| IVOD_ID |
17119 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17119 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-15T08:31:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-15T13:00:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:28:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d2898cc04c8ca19045f4c1517bf427504d5e67b2ed5162375cbcb13b68c7987da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「針對國軍各類型火藥原物料購案，廠商資格標準訂定及審認作法」，併請經濟部、行政院公共工程委員會、法務部廉政署列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:09 - 13:00:00 |
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1764.213 |
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報告委員會初席委員8人已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1769.924 |
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1793.717 |
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我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期外交及國防委員會第二十次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十二月三日星期三上午九十六分至十二時十五分地點紅樓三零一會議室出席委員陳永康等十人聶許委員賴世寶等十四人請假委員黃仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1794.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1814.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席人員外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員國家安全局局長蔡明彥及所屬人員主席馬昭及委員文君報告是想一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二 邀請外交部部長林佳龍國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告美中領導人再次電話通聯後 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1815.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1838.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
对国际秩序及区域情势之发展并被质询外交部部长林佳龙国家安全局局长蔡明彦报告委员卢美林等14人质询军用外交部部长林佳龙国家安全局局长蔡明彦及副局长张元斌等即席答复决定已登记质询在场委员均已发言完毕报告及巡打结束二委员黄仁 陈永康 林义军 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1838.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1853.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
及邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭資訊未及答覆或要求提供資訊請相關機關與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1857.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1875.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
現在請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告針對國軍各類各類型火藥原物料購案廠商資格標準訂定及審認做法並請經濟部行政院公共工程委員會法務部年政署列席並備質詢宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1881.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1892.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們現在首先介紹在場的委員及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員以及國防部顧立雄顧部長副參謀總長執行官黃志偉黃商將常務次長黃宥明黃長賜全民防衛動員署廖建新廖署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1909.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1936.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
總督察長是盧建忠總督察長石文龍石參事政務辦公室孫立芳孫主任政治作戰局史順文史局長軍備局林文祥林局長主計局謝祺賢謝局長軍醫局蔡建松蔡局長戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1939.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1959.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
資源規劃司 藍靜婷 藍司長法律事務司 吳益勝 吳司長整合評估司 苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購是 趙雅萍 趙主任人事參謀次長是 侯嘉倫 侯次長情報參謀次長是 謝日生 謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1969.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1997.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
作战及计划参谋次长是连志威连次长后勤参谋次长是李凤翔李次长通信电子资讯参谋次长是谢俊山谢次长训练参谋次长是郭俊德郭次长陆军司令部陈建义参谋长海军司令部邱俊荣参谋长 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1998.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2024.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉參謀長憲兵指揮部文念宗參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長軍事情報局李永康李執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2026.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2040.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
電訊發展室吳永遠副主任國防大學教育長李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院李士強 李院長經濟部政務次長江文若 江政次商業發展署公司登記組 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2054.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2062.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
葉雅琳 葉科長國際貿易署貿易管理組 郭真宜 郭副組長國際貿易署雙邊貿易一組 袁弘林 袁組長產業發展署金屬基電產業組 張尚軍 張副組長地質調查及礦業管理中心 許慶元 許祖密 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2086.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2091.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
接下來還有行政院公共工程委員會羅天健羅主任秘書企劃處謝基正謝處長法務部廉政署林兆鴻林副署長政風業務組蔣家維蔣副組長我們現在補充介紹沈伯陽沈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2115.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2123.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好那我們議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2131.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2146.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告針對國軍各類型火藥原物料購案廠商資格標準訂定以及審認的做法並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2158.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2185.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
主席各位委員先進今天應要到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對國軍火藥原物料購案的關切與指導在此表達誠摯敬意與謝誠火藥原物料為國防軍備重要物資鑑於國內廠商目前無產生能量迄今採購方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2187.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2215.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
廠商均以進口方式供貨本部於履約交貨時均落實查驗廠商提供輸出許可證明原廠文件並嚴格執行交貨品質查驗以確保獲得來源及品質物語接續由本部國防採購室主任趙雅萍中將就國軍各類型火藥原物料購買廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2276.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2295.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
火藥原物料購案廠商資格標準訂定及審認作法一火藥類購案以往採購經驗經清查近五年110至114年火藥原物料採購案件即一妖動物公理高爆戰防液光彈發射藥B炸藥班乃特傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2296.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2316.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
火藥條等三項M3洞發射藥M2發射藥等兩項班乃特船火藥等兩項共六案各案原物料均為國內廠商無產製能力品項為廣增商源各案均採公開招標以內購外貨方式辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2316.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2330.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
并于厂商资格定为合法设立或登记证明营业项目国际贸易业及纳税证明等三项一般资格以鼓励国内厂商参与国防产业2RDX |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2332.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2358.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
海嫂跟购案厂商资格标准订定及审认做法国务一 厂商资格为掌握市场供应情形需求单位军备局第205厂于采购前办理公开征求国内商员结果确认国内厂商仍无火药原物料产制能量需以进口现货供应考量以往火药类购案投标厂商资格之一致性 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2359.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2371.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
依循往例定定合法设立或登记证明营业项目国际贸易业及纳税证明等三项资格并确保厂商具有进口货品供应的能力关五二 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2372.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2385.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
押標金及履約保證金的制度為確保投標廠商具誠信參標防止惡意欺標等影響採購公正行為招標文件要求廠商投標時應繳交預算金額3%新台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2390.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2417.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
2474万元之押标金担保以保障合约如期签订并应于绝标次日起18日内缴交履约保证金也就是预算金额5%为新台币4123万元以督促其依约执行3.厂商资格的审认做法1.本案资格审认系一招标文件所列之厂商资格条件逐项审查 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2418.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2439.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
確認合法及完整性作為判定合格之依據具體做法摘述如下一逐項比對投標文件是否符合招標資格二確認證明文件真實性有效性及相符性三必要時得向相關機關反下查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2440.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2468.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
另外杜絕紅色供應鏈確保國家安全招標文件均律定不允許大陸地區廠商第三地區含陸資成分廠商及在台陸資廠商參與投標刮無四對廠商履約之管制作為為確保廠商誠信履約交貨品質無虞對廠商履約之管制作為說明如後一廠商應於絕標次日起180個日曆天 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2470.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2487.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
取得外国政府或其授权机构合法之输出许可证明令案内标的属限制性货品输入管制品项并因依经济部定班货品输入管理办法规定获得进口同意的文件二 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2488.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2510.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
廠商交貨應檢附品質保證書產地證明含出廠證明、進口報關單及原廠製造證明文件須經產地法院或公證人公證並由需求單位軍備局第205廠會同廠商辦理文件的查驗必要時實施反向查證確認文件的真實性三 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2511.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2521.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
本案採購品項依道路交通安全規則第84條規定向起運地或車籍所在地公路監理機關申請核發臨時通行證並會同軍備局第205場之人員押運至該場交貨是 交運至第205場後由該場火工專業檢驗人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2537.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2554.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
針對廠商交貨標的實施抽樣送交合格檢驗的單位含第三公證單位並依美軍的標準實施物化性的檢驗檢驗合格使得辦理結案付款不合格即辦理退貨由廠商回應原產地 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2555.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2573.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
五本部加強查驗原物料的訂購簽收證明文件等資料後續廠商若預期未繳交文件貨品或檢驗不合格將解除契約並沒收履約保證金及刊登停權等行政處分以維護機關的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2575.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2593.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
三 給予本部持續落實國軍各類火藥原物料購案投標廠商文件的審查並於履約階段強化交貨驗收相關作為確保交貨品質及產地來源無虞善盡維護本部權益之責任報告完畢 敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2600.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2616.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請沈博洋委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2628.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2632.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 謝謝主席那有請部長 謝謝好 請顧部長是 沈偉勇部長 那今天因為其實國防部有一些議題我也想繼續追但是因為今天排的這個議題也是至關重要就是跟這一個火藥 炸藥的原物料的這個進出口的事項所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2654.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2679.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第一個我認為就是說我們對於這個採購的這個流程還有我們要怎麼去做驗收這些事情原本都很重要也很值得在立法院討論但我個人是覺得就是現在因為它是週末出來的這個消息那整個週末其實討論的方向說真的很歪就變成說讓我們民眾接收到的這種跟國防相關的資訊我覺得會有很大的偏差 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2680.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2696.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為我知道這個媒體報導就很喜歡講說這家廠商原本可能是做什麼的他怎麼可以去拿這樣的一個標案等等之類的但是第一個我是想說當然很多人會提到過往合成做這個衛浴相關的他也會去拿這些抗蛋板 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2696.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2720.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那如果大家對這個韓國這個南華集團有一定認知的話他做的是保險做的是百貨公司相關的這些產業但他現在也是重要的韓國的這個K9自走炮的這個出口商還有像這一個我們這一個失華弱勢期嘛大家的認知就是做水晶賣這個水晶做得很漂亮但他同樣的他的集團也有做狙擊槍的這個狙擊鏡 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2722.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2737.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以就是說呢目前這種在雙用通用的這個狀況之下現在越來越多這種民間的企業它會加入它會到這一個軍事產業裡面所以如果我們從這個角度切入我會認為說就是我們反而一直在傳遞給民眾一個錯誤的一個國防的常識 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2741.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2770.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
尤其是我們現在要加入飛鴻供應鏈但是不代表這個議題不值得討論就是說在這個議題裡面我個人在看這個議題的時候我反而會覺得說反而是投標的廠商因為今天投標的廠商最後因為第一次是流標嘛 對不對然後第二次最後也就只有他而已所以我反而是想問說為什麼就只有他投就是說其他的人能夠去做這件事情的人照理說在台灣也是大有人在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2770.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2797.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那他今天你說跟需要取得出口或者進口相關的許可這件事情我覺得應該有很多廠商都有能力做得到那是不是因為他認為說他今天來做這個國家的標案他覺得他吃虧啊他覺得在他的商業利益上不符合啊會有各式各樣的因素那是不是是否可以針對這一點就是說為什麼今天來投標的廠商只有一家這件事情是不是可以做一個簡短的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2798.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2813.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
跟委員報告主要就是因為這個火藥原物料都是各國他們往往要優先滿足自身的需求他會嚴格一個輸出管制的規定所以重點就是在於你要在投標之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2814.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2842.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你應該要有辦法拿得到當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件不然的話你一旦沒有辦法履業你就會面臨非常嚴重的一個後果這個就是我們合約訂定的一個最主要的精神所以他必須要思考好他有沒有履業能力因為他要來投標他就要繳交3%的押標金然後之後得了標之後他要繳交預算金5%的履業保證金 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2843.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2855.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那這個交貨其實就是一個一翻兩瞪眼的東西也就是說他今天如果拿不到輸出許可證明物件他就沒辦法交貨然後接下來他還要去拿到原廠的證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2856.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2868.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
然後等等的這些然後相關文件之後他還要能夠運抵台灣然後運抵台灣之後我要馬上交給我們的專業譬如說我們這一次是軍備局205場那205場就要進行這個檢驗當檢驗過了我們才會付款那如果他檢驗不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2877.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2894.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那他履歷保證也要被沒收他履歷保證沒有說不但被沒收他還要遭受庭權的處分所以他有辦法能夠達到這些相關的當地政府的輸出區域的證明文件才會來有意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2896.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2919.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
來進行投標因為他這個時候要思考他有沒有最後有沒有辦法能力履約這個就是現在的一個我們之所以認為不需要去訂定一些其他的資格條件因為他只要能夠從事國際貿易那麼他能夠拿得到當地輸出的許可證明文件拿到原廠的證明然後確保品質安全無虞 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2920.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2929.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們這個時候才會付款所以他每個人來投標的時候他都是要先衡量自己有沒有這樣的語言能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2930.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2953.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好 謝謝部長就是說因為這件事情對我來講就是說剛剛整個的流程從他取得相關的證明到他必須要履約等等之類我相信205在做這個驗收的時候一定會非常的嚴格我想說這個都不是什麼問題但是我們是希望就假設我們今天希望我們的國防有更多的這些民間的產業能夠來加入的時候我們希望能夠看到的是更多的廠商來投 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2954.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2982.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
對不對然後更多廠商來投那表示跟委員報告我們為了這個我們去清查了過去20年所有這些關於當然除了軍備局有生產之外國內廠商沒有產能的這些所謂內購外貨的方式也就是去然後我們都按政府採購法來辦理公開招標我們的資格我們要求的資格20年來沒有任何的改變就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2984.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2995.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
合法的公司設立登記第二個有納稅的證明第三個他有從事國際貿易業的營業項目就這三個20年來清查了幾十個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2996.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3017.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
沒有任何的改變我們就是要廣增商源讓所有有能力的人都不會因為受到這些門檻而受到不當的限制而事實上他能夠交貨才是整個問題的重點所以我在這裡講我們不能夠劃錯重點我們的重點是我們要能夠讓這個購案能夠執行成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3021.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3045.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好 感謝部長就是我剛剛也提到就是說重點就是最後能不能履約它如果不能夠履約的話它也會相關它的牙標件會不會沒收等等之類的話它會有遭受到這些不利益那我們希望的就是說在未來的時候有更多的這樣的一些不管是通用的廠商或者說國際貿易的廠商因為畢竟現在非紅供應鏈是我們非常重要的一個目標越來越多的民間能夠加入到這整體的產業來講我們應該是樂見才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3048.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3054.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那接下來因為這個時間的因素我可能沒有辦法問全部的問題但是我在12月1號的時候有質詢過這個空軍所以這個呢空軍那個時候呢就是我們那時候是在討論就是說到底為什麼說這一個大三的時候結果體檢出問題的人變多對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3066.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3082.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那時候我們有討論過好幾個可能不同的因素我們說我們先不要下結論那在這一次呢其實因為我想說也要讓公眾知道其實空軍這邊是有來調相關資料的而且看起來好像也知道比較確切的原因所以是不是能趁這個時候跟國人說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3083.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3111.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
委員好 我是空軍常務長跟委員做簡單的報告那這個看起來他的比例就是畢業前飛行生不及格比例越來越高的原因是因為我們在以前全部是飛行生所以說他佔的比例就是百分之百一開始就是佔百分之百但是現在因為我們因應很多近視他想加入空軍的這些專才生也一併招進來所以說競效的時候他的飛行生的比例本來就低那 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3113.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3136.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
專財生的比例就大概佔了四分之一所以一進來他就是佔的比例就飛行生佔的比例本來就很低所以說你只要有一些不及格的佔比他就看起來會比較高的原因在這所以說專財生我們從110年開始陸陸續續就招了比較多大概在將近四分之一的這個專財生進入空軍官校所以看起來比例是比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3137.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3154.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
但事實上它的常態畢業前飛行生不及格的比例大概都在8%以內這個沒有改變對 因為我有看到你們詳細的數據就簡單來講因為這個是專才跟飛行生都加入的進去如果是我們把它拆開的話就發現在飛行生這邊其實是算穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3154.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3176.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
其實沒有比較高對所以這個我覺得很重要我用這個例子我也是想要強調就是說假設今天是有人在網路上拿到這樣的一個數據他可能就馬上鋪天蓋地的開始攻擊說什麼你看我們的沒有人想要當兵了沒有人想要來當飛官了因為中國的威脅什麼等等之類如果說今天這一個謠言一旦出去的話其實對國軍一定是傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3177.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3204.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以我們在第一時間我們要怎麼回應要怎麼樣讓這個謠言能夠直寫其實是非常重要的就用這個來當作一個例子那我們今天在討論這個案子其實也是一樣一開始就是它已經就被定調說這一個這個什麼條件看起來不符合的廠商他為什麼會做這樣的事情但其實我們從剛剛國際的例子或者說我們從國內這20年來我們招標的方式我們沒有改變我們這幾件事情其實應該要在第一時間的時候就要做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3205.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3219.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那不然的話你看整個週末這樣燒然後一直到今天這樣有這樣的一個專報我們變成說在今天這個時間才有辦法很精準的跟國人說明的時候他的謠言可能已經燒了三天OK 我覺得這個這個都會有傷這都會有傷那很感謝空軍調這個相關的資料讓我們解開這個疑惑那 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3223.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3238.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
接下來就是這一個這個我可能只能快速問一下就是我可能下次再繼續問詳細的細節就是我們這個第五級的這個保全人員做這個關鍵基礎設施這個防護目前我看到就是之前有做一個盤點說大概需要多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3239.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3265.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們看到光是北部好像就需要大概200多人中部需要100多 南部需要多少我看加起來大概500人因為現在他們還要他這個資格有限定 對不對這個人應該很清楚就是說他可能是比如說他是特種的部隊退的又或者說他是軍人退伍的他才有辦法去做這個這個資格有限定而且我們國家還會幫忙做授訓這個都是好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3265.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3288.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
但是因為我們看今年這個受訓的資料看起來就是受訓的這個人數感覺還達不到我們現在需求的人數但我看薪水也不差對不對 這個薪水看起來是五萬多這個薪水也不差所以就是這一件事情現在有點人數不足那我們要怎麼樣讓這個量能趕快趕上這件事情是否可以簡短的說明一下就好因為時間已經到了我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3293.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3311.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
現在主要是說他們這些第五級的保全人員他有要求一些授訓的時數而且要有一些特殊的經驗那這些保全的人員他到底能不能夠去納入他們的這個特種的防護團的編組這可能是一個關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3313.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3335.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那這個可能是要問一下內政部因為內政部在有關這個民防法相關的規範在規範那些有關這個民防總隊特種防護團聯合防護團這個相關的規定所以如果他把它納入這個特種防護團的話而且才能夠納入這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3339.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3361.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
民防法相當規定可以認為免緩招的一個對象那如果是這樣子的話是不是才有一個足夠的誘因然後同時他要能夠在這個防護特種防護塔裡面扮演一個什麼樣的角色基於他的經驗他的授訓的時數那如果能夠納入這樣整體的考量的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3362.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3375.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
應該才會有比較高的誘因因為這個誘因是我們之前討論過所以部長直接回答到一個重點就是說因為我們會來跟內政部溝通如果他能夠在這一個防護團的這個定義裡面的話他在這個叫召的時候他就不會有雙重的這個義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3377.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3401.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那可能也對於因為裡面的人可能會抱怨說為什麼做這個又要做那一個所以在這件事情之下呢或許可以讓更多人知道有這樣的一個這個工作的這個機會所以我覺得因為畢竟像我們現在會有量能需求的問題那我們要怎麼去提高誘因它看起來它的薪水的福利是已經在那邊了有沒有其他的誘因能夠去提供的話我覺得這是至關重要的一點那因為時間因素我可能就先問到這裡謝謝好 謝謝謝偉謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3409.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3413.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
接下來請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3433.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3450.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
是 徐委員部長好今天專案報告因為我們談到這個原物料的採購案剛剛在前一位質詢的時候講得都頭頭是道但我這邊有一個問題想要問在今年的12月10號也就是上個禮拜的時候我們的沈記長在司法法治委員會報告的時候他提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3451.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3474.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
他們呢 審計部到中科院裡面去調查發現很多偽造產地證明以及偽造進口證明的問題那請部長來回答一下就是說為什麼審計部他們這個會研究發現到有所謂的偽造產地證明跟偽造進口證明在這一部分來說是發生了什麼事情你們有沒有去調查有沒有請中科院請 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3477.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3492.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
最主要是审计部在我们这边做内部审计的时候发现我们有找到发现很多厂商很多厂商是什么样的厂商他进口的是哪一类型的产品有包含今天关切的化学药品 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3492.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3502.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
化學藥品還有什麼樣的產品是有偽造產地證明跟偽造進口證明電子類電子類的也有這兩種是大宗是嗎那請問一下那這個是就是他們調查到是在什麼就是他們目前調查到的你們檢討掉所以是你們查我不管嘛因為今天我知道這個事情不是你告訴我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3513.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3531.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
是我在審計部他們講的時候我才知道這件事情所以我想要問一下剛剛您講的就是說有關於化學的這個原物料以及我們剛剛講到的電子類的通訊產品它有偽造產地證明跟偽造進口證明的部分加起來一共是幾起那時間到達是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3532.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3546.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
報告這個應該是中科院主動去發掘的沒問題沒問題就是你們主動這個要先強調可以可以可以主動當然很好但是因為有發生這樣的事嘛所以我想要問的事情是說它在數量上面以及期程就是我們到目前調查到的一個調查到哪一個時期 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3549.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3571.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這我想我們等統計之後再跟委員做一個報告還要等統計啊那我們今天本來的這個報告裡面就關於這個原料案的各式各樣的審認做法呀那這個沈記長的這個報告他也是在12月10號的時候就已經說了呀那你不可能想說沈記長都已經提到了中科院裡面有出現這樣的問題那我在國防外交委員會的時候我不會提出來詢問吧這還需要等嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3573.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3591.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我30秒回答 審計長對於審計部的報告他可能沒有整個講清楚 審計部的報告最主要他的好意就是說中科院現在跟關務署的進口我們沒有辦法連線我們必須要透過國防部軍備局去申請之後才能連線那審計部的報告意見是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3592.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3613.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
財政部關稅署能夠同意跟中科院直接連線我們對每一筆的進口資料可以透過關稅署這邊去查證但是目前關稅署並沒有同意所以我們現在採取的方式是針對他的進口報單他可以把他的進口價格塗銷但是我們從他的進口報單去查如果他中間的中轉港口包含鹿港澳地區我們就會特別再去查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3614.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3629.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那請問一下就關於剛剛所講的就是說偽造產地證明偽造進口證明的這個這個數量跟調查期間就調查到的期間項目的部分呢那可不可以在沒有違反就所謂的這個軍事機密的情況之下提供給我們參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3630.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3654.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
需要多少時間可以給我這樣子的一個報告好 謝謝那再來呢我想要問一下就是有關於這個無人機的部分那國軍現在持續擴充無人機的操作手的能量我們希望2025年的時候能夠完訓3100多員嘛那大家會希望說人人都會操作可是我想問一個問題喔這個民用的無人機跟軍用無人機的證照它是有互相通用的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3655.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3676.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們就我的理解我們軍中會專門就這個各類型的無人機我們會做一個相關的一個認證你們會做相關的認證訓示室來說明好那可不可以盡快說明因為我們時間很有限今天議題很多志維好我是訓示室長跟志維報告我們的軍用無人機因為我們的一到五類無人機都有所謂的接裝訓練因為我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3679.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3705.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個無人機的性能都是不太一樣是的所以我們會這個證照取得我們會有接裝訓練或是我們的訓練取得之後然後發給我們的操作手來做一個操作無人機的依據我知道你的情況了那但是呢部長我要跟你澄清一件事情現在在軍中裡面有非常多的基層軍官都遇到同樣的情況是什麼呢就是被長官要求要去報考無人機的學測這是民用的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3706.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3727.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
來可以看一下在10月的時候就有了請問有人知道報名無人機學測要去哪裡報考嗎現在強制要去報考不然要懲處請問我們有做這樣的強制嗎報委我們國安部沒有做這方面的對我們沒有我們理論上沒有然後明面上發給他們的文書都沒有但是口頭上面就是沒有記錄的部分都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3728.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3748.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這是部長我真的跟你講我如果今天不是受到非常多的陳情的話我今天不會在這裡講這個而且我待會會再提出更進一步的證據所以我要講的事情是如果我們官方的立場並沒有要強迫我們的基層官兵要去報名無人機的培訓民用的培訓的話那就不能在軍中發生這樣的事情我們看下一個部分 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3749.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3770.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
給大家看一下所謂歡迎有意願自費餐訓他把自費餐訓標起來這代表什麼意思其實大家在職場上面工作久的人都看得懂他說什麼呢費用要多少錢一個人要兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢我再講一次上課安排他寫了一大堆就配了三台讓你去自主訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3771.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3799.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
他就寫說 這個是一個很好的機會我提供很好的機會讓大家能夠自主的學習能夠學到更多的技能說得很好聽 說得很正向說自廢殘馴但其實大家都是被逼迫的我告訴大家這是八軍團的部分還有另外如果大家覺得這個截圖沒有辦法登記網址在下面他傳到軍中裡面要大家去登記所以有誰有報 有誰沒報長官都看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3800.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3817.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以今天沒報的人他都會緊張說那長官看到我沒報是不是覺得說我今天我跟我的上級長官我之間會產生衝突還沒有 等一下一併回覆那再來如果大家覺得這個只是一部分的話告訴大家另外在官職部也一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3818.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3835.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個是我們拿到的收據去參加什麼呢崇祐影藝科技大學推廣教育中心無人機的證照班收據訓練費用是兩萬三千元補助一萬三但是學員要自分一萬塊錢我想問一下如果剛才都講得這麼清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3835.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3851.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
是沒有所謂的要強迫大家去上課那學員還要去自費一萬這是一個什麼樣的情況啊我們繼承官兵他們的薪水也不是說特別的高那今天因為國防部你們要希望他們可以有所謂的新技能 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3851.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3871.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
然後要他們去另外額外付錢去做一個訓練這不是很奇怪嗎如果像部長您剛剛講的很好啊我們自己有自己的培訓我們用自己的培訓讓他們來學習讓他們來培訓之後能夠取得我們自己國防部裡面的許可說你已經有這樣子的一個技能了還需要人家付一萬塊錢到兩萬塊錢嗎你看關子部的價格跟人家八軍團價格還不一樣耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3877.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3900.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以這代表說這是發生在全台灣裡面基層士兵裡面都普遍有的情況非常多人在抱怨是這個事情請問部長您知不知道以及未來要如何改進報告委員我簡要回答第一個我們目前以陸軍來說我們都是以一二類的無人機為主我們依據民航法99之10條我們的軍用無人機是可以依照我們的專長證書不用所謂的民間證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3905.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3926.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
對 我知道啊所以我才覺得你們很奇怪嘛第二點 我們所有籌購的無人機不管是軍售 商售都是包含到幫我們做訓練第三點 如果委員所提列這個事證我們清查是屬實的話我們會嚴格的禁止你們要嚴格 我跟你講你們要嚴格禁止因為它已經是包含我剛剛已經舉了兩個地方官職部跟八軍團都有我們會下去了解 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3930.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3946.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
拜託了解不要再用這種所謂的自願然後呢講是講自願實際上就是要求我們自己有自己的系統不需要讓基層士兵還要多花一兩萬塊錢去做這個事情好嗎那個部長這個部分國防部可以檢討嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3949.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3977.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
陸軍參謀長我想應該也不是只有陸軍我想因為我們應該都會嚴格禁止有這樣的狀況我們因為今天委員提出來那我們會下去做一個清查可不可以給我一個時間你們要需要花多少時間檢討之後給我一個答案我想是不是兩個禮拜好的好那接下來另外一個議題是關於身心調適假的部分那個請問一下部長因為您之前也是律師應該非常清楚各種放假的這個規定請問身心調適假是什麼時候開始實行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3978.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3979.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
申請條市價應該是10月 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3984.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4010.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
對 沒錯啦 就不用太精準啦就是114年10月10號啦那包含是我們也一直強調就是關於說約聘僱的這個部分也應該要就是能夠跟上那謝謝國防部在這邊呢私底下也給我們一些比較正面的回饋好 但是呢但是齁 我要講一下來 看下一張那個我們那個參謀長又可以回來了我可以看一下齁欸 身心調適加115年開始實施這是一個什麼樣的一個說明啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4012.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4022.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
不是114年10月開始上路的事情嗎為什麼我們很多的地方都在講說哎呀115年開始實施跟人家拗這個半不到半年的時間有意義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4026.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4055.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
蛤我時間不是很夠齁這個上面的訊息上面的資料我跟你講不只啦你要這樣子我就一個一個給你看有多少人都在講請不到身心調適價的問題來觀止部齁硬要把補修榮譽價慰勞價都修完才能開始請身心調適價這有合乎法規嗎沒有好身心道這個剛剛我還沒念完還有咧身心調適價到底可不可以用觀止部都沒有宣導很多人在問下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4056.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4056.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4056.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4085.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
主管說誰想放身心調適假你或我走一個囂張啊身心調適假主觀不能阻擋但就是可以噁心別人啊把你約來看一下你是不是有什麼情緒狀況啊我想請一個身心調適假結果我越請壓力越大所有人都跑來關心我發生什麼事情我要告訴大家的是說這個部分國防部一定尤其顧部長我記得您在一上任的時候做了一個非常好的一個政策我也很認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4086.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4114.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
就關於就是回家的時候那個假日回報的這個事情那時候在一陣子之後我有跟您講說您這個命令下去是好的但是執行下去的時候遇到一些問題那您後來您也說要去改善身心調適假放到一樣的問題在軍隊裡面也就是這個假有但問題是國軍請不了所以可不可以問一下那個部長您也是律師在這種情況之下我們的基層士兵要如何去維繫自己的權益啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4114.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4133.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我想類似這種比較屬於去年10月10號才實施的這樣子的一個身心調適下我們確實應該要多多的到每個基層讓各個主管都能夠了解那我們會努力的來進行這個宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4134.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4156.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個非常非常的重要我們對於國軍裡面這一些日子以來然後產生的各種智商的人數的攀升以及我們對於包含是很多的心腹的提高大家都很努力在做那今天有這樣的一個身心調事件我們希望能夠幫到基層軍官是 因為它事實上它有一個就是說國軍有一個特殊性 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4157.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4171.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
他當然有特殊性影響到戰備的部分所以這個部分我想我們會遵照委員的指示我們會努力的去做一個宣導努力做一個平衡好不好至少你要讓人家他看 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4172.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4198.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
就你今天如果說你不讓請是因為說我們現在可能目前的請假的情況是對我們戰力上面戰備上面會有影響的時候你也要把這個事情告訴人家跟人家算給別人聽嘛那我們的軍官不會不懂嘛今天大家會覺得請不到假而且這麼多人都請不到的原因就是因為明明人數是夠的那就我一個人要請假結果呢也不讓請所以才會有這樣子的一個問題所以這個部分應該很清楚是需要改善的對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4198.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4219.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我想剛剛委員講一個平衡我想這是一個很好的一個觀念我沒有要求你們說一定說我沒有要求你們說所有的東西一定非得怎麼樣我知道國軍有特殊之處但是國軍的權益部分他能夠盡量讓他擁有的不可以讓他喪失這是我們對於我們軍官弟兄最基本希望國防部能夠盡量來做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4220.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4239.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那最後一個問題就是關於今年12月8號的時候F16發生這個飛行員的昏迷案件那最後好險是成功醒來喔但是呢也引發了這個司令部的飛安通報那請問一下當初說要裝Auto-GCSA防撞地系統的時候是有什麼原因部長您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4241.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4263.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
官方委員這是在107年的時候6月4號的時候F16發生一級事件之後那我們提出來的一個做法對 107年的時候發生了這個我們的無駕駛然後呢這個失事的情況之下我們軍方經過檢討之後認為有必要在F16上面呢裝這樣子的一個系統那請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4264.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4285.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們裝這個Auto GCSAS的防撞地系統是什麼時候招標什麼時候付款的因為畢竟這是2018年我們就已經評估要做的事情是 這個一直在跟美軍進行一直是什麼時候開始從107年之後的107年6月之後我們在107年的8月就跟美軍開始談這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4287.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4313.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那因為美軍自己那個時候都沒有這樣的一個裝備然後呢所以一直在發展到這幾年美軍也才做完這幾年是哪幾年講得清楚一點好不好大概在今年也才完成一個飛測今年完成飛測今年是2025年數位的部分因為它要結合這個系統不是說你裝上去它就可以用我知道啊每一個國家的飛機都不一樣我知道啊但是我想問一下我們這個部分向美軍付款沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4315.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4334.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個已經開始在做已經都佈線了所以已經付款了嘛對不對目前裝設的情況怎麼樣佈線在明年我們目前F16裡面這個裝設這個系統的比率是多少佈線明年4月才完成所有的機隊目前完成130架目前是0嘛目前是130架 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4337.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4356.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
完成布線它主要分成三個部分我要問的是說裝好這個系統嘛因為今天這個發生昏迷事件之後大家回想起來說2018年你們就講說要裝這個系統了18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25隔了多久了那所以我要問一下說我們目前為止裝好這個系統的F16是幾架 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4358.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4383.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
報告委員不能用裝好幾架這個東西就是他已經可以開始使用他可以開始使用這個系統的有幾架他要分三階段來執行就完成嘛 就123階段我就問到做好到第三階段的有幾架嘛因為我跟你說你可以直接回答我因為有的明年才能好那就明年OK報告委員他的第三階段還不能做的原因是因為我們的飛機的軟體系統還沒有update完他不能現在去裝這個軟體要不然的話在飛機上是不能PV不能使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4388.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4395.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那請問一下2023年要給立法院的報告裡面有沒有寫到什麼時候要在台灣做安裝跟測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4397.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4417.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
你們在2023年的時候好我告訴你在2023年的時候因為大家時間背景不太一樣最後我講一下在2023年的時候我們就也再問過一次問題專案報告那時候給立法院的報告是說呢美國空軍在2024年要在台灣安裝跟測試那個時候的說法是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4420.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4445.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那到了現在是要到明年那沒關係第一階段已經開始做包委員這個2024年我們第一階段已經開始做這個沒有問題但是跟您報告全案結束要到115年才會開始陸陸續續上機那是因為軟體匹配的問題因為它是數位的非控軟體才能安裝這個東西所以要到2028年全機隊才能完成安裝嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4446.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4466.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
不用 到116年27年不是 2028年這是你們12月10號講的啊是那你現在要告訴我是可以提前了是嗎是所以說你可以12月10號的時候你們告訴我們說呢2028年全機隊能夠完成安裝那您現在的說法是說能夠提前多久到什麼時候全機隊完成安裝的時間整個全案我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4470.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4477.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
是 這個我們在116年這個部分我們是可以上機來使用全部的機隊嗎是好 謝謝你謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4505.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4523.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
部長早安是陳委員對於國防部整個採購規範依法依規的作業流程我們是尊重當然中間有一些技術性的問題或者一些工程性的問題我會就專業立場就交於採購室主任或是軍備局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4525.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4549.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
这一次当然我们是讲这个规范原物料那这个原物料是完整的配方进来还是要由205厂重新再组合各位看一下右边的这个方框框里面RDX里面它是一个化工的有水油本有甲本已存这个组合进口的原物料请问是液态 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4551.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4572.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
還是沙粒狀還是塊狀還是柱狀我們回來做整合跟委員報告我們進來的RDS就是火炸藥的原料它是一個泡在水裡面的像麵粉一樣泡在水裡面全部都是用一桶一桶用水運過來它的前身就是污漏脫貧 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4574.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4595.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
烏洛托瓶再加上到我們205廠再經過了98.5%的溶硫酸的消化然後再把它精煉然後才會成立一個結晶體結晶體的顆粒越大價格越高結晶體的顆粒越小價格越小就跟鑽石一樣以上報告所以它進來的是桶狀的請問這個合約整個執行的過程全程多長 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4601.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4624.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
合约里面300天要缴一半85吨365天要缴另外的85吨所以就是分两次交运提一个建议因为我们在国际采购过程中间往往第一批交运完了第二批因为政治的因素产生延宕这个时候罚则就不一定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4625.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4642.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那这个部分就是建请以后在分批交货的时候后面有个但书不能因为他国内的情势或者政治因素第一个是延迟交货我们甚至碰到过他不交货了这个时候打官司还去仲裁很麻烦的这个是提出的建议因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4642.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4670.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
你刚刚提的很好最好是一次交货一次交货结案就比较清楚因为分两次一个是中间一个是到第二批到下面提请做一个建议因为这个东西本身它是有一部分的风险危险性所以整个在过程中间各位看这张图表里面我们提出需求市场调查这个过程你们都经历了都没有问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4671.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4693.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
但是呢因为国内啊别的厂商不愿意投标所以得标厂商当然是依法合规他获得标那只是说在这个履约过程中间的履约督导这个军备局跟这个采购室啊要严格督导就是我刚刚向大家提起的因为你是分次交运那交运过程中间呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4694.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4718.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
的安全係數那麼包括航運在哪個地方下船從裝貨那是用貨櫃裝因為是統裝裝在貨櫃裡面有多少貨櫃希望這些數值都能夠掌握住不要在交運的過程中產生了一些意外事件然後權責不清因為我們是收售單位在運送過程中間合約廠商要負這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4720.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4739.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
刚才提到了出口许可门槛值都合标这个是我们乐见很尊重但关键的因素就是到205厂验收以后我们拿到原物料的制成过程中间多少时间可以支持到我们战备需求这是我们内部的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4740.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4758.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
最主要就是因为我们过去参考过有些购案在过程中间它的弹数变了也就是说第二批往后延迟交货甚至还有第三批因为某些因素就不能交货这个时候一些合约过程中的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4759.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4781.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我想部长本身在这个地方是专业了多指导他们因为我们都不能以一切顺利作为预判而是说不理想状况下产生的问题如何解决问题解套最好是全案顺利执行那这边还有一个就是有关这个IMO的规则他因为这是危险物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4782.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4809.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以过着运送过程中间请他要具备一切的这个安全设计的文件那确保我们落地的时候航运过程顺利落地的时候我们运送过程中间是安全一直到到205厂的交货这个我想这个局长您这边把这个重点强调一下跟委员报告所有的城商他得标之后他从出口港 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4810.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4829.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他就是要取得一個合宇國際船舶規定的航運公司他的船到了出口港上了船的貨品到了我們台灣台灣大概就是只有高雄港跟吉隆港兩個港口在報關那大概城商都會選擇以205場為例他會選擇高雄港來報關 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4833.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4853.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們的合約都寫得很清楚了到港下貨之前的全責都是城商負責到港驗收因為火工是屬於國軍專有的專業由我們的人城商不准靠近在安全之旅之外我們的人就是上車按照道路的條例相關的一些的申請都要申請我們的人都受過了勞動部相關押運的相關的規定到了205場我們的管制區之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4859.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4875.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
下運 下運之後再接下去做產品的檢驗也是由我們的專業人員來執行合格 付錢 不合格 退官以上報告那這一段過程中間跟中科院有沒有互動因為過去中科院自己也曾經組合過這種炸藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4886.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4903.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
包委員其實205廠產製的RDX成品大部分是給綜合院使用的好 了解好 謝謝後面有兩個問題我可能請殉斥次次長其他的請回採購的問題沒有殉斥次次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4906.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4929.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
無人機是未來作戰的一個主要的趨勢那不只是無人飛機所有的無人載台UAV USV UUV 水面水下都有我們很多的同仁現在強調的是操作的過程的簽證 認證那我提出一個建議就是因為不同的載台不同的通訊頻寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4931.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4955.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
限制因素这个各军种不一样另外一个就是当操作过程中间目前所谓的轻型无人机都是在我们本岛使用那使用的条件下就是发生有事说国土防卫在这个情况下所以我们的ROE就是战备规定的交战规则的授权 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4956.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4964.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所謂的簽證並不是說操作手他會操作他就要承擔責任因為有兩種狀況第一個是目標誤判 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4966.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4993.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
这个责任是由操作手来承担呢还是操作手说我没有办法确认目标因为这种消耗型的我们宁可让它自毁绝对不能达到我们的民间目标或是不能识别那因为通讯频段不同这种出去使用的飞行时间也有限如果国内有它的上一级那上一级就要承担这个责任所以在同时训练操作的技术这个原则下 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4994.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5021.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
同样在我们的所谓的这个所谓的训练班次乃至于到只参对于大型的中大型的无人机ROE这个交战规则责任承担上下授权到某个level不是操作首付全责这个东西是希望要持续精进的另外一个传回来的是目标的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5022.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5051.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
圖像也好影像傳回或是大型的甚至有訊號回來回來是你傳到上一級單位它跟你使用的是Google的圖片還是有大區的跟我們陸軍作戰區的UTM圖這個在將來在操作訓練上都要做整合的精進我們現階段看到有當然好有比沒有好但是有還要持續精進我講的共同圖像包括火鞋的圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5052.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5077.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
战术的图像还有大区的国防部长官看到整个大范围的图像这个目标的标注位置在大图像上要能够显示出来所以这点我提出建议希望大家共同来努力最后一个议题给部长做参考就是有关军人调薪的部分我本席的建议就是我们退伍军人其实他在服役期间承担的责任跟现役是完全一样 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5078.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5098.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所有的军人我们讲的军人武德自信仁勇言其实他是牺牲奉猿军人不是职业军人是志业因此退伍跟在职其实他应该是享受同样的待遇这点是不是可以请部长指导一下是不是请资源师先说一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5100.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5124.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
報告委員 我是志願司司長因為這部分其實本部向來都會重視不管是現役還是退役軍人的一個相關的福利目前的制度上就是軍公教一體退役軍人的調薪的部分是由行政院會同考試院來訂定它的條件就是說當消費者物價指數累計到正負5%或者是每四年調整一次目前是一致性的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5126.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5144.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
當然我們把軍公教放在一起其實是不同的這是不同的定義不同的解釋因為軍人的志業他的犧牲奉獻以及他承擔的風險跟公教人員甚至跟社會上其他的職業團體是完全不一致的我們私下再來做溝通好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5163.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5165.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好 謝謝趙偶爾 我們有請顧部長請顧部長好 部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5174.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5197.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
部長 針對目前大家所討論的這個軍備局205廠RDX海草根的這個火藥採購案那決標金額因為達到5.9億那也由於這個採購的項目是受到嚴格的管控的戰略物資那有人質疑說得標的廠商因為背景比較單薄會不會產生什麼樣的一個弊端 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5197.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5204.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那部長您也在第一時間有出面做出了回應後續也看到國安部有進一步的這個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5205.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5233.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那在這次的這個專報當中也針對廠商的這個資格標準資格審認的做法以及履約的管制作為等等有相關的解釋但是在這個輿論上針對採購專業和國安的疑慮仍然有相當多的這個臆測和解讀那我想也藉由這次的巡打機會是不是請我們國安部針對疑點能夠盡可能的來釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5234.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5259.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
首先在這個報告當中也有提到火藥的原物料受限於各國產量有限以及地緣政治的影響製造國往往優先滿足自身的一個需求加上嚴格的輸出管制導致供貨非常的不穩定表示說在火藥原物料的供需上可能存在著失衡的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5261.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5284.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那如果國內廠商沒有產製能量也就必須在採購法的規範中來採取廣增商源的一個策略確保我們彈藥武器的生產不中斷那我想先請教部長目前在國際間火藥的原物料取得有多困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5286.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5313.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
國防部在新聞稿當中又特別提到因為這個台灣在國際社會面對特殊的環境一旦商源開發受到惡意的這個破壞干擾採購將更加的困難那這樣的情況有沒有辦法可以避免所以我想第一點我還是再特別強調就是說我們就是要廣增商源 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5315.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5343.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們的把關是在後面的履約的部分是那所以重點就是他能不能夠完成這個構案這個才是我們的重點嘛所以他要能夠拿到這一個當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件拿到原廠的證明文件而且這個品質是能夠經得起我們檢驗的這就是整個案子標案的一個重點這也才是話對重點那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5344.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5370.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
過去 我要強調我們過去20年來過去20年來我們去統計的所有相關這些火料原物料的採購案都是如此 都是公開招標然後他訂的當然你要有公司你要有納稅證明其他另外一個條件就是你能夠從事國際貿易業所以你能夠從事國際貿易業的業務項目那你能夠拿到這個相關的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5372.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5400.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們認為其實取得不易的當地政府的輸出許可的證明文件那他才會願意來進行參標啊那所以你訂定任何其他的資格或者你去計較這公司的名稱這個什麼資本額這個其實在我看來對於他日後能不能履約這件事情沒有相關性 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5402.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5426.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
也就是他有辦法取得政府的輸出許可有辦法拿到原廠的證明有辦法從原廠拿到貨然後原廠願意承擔所有相關這些運送的包括要有專傳然後要有保險等等這些那運抵之後那能夠交貨那我們才會付錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5428.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5453.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
沒有辦法交得了貨我們不會付錢而且他還要承擔履約保證金被沒收他還要被停權所以我們認為整個的觀念就在於履約這個過程上面的一個嚴格的一個監督控管然後我們廣徵這一個商源讓大家都能夠有能力的人都能夠來參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5455.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5471.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這也是我們針對投標廠商的一個這個審認的一個標準那也應該沒有廠商說來投標說它上面是標註它是這個火藥的這個供應商應該是沒有這種廠商吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5471.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5494.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們就是他能夠有國際貿易他能夠有一個代理的資格因為國內沒有自資產能那要從外面採購進來那他只要有從事國際貿易他能夠拿到我剛剛講的這些重要的這些許可的文件然後他能夠拿到貨這才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5496.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5524.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們國軍對於這個生產炸藥的資訊是相對的保密不過有其他的報宅指出我們在數十年前大概在1980年左右我們203兵工廠就曾經建立RDS炸藥的一個生產線並且在近年來205廠也曾經多次招標生產控制系統的違保案以維持RDS炸藥的一個生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5525.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5538.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那我想再請教部長針對我們所需要的這個炸藥國軍是否有自製的一個量能那是因為什麼樣的一個需求或原因才有必要對外採購RDS炸藥跟委員報告軍備局205場 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5540.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5560.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
為了因應各式彈藥火炸藥的需求我們在民國63年就已經依照了美軍MILO STANDARD海藻根的一個標準由瑞士碧雅材原廠計轉設置產線迄今原廠實施維護保養目前都均為妥善的運用那這次為什麼會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5561.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5591.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
外購是因應軍種未來不對稱作戰裝備的需求的量增加現有的廠人無法滿足我們超前部署然後自製以採購來並行所以這次買了170噸的一個海藻根我們後續會編列相關的預算我們會來擴限擴限完成之後我們就是自己來提煉達到國防自主跟滿足我們耳後所有武器裝備生產的需求 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5593.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5593.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
部長還要補充嗎 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5597.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5624.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我想另外對於這個炸藥的一個籌貨如果我們國內有自主生產的一個潛力那也應該考慮到投入更多的資源來強化我們國防自主的這個能力我想針對國內研發炸藥的這個項目這個議題 來 何部長您再做討論去年曾經有報載內容指出那國軍已經成功研製出CL20的一個炸藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5625.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5644.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那它的這個爆炸效能和威力比現有的炸藥大概高出40%的部分過往這個包括美國中國甚至這個俄羅斯都有進行製造製作和運用那我們今年也有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5645.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5661.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
快騎無人攻擊艇搭載CL-20的炸藥的這個消息如果能夠結合各式的武器使用那對於國軍的戰力相當有所提升那我想請教部長有關CL-20的炸藥我們目前生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5663.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5676.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這個生產線的量能進度為何那生產的成本是否能夠再降低後續應用的這種各式國造的飛彈或無人載具有什麼樣的一個規劃可以做連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5677.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5697.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那目前這個組織單位應該是中科院嘛好 那針對這個部分部長或是我們院長是不是可公開的部分可以做簡要的說明是 第一個就是因為CL20的技術已經列入國家關鍵核心技術所以它的量能的部分我這邊沒辦法做很具體的描述 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5697.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5710.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
第二個就是有關它的產製的效益和價格的問題我們現在已經把CL20的前驅物質跟國內的化工廠商做合作前驅物質不牽涉危險性的部分都交給國內的廠商來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5712.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5728.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
後面要精煉的部分再由我們來執行所以它的價格已經比當時在實驗階段降低了一半以上降低一半是 但是CL20因為在國際上大家都是一個很保密的技術也沒有公開的售價所以我們也沒有辦法去評斷說這個售價它的競爭力和標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5731.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5758.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那至於未來運用的規劃部分沒有錯就是我們今年在快騎艇的公開展演上我們的確用了CL20炸藥進去來增加它的爆炸的威能那另外就是未來我們目前初步規劃就是CL20主要運用會在所有國軍自製的無人載具上面包含無人艇無人機只要攻擊型的無人載具我們盡量都把它裝上這種比較高能的炸藥來發揮它的攻擊戰力好 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5761.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5779.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那這個火藥原物料的取得是否順利對於我們軍備的一個量能還有戰力的一個建構都有相當程度的一個影響那我也請國防部務必要以最高的標準嚴格把關那不論是透過採購或是我們自主的研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5780.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5809.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
都盡最大的這個努力來籌獲我們相關的一個戰略物資也藉由這次的事件來檢視未來我們怎樣來強化軍備的採購審查相關的一個規範不但能夠找到合法合規有專業乘坐能力的相關廠商同時取得在社會大眾信任的基礎上這也是需要持續精進的一個部分那這一部分我就請我們部長跟相關部委 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5810.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5833.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我想簡單報告兩點第一點就是說我們身處特殊的國際環境剛剛陳委員也提到了我們其實原物料來源取得不易我們希望大家都能夠讓我們的火藥原物料來源不要因此而斷裂所以在這裡還是希望大家一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5836.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5851.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個支持我們的這些漸進備戰的這所需要的火藥原物料那第二個當然就是說我們國防部都是經得起公開監督檢視好 以上的謝謝部長跟相關部會的答詢 謝謝謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5866.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5868.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5877.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5896.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
部長早 有關RDS海草根的炸藥標案剛剛其實也是討論得非常的多那得標廠商的背景如何又如何這個我在想剛剛部長還有國防部這兩天都解釋得非常的多就像部長所講的我們真的不要畫錯這個重點重點在後面它能不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5896.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5921.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們能禮約那當然本席還是有幾個問題想要就交部長就是延續剛剛陳俊宇委員的這個議題確實是我們都有看到一份報導我們說他有提到就是說有一份報導前兩天然後就提到就是說我們軍方是數十年來首次對外招標採購RDX炸藥是這樣子嗎我們第一次嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5924.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5943.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我的了解是 我們第一次對外採購RDS我們確實是第一次對 因為我們軍備局本來就有一定的產能那我想我們這邊也不宜多說我們這些產能但是我們現在要擴大這個需求那這些擴大需求 所以我們要去做商情的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5944.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5955.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
一個探討那確定國內沒有自製的產能的情況之下我們一定要透過國際貿易商來去向內購外貨那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5958.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5982.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
就跟過去一樣我剛剛已經講了過去20年來有關這樣子的一種火藥原物料內購外貨它的對所有投票資格都是一致的我們這一次跟以前20年來都沒有任何的改變沒有任何改變我們也都是公開招標那我想這個部分要跟國人做一個清楚的報告那也就剛剛委員所講的那真正的重點是在於他會來參標那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5985.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6002.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
就要看他後面的履約他是不是能夠做得到他做不到真的是一翻兩瞪眼他拿不到錢還要被沒收履約保證金還要停權所以他當然他都需要有把握所以我們過去20年來都是如此在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6003.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6018.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
是 所以部長您的說法其實是跟這媒體其實所報導其實是有吻合的他說因為說實在的這RDS它也不是新的炸藥原料其實早在第一次世界大戰以前它就已經合成製作了然後到二次大戰的時候才開始大量的生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6022.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6049.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以它用的用途是用在雷管、火箭、穿甲彈等等用途所以我在想說我們絕對不是第一次有這樣子的需求所以我有看到報導上就想說這數十年來我們第一次採購RDS那表示說像過去幾十年來我們一定有這樣子的需求這表示說我們其實軍備局這裡一直都有能力來做生產只是說現在是量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6049.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6061.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
不足的問題所以必須要對外採購是這樣子的說法就是軍備局有一定的產製的量能當我們現在有這樣子的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6063.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6070.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
產能沒有辦法滿足的情況之下我們就要規劃自製跟採購來並行是 我再請教一下部長因為您剛剛在您的專題報告裡面您有提到我們採購以前一定會辦理公開徵求國內的商員也就表示說我們會確認國內廠商人 物 火 藥 原物 料 產 質 能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6089.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6107.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
像這個部分的話其實這樣國內沒有任何一個廠商有這個能力來製作嗎還是說因為礙於法規的關係所以並沒有辦法產生一個供應鏈我想請教這個部分法規是一個很重大的障礙是因為我們的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6109.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6113.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
要通得過槍炮彈藥卸管制條例要取得內政部的許可才可以製造這些所以法規還沒有鬆綁以前或者是表示說我們絕對不會有所謂的國內廠商只要軍備局205廠這邊沒有辦法產生這個量能的話勢必一定要從國外購入 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6133.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6148.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
像這個部分的話我們有想說往後我們要做政策的這個鬆綁或是法律的鬆綁能夠培植國內的廠商來製作嗎我們有這個方向跟想法嗎這個政策上的一個大方向會 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6150.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6177.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
會是一個非常重大的一個因為我們現在是有關於非這一個主要的這個製程的部分我們可以透過國防部來跟我們的民間廠商來協力但是我們如果主要的這一個能夠組成這個槍炮彈藥的主要的部分包括炸藥等等的我想要開放我們國內的廠商能夠自製這個我想會涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6179.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6202.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我想很多不同的看法因為我們畢竟現在都是沒有讓民間擁有任何的槍枝彈藥然後能夠生產這些火工的部件所以這個可能是一個非常有高度政策性要決定的問題因為我們到現在為止應該是沒有開放給民間 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6204.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6227.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
因為我們現在礙於法規的關係沒有辦法開放給民間那當然我在報導裡面也有看到就同一個報導他說我們原有的RDS炸藥生產機具已經老舊了所以導致產量受限是因為機具老舊的關係呢還是因為需求增加的關係這個部分呢這部分如果說我們又把它拉回到君佩琪這邊來講的話我們要如何克服這些困難本委員報告我們的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6231.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6255.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
沒有什麼老舊沒辦法生產我們的量能我現在不能透露我們量能也是蠻大的可是明後年不對稱作戰的裝備需求更大所以我才要去外國都是每年由原廠碧雅彩公司我們都是用合約請他們來做全線的保養維修訂根件 訂檢件該換的都換這個這一條線目前產能都是沒問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6260.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6278.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
對 因為我有看到說其實他們有看到你們到去年為止還有招標這個維修生產控制系統所以就表示說其實這一直都有在生產 在產值當中只是說就是量能的關係所以不得不外購OK 那再來接下來的這個議題其實呢我想本來是想要討論這個鈍感彈藥的這個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6281.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6284.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
可是這樣聽一聽說實在這個發展可能也會受限於一些法規的關係所以可能這部分這條路可能還有很長的一條路我在想像我們都看到其實有很多國家在國際上都將鈍感彈藥視為防止彈藥庫殉爆或提振後勤安全的一個基本的要求其實我們在數據上上面也有看到像過去的話國際上來講其實也因為彈藥庫爆炸造成很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6308.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6332.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
很重大的死傷我們國內也是一樣所以很多國家其實它有朝向就是說要發展鈍感彈藥可是剛剛我們看到當然我們看軍備局的回答就是說其實雖然是我們的軍工產業是很成熟的可是可能礙於一些法令所以我們沒有辦法跟民間業者國內的業者來合作所以很多中小企業現在沒有辦法投入彈藥研發跟生產所以國內的產業鏈是無法 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6335.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6350.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
來進入就表示說我們這個鈍感彈藥的發展可能會遠遠落後像美國 中國跟北約這些國家所以像這部分的話我們未來是要怎麼樣來做推進跟委員報告我們國軍的鈍感炸藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6352.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6380.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
都是跟美軍同步的都是MILO我們美軍什麼標準我們就什麼標準我們都是依這個標準來所以我們國軍的標準就是美軍的標準第二個我們剛剛探討那麼多的一個RDS它就是所有鈍感彈藥的原料所以我們也是依照MILO的標準然後來設置這個RDSRDS就是所有鈍感炸藥的原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6380.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6396.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
他可以做C4他可以做A5他可以做V炸藥各有不同但是所有的彈藥都叫做鈍感炸藥鈍感度越低他就越安全鈍感度越高比如說像雷管他就是比較不安定的以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6396.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6423.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以其實我們還是有在發展但是我有看這些數據確實是有啦只是說國內其實有些學者也在探討這個說其實跟其他的國家來講像美國啦中國其實他們在這方面的研究在這方面研發其實比起台灣其實是落後了很多因為我也看到像先前的話像我們國防部自己本身出的這個記刊裡面也在檢討這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6425.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6443.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以在想說我們如何減少一些訓誕的一些這個狀況發生減少一些傷亡所以這個部分這個方向也許是大家可能是要要來研究的這個方向就是跟委員報告第一個當然就是說我們現在還是只有軍備局就是只有軍備局會來擴張這個會來擴張產線這是第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6448.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6469.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
美軍後續開發新型的這些盾管炸藥我們會藉台美交流的時機我們來爭取既轉合作現在目前就是這樣所以現在的話說實在我們要提到說要下放到民間企業這是不可能的事情一切都是會在都在後在軍備局這裡好 了解好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6475.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6479.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好謝謝我們接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席麻煩部長請郭部長軍備局長軍備局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6501.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6522.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我今天先不從個案來談我們先講一個大的架構就是說國防供應鏈我們一直希望能夠在台灣自給自足盡量的滿足因為這不僅是經濟跟產業這也牽涉到我們的戰備眾生所以怎麼樣把供應鏈的眾生擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6524.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6541.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這是一個命題但是擴大之後他來投標我們今天看到有人在資格上質疑有疑慮做這個怎麼做那個做馬桶的怎麼做抗氮板做裝潢的怎麼來做炸藥在資格上有人在這上面有疑慮那我們應該好好的面對這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6543.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6554.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
第一個我們在投標上我發現我們國防部在說明的是第一個基本條件叫做合法基本條件可能他的營業登記項目可能資本額 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6555.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6582.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那部長也是法律人坦白講在台灣這個基本條件的符合比較容易那個有一個凱斯國際從國宅一路弄到進出口貿易都可以做你只要願意勾你去做營燈的時候你願意勾通通可以勾所以營業項目根本就不是可以刁難的就是造船的他搞不好可以去造飛機做成衣做內衣的他會去做數位迷彩做腳踏車輪框的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6584.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6602.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
搞不好去做飛彈彈箱我現在講都是有實質的案例做得不錯也就是說基本條件是一個最低的消極資格另外一個叫做專業條件現在被人家挑剔的是這一塊就是說他專業的條件到底有沒有符合所以我們應該要思考所謂的專業條件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6604.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6632.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
合理的專業條件是什麼他就可以進入到這個產業我們可以擴大我們眾生我們希望原來在做機密機械的他可以來造飛機啊我們希望原來那個其實CNC車床要來做砲管做彈藥貴姐手拿啦他那個技術上是雷同的就是說我怎麼樣讓他跨過那個專業的門檻所以只看基本條件容易被人質疑專業不足那但是如果只重視過去時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6634.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6660.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我都懷疑這次有人怎麼這個那個沒有做如果只重視過去的時機就犯我們過去幾十年台灣的軍工業長期被同一群人把持價格高品質差而且根本不是自己做他轉個手找別人來做我相信在這邊夠資深的或者資深的媒體記者應該都知道過去的軍工業就是那一群人然後投標資格交榜上過去五年內有沒有供應什麼有沒有做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6661.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6675.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
連我們中科院那個塔台的東西只因為民航局加一個過去有時機就通通沒辦法處理所以這兩個要平衡我不知道部長有沒有認同我這樣講法就是說我們在建構戰略這個供應鏈的縱深它的重要性是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6677.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6691.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我想就今天大家在質疑的這個案子它的一個重點就是說它不是屬於國內有自治產能的如果屬於有國內自治產能的譬如說我們通常會有一些工程的案子那我們就會要求它有時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6692.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6721.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
時機嘛但是問題是這個不是有國內自治產品這我們國內沒辦法做啦對 所以他的重點在條件上面來講也就是他在履約的時候他最重要最重要就是要拿到輸出國的輸出許可對 所以部長我現在要講的就這一塊專業條件要讓國人了解比方說我在國內的過去的實質的績效其實只能當指標一我建議軍備局可以我們本來就有防場制度嘛我們要確保都是made in Taiwan嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6722.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6736.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這家公司願意投入他有沒有買相關的機台有沒有取得相關技術的認證這是在國內的生產我去房產你根本就沒有啊你沒有機台你沒有這樣的材料你跟我說你賣的在台灣我都懷疑過減稅你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6738.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6752.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
從那邊繞到越南過來的所以我們本來現有機制就有國內生產過去有實質績效我們還要仿廠你的機台符不符合標準你的製程有沒有經過認證你的材料在哪裡取得的有沒有Made in China的材料這個是國內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6753.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6771.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那我們在專業背景上應該要加上就是說如果是對外採購的輸出國的輸出許可這個其實屬於專業的部分那個輸出許可要拿到國務院認證沒那麼簡單輸出國的許可還有一種是比方說我們的F16或者我們一些像對美採購的軍品 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6772.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6798.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
它的維修維保是要認證的有沒有取得原廠跟美方的認證或者我們跟某一國買的某一個機台有沒有取得該國的輸出許可該國的原廠的技術認證這個叫專業背景所以如果某公司過去可能做某個行業是跟軍工業無關可是發現這有商機他公司要擴大投資那我就要看在國內你有什麼機台你有什麼能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6799.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6824.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你如果是要進口你有沒有輸出國的輸出許可你如果是進來的是技術跟服務你有沒有得到認證跟授權我這樣講應該沒錯嘛所以就是說我想以這個不同的這個方式我們有不同的這個有關的一些對他的一些履驗能力的一個審核對 所以我在這一頁我要提醒軍備局就是說不能全部只看過去的時機那會被少數人壟斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6826.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6853.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
可是你在開發新的供應商的時候一定要注意到他的能耐他的國內生產的量能跟原物料的來源如果是進口商的話他有沒有取得相關國家政府的認證許可等等這個叫做專業背景所以現在呢叫做這個岳飛打張飛嘛你就拿消極的基本條件去打專業條件做馬桶是哪裡對不起你祖上八代了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6856.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6869.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
坐腳踏車的是哪裡做錯了為什麼要瞧不起這些行業呢所以我這邊第二頁就看了我後來去找了一下資料合成我們從小就知道合成是做馬桶做磁磚的啊可是合成現在做抗盪磚甲 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6871.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6898.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
人家有投入這樣的設備去做做得好不好你們去驗 我不幫他背書或者像宏森宏森是美方認為是世界一流的車業一般來做基準的那我們現在講這個做漁船的怎麼跑來做軍艦的那個車業那外行的嘛或者像全訓全訓它是做半導體原件製造的它現在轉過來做相關功率的又比方說榮德造船它本來是做客輪的它現在做軍工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6899.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6912.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
另外我剛才提到的有一家玩具公司我們小時候買玩具是買他們家的講他名字也沒關係那個雷虎雷虎是做玩具的做玩具的怎麼跑來做無人機還要丟炸彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6914.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6941.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那就荒謬嘛人家已經轉型或者擴大增加產能我一樣我提例子我對這些公司行號我們也沒有背書你們還是要依照專業去我只告訴說台灣的中小企業很厲害啦以前埃及要買漁網做皮箱的明天就做漁網啦以前跑到阿拉伯飛機都不會坐阿拉伯我們不會講在地上沙子上畫圖他就可以交鐵鎚給他彈性很高但是我們軍方的採購不能看這個我剛才講 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6943.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6958.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
他的專業的成分有沒有具備所以像剛才講某一個腳踏車做輪框的做輪框的我也是在媒體撈到這家這家公司做輪框的現在他用那個特殊材質做我們的飛彈箱做得不錯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6959.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6986.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以這裡面重點在哪裡呢有一些行業是從本業延伸擴大比方說原來合成是做陶瓷他把本業往前延伸做抗蕩陶瓷這叫本業延伸有的叫跨業投資本來呢我是做這一個比方說本來呢像我來舉個例子比方說像全訓原來做的是半導體他現在轉過來做這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6989.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7000.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
舉個另外跟我們行業無關的像台塑 它是做塑膠的啊可是廠跟醫院我們都知道是台塑的我們現在要不要開個記者會這塑膠的看起來好像開心中啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7002.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7030.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
罔顧人命你不會被笑死嗎他跨業我們要看的是什麼我們要看的是他的產品跟服務有沒有符合買方的需求有沒有達標價格及技術是否具備競爭優勢我們如果是看資格的那就要看他的資格限制如果是比價的就是看價格有沒有比人家低大概就看這兩個我們是買方我不管你原來做什麼行業的你的消極資格符合你的專業背景的資格有取得輸出許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7031.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7056.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那就來比價你敢押標你沒辦法履約的話我就要沒收你幾千萬的押標金我確保買方也就是軍方消費者可以買到合格的 達標的甚至於相對品質比較好或相對價格比較低的這才叫做一個完整的採購鏈我們才能去建構台灣不同行業要跨界去進入到軍工業建構我們的軍工供應鏈戰備眾生我不知道我這樣講部長認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7058.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7076.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以不同的這個我想相關的公安有不同的履業能力的要求那我還是再次強調原物料的從國外進口的他重點就在於說他能不能拿到當地政府的這個輸出許可的一個證明而且拿到這個原廠製造的證明文件那個叫做專業背景嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7076.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7101.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
對 那這個拿得到我想他才會可能來進行投標因為他不然會面臨無法履約的風險這些個案我們原來也都沒有去探究是有人提出來我們才去看他原來做什麼行業他到底是本業延伸或者多角化跨業投資我管你投資什麼重要是我要跟你買的時候你交付的東西合不合我的要求有沒有具備專業背景而專業背景 國內製造背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7103.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7131.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
進出口商有進出口商的專業要求所以單純從他營業項目挑一項他做這個做麵包的怎麼跑來做這個我覺得這樣子是邏輯跳太快以外他其實在摧毀台灣建構這一個供應鏈的縱深的過程那內容如果有人模不章違法該送辦就送辦但是你不能把這個模式整個說不行一定保障原來有在做軍工業有時機的那其他的都不行那我們怎麼擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7133.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7154.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
怎麼產生競爭力或怎麼引進新創Enduro原來不是在做軍工業的Enduro原來是在做資訊的或者以色列某一個廠商他原來是在做駭客的現在他擴大他做防駭客所以這個東西其實在軍工業裡面國防部要嚴格把關就是基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件最容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7158.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7184.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
綁住特定人這一個要很橫平的去做處理所以我希望軍備局就這個課題確實人家說做這個行業怎麼現在來做這個那就要好好說明基本條件符合專業條件在哪裡他的專業條件他有拿到美國政府或者國務院或者相關的輸出許可他的交貨要押標多少那如果不能達標我要沒收而這一個火藥是在國內根本沒辦法生產一定要對外採購的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7185.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7200.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那任何人取得輸出許可都來投標嘛價低者得 品質高者得嘛這樣子完整來論述比較和平否則揭露這些攻擊這些甚至於哪一些有的沒有的去牽扯我就說台灣的所有你去看營業登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7202.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7221.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那個勾的選項多到你會覺得很好笑做不蠟甲的 做內衣的這邊搞不好在做五金你知道嗎做水桶的這邊呢在做那一個汽車的什麼電零件的台灣的中小企業那個營業登記就像凱斯國際一樣可以一直勾一直勾一直勾無限勾啊你只要不違法我們沒有什麼可以非難他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7222.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7237.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以以上就這一個部分我反而是透過這個案例希望軍備局跟相關單位在軍事採購上國內採購我們應該要具備哪些基本條件跟專業條件而專業條件不要拘泥於既有的應該去限定房產技術授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7239.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7269.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那如果是採購的我們國內沒有製造對外採購的他要具備哪些要件把它寫清楚讓國人知道這一個不是單純那一句話挑他一個營業項目然後連結到他這個採購案所以這樣不行那不行那我們這炸藥不要買這種性能的炸藥其實是有必要的那不買爽到誰高興到誰所以以上這一個是這個部分那我多問一題馬防部的這一題我一直覺得很好奇 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7271.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7299.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
馬防部的案子我就不再細說了我其實覺得很痛心一個市官長 市都二等長 三等長或上市加上外島家籍 作戰家籍每個月薪水你說好或不好比社會大眾來看其實還算可以怎麼會為了每個月兩千塊到三四千塊錢去把賬號出租給詐騙集團而且看起來是整串的變成賈鶴到修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7300.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7327.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那我要問的基本解問題現在涉案人數到底多少是367還是30億我想就這個部分因為現在檢調單位在偵查我想我們也不適宜公開在這邊軍方自己應該有去調查我們現在現役的涉案有多少我想有啊 那天你們有公佈啊那個數字有沒有更動嘛就請參謀長來說報委員 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7330.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7359.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
入軍面對這樣的事情我們是嚴肅和審慎面對實際上現在可以比較第一個剛才部長說這個整個是目前是連江地檢所在調查那我只能在那邊說目前比較精確和承認的確定的是有7位那其他因為他的涉案的程度有認罪的7位那其他涉案程度跟金流的流向這些東西都還要那個偵查不公開我尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7360.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7389.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
就军方的掌握犯罪的起始点到底是什么时候这不是短期间可以变那么多人有的人一开始怕怕不敢一定是很长大家都没事那一个多一个每个月多两三千这个犯罪的起始点目前我们军方是有掌握但是我这边还是因为起始点牵涉到不能惩处错人刚去三个月的刚去一个月的惩处我觉得没道理已经移开一两年的搞不好是他的管理放纵啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7391.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7393.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
有沒有陣戰人員牽扯在裡面 目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7395.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7421.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
跟委員報告 我想我們這個部門會檢討馬航部跟各級幹部就馬航部各級幹部的一個都管書者那我們現在除了將指揮官跟南竿守備大隊長調離縣子以外我們相關的這些都管幹部的我們併案來檢討事成所以部長 這個案子我們常常講莫非定律會發生在馬祖我就擔心發生在其他地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7422.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7442.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那這件事情我覺得關鍵點是什麼時候開始的如果是兩年前開始從一個變兩個兩個變八個八個變多少一直變那70點那個時候到底是怎麼開始的那時候的管理權責是誰該負責弄到最後變成幾十個人的時候事情就很嚴重了因為最嚴重不僅是跟詐騙集團勾結 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7443.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7470.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
最嚴重是這些資料如果丟給共諜網絡我掌握你這些不名譽的事情你要乖乖交出資料否則我一揭露你就沒工作這一個國安的破洞就是露在那裡因為軍人很怕 你知道軍人連車禍都會害怕我車禍 長官知道會處分我有時候亂處分沒道理啦就軍人很怕有糾紛長官究責我就要背鍋這個事情這些人的名字如果詐騙集團跟對岸的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7471.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7493.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這些很容易被逼的 只好配合這個不僅是詐騙漏洞 這也是國安漏洞所以歧視點或相關的情形 我們相關保防督查至少一份報告給本席跟委員會 好不好該用保密的保密 但我們要知道到底什麼時候開始的 怎麼擴大開始我們調查完畢 我們這邊會做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7499.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7504.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧部長那麼等一下質詢當中如果有其他列席的官員需要補充的就請自行上台不好意思請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7531.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7546.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
部長早因為我們今天的題目很聚焦所以大家其實問的都差不多那麼我想部長藉這個機會也都做了一些澄清不過本席要提醒的是本席在第一時間看到PTT上面的爆料的時候也提醒了國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7547.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7551.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為這一個標案它是在12月10號絕標公告之後在網路的PTT上面下午的2點03分就已經發文開始質疑這一家得標廠商的資格不符包括它的主要的經營登記的事項等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7569.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7596.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
特別用這種方式就是所謂片段的資訊來帶風向質疑國防部在所謂的軍事採購上面的標案有問題而馬上的在三個小時之後也就是剛好5點03分的時候國民黨的王宏威委員也發文質疑了這件事情接下來12月12號國民黨也召開了記者會那麼來質疑我必須要提醒的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7597.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7601.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這一連串會不會是有意針對我們11月25號公布的8年1.25兆的軍事採購特別預算而來我想問部長的是部長什麼時候知道開始面對從網路再到在野黨的相關的質疑那麼我們國防部開記者會我知道國防部有出來開記者會開記者會的時間點是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7625.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7648.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
呃 我們是 我這邊是應該是王宏威委員來的事我有看到相關他的新聞那我們在進行了解嘛是 那花了多少時間來進行了解呃 應該是蠻短的吧應該是我們就一天當天當天嗎 就是等於12月10號可不可以說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7649.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7670.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
是 我們當獲得到這個資訊的時候我們就立即沒有停止查證這個整個這個原案這個案子的始末但是是不是其實在解釋的過程中沒有像今天部長講的這麼清楚我要提醒的是從之前我質疑海昆號的時候我就說過了有關於現在我們任何的軍事尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7671.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7691.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
軍事採購又或者是我們在國防自主跟軍備有關的部分的時候是很容易透過片段性的資訊然後引發國人的不安尤其是導到後來的時候已經做下結論是說來什麼什麼賣馬桶的也可以做活躍所以未來我們8年1.25兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7694.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7700.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
的這個國防預算是不是也會出現同樣的狀況我必須提醒國防部如果這是一個認知作戰的啟動那麼你們的速度更要加快因為第一時間我說實話我就丟了相關的資訊請你們告訴我答案跟做澄清但是我必須講到了今天至少召委安排今天這樣的一個專報 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7714.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7723.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
可以讓部長還有其他單位把事情解釋清楚但是問題是今天已經是12月15號已經經過將近要一個禮拜的發酵了如果可以我認為其實應該要有更多具體的說明這個國人才能夠對我們接下來的國防的軍事採購甚至於軍備上面的整建有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7738.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7759.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
是 我想委員的指教是非常清楚那麼整個案子確實我們在第一時間主要是清查了前五年的整個一個個案狀況那麼因為清查其實需要一些時間那麼這一次我們把往前推20年所有個案狀況通通查出來那這樣子可能說明會更清楚一點那當然如何在最短的時間裡面針對問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7761.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7776.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
然後針對一些疑點來去向社會大眾做一個明確的解釋避免這些錯假訊息或者是認知操作有它的空間這是我們要持續努力好 我必須講這也是一套組合拳啦但是我也必須說就像剛剛部長一直強調的歷經了20年其實這些採購的標準沒有變那麼這20年來當總統的不是只有民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7783.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7786.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
還有國民黨也有馬英九也就是說這一連串的採購但是為什麼會在這個時候反而有關於報告上面也寫得非常清楚了就是廠商的合格的登記然後國際的這個所謂貿易的項目還有就是完稅證明其實20年來都沒有變化也沒有變化但是為什麼在這個時候會變成命題會不會是因為真的部長這就是因為現在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7811.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7838.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
有另外8年1.25兆的國防預算要來了我只能夠說我們國家的這個身處特殊的一個國際環境那麼火藥原物料的取得確實是不容易的一件事情所以我們才會去清查過去20年到底是如何來進行這樣一個招標那我們也查資都是採公開招標都廠商的資格都沒有變 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7839.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7860.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
但是我們還是希望這些商員不要受到惡意的破壞干擾因為確實是不容易那如果受到干擾我們採購會變得蠻困難的那所以有一些誇大不實的渲染已經確實對我們國安安全已經造成了嚴重的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7860.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7869.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
其實部長我想問一個比較輕鬆的啦就是說過去在這20年當中有沒有人真的是大剌剌說我是軍火商我是軍火商我來投標 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7872.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7891.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
有嗎過去其實說實話本席在跑很多新聞的時候多半幕後就說某某軍火商或某某太太但是這些人的背後其實也都是貿易商不是嗎那所以說我想知道的是如果就現在在野黨的質疑的話未來是不是我們要以標的為所謂某某軍火商 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7894.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7909.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我來投標了這樣子才符合現在質疑的標準不然的話就像剛剛我很認同王定宇委員所提的很多的企業他們會做轉型本來我也提出了像比如YAMAHA做樂器的但他們現在也做引擎也做其他相關的這種軍工產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7912.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7914.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那如果是這樣的話是不是這些產業都不能轉型做馬桶的一輩子要做馬桶然後呢蓋房子的一輩子要蓋房子只要他們做轉移就會被質疑那麼接下來我們是不是就是只有標明說我是軍火商我才能來賣火藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7929.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7955.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我想重點就是這個廠商不管他的公司名稱是什麼那他只要有能夠從事國際貿易的業務那能夠拿到原廠的授權然後而且交貨經過光部嚴格的測試驗收合格合法的旅約這個才是一個重點因為他交不出貨我們就沒收旅約保證金並刊登停權這個就是一個最直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7956.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7983.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對他的不能履業的一個監督那所以每一個會來投票場都是會要想清楚的好 其實我也非常認同啦就是過去台灣的環境當中我們曾經有經歷過是想買武器錢準備好了其實是買不到的會有各種的阻撓然後讓這些人根本無法順利的把我們所需要的軍備或者是相關的這種軍備所需要的原物料拿到我們台灣買 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7984.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7997.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
輸入到我們台灣的手上所以最重要的其實對我們來講我們是甲方能夠讓對方乙方履約我想這是最重要的但是同樣的我也要問喔就是沈記長在立法院的質詢當中提出了這個部分本來我要再接著質詢不過剛剛中科院有特別提到了那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8006.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8026.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
沈記長的話到底是沒有完整的被陳述還是說沈記長所點出來的問題沒有被國防部或中科院重視到底是真的中科院變成了所謂的家族事業嗎然後偽造的工廠中科院真的沒有辦法來辨認他們嗎 來 院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8031.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8052.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們第一個我們先講家族事業好了這個按照行政法人法第20條的規定行政法人的首長和董事不得推薦三等級以內的人員進入這個行政法人來服務當然我們中科院規定的設置條例更嚴格我們是針對所有主管都不能推薦三等級以內的人親屬進來服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8053.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8077.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那當然就是說中科院有一萬多個員工我們相對是屬於比較封閉型的業務性質所以我們裡面的夫妻裡面有73%是入院以後才結婚的就造成這個比例比較高但是這個我們也沒辦法明確去禁止那會變成如果就審計部的審計出來的規範的話那會不會變成要求他們其中有一位要離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8078.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8083.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為他們是入院後才結婚我現在提出來不是要求而是這個會變成是審計部如果用到這個講法的話進去了認識了聯誼才結婚其實我相信很多比較封閉的環境一定會是這樣因為他們沒有機會但是如果審計部拿這個來做他們審計的要求的時候那會不會變成這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8103.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8125.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
入院以後結婚我們當然不會在此限但是我們會把它的業務盡量不會有重疊的關係就是希望盡量讓他們在業務上面不要變成一條龍的狀態把它調到其他的部分另外剛剛你有特別提到的就是希望財政部的關務署能夠協助你們在報關上面做一個連線的部分那麼什麼時候溝通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8129.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8147.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
審計部的報告出來以後我們就直接用審計部的報告去跟關務署協調過好 那莫名得道的回覆是什麼因為我們不屬於公部門所以沒有辦法直接連線所以是跟財政部嗎關務署關務署回覆你們就說因為不是公部門那可不可以借用主席最後一點時間就是這樣子的連線 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8150.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8153.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
它可以造成什麼好的影響我覺得這個其實在質詢上面是必須講的雖然你們不是公部門那你們是行政法人但是我認為這個就是一個讓我們軍購跟軍事採購上面能夠更加透明化的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8167.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8171.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
就是如果關務署可以給予這樣的連線好處是什麼如果沒有這個你們現在現行上遇到的狀況是什麼我必須說因為本席剛好過去是來自於台政委員會我剛剛聽到之後我非常在意這個問題如果他是有助於能夠讓我們軍事採購更透明化的話那我們就要努力的去做協調甚至於本席來做協調都沒有問題因為這個也可以杜絕今天我們在討論的這個題目上面大家認為的就是來源不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8197.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8201.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
或者是來源可能出問題或是來源去佐證或舉證的時候造成的所謂不必要的紛擾爭議或者是抹黑跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8209.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8233.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
關於中科院跟關務署原本是沒有連線的那經過我們這幾天我們跟部長跟我們相關單位我們研討這是一個可行就杜絕而後這些事情我們下期會研討來跟關務署來做好相關的協調是否把中科院納入直接可以連線的部分還有我們軍備局也許可以透過軍備局吧如果我們再跟關務署協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8234.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8256.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好 我認為這樣的一個過程當中就像剛剛子薰也特別提到過的如果可以明確的了解產地然後輸出的地方 輸入的地方我覺得這個是有助於讓整體的軍事採購更加的透明化我期許有從這個方向如果需要的話本席都願意來做協助跟溝通好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林祖英委員的發言謝謝喝口水喝口水 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8269.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8272.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長 區備局局長還有中科院院長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8294.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8316.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
今天有非常多位的委員其實我們有在討論這一個高爆彈藥RDX這個採購還有包括我們的HMX所有的採購大家為什麼會質疑不是因為他跨業去做如果他有很好的能力很好的研發大家不會有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8317.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8331.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
今天合成為什麼可以做抗彈板中科院非常清楚因為那是中科院的科研的經費跟他合作他要做的是裝甲車的抗彈板對不對今天所以他不是因為他做馬桶來做這個是類比的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8335.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8343.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
今天如果台塑他本來是做塑膠可是他去開醫院重點是幫病人開刀的是醫生所以你必須要一步一步到位你必須要有相當的專業你必須要達到這樣的條件今天大家質疑的是這個部分我們如果回過頭來說過去20年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8361.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8363.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
大家看過相關的記錄我們把它導回正題我們把它劃對重點今天大家的重點就是這一家廠商到底具不具備因為他不是採購一般的東西他買的是高爆彈藥如果像你們講的他不用有時機他只要有履約能力你怎麼判斷他的履約能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8383.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8387.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
他的規模小他的資本額少他也沒有過去的時機然後他也不是做這個本業的他也沒有相關的軍工經驗我不知道我們為什麼可以去認為他就有這樣的時機過去國防部或者很多相關的官員也在這個台上跟我們所有委員會不管所有的委員都說海昆艦輸出許可一定可以拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8410.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8413.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
為什麼他可以得標就是因為他可以拿到輸出許可可是我們看現在的結果在過去有很多的經驗如果國防部要得標的廠商很多有委員質疑說這樣可能會被綁住隨便寫一個時機他就可以一直做一直做 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8430.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8439.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個就是過去的弊端可是我們也不是在這裡你這個都可以隨便把它取消掉的我想請教一下軍備局長剛剛你有提到說我們現在買回來的到底是什麼東西你買回來的到底是什麼東西RDSRDS你在上面寫得清清楚楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8449.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8455.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
所以你回來還要再經過強酸的強硫酸洗還要乾化不用了不用嘛你剛剛提出來讓大家覺得是你還要經過這樣的程序喔我剛剛解釋的是我們205廠也有產RTS它的原料是烏洛托瓶然後經過消化然後把它炸 是我剛剛是這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8471.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8492.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以讓所有的委員很清楚的知道你買的不是原料因為RDX你在上面的採購招標上面其實寫得清清楚楚就是RDXRDX如果它為什麼會不好做 換你它只有三個主要成分你只有六亞甲基一氏胺 還有硝酸 還有胺硝酸胺就是這是三種東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8494.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8500.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
他要把它做成RDX是比較困難的在你過去你也不是沒有量能因為第一時間提供給部長的資訊是錯誤的說我們國內沒有量能 不對國內有量能只是因為我們國內廠商沒有量能啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8511.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8522.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們自己可以做就是有量能我們軍備局我們現在在外購的時候部長沒關係啦我當然不會講到我們軍備局啊所以那個委員不給我拿著我兩句話的時候只好講個廠商兩個字說我在說謊啊這我不能接受啊部長有人說你說謊嗎你是律師我說你說謊嗎你從哪裡聽來我看到新聞報導啊要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8532.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8536.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
你掉出來說謊量能如果軍備局可以跟廠商一樣可以做RDX他就是一樣也是廠商啊他賣給中科院啊再賣給我們國軍啊那他也是廠商啊你今天有很多過去他們做一些服裝做抗彈板也是賣給國軍啊那他也是廠商如果你要用這樣子去抓雨病的話那我們今天就可以把它說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8557.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8575.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們要說的是他們提供給你是錯誤的資訊我們不是沒有量能而是你現在如果要增加你可能要必須要外購所以要增加這樣子的一個量能而不是我們沒有這是第一點要說的所以我們今天要談到的不是像剛剛有很多委員提到的說大家還要帶什麼風向這個要帶什麼風向你所有的過去的廠商有資格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8584.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8611.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
中科院我想要請教一下這一次這家廠商他在三月拿到我們HMX的標案他在增加這個營業項目的時候只有短短三個月他是先拿到輸出許可嗎不是所以他沒有輸出許可可是你們把一億多的標案給他了嘛對不對是經過三次招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8612.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8615.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
為什麼過去你們這個不是第一次啊中科院做那麼多的飛彈飛彈是我們國內的強項你也做雄二你也做雄三你也做天空你做過很多所有的飛彈砲彈你都有需要這樣子的一些原料可是過去這些廠商為什麼不來標為什麼都留標為什麼只有一家廠商其實RDS跟HMX都一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8636.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8651.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
他都是在絕標的次日期他一定的日期之內他要取得外國政務或授權許可或核發輸出許可證明啊他也就是要有把握他才會來投標啊那我們並沒有在招標資格上面訂定這個資格但是他還是要提出這樣的文件他才有可能履約啊你剛剛有聽到我問我們的中科院長嗎你有聽到他回答嗎他有拿到輸出許可嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8663.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8680.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他現在已經在9月30號他在標的時候有拿到輸出許可嗎我們這個案子也在標的時候沒有要求他拿到輸出許可啊所以為什麼你們會認定他可以嗎我們20年來都是如此啊都是在絕標之後的一定時間內去拿到輸出許可啊你的海昆號就不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8682.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8687.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們這一個是原物料 一個是海昆電你們不能夠拿兩種完全的東西來做類比這是我們的高爆敗尿一天我們要做很多包括我們的特別預算裡面有2400億 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8697.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8698.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
除了做船以外做了很多的飛彈那時候我們都沒有缺你今天在這一家廠商在他通過去年12月剛通過的時候你可以拿到我們HMX還有這個還比RDX更危險喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8712.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8718.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們先來提一下這個廠商他自己說的聲明裡面有什麼樣的狀況部長請冷靜的聽因為你是法律人你應該很清楚我們今天質疑的是這個不是一般的東西你今天如果是買車輛你今天如果是買救護車你今天如果是買其他的東西大家可能可以接受今天你這個廠商他本身因為不是過去通通沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8740.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8755.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
HMX這個過去有很多家廠商長期以來在做你都說你可以回溯過去20年的這樣的一個履約的資歷表示有很多人做因為我們的熊二熊三也不是現在才做所以這些東西早就有進口MX它是美國的其實這個更危險你們有沒有隱藏啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8764.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8768.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
RDX也沒有理由隱藏我們一直在講說我們現在採購多困難它有什麼困難這個廠商自己都說只有中國和印度他就提兩個國家我們先看他昨天的回應我們把它分成兩套邏輯因為他大概自己分成兩套邏輯然後他兩段敘事 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8789.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8793.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
他把它寫成讓一般人老實說不是看得太懂因為他說他拿到美國的授權讓大家覺得他很有專業性可是剛剛我們的中科院長說他在這之前他根本沒有拿到我們的輸出許可那他有拿到授權不是因為這家廠商美國這個是因為中科院所以才給我們這樣的授權這個必須要很清楚的釐清他是為了那家廠商給的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8820.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8843.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
美國是為了那家廠商給的在短短三個月的時間因為他有強調這家公司他強調美國軍工大廠十年的授權問題是這一份授權在中科院的標案上面用的這個不是軍備局的RDX的採購案因為這是給中科院的他的採購不用政府採購法 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8844.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8852.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
中科院的採購是不需要政府採購法這個是比較容易的所以先取得中科院這樣子的一個標案其實應該是比較容易按照政府採購法在辦理這個採購案沒關係 因為採購法這個部分我們今天要討論的重點並不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8860.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8862.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
因為採購法上面你們要怎麼樣去讓他可以可以勉強通過或模糊其實都沒有關係我們現在比較質疑的是你先你剛剛說他是先拿到授權嗎他有拿到授權嗎10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8876.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8882.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
幫我確定那個我先跟委員講我們HMX的採購過程沒有啦沒關係你簡單講就好時間的關係簡單講就是說以前我們沒有講這個案子講這個案子以前的來源沒有來投標他拿到授權他拿到授權這一家公司拿到這個大廠的十年授權還是中科院不能保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8895.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8923.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
他只有拿到授權但是他昨天講十年獨家代理這個我不敢幫他保證所以你們在他得標的內容上面只是因為沒有三家廠商只有他一家來這是唯一的條件第一次招標沒有廠商第二次是另外一家公司投標但是超過底價所以沒有決標第三次變成只有他這一家來而且是在我們的底價範圍之內所以才決標所以你也不敢幫他保證他有沒有授權對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8925.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8939.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
獨家代理就請他拿出輸出許可證明後來他就拿到了但他拿到輸出許可證明就代表他的確接到授權了這個就是問題點你今天先說我們拿到授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8940.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8945.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
他因為他得標了嘛今天為什麼他可以拿到輸出許可是因為他拿到中科院的標案用我們的標案再去美國拿這個在座的各位應該都非常清楚他為什麼可以拿到因為拿到我們的標案再去取得這樣子的這樣子的一個輸出許可是比較容易的因為美國不會平白無故因為他過去20年來我們得標的廠商全部都是國際貿易業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8967.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8969.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
外面也都是在決標之後一定時間拿到這個輸出許可部長 這個你已經講過了我現在講的是我們提的意見跟看法因為他就是拿了我們的這個標案以後他才去取得這樣的輸出許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8983.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8987.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個也是 這就是你們的程序啊這就是你們的程序因為你先讓他得標了嘛我們現在再來看看因為美國他不會平白無故授權一家去年12月才變更項目然後沒有軍工履歷沒有相關進出口紀錄這樣子的一個廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9002.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9006.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
他相信的是我們國家還有中科院這是第一點第二個福邁的這個聲明他也把它拆成兩段我們可以看到他第一段用中科院的授權來讓他的專業性可以提升第二段他講到軍備局的RDX |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9021.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9028.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
他講了兩個國家他說中國跟印度所以可見你不可能跟中國買那其實他的來源就是印度可是這兩件事其實是不同的標案它也是不同的系統我們要說的中科院其實它是 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9037.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9061.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
比較不需要政府採購法當然你要說他用最低標或什麼那都沒關係今天為什麼其他家在你中科院從過去到現在都有能力都有經驗都有軍工背景都有相關的這些資歷的他們全部都沒有來投標這也是應該要去理清楚其實很簡單就是原來要賣那個國家不賣了現在他是重新要去取得美國如果您一定要我講就這麼簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9067.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9076.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以這就是我們取的來源不易啊當那個國家不賣的時候我們之後找另外一個國家啊所以這一家廠商他自己去跟美國談 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9077.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9079.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
當然是嗎是啊很好然後你去年12月才變更項目隔年3月拿到標案先拿到已經有授權然後就是你去換授權跟換輸出許可另外RDX的部分印度出口其實是不會受中國影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9100.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9117.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們剛剛講了兩個HMX我們並不確定我們並不確定在今天鬧出這麼大的事件之後我們不知道我們沒有我們不知道印度會不會受到影響有什麼樣的影響RDX印度不會賣給我們嗎印度怕中國嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9119.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9142.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
你們的意思是這樣嗎我們不是一直說我們現在國際的關係都很好我剛剛部長有講到一個就是說後來美國不願意賣給我們這個中科院院長在這裡證實一下好不好HMX美國不賣給我們我們之前從來沒有跟美國進過這一次是第一次之前來自於歐洲的一個國家現在不肯再賣給我們了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9143.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9157.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
對好歐洲的國家不願意來賣給我們可是我們跟美國的關係美國也不會懼怕中共美國其實他要提供給我們的困難度也不高因為他有很多其實是我們中科院或者甚至我們軍備局做完以後其實我們還可以再協助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9160.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9172.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們只是沒有直接出售我們也沒有辦法軍售可是在商用的部分其實我們也賣過很多所以就這個部分美國也不會因為只有一家因為大家現在比較關切的就是這個部分所以在這裡我們還是想要最後利用一點時間我想要請教一下我們這一次的標案總共多少金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9184.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9186.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
時間有多長預算金額是8.2億那實際5.9億決標所以他的附件上面有一個擴充條款多少錢擴充也是812也是812是的兩個時間點多長我們這一次第一次的組合約我們第一次的組合約起程多長 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9209.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9217.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
數量多少簽約之後的第一批是300天第二批360天沒有 我就是說你的復健後面是幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9219.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9245.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
就是你的擴充合約是幾天擴充是到117年擴充合約是幾天告訴我們幾天因為你分兩個階段嘛你一個就是我們現在的主約擴充合約是可以到117年12月31號我們這一個是第一個是300天是的第一批分兩批第一批要300天簽約後300天交然後第二批是簽約後360天交所以我們的主合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9246.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9254.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
也就是說我們的組合約是有六百多天對不對是六百多天大概兩年對不對不是不是 擴充合約的部分是要看我們要不要執行我們有權利不執行下面的履約沒有辦法我們也不會執行我們的軍備局認為沒有這個擴充在外購的需要也不需要擴充請聽我講完我的問題我要的是答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9272.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9273.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我想要請教的因為這個裡面有組合約就是現在的得標的金額5.2億5.9億所以他分兩個階段就是300天跟365天 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9287.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9314.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
360天所以他總共有660天同樣是從簽約簽約期300天和簽約期360天他只是要分兩批最晚時間是360天一年多然後後續的他的擴充條款後擴是可以在117年12月31日前來執行有數量嗎數量也是一樣一樣的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9317.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9324.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以他的那個擴充金額為什麼你還是用原來的金額因為你得標的金額已經降下來了可是你擴充合約的金額還是一樣你甚至比第一次的組合約還要高到時候底價的訂定會參考不是部長我們過去沒有前例我們的擴充合約其實不會比我們的組約還要高預算還要高這是基本的不管你所有的發包所有的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9347.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9360.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那個後擴的那個金額那是預算預算金額來編不是我現在要講的是你為什麼要後擴這樣的金額因為你的金額已經比主約還要高了你後面是9億你後面是9億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9369.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9384.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
8.2億你的擴充的金額比那個我們現在在這裡請部長做一個決策今天因為過去沒有這樣子的一個案例你都還不知道他好不好你甚至都不知道他的履約的能力好不好這跟我們之前在談到的像我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9388.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9391.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
就是我們的國軍的服裝攻受戰的概念是一樣的你一簽連擴充條約大概長達八年而且高達百億以上這是非常高的而且中間其實幾乎很難讓他有解約的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9403.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9427.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為要罰款也罰不了跟委員報告我們的擴充合約就我了解我們有不執行的一個空間我們沒有一定要執行這個擴充合約我剛已經講了擴充合約還要當然還要看他前面的履約的狀況如何他如果履約沒有沒有能夠履約根本沒有後面的擴充第二個我們的捐配給要考量他自己本身的產能如果我們認為已經夠了我們不需要執行後續的擴充合約這個權在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9431.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9441.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那所以為什麼要簽擴充合約我們只是認為如果他已經有拿到輸出許可了他就有能力輸出許可隨時都可以終止那當然他後續的執行他後續的執行會決定的後面他擴充我們的擴充的這個履驗能力的一個評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9454.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9466.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
部長我們現在簡單再來想這個案子因為一個就是他的沒有資歷規模小或者因為你們說要讓大家都有資格嗎只要有貿易條可以有進口國際貿易的這樣的條件因為放寬許多其實就可以來投標 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9472.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9476.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以既然他的條件是這樣如果他做得不夠好 你說你可以要擴充條約或不要可是通常你綁了這個以後 因為你現在很明顯的他的擴充條約的金額 他已經遠比他現在標的金額還要高了他現在5.9億 可是你後面的擴充金額是9億不是 8.2億就預算金額嘛 到時候訂的底價一定不會是這個金額嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9502.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9510.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
部長你給他寫在合約上面他就會用那你可不可以在這裡那我們這一次訂的預算金額也是8.2億啊我們的底標是8.2嗎不是啊所以我現在意思就是他明明就可以5.9億可是因為你訂了擴充的金額所以他就一個綁在一個8.2億那你可以要求他說他的擴充的金額不可以高於現在他得標的金額嗎可以嗎合約上面可以訂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9530.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9546.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
合約上面可以訂嗎因為在招標文件當時我分AB第一階段和後擴第一階段後擴招標文件就已經因為依預算規劃來訂那後來絕標金額是5.9億那我們就不能再去反過來去改變當時招標文件的這個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9547.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9550.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以特別在這裡我們現在講的就是你在每一個招標尤其是最近過去還沒有這麼多現在每一個幾乎都有擴充的這個合約擴充條款這些擴充條款已經把那個金額都綁在上面了你今天他可以5.9億標可是你現在卻願意給他8.2億他就是可以有這麼高了沒有願意要給他8.2億委員怎麼可以一直這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9574.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9583.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
部長 好 那沒關係我們現在要講的是你在合約上面可不可以訂定其實它就不是不可以高於現在的主約的價格可不可以這個事後要等到我們執行擴約的時候我們會來參考這個委員的意見嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9592.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9599.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們一定會遵循這個合法的一個情況來辦理公開招標的扣約程序的內容的執行這你非常清楚合約簽訂以後就是這樣的金額今天這就是大家可能比較質疑的我們現在要求一下我們希望可以提供這些相關的一些記錄就是服賣他有保險嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9615.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9621.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
有危險品的乘運能力然後有IMDG申報文件然後有招標單位是不是都有看過那這有沒有防場另外危險品運輸有沒有相關的一些證明的資料這些我們希望其實在過去我們有要求的剛剛有提到我們依照美軍的紀律嘛美軍的規範所以美軍如果怎麼要求我們也這麼要求好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9643.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9662.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
反正後續他會拿到數據的證明他會跟原廠那邊會就這些相關來加以律定嗎這個部分我們要求跟美軍的相關規範是一致的而不是只有選擇性的這個部分在後續再提供給我們謝謝謝謝委員下面請吳宗憲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9689.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9697.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
主席我這邊先有一個會議詢問報告主席我想請教一個有個東西我想先提出來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9699.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9708.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們這邊可不可以請我想請主席才是我們可不可以要求委員會正式發文這稱公共工程委員會 廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9709.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9723.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
省紀部針對國防部近五年來火藥原物料採購涉及本案還有本案啟動專案調查跟集合我想這個部分因為這是針對國防部的RDX採購5.9億的採購案結果主席有開過記者會還有剛剛我一路這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9730.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9757.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
看下來有多位委員提出他有提出非常多的質疑點那也引發社會的質疑我想國防部是拿了人民最多的納稅錢去發生這樣荒腔走板的採購案那這個不是冰山一角這都人民的血汗錢這也凸顯出國防部採購制度有很大的弊病我想提出來就報紙第一個內部監督機制是完全失靈專業被長官一致凌駕那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9759.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9786.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
濫用刑事上面的合法剛主席您的質詢裡面有提到很多這個點他用濫用刑事上面的合法來掩蓋實質上面的風險他就憑一張營業登記有寫國際貿易資本額也不足的廠商也不高的廠商就可以承攬這個巨額的採購如果一個近6億的案子都能夠搞得如此漏洞百出那未來高達1.25兆的國防特別預算我們人民怎麼放心交給國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9787.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9808.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那所以我是希望說國防部現在已經沒有辦法自律我們應該引進外部的監督單位所以我是希望就是說委員會這邊能夠才是我們責成工程會連政署還有審計部把這近五年的火藥原物料還有本案啟動專案調查我想我調查幾個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9811.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9832.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
包括底下這幾個點但是不限於這幾個點第一個工程會的部分要針對國防部採購巨額的採購為依法規避特定資格包括財力跟實際支銷的審查反而降低門檻是否為特定廠商量身訂做這有沒有行政疏失這是請工程會要調查第二個廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9833.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9859.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
針對單一廠商投標資格顯不相當還有廠商變更登記還有異常等等的情節要調查押標金跟履約保證金的來源有沒有綁標圍標或是圖利特定廠商然後也要檢視國防部內部的陣風提出防弊還有制度的改善要請他們也要做到還有審計部要全面檢討國防採購效能要查明有沒有違反預算用途驗收放水 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9859.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9878.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
未依約追罰並且針對這一類的高危險的旅約案件提出風險控管的調查報告那我想如果可以的話是不是一個月內針對個案相關委員會還有今天來質詢的各個委員辦公室能夠提交報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9878.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9902.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
然後三個月內針對國防部近五年的軍火採購案件能夠提供調查我想我跟主席報告就我強調一個點這個不是我們委員個人跟國防部之間的攻防因為這是涉及到整個外交國防委員會代表人民在做內部的監督那不是說事情發生了就叫一堆網軍出來亂洗一通網軍現在不是在罵說什麼合成公司當年也 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9905.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9920.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那個標了那個抗彈板問題是抗彈板本來他材質一部分就是陶瓷嘛他又是個上市公司怎麼可以拿來比這一次這個火藥採購的這個案子呢兩個完全差距這麼遠一個是在做他的專業而且上市公司另外一個我們不知道他在幹什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9923.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9927.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我想我們要讓國人看到這不是究責而是我們要搞清楚國防採購到底發生了什麼事情我想是不是主席可以才是做這樣子折騰這幾個單位來進行調查就吳宗憲委員所提的這個建議因為涉及本委員會還有非本委員會的部分如果說是我們本委員會的那就由我們主辦的委員會來主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9948.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9954.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那另外如果是本委員會的因為今天臨時提案的時間已經過了那我們會找適當的時間我們來以臨時提案的這個方式我們再來提出那另外其他非對口單位比如說像工程會啊或者其他相關的可能在48委員會或者其他的委員會我們來共同來提出然後看有必要的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9977.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9989.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
需要用怎麼樣的聯席會議或者其他的我們再來一併處理好不好謝謝主席我想這個國防預算的支出是國內最大項的支出我們還是要讓國人知道到底發生了什麼事情好那我們麻煩部長謝謝部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10002.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10015.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
謝謝國防部長你們的報告也有提到說其實你們是經得起公開監督的啦所以我們才會說我們用一個公開監督的方式來處理我建議委員不要查五年啦你應該是查過去二十年好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10015.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10033.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
沒問題 沒問題我們到時候委員會聊我們20年嘛謝謝你要查的話部長 我也相信部長跟我一樣我們對於國家有忠誠的義務所以我們一定希望把事情釐清那也不要說讓有人背負不白之冤所以把事情釐清我想是你我跟國人都希望的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10034.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10049.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
請問一下你們新聞稿提到押標金3%履約保證金5% 180天內提出輸出許可驗收不合格就解約 沒收保證金這部分是你們這一次的報告還有新聞稿提到的請問是或不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10051.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10075.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們會在這個他如果沒有辦法提出輸出去的證明然後之後又沒有辦法提供這一個產地證明原廠製造證明文件然後並且沒有辦法能夠交貨的話那我們就有或者是檢驗沒辦法合格我們就辦理結案付款不合格的部分都辦理退貨由廠商回運原產地 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10076.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10092.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這個內容我想大家都知道我只是說這個數據沒有錯但是部長這個採購法的核心是要求政府你用納稅人的錢去找廠商合作重點是要審查廠商的資格是要一開始就要避免有交易的危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10094.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10114.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以採購它有兩個很重要的關鍵點我想部長您是律師我是檢察官出身的我們對於採購法都很熟悉我們採購有兩個最重要的關鍵點第一 旅淵能力第二 進出口經驗跟供應鏈這兩個很重要的關鍵點所以今天你們的新聞稿有提到說裝潢公司有營業國際貿易所以符合採購資格這個沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10119.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10146.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
你們有這樣子講嘛對不對我們過去20年來對於外購的這些火藥原物料的採的資格都是如此也就是說具有國際貿易的資格就都可以但是呢依據巨額採購的標準5.9億的採購案至少要有十分之一的財力證明啊這家廠商的資本額只有1900萬不到三分之一那連你說的5%的危機是2950萬都賠不出來那這個我就覺得就是一個很大的風險啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10148.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10170.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們是用押標金跟旅業保證金來督促他預約旅行我跟你講你講到這個就是我等一下要講的啦所以你們認為說廠商只要繳得出押標金旅業保證金期限內能夠提出這些原廠證明我們就認為他有代理人能力嘛對不對如果沒有你們會解約這是你從早上講到現在但是我跟跟部長報告一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10171.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10186.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你這等於是放任廠商拿國防部的合約去跟銀行貸款所以他是在做無本生意部長解約跟賠償是兩回事您是律師我覺得這能不要混淆視聽我給一個比喻 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10187.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10202.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
第一個他可能會發生的他債權可能沒有辦法實現因為你們一直講的是說他違約我們有什麼處罰旅遊保證金5%押標金3%你一直講這個但是我今天是國防採購我不是要採購一個官司案 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10203.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10224.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以我為什麼希望他最後會走到那一步呢我當然是希望採購能夠順利嘛所以啊所以我們採購能夠順利就是要拿到輸出期可證明啦他沒有辦法拿他就沒辦法履約我們沒有付錢啊部長我沒有問你所以呢今天發生幾個問題我點出問題點好不好第一個你找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10226.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10244.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
去承包這麼大的案子那這個會發生什麼 就好像騎腳踏車不小心撞到法拉利一樣出事了 對 你可以告我我可能要賠你一千萬但不好意思 我賠不起嘛債權憑證嘛我們念法律人不是最喜歡講我沒有需要告他 我沒收履約保證金履約保證金他已經繳在那裡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10245.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10270.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
然後第二個 我跟你講反正他今天不管發生了什麼事情我搞不定 我賠不了 那我就宣告倒閉就好我就再講一次嘛我不管他有沒有宣告倒閉我默說他履歷保證金就是我違約的時候的處罰嘛部長 部長 麻煩你冷靜一下我再說一次 我房採購我是要保衛國家用不是為了未來找官司用的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10270.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10292.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我的主軸是要保衛國家不是要找一個以後可以打官司所以我覺得就算打贏官司我們拿到一個債權憑證或是我們沒收了他的押標金意義在哪裡他的旅遊保證金已經在我這裡了我立即跟他沒收所以我今天就覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10293.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10310.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
第一個我們可能拿到紙紗債權憑證第二個會有戰備空窗啊對不對如果說今天你說可以解約嘛對不對好那我們買炸藥是為了備戰不是為了打官司初次解約有什麼用戰備還是發生真空啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10311.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10329.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那我在乎的是這個點嘛錢不錢是小事但是他可能會產生一個戰備的空窗這就是為什麼我們在採購的時候尤其對於巨額的採購我們設定很多條件嘛因為國家是希望採購能夠順利成功而不是希望未來可以去打官司打贏我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10330.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10353.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這點我非常贊同所以我們就是開放開放所有的廠商重點就在於他絕標後一定要拿到輸出許可證明啊實際是零今年進口也不到1600萬根本就違反巨額採購的標準因為你至少要2.36億要有五分之二的軍火交易經驗嘛但是他是零所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10354.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10383.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
如果今天喔他是廠商是拿了國防部的合約去跟銀行抵押借錢繳押標金保證金這個叫做融資這不叫做實質的財力好那我們的採購法為什麼一直希望來標的公司要有實質的財力就是不希望他到時候兩手一攤我公司倒閉就沒事了國家還是希望一個非常良好的廠商來標因為我們希望每一個標都能夠順利軍火能夠拿到所以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10385.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10408.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
再來我想這次的絕標公告裡面有提到原產地是中華民國那我以為我看到了這個字眼我覺得原產地國別是中華民國那就應該是在中華民國生產但現在又爆出說是在其他地方可能印度可能美國那我就搞不清楚了這個是習產地嗎還是這個是詐欺這我就搞不懂了 地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10410.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10430.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
會不會說事後解約然後這個所謂的我們嚴格審查機制其實讓空國公司是不是全身而退這是把風險丟到第一線的過去那我再跟你說因為我自己辦公室的一個助理女生她小孩差不多當兵的年紀她最近每天都很擔心她看到的是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10431.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10450.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們看到新聞說原本好像是差不多8.24億的一個一個標案後來廠商有5.93億標下來看似替國家省了錢但是我們以前看過採購案的人都會覺得這種異常的低標將本求利的時代他會不會意味著偷工減料那我沒有下定論我說我會擔心這個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10452.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10469.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那我今天這個炸藥 要嘛會不會是不穩定所以我們的子弟兵我們的軍人拿到會不會容易有危險這第一個 第二個他會不會有不急發的問題那他在面對敵人的時候如果無法急發 無法完成任務這也是風險嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10470.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10498.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以如果今天這個東西他這麼低價搶下來會不會有偷工減料 會不會有劣質炸藥要嘛不穩定 要嘛過於穩定無法激發這都是我們擔心的這也都會影響到國家的安全那我想 你們講到這個國內無產能但是總是跟你們公告的東西產地要中華民國不一樣那我們念法律就是看資料我一資料一看我也搞不懂為什麼你們講的跟原產地國別這個差距這麼遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10501.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10507.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這個真的很奇怪所以我想說這個會不會是代表說這個公告只是刑事就國防部那一定要給誰就給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10509.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10532.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那個公告的欄位是因為在絕標公告的時候我們沒有先讓他們提供產地來源等到後來得標商提供產地的證明資料以後我們就會偵證絕標的公告關於有關產地的資訊第三個公司的財力證明在哪裡我想我們必須要知道這個要跟各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10534.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10550.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
民進黨執政九年 國防預算翻三倍我當然是全力支持國防我一定支持我們要保衛我們的國土我們要對抗任何一個外來的政權或任何一個國家我們都要與你對抗我也絕對挺警察軍人 消防這些人我絕對挺到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10551.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10571.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是我們特別 光預算漲三倍特別預算1.5兆就讓財力不足沒有交易經驗的公司去跨進來去能夠吃到甚至有人講說15億的開口合約這時候我們就會想說到底這個錢是拿來強化戰力還是餵養特定的廠商這是我們一直在擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10572.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10594.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那剛剛部長確實有提到本案設定有違約金那其實我們看到我們跟美國買F16V幾千億捧去了沒有飛機沒有違約金錢在美國升利息那今天好不容易國內的廠商我們可以罰了卻找了一家資本額只有1900萬的公司一旦違約以他的資本額連5%你們訂的5%他都賠不起他5%已經繳了嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10599.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10628.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
很多都是貸款的啦他5%的違約金已經繳在我們手上無法可罰但是呢 部長你剛講的很威啦就有違約金 有解約 有求償每一句話都有印但是我擔心的還是那個點第一個 小事情是罰不到這個是小事喔 小到不能再小事第二個 軍火拿不到這是我擔心的我們開這個表案是為了國防 為了保家衛國而不是為了他做不到以後我們再來跟他司法訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10630.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10649.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我還是一樣支持國軍支持到底但我不想讓我們國人的血汗錢送到特定空殼廠商的口袋裡面那我也呼籲說國軍的弟兄姊妹只要看到這種類似的案子有任何懷疑都一定要勇敢站出來因為這不是扯國家後腿不是扯國軍後腿這在保護自己的生命那我跟部長報告我剛剛所提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10650.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10665.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
部長 實國家奉陸因中國家之事實國家奉陸因中國家之事我做過24年的公務員我很清楚這個道理我們對國家都有忠誠義務我也相信你也很清楚這一點所以我們好不好我們把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10667.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10689.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我們搞清楚是怎麼回事那請國防部能夠站在一個協助大家釐清問題的那個角度而不是護航的角度我們把東西弄清楚讓國人知道國防部真的是認認真真在做採購我想大家會對於國防部將來的各項採購或特別預算會更加的信任更加的支持好不好我們一起做到這件事情謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10690.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10695.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
委員看起來都是只是在自己做自己的發言的內容部長你每次都講這話我跟你講部長你每次都在講這話你要嘛說你講的都不是事實你這個沒根據但是不是事實在哪裡沒有根據在哪裡你也不講啦我剛講的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10706.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10728.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我剛剛講的東西 請問哪一個錯他履約 他只有1900萬的資本額 哪裡錯你們違約金5%是到2000多萬 哪裡錯那我要求的說 採購重點是國防拿得到的東西賠錢是小事 這哪裡錯 我都不知道這到底錯在哪裡 採購法的重點是你一直在講履約保證金 那我一直在重複 履約保證已經繳了 你有聽進去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10732.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10744.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
只要了也不足以顧及我們國家的安全謝謝我們等一下謝榮介委員質詢完畢我們休息5分鐘現在請賴世保委員上台質詢謝謝主席及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10766.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10787.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
部長你好我最近這一段時間很少看到你這麼生氣你從上個禮拜一直生氣到現在到底是怎麼樣是戳到你哪個痛腳你怎麼早上一來這裡面對媒體的生氣在這裡現在生氣到底生氣是為什麼你講一個問題為什麼這麼生氣各位委員報告我想我對每一件事情都只是據理例證而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10795.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10811.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
你以為我很生氣喔好幾個人就問我為什麼顧部長這麼生氣原來很有修養的 變成沒有修養來 我們來看喔外界質疑的是什麼外界質疑的就是他的資本額1900萬為什麼可以拿到這麼大的表 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10816.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10832.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
剛才已經有很多委員講了我就不重複了外界質疑的是這個那你就一直在回答一個事情說旅約保證5%交了押標金交了是不是這兩個都交了還是只有交一個先交押標金 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10834.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10853.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
先加投標押標金然後絕標之後就是押標金我還回然後就他履約保證金所以等於3%加5% 8%前面先收3%對完成程序之後絕標之後還回他3%再加5%再收5%那現在在你手上到底多少幾%了 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10855.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10860.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那是多少錢的5%是5.9億的5%還是原來8點幾億的5%預算金額8.2億的5%所以是4千多萬在你手上那部長啊 你在乎不在乎他這個錢是借來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10870.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10891.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
拿到你這個合約 拿到的去融資剛才委員提到的 你在乎不在乎還是You don't care我只要他錢給我就好了 我不care是這樣子嗎我在乎的是透過我們這樣的公開招標的程序能夠如期如值的執行完這個合約讓我們能夠拿到我們所需要的火藥原物料 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10892.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10899.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那麼履約保證金沒收跟解約然後還有辦理停權是拿來我們控管他在招標之前他就要思考他有沒有這樣子的履約能力的一個控管的機制下一個檢核點是什麼時候下一個檢核點就是他要在決標次日取得180個日曆天列取得外國政府或授權機構核發的輸出許可證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10921.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10939.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
就是絕標日期180 絕標是什麼時候12月8號絕標所以大概半年左右 就明年度的6月左右是不是這個意思 是 看他能不能取得如果不能取得咧如果不能夠取得 我們就可以要檢討要不要解除合約怎麼會這麼客氣 就解除啦 不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10947.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10956.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們如果委員的這個意思是如此我們也確定他不能取得輸出許可的證明我們就會採取這樣的手段那委員金呢沒收啊就是旅業保證沒收就對了啦對啊沒收四千多萬啦我為什麼特別提這個因為前面幾位委員已經有提到了就是大家會擔心的像我們的風力發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10977.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10986.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
政府給合約保證收購電而且電價很高他拿這個合約去貸款通通拿銀行的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10988.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11012.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個到底的買空賣空啊到底的買空賣空我們怕這個事情也歷史重演那個風電一樣所以這個大家就會比較說那這個不是跟這個小吃店做快篩的生意超市雞蛋進口幾乎如出於策啊就變這個樣子外界擔心的是這個而且你剛剛講說他有營業項目這去年才加進來的啊你 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11014.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11039.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
不讓外界有這樣的質疑都很困難因為去年才這樣子我請教部長胡邁公司應該不是去年才加進來的營業項目去年才加進來的不是不是 他原來就是從事國際貿易沒有 化學品 化學用料的化學原料去年加進來的我們的資格就是他能夠從事國際貿易化學原料不用在乎我們歷來過去20年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11043.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11069.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
20年來所有火藥原物料的資格都只要具有國際貿易的業務項目可是他沒有做過火藥的生意喔過去沒有因為我們這是內購外賣嘛那這個他只要有一個國際貿易業的代理商的資格就可以啦這個部長 其實其實 我就問你一件很直白的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11070.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11085.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們立委踢爆這件事情之前請問你知不知道這個事情我對相關的個案每一個個案我沒有去介入所以你都不知道當然是事件爆發出來之後我才了解這個整個案件的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11086.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11095.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
以你大律師的背景你沒有看一下這個這個案子沒有任何可以你監討的地方嗎你不會覺得它資本額太小嗎不會這樣覺得嗎我們檢視的結果就是已經一再的跟委員說明就是在於說我們開放這個參與投標但是我們會做嚴格的履歷監督嘛這個就是一個核心的一個我們國防部的立場對於這樣子的一個開放參與投標然後核心監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11116.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11144.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個履約然後對於履約的這個部分他會招致這個相關的這些被沒收被解約被停權的後果他在參標之前他就會做衡量他一定覺得他一定會去思考他有沒有履約能力那剛剛委員也指教的很好就是說第一個管制點在什麼時候第一個管制點就是在於決標的自治體的一定的日期內他要取得外國政府的一個輸出區域證明他如果拿不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11144.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11147.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
他就會面臨你有沒有側面了解他能不能讓他知道我現在沒有辦法去評估這樣子的一個狀況你總是要了解現在新聞報這麼大了你總是要去了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11157.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11164.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們現在相關的作為就是我們在採購前辦理這個商員的徵詢然後之後我們辦理公開招標讓所有可能能力的人都進來投標你跟民企了解一下他的資本有1000多萬他怎麼有錢拿4000多萬給你交旅遊保證金借來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11178.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11192.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我要拿到的是旅業保證金的現金我並不需要去管這一個他的你不會在乎嗎你不在乎老百姓在乎喔我們的控管的所要就是旅業保證金的沒收啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11193.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11218.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
不是 他就是拿你的因為拿到你的合約拿去貸款的所以這一點大家在意這一點你怎麼會說你一個大律師怎麼會國際貿易在從事相關的業務我想過去幾十年很多我們的這些中小企業也好或者我們從事國際貿易的這些奮鬥的過程當中我想他如何運用他的資金這本來就是他成功歷史裡面的一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11219.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11228.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我認為我們不需要去非議這樣的一個手段重點就在於他必須要繳交旅業保證金而我們的手段非常簡單看到貨品質合格我們才會付款我們沒有任何的風險在這個之前但是他要受到很大的風險他沒有辦法旅業他旅業保證金會被沒收他會被停權 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11245.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11259.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
外界的質疑就是這事先都講好了才去去年把這個原料化學原料把它加進來的然後都是都講好了才去做這個事情為什麼只有一家飆請問它是不是限制性招飆 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11261.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11289.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
跟委員報告啊你如果看我們提出來的過去這個五年內相關的這些表案很多都是一家出來投票因為他都是有把握去拿到這些證明他才會進來投票這個就是火藥原物料的一個採購的一個特色所以你是替他背書的啦我沒有要替他背書我也不知道他是不能最後拿到輸出去的證明尤其特別在經過這一段風波之後但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11290.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11309.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
他能夠來投標他當然就要先思考我另外問一個問題美國國會研究處在12月11號報告IF12735這裡面特別提到了台灣如果因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11310.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11335.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
就是說美國對他的盟國對他的朋友們如果遭受到攻擊的話他可能會動用核武去幫忙那麼簡單來講就是兩岸開戰雖然台灣跟美國沒有這個要台美的什麼相互互相協防跳躍什麼之類的美國延伸嚇阻跟區域核能力就是他會動用核武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11337.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11359.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
來的話我們台灣有沒有承受核戰場的能力我們最大的這個努力就是我們做好我們的備戰基礎我們來避戰然後這個台海的和平穩定的現狀能夠維持沒有沒有沒有 你沒有回答問題我問你核戰場萬一如果美國要出動這個了台灣會牽連嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11361.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11369.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我相信如果有任何發生核子武器的動用對全世界都會是一個災難不是只有對台灣謝謝接下來請謝龍介委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11394.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11406.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
主席我先 保證你先喝茶講一下廢話我先請中科院請中科院 李院長議長 我說好樂威跟我有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11424.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11425.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
今年3月這個標案是第三次開標 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11444.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11457.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
第三次對 第三次開票才投票所以第一次跟第二次這一家公司有沒有來投票都沒有對不對為什麼第三次是誰去找他出來的來信通話 整個啊這在我們台南是全新的第一次 第二次他都沒有來投票啊第三次是誰抱他出來吃這個好吃的 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11472.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11474.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這就是問題啊委員因為是公開招標啦 我知道公開招標嘛你說過去第一屆第二屆流標 第三屆就是一間就可以了這個時候 心必靈的出來啊所以最後就絕標啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11493.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11521.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你知不知道他同期時 三月你們割標的時候他是在去年12月30日做變更的你知不知道這個事情國民重點就是他具備了參標人士對啦 我知道他具備啦 他具備的是12月30日才具備嘛我再跟你講好啦 我請補充來所以中科院你就是第一次 第二次 他都沒來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11522.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11526.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他三次要割皮的順序就出現了啦你只割他一斤而已啦不對 剛才那個軍備局 軍備局你說有5%的保證金我請教你喔 這個軍備局5%的保證金 中科院你可以回去 請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11547.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11560.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這5%是用什麼資料 現金?還是支票?還是定存檔?是 都 包委員都可以現金 即時支票他一次是用這支的支票就對了 是的 是的我們要這5%要做什麼?你看 豹趴出來賣蛋拿5%跟木修5%要怎樣?保證有人在應援喔 不要那麼生氣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11575.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11594.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我知道你是站在法律上的角度 我們有保護這個標案跟木修對於來說普通不一樣甚至還有醫館在這裡說什麼本來做玩具也可以做無人機啊可以啊 我以前就是玩具生產啊我做玩具做20幾年了我本來也可以做槍啊後來內政部來取締啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11603.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11607.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我也可以做無人機啊遙控驅動的我都可以做啊但是過程有一個研發啊不會說瞬間一夜之間我就變得動作人家想投入研發三年四年五年不等嘛陶瓷也一樣啊那精密陶瓷我也是投入研發啊才有新品出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11630.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11637.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
做漁船的當然也可以做雷箭啊 那就別空啊 慶富就這樣來的嘛 國家僚兩百幾個啊你不能說他只要有資格就可以嘛這間啦 暗沒目啦12月30號變更的時候 我聽到了啦 我現在跟你講為什麼會是他 因為有人看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11659.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11662.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這個採購本來就是一個很封閉啊我們比較過去你們採購的農務當然有人說要打破壟斷嘛 很好啊打破壟斷那就是弄一個新的壟斷啊為什麼是他 為什麼不是我啊來報的資料農中有的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11686.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11705.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
包括去巴西買芥農的藝術是什麼你知道嗎 超市不要去過巴西巴西有人替他拆工好了 有人替他整廢棍 有人把他送進來你不要到台灣了喔 這個雞蛋應該給哪一家廠商幫他去化超市連洗蛋的工廠都沒有那最後去化以後還直接流到通路 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11711.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11718.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這件就是要奉祭 是不是這樣 我跟你講他沒有這個領略上勝算 也沒有這個領略上進回那當然 人家就懷疑啊 是不是國安部 有人介入 官員有介入民意代表有介入 他是怎樣是民意代表給聽的 還是官員報他好康的 還是莫迪是他們表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11743.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11746.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
莫迪你聽不懂 印度總理啊印度總理是他們表現 怎麼可以拿這個表現轉型 企業轉型是好事 但轉型不會是一夕之間你能進入軍工科技這個產業他這是標準的有問題 我在這裡替賴清德總統澄清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11770.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11778.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
經過分析台南的調查賴總統跟他們不認識他不是賴友友但他是立友友賴總統跟他不認識啦而且當時借他的牌出來做台南市2014年到2016年那個小型工程的那個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11792.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11807.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
也不是他們本身 那是人家照擺出來做的所以我算在這裡替賴總統澄清各位不要誤會 賴清德跟他們不認識但是有民意代表要跟他認識啊為什麼會把整個標案弄好了這就是損風殺到窮啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11819.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11822.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
不給過去那個結構的那些廠家繼續做那為什麼挑了他那挑他以後本身在這正式跟部長檢舉跟這個公司接觸的有一個退役的金人這是前天在地的人跟我講有退役的金人跟他們接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11846.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11861.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那到底這個退役的軍人是代表國安部還是代表民意代表去跟他周旋周旋好了以後促成這個標案這是我要注意的當然我們採購有很多困難啊對不對所以要保證採購的進來你不知道印度部長你了不了解俄羅斯在賣原油的時候印度大買特買然後轉賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11875.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11895.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
有這個事嗎這兩三年了 二五戰爭的過程印度買了俄羅斯很多原油就直接轉賣了 賺了大筆的錢那你怎麼會知道這個原物料呢印度不是向中國大陸買的 然後轉賣給我們我們要怎麼防篤 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11901.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11924.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們會取得原產的 原產就變成是印度出來 習產地啊但是你沒辦法追查 你也沒有能力追查 坦白講國安部包括民意大包括各方面很難去追查到這一點那我們要怎麼去防度 要他提出什麼樣的切捷我們這個原產製造證明文件是要經過產地法院或公證人公證 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11925.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11952.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那當然他會取得嘛我的意思說他會取得就像這個印度從俄羅斯買來的原油轉賣一樣他也可以取得但是這個原物料實質上是來自中國大陸那我們怎麼辦我們就資助了紅色產業鏈啦我們會要求軍備局會同這個廠商辦理文件查驗我們必要的事也會實施反向查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11954.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11964.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
返鄉查證那要不要到產地去查證有沒有這個機制 合約裡面有沒有寫如果有必要的話我們會請駐外單位這個很嚴肅啦 部長我覺得這個我們必須要落實啦能不能 因為以他能夠得標那表示現在印度是有貨可以看啦是不是 君佩琪是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11982.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11999.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
印度現在應該是有現貨可以看或是有生產線可以看那我們能不能請廠商提供我們先去看一下我想我們這個部分等廠商提出輸出許可證明之後我們會來進行相關的這個旅業監督的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12001.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12019.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那提出以後部長我們什麼時候可不可以在他提出來以後我們在兩個月以內我們國安委員會請主席我們組成一個考察團我們到印度的廠地工廠去看一下實際了解可以嗎主席可以嗎我認為這個相關重要因為這可能會資助到紅色產業鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12032.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12051.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
本席有高度的情報來源這些東西很可能是從中國大陸轉過來的還有就是國防部退役這個軍官我私底下會跟那個廉政今天調查局沒有來我會跟廉政署講這個軍官是哪一個軍種跟這個李先生他們接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12057.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12073.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那目前情報來源是說有交情但是是有人代表民意代表去接觸他然後還刻意帶風向說他是賴友友你對老青帝這樣汙衊我是看不下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12075.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12093.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以這裡今天兩個澄清第一個他不是賴友友第二個我們要採購的原物料很可能就是來自中國大陸然後轉到這邊來所以本席才會要求拿到這個證明以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12095.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12122.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那印度的法院如果願意認證那建勤主席我們應該做一個實地因為這種採購不會一次就結束既然我們要擴大國防採購跟擴大軍備儲蓄那可能後續還會有更大的採購量一定要小心謹慎部長你認不認同我們會落實我們的旅業的監督機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12123.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12142.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那監督機制你贊不贊成我們組團到印度去實地考察委員的這個行程我想不是我們國防部可以置會的那國防部到時候要派誰一舉來我們剛剛已經講了我們必要會請駐外的單位來做一個查問沒有 我們要有國防部軍備局陪同啊因為你們是專業的 你們要提供專業諮詢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12151.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12178.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
否則我們這只是只有委員去也沒有用啊隨便就被糊弄啊那國安部能夠 軍備局能派潛人員嗎可以嗎可以嗎我想委員如果要去任何地方我們要不要陪同這件事情我們國安部要在另外在慎做要慎重怕踩到紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12181.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12204.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
還是印度當局會拒絕我想委員這個事項現在都還沒有成正所以這個標案不一定會成不是我說委員剛剛說您要組團的這件事情還沒有成正委員會主席已經答應了我不知道就是你取得他的保證廠商的禮約跟認證以後我們要去實地勘查表示我們對軍事採購的慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12213.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12224.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
只要委員會成行那軍備局是不是應該要派員隨同啊委員要做好委員相關的監督的作為我們都表示尊重那委員會主席如果我們成團軍備局應該要派人你不能答應嗎我沒有辦法現在對還沒有成團的事情我表示任何意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12242.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12249.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
沒關係 我會再來請教謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12581.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12585.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
請各位就位我們等一下我們要繼續開會了我們現在繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請部長還有軍備局局長請顧部長軍備局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12615.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12626.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好 部長局長好我先請教局長請問一下過去RDX是不是都是軍備局自行對外進口的 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12627.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12657.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
跟委員報告RDS都是我們進口原料由我們軍備局205廠自行產製提煉成RDS所以都自行進口那這次為什麼要不是進口原料RDS的原料RDX原料RDX的原料是一個化學品是一個化學品叫做烏洛托瓶對RDS由軍備局來生產那請問一下這次為什麼要由廠商民間廠商來進口呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12658.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12659.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
因為要為各軍種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12662.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12666.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
不對稱作戰的裝備的需求要擴充產能的關係對 要擴充產能我就採自製跟外購170噸來因應所以今年開始過去都沒有對外採購過第一次第一次採購第一次採購RDX對 RDX那顯然就出現了這樣的一個量身訂做來 那我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12689.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12697.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 我請問一下部長今天你回答媒體的時候你非常不耐煩因為連續爆發的這幾個案件都出現了非常低的資本額但是他們的得標金額都很高那一個就是這個福邁它是1900萬它的得標金額是5.9億另外大石國際資本額3500萬它的得標金額是2億4900萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12718.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12730.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
然後另外一個呢是我今天特別提出的他的得標金額不高但是他的資本額只有少少的10萬元所以部長你認為資本額的高低不重要不在你們國防採購裡面的考慮範圍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12738.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12750.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
有關於火藥原物料也就是屬於內購外賣也就是屬於代理的部分我們都是過去20年來都採公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都是一致的在你們的報告裡面你們說其實你們的標準我看起來極低第一個只要是合法登記的第二個營業項目有國際貿易業還有你有納稅證明三項資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12766.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12770.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那我先補充一下 剛才你一直強調福邁是過去都有國際貿易業錯 它是去年才新登記國際貿易業它的另外的關西企業 這個賣馬桶的 衛浴設備的它才有國際貿易業 但是來標的是福邁好 那我要問的是 資本額難道不重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12790.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12793.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
資本額難道不重要嗎如果今天你的門檻這麼低難道沒有國安疑慮嗎我們現在看到的這些標案在裡面你們都講說這是有國安相關的機敏的標案但是你們都把資本額不重要部長說我沒有辦法去管他的資本額啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12814.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12816.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
請問一下這沒有國安疑慮嗎有心人士想要來標國防部的標案非常容易啊不知道你知道在國內國內登記有案從事國際貿易業的廠商有多少家嗎你知道嗎跟委員報告我們查到最早譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12835.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12850.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
過去從100年以來到現在38個標案包括了V炸藥等等的這些所謂的火藥的原物料等等我們所有都採公開招標廠商的資格都是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12851.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12857.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那沒有問題都沒有問題過去我要講的比如說中科院有一些標案因為我時間有限這個要素這個要素會有國安疑慮我剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12867.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12892.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
在國內登記為國際貿易業的高達32萬家但是他真正有規模在從事國際貿易業的只有1100家那你剛剛講的福邁我可以告訴你他從110年到113年不知道你知道嗎他進口的金額是多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12894.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12921.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我想我們零一毛錢都沒有長期他沒有進口任何一個品項只有在今年他開始在標案子標中科院標國防部的案子才出現進口金額所以這個不奇怪嗎這個社會不會質疑嗎然後部長你是法律人喔你是法律人法律人我們就來看法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12923.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12939.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我們工程會本來就有採購法我們也有相關的一些執法對於政府機關投票廠商的資格特別是那種特殊的還有巨額採購本來就有認定標準啊你們國防部是話外之明嗎來 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12944.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12962.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
投標廠商資格與特殊或巨額採購的認定標準它起碼要有幾項第一個它必須具有相當的經驗或實績者這個很重要嘛你對於一些這種特殊規格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12964.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12974.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
巨額採購的 你都不要管他 他以前有沒有做過我剛才講 這家公司110年到113年 就是今年之前他的進口金額是零啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12976.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12981.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
然後你可以讓他標一個5.9億的案子還覺得OK沒問題啊合法啊好來再來具有相當人力者人很重要嘛他有相關的專業的人力嗎或者還有相關的配備我可以告訴你啊你去查這家福邁公司到今年在爭人才還在招募人力啊他招募什麼人力啊他招募的還是室內裝修的人力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13005.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13014.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
最近不是在講說馬總統時代也有什麼合成衛育也有標國防工程啊合成衛育資本額是多少30億結束30億而且人家有實驗室有實驗室你拿這個這是什麼呀這是一隻老母雞比那個雞爪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13034.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13052.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這種比喻 再來 具有相當財力者這個很重要囉 具有相當財力者他特別講 他包括失收資本額不能低於招標預算金額的十分之一那當然後面還有 你有什麼會計年度要有什麼樣什麼樣的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13054.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13073.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好啦 我要問的是如果今天我們政府機關針對這些重要的標案還有這些特殊的標案 有國安資格 國安疑慮的標案都有這樣的一個限制 這限制是基本的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13075.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13098.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
這不是最基本的標準嗎你要有時機 我相信你有這個經驗第二個你要有一定的人力我們在講不管RDX HMX它都是 它是化學品 疫爆品最近不是萬海航運在印度萬海就爆炸啊到現在還在印度萬海沒辦法開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13101.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13109.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
包含你航運的安排交通的安排 還有我請問你啊請問他把這個一進口是直接送到你軍備局是吧他不需要有倉儲是吧他直接就送到你軍備局所以你們不要那麼扯嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13117.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13134.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
部長你是法律人這個都是工程會的規定工程會這樣規定你國防部不需要你給我訂一個什麼只要你是有合法登記的啦只要你是什麼有國際貿易的啦只要你有納稅證明你這麼低我告訴你啊還在辦什麼反滲透法有心人士隨便找一家美容美髮業找一家快炒業現在很多都在搞國際貿易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13147.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13155.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
就可以來標你國防的功臣標你國防機敏的功臣標你國安的功臣你不會被滲透嗎你不會被滲透嗎你們這種標準還好意思拿出來國防部的標準那個主席給我一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13169.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13175.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
委員我可以回答一下問題我請你回去檢討啦不要每次一講就說我們認知作戰你國防部的標案我們不能夠去檢討嗎不能去監督嗎委員不讓我有回答的機會我想這不是一般的詢答方式吧這怎麼不是一般的詢答方式好你講啊請問一下你憑什麼國防的標案它的標準可以這麼低而工程會的標準都寫在那裡給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13198.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13219.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
跟委員報告第一個就是說這是一個進口的現貨供應那麼進口的現貨供應呢他具有國際貿易的一個代理的資格那對這個合約的控制的手段就在於他必須要取得輸出許可證明這個輸出許可證明遠比你的資本額 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13220.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13237.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
原理比你的過去的時機都要來的重要因為不論你過去有多少時機不論你資本有多少你沒有辦法拿到輸出許可證明一翻兩瞪眼他沒有辦法履約有拿許可證明就代表他一定有能力嗎有拿到輸出許可證明才可以往下走廣大的人幫他拿到許可證明才可以往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13242.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13251.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那他所以他在投標的時候他就必須要思考他有辦法拿得到輸出許可證明嗎他如果拿不到輸出許可證明他敢來投標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13255.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13272.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
他就算投標 我跟你講嘛 我剛才講萬海航運已經有一個在印度外海爆炸的萬海長榮這些陽明海運他們不是不能夠運輸但是他的非常嚴格 尤其 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13272.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13274.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
剛剛發生所以我要講的第二點就是原廠的製造原廠的製造證明他就要跟這個代理商講好他們要原廠要用專傳然後來運輸然後來抵台 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13288.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13302.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
他還沒有交易底台之前所有的風險都是由他負擔並不是由我們負擔過去從來沒有做任何進出口過去從來沒有做過任何的軍火然後他到國外說我要進口你們的這個RDX然後他就順利可以取得他的這個輸入特許許可證明你覺得怪不怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13312.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13328.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
他只要拿得到你覺得奇不奇怪這麼神奇的事情在台灣台灣好多奇蹟所有的國際貿易從事國際貿易業者都有這個可能性對33萬家我告訴你啊你如果委員可以去看看我們過去20年來時間暫停所做的火藥的原物料的購案海軍司令部參謀長能夠得標的這個廠商都是從事國際貿易業者你不要再跟我蟲扯了我剛剛就跟你講這件事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13342.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13348.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
因為時間的關係 海君等一下簡要回答我只有一件事情 我的要求海昆號 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13352.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13372.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
海昆號現在這次媒體爆料我也相信應該是跟海昆號他在海撤的時候有參與的人應該去爆料爆料的意思就是說我們在經過海撤的時候出現了故障最後都要用人力操舵說要人力操舵才逃出來就易壓故障 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13375.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13399.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
結果媒體去求證台船台船最後告訴大家為了保密跟加緊完成測試以後將不再逐一回應請問一下可以這樣子嗎人命關天的事情這是納稅人這麼多錢的事情台船可以講說我以後不再逐一回應是怎麼樣 要保密三十年嗎可以這樣嗎我想先請問跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13404.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13429.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那因為的確最近有幾起的這個新聞的這個披露那對整個台船跟整個專業團隊的士氣那影響很大那我想台船也在短時間都說了一個非常 比較確確的一個說明那台船現在目前應該是要加強不是 未來這種可能危及到這個相關安全的問題 人民安全的問題他可以說不再回應嗎 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13430.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13436.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我只問你可以或不可以我問你們國防部有沒有授權台船可以這樣所以是你授意的所以國防部授意我要求不可以這樣黑箱作業不可以針對這麼重大的這樣的一個有故障而且可能造成人命安全的問題不可以說我從此以後我不再回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13461.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13479.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
這樣是黑箱座也好 部長一句話來我們可以公開的部分我們一定會對外來公開說明對應該守密的事項也會進行守密像這種事情有或沒有要跟外面報告嗎要怎麼改進不能說我從此以後都不再說明好謝謝接下來請黃國昌委員黃國昌黃國昌委員不在請謝一鳳委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13498.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13505.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
好謝謝主席我想要請部長請顧部長還有陸情指揮部參謀長還有陸軍司令部參謀長陸情部還有陸軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13519.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13542.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我今天要就教於你是因為在彰化縣有就是炮兵指揮部那你知道在12月4號的時候發生了意外在就是演練的時候觸及到了民宅那好險是未爆彈因為轉速不夠所以彈藥沒有爆炸 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13543.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13554.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
如果今天彈藥爆炸的時候我相信會影響的就是整個整體我們相關的居民 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13555.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13579.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以我現在就要就教於陸軍後勤指揮部到底這個彈藥是不是過期那未來我們是不是在這個受訓的時候都要用新的彈藥才不會造成像今天這樣子訓練時候所造成的相關的危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13581.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13593.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
報告委員我是陸金昕常務長就這個案子就我的掌握向您報告有關於這個當天的這個炮彈射擊事實上這一發禁彈它並不是裝備問題也不是彈藥問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13595.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13622.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
它是我們去探究比較有可能的成因是發射藥那事實上在其他的先前的射擊它的這個射擊距離也都是正常的那我們為了全面的去做更嚴謹的檢視我們把這一梯的發射藥我們先把它暫停來使用然後全面去做一個檢驗要確定它的質量還有它的這個整個發射的能量都是達到正常我們才會再去使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13622.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13643.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
不是我現在今天的問題是如果現在你們訓練的時候用的你知道還是很久以前的這個彈藥的時候那對於不管是發射藥還是裡面的彈藥也好那對於這個周邊的居民所產生的這樣子影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13645.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13658.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
既然你們都要採購東西了那是不是應該用在就是說我們在訓練的時候對於他訓練所採用的這相關的彈藥是不是能夠用新購的 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13659.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13675.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
报告委员是的我们在先前也类似的训练这样的案例当中我们也是从最老旧的包含到弹药跟药包我们先去检讨我们的存量是否足够我知道那我们从老旧的优先去汰除 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13677.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13698.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
然後再去檢討哪些年份的可以去做整修這影響到居民的安全我們一切都會以官兵跟居民的安全為重我們總不能夠在訓練的時候就已經先打到自己那如果是這樣子的情況下是不是能夠請你們優先來使用新的彈藥在這個訓練的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13701.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13725.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我們是有朝這方面在檢討你們是不是應該就整體居民的安全你們應該要優先來用新採購的彈藥是不是我們會選擇安全性足夠的彈藥來不敢跟委員保證說一定是用最新的彈藥但是在安全性因為包含到我們陣地操作的官兵的安全居民的安全都是我們要優先重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13725.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13745.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
是啊 對 可是你們現在就發生在你們就是訓練的時候就發生這樣子的危險 是不是今天波及了三個民宅還好是未爆的那如果今天是爆炸了是不是那就這個問題我第二點就交於你 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13746.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13766.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那就對於這個炮兵指揮部的這個周邊的地區也有相關的居民的牧林的這樣子的經費是不是那是不是給予檢討並且予以提高因為就你們現在演練的結果產生了這樣子的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13766.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13781.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那是不是對於安撫周邊居民以及減少相關的這個道路的問題那是不是提高所有的就是說周邊的這個木林經費的相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13781.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13800.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
花文我就兩點向您報告第一點有關於這三戶受到波及的民宅我們已經在11月11號10號跟11號已經跟百姓完成一個賠償我知道了那也簽了和解但是募領經費的部分我向您報告因為目前我們在這個訓場周邊這個包含到北斗田中西州的三個訓場目前都是我們募領經費的最高的級數是1000萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13811.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13836.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那它因為超過涉及天數還有飛躍到百姓的這個涉及線我們所謂的泡沫線是有穿越民宅這個都有加成那這個以西州來說它都已經加成到1380萬元那是有如您委員所指導的它是在最高上限之外還有額外結合地區涉及任務的特性有加成的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13836.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13852.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
好那個參謀長我必須要跟你說就是現在的這個我們的台灣就是地下人籌的一個地方那你們就是所有的訓練場都離民宅非常近 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13853.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13867.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
你去看那個你有去看過吧你有去看過那都離民宅非常近所以當你即便是我們很快跟民宅做成了達成了和解但是未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13868.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13886.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
要協助就是這些居民可以能夠安全的能夠信任國防部嗎是不是信任你們陸軍嗎可以在那裡繼續的做演練嗎那如果這樣情況下要求你提高這個就是相關的木林應該沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13887.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13910.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
這個有關木林的經費我們會就全全國的三軍的相關的這個火炮射擊的訓拔場我們會來做一個全面性的通盤依照民意的實際的現況來做一個特別的注意相關的好不好相關的這個民眾的感受以及居民的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13910.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13935.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
可不可以我想居民的安全是最重要的我們會在因為這個事件我有請陸軍司令部來做檢討有關整個相關訓練的這個一些事項包括公告還有包括攝像還有包括剛剛您提到的這些種種我們都會請陸軍司令部來做一個檢討務必讓居民安心好嗎是好謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13939.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13954.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
接下來請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請葉元之葉元之葉元之委員不在請林義軍委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13976.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13998.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
是 另外一位顧部長好部長 我想請問一下你覺得2027年兩岸會打仗嗎因為還是你認為賴總統和國防部只是為了找合理的編列向美國採購這些武器所以故意有現在恐嚇人民們再加上現在大家都有收到近期發布的全民國防手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13999.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14019.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
就是現在大家都是叫這個叫小橘酥啦所以心裡都非常的惶恐不安因為我為什麼今天要問這個問題呢是因為這個就是大家最近都在聊天的問題所以就是會聊到說有兩件事情一件事情就是說你們家有沒有收到小橘酥呢還有另外一件事情就是說2027年真的台灣真的就要打仗了嗎這樣所以連我的助理最近到百貨公司去 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14027.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14034.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
他都說奇怪那邊的櫃姐都跟他問說那到底是不是要打仗了這樣那我們要怎麼樣對人民做解釋呢所以像專櫃的櫃姐每一個人在聊天居然都在聊天這一個就是說圍繞的2027年兩岸會不會打仗這個議題那是真的是聽起來是真的非常諷刺啦所以我想說可不可以請部長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14050.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14072.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
國防部立場是這樣第一點我們希望在2027年拿到我們的高戰備能力這是我們的目標這是第一點第二點我們認為有準備更安全所以如果我們準備的當能夠產生一個實力那實力帶來嚇阻用嚇阻才能帶來和平這是我們國防部一貫的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14073.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14103.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
因為現在很多人都真的是有一點惶恐不安針對這個問題我想軍事的部分我們要努力的強化我們的裝備的獲得跟實戰化的訓練然後另外當然最重要就是有一個全社會防衛的韌性我想大家都有這樣子的一個危機的意識我們就能夠確保才能夠以實力帶來和平這樣子以實力帶來真正的和平是我們衷心所期盼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14104.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14132.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好 那部長其實剛才你所說的我覺得台灣的軍事的裝備確實是真的有投資的必要然後最近因為國軍的人才其實流失非常的嚴重而且導致主戰的部隊其實現在兵線比非常的低落再加上最近爆發的馬防部官兵集體租賬戶的給詐騙局管當人頭的這個事件涉案的整個官兵多達了60多個人然後兵線比不足缺的人數還沒有補滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14133.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14138.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
然後又一次的太楚少了60個前線的官兵這樣真的是雪上加霜先進的裝備需要由熟練的官兵來操作才能有效的嚇阻這整個然後本席是覺得說現在最主要是應該想盡整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14150.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14158.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
方法來招募還有留住更多的優秀的國軍人才才不會讓他們為了經濟而涉險所以國防部都準備要投入1.25兆的特別預算來採購大量的軍事裝備了那為什麼到現在還不願意依法編列預算替軍人加薪呢為國軍留住人才呢我想國防部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14175.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14194.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我們已經一再的說明我們對於提高國軍的待遇都是非常的重視但我們比較希望就是說能夠整體的來規劃這個整個國軍的待遇然後來強化我們現在認為邊線比比較低的部隊那我上個禮應該是上上個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14195.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14222.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我也有提到我們會來檢討戰鬥部隊的定義那如果能夠擴大戰鬥部隊的定義的話整體的規劃考量將戰鬥部隊的定義擴大到一個程度的話我覺得更能夠彰顯我們這些主戰部隊的辛苦那我們也更能夠從整體性的觀點來規劃國軍的待遇部長那我看這個可能要快一點努力一下囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14223.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14225.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
有 我們會跟 我們會來進行溝通好 接下來我想我們空軍現在有140架F16的戰機那是不是112年的時候就已經對外宣稱完成性能的提升了呢但是週一的時候發生了一架F16在飛行訓練的時候飛行員因為肌力的昏迷然後從2萬尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14247.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14255.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
一下子馬上下墜到六千尺還好是因為高度還夠所以飛行員也及時的清醒所以才避免了一個悲劇的發生但是這個事情的發生的時候我們才突然的發現原來我們的F16戰機居然沒有安裝自動防墜地系統這種救命的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14268.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14274.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那請問一下空軍當初112年對外宣稱的完成性能提升到底是提升了哪些性能否則怎麼都對外說升級而且已經全部完成了而且本來應該就要安裝的這些救命的裝置卻沒有安裝國防部要這樣怎麼才能保障這些國軍飛官的性命安全呢那請一下 請部長回答跟委員做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14298.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14305.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
整個就是block兩棟這140架飛機的性能提升是101年開始執行原先是到112年那後來因為一些彈藥的關係延到117年所以整個奉展專案就是性能提升的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14316.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14339.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
是在101年就開始執行那您剛剛提到這個防撞地系統我們在107年跟美軍做了討論在108年加入這一個項目那在109年才獲得徵付預算所以它不是一開始就有的這個裝備也是希望能夠提高我們戰機的安全係數所以在109年爭取預算之後我們就陸陸續續開始做一個構改 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14344.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14346.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那跟委員做簡單的一個報告那109年已經就已經就那時候就已經開始計畫了嘛那為什麼到現在都還沒有裝呢跟委員報告因為在美軍上面這個系統他要用數位的非控電腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14360.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14376.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
才能控制飛機的這些操作那我們的裝備是類比八個兩棟是類比式的電腦所以說在這個部分是花了比較多的時間還在做一個研發跟研改那目前已經初步完成它主要分成三個部分一個是基本的限速 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14377.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14404.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
一個是混合電腦就是剛剛講的我們要從類比式的電腦變成數位式的電腦那第三個是它的航電軟體的部分因為航電軟體也是非常多的系統正在研發所以它要找出一個節點能夠配合我們整個機隊的研發的時間來建構這個系統這三個要一起搭配才能陸陸續續完成我們整個性能這個Auto GKS就是防撞地系統的這個安裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14406.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14410.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
因為我還是要提醒一下部長因為我這樣看F16在109年還有111年的時候都已經發生這些事情了這樣的話像自動防墜地系統規劃那麼長的時期到現在還沒有是因為這一次發生了這件事情110年發生這些事情的時候我們才突然又討論到這一個問題所以我想應該這個要盡快的速度快點有這個裝備然後還有F16到底有哪些軟硬體還沒有生 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14436.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14458.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
幾完成的呢那除了AGM-154之外還有沒有一些裝備還沒有到貨的呢能不能一次的交代清楚呢您講的是指我們那個升級的這個部分嗎對那是不是而且跟委員報告我們整個在就是block兩棟這個部分就是您剛提到的AGM-154這個陸陸續續已經在提供後續的交貨集成 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14459.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14465.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這一個防撞地系統目前也在進行當中在整個全案117年這兩項東西原則上應該都會完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14468.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14487.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
所以我想說是不是請國防部在今天會議結束之後列出F16目前還沒有升級完成的軟硬體的整個清單還有F16AV型戰機的性能的提升還沒有完全交運的裝備提出一面書面報告給本會的全體的委員讓我們在未來審查預算的時候我們更清楚國防部編列預算的需求可以嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14495.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14498.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
接下來我再請教一下部長就是有關今天召委安排的這個RDS的原物料的採購的問題這個採購真的是非常的疑點重重希望國防部能夠向全國人民說清楚這樣講清楚到底這個有沒有弊案所以部長根據你們今天的書面報告內容指出當時國防部決定進口的理由是因為國內沒有產能對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14523.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14545.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
國內的廠商國內的廠商沒有對不對軍備局一直以來都有產能但是產能我們評估現在認為不足所以我們需要透過國內的廠商用內購外買的方式來取得所以這樣的意思就是說實際上國內就有產能了國內就是只有軍備局 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14547.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14562.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
對 國內本來就有產能 但是是因為軍備局最近的產能不足所以我們評估認為我們需要用到再有這個大量的一個需求所以我們要用這個採購的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14564.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14567.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
從外國來進口因為這一筆是將近6億的巨額採購這包含後面還有將近9億的開口合約等於是15億的標案這樣的開標的兩次竟然都是只有一家廠商投標而且這個投標的廠商自己不用有工廠也不用安檢合格存放危險品的特別的倉庫對這種高度危險的炸藥的採購案金額已經高達15億 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14591.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14597.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
是符合政府的採購對巨額採購的整個標準但國防部對投標的條件我覺得未免太寬鬆了吧既然讓這一家完全沒有經驗財力不足沒有設備沒有驗證文件而且沒有任何主管機關的認定的話這樣的居然一個裝修公司就可以得標那請部長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14614.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14641.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
跟委員報告因為這個要看標案的性質因為標案的性質是屬於向外採購一個原物料的現貨那它一定一運抵這個台灣之後呢就有我們的這個205廠進去押運然後我們這些205廠都是專業的人員所以這個貿易商他不會去接觸到這個相關的這些RDX那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14642.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14658.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
進來之前那麼他應該要去跟原廠去協調還用專船來運輸在運抵之前這個風險都是由他來承擔的所以他沒有需要要有一個什麼地方來囤儲囤儲的都是在我們惡靈無產的一個安全的管制地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14659.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14676.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這個要跟委員說明那我們也過去查了所有歷年辦理這個火藥原物料的相關的這些購案總共20年來總共38個案子也都是採這樣公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都一樣也就是都只要一個公司設立的證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14676.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14695.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
然後納稅的證明跟有從事國際貿易業那這些相關的這些的火藥都也是這些我們可以列舉出來包括V炸藥等等的還有這些班萊特船的火藥條等等大概資格都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14696.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14709.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
因為為什麼我今天會這樣講呢因為北溪發現國防部最近其實真的是不斷的出現了一些弊端有時候讓八竿子都打不著的廠商都跨行的得標像電腦公司可以賣防彈衣的抗彈纖維布還有賣衣材的公司也可以賣防彈衣的抗彈板 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14715.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14720.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
還有賣場的通路商也可以賣部隊的軍服所以我北溪還是強烈的建議部長趕快啟動內部調查如果有弊端就要立行法辦因為這個採購案牽涉到炸彈光是在運送的整個途中這個環境就可能會直接的影響到相關人員的人身的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14738.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14758.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
不能用我們國軍的官兵的生命來開玩笑所以希望部長可以務必趕緊的把疑點把它釐清清楚好 謝謝委員指教我想關於國內有自製產能的這個部分我們跟國外採購的部分我們要把它分清楚那國內自製產能的部分我們一定會有嚴格的要求這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14776.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14803.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
你好 我們請國防部部長請郭部長是 陳委員部長好我想部長今天有很多的委員大概都是有問同樣的議題但是我還是希望我們的同仁在質詢的時候不要用臆測來去代替證據不要用問題來去代替證據如果要有任何的指控需要以證據為導向 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14805.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14834.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那不然對於合法的按照招標這個合法招標的過程取得到這樣標案的這些廠商那我覺得不見得公平那如果覺得有任何弊端那理論上是要透過這個法律的系統你可以去提告那你也可以去做這樣相關的這些做法讓你懷疑的事情可以得到證實如果沒有的話純粹以臆測我覺得是對未來的國防產業工業不太公平但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14835.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14858.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我們這邊也是想要做一個風險控管的問題來請教部長因為我有注意到這一個從絕標次日到180個日曆日要取得外國政府或他授權合法的輸出許可證明那就可以大概是取得這樣子的做法那我認為我們擔心的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14858.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14875.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
就是我不在乎這些公司它的這個法律的這個過程怎麼走就是如果它沒有辦法履約的話那我們怎麼樣去懲罰它因為對我們來說這個就是走法律程序我們擔心的是這個戰備的時間跟空窗因為我們都知道2027是一個重要的節點 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14877.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14901.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那也就是說假設有一些相關的廠商他不符合這樣子的能力但是卻得到這樣的標案的話那最後我們國家是會懲治他可是在懲治之後我們還是沒有辦法得到合格或者是說符合我們要的品質的這樣不管是剛才提到的這種火藥原物料或者是其他的這些商品所以我擔心的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14902.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14921.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
萬一有一些企業或廠商他參與他同時他完全合法他得到了這個合法設立的登記證明還有得到營業項目的證明還有納稅證明但是他是為了急迫的要得到這個合約那他其實不完全具備這樣的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14922.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14934.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
他希望說在180天內他能夠盡量獲得這個能力但是他沒有辦法做自我的完整的評估最後還是沒有辦法繳獲的話對於我們戰備的這個會不會有空窗這個部分可不可以請部長簡單的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14935.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14962.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以跟委員報告與其在那個他的資本額跟他的一些公司名稱上面大家在那邊講來講去不如要講的就是合約如何控制風險以合約來控制風險那我們的控制風險講得很清楚他在參標的時候他就要拿出預算金額的3%那就表示說他要有把握他才會來參標他如果今天兩手空空 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14962.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14992.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
他怎麼來參標呢 對不對部長 完全同意我進一步的來談這件事情因為我擔心的是說假設他把這金額的3%或者是預算金額的5%當成是可以來干擾我國得到這些戰備能力的代價也就是說我們現在去做針對的考核是針對企業沒有針對人員來進行考核所以假設這一個企業是相對新設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14993.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15020.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
他有把這些相關的合法證明提供但是他背後的人員萬一他的目的不是要取得這個標案而是要干擾我國取得武獲的進程那這樣子怎麼辦所以我的意思是說我們過去的考核是不是主要是針對一個企業廠商我們未來有沒有可能考核是針對包含他的這些股權結構裡面的負責人或者是實際上這些人員的基本的安全考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15021.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15036.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
過去在我們其實這個安全考核這個東西我們很早就提到我們也知道說最近國防部也好或者相關的國安單位都有做一些相應的調整我覺得都是非常好的但是在廠商的這個部分在企業的部分我想美國它有很多外包的承包商 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15036.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15065.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
外部的承包商一樣他也需要經過安全核可他要經過機密考核等等他才有資格來去做這些事情那我擔心的是說會不會有一些企業那他的目的不是要取得標案而是要干擾我們五貨的建成這方面是不是我們多慮了部長可不可以簡單講我想委員的指教是很有道理的就是說我們現在就是區分兩種一種就是會涉及機敏的部分那我們就要對廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15065.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15094.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
做更多的這個查核那現在是這個部分是屬於現貨的那所以我們會就這個廠商啊他如果是大陸地區廠商他不能來投標所以他如果是第三地區含陸資成分的廠商他不能來投標他如果是在台的陸資廠商他也不能來投標因為他畢竟是一個現貨的東西所以委員擔心我沒有辦法完全排除但是他至少是一個是一個原料的現貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15095.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15109.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
所以重點第一個節點就是在於他絕標之日期他就要想辦法取得訴訴許可的證明好 謝謝部長主要啦 這一機密的部門我們已經在做這個相關的這些有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15110.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15125.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
金流的查核 人員的查核 治安的查核等等主要是金流跟人員因為我擔心的不是說他他後來的法律的後果因為他有些時候他是願意承擔這些法律後果也要干擾我國武獲的進程那特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15127.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15156.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
跟過去不太一樣過去20幾年剛才部長有提到有20多家20年有38個案件都是大概用同樣的方式但是這幾年中共的能力跟他的干擾我們情報或者是說干擾我們獲得武獲的能力也是非常大的在提高包含我們提到的這些潛艦他會去干擾我們這些獲得廠商能力的這些人所以我們必須要假設說未來他也有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15157.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15184.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
利用我們取得武器的進程來拖慢我們取得進程所以商源就很重要所以我剛才其實同意部長你講的這個我們商源要多不能說只有單一的那盡量來鼓勵這個更多的產業跟企業能夠投入這個國防這個事業它是可以把我們的商源是可以把它多元的分散那這樣子對我們的國防也比較有幫助因為我們不是產能不足我們過去是夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15184.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15188.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
但是未來要 剛才也提到的我們是為了要被 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15189.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15214.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
備戰的目的就是要阻止戰爭所以剛才部長有說我們的目的是在這個避戰其實避戰是交給外交部我們的目的是要備戰備戰是要交給國防部用外交部來去努力的去來避免來去阻止來去嚇阻來去加強我國各國的盟友我想這些都是有幫助的但是我還是要再次強調這幾個安全考核的部分以人為 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15215.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15242.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
因為現在可以很快速的再創新創一個企業等等但是背後的人員 人因人因的這個部分我覺得我們要來去思考一下再來就是剛才有部長有提到我們現在這些貿易相關的他說我們需不需要倉儲我們需不需要運送其實205廠就已經來去負責專業的運跟儲所以他們要負責的那一段我們講得很清楚他不必具備這些能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15243.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15267.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
有些能力是需要具備的它是要付出更多的這種投資跟代價有些不用嘛它是貿易商不是嗎所以這個東西我想也要藉這個機會跟民眾很清晰的來去解釋不是說因為它是這個名字所以它不能做哪件事情而是它要具備它最基本我們的要求重點是要如期如質的把這個東西拿到我們才能夠確保我們的軍備是夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15268.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15287.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我想這樣子跟民眾解釋的話他們可以更理解我們也沒有帶任何情緒我們就是很清晰的跟民眾來報告我們為什麼要做這些事情我們商園要擴大我們的產能必須要夠多商園也要更多樣化才能夠避免整個中共的各種方式來去阻攏 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15288.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15314.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
再來另外一個部分我想要提到一下商業衛星的部分跟軍事基地的影響最近我們看中國解放軍在海南島的基地它有美國的衛星影像中心現在叫做萬拓科技它是用高解析度的散力影像所以它就是結合了人工智慧的偵查能力就結合人工智慧跟衛星的偵查能力來去做統整 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15315.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15333.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那我們現在要思考的是說由於現在的科技它基本上它的每一代跟每一代的這種更換的速度它不是以數十年為單位甚至不是以數年就是每幾個月可能就會有新的能力出來那麼過去的五貨的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15334.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15359.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
包含美國也是一樣它都是非常繁雜可能會需要的速度沒有辦法來去因應它即將面臨的威脅所以想請教部長我們現在的DIU也好 DIO也好國防部主要的目的還是跟無人機相關的跟太空也有關 是不是是 我們對我們太空的能力的發展也非常的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15360.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15379.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以說這樣快速的這種能力的取得的話現在是以我們的DIU為主嗎我們不管是聯六或者是我們的聯二跟我們的整平思我們都有在這方面的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15380.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15405.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我的意思是說有些時候國防部扮演的角色跟民間衛星公司扮演的角色不太一樣有些東西是由我方掌握到的情報跟資訊由我方來去主動來去分享給民間跟民間掌握到的資訊讓民間主動去分享給相關的智庫跟或對軍事有影響力的人它的強度是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15406.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15425.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
所以包含國防部也好比如說不適合我們講的其實是可以由民間的合作的這些企業來去主動來去發布所以軍民之間的合作或者是透過類似這種Defense Innovation Unit還是我不知道我們現在正式名字是DIU還是DIO |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15426.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15447.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
D.I.O我們是用O嘛那以D.I.O來做這個重要的平台我覺得是有它的必要性那事實上美國在D.I.O美國的D.I.O或者是我國的D.I.O都有做一個平台那叫做DEF就是Defense Entrepreneur Forum就是讓這一些跟民間產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15448.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15470.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
有關聯的軍事國防相關的企業能夠共同在一個平台定期的聚會讓軍方可以把他們的問題提出來讓這些民間企業能夠來去知道說這是軍方目前所關切的這個產業鏈所以未來當他們去投資或者是要去具備一些產能之後他們就大概知道軍方的方向是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15470.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15491.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那比方說是情報相關的話他們也可以主動來去展示就像這一間公司一樣主動展示他們的能力那就會讓這些軍方知道說他們有這些能力之後進而來去獲取這些能力或者是分享這些能力我想這是未來我們要不管說商員的剛才我們稍早提到的商員的多量化的取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15492.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15519.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
或者是說讓我們的嚇阻力能夠增加的這種方式我想這些都是我們可以思考的方向我們的DIO其實他們每次跟我報告我都可以看得到他們非常辛苦的在跟我們所有的國內外相關的這些商情然後結合我們的各聯參部門在做相關的這些交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15519.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15543.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那確定我們的需求那如果達到我們的這個需求的時候我們現在也有進行小批量的採購等等那我們會努力來快速引進我們的這些符合我們需求的這些部長剛剛講到小批量多樣化快速這些就是我們未來國防新創創新的一個非常好的方向就是不是要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15545.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15571.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
二三十年的大型廠商來去壟斷這個市場就算他們壟斷市場也沒有辦法及時提供一些我們想要獲得的這些武器或者系統或者服務而是讓很多中小型企業這是我們唯一或許有的優勢因為我們是因為確實在現在這個時代已經在傳統的美國那個幾大軍火商之外有很多新創公司他們都不斷的有非常好的idea好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15576.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15579.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
接下來請鄭正前委員上台質詢主席好我想請一下顧立雄部長還有我們經濟部江文洛次長請顧部長還有經濟部次長江次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15601.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15614.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
政委好部長好因為我想說今天特別針對RDX這個採購案去做一個這樣的專報我想請教一下之前國防部應該也買過很多次的RDX對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15616.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15643.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
這不是第一次買嗎沒有就RDX就RDX是第一次是第一次買是不是以前都沒有買過國防部以前都沒有買過這樣子的一個火藥以前國防部有買過非常多的一些火藥的原物料包括發射藥包括B炸藥包括班乃特傳火藥條等等的這些火藥的原物料但是就RDX這一個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15643.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15665.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
是第一次是第一次買嗎第一次在對外採購你剛才有提到我們之前買過很多不同的火藥這麼多火藥的時候我們在這次要採購RTX的時候都沒有特別在尋商嗎因為你提到說前面兩次都是沒有人招標的一個情況在這種情況之下的時候我們國防部都沒有能力去特別去邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15666.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15677.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
之前曾經做過火藥採購的一個相關的一個廠商進來而就直接讓一個做不是這個本業跨行的斜槓的就直接來做這樣一個採購這樣子合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15679.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15698.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
沒有沒有跟委員報告我們軍備局事實上在114年2月26號到3月7號就公開徵求傷勤的做過然後也有一些公司來進行報價等等我們都有對外公開傷勤然後也來確認國內有沒有自製的產能等等所以也有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15699.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15724.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
因為我有看到國安部這邊的說法你們基本上說的強調都是合法在合法當中的時候雖然你們覺得合法程序上面合法可是民眾覺得很荒唐現在民眾幾乎是把高燈小吃店去轉賣快篩經營快篩 超市賣雞蛋跟我們現在的福麥賣火藥變成這幾年執政黨的三大奇案 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15725.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15740.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
的一個案子那這當中的時候都有一個很重要的一個點都強調說他們符合基本上面的一個商業登記所以我這邊的時候我想請教一下部長就是說我們國防部在審標的時候就只看它的公司登記跟價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15741.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15753.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
對於軍火的原料是不是沒有特別去看它是不是有實質軍工能力或者是經驗都不去看這個部分嗎委員報告因為這個就是一個代理進口所以我才會講過去20年來我們您剛有問到說RDXRDX我們有買過B炸藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15759.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15785.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我們除了披薩藥我們買過這個班萊特傳火藥等等那我們也有買過這個發射藥等等我們所有相關的廠商資格我們都採公開招標廠商的資格20年來都是如此理解他之所以要如此主要的原因就是因為他的重點是在於他能不能取得輸出許可的政策部長我理解因為這程序你剛剛都有講我們的意思是從合約合約來做控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15788.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15810.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
那我到特別提到的一個情況就是為什麼我請那個經濟部上來的一個原因就是因為比方說你剛提到說全部都符合這相關的規定可是因為民眾的觀感很差你知道嗎就是一個就是賣小吃店的可以賣快篩現在一個在做裝修的他也可以賣火藥那大家都覺得原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15812.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15833.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
本來大家都覺得軍火商應該是有相當大一個門檻可是我們現在發現我們可以這麼輕而易舉的扮演一個軍火商的一個角色這個其實是所以我的意思應該他營業項目要寫個軍火商嗎這個部分就是我想問一下那個經濟部的部分針對比方說目前我提到這幾個案子的時候呢大家都提到了一個商業登記的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15835.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15864.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那就表示商業登記這邊的時候感覺是非常的寬鬆的一個情況讓大家都可以親而一起踩進來那我在想說因為火藥這部分跟我們的國防的一個安全軍力特別有關係所以我在想說我們對於整個軍工原料的一個項目是不是會有一個特別的一個限制而不是現在你只要是一個能夠有國際貿易商有能夠進出口化學原料就可以來做這樣的一個軍火的一個相關的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15865.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15894.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
跟委員報告我們在營業登記項目的話如果他不是許可行業他都可以自行來做登記因為這個樣子是讓我們相關的資訊能夠更透明所以RDS像這樣子這麼重要的高爆的導彈原料的時候他也是一個就是基本上你只要能夠取得基本上就可以輕易進口的狀態但是他在輸入的時候在我們在海關稅者有特別的規定他一定要經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15895.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15923.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
經濟部的許可才可以進口那我們對於許可的話要做相關文件的查核過去的其他類別的國防部相關的產品也是循這樣的程序來進行的過去20年來所有相關這些火藥的進口也都是如此因為它是屬於要依照限制性貨品輸入許可管制品項要依經濟部定班的貨品輸入管理辦法取得進口的同意文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15923.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15939.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
部長 你把過去這十年我們有相關的一個火藥你覺得是類似的火藥的進口的一個相關的資料包括進口的廠商他們各自職的條件都給我一份資料因為我想要知道說這樣的一個裝修公司的一個能夠去賣火藥您竟然會覺得它是一個我想只要是公開的資料我們都會願意購買沒問題 因為這基本上如果是公開的採購應該都會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15947.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15968.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
我想知道過去這十年的時候我們國防部的相關的一個火藥的一個採購都是這麼樣子的輕鬆那麼不同的領域的都可以跨界斜槓進來做這樣的一個軍火的一個買賣交易嗎所以我想知道有這完整的一個資料請部長之後再給我一個完整的資料我們給您20年的資料好的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15973.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15998.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
好 謝謝已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員 蘇清泉委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員如果有指定期限者從其鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15998.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16024.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那另外剛剛在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是我們在擴充條款的條約的部分在復建因為我們的主約大概是5.9億那後面大概還是合約的部分我們現在要求國防部其實部長可能也可以去重視這一個部分我們講的是單價的部分因為單價如果現在是2900塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16027.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16029.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
一公斤2900塊我們希望在後續的這個擴充條約裡面你不要突然暴增到6000塊因為其實大家在這個部分也是會存在質疑的這個部分我們請國防部就這一點單價不可以做調整跟改變不可以增加那另外也請國防部跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16052.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16068.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
中科院也提供相關的這個文件另一個就是這個來源國的這個文件還有出口的許可還有危險品的運輸申報另外第四個就是驗證的流程還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16071.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16081.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
公開承運跟保險的相關資料還有審查的資料就這六個部分也請國防部跟中科院一併提供因為中科院有採購的標案然後國防部也有那就這個部分提供給本委員會接下來我們今天的會議就到此結束三會謝謝大家 |