| IVOD_ID |
17147 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17147 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-26,19,15-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[2] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[2] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-24T08:36:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-24T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:23:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856f793b294c435070ac003cba48680cf83fa04411479d882a566ab4756c7faf075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查
一、委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員王美惠等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
六、委員劉建國等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
七、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。
八、委員盧縣一等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第三條條文修正草案」案。
九、委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十一、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十三、委員馬文君等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十四、委員徐富癸等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十五、委員游顥等26人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條、第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
十七、委員邱鎮軍等17人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
十八、委員陳超明等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
十九、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
二十、委員何欣純等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
二十一、委員郭國文等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
二十二、委員陳瑩等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。
二十三、委員陳秀寳等23人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
二十四、委員邱若華等16人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案」案。
二十五、委員陳俊宇等35人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
二十六、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案...等39案
(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)。
【第三十八案，如經院會復議，則不予審查；第三十九案，如未經院會交付本聯席會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【僅詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:35 - 15:00:00 |
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報告聯席會 出席為人數23位已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們會議正式開始 |
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好 現在開會 那本會議成為審查老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條及第三條 第四條條文修正草案 計有39案那現在來介紹在場委員及列席官員我們第一位是陳昭之陳委員好 第二位是王振旭王委員我們出席的官員是農業部部長陳俊濟 |
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農民輔導師代理師長陳怡任法治處處長吳福隆還有衛福部社會保險師參事代理師長張玉璇還有長期照顧師檢任計政白珊琪社會救助局設公司科長陳一魯 |
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1510.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
原住民族委員會社會福利處副處長洪玲謝謝勞動部勞工保險局局長白立珍謝謝勞工保險局榮民保險組組長溫秀珠謝謝行政院組計總處公務預算處專門委員邱碧珠謝謝還有內政部地政司副市長陳信利謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1514.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1537.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
財政部專門委員林保全檢任分析師葉坤明 謝謝法務部專門委員邱立芬 謝謝好 我們現在來請這個提案委員說明提案料子那每位委員兩分鐘第一位委員是張家俊 張委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1551.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1573.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主席 各位同仁 大家早修正老農福利津貼條例是還給農民應有的權益與正義本次修正正是為了回應過去被低估的通膨現實也是兌現政府照顧農民承諾的必要行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1574.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1597.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那第一 現行老農津貼的調整機制已明顯跟不上物價上漲的速度近年來受到通膨影響 主計處所統計的必要生活支出大幅上升光是民國108年到112年年間重要的民生物資CPI累積漲幅就已經高達13% |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1599.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1622.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
津貼調整幅度遠遠無法緩解老農承受的生活壓力每四年才檢討一次的津貼顯然是緩不及急第二本席主張提高津貼金額落實對老農的基本保障去年3月本席所提的修法就是本屆第一個主張將老農津貼調整式 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1625.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1640.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
調整至每個月一萬兩千元目的就是把過去多年未漲未能反應物價上漲的部分還給農民真正落實最基本的生活保障第三調整過時的排付條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1643.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1654.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
避免錯殺需要被照顧的老農 現行的排付條款自民國100年訂定後 十多年來未隨物價房價變動調整 期間土地與房屋等不動產指數大幅上漲 既無法真實反映實際財富狀況 也讓過時的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1666.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1690.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
製造了新的制度性不公最後老農津貼已經實施了近30年不應該再以暫行之名照顧農民老年農民福利津貼自民國84年實行至今早已成為我國重要且穩定的社會福利制度條例名稱不應該繼續使用暫行兩字 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1691.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1708.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
制度的定位必須回歸正軌各位同仁本席要再次強調修正老農制度老農津貼制度修正老農津貼制度是補救一個已經不符合現況的制度立法院有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1710.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1724.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
立法院有責任確保長年為台灣農業付出一生的長輩那在物價高漲的今天能不能保有最基本也最有尊嚴的生活敬請各位同仁支持本案 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請徐議政委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1744.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1760.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席還有各位官員各位同仁大家早今天其實站在這裡心情是非常沉重的因為我們常說農為國之本台灣有今天這樣經濟發展事實上靠的就是農業但是目前我們給的老農今天一個月是新台幣8110元各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1763.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1776.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
8,110元現在能做些什麼現在隨便一個便當都要100多塊而8,110元平均下來一天只有270塊可以用所以可以說是農民簡直在吃土這不是進行式而是現在的一個慘況 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1779.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1804.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我們回頭看看這些數據這幾年來物價像做火箭一樣衝上去但是我們的老農今天卻像是釘在地板上動彈不得依據衛福部公告的標準今年的台灣的最低生活費是15515元可是我們給的老農今天竟然只是最低生活費的一半這不僅是不夠更是羞辱我們辛苦一輩子的老農民 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1804.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1818.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
雖然我們這份提案的原始版本我本來是先希望調到一萬元但是看到這陣子物價失控的程度以及國民黨團大家共同的決心所以我們現在要告訴行政部門為了讓農民能夠活得有尊嚴不能在貧窮線下掙扎我們主張應該要一步到位直接比照最低生活費的標準將老農津貼調漲到每個月一萬五千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1831.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1858.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這不是漫天喊價而是讓老農能夠活下去的救命錢除了金額太少現在的制度更是僵化到令人憤怒因為老農今天每四年才能檢討一次而現在的物價指數每天都在飆漲所以本席也主張這次修法要把調整週期縮短改為每兩年就要檢討一次而且如果消費者物價指數年成長率超過3%就要立刻啟動調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1860.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1874.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
還有一個問題就是排富條款目前我們的排富門檻已經整整超過14年沒有調整了那這些老農住在祖傳的房子裡雖然帳面的價值變高但他們的口袋根本沒有錢結果變成假富人真貧窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1875.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1891.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以本席也主張要放寬排付條款將土地房屋價值的門檻調高把那些無辜被排除在外的乾坤狼重新納入照顧的範圍請大家一起來照顧我們這些辛苦的勞農 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳哲輝委員代表台灣民眾黨團來做提案說明沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1905.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1908.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 接下來請呂毅霖委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1916.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1943.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝主席本席是針對老農福利津貼暫行條例的第4條修正草案本席跟其他的委員17人考量通貨膨脹 物價上揚對於退休農民的生活已經形成了巨大的壓力然而老農津貼每4年才會參照消費者物價指數的成長率進行調整現行的調整週期恐怕難以反映到當前的經濟現實 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1945.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1958.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以在第四條的部分為了反映實際的社會經濟的情勢應該改為兩年檢討一次以利於維繫農民的福利同時這個津貼的基數也應該從現行的8,110元調整為1萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1963.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1984.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
而且現在的物價指數也一直都通貨膨脹的提高所以也應該要照成長率來提高所以才這樣子的話才可以落實了保障農民老年退休的生活的初衷謝謝好接下來請丁學忠委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1996.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2020.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
感謝教育我們各位農民 大家好修正老年農民獲利 緊貼條例生害農民應該有的款領跟正義 均促修正這是為了飛營貴企向低估的膨脹現實也是兌現政府照顧農民承諾的 必要行動第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2020.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2023.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
現行勞動緊張調整的機制已經明顯對越到有上漲的速度今天受到通訪影響租界主所通過的紀律、心話、技術大幅上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2041.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2046.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好像民國10多年 中央那邊政府給市區的內地政府就已經大概13%經濟調整的程度不夠就解放我們勞動生死的生活的壓力我們4年才撿到這塊經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2066.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2075.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
顯現固執環及自治在軍事所主張的體育經濟經驗落實對勞動機構的構想古年三月軍事提出的手法是更改第一項主張勞動經濟條件更規劃一萬兩千塊的體額 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2090.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2104.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我就是要把過去兩年未邀的婚姻舞伎上場的過分先害給農民,真的就是最之前的身外過程第三,調整過去的開戶門檻,撤戶撤殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2111.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2117.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
需要供照顧的牢籠現行的開戶條款主任過三年訂好寫了後十幾年來無所謂就無法溝通廣給建棟調遷期間土地甲鋼瓦頂骨董山基層大幅上漲我真的歡迎到世界這個財富的總統也給貴士的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2138.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2149.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
婚禮造成到我們製造性的無功夫所以老農今天是已經三十年不應該以戰行之名照顧我們這個農民老農農民 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2154.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2172.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
福利今天 自民國94年實施到這陣子 早已經成為我們中華民國重要和穩定社會福利的這個制度到了明年 國民改革 繼續使用暫行兩億的這個制度定位繼續要來回歸正軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2177.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2179.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
各位總理 軍事決戰所叫做修正牢籠緊貼的制度是構造一個已經和復合成功的制度你看他有幾年來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2191.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2198.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們這個市長為臺灣農業付出一生的長輩當這個有給高漲的今天日能夠是最極限也最有尊嚴的這個生活拜託我們各位總理來支持我們感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2213.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2227.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 謝謝丁委員的提案說明那麼等一下請部長來做這個說明那在部長說明的中間如果有提案委員有到現場還是會給各位提案委員來做說明但是如果見到選黨我們就這個提案說明就結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2229.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2257.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
在這邊委員會做這樣的宣告那我想跟各位同仁報告今天針對這個老農老年農民的福利津貼戰刑條例來提出相關的行動草案我們把它排審那最主要核心目標只有一個就是讓老農的津貼可以跟得上這個物價讓國家照顧要跟得上這個時代政府法律從84年時到現在走了快30年戰刑這兩個字真的是非常不合時宜那我們主張三處確立國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2258.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2286.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對農民永久的這樣的一個責任所以這次的修法我們也設出了這三支建那來解決老農的困境第一支建就是整個津貼的金額務必要提高物價表大家都非常清楚所以應該也做快速來做因應跟調整那這個部分也跟行政單位有做相關的這樣的溝通然後做很多這樣的一個調查所以提高津貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2287.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2312.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
也要顧及到這個行政單位的財政狀況那所以我們諸多委員在經過與行政單位的整個的衡量農民福利與各方面的財政狀況進行試算了以後我們主張應該就是要調高來給予給老人最這個直接的經濟上的一個支持那第二支鍵就是加速現在的法律是4年來檢討一次物價調整這個進貼這個太慢了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2315.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2341.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
等到調整時農民的荷包早就已經縮水所以我們在提案就是改為每年來做調整物價漲今天就要跟著漲反應要及時我想這部分還是請我們諸多委員來共同支持那最後就是公道很多老農在鄉下房子地皮沒賣手上也沒有什麼現金但是因為政府調漲公告地價導致他們站面資產增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2342.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2355.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
結果就被排污條款刷掉 領不到津貼我想這非常的冤枉所以我們這次也依照房價指數將排污門檻從500萬提高到1225萬那唯一飛龍社的自住房屋門檻也從400萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2357.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2384.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那再度來調高希望可以保障真正需要幫助到的老農那我想這個部分簡單做這樣的一個說明最主要還是農民年輕的時候顧國家也顧大家肚子那他年老的時候國家也要顧他過個好日子所以也請各位委員不分黨派大家共同支持來讓這樣的一個法律可以修正到保障更多的我們的農民那現在我再請陳廷輝委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2395.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2421.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝昭偉我想我們對於老農津貼的一個暫行條例其實我們都希望說他可以把它變成是一個正式的條例而不是暫行條例那第二個部分是我們現在一直強調的排富在排富的部分我們已經超過15年並沒有去修整我們裡面的排富條款所以導致在我們整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2423.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2438.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們重點的一個房子土地的價格都往上提升而且這個提升的幅度之高完全是對於老農是非常不公平的幾乎只要有自己一間房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2439.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2455.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
單純的居住而已它就可能被排附掉所以我們也希望說在這個如果是自己居住的房子證明它就只有這個房子也應該在這個所謂的計算的範圍之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2457.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2477.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以我覺得這個部分是我們現在一直強調的我們要給老農他後面的生活是有依靠的然後呢在我們整個所謂的檢討機制當中現在是以CPI四年檢討一次可是大家知道我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2479.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2491.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個物價指數的調漲每年的速度飛快而且它的速度完全已經不符合現在生活的一個基本支出所以我們認為在我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2493.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2522.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所提到的最低生活費都需要是一萬五千五百一十五可是我們目前雖然有調整了四年CPI調整一次那目前也只有調漲到八千多這八千多跟一萬五千多的差距實在太遠了所以我們希望農業部要一次能夠把它調漲在生活費的生活支出的基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2523.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2544.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
能夠討論一個基礎之後我們要求每年都要以CPI滾動式檢討這才能符合我們照顧老農的一個方向跟目標謝謝好 謝謝陳委員提案說明 謝謝那我們接下來就請農業部陳俊基部長來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2559.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2574.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席各位委員大家早那今天大院未還經濟及內政聯席會議審查有關於老農福利津貼的一個修正那我想首先還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2575.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2597.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
代表農業部及所有的農民感謝我們所有的委員來支持我們農民的相關的一個退休後的一個生活的一個保障那以下我就用簡報的方式來說明本部針對委員的提案的一些回饋跟後續工討論的一個一個方向下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2604.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2624.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那簡報大綱大概封合五點請參閱下一頁目前我們現在福利津貼在發放的時候是每四年依據消費者物價指數就是CPI的成本來調整而且是調升不調降然後目前我想每個月每人每個月是8,110塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2626.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2646.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
在現行的規定裡面有所謂的排付的一個規定但是這個排付的規定是在102年就開始實施以後就沒有調整過那相關的排付大概有三個部分一個部分是相關的所得的部分是達到50萬就不能領取老農津貼那 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2646.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2661.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
土地跟房屋價值如果合計500萬那如果沒有農舍 唯一自住房子的話可以扣除400萬那目前發放的情形是大概全年發放了大概54.7萬人那全年發放的金額是502億下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2667.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2678.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
包括委員在提這些提案的時候其實農業部也一直關心的老農福利津貼的一個調整情形那我們從這張表可以看得到其實我們的物價指數從102年 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2680.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2703.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
起開始去計算的時候到目前為止已經大概15.96%但是更重要就是公告的土地的限值從102年開始到現在已經提高了64.78%但是我們在過往的時候針對排富的這些財產的部分並沒有去做調整大概就只有針對額度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2703.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2718.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那113年排富不合格的人數大概是14500人左右所以我們在思考的時候大概也會從這樣的一個數據來思考說後續要怎麼去做相關的一個調整下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2720.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2735.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那我們先分析一下目前所有的委員所提送的版本那大概我分為三類第一類的部分是額度的調整的部分那額度的調整的部分有從不需要調一直到調一萬兩千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2736.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2761.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那當然在上個禮拜有很多委員也希望提的更高不過我們是依據送到委員會這邊來的版本大概一萬兩千元那調整的週期有些是依照我們現在的那也有希望說一年的或者是一年到兩年之間就要去做調整的那調整的門檻有3%有5%的部分那最主要就是大概用這樣的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2763.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2788.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那第二個部分是排富的所得的部分那所得的部分現在是50萬那委員的提案中大概有55萬一直到65萬那甚至於有一些委員希望說取消排富的一個條件那至於土地房屋的調整的額度的部分那有從750萬一直到1200萬的部分那也當然有委員是希望取消排富 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2789.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2807.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
至於說唯一自住房扣除的一個額度的調整現在是400萬委員有提案是從600萬一直到790萬不等當然也有委員提議說乾脆取消排付下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2808.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2827.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以根據剛才很多委員所提到的部分包括額度包括排付的條件那其實農業部也針對委員的一些意見也經過很仔細的討論然後也送到行政院去做相關的討論那基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2828.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2849.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
農業部的立場是在政府財政可負擔的情況之下是可以朝著額度方向提升的一個方向去做但是很重要就是我們必須考慮到我們的經費的一個可行性至於說過去是每四年根據CPI調整我們也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2850.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2878.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
最近幾年的CPI指數的一個提升可能根據上一次到現在已經達到3.9%左右所以我們也同意說在這個四年的期間之內我們可以定一個期中檢討的門檻就是舉個例子就是說我們每兩年檢討一次那檢討的時候如果說它有一個觸發的機制就是說它的CPI達到某一個程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2879.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2900.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們都來調整如果沒有達到那個程度我們就不調整就是其中的一個檢討的機制檢討的機制以本部的立場我想根據過往的CPI的一個成長我們建議是3%到5%之間如果它觸發了CPI達到這個值的時候是可以啟動一個適度的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2901.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2917.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那至於排富的部分因為剛才已經講了排富的部分我們從102年大概到現在已經都沒有調整那的確是應該調整的部分所以我們是朝著可以放寬排富的標那個方向來處理那 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2918.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2940.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
至於說排富的所得的部分是根據CPI這個比較沒有問題但是財產的部分我們是根據土地公告限值就是COV的部分那剛才我有秀出一張圖跟各位講從102年到113年我們的土地公告限值已經提高了64.78%其實相當大的一個幅度 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2940.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2969.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以我們希望說第一個所得可以針對CPI去重新調整去提高那第二個部分是針對土地的公告限值我們希望說也可以朝著這個排富的一個放寬的部分那我們也試算過了就是大概受益人數大概是3000人到7500人左右但是剛才也提到了各個委員的這些額度也好排富的這些金額也好並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2970.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2974.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
一些很一致的一個共識 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2976.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3003.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那我們也曾經試算過如果說以現行的八千一百一十塊我提高到那個九千一萬一萬五的時候相關的額外的經費我都也算出來那簡單的說現在目前的領取人數如果是以五十三萬人來說的話那相對的我每提高一千塊就需要五十需要應該是五十三億不只應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3005.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3034.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
增加63億因為12個月一年12個月所以相對的就是說每提高1000塊的話要將近64億左右所以我以農業部的立場未來在討論這個額度的時候當然我們都希望說越高越好對農民越有保障但是考慮到很多跟其他的社會福利基金的制度的一個橫平性那當然農業部當然會以農民為優先的考量但是也必須考量到其他的一個社會福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3036.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3057.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
制度的一個很明信那更重要就是要考量我們的財政的一個能力那後續的部分我想這個就是由委員這邊來討論那我相信行政院的版本會盡快的送到立法院來因為行政院的內部的一個審查已經結束了那結束了以後只要通過院會就可以送到立法院來那希望下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3059.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3077.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
希望大家一起來跟委員一起的討論那再次重申本部持適當的一個額度的調整排幅的放寬來提供農民失智的一個幫助然後同時建立定期檢討決調整機制以合理適時的反映物價的一個波動 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3078.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3105.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那整個大致上是跟委員提案的一個精神是一致的那後續我想再一起來努力我們朝一個比較有共識的方向來著手 以上好 謝謝部長 謝謝部長的說明接下來請進行詢問那做一下宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3106.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3132.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
本會委員 本聯席會委員選擇時間為6加2分鐘那列席委員4分鐘4點半截止發言登記那委員如有書面質詢請於上月前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3136.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3139.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩陳部長來 請部長好 部長早 部長這個是提案要提高老農津貼的委員的名單我知道剛剛由 到剛剛為止也有很多的更新就是各黨派都有 但其中還是以執政黨的這個委員最多 那我想請教部長 部長老農津貼暫行條例是法律案還是預算案是法律案 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3165.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3193.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
是法律案應該是法律案那部長修法提高老農津貼會不會增加政府的支出當然會當然會那立法委員有沒有權利提出提高老農津貼的修法呢我基本上我想建議可以修這個法是沒有問題的但是相對的我剛才說的那個額度的部分額度的部分從行政單位去提因為行政單位會考慮到議委有沒有權利提修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3194.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3221.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我還是說嘛就是針對額度的部分應該是尊重行政院所提的因為這個部分是牽涉到預算的部分那委員是可以提高要提高但是如果指定一個金額的話那就是等於說相對的我這樣問的理由我想請你先看個影片我們先來確定一件事你們的第一點理由說違反憲法權利分立原則侵害行政權憲法規定本院提出預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3228.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3228.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
請時間請暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3233.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3261.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好 那就好 那不然我直接講 那像說行政院秘書長張東涵在司法法制委會說以財化法為例 他說是法律案包裝的預算案 影響到行政院編列預算的權益 所以是違憲的那我請教部長 按照行政院對財化法的邏輯 會影響行政院編列預算的法案就可能違憲 那麼假設我們最後通過劉昭偉的版本 劉靜活教委的版本 假設假設把老農經濟提高到每月1萬元 這樣有違憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3264.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3269.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我想如果各委員都支持行政院版本然後由行政院版本通過就沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3270.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3298.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我剛剛提到的就是事實上你剛剛才說正在準備嘛所以我剛才說就是支持行政院的版本就絕對沒有問題沒有違憲的問題那立法委員你剛剛也有權利修法啊對 修法可以說提高我們支持委員提高但是額度的部分額度部分如果尊重立法行政院總統會不會不附屬不公佈呢如果沒有按照你所謂行政院的版本呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3299.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3314.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我想農民福利的津貼是很多委員的一個共識那我希望支持行政院的版本因為行政院的版本後續會針對我們的經費我這樣說的理由是因為到目前為止只有立法院的版本立委版本那農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3315.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3325.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我們今天是備詢今天並不是在處理相關的一個法案的條文我為什麼這樣問後續的部分等行政院送出來了以後我們就會來一起來併審請尊重我的質詢在發出普發先進特別條例的時候執政黨一場違憲結果大罷免大失敗就行政院又說從善如虜才提出這個版本這時候又有這個執政黨立委改口說這是行政院幫立法院解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3339.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3354.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那按照這位執政黨立委的邏輯我們今天審查老農津貼暫行條例沒有農業部的版本沒有行政院版本那怎麼解套呢我個人非常肯定我跟委員說明今天是整個的備詢的部分後續的部分如果說行政院的版本送進來以後就可以合併來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3355.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3364.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我們看過這樣的太多例子了這個行政整個怠惰我個人非常肯定召委今天排審我希望立法院包括委員能夠支持現在的總預算趕快進審因為審查總預算是立法院的一個權責我希望說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3371.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3394.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
整個的預算趕快審對農民我們後續的支持才會有我進來這兩年我看到太被動了啦反正都是立法院委員先提出版本然後這個可是相對的我還是希望委員能夠支持整個總預算趕快送審因為總預算卡住了以後對農民的很多基礎建設都沒辦法要執行立法院三讀通過的這個條例好嗎可是相對的立法院的總執行更重要立法院的總執行更重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3396.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3414.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
11月租資禁運禁載期間 禁運禁載期間農業部說會擴大積壓額的這個供應量但事實上屠宰量是受影響的因為過去被拿來當廚餘餵養的這個動物性廢渣 下繳料也就是雞爪 雞脖子等等因為沒有辦法拿去餵豬了所以影響屠宰量 目前有報導指出未來全面禁止廚餘養豬的時候那積壓型等這個下繳料 要額外 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3419.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3446.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
額外清運處理的話每隻雞至少會上漲10塊錢以上請問農業部有掌握這個價格嗎還是已經都上漲了我們當然有掌握這個價格以現在的租價來講我們基本上大概是90塊 91塊最低不到89塊左右那其他的物料還是一致性在那邊的我還是跟委員強調所有的這些防疫是以非洲豬瘟的防疫是以防疫為重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3447.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3468.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那現在中央應變中心並沒有解散所以中央應變中心就是為了讓這個非洲豬能夠很明確的是限住在台東市我們非常清楚因為現在的邊境管制跟這個海關的管制沒有辦法完全杜絕所以只好從這個廚餘下手不是 我們有三道防線第一道是邊境 第二道是後市場第三道才是養豬場 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3469.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3490.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
但是我剛剛只是請教部長就是說你做出這個處於這個就禁用在未租的這個情況下那有很多的這個成本清運處理成本還有這個當然我今天不提到這個所謂這個廢棄物的這個等等處理的量能等等我剛剛就是請教說你有沒有去了解這個掌握這個可能漲價的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3491.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3509.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們所有的所有的這些養豬的這些飼料相關的成本我們都隨時在掌握我也跟委員講現在目前是禁止廚藝養豬那所有的東西都是用飼料的部分就沒有所謂說在這些飼料會漲價會降價因為這些物料都不能進來的我剛剛是美食記憶因為他後面的這個肺渣這個下腳肉他要重新去清運處理所以他的成本他的成本會上漲10塊錢你沒有好好聽清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3520.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3529.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
沒有 相對的處理費的部分是由環境部會有經費去支應的好 推給環境部 好 我想說我不是推喔沒有 相關的這些處理費是環境部會編列經費的我再換一個問題這個分埔泥雞蛋事件三個月爆發了現在已經台灣第三次了這個問題一直存在表示說你沒有辦法好好處理那我們就必須回頭檢視台灣這個雞隻飼養的根本問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3546.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3552.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
因為芬芙尼是環境用藥它不是用在雞身上它必須是用在雞舍清空以後的消毒使用但是台灣的飼養環境很難執行了因為目前還是以格子龍為主根本就無法說清空這個雞舍那去年年初有個機構叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3566.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3570.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
讓基於展示國際聯盟他針對亞洲還有紐西蘭大概有十幾個國家 總共十幾個國家做評比那檢視各國推動這個淡基產業轉型就非農飼養的政策結果滿分是140分你看看部長我們台灣剛剛得到29分這個慘不忍睹也蠻丟臉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3587.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3612.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
非農飼養不是只有動保的議題他會減少這個降低這個這個食安的風險跟感染風險雖然農業部你有訂定這個雞蛋友善生產系統的定義指南提供所謂的友善蛋農第一例貸款以及友善生產系統的標示但都停留在鼓勵的性質我完全沒有政策的這個有效的去執行所以你看看這個有掛鈴的地方就是這個廢除蛋積蛋積那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3615.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3638.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
融資的進度我們是零掛零分的我想請問部長你有沒有打算往廢除戰機融資用融資來飼養這個政策方向去做呢我跟你講我們政策上還是會去朝向一個合理的一個友善的一個飼養但是以現在目前台灣的這些養殖現況那基本上我們還是用鼓勵的方式去處理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3640.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3659.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
委員所看到的 你看飛龍四陽的轉型措施我們是蠻高分的我們是比其他國家還高差不了多少 但是廢除的部分是比較慢慢廢除的部分是比較低但是我們國家最主要是一個希望由 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3660.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3683.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
業者自行的轉型 而不是用強制性的方式去處理那你現在還有這麼多理由 還在留在鼓勵那鼓勵也沒有結果啊 掛零的你也不講16分也很高嗎16分是倒數第二名啊當然都是我們一個非常執政上面或政策設計上的一個非常好的一個建議那我們會朝友善的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3685.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3703.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那請農業多努力包括今天老農今天你們這個版本每次都是這樣子看到立法院提案要審查你們才跟進今天我們根本沒有這個農業部或行政院的版本可以討論沒有我剛才說今天只是備群大家交換意見後續行政院的版本送進來的話我會併案來審查總是看著辦這樣不好啦請多加油謝謝好謝謝陳委謝謝部長接下來請陳庭惠委來做訊答 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3717.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3743.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請陳部長委員好部長 我想本來立法跟行政它的角色的不一樣是立法院 立法委員可以有建議權然後把這些建議權匯集之後由我們行政院依照我們可行的而且可以對農民最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3744.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3767.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
版本我們提出最適當的然後再送到立法院來然後再去做雙向然後這個通過之後如果行政院版本通過那麼就是我們已經整合了包括我們的立法院委員的意見我們農民的意見還有我們現在整個財主單位的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3768.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3785.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
用一個最能夠執行的方向我想這是我們一直以來行政立法分工合作最重要的依據所以我們也一直在要求就是說確實我們所有的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3785.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3802.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
對於老農今天我們已經提過了很久的一個狀況而且我們討論數次在我們的經濟委員會當中其實我們已經討論很久很久很久了所以在這個部分大家認為時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3804.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3819.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
尤其排富居然已經超過15年沒有去做調整可是當我們整個物價跟房屋不斷的在調整它的地價指數還有我們的一個房屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3821.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3848.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個數字已經超乎了老農他可以維持可以承擔的方向所以我認為時間到了所以為什麼現在我們的召委要排是因為時間到了而且我們也看到我們目前所有中央曾經衛福部有公告的就是我們低收入戶最低生活費的一個公告基準就是15515 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3852.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3875.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
可是我們雖然老農今天我們當時候有修法一次就是把它依照4年的CPI去做調整可是調整到現在也只有到8,110元這跟我們的實質生活費的一個看法是有實質的落差所以我們才認為說時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3877.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3895.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
一定要趕快對於在老農津貼的一個檢討機制我們要調整就是CPI每年一定要做檢討不能四年啦 四年太久了每一年他叫我們CPI的指數去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3898.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3919.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這樣人民會覺得政府跟他們站在一起不然你不給資助一直在去我們的生活經驗一直沒改變所以大家也認為時間到了所以我們認為說現在我們行政院責無旁貸 不能再拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3921.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3944.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們的版本這麼多 尤其你若不站出來講大家好好講甚至是農民的想法 農會是最直接的什麼一個基準讓人民能夠接受 讓農民能夠接受到底是多少數額 一萬或是有人漫天海 現在已經海到一萬五了 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3946.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3968.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這些都是在我們整個建議案立委的建議案裡面我們曾經看到的可是最後的主導權是行政院你要去弄出一套我們可以做的而不是每一次弄出來讓大家漫天喊價之後這個跟我過去說真的我從政27年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3971.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3986.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
過去大家跟我們講說省預算就是不能增加預算可以刪預算 不能增預算可是現在大家是在漫天寒假然後搞了一堆政府根本無法執行的案子當然你明天會很慘 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3988.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4010.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
但是當你沒辦法執行的時候不是更糟糕嗎不是又把人民的權利跟義務又把它往回拉了嗎這跟我們民意代表在所謂第一線為人民發聲的一個阻止跟目標是不一樣的所以我會講那麼多是我認為時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4013.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4036.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
不論是從我們檢討每年CPI要檢討一次然後我們要一次把所謂的現在是調整到8118這是不夠的我們要怎麼拿到哪一個一次到的數額然後再每年檢討一次依照CPI然後再做排富的一個放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4039.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4051.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個才是農民要的部長你認為呢我想非常謝謝委員的一番一席話那我非常認同那基本上從過往的這邊這些數據顯示是時候到了應該去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4055.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4078.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那剛才在我的報告裡面我也非常正面的回應各位的意見那我要說明的一點就是說所有的法律案牽涉到經費的部分如果有充分的經過討論不管是各黨各派來討論的時候那得到的一個共識而且是經過行政院特別如果以農業部看的話是確認可行的話那那個法律案通過就絕對沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4079.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4087.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我們最擔心的就是說完全沒有討論直接進到表決那樣子未來就可能牽扯到一些財政上的支出的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4088.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4113.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以你認為時間到了所以你們行政院你農業部自己其實也有版本了對不對所以我覺得就像我們退休儲金一樣退休儲金我當時候也是認為時間到了那既然我們就要趕快讓老農 讓農民有感讓青農有感不要每次我們都這裡討錢然後都被掛在外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4116.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4135.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以我當時候就說我們退休儲金時間到了所以你看我們現在我們行政院的版本也已經都送到退休儲金已經送到立法院了現在就是因為那個復一期嘛12月30復一期過我已經排定了1月7號我們要來協商一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4138.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4148.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
老農今天這個部分我們也希望行政院趕快通過院會然後送到立法院來你認為多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4150.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4173.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我相信在一兩個禮拜之內應該就會送出來一兩個禮拜因為這個禮拜四這個禮拜四剛好那個放假嘛對那我不知道會不會加開那下禮拜我們希望說盡快我會跟行政院溝通盡快可不可以在下禮拜因為相關的程序都審完了只要經過院會通過就可以送到立法院來我們期待下禮拜看看會爭取排進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4173.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4200.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我們拜託下個禮拜行政院會要排進那排進之後只要通過就可以送立法院來這樣我們老農才有感啊尤其我必須說的我們農業部我們替我們農民做活在這裡從蔡英文總統開始我們的三寶一金耶那是我們民進黨政府從一開始老農今天是誰是陳水扁總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4202.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4222.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
然後三寶一金是誰是蔡英文總統就是要讓我們老農有保障對於我們的農業保險對於我們的農民健康保險對於我們的職災跟我們的農民退休儲金這個部分都是讓我們的農民有保障因為都是看天吃飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4223.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4238.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以這個部分我們不能把這個對老農那麼好的一個方向然後似乎要去掛鍋子要做我們就做到好該檢討的就檢討不適宜的就把它做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4239.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4266.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這就是我們共同的方向我們期待下個禮拜行政院院會通過然後馬上送到立法院來我相信我們可以用最快的速度我們的召委就可以讓我們老農今天快速通過依照一個可以執行的方向然後農民又可以接受又可以讓我們老農有保障的這才是我們共同的期待謝謝好 謝謝委員支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4269.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4285.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好 謝謝省委 謝謝部長接下來請林月請委員來做選擇麻煩我們的農業部部長來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4291.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4318.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
委員好 部長早剛我要謝謝我們在野黨的陳委員幫我們釐清了違憲的真正原因是因為藍白根本不採行政院的意見要政院違法舉債5000億這才是問題對吧部長我想所有的法律案一定經過充分的討論而最後完成了一個法律的程序以後那這樣子的話所有的行政的系統才能夠執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4320.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4343.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
對 部長今天我主要在思考的是老人農民福利津貼這個議題時我認為保障農民生活是要讓農民有尊嚴工作有前景藉此我很希望我們的青年願意投入我想你也是一樣會期待青年投入那這不是福利加碼這是我們守住糧食安全的最基本也是最根本的基礎之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4344.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4370.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那部長 糧食要安全就要有足夠的人才那有青年願意投入農業我的本業是社工所以長期關注青少年的職癌輔導這會期也在和勞動部一起改善青少年的職癌跟就業我知道有很多青年返鄉勿農的成功案例但我要跟第一線的社工說農業是可被推薦的人生的一個選項我們得先把現實輪廓釐清所以想來跟部長請益 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4371.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4394.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
首先農業部說青年農民經營準備金是給新進農民18歲就能申請18到24歲而且還特別規劃相關科系成績優異的畢業生可能有價高的準備金支持那就請問部長18到24歲實際申請的比例高不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4395.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4414.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我基本上大概是如果說現在有資格的大概是900多人然後現在申請大概300多人大概三分之一吧 將近四成那你們有沒有統計跟背景分析依據申請的規則這個年紀要申請計劃的話就必須具備農業經營場域還有符合產業條件部長對於剛畢業的青少年來講這個實務上難不難我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4425.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4452.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
要有自己有地比較困難但是用租地的方式是一個可行的因為我們的從農準備金一年一個月給他是3萬可是部長這要有經營場域就是說你要有農業經營場域對 你可以租地但是擁有地是比較困難的是 可是我說對啊我說那如果對這18到24歲的這樣子的狀況裡面這些程度上難不難 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4454.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4477.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我想第一個部分就是你要實際重新農業你必須要有技術那你如果沒有地你租地所以為什麼我們在從農準備金裡面一年給他36萬那給他36萬其中有一部分也是希望他付租金能夠實際去從農部長我覺得這政策是很好可是如同我跟勞動部要求的就是我認為一個要照顧到青少年的政策就要去檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4478.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4496.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這個年齡層的申請比例才能知道而且這個方案到底有沒有接觸到青少年如果接不到就要調整做出更符合這個年齡階段的設計甚至看怎麼去扶植他部長我會這樣子問就是因為我在做青少年輔導的時候看得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4497.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4514.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
18到24歲的職癌選擇非常關鍵而你們的方案的核心就是要讓新進農民站穩腳步這是非常好的事情所以我要接下來問的是不是有沒有進來是有沒有留下來不是只有進來有沒有留下來能不能穩定在農業職癌當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4516.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4543.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以以你們的數據 農業部106年就定下了10年培育3萬名的新農民的目標到113年已經累積培養了24659人我理解這裡面可能應該也包含準備經計劃的人數那我就請教部長直接回答幾個數字就是說這24659人裡面整體來看的話真正在農業站完腳步的比例有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4544.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4555.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我第一個先更新一下數字24000多現在已經是27000左右那流農的比例大概是九成90%流用比例就是經過我們這樣子的一個方案繼續留在農業經營的話有九成 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4560.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4587.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
不會是用什麼樣的方法讓他們今天有這麼高的數據我跟各位 我跟委員說明基本上除了這些流農的準備經驗以外我們很多基礎建設然後很多他從事那個從事農業的時候我們有一些陪伴的系統包括我們試驗改良廠的陪伴系統包括我們農民學院那陪伴系統能夠讓他快速的經驗成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4587.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4607.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
然後有些基礎設施像溫室設備的補助我們也補助了將近五成那最近也是拉到八成讓他們減輕這個經濟負擔所以很多作為讓他們願意留下來那部長進一步問一下剛你的兩萬七千多人裡面全職務農的比例有多少和兼職的又有多少這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4611.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4636.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個我想我們可能還要再細部的去再提供給您 再麻煩農業部再給我們資料部長 農業部自己做統計農業所得平均每戶不到30萬元我想請教的更直接一點30歲以下的青農的收入 部內有沒有更細緻的收入統計因為他們要成家立業 未來還要養小孩那部長你掌握數據 你覺得這樣夠不夠就是他們有多少 然後你覺得這樣子夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4637.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4663.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我想委員你剛才問的那個家戶所得的部分特別是青農的部分這個部分我現在手中沒資料但是我們基本上在歷次的統計我們有分大專業農還有一些一般的農家的部分那大專業農我如果沒有記錯的話他的年所得已經超過200萬以上專業農戶的話更高但是您要的18到24歲這個族群那可不可以容我後續如果了解以後再提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4665.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4690.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
部長再麻煩因為如果好的政策我真的覺得要讓我們的社福領域的社工在輔導的時候更知道農業也是一種選項讓他們找到他們想要追求的目標再來根據報導部長也說過退儲金的覆蓋率比較低的是青年的一個農民你們掌握的狀況是青年農民面臨收入不穩農業設施跟機具的投入要貸款 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4691.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4718.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
20多歲到35歲之間只有24%我想請部長解讀一下媒體引述這句話不知道到底是什麼意思青年農民不在乎最後是否能多領一點他比較在乎的是是否能掃腳一點這句話的意思是什麼這是不是正反應青農的困境青農不是不想存退休而是現在根本就是快撐不住這樣的理解正確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4720.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4737.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這句話應該是我講的基本上我們也實際問個跟青年座談的部分因為退休除菌要到65歲領以青年來講可能30年以後的事情那30年以後能領多少他們在乎的會是現在是不是能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4738.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4754.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
依他們現在的所得能夠繼續生存下去然後他們現在目前因為我剛才說的他們的貸款因為他們從事農業需要一些貸款那這個貸款的金額我如果沒有記錯的話可能大概是3000多塊左右一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4755.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4775.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
一個月3000多塊那有的是借的少2000多塊怎樣所以他們要付貸款然後相對的他們吃住不要講了以後如果說再付這樣子的一個退休儲金的話因為他們要繳都希望繳到滿繳到10%繳1%沒意義所以他們覺得說那是不是可以少繳一點政府多出一點所以我們才會設計這個4比6的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4778.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4798.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那部長從你們數據上來看2018到2025的那個青農的人口一路攀升這一路攀升的青年人口裡面大概幾歲是投入的高峰因為我覺得要有數據才能掌握到未來你的政策裡面能夠做什麼回應部長你認為為什麼會集中到這個年齡段也就是哪一個年齡段是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4798.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4827.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我如果没有记错了我们讲实际从农走大概48.5万那45岁以下大概11万左右45岁到55岁也大概10万多大概这几个都是比较高峰的都是比较高峰的然后55岁以上都是已经很成熟有经验的农民嘛所以我们的重点就是放在45岁以下但是我们有一个政策我们发现说过完我们支持的青农他就超过45岁了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4828.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4839.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以我们现在把我们的所有的政策往上延伸到纵容就是到55岁我们希望说到55岁以下的这个东西都是受到我们能够政策可以鼓励跟支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4839.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4860.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那想問一下你們114年後還會持續做個案輔導嗎包含技術 通路 行銷 財務那我就想問說你們有沒有做過後續追蹤然後離開的人原因是什麼然後甚至最常見的卡關的因素是什麼因為要知道問題我們以後才能夠去做一些突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4861.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4875.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好 謝謝委員的提問我覺得農民的一個再教育的系統我們有一個農民學院從初級班到中級班到高級班然後特別是現在目前我們發現農業缺乏的是一個CEO |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4877.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4893.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是他有經驗了以後他想要擴大經營的時候他的管理能力不足所以我們在農業的這種高級班的部分我們就投入更多的跨領域的資源來協助他 來陪伴他這個部分我想我們農業部門做的一定遠比其他部門還多 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4894.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4923.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
部長再麻煩你前面的資料到時候再提供給我可是我想今天聽你說明我理解台灣農業挑戰非常的多也有很多發展的好的機會那最後我想用一個比較具體的情境請你回答如果你今天跟我一樣是在做青少年職癌輔導的一個社工或是一個長輩你要去跟高中生或剛大學畢業的年輕人說農業是值得當你的職癌選擇的時候你會講哪三個理由請部長盡量以我們青少年聽得懂的話來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4924.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4942.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我想我如果鼓勵我們的青少年從農的部分我覺得要去強化他的一個使命我覺得最重要的啦那相對的他進來的時候他是有很好的被照顧到所以他未來的農民的福利制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4942.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4958.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因為我想任何一個人進到職場他會對於他的整個的後續的生涯規劃的一個福利制度我會強調我們三保一新的福利制度是讓農民是有尊嚴的一個產業第二個部分我會讓他們了解說農業的經營不是單打獨鬥農業的經營是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4962.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4985.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
一個集團合作的一個趨勢我不會讓你一個人獨自奮鬥我們有很好的相關的支持系統讓你繼續從事這個農業在從事等於說從農的最後一陸由我們來陪伴用這種方式來鼓勵他們好 謝謝部長也謝謝部長剛剛的回應未來我去跟青少年福福團體跟社工分享的時候也會把你剛才講的帶上 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4987.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5014.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
可以让更多孩子们认识这样的一个行业投入这个行业不过我也要提醒的是像国防部常常会进到学校也会到社福机构做揽柴说明那我也知道农业部有在做那我建议部长是不是也可以积极跟学校跟社福团体合作会 我们绝对会我们还有开公费专班好 谢谢部长 谢谢好 谢谢不好意思 今天是联席很多很多出席农业时间上就麻烦大家来 接下来请张家俊委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5024.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5026.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
主席我想請陳部長部長早那我想呢老農今天不是今天才今天才提出來的問題那我們也希望說在今天能夠充分的討論解決這個長期以來的心頭之痛那在去年3月本席就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5046.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5068.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
提出修法是本屆第一位提出調高老農津貼金額至一萬兩千元的立法委員那現在呢跨黨派的委員包括民進黨包括民眾黨跟國民黨都已經逐漸形成一個共識那現在只剩下一個問題農業部目前的願不願意跟上 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5069.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5094.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我第一個部分我剛才在報告已經講得很清楚的不管是額度或是排付條款的放寬我們都支持委員的方向那至於說額度要達到多高那可能經過討論以後然後看看我們的經費的一個財政的一個情況那原則上我們希望提高但是也不可能提的太高因為提的太高那其實太高是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5096.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5120.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
你心裡面的太高是多少 我告訴你一萬二一萬五我覺得都太高了啦希望部長可以如您所說支持完善老農津貼的權益不要阻擋也不要跟農民作對那我想要請教您一個很簡單的問題你剛才說一萬二或一萬五太高了我想要知道說以現在的物價成本生活成本來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5121.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5143.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
您覺得每個月8,110元足夠維持老農的最基本的生活開銷嗎沒有 我跟委員報告因為從事農業並沒有退休制度他在65歲甚至於我們也發現你現在是在鼓勵大家不要從事農業嗎不是 不是我現在是跟你講說現在從事農業的他沒有一個說像一般勞工65歲就退休所以65歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5147.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5160.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
你的意思是說他可以做到老做到死就是他能做就盡量還是上田去做是這個意思嗎我們今天不要自上談兵我覺得你錯誤的解讀 我跟委員報告你錯誤的解讀喔你的心態這樣一講我就知道了那我現在在這裡算給你聽喔8100元 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5169.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5198.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我不曉得你有沒有注意家中的生活開銷你覺得一個月的水電要不要1000塊假設1000塊好了我們就先抽掉一張然後農村現在大部分是用瓦斯用瓦斯一個月他要燒水煮飯洗澡全部都要用瓦斯20斤一桶的大概是700多那再抽一張你那個是假鈔是不是假鈔啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5200.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5224.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那假操都可以隨便傻玩具操玩具操然後呢手機網路要不要錢他雖然也許不會上網但他一定要繳手機錢嘛然後再加個第四台差不多網路最便宜要400手機要400吧第四台再五六百差不多還要再1000塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5225.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5231.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
就水電 瓦斯 網路 地絲材這些雜誌就已經扣掉差不多兩千七三千了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5233.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5255.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以抽掉三張那接下來你知道農民平常長期彎腰風吹日曬雨淋搬種是他的常態所以慢性病職業傷害是他的生活常態不是例外所以掛號費藥費護具一個月省省的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5256.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5263.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們有健保 我們有農營職業災害保險都可以去支應他們的一些部分他也是要掛號費吧 1000塊再來交通費 機車 油費然後機車換車油 維修然後強制險等等包括搭乘大眾運輸工具你覺得再抽掉1000塊合理嗎如果他要加油啊 好不好我們就抽1000塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5283.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5306.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那這樣子已經算非常節省了喔本席都還沒有算上他的紅白帖算上他的勞污修善算上他的電器淘汰或者有康復的費用等等的生活雜資這樣存多少存三千一百塊那三千一百元你一個月換算下去假設用三十天下去算 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5308.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5331.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
一天吃飯真是多少平均每餐一天假設吃三餐好了平均每餐只剩下不到34塊不到35元那我不曉得部長你今天吃早餐吃什麼你有吃早餐我沒有吃你沒有吃好吧那你先省起來那我想要請問部長那你知道現在一顆饅頭一顆饅頭要多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5336.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5338.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
一個饅頭看什麼樣的饅頭是全麥饅頭還是一般白饅頭大概15塊差不多15塊那所以假設34塊5買了一顆饅頭15塊剩下就是要買菜脯 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5354.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5380.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
要減農賠饅頭你知道嗎你知道這就是我們現在老農的生活水平我很難過的告訴你說我們現在每天得以溫飽就是這些老農民每天努力生產給我們得以溫飽能夠吃的好吃的營養結果這些提供我們食物的老農民反而不得溫飽 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5384.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5398.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
情何以堪啊情何以堪 我真的學得非常的難過每天能夠提供我們豐衣足食這些好的食物來源的老年農民反而不得溫飽 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5400.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5425.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你覺得這合理嗎我跟委員報告你可以接受嗎相對的所有的農民的福利制度就是在照顧最重要是照顧我們年紀長老的農民但是從數據來看65歲以上還在持續從事農業的人口有將近30萬人所以你現在在意思說他不需要提高是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5425.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5446.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我有說他要適度的提高我一直強調你現在一直在說明的意思是說老農過著非常好的生活我沒有說我沒有這樣說我沒有這樣說是你說的你把老農當作一個悲情的工具在操作是不是你把老農當作一個非常悲情的工具在操作我再問你一個問題你知道假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5449.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5454.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
老龍絕對沒有要操作老龍絕對不是一個悲劇的操作人我沒有要操作我只是覺得他們應有的權益你應該要支持你不應該拿任何的 excuse來告訴大家說好像他過得非常好的生活一個月發十萬塊那是不是很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5468.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5480.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我現在是在跟你說average我現在不是在跟你講情緒性的事情你不要上頭啦你不要情緒上頭好不好你支持我需要你支持好講的這句話我接受這句話我接受我再問你一個問題我就問你一個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5484.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5502.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你現在是怎樣 你現在是情緒上頭 你要一個月發十萬我想我們也很高興啊川普也說他一個月 他也要每個國民發十萬啊所以我現在就要跟你講金額我問你 現在每個月的平均支出是多少 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5504.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5521.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
你講什麼平均支出是什麼就是每個人平均支出啊 不同的地區都不一樣那以雲林縣為例 主計處統計假設是去年好了 前年2023年平均支出是多少你知道嗎 我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5525.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5533.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
2356元然後2011年我相信你更不會知道了2011年的average是多少13696元你知道從2011年到2023年 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5540.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5555.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
增加了幾倍嗎1.48倍1.48倍我告訴你你不能把老農看作什麼政治操弄的工具那是你心中所想我告訴你你每次都是用老農你都把老農當作一個政治操作的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5559.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5564.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
你這樣子是汙衊 你這樣子是汙衊我告訴你 你在現場隨便汙衊這是對嗎老農是一個有尊嚴的 我也希望幫他們爭取尊嚴啊但是你講的 你講的是有尊嚴嗎你講的是有尊嚴 我現在拿數據問你嘛我現在拿數據問你 你認為跟2011年相比 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5582.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5597.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
現在的物價是不是有比較高我們物價每年的CPI都有在統計是 那所以是不是比較高對啊 有高啊所以我們過去老農基金在4年CPI調整一次4年你覺得 來得及嗎但是我們覺得那個基數太低所以我也同意說 同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5598.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5603.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
低數太低 基數過低每一次就只調整一點點根本追不上快速上升的物價跟生活成本嘛我覺得你的心態真的讓我很質疑說怎麼會你是農業反對部部長吧怎麼會要照顧農民的我們提案我們提案你就覺得說我們在操縱什麼悲情 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5620.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5626.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我說你剛才的發言不是提案我們的提案是針對現在的物價指數來說我覺得你這樣子污蔑我是非常的不應該你站在這個質詢台上你沒有為老農著想我已經覺得你不應該了所以我現在問你所以你覺得一萬二是太高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5645.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5669.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我說這個東西要看財政負擔財政負擔的部分那排富呢排富他明明沒有多賺錢他也明明沒有多房子他就是我告訴你並不是所有的老農都是靠8110塊的生活我先問你嘛我先問你支不支持排富嘛你支不支持排富我也支持適當的排富啊我都支持啊那所以你支持的內容是怎麼樣你覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5672.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5690.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
牌付是多少才合理呢我支持第一個我支持額度適度的提高第二個牌付我支持所得適當的提高要根據CPI去提高過去都沒有第三個自住房財產的部分我也覺得應該根據土地公告限值去提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5691.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5711.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
很單純我都支持好非常好我想今天有非常多的版本排富的版本其實大家都大同小異但是大家都是支持排富那我也很高興聽到部長說你願意支持排富因為其實剛才我看林月琴委員他在講他也在呼籲說年輕人你要呼籲年輕人從事農業你如果沒有告訴他說這個農業是有可能讓他有一個好的遠景的怎麼會有人願意呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5721.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5723.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
農作的意願就會降低啊所以我在這裡呼籲部長您身為掌管農業機關最高的首長應該要理解老農制度的調整跟是攸關整個農業人力世代交替跟產業永續的必要修法那我也在這裡提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5742.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5765.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
農為國本這個基本價值是跨黨派委員都支持的基本社會照顧農民一生看天吃飯擔起台灣的糧食安全這就是本次修法最核心也最單純的目標請你在這裡要擺正你的想法 謝謝我的想法非常正我還是支持所有的委員的一個提案好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5771.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5782.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個要為農民爭取提高行政權益我想農業部陳部長也一直很積極然後各位委員也都很積極對啦 大家都很積極 所以就理性討論好 謝謝接下來請張志倫委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5789.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5815.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那個農業部有很多出席的官員都沒有寫在裡面等一下等一下補充一下給你們補充介紹不然你來這邊就坐的有點渺茫來謝謝好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員好有請農業部這個陳部長以及勞動部以及那個原住民組委員會洪副處長洪副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5818.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5834.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
來 委員好好 謝謝部長那首先今天這個是我們這個未還跟內政委員會等等的聯席所以今天本席特別到現場針對老農的相關的津貼就由部長來就請教那我想要先請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5835.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5853.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
原住民組委員會的代表就是你們先可不可以講一下說根據這次的修法針對50那個原住民從55歲起請領津貼其實你們今天在報告裡面寫到特別有寫到因為原住民的平均壽命比全體國民大概少了7.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5856.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5874.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
稅這是一個殘酷的科學的現實所以代表原住民原住民的農民在身體上能領取津貼的時間比一般農民少了7年之多這是你們今天在報告裡面明確去寫的可是你們今天的報告被這個農業部打臉他說可是雖然你們講的很對啊可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5876.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5901.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個農業部的報告裡面寫說老農今天屬於職業屬性不應該針對特定族群有特別規範那也違反你們今天裡面報告裡面寫的這個原住民基本法的部分應該對原住民族的這個社會福利事項應該要積極的辦理補助所以這邊是不是先請這個原住民委員會的處長你要堅定你的想法是不是可以請你表達幾句 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5903.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5926.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
是 謝謝委員那根據我們就是委託那個國家衛生研究院的那個研究最近一切的113年的報告的確就是原住民的那個平均餘命的部分跟非原住民的朋友們大概是相差7.54歲那這個部分的話就在因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5927.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5944.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
不要緊張不要緊張幫忙原住民朋友講出來就本位的立場來看就是因為這個有關於老農的那個政策的一個規劃雖然是原住民老農也是很重要啊對雖然是農業部在規劃但是這是一種集體權的一種保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5951.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5967.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那我的意思也就是說如果說假設對於那個老農經貼的那個那個年紀年齡對年齡的如果是放在65歲的話那也就表示說其實大部分的針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5968.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5997.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
原住民對 老農的今天的政策規劃原住民農民是領不到的嗎對 原住民的農民是沒有辦法領到的好 謝謝再基於就是我們的委託研究的部分我們還是認為說可以支持好 謝謝洪處長好 那洪部長謝謝 那我們請部長部長你有沒有聽到這個原住民族委員會的心聲是不是請你你是不是你這個報告裡面就是用一句話就寫說就把這個把他們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5998.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6014.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
修法把他給整個給這個不同意啊我跟委員報告是不是你們可以想個比較好的方式我先跟委員提供一個數據剛才原民會這邊提到是一個全體原住民的年齡嘛平均的年齡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6014.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6034.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那我們是針對有清零老農津貼的這些原住民他的平均餘命是82.7比全國的零老農津貼的還高所以他從事農業的這一群你說的是什麼數字從事農業的這一群原住民退休的平均餘命是82.7歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6036.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6046.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
比全國的這些人齡80.8歲還高所以我們老農津貼關心的是從事農業的這一群原住民他的年齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6047.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6073.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不會比較低 不會比全國的低反而比全國的還高所以我們是從這個角度去建議說還是維持65歲那我不是說原委會的資料是錯的他是用全部的原住民不管你是從事任何行業的所以這兩個基準不一樣可是以農業部來講我們處理的是老農津貼所以我們會看零老農津貼的餘命是多少是82.7歲 比一般的還高 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6074.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6103.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
可是我要跟部長講你這樣你這個數字是剛剛你提出來的那我覺得你這樣提出來的話如果照你的數字來講是正確那當然我覺得大家是可以討論不過你在裡面就是直接就是裡面就是強調說就是不能因為不同族群而有特別規範你直接這句話去回覆我認為是不太恰當的就像你剛才解釋如果是真的數字的話其實我相信不曉得原住民族委員會的代表能不能認同你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6105.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6130.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有沒有再解釋一下是 我們是認為說就是因為我相信剛剛部長的那個數據應該是是依照他們去調查的數據那就我們這邊的立場我們是認為說就像剛剛我所講的這個部分是一個集體政策的一個規劃所以我認為說既然我們在我們通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6132.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6152.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
委託國家衛生研究院的那個報告是這樣出來的話我們還是認為就是你整個政策居然是要造福所有的那個那個這個族群的話應該就要讓他有接受到這個政府政策的那個規劃的可能性那我們自己也也有稍微去也是依據農業部這邊的資料那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6156.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6184.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
原住民55歲以上未滿65歲的頭保的農保人數在7500多人那從110年的時候是8000多人那到111年的時候是7500多人所以其實人數都是在大概是呈現500到600之間的那個削減所以我認為說如果說假設要照顧這個呃農民的老年的生活的話我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6187.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6204.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
應該還是能夠我們還是建議可以張照55歲比照國民年金給付的方式去去做那個農民的給付但是這個部分的話我也跟委員報告我們很希望就是說可以降低原住民勤領津貼的那個年紀不過我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6208.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6229.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
也會尊重這次農業部對整個農民生活的一個政策的規劃好謝謝副處長有請部長那就是說這件事情就是說因為剛剛我們副處長有特別講其實原住民依照勞基法他的這個原住民給付的年齡也是調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6229.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6240.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
到55歲所以這未來再好好檢討一下多跟其他部會大家多溝通聽聽其他部會的聲音那另外一個其他我要跟你請教就是今天最大家最討論最多的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6242.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6269.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
導入今天的戰刑條例這次的修法是第二條 第四條跟第七條重點在第四條就是有關於年金給付的金額到底是多少就本席所了解你們8月7號已經將戰刑條例的修正案送給行政院現在已經過了四個多月為什麼行政院的版本到底在哪裡我們有懷疑這像是不是牛布化的行政效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6270.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6288.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
既然你想要調整那為什麼現在政府行政院為什麼都沒有提出版本那這樣到底有沒有我們感受到好像照顧農民的那個心不是是不是就是口號那我想要請教說現在的草案的問題到底是卡在哪裡那你們是不是可以簡單來跟大家講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6290.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6305.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我跟委員報告就是從部的角度來講我們可以針對農業的相關的這些法律案或是相關的政策我們可以做一個很好的規劃送到行政院的時候那基本上行政院考慮的不只是這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6306.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6335.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他會考慮到跟這個法有關的其他的社福基金的一個橫平性跟一致性所以在這個過程中也考慮到我們的物價指數也逐漸的提高了也考慮到排富的這些土地公告協定來變動所以我們也是在行政院不是等待審查是在討論非常多次的過程中不斷的去精進我們的版本所以我們這一次剛才報告的過程中其實也大致上符合委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6335.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6360.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
就是額度是朝提高的方向我們有適當的排付這個東西都已經符合委員的期待只是那個額度到底要多少這個就是到時候我們再來看怎麼樣的去討論找到一個平衡點我先有看到你們農業部有一個有針對各委員提高的版本你們有做一個統爭表那請問一下部長你有沒有哪一個版本你是看起來覺得你比較人認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6360.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6384.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我剛才說的這個還是要去尊重委員的版本那我只針對這個現在這裡面的部分那我剛才說的我把這裡面的經費你的意見 你本身的意見咧我的經驗就是要看我們的財政的負擔我們要看財政的負擔那現在有很多版哪一個金額是你比較認同我們的金額會落在這裡面就是說你8000到12000都考慮只是說都考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6385.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6389.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們都有考慮都有試算那我們最後的建議板會落在這個之間落在這之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6394.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6420.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
對因為很抱歉因為行政院並沒有核定我沒有辦法所以意思就是說這四版那我再講一下今天所以這四個版本你認為都不會未來只要發布三讀通過都可以實行就對了你的意思是這樣子嗎對我剛才一個強調就是說因為我們行政院在設計經費的時候一定考慮到我們的財政的一個負擔所以在這個財政的負擔我才會有一個分析表就是從那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6421.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6447.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
九千塊一直到一萬五的財政部長所以政府都是有能力負擔的不管是九千塊到一萬一萬二你們都有討論過我們提出來的是我們覺得你剛剛是說部長不是說你的版本所有版本都能接受落在這個之間包含嗎包含一萬二到八千我說落在這個之間不代表就是這個之間都可以這兩個不同的意思喔那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6448.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6476.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你不回答到底你的想法是什麼你回答一個很廣泛的就是落在這個之間這個聽不太懂啦那最後就要跟這個部長拜託為什麼有這麼多不同的版本剛剛張家俊委員也說有一萬二的版本其實就是考慮到老農他的生活的等等相關的負擔而且以及我們大家最常講的就是這個有關於這個他們的一般的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6479.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6494.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個生活的基本生活費等等的都是他們在參考的一個重點所以還是要拜託部長在這邊的時候盡量可以針對接近他們的基本生活費就像剛剛張家俊委員講的不然他們生活其實是相對來講比較辛苦在這拜託部長幫忙 謝謝好 謝謝張委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6499.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6526.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那委會在這邊公告我們到呂毅霖委員宣達結束之後我們休息十分鐘那這邊再補充介紹一下我們列席的官員榮良署姚思源署長還有約署王茂成署長還有榮春花展及水土保持署蘇茂祥副署長謝謝還有榮田水利署朱孝恩主任秘書謝謝接下來請鄭前委員來做宣達 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6536.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6537.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
謝主席 我想請一下農業部陳俊濟陳部長蔣維好 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6544.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6571.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
部長好也謝謝主席今天特別安排老農津貼暫停條例的一個相關修法的一個質詢我想說因為今天我們排審老農津貼條例的修正案很多委員都非常的關心因為光是版本就高達39個就表示這個在委員當中其實是一個非常關心的部分我們相信農業部應該也關心這事情所以4個多月前就已經提到行政院會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6572.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6589.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我想針對這個部分我想特別針對排富的部分跟農業部這邊做一個討論老農今天實施到今天排富的門檻是不是過低一直都有一些爭議很多農民因為今年土地公告限制和房價上漲即使生活很勤儉 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6590.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6602.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那也都超過門檻而是失去資格那被認為有一些不公平跟不符合現實那我想請教部長我想你一定知道說我們目前整個排富的一個門檻是怎麼樣子對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6604.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6626.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
對 我了解大概分兩個部分一個是所得的部分 一個是財產的部分另外一個是沒有有自住房 就是有自住的這個部分是 那最簡單來講的時候我就說我們的排富門檻就是你剛剛所得的部分跟那個資產的部分土地跟房屋的價值合計多少元以下就會被排除掉500萬500萬嘛 那有幾年沒有調整從102年到現在都沒調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6631.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6660.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
102年到現在都沒有調整已經14年了嘛那14年都沒有調整的時候我想說我稍微查了一下就是土地這邊我不講啦我光是全國的一個住宅的一個狀態這個14年來的時候大概全國的平均漲幅大概超過四成五左右大概是我看內政部的一個住宅統計資料那因為我們這個排富的狀態是土地連住宅一起併入進去所以我比較好奇就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6662.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6673.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
過去這14年來 農業部有沒有統計過有多少農民因為我們的土地房屋價格上漲而失去清令 老農津貼的數字有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6675.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6690.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
對不起我現在一時沒辦法回1萬4千人現在是排除的排除嘛對不對那排除當中就是說過去這四年當中的時候因為土地跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6691.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6717.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
房屋價值的一個上漲然後他們被排除被排除在那個新寧老農今天之外有一萬四千人嘛對不對應該這麼講我們現在所有的排富的話是排掉一萬四千人但是這個排的包括裡面有不同的原因我理解所以我問的是針對土地跟房屋價值上漲超過五百萬之後被排除的有多少量這個可能後續要做切割到1.2萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6719.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6735.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
1.2萬人那我想說這個都是一個必須要被特別關注到的因為14年沒有去調整可是我們發現有1萬2千人因為這個原因而被排除在這個老人今天的範圍當中所以我想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6735.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6759.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
针对这排富条件的时候我们肯定是要特别去关注而且其实除了这一万两千人之外我们在农业区当中我们还碰到一个现象很多农民为了要争取到老农津贴他们就提早把房产过户给小孩然后这样的情况又衍生很多后续的一个家庭问题就是部长知不知道这个状态 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6760.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6783.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我了解了解嘛所以說有很多老農他們還沒有離開農業還沒有離農他們就已經先被迫離房所以我覺得這個其實有一點違背我們訂定這個暫行條例的初衷所以針對這個排富的狀態的時候目前大概有兩種的取向一個是提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6784.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6803.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
土地加房屋的一個總額對不對 一個是這樣的狀態另外一個邏輯是排除到唯一自住房屋的這個部分那我不知道部長覺得怎麼樣的解決方案比較適合目前台灣的一個環境然後也是農業部有接下來會繼續去推的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6804.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6825.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我第一個跟委員報告就是有些農民他把財產移轉給他的子女我覺得不見得百分之百都是為了領老農經理解當然是這樣子不是有一些這樣子的一個案例嗎第二個我個人一直認為也包括農業部的立場也一直認為其實我們農民在年輕的時候辛辛苦苦的耕種 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6826.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6844.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
然後得到一些收入收入好不容易買一個房子那那個房子本身他也不會輕易去賣他啦所以當他的房子因為土地公告限制一直拉高的時候那造成他可能達到某一個門檻就被排掉了我認為是不合理的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6844.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6870.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以这是一万两千人嘛我们数字出来有一万两千人所以我们会针对这个土地公告限值的部分去做一些处理那所得的部分过去虽然说我们的额度是根据四年CPI调一次但是所得都没有动都没有根据CPI所以我们也希望说这一次一并把过去十几年来没调的一次到位根据这个CPI累计的CPI去做一个调整 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6870.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6897.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以其實我們很多國民黨籍的委員都主張一萬二調整到一萬二到一萬五之間那目前就是農業部這邊有沒有覺得一個具體的一個數字大概是多少我剛才說的我在報告裡面有提到就是每增加一千塊大概就要六十多億那我們在考慮這個額度的時候一定要考慮到我們的那個經費是否可負擔得了第二個考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6899.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6915.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
雖然說我是農業部的但是在整個政策上我也必須考慮到所有的八大社福基金的橫平性我覺得這是一定要去搞以行政團隊來講是議題的一定要討論所以我是希望說它適度的提高但不能拉得太高因為拉得太高的話會造成社會的對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6916.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6933.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
多少叫太高農業部覺得多少叫太高我認為現在委員版本的從以現在版本我們不講說還沒進來的版本以這邊的版本最高是一萬二嘛最低是不調嘛那我們的一個金額是位在這個之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6934.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6956.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
位在這個之間所以如果說後續有別的委員提出了表達1萬5的版本的時候那中間的時候可能會在1萬2變這樣一個邏輯嗎我不希望這是用喊價的部分我們一定會充分的說明其實我剛才說的每剩下1萬塊是他的財政負擔然後一個非常重要的剛才我跟張家健委員他沒有去注意去聽我講的我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6959.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6976.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
農民不是65歲是強制退休我們還會有工作根據我們現在的資訊大概有30萬還在工作所以老農今天不是他唯一的生物理據所以這個部分我們也會考慮到這個部分然後我們也會考慮到國保也會考慮到農保 勞保有沒有這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6977.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6998.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
理解我在想說其實政府對於農民的一個支持肯定是需要的所以我特別提到就是多少的金額這個部分的時候因為新竹市坦白說農民對這部分其實不一定有非常大的一個強烈的要求可是很多農業縣的一個委員確實有這樣的一個主張那我針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7000.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7022.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
公平正義的排富這個部分特別的關心所以我們希望在這部分能夠做一個非常清楚的一個規定像你們剛剛提到一個具體一萬兩千這個數字在過去十幾年當中因為土地跟房屋的一個爭執而被排除在外就是很需要我們去解決的一個問題好不好我想我們後續提出來的排富 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7023.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7046.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我蠻確信應該可以符合委員的期待OK 好那我想說接下來我想問一個狀態就是就是昨天的時候我就是有一個獨家新聞出來表示說農業部會提供續保就是農業商業保險的加額補助5%保備5%這個部分請問這個政策已經確定了嗎這應該是確定其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7052.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7074.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我上任以來我覺得農業保險過去28個品項44個保單我們過去有點說有人願意要我們開我們就開可是那個保單可能只有十幾個二十幾個甚至三十幾個人在保而已所以我希望是重視保單的品質這第一個第二個就是我希望保險是變成農民的一個習慣因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7076.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7092.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
極端天候天然災害很難預測那不是說我今年遇到很多災害明年就保險那今年沒有遇到災害明年就不保險所以我們針對持續加保的人我們給他一些誘因讓他持續的來加保 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7092.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7107.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
理解 部長基本上我支持這樣的一個狀態用那個農業商業保險的部分去cover很多我們原本很多的一個政策補助的狀態那我現在想特別去了解的狀態因為目前的時候114年我們相關的一個預算是編列是11.3億那麼115年的預算是估到11.8億那我想說這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7118.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7143.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
部分針對這個農業保險計畫這個預算當中的時候有把這個5%的這個大概1500萬要增加1500萬所以這個在經費上是可以處理的只增加1500萬是不是對不過講到這個我還是拜託委員就是總預算要趕快審我們後面很多農民總預算審的部分的時候我想行政院要尊重立法院修法過之後的狀態修成一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7144.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7172.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
更符合立法院立法通過之後的版本再送進來我想這沒有問題喔只要是行政院有尊重立法院的時候我想說我們立法院一定會秉持我們的一個職責去做最好的一個預算的一個審查我想行政院要尊重立法院這是整個憲政體制當中很重要的一個原則那行政院不可能要當行政院不可能要當皇帝想要專制想要獨裁然後又要當 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7172.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7198.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
要把立法院當成橡皮圖章 我覺得這是不可能的事情好不好謝謝部長好 謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長委員會重新公告待陳勤務委員尋討結束之後 我們再休息10分鐘接下來請呂毅林委員謝謝主席 請陳部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7205.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7226.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
部長 老農今天行之有年尤其是高齡的農民退休之後的基本生活就是我們要來做對他們做了一些保障所以跟農民的退休儲金這個制度我們雙雙都希望完善的農民的福利最重要的這個措施但是隨著物價的攀升還有現行的農民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7227.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7251.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
這個津貼的給付這個相關的金額的規定我們今天才會特別來排審這個老農津貼希望能夠符合他們生活上的需要那但是現在社會上很質疑的就是因為物價的高漲而我們的暫行條例這邊一直都沒有調漲所以希望我們能夠尊重我們的農民對他們做最好的照料那尤其是這個老農津貼在2012年的7000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7254.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7281.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
一直到現在的8,110元我們是有調整但是不符合現在的這個通貨膨脹的嚴重跟物價上漲的情形所以我們希望能夠符合他們生活需要的一個重要非常沉重的一個負擔所以今天也請教部長在這個8,110元這個一次要拉高到現在很多委員的版本那本席的提案是1萬元那有可能在至少1萬元以上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7283.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7306.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我剛才說了基本上農業部是支持這樣子額度的調高因為他的基數過往的基數比較低了一點但是調高的過程中我們在試算我們每增加1000塊所需要的經費這是第一個第二個就是說這個增幅的比例也是要能夠跟其他的八大政府基金物價指數啊物價指數的成長率嘛作為依據嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7308.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7332.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
沒有 物價指數一定會動只是再把這個額度的基數再把它拉高那這個部分我想我們方向是一致的是 部長所以講到這基數的拉高跟物價指數可以做調整的話我們也必須要有依據那尤其是我們的調整有設限在4年一次這個調整的這個週期可不可以改成2年一次或者1年一次的週期呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7333.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7349.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我想我們支持有一個期中檢討就大概是兩年來檢討一次那檢討有一個標準就是它的CPI如果大達某一個百分比就觸動這個調整那我們現在初步的一個想法就是3%到5% |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7351.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7375.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好 那這樣很好可是在調整中我們也要注意到一件事情剛剛也都提到排富條款有它的門檻就是農業以外他們的收入超過50萬的話還有第二個就是說除了他們的房子跟土地扣掉我們的農地或者是說他們的農舍以外超過500萬的話都會喪失了這個老農津貼 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7379.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7396.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那現在又因為土地會增值啊這個14年沒有改的這個門檻土地增值剛剛講的被排除在外的有一萬四一萬二這些人就是這樣子的喪失所以我們制度要與時俱進的做調整部長說是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7397.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7425.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
絕對同意就是我們也是朝這個方向就是土地公告限制這麼多年來從102年到現在一直都沒有調那沒有調的話我們希望說它可以根據土地公告限制一步到位的把它調調到符合現在的一個基準那第二個部分就是我們的所得雖然說所得是跟CPI比較有關但是我們所得也沒有跟著當初跟著額度一起調我們一直都不動所以這一次的排富我們不只是在所得上面我們會拉高 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7425.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7453.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所有的配套都要配進去不要單一這樣調整這樣子不合公平尤其現在的生活經濟的狀況跟我們的整個通膨物價高漲的情形通通要把計算進去所以我也跟委員報告其實委員提了39個版本我們都非常認真的去分析然後我們也設計了一個這樣的一個方案所以今天在這個報告其實我已經蠻正面的回應了那因為行政院現在還沒有通過院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7455.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7472.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
不適當馬上講我們的數值不過我想盡快的我希望能夠爭取行政院下個禮拜可是部長我們送進行政院已經四個月了那你也特別說到你有跟行政院做專案報告那專案報告到現在為什麼沒送出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7472.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7500.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
是什么原因我跟委员报告我跟包括院长包括政委那边报告版本是一次比一次好所以他为什么还不送出来一次比一次好那我们看看会不会更好更好那你不能一次到位的提出来我才会说我期待期待什么时候出来你一定会出来我想因为愿贵不是我决定的但是我会跟行政院争取看看你报告几次了看看你一次一次比一次好你报告几次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7501.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7517.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我至少報告三次以上三次了所以行政院版本應該要出來了嘛然後我現在已經訂案了訂案了就進到院會所以應該是年底就會進來我是期待我會再跟行政院爭取已經訂案就應該出來了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7517.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7534.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
沒有 行政院因為行政院院會排的案子很多我們希望說排進行政院院會的報告因為行政院是希望說跟其他八項社會福利的這個一起做調整才一起進來但是我們希望把這個農民的老農津貼這部分先行進來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7535.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7558.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我想院長也有曾經這樣的一個想法農民的今天也許可以先行但是考慮的時候一定要同步考慮到其他的八大社會基金但是在同步考慮的情況之下那老農今天是不是可以先行一直等到越等越久你都報告三次了也要尊重我們部長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7559.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7582.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們一直努力的讓這個案子能夠讓我們的老農做得更好那你們還沒修 已經定案了但是我們本期還是要提一下因為老農他們彎著腰 守著土地在耕作 從年輕到老我們他的生活 高齡的老農的生活我們要給他一個有尊嚴的耕好好的照料跟保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7582.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7606.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但是現在如果我們依一般的物價指數的成長率的話現在物價指數的成長率有分一般性的跟高齡的為什麼說高齡的 因為年紀比較大的他們的食物 醫療上他們的負擔會比較重比較大 對不對所以可不可以依照高齡的部分來對我們的高齡老農的津貼的部分來做調整我以這個為依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7607.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7618.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我跟委員報告你用這樣的方式又會把很多的指數搞亂那移老農我也在那個座談會我也聽到因為農民在從事 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7619.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7647.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
從事農業的時候它的所有的消費是不大一樣的跟一般的不大一樣的所以也有人認為說應該去調查農民農村的一個所得消費的一個形態那樣子可能會造成不同的版本所以我們目前還是依據就是主計處這邊的一個一般的這個CPI的方式來調整所以本席提供給你這個標準跟一般的消費跟高齡的這個家庭的消費是不一樣的指數 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7648.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7661.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這個表格都看得到對而且你要調查農村的消費是不一樣的本席提醒你是他們的食物跟醫療不一樣是跟他們生活是不同的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7662.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7677.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
沒有 我講國營那個我覺得因為65歲以上那65歲以上真正的還能夠就是非常健壯在天理工作的人其實還不少啦那相對的可能他在80幾歲70幾歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7679.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7700.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我可以發現說參加農保的人他的平均移民比一般的還高一些所以不同的年齡層又不一樣了那就很難切啦所以還是請委員支持我們現在先用一般的CPI那如果說我們後續的這些其他的CPI的依據如果更精準的時候我們再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7701.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7715.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
是 我們希望我們的修法能夠更完善每個層級每個狀況都要考慮進去這樣的配套修出來法才會讓大家都能夠覺得對他們有能夠幫助好不好最重要保障我們農民的生活謝謝接下來請陳秦威委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7727.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7733.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
非常感謝主席我會遵守時間先請勞保局陳白局長白局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7742.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7765.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
謝謝 局長上週五我們在新聞上有看到1219中山區的隨機傷人事件對全台灣人來說都是非常大的衝擊也非常的疼痛那這次的隨機傷人事件我去調查了一下時間是發生在下午的5點左右當時剛好是準備下班的時間那我希望勞保局可以針對這些受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7765.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7783.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
還有他們的家屬提供必要的協助包含勞保勤領的行政流程我們是不是可以加速或者是你用專案的方式來處理一同來整理這些所有相關的相關的受害者還有家屬等等請問這個您做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7784.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7810.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
是跟委員這邊做報告委員剛才所提的這個我們一定遵照辦理那也做一個補充就是我們已經有跟台北市政府消防局這邊取得了受傷者傷亡的一個名單那他們的家保狀況目前都有掌握後續我們也會積極跟他們的家屬來做聯繫那提供一個在行政流程上面的一個協助好那可以一週內跟您要這個報告嗎委員就我們就後續的一個處理情形我們再跟委員這邊做報告好大概多久以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7811.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7833.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為這個我們要跟我們先就後續他們的權益因為這個會涉及個案部分那是不是給我們一個作業時間大概我們先就一個他們涉及的權益部分一周內先跟委員這邊做說明那可能個案的一個狀況因為他是保險給付的申請所以會涉及他們在給付上面申請的一個相關流程那這可能不見得是一個禮拜可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7834.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7841.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好那我們大概兩個禮拜再跟局長要這個答覆好嗎是好謝謝局長局長請回那接下來請陳俊記部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7848.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7871.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
部長我們看這個新聞是有說美國的國務院官員有來台灣那據我私底下的了解也確實有部會接觸報載是說他見了好多的官員其中就包含農業部那我是想請問您有沒有辦法對這件事情給全國人民一個消息您是不是有見到有或是沒有還是您是沒有辦法沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7872.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7894.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
你沒有見到我沒有見到他們沒有來拜會應該不是我們沒有見到應該他們沒來拜會那最後這幾次因為上次距離談判關稅的質詢已經是好幾個月之前了當時我們還認為我們是在前面的名單可是很顯然我們現在可能已經是全球倒數的談判名單但是幾乎是快談完了是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7895.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7910.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我想後面一點不代表不好啦因為有更多的這些細節現在大概都已經確定了那我們應該可以樂觀以對的去針對因為我想我們的談判團隊 農業部是參與有參與這個談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7912.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7930.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們有派人 農業部有派人我們有參與我們有參與所有的談判過程那我們也一直堅守的我們當初對國人所說的我們在確保糧食安全的情況之下我們一定會讓我們的產業永續發展維持我們的競爭力那這個前提之下我們持續去爭取我們應該有的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7931.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7952.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
但還是有很多農民有擔心啦因為比如說像這張圖就是許多農民顯示他們的心境嘛他擔心美國的大米進口台灣的好米會失去競爭力那我想知道說部長你應該也有看過這本嗎這本是美國對全世界各國的貿易作出報告以及包括對台灣的指教這個你應該知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7953.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7975.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個我知道所以您要不要說說看在2025年美國的這本貿易報告裡面關於台灣的部分提到哪些跟您跟農產品比較有關係的事物呢我想第一個部分有關於這邊提到台灣稻米的這個價格的上限機制我覺得他講的是一個底價的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7976.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8001.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是相對的因為我們國家有我們國家的一個對外的採購有沒有採購的一個機制那分兩個一個是最低的底價往上加價高的得一個是越低越好有兩個不同的機制那過往其實這個議題在台美雙邊的諮商的時候都一直談過然後我們也讓他們充分了解我們的定價的一個機制所以在這個部分大概沒有什麼特別問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8002.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8017.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那以基改跟非基改的部分那基本上我們相關的基改食品一定經過衛福部的一個安全檢查但是以農業部的立場我們到目前為止還沒有同意任何一個基改產品在台灣的田裡種植這個政策是不會變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8018.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8039.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
然後有關於美豬美牛的部分那基本上產地標示就是原來的產地標示那這個部分是屬於衛福部的一個全責的部分那我想衛福部應該會有一個比較好的一個對外的一個說明特別是不管是萊克多巴胺也好我們現在目前公告的這個MRL的值都是符合安全標準的 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8040.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8054.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好那我做一個統整第一你有談判到大米嗎對吧沒有聽起來你有應該所有的農產品都有談所有的農產品不是只有大米所有的農產品然後對於標示這部分剛剛你所說的你是不會退讓對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8055.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8077.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
你還是會繼續標示我說標示的部分是衛福部的全責因為我們農業部是負責產地的部分好那關於萊劑跟以行受體素的管制這個你也說是衛福部的全責對嗎對那我剛才只強調說現在目前我們公告的萊劑跟相關的這個標準都是符合食品安全規範的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8078.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8087.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因为像美牛的部分也是很多燃气的部分这本书里面他还提到关于农药的残留的允许值这一点你们有谈到吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8088.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8112.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我想我剛才說的我們在談判的過程中包括了關稅的議題也包括非關稅的議題嘛然後他們談該面都非常非常非常多元這本書裡面講的大部分都是非關稅的貿易壁壘所以我剛提的都是非關稅的貿易壁壘所以那個農藥的部分其實在平常的雙邊的會議就一直會在談這個議題所以它不是一個突然跑出來的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8113.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8119.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好但是這本裡面都是要求你們要放寬等等的所以我要問的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8121.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8143.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我不了解因為我沒有很實際的去逐筆的逐頁去看這本報告裡面但是我所了解就是所有的這些農藥的殘留我們有我們的標準所以進口是依照我們的標準去處理的所以你的標準會不會有改變這個是你要告訴我們針對農藥的部分我所了解應該是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8144.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8164.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
好那再來呢這個就是大家對於你們出去談判可能覺得會有很大的影響的你覺得最大的影響會是什麼我想我們因為在整個談判結果最後沒有公佈之前我想我們只能說我們還是捍衛著我們的糧食安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8166.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8189.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那我跟你說現在當然第一擔心的是稻米嘛第二再來是豬肉第三是雞肉的畜牧業也是緊張的不得了那為什麼本席今天需要跟你討論是因為我上次在這邊質詢的時候我是問衛福部的官員那當然現在他已經卸任了可是他當時答應我的是會以國人的安全為最高的指導原則因為您剛有提到他們是負責去做茶場的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8191.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8215.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那為什麼要講這些呢是因為我們每次都是從新聞看到可是比如說之前的石破茂他在每次談判的前後都會跟國人開記者會包括談什麼回來跟國會報告並且他上節目NHK就說到食安的問題是不可以妥協的啊等等的那我們會希望說而不是一個突襲式的宣布這點你可以同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8215.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8236.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
波向所有的談判沒有人在談判過程中隨時去洩露我們的底線那我想我們在談判的一個最大原則一定是保護農民權益確保我們糧食安全跟我們的產業永續這個絕對不會變的所以你剛才講的不管是大米不管是豬肉不管是雞肉我想我們應該對臺灣的農產品要有更多的信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8237.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8255.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們曾經在WTO的時候也擔心了好一陣子可是從上次加入WTO到現在我們的整個農業的GDP也提高了非常多部長我們就是希望你不要突然的宣布對農民的一個改變好不好然後接下來要問就剛剛有很多人提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8256.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8277.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
老年農民福利津貼暫行條例本期現在是要跟你討論他的名稱啦因為這個制度早就已經不是暫時的安排他已經實行超過30年並且他給付的對象啊資格啊行政流程都非常的穩定之前法律名稱用暫時只是因為只是因為當時制度尚未成熟條件還沒有明確那 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8278.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8296.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
現在呢農民他需要的是一個穩定可以預期的生活保障而不是在一個名稱上暗示隨時有可能結束的法律那也有很多學者提到是不是可以來定位他改變他的名稱在這邊想要問部長有沒有想過要改名刪除戰刑這兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8297.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8323.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
不過我想我們會配合國家的年金改革委員會的一些相關的一個決議因為暫行其實多這兩個字不會因為這兩個字就對農民就不照顧了那是在法律的位階上面來講那我想這個部分我想因為國家有個年金改革委員會的部分我想會充分的討論然後如果說他需要改革我覺得我們也樂意配合好那你可以一個月給我們一個書面答覆嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8325.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8344.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這個因為責任 不是就是我們沒辦法說決定說要改或不改因為這是牽涉到整個社福基金的國進改革的一個委員會裡面的一個決議那如果說有適當的決議或者是其他的部分但是我們也支持把這個戰情拿掉啦好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8379.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8387.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
對,你怎麼知道? |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8407.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8408.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9084.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9086.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好 我們繼續開會 接下來請張宏祿委員來做詢問我請陳部長來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9110.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9133.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
來 部長今天大家在討論老農津貼但我想先請問一下我們農民退休儲金現在它的普及率高不高如果以實際可以參加的22萬多人的話現在普及率大概4成那如果包括曾經領過的話已經高達5成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9136.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9160.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
但是最重要的是年輕的人他的比例比較低所以這是我們退休儲金修改的時候的一個重點希望說能夠提高一些誘因讓年輕的這些農民能夠參加退休儲金那現在現行的退休儲金是不是每個月繳每個月繳但是可以六個月之內可以補繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9162.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9189.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
六個月之內可以補繳當你的規定還是每個月繳吧對基本上是每個月繳對嘛你講的是六個月內補繳嘛那是補繳嘛對不對部長我們以前念書都有說春耕秋收東藏我們種田的人有每個月有收入嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9191.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9209.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
要看你種什麼作物欸 種什麼作物每個月有收入蔬菜蔬菜 蔬菜一個月以上吧沒有 蔬菜有的快的話三個禮拜到四個禮拜你是說空心菜吧沒有 所以我說蔬菜類嘛短期葉菜類 應該是短期葉菜類好 那種蔬菜的占多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9210.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9229.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個我可能要查一下而且種蔬菜的他每個月如果這個月遇到有水患 水災或什麼他有沒有收成所以我們才會再設計說如果說你沒有辦法每個月繳的話你六個月之內的話你可以補繳有這樣的一個機制沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9232.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9241.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你說有這個機制 六個月補繳我覺得 我一開始就覺得每個月都要繳我不一定有錢繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9244.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9262.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
你有沒有覺得這個是這個不普及一個很大的原因不過其實我們在座談會倒是沒有農民提出這個因為我們有設計一個六個月也可以繳的情況之下他們大概對這個議題比較沒有太大的一個反應如果六個月他還是沒錢繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9264.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9275.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那就沒了嘛就中斷對啊那種田的啦比如說我種水果的我可能一年才一收是不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9280.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9306.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
不過我問你要種水果是不是一年一收我想這個邏輯不大必須釐清不是不對 必須釐清因為他不可能說他一年收了以後但一年收了以後他收到一筆錢他可以每個月分配到他的生活費什麼不可能說他收了一次一天就花光所以他一年一收但是他所收的這些利潤他可以維持他一年之中的一個生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9308.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9337.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他一定這一年一定有收嗎如果颱風來他有得收嗎這要看那個颱風的情況啦你就回答我嘛種水果是不是一年一收嘛對 一年一收啊 對嘛我小時候我們都在種水果的啊我們在種奶汁的啊如果剛好八年多 我跟你講那年年少就沒了 要去跟人家借錢你知道嗎借錢過一季你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9341.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9361.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我了解很多農民會遇到這種情況我跟委員報告其實農業的經營量也非常多然後特別是有這種多年生的果樹的部分一年一收但是他收完以後的收入他會做一年度的分配他不可能完全不分配我跟你講分配是一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9364.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9378.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
以前 古早時代 我就沒有了 我要先去跟人家寫去集會店 去店裡 先寫 我修成了 我就行李了有沒有這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9379.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9398.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
以前啦以前有現在是沒得記帳啦但可能要跟親朋好友啊沒有 現在的部分也有一些特別是像肥料的部分他們也是特別是有器做的部分他們也是你不要講器做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9399.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9418.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我現在就跟你講會不會有我說的這些問題但是那個比例不高有沒有有嘛你也承認有嘛對不對那你如果承認有的情況之下你說我六個月了我沒有腳就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9419.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9448.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
很多人會因為這樣而卻步那我們呢你看喔我們比如說勞工保險他也可以申請他幾個月三個月或六個月或怎樣繳一次對不對那我們對於這些農民我們可不可以也讓他不要每個月我們也可以放寬他也可以申請他比如說半年繳一次或是一年繳一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9450.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9463.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
也沒有思考過這個方向不過委員的建議我想我們可以很仔細的去思考就是讓他一段時間繳一次但是也不能無限的啦當然啦我沒有要求我剛講的沒有無限 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9466.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9488.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我願意回來請我們的同仁去做一個規劃看看可不可以除了現在每個月繳可以延半年以外是不是可以說你可以申請或者是三個月六個月然後最多一年之內一定要繳用這樣的方式我願意請同仁來做一個更仔細的評估我覺得需要這樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9488.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9514.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
就我所理解的很多人是為了每個月繳他卻不 有哪兩種人一個比較年輕的 我才要剛回來我才要剛開始做我每個月 這我他其他的生活負擔也有那有的是比較年紀大的他本來對這個就不了解他又想說我每個月又沒有固定的收入我每個月固定要繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9516.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9540.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這個讓大家有一些就是不敢就去做因為它變成它每個月有一些負擔當然以政府的立場來講我政府也幫你出這個是一個很好的政策但一個很好的政策我覺得我們要實際上真正務農人他的收入情況我們要去考量尤其如果有遇到紮開或什麼他那一年搞不好還賠錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9542.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9562.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
不過總結一句只要能夠提高他們的覆蓋率的任何的方法農業部會一定盡可能的去做調整這個部分我想我可以這樣子的承諾好 所以我說的你如果可以不要每個月繳讓他們可以申請什麼的你們會回去研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9563.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9585.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
對 我們一定會回去研究如果可行的話我們就會來做我覺得一定可行你們去研究看看這個其他的保險其他的什麼也都有這樣做了不是憑空而來的我們為了我們的農民我覺得應該要這樣子做你們回去好好的評估一下可以好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9590.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9600.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好謝謝接下來請盧縣議委來做詢問謝謝有請部長有請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9606.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9626.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
喂部長辛苦了因為今天一直在重複同樣的問題那我還是想從我們的八千一百一十塊這個基數來談我們從民國八十四年開始三千塊一直到現在的八千一百一十塊那你覺得在世界的水準是大概是多少全世界的水準你在看的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9627.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9655.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我想全世界水準本身就要看看說它的國家有沒有像類似這樣的一個福利的制度我剛剛查了一下美國大概目前是19000塊可是他們的制度不是 那個瑞士最高19000塊 美國大概是10000塊當然我們是優於日韓我在看的時候可是剛才你現在有一點點口誤就是說每增加1000塊的話應該是如果現行是54萬人的話應該是5.4億沒有 一年12個月OK 一年12個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9656.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9661.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那我們再看的話 有最低的生活費大概在全台灣是多少錢 知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9663.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9687.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
根據剛才委員好像是一萬五千多台北市的話是兩萬所以八千一百一十塊我看如果是老人家的話一天的餐費大概就差不多了更不用說他要去做高鐵或是付水電費這些的費用我是覺得說這個八千一百一十塊確實是有需要調整你覺得到多少你覺得比較合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9688.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9711.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
不過我想我們在考慮這個額度的調整有幾個因素第一個因素就是說我們也認同現在的基數比較低跟現在的事業生活的一個水平是有一些差距但是我們也考慮到就是因為農業的經營比較特殊他不是65歲是完全沒工作像以農保的85萬裡面那將近有60萬將近有60萬是65歲以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9714.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9731.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那實際從農者也大概有30萬將近30萬是超過65歲的所以表示說他不只是單純這個8110塊當作他的唯一的一個生活的支出他也可以自己再從事相關的農業去得到他的這個所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9731.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9759.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那個也是我們考慮的那我們再看那個就是最近在比較是勞農津貼跟那個勞退的那個金我是覺得一直很不公平就是說為什麼要拿三十年後的一個金額跟現在的勞工領了三萬三來做比較你覺得你有沒有在做一個詮釋或者是解釋的部分三十年後才會領到三萬八千四百七十九塊那為什麼一直在現在輿論以上都是在比三萬八跟現在的三萬三 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9760.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9788.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
不過我要跟委員報告就是我們對農民的退休後的生活的保障大概用我們的老農津貼當作基底然後我們也提出了一個農民退休儲金的部分去做一個堆疊式的我的意思是說這個38000是30年後對不對對 30年後這個老保的3300030年後誰知道是不是33000是不是更高不是 我們都是用同樣的推估來算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9789.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9813.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那他們會認為說老農領的比較多不過你應該是要比的話應該是自體的儲金的比例對 應該是退休歸退休然後津貼歸津貼但是津貼的部分像勞保的部分的老年給付他每個月所繳的金額跟農民所繳的78塊他也有差那國民年金的話他一個月也繳了1250塊左右所以基本上這些給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9814.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9836.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
也要去檢視他的每個月的就是繳的這個金額來計算那現在的覆蓋率是41%左右然後年輕人是30%那我看到你們的那個計畫就說你們對農業的經營的準備金有給他們兩年大概72萬左右對 一年36萬對 那有多少人來申請這個錢那誘因是怎麼樣 為什麼不能提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9837.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9864.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
不過我想我們為了這是我想農業從事農業的唯一的沒有一個行業說他退休以後只要從事那個行業就一個月相當於一個月有3萬塊這是只有農業從事農的部分那這個部分現在目前大概覆蓋率可以領到大概900多人然後已經在領的大概來申請這個方案的話大概是39%左右大概將近4成 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9864.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9878.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以說也有增加的一個比例對那我們再看說國民黨的版本是一萬五民進黨是一萬二那你覺得合理的大概是多少錢不過我剛才說的就是我考慮的第一個因素就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9879.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9907.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
本身基數跟現在的物價指數這是一個關係第二個就是說我們也考慮他過往的提繳的金額嘛跟其他的因為最重要的是以行政的團隊一體的角度來講我們考慮農民老農經貞的時候也會同時考慮你們說版本差不多已經確定了嗎對確定了大概是落在我們是落在所有的委員的上下線中間所以不知道你還不能公佈答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9908.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9937.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
因為政院沒有核定沒有通過院會我們是不能對外說明的那我們是期待然後能夠把這個弱勢就是說能夠反映我們的物價指數那現在的外食的那個比例又這麼高我們現在的消費指數又這麼高我是覺得當然如果折衷一萬三一萬四當然是樂見那我們再看我們原住民的部分我想知道排富你剛才說排富到一萬兩千一萬兩千人左右那原住民有沒有被排富的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9938.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9961.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
原住民有沒有被排富的沒有沒有統計這個部分是沒有統計還是不知道沒有統計我們沒有把它分我是希望知道有一個這個我想我們可以來了解那一直在排富的話就是大概我們現在是500萬嘛那麼現在的房子很容易就超過500萬我們現在大部分的委員是鐵道800萬以上到1000萬你覺得合理的數字大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9962.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9981.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我相信我們後續提出來的版本應該在委員會應該可以被接受OK好那我們現在有個提到一個重點就是原住民的部分能不能降低到55歲的情侶就是因為我們的平均移民的問題可是每次提到這樣的一個公平性的時候會覺得說很像不能用族群來看那你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9983.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9998.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
不過我想我們在考慮特別是剛才我也了解原住民委員會在他們的報告裡面有講到他們有統計到原住民的全體的愚民比全國還低可是當我在處理老農津貼的時候我的族群是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9999.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10021.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
从事农业这些老农津贴的人的余命这个余命是比较高的可以更细致一点比如说他确实是从事农业然后他的男性的比例平均是82岁那我的意思是说可以就更细致来细分的时候我是觉得从实际的那个年龄的差距去算这样可以更 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10022.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10044.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
可以更說服國人說我們原住民的平均愚民在農人的時候是大概是多少我們才可以更精緻來算說大概是幾歲可以提前這樣子對 我跟委員稍微說明我們現在目前統計的就是我沒有分男女的部分就是65歲零老農津貼的這些人的平均愚民是82.7歲他比全國的80.8歲還高 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10046.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10071.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以我也謝謝委員的提醒我們後續會去更細分男的女的還有從65歲可能每5年每10年當作一個層級去做這樣的資訊讓我們的所有的原住民朋友們了解我們並沒有歧視他們我們只是用比較全國性的一致的標準去處理那謝謝部長用更細緻的方式來計算我們平均與命那謝謝你的努力 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10078.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10081.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
謝謝 接下來請王育敏委員來做詢答謝謝主席 我們是不是有請陳部長來 請部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10096.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10122.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
部長好 我想今天呢跨黨派的委員大家都關心老農福利津貼要調整還有排附這個議題主要是我覺得大家已經看見了就是說農民在台灣他們其實他們的工作我只能講相對辛苦像我最近比較常跑這個嘉義縣我看到很多的這個老人家為什麼他這麼辛苦他年紀這麼大他還需要繼續從農 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10124.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10140.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
因為他需要靠從農再多增加收入他才可以維持他的生活像最近這個高麗菜我自己也去認購了三千顆高麗菜因為產區他的高麗菜他種一顆就是可能沒有辦法十塊錢這樣的價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10141.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10157.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
甚至他連這個去請人家來這個收割然後這個工錢都賣了所以就是說從容的人我覺得他們的這個收入是呈現在一個不穩定有可能有好的時候但是呢壞的時候你看像這個高麗菜 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10158.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10180.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這個整個就是大家血本無歸啊就是那個不敷成本啊那另外不要講說天災這次的丹納斯風災在整個嘉義地區也造成重創我們看到的就是從農的人真的是奇產無比有的是即使是溫室的你種這個哈密瓜溫室的那個整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10181.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10195.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
全部也掀翻你溫室種蔬菜的也掀翻然後漁民的損失也是然後你即使是種植蘭花我看了很心疼我們有那個是青農他很用心的栽培蘭花結果他整個這個整個颱風這麼大他說他種植的蘭花 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10201.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10222.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
血本無歸啊整個都把他掀掉了他那一些遇災的那些場所通通都被摧毀了所以今天為什麼是跨黨派大家在這邊呢就是持續要幫這些老農來爭取因為他們的這個工作的環境他所面臨到天然災害的挑戰坦白講他比老公 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10222.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10237.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
比軍公教是高很多他真的就是看天在吃飯所以一個風災來可能會讓他這個損失非常大這個也是為什麼我看到我們現在雖然政府有很多的獎勵措施我們在鼓勵青年返鄉從農 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10238.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10261.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但是坦白講那個速度跟這個老農已經老化沒有回來的速度這個是沒有辦法接上你從你自己這個領這個老農津貼的人數其實就可以看到我們老農津貼領的人數2007年還有六七點八萬人口但是你是呈現逐年下降最新的是一月的你們的數字是五十萬兩千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10262.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10290.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
等於說這個林老農今天的人口從2007年到現在呢他少了兩成五也就是你沒有一直補上來就是沒有一直補上來這個是我們看到的一個現況那這個就是今天為什麼要討論就剛剛我有聽到部長在講當然從政府的角度你會從這個公平性去橫評會去考量到其他的類別但是我要提醒部長是除了公平性之外你也要看到這個行業的特殊性 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10291.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10301.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那我們國家的政策就是我們到底需不希望台灣的農業持續發展我想應該是希望吧做一個農業部部長應該希望吧永續的發展對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10304.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10328.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對 所以要永續發展你就必須有持續的這個青年人願意投入這個行業那你要讓他投入這個行業你就要讓他知道說投入這個行業雖然他過程是辛苦的 風險性也高但是政府在相關制度的設計上我會讓你在65歲退休的時候是可以得到一個相對安穩的保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10328.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10352.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
如果政府有這樣的一個誘因我覺得也可以讓年輕人看到一些希望不會說我會擔心我在從農的過程當中我可能起起伏伏最後如果我可能總結下來我沒有剩餘但是至少政府會照顧我政府所累加起來的你們現在的雙重疊加的這個制度會讓我得到基本的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10353.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10378.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我覺得這個是我們應該要去追求的從這邊來討論就是看到它的特殊性還有我們整體政策我們希望永續農業所以有一些政府一定要出的比較多這個的合理性就會出來但是如果這些撇開不看就是直接去比較勞工當然大家就會覺得說為什麼是這樣但是大家沒有看到農民他承擔的風險比其他的職業其實來得更高而且他是要自行吸收 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10381.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10406.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
然後又兼勞工然後迎虧自負就是這樣子然後受到天氣變化的這個程度又很高所以我們今天討論這個我覺得那個背景其實可能要再看得更清晰一點那現在我擔心的就是你們現在推的這個農退儲金覆蓋率其實整體加起來不到三成這樣一個情況他其實就是在反映為什麼年輕人不太願意他猶豫 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10407.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10435.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為他不確定他要不要從農到老他可能會有那個猶豫對不對不過我跟委員修正一個資訊就是目前的退休儲金達到多少已經將近42%那如果連包括已經領過的已經將近五成了但是年輕的部分大概就是二十幾到三十左右這也是我們要努力的目標這個就是我要跟你講的年輕人如果你讓他覺得說好你從農然後你65歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10437.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10456.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
就是可以做到65歲退休的時候政府給你的保障是讓他看起來覺得是很安穩的我覺得會鼓勵他們的信心所以這個剛剛我也聽到你有在提到說這個農退儲金只要可以去提高他的這個參與率你們都會往這個方向前進 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10457.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10481.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
甚至於我會設計你只要參加退休儲金我的所有農業政策的補貼可以加碼因為我們也看到了他們過往都有很多都是為了他的基礎設施包括溫室包括一些系統都要自己付錢所以我把這個提高的時候他對他們的誘因更大所以除了鼓勵他們任何的一個方式我們都願意來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10482.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10509.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好我覺得這個部分的確是應該要去增加的然後你們提到的這個所以第一個就是說那個津貼的金額也應該要增加因為如果我們農民他是一個比較特殊的工作的話這個我要跟你討論的就是到底我們現在的這個暫行條例今天在未還委員會審結果都是我們農業部部長在回答大家沒有覺得很奇怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10511.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10523.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
他的属性是什么我现在要问你也就是说老年农民福利津贴他是社会福利还是应该是他退休金补充的一环是社会福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10524.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10541.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
是社會福利 對是社會福利喔但是其實在你們今天的報告裡面你們第一頁自己就提到了就是說農保沒有老年給付項目所以政府為了照顧農民晚年生活增進農民福祉才搬行的這個暫行條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10542.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10555.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
你提到的是沒有老年那是84年的時候還沒有這個條例的時候是沒有所以我們才會設計一個這樣的一個條例來類似其實我覺得到現在真的到了檢討的時候了當時用了一個暫行這兩個字一施行從民國84年到現在就是30年我想沒有任何一個暫行可以實施這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10567.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10591.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
暫行就是一個落日條款他是要一個接軌制度的但是現在如果以農業部告訴大家的到最後一頁到農業部告訴大家的我們是一個疊加的概念事實上你這個老農福利津貼他是第一層你要往上加的是農民退休儲金他是第二層那如果是在這樣的一個疊加的概念底下你這一層不能拿掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10592.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10615.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
你應該是常態化的施行 沒有暫行這兩個字津貼應該就變成是你的第一層它是要持續性穩定的發放才對 是不是同意所以我第一個建議就是老年農民津貼沒有暫行這兩個字暫行應該就直接拿掉它必須是個永久性的措施才會符合你們的1加1這樣的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10616.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10641.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
第二個他到底是退休金的補充還是是一個福利津貼我覺得要重新定義如果以這個農業部你們自己對外講的你們畫的這個圖事實上他就是個退休金的補充他是1加1的概念就是你有第一層最穩定的保障然後再加上退休儲金看繳多少繳多久再加上來應該是這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10642.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10667.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以這個如果一直用福利這樣的一個概念我覺得會跟其他的過去我們在談這個都說八大社福津貼大家是連動的所以你才用四年的CPI但是我個人認為應該是脫鉤他其實跟八大社福津貼的屬性又不太一樣而今天其實我們也看到了整場委員會的質詢衛福部部長有在嗎沒在啊次長也不在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10667.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10685.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
最關鍵的事實上還是農業部因為就是這些農民是你主要要服務的對象農保然後加上這個退休儲金也是你們現在在規劃所以我認為這整個屬性大家應該要從頭來思考了當時可能是用一個比較緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10687.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10710.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
就是說當時的立委是比較快速的提出來然後他也只是真的只是一個很短暫的3000塊的就是很少的真的是一個福利津貼性質但是到現在大家在討論的他必須能因應他的老年生活他必須能滿足就是他基本的開銷部長你是不是應該回去重新檢討思考他還是只是一個福利津貼性質嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10711.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10739.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我第一個跟委員報告就是我們堆疊式的設計是為了確保農民退休後的生活保障是所以是退休後的生活保障對那一個部分是用福利的制度去處理一個部分是用退休金的方式去處理的部分所以你可以看到84年開始的一個基數那時候都還沒有CPI都是在歷次的立法委員這邊的爭取之下來提高的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10739.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10767.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那後來在100年開始我們才導入一個比較正式的一個CPI的指數那我也願意就是說像我會問法治一下因為暫行拿掉跟不拿掉它的法律效益到底差在哪邊那如果能夠當作一個正式的條例當然以我農業部旅長當然是最好那我必須考慮到法治面是不是可以這樣直接拿掉這個我想容我後續我的建議就是正式化因為你寫暫行兩個字農民就想說哪一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10768.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10788.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
不實施了 暫停就是這個意思嘛如果要常態實施的 我想就沒有暫停不過我想我們再從法律的位階來講不會說今天就不玩了我知道 但是名稱就是名實相符嘛我的立場是如果能夠拿掉如果在法制上沒有什麼特別問題的話我也願意我想他應該就要變成是一個常態性的措施了好 謝謝好 謝謝翁議員 謝謝部長接下來請鄭天才委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10808.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10830.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
主席 各位委員 有請部長來 請陳部長館長好部長好這個有關老農津貼暫行條例事實上這個實施已經30年了到今年正好是30年了等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10838.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10859.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
不好意思好這個30年所以本席在去年3月13號去年3月13號就提出來要把這個暫行 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10861.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10882.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這兩個字既然已經實施40年了到去年是39了到今年正好是30年所以這個部分這個一定要拿掉這是第一個第二個在法制面沒有問題法制面沒有問題當初之所以加戰刑就是暫時的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10885.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10909.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
十十幾年就可以不要了採用暫行那現在既然已經要繼續實施了也不會停了除非廢止除非廢止所以這個在法制面沒有問題所以大家有這個共識好我們看這個原住民原住民的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10911.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10940.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
年齡 刚才部长也做了一些回应事实上如果我们从其他的法例国民年金法年住民就是55岁然后呢公务人员退休之前府系法公务人员年住民年住民55岁55岁这个公立学校教职员退休之前府系条例 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10941.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10967.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
原住民也是55岁之所以会这样子定就是因为原住民与非原住民的这个平均移民有真的很有确实有这个确实有这个落差所以当然部长又会用上次回应的刚才你也回应了就说这个事实上 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10969.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10988.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
从事农业的基本上它的余命比较高所以因为我们在处理老农津贴所以一定要用这个族群来看这个我知道你有讲过事实上如果仔细分析其实不是这样我们可以另外在主条的时候再讨论好 我们看这个老农津贴啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10989.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11015.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
他這個基於職業屬性的一個福利基金 你們說這個不宜再針對不同族群而有不同的一個規範這個而延民會今天的報告就說這個提案反對原住民族權利有提升者本會 就是延民會競表贊同這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11017.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11034.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這個我剛有講如果從我們的平均移民確實有這個落差剛才那個表是三地原住民跟平地原住民平均的一個表如果是三地原住民那個差距更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11036.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11063.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這是以全部的原住民當作統計的母數那我剛才說的如果是以從事農業領老農津貼的這個當作母數的話它是比全國的漁民還高不是 那個你這樣的一個計算是因為 不是 不是那個部長 你要去計算的話你要先從不是從老農津貼因為老農津貼幾歲開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11065.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11090.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
65岁啊对嘛是因为65岁计算的时候可以老农金农民退出租金的但是如果你从这个年轻的时候开始算农民年轻的时候你永远不知道他什么时候过往对就是所以从事农业的部分只能说从事农业的已经在领老农津贴的这个族群去算 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11093.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11117.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這個如果你從農民農民整個原住民的農民跟全國的農民的平均移民你去比較的話你就不會你就會改變你的想法不然的話為什麼國民年金法會這樣子制定為什麼這個公務人員的教職員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11118.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11134.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
確實是這樣 確實是如此所以這個部分就是有很多繳了之後以公務人員來講他每個月繳提撥儲金結果他還沒有55歲還沒有65歲他就離開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11140.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11165.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
所以才會去降低才會有這樣的一個規劃我不瞭解其他的其他的那些條文裡面55歲的部分的立法的原因啦不知道以農業部來講我們還是用從事農業的這個族群去計算所以當然所以他的餘命是比較高的所以要以從事農業然後要以所有的族群非原住民從事農業他幾歲開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11168.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11185.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
然後到整個 對啊 我們就是這樣因為從事農業你有領老農 表示你有加農保然後有領老農津貼的部分他的餘命就是82點多歲嘛好 這個部分這個園民會一直想要說明要說明嗎好 請來 副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11197.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11213.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我説明一下就是這個其實也是衛福部在112年提出的說法就是因為針對老農津貼的部分行政院跟都有邀請各部會來討論過我們剛剛部長所講的部分是從112年的報告來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11220.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11249.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那個衛福部的原住民勤領那個老農津貼的部分是82.9歲然後剛剛部長意思就是說那個是高於那個非原民的勤領的部分其實從報告上來看衛福部講的是他是82原住民勤領的平均年齡82.9歲是高於全體國人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11249.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11265.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
平均餘命也就是他並不是跟非原名的老農來去做比較如果我們用那個老農來比較的話65歲以下的那個原名的秦嶺的平均餘命跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11266.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11281.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
跟非原民的老農來比較的話其實原民的老農是平均餘命是低於3.3歲那如果我們是就所有的農保的那個投保人數來算的話那那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11284.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11305.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
原民的老農的那個平均原命是跟非原民的差到5.5歲這是111年的一個數據好 再把這個書面的資料再提供給我好不好這個部分我們希望能夠做非常明確的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11307.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11318.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
好 因為時間的關係 因為我還要去財政委員會去質詢 就到這邊好 謝謝 謝謝政委 謝謝部長好 接下來請丁學忠委來做詢問好 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11335.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11339.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好 謝謝部長好 感謝教委 感謝我們黨國教學委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11352.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11359.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
請問我們知道70幾年以來台灣的物價上漲基本生活上的改善越來越大因為整個勞農津貼的制度有對付到現實生活身分的問題身分的問題跟我們現在處理的勞農津貼不是完全對等的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11380.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11383.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好 沒關係來 我們這個勞動金條已經開罐了我們就在十幾年前我們開學有假的基礎有調整過這個機制九五前去到大概假期一百多塊不已經一百十塊假期一百十塊當這十四年來租假種植的消費者有假的基礎已經累積上漲將近兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11411.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11431.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
請問我們這個國庭 先有先人 現行的經貼經驗已經過發到幾乎老農最基金的這個生活 我說幾千幾百十個我跟委員報告 我們的福利制度裡面所提出來的八千一百一十塊絕對不是讓老農就可以去 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11433.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11462.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
完全去做過很好的生活它只是一個福利制度裡面一個政府對老農的一個照顧那第二個部分就是說我們農民沒有65歲就退休了有非常非常多的將近30萬的農民65歲還繼續工作所以他可以繼續從事農業的這些所得再加上政府對農民的一個照顧這樣的話就能夠讓他的退休以後的生活特別是我們現在又推動退休儲金嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11462.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11468.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那未來的年輕人他退休以後可以領到應該三萬九千多塊好 南中啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11470.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11478.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
將對我們老人經常號稱有貴額物價指數的挑戰的世界但實際上十四年來只有三個條件以前每個條件的幅度只有幾百塊對於沒有其他退休年金也沒有穩定的修律的老人來說這樣的經濟將要求喪失 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11497.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11520.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我跟委員報告 你剛才說的說我們現在的物價一直漲高嘛我們的物價的標漲會反映在我們的CPI所以我們過去80年開始 應該100年開始那個調整都是根據CPI下去調整的所以這個物價的上漲大概可以用CPI去處理現在比較大的問題就是我們的基數比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11521.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11538.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們的基數比較低的時候造成我們現在剩下一百十塊而已所以農業部也是希望說可以把這個基數再往上調一些那至於調多少會根據我們的財政的負擔會去做估計 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11539.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11543.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
在這裡跟國庭學校講講我們這裡的牢籠年紀怎麼那麼大拖累、衰退當沒辦法去做事這裡後一年也沒有老人地方來做事中國的護照廟做事也沒有其他修理這裡的牢籠是越來越多我們都被公共調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11564.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11574.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
當這尿流氓菌條裡面有多少人是因為這尿流氓菌條裏面做外殼的位置或是主要的生物的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11575.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11603.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們現在沒有這個調查因為基本上我剛才說的農民退休以後政府給他一些厚利的金錢他本身他也有一些人他繼續在做農業有些人他如果沒有做的時候他的後代、他的屍髓也會來奉養所以基本上不是唯一靠這個8110來生存的 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11604.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11610.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我還要再告訴你們一件事當我生在我們墳林海上我們五姓以上的徒弟都在做事我經常去到我們增開的地方經常看到是大人、野怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11621.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11631.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
兩隻腳的骨輪都去換人工的還有一隻四腳骨要去送那副養宿載我在問他們為什麼會受傷這樣他們說這就是從小做事做到老所帶來的傷痕所以我們世界我們這些農民他們的辛苦付出 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11648.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11659.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
這是第一次我們來臨黨我在這裡跟國長各個請說我們要求提出勞動警察提為今過程一百二十個一屆提告到委員會一萬兩千個國長希望你要理解你要理解這不是嫁給我的福林是一次性反映這十幾年來累積 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11678.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11689.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
其實通訪的基要性的這個條件其實這是等於制度人群照顧基群生活的水準這樣 看你有沒有認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11691.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11711.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我基本上 我剛才在去報告就說了就是說我們的農農經濟裡面有兩部分一部分就是我們的額度的提高嘛一部分是排富的部分嘛那額度的提高我們也認為它的基數比較低所以可以適度的提高不過藉著拿到外面來看我們的財政的一個負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11712.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11719.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
再來剛才我們國庭有去講到這個開戶啦所來我會跟國庭有請教我們這個開戶的條件現時是流浪金鐵的土地跟港澳開戶的門檻停留當民國一百年所定的五個月十四年來完全沒有調整過但是經濟我們來講過住宅價格的指數這種期間基礎已經為一百年的七十個 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11742.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11748.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們的資料是從100年開始到現在到73年我們的土地的公告限值已經提高了64.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11758.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11764.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
所以我們這個排富的標準已經拖過這個世界的總共15萬所以在這裡我會報告也說針對排富的部分我們也認為過往這些排富都沒有去調整是是必須在這一次在修法的過程中我們一併來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11782.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11793.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以我們後續的牌覆的設計也會根據這個土地的公告限值的增值的部分把它納入我們的增加提高我們的牌覆表格這樣就對了 這樣就對了國情啦 很多人都好像住在一間大型的老房子所以因為我們這個房價 地價的上漲讓林田資產過高 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11806.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11809.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
而喪失這個津貼的資格這樣結構成為頂端用通貨跟房價上漲經濟弱勢的牢籠去解讀所以我認同我們剛才國庭說的這個國分需要來檢討這個國分需要來檢討要讓我們牢籠 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11828.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11843.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
給一個比較好的一個高中這樣可以啦我想我們的風雲都大方向都一樣那後續我想我們的版本進到立法院以後我們會做一個更實質的一個我們的版本是憲政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11844.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11855.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
對 因為我們的版本就要上到行政院討論以後然後合訂以後要進到院會院會通過再出來我們盡快的請示行政院我們只能這樣講因為院會不是我們的白的我們也是要幫你順利一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11864.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11868.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
一輩子為台灣牛市安全付出的農民若在退休後 制度沒有恢復 而且生活困難政府照顧技術不夠就沒辦法了這些農民辛苦 辛苦做一輩子政府既然有這個退休金的金條 國條銀就應該有更好的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11889.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11891.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
來規劃現時的總統來調整這個國分 國長有可能你來比較用心一點比較用心 讓我們的農民實在體會到我們政府是真真正正在照顧他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11906.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11927.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我跟委員報告 委員提出來的39個版本我們每一個版本都把它做了分析然後我們也做了一些研議那大致上的方向都跟委員的版本是一樣的就是那個額度的部分要適度的提高然後排富的部分一定要納入相關的這些土地的公告限值的這個計算的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11927.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11946.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以方向都是一致的 只是說在額度方面的部分一定要考慮到財政的部分嘛 那後續我想我們的版本進到立法院以後 我們會再跟我們的委員做一些溝通跟說明有好的溝通就有好的結果啦這樣麻煩我們搞定 感謝教委 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11953.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11971.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
委員會這邊公告我們現在處理開會時間 中午我們就不休息但是12點半還是要讓各位這個出列席者要休息 上個廁所一下現在大家也可以來進行用餐接下來請賴瑞榮委員來做詢問好 謝謝召委 請陳部長來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11984.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12006.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
部長這個提高老農津貼的這個方向部裡面應該是支持啦對 我剛才說了就是說不管在額度或是在排富的部分那什麼時候會把這個版本提出來我想我們現在的版本現在在行政院那我們會去爭取盡快有沒有問過院裡面什麼時候會把它提到因為院會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12007.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12029.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
排院會的部分有很多不同的法案都在排隊嘛那我想我們會再去爭取部長有提到好像今年5月有提到年底前希望送到院裡面來送我們的目標是這樣子啦但是因為最後的那個立法院排進去我們還會再跟行政院希望加快速度好不好大家都也有共識的嘛這立委們也有共識包括布林報院也有共識提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12030.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12057.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這個老龍津貼的部分因應相關的物價跟相關的整個通膨的部分給予合理的一個調整好那我再來問一下部長那金額的部分會到多少部裡面提出來我剛才說的就是說雖然說我們在110年100年開始我們的那個額度的部分每4年有根據CPI調整但是因為當時的基數比較低所以你調了這麼多年來才到8110塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12059.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12083.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那很顯然這個基數太低我們覺得這個基數是可以適度的提高部長我直接問問會不會超過1萬元我沒有辦法現在完全的說明但是部長你支不支持超過1萬元我基本上我們在看任何的金額的部分一定會去看我們的財政的負擔對 所以如果財政負擔可以撞向你支持超過1萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12085.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12110.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我們也要看比例啦這個部分我覺得我現在沒辦法很明確的說明多少錢不過你的版本已經送到院會了不是嗎我基本上希望說我們的條的幅度是有一個那你送到院會的版本有沒有超過我想我們因為院裡面沒有核定我們沒辦法在這邊但是應該是朝這個方向對不對對就是會提高這個是確定的提高確定的然後朝向1萬元以上的這樣方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12113.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12137.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好沒關係不勉強部長了好不好我們朝努力因為我希望還是現在其實不管是老農甚至於青農甚至很多的其實我覺得對農民的照顧還是要持續的增加讓我們的農村讓我們的農民有更多人願意在那邊做努力好不好那我一樣的問題這個大家也提到暫行的部分部長應該同意把這個暫行拿掉了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12138.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12162.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
對 我剛才也特別說了就是當初立法的時候我不在場我不知道當初以暫行條例的這個暫行放下去的立法的原因不過以現在這個制度來講已經推行了這麼久那我們更應該把它制度化變成一個財力如果在法制上沒有特別問題然後再因為這個要調整可能要經過年金改革委員會來討論那我們也會支持部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12164.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12189.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
最早的是民國84年的老年農民福利金暫行條例超過30年了30年也都在發放了那一個事情暫行了30年我想可以不用再暫行了這已經是一個固定的制度那現在走向兩套制度並用的方向也都確定了所以我認為這個暫行應該是可以拿掉了就是朝向整個部長應該同意這樣的方向吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12189.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12206.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
對 如果說在法制上面如果沒有特別的問題的時候我們覺得因為它的製度部長 法制上有什麼特別的問題這件事情內部應該有機會因為我不瞭解所以我說如果法制上沒有任何問題的時候我們也支持用暫行可以拿掉農業部的幕僚單位有跟你做過報告嗎這個部分暫行的部分是可以刪除的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12209.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12237.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
OK 我們法制說暫停的部分如果說因為制度一直在執行是可以刪除的對 法務的意見給你是可以刪除的那部長你支持把它拿掉我個人覺得說它的制度應該是一個連續性的如果是連續性的一個政策法務上沒有問題法制上沒有問題的話你支持把它拿掉好 謝謝我們的看法是一樣的我認為就是把它拿掉讓大家知道我們這一套退休的制度是穩固的 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12238.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12261.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
特別是已經過30年了 也已經過30年了好 那再來我也請教一下這個因為部長剛剛也提到了就是說本來是年底前 今天12月24的那接下來送到委員會來運作的時候送到院會來 立法院院會來處理完畢的時候這個的回推會回到今年來會溯及既往嗎 還是會將來來整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12263.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12268.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
通過的時候再來整個試用還是會溯及到明年的1月1號開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12269.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12295.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這要看後續這個法案通過了以後的時間點那如果說在法規上面的一個可以追溯的話就會追溯到1月要看法規本身部長 照你的精神上面你希望在今年5月的時候你希望在今年年底前完成我們希望在這個會期我們希望明年1月1號已經可以有新的在這個會期我們盡量那我們朝這個努力啦 方向努力大家也認為應該給予這些老人基金提高的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12296.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12317.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那不管通過時間點也許是因為會期延伸延到明年的1月底我相信明年1月底前應該會完成這個修法我們也期待這樣子對 那如果完成修法的話是不是我們就溯及到1月1號來發房那這樣的話我想我們也希望是朝這個方向好不好對 朝這個方向我們朝這個方向來做明年1月 我相信朝野的立委都會支持不管最後的金額增加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12317.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12346.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
回溯到1月1號來正式發放應該是大家願意給農民的一個支持那部長也支持這個方向 謝謝再來關心的是台幅的部分因為現在因為當時設定了500萬的這樣的一個條款那事實上現在的農地的價格也都很多都上來的其實有時候稍微就超過了有時候可能一分地就超過了其實並沒有很大可能不到300坪的面積可能就超過了這個台幅的條款農地不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12347.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12366.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好 農地不算在那個計算裡面所以可以不用農地是不算的好 OK那如果這樣的話其實一個對 但是其他的部分會被排除掉嘛是不是對那這個部分排富的部分部長這邊會不會做整體的思考我想排富的部分我剛才也說了第一個部分就是所得的排富的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12366.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12390.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那過去也都沒有跟著CPI調整所以這次我們也希望說他跟著CPI來調整然後第二個部分是財產的部分那財產的部分特別是土地的部分如果排除了農地以外的其他的土地的部分那這個部分土地公告限值在過去從100年到現在已經提高了60%多了64.78%左右所以我們也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12390.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12408.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
他可能因為家裡有一個自住的住宅的房子那個房子價格如果超過了500的話他就沒辦法領到所以我們也會把他根據我們的土地公告限值去做相關的所以這個也會拉高啦會拉高比如說如果他是自有的住宅自己的總是老人家他有一個老 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12408.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12429.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
老房子 然後居住的那因為現在價格拉高了以後可能超過500萬了 對不管是土地 不管是房子對 我們都希望拉高因為我一直認為農民一輩子辛苦買來的房子他不會因為輕易的賣掉啦那他的這些地價上漲也不是他當然他最後可能會得利 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12430.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12454.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
但是他不可能為了這個得利馬上賣房子通常老農民不會願意去輕易的賣掉自己的房子所以我們希望說適度的提高這個排富的門檻不要因為這些而影響到他領進去老人我們在設計的時候是這樣設計的好不好 那我們希望這個部分盡快的提出來那適度的調高讓這些老農們他們一輩子務農一輩子付出這個部分他能夠領得到他該有的一些津貼好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12454.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12472.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那再來我也請教一下其實我覺得老農的部分不只是發現金包括甚至青農因為我前陣子剛也到東高雄去美農旗山很多的綠色的照顧服務其實也做得相當好我也希望很多的老人家其實他到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12474.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12489.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
社區關懷劇院去了其實不只是做一些他有時候做一些綠色的職財是他很多有過去的一些農作的經驗老人家很多有農作的經驗那他們其實來做的話其實那也是非常療癒的過程通常也非常有我是希望能夠大力的支持我希望農業部能夠大力的支持在各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12490.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12511.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
農村或各個地方的社區的一些站點的時候有更多的這樣的推廣讓更多的老人家走出他的家庭走出他的到社區來同時間做的事情不是只做原來既有的他同時間也可以做更多的這些農業的或者做一些植栽的或做一些的綠色照顧的等等這些我認為對他們都是一個非常好的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12511.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12536.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我謝謝委員 我還是跟委員說明就是從我個人在政策上的一個方向就是農村不再是一個生產的一個基地農村應該有更多的那個支持系統去導入特別是針對農村的老人本身的綠色造物我們有綠飲食 綠陪伴 綠療癒那這等等的部分就是為了能夠讓我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12537.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12560.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
年紀長者在農村的年紀長者能夠得到一個應有的照顧這個我希望擴大來加大來舉辦好不好我們會這樣擴大來辦理最後一個就是像最近高雄的南瓜生產過剩那很多其實可以作為冷凍的蔬菜我也希望這一塊請營養農業部持續的注意如果有些我們的農產品生產過剩的時候冷凍蔬菜其實是未來一個也是重要的一個趨勢方向能夠協助好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12561.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12585.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
對 有一些特定的可以冷凍的蔬菜我們會在產銷調節的過程中去協助農民去做一些冷凍然後先凍存以後再做加工好 謝謝 希望維持他們的價格然後也希望在農產品發揮最好的效果這是我們應該要做的好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝二位 謝謝部長這剛剛應該是姚署長要答覆才對才不會不虛實行接下來請徐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12595.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12598.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
謝謝主席 我們請農業部陳部長來 請部長委員好部長好部長我們今天在討論這個老農津貼的提高那我知道其實您是最關心農民的部長所以針對這部分剛剛我有聽到很多委員在質詢您您說一定會提高但提高的額度你還沒經過政院所以沒有辦法在這邊回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12622.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12636.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那我剛剛有看到您有做了一個報告就是各版本的財務評比的比較表就是如果一個月提高到8,550的話大概增加27.93億元增加到9,000大概是56.50億元然後如果增加到1萬的話大概是將近120億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12643.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12667.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那如果有的委員版本是一萬二就兩百四十六億元那有的委員版本我們黨團的版本是一萬五千所以大概要四百三七點三八億元那請問部長針對你們現在所做的財務評估還有就是您知道農業部的整個的預算的配比那比較有可能的是怎麼樣的這個提高到哪個金額你們才能夠負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12667.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12689.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
不過我想針對因為我們在送院的總預算裡面並沒有納入這個經費因為照原來這是四年調一次那我們在內部評估也覺得說應該啟動這個修法配合這些委員的一些意見所以不管他調多少我們都必須要去做額外的經費的爭取以現在來講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12692.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12719.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
每1000塊的話 將近64億 63.5億左右那這個部分我們就會考量到就是說在現在委員提的版本 39個版本裡面最高是12000最低是沒有調的部分那我們設計是在這個之間是我們在經濟的負擔上是可以負擔的我要跟委員報告 農業部的預算裡面有將近800萬是依法律義務支出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12719.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12731.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
然後特別是在農保還有一些相關的這些農業經濟的部分一年就花了大概四五百萬五百億去的所以當我的一個財政結構太多是福利支出的時候對我們現在的農業經營是有影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12734.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12763.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以我想後續會再跟委員討論對 我剛剛也有再提出說到底多少是你覺得不會有排擠效應的問題那所以目前看起來的話就是因為院白沒過可是你在這邊可能沒有辦法說出來但是你們的主張是希望調高那就是本席在這邊也跟部長來說明一下為什麼我們會主張說要調高是因為那個部長知不知道衛福部公告今年的最低生活費是多少了解 要一萬多一萬五 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12765.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12782.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那是最低生活費那我們目前是8,110元也就是大概只有一半而已那請問一下以現在這個物價高漲的部分如果我今天我老農我退休之後我只有8,110元那請問部長我該怎麼樣來生活呢因為事實上我一天大概只有270元要三餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12784.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12807.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
然後還要這個我的生活費還有另外就是說我的什麼水電啊相關的支出還有醫藥費年紀大了嘛很多醫藥的支出那請問270要怎麼過一天的生活我跟委員很簡單的幾個說明第一個說明就是說這個8110塊是一個我們政務體恤老農退休以後的一個福利的一個津貼給他那 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12808.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12834.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
第二個部分就是因為農業的這個職業他跟其他行業不一樣他沒有強制65歲一定退休那以現在的資訊來講65歲以上將近30萬人還在持續農業所以他也可以得到一些持續農業的所得那您關心的就是說如果他是一個孤獨的老人的部分這麼少的話那我相信還有其他的社會的福利制度包括醫療的包括其他的制度是可以來協助他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12835.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12849.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
對 但我剛提到嘛就以最低生活費就是270而已剛剛我講的這些他可能三餐都不能溫飽尤其您提到說他還有百分之還有30萬的人還在從事農業支出會不會是因為他如果不繼續從事農業他根本就沒有辦法溫飽 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12851.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12869.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我跟委員報告從事農業他有他的一個使命感跟他的熱誠度所以其實有很多年紀大的這些農民願意持續農業他還是喜歡農業甚至有一些剛才有委員講的他每天會去尋那個田那個是他本身當然我們現在講你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12871.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12899.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
部長講的是一個他自己主動願意的但我現在講的是說如果他是因為沒有辦法溫飽才8100億我如果再不務農的話我繼續做的話可能沒有辦法做到尤其是現在美國關稅因為在談判的過程中也希望說我們能夠也許會朝著零關稅這樣子的一部分去談如果是這樣的狀況之下可以說是雪上加霜他們可能就更難求得溫飽尤其是這還會影響什麼其實不是老農而已而是親農願不願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12901.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12927.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
因為他會發覺我老了之後結果我這麼一點的老容今天我可能沒有辦法溫飽所以我還不如現在就趕快轉業或者是做別的事情所以這對我們的糧食的自給率有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是能夠請農業部這邊可以算出一套我們要怎麼樣來去面對關稅的相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12929.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12957.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
不過我想關稅的部分那現在因為已經接近到最後的部分那我還是確定我們農業部的立場在過去的談判過程中我們第一個確保糧食安全然後確保農民的受益這個我們是一定是堅守的部分再去談相關的這些議題所以關稅的部分我想等關稅所以部長在這邊會具體的承諾說絕對不會犧牲農民的權益我們不會犧牲農民權益是 所以說那如果真的要求零關稅怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12959.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12985.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我覺得零關稅並不可怕有些零關稅是對我們產業反而有降低成本的部分然後有些零關稅可能是會做進口國的一些替代那不可否認的如果有一些產業受到一些短時間的衝擊的時候我們一定有支持系統但是我要跟委員報告我們在加入WTO的那一年也是大量的開放這個部分但是我想我們要對臺灣的農業是有信心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12986.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13006.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
我想不管是農業或是漁業啦其實針對這樣子的關稅到現在還沒有談定會不會零關稅這個部分其實大家都很憂慮啦所以我覺得農業部的保證跟農業部的作為是不是在真正來保護農民對於這個我們農民是很大的一個對 很大的一個信心這是我們的責任所以我們一定會去請部長一定要堅守喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13006.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13020.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
然後另外就是這次的這個提案本席有提到這個排付條款那剛剛也聽到部長說原則上您也會同意那請問一下就是自住屋的部分您大概同意大概會調升多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13021.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13046.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
不過我想基本上我們會用土地的公告限制當作一個參考我剛才也一直強調農民一輩子辛辛苦苦賺的錢去買一棟房子他不會輕易的把它賣掉因為他是要自住的他也不會賣掉他不會去賣掉他不會為了生活而賣掉去租房子所以我們一定要想辦法讓這些排骨的條款拉高他們現在坐在這個祖傳的房子裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13047.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13063.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
結果因為他價值變高結果他就沒有辦法就取消他的老農津貼所以讓他變成他是假富人但真貧窮那這個問題其實有蠻大的我相信我們未來提到立法院的版本應該可以讓委員們滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13065.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13080.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以部長是針對這個部分你們已經把這個牌付的部分拉高到應該是大家的版本裡面大概都可以就幾乎大家的版本大概都可以涵蓋在裡面是嗎我們是朝這個方向啦我想部長就是您是守護這個我們農民農漁民的這個守護者還是希望說部長在所有的考量裡面要以農漁民來做這個最大的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13092.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13117.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那當然有很多的問題包括說包括說剛這個我們的題目就是我們的現在的法案的這個暫行條例也是希望說因為放著暫行就會讓人家覺得好像隨時會取消所以針對這個部分也是希望部長能夠就是我們經過剛剛法制也已經說明了嘛不會有問題所以也希望說把這個暫行的部分我也跟委員報告從今天的報告我其實已經非常正面的回應委員的回應而不是用呼嚨的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13118.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13136.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
去談所以我們一直希望說大家一起努力把這樣子的一個對老農老農的照顧考慮到各種不同面向的一個和平性以後做一個最好的一個決定好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝接下來請楊耀文來做選擇謝謝主席主席請一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13150.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13178.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
保險局局長保險局白局長局長好 局長我們今天雖然是修老人福利津貼暫行條例不過就是提高老人津貼這個本席是贊成的我有 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13180.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13204.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
因為這個問題所以所以講到我們的勞保問題還是非常嚴重那你現在是勞保局局長之前是保險司的司長所以大概相關的問題你也都了解那我這樣子講假如說假如到最後是定案把老農津貼增加到每個月一萬五千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13207.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13222.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我先講就是增加到多少本席都沒有意見可是我們用這個一萬五千元來對比一下勞工勞退的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13223.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13249.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
就是說113年底的資料呢勞保裡面的年金給付每個月領一萬五的人其實是超過五十萬那勞王今天現在領的人大概也差不多四五十萬啦就是多少五十三啊對 那就差不多啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13251.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13271.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
而且这50个人呢平均的投保年资大概超过22年那一个是政府纯粹给的津贴一个是社会保险的给付这个对于很多劳工会不会很不公平局长你讲一下你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13277.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13301.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
是 報告委員喔勞工保險像委員剛才提它是一個社會保險所以在我們勞保的老年年金的金額它主要計算的取決標準是在它的投保年資還有平均投保薪資那當然年資越長投保薪資越長可以領的金額也會越高我知道 我現在是說你要不要就你的立場表態一下津貼的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13304.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13328.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我有在講喔就是說勞保年金它本身是受給負責它是自己繳保費國家成立的一個社會保險我繳保費繳了22年可是呢我月領1500元以下的超過50萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13330.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13349.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那津貼呢是政府的給予的福利給付那它的人數也大概超過五十萬那都是一萬五你有沒有什麼看法你覺得公不公平我直接這樣子問好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13350.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13376.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那個 報告委員 勞保局我們這邊受託辦理老農津貼的一個發放那從老農津貼 剛才部長也有提到從照顧農民的角度以及兼具財政上面的一個可行性上面會就老農津貼的金額上面去做一些大家整體的考量那從局這邊 因為我們在受託業務上面我們會尊重農業部在相關金額上面不是 你當然要尊重 我現在不是在問這個問題我是說你會不會覺得勞工領得太少 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13378.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13397.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
對我們勞動體系來講其實能夠給勞工更好的照顧一定是我們勞動部會往這個方向去努力的那我看這個方向你們已經努力了十年啦你從保險師到現在你覺得有什麼可以努力的還是撥補就是你們唯一的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13399.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13409.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
報告委員也非常謝謝委員會在上個禮拜我們審查通過了勞保條例六十六條跟六十九條那也謝謝委員因為委員非常重視我們勞保財務 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13410.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13438.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
在政府付最終支付責任委員也有提案還有將我們政府要撥補的這個都入法明定那另外也在條文上個禮拜也有特別提到要有定期的財務檢討機制外我們在委員會特別通過一個附帶決議就是委員所關心的除了撥補之外我們參考各國在年金改革的一個經驗他是多管旗下的一個開源節流的一個措施所以相關的措施部分的話局長你直接你直接跟我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13439.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13446.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
在國際上多館旗下的其中哪一館你覺得台灣是可以先行來做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13447.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13476.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
跟委員報告那一天的附帶決議其實裡面有提到我們長期勞動部這邊希望能夠再促進勞工能夠再續留職場或者是說可能那天有提到在附帶決議裡面希望我們能夠炒我們在相關的基金投資收益率或者是說在我們勞保局審核面有關納保面或給付面等等 我想他的面相非常的廣闊 續留職場是不是 續留職場是含蓄的講白話是不是就是延長退休年限 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13477.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13501.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們在之前有通過中高齡的就業專法中高齡 促進中高齡就業專法那我們會往那個角度其實這幾年勞動部在這一方面的努力我們也一直在往這邊做相關的一個我現在問的是法定退休年齡延後這可能就是因為委員這邊關心說國外的各種改革的方式那國外的方式其實都有很多種它不管是從納保層面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13502.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13526.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
或者是從給付層面的確都有那之前在國內我們也討論了非常的有一段時間大家在做交集那因為從不同的不管是從勞工層面或者從資方層面或者從政府財政上面或者是說不同的年齡層大家其實都還有不同的意見所以這部分大家也希望能夠在改革的過程中能夠確保勞工的生活保障可以不要受到影響之下那能夠大家再做一些及時廣益 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13527.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13555.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
就是一定會受到影響因為老容津貼已經提高到這樣子了那勞保一直改革沒有進度當然我們上個禮拜委員會把政府撥補的責任入法然後把最終責任給負責任入法那這個都不是改革的本身就是說老容津貼比較快因為他是國家直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13557.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13579.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
直接給付所以比較快就是透過修法就可以增加老農的收入保障他的生活老保不一樣老保你們假如說一直還是停留在這裡那遲早因為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13582.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13601.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
坦白說這幾年的通貨膨脹真的非常嚴重領一萬五千元的勞工這麼少這麼多這個到底怎麼生活你們回去要看一看我今天並不想為難你我只是說藉由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13605.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13612.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這個法案然後連結過來讓你們知道勞工有多慘這樣子而已了解非常謝謝韋爺關心好 局長請回我再請一下農業部長部長我簡單跟你討論一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13622.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13649.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
部長好部長我剛剛有聽到你一直在說有關老王今天排布條款的修改問題那我們現在的條件有不動產的價值然後有個人所得的問題嗎有三個部分一個是所得的部分一個是土地跟房屋的一個價值的部分然後另外還有一個唯一自住房的一個扣除額的部分三個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13650.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13679.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那我就綜合所得總額不得超過50萬這個你們有沒有可能會改我剛才提到了就是我們所會來會提到送到立法院的版本裡面包括所得的部分包括排付財產的部分所得的部分你們會怎麼改因為所得的部分基本上過去都沒有根據CPI調整我們這一次會把它導入一次根據過去沒有累積的這些CPI一次到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13680.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13693.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我簡單建議一下就是綜合所得的部分我們是不是要區分區分被動收入跟主動收入就是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13695.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13717.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
台灣邁入中高齡社會嘛那勞動部也一直在鼓勵中高齡再投入就業市場所以假如說可以把他的勞力所得扣除在外可能一方面也公平嘛另外一方面也可以提高他的就業意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13719.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13731.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
避免他為了要領津貼然後原本可以投入再投入職場的機會反而就沒有了對於個人跟國家都是一種損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13732.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13750.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我跟委員報告我第一個要先說明這邊的所得的部分是指非農業的所得農業的所得都不會去處理都不會排掉非農業的所得的部分就是他有從事農業以外的兼職的工作對但是你的兼職的工作如果太多的話這等於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13751.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13781.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那個本業跟兼業變成顛倒了啦但是我們在考慮這個部分的時候我們是用所有的所得嘛去做處理如果再分一些主動的被動的那那個變成更複雜變成個人中二所得的這個是個人中二所得嗎我是提供提供你們做參考啦我覺得就是他假如願意願意再再投入職場我們應該要鼓勵啦好好謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13781.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13786.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
好謝謝是不是請我們陳部長上臺委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13810.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13831.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
部長事實上113年度的審計部總決算審核報告裡面也有談到這件事就是說事實上老農今天的制度本來是在尚未建立完整農民退休制度以前的過渡性措施不過大家都知道立法的債刑條例這個立法的初衷到現在這麼多年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13832.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13858.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
社會普遍的認知和期許都不再是這個樣子了那在這種狀況裡面我們都知道老農今天以逐漸的有補充性的支持轉變為大家期許他事而且事實現實上也是多數農民退休後的主要經濟依據那使得這個制度的角色跟功能產生了結構性的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13859.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13871.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
可是事實上整個制度的設計都跟不上社會的期許和這個社會的認知的需要那在這種狀況裡面會發生幾件事當然這個審計部的這個報告裡面講到是說113年度相關的經費已經佔了這個就是老農津貼的給付已經佔了農業部將近四成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13883.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13898.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
這個支出了所以在這種狀況裡面未來50年的給付責任還要高達8111億顯示對政府中長期的財政已經形成了不可忽視的壓力但是呢我們現實來講它既然已經成為 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13901.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13921.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
這個多數農民實質的老年的經濟依靠的話在這種狀況裡面每個月8110元他的給付水準顯然是低於最低的生活費的標準那整個制度設計它不是保險制它是一個福利津貼所以沒有辦法符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13921.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13948.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
这个老年农民生活还有降低贫困风险的效果的期待更难以回应高龄化社会下农民实际的生活需求那我们知道说你们作为这个还有这个未来本来想要过度的这个退休除金制度要作为第二层嘛那要去逐步的承接老农津贴的功能但是我们都知道你们参与率太低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13949.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13968.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
具有資格的六成具資格的農民根本沒有納入這個體系所以導致你的制度沒有辦法銜接最終仍然還是要仰賴這個老農津貼的單一制度才承擔的退休保障的責任但是我們也知道現在青農 青農誰要領這個津貼青農都去參加職業工會吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13974.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13990.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
金融現在也不能領因為要65歲才能領我知道但他們現在要早一點去參加職業公會因為年資跟給付的問題投保金額的問題青龍不會把自己未來65歲以後的老年經濟安全寄放於8000多元或是未來12000或15000因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13993.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14021.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
在勞保裡面再怎麼算大家想方設法就是要去保勞保所以我們現在問題就是說其實就勞保今天跟農民退休這個儲金的制度來講說其實很明確的它的功能定位社會的期許社會的希望和認知跟你現在給付的結構和政策上落差太大了所以大家講的都很有道理可是大家都沒有要釐清它 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14021.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14046.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
他現在整個制度的設計到底是什麼屬性我覺得今天整個早上諮詢都是沒有去談說這個津貼他到底是什麼屬性不是嗎所以我跟委員報告就是在整個農民老農津貼的部分我們的定位是在一個福利的一個津貼的一個給付的一個作為但是不要忘了他社會的期待他已經不再是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14049.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14069.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
因為公務預算就是這麼有限然後能給的就這麼少可是社會對他依賴的程度老農對他依賴的程度對他的期待所以才會有大家不斷的要加碼然後一方面砍中央的預算到地方去啊但一方面又要你幾戶更多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14070.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14092.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
所以我其實我是講說制度其實應該要好好的討論但是我知道制度無法變革啦制度一變革就牽扯到選票啦選票就牽扯到這個每個政黨的政黨利益還有個別候選人的利益所以我就不談了但我現在跟你討論的是我要希望你看的是農民職業病啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14093.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14116.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
農民職業病這個問題可能會更大我們希望很務實的來討論因為2023年國衛院曾經有一個研究指出從勞保和健保資料庫中去篩選出667種可能跟農民職業相關的傷害和疾病再將參加農民健康保險農民跟一般民眾去進行分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14116.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14139.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
藉此去找出農民比較顯著的經常罹患的疾病的類型那研究的結果顯示一共有13種疾病在農民族群中具有比較高的發生率那相關成果也給你們參考了那其實你們在植栽農民的植栽保險制度裡面你們的第9條也列了相關的一些很明顯就直接認定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14141.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14155.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
農業植栽的疾病在裡面的比如說已經很確定的農業行為跟致病的機制跟罹病的結果之關聯已經有高度的相關而且可能是因果的包括黴菌型角膜潰瘍 農藥中毒這個溝端螺旋體病這個都很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14163.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14188.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
但是還有需要進一步釐清但高度疑似跟農業相關的疾病但是難以直接判定直接相關和因果但是可以從農業環境和工作型態中來推論其風險的高低的比如說人畜共通傳染病斑診三行熱還有角膜結膜炎大概是有這一方面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14189.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14218.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
但是還有一種像是肌肉骨骼跟關節疾病肌肉骨骼跟關節疾病它高盛行率在你們投保的這些農民裡面高盛行率但是鑑定困難但是研究也有顯示農民較一般人更容易罹患膝關節炎 髖關節炎病骨前滑囊炎但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14220.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14243.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
骨骼跟結地組織的疾病常跟自然老化交織職業成因鑑定是相對困難所以對此研究資料已經交給中華民國環境職業醫學會後續將希望由專科醫師進行分析逐步的去建立農民職業病災害的判斷指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14244.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14269.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那另外一項就是這個農藥的暴露風險跟癌症風險這個自然不在話下你們第九條裡面有一些也是農藥致癌的那當然最明顯是皮膚癌但是農民在工作中長期暴露於多項致癌因子包括高溫暗紫外線農機具的柴油跟廢氣土壤中的結晶型的二氧化矽還有農藥那大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14270.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14286.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
紫外線跟柴油廢棄還有結晶型二氧化矽都被IARC列為一級致癌物一級致癌物但是我們比較近10年農民跟一般民眾的罹癌的資料後已經發現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14287.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14306.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
不分性別 農民罹患非黑色素皮膚癌的機率明顯高男性農民常出現口腔癌 食道癌 肝癌這個可能跟生活習慣也有相關可是生活習慣也有可能是因為他的經濟行為導致的需求或是減壓來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14311.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14334.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那農民罹患淋巴性白血病和非合結菌是淋巴流的機率也比較高但是治病的基準還需要去研究但是我們是希望你們從作物類型出發的田野調查釐清真正的疾病的來源去進一步的確認疾病跟農業行為的關係在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14339.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14352.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
國衛院 我們衛福部國衛院已經展開了下鄉調查在提供健康檢查跟衛教服務的同時我們國衛院要去蒐集第一手的疾病跟暴露的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14354.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14378.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
初期他們也鎖定栽培面積比較大的稻米和果樹的產區而且屏東的萬丹、枋寮地區針對芒果、蓮霧、紅豆的作物去深入的探討生產方式跟農民離病的關聯性研究也已經初步的確認了農民在多項疾病上具有顯著的職業風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14381.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14404.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
但是呢還需要結合大多數更多的數據的大數據分析還有實地的田野調查才能夠釐清作物然後用藥曝露疾病之間的因果關係才能夠完善你農民職業病認定的還有這個預防政策的科學基礎啦所以我要問你部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14406.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14411.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
112年我們國衛院做了這一份報告以後你們後續有什麼作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14414.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14436.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我跟委員報告我們在做職業災害處理因為農業的人的操作跟疾病如果有直接關係的話我們就直接正面表列對啊你第9條有啦然後另外有一個非常重要的就是沒有列在正面表列的我們就是用那個專業醫師的檢定如果認為他是跟這個職業是有關的我們直接就可以處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14437.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14460.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
然後您剛才講的國衛院的相關資料我們收集了以後如果能夠確認的我們就擺入我們的正面像您剛才講的有一些關節囊的部分我們就擺入了那我告訴你一個數據根據統計近三年農民依據你們已經正面表列了叫做第九條嘛請領職業案件前三名第一名是中暑熱季暖暗熱說來節嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14462.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14474.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
14件第二名樣蟲病10件第三名溝端螺旋病體7件第四名農藥中毒7件近三年加起來37件好結果還需要職業這個災病 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14477.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14505.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
专科医师去认定的就是适用第九支医条的腰椎 椎间盘突出等腰椎患者12件板肌指 身肌腱断裂碗隧道症候群的12件肩部旋转肌肌腱破裂旋转肌袖症症候群5件膝关节 骨关节炎还有其他关节炎的5件眼睛疾病2件脑心血管疾病1件肺引球菌病1件三年一共38件 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14507.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14531.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我現在要說的是需要再進一步去還要認定英國的38件你們正面表列的只有37件我們的意思是說這樣子好了我先講了在農業現場的健康檢查的時候我們都知道其實老農跟青農不一樣老農其實對於保健知識職業病的預防他顯然他的專業還有專注 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14534.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14557.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
知識 智能其實相對是比青農不如的在這種狀況裡面可是我們都知道說農民植栽保險開辦以來到110年為止傷病幾副案件達到4832件為歷年最高在這種狀況裡面各種職業病的案件怎麼分布不僅關係到制度的檢討還攸關到未來的預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14560.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14586.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我們都知道降低職災始終是預防更勝於給付和補償但是你必須要透過了解農業環境工作型態作物類型或地區差異去進行分析還更需要大量的數據去支持才能更精準更有效的預防和宣導但是你剛剛講的這三年裡面農民職業災害保險當中職業傷病跟職業病的核定率 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14586.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14592.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
可能不是很高然後對於這個核定的結果跟你們去檢視現行的審查標準跟實務運作有沒有存在著審查的這個嚴格影響農民實際的保障情形第一個第二個就是我剛才講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14603.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14624.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
九之一條就是不是在正面表列的還需要去認定的都已經大過於第九條了已經有沒有可能是沒有辦法實質的完整的去反映農民實際的健康風險的也就是說你正面表列的項目已經不足以不夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14626.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14647.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我們知道健康檢查能夠及早發現疾病但對高齡的老農來講尤其很重要但大多數的老農也沒有定期健檢的習慣我們應該要比照老保你知道老保的僱主在剛開始一進入職場前都必須去做基礎的體格檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14648.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14665.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那我們需不需要對老農的健康把關建立一個農民健康資料庫使農民在長時間勞動後如果罹患了慢性疾病仍然有發病前的健康資料作為佐證來有利於職業病的鑑定他沒有健檢的習慣當它發生的時候難以判斷因果 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14668.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14673.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
然後在這種狀況裡面你難以證明因果的時候你其實也沒有大數據通通都沒有有沒有可能我們會妨礙因為缺少這個機制會妨礙後續的職業病的認定和診斷有沒有可能做對農民有基礎的健康的檢查納入農民職災保險的配套措施或是獎勵措施建立一個全國農民的健康基礎資料庫有沒有可能應該要這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14698.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14698.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
如果你要做職業傷病的預防的確是需要這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14704.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14729.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
我想非常謝謝委員的一個建議跟提醒那很簡單的說明第一個部分就是正面表列的部分大概大概51然後個別去個案去處理的這個部分大概48%那我們現在的處理方式就是把沒有列入正面表列的但是已經在這個個別的處理發現說他有正相關的我們就會滾動到正面表列的部分在第一個部分我們會去加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14729.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14755.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
第二個部分就是 正相關就要滾動進去第九條那很不錯喔但是你沒有基礎檢查了那個比較了基礎第二個部分就是我也曾經跟同仁討論就是說要不要開辦一個我們農民的健康健康檢查的一個制度那後來我深入了解以後那個知識體大容我很多細部在牽扯到後面的經費的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14755.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14764.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
沒有沒有 我們健保署已經把幾歲以上的基礎檢查都有cover掉了我們要排掉我是說整合進來你們應該編列一筆給青農他從農以前進入職場前的基礎體這個健康檢查從農的 然後可能在10年以後再一個但是比照健保署40歲50歲以後你的檢查項目不一樣那整合健保署的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14783.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14796.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
健保署已經有了基礎檢查那我們在加強職業傷病的預防上再加含哪些項目再放進去那需要多少錢要估進去有了這一些基礎數據你才能夠確認說我是因為從容而發生的職業傷病 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14801.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14816.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我想非常謝謝委員的建議那我們也曾經設也應該後續會去處理就是說只要你加入退休儲物金在年輕的部分我就有一個健康檢查的一個系統然後不同的年紀他的檢查項目可能會不一樣那這個部分我想我們再會設計因為這現在經費的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14819.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14846.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
你去想一下因為我們希望避免老農誤以為說我生理的病痛就是年紀大了嘛所以並不是沒有想過是職業病大家就覺得理所當然我年紀大了生理耗損是應該的可是如果我們真的要做農民的職業傷病的給付這個要保險那麼我們就給他做好好好的做完整的做配套都要進來我的意思是這樣子我知道了解了解謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14848.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14875.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那接下來請蘇清泉委員那委員會這邊通告蘇清泉委員巡打結束之後休息十分鐘謝謝謝謝主席那我請部長來 請部長各位老保局局長來 白局長柏中辛苦啦你小到年輕 讚 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14877.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14886.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
你說什麼 我說真的 我問你三個問題來 第一個問題就是有農民的觀念說他現在產殼病有三問題 四問題 五問題要做親農 做完之後是不是有災害災害就親農去申請這樣他這個地主這個老農 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14904.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14914.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
農保都要沒了 農保的65歲以上應該不會這樣子嘛有啊 他們就沒有了清朝就把他幹掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14921.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14950.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這如果這樣 你這樣搶你青草我看這農保聯會不會被你割走我現在沒有在處理這個區塊你也知道這個區塊是過去這些農民他退休一遙然後他把這個低租給農民這是我們鼓勵的部分你就是在鼓勵這個農民只要土地出租的話他的農民退休途徑是可以維持的嘛這個就被你們清掉囉農保的是我們沒有去清啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14952.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14964.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
65歲以上沒有 所謂審計部要求我們清的我們才會去處理啦另外土地給做建光墊建光墊之後 那塊塊就不是農地了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14966.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14982.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
他的農民生活也破掉了不是 種光電的部分你如果說農地變更從農地變為非農地的時候那當然他沒有農地就是會處理但是你如果農許的話有沒有 都沒有問題啊再來就是他的土地現在本來要工業區裡面變工業區的地 他也沒有因為他的地幕已經改了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14992.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15008.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以這你們在清查的時候要很小心我們非常小心你們農保的老農老漁領津貼的現在本來從七八十萬現在已經掉到剩下五十來萬不是 那個是因為年紀大了 凋零往生 凋零再來就是這個青農他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15013.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15022.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
不太敢說寄望於65歲以後捏這個老農津貼捏這個就我們死了所以大家都去做第二套路所以大家都有勞保的身份嘛所以你們這裡的負擔會越來越少你們這裡的人會越來越少我想前陣子就比40幾萬、30幾萬跟我的反省部不一樣就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15035.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15052.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
不會啦 我跟委員報告特別是在農民退休儲金很多委員的建議就是說我們一些勞保的固定雇主的部分我們也開放他可以領退休儲金那這樣的方式的話能夠鼓勵這些他來繼續從事農業 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15054.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15075.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
你說的農保的儲金這是另外一個意思嗎不是農保的儲金是他現在加老保他是用一定僱主的這些老保的這些家保人他如果有從事農業的行為的時候我們可以讓他申請我們的農退儲金這樣的話他退休照樣有保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15077.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15083.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
會請你們的人來我辦公室大家就收拾一下這個是委員提出來的建議啦你這個齁 你這個都亂說一年了我說你沒亂說這是委員建議我們也認同的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15088.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15098.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
九龍尾啊 九龍尾啊一定僱主的老寶老龍 老魚 金 鐵 爪 壁 木 木 碗的都被你衝到後面去了這要很誠實的我們在這裡不會把原來的今天拿掉我們來討論一下我也要跟盧副局討論一下我們都衝衝我一定要去我們這裡都不用第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15109.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15119.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
現在農民 像去年 山蘇有颱風 再來是丹納斯颱風 再來洋流颱風 接著接著接著就像我們部長說的 極端氣候所以這些農民 都頭頭雪扁烏龜都在吃頭農 老農 老漁的津貼 是在幫他們補填嘛這就是想去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15133.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15139.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
農業的收入這邊就沒有了你現在這是最起碼讓他們可以支撐你忘記說每天可以看餐桌看餐盒我們家現在還在收拾我們家現在還有水瓶還有 還有 還有香蕉有很多但是我們如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15152.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15159.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
有老農津貼要九十多個月過去我們現在說沒辦法 都在做事喔我們家也要做事 但是都沒家人領 也沒領所以我跟我說農業部不錯喔你這樣一直衝 一直衝到最後都一樣在做事但是沒辦法 老農津貼的越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15173.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15195.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
所以你在講的那個財政負擔我看這是沒那麼嚴重反省越來越少了我了解但是我們現在我跟你講這一陣子這幾年來農業的人口結構剛好在轉型老農的退的速度大概一年大概1萬5左右1萬4 1萬5左右然後新進的話還不到1萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15199.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15215.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
進的比較少啦 退的比較多啦但是他最後會達到一個平衡點所以我們怎麼樣去鼓勵年輕人趕快進來去做一個比較有效的平衡啦所以不會說進來 你以後那個金錢在那邊輸多少錢你是要叫他 叫他怕死喔我們現在設計的這個農民退休儲金他如果補30年跟勞保一樣補30年他的領的會比勞保的還多 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15227.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15240.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我這邊有資料啦就是後續就是領三萬如果三十年三萬九千三百六十年我上次在大院會總質詢有跟你報告的就是你現在的榮損都用成本的20%來當榮損當補助嘛這你也相信你說要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15244.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15265.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那是要調整嗎我們有調嘛 有調啦有調對 明年就公佈了調兩百塊調五百塊這樣喔我們不是用錢花的我們會精算它的成本然後另外重複受一年重複受影響的多年級作物我們有加碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15266.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15282.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這剛才你有說 你說他高雷去保養保生的保險 保產險有27個樣品嘛 44個產品嘛28個品項 四張保單保的 保了個位數的紅來的啦 什麼都不可以保嘛不貴也不可以保是誘因不夠 補助不夠 還是保一保到不夠不完這個保養公司 一個比一個還要多一億啦產險公司這要多一億啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15295.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15300.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
所以我前幾天跟卓院長說你那些農金屬這麼用這麼好這麼有錢就幫你補就好了這些農民是你的子民不然你會有300萬人在從事農藝務這些人他們在做的工作是假的像我們屏東是假的 你是假的你也給他保險讓他遇到災害的時候不要血本無歸真的是會一剎頭 跳牢 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15324.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15325.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
總預算先審我們就很多事情都能夠處理啦所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15347.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15372.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
再來前面的題目 要講了我們生活上 你說台北 台中 屏東都15000元一條 最少所以我拿的版本 15000元你就會覺得 喔 給1000元 給幾億 多幾億我想 到時候會領的人會越來越少沒有像你講的那麼多 而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15374.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15397.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
你要講的不是菜市場在化假我們八千、一萬、萬千,我們在化所以你連那個老鵝、老鵬、老蝙蝠的就要安定的時候都七萬五千、四萬所以保證你們做好好的考量,好好的研究以這個為目標啦那大家可以來協商,這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15401.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15426.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我想額度提高是大家的共識那提高到多少錢一定是看我們的財政負擔那也不會像委員說的以後我們的負擔會越來越少相對的就是說我們很努力讓年輕人進來透過退休儲金去保障他的退休保障那這個部分我想最後還會看到他的橫平性那另外8110如果拉到15000的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15427.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15444.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那將近拉了快一倍啦那這個考慮到其他的公平性的問題這個我想我們都要去考量因為我們當然沒有說我農業部一定是希望農民津貼是一個很好的一個制度但是從行政院的角度從行政團隊的角度我們要考慮其他的社福屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15445.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15468.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
53萬人8100多是差不多490幾億如果用1萬5的話差不多就將近900億而且他最低所得利用最低所得的省但是老農他退休以後還有將近30萬人是在從事農業他有其他的所得嘛然後他也有同他的子女在照顧嘛他不是唯一透過這811來生活的你這樣說是倒過話什麼他要他還 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15472.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15494.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
七十個八十個 還要去求求看那些老闆在那裡做農那是國福里莊 他們不夠生活你還要動作說他還在那裡減財我都生病了我想我們這一期一個基本的政府提供給農民退休以後的一個福利的一個津貼嘛那相對的這個部分我想我們一起努力啦看看怎麼樣去處理好 部長 農糧署的來研究一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15504.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15519.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
等一下私底下找書委員報到一下不過要跟書委員講一下這個我們通過之後如果預算你們還不審的話新增的是不能動的提醒一下 好休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16206.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16213.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
好 我們會議繼續 接下來請邱志偉委員來做詢問好 謝謝農業部陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16238.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16266.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
報告我都想誰看我想這個今天做調整他是有他的必要性也有他的急迫性你覺得怎麼樣必要性跟急迫性就是因為有必要性跟他的急迫性所以在這次看委員的版本其實我們也把我們的版本送到行政院審核了是那現在待院會通過就可以 針對第二條第四條跟第七條大多數委員都是針對這三條做調整這也是修改的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16267.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16288.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
就是說你的額度要怎麼去調整包括你牌覆要怎麼牌覆門檻要怎麼調整這是大概是今天討論的重點那我先請教一下部長那行政院審議中對不對最快什麼時候會送到立法院呢我想這個法案啊應當是有行政院版本做併案審查才會比較客觀嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16289.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16304.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
大概什麼時候會送立法院我想整個行政院在法制作業大概也完成了現在就是再通過院會以後就能夠送到立法院來我想我們會盡快的跟行政院建議就是說盡快的排入院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16305.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16333.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
但今天不可能的嘛這個就是我回去還是跟行政院溝通希望能夠盡快因為院會本身 院會本身的排定因為還有很多很多議案嘛所以我想是不是我們在跟行政院溝通都還沒有覆尾啊對所以可見的是大概這個會期你這個從今天法律上調整因為你院本還沒進來對所以相關的討論大概會等到下個會期嘛最快 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16334.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16353.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我們是希望在這個會期能夠處理不過不管怎麼樣就算通過了以後如果總預算沒有進到進到討論跟決定的時候就算通過也沒錢相對應的預算這個規模已經確定了嗎因為今天這個法律還沒有調整還沒有訂單那你預算規模是多少你還不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16353.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16374.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
所以現在沒有 現在目前本身的規模的部分我們都要用爭取其他的額外的經費那整個總預算如果沒有過的話所有的預備金什麼東西都不能動所以這個部分 預備金 災害準備金都不能動新興計畫如果可以 新興計畫也不能動那你要報立法院同意可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16375.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16389.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
新計畫的暴利法院同意對 那基本上本質上我們還是希望說總預算能夠經常費用他是沒有辦法你是按照去年的額度對所以你這個應該是用新興計畫新興計畫的部分 然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16391.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16409.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
這個計畫是可以報立法院同意這個是原來的計畫但是經費增加嘛經費增加的話 增加的經費也不能動嘛然後你如果要向行政院提出額外的經費傾徵的時候那總預算沒過的話什麼都不能談啊所以我們還是希望立法院所以這看起來不像是這個新興計畫嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16410.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16428.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
就是說延續性的計畫延續的經費增加增加額度嘛也不能動也不能動之增加額度也只能針對這個去年度的額度對 去年度的額度嘛所以我們還是希望說在討論這個的時候也希望說這關係到這個全國農民的權益啊為什麼我很難想像為什麼重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16430.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16456.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
這從來沒有那麼晚復違過而且院長還沒有來報告過對這是十幾年來我在立法院從來沒看過這種狀況對 這也是我剛才跟很多委員講我們一方面在討論說希望能夠有更多的經費支持農民但是另一方面預算都不省的時候我們很多東西是不能做的是啊 那這個你立法通過這個預算沒有辦法省沒有辦法通過你也只能用去對 也是用舊的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16461.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16479.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
這個狀況我覺得很憂心這種對國家的制度完全是漠視甚至是破壞我覺得是非常對國家的制度的破壞對人民福祉的傷害我想這個是不可我認為是不可原諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16481.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16506.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
不可原諒因為這些錢都是用在這個人民身上就是國家建設上面對 以農業部的立場我們的經費如果委員有任何意見我們都很樂意去進行討論跟溝通但是連這個機會都沒有是 所以我們這個針對今天主要的兩個針點就是說你這個額度的調整額度的調整就一定要按照這個在現行的調整機制之下看看這個其中的檢討時間點放在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16510.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16530.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
檢討的依據是什麼這個部分這個部裡面的看法是怎麼樣我們這樣子因為現在本來是每四年的CPI調整一次但是我們考量到這幾年來的CPI的浮動性蠻不確定性蠻高的所以我們建議說就是四年裡面有一個其中的一個檢討機制大概定在兩年就去檢視一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16531.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16553.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
然後檢視的時候看這個CPI如果CPI如果達到一個3到5%的時候我們就應該馬上啟動因為3%是大家可以忍受的如果超過3%以上可能對於整個的一個穩定生活的穩定有影響那如果我換個角度來看你不要設期中你就把整個檢討時程把四年縮成兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16555.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16583.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我想我們原來的設計還是四年然後另外如果說兩年的時候又要一個門檻的時候那很有可能一個情形如果他四年是4%然後前面兩年是3%調了嘛那後面1%以現在我們設計還可以調但是以後就不能調了如果說沒兩年就不能調那你期中檢考的這個依據是什麼大概CPICPI我們是期待3%到5%然後到時候在委員這邊看怎麼討論達到一個比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16585.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16609.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
所以這個抱怨的版本是大概3%到5%對那另外這個牌付的部分也是大家所關心的那怎麼樣來調整這個牌付的相關的規定牌付的部分分為三個部分第一個部分是所得的部分現在是50萬那因為過去沒有隨著CPI調整所以我們這次希望一次到位大概有將近16%可以調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16610.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16638.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那這樣的話第一個把所得就處理了那另外一個是財產的部分那財產這部分大部分是根據土地公告限制那過去從100年開始也一直都沒有100年都沒有調整那現在已經累積了大概百分之六十幾的部分那我們也希望說他一併能夠調整包括我們的自用住宅的部分那如果按照你這樣說明我了解如果這個按照國民黨提案到一萬五你覺得可行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16639.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16668.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我覺得以財政負擔以公平性還有以其他的社福基金的橫平性來講還有他調高的一次性調高的那個比例我都覺得不太適合最重要的是財政負擔的部分大概每條1000塊就會增加63億所以你如果到15000現行是8550那現行是大概一年經費大概不到30億那你如果按照這個國民黨版本是要15000要增加到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16668.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16672.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
大概437億 哇增加幾倍多囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16675.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16699.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那你再增加你如果按照今年度的這個老農今天的這個我們現在目前發的老農今天就502億了我們現在一年大概就是500多億了如果再增加到15000的時候又增加了400多億那加起來就將近900億那整個農業部的預算裡面現在目前依法律義務支出的將近有800億一定排擠這一定排擠所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16701.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16722.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
做這個東西我們還有很多配套的作為調的機制要建立起來建立起來要有一個公平性對 這個也是我們希望說設計一個比較長久的一個製作性的部分建築到公平性 對不是漫天喊價漫天喊價我覺得太不科學也太不理性對 所以我們希望說有一個比較好的一個制度我非常準時的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16725.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16726.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
謝謝邱委員的準時 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16745.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16768.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
感謝主席 那我們在場的委員先進 業協政府機關市長 官員會長 共和夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們農業部陳部長衛福部社保司的陳副司長勞動部勞工局的勞保局的白局長以及主計總署的邱專維主計總署邱專維委員好保證你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16769.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16775.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
今天我們看到這個勞動電廠我們看一下我現在下概清楚了勞動電廠的配合應該符合現況而且我們部分職業不管是勞工一般的國民還是我們的農民都要加強退休保養請問在庭市委都聽到有贊成都支持嗎我剛剛講的這個標題好像你們還沒進入狀況我說我們部分職業應該全面強化退休保養你們都認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16794.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16809.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
認同嘛 也支持啦農業的部分我們就在處理啦對對對 所以我說一千年以模範生嘛往下看 來這個我們老農今天大家都問假啦目前啦 咱以生活必須啊我想前面很多委員都說別人不要講啦 就是台灣性來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16809.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16829.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
一萬五千歐這是一個一個人的生活所需所以現在農業部針對我們老農電廠實在是不要說不可以去啦不可以去也去很多啊所以是不是這個條件考慮到跟我們相關的相關費都要保有這個保存考慮在內嗎我們我們有參考這樣子一個一個比例對 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16831.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16859.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所以你們也思考到這個點不是只有考量物價接下來我們國保年金我們衛福部是不是目前我們沒有參加各種職業保險的民眾他就選擇國民年金是這樣嗎但是要跟部長和局長說其實很多農民他參加很久的農保但是到了接近晚年的時候他的農地就沒有了所以他就被農保排除所以他就跑到國保來了部長知道有這個情況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16861.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16878.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
了解喔 有時候知道有這個很多是農民結果招來國保的好 國保現在有到月齡有不到4000了嗎有 如果我們也把它考慮到這些部分有機會有能力有沒有人把樓地板的往上調你支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16880.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16902.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
如果我們政府的財政負擔是可以的話那原則上以這些弱勢的民眾來講我大概初估私下了解一下如果老農今天8000到10000大概要編103億差不多吧如果國保年金要通通拉到樓地板拉到5000的話聽說要大概250億差不多吧好來大家聽好 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16908.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16928.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
農民如果要提到1萬國保要提到5000這都很基本的總共加起來103加254357億我的算數沒有錯那請教部長你知不知道這一次國眾主導的年金反年金改革公教退休人員未來10年國家可能要增加3600億是不是有聽說這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16930.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16943.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
有喔 平均一年要三百六十億啦委員長不夠五十萬的退休公告領完我們政府未來十年一年要給三百六十億我想說這三百五十七億拿來照顧農民 照顧我們的國保部長你支持不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16944.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16965.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
拿357億來照顧國保年金跟老農津貼不過我想我們針對農民津貼的部分我想我們會根據我們希望提高的額度跟所有的經費我希望是受到政府的支持是 所以你也不反對其他人也增加農民要提款 其他也要提款有支持嗎不是說包括比農民還要少 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16966.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16987.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我想以農業部的立場就是要考慮到跟八大社福基金的和民性嘛是的 所以呢因為比老農今天還少的就是國保年金我們希望最弱勢的往上提包括我們農民該行後往下看所以我們來問陳部長所以其實目前我們的排富呢其實都是算這個五百萬其實你知道在農村地區啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16988.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17002.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
農地是不說該多少但是如果說農船所在的建地其實它的地價會調整所以其實有些老人家退了他還是務農但是因為他的地價上漲被排除 有沒有這種情況有那我們希望把它合理調整 支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17003.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17021.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我們現在剛剛的報告也是朝這個方向在做很好謝謝好那我們今天的訴求大概到這裡往下看來那所以如果說部長按照如果我們今天老農津貼這些條例按照農業部報行政院送來這裡通過明年來得及實施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17023.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17042.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
明年要不要實施有沒有預算一個前提就是我們的總預算要進到實質審查以後總預算通過以後然後我們再根據相關的規定去做請證照說啦其實就算今年修法通過明年應該來不及因為後年嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17042.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17067.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
因為要在會計年度前四個月前提出嘛所以說如果我們這個統計要賺什麼也是要後年賺的每年拿出來嘛是不是這樣我們是期待用向行政院爭取那個專案的一個請證的一個那要立法院同意嘛不過這個沒有這個基本上就是預算如果如果通過因為預算沒有通過的時候那相對的所有的這些二倍金或是災害準備金來我們請一下邱專委邱專委來得及嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17068.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17092.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
今年我們通過這個條例如果有調升的話明年預算現在連審都還沒審是不是後年才來得及報告委員其實115年度的預算因為目前還沒有真正付為討論所以可以來得及所以我們明年再審這個年度預算反而比較好你是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17093.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17111.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
還是說我們這個通過了後年可以編入後年度的預算還是說連今年都 連明年都還沒審後年都不用想了到底是哪一種其實應該要搭配法案它到底是什麼時候生效那如果法案審過了明年生效什麼時候可以開始實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17113.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17127.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
明年生效的話因為好了我好像問錯人了請休息往下一頁所以我還是覺得贊成陳部長的我們今年審明年度如果可以趕快審過才有機會不然的話連明年度不要說了連後年度都很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17128.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17149.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
對我簡單的講就是我們大家都有共識通過這個法案會增加的時候所需的經費如果總預算不通過的話什麼都不用談很好就這句話總預算不通過什麼都不用講來最後我們請教一下我們的那個一點點時間請教一下我們那個社保師社保師你的名字很好台語又很厲害不是K高 曾惠好那個曾惠副市長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17151.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17172.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
就是我們的勞保年是救治勞退勞退的救治是不是有人已經超15年加上15年已經拿到45個基數現在還沒退休的那請問這些人這個是問對人的嘛應該是問我是問剛剛是問什麼我是問勞保局吧我叫錯人了對不起應該因為你的名字太好記了應該問白局長 抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17176.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17202.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這個這樣的話是不是我們應該這樣的人有沒有還在職場上有他接下來的到退休之前他的領的薪水想要增加有沒有可能他已經救治啦都放在雇主那裡啊退休的時候把雇主的這些結清而已嘛可不可以他現在跟雇主商量好願意讓他帶到我們新制然後他在新制可以每個月存6%自體有沒有覺得這樣可以考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17204.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17219.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那個委員剛才提到的就是提高勞工的一個退休保障我想這個是大家都想努力的方向勞動部也會往這樣的方向來演繹那委員提的這個建議我會待會去請我們勞動部這邊來做你覺得如果擴大勞退自體的部分有沒有幫助我們勞工的退休保障增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17220.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17245.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
擴大勞工自體對勞工的生活保障是會有幫助好所以我最後結論主席站起來了所以是不是請研議救治勞退基數以滿為尚未退休的勞工他的救治勞退結清經僱主同意協議後全數轉入新制的大水庫剩餘的工作年資得以自體勞退增加其自修保障這個部分是不是可以一個月內跟我們勞動部回去一下提出一個報告是好可以謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝副市長謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17250.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17264.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
好 各位請回 謝謝接下來請黃修煌委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我們請部長來 有請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17272.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17290.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
部長好部長辛苦了那部長我先就我們現在的這個老農津貼每個月發放的這個差不多8,110元那其實從開辦到現在從1995年我們那時候一開始是差不多3,000 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17292.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17307.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
那一直到現在8000多那其實農民一直在反映就是說整個物價的上漲那土地的增值那變成說如果說老農今天沒有調漲的話其實要照顧農民的這個退休生活其實是有一些困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17308.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17334.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
所以今天會有這麼多的委員針對我們老農津貼的部分希望能夠調高民進黨黨團這邊是希望能夠有這個很多委員有提到就是希望能夠一萬至一萬二那國民黨那邊是說一萬五那我想請教部長針對這個老農津貼的部分那我知道未來會有一個願板 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17335.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17357.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那像你們現在目前大約是差不多可以多少我第一個跟委員報告現在已經送到委員會這邊來的39個版本裡面最高就是一萬二啦那一萬五是上個禮拜在記者會提出來的那我們在設計這個東西的時候我們認同就是說現在的基數太低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17358.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17378.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
他從100年開始用7000塊加CPI的4年調整一次嘛所以那個基數如果沒有提高的時候你透過CPI調整那個增幅的速度會非常慢所以我們希望也認同就是委員所提到的就是基數可以提高那提高我們現在要考慮到我們的財政支出的部分我們初步的設計是在這個範圍之內的某一個數值是在12000 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17384.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17410.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
之內的某一個數值那我們希望就是說其實農民碰到很多問題我剛剛聽了早上很多委員都有特別提到就是說土地增值那我們有那個排富其實如果說還要再排富的話其實我覺得這個部分可能要列入一個考慮因為很多農民是因為有排富然後這個老農今天他是領不到的大概14000人左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17412.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17436.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
所以我覺得這部分應該也要再去做一個調整我想排富的部分分三個部分所得的部分因為過去從100年開始也都沒調過那我們也希望說他能夠透過CPI一次把它到位從100年開始計算大概16%以上的另外一個財產的部分那財產的部分過去的土地公告限值到目前從100年到現在已經大概67%左右了 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17438.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17458.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
然後也都沒有調過所以像這類的我們也是希望一步到位把它調高然後還有針對自用住宅的部分所以我們整個的一個政策方向也是符合委員所提到的版本只是說那個額度的部分還要經過等院版的部分進來以後併案再來討論我們也會向委員說明我們設計的一個原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17459.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17477.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那部長還有一種狀況就是剛剛有委員也特別提到就是說他可能從年輕他就開始繳這個農保可是到他可能到60幾歲即將要開始領這個老農津貼的時候那這個土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17478.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17501.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
可能小孩或者是怎樣需要用錢還是就把土地給賣掉了那賣掉之後他就會變成就只有加入這個國民年金就加入國保那他領的就是國民年金那因為最近因為我們一直在提到這個老農津貼可能會提高的這個問題所以基層有很多農民他們有碰到這樣的一個狀況那他是說可不可以他 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17502.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17517.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
可能他一輩子就是從農嘛那到了他即將可以領的時候這個土地就可能因為需要錢那可能就賣掉那有沒有可能朝著一個方向就是說他在這個按照他投保的這個比例年資比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17517.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17538.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
然後來領這個我們的老農津貼有沒有可能是這樣我也曾經想過這個問題但是限於現在的一個規定就是說當你要領老農津貼的65歲的時候會進行所有的查核嘛那查核就是你一定要有從事農業的行為才能夠去做可是當下你如果沒有農地就會被認為沒有從事農業的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17540.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17556.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那至于说往前追的部分就是说他符合资格的那段时间是不是可以去做情领那以现在的法规是没有办法做的那有没有可能朝着这个方向去做一个讨论然后未来是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17557.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17577.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
這個我想我們內部針對那個老農經財這個部分這牽涉到也牽涉到農保的資格我們可以來做一個專案的一個評估但是在評估過程中我們也會去了解其他的八大社福基金的設計因為牽涉到很多社會福利制度本身的橫平性的部分我想我們可以來看看後面怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17578.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17594.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
另外就是說你們到即將要開始可以清理腦膿津貼的時候你們差不多是63歲差不多63歲左右就會開始做清查對不對對 本來是64歲的時候我那時候交代同仁說應該更早 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17595.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17621.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我們不是清查就是去檢視那如果農民沒有合格的時候趕快去補相關的資料所以我希望就是說這個是不是可以再提早就有的農民他真的一件事也不知道可是他可能也搞不清楚可是等他農會跟他通知他沒有資格的時候他就很慘了不過我本來是希望說提到60歲同仁跟我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17622.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17643.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
有些農民就是你查過了以後他又賣掉了或什麼的會被人多次的查核但是我從鼓勵的角度去檢視協助他們以協助他們檢視的部分可以再往前可以再往前去看看沒有如果不符合資格趕快去調整這個我想我們還是以照顧農民的一個心態去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17644.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17670.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
所以我是觉得应该再往前再去做一个查核要不然等他即将要领的时候然后是没有资格我们不要用查核因为查核就要处理我们是用协助他去检视他有没有符合这个资格如果不符合资格哪一些该改正的所以你们现在是请农会就是请农会协助那如果时间再往前提的话会有什么样的困难吗我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17671.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17691.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
困難是沒有啦只是說怕他們查完了以後農民又不知道又變成違規的怕因為時間拉太長的時候他們馬上又有違規的所以這個部分我想我們後續會再跟農會討論一下我們把這個協助他檢核的這個時間點可以往前然後也要告訴農民 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17692.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17714.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
部長我一個建議就是說剛剛講的也許在60歲左右你們可以先請農會這邊協助請農民自己檢視一下是不是他是有符合資格那如果沒有符合資格的話實際上他確實也是從農我們現在不是也可以他去承租土地農地然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17715.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17733.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
就是只要有證明實際耕作就可以嘛對不對所以我是覺得說也許就剛剛部長講的從60歲的時候可以我們先第一次的去做一個檢視那也許在到了64歲的時候我已經60歲已經跟你講過了你就是要有資格嘛你到64歲你還沒資格那就抱歉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17739.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17751.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
我想認同委員的這樣一個建議我們可以更提前的去協助農民來檢視那這個部分我想我們後續要看怎麼規劃再跟委員報告所以我今天兩個重點一個就是把農民的資格是不是可以再往前另外就是說如果他一直從以前到62歲63歲都是從農那可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17763.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17788.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
需要這個錢然後就土地就沒了那這樣可能這個資格就不見了那其實是不是有可能把它原本它有投保的這個部分也可以這個按照比例可以計算下去我是覺得這個是不是可以我剛才說的就是說我們會來去討論它的一個法制上面還有它現在的釋法性會去做一個規劃規劃或討論然後再把結果跟委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17794.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17822.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
接下來請謝問委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長來 請部長部長好 現在調高是不是已經是可行了對不對 調高嘛適度的調高也是我們農業部的立場對啊 那到底暫行條例要不要拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17823.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17840.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
战情条例如果根据刚才我们的法治说战情条例已经实行了这么多年已经变成一个常态了那我个人的立场也是希望说如果拿掉没有影响的话除非说拿掉以后很多法律的条例要重修那就比较麻烦 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17841.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17865.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
暫行條例拿掉會重修嗎我不知道因為有暫行條例跟沒有暫行條例本身的法律的這些條文看需要不需要調整如果不需要調整那相對單純如果還需要調整的時候那就比較麻煩所以原則上我也希望能拿掉就可以拿掉所以只要不要調整或者是把調整的內容就是也是拿出來再修過嘛那就可以把暫行條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17866.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17887.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
對 我想如果沒有特別影響在法律規範是可以的話我希望是可以把它拿掉第一個我們未來老農今天就是要把基數先拉高嘛 是不是把他的基數 對基數先拉高嘛雖然說大家現在還有一些就是說到底拉多高這個大家都至少是1萬塊以上嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17889.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17908.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
靠我們的財政是不是就一萬塊以上靠我們的財政是不是那到底未來CPI你剛才也講的就是說有一點就是回答前面我以為有點模糊到底CPI的這個調整的機制是兩年或者是四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17908.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17923.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我這樣講我們在設計的過程裡面就額度的部分第一個部分把基底拉高一點第二個部分就是現在是每四年根據CPI調整一次那我們希望說每四年還是維持著 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17924.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17942.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
但是两年我就做其中检讨那这个其中检讨如果他的CPI达到某一个触发点就是3%或5%的时候那我们就当年度就开始调整可是四年到了还是会去确定他会调超过3%不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17943.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17960.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
假設說四年是4%好了然後兩年的時候是3%那以現在的制度一定要等到四年才會調嘛然後新的機制我們的設計是兩年就只有減四它如果超過3%假設那我就調了可是後面兩年只剩下一%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17961.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17985.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
我照调所以我维持四年一次的一个循环的时候是对您最有利的等于就是说你按照原本的四年调整一次但是如果两年超过了四年那个幅度的时候你们就调了不是 超过一个3%到5%只要超过那个出发门槛我就调整那后面的两年不管多少我还是会调 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17985.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18002.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
那最近幾年來就是說你們今年大概是3.59吧是不是3年多少3.9所以如果按照你的機制今年就如果大院這邊大家討論的話是3%的話就可以調如果是5%就不能調 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18002.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18029.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
所以如果就是說未來是3%調整就是觸及3%就調整一次的話那今年就等於明年就要開始調了對不對是 如果是最後的法律的規範是這樣的話就可以調整對 那即便總預算不通過的情況下我們經常門還是會進行嗎總預算不過的話什麼都不用談我是說經常門咧不是 我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18031.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18047.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
總預算沒過的話新興計劃是不能動第二個延續性計劃你新增加的經費也不能動那個老農津貼本身是一個老農津貼本來就有了但是因為你提高的話你新增加的經費是不能動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18048.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18068.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
可是我們必須要給國人知道台灣的預算的制度跟美國不一樣美國是總預算不通過什麼都不能動可是台灣不是只有新興計畫還有延續性的新增計畫就是今天如果要增強延續性的計畫新增的經費也不能動 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18069.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18086.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
舉個例子我今天通過了總預算不過的話我還是只能領8110因為這個經費可是如果我們通過的施行日期是按照就是說就是即時即刻 一樣啊你總預算不給什麼都不用說啊我知道 但是未來你可以再追溯嘛對不對沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18087.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18111.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
未來可以追溯嘛 但總預算通過了就可以追溯啦 對不對沒有 追溯是另外一件事情但是我們還是希望說年度的預算能夠希望委員的支持趕快省啦那有一些東西我也是希望說趕快省啦 不過還有有的地方卡地卡地人都不可以搬嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18113.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18134.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
還有有的部分都要按照法律來編嘛我非常感謝委員對農業這個議題本身的一個對農民的一些照顧跟希望能夠照顧他們的福利但是我剛才講的我們都很願意像我今天的版本都很正面的回應那回應完了以後需要的經費那一定要總預算通過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18134.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18161.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
我知道啦 所以拜託一下我是說即便是我們先按照原本的但是未來總預算通過的時候我們就可以農民就無感啦 因為變成說賣掉啦賣掉啦那這樣的話我們的計畫也不用那麼快送委員會啦因為送委員會也不能執行嘛你就是用一個卡我們一個沒有沒有 這個是我們很認真的去什麼時候可以來老王津貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18162.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18179.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我想我們盡快的跟行政院溝通看看會不會排入院會啦排入院會完了以後就能夠立刻的再請召委安排相關的一個逐條審查的部分所以牌婦也會都會一起處理啦也會進行調整嘛那進行調整的情況是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18179.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18206.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
我想排富的部分第一個部分就是所得的部分我們會根據CPI一次到位就是現在目前CPI已經累積到16%從100年然後財產的部分是根據土地公告限值那土地公告限值現在目前的一個一個增幅大概是64.78那我也希望能夠根據土地公告限值來提高然後包括自用住宅的部分也有一定位來提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18207.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18224.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
那我相信我們那自用住宅會分區嗎也會來處理那我相信分區處理吧因為不同縣分區會比較麻煩會根據土地公告限制的部分不過我想我們提出來的版本針對排富的部分我相信一定會讓委員滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18226.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18251.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
好那我最後再問一個就是說農民商業保險的部分我就是說農業部是不是預計就是2026年開始提供續保的農民額外5%的保費補助我們當初這個設計就是我們不希望農民就是用賭天跟天對賭的方式就是好像有天災了才去保沒有天災就不保 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18252.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18272.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那我們希望它是一個常態性的所以我們利用這個5%希望說它能夠持續保這樣的話投保人越多的時候相對的大家共同分擔那個風險的機會越大因為現在你們農民商業保險的推動除了一些政策型的大部分都是商業保險然後好像都其他的保險推動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18273.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18297.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
還不夠有利所以我才會說農業保險在我的立場一定要重視品質比重視數量也是你們很重視的一個一個就是新型態的保險過去我們現在辦的保單大概28個品項44張保單但是我覺得有些保單投保人數太低我不想再衝那個量我希望說重視那個品質每一張保單都有很多人來投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18298.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18321.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
所以我們會設計更大的一些誘因然後我也把很多天氣參數放進去就是天氣參數達到了就啟動不要在那邊勘栽太麻煩的方式這個我想我們一起來努力好那就麻煩了好不好那希望說未來可以提供農民以及我們所有的農業的產業有一個更好的保障會謝謝那也希望委員能夠能夠讓總預算趕快審謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18329.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18351.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
謝謝 接下來請郭國文委員來做詢問謝謝主席 有請我們農業部陳部長好 請部長不過可以拿來備詢台或是詢台也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18355.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18372.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
時間扣掉了 我只是拉勒而已我只有四分鐘好 部長今天討論這個老容津貼大家都非常清楚當初老容津貼的基本的額度是從三千到十千到五千 到六千 到七千經過四次的調整到了七千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18373.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18402.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
但事實上之前最早都是在額度上的調整設定了7000以後又加了兩道門鎖一個就是所謂的調升四年的調升條款另外一個就是所謂的排付條款以至於現在要處理老農經貼的時候就要用三道門檻我們共同來面對為什麼會這樣子因為歷經了14年就是從7000的當年馬英九時代的7000到現在你看歷經了14年我們調了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18407.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18422.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
14年喔 1101所以當初7000卡了這兩道門檻一個公式的機制換算一個排戶的門檻的一個設定這兩個就是代表什麼代表民生暗降 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18423.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18443.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
它根本在限制你老農津貼的這種發放的機制看起來好像對農民好其實對農民真的很不好為什麼會有到這麼多的立委會紛紛提案就是它有很大的檢討的空間嘛14年的這個排付條款的時候我在上一屆的立委的時候我就已經提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18444.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18462.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
那時候我們就跟八大的社福指標掛鉤在一起我說那是沒道理的事情第二個我本席也提出所謂的機制的調整這個CPI的部分從年份的部分調整我當然贊同從CPI的部分的調整你也應該參考高齡的這個CPI高齡的CPI跟CPI不一樣那主席處已經定義出來了那個對 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18464.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18487.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
老農來說是相對而言是有幫助的所以與時俱進的一種公式調整方式是第一個我們要去面對的問題第二個 排付條款的鬆綁更是我們要積極要去處理的問題有些房屋是老農自住我看數字給你聽你剛剛講說經過一段時間之後這一個徵服美工請的公告定價徵服已經高達64.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18495.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18517.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
到2024的時候呢增幅已經高達77%了所以制定的這個額外的所得50萬還是14年前的我是跟你講我們雖然農業部做了很多但是呢被罵了也不少我覺得農民今天就是被罵的源頭所以我是希望部長趁這個時候是不是能夠將門檻的問題面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18523.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18545.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
把這個公司機制的面對把這個排付條款的問題來面對部長三大關鍵一起處理有沒有可能部長我們現在就是朝這個方向排付的部分就成如委員剛才講的我們在從100年開始都沒有處理過包括所得的部分所以他累積了大概將近應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18547.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18574.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
應該是多少那個16%左右CPI 16%所以所得的部分我們會一次到位我們希望說一次到位把它調到跟CPI的帳戶然後財產的部分土地公告限值從100年到現在已經增加了64.87%了那我們也希望一次到位把它調起來然後包括自用住宅的部分然後我另外特別想要提的就是說我一直認為農民很辛苦的賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18577.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18595.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
買一個房子他不會去賣的部分我們也考慮很多自住的部分要怎麼處理這個我想我們在院的時候都有一些規劃跟報告所以這個部分等院版通過院會以後到時候我會再跟委員做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18596.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18610.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那整個調高金額的這個整個參數當中你要不要考慮一下把CPI的這個參數裡頭做一個調整把它弄成一個高點CPI的可能性對老農會比較有幫助一點點我想這個部分在當下現在比較困難因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18611.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18638.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
因為我們其他的八大社福基金都是65歲以上的如果說純粹只是老農津貼本身去用採用高齡的CPI的話那你就問一下主基礎為什麼要用一個高齡的CPI如果要調了你也可以率先先調啊讓他其他一起調是其他沒有調是其他落後不是你不是你進步啊不是 整體的部分我們希望行政院能夠讓我們農民津貼可以先走那我們額度也是做一些調整然後CPI我也做了調整就是兩年額度先走嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18639.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18655.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
但是參數的部分也可以做調整你一併送啦不要以後再來調啦也許改天人家八大社府已經調了你才一定要跟人家後面為什麼一定要跟著後面走我就說你現在的送案子你就這樣送那差不太多啦那是一個生意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18657.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18673.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
部長你回去研究一下啦我們可以來研究啦因為我想我們會再跟行政院這邊了解一下其他的八大社福基金現在的情況是啊 調整一下啦台北社福基金基本上門檻都太高而且金額太少了啦基本上要與時俱進那調高額度的部分你們有考慮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18674.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18698.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
有額度的部分我們也認為現在的那個基礎從最後一次調整的7000塊所以你看嘛調了那麼多次才100多塊而已因為它只有處理CPI沒有處理基線所以基線我們覺得它太低了應該做適度的提高但是提高的過程中我們會精算我們的財富的一個負擔所以我說這是民生安降啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18699.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18720.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
當然高明的手法所以這個三個都要一起面對最後我還是要提醒你一點前天我們在討論的時候有關於這一個青農覆蓋率的部分除菌的部分老實講 那個勞保局我去問過覆蓋率真的就不到30你也不要把以前灌進來啦我們就老實的面對這制度裡頭覆蓋率不足的問題啦才能真正設計好一個制度出來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18721.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18745.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
你只要寫有農保三十萬沒錯可是要扣掉資格有疑慮的大概有八九萬人他不可能來參加的啦所以實際才要二十二萬人啦你用實際數啊實際上他就有投農報啊因為參加的八萬人他不可能來投因為他資格可能有問題他不敢現身啦主席站起來我不要站太久他會生啦先到這邊我們改天還有資格再討論啦謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18750.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18766.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
接下來請陳毅委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席 那麻煩請我們農業部長來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18773.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18790.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
委員好部長好 辛苦了今天質詢委員特別多我想是這樣我們政府一直在說我們要照顧老農我想照顧老農絕對不是只有口號而已有關於老農今天目前排富的規定在我們之前那天開記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18792.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18811.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
大概好多好多的委員參加那在目前這個排富的規定退休農民這個房土財產的這個總計超過這個500萬元不含農地的部分就會被排富那這個規定就當然我們在100年修法之後就不曾再調整過 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18813.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18831.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那內政部呢對於這個住宅價格的統計只有六都還有這個全國平均那並沒有針對我們台東縣但是我們可以參考一下就是不動產估價師工會整理的資料在101年的時候呢台東房屋的平均每坪價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18832.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18860.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
大約在6.3萬元在111年的時候我們台東房屋的平均每坪價格已經漲到14.4萬了這個整幅是整整超過一倍如果說我們跟全國各縣市來比較台東的漲幅是全國第十名但是如果說排除六都之後其實我們是全國的第四名 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18861.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18885.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
換句話說呢10年前呢他的房子可能只有200多萬那他符合這個老農津貼的規定可是10年之後呢這個房子已經都變成500多萬元那就被排富了所以也就無法領取這個老農津貼了我想我們這些農民辛苦了一輩子那老的就剩下一個安身立命的一個非常老舊的房子了那卻因為這個房價的這個上漲被拒於這個門外 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18889.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18910.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
那我想這樣的排富設計是完全偏離老農津貼的一個照顧基本農民的這個初衷所以我希望這個部分可以徹底的檢討那部長對於這一點您的具體回應我跟委員報告其實我們在內部的討論其中有一個討論就是說這個土地公告限制可能在各地會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18911.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18939.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
就你剛才講的分區可是當你去看這個分區的話你都會遇到一個隔一條街隔一條巷子有沒有就不同區域的部分會這樣枯裂所以我那時候就思考說如果大家再去看這個不同區域的時候那總是會有一些不一樣的差異甚至於同一區裡面的不同的行政轄區又會不一樣所以我們還是傾向用全國一致性的但是我在排富的這個拉力的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18940.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18947.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
我希望說能夠更高一點讓大家就不用擔心說它的土地的增值會有不同區域的一個限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18948.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18973.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
部長這樣子講其實我還是會有一點擔心因為你如果說有一個比較具體的這個案例是你怎麼樣的計算我舉個例子因為我們所有的送到行政院的版本因為還沒有獲得最後的行政院的一個核定我不方便把細節說出來但是我舉這個例子就是說土地公告限制以全國的平均是64.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18975.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18994.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
那我们可不可以设计一个全数能够再多一点让它去覆盖这些不同区域的误差就是所有全台湾的这些老农民他们怎么样自己住的那一栋都不会达到那个标准我的意思是说可能有的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18995.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19006.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
以平均是64.78的增幅有人增幅40有人增幅100那我乾脆想辦法讓這個排富的門檻拉到大家就不用擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19007.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19029.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
是這也是我剛剛所提的意思這個部分我想我們會用另外一個方式來設計因為當你考慮到區域的話你畫縣畫縣市那縣市不同的區域又會不一樣哦讓大家都會很亂啊所以我乾脆一勞永逸的我在土地公告縣市那邊去做一個設計讓大家都不用擔心說有的區域會比較高有的區域會比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19030.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19050.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
所以最起碼就是說原先他們自住的這些老房子不會因為這個我們是朝這個目的現在大概有一萬四千人那其中一萬兩千人是因為財產的關係被排掉那以我們目前的一個設計我們會把這個不能領的這些被排掉的人數大幅的降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19051.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19073.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
這個部分也要麻煩部長可以替大家多多把關我們一起努力不是把關 我們會去支持今天還有很多委員提到都是希望提高老農津貼的金額雖然老農津貼當初的設計已經納入了消費者物價指數的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19073.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19096.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
但是他的基期太低了只有7000元所以經過幾十年的調整也才增加1100元而已我們同時讓部長看一下其他評估社會底層經濟情況的標準除了基本工資以外通常低收入戶的計算基礎就是最低生活費的標準101年到114年的基本工資增加到 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19097.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19113.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
增加了10720元那台東的最低生活指標的這個標準就是13年間也增加了5271元但老農津貼的部分只增加大約1000元而已所以要讓老農津貼可以實際反映這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19115.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19129.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
我們反映物價變化的話呢必須要提高原本的這個計算基數也就是提高這個7000元的這個基期金額那我想這個是我們大家目前的共識啦也希望部長在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19130.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19149.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
對 這個也是剛才我講的就是說現在的基底一個是基底一個是CBI的調整的年度那個年度嘛那基底太低的話你靠CBI去拉你拉的每一次拉的都是幾百塊而已所以我們這一次希望說這個基底能夠拉高一點往上拉那往上拉當然也不可能完全看這個最低生活匯因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19150.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19178.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
我們給老農的退休保障是有兩塊一個是一個是老農津貼一個是退休儲金那我們設計說以後這兩個加起來一定會比老保的還多所以在短時間之內我們希望說能夠適度的反應提高但是沒有辦法說完全比照這種所謂的生活費的方式因為很多農民他在65歲以上還是有一些工作所得所以我們希望說這是一個福利的一個津貼我們希望說至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19179.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19199.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
表現出政府願意照顧農民的一個決心但是我們會提高但是提高的額度對 金額的部分也務必就是說我們大家要精算一定會提高 對因為目前農民經濟的金額隨著我們CPI的調整機制是四年檢討一次我知道很多的社會福利的制度都是四年檢討一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19200.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19228.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
那但是呢我們政府很多向民眾收取規費的這個制度呢是三年檢討一次就是給民眾錢的時候四年檢討一次但是要跟民眾收錢的時候就三年檢討一次那這個部分呢我們就是說也希望就是說這個整個檢討的這個規定是不是就是說往下修好那因為畢竟我們像我們去年通過的這個原住民的這個禁法補償條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19229.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19258.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
對於整個CPI的指數的調整機制是兩年檢討一次所以不是沒有潛力可以修那這個部分也可以就是說也請你們做參考就是說才可以隨時即時反映給政府這個退休農民的協助我也跟委員報告就是原來的四年調整一次我們會一直不變但是我們增加了一個其中的檢討兩年就檢視那檢視它如果CPI超過某個額度我們就調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19259.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19286.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
有類似的這樣的一個設計在裡面好 那最後快速問一下就是說因為過去我們不斷推動這個原住民老人各項福利政策那在這個年齡規定的這個要下修為55歲 應下修55歲那主要是因為原住民跟這個全體國民的平均餘命有將近10歲的差距那對於這個行政單位呢過去也用同樣很多的理由就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19287.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19304.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
他們有一個特定的理由都是來拒絕這樣子的提案那我不太清楚部長知不知道這個就是說到底什麼樣的我大概了解我想應該有兩個數據一個數據就是用所有的原住民當作分母去算 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19305.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19322.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
那另外一個數據是針對從事農業領取老農津貼的這個族群去算如果以因為我們今天在處理老農津貼所以我們在算領取老農津貼的這些原住民他的平均餘命是82.7歲他比全國的餘命還高所以我們才認同認為就是說應該維持65歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19325.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19354.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
不好意思您是指就是說全部務農的原住民的年齡嗎對 領取老農津貼的平均餘命是82.7他比全國的80點多還高好 那我想分母不一樣一個是全體的原住民我想那個部分也麻煩部長把你們參考依據的那個好 我再把我們的數據再提供給委員但因為我這邊的這個數據也提供給你們參考原住民檢疫生意表 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19354.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19375.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
生命表的這個提要分析那因為就是說我們就是原住民跟全國平均的全國國民的這個平均與移民的差距是成這個縮小的趨勢所以他們就是會覺得說不同意來修改這個原住民老人福利的年齡規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19376.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19402.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
但是我們給部長看這個圖因為這是上個月內政部公佈的原住民檢疫生命表分析那原住民的這個跟這個全體國民平均餘命縮小趨勢因為在這三年就已經存在了那為什麼這三年原住民的平均餘命跟全體國民的這個差距是拉大的因為我也不太清楚你們的那個資料到底是幾年到幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19402.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19412.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
我想這個背後其實應該都有一些複雜的原因需要再去探究所以這個部分我也希望說你們也不要一下子就完全 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19413.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19440.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
去打翻我們的這些 我知道我也非常謝謝委員對原住民朋友的這些考慮那我想後續我們會提供一些數據給委員因為我提到也不是說這55歲就永遠55歲我們也是按照這個狀況來調整然後每5年依這個狀況來調整一次年齡的規定逐步調高65這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請蔡議員委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19450.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19477.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
謝謝主席 是不是請這個農業部 陳部長來 請部長餵好部長 今天柯克倫這個老農津貼的暫行條例怎麼這樣 上午這樣聽起來您對暫行這兩天拿掉看起來農業部是認為是支持的這樣嗎對 如果說在法制上面如果沒有什麼特別問題然後條文不需要重新 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19478.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19498.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
重寫的話那相對的單純我想整個大概只有條文名稱戰刑事實上條文的架構本身基本上都很完整了所以只是這個戰刑這兩字的移動因為已經一直持續一直持續在政策一直持續在走的事實上這樣的一個老農津貼大概就是說對農民的照顧他未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19499.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19523.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
除非到了這個農民的一個退休儲金這一個制度者的更完善了不然老農今天的制度我想是會一直持續下去的這是沒有問題的吧對 因為戰刑有時候我也聽到很多農民講說這個戰刑這兩個字會讓人家覺得說隨時都有可能拿掉所以這個部分從這個角度來考量的話我是覺得如果在法制上沒問題的話我是支持把它拿掉打退掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19524.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19543.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
再來就是這個勞動基金協會討論這個金額啦事實上我自己就有提案啦我提案是調高到一萬兩千塊啦那部長如果你可以你們現在有辦法稍微試算一下嗎如果是調高到一萬塊的話大概會增加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19543.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19561.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
如果是調高到一萬塊的話要增加一百二一將近一百二十億一百二十億對那如果是一萬二的話要增加兩百四十七啦兩百四十七億簡單的講每提高一千塊的話一年要增加大概六十三點五億啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19562.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19582.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
對 可是這中間事實上我們等一下又要討論牌付條款嘛如果牌付的門檻適度的爬半塊那金額也會再拉上去啦所以可以想像的就是說要到一萬塊要一百二十億要到一萬二十億就要兩百多億的預算啦我們很期待說可以這樣一年期讓它到一萬二十億啦我是有看過國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19588.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19595.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
所以我剛才講說說我們都同意額度提高但是在額度的提高的設計上應該去考慮到我們的財政的支出當然我們農業部本身大概1692億今年來講1682億其中有800億是依法律義務支出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19612.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19626.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
如果810再加上這些錢的話那相對的會排擠掉我們農業部的一個本預算的部分所以我們會考慮到那當然這中間的一個很重要關鍵的其實是這個總預算那總預算的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19627.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19655.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
事實上我覺得在這個議題上像剛才謝玉鳳在說我們也覺得要鼓勵他事實上我們民進黨我們有提出行政院有提出這個財化法的再修那這個再修基本上對於農業線才是有利的一個方向他把所謂農民的產值納入所謂人口的指標然後把農地的價值用加權的方式讓土地的價值要在農地上面再做加值 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19656.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19673.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
所以這一個才化法我覺得是明明是對農業線更好的啊所以我覺得在現在在討論老農今天然後就要討論到接下來明年的總預算啊要到底多少錢可以來增加我們的老農金錢對農民的照顧那這中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19675.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19689.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
採劃法為什麼國民黨農業縣的國民黨我看農業館的早上也有很多人都來講這個議題啊你都有跟他說事實上問題出一種預算嗎我都有說啦 我說我覺得謝宇峰有斷定喔他要集起來喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19690.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19711.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
大家都希望趕快實施但是趕快實施的一個前提要有經費嘛那有經費的話預算一定要審完以後我們才能夠選相關的程序去請證預算嘛因為這個東西並沒有在我們年度預算的編列嘛所以我們會向行政院請證但是如果總預算不過的話很多行政院本身的災害準備金額二倍金額什麼都不能動 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19711.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19728.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
包括新增的計畫因為腦通經驗是延續的但是延續經費的部分如果有新增經費的部分那那個經費是不能動的所以就算我通過了以後我還是只能領8110沒有錯嘛那就是延續新增的部分就沒辦法縱使我們修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19729.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19744.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
過了還是沒有辦法所以我們才一直期待就是說所以這綜藝省現在要緊了綜藝省應該趕快所以我們在這裡就是說國民黨既然他對老農今天這個議題上他也要事實上他也某些程度也有呼應我們我們說至少一萬口給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19745.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19772.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
這就要增加綜藝省嘛所以國民黨我們就要告訴大家就不要六月掛彩給五星嘛既然有要支持農業要支持農民擴大對農民的照顧綜藝省給然後金額來提高像我的提案是寫到了一萬二這需要兩百五十億的一個支出那當然這對部長來說你們好好斟酌一下可是關鍵點總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19774.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19793.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
請國民黨的農業縣立委大家一起來正式對 我也跟委員報告如果總議院不過的話其實審這個法案審過根本審不過其實意義就不大了意義不大啦 變這樣啦好 再來就是我事實上早上很多人都在講啦這一個排富的部分部長我還是呼籲啦我們現在排富的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19794.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19810.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
除了做所的然後土地跟房屋的價值然後土地房屋價值中可以來扣除一個叫做唯一自住那唯一自住的扣除大概目前規定是400萬那我要跟部長講啦事實上你來 你可以想像啦這個農民 他就住這間房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19813.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19820.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
這間房子的價值可能會隨著說旁邊開樓我這間房子旁邊有開樓或是說旁邊有什麼樣的發展這間房子的價值就會增加房子的價值增加 它的金錢就沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19829.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19846.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
對他而言,他為了要繼續領津貼,我一定要賣房子,要不然這間房子就要過去孩子的名,過去孩子的名又會造成有時候還是會產生新的社會問題啊,如果孩子把房子賣掉了,這些老人說,為了這個津貼,我只要賺一間房子就沒辦法大,我賺大的地方就不去。 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19848.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19871.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
我覺得我們既然這個今天是站在照顧農民的一個立場齁我認為啦這個在討論牌幅的時候就把唯一自住的房子齁不要說扣除額扣多少啦唯一自住的房子就都不要去計算了啦齁阿剩下的部分再看這個牌幅要拉到多高齁阿不就是唯一自住的我們就把它排除這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19872.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19889.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我有一件報告我剛才在說就是說我們農民一輩子拼命去買一間房子對不對而且是自住的部分然後他的增值也不是他想要增值的是因為其他的因素的造成他也不會去賣的時候不要因為為了領農農津貼然後因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19891.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19912.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
不是他所能控制的因素而造成所以我們也非常嚴肅的去考慮將這個唯一自住的這些房屋的扣除額用另外一個方式來處理但是詳細的情形我必須等到院板通過以後好 那我們期待說保定至少在院板在溝通的時候你可以等一會兒我會 院板出來以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19912.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19929.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
多站在支持的一個立場去跟院方來做一個溝通我覺得我們排富已經對農民想得非常周全當然還有檢討的空間不過我們提出來以後應該會讓委員相對滿意我們會讓委員也會跟委員溝通我們的當初的設計而且我們設計是有我們的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19937.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19948.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
好那我再講一個議題就好就是說現在我們那個雜糧區有在跟我反映今年的這個硬質玉米因為主要為丹納斯風災料就是0728料 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19951.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19978.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
料比較開始進油米啦阿做油米整個料 哇都沒好一支好就沒了 真厲害所以你來看喔我有一個統計數據以今年的降雨量跟跟去年的降雨量你看90、11來說去到去年的時候可能都每個月可能都還有一點點的降雨量啦大概說30厘米啦 或20厘米啦今年從11、12月 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19982.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20008.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
10月是零 3月是3厘米 12月是2厘米所以降雨量非常的少因為降雨量少的關係就影響到了硬質玉米的一個發展所以今年硬質玉米收成非常的差看起來連一半都沒有所以部長是不是可以先所以我先跟您反映這個狀況可能部長有時間還是農糧署這邊可以抱一個人來產區來看一下今年硬質玉米的收成狀況是確實是不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20010.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20034.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那這部分是不是也請農業部來給我們家的農民來倒三天的我想我在立法院如果沒有特別的一個專案報告我也很希望到產區去看這第一個第二個部分就是說玉米的部分它不能完全看雨量因為它有灌牌系統所以我們要去了解它當地的灌牌系統是不是沒問題如果當地有灌牌系統那變成說你不灌對啦 我就灌給他那看要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20036.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20054.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
會公會反映的大概就是沒有水源我們會去看啦 好不好我們會去了解好 那就請部長再關心我們一下好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡委員 謝謝部長接下來請林思敏委員 林思敏委員林思敏委員不在 請劉徐廷委員來做懸答謝謝主席 農業部長有請來 有請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20067.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
20095.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
委員好 部長午安這個剛剛有委員在談這個事你們在政策對話的過程中本席在那邊聽說談到了一個很重要的問題就是說大家今天除了討論修法的內容到底是一萬二一萬五排富的門檻要怎麼做處理之外真正我覺得比較值得大家思考一下的問題是修法過了之後到底拿不拿得到對不對 按照陳部長剛剛的說法修法過了拿不到是因為到目前為止115年的中央政府總預算還沒有進入附會審查的這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
20096.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
20120.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
那部長知道為什麼總預算到現在沒辦法復違嗎我想總預算在這個會期應該是在審預算的一個情況那審預算裡面就算我個人認為就算委員有一些不同的意見但是還是要讓總預算進行實質的審查跟討論那討論的過程中我想各部會一定會提出他的說明以農業部來講我們的預算已經準備在那邊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
20120.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
20138.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
好 你講啦其實跟你農業部沒有什麼關係啦總預算之所以到現在沒有辦法付為審查是因為軍人加薪的這筆錢該編的時候沒有編嘛警察消防 你先聽我講完嘛警察跟消防人員的退休的這個停侃或者是說重新調整退休金這部分你該編入公務預算沒有編嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20139.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20161.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
這個就是橫平性的問題喔因為一般立法院在審計算的時候不能增加預算因為預算如果說以今天農民...是啊那我要問你啊居然待遇條例是法律案還是預算案我告訴你這個部分我就用農民津貼一樣農民津貼也有經費的問題但是這個津貼如果經過討論行政單位如果認可的話那就是行政單位會編預算嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20161.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20182.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
所以行政單位還要認可 請問現在今天版本有願版嗎 沒有對不對那今天民進黨稍微排審了條文今天只是質詢跟備詢 並沒有進到實質的討論那實質討論的時候願版的一定會進來我告訴你啊 按照正常的邏輯這個立法院審查大概法律案就是法律案預算案就是預算案 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
20183.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
20197.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
今天的這個但是法律案如果裡面有簽約到預算的絕對數目的時候那就必須要經得我們行政院的同意所以你的意思是說我們在審理任何的法案之後我們還要一定要經得你的同意也就是說未來我們在這個場合不管討論出來要經過討論 聽我講完嘛要經過討論嘛你先聽我講完嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
20200.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
20214.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
不管這個委員會討論出了什麼樣的結果只要你不同意所以你就可以後面可以不執行意思就這樣子囉不是 我的意思是說我們一定要進到委員會做充分的討論甚至在院會經過充分的討論但是沒有經過充分的討論之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
20215.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20231.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
像農民年金如果今天有人喊到兩萬塊然後不經過討論也不讓我們表達意見的時候部長我現在很擔心啦我剛剛講啊正常邏輯法律案就是法律案條例就是條例預算就是預算這不一樣喔因為法律案裡面有一些是含有預算我們當然都知道你聽我講完嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20231.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20250.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我們當然都知道預算案我們不能主動提增加這就是我剛剛回答你第一個問回答剛剛大家討論第一個問題為什麼總預算沒辦法付為因為沒有辦法在付為的時候把軍人該加的薪水加回來沒辦法把警消人員該有退休金討回來沒辦法因為我們尊重預算案的性質嘛不能因為這樣子而擋了總預算進到審查但是問題就是你法律不執行嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20250.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20267.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
好 那現在法律案裡面如果包了預算的金額的部分你們自己的行政院都自己可以創設規則也就是說如果法律案包括預算案就一定要經過行政院的同意那請問我們還要立法院幹什麼我說一定要經過行政院的一起來討論那討論會找到一個共識嘛我請問你啊 我是內政委員會啦我們當初審原住民進房補償條例的時候有沒有討論有討論嘛 沒有共識而已對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20276.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20283.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
那沒有共識是不是要按照立法院的規矩按照議事的程序經過投票表決來做最後的結果對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20285.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20310.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
你怎麼能夠期待一個全世界哪有一個國會所有的案子都是無一一通過對不對哪有這樣子的所以是要討論嘛對嘛經過討論之後沒有結果所以才表決啊現在總預算連進到討論的機會都沒有嘛我現在講的是前面的法律案包含進法補償條例包含軍人待遇條例包含警察人員人事條例是不是都經過討論沒有共識才表決對我農業部來講我現在關心的就是總預算有沒有付為 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20311.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20331.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
所以今天討論這個老農年福利今天也是一樣經過討論之後民進黨現在有民進黨版本你院裡面的版本到現在沒有出來國民黨有國民黨的版本大家的版本不一樣很有可能到了最後也沒有共識要經過要經過表決的程序做出最後的決定現在你剛剛的意思是說只要這個決定出來的東西你不滿意你就可以不執行是嗎我沒這樣說喔你沒有這樣講我沒這樣講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20334.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
20355.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
所以你說大家要討論然後最好能夠朝一個共識然後在共識的過程中你剛剛跟我講說這個行政院要同意才行啊你剛剛沒有這樣講嗎我說協商以後要同意我們認同協商以後要同意那不就是要同意嗎那萬一沒有結果呢萬一沒有結果呢過去的很多法律案的部分沒有共識的話就會先放在那邊找到有共識的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
20356.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
20374.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
法律案沒有法律案如果沒有共識要做決定就要表決嘛那不然幹嘛設計表決的機制呢法律案的部分我們農業部非常多的法律案看起來扯到非常多的利害關係人家的關係都沒有共識的時候看起來陳部長是蠻想當立法委員的這我尊重啦好不好但是我現在很擔心啦我是一點都沒有興趣當立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
20376.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
20389.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
我們現在擔心的地方是今天我們在討論老年農民的福利津貼如果到最後沒有讓民進黨吃自助餐的話那是不是到了最後你會不會執行 我先問如果最後表決結果通過的是一萬五千塊的版本你會不會執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
20390.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
20415.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
如果啦我不做這樣的預期你不做這樣的預期而且我相信我們的版本提出來的話我能夠說服所有的委員你要說服所有的委員只會說委員是不講理的直接經過討論的程序在立法院三讀通過最後結果如果是一萬五千塊你要不要執行嗎我不考慮假設性的問題你現在又不考慮假設性的問題我不回答這種假設性的問題因為我不認為委員最好你這個沒有說實話啦我告訴你我告訴你現在的委員是喊 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
20416.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
20435.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
我寧願聽到你講真話你講真話講說你沒有辦法做主這我就接受為什麼當初在審計碼補償條例的時候原民會也講說我們很支持這樣的東西增加但到最後也不是他說的算我沒有這樣講喔我沒有這樣講一萬五我說過一萬五我是不支持的啊我舉個例子給你聽嘛對不對那到最後是行政院可以片面的決定要或不要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
20435.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
20452.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
那我們到底今天在審查什麼東西呢對不對今天是在背詢是在做討論做意見的溝通我們不同的立場有不同的設計的方法我們現在在做溝通我們就有直指問題的核心今天在場的請問哪一位官員有把握就是說今天到最後經過完整的討論程序最後三讀通過的法令一定會被執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
20453.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
20467.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
你可以掛保證被執行嗎我告訴你這個部分就是你剛剛都以農業部長的身分去講說我不能回答假設性的問題你為什麼不能回答一個經過完整立法程序三讀通過的法案為什麼不能執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
20468.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
20495.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
那要看那個法律所設計的這些這些內容是不是在行政行政單位有執行困難的地方如果執行有有障礙的地方的話當然不能執行啊所以你剛才講的假設性問題像一萬五我已經表態一萬五是是做不到的因為從財政支出來講是做不到的更更何況是總預算是沒有通過的我現在就很擔心這種吃自助餐的狀況嚴重影響了大家立法院審查法案的公信力跟狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
20496.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
20524.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
對不對按照過去的時候當初老年金從第一開始立法我們決定要發的時候如果當初的行政單位就是這種態度的話那我恐怕今天大家也不會有老中經貼的不是嗎我跟你講我也不是今年才站在這個立法院的在過去的立法過程中我們都是盡量的大家找到一個包括行政單位跟立法單位都找到一個共同的一個目標跟共識然後再去落實這個法律案根據憲法權力分立的原則立法是立法院的憲政權利這你應該不會反對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
20525.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
20545.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
這當然是嘛對不對如果立法院我們當然要徵詢行政機關的意見大家要經過一個完整的討論程序這個大家都不反對這個事情對不對但是問題是如果我們都經歷了這樣完整程序完備之後然後你都還沒有辦法掛保證說這樣子的一個對於老農是好的法案你可以順利執行的話那有沒有違反權力分立的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
20546.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
20572.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
我跟委員報告就是說如果今天在農民津貼委員過去老農津貼在OK的但是你說提高到多少錢老農津貼過去在增加的過程之中農業部也好或是過去的農委會曾經都提過不同的意見但只要在立法院經過了完整的三讀程序他就會執行你可以比照這樣子的精神嗎你沒看到在委員會討論的時候是大家都有那個共識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
20574.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
20590.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
什麼討論的什麼共同我講的是立法院的程序決定嘛你該走完 該有行政人員通過的法律他就應該要執行嘛你可以要求提高但是你不能說要提高到多少錢因為講到經費就牽扯到我們行政人員必須要去編這相關的預算這個才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
20592.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
20607.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
反正所以今天花了這麼長的時間你回答的時候你也沒有辦法保證你一定會執行就對了我們簡單一點我告訴你我們現在目前的一個共識是朝這個方向在走那至於說法案提出來以後我們會再跟我委員會溝通嘛朝這個共識去走哪一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
20608.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
20635.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
就是額度提高我現在不同的不同的政黨版本就有不同的共識啊額度會提高提高多少提高是共識誰說了算最後最後大家會有一共沒有說誰說了算我們是以農業部的立場我們會盡量跟委員說明提高一定的金額是大家都可以接受的這是我們的目標嘛我是很擔心這個案子到最後走完了所有的程序三讀通過之後又來個不附屬不執行我告訴你我更擔心的是總預算不執行的話我們審這個案子是一點意義都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
20636.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
20663.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
如果這些僵局沒有辦法解決的話總預算怎麼會有好結果呢好啦 這樣講下去也沒有變啦總預算是牽扯到所有的農民的基礎設施的建設喔你辛苦了啦但是如果你們的心態沒有做任何的調整的話朝野的僵局也絕對不會解開的啦我的心態非常正確喔我就希望說預算趕快審有問題我們趕快執行好 謝謝接下來請麥育貞委員 麥育貞委員麥育貞委員不在請王正旭委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
20673.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
20677.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
好 謝謝主席還是再請陳部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
20683.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
20692.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
喂 部長 實在是很感謝我們政府保證我們登記對我們的農民是很照顧 也是盡量來清楚我們對農民的權益當然請你討論 要繼續拍片我們會繼續溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
20705.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
20717.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
一開始在有聽保庭做報告之前我們的趙薇來擺今天這個行程因為她親愛的用意趙薇講得非常的清楚針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
20720.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
20743.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
法律的部分的修正他講得很好笑等一下這裡有他後來他會向你請教很多事情所以這部分我就簡單給這個部長請教三個問題第一個問題就是老農津貼合理調整的額度跟模式這是第一點第二點就是說之前也有關心可分解的農模跟這個蔬果貼紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
20745.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
20764.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
目前在推動的進行第三部分就是說我們的氣候變遷對農業的行政影響也很明顯我們目前有什麼樣的發表的方向今天有這三點要跟部長來請教一下因為我們今天的主題就是老農心的合理調整的額度跟模式嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
20765.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
20783.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
差不多所有委員都向你請教過了不過也要注意因為我們到113年目前勞動津貼給付的人數51萬我也是農村子弟嘛包括我們台南現在有67000故鄉52000中華63000 芬林48000我自己來的 我自己有45000的鄉親 屏東51000的 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
20792.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
20803.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
每一個月都領的是八千一百十塊我們知道這是一定要調整這個調整是怎樣最好這就是我們今天大家互相討論不僅是說我們對農民要有交代意願當然我們也要了解政府到底有多少企業可以使用當然每一個委員都不一樣的想法我們就是照程序來做就是要怎樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
20819.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
20844.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
所以針對我們這問題 合理的額度 調整模式還有這個排富機制 還有裁員規劃可以不妨簡單說明一下嗎我簡單說一句 兩部分 一個部分是額度 一個部分是排富那額度的部分分作兩個 一個是它的基礎 太低第二個就是說 它的調整的那個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
20847.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
20870.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
那額度的部分我們希望說能夠拉高現在是從上一次開始起算的那個7000塊然後加每4年的CPI那我們希望說這次能夠做適度的額度的提高然後調整的時間點現在是4年一次我們希望2年下來檢討2年的CPI超過3%或5%的時候就啟動那個調整的機制那剩下的2年看 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
20876.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
20890.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
CPI成長多少我們繼續調這是額度的部分排富的部分因為過去都沒在處理那個所得跟財產的十幾年都沒處理所以這邊我們一次把它到位的處理就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
20892.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
20910.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
那個所得的部分會針對過去累積的CPI差不多16%都做成條財產的部分過去累積的大概百分之六十幾%我們也會一併的來調整那希望說這樣的一個調整能夠讓更多的農民能夠領到這些農民退休儲金 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
20910.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
20932.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
是 所以聽起來是很合理希望大家能夠合理地來討論要趕快讓這個好的發展可以通過這是第一部分感謝博鳳這方面的說明再來就是這個可分解的農謀跟這個蔬果標籤推動的狀況因為我們也知道這個可分解的有機農謀對我們將來農業有一個很重要的所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
20935.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
20943.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
之前有請教過農業部的書面報告裡面有說到一些有機農業進行的過程裡面我家裡也要再進行水稻所以推廣這個有機水稻的部分要怎麼處理比較好我們也知道要進水稻一定要守草 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
20959.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
20979.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
過去那樣鄉親實在是很辛苦像這邊在外的過程裡面 手操兩遍三遍可以臨時分委員也請教手操過程工作的過程裡面很多都是腰不好 膝蓋不好等等一些職業病都會造出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
20979.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
21000.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
我們現在知道有一種叫做紫緻的薏草錫那就是說現在有機嘛盡量就不要用農藥去除草嘛所以有很好的作用在日本開發出來我們台灣目前也有兩間的公司在做包括中華紫江跟政農 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
21001.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
21016.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
所以到底我們現在台灣有多少屬於有機水稻他使用這樣的這個材質的百分比不知道 差不多有多少你現在要怎麼推廣這部分是不是 麻煩保長來說明一下我跟委員報告就是說現在我們做有機的水稻的時候最困難的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
21022.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
21044.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
不然補下去以後有些雜草嘛所以現在我們試驗改良商所跟日本的合作就有一些就是溢草石有的補溫就是能夠跟經濟水中的經濟跟這個紫質的溢草石coating在一起補下去以後變成直播的方式它改變了我們現在的水中的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
21045.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
21074.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
所以現在目前我們還是用示範的方式在協助推廣因為大面具去做的時候還要精算它的成本因為這紙質現在目前不普遍不普遍的時候那價值比較貴價值貴的話農民就比較不想用所以這個部分我們會持續請我們街上團隊來合作特別是加一些以前有在生產的有沒有這個公司來合作來做這是我們希望來做到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
21074.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
21084.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
所以都有一些示範方案示範方案現在在處理好 因為感覺起來這是對我們的有機農業未來長期來講是比較好對我們所有的環境也很好所以如果可以這樣做應該是對農民有很大的幫助對我們的農業好 這個麻煩董事長繼續來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
21095.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
21111.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
第二點就是之前也有說過這個蔬果貼紙我們知道蔬果基本上有兩部分一部分是我們自己種的要由外國進口一部分是由外國進口我們對外國的東西當然那些貼紙我們比較難要求外國要求是最好不過起碼我們本土的這個貼紙部分目前不知道有比較分解材質的推進狀況還是沒有一部分要怎麼把它落實到產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
21123.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
21146.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
我向委員報告現在農業部的農產品有在做貼紙就是我們的產銷履歷及優基那當然有其他的標章可能是其他的部會我們現在先對我們的產銷履歷及優基的標章我也覺得說如果用一些可分解的這些材質的話對環境是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
21147.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
21171.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
我們現在也有跟一些鄉鄉在討論看有沒有辦法做中央也是介紹 新聞跟介紹的部分所以這個部分我們阿邦要塞的時候可能會先對有機的來塞有機的因為本身對環境比較好你用的一些資材也是有機的我也希望說它的標籤也是有比較可分解的材質這個部分我們來努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
21172.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
21183.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
對啊 也讓我們的社會才知道大家為了我們的環境給一些介紹大家是不是可以大家一起來分擔嘛這些麻煩農業部多宣傳好 最後一個問題就是這個氣候變遷這個氣候變遷大家都跑不去農業影響也不是那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
21194.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
21223.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
我們最近有去嘉義大學去了解過知道嘉義大學跟台南的龍改廠研發一些耐旱的水稻叫做嘉大台南二號深珠米吃那個米的感覺其實口味很好還可以做酒黃文宜教授很用心不只可以抗旱他們這些東西出來可以解水還可以減少碳排放 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
21224.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
21238.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
這部分中來是很需要台灣有更多的這些方面的推廣這部分目前不知道農業部針對於這個相對的因應氣候變遷帶來的衝擊有什麼比較新的目標可以讓我們國人知道我們面對的氣候變遷本身第一點的部分就是說我們的拼盡有辦法去 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
21247.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
21266.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
比較耐熱的 比較節水的部分這個部分我們的研究團隊就是我們的工廠一直有好好在合作包括你剛剛說的九二大項在合作希望說我們有比較多的不同地區的這些品種可以適合地區來種這是第一個第二點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
21267.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
21281.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
我們的天氣裡面本身的監控的系統我們要比較好的就是說我們的預測的監控的系統如果比較好的話可以讓農民早一點去做預防是 今天長老紅胎比較有時間去預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
21283.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
21299.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
第三點就是說因為一些天氣我們沒辦法預測的時候我們希望說我們會推廣我們的一些設施栽培你如果要溫泉裡面的時候你就比較不怕外面的風和雨嘛所以這個保溫農業部的一些政策的措施都有在協助啦這最美的一點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
21302.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
21324.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
農業部的相關的研究不只是我們該農場的部分有跟學校去合作我們希望能成立一個比較跨域的一個合作團隊來處理是是是這個跨部會的部分嘛不然就會對於我們這個因應氣候變遷造成很大的辛苦的部分那這個麻煩博定謝謝 感謝委員 支持農業部謝謝 感謝博定 感謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
21330.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
21351.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
要不要休息五分鐘你不用別人不認愛 不能讓別人遭不住你有沒有不理我們剛剛休息十二點四幾分現在過兩個鐘頭了是不是要上個廁所 需要去休息五分鐘休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
21669.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
21674.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
好 我們繼續開會下一位麻煩劉建國召委來發言好 謝謝主席部長你先坐著 沒關係 你休息一下我知道你很堅強也很有耐性 也很堅忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
21691.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
21719.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
那對華麗的本質上你也非常清楚因為你是一步一步上來的那剛剛在整個你接受很多不分朝野的委員催選過程裡面我覺得我多數都是同意贊成但是有一點我不太贊成這個是這樣講今天排審當然我們是尋答我們當然是期待院板要趕快進來那院板可能我先要提醒兩件事情第一個禮拜四就是有院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
21721.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
21748.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
對嘛 就放假嘛 對不對好 再來又會遇到下下個禮拜的院會又放假啦所以這個是不是要建議這個院會要加開啦還是改日 改日開嘛這樣才會 會承諾部長所講的這個會期我們才有辦法把這個這個勞動津貼整個相關料處理的面向都可以處理在這個會期去完成啦好 這是第一件事情主席請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
21749.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
21768.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
沒關係啦 你吃多了 不好意思 你吃多了第二件事情是這樣就是說剛剛特別提到這個其實也是在前幾天開記者會的時候我特別提出來今天部分草野的委員都期待要將老農津貼這個相關的這樣的一個的金額去提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
21769.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
21783.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
這大家都肯定也正面然後第二件事情還要針對這個整個檢討不應該在四年來做處理甚至要縮短這個期程那第三個我們就是要鬆綁這個排戶也是說讓這個情靈者的這個資格在排戶這個過程裡面我們可以更寬鬆的這樣的一個認定還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
21793.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
21806.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
自用住宅的免扣除額可以再提高我想法條裡面大致上有涵蓋這三個面向唯獨總預算如果沒有審查沒有通過牽涉的是第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
21808.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
21831.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
牽涉是第一項但是我們第二項第三項基本上還是不會因為總預算未過不能處理啦所以這部分我知道這部分跟部長的看法有所不一樣啦但應該我講的也應該算是比較正確那第三件事情是這樣我就覺得很奇怪啦今天既然大家都希望把這個對老龍的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
21832.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
21852.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
要往這個更高的這樣的一個津貼的金額去做提高那應該基本上目標都一致啊做法也應該應該要趨之一致嘛怎麼會怎麼會總預算案到現在都不審查然後來漫天喊價的說老農今天要增加多少增加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
21853.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
21865.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
這個其實到頭來自相矛盾,到頭來社會包含老農,我們的老農民其實都很清楚的,都很了解,老農津貼是怎樣有的,是對當時開始的,多個金額開始的,當當時就對了,是怎麼變七清,是怎麼變四當檢討七敗, |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
21877.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
21886.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
這大家來留感回想一下或許有些人的記憶是比較容易當萬的但是多數人的記憶還是會刻骨銘心因為過去沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
21887.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
21908.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
後來有嘛後來有的時候3000一直提升到7000嘛對不對到最後為什麼會是你要檢討一次按照CPI有增加我們這個相對的這樣的一個間貼就會提高這是下降是沒有跟著調降的嘛那個時候就是不希望遇到選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
21910.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
21939.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
大家在那邊漫天喊假嘛所以才會把這樣的華率定成這個樣子就四年檢討一次嘛那我們今天就是要解決我們不只要把津貼提高我們要解決這個四年才檢討一次的這樣的制度所以這個是大家大家必須要去充分討論嘛那當然很多人用一般縣市的最低生活費最低生活費來對比現在的這個老農津貼這其實有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
21939.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
21968.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
坦白講這是很奇怪的比喻方式我必須這麼說我剛來立委員的時候在這個委員會我最早排審的就是這個社會救助法那社會救助法就牽涉有三個面向有三類人第一個就是低收入戶第二個叫中低收入戶那第三個就是金融補助以前叫特殊婦女金融補助那最低社會在這個法律裡面是講什麼東西是在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
21970.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
21998.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
有符合低收入戶跟中低收入資格者我們先講低收入戶你按照你的家庭人口數每一個人 每一個人他的收入沒有超過當年度公告最低生活費的1.5倍條件一啦條件一啦生活費是拿來做這樣的一個條件資格的比喻不是把最低生活費拿來做補助的啦金額啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
21999.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
22011.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
所以要用比喻 大家要講得清楚 大家要對這件事了解怎麼會說一般先是最低生活費已經來到一萬五所以老農今天就應該怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
22012.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
22032.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
你如果真的今天有心要去幫這些農民幫這些老農可以在他65歲退休之後得到應該政府有更多這樣的照顧那我想這個法律裡面有很多部分我們必須去了解然後去做相關的一些討論之後然後去做調整嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
22033.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
22055.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
而不是用這樣來去做這樣的對比這是第一件事情那第二件事情我在處理第二個大幅的修正就是生權法那個時候修正的弧度超過這個法律的三分之一我們還用了會前會還從這個下午兩點然後把各部位找了因為相關的設計層面太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
22056.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
22084.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
有交通的有經濟的有公共空間的有內政部的等等等我們是從兩點開到晚上十點是主條的大家取得有共識不分草不分野因為大家要幫助身心障礙者的朋友那身心障礙者也有所謂的中低收入戶身心障礙者常這樣生活津貼等他的依據剛剛我講的第二條件還是以這個戶籍裡面的人每一個人平均算起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
22084.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
22103.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
他没有超过最低生活费的1.5倍就是有低收入低的资格2.5倍就是中低收入的这个申请资格所以我要表达说你用这个来对比老龙津贴那基本上是不对的第三件事情是这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
22104.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
22125.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
我真的是不清楚 今天如果國民黨籍的所有的委員真的希望老榮津貼 在本會期成為部長所講的 我們要力拚這個會期把津貼的金額去提高提高多少 姑且先不談 就是要提高那你怎麼會總預算 到現在還不審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
22129.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
22148.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
那你一定想說這個新的計畫還是延續性的新增機會只要送來立法院經過審查後通過不再實現你當然也可以講這些話我沒有異議不過我要特別提醒如果是可以這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
22149.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
22163.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
國家在審查預算然後在面對相關法律過程裡面然後有牽涉到法律通過之後有牽涉到任何的預算的增加與否都必須要用這種方式來做處理這個國家是會亂掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
22165.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
22192.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
然後農民也不希望有看到這樣的局面然後也讓農民覺得你不就真的抱起林花園你就要跟他同歸如果不跟他抱你不就繼續剩下的就對了所以我想我用一點點比較長的時間來提醒這件事情我今天敢排審下去我坦白講啦不好意思 坦白講我今天敢排下去也當然是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
22193.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
22203.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
農業部跟陳部長跟相關的官員有討論過也跟很多的委員有討論過即便願版來不及提出來我們還是一樣可以審啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
22205.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
22229.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
我們還是一樣可以審啦 怎麼不能審重點重點就是要提高多少金額當然要行政單位去衡量財政狀況嘛然後你們也可以認可的這樣的一個經費是裡面可以去支應的嘛然後可以可長可久的嘛我不是現在這次會期通過之後不到半年不到一年說經費缺少了還是說沒有經費嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
22230.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
22256.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
那所以我只是要把今天為什麼要把老農津貼趕快排審因為我們希望與時俱進我們也希望這個物價指數然後相關的這些波動當然對老農的這一個老農津貼來講有一點有一點銜接不上對不上啦對不上這個不給基礎的標準所以我們才會趕快的在這個會期來排審然後不只這樣我們還是要顧青龍所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
22258.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
22282.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
這個禮拜一的時候在經濟委員會也針對農民除菁的相關的法律修正案那大家也有共識然後也出了委員會所以對青農的照顧經濟委會已經在處理這由陳廷輝委員 陳廷輝召委來排審那對老農津貼的部分就在 主責在未還那當然我就趕快來排審我們對青農要照顧我們對老農也一樣照顧對青農照顧 而後青農也會變成老農 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
22285.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
22306.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
所以這一塊要顧 這一塊要顧兩個都要顧起來才讓從農的所有的這些我們的專業的農民有得到更好的這樣的一個保障也看得到更美好的這樣的未來然後才不會讓我們的從農的人口持續從108年一直到現在已經幾乎每年是跌破 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
22307.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
22331.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
是減少了快1萬人到現在這個資料就很清楚嘛從以前的1084將近56萬現在去年年底的統計是已經跌破40萬了那當然農業部剛剛有提出很多這個相關的一些鼓勵的還有要這個讓從農的人數要增加漁火的這個計畫但是那個KPI我不曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
22331.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
22355.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
我是訓練完的你們把這個人數算進去但是實際上做到一半了哪是做不到半年了就已經在尼龍的那個有沒有扣起來我相信沒有扣掉啦所以再一來一往這裡就半斤六萬五你到現在這裡處理差不多三萬筒喔應該是不到三萬啦現在累積嘛兩萬四耶你再怎麼銜接都銜接不起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
22358.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
22384.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
也補不足啦也補不快啦然後台灣的人口的快速結構的應變不只是農業嘛很多的產業面向的人口結構都很快速的在轉變在這個過程裡面坦白講很多的政策我們必須要用很快速的做這樣的一個積極的因應還有很多我們必須要下門要就像為什麼以前叫農委會為什麼我們要把農委會提升變成農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
22386.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
22410.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
為什麼為什麼農業就必須要有個部會來整個掌舵為什麼我們要預算以前一千多億一千出億慢慢的然後佔了老農青年老農青年就已經佔了一半以上為什麼我們要逐年去把這個農業部的預算一直往上提升農業已經委屈太久了農業已經委屈太久了所以今天由部長掌政的情況之下就必須適時的來幫農民幫我們的農業來跟行政院來做這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
22417.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
22441.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
這樣堅定的然後積極的訴求很多的事情我們可能要用最快的速度來做這樣的處理所以我們才會快速的把這個老農津貼排成到我們的委員會來所以希望今天可以透過充分的討論然後盡快的讓這個會期可以通過甚至於未來的預算都沒有問題可以追溯到明年1月以後就開始來實施這是最好不過的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
22442.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
22457.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
我相信大家如果願意朝這個目標來打拚來朝這個目標來做努力我想朝野的委員這個反對到現在不審預算的委員應該是要被要被說服的要被提醒的也希望他們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
22458.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
22481.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
加入我們要購農民的兼顧青農老農的行列趕快去溝通是不是這個種植專案趕快來做這個相關的審查才是真正的在為老農今天要提高要放寬這個排入條款相關的這個免扣出口都可以得到更寬鬆的認定那才是真正在幫農民不然今天在這邊講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
22482.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
22496.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
沒有照這樣的一個步調在做其實基本上都是假的啦那是在騙農民啦農民不是看不到啦我相信今天這樣的一個委員會很多的委員都已經有表達相關的意見那我只是在這邊做這樣的一個補充啦謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
22498.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
22513.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
好謝謝劉建國在為匆匆容容的發言下一位請圖宣基委員圖宣基委員圖宣基委員不在下一位請張七凱委員張七凱委員張七凱委員不在下一位請陳冠廷委員發言謝謝委員我們請部長好又請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
22529.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
22539.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
喂 部長好部長我們剛剛看到這個劉委員有提到我們現在的從容人口那已經從108年的56萬人降到40萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
22540.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
22564.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
那我們提出來的這個腦農津貼相關的這些法案我們是希望說把這個糧食安全土地地利維護那長期間低利潤但對國家高產值的這些從業人口那在他們走到晚年老年的時候他有一個津貼那可以鼓勵更多的人在這一個農業上面來去努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
22564.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
22580.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
那我這是跟蔡委員我們稍早他也有做資訊他的修法版本的主軸就是希望說調整為每個月是一萬兩千元那過去從今天依照物價週期剛才部長也有提到從四年改為兩年一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
22581.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
22605.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
那排富的這個門檻是希望能夠做取消那我必須要特別提到那從2016年我們的這個國民的這個應該是說不要想國民所得我們講政府的總預算他已經從1.8兆那到去年大概是3.15兆左右所以說我們可以看到這一個提升的幅度是很大的那我們過去所擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
22605.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
22631.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
會不會排擠掉其他的公務預算隨著我們國家的經濟成長跟國家預算的成長我認為是有條件來做相應的處理把這個我們的津貼從過去的這種數字來從七千二零二四年是七千五百五那提高到未來的一萬兩千塊錢那我們也知道說剛才部長有提到如果說做這樣子的調整的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
22632.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
22639.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
那大概是會多了120億左右是不是247億左右那以部長你們考量現在的財政247億是能夠做調整的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
22652.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
22675.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
不過我跟委員報告我們現在農業部的預算年度的預算如果以今年來講是1682億包括追加減以後那其中大概有800億已經是在做所謂的那個議法律義務支出的這些經費那如果再增加的這個200將近250億左右的話那相對的我們整個議法律義務支出就會高達1000億以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
22677.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
22694.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
那以整個農業部的一個預算來講如果說你的依法律支出的這些相關的這些經費如果超過五成以上的話我覺得它的財政結構就會被扭曲因為我們要花更多的這些經費去協助現在目前從事農業的這些基礎措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
22696.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
22712.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
那部長其實我們剛剛提到從這個國民黨的他們直接提到一萬五嘛到我們提到的說是希望說從四年一次改為兩年一次那或者是有的委員們提到每月一萬二那有的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
22713.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
22733.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
1萬那各種不同的數字我們應該都有做過評估那你認為說在各種不同的數字再去做一個權衡之後1萬元的提高是不是有可能做到的我想我們在初步規劃我覺得我們現在目前是在現在委員的版本的一個中間我想1萬元應該是有那個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
22734.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
22753.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
謝謝部長因為我還是要再強調他是針對這個農業的從業人員那所以他不僅僅是所謂的這個是屬於社會福利的部分不是喔他不僅如此而已他因為是因為我們一直提到現在的農業的從業人口是在4.6%的人口那隨著這幾次的風災下去越來越多的離農 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
22754.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
22773.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
那如果說未來我們還不能夠給他一些基礎的保障的話那我會非常擔心那所以為什麼我們提出來跟行政院也好跟農業部也好把這些數字先做一個統整就是希望說不要再排擠其他公務運算的條件之下還是也可以給這些農民朋友們一個最基礎的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
22774.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
22793.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
所以我們是這樣子的考量之下所以不是說我們滿天開價一萬五兩萬這樣子是因為我們相信說已經跟農業部跟行政院我們共同討論下來可以走到一個兩方都能夠接觸的一個底線所以今天看到部長有稍微提到如果在這樣子的財政允許之下一萬元基本上是還有機會課金的 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
22794.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
22813.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
對 這個就是我剛才一直在強調的就是說我們行政院有行政院的版本那委員 不同的委員有不同的版本那我們應該找到一個大家都能夠有共識的這個方向而且是對我們農民好的部分那當然很多東西不可能一步到位嘛那我們有設計更多的一個誘因的時候我都希望爭取委員的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
22813.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
22840.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
其實包含像公糧收購也好或者是這個津貼也好我們都不希望說一次超過我們政府的權限跟政府的能力那到時候什麼都沒有既沒有辦法替農民爭取到權益那也沒有辦法進步那我會覺得很可惜所以我們這個從老農津貼到公糧收購公糧收購已經增加到1.5塊錢每公頃多2萬元到現在的老農津貼未來可能會增加到1萬元我想這是我們會對農業部的肯定也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
22841.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
22867.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
部長再努力啊如果總預算盡快排成之後我們希望這個1萬塊可以盡快的來給我們這些農民朋友來一個幫助謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位請徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在下一位請王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
22869.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
22896.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
下一位請連寬恆連寬恆連寬恆連寬恆委員不在下一位李柏毅李柏毅李柏毅委員不在下一位請葉元之葉元之葉元之委員不在下一位請黃潔黃潔黃潔委員不在下一位請陳素月陳素月陳素月委員不在我們我們趙委員在我會在我會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
22904.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
22922.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
好 本日會議詢討全部結束那委員有楊瓊英 廖偉翔 李柏毅 圖全吉 邱振軍 邱益穎 蘇巧慧 徐欣穎 陳素月 王美惠所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在作為下決議第一說明及詢討完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
22923.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
22950.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
第二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定第三老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第二條第三條及第四條條文修正草案既有三十九案另則其繼續審查我這邊還是要拜託部長可能行政院那邊還是要溝通一下不然如果兩個兩次都放假就真的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
22952.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
22956.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
會拖到時間 這邊再問部長好 那本次會議到此結束 現在散會 |