| IVOD_ID |
17149 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17149 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-24T08:39:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-24T12:09:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:29:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd6f793b294c435070ef019ba90975c37a3fa04411479d882ae173f420e06da8555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會及國家通訊傳播委員會就「社群平台打詐成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【12月22日及24日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:39:05 - 12:09:00 |
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1332.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 交通委員會現在繼續開會首先介紹我們今天列席的人員數位發展部林一進部長資源管理司曾文芳司長世衛政府司楊耿瑜副司長數位產業署黃雅萍副署長資通安全署政委副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1334.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1361.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
國家資通安全研究院鞏化中副院長行政院打擊詐騙指揮中心王崇盛執行秘書內政部警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心張文元主任法務部檢察司張曉雯司長金融監督管理委員會銀行局周振山主任秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1363.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1383.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
國家通訊傳播委員會基礎設施處陳春木處長本日會議進行社群平台打造成效之專題報告首先我們先請列席機關報告請數位發展部林怡靜部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1393.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1393.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
麥克風開一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1396.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1422.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主席各位委員今天應邀列席貴委員會就數位發展部社群平臺打詐成效提出報告請各位不吝指教自一百一四年一月行政院實施新世代打擊詐欺策略二點零版後數位發展部成為防詐面向的主責機關我們從法律科技與商業三管齊下同步推動社群平臺防詐工具以下說明具體做法與成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1423.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1448.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
首先在法律面我們已經完成炸防條例立法實施網路廣告實名制要求網路廣告平台業者20小時內下架設炸廣告並正式納管4家業者7個平台包含Google YouTube Line FacebookInstagram TikTok Thresh再來在科技面速發部已經建置了網路詐騙通報查詢網目前累計下架超過24萬則網路詐騙廣告而為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1453.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1476.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
遏止詐騙網站 我們也建立DNS RPZ機制截至114年11月已經成功攔阻了超過4萬5千則詐騙網站此外 我們持續推動政府專屬短碼簡訊截至114年11月累計已發送超過9千萬則簡訊透過科技的手段逐步建立完善的阻詐機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1478.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1490.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在商业面我们透过制度设计将业者的房价作为与品牌信任连结许多业者已经加入我们的好人队行列例如Meta主动运用AI科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1492.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1518.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
目前已經主動移除了超過780萬則針對臺灣的詐騙廣告以及訊息此外LINE與本部合作推出政府LINE官方帳號認證機制民眾只要認明藍色盾牌標誌以及完整標示的公務人員職稱與姓名就能快速辨識公務帳號的GENUI同時也新增再次登錄的功能當帳號遭到詐騙集團盜用時 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1521.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1543.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
可协助用户很快的取回账户的控制权在游戏点数方面我们的防诈措施包含OTP验证 异常监控 限额与警语 客服支援从112年至114年游戏点数诈骗案件下降已经有70%拦阻的金额超过2.9亿元 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1545.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1562.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
再來在第三方支付方面我們採跨部會聯防銀行與超商雙向控管為登錄不得營運並建置虛擬賬號查詢平台查核覆蓋率百分之百裁罰與廢止登錄案件以排除高風險的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1565.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1582.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
社群平台是民眾接觸詐騙的主要管道之一速發部將持續從法律科技與商業三管齊下要求平台落實責任持續強化跨部會合作與公司協力降低民眾受害的機率守護國人的財產安全以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1592.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1612.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好我們再請行政院打擊詐騙指揮中心王崇盛執行秘書來報告主席及各位委員各位先進大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1613.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1642.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心就社群平台打詐成效提出專案報告 請各位不失指教有鑒於民眾誤信網路投資廣告燒炸的情形嚴重為了從源頭遏止政府於112年6月有修正了《證券投資信託及顧問法》第70條之一要求網路投資廣告要採實名制並規範平台業者應要落實事前審查及事後下架的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1643.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1668.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
政府進一步於113年7月三讀通過炸氣犯罪危害防治條例納管了網路廣告平台並將網路廣告的防炸作為列入新世代打擊炸氣策略行動綱領的核心並於綱領2.0版中新增了防炸面向強化數位經濟產業治理期望能透過法規修訂與政策引導雙管齊下從原初阻斷炸氣資訊的流竄 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1670.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1699.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那個相關數據已走勢詐欺犯罪防治條例自一一三年八月十四至今詐欺案件的發生數與財損數已有逐步下降的趨勢金桶計與網路廣告相關連最高的假投資詐騙案件從去年八月與到今年十月比較發生件數減少了百分之六十七財損數下降到百分之七十一顯見針對詐騙廣告進行源頭壓制已有初步成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1701.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1726.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在有關於平台業者的推動措施以及執行成效部分那數位發展部就法律面 科技面及商業面三館旗下持續推動反詐作為因為相關內容剛剛林部長已經有報告請各位長官參閱執行成效部分網路詐騙通報查詢網截至本年的11月30日總計受理通報47萬余者疑似詐騙訊息其中23萬余者確認為詐騙狂 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1731.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1751.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
詐騙訊息然後進行通報下架內政部警政署刑事警察局從去年8月至本年11月已經通報Meta社紮廣告11萬余折Google社紮廣告4千余折及LINE的社紮帳戶9萬余筆平台業者均依法規定配合下架有效減少民眾接觸詐騙風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1753.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1780.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
金融建築管理委員會督導臺灣證券交易所等單位主動於網路上收報 涉詐假投資廣告從12年4月起至今年12月19日後總計收報下架了涉詐廣告共10萬余折有效減少民眾接觸詐騙資訊的機會至於打造經濟作為部分生化平台業者公司協力落實源頭管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1781.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1809.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
本院打炸中心於今年召集平台業者召開三次會議針對廣告防禦機制高風險戰後處置自律防炸策略及普發現金施炸宣導的議題深入研商後續我們將持續的督促業者配合風險調整政策精進辨識詐欺手法局演變樣態落實數位產業源頭反堵以守護國民財產安全政府與平台高層會面 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1811.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1835.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
今年META與LINE公司的高層也分別來訪本院溝通打詐策略 共享資安情報以及增進防制詐騙機制等本院也鼓勵平台業者高層持續定期參與研商第三 公告詐騙被害人所接觸的網路廣告平台業者本院內政部預定於明年1月起於每月在165打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1836.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1857.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
把165打在儀表板中去公告詐騙被害人所接觸到的平台希望能透過數據統計讓民眾能瞭解哪些平台具有高風險需提高警戒性並促進業者建築更安全的網路平台環境協議打在沒有終點還有無數的挑戰等著我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1857.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1860.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
面對詐團技術上的不斷演變政府會持續地針對各種詐騙手法及涉詐廣告樣態進行滾動檢討並協同平台業者共同精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1868.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1890.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
精進各項防詐措施 積極防治詐騙並將協助民眾及時掌握詐騙的正確資訊辨識可疑詐騙行為共同提升全民罰債一致以自我保護免疫力希望能透過政府與社會的共同努力有效遏止詐欺犯罪營造一個安全安心的社會以上報告請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1898.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1925.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 謝謝 那其餘機關所送書面報告皆列入記錄 刊登公報我們現在開始進行詢答 先宣告以下事項 1 詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘 列席委員4分鐘 2 委員發言登記於10點30分截止 3 各委員如有臨時提案 請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診 4 暫定10點30分休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1942.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1966.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 現在我們先進行巡打先登記第一位的洪孟楷召委執行好 主席謝謝 麻煩請我們速發部林部長好 速發部林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1972.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2000.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
部長好委員早安部長詐騙以及數位平台的一個治理跟讓國人安心我想這都是非常重要的事情是我們先想請教一下上個禮拜五其實在國內發生1219這個無差別的暴力攻擊事件是也造成人心惶惶是其中這一個凶嫌1219這個凶嫌他去購買了相關的不管是煙霧彈不管是這個瓦斯噴槍等等的東西他都是透過網路購物 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2003.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2012.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
現在警方也去做一個通盤的釐清發覺是說這一些網路購物基本上都是依法可以販售但是也衍生了一些問題就是說有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2013.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2042.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
正常的生存遊戲玩家或者說軍用品店它其實賣煙霧彈它並不是要造成恐慌而是真的可能野外求生需要使用那大家會覺得是說如果說在網路平台上面可以任意購買那它捏造一個理由就可以來購買到其實無形當中也怕後續會有模仿效應等等所以有人提倡是說是不是要通盤的來檢討甚至說在網路上販售這一些相關產品也需要有實名制 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2043.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2069.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
部長你認為呢是 關於這個實名制這件事情當然是說如果我們在網路上實施實名制像中國大陸他們的做法那的確是可以有效的嚇阻犯罪但是另外一方面也會有隱私的問題因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家我們對於這種議題我們比較精神歐美國家怎麼做歐美的話據我了解譬如說我在美國購買什麼東西都不用在Amazon上面都不用但歐美的槍支 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2070.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2088.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他就是完全殖民 一定要有license才可以但是槍枝的部分其他的部分就是說這一些像煙霧彈我們以前沒有想過煙霧彈它會造成這種恐怖攻擊恐慌嘛想說是應該生存遊戲玩家等等但目前現在已經看到它就真實發生在上個禮拜五 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2088.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2102.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是 那我們現在速發部打算是第一個就是說對於特殊的這些品項就是有這個安全疑慮的品項我們會跟各個部會譬如說跟內政部跟衛福部我們跟他合作第一個就是說可能有些品項我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2103.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2128.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
真的是会采取实名制的方式然后在领货的时候因为我们现在速发部推出一个数位凭证皮夹那我们可以在网路上认证你的身份然后再譬如说你如果到超商去领货的话那也是可以在超商利用这个数位凭证皮夹的功能去认证这个身份这个事情我们有在讨论所以部长刚刚讲到两点第一就是说本企业不是无条件的所有网路购物都要实名制是没错 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2129.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2149.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
該給國人基本的消費者的權利或者是說你購買的隱私證本期覺得尊重但是就是您剛有提到現在是先政府部門先討論有哪些品項可能它會確實有一些風險以及危險性存在還有就是說它應該是在特殊管道譬如說生存遊戲玩家他一次買個兩個四個煙霧彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2152.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2177.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這沒有問題但如果說他一次買一箱兩箱然後他沒有辦法說明理由他也不是幫團隊買的那可能我們就會懷疑是說你一次買一箱兩箱囤貨你要幹嘛對不對完全同意委員的看法是 所以說我們會檢討什麼樣的一個品項再來就是說針對跟社群平台業者拍賣平台業者也來討論是說那我們怎麼樣來加強這個實名制甚至您剛剛有提到就是速發部最近提到的數位憑證皮夾來做一個連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2180.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2189.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
什麼時候這些會進行因為我知道內政委員會在禮拜一的時候也有開會也有說要討論這個實名制的一個部分那所以什麼時候會確認哪一些品項要 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2190.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2215.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
一個list因為這個品項應該是各個主管機關譬如說那個槍支可能是我了解是內政部內政部然後藥品的話其實現在最大的問題是在藥品這個是衛福部那我們找他們開會那另外我們訴發部這邊主要是所以訴發部我們比較積極主動負責一點因為網路上是一個現在很多人就會匿名買到東西或是說他假冒他的身分買東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2216.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2240.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
事實上跟委員報告就是在禮拜一我們已經找了台灣的幾個主要的網路平台我們已經跟他開會那其實在會議中我們也談到這些事情那幾個國內本土的電商都非常的積極主動他們也主動提到這件事情他們希望說由我們速發部這邊來主責然後他們願意全力配合好 所以速發部可以在多久時間內把這件事情確認一個月內是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2241.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2266.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
一個月內當然是說我們這個只能是一個規劃就是當然要實施的話可能還要牽涉到立法但是一個月內找相關部會先把list列出來然後也找平台因為你講說禮拜一本席肯定你的作為因為禮拜五 1219發生這個事情禮拜一我們速發部就找相關的平台來去先做初步的討論那怎麼樣把它媒合起來讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2269.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2282.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
99%我想要買東西的都可以在網路上順暢無虞但是我們也利用這個機會把有心人士故意你買這個東西來是要製造恐慌的我們把它給阻絕掉至少多 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2283.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2312.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
障碍多一個成本讓他在購買的時候就會想說很不容易購買而增加他的一些困難度是不是 沒錯事實上這個有分成兩個部分第一個就是說有些品項我們是希望說在購買的時候就限制你必須先證明了身分你才能去買那另外就是說有些品項我們是希望說你購買了以後我們留下足夠的那個機證到時候出事的話我們警政機關可以把你這個人找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2312.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2328.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那這樣的話也是可以阻絕一些犯罪好 所以說這些品項的一個清單以及因為你剛剛講說有些品項如果說還需要有身分認證的話那可能說不定還牽涉到修法或者是說可能是經濟部等相關部會的一些夜館所以訴發部主動來找相關部會來開會把它釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2330.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2358.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
一個月內至少有個方向出來讓國人可以知道後續要怎麼走好嗎好 沒問題 謝謝再來另外第二個部分就是在這一次發生這個1.219的隨機殺人事件之後其實網路上有很多模仿的訊息是我完全沒有辦法接受本期完全沒有辦法接受你是用什麼開玩笑 算命 夢到來去散播這樣子的一個謠言這個不應該是在這個時候造成社會的恐慌是 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2359.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2385.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想請教在這一個部分裡面速發部有沒有什麼樣的一個因應未來如果說造成一個重大社會事件的時候來去散佈這樣的謠言我們能夠怎麼做跟譬如說網路平台我不是要做言論的審查跟控管可是當已經出現模仿效應或錯誤威脅的資訊的散播的時候能不能跟社群平台來溝通至少短時間內它的觸及這樣子類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2389.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2413.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
的惡意的訊息要觸及要先降低來做一個查證來 部長非常同意委員的看法處理這類的訊息我們有兩個層面第一個在法律的層面如果說這個訊息本身它就已經觸法了各個主管機關就會通知我們訴發部或者是由我們訴發部就會通知各個平台他們就有責任有法律的責任必須下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2413.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2431.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那另外一個是各個平台都有他們的社群守則像是Meta Facebook他們就有他們的社群守則那社群守則因為這是商業行為那我們會第一個我們會跟他們商討確定他們的社群守則裡面要盡到他們的社會責任把這些下架那他因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2431.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2449.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
如果是透過社群守則的話他們通常會用AI的方式然後也會用自動化的方式先一旦偵測到有疑似這種製造恐慌或者是不當的言論他們就會降低觸及或甚至直接先本席為什麼會提這一點因為本席記得應該是兩三年前是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2449.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2469.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
國外發生校園的槍擊事件當時的兇嫌還用直播的方式所以當直播的方式看到的時候社群媒體平台馬上把那個直播第一封閉第二降低觸及因為他看到的是血腥的畫面直播他不可能讓一樣很多人馬上進來觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2471.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2499.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
對不對所以一樣這一次1.2.1.9這個兇嫌他可能他犯案的時候沒有開直播但是相關的畫面以及後續本席要強調的是後續造成什麼在捷運上有什麼供給的預告在高鐵上有什麼供給預告徒增社會的動盪跟不安以及這完全錯誤的訊息我們都應該要由司法單位來去做研辦並且也應該要跟社群媒體平台溝通就像您剛所講的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2500.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2526.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好來最後我也再一分鐘的時間現在小紅書當然我實在話講每一個社群平台我都要一樣的標準沒有任何我不允許任何人用社群媒體平台來去做詐騙的工具但也一樣我們要對症下藥就不是說只是意識形態但是沒有對症下藥我請教什麼時候小紅書我們現在要求說要把他APP給關掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2527.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2556.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
目前並沒有說要把APP關掉這個不然我們之前討論都是討論不是內政部不是講說小紅書要求他要下架要關掉然後不能讓國人來看是這件事情是由內政部決定然後執行的機關是TWNICTWNIC是一個法人機構那監管機關是出發布那我們就是既然那據我們的了解就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2557.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2574.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
就是內政部發文給TWNIC要求的是封阻一個網域一個Domainnet那並沒有要求TWNIC把那個小紅書的APP下架那詳細的情況可能要問內政部因為我們現在看到說實在要問內政部今天的官員是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2576.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2599.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
內政部是我們詐欺犯罪防治中心的主任我不知道說您了不了解沒關係來部長我還是強調我們過去到現在因為馬上上12月初很多國人就在討論就是說速發部自己做的打詐通報平台90% 80%都來自於同一個媒體同一個集團對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2600.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2621.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那結果你不去動百分之八十九十的這一個打詐騙的一個管道你反而動一個你們在速發的通報平台裡面沒有選項的小紅書讓國人就覺得奇怪你是大炮打小鳥還是你只是選擇性的辦案還是你政治意識形態這是第一個第二個本席要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2621.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2648.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那從12月5號開始內政部說要把這個網域給關掉那到目前為止我們打詐的成效快一個月了我沒有看到有具體的數據啊我們有很明顯的顯著的因為我們政府把小黃書關掉把小黃書讓他不能用打詐的名義讓他不能使用之後我們的詐騙通報的數量有大幅下降嗎你有沒有看打詐儀表版 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2649.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2674.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個禮拜 上個禮拜二是 也是內政部嘛但是速發部有沒有統計你們自己的通報有沒有減少有沒有減少這一個月有沒有突然間大幅的減少在我們網站通報查詢網上面的統計還是以Meta它的那個Facebook還有Thread它最大宗那至於那個是嘛 你自己也承認他們是最大宗嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2676.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2690.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
結果我們去一個遮蔽一個在你的通報平台裡面通報系統裡面完全沒有選項的小紅書不覺得很本末倒置嗎那再來打在儀表板上個禮拜一15號2億6千多萬被詐騙禮拜二 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2699.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2721.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
一億八千多萬被詐騙我講最近的這個禮拜一一億四千多萬內政部來部長我不是要洗你臉你放心我只是要讓你知道這個事情的荒謬內政部那個負責的然後這個小紅書這個決定也是內政部政府不是應該一致嗎來 部長好 部長我只最後一句話讓你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2721.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2743.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
本席還是開宗明義強調你放心 我今天不是讓你在這邊就是蒙受不白之冤但是政府是一體的數位發展部有數位發展部的功能國內也對數位發展部有所期待所以如果說當真正打詐本席為什麼今天會列社群媒體平台打詐成效的時候我希望是所有政府部門一起動起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2744.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2765.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
要求 強力要求社群媒體平台真的不能再有詐騙廣告在上面有 你們就是幫兇就是這麼簡單感謝部長好 謝謝我們洪孟楷召委的執行現在請我們李坤澤召委執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2773.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2777.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝趙委 請一下林部長來 林部長請 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2783.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2810.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員長 部長好完善社群平台的防詐措施保障人民的財產安全是我們共同的基本責任那依照詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第三節就是數位經濟的防詐措施在數位經濟的防詐措施裡面蘇發部是扮演重要的角色那當然要落實這種平台的防詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2812.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2815.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
平坦的落地跟平坦的納管是一個重要的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2816.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2844.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們目前對於平台落地跟平台落管蘇華部所掌握的狀況以及處置的情形來簡單說明一下目前就是像我們已經納管的基本上有四家公司 七個平台這四家公司分別是Meta Google Line以及TikTok它這個平台包含Thread Facebook |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2845.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2856.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
還有META那基本上這個都已經在台灣都已經有設立法律代表了那這是我們目前辦理的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2857.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2886.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那相關的業者如果依照詐欺犯罪危害防治條例相關的業者他們也有相關的責任那這些相關的責任是什麼目前執行的狀況呢主要在法律上的責任他們必須實施廣告實名制然後再來就是我們發現有這個涉及詐欺的廣告或者訊息的時候我們通知他們他們必須在24小時之內下架如果他們沒有確實執行的話我們就會對他們進行處罰部長目前當然法律已經有基本的規範了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2887.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2908.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
平台有防詐的責任包括風險的分析評估廣告的驗證最重要就是下架詐騙的資訊以及提供相關的資料部長說明一下目前各社群平台這種詐騙訊息下架的狀況是如何來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2908.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2923.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
OK 我們現在都是透過電子化自動化的方式通知這些平台那我們在打炸專法剛實施的時候他們下架的速度都還比較慢一點但是目前的狀況是說我們通知Facebook如果是設炸的廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2924.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2946.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
目前都在四個平均在四個小時之內我們通知他有四個小時之內就會下架這是平均數另外就是非廣告是一般的訊息的話是在八個小時左右平均八個小時左右他會把它下架那我們是希望他們持續改善因為這個都是做自動化的處理只是說他們在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2948.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2974.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
非廣告而是那個個人訊息方面他們會做人工的最後查驗那這個部分會稍微比較慢一點所以他需要8個小時這都是基本的規範但實際執行的狀況是不好的如果說目前我們看警政署的統計這種詐騙的訊息還是非常猖獗如果以Meta來講Meta的詐騙廣告其實是非常的嚴重那也顯示Meta的這種廣告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2975.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3000.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
服務管理系統它是有嚴重的缺失那數位部如何去要求Meta呢各位委員報告我們網站通報查詢網自從去年9月14到現在以來我們已經通知Meta下架了超過24萬則廣告還有那個訊息這24萬則的廣告或者訊息我們就交給MetaMeta就回去訓練他們的AI模型告訴他們的AI模型說台灣的詐騙大概是長什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3002.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3026.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
然後利用這種機制那個Meta現在已經下架了針對台灣780萬則的詐騙廣告或訊息所以其實依照我們的統計我們的那個巡查報告以及民眾的感覺我們現在我想現在應該很少看到有仿冒謝金河或者是仿冒黃仁勳的這種那個名人那個仿冒詐騙已經在Facebook上已經大幅下降了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3027.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3048.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
部長我要提醒你目前這種下架的速度是趕不上詐騙的速度罰款過低是否是有收到效果嗎是沒有效果嗎如果我們看警政署的資料來看今年1月到9月下架7萬多則網路平台詐騙的廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3050.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3073.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
但是依據蘇發部的網路通報詐騙平台每個月就有兩萬三千多則的詐騙訊息有一萬多則的高風險的訊息那問題的根源並不是平台業者沒有進到這些相關防詐條例的規定沒有做到網路廣告平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3074.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3097.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這種防詐的義務那相關的罰款是不是過低來說明一下OK 跟委員報告目前我們開罰的部分我們是對於Meta已經開罰1850萬台幣那我們這個開罰的目的並不是為了報復最重要我們是希望它改變行為的模式就如同我剛才跟委員報告的他們已經利用AI的方式主動攔阻這個780萬則這個涉及詐騙的訊息這個都 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3102.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3120.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這些詐騙訊息不是說上架以後再放下來很多都是在上架之前Meta就利用AI的方式部長我再一次提醒你你現在這種金額雖然創下財閥的一個新高但是跟平台的廣告收益來相比 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3121.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3139.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
还是不成比例如果说我们按照欧盟的数位服务法就是DSA它是以全球营收的百分比作为罚款的一个上限那书画部应该来作为一个参考来研究修法的可能性来说明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3139.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3157.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
是 跟委員報告歐盟它是因為它用它這個營收的百分比來裁罰這個在歐盟跟美國之間產生了非常大的貿易紛爭我們也知道說現在美國對各國祭出所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3160.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3184.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那個關稅那這個事情事實上是相當有爭議的因為照理說我們財閥應該是針對你犯了什麼錯跟你財閥什麼事情而不是針對對你說你的營業額是多少我抽一個百分之多少的一個財閥這個基本上是一種數位稅美國政府認為是一種數位稅我們不是完全贊同美國的方法如果以全球營收的這種百分比來它具有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3185.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3202.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
争议的一个空间但是目前的罚款过低也是一个不争的事实如果跟他的广告收入来相比的话是差距太大了是这个我们也都完全了解那如同我刚才跟委员所报告我们最重要的目的是希望Meta改变他的行为 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3202.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3230.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那那個之前我想委員一定講的就是說之前有一個新聞說那個Meta他有很大的10%的收入廣告收入是來自於詐騙集團這個事實上就是一年多以前Meta他自己內部的分析報告他們的檢討報告那我們知道這個事情以後我們也非常認為說非常的不合理所以我們就要求Meta一定改變他的行為他們以前認為說在打詐這件事情上他們只是一個旁觀者他只是一個bystander我們現在要求他加入我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3231.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3254.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
加入我們這個好人隊一起做打詐的行為部長 目前詐騙集團是大量的利用第三方支付的平台申請虛擬帳號來進行相關的洗錢那速發部當然有推動第三方支付能量的這種登錄的機制但是第三方支付仍然是詐騙跟洗錢的一個溫床 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3255.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3272.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
相關的蘇華部有什麼更具體的措施嗎在第一個就是說第三方支付原來台灣是採取登記制你只要登記就可以做這件事情那總共有一萬多家的廠商登記那我們自從實施這個能量登錄以後事實上真正 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3273.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3296.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
申請能量登錄大概有80幾家然後通過的目前有53家然後我們在今年廢止了4家又新增了4家廢止了4家就是我們去做實地查核以後我們發覺說它這個營業是有問題的它可能是涉及第三方支付的洗錢部長我還是要提醒你詐騙集團利用第三方支付來作為一個工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3296.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3309.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
它進行這種代收轉付導致這種金流的追蹤是極度的困難那財閥跟納管的強度還是有待提升我們看目前多數的財閥法 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3311.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3320.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
目前多數的財閥都是依據洗錢防治法那其實它的花款只有15萬至30萬之間那對於動輒金手這種數億金流的這種業者來說是不夠相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3329.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3342.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
鄭哲利 這個是必須要檢討的最後讓你說明是 我們事實上速發部這邊速產署非常的主動我們今年就是主動發現透過能量登錄我們主動發現像說台灣里 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3350.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3371.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們針對這個第三方支付的部分我們其實是百分之百的去做行政查核那一旦我們在發現他的狀況有問題的時候我們就會提供情資給我們的相關的檢調單位跟法務部所以因為這樣其實我們這一次的台灣里的破獲其實事實上是跟法務部一起共同來破獲這樣子的一個集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3372.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3394.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
部長最後我提醒你相關的數位經濟的防詐措施數位部有基本的對策跟做法但成效還是不髒有基本的規範這個要繼續努力我們會努力但是不至於成效不髒我們剛才那個報告也看到其實我們最近應該是做出一些成績出來了成效不髒這不是我在交通委員會的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3395.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3423.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這是全民對於政府對於打詐的努力雖然有看到努力但是成效還是要繼續努力我們會努力我們絕對會努力但是也給我們的同仁一些鼓勵吧我想我們這個下架了這麼多的那個詐騙訊息然後我們就是因為這個詐騙有線上線下鼓勵要有督促也要有那對於防詐是我們的一個基本責任保障人民的財產安全也是我們重要的責任以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3426.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3455.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
好 謝謝來 部長請回接下來再請林國成委員 繼續謝謝主席請我們數位部林部長來 林部長請來 內政部我們張主任林部長還有行政院指揮中心的王子密來 主任 子密請 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3459.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3483.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
委員長好部長我想你變彩無礙但是到了立法院我要建議你多做少變我沒有很多你還說沒有我現在在講我的對你的建言你開始就要變了你還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3484.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3501.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以我跟你講沒有事實你可以變因為政務官捍衛你的政策這是理所當然但是不要一提到你的夜館的東西跟議題你就開始要變我們知道你很認真啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3502.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3520.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
你從政治的時候 起來當部長的時候 你也很認真啊可是問題 所看到 民意代表所看到的東西根本打詐就沒有進步嘛越打越詐 那是一個事實嘛所以 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3521.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3536.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
你也知道我長期在我們交通委員會我對你這些為什麼要給你建言說實在的 真的探討問題不是用辯的就可以解決因為現在數位部 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3539.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3561.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
慢慢進入狀況這是事實慢慢去改進也是事實可是不要忘了立法委員在給你的建言有時候用狡辯的方式我是不認同這種做法這特別我要提醒你來那個小紅書剛才召委已經談過了這個議題也吵了很大來 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3565.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3583.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
部長你認定小紅書它是平台還是網頁小紅書它有網站事實上它有網站也有APP它本身是一個平台好來張主任請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3588.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3610.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
到底是行政院詐騙指揮中心要你們進或者你們要進的請問一下報告委員首先先跟委員報告其實在打詐的策略東西我知道我知道是你們主動要進的或者行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3611.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3629.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那個打炸中心要你們進的我要的是這個答案班委員我們針對這個四大業者七個平台以及這個小紅書衛納館的平台其實我們一直都會去做搜報及受理包案所以本身我們就會去做你給我講那麼多張主任是張主任我問你是誰進的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3631.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3651.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
因為現在不是我們數位部主動禁是內政部上來的東西那有沒有受行政院之指示說這個要禁因為你們持有的理由就是詐騙金額非常高是嗎 是你們主動的或者上面指示的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3652.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3671.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
鮑威我們是有開會做很多的討論平台討論這個張主任你不要在那邊拐彎抹角我問你是你們決定的或者行政院決定的或者我們數位部自己決定我敢保證我們數位部沒有你們的申請他不會做這個事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3672.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3698.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
是你們對不對內政部那個不要閃啦你們部長自己本身都在講啦所以這個我跟你講張主任是我想你們這個很辛苦啦但是不要在那邊拐彎抹角那沒意思啦那沒意思好來那個部長那我要請教一下依照你們的數據到底Meta或者卻 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3701.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3705.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
到底小紅書的詐騙案件多或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3707.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3732.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
小紅書多來 那個張主任你們有數據到底確Meta哪一個詐騙的多哪一個報言確實比例上是Meta多因為我們受理報案的部分是不要再講那為什麼先進小紅書呢小紅書的內容你們有沒有查過他多前國的女性在有關美妝的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3733.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3758.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
你哪一件說他用美妝去做詐欺的動作那金額當然有因為現在不管是平台也好網站也好確實詐騙大家科技時代大家都在這裡打賺所以每一次林部長都被我們罵東倒西歪可是你們地點你們是第一線的人在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3759.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3781.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
數位部是配合你們你們只要依法有紀的東西我就把它停掉問題在這裡所以我剛才為什麼要問你們是內政部或者我們數位部主動進那我也剛才跟你以我個人的經驗我們數位部不會直接進嘛一定依法有紀你們申報上來他才去做這個事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3782.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3808.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
不是這樣嗎所以你現在也講出Meta他的詐騙事情比較多但是我在這裡有一個理由也特別部長你也了解一下也就是小紅書本來就傅尼最喜愛的這些有關他們美妝跟美容等等這些主要但是詐騙當然是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3810.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3835.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那有你要個案那現在來部長我要請教一下我他有平台那我們是不是依照我們的法令也就是我們的24條社群平台跟依照27條之規定要先納管再來處理可是我們現在沒有納管啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3836.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3846.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你有蠟管嗎沒有對那為什麼要去用用那個27條去馬上把它停掉因為我們的步驟不是用27條是42條你用42條對啦就是內重部用42條不是束髮部用42條 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3851.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3872.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
他就是詐欺剛才我已經問出來了那個Meta當然詐欺那個詐的案件跟金額是比多了好幾倍可是為什麼他不停那為什麼小紅書要停你是在欺負這些我們全國的婦女朋友最需要的美妝的有關知性嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3874.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3894.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
已經跟委員報告過了這個是內政部第四條做的決定然後通知TWNIC然後由TWNIC執行進行DNSRPZ的封阻那這個事情我們速發布是TWNIC的監管機關但是這個決定的部分還是要請教內政部是啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3895.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3915.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以我剛才一直都沒有問你嘛我也講說這個決定不是你在決定嘛你是要依照他們開會的決定移送來你來執行嘛所以對不對所以我剛才已經跟你講我保證不是你們主動嘛是內政部嘛所以我們說實在我希望呼籲你 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3916.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3941.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
在執行任何事情要有公平性不要兩種標準該停的就停違法的就停不配合還是繼續在打詐那配合打詐不注重政府的法令該停的就停不是因為小紅書是對岸的因為Meta就是美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3942.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3963.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
你們就不敢停就是只有停對岸的這個是直滑不能雙重標準這是我今天要提醒打炸這個部分要特別小心的好不好來 接下來我要特別再請問部長花絕到整個不滑最近 下張 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3966.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3992.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
最近有詐騙升級又第二次詐騙可是這個詐騙手法過去他是用什麼投資等等這些現在更厲害的是變成用司法假冒利是破壞司法的信任請問一下來張主任你們現在有沒有針對這個問題去做追查有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3996.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4010.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
A班委員我們這個部分是持續都在追查而且一直在想方設法可是現在是非常猖獗張主任帶回去是比照這個就是所謂的二次詐騙跟委員報告其實我們都有在注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4011.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4028.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有注意但是非常猖狂啦你有時候平台跟那個進去看一看為什麼本席要提出這些謝委員是二次詐騙是非常嚴重第二個利用律師破壞司法的信任那更嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4029.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4048.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
是 所以包括委員所以我們一直在強一直在大力的推動潛在被害人的制度就是希望各相關部會獲得這個我們已經撈出的潛在被害人希望包括二次詐騙的希望各相關部會能夠配合去辦理那實際上各部會都非常的積極在努力包括公司協力好啦 那個張主任我希望啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4049.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4072.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我希望你們要去注重這些正式跟你們檢舉用專案去做這些這個跟生病一樣發現病狀在哪邊我們要馬上醫治該切除的要切除該吃藥的要吃藥所以現在這個是非常嚴重的所以張主任你要把資料把它帶回去那我也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4072.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4100.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我們林部長這裡如果依照這些因為我們有自己的主管司所以希望他們也可以去發解問題不需要因為內政部也不需要任何一個單位發現不華發現是詐騙那當然我們要主動出擊這一點我要勉勵我們數位部林部長跟我們各司還有另外張主任要把這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4102.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4125.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
把他專案帶回去這非常嚴重是 謝委員非常嚴重所以這個本席在這裡要拜託部長還有拜託我們主任這個部分要把他當成一為是這是詐騙的溫床盡快解決破滑失滑的信任這非常之嚴重的好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林國森委員來 謝謝我們官員請回好 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4131.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4158.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
接下來請陳樹越委員謝謝主席請主席邀請肅發部林部長林部長請還有我們內政務刑事局詐欺犯罪防制中心張主任張主任請委員早安部長早部長麥克風開一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4161.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4186.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
部長早還有主任早我們知道其實現在詐騙非常猖獗也是國人深惡痛絕的所以不管朝野大家都對這個議題非常的關心也都是一致要求我們政府一定要展現這個打詐的這個決心跟魄力我們看到在這個165打詐儀表板專網上線之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4188.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4202.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所公布的這個就是財損的數字還有這個受理的數字在113年8月份我們是剛開始公告公開就是揭露這樣子的一個資訊那時候的財損這個數字高達138.3億那件數的話是 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4211.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4238.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
21,244件那我們看到截至目前為止就是我們11月份就是今年的11月份整個件數就是已經就是下降到13,559件然後財損的數字也下降到59.91億就數字來看我們是有下降的一個趨勢可是對國人的感受來說部長跟主任你們覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4240.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4264.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們速發部這邊負責的是網路上面的詐騙訊息現在網路詐騙訊息經過我們成立網詐通報查詢網然後再來就是請Meta還有Line加入我們打詐行列以後網路上的詐騙訊息應該已經是減少了但是現在有很多網路詐騙已經轉為其他的方式譬如說直接用手機打電話甚至於登門 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4265.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4293.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
造訪等等那這些事情我們還是會持續跟內政部密切合作因為他們在詐騙的過程中多少還是會運用到像LINE這樣的那個那個網路通訊媒體等等那我們還是會持續想辦法繼續讓這個數字往下降就是說就打架表板所揭露的這個數字就是受理數字跟財損數字都有呈現下降的趨勢這個本席當然予以肯定那我們要感謝我們所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4293.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4313.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
相關的這個單位通力的一個合作可是我們也看到現在整個詐騙的一個結構犯罪結構也正在轉變其中一項很明顯的就是這個外籍詐騙車手人數的急劇攀升這個也是我們從警政署這邊調閱的統計資料可以看得出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4313.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4335.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
就是從110年到今年114年涉案的外籍車手的人數真的是暴增所以就這個部分我們要怎樣去就是有什麼樣的實質的作為來針對防止外籍移工淪為詐騙的車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4337.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4354.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
是謝謝委員 先跟委員致謝事實上這個我先跟各委員報告說其實我投身在打仗的時間大概已經二十六七年了事實上我跟大家報告其實在最近這幾年事實上真的相關的包括所有委員的督促 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4354.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4375.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
然後鼓勵我們真的在最近這兩三年真的已經是大幅下降尤其從去年到今年這個真的已經發揮功效所以實際上要讓這個詐騙你說絕跡減少到很少很少這不是一蹴可擊但是實際上真的減少到59%我們有看到這個是真的是相關部為他合作的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4375.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4402.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那再來其實針對有關這一個外籍車友這個事情實際上在今年1月呢其實在行政院打壓中心包括我們部長署長局長其實都已經一直在要求外籍車友他會高發的原因事實上從去年12月我們就已經有注意到包括國籍他轉變到某一個國籍因為我現在不能說是哪一個國籍他的外籍暴增其實這個會暴增的原因其實就是因為跟我們的打炸策略有關因為我們強力的包括像關懷 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4403.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4432.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
林桂關懷銀行非常的幫忙所以他們轉向就用現場去提款車手那因為我們對於車手的刑責加重所以他們就會去找少年找外籍那外籍會增加原因是因為他們會利用短期簽證進來的一個原因然後甚至包括戴口罩所以這個部分呢其實我們也在想方設法包括跟移民署還有跟這一個我們的那個集政署國際我們都有在想說如何透過廉政中心包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4433.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4451.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
移民的單位把這個身份辨識出來所以這個部分跟委員報告其實這個部分我們目前包括最近都開了好幾次的會議希望說能夠間接相關的系統包括我們在全國的刑事工作會報州局長其實就有預定我們要整合一個平台讓各縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4452.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4472.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
的這一個從熱點車手發現到的車手戴口罩的影像如果是外籍的話如何間接到移民署的系統立刻辨識出來在他出境前來進行攔截謝謝就如同張主任剛說的因為我們打炸就是有成效所以致使這個在聘集團他們真的也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4473.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4493.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
會變形就是這個結構就在改變那我們也看到有這個打詐專主的檢察官有指出就是我們為了防堵詐騙所以各銀行加強這個管控轉帳機制還有降低額度所以這個詐團線上取款的門路就受阻了所以就是增加這個面交的這樣子的一個車手需要這個大量的這樣的車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4494.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4517.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以進而就是吸引更多的外籍人士跟移工來就是從事這樣子的一個非法的一個行為那因為這個移工的涉案的部分我們又可以從他們的涉案的一個身分別依這個合法移工非法移工外籍學生以及持觀光簽證入境的這樣子的分類我們可以看到非法移工跟持觀光簽證的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4520.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4539.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個件數是非常的高那剛剛主任有提到就是說他們會利用這個觀光簽證短期入境然後來從事這樣子的一個非法行為那他們就是說就這樣子的一個身份別的一個結構來看他們要能夠說在這樣子一個短期的時間進來然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4540.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4567.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
可以受到指揮他們應該就是透過社群平台透過網路那這部分我們要怎樣去加強比如說包括我們要怎樣透過這個網路平台去宣導讓這些外籍移工要提醒他們不要去從事這個非法行為那另外一方面就是說要怎樣從這個社群平台去就是可以去就是注意到這一些非法的移工的行為那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4569.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4596.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
OK 我們會朝著那個委員所建議和指導的方向我們去進行那此外也跟委員報告因為現在我們已經跟台灣幾家比較大的金融機構合作就是說如果有人去提款的時候戴著口罩或甚至於戴著那個機車安全帽的話那這個ATM那個自動提款機就會要求他脫下他的口罩否則就不會吐款給他像這種科技的手段我們會持續進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4600.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4621.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
剛剛委員會有很多委員在關心小紅書的部分我們知道社群平台也真的變成是詐騙集團的一個溫床跟管道目前相關的平台業者有沒有配合我們打詐的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4623.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4647.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
有 在目前配合的狀況像是Google它配合的狀況一向都很好然後那個Meta原來大概一年多以前它配合狀況比較不好那現在已經好很多了那如同我之前報告的它現在就是利用我們送給它的24萬多筆的詐騙資料他們訓練他們的AI模型結果主動下架了超過780萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息那LINE也都還好 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4651.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4658.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
是 那有配合的當然我們也要感謝他們那對不配合的我們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4659.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4686.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以跟委員報告就是我們依據可以配合的就是必須要用29跟39來去做管理那實際上確確實實這一兩年來確實相關的七個平台他們都有在進步那我們在針對小紅樹部分因為實在是聯繫請他們去做相關的配套措施他們都確實沒有理所以我們包括其實在打詐欺表辦裡面我們針對各種類型的詐騙不管你是很高的或者是很少我們都會想方設法當然我們會有權重哪一個是優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4689.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4705.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那針對你這個無法管的我們就只好採取就是依照42條在依法行政的方法之下給他停止解析跟限制接取所以這個部分其實我們是還是必須要想方設法不管是哪一種的詐騙類型我們都會盡量去做一個防堵以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4706.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4733.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
是 就是其實就是小紅書因為他對我們政府的這個詐騙的這個政策就是我們要求他的部分他就是不配合嘛 對不對就是以讀不回嘛然後包括他在台灣也沒有這個代理人沒有法人代表所以就是說對於他們沒有遵守我們的這個法律當然我們也有權利來要求他就是我們跟他停止解析嘛也不是禁止嘛 是不是那是不一樣的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4734.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4760.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們是針對它的詐欺網站那因為詐欺網站它的Domain下面的那一個就是APP那個當然它有時候會可能相同但是也會有不同的狀況所以我們實際上是針對它的詐欺網址下面的Domain的那一個網域是 所以張主任你要講清楚針對它詐欺的網頁不然剛剛有委員在關心說有女性朋友沒有辦法得到美容資訊事實上這個美容資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4761.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4781.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
包括Meta Google其實都很多不一定說一定要靠這個小紅書才能夠得到這樣子的一個資訊其實我們也從國家安全局所揭露的資料來看我們可以看到說國家安全局最近他有表示就是說針對中國製的應用程式進行資安檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4783.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4798.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
供給檢測包括違反個資權限等15項指標小紅書APP全數不合格所以對這樣的嚴重的問題就是事實上就是說對於小紅書市井的第一個市井的反而是中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4799.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4820.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
中華人民共和國這個張主任知道嗎部長知道嗎 包委員我知道他們在去年吧還是前年我忘了確實有揭露啦那其實好像是今年小紅書其實有針對他們的部分也有做立刻的改善我記得也確實是有這一個新聞的揭露以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4820.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4849.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
是 就是说其实有时候这个他们就是会利用就是民众消费者他们就是对某项商品的一个兴趣就是透过这样子的方式来获得他们的个资所以这个也是一个非常严重的一个问题所以事实上我们就是说对于政府打仗的一个策略跟政策我们都是予以支持的那我们也希望就是这个在野党的立委不要一边 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4850.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4875.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
要求還是一邊批評說政府打詐沒有成效那一邊又對於政府的這個就是相關的一個手段又予以就是這個就是批評這樣子好謝謝非常感謝委員的支持與指教謝謝好謝謝陳水委員來部長請回好接下來再請何新成委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4881.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4908.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
謝謝召委孟凱我們是不是請我們數位發展部我們林部長林宜靜部長請蘇委員早安部長早在進入我今天專案報告的防詐騙的主題之前我想大家都很關心因為今天一早就發現應該是說一早從媒體我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4910.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4939.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
張文的這個孤狼式的犯罪他籌劃了很久他連續購買了13把長短刀全部靠網購我們在談詐騙的時候就是在所謂的網路社群平台的一個交易行為我們要設斷點希望能夠教民眾市詐 防詐 阻詐但是我們現在又出現了一個議題就是原來我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4940.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4959.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個張文孤郎市的一個犯案他的所有的一個犯罪工具都來自於網購是部長你對這一個事情你的第一個看法是那我們要應該跟網路平台第一個你說下禮拜一要喝咖啡要談要談什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4960.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4986.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
第二個我們是不是應該檢討我們現在這個所有的平行輸入或者是小包裹輸入的一個機制政府該不該來好好的來檢討為什麼我們沒有辦法第一時間即時性的察覺原來有這些危險物品是透過網路 透過海關透過這樣子的一個交易行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4988.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5004.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個SOP到底政府能不能有效的去預防跟嚇子是 非常同意委員的看法不過跟委員報告我不是下個禮拜一要跟他們談我是上個禮拜一前天已經跟他們談過了可是上個禮拜一談的時候這個禮拜一 上次的那個禮拜一來個禮拜一不重要重要的是談論的議題是什麼有談出什麼結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5017.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5033.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
對 OK 我正要跟委員報告那就是說基本上我們網路上購買一些物品有些是管制品管制品通常是不能直接購買但是有些就是介於這種有風險的譬如說刀子這種產品那我們現在的方向是說第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5034.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5046.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
就是說我們應該把這些產品分類有些產品是應該是用實名制或者是類實名制才能購買我們現在剛好速發部推出一個數位憑證皮夾的機構這個可以用來認證購買者的身分就是說到底是誰購買了這個產品老師部長我現在要提的這個我當然願意支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5058.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5085.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是呢所謂的這個品項的認定除了數位發展部跟其他部會要跨部會的來認定什麼叫做類危險或者是需要類管理的這樣子的品項我剛剛講的張文他透過網購買了13把長短刀那他的時間長達一年多那如果按照我們現在國人的安全跟防衛心理 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5086.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5100.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
是期待政府能夠提出有效的因應方法來防止有下一次的這樣子的一個網購13把短刀的個案出現是 這個可以從三個方面來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5101.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5129.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
清楚的講清楚是 我們現在跟他講我們有三個方式來處理第一個就是說在對於這個比較危險的這些物品我們那個應該是說在購買的時候他如果沒有做出身份證明的話我就不讓他購買這是一種方式那另外一種方式是說他可以購買但是他必須留下他的身份證明資料那到時候如果發生事情呢發生了事情我們的警政單位還可以去搜查那另外一點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5131.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5158.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
當然沒有人會希望發生事情然後另外一個就是說他如果購買的數量不合常理的話那我們可以利用AI的方式或者是資料匯流的機制我們去查說一般人不會買13把刀這個是一個異常的狀況那我們就可以去主動去偵查那這個事情當然是說是內政部警政署這邊他們主責但是我們事務發布作為一個技術的機關我們一定會全力配合然後主動去找出方法來解決這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5159.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5184.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那這件事要花多久的時間來研擬這個事情如果說技術上的話那我們當然是說馬上就去做的話快的話是半年慢的話是一年但是跟委員報告我是來自於科技界我是來自於產業界這個事情我沒辦法說我下個禮拜就可以就給你這個真是沒有辦法但是我的意思是說你要跟內政部其他跨部會的會議最近一次要什麼時候開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5185.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5191.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
OK我想這個一個月之內我們找他開會絕對沒有問題我們非常主動的第一個我建議禁訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5193.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5220.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是一个月对我们而言对国人而言还太慢了是没问题尽数是早来开会是把你刚刚讲的需要类管理的品项有哪些是需要实名制或者是你的数位皮夹制的一个推动是你刚刚讲的三个方式要有马上有一个结论来告诉国人让国人可以安心是政府是有效的有积极的作为希望能够防止因应 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5221.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5228.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
是非常同意委員的看法非常同意所以不要一個月趕快等一下離開這個會場就趕快跟內政部約談怎麼樣來研擬這個防治的機制好不好好沒問題好那接著詐騙是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5238.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5254.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
行動支付有九成人在使用的這個是支撐會的報告那我簡短行動支付分兩種第三方支付跟電子支付第三方支付誰監管我們速發部監管就是你嘛好我今天就要談第三方支付的事情那下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5256.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5268.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
涉及洗錢的事你也知道嗎這個我根據媒體講的最近這幾年來光是就有1234世家的一個第三方支付的平台洗錢的案例協助詐團不罰業者洗錢超過800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5271.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5284.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是我要根據你們訴發部提供給本席的資料你說你們針對第三方支付涉有洗錢都有在積查本年度共裁罰10家業者裁罰金額總計280萬元這兩個數字看起來差很大第三方支付協助詐團不罰業者洗錢超過800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5297.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5298.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
結果我們訴發部說我們有在做事我們有在稽查我裁罰了10家業者我裁罰的是283萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5306.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5318.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
跟委員報告這幾家就是我們主動集合查出來的是我們主動發現的所以這個事實上就是義配 旺佩大還有台灣禮這幾家這幾家已經停業了嘛對不對對對對 都是我們主動發現的不是我們事後發現第一個我要建議你主動發現了那你要讓國人知道這是政府積極作為主動發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5329.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5350.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我跟你讲你没讲没人知道这是你们主动发现的第二个我们有召开记者会召开记者会还不够召开记者会还不够第二个你们财阀的金额相对的少 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5352.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5360.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這讓人家看起來一個是被民眾被詐團被不法業者洗錢的這個金額超過800億我們10家業者的裁罰283萬元是 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5364.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5389.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我覺得這個不符合比例當然我不知道你們的行政裁量權是如何我是建議你們第一個主動的發現第三方支付涉及洗錢是你們主動通報那這個除了記者會之外應該要用各式各樣的方式讓國人知道政府是積極的在打擊不法第二個我覺得裁法的行政的一個基準是不是應該調整這個你們去研議下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5392.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5410.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但是我還是要提醒在你們給我的報告說2024年完成了百分之百針對第三方支付的查核但是你看根據媒體根據檢調的查案合法的第三方支付還是替詐團博弈洗錢80億 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5414.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5431.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
跟委員報告有關這一件就是國生的這一塊其實事實上他在最早112年9月的時候做這個能量登錄之後其實事實上我們有進行過三次的這個行政檢查每次所以是只有行政檢查你的這一句話告訴我們只有行政檢查然後我們把 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5433.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5460.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
對我們其實是進行要求他的一些限期改善並且把相關的資訊會提供給檢調單位去做一個這個查核然後另外呢這家公司就是因為他後來發現說他這個部分他其實不符合相關的規定他也已經沒有辦法依照我們的限期來做改善他自己來申請廢止這個能量登錄所以他在二月已經廢止能量登錄他就不能提供就是他不能提供虛擬帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5461.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5472.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
來進行他第三方支付這樣的一個業務然後之後再讓這個檢警調來將他這整個的所以是你們移送了嗎我們有做情資的一些交換你有做情資的交換對交換給對 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5475.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5498.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
已经交给好了那你就讲说是你的情职提供给减掉那我们现在要讲是合法的第三方支付涉及洗钱涉及博弈那这些涉及不法的我觉得我们要勇于举发他原来是合法他如果做了不该不合法的事情就已经不是合法所以国人会对这个产生信任的问题我最后一个就是要告诉 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5499.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5522.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
速發部事實上很多的這個信任的對第三方支付不信任或者是常發生一些問題我覺得在正面的這個積極的讓消費者知道說他如何自保權益這部分速發部也應該要廣大的宣傳跟教導現在第三方支付他們也成立了一個協會那他們這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5524.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5549.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
優良的廠商 正派的廠商他們也非常的積極在宣傳這件事情因為他們就是希望跟那些不良的不法的廠商把它切割 區隔出來所以我們現在努力跟那個第三方支付的協會合作擴大宣導好 以上 會後再給我剛剛要的資料好不好 謝謝好 謝謝何新成委員來 官員請回好 接下來再請黃捷委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5559.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5587.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請林部長來 林怡靜部長請報告委員早安部長早 我看副署長也在旁邊上禮拜其實我們省打炸專法的時候有跟副署長有達成一個協議就是接下來要請速發部來加強這些大型平台的網路透明化的程度那當然希望這個我們要努力的監管他們好嗎先請部長承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5587.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5595.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
沒問題啊這本來就是我們的職責好 這個要拜託你們持續的追蹤那我今天要跟部長討論的是另外一件事情因為最近這個路透社有報導說Meta為了要維持來自中國的詐騙的廣告商的營收每年高達數十億美元可能是近千億的台幣這樣的營收然後呢他們實施了一個白名單的制度就是說你付錢給Meta然後你就被加入那個名單加入這個名單之後呢他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5616.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5631.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
可以這些廣告商就即便他的廣告被AI判定為有可能是有潛在風險或是可能是詐騙訊息但是沒關係他幫你人工審查這就是我們看到的當然我們不確定說這樣的制度是只有在中國還是只有在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5632.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5651.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
當然我們看到會恐慌說這樣的白名單制度Meta是不是在全球各國可能連台灣是不是都有這樣的制度在施行所以我要在這邊拜託部長的是第一個其實在歐洲他們的數位服務法裡面我之前也跟副署長討論過很多次就是他們34條35條都很明確說超大型平台你們自己要有系統的風險評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5656.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5667.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那這個風險評估包括什麼就是你自己認定說有可能哪幾類是有風險的訊息那你自己要做基本的控管嘛然後包括說很明顯是非法的內容你要確保說這些非法的內容他們不會透過你的平台產生營收 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5674.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5694.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那這些其實都是數位服務法裡面定的非常清楚的所以我是第一個希望的是我們台灣是不是也可以比較歐洲的數位服務法來跟超大型平台來談說他們可不可以自己做到系統性的風險評估第二個要確保在台灣不會有所謂的白名單制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5695.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5711.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
跟委員報告那個委員剛剛所提到那個路透社的那則新聞是最近揭露的可是它裡面講的是說一份那個META在去年2024年年初的一個報告內部的報告那事實上它自己檢討的報告那裡面所描述的那些行為我們絕對 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5713.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5741.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
不同意而且我們不允許他那些事情發生那在去年520我上任以後那我們也是積極的跟那個Meta一直做溝通協調那我們都是叫跟他明確的講說這些事情都不能再發生所以在我們的努力之下現在Meta他的做法應該都已經改善就是說您提到那幾件事情應該據我了解應該是沒有再發生然後他們現在也積極配合我們我們用網站通報查詢網 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5742.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5756.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
通報他們超過24萬則的詐騙訊息他們都是在24小時之內下架絕大部分當然還有幾件被我們裁罰的另外他們自己也主動利用AI的方式下架了780 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5758.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5784.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
其实我有看到部长的脸书发文就是说你们跟他们很努力的合作平台下架23万折的诈骗讯息然后也跟他们一起训练AI拦阻了430万折针对台湾的诈骗现在数字最新的数字已经是780万折了OK好这个当然我们在台湾很努力的在做可是我们看到的是Meta一面在台湾说要阻挡诈骗广告结果在中国一面在收钱放诈骗广告 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5786.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5801.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我不知道說Meta在全球是這樣子兩面手法還是怎麼樣因為我們都知道說中國的詐騙廣告其實算是很努力的詐騙的廣告輸出國全台灣在臉書上廣告很多詐騙訊息幾乎都是來自中國嘛這個是他們自己的統計數據啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5802.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5822.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那怎么会让他们继续玩这种两面手法委员既然看过我的脸书贴文你也知道我们这个事情我们是希望扩大好人对那我们也是跟美国政府那边有沟通然后请他们的协助然后现在柬埔寨的诈骗园区发现是城市的太子集团 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5823.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5835.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們一直都有來做這個事情然後我們也透過美國的這些外交管道就是對META表達我們的關切就是對他們施加一些壓力這個事情我們都持續在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5836.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5856.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好所以拜託部長我剛講兩件事超大型平台像Meta這個他們自己該做的系統性風險評估竟然在歐洲能做在台灣也能做第二個台灣絕對不可以讓他們有所謂的白名單制度不可以說你收了廣告商的錢就讓他們用人工審查的方式刻意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5856.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5874.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
讓他們持續洩露這一些非法的訊息在網路上然後我要跟部長報告你現在你打臉請各位你現在就上臉書搜尋說全台收卡搜尋說真做業員然後一個月有十幾萬二十萬甚至上達五六十萬的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5875.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5881.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
你就大概知道這是在幹嘛了這個應該是詐騙訊息如果有人看到的話麻煩幫我們做宣傳利用我們網站通報查詢網馬上通報我們就會馬上通知所以臉書還是上面還是有很多的詐騙訊息嗎在買人頭賬戶的 在徵車手的這些訊息都很多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5895.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5917.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
是 所以我們就是利用那個第一個我們用那個希望民眾看到的就是再次講一次利用我們網站通報查詢網那個舉手治老把這個網把這個網址貼到我們這個查詢網之後我們就自動分案自動確認找那個確認這個應該是監管會要做確認然後接下來我們就自動通知Meta或者是Google或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5918.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5938.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
YouTube這些平台要他馬上下架那這個都是法律上有規定他在接到我們通知之後必須在24小時之內下架如果沒有下架我們就會開罰好這個拜託請大家現在收是不是很多全台收卡還在買人頭賬戶的廣告超多拜託馬上下架謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝來接下來請黃建豪委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5948.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5960.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
本席宣告一下我們在蔡其昌委員質詢結束之後我們休息十分鐘謝謝好 謝謝趙偉我們一樣請數位部林部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5969.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5991.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
國賢早安部長早部長我們今天針對當然是針對詐騙的問題那當然其實第一個我想大家很關心說過去這段時間Meta的這個詐騙的通報的數量非常非常的高啊這樣的比例那你看其實我們看Meta的營收在這個整個12月預估的話它全年的營收會有161美金在台灣的部分因為台幣大概4957億元這樣的狀況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5993.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5996.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那過去這段時間我們從2025年因為我知道數位部很認真確實有在開罰但是我們看數字2025年5月的時候罰100萬那2025年6月的時候罰1500萬那這2025年8月罰250萬總計罰1850萬那這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6011.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6033.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
如果只是單一個人是很高啦但是你針對Meta這個大公司1850萬大概還不超過他一小時廣告投放的這個收入所以我想這個這樣子的裁罰的這個金額其實我覺得對Meta可能是無關痛癢坦白說那另外一個問題就想我請教一下到底當初就是2025年5月罰100萬然後2025年8月罰250萬但是6月的時候要罰1500萬中間的過程是什麼是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6039.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6046.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
檢舉數量變多還是你們裁罰的標準怎麼改變或是怎麼樣才能夠提升說要能夠把這個真的詐騙廣告來把它撤除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6046.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6075.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
OK 跟委員報告因為我們認為說我們技術這個財閥這個金額的確對Meta這樣的公司來講不是一筆很大的數字但是我們財閥的主要目的不是為了報復不是說我們缺錢又跟他要錢我們最重要是希望他改變他的行為那我們希望說他不能在這件事情上他作為一個旁觀者他以前收這些錢不管是詐騙集團或者是正常的人投放廣告他都收我們要求他加入我們所謂的好人隊一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6076.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6098.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
做這個詐騙的工作這個是我們的目標在這裡那效果看起來有限到目前為止第一個我們透過書發部的網站通報查詢網從去年9月到現在已經跟他們通報超過24萬則的詐騙訊息那他們都請他們下架了然後接下來他們就用這24萬則訊息去訓練他們的AI系統告訴他們AI系統說這個台灣的詐騙到底長什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6105.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6132.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
然後他們自己主動用AI的方式已經下架超過780萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息部長 其實你剛剛在回應其他委員的時候提到一個很關鍵的重點我也想這邊再提出來其實這兩天不是 今天金港會發了一個新聞講說我們全台灣這個社群的詐騙的金額下降但我想實際上就其實是部長你剛剛提到其實我們是透過真的要透過外交的方式包含說你就製造跟美國這樣子的國家去反映這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6132.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6153.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我想最近大家看到國際新聞知道說包含泰國軍方包含各國軍方對這個柬埔寨動手所以他是把整個園區抄掉了包含說他的金流包含他這個基房包含人員等等的所以當然你把整個他的基地這個抄掉之後當然我們整體金額會下降所以我覺得這個可能才是真正能夠把這個園頭阻炸把它打斷不然其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6153.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6170.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
速發部我們每天在檢舉每天在AI在那邊搜尋到底有多少廣告但如果能夠從源頭把這個核心的問題把它解決掉的話那可能一勞永逸會比較效果會更加明確所以我覺得部長剛剛講的美術系真的需要透過外交的手段或透過這種外交溝通的方式讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6172.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6188.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
Meta的母公司Meta公司的母國知道他們在世界各地有發生這樣的事情那這些來源到底來自於哪裡這部分我覺得是不是數位部能夠把相關的這個的數據做成這個記錄讓AIT也好或是其他的單位知道這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6188.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6203.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
是 這些事情我們其實都有密切的跟AIT還有Meta我們都有些交流尤其是MetaMeta我們一直要求說它一定要必須把這些事情做好然後因為Meta這家公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6205.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6227.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那個事實上他的行為應該是有改變那在最近就是我們看到一些作為已經比較積極了那在宣傳方面他們之前他們宣傳可能覺得說多一事不如少一事不要那我們也是跟他們講說你們做了什麼事情你們為了你們公司的商譽要不然就是這樣我們今天這個質詢很多的委員大家都覺得說台灣人對Meta的觀感很不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6227.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6250.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那我在這邊也要再次呼籲Meta就是說要趕快把這些事情要做而且要做好宣傳這樣子對你們的商業也是會有正面影響的部長這再麻煩你了再來就是其實一樣是相關的納管平台的問題其實之前前段時間大家也爭議過這件事情那包含今天的你們的書面報告裡面你們納管對象範圍公布了四家業者七個平台是 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6252.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6267.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
但是裡面還是沒有小紅書所以小紅書到底是不是說你們要規範要納管要公告的平台之一OK 我們這個納管的那個平台我們是依照打炸專法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6268.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6285.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
第27條那我們就是在台灣它因為規模超過一定的規模的平台我們才會納管那因為小紅書算是近年來才比較竄起的一個平台那它還沒達到我們速發部納管的標準那從27條到 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6288.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6302.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
炸防條例從27條到33條都是規範我們速發部如何去納管那個網路廣告平台那這次小紅書是內政部依照第42條那是走另外一條途徑就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6303.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6321.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有緊急案件的時候內政部可以直接要求對一些詐欺網站進行停止解析或限制接取的限制內政部就詢問給TWNIC然後TWNIC就去執行我們速發部是TWNIC的監督機關但是關於這個決策的過程可能還是要請教內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6325.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6336.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
沒關係啦 這個上次也在電視部大家都問過我只是說你們這個行政部門這個步驟你們的腳步不能不一致啦你們是所謂的數位平台的這個監管機關結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6338.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6365.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
在公文裡面或在相關的這個警告這個規範裡面沒有提到這個平台那結果這個平台突然中間有一段時間突然有其他單位說它是這個詐騙網站你就把它封掉了所以我覺得這個是比例原則的問題就之前NCCC也講過今天小紅書這個平台就像Meta一樣Meta是個大平台它裡面有詐騙所以我們是把詐騙的那個網頁或是那個帳號把它這個撤掉不是把整個網站把它封掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6366.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6381.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
理論上應該是這樣才有小紅書當然裡面可能會有詐騙或是有的沒有的所以你是把那個平台不是把整個平台把它禁掉應該是把裡面的某些帳號禁掉而已當然Telegram也是一樣因為Telegram也沒有在裡面所謂的納管業者他也不會 他也不可能落地啦坦白說 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6382.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6403.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那Telegram裡面也有很多什麼洗錢的有的沒有的像是之前我們那個兒少相關問題的你們也只是用相關技術不是把Telegram裡面某些頻道把它封掉你不是全台灣人上不了沒辦法使用Telegram所以我覺得這個邏輯在這種網絡社群上面我覺得你們秉持你們的專業你們應該要去跟所謂的主管機關就是隔壁的內政部講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6405.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6421.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我今天要做這件事情 我不是要把小紅書封掉是我把小紅書裡面涉及詐騙的這個帳號封掉才對啊好不好 你們可不可以去堅持一下這個專業是 我會鼓勵 謝謝謝謝委員這個部長請回 部長先請回那我們先請那個法務部檢察司司長 張司長張司長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6433.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6447.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
市長好市長好我想針對實務上討論其實今年1到8月我們青少年的嫌疑犯有4.5萬人涉嫌這個詐欺這個案件在案事程裡面我想是最多的另外就是說包含說我們詐欺罪都是受刑人兩年內的再犯罪情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6448.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6474.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因為要兩年內所以100從如果比較完整的數據111年我們再犯率這個2581人裡面有599人再犯所以比例高達23.2%那你看112年一年而已他再犯率大概10%左右所以他比例也快要到兩成了所以第一個我想問說就是到底我們整個法務部我們整個這個檢查機關對於這種受刑人有沒有什麼樣系統性的檢討他們到底為什麼第一個是那麼多這麼多年輕人去犯這個罪那他們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6475.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6493.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為18歲以下嘛所以他們可能他們的薪他們薪責也相對比較輕那是不是有集團他們是針對年輕人這部分在招收 在招募讓他們去做這個事情以及這種再販率的部分你們到底要怎麼處理要不然每次抓一抓大家第一線警察很辛苦然後把人抓了然後警察官扮演扮演很辛苦把人家抓了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6493.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6522.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
進去之後就出來出來之後就去騙包含說這兩天包含說我們去了解說整個監所的狀況監所現在可能很多地方它的這個比例超收非常嚴重但很多的問題就是因為這幾年詐騙犯在整個監所裡面所佔的比例也很高所以實務上來講可能法官他也不想要再把人送進去因為送進去也沒有位置放所以我想問一下到底整個法國部隊對於這種詐騙的不管是年輕人犯罪也好還是再犯罪也好你們有什麼樣的對策還是就這樣擺著反正法官判一判 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6523.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6546.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
進去之後出來再造然後他們又提升他們詐騙的技術會不會有這個問題謝謝委員的詢問有關青少年犯詐欺罪的部分因為少年犯的部分是由司法院來主責因為我們對於成少共犯的這種查緝也希望能夠強化查緝利用少年幕後的集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6547.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6569.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
對 那因此針對這個成少共犯的這個情形我們也則由台高檢署要求各地檢署必須要跟這個轄區的這個法院這邊那對於少年跟成年人可能共同犯罪這樣子的一個相關的證據的聯繫機制必須要有所建立那他們對於這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6570.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6582.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
承受共犯的犯罪情節要共同的來做一個幕後的這個溯源查緝的這個強化的工作那針對這個再犯的這種情形那詐為條例裡面那針對那個詐欺犯罪已經有提高這個假釋門檻那我們的矯正署呢也會強化這個在監所內的一個矯正的這個相關的一個機制以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6594.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6618.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我想這個剛剛因為提到說這個包含說我們對於未成年部分他後面有沒有整個集團共犯部分我希望說能夠有比較具體的檢討的數據啦就到底掌握多少還是說是個人個人個人的把他在車手抓了但是到底後面利用他們的這個集團是哪些幫派也好或是哪些這個組織也好這個是不是能夠請你們有明確掌握之後提供報告給北本席給我們委員會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6619.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6638.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
是好那針對那個陳紹共犯數據的話我們再補充給委員這邊來參考好謝謝市長謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員來官員請回好接下來再請魯明哲委員質詢那剛剛本席有宣告就我們質詢到蔡其昌委員結束之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6646.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6655.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好謝謝主席有請我們數位部林部長以及我們內政部警政署今天來的我們張主任來張主任請 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6658.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6685.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
委員早安早這個因為今天在談相關的一些議題但我首先問你因為從我們之前黃部長一直在推我們看到你這樣的這個網路詐騙通報查詢網我們在上幾個會期我們也有問到相關的一些問題當然我們希望花了錢能夠更有效率那我這個部分我們看到你這兩年都編了不少的一個預算那也正式正式在今年的五月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6686.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6710.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
上路了我也特別看到你們的報告目前下載的人數大概4萬6千多人我是在這邊溫馨提示一下就是說真的現在因為詐騙的不分年齡我們希望說你有這樣的一個反應的工具它並不是保護自己它反應出來之後它可以幫忙很多人不管他是幾歲的所以我們統計一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6710.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6720.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們全國15歲以上人口2061萬人他的占比現在是千分之二大概未來有什麼計畫再讓他推廣你有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6721.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6746.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
非常謝謝委員的鼓勵的確我們現在這個我們網站通報查詢網算是得到不錯的成效因為現在經過這個機制已經下架了超過24萬則的詐騙訊息但是使用人數還是太少所以現在使用的人大部分都是一些很熱心的民眾一些熱心的民眾單一的人我上次知道就是說他通報的件數就是超過2000件是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6747.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6763.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
一個人就通報超過2000件可是這些都是熱心民眾但是一般的民眾他應該也可以即使不通報他上去也應該做查詢所以我們會加強我們的宣導我們過去的宣導可能是太保守了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6764.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6789.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我是建議說你們特別去了解一下當他這個上網之後APP一年之後你研究一下可能是固定年齡層的人使用者通報的人熱心人是比較多但有些可能相關的一些年齡他可能沒有什麼人但是不同年齡層他有時候受到不同的詐騙訊息是不一樣的第二個問題我想問警政署今天張主任張主任請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6790.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6817.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我接下来谈一下我认为说这个诈骗案诈骗本身是真的是应该要好好把它找出来舍不舍平台当然也有责任所以你说对任何平台做什么样一个处理我个人是没有意见但是你要注意一件事它政策的公平性跟一致性这个是非常非常重要的所以我今天跟你讨论这个因为在小红书这个封锁的一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6818.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6839.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
事件裡面我們聽到了這個看到你們的一個新聞稿就感覺說事實上我們警政署在辦這個案子有這個急迫性然後也很緊急的去做了一個處理但是呢這個小紅書公司他已讀不回嘛也就是說我們感覺我們窮盡了一些一切方法但是他沒辦法所以最後才有直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6840.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6867.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
直接在我們這個所有的法律特別為了網路有一個專章總共16個條文其中有15個條文是想說家大業大像Meta 像Google它對社會影響一定比較大就讓你們也承認它現在詐騙金額還是最大的所以我們其中有15個條文很綿密的去規範這個對台灣社會影響最大的現在規定5%以上的就沒想到我們留了一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6868.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6886.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
留一條就是說你不夠大你就大概就唯一死刑的概念所以你到底是不是窮盡一切我想請教一下這個張主任是這是你們的通知嘛你確認一下好不好你們的通知稿裡面新聞稿特別講你們有通知小紅書應該自行針對平台內不法內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6887.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6901.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
進行有效管理影響比較小的方式你們主要內容是這個要求他你這有詐騙內容不法內容你要進行有效的管理這是你們的一個新聞稿最後是小紅書他沒有回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6903.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6918.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
對不對是包委員 這個是你們新聞稿對 我們新聞稿那就是說它的前提的原先的部分是行政院打壓中心這邊有針對這一個小紅書先通知他們要做有效管理那因為沒有回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6920.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6942.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
很好 那我就請問一下因為我們想有一些法律因為這個境外的網路所有在世界各地都有都有有時候也許阿拉伯的軟體我們目前沒有用但是未來有可能用在境外的像這種平台是非常多的我請問你的一致性因為現在網路包括一堆人在說的主要的原因主要原因就是它沒有落地 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6942.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6969.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
主要在外面論述包括政論節目包括某黨的po文第一個就是因為我們叫他他不落地那當然待會問數位部嘛因為數位部你沒有依法公告他是一定規模的所以他當然就沒有落地的一個所以你在講這個到底是你要求他管理還是因為他沒有落地就你警政署是因為他沒有落地嗎所以把他封鎖一年是不是因為他沒有落地是還是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6971.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6998.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
幫委員這個當然因為他沒有納管所以沒有因為他沒有落地所以當然沒有納管那我這邊跟委員報告其實很謝謝委員這邊的指導現在其實跟您報告其實我這邊講一個數據其實大概委員們也都知道其實現在七個平台跟小紅樹的話數據的部分其實我跟大家報告其實確確實實在詐騙的數據大家看到因為他的用戶多所以Meta用戶多相對他會招詐的人數也會比較多不是 是不是他沒有落地你剛剛那個邏輯錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7000.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7024.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為他沒有落地 所以沒有納管那個法條就規定先要把他公告5%以上或者一定規模以上他才按照第28條裡面他有一些權益義務才出來報委員他的27條規定是這樣就是說他每一個月獨立的訪客數我知道 數位部在後面數位部的公文公告就沒有小紅書所以他會到達那個規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7025.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7053.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
沒有到達規模所以跟他落不落地因為法律沒有要求他落地所以不是這個原因坊間很多亂傳也不是你們要求是因為他沒有落地第二個請問一下因為這個送達通知很重要你們尤其我們警政署檢調在辦案都很重要就是說我通知一定要通知到你不然到時候你可以講說你是當事人所以你們現在不斷說我透過陸委會透過海基會然後就 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7054.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7082.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
就通知了嗎難道你不知道海軍會陸委會已經已讀不回已經很多年了嗎我就請教你如果你的公文書在其他人手上沒有送到你的我是法人也好我是個人沒有送到我送達通知或者到我的派出所做一個寄存送達通知我們台灣的法令嘛對不對你的意思就是說你推定小紅數位回應但我就請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7083.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7091.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
海基會有沒有跟你說已經把這個公文對方已經透過海協會送給當事人簽章的公文有沒有回給你嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7094.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7117.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
報告委員因為我們是在跨部會討論的時候那有受上級這個打到中間這邊有開會所以沒有嘛所以就是說我丟出去了即使是中間人那也不管我不管可是你這樣去推定一家法人不好意思因為你收到的通知不作為其實我是覺得在法理上是有問題的再來現在明明就是網路嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7118.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7129.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那就請問一下你們辦案的那種精神有沒有透過他的網路網站或者他直接透過網路直接跟這家法人小黃叔聯絡有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7131.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7152.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為我們這個偵查面的部分就是沒有一個窗口可以去掉所以你這麼緊急的事你用42條是非常緊急對我們人民非常危害所以你一通電話也不願意打給當事人你一個網路也不願意給他的話然後你就說做這樣推論那我就第三個請教你的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7154.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7175.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
你們12月6號才你們刑事局才公布而且不要誤會兩岸共打好好的一切非常好那就請問一下你們公告一切非常好的在小紅書事件上面你們要交換情資相關的打擊犯罪不管是這個平台業者是提供犯罪的一個場所他都是你們兩岸共打的可以交換情資 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7176.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7203.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
請問一下小紅蘇這件事情在封網之前你有沒有透過兩岸共打要求他傳遞訊息或者提供情資 有還是沒有幫委員 那個跟您報告其實在各類重大案件的部分如果外勤大隊有查到嫌犯在大陸那邊都會透過兩岸共打由我們的刑事局 兩岸科不是啊 那你這個這麼好的管道你透過它因為各案 因為七項今年1到4月是756件沒有我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7204.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7232.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我想因為時間已經快到了我只是說啊未來換了一家在美國在韓國在哪裡的我覺得你們沒有道理這個信記了不管有沒有就是我送他他不回應你們這樣去推理怪怪的第二個呢也不要省力他有電話那麼緊急的事情你為什麼不打他有email |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7233.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7258.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他有Homepage你不聯絡就是我什麼能做都不做不好意思就是他不理我我覺得這很離譜那就請問一下警政署再請教一下請問一下你們未達5%的你看右下角未達5%的小紅數字排第二詐騙的件數目前你們打詐一標版警政署公布的他第二名447件那就請問一下第一名Telegram |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7260.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7279.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
2254件 那目前你們是警政組怎麼弄 危害很小他危害比較小就 我不講Meta好不好就是5%以下未公告的這一群弄在一起你們打造一標標板 Telegram你目前做什麼處理嘛 我講說處理一致性就好啦你們做什麼處理 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7280.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7300.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
包委員這個部分我們會回去會再去做檢討所以每一個部分是 你掛在那一標板掛了快大半年因為我們一標板它的數據會一直更新的每天都更新可能昨天是2248件你不講這個是很無聊我在問你們你們警政署辦這個案我講我支持平台這詐騙本來當然就有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7302.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7317.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
他應該要回應嘛我只第一個問題說你們該去做的事情 該通知的你真的有沒有把它當作一件詐騙人民受損這麼危急的事件一個E-mail也不願意傳一個電話也不願意打我就覺得有點莫名其妙Telegram |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7319.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7338.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
你們現在沒有處理嗎來你們有沒有處理Telegram第一名所以你現在就人家在問這個問題好不好你不要講公告的那四家七個平台那我就講這第一名你們意思說第一名沒有處理第一名有 有沒有通知包委員這個部分我回去再了解再跟你講我的天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7340.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7358.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
你有沒有通知你要通知他我們在案件裡面偵查裡面基本上只要是有涉及到我們都會也都會聯繫你答不出來我就懂的所以實際上email也會發你是誰啊你是誰 張主任我很尊重你你是專門負責這個詐欺方面的你是專業的你是這個人的主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7359.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7387.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你對這麼大的一個平台業者你居然答不出來我覺得真的是我覺得是這個事情就有點悲哀了但是Telegram你要通知誰是要通知他我們目前實務上面確實也都無法通知你要通知他俄羅斯的原創者還要通知他英國的公司還要通知他杜拜的開發團隊你要通知誰我告訴你根本沒有通知我的意思就是說你們怎麼在處理這個我就2,250事件是加注在我們人民的詐騙案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7389.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7396.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
你痛不痛 你不痛你不會痛嘛那看到別的覺得很痛我是希望這個處理的一致性最後一個問題請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7398.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7419.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
請教那個數位是NCC上來一下好不好其他我就不用問這個法律我就不問了最後一個問題請教一下剛剛講了這麼多到底譬如說像小紅書這類的不管是平台網路廣告業者到底屬於誰管啊我兩邊問來問去啊那個我先請問蘇部長蘇衛部部長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7421.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7444.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個是到昨天為止你們這個產業署署長特別還親自跟我確認他認為小紅書屬於UGC下面有說明就使用者生成的內容他認為類似現在NCC管理的PGC專業生成內容他認為是一樣的所以這個事情應該是NCC管你認不認同署長這樣說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7447.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7472.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
因為小紅書它有三個特性它一個是網路短影音的社群平台所以第一個是平台然後短跟影音然後影音的話是NCC來管可是社群平台實際上是我書發部在管的所以這個地方會有一些疑義會在這個地方所以說人家用影音被騙了就去找NCC沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7474.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7492.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
網路被騙找你是什麼意思這個地方我在努力在你們再協調一下好不好我會努力協調雙方說法完全不一樣該是我們要管的我們就應該管因為社群平台這個是我們在管的然後如果說不是社團社群平台形式的短影音的話像那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7493.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7521.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
像那個Netflix那些是NCC在管這個部長我覺得你們要協調好因為我要幫這個警政署講個話他們業務這個到底針對是誰到底怎麼樣去做是最精準最快不要轉說抱歉這是影音所以給找他這是我我覺得這樣不行那NCC陳處長嗎你講一下你們今天的報告你們認為這個是主管機關就是數位部嘛表明說是數位部嘛NCC只是幫忙的協力嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7522.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7539.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟委員報告其實網路內容的處理在行政院有訂了一個網際網路內容處理及分工原則裡面有相關的部會有相關分工給誰你覺得這個網路的內容裡面這個影音的部分在那個分工原則裡面有規有規範在裡面給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7542.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7559.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
目前是看他的內容是屬於哪一部分就剛剛我真的很佩服你們最後一句話大家都期待我們打造的團隊在第一線全職還搞不太清楚很多的一些問題像Telegram你怎麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7561.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7585.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
抓中間的然後去忽略到對我們危害最大的然後你新聞稿口口聲聲說這已經對我們我們的人民危害非常嚴重400多件嚴重不得了我支持 平台要負責然後200多件還沒處理我是希望說幾個單位拜託能夠待會去參考好不好我們會盡快釐清這個權責我們也很希望把這個權責劃分清楚這樣我們才好辦事好的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7588.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7613.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好這次感謝盧明哲委員質詢不過謝謝 官員請回不過我也提醒官員拜託不要已經有公告的所謂的網際網路分工原則委員都已經詢問得那麼的清楚了連回答都不能回答是還要委員回去看資料是不是如果是這樣的話那我們官員每一個上來回答都說網路上有寫自己去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7614.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7636.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這不是一個回應民意的正確態度委員在這邊代表民眾來跟官員質詢就教請官員把詳細的資料清楚明白具體回應好 接下來再請蔡啟昌委員質詢謝謝那蔡啟昌委員質詢完畢之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7644.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7668.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
請林部長來 林部長請黃執行秘書跟張主任黃執行 張主任請委員好部長好 大家好痞還沒有繃緊我不是說你啦我說團隊痞還沒有繃緊這算還加沒硬 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7671.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7698.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我想部長知道其他的各位長官本席在這裡我講過只要抒發不來我就只問詐騙謝謝主席今天特別排社群平台的這個打詐打詐是要國家隊每天把林部長罵到臭頭沒有啦也沒辦法也沒辦法啦還好啦一定要是一個團隊那本席做法很簡單小紅書 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7701.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7730.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
不管他來自哪裡啦他叫什麼小白書 小綠書都一樣只要他在社群平台是國人喜歡用國人有一定比例在使用的你們就要一致性的處理啦譬如說沒落地的你們應該直接法規規定嘛這涉及到我國家都用國家打炸隊要來處理的為什麼我們不能夠去規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7731.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7756.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我在處理打詐我在處理犯罪偵查那國家的態度在法規上我講過很多遍你需要立法院立法的我們一定支持哪一個立委敢不支持打詐哪一個政黨不支持打詐第二個你們不需要在立法院立法你們透過你們的行政手段行政命令可以處理的要有一個整體性 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7757.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7785.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
不能讓委員在這裡問你們還答得讓大家覺得好像你們自己也搞不清楚誰要處理什麼所以很簡單嘛第一個沒有落地的已讀不回的我就規定你什麼叫已讀不回你在包庇詐騙我都還要求你知道說我現在正在處理你不是但我們做一個法治國家程序就是要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7787.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7814.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
程序就是譬如說我就是透過email送達我就是透過什麼樣的方式你留的什麼位置我幫你送達你接不接我們國人涉及到法院通知他依照法院的程序把它做完了然後你去法院說不好意思我出國沒收到你覺得這個理由可以嗎也不行因為我們程序還是照這樣在走是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7815.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7828.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
市長跟委員報告一下有關於小黃素的部分因為他為什麼會這次會針對這部分因為其實比如說像剛剛委員講Telegram其實Telegram他比較接近通訊軟體他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7830.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7855.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
帳部範圍通常都是一對一的部分然後至於可以在公開的場合裡面會貼文會有不特定能看到的部分除了這四大業者之外再來的最多就是小紅書因為前面四大業者的詐騙訊息雖然多可是他已經有被列管了然後再因為再來說對於沒有被納管的部分可是我們又不能期待說那沒有納管我們不能理他 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7855.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7882.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
然後我們也確實的透過海基會發文給想要出入的不是啦 你還是誤解我的意思啦我要你的是一個標準啦譬如說我管你是社群軟體還是怎樣你在網路上有一定的社群有社群平台的意義你定義好就好嘛你把它定義好說你是網路上的社群平台或者有一定程度作為群組通訊軟體使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7884.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7906.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你自己定義嘛不會定義叫抒發部定義嘛那我這些我一律納管那我納管完之後我告訴你不管你人在美國在英國在俄羅斯在中國不管我的告知程序就是什麼你沒有按照我的告知程序我就辦你法制的基礎在於一套標準大家都適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7907.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7931.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
不會因為他是中國啦 不是因為他叫小紅書這裡面有涉及到什麼統戰啊一大堆 沒有 我就是在打詐嘛所以我的法律程序完備 我告訴你程序是什麼我管你是Telegram 我管你是什麼臉書什麼一大堆的譬如說我舉例 部長沒有落地的有多少家社群平台沒有落地 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7932.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7947.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
因為落地並不是一個精準的法律名詞所以分成兩個方面來講第一個就是他在台灣有沒有設立子公司或分公司這是一種所謂的落地另外一種是設立法律代表那依照我們現在的炸房條例其實講的兩者都沒有的有多少家 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7949.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7977.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
太多了啦這個因為全世界我現在講說我們一定程度比例它叫做社群平台是這樣的社群平台有多少家在你們認知這樣不管叫大中小是因為我們就是依照我們納管那我們現在納管有四家公司七個平台那四家公司七個平台他們在台灣都是設立法律代表那我們要求他他才會來設立法律代表那小紅書有沒有設立法律代表沒有對嘛所以我的意思就是你們要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7978.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7981.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
要件都把它說清楚嗎你們到底在規範人家什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7984.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8009.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
你列管的假設你列管叫做不管他大中小你們列管叫20家好了在20家裡面只要被你列管他一定要有什麼樣的程序譬如說他一定要有法律代表他一定要有子公司你們去把規定規定好讓所有在台灣經商不管他哪一國人來台灣要做生意要做網路的生意社群平台的生意他清楚知道我們的要件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8010.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8033.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那你不符合要件我就處理你嘛因為我在打詐你還不配合我就處理你我就在打詐裡面就相關組就把它規定好嘛是部長你現在懂我的意思嗎因為我們現在造訪條例第27條就是規定我們納管然後第29條就是規定納管以後他必須設立法律代表這在我們造訪條例裡面其實都有清楚的規定所以很簡單嘛解釋小紅書就是他沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8034.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8053.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
他被納管然後他沒有設立任何在台灣連法律代表都沒有因為他現在還達不到我們納管的標準所以目前小紅書都在我們納管所以你要清楚知道說那你要不要納管他那你不納管你的要件是什麼你的對象是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8054.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8070.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
是 跟委員說明一下因為第27條到造訪條例27條到33條都是規範說我們數位發展部要如何去納管這些網路廣告平台但是這次內政部發出的這個文它是依照第42條並不是依照第27條到33條對 那依照27條它的要件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8075.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8098.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
請副署長說明報告委員127條我們在這個113年的9月的時候有做了一個公佈就是說什麼樣叫做達到一定規模的標準它有兩個要件第一個要件就是說如果經過165這邊來通報的高風險然後同時呢對 那小紅書符不符合因為我們沒有接到這個部分的通報然後另外一個條件是那小紅書你們依照第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8100.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8102.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
小紅書內政部依照第42條第42條裡面的要件是什麼要請內政部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8111.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8134.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
報告委員我們的要件基本上就是為了要及時防治讓人民在持續去接觸這個詐欺網站所以我們要針對他的要件就是說因為他為了要防治詐欺那怕這網站持續在那邊讓很多人持續去接觸之後遭到受害那因為他本身就是規範在這一個只要是沒有納管的平台業者我們都會想方設法去用這條來去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8136.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8151.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
對那你為什麼不把明確的達到一個什麼標準就符合42條他的標準就是委員就是前面講27條他沒到達他的獨立訪客數會到達我國人口的百分之四對他未到達放到未到達的37未到達的42對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8155.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8178.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
不是不是基本上那個27條到這個有兩條路就是說我們作為那個做出處置一個是說從27條到33條就抒發部走一條路但是第41條裡面有42條裡面有規定就是說那個司法警察機關可以在緊急狀緊急案件的時候直接要求那個停止血清或限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8179.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8195.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
接取所以這是兩條路那我們剛才委員問我們這邊的我們是那個速發部走的這條路那另外一條路從42條這個就是因為內政部警政署也是屬於司法警察機關的那個一部分所以根據42條你們要怎麼通知他 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8198.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8222.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
邦委員因為他本身就是在我們台灣沒有法律代表所以我們在通知就無法通知那之前的部分在打壓中心這邊其實就是有先針對這個部分先行文去透過海基會帶轉所以我就跟你們講為什麼要這樣子為什麼不把42條弄明白為什麼不明確告訴你在符合4條我的要件就是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8223.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8241.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
你不能等詐欺的人他都一直不接受通知那你要怎麼辦繼續被罵做一個民主法治的國家就是我很清楚告訴你你來我這裡我的法律對你要求的要件是什麼清清楚楚明明白白 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8242.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8270.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以你用一個緊急一下去處理我很贊成我講過嘛打炸我是沒有在管這個的啦我就是堅持我覺得人民在打炸上受害很嚴重所以你們要去處理但是你們為什麼不把你怎麼知道未來還有一個有沒有可能小白書小綠書小藍書都有可能所以就是剛剛蘇發佈有講說這個還有其他沒有納管的很多因為他未來網路世界會增加那你為什麼不達到一個比例你就進入納管為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8272.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8282.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以比例是定在那個百分之五對 那為什麼你覺得小紅書都已經很嚴重了他雖然會打百分之三很嚴重你為什麼不把標準往下調 為什麼所以我們事實上其實是用一個概括性的就是說針對無法納管的做概括性的一個那你們就是很簡單你的無法納管的你們又自己用很緊急的狀況去處理然後緊急的狀況去處理程序是什麼又不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8302.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8324.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
你現在懂我在講什麼嗎 我的意思是說 你們家不安就是這樣嘛你們覺得很重要要處理了你們覺得5%的規範根本就遏制不了打炸那你們就應該調啊為什麼不把法律完備呢讓社會質疑呢讓很多委員同仁在這裡不斷的挑戰你們呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8326.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8352.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
本席就已經講過嘛 打詐沒有分藍綠嘛打詐也沒有分國籍 你在我中華民國在這裡你作為打詐集團的幫兇 作為他們的工具讓台灣人受害 我就是要處理你嘛是 謝委員 我們回去會做研究這個部分你們應該趕快把要件說清楚我中華民國的法令就是如此我對打詐就是深惡痛絕 這是台灣人最痛恨的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8354.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8377.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
為什麼這麼痛恨的事情你們不把他當一回事 尬給他 把他頂到清廁你要來我台灣做生意 我就是這樣要求你我讓你沒有模糊空間啊是誰會反對嗎 台灣人現在對你們要打詐嚴格大家是怎樣 社會輿論覺得不行 大家應該容忍打詐沒有嘛 大家很希望你拿出辦法來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8379.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8406.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
行政院也成立了是詐欺的 打詐的指揮中心警政署也有打詐的NCC也在打詐各部會都在打詐連本席說那個WBC的票我們去檢舉有人在網路上賣那個根本就是假的我看我們那個平台也轉到運動部請運動部查證這個平台是不是假的 是不是詐騙所以運動部也要打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8407.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8425.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以叫國家隊嘛國家在打詐都已經用國家力量在處理囉為什麼在法規的明確跟程序上還要在那邊緊急來緊急去呢我管你幾% 5% 5%沒辦法處理那些3%的我就降為3%為什麼不能降為3% |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8428.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8455.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
3%再不行2%很嚴重都發生在這2%我就降了2%然後我就告訴你來我這裡做生意只要你這裡有幾%我就告訴你要件是什麼你已讀不回你在這裡沒有法律的代理人我就直接處理你甚至我規定你一定要有代理人這個就是我們要國家要做打詐我們要有辦法要嚴厲的手段嘛為什麼不行呢為什麼不做呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8458.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8485.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
懂了吧 懂 謝委員 本時今天只要講這個 是是 家不安啦 要再創 這樣不通啦是 謝委員 台灣人民不能接受我們每天隨機殺人 人民很恐慌啊但是隨機殺人的機率跟打炸他幾乎每天可以可以接觸到歹徒耶他每天在面對打炸的時候他幾乎每天面對歹徒耶很嚴重啦 好不好是 謝謝委員 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8487.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8489.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
交通委員會現在休息10分鐘 10分鐘之後繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8520.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8547.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9101.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9117.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好感謝現在交通委員會繼續開會我們請邱洛華委員質詢謝謝好謝謝主席主席先請速發部林部長來林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9124.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9147.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
邱委員早安部長早今天的專題報告幾個類型的機關像是速發部還有NCC法務部還有行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心都提出了大量的數據都表示已經有成效了那民眾真的想問還有他們在意的並不是說你們做了多少事為什麼政府說詐騙在下降可是每天打開手機還是有民眾收片 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9147.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9174.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那也有就是還是會在平台上面看到詐騙的廣告那我今天要提問的問題全部來自你們書面報告中的內容那我們先看到根據行政院打詐指揮中心的報告今年11月詐騙的財損約59億那較去年同期下降53%那假投資還有詐騙的案件還有財損也分別下降67%然後還有71%那我肯定跨部會的努力合作嘛那也是也要請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9174.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9184.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那這些數字是不是已經有排除詐騙的手法從私訊然後轉移到封閉的社群然後還有他們換帳號然後再投放的可能性呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9184.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9206.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
是 這個部分坦白講我們並沒有很精確的數字因為在封閉性的社群裡面或者是用網路通訊軟體部長沒關係 雖然您現在說沒有掌握到數字碼那有沒有這個排除的可能性還是我們只是把詐騙從A管道轉到B管道從一個平台轉換到另外一個平台呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9207.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9227.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
是 事實上委員講到這個問題我們必須很正 必須去正視因為如同我之前常常講的是詐騙是打詐是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們現在把很多的詐騙管道把它堵住了但是詐騙集團會尋找新的詐騙的那個破洞所以這個它不斷在變形 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9227.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9242.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
它雖然不斷在變形不知道我們有沒有一個跨平台還有跨樣態尤其是跨樣態的整體風險追蹤指標而不是只是單一的同胞像蘇發部有這個打債APP還有不只是單一的同胞然後還有下架的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9244.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9266.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
整個打詐的工作事實上是跨部會在進行的主要的負責是內政部他們那邊成立的打詐指揮中心我們速發部這邊負責的就是網路上面的詐騙我們要想辦法遏止網路上的詐騙目前我們觀察到的情形的確是網路上譬如說在Facebook上 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9266.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9294.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因為速發部一直在網路上面做努力你們有建置了網路詐騙通報的查詢網也有通報Meta還有Google像Line大量涉詐的內容那也有對Meta進行裁罰我看到是1850萬那我想請教主要的一個問題那是否我們現在看到是不是都是集中在我們下架了多少就只是數字上面那有沒有一個指標它可以衡量在民眾接觸之前我們就已經成功的阻斷了這個詐騙的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9295.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9323.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
有 這個就是我們把我們的通報跟Meta已經通報了超過24萬則的詐騙訊息然後Meta它去訓練它的AI平台那它已經阻斷了針對台灣的詐騙訊息超過780萬則這個就是在 部長您一直都有提到已經下架了已經確認這些詐騙訊息是超過23萬 24萬則就表示這些內容在通報之前它已經成功地投放過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9324.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9344.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
他也成功的曝光然后民众也接收到了所以我们在讲的在要讨论的是事情这样我理解委员律师没错我们要尽量缩短这个他上架的时间所以我们一直朝这个方面努力那现在我们通报给Facebook的那个诈骗广告他们平均应该是3.5个小时 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9346.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9367.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
3.5個小時就會下架然後如果是一般的訊息非廣告的那個一般的詐騙訊息的話是平均是8個小時他們會下架我們在報告中裡面也看到說Meta現在是最大宗嘛那對Facebook他們來說廣告他們這廣告組只要他們付得起他們就可以投放廣告然後系統也會進行推送這些廣告嘛所以對他們來說這些就跟一般的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9368.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9387.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
廣告組是一樣的他們不會去分辨這是不是詐騙的廣告沒有錯吧等一下這個就是我剛才講的我們就是要求Meta跟我們合作讓他們主動下封組了780萬則這個大部分這些廣告或者訊息就是連上架都還沒有上架他們偵測到就把它封組掉了就把它封組掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9388.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9407.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
因為目前還是時時刻刻也還是有詐騙廣告在Facebook上面嘛那我也不是我不是要求主管機關要介入他們的演算法那要請教蘇發布我們是不是可以再跟平台共同合作然後提出防詐計畫的時候就要求平台說明這些詐騙的內容然後還有是否因應推薦還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9408.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9422.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
推播這些廣告而被放大因為這個是有關他們的觸及率嘛是 沒錯 那我們有沒有一個制度性的措施來降低這種被放大的風險是 就是如同我們剛才講的還有就是委員現在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9424.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9440.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這個做出來那個投影片上面上面有寫洪志去年也有官員到美國跟平台高層高通那時候就是我主要是想請蘇柏副部長說我們不是要介入他們的演算法那我們是不是可以請平台就是他們提出他們是不是可以針對這些詐騙內容來避免被放大的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9441.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9457.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
是 那個就是我們談的內容就是這樣而且我們要求各個平台出透明度報告裡面也都必須有這些制度性的作為那我們是不是請我們素產署黃副署長補充說明 謝謝是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9458.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9477.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們因為對於納管的網路廣告平台業者會要求他們要提供防炸計畫書這個防炸計畫書裡面就會有去做他的風險的一個評估那到了年底的時候在每年年底之前要出具他的透明度報告書所以他有沒有依照他的防炸計畫書去執行這個部分他必須要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9477.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9498.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
宣誓請問部長我們對Meta裁罰了1850萬那您認為他們有改善的動機嗎還是這只是一個誘因因為對於他們來說他們95%的收入都是來自於廣告剛剛也有委員提到他們的是非常可觀的那他們不改那只會他們繼續去繼續做這件事然後他們還是繼續賺錢嘛那對於這樣的裁罰設計對平台你認為來說這是對他們來說是可預期的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9506.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9530.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
的確對於像Meta這樣的國際型大公司來講我們之前給他裁罰1850萬對他們來講並不是一筆很大的錢但是最重要的就是我們這個裁罰不是為了報復也不是因為我們缺錢政府缺這1850萬最重要我們是希望他改變他的行為希望他們加入我們打炸的行列加入我們所謂的好人隊這邊而且必須做系統性的去改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9530.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9549.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那我們也要注意到如果這個裁罰對他們的行為沒有辦法改變的話那只是問題還是存在那再多的通報再多的下架那還是把問題往後延那這邊再請NCC是 有 他們應該是有改善雖然我們還是不是完全滿意但是那個Meta有在朝好的方向進展謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9553.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9573.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
委員長處長好 處長我直接就問一個問題門號是NCC管的沒有錯嘛是那NCC可以管門號也管得了門號那為什麼帳號還是滿天飛嘛因為這些帳號都是要透過門號去做註冊嘛像Facebook還是Line還是Google那NCC的報告也有指出以停話或限進將近1.6萬的門號也攔阻了5000萬的境外通話也攔阻了20萬個詐騙的網域那 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9580.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9600.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
請問這些被停化還有限制的門號有多少是造成實際詐騙之前就你們就已經意識到了還是民眾受害之後被停化之後然後你們才掌握到跟委員報告那個停化的部分我們配合台高檢的一個平台我們有把停化的資料送給台高檢然後送給一些那個平台這邊來清理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9601.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9630.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
之前在整個政府的座位裡面已經有把停話的資料送給平台這邊然後有停了斷話的那個帳號把它停掉的措施村長因為這個詐騙的流程它是要有門號然後在平台上面去辦理註冊然後再透過廣告或是私訊詐騙民眾那你會不會覺得這些門話被停話之前那詐騙的任務他們都已經達成了那你們NCC這邊還能不能就是說就是從源頭我們都說要從源頭來落實賭占你們這邊可以再做到什麼樣的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9631.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9648.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以跟委員報告就是在整個打詐的作為裡面通傳會這邊有把這個已經有人有知道這個門號拿來做詐騙的部分的這個停話之後把這個門號的資料送給平台這邊因為那個是帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9650.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9668.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
不管是金管會還是說社群平台的那把那些帳號可能還沒有我這邊因為時間的關係我這邊再請教部長一個問題我們都討論要實名制那實名制會不會變成就民眾彷彿因為看到有實名制他們反而放心了因為有經過實名制嘛是 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9669.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9685.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們不會應該不會做完全的實名制因為這個實名制會有侵犯到民眾隱私的狀況所以除了中國以外其他主要國家應該都沒有做在網路上完全實施實名制我們是希望做類實名制就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9685.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9715.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
譬如說購買一些比較敏感的產品的時候那必須做實名的認證還有就是說我們會希望透過數位憑證皮夾這種技術就是主動揭露譬如說你這個帳戶的擁有者是不是台灣人還是外國人這個地方我們希望這些平台能做而且部長因為民眾最在意的還是就是他們不會被詐騙然後也不會誤信這些詐騙然後最重要是他們畢生的積蓄不會因為詐騙然後一夕之間全沒了那再請NCC還有書發部還有相關的各部會一起共同 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9715.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9724.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
是 我們會努力 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝謝謝邱陸華委員 官員請回好 接下來再請葛盧軍委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9742.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9757.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好謝謝主席有請行政院打詐指揮中心執密王崇盛王執密請委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9758.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9774.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
紫密早這個依據行政院打詐指揮中心設置要點這個中心人員組成設置指揮官一人是由內政部的馬事員次長兼任你應該很明確知道那我們今天會議的議程也有邀請內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9777.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9797.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
好 這個是 這個好 這個待會再還我幾秒謝謝那這個還是馬次長這個馬次長也是內政部的次長但是馬次長卻選擇要缺席今天的會議我想所有質詢的委員或者在線上收看的民眾可能都會非常失望那本席在此要表達不解與深刻的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9798.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9816.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那不要浪費我們召委用心的安排一個這麼重要的角色結果在今天竟然沒有出席這一點希望幫忙轉達一下這個未來我們希望能夠跟他有更多的互動那依據這個打架中心的設置要點指揮中心的任務包括統籌五國打擊 詐欺犯罪還有協調跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9818.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9842.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
詐欺打詐的這個犯罪的這個打詐犯罪的防治的分工那想請問一下紫密您知道目前就這個詐欺犯罪防治危害條例這個第32第33條有關詐騙廣告詐騙訊息跟涉詐帳號的通報下架作業在政府部門端有哪幾個主要的管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9844.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9862.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
先跟委員報告一下其實在32條跟33條的部分其實在政府不能端最主要是第一個就是由數位部有建立的長大通報查詢網其實第二個部分其實各個業者都有跟警政署或司法機關做CPC的一個管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9863.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9880.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
好 很好事實上您提供的這個答案就明確說明了我們兩大體系一個是速發部剛剛我們都聽到很多打造通茶網或其他的機制還有一個是警政系統在中央是透過警政署的刑事警察局在地方則是各縣市政府的警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9881.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9897.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
根據我們了解甚至小到派出所都可以透過警政系統建立的平台來請平台業者封鎖疑似的帳號我們得到一些數字說今年統計到11月為止Meta 色詐的廣告 貼文粉專帳號下架達14.8萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9900.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9924.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這是我們的政府宣稱的一個打詐成效然而我們今天各部會所提供的報告大部分或幾乎全部都沒有提到被錯誤下架的民眾該如何申訴民眾又如何保障您從警政系統出來我們警察抓壞人可以隨便傷及無辜嗎是不行 不可以 很好您回答得很好在這裡我要這個肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9924.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9945.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
金管會的部分就有一頁講了人工輔助AI要減少誤判沒錯 因為我們不能傷及無辜前一陣子發生好多起經營已久的粉專去遭到政府通報網路平台業者封鎖下架累積超過18萬粉絲的專業一夕之間被封鎖了 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9946.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9963.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
裡面提到他說是刑事警察局他聯絡了以後Meta說不知道是哪一個刑事單位用了非常長的時間當然最後我們還是要肯定我們的警政單位跟我們的Meta還是協助他恢復了 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9963.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9983.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
但這還是18萬帳號的粉絲我們幾百個帳號錯殺的陳情者可能沒有這樣子的一個能力跟運氣他們只是看到一個這個刑事警察局相關的這個單位結果他可能家庭照片工作往來 營生的工具社群經營的成果這個帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9985.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10003.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
就這樣可能被一個地方警局可能是誤解或誤會按下一個鈕整個數位世界的人生被下架刪除還不能知道是哪個政府機關做的要怎麼做的那我想啊這個他們的自己的數位賬號也是他的人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10004.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10019.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
也有權利要拿回來它像這些行政機關申訴那本席爭取了很久好不容易我們理解到Meta在上週跟警政系統的通報封鎖下架的頁面做了修改本來是一律寫刑事警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10020.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10047.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
改成實際通報的警局這一點我們要謝謝刑事警察局不斷向Meta提出改善建議平台也配合但是這樣還是不夠的我們希望能夠逐步的要求整個通報下架帳號以及民眾無辜民眾的申訴流程和數據要更加透明公開請教執密您知道近三個月來警政通報系統多少民眾的申訴案件嗎當中又有多少確定是誤報而復權的案件 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10048.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10074.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
不好意思我們手上沒有這個資訊我回去了解之後跟你回報沒錯 事實上我們也確認了這些數據連警政署都沒有掌握還要進一步的去跟地方警局來調資料更何況行政院您在打炸中心更難得知為什麼會這樣問因為執迷您代表行政院來我們就希望很沉重的來告訴你這不是一個使用者個別的抱怨因為這是影響到人的數位人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10075.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10100.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
而且這除了是數位人權的侵害以外還可能影響到實體人權為什麼12月15號開始美國宣布申請五種簽證入境的人要公開社群帳號如果我要入境美國結果突然被打詐誤刪誤打誤下架我就沒辦法申請了我沒辦法申請這些簽證這甚至會侵害到憲法賦予的人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10101.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10131.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
居住 遷徙那台灣對於人權的侵害不能延伸到數位的世界來我們相信每一位通報下架社群帳號的員警都是本於全責想要打擊犯罪但是實際上能和Meta或平台業者直接溝通開會的其實只有中央的刑事警察局可是社群守則會一直變動通報下架的流程規範可能也會改變但是如果只有完整資訊的人只有刑事警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10131.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10154.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那各縣市的警局啊 派出所有權限 但沒有同步到很可能就不小心 我想他們也不是惡意的但很可能不小心就誤傷了民眾的數位帳號所以這一點 執密我想要跟您這個分享交流既然您代表打沙中心前來練習啦那我們今天的訴求也非常簡單現場也有刑事警察局的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10155.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10182.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
本席在此具體提出三點要求第一 未來的縣市警察局分局以及派出所除了每月將通報下架的資料彙整到中央以外能不能也需要將申訴案件數賦權案件數一併彙整到中央以公開透明為原則定期向外公佈相關數據以立各界瞭解真正的打詐成效不然你全部都打錯了我數字還可以再成長 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10183.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10204.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
第二點 為使基層警員能夠熟知數位人權的保障事項了解最新的運作規則能不能請刑事警察局跟META進行協調每年至少舉行一次每年一次我知道大家都非常忙每年至少一次通報下架作業原則數位人權相關流程的線上會議那也開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10205.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10225.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
各地的警局派出所員警可以來參加這第二點這個主席我爭取一點時間很快第三點刑事警察局與META的定期會議如果有涉及到通報下架的流程相關的作業能不能請刑事警察局將會議記錄的韓文地方警局還有分局還有派出所 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10225.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10251.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
讓所有基層員警隨時可以知道最新的打詐資訊以及防護的做法以上三點要求能不能請打詐中心兩個月內將後續辦理情況以書面答覆本席辦公室可以嗎我想這個打詐不是只有數字也要危害人權我們不能容忍詐騙集團但是我們也不能容忍政府帶頭去侵害到數位人權甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10251.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10274.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
實體的人權請執迷將我們的意見民眾的意見帶回去轉資給督導相關業務的林明星政委跟馬思源執行官我們跟各部會一起努力捍衛數位人權當然也絕對一起打詐 防詐可以嗎謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝葛如燊委員接下來再請賴思邦委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10289.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10312.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請速發部的林部長以及內政部的這個要打造中心的黃執密行政院行政院是執密執密內政部是主任內政部張主任兩位都請一起上來 謝謝代委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10315.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10328.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
幾位長官 我就請教很簡單的問題現在你說小紅書被禁是因為沒有落地那沒有落地的平台多了要不要要同樣標準 統統禁 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10331.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10354.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是那個因為小紅書之前是內政部就是依照罩房條例第42條然後發文給那個TWNIC請TWNIC做那個DNS RPZ的封組那我們抒發不是那個TWNIC的監管機關但是因為這個決定就是是內政部那個做的那是不是請內政部長講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10355.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10380.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
其他的要不要像Telegram沒有落地要不要請你講班委員就是剛剛有再解釋一下Telegram它是一個通訊的軟體有關委員所提的我們回去會研究就是說當然我們還是依照先後順序因為其實在統計七個合法納管的其實小紅書它大概是第八名我們其實會有這個數據所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10380.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10400.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
它根本這個詐欺的廣告排行榜很低啊你看第二頁裡面來講的話根本就派不上啊這個東西像FB啊 Google什麼的小紅書排在很後面啊這個禁的 完全大家都知道嘛大家這個不用講假話明顯的不要講假話就是意識形態嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10401.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10411.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就是就是就是賴清德政府要要對抗中共嘛 就這樣子而已啊小紅書的這個受眾 請問現在是不是已經進了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10415.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10442.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
進了沒有 已經進了沒有目前那個因為內政部發的那個文是要求封鎖一個那個網域就是domainname小紅書.com所以我們的確現在如果是直接要連上這個網站是沒辦法連上但是因為內政部給那個TWNIC的公文並沒有要求那個封鎖那個APP事實上那個也不是TWNIC的職責所以現在在APP事實上還是可以使用的所以現在的也沒有進一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10445.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10466.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
是不是這個意思我所知道的現在是座機座機有進但是手機沒有進手機還是可以看手機如果是網頁的話用網路瀏覽器去直接去聯絡還是會被封鎖對 我知道了但是基本上你有APP就沒有問題是這個意思嗎是這都說假的你要真的講這是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10468.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10482.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
對不對 這個來講的話就是意思一下意思一下這個對內心的交代而已就是要修理修理大陸的還是修理一半也不用翻牆也不用什麼VPN都不用 直接就一樣手機一樣可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10487.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10505.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
對吧 我想講對吧是依照那個造訪條例第42條這個主要是針對那個詐欺網站其實我們都知道真的詐騙的是內容啦不是平台啦你們針對這個平台就是因為數位仲介法要要護火一樣啊所以回答一下是不是這個主要就是主要就是我們都知道詐騙是內容嘛不是平台嘛你封平台什麼意義呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10516.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10525.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
跟委員報告豐平台就是什麼全世界感激豐平台的就是共產國家啊社會中介法要復活啊這個樣子啊 人都不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10528.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10528.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10551.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10563.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
禁小紅書跟詐欺一點關係都沒有啦跟詐騙一點關係也沒有啦跟意識形態有關係啦跟這個我們的政府有關係啦這個東西是這樣啦來 我再請教這個林部長這個明天就是聖誕節要不要給大家一個禮物啊低軌衛星什麼時候可以上路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10574.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10576.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
OK 低軌衛星號因為你最近開個會要多偉大 多偉大什麼空的 陸的什麼之類最近你是昨天的事情是 沒錯這裡面就提到低軌衛星的事情我們現在低軌衛星號什麼時候可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10591.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10619.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們目前已經有OneWeb的低軌衛星已經在運作了已經運作一年多了我們目前在跟Amazon Leo他們在談Amazon Leo是預計在明年他會推出我們明年會陸續進行部署我們跟他們目前就是談判相當的協商你昨天的開會的重點這一部分有沒有放了一個很重要的位置有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10621.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10627.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
很重要的比重就是談低軌衛星因為我們電然現在來講到萬一怎麼樣的話就靠低軌衛星了 難道不是嗎是 當然所以我們非常積極的跟Amazon Leo在談什麼時候我們可以期待說低軌衛星全部的普遍化 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10640.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10659.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
現在不是卡在我們這邊是因為那個Amazon Leo他現在也在陸續在發射衛星他們現在在發射了幾百個他們的目標是總共要發射7300個這個要好幾年那陸續會推出那只要那個美國基本上就是美國那邊上市可以開始使用我們台灣這邊應該也就可以同步開始使用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10660.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10679.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
現在這樣子你們社群平台沒有預警的下架網紅的頻道在上一任的黃部長都說這是不應該的現在我們辦公室跟你們反映20天沒有回顧已經反映了20天 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10681.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10682.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
社群平台無預警的下架網紅頻道 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10704.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10719.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
因為這個會發生這個事情的原因是因為現在那個像META它基本上是採用幾個方式第一個是那個他們會設他們的那個社群守則那社群守則是在美國的總部在Washington DC那邊設的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10720.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10745.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
然後接下來他會找一些人他依照這個社群守則在那個去做人工審查然後接下來他用這個人工審查的結果去訓練他的AI系統然後由AI去做那個下架那這個因為AI系統會有錯誤那一旦發生這個錯誤的時候我們會要求我們已經要求MECA做緊急改善主席站起來你要去處理這個事嗎有有我們已經在處理了謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝關於請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10749.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10773.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好再來請王洪威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請速發部林部長還有行政院我們的王執密以及法務部的張司長法務部張司長麻煩你 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10778.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10803.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
王委員你好我想請問一下就說自從這個太子集團事件發生之後我們認為其實在台灣也變成一個全世界詐騙供應鏈之一真的是覺得有夠丟臉那我想請問你們知不知道最近金融時報有一個紀錄片也是在談詐騙的紀錄片這裡面三度提到台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10804.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10808.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
部長知道嗎抱歉我還沒看過這個影片還沒看過好請問一下我們的執迷看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10811.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10834.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
也還沒看過我們請問一下我們的法務部張師長看過嗎都沒有看過你看問題來了我要告訴你們其實趕快回去看這個紀錄片裡面三度提到台灣是詐騙相關的據點這裡面來看下一頁他提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10835.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10848.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
台灣有涉及硬體轉印站的一些設備的寄送這個是挪威警方在調查他們自己本身內部他們本來是以為是間諜案後來發現是一個詐騙案說這個設備從台灣寄往文萊測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10855.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10871.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
另外也提到詐騙套件的活躍買家與記據點他講到除了中國南方沿海、上海、福建等地台灣也是密集的購買與操作據點另外也提到伺服器的架設所在地 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10872.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10894.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這是聯合國的毒品和犯罪問題辦公室指出顯示很多線上詐欺的伺服器高度流動性都可能設在台灣然後提到台灣是網路基礎建設的中繼站為什麼要提到金融時報 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10895.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10906.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
事實上早在今年初今年初我也曾經在質詢質詢提到就是聯合國的毒品 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10907.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10925.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
和犯罪問題辦公室當時他們就提出報告當時我也問了法務部長當時法務部長說他也不知道聯合國的報告後來調查局竟然還對外說這個調查報告是偏頗的 可信度低 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10926.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10953.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
結果沒有幾個月大概三個月不到吧就發生了太子集團事件就發生太子集團事件有夠丟臉的聯合國的報告在今年4月的時候提到台灣裡面非常的仔細結果我們法務部沒有看到沒有看到我們經過質詢後來調查局竟然說這個報告的可信度很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10954.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10971.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
結果太子集團事件就發生了所以現在金融時報的詐騙紀錄片又三度提到了台灣我希望你們趕快去了解不要讓所謂的世界看到台灣看到台灣的詐騙有夠丟臉另外請教一下法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10973.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10992.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
這個我們都知道在東南亞 特別是柬埔寨有詐騙園區那麼今年 就最近喔最近我們的台灣日本關係協會的副秘書長林玉慧特別提到了台灣人現在對東南亞的詐騙提高警覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10993.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11010.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
但是他說日本最近的案件也在直線上升他說甚至台灣人在日本涉及詐騙案件的人數比去年還暴增了十倍之多那我想請問一下這個部分我們法務部有了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11012.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11032.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
跟委員報告那相關的訊息本部的所屬機關都會有所掌握那也會去進一步的了解那防免相關的這個犯罪情勢的發生所以看起來你們又在狀況外這個是我們台灣日本關係協會的副秘書長他所提出來的警訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11033.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11055.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
他說因為現在對東南亞我們國人有警覺但是他也提醒日本的部分詐騙也越來越多所以他希望我們也要有一些警覺所以請拜託我們不希望再有這種詐騙園區然後我們國人不知道而上當另外我要特別講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11056.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11077.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
就是其實偉茂這個帳號我們過去在臉書包含我個人還有我們這個立法院內很多的委員通通都有被這個假帳號還有很多的名人最近非常多的我得到很多的回報是偉茂像我自己本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11077.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11095.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
就在LINE上面被偽冒帳號那很多的民眾搞不清楚以為在跟我對話我最近我的這個辦公就是我們地方的主任還來問我說他說委員你下午有沒有跟哪一個人這樣子什麼一共交談了半個多小時我說什麼交談半個多小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11097.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11120.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
因為那個是我們的支持者他看到之後他好高興喔他說今天我跟你們委員在這個LINE就講了半個多小時他想說怎麼可能委員怎麼會跟你講半個多小時果然是假帳號我們立刻去報案那最近又來了因為現在AI連語音影像都可以那變成呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11122.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11140.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
語音通話 我跟他語音通話他覺得這聲音就是我的所以這個部分我們有沒有什麼其實我們抒發部跟LINE都有些合作就是保護一些公眾人物那委員您當然是公眾人物那請趕快跟我們聯絡我們會去找那個LINE我已經報案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11141.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11162.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
除了那個報案那是內政部警政系統那我們訴發部這邊的話就是包含就是委員您的那個圖像他們用AI的方式去檢查如果說有人看起來是用委員您的名字又用您的那個影像去開帳號的話他們會有一些方式去攔阻的好那這樣子其實我相信絕對不會是只有我一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11163.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11192.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
絕對不會只有我一個人那當然現在因為通常我們的做法一定是先去跟警方報案所以如果書發部也有什麼窗口嗎那如果有人也類似像這種不管是帳號或者是有假冒AI的語音通話這個你們也有有 我們都有我們馬上跟委員的辦公室聯絡沒有 我希望你們能夠公開你懂我意思嗎不是只有我因為這個是針對公眾人物因為那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11193.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11211.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個是一定是從公眾人物那你們趕快告訴因為公眾人物太多了太多絕對不是只有只有這個政治人物太多的公眾人物都非常有可能你們要趕快讓大家知道不除了你報警之外也要跟我們庶發部來做聯絡好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王宏威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11216.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11245.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
大家不要誤信這個莫名的LINE的訊息 沒有錯好 謝謝來 再來請廖先祥委員質詢謝謝主席 那麻煩邀請我們速發部林部長 林部長請寶藏指揮中心王執密 王執密請 還有內政部這個詐欺長官 張主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11247.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11271.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
來 張主任請廖偉文你好大家午安喔 抱歉喔我想說剛剛原本想說要不要直接消失一下大家就下課了開玩笑那這個跟大家請教一下這兩三個禮拜很多國際的新聞就是東南亞的新聞就可能泰國 緬甸或柬埔寨一下是自己的軍隊去打這個KK園區一下是這個F16去轟炸園區對不對我想確認一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11274.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11303.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那最近的相關的詐騙的一些各項統計數據有沒有因此變少包括你們網域的封鎖就是一些詐騙的網址或者是實際上有報案的案件是不曉得各單位依照我們速發部我們速發部這邊主要是針對網路上的一些那個偽冒訊息的防堵依照我們的統計那個事實上過去這一年多來都穩定在下降跟一年多比起來最近炸完之後有沒有再更明顯的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11304.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11316.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個詐玩以後可能我不知道有沒有最新的一部分是您的網域的嘛與網域的封鎖的提報譬如我們之前那個APP啊不是也都有民眾在上傳一些詐騙網站的可疑網址嗎這些數量有沒有因此而減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11318.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11343.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個數量 坦白講就是說增加跟減少不一定就代表詐騙的數量減少因為我們一直在推廣網站通報查詢網我們希望更多人使用 更多人詐近期發生這麼多事件有沒有因此減少我個人的感覺好像是有減少但是我那個就是實際統計可能手上沒有資料好 那沒關係 那其他單位還是要補充 你要幫書發部補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11349.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11359.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們這邊的話是有那個針對那個網址的這個停職解析的部分那今年到目前為止的11月底的話是有停職解析的4萬5千件的這個網址 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11361.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11385.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好 沒關係 我是想說了解最近這個詐騙園區這源頭啦 現在了解一下大家都以為在東南亞那實際上詐完之後有沒有減少我覺得這個要先釐清一下非常謝謝委員這個部分其實我們也一直在思考到底哪一個策略奏效那實際上跟委員報告其實事實上詐欺的數據不管是在發生受理報案書跟財損其實從今年的6月很明顯的逐步的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11385.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11414.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那尤其他下架的最高峰大概就是在我們是希望持續會再下下去那11月像我們每天關注大概就1萬2萬如果看到3萬我們就好緊張那實際上就像委員您所指示的就是說最近減碳這個打仗的問題他大概也是最近大概這一個月到半個月之間但是實際上我們在看其實12月有點怕怕的因為12月感覺上好像有一點點有時候到3萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11415.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11431.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
然後就是感覺上每天看那個數據不如11月來的安心所以實際上就是委員你所講說這個他們戰爭這個部分到底是不是有影響其實我們目前還在觀察當中還沒有很明確的指標好 那我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11433.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11453.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
達拉中心呢有要補充了嗎還是你手上沒有數據跟委員報告就是其實詐欺在醫學上其實它是一種慢性病它不會因為一種藥方就會好了這樣其實就是其他就是它就漸漸好是因為它有任何的相關措施作為然後以那個最近東南亞的部分因為其實整個詐騙雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11454.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11469.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
很多大宗司放在柬埔寨可是柬埔寨也很大然後現在被打擊的是跟泰國交界的部分所以說它是占其中的一部分當然我們是希望因為那邊打仗剩下的人會怕然後趕快跑這樣來減少這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11471.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11485.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
不過假如以詐欺而言你假如是機房被抄的話他不會立即下降他會先升再降原因是為什麼因為他可能詐騙是長期的在騙你一個月兩個月突然他被炸掉他就我怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11486.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11510.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
很多人就本來有在定期聯繫的總算沒有聯繫的我擔心一下發生什麼事趕快去報案我就覺得我們可以利用這個指標來確認一下因為我們過去都說這個犯罪的中心或者他們一個集團化都是在東南亞這些緬甸或者是柬埔寨那實際上如果說發生戰爭或者一些軍事的行動在攻擊的話那一定是會影響到他們的一個作業如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11511.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11533.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
照常理來判斷有供給的話那相關的後續可能或許會有這個延遲性的一個時間但是一定會對數量或是相關的一些訊息的散布一定會有影響如果沒有影響的話就代表說我們過去的一些判斷那是不是會有一些失準我們以為我們的大宗的詐騙來源都是來自那一邊但實際上被炒完了之後如果說沒有變的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11534.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11558.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那怎麼會這樣 一定是我們當初的判斷可能有一些問題後續可以以這個指標來做一下我們一些源頭的部分的一些釐清跟我們怎麼來做防範以上那另外要再請教一下我們蘇發部長 林部長剛剛有特別提到這個小紅書有提到說現在TWNIC有封鎖網域那APP的部分沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11559.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11576.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我想確認一下APP的部分沒有就我今天也先不跟你們討論說這個意識形態還怎麼樣啦這個我指控你們也不會你們也不會承認嘛我們就是討論客觀的事我們現在封小紅書的話網域封鎖那APP沒有進是因為進不了還是沒有去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11578.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11599.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
第一個就是因為我們疏發部是那個事實上並不是那個決策機關那因為這件事情是對不起那個內政部依照炸防條例第42條然後發文給TWNIC請TWNIC用那個DNSRPC那就你的專業如果說要進APP的話做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11600.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11613.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
坦白講因為Internet的特性就是說完全禁止那個封組是很難的即使在中國中國他有網路長程但是中國人也是會利用但至少形式上制度上面的一個封做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11615.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11630.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
制度上的封因為技術上還是制度上技術上現在就是一個普遍的譬如說你說TWIC你禁但是我是還是可以用跳板那個是另外的一個手段嘛對不對當然當然我們不做另外的手段的正常操作使用下面禁的禁的了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11631.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11653.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
跟委員補充說明喔因為APP的方式的話它其實是一個以多網域多服務的架構所以它一個APP可能會連到好幾個網域另外一個的話就是說它的多服務架構它可能有一些有一些服務是更寄生在這個CDN裡面喔所以這個的話就變成說你很難如果你要全封的話你可能不能精準打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11654.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11680.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以這個在技術上有它的一個限制就是說你擋一個網域的話可能APP還是可以work那但是你全部擋掉的話你可能會變成會傷及無殺那我再確認一下內政部有辦法或者是打到指揮中心有辦法說明一下為什麼當初只有發給TWN IC而沒有針對APP的部分去執行是做不到技術上面還是說我們沒有要做這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11680.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11709.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
因為在造房條例的第42條部分只有情資解析意圖他沒有辦法請App Store或者Google Play也把那個就禁止下架所以說這段時間大家可能以為是不是民意的反彈讓我們的政府是不是意識到我們民意就是採納民意的方式不要去禁小紅書但實際上我們政府沒有辦法把小紅書的APP禁掉並不是因為我們你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11711.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11713.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
政府不想進而是技術上做不到是這樣子是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11716.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11743.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
就是技術上是有困境所以是技術上做不到所以說之前院長說什麼一年的一個時間對不對那一年的時間到了之後你們應該是做不到所以是一個虛張真實我們是希望藉由這次來再跟小紅書請他再要提供相關的聯繫管道至少再停止再下架跟那就是院長講的這一年假設院長講的這一年的時間到了那他們一樣沒有落地的話那能有什麼作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11747.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11772.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
現行的機制好像辦不到嘛對不對好不好那我當然啦我個人是當然是非常不贊成這個封小紅書的這一項決策啦畢竟你知道我們要跟你爭你的認同但是你也知道我們普遍社會上面大家的一個認知都是認為說就是一個意識形態的一個操作啦那也希望說當然你們都是專業的幕僚單位啦那也希望說你們未來都能夠站在 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11773.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11795.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
民眾的立場來提供一些這個中央政府的一些決策的一些建議那未來如果說這個小紅書的問題這個看起來好像就是這樣啦你未來不可能再多進了嗎好對我只要確認一下這件事情而已所以說大部分的使用者應該是可以放心啦我應該可以這樣子理解啦以上好謝謝所以我也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11797.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11817.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好 謝謝廖線上委員來 官員請回不過剛剛官員答詢裡面其中來 官員請回其中有提到就是我們12月份的詐騙金額本席剛剛一天一天的去把它給加總起來截至內政部打在儀表板的數據到12月22號12月已經被詐騙了49.29億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11824.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11831.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
49.29億元10月是60億被詐騙11月是59.9億被詐騙截至到12月22號12月已經被詐了49.29億元還有9天的時間12月才會過完換言之現在看起來會突破12月被詐騙的金額會突破10月跟11月這是客觀的事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11849.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11875.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以詐騙還是嚴峻我想用客觀的數據講出來還是希望我們所有出席的行政官員們都要謹記打詐這條路真的我們永遠不可能鬆懈也永遠不能鬆懈好 再來請張雅玲委員發言張雅玲 張雅玲委員不在鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請徐富奎委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11885.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11887.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們林部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11893.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11918.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
學委員午安部長午安部長我想數位部在近年對於這個數位治理的這個制度建構我想我們給予高度的肯定謝謝那所以今天在這個報告當然是有提到這個社群平台防詐這個議題但我想我們最近推動這個SEMI的E187這個半導體的一個設備治安的認證的一個制度我想這個呈現一個很重要的一個核心的一個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11919.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11941.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那未來我們不是要求一個口號式的一個資安的一個宣示而是應該把高度複雜的一個供應鏈的風險轉化成一個有標準有驗證有責任歸屬的一個制度設計讓我們所有的業者應該知道做到哪裡才算合格那我想這個東西也是攸關到我們政府治理要求的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11942.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11965.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
具體可落實跟可被驗證的一個目標那我想數位部在這個防詐政策上面當然我們要從法律面科技面還有商業面的面向來處理我想部長針對這樣的一個治理計畫未來有沒有可能去做一個複製然後把這樣的一個可擴散的一個政策方式能夠往回推動到我們各個不一樣的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11966.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11992.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
是 跟委員報告首先要感謝委員的支持那的確Semi-1187這件事情對我們來講意義非常大不但能保護我們台灣產業鏈尤其是這個IC產業鏈的資安而且它能帶來很大的商機所以我們當然是希望能複製這種方式在別的領域製造類似的狀況這個是就是那個Win Win Win大家都是獲利了 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11993.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12013.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
在這個CMI187有一個很特別的地方就是在於說它本身是一個很大的商業利益因為現在世界各國都會要求我們的台灣台積電為首的半導體產業去他們那邊設廠是他們來求我們等於說他們來拜託我們那我們就要求他們說你如果想要加入台積電的供應鏈的話你必須通過這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12015.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12037.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
然後再通過這個標準的話我們這個台積電才可以相信說它跟你合作使用你的機台設備不會有木馬藏在你的機台設備裡面是 所以這個是很好的但是要馬上再複製那個我們可能還要再努力一下因為在其他領域我們並沒有像一個台積電這麼大的一家公司作為我們等於說商業上的一個後盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12038.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12066.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
不過部長當然台積電是我們的護國神山但是我覺得未來在我們整個這個科技發展的領域裡面我想我們也期待更多的這個台積電的護國神山出現所以我想未來怎麼樣針對這樣一個制度治理的核心原則針對我們未來包含AI也好 聲威也好甚至治安的一個政策上面這些屬於高風險的一個數位議題的部分能不能來做一個比較全方位的一個推動的處理的一個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12067.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12087.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
是 我们会朝这个方向发展那我们就希望说第一个我们要制定各种规范然后另外一个这件事情很大的意义在于说善用民间的力量因为我们知道那个Semi-187这个标准会带来三种商机第一个是说认证本身就是一种生意再来就是说辅导 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12088.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12116.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
廠商通過認證又是一種生意再來是說提供資安的軟硬體設備去通過驗證又是一種生意所以台灣的資安產業對於這個CMI187非常的期待那同樣我們在打炸的作為上面我們也希望說我們讓這個打炸這個本身就變成一種生意就是你打炸還可以賺到錢那當然除了說服務政府以外還有服務民眾這個我們都希望說形成一個健康的產業生態系 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12118.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12122.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我想回歸到今天的我們的專題報告那當然我想我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12124.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12151.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
各部會的努力之下當然我們期待這個社群平台打詐的一個成效能夠持續的努力讓我們的鄉親不被受到影響但是我們現在從數據上來看這個光是高風險的金融投資詐騙廣告從113年單週最高高達7萬7千多件到114年11月當然平均已經降到了不到3千件但是我看到其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12152.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12172.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
Meta他們也努力在台灣移除了高達780萬則的一個詐騙廣告是我跟你講這個整個從官方也好從這個商業面也好我想我們應該是做這樣的一個最大的努力但是因為現在我們看到從網路詐騙的一個通報查詢網也累積通報了超過50萬則的可疑的一個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12173.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12201.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那這些數字都可以證明當然我們政府介入之後平台已經動起來但是目前這樣的成效到底是屬於一個專案型的或是一個行政的一個推動成效還是被納入了一個只是一個可追蹤或者是一個比較型的一個指標我想我們不是看到一個數字的這個下降我們應該是期待說我們未來怎麼樣去隨時檢討修正我們一個未來一個治理的一個方向部長有沒有做一個這樣的一個檢討規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12202.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12228.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
是 首先我們在應該這樣講我們現在抒發部在打詐我們是從三個方面著手第一個是法律面再來是科技面然後再來是商業面在法律面上面我們非常感謝立法院在去年通過了詐房條例那詐房條例通過以後我們就可以要求這些網路平台他第一個要做到廣告實名制然後再來是我們通知他有些詐騙訊息他必須在24小時之內下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12229.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12250.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
在科技面的话我们就是利用网站通报查询网以及DNSRPG等等技术我们就是利用民间的力量由民间来通报我们也用AI的方式来通报来巡查找到所有可疑的讯息然后用自动分案让当事人譬如说仿冒谢金河的讯息就找谢金河来确认等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12251.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12270.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
然后再来就是商业面商业面的话我们就是去跟这些大型平台去跟他们劝说说你们不能做一个旁观者你们必须加入我们打炸的行列这在商业上对你们的商业商誉是有帮助的你们商誉好的话你们才有更长久的生意所以这个是我们的整体的策略以上报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12271.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12295.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
老實講這個詐騙手法日新月異沒錯上有政策 下有對策所以我們現行的這個治理工具到底能不能去適應每一樣的一個狀況你們推出一個政策還沒有實施之前人家就已經玩新的花樣了是 沒錯尤其我們在政科我們很多的長輩也好 年輕人也好真的很容易受到這些網路的一個詐騙的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12296.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12320.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那所以我想尤其現在我們看到包含透過這個假贈品假合作釣魚連結甚至投資的一些管道讓我們的民眾一步步掉入陷阱我想我們也是期待這樣的一個公開廣告型的一個詐騙的處理手段我想我們應該要加強一個質疑的力道那針對這樣廣告型跟私訊型的詐騙我想我們有掌握相關的資訊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12323.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12348.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
首先就是說委員講的完全沒錯因為打詐我常常講就是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們好人我們政府一直把各種詐騙管道給堵住了但是這個詐騙集團會變招他會找新的詐騙的方式他一直在變所以我們一定要加快我們的反應速度另外一個委員剛剛也提到就是說應該是通訊像說LINE這樣的通訊軟體在LINE的這個通訊軟體因為我們沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12352.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12373.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
沒辦法去看個人通訊的內容因為我們是自由民主法治的國家但是我們會要求就是說一旦民眾開始報案我們會要求LINE盡快讓我們可以找到對方的帳號到底是誰之前在一年多以前我們去內政部警政署去要求去跟LINE調資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12375.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12399.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
平均要八個禮拜那現在我們已經縮短到三天那我們的期待是說以後呢縮短到一天以下這樣我們可以很快的把壞人抓到部長這個很重要啦是不能因為這樣子用三天的時間這三天不知道還要六天對啊對啊這個沒錯那我們也看到這個馬來西亞有跟進澳洲這個社群禁令研議把平臺導入身份驗證我們有沒有可能研究這個方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12399.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12427.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們現在有在跟那個平台正在討論就是我們現在蘇發布有一個數位憑證皮夾有個數位憑證皮夾的技術那事實上我們可以利用這種方式來那個驗證使用者的身分那這當然就是說因為我們台灣這個是一個非常自由民主的國家那可能我們首先就是要凝聚那個大家的共識如果說大家有共識認為說可以做實名制或類實名制的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12427.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12453.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
或者是在某一做某些行為的時候必須有那個實名制譬如說我購買一些比較危險的物品或者是這個我們會利用數位憑證提交的機制來設法來驗證使用者的身份我想就最近這個北捷這個事情我想能夠做這樣怎麼樣嚴密的一個針對一個實名登記登錄的部分能夠做一個查證那我想這個打仗跟這個防堵這個暴力行為絕對不是只有公務部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12454.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12469.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
是沒錯 平台業者也要有責任是 不能只賺幾年了我們應該要有這個蘿蔔跟棍子的這個力道一起去處理這件事情 是好不好 我們會嚴格要求非常謝謝委員的指導 謝謝好 謝謝學富魁委員來 官員請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12471.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12500.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
接下來請沈博洋 沈博洋 沈博洋委員 指詢沈博洋委員不在王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在林德福 林德福 林德福委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在陳冠廷 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在林月琴 林月琴 林月琴委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12500.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12517.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在劉浩 劉浩 劉浩委員不在林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12519.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12540.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員尤浩 林俊憲 林德福徐欣盈 林楚英 王美惠委員所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12541.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12556.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
請數位發展部及相關機關競速以書面答覆今天是聖誕夜 夜誕夜 平安夜祝福全國國人以及我們交通委員會所有的同仁大家都平安健康本日會議結束 散會 |