| IVOD_ID |
17139 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17139 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-22T08:31:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-22T17:35:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
09:03:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c22d0fafdfecfd60bdae56b7a60aa52c3fa04411479d882a15022a2c586e59645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：壹、繼續審查
一、行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
三、委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
四、委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
五、委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
六、委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
七、委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
八、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
九、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十、委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十一、委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十二、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十三、委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十四、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十五、委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十六、委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十七、委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。
十八、委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十九、委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十一、委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十二、委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十四、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十五、委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十七、委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十八、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十九、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
貳、審查
一、委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
【第貳一案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【逐條討論】） |
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08:31:07 - 17:35:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1797.287 |
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報告委員會 出席委員人數5人 已組法定人數請主席宣布開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1804.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1829.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年十二月十八日星期四九時三分至十一時二十五分地點群憲樓八零一會議室出席委員盧委員憲一等十五人列席委員郭委員國文等八人列席官員勞動部部長洪森漢等相關人員主席廖兆吉委員韋祥 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1830.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1849.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項審查及繼續審查勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案共計三十八案本次會議經委員林月琴 王振旭及郭國文說明提案指去並進行廣泛討論委員陳金輝發言暨有委員提出修正動議三案決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1851.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1859.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案等38案審查完均內容如審查結果並按你據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由廖兆及委員委想補充說明不需交黨團協商審查結果第69條照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1869.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1892.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第二十九條 照委員劉建國 王振旭等三人所提修正動議通過 第六十六條 照行政院提案及委員林月琴 王振旭 廖偉祥 蘇清泉 林淑芬王育敏 陳昭之及羅廷維等八人所提修正動議修正通過維持現行條文第三十條 第五十八條 第五十九條 第六十三條 第六十七條及第七十四條之二通過附帶決議二項 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1896.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1911.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處主席有關上次這次會議記錄裡面有關於立法說明的部分並沒有明列在這邊是不是請主席追加宣布將立法說明也能夠載入謝謝補充宣告有關勞動部提供的立法說明委員們如果有意見我們就放入審查報告列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1928.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1946.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那本日會議議程為繼續審查行政院函請審議委員分別凝聚的兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案審查委員張家俊等十九人凝聚兒童托育服務法草草案首先我們介紹在場委員陳昭之委員王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1959.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1985.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
以及列席官員 衛生福利部石崇良部長社會及家庭署周道軍署長法規會陳信成參事保護服務師張靖倫專委醫治師李巧林科長國民健康署婦幼健康組張英純檢任激政 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1987.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2013.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
內政部護政司蘇志萌檢論視察警政署防治署王育俊專員消防署救災救護署簡育淳專委國土管理署建築管理署葉先鋒專員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2015.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2041.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
財政部國有財產署張翠芳副組長教育部國民及學前教育署郭姿穎副組長法務部汪南軍參事經濟部人事處鄧惠怡專委勞動部勞動扶植退休師李娟鳳專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2045.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2071.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
勞動條件及就業平等師楊怡婷科長勞動關係師許瓊月專員金融監督管理委員會保險局王啟華副組長援助民族委員會社會福利處洪林副處長行政院人事行政總處給予福利處謝艾倫專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2076.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2093.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
個人資料保護委員會籌備處法制事務組陳錦怡科長先做以下說明本委員會先前已就兒童托育服務法草案等29案進行第二輪審查到39條經決議尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2098.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2107.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
現在就第二輪上位審查之保留條文接續審查每條條文先請行政單位說明接著再請委員表示意見而托法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2111.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2134.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第二輪上次審查即已通過含不予採納二十二條章次乃續保留者九條 九條次等本日繼續第二輪審查至第四十二條開始審查四十二全部念 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2137.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2160.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有形政院委員林月琴 委員何欣淳 委員黃潔 委員蔡玉怡委員李坤澄 委員張雅玲 委員吳麗華 委員王玉敏委員邱若驊 委員郭玉琴 委員鄭天才 委員王美惠委員吳啟明 委員劉建國 委員陳培宇 委員陳樹悅 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2162.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2165.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
等版本先請衛福部先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2191.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2215.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
行政院版第42條主要是規範針對原來第39條這個有所謂不得任用的托育人員不得任用的情形的部分那這個我們是搭配相關的條文原來我們在做層次化的處理一個是終身不得僱用那另外一個則是在本條則是規範1到4年他不可以去做任用這樣的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2216.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2237.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
目前跟各委員中間的差異主要是林委員的提案的部分有提到是不是可以將它修正為一年到十年我們初步延期的建議是我們建議是否有可能照行政院原來的版本來做思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2237.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2261.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那主要的理由大概有兩個第一個是參考跟現在幼兒教育法的部分立法結構可以比較一致那第二個是大概在一般社會民眾的通念上如果到時候可以五年到七年或者八年不得任用其實大概社會觀念上認為是非常嚴重的大概民眾的接受度可能也會有相關的顧慮我們建議是否可以維持現在行政院版的條文以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2265.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2284.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
而針對我的版本這部分前面有先行好溝通那我本人是同意維持就是我們行政院版本一到十年其他委員有沒有意見沒有那就按照行政院提案通過那接下來43條 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2291.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2292.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
抱歉接下來是45條請那個衛福部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2297.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2323.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
接下來第45條的部分是針對托育機構的負責人有相關的這個違規的情勢的時候直轄室署管機關可以廢止這個托育機構的設立的規定那這個部分的話各委員的版本的部分主要是在差異的部分在於一個是黃捷委員有提案對於先前有提到在南部有縣市有一些比較這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2325.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2337.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
利用關西人的部分去設立的個案那可能有這個比較嚴重的可能有利用人頭去設立的這樣子的情況那我們也建議這個部分的話另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2340.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2362.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
林淑芬委員和陳培宇委員的部分則是對於我們現在在於這個違規的行為在處罰的懲處的部分除了可以去做廢止之外那是可以並可以訓練其交叉更換縣市的負責人那就這個部分的話我們就有一個建議的版本的條文那主要的建議是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2365.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2375.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
已經有提供給委員並且有投影在現在的投影幕上那我們會建議這個部分是不是可以用到第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2380.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2407.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他在處理的部分的話我們會建議是不是可以去第一個是在有一個最嚴重的情形的話就是分層次的是第一項我們會建議開廢止他的設立許可第二項稍微這個有一定的情況的時候則是限期令他更換負責人那另外也參考那個林淑芬委員和陳培鈺委員的提案的版本我們在第三項把 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2408.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2432.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
居家托育服務中心相關的人員也一併納入規範以上說明委員沒有意見沒有意見這個原因就是因為那個居多服務中心簽契約的時候都是跟這個受委辦單位訂定勞動契約所以只是把他講的法律上講得更清楚而已好可以那其他委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2437.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2445.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沒有的話 我們就依行政院林淑芬委員提案修正通過那接續46條 請衛福部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2448.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2476.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
行政院版草案第46條的部分和委員主要的不同在於第一個是林淑芬委員和陳佩玉委員的部分是建議規範的對象是否能夠增列居家托育服務中心的工作人員一併納入規範那第二個是在於46條的第一項的部分在發生違規案件的時候行政院版原來的條文是在兩個工作日內進行處理那這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2479.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2493.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
各委員的部分有的委員在是不是兩天內進行處理的文字是否夠清跟是否夠清楚那我們現在也有一個建議的文字那主要的是第一個是將林淑芬委員的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2494.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2510.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
建議的部分將托育服務中心已經納入規範了那第二個在第一項最後我們還是建議是否可以用這個兩個工作日內進行處理這樣子的文字我們就來做來提供委員討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2513.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2537.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
委員有沒有意見我再說明一下就是本來就是說因為兩天內就馬上啟動調查其實在實務上是不可能的因為你還要去找調查委員光是兩天去找都不夠所以應該是進行就兩天以內馬上就進行處理那這個當然要只要找好調查委員以後才能夠正式調查嘛那進行處理是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2537.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2546.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我們還有一個修正建議就是說我們希望這些地方主管機關為了審議前項違法事件之調查的時候應該是設審議小組那我們是希望審議小組如有必要應該把一些相關的人放進來譬如說要包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2562.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2587.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主管機關代表幼兒保育或兒童福利專家法律專家托育服務團體代表勞工權益促進團體代表居托人員代表托育人員代表家長代表婦女團體代表就是其審議小組的組成調查小組的組成成員的資格限制這個我們在授權給地方政府但是我們在法裡面要明定這些代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2588.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2605.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是因為我們希望至少要有這一些人來代表這樣子再來就是說這個審議小組如果必要時得邀請其他相關學者專家或專科醫師醫事人員提供專業意見這樣應該也要放進來比較具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2609.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2623.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第一個就是說要有專業人員的專業意見要放要得邀請他們來提供那另外審議小組的成員代表應該要有我剛才所念的那一些代表這樣子是不是再增加這兩個概念進來法理面明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2635.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2662.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那孫委員已經講完因為審議小組的成員是重要的核心事項應該要以法律定制我們不要再像以前就說我們就交給他們去決定成員的代表性要放誰我們是希望可以放進來那得邀請專業專科醫師學者專家醫事人員提供專業意見這個能也放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2665.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2679.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
代表我們對於他們的這個這個重視因為這個是很核心的得啦沈亦時如果必要得邀請這樣子也是有彈性的我們的版本裡面應該有請是不是能夠請大家最後兩項的文字參採我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2700.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2705.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
對啊就是這個這個就是我們的版本那我這邊先那個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2706.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2728.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
之前台北市發生了幾個案子事實上是所以你這邊寫直接派員我有點有疑慮要去調查有時候為什麼不成案你派的那個人非常的重要因為曾經有派過那個才到職的約聘僱才兩個月的人要去作為去認定說要不要去啟動調查這是有風險的所以才會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2729.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2744.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
培洛米達案到第二年發生這麼嚴重那為什麼你這邊還是直接派員 或者我就不知道派誰 或者又一個貨組成調查小組我不知道就是說 今天當然過去事實上是有人 可是你現在採刑的事實上當初這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2747.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2770.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
本來就本來是希望說比照幼照法那樣子的一個方式可是重點是現在人家已經發生疑慮的時候你們還是用這種方式因為我認為直接派員調查這個資格跟誰或者是一些認定應該要有授權執法這是第一項第二個是針對於審議小組的組成的我認為後邊不是只有組成應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2771.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2792.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
比照我的版本是有寫資格頓耗人數及其他相關事項的辦法來授權可是我不要不贊成你前面寫的就是直接派那個派誰我就說就已經是在前年發生的就直接派約評估影響這麼多孩子的權益怎麼可能還在允許說 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2792.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2802.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們直接派員讓地方政府這樣子做所以這個我是完全不能接受不能統一所以我請衛福部做說明 針對我跟淑芬委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2804 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2827.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
跟兩位委員的意見我們大概做一個簡單的說明為什麼我們現在在第二項的部分是不是還是維持一個是直接派員或組成調查小組畢竟在這個受理到調查受理到違法事件的時候其實在受理的第一時間的時候其實對於案情的嚴重程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2828.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2849.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
其實在判斷上面有的時候其實並不是沒有辦法馬上知道案情也許是很輕也許到非常重那事實上檢舉進來這類違法案件的時候也有一些其實是非常輕微不見得到一定需要每一個案子都需要啟動調查所以在第二項的時候其實我們是留給縣市政府一個這樣子的空間其實原意只是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2850.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2877.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
當然絕對印象概念上並不是希望說嚴重的案子但是可以用比較輕的方式去調查我們在立法上面也沒有這樣的意思那第二個是針對這個調查小組的成員的部分我們是覺得說確實是大家都會很關心這個調查成員的組成那如果是這樣子的話我們會建議在這個條我們覺得是可以在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2878.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2893.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
條文的倒數第二項的部分因為現行的倒數第二項直轄市縣市主管機關要去因涉審議小組那我們是不是可以在這邊這個後面就甄列一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2894.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2909.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那這個前項的這個小組的時候就應該要委員這個委員就應該要包括主管機關代表托育或兒童福利相關團體代表法律專家托育專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2911.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2940.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
服務或其他代表其他服務人員代表家長團體代表及相關領域專家學者我們就把這個範圍的部分框出來那最後一項就參照林耀勤委員的提案提議我們就在最後包括授權的事項包括人數組成及其他相關事項把人數的部分也一併納進來先做以上的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2942.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2962.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
你還是沒有解決我剛剛講的問題的確有時候有些案子是輕案有些事實上是重案可是我說當初找一個約聘僱才來到職兩個月他過去沒有這樣的經驗去做調查那你讓地方這樣做不是就是誤判嗎才會隔年造成這麼多孩子傷害現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2964.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2988.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我覺得要去防堵已經有發生過的事情那你怎麼現在我還在跟你講這件事情你還是覺得說對有些親愛可是今天你坐任讓地方政府因為直接派員就有可能引發這樣的狀況就是說我直接派員我派閱評顧那你對我能怎麼辦那最後呢影響的是誰今天是39個孩子受害一本來可以處理的好好的話不會有隔年39個孩子人家幼兒園幼照房那邊已經出現這樣問題我們還直接這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2991.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3007.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我覺得依法都講不過去這不會是保護孩子最佳利益所以我講的是這個所以我要請你們這邊是要去處理因為我版本沒有寫這個你們要直接否則就是還有一種就是說我從神醫小組裡邊去派神醫小組裡邊的其中一個成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3008.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3027.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
因為不用大陣仗的開會可是不會是去派一個約聘僱才倒子兩個月的人去做這樣子這麼嚴重的調查案他本來就當初爸爸去報案的時候就是已經是那種定時上是有性侵之餘的結果最後是派一個約聘僱這個怎麼會讓社會能接受呢委員我來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3029.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3056.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個確實委員會擔心說這些人的經驗不足會造成的倒不是說他是什麼約聘顧或什麼我覺得我們是不是把它調整應指派專責人員就表示他是長期負責這個工作的他比較有經驗而不是隨便大家用輪的隨便指派用指派專責人員或組成調查小組是不是改成文字用這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3060.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3082.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
部長 這專責人員也要來看過往 過去的確在各縣市政府的執行狀況根本就是一個很大的問題今天以台北市來講12個行政區 12個社福中心12個社福中心比一個社福中心如果三個人 36個人36個人他到底有沒有經驗他有時候可能會被 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3083.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3102.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我今天是這個社福中心我可能到半年甚至四五年從來都沒派過案可是今天剛好在我士林區那我被派案我算不算專責人員我有沒有這個能力我有沒有受過這個訓練所以為什麼過去我們自己在看那時候我們在民間團體常常看為什麼常常不懲案 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3103.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3131.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我覺得起心動念的那個人非常的重要因為他決定了懲不懲案過去憲憑大概幾乎只要有風吹草動都懲案可是不當對待的時候不見得有那更何況各地方政府做的方式事實上是不一樣的因為過去社福中心這樣做的確家內的不當對待比較多可是當家外越來越多的時候你再用這種方式有時候就是還是妨礙到兒少的權益所在所以這個有沒有去考慮到因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3134.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3147.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我只是很粗淺的用台北市這樣算就有36個人更何況不是只有一個社福中心只有三個人那各縣市的做法是不太一樣的那你到底這個專責人員到底又是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3149.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3173.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這樣 委員是不是這樣就是大家關心的當然這個人員的能力啦 經驗啦那是不是我們把它寫在授權法規裡面應受的訓練或是資格要件我們寫在授權法規來授權讓我們來討論這樣前面就是他要專責人員啦至於說這個專責人員是什麼樣的人那在我們後面最後一項的授權法規一併去訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3176.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3185.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
一項不是只有審議小組 包含專職人員那個 王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3192.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3207.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
根據剛剛的討論我看那個第二項有關於要直接指派專責人員或組成調查小組進行調查這個其實是月群委員一直很關心因為如果你有貨的話那這個機制怎麼啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3212.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3230.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
看起來兩個都可以可是可是如果是不同的程度的時候誰來決定這個複雜程度或者是嚴重程度是由誰來決定這部分可能要再說明不然的話到時候結果另外人又不同的意見以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3237.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3264.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
先林淑芬委員之後再陳昭芝委員好剛才這個署長還是沒有處理到我們的部分就是說前向的審議小組剛剛講了你們講的是不是就我們的版本你們覺得哪個不用這樣講否則的話我也覺得說為什麼拿掉我們的婦女團體代表那或者是說為什麼這個勞工權益促進團體代表不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3266.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3284.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這樣子 那另外就是說我們一直在講說省議室如有必要得邀請學者專家或專科醫師醫事人員提供專業意見這個一定要入法他才依法有據否則他沒有入法的時候他去邀請來了那他的專業意見他要能夠成為這個調查證據嗎或者調查過程當中一定會被參採嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3293.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3318.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以我的意思是說其實我們法律裡面明定了要邀請必要時得邀請他們來參加提供專業的意見那他們提供的專業意見理所當然就成為這個審議的時候或是調查的時候最重要的核心所以這一個東西是不能免的那我就這兩個問題其他我就沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3319.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3329.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好那請陳昭志委主席謝謝主席主席這個我有一個名詞就是說因於兩個工作之內進行處理那請問進行處理這個清楚嗎就進行處理什麼時候再算是進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3336.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3359.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為我看到說明是有寫一個程序那也許這個地方進行處理第二個這個剛剛部長談的這個專責人員那這個因為專責人員他應該只是去蒐集資料因為後面有審議小組這個非常類似那個譬如說藥害救濟的他們的做法要有這個工作人員先去找應該要具備的資料然後最後交由審議小組來判斷評定 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3362.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3377.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那所以這個專責人員的話他就是說不管在執法什麼地方規定這個專責人員他必須要收集到哪些資料就是他開始做那後面那個如果大家擔心我覺得那個貨就是改成病 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3378.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3405.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
就是專責人員他開始去收集資料因為審議人員未必要到現場去收集資料那審議人員他就會根據或是要求更多的資料他是同時可以是同時進行的有人去做然後這個組已經開始動了開始就是折成這個專責人員他需要補足哪些資料謝謝就說我有一個處理那個定義清不清楚那專責人員要做哪些事情其實可以去明定他要做但第三個就可以把貨改成病謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3406.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3433.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好請那個黃秀芳委員其實剛剛那個月勤委員有特別提到就是說這一個直接派員我覺得應該也是要再寫得更清楚一點就是說像這樣的一個調查應該是讓比較有經驗的人來處理那另外就是說我們看到這個審議小組就是審議時有必要得邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3434.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3461.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
剛剛淑芬委員有特別提到就是說學者專家或專科醫師或醫事人員提供專業意見那因為這只是一個得邀請不一定是必要所以對所以有彈性我覺得說應該把它列進去應該也不會有什麼樣的有什麼樣的影響因為畢竟孩子的事情我覺得我們應該要更謹慎好謝謝林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3463.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3488.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個專責人員可能會有一點還需要很明確的定義要講清楚在這裡因為個縣市對於不當對待的行為人這個誰是專責人員不當對待的行為人是誰他的專責人員是不一樣的譬如說家長打小孩台北市是社福中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3489.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3516.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那保姆打小孩是婦幼科這個是台北市所以你在專責人員上面可能各地方政府管理的規範的可能不是很一樣事權並沒有那麼統一所以你們可能還要再想一想專責人員要怎麼定義要怎麼寫清楚啦要怎麼寫清楚每一管制排出來都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3518.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3545.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以衛福部要不要說明不過在講之前所以剛剛所任委員也在問你們那個人是誰就是所謂的審議小組可是我雖然只寫資格頓耗人數可是事實上人數當然未來如果我們授權執法我覺得應該去還要考慮到一個比例現在幼照法走在前面已經有很多問題發生他們有在做去調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3545.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3570.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
可是現在如果這邊又還是如果我們寫人數沒有講到比例的話又讓地方政府自己亂做為什麼我這樣講因為幼照法下來之後像認定委員會怎麼會是七個都是政府部門那五個是幼教單位然後呢兒少團體兒少的福利的代表是零人 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3571.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3595.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那難怪幾乎都不會成案那台北呢事實上是七個都是幼教然後呢主席是不是照我們的看到有什麼困難沒有困難的話所以我的意思是說你如果沒有去看那個比例的話未來也是一個問題你們訂了一個大原則最後呢地方政府執行的時候最後還是讓地方政府影響到孩子的一個權益因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3596.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3621.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個比例上就不對等 我覺得應該是說今天主張老師權益的 主張孩子權益的都應該要各辦 而不是忽略掉孩子權益 幾乎我們去 那時候我們去看六都就會有這種狀況 所以等於也是請你們也來回應說 那如果這樣的問題是要用人數比例嗎 就先定資格然後人數比例 還是說你們真的要執法 執法那到時候執法又不見得通過這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3623.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3646.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那所以請衛福部一併回答我們剛剛這幾位委員但是我不贊成放在執法我們就是要在這裡明定法律明定因為他他的核心這個是審議小組不是調查小組這已經是調查完以後的審議了對 任定委員會右照法任定委員會也就是審議小組的功能所在所以我們很在意因為他最後決定要不要裁處 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3647.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3672.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
因為我過去參與就很常事實上因為這樣比例下根本就不裁處因為會投票 投票的結果因為今天只有兩個兒少團體的代表然後七個事實上是幼教的那當然比例上 甚至政府部門有五個怎麼會投票會成功呢其實換個角度來想 這個人一小組的話你全部都是官方代表 行政代表你要扛起所有的責任也不見得對行政部門是好的啊那我們把各個領域的人代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3673.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3698.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
其實連托育人員代表也都要放進來因為會試射到他們的勞動權益所以你讓托育人員的代表出來家長代表婦女團體代表居托人員的代表這些人都進來的話事實上比較多元然後比較關照得到你也不用扛起全部的責任然後他在審議的時候也比較持平一點可以各個領域都關照得到的看待請會府部做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3704.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3724.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
各委員剛才所提到的部分我們大概第一個是針對這個未來人員的部分的話如果照我們剛才的建議我們會建議說是否可能因為他對於將來這些即使是專責人員的資格然後我們也會把他放到授權的事項裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3726.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3753.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以各縣市的部分他將來這一類的人員當然就是根據這樣的資格然後去做相關的訓練所以他是可以被列管的所以他的資格可以有一定程度的要求那這邊先做一個說明所以第二個是剛才淑芬委員所提到的就是確實是現在對於一些這種對如果是虐兒的事件家內跟家外現在多數的縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3753.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3777.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
其實處理的機制如果是家外大概比較會在家房中心家內的話大概會在兒少大概會在婦幼科或者是兒少科大概會有這樣子的一個處理所以確實現在會有相關的不同但是因為托育的機構將來都會統一在家外其實各縣市目前大概在處理上它的處理機制大體上都已經有一定程度的固定 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3778.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3792.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
第三個就是對於未來這個不管叫做調查小組還是審議小組他的成員的部分我們現在建議的條文裡面大體上絕大多數的成員都參照了林淑芬委員的這個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3794.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3814.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們現在主要是針對勞權跟副團的部分我們現在沒有特別去納進來主要的思考是第一個因為未來是各縣市通通都要訂所以除了本島的縣市包括離島的縣市都要訂所以在籌組委員的時候我們也考慮到每個縣市在籌組的難易度 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3815.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3843.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那第二個是我們也是覺得是不是在這個因為他審議的基本上都是一些主要都是針對這個違法的事件所以尤其是針對適不適合去擔任工作人員的事件我們會建議是不是把這樣成員的資格就比較聚焦在這個兒童的安全的比較偏向兒童安全的部分去做這樣的思考那這個是這樣的一個建議那最後一個是淑芬委員有提到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3844.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3870.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
有關是不是在審議的時候納進專家學者或者是相關的專科醫師這個概念我們是完全認同的只是因為我們是看到說我們現在的條文在最後一項的調查程序跟審議相關的辦法在裡面那這個部分我們原來是覺得這個部分因為它是一個比較偏向一個列席跟提供專業意見的性質我們會覺得這個是不是在未來授權的辦法裡面來做統一的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3871.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3897.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
但是這個概念基本上我們是完全認同的以上說明署長這邊你好像還是沒有講清楚有一個剛剛署分委員提的一個很重要的點因為過去幼兒園的確它的一個大概就是教育局 責成教育局去做可是現在如果說你的保母跟托嬰中心是分屬兩軌不同的一個是以後未來統一是 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3897.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3909.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
兒托科來做處理嗎 否則過去的話家內的的確事實上是家防中心 可是家外的真的是保母是在我們的兒托 可是在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3911.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3933.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
機構的話就變成到社福中心會不會有 有的縣市真的是執行兩軌的那種狀態裡面那你這個專責人員就會很多元那你是未來一定會整併到全部整併到兒托科嗎因為這部分 剛剛淑芬我也有講那個現況可是我沒有聽到你有回來是以後未來會直接整併到兒托科當然我們就覺得這個專責人員就比較沒有疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3934.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3949.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為教育局他就是直接就是教育局的人只是我說那時候我說派一個完全沒有經驗只有兩個月的一個月聘顧問完全沒有經驗的人那現在可是現在你分屬不同的單位的時候這以後也會訓練這樣的專責人員嗎想問的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3954.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3967.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟我們報告其實現在對於在托育機構的管理其實各縣市他的這個在縣市政府層級律定的管理機關其實每個縣市稍微會有一些不一樣確實是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3969.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3993.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
但是我們這個部分因為有地方制度法的關係基本上我們會尊重地方制度法對於權限的設計但是在這個在兒童法這個條文設計之後地方政府只要是處理這一類事件的人我們不會管他是在地方政府的哪一個部門工作而是將他只要負責這項調查工作的人我們會將他來做調訓來做列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3993.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4020.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
所以我們會聚焦在工作人員的資格和經驗以及能力的訓練那但是在這邊其實確實是必須跟委員說明的是地方政府的部分他其實每一個縣市政府不管是在兒少或者是在長照或者其他的社福領域部分目前各縣市他們的這個機關的設計其實在多元性上面其實慢慢都會有地方政府自己的一些規範跟想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4021.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4050.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那在地方制度法的架構底下其實一定的程度我們大概沒有辦法要求地方政府一定必須怎麼設但是我們會對人員的資格的部分我們會來做比較嚴格的管理大概先做這樣的說明 謝謝想還是要就教因為我覺得這題要討論清楚因為已經是在幼照法之後再修然後引發了這麼多的問題我們一定要在那個兒托法再去避免因為這事實上是一個法律上要去保障孩子的最佳利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4050.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4063.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
的時候要去考量的為什麼這樣講因為你你如果跟他提這樣子的話還是沒有解決說對沒有錯假設這個人受過訓我三年前受過訓為什麼三年前我 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4064.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4086.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
今天36個人不見得我每一個區剛好發生這種不當對待那我三年受過訓有沒有符合你們的資格可是我很多東西我沒有處理的經驗我去判讀所以過去我們看家內家外的時候為什麼家外不會成案因為過去如果社工一直在看家內的時候他的確會以家內的標準去看家外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4086.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4105.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那樣的一個狀態所以後來我們才會建議說家外家內的應該要分流不要併在一起那現在好家外要分流可是如果人還是用我們的社福中心的人然後另外一個他不見得每一次大概會碰到家外他搞不好五年才碰到一次那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4106.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4133.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個我這個區就是剛好我五年才碰到一次甚至裡面有這麼多人輪的話你怎麼去解決這個問題所以我覺得把它討論清楚以防堵未來的那個狀況我們不能再向過去一直不斷的讓悲劇發生所以才會希望說你們要不要充分的去確定各縣市的狀況然後你們要寫出比較符合我們現在至少我不知道能不能反而百分之百可是已經有發生過的事情不可以讓它再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4135.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4155.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那個淑芬委員剛剛這樣子我在講這個審議小組的成員的代表性好了因為我們要有婦女團體不然的話遇到有性別事件的時候我們是希望要有性別的觀點這個是很重要的另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4156.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4177.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
勞工權益促進團體代表或許大家聽起來有點奇怪可是我也不堅持是因為其實有時候不當對待跟那個他的勞動條件或者是照顧比例或者是說工時可能也會有一點相關在這種狀況裡面我們這裡有托育人員代表居托人員代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4178.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4195.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
勉强是可以这个代表因为这个就他们关系自己的劳动权益上的从劳动权益观点去关照到整个事件的发生这样子或许可以但是妇女团体代表我是坚持一定要放进去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4196.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4225.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
因為會有差異的是有的是性別事件加上不當對待就變成說授訓裡面要有性別事件相關的這個不是我是說要婦女團體代表要有婦女團體代表我覺得放上去應該沒有問題至少應該要有那因為有拘托人員代表按托育人員代表所以我們勞工權益促進這個代表我就不堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4242.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4259.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
在機關回應之前我想問一下托育或兒童福利相關團體代表這是什麼因為後面又有托育專業服務那意思是說今天那兒童權益的這部分是誰來把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4261.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4277.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為托育或兒童福利代表然後托育專業服務那幾乎都是現場的或者是托育的專業或是托育的團體或者是托育相關科系的老師那兒童福利呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4278.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4308.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我覺得幾乎都不見了這樣的寫法反而是 托育可能寫的太多次了是不是主管機關代表兒童福利相關團體代表法律專家托育專業服務或其他服務家長團體代表其實為什麼我們的不行呢所以我是說我們勞工權益代表可以拿掉照我們的版本居托人員代表托育人員代表家長代表兒童福利或是幼兒保育的福利的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4309.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4328.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
幼兒保育或兒童福利為什麼不能照我們的老實說我們的就是這樣行政代表嘛幼兒保育或者是兒童福利的專家代表法律專家再來就是托育服務團體代表居托人員托育人員代表家長代表婦女團體代表托育的專家也是要的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4338.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4352.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好我們請王玉敏委員發言可不可以請主管機關說明一下因為如果按照原來46條這邊要去處理的這個審議小組是要處理疑似已經就是不適任或違法的事件對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4353.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4376.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以這個可能大家要先釐清就是說這個小組的它的功能跟目的性在哪裡它並不是權益事件的審議它是一個違法已經涉及到不適合或違法事件那我覺得我們應該仔細去看就是說現行各縣市的處理針對這樣的一個違法事件它一定要的成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4377.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4405.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
就是說如果從不同角度一定要的成員是什麼因為如果按照原來蘇芬委員這個修正動議的寫法這個委員會的組成他的規模到底要有多大那現行的運作是不是有辦法做到這樣子另外一個就是他是不是應該要有這個實效性就每一個縣市的確有差異那現在的列舉是一定要有還是就是這些範圍之內可以去 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4406.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4426.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你可能没有了解到我们的概念我们的概念是调查结果报告处调查结果出来了那可能要有审议这个结果的小组我们不是调查小组我们的架构是所以我说要理清嘛你是我们的架构我们的条文有写就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4427.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4451.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你去調查的時候你在兩天以內就要進行處理就要開始處理你要直接派員或是組成這個小組去進行調查那你的調查結果出來的時候要設一個審議小組去審查這個調查那我們說我們在講說那這個已經不是第一線的第一時間的調查了這個是審查調查結果的審議這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4454.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4469.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以调查跟审议的小组是不一样的我们这个是后面的阶段的所以应该不是时效性的问题了而是代表性而是说关照各种观点 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4471.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4494.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
是不是調查小組關照的觀點是不是足夠的那這樣的看法有沒有偏頗的偏頗在托育人員的有沒有偏頗到行政人員的還是偏頗到只看到兒童的沒有看到其他的因為可能會牽扯到工作權的剝奪可能會牽扯到行者可能會牽扯到其他的這個責任所以我們才是希望說你當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4495.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4507.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
就是要有一些代表性的人進去所以我才說這個誰是代表是核心的問題所以要不能夠授權給他們我們要放在法律裡面明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4510.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4534.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那主管機關要不要說明一下就是他是第二層的就是調查報告出來之後再再架設一個審議小組然後再審議那這個在事務上的運作他大概要多久然後他的他是不是是在這個調查小組之上我覺得這個整個層級架構要理清清楚因為過去是調查小組那現在多了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4535.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4553.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
審議小組到底他的成績到哪裡那他是不是可以推翻調查小組的規定然後他的那個並不是推翻調查小組的規定的調查我們是要決議這個個案的這個懲處是不是成立他的停止要幾年等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4554.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4580.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
就他處分要多重啊是這樣子我要講一下幼照法的確他前面先行調查調查之後呢當然調查小組因為他根據訪談跟影片看然後整個狀況裡面會形成一個建議是像最後會是到認定委員會去做認定那我們現在不叫做認定我們叫做審議小組那審議小組大概就是幼照法裡面的認定委員會的一個功能所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4581.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4609.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那只是我不知道衛福部要不要去針對於剛剛淑芬委員還有我剛剛提的那個做說明是跟各位委員報告那目前在條文設計上面其實院版和各委員的版本在那個整個調查機制流程上設計是相近的也就是他是經過調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4611.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4639.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
調查完之後再送到審議小組審議所以他兩層機制確實是有分開但是對於這個審議小組的委員是要設計到多大或者要到多廣的範圍那淑恩委員這邊確實是有這個跟我們的建議這個範圍團體範圍是這個範圍寬窄有一些列出來的部分會有些不同那我們會我們原來的想法是比較單純就是確實是如同剛才像王委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4640.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4660.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
即使是在審議的階段是不是也是可以考慮要不要就是聚焦在處理違法事件的這樣的一個角度去設計這個審議小組的成員那淑芬委員的部分則是覺得說因為審議的部分是不是在審議階段需要納進更寬更多元的觀點來做這樣子的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4662.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4679.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們當時會覺得是不是要聚焦其實如同剛才所報告的確實是我們也考慮到有一些地方政府的縣市因為這個將來都是地方政府要去組成但是每一個地方政府當地的資源確實是不是能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4681.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4697.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
確實的組成到包含到這麼多類別的委員的部分其實尤其是在離島的地區的時候我們確實是有一些思考所以我們會建議我們原來會做這樣的一個我們會做這樣子的建議那也請委員來做參考以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4703.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4718.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你講的後半段我不知道就是說我們講的居托人員的代表啦托育人員的代表啦你說這個是比較偏鄉或是我們這個不是以縣市為單位的嗎每一個縣市會找不到這樣的代表嗎第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4718.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4737.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們這不是在聚焦處理違法事件就是因為聚焦在處理你剛剛講說我們聚焦在處理違法事件所以我們讓他代表單純一點我們就處理違法事件可是什麼叫做處理違法事件處理違法事件你就是要去關照照整個違法的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4738.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4766.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
他的责任是怎么造成他的成因怎么导致这个果所以你要关照的面向很多要有女性的观点的要有劳动的观点的要有儿童福利的观点的要有儿童权益家长的观点的所以我们才讲说这个东西很重要当然也有时候就是还必须要医事人员提供的专业的意见进来让大家参考所以在这种状况里面当然也要法律专家 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4767.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4792.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那你們就說怕說組不起來我真的覺得以縣市為單位的話你會找不到幼兒保育或兒童福利專家嗎幼兒保育或兒童福利專家的話你全國性的去找來我想你可以開放這個要件沒有地方限於說台東縣政府只能請我台東縣的兒童福利專家沒有嘛法律專家也一定找得到嘛托育服務團體代表台東會找不到托育服務團體代表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4795.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4810.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那再來就居托人員代表托育人員代表這個在台東會找不到嗎家長代表這個台東也一定有嗎那婦女團體代表你說會找不到或者是你可以找你可以開放找全國性的會是怎麼樣的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4813.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4827 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我了解 剛剛衛福部提的為什麼這樣講因為過去為什麼地方政府不找因為還是欠債經費如果要找到其他縣市的話他就要給付交通費有些縣市就是會乾脆不找我不是說這樣子 交通費會很多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4829.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4856.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
你開有時候案子多的話他交通費這些他考慮他可能會考慮到這個我倒是覺得當然我們還是以維護孩子權益該要列的人就是列不過我認為我是不是可是事實上沒有人是願意說我願意來服務的而不計較這些那個的嗎會找不到嗎真的說一定要交通費我才要去嗎不是交通費還有一個是時間如果是你說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4857.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4879.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
台北跑到屏東去或是跑到台東這個我說我是在提到過去地方政府的困難不代表說地方政府可以說今天如果定下來不去做我只是提到有這個那我建議這一條是不是保留為什麼因為我認為如果沒有解決掉因為這個東西非常重要因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4880.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4895.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
自為關鍵所以我覺得今天社交署應該去看教育部他們後來修改修改為什麼再去修改甚至後來認定委員會都要受訓才可以放到資料庫裡面人才資料庫為什麼因為過去沒有訓練的狀況即便律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4898.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4925.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
都不見得站在孩子權益上去思考這些因為過去律師他打官司的時候看問題看得非常的嚴重都會認為這還好就不會被認定所以後來為什麼教育部都要求認定委員會都要受訓在這樣狀況底下如果衛福部沒有充分掌握現在過往已經先起跑的幼照法產生了這麼多問題而且著著實實在這幾年也影響了孩子的權益這麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4926.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4952.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
嚴重那我認為應該不要在這時候討論你要想清楚是說去問然後還有根據我們剛剛提的東西去做解決這樣會比較完備因為修了法就是定下來當初就像教育部當初我們一直在跟他講說不要這樣修不要這樣修了最後呢這三年來到底孩子受到什麼影響很大的影響就跟之前就已經在修法的時候就已經警告不要這樣子調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4952.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4975.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以我還是不希望說今天如果我們又有這樣子沒有去根據過去往的狀況然後去修然後修出來的東西是不是妨害孩子的權利那所以我們的代表性是應該優先被考量的而不是說擔心不能沒有經費不能諮詢而且台灣的兒女案件真的有多到說你會不足以支付這個交通費嗎有案才開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4977.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4996.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這個我是在講過去地方政府他們會這樣做而且人做選擇的時候他有些人不選擇所以我說為什麼執法非常重要如果竹分委員說要訂到前面我們當然也同意說把資格要件放進來可是這個要件就像我們不會講婦女團體我們會比較在意的是性平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4996.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5025.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
人事上是在裡面的因為如果要處理性的問題她畢竟有受過訓練性別議題所以婦女團體婦女團體當然很多元但我們假設的性別議題性別觀點其實就是婦女團體當然婦女團體地方政府可能是找一個可是也不見得有受過訓練因為我們覺得有受過性別議題我們想像的婦女團體跟最後地方政府去找的婦女團體可能會不一樣這個就是牽扯到主政者的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5026.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5036.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
包括那個社政人員可能自己本身都有問題啦那些社會行政考進來的公務員搞不好他都要先去受專業的訓練一下否則他們根本也毫無性別觀點同不同意這題先保留 幫幫他 李卿我覺得這樣子對孩子的權益會比較有保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5047.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5075.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個保留我也同意但是我也希望主管機關這件事情你也要跟地方政府就是去討論就是在委員會裡面委員提出希望是擴大有這麼多那他們實行上面到底有什麼樣的困難另外一個你現在是兩層架構你也是要你調查完之後你的審議也不能太慢你這件事也不能拖就是說你要在一定的期限你的SOP到底是什麼希望下次討論的時候你們自己的想法就是說從調查到審議委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5077.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5093.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
他的組成到開會到定案你這個也不能拖太久吧你不能為了找一個專家然後就是只是為了那個人沒有到位然後去去影響那個開會的時效這個恐怕也不妥這個中央主管機關就可以列明冊以後就叫他們從這個資料庫裡面去找我的意思就是要足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5094.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5120.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以你們這個通牌都要考量還有剛剛月秦委員說要授訊如果再加上要授訊的名單然後怎麼樣是可以比較周延的才有可能實施我覺得你們就做一個通牌考量因為委員拋了很多不同面向的好不好謝謝這樣他就不要白給我們就好了他可以再白賣什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5123.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5124.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以各位還是針對4.6條要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5150.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5167.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好那就4條的保留那我們繼續審查第47條修正冬季有林玉琴委員所提的第一案還有劉建國、范雲等4人提的修正冬季第12案 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5172.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5194.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
來 請行政機關表示意見是 針對第47條的部分那先前跟各位委員比較有跟院版有出入的地方我們大概已經做了一些調整跟盡可能我們去把它納進來那第一個是先前應該是有委員建議在調查報告的部分要能夠通知給 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5196.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5213.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個事件的所涉及的兒童的法定代理人或實際照顧的兒童之人那這個部分我們會參採我們也把它把條文先納進來了那第二個是對於這個調查的結果調查審議的結果如果是有不符的部分是不是可以去提起相關的救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5214.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5240.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那在前一次審查的時候就這個部分也曾經討論過那我們在這邊我們會建議做一個比較小幅的調整那因為未來在調查事件的時候他可能是針對對於兒少本身有一些不當的對待也可能有一些可能是單純行政上的部分所以我們建議在第二項的部分我們文字建議做一個微調把它稍微聚焦在 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5241.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5268.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
兒童的法定代理人或實際照顧之人行為人對於他是違反第36條的調查結果就是針對對兒少的這個就是針對被受託兒童的一些不當對待或者是有這個這樣的問題的部分他的調查結果有不符的時候他可以來議法提起訴願那甚至接下來那個針對調查結果的摘要我們會去做公開的動作 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5271.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5299.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好來請林淑媛我有一個疑問因為限15天以內要把這個調查報告通知這個法定代理人或實際照顧兒童的人那聯同調查報告這個調查報告就是經過審議小組審議過的是不是是在執行面上會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5301.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5321.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
執行面15天這邊在講調查結果應該是針對審議的部分因為後端要提起他後端是要提起可以提起救濟所以應該是針對最後所以這個是審議結束的15天內而不是事件發生的15天內 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5323.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5353.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
因為這個餘15天什麼的15天是事件發生後的15天還是審議結束之後的15天這不對應該是審議結束以後完成審議那完成審議四個字應該放進去吧這是要出的這是要給外卸者 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5355.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5373.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
故意餵家瑜餵家瑜保密跟故意想不講在行為範圍說這個是要加重的你怎麼可能跟人家放在這一塊你要放這個OK但是不是放在這邊他現在是說如果我們要這樣的時候的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5377.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5405.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
跟委員報告 因為現在46條現在是保留那現在我們建議的草案文是在46條的第三項他講的是說對於事件的調查結果應涉審議小組那審議小組其實審議的最後我們是不是要用審議的因為在46條並沒有特別去解 叫做審議的結果或審議的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5406.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5432.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那這個部分的話我們會建議在現在審議的47條的部分我們是不是在這個條文的說明欄去把它講清楚那這個如果是文字需要更明確的話我們是不是用第三甚至用第三項我們必須要非常清楚的界定15天是從什麼時候開始的15天那如果是這樣我們建議47條的第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5435.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5449.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個是將這個後面的調查結果載明事實理由我們是不是直接把它修正成第三項那這樣的話就直接可以對應到它是經過審議小組去審議完成是不是可以這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5451.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5465.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
至少立法說明欄應該要講清楚方向上我們是支持這樣子但是就是說要怎麼寫才會清楚可能要寫一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5479.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5490.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
對 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5493.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5515.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
应该是这样跟委员说明但前条是不是第三项应该是第三项而且那个到底我们给的是审议结果还是调查报告因为有可能审议的结果会对调查报告进行修改修正对所以应该是调查报告应该是审议结果不是调查报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5517.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5538.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因为审议的委员可能会有不同意见所以最重要定的是审议结果所以他应该改的是直辖市县市主管机关应将前条第三项之审议结果以书面载明事实及理由于15日内通知应该是这样的意思的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5539.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5559.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
调查报告有可能就跟审议结果会不同所以他应该是根据那个审议结果调查报告只是一个事件的过程那审议结果是对于事件的调查的处分他已经载明了四十几理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5560.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5584.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
就是說把調查報告裡面認為這個審議結果審議小組認為是但我怕只有審議結果沒有調查報告在裡面所以要不要把調查報告和審議結果同時兩個兩個都放進去調查報告的內容是核心調查報告是做成最後決定的程序但是你審議結果要把調查報告放在裡面對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5587.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5602.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
调查报告及审议结果如果两边有不一致的时候没有 调查报告调查报告就事实调查那审议结果就是审议结果你两个都放进来 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5604.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5628.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以结果要调查的事实就像我们做依旧鉴定一样最后有个鉴定小组所以那个鉴定的意思它有初步的鉴定意见可是最后是由鉴定小组做成的共同决定共同共事做决定所以不会把前面的那个前置作业的内部文件作为你最终的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5629.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5649.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
報告內容所以他應該是以那個審議結果然後要在明事實理由好 我再講為什麼我們重視這一個東西是因為當事人如果不服是要訴願的如果要訴願的時候他一定要了解到就是說事實是怎麼認定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5650.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5671.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那你們事實是怎麼認定的你要讓家長知道那他要採取救濟手段的時候才會知道要怎麼救濟啊對 所以我不能只有審議結果也應該要有調查報告的內容沒有 這個審議結果就包含宰民事實及理由了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5674.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5674.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們應該是以調查報告為主然後把 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5682.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5709.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個審議結果也告訴家長其實家長需要知道是調查報告因為他要知道真相再來就是說他要法律救濟他要法律救濟你的審議結果我不服啊就這個真相我對於你的審議結果我不服啊我要救濟那如果你沒有告訴我真相調查報告我怎麼提出我的救濟的這個防衛的手段內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5712.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5735.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
就是审议结果好OK你讲审议结果也可以但审议结果要包含调查报告中的事实对对对我们现在的文字上就这样写就是把那个打上去就看得很清楚了这审议结果以书面载明事实及理由不是只有说成案或不成案的结果它是包含了事实及理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5737.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5766.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好 我們請王委員 之後再請陳委員好 謝謝主席 針對於這個像是裡面兒童是法定代理人或實際照顧兒童是行為行為人對前項調查結果是決定不符則得依法提出 提起溯源這個就是蘇文委員一直在強調到底如果他將來要依法提起溯源的時候他是要根據調查報告還是要根據審議結果還是兩個都要同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5767.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5795.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
讓他們有機會去溯源 這部分可能還要再釐清或者是定的清楚一點還是那個王參事不曉也可不可以提供意見來 那個陳昭志委員先表示意見 因為相關的我也先表達一下意見那個調查的動作他實在是收集一些他們看得到的 就第一時刻或是說反正就兩天內啟動嘛 看到但是這個資料判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5796.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5813.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個做判斷 很多委員會太多的行政機關都是有這樣的前段作業跟後段然後大家才坐下來用各種觀點和各種角度討論這個證據本身的強度然後我們最後的判斷的一個過程所以當然我相信這樣的審議大家嚴謹的這個組成的這個審議小組他做的東西絕對不會是通過通過他是性侵或性騷等等不會是這麼簡明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5821.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5833.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
一就是根據他們所說的去做說明這個任何一個包括你那個衛福部的資料衛福部專家會議啊健保都是一樣的所以你如果用調查的原始的資料給他那是還沒有經過專家判斷會造成很大的問題很大的問題所以最重要是審議小組的資料怎麼寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5841.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5868.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
怎麼寫最重要而不是一個就是交代的很清楚你的rational是什麼所以我支持審議只能看一份資料不然不得了這糾紛不斷了謝謝好謝謝來請陳醫師最後我們就同意你們的這個修正可以啦因為他有寫要展明事實及理由好謝謝謝謝委員所以最後他那個訴願的對象就是審議結果不會是針對調查報告進行訴願 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5871.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5888.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
不是啦 夙愿对审议结果夙愿但是对对审议结果夙愿一定要牵扯到这个事实是什么所以我对审议结果不服嘛所以我们在审议结果一定会有书面去在你不可以说夙愿只是对于审议结果对啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5891.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5918.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
來 王委員 來如果對事實調查不符呢對於事實調查不符調查報告還是有它的重要性所以這邊可以先保留好 謝謝來 王委員主張先保留因為他 王委員還是希望把那個調查報告放進去調查報告跟審議結果如果能需要並列的時候因為我們不知道這個兩個之間的落差會差異性多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5920.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5944.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個汪城市請你出面吧汪城市我們如果對這個調查的報告完整的事實的調查如果不符呢是跟那個主席跟委員報告因為我們這一條的重點好像是希望能夠讓家長或法定代言人或實際照顧兒童的人他們知道這個結果可以有一些如果不符他的決定可以提救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5945.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5964.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那其實這個救濟依照我們的相關規定應該試試看他是不是可以提訴願那我們訴願法的第一條第二條規定其實是要針對行政處分認為不法違法不當或者是對於依法申請的案件機關有不作為情事的時候是得提起訴願所以這個前提就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5966.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5989.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
一定要是行政處分才可以但是現在如果我們是調查結果這個調查報告其實應該看起來是我們屬於內部機關的一個處理一個調查的一個過程所以好的是這個審議小組做的依照這個調查報告大家再做一個比較仔細的審議之後做成的結果這個就可能會有處分會有懲處這個才叫做行政處分這個來對他做救濟才會符合我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5996.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6017.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以我們在這裡要確認一件事情就是說這個調查報告都是建議性質的他會適時的調查還有包括建議的處理的方式這個是建議屬性的那只有審議結果才是才能做成這個行政上的處分的這個法律性對以上會比較是我們所謂的行政處分好那王委員還要保留嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6027.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6052.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這樣我瞭解那個王三世所提供的這些法律見解以上 王三世講你就瞭解了好謝謝好那我們第47條就依照行政院提案林月琴委員修正動議林淑雯委員所提案來修正通過好繼續處理保留第49條 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6057.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6084.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
來 請行政機關表示意見第49條當時在保留的主要的原因是第一個是林淑彭委員有提案希望能夠針對居托服務中心的相關工作人員然後第二個是當時也有討論到文字的部分到底用委辦還是委託那這個部分我們大概文字都已經做了相關的文字的整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6084.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6110.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那我們大概統一第一個是居住中心我們把它納進來第二個是在前後整個草案條文我們大概就現在全部條文一併整理全部用委託的文字那大概都有整理完成那請各位委員參考好 各位委員針對保留條文第49條行政機關也在做文字上的調整請各位過目之後表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6115.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6115.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
來 請林淑穎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6120.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6147.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
抱歉我不曉得我們有沒有提修正動議我也搞不清楚就是說有執行面的問題有一點要說明就是說托育機構在聘僱主管人員托育機構托育人員工作人員或居家托育服務中心聘僱工作人員前應該要檢測就是前僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6149.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6176.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
微退系統還有短期內如單日代理人員如何事先核准執行面的這個問題因為我們這個是要求他必須要直接現在還有這個單日育嬰留職停薪要受託這種問題這種都臨時性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6179.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6189.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個會不會在你們系統要進要退要進如何事先核准短期的要如何事先核准執行面會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6194.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6219.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
跟委員報告這個部分的話在只要是聘僱之前他會需要去對他的38條 39條 40條主要是針對他的消極資格要去做定期的查詢那目前的話其實針對在依照兒童法本來就已經開始有固定期的在不管是任職前或者是任職中都已經定期有在做那我們只是這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6220.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6236.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
而托把单独立法的关系我们把它拉进来这个部分我们都会持续的来操作那而至于现在因为劳工法令的部分有容许这些员工可能在请假的部分有弹性那但是如果他的请假的内容不会影响到他干 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6238.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6259.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
应该是雇佣者中间的牢固关系没有雇佣关系的改变单纯的请假的话这个部分应该不会发生额外需要再去做资格查证第二个是这一类人员因为有请假的时候现在在管理的规定上面本来就有要求机构要准备有相关的备用人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6259.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6283.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以即使是这个因为工作人员会有这样请假的情况那这个机构的雇主端他是要备妥这个适当的这些备用人力然后去保障这些这个尤其是机构这些受照顾的小朋友的权利我记得好像有个案有个案是这样说的就是说他已经不在那个机构服务了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6283.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6301.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
他的前雇主还没有把他退出就是他好像都还没有退出他们那个系统类似这样子如果他的劳雇关系确定已经解除个案的部分我们将来我们来协助他处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6302.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6326.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以就是个案处理既然雇佣关系已经解除那就没有理由因为登记的部分是雇主的雇主有其他的原因然后这个没有办法让他到下一个下一个雇主的地方去工作这我们个案来处理那我现在讲就临时的单日的短期的代理的人员要怎么事先核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6329.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6349.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
臨時可以來代理你知道這個勞動條件不太好機構會有機構的備用的人力的部分其實是事前性的處理這個通常我們就我們以往在行政管理的經驗是機構會事先處理而不是等到同仁請假才臨時找人代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6350.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6376.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那这个部分如果说确实执行面有现在真的是很难说现在很多人民今天就说老板我不想再做了然后就直接不来了那你真的是要去找人来单日代理或者是短期代理那单日留庭啊或短期代理没有人力就是要去找这种临时来的否则也是另一种违规啊那要怎么处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6380.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6403.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
確實是現在要求我們現在是有要求機構本來就是因為有照顧比例的關係因為你們都要事先核准所以為了維持這個比例本來就有要求機構要有儲備的備用人力那這個備用人力的資格或者是管理本來是機構的雇主是應該要來處理那如果是一旦備用人力這個規範有法則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6409.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6417.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
有有明定嗎沒有的話他沒有弄他到時候就是必須要因為我們都要事先核准我現在問的是執行面問題這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6419.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6442.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以如果他没有足够的如果他没有足够的人力那就是他的人力达不到设置的标准所以我们就会要求但是就临时就跟你讲现在年轻人真的很多你想象不到的老板我不做了然后今天今天下班跟你讲我不做明天他就不来了真的很普遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6445.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6464.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
厨工像厨工也會厨工也是說廚師說我明天在外面做很累所以我的意思是說真的是現在的勞動力市場因為勞動力短缺的非常嚴重我們想像不到的問題都會發生都會找臨時 需要臨時來那臨時來的這種部分要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6482.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6504.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
跟委員報告我們現在在管理上面目前這個托育的機構絕大多數那都有跟政府簽準公共化托育的契約私立的部分我們現在對於這個準公的部分因為有給他比較額外的協助所以他的人力比本來就有提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6505.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6529.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
就比要求对于准工的部分透过补助协助机构把他的照顾人力比提高所以一旦如果在只要他的同不要同时离职的同仁发生非常多的话一般来讲机构并不会马上就碰触到所谓违反设置标准的人力比例的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6530.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6552.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你讲的是理论的我现在就是这样你现在的那个人力比是多少现在设置标准是1比5法规的1比5但是他跟政府签准公共契约是1比41比4到1比5之间的这个部分是政府有补助有奖励补助给企业机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6552.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6563.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以基站他达不到1比4的时候我们中间会有一个缓冲收拖30个是不是要1比4达到公托要5个 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6566.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6590.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
5个保姆吗如果30个的话除以4应该7.5那这算整数要8个那如果1比5要6个8个那他会多两个他少一个的话他少一个的话变7个那7个有符合吗7个的话他会不符合准公共但是还达得到设置标准所以你说如果不要太多人离子只要一个离子就不符合了所以他还不会达到违反设置标准 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6591.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6620.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
在降到准工以下之前我们就本来就可以要求他去有他等于就是实质上的一个缓冲那他有一定的期限感会把人力补足我是要提醒你说有时候是不是类似这种临时人家就是辞职的如果可以证明是这种状况的那你可以允许他是不是你不要你都叫人家事先核准嘛那可不可以当日当天核准临时的并不是固定成年都这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6621.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6643.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
類似這種情境能不能有一點彈性我的意思是只要這樣子而不是說我們反對跟委員報告這個執行面的部分的話是不是容我們這個找先是大家一起來討論在執行的做法的部分我們來試試看盡量給這個在執行上面保留出相關的彈性出來讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6644.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6664.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不管是业者或者是地方政府在操作上面能够相关谈论这个部分我们是不是可以对啦刚才的30个那他要6个嘛他少掉一个就连那个设置条例都不行他如果是6个当到5个以下的时候他确实没有没有不要讲当到5个以下少一个就离只一个就发生问题了 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6665.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6683.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
可是真的真的這種狀況很普遍那這種狀況你你允許他就是說你可以證明他是臨時的然後真的是剛到的那當天一定要當天一定要這個處理好了你們去你們去想想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6689.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6702.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
要怎么样处理这种有一点点行政上的弹性这个行政上的那个处理我是要告诉你说你把他弄死下去真的现代大家都违规违法的很多我不便宜了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6708.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6735.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個部分我們會這個部分我們會找縣市來做討論但是文字的部分我們跟委員拜託是不是可以有可以一定先維持現在第這個49條現在的文字因為他其實主要他還是在設置標準的執行的部分其實跟49條還稍微有一點點距離那但是委員所提示的部分我們會另外另案來處理但是因為你還是有一個前一個字啊所以這個是不是也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6739.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6763.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你這個聘僱錢這個字還留著嗎現在已經是這樣現行在兒少法的時候規定已經是這樣可以我有第三輪嗎沒關係 現在是要依照你的版本要通過你叫我的版本通過沒有啦 其實沒有叫我的版本因為它有一個前置 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6765.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6789.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
前次你們兩個看我怎麼欺負了很多好啦 隨便你們啦沒有意見啦 反正到時候大家都是把頭埋在沙子裡面啦其實真正執行面不可能大家都違規啦變成大家都違規啦因為一個離子他媽想去欺負一個要錢但是你把錢拿掉有道德壓力啊我也不行啊 我也不堅持啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6790.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6801.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
把錢拿掉是有道德壓力的啦我也不堅持啦但是我告訴你是大家都大家都違法違規啦只是有沒有查到會變成這種狀況要維持原狀就維持原狀我們意見你們要不要再宣傳一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6817.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6839.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們會建議是不是在這一條的部分在第49條的第一項我們是托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心工作人員就把這個居托整列進去然後在第三項的部分就是托育機構聘僱主管人員機構托育人員工作人員或 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6840.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6855.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
居家托育服務中心或受托單位聘僱工作人員前應查詢其有第38條第39條或第40條第一項規定情形以聘僱者應定期查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6856.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6884.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
然後第四項一樣也是針列就是托育機構於聘僱主管人員托育機構人員工作人員或居家托育服務中心受委托單位聘僱工作人員前應檢據相關文件以下跟條文相同好 各位委員針對這樣文字的修正有沒有其他意見好 如果沒有我們就依行政院提案林書文委員提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6885.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6888.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
修正通過繼續審查保留條文第50條 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6894.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6922.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
草案第五十條的部分各委員的版本大概都是針對違法事件的時候是不是要做暫停收拖的規定我們大概都有參採進來那另外也參考了這個張雅玲委員的修正動議我們在第一項的最後一段那因為我們原來現在是做加強輔導暫停新收拖那也參考張雅玲委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6923.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6937.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那是不是在情節重大的時候可以暫停整個托育服務不是只有新托的連現有收托的都全部暫時停托那我們就把這個按照情節程度的輕重我們把它甄列進來律師會議員我想我自己在修正就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6951.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6967.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
要拉到情節重大才暫停嗎有時候是是狀況有一些上代釐清那我有一些事實還在釐清期間我們是不是也授權給行政部門仍有先暫停托育服務的這一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6971.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6992.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
就是說不必要等到情節重大因為情節重大可能是一個結果調查結果出來了但如果還在現況還在釐清當中的我們就仍擁有這個先暫停托育要求他暫停托育服務的這一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6995.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7019.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就是必要時把這個權利授權給行政部門去判定不要等到調查結果以後情節重大啦把情節重大拿掉啦或必要時得令其暫停新託兒童或暫停托育服務這樣是更更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7021.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7030.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
彈性更大而且可能這樣子是符合需求暫停你也可以暫停他一個月到時候到時候看調查狀況出來繼續暫停還是什麼的可以喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7041.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7066.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那第五十條的部分那我們就建議第一項的部分做文字的修正那我先直接先整個第一項直轄市縣市主管機關之息托育機構所屬托育相關人員居家托育人員及與其共同居住之人設有第46條第一項所定違法事件時應及通知受托兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人並於行政調查 刑事偵查或法院審理期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7067.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7093.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
協助托育機構及居家托育人員依法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人意願轉介收托之兒童並加強訪視輔導必要時得令其暫停新收托兒童或暫停托育服務好可以但我現在在這裡講一下我們的版本本來就沒有情節重大這四個字是我們這一個新修正就照我們的版本了OK |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7097.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7115.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我是要講情節重大那個不是我們的概念不是脫蒙的概念沒有那個是張雅玲委員提的啦好沒關係那各位沒有意見了齁那我們就依照行政會提案修正通過繼續審查第52案 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7120.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7149.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
原來保留第52條是針對托育人員每年應受的訓練課程那在上一次審議的時候委員大概對於應該上訓練的課程裡面覺得需要處理的議題包括了一個是性別平等課程那第二個是有關事故預防傷害以及相關是不是甚至對於這類是不是要做演練尤其是演練的部分希望能夠是有一個定期舉行的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7149.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7166.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以我們這次52條在文字上面我們做了一個處理那第52條第一項的部分我們就把它要求每兩年所應該接受的聯席要包括性別平等的課程那托育專業第二項那托育專業人員在受 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7168.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7185.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
應該在他提供受托育服務前兩年內或者是開始提供托育服務三個月內完成八小時以上的兒童基本救命術訓練而且每兩年要再完成八小時的這樣的一個基本救命術訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7186.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7211.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
以及三小時以上事故傷害預防及處理的演練所以這個是就是每兩年都必須要訓練那直轄市縣市主管機關為了要完成這些訓練我們在增訂了第三項所以直轄市縣市主管機關要自行或委託相關機關來做這些訓練跟辦理演練的動作那托育機構跟居家托育服務中心都要能夠一起來協助以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7219.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7223.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那各位針對行政計畫的說明有其他意見來請王一鳴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7227.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7253.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個是上次大家有討論比較多的基本上這一個事故傷害還有那個基本救命術的訓練跟演練這個是蠻重要的那另外你們提到說縣市主管機關每季要辦理相關的訓練課程演習英語協助每季的話那個頻率你們有跟地方政府討論過嗎就是說各地方政府的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7254.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7261.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
以美季的方式去開辦相關的課程有沒有辦法做到有沒有去討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7266.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7293.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個部分的話因為它是每季要去辦理那縣市是可以透過自行來辦理或者是委託相關的專業團體來訓練所以這個如果有外有外面公司協力的機制的話每季來辦我們推我們的這個整體的研判應該縣市在執行上面應該還可以做得到有討論過沒有單獨額外跟縣市討論但是我們大概評估各個縣市的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7293.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7312.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
他如果是可以找到民間的協力單位的話這個部分應該是可以來處理對 這個是我的提醒因為不能只是中央立法地方你要考量到各縣市的那個量因為你講的美劑如果他做不到那怎麼辦就是因為這樣寫進去是相對比較沒有彈性而且是至少美劑 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7314.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7333.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以等於一年要有四次喔我是不太知道每個地方政府量能怎麼樣但是其實各縣市的資源差距是有落差的我不知道你們這個計是 概念是怎麼來這個可能要比較審慎一點 這個是我的提醒可能要真的好好評估一下那請立書委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7336.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7363.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好在第二項裡面的課程名稱就是說倒數我不曉得倒數因為我的這個編排不一定是倒數第幾行OK來第二項就是說要受每一年內要再完成8小時以上的兒童基本救命術的訓練3小時以上的嬰兒事故傷害我建議再加個預防就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7364.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7371.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
嬰兒事故傷害預防及處理訓練因為這就是課程名稱加一個預防兩個字上去有了我們提供給委員的建議文字我們會把預防留到電台現在有一個疑問就是說我們已經這個基本救命術那他這裡的處理演練是要處理演練什麼內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7394.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7417.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
是要在教室裡面訓練還是還是怎樣就是要訓練什麼要講清楚一下然後那個睡眠我們上一次討論好像是講到說說明欄的時候要把睡眠安全的職能要放進去有放進去嗎有嗎睡眠因為睡眠促使的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7419.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7433.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們好像是說要在說明嵐裡面要增加為了避免嬰幼兒因事故傷害死亡托嬰中心事故傷害課程也包含要強化睡眠安全職能如趴睡或是睡眠環境不安全導致兒童窒息死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7434.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7461.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這個要放到立法說明欄裡面要把那個上課的內容涵蓋進去睡眠的部分的話因為大概概念上它是包在事故傷害事故的部分底下那我們那個會遵照委員的要求我們在那個立法的說明欄裡面把睡眠的相關的部分我們把它拉進來 謝謝那那個處理訓練有救命術以外你基本救命術那你還要訓練什麼也要讓大家知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7463.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7463.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
來 歡迎你的請願 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7466.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7493.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我針對那個後邊的就是三小時以上事故傷害預防及處理就好了因為後邊就有一個與一次以上的緊急救護的情境演練所以我不知道你這邊還有什麼處理演練就把演練兩個字刪掉另外一個你的課程這些到底有沒有訂一些實質為什麼我這樣問因為過去曾經有上居家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7494.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7515.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
找了一個全部都在上消防今天居家安全不是消防居家安全義務梗塞居家安全利弊今天孩子跌落傷害居家事實上是最高結果怎麼都在上消防如果沒有明定課程大綱跟我們的師資甚至上課師資還有在講風水流年的今天風水流年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7516.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7535.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
搞得好就不會不會有居家安全的事故嗎不是這樣就是我的意思是因為過去有些保姆團體真的就是由他理監事來上課那這些理監事受過什麼訓練沒有啊那為什麼理監事可以大量這樣上課上的課的內容有時候我去聽我都覺得怎麼會是上這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7535.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7549.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以我認為資格要求應該要在哪邊去授權去訂會比較好一點否則的話你只管控上課上課背後的私資沒有被要求的話我覺得也是一大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7553.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7577.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個在第二項月薪委員這個提示的處理演練那個演練拿掉我們配合辦理那那個師資的部分對不起 因為也許是投影的那個螢幕的不夠寬我們在最後一項 麻煩同仁拉一下就是現在在最後一項授權的部分其實對於這個辦理單位師資時數核給的部分這個原來在條文裡面我們大概都有建議有相關的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7578.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7602.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那委員的這個提示我們也會把要訓練的內容跟施肢的部分未來在執行面我們可以來做處理要確定要課程大綱為什麼這樣講因為那時候我們去報案考核的時候就講幼童專用車的安全怎麼通通在地震跟火災幼童專用車我們講的事實上是孩子接送安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7603.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7631.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們看簡報通通在上地震跟火災又不是上幼童專用車地震火災就上在建物的地震火災跟幼童專用車有什麼關係類似這種問題那過去我們去看保姆也是有這種問題所以你不是只有講說那個項目實施方式可能你的課程內容跟大綱有沒有被要求否則的話科目它的標都寫幼童專用車接送安全可是裡面的簡報通通寫的根本跟那個完全沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7632.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7661.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
表示施肢跟因為現在有有一個什麼叫安全雜誌什麼協會到處都在上課安全好像大家都可以上可是安全是對孩子講自為關鍵自為重要那所以我希望說你在訂執法的時候要把這些東西都訂進去以上來 謝謝林孫委員我是在請教一下就是說我們要8小時的兒童基本救命術的訓練嘛那這8小時是不是包含在每年的18個小時裡面內涵了 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7666.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7687.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
内涵内涵了目前是内涵这样内涵是不是会占掉非常多的死数18小时就8小时10小时他的某些知能我不知道就第一次拿到证照之后因为证照大概两如果是拿证的话实际上是两年那个证才要换 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7688.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7715.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以過去的做法會有說隔年只要上四小時如果他前面有拿這樣子才不會每年佔掉時數太多反而會不利於我們其他專業科目要去推動的像托育如果相關兒少全法有修改的時候那要用什麼時間現在又被要求要上性評那很多專業課程甚至他們照顧孩子專業倫理這些東西可能有時候都沒有辦法再再三的去強調有沒有考慮就是說這種技能訓練出來像過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7718.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7744.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
紅十字會拿到的它事實上是正式兩年的那我不知道說過去社家署在做這個的時候你們的因應是什麼否則上八小時的話每年都要上的話會變成是你佔掉很大的時數可能有些專業訓練就沒辦法進去有沒有考慮到說今年八小時完整上完的時候隔年上四小時這個可能要去考慮因為真的那個每年訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7745.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7774.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
可是勤進研練要做 每一年勤進研練要做勤進研練跟8小時的訓練因為你事實上上太多課保姆也是很負擔人他這是每兩年那還好OK嗎OK喔那就照這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7775.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7784.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
的文字喔好各位沒有意見的話那我們就依照行政院提案那委員提案來修正通過繼續怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7790.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7809.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
跟委員報告一下那個我們現在同仁在在上那個螢幕上面在處理文字那個現在框起來黃底的處理雨應該要拿掉處理沒問題你們這樣的速度真的是在讓我雨要留著對不起你只要把演練拿掉沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7815.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7823.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
確定一下 那個文字當然沒問題你這樣處理的速度讓我感覺到非常的惶恐跟汗顏所以我們休息五分鐘 謝謝我們剛才講的那個內涵可是你的條文裡面不是看得很清楚我們在立法說明欄是不是也要放進去就是說兩年的八小時都其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7843.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7844.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
就是要含在一年18小時裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7876.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7897.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們後面那個47樓最後一項那個有沒有改文字我剛看有沒有聽到第一項審議小組的什麼結果還是要公開嗎所以第三項要不要文字有修嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7903.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7904.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
是調查結果嗎 審議小組的審議結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7946.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7955.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
法院的最後判決書是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7972.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7981.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
就是等到 所謂審議調查的時候他有的身處 以前是完全因為為什麼我這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8005.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8008.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
你們的調查報告會給示威人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8011.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8022.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那是審議以後吧,審議以後採月券,不會在調查的時候。那什麼行為人士當時沒看?不是,那是審議結果以後,不是在調查的時候。調查結果,調查結果,調查結果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8041.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8052.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
因為你知道為什麼家長這麼在意這個東西因為他們後來 當然我覺得這不是很好說然後透過預言拿到 裡面寫的 你訪談我的內容都不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8061.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8078.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那為什麼 比如你要我看過嘛比如我寫 我講的我又亂寫 我要看過可是你知道 那是因為 我知道我們整個論定結果不成立之後後來它是透過這個拿到來叫做連來調查報告跟我講來一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8094.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8102.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
兩照當死人的照片看如果可以拿來看國平的現在的情況進行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8108.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8130.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
教育局都不理睬你如果不相信的話我告訴你地方政府也是不可以給他看結果我看到事實跟我講的話完全不可以看剛才那個債券要拿掉那個資本救命是不是洗兩天對 我就要講那個債券那個債券要拿掉因為債券的話就外資 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8132.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8139.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那個債就是要18加8所以你要內涵的話那個債字要拿掉你要拿掉否則會像外加的而不是內涵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8156.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8166.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
你自己看一下你要拿掉那個字啊沒有的話你要把那個再字拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8178.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8197.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那你要立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8206.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8217.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
兒童基本救命術再訓練是4小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8235.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8253.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
對…那個是4小時第一次是8小時我們有renew code第一次是8小時過過之後再renew |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8277.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8278.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8295.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8295.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8373.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8376.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8412.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8419.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
原來他想要的是要查報告可以去看可是我定在這個地方就怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8437.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8440.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
可是自從我實驗的這個回覆已經不是一個確定的結果了 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8490.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8493.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
中間的過程就開始在這裡 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8513.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8525.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
來 我們繼續開會對 我知道來 我們剛剛處理到第52條嘛那請行政機關再針對52條的文字再確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8536.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8558.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
52條的部分的話我們再檢視了一下那基本上結構不變但是這個剛才我們的我們法治的部分大概有給我們有一個小的建議希望在文字上能夠寫到比較完整主要在第三項的部分就是直轄市縣市主管機關應自行或委託相關機關購團體專業學者每季至少辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8565.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8570.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
前向相關訓練因為這樣才會跟相關的條文連在一起需要加兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8574.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8598.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
然後第四項在授權事項的部分那個也回應剛才月勤委員所提到的就是有關這些事故傷害預防處理的部分我們覺得文字把它納到授權事項裡面去所以會在現在的第三條文的第二行螢幕上投影的第二行第四項第二行最後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8603.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8630.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
基本救命術訓練的後面增列事故傷害預防及處理頓號這樣的話這個訓練的內容就可以跟前面的部分都搭在一起再加幾個字以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8633.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8662.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
來 各位委員針對文字的修正有沒有其他意見好 如果沒有話那我們就我剛剛講說補充一下就是說那個兩年八小時的救命數是內涵請在那個立法說明欄裡面講清楚一下沒有問題我們配合修說明欄內好那我們針對52條條文就依照行政院的提案委員您所問的提案來修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8664.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8687.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好繼續審查保留條文第55條第55條這個先前在審議的時候那主要是針對這個有服務上面有爭議的部分來要進行做相關的調處那我們在這一次也爭這個依照各委員相關的提案的內容我們重新去做一個釐清跟整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8688.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8714.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那主要的内容是第一个是所有这一类的事件我们统一把名称通通修正为叫做照顾的争议那这样的话可以让适用的范围到最宽那只要是有争议的时候通通都可以调除调除的结果不成立的话也可以再跟主管机关来做申请再次的调除那 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8716.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8732.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
如果是对于儿童在第二项的部分只是针对如果针对这一类照顾争议造成对儿童有损害他的权益的话也可以来声明异议声明异议的时候如果在次日内 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8736 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8754.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
如果跟主要的意義是可以跟這個托育機構來先做意義對於意義的結果如果不認同那也可以進入到調處的程序讓托育機構在進入調處之前能夠讓家長跟機構端能夠先有一次協調的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8755.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8778.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那第三項的話就是相關配套的文字的處理那我們也增訂了最後一項那直轄市縣市署管機關在這樣一個調查處理過程中發現有這一類我如果說在處理調查或者是調處過程中有發現違反事項的話那都可以去依照依法去做相關的這個違法事件的處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8780.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8805.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
可以让我们再看一下吗你从那个修正前面开始照顾争议不成立申请再次调除照顾争议好我们现在就是说这个照顾争议还是不知道它是什么就是它不是不当对待也不是消费争议那还有什么是照顾争议这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8806.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8829.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
跟委員報告這類的爭議我們現在之所以改用這樣的爭議的文字我們就是希望把一個這個在能夠處理的範圍稍微把它做一些擴大那只要不是如果原則上家長或者是照顧者在第一時間的時候我們並不會要求家長去認定這到底違法不違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8830.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8846.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那他都可以來申請做一個調處那大到他覺得小朋友是不是在機構裡面受到不當的對待那或者輕到可能只是小朋友今天帶到機構裡面可能是玩具被其他人拿走那或者是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8848.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8873.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
这个老师在处理的时候是不是或者甚至被蚊子咬等等这种比较轻微的单纯轻微的事项那都可以那到这个是不是有争议的部分都可以进到程序里面来当然大到如果可能像收费不当对待也都可以那所以我们才会增列最后一项是说如果涉及到有违规的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8874.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8894.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那主管機關還是本於全責就違規的部分要去納進來處理那就是這個調處的部分讓機構能夠有第一個是家長可以直接跟主管機關來申請調處那第二項是家長如果在第一時間有的其實跟機構如果互信良好 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8895.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8924.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那就可以先跟機構來做一次協調的動作那在這邊我們把這個協調的名稱把它叫做異議就做這樣的處理那對於異議的結果如果大家就覺得不滿意那當然還是可以到主管機關進入調處我們大概把這個整個結構就做這樣的一個調整以上說明好 各位沒有意見吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8925.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8952.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
還有其他意見來 請王一鳴委員 王一鳴委員再換林書文委員這邊因為原來委員提的那個版本都是講審計兒童的權益那你現在是把它直接都改成是照顧爭議那原來委員的版本都是他一樣是走一個審議的程序你現在是叫調處那所謂的調處就是由行政機關就是自行受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8952.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8981.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
然後你的調處是什麼這部分可不可以再因為感覺那個整個處理的方式其實差異蠻大的原來民間版本大家提出來的就是說前面是違法那這邊是損及權益那他一樣是走一個流程但是你現在把它變成是行政化就是說這樣的一個爭議你就是直接就是用調處的方式那你那個的為什麼是轉變成這樣子那個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8984.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9001.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
為什麼是做這樣的調整可不可以再講清楚一點因為照顧爭議調處那調處這個是回到你的整個行政的處理的辦法嗎因為這個以下也都沒有做任何的相關的規範這部分可能請署長再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9002.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9026.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
跟委員報告 這個如果說我們最後處理看到那個行為的樣態他就是一個例如說違規 例如說收費違反規定或者是有不當的對待那職權上他就應該主管機關有職權要來做相關的甚至後面調查甚至要處分那如果是在這個沒有到這種程度的時候那他的樣態可能就會非常多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9026.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9054.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那我們現在就這樣55條修正的目的我們是想說讓因為這條發動者大概都在家長端或者照顧者端我們覺得不用讓這些家長端去負那麼沉重的說我要去區分他到底違法還是不違法所以他都可以第一時間他都可以找主管機關來申請或者是他覺得在事情的也許比較輕微比較單純的事項他就可以照第二項的規定直接找托育機構來做一個協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9057.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9080.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那協調不成或者他直接找到主管機關主管機關就可以來做一個這樣調處的動作那他的定位基本上也是偏向於一個等於是協助家長和機構端能夠去把這樣爭議的部分做一個解決一個比較接近類似協調的機制那只是在這個協調過程如果發現了他是違法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9080.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9093.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
主管機關還是要基於主管機關的權責拿去做相關的處罰或者懲處或者是調查那只是做這樣就整個結構我們是做這樣的一個設計那跟委員做這樣說明來 林書文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9101.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9127.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
因為在法律架構上我們本來是說只要疑似不當對待就要走通報了但是署長這個講法是說家長你不可能他是在這個不當對待的前階段也可以走這一條路或者是灰色地帶也可以走這條路我聽起來像是這樣子但我比較擔心的就是說因為疑似不當對待就要走通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9131.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9151.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個機構或者是中心就要通報了你現在叫他們會不會避重就輕走完這條路反而就是案子就被戳掉了戳掉了公委報告我們其實是多提供家長一個管道不是就是說我們允不允許在前階段就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9153.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9172.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
認定之前或是家長不一定有意識那就找走這一個調處調處就把真正的不當對待給戳掉了我是擔心這樣會不會所以跟委員報告所以我們在這個條文我們的最後一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9174.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9201.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們加了一個文字就是如果他發現在調查過程中知道有這些違反規定的時候這就是可以主管機關義務主管機關就是要把這個過程就是涉及到違法的情況來處理在這個過程裡面他可能在調處還沒到那個主管機關去的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9203.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9211.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
他可能在拘托中心就申請調處了調處就成立了都沒有辦法到主管機關去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9214.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9240.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
就是對於文化資本比較弱勢的家長而言有沒有這種可能因為他的認知上比較沒那麼強那如果這個機構經常都有這樣的狀況然後每個個案都這樣子處理掉有沒有可能我是在想想像我的想像但是你講的說是不是有時候也是需要有這一條存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9245.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9256.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
公務員報告就是我們的想法就是不用讓家長覺得這件事情也許是一定是當作檢舉還是認為說一定是已經到違法的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9257.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9276.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
这个判断的这个工作不用放到家长的身上去所以我们额外提供一个管道只要家长觉得有疑虑这个判断的工作要交给谁所以到了主管机关来在调处的过程中主管机关的责任发现就应该要处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9277.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9297.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那當然如果家長覺得他一開始就覺得可能涉及到不當對待沒有沒有 你聽我說你不是交給主管機關你第一道防線是交給拘托中心喔拘托中心那拘托中心調處成功了就OK了但拘托中心這條的罰則是怎麼處罰因為你這裡只問責這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9302.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9320.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對 最後一項是說主管機關如果發現他有違反本法規定要應依本法規定處理不可以調除可是那也沒有罰則然後第一線是居托中心居托中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9321.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9349.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
也沒有刻以他通報的責任嘛那也沒有罰則嘛所以我講的意思是說案子可能都會在居托中心和主管機關那裡因為也沒有罰則大家都通通就直接就戳掉了就是有可能其實是涉及違反本法的事情然後因為有這一個允許他私底下調處然後就案子都戳掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9352.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9379.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
就是這一條應該要跟前面的16條而且你這個東西就是說像小孩身上有瘀青啊保姆說不清楚啊那家長擔心小孩被打那他可能就跟居托中心申訴那一般的話我們就可能會會有一些調查程序16條那這樣子要不要按照48條去通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9383.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9397.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
不是那他要調處他就可能也不知道是自己小孩自己搞的還是那個機構裡面的人搞的那那這樣子的話你把責任弄到居住中心居住中心的人要不要按照48條通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9400.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9421.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
居托中心會需要通報那居托中心在這一次兒托法的訂立的過程裡面我們就把他定位成他是等於是受主管機關的委託來行使相關的類似行使公權力的位道所以他的責任就會所以居托中心的角度會更高對待嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9425.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9440.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你這一條照顧爭議在法律裡面要不要明文寫要排除疑似不當對待你沒有排除的話因為你剛才署長講法好像是疑似不當對待的前 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9443.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9472.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
前階段不管有沒有這樣的疑問都可以這樣提出但你可能會包含到不當對待這個時候就是居托中心在第一時間如果懷疑他可能涉及到有不當對待的話居托中心當然就應該要通報了通報以後就要進行調查了那還要繼續調處嗎所以這個時候就不需要再但是中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9473.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9480.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
不是如果你有通報的狀況是不是就要暫停調處因為我們要講清楚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9483.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9510.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
應該是說你這一條是不是明顯直指涉及不法的就是有其他照顧上面的爭議的那這一類我剛剛問的就是說那就是由行政主管機關你們會先進行調處但是一旦涉及到違法事項你講的理論我們都知道但實務面不是實務面有可能是說他是不當對待到疑似而已那家長不清楚可以申請調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9512.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9540.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那调处就可以戳掉了但是就是说如果我们去通报的话就不能继续调处因为如果去通报的话是不是就要调查这个时候居托中心判断会如果涉及到不当对待那么居托中心当然就应该要通报到主管如果他不通报呢那这个时候他们就调处完成了呢这个时候居托就是会有就会被处罚人家就调处完成了呢还是 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9543.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9570.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
今天能够在调处的部分不可能会涉及到行政机关的裁罚权限可以调处那么争议在做协助双家长和居家托育人员的调处的部分主要还是会聚焦在除了行政上面有违法以外的部分那只是这个通道给 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9571.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9599.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
給家長更方便的我知道你講的是理論上但我的意思是說你在這一條條文上設計上通報跟調除這兩個是不是要互斥如果你通報了還要繼續調除嗎通報就是要調查不當對待了那還要繼續調除嗎要不要互斥或者說你這個照顧爭議要不要明定要排除疑似不當對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9602.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9614.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我擔心的意思是說其實很容易就是觸法行為然後在調處過在調處過程就戳掉了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9621.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9636.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
因為署長的講法的確好像是允許報委員這個是兩個事件第一個就是說我們現在我們現在這裡沒有規定我們托育人員或托育機構他有很多他要做的依法要做的義務他在依違反的所以行政機關去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9637.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9651.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你講的沒錯但是我的意思是說因為你有照顧爭議可以調處所以他還可以用這個來免責自己啊不會不會那個免責一定不會免責所以如果你照顧爭議可以讓他們免責了所以我們叫照顧爭議裡面要明 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9652.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9674.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
有這個調處的功能要明定啊我們在這裡立法要明定要排除一事不當這個對待啊是不是然後我們是不是要明定在這個我們是要在照顧爭議調處這個機制裡面要定清楚然後免得他們去免責了自己的應該的盡的法律的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9678.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9688.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
就是說有兒童身心虐待體罰霸凌性騷擾不當管教及其他對兒童身心暴力或不當對待的行為這種疑似案件不得調處要不要明定上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9689.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9710.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我跟委員報告如果是擔心這個部分我們建議是不是在我們現在提出來建議的文字的最後一項因為原來是寫說直轄市縣市主管機關對於調查過程那這個部分我們是不是把居托中心也納進來就是直轄市縣市主管機關及 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9713.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9739.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
居家托育服務中心這個在在處理 知悉居家托育人員或托育機構有涉及違反本法規定者應依本法規定通報或處理那這個時候就是在這一條等於是在這個爭議處理的這個過程裡面那這一條有處分的機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9741.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9770.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
他如果是違反這一項有處罰的機制嗎這邊如果是提示了他要去通報因為前面已經有居家托育人員就有違反知悉有違反就有通報義務在前面就已經有條文了這邊等於是有一個更明顯的提醒的機制他會違反到前面的通報的義務所以他是可以處罰這裡是克責他要通報那他沒有通報在前面的條文就已經有處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9773.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9795.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
來 王振興委員是 謝謝主席 我想這個照顧正義這四個字的確有像林書偉所提到的 我會認同林委員的看法就是照顧正義本來就是兩端嘛有的可能是家長 那另外可能是另外一端照顧者認為這個照顧正義本身跟他沒有直接關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9796.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9811.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以除了這樣的加強以外那在立法說明能不能把照顧正義相關的這個可能的問題也在裡面多所琢磨讓大家未來對這個照顧正義本身帶來的影響是可以充分認知的以上來請林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9819.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9846.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我就請威福不是要講清楚那個照顧爭議過去照顧爭議我認為我孩子事實上是在你這受傷那然後那到底是事故傷害還是事實上我任力而略如果你又說不當對待已經拿掉那到底這照顧爭議是什麼所以我不知道如果沒有講清楚的話會不會跟前面這些我們前面要處理的這些東西又混雜在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9847.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9871.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個照顧真的事實上如果定義是傷害以外的契約像消費啊玩具這些相關照顧的問題那我們就可以同意可是如果不是的話那我就會跟前面要去處理當對待的時候混雜在一起的話又會亂掉所以可不可以清楚的做說明以上謝謝來先請黃修翁委員之後再請林淑文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9875.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9889.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
謝謝因為照顧爭議這個詞在之前都沒有有時候我們寫下去之後在地方政府可能縣市政府他們的認定又不太一樣所以我希望就是說照顧爭議是不是能夠寫清楚謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9892.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9908.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
最後我就想說第三項最後因應本法通報或處理還要再加上一句話應該是講說不得進行調處因應本法規定通報處理然後逗點不得進行調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9913.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9925.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
對有違反本法了就不能調處這樣子要規定的清清楚楚的讓這一些要進行調處的居托服務中心的人或者是地方主管機關知道這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9931.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9960.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
跟各位委員報告各位委員所提示的部分照顧爭議的這個概念確實是因為在這次審議過程中我們就草案的內容做一些調整未來立法通過我們會來跟地方政府就能夠調處的架構跟處理的方式來做一個相關的不管是協調或者是訓練或者是說明這個部分我們都會積極的來做相關的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9961.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9985.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
但是在處理的流程的裡面我們會跟最後一項的文字的部分因為配合要考慮到就是它就是只要知悉到有違規的狀況就要依法去處理的話我們會建議第三項的文字可能最後 對不起最後一項的文字可能要稍微著作一點處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9986.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10002.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
等一下我們統統把它修改好可能再投影出來請各位委員指正那至於最後一項是不是要提到就是只要依法處理就不能夠調處的部分我們是會建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10003.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10018.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
因為這個如果真的是列進去我們也會遵照不過但是有一些比較輕微的不當對待它本來就是這個後面如果要去走民事或者是所謂告訴乃論罪的話這個縱使不走條處 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10022.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10043.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
它其實還是可以不妨礙民事或者是形式上訴訟外的做和解的動作所以這邊我們去寫其實是沒有問題不過家長如果本身是家長有意願其實這個可能性還是有有這樣的可能是不是一定要排除我們是覺得要不要在法律的部分保留這樣的機會給 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10046.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10058.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
把這樣的可能性因為它的可能會非常的多元那是不是一定要立刻就排除掉那我們是建議也許可以再審酌看看這個大概以上的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10063.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10086.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
請說明來請回應我也順便再問一下就是說輕微的不當對待不是要回到條文裡面的調查變成怎麼署長一講就變成說給家長機會讓他們可以調處跟委員報告就是主管機關在行政上不管怎麼調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10087.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10106.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
家長都可能會有相關的民刑事請求或者訴訟上的權利那我們今天只要把這個不得調處一寫進去那他就只能去走訴訟他可能要去走鄉鎮事調解可能去走訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10107.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10131.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那我们要不要因为其实我们这边不写要不要一次就把它全部都断掉我们只是考虑这一点而已这个停下来主管机关的权利一定都还是要去处理他的民事权利刑事权利都还在因为人家司法机构也有调处的机制并不是没有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10132.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10154.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
現在我的疑問是說不當對待還可以走條處不當對待已經違反本法你還允許他走條處我的意思是說那你們不是在擴大這個爭議的範圍嗎你們會把這個所有的這個法就都可以那什麼叫輕微的不當的對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10155.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10176.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
甚至中重度的不當對待也可以被認定為輕微然後就走條處了這個法律就架空了這個法律還要存在嗎所以你這樣是橫生更多的爭議目前幼照法的做法是輕微的不當對待也是直接的派員去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10178.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10197.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你们现在是说都不要调查了家长也说我亲属属性啊不要乱说我们大家合格后就好了合格合格我们儿童法要做什么大家也合格因为第四项的存在主管机关不管家长怎么谈主管机关都要依法处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10199.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10219.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
依法這裡就允許依你的法你這一條就允許調處了還依法處理如果你這一條存在連不當對待都可以調處和解了那他也是依法處理啊所以你這一條如果這樣子你照你這樣子講整部法律都垮掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10223.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10248.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
不是嗎 保證你自己想看這螺絲 我主管機關我都依法但是我依的是兒托法的第55條可以照顧爭議 可以調處那我們允許不當的對待也可以調處所以人家都戳掉和解掉了那我們前面訂那麼多條文 訂得那麼仔細要幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10249.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10255.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這句話你說出來你連不當對待都可以調處所以我們一開始就講照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10258.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10279.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個所謂的照顧爭議要不要先排除不當對待消費爭議也要排除因為你們自己說你們有定型化契約可以規範你這個照顧爭議首先我們一直問你什麼叫照顧爭議你要排除不當對待排除消費爭議所以我們也問你說那排除這兩個有可能的照顧爭議是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10281.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10293.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
你現在又告訴我 微型的輕微的不當對待可以走調處輕微的不當對待可以走調處這樣走回頭路 連幼照法都不敢這麼說那個 要不要請調處跟調查絕對是互斥的你講話不讓人家查 你也給人家講一下好不好 你不要這麼激動那個參事要不要簡單說明一下 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10311.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10338.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
因為林委員講的我清楚啦就是說不當對待的不理會什麼情味的跟痛的嘛你要給我這樣調處好像我們法律讓這樣的修訂還餘有那個空間是不對啦那照署長講的他應該是有一個先後處理的機制在那個地方但是一個是要直接就把它否決掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10338.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10363.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
只要有不當對待沒有什麼叫輕微不輕微的還是輕重反正就直接直接調取就不能用就對了這樣的情況請說明一下是跟主席跟委員報告因為這一條一開始我們這樣陪著這個法案一直過來好像一開始也不是這樣的設計但是因為好像在討論的過程中有委員有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10364.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10387.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
有一點那個定義不是那麼清楚因為我們這個馬案主要是怕很嚴重的情況這個要處理可是卻沒有處理那可是我們也就是怕小案怕大案被小辦但是我們這一條出來這個照顧爭議就是希望如果也可能也會有一種一些狀況是小案 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10388.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10415.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個大半那如果是這樣的話有一個平衡的機制才會有這個55條照顧爭議的情形定下來那因為也的確是有淑芬委員剛剛講的可能性有可能有可能就是很嚴重的狀況會被調處給戳掉因為調處本身是這個第三方協助雙方當事人用非送的方式來協商解決而且他主要是要協調和解為核心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10417.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10435.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那這個部分的這個法律效果其實就比較像是民事在解決要達成和解方案的一個機制那如果說因為我們前面的46 47的判斷就是會有一個先如果有爭議的話會先到 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10438.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10450.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
縣市政府那邊會先做一個處理然後那個其實還不到受理的階段如果是小案的情形他就會在兩日內可能就可以做一個什麼簽結是不是應該是這樣的設計然後如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10452.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10471.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
兩日後決定要受理他就會派直接派員或者有一個調查小組來處理那這樣的話是不是可以在那個過程中處理這個可能要再討論一下但是基本上這個條文當初是怕很多的那種就是應該是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10475.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10495.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
爭議但是其實是小小的細微的那那種太多案件卻沒有一個機制處理所以才會有55條那要怎麼解決要不要把它分開這個可能還需要再討論一下因為這個也是我們最近才看到的這個條文所以我們也尊重那個委員的審議結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10500.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10503.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 我第一件聽你說的題目是什麼來 請你委員我再說一下 我跟你說兒童的權益絕對不是讓雙方大人去戳掉的如果我是機構的負責人不當的對待如果可以調處我就給錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10519.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10521.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
要不然整個機構都要被關掉了要停託啦所以呢這個什麼叫輕重什麼叫大案什麼叫小案誰決定誰說了算在哪裡說所以我一直在講說調處的範圍要有限制調處跟調查怎麼可能會並存呢當你要調查他的輕重 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10542.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10566.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
大小的時候你還允許他去調處那審議的結果如果屬於輕微的話調查完然後審議結果如果變成輕微那也是處分啊那如果這樣整個機制也可以廢掉幹嘛如果審議結果是輕微的話那當初為什麼要處分人家因為當初就應該走調處啦給人家賠錢了事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10570.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10584.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
所以我意思是說你知識體大沒有講清楚你範圍沒有界定清楚整部法律都被架空了整部法在這裡審這麼久都沒好啊這樣都叫認真討論誰嘛來 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10601.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10613.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這個我們討論還是應該要慎重的處理所以是不是因依本法規定通報或處理並因停止調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10616.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10639.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
就是不進行調處嘛因為這個一定是先受理調處才有調查嘛他前面的過程是這個調查是指說調處過程得為必要是調查嘛所以等於是為了要做調處進行調查結果調查的過程之西有違反本法的規定的那他就要轉成這個本法的規定處理所以要停止調處啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10641.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10662.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
只是我在想的是說因為這個裡面有兩個叫做再次調處所以如果前面的調處已經有成立的因為這個如果有不符就可以申請再次調處那如果是這樣那如果前面調處已經成立的是不是應該要視為不成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10664.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10691.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
他才能夠進行後面的程序還沒有做成調組結果就停止調組對 所以這個保留讓他們稍微去想怎麼樣的協法才是比較完善的如果是第一次調組結果應該也不成立的問題他們有時候是條件談不攏或者是那個只要沒有涉及不當對待的都可以繼續繼續去調處但如果凡是涉及到不當對待的應該就要調查就不應該繼續調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10694.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10718.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那所以是不是用這樣的文字大家看一下就停止調處我想是不是不要這麼急著決定你剛剛講的前面的那一些要不要再想一下就前面再調處再往上再調處這個東西也是可以在你們去想有沒有有可能程序上會進行上會有什麼問題方向上我覺得原則上是這樣子沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10720.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10731.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
如果有違反本法的話就不要繼續再調除但是那個整個整部條整條55條到底這樣寫有沒有需要再修正的讓你們稍微想一下啦主席先保留我知道啦我們這項一定是保留啦但是我還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10742.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10764.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我對剛剛這個參事的說明有一點不太清楚是這樣如果不當對待不分什麼輕重反正就是有涉及到刑責基本上是這樣那調處不能把調處這樣的字眼變成形容為戳掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10765.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10777.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我覺得這個 可能大家要講清楚那而後 只要講到調除就好像 不管你是換什麼案就是要去抽掉我不會說完的我不會說完的不是啦 我不會扣帽子啊我如果給你扣帽子 你剛才怎麼說啊我講的是不當對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10780.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10787.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
不當對待的條署才是脫掉因為你就抹黑扣我帽子啊因為只有不當對待的條署不當對待的條署才是脫掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10797.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10814.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
誰講的 涉及不當對待的條署那我就是講涉及不當對待的條署我對這個法條 我有意見我要表達 不可以嗎你不能聽我講完嗎你不能聽我講完嗎那你現在是講話的時候你現在是講話的時候你現在是講話的時候你每次講 我就是跟你插話 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10818.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10828.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
沒關係 但你不能夠抹黑我我就不能夠忍受你抹黑我吧我們講的是涉及不當對待的條署就是戳掉同事間 連一個基本尊重都做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10837.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10853.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
自以為很會修法莫名其妙不要抹黑人家才是尊重啊不是抹黑人家才是尊重啊尊重就不要抹黑人家啦你知道人家在講什麼還要抹黑你要講什麼東西啊你要講什麼東西審查法案大家理性討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10864.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10888.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我是剛剛有聽到有人用這樣的字眼去形容我覺得不太恰當我有講你嗎我有在講你嗎然後你講的我還覺得說你講的是有其道理因為你擔心那個不當對待你還要進行調處是不是要直接排除掉在這個講話之前我還講這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10890.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10906.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你上次給我插什麼話 誰在抹黑你你要自己對他入座 那是你的事情那我只是說請行政單位再好好思考你們整個法條的先後的順序甚至以是不是可以在說明欄裡面做比較強化的補充哪有主席在說這個事情你自己跳進來說人家給你抹黑 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10927.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10948.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
戳掉就是你講的 那就是你有講啊那我講這有什麼錯對 你要把調處直接講說 叫做戳掉你前面有一個不當的對待那我只是說在法律用詞上調處不叫做戳掉我的意思是這個樣子 我講這樣什麼叫做對你抹黑什麼叫對你抹黑不當對待的調處就是戳掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10954.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10959.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
而且署長就是承認輕微的不當對待可以調處署長就是這樣講他當時就是這樣講署長這麼講我也沒有認同署長這樣講就是戳掉嘛我是請行政機關在法條上的針對調處這兩個字眼法律的定義要非常清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10986.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11008.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好 繼續審查保留條項第56條行政院碼第56條是針對主管機關在相關業務執行跟調查或者處理期間有需要和各包括警政戶政財政教育相關機關去調閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11010.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11029.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
要請求協助然後跟調閱資料的時候那需要來調相關的資料那先前審查的時候主要是考慮到說財政的部分是不是有相關的需求那我們是考慮到說未來這個因為這個托育的部分其實還是會有政府的 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11030.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11051.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
不排除政府在這個對於幼兒的照顧的部分可能會有一些相關額外的協助等等在資料的蒐集上面可能還是會有相關的需要所以我們會建議是不是第56條的部分當時在考慮主要是財政的部分我們建議這個部分的文字可以保留也就是能夠依照行政院版的條文來做一個審查以上請你出言 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11057.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11072.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
抱歉我看錯了我不是56條我是下一條抱歉來其他委員有沒有其他意見56條如果沒有其他意見56條我們就要行政院的版本來通過繼續審查保留條文是這個嗎陳培韻委員就審討領取公委員63條 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11089.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11097.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
繼續審查表流條文增揹委員是第61條 林署委員是第63條然後還有修正動議第7案 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11100.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11119.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
是 呃 請請進機關說明是 那 呃 針對呃 林淑雯委員陳培鈺委員的提案以及呃 昭緯的這個修正的動議那我們是 呃 覺得基本上是可以來做相關意見的參採怎麼樣讓呃 托育的居家托育的人員在托育的時候要去做一個專心托育的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11120.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11136.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以我們在這個專心托育的行為裡面我們也整理了綜合的各委員所列出來的內容我們綜合了四個態樣第一個是收託期間如果要兼任其他職務不可以去兼任其他職務第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11137.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11157.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
不可以使六歲以下或者需要特別看護的收託兒童那獨處或者是有不適當的人員來照顧那第三個托育時間內如果要托育不應該離開托育的處所除非是有緊急的一些除非有特別緊急的事件那第四個是有其他的這個在前面三款所沒有列舉到的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11158.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11174.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那這邊同時也增加規定的是如果說在有前面第三款的時候這個居家托育的人會離開托育場所的時候他必須要能夠去要通知居家托育服務中心來做一個協助安排受托兒童的照顧以上報告來 各位請表示意見前一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11191.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11209.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這樣子也可以啦 我本來我的意思是說本來本來精簡成居家托育人員如依前項第三款但書規定離開托育處所於離開托育處所前於離開托育處所前應通報這樣子也可以啊你們條款也可以好 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11213.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11234.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
主席可以講話嗎可以啊 因為請問 請說那個現在改的就是我不知道就是你的第三款什麼叫做緊急事件者不在此限如果沒有定義又讓人家擔心以後怎麼去認定所以可不可以請我們的社交組做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11236.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11265.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
就第三款緊急事件者不在此先這個緊急事件者前面有什麼定義嗎可以讓我們釐清嗎否則的話到時候認定上會認為他的外出沒有問題可是事實上因為沒專心在照顧小孩就孩子受傷或死亡因為過去常有這樣子的死亡你說我出去我個人出去聯合收偷那我個人出去說我家燈泡壞了我出去那我認不認定就孩子在家裡死掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11265.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11272.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
就那個緊急事件到底是什麼可不可以能夠是在哪邊可以做說明或是你們有沒有前面有清楚的定義以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11274.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11295.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個在我們現在沒有特別去目前是沒有特別去做這個所謂的緊急事件不過一般在社會的通念底下大概常見的幾種樣態大概都是屬於這個是屬於居家托育的人員他必須要趕快去離開而且要親自要去處理從這樣的一個概念下去衍生 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11296.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11320.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那一般最常遇到的通常是如果這個居托人員他同時有帶兩個小孩其中有一個有緊急要送醫的需求的時候這種大概是我們最常見到這樣的情形那第二種就是可能是這個居家托育人員他自己的家人突然發生非常重大的事故緊急不得不要他去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11322.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11342.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
例如說可能是家人有這個什麼例如可能類似車禍或者其他緊急意外的事故那他需要找人來幫忙做處理大概這個在我們實務上看到最多的是屬於偏重這一類的太陽那在解釋這個緊急事件的時候當然這個在認定上面他還是要有一定的正當性跟足夠的緊急性 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11343.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11351.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那原則上我們會是以他的緊急的程度是以當事人他必須 社會的觀念上他必須自己要去處理為這樣的原則來去認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11353.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11373.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那可不可以在立法說明還是要稍微去做一些比較清楚的概述就像剛才署長這樣講的不可以一點字都沒有寫否則的話每一個人你講通念是這樣可是我如果我個人認知或地方政府認知那就搞不好有很大的落差因為我們過去不是沒有看到這樣子的狀況就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11375.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11397.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
如果他小孩假設在學校認為是生病可是有沒有急到這個程度到要馬上如果他他如果到時候去接他的小孩假設這裡家裡的孩子死亡的話那你怎麼去認定這個優劣的那個狀態裡面所以我覺得還是要把他在那邊說明清楚以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11398.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11413.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
謝謝委員指正那個部分我們在文字的部分我們會在說明欄裡面做一個基本的一個要求這邊其實我們也為了避免這個會發生解釋上面可能有一些脫漏其實第二項目的也是希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11414.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11429.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個居家托育員如果離開的時候他還是要離開之前他一定要有一個相關的處理不是一走了之所以我們在第二項也有整理一些文字那希望能夠跟當他離開的時候能夠有一個配套以上那檢定書員 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11434.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11460.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這個其實好像文字上還是有一點點意思上我是想說是不是應該是加但書兩個字因為本來前一項所講的四款是講說都不可以離開前面那一項講的都不可以有下列行為但是有第三款的但書者 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11462.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11479.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
才可以嘛所以我在講說居家托育人員如依前項第三款但書的規定去離開應該這樣講法義上比較清楚啦所以應該是這樣想是不是居家托育人員如依前項第三款但書離開但書的規定離開托育處所前 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11486.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11504.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
應通知居托服務中心協助安排這個等等等等這樣子語意才是順的啦來 請問議員那個我覺得那個特別的這個緊急事件不在此限你把它放在第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11506.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11529.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
他應該放比較後面吧就是因為這一條主要是不得出現下列的行為啊所以你原來在第四款足以影響脫羽安全的這一些這個還是比較重要123應該都是去講他不得的行為你這種例外例外要去開放的為什麼要反而放在比較前面他應該放在比較後面吧你們當時的邏輯是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11535.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11553.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
你這一條其實主要是不得有下列行為你例外的應該是是令我的意思就是說你這個是要處理他不應該出現的情況那你的這個第三款是是要給他例外的原則不是嗎你插在這邊感覺快 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11555.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11576.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
兩位委員剛才所提問的部分那第一個是第二項的文字的部分我們可以來做一個處理那王委員所提示的部分我們當時只有把但書放在第三款就是因為第一個是第一款其實它這個在一般的概念上面兼職的部分我們不太可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11577.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11602.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
一般來說不太可能會發生所謂緊急事件要緊急事件可以去找人來協助啦因為基本上就不太應該去做兼職我們都比較希望居家托育人員專職那第二款的話是六歲以下去要特別看護人獨處那這一類的話其實本來就是這個如果他是會獨處那就是一定是緊急事件所以他就是會離開托育處所 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11603.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11625.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
就是他本來就不應該所以我們就擺在第三款就是他只有在緊急離開只有在緊急事件離開托育處所的時候他原則上不可以離開例外緊急事故可以離開但是離開的時候就到第二項他要請這個居家托育服務中心來做一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11627.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11644.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
對啊所以你還是不能讓孩子獨處啊你懂我意思嗎所以你這一個你寫在這邊你本來你是要呼應第二款但那個是沒有意義的因為第二款它是一個鐵律你就是不能讓孩子獨處你是說他可以離開那個場所但是你還是要其他另外的適當的大人去照顧他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11645.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11675.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以你你這個我是覺得那個邏輯上面怪怪的啦就是說最高的原則你就是不能讓六歲以下的孩子獨處嗎其實他發生緊急狀況還是不行他的前提是你下面自己提到了他要事先去找到人來照顧這個孩子他才可以離開他不是馬上說我的事情很緊急一個六歲以下他他兩歲的孩子就在現場獨留還是不行啊這個還是是最高原則不是嗎他不會打破這個鐵律啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11676.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11700.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那你下面再補充講的都是即使他個人發生緊急狀況你都應該要找到適當的人你才可以離開不是這樣子嗎你怎麼可能說我處理一個狀況然後讓一個兩歲的孩子自己就在家裡面所以你在你把托育時間離開托育宿舍緊急事件不再實現這個擺在第三款我覺得是沒有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11702.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11707.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
他即使再怎麼緊急他還是不能讓孩子一個人在家如果他說都是兩歲的可以嗎對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11711.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11739.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
他應該要他要在那個前言那邊寫不是啦這整條條文就是在講怕掛萬肉依就不可以怎樣不可以怎樣總而言之就是第一個要專職第二個不能獨留六歲以下不能獨留第三個就是因為我們一直在講實務面是說保母認為我沒有獨留家人都還在所以我出去逛街逛一逛反正我兒子我女兒幫我照顧他我們也不允許 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11739.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11759.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那其實還有很多種狀況那我們怕掛萬肉衣所以才有第四款所有的法律的最後一款就是怕掛萬肉衣怕舉不完有extra的什麼什麼狀況一大堆這樣子所以才有其他足以影響這個托育服務自損兒童安全的行為是這樣子啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11761.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11776.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個並不是說哪一個比較重要放在前面的問題而是不可以那不可以1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8總是還會有多出來的所以我們就怕掛萬肉依所以才把第四款變成其他的放在這個第四款就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11786.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11813.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
托育時間內都不能離開他沒有毒瘤他還是有其他人留著照顧小孩他先生 他孩子但是我們不允許這樣子可是第三款我覺得主要也還是要去解決就是如果有個孩子受傷保姆送孩子去的時候我是主要照顧者那我帶著孩子去緊急就醫那當然還有一定會有人照顧因為第二款已經受限制一定要有人照顧所以我覺得第三款我認為是要去解決那個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11814.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11829.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
就是要解決所以我們第二項才放一個說你也不可以丟小孩在家你一定要通報這個居托中心派人來所以我們允許他有但書緊急狀況可以但是還是要派人來是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11836.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11863.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
欸那個抱歉我有提那個修正東營看一下因為我還是覺得你們把那個彈流緊急事件者不在此限放在法條裡面是很奇怪一件事情如果要放那是不是要有相關的一些一些辦法中文局問你要定出辦法出來不然這也很奇怪我有修正東營第七案 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11864.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11865.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
你要把它放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11894.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11918.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
一個SOP還是什麼樣的辦法去定制不然你直接寫這樣我知道了不一定要照我的修正動議老師現在提醒說你們把這個如果有緊急事件不在此限 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11926.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11948.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你那個例外的,應該是例外在這邊,不得的列一齊,然後例外的例外在這邊,直接寫到後面你知道,猜書啦,沒有寫歷史的寫法,就沒有辦法寫,因為現在這個已經在發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11950.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11967.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你第一項已經戴發折了但是他沒有緊急事件的時候變成我如果採訪後面去的我發折了第二項本來是沒有戴發折的對啊你第二項沒有戴發折 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11969.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11998.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
有啊 第二項你也有法則嘛第二項也有法則啊第二項應該有法則 他說他沒有通知 協助有啦 都有啦有啦 一定有的啦第二項沒有 對啊所以我如果把那個打開的話就會第二項要有法則啊他是緊急事件離開 但是他沒有通知安排那個 那也是要罰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12002.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12011.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
還是這條要保留還是怎樣我這邊建議若有緊急事件須離開脫衣處所者則應主管機關所定製辦法為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12015.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12041.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
你都沒有跟自己說政治事件要先去定義你自己定一個辦法出來嘛可以吧跟召委報告我們建議是不是朝這個方向去修因為這個如同剛才王委員所提示的這個不可以離開托育儲物所應該是也是一個基本的原則啦所以我們是不是可以朝這個方向我們再去做一個文字的整理就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12043.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12065.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這個序文的第一項序文就是應該在托育時間在托育處所專心托育不得有下列行為然後現我們現在修正的建議的文字第一款跟第二款都先維持那第三款的部分我們就先把它拿掉那改到第二項裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12068.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12083.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
居家人員因緊急事件要離開托育服務處所前應該通知居家托育服務中心協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12085.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12111.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
受託兒童之照顧事宜那他就因為緊急的事件那我們就可以在第一個在說明欄的裡面把這個緊急事件的處理的部分大概一個觀念的定義我們就放在條文的說明欄裡面我們大概朝這樣的方式去做一個整理如果可以的話我們就趕快來做文字的調整以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12115.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12115.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12130.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12157.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
來 請連行員我覺得寫這個有沒有有一種狀況是因為你現在變成是說本來是說如果他找不到人照顧的話他必須要請居福中心來做協助可是現在變成說好像他一定因為是因通知通知而且要協助一定要協助可是我跟他的距離今天每一個行政區只有一個甚至我想雲林好像也只有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12158.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12172.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
居托中心還是兩個而已那服務員這麼廣大我怎麼可以到的了保母家除非他找不到人那比如說他帶到醫院的時候我趕快去醫院幫他帶小孩因為車程的關係還是要緊急救護如果我們等著 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12173.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12198.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那個來照顧的我才可以帶孩子去就醫或送救護車我覺得這有一點時間差的矛盾會存在如果要寫當然一定要通知可是講說他一定要去協助照顧小孩他才可以離開的話這會有疑慮因為我們是搶命比較重要其他的要維護其他孩子安全可是搶命是我們第一要務可能要去考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12203.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12218.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
可以先保留嗎 主席因為我覺得這還是有很多要討論因為我覺得事關孩子重大權益的都不應該倉促決定 以上剛剛就建議他們保留 他們就不會再說 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12222.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12237.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好 委員會跟各位徵詢一下因為因為我們下面全部要處理的是華者的部分要不要給行政機關再去做對照我們之前通過的相關的一些一些法條然後我們對 下午兩點我們再繼續開始好不好還是怎樣 還是跟各位還是要繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12252.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12262.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好 那我們這一條一樣保留然後過去下午兩點繼續來做審查 那請行政機關就針對這個華澤跟對照沒有通過的法條 應該做一些調整吧下午兩點我們繼續開會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
15915.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
15917.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
20767.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
20785.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
好 我們下午繼續開會現在開始審查法則保留條文字57條開始審查那有院版還有這個相關的詳細詳簡表給各位做參考是不是我們針對第57條 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
20795.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
20820.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
請行政單位先做說明是第57條的部分那這個有配合前面的審查的部分跟配合第36條有甄列居托中心的工作人員那我們在這個在57條的部分我們也配合文字做甄列那這個建議就是依照我們有建議的文字那現在在有投影請各位委員可以參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
20821.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
20844.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那罰則的部分的話那個處罰的程度的部分大概就都各委員的版本基本上都一樣那兩位委員看一下好不好第57條對螢幕上也有好 沒有意見喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
20849.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
20850.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
維穩第36條第一項6萬到60萬審訊虐待警戒重大可以嗎 林議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
20874.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
20888.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
可以喔 OK 好那 57 條我們依照行政院提案及委員署內提案修正通過繼續審查條文保留條文第 58 條然後修正動議是第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
20889.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
20890.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
請行政機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
20919.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
20946.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那其他的部分我們現在是沒有調整那在修正跟委員的版本差異的部分那主要是和林玉琴林委員的版本在這個處罰額度的金額的部分那我們是建議是不是有可能還是先維持這個照行政院版的平衡維持在六萬到三十萬的罰款以上好 國務院可是意見那請林玉琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
20948.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
20962.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我這邊同意 因為之前有先溝通過好那第58條我們就依照行政院提案修正通過繼續審查保留條文第60條請行政機關做說明第59條 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
20972.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
20999.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
第59條的部分那這個部分也是先前因為要配合這個11條44條45條50條的條文那當時是因為第50條是保留的那剛才在早上的時候第50條已經修正完成那主要在所以我們配合第50條我們建議文字有一個調整就是在第4款的最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21000.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21020.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我們會建議甄列幾個文字就是暫停托育服務這個早上在審查的時候因為有那個要配合是不是本來是規定是只要求有院版的條文只要求暫停新收那早上審查的時候是有配合要到暫停托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21021.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
21046.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那我們就配合這個文字的部分處理和做一個甄列那其他的部分大概就跟原版原來的文字相同那其他前面涉及的條文大概都已經審查通過以上好兩位委員有沒有其他意見沒有好那我們就第五十九條就是依照行政院提案來修正通過繼續審查條保留條文第六十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
21049.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
21064.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
而第60條因為涉及到第38條和39條目前的那個前面的條還在保留我們建議這條是不是暫時先保留 以上好 兩位有沒有其他意見先保留繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
21067.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
21097.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
保留條文第61條然後修正動議是第9案請行政機關做說明第61條的話是針對違反第30條所定的相關的包括了19條29條30條49條相關對應的罰則那其中現在主要是因為第30條現在還在保留狀態所以我們建議是不是這個第61條其實也暫時先保留先保留 各位沒見沒有 我們就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
21098.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
21098.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
繼續審查條文第62條 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
21111.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
21137.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
而第62條的部分那也是一樣有因為是涉及到違反第30條51條和54條的規定那因為第30條目前還是在保留我們建議是不是先維持保留以上第62條有沒有其他意見沒有第62條就先行保留我們繼續來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
21141.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
21170.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
保留條文第六十三條修正東醫師第十三案請行政機關做說明第六十三條的部分先前是因為有涉及到違反第十一條的部分的處罰那第十一條的部分早先前討論已經通過那我們配合審議已經通過的第十一條的文字我們在第六十三條的第二項我們有配合做一些增訂的文字也現在有現在先投影出來請各位可以一併參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
21171.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
21198.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
就是我們會甄列現在有甄列了紅字的部分或依第十一條第二項規定向主管機關申請暫停收拖登記期間提供居家服務者就是把那個行為的太樣配合第十一條第二項的文字我們做一個甄列以上那其他的部分就沒有做修正那我們請委員參考來 請問委員有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
21201.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
21206.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
你這個修正就是說停止收拖期間結果他還在違法收拖嘛對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
21210.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
21235.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那你們的我看一下我們有個修正就是說這一條要處理是這兩種狀況沒有托育人員資格也沒有登記或者是有托育人員資格沒有登記所以關鍵是他有沒有托育人員這個資格而不是居家托育人員資格所以第一項第二項的主詞應該是說不具托育專業人員資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
21239.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
21258.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
第二項應該也是具托業專業人員資格而不是居家兩個字托育專業重點應該是不具托育專業人員資格你的居家托育四個字應該是用托育專業字換掉吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
21265.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
21292.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我們跟委員報告我們之所以沒有再去調整把居家托育人員的這個文字調整托育專業人員那主要是因為居家托育人員他在提供服務的時候他資格的部分確實和機構托育人員現在的資格是一樣的但是在登記的時候那居家托育人員和在機構的登記的流程是分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
21293.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
21314.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
所以我們會建議這邊在文字上面的話是不是可以維持用居家托育人員效果還是會一樣這個是不會有問題但是因為這個在登記管理的在行政登記管理實務上的時候它最後都是用居家托育人員的這個方式去做登記和管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
21314.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
21329.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
跟機構的托育人員是分軌來做不同的登記所以我們會建議是不是文字可以還是使用居家托育人員這樣的文字 以上不是 居家托育人員資格是指他有登記嗎你們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
21332.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
21349.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
第二項 具居家投獄人員資格他後面就是為第二項的話就是沒有依照第11條去辦理登記所以他是有資格沒登記那第一項就是沒資格也沒登 章案也無從登記那都會要去處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
21351.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
21374.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
第一項是沒有資格也沒有登記第二項是有資格沒登記這個資格不就是所謂托育專業人員的資格嗎為什麼叫做居家托育人員資格是什麼意思我們的名詞是叫托育專業人員我們的名詞是叫做居家托育人員資格嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
21385.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
21397.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
具資格應該是具托育專業人員我們在名詞定義上不是都講托育專業人員資格我們這裡講的是這個名詞的統一 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
21418.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
21419.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
因為你們的居家貴人是只有荷花的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
21437.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
21459.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那請行政官說明就是居家托育人員資格是什麼意思這個因為主要是因為考慮到在先前的時候有參照這個委員版的條文已經在這個現在這個條文還沒有編條次但是位置在第44條之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
21460.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
21489.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
已經單獨有列一個條文就是居家托育人員及機構托育人員因成年並具備下列資格之一所以他的資格現在是兩種人員分開並列雖然內容是一樣但是他的條文現在是寫在一起所以我們會建議是說是不是有可能因為這個部分要再處理的時候而且未來在登記實務上的時候也是這樣子去分開來做登記是 是喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
21497.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
21498.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
政治內容不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
21505.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
21533.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我們43條就是在講最後一項就是講托育專業人員及居家托育服務中心工作人員的資格這相關事項給你們辦嘛所以我們講是托育專業人員居家托育人員及機構托育人員所以不包含主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
21534.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
21552.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
不包含主管是這個意思嗎是不包含主管居家的話不會有主管居家的話托育人員也不會有主管寫托育專業人員也是啊就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
21555.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
21568.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
托育專業人員照現在第二條的定義會包含到好啦我知道用行政院的建議版本啦否則用專業人員又涵蓋太多了反正這樣子不要聚焦啦好 有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
21578.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
21606.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
如果沒有我們第63條就依照另外跟主席還有各位委員報告一下這個我們剛才我們法治我們承擔是跟我們提醒了一下在文字的部分有一個地方似乎有罪制就是在第一項裡面他條文定義違反第11條第一項規定後面未辦理登記好像需要刪掉因為這類人沒有資格其實是無從登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
21607.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
21618.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以他一定就是未具資格提供服務所以未辦理登記這幾個字是需要刪除因為不具資格不具資格更不用登記第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
21620.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
21642.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以未辦理登記而六個字需要刪除對對對對這邊我想就教一下因為過往我知道到底怎麼採取如果保姆收五個以上你們是採取用托育機構托育中心採取那三個用保姆嗎我先釐清一下因為五個以上就是機構了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
21643.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
21662.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
因為她是在住家裡邊所以我想釐清一下這樣子才會很清楚我的地方真的採儲是依著這樣的採儲嗎因為已經是變機構機構的法則非常重那已經一個人帶了這麼多小孩她一個保母她事實上是可是她的空間沒有審核過她一定是居家 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
21663.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
21688.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
不管怎麼樣他還是帶了這麼多小孩已經是用托嬰中心的規模甚至我們過去還看到帶八個小孩的那你是用機構財主比較重一點怎麼一個人帶八個小孩照理講一個人帶四個可是他本來就是不合格的保姆又是不合格的場地然後也沒去登記所以你們是用什麼財主五以下我個人認為是要用保姆OK |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
21689.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
21701.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
因為那個裁罰比較低如果他在五個以上的話應該就是要因為他們有時候他們會聘人進來可是他就是用居家的規模可是不對啊你已經做成是機構啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
21702.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
21725.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
是 如同委員提示那他如果我們現在因為機構的分野就是用超五個人打五個人的時候他就是要做機構的立案所以不管是有沒有資格所以居家保姆我們現在規定也是只能收到四所以只要超過五就是用未立案機構處罰在哪一條有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
21729.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
21740.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
在剛才通過的59條特別去訓練是不是我們有把它分別出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
21745.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
21769.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
好那這樣我就很放心所以就是5以上就是用未立案機構5以下超過保姆可收容人數例如說一位保姆收到4個也許全天那就是用保姆超收好5以上是含苦還是沒有含可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
21771.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
21789.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
不好意思主席讓我問一個問題我想問一個就是說保姆有時候他小小的違規然後他乾脆停掉因為停掉海闊天空因為你們就不會再去來看我了反而我要怎麼操作我要怎麼樣都可以因為沒有後續追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
21790.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
21810.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那所以過往實務經驗會覺得說你停止我更好那我乾脆我自己就出來停歇業我不要再持續領你們的登記證然後因為後續地方政府都沒追蹤那這樣子的話除非他有一天就被抓到說他又是沒有登記的 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
21812.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
21826.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
他具有資格他沒有登記可是他一直在收託小孩因為他有一些違規的狀態後來被你們有逮到後來他就說那我乾脆也不要了反正我就停停辦停辦這個那停辦真的是更好耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
21827.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
21850.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以我不知道說這你們條文有沒有搭配是說如果停辦之後我大概就會抽查還是停辦之後反正他就跟我say bye bye然後呢他從此海闊天空政府也不會來干擾他他也不用接受一年四例房還是五例房還六例房更不需要反正他照樣收小孩因為他一直口碑很好帶的小孩很多可是常常 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
21852.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
21878.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
小錯呢不斷大錯呢可能沒犯可是有的大錯呢他操作很嚴重反正又抓不到他所以我不知道你們這個後端的有特別去做搭配的處理嗎跟委員報告目前我們現在有大概有幾個機制對於這樣的行為來做一些處理那第一個就是目前我們本來就有一個系統讓民眾來查詢這個保姆的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
21879.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
21898.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所以民眾只要有需要就可以在我們現在的那個網站上面資訊系統讓民眾去查詢他現在找到的是不是有經過登記的合格保姆這個部分服務是已經有提供的民眾可以來做查詢那第二個是因為現在有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
21899.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
21925.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
有托育補助的制度的設計所以如果說這個家庭裡面是有在領取托育補助的那托育補助的時候那這個家裡領托育補助他的小朋友是放在哪裡給哪一個是托育機構還是保姆來托育我們在系統上都是要登記勾結的所以這個部分在如果他是同時有托育補助的部分這邊我們是可以勾結得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
21926.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
21952.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那當然也不排除就是會有一些比較極端的狀況那這個部分我們會跟地方政府來做一個合作盡量的來加強這個相關沒有做登記的部分的查查以上好還有其他問題嗎那如果沒有我們六三條就依照行政院提案來修正通過繼續審查保留條文第六四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
21954.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
21977.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
請行政機關做說明第64條的條文主要原來是因為配合第36條有保留所以文字有當時是先沒有審那第36條主要是需要增列居家托育服務中心相關的文字那這個部分我們對於文字都已經整理完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
21978.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22002.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那而配合36條條整我們同時有稍微修幾個字就是因為36條的相次的關係有針列對受託兒童有第36條第一項鎖定的等等行為我們有把文字配合第36通過的文字做一個整理所以目前是大概前端行政作用的部分條文已經沒有保留的狀況公務員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22006.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22027.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
一點小小的問題而已 63條那邊可不可以把逗號刪掉 這樣子會比較完整不具居家托育人員資格逗號違反第11條第一項規定而提供把那個逗號跟未辦理登記都刪掉而不會有加逗號 有一點怪謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22040.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22045.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
可以啦 沒見到那個舊蚊子就是那個痘痘要再修掉了這請行政機關醫事組再修一下 等一下再再來處理我們針對64條 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22074.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22090.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
對 請說剛才有說明因為第36條後來有增訂第二項的文字所以我們在後面第一個是配合修正有增列一個變成36條第一項那就因為處罰的對象有增列到居家托育服務中心的工作人員所以我們文字也配合整理進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22092.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
22111.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
對 我要講就是說我們這個處罰分成兩種一種就是情節重大一個就是非屬情節重大但是因為幼照法的經驗他們在教保人員條例裡面就是因為沒有列入非情節重大和情節重大之外他們沒有列入情節輕微時的處理規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
22115.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
22132.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
我們情節輕微並不是說去調處而是還是要懲處但是這裡講的是要不要公佈姓名在幼照法裡面講的是導致一些個案實際上真的是情節輕微但是只有非屬情節重大案情節重大案兩種狀況所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
22134.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
22156.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
即便用非屬情節重大的狀況去處理還是公佈姓名所以大家也覺得說會不會過重就是因為借鏡到幼照法的經驗所以我們脫蒙裡面脫蒙主張就是說我們是不是考量到這個違法情節相對輕微則不是相對輕微則就是輕微則 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
22158.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
22169.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
他在法律面我們這部法裡面要求行為人要接受兒童輔導管教等相關課程其實他的處分勤解輕微他的處分就叫他去上課那不予裁處罰還這一種的沒有罰他錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
22176.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
22198.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
然後叫他去上課的這一種我們是不是在於這個違反第45條規定身心虐待以外的行為那經地方政府地方主管機關認為其情節輕微為以前項規定處罰者得依46條規定為必要的處置就是說就是得依這個第16條的規定去處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
22209.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
22233.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
其實也是為了要因為他情節輕微所以會鼓勵負責人和知悉托育相關人員對兒童有尚非情節重大的違法行為的時候因為他可能不會公佈然後只是上課然後沒有罰沒有罰還所以主動讓這些人其實第一線的人看到可以主動的通報主管機關這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
22235.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
22253.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
也主動通報然後因為你本來就情節輕微就上課和不罰錢所以在這種狀況我們是不是允許他可以採取第46條規定的這個必要處置就是托盟的版本我們的版本的第二項放上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
22257.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
22283.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
跟委員報告抱歉是院版的第37我們的46但是院版跟委員報告因為現在其實在院版的37這個已經通過了條文我們是針對這些情節輕微的比較輕微的部分它就是已經有一個處置的方式包括受相關的教育訓練或者其他相關的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
22285.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
22312.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我的意思是說對我們如果犯這一條的能不能就是說不公佈沒有沒有這個不會公佈沒有抱歉是違反第45條規定我們的版本是違反第45條規定身心虐待以外的行為經執行事先是主管機關任期勤解輕微為以前向規定處罰者得依46條規定為必要的處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
22314.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
22319.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
可以让他这个137条的规定处置而不是用这一条啦因为如果没有这样写的话就变成非情节重大和情节重大然后就是这样子但是如果违反第第45条的37还是45院版第 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
22342.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
22357.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
跟委員報告因為也許是院版和委員版本的那個結構稍微會定的結構稍微有一點點不一樣的地方所以如果依照從院版的角度結構的角度來看的話如果對應到委員版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
22357.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
22382.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
36和37抱歉我現在搞清楚36和37那對應到委員版的那個條文的話其實我們在設計上這類的個案其實它本來因為它不會被定位為64條所謂的有這個違反第36條的狀況所以它自然就不會有公佈姓名的問題所以這個部分的話應該最後的效果應該會跟委員版的這個效果應該會相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
22384.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
22390.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
違反第36條的罰則不是落在現在這一個64條嗎然後這裡不就只有非情節重大和情節重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
22399.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
22415.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
你们假如说如果到时候罚上课所以因为如果是在院版的话他的行为就是属于第37条再对应到院版的话就是委本到37条所以他后面的这个相关的处置那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
22418.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
22426.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
直接效果我們就寫在37條裡面就是他要去上課要去做相關的輔導我看一下37條37條來 請裡面請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
22432.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
22458.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
剛剛這邊講說非情節重大就不會去公佈該機構名稱幼少法還是會公佈只是時效會比較短因為它畢竟還是牽扯到體罰 霸凌 性騷不當管教即便行為輕可是我覺得家長還是有知識的權利他到底要不要送進去所以只是說他公佈的時間會比較短 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
22460.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22489.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
所以我不認為說不公佈耶因為他畢竟還是犯了這個問題啊所以可是你們這邊就說不公佈機構的名稱可是幼照法是公佈啊不予公佈該機構名稱啊負責人主動通報他還是有一些管理上的問題為什麼可以不通那個因為我覺得他還是四射管理上的所以幼照法還是公佈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22506.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22522.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
跟委員說明那我們那個第64條後面的但書當時候是為了希望負責人不要隱匿通報所以才會有這個但書規定那在這之前的文字都是要公佈行為人姓名跟所屬機構的名字名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22524.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22540.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那只是補充去說明說如果他是主動通報的話就不予公告該機構的名稱那以上說話再說回來本來你的專業人員本來每一個人就責任通報人為什麼還要說你獎勵獎勵他他本來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22540.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22564.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
一個責任通報人不是嗎不是獎勵是說怕他隱匿不通報可是他所有的老師在裡邊的人每一個人都要通報連負責人都是營造做這樣的工作的人他就應該要通報可能用這樣的理由說因為他通報那如果說我今天通報什麼東西我通報我自己打孩子的話那就我就不用受到任何罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22568.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22574.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以我覺得說如果比照幼照法它事實上是要公佈的只是說時間上比較短而已來 林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22580.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
22606.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我現在來回頭來看36條36條是講說這個托育相關人員不得對兒童有身心虐待體罰這些不當對待的行為嘛36條就只是講這樣子37條也講說你有犯36條的狀況的時候我要希望你這個接受這個教育或者課程或其他符合教育或輔導目的的措施就是說要處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
22607.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
22622.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
但是情節認定終身不得擔任托育人員的處分就不能適用這個那我們現在講的就是說如果犯有36條裡面的你64條是講說情節不重大的話要罰錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
22624.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
22651.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
然後要公布這個機構的名稱但是這個主管機關知悉前你就通報我就不公告你的名稱現在是這樣講那我的意思是說那你現在狀況整個處罰的機制就只有情節不重大然後就是罰錢然後公布然後情節重大當然處分得更嚴格啦但我的意思是說有一種情節輕微 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
22653.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
22673.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
然後甚至是不予裁處罰錢的然後你也要給他我們意思是說不要公佈名稱然後鼓勵負責人和這個相關人員通報這樣子否則他們一定就是盈利嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
22680.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
22694.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以現在就只有情節非重大和情節重大都沒有寫到情節輕微的啦我的意思是說我們是不是要在這個裡面再有一個就是情節輕微的我們就用這個37條處理就好了就不要再到64條 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
22714.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
22719.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
就是情節輕微我們認定就是說他可能被罰要上課但是沒有被罰錢那我們就用37條的上課的這樣就處理了否則的話通通都要跑情節輕微通通要跑到64條來情節輕微也是要跑到64條來 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
22743.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
22751.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
因為現在沒有定義說情節輕微就用原來的37條罰他上課就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
22769.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
22776.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
因為37條講的就是違反第36條然後要處以輔導管教上課這一些的其實你們認為只要上課的這種情況會是情節重大或非屬重大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
22791.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
22815.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
如果只是要罰他上課這就不是情節重大但是還有一種叫非屬情節重大就是因為幼照法裡面實際上發生的就是情節輕微但也不是就非屬情節重大更不是情節重大處分起來就覺得過重是因為幼照法有這一種問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
22825.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
22831.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
因為教育部在幼照法那邊就是認為說只是要他去上課的都是情節輕微的 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
22838.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
22862.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
跟委員報告其實在立法的策略上面大概原來的構想確實是我們認為如果他的違法違規情節是比較輕微那我們也確實也是傾向於不需要把他的這個行為去做公佈以上課等等的方式來處理所以我們當時的想法是說如果他是屬於他是可以依照用37條的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
22864.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
22888.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
他就去上課所以這個部分是不是在文字上面如果需要的話我們是不是有可能在第64條的文字稍微再去做一點處理把它和37條就是已經依照37條去上過課的這樣的一個概念在第64條裡面去把它加進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
22889.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
22911.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
有可能或者是到37條裡面去加或者是到64條不過因為37條先前已經討論通過啦所以可能在目前在64條這個部分直接就加條文的這個處罰的限制上面可能是比較可以那是不是容我們把文字做一點處理我們稍後再來跟委員再討論先保留好了ok好好64條保留那接下來66條 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
22920.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
22920.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
为父母请说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
22925.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
22952.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
65條在前一次會議就在先前審查已經有通過那第66條的部分因為它其中的罰則有涉及到一個是第16條還有一個是先前還有一個條文是在討論的時候會增列的一個條文就是剛才在罰則前最後一條那個專心托育的條文那那個條文現在這兩個條文都還在保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
22953.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
22957.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以我們建議66條是不是可以先行保留以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
22963.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
22983.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好 66條保留 那接下來去審67條 惟副武警說明好 67條的部分那主要先前保留的條文大概都已經審查通過了那但是我們在文字的部分有做一些配合前面審查的結果做些審理 那有 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
22984.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
22992.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
現在我們文字有投影在這個螢幕上那第一個是第一款的部分那要配合條次的整理從20條的19條20條第5項要修正成20條第6項 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
22999.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23021.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
第二个是第四款的部分36条因为有增列项次所以需要明定为36条第一项文字需要增列第三个是第46款有关违反第48条原来第二项也配合条次项次的调整需要修正为第三项 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23022.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23051.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
最后一个是我们在这条有增订一项文字那就是针对居家托育服务中心如果在受委托的时候有相关的情形包括他的人员没有做通报或者是在聘雇人员没有去做查询以及聘雇的异动没有报请主管机关备查这三种样态 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23051.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23070.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那因為先前並沒有列到相關罰則的處罰的規定我們在這邊我們也去把這個罰則的規定就甄列在本條所以甄列一個第二項那罰罰還的額度那也是跟第一項一樣維持在一萬元以上一萬五萬元以下以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23081.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23083.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我們的意見是這樣子的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23106.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23129.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
要新增第一項裡面第二款好不好就是說違反第18條第4項規定未經主管機關核准招收其他兒童的是不是能夠新增進去就是說我們這個原條文沒有處罰沒有經主管機關核准就自行招收其他幼兒的這個是不是放進去有嗎18條第4項 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23137.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23138.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
沒有放進去嗎好你看一下然後第二個呢就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23145.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23166.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
好像沒有放進去第二個就是說實務上曾經發生過地方政府承辦阻止居家多域服務中心的通報那在講說未來如果要發生也發生類似的事情那第二項規定要怎麼處理也要罰中心嗎所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23169.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
23188.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
也參照一下就建議參照教育部當時韓式的這個經驗規範如果中心已經擅近督導管理職責的話就不予處罰就是說在這個新增的裡面然後紅字的裡面的第一款第一款是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
23190.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
23200.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
第一款的通報的後面再加上但居家托育服務中心以善盡督導管理之責而不予處罰因為曾經發生過他們通報但是社會局的承辦阻止他們通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
23216.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
23241.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
這個放在這邊好像不太因為這邊講的是要處罰哪些情況下要處罰你現在又在講的是免處罰因為他已經實務上發生就是他有通報但人家叫他不要通報他就已經有督導有通報了但是是上面的縣市政府的承辦曾經阻止過 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
23242.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
23244.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
要不要再別調處理因為這調處理的話有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
23246.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
23271.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
就是說而且不能用那個字眼叫未三進那個督導責任上方等於事實上是社會局是他頂頭上司那他會變說我是下方我是一個督導又不是我督導員工我已經三進跟我督導員工講可是督導員工講話你還是有法定責任他事實上通報是法定責任這個實務上是說法定責任他通報但上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
23272.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
23295.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
不讓他通報他這個責任是誰因為這個是參採教育部的韓式的經驗要不要等我一下我找一下是不是教育部的韓式看能不能找出來給大家看一下就是他的規範就是如中心已經善盡督導管理之責然後也通報的話你應該是還要處罰他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
23302.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
23322.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
通報就不需要那個沒有完成因為上面的人不讓他繼續那個到最後那個案件沒有列案那他應該去通報社會局這個人社會局不讓他那個所以我在講你等我一下我叫他們找韓市出來一下看一下教育部因為教育部的有這個那個韓市 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
23330.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
23356.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那等淑芬委員再找我們就保留一下好了這個先說明一下剛才淑芬委員所提到的在第一項的第二款是不是要增列這個所謂叫做未經主管機關核准招收其他兒童那這個基本上是針對這個機關的這種機關互助式托育或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
23357.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
23374.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
因為他是對應到院版的條應該在第十應該在第十八條第四項那十八條第四項的話是有規範到這個政府去設立的托嬰中心有相關的這個招收的順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
23376.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
23386.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那這個部分的話如果有有違反這個順序的話是要不要去做是不是要去處罰這個機構啊那我們目前是並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
23389.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
23411.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那没有处分的话我们订这个18条第4项要干嘛因为这个部分因为他是属于政府机关自己本来自己就公立的设立所以通常而且通常这一类的话大概在招收的时候大概也都会是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
23412.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
23431.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
以这个像条文里面所列到的包括员工的被亲属需要协助或者是托婴中心自己的员工子女大概都几乎都是以这样的一个概念我的意思是说我们在法律里面明定了这个收托的优先顺序 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
23432.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
23459.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
对不对那如果你没有罚则那这个这一条18条这个收托的优先顺序定这个法优先顺序不好啊这个等于参考用的参考用的我们干嘛定那我们18条那个应该是也不用放进去的因为只是参考用的变成道德劝说的 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
23461.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
23488.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
因為他事實上那時候我先把我們自己的這個員工的全部都招滿了或者是長官的全部都先收了你不知道現在這個我們立法院這個一個月兩千那如果像台大的脫英他們台大的員工台大的學生一個月五百品質又好然後又近然後大家都爭著要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
23491.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
23511 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
比如说是这样子结果你们说我们要优先什么什么结果里面都优先长官的或是其他的你们想一下因为这样子没有放上去的话没有处分的话我们的第18条好像形同虚定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
23513.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
23533.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
而且不是只有政府機關設定也包含一般的民間企業也是一樣我們講說違法違法又怎麼樣違法又沒有罰則就是不是只有政府而且包括法人也就是有一些公司如果設定企業托育結果去收非員工的子女也沒有罰則但是他違法違法沒有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
23543.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
23563.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
法人以外民間企業也是啊但是這個18條他原來這邊是針對政府機關他不是民間法人針對政府機關他設立了拖音中心然後政府設立的他第一個他的員工這個沒有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
23564.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
23571 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
沒有這裡並不是只有公立的他是講說你看第18條是講說第一個是政府機關過得設立托嬰中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
23577.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
23594.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
但是一般人設立托嬰中心的話要取得主管機關許可但是你講的順序它是寫在政府機關購政府機關購裡面如果說的話有優先順序但這裡面最後一項第四項是講學校法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
23594.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
23614.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
醫院或商業商業機構一般民間企業依性供法去訂的也算喔所以最後一項並不是只有政府機關構最後一項第四項講的是連一般企業一般企業民間企業也包含在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
23620.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
23636.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我們跟委員報告一下如果是這樣子的話我們建議是不是就聚焦在第18條第3項政府機關構去設立的拖延重點沒有啦 你聽不懂我說的就是我們就是要規範民間可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
23637.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
23653.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
第四項才是更那個第四項是說你設立了企業裡面的托嬰中心以招收其所屬員工與其簽訂契約辦理聯合托育者所屬員工的直系血清杯清數為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
23654.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
23674.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那如果你招收外面收的錢更多你如果說立法院收兩千那你收到外面收五千八千或是說台大裡面的收五百那台大外面的收五千他有可能就是說我先收錢比較收的比較多收入比較多的啊那但是違規的話沒有罰則啊他有可能違規的話沒有罰則啊就違反這個兒童法 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
23686.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
23711.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
他本来是我们希望鼓励性工法里面在企业里面办托育是希望他收托自己员工的子女但是有可能他说我对外收的费用比较多自己员工收的比较少但是我要优先去收这个非员工的子女我要以前收的多的为主那你要怎么处分没有得处分 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
23713.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
23722.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
所以我們才說我們這裡談的是說違反第18條第4項未經主管機關核准而遭受其他兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
23724.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
23744.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
微博部可以解釋一下你們的企託這個到底是不是本來就是要收他裡邊的人是有什麼條件才會去開放外邊不會本末倒置剛剛淑芬委員擔心我記得事實上是本來就有條件條件一定是內部的人到什麼條件還要經過你們允許才可以收外邊的不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
23745.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
23767.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
跟兩位委員報告跟委員報告這個第18條第三項第四項它本來就是設定的目的就是一個偏鼓勵性的措施那就是本來不一定會到本來一般的這個拖曳機構拖曳機構就是民間自己來設立所以它可能自己要找場地可能要找地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
23768.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
23794.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
所以在政府部門學校法人醫院或商業他可以去有一些如果他要服務照顧自己的同仁或者有一些相關的那可以用這樣的場地來做那在這個他基本上是一個比較偏鼓勵的性質但是既然是鼓勵那麼他原來的目的就是能夠照顧包括像自己的員工包括像一些需要協助的兒童那而在先前審議的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
23795.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
23822.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
也包括了就是因为在这个托婴中心里面工作的员工的子女然后去稳定这个托婴中心的呃工作人员的流动那大概从这样几个角度去做思考那所以如果说今天我们在这个认为因为这些情那当然因为这样的管理的关系所以他去设立的他就是要经过主管机都是需要经过主管机关的核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
23822.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
23851.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那他离这个托婴中心的内容他的设立的标准其实和民间基本上是几乎是相当的那这个如果说因为是这些鼓励去设立的机构那他在收托的顺序上面比外面还要因为如果是外面一般的私托他就随这个只要是只要是这个孩童他通通可以收就比较没有顺序的部分那这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
23852.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
23867.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
相較起來的話等於是對這些不管是像醫院或者商業他本來可能會使用自己空間來去設立托育機構這樣鼓勵的效果我們是比較怕說是不是會有一點折扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
23867.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
23891.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那政府部门的话因为毕竟是政府还是有一个这个带头跟表率性的作用我们建议是不是在如果要处罚的话是不是就先针对第18条第三项没有你一直都听不懂我们讲的话你现在讲说我一直在讲说外面的这个商业的民间企业的你还说他们要核准才能收拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
23892.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
23911.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我們一直鼓勵企業在自己的公司內部辦理收拖然後穩定員工的這個心情啊讓人家可敬性高一點嘛而且還要核准才能收拖可是你核准才能收拖然後沒有罰則這樣對不對我核准你了要以這個員工啦或者是這個保母的小孩為優先然後但是呢我核准你這樣子了結果你沒有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
23922.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
23941.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這個就形同虛定了再來就是說你到最後變成說本末倒置本來是要就近要鼓勵的結果變成說到最後他覺得這個就是一個賠錢不賺錢的地方所以我要收外面的小孩比收自己員工的數量還要多的時候他有可能到最後會變成這樣子如果沒有罰則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
23944.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
23961.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這個我有不一樣的意見就是說剛剛主管機關有講我們現在其實真的是需要去鼓勵更多的政府機關或者是企業他投入來附設這樣的一個托嬰中心這個其實是對於員工很好的福利政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
23961.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
23981.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那这样的一个政策我个人也比较倾向是要从奖励的角度包括化学劳动部都应该要更奖励就是跟卫福部这边来合作就是去设那如果基于奖励的性质在隔脱专法去很严格的然后说要定 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
23981.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24009.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
法則對像是這一些我們鼓勵政府機關跟企業願意自行再去設這一些拖曳設施的單位的話我覺得這樣在政策面可能會有就是你不僅沒有辦法去推展反而大家想說會動輒的就那算了就是不想設我覺得這個要考量這個政策的後座力跟效果那至於剛剛淑芬委員一直在講說有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24009.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24031.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
可能他就沒有辦法達到那個比例原則既然他是企業所設立的當然是企業員工優先嗎就是實務上你們現在有發現是企業設的然後他魚目混珠去大量招收外面反而禁止員工的子女或者是百般阻擾不讓他們加入這個設施嗎實務上有沒有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24036.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24049.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我想這個過去推企託就是非常難非常難因為企業通常不會要去設企託為什麼因為我今年員工有十個人懷孕生小孩明年呢是零後年也是零的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24050.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24064.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
會過往很難推動就是我沒有辦法預估說我人又聘進來了聘進來之後我不能隨時叫他說那你可能就會失業所以為什麼企圖所以我們上次看到數據大概都是說我給你錢貼補你 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24065.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24094.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
可是我自己比較涉因為企業有社會責任說他可以採取好幾種方式那勞動部那邊數據大概比較多的呈現的是還是給補助所以我個人也是比較不贊成因為而且企託我記得是有明文規定說一定要收自己的然後如果有真的是那我完全收不到我自己內部的孩子的時候還要請求要去做一些申請才可以收外邊的才有辦法所以大家也比較不會發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24096.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24115.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
剛剛蘇貞委員提的那種狀況啦因為真的企託我們知道他沒有辦法預估他每一年的孩子生的量所以他勢必有時候真的是這樣量沒有的時候他為了人這邊我聘的工作人員他畢竟還是在的話那他就必須要收外邊可是要經過政府核准蘇貞委員好那我們訂18條第4項要幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24122.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24142.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
因为我们第18条第4项就是告诉大家说你就是要严优先收拖我们的员工的直系血清杯清暑为主然后得收拖人数有余的时候才报请主管机关同意再死的招收其他的孩子那为什么企业里面要办这个是因为职场互助嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24143.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24160.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
而且企业在办这个的时候企业的场地条件也比较宽松在幼儿园的部分都已经发生了并不是没有幼儿园里面已经发生了业者去承办企业员工幼儿园其实企业没有办法办其实都委托业者去办 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24161.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
24183.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那其實你都不要覺得說這個會企業自己辦他一定是委託出去他委託出去而且他企業的場地條件是寬鬆的所以業者經營起來其實成本也是比較低的他的承辦業者去承辦企業的員工幼兒園結果去收其他的小孩所以在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
24188.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
24203.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
勞動部有補助如果到最後都沒有自己的小孩那還要補助他們嗎就是你補助他們錢貼補他們去辦這個職場收托可是如果這裡面都沒有自己員工的小孩我們還要補助他們嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
24206.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
24230.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我們訂第18條第4項到底是要幹什麼因為如果我們覺得企業拖音中心不用管收拖是不是外面的人那也不用罰那我們也不用核准我們幹嘛要訂這第4項如果第4項還要核准還要你核准你要確認他優先先收拖了然後有餘額才核准他出去外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
24232.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
24258.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
招收其他的小孩那這樣子我們這一條都沒有法則我們從這條是要從這樣第四項可以拿掉這宣誓性的條文然後這個我要再講一次就幼兒園在職場互助上都已經發生過這種案例了真的就是這樣子雖然是鼓勵的措施但是這個都不是企業去承辦的都是委託業者去辦理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
24259.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
24283.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那因为没有法则所以对业者来讲他优先想到的绝对不是职场互助他优先想到的应该是获利的多少不要跟我说业者没有获利他会想要去承办那如果这里面都没有该企业的员工的小孩或是企业员工的小孩只有一层九成都是外面的小孩的话我们劳动部还要再补助这一种托儿托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
24284.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
24311.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
还要再给他们宽松的场地的管理这业者经营这个太好赚了老实说了如果是真的没有任何规范的话我抱歉我再说回他们并不是太好赚了不见得太好赚因为的确是少子化小孩很少我知道收托很不容易但是如果要像大家讲的那样子的话我们18条第4项应该也可以删除了因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
24311.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
24334.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
也不用核准了啊干嘛要核准都是鼓励的啊我们干嘛硬性规定人家商业企业照这个性供罚收的托婴中心还要你政府核准什么照你照鼓励性措施来讲的话都都已经人家有设就不错了设个样子给你政府看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
24337.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
24363.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
剛才那個韓氏有找到了我想這個議題我們也討論非常久因為我覺得第18條本來過去為什麼我相信當時為什麼要這樣訂事實上是第三項過去一直以來政府機關辦的都沒有先讓員工因為他自己的孩子他要大老遠送到別的地方又來這邊上班所以為了解決這個問題才有這一項可是第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
24363.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
24390.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
要去解決的是如果說燒脫的人數有餘額的時候的確真的要讓他同意去收外邊的孩子所以有這樣的一個考慮點所以我說如果這樣的話第一個是請法務部做說明否則就是我們先如果溝通不了那我們就先休息然後讓衛福部去跟委員們溝通之後我們再開那我們先請法務部先做這個說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
24397.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
24407.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
主席 請問是要說明哪一個部分因為你今天講 釐清一下這18條因為我覺得18條本來個別我自己在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
24409.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
24430.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
因為就像淑芬委員講那實務上的確也是如果他整個商業或學校做不下去的時候他的確就是要對外收碼這是第四項第三項是政府部門過去很多時候事實上是政府部門辦的他都不先讓員工的孩子進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
24432.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
24450.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那就會變成是說那他員工的孩子就像學校我如果小學的話我老師的孩子我事實上可以優先來就讀這學校跟隨同我來這邊可變成不隨同所以第三項才會有這樣子的規定所在那可是現在主任委員覺得說如果這樣的話應該要在我們的67條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
24453.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
24470.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
給予說那是不是因為這樣子的話應該要有些限制要有些處罰罰則如果說他不先收自己的小孩就去收外邊可是這個法條本來寫的是說如果你自己收了孩子之後有餘額的話才是去外邊收 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
24470.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
24489.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那他担心食物上我们第四项已经有弹性了我们第四项并不是没有弹性第四项弹性说我的员工都没有小孩了我当然还要收外面我们也允许也核准但如果员工还有小孩你不让员工优先来你先收外面我们才要处罚 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
24491.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
24508.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
我們處罰的是你員工有小孩要送托你不收然後你先收外面的如果這樣子這通常都是檢舉案啦我認為啦來我們先休息這已經有彈性了衛福部跟我們的署分委員先溝通一下我們先休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
24635.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
24641.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這樣好了我們就持處分那個沒有核准就收外面的就好了沒有核准就收外面的啦因為我們就處分那個沒有核准因為要經核准才能收外面吧我們就只處分我們就只處分沒有他要經主管機關同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
24659.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
24682.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我們就只處分我們限縮在只處分沒有報主管機關就自己收外面這樣子啦這樣就簡單多了對啦可以我們就只處分沒有報主管機關就自行收外面這樣就好了沒有啦他有報主管機關的我們就不處分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
24688.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
24711.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
不是啊 那你給人家核准你給人家核准那個程序 可是你沒有罰則那你核准就定義當免啦其實本來就是用這種 用輔導的比較好 鼓勵跟輔導這邊用罰則 這是對啊 但現在問題是 它都歪色 明色圖圓中心那是要跟一般的圖圓中心不是您說的資產互助 資產互助是 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
25719.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
25724.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
好來我們繼續開會我們後面還有 華澤還有將近10條現在處理到第67條那柯委員對67條有沒有什麼其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
25738.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
25760.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
67條我們剛才已經講了兩個問題一個就是說第18條第4項如果你們建議不要處分的話那我們是不是回頭你給人家還要地方主管機關核准那你乾脆廢掉你的第18條第4項要不然你增了那一條沒有罰則我覺得是怪怪的所以這個我也是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
25761.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
25789.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那再來就是說教育部的韓式經驗我剛才有傳給你們是不是有傳給大家要放給大家看嗎就是說曾經發生過縣市政府承辦阻止居托服務中心通報結果都沒有通報那這種狀況因為我們要處罰嘛那也允不允許比照這個參照教育部的韓式就如果中心已經善盡督導管理職責也通報但是最後沒有沒有通報完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
25791.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25799.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
是不是就不予處罰這樣子啦大家把這一個把這一個公文拿出來看一下你要不要先說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25823.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25842.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
有關第67條是不是針對18條的第3項跟第4項的部分去處罰我們確實是我們覺得這個以台灣目前托育資源其實還是需要持續來去鼓勵大家設置的角度來看的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25843.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25861.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
而且目前政府機關對於鼓勵大家去設立這樣托嬰的機構其實不管是衛福部我不知道勞動部這邊是不是可能我不確定是不是有衛福部這邊其實不管是民間或者是公部門有設立公托的我們大家都盡可能在一定的範圍內透過計畫來給予獎勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25864.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25879.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所以在這邊我們會建議是說基於是這個先怎麼樣先去充實充足這樣的一個育兒的託嬰的量能的角度那如果在第67條要去徵定罰則的話尤其是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25882.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25908.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這個托育的對象如果跟原來的目的會有一些這個差距的話我們會建議是不是有可能就是參考原來委員的林委員的版本的78條的第二款那就是聚焦在這個我們現在院版18條的第三項就是公托的部分公立的托嬰中心的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25909.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25929.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
如果他的收拖的對象優先收拖的時候有違反這樣的範圍那我們把他納進來做一個處罰那至於其他學校法人或者等等去設立的部分是不是有機會那這個從鼓勵的角度那就暫時先不要把他納進來處罰那個以上跟委員做一個報告這個我們先保留好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25936.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
25962.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
這個要想一下我在這裡也是很難說我們是不是就這樣子因為事實上勞動部在這個補助上面每年最高補助50萬設立的時候補助500萬其實就是要希望建立一個職場友善然後大家優先希望鼓勵可以讓員工可以安心的生育這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
25962.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
25981.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
那我們一直不要講是說公立的不會有這個問題我們也沒有要處罰第三項因為公立的事實上這樣子訂的話公立的要違反這個規定的可能性太低了公托我們也不管但是我們在講就是說如果你拿了政府的補助然後拿了這樣的一個錢然後你18條第四項是這樣子訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
25988.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
26010.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
然后你结果没有任何的处分这样的立法的这样子立法我自己觉得我是觉得太怪了所以我们是不是这个部分先保留那另外我们在讲说教育部在幼照法的执行面上面讲的那一些问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
26016.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
26019.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
這個也保留好了啦這個也是可以保留大家看一下來請陳教授委員非公立的非公立的這個推中那個推中心既然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
26033.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
26062.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這衛福部這邊都一直說 現在就是要鼓勵現在沒有人要做 要鼓勵但我主張是先有 先求有再求好一下子就把罰則放進去那這樣的話是每一個我們每一個法條只要有個因我們就要有個對應的這個處罰但是這一個目的是政策鼓勵現在就是沒有人要做 我們要鼓勵他所以我覺得是先讓 先也許就遵照這個尊重院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
26063.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
26087.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
然後這未來也不是不能再修正這個一開始就就要求你說是滿分嗎也這也不叫這未必叫滿分這未必叫滿分那至於補助每年再繼續補助可以看看這個行政機關可以看看我給你補助然後你你沒有按照我建議的方式去做那也不是一個罰則或是一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
26090.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
26110.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
這個還有應該還有其他的方式可以處理我們也可以看看後來的數字怎麼樣因為現在大家都不知道會長成什麼樣子所以我不知道現在大家都在假設而且要求完美這個已經很多年了現在就是沒有這個是非公立的這已經很多年了並不是沒有做過 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
26112.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
26135.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
就是說我還是主張先求有再求好啦一個法剛開始出來你不可能面面俱到說不定面面俱到結果就反而反而很多事情就出更多的狀況沒有這個法但是本來也有很多管理的規則在啦但是就是說為了鼓勵企業建立友善的育兒職場環境其實勞動部他本來就依據性平性別平等工作法的第23條規定他就訂定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
26135.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
26141.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
補給乳市還有托兒設施設置標準及經費補助辦法他提供了企業去辦理托兒設施及措施經費補助每年分兩期受理申請那這個該補助的辦法原先是規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
26151.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
26165.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
企業新興建托兒壽司最高補助是300萬那為了擴大鼓勵企業附設托兒壽設施恆佐當前物價水準還有等等所以他對於企業新興建的托兒壽設施最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
26166.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
26188.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
補助金額提高到500萬算之後如果有補助改善或更新每年最高補助50萬好 我現在要說了我的意思是說勞動部這一個東西如果沒有任何規範的話大家會不會有業者起始傾向就是說這是唯一政府補助最多的而且是錢可以拿得最多的那大家就 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
26189.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
26195.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
跟企業合作說我企業得名我得利我來經營我去申請補助補助歸我的所以業者的經營成本是下降的但他會變成不平等競爭那不拿到跟企業合作的人拿不到這個步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
26207.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
26222.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
大家就變相來找企業合作企業大家就衝量反正這個我們都有設你看我們都有設但裡面收的優先收的不是員工的子女他收的可能就跟一般經營幼兒園跟一般經營這個托嬰中心是一樣的只是甲階企業的名字企業也有一個好名字然後在裡面經營然後又可以拿到勞動部500萬和50萬的補助何樂而不為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
26236.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
26248.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這樣子的量很多啦這樣子的量也很多啊可是這樣的量就是好的嗎而且這個東西已經是很多年了這麼多年它就是沒有但是如果我們不納管的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
26250.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
26261.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
他有可能 他也有可能的話就是業者說這是一個好途徑我可以拿到這麼多補助就有一些比較聰明的或是比較有辦法的跟企業 我也說好了我就去企業裡面申請然後來做比外面做 比外面自己做一個托營中心如果沒有補助也沒有500萬也沒有50萬 每年50萬都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
26274.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
26291.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
這樣 我要去企業裡面做企業說你看我有辦我企業內部的拖曳中心你看我裡面的拖曳中心設立了大家說你看我也有你看我也有其實是業者來經營的然後業者還可以拿500萬然後收的跟在外面收的一樣所以我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
26297.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
26307.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
如果我們第18條第4項要這樣子留著我們這裡沒有處分我已經講很多遍了我還是不要講了就是說我們是不是先保留了這個跟公托無關因為公托大概不太會有這種狀況機關裡面的應該我想也不會有這種狀況那我們這恰巧這裡就是要管理的就是民間企業這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
26323.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
26334.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
如果你們不要管理那你就把因為第18條第4項變成擺著放著而已你如果沒有任何處分不想管理那也可以拿掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
26336.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
26339.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我個人是不主張我認為是應該18條第4項留著然後違反這個規定的因為我們沒有要處分他其他的我們只處分說你企業的員工收拖料之後還有餘額你是要報地方政府主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
26355.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
26372.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
同意你就可以收拖外面了那我們只是要處分你連報地方政府同意就可以收拖外面你都不願意報我們只處分你沒有報地方政府就自己收拖外面的所以我們的管理強度是不高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
26373.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
26382.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
只是你第18條第4項叫人家說要報主管機關同意你就可以收脫你連第18條第4項連報都沒報我們當然要處分是處分沒有報地方政府的時候才處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
26391.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
26412.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我認為現在才一開始立法然後棍子跟蘿蔔兩個一起大大的都站在那個地方明明我們就是要給蘿蔔鼓勵大家來做那我們先把大家所有人都當壞人你給他的蘿蔔在哪裡就是鼓勵他們你說可以領補助那個是勞動部的又不是這部法 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
26413.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
26429.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那勞動部那個行之太多年了那另外一個我想說每一條法如果有個因在裡面那都要對應台灣的每一條法律都這樣嗎都要對應到一個罰則嗎每一個因都對應一個罰則嗎如果你的一個因沒有罰則那我們因什麼因這裡已經寫了很多的次序已經寫了次序有餘額的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
26431.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
26458.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
經主管核准所以你是認為說他們不需要經過主管機關核准就可以收外面不是員工的小孩我也沒意見因為這一條就是說你員工的子女收拖以外還有餘額你報地方主管機關同意你就可以收拖非員工的子女那你認為說不用報地方主管機關同意就直接可以收外面的人的子女你如果認為這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
26459.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
26476.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
我也是可以佩服你啊因為我就認為應該要報主管機關同意啊這個也可以接受檢舉然後看看去查查看是不是這樣我們就不能假設每個人都是這樣子做不是啊檢舉要幹嘛檢舉又沒有罰則檢舉幹嘛根本都不需要檢舉了因為檢舉完也沒有罰則要檢舉幹嘛好王玉敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
26482.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
26508.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我想這一條剛剛去討論很多我覺得每一個立法的目的或者是我們的政策都是要去思考他要達到什麼樣的效果那基本上如果看這第18條的話事實上他在原來的這個第三項裡面第三項裡面他本來就他可以收拖只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
26509.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
26532.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
血清杯清署需要協助兒童托孕中心員工的子女還有其他的兒童所以我們本來就是沒有去嚴格限制他不得去收拖其他的兒童你的第三項講的只有政府機關啦你看清楚我們在講第四項第四項才有涵蓋到民間企業所以就不要再講第三項了 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
26533.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
26557.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
那民間企業一樣可以啊民間企業就只有第四項規定只是說你要收非員工的小孩你就報地方主管機關同意就好了那我要處分的所以本來就是他可以啊可以啊所以彈性很大那這個為什麼要懲罰呢我們要處分的就是他連報地方主管機關都不願意就自己收外面的小孩本來他就可以收外面的小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
26557.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
26566.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
沒有你的第四項是要報主管機關同意才可以收你現在你現在一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
26568.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
26593.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
就是就我就是說糾結要報地方主管機關同意才能收外面的你連報都不願意報我真的覺得我們今天討論這個法要從更大的我們現在的狀況跟政策的面向來討論那本來我們現在就是鼓勵政府機關跟企業你應該要去我們根據我們的性平反我們就希望鼓勵他去增設這樣的一個拖音機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
26594.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
26619.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
如果你的政策目的是要去鼓勵的話然後再去加罰則我覺得這個基本上在政策的旨意上面是有所衝突的所以如果我們是獎勵應該就是鼓勵他去申請那主管機關要不要有行政的裁量權現行的行政院的版本他這樣寫沒有什麼錯就是說他在提報他告訴主管機關我覺得這樣就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
26620.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
26645.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
一定要去增設閥者真的要去考慮我剛剛已經講過了如果是這樣的立法他會造成的效果是什麼會不會導致想生設的人他看到閥者他又猶豫了那這個我覺得是我們要去考量的那我覺得實務上剛剛淑芬我一直在舉例說有人會去佔用政府的資源設了之後都去大量招收外面反而員工沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
26647.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
26670.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我剛剛也叫主管機關要回應一下就現在實務上是不是有這一種這是一個推論還是現況的確有如果現況的確有這一種你們行政又沒有辦法去管理他那的確就需要設法則但是如果不是我覺得是不是先讓法先上路然後有有必要的時候再加嚴因為這一條真的討論很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
26673.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
26687.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
我們等一下是不是請勞動部講一下因為就是說這一整部法請大家記住這裡不是在鼓勵設置這裡整部法都在講管理管理這裡不是基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
26688.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
26715.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
這裡不是在鼓勵什麼政策這裡講的是要管理這一些機關還有從業人員要怎麼管理那我們現在講的鼓勵也不是放任鼓勵也不是放任所以在這裡我們要有效的立法當然是要有對應的法則否則你規定因他查到了沒有法則我們的因就等於淪於百事莊事無效的立法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
26716.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
26745.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那我們你要叫勞動部來講一下說他們這樣他們鼓勵因為他們是性供法他們是性供法性供法基本上是宣示基本政策的態度但是我們這裡是管理法管理這是不同的概念的法律所以除非你們把第18條第4項拿掉要不然它本來有效的立法就對應本來就是要有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
26747.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
26763.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
而且我們就是我跟你講18條第4項就是已經是彈性了你本來就可以收外面的小孩了只要你報我縣市政府同意就好了你連報縣市政府同意都不願意做就直接去收外面的小孩這樣是對的我們在這裡說我們不要一樣讓他去他要做的很不簡單都做假的他還是做假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
26772.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
26798.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
現在都以收拖外面為主自己員工為輔能自己員工還送到外面去因為價格絕對不一樣來 行政黨員要不要再回應如果再回應沒有辦法就保留快點不確定勞動部這邊如果有相關實務運作的經驗是不是可以一併幫忙做一些說明勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
26803.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
26803.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
來 請到麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
26807.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
26833.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
我們對於企業托育的措施設施都是採獎勵鼓勵的所以他一定要員工的子女那我們在審核補助的時候才會提供補助如果沒有員工子女就不會補助了這是我們負責的地方其他管理層面的話可能我們就比較沒有辦法員工子女要幾個%的比例有沒有限制一個也算是有員工子女資格上至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
26833.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
26859.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
至少有一個就叫有員工子女就可以補助了是吧就一定要有啦一定要有就一個也是有啊但不要忘了性工法是基本法而兒童兒童托育這裡是專業的管理法這裡是兒童托育服務法是管理作用法不是政策宣示的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
26867.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
26884.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
我最後再講一次當時在這個新評法裡面去修這個是我當時提出來的法案然後我當時的目的就是希望這個企業多多去設置這樣的一個托育的相關的機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
26885.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
26901.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那因為這個真的是對員工是最便利的一個模式但是推展到現在坦白講我之前諮詢勞動部也覺得這個成效都不好就是說推進的速度其實太慢那我們這邊這個是托育專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
26902.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
26924.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
勞動部那邊是要求一定規模比例的企業他應該要去設置這兩個法完全沒有關係他當然有關係因為你是這邊設置的越嚴格他那邊推動就越不易嘛那兩個是產生聯動的那如果主管就會回去討論一下如果你們的行政管理措施都可以去確保他在審查過程當中以員工子女為優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
26926.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
26954.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
這個是你們在審查的要件之一的話那我的立場就是這邊就可以不用再去設法了就透過行政管理的模式況且實務上就我知道現在比較大型真的有去設置的包括這一些幼兒園譬如說橘子或者是台積電他們當然是以自己的員工為優先我目前是還沒有知道說是有點掛羊頭賣狗肉就企業設了然後專收別人的目前這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
26955.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
26964.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我是不知道勞動部有沒有去查但是實況是企業運輸社就已經很少了那有設的我知道的是以員工子女為優先好啦 保留啦 好不好好啦 保留 因為你如果沒有保住也沒有處長好像一個書長在政策上他也沒有在場拍板來 繼續審查所以我們要怎麼討論媽媽看過連個次長都沒有的繼續審查 保留條文第68條請行政機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
26989.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
27015.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
第68條當時保留是因為要配合第11條在討論過程中先前是有保留的那第6 11條的部分已經討論通過了所以第68條的部分我們建議是可以依照行政院版本的條文來做審查 以上報告委員針對第68條有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
27046.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
27058.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
好各位如果第68條沒有意見我們就照行政院的版本來通過好謝謝然後繼續來審查保留條文第69條 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
27060.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
27087.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
第69 修正東西是第9條 第9案第69條的部分那這個因為裡面處罰的構成要件的部分有涉及到第30條以及第34條那這兩個條目前都還在保留我們建議第69條是不是先請一併保留以上好 謝謝各位沒有意見我們就先行保留繼續審查保留條款第70條 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
27091.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
27117.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
第70條的部分 先前是因為涉及到草案第8條和第52條先行保留不過這兩個條文在現在審查的部分都已經通過了那我們建議在這個條文的部分是可以來進行審查不過因為52條是今天上午才剛剛審查完畢那我們在條文的文字上面有配合建議會做一些調整的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
27118.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
27138.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那主要的調整的部分包括在第一項文字我們調文的文字現在建議修正的文字有放在有公佈出來有放在那個螢幕上面那我們從第一款的部分主款來做一個說明那第一款的部分有做一些文配合第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
27139.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
27161.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
配合第8條文字有做一些簡單整理把那個變成實施文字有做一些整理那第二款的部分那只是文字有做一個比較大幅度的配合第15條跟第28條的文字那我們把它修正為居家托育人員或托育機構訂定書面契約內容是有違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
27162.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
27190.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
中央主管機關依第15條第二項或第28條第二項鎖定的定型化契約範本與其應記載及不得記載事項那這個部分是配合第15條跟第28條部分去把它做一個比較明文的規定然後這款是做相關的甄列那第三款的部分我們在文字上面有做甄列那配合那個第52條的文字我們增加前段兩個字然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
27193.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
27213.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
第四款的部分那也是文字會做一個調整就是專業人員的這個訓練跟服務的部分是要在前兩年或在提供服務三個月內完成相關的救命術訓練這也是跟配合第52條的文字做比較清楚的描述那第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
27213.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
27242.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
的文字也是配合第52條那我們把文字再做一個整理我們會把它修正為每兩年內在完成8小時以上兒童基本救命術訓練3小時以上事故傷害預防及處理或一次以上急救緊急救護情境演練這個配合早上所審議的文字我們來做一個調整好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
27244.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
27272.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
來 請聽書委員各位就是說因為我們是希望違反書面契約的就照這一條違反地形化契約範本的就照這一條這樣子處理就是居家托育人員但是我們希望托育機構不要這樣子托育機構刪除原因是說托育中心或托育機構他已經是一個業者了 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
27272.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
27292.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那相對業者家長是相對弱勢的那相對保母的話保母這跟家長的地位是相對是相對於平等的那而且業者經營一個機構跟一個保母照顧小孩的收入兩者不可同日而語所以業對業者來講應該有更強大的比較更 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
27297.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
27324.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
比較高強度一點的責任所以我們希望把業者的這個責任是直接適用消保法的規定那居家保姆考量他的收入啊能力啊所以我們才說適用這一款所以我們希望第二款是托育機構要適用消保法的規定而居家保姆才適用這一款因為這一款是財閥 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
27326.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
27344.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
多少多少錢因為這個消保法是罰3萬到50萬消保法是罰3萬到50萬如果一個機構跟一個在居家保姆你都一樣都罰6千到3萬這個我覺得好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
27348.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
27360.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
比例原則不是很對你對居家保姆罰這樣OK可是對業者是不是應該照消保法五十六之一條消保法五十六之一條他可以直接裁罰三萬到五十萬就是保姆跟一個托嬰中心應該是裁罰的強度要不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
27373.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
27379.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
因為收入也不成比例啊家長跟經營者的關係也不對等啦 老實說來 請到委員有意見嗎如果沒有就請行政機關再回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
27392.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
27412.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
我們確實是覺得這個在如果它同樣都是違反一個定型化契約的要求因為現行的規定我們都是對於脫英的部分主要是有一個契約的範本但是並不是沒有現行的狀況沒有到消保法的定型化契約的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
27412.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
27427.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那未來在這個托育服務法通過之後就全部要去適用托育服務法他就要去訂相關的定型化契約規定那這個既然是我們的想法是不管是個人或者是機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
27428.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
27454.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那他的違規的樣態其實就是沒有遵照沒有依照定型化契約的行為那要去來做處罰那至於這個對於不管是居家托育的保姆或者是托嬰中心這樣的托育機構那他的違規行為的樣態其實應該是一樣的就是他就是違反這樣定型化契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
27455.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
27473.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
那我們未來在訂定定型化契約的時候也都會針對這個兩個不同的這個服務樣態去分別去做規範那我們會建議是不是有可能還是就是針對它同樣都是違反定型化契約的部分那通通就是全部用依照這個規定來做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
27477.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
27493.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
第一種人士用托育服務法處罰第二種用消保法去做處理這個在法規適用上面的話其實那你前面其他條款包括林月琴委員講的條款你怎麼托育人員居家保姆處分的跟這個機構處分的會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
27495.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
27520.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
前幾個小時前才這樣子分等級處理了在這裡你又說都違反一樣的事情應該要一樣的處分不是啦 這不是一樣的事情你要想想看一個機構他收托30名收入是多少一個保姆收托一兩名他收入是多少這有對等嗎那你在這個定型化契約你違反裡面你的獲利你的獲利的狀況會一樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
27523.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
27545.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那一個機構的把關的要件不是應該要比也是要相當嚴格因為他動輒影響的是數十個小孩一個保姆可能帶一個兩個影響一兩個小孩所以這個是分級管理的概念怎麼會是說違反的事情都一樣所以處分都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
27547.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
27555.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
剛才林月琴委員剛才哪一條她不是說這個機構應該處分高強度高一點這樣你們剛才怎麼同意哪一條月琴的她不是剛才在說她認為機構處分應該要強度高一點那居家保姆處分強度低一點要分級 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
27573.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
27595.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
這裡就不是違反的東西一樣的問題一個機構違法影響的孩子是多少啊一個保姆違反這個地形化契約影響了小孩是幾個影響層面不一樣獲利的數金額也不一樣他所應該要承擔的責任也不一樣不是嗎請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
27602.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
27606.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
一個是人在照顧小孩一個是機構跟委員報告其實我們在這個寫的時候我們心裡面預設的一個情境是說如果有一個托育機構那他對於他所托育的對象通通都是用違反這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
27627.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
27651.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
對啊他如果都違反這個定型化契約的話他其實就是每簽一個月就是有一個違規的行為啦其實我們原來在我們原來在訂這樣的條文在做這樣條文整理的時候我現在問你你用了這一條是不是阻卻了人家從消保法裡面的所賦予他的權利是不是阻卻了消保法第56-1條 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
27656.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
27662.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
本來沒有訂這個特別法以前我普遍就是適用五十六支一條啊你訂了這個特別法結果特別法的處分是比五十六支一還要輕的本來是三萬結果你是變六千這機構應該是還蠻爽的吧六千他獲利就不止那些六千了按人頭人家消保法也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
27688.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
27697.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
而且他會變成消保法是普通法他這裡是特別法要適用這裡欸消保法的特別法就是要優先適用70條欸要先罰6千不可以先罰3萬欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
27704.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
27723.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
所以我們在講說其實是保姆這樣子是適當因為他行為人是一個人可是如果一個機構你阻卻了他從透過消保法裡面所賦予他的權利的保障消費者的保障結果你讓他特別法其實是重放的那我們可以請法務部表示一下意見那請參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
27731.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
27736.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
應該是說沒次長沒部長大姐我們都保留比較多保留啦那請說明啦是 主席跟各位委員報告一下因為看那個消保法56條之一的確那個企業經營者使用定型化的契約如果有違反17條就是消保法的17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
27754.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
27780.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
公告的應記載不記載事項除非法律另有處罰規定那可能我們如果兒托法在這裡可能就是像消保法的處法律另有處罰規定外那個主管機關令其限期改正而借其不改正的確是3萬到30萬的罰還看起來是比我們現在兒托法的草案第70條的第一項第一款第二款罰則是比較重 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
27781.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
27802.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那也的確是兒托法在這裡應該算是比較是一個比較特別相較於消保法是特別的規範那會有優先以這個兒托法的規定來處理那會不會有這個處罰對象不同而不相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
27804.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
27829.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
這樣的一個處理可能就涉及到政策的考量那這個部分可能得請主管機關再仔細的評估我們在這裡念茲再茲所有這個對管理這個兒童就是兒童福利兒童權利兒童安全我們都要在這個法律裡面面面周到面面俱到結果你在他違反定型化契約的時候結果讓他逃脫了這個消保法基本法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
27830.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
27839.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
這個管理和處分你要讓他特別的可以逃脫那個責任保姆我認為是因為保姆是一個自然人是應該給他一個就他的資歷上資歷跟一個機構的資歷是不一樣保姆是應該適用這樣沒有錯可是一個機構你都是一個商業盈利的機構了一樣是商業盈利的機構你讓他跟保姆是一樣的這樣子是適當的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
27857.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
27884.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
剛剛那個署長有特別提到說你們你們當時的想法是如果是機構的話他跟A家長簽就是罰一個嘛ABCD就是一個家長就是一罰嘛對不對那一般的托嬰機構少說也有10個20個嘛那如果10個就是6萬20個是這樣子嗎你們當時的行政是這樣應該講清楚如果是這樣可能會比消保法更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
27894.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
27916.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
我是秉持一個合理性來討論這件事情我們有特別政黨的意思你現在都支持衛福部的做法了所以證明衛福部是理性中道的我支持合理的他們提的合理我也支持因為這個是兒托法跟政治無關跟政黨有關所以政府這個政策都是理性中道的所以我要他們說明書長請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
27923.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
27937.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
當初在這個對於這一類的人員違反定型化契約的部分的時候我們在選擇要處罰的時候我們確實是覺得這個不管是居托或者是機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
27938.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
27959.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
那原則上他的行為太樣一樣那就應該要用一樣的方式來處理所以我們當初在條文設計的時候比較沒有去考慮說這個要不然就全部走消保法要不然就全部走兒托法去訂立法則那如果說是個人居托的部分去走兒托法 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
27961.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
27984.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
這個機構的部分去走消防法的話在試用上確實是這個在試用上面一方面是也比較容易不太容易不一定能夠分清楚那第二個是也會變成是不一樣的這個在試用的時候對於不管是民眾端或者是政府機關在處罰端都不是都會比較容易會有困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
27985.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
28010.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
所以那如果說當然我們現在的選我們現在的建議是通通都在兒童法這邊來做處罰那這個處罰的額度的部分那我們現在是定在六千到三萬那如果是傾向於要用這個消保法的話那我們會建議是是不是就是保姆和這個機構就統一通通都用消保法來做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
28011.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
28026.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
那我们就至少是因为这个同样的违规太阳用同样的条文去处罚我们也尽可能能够这样子会比较一致不是啦你不知道你到底在讲什么自然人跟法人会一样吗我们这里讲的就是说你 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
28027.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
28047.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
從消保法違反定型化契約你的法人就適用消保法那你自然人你做一個保姆居家保姆我們就給你特別因為你的財產收入你的收託的對象你一年的收入多少所以這個資歷上差這麼多所以我用特別法給你從六千起跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
28048.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
28075.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
這是自然人法人法人就適用消保法這個在適用上怎麼會分不清楚呢機構還有立案耶拜託而且這個盈利事業機構盈利事業機關他們怎麼會不知道呢這個會有適用上有什麼問題法務部可以說嗎所以我說沒有次長沒有部長在這裡署長腦袋搞不清楚我們要找誰啊根本就不需要再寫也保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
28077.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
28106.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
對不對在這裡沒有次長沒有部長署長腦袋他能夠講什麼他敢講什麼就一個自然人一個法人你怎麼會說自然人要用跟法人一樣的處分的強度呢你怎麼說一個保姆要跟一個公司一個退營中心處罰都一樣從三萬起跳呢怎麼會怎麼會這樣子呢剛剛早上林耀前委員在這裡你說哪裡要處分的比較重 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
28107.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
28135.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
然後他還同意然後那時候怎麼不說保姆處分比較輕機構中心處分的比較重你怎麼不說不同意現在你在這裡就說你不能同意李月琴委員早上在講的時候你就同意因為自相矛盾嘛重點不是在這裡重點是他沒有長官政策上他要把這個架構他不敢決定啦他不敢決定我們在這裡討論保留就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
28140.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
28140.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
那署長就不要再回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
28143.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
28168.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
剛才所有的說明基本上大概都跟委員報告一下我們對於這個處罰的行為的樣態的結構那是不是要這個對於同樣的行為用同樣的條文的結構來做處理那當然如果最後委員輪大家的覺得這個對於托育機構要用比較重的罰則來處罰那麼我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
28173.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
28188.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
我們有兩個建議的方我們有兩個建議的方式那第一個是是不是要把這個對於因為對於違法處罰條文那只要不管是個人或者是機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
28190.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
28206.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
能夠在同一個法律裡面來做處理那如果機構要處罰比較重那我們是建議是不是可能把這個條文把機構的部分拆出來放到前面罰還額度比較高的條文裡面去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
28207.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
28222.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
但是至少它都是在這個條文在這個托育服務法裡面比較不會發生說一種行為樣態在托育服務法另外一種樣態在消費者保護法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
28223.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
28247.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
那這個是一個建議啦那是不是有可能有這樣的空間能夠讓我們來去看一下這個相對應的條文那我們來查一下這個消保法現在的這個罰環大概的條文那大概以他最低的罰環的額度來做這個做相對應的對照我們來配合看看把它放到哪一個先剛才的已經保留條文裡面以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
28248.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
28269.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
好 謝謝那就這樣就建議保留嘛因為早上我提的應該就是說今天如果5以下就用居家罰如果5以上他已經是機構的話就是要用機構罰因為他罰比較重啊因為這兩個層次不一樣那的確居家托育人員單一跟那個托這是兩種行為太一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
28272.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
28289.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
然後那個我覺得淑芬委員提的有一個東西對啦因為機構你這麼大機構在運作你為什麼會對於定型化契約在怎麼會應該記載不得記載的東西你會有一些反而還會去觸犯你是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
28290.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
28317.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
有組織有規模和一個居家托育服務人員我覺得層次上真的是有不一樣可是你們現在放在一起罰的東西一樣的話好像對於托育機構的那種他這麼有規模結果他犯的問題怎麼會跟一個居家托育服務中心一樣呢所以如果那就先保留你們再去看處理到哪一條以上好 就先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
28320.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
28340.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
繼續審查條文第71條那不好意思如果要保留的話只是讓我講一句話就是在第5個我剛剛不知道有沒有第5第5款好你們又把那個訓練拿掉那兩個字好那沒事有配合早上的審議我們文字有在做整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
28343.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
28369.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
然後第七十一條 保留條文第七十一條請說明 請機關說明第七十一條他這個原來是因為處罰是針對違反第五十六條的罰則那當時是保留那五十六條早上上午的部分已經審查通過那而各委員的版本基本上這個處罰的構成要件基本上都相當所以我們建議七十一條可以通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
28372.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
28390.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
好 各位人針對保留挑文第七條有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照行政院提案通過繼續審查保留挑文這個修正動議 對不起 陳培永是八十一條這個咧這還沒有處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
28399.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
28418.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
繼續審查保留條文 成比委員是81條 民主委員會提示82條有修正動議是張雅琳委員的第4案還有第14案是民主委員的修正動議請行政機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
28421.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
28444.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
針對林淑雯委員以及張海玲委員等提到的這個主要是針對祭典制的部分那針對祭典制的部分先前在討論的時候大方向上面大家是有覺得還是要把它放進來那我們也根據參考了委員的大概幾位委員的草案的版本我們把文字做了一些總體的整理我先把條文宣讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
28445.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
28463.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
那第一項我們在居家托育人員違反本法規定除依規定處罰要求限期改善或違其他必要之處之外者得依其對托育品質及兒童安全之違反程度即違規點數那居家托育人員違規點數達一定次數者 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
28466.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
28495.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
那主管機關應命其暫停一定期間之收託服務並視情節輕重公佈其姓名或廢紙登記證書及依家長意願協助轉託第三項前二項違規祭典之適用條件應祭典數停託期間通知程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
28498.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
28522.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
各位看條文草案有什麼意見好這個修正動議我是想說我們怕有糾紛所以我們要不要我是建議應該再修正最後一項就是說依第四項規定廢止登記者自廢止起那是另外一件事那就是說達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
28524.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
28542.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
第一項後面前項情形以廢證者不予記違規點數你如果被廢證了就點數都不用再記了因為免得說我只是記幾點你都廢證了還記幾點就明文規定講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
28543.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
28559.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
那再來就是第一項的後面就是我們講說違規祭典嘛我們裡面一到三點要不要明定下去就是我們的法律上就是從一點到三點就是點數一到三點那前項請行以廢聖者不予祭違規點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
28561.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
28579.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
那另外就是說我剛剛講最後一項加一個依第四項規定廢紙登記者我們要不要限縮要明文規定他幾年內不得再辦理登記為居家托育人員就是如果你被廢紙登記了你幾年不可以再登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
28582.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
28594.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那我們要明定因為你剝奪他的工作權那你要剝奪他幾年事實上要明定上去的法律一定要明文規定是一到四年嗎然後第二項居家托育人員違規點數達一定次數者點數違規點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
28615.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
28624.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
對有寫了一定次數者可以了吧不是違規次數應該是可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
28629.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
28643.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
這一條是你們後來去修的想救救你的第三項裡邊前兩項違規祭典之適用條款這個適用條款是什麼為什麼我這樣問 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
28645.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
28663.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
因為這祭典呢事實上是應該是最早是台北在執行那台北在執行的時候裡面寫的真的很多事實上是法條裡面法條裡面如果已經違反那些東西本來就應該事實上是搞不好是Get out的那或者是已經違反很嚴重那時候我們還講說那為什麼還寫在那邊讓它祭典 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
28667.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
28695.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
他已經超收為什麼還在祭典所以我在講說你說適用條款因為當初彭婉如那時候他們要弄是因為想要那個小錯不斷大錯不犯大錯就是那個已經違規的可是你現在講適用條款我就很擔心到時候這些條款是什麼條款會落入到這邊的條款基本上都已經是違法的了違反你這個規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
28698.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
28723.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
那這樣子的話列出來你要祭典那我就很擔心那這樣子的話你還讓他祭典不是就應該事實上是開罰或者要去做什麼事情嗎或者是就是要把他停權所以我不知道就這幾個字可不可以請你們解釋一下你們真的要把之前的那個哪些條拿出來放嗎這有點風險費證的就不用再祭典了要費證 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
28726.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
28753.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
可是適用的條款裡面是不是這些條都是法條裡面有的所以我說可是法可是你現在你的文字寫這樣子是不是這個適用的條款裡面是不是會不會因為它是小錯的那部分根本沒在你的條款裡面那你也就是要去處理那個小錯然後累積到一定的程度的時候可是我說你這四個字可不可以解釋一下適用條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
28755.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
28783.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
兩位委員所這個提示的部分我做簡單的說明那這個條文的訂定確實就是希望能夠回應到幾位委員當時在提案裡面針對這個叫做小錯不斷大錯不犯的這樣這個目的確實是這樣那但是在先前在審查的過程中也面臨一個問題是到底什麼樣的行為應該記幾點因為這是一個全新的制度只有少數的縣市曾經去辦理過 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
28784.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
28810.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
那所以應該具體應該要怎麼訂的部分現在沒有辦法在法律條文裡面一次就把它講清楚所以我們在當時也在審查的時候是說是不是可能用一個授權的方式把它去訂出來所以未來在授權的這個訂定相關的辦法的時候我們會找廣邀各界對於違規的太陽的部分那應該怎麼樣去計點數的這個部分來做一個比較深入的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
28811.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
28833.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
那大方向上這個我們一定會緊記委員大概所提示的這個小錯 針對小錯才有祭典的問題到了大錯 例如說本來就應該要進入這個例如說可能會要進入消極資格多久不得任職像這樣的行為基本上是不會進去因為他會跟這個祭典制度本身就有漢格 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
28834.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
28862.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
委員可以 這個我們一定不會放進去這個先跟委員做一個報告那第二個就是在條文字的細節的部分那個剛才淑芬委員有提到的就是這個費政的部分是不用記點的這個就不需要再記點的部分我想如果真的有需要我們把它列進來沒有問題那費政的效果的部分在先前我們審查的條文裡面有提到那它也是參考目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
28863.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
28885.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
而效法的規定原則上如果他廢止過證書的話他在一年之內是不可以再重新來申請登記那也就是說未來在訂這些所謂的祭典的時候如果他的行為違規樣態會比這個廢證還會比這個還要重的話他其實屬性上就不太適合拿到這邊來再做祭典 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
28885.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
28908.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
所以這個部分將來在設計那個祭典的行為樣態的時候我們會一併來做一個討論那以上報告那剛才有提到文字的部分第二項是用次數還是點數等等這個部分的話這個我們可以再做一些整理以上來 請您的請問署長你沒有回答我我講的是你的那四個字適用條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
28909.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
28935.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
就表示這邊的法條有的你才會寫可是小錯不會在你法條裡面我質疑的是這個第二個如果適用的條款的話如果是可以適用的話那表示就已經要裁除了或者事實上是不OK的狀態怎麼會是垃圾點呢那個已經就是大錯啦所以我才說你要不要講一下那個什麼適用條款有沒有其他取代字眼是要去處理小錯而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
28936.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
28959.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
條款裡面有寫的那就已經是大錯了跟委員報告所以第一項裡面因為這個考慮到處罰構成要件法定這樣一個最基本的要求所以第一項裡面所以我們現在設定的就是除了依照規定處罰要求限期改善或為其他必要處之外它可以計違規點數所以它是處罰外再計點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
28962.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
28978.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
那如果沒有達到可以被處罰的條件目前在設計上我們確實因為考慮到處罰構成要件法定的因素我們現在可能比較確實會有一些困難有一些這種我們現在沒有辦法在這邊直接把 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
28978.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
28993.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
哪一個行為太陽要去記點的這個構成要件去把它寫在這邊所以我們現在未來會去記的點基本上就是已經會達到違法程度的行為只是它違法程度可能沒有到像消極資格程度這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
28994.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
29018.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
那這樣的一個條文設計的這個大概的基本設計的原則大概也和現在已經實務有在執行的這個違反道路交通安全管理處罰條例那它裡面的這個交通違規祭典也是一樣就是它除了處過罰款以外它會同時並行祭典大概是採取同樣的立法的一個概念大概先跟委員做個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
29019.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
29046.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
可是我說我剛剛擔心的就是有些你就不能夠有沒有實務上你就已經沒辦法列進去的因為你先寫了適用條款那本來就沒有在你這裡邊的所以我不知道說有沒有去問過實務現場的工作人員他們甚至台北市有做的經驗裡邊有哪一些東西否則的話你一旦寫上去的話會不會到時候你在訂執法的時候你根本就訂不下去有些東西你就沒辦法列入因為你已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
29047.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
29063.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
把這個適用條款這四個字放進去所以我才說有沒有一些彈性程度讓你們去寫未來方便才比較好一點可是你自己也就是自己把自己框定在這四個字裡面以後是很難處理的我的意思是這樣對 可以先回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
29074.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
29097.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
跟委員報告其實這個部分的話也有保留一些空間其實像在我們現在已經審過先前的在看到前面的條文在第八條的部分他的這個照顧的部分他會有一些相關照顧的基準對不起應該是文字應該是用實施準則在第八條已經通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
29099.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
29115.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
這個托育服務內容的實施準則是由中央主管機關來訂那違反這個實施準則是有罰還的所以這個部分的話其實未來有一些規定其實是可以透過訂在實施準則內 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
29116.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
29134.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
他雖然不見得在罰則裡面哪個違反第幾條但是在實施準則內如果能夠把他放進去的話其實一定的程度可以回應到剛才委員所比較關心有一些這個照顧上的一些托育的行為這個比較細項的管理大概還是可以有機會可以放進來的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
29135.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
29148.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
林巡委員不好意思因為你的第八條是你講的事實上是你們說推服因以什麼什麼為主體秉持的那個族群這一文化然後提供這些嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
29150.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
29166.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
它後面有四款就是應該提供的相關等等等等所以前項的話就包括就總共有五款也就是第一項有五款的那些內容嗎所以將來的實施準則基本上是根據這五款去做一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
29167.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
29192.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
那去把那個準則去把它列出來好 謝謝好 我想再把我們的修正動議再講一下就是說我們是希望在第一項裡面講到的是說居家托育人員違反本法規定除一規定這個處罰要求改善或為其他必要之處之外得依其對托育品質及兒童安全之危害程度即違規點數一到三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
29193.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
29205.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
除非你們還有更多的規劃否則我們是不是可以這樣子修就是加1點到3點接下來就是說我們接下來這一項講的是說但他違反本法直接就要費證的前項情形以費證者不予紀違規點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
29211.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
29227.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
這個是他的違法行為直接被判定為廢證的就不計點數了那再來最後一項我們認為是要加一個依第四項規定廢紙登記者就是說因為這個不是違法行為直接就廢證而是因為計點 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
29229.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
29241.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
就是小錯不斷然後記點記到被人家費證的人我們要限制他不得要多久裡面不得辦理登記為居家托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
29241.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
29257.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
否則他肺症馬上就去再去申請再考再申請就又通過了這也沒有意義啊所以是要一年兩年或三年是不是也要明定上去所以這我們的具體建議就是小錯不斷但大錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
29260.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
29273.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
已經被廢證的人就不再記點數要明定上去但小錯不斷不斷到廢紙登記證的這個也要限定他在重新執業要有年數的要有時間的規定來處罰這樣子是不同層次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
29282.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
29305.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
有關委員所提到的部分我們只有建議是這個1到3點的部分因為這個都是全新的是不是可以給行政部門保留一點空間因為未來也許真的是這個因為最後連現在連多少總數要費政目前都還有保留出來這個部分是不是可以給行政部門保留一點空間那委員所提到的第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
29306.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
29323.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
我們會建議這個委員的現在這個文字如果我們的目的是要針對已經要達到廢證就是依照相關的條文直接要廢止證書的他不得被列為可以去祭典的行為啦應該是這個意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
29324.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
29346.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
那這個部分的話我們可以參採我們也可以把文字去做一個調整把它拉進來這個部分沒有問題那最後一個就是這個廢紙證書那如果是因為我們剛才有提到在前面的罰則的條文66條對一般來廢紙證書的話它的原則就是它在一年之內是不可以重新登記的 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
29346.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
29360.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
那如果這邊要更明確的話那我們就是廢紙登記證書一年就是大概相對應的條文大概都有相同的處理我們在這邊把文字更清楚的把它列印出來你66條的廢紙證書是違規違害還是什麼 忘了因為一年好像有點短 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
29372.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
29391.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
現在我們講的是說限制他多久不得辦理是因為他小錯不斷然後一直累積然後講了再講講了再講結果你還一直在小錯不斷這樣子最後被廢證那你要限制他多久一年兩年我們建議是不是可以就參照剛才提到66條66條的是談的是什麼66條 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
29397.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
29418.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
他規避妨礙檢查或者是未依規定收拖時間專心托育或者是收費有違規這個這一種一年他不讓你檢查或者是跑出去自己跑去逛街把他留在家裡費正一年那這種小錯不斷的應該比他還要重吧不是嗎就是把小孩就在家裡然後自己跑出去費正一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
29429.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
29449.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
對但是因為是小錯不斷他累積起來未來就是他一年之內就是參照66條的精神我們就把他補起來就是原則上也是一年之內不可以再做登記我們應該是想說小錯不斷記點數記到被人家肺症到底是要比66條 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
29451.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
29468.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
再高一點管理的強度還是要跟他一樣就好了這是保留因為這個的確是可以思考這個到底是要比他更情節重大還是比他跟他一樣就好了這是你們自己的修正動議繼續我們來討論保留條文第72條然後修正動議是第4案黃正勳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
29480.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
29485.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
主席72條有一個附帶決議 可不可以請大家再確認一下附帶決議等一下會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
29504.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
29528.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
73條的部分那這個因為先前主要是因為有涉及到第11條當時還沒有討論完整所以當時是保留那這個第11條在前一次會議的時候大概已經討論完畢已經通過了所以我們建議這個第73條的部分是可以依照行政院的版本來通過 以上好 各位委員針對保留73條有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
29530.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
29539.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
沒有那我們就依照行政院提案來通過 謝謝繼續處理委員陳培宇84條 林淑穎85條來請行政機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
29550.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
29567.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
陳培宇委員和林淑芬委員的這個條文是針對他的那個相關擔任主管人員的資格的部分他是可以符合一定條在一定條件底下因為我們的這個資格調整過之後保障修正施行前的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
29568.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
29596.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
可以繼續擔任主管人員他會涉及到的這個主要的條文應該是在第44條但是44條先前決定一下44條的部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
29599.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
29599.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
也是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
29638.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
29653.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
那這個是涉及到原來零屬公委員和零屬公委員版本的44條和陳培宇委員的42條那這個條文因為這個目前現在還在保留中那我們建議這個條文是不是一併先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
29655.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
29683.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
好那我們就先行保留好來繼續審查保留條文第74條請給行政機關說明第74條的部分是因為他原來有涉及到11條18條19條20條那這個部分的話文字這個這幾個條文先前審查都已經通過了那所以我們建議是可以依照行政院的版本通過以上好各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
29685.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
29705.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
第74條沒有那我們就依照行政會提案通過 謝謝那我們第二輪已經走完那現在要不要抱歉我們是不是有一個定點零拖服務管理條文定點零拖好像上次有討論到剛剛保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
29711.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
29720.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
定點您都要含保留那個是在定義的條文後來我們有把它挪到第二條裡面去甄列定義第二條現在還是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
29723.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
29742.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
這樣好不好 因為第二輪走完了我們是休息個五分鐘 還是十分鐘讓行政機關再跟各位再討論一下或許有些文字再調整可以來再進行嘛 來通過然後附帶決議要補就趕快補 因為等一下要宣讀好 謝謝 我們休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
29768.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
29786.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
大概有三分之一到一半大概有五分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
29799.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
29816.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
第五條應該可以了吧第五是可以了吧第五 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
29823.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
29842.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
就後面的那個那個促銜書館調整的那個條圍是不是也沒有問題定點靈活用的條圍定點靈活用的條圍大家覺得說六十六小孩要怎麼考驗然後我剛剛說的定點靈活在哪裡我們定點靈活你日報放在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
29855.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
29863.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
第三條有定義然後我們要先申列一個定義第三條會先申列一個定義然後在第六條會申第六條後面申訂一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
29875.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
29886.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
因為我們本來是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
29898.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
29904.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
我們的版本是說地方主管機關則自行或委託非營利法人慢營利和離郭 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
29928.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
29928.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
29968.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
29970.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
29999.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
30026.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
我剛剛說可以去找我一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
30042.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
30042.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
又來又沒來 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
30071.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
30084.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
謝謝大家收看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
30090.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
30102.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
30113.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
30130.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
他們每一次都一本然後都把前面再整理所以我已經好幾本了每一本都不一樣每一本條紋都有一點不一樣你這是上次來什麼時候的這個是18號的這個是今天的對其實它前面也不一樣因為它有修後面後面都有不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
30133.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
30142.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
所以後來想一想我還是要拿回去交代一下你回去要再寫都會嗎要啊 都會要所以馬上真的聽一下是什麼東東 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
30144.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
30162.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
因為我們還有像剛剛那個其實是那個是其實是把我們那個稅務的那個部分他們是沒有證書他們其實是沒意見但是因為之前以前是他們業務所以那一點還是算我還是要聽到最後通過我好那回去要寫報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
30165.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
30179.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
像剛剛那個什麼小寶寶那個東西他們上次是這次才弄的對啊我就想說為什麼這次要把它弄進去就是變得拔得比較少因為小寶寶本來之前就想直接用小寶寶這次才把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
30186.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
30200.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
所以小寶寶好像是針對企業沒有 不是保姆也是裡面的企業經營者保姆也算因為它是提供服務的人都算因為我們在這個巡達的那一次就有討論過所以保姆也是在裡面原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
30235.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
30262.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
我們在講不是說人家本來不是用過吃藥的東西因為對人家不需要外保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
30273.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
30288.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
30305.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
30309.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
30316.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
30328.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
30332.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
30333.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
上市 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
30353.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
30359.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
市長來了趕快來作證你們應該有人聽趕快去趕快趕過來反觀真是不容易對 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
30388.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
30389.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
然後下個會期是人工生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
30412.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
30412.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
趕快來作證這麼可愛聖誕禮物 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
30429.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
30441.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
有很多消保法 因為有定70條有多一個就說居家保姆這都是您的居家保姆跟那個什麼拖欲機構他們的處罰是不是要一樣因為如果違反那個什麼那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
30451.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
30472.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
定情化契約的規範那處罰要不要一樣那月效保法是三萬到三十萬但是我們現在法定了就只有三千到六萬然後他們覺得應該要分開可是你們現在定時罰都定在同樣一些比較少那他就覺得應該要分開一個是不是男人一個是女人那有可能是可以的還有一個是什麼還有一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
30508.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
30514.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
對 還有一個 費正那個還好 那個圍堆最重的是18條片 私人企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
30534.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
30538.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
如果你放在桌上 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
30552.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
30570.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
市長還有一個18條第4項就是私人企業私人企業我們是要政策是要鼓勵他們弄脫而走但是現在就有一個條文就是說有優先要給員工的啊或者直系分清楚但是市長委員有說他們以前勞動部那邊他們鼓勵企業可是有發現說好像他們沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
30572.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
30589.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
收自己的然後都讓外面的人進來然後他就有賺一些賭注他覺得這個部分要有罰則但是我們衛福部原來的立場就覺得應該要鼓勵現在都沒有人要設你還給他罰則這樣子更不可能鼓勵企業去設托兒所 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
30591.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
30605.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
那這個他的意思就是要有罰則因為他如果沒有對他絕對要有罰則但是很多委員還有包括衛福部原來就想說現在已經企業都不願意設了你還給他罰則他就更不可能設了 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
30609.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
30630.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
現在重點是說,那好,他的重點是說,那現在有的是這樣,他有規定,你們有規定說,有餘額的要經過直轄縣市主管機關核准才可以收,那如果他有餘額的,就是收不滿的,他才對外收嘛,但是萬一他收不滿的,他又沒有經過主管機關核准,他就自己收,他覺得這個要有發展,那你們覺得要嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
30630.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
30636.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
這個就是政策喔是可以罰 但是也可以不罰因為如果要鼓勵的話對啊 要不然你只要有罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
30657.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
30660.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
不能夠 不能夠 不可執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
30684.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
30693.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
最後一哩路現在要順一下法條有很多就保留著再看看能不能再過幾條市長來就是可以做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
30730.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
30736.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
因為你事情處理那麼多很動腦又耗體力剛剛在報告其實消耗腦力是最累的 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
30755.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
30758.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
我覺得衛福部的法案是比這個部會兩倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
30765.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
30784.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
我們協商的時候在討論啊因為你現在你不是委員會也是要花時間花時間繼續討論這個保留啊你到協商的時候也是要花時間討論這個保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
30797.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
30798.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
已經超過10分鐘了 還不尷尬 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
30808.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
30821.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
我們建議你們跟委員再討論一次然後稍微再排斥 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
30833.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
30836.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
那個有鼓勵嗎?有用到那個嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
30854.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
30871.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
這幾件差不多,中間趕快去溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
30886.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
30915.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
報告委員會那本日開會時間延長至本法案審查完略再行散會請問各位委員有無異議有審查完略是什麼意思沒有啦那對我知道要送出去要審查完略但我們是那些我們自己想像的審查完略是保留的要取得共識還是保留的就保留出委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
30926.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
30941.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
我建議一下因為我們已經是第二輪那第二輪其實我們保留條文剛剛說大概高達2222嘛對那保留比例那麼高我是建議這當中是不是讓衛福部再去跟再 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
30942.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
30956.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
這些條文裡面有保留意見的委員就是在先行溝通好不好就是加速我們委員會的成長在溝通完之後再麻煩召委再排斥那他們溝通完之後透過委員會至少比例不要那麼高吧22條條文真的很多耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
30960.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
30983.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
欸 要三分之一啦 我是覺得可以對啊 所以剛剛才會有休息的時間請行政機關跟組裝保留的那幾條條文保留的是不是有溝通的共識啦 共識之後可能就可以再說幾條嘛所以你們都不去溝通了你們都不去溝通了 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
31003.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
31007.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
有沒有 有幾條有溝通好的三條而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
31014.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
31038.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
三六十六啦 三十如果你們有跟委員有溝通 有共識 有四條是沒有問題的那就剩保留十八條嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
31040.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
31054.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
應該是這麼說嘛18條就看各位委員要要送出委員會再來擇起協商還是一樣要保留在委員會裡面再擇起再審都沒有意見那我是不是先請宣讀這個互帶決議來請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
31057.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
31080.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
第二案 請衛生福利部一 於六個月內完成兒童托育服務法相關執法修訂二 於兒童托育服務法第十九條授權訂定之執法中 研議賦予地方主管機關依法行政依據如有事實 主任對兒童權益有侵害之餘者 主管機關得駁回其申請強化事前把關機制提案人委員 陳瑩 黃秀芳 林月琴 林淑芬 黃潔 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
31082.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
31108.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
第二案 地方政府應定期公佈托育機構違規處分紀錄並檢討資訊介入機制將經裁處確定且法規定名須公佈名稱之托育機構違規處分紀錄定期公佈於指定資訊網站並訂定公告期限公佈內容應包含違規事由法規依據及裁罰結果提案人委員 林月琴 王振旭 黃秀芳 郭育琴第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
31110.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
31138.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
第四案主管機關應積極辦理下列事項一 定期滾動式檢討監視錄影資料的保存期限並研議訂定統一的調閱標準作業程序此作業程序應明訂資料申請審核與調閱流程二 要求托育機構建立監視錄影設備故障或錄影中斷的及時通報與限期修復機制並將此機制落實情況納入地方主管機關查核項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
31140.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
31149.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
針對夜間托育機構研議紅外線攝影機的裝設需求與相關規範提案人 委員 林月琴 王振旭黃秀芳 郭育晴 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
31153.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
31174.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
第五案主管機關應邀集民間團體機構托育人員代表專家學者以及相關承辦托育服務之機構單位共同研商監視器管理之相關規範其規範內容應兼顧合理性公平性與時效性提案人委員 林月琴 林淑芬 王育敏 張雅玲第六案 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
31175.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
31202.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
托育機構之相關托育人員若有涉及本法第36條不得對兒童有身心虐待體罰霸凌性騷擾不當管教及其他對兒童之身心暴力或不當對待之行為直轄市縣市依本法第46條第一項規定於二個工作日內進行處理而依同條第二項規定進行調查時應負責保存相關涉入影音資料至調查或法律程序終結後三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
31203.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
31226.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
提案人委員王正旭 連署人委員林月琴 林淑芬第七案 中央主管機關應訂定相關規定使兒童執法訂代理人如發現兒童於托育機構期間有異常傷痕行為改變或其他具體懷疑時得檢據相關資料向直轄市縣市主管機關申請調閱特定期間之涉入影音資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
31226.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
31251.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
中央主管機關訂定之相關規定應包含調閱之條件隱私保護合理使用與救濟機制提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴林淑芬第八案授權中央主管機關建制違反兒童托育服務法查詢系統公布違反本法應公告之行為人姓名托育機構之名稱該機構負責人姓名及場所地址 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
31252.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
31265.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
因並公布其處分其日違反條文及罰還金額供社會大眾查詢提案人委員王振旭連署人委員林月琴 林淑芬第九案針對兒童托育服務法草案第30條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
31268.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
31284.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
托育機構應裝設監視錄影設備妥善管理攝錄影音資料至少保存30日並加以保密以及第30條第二項托育機構應將前項攝錄影音資料傳送至直轄市縣市主管機關建置之網際網路系統儲存 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
31285.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
31304.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
不得規避妨礙或拒絕 中央主管機關應訂定相關規定授權直轄市縣市主管機關定期追蹤檢查托育機構之攝錄攝錄設備運作錄影設備運作資料儲存以及上傳 提案人委員王振旭 聯署人委員林月琴楊耀 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
31305.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
31326.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
第十案 建請主管機關因參考幼照法第39條規定於本法三讀施行後邀請家長組織參與直轄市縣市主管機關對於托育服務評鑑之規劃提案人委員王玉敏 連署人委員陳昭芝 陳金輝第十一案 鑑於居家托育人員面臨老化危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
31327.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
31341.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
政府應解決托育服務供給方面所面臨之人才問題中央主管機關針對居家托育之發展及推動政策應每二年檢討修正提案人委員林淑芬 聯署人委員王振旭 林月琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
31342.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
31362.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
第十二案中央主管機關並應督導地方主管機關建立一致且具操作性的抽查原則查閱程序及記錄方式包含抽查比例時段選取異常通報流程及資訊安全管理等項目主管機關應避免抽查作業流於例行或反鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
31363.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
31382.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
確保查閱內容具有實質性與代表性提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 楊耀第十三案 中央主管機關因警守並落實居家托育為安置之補充性措施並督促直轄市縣市於五年內完備安置機構與寄養家庭之量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
31383.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
31398.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
提案人委員林淑芬 連署人委員王振旭 林月琴第十四案 請衛生福利部於本法三讀後三個月內提出下列配套規範一 建立兒童隱私分級保護研修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法實 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
31400.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
31418.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
評估研擬並公告兒童隱私分級保護機制二 資安管理與專責人力強化建立防備機制與內部存取控管規範三 托育從業人員心理健康與工作支持調查監管與政策對托育人員心理健康及流動率的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
31419.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
31435.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
明確訂定設置監視錄影設備之合理範圍四 前端預防與資源配置研修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法時評估納入提升高風險家庭篩檢與社工支持以及輕職教育普及化程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
31436.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
31453.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
五 政策檢討與報告 應定期檢討地方政府整體落實情形並於每年度向立法院提出書面報告提案人委員林月晴 王正旭 林淑芬 郭育晴第十五案 要求行政主管機關於托育服務相關案件進入審議程序前 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
31454.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
31481.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
應保障與事件具直接利害關係之當事人或其法定代理人得依法申請調閱完整調查報告內容其涉及第三人個人資料或依法應保護事項者得依個人資料保護法及相關規定進行去識別化或適當遮蔽後提供不得以概括性理由拒絕提供主管機關並應檢討並建立托育服務案件調查報告之調閱程序與作業原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
31483.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
31508.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員王振旭 黃秀芳第十六案 請衛生福利部會同地方主管機關研議建立退託後之追蹤管理機制就經依第六十三條處分之居家托育人員與其退託退場後持續追蹤一年掌握其後續是否在行從事未登記居家托育服務之情形並明確規範地方政府之追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
31510.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
31528.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
訪視及查核作業方式 提案人委員林月琴 連署人委員林淑芬 劉建國 宣讀完畢好 謝謝 現在處理附帶決議既有16案 那其中第一案已經在上個會期通過我們現在請自第二案起來做處理請問第二案 行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
31532.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
31550.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
第二案的部分我們會儘量來訂不過因為其實照現在整個下來的話我們整個算了一下包括要授權訂立的授權法規跟相關的公告的事項大概已經超過20項而且因為配合這個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
31552.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
31579.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
現在的草案的最後一條它的公佈時間是由行政院來定那我們建議這個跟委員申請一下是不是爭取一下這個時間是不是可以給我們稍微長一點那如果可以的話是不是可以給我們到一年以上好 這個兩個提案委員都連署人是不是可以表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
31581.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
31582.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
現在處理第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
31620.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
31625.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
DN可以嗎確定一下是本來是六個月要改成一年嗎對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
31630.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
31653.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
這個執法通常是定例的時間是一年以內是跟委員報告如果說一般法律修正那他如果是修正後就公佈施行的話那確實我們的法規密配套的法規密你通常在六個月之內要配套做完成那不過因為兒童法的話整個條文數量非常大其實先前大概討論過的現在施行日期是由行政院來定 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
31654.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
31678.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
那而且因為考慮到要訂的授權法規明令真的量非常多大概二十幾個那參考先前立法院通過的那個精神衛生法的部分他大概是修二十八個他其實是花了兩年的時間齁那我們是建議我們也盡量我們願意盡量來趕那所以是不是有可能結果是給我們一年的時間齁 以上阿弥陀佛 好嗎OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
31681.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
31705.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
好那我們就修正通過繼續處理第三案請問行政機關有意見第三案這個這個我們可以遵照辦理遵照辦理委員沒有意見沒有我們就照案通過處理第四案請問行政機關有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
31712.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
31727.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
我可不可以講一下因為現在這邊有點我那時候看就有點怪第一個就是在最後像有夜間你們有夜間托浴嗎沒有的話晚上還要用這些所以我不知道說你們自己沒有覺得這一些是有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
31733.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
31749.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
晚上就沒有小孩目前是幾乎都目前是幾乎沒有夜間托嬰所以我說你要同意這個嗎因為我覺得有點怪上次我看就有點所以我們會建議我們也確實是覺得建議在這邊是可以我們把它刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
31749.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
31763.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
那未來當然如果配合托育需要未來發展這樣的服務的時候其實即使沒有附帶決議我們還是可以那個因為他是托育服務他在機構端的時候他本來就是還是要做一個就要有那個錄像保存的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
31765.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
31792.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
還有這邊有寫說統一的調閱標準作業程序我們都沒有訂嗎這個在配合現在還在保留的第30條所以他本來就是會要在這個未來的授權的法規命令裡面來做統一的處理所以第一點的部分我們是可以遵照這個委員的附帶決議那未來在訂這個這個法規命令的時候我們去把相關的流程跟程序做一個比較清楚的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
31799.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
31811.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
因為前面是保留條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
31820.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
31833.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
不是 我剛剛也有要做宣讀要處理 要徵詢大家的意見也不是我直接說要怎麼樣怎樣嘛因為剛剛後來決議他們前任黨員自己都有看過了啊我怎麼知道現在又看一半 又看這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
31835.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
31863.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
然後我是不是建議因為你看他30條他明顯就是30條就是保留的條文你這邊要馬上通過附帶決議這個在審理程序上是有點奇怪我是建議因為剛宣讀完了那是不是就是這些附帶決議我看他們也是臨時這樣一直在看就是回去再仔細看一下然後連同前面保留的條文然後再去溝通然後下一次就一併把它處理完我是建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
31869.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
31895.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
沒有剛剛這個休息之前休息的那個休息我已經有走過去那邊有看署長一直在看的有在有在趕快看你現在就跳到旁邊一直看看大家意見沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
31906.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
31932.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
主席可不可以建議因為的確像殷敏委員提的那30條事實上的確那還沒有那可是其他條我覺得可以的話還是因為已經是第五次了因為我覺得還是外在還是對這個法有很高的期待所以是儘快所以我們是不是其他沒有保留的條文的附帶決議是不是可以就先行討論然後把它處理掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
31934.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
31957.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
就至少 至少減少掉一些量嘛像比如八 負債局那個第八案的話那是七十二條就不是三十條啊那還有二十三條啊 三十九條是不是先來把它做確認其他只要三十條有真的保留的我們就先不討論主席這樣可以嗎可以啊 怎麼不可以好 那 您講得很好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
31965.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
31991.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
所以第3案先保留了好不好那現在第5案30條的是不是就先保留好就建立保留直接到第8條可以嗎第8案72條的所以第6案可以保留對不對對都是30條的都保留可以嗎第6案不是30條對第7案可以保留第8案 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
31996.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
32016.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
來第八案行政機關表示意見遵照辦理遵照辦理委員你有沒有其他意見沒有第九也是保留我們就照案通過第九案保留第十案可以討論來第十案要不要保留行政機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
32020.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
32044.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
可以遵照辦理第十可以遵照辦理那各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就召喚通過第十一案第十一的話我記得兩年檢討修正已經進到條文了所以這個部分我們遵照辦理行政機關遵照辦理各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就召喚通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
32046.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
32072.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
第12案也是保留啊13案行政機關表示意見第13案我們遵照辦理好遵照辦理 各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過 繼續處理第14案請行政機關表示意見32條保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
32075.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
32099.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
好 繼續處理第15條第15案第15案的部分這個剛才在審議的過程其實有提到就是我們會建議在這個調查案件處理的時候是提供完整的調查報告那調查報告裡面就會含事實及理由那這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
32104.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
32124.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
這個應該是審議啦審議結果會有完會有充分的事實及理由那我們是建議這個部分的話文字是不是可以調查報告內容就是提供完整的審議結果那我們把這個文字做一個修正 以上來 底安委有沒有見 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
32128.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
32142.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
在哪邊可以在第委員的附帶決議在第二段的第四行第四行然後呢這個當事人獲取法定的德醫法申請調調閱完整的審議報審議結論審議結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
32153.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
32168.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
我為什麼不要是審議結果因為為什麼因為如果行為人可以看調查報告反而是受害者不能看調查報告過往事實上是那個那個對話的內容裡邊基本上有時候不是我講的內容主席因為這一條保留所以我們是第15案保留來繼續處理第16案 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
32184.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
32210.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
第十六案那剛才有跟月刑委員做一個報告那我們建議文字上做一個調整那就是各位委抱歉我們還來不及打成還來不及打出來那第六這個附帶決議主要是針對居家托育人員退場以後的一個追蹤管理那我們建議在第二段的第四行 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
32212.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
32216.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
那把後 這個與其退脫退場後 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
32219.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
32245.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
持續追蹤一年這六個字我們建議可以刪除但是要掌握但是後以下就還是接續到委員原來的決議文字就是掌握其後續是否再行從事未登記居家托育服務之情形然後也遵照剛才委員的提示就是並對經廢止設立許可的托育機構就是除了居家以外連機構也並納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
32246.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
32272.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
然後掌握有無借民重新申請設立情勢然後接到原來的文字明確規範地方政府之追蹤訪視及查核作業方式以防度違法收拖之黑數發生我們再加一段文字可是我對於那個一年我同意刪除可是持續追蹤這四個字我不同意刪除這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
32277.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
32301.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
其他的就按照你們的文字就只有那4個字怎樣可以嗎可以專稿辦理好那我們就依照行政單位剛剛建立的文字修正後通過好謝謝時間快到了那再請教各位是要要要出委員會還是要留在委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
32305.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
32309.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
出委員會然後現在有多少條是保留目前22條嘛對不對22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
32321.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
32336.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
因為這個只是形式上而已啦事實上我們到協商出委員會以後還是要run的一次啊那還是要就把我們沒有共識的保留的條款還要繼續再討論那在委員會也是討論出委員會也是討論其實就是出委員會跟不出委員會程序上要跑的討論的都不會跑不掉只是說要放在委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
32350.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
32360.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
好像看起來進度還比較慢這樣子所以我個人是沒有意見要出跟不出都一樣其實都一樣的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
32367.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
32386.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
因為我覺得這個會期已經是在剩下如果委員會一定到1月底了那如果我覺得我們委員會還是有很多事情要去處理如果是到協商的話是不是不占到委員會的時間我個人是比較支持再去做協商那看大家其他人的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
32388.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
32397.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
我想到了因為出委員會以後有其他委員會的人有意見的話也可以趁那個機會趕快來大家整合的會比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
32399.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
32427.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
沒有來的通通都是沒意見的如果你各個政黨或是其他的委員會因為這是我們衛黃委員會主審可是如果出了委員會就變成是院會協商了那院會協商的話其他黨其他委員會的委員有意見大家都一起來協商的時候一起一起討論必其功於一役不要在這裡討論好了出了委員會以後其他有意見了又到協商又來一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
32428.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
32456.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
那也是有一點麻煩啦出委員會以後還是召委排啊對啊召委要先排啊不是那個政黨喔還是召委先排他就是協商啦他還是協商啦我覺得主要是因為我們保留條文太多啦對啦通常協商其實不會但是我的意思是說出委員會以後即便是留召委他排但還是叫做協商而且還是叫做政黨協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
32457.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
32483.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
而現在在這裡就只是我們委員會的委員會的討論我們自己的事情但是到初委員會到政黨協商的時候就是正式的政黨協商委員會的召委排一次還沒有公示再到請我們的院長再請院長再協商一次所以對啦這個都一樣但是說他的權利其他委員會的委員來主張的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
32486.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
32487.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
他的權利會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
32489.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
32516.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
好了因為保留比例很高就尊重召委了看你你的時間怎麼樣如果你的時間其實在下下禮拜馬上就可以排一次那我覺得根本沒有差如果覺得下下禮拜以後有很多議案要排已經沒有時間然後下禮拜會運用我是很怕那個茶禮香來的人更少就是可能某個下午可能出席人更少我不知道那個對正式委員會來的可能還比例委員人數比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
32517.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
32525.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
我想我再補充一下我們這幾個絕對不管留在委員會還是政黨協商大家都一樣要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
32526.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
32551.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
我們這幾個大家都要為頭顧到尾所以對我們來說都沒有影響而有影響的是其他非本委員會的委員還有其他政黨的代表的人其實他們就有影響了對他們來講參與在這裡他只有討論權他沒有表決權但如果到協商 出委員會去協商他們就有參與權了是這樣的差別好 趙薇妳再聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
32560.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
32562.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
問妳的意見 妳要跟我決定對 這樣就不要問我了 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
32565.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
32589.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
這樣啦因為因為保留22條基本上還是我們在這邊認真審查委員的諸多的跟行政單位不同的意見嘛那到時候協商還是還是我們這些委員會出席因為我們在這委員會審兒托的草案已經已經第六次了我們已經第六次了所以我們也希望讓大家有一個有有比較誠摯的空間所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
32591.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
32608.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
我們現在做一下決議啦 兒童托育服務法草案等30案審查完畢並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論本案時 由召集委員建國補充說明那請問本案是否需交由黨人協商要 好 那交由黨人協商 第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
32610.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
32627.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
本法案條次條文中原理條次及法次用語調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報好本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |