像我剛說的嘛如果不入法 你們如何去解決那你可能這個部分要跟所有委員說一下這個也要說服大家 對不對不然你講一講如果你講一講那現在大家又要堅持入法這一個一直在循環我覺得就一直在這邊打轉蘇強衛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5008.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5023.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
署長不好意思我剛剛不曉得是不是有聽漏掉還是麻煩你再稍微解釋因為我們要求的我要求的是希望這個有未成年身心障礙者子女的人等於是有兩支籤的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5024.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5043.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
等於是我們過去沒有把這個有未成年身心障礙未成年這樣的子女的人納入裡面所以我們修法要把它放進去對啊 那你現在剛剛回答的好像剛剛聽到的是室內設計在入住之前可以做什麼做什麼你本來是跟我們說你可以用韓式就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5045.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5064.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以我們才會把它說好因為上次有跟委員大家做報告我們基本上是涵是也就是那個身心障礙者是涵欲有就是欲有未成年身心障礙者我們上現在都是已經是這樣本來就是這樣子做另外一個就是說我們有在要求在相關的設計上 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5065.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5076.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
如果你確實預有的話那你室內的裝修我也不用去修我就直接去做一些處理那這樣他不但有多的錢而且他還可以有更好的居住環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5077.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5105.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好那你現在的意思是說你們本來就有這樣做可是如果你們本來就這樣做那我們為什麼會接到這麼多陳情對那所以是不是大家不夠明確的知悉還是怎麼樣所以我們才會說那好那如果不用用修法的話那是不是有一個解釋公告也讓大家安心這沒有問題對對對所以我們才說好那我們就不修法嘛但是我們也提了一個附帶決議這個我們就會到時候就發起示範給各縣市政府嘛好那這樣我們才同意嘛好那謝謝你的說明謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5110.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5136.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
還有沒有意見請內政部長這邊統一來再回應一次謝謝各位委員對於住宅法修正大家的立場都差不多也非常敬佩我們總共提出43案以上大概99%全部是集中帶第4條也表示說各位委員都對於包括要幫助弱勢包括婚育宅包括經濟弱勢都有提供自己的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5137.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5163.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
但是我想站在我們的立場上面要跟各位報告一下我剛有去查一下衛福部他們的定義裡面的經濟弱勢的人口在全台灣是2%如果是身心障礙者在全台灣是5%也就是有120萬人你如果是老年人口的話是20%有480萬人這些都要放在住宅法裡面的百分比裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5164.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5178.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那所以呢目前我們現在在處理的興建當中或是興建完成的就是社會住宅全新的社會住宅要能夠應付這麼多的這樣子的一個需求真的是杯水車薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5180.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5207.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那既然是杯水車薪的時候呢在過去一段時間啊那謝謝各位委員的協助我們把這個包租代管或者是租金補貼也納入我們的這個百萬戶的租屋家庭裡面也就是說它是一個滾動的一個方式希望能夠用比較這個大家可以接受的一個的政策來處理有關住宅法的這個修正的部分而不是全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5208.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5229.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
把它放到所谓的这个新建或者是新兴建的社会住宅里面那所以呢在行政院所抛出来的就是青年婚育宅的租屋协助里面是有提到20%那那个20%呢我们不是只有现成的这个社会住宅而是我们把包租贷款也放进去 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5230.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5250.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所謂的包租代管就是用現在的空餘屋經過包租代管這樣的仲介的程序之後因為我們會認為婚育宅必須要做所謂的無障礙空間這個的比例比較低所以婚育宅可能會受到年輕人或者因為他的一個地段是在比較淡黃區或者是他的生活區域裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5251.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5267.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以申請的人會相當的多但是我們現在看出來其實還是屬於杯水車薪我昨天有去拜訪桃園市政府桃園市政府他們也會認同就是說必須要加蓋比較多的社會住宅但是畢竟速度沒有那麼快 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5268.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5290.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那再以北三都為主的話呢目前的台北市跟新北市呢雖然仍然有社會住宅這個興建的空間但是呢需要在財務槓桿還有土地上面取得的部分呢要能夠完成這樣的程序確實是慢所以會有時間上的壓力那既然有時間上的壓力呢目前如果把所有的委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5292.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5306.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
全部放到第四條裡面的話中央跟地方政府呢確實沒有辦法有這個能力處理這一塊那又是入法那既然入法的話就會造成困擾所以我們希望說能夠取得各位委員的這個認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5308.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5332.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
就是第一個維持原來的這個弱勢的比例呢就是經濟跟弱勢社會弱勢的比例是40%但是因為我們要處理就是所謂的少子化的問題的時候呢提供10%的這個婚姻家庭呢能夠給我們一點空間剛剛我有特別提到這個婚姻家庭呢並不是每個縣市平均都是一樣的我們也去查了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5333.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5344.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
如果婚育家庭假設以新北市來看遇有未成年兩人以上戶數跟遇有未成年一人以上戶數的婚育家庭一差就差10萬戶那台北市差5萬戶桃園市也差5萬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5349.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5365.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
台中市差5萬戶那那個高雄市也差5萬戶那其他的大概就1萬2萬之間那如果用這樣的方式的話我們可能會希望能夠稍微做一下區域性的調整也就是說如果是10%的這個出租的這個婚姻家庭的話第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5368.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5391.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
能夠保留彈性讓包租代管也可以放到這一塊裡面然後這樣子對於婚姻家庭上面的尤其是他們可能是比較年輕在經濟跟社會上面的是未來大概不是弱勢但是現在是弱勢的狀況之下能夠予以協助所以我們想說修正條文可不可以就是說40%的比例給經濟跟社會弱勢不要變 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5396.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5414.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
提供至少10%比率出租與婚育家庭把它放到裡面去我們也願意每一年到立法院的內政委員會來提出就是現在社會住宅給予弱勢的比例有多高讓中央跟地方在不管是蓋 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5415.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5429.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
社會住宅或者是包租代管方面能夠趕快把這個數目字拉到我們法律的修正案裡面能夠通過的部分要不然我們真的是沒有辦法做到各位委員像我們為什麼會沒有辦法提議到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5432.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5456.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
委員裡面的這個好與不好確實在數目之上沒有辦法達到這樣子的標準那你入法過後你六個月裡面就要達到這個也不太可能所以看看各位委員是不是可以這樣處理那還有就是婚育家庭如果按照有些委員提到20%這是我剛所提到20%你一下子拉高的時候就會產生其他的排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5457.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5463.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我現在所說的排擠不是排擠一般一般去抽籤社會住宅的一般戶可能會排擠到弱勢戶會排擠到弱勢戶數量真的是不夠不是我們不願意數量真的不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5472.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5491.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那這個部分我們會再繼續跟尤其是以六都為主的這些城市再繼續跟他們加油包括土地的釋放財務的槓桿或是其他包租貸款業者的部分那可能我們這樣子的說法沒有辦法讓每一位委員的提案都能夠完全納進來但是也請委員能夠了解一下現在我們的狀況是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5497.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5520.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那再來有關剛剛那個蘇巧惠委員所提到的就是說未成年身心障礙者的部分我們也希望說第一個就是有關符合下列規定的部分呢是屬於這個身心障礙者但是蘇委員跟很多委員特別要照顧未成年身心障礙者的話我們容或用說明的方式或是有這個附帶決議的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5520.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5538.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
把它放到裡面去因為身心障礙者如果要入住社會住宅或者是未來的包租代管的話他必須要更多來自衛生福利或是社會或是這個地方政府上面在無障礙空間或者是說在衛福比例上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5539.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5558.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
資助方面的大的協助那這個要有更完整的條件否則就是抽籤抽到了身心障礙的人抽籤到社會住宅然後後續的衛生福利的照顧或者是社會福利的照顧沒有到位的話那不管是成年或未成年就沒有辦法達到照顧他們的一個美意 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5560.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5577.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那這個部分是不是我們也可以用這個附帶的方式來回應剛剛那個蘇委員跟幾位委員所提到的這個部分那有關於那個弱勢的部分的認定的話那因為我們衛福部的這個同仁有在現場也許委員可以請教他們的意見以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5581.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5595.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
請你又去聽人發言我是覺得啦因為你們自己中央宣誓就是要20%做婚姻啦你如果只做宣誓宣傳都說20%好像很漂亮你修法的時候又說我只要死就好這很奇怪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5597.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5623.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
沒有啊你就寫保留20%嘛那我的意思是說你政策宣傳你就不能這樣做嘛你如果講10%你就10%那我覺得那還我覺得還可以理解那不然這樣因為剛剛不管是部長或署長的顧慮是這樣就是說萬一有些地方比如說你剛剛講的舉例比如廉江或者是什麼地方他不見得有這麼多的需求的時候怎麼辦那不然我們這樣子啊就一樣我們寫20%保留給婚育嘛但是申請時婚育家庭數量未達時保留比率者剩餘部分不是在實現嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5626.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5635.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
也就是說你申請的時候沒有滿的時候你再釋出回一般戶嘛但你這樣是不是有政策目標但是某一些層面可以這樣做處理來討論一下我覺得剛剛既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5642.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5656.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
應該是說其實他在一開始的時候他就有說其實等於是這些被列出來的人都這些列出來的種類啦不好意思這樣講項目反正這些身分別都會等於是有兩支籤所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5657.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5685.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果變成是我們今天把這個婚姻宅的部分比較青年婚姻宅的部分再加上去寫成至少10%的話那至少10%再加上原來他就可能抽到或者是一般一般戶裡面他也去抽的我覺得就很有可能就是其實就達到20%其實是有的而且這才比較接近20%甚至是30%因為大部分去抽一般戶的還是是這一個年紀的人對 那所以我會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5687.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5711.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以我才會說等於是婚育的人是有兩支籤所以在這邊有一個強制保留至少10%再加上一般戶裡面被抽到的機遇這樣就會達到政策目標的20我另外擔心他中籤率過高在中南部萬一過高的話那又是另外一個主席我可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5714.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5727.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
麥政委 請問一下好 不好意思他可不可以坐這邊一起一起比較快的我想說他們來來去去太滿了等一下就對不對因為黃婕還有其他人等一下對啊就太滿怕沒位子坐好 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5729.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5750.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
對 好 我想說我們明確我們民眾黨這邊想要說明確保留一定的比例給育兒家庭不限小孩的人數就是也是回應剛才大家在講我們部長也有講說社會主宰 包租代管 其他我們是不是把這些不管是署長還是部長還有我們要求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5753.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5776.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
放在那個法條的說明這樣子的話就是15%還是10%或者還是20%就是說明他們如果達到每一個縣市的是不是這樣子的一個比例說明這樣是不是大家就會更有彈性了不是嗎對不對我們不是要定在我們的法裡面在我們的說明裡面就讓他們可以說不同的縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5777.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5790.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
他們的可以到百分之幾但是我們最高的要求是這樣但是他不同的縣市有不同的做法放在我們的說明裡面這樣是不是會更清楚以上謝謝部裡面這邊有沒有要補充說明的針對剛才我提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5807.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5835.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
數字是多少的問題對那個跟麥委員報告一下我剛講了就10%是至少那我們每一年會有滾動式的跟大家報告就是說明年譬如說明年是12或13後年是15這樣慢慢往上增加因為你現在訂了20就表示說我們明年的下半年就開始做到20%這樣我們做不到而且呢我剛為什麼特別提到包租代管業者包租代管業者最喜歡租給婚禦宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5842.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5844.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個重點是要放在說明裡面在說明裡面寫清楚不是 但是他剛又講到有10% 15% 20% |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5850.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5867.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
說明欄導師我不會特別因為剛才署長他不是說因為不打到這樣子的話他就是內在說明其他我們是也可以內在說明如果有一些的不同縣市的生育率或者婚姻關係的比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5868.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5873.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
就可以再說我們再說哪一個縣市比較少哪一個縣市比較多我們是可以在裡面說達到這樣就不用因為你們一直強調說不要列入法嘛是不是要列入我們的法後面的那個說明這樣子是不是大家會更清楚這樣子的意思你們也有彈性去作業這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5890.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5919.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
不是署長我覺得會不會其實你從剛剛到現在應該是換一個說法因為你一直變成是說做不到什麼但是其實這樣聽你的話在抽絲剝繭下來其實你的話應該不是這樣我們的政策目標是婚育宅要有20%我們以20%的婚育宅為政策目標而經過這幾年的實務運行狀況就是在一般宅當中一般戶當中也有相當高比例的婚育家庭重簽率 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5920.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5938.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以根據過往的實務經驗之後我們現在行政院提出的條文也綜合各位委員意見就是要保留一定比例的我們行政院提出了一個綜合版本就是至少10%以上的婚育保留宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5939.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5963.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
因為這樣加上依過去經驗得到的一般戶的重簽率一般戶當中的婚育青年的重簽率就會達成目標20%以上啊這樣子的說法的話我們其實應該是大部分的人都可以接受因為就達到了我們大家都想要的所有裡面最後的結果這棟房子 這棟社宅裡面20%是婚育家庭嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5964.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5977.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
對不對那你這樣子我們也可以跟大家講說其實我們真的很努力爭取但是因為過往的經驗實務考量和現在政策的需要說法應該是是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5981.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6005.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
你這樣聽起來負面的我們會覺得好像是做不到但不是其實不是 是根據那個是不是剛剛蘇小慧委員提到的就是說可能在食物上剛剛講的加上婚姻災跟一般戶的那可能剛剛講說有可能就已經達到本來你們的這個數據就20%以上那針對這個部分是不是有真正的數據可以請蘇長說明一下我們以目前統計的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6010.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6038.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們以目前統計的就是說現在來講大概北桃中台北是桃園台中大概育有未成年子女就是說有婚姻家庭大概就占了四成總數應該是說他現在有可能有兩支籤的狀態下他已經占了這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6043.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6070.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
但是我剛也在說明嘛所以我才會說所以我才會說北桃中可能是北北桃中啦所以我的意思是說第一個越往南越往南其實問題會越大越往南問題越大第二個當然對他來講他一樣會保有如果我們單獨列出一個其實最好的狀況是他會有三支籤最差的狀況他也有兩支籤 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6072.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6090.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以我們是希望說不要因為你一旦入了法我臉直接興建的社宅通通都要單獨列通通都要單獨列所以我們才會說我們現在為什麼一邊做一邊試一邊做一邊試那為什麼先喊餓死就是我們先來測試看看現在狀況實務上的狀況可以做到什麼樣那 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6095.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6106.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們以那個現在裡面來講大概最明顯大概是萬華NG萬華NG的登記婚姻宅的比例就明顯低於其他的為什麼 因為那就是一個社區的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6108.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6126.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以我可不可以再好 那我再想一下我再確認一下所有的委員不分黨派都非常關心國家少子化的問題也希望幫青年人口爭取更多的這個夢想權益所以我們都認為應該要有婚育宅好 這是我們大家共同的理想 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6126.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6151.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
可是食物上來講目前最會去抽社宅的其實就是差不多這個年紀左右的家庭也好 青年也好所以食物上有高比例的社宅地區本來就已經有四成以上的婚育家庭了那我們今天把婚育這件事情入法一是態度 二是保障萬一將來有時候食物上面沒有到10% 20%的時候我也強制你一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6155.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6161.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
放進去 我保障你這是地板我們今天設一個地板我們把這件事情表明了國家的態度立法委員的態度而且有一個地板的保障但是實務上如果我們把這個地板的保障再加上第三支籤的權利放進去萬一過高的話其實你整個也會打亂的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6176.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6184.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以我們同意現在我們試著 我沒有代表你們同意我們試著同意行政院的這個版本變成是說至少10%因為這樣還是其實確實是已經達到政策目標20%以上也是各黨派本來在講的這個20%以上我覺得是符合每一個大家目前的狀態不曉得大家這樣解釋同不同意對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6203.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6228.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
對 因為這種寫法也讓你有地區性的彈性啦政策的彈性啦那請教一下那個部長和署長就是那除了北桃中剛剛講是佔四成嘛北北桃中剛剛是說佔四成了嘛那表示如果是百分之二十大概也沒有問題嘛那如果是其他呢其他的剛剛講的對 我知道我說其他的目前大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6230.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6247.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
因為你剛剛提到說南部因為我們一定就是全國所以我們才會建議說至少10%就在考慮因為就像我們已經蓋到連離島外島都有了所以我們也要考慮這些狀況所以你剛剛提到說南部可能比較沒辦法達成對 南部還有離島外島應該比較難對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6252.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6276.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
也不能說比較沒有需求啦對所以現在有這個數據嗎南部的大概是還沒有 因為我們往南部的是明年才會開始我們大概已經從一般的人口的調查狀況就是說以老齡化的指數來講老齡化還有年輕占的比例來講你們調查的預估大概會是多少所以也不太敢確定因為為什麼 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6277.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6302.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
因為我們譬如說像我們蓋到了像潮州萬丹那個人口都只有5萬那個人口都只有5萬左右那種就是很明顯是農業鄉鎮所以我才會說我們要考慮的是像這一塊那甚至到了連江連江市戶籍人口都是老人居多 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6304.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6330.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那現有的工作人口是基本上戶口大部分都不在那裡所以才會說這個問題才值得大家去慎重所以我才會建議是說保留變成至少10%這樣會比較穩定啦台東應該也很難我們盡量加油啦所以我來講 大家保留一個機會 要祭祀十 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6333.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6349.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
而且我們台東一口氣蓋了三個一口氣蓋了三個總共五百多戶因為台東的問題又是很長那個鄉鎮又距離又很遠那個其他委員有沒有要補充意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6352.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6367.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
因為現在有兩個層面的問題嘛一個是有沒有因為三支籤的問題所以排擠一般戶的問題這一個然後另外一個是有些地方不見得碰得到這個標準的問題嘛那我是覺得如果你都這樣講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6369.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6387.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們還是回到之所以要寫這個政策的初衷嘛無非就是鼓勵當初最早國民黨這邊提案的版本就是鼓勵生小孩嘛所以一開始我們只講育嘛沒有講婚嘛對啊 你現在不講婚但是你比例都很低嘛因為我還再次強調我們本來設定的比例是50% |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6388.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6415.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
是一般戶的一半要留給有小孩的人這是當初大家期望達到的政策目標那當然嘛就是這目標理想是很高的但你一下子又放寬了資格變成結婚了也可以進來不見得是保障有小孩的人然後一下子又把比例從50%一路降到10%我覺得這落差有點大要不然這樣子好了因為今天條文很多啦這條先我們消化一下好不好我們走後面的條文然後再回過頭來討論這樣好不好我覺得是這樣子啦我們思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6415.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6423.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
好啦好啦這條我們先暫時先保留我們繼續熬一個啦好啦來下一條下一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6428.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6432.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我剛剛有說過我會再找地方政府跟國土署這邊再做溝通謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6451.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6480.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那第五條所以你不會問這邊是不予增訂嘛對不對你不會問先保留先保留先保留OK好那第五條那第五條部分沒底的沒底的沒處理的沒底的沒處理的沒底的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理的沒處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6482.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6502.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
如果沒有在好 來 阿傑第十條來吧尤其是你委員請翻譯這個這一條也是一樣啦就是租市場透明化啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6503.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6520.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為這個我們也是跟內政部也溝通很久了啦因為現在看起來本來是說期待說看一下租賃專法有沒有進度嘛但是到目前為止租賃專法好像也還沒草案什麼都還沒有進到立法院所以那到底我們要怎麼來做處理我這邊再一次聽一聽內政部的意見啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6520.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6537.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們這邊就認為說因為你現在你內政部現在預期要提出的租賃專法裡面甚至都非常嚴格你要有甚至有進到什麼租期限制等等的深水區本來就引發很多社會爭議但是我覺得各方都可以先接受的平衡點是租屋市場的改革裡面一定要先做透明化嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6538.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6552.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那我們現在透明化的程度要做在哪裡要修在哪一個法條怎麼樣處理 時間表是什麼我覺得要很明確啦所以當初是因為這東西行政院這邊的節奏並不是特別明確所以我們那時候也要提租賃專法那時候提的是包租代管的的實價登錄嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6553.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6566.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
然後這邊是在住宅法裡面也做同步修正但到最後你你都是不是匯流就是整合嗎但是我們要先清楚知道他的他的tempo是什麼他的內容是什麼他的內涵是什麼他的強度在哪裡所以我覺得今天還是花點時間討論一下好不好請內政部這邊做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6571.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6592.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那個地政司司長跟委員報告一下因為這一條主要是要把租補的一個交易資訊直接轉成實價登錄對外揭示那可能在執行上面會有幾個問題第一個可能會影響房東的出租意願那第二個就是現在租補都是房科申報的資料所以那個資料可能會有一些比較有問題所以那個可能也會造成一個市場資訊的一個不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6594.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6620.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以我們現在大概整個一個推動的方向第一個就有關於透明化第一個有關於仲介跟轉租約的部分我們現在已經要求就已經實價登錄了所以那個部分現在都可以查詢那第二個對於租補的一個相關資料我們現在是以去識別化的方式用統計的資訊來每半年對外提供所以這樣一樣是可以讓民眾來做一個租屋或是房東房客的一個租屋的參考那以上跟委員報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6622.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6646.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那所以我們是建議這一條如果直接把朱博的資料轉為類似實價登錄直接個案提供的話可能會對於市場的影響會更大這樣謝謝市長那個狄漢文這邊還沒有意見你們要再補充說明嗎沒有我對因為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6649.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6670.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
比較我們為什麼會定一個區間或是一個範圍其實嚴格來講就是怕定毛效應因為定毛效應其實是滿危險的一件事所以我們才會一直是用區間然後定期公佈的概念去做其實就是這個概念所以我們才會建議在整個市場不是很穩定其實這個東西一直在變 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6671.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6693.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
但是我們現在的幸運是以我們現在租金補貼的狀態因為它的房屋 屋領都是偏舊所以它現在還相對穩定所以我們也不希望說用那種太細的公布去就怕現在包租公 包租婆去搞這種定毛效應出來的時候我們就很擔心整個會往上拉這樣反而造成租金補貼對民眾的一個衝擊會新的衝擊會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6702.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6705.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我們其他委員有意見嗎我先問一下大家好了 反正博弈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6711.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6740.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
其實牛委員這個用意是好的啦但是這個可能時間還是要繼續拉長讓整個租屋市場的這個穩定度可以在我們的所有的包含社宅包含所有這些包租代管的業者的量大的時候那可能才慢慢的來揭露這些長期來講當然會是好的但是短期來講我會比較傾向害怕這個內政部現在擔心的租屋市場的這些穩定度 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6740.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6759.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
會造成這些包租公包租婆他可能會認為說我怎麼租房子價格比較便宜我怎麼租的比這一條路上的其他的人還便宜但是房屋老舊還是有它的一定的這個差別所以我比較傾向說利益是好的但是我們可能要拉長時間來處理這個問題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6763.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6781.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這條我建議我們一樣先保留一下一樣消化一下好不好因為47條也有談到相關的事啦主要是因為這次修法版本實在太多啦然後有些每個概念分散在不同的法條啦所以我覺得hold一下好不好這樣也不要耽誤大家時間OK那這樣這條我們保留齁那我們接下來下一條第15條第15條是15條15條亂世保 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6789.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6793.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
主席布袋內又不免了啦訓政委員黃婕有 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6800.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6803.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
針對第15條的修正現在因為目前的免稅額每個月僅1.5萬元那在2025的物價跟租金水準之下明顯的已經過時了所以本席是提出將免稅額度調升至2.5萬元就是希望讓這項政策能夠更貼近市場的設計的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6821.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6844.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那尤其是我們看到就說依內政部的統計目前適用公益出租人的戶數大概36萬財政估計損失大概是5.86億元而超過1萬5千元租金是公益出租人建樹僅6萬5千戶所以如果將免稅額提高到新台幣2萬5千元它的這個稅水應不至於過拒 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6845.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6869.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
而且因為事實上現在我們蓋社宅的進度是嚴重的落後所以如果能夠把這個免稅額提高到2.5萬元也是鼓勵全國各地的房東願意透明化那他們也願意進入這個社宅體系公民租用所以我想以這樣的一個方式把全國的這個閒置空屋轉化為社會資源這才是真正的立國立民 謝謝黃先生有什麼發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6874.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6895.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好那我這條有提案就是希望這個公益出租人的租金收入的免稅額度可以用改為區域的住宅指標那我覺得因地制宜非常重要是因為這個額度其實對於各區的房東來說誘因的差距非常大就例如說雙北啊其實看一下租金的中位數其實都已經超過1.5萬的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6896.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6904.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那對他們來說就是如果他們的租金中位數都已經是可能在1.8然後甚至超過甚至在雙北有一些租整戶的還超過3萬塊那這個免稅額度對他來說真的幫助不大那以我的選區來說我的選區在高雄也算是蠻精華地段的那中位數其實也都超過15000的這樣的免稅門檻了 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6919.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6934.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以這樣子租金最貴的物件都集中在我選區的話就會就會覺得你這個免稅額度真的有辦法鼓勵公益出租人嗎所以是不是各區改成一些各區的住宅指標或者是可以做到因地制宜你才真的可以讓這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6935.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6955.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
租金最貴的精華地段的房東他們真的願意把空屋來釋出所以我覺得這樣其實也才可以真的幫助到租屋主啦你租的市場真的物件變多了嘛大家才會真的讓這一些空屋可以有更好的利用然後房東也才真的願意把這一些他過去他可能寧願都閒置在那邊耶以我的選區來說這些房東寧願房子就是放著 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6959.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6965.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那你們要鼓勵他們出來出租啊那拜託可以多給一點誘因那要不要改一下指標好 謝謝那個財政部這邊委員的意見回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6979.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6995.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟我跟委員報告目前這個房東的租金這個免稅額度1.5萬就是全年18萬那我們房客也有免稅額度房客他可以報租金扣除了目前我們所得稅法規定也是18萬所以房東房客目前都18萬是很平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6996.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7014.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那因為其實房東還是經濟比較優勢的族群那如果房東的免稅額度拉高比房客再高的話那我們覺得可能會有公平性的問題畢竟房東是比較經濟優勢而且他是收租金的人這是第一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7015.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7035.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那第二個考量是說目前1.5萬我們有去統計他報稅的情形其實1.5萬其實對於大多數的房東是足夠適用的我們去統計這個租金沒有超過這個包括公益出租人跟這個社宅的這個房東他的租金沒有超過1.5萬的比例高達71%也就是71%的房東 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7040.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7058.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
的这个租金收入是在这个1.5万以下的所以这个免税额度是完全够用他都扣掉了那纵使房东他的租金收入有超过1.5万那另外他还可以减除费用又可以减除一个额度那这个费用可以减除至少43%或是再减除60%剩下的57%或者是40%才是他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7065.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7073.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這個租金的所得那另外他報稅的時候又可以再減除他自己的免稅額跟相關扣除額所以層層減下來其實房東的稅負其實已經其實相對很輕了啦相對我們一般薪資所得者這個房東的租金收入已經很輕了所以我們建議說這個額度是不是為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7086.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7101.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為而且房東其實他的減免不只這個所得稅他還有房屋稅地價稅他也都可以按照自住的稅率最優惠的稅率來來適用房屋稅跟地價稅所以其實房東的租稅優惠其實項目還蠻多的以上說明我要跟那個徐政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7108.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7131.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
其實剛剛我想財政部這邊的說明事實上我覺得你就是看著數字在說話而已而不是真正在實務市場為什麼現在很多房東不願意把他的房子做為公益的這個活動就是因為你的稅賦的減免只有1.5萬對他來說他就乾脆直接租人他能夠受到的經濟效益反而比較多所以你剛剛說雖然他是經濟弱勢可我們現在討論的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7134.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7139.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個實務面啦所以如果房屋參與這個公寓出租或包租貸款是要承擔房屋折舊跟管理風險所以如果免稅額度跟不上它現在真實的市場它當然不願意拿出來作為包租貸款所以針對這個部分我們是認為其實這個1.5萬其實從跟2025年的物價跟租賃水準已經是過時了所以本席才會提出說希望能夠提高到2.5萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7158.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7178.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那當然這個金額是可以討論啦但是重點是我是覺得我們必須要去了解現在實務上為什麼很多房東不願意拿出來就是因為他只是想直接租給一般的人的話他不用承擔那麼多那他還可以這個賺得更多那為什麼他要作為這個包租貸款的一個公益債謝謝那個博文先生黃學文先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7186.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7212.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
好那我的意見也是覺得說那不能因為說已經給房東很優惠了所以我們就停在這裡那我們到底要怎麼往下走呢因為我們的目標還是希望更多房東願意把房子拿出來租嘛希望大家當公益出租人那你誘因不夠怎麼辦很明顯你說1.5萬已經要已經對房東很優惠了但事實上他誘因就是不夠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7213.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7228.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
他就是不願意拿出來那所以我除了請教財政部之外我也想問一下內政部有沒有更好的方式如果你們覺得免稅額度已經緊繃了那有沒有其他的做法願意讓房東把房子拿出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7229.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7243.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
可不可以告訴我們幾個你們在做的對在做的方式如果這一條我們提的解方你們覺得不好那什麼東西更好你們提一個決議或者是接下來的政策方向那不然這一條我們一樣還是的只能保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7248.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7260.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
謝謝主席 來剛剛我對參政部提出來這個什麼目前有70%它的租金是在1.5萬以下我覺得這嚴重的跟現實社會狀況不符 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7262.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7288.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那為什麼會嚴重的跟現實狀況不符不是財政部你的資料有問題而是就是有大量的超過1.5萬的人不願意來這邊申報這個是問題所在所以為什麼今天黃婕委員為什麼今天我們很多不分黨派委員都有提案希望財政部可以來檢討這個1.5萬的免稅額度就是問題就是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7290.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7314.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我想問一下財政部這個1.5萬已經施行多久了多久沒有做調整了這個也可以跟委員會報告一下我們希望這一個也不是說內政部就可以決定希望財政部可以具體的提出的免稅額度包含跟房客的免稅額度來做一個討論我覺得還是要提高不然跟台灣現實的社會狀況確實不符謝謝內政部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7322.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7351.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
跟各位說明一下因為我們上次修法是在110年那時候是提高到這個1.5萬那但是呢我印象原來是1萬1萬那我說明這第一個啦第二個就是說我們當時也有條文就是說我們這第23條的第二項第二款它裡面有寫就是說出租期間的租金所得必要的損耗減除是可以提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7352.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7376.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那如果沒有的話就是照租金的收入的60%計算也就是說我今天超出的部分還可以再扣下一切超出的部分還可以扣下一切這是第一個要跟他說明就是並不是我超出的部分通通都算不是本來條例裡面就有考慮到房東他有一些必要性的支出這是第一個要跟他說明第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7376.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7403.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我們在當時在討論這個提案的時候第二個關鍵點是當時所引用的資料的確今天是社會住宅今天能租得起租金補貼然後租金補貼符合他的所得跟身分筆記都有一定的限制尤其是所得這件事情那我們以現在租屋的所得租屋佔所得平均大概是25%到30%來算我如果是1萬5那我可能是收入已經是4萬5到6萬之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7406.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7427.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
四萬五到六萬之間那就單一房間喔 單一房間在算所以當時是用這樣的概念也就是說這些四萬五到六萬之間在一般縣市我們所列出來符合所得的那個租金符合申請租金補貼來講它就是差不多剛好到那個數字也就差不多剛好到那個那我今天如果提高到兩萬五好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7430.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7447.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
也就相對來講我的所得區間是不是也要跟著拉高也就是說我如果用25%算那我收入10萬以下的通通都可以申請租金補貼他反過來就會回推這個概念都會回推這個概念所以這中間是他相對之間是有一個聯動關係的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7449.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7475.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
當然就是相對之有連動關係我們現在租金補貼台北市是5萬7月所得是5萬7那一般縣市是4萬5到5萬之間所以跟各位報告他其實當然相對應就是說這個免稅跟相對之間是有連動我覺得我如果去提高的話會不會改天又是另外一個議題來了你這個都提高到這樣那你現在租金所得比 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7477.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7494.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
符合住的人的資格我是不是所得要再提高那這樣其實相對來講就整個社會的關懷那其實又是另外一個議題所以我才會跟大家報告因為我們今天是做社會住宅當然基本的定義是會跟他的所得會有一些連動所以才會跟大家做這樣的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7496.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7512.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這其實也跟財政部持續有在討論另外一種就是說我們是希望如果說後續要鼓勵釋出空屋或是鼓勵房東釋出更多的話其實現在目前在研究的是擁有第三房的稅率 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7514.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7532.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
就是說你如果有第三房的或者是你是想轉的那我可不可以相關的這一個條件能夠去刺激他鼓勵更多的空屋來釋出所以我是建議說我們是今天用負債決議的方式去要求我們來做持續做檢討第二個就是說去鼓勵更多釋出的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7537.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7545.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
是反而是在其他的稅務來講能夠去充分做檢討那這樣的話來鼓勵更多房東來釋出就這樣說明這個說明之後那個提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7557.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7582.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那對啊 那是不是你我們一個附帶決議就是說要定期檢討這個租金區間的市場價格指標對 然後來訂定這個滾動式調整免稅額度以及就是研擬更多鼓勵公益出租人的誘因把這兩件事情都放進去這邊也OK啦 沒人見徐政委 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7585.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7611.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我想剛剛署長有提到的大概是現行的一個狀況我們提到的其實就是實務上面對的一個問題既然現在社會住宅事實上它興建的進度其實是嚴重的落後所以其實還有很多的房源是需要公益的出租代管的這些房東願意來釋出當然就是說我想最主要的目的是這樣剛剛署長已經有提到說可以有一些替代的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7611.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7622.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以我也同意從由附帶決議這邊來去好不好那這樣我們15條就按照現行條文啊就後面用個附帶決議來好 可是那我們接下來當然來賓不容許16條欸 喬惠惠沒在沒在 這樣下一條16條沒有18條18條是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7641.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7641.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
黃學委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7655.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7673.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好 這一條我有提案那我在提案說明的時候其實有講其實就是輪候制輪候制我們已經講很久了那當然一開始是跟我說因為存量不足的時候輪候制沒有意義但是我是覺得這個平台遲早要建立的早建立晚建立都要讓大家來登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7674.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7703.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
因為不管怎麼樣你們都要先抓一下市場到底有多少需求嘛然後大家的房型大家要的區段在哪裡這個你們一定都有這個平台的話對你們來說也比較好掌握到底設宅的存量要到怎麼樣才足夠然後哪邊要的是哪一類的房型然後大概的家庭的模式是真的是婚育的青年家庭居多還是其實單身者的需求居多這個你們也會比較好掌握所以我很希望說這個登記平台我們就把它建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7704.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7710.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
未來可以施行輪候制的時候也用得到好那接下來那個麥政委員主席我們現在內政部用的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7719.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7739.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
租金補租的問卷來評估就是社會租宅的需求樣本我們覺得這樣子是不對的因為回收率只有22.4%這不是掌握需求這是拿就是市政的資料決定需求蓋多少或者蓋在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7739.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7743.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
蓋什麼房型所以住宅法這18條早就寫得很清楚就是主管機關應評估住宅需求總量區位還有餘新班戶數但到現在都沒有真正的落實所以等於就是違背立法的本意所以我們這邊內政部有說就是說成豬資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7768.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7775.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
資料 界界平台但我們只看到的就是房子蓋好後處理申請的名單不是先掌握要不要蓋或者蓋了多少 蓋在哪裡這根本就是我們看的資料就是答非所問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7787.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7789.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
所以我們主張建議全國統一住宅需求的登記平台讓有需求的民眾先登記一次真正的才能依據真實需求來規劃住宅技術不是問題因為我們看到台北市已經在做了修法只是為了全國統一也補齊資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7812.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7820.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
借阶的法律的授权这个就是我们民众党的一个说明谢谢好谢谢那现在请张志伦委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7822.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7849.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好 謝謝主席 各位同仁本席這邊也支持住宅法第18條的修正就是主宰機該應建制重點是社會住宅需求登記平台當時我記得我有質詢過署長署長當時也同意說應該整個社會住宅應該要設立一個平台不管是統計整個社宅的數量然後整個登記的一個狀況才知道說哪邊的社宅的需求比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7849.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7866.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那雖然內政部現在是有這個自衛住宅的需求調查可是是抽樣不是不定期辦理所以跟實際的這個資訊跟實際常常會有落差所以我還是要拜託就是說因為這個社宅有分中央跟地方唯有用一個整個的規劃系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7868.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7893.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
讓這個全國有需要的民眾及時登記然後提供必要的資料讓政府可以掌控總量以及到底是要哪個區位以及戶型等等以及公共設施的需求讓資源的配置可以更完整以及未來大家有很多民眾重複登記或是登記完了以後等待遙遙無期然後讓大家未來不需要再重複登記節省民眾的時間跟行政成本等等狀況所以我覺得這條的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7894.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7909.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
是可以提高行政效率而且可以增加社宅的公平性到社宅的规划跟民众的需求才可以真正的接轨以上谢谢谢谢我们请黄建豪委员发言好谢谢黄建斌召委的这个我是黄建豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7911.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7927.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那個我是要針對第18條的部分我是有跟徐新委員共同提案談這個所謂取得輪候制的部分我是要跟這個部長也跟我們署長來分享我的觀念因為剛剛前面第4條我們有參與到因為比較晚到但是包含第4條的時候大家討論說到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7928.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7951.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
北三都到台中桃園台北的狀況到底哪些人需要做婚育宅哪些人需要有婚生子女需要住這種社會住宅然後哪些屬於其他的其他縣市的部分他們比較小的縣市他們可能沒有這麼多需求所以光是我們剛剛光是在討論第10條的時候我看直播的時候我們在10% 20%的部分在爭論不休但原因就是因為我們沒有第18條這個東西我們不知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7952.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7977.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
到底現在各城市有哪些的需求那因為現在社宅部分除了中央興建之外有些地方政府興建那包含之前也提到說未來也希望鼓勵民間來幫忙興辦所謂社會住宅各種政策可能還在提出來所以如果我們沒辦法掌握到各城市它的區位上有什麼不一樣各城市的真正需求那包含說內政部也好或各地方政府也好甚至未來想要進場的民間興辦社宅的部分也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7978.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7998.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他們都我們都沒有一個很全面性的圖像知道說到底哪裡哪裡還真的需要哪裡已經不需要那已經蓋太多了我覺得現在大家都用感覺的用體感的然後包含說就包含抽樣的因為這裡我覺得這裡不是民調這個跟民調不太一樣這是實際上有這個需求的這個人人在哪裡這個是我覺得政府在掌握數據上應該更明確一點因為包含說 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7999.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8022.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
每次我們在提很相關質詢的時候我們看到的數據都是內政部後來提供給我們但是我們在事前並沒有辦法確實掌握各地方政府或各地方各城市他需要的人數長怎麼樣那還是要回到剛剛的問題就是包含說我們在第10條修正的時候40%是屬於保障弱勢這個我們沒有問題但是剩下的多少比例用來做婚育宅或各城市他可能他各城市的婚生比例其實也都不太一樣也有地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8023.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8050.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
他發展很快有好的就業機會所以他可能婚生的這個比例會高一點但是如果沒有的部分那可能他需要婚生婚姻宅的這個比例又相當低一點所以在每個城市的部分的調整也都狀況不一樣所以我覺得如果能夠把18條入法讓他輪候制讓大家能夠確實的去了解自己的讓政府掌握到各地的需求的話我覺得這對整個法案的這個社會住宅的這個政策才有這邊的幫助以上 謝謝謝謝 那麼請王美惠召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8051.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8054.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是在這十八條 我覺得每一個縣市去的完成的時間不一樣因為我覺得 你們如果在每一個縣市的完成的半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8067.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8073.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
來調查可能會更加清楚、更加實在啦不然你說一句話變成這樣你們兩黨情他寫的一定記的兩黨奧我們對他們的完成跟一定記的不一定一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8084.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8095.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
大家說實在的 我們去這裡的社會主宰就是說真的會到位啦 不是隨便說的去多少雖然不夠的選擇 也要讓當地的人了解說我們的當地現在要去多少有多少可以來登記 它清楚合理了啦 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8108.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8135.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
感謝我們會招委我們這邊來回應一下其實這個議題這也是好多年其實它最早是從輪候制這個概念出來輪候制這個概念然後後來要去提到需求登記平台但是需求登記平台在我們來看因為各地的完成時間都不一樣但是對一個人來講譬如說我現在在台北念書那我一定是可能北北我都去登記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8136.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8164.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
可是如果這個是兩年後不管啊因為兩年後可能你去去台中我畢業了我去台中工作我去哪裡工作可是你登記在上面了原來奧爾茲這樣你登記了你就要去處理那你登記了結果你人根本就跑到台中去了你跑到台中去了那這個就變一個超大的許願值然後你變成每天都在處理這些那他也可能我預想我也要在那裡工作我就通通把你登記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8165.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8193.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那你這個數量就會變暴增數量其實是暴增而且變成整個不管是中央或地方政府的主管機關都疲於奔命在處理這些事情因為每個人的對自己的規劃的願景是不一樣也有可能實務上就差距很大所以我才建議說但是怎麼樣提早讓更多民眾知道這件事是有好處的所以我是建議是說是應該我們要提早來公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8194.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8215.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那我們現在的做法都是拿到死照才敢去公告我們現在做法是拿到死照才敢去公告那時候也是為了怕怕這個就是說時間不夠那所以或者是說時間不夠準確才但是我是覺得對很多民眾來講提早讓他知道其實是蠻重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8216.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8233.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
提早讓他知道 是嗎雖然說我們現在在網路上都可以查得到但是很多民眾不一定會認真去查這件事情那怎麼樣提早讓民眾知道第二個建立輪候制現在各縣市政府現在推的都有輪候制只是大家輪候制的方式不太一樣而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8234.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8248.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我覺得輪候制這個事情可以寫但是不要去說一定要限制是哪個輪候制或者是說應該要把應該也不是寫輪候制就是說它的候補的方式應該要有清楚的一個定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8250.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8271.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我來補充一下署長他考慮到的是實務面但是各個委員所提到的部分我是覺得說我傾向同意但是要修正文字修正什麼文字就是說第一個如果有提出假性需求的話對於中央政府在評估譬如說每個人都是要兩年五年之後但是他已經有到別的地方去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8272.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8300.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那這個會變成假性需求的話會造成包括中央跟地方政府在財務評估或是社會住宅評估太膨脹這反而會造成我們非常大的困擾但是因為他的社會需求社宅的需求的登記平台他是希望能夠統一化雖然我們現在只有跟台北市有有討論過但是其他都沒有討論過會剛剛署長跟組長他們所碰到的問題會碰到第一個我們未來可不可以借接他的財稅資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8302.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8323.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為他如果沒有借財稅資料是不是符合社會住宅登記的資格那第一關就要先刷掉但是現在中央的財稅資料是不可能跟那個地方政府做嫁接的這是一個戶籍因為是內政部主管我們跟地方上我們可以自己內部來處理這是我們碰到比較大的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8323.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8351.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那還有一個就是剛剛所提到的這個假性需求過多的狀況之下所以我們可不可以把文字再做修正不要講成說你只要有樹木支出來然後你兩年後你要設宅就要蓋出來我覺得這個太簡單跟這個對但是這樣的一個需求登記的平台在合法合規的狀況之下譬如說這個人他已經兩年之後他的戶籍譬如說本來在台中市念書他兩年後已經不在台中市 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8352.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8369.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
可能我們在做這個update的時候他資料可能就被wave掉了就是被刪除掉了他已經不可能在台中申請社宅了所以這個部分的實際上的做法讓我們有點時間去處理那不要太詳盡因為越詳盡就是把行政機關綁得越死 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8374.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8394.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
地方上就是做不到我要跟各位報告我們每一條條文國土署很認真他都會跟每個縣市尤其是六都都會討論不是說我們在那邊隨便講的討論過了以後他們確實困難度非常大那只不過我們是一起來提出來而已提供給各位參考好嗎各位的想法怎麼樣那個林徐庭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8396.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8422.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我覺得蠻好部長至少明確宣示因為我覺得這一條大概是大家都覺得要過就是說目標上當然要朝向輪候制當然你輪候制的前提是我們涉財總量要足夠他才會整個政策效果才會長出來既然現在大家都往這個方向去我是覺得就同步進行文字要修正大概需要多少的時間還是我們這一條一樣大家也要來消化一下順便產生一下新的文字還是現在已經長出來了就大家來討論張榮路委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8427.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8440.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我覺得大家思考的角度也是對的內政部他們說難處理也是對的實際上也是這樣不過我覺得讓民眾如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8442.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8460.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們現行條文是主管機關應評估總量怎樣但這都是你們評估沒有納入民眾的需求的資訊沒有納入民眾需求的資訊如果這18條我們把登記拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8461.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8475.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
把登記拿掉就比如說主管機關應建置社會住宅需求平台然後並定期統計分析其需求資訊等等的就是把登記的部分拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8476.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8491.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我不知道這樣子我覺得比較符合所有委員的想法內政部也可以去處理那也不會說你們所設計的社會宅全部你們沒有考慮到市場的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8493.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8520.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
就是自己想 自己做你會全國都一樣但如果你有更多的資訊大家的需求你如果有這個需求平台可能北部的他需要的可能是小坪數或什麼的南部需要大坪數你們可以借這個也去統計資料你們的未來在設計社會宅的這個你們會有更明確的數字我的建議是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8522.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8548.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
黃江委員補充說明好 謝謝趙偉我還是要回應一下我們署長跟內政部剛剛提的因為你們剛剛提到比較像是說我蓋好之後讓大家來輪候讓大家來登記來掌握需求但是我們其實我當初我們訂這個18條的目的跟希望是說真的是要讓中央政府讓整體掌握說各地不同的狀況就像我講六都裡面就即便是台中跟台北甚至跟高雄它的狀況一定是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8549.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8564.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以我也想問說就是像包含內政部現在要怎麼樣去知道說各地要蓋多少社宅這個數字你們怎麼來的那如果今天有這個平台的話你們是不是就比較有明確的方向能夠知道所以就是我覺得我們的方向是這樣希望能夠往這個方向走以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8565.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8590.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我可不可以再回應一下就是說是不是讓我們修正一下文字因為這個在規範中央的內政部其實也會對縣市地方政府有壓力那縣市地方政府的壓力就是在於說如果那邊突然暴增很多的話那縣市地方政府他的興建設宅的速度又不夠快那其實他需要有其他的一個備變措施或其他的這個援助的方案來幫忙處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8592.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8617.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那但是呢如果寫得非常的細區位房型社會福利公共設施這些其實就又恢復到原來的部分所以是不是把它再簡化一些就是第一個讓社會住宅的登記是一個透明化讓大家知道這個方向是多少譬如說北北桃中或是南高雄等等這些合在一起是多少戶讓大家有個概念也比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8618.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8636.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那我們同時呢也經過一個實名制的一個登記或者實名制的需求的方式的話可以刪除就是到處去登記啦也有人到處去登記你現在是因為是申請現在是申請但是他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8638.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8657.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對啊對啊對啊我們來設計我們來設計他不能到處去登記那個那個我補充一下啦剛剛意思就是說因為你剛剛有講嘛大概從資料嫁接兩部分一個是戶籍資料一個是稅務資料嘛那這個東西只要大家能夠講好為什麼要修在住宅法裡面就是要有專案來抓種嘛你才有機會去處理這個事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8658.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8685.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那你如果戶籍資料包含實名制登記等等都有那你所謂的假性需求你就可以做大我不敢講百分之百的判斷但你可以做大方向的判斷嘛比如說有一個人他登記了20處涉宅需求但他就是20個你如果設計實名制登記的話他就是你就知道這20個需求其實是一個需求嘛所以你的假性需求的問題是可以被處理的嘛我認為技術上都是可以被處理的那既然現在大家講文字的修正跟濃縮嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8686.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8707.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對啊所以我是覺得這個登記平台無論如何是要做啦我覺得我們立場是非常清楚啦那但是保留一些文字調整的空間大家商量一下看有沒有辦法達成共識這一點我也是OK的啦對我們保留一下好不好我們先保留然後看文字怎麼修正就說不然要什麼時候時間先可以馬上提供嗎還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8707.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8721.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
因為每個人等一下 我要說一下你們有好幾個人的條文不是 我要說一下我們第18條本來原來的條文裡面就沒有到登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8724.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8745.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
18條的條文本來就沒有登記這個你看現行條文本來就沒有所以我才會說你把登記拿掉你把登記拿掉然後你有很多的讓需求讓民眾可以去表達你就解決了所有大家所說的問題這樣子就可以解決18條大家在爭論的問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8748.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8756.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
好啦 謝謝張錄影大家都有意見然後內政部這邊也會再提出文字修正不然這個我們也先保留我們去往下一個地方走那接下來下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8761.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8762.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
19條 民眾黨蔓延 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8782.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8800.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
謝謝主席第19條這邊我們看到的就是說我們賴政府含就是13萬戶的社宅但卡關最大的問題就是沒有地沒辦法蓋剛才一直在講的就是地區不一樣所以呢去 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8803.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8817.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那個去斷的徵收還有四地重劃本來就是政府最重要的土地來源卻長期只拿去就是飆售或者是六都 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8820.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8835.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
六都都是整開了賺了就是1976億但卻沒有地蓋設宅所以行政院呢在13年也是說專案讓讓售就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8836.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8842.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
中央花800億跟地方買地但是行政院又說嫌財政負擔太重證明這一條就是根本走不通也不合理所以呢我們要回到制度面來解決把社宅用地 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8855.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8883.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
列為整體開發必要公用措施社福用地由內政部定標準 依人口的需求彈性流射不是一刀切 而是把土地留住這樣就是說我們的社宅為必要的公共設施這個就是我們的提案說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8886.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8899.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
內政部這邊來回應其實非常感謝委員大家的提案其實大家都希望為社宅爭取土地我們現在用的是用方案來進行是因為我們會考慮地方真實的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8900.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8919.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
因為你入了法以後他就會變成是必要的手段那我舉例我們前一陣子才剛處理的那個也是昭緯所在的那個台東他有一個新開發區在太馬里那他依照規定他我們幫他算出來他要需要留快3公頃的社宅土地大概可以1500戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8921.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8937.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那我們其實那時候連委員連都會委員都很尷尬因為我們都知道在泰馬里人口還在衰退結果他依照規定他新開發區就要去留這個其實可能對台東縣政府的壓力真的太沉重了因為做了他要去做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8938.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8956.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那所以我們後來才會就是我們其實在擬定的過程當中有考慮這件事情那所以才會建議就是說它是一個德啦 而且是一個橫左的概念這樣我們可以因應地方的真實需求那我們現在為什麼去取這個就是大概針對北北 陶中 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8957.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8975.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這些最稀缺的位置那我們來跟地方政府來談那其實北北 桃中目前大致上也都願意做配合啦他們其實大家都願意那因為台南 高雄其實之前已經出過很多這種土地了那其實他們量也充了很快但是他們也願意都配合願意都配合那我們所以才會建議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8976.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9004.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
非常感激委員但是我建議是在後面我們去補充做一個條文去橫著當地的需求再去要求就好了是做這件事情不要去再現在19條那昭緯剛剛也有一個意見是說要不要統一放在後面的一個條文去寫橫著地方的狀況來做處理那這樣就可以避免在差異比較大的地方他不一定要他去留這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9006.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9021.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 我們一直都說我們一直就說就是修法就是要給人民有方便也給我們的弱勢族群有更好的租屋但是你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9022.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9043.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
都說北北 陶宗人的需求比較多但是呢你現在都拿少數的來去說這樣子的一個問題所以沒有留地蓋住宅是我們現在是你們要推出的法案你們又一直拿少數的人來去講這個我們不是解決問題啦所以還有說我們希望的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9050.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9054.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
不是彈性 也不是浪費機會 我們是說的不是一刀切 剛才我們也講清楚但現在就是10公斤以上的強制規定才叫做一刀切修法就是要授權內政部定辦法嘛就看人口的需求來去調比例公平又彈性反而不是更就是硬地於之 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9078.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9100.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就是因那個地方來自治一個方便嘛所以我們希望就是當然是我們修法以需求來去修法不是說你一直在講的就是少數的人口啊少數的地啊 留更多沒有人住我們真的是要真的有多少人跟我們反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9100.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9104.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
有需求我們講的你們也覺得說各個地方的需求還有蓋的也不是說我們需求就馬上就蓋好啊但是有很多人的需求你還沒蓋啊這個不需求有可能你蓋好這個就是也沒有百分之百全部每一個地方你都蓋好沒有吧對不對所以我們就是希望收權以你們怎麼去定我們沒有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9126.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9129.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
一定全國嘛 這個就是我們的說明 謝謝有沒有其他問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9139.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9159.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我覺得這樣子啦因為我剛有講嘛就住宅法這一次因為提案條文非常多然後大家用不同的條文去解決同一件事情所以跟召委報告一下我們19 20還有我自己提的21條之一我是用陣列的方式處理其實都是處理同一件事嘛也就是說做都市計畫的時候那個底廢地要不要明列就是用一定的比例要留給社宅嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9160.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9184.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
然後那中間這個東西的機制要怎麼樣來做優化是不是這三條其實可以一起處理啦一起處理那我的想法是這樣啦就是說因為大家寫的差別其實就是強度差別嘛有些寫非常清楚就是說你要把你要留甚至留百分之多少一定要留給社宅嘛那有一些是有一些是比較範圍比較大那我們先聽一聽這個行政機關的這樣子的一個意見然後我們看看有沒有辦法找到一個平衡點因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9186.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9205.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
呃實務就我了解啦實務上來講你們在要求都市計畫的時候本來就會要求要做一些那個社宅嘛對不對所以說其實這個也並沒有背離現在中央政府推動的政策方向那只是怎麼樣讓他明確化然後那個甜蜜點在哪裡平衡點在哪裡好那我們大家討論一下以上所以我就覺得19 20 21之一可以一起啦大家對於這些條件有意見的時候可以一起來做處理好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9206.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9225.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那徐政委呢本期是提出第20條的修正案那剛剛那個我們牛委員有特別提到其實跟19、20、20之一是也是相關的那當然本期提出的修正是希望將區段徵收取得之可這個建築用地跟市地重劃取得之底廢地明確的納入可以採 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9225.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9251.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
核建分屋興辦社宅的方式那當然核建分屋的優點是政府不必一次投入全部的興建資金而且透過民間合作加速的供給也分回房屋作為社宅讓土地公用的利益最大化而且也可以避免整體開發的成果被市場化吞沒所以本席是主張就是說應該是要用這樣的一個方式來去落實土地正義的具體行動謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9254.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9282.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們還有沒有其他委員的意見不然我們就請內政部來就剛剛兩位委員提到的意見來回應好 其實就內政部來講其實是會實務上來講就是保留的確要因應各縣市政府的這個未來要擬定或者是要變更都市計畫的時候保留一些就是我們會要求他但是也會有一個因地制宜的一個考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9283.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9297.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以我會比較贊成是在也是在跟紐委員大概有講是在21條之一去來處理這一個事情但是可以把它清楚的定義出來是說那要優先可以優先用哪些方式來 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9298.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9325.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
做解決所以也是儲備土地的時候可以優先把屈安徵收勢力重劃的這一個去辦但是真實的方法就不要再太明略因為真實的方法的時候有時候反而讓縣市政府在處理的時候就綁手綁腳就是所以這件事情會變成說讓他有一個原則性的定義就好不要有清楚的數字比例這樣的話反而可以讓地方政府比較有做事上比較有彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9326.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9342.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以署長的意思就是說同意用這樣的一個方式但是不要明定的太清楚的比例是這樣的意思嗎那這樣縣市政府會比較好對 那條文的部分的話署長是認為應該用什麼樣的方式我是會比較贊成在21條之一看看大家來討論同一個寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9345.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9348.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
同一個寫法那是不是寫法我們來斟酌一下來修一下看這樣會比較好那同意是不是請署長這邊可以有一個寫法來去我們再來討論我們現在的確都是看案子來處理就是說有些的確比較偏鄉的我們就不太講說請這樣馬上去留他那這樣反而會造成執行上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9368.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9382.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
呃有現在就是剛剛那個太慢了就是有啊但是面積又很大結果一塊就應該就沒辦法沒錯反而造成就是縣政委也抓留那一塊地還不知道能做什麼因為被卡住了他也不能動 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9385.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9396.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 那個內政部補充說明之後這個19 20我們就19條跟20條就是先維持現行條文那牛委員的建議是在2121-1啦 21-1來一併來修啦好 有沒有各位意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9405.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9420.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
21-1我剛剛講嘛21-1我是這樣寫的啦就是說應該要先會商相關的這個東西也就是說應該要做這件事啦也就是說做每個都市計畫的時候你都要去評估有沒有空間來做社會住宅嘛然後當然也配合這個各都市計畫的差異嘛你像這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9422.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9437.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
人口密集的都市計畫區他一定會有附近有捷運等等他一定會有社會住宅需求你當然就應該要預留嘛所以那我們後面這一道這個寫的比較詳細的是如何去儲備設宅的土地是用如果你用區段增收或者是市地存活辦理都市計畫的開發對不對如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9440.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9461.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
就是說前面你如果有預留你當然就預留如果前面沒有預留或怎麼樣但是你達到了財務的平衡的時候你就應該要多蓋一些社會住宅這樣子的條文的設計我想聽一聽內政部的意見我再次強調說除以依前項規定辦理者外與開發財務損益平衡時僅僅保留一定比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9462.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9479.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
其餘可供建築或折價抵付共同負擔之住宅區的土地也就是說如果這個都市計畫不管它是市計重劃或者是區案徵收你已經達成財務平衡的時候你剩下的抵費地或者是配餘地你就要保留一部分給社宅或者是可負擔住宅等等的方式來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9480.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9503.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
用這樣的前提條件能不能解決剛剛署長講嘛署長比如說你剛剛講台東泰馬里就是顯然就是那個那個就是不見得有需求嘛但我剛剛也問了嘛你說不見得有需求他會不會損益平衡他不會損益平衡的嘛因為他開發的量能沒有這麼大需求沒有這麼大那不會損益平衡的時候就不用留土地給社宅嘛但你到了損益平衡的時候你就留這樣的機制是否可行大家是可以商量一下好不好國土組說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9510.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9535.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我剛剛會謝謝委員的提供這個草案那我剛剛為什麼說我們來修正也就是說我也建議有一些細節因為開發損益平衡這件事情是在他去送那個報告的時候才會出來尤其是重劃尤其是重劃因為前面都是粗估前面都是粗估那對我們來講我們會是先在都計劃的階段先把它做一個試算 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9537.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9565.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那對縣市政委也是一個初步評估那所以我才會建議就是說開發損益平衡這件事不一定要寫因為我們其實在現行的都市計畫在評估的時候就兩個就會我們一定在都市計畫的時候就會先讓它平衡只是說這個平衡在後面的屈斷針頭15的時候那個數字會變動所以我才說這部分是不是容我們再把它做一些修正大致上文字架構是這樣沒有說但我們再來做一些細節的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9569.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9592.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
剛有講說19、20不要修那放在20條之一啦21條之一但是那個牛委員的提案的部分我建議可以再做一個概括性的描述我們現在碰到的問題是這樣子這個市地重劃如果說給我們地方政府有太大的空間的話他會每一塊的市地重劃都劃得很小所以根本沒有開發設展的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9593.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9613.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那如果是大面積的話呢他又要考慮到說3%或5%的話他的財務損益平衡又不夠而且我們現在在都市計畫的時候通常都會有這個容積獎勵譬如說如果你是以這個要蓋捷運的話會有TOD那這些有很多條件呢都會因地 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9614.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9635.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因時或是因都市計畫而改變所以是不是剛剛那個署長說的部分把它變成是一個比較概括性的政策上的宣示的話那我們會跟地方政府來處理怎麼樣把有一些用地放出來蓋那個公共 蓋那個社會住宅可能會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9636.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9651.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
因為你把這個財務損益平衡放進去裡面的話大概沒有縣市政府可以達到這一點通常蓋社宅都是虧損只是說他要用未來的其他的我跟部長報告一下他這個損益平衡是整個都市計畫的損益平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9651.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9679.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
就是說我要先區單徵收或什麼我要投入成本嘛然後我底費賣掉之後這個的大計劃的損益平衡但是我剛有講到時間啦如果你整個都市計畫或整個市地重劃是20年損益平衡那你覺得他也會delay嘛我理解不要啊對啊好沒關係一樣嘛因為看起來文字上要做一下有一些意見嘛那我們就一樣hold一下消化一下嘛那這一題這一條2121之一我們也是先保留啦齁那接下來接下來繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9684.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9685.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
19之一還有19之一第19之一民政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9697.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9712.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
好 謝謝主席我們在包租比例弱勢的機制這邊我們是弱勢租屋最常備就是巨租包租就是一個解方但現在就是包租占 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9713.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9719.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
只佔32%明顯的失衡不是房東不想幫是制度沒有優惑所以呢就是幽陰所以包租風險高還有責任重遇到弱勢房客就這生活照顧比較有一些糾紛的問題所以房東最怕沒人接手所以淡補租缺乏代管 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9739.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9757.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
的比例差不多所以業者當然選擇輕鬆一點的修法的重點很簡單就是說包租要有明確比例的目標優先照顧我們的弱勢並由內政部會同衛福部建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9758.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9764.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
後端知識與轉介的機制把照顧與協調的責任從房東的身上拿走降低就是餘力否則就是包租永遠做不到也做不大弱勢也永遠就是被拒租這是我們的提案說明是要說我們要把就是包租這個部分要有一些誘因讓他們房東 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9787.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9800.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
願意讓包租不是貸款 以上謝謝那內政部這邊 保生署這邊來回應一下好 我這邊說明一下其實我們也都很希望包租能夠拉高啦那事實上這就是房東意願的養成 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9806.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9828.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
現在其實我們這幾年下來租金補貼下來慢慢在養成房東願意慢慢轉成公益出准甚至慢慢願意提高這樣的一個心態但是以包租代管來講的確現在的成熟已經接近40%但是你說一下要把它50%我們當然是反而嚇跑了房東反而嚇跑了房東現在房東老實說都在養成階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9829.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9846.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以我們建議這個是慢慢一步一步來要慢慢提高他們但是你現在限制他要50看很多房東直接就嚇跑了所以這樣對我們現在業者好不容易在辛苦培養的可能也會有壓力我們現在都是慢慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9847.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9872.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
他一下子不願意包租我們就鼓勵他從代管代管了兩三年問他願不願意調那有些就會願意調出來那我們在這樣的制度慢慢就成熟所以我會建議這個部分是不是這一次修法先不列那等我們時機慢慢能夠越來越穩健比較接近的時候再來那我們每年都可以提出這樣的一個相關的一個進度的報告給各位委員來做了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9877.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9879.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
謝謝國土署這邊的署長回應我們這不是輔導不輔導或者是說養育的問題是感覺是制度是制度把包租的跟代管是給一樣的好處一樣的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9900.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9917.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
現在看起來是是我們等一下再去談的就是我們的稅務啦都一樣1.5所以呢市場當然是風險比較低我們就當然是代管比較好所以你們說就是彈性希望就是但是因為現在包租只佔32% |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9919.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9924.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
代表制度根本就是推不動嘛所以我們若是被拒絕也是常態啊所以包租的解方就是沒有目標就永遠就是也做不大嘛所以呢我們可以寫的目標分年達成不一定一次到位但方向一定要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9942.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9946.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
不要說我們一直每次我們質詢也都是這麼說嘛所以現在我們是說沒有說要一次到位但是我們一定要有一個機制讓我們弱勢就是優先還有建立一些協助的機制你們來訂嘛我們沒有邀請說一次到位但是你們一定要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9964.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9991.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
房東他們願意包租這樣子的話 讓真正的照顧到弱勢啦我們的目標是這樣 以上 謝謝其他委員有意見還是 蘇議員有意見我再做說明啦 其實第一個要跟各位說明啦其實我們對包租跟代管我們不管是提供相關的開發費包管費 煤合費通通都比代管 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9991.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10014.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
還要高現在真的單純是意願的問題啦單純是意願的問題那第二個我們連修繕補助也是比較高所以才會變成說我們是希望是說這過程的確慢慢要去讓房東卸下 主年卸下我們大概都是他可能代管個兩年接著我們的業者就會問他願不願意轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10016.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10040.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
因為他就是建立一個建立對政府的信任一個跟業者建立信任關係那他才會慢慢慢慢這樣把這個戶數調出來那其實擔心說一下把限制一定要這樣的時候一下要找到那麼多的的這個包租真的很難這樣反而你降低了貸款那其實變成說總戶數會一起降下來其實這樣可能兩邊不是很好的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10041.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10067.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那至於就是說跟弱勢預儲的這個儲域的一個協助是不是當然現行已經有了現行本來就已經有了我們現在跟衛福部從從一開始的這個林口設宅的時候都已經有都已經有做這樣的協助那甚至後來把長照2.0 3.0的我們都列入跟業者的一個必要的一個協助項目所以做這樣的報告那今天衛福部是不是也有同仁過來來衛福部我們從說明下 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10075.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10092.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
謝謝跟委員報告的確我們現在內政部都已經按照我們住宅法的第33條在我們的社宅裡面都提供保留的社會福利設施那各縣市也都配合來推動目前都還可行以上報告感謝內政部跟衛福部的說明那拜委員這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10101.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10121.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們是保留啦 我覺得是說差很大啦 妳說書記差在哪裡妳說代管差在哪裡 報住在哪裡 差在哪裡嘛所以因為很多人跟我們反映就是住不到房子 就是剩於說我們新住民他們去住還有帶著公公婆婆 他們就代管了就說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10124.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10129.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
不給你所以我們遇到很多啦所以我覺得就是包租的話就變成是他們是可以就是包租的管理的人他可以決定不是房東還有房東他們真的也是要去看人來租啊因為代管他也要看到他也要去做啊所以這個部分我們遇到很多啦所以才說這個是真的是有差異啦不是沒有差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10152.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10161.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好 謝謝麥先生委員再次說明那這條確實都還是有各自的意見所以我們是不是也就保留繼續往下一條繼續前進好 下一條22條22條22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10175.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10184.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好 喬惠文沒提民眾黨有民眾黨有沒有民眾黨沒有如果沒有的話我們就繼續下一個23條23條好就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10204.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10209.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
請問財政委員23條23條這邊我們民眾黨這邊要說明包租現在吸引力不夠因為跟上面一樣剛才就是說了房東覺得就是租的租期長還有麻煩多多跑去做代管導致包租只佔32%我們堅持把包租的免稅額提高到每月3萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10232.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10236.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
代管的是1.5萬這樣的房東會覺得會划算會合啦願意把房子拿出來租給弱勢我們內政部這邊有說1.5萬稅就夠了但是57%的包租房子的租金超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10253.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10256.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
免稅額 房東要多繳稅當然不愛包租所以修法紮高免稅額也能讓更多的房東加入穩定就是肉市的租屋這個是我們希望就是我們的內政部這邊就是認同我們的版本以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10285.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10287.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那個財政部說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10290.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10315.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
承振部報告因為當初是認為說不管公益出租人或者是包租代管其實它的公益性都很高所以是給予相同的額度那這邊如果包租的額度比較高的話那不曉得會不會有一個示範效果認為包租可以租租金可以高一點因為房東可以免稅額度高一點就不曉得會不會有這種因為它的差異性那這個我們要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10315.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10331.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那還有剛剛我們是說那房客他的免稅額度也只有一個月1.5萬那房東他的免稅額度就高於房客這個也有這個這個這個公平性的顧慮啦那這個部分是不是建議說因為我們剛剛在 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10332.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10357.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
19条公益出租人的那个免税额度已经有说附带决议有主管机关就是我们定期滚动来检讨那是不是这一条也可以并那个19条一样都是免税额度那是不是整体再来评估这样子因为这整个都是整个设宅的政策的一环那是不是说整体再来评估是不是要有差别的免税额度还是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10358.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10365.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
還是說免稅額度要不要隨著時間再來定期滾動檢討的問題是謝謝財政部的回應 談判委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10374.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10386.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們是免稅不是給房東的福利是給我們就是要用包租的能量就是讓弱勢租得到房我們希望的是這樣所以我們希望是說這邊的稅金跟剛才講的那個是應該是不一樣啦不一樣 所以我們是希望說把 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10398.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10411.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
可限制說你可以可以就是定制說包租且轉租弱勢可以把這個文字也可以放進來才適用所以要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10413.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10429.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
真的那個誘因啦 如果是稅比較這樣子高的話真的那個報租才會真正的提高為什麼我實際堅持這樣子的一個很多我們租房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10430.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10455.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
房東就是不願意讓我們去登記戶頭因為他們會稅比較高所以我們是為什麼要用這樣子的他們就會願意因為有很多新住民他們離婚了他們沒有戶籍他們要去租房子的部分所以房東都說如果你要登記戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10457.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10480.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我就不給你住所以變成他要稅要提高所以我們如果用這樣子的包租要給他們免這樣的稅給他就是說這樣他們就會願意讓別人在一起管別人這樣子的話才能達到我們的精神希望就是包租提高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10481.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10502.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
只要直接講的我之前就有租過 我知道了因為我為止就是單親所以我就 我都租過我也很多新住民有這樣子租過所以我真的是我親身體驗的所以我才會提出說這個是有必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10503.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10525.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這樣子來去限制還有要求這個房東他們真的是願意每次提出來只要登記戶籍房東就會有這樣的問題所以我們是包租如果是來做包租比較高的話這樣子的話房東很願意給別人再去租還可以登戶籍這樣子這個就是我們的說明還需求 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10530.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10533.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝麥正偉的補充說明那這邊我想補充說明這個財政部再說明一下這個就是給房東的租稅優惠啦那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10545.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10566.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
这是给房租租金那我们是说因为这个整个整个包租贷款这整个租税是不是整体考量因为现在要把这个做差异化的免税额度是不是在住宅政策上是否妥适那会不会让人家觉得说包租的房东租金就可以设的高一点这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10567.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10577.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對 那所以我們是建議說是不是併食9條就是全部都是針對於房東的免稅額度的部分併食9條就是在有主管機關定期來檢討 滾動檢討這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10583.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10594.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
謝謝陳正波這邊的再說明我想這個是不是就照併到我們19條一起來討論因為都是相類似的東西1919-119-1的部分我想說直幾條不一樣這都類似的東西是不是我們就併在一起再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10603.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10618.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 所以我們先保留因為我們真的是要有很大的誘引才能真正的提高啦不然也沒辦法提高啊沒有辦法提高就沒有辦法提高好 那我們這條保留啦畢竟到15條來一起討論15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10626.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10652.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
就是用附帶決議處理19也是啊也是都是啊因為剛才劉許廷講那個三個房子太快的啊因為15是講稅嘛19是講包租包租的我們就併到相我們就併到相關的一起來討論的好不好那這邊補充宣告我們第22條因為我們不擔負於採納維持現行條文那好接下來下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10654.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10659.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
24條24條不在我們不予審議我們繼續維持維持現行條文我們繼續25條25條我們這邊請民眾黨說明提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10678.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10686.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好谢谢主席我们在25条这边租债租金过去为明确的法治化确实引发争议因此才有修法的讨论不过目前中央已公告涉载分级租金的原则也明确纳入就是依家户所得分级的计算 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10708.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10725.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
但是這個就是可負擔的概念啦但是實際上已回到租宅法以照顧弱勢為核心的立法精神因此我們本條不再堅持入法處理後續可通過行政規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10726.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10747.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
持續檢討於今今即可避免重複立法會引發不必要的爭議這個就是我們民眾黨的說明 謝謝謝謝民眾黨這邊的提案說明所以這條二十五條我們就是維持現行條文那也依照他們的建議來內政部這邊主管機關來著辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10753.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10755.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
25條就不予修正ok那接下來我們第33條 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10768.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10791.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
不在不在 沒提好第三條不在我們現在維持現行條文34條34條也沒提那34條不在我們也維持現行的條文35條不在我們維持現行條文39條39條不在我們現在維持現行條文不修正第40條40條 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10801.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10818.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們第40條就是關於就是居住水準清查的確實重要但目前問題不在於就是有沒有修法而是在於就是基礎資料都還 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10820.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10827.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
沒有完整所以現在各縣市清查結果人未完全出爐所以中央也無法掌握全國的總量類型分布自租或租賃比率的關鍵數據在這個情況下直接入法要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10841.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10859.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
繼續改善的措施反而容易變成就是空轉因此我們本黨主張應先要求內政部完成資料重整與分析提出具體改善對策與政策工具後再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10861.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10866.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
是否以及如何修法在數據未明確之前先談修法好像容易就是形成就是修法的目標所以現在這個階段我們民眾黨就選擇就是不以貿然推動謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10882.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10905.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
好謝謝麥正委員的說明所以這個部分我們也就維持我們現行的條文那不予修正那接下來我們接下來是第43條43條就是好43條提案委員不知道我們維持現行的條文不予修正接下來第47條 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10908.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10909.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
第三事項來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10924.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10950.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
跟委員報告一下因為那個租金統計的部分我們現在其實就每季會發布兩期每年會發布兩次那等於是每半年發布一次不過我們現在的部分的話是發布總價的一個中位數資料裡面還有加跟那個屋齡來做一個比對那現在委員修正的都是單價的部分那因為我們只有考量到幾個部分因為單價的部分我們現在租屋市場大家的考量是我的總價是多少是負擔多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10951.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10967.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以一般我們像租屋的行情或是現在在外面的一個平台其實都不會去揭露去分析那個單價的資料那第二個部分的話因為單價的部分因為每一個房每一個物件它的一個有沒有裝潢有沒有設備其實就會影響到它的價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10968.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10990.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那如果一旦統計到單價可能就會有追價的一個影響價格的部分所以對於單價這幾個提案的話單價的資料的公佈的部分我們是會比較覺得 比較不宜因為可能會對於租屋市場會有一些影響那我們現在可能還是建議我們回來精進我們現在一個總價的一個計算方式的部分讓民眾更好參考好 謝謝市長的說明那白政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10995.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11012.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好謝謝主席我們民眾黨這邊有在有提這個所以租宅法是剛才你們有說在47條早就要求了但是政府應定期收集但是分析並沒有就是公佈租賃與買賣市場的共定 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11016.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11021.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
供給需求所以教育的價格但立法多年實際有沒有明顯就不足沒有落實所以直到113年8月我們內政部才建立一個就是租金統計資訊網的專區但目前公布的內容對政府政策判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11040.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11061.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
也對租屋市場雙方幾乎就是沒有實質參考的價值特別是對政府已經投入大量預算的補助與包租代管的物件更是資訊不足 政府一年花了就是百億元來在租金補貼包租代管還有就是連補 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11066.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11086.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
補貼的物件的型態 屋齡單憑租金都不清楚這不只是無法檢驗的政策結果也無法協助租客避開黑市與不合理的租金因此本條主張不是增加負擔而是要求補貼相關物件 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11091.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11095.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
就是應優先完整 揭露關鍵租屋的信息讓市長透明 政策可檢驗剛才你有說 因為我們一年兩次但是我們現在不是增加你們的工作 是法律交代的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11113.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11133.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
一直沒有做到還有說是分就是數位只能寫在報告豬就是沒有能看到的筆價還有壁壘嘛這信息所以是黑市還是存在這些是花政府的錢來去做這樣子的補貼市場但是政府就是最要有責任先透明還有不然的話補貼效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11141.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11143.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
都沒辦法去檢驗因為我們沒有看到所以政府補貼的就是說你們一定要會說你們補助這些錢你一定要去看說他們怎麼花合帳啊撥款啊說他們有沒有是有效果給你們你們才要給吧不能只是說我們有做兩次但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11161.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11173.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
沒辦法做到至少要把就是形態物理還有單品的租金或中威數寫進來這樣子的話的細節這樣子用我們的行政方法才能去補齊讓更多人知道說我們政府花錢要做這個但是沒有透明讓大家也找不到你們有沒有去真正的去管理所以我們是看到的問題是在這裡以上謝謝謝謝麥議貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11193.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11209.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那47條基本上因為現在內政部也開始做了他當然比較粗略一點但總是好的開始那我覺得我大概看一下各委員提案版本其實也跟內政部現在做的並沒有差很多那就乾脆把它寫進去就單價的部分因為單價的部分現在我們都是用總價 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11211.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11234.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
因為大家的單價你講的單價意思是每坪平均數的意思是吧對每坪單價那文字上看看要怎麼來做修我覺得可以商量但我覺得當然啦這個就是透明化的程度到哪裡但我覺得也是要一步一步往前走包含怎麼樣去規範比如說包租代管等等先來做處理這些公益出租的人先來做一些揭露然後再來一步一步的去增進租屋市場透明我是覺得這次修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11234.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11254.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
租屋市場透明是非常非常重要的一個關鍵也是你後面租賃專法那邊有公信歷史關鍵所以我覺得這個條文是一定要做調整的那內容上怎麼來做修正大家可以再保留一點商量的空間以上跟委員說明一下委員剛才提到那個租金補貼的資料能不能做更好的運用我們現在每半年公佈一次就是用租金補貼的資料60幾萬筆的資料來做分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11257.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11281.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這個跟委員報告一下而且現在學校的部分很多學校也反映大學生反映跟我們說那個東西對於他很有幫助這個部分先跟委員報告剛才劉委員有提到的話我們就把我們現行的做法就是有關於用租金補貼的資料做中位數相關的分析以達到租金的資訊的透明的部分我們把它改成文字的部分把它放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11282.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11304.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那可能那個包租代管的那一個資料跟租補的資料data其實不同的課程所以我們現在也有研究過我們現在是覺得你要研究就一起研究啦因為其實我們那時候租賃專法就有提嘛我們現在把我們現在做的部分就是要透明化嘛拿到文字裡面在這個說明之後我們這些提示也保留然後再做一個文字修正OK 我們接下來那五十五十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11313.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11339.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
五十五十二跟二十三跟那個是一包的五十二也保留啦齁一起討論這保留OK然後增訂五張之一這個部分後面就沒了沒來沒來好那不予增訂五十二支五十二條之一這是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11350.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11361.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
52之1沒有嗎 人不在 不予增訂好 53之1不在 那我們也不予增訂57之1 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11367.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11383.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們50要低那這個也一起保留來這跟第10條掛鉤的第10條如果要57就是罰則好不好一起保留一起保留OK好我們休息一下順便整理一下順便整理一下OK先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11389.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11390.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
你們要接著再審嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11404.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11424.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我建議是這樣啦因為我們目標是這個位置要大一點那因為預期一定會有沒有公平的地方所以就要有我這樣點了以後 這些保障都錯了 都要回就競爭都錯了我們做法也是不像他們的意思你們覺得怎麼樣 再把握一下沒有沒有 今天沒有啊還有十個標文對阿 你現在對其他地料了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11433.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11462.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
現在剩下10秒如果要解鎖我們就直接送我們就送解鎖解鎖解鎖解鎖解鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11485.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11487.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
你們再排一次,你們就再下個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11489.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11498.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我們回去整理再個別找委員討論一下下次來比較容易有共識學到協商 學到協商很多不能這麼細的討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11532.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11557.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我沒有換白衣服好嗎 平常都穿著穿著戴好就好那你好 文字要完整啦不要錯過對啦欸 跟你有問題沒關係 找的找的心情多多白衣有辦法嗎 白衣有辦法嗎要先確認大家人事上沒有太大問題白衣有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11559.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11583.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
本來禮拜一跟禮拜三是要一起開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11587.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11612.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦的禮拜四 元旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11617.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11637.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
是不是春夏跟溝通如果可以說得好慢慢協商在這裡出委員會就好啊春十條你們有辦法溝通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11648.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11673.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
有一點偏執啦,偏執啦好啦,我是覺得,在這裡是他們現在藍白合作,跟他們講啊藍白合作,跟他們講,對北西海有利的看什麼人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11677.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11691.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
現在他們有差不多兩三條他們那些不一樣他們那些是題材不一樣的根本不一致根本不一致我告訴你他要做什麼 我想說他先下去他們的問題先下去我們再說這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11708.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11712.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我覺得這樣很快,不然你又要自己說,又要自己說,很惡劣。因為他們現在,他們有三個女孩,有五個男孩, |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11736.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11763.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
因為他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。因為他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。因為他們的事不一樣,他們去共同判斷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11767.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11772.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這麼多錢,他們不敢來聽,拜託別這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11786.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11813.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那個不斷說是說他們沒錢的,他們不懂法的,才能夠擺明正常的,才可以服役的,公共的,就不用一個月啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11820.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11846.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我說他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵他們是國務委的公爵 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11848.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11871.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們黃柵就是大家有問題可以跟他溝通的對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11872.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11883.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我那邊去討論了,我不是去洗手間啊,對啦,這樣,你如果說不去討論,就不用等一個月啦,不要煩惱啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11900.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11912.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11924.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11934.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
谢谢大家谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11964.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11992.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
對啊,他很想回去啊你叫啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11992.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12002.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
趕快去趟廁所啦,去到客廳吃菜啦,不然咱的鼻子會忘記啦,你趕快去,我那邊不想去啦,拜託啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12029.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12038.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12055.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12078.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12085.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12085.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我... |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12120.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12139.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
對 對 對 還好 是海賊 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12161.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12180.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12187.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12203.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12228.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12243.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
好我們現在已經究竟這個各位我們現在已經接近中午時間我們先休息那午餐過後我們下午兩點半繼續開會那請那個國務組這邊資料先整理一下繼續整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12250.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12266.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
張維林不要下下禮拜協商就直接送了不用一個月兩棟起嗎對啊 我們不會為難啦因為他沒有辦法去整理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12305.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12308.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
沒有啦 參雙節也有這年最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12316.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12344.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他沒有公司怎麼辦他在這裡討論會比協商還好嗎那他們就說讓他們一個時間討論但是現在就是說他回去下一個回去落一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12346.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12347.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
對啦,都下來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12379.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12398.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
你們都在這裡 都不可能說人家的完美完結不要說了 說到結束了都不能參詳 不能協調一下有這麼多人都有意見就不行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12405.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12425.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
大家都可以說一聲 氣氛要改善可以討論的東西 大家都要拼了知道到現在 我們真的都沒有對被審好 對做主的人好 控訴的人也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12430.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12431.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
也就輸輪輸金 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12484.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12484.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們禮拜一 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12510.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12514.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
禮拜一 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12529.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12535.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12568.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12574.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12612.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12616.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12653.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12655.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12669.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12670.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
跟這邊說話 我還沒討論被寫了沒多討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12679.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12681.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
誒 五十二歲了 說好啊 八歲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12698.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12720.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
謝謝,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12742.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12746.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12757.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12778.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我說後禮拜的都給他們啦,這樣就好了還要再加班啦,聖誕節最好的禮物啦明天再加班授錢給他了啦,下個禮拜一定換了啦沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12786.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12791.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
他宣告啦因為下禮拜公關啦確定了啦下個禮拜都換了啦下個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12816.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12816.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12839.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12852.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
主席重新宣告討論事項所列議案軍令12月29日星期一繼續審查那本次的會議到此結束我們現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12875.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12883.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我看他 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12904.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12924.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
你們禮拜一拜託 市長你們禮拜一拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12933.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12936.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
谢谢观看 |