| IVOD_ID |
17120 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17120 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-15T08:35:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-15T13:26:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:50:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6852898cc04c8ca19046c157e0ef5efe5a2d5e67b2ed516237551fda729125aa7ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、經濟部、農業部、交通部、國防部及內政部國土管理署就「全臺垃圾山危機與事業廢棄物去化」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:34 - 13:26:00 |
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報告委員會出席委員人數11人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會請議事人員宣讀上一次會議議事錄 |
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1334.628 |
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立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年12月8日星期一9時至17時29分12月10日星期三9時1分至16時53分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員盧委員憲一等15人列席委員鄭委員天才等16人列席官員12月8日衛生福利部政務次長呂健德等相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1360.383 |
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1386.892 |
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12月10日衛生福利部部長石崇良等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查行政院行情審議委員分別拟據兒童托育服務法草案等29案以及修正動議16案決議一本日會議審查結果如下照行政院提案通過第二條條文第四條照行政院提案修正通過 |
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1387.572 |
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1406.977 |
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第五条照行政院提案修正通过第七条委员林淑芬等25人提案第七条并同审查照行政院提案修正通过委员王玉明等24人提案第48条委员陈培宇等19人提案第12条委员严宽恒等16人提案第48条及委员林淑芬等25人提案第13条修正通过 |
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1407.717 |
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1427.992 |
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委員林淑芬等25人提案第15條修正通過第11條肇行政院提案修正通過第13條肇行政院提案委員林月琴等3人及委員林淑芬等3人所提修正動議修正通過第18條肇行政院提案及委員林淑芬等25人提案第24條修正通過第19條肇行政院提案修正通過 |
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1428.692 |
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1445.613 |
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第24條照行政院提案及委員林淑芬等25人提案第30條修正通過第26條照行政院提案及委員林月琴等3人所提修正動議修正通過委員陳佩玉等19人提案第40條及委員林淑芬等25人提案第42條照委員林淑芬等25人提案第42條通過 |
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1447.395 |
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1473.351 |
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委員陳佩玉等19人提案第41條委員林淑芬等25人提案第43條及委員陳金輝等17人提案第38條趙委員林淑芬等25人提案第43條修正通過第36條趙行政院提案委員林月琴等16人提案第61條及委員林淑芬等25人提案第45條修正通過第37條趙行政院提案修正通過不予採納委員王玉敏等24人及委員顏寬衡等16人提案第9條至第13條以及第16條保留條文 |
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1477.373 |
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1502.635 |
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行政院提案第三條第六條第十六條第三十條第三十四條第三十八條第三十九條及相關對應提案條文委員陳佩玉等十九人提案第十九條委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第二十二條及委員陳金輝等十七人提案第十八條委員陳佩玉等十九人提案第四十二條及委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第四十四條二行政院行情審議兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案尚未審查完均另則其繼續審查 |
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1504.057 |
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1527.498 |
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12月10日邀請衛生福利部部長勞動部及教育部就身心障礙者特教融合就業服務及自立生活現況進行專題報告並被質詢本日會議專題報告及討論事項才綜合詢答經委員陳昭芝及林楚英說明提案指去由衛生福利部部長報告及說明後委員陳昭芝等數人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1528.398 |
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1557.177 |
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勞動部勞動力發展署副署長施淑慧司法院少年及家事廳法官郭月明及教育部學生事務及特殊教育司副司長許家倩及各相關主管等即席答覆委員陳金輝楊耀楊瓊英范雲林楚音及徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定 |
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1558.897 |
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1576.382 |
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討論事項繼續審查及審查身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等27案本日會議由委員盧憲義等三人提出部分條文修正動議決議一說明及詢答完畢二身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等27案尚未審查完畢另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
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1584.586 |
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1604.838 |
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請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有議事錄確定那本日會議議程為邀請環境部部長衛生福利部經濟部農業部交通部國防部及內政部國土管理署就全台垃圾山垃圾山危機與事業廢棄物去化進行專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1609.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1637.051 |
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現在介紹在場委員及列席官員有陳昭資委員盧憲毅委員林月琴委員王振旭委員列席官員有環境部部長彭啟明資源循環署署長賴盈盈 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1639.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1662.952 |
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環境管理署署長嚴旭明環境保護司檢任視察吳靈竹大氣環境司檢任計政呂承陽水質保護司檢任計政簡良達化學物質管理署署長蔡夢玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1666.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1688.947 |
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衛生福利部醫事副司長劉玉金食品藥物管理署檢任記證楊博文經濟部產業發展署署長邱惠產業園區管理署副組長陳建堂能源署專門委員張群立 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1693.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1718.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
農業部資源永續利用司司長莊老達畜牧師檢任繼政馮一月漁業署組長陳文生林業及自然保育署組長范嘉祥農村發展及水土保持署組長蔡秀婉 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1722.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1746.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
農田水利署組長朱志斌農糧署科長李協昌交通部行政司檢任計政鄭宏鎮陸鎮及道安司科長魏俊安航港局組長胡凱成 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1750.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1769.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
國防部軍醫局醫務管理處處長王玉琦軍備局副局長陳義智資源規劃司副司長吳信仙後勤參謀次長是軍品整備處處長陳春中國防採購是商勤綜合處處長吳立文 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1781.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1801.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
內政部國土管理署主任秘書歐振興城鄉發展分署檢任政工程師陳和彬那接下來請環境部彭部長報告然後下一位請經濟部的代表也這個準備報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1809.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1829.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席各位委員還有在座的所有部會還有媒體朋友好那我由環境部來報告垃圾山的危機跟事業廢棄物的去化的議題那事實上我的內容大概會從各種的廢棄物從這個議題從去年到現在的進度是如何讓各位可以明確的了解第一個是我們根據最新的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1830.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1853.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們全台灣一般的垃圾就是我們家戶的垃圾產生量大概一年大概是470餘萬噸那這個裡面就分各個縣市狀況不一樣有的多有的少有的多有的少那當然這個跟人口是有關係的那如果我們用全國人均的垃圾量的話平均是0.5公斤左右那當然有些縣市還是比較多所以源頭減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1854.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1881.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
是非常重要的那這邊各位看到的嘉義縣特別多0.89公斤最主要是嘉義今年發生很大的風災他們把他算成這個人均的這個一般的垃圾量來做處理所以每個縣市他的算法可能有一點稍微會不一樣這個我們現在也會跟他們在做重新的規範跟定義那有的縣市的源頭減量基本上像金門縣是全台灣最好的人均的一般垃圾量是最好的好那另外一個的是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1882.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1908.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
各地垃圾的處理呢分為這個焚化廠的處理是台灣市大中那當然掩埋或是其他的方式都是一種可以的方式但是目前呢我們現在的平均來說的話大概我們事業廢棄物進場大概是20%左右當然有些縣市會稍微多了一點點例如說台北市高達63最主要是這個我們的家戶的公共型態很多的公寓大廈他的這個算法他就變成是所謂的事業廢棄物來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1909.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1924.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那另外一個呢是大家最關心的裸露垃圾為什麼要講裸露垃圾呢這個垃圾如果說裸露在外的話那當然就會有錯位甚至造成環境污水的一個問題所以住在這個附近有家裡附近可能幾公里內 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1925.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1951.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有這種裸露垃圾山基本上是苦不堪言常常會聞到臭味環境品質也不好當地也會造成一個很大的生態那為什麼要裸露呢就是說因為第一個是他當然是希望可以覆蓋掩埋有一個比較好的程序像右邊的圖蓋起來可是呢基本上有些縣市他們希望可以一兩年然後可以趕快進到焚化爐來處理可是如果沒有處理的話就變成環境的問題所以基本上去年的時候也 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1952.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1968.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
本人在上任之後其實就發現媒體說有百月台灣有百月垃圾山事實上我們最後清查是53座的裸露的垃圾山那掩埋的話當然掩埋場有掩埋場大概台灣有300多座但現在大多數已經有一些處置妥當了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1969.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1989.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以我們後來就跟各個縣市大概有11個縣市有這樣的問題所以各個11個縣市的環保局局長都到我們環境部我們一起來研議這種方案一起下了這個禁令狀也就是說明年年底我們要把裸露垃圾做好一個處理那目前的情況也跟各位報告到了截至到11月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1990.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2012.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們過去大概有53座現在是33座那垃圾量是裸露的垃圾量還是有60.8萬噸那原先我們預計是年底希望可以到41萬噸的但是各位知道我們這個今年發生大量的風災垃圾大概15.3萬噸還有廚餘又發生非洲豬瘟的廚餘所以大概有稍微落後了大概將近快要20萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2013.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2037.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那其中有兩個縣市已經先處理達標了,就是屏東縣跟嘉義市那有幾個縣市減量未達標,這是多數的縣市像台東、桃園、雲林、南投、新竹還有澎湖那有些縣市量是增加的,包含的主要是台南還有花蓮還有台中市所以這個三個因為他們剛地有遇到一些狀況特別是粉化爐或是各方面還沒有完全上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2038.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2064.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那另外一個呢是我們的裸露的垃圾的廠大概原來是53個現在是變成33個這個大概增加了10個廠啦但是我們減少了20個廠我們會覺得說這個量我們希望在未來一年當中應該可以加速完成雖然說我們落後了大概是20萬噸左右但是我相信我們有這個信心可以當然要很努力要很拚啦也希望大院給我們得多一點支持那全台灣呢這個產生垃圾的產生量 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2067.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2085.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
跟這個焚化廠處理的量的確是有缺口因為過去我們有整改還有量能不夠的一個情況現在這個缺口以這個台南市是最多然後包含了桃園市或是台中市都有顯著的缺口這個只是一個平均像台中市最近的這個缺口就 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2086.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2109.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這幾個月就相對的比較大所以目前的15個縣市大概都沒有佔據的缺口的問題大概7個縣市有這個垃圾量缺口的問題所以他只能說希望量能可以上來或是透過調度來做個處理目前的處理的規劃的方式到為什麼說我們到年底有信心這個是各縣市跟我們匯報出來我們討論出來的一個結果他包含了焚化 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2111.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2134.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
打包 暫時打包 暫時打包起來或是說復土掩埋起來所以這個量大概各個縣市都有提出他們的一個想法那我們也有經費來協助他們來協處這個事情雖然說我們的經費未來這樣的一個多元垃圾處理方案可能就沒有那麼的多但是目前按照這個規劃的方案到年底預算上是沒有問題的那另外一個是我們在今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2135.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2150.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
由於今年的秋天非常的熱有史以來75年來最熱的秋天又很這個乾燥又不下雨的日數又特別的多所以就造成說我們有很多的掩埋場甚至台南的後壁的烏樹林造成這個大火 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2150.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2178.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這個大火引發了委員會有很多的委員對這個關心那事實上也謝謝委員的一些提議跟建議所以我們也發現我們台灣過去對於這個大型災害的垃圾堆置的確是就是盡量堆因為我們過去都沒有考慮到這樣的方式各縣市也沒有這樣的一個土地讓可以暫時堆所以每一個都臨時暫時所以本部已經邀請專家學者我們研議了一個方案同時我們也派同仁到日本去實際上跟他們的專家去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2179.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2195.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那預計呢我們二月底我們就會對外來發布然後也會找各式各樣的大家來能夠提供更多的意見因為這個也需要地方政府來支持因為這個過去的這個用地來說的話可能都要蓋大樓蓋新的建設沒有人要蓋這個站置的用地喔所以這個部分我們會來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2196.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2224.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
第二個呢我們也會跨單位環保單位跟消防單位來合作因為烏樹林這個大火齁其實我到現場去了兩次要救是非常困難的只能透過傳統的方式不斷地灑水不斷地挖讓它降溫因為裡面的溫度四五百度齁基本上都是可能有人命的救消防人員的這個生命的安全的問題所以我們希望有沒有更好的方式來針對大型的火災能夠來救火這個要大家來努力我們也是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2224.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2243.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
明年的四五月會來開這個會那我們也會找專家特別來先研究這樣的一個內容那另外一個呢是大家最關心的事業廢棄物這個經濟部是主管事業廢棄物的處理那目前大概一年1700多萬噸那目前呢要處理的量大概是200多萬噸是可燃性的事業廢棄物大概是244.5萬噸現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2246.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2263.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
多195萬噸是進到公有焚化爐其他的部分包含了焚化民營的焚化還有SRF是36.7萬噸還有0.7萬度是暫存所以基本上的我們預估未來的量應該是可以到達平衡的不過呢其實各位可以看得出來因為我的焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2264.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2292.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
封阿魯如果是沒有採取這個ROT或是RTO的話其實它就會造成地方的財政的很大的一個壓力所以目前大概都是公民會委外民營的方式民營可能會燒一點這個失業廢棄物來能夠獲取平衡但是如果說這個東西變成是地方政府的支出的話那會非常的大目前的大多數都採用這樣的說法所以兼收家務垃圾跟可燃一般失業廢棄物目前是台灣現在或是國際上必要的營運的一個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2294.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2321.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
大家最關心的SRF去年我們本人上任之後其實針對這個問題也感謝大家給我們很多的批評指教那現在呢經過我們很努力的一家一家的清查輔導現在呢也跟各位報告因為經過我的白皮書之後這個SRF已經相對的透明公開治理而且朝向一個正面的發展所以目前來看的話這個已經逐步的上軌道當然我認為還是有進步的空間我們會努力來做目前的量能稍微平衡而且他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2321.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2338.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
稍微有一點下降量有一點下降但是以這個長遠來看的話其實SRF如果說在這個管理處理的好它就是一個資源回收的資源循環的一種方式我們還是鼓勵事業廢棄物能夠多採行SRF甚至我們也鼓勵一些SRF的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2339.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2356.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
能夠加嚴主動更加嚴比一般的我們現在的標準更加嚴的一個做法能夠來管控各種的風險目前呢我們都有比照分化爐一樣的一個標準來推動那未來呢也可能會再更加嚴所以目前來看的話整個管理的情形品質包含的供率 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2356.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2383.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
淨熱值都有顯著的一個改善所以各位我們過去台灣造成SRF的爭議現在可以說是告一段落了但是我相信我們還有努力的空間那最重要的是說我們的垃圾不是只有這種所謂的廢棄物而已還有營建土石方營建土石方為兩種營建土石方跟營建剩餘土石方還有營建廢棄物目前我們台灣的產生的量是4000多萬方非常的大量 非常大量可是呢 土質廠嚴重不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2384.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2409.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為這個在各個都會地區縣市地方隨著人口的增加都會變設為零幣設施然後另外一個加上區域的不平衡很多的縣市都是往別的縣市去偷盜亂送的所以產生出我們過去這麼多年這是台灣長期以來的一個問題所以我們跟跨部會包含了環境部內政部還有經濟部都有很努力的在弄我們大概發現三個漏洞一個漏洞是 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2411.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2427.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
容易混在一起被掩埋第二個是它運送的時候土石方沒有GPS第三個去化的點沒有追蹤到所以我們後來把這個流向重新再跨部會針對營建工程 拆除工程 裝修工程我們設計了土石方的交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2429.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2453.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
結合建管的程序工地的分類然後把這個營建土石房跟廢棄物透過土質廠混合物的分類廠跟廢棄物的掩埋廠去做更好的最後的一個使用也就是說源頭我們確定好我們就可以來來管理做這個事情那現在呢其實我們在今年的時候跨行政院也提出了一個這個方案也跟各位委員報告這個是我們過去台灣幾十年來幾十年這個問題不是這十年來出這個問題是台灣從一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2457.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2473.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
有這個營建都更都從來沒有面對這個問題的現象那我們終於提出了一個跨政府的一個方案所以我們目前包含了環境部主導廢棄物的管理方案跟內政部主導的營建剩餘土石方的處理方案我們也跟各地方政府也建構這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2475.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2499.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那目前有四個方向一個是去化的量能要增加第二個管理的強度包含了這個所謂的GPS土方的電子連單還有智慧圍籬等於是說所有的這個有人想要做壞事的話都很容易被抓到然後第四個就是修法的一個作業我會很簡單的跟大家說明清楚第一個呢是我們去化量經由那個內政部還有交通部等等我們跨部位 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2500.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2519.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
等於是說我們預估去化量目前盤點的量各個縣市加起來可以由一萬五千多萬方的量那這個就需要我們未來逐步的去開發如果這個開發的量夠的話去化就有機會那就可以減少這樣的一個問題所以我們要拓增它的去化的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2520.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2548.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第二個是我們鼓勵營建工地要現場的分類過去就直接打一打就變成一個廢棄物了可是我們最近也感謝衛福部防疫中心CDC的新建工程他完全拆得非常的細非常的細大概有最後大概只有廢棄物值剩下20-30%左右所以基本上全回收變成下一個新的房子這個就是城市採礦這個是我們目前會大力的鼓勵的一個方式那這個是在我們本部的循環再設計中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2549.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2577.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
有一個營建循環再設計展也歡迎各位委員大家可以去參觀這個裡面就有這樣的一個案例讓大家可以清楚我們會積極的鼓勵這樣的案例越來越多那另外一個呢是智慧圍籬齁因為其實很多的這個挖的亂挖亂到其實都是覺得抓不到但是目前呢我們的確測試了幾個智慧圍籬的方式但是現在還沒有全面裝我們認為這是一個有效的方式尤其是我們規劃的一個方式總共要投入23.5億的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2579.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2591.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那這個呢是有機會可以很快速的抓到不會像現在到了之後在事後的再做一個處理那另外一個呢這個有什麼用呢因為本部呢其實從升格以來這兩年我們跟檢警環調合作我們總共破壞了117件起訴了11000多人然後總共大概41億齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2599.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2622.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
當然我所知道的是當然這裡面只有一部分而已還很多犯罪人還是繼續在做但是呢我們這樣的一個決心是非常的堅定的也請各位委員給我們很大力的支持當然這個是也會承受很多這個不必要的壓力我們會努力挺下去也希望委員可以支持我們第二個呢是智慧圍籬呢是中央跟地方一起合作我們中央會建1400個地方另外一個設施有800處所以未來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2624.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2651.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
包含了這個只要偷盜亂盜它的這個GPS或是我們會結合CCTV一起來那會中央跟地方一起來打擊這種環保犯罪當然這個預算我剛才講過其實今年我們編列了5億多當然這個部分是屬於新增的預算到目前的一個情況明年1月1號還是沒辦法執行所以還請大院給我們多支持這個未來預算如果審定的話我們可以早一點來做這個事情那另外一個呢我們雙法的推動進度其實我們從5月預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2653.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2668.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
10月23就送行政院審查那目前呢已經接近完成的一個階段我們希望趕快的能夠院內最後通過趕快送到立法院來審議也拜託委員要給我們支持最主要是這個是一個棍子一個羅橫我過去那麼多年我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2669.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2695.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
曾經兩法合一現在我們兩法拆開來一個是棍子一個胡蘿蔔一邊是全循環的管理一個就是加重刑罰或生產者的責任甚至到如果亂倒到農地會加50%的刑責還罰金所以這個部分是我們一起我們的堅定的態度那另外一個是很重要的其實我們後面的那個都是事後的管理源頭的減量的行動才是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2695.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2715.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以我們也發現說其實我們國人對這樣的支持本部做了一些民調發現國人對源頭減量是支持的但是要做就會不一樣的意見例如說我們旅宿業的減量大家會覺得跟我習慣不一樣很麻煩等等等等我們認為這個是需要一個建立一個文化跟制度制度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2716.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2745.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個包含了網購外送業者的激增也是讓我們的垃圾量激增的很大的一個原因所以我們需要制度化的改變那我知道大院也針對外送平台進行一些處理也拜託大院給我們支持也通過法規上面能夠限制他們能夠不要製造那麼多的垃圾同時透過循環的方式來做處理第二個是文化的素養這個是最困難的地方以建國花市為例我大概在年初的時候發現雖然大家都很愛花草可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2746.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2771.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
願意自己帶這個塑膠袋的人大概只有100個只有1.5個人所以大多數是用又大又超大型的巨型的塑膠袋去買花這個是一個很大的一個諷刺啦那我們過去推的那麼簡碩其實一個花市這個全亞洲最大的一個花市竟然是這麼的不環保所以我們就下定決心我們要以這個改造那個建國的花市為一個目標目前呢我們每個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2772.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2791.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
六日都有人在那個地方一步一步的改變現在大概是有大概一成左右人去做這樣的東西而且我們獲得企業、學校、環團一起來做當然我必須說我還需要更多的人手一起來協助所以委員如果有機會的話可以歡迎一起來我們大家都可以努力做一點就可以改變很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2792.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2809.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那目前呢這個民眾開始知道我們做這個事之後大概已經顯著提升大概10%左右願意自己帶環保帶那我們現場也有提供各種的環保帶甚至讓大家家裡不用的主動拿出來所以這個呢還有待提升啦還真的還需要大家一起努力等於是攤商減碩 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2810.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2832.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
目前的攤商九成支持支持我們特別去掛出來我如果各位有計畫會的話可以去看但是我也必須承認民眾嘴巴講做很難所以我們一定要一步一步的我還要花一年的時間那個地方改造成功我就有底氣去做各式各樣的改變所以也請大院給我們支持那最後呢也跟各位報告我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2833.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2846.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
還是承諾115年底妥善解決垃圾裸露的處置的堆置第二個呢我們一定緩解警調結盟這個是我們的決心我們不會懼怕任何破壞環境的人那個就是一種罪我們會堅定的來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2848.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2869.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
不管藍綠白全部移送法辦這是我們的態度第三個呢這個雙法能夠重新建置是最重要的而且呢他會把廢棄物當成資源看待也就是說希望我們在明年這個時候來貴院報告的時候我們可以說我們不是處理垃圾山是廢棄物是資源怎麼樣做更好的一個使用我們徹底來改善垃圾的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2870.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2888.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那最重要的是也請大院給我們115年度新增的預算可以給我們一些支持我們會啟動圍籬跟營建平台因為營建平台也需要我們來協助地方那個都屬於一個新增的計畫我們早一點做 早一點處理就可以完成環境治理的一個拼圖感謝 謝謝好 謝謝彭部長報告那請經濟部代表報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2905.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2923.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
主席各位委員那接下來的話就由經濟部這邊來報告有關於工業廢棄物的這個去化的這個情形那根據估計這個工業的廢棄物它的這個每這個113年的這個產生量大概是1711萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2927.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2944.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那這個業者依據這個工業廢棄物然後再去做廢棄物的再利用到目前為止統計已經達到1452萬公噸也就是說在所有的工業廢棄物裡面大概是八成五都已經來做這個再利用的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2946.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2961.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
根據廢棄物再利用的管理辦法目前大概有三種工業廢棄物的處理方式分別是自行再利用、公告再利用以及許可再利用有三種 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2962.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2991.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那所謂自行再利用的話就是工業廢棄物在廠區內再作為這個燃料或重新再返回製程的使用那這個大概我們估計每年的這個使用量大概是195萬公噸那第二種叫做公告再利用公告再利用目前本部有規範的有52項這個公告再利用的這個方式例如說像這個煤灰可以作為這個水泥或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2991.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2993.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
一般混凝土的這個原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2994.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3020.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那淨水的污泥可以用來產製紅磚等等這樣的一種公告再利用的方式那經統計這樣每年的處理的量大概是1144.3萬的公噸那第三種的話就是說在這個公告再利用沒有規範的範圍之內的那本部在個案來予以核准的這種方式例如說像半導體業的這個佛化 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3023.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3033.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
蓋的污泥就可以用來作為這個人工的飲食作為鋼鐵業的鑄完劑的使用等等的這樣的一種用途經統計這每年的使用量大概是112.7萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3036.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3066.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那本部对于这个再利用的这个处理一定会采取严格的这个查核的措施包括它的生产它的使用的记录以及最终地点的这样的一个追踪等等如果有违反规定那我们就会另起停止收受废弃物最重的话我们也会来废止再利用的许可并通知环保机关来进行查处每年查核的这个加次在360家以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3067.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3077.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
除此之外,本部也推動能資源的整合目的就是希望透過區域,廢棄物可以當成另外一個工廠的資源使用到目前為止,我們推動了29個產業園區進行上下游之間的能資源整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3091.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3120.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
鏈結量達到546萬公噸也就是說潛在的就減少了546萬公噸的這個工廠廢棄物那很重要的一個產出的項目就是所謂的再生力量這些無機的這些廢棄物產生了這些再生的這些力量本部也特別的針對再生力量的去化進行了這些推廣例如說這些再生力量可以用於道路 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3122.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3140.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這樣的一個瀝青的鋪面或者是管溝回填的時候可以去這個來穩定的去去化爐渣那目前為止我們最高最高已經可以替代這原生的這個砂石百分之百都可以採用這個再生力量來取代 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3141.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3156.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那未來本部會來持續的來精進相關的這個循環這個材料的這個加值以及這個循環體系的一個韌性來加速來去化這些相關的這個事業的廢棄物那最後一個結語我們從91年當時我們的這個事業廢棄物的一個去化是有56%作為這個再利用的這個用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3167.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3181.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
到目前為止已經有達到85%了所以盡量能夠去減少這個事業廢棄物沒有辦法回到這個在利用的這樣一個途徑那當然最源頭的怎麼樣能夠去讓事業輔導他能夠採用綠色的設計或者是源頭的減量來減少這個事業廢棄物的發生這個我們會持續的來予輔導以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3191.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3213.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好謝謝邱署長有關本次會議各項書面資料經歷列入記錄刊登公報現在開始開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請上會前提出預期不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3214.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3224.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3237.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3241.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
部長2027年就要全面禁止廚餘養豬了如果你現在沒辦法防止邊境或是海關來完全杜絕可能進入還有病毒的肉品也許現在這是唯一的方法我在這裡想要請教部長就是說這個禁止廚餘養豬您禁的是家戶廚餘還是也包含的事業廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3258.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3270.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
目前未來是全禁那當然有一些植物性的那個例如說像有些生產的事業它產生的這個植物性的渣是還是可以用的好那請部長看一下這張圖那我這樣問的理由是因為全國每天除以產生是2115噸是家戶的593噸加上養豬外的其他利用除以791再加上事業731噸但是2026年底明年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3288.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3296.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個環境部的總設施量才有1720噸也就是說在過一整年之後才可能達到2119噸那麼是否這個2027年累積的所有的廚餘還有多的395噸廚餘就必須靠焚化跟掩埋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3307.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3320.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那但是現在這個政府這個部分這個焚化跟掩埋還是量能不足你現在的數字是284那我估計每天還多了這個100萬噸100噸對不起100噸那你要怎麼處理呢能夠繼續燒嗎有辦法繼續燒嗎好 鮑委員那個我們其實針對這個問題焚化爐到底能不能燒像日本的江戶廚餘是全部到焚化爐燒的那我們其實目前有經過專家評估過如果處理妥當大概最多就10% |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3335.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3338.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這是你們的報告你是說你只有284那現在我算一算就是還不夠嘛所以一定還有這個沒有辦法處理的那我為什麼在意這個焚化跟掩埋呢因為焚化會有大躍興的疑慮我之前質詢你你有說廚餘只要水瀝乾就不會有這個大躍興問題但每個地方政府真的都做得到嗎事實上不是如此因為台中市上禮拜才開始買這個租用這個廚餘脫水機 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3362.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3365.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
去除水分表示說之前沒有辦法完全脫乾其他地方當然也一樣這是第一個有關這個焚化的部分第二個掩埋還有高風險因為掩埋現在都在郊外地區那還是可能有野生動物如果你沒有做好防護的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3381.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3395.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
也是都要去翻動啊那翻動他就可能繼續傳播那個病毒這也是這個過去也是民進黨從上到下在攻擊台東市政府的一個說法嘛那我們看到西班牙這一次的那個豬瘟這個爆發那他的部長加薩隆尼亞說可能是某頭野豬誤食自國外這個吸入然後這個污染的這個食物然後引發後續的傳播所以部長您承諾的每個月都會監測焚化爐的這個廚餘的代澳鑫變化量這個措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3411.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3425.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
會持續多久?第一個是野豬的部分因為有些縣市還是有掩埋那這個部分現在全面加裝電網像台中那個廠就有電網等於是豬去會被電到不會讓他進去第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3427.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3453.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那你還有這個在測量你承諾的這個嗎我其實是說最近的這一次要他們因為一年的每一個焚化爐要測兩次我那時候是說的是說未來這一個月要他們再多測一次一個月一年兩次太少了吧對我們會評估因為也不知道委員那個一次也要花20萬所以基本上我們會再評估說到底會加測目前我們現在有全面的都叫他們量總共有那個爐子大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3455.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3474.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
幾個四五十個吧那目前呢量的結果我們看到一些結果甚至他因為這個時候要進廚餘所以大家比較小心的去燒所以目前呢有幾個縣市他的廚餘的大腰心的量比平均值還要低很多我在剛剛你聽你說你覺得用電網就可以全面阻擋這個可能這個也是動物去翻洞那個掩埋場的這個部分嗎對目前這個是農業部的那個動保處你會去電視做檢查嗎這個方法看有效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3480.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3483.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這個是他們給我們一些建議避免野豬能夠去翻冬C月豬隻禁運禁載嘛那農業部有說會擴大這個積壓額的供應量但事實上屠宰量受影響為什麼因為過去拿來當廚餘養豬的動物性肺渣下腳料也就是雞爪等等因為沒有辦法拿去餵豬了所以影響屠宰量 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3501.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3503.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那目前有報導指出未來禁止全面處於養豬的積壓額等這些禽類的下繳料要額外有清運處理的話每隻雞至少會漲價10塊錢以上請問農業部你有跟農業部討論過這件事嗎你可以避免嗎因為物價膨脹大家都有感那你要繼續讓這些積壓額等繼續漲價嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3525.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3532.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
包委員這個的處理它的去化是農業部他們有一個化製廠在處理不是我們這邊來最後處理你們要關心就是說因為要處理然後就是變成說你這個費用是上漲的部長請你繼續看這張圖片12月5號環境部的記者會上把家戶處理就是小吃攤公寓大樓等處理歸類為不可養豬這個OK |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3549.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3554.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那現在遇到的問題是這個環境部在簡報上規範分流竟然是讓公寓大樓的廚藝是交由已清業者來處理那麼請問原本跟這個公寓大樓簽約的那個秉清業者呢只要是合法清除業就是可以部長現在的問題就是說你禁止這個養豬之後那但我先告訴你秉清業者他成本增加很多為什麼因為他現在跟簽約的價格他沒有辦法他會賠錢而且他需要排隊進場 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3578.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3598.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
他排隊等一下我跟你講排隊三四小時他如果進不了場他還必須找個地方暫時這個堆置所以他們就跟這個社區大樓說他們沒有辦法去做了因為你的報告就寫你看你這張圖公寓大樓是要已清啊所以他們就把這個當個藉口他們不做了那如果這個公寓大樓又轉到已清去已清說他們沒有辦法接新客戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3599.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3613.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
好那所以現在不是以著社區我現在已經現在很多社區的這個陳情了所以你這個分流從頭到尾都沒有寫秉清那如果真的秉清可以你就把它放上去啊你沒有放上去結果部長你知道放在什麼地方嗎部長非常可笑你看下一頁常見問答那這個重要的問題你寫就值得 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3622.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3632.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
可是他們問秉清不可以嗎然後你們回答就是說只要合法機構都可以所以甲乙秉清都能夠再廚餘這個地方不是澄清地方這個地方是這個民眾的問答你把這個重要問題放在這個地方而且你那寫話這個寫東西很離譜都能再廚餘你沒有說再廚餘去焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3645.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3664.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那現在就是這樣部長如果真的是如你說的都可以合法業者都可以因為每個公寓道還能夠簽約的對象等等是有限的啊那這個情況下是不是這樣子環境部你要嘛就是行文給這個這個清運業者啊不然就是折成地方政府這個行文給地方人說是可以的不要讓這個秉慶業者拿這個你們的簡報當藉口說他不做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3668.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3679.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好 謝謝委員 建議這個部分我們上禮拜有兩次跟地方環保局有開過會那這個也做了一個修正今天就會發布出去你要修正嗎 你看這麼重要的問題你在簡報上是指定了已清這個是一個嚴重的錯誤那部長現在團散跟餐飲業面臨很大的壓力我先告訴你校園的團散發生什麼事因為他們為了排隊進這個焚化廠我剛剛講的每個要多花三到四小時那如果沒辦法進場要自己找地方放 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3694.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3700.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那除了這個時間成本他回收作為混亂之外有些業者因為調不到車您知道嗎甚至以營養午餐的餐車再廚餘這種食安的疑慮都跑出來了你這個勢必要說小朋友的這個餐食的值餘量啊餐車可以再廚餘嗎因為他沒辦法了因為他等不到他進不去啊他排不到隊啊所以不等這個營養廚餘這個部分請你要務必注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3722.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3742.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個不得了 這個是跟食安市是違背的也跟委員報告我們上禮拜針對這個議題也請那個陳理事長跟我們各縣市環保局調那其實各縣市我在這邊都有報表哪個縣市有壓力的我們都知道陳理事長也有另外一個問題我先請教你原來廚餘處理有補貼你是不是要終止還是延長辦理基本上這個是到今年年底因為我們現在是中央應變中心還在開設當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3744.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3762.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
不補貼OK了 不過就是委託方他成本就增加這成本將會帶動什麼大概部長你心裡有數你剛剛講說陳理事長就餐食食品公會的全聯會理事長他的公司就是這樣他說以輕的報價是每公噸一萬三到一萬四可是你們環境部預期的是八千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3763.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3784.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
高差很大啊那這麼多的這個費用那你怎麼處理到最後你不要瘦了小孩子的這個營養餐啊營養午餐啊增加了國人負擔包委員我也請大家想一件事情就是說我們的所有廚餘喔就是所有的這個團散公餐有三成變的廚餘這個是我們是不是可以有更好改善的空間那第二個呢是這個的費用會處理我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3786.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3808.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
其實我們上禮拜也有跟陳理事長也有到我們的群組跟差很大 兩個人數字差很大基本上這個不是全台灣都這樣就是有些縣市它的確會遇到一些短時間的一個陣痛部長你還在處理就對了各縣市都在處理當中當廚餘沒有去處 沒有去的地方然後它的輕運成本又提高你知道結果就是會有很多跟垃圾山一樣嘛 棄置廚餘嘛 就開始出現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3809.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3824.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
基本上任何的製造的垃圾就有一定的成本然後任何的餐廳它本身的垃圾也都說過已經在清除了部長那我在這裡最後談一個也是垃圾引起的問題台南市烏樹林廢棄物站製廠的事它總共燒了十幾天那天你跟我說明天會熄火後來我想想說已經燒得差不多了吧那當然你大概預期要熄火了那我向政事就是環境部要面對這次火災造成的嚴重污染問題請你看畫面你一邊看那我一邊講 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3837.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3858.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
整個站區長的周圍全部農地也有農民在工作那土地或這個地下水都可能有潛在的代澳新跟多路聯本請問部長環境部預計如何監測代澳新跟多路聯本多久一次這個部分那個台南市環保局他們已經在做了那我們也會要求他們把資料帶給我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3859.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3868.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
環保局很有問題等一下我再繼續跟您談就是說你要多久驗一次您覺得要多久驗一次你看到旁邊都是農地啊還有人在耕地然後燒了一塌糊塗燒了十幾天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3870.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3892.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個部分我們會再跟他們做確認因為這個其實上禮拜很努力在第二個問題如果驗出來了你怎麼賠償農民還是要等他們自己去找國賠基本上我們有跟台南市環保局在討論這個事那他們也告訴說他們未來的規劃包含良策等等然後跟地方的在溝通部長還有你現在燒完的我一步一步來燒完的那個灰渣跟廢水你要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3893.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3914.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
呃基本上那個現在我們都有補原來這個就有一定的補助的經費在處理這塊這塊的廢棄物因為台南市政府拿了3.4億的廢棄物處理但那是颱風之後結果這個事情就是台台南市環保局他找的地他跟國軍這個借用的地對無償借用的地然後現在超出火了他們不負責所以我上次就問你說那台南市環保局要不要開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3915.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3927.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
要不要開罰 你叫他自己管 就叫他罰自己 你要出面啊這個部分他如果是最後的這個火災 他台南市政府有責任的話他們就會自己罰自己 他這個區長他挑的 他拿了政府的補助費3.4億 然後他處理結果出事了 他沒有責任嗎 不要告訴我行政機關沒有責任喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3936.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3951.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
他們等於是說到底失火的原因他不自己放火就沒事嗎不會自己放火啦但是他自己如果說違反了法令他自己要罰自己這個是明確的那另外一個你確定嗎他要自己罰自己當然這個因為他地方的開罰是他們自己我任何協調會記者他都不出現喔好那我要求說這個非常清楚上次有一個那個他們還回答我說要證明有空氣污染請問燒了十幾天還要證明有空氣污染嗎所以部長我要知道台南市環保局什麼時候開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3965.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3988.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
罰多少錢然後他提出清運計劃沒有這個是地方的事務但是謝謝委員給我的建議但是你是長官啊我會去了解他們的狀況你敢辦 請問你台南到底有縮小勢力在保護他部長你敢辦台南市環保局嗎這已經太多累積這個是慣犯累犯了報告委員全台灣的只要有犯罪的都是我們會處理你說的 你剛剛報告說藍綠白都辦喔那台南市環保局請你盯著他從來不面對民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3993.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4007.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
台南市政府是面對台南市議會不是對立法院但是你可以去管啊你身為環境部啊台南市環保局如果做得不當你是否要去處理呢這個我們會努力去跟他們溝通因為他們的監管單位是台南市議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4008.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4034.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
部長你簡直說你在投降嗎?沒有沒有,不能這樣說,每個都有分工都有權責這件事太清楚了,他拿了3.4億的行政費用然後他去找了一塊地,還無償的,我問過國軍無償以後,然後這個堆配的很高,堆很高然後堆到很邊邊,然後非常危險然後居民之前就來告訴說會起火燃燒,我有告訴過你然後真的燃燒了,然後現在你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4034.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4054.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
他們沒有辦法你只是監督他去處理嗎你這樣對得起台南市民嗎台南市民是最挺民進黨的你這樣對待他們對嗎我們會密切的去要求他正合的監測報告最後的罰則我們會來處理你報告的時候是非常清楚我希望你要有骨氣要有承擔的勇氣謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言請林月琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4069.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4071.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
主席麻煩我們的環境部部長請彭部長議員好部長早今天我要給你一個很大的肯定你在核電重啟環評的這一題上被媒體說管太多了可是我覺得你管得剛剛好因為核能安全跟環境是跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4089.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4117.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
跟世代影響的一個議題沒有人沒有任何部會都能夠去當局外人部長 三個月在野黨把設置後不會產生污染物質的光電板在環評法直接加嚴那以同一套的對環境影響更為嚴謹的標準來看的話那面對1984年開始運轉40年在國家公園周邊的河山要重啟的話還有核廢料的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4118.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4119.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我相信環評應該要更嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4122.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4149.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
如果依據光電板現在設置環評的邏輯的話在野黨應該要支持所以我請部長講清楚超過年限已除役的核電廠要重設環境部的立場是什麼那輻射影響評估是核安會的責任但影響環境的專業在你這邊而且核能會的主委也說依法應由台電來請環境部評估那部長環境部能提供什麼樣專業建議台電有沒有找你開會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4150.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4172.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
包委員這個台電是目的事業機關機關我不用找他的開會我是直接跟核安會的主委我們有通過電話未來的分工那目前我們也跟委員報告這個還要延伸因為他們是核輻射的一個專業那對環境影響是我們這邊的專業所以我們現在有在討論說未來要如何分工要來如何處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4172.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4189.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那目前因為這個他的許可最重要是他他要必須要負擔更多的責任這樣好部長你先請劉博先請經濟部代表協助我釐清一則新聞我也知道你今天事實上是不是來次長也是不是來部長來那個署長可是還是要來講這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4191.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4201.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為媒體已經報導出來說期待核電加速運轉的民間團體轉述 轉述你經濟部經濟部認為核電廠再運轉只是原有機組的安檢換修不設計環評那我想請經濟部應該自己要去對媒體或者是今天在這邊講清楚啊超過40年原始設計的核電廠廚藝再運轉真的只有安檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4216.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4245.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
換修而已嗎這已經是登在媒體上經濟部自己有沒有去看要去回應如果他講錯的不對的你們要不要回應第二個問題是部分民間團體說經濟部把除以後再啟用要不要環評類比火力發電廠研議我就要問火力會產生污染可是會產生核廢料嗎不會嘛那有沒有核廢料風險評估的災害規模應該差很多吧你們認為可以直接類比的理由是什麼不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4245.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4262.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是說怎麼可以去類比我們的火力發變這兩種不太同的一個等級另外除以後再運轉法律上到底算不算直接演繹是不是涉及重新授權你們要說明我會這樣問是因為我看到經濟部我們新修訂的核管法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4264.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4284.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
新修訂的核管法及其辦法展開核一核二核三現況的一個評估那核電廠除役後要再啟動更複雜了那安檢應該只是第一步所以我要問最後一句經濟部現在經濟部是要等核安會提出完整需求才要來做後續的要不要環評的一個評估嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4285.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4304.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我相信你現在沒辦法回答請你們帶回去經濟部如果媒體報導的錯誤民間訴說的是錯誤為什麼不回應反正今天想讓你們在這邊回應清楚請你們要嘛對媒體會另外一個針對我剛剛問的這幾題那麻煩回覆到我們辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4306.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4325.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我覺得如果不正確的真的都要回應報告委員因為那個民團他不是很懂得環評的定義啦那他用這樣的一個比喻是不對的是可是為什麼他說他轉述經濟部那經濟部為什麼都沒有回應呢所以我才想說今天有這個機會讓經濟部要做好好的回應那麻煩我們的署長請回謝謝部長賴總統的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4335.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4351.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
也就是核能的三個核心安全無虞核廢料有解社會共識我認為你最近的發言就是在落實這三個核心因為現實是核二甘思的儲存潮要建制延拓了十年現在到現在還卡著 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4352.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4375.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
台灣現在的制度很魔幻要廚藝的核電廠要還平再多用20年的反而不用光電只要敏感區位就要還平那麼核三要再運轉的話不能只是修法說那我要延長20年就好了沒有制度配套也不能被說成說只是行政單位的安檢換修就好我認為法規未盡之處的話反而要更積極作為所以部長請你先做簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4382.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4408.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
從環境單位你是一個環境部的最大的核廢料到此時此刻有最終處置的解方嗎目前我所知道是有些國家是開始有但是很多國家還是用乾式儲存槽放在那個地方那這個議題呢我們現在環境部也在研議當中就是說也剛剛謝謝委員剛剛提到的就是說因為很多的國家的環境部是管 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4408.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4428.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
核能安全的後端的處理那我們環境部是沒有這樣的機構例如說日本的環境省他就連核安的部分也管他大概有一千多人在裡面韓國也管然後很多的國家有環評的是他的核安就在他的裡面你現在完全還沒有有一些環境可是現在要講核三 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4429.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4443.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以接著兩個重點第一從你主管的環評法來看的話對核電廠除役後再啟動研議把它理解為新的權力授予能源設施設置的重新授權是否合一 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4444.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4471.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們正在演繹因為從這個字面解釋我同意委員的觀點但是我們現在環評法因為環評法的確是把光電拉得非常的嚴可是對於這種新的對 反正是沒有啊對 所以這個其實產生了一些落差所以我們的確在演繹第二個民間團體的對法規疑問是核管法的第六條第四項說運轉執照換發準用第五條第一項也就是準用建廠審核的要件其中包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4472.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4480.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
環境保護跟生態保育的影響要合乎相關法律那照這個邏輯運轉執照換發準用的建廠執照的一個規定就應該提出經環境部認可的環評的相關資料部長如果這樣的法規解釋是否合宜那環境部要怎麼去規劃上訴的一個環評資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4493.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4521.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這個我也有想讀過的確我們是內部有討論說這樣的一個可能的問題然後比較各個國家因為我們沒有重新這個環評重啟要這個核能重啟要環評的一個經驗所以這個部分我們未來會跟核安會來討論說哪一個算是我們這邊的哪一個是他們那邊的所以最後我還是要強調你提出來的政策環評是建立社會共識不可少的一步讓意見能夠公開充分表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4522.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4542.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
核電重啟牽扯到風險不確定利益衝突還有世代正義的問題所以所有可能的影響跟真實的風險都必須要被評估被辯論被監督我希望提醒部長這一塊部長基隆這起廢油偷牌的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4543.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4560.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
已經影響到基隆民生用水我有兩個問題要請教第一個問題是報導說業者長期用廠內油污水分離把分離後的還有污染成分的無味透明的廢水偷排到基隆河 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4561.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4590.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
還對外招攬生意五年不罰所得超過五千萬請問部長既然是五位透明但有污染成分為什麼一直沒被偵測到這次是業者失誤才爆出來嗎你認為這個問題出在哪邊未來要怎麼去處理因為這個抽水的這個供水區域的上游區的管理是基隆市政府所以他們其實應該要平常要積極的對於供水可能的上游因為旁邊的那個工業區還蠻多的其實他們應該我們有請他們一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4591.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4612.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個強化這個稽查的頻率那這次有幾家他是自己排那這個是罪證確鑿被檢察官這個抓到所以這個的權責是基隆市政府可是為什麼偵查不到呢他竟然有污染成分而且事發地點就在淨水廠周邊所謂污染成分到底是什麼你們有沒有掌握他們的技術以及過去排放污水 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4613.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4635.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個污染的這個成分的這個東西對人體的危害是什麼有這個其實後來一開始有兩家被開罰因為他沒有在列管他並沒有來做申報所以已經被開罰了那這家是主要是後來我們透過一些跟檢察官那個細節我就不能對外說但是檢察官跟我們合作在一起有個平台就主動去偵查到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4636.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4656.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
可是部長這家是壘犯前次偷牌只罰5萬5這次是因為上新聞才準備重罰到千萬我問的是我們的裁罰的裁量怎麼會落差這麼的大你們去年去年底修正發布了違反水污染防治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4657.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4677.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那個罰還的額度跟裁罰基準也有點才記點的一個副表那很完備但也相對複雜請問部長從去年到現在環境部有沒有檢視各縣市是否依這套標準準則來做裁罰你們要怎麼去協助地方做那個裁量又怎麼樣去做後續的那個檢視啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4678.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4703.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好 包委員這個其實這裡面因為這次的水無法也要靠地方環保局在做所以因為我們剛過完那樣的東西未來我們會跟地方再去針對這個裁罰的量子因為全台灣不是只有基隆這個有風險還有很多地方所以這個我們會來我覺得部長不然就會變成上新聞兩千萬沒上新聞五萬五這不是制度該有的做法最後也請部長提供相關資料讓我們知道你們這一年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4704.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4719.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
怎麼去監督檢視各縣市是否用這個裁罰基準來做裁罰部長今年我們面對到的是天災人禍下的巨量的廢棄物的處置我很肯定你願意面對也在想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4720.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4742.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
但這幾個月我都聽到的答案幾乎都是一樣的 量能不足 招標不順所以只能先擺著 可是這不是解決 是拖著而已我先問進度跟時程 請部長直接回答 風災後的石棉屋跟太陽能板台中臨時處理的廚餘掩埋 目前進度到哪裡 能不能最終解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4743.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4767.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
太陽光電板沒有問題已經已經全面那石棉烏瓦呢石棉烏瓦已經都進到一個程序當中大概兩萬多台中臨時處理的那個廚餘掩埋呢廚餘掩埋它已經不進廚餘掩埋了它現在全部進去焚化那我最關心的還是花蓮光復鄉幾十萬噸的災後淤泥跟廢棄物現在難以篩分無法招標無力清潤 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4768.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4774.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
部長你們有沒有預估最糟的情況下對環境的衝擊是什麼到底要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4775.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4801.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個最重要是因為東部的這樣的業者處理的量能的確不足啦那我們現在雖然爭取到這個特別的條例的預算但是真的要去執行現在還沒有開始執行但是因為這個可能要跟地方來做合作那委員說到的問題我們現在正在面對當中所以現在我們也希望更好的業者能夠來協助來處理這個事情那請環境部把這幾項的處置的進度跟現況給我一個比較清楚的說明的資料第二步 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4802.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4822.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我要問制度面事業廢棄物進一般家用的垃圾粉化爐現在的垃圾的熱值提升那粉化爐老舊縣市調度困難最後還是垃圾堆著風險只會累積所以我要具體要求是說我們的源頭減量不能再用後端處理落差到22倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4823.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4836 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這是過往的平均的數字所以請問部長明年度就算預算能不能省還不確定的狀況底下但是你們編列源頭減量跟後端處理的經費比例是多少會不會改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4836.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4865.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
包委員其實他這樣的說法因為他不了解我們的政府的預算因為我們還有資源回收的一個費因為把那個算進去的話我們早就超過很多了啦所以這個部分我們可以再跟委員再做一個說明或者不然源頭不管之的話末端永遠燒不完那這題就麻煩你們到時候再給我相關的資料那我們也希望你整個的預算源頭的減量的配置跟經費配置都要給我好謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝林玉琴委員現在請廖偉祥召委諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4874.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4903.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
謝主席 請彭部長有請彭部長欸 趙偉豪稍等一下喔時間可不可以暫停一下 等一下檢報 好OK好 部長 首先先看第一張圖喔我想要請問一下你看這張圖 垃圾山你覺得很嚴重嗎這當然嚴重啊很嚴重喔對 對部長你知道這是哪裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4905.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4908.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這全世界都有很多這樣的地方好那下一頁部長剛剛這個確實不是我國的垃圾山 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4911.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4933.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
可是剛剛那個是印度的垃圾山可是你可以看到我們現在這張圖喔右邊的是竹東垃圾山更確切的說看起來像是一個垃圾瀑布看起來是不是有點相似看起來是不是很觸目驚心是是是吧那但是你們今年五月的時候說已經號稱說清理完畢喔但根據環保組織的實際勘察 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4935.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4958.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
下一頁發現他其實只是縮水了還沒有清理完那甚至污水還不斷的滲入到頭前溪的流域那新竹市跟竹北市約有60萬的居民的水源當中請問這部分部長是否了解有這個我也到現場看過那委員這個部分的話是不是請我們署長來說他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4960.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4975.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
鄉委員報告原來它確實有垃圾瀑布的現象它也是水源區所以竹東廠是我們第一個要解決的當時已經把所有的這些垃圾瀑布都完成清除之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4975.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5004.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那現在在右邊這張圖是它原來的這個掩埋場的部分那後來這一個部分我們有要求要完成復必完全清理完成完全復育啦復育完畢要復土對啊那現在呢現在是已經全部清完了嗎這個是要整理好之後復土然後再直升我的意思是說現在所有的垃圾現場已經沒有任何的垃圾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5005.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5022.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他應該是說他會完成護浴啦不會說完全沒有垃圾但是他在他的掩埋區裡面會有好的設備包含不透水布跟他的污水都會收到他左下角這污水處理廠來做妥善的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5023.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5052.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那原則上這個呼籲完畢之後那污水就很少會再生出了以上我想要問的事情是所以現場是你沒有說完全沒有垃圾是還是有垃圾的是的還是有垃圾現在還是有垃圾它是掩埋這個把它掩埋蓋過去對但是它的水不會再跑出去就是在那裡讓它讓它穩定化原則上一個掩埋場的穩定化大概要20年的時間那這20年的時間它的水不會再出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5052.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5067.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以你們現在相關的處置都已經確定好了都已經處置好了因為部長問這題就是因為你在去年上任的時候其實你對於垃圾山新百岳你也表達說很震驚那你承諾剛剛你的報告也有講到2026年底會全數解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5071.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5093.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這部分的目標有沒有改變?還是你是有信心提前解決?當然必須說我們原先希望年底要到40萬噸現在是變60因為今年的天災特別多所以我們目前呢我們也在跟我們的同仁確認過我說很挑戰啦但是我們還是有信心可以把它完成但是我說委員那個有透過掩埋打包方式能夠不要裸露的露出來這個是我們的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5095.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5115.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
因為部長你在執行承諾的時候其實你有設立了一個全國裸露堆製垃圾妥善處理監控平台是那貌似能夠讓民眾快速且及時了解進度喔但我們可以看一下這個圖喔你可以看到這個圖說的事情叫做到115年的6月你就會完全的歸零所以你可以提前半年達標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5117.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5145.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
而且你退一步來說這個撇除目標線不看其實你現在的實際進度實際進度也只有27%多你的實際跟目標曲線離非常的遠所以換句話說每個月大概要增加45%的目標比例這真的有辦法達到嗎還是說其實你這個頁面是拿出來供參考的樣板而已因為我剛才說過就是說原來我們希望是40例如說年底到40但是今年多了20 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5146.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5160.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以60幾所以這個部分我們現在要很努力啦所以部長就是因為看起來這個差距非常大但是你還是信誓旦旦覺得明年可以完成然後你做的這個網頁告訴大家的還是一樣到現在是110你們設定變成115年的6月就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5164.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5184.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
完成你們的目標那部長這個部分究竟是拿出來好看的還是你真的可以達到包委員我剛我的圖裡面有列出來哪些縣市是沒有做到的哪些縣市已經完成的部長這是你整個環境部隊的目標這個是我們把他的所有的資本把它加起來的確我們現在大概只有還有剩下60多萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5186.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5204.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
對嘛 那我就是問你說因為你照你們官方出來的圖你告訴本席的說是你給國人看到的叫做你115年6月可以完成嘛是那所以我剛剛不斷的在跟你確認這件事情你是可以提前完成嗎你本來說明年底嘛但是你的網路上面又說出又看到你是目標就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5205.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5222.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
明年的六月完成然後你的實際值又離得這麼遠本席很憂慮我很擔心你根本達不到啊包委員這個圖是我們跟這個地方政府協調當時我們希望是115年底但是取乎其喪得乎其從我們希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5232.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5246.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以你往前設定了半年半年那這個在去年已經把所有12億的經費都已經合下去那很多因為花包的關係它花包完成之後它的進度就會相當的快 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5247.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5263.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那今年我們還會大概1.2億再補助下去所以希望在115年底能夠完成所以部長你們這裡意思就是說你們確定可以明年6月完成啦因為你的網站出現是這樣嘛你說發包下去就可以完成喔那請部長信守承諾喔明年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5264.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5283.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
第一個我們把各個縣市的環保局局長都一起來我們來共同面對這個問題所以這個基本上是大家一起努力啦那我必須說有一些縣市我覺得目標跟實際要做到的真的是要一起來努力我也相信部長很用心但是你們看起來我看到這個曲線是非常憂心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5284.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5311.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以請你們一定要務實的如果你回答說你們可以做到那本席就在這裡反正記錄下來你們可以做到我們會努力我們會努力但是就是說現在當然我必須有一個條件明年拜託不要像今年這麼多的大型的天災多了20萬噸那個就壓力就來了所以這個基本上這個部分是需要需要也希望委員給我們多一點支持好部長請這個反正加油一起努力啊看到這樣子希望明年明年中的時候可以看到真正達標 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5312.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5328.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
是部長那我們也都知道如果不從源頭改善的話垃圾跟這些廢棄都很難處理啊那這也是部長的核心主張包含修法加嚴管理還有加重刑責的部分喔可是其實今天你也說到這個法其實很奇怪五月你送到行政院喔那 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5329.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5358.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
到底什麼時候會出來啊就是後來九月送到行政院後就沒有消息了你們預告完之後所以現在到底什麼時候會出來可不可以給本席一個時間包委員我剛才特別說我們大概十月多正式送行政院那也開了非常多次的會跨部會的去協調那目前的消息是即將我只能說即將即將到底是什麼時候快要了快要了快要了是一月初我是希望如果說拼一下年底或是說到一月初 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5358.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5381.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好所以希望年底你認為年底拼一下年底可以出來因為最晚一月初會出來對對對最晚最晚一月初啦目前目前我們的成果還不錯啦但是因為這個要行政院的決定因為部長今年截至12月4號為止全台已經累積至少24起類似垃圾掩埋場跟戰事場發生火警的狀況所以包含台南花蓮澎湖等地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5383.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5396.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那起火雖然你會說有氣候異常乾燥啦或者是大量廢棄物混合堆製導致發酵啊好然後背後其實主要的原因還是跟垃圾越堆越多嘛去化量能不足啊然後還有這個賞罰不足賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5399.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5421.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你說的蘿蔔跟棒子都還沒有上線啊所以你現在立法空方期越久本席越擔心這樣的事情就越拖越久會造成極大的危害好所以請部長趕快好不好請行政院趕快出來好好謝謝好那下一題我這裡這個部分要請這個我們國防部的軍備局跟國防採購室的傷情綜合處的代表上台好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5428.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5429.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
部長你可以先休息一下稍微好 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5442.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5459.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你好我想要問一下這個RDX這個炸藥是聯合國規範這個0072中class1.1D的高爆炸藥威力是TNT的1.5倍我想要請問一下國防部的代表知道這種高危險性的炸藥也是化學品 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5460.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5472.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以即便國防部開了這次的標案也必須要有專業且有經驗的承包商才可能完成那這一次的標案中為何要求僅要求廠商具備國際貿易業這種沒有毫無專門的這個門檻的一般資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5478.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5500.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那依照政府採購法第36條對於如此高風險的巨額採購為何沒有訂定需具備危險品運輸時機或者是擁有合格防爆倉儲的特定資格就讓一家室內裝修公司得標那國防部是不是認為處理高爆炸藥跟進口壁紙的專業度是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5502.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5524.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
報委員跟委員說明一下事實上我們在這訂定這個廠商的時候是我們是考量到了以往啊毀藥類的購案的投標廠商的資格啊是循網利啊訂定啊合法設立啊或登記的一個證明還有營業項目啊包含了國際貿易業跟納稅證明啊等三項的資格並啊確保廠商啊具有啊進出口啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5525.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5536.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
貨品供送的能力另外我們為了確保廠商的投標具有誠意的參標難道你們不會擔心他在運送的過程中造成任何的問題和危險嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5538.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5554.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
挖委員跟委員報告一下針對廠商得標貨我們會依據經濟部定班的貨品輸入的管理辦法規定啊辦理限制性的一個貨品的一個輸入的申請獲得進口啊我想請問一下這個廠商他有沒有有沒有具備這個危險品運輸的時機或是擁有合格的防爆倉儲 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5560.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5589.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
跟委員報一下事實上他們在運輸的過程中啊在陸上運輸的時候都會依據道路安全沒有你沒有回答我的問題啊他有沒有運輸的這種具備危險品運輸的時機或者是擁有合格防暴倉儲的特定資格他有沒有他有沒有這部分的資格或是曾經的這個時機包委員這個在審標的時候是並沒有在那個審標的那你們不覺得你們審標有問題嗎我跟你說啊好再來請交通部的代表你們剛剛說運輸嘛好交通部的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5604.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5627.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
委員好交通部代表跟國防部代表都在台上請問一下交通部的代表根據國際海運危險貨物的章程第一點三章 岸上處理人員是不是需要受過危險品的培訓然後另外是要問一下國防部的代表這個福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員報告委員 那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5632.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5657.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
在運輸方面來講的話在我們那個貨運廠還有那個傳播運送業這個接觸相關的危險品的這個貨品的時候他們都要有相關的證照對很好需要嘛對不對需要有相關證照謝謝交通部所以我問一下國防部的代表這個福邁公司內部是不是有持有相關證照的專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5660.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5678.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
如果沒有的話他們要如何判讀原廠的安全資料表那要怎麼確保在該批炸藥在海上運輸或港口裝卸的時候符合國際的隔離規範還是國防部覺得看到貨送到就好過程中的公共安全風險全由全民負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5679.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5704.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
報告委員 這個到時候廠商在交貨的時候我們的需求單位就是軍備局的第二領武廠他們會有一個火工專業的檢運人員來全程陪同那把這個東西運送到需求單位去所以這個廠商不需要符合這些東西之後國防部會幫忙處理他只要把貨運進來就好了然後所以任何一個國際貿易的代表只要這個公司符合國際貿易的資格他都可以標到這個表案 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5706.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5726.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
國防部外表跟你說目前我想同時間外交部貴交國防委員會這個他們也應該也會針對此事做檢討但是相信標案的爭議性的細節會有更深入的探討但本席在這裡是要針對這樣的做法會對於環境跟人民產生公共安全危險提出質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5726.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5753.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
尤其最近什麼貝魯特大爆炸天津大爆炸等等的案件陰間不遠我希望國防部不論基於什麼原因做這種不合理的操作不能夠放棄對於公共安全的重視否則你在那邊採購武器說要保護人民會不會就讓國人根本沒有為盟其利先受其害請你們回去我請那個環境部部長上台一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5757.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5761.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
部長這個RDX也是環三亞甲基三硝胺 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5762.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5791.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那它在美國國家環境保護局被列為C級的致癌物也就是強效的神經毒素它對於地下水的污染也極其嚴重那這一次的採購是由民間的室內裝修公司進口它也不是軍方直接運輸我想要請問一下化學署這批劇毒化學品進入台灣環境部有沒有掌握那它是不是有在我們毒性級關注的化學物質的列管名單中 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5794.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5814.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這裡跟委員報告,有關這個環山亞甲基酸硝胺目前不是我們環境部所列管的毒性極關注化學物質所以沒有的話,環境部是不是要長期放任這種軍用的毒物在民間隨意存放流竄而毫無監管呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5815.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5828.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個部分還是要由國防部因為其實在我們的一個獨管法的一個範疇裡面大概比較偏重的是管這些工業跟民生的相關的這一些的物質或者是這些物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5829.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5847.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好了 所以這個時候就發生問題了這時候就發生問題了如果RDX在入運的過程中發生這個翻覆啊 洩漏啊它的毒性會迅速穿透土壤污染 滴下水那請問你們有沒有需要去跟國防部溝通啊在運輸的過程中有沒有什麼通報機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5848.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5872.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
會告訴環境部然後如果針對這個RDX的洩漏處理有沒有標準作業流程那再者就是如果消防員不知道這是水溶性的毒物而且大量涉水的時候它會造成周邊的環境跟水源永久的污染請問誰要負責如果只能夠追蹤到追責到這個福邁公司的話這個公司的規模可以負個起完全負擔起這個賠償嗎本席剛剛問到現在就是這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5878.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5900.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
請問對兩位點頭你們覺得是不是應該去跟國防部溝通你們現在是不是沒有這個機制那個跟委員報告那如果真的是發生了這一些事情那當然其實相關政府部門相關的各個部會的通報的機制就會來啟動不會啊你現在就沒有啊因為他如果對啊你如果運輸的過程中如果他已經清倒你們都不知道他運輸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5901.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5919.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那發生的這個外洩難道他會這個那個當下趕快告訴你啟動嗎跟委員報告我剛剛說的是他不是目前讀管法的公告的對他現在不是嘛所以我才說因為不是所以如果現在不是你們又沒有去做這件事未來發生的這個狀況的話那你們要怎麼怎麼做管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5920.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5938.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
跟委員報告以目前的機制來講即便他不是在政府部門有這樣的災害在在發生的時候都會進行相關單位的這一些的通報所以其實大家彼此之間都會有這些資訊上面的一個一個大家的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5939.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5961.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好所以你的意思是說我剛剛說如果發生這個狀況現場消防員到現場他一定會知道他是水溶性的毒物然後就不大量涉水你可以確保這件事跟委員報告這個部分是這樣因為這個RDS我們有一個那個資訊中心化學物質的資訊中心這個資訊中心他通報之後就會立即的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5961.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5985.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
把這個物質的這些物性跟化性的資料都把它抓出來然後我們就會透過我們的相關的群組跟我們的系統去通報所以換句話說你認為這個部分的洩漏處理是有作業標準的有SOP的相關的化學物質的我們的諮詢後面的這一些的一個諮詢可是你剛剛沒有列管那個你說的那個部分那個中心還是會有管理到這個還會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5987.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6008.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
還是會有 今天有列管的情形是他有這個責任如果有我們有公告的話他有這個責任從源頭那運輸以及後面的這一些的一個去向全部都要在我們的法定的系統在我們環境部的法定系統裡面去做申報所以現在他這個有申報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6009.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6021.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這個沒有因為他不是我們的公告的老爺我要跟部長說其實根據毒物跟化學物質局發布RDX相關的宣導資料美國多個軍事基地都有收到RDX的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6021.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6044.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
污染 例如什麼朱利業軍事彈藥廠啊 它是經典案例那該廠呢 因為長期製造保含RDX內的彈藥導致周邊的土壤跟地下水嚴重污染那美國環保署也在1995年的5月把它列為超級基金廠只要進行整治耗時了13年才完全復育 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6045.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6061.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那既然這批原料將就是長期在這個可能台灣的國內的冰工廠使用環境部就應該要針對這個部分去做相關的配套包含著有沒有要去檢查說這個部如果儲存RDX附近 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6061.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6076.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
他周邊的地下水土壤是不是要進行這些的調查或是背景值的調查部長我要提醒你們的是這個事情好所以目前這個RDX主要被視為爆炸物是受經濟部的事業用的爆炸物的管理條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6078.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6092.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
或者是國防部的法規管理但是它的毒性特質完全符合要關注化學物質的定義所以這部分環境部已經公告數百種的關注化學物質但是對於RDX這種軍用的為主的物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6093.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6118.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
都被你們都會說那是屬於國防部的權責沒有納入民視的環保監控的體系裡面所以這其實是有問題的也有危險存在的對於民間請環境部長去做跨部會的溝通好嗎好謝謝委員我們這個我們來研議一下因為我也去了解一下美國環保署如何處理這個問題好我們來研議一下謝謝謝謝六位想加入的諮詢謝謝潘部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6128.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6130.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好 接下來請王月明委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6146.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6172.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
委員好部長好部長我們今天要討論那個垃圾處理的問題我們可以看到在台南的這個台江國家公園內的晨曦掩埋場光是今年就火燒了三次不只這樣子他在2021年的時候呢當地議員質詢的時候也說一年內至少火災兩三次每次都三天三夜燒不完那今年更是燒更久那這樣子的一個狀況就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6176.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6186.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
他的掩埋場然後又不當的這樣的一個存放或堆積太多然後變成火燒火燒之後變成空污這個真的是一個惡性循環喔那這樣的一個狀況目前環境部你們要怎麼去輔導跟管理因為光這一個城西掩埋場我覺得他也蠻離譜的他竟然就臨近這個台江國家公園了 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6201.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6216.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
甚至他應該算是在公園內啊這個全世界全世界有這種嗎國家公園內又是野脈場然後經常又火災然後不只地面汙染還空氣汙染這個你們有沒有專案好好去督導管理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6216.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6233.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 謝謝委員那晨曦其實因為台南的 我剛剛的我的簡報裡面都有特別提到台南的這個垃圾的產生量跟計畫量有一個很大的一個差距啦這個焚化爐量不足不過他們新的那個在晨曦附近新的這個預計近期應該幾個月之後有機會可以開始啟動那這個啟動之後應該就會開始疏解這個累積堆積的垃圾什麼時候啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6243.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6256.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
他因為測試的關係所以他在明年年中以後就會啟動明年年中才啟動嗎那他現在堆積如山還是現況嗎那像這樣子的一個垃圾山火災的情況你們要怎麼去因應呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6257.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6280.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是其實也不只是他 他其實是最矚目的因為看起來台南這個裸露的垃圾是全國第一高啊 堆的最多那其他地方也會有這一種 就是野脈場火災然後你報告裡面提到說你們已經有開會但是開會什麼時候要做呢你們要去研議那一個它的消防因應的策略在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6280.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6298.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
包委我們其實也有補助這個所謂的消防或是監控例如說紅外線然後這個消防涉水的一個設備看起來無效啊因為他的量實在太大而且他們這次台南因為風災之後他的大量的土製樹葉都在這邊沒有 2021年他就開始火燒了跟這次也沒有關係了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6298.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6321.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
其實這個已經很久了所以基本上第一個是未來我們如何再規範這個所謂的掩埋場或是佔置場它不能要如何去堆要如何放其實我們看到日本有一些限制不過這個是壓力會在於說我們台灣的土地沒有辦法像人家可以很那麼大的一個面積所以有辦法落實嗎其實是我們的土地面積而且我們的地小人口那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6322.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6331.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個就要大家的努力第一個是說我們希望是說日本的經驗我們是不是可以拿來用第二個是如何預防我們是不是有更好的消防的體系我也請我們同仁跟消防署聯繫針對這種掩埋場的事故如何救你們什麼時候才能研議出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6342.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6357.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
包括像日本的防災指引還有一旦事故的時候最快的時間最迅速的撲滅像這次台南真的太誇張了這個燒那麼久那我覺得對台南的人民真的不公平啊那個空污然後對他健康的危害時間為期太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6359.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6384.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
包委員那個台南那個基本上是堆的太多然後那個救火的方式我一直在問同仁說有沒有更新的方式來處理後來我們我去了之後協調說開了一個很多的水線三天內才把它鋪完所以基本上那個是一個很特別的案例那我們國內的能夠針對那樣的案例去救火都是只能傳統的一個方式所以第一個是我們現在會請我們這個化學署防管署跟消防署 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6384.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6396.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
提一個計畫到底找這些消防專業針對這種掩埋場大型的火災要怎麼救你們什麼時候要演繹出來我們希望是明年四五月的時候我們要開一個這個消防因為這個是消防專業跟垃圾處理專業兩個專業明年四五月才有開會但是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6402.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6420.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個所謂的掩埋場、戰事場的堆置的管理的指引什麼時候會出來現在內部已經出來了然後我們希望二月的時候什麼時候公布開始做我們希望二月底的時候二月底的時候可以公布這個縣市就要按照你的指引新的堆放就要按照你的指引的方式來推進我們希望二月底的時候可以來完成我覺得這個問題一定要處理因為台南市它的垃圾裸露17.1萬公噸全國第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6427.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6435.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
你可以看到他們自己在報告上面官方的都說 我都做得很好 我已經封閉附土綠化這報告是不是作假報告啊結果現場都是垃圾堆積如山 它的綠化到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6443.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6462.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這個你中央你有沒有定期去稽查你環境部就是有沒有針對特定幾個譬如說台南他垃圾全國裸露第一那你就應該針對他垃圾堆放的方式還有他自己地方政府所宣稱的報告跟實際的情況你應該要去查核啊看起來他這個做的其實並不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6464.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6486.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
包委員你說的其實他真的有做我們定期都有去查核但是他這個今年從7月開始新增的堆置的他們才是主要集中在某幾個地方所以他的這個點就堆置的特別多但他就是美化他現場有堆放的都沒有講很多而且你們自己官方報告他就是第一名另外一個他涉及到的其實是那個環境的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6487.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6514.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為他離這個曾穩溪口失地只有3.6公里然後他又在國家的這個公園裡面然後他一期二期三期四期哇一直一直去開發聽說第四期還是我們的賴總統擔任賴市長的時候核定的那這個不是跟你的環境保護就是完全是背離啊在國家公園然後他又處理不好然後還可以一直擴增你不覺得這個問題還蠻大的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6516.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6528.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這個有時候我們台灣地下人仇所以如果大家都是用這麼嚴格的標準弄我們根本沒有掩埋場所以基本上這個東西有先來因為這個地方早就有這樣的一個東西我知道 但要輔導包括他後面的幾期 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6531.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6554.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
它如果還要擴增那應該是採取更嚴格的標準不是嗎如果它的焚化爐可以啟動那他們台南也有一個計畫說他們舊的焚化廠或是新的能夠是不是同步啟動我希望你們好好去督導就是各地的這一些譬如說指標性的它裸露垃圾量特別高的我希望中央你們可以加強你們的督導那我們不只垃圾的問題我們最近的廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6558.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6576.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
噴滿為患就是說這個是團山業者他們現在最近也告訴大家說沒有像你們畫的圖卡這麼的美好你們圖卡做得很好這個不可養豬之後他的去化管道這個有清潔隊有乙親業者看起來好像都沒有問題結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6578.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6604.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這一個團善業者他直接就發文他說有問題呀很有問題而且他的發文裡面告訴大家說他們都是比較能忍的人如果當有人已經出來發聲就代表不是只有一個個案而是有很多業者都面臨到現在的廚餘不知道去哪裡因為你們的清運量能不足而且還運費暴漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6607.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6629.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個你們中央的督導責任到底在哪裡你們好像報告都說都沒有問題去化什麼都沒有問題結果這個是他們在第一線就覺得很有問題啊現在到底有問題還是沒問題包委員你沒有追蹤這個陳明信理事長的他也稱讚我們因為我們上禮拜也跟他線上的跟各縣市環保局在開會主一來盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6630.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6655.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所有的一個問題因為有些縣市其實他的這個已清上不去暫時沒有出去所以他有一點點的小狀況那我們也協調了各縣市環保局能夠給他做一個協助所以委員其實這個都有在處理那這個是各縣市他們第一線來負擔我們來協助所以也拜託委員不要說環境部失職做什麼事我們很努力在做也希望你可以看到一些實際上的情況但是現在就是問題還存在我直接問環管署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6656.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6658.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
當問題發生的時候你說2月11號你們會開會請問你開了什麼然後這些輕運量能增加了多少運費還要再漲嗎然後現在到底有哪幾個縣市是有困難的那你要提供什麼協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6674.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6701.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
跟委員報告 12月11號開會召集各縣市環保局跟團散業者一起來談竹縣來盤點現在哪些縣市有困難現在比較困難的大概是直轄市的部分當然如果以陳明信理事長來看他是在新北市 他比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6702.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6722.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
不過經過現場的溝通原來是溝通有點誤會那環保局的副局長也當場承諾跟這個陳明信這個將他的問題解決那這個清運的運費的部分如果因為太高我們也認為不合理的時候就會請環保局他的清潔隊來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6724.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6743.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
当然以轻业者因为他轻运的特性以往是轻运垃圾很少轻运厨余所以他的车辆可能不服使用但是这个部分我们也可以来帮忙解决也同意他们自己去租车或运用自己的车再运到环保局指定的地点以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6743.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6766.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那你們運費有補貼嗎?這個月到這個月底有補貼所以剛剛署長提到的就是直轄市比較有困難,量比較大那都解決了嗎?經過你們開完會之後因為我們是上禮拜是有在開會所以這個禮拜就不會看到有一桶一桶的廚餘堆在那邊沒有人收 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6767.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6794.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
還是有一些個案因為其實他有其實委員這是一個每個縣市環保局他一直去協調面對的問題而且我們那麼多的學校有些學校比較偏遠所以其實要一個是一個系統化去解決的問題啦所以委員請你放心我們會努力把它完成所以拜託委員說我們沒有無為而治我們每天都在處理這個事情好這個是無論是垃圾或者是廚餘我覺得你們作為中央的主管機關都有督導跟協助地方去改善的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6795.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6816.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那這個是我們現在看到的問題我希望你們就是加把勁特別是廚餘的問題因為這個新的政策已經既然是中央的政策你的配套當然就是要跟上那如果現在有沒有做好的部分我們希望你們就是要發揮及時去協助的功能跟地方一起把這個問題好好的解決 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6820.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6826.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好我們宣告待會陳清輝委員發言後休息10分鐘現在請盧憲義委員發言有請部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6838.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6867.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
委員好部長好今天聽了很多關於垃圾山的問題那我們都知道說現在的垃圾可能是幾年前的十倍啊或者是說爆量啊那我是我想知道說現在是焚化爐不夠還是問題出在哪裡第一個是垃圾量的確還在增加特別是外送網購那個還是成長所以我們垃圾量降不下來第二個是我們焚化爐過去呢到了一個整改期所以顯著的這個落差就造成一個差距所以垃圾山爐螺螺就會增多 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6867.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6894.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
可是我的感覺很像是優先處理高價的事業廢棄物一般廢棄物是不是就被排擠在後面有報委員因為現在各個縣市大概都會採取BOT或是委託委外來經營如果說優先處理高價的事業廢棄物如果說你把處理一般家屋的廢物也調高是不是它不會造成那種為了利益而優先處理什麼樣的廢棄物這個理想很好但是因為這個垃圾是地方在管理的所以地方縣市政府可能就要額外編出一筆經費來給焚化爐來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6897.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6914.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以目前因為那個都是委外來經營相對之下他必須要從失業廢棄物獲得一些經費還是希望能夠確保就是說文化輪能夠嚴格遵守說一般廢棄物優先處理而不是讓垃圾處理變成一個是利益導向的一個市場現在是一定的比例而已並沒有說全面給失業廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6915.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6932.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那這次我們台南的烏蘇嶺是大概七成樓高也就是21公尺我們剛才一直都在說日本日本定在5公尺對不對對那我們為什麼當初是沒有去規範是為什麼要讓它變成這麼高然後造成火災的一個頻繁發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6933.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6947.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
因為第一個是說土地的面積大小還有垃圾量的大小或是說有些縣市首長或是地方他們會願意現在就早一點規劃有一個整個縣市的佔治的區域中央能夠有一個針對災害廢棄物臨時佔治場的SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6950.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6976.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
可以嗎這個我們會來規劃我們也會來提醒地方我們不可能期待說明年沒有颱風嘛時間都會有所以可能這個SOP還是要出來不然台南這件事情還是會反覆的我們預計明年就是二月底明年二月底會出來這樣的一個指引好 剛才針對我們林玉琴有講說那末端跟源頭的部分我大概看你剛才講說不是差22倍可是我是一直覺得說你是不是應該從源頭擴增更多的回收的清潔費用來讓他們生產這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6979.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6997.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
垃圾人的責任增加這個源頭這個是我們現在其實也不知道委員因為我們希望說資源循環的這個促進法能夠推的話在源頭的處理就會有更有力道啦所以這樣的一個費用就有可能機會會鼓勵獎勵起來所以這個我也贊同源頭的一個費用要增多 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6998.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7016.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
關於營建廢棄物230萬噸這個部分是不是在運送的時候那些載運的車輛是不是要裝GPS讓他們剛才講的智慧圍理這個部分能夠一起加進去讓這些確實在傾倒這些廢棄物的這些營建廢棄物的這些車輛確實是傾倒到應該放置的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7020.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7035.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
對 這個就是我們明年1月1號開始所有的這個營建土石方或是廢棄物的全部要裝GPS全部都要裝對 明年1月1號開始好 現在回到原鄉的問題就是我們剛才之前講的馬太岸的那個煙色湖那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7036.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7059.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
發現說後來那些垃圾那麼多的垃圾你有去當地嗎有聞到那些非常惡臭的味道那就是它稀畔都有很多掩埋場就這個時候就被沖出來了那我想知道全國有多少的稀畔的掩埋場或者是說有沒有大陸的數據或是說你大概知道大概範圍在哪裡有沒有稀畔的掩埋場這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7062.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7079.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
包括這個數據我們在提供不過現在主要在西畔的掩埋場大多已經是封閉在海岸跟西畔的部分大部分已經封閉那尤其是馬灘這件事情在光復它原來是在合體 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7081.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7106.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
算是以外的地區啦那是核體溢流之後產生的所以我一直覺得為什麼會開放這種比如說河川啊或剛才我們朝偉講的在竹東的水質保護區啊或這些垃圾掩埋場你不覺得應該要規避或是要遠離這些我們所謂的水質保護區嗎那個都幾十年前大家訂的可能幾十年前那個地方是沒有人居住的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7107.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7132.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
然後回到那個廚藝養豬的問題花蓮的問題就是說他們現在是再送不出去然後也沒有量能可以處理所以現在可能一天可能可以多達大概61公噸可是處理的量能大概只有一半所以目前堆置的那個量已經是越來越多所以變成花蓮是雪上加霜又添災又加上這個廚藝的事情你覺得你要怎麼如何來幫助花蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7134.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7155.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
其實第一個是鳳林的環科園區廚藥處理廠因為馬太安的事件有稍微停頓了一下無法營運所以造成它稍微堆置那我所知道的花蓮的垃圾是台逆在做協助的我們其實上禮拜也有特別請花蓮環保局做一個說明所以我們近期還會再請他們做說明 請他們來做規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7157.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7180.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那他們目前是沒有特別跟我們提出什麼樣的需求但是我也請我們的署長在特別針對花蓮的情形看他們如何給他們更好的一個指導現在是所以是可能是朝向全面禁止養豬對不對對對那所以現在的養豬業者他們可能本來你們因為之前的規範說請他們裝鍋爐結果因為以後要禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7181.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7203.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以他們希望他們能夠拆除鍋爐的設備那我是覺得說這種就是強制他們拆除的這個動作會不會太草率因為有的時候豬他不一定都是吃冷的有的時候他可能在冬天是要吃熱的所以這個部分有養豬業者跟我們講說他們願意配合國家的政策可是這個部分能不能有些不能太 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7204.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7216.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這個還是要農業部他們來訂這個政策啦那也跟委員報告因為花蓮的花蓮很早就禁廚餘可是花蓮的廚餘都送到別的縣市現在別的縣市不讓花蓮的直接進來所以產生這個問題所以我們也鼓勵說花蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7219.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7245.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以我是想說能不能建一個比較穩定常態性的跨區域調度機制比如說這個廚藥的然後就是說像現在花蓮那個可能垃圾可能沒有辦法及時處理因為現在有一個叫花蓮的那個台美的DACA再生資源中心它的量也不夠因為又地震又颱風了所以他們又在在地上發生這些天災的時候它的這些廢棄物就堆積無三所以能不能幫花蓮想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7247.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7267.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
OK 這個其實也要地方他們來一起來做啦那特別是廚藥的話生殖能中心如果起來的話就可以比較好的跨區的調度那其實我也拜託委員要跟各個地方的縣市政府他們一定要對於環保多一點用心啦那其實這一次從廚藥或是垃圾來看的話有些縣市對於環保長期投入的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7267.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7289.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
還是希望說有系統性的替代方案比如說跨區的轉運啊跨縣市的緊急應變裝區或者是補助設置第二套的緊急那個處理措施設備這個我們來想辦法但是跟委員報告現在大家的因為大家長期對環保不重視地方尤其是地方那造成說這些東西全部變成零幣設施那我希望部長多努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7290.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7311.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
最後一個問題就是我們的生育率已經可能今年到達不了11萬嘛那我有一個環境荷爾蒙的問題我大家都知道環境我們大概都是從食物啊從容器這個部分來引起的所以可能在處理回收這個部分是不是力道不夠或者是說我們的準確度不夠又或者是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7312.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7340.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
各方面的知識不夠因為我知道美國在美國環境保護署在2015年他有一個新的演算法他對環境荷爾蒙這些的物質或者是他怎麼生物各個家庭生活的領域我覺得他們都有些預測或者是規範可是台灣還沒有我所謂為什麼要提到生物因為環境荷爾蒙會造成就是大概很多的不孕的一個後遺症所以我希望這個部分不僅 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7341.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7353.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
能夠改善 我們以後也可以改善我們的生育率這樣好 這個部分我們有一個國家荷爾蒙的環境的這個調查的計畫那我們再提供給委員那我們會再來留意OK 好 謝謝謝謝盧憲英委員發言 接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席 我想請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7376.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7391.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
剛剛我聽到很多人質詢垃圾山也有提到空污那我跟您報告我今天比較晚到衛黃委員會也是因為剛剛跟四位民進黨委員在開一個記者會講到COPD就是一個慢性肺阻塞的疾病希望大家可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7391.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7412.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
除了篩檢肺癌之外也要篩檢自己是不是有慢性的肺阻塞疾病因為他是第八大死因那這些都跟空汙息息相關但是我今天想要先播一段影片我們立法院有一位省委員他在對東吳大學的學生做發言的時候曾經這樣子講述那我想請環境部長的意見那我們來播放這段影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7418.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7445.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這些環保整個氣勢都洗滿他說他們分享空氣汙染的文章哇現在都超多讚超多分享我一定都知道不妙台灣人突然關心空氣汙染除非是有廠商要賣空氣清洗我怎麼可能要突然關心空氣汙染所以當時呢我跟一個UC Davis的教授我們就去這些粉專來看就是到底是誰在分享這些空氣汙染的數據就一查那一次抓了五千個帳號然後再追到一個社團裡面有兩萬個帳號裡面是兩萬個中國帳號在一個社團裡面他們每天做的事情只有一件就是出去分享台灣任何的空氣汙染有關的資訊還有在留言裡面討論空氣汙染就這樣每天都在做這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7447.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7476.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我想請問環境部長的看法您會覺得說每天對空氣污染做發言或是去評論算是一個資訊戰嗎也包圍了我針對他的這個看法因為我知道他有一些問我沒有看過他的論文我不清楚他在描述什麼啦但是以我的經驗環境部其實在過去一年多包含的這個各種的光電板或是各種的其實我也遭遇到有一些不知道來源的一個對岸的這個攻擊我們是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7477.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7489.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以我部分我是贊成它的網路資訊站的一個看法因為我們的確有一些假燒期來源我們追查到我今天是跟你討論空污所以我們可不可以就空污來做討論您會覺得針對空污的討論還有評論是一個網路的資訊站嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7494.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7523.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這個因為他指的事情我不知道是哪一段時期但是的確我們在台灣這個是最近我跟你說這個是他12月9號到東吳的演講他講的是12月這個時期有一個關心環境的人告訴他說因為他認識很多NGO的人有一個關心環境的人告訴他說最近只要在網路上發表跟空污環境相關的文章就會受到大量的轉發分享或是留言等等的這一類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7524.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7541.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
保安委員這個是政治議題喔我是專業的人士但是我關心空污我的引書也常常有人在留言或是批評的也都有所以我都尊重但是其實台灣無時無刻受到各種的網軍這種所謂的境外或境內的攻擊的確是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7543.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7556.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
對 主席剛剛也 主席剛剛也說他受到網軍的攻擊可能不 可能是您的數百數千倍啦都有啦 都有啦所以彭部長 彭部長你先你先不用覺得說這一切都是來自於哪邊的政治攻擊我現在只是想跟你討論齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7558.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7575.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
其實我們從很久以前就開始關心空污的議題那這個就是台灣從十幾二十年前我包括關心中火都是不分黨派的人去的以及最關心的一百件事情一直都是空污誠如我剛剛跟您講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7576.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7590.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為肺癌一直纏連在癌症癌症是前大死因嘛它是纏連癌症的第一第二名嘛剛剛有講到一個COPD慢性阻塞性肺病也就是死因的第八名所以台灣人關心公屋這件事情其實並不罕見 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7592.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7609.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那另外呢你們自己在今年的五月都有推出一個空氣品質政策白皮書裡面講到永續健康精進汙染淨零還有科技公民參與而且我是要稱讚您的是在健康的章節你有聚焦在兒小還有脆弱族群的空氣權 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7610.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7627.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
甚至您分享自己氣喘的經驗喔比如說你說瓦斯爐的開啟居家的黴菌街道臭氧等等引發過敏所以從過去20年我看到台灣民眾最關心的議題都是空污喔這裡面一定是前十打那 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7628.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7640.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我是希望藉由環境部長的口中可以講其實台灣人很關心自己的環境跟健康我不想要被部分的人士解讀是統戰不要連關心空污都可以被抹紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7642.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7665.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你認同嗎我基本上是關心空污而且這個訊息這是我們也主動來做的那我不知道這個委員他說的是什麼樣的事情但是也跟委員報告我們因為空污的事情我也遭遇到很多很多的境外的一個攻擊的確是有的但是我們不會管這些事情我也希望說國內對於資訊的傳遞上面有一個更好的管理的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7666.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7684.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
是的我認為針對對的事情我們就持續去關注我們並不要去在意那些雜音好嗎我也不認為台灣人民就算有就算有這些資訊戰的影響大家會因為空污影響他們的認知或是什麼的這個就是普世價值而已是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7684.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7711.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
是再來我們要討論的是您在今年我看你也辦了一個蠻盛大的研討會因為極端氣候所以我們現在對高溫的時間越來越長溫度也越來越高光是今年台北跟新北就啟動了11次的高溫警戒所以您在今年7月31號大概預算快要100萬台幣推出一個抗高溫糧食地圖來提升全民對高溫風險的應對能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7713.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7738.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
7月的時候你的新聞稿講到說已經彙整了2400個糧食點裡面就包括便利商店、銀行、公家機關等等如今超過了5000個提供1.5萬次的以上使用但是其中主要地點大部分還是在六都啦你其中的其他縣市還在積極的拓展中不過我先示範給你看因為我就自己試用了一下比如說我找立院附近 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7739.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7757.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
從你的抗高溫地圖可以找到5處的糧食點可是其實如果我是用google map的話便利商店的數量就高達22間更不用說這麼多的政府公務部門就在這附近再來呢我再來搜尋環境部的附近環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7758.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7771.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
糧食點你的地圖上是有8處戶外降溫設施是1處可是其實環境部附近的便利商店大概就有16處還有你們對面有個景點叫做西本苑寺廣場這個都在你的圈圈裡面看不到的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7772.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7789.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以我想知道說你目前糧食點大概有5000處便利商店就佔了一半以上可是其實全台灣的便利商店已經14000多家了可以配合您配合環境部的店家只有2000多家您覺得有什麼方式可以改善這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7791.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7811.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
第一個像這個店家他就說因為進去沒有買東西說真的我也不好意思所以他主動說你如果身體不適可以進去不要覺得不好意思所以他光是這個便利商店做這個我就很感興因為我們一個政策讓他們願意響應那也跟委員報告因為現在只有六都啦我希望可以更多那因為我們也沒什麼錢做這個事我未來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7811.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7826.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就希望變成一個開放資料不是只有我們的網頁就是讓大家可以各個平台如果他要加那未來環境部的那個APP也會加進去我希望讓這個可以擴展多一點讓大家隨手可得知道我哪裡熱了可以到那個地方降溫 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7828.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7843.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那第二個我想問一下您有沒有實際跟您比較認識的長輩或是家中的長輩來實際操作因為我們有遇到跟長輩來操作他是覺得根據這些統計的確是真的其實長輩在使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7844.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7848.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
3C產品的時候第一個他們是用來做通訊然後第二個他們是用來看新聞第三呢他們是用來查一些資訊不是查資訊就是看一些影音比如說YouTube或者是抖音什麼等等的這三個才是最常見的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7863.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7879.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
55歲60歲以上他們會用搜尋這個功能的大概只有70%可是針對70歲以上的人大概只有一半的人有這樣子的能力所以我實際上去找了一些比較高齡的長者因為其實您在研討會就有提到說你們是希望透過科技跟關懷 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7880.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7895.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
去守護尤其是獨居的長者或是高齡的長者不能遺漏任何一個人政策要溫度所以你當然就要針對你這群TA啊我想問你在實際操作的時候有沒有遇到這樣子的狀況因為我有他們是不習慣去找這些搜尋軟體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7896.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7923.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
對好謝謝委員的意見因為我知道因為年長者其實3C也不會太差不過他們喜歡用LINE要不要搜尋很困難所以基本上我有叫我同仁說我們以後LINE app要多做一點讓老年他們加入我們LINE然後直接發一個訊息就可以回答等於是直接互動式的來做處理我有叫我同仁趕快來研究做這個事情就LINE app比較多一點點對所以我在這邊幫我撥下兩頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7926.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7949.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這邊我要具體給你一點建議因為衛福部他明年1月1號開始他要去訪查我們全台灣的獨居老人方式我是認為環境部如果對於一些高齡長者的關懷其實你可以跟衛福部一起去你可以知道說這些他們對於3C的觸及率是多少還有他們使用你提供這些利益良善的資訊有沒有遇到什麼障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7950.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7966.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那你就可以跟衛福部或者抒發部去做整合比如他們假使有要提供一些課程是會把你們這個東西納入或者是長輩喜歡用的軟體你剛剛講得很好就是做一些結合那另外你剛剛講到的其實他們會不好意思走進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7967.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7997.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
但是現在其實全國的超商都有跟地方政府有一些配合不管是發牛奶或者是比較這個中低收入的家庭他們的小朋友可以在特定的時間到超商去拿一些物資來使用什麼的這些都很好所以未來看你有沒有想要做這些在高溫或者是極高溫的狀況下長輩可以在便利商店悅換一些尤其有電解質的飲料這樣就可以打破他不好意思走進去這樣子的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7997.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8019.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
但這個需要很多整合可能中央跟地方政府可是提供您一個想法而已委員你的意見非常好我會請我團隊針對委員的意見納入我們明年要推動的項目來做看看因為我們今年其實有一個團我們有一個團隊跟台南就是幾層大的幾個老師結合針對年長者因為我們現在年長者有時候他家連裝冷氣的機會都沒有我們要針對弱勢的最弱勢的找出來我們但是他沒有得獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8025.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8048.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
但是我禮拜四的時候會特別表揚他們因為他們整合在一起有在做類似的事這就是我現在想告訴您的在六都你有這些地圖有這些地方其實不錯可是這邊的人並不是最需要幫忙的反而是衛福部接下來要去訪查那些獨居長者尤其在偏鄉的地方這才是你真的需要趕快立即幫助他們的因為他們可能家裡並沒有這些空調最後一個問題我想花兩分鐘的時間跟您討論下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8054.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8077.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這個是之前曾經我們有質疑過那您在9月27面對新聞的時候部長你馬上說要進行政風的調查可是我們大概過了75天完全看不到您的政風報告可是黃國昌委員又再度質詢為什麼會跟特定的廠商一起出國並且特定的廠商獲得了許多限制型的標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8077.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8099.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
但是在黃國昌委員質詢之後呢您12月10號才說查無不法前前後後經歷了75天你從講政風調查到你公布報告也沒有到你中間對外有一個說法也沒有所以我今天其實是想要請教您不知道這個您的調查報告到底有出來嗎可以提供給我們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8101.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8117.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
內部調查報告已經完成我們署長在這邊他其實覺得這次雖然他沒有任何問題但是他自己也跟我要自己自請處分這個程序我們會在已經在進行內部的考試委員會裡面去做處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8117.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8146.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
沒關係部長我問你一個很簡單的問題因為這個公文上面有押您的名字嘛部長彭啟明那他說他需要進去貴賓室開會所以他需要帶兩位廠商人員他要開會嘛然後最後我看您對媒體的說法是最後廠商是沒有進去對就他而已這個會是開了嗎會是已經先開了嗎或者是他跟廠商走到會議室前面覺得說好像不妥不適合進去因此他沒有進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8148.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8173.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
部長回答就好我們署長他沒有開那他因為他本身自己信用卡刷就有機場貴賓室的權利所以我後來也通令我們的所有同仁以後這個是不允許的所以他如果知道他自己就可以使用他並沒有要發公文他其實也可以發第二份公文去說他不需要這樣子的安排不是嗎是所以我們內部已經要求說類似這樣的行為是我們本部是不可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8174.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8200.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好所以我們大概多久可以獲得您這個調查報告因為您9月27就說你要進行一個這個調查對我們已經其實我在他們大概一個月內就已經調查已經完成我也早就有看到了你一個月內調查完成可是你沒有跟我們講因為後來要進行懲處然後我們又在處理馬太安很多很多的事情所以這個部分因為現在那個我們署長他也有勇氣因為他回來之後馬上就去救災然後這件事都很忙那他也主動說因為懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8202.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8219.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
包含了有些同仁很辛苦他只不過好意然後也要說要懲處所以我們署長也擔起責任他自己跟我自行處分好 所以我們一個禮拜應該可以跟你要調查報告調查報告沒問題但是我們最後考機我們有另一個審議的公部門的一個程序好 那下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8220.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8248.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
關於這個黃國昌委員提到的限制型標案因為這一家一起跟署長出國的廠商他總共獲得有五個標案都是限制型的標案我們是不是可以也在一個禮拜內跟你要到一個報告就是你這些限制型的條件是哪些條件然後他是因為流標很多次或者是說他這五個標案到底有幾家是一起來標的到底是一家兩家三家或者是一直都只有他這一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8249.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8271.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
因為黃委員可能沒有在政府機關服務過限制性招標不是說我限制只有你可以來而是某一個條件是是是我們想知道我想跟你要這個資料第一個資料是您的限制性條件到底列哪些條件嗎就這五個標案然後第二個就是說這五個標案裡面大概每一個標案有幾個廠家來一起競標這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8273.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8280.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
方便嗎這個沒有問題這個政府都是公開的沒有問題那我們就再跟您會後要這兩個資料好謝謝部長署長辛苦了謝謝好謝謝現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8318.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8323.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
小的透明的那種比較透明的那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8909.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8915 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
還有沒有人沒有回來勒好現在繼續開會請林淑芬委員發言好現在是不是我們請彭部長林委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8929.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8940.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
部長我們在一夕之間就宣布了這個廚餘不再養豬那現在每天大概有幾千噸的廚餘大概現在1700多噸1700多噸瞬間成為燙手山芋一半進焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8955.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8975.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
另外一半可能就掩埋然後就是這樣子生殖冷生殖冷的量就固定了你是有設定目標但現在就是生殖冷幾乎就是那麼一點點所以這個政策急轉彎的後果大多數還是要靠我們老舊翻新的焚化爐來承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8977.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9005.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那我們走到第一線的垃圾處理現場我們看到很荒謬的景象現在含水量高達80%的生熟廚餘放到焚化爐裡面這個焚化爐就像在燒開水一樣不僅大幅降低了焚化的溫度減損了發電的效率而且大家都知道超零服役的焚化爐面臨了更嚴重的設備耗損的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9007.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9024.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以你在報告裡面提到要將廚餘處理設施的量能提升到每天2119噸聽起來像是政績 但事實上我需要跟你分享你卻暴露了我們對於源頭減量的無能為力 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9028.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9043.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
你們現在想的是說我們把廚餘的量能提高到生產的量能可以處理這些廚餘就好了可是你們從來都沒有想過說真正的正本清源是要源頭減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9045.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9073.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那我們一方面喊著2050要淨零排放可是另外一方面都用這個高耗能的方式去燒掉或許裡面還有很多是可以餵飽弱勢族群的食物有一些是可以轉化為肥沃土壤的有機質聯合國的數據告訴我們食物浪費貢獻了多少%的溫室氣體排放你知道嗎大概10%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9073.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9101.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
差不多所以這些食物浪費貢獻了10%的溫室氣體的排放所以歐盟已經透過廢棄物框架指令要來重新分配這個配置食物的資源我們還在煩惱廚餘太臭沒有人要還在想要蓋幾座的生殖能廠來消化這些錯置的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9102.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9117.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我的意思是說你們的想像你們的政策裡面到現在為止你們的政策都沒有重新分配食物資源的這個概念完全都沒有所以我們今天就是要請你說你要跳出把廚藥當成垃圾處理的這一個舊思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9123.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9139.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
而是要跳到循環經濟裡面的架構來看那我們知道歐盟的處理政策開始談歐盟的處理政策並不是獨立存在的而是架構在歐盟運作的條約第191條的環境條款跟2015年的循環經濟的行動計畫的宏觀的架構裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9150.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9177.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他的核心邏輯是一定要嚴格的遵守廢棄物管理階層的優先順序你知道他們的優先順序是什麼嗎歐盟這段我沒有看到他第一個優先順序處理這個循環經濟這個食物廢棄物管理階層優先順序第一一定要預防最優先要從源頭避免浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9178.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9204.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
第二要再利用供人類食用就是食物捐贈這是僅次與預防的最佳方案要做食物捐贈第三動物飼料第四工業生殖能第五堆肥第六最後最後不得已最終的不得已是焚化和掩埋它是最後手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9205.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9209.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對照我們的狀況我們的政策中心現在你都是選擇456就是生殖能堆肥焚化這個在歐盟的這一個廢棄物管理階層的優先順序裡面都是很低階的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9223.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9244.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
價值流失較多的處理方式歐盟他們優先是要將資源的價值要保留在經濟體系當中的最高位置也就是要儘可能保留它作為食物的形態而不是廢棄物的形態所以我現在要請你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9247.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9263.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
用科學的數據來治理從末端的氫運量統計要走向全生命週期的食物浪費的統計你們光是統計就沒有統計了所以你會告訴我你們一年產生多少的食物浪費部長你講的出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9265.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9288.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
說真的台灣的數據我有問了基本上是沒有沒有統計那也跟委員報告其實我們行政院的報告裡面我們有特別加進去一個就是重新再推動食農洗食的教育就是委員你說的那我們現在正在整合因為我覺得我們這個過去早就有推可是都很分散沒有啦食農洗食是口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9289.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9291.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
如果你連產生多少量你都統計不出來你根本不知道你有沒有洗到這個洗到時根本不知道啊環境部的統計數字永遠是清潔隊的回收量 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9305.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9331.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
但是這種數據 你說你有多少廚餘 剩食你們就只有清潔隊的回收量 是末端的處理量而不是源頭的產生量 更不是食物的浪費量你都不知道食物浪費多少 你怎麼捨談 洗食呢你怎麼知道有沒有洗食所以不要把它變成抽象的 道德的口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9333.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9356.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
環境部的統計邏輯喔將所有的有機廢棄物混在一起秤重啊一桶來自自助餐的廚餘桶裡面混了沒有吃完的白飯現在連排骨也可以丟進去連被料時削下來的果皮也都可以放進去混在一起送上垃圾車秤重所以這個重量是什麼 沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9357.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9382.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
沒有意義這個數字也沒有告訴你們這些決策者有多少的比例是因為供應鏈的管理不當而過期的麵包有多少比例是因為消費者習慣而倒掉的剩食如果我們沒有辦法區分可以避免的浪費和不可避免的廢棄物我們的減量 洗食就是口號而已啊 保重 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9383.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9403.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那你們的公告因回收或再利用廢棄物再生資源項目你們的項目上面怎麼寫你要先統計啊沒有任何統計的這個數字沒有計算就沒有所謂的減量可是你們的公告因回收再利用廢棄物再生資源項目只有一個項目叫什麼你們一個叫做除以兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9409.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9421.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
事業產生出來的廚餘就是廚餘兩個字你們在廚餘裡面沒有其他的概念了你覺不覺得應該要有其他的概念在統計上光從正本清源的統計上沒有辦法設定減量啊你怎麼設定減量連統計都沒有連計算都沒有怎麼設定減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9433.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9452.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
包括委員廚餘記得有分不一樣的類別我們林副署長你要不要說明一下廚餘有分類但是委員說的這個我們的例如說餐廳或是一般團散出來的那個部分的確是缺乏統計資料啦我現在要跟你講我他山之石可以公錯了我已經講很多遍一直跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9454.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9469.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
對比之下 歐盟早在10年前就意識到這個問題了歐盟執委會為了達成聯合國SDG12.3 減少糧食浪費的目標啟動了歐盟食物浪費預防 還有社會創新計畫 簡稱Fusion |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9473.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9491.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
他的futures他不是一個簡單的統計專案而是關於一場關於定義的革命定義definition的定義他的核心價值在於他建立了一套非常嚴謹的定義的框架他不再籠統的簡稱叫做廚餘副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9496.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9514.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
你們除了廚宇以外還有其他名稱嗎?還有其他統計嗎?是 我們的一般廢棄物裡面是有一個廚宇這個名稱事業廢棄物裡面有廚宇的名稱那還有一些是說剩食那剩食裡面又有分成是來自於比如說工廠的那一些我們有植物性殘渣 動物性殘渣還有一些下腳料等等所以這個是統稱 統稱叫廚宇事實上它在個別的代碼存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9522.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9550.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
最終還是混在一起啦一個委員報告就是說 洗食的東西我對於現在的洗食是不滿意的啦所以我已經請我們製造不滿意要有手段要有方法要改革而且它必須從定義開始我就跟你講歐盟它首先強制跟食物廢棄物區分為它並不是你們講的下甲料什麼剩食廚餘剩食跟廚餘它不是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9551.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9570.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
它是區分為可以食用的部分跟不可食用的部分那為什麼要這樣子區分呢因為這樣子要對接到不同的管理的工具政策工具會不一樣所以對於可食用的部分比如說過期的吐司 外觀炒肉的蔬果 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9571.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9586.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個是資源錯置啊政策的目標是要預防跟再分配例如說要捐贈給食物銀行但是對不可食用的部分像蛋殼、骨頭才是真正的廢棄物它的政策目標應該是價值轉化譬如說拿去驗養發酵產氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9591.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9610.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那歐盟透過這套的方法制定了統一的量化手冊要求成員國在食物供應鏈的六大階段從初級生產、加工、製造、批發物流、零售市場到餐飲服務業到家庭消費進行全面的盤查他要盤查六個階段都要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9615.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9640.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
然後讓歐盟能夠精準的抓出原本在生產端有大量的農產品因為外觀不符合超市的規格而被拋棄而在消費端有大量的食物因為標示不清楚而被拋棄有了這套數據以後第一它才能夠訂出精準的廢棄物框架指令 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9641.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9663.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那有這個廢棄物框架的指令才能夠強制要求大型企業揭露數據才能夠對症下藥你看我們台灣還在用多少量總重量來自我安慰以為說出於回收率高就是做環保殊不知我們的回收一半以上可能是有可能啊你是不應該要丟棄的食物啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9665.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9679.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
更不要講說歐盟第二個人家在進一步在2025年更修訂了再一次的修訂指令為了要達到2030年將人均食物的浪費要減半的目標人家訂出浪費減半的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9683.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9709.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
而且减少生产和供应链中的食物损失他们要求成员国要在2030年前将加工制造环节的食物浪费要减少10%此外成员国在零售和消费的环节比如说在餐厅在餐饮服务机构和家庭要设定人均食物的浪费要减少30% |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9712.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9724.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以你剛剛講治理不能變成空話沒有盤查就沒有管理沒有辦法設定政策工具更談不上減量的目標所以不會源頭減量你現在說我要增加去化去除這些廢棄物的處理量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9734 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9743.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個都是末端啊要生產更多生產過更多然後你再蓋更多這個不是從來都不是這樣子不應該是這樣子報告委員其實我的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9749.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9776.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們的確有在研究法國的食物浪費法避免食物浪費法那他到底怎麼做的我們也在看甚至像韓國韓國他的廚餘都要秤重的要付費的我們也都在觀察就是怎麼樣去推動因為我們的確對於浪費食物台灣過去並沒有一個很好的政策道德性的去做處理而已所以我也贊同委員說的但是這個部分我們需要跨部會去做例如說我們現在很多的團散 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9777.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9798.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
製造一堆三成的變成廚餘這個其實就是有問題嘛這個很多問題啊對啊那比如說你們的2050的循環經濟路徑裡面鴛鴦傻傻說建立食品供應鏈減損管理的策略聽起來很好啊你說這個食物浪費法聽起來好像很好啊可是你們要具體的管理的工具啊具體管理的工具和手段在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9798.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9807.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以你不是說定一個這個處於這個食品浪費法就好了你要導入你要先導入你先要統計啊你要像Fusion一樣的盤查方法所謂的供應鏈減損如果你沒有這種盤查的話這供應鏈減損就是一句空話根據公視的報導目前列管的1490家的超市和量販業者當中你現在講說要個別家庭出入要秤重要計價你為什麼不從業者開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9828.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9832.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
1490家的超市和量販業者當中他們每年申報一萬一千噸的廢棄食品耶一萬一千噸耶1490家而已請問部長這一萬一千噸裡面有多少是還可以吃但是被丟掉的有多少是已經腐敗不能吃的你們答不出來吧因為業者申報的時候根本不需要區分啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9853.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9871.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
對然後大多數直接去焚化爐燒掉但業者只要把東西交給清潔處理機構就好了啊責任就沒了啊業者根本不需要在乎任何的執行的細端是進到豬的肚子還是跑到焚化爐去都跟他無關都是你政府的責任嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9871.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9875.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以你們也不在乎啊但是當不能夠養豬以後你們就必須要在乎了啊但我講這一萬一千噸高熱脂的廢棄食品失去了養豬這個去處我們還是不知道他們的成分我們就沒有辦法精準的把他們導流 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9890.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9917.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
到底我們可能會把這個高原分的剩食送進堆肥廠它也毀了農地的土壤把高水分的果皮送進了焚化爐毀了爐體的耐火磚所以在這裡面你們的很多KPI啦但是你們的KPI到目前看起來永遠在追逐末端的處理設施的擴建而陷入了垃圾產生越多預算編列越多的惡性循環 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9920.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9932.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
你們的KPI說 堆肥啦 黑水盲啦 生殖能的處理廠啊提升全國處理的設施量能你們一天 2017年 116年要達到2119噸一天這是非常危險的指標設定欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9939.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9943.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
部長 你設定的指標是我們的目標是處理量能提升那就意味著處理越多越好嗎真正的循環經濟的目標應該是處理產生量要下降但我們過去幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9955.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9970.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
精準的食物浪費的基準線都沒有辦法統計和設定怎麼去設定2030年要減少50%的食物浪費這麼精準的源頭減量的目標不可能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9972.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9976.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以我在這裡具體要求 最後我具體要求第一我請你半年內 半年內參照歐盟Fusion的架構發佈台灣版的食物浪費盤查指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9987.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9990.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
設定科學化的減量基準線而這個指引不能夠只是參考性質必須具有強制利入法強制要求從業者開始資本額達到一定規模以上的食品製造業餐飲業和零售通路商每年必須申報詳細的食物浪費盤查報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10014.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10034.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
包委我非常同意你的做法包含我們未來其實我們那個整個在應急的這個處理的去化的處理裡面有留下一個伏筆就是源頭減量所以這個部分呢委員你提到的這個意見是我們的確是在看那我們現在是因為先應急但是後面的部分呢委員六個月太長我們會努力盡快之前會完成我很樂意聽到你這個但是這個報告必須揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10037.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10058.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那個企業一年採購了多少食物銷售了多少量丟棄了多少量在丟棄的部分當中可時跟不可時的比例為何流向跑到哪裡去了只有當這些數據被攤在陽光下企業才可以接受到社會責任的才可以接到社會監督感受到社會責任的壓力才會認真的去檢討採購跟庫存管理的流程這樣才能達到真正的源頭減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10064.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10088.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
但是我必須說我們的確還有一些相關的法規還要再配套還有食品安全管理的問題也是要配套還有責任的問題也是要配套這個我們執行細節再討論好 謝謝委員我們會趕快來做謝謝林淑芬委員謝謝林淑芬委員發言接下來請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10096.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10099.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 謝謝謝謝主席 請部長請部長部長辛苦了謝謝我問三個問題簡單明瞭第一個現在台灣的露天的垃圾場還有幾座33座那個那個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10125.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10128.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
沒有 下一張 這個怎麼63以前200多座嘛 這個應該是以前 以前還沒有處理的那你現在這些露天的 你給人家說2026年要全部慘評 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10145.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10174.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
你是要怎麼產品第一個是附土第二個是打包不是產品附土打包產品要等到焚化爐的量能夠才慢慢的把它處理還要一段時間所以就蓋蓋蓋這樣要二到零因為這個掩埋本來就是垃圾處理的方式之一但是我們現在我們先解決因為裸露的過去實在太多去年我上任的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10176.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10200.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
甚至有人號稱百月 事實上是53座啦那現在是我們希望能夠減少因為住在附近的民眾真的很可憐啦所以我們是希望承諾說先把它蓋起來然後之後我們等到焚化爐的量夠之後一步一步的再來處理像台南前幾天灰燒起來 垃圾山灰燒是很病傷的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10203.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10230.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
又很難泡沸因為你的水車去到那裡都要捏一捏水車載五檔、六檔的水去那裡就轉不三就完了所以只要垃圾山火燒都很難撲滅一燒就是一個禮拜、兩個禮拜、一個禮拜分汙染非常的嚴重那現在還有四個縣沒有焚化爐嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10232.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10245.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
雲林、南島、花蓮、新的館新竹他已經在試營運了南投他自己我所知道他們地方要發飆然後澎湖他們自己有在討論其實我應該不太會發飆吧發飽啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10256.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10284.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以這是沒辦法驗收那他們現在都是掩埋還是拖到白天的關係我還去法輪 台南島都拖到台中刺燒嘛現在還有嗎現在因為台中自身難保所以他都還是自己有委託給別的縣市再處理啦但是等於是說量還是沒辦法去化所以還是要趕快給他們蓋啦我們屏東分類得很好所以效果不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10285.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10303.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
是工商不發達還是怎樣垃圾量太少還是分類很好他們很努力啦所以屏東的這個原來的這個垃圾露天的這個裸露的這個其實已經沒有了沒有了黃寮那個好像也都沒了對沒有了解決了好第二個問題那個台灣黑熊往下跑日本棕熊也往下跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10315.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10343.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
臺灣的石斧也往下跑結果日本那邊有報說這跟光電板有關的 柏定是什麼這個我沒有特別的研究啦我會再來跟這個農業部來探討一下他說這個因為光電板太陽會動嘛所以光電板每一個角度都不一樣所以反射反光都不一樣那這些光害動物本身就很敏感鳥類也很敏感 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10344.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10365.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那這些棲息在中中海海拔的像低海拔的石斧苗栗那邊都一直往往下走整個棲息地都破壞所以日本現在有一個提出一個看法說他們低海拔中海拔現在絕對不再做光電板屋頂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10367.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10390.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
光點板他們可以做,他們還是可以允許做,但是地海拔、中海拔他們都不做我們台灣,昨天有在這裏留研究一年,現在的錢都遭遭了來,這幾本都要送了現在台灣這幾年保育做得很好,你到山上可以看到很多山羌啊我到霧台那邊去,整條馬路旁邊都是猴子 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10391.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10394.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我就給牠比這樣 凍蒜凍蒜牠也這樣 跟我一起跳我把牠撂回牆上看一看所以這些熊或者是野生動物的棲息 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10406.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10425.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
你要研究一下,你沒有這方面的idea因為這個是屬於農業部主管的,我們會給他研究不過委員,因為我們台灣的光電板的環評的標準在山坡地是全世界最嚴格的委員你放心,目前未來山坡地如果要光電板是很辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10427.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10447.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
要管制啦,不要這樣一直破壞我們的環境喔你看這些光電板的葉子一個一個都出事啦,燒啊燒啊,這表示說有問題嘛弊端一大堆,我們環境部的人絕對不要去隱謀到裡面,不要牽扯到沒有沒有,我們是這個環評的審核單位,所以我們跟那個無關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10451.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10466.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
把關把得嚴一點不要受到壓力就亂核准這個是災難整個遺憾給子孫不可取啦你上次那些光電板33座 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10467.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10483.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
出事的現在復原到什麼程度現在它的量現在33座我們有拿到這個23座的它的這個數據每一個列拿的數據了然後其他的都是在已經進入這個去化的過程當中所以我也很放心我們都有列管好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10489.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10500.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這個問題,事業廢棄物那你現在SRF啦,你的事業廢棄物啦,你現在有沒有分類分得好?我看你們現在是蠻嚴格的啦想不想問你一下,醫療廢棄物現在怎麼處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10508.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10533.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
醫療廢棄物現在一年大概是12萬噸那目前來說的話現在等於是說有分幾種的量大概12家啦然後滅菌再利用的8家其實目前的量能剛好是平衡的不過我是覺得因為我也聽到很多醫界的朋友說很貴啦很貴那我也會跟我們署長再想辦法說如何循環再利用的比例拉高減少它的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10534.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10552.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那現在用紅袋裝的污染性廢墟都燒掉嘛黃袋是回收嘛那這是你們在控制還是醫事室在控制因為有些災利用是衛福部那邊公告的不過我們這邊還是會去輔導讓滅菌災利用這邊的量可以增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10557.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10578.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
就是說用黃帶的盡量鼓勵這樣可以回收是不是這樣嘛所以現在以前大部分都是用紅帶就直接燒掉 是不是很可惜啊那你現在黃帶的比例 副市長現在差不多8%跟蘇委員報告 根據環境部113年的資料顯示黃帶的再利用率是23% |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10582.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10596.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
百分之二十三所以一些比如洗腎的tube啦那些人工腎臟都可以破碎回收那你現在黃袋的價格跟紅袋的價格差很多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10599.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10617.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
價格應該蠻有差異的,可能是他的三分之一或二分之一就是說黃袋比較便宜,這樣喔?對對對,進行回收再利用的,滅菌再利用比較便宜就是鼓勵他們盡量回收就對了北斗你這裡有什麼,北斗我看醫療會期會都做到辛苦多了都做到要倒要倒,還有什麼事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10622.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10636.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
不會啊,我訪視幾家都還因為他的收的費用還蠻高的但是量不多啦量不多啦所以有在輔導我看真的他們都艱苦經營 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10640.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10657.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們今年就是有綠色醫療方案去進行輔導所以像我們的25家醫學中心今年已經可以全部來推動我們生物醫療滅菌災難的工作像去年是比去年的話就多了4家了 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10660.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10676.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這一方面回收再利用,滅菌之後回收再利用,因為常常接到他們的懲罰,所以保證跟我們貿易部這邊都要注意,如果需要幫忙就幫忙,我沒有講特定哪一家,這個是好事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10681.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10705.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
跟委員報告其實那個SRF它還是一個經過好好的管理它還是可以走的路啦那我也就是透過這個機會就是說如果好的可以繼續走社會也要慢慢可以接受因為我們經過一年的整頓其實整個成效還不錯啦慢慢得到大家的信賴不過還是有一段路要走啦還是被汙名化啦所以這個要輔導啦也要跟他們幫忙好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10710.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10737.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好謝謝蘇青權委員發言請劉建國召委發言好謝謝主席那請部長請彭部長召委好部長這一本這一本你有沒有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10739.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10754.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
環境部的全台垃圾山危機與社會氣候去化的專案報告有你有詳細看過我後來自己在做簡報我自己是簡報的版本可能有一些些我的簡報的部分會更細緻呈現 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10759.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10773.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以這個不夠細緻嘛因為我是看那個我自己核外在做這個在多做的更多對啊所以你就看這個覺得就是不夠細緻你才會再做另外那一份對要讓大家比較更清楚的了解如果說這份你有看過我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10775.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10796.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
跟我對你的認識在你私生上的作為跟作風是有很大的落差是真的有很大的落差簡單講,台灣垃圾處理的觀念一直是落後國際這個我們不得不承認我在這個委員會也有一段時間也經歷過好幾屆的署長跟現在的部長那人家處理這個垃圾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10804.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10831.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
方法,其實好像人家在開跑車,我們一直在騎腳踏車啦不要說看不出車尾燈啦,先驗也驗不中啦因為你來當部長的時候,我覺得應該是有有不一樣來面對這個垃圾處理從減量嘛,從這個戰志啦,從到要掩埋是文化應該會有不一樣的一個思維跟做法但是我看這個報告裡面,沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10833.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10852.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
就是完全沒有,所以我才會這麼講我們當時是在1990年的時候我們政府提出一線是一封萬路的政策那國際上當時歐洲等國家就已經確立減量與回收優先,魂化為主我們要以魂化為主,掩埋為虎的觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10854.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10880.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
然後到2025年已經經過35年了三十五年了狀況仍然一樣我們面對垃圾問題我們思考是如何儘早掩埋、焚化沒有重新的去思考要如何再減量然後再到做最好的戰策的處理甚至於面對突然的災害還有焚化廠的睡秋的時候要如何去應驗短期這個暴增的垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10881.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10890.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
因為從今年的花蓮光復災害以及台中非洲豬瘟的事件我想是給我們臺灣很冷善的一刻沒有充分的事前準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10891.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10921.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
結果這個災害發生我們好像感覺到有在做啦但是中央跟地方來講感覺地方的束手無策全是顯示在國人的面前那中央當然也一直積極要去處理不過好像這個一直銜接不起來我在這個報告裡面然後再整理一些資料部長你就知道我要提出來說這個報告完全不是你的施政作用跟作為那你看喔部長在看這個表這是環境部建置的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10921.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10932.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
全國螺絡堆積垃圾妥善處理監控平台上面很清楚顯示114年到現在全國各地野脈廠轉運站等垃圾堆積廠火災通報77次偷偷 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10937.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10964.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
也就是說這些堆置廠平均每兩週就發生一起火災這個不是零屁設施這不是險惡設施這叫危險設施然後111年至今新竹21起我的母縣因為現在竟然也11起來澎湖連離島的澎湖也10起所以我們在垃圾這個戰事的整個管理上 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10965.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10971.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
落天的關係上,根本就是鬆散,毫無機率,而且我們還設置這個平台,還讓這樣的事情持續在發生。我是要說,這是完全搞到不得了。這個就有陰謀論,這個民間有講的嘛。像是上去不能修,不一定可以照亮全部修一修嘛。再來,記者有問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10990.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11018.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個中央當時對焚化爐的政策從公辦公營、公辦民營到民辦民營坦白講這中間有很多人當時在上下起手也有很多人因為這個樣子因案因這樣的案子被抓去官判刑執行完畢了這是顯示顯示這個政策基本上必須要大幅的去面對然後去做修正不然這件事情還是會層出不窮因為到現在還有人期待要蓋焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11020.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11049.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我現在想說他這個他這個知道這個狀況反而沒有在期待焚化爐那直接搞一個露天的焚化廠來做焚化不然怎麼會這個樣子兩個禮拜一次兩個禮拜燒一次兩個禮拜燒一次不分本島跟離島然後我們還設置這個監控平台那第二件事情12月1號我們環境部發一個新聞稿集團7號加劇環境部督促地方政府加強掩埋掩場的防災管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11050.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11067.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
然後研擬什麼?研擬災害廢棄物管理指引你知道如果不發這條新聞我會不會覺得我不知道這是不是經過部長的同意還是部長的指示然後來研擬這樣的一個指引到現在研擬指引有用嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11069.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11083.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
到現在,面對這麼多場的火災,我們還沿你指引,你覺得有嗎?而且你沒指引,我看你報告,好像到明年的二月,農曆過年前後才要出來,不知道要再燒幾百啊?照這樣的比例,發生率來講, |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11088.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11114.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我針對當時衛福部啦 不管凱凱案啦 不管那個蘇安隆案都有啊 地方政府也有訂指引啊中央也有指引啊地方政府覺得說我們訂的還比你中央的指引更好因為這個完全沒有法律上的效力啦完全沒有啦所以一旦要等到燒出事情 燒出任命我們大家才警覺然後才覺得這非常嚴重的事情我們才要去做面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11116.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11139.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我覺得這不對啦依照部長的個性還有施政的作風我想這個應該我們立法院來修懷也不為過所以你們要不要趕快你們要趕快去面對然後去調整然後去修正你們相關的辦法來好處理這個事情不然今天召委排這個專報你不要召委排完之後兩個禮拜又不曉得哪一個縣市的暫時的垃圾對市長又燒一次還是兩個禮拜內燒兩次沒道理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11146.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11167.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以我希望部長就是面對這個事情,依照你的施政的作風作為,應該是很積極的,該修辦法去修辦法,該提到我們來修木瓦,我們就來做修木瓦嘛。戰資產的相關規定都在一般的虧金回收清除處理的辦法中,所以我在這邊要去理跟部長建議啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11167.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11195.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們應該整個梳理這相關規定 同時是不是找專家包含相關單位 地方政府的意見訂定一個專門針對垃圾戰車場的管理辦法好 好不好 我覺得這要訂出來啦 好不好因為你今天報告裡面有用自己的車子 你這塊有尾車嘛有要求專家學者去中央地方相關部會來討論以有具有初步具體內容具體內容是不是可以輸出於在修訂相關辦法裡面好 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11197.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11214.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
一個星期可以吧委員因為這個是因為我們包含我們同仁這個上個禮拜也到日本去問他們專家因為日本很理想說例如說我們的堆製值的五公尺高然後多大的面積然後我有我在但是這個在台灣喔差很多我知我知 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11218.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11243.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
台灣齁 你在做補兌肥養有很多輸肥跟做法也不一定輸一份啦我們等到看一份肥養我們才有在做啦對齁 一九九五年到現在二十五年三十五年啊我們還在處理垃圾的戰事處理的相關辦法然後要去嚴定指引你去看日本也沒有用啊你去看美國也沒有用啊你去看歐美也有什麼用那是心態問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11245.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11271.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那心態問題不比35天現在還在補責嘛我講白話就是這樣啊你再看你們12月的時候又出了一則新聞這個新聞我看了我看了實在是還蠻混淆的台中市環保局出妙招出妙招出妙招還是真的有夠奇妙妙妙妙什麼妙招要收垃圾再打包避免發臭四處飛 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11273.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11298.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
垃圾打包垃圾分選垃圾打包什麼時候環境部從環保署的時代什麼時候開始實施中央跟台中市政府有城鄉落差進入到時空隧道嗎是從1990年到現在2025年中央的這個垃圾的分選打包跟台中市政府是有有這樣的疏離感嗎這個叫妙招 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11303.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11325.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個會叫妙招這既定的啦 這個以前很久就這樣做了不管媒體怎麼下標我是覺得為什麼到現在台中市的環保局才會來處理這個事情然後被媒體形容叫做妙招你環境部都沒有妙招啦好可憐喔台中市現在有妙招了你們死定了你們要被挑戰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11327.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11352.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
不只這樣啊114年1月9號部長這個是你下去的嘛然後你邀請各縣市由裸露垃圾堆置的縣市環保局長共同宣示並簽署合作宣言持續透過數位化的管理源頭減量資源回收垃圾場整理及垃圾打包減農我不曉得這個減農這個農的意思是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11354.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11357.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
就是不要裸露啦不要裸露造成環境問題啦那為什麼用這個籠 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11360.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11389.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
就是原來的這個裸露實在很不好看而且造成這個蒼蠅衛生的問題惡臭的問題所以減少這個垃圾場醜陋的容貌啦對對對大包啦我可以這樣解釋嗎是是是減少現在看到很多這個暫時堆置場裸露的醜陋的容貌的垃圾場啦是是等多項措施嘛然後中央跟地方共同合作在114年底前達成妥善解決各件事裸露堆置的問題嘛是當時的嗎是這是年初的 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11390.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11414.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
對,年初的時候那現在年底耶,地方政府環保局,台中市環保局講說沒有招所以你看喔,台中市環保局的局長還是副局長沒有一起跟你們召開這個會嗎?有,前任局長也在這邊那其實我所知道的是他們堆的非常非常的多比大家想像中還要多很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11415.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11433.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以你們1月份也是有邀請他們嘛,對不對?怎麼會年初邀請他們,年底的時候他們有這樣好像發掘到新的一個處理...我小時候...講到自己會覺得說,我怎麼會拿這兩個東西去做比較?問到那個前途都沒有了,真的問到那個前途都沒有了所以你現在在訂指引,有用嗎?沒有用啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11442.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11456.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
絕對沒有,連一個用處都沒有啦再來看,過去騰雍市不是沒有處理啊這個是在前市長的任內,2021年的之前應該是更早,110對2021年,有啊,不是沒有做啊整齊劃一,也不用再減農了啦不用再減少醜陋的熱市場的流氓了現在2025怎麼變這樣啊怎麼現在才會再出妙招 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11472.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11501.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我想打包垃圾基本上當然是要多花一點錢啦因為一路線也是靠環境部的補助四千一百多萬應該還不止啦對不對要更多嘛然後就用這個壓縮護膜去打包的方式那可以減少這樣的醜陋的容貌然後還可以抑制這個惡臭的發生嘛對啊這很久啊很久啊對啊怎麼會變成台中市環保局的妙招 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11503.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11525.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
所以我還是請部長研究相關的計畫更積極的計畫然後是不是一個更妥善的處理方式然後有具體的這樣的一個減料的一個KPI我們呈給我們的委員會大家再來督促好不好好 沒問題一個月內嘛好 謝謝委員謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請王振旭委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11542.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11545.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好 謝謝主席有請彭部長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11549.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11574.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
王偉豪部長好今天排這個題目看起來真的垃圾不分藍綠白大家要共同來關心我們也了解垃圾一直都是台灣民眾非常非常關心的問題那也經過您這兩年來大力的希望能夠透過各種的不管是好的方法或者是好的思維來解決民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11575.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11602.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
每天要製造可是又希望能夠透過政府部門努力來解決的這樣的困難這邊就有三個部分議題要跟部長來討論第一個就是有關於各縣市有在裸露堆積垃圾處理的進度第二部分資源循環跟廢棄物管理的預算是不是有在討整的空間第三個就是強化源頭減量跟資源循環的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11603.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11631.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那有關於今天的重點之一就是各縣市這些裸露堆積垃圾的處理進度剛剛很多委員也都非常非常的關心剛剛劉委員也提到部長那個時候有跟各個地方的環保局長宣示在115年的時候就要把這個裸露垃圾做一個完整的處理或至少要達到一定的目標這個是大家非常關心的那早上口頭報告裡面部長也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11631.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11643.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
目前53座的這個裸露垃圾場已經從53場減了20座只剩下33場那在佔滯量的部分呢從84噸減到60萬噸左右已經雖然預計40萬噸的目標還有一段距離可是至少又在努力的處理當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11651.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11665.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
可是我們看到的報告好像又不太一樣這個是我們今年11月30號的數據就是來自貴部的環境管理署看到其實目標達成率是27.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11668.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11696.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
顯然是有一些落差那這個落差裡面我們比較關心的就是好像各個縣市又不太一樣我們也知道垃圾處理其實是地方主管機關需要努力來達成的目標可是有一些縣市可能也剛好今年有一些風災或相關的這些自然災害造成了影響像台南市或者是像花蓮縣目前的這個達成率好像都掛零 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11697.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11711.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那台中市也是有同樣的掛零的狀況那當然有一些縣市做得非常好包括像屏東縣市100%還有澎湖縣有大達95%那到底為什麼會有這樣的落差是 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11713.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11727.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
出現了哪一些的相關的問題因為事實上當初各縣市的這些衛生主管的局長們也都有共同來開會那這個落差的情形是會造成目前這個狀況是不是有哪一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11728.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11757.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那中央如何能夠進一步來督導協助這部分可以請部長說明好 謝謝委員第一個是像花蓮、台南、台中台中是本身的問題就壓力就很大它的焚化爐其實整個去化然後我所瞭解的他們的垃圾佔據的量比我們想像中看到的數據還要多很多那台南是因為風災那兩個縣是沒有問題很努力積極就是屏東然後嘉義市這兩個已經沒有露天裸露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11757.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11773.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那當然啦現在的情況是說因為我們現在也把錢都下去了然後他們也跟我們承諾未來這幾個月會加速的發包來弄所以裸露的部分應該我希望是可以有一個進度啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11774.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11799.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
因為多了這個20萬噸因為本來是今年要41萬噸年底要41萬噸但是多了20萬噸就是這個天災多了15萬15萬多然後另外一個除以4.5萬這個是年初的時候沒有想到會多得到那麼的多那花蓮的話是因為這次的這個馬太安的事情天災也有一點點影響所以大概是這樣那我覺得我們會努力的再跟各縣市一個一個來來討論來解決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11801.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11820.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
因為這個是每個縣市狀況都不一樣需要個別個別的來給他們鼓勵支持好那部分這部分就麻煩部長多費心因為每一個縣市基本上每個民眾都很期待這個羅洛羅垃圾可以好好的處理因為再過來我們看到就是火警 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11822.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11848.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
剛才陸委員也提到到目前為止至少已經有24起的火警那這個火警要處理真的是非常的困難的同時它對於相關地方所造成的影響真的非常非常的明顯不管是空氣的污染土地水質的污染等等那這部分有沒有除了現有的政策以外部長有沒有心中有哪一些認為需要再積極加強的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11849.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11864.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好 謝謝委員這個因為我上任之後也經歷了幾個火警特別是前幾個禮拜那個台南的烏樹林的這個火警那我當然一開始我們覺得跟大家都一樣覺得說為什麼要燒了那麼久燒那麼久後來現場去看才知道說哇那裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11865.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11887.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
很大 真的很大 裡面的溫度400-500度我們的消防單位很努力在救24小時救很多的車都只能用傳統的方法去做處理所以針對這個 例如說火災的預防我們現在雖然有監控還有灑水設備但是這種大型的掩埋場或是站置場那種處理是我們的經驗是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11889.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11911.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
然後救災的機制也不夠所以我們現在是希望跟這個單位一起來合作把這個方法有沒有新的方法來解決這個問題那這個再給我們一點點時間我們會找一些消防專業的人跟我們的同仁一起來合作協同因為這個是消防署跟我們的這個連結要預防那又未來救火方式也要做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11911.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11931.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
是這個顯然需要更多的專家或者是相關有經驗的人士共同來討論希望能夠具體的把這個火警的部分從預防然後再處理還有後續相關的部分都能夠大家一起努力的來把它處理到一個到位的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11932.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11953.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好 再過來就是有關於預算的部分我記得去年10月份的時候就有跟部長來討論說希望能夠爭取未來循環經濟相關的預算可以增加這個我們很了解吧 因為有好的預算才有辦法把事情做得更為到位那可是我們看到就是這幾年來113年的預算編列出來預算是9億 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11956.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11973.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那今年是7億到明年如果總預算通過的話只剩下更少5億那這一部分是不是在爭取預算上有什麼困難那怎麼應應嗎因為我們知道如何能夠讓這個資源再利用是很重要的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11974.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11975.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以業務執行上不會造成任何衝擊吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12005.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12030.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
在中央部我們在源頭減壓有在爭取經費那對於一些像我們要去做綠色設計或者是循環產品都有一些推動經費來做不過我們也不知道那個時候是新增的預算啊啊等於是新增的預算如果我們預算沒有過我是完全沒辦法執行的就跟我營建剩餘土石坊跟這個智慧圍籬如果我們沒有審預算我1月1號1月2月可能都沒辦法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12030.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12048.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我希望快一點所以我們希望總預算能夠無期來處理對於源頭減量跟資源循環改善的部分剛剛有提到一個很重要的就是有關於固態再生燃料的部分其實很多委員都很關心包括在座的土耳其議員我也跟他討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12049.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12076.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
針對這個SRF如何能夠讓民眾更有信心知道說他們所可能以為跟所謂的這個焚化爐的使用有一些誤解的部分那如何能夠讓民眾更有信心的來做這方面的理解跟未來可以爭取所有民眾可以共同支持因為這個是一個很重要的一個在利用的一個好的機制那這部分可不可以請部長也在這裡再說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12078.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12098.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好謝謝委員因為SRF其實我還沒上任前就知道這個爭議實在太大而且缺乏管理的機制那經過這一年多我們這個特別是一家一家去體檢一家一家看然後找出問題然後找專家提出一個方法而且提出了一個白皮書未來怎麼發展現在也會定期去做監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12099.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12120.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那當然啦我們是以台灣的現在量能其實有些SRF的廠我們還是希望各個縣市首長能夠讓他能夠順利去推展不然該縣市的這個SRF或是垃圾處理都會出問題所以我們是鼓勵在做那有些的這個SRF的這個使用廠他其實我們也期待說如果地方有希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12122.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12141.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
嚴格的標準我們也鼓勵他所以目前我們也有這樣的一個溝通但是因為裡面的許可權都還是要在地方政府的身上我們未來一定會負責把關只會更嚴希望他更好過去的各位的疑慮現在我可以說已經顯著的改善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12141.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12157.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
是 我們希望好的政策可以讓它如期得到民眾的支持那最後其實就是有關於這個加護廚餘因為突然每一天會增加593噸的這個加護廚餘那有沒有短中長期的一些想法跟做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12157.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12177.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好謝謝委員第一個是說我們大概整個平衡量能平衡會還要在一年多的時間完全balance不用進到焚化爐燒我們是希望不要進到焚化爐燒因為這個處於是一種資源所以當然有一些增加的一個措施現在都在開展當中這第一個但是現在短期 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12177.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12205.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
因為要把不要未租所以這個去化要到焚化爐還是有我們會密切的監控那另外一個呢是這種設施的興建我們已經在鼓勵地方政府在做了還有一個最重要就是源頭減量所以包含了這個如何去設計一個更好更有效的不是只有宣導式的洗石或是整個源頭減量的一個策略這個是最重要的那這個部分我們現在正在規劃當中希望這個一兩個月內可以提出來一個更具體的甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12205.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12227.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
剛剛也有委員建議說是不是有一些像比照歐盟的法規其實我們都有在讀但是畢竟台灣從來沒有對食物浪費好好的去做規劃那我們也希望我們可以提出來但是這個提出來之後就像說這次的廚餘其實就要變成成本了以後廚餘就是有成本了大家也不大習慣一樣所以這個部分真的是需要一個轉型啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12227.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12246.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好那如果討論有決議或者是內容的話也麻煩提供給我們辦公室來做一個參考那最後一點就是剛有提到全國醫療機構相關的這些在利用的部分我們也發現每日床的這個總費器物生產量其實過去這幾年還是有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12247.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12269.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
逐步的增加當中從105年的2.97公斤每日到13年的3.58它只是看起來好像數字沒有那麼驚人事實上那個量其實也是蠻大的那再利用率也有稍微增加那我其實在今年的3月份也麻煩部長還有那個時候的邱部長也一起去林口長庚做考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12269.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12278.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那這部分目前兩個部會有沒有積極的在研討針對這個醫療廢棄物如何再利用的部分有做哪一些的討論跟加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12279.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12301.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那剛委員報告那我們就是在今年有個綠色醫療方案那其中就是把醫院裡面他有些廢棄物那有沒有可以再盤點那分類之後那可以來這個滅菌就進行再量那就不用去焚化了所以這邊都有在做那我們有今年有去大型先從這個醫學中心的醫院先去做起那今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12302.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12325.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
大概全數已經都可以來參與我們這些免疫災難的工作了是 所以大型醫院 醫療機構都有共同來參與是 那我們希望因為醫療都會幾乎其實造成的影響會越來越明顯貴部是需要好好的來加強輔導或者是協助醫療機構共同來處理這邊的部分好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝王振旭委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12332.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12348.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
請圖權級委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12353.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12379.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
土耳原好部長我們現在有預計2027我們廚藝養豬是全面要退場那在2028針對我們焚化掩埋到時候也是要歸零對不對我們預計的期程大概是這樣其實歸零的話應該在兩年多後就會歸零就是差不多2028我是希望可以快一點啦例如說廚藝的量可以減少源頭減量會更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12380.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12397.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以到時候我們大宗大宗的部分大部分會變成堆肥然後再來還有什麼生殖能等等嘛那我們上一次也有到我們未還委員會也有到桃園去考察針對我們生殖能中心還有民間廚餘去化的機構去考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12400.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12426.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那我們那時候有看到我們民間廚餘去化這個機構它佔地面積又小而且它三個小時就可以把廚餘去化變成堆肥那它液體的部分可以做有機的營養液那固體的部分它可以做有機的肥料而且它這個是我們中興大學跟中研院產學合作的成果那而且它一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12427.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12444.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
處理的量能可以到100噸甚至可以更高那針對這部分部長對這個技術覺得如果說我們到時候進廚藝是不是這個部分應該要去大力推廣一下包委我上禮拜也去那個廠看過了那其實第一個是說它的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12445.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12474.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這個早溢的部分其實它是有用的可是現在變成是廢棄物去做處理也讓它的這個整個去化的成本這個一噸大概要五千六百塊所以我們現在會協調我們已經跟那個農業部有在協調說如何把那個去化做更有效的利用不要把它當成廢棄物啦這個我們在談但是農業部那邊有一些原來法規上的一個限制所以目前我們正在協調當中那我是希望像這個廠商它可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12475.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12496.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
讓它可以更好就可以更成功的解決廚藝去化的問題因為現在是我們政策的問題啦它本來所有的這些廚餘它可以百分之百的廚餘而且沒有碳排沒有汙染可以做成有機營養液然後固體的又做有機肥料剛剛部長講到一個重點它本來這個有機營養液其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12498.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12521.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
養豬業者拿回去加熱以後就可以餵豬可是因為現在我們政策問題以後廚藝不能去餵豬所以它的有機營養液反而變成就像剛剛部長講的它變成沒有用的所以它變成要去找污水處理所以它現在面臨很大的問題成本又提高那還有一個我們污水處理的量能也是問題對 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12523.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12549.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
各位有報告,其實不只只有它,包含桃園的生殖能中心其實它也有這樣的早疫的問題,那我們的確是希望能夠來解決那當然農業部陳部長也跟我在討論那他們那邊正在處理,在協調當中我們希望可以盡快有一些方案,讓這些產業降低它的成本因為是不是資源,是不是廢棄物,就是在法規的解釋跟認定上面有一個更好的協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12550.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12576.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以因為他現在也碰到一個問題因為那時候非洲豬瘟他們為了幫地方政府處理這個廚餘結果這個廚餘它有機營養育又不能拿去養豬又當作汙水處理那所以這部分可能農業部經濟部跟環境部應該要好好的協調一下經濟部處理這個汙水處理廠這個量能他也達不到有時候要迅速處理可能又超標結果他變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12578.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12602.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
幫地方政府處理廚餘結果因為這個污水的濃度太高結果變成他排放出來又被罰錢可是如果他全部要達標可能有一個成本還有他量能上都會有問題所以我說我們現在禁用這廚餘這個技術真的是很好所以就像部長講這個有機營養液真的要好好規劃一下不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12603.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12618.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
明明是可以用的東西本來加熱以後就可以養豬結果現在變成汙水處理成本又提高然後汙水量能又不夠如果量能要夠可能它的濃度又達標超過它的標準又會被罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12619.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12647.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
所以這部分是不是應該我們跨部份來研議一下對對我們現在正在處理這個事情也跟委員報告因為最近天氣冷喔那個火鍋或羊肉爐等等那個油脂特別高所以那個水汙染處理的也告訴我說那個都是一層油啊都是我們大家吃的這個油啦其實那個油我覺得都可以再回收再處理的所以現在的就是法規上面的認定還有大家的協商還有一些狀況所以我們現在正在努力希望可以解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12648.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12664.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
所以看起來這個業者讓我們感覺到廚藝你看它可以百分之百的利用所以基本上它不是廢棄物那只是說我們如果用技術去把它變成有用的東西那現在我們因為雖然說還有一年2027才說 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12668.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12687.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
不用廚餘養豬可是我發現這個這個政策一宣布之後很多地方政府也在反映其實現在很多養豬業者完全都不收了很多的業者民眾都說現在的廚餘業者以前都會去他們那邊收現在完全開始都不收所以變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12688.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12706.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
他可能知道說往後都不收可能他本來要買珍珠這些設備現在他都不買啦因為他知道再過一年一年多都不能使用所以其實現在除於地方業者就已經沒有在收了不知道部長知不知道這個情形知道很清楚所以現在大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12707.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12726.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
跟這個各個縣市環保局、農業局申請這個可以持續徵組的監控的大概已經有100多家了所以基本上我們預估可能會有大概將近一半左右會可能會退場因為農業部給他們變成飼料養豬的這個福利還蠻好的所以基本上未來這個慢慢的確會變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12727.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12748.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那這段時間這個交接轉換轉型的這個期間就需要大家來努力啦那我們其實一直不斷的在跟協助地方縣市環保局一直在協調這個事情因為有些可能這個團散或是餐廳它無法去去化就會產生一些壓力那目前我們真的在解決這個事所以廚藝的問題可能不是到2027再處理現在就要面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12751.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12770.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
但是也跟委員報告其實現在到年底之前我們是有補助費用的然後到了明年之後就會因為1月1號開始可以這個處於養豬嘛那還有一年的時間所以我認為壓力會是在明年的年底的時候這個大轉型那個會是另外一波那我們現在就要來準備未來的事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12770.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12774.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
好希望我們農業部環境部經濟部那部長院是屬於這個中央儲管機關這個部分應該趕快跨部會跟我們研議來解決這個問題好謝謝那還有針對我們現在促進資源循環 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12785.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12810.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那我們促進資源循環在2024年8月30號我們有成立8加N資源循環的產業聯盟那現在已經滿一年多了那部長那時候你有說產值在2030年的時候要達到3700億元那現在我們環境部在這一部分我們到底是屬於被動還是主動去輔導這個產業鏈的成立的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12812.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12823.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
包委員我們是主動的因為其實剛剛那時候是他們統計的數字那我們最近用德國的方法來算我們台灣的循環經濟現在是去年是1688億循環經濟那我們只佔了我們選擇幾個重點能夠來合作現在大概有10個聯盟了吧我們請署長來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12831.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12846.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好那我們現在在各個聯盟呢分別就主題來這個做一些交換意見包括說法規或者說他們有些在這個循環產品的銷售那一起來共同討論那如果他有些資金問題我們有一個綠辦有一個資金的一個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12850.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12867.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
所以這個署長應該知道因為我們有共同去參加他們資源回收全國這個大會他們業者也都非常關心我們環境部現在到底針對這個期程然後指標到底要做到什麼程度我們是不是將來是不是一樣要推動資源循環促進法 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12869.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12884.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
是是那資訊權推動法對我們要促進這些產業的發展是非常重要的所以希望能夠得到那個大運的支持對因為這部分我們回收產業其實我們有個很關鍵的就是貴金屬資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12885.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12911.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那很多的民間業者我覺得我們環境部應該要推動請他們加入因為他們應該是將來我們關鍵的貴金屬的國家隊那我們針對這部分我希望部長能夠讓明確讓我們知道我們要如何推動民間產業成為8加N產業聯盟的成員那如何讓我們這部分環境部針對未來這個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12914.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12938.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
可不可以明確的讓我們知道可不可以提供這些計畫讓我們知道好委員說的承辦窗口沒有問題我們其實有一個其實這個是整個循環署在推動的事那你剛才說到的這個例如說稀有貴金屬或是重金屬那個貴金屬的一個回收也是我們的主力的要點我們現在就在密集的在跟一些相關的業者在討論當中那我必須說我們現在是先找幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12939.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12966.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
很重要的最重要的這個錫櫃金屬貴氣金屬叫貴氣金屬在討論當中那未來我們會再更開放的來更多人來參與因為這裡面的水很深我們會一個一個來掌握這個狀況對因為現在業者認為說針對廢棄物回收有明確的法令去處理你看針對資源回收他們連這個窗口他們都搞不清楚然後這個法令上好像也不是很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12967.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12986.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以是不是可以盡快針對我們資源回收的部分而且這對我們台灣喔回收這個貴金屬我覺得也非常的重要所以這部分應該是不是要好好的盡快來規劃是不是有明確的計畫可以提供給我們辦公室好沒有問題謝謝委員好那針對今天我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12987.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13004.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
針對我們垃圾掩埋的部分那我想請問一下喔那部長之前我們有去桃園市考察喔我了解一下這個進度啦我們當初有去考察陽梅的原本垃圾掩埋場還有我們觀音寶藏的 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13005.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13016.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
垃圾掩埋場那他都是戰志嘛是那部長也有講說明年底就會退場那是不是這個部分是不是確定可以如期進行來解決我們地方垃圾掩埋場的問題報告委員桃園的部分他們很積極在面對我也給他們很大的肯定那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13024.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13037.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那次我們去的時候里長在那邊我也拉著里長的手明年我們一起去看把那個至少沒有裸露的情況我們目前掌握的進度是正如期會完工那也希望明年年底的時候我們這個時候帶那個里長去見證我們一起來見證 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13040.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13064.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那明年底退場是整個覆蓋完成覆蓋完成然後那當然了桃園的環保局是更積極的我們我們的標準第一個打包第二個是覆土那他們是可能會更積極來做處理那這個還是要看他們最後的結果但是至少在附近絕對不會有那種聞到味道這種蒼蠅一大堆的問題應該會顯著的地方民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13066.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13094.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
還是希望都能夠能夠拿去焚化移除焚化處理掉對但是因為桃園的量還是有一點點緊張桃園的量還是因為桃園的那個那兩個焚化爐他其實剛好平衡而已那他還有事業廢棄物還是有點不大夠所以基本上呢如果說桃園未來還可以更積極的SRF可能等發展的更完整我希望速度可以更快好那希望針對這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13095.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13124.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
部長也答應說明年底一定要退場所以最基本的部分還是要把它完成對對對我們至少要把附近的居民的生活品質可以可以變好這是我們所要的目標對啊不然你一些惡臭啊蒼蠅啊什麼完全非常嚴重影響他們的生活是是是好這部分那部長你要講明年底一定都對明年底也要請委員我們一起再去考察應該可以恢復原狀讓里長開心一點希望明年底我們是去驗收成果是是是好謝謝謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13128.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13129.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
主席好我們一樣請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13147.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13156.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
邱委員好部長好我看你們今天的書面報告到今年10月底全國的戰資產從112年的84萬噸下降為65.8萬噸那也就是說已經處理了23.2萬噸那大概27%啦那我想問一下就是說你明年年底的這個承諾有沒有辦法完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13171.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13188.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
目前我們還是照原來的承諾往上走雖然原來應該更積極是四十一萬噸但是因為台南還有包含的廚餘多了大概快二十萬噸所以我們 這是六四三欸這是六四三 也蠻長的 露天裸露你們是怎麼樣 就是打包它 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13189.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13204.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
第一個是打包第二個是這個把它覆土掩埋覆土等於是活化再活化再利用基本上如果未來這個焚化爐那個量能夠的話還是希望他可以把它去化掉啦但是這個你要打包你要放到什麼時候這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13206.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13222.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
如果打包的話如果焚化爐啟動的話因為未來大概兩三年後這個焚化爐應該有一些餘裕那就可以來做焚化的處理所以現在是控管住了這個狀況現在還有33個露天的你明年能完成應該是沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13223.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13238.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
好 那如果我們是希望就是說你們說到做到那當然我也希望說這個你打包之後也不能說把它丟在那邊就不管了那政府應該有一個具體的一個做法那你期待是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13240.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13261.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
例如說以台南來說的話台南當時也是含在裡面嗎是是是因為他們的這個晨曦的掩埋場量還蠻大的然後他的焚化爐未來幾個月應該有機會會新的可以啟動那如果舊的還繼續留著的話應該有辦法助益於去化他的這個不會越處理越多啦不會不會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13261.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13286.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那我再問一下就是在高雄那個亂到垃圾的案發生很多青鳥在吹上面說至少高雄是有出面處理其他縣市暫制垃圾一直都沒有處理把亂到垃圾跟垃圾場裡的暫制垃圾混淆在一起那不小心就把這個情況怪到我們環境部頭上去那我替你很抱歉但是我看到今天的報告說還有剩下60.8萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13288.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13303.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那都集中在新竹台南及南投三個縣市現在是哪邊最多應該是台南還有新竹台南台南是因為這個11月底又暴增17萬噸是風災之後的垃圾嗎是風災的垃圾有沒有包含這個烏蘇林戰志場的這個垃圾場 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13308.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13337.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
沒有包括所以烏樹林就不含在這裡面了對對對那個我們是算是這個露天裸露的那個戰事場沒有算在裡面因為那個本來就未來這幾個月就會去化完成那我看到你們有去那個什麼日本考察這個經驗制定大型災害廢棄物戰事場的防災安全指引那消防安全管理原則分區堆放及進出場管理原則提供地方依循請問你提供給地方了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13337.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13355.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
還沒有因為我們還在研議因為日本是很理想但是在台灣我們的災後的量因為日本其實從發生災害你災害發生的時候你家裡面的器具各方面都要做好分類我們是沒有在分類的所以等於是整個就變成大垃圾出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13355.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13367.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那你展示的時候不會順便做一次分類嗎很困難現實例如說以花蓮花蓮那個光復香其實那個整個就一起出來了全部混在一起你沒有辦法分類的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13369.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13397.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那到後面要怎麼處理所以基本上這樣就是變成一個很大的困難所以我們現在一直在觀察說很大困難還是要有個辦法對 基本上那個當然先進國家有一些好的做法我們會來做參考啦因為我們通常遇到災害的時候基本上所有垃圾所有東西就混在一起了那當然就造成台南那個事件還是要引以為禁啦因為這個萬一發生火災這個真是後果不堪設想我希望環境部盡快來妥善處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13398.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13421.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那另外全國失業廢棄物處理及營建產出物的管理那我們今年我們台灣一直再度爆發這個垃圾大戰那主要就是當時我們蔡英文總統改變失業廢棄物的處理政策導致每年有高達數百萬噸的失業廢棄物進到一般的焚化爐排擠到一般家庭垃圾的妥善處理率 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13422.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13430.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那我看經濟部的報告十個園區十七處環保用地請問目前該開辦事業廢棄物專門處理這個設施進度到哪裡這是不是請展發書 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13440.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13457.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
目前的這個17處的環保用地現在只剩下有兩處現在正在待釋出但是這兩個部分的話剛好環境部限時有在推動這個氣候科技的這個環保計畫我們這兩處的話大概是預備做這兩個計畫的使用那其他的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13463.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13469.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
其他部分目前都已經有在做這個環保用地的使用已經開始使用了那什麼時候可以完全落實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13470.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13492.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
完全落實我們現在就是我剛剛講這17個裡面有15個現在都已經落實他們這個用途的使用了他們的就是就地處理原則都一樣嗎每個都一樣對都是就地來處理依據那個費金華的那另外我們進一步成立的北中南觀音張濱還有大發展這個大發產業園區三個有害事業廢棄物處理的示範場目前的運作狀況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13505.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13525.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
北中南就是我們在那個桃園張濱跟高雄的三個那個有害事業費目前都是順利運作當中那年處理量是多少年處理量會依照當那個有害事業費去入的量每年會有變化所以他的量是無限擴大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13526.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13546.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
沒有 他還是有一個上限啦 比如說我們的那個南區的處理量能 大概這三區啦 能不能滿足現在的問題現在所有廢棄物處理的這個問題目前是沒有問題的 處理都夠就對了已經開始做了嘛好 那接下來我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13548.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13575.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
這個越來越多的糧田餘溫山谷像得了癌症一步一步死去那危害到臺灣的農業與環境那兇手其實就是我們營建工程產生的這個廢棄物與剩餘土石方四處濫盜像美濃天坑倒採完砂石就被偷埋營建廢棄物與土石混合物這當中最主要的破口其實我想中央有同一個規範各縣市的做法不一樣才會導致輕易業者和非法車隊土資廠業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13577.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13599.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
串成這個三角的這個犯罪鏈那部長認為這個問題出在哪裡出在很多的面向例如說我們的去化量不夠然後第二個是過去的管理這個其實從台灣幾十年來不是都有裝GPS嗎沒有土石方的部分沒有土石方沒有然後那我們破獲的幾個案例都是有一些未來會裝嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13601.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13619.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
會來全面要裝然後另外一個智慧圍籬然後把它加強監管以後抓到會更容易被抓到你擔不擔心他們裝了這個GPS然後到土資場落場一拳然後就跑掉包委員我們以後會連結警政單位的CCTV所以這個部分不會有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13620.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13634.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
對這個還是要去防止啦那我也看到其實有很多問題就是說有一些房子就是建商他在蓋房蓋大樓的時候那一些土其實是乾淨的土啦那很多現在也其實全台灣都沒地方去啊是這個怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13635.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13661.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
未來我們會鼓勵限地能不能能夠做好一些分類因為它就是沒有分類才變得廢棄因為有時候你說完全沒有垃圾百分之百是好像不太可能那可能有一些參雜到你們有沒有一個比例的一個原則有的但是我們是希望因為像這個這個機關署他們現在舊的大樓拆掉其實在限地就分類的很好然後就不是說新建的新建的 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13661.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13685.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
新建的部分我們當然現在沒有辦法還沒有一個規範出來他只是挖地下室而已啊對啊但是他撈起來可能有一些垃圾或者是有一些那個磚塊啊什麼的是那個都有一定的分類的一個標準例如說磚塊是磚塊R多少類D什麼類等於是大概都有那當然我們是希望以後源頭可以分類得更好但現在這個還是沒地方去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13685.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13705.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
基本上當然現在的確是有問題尤其是我們鄉下很多農民他會其實有一些他的農地他需要改良或者是這個時候就可以給他們利用嘛對不對那這個是地方政府的管轄基本上這個是地方政府要管轄他決定就可以了那因為這個管理是地方政府但是很多地方政府他其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13706.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13728.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
並沒有特別去做一些平台所以以後的這個土資平台在各地方政府我們特別有找了這個幾個自己去化量能不夠的地方要先成立一個平台所以我們都談好了那就是明年的預算然後我們這個預計是明年的預算就可以來推動做這個事情我們照今年的辦法都已經弄好了都寫掉好了就是明年1月1號開動 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13732.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13754.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
因為我看到這其實很多問題啦就是還有一些土地廠它也在賣證明的問題所以這個已經不是應該已經是公開的一個訊息所以我覺得環境部應該把這個整個會碰到的問題做一個整體的一個規範讓各縣市政府好遵循這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13754.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13769.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
可以 也請委員幫忙因為這個明年我們各縣市都談好了他們要成立一個土資的聯合的一個辦公室都副市長來宰主持那也請委員多幫我們忙因為這個明年的新增的預算好 可是你們要我們立法院通知要趕快給我們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13771.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13794.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我們才可以幫你們審預算啊我也要趕快幫我們審啊你沒有編我怎麼審我們要的都沒編啊我們已經給了啊給在哪裡啊已經給到立法院了送到立法院錢沒給該給的錢沒給這不是你責任來的你不要腳步進來啦是是是還有最後這個除以禁止養豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13796.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13823.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那我看到你剛剛聽我也聽到剛剛有講就是說你兩年後要完全的禁止嘛對嘛一年後一年後一年後那現在還是可以用就對了現在還可以用但是加護的不能用我苗栗縣有一場他是一個年輕人他自己在做了一個我們叫做這個真主中心共同真主對那他當初是響應政府的政策那我們環境部這邊如果進的時候他怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13824.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13851.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
第一個這個問題我也跟農業部討論過基本上按照現有的法規是不可以但是其實以農業部來說的話他對於植物性的殘渣這個事業的持續是沒有盡的所以他未來我覺得他可以轉型就跟可能現在的狀況不一樣這個政府能夠介入因為他當初也是配合政府的政策然後一個年輕人創業其實不容易然後他投資其實也 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13852.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13853.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
謝謝邱振軍委員發言接下來請謝龍介委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13888.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13905.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
主席我請保長請彭部長委員好保長你好我請教你,你不知道多少年了嗎?十年前你訪問老總統,專訪你跟他說你跟蔣介石到底有什麼關係?有有嗎?有啊他跟你說什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13914.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13931.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我沒記啊你沒記啊他跟你說我吃兩塊非敵非友啊非敵非友那個訪問我有看見所以我在議會跟他問我說我們兩個這麼好你怎麼會說我們兩個非敵非友我就說非敵即是友非友即是敵所以起碼我們兩個是不是亦敵亦友 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13944.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13952.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
他都不敢給我贏啦 潘晟贏啦對不對 同時我們笑眉眉 去到你那裡就不敢變成非敵非友我想你看他這麼好 你要了解他對著這個環境聽取的這種心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13965.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13973.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
包括天坑也好 包括剛才我不知道說區議員在說是苗栗對這塊石頭的土豐沒有關係嗎 不應該是這樣你說你有變一條巫繩 這塊石本來就是土豐的主軟 這叫土頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13985.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14004.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
只要他阿伯有企圖 叫做土匪土頭跟土匪綜合 應該各縣市都有這個健管單位都有這個申請 也都有管理萬一今天沒有土匪 你把他收回的時候他會有一個堆置場 包括各縣市有一些資源回收場 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14006.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14021.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
沒有那樣的管理也沒有那樣的統合為什麼你們環境部一直沒有去做這個統合這是不對的國管局如果可以看要做統合今天市安專業會有這麼多違規的事情會發生土地噴射土汽土風土汽土酒甚至這些人在出發的時候你環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14036.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14048.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
是不是要建議交通部在這個違規啦我告訴你所有 我們剛才講這麼多違規包括以前你去台南看的對峙 戰車場那些東西都需要卡車來運輸 你知道嗎沒有卡車他們就拖不走這個卡車基本上都三五檔基本上都有GPS啦車行 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14067.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14073.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
去到檢測官啊他要請我的請我是去宰而已啊跟我有關的啊如果我是請你宰土豐結果 告別啊是宰本事宰廢棄物去到不應該棄的所在你們是不是要看保肥協調解像這種就應該跟他吊牌啊因為只有吊牌他們才會怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14097.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14103.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
只有把他的牌調起來 他沒有偽姓的工具那書記他就不敢換這個法律那書記不想用我的牌 我也不想用客家的牌去陪你拚啊你很敢犯科技賠 你賺大錢 我給你賺一個運輸而已運輸是我去加油 我應該做 我也合理的理順來做而已我是跟你代工的 但是你知不知道檢測官過去這些案件都怎麼破案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14129.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14133.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
普通我告訴你 都是問書記比較問到真相的書記都知道真相 所有插隊的書記 他們都知道真相所以這個管理 你要落實的管理 你自己坐在那裏整天要怎麼管 鹽果腐出狗餐啦 我不騙你 但是對症下藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14152.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14161.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
只要從頭到尾把它鎖住 臉頰把它頂住我跟你說 它不可以亂打 它不可以亂打你像你剛才說的 套過GPS要抓你很簡單的檢測官破案是這樣來的所以只要這裡結合起來 我看違規軟斗的人 相隔這個可以減80%以上你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14177.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14205.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
報告委員我們除了GPS的外所有的CCTV然後都會弄然後另外一個呢是現在很多的狀況是抓到司機可是發不了錢因為都脫產了或是指的斷到哪裡不是嘛 我跟你說的意思就是你要把他吊牌車要吊牌 駕駛要吊牌就像我們現在在高速公路超速我們你看他們的助力我問問 再來都去用吊牌超速的喔這樣他就會怕了民間也很多人去用吊牌喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14206.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14207.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
還要吊腳喔我告訴你在亂世要用擋電因為你的環保現在是亂世之中還有這個噴的事情很嚴重噴現在都沒辦法去化我剛才有跟擔保長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14223.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14242.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這甘肝胃 趕快把它噴可以化作滴的治療他說他一個月前已經去日本看了我有要求他在一個月內 提出甘肝胃臭泡的原理報告台灣要怎麼可以把這個噴 再度化肥 違法雖然新聞會提供技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14243.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14256.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
但是 它可以真的化作滴的治療那麼這是你會怕的 我跟你說 噴現在國管局只有營養額參加 一個沒要修我看你們補助地方的這個噴就去做堆備了你們沒有就失誤了 沒錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14266.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14274.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
後悔後悔衝啊 包括婚娶啊都沒有合標準啊做一個報告給你們協商說有啦你們補助者我們就怎樣都在跟你騙你知道嗎都在跟你騙 我現在跟你說這樣就是有禁錮 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14279.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14294.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
你拿給我,我來看真的嗎?你拿給我國管局,你補助他去做堆肥補助他那麼多錢去買機械、分水機、廖澳去發工空氣沒處理,炒魚或是三星那些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14298.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14311.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
不要騙我啦 都在騙你的啦你問他 什麼就知道了對不對 你不知道喔我告訴你 我比較告訴你委員給我 我們請同仁來查 沒問題你不然就擠進去 放在下面就在那裡罵嘛會啦 會啦那委員你就給我還有喔 那次你去看那個對市場的火燒我告訴你喔台南市的消防就中了4隻啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14329.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14339.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
他在第一時間就給環保局建議大型的機構一定要告他我靠我大炮他沒有這樣做我們在那裡都很清楚現在去退休的這裡也沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14341.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14353.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
但是要怎麼挽救?例如說你要全台灣做一個大型的佔地場要怎麼分類、要怎麼企劃拼命未來再度發生這種災難空氣汙染非常嚴重所以在這裡跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14362.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14388.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
以台南市這個個人 重新做一個檢討是 你提出你現在的計畫還沒出來這要時間因為我們也要跟各縣市環保局也要來溝通然後我們自己也要提出一個也要找專家來討論這個要多久的時間我們預計是二月底二月底會對外公佈現在其實我們內部有一些初步的這個建議方案但是我覺得還可以更好一點我是感覺說你如果在外地要公佈你這裡外地先分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14392.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14400.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
粗暴的,你們的價位啦,我可以給你提供很多意見,我有便宜謝謝謝謝謝龍介委員發言,接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席,我們請部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14425.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14444.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我想請教就是說我們現在除於禁止養豬那有一個緩衝期差不多緩衝一年的時間我也看到就是說像彰化縣他們就建議就是說因為就只有一年的時間所以就建議就是說你們現在有補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14444.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14472.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
就是珍珠的這個設備那目前彰化縣他申請的是沒有沒有租場沒有養豬場申請那我想請教就是說像這樣子的話我們當然希望就是說這個非洲豬瘟不能也不可以再次來因為這個真的影響的產業真的非常的大兩千億的這樣的一個產業那我想請教就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14473.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14493.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
部長就是說我們現在目前遇到了一些困難就是說學校學校你應該也看到這幾天學校這個因為廚餘那營養午餐的廚餘那老師彰化這邊老師或者校長都要押這個廚餘車到固定的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14494.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14523.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那也引起學校老師的這個反彈那我想請教就是說因為我們從這個非洲豬瘟發生10月份到現在其實我在這個質詢台上面也因為這個一直提到這個廚餘的這個問題也提到了四五次那我想請教就是說地方跟中央這邊應該要有一些合作的關係那你如果說請這些這個教職這些老師或者是校長要去押 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14524.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14540.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這個廚餘車到固定的點或者是壓到這個垃圾場其實我覺得這都不應該那所以部長你看到這樣的一個這個消息之後那你有跟地方政府有什麼樣的希望說可以可以再怎樣的去處理這樣子營養午餐的這個廚餘的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14546.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14565.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
謝謝委員因為其實彰化我們上禮拜四跟彰化各縣市都有開會那彰化環保局大概是目前整體是沒問題但是他們那個老是送的部分他們很快就做一些修正那現在彰化有一個情況是因為養豬的縣府其實也主動說不要不要都不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14567.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14583.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
所以基本上我所知道的環保局有協助他們說原來的養豬的清運業者轉型成清除業來解決短暫的銜接的一個問題所以他們正在做這個事情但是這個可能還有一點點時間我們希望越短越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14584.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14601.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
是好那其實我是覺得說金錢要快一點啦要不然這個廚餘的問題確實是一個很大壓力啦真的是很大的壓力再來就是說如果現在成本都提高了這個清運的這個成本都提高了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14602.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14616.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
南寶就是說未來會亂到這個有可能發生可能就是會亂到到那個深山那個那個山谷底下我之前在這個質詢台上面也有特別提到就是說有一些廢棄物就是被亂到在 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14617.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14632.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那個深山裡面的山谷就直接倒下去那如果現在廚餘的這個清運的成本又提高的話難保未來這個廚餘也是會被亂倒所以我希望就是說環境部跟地方政府針對這部分應該要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14634.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14653.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
更明確的一個方式廚餘的一個處理方式那這個不要不要再有第二次的對環境的第二次的一個傷害也跟委員報告我在很多次我大概有三次的場合都拜託縣市首長還有六都的首長一定要嚴防這個亂到的問題因為這個執行是他們在執行那這個他們也都說沒問題他們會加緊來處理那當然啦我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14660.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14675.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
我們如果照過去因為我們原來每年這個平均是一天是2100噸那現在是因為這個疫情的關係除疫情等於降到1700表示我們有進步的空間所以如果說我們源頭如果真的在落實減量甚至我們的這個團散 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14676.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14705.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
是不是可以做得更好吃讓小朋友吃光光不要三成都變成廚餘變成去餵豬變成我們去化的難題這個都是我們可能在源頭管理就可以做的地方這個部分我們近期也會提出說更強力的或是更積極的這個食食或食農教育那這個是跨部會我們會來做那也希望委員跟我們一些建議這個部長你剛剛講到重點就是營養午餐很多學生會覺得說營養午餐不好吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14706.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14731.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
營養可是不好吃所以差不多三成左右就變成廚餘所以我覺得剛剛部長提到就是說應該也要跨部會去協助是不是能夠讓營養午餐更好吃當然好吃也要兼顧營養那今天很可惜就是教育部沒有派人來所以我希望說未來這個部分應該我覺得如果說可以讓營養午餐更美味的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14732.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14758.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
其實我覺得這個廚餘應該可以減少或者是能夠更精準的怎麼去計算每個學生他的量是多少讓廚餘能夠減少我覺得這個應該可以更仔細的去計算我覺得最重要是讓營養午餐變好吃其實我們看到日本有一部電影它就是讓廚師把營養午餐變好吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14761.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14771.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
我覺得這個真的是跨部會要去討論的一件事情其實如果可以把源頭減量我覺得多多少少對我們廚餘的區劃確實是有很大的幫助因為我也問了很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14777.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14800.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
學校特別是中小學那他們告訴我說很難因為要營養就不好吃要好吃就不營養但是我有問到一些學校他的廚餘量很少的所以我們現在會把好的案例讓大家都知道因為這個事情發生其實在10月11月的時候我都有打電話給鄭部長請教育部預作準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14803.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14820.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
那我們未來呢也會跟那個教育部來討論說如何解決這個問題因為廚餘在台例如說以我上禮拜去桃園桃園一天的這個團扇就40噸全國大概300噸這個量實在太大所以我就提醒教育部一定要來解決這個問題不然的話他以後就要編經費去處理廚餘的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14823.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14838.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
那部長我想請教因為今天就教育部沒人來我再請教就是說其實這個學校的這個團善業者他們原本用這個餐車把這個營養午餐載到學校那現在目前的狀況是他們可能租不到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14839.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14859.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
除雨車處理除雨的這個車子嗎所以有的就直接用這個餐車又再除雨再到這個固定的點那像這樣子的話其實會有一個衛生的這個問題就我覺得這個應該也是環境部跟地方政府大家要再去討論的這個餐車不應該再去再除雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14860.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14879.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我覺得這個會有一個衛生安全的這個問題我覺得這一點要再去考慮一下另外我想請教就是說環境部目前就是提供這個廚餘焚化補貼聽說是只有到今年年底到年底那未來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14880.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14908.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
未來的話其實也不知道會不會我們如果要真的要廚餘減量要其實廚餘跟我們一般餐廳的垃圾都是一樣他要處理的費用的我認為我們不能夠補貼這個是一個道義跟責任這個造成食物浪費這是每個人的責任本來就應該有價的所以但是這個大家不習慣如何做得更好我們目前也在討論做這個事情要應該可能要加大讓大家知道體會的一個力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14909.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14913.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以我覺得這個如果只有補貼到今年的話那明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14917.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14944.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我覺得會是一個很大的問題基本上家戶沒有受影響因為家戶都是清潔隊在收的沒有影響主要是餐廳餐廳跟團善那這個部分呢因為他們現在還是可以未租所以目前未來明年沒有問題但是可能後年就是另外一個壓力可是張化你像這個真主的這個部分就是幾乎沒有跟你們申請就是真主的那個設備嘛的補助嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14945.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14960.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那像這樣子的話彰化就進廚餘養豬了對那所以這個就是會有一個問題對等於是彰化的餐廳業者他可能是提早會遇到這個這個可能的這個廚餘量他就必須要努力的減少不然的話會變成他的一個成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14962.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14976.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
對 所以我覺得說未來這個廚餘 我覺得很難實施就頭痛的事情啦再就是說廚餘處理的價格會往上提嘛那可能第一個會壓縮到整個營養午餐的這個費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14978.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15003.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
也跟委員報告目前廚餘的這個處理大概是一頓大概可能是3000塊到5000塊左右有的便宜一點如果我們未來如果各種的新的方式可以起來的話希望可以往下降但是也因為有這樣的這個價格存在也讓我們這個所謂的廚餘的處理的業者會越來越多所以我們是這樣在看這個問題但是我必須說大家一開始現在這個時間要轉型期間有一點不能適應 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15004.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15028.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那部長再來就是說我們廚餘怎麼讓它變成有價值的就是剛剛委員有提到就是說把它轉成飼料我覺得這個也是一個方式啦另外就是說我們之前在委員會的時候我有帶各位去看這個黑水盲那彰化目前碰到一個問題就是黑水盲這個處理的地方很臭所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15029.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15055.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
民眾抗議連續在上禮拜跟上上禮拜就附近的居民就抗議其中就包括我們上一次委員會有去看的其中一場就是這個狀況所以我覺得說未來如果用黑水盲來處理廚餘的話尤其是現在可能原本處理這個廚餘的量沒有那麼多那現在可能就因為禁止養豬了所以他們處理的量更多那這個中間可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15055.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15067.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
沒有處理好臭味就亂飄四億嘛所以變成說住在附近的居民就受不了然後連續有兩場就是在這個黑水盲的這個場連續有兩場一場在河美地區一場在鹿港 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15071.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15100.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
就是鹿港和美那個地方然後另外一場在北斗那邊所以就是民眾抗議所以我覺得說針對這部分我們也希望未來就是說不論是做成堆肥或做成飼料或者是用黑水芒來處理廚藥我覺得一方面就是不要再造成環境的二度傷害那也不要讓民眾覺得說這個就是一個閒物設施那我就不希望他就設在我家旁邊我覺得這部分應該我們應該也要好好再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15101.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15119.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
輔導一下我們原本覺得說這個是處理廚餘很好的一個方式可是你在前端廚餘回收回來之後這個還是會有發酵會收水的那個味道所以如果前面沒有處理好的話會造成居民附近居民 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15121.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15139.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我整天就是聞到那個收水的那個味道所以我覺得說部長針對這部分我們希望這個中央就是環境部這邊是不是可以更加積極如果說他今天是用這個黑水盲來處理廚餘的話是不是在前端的部分這個意味我覺得應該也要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15141.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15169.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
好 謝謝委員因為這個異位的處理其實我也看過一些黑水盲的業者其實沒有什麼味道的所以那個業者是不是可能經驗上面或各方面那我們再去了解看是不是可以給他們一些建議的協助這個我們可以來做因為這個東西其實黑水盲其實各種任何一種它可能都會有一點點味道出來但是如何去把那個異位對附近居民的不舒適感降低我認為這個時候我們可以來做一些協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15170.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15191.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
如果可以再把這個異位降低或者是幾乎沒有異位的話其實我覺得這個是一個很好的方式就是說它處理完之後它的那個黑水盲的糞便或什麼還可以當成肥料我覺得這是一個非常好的方式可是你在前端如果沒有處理好的話這真的是一個讓大家很羨慕的一個地方那再拜託部長好 謝謝我們來努力 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15200.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15206.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
謝謝黃秀芳委員發言接下來請鄭振權委員鄭振權委員不在接著我們請陳瑩委員發言麻煩請環境部部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15225.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15248.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
蔣委員好部長好那今天召委特別安排這個全台垃圾山危機和這個事業廢棄物去化的這個專題報告那我看了其實今天與會的列席的各個部會也都很認真的在準備資料想盡辦法不管字體大小都想盡辦法擠出一點內容出來那 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15251.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15265.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
就是說但是這其中我特別關注到內政部的這個報告那當然國土署的部分有關注到這個土方的管理但是我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15267.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15288.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
整個內政部更應該關注到的就是說既然我們今天講的是全台垃圾山這個危機我們首先會遇到危機就是最近很多這個大火的問題這個垃圾山起火的問題嘛所以這個消防啊我覺得內政部完全沒有去提到這個講到這個消防的問題我很驚訝啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15292.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15313.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
我也特別在這裡點出就是說在我們大家共同在面臨這個垃圾山危機的同時那消防的部分可能要請內政部回去要特別留意那當然這個也不是內政部就自己就可以處理這還是要環境部來協助我就做這樣的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15314.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15343.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
我也跟你報告因為這個因為我們我去台南的時候其實就已經請消防署長跟我一直密切的聯繫我們到底可不可以更快的解決那當然啦因為消防署長以前在台中也救過這個野脈場的大火所以他很有經驗然後我也詢問了各種專家這種野脈場的火災怎麼去做處理都是很老的步驟啦是沒關係我們後續會討論到我想我就做這樣子的提醒那在正部可以請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15345.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15367.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
另外我來替大家問個問題就是說因為目前我們廚餘已經就是不給豬吃了那好像很多人都會有這樣的想法就是說那已經不給豬吃了那我們譬如說便當或家裡的剩菜剩飯我們還需要再做分類嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15370.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15395.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
當然現在是非常時期一開始的階段量能還沒有起來那我知道各個縣市以台北市來說的話他家戶廚餘還是去做堆肥的所以他其實還是要分類那每個縣市狀況有一點點不一樣像新北市他就覺得你把他放在垃圾裡面反正我都去粉化廠燒掉但是你要立竿所以每個縣市有一點點不一樣但是我們未來還是希望做更有效的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15396.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15418.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以部長結論就是說例如像我常常在各縣市跑行程那我今天到新北我就是把我剩下的這個廚餘把它瀝乾那我去到某個縣市就沒關係全部都把它丟進去那我再到台北市來我可能又要做另外的處理是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15419.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15447.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
其實我們還是希望要分類啦但是因為像我所知道是以新北市來說的話他們因為就是鼓勵大家立竿混在垃圾裡面做處理那這樣好不好那個所以部長結論到底是什麼你這樣講我們還是無所適從啦所以在一個時間內我們應該要怎麼辦還是說還是就要看每個人身份證那個開頭還是說在哪裏我們還是期待要分類一定要分類那這樣好不好我這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15449.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15473.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我們在過了這個非常時期邁入正常的時期之後我們的現在不給豬吃廚餘的前提之下那我們接下來廚餘到底真正應該是要怎麼處理還是要分類該分類廚餘還是廚餘那我們一般家庭裡面到底要準備多少個垃圾桶才夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15476.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15495.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們是 沒關係你講個量這樣我們有概念至少要可燃不可燃還有廚餘對 但是廚餘又要再分類啊所以我要準備多少個桶子來目前廚餘只要瀝乾就可以了不用再去分生的熟的吧或者有骨頭沒骨頭這樣子是 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15499.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15515.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這個委員思考的很對啦因為依照他後續再利用的設施例如他如果是去生殖能源的話他大概就不用分類那如果是有些堆肥譬如有一些椰子殼啊等等的還是會被分出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15516.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15536.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
大概是這個樣子那這個部分就依照各縣市它以後所設的這個設施在收集的時候它清潔隊就會去宣導它的桶子應該放在什麼地方所以原則上以後可能會分成兩桶一個是生殖能源化 一個是堆肥 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15537.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15556.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
好那因為我又聽到你的關鍵字就是還是要未來看每個縣市怎麼樣所以我還是很暈倒就是大家仍然是無所適從的所以這個部分不管你們要分各個縣市還是怎麼樣那我就覺得你們是不是可以落實也協助每個縣市就落實宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15558.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15587.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
到底廚餘應該要怎麼分類因為每個縣市它的像有的縣市它未來就要做生殖能廠那它就可以照嚴署長說的那有的縣市它未來的主力是這個下水到驗氧發酵有一個潮那它可能就不用特別分類所以我們現在等於是盤點出來的量能未來的量能之後應該可以照委員的建議說能夠再更明確加強宣導那怎麼去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15587.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15614.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那你大概預期什麼時候可以達到這個理想的境界我們預期當然這個量能平衡不用去焚化爐大概還要一年多的時間一年多的時間那這個一年多的時間就可以到那個階段那我也請你們就是超前部署提早規劃在這個時間的來臨的時候我們可以怎麼樣大家都做好準備就可以很快上軌道做好分類好不好好可以那 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15616.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15635.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那这个部分我想接下来就是说我们身为民意代表也是必须要来替民众发声那一旦就是说垃圾场的大火发生大量的这个浓烟恶臭造成空气品质是非常不好的我们大家将心比心 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15636.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15655.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
居民到底這樣的大火發生的時候居民需不需要暫時撤離或者是發放救助金讓附近的民眾可以離開如果是這樣子的做法有利於這個民眾的健康那環境部是不是應該來好好的規劃一下就是說這些暫時撤離的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15656.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15680.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
好那包括這個氣象啊火勢蔓延的程度啊還有這個財務救助的發放標準我想這幾個方面哦執行面其實是可以來讓地方政府來處理但是我覺得經費的部分還是可以由環境部的掌握的這個基金來支應我不曉得部長評估本席這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15681.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15706.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
政策建議我們再來思考啦因為我們空污基金可能沒有這樣的特別的一個用途過但是我們的預警是有的預警是有那我所知道像像台南這次發生這個烏樹林的事因為燒比較久所以他對於這個附近的居民如何去做一些協助回饋等等他們都有在溝通你說有但我們台中看起來都是無預警啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15708.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15727.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
無預警也無所適從這個部分未來我們如果針對這種大型的災害的戰事場的分布如果未來遇到著火的時候怎麼去建議怎麼去處理或許我們可以在這個後面的細節裡面來討論接下來我想跟部長稍微討論一下這個狀況因為我們就從近期台東縣發生了兩場大火來請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15734.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15760.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
最近一場是2025年7月5號發生在我們台東北南鄉山里野蠻場的這個火警那猜測是這個廢棄物堆積發酵產熱然後氣候乾燥風勢又很強勁所引起的那但是真正的起火原因上代釐清目前大家還不是很清楚那這一場火燃燒的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15762.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15789.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
面積大概有這個400平方公尺左右那因為產生大量的這個濃煙惡臭呢影響到居民的生活所以迫使當地的居民呢必須要暫時的撤離那就是也因此引發了就是說大家對於掩埋場管理還有焚化爐去化能力不足的這些關注要求政府要加速處理堆積垃圾還有這個早期的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15790.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15801.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那部長我就想請教就是說火災發生的時間是在上午9點35分那為什麼大白天還是沒有辦法在第一時間開始救火呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15803.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15832.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這個案子我不太清楚可能是通常這個就是說要不斷的灑水噴水那其實因為它的量體如果掩埋場的量體都要很大那其實以我們最近看到幾個例子它要灑水要噴水其實不見得馬上就有效不過每個地方不一樣它的可能是我猜的是它的水線可能沒有很完整所以才會造成這樣的結果所以目前為了對於這種掩埋場它的監控甚至灑水系統等等救的話我們都要再提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15832.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15853.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
因為燃燒的三要素就是溫度、氧氣跟可燃物部長是氣象專家但是火災爆炸他是另外一個專業我們也請教過專家就是氣體會閃燃只要溫度到了就會自動燃燒起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15854.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15882.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那像這種由這個早氣引燃火災的這個起火燃點呢都比較低那你們的這個國家環境研究院呢應該趕快去蒐集資料然後就是說跟這個模擬實驗那針對過去的大火天候的因素去做分析然後同時把這些結果呢提供給地方的環保局跟這個各個垃圾場去做有效的監督管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15884.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15907.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
謝謝委員這個建議這個現在我有特別交代我們化學署跟防管署我們要跟那個消防署合作這個是事前的這個預防那這個要做還有一個就是怎麼救就兩個事前的預防像委員講到這個就是燃燒的三要素很重要那因為這個這個掩埋場的火災跟那個一般的家裡的火災是不一樣的所以我們要專門請他們那種消防專業來針對我們來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15910.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15930.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
而且我們全台有400多個掩埋場其實每一個掩埋場狀況其實都不太一樣所以他們應該逐一都去做分析研究對好那其次就是不同的可燃物有不同的救災方式那電氣火災跟一般的這個住家火災還有滅火器跟這個救災的策略是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15931.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15955.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那最近從這個台南烏樹林的大火不斷的這個復燒我是擔心是不是說我們的救災設備跟滅火物質可以有更好更新的技術那剛剛部長也有提到就是說我們那個救災的這個救火的方式其實是非常傳統的那尤其是這種大面積的這個燃燒那消防人員跟車輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15956.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15975.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
其實是很難靠近的還有有這個就是說由這個相關基金應該是說環境部我們是不是針對這個垃圾場的大火由這個相關的基金提供經費給這個消防署讓他們引進新的救災技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15976.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15993.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
部長有沒有覺得這個可行性謝謝委員的建議我們的確是希望跟消防署合作一個研究計畫我們來出錢先來研究說這個怎麼救因為我也聽到說很多人國外說有一個弄一個很大的防火毯整個蓋上去但是那個毯子要很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15993.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16014.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
然後或是說有一些特別的化學藥劑冷卻降溫很多人都提供給我一些意見但是其實我是認為還是要請消防專家整個幫我們看這種火要怎麼救因為目前我所看到的實際上第一線的人他還是用灑水來降溫所以這個的確是不夠所以委員你說的就是我們現在想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16015.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16026.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
所以这个部分如果需要环境部经费协助消防署的话也请你们不吝于多多分享我们现在准备要这样做希望能够来规划一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16028.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16049.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
對那因為最後的另外一個點是在那個台東台東市的建農垃圾掩埋場的大火那這場大火是發生在凌晨1點15分起火的連燒了很多天那因為火勢很猛烈濃煙惡臭影響到附近的居民所以呢部分的居民都需要暫時的安置後續呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16050.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16072.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
里長很辛苦啦里長也都帶著居民到這個議會去陳情那要求就是要處理這個堆積的垃圾跟早氣避免說重蹈覆轍那其實我的原因也是大概就是不離天氣乾燥廢棄物自然還有早氣的累積啦那這邊要強調最後要強調就是說我們台東縣的這個天候的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16073.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16097.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
特別是在大武那邊有焚風所以這個很恐怖也因此就是說垃圾場更容易有出現自然的火災我們整個台東縣其實天氣都是非常熱的地方政府的經費跟資源是有限只要發生這種火災都會造成民眾可能會被迫要撤離家園 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16098.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16113.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
而且可能是在白天也有可能是在深夜那我们不确定这样子的火灾风险是真的让附近的民众大家最近都人心惶惶生活很不安那具体的撤离标准那 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16113.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16131.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
救助金的補助還有研究垃圾自然起火的條件跟提升監督管理的效能我們也需要消防救災的單位針對這種垃圾山火災具有最新最有效的控制方法能夠儘早的發現儘早啟動有效的救災 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16135.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16149.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
讓我們可以減少空氣污染的這個對於健康的影響那這些我們需要像部長這樣有專業有使命的環境部部長來支持那我想以上建議部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16150.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16172.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
今天是否都可以委員你說的就是我想做的但是你特別點到了台東特別的條件特別是有墳墓等等的地理條件的特性那我們這邊會到時候把台東的狀況把它考慮進去到時候我們完成的部分如果有一些需要改進的部分也請委員給我一些指教因為不只墳墓我們整體的氣溫就是比較高是好沒問題我們會來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16175.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16203.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
好 那個內政部也麻煩把本席的建議帶回去好 謝謝謝謝陳英委員發言賴世寶委員 賴世寶委員 賴世寶委員不在蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在葉元之委員 葉元之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16205.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16209.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
剛好趕到好 請葉原之委員發言沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16239.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16240.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
請環境部長謝謝請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16245.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16270.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
業文好部長想請教一下我們現在因為那個養豬就是廚餘的養豬現在分兩種嘛一種是家戶的話現在是要禁止嘛對不對但是如果是事業事業的部分的話是還可以去養豬對吧那根據你們的資料顯示就是因為禁止廚餘就是家戶的廚餘禁止養豬大概一天會增加593噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16272.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16279.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這是全國的數字嗎全國的數字然後呢現在的廚餘除了養豬之外其他的廚餘大概是一天是791噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16281.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16307.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所以啊593加上791大概一天要去去化的處於是1384噸是然後根據你們資料呢總設施量能是1100噸所以大概會多出284噸必須要透過焚化跟掩埋這是現行的狀況嗎是沒錯嘛然後115年的話大概要多出一天要395噸去焚化去化是 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16310.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16331.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
但是因為我現在看到環境部的資料都是全國的總數可是實際上你要處理這個廚餘並不是全國一起統一來調度它是給各縣市的清潔隊或者是以清業者來處理所以換句話說環境部如果負責任的話應該要給大家各縣市的數據我舉個例子來講好了比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16333.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16352.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
新北市新北市他一天三個焚化油加起來總共可以處理2600噸可是新北市要必須就是所產生出來的垃圾是3000噸他已經有400噸的垃圾他是要移到外縣市來處理那現在如果再把 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16353.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16379.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
廚餘的量加進來新北市的部分那就是不夠啦它等於是又有更多的垃圾要移到外縣市來處理那這個會增加什麼這會增加我們新北市的每一個人處理垃圾的費用譬如說可能已清業者他因為有更多的垃圾他要移到外縣市去處理他會增加成本那羊毛住在羊身上啊他最後增加成本的錢跟誰收跟我們新北市民來收啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16380.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16408.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
所以新北市配合中央的廚餘政策當然這個是環境部為了環境的政策大家都沒有意見可是配套是說怎麼樣在各縣市配合中央之餘中央可以協助不至於說讓新北市民的處理垃圾成本提高特別是在要協助全國調度的部分否則的話可能我們新北市處理你現在給的量其實只看到一個全國台北搞得沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16408.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16432.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
新北搞不好有問題阿其他縣市又沒問題另外一個縣市又有問題阿我覺得這樣的一個數據是不夠負責任阿我不知道說部長能不能跟謝謝委員我澄清一下齁其實我們都當然我們處理加起來當然有每個縣市的數據新北市目前的量能是平衡的但是他因為新北市目前去化的這個管道像台北市還有一個堆肥廠每天可以處理一百多噸那新北市還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16433.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16449.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
是也積極的在開發當中發展當中那它目前的量呢並沒有說去化的這個不夠的一個問題但是也跟委員報告其實這個除以我們加護的部分本來就清潔隊在收不會增加我們的費用不會增加本來是加護在收而且是隨帶徵收 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16450.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16468.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
所以廚藝的問題在新北市的家戶家庭是沒有問題但是有一些如果餐廳餐廳如果是這個要變成是以輕去收的話他當然就會有一定的一定的費用包含的焚燒的費用清運的費用的確是在裡面的我講是說你你現在是認為說新北市可以自己消化自己垃圾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16469.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16495.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
目前這是非常樂觀的狀況目前的情況目前嘛但是如果把未來的儲運進來的話也許就是他們新北市沒有辦法特別是已清的業者我的了解就是說他沒有辦法處理很多都已經移到外縣市了所以部長你掌握的狀況跟實際上狀況可能有一定的落差沒有沒有因為我們的廚藥不能夠外送到我覺得你是不是你是不是各縣市的狀況去掌握一下給一個具體的比較具體的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16497.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16514.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
每個縣市他的狀況我們都非常清楚我們都跟縣市環保局都有密切的協調可是我了解的不是這樣因為你剛剛講說各縣市都可以消化自己的垃圾但我有實際上了解的狀況除以的話光新北市我剛剛就講了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16515.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16543.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
新北市造成的垃圾就是三千噸嘛他的三個焚化爐加起來是兩千六百噸嘛就是有差不多四百噸是要另外去處理的要運到外縣市他們會透過一個協調的機制這就是我了解的狀況嘛但是鋪長剛剛一直講說沒問題沒問題甚至於加了廚餘進來都沒問題這是簡單數學的問題沒有沒有 瓜哥我跟你講新北市的目前的這個廚餘是鼓勵他們瀝乾變成是跟垃圾一起去救焚化爐那還是會增加啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16544.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16558.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
你本來是可以養豬嘛本來可以養豬現在不行就是會增加這基本數學問題嘛所以我覺得這個問題因為是跟民生息息相關啦我覺得不要用一些數字好像就粉飾太平還是你仔細去了解一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16560.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16577.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
真的跟你講的狀況跟我實際的狀況跟你講的狀況跟我實際的狀況不一樣我是直接跟環保局的局長直接通電話我們狀況也了解的蠻清楚的你還是除了官方的說法之外也要各方面去打聽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16579.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16592.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
第二另外我再請教一下因為上禮拜我們在教育委員會核安會有來啦那大家一直針對就是核能如果核電廠如果要研議到底要不要環評這個問題大家都有討論有的民進黨的立委就認為要環評那是環評法的環評不是你講的政策環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16600.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16626.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
那可是因為部長講一個政策環評就讓大家覺得模擬兩可你是認為到底要環評還是不要環評還是政策環評就可以呃這個部分因為我我們也跟那個河岸會有過協調因為河岸會是主指的是游離輻射他需要環評那我們部分環境部的部分是針對對環境影響評估的環評所以基本上我們兩個是不一樣的一個角色但是大家混在一起嗎所以針對環境部的部分如果核電廠研議要環評嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16627.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16651.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
包委我們的確有在研議我們是討論這個事情因為按照現在的環評法它是既有的設施重啓或研議是不用環評的但是問題是說它是一個新責任的授予所以很多的人也給我們一些不同的意見所以我們也專門也會在研究各國的這樣的一個到底要不要環評所以是有可能要環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16652.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16660.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
基本上委員你們修改了法令光電板5M就要還平了那它這個是幾百公頃你覺得要不要沒有它是重啟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16661.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16682.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
但是它是一個新車的壽宇我們講的是新設啊你這是重啟欸重啟這是新車的壽宇它是一個新車的壽宇這不來跟你吵架的好不好沒有沒有那我請教一下那新達電廠火力發電廠它退役的為什麼重啟不用換屏那個是不一樣哪裡都不一樣那廢話每一個能源都不一樣啊那我在講核能你講光電那我講火力你又說不一樣這不一樣不一樣委員這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16685.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16694.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
這個時間還沒有到因為我覺得他們如果要送一個進來也要到一年多後的一個時間那我們現在還有機會再來那你覺得要重啟要還評的理由是什麼重啟要還評的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16699.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16713.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
呃我們我們基本上沒有說我現在重啟要還品啊你剛剛說在研議啊你剛剛是說在研議啊然後你剛剛還質疑啊就是說光電板都要還品的為什麼電腦這剛剛不是你講的嗎這個是很多人質疑的啊不是不是那你是部長嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16715.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16741.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
你又不是很多的你是部長你的態度嘛所以你覺得要還是不要基本上現在還沒有到達那個時機點那我們也會再來做研究到底哪一個需要那我這樣講我不知道是不是有曲解你的意思你的意思是說你們在演繹當中只是還沒有到時間點所以時間點到了話到時候你會告訴大家要環評還是不要環評是不是基本上這個是一個程序因為我們畢竟環評我們是環境部我們並沒有核能的專業在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16742.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16769.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
所以基本上這個還是我們會跟那個河岸會去做河岸會就說不需要啊河岸會就說他們該做都會做啊他們就說他們的部分比如說他們就他們的業務範圍之內到底重啟對環境的影響他們這個部分他們會做啊對啊那現在有講的是環境部自己要不要根據環評法嗎你們要還是不要按照現在的法規是不要嘛可是你剛剛講說對可是你剛剛講說因為各界給你很多意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16770.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16785.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
所以你們還在研議當中而且你說像光電板都要環評的為什麼核電研議不要這個是外界給我的這是你剛剛講的這個是外界給我的質疑外界都有很多意見我們現在問的是環境部的態度嘛基本上現在這個事情還沒有發生所以你現在是要所以是不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16786.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16802.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
要做還是不做還是說到時候再看看我們還在研究當中還在研究就是有可能要做這個主則還是屬於這個何安會他們要在主席我聽不懂你到底要講什麼主席你聽得懂他講什麼嗎他聽得懂啊那麼簡單主席他說你聽得懂你聽得懂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16803.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16821.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
不是 我的問題這麼簡單是你要求你一開始要求說合二合三也要做環評然後你剛剛又講說這不是你的業務 這合安會的業務然後我說那是怎麼樣你說但是有很多人給你意見然後呢時間還沒到所以到時候會出來一個決定而且你說光電板都做了核電廠怎麼可以不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16822.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16840.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
所以你的立場是跳動的浮動的沒有跳動沒有跳動我們現在給你完整時間講到底要做還是不要做這個時間點還沒有到嘛那所以等到那個時間點的時候你會告訴大家要做不做是不是基本上我們還在研究當中嘛所以在研究當中嘛現在就研究要做還是不要做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16841.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16866.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
只是時間點還沒到你還不到公佈答案的時候嘛等到時間點到你就要公佈答案要做還是不要做嘛對不對這個不是我公佈的這個還是要我們公佈要不要做環評公佈要不要做環評是不是基本上這個是環評法就有規定現在的這個不是嘛你剛剛就說你剛剛講說現在環評法規定不用做但是因為很多人給你意見所以你們要研議要不要做如果要做你可能就修法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16867.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16890.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
你的意思就是這樣啊那我現在問你說是不是這個意思你講話一直變來變去我沒有變來變去啊那是怎樣我以為你這時間點都還沒有到沒有時間還沒到那你現在在演繹當中所以我做個簡單結論就是因為時間點還沒到所以你現在無法給大家一個答案就是到底要不要環評嗎但是等到時間到了你就會告訴大家要環評還是不要環評嗎這有去卷你的意思嗎這有去卷你的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16891.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16907.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
不是你這這麼簡單我們剛剛的對話應該是國小程度的對話吧這中文理解有那麼難嗎為什麼中文沒辦法起到溝通的作用除非你立場跳動嘛你很難自圓其說你才會變這樣嘛那你的立場到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16910.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16937.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
基本上現在按照現在的環評法是不需要環評的我當然知道啊我當然知道啊對啊但是你剛剛講說因為很多人給你意見啊所以呢你們在研議要不要做環評啊然後我問你說那要不要你說還沒有到時間點啊所以等到到時候時間點你就會告訴大家要做還是不要做啊我的結論有有違背你的意思嗎而且你剛剛還嗆說哎呦連光電板都要做了為什麼這是這是很多人是啊是啊是啊所以很多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16938.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16947.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
用這個立場來跟你建議嘛就是說連光電板都要做環評的為什麼核電研議不要做環評所以你覺得到時候可能會做環評你們還在研議當中嘛這樣有說這樣有講錯嗎基本上各個國家的都有不一樣的狀況嘛我們也在看各個國家怎麼去做這個事所以你在研議中嘛我們以前從來沒有做過嘛所以你在參考各個國家的意見你在參考各個國家的做法你在參考很多人給你的意見但是因為時間還沒到 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16965.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16973.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
所以你到時候才決定要不要做環評就這麼簡單你的意思不就這樣嗎我之前也說過就是這個樣子所以你的意思是說有可能要做只是實驗時間點還沒到你不能這樣套我的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16982.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17009.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這就是你的意思啊這就是你的意思啊這個還沒有發生嘛這就是你的意思有可能就是有可能要也有可能不要嘛因為你在演繹當中嘛你在參考各國做法嘛然後很多人給你意見嘛就是這個意思嘛然後你還講說光電板都要做為什麼核電演繹不要做不是別人要求的委員你別人要求不是我是問部長的立場嘛誰怪你別人有沒有要求你是部長嘛每個人會有的跟你講要做有的跟你講不要做像我就覺得不用做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17010.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17027.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
那有人跟你要做我現在問你是主管機關的態度嘛我又不是問你別人有沒有給你意見你就聽我說的基本上這個事情有各個國家有各個國家的做法那我們現在按照現在的環評法規是不需要的但是其實也有一派的說這個是新責任的授予需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17027.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17051.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
但是我們現在會跟那個核安會去討論因為他們是核能的主管機關他到底要做些什麼事情他來他必須要負擔更多的一個責任例如說他這個核子輻射對環境的影響等等他們會比我們專業的多但是我們就公眾參與環保的部分的話全民參與的部分我們也希望他可以參與的參考我們的環評做法可以讓大家可以多一點意見的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17052.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17063.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
我已經問過核安會了 他就是說他們該做就會做不太需要環境部來下指導棋啦好 謝謝他沒有這樣講後面的是我講 但他說他該做都會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17064.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17089.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
你不要多講他說的他多做的所以他該做他都會做但你現在又說你要去找他討論我們也有在討論你又要去找他討論所以你現在的意思就是說何安會做完之後你認為因為很多人給你意見要參考各國做法我也沒有這樣講你剛剛就這樣子講的嘛你不要勸張取義喔沒有沒有我給你非常多的時間我想在座的包括大家有看質詢都會非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17090.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17109.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
沒有這樣講絕對就這個意思沒有沒有你就是這個意思我沒有下指導棋喔沒有沒有下指導棋你去找他建議嘛你在受訪還是什麼時候你就說啊這核安會應該怎樣應該怎樣這不是下指導棋是什麼這是定義的論題嘛那是什麼這是協商啊什麼協商你說核安會要怎樣怎樣怎樣這要協商喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17110.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17137.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
這個是在命令河岸會應該怎樣應該怎樣不是指導棋這是什麼我覺得一直在去炒那個定義的問題你去叫河岸會幹嘛幹嘛幹嘛這是指導棋啊這是什麼我們沒有叫他做什麼這個是人家詢問說這個是誰的責任當然是河岸會他們要做這樣的判斷嘛好沒關係啦謝謝好謝謝謝謝葉仁志委員發言接下來請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在好 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17139.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17165.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
那本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝 |