| IVOD_ID |
17114 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17114 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-22-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-11T08:35:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-11T12:16:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:40:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d4318d462e29c2f63f972e27c5d9f23ddd5e67b2ed5162375d738fc35b5b2c58d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【12月10日及11日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:19 - 12:16:00 |
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立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第14全體委員會議報告委員會現在是兩天一次會就繼續開會今天的議程是邀請核能安全委員會主委陳明珍列席報告業務概況並備質詢首先介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1506.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1529.804 |
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在場委員不過現在沒有委員在所以我在場那現在就我們來介紹與會的官員首先是河安會的主委陳明珍歡迎河安會的副主任委員張欣主任秘書王重德 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1532.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1555.808 |
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輻射偵測中心主任陳志平綜合規劃組組長李啟思核安管制組組長高斌輻射防護組組長張淑君保安應變組組長林真炫 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1561.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1584.13 |
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核物料管制組組長 陳文權秘書室主任 邱清威人事室主任 吳建業主計室主任 何雲英增豐室主任 黃炯正 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1589.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1603.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
科技研究院院長高子牧以上為核安會的出席人員那現在請核安會的陳主委進行業務報告時間8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1616.465 |
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1637.458 |
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主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天很榮幸能代表核安會並接同各單位主管向大院進行業務報告首先向大院委員及本會各項工作的支持致上最深的敬意及謝誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1640.011 |
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1662.712 |
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核安会是我国核能及辐射安全的专责主管机关独立行使原子能安全管制工作以下仅就强化原子能安全管制等四项工作重点进行报告进行委员不定指教首先在强化原子能安全管制确保公共安全的部分 |
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1664.882 |
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1669.169 |
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針對核電廠安全管制本會持續對國內核電廠執行各項安全審查及現場視察並辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1674.369 |
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1694.799 |
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追踪与管制以确保核定厂运作安全此外本会以依总统公布之核管法第六条修正条文完成原子能反应器设置运转执照申请审核办法修订作业并于10月8日刊登行政院公报正式施行 |
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1697.26 |
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1724.586 |
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在放射性废弃物安全管制方面本会与监督台电完成核一厂室外干储7座互相运储作业并定期派员查核核二厂室外干储兴建此外严格审查核二厂厨艺低放储存库建造申请案并于9月中办理听证会以强化资讯公开及公众参与 |
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1726.448 |
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1753.562 |
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在强化福灾准备作业部分本会透过视察核电厂以及在核产场举行核安演习将用过燃料池意外事故重大威胁以及复合式灾害等纳入演习情境强化福灾应变准备此外与辐射灾害应变训练导入虚拟实践提升应变人员实作技能 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1755.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1776.833 |
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在辐射民生应用安全管制方面执行放射线照相检验工地不预警稽查导入移动型辐射源科技监控技术并设置新一代辐射源安全管理资讯系统平台提升辐射源 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1778.069 |
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1798.257 |
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管制效能此外 办理相关设备之辐射医疗曝露品宝作业访查并建置辐射安全防护文化数位学习网强化从业人员辐射安全智能在全国辐射 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1800.991 |
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1826.946 |
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全国环境辐射监测方面全年无休稳定运作全台有33座环境辐射监测站监测结果没有异常同时针对全国放射性落成及核设施周围等进行检测至2014年11月完成4804监测分析结果都没有异常 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1829.301 |
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1854.307 |
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针对日本寒川废水盘放持续跨部会合作执行海域监测至114年11月完成3954监测分析结果无异常此外为提升国内生物川检测品质三间生物川分析实验室均已取得食药署之认证强化民众对检测结果之信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1856.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1862.631 |
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接下來要報告推廣原子能科技創新培育跨域人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1865.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1887.478 |
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在拓展国际交流并删减核子保防义务部分持续与美国、日本等核安管制机构定型召开会议进行交流并获得IAEA连续19年宣告我国所有核物料均用于核能和平用途之肯定 |
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1889.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1904.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在推动社会沟通与原子能科普教育部分设立全民参与事务咨询委员会针对社会关注之议题之沟通模式邀请咨询委员给予指导与建议 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1905.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1918.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
另外办理原子能科普展参与科学及灾防防堤管活动并办理教师研习课程以多元管道扩大原子能科普资讯传播 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1920.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1943.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
为落实原子能科技的研发之民生应用,114年本会与国科会共同补助学术合作研究计划,62项,共31所大专业院校及研究机构参与,建立原子能科技跨运力整合能量,促进研究发展与人才培育。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1947.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1975.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
此外本会补助国务院院执行各项计划建立原子能关键技术发展能源级和透端技术在建立原子能关键技术方面国务院院开发全球首创技术可有效评估干功能荣获2025年全球百大科技研发奖令研发长效性 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1977.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1997.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
行摄护腺癌治疗药物正积极推动临床试验此外开发二氧化碳分离膜制备技术可应用于高温二氧化碳之捕捉突破市售商品仅能于低温操作的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2000.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2019.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
国营院已开发长压环境操作之低能量直子照射平台,提供太空元件辐射验证测试,并布局宽能系高功率元件技术,所开发的晶片缺陷密度已优于商业水准。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2022.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2051.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在发展能源及后端技术方面国务院愿用核设施清理经验及技术建立本土厨艺技术自主能力并配合政府能源转型政策提升新型金属支撑固态氧化物电解电池单元的产性效率以及建立木质素高效率萃取技术提升本土能源基础能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2053.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2078.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
为接轨新世代核技术本会补助国营院进行SMR先期研究强化我国SMR技术自主能力此外国营院执行磁约束高温电浆研究计划以完成国内首座球型TOKMOK实验装置的细部设计正进行组件采购与装配为后市运转测试做好准备 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2080.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2104.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
本会将依法独立行使职权继续执行核能辐射及放射性物料安全管制工作同时精进原子能科技研究拓展相关民生应用并落实资讯公开与公众参与以增进民生福祉与环境永续以上报告不尽之处进行委员指教谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2110.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2111.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好謝謝主委請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2115.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2144.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
現在進行詢答每位初席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘夜席委員質詢4分鐘發言登記截止時間為今天上午10時30分委員如有臨時提案請於10時30分前提出並於本會委員會的羅廷偉委員質詢結束後期就會進行處理處理提案時若提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2146.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2161.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
及連署委員均不在場就不予處理首先先請登記發言第一位的柯智恩委員質詢謝謝召委我們是不是請陳主委陳主委請 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2170.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2192.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主委好请问一下就你目前的了解台电是否有提出终止核二核三的厨艺计划目前的进度是如何我说的是厨艺哦我没有收到这方面的终止厨艺计划那目前两座核电厂的厨艺的程序进行到什么地方了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2193.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2218.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你們還是他的監管單位嘛對 我們他們還是進行之中對 進行到什麼程度我請那個高處長跟委員報告那廚藝計畫核安會已經審查完成完成了 核二核三都已經廚藝的計畫已經審查完成了對 可是現在要依法規就是台電公司要依法提出環境影響評估的報告對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2220.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2246.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以还要再提出环境的评估报告好了那目前我还知道最近有很热门的话题就是经济部也是特别提到的核三可能在2028年可以重启也就是再运转所以呢好像让大家看到核三跟核二又有一丝的一个机会了所以呢核安会到底会先收到的再运转计划还是除以计划我现在被搞得有点很混乱 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2248.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2262.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
更委員那應該是台電公司都依法來申請那廚藝許可申請那是在執照到期前三年就提出來所以你們他們也送出了廚藝計畫已經完成現在目前在做的評估報告對不對廚藝的環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2265.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2281.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
環評報告那同樣的他們也有機會因為我們今年的5月當中呢就已經就核管法已經修過了還是可以申請這個再運轉所以當經濟部釋放出核二核三可能有機會再運轉的時候可能也會再送出再運轉的計畫報告沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2283.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2300.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
目前有收到吗目前还没有所以你们预估到底是废的这个到底是所以我说说像目前政策在怎么样就你们的主管单位来看你们好像只能做一个审查到底要再运转或是真正的除异完全是掌握在经济部的手上我这样的认知没有错吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2302.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2328.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
跟委員說明如果台電公司依法提出申請那核安位的職者就依法來審查對那最後到底你是要再運轉或者是要真正處理是由上面的單位來做決定嗎所有都是如果提出再運轉的申請那核安位就審查如果審查都可以符合法規跟安全的要求那依照法規核安位就會核發再運轉的部分換發運轉執照好 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2330.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2358.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以说吧目前来说那你认为就像目前经济部长说照国外的经验审查的时程如果要再运转的话可能一年半有可能到五六年之久那美国是18个月那你个人认为说目前来说核安会应该要审多久如果要再运转以核三来说的话2028年有没有顺利再运转有没有机会再顺利运转2028年有没有有没有机会再顺利运转我想跟韦英报告这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2359.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2388.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
审查时程有很多因素没关系你不要跟我讲那么多我只问一个因为呢我们核三五月才除役二零二八有没有机会再运转如果台电审查报告很完整我们的回复我们审查意见很能很快速回应我们现场视察都没有什么问题有没有重大的零件需要更换 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2389.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2403.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那當然是有可能對啊因為他5月你們過去就安檢了5月才剛除役嘛所以2028來說的話照這樣的時程來看是有機會的不過到底我們核能政策要走到什麼程度來說你們目前就只是負責來做一個這個審查而已嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2406.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2430.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 说实在的 我觉得河安会的角色不应该只有是这样子我们现在看一下SMR目前来说的话呢 赖总统表态不排斥核能而且河安会似乎已经开始启动了你们明年要提出四年中长期计划预算8亿要开始来布局SMR 没错吧这数目还没有很确定但是你们变成8亿了表示大家已经开始来做这样一个处理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2432.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2456.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們20年確定是1億後年以後還有連續4年的申請所以你們開始啟動這個部分我只是告訴主委這個部分來說全世界都已經走在趨勢的路上面了你看COVID-28還有25個國家是屬於2050年要實現和能增加三倍的宣言還有有很多國家跟進而且要達到2050年淨零排碳的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2458.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2480.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以各国目前为止你看看我所调列的都是在积极SMR但是呢而且我们根据我们IAEA就是原子能总数的这个统计到2024年底全国全球的有20个国家是投入这个SMR的一个开发所以目前来说的话我们是不是脚步跟国家比起来是慢了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2481.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2497.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
这方面我们当然会加快对啊你速度已经很慢了而且很多国家都是透过公私协力的方法来做主导所以未来我们有可能寻求美日等国家的一个协助大家共同来做这个开发然后加速它的时程吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2499.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2522.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我们跟美国和日本的沿路非常密切我们也派人到美国的国家实验室参观他们的研究成果所以你应该知道美国制定新的一个框架它会简化声势的时程而且日本选择的是一个比较传统的方法所以未来我们将采取什么样的方式来做管制我希望你们也更满快做出这样一个研议 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2522.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2550.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
到底是美国的方式快一点还是日本的传统的方法而且我觉得最重要的是目前为止呢我们有规划要派人到欧美去做一些学习吧这点没有错吧是的但是你要知道我们核能的政策已经费了这么久的时间所有的核工的人才台湾已经很困难了连清大核工都已经改名你们当初所念的科系都已经名字不知道换到哪里去了所以说呢你们目前为止来说而且台电还传出要测材核发处 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2550.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2566.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
后来呢这整个工程虽然有做了一些的内容的一个调整但是合共的人才没有办法在台湾存留这是一个既定的事实你认为我们的人才有办法赶上未来整个核能全世界的趋势吗你认为以目前的人才的留置来说有机会吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2567.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2590.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我觉得是在人为了我们就努力的话当然会会会改善我们和和安会也规划国家成成绩的原则研究你们要加快速度已经荒废非常多次的当初引以为傲的这些目前就是整个的核能的政策的错误你现在要重新再建制另外一批人才我只能说速度加快因为这是未来的一个趋势对 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2590.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2607.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
還有呢我還是要特別台電擺爛的中期暫時儲存的一個設施你們真的一點辦法都沒有嗎你們是他的盒管機關呢你看從過去到現在你們都說要持續要求台電研議中期暫時儲放的一個設施然後要提出具體的規劃的內容來提供給我們非核家園推動的小組來討論有嗎台電有提出來嗎有任何積極的做法嗎你們設施跟他打了行政訴訟還被法院給否決 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2619.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2625.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
你們是一個監管的機構結果呢現在連這一點權力都沒有難怪台電根本不鳥你們嘛不是嗎跟委員報告齁我們在今年的4月12號其實有新聞給那個飛蛾行政院飛蛾小組請他們積極的積極然後你能怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2641.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2654.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
你看行政訴訟訴訟中撤銷裁罰撤銷裁罰你們要求結果這本來就是在法規上面是你們有掌握這樣子一個所謂的權利結果呢2017年應該通過要求台電2025年2月12起 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2658.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2680.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
启动这个储存设施的部分然后呢2029年要完成这个核废料的一个迁移这都是明文写在那个地方结果呢你们现在只能开发开发结果还被撤销那我所以说我只要请问一下何安慧对于这样的一个所谓的这个储存厂的一个一个设置或者储存厂的迁移你们到底能够发挥什么样的功用 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2681.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2694.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你們現有的職權可以發揮什麼樣的功用所以只能書面糾正缺失繼續要求改正是這樣子嗎這有任何的執行力嗎這有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2696.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2722.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以说整个能源政策我们就是完全混淆不清到底河岸会先接受到的是一个所谓的再运转的计划还是接到一个除异的计划目前为止你们两个都接收然后一切由上面来然后本来要求你们本来国家的政策里面不管怎么样我们要有一个中期的储存场你们有这样的权责可以要求台电去做台电不做你们就是要求开发开发之后法院认证 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2723.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2734.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
撤裁所以我想請問河岸會的功用到底目前會在哪裡你會不會覺得很無奈主委我真的替你感到很無奈一群專家坐在這個地方國家沒有人要聽你們的專業的建議你不覺得很無奈嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2737.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2753.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
台电已经设有那个核废料专责处理机构他要负责这方面的工作我知道可是在权责上面在法规上你要我念给你听吗在法规上面你们是有需要这样的一个功能的只是他们不选你们而已不是吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2754.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2783.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
一个最专业的一个单位里面我们的部分不甩然后呢还告诉我还要另设一个那我们到底在干嘛结床交卧这次到底走到什么地方去啊何阿蔚是不是可以有一个更积极的作为但是我还是强调这不能怪你们我说实在以你们目前所能够掌控的这样子的可以的不管是胡萝卜还是你的棍子都没有办法所以我只能说是不是无奈果然还是很无奈我也很无奈 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2786.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2813.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
謝謝柯智仁委員質詢 核安委主委官員請回座現在請謝龍介委員質詢主席我請主委好有請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2820.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2833.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主委你好 委員好我講和樂圍跟我要緊我才有啦好 我知道因為我們國現在這個婦人電廠婦人電廠已經獨立了這個婦一廠 婦二廠 婦三廠那麼若是新興重啟現在大家都在關注婦三廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2848.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2861.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
跟副理事長副理事長已經停下如果申請他在轉押的見解他可以再回覆申請會不會副理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2867.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2878.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個部分恐怕要由台電來評估嗎?當然啦,因為內部的技術在內,外部有一些設施,它們可以繼續發電當然是要經過你專門性的安全評估嘛,可以申請的。它的現狀,它們的現狀,可以再提出申請的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2894.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2918.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個台電最初方面他們有從內部評估他認為可能是缺乏效益所以他們沒有提出申請那我們沒有辦法去台電他可以申請就對了他如果兵國科興他就可以向你申請理論上是可以啦可以啦他們已經說過可以有好業沒好業總比你買一套五科的太陽簾比較好業 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2924.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2927.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那個說的就是假說的假來的 人家還叫假說的嘛台電是為了要滿足執政者的立場來說一些不應該說的話全民生活這麼困惑全世界的競爭力我們不斷的下滑你看沒電要有AI沒電要有超級的電要有計算力 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2951.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2956.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
沒電是要怎麼發電新的軍工夾對不對沒電要怎麼開車全世界現在有30個國家都有整個貨輪電廠在運轉應該是有400控倍的那麼現在在蓋的新蓋的在建中的大概有差不多90個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2982.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2990.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
價位中的又超過90億以上 價位要再加上去這是一個世界新的苦勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2992.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3015.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那麼我們中華民國要發電 水力發電跟太陽能發電都相當有困難你看一個太陽能發電 無法這樣七八九全世界的太陽能 平均一多塊半 平均啦後四塊半 後九塊 後七塊半 後一塊半 後兩塊一結局兩塊一 美國一塊八 日本整個兩塊七我們台灣五塊 相對老百姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3023.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3051.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
當然這裏面有冠雄高潔 我們會去對折現在是台灣現主席 我知道就斷好了2027以前 羅總統一定要重啟輔營的我太了解他了但是滿足他的虛榮心2025我們達到非核家園啦對公罵有交代啊 夠了啦替台灣人民要想的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3053.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3059.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我現在正式跟你請教 婦人事項 台電的 讓你開封開封就對了 安全檢測 你有困難嗎做好安全檢測 你有困難嗎 婦人事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3079.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3104.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
跟委員說明核市場的建廠執照在109年的12月31號那已經藉其失效了那如果核市場要重啟當然還是要有台電公司跟經濟部針對整個 我知道啦那技術性的跟技術性的不相關的嘛他如果申請要啟封安全檢測你們有辦法完成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3107.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3134.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
你不要去跟他說 他現在建造四樓 建造四樓可以給五樓的啊 要給五樓的就五樓啊所以還是要由台電公司跟經濟部做全面性的去盤點到底有哪些事情如果台電 意思就是台電跟經濟部 如果鄉民提出有市場的開封你們有怎麼做好安全的檢測就對了因為沒有安全的檢測就不可能有富齡化電嘛 是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3135.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3151.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
跟委員說明 只要台電公司依法提出申請 那核安委就依法來審查對 一定是依法來審查所以還要看整個盤點的結果啦 因為還是有很多事情 因為你有去護齡室看過嗎 有嘛 主委你有看過嗎 有有有 封起來裡面 水晶晶啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3163.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3166.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
夠乾淨 比我們家的客廳乾淨開那麼多錢 把它購收掉了這是我們的寶啊 我們的寶啊就這樣把它綁扎 怕生生的不想把它起床 把它綁扎 真沒人性啊這是可以讓台灣經濟 競爭力 起訴非新 提高競爭力的一個很重要的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3191.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3199.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你們大家都這個婦人的專家看得到會不會感到心疼嗎?就這樣把蛋糕放下 把他餵殺你會不會感到心疼會不會感到心疼?感謝委員關心你會不會感到心疼?會不會難過?感謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3220.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3238.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
實在說所有世界在拚顧我們的競爭力包括NVIDIA 包括台積電他為什麼要挖他 坦白講就是電電電力就是國力了這是很現實的啊兩法律要怎麼對抗在整個黨要怎麼來競爭在世界的貿易要怎麼來競爭沒有電 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3250.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3259.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
沒力了 不用再說了全世界都集中在這結構為了意識形態造成今天台灣電力的開發你們是一個很年輕的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3266.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3277.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
本身在這裡是希望主委會提出一個宣示性的,我問,副市長你不覺得難過嗎?我關心你,我是一定關心你的,我請問你內心的感覺,你會覺得說,還要到處穿鞋子,讓我把帕恆放在那裡?主委,最好我再問你一遍,你會覺得心裡很難過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3290.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3309.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
剛剛說過 感謝委員對本主委的關心所以你看本席的樣子就對了 立場的樣子都很難過啦 很好我已經感謝過委員了 謝謝有感謝過就算認同了 感謝你感謝你對本席這種的看法 這不是我個人啦是我接受了很多鄉親跟我說 我們台灣優秀技術包括企業界 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3316.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3333.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
他說 如果沒有電台灣 我們要怎麼拼命呢我們這裡的製造業 我們這裡的生產業電不斷的企業 人們大陸在花錢不斷的落價 降價身份 我們不斷的提高身份我要用什麼去跟人家競爭呢所以 我會向經濟部 來要求 想盡辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3347.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3355.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
給婦人視窗 拿到完整完備的資料後 向幾位 提出正式的申請 這樣好不好這是委員的意見 好 感謝你的支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3376.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3392.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝謝榮介委員質詢那官員請回座現在請萬美玲委員質詢好謝謝主席我們有請陳主委主委請 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3400.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3418.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
主委早我们经济部在11月27号核定了核电厂现况的一个评估报告其中我们看到核一厂因为重要的设备都已经拆除了所以经过评估不再具有运转可行性但是核二核三厂都评估具有 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3418.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3440.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
再運轉的可行性而且要啟動自主安全檢查那麼台電也計劃在明年的3月要提出核二核三廠的再運轉計劃那我們看到鞏明新部長說核三廠最快在2028年的時候就會開始重啟那朱友想請教您行政院或者是經濟部他是有找核安會來討論核電廠再運轉的相關議題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3446.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3469.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
没有没有喔那如果没有找你们讨论那我们这个龚部长却表示核三厂最快2028年初就可以拿到核安会核发的再运转执照那他这样子的说法这个底气从哪里来这个应该问部长吧那你同意他的这个说法吗我只能这么说了 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3471.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3487.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
國安會當然會依據職責嚴格審查時程上我很難給一個很確定的時程好 所以您這裡其實很難給這個時程但是廣布黨自己就說了2028那當然您是不知情的是這樣講對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3489.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3515.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
当然如果要有很多条件之下是有可能的没关系所以他这样的说法是没有跟你沟通过的好那待会我们来看今年五月的时候卓院长说我们相关的安全检查的一个程序最少需要差不多三年半的时间那但是呢龚部长又说了他说按照国际惯例要去顺利审查的时间是一年到一年半能完成那我想要请教一下主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3515.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3528.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那我想短短的這個半年期間安全檢查的這個時間相差這麼多那兩個人講一個講三年半一個講說一年到一年半那不曉得站在核安會立場來看誰講的才是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3531.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3548.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我剛剛跟委員報告過有影響師生有很多因素包括台電的準備資料台電對我們的問題的回復速度以及我們現場觀測結果過去的保養狀態所以他們兩個講的誰講的是更接近正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3551.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3576.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我現在還沒有做過評估你還沒有評估那個院長都已經講說三年半然後部長又講一個一年到一年半那你都不去了解一下說他們當中哪一個人講的其實可能有誤那你可能要去就是指點他們一下或提出一下問題點我想這也是您的責任嘛你怎麼可以說他們講的東西你還沒有了解我覺得這樣不好所以是不是可以請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3576.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3599.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
匯後下去以後你去了解看看到底誰講的是對的為什麼這時間差距這麼久這麼大這個差距其實是大的那你看其實如果按照啊按照經濟部的一個說法如果明年最快明年3月台電就會送了再運轉計畫給核安會來審查 審核那主要想請教一下那您剛說了嘛就說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3599.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3622.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
中間的變數跟可能的條件因素非常的多對不對那核安會有沒有去了解到底在國際上我們去做相關審查的程序要注意的事項或者制定的相關流程這個核安會都有去了解嗎有 我有請高署長對他們沒有關係有去了解嗎是不是有那我順便能不能補充一下剛才委員所提到一年半這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3623.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3630.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那按照經濟部所講的是台電公司自行自主安全檢查所需要的時間大概一年半到兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3630.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3658.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那之後還要送到核安委來進行審查跟現場確認那這部分的時間我想您是幫他補充說明啦他自己並沒有講那麼詳細啦他講的就是按照國際慣例順利審查時就是一年到一年半所以應該要這樣講啦就是說您看到不管院長或部長他們的說法有未盡之處或者錯誤之處其實應該要提出提點好不好以上我就是跟你做一個提醒喔好再來我們再來看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3660.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3680.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
核二厂我想据了解核二厂这个室外干室储存预计明年第一季就能够完成而且也已经在今年9月26号向核安会提出试运转的一个计划我想请教一下主委目前核二厂的室外干室储存设施运转计划的审查进度可不可以简单说明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3681.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3709.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
有沒有預計什麼時候會審查完畢報告委員如果台電公司能夠順利就是對我們的議題做理性的話我們有望在今年的明年的2月能夠完成這個試運轉計畫的審查好就是說你預估是在明年2月但台電如果他的速度更快一點可能也會往前提意思是說看台電他送上來的這個過程是嗎我們有一百多項的意見給台電公司所以台電公司我了解我了解好那我認為啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3710.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3729.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
其实不管是核二或是核三场的重启其实我想都会有部分的民众他是有疑虑的所以核安会其实你作为一个审查的主管机关我认为也要去跟我们的民众说明相关的进度这个安全性等等所以这些跟民众的沟通相关的计划我们有没有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3731.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3759.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有沒有在做跟委員說明只要台電公司提出申請的時候會裡面會按照以往的做法會辦地方說明會好啦所以其實你們跟台電橫向的這個往來其實也要更細緻更平凡一點好那我再請教一下那我們看到環境部這個彭啟明部長昨天在受訪的時候也說依照現行的法規核電廠再運轉不需要環評但環境部站在督促的角色他會確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3760.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3771.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
審查納入環境相關的考量我想請教一下主委我們環境部是二級機關核安會是三級獨立機關但彭部長說他要督促核安會您認為恰當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3772.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3797.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我覺得他意見我們是覺得沒什麼問題所以可以接受他的督促我們平常就有密切溝通溝通跟接受他的督促層級上是不太一樣的我想跟主委講一下其實您應該也知道所以到目前為止我請教一下環境部有沒有針對核電廠重啟找核安會來討論你們討論過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3801.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3829.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
没有正式的讨论那有私下聊天不过我们会议跟环境部是有来往好然后我想请你给我补充一下核安会是核能对于针对没关系那个主委不用了我想再请教一下如果彭牧长他希望核安会在审查核电厂再运转计划的时候纳入环平的考量主委认为有没有这个必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3830.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3844.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
實際上已經納入了服務社對環境的影響評估本身就是核安會職責核安會這方面會負責全部責任至於其他的因素呢我們會跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3846.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3871.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我认为啦我想核安会它是一个独立的机关我们跟其他的相关的部会假设有任何有关联的议题我们多往来多研究是好的但是因为我们是独立的机关我想主委这个要确保我们不要受到其他的干扰好再来呢要跟你请教一个题目这个我请一下主席我请一下那个国务院院的高子牧院长有在现场好时间关系我就直接发问好 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3872.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3896.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們看到去年底多達2.4萬公升的柴油流入石門大峻農灌系統導致周邊1.2萬平方公尺土地被匡列為污染控制場址我想請教一下院長2.4萬公升的柴油流入周遭的土壤跟農灌的系統這等於一輛滿載的油罐車的油 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3898.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3909.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
如此龐大的油量整車漏光光國園院卻是等到環保局通知才發現院長我想請教一下國園院這樣的後知後覺監控上出了什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3912.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3941.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
報告委員我們在去年年底12月29號就有嚴密的配合環保局的調查那在1月2號我就親自沒有 總是不是你們發現的嘛對不對不是我們發現的是沒錯好油為什麼漏這麼久它因為地下是暗管暗管有街頭鬆脫結果就一直漏漏漏了一整個禮拜院長你對啦你現在你也有跟我一個報告說漏油的原因是輸油管連接的法件鬆脫嘛是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3944.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3960.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
館長你這個回答其實我聽了更是心驚膽顫如果就只是一個罰件鬆脫如此嚴重的漏油如此量大的漏油那麼在本席看來這鬆脫了不只是罰件而已這可能是有人員的訓練管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3961.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3988.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
相關的鬆脫才嚴重所以經過這件事之後本心想要問一下國研院針對有污染風險設備操作的教育訓練跟SOP的流程等等有提出了什麼樣嚴格的規範了嗎報告委員我們在這事故以後針對一公平以上的油槽通通要有液位偵視器還有錄影機監控它的液位在它漏油的第一時間液位正常24小時有同人值班 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3988.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4017.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
去觀察大概有12口這樣的油槽就只要監測到有異常優惠就要回報不會讓它漏了一個禮拜有SOP了以後落實是很重要最後這個事件桃園市環保局開罰了這個84萬對不對但是國務院院針對被污染的土壤及水源還要進行相關的整治跟復原的工作那請問院長你有沒有去計算這次漏油事件整個國務院院要花了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4018.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4034.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
報告委員今年預計會花五千七百萬那明年大概兩千一百萬最近的兩年那等整治有確定的成果你想想看我覺得真的很離譜耶將近八千萬的這個預算經費你這是全民買單你的錯誤耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4036.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4050.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這算不算全民買單你的錯誤是 所以我們在事件發生了以後有懲處相關的化工組組長化工組的所長化工所所長跟護所長因為都是檢認被懲處以後我們報到監察院監察院有發函來調查過兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4054.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4071.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我覺得一個結論啊你知道嗎你們的一個人為書師啊我覺得8000萬夠不夠我都還不知道全民買單這樣的預算是一個嚴重重大的浪費那第二個呢相關的土壤可能有污染水源可能有的污染我覺得你都沒有辦法做百分之百保證我覺得這一連串 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4073.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4098.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這不是一個小小的說是疏失改善SOP就能做的事情我覺得針對這一件事情啊我希望這個院長會後啊給本席辦公室啊一個仔仔細細的報告包括事件發生的原因現在SOP還有未來你怎麼去落實SOP還有你的懲處還有未來這個預算上面你花到哪裡去了給我整套的計畫可以嗎可以多久的時間兩個禮拜以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4101.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4129.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
兩個禮拜以內是好那就10天可以嗎好好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢那官員請回座現在請葛如君委員質詢好謝謝主席有請陳明臻主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4131.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4132.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好 請出位 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4139.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4168.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
主委好隨著經濟部在兩個禮拜前核定台電的核電廠現況評估報告大家都非常關心核電何時重啟的情況畢竟這個揮打要落腳台灣還有非常多的工廠正在建設我們的供電到底能不能滿足AI的爆發大家都很擔憂也很關注根據修正後的運轉執照申請審核辦法要重啟要滿足三個條件我想您應該是在清楚不過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4169.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4175.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
第一個是台電要提交相關的自主安全檢查的報告16-1條台電要提交再運轉計畫書再來16-2條河岸會審核通過再做再運轉執行結果報告現在台電對外是講說明年3月會先提交再運轉計畫書給河岸會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4189.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4202.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
而自主安檢呢台電目前是說有些部分要請延長協助預計在2027年的年中來完成然而在這個自主安檢的過程當中台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4203.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4229.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
或者有心人士會不會有一些要上下其手的地方呢比如說請原廠多次來評估比如說可以一次完成就分成多次完成能來一次做的變成來N次做或者控制交報告的品質報告該寫的地方沒寫不用寫的地方寫一大堆到時候時程延宕又開始踢皮球 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4230.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4258.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
說核安會沒有跟我們說要寫這個請問一下主委這個部分核安會有沒有辦法去監督這個時程跟報告的內容一次搞定而且越快越好有沒有辦法監督核安會已經跟台電做過溝通了我們要求什麼有什麼標準都已經跟台電有做過溝通這方面請組長再補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4259.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4274.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
跟委員說明這兩份要提交的報告會裡面跟台電公司都有溝通那我會裡面也參考國外的經驗擬定的審查導則所以相關的技術細節跟審查的要項在裡面都有說明非常好請問這個會議相關的這個所謂審查導則有公開嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4278.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4293.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
有在官網嗎對會議記錄會後提供給我本席好嗎所以應該不會讓他們說一年半後一次交結果又不足吧是分次交還是一次交你們這個倒折是怎麼弄的這個倒折是整體性在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4294.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4315.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那當然台電公司在法裡面我現在問細節突然你又要繞出去你說有倒折倒折是一年半之後交一次交還是分次交倒折不會去規範台電公司什麼時候交那交的內容是針對內容技術細節的部分那他一年半以後會不會來跟你講說做不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4319.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4345.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個可能就涉及到台電公司的整個管理部分所以真的是 主委我們這真的是提醒不要到時候幫有心人士背鍋不要到時候供電不足相關單位又把責任推給核安會你當時沒有叫我們要分次交我一次做結果老外過不來內容這個時間不夠那你為什麼有沒有辦法分次進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4346.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4374.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個是不是應該和安會要多做一點事情畢竟經濟部這個工部長講說台電最快2027年中完成置評報告注意一下喔他講的喔決策在和安會這決策不是只是最後把關啦如果你最後把關你只是說要交喔要交這些這些喔過程當中沒有任何的督促監督的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4375.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4399.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
會不會很危險啊這一點希望主委在這裡可不可以把全責講清楚我們看幫你們講了看了這個第16之1條最後一段有提到前條規定文件經營者得是需要注意喔向主管機關申請分階段提送可不可以分階段可以的可以嘛那你們島澤有沒有說分階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4403.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4422.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們就這樣全民在這裡 河安會在這裡你要交這個一年半剛剛也有委員 萬委員也提了有人說兩三年如果他說一年半他說做不到 兩年再交可不可以你可以說不可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4425.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4448.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這時間我們會和台電會密切的溝通是 所以相關會議紀錄要公開 要透明之外 我們幫你法條查好了經營者得市需要 得市什麼需要得市國民與國家的經濟發展的需要向主管機關申請分階段提送分階段有沒有可能有沒有可能 主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4449.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4464.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
是可以的可以的嘛所以希望這個主委這邊能不能建議一下台電繳交各項評估報告的時間也提供給他們建議在倒折裡面並在收到相關的報告收一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4465.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4482.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
公告一份收一份公告一份我講的是公告內容跟缺失啦要透明我們不能這樣全民在這裡叭叭的等哇 一年半後他突然舉手啊 抱歉 我做不出來那何安慧妳也不能在這裡叭叭的等嘛同意吧同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4483.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4509.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主委我們會跟台電密切的溝通好 謝謝勇於認識不然台電到時候一次塞給你到時候又萬一真的有什麼理由正當理由我們可以理解可是你們認為理想的佼佼的程序分階段這個我覺得要讓他們知道否則到時候我是想要講說說核電重啟時程可能會影響到特定 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4512.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4525.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
業者的利益啦不是我講的啦不是我講的啦蔡英文前總統講啦光電有弊案我們的能源一直不足夠零碳一直不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4526.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4541.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那就可能有弊案越漫長的重啟時間可能會越有人得利同時前也一直在提醒說我們要合律共存這個裡面我想相關的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4542.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4569.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我就不仔細解釋大家細細品味也應該都懂啦所以我們為什麼我們今天要來督促河岸會也謝謝主委勇於認識啦我們不要捲入這樣的一些權利利益的漩渦那剛剛所以我想這個您勇於認識但是整個我們的結構啊也應該機關的結構也應該要幫忙您啦我也幫您關心了就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4570.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4591.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
原人會在兩年前被降為三級機關現在就是河岸會當初說得很好聽說是配合行政院組織調整但是有一些人看出來覺得說這是不是配合家園變成叫不動部變成叫不動委員會你可能叫不動經濟部可能也叫不動台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4592.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4618.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那如今我們這個時勢在變了賴總統都函出了不排除任何有助於淨零能源的方案包括這是他的原話未來新的先進的核能那顯見整個時代都往前推那我就要請教主委您勇於認識我給予肯定但是現在三級機關核安會有沒有辦法去要求二級的經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4619.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4643.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那台電又是屬於經濟部這個直屬的那三級機關要如何去協調二級機關如果未來牽涉到安全的事情在機關的架構之下變成經濟利益優先台電利益優先那安全利益呢所以這一點會不會有監督不對等的問題主委您覺得繼續保持這樣的關係合適嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4649.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4673.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
目前我們是監守崗位做好核能安全管制工作如果未來核電廠重啟要調整機關的位階的話那確實對國際交流人才培育跨部會整合是有幫助的太好了謝謝主委直接完整的唸出同仁幫你準備好的這個說法我們非常認同為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4675.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4703.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
兩年前改編制的時候原能會的蔡前主委就懷疑在面對他當年高瞻遠瞩說面對未來小型核電廠SMR跟核融合的發展降級後能否因應國際趨勢有可能會遇到挑戰尤其如果核電要重啟核安會的工作會越來越重所以我想總是政府不能總要馬而跑又不讓馬吃草這個不能讓經濟利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4705.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4732.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
特定團體利益或公司的利益優於安全的這個考量所以我想這個您身為核能大家長有這樣的見地我們予以認同我們也在此也希望能夠向卓院長表達相關機關的架構的調整可能勢在必行那提到最後幾個點提到SMR本席有拜讀過國務院明年的SMR計畫書 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4733.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4756.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
有這樣的東西非常好 予以肯定那裡面列舉了SMR的數項優勢哇 太棒了 非常清楚有我們的能源韌性與安全的概念在裡面電力調度的彈性國安層面還有產業需求的方面淨零台碳的方面都是優上加優啊那對於這樣這麼適合台灣的SMR院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4760.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4784.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
你知不知道我們國家編多少錢的經費啊我很感謝你寫的這麼好嘛對啊 那多少錢啊我們明年編的一億有拿到SMR計畫一億元我們一個特別條例1.25兆就要出去了沒有電能抗中保台嗎沒有電能保家衛國嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4788.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4806.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個問題很簡單可以還是不可以不可以所以能源很重要我在這裡跟各位站在同一線這個東西加上後年要實施的中長期計劃才10億一年平均大概2.5我們已經幫忙整理了各國的狀態美國是100倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4810.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4816.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
1000億台幣是1000倍啊法國政府362倍韓國呢2.16億美元67倍請問主委主席不好意思 再接一點請問主委您認為這樣SMR的量能夠嗎1億台幣啊目前只是起步而已以後應該會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4836.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4854.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那明年有沒有機會十億後年有沒有機會百億我們現在看到到119年才十億啊你說要增加快一點吧明年有沒有機會上看十倍十倍就好美國現在是一千倍可以考慮吧可以考慮吧可以討論吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4856.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4881.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個是可以討論的不過我們要做到能夠執行為什麼本席在這裡要提醒大家要看懂上位者的看法賴總統已經親自表達了我幫他說不排除未來新的先進核能的技術卓院長說對新核能要主動對話研究及合作卓院長的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4882.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4896.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果他們都講了你們沒有排進去你難道要總統 院長打電話給國務院院 給主委這樣不夠啦要這樣嗎主委不用吧不用吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4897.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4922.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
謝謝委員他已經講了他們很急啊他們現在在院長辦公室在總統在總統府很緊張啊到119年10億台幣你叫他怎麼兌現心何能願景嘛好不好所以這一點我在這裡幫忙讓你們感受一下那最後這個未來人才我們看一下這個委託的學校啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4923.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4942.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們也很擔憂啦國安院這邊我們很肯定你們對SMR的展開但是人才你們在報告裡面主席我在最後20秒報告最後一頁報告最後一頁我朗讀一下河安會未來將全力推動流財 育財 攬財等措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4945.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4963.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們應該要召集千人回台啊和安你們都是子弟滿天下的啊結果我們發現啦人才計畫的速度太慢了金額太低啦我們馬上應該要全面要追趕了好不好這一點我們是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4964.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4989.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
多做一點 權力攬財 留財育財要有錢 要有人 相關的編列可不可以有更務實的做法會後提供一些相關的報告給我們 可以嗎好 可以的 謝謝需要多久給我兩星期好不好好 兩星期 好不好 謝謝感謝謝謝主委 謝謝謝謝院長 謝謝主席好 謝謝葛如軍委員質詢那行政官員請回座喝口水 要不要喝口水 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4998.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5019.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好 現在請陳秀寶委員質詢謝主席 請陳主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5028.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5048.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主委好主委新聞有報導有清大的教授表示說核電廠用過的燃料棒95%都能夠回收成為新燃料這位教授指出現有的核電廠退下來的燃料棒其實是用了裡面5%的這個鈾燃料 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5050.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5064.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
其他的95%都沒有用到而第四代的反應器特別是快中子反應器可以把剩下的這95%繼續使用所以還有90%可以拿來作為第四代核反應器的燃料然後來發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5065.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5081.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他甚至指出說中國已經有一台第四代反應爐在運轉那美國的技術大概十年內可以商轉我想請教主委主委您本人跟或者是我們核安衛的同仁對於這個說法有沒有了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5083.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5099.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
这个是以前旧有的观念本来现在核电厂使用过的只使用掉一小部分而已大部分将来还是在处理之后还继续使用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5100.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5128.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以对这个教授所指出的我们的燃料棒使用的只是里面一小部分剩下的部分其实还可以再拿来使用的他这个说法主委您也觉得是这样子吗是正确的日本就这样做他说这个教授指出中国已经有一台第四代反应炉在运转那美国的技术在十年内是可以商转的您觉得说以现在的技术这是可行的吗或者说这个说法是可信的吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5130.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5151.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個在理論上是可行的好那我這邊也是要一直要強調說我們核安會應該跟得上要必須跟上國際的這個核能的趨勢希望說核安會我們要掌握最新的狀況了解最新的技術這樣才能在關於其他國家有核能的消息出來的時候我們可以在第一時間有 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5152.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5178.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
正確有效的這個立場來說明給民眾了解 解除他們的疑慮所以 縱觀我們剛才的循跟打主委是說95%的這個沒有使用到的這些燃料可以再次來回收使用那麼第四代反應爐用這樣的回收的燃料棒來使用是可行的技術是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5179.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5204.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
是的 理智上可行的謝謝主委我想請教主委烏俄戰爭已經持續很多年那位於烏克蘭東南部的這個扎波羅勒核電廠也一再的被國際的原子能總署示警恐怕存在安全疑慮那扎波羅勒核電廠目前是沒有在運動本身的電廠反應爐是沒有在運轉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5204.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5231.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
但是他們會需要電力系統來維持這個冷卻跟安全的系統以防止這個反應爐發生融毀的這個現象進而引發核子事故那這幾個月呢陸續有傳出這個紮波羅勒核電廠受到戰爭的影響會有斷電的情形例如他們的那個柴油發電機的電線就被人為破壞那相關的這個電力系統出了問題那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5232.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5250.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
这个断电的情形一直持续,这个扎波罗勒核电厂有可能发生核子事故这个时间,就是如果它断电多久可能会引发核子事故?要计算才知道,不过断电久确实会引起核发事故。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5251.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5275.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
因為它雖然電場反應爐是沒有運作的它這個冷卻系統還是一直必須要持續的在維持它這個安全那如果它真的因為戰爭的影響很不幸的在這個電力中斷的時間過長真的造成這個反應爐有問題也發生了核安事件的時候會不會影響到我們台灣民眾的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5279.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5291.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
距離是蠻遠的像上次車諾比事件的話台灣也隔好久才偵測到直接影響到歐洲地區會比較 馬上會有影響因為台灣跟這個核電廠的距離讓我們會有一些緩衝跟比較可以自保的一些措施盡快來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5301.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5326.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那核安會你們有沒有建立緊急的應變措施因為戰爭真的是我們無可去預料它什麼時候會發生怎樣的事情如果真的不幸有這個電廠發生的核子事故那對於核電廠附近周邊會影響到的這些區域的範圍有進口到我們台灣的商品我們會不會有機制馬上進行管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5326.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5343.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
台電已經訂了面應軍事威脅下確保核安整備與應變計畫及相關程序書並透過年度的核安演習來訓練精進已經有了 我們已經做好準備我的意思是說雖然這個紮波羅勒核電廠離我們很遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5346.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5372.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
萬一發生了河岸事故不會立即的危害到台灣民眾的健康但是在他那周邊周圍的一些相關的商品如果我們台灣是有進口的他可能是會有這個輻射感染疑慮的我們會不會有這樣的機制這樣子的對應變的措施對周邊的這些商品進行管制有這樣的機制嗎食藥署應對這方面會有邊境的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5373.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5399.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我们有这样的建议给他们吗已经有这个制度建立了因为河安会你们是管理就是对于这个部分你们是专业所以有需要有这样的机制来启动的时候即便他的职责职权可能是在食药署但是河安会你们这边是有你们的义务跟你们的责任是要告知跟启动这样的机制吧请组长回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5401.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5416.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
就是我們會如同那個過去處理福島河事故的一個經驗那第一個時間因為他們的一個空服污染可能會造成人員就是我們國人在歐洲可能會有一些污染或者是物品的污染我們會在機場成立那個門框偵檢器 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5420.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5439.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
然後來協助一些污染的清除那至於像是一些食品或者是物品的那就是我們就是跨部會的一個合作就像食藥署過去也曾經針對日本進口食品一直來進行那個邊境的一個管制那我們這邊會提供相關的偵檢的技術服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5442.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5470.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
您是组长吗是 谢谢组长您也预先回答了我下一个要问的问题那我再重复一下我刚才问的当然您也回答了就因为核安会你们是专业的你们对于这个核能安全核子安全这个部分的管制跟研究你们是专业的所以在其他部门虽然职责可能是在食药署或在其他位环或是其他的部门但是你们有这样的专业你们必须要去启动这样接着去以你们专业来 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5471.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5475.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
告知來通知來啟動這樣的機制是由你們來啟動吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5479.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5502.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
是嗎 報告委員我們這部分不會說是我們啟動但是我們就是會跨部會的一個溝通協調像我們會提供一些技術那剛才組長您也說了包括我們在那附近的我們的台灣的國人如果有旅居他是在念書或者其他商務的需求或是在當地的我們的國人我們也會有其他的一些機制來啟動保護他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5504.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5533.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個我們都會及時的跟我們外交相關的人員來一起就是關心我們國人的健康這個是你們職責吧但是這也是你們的專業所以我會希望說就是因為現在有戰爭在發生中所以說對這個核電廠相關的安全的疑慮如果我們能夠做得更周全希望給我們民眾一個有比較有保障的就是說我們其實是隨時在關注相關的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5534.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5562.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那我再請教一下關於核電的議題討論度現在很高的就是關於核二核三會不會重啟的問題那台電是預計明年3月會送核安會來審議在討論重啟之前本期這邊有關於核廢料存放的問題要先請教核安會核二廠跟核三廠都有規劃興建室內乾儲場那目前也在招標中而且其中核二廠已經招標第三次請問這是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5563.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5568.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
跟委員報告核二廠的部分室內乾除已經在前天結標 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5570.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5592.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以這次有順利的有順利的標出去了那河山廠的部分因為他第一次的招標不足三家沒有辦法達到那個工程會的要求所以他會再開二標第二次招標就對了那好 既然河二廠已經完成了這個招標的程序那請問預計什麼時候會這個騎乘你們訂出來了嗎什麼時候完工這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5598.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5615.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
掌握在原能會的部分我們建造製造大概會省一年半這個一二廠我們都有經驗那試運轉計畫省四個月運轉製造省四個月這個是我們核安會可以掌握的那其他工程部分那就要台東公司自己來掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5616.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5633.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以你們是在關於這個審核的部分是你們那其他的這個部分你們跟相關的單位我希望說你們給我一份你們的期程你們到時候送一份資料到我辦公室來那我還是要強調其實核廢料還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5634.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5661.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
後續的中期處置跟最終處置的問題如果我們沒有辦法妥善的處理核廢料的問題我們要貿然的使用核電這真的是非常的危險尤其是中期的處置廠跟最終處置廠這個選址問題一直都沒有辦法解決也沒有辦法取得共識所以我希望說未來我們在核安會在審查核二及核三再運轉計畫的時候必須將核廢料的處置問題納入考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5662.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5687.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們會要求台電公司來進促其實核電運轉最重要最大必須面對的問題就是核廢料的儲值所以這個部分我希望說未來我們關於這個部分核二核三的再運轉計畫這個部分你們一定要很審慎那關於我剛剛提到的就是這個乾式儲存廠的這個相關啟程你再送一份資料到我辦公室是好 以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳秀寶委員請光雲回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5694.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5710.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
要不要喝口水好那現在請吳佩奕委員質詢好謝謝主席我請何安慧主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5718.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5745.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
主委好主委我想核能安全是國人大家都非常重視的那因為今天我要請教幾個比較具體的計畫所以等會如果是直接是業務單位相關的也就請同仁直接來回答我們這個在時間之內希望可以來充分討論關核安會我們長期有在蒐集國際上面的核安重要的資訊也持續的跟國際組織國際原子能總署保持聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5746.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5775.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那今年二月的時候發生一件事情也就是車諾比的核電廠遭受到無人機的攻擊造成什麼問題呢他們的防止輻射外洩的新安全為主體受到損傷那上個月呢國際原子能總署還有一個追蹤的報導我先請教一下這一個核電廠他的新安全為主體受到損害會造成什麼嚴重的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5778.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5782.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
一開始的話目前還沒有真正到有嚴重影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5783.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5800.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
但是如果持續下去的話是有可能造成環境的威脅什麼樣的威脅呢因為他們現在趕快在修復了嘛所以這個新安全為主體它是什麼樣的功能為什麼要做這個東西防止輻射外洩對安全當然很重要尤其這一個核電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5809.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5835.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
當年輻射外洩的時候1986年我甚至還沒出生但是到今天 直到今天為止我們都還要為了這個防止核輻射外洩的事情要做很多的準備因為它這個傷害是無可回復的所以呢我就要請這個何安慧來去了解因為它12月5號的時候我看國際原子能總署還發布了一個新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5836.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5859.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那就是說這個車諾比核電廠遭受的無人機襲擊烏克蘭方面已經指出說這個就是俄羅斯對他們發動的戰爭的攻擊把他這個新安全為主體整個破壞掉破壞了一部分那他本來是可以密閉的嘛現在沒有辦法密閉就如同畫面所示你們有沒有跟國際員警能從屬來了解這個最新的狀況呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5862.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5887.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
國際上面的核安資訊跟委員報告我們都有持續掌握國際原子能總署跟其他國際資訊有沒有什麼樣的資訊可以跟我們分享像委員有提到新實慣就是新安全為主體的受損目前IEA的最新的檢視是顯示它的密封性確實像委員所說的是有結構上是有受到破損 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5887.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5904.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
然後不過它的在整個承載的部分以及它裡面輻射監測的部分是沒有問題的所以現在正在進行緊急的修復現在就是趕快緊急修復對所以我想這個案例其實是提醒我們也叮嚀我們在戰爭的極端情境下 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5905.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5932.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個核安他可能會提高他的威脅程度那核電廠當然也就是台灣的防衛韌性防災韌性很重要的一部分因為我也是立法院全民防衛這個連線的會長那總統府也推動了全身衛防衛韌性委員會我們各個部會現在都在投入來去做事先的評估有準備最重要有準備才安全所以包括了權動署包括了內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5933.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5959.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
存動署出了一本台灣安全指引小局書內政部最近開始要全台灣進到社區來向民眾說明當災難發生時候我們應該要怎麼準備我們事實上要準備什麼物資我們應該要怎麼樣來疏散我們可以怎麼樣來自救以及助人那所以呢我想要請問我們核安會針對我們核電廠倘若在戰爭當中受到攻擊我們有沒有相關的緊急應變計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5962.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5984.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
報告委員目前電廠都已經訂了面臨軍事威脅下確保河岸的準備跟應變計畫那也有相關的一個程序書所以電廠也透過每年的年度河岸演習跟場內的演習去做一個演練檢視每年我們都有演習嘛因為它不只是場區內因為一般最可能會發生的後果兩個一個大規模爆炸另外可能是場區內大範圍的火災 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5987.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6005.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以他可能要協同的就包括了我們兵警力你可能有消防醫護這通通都要投入能不能請教一下按照我們現在你們緊急計劃都有訂定對不對倘若是場區發生大範圍的火災我們第一步要做什麼民眾第一步要做什麼我住在旁邊而已我第一步要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6005.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6032.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
民眾的部分嗎對 他可以向誰來請教資訊還是上你們的網站上面有資訊公告嗎我們的網站上都會有相關的資訊公告網站有資訊公告那他在現場 倘若他事前沒有看過你們這個網站因為除了我以外我想我們立法院也沒幾個人看過那真的要很關心你們核安會才會去看這個他在現場事前沒看過聽到這個發布警報他第一時間應該做什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6032.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6051.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
如果是發布警報那就表示就是有核子事故的疑慮我們就會請民眾先進入室內也就是像剛剛委員有提到的就是政府有發布的那個小局書裡面我們就有就是宣導如果遇到核子事故要聽看聽誰會去請民眾要進到室內誰會在現場協助疏散 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6054.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6074.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
在我們就是警報發布的時候就會請民眾要進到那個現場去做誰會做這件事呢現場誰會去請民眾要進到室內應該不會是你們啦你們在很遠的地方我們有核子事故監測中心到時候監測中心成立的時候會在就是現場緊急應變器那些單位要進駐到這個事故中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6075.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6103.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
包括核安會跟我們所屬的輻射偵測中心然後以及台電公司的放射試驗室還有其他的相關像內政部我們核安會由誰來進駐誰是現場的第一指揮官是我們輻射偵測中心輻射偵測中心的主任那我們會有幾個人力來投入我們的人力部分嗎對 我們核安會自己核安會自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6107.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6126.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個因為每年都有演練嗎福社建設中心會的成員有包括相關政府機關包括台電然後那個內政部所以我們進駐中心演習的成員一次大概會有三四十位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6127.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6156.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
三四十位那有關於警力啊醫護啊消防啊這個需要跟地方政府協調的我們是有什麼窗口來進行橫向的聯繫在演習的時候我們會有設置前進協調所是相關部會的長官都會在現場那輻射監測中心如果有任何的需求物資人員或者技術上的協助的時候我們會透過前進協調所來請各部會提供相關的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6157.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6185.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好非常好因為其實我們每年都有進行演練我也看過你們的資料我們是有計劃也有在準備的我們甚至河岸會也要求台電及各河電廠要去增加戰爭因應措施例如河岸演練但是主委今天我要提醒您因為我們現在在推動的全社會防衛韌性最重要的是除了我們政府有準備以外我們要讓民眾知道萬一發生災害因為災害有很多種可能是天然災害可能是地震 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6186.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6201.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
有可能是核災各種的災害的型態當發生的時候我們要怎麼樣來準備所以呢我認為核安會或者你們來要求這個事業機關其實必須要開始來進行社會的教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6202.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6220.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們有做相關的準備但是這些資訊必須要公開必須要公開透明讓民眾可以知道萬一發生災害的時候如何來保護自己如何來保護家人如何來保護社區這我想是非常重要的所以能不能在預算審查之前侯安慧給我一個初步的方向可以的好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6228.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6233.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好 謝謝吳蓋義委員 那官員請回座我們現在休息10分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6274.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6279.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6319.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6347.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6349.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6369.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
現代式的博弈的產品在這些年代遇見的戰爭中,有多加時代的自然反彈,經歷了不少的戰爭,有多加時代的自然反彈,經歷了不少的戰爭, |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6374.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6389.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6413.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6416.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6440.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6450.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6456.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6481.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
請不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6486.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6492.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6492.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6516.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
然後回到那邊然後這個回到那個回到第五次第五次那個就是回到滿監督的然後旁邊的因為他主管的地方是滿監督的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6518.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6540.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6542.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6543.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6568.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6578.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6592.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6604.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
謝謝大家收看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6625.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6628.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6631.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6653.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6659.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6679.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6690.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6692.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6702.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6715.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6729.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6731.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6745.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6760.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6765.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6775.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6786.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6807.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6833.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6834.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6969.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6981.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 現在請林佩翔委員發言林佩翔委員林佩翔委員不在請張雅玲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6987.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6991.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們邀請主委好 請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7000.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7028.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好 主委我想前幾天11月28號的時候經濟部核定了三座核電廠的現況評估報告認定核二跟核三有再運轉的可行性台電也隨即表示將會進行自主的安全檢查並在2023年3月會先提出一個再運轉計畫並且在2027年將自主安檢報告會送到核安會來審查我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7030.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7043.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
接下來這個核安會的角色到底是什麼就變得非常重要我們現在是我想要請主委回答我們核安會是被動的收建單位還是我們是核能安全的把關者 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7045.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7059.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們核位值得就是對核電廠的把關工作是最重要的工作所以我們會非常想站在專業上面去做安全的實質審查對嗎是的好的那我想就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7061.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7084.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
當社會聽到這個聚在運轉可行性的時候就會認為你們好像已經在背書了我認為這個對你們的獨立性跟專業性會有非常大的考驗所以我希望你們還是能夠秉持著專業來去做實質的審查因為所有人都生長在這一片土地上面之前我們都一直不停地強調三個共識三個共識還是最重要的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7086.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7110.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那接下來我也想要跟主委再請教就是根據核管法第16條之一我們確實是允許經營者先停出再運轉計畫再分階段來補齊第16條所要求的一些重要文件包含整體的老化評估 耐震安全評估中期安全分析等等的但是我們也看到經濟部已經有提到說他們希望可以在2028年能夠進行再運轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7113.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7131.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那我想請教一下主委根據您的經驗我們從專業的角度來看還有從國際的審查實務來看我們能夠保證在三年之內完成這件事情嗎核安會可以完成審查嗎然後再運轉核安會一定依法根據國際的標準進行嚴格審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7134.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7144.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
该做的项目很多实际上我们没有办法给个确定的日期多快可以审查完毕一定要依照依法实行 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7145.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7164.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
必要的安全檢查所以我們依法行政嘛對不對依法執行嘛不會有一個確切的時間表嘛還是要回到就是國際的一個同儕單位以及透過國際的專業審查來進行所有的時程那是不是可以請教主委國際的專業審查的時程他們大概多久的時間呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7167.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7185.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這也是不一定長短有些比較快有些會審查蠻長的對在我看到我今天收集到的資訊像法國就是像如您主委說的差異時間非常的大法國甚至到了20年所以我想大家還是專業性在於安全的問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7188.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7211.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
在11月的時候監察院其實也提出了一份報告就已經把問題講得非常清楚就是海淀在104年的時候就已經去做他們現在就依照了美國的SHAC Level 3的標準替三座核電廠做過機率式的地震危害分析結果發現我不曉得主委知不知道這份報告就是說三座核電廠實際可以承受的地震程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7212.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7240.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
比當年都已經超過當年建廠時的設計值也就是說其實我們的耐震力需要很大的一個調整因為這是有一個很大的疑慮那在114年核關法修法的時候呢我也要再澄清一個重點就是核電廠的運轉執照其實都已經到齊了沒有什麼延續只有再運轉所以我們所有的執行都必須依法重新來過依照這個SSHEC Level 3的分析結果把整電 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7241.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7254.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
整個核電廠的耐震 安全 色化老輩的問題重新評估之後才能夠重新申請再運轉執照我這樣子說對嗎 這個流程是這樣子嗎對 地震絕對是我們要檢驗的最重要項目之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7255.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7284.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好那接下來我也要來談核廢料的部分就是說我們現在呢其實不管怎麼講就是我們還沒有我們一直都有一個最關鍵的問題沒有處理就是像我們這個低放射性廢棄物選址條例從2006年立法之經將近20年我們都選不出一個最終處置場址那核二廠其實自己現在都是卡關的狀態因為乾式儲存設施沒有完工反映爐內的一個這個燃料棒還沒有退出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7285.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7303.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
就代表說我們到現在實務上根本無法執行那至於高放射性的廢棄物在經濟部6月的時候就已經公開他們會去提出高放選址的條例草案可是現在到12月了我們還是沒有看到任何的版本那 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7304.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7318.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我想我們還是要非常坦白的去講過去國民黨在面對核廢料的問題其實都沒有真正來面對一直都沒有面對他們都一直停留在未來可以用乾式儲存先存40年再說 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7321.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7340.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
一直都沒有去面對最核心的一個核廢料處理的問題好那我這邊也覺得非常荒謬的是說我們今天還要協商青年基本法那其實在整個青年基本法討論的過程之中呢或者是我之前召開相關的環境的一個座談會的時候都會有年輕的朋友甚至兒少告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7341.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7369.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我們現在所做的決定基本上承擔後果的都是他們因為在存40年之後在座的很多人可能都已經離開這個世界了可是我們的孩子就是要承受這一切後果的所以我就覺得非常的諷刺一邊說要尊重傾聽青年的聲音一邊要挺青年但是一邊我們做了這樣子的決議卻完全沒有去考慮到下一代要承受什麼樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7369.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7384.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
後果就只有把問題丟給下一代所以最後我也是想要再跟主委討論一下就是我們關於社會共識的部分核管法的第六條跟第五條其實都有去講到說我們的環評法 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7387.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7413.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
都有講到說我們需要保障我們的公眾安全而且要確保環境保護與生態保育那我想這個觀念其實一直在更新也一直在改變那環境部其實之前有說環評法需要修法彭啟明部長也在11月30號指出可以先進行政策性的環評但是實務上政策性環評只有遵循性質沒有任何的實質的否決權根本無法回應社會對於核電的一個疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7414.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7434.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那過去呢 核安會也曾經在相關的報導說是否要繼續做環評呢 要由環境部來認定可是我認為作為核能安全的主管機關核安會有責任在相關的執法中清楚規範申請在運作時要具備哪些安全的 哪些文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7435.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7457.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以我想要請教主委在核電廠申請再運轉的制度上是否我們可以明確的去規範申請人必須檢部環評的相關資料我們可不可以把這樣子的一個要求納入執法裡面我們執法裡面也有包括輻射方面的安全評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7459.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7474.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
在河安會的職責是對於輻射對環境的影響評估要負完全的責任至於其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來共同協商討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7476.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7494.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我想其實大家一直在講環評就像剛剛講的環境部已經表示環評法需要修法他可以先做政策性的環評這部分環境部已經沒有問題了可是現在是說現在問題是在於要做環評這個是你們說這要由環境部來認定可是我認為這應該是你們要來認定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7497.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7525.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
問題在這裡我們核安會職責是針對輻射安全做環境影響評估這方面是核安會要負全部的責任但是問題是我們還有講到你們的第六條也有講到公眾安全還有環境保護跟生態保育等等的你們自己也有提到我們現在是希望把這些東西也納入在環評裡面那這個是不是可以寫在執法裡面呢主委您的態度是 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7527.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7546.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我跟委員說報告核管法第五條是明確寫說要合於相關法令這部分主管機關是回到環境部核安會已經針對會裡面的主管事項就是輻射相關的議題包括對環境對工作人員的一些輻射的相關議題都已經納入到執法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7548.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7570.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以這部分河岸會已經按照自己的職責來處理那剛才那個主委也有提到針對非輻射部分的環境保護這一部分可能會裡面還會再跟環境部進行討論那好 因為我時間已經到了那我想就再給我一個時間你們大概會討論多久我們可以來追蹤過去的進度你們跟環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7574.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7594.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我們要跟環境部討論要再向委員報告好不好我想我需要一個時程表可不可以之後一個禮拜之後給我一個你們規劃的時程好嗎給我兩個星期好不好兩個星期好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅琳委員請官員回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7602.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7620.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
先請林怡瑾委員質詢謝主席 有請陳主委有請陳主委主委好 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7622.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7650.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個星期一深夜日本親身的外海發生了規模7.6的強震日本也隨即針對鄰近鎮央的核電廠進行戒備跟安全檢查當然所幸一切平安我想任何人都不會想要再陷入311福島核災發生史的恐懼所以不論是核電廠除以與否 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7651.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7674.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
或者它是否還要再運轉就天災來臨時這個針對核電廠的這個安全管制還是非常重要的議題那經察院在今年11月7號有發布一個報告那這個報告裡面有指出說台灣三座核電廠的耐震能力堪憂那台電跟核安會應檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7676.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7702.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那監察委員也有表示說在地震風險無法預測的情況之下那各廠的運轉超過40年之際台電公司應該針對攸關緊急停機設備組件的先期耐震補強作業外還缺乏對於這個各核電廠結構體的耐震及系統老化影響等評估顯有安全的疑慮這個監察委員說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7704.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7731.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
雖然藍白聯手強行通過了核管法的修法把核電廠的運轉期限延長到60年我們從現實面來看無論如何我們都必須務實的去面對核電廠的安全管制的議題尤其監察院剛剛我說的公布了這個調查報告顯而易見不論它是在運轉的狀態或者是核電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7733.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7758.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
的安全性他其實他特別對耐震度的方面我們都一定要嚴加的來加以這個檢視那特別檢察院這份報告也針對了耐震度來敦請台電跟核安會來檢討評估那可是本席認為除了地震這一件單單地震這件事情以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7759.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7772.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
它所造成的複合式的災害像是地震後會產生一些海嘯或者山崩甚至是軍事的威脅這個都應該要納入核子 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7776.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7790.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
反應設施運轉執照申請審核的辦法的評估項目當中其實民間團體也有提出很多寶貴的意見所以我現在要請教主委何安會參採這些民間的寶貴意見的情況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7795.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7816.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們對這些意見非常動視 是所以內政方面或海嘯或複合型的災害對 複合型災害都有相關的規定也都有相關的評估都有把它參採進去這些複合型的災害的安全評估是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7819.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7842.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
同樣我們涉及核安法官的就是還有核子事故緊急應變的策略因為我們可以看到核安會都有辦核安演習本席是要提出一個關鍵的問題是核子事故緊急應變法中有關於核子事故緊急應變計劃區的劃定是不是要有檢討的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7847.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7871.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
因為我們看日本福島核災發生後日本政府就強制核電半徑的20公里的居民要疏散驅離也要求20至30公里的居民要採室內掩蔽或自行疏散如果根據我國核子事故緊急應變計畫區的範圍其實只有8公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7876.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7900.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那如果萬一發生核子事故的話恐怕我看恐怕是難以充分的應變那再來就是說這個緊急應變法的第13條的第二項有提到他說核子反應器設施經營者應定期提出緊急應變的計劃區內民眾防護措施的分析跟規劃並設置完成必要之場所及設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7902.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7921.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
河一、河二它半徑30公里的範圍內其實都框到整個台北市所以數百萬人都是所謂的潛在的影響對象河山場它半徑30公里的範圍內也框到了我們人潮熱絡的墾丁 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7924.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7950.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
鬧區 所以本席認為就算核電廠沒有在運轉那核廢料 核物料還是放在廠址裡面同樣有風險所以主委你認為在現在的交通狀況之下假設我們即便就是依照日本的標準 匡合30公里的範圍內那這數百萬人真的可以安全疏散嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7952.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7972.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我國的緊急應變區計畫是根據風險分析的科學評估結果這方法與美國等世界國家其他國家是一致的做法台電每三年都需要重新評估過緊急應變區的檢討評估我們經常有滾動式的檢討目前是8公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7981.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7992.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對 8公里對 可是要檢討的範圍需要擴大嗎因為我們看日本我們覺得目前是緊急應變區是適當的我們經過科學分析以及風險分析這確實是要滾動式檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7997.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8019.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 那即便你現在的所謂的8公里的這個計劃區裡面你覺得用現在的交通狀況安全疏散是沒有問題的沒有問題 我請這位署長補充一下跟委員報告一下 針對疏散的部分我們現在都是採超前部署的方式然後也就是在輔助還沒有外適之前先做預防性的疏散 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8019.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8047.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因此就是在疏散的時候都會考量以風險來做最優先例如說弱勢族群這個會需要當然最優先是那所以它的這個疏散它是會分階段分流的來進行的這是目前的一個應變的一個規劃那也每年的河岸演習也都有進行演練像今年也就有針對屏東縣就是三公里範圍內的居民都有做這個疏散演練是以及弱勢族群也都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8048.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8074.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
因為我們如果參照這個日本這個福島核災發生那其實它是這個20公里半徑20公里是強制那30公里是要求他們自行所以我的意思是說這個20 30這個是日本政府的規定可是這個因為他們發生這個核災是血淋淋的這個例子在那裡所以我們的8公里是不是也必須要滾動式檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8076.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8099.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這8公里是不是範圍太小一些就是說是不是這個災害我覺得這個其實核安會也要定期檢討不是說它規定8公里那我們就是只用8公里來做安全疏散的範圍是不是報告委員這個部分我們也都有滾動的檢討因此我們最新的這個檢討評估台電公司提報的這個報告是今年6月的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8100.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8120.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
是依照剛剛主委有說的依照我們風險評估跟國際上其他國家一樣的科學的根據來做的評估所以目前是定為八公里好那再來同樣的就是說民間其實也持續向河岸會來倡議就是所謂的高放選址的條例的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8120.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8140.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那我們當然不能說我們只是討論是否在運轉而始終忽視了這個高階核廢料的處置跟它的法源所以我要再次強調就無論核電廠運轉多久或者它是否重啟運轉用過的高放射性的這些廢棄物它就是產生就是在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8141.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8153.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以我們必須務實的面對這個問題嘛那高階核廢料它的處置一定是我們的必要任務啦齁那所以請教主委這個高放懸止條例 核安會內部還要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8157.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8175.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
跟委員說明高放選條例其實是經濟部他的專案辦公室在研議那他去年 今年4月的時候辦公室成立然後他的工作就是要來執行這個高放選條例的立法那草案目前經濟部還在內部討論中 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8176.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8205.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
可是你們是共同參與的嗎我們其實有給經濟部我們的管制專業意見我們今年有邀請經濟部來會裡面跟他說明了三次我們對一些管制上的可能的技術要求讓他們能夠來那如果按照你的推估大約什麼時候會有比較具體的我確實會推估因為他們是專案辦公室在處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8205.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8230.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 最後再做一個小問題就是我國現行的原子能法它的主體是在1971年修正到現在已經超過50年那它的立法思維可以說是已經很難應對當代的這個核能挑戰尤其是它該這個法的這個宗旨它是究竟是要管制還是推廣什麼原子能的利用也有待商榷也就是說原子能法 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8231.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8242.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
應該要通盤檢視那並評估是不是要重修這個法所以我要請教主委說目前原子能法有推出修正草案的這個打算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8245.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8266.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
原子能法跟委員報告原子能法確實很長的時間沒有修改那我們也陸續的在進行草案的提出還有跟專家學者的討論因為現在相關的管制法規都有個別的法律在譬如說核子擺機設置管制法輻射防護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8268.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8290.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這些管制法規都有在使用目前原子能法在執行上並沒有至暗難行但是因為它已經很久沒有修了這部分我們會繼續努力的把它修了讓它與時俱進以上報告好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝林怡瑾委員請官員回座現在請 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8297.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8311.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
劉書斌委員發言 請范雲委員代理主席請劉書斌委員質詢有請陳主委有請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8328.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8346.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
主委好委員好我們在12月初的時候看到一個新聞就是雜貨的核電廠它被它的防護牆被 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8349.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8368.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
就破口了那整個烏克蘭的715億的核災設施有破口出現的時候那國際原子能總署就警告輻射外洩恐失控那這邊是一個叫防護牆那針對這個議題最重要的是核安衛事長管核子核電廠的安全那我們大家就想問的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8369.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8386.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們的核電廠有沒有這樣子的一個防護牆還有就是說我關於核電廠的安全設計有沒有針對國際能源總署他所提到的暫時核安指引或有沒有外部威脅的評估的要求這件請組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8391.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8412.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
報告委員就是委員所問的就是針對IAEA最新的這些暫時的指引跟外部威脅這些重大評估目前就是台電公司都已經訂了核電廠面臨軍事威脅下確保核安的準備跟應變計畫以及相關的程序書那也透過每年的演習做一個檢討精進所以我們的台電有這樣的一個計畫書嘛對不對有在演習嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8416.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8444.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那這個部分是不是可以給本席或是你們已經放在台電已經放到他的官網上面了嗎我知道這件事情嗎報告委員因為有些內容因為是涉及保安的部分所以他是屬於比較機敏的但是他在演練的時候我們的都會派員去做一個視察檢視好那我當然講詳細這是你們河岸會知道嘛對不對是好那這邊我特別想問到就是這後面的如果可以的話我希望說給本席一份這樣子有沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8446.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8468.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
還是就是還有說核子安全的設施等等好那如果沒關係我們看到我是想問的是他是否這樣的一個指南裡面啦計劃書裡面是否有已經針對無人機的攻擊還有飛彈的落彈還有長時間斷電的這個設計基準外的這樣的事件有沒有這樣子的一個內容包括這些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8469.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8488.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
報告委員有的 像委員所提的無人機攻擊也是近年非常重視的一個議題那每年也都有進行演練好 那這樣子就會涉及到更重要的問題老師我們已經針對了國際原子能總署最重要的最新的這樣的一個趨勢已經因應到像五二戰爭下面的無人機的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8489.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8513.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那在下面的問題再下來就是在於說那我們在8月20號的時候呢核三廠考察的時候台電的徐永慧副總他有回應到現場的質疑說核三廠有完整的安全性不只是原始設計的抗震是0.4G還已經加上了所有極端風險機率性的考量因此台電的徐副總他認為說核安會呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8515.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8532.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所說的加固到1.384G呢是考量到所有安全性風險機率的抗爭能力並非只是抵抗單純的地震喔這是非常重要因為是何安威是做這個把關的那請問主委或者是高斌組長齁請問一下除一中的機組扯三的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8533.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8546.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
核二的 乾式儲存的設施在是否已經納入暫時防護情境是否在國軍戰略跟民防單位有計畫的銜接保障核電在極端風險下仍然是安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8548.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8562.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
報告委員,因為我們台灣的柑橱設施系統其實都引進於美國NRC核准的系統,那開發商當時在設計的時候,有些柑橱甚至是實際上採用飛機撞擊去做測試? |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8566.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8584.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以這邊事實上包括機組那乾式儲存你今天也提到了嘛對不對乾式儲存包括你們現在的已經開始招標的這乾式儲存廠的標也是要求這樣的一個標準對不對這台電公司的招標案不過台電公司招標案裡面對於耐震設計有特別的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8585.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8600.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
對 而且是全部嘛對不對包括是極端風險都已經包括進去了好 那另外的是在國軍戰略跟民防單位是否跟這樣的一個演習有沒有做計畫 因為現在想要全民任性包括如果遇到這種極端的情況是不是也沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8602.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8630.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
就是保障核電廠是安全的啦是 包括委員相關的這些重大威脅都有納入他的演習的情境然後有做討論跟實際的一個演練所以剛才所說的有些委員他們所提到的這樣的安全包括不只是地震甚至連極端的危險的狀況的風險都已經包括進去都可以抵擋住對不對是是的這就保證出你核安會的這樣子的一個尬詞我覺得非常好讓全民在核在 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8631.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8655.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
國家的民意最高電廠裡面立法院展現出這樣的一個核安的態度好那我們現在再看看是核三廠的議題我們現在已經進入到一個除疫的階段核三廠的一號機二號機電線現在所謂的過度的管制期包括說爐心的燃料也拿出來了那現在已經進入到的是所謂的自主安全檢查的一個時期對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8656.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8671.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那這個時期當中呢現在我就會遇到一個很大的問題就是說我也看到目前呢可以看到的是一個情況是因為經濟部部長他也提到的是台電預計在明年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8672.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8696.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
2026的3月要提出要提出來的是申請重啟的這個辦法提出的計劃嘛 對不對那現在就必須要說剛剛尤其是河山廠的2號機材才進入到一個除役的階段那除役的階段面臨到的是25年可是我們也知道如果他明年3月就進行的一個重啟的計劃書要提出來申請的話那會遇到 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8699.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8720.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
廚藝跟重啟的這個有這樣子的一個重疊時間那請問一下在這個情況之下哪一個轉是不是會遇到有一個轉折點的情況那這個轉折點是在哪裡可能會在哪裡就現在已經有了資料上級長官經濟就是說另外的在屬於核三廠的我說核電廠的重啟這部分請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8724.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8747.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
跟委員說明除役許可的申請案是執照到期前三年那台電公司依法來向會裡面申請那這部分就是等台電公司提出除役的環評報告之後那如果符合法規 核安會才會核發除役許可那目前如果按照台電公司或者經濟部對外說明如果明年三月提出換照的申請案 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8747.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8763.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那核安委也是依法來就是還審理之後再看情況然後因為剛才委員提到除役跟重啟這兩件事情可能會並行那我們也會參考國外核電廠重啟的經驗就是恢復申請的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8764.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8781.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那我們會針對重啟的現場工作進行現場查證或視察那也會針對重啟跟廚藝的共通事項來進行查證那這部分還是會持續辦理一些乾除設施用過燃料的一些安全的管制作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8782.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8806.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
換言之如果台電提出重啟的一個申請那當然依照程序去申請的話也提出你們在審核包括的情況下就變成重啟會是比較優先的項目但是重啟跟在裡面他要預報過的是在核燃料裡面的這個燃料棒也是要拿起來如果他是說已經有空間乾除設施可以進去包括乾除廠也是會繼續再建嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8807.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8834.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
是的那現在的問題是那二號機的部分燃料池這部分也都大概有了解所以包括現在的處理設備的拆除這件事情基本上就會停止的喔廚藝當中的這個設備的拆除這部分會停止嗎對 跟委員說明現在是就是按照廚藝計畫的規劃是現在是過渡階段那台電公司就是準備一些乾除設施的一些準備新建作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8834.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8857.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
因為現在還沒有正式提出來我一次用過燃料的安全好那現在可是已經看得到一號機我們已經看到說它的已經開工把設備拆除氮氣槽跟試水加清系統的部分那二號機是否還會繼續進行二號機的這個氮氣槽跟試水加清設備各位委員那是合一廠氮氣槽跟試水加清這是合一廠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8858.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8883.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好那這樣子了解所以事實上核戰是更新型的嘛對不對就沒有這個設施那我們現在要更強調的是另外一部分可是如果遇到的是核燃重啟那重啟的情況之下有一個問題是說核燃料的補充是重要的因為核燃料的補充我們現在看到這裡就是說核燃料如果在營運的運轉的計畫裡面的核燃料補充這部分那到時候是會有誰來負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8885.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8900.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
是來編預算等等的這部分有沒有考慮到這些事情因為你們可能也遇到這樣的情形要思考跟委員說明這個燃料者採購是屬於台電公司的商務採購合約那這部分細節要由台電公司去規劃說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8901.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8925.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
OK好那就是可能兩邊都被重啟了之後他表示核燃料的部分可能台電部分就會更重要的去下去負責這邊的一個重啟等等更重要的一個構置對不對好那可是剛才有一個問題是在於說另外剛才對重啟有個政策有說環評剛才說提到環評可是目前環境部的部長他要提到是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8927.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8949.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
要做環評可是現在在目前的核子設施反應器的管治法當中並沒有關於特別所謂的他後來講到說政策環評因為考慮到要政策環評就會把人民的這個意見放進來當地的或是全國的意見中進來那請問一下對於政策環評我是注意到是政策環評的意見核安會的態度是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8951.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8961.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
覺得有必要嗎如果有提出政策環評的話那當然要修法可能在核子設施反應器的管制法裡面你們的態度是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8963.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8989.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
核安會是負責核能安全管制對於輻射對環境的影響評估這責任完全是在核安會核安會要負起全部的責任核安會是負責環境評估對不對但是我現在說是政策環評因為現在環評裡面沒有特別去講到是對跟人的這方面的事情我們會跟其他議題我們會跟環境部協商討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8990.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9016.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好 那如果這樣的話是不是要涉及到要把核子攝氏反應器的管理管制法要做修訂才能加入到這個有法源依據是不是要有這樣的考量跟委員先補充說明那核安會是核安嘛主管機關那針對輻射的相關議題在我們的執法已經納進來了那這部分也是環評的一部分那但是針對非輻射 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9017.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9046.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
非輻射相關的環境評估這部分那可能就要剛才主委有說明就是要跟環境部再去討論不過因為所有的事情因為剛才說辦法有可是所有的事情都需要要有法源依據的那目前政策環境是看到沒有的像跟環境部在做溝通之後這部分可能會是重要的一個依據不然沒有辦法的法源依據其實做不來只是在辦法上面它的一個執行的效力也是會有問題的我就提供到這樣子的一個意見我希望大家跟環境部的時候要注意到這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9047.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9070.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好 謝謝主委請回謝謝那個劉淑冰委員的質詢下一個請郭玉琴委員謝謝主席有請主委有請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9076.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9104.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
好 主委辛苦了這個經濟部雖然已經核定了台電的一個評估那核一是不可能重啟核二核三可能但是台電說還需要大概一年半到兩年來做這個評估跟自主的檢查但並不是說這個做完兩年之後就馬上可以因為後面還要經過我們的最嚴格的這個核安會的一個審查所以應該是說1.5加2年後面要加N對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9105.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9125.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我想這是非常重要的一個提醒那我想關於核一其實它已經有一個先例了光是這樣子一個審查的過程就長達了將近有7年那這個也給我們一個非常重要的一個提醒第一就是我們的審查不能硬壓縮這個時間因為安全是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9126.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9154.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那再來就是我們的標準是不是應該要公開再來核廢料的後端這我常常在講核廢料的後端要怎麼處理我們是不是一定要講清楚我想今天這個質詢其實最希望就是我們核安會可以能夠幫助或者是整合我們整個所有的一個行政團隊那把這個研議當成是一個非常非常重要的一環跟治理的架構我們是不是能夠用透明可信 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9155.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9171.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
最重要的是對全民安全還有凝聚我們的社會的共識那我想第一個問題就來了我想這個河安在審查的時候我剛剛講不能壓時程這個壓時程其實就會避免變成是政治的時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9172.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9197.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
壓過安全的一個考量這是不對的我想這個合一當年其實我們預估大概要將近24個月是兩年的時間但是後來其實我們做了整整快要七年的一個時間所以其實這代表這個核能的審查它的本質上本來就那麼複雜它不是單一的不是說你兩年就可以兩年但後來我們也發現做了七年其實我們不能用政治的時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9197.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9212.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
去逼迫所謂的時間點這個其實是大家都應該要知道的那接下來我想要請問的就是核安會我們能不能夠主動的去公布這個安全的審查到底應該要有多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9213.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9227.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因為我們要讓社會知道這個審查是照安全而不是照政治避免外界其實在誤解我們政府是為了要趕時間我想這個安全是不能用趕時間這三個字來做政治性的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9228.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9247.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
再來當經濟部說核一老化到已經不行了同時核二也大概是差三年了就有可能會有老化狀況也會完全不同我們當初在講到尤其是乾除的設備核二的部分是2030年才會完工這個沒有錯對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9249.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9276.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好那核安會我們是不是已經確認了這些所謂的時間差還有老化進程當中的一些差異並排除掉時程的壓力會造成所謂的被迫加速審查這樣子的一個利率這兩個問題請教一下核安會核安會職責最重要的是確保核電廠運作的安全這點是毫無模糊的餘地我們審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9278.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9298.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那我們會不會主動公布我再重複一次問題我們會不會主動公布這個安全審查需要多久的一個評估我們會一切都是非常透明所有的申請書我們的審查意見台電的回覆我們都會上網公告而且每一個程序都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9300.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9325.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
讓大家知道而且我們絕對不會為了縮短時間是剛剛我有特別提到就是說我們的核二大概是差三年它的老化狀況可能跟之前我們的評估可能就會完全不一樣我們有沒有把在審查的過程當中這些有可能的一些比方說它老化的程度或者是它的一些變數我們有沒有把它考量在 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9325.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9354.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那一定要考慮的是一定要考慮的所以已經有這樣子的一個考量對那必須要做的好那我們剛剛有提到這個核一其實最後被判定是因為老化過於嚴重這個核一的部分那另外如果說核三要重啟這老化的評估將是一個非常非常重要的一個關鍵那我想這個核三的老化評估的標準會不會比核一更加的嚴格我舉例來講包含防震 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9355.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9383.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那麼包含壓力容器的一個催化還有它的結構性的疲勞另外還有蒸氣產生器等等這些有沒有包含在裡頭因為我們也看到這個國際它有例行檢查的一個但卻看不出問題的一個案例那包含這個戴維斯貝西核電廠他們真的例行的檢查但問題是他居然找不到這個問題在哪裡有這樣子的一個案例所以我們核三如果真的要重啟我們的核安的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9384.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9414.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
會不會比核一要來得更加的嚴謹請教我們對這個所有的老化所有零件的老化評估都會非常非常的仔細檢查就這樣一句話而且因為已經申請延期20年所以核安會對這個是非常非常謹慎的那我直接這樣問我說我們核電的自主檢查現在目前有沒有接軌最新的國際的標準這點請教主要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9415.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9437.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
跟委員說明,那有關於老化跟反應爐這些的組件或一些必須要考慮到的因素會裡面有參考國際的一些標準跟做法因為我記得何三當初有說如果要研議的話這個蒸汽產生器其實要不要換那之前其實我們的台電有說必須要換那現在這個立場是一致的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9438.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9452.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個還是要透過台電公司現場去檢查然後進行評估之後我們才會知道那會不會公開重要檢查的項目跟標準會不會公開當然啦那個在運轉計畫裡面就會去規範說台電公司要做哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9453.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9472.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
因為這個是建立社會信任最重要最關鍵的一步啦所以其實在這個檢查的項目那我們有沒有接軌國際或者是說我們的項目嚴謹到什麼樣的一個程度我相信其實應該要公開透明讓更多的社會能夠了解我們有社會共識剛剛我提到社會共識很重要喔好 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9473.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9498.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
第三個問題來了我想這個後端的核廢料如果沒有規劃好其實根本不用考慮研議的一個問題我相信這個核二的乾除其實我們拖了大概也說2030年這個將近快要10年那另外就是核廢料的一個處理如果沒有解決的話核電的政策其實就會被卡住那我想核廢料的處理是非常非常的重要請教一下核安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9498.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9523.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
是不是已經要求這個河山的重啟的計畫必須要同步提出我的乾除的時程跟地方有沒有進行非常密切的溝通另外呢再來進度在哪裡如果河山沒有清除的乾除的一個時程請問我們會不會認為這是不符合審查啟動的一個正當性另外就是高放的場址 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9524.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9534.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們講今年要提出今年年底要提出請問現在的時間是12月11號到目前我沒有看到草案這個目前草案在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9537.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9563.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
向委員報告有關河山的甘楚的部分在12月4號台電公司第一次開標因為沒有達三家所以它不符合相關採購法規定台電公司會再辦理第二次的公開招標作業相關的期程其實掌握在河南匯的部分我們大概建造執照會省一年半左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9564.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9571.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
市運轉跟運轉直到各省4個月其他的工程的要件都是由台電公司來掌控 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9572.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9598.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那第二個問題有關那個委員吹詢的這個高放處置的宣誓條例我們其實河岸會主動邀請經濟部在今年開了三次會議我們提供的管制資訊給他但是目前草案還在經濟部還在內部討論中說12月底呢12月底現在已經快要12月底了我們理解但是因為這經濟部的作業我們其實不 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9600.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9614.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好 那我到經濟部那邊再去諮詢的意思嗎謝謝好 那我想我剛剛講到這個所謂的這個高放長值這個條例的部分目前你們也還沒看到沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9614.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9644.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好那因为你们没看到那我当然更看不到所以我可能还要再继续的追问但是我真的希望就是核安会在整个所有的条例当中我刚刚讲12月底之前出来的这个草案我们核安会有没有角色在里面有没有角色一般来讲就是经济部他要做临选计划的时候他会征询我们的意见然后日后如果寻找出场址他的安全性由我们来负责确认 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9645.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9673.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好你們來負責確認好我相信今天其實我們主席特別排這樣子的一個就是請你們來做這樣子的一個業務的報告那最重要的其實我們應該要從合一給我們的一些教訓也好給我們的一些歷史的經驗也好就是審查不能壓縮尤其是安全性的部分絕對不能因為政治的關係而壓縮到所謂的安全審查的這個時程再來後端不能拖延 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9674.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9691.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
還有就是老化的部分我們不能輕忽其實這三大重點只要我們掌握住才有資格來談後續我核三要重啟這樣子的一個問題所以我相信我也希望這個核安會我們用最嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9692.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9716.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
然後再來最公開的一個方式我們把審查的過程然後跟民間的溝通跟所有的共識的集結然後包含我剛剛所提到的到現在12月我們是還沒有看到所謂的高放選址到底什麼時候這個草案條例才會出來那這個部分如果河安會你們這邊有先第一手掌握到一些訊息再提供給我辦公室可以嗎可以的好 謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9722.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9741.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
謝謝郭鈺請委員 官員請回座現在請范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員質詢范雲委員主委有請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9748.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9776.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
主委好我想从我们五月的时候我们教文委员会蓝白匆匆修了这个核子反应器设施管制法第六条让它可以就是所谓的在运转20年原本只有40年的这个年限到现在我们居然听到我认为是假消息2027要重启核电想请问主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9777.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9801.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
就是和安我們領妥協對不對這是和安會的立場嗎不是不是你說我說和安領妥協對和安領妥協我剛才沒聽出對不起對我們對和安的要求是沒有任何妥協餘地而且絕對是非常清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9802.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9826.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 那我們一切都是依法喔雖然我認為上次這個衝衝修法喔那針對所謂叫做什麼叫做重啟喔什麼叫做再運轉喔講得不清不楚並沒有強化安全因為這個法很多都是舊的喔那但是呢依照現在的法規如果台電送出再運轉計畫河岸會必須審查以下六項文件沒錯嗎主委 這個六項文件是的沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9832.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9840.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
沒有錯那這個第六個其他經主管機關指定的文件目前你們有指定什麼文件嗎第六項 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9842.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9871.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
因為前面就是老化等等當然監委已經告訴大家就是監委的報告談到跟地震相關的安全評估也請參考第六項其他經主管機關指定的文件你們決定了沒有跟委員說明前面我們是參考美國的換照的申請所必須要提出來的文件另外我們也考量國內的管制的重點就包括輻射相關議題跟耐震這部分好 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9872.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9900.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那這個第六項是什麼內容我今天有詳細的想要跟你們討論確定您剛講是依照就是美國的標準嗎如果是依照2024年美國政府問責署那他的美國核能管理委員會有提到要充分考慮氣候變遷的潛在影響高溫乾旱野火等等這個部分那台灣這是講的是一般性對不對台灣的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9901.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9919.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
2013年歐盟的核安管制組織來台同行審查的時候就有提到關鍵風險應該要全面更新自然災害的評估特別是地震海嘯他們認為台灣的地震海嘯 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9920.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9938.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
的風險而且是複合式的非常的高特別是河山所在地斷層要更精細的研究那低震度後也要檢查建議我們重新評估斷層與地震的危害所以根據這個部分這個報告那個主委有看過嗎這個歐盟的河岸管制組織來台灣的時候給的建議不知道主委有沒有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9948.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9976.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我自己是没有看过那请主委再去看一下因为美国的这个部分是指一个一般性的那欧盟的这个核安管制组织给我们是针对台湾现在做的当时做的所以呢根据那个内容我这次为了就是质询特别再看了一次专家十年前就建议有三项重点要纳入第一个极端天然灾害地震海啸水灾台风第二个 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9977.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10005.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
喪失安全系統因為外部因素導致喪失電力的處理方式第三個嚴重事故的處理核災發生的時候你有可能道路斷裂或者是地震專業人員無法及時抵達的處理機制核安會是不是可以把你們剛剛的有一個依法的其他經主管機關指定的文件把這三項也納入請他們提供然後你們再專業審查可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10007.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10032.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
跟委員說明那有關於當時候歐盟專家所提的意見那核安會已經整理核管案件那也持續在辦理那針對耐震的這部分那我們也特別關注就是把它納進來也就是說要求台電公司機組如果要繼續運轉的時候要針對地震的可能危害那以及包括相關的安全防護都要納入整體的評估來確保整個機組 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10034.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10052.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那我知道光地震這一項監察委員的報告今年11月田秋瑾等趙詠卿蔡崇義三位監委的報告就講到就是地震的風險剛剛張雅玲委員也有提到就是說耐震非常的不足所以這些東西都必須要提供喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10054.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10081.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那這部分所涉及的可能的危害包括地震海嘯這部分都有納進來都有納進來所以都會請他們依照這三項都會納入審查沒錯吧這個有關於是電力的那個你講的一些語言因為我們不是專業未必懂這三項歐洲專家十年前就建議的這三項重點這一次都會請他們提供然後納入審核吧你只要說會還是不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10081.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10106.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
都有納入相關說明在會後給我報告好嗎這是關於審查的部分我們再次確定核安零風險今天我們還沒有機會講的重啟三條件核廢有解方核安零風險第三個社會有共識依照你們的專業理解核廢現在有解方嗎有或沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10111.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10125.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
主委 有或没有 现在何非啊这个议题会一直持续进行中对 现在连高阶的连法都还没出来目前有些国家处理方式很多人还认为不是最理想 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10126.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10141.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
有或没有解放台湾我们不能够送给其他的国家处理台湾有没有解放台湾现在选址条例都还没有对嘛连条例都没出来高阶的专法都没出来所以到目前为止没有解放好 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10142.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10166.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那再來我想要提一下危機來臨的時候核安風險那個主委您知道這個車諾比核電廠雖然就是他本身已經大家知道車諾比事件之後都已經停下來了那可是還是被無人機攻擊所以他的防護罩被損壞失去了主要的安全功能那烏克蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10167.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10185.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
剛剛也都有委員講到扎波羅熱核電廠是歐洲最大的核電廠不斷的遇到就是斷電的問題而且它也沒有辦法成為備電的這個暫時的備電電源這個部分就是主委都知道吧對 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10187.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10213.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
但是我针对这个议题跟核安会请教过核安会给我的报告不知道为什么你们的报告内容完全认为不会有任何的风险然后详细列了第一个你们认为我们的核电厂在战争的时候据说不会成为攻击的目标针对战争风险的准备列了11点都是场内的应变只有在第10点提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10214.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10240.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
由核子事故中央災害應變中心統籌國家救援能量協助鬥號結合全民防衛動員體系請問你們真的有跟全民防衛動員體系一起討論嗎這本裡面我翻了半天完全沒有如果發生烏克蘭的情況或者是像車諾堡的這部分到底附近的居民該怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10243.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10262.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
今天不管是停役或者重启都有同样的风险为什么里面都没有核灾发生的时候该怎么处理报告委员在小局书的第12页有针对核子事故的一个应变第12页我现在看了是我看不懂吗第12页的下方 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10263.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10288.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
下方只有三行停電立即進入室內關閉門窗打開電視機政府會在適當時機發佈民眾配合措施如疏散服用點片等因為這個是第一階段最緊急的時候要請民眾進到室內去作業所以我們恆春人或新北人台北人只值得這三行字 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10290.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10317.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那如果它在外面被輻射塵沾到了回家之後應該怎麼樣那個現在你可以不告訴我報告委員如果外面有輻射塵我們也是請民眾趕快進到室內去做掩蔽那因為輻射塵就是要洗手洗臉把它清掉之後那這裡面有告訴大家要洗手洗臉嗎因為小局數的部分是針對比較全民的我們另外還有核子事故的應變指南 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10318.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10332.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好那應變指南你有發給就是所有在風險區的民眾像小局書一人一本嗎有的有的是那我的我的老家在新北淡水我們並沒有拿到像這樣的一個小局書啊請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10334.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10362.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那我想告诉大家的就是说请参考一下月前式以下我们有月前式的就是防止核灾和指南那他有讲到的非常清楚我们刚刚所讲的稳定性点片是怎么使用可以事前就使用然后如果是核灾的时候你去相关的避难地点的时候必须像这样穿雨衣要戴口罩手也要戴手套脚不能穿凉鞋 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10363.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10376.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
如果是在室內外面回來的時候衣服要脫掉相關的衣服要把它放在袋子裡頭進行隔離等等連氣窗都要關起來這些大家都知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10378.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10400.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這本裡面都沒有因為依照烏克蘭的經驗它是有可能複合式發生的我們不希望發生但是有準備是最好的是不是針對這個部分你們要怎麼樣能夠不管是日本月前市的水準或者是小局書的補充是不是能夠給本席一個報告因為朝偉已經站起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10401.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10421.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好不好 可以參照辦理嗎在我們的核子事故應變指南其實都有相關的內容請把你們發放的範圍內容就是因為我在新北的居民家裡至少沒有看到小橘樹現在都還沒有發普遍我在台北市的家中也還沒收到所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10421.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10450.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這個有沒有發放跟有沒有針對每個居民潛在風險區的都人手一本是很大的差距好不好可以把你們發放的範圍跟內容跟本席然後這本裡面是不是可以如果有改版的機會不要只有三行字所有在合一合二合三場合四附近的居民都值得一個更嚴肅的對待有準備最安全好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10451.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10464.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好 給本席一個報告 多久之內可以給我兩星期可不可以兩星期你們準備得出來 好 兩星期喔 謝謝召委 謝謝主委好 謝謝范雲委員 那行政官員請回座現在請伍麗華委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10481.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10484.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
謝謝主席有請主委有請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10491.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10519.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
主委好 委員好今年5月核管法修法之後我們有看到新聞就是台電會把再運轉計畫預計是明年的3月就會提送給你們核安會那麼我們也看到你們特別提到核一廠大概就是除役了雖然要40加20但是停機已經多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10520.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10540.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
但是你們評估核二核三是OK的那麼核二的部分他要先移除反應爐內的燃料燃料池進空之後才提報那核三的話因為是剛停機所以你們覺得設備是維持良好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10541.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10566.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
有再運轉的一個可能性好那現在我也看到一個新聞就是彭啟明這個環境部的部長他聽到這個台電會把再運轉計畫送到河安會他希望河安會要去做環評將環保納入考量先請教一下主委你的意見如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10569.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10571.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
核安会的职责是确保核电的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10573.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10586.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
輻射對環境影響的評估就是核安會責任核安會這方面也會負起完全的責任保證所以你們會啟動環評會啟動環評保證會對這方面做好環境的評估其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來協商討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10601.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10605.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好 那您看看就是這個換發執照的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10607.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10635.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
整體性老化評估及老化管理報告實現老化分析報告相關中期安全分析報告運轉技術規範增修內容輻射相關液體查核評估報告耐震安全評估說明其他經主管機關指定文件所以我不太了解 諸位您剛剛說您非常支持一定會納入去做環境的評估那不曉得是在哪一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10637.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10661.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
輻射相關議題的評估報告就會包括對環境的影響環境影響評估報告就是我們核安會的職權所以您說第四項輻射相關議題查核評估報告這個就是環境評估報告對 輻射對環境影響評估就是我們核安會的責任好 所以您只做輻射環評的這個部分你只負責輻射單項 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10664.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10684.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
其他的議題是交給台電嗎其他的議題我們會跟環境部來討論好 謝謝因為我們在礦業法修法的時候當時我們也做了一件事情因為以前是他們說你的祖先同意我挖 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10685.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10711.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就表示它永遠可以挖 沒有這回事嘛所以我們礦業法修法之後如果你要研你也必須要做部落諮商同意那現在一樣當年也沒有環評所以也沒做過可是現在既然要研議我想這個部分 淑慧妳剛剛的態度我們也聽到了 妳是很支持的妳覺得該做 而且妳們也會做 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10712.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10726.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我們對環境 輻射方面我們會做的那謝謝喔那現在我就是要請教另外一個問題喔就是你們有沒有將在地居民的意願納入審查評估的項目裡面我沒看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10732.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10747.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
跟委員說明那個運轉執照申請的審核辦法相關的技術文件所必須要審查的要項我們都是參考美國的做法然後拉進來我們有自己中華民國的法律延續法都有結果你參照美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10750.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10773.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
跟委員報告說明那換照主要的精神是在確認說機組的設備在未來的繼續運轉期間能夠完全運轉不是只有礦業法啦現在所有的再生能源啦每一個都會踐行只要是公有地傳統領域都要遵照原基法踐行部落諮商同意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10774.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10783.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這個是其他的部會都已經在做的事情所以我想這個部分因為我沒有看到那我想請教一下主委 這個怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10791.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10813.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好沒有關係我希望你們就是要去找園民會來討論一下那我希望這個部分我等一下最後的時候我再做一個比較清楚的訴求的要求那另外我想要請教一下因為我看到行政院的國家永續發展委員會下有一個非核家園的小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10814.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10828.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那麼他最後一次開會是110年的4月已經蠻久了所以我想要請教一下主委這個行政院的非核家園推動小組他好像已經沒有再開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10829.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10848.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
也沒有積極的督促經濟部或台電針對低階核廢的最終處置或者是高階核廢的一個處理的嚴厲的立法所以我只想請教我們核安會的主委你覺得這個非核家園小組還有沒有存在的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10854.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10870.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這應該請行政院來回覆沒有啊 我只是請教您啊你是要推動核的啊我只是問說那個推動非核的你覺得他們那個小組還有存在的必要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10872.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10884.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
因為核安會執掌只是核安管制方面的工作我當然知道啊所以我只是請教您你覺得它有沒有存在的必要反正你們已經也要提報再運轉計畫了 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10889.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10904.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
報告委員這個非核家庭的專案小組其實是行政永續會所成立的那這個成立當年成立這個有它的目的那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10905.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10933.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
目前是開會開到第六次那為了進一步來探討核後端相關議題那核安會我們在今年的4月10號有去見請發函非核小組來希望他們能夠來推動第七次那你那個公文給我辦公室好不好第七次我們促請非核小組來因為我們大家都很納悶啊還要不要推非核家園啊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10935.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10959.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好來那下一個部分我也想再請教就是我們看到新聞日本福島第一核電廠它要進行第17次排放寒川廢水那核安會這邊的報告也看到了你們的儀表板都是不合格件數0000也就是都很合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10960.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10978.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但是我想請教一下因為你們的採樣是色跟川但是核種類很多啊例如什麼呢碳14.129啊請教一下主委這一些你們沒有在檢測嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10981.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11007.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
跟委員報告碳14我們在113年已經研發完成今年我們就按照新的方法在檢測所以第18次排放的時候我們會看到碳14就對了不是 我們目前對碳14的檢測魚類的檢測目前看起來都跟國際的但是我們沒有看到你們儀表板有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11009.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11027.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
很多人也想看到碳14.129那我們回去來檢討一下我們希望下次看到好不好是因為這個不重要這個核種不重要沒有安全疑慮還是因為我們的技術檢測技術沒有達到我們的技術是沒有問題那技術沒有問題我就安心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11036.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11064.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
主要是我們目前監測的核種是以川跟色為主但是很多人不這麼想啊核的種類那麼多為什麼每次看到你們就檢測這個川所以大家有疑慮啊所以我才來問啊那既然檢測技術沒問題下次就給我們好不好所以我剛剛以上所提的就是希望說兩個月內可以找原民會或者找衛福部環境部 國科會 中研院就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11066.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11088.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
針對這一些到底要不要做部落諮商同意要不要做環評怎麼做還有這些川以外的河種到底它對人體的危害的風險還有控管標準能夠提出一個報告可以嗎 主委好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝武力華為行政官員回座 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11097.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11123.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
請葉元之委員質詢你好主席好 麻煩請主委好 我請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11130.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11136.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
主委好首先我覺得今天剛剛很多委員包括民進黨委員在內我非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11137.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11159.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
肯定大家終於能夠就事論事來討論核電是否延誼的問題我記得今年初那時候我們要通過核管法的時候當時只是希望讓核電廠有延誼的機會那至於說核電廠到底能不能延誼當然就必須經過大家的討論跟核安會對核安的確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11161.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11189.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
可是在修核安法的時候呢民進黨的立委通通亂罵一通像那個范雲他說核電重啟會有國安風險會造成經濟成本越來越高我也不知道他在講什麼一個張雅玲立委更扯他說核電廠如果研議就是要為中國攻台開方便之門這個已經抹紅抹到我不知道他在講什麼了如果按照這樣說法的話童子賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11191.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11206.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
總統府的這個顧問前兩天才獲中華民國核能學會頒發特殊奉獻獎就是因為他多次倡議核電對經濟發展以及台灣的重要性難不成童子賢也是在幫中共開後門 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11207.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11236.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以難得今天大家在討論這件事情的時候都能夠就事論事而不是只要講到核電就一堆口水讓大家實在是很難討論下去所以今天我還是要表達一下對於今天整個過程是感覺到非常欣慰民進黨的人忠於理性不會動不動就抹紅那以下就就幾件事情跟主委請教一下第一個有關於剛剛大家也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11237.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11259.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
很多人在講說核電廠到底要不要環評那這個問題應該是問環境部但環境部就推給核安會就說這個就叫核安會來政策環評那我先表達我的立場我覺得本來核安會就會做這個事情根本不需要環境部叫你們做這個事沒錯吧你本身就會針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11263.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11292.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
相關的 譬如說地質的問題 河岸的問題你會做評估嘛對 輻射輻射嘛 對不對所以我不太知道彭啟明在指導你們是要你們做什麼你知道他的意思嗎是他意見嘛你知道他的意見是什麼嗎 他要你幹嘛他有跟我們溝通嘛他要你幹嘛嘛我們兩個單位之間一直有溝通啊不是啦 他叫你幹嘛嘛主委 我意見溝通內容是什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11293.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11300.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
問A答B好不好這個問題有那麼難回答嗎他要你幹什麼我知道他要你幹什麼他是希望指導你要你幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11302.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11323.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們核安會對輻射對環境影響評估他要你做輻射對環境影響評估你本來沒有要做嗎本來就是我們對啊 那就給說這環境部長給說講這要幹嘛所以有要做環評嗎除了他講的叫你做要做一般的那個環評法裡面的環評沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11324.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11336.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
他好像不是這個意思不是這個意思嗎其他的環境議題因為為什麼會這樣問因為很多人都覺得說彭其民講這個話很奇怪然後也不要逢何必反 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11338.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11361.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
就像很多人也提到啊 像興達電廠演繹興達電廠這跟你無關啦興達電廠是火力發電廠演繹是說演就演啊沒有看到任何人出來講說要叫他去做環評啊政策環評啊 我聽都沒聽過只有對核電要做政策環評這就是故意讓人家難免會覺得在卡希望核電廠的演繹時程延後啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11363.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11386.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個經由主委的嘴巴上證實他講有講沒講其實是沒有任何意義啦我們不要這種做無謂的這種發言我是說環境部啦導致大家又認為說你們是不是在卡那我就不懂為什麼卓院長宣誓說2028最快可以重啟研議我就不懂了院長說要研議然後部長一直讓人家感覺在卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11387.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11414.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那我來問一下時程啦因為卓院長是已經定一個目標啦說最快2028但實際上我們都知道他的程序大概有幾個嘛第一個台電是說明年三月經濟部已經核定了台電的計畫了嘛明年三月會送到河岸會對吧那卓院長講說大概要經過一年到一年半的審查對吧所以這樣子就到了大概最快就到2027年可能三月 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11415.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11442.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
核安會就可以核定這個再運轉的計畫沒錯吧我說最快開始審查對不對 最快嘛因為明年三月就送了嘛卓院長說要花大概一年到一年半我們看上一頁他講的一年半到兩年所以最快的話就是2027年的大概九月份2027九月份就可以審查完畢最快啦這個是卓院長定的目標啦2027的九月嘛然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11444.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11471.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
在運轉計劃核定之後經營者應該要依計劃執行執行完然後提執行結果報告然後主管機關再根據申請的檢附的文件再予以核定換發運轉執照使得莊田核子燃料那這個部分需要多久16條之二規定的這個部分需要多久審查的期限很難給個大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11473.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11492.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為誤差也可能蠻多的不是啦 你這樣子講那卓院長怎麼講得出2028這個數字那當然是理想狀況是這樣子理想狀況2028所以最快嘛那最理想狀況最理想狀況是2028應該是最快怎麼感覺好像卓院長比你還熟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11494.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11510.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
怎麼卓院長都講得出一個目標然後你怎麼都講不出來主委你來這邊好像沒有很認真回答問題耶我剛剛已經幫你算了嘛你明年3月收到這個計畫卓院長說要花一年半到兩年所以最快就是2027年的9月 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11512.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11526.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那2020年9月現在根據16條之二這個再運轉計畫核定之後他一計畫執行然後再提出執行結果報告然後換發運轉執照這個過程要多久我只問的問題這麼簡單大概多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11529.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11547.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
最快跟委員說明那除了再運轉計畫是明年3月台電公司會提出來那主要目的是要將電廠的設備恢復回來那另外還要根據16條16條是換照的一些安全我現在就在講16條16條這是16條之二還有一個16條16條就是台電公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11553.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11569.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
說明需要1.5年到2年時間會去完成那個老化評估這部分16條所以按照時程算起來就是2027年的6月或9月期間台電公司才會把16條的安全評估報告送到會裡面來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11570.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11595.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你再講一次2027的幾月大概如果照算的話2027的6月或2027的9月期間2027 6月或9月我們抓快一點了說2027 6月嘛那送來審查你們要審多久那就是按照國際的經驗就是如果文件完備然後現場設備也都OK那理想狀況應該是在2028年左右2028的什麼時候初 中 末 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11598.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11623.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
下半年比較有可能2028下半年比較有可能2028下半年比較有可能研議對…2028上面…這是最理想狀況最理想狀況你們也是這樣子建議卓榮泰院長嗎沒有…你沒建議他那他自己碰到的中間變數很多因為…那他怎麼會講出2028這個數字不是你們建議的所以我們行政院除了核安會之外還有另外一個有關核電研議審查的幕僚單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11627.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11628.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11633.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11657.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
因為我們審查才知道哪些地方需要改善還有我們審查意見呢台電回復的速度等等不用一直歸納強調真我的意思是說卓院長講2028這件事情是你們跟他有分析過嗎還是你剛剛說卓院長說沒有嘛那他為什麼有這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11661.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11678.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
因為審查是在你們這邊嘛所以他這個數字是這是你們跟他講的不是你們沒有講所以他是從別人的那邊得到這個2028可能可以他自己根據經驗就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11681.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11703.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
2028因為剛剛跟另外一位說的時間一樣嘛2028末嘛就是台電公司跟經濟部他們是參考國際的經驗來推估所以是台電跟經濟部跟他講的推估時程好那再來既然連院長都已經宣誓要重啟我提醒一件事情第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11705.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11718.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
因為我們現在這個社會還有很多人對於核電有莫名的恐懼希望你們可以加強宣導我有去看你們的YouTube其實那個點閱率都很低還有影片是沒有點閱的這滿難想像的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11721.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11742.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
當然你們可能會講說宣傳預算有限什麼之類可是我覺得這不是藉口因為實際上你搭配社會上面熱門話題或者是根據大家討論的事情去做出回應也可以達到宣傳作用我舉個例子來講像之前有一個民進黨的青岩才俊民進黨台北市的重要幹部他跑到蘭嶼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11743.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11771.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
低結核廢料的儲存場去放水放了一個晚上之後他覺得那個水很可怕被汙染然後就要求國民黨人去喝結果國民黨的人比較有核能知識就一飲而盡就那個人還嚇一跳講說怎麼可能原來可以喝喔就連執政黨的青年才俊重點培養對象都對核能有那麼錯誤的認知代表核安會根本沒有在宣導啊那個我先問主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11772.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11800.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
請問一下把礦泉水放到蘭嶼的低階核廢料儲存場放一個晚上那個水就不能喝了嗎就會嚴重的輻射污染嗎如果那個瓶子封閉得很好的話應該還好啦如果怎麼樣封閉 密封得很好那到底封閉得好不好蘭嶼的那個低階核廢料儲存場封閉得好不好目前來說我們是放心的你放心嘛可是民進黨不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11801.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11823.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
民進黨不知道啊你有沒有覺得很誇張就連執政黨都不知道耶所以像這種這麼誇張的事情你們和安會出來解釋說社會大眾不要亂特別是執政黨好不好這種不要故意製造恐懼你的點閱率一定很高啦絕對很高啦但你們不做你們不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11824.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11851.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以我是提醒啦既然我們現在已經朝向要延逸重啟的方向宣傳就很重要因為到時候類似民進黨青年才俊幹的這種事情應該會層出不窮啦希望你們利用這個機會多做宣導好不好可以嗎不是謝謝我的意見啦 可不可以啦我是要求這樣子做啦因為到時候一定會遇到類似的那不然大家都每天要強迫別人喝水啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11852.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11869.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這是我們一直在做的事情你就做不好啊你那時候有去跟那個民進黨的那個青年財軍說不給那個水沒問題你有做這事嗎我們會繼續努力我們繼續努力不要說空話啦這個要做啦要做啦不要講到執政黨你就不敢講了好不好謝謝謝謝韋恩好 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11874.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11893.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
謝謝葉元之委員 謝謝陳主委請回座這個其實是一個好方向 要澄清 可能要中立就對了中立就是把一些疑慮把它去除掉是非常重要的尤其是我們年輕人 需要這樣的一個重要資訊請羅廷維委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請何主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11904.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11931.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
請陳主委好 陳主委你好委員好主委我一直很關心河島這個河廢水啊排放的一個事情多次的跟您做這樣子的一個諮詢詢問那對於河岸會的赴日查查都很關注我們在這一次呢我有之前對於你這個大雄分析研究中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11932.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11961.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
做第三方的檢測單位沒有拿到iOS的一個事情也都特別的關注在這邊質疑但是我為掌握日本的排放源頭現況我想 河岸會也很積極的在10月13到18日有進行第六次的赴日實地的一個審查那我想有去做這樣子的一個觀察請問這一次赴日觀察具體參訪的哪些地點跟設施可不可以跟我們分享一下重點有哪些見了誰交換了什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11962.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11986.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
重点是参观福岛第一核电厂还有福岛厨房中间储存设施以及JAEA大型分析研究中心以及掌握第一核电厨艺作业的安全管制的状况他见了哪些人我本人还有好几位会的同仁去参观 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11987.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12002.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
不是 我是說你見了哪些人不是說見了你日本管制機關的人長官我們都見過所以交換了哪些具體的意見還是你們只是去聽聽簡報而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12005.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12030.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我們對他的整個除污過程以及除疫的過程還有我們都有詳細的了解此外我們還特地去海邊採取海選樣品回來台灣做檢測對 不好意思我是說你們有沒有交換了什麼意見得到什麼樣的資訊還是只是單純你去聽簡報當然聽簡報也會了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12035.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12046.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
包括像人才培育 资讯沟通等等我们都有很充分的沟通他们碰到问题在哪里我们碰到问题在哪里我们都有很好的沟通 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12047.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12066.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
主委我想你回話的時候可以再更有自信因為這樣子我想全國人民都在看我們的直播我們在這個詢問的過程當中我想有一點點支支吾吾的感覺都會讓人家覺得說到底我們花了這些錢花了這些考察那到底我們去得到了些什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12066.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12084.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我就實際問你我不刁難你或許在打詢的過程當中您不一定是可以很暢所欲言但是我想內容有沒有很實際的讓全國人民能夠來審查我想第六次的赴日實地的考察完整報告什麼時候會放在網路上 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12088.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12111.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
跟委員報告我們現在初稿已經完成那我們預計大概在這個一個月之內就可以放到網路上一個月之內是主委可以承諾一個月之內可以嗎沒有問題我們再來看實際的考察具體的內容讓全國人民來看一下另外第二個跟你請問河山重啟的案件經濟部11月28號宣布 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12112.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12135.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
以通過台電提交的這個相關核電廠的現況評估報告並確認核二核三有可以再啟動的一個潛力台電預告將於2026年3月我想這個大家都知道今天都談了一整天了大家都很關心那核安會準備好了嗎準備接他的這個相關的評估報告來啟動核安會的程序了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12136.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12162.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
可能會一直職責就一定會接受這個報告我當然知道你一定會接受你準備好了我想12月初經濟部龔明星部長在答詢的時候有指稱國際案例都在講國際案例就像你剛剛講的卓榮泰院長可能也是用國際案例去做評估審查約一年半最順利的情況是在2028年可能重啟剛剛你說2028的年終對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12166.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12193.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
下半年下半年好啦年終跟下半年啦好在這一波的對外溝通中我想核安會是最重要的一個審查機關但是呢好像只要我們的政府啊照程序來走就一定會通過整個社會的氛圍就好像是2028一定會重啟啊諸位你認同經濟部對外表示最順利的情況2028就一定會重啟的說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12196.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12200.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我們核安會一定會嚴格把關依照國際標準我當然知道你會嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12201.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12230.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
时程上我们很难给一个确定的日期但我认为经济部还有现在卓荣泰院长用所谓的国际惯例来做一个评估对外去做一个宣言如果台电的报告做得很完整我们审查意见他很快能够回复现场的设施管理得很好等等先决条件之下那可能就很顺利我认为不妥啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12230.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12253.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為核安會是最重要的審查機關沒有去會同你們的意見就對外不斷的放聲好像讓整個社會氛圍都知道2028一定會重啟我覺得這個是不夠謹慎我覺得核安最重要的是什麼安全至上這才是國人期待的那現在我們針對整個核二核三的再運轉計畫我們看到10日 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12258.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12276.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
環境部彭啟明部長表態了直接點名核安會他說核電重啟一環評法規定確實無需環評但希望核安會擔負更多的責任環境部也會從環境的角度督促核安會做相關的環境保護的因素納入審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12277.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12297.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
主委一個部會的首長直接公開點名另外一個部會要他多負點責任還說要督促和安會來做相關環境保護的因素納入審查我們看到這種行為在整個我們的體系行政體系來說很罕見主委有沒有要回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12299.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12321.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我觉得环境保护本来就是核安会很重要的责任辐射对环境影响评估这是核安会必须负起的责任也是唯一要负起的单位其他方面的环境影响我们会和环境部做沟通协调 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12323.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12340.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
彭部長提出意見我們當然是很感謝他的意見我相信你一定會做就你自己的工作去百分百的努力但是很罕見的竟然會被點名那我想會不會彭啟民部長的這個發言會影響到河安會的這個獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12342.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12362.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我覺得還好啦我沒有這個感覺啦我想彭啟明部長更直言核電的重啟關鍵是核廢料的處理跟核安的檢查這也是核安必須直接面對的問題我想對於彭部長現在所談的核廢料處理跟核安的檢查核安會的因應對策是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12366.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12374.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
跟委員說明那有關於核安這部分我們就是比照國際的做法就是美國的做法來進行一些安全的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12374.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12402.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那至於核廢料這部分我們還是要參考國際的做法現階段就是要進行乾燥設施的興建跟乾燥來處理那後續就是最終處置的話就是目前經濟部有專案的辦公室來推動最終處置這部分好 那剛剛您所說的不管是我們現在所面臨到核廢料的處理跟核安的檢查那請問一下你覺得環境部在這個過程中他可以扮演什麼角色你們怎麼合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12406.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12407.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我看你們再協調一下好了難得你被點名 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12431.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12455.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這個部分我是覺得很詫異啊怎麼會由他來督促你們啊這本來就是你應該核安核廢料就是你要做的啊我想倡議核綠共存的這一個核碩董事長啊童子賢也最近有表示啊台灣在經濟發展同時需要能源但台灣不生產能源因此能源的選項顯得非常重要有人說台灣地球人俠 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12455.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12475.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
不適合核能但他認為不妨參考比利時跟瑞士對能源的一個選擇歐盟就以實際的行動實現了核綠共存核綠共存可以在支持台灣經濟發展和民生需求的電力同時也改善空汙的一個影響諸位你知不支持核綠共存 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12478.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12495.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
核安會的職責就是保證核電能夠安全運轉我知道 這個我都知道你講的已經三次了至於核能源的政策或能源配比的問題這個不在核安會管制之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12496.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12514.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這應該我們可以尊重經濟部的意見好 謝謝 我也不再多做逼問了最後一分鐘 拜託一下 趙偉主委 我昨天 外環委員會排審身心障礙者權益保障法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12515.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12534.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
有幾個問題跟你就教一下也安排了身心障礙者權益保障的專案報告我們看到身心障礙者的權益保障法有規定各級目的事業主管機關辦理公共資訊無障礙的一個服務的時候要協助身心障礙者來參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12537.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12556.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
主委 河岸會有一個APP叫河岸一點通 對吧要換你了啦 剛剛只是前言而已這個APP作為民眾了解河能安全緊急應變資訊的重要管道請問其公共資訊無障礙化的具體辦理進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12559.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12585.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
謝謝委員跟委員報告那我們也是遵照速發部推動的普及與深化政府網站與行動化應用軟體無障礙設計行動方案來辦理然後依照我們原來的這個排程我們會預計在115年年底前會完成整個無障礙的送檢那目前我們在明年的預算以及時程規劃上都已經做好準備以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12586.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12600.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我想速度要快這今天在這邊點一下身心障礙者數位參與是所謂的法律明文保障剛剛葉委員就在講我們的這個和安宣導身心障礙者也有權利去參與到這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12602.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12625.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
但是他們在這個河岸一點通裡面就沒辦法去點閱甚至沒有無障礙的這個APP對他們來說這就是一個資訊的剝奪嘛所以主委今天我在這邊提出也希望督促你們應該就你們的APP來做一個有效率的趕緊趕上 可以嗎可以 謝謝委員的意見好 謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員請行政官員回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12635.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12637.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
現在請翁曉琳委員質詢時間4分鐘好謝謝有請主委有請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12654.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12677.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好 陳柱惟好我想賴總統其實在很多場合裡面都有提到他不反對核電那麼也認為說接下來我們可能要發展的是先進核能技術或是新式的核能技術請問賴總統隨便你所講的不管是新興核能 先進核能或是新式核能技術到底是指什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12682.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12707.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
小型模组化核电厂是其中之一SMR还有核融核也是另外一个项目现在还有一些MMR微型反应器所以现在台湾我们主要的目标是想要推动什么SMR吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12708.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12734.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
目前我們對於未來是重點會在SMR的研究在研究本身要提醒的就是說因為我今天看到你們報告還在那裡講說SMR這個未來可能幾年都還不可能會有商轉但事實上我不知道主委知不知道其實中國大陸他們大概明年就會有一個小的這個SMR的廠預計會完工商轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12736.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12754.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
2026年那其他国家包含像英国等等最近的新闻也都说他们就开始在建厂在准备往这边做预估也是两三年就可能会完成会进行商转背景SM2的它的整个的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12755.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12774.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
建制还有它的运作开始运作等等的这些条件比要建这个大型核电厂要相对来说可能容易一些所以就目前何安慧这边有没有预估假设我们有厂商愿意要做的话最快几年之内就可以做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12777.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12806.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
報告委員像中國發展的是高溫氣能堆它製造的核廢料是13倍現在的所以這個應該不在我們選擇考量的範圍內那依照目前西方世界SMR的進程應該是4年到5年2030年左右才有真正商品化的產品出來它第一個要安全也要考慮第二個它要模組化所以應該是4到5年2030年左右才會有真正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12806.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12834.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那不管是四到五年或是我讲说可能更快也许明年最快明年可能或者是二三年重要的是说我们现在我们的这个核安会对于SM2的这个基础的定调还有就是说我们相关的法规准备好了吗我们现在的法规有提供足够的法律基础可以让一般的私人厂私人一般的企业自己去兴建SM2吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12836.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12853.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們的定業法現在是規定是核電廠業有供應但由主管特許之下可以有例外這是我們現在定業法裡面的所以你的意思是說定業法完全不需要修正只要主管機關特許就可以了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12856.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12883.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
跟委員說明那電業法第五條裡面是有寫到如果是私人要提出設置核電廠的話要由那個主管機關就是經濟部這部分要來同意其實不管那核安會的話就是如果要申請就是新的核能就是SMR這部分的核電廠的話那如果是清水式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12884.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12909.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
核設施那目前的核管法是可以因應適用的但是就剛才提到因為新型的話可能目前還在發展當中所以我們還會持續去關注整個發展的狀態跟法規的動態好 本席想要講的未來推動這SM2可能非常有就是會由台電以外的其他一些公司來進行建置甚至來維運 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12912.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12928.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那么所以在法规上面来说以我们现在电业法来讲基本上都是指的是大型的核电厂所以是以供应为准嘛那你如果说你说例外还要经过电业管制机关经过核安会还是经过经济部应该可能不是经过核安会而是经过经济部 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12929.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12954.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
核准设置对这应该不是属于核安会那这个部分会不会也会产生问题而且我们不管在环境评估环境评估相关法规等等是不是应该要赶快要做法治上面的准备甚至你核安会都要提案我不知道主委知不知道我有提电验法的修正案我知道针对小型的SMR嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12955.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12985.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
就30万以下的核能发电业者那么未来他基本上可能只要经过申请许可经过核安会那边同意就可以了这样才能够松绑现在我们就大家希望说未来如果说新建小型的核发电厂可以由一般的企业自己他们有能力筹资可以去做这样就不会一直把负担都是放在台电的身上这样的方式会不会更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12987.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13007.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
跟委員說明電業法第五條是應該是規範要設置核電廠的經營者核安委的角度就是說如果已經經過經濟部同意之後向核安委申請建廠執照後續的運轉維護管理這部分那就是由核安委那另外環比這部分就回到 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13008.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13031.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那個環境主管機關去了是 本期今天是要提醒你們的就是說因為看起來現在賴總統的這個方向就是要去推動新興的核能也許就是SMR然後你們自己現在核安會裡面這今年度所提的下年度的研究計畫裡面也是編了一億的計畫要去做相關的研究雖然說本期認為說這一億計畫的經費好像是過高 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13033.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13060.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
也就是一些paperwork的一些整理啊然後你們也沒有說要實際上要設置一個實驗型的小型的SMR的這個爐或什麼之類的那為什麼要這麼多的錢這當然是等到審預算的時候再來說可是呢本希望說和安會也許在法治作業上面可以加緊速度不要永遠都是法律跟在技術的後面如果說我們已經預見到未來台灣可能會朝這方面去做的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13060.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13084.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
不管是海岸的管制的相關法規或是環評等等都要啟動嘛我不能夠說等到事情發生了人家都要見了然後才發現沒有法律可以用所以可以請海岸會這裡也可以做一個相關的這個研究計劃嗎就是一個委託研究計劃類似把小型SNR所需要的法規評估都做 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13086.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13115.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
做一些研究或是說你們自己內部也可以做也不見得非得一定要提供一些委託研究計畫我們在明年會規劃外界的委託案學校方面好 我希望就除了說是委託研究計畫案之外另外你們自己內部也要盡速地把不管是大型小型的核電廠所需要的法規基礎都能夠先整理出來要stand by隨時要用的時候就可以上手 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13116.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13137.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
好 但就是今天我想主要就是提醒主委这个议题好 谢谢谢谢委员谢谢翁晓琳委员质询 官员请回座现在请钟嘉斌委员质询钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13139.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13153.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有林沛翔 鍾嘉斌 徐欣盈委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下的決定報告及質詢完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13156.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13176.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
委員所提的書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或為其答覆部分請河岸會相關的所屬機關速以書面來答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位 |