| IVOD_ID |
17115 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17115 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-11T08:30:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-11T11:37:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:06:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4318d462e29c2f639e2506b9d78cd73cd5e67b2ed516237529d2f86ac7afe78b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部、審計部、行政院主計總處等就「八百萬助理費變成小金庫，立法院組織法恐成自肥法案？」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查委員許智傑等23人擬具「立法院公費助理任用法草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:31 - 11:37:00 |
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報告委員會初席委員8人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開會來進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年12月3日星期三上午9時至12時4分地點本院紅樓302會議室初席委員黃國昌委員等13人 |
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1961.477 |
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1988.063 |
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列席委員鄭正前委員等六人列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席翁昭吉委員小林報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二邀請法務部部長司法院副秘書長就民法繼承編特留分制度制檢討進行專題報告並被質詢本次會議有委員黃國昌等十二人提出質詢決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢時要求 |
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1988.743 |
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1994.268 |
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提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關尽速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏 |
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2002.608 |
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2016.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話我們議事錄就確定了我們接著介紹在場委員以及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員黃國昌委員王逸川委員還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2021.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2038.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
許智傑委員陳培宇委員那應邀列席我隨著介紹應邀列席的人員人數比較多我們就介紹主要的人員來看法務部法制司司長洪家遠洪司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2039.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2060.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
還有我們審計部副審計長 李順寶副審計長 行政院主計總署副主計長 陳慧娟副主計長還有我們 其他我就沒有了 我就代表性的了我們立法院副秘書長 張榮裕副秘書長 張裕隆 不好意思 您比較久來 所以黏著了 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2067.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2092.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
還有其餘未及介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單我們就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次的議場我們分別排定專題報告就800萬的助理費變成小金庫立法院組織法恐懲自肥法案以及審查委員習志杰等23年你具立法院公費助理任用 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2094.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2112.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
任用法草案會議進行巡曆才一併報告綜合詢答那我們現在來進行提案說明及報告先進行討論事項提案說明發言人三分鐘請提案人徐委員這節來進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2125.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2140.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席大家好今天周旺來秘書長怎麼沒有來今天審法案照理長秘書長應該要到的所以我們要公開的譴責一下為什麼不敢來 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2142.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2164.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 這個案子其實是蠻沉重的就是未來最重要的方向 傅坤祺所說的法案什麼叫進步法案事實上我提的這個案子才是進步法案我們要如何讓我們的助理法治化然後就是希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2165.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2190.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
助理是我們的夥伴我們的家人那更是推動台灣民主政治國會意識運作相當重要的一環那在很久以前我就提出立法院公費助理任用法就是為了提升助理薪資待遇保障助理的工作權益同時加上責任跟義務包括利益迴避保密規範滲透間諜等 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2193.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2219.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就是為了更符合社會的期待今天現場不論有藍綠白許多助理都非常反對這樣子一個自肥的法案那還有很多沒有到場的敢怒不敢言今天也謝謝莊瑞雄召委排審讓助理的權益再度受到重視我們立法院這個代表民意捍衛正義的最高殿堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2221.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2243.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
應該不是自匪跟喬助理費的爭議場所那國民黨的這個立法 這個提案呢要讓助理費除罪化那讓每年數百萬的公帑變成可以免檢據核銷統籌應用的小金庫這個不是國會改革 這是國會沉淪 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2246.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2273.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們希望說這個的重點將來這個重點其實有三個第一個就是提供薪資標準鼓勵人才久任第二個明確法律定位保障助理權益第三強化倫理規範公開透明防弊我們希望說跟助理站在一起不要把助理當奴工而是當夥伴然後把公款公用讓他公開透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2274.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2300.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那當然這個是未來最進步的方向應該是朝這個方向去走那國民黨現在這個案子呢其實是退步的法案那當然我想我們也可以考慮到國民黨為什麼他會提這個法案他想說有以前很多的助理廢 那因為有爭議現在有些人在監獄裡面關有些人案子在審理當中那我是這樣子建議啦 事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2301.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2330.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
助理如果是這些助理會以前其實有很多認識不清啦那或者說有一些虛報或者是就是用不同的人頭不管他怎麼報只要他沒有中保私囊是不是有機會就是認錯檢討改進還錢沒有犯意請求輕判讓他們有緩刑的機會我是覺得這個是司法的部分那當然就是司法的部分歸司法我們不能去干涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2331.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2355.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是如果有一些並不是本來就有犯意本來就沒有中保私囊那這樣子的人這樣子的一個名利代表有沒有讓他認錯我剛提過認錯檢討改進還錢沒有犯意請求輕判讓他們有緩刑的機會現在有很多的案例我們看得到的就是包括以前的潘懷中 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2357.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2381.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
還有現在的黃少庭像這樣子的機會其實有很多目前因為他們就是還在審理當中有沒有這種機會我是希望說在法官也可以用這樣子的角度來斟酌很多人並不是真的本來就有嚴格的犯意當然你有犯意被關的那個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2382.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2405.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
應該的嘛那你如果沒有範例備官其實這個部分我是覺得大家有一個思考的空間那以上就是說就以前跟以後以前我認為應該用這個角度來處理有關於助理費爭議的問題以後應該是朝我現在講的我自己的提案就是公費助理任用法這樣子才是一個進步的方向請大家斟酌 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2407.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2417.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 謝謝 我們接著請機關代表報告 每位發言時間3分鐘先請法務部法制司 洪嘉雲 洪市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2424.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2440.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席 各位委員今天奉邀列席司法法治委員會請代表法務部報告說明如下首先針對專題報告部分針對專題報告的部分有兩點第一點是不論立法院的組織法是否修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2441.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2462.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那助理費的資金來源仍然屬於公帑而對於任何公職人員來說公款公用都是很重要的準則帕因助理費的性質變更對此產生疑議甚至是否有深除罪化效果的質疑此攸關公共利益及廉政的要求建請能夠廣納各方的意見審慎的來研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2464.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2474.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那第二點是司法院4至499號解釋理由中有接觸利益迴避是任何公職人員行使職權均應遵守的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2475.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2494.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那憲法徵修條文第八條也有規定立法委員之報酬或待遇應以法律定之除年度通案調整者外單獨增加報酬或待遇之規定應自次屆起實施這主要就是為了避免就是招人質疑那 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2495.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2520.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
司法院的一個釋字解釋針對現在陳委員等28人有提出的立法院組織法第32條33、35條的條文修正草案它其中的規定有將國會助理費的一個性質定義行為對於委員的補助款並改為由立法院撥與立法委員統籌運用免檢據核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2524.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2540.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
立法委員統籌運用的項目也不再設限於助理費助理實施健康檢查費用文康費用或其他依勞動基準法等規定應由雇主負擔之相關費用及辦公室務費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2542.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2558.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那從上該的性質改變我們可以看出來事實上已增加立法委員的實質收入那所以是不是應該依照剛剛所接觸的司法院的一個釋字解釋以及憲法徵修條文的這樣的一個規定意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2560.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2576.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
然後次借起實施 建請一併審酌那麼第二點是針對剛剛徐委員所提出的立法院公費助理任用罰草案說明第一個部分是針對草案第三條第一款的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2577.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2591.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
它里头的规定是说本法所定的名词定义如下立法院公费助理但是在法治上头来讲它后面并没有相关文字的一个定义说明那么第二点的话是针对草案的第11条第二项 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2592.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2610.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他主要是根據就是說有關於公費助理用利用權利公款或公務上之秘密消息而圖利者依刑法第131條的規定情節重大準用134條的規定處斷那麼這邊有兩個說明第一個是按照刑法134條 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2613.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2632.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不好意思 謝謝按照刑法134條的規定的話他是說公務員假借職務上之權利機會或方法以故意犯本章以外之各罪者那很顯而易見的是131條就是所謂賭職罪章中的罪所以131跟134條其實它有這樣的一個關係是不是這個時候還能夠再去說 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2636.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2656.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
做適用或准用134條是有一些疑義那第二個所謂的准用來講的話它是指某事項的一個法規與性質上不相抵觸的範圍內適用其他事項之外意思就是說它不是完全的適用所援引的法規它是性質上相當的部分允許 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2656.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2671.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那所以實得為之那基於罪行法定原則啦那如果這個是試射到罪行的處罰的話原則上都要求要明確化那這個時候是不是以用準用的方式的立法方式為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2672.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2697.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那至於其他提案的部分是也因為時間是涉到公費助理聘僱 遴選相關資訊公開透明助理費額度的一個調整機制還有資深助理資格等等這些部分本部都尊重委員的職權行使以及大院的審議結果 謝謝好 謝謝等一下還有機會補充說明接下來請審計部副審計長李順寶副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2705.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2719.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席 國務委員 女士先生審計部應邀列席國務委員會專題報告自感榮幸檢討報告如下有關大院公費助理預算的編列跟執行情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2720.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2745.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
依據大院114年度的單位預算是在這個工作計劃公費助理向下編列人事費有8億5000萬餘元另外業務費部分是360萬366萬餘元截至114年10月底子公費助理項目的預算支應結果實現率大概是95% |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2747.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2768.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
另外在有關審計的實務部分審計部執行審計工作都是以相關的法律還有法定預算及機關訂定的各項規定等作為審核的準據至於相關支出憑證的審核主要是依據行政院主義總署訂定的政務支出憑證處理要點規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2769.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2788.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那一該要點第三點規定各機關的員工申請支付款項因本誠信原則對所提出的支出憑證的支付事實真實性負責不實則應負相關責任最後報告結語依據大院的組織法規定還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2791.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2806.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
114年度法定預算跟大院訂定的公費助理實施健康檢查補助要點等規定公費助理的酬金獎金經過照冊撥給直接撥給助理加班費是依加班清澈核實撥款 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2807.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2829.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
健康檢查費也是每人每年在上限4500元的情況之下檢附相關醫療機構的單據來核銷那唐大院的組織法跟公費助理有關的條文經過修正公佈那本部當局來辦理相關的審核事宜以上報告 敬請主席 各位委員 女士先生指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2831.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2838.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好 謝謝副審計長接下來請行政院主計總署副主計長陳慧娟副主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2842.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2871.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席 各位委員 理事先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就公費助理的議題提出報告簡要的說明如下首先立法委員公費助理制度是基於立法院組織法所設計提供必要的人力跟資源協助委員行使職權提升問政品質所以目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2872.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2899.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們所了解公費助理核銷的方式在人事費方面有關公費助理的薪資年終獎金加班費每年系依照立委的人數跟立委黨團協商結論有關立委及黨團助理薪資加班費等上限以及年終獎金按1.5個月的薪資來編列並按助理名冊核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2902.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2930.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
退休準備金跟勞健保則依公費助理人數跟勞動基準法等規定編列預算並按助理名冊核銷在業務費方面文康活動費按照公費助理人數及人事總署所定文康活動實質要點還有本總署所定共同性費用編列的基準表每人每年 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2931.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2947.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
兩三千元來編列並檢據核銷在健康檢查費方面是按照研究公費助理每人兩年一次以及立法院鎖定公費助理實施健康檢查補助要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2948.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2963.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
補助基準每人每年4500元編列並減拒核銷三 我們就內部審核相關的規範說明政府各項經費支出的財源均屬公款 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2963.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2988.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
必須依預算所定用途來執行所以必須取得合乎用途的憑證然後對於這個支付事實要來負責不實的要負相關責任尚無任何的例外最後不管我們認為相關法案的修改或增列我們都必須確保公款的妥善運用以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2993.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3019.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
謝謝副主席長接下來我們要請立法院來做報告我手上這邊我們周萬來秘書長今天請假請假條在我手上這個也是按照整個議事規則本來就可以做這樣的一個處理但是比較可惜今天本來就是整個法案的一個負責就是我們立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3022.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3038.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
秘書長今天在草野協商 是不是那就很可惜了 安排得很巧妙本來草野協商都是在下午進行今天這個案子 就你來說吧算你這樣可以附加有功來 立法院副秘書長張玉榮副秘書長來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3044.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3065.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那周秘書長因為客政參加黨團協商由我副秘書長來帶領那今日奉邀列席貴委員會全體委員會議深感榮幸針對今日的議程所列的立法院公費助理任用法草案的意見說明如次敬請委員參考為輔助立法委員專業問政 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3067.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3090.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
處理行政書及選民服務立法院於民國74年經過院會決議增列政府公費補助每位委員助理研究補助費每月新台幣15000元系公費補助立法委員研究之用彌補委員財力不足且依立法院組織法第32條第一項規定立法委員每人得至公費助理8人至14人由委員聘用 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3091.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3115.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
立法院應每年編列每一立法委員一定數額之助理費及其辦公事務預算公費助理與委員同進退其一勞動基準法所規定之相關費用均由立法院編列預算之應之準此公費助理聘用的主體為立法委員以及委員與助理間的關係是聘僱契約關係之雙方當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3118.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3135.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
立法院依規定僅負編列預算與撥款職責居於協助行政作業的角色而非聘用助理的主體因此有關公費助理的臨聘解聘聘用資格薪資工作內容差勤管理及各項人事管理等均屬雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3137.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3165.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
及委員的權責立法院僅依各委員辦公室提供委員親自簽名的聘書及聆聘異動表等資料代為辦理其所屬公費助理薪資合撥與勞健保加退保等相關的事宜至於本次貴委員會所排許委員所提的提案涉及黨團及委員聘任公費助理相關的內容基於行政幕僚的立場尊重委員合意的決定以上報告敬請指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3169.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3177.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝副秘書長那其餘提出書面報告機關有沒有口頭的補充全序部沒有內政部也沒有外交部還有勞動部大陸委員會沒有行政院人事行政總署也沒有國家安全局個人資料保護委員會籌備處 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3200.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3228.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
如果沒有補充報告那我們機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來進行詢答那本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長了那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位王國昌委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3236.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3245.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
來 謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部法治司司長審計部副審計長以及立法院的副秘書長來 請機關代表三位好 時間的關係不宜問候透過法律的修法為個案解套或免除刑事責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3262.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3281.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在我國憲政史上最有名的是2013年5月31號會計法的修正那次的修正在院會裡面沒有經過任何討論四個黨團的黨鞭在一場後面的小會議室簽了黨團協商結論5月31號夜黑風高三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3291.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3317.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
結果引發社會軒然大波當時馬英九總統出面道歉民主進步黨黨主席蘇貞昌出面道歉江宜樺提出復議立法院不經過邀請行政院院長直接復議通過推翻原決議我想這在憲政史上史跡斑斑 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3319.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3343.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那一次整個公民社會也上了一課再一次針對有關於國會助理費的法制化開始出現了這樣的法制化 制度化是不是在幫個案修法解套的質疑這樣的質疑當然有討論的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3345.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3370.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
公費公用公費公用剛剛法務部說得非常的好這是一個沒有辦法退的底線同時如果就跟自己職權相關的到下一屆才開始適用在憲政上面也是一個合一的作為但我現在看不懂我為什麼看不懂我離開立法院2020年離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3373.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3399.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我最關心的一件事情是國務機要費修法的處罪化那時候我回到公民社會作為一個公民我眼睜睜的看著立法院在2022年為個案推動修法我看了今天法務部的書面報告寫的是直立有聲當年法務部對於這件事情卻是勁若寒蟬 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3400.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3411.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
當年的法務部當年是怎麼講的對於國務機要費將來是否修法除罪化本部尊重主管機關及大院職權這是當年 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3413.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3441.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這是當年國務紀要費修法的時候法務部所表達的見解今天只有司長來我其實不想為難司長因為內容寫成這個樣子一定是當初部長的指示一定是當初部長的指示我只希望法務部回去看一看你們今天在書面文字上面所表達的態度跟當年所表達的態度標準一致嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3446.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3457.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
市長如果不便回答就說不便回答我說了我不會為難你這一定是部長的決定當年這樣的法務部靜若寒蟬法務部有什麼想說的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3459.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3484.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我想法務部這邊來講都是基於各部會分工來講的話都是尊重主管機關以及立法院的一個職權行使我想這樣的立場今天也沒有改變但是當然針對這件事情來講應該認真的去探究它在整個法評價上頭的意義意涵沒關係啦 說到這個地方我覺得也夠了我不為難你接下來請立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3487.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3505.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
當初啦 在這個修法的過程當中啊因為爭議很大嘛所以啊 國務及要費的除罪化我們來回顧一下當年立法的討論一片空白第一個在委員會報告詢答的時候民主進步黨提案停止詢答沒有詢答在委員會大體討論的時候沒有大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3514.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3537.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
在委員會逐條討論的時候 民進黨提案停止討論全案保留送院會 9點開會 9點14分上會在委員會一片空白黨團協商的時候 也沒有進行黨團協商召開黨團協商 人沒有到齊嘛人沒有到齊 就送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3539.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3568.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
上院會的時候沒有經過廣泛討論也沒有經過逐條討論會計法99條之一國務計要費的除罪化立法討論一片空白從委員會到黨團協商到院會沒有討論完全不用討論完全不用討論不是沒有討論沒有民主嗎還是特定的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3569.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3574.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
只要符合民進黨的利益不用討論 為什麼要討論除罪話除罪話沒有討論立法討論一片空白民進黨狹人數優勢國務機要費正式除罪話這不是我講的這個是新聞媒體下的標 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3595.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3623.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這是新聞媒體下的標過去的這段歷史我們來看看對現在立法院的運作對現在立法院的運作過去黨團協商黨團協商有委員會召集協商的時候人沒有到齊或沒有共識2016年5月3號蘇嘉全就宣告發出協商會議通知而黨團未出席會議及 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3625.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3650.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
未達成共識一個月內只要發過一次通知無協商共識及無法達成共識所以怎麼樣所以那個時候在主持院會的蔡啟昌才宣告報告院會協商已於一個月無法達成共識依照立法院職權刑事法71條之一的規定有院會定期處理所以我要再確認一下在我們的立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3652.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3678.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
針對立法院職權行使法的解釋也好議事的先例也好委員會有召集協商沒有辦法達成共識本來就可以送院會處理我從過去到現在我的一直理解是如此我看議事先例也是如此但是最近好像開始又變了是不經過院長協商不能處理如果不經過院長協商要處理的話就要打架 就要杯葛 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3680.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3698.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個是我們的議事規則嗎來麻煩請副秘書長幫大家示意一下謝謝委員那相關的議事規則我想都非常有明文規定啦那至於說怎麼樣子的會議程序基於國會治理原則我想尊重委員的一個行使方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3699.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3725.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
OK 你也是回答得很藝術啦不要進入比較深水區黨派跟黨派彼此之間黨團跟黨團彼此之間不同的看法我尊重啦但是我想藉由這個機會把議事的潛力把它說明清楚也有助於國人瞭解本來就是嘛交協商委員會開了協商沒有辦法達成共識就送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3727.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3738.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
如果非要院長協商不可的話那知識體大那院長如果沒有時間公務繁忙那整個法案不就塞車了嗎來 接下來有請副審計長委員好副審計長好有一個案子我非常的關切這已經是違法濫權貪污腐敗 莫此為勝 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3754.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3775.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我們的速發部全額補助大同醫護取得資安院的標案違法履約驗收不實之前我在交通委員會質詢資安院的院長質詢速發部的部長莫名其妙拿舊的東西來結果可以出假的新品證明書拿中國製的網通產品結果可以驗收通過驗收不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3784.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3808.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
從頭到尾包庇放水想要蒙混過關這件事情我總共質詢了三次我總共質詢了三次事情非常的嚴重但是我是不知道我們的訴發部跟資安院是官官相護彼此包庇上下交香賊混了半天內部還在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3811.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3831.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
到底要怎麼處理最近好像有一些結果快要出來了但我要真正認真的問是說他們也知道審計部在這件事情做了審計那審計他們回覆目前審計部是他們有照實回覆還是想要用混的因為我還沒有機會問審計部這個問題啊藉由今天質詢的機會麻煩副審計長跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3838.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3853.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個案子我們實際在查核的時候有發現就是資安院他沒有落實履約管理所以才有剛剛委員所提到的就是有廠商用不實或不符契約的設備來履約 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3854.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3880.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那另外有廠商繳交的不實文件而且那個也超於這個原來契約規定的這個時間而且沒有依照規定檢討來刊登政府財務公報那目前我們已經要求他來做相關的什麼時候要求的我們大概詳細的時間應該蠻早的因為我們原來委員在質詢的時候我們就已經有列管這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3880.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3900.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
列管到什麼時候我現在雞皮皮啊我質詢完開完記者會洪祈昌開記者會所以我指控不實啊我聽的是完全聽不懂啊完全聽不懂啊我講的連訴發部都承認連資安院都承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3901.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3928.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
然後還厚著臉皮 發說我指控不實那今天審計部在這邊按照審計調查的結果又再次的印證就是拿不實的東西來混嘛納稅人的錢 納稅人的錢拿不實的東西來混結果我們的訴發部 我們的資安院混到現在不想要包庇到什麼時候拜託審計部好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3931.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3957.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這件事情一定要追到底啊審計部列管到什麼時候跟委員報告就是最近我們在10月1號的時候有我們有特別另外在喊請這個治安院要檢討改善並且要查處相關人員的他回復了沒有委屈責任那數化部在那個12月他有申復目前他申復喔不服喔覺得他做得很對喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3958.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3980.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
跟委員報告目前速發部的答覆是啟動採購法廠商停權跟治安院人員的責任檢討那這個目前至於有一些部分涉及廠商有刑責的部分他也已給調查單位在偵辦中那個速發部回來給你們的方面提供給我嗎我們可以整理一下文件跟委員書面報告好謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3984.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3988.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好 謝謝黃國昌委員 接下來請王逸川委員尋答好 謝謝主席 我們請立法院副秘書長跟勞動部的同仁 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4012.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4015.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
副秘書長還有勞動部專委李專委副秘書長好委員好請問一下這個最近陳玉珍等28名委員的提案你有看過嗎大概有看了一下好那這個提案跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4035.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4043.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
115年116年2026年立法院的預算書的內容那有沒有要調整如果必要的時候我們的內容可能會做調整好 那這個立委的這個公費助理的酬金你們這個編這個酬金的當時的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4060.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4086.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個部分是協助公費助理是一個非常重要的一個協助委員的職務所以委員行使法定職權的時候助理都可以協助他好那如果這個助理的酬金直接由委員來統籌運用那按照陳玉珍委員的提案那個有沒有規定立委一定要聘公費助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4089.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4114.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我想這個部分經過討論如果說這個法已經三讀通過了那我們會按照這個法的規定來處理他就寫若干人 因為要你們 換你們執行這個部分應該是比較初步的一個抽象的規定那可能還有一個具體的一個如果答案就是若干人 沒有改 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4116.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4136.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
如果這是一個法定強制的一個要求的話我想每一個委員的一個聘用的部分我們行政財務部好 那他就是有可能聘凌人嗎那聘凌人跟你們送到這個立法院來進行審議的預算就有衝突了 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4137.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4161.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為當時你們比如說115年邊市用113個立委每個立委8至14人的公費助理相關的費用總共大概一年8億8千多萬 沒有錯如果這個立委都不聘助理了這些錢都按照陳毓貞的版本他都不聘助理了那就跟你們送進來的預算的內容已經完全不一樣了 怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4163.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4191.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我剛才跟委員報告過了如果說法通過以後有必要的時候我們那個預算的編列當然會做相應的調整好 那他不聘助理你們要撥錢嗎至於說如果說法通過他的一個前提是聘用若干人的話那這個若干人到底有沒有包含零人這個部分我想是有一個解釋的空間那裡面的原來編的預算的8億8千多萬這個數字是用8到14人估的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4192.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4200.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
113個立委啊你現在如果這些立委們的邊的助理是零人那這個錢怎麼辦這個錢你們要照撥嗎我講的是實際執行面這立法院要撥款啊實際也照撥嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4206.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4229.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我想這個部分 助理有多少人是由委員來聘任 委員是一個僱主的概念那叫聘零人嘛 那你們錢也是照撥嗎沒有 如果說他沒有聘的話我們這邊不會有撥款的這樣一個動作我們現在是按照委員所提的 到底聘了多少人是現在嘛 我說那個立法過了以後 陳律師的案子過了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4231.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4254.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這些錢就立委統籌運用嘛 不限發給助理費嘛他可以不發助理費啊 不發加班費啊通通拿去施用啊那這個時候你們撥不撥錢啊現在所有助理關心這件事情啊這個部分要看到時候 那個法通過以後法規定的內容來說不是法規定 按照成立政策版本通過的話啦我們現在不是要討論這些事情嗎啊這通過以後 你們是執行單位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4258.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4281.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
對吧 你們是執行單位嘛那你們會不會撥款啦依法執行會不會撥依法執行你會不會撥啦要看當時候的法律啊就是撥嘛依法執行嘛啊就是撥嘛 對不對那撥了以後委員都不報助理的這個勞動的這個報酬都不報因為這統酬進來之後啊立委有可能就報零人啊那助理都不請了助理都不請了那立法還能怎麼樣沒有要怎麼樣 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4289.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4318.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
尊重委員的權利就尊重委員權利所以在立法院的立場立法院的副秘書長代表秘書長來你們的立場就尊重委員委員如果不請助理你們請趙波不請助理你們就尊重委員 對吧有兩個要件啦第一個要件當然就是合法啦到時候的法律怎麼規定就怎麼來執行如果就是通過陳立正的法案啦你們請趙波啊立委不請助理不給這個助理的酬金你們就尊重委員嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4319.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4321.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
沒錯吧 好 來勞動部那如果有請了助理然後不給基本工資勞動部怎麼做顧問關係成立那他就是適用勞基法的對象那就不能低於我們規定的最低工資好 那我不併他當公費助理那他這個勞工的權利怎麼保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4346.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4372.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
不是公費助理其他勞工的雇傭關係也是一樣只要是有雇傭關係是適用勞基法對象都要符合最低工資那勞健保去哪裡保勞保的那個部分有我們勞工保險條例那健保這個部分我就勞保勞保去哪裡保勞保是跟我們的勞工保險局就是如果他是法令規定一定要投保的對象那就是要必須要依法要投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4373.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4397.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那現在按照你的了解這案子接下來這一個雇主會是誰立法院的公費助理的勞僱關係它是成立在立法院的委員跟我們的助理之間委員跟助理之間那雇主的提撥呢依法應該要提撥就是這個立委要提撥立委的錢就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4398.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4405.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
撥給我們統籌運用的錢我們要提撥只要是有成立雇用關係所有勞基法上的權益都要符合好來那個副秘書長按照成立真的版本統籌運用之後的這一個雇主提撥也撥給委員嗎要依照勞基法相關的規定來處理所以撥給委員還是才是放在你們那裡現在是你們駙馬對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4424.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4452.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
現在公費助理是你們付嘛那你們現在給立委統籌運用了嘛 對不對我們現在的公費助理是撥給委員那邊去做運用因為僱主是委員啊我說僱主提撥那個錢啊就你們這裡撥出去嘛 對不對就是依法提撥那細節的部分可以請人事處長來做不是啦 我是說那接下來那筆錢也是撥給委員統籌運用是不是啦如果法律是這樣規定的話那就委員統籌運用嘛那委員也不聘助理 那統籌運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4453.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4481.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那些錢要不要還給立法院啊我就沒請助理啊我怎麼會有雇主提拔勒邏輯上是啦邏輯上是這樣啦當然就是這國家的錢大家要沒有去運用的話大家要回到國庫啊有統籌運用啦他那個條例有統籌運用不用還啊統籌運用的部分牽涉到比較細節的部分啦到時候的那個法律規定的內容是怎麼樣我們才是依法不然叫陳立正的版本啦你是有看版本我一開始就問你有沒有看 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4482.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4498.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那是草案而已 那不是阿伯看的照那個通過啦照那個通過你們怎麼執行啦我就不 就立委沒有請助理那僱主提撥的那個錢也會撥給立委嘛那立委要不要去付是立委決定嘛 那我就不付是怎樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4499.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4527.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
僱主有沒有請助理跟他有沒有提撥錢是兩件事不是啊 你擠的不好嘛請的助理才會有提撥錢沒有請助理就不會有提撥錢嘛不是啊 你擠的不好立委嘛統籌運用嘛對對嘛 對要就沒請助理那筆記要寫嗎如果說法通過是全部撥給立委他去統籌運用他當然就由委員來統籌運用不是啊 那你裡面有含那個僱主的提撥嘛他就要依法提撥啊要就沒請助理要提撥沒有助理就不用提撥啊沒有請助理 那個錢要不要還啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4529.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4543.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
如果是 你們的預算裡頭就是會一次撥過去嘛那就要看那個項目有沒有符合相關的法律規定啊我的意思 你的意思是說你都會提撥就對了你都會擠撥過去委員要怎麼用是委員的事嘛如果相關的法律規定有這樣的規定的話那當然要依法執行那如果按照現在陳立正的版本就是現在這8億8千 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4554.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4570.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
8億8千127萬9千元今年度假設今年度的這個數字這個錢你們就全部撥給113個立委嗎是一個統籌運用的概念假設這樣是一個概念的話那當然就依照這個概念來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4570.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4578.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
所以8億多全部撥給113個立委每個立委就是多了779萬多這個數字那這個數字你們撥出去後面立委要怎麼統籌運用立法院管不著法律如果這樣規定我們當然就這樣諮詢所以你們就是一個基本上委員跟助理之間當然就是所以你們就是一個轉帳的機構就對了我們是行政協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4594.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4608.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
就轉帳嘛 就把錢轉給立委 立委要怎麼用是立委的事嘛那如果法律規定是統籌運用在你們的角度就是把這個錢撥給立委嘛那後來立委要不要用 怎麼用也是他的事嘛好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4611.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4632.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好 謝謝王逸川委員副秘書長要注意這個是第一個針對議題還沒進入深水區來詢問其實你也代表了立法院的立場代表你們周秘書長 更代表你們韓國瑜院長你講那要想一想這個未必要介入哪一個政黨之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4634.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4647.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
當一個正常人就好你那個詢答那個答覆回去你自己再看一看搞不好你自己都看不下去好不好來 接下來我們請翁曉琳委員做詢答好 謝謝好 首先先請秘書長先請張副秘秘書長請教來 副秘書長先請張副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4666.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4683.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
委員好是 張富密早安因為我剛聽了王逸川委員的質詢那麼我在想說您可能對於陳玉珍委員的提案不是那麼的了解那麼您我們先從憲刑法來講好了我們立法委員每一個委員至少要聘多少位助理8到14位對 8到14位那這次陳玉珍委員的提案裡面他並沒有講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4695.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4707.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
並沒有說是完全不聘助理他要聘助理若干人至於這個若干人到底是一定要有一個人所以至少一定是一人以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4709.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4720.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那麼是不是需要像現在八人以上或是未來有可能會調整成為其他最低像其他國家至少國會助理三人以上我覺得這都有討論的空間所以可能待會要請這個張富密可能再仔細研讀一下陳玉珍委員的提案那另外我要講就是說今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4730.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4733.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
有關於立法委員聘用助理修法的提案只是一個委員的提案那縱使本席有連署那我只是認為說這樣的提案或許可以拿到或許之後有機會假設有進到委員會議裡面來討論大家可以有不同的版本集思廣益 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4751.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4754.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那至於就說這個陳玉珍委員裡面提案的內容是否妥適這本來立法院就很多討論的空間這並不是說是之後一定會以陳玉珍委員的提案版本通過坦白說以我個人的立場裡面有些內容我也不見得是贊同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4769.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4796.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以呢這個部分的話我想就是說待會張複敏在回答其他委員的議題時候我建議就是說可能還可以再從這方面的角度然後來去做回應畢竟這個立法院不是某一個委員提出的版本就會照案通過的這是在大家都清楚的一件事情那當然今天討論到立法委員聘用助理的事情那以本席雖然說我在立法院我是之前的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4797.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4815.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
跟莊委員跟我們在這個其他委員來比我是之前的委員但是我的確我從大學端我到了立法院我看到聘用助理的狀況我發現了一些問題而有些問題的確是制度面上的僵化或者是說現行法律制度上面的不足所以呢才引發了這麼多的爭議那本期在之前在擔任這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4820.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4849.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
立法院的这个集合委员会的时候我有提出来说希望立法院法治局可以针对立法委员国会议员以及助理的问题来进行延伤所以为什么今天大家会看到立法院法治局的这份报告他们说这是我当时我在集合委员会的时候我有提出来为什么因为我想这边请教张富民您在立法院非常多年了请问一下我们立法委员可以聘任兼任助理吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4851.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4867.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
目前都是專任助理都是專任助理對不對我們不能拚任經驗助理或是我們也不能拚任工讀生明明就現在整個立法院立法委員的業務的面向非常多譬如說我可能只需要請一個終點的助理來幫我剪剪影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4867.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4888.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
拍拍照或是某個活動的時候需要有一個兼任part-time的人去幫忙可是問題是我現在我沒有辦法利用立法院的經費去支出我只能聘的都是專任助理那麼如果說我辦公室我有任何的業務上面我需要請教專家學者來諮詢或是我需要有一個小小的委託研究案請問我們現在立法委員有這樣的經費可以去支應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4898.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4901.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這是我們個別分給我們的委員的辦公室的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4904.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4931.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
似乎是没有嘛对不对我们没有类似这样的经费可以运用所以这也是不仅是我还有其实蛮多的朝野不分蓝绿白的这个委员们其实都有提出来说那就立法委员助理的聘用制度可不可以更为弹性而且呢当然我们一定会基站在现在保障立法委员立法委员助理既有的权利上面去做调整 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4932.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4945.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以包含國會助理他說的維持原來的什麼文康費用 健檢費用或是其他這些勞權依照勞基法上面的權利不會有任何的改變所以今天這個工會助理們他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4951.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4959.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
有一些反彈有些可能不是很清楚的狀況我都能理解但是我在這裡我也要特別說明任何一個法律的修正絕對不會影響到具有助理的權益除非是他們認為他們自己可能不夠qualified不夠優秀可能擔心未來改變的時候可能立法委員可能不願意再聘用他們我覺得可能會有一些這樣子一個擔心考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4978.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4993.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為以我們現在立法院給這個立法就是立法院每年編列預算支應立法委員的助理費用至少要聘8個人但是大概也就是40來萬左右聘8個人平均一個人是多少錢大概就5萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4994.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5015.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們如果要聘非常好的很優秀的國會助理其實這個錢是聘不到的所以為什麼一定要限縮在八個人坦白說我基本上是反對我認為說可以比照像是德國 日本等等這些國會辦公室國會議員的辦公室至少聘三位以上那我可以聘會計師 我可以聘律師我可以甚至聘這個很有專精的研究員 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5021.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5041.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我可以給他很高的薪水但是以我們現的薪資待遇來講不可能做到這一點我想我這邊講的不知道張富敏您在長期在立法院的觀察是不是就像我說的我不可能就是聘低於八個人以下的助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5043.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5070.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
目前的法律來講委員當然是8到14位的公費助理所以說他依照法律應該就一定要聘助理至少8位那另外公費助理的部分我想兩個重點院長也在媒體上也表達過了有關於公費助理的權益的部分一定要依法而且盡力來維護因為公費助理對委員的問政來講是一個非常非常重要的一個協助的力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5070.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5095.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
是的 沒錯所以這也是我一直認為說其實我們立院的國會助理的所有的他們的權益還有他們的各方面的能力其實都應該要提升接下來當然就是比較回歸到法律面的問題我為什麼也支持這次的立法委員的聘用助理的這個議題應該要進行一些討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5098.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5125.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
因為確實現在立法院立法委員立法委員助理國會助理這三角關係法律關係是不清不楚的我們這邊請勞動部勞動部有派員先請教複密我們現在立法委員助理就是立委助理那麼他的雇主到底是誰他雇主是委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5126.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5149.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
是委員 對 是委員但是呢 這個薪水又是由誰來發薪水實質上是委員的發那便利是由那個立法院便利好 所以說從立法院的角度認為講說是其實立法委員就是實際的雇主那既然我們是實際的雇主我們跟立委助理之間的關係是什麼是依照司法上面勞基法僱傭關係嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5153.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5174.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個剛剛我在報告裡面有提到這是一個聘僱關係 聘僱契約關係就是勞僱關係嘛聘僱契約關係不就勞僱關係對 所以來請教勞動部在過去其實也曾經有發生過這個各地方的這個什麼勞檢單位到立法委員辦公室來進行勞檢後來當然有可能有發現有違規的處罰的單位是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5178.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5197.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
處罰是立法院嗎處罰的是雇主因為雇主是委員所以就是他如果是違法的話那就會是處罰委員是那所以如果說是處罰如果說如果說是立法委員就是雇主的話那麼按照現在的公費助理或是國會私費助理他的會有差別嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5199.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5217.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
就是大家知道現在其實很多的立法委員因為有各地方的服務區所以他也可能在現在的經費不足的情況之下他會用他自己的錢他也會去聘助理所以到底立法委員跟自己用錢聘的助理的關係跟我用這個立法院編列經費來支應的這個助理關係勞基法上其實他是不會去處理經費的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5224.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5239.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
他其實只看雇傭關係是成立在委員跟勞工之間這裡在講的勞工其實是不管是公費助理或者是他其他聘僱關係的成立他的僱主就是委員本人好 謝謝勞動部的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5241.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5255.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那麼也因為很清楚今天這個立委助理跟僱主之間的跟立委之間的關係不管他的薪資來源從哪裡來基本他就是成立的就是司法上面依據勞基法的相關的這個僱傭關係勞僱官關係那麼但是呢大家要知道現在就立法委員助理來講因為他薪資來源如果說按照國會助理的他們這些訴求來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5267.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5280.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這非常有可能就是讓他們成為所謂的委託型的公務員現在立法委員助理在國會拿所謂的公費助理他算不算是公務員請教張富敏他算是公務員嗎這個部分應該是法務部主管的法規來做解釋我跟你講這個在解釋上面就有空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5294.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5321.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
如果说我们讲说把公务员的定位分成他可能是身份型公务员还有什么劳务型公务员等等那么其实现在的立法院的国会助理他有可能会被定性为公务员所以一旦有任何的触犯他可能立刻就跳到贪污资罪条例里面去做处理这也不是我们作为立法委员我作为雇主我不愿意看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5323.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5349.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這件事為什麼我現在基本上我認為說要很清楚的把這幾個關係釐清楚現在外界會認為公費助理他的雇主真的就是立法委員嗎其實我們立法委員沒有那麼大的權利我所有的這個聘書還有這個每年的每個月的薪資的更換我都要向立法院去做報備去做申請許可我要去更換 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5350.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5359.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以好像實質上我們是雇主但是名義上我們是不是真的是雇主還是我們只是立法院的人頭雇主而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5360.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5370.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這關係很複雜這也是我認為說在趁著這次議題當然這個法案我們是不是繼續要往前推進當然要看這個莊昭偉要不要排案那我這裡我會再聆聽大家的意見那麼看看就是等到雙方助理公會還有社會大眾意見以及各部會立法院立法委員們的意見我們大家一起來及時廣義看看這樣的法案要不要繼續推進因為推進它基本也代表一種改革那麼它是有好處的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5390.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5419.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
但是如果不改就像現在這樣子可能動不動立法委員就什麼適用泰國秩序條例然後這個助理也變成是公務犯但是明明在其他國家裡面非常清楚基本上立法委員國會議員他不會把他視為是公務員在很多國家都把他排除於他就不是公務員那麼如果說立法委員真的有侵占助理的費用夠不夠成犯罪請問張富敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5422.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5439.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
这部分我们立法院不是主管机关好 应该是人事处当然构成犯罪刑法上不是有侵占罪 诈欺罪一大堆的犯罪所以现在外面的媒体说什么立法院我们这次陈昀臻委员的提案基本上是要把立委什么除罪化 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5440.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5453.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
哪來的什麼除罪化頂多是說可能在法律適用上面不適合去適用貪污治罪條例但是它還是有很多特別法刑法民法勞基法等等的相關的法律的規定並不是說是除罪化 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5455.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5478.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
所以這個議題基本上是很重要的雖然說現在外面的討論很多雜音很多而且很多都被媒體帶風向然後變成是好像是立法委員變得自肥連統籌運用的這個概念任何的錢不可能是進到立法委員個人私人的帳戶我要再講一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5480.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5507.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
未來就算是說是有這個所謂的讓立法委員門辦公室有一筆經費可以去聘用人力還有就相關的業務經費這也是進到立法委員辦公室他會是一個特殊的帳戶他不會是進到立法委員個人的私人帳戶裡面所以這根本不是自肥的問題我想我今天發言也蠻久的也謝謝周偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5508.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5512.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
給我比較多的時間來釐清一些相關的議題好 那就這樣 謝謝張富米好 謝謝翁小玲委員不過我還是再提醒富米處長一下再看看你們韓院長昨天的新聞稿你們韓院長 我們韓院長不要你們韓院長我們立法院韓院長代表立法院發出的新聞稿是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5532.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5549.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
國會助理是我們立法院的家人提醒各個黨團在修法的時候不能侵害到國會助理的權益我從早上聽到你的回答到現在你就沒有把國會助理當家人好不好 等一下要特別注意一下你們太多插嘴我們接下來請王宏威委員來做詢問王一川你來代理一下 我要 抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5570.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5586.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
王紅花委員好 謝謝主席我們主席老闆要跟主席要抱怨一下沒關係 我先請我們法務部的法治司司長現在是司長好 司長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5591.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5596.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
其實主席離開但是因為這可以做記錄我覺得今天我們的報告應該要有那個應該要有司法院的代表因為今天我們討論助理費相關其實法院也有很重要的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5611.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5632.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我在這邊先針對我們今天的專題報告當然主要是來自於陳一貞委員的提案我認為這個案子就是大家討論了這麼多也引起我們立法院不分各政黨黨派的助理高度的關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5634.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5651.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我個人認為就是未來的這個法案的修法應該秉於兩個原則第一個就是不能夠侵害助理的權益這個是很重要的因為助理剛才我們主席說助理是我們的家人其實助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5652.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5678.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
對於立法委員或者對議員來講他就是我們的夥伴事實上不管是議員或助理他的這個所有他問政也好或者是他在地方的服務也好其實助理很多就是我們的分身所以我們是一個共同體所以不能夠侵害我們助理的這個權益那第二個那個原則應該是公款公用 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5679.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5699.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我覺得這兩大原則是非常重要的但是過去其實十多年來因為有關於助理費 乍領助理費的爭議不斷有人形容說這是歷史共業有人說形容歷史共業所謂共業就是說不管你是哪一個黨派都會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5702.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5720.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
議員或者立委要涉入其中但是為什麼今天一開場我就講說今天應該要有司法院的代表來但是我覺得我想先就一個案例一個案例來就教於我們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5721.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5730.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那就說有關於助理費的制度的設計照理說我們今天不管修法如何怎麼樣修法它應該所謂的一體適用應該是一體適用也許地方的議員的助理費因為它是兩個不同的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5739.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5764.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
但是同一部法律就應該一體適用所以我在這邊要特別提到新竹市長高鴻安的助理費的爭議他的助理費爭議主要是來自於加班費的使用來自於加班費使用他被判重刑7年4個月而且停止了市長的職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5767.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5780.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
因為呢高鴻漢當時當立法委員的時候他的團隊他的團隊的助理呢是來自於我們的監察院前秘書長李敬義秘書長的這個團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5783.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5806.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以高鴻安一直爭議的是他們在他們的辦公室團隊所使用加班費的方式事實上是沿用李俊逸委員當時是李俊逸委員辦公室的方式因為這個案子後來扯出李俊逸 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5808.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5833.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
當時北檢有沒有調查呢北檢是有調查的北檢是有調查的那麼也傳喚了他的助理這個助理叫黃惠文那因為他就是涉及高鴻安這個助理費他的加班費的這個就是依貪污治罪條例他這個不是只有高鴻安被治罪那麼其他的助理老實講那時候我們討論很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5835.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5849.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我印象裡他們其實他們的費用非常非常少但是全部都判刑當然有很多都判了緩刑李俊一這個案子北檢當時確實有分案調查而且傳喚助理到庭說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5850.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5872.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
根據這位助理黃惠文的說法說法他對外的說法他說確實他因為他是在李靜怡辦公室是要用這樣的方式然後到了高鴻安委員的辦公室也用這樣的方式他的方式就是說你你拿到你的加班費然後再回捐再回捐到辦公室由辦公室來做使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5875.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5883.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
高鴻安現在二審即將宣判二審即將宣判但是李靜怡的案子到現在已經32個月32個月沒有下文請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5891.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5904.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
市長像這樣子的案子一個案子已經二審都要宣判了那另外一個類似的案子32個月沒有下文 合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5907.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5932.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
你笑了不是我不是笑我只是說各該案件都有各該案件的事證的問題那我想這個部分來講因為我個人是法治單位那檢查機關他當然本於他的職長都會就是就相關的事證來做一個認定那因為不同的案件事證的不同情況之下可能偵辦的一個過程裡頭就會有時間上頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5938.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5948.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
看起來好像李俊逸這個案子好像特別複雜照理說沒有那麼複雜這應該要回到該個案那我們不會去試射到個案來做討論通常這都是你們的標準答案我還是很有耐心的讓你回答因為這要有記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5957.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5970.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是這個案子所以就難免被外界認為說是不是雙標 你懂我意思嗎高鴻安他有辦 而且呢現在我就說已經到了二審即將宣判 李俊逸將近 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5972.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5994.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
32個月很快的3年就過去了我們也不曉得這個案子第一個到底有沒有在偵辦第二個他到底就是在檢察官新政認為能不能所以我也在講說我們說建立制度很重要但是不管檢調或者是法院他的新政跟他的辦案態度也很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5995.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6006.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
黎智英這案子他的案子也是同樣的也是用他的加班費把他回捐根據這個他的助理的對外也是這樣子公開的講法也是一樣那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6009.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6038.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個案子呢當然我後來再看他這個助理有講他說李俊逸他不管錢他講了一個說李俊逸不管錢好但是無論如何但是無論如何你今天拿了讓助理拿了加班費再回捐出來那李俊逸的案子到底可不可以那沒有道理說這個案子第一個我也不知道他辦的怎麼樣第二個你不然就牽結他你覺得他沒問題你就牽結他你也不牽結 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6039.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6052.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你認為不需要起訴你就不起訴他也可以你不然覺得起訴他那大家就再來那個什麼我想李俊逸自己法律出身對不對他一定會為自己的那個什麼來辯護 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6054.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6076.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
結果什麼都沒有所以這樣子的做法到底OK不OK還是告訴你高鴻安不OK李靜怡就OK所以這個助理費相關的案件為什麼會引起這麼多爭議為什麼會引起這麼多的商標這個是其中之一另外我再特別提到一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6080.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6097.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個因為時間有限我要講一個案例這個案例我也覺得非常扯因為有非常多的助理我剛講藍的綠的白的都有這個案例那其中有一個是台南市議員王家珍的案例我剛講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6099.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6109.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
第一個我們不能傷害助理的權益第二個我們應該公款公用王家珍這個案例呢他的特殊是在什麼地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6110.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6130.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
是在於他因為他有兩個助理可能是積欠卡債還怎麼樣的他會被法院執行所以他有高報其他助理的助理費然後再把其他的助理費再拿來去補助再去補貼給這兩個助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6133.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6154.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個在法官的裁定之下 裁定是很確定他確實是取之於助理 用之於助理他可能拿ABC助理 然後把他的費用再拿給另外兩位他被法院執行 就是因為如果你再報他就是被法院執行 拿不了那麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6155.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6171.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以王嘉珍的例子是他一毛錢他一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡他取之於助理 用之於助理所以後來法院怎麼判他呢法院沒有判他貪污自罪條例但是說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6174.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6195.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
就是偽造文書死公務員登載不實就判他緩刑我想法院也有這個憐憫之心啦他也想說你根本就是沒有你一毛錢都沒有放在自己口袋裡啊所以呢 判他緩刑可是王家珍還是認為要爭自己清白他說我一毛錢都沒有拿我是清白的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6197.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6217.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
他判他緩刑 所以他就沒有去選擇他去繳罰金你要判緩刑 他認為說自己是清白的結果 這個我們那個召委非常清楚結果我們立法院修改了我們的公職人員選罷法說你判緩刑不能參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6222.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6228.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
王嘉生當年因為這個案子他不得成為候選人中選會不讓他登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6230.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6255.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以我要講的 這個源自於一個助理費你以為他乍領助理費 可是法院其實也某個程度法院還他清白 說你沒有乍領所以他根本沒有用貪污治罪條例辦他他就說你其實通通都用在助理身上你是因為認為助理這樣子如果這樣子被法院執行那實在所得太低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6256.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6278.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他用這樣的方式結果呢 判他緩刑當時法院 我在查法官也沒有想到說最後竟然會修一個說緩刑不得參選當時是想要可能想用這種方式這種方式來處理可是這個案子呢就有出現違反這個比例原則的問題所以對王家珍這個議員來說他沒有任何的貪污 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6286.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6305.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
他是公款公用他也維護助理的權益他通通都符合可是最後其結果他竟然被褫奪他被參選的權利所以我今天講了這幾個案例是在這麼多年來很多案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6306.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6327.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
被大家討論說我們現在同樣一個助理費的制度之下會出現這麼多不公平的事情確實出現了這麼多不公平的事情你老實說我剛剛為什麼在講那個說召委應該把法院叫來我們同樣的那個在新北市一位議員應該是周雅玲議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6329.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6333.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
他的狀況是什麼呢都已經確定他有把助理費拿去繳房貸拿去繳什麼社區管理費 八八八 都有可是法院最後怎麼樣認定呢法院說 可是你在這個服務地方什麼等之類的你的公費的支出也很多所以最後也判他緩刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6354.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6367.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
可是他的狀況他跟王家鎮王家鎮是一毛錢都沒有放過自己的口袋裡面但是周雅玲是確實拿去繳錢繳自己的房貸錢繳自己的那個什麼他們從金流通通都查出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6368.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6394.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
但是他後來以說我可能這種什麼紅白帖啊什麼吧啦吧啦就說你這個也有一定的數量就是有點像大水庫理論這個大水庫理論呢在很多的法院有一些法官採取大水庫理論他會給予比較輕的刑度有一些法官根本不採刑只認為你只要你只要沒有公用我就重判 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6396.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6418.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以在這些制度下 所以我覺得因為今天沒有法院的代表來當然有我們法務部 您剛才講說你也沒有辦法什麼救個案但是我要講 就一個加班費 光是一個加班費的制度就出現了一個制度 一個法條 兩個世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6420.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6432.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個就是外界所認為不合理的到現在我都不曉得到底你如果按照那個高鴻安的做法或按照李俊逸的做法到底OK不OK啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6433.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6454.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
不能說不同政黨有不同OK的方式所以我要講就是說我們在整個的修法過程裡面我再重述其實我個人非常重視助理的權益我自己是議員出身我到了立法院我第一件事我是第一個提出幫地方助理加薪法案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6455.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6479.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
立法委員當然後來很多我們跨黨派的很多的立委不管是提出修法或者是支持我自己從地方議會出來那我也真有敢於我們地方議會的助理確實工作量很大但是呢20多年當時我提出來是20幾年從來沒有加薪過所以我提出來幫地方議會的助理加薪那 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6482.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6507.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
當然我剛才講但是我們這種有關於詐領助理費仍然是層出不窮詐領當然是我們社會或者法律所不容但是我在這邊今天的質詢我要提出來就是我們在這樣的一個標準之下就即便我們現在沒有修法的標準之下仍然會有很多不公平的現象這也是我們必須要去努力的一個方向以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6510.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6515.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6528.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6553.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好 謝謝主席有請我們立法院副秘書長副秘書長法務部洪司長洪司長 請審計部副審計長副審計長還有行政總署副組長副組長 請這樣就好好 委員好我想我先回應一下王宏威委員不是說不邀請司法院因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6555.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6570.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這一部法的主管機關就是我們立法院嘛 對不對所以這人要找到對啦那我想先請副秘書長我來念給你聽一下昨天的 今天十號嘛 昨天九號嘛立法院的新聞稿你有看到沒有你怎麼寫 你怎麼寫你簡單講一下 核心新聞稿的核心是什麼權益跟家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6580.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6598.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
對啊 權益跟家人就是國會助理是立法院我們的家人跟我們這個韓院長立法院叫捍衛助理的權益一句話你今天都沒說出來 我覺得這樣很可惜第二個 整部草案 陳委員的草案核心就只有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6600.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6623.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
說兩項 第一所有的助理的薪資 全部變成立法委員薪資的一部分這個法案你應該都看過了嘛 這個就明講嘛那這樣合不合理 社會自由公定但問題是你怎麼會連說 跟韓院長的說法都不一樣 不跟他說第一 最可怕的是什麼 你知道嗎不用核銷 不用檢據最後是什麼 免刑責嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6625.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6646.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
就是除罪話嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你覺得說要尊重立法院這個是立法院韓院長昨天發出來的新聞稿我再給你看三年前三年前2022年12月22號 裴洛西眾議院的議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6647.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6669.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
他去講說他的公開信他說幕僚對眾議院來講的話他的運作不可或缺確保履行我們的立法跟服務選民的職責我們必須盡一切努力留才招募最優秀的人加入身為議長首要任務就是要把最傑出多元背景的人才帶入國會山莊 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6670.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6692.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
人家的陪落詩是這樣說的你們韓國瑜是說 捍衛 捍衛你們副秘書人來這裡教教 蘇財霖 蘇財霖立法院沒關係 稍後通過以後變成新知的一部分 跟我們無關的立法院做出了決定你這個態度就讓我覺得好可怕很可怕 這個是一個副幕僚長你今天代表立法院來我認為這樣子對國會助理來講的話不妙啦 不妙啦我告訴你就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6699.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6725.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這個案子 開國庫的後門把公費變成私帳這些錢 名子名高嘛 你們很清楚嘛來自於老百姓嘛 老百姓會贊成說這些本來該給助理的 全部變立法委員的薪水以前叫做犯罪的 現在都變沒關係啊你立法院副秘書長 你說這樣沒關係 尊重你立法院不好 你不應該介入黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6729.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6758.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
立法院是國家的立法院這個很清楚的嘛這種案件哪有什麼黨派的之爭呢這種案件就是用社會一般正常的眼光去看就知道啦可不可以這樣說我簡單聽你的看法立法院的行政幕僚人員都是嚴守行政中立是嘛 行政中立對阿你總是有你的看法啦你這樣做的態度要怎麼捍衛國會助理你這樣做的態度要怎麼像你們韓國瑜說的助理叫做家人我跟你們講喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6760.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6784.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
立法委員的國會助理都沒有薪水會不會很多助理來 會一堆這個法案通過以後就叫劣幣驅逐良幣欸 我有專欠的人 我來跟你日本人做助理什麼的薪水輸在你立法委員給我的酸 有專欠的人就酸了啊有一堆人說沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6786.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6807.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不要錢我也要你只要給我當你的幕僚當你的助理就好了會變成怎麼樣搞不好立法院是在監督行政部門那如果國會助理到最後是隨便給甚至可以不用錢的一大堆這種助理進入到立法院以後國會監督行政部門的力量崩潰 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6810.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6818.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
第二 變成一個利益交換的地方因為這些不要錢的立法會的國會助理他也必須要養活他自己的家庭啊那大家都亂做啊所以你們都不知道這個法案萬一通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6825.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6844.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
對於整個立法院的運作 還有監督行政部門那個整個制度力道完全崩毀掉以後對整個國家那種可怕的一個影響我今天對你這樣一個態度 我是覺得很可怕的另外 我要來比較一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6846.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6849.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
國會助理本來是立法運作 他們叫做贏武者啦也是國會立法品質的一個軟實力啦你從1992年修法確立助理的薪水直接匯入賬戶以後確立薪資他已經不是對於立法委員的補貼的性質了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6863.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6876.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你說到了1999年2011年編制跟費用逐步去調整加入了加班費跟臨終獎金2025年我們現在的每一位委員辦公室每一位的助理費47萬你如果14個去省 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6879.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6889.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
其實一個助力平均才三萬多啦在台北市的副民事長也很清楚嘛我們三位機關代表也很清楚嘛所以這錢是要怎麼有夠我們想盡辦法要幫這個助理啊看能不能給他提升你現在不是 這個借到出來很可怕 很可怕我剛剛提了裴洛西 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6901.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6910.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
人家美國前眾議院議長佩洛西他講的不是口號他直接用命令他說全國國會助理全職的國會助理薪資不得早於4萬5千美金美國眾議員的薪水是17萬佩洛西的命令是什麼你知道嗎高階助理薪資上限直接拉到21萬2千1百為什麼他敢這樣拉到比國會議員的薪資還要高 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6929.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6953.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
很清楚 他認為是他們這些國會助理對於整個眾議院的一個運作是不可或缺的所以他們想盡辦法努力要留才把最優秀的人要招攬進他們的國會山莊人家做的叫做什麼 改革 人才提升我們現在做的叫做什麼 助理會全部整包交給立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6954.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6964.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
免核銷 免收據 這是哪門子的一個改革啊今天就很可惜啦 今天本來就是秘書長要來草野協商本都你爺爺的 你就很技巧性你就來這裡做稻草人不然來 你也這樣 呵呵啊 義正慈嚴 表達一些態度給你請一下 那不就對了我不忍苛責你 但是我是覺得你那個角色啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6980.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7007.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
沒有搞清楚沒有搞清楚啦所以你們口口聲聲說是關心助理的工作權你們這些都叫做場面化啦這個歷史會給出最公允的評價也會記住是哪一位院長在改革的十字路口上選擇轉身離開啦所以你們這個立法院做這個幕僚我覺得很可惜啦這幕僚長你今天算代表來你看我們界邊的監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7010.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7034.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
隔壁監察院監察委員公費助理一人多少你知道嗎他年薪七十六萬塊月薪六萬三司法院大法官助理依照薪資的折合起薪最低五萬五最高達七萬立法院的三四萬大家在爭執所以草野立委其實立場就算是有差異但都有一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7036.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7052.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
是如何想盡辦法來透過體制內的預算調整實質提升助理的待遇這不同黨派的委員都是這樣想的王鋒威委員也這樣想的你不是 你來就看到這個哎呦 這莊瑞最白的 這民進黨白的我就要趕快站在國民黨這邊你在搞什麼我在跟你審法案你這個態度不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7063.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7083.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
態度不對你們這樣會把整個制度去把它徹底去把它給摧毀掉你不覺得國民黨你很愛那副分子總召說這是一個進步法案你講不出來喔我請你評價一下這部草案進步在什麼地方你告訴我簡單兩句話就好說我阿伯我們給我們行政部門做一個仲裁者 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7084.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7098.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
報告委員 因為今天我們排的是徐委員的法案不是陳委員的法案是嘛 一定表達嘛沒有不對嘛 就是要問你這個嘛不然我不這樣排 你們完全迴避嘛你們連來都不會來嘛 對不對你當作我菜市場 我不知道你在想什麼回應一下委員排我們一定會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7111.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7113.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我告訴你 我是針對整個國會幕僚 國會助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7136.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7147.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
如果說這個草案通過以後 這一些薪資全部變成立法委員薪資的一部分你沒有看法 你算知識份子咧你來做到刮掉大家 欸 都當作沒關係 給那些日本人很大你們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣 可以這樣子喔你後面那些行政部門 至少人家來講話都不會像你們那麼蒼白無力 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7163.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7173.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
人家自己提出各部門他們自己的看法國會助理這部草案國會助理的權益立法院秘書處你們可以沒有看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7176.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7198.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我請你真正表達一下這個部分我想也不是沒有看法這個問題我們其實私底下有在討論過分為兩個部分一個部分是專業的部分一個部分是權益的部分那如果是專業的部分的話我們會參考其他國家或者是我們希望有一個專業培訓認證制度這個也可以提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7199.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7203.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
是啦 我在說錢的部分啦那錢的部分呢 這個早就該做這個是簽到權益嘛那簽到權益因為委員剛才提到我們是一個合一致的機關所以對於酬金的這個增加就像剛剛委員所提到的裴洛西的那個看法一樣其實裴洛西的看法我們也相當認同因為不同的專業這個程度他會有不同的一個酬金的資金是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7224.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7242.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我很樂意聽到你說對於美國前眾議院議長佩洛西她這樣的一個他們的一個作為你們是認同的可是問題你們現在的作為跟這個草案提出來你們的態度完全是相反啦我告訴你這部法案陳委員這部草案過了以後真正核心問題在哪裡除罪話啦 你說我不知道你們都沒態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7249.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7254.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我想酬金的部分好 要怎麼樣去做調整那可以藉由黨產協納方式來做處理現在倒閉了你不覺得現在倒閉嗎跟你想的剛好相反要有立法院秘書處立法院你們今天這個破話亂來到這裡要有立法院的態度回去好好看一下你們昨天發出來的新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7275.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7284.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
再好好看一下2022年人家裴若曦那個公開聲明好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員來來 我們請吳思瑤委員好 謝謝翊川主席好 有請我們張富命 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7306.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7310.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
來 張富美請法務部 司長司長委員好大家早安這哪裡是進步的國會這根本是退回36年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7321.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7336.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
的退步國會所以民進黨反對自肥法案立場非常清楚今天上午有一些他黨的委員在這裡質詢我也非常認真的聆聽我認為這些在野黨的委員沒有人敢直求對決 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7338.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7356.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
他們可能會提到過去哪些案例或者是要扯到民進黨哪些涉案的委員之類的就是沒有人敢針對陳玉珍立委的這一個助理費除罪話國民黨或民眾黨真實的立場是什麼沒有人該表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7357.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7380.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
民進黨非常清楚反對自肥的法案非常清楚現在在我們的三樓有一個讓立委簽署的我們跟國會助理站在一起民進黨的立委我們都具名簽署代表我們負責的責任下一頁今天呢朝野協商成了自肥法案最好的遮羞布了嗎看來就是如此嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7381.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7404.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
從來沒有昨天下班前急急忙忙的也從來沒有看過韓院長這麼認真啊早上九點就要朝野協商的過去朝野協商韓院長大概都是下午的時間然後呢快速的安排一個朝野協商九點鐘好早啊韓院長辛苦了為了護航掩護週萬來要起個大早來朝野協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7405.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7430.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
原來呢周恩來就是可以拿到一個請假單就您來這裡代打了我們來看看今天朝野協商讓我覺得是非常諷刺的一場協商說是要挺年輕人你們都說國會助理是我們的家人結果呢今天協商要反年改 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7431.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7456.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
把現在限職公務人員未來可能領不到退休金的這個風險就是要強行通過了讓可能造成年改基金破產7000億的缺口要全民買單對我們跨世代的年輕世代哪裡公平這是第一個反年改的議案今天要協商 因為明天就要表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7458.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7473.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
然後呢更離譜的民眾黨最近因為有委員逼迫立委啊對不起逼迫助理們可能去撤遷了相關的反自肥的法案所以呢哎呦趕緊的又沒收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7474.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7490.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
黨團協商林怡景召委的權限青年基本法現在法案委員會完成審查正在進行教育委員會林怡景召委他依程序要進行的黨團協商也在努力安排也在溝通爭議的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7491.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7512.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是呢韓院長突然這麼勇於認識耶早上九點起個大早要協商趕快沒收了林怡瑾 昭偉還沒排的黨團協商居然韓院長要越組太刨先來進行青年基本法的協商我覺得光看今天的協商的這一個通知我就覺得非常的諷刺啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7514.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7527.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
反年改就是踐踏世代正義然後讓周恩來拿到了一個嫁單不敢來這裡直球對決這個自肥的法案就是傷害我們國會助理的工作權利更踐踏了我們的國會問政的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7530.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7557.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
然後呢排了一個青年基本法我看了實在非常生氣青年基本法吳斯堯是全立法院第一個提出法案催生的立委我從上一屆就提出了我還在努力的催生他爭議的條文我不放棄的去溝通跨黨派的委員我希望青年基本法大家是在共識的狀況之下挺青年不要用表決的方式來通過所以我們還在努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7558.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7578.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
可是今天的朝野協商反年改踐踏世代正義挺自肥傷害國會助理的工作權益然後呢擺了一個要催生青年基本法我覺得這根本就是好虛偽喔你們立法委員這些大人們看在年輕世代的眼裡好虛偽喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7579.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7602.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
如果是挺青年的就業權工作權生存權怎麼會去反年改呢怎麼會去挺陳玉珍的這個法案周恩來今天不敢來這裡直球對決呢我是非常的怒不可一啊把青年基本法這一個正向的法案居然跟反年改跟挺自肥綁在一起立法院太丟臉了下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7605.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7634.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
您剛剛沒有回答喔剛剛莊瑞雄教委一直在cue您喔助理費除罪化的修法哪裡進步哪裡進步您沒有回答我要不要再給您一點時間你要不要來回答教委員因為今天真的沒有去研究到陳委員的一個法案的實質的內容那你們不是非常過分嗎立法院吵得這麼沸沸揚揚的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7636.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7653.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你們說你們沒有去研究來到這裡還要混今天排的是徐委員的那個草案所以我們就徐委員的草案那我現在問你啊徐委員是很進步等一下我會跟您談他的法案內容那陳玉珍委員的法案哪裡進步哪裡進步你答不出來你不敢答因為這個部分我們尊重個別委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7664.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7676.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
對 這就是你們的立場韓國瑜院長講得好聽任何修法都不該來侵害助理的工作權但是下一頁你們今天的報告寫得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7677.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7694.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
公費助理的聆聘、解聘、聘用資格、薪資、工作內容、拆勤管理、各項人事管理都是雇主立委的權責你們立法院只負責行政的協助所以說 自己沒地貸啦 立委的事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7695.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7723.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
剛剛王逸川問得非常好啊如果這個立委他沒有請半個助理請問你的助理費是不是還要撥款給立委您再回答一次是不是要撥款會如何進行如果這位立委你明知他沒有請半個助理那這筆錢你怎麼做行政處理我想這個部分是公款公用啦有聘助理我們再撥款啦應該是這樣的法理啦你說什麼 再說一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7724.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7747.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我想國家的錢嘛 公款就是公用啦那有聘助理當然就有撥啦那沒有聘助理理解上應該是不可以啦那您剛剛回答王逸川委員的說法你自己馬上打臉自己囉您剛剛回答王逸川的是說你依法還是要撥款那現在好 您再回答你可以更正沒有關係如果這一個助理這個立委沒有聘任任何助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7748.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7772.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
然後他每個月的這個助理費是零啊因為陳玉珍的法案是鬆綁了所有的下限上限的人數嘛那你的每個月四五十萬的助理費是不是依舊撥款您再嚴謹的回答一次我剛剛回答的跟現在沒有違背啦我剛剛回答的是說如果我們的法律是這樣的規定這樣通過的話那它就是一個統籌運用的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7773.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7799.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好那你又回答刚刚就没有所谓的那我听懂了您的意思确实就是陈玉珍要除罪话他的提案的核心要指助理费就是立法委员实质薪资之一部分立法委员对此一补助费之运用自有完全的处分权限其运用范畴不以助理费为限这是他的提案说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7800.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7821.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我想委員誤會啦 我沒有去做我沒有去就陳委員的草案來做任何的分析你這樣繞來繞去那你到底撥不撥款看他法律怎麼規定我們怎麼處理啦應該是這樣所以現在的法律是沒有陳玉珍這個惡法啊如果這個惡法過了你就是得撥款了不是嗎是不是就是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7826.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7832.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個就是我剛剛所回答那個依法執行就是這樣子所以這是讓大家大吃一驚啊我們來看最後一頁喔進富二讀那一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7839.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7867.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我是覺得這件事情除了是助理的工作權勞動權益之外這更是國會專業問政的提升我們的助理費就像剛剛Pelosi的那個議案就是要提升我們的合理的薪資可以去聘任到專業的人他願意投入公共事務他願意來為國家的立法修法為國家的預算把關來進行最好的一個公共服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7868.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7878.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以他必須有合理的待遇但是呢現在的立法院不需要專業了我說真的不需要專業了在你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7880.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7896.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
偉大的韓國瑜院長 周外來秘書長的領導之下搭配藍白主導法案不用審啊 禁負二讀就好啊委員會的專業討論算什麼完全都不需要委員會的討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7898.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7925.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
如果有委員會的討論就像年改翁小玲讓我們用一天的時間來討論年改2017年是花了一整年社會討論年金改革2025年用委員會各一天的時間每個立委只有三分鐘翁小玲說她要嚴格限制委員的發言時間因為翁小玲認為充分的討論是不需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7927.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7948.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個還是有交付委員會審查的議案 每個委員三分鐘我當立委 也三任了我過去當任國會助理 二十多年前我從來沒有看過這麼好混的立法院委員會每個委員只要三分鐘 請他坐下來就好了不需要專業 不需要準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7949.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7965.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
然後呢更多數的議案是禁覆二讀委員會close只要立委會表決就好如果立委只是會表決就好表決的工具真的不需要太專業的問政募聊了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7966.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7981.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這是我現在最痛心立法院制度決定立法院的社會形象制度的運行來決定我們國會的問政是提升還是退化 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7982.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8004.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
如果凡是用禁負二讀的方式我這裡列出來啦從公投綁大選政黨的這個救國團條例離島建設條例為中國起產地才化法國民黨版一年搬走國家1.4兆包括這個光電四法一次的扼殺了能源轉型包括法庭直播草率上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8005.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8033.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
包括呢 癱瘓憲法法庭包括公職人員選罷法 沒收了罷免權這些全部是禁覆二讀委我們的助理每天為了我們在這裡質詢 上質詢台要非常認真的收集資料但是現在立法院如果制度是退化成這樣當然啊 陳玉珍也許就是這種制度下 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8035.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8061.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
的想當然而助理請那麼多幹嘛立委拿來花就好了也不太需要助理了因為不需要專業討論了全部都盡夫而讀立委只要會表決就好現在的立法院真的是專業最淪喪的時刻最後的時間你們今天的這個報告我還是覺得非常的遺憾我們看許智傑的那兩頁什麼是進步性的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8064.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8079.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
許智傑委員提的公費助理的任用法在資訊透明的部分薪資機制要給予必要的調整而且鼓勵久任跟專業深化的資深專業家級他更進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8080.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8099.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
也要確保助理執行職務如果遭逢危險的人身安全也給予助理的健檢的健檢的權利還有呢如果非自願離職也要提供必要的勞動權益的保障以及要提供立法院助理團隊必要的訓練制度下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8100.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8111.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
還有助理需要有保密的義務助理需要做到利益衝突的迴避連結義務的進行助理也要反滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8112.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8135.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
助理也需要限定選轉門條款助理如果有不法的行為也應當啟動懲戒的機制什麼是進步的法案這才是進步的法案立法院要自律要克責才是全責相扶而不是一再的自肥一再的自我圖利 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8137.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8149.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那就是擴權 如此而已什麼是進步的法案 請參考民進黨立委的提案兩相比較 高下立判辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝吳思堯委員接下來請陳秀寶委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8164.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8167.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝主席請本院張副秘書長及勞動部理專門委員來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8178.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8203.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
副秘書長 先請教您陳一貞委員提案的立法院組織法第32條第33條第35條條文修正草案將公費助理的公費兩次刪除也刪除聘用助理人數上下限的限定又將立委助理費及辦公事務預算等等直接撥以在立委的統籌運用而且免檢據核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8206.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8225.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
秘書長您是法律系的兼任助理教授我想請教您這是進步的修法嗎當然剛才有委員問了你好像也不太好意思回答那沒關係我也不為難你但我想知道您覺得這樣子的修法是能夠保障國會助理工作的權益嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8226.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8254.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這樣的修法我們修法之後我們的助理還能適用勞動基準法嗎那免卷據核銷可以確保我們助理領到的是他應得的薪資嗎您覺得謝謝委員我想立法院及院長都非常重視我們助理的權益行政幕僚人員本於行政中立原則也不適合也不能夠評估任何委員的提案來沒關係來我請教一下那個李專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8255.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8272.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
公費助理適用勞基法但是如果未來改為委員自聘助理也且不用提供助理名冊那這樣的助理還能適用勞基法嗎助理會變成是民法的雇傭契約嗎他的薪資勞保勞退的權益還能受到保障嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8276.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8298.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
在勞基法裡面它其實就是看有沒有成立雇傭關係那當然勞基法不會去處理要不要提供助理名冊的這件事情我們其實就是看實際上有沒有聘僱那如果有成立聘僱關係的話在勞基法上所有的權利助理們應該要得到的權利還有勞基法規定的事項其實都要符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8299.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8319.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好 謝謝專委那我在這邊還是要做一個澄清這一次助理要求撤回法案的這個連署有媒體報導是有派系是由政國會發起的這不是事實我在這邊真的要特別的澄清避免以訛傳訛雖然發起是我的助理我到中心校才知道他們不敢讓我知道怕我有壓力也怕我反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8319.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8334.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
但我知道之後我鼓勵他們支持他們要自主決定我也跟他說你要跟你們的助理夥伴們你們一起站出來因為這是你們的權益如果你們自己都不發聲我該怎麼替你們做我該為你們做什麼但是我有嚴格的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8335.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8351.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
就是連署的助理的個資不能外洩絕對不行所以他們後來給出來的資料是有做模糊處理的那我想請問副秘書長如果連署的助理有遭到秋後算賬明年不被續聘那立法院能不能保障他們的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8354.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8368.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我想這是一個假設性的問題不適合在這個地方做答案因為當然我們也知道說媒體有報導有那個來簽了之後又被迫撤簽的那也有辦公室是阻止他們的助理來簽的這樣的狀況其實你都一直說你們行政中立不好說 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8370.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8397.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
而本席認為如果嚴重的強害國家助理的國會助理的正當權益的法案一旦立法完成這麼多年好不容易爭取來的國會助理的相關的制度這些福利 這些保障包括他們的職位尊嚴都會被破壞未來我們的立法權能夠有效監督行政制衡行政的這個能力也會受到波及最後影響的就是人民的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8400.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8416.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
另外我這邊要提一下過去福建金門地檢署曾經發函來立法院要求回覆立法院編列之公費助理費是否得由委員統籌支付之用當時的立法院秘書長以台立 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8417.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8446.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
願人字第097003623號回覆本院委員公會助理由委員自行聘任其雇主為委員本院警隊其應聘人數及酬金總額是否有合法定人數及限額內作審核其餘事項非本院所問表示他們不同意可以由委員統籌之用那麼請問副秘書長現在您的立場是改變的嗎是支持由委員統籌之用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8447.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8476.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我想當時的這個發函是人事處在主辦可不可以請人事處來做回應所以你們不反對我們沒有辦法做這個部分的一個回應那草案的說明也提到說免提供助理名冊表示助理是變成由公家助理變成私人助理那我想請問副秘書長怎麼樣確定這個誰是助理無法確定誰是助理的時候那怎麼來管制他們進出立法院的安全維護工作你要怎麼做要怎麼管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8479.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8485.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
報告委員 其實我也在法治局待過所以說法治局的同仁沒有就任何委員的提案做過評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8488.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8506.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我知道你們現在就是你就是來這邊你覺得說委員問了什麼你就用你們很公式化的很官方的這樣說法來回答但是整個影響整個立法院的運作現在全部的助理都非常的焦慮包括我知道有藍營辦公室的助理們就覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8508.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8524.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
他们很想签不能签因为他的老板说不能签他们觉得非常非常的为难他们想要站出来捍卫自己的权益可是他们不能做整个立法院为了这个事情整个沸沸扬扬你今天跟我说我们不好说这个我们不能说这个我们不能决定这个我们不能做 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8526.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8553.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
好 韓院長前天有發聲明指出立法院尊重每一任委員的提案權身為立法院院長會全力捍衛國會助理的權益並且告訴每一個黨團任何修法都不該侵害國會助理工作權益包括工作權 待遇 福利以及各項法定的必要保障那我想請問副秘書長您覺得院長這樣的聲明是不是他也覺得陳昕臻委員的提案這個已經侵害到國會助理的工作權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8555.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8580.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
这个部分我想我无权发表个人的评论立法院是一个合议制我想请问你院长有说他会告诉每一个党团任何一个修法都不应该侵害国会助理的工作权益那么已经有告诉每一个党团了吗或是有指派秘书长或是您副秘书长去告诉每一个党团了吗就我的部分是没有至于其他部分我不清楚所以都没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8581.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8604.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那既然院長已經發了這樣的聲明是不是請副秘書長您轉告秘書長也轉告韓院長提醒他他已經發了這樣的聲明了請趕快去親自告訴每個黨團並且溝通不要等木已成舟了就拉不回來了我們已經立院的助理委員助理是我們最親密的我們作戰的夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8604.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8625.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
有一些助理的年資比我們都還要資深他們進來立法院這麼久對整個的議事運作對整個的質詢對整個的議事的規則他們都比我們還要清楚所以我進到立法院來我非常尊重我的助理他們很多事情比我們都還要了解他們經過這麼多年的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8627.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8646.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
才建立了這樣的制度才有這樣的保障才有這樣的福利雖然不是滿分我覺得大概有80分但現在你要把它打回去連及格的邊緣都沒有我覺得對助理真的是非常的不公平那好吧我的時間也到了我可以借一點時間嗎我想要問主計處主計總處的陳副主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8656.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8677.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
請問副主席長如果陳一貞委員這個法案通過之後統籌運用這個預算要用什麼科目來編列對就是說這個就是一個重點就是說如果我們現在界定的就是說是一個就是助理的薪資的概念跟未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8678.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8704.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
把它界定成是一個補助立委的概念它的本質就會產生改變所以如果是補助的概念的話那它到底是用在人事費還是其他的業務費它產生了自主的空間那如果沒有相關的配套的話是不是真的會未來會用在這個公費的助理上就會產生一個模糊的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8705.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8732.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以對於未來是不是真的就是說它本質如果是一個補助的概念以後就必須要看未來立法院在執行這個補助的時候它的配套的要求所以以主計總處來講現在的公費助理的這個費用呢是編列在第三款立法院主管第一項立法院第二幕委員問政業務第二節公費助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8732.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8758.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
是編在這裡就是目前非常明確是一個人是非的概念那未來如果是統籌運用的那未來如果是補助的概念它的本質就會產生改變而且助理的人數沒有上下限的規定會不會有人超高薪有人領低薪然後免減拒核銷我們真的沒有辦法確保我們的助理是能夠拿到他應得的這個酬金享有他該有的福利跟權益是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8758.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8776.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
等於說這個法的未接我們就沒有辦法看出來他相關的控管的機制就必須假設法的未接不明確那未來的配套怎麼樣去處理這個公費助理薪資的部分就有待就是說立法院未來在配套必須去強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8778.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8791.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝謝謝副主席長我還是要再告訴一下副秘書長回去一定要轉達秘書長再轉達韓院長請好好跟每個黨團告知我們不可以損害侵害到國會助理的權益以上謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8793.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8819.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 謝謝這個比較可惜今天是 你看這個行政部門只要首長一站在備詢台那麼多幕僚單位一定火力支援我們即使立法院今天不只是副秘書長來我們看法治局局長 人事處處長 主計處處長即使你們都有來也可以提供一下你們副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8820.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8837.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
必要火力上的一個資源這一部法令陳委員所提出這樣的一個立法院組織法裡面主管機關本來就是立法院本來就是立法院這再次來做一個說明所以哪有可能說你們都沒有態度接下來請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員沒來請陳培宇委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8850.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8861.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
好 謝謝主席那我要請立法院的副秘書長還有立法院的法治局局長請副秘書長還有法治局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8862.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8886.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
來 委員好好 兩位我想要就剛剛副秘書長您的答覆我們接下來往下問剛剛王逸川委員問了然後吳思耀委員也問了如果有人沒有請助理那你們錢要不要撥給他那你的說法呢一下說有研究一下說只是看過一下我已經不知道你的說法到底是什麼但我認為你很為難因為你其實上面有長官我也知道你撥好多說那我來舉一個例子什麼樣的委員膽敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8890.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8903.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
覺得自己了不起偉大到不需要請助理然後還來拿這個錢我試想了一下有誰敢這麼大膽那我就用一般公民社會對於立法委員的想像來說我手上有一張呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8905.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8929.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這些是被工都盟按照實際的數據統計出來的不來質詢的委員他們的工作表現光是基本的質詢就不來他就算翻翻報紙當天來問新聞都好但是他來都不來這些人就很有可能不請助理然後來當立法委員我來唸一下名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8931.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8941.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
黃建斌 林倩琦 圖全吉盧憲一 張志倫 林佩翔謝龍介 顏寬恆 丁學中 麥玉珍倒數第十 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8943.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8970.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
光是質詢提法案提預算做都不做來都不來而這些人就很有可能符合我們剛剛的假設因為你剛剛說你不回答假設性問題但我還是要問假設這些委員覺得自己了不起只要選上了反正預算呢公民也看不懂法案審查一般人也看不懂然後呢有沒有上電視被發現有沒有質詢也沒有人在意反正他就當一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8972.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8977.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
領700多萬的陽春立委這樣的人你們也要撥款給他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8979.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9003.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
謝謝委員 我無權發表個人的評論你無權發表喔 所以我要問我們立法院的錢是人民的納稅錢就直接會匯入這些委員的私人帳戶嗎我要再問一次 會匯入私人帳戶嗎因為剛剛有委員問嘛 這個錢不會進入私人帳戶那我就問 不進私人帳戶 那我陳培瑜擔任立委期間我要怎麼拿到這筆錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9006.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9020.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
如果委員想要了解的是現在目前的一個撥款狀況我當然知道現在的狀況我們在針對陳玉珍委員的提案跟您討論那這個部分是陳玉珍委員的提案我們實在不適合就評論好 沒關係您隔壁是法治局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9022.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9040.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
在今年114年你們出了一個報告報告的名字沒有訊號沒關係我直接說報告的名字叫做各國國會公費助理之比較研究監論立法委員聘任公費助理相關法治問題研究分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9042.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9060.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
出這個報告的是法治局的郭明正也就是您本人還有陳偉佑114年3月請問您還記得這個報告嗎我知道在報告裡面你們有一段話讓我看了瞠目結舌原來立法院的幕僚單位可以指導司法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9061.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9067.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你覺得你有這麼大嗎我念給你聽喔我對您的懷疑是你身為立法院的幕僚機關你竟然可以指導司法機關我們等一下法務部來說一說他們的立場但在那之前我要先聽一聽您的立場你覺得你比司法機關還要大你的報告是這麼說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9082.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9109.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
你說目前國會的公費治理制度呢採寬鬆管理用人彈性的規定司法檢調機關云影在尊重立法機關的國會自律範圍內限縮相關違法性調查之偵查審判範圍你要不要自己用白話文解釋一下這句話什麼意思你對全國人民說你這句話什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9111.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9130.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
叫司法機關說我們立法委員就是要給彈性給空間給好給滿你們司法機關在調查這些立法委員的時候要放寬彈性放好放滿然後相關的違法偵查審判範圍你們司法機關少說一點少管一點是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9131.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9150.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們做這一份報告是給我們委員做參考給我們委員做參考所以你的意思是陳玉珍看了你這個參考之後覺得我撿到寶了我按照你們的建議我來做出強害公費助理權益的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9151.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9166.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我沒辦法揣測陳一正委員的提案我們都會尊重委員的提案那我可以問你嗎請問法治局做各式各樣的報告都是因著法案法案的提案而來對不對或者是針對相關社會輿情討論或者是你們覺得重要的議題是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9168.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9188.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
根本上我們是立法院的幕僚我們是協助立法院做問政的參訪我們收集各國的相關文獻來做這樣的專案很好 你自己都說了你是立法院的幕僚機關你為什麼會寫出這個結論你為什麼覺得你可以指導司法機關做出這個限縮範圍的討論跟偵查範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9191.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9209.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你說我指導司法機關這個太沉重我沒有指導是嗎你的寫法看起來就像指導司法機關我們是建議而已建議對我們是建議好那請問你這個建議的基礎跟背景是因為你覺得有非常多立法委員或是基層民意代表在相關助理費上有產生很多爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9210.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9230.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以你認為你要積極的幫這些立法委員跟民意代表爭取更大的空間來使用這個助理費你是這個意思嗎我們這部的報告都有前後的邏輯好我讓你說你的邏輯是什麼如果說要這樣子我是不是要全部把它念過一遍我不用你全部問因為這個全部都有上網公開但我就問 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9231.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9245.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那這一句關於指導司法機關的你怎麼說所以人家才會說陳玉珍的修法在除罪話陳玉珍的修法是要自肥啊那你怎麼看好 身為法治局那我現在就問你針對陳玉珍委員的提案你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9247.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9273.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
跟委員報委員的提案只是提出來然後大家討論 其他委員也都可以提案大家討論 那太好了 我們來討論一下都尊重委員的提案來 局長我問一下你怎麼看陳玉珍的提案 我們現在來討論我的看法就是這樣 我跟你討論我的看法很簡單民意代表不可以壓榨國會助理剛剛所有委員都說了不管支不支持這個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9274.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9292.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
你應該可以看得出來如果立法委員沒有國會助理的幫忙請問我們的質詢我們的法案我們的預算審查我們的選民服務我們所有跟專家學者民間團體的討論甚至是我們所有今天每一天在立法院所發生的事情都需要國會助理不是嗎而當國會助理的錢全部都要打包給立法委員是人民納稅的錢在這裡劃的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9300.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9316.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
每一年8.5億的錢全部打包給113個立法委員然後造成一種私吞公帑的狀況然後還不用單據我就不知道問不用單據要怎麼核銷我都不想問後面的主計之類的我就問怎麼核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9319.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9335.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
然後這些錢還不是只有立法委員還有議員的部分陳玉珍這一次修法更殘忍的是他把地方議員的部分一起提進來的也就是說陳玉珍他他認為他是做好人他私下跟我聊天說他在做好人他在救很多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9336.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9366.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好人做到滿不是只有中央的民意代表連地方議員的助理費一併提案而那個費用來到29.8億所以全台灣人的納稅錢每年將近40億全部直接打包給民意代表放進他的私人賬戶問號因為剛你們也沒有解釋清楚到底要放哪裡去然後這些錢不用單據核銷不用公開透明不用跟國人報告這些錢用到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9368.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9371.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這就是陳玉珍修法的現況身為法治局的專業 你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9375.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9401.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
跟委員報告我是第三屆就進來立法院我在立法院將近大概滿30年太好了我也認識很多公會助理其實我的內心是覺得委員跟助理是一個很緊密的關係太好了 內心這一段多講一點現在目前的一些我也認識很多很優秀的助理是對 這些助理對委員的問政其實幫很多所以我們都一直希望超熱 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9402.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9427.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
保障助理的角度因為這是委員的提案這個工會助理的事務這個業務不是我們法律裡辦相關的執行細節真的要問人事單位我在立法院將近30年我看到很多委員的助理都非常的優秀協助委員的問政我覺得現在目前對助理制度的保障我是覺得還是不大夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9428.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9448.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
大聲一點來因為你剛剛戴口罩剛剛這段話拜託你重複一遍根據你的內心話你認為光是現在的制度對於現任的公費助理保障都已經不夠了對不對對我對不對我再問一次對不對我是蠻贊同我們院長講的就是說應該這個委員跟助理是一個國會的一個核心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9449.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9473.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
領域 我們一起來共同維護立法權太好了 我們今天總算聽到您的真心話剛都沒有委員叫你上來但我就很想聽真心話謝謝你用30年的經驗告訴這些提案的委員到現在還不肯撤案的委員我們來看下一張 哪些人我們先直接跳下一張這些人我不要為難你 我幫你唸 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9478.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9498.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
提案人陳玉珍不管是立法院組織法或是地方民意代表費用連署的人這些人還想出來選縣市首長當他們在當民意代表的時候就已經決定這樣苛刻自己的助理我難以想像這些人當上地方首長之後他會如何對待他的幕僚如何對待他每天幫他賣命付出 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9499.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9528.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
的人林思敏要選舉蘇清泉可能也要選舉盧憲一鄭振前丁薛忠高進素美陳雪生邱振軍洪孟凱黃仁鄭天才馬文君謝龍介呂玉玲邱若驊陳超明徐宇珍游皓葛如君翁曉琳廖先祥羅明才林倩琪徐欣盈楊瓊英林德福張家俊 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9529.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9557.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
委員的名字都在上面了我幫你念完了我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍你要不要撤案請你趕快做出說明不要說出模擬兩可的話甚至還打算摸頭公費助理還有助理公會的幹部說可以討論但不撤案我沒有辦法接受這個說法第二我也想要公開呼籲這些委員你們可以撤簽 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9558.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9576.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
當然現在因為已經送到委員會了撤簽必須要提案委員的認可所以我不知道陳玉珍會不會施壓給這些簽名的委員不讓他們撤簽但我認為不論是撤案或是撤簽都是所謂的回頭試案 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9578.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9606.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
不要再讓公費助理承受更多不公平的對待而陳玉珍甚至還荒謬跟傅坤祺說這是進步法案我就問哪裡進步他們還說美國都是這樣來我請教您在您的報告當中有研究到各國的法制對嗎你要不要告訴我在美國所謂的一大包打包給國會議員相關的配套是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9608.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9623.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
你可以告訴我嗎可以請您說明嗎 在您的報告裡面你不用照念 你只要大概告訴我因為陳玉珍跟傅昆奇一直在對外瞎講說美國也是這樣做的我其實有研究我也可以說 但我想聽聽您的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9625.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9645.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
因為美國是一個總統制的國家其實我們現在的公會助理的主要制度是模仿美國的制度我們這邊的收集的文獻資料現在美國的眾議院他的助理他全職 最多可以聘到18人 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9647.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9665.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
他的全職至多可以聘到18人是全職至多聘到18人那費用是怎麼給的他的費用我們做一個統計在2022年這邊的費用他眾議員他的助理的費用我們平均大概是17.9萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9668.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9689.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那怎麼給的嗎 給助理還是給老闆 給國會議員他那個也是一個給眾議員一個統籌去分配的那個概念給了這個統籌之後可是他要負擔據負擔據太好了 要負擔據除此之外呢我是說美國這邊美國對我說美國負擔據大概就這樣子 他要負擔據 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9693.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9719.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
然後如果沒有用完呢公開報表要公開報表太好了負擔據公開報表還有呢如果沒有用完呢這邊是因為它是一個給中研統籌的概念好 那我來解釋一下意思就是說你的研究跟我查到資料是一樣的一 所有的國會議員拿到這一大包我剛剛說的每一個人一年拿到多少錢拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9721.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9741.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
700多萬嘛 按照你們現在的預算表17.9萬沒有 我說我們台灣啦每一個立法委員如果按照陳玉珍這個提案修法之後我們每一個人會拿到700多萬然後呢 這個統包如果用到美國現在的配套一 他要有單據核銷二 相關的單據核銷必須要上網公開透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9742.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9766.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
讓全民可以檢視得以向納稅人報告所以不是你立法委員要怎麼用就怎麼用這個叫做所謂的配套可是在我們台灣的立法院可能會有一個荒謬的狀況你聽聽看因為之前在提法院直播的時候相關的配套羅志強跟黃國昌就說你們司法院可以去訂配套結果訂了配套之後他們又不高興又要給人家翻桌又要給人家翻案然後又要修法所以連配套他們不滿意都可以修立法委員這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9771.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9782.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
大道可以提一個自肥的法案 然後相關的配套不滿意 又可以翻桌所以我現在公開呼籲陳玉珍 傅坤祺 請你們停止撤回這樣的法案 最後我要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9784.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9800.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
有人標榜自己是清新的立委有人標榜自己是了不起的立委有一個人叫黃國昌在第十一屆工都盟給予的這個承諾書裡面第十一屆立委國會改革承諾書黃國昌很了不起的在政下方簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9801.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9828.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
其中有一條叫做什麼呢叫做積極訂定國會助理專法明定助理地位職責聘用資格權力保障等規定杜絕詐領及挪用助理費用很好黃國昌你簽名了但很可惜我在黃委員今天的質詢當中沒有聽到他對這件事情的表態甚至今天所有在野黨的委員上台質詢也都沒有對陳玉珍的法案有所表態我要說非常的遺憾我希望這些委員不要成為幫兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9829.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9852.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
曾經簽過這張公開承諾書的黃國昌也不要忘記了你對國人的承諾對自己的承諾我也希望法治局跟副秘書長你們一定要秉持幕僚的專業跟良心讓你們的院長有最好的建議讓他有機會去跟陳玉珍 傅坤祺提出撤案跟撤簽 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員那我們因為今天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9860.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9881.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個一樓 我們韓院長今天 還有我們院長召集了朝野協商針對114年中央政府他的附屬單位他的這個整個預算 他的一個綜合表 總計還有選罷法 還有年金 還有青年基本法所以我看 每一位委員 我剛剛看宗家兵委員這樣照照照 照到川伯伯 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9883.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9910.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這讓我們今天的會議進行會很困難因為變成說各個委員會裡面今天幾乎都是朝野協商這個是一個重頭戲所以很多委員登記的或者說沒有到場的我們也都必須要體諒他們我們也必須要體諒這些官員們現在先休息五分鐘好不好五分鐘讓大家上一下洗手間你休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10215.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10235.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請諮詢委員張雅玲 張雅玲委員不在范雲 范雲委員不在沈發慧 沈發慧委員不在接下來請鍾嘉斌委員來做懸檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10240.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10253.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
主席 財長委員先進列席的政府機關署長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生而我們首先還是要邀請包括法務部的洪司長然後我們這個主計總處的陳副主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10256.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10282.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
副主席長我們立法院的張副秘書長張副秘以及法治局的郭局長郭局長好 首先我先請教一下張副秘書長過去你曾經在立法院擔任過秘書長以外的職務嗎法治局法治局很好那麼你擔任過未來有可能當秘書長所以要了解一下秘書長的工作我請教一下秘書長有要參與到朝野協商議程的制定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10284.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10308.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
或者你需不需要參與就你所知有沒有就我所知的話如果院長認為他需要參加應該就必須要參加所以今天兩件事情我們的秘書長說今天院長九點排朝野協商討論的議題都涉及到司法法治委員會跟教育委員會明知這兩個委員會今天有會議但是他說他個人沒有參與到這些議題的責定 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10309.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10332.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以他不曉得這不是議程不是他排的9點開會要討論那些議題跟我們兩個會衝堂不是他的原因你認可這樣的談話嗎我無權發表對 你無權發表好 但是你也提到了如果祕書長如果院長要他去參與朝野議場他就要去對不對那本委員會審到立法院的法案有沒有義務要來這邊列席備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10336.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10356.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
英法應該是要不過因為主席已經准假了所以我這邊就不再追究了我要說明的是我們一個媽保秘書長為了不敢來這裡備詢還特別讓我們院長排朝野協商故意跟這裡充堂小朋友不想上學又怕被寄礦客拜託爸爸媽媽給他出一張去醫院的請假單實在是丟臉了好 開始來問來 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10361.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10374.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我們新聞下捍衛助理權益我們立委絕不出席我想這個大家就清楚看到了在下一張我們來看補助私房錢的話我先來請教一下副主席長陳副主席長主席長補助款在我們的政府預算科目它需不需要檢據核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10382.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10403.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
就是依照我們會計法的規定就是我們還是必須要有原始憑證對所以如果要免除檢據平銷檢據核銷一定要定在法律把它豁免掉對不對如果沒有頂這一條補助費如果一般要我們來邊預算邊要補助款是不是都會要求要檢據核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10404.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10427.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
就是说会要求减拒原始凭证这个拒就是说这个简单讲啦如果法律没有写免减拒核销假如法律没有写特别标注不用减拒核销的话你们组织的作业补助款会不会要求要提供原始凭证我们不论只要公款都要原始凭证很好谢谢来副审计长对不起请副审计长上来李副审计长 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10431.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10454.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
請問一下如果今天政府預算編的是補助款等到你們審計的時候你們發現他沒有付原始憑證你們會准嗎都是要付原始如果沒有付的話只是那個包委員就是如果主委總署最對特別的個別的科目他有時候可以簡化那個原始憑證簡化但是還有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10455.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10471.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
特別在法律裡面排除一般補助款必須要付原始憑證以便我們的主計跟審計作業把它排除就是想做壞事啦簡單講是這樣子啦如果沒有打算做壞事何必排除我們法律的一般適用呢好 謝謝兩位來 我們來看一下我們來問法治局局長上一頁 上一頁 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10480.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10500.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這裡面修正條文說本來立法委員的公費助理是8到14人改為若干人請問若干人是幾人若干人是幾個人我是問你嘛 若干人幾個人若干嘛 一般實務上一個算不算若干人一個算不算若干人 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10501.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10526.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
他还是包括在若干人好 一个包括在若干人100个包括在若干人当中100个有没有包括在若干人当中法理文字 你是法治局局长啊包括嘛 对不对大声的说有没有包括100个到100个都是一个到100个都是若干人嘛他是一个抽象的法律概念对 一个抽象法律概念一个到100个都是所以这样的修法立法委员可以拼多少他可以拼100个助理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10528.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10550.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
200個助理 若干人可是這個助理是不是便當助理是不是要他支付費用 沒有寫沒有寫 他責治助理多少人然後有委員聘用 要不要付錢也沒寫然後原條文是寫說治公費助理8到14人很清楚這些助理是領責的錢公費助理領責的錢 是不是領你的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10552.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10577.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
是領國家的錢對不對是領國家的錢 立法院的預算對不對現在你們這樣改成助理若干人這個助理由委員聘用需不需要領公立法院的預算這個不是我們改的啦我不是問你嘛 我說改了之後會怎麼樣嘛這個公會助理要問人事處不是啦 我是說你是法治局嘛如果條文這樣寫助理若干人由委員聘用他的薪水會不會是立法院付 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10579.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10600.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
會不會是立法院務有嗎 有寫嗎他是補助各委員立法院預算編給委員假如說沒有公費助理了要新的修正條文寫委員聘用助理沒有寫是公費那立委這些助理跟誰領錢沒有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10602.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10627.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
立法院編的預算是給誰 給委員 寫得明明白白嘛所以這些人員到底是親朋好友 黑道還是境外勢力他有沒有遵守勞基法 你們也管不到 對不對 聘用助理你們現在的公費助理 立法院是不是雇主針對委員聘哪些助理 我們目前當然也沒辦法管啦不是 聘用權在他啦 你們報上來有沒有個資 有沒有身分證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10631.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10650.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
有沒有勞健保你們不審核你們有沒有這個資料我現在沒有問你人事資料是你問的啦我沒有問你這個啦我是問你說若干人委員聘用立法院要付錢條文這樣寫你是法治局局長啊知不知道我是問你法治局的問題啊下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10652.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10681.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
來我們看一下補助四方化就是這樣子免減拒核銷而且不限助理費用請問一下法治條文這樣寫不限助理費用立法院補助給委員聘助理的費用統籌運用他寫不限於不限於是不是可以用在別的地方可不可以用來養小三可不可以用來買豪車法律條文這樣寫法治局可不可以這樣做有沒有規定不可以講不出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10684.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10707.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以往下看所以原來我們的公費助理有一個任用法的草案他說遴選資訊接入訓練規定都要寫要自公費助理名冊我先問來 人事處黃處長目前公費助理有沒有名冊有沒有名冊在你那裡有 那委員送過來了非公費助理有沒有名冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10709.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10737.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
沒有名冊之前陳玉珍說找了一個人跑來我們立法院我們說這個是媒體他有沒有記者證一查他好像登記媒體可是他又出在現媒體不應該出現的地方陳玉珍說那是他聘的助理你知道這件事情嗎媒體上有看過好 那你知道那個人是不是陳玉珍的助理我們那邊的名字沒有你們的資料沒有對好 請回我們 來所以來 郭局長再請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10740.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10762.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以今天你認為公費助理任用法草案是否比較有效的可以建立助理的制度你認為有沒有比較有效我們都尊重委員的我問你嘛 你法治局是不是訂一個專法內容可以再修改 可以再精進訂一個專法有沒有對公費助理的制度比較有一個法律的保障基本上要從 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10764.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10784.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
立法院組織法來改還是我沒有問你立法院組織法我只問說為了公衛助理的制度化我們訂一個任用專法你知不支持你知不支持我都尊重委員的提案我先問你局長嘛你是法治局嘛你知不支持我們公衛助理制度化你認為一個任用專法比較有保障你認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10786.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10810.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
不然我要說你不認同喔基本上我都尊重我們各個委員的提案一直跳針要保障公衛制度你法治局長如果敢說訂專法沒有幫助你講講看有沒有幫助我們尊重委員的提案你看他一直跳針尊重委員你哪一個案子不是尊重委員提案法治局的報告是不是你提的法治局這個什麼報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10810.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10830.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好 那不管了 往下好 所以告訴你們來 那個我們法制司司長根據憲法499如果目前的修改立法院組織法讓委員可以增加可支配的統籌運用的費用這算不算對委員本身的權益是增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10832.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10845.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我不是 我先問你 我剛剛講的話如果修了組織法讓立法委員統籌運用的經費多了七八百萬這樣的法案的修法的實質結果是不是造成委員本身的權益的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10847.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10872.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們應該是從法條跟它的修法理由來觀看那如同我們法務部的書面報告中針對這部分有做說明法條雖然只寫補助但是它在修法理由中有寫成實質薪資的一部分那針對這個部分的話我們也有提及就是應該要參酌司法院4-499號解釋文的意旨做這方面的一個迴避的一個規定這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10874.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10887.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
好 迴避是說如果通過了也是下屆試用嘛是的 好是不是下屆試用好 來 法治師是這樣說下屆試用好 那他這個修法呢不是只是自肥啊他還要脫罪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10888.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10905.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
是不是 他還想要脫罪請問一下目前紀署法院審理或偵辦中如果之前因為原來的立法院組織法立委涉及侵占助理的薪資被現在調查起訴或審理中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10906.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10917.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
立法院組織法做了這樣修改之後是不是他們之前修法前所違的這些侵占助理費的罪行就可以因此而免除追究有沒有這個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10918.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10934.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
委員所詢問的主要應該是針對刑法第二條貪污自罪條例不是貪污自罪條例而是刑法第二條有關於行為後法律有變動那是不是可以從有利於行為人的解釋有沒有產生那個效果結論很簡單來講是沒有沒有 好因為這個不是貪污自罪條例構成要解的反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10940.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10955.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
这样的行为就算是修法后被认为不是去侵占就是说这个行为已经是他实质心智一部分了但是修法后的法是往后生效不会去改变他当时所行为时候的行为性质 是不是这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10956.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10981.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
就我剛才講刑法第二條的行為後法律有變動那個法律在目前實務見解最高法院見解是認為現行法法律也就是構成要件的那這個組織法的修改改變了助理會成為立委的實質薪酬會不會改變他們之前基於貪污的目的意圖去侵占立委的薪資這樣的行為可以免除後來刑法或者說貪污治罪條例的追訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10983.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11005.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
簡單的講就是說貪污治罪條例的構成要件並沒有改變那即便立法院組織法有變更了以後那是一個構成要件前提事實的變更這不會適用到刑法第二條也不會產生剛剛講的那個改變的效果好 謝謝今天我們可以做結論了往下看所以不管是處心積慮的要擺脫我們審計主計的規範想要免檢據核銷就是想要污錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11011.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11039.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
而且還在立法說明說這是實質薪資的一部分而且也造成了立法委員僱用的助理不受到立法院的監督包括他的身份資格的查核最後我們看一下所以請法治局針對助理費統籌運用是否違憲提出法規應驗書法治局局長 郭局長你可以做嗎你是法治局喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11040.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11047.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們寫要求助理費統籌運用 有無違憲就是違反499你們提出個法律見解 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11048.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11071.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我們已經看到法務部的意見了我想看你的意見根本包括我們只能做法案評估啦好 那請評估那請將法務部所說的有抵觸限制4-499這樣的一個可能要下屆才能適用既然下屆適用他當然我們很清楚他要挪威適用他也沒有辦法擺脫貪污自治條例的追溯那這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11072.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11087.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這個部分 不要再為難你了來 法制司長針對這個部分可不可以把你們剛剛的意見更完整的表達一下因為你們今天的書面報告沒有寫到這一點可以請你們補一個報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11091.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11111.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
不曉得委員是真我們書面報告中是有講到就是參酌499號我不是講499 我講第二項就是說與貪污自罪條例的關係挪威私用目前我們就算組織法改了之前已經 我就剛剛問你的問題嘛之前已經因涉犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11112.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11133.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
利用職務上之機會榨取財務這些被貪污自罪條例跟來起訴的這些前立委是不是會因為本法的修改後就免於追訴請表達意見 可以嗎針對剛剛委員所講的就我剛剛有講就是不會改變目前曾審討的請把你剛剛的意見用書面的方式提供可以好 謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11137.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11140.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的詢答大家辛苦了那其實從今天的詢答我是覺得很可惜了密蘇蘇這個地方就沒有把你們自己的立場來做一個捍衛今天大家關注的一個法案那很多委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11157.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11183.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
沒有來其實我們也很清楚今天剛好同一時間召開四個法案的一個朝野協商大家都會比較忙但是我想必須主席這個地方正式來提出一點小小的一個看法至於這個法案成為這個法案在立法院對你們秘書處來講的話你們當然或者各行政部門認為說是尊重立法院最後的一個審議但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11185.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11207.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
如果說你先把那個整個你是一個中立的官員的話你其實內心你們會有自己的一個底線這個叫民脂民膏老百姓的納稅錢民脂民膏你說在立法院把它修法不受任何法律的規範就可以把它變成立法委員的私帳 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11208.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11228.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
你們說這個叫尊重立法院這個開什麼玩笑那我們今天所登記的所有登記委員的發言都已經完畢那詢答結束委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11229.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11249.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那委員羅志強吳佩奕審發會所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那本次會議我們就進行到此議程討論事項未及處理的部分所以我們就另期再繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11268.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11270.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
謝謝大家 |