| IVOD_ID |
17113 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17113 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T08:38:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T12:06:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:27:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea9c8519356ec592c220c840b25a8f5cb0d5e67b2ed5162375de92cd774d71c72a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。
二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。
三、審查委員葉元之等 18 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:38:03 - 12:06:00 |
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1561.657 |
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請主任秘書報告出席人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1575.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1597.308 |
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立法院第十一屆第四會期內政委員會第十四次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年十二月三日星期三上午九時一分至十二時四十六分地點紅龍二零二會議室出席委員蘇喬惠委員等十四人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等十四人列席官員內政部部長劉思芳暨相關人員法務部政務次長徐錫祥暨相關人員行政院打旗詐欺指揮中心執行秘書王從勝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1598.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1615.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局副局長黃仲豪及相關人員司法院刑事廳副廳長顧正德及相關人員數位發展部數位產業署副署長黃雅平國家通訊傳播委員會經濟部交通部農業部財政部個人資料保護委員會籌備處等機關代表及相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1616.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1633.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席王昭紀委員美會報告事項宣讀上次會議實錄決定確定討論事項依審查行政院函請審議詐欺犯罪危害防止條例部分條件修正草案而繼續審查詐欺犯罪危害防止條例修正草案案計6案審查詐欺犯罪危害防止條例修正草案案計14案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1635.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1659.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
討論事項合併詢答委員李博義等十八人質詢分別由內政部部長劉世芳暨相關人員數位發展部數位產業署副署長黃雅萍行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心執行秘書王從聖金融監督管理委員會證券期獲取副局長黃仲豪暨相關人員法務部政務次長徐錫祥暨相關人員司法院刑事廳副廳長顧正德答覆說明登記發言委員處不在場則外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1660.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1681.912 |
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委員丁學忠高金素梅吳啟明林楚英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議依請司法院法務部及內政部針對委員提案或彼此不同意見先行協調整合二討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查條文及修正動議均已宣讀宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1688.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1714.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請問各位委員上次會議意識度有無錯誤或遺漏無錯誤意識度確定請繼續進行本次議程請宣讀1審查委員許智傑等38人擬拒宗教基本法草案2審查國民黨黨團擬拒宗教基本法草案案3審查委員葉元之等18人擬拒宗教基本法草案案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1721.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1749.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
本次議程所列討論事項合併巡打那現在介紹在場的委員及列席的官員首先介紹黃婕委員蘇曉慧委員李柏毅委員張志倫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1751.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1772.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
許智傑委員注意關鍵我們內政部劉思邦部長現在請提案委員說明提案要旨請許智傑委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1781.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1807.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席大家好關於這個宗教基本法的提案就是說有一些宗教界的跟我反應就是說希望說我們能夠讓我們國內的宗教人權能夠列入先進國家之列根據我們中華民國憲法第13條的規定人民有信仰宗教的自由當然就是說宗教是人類道德跟法律的先驗基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1808.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1834.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我們希望說它可以是一個自覺與自發的社會的安定的力量保障宗教人群的具體立法就是讓社會對宗教文化的不理解以及有一些少數對宗教缺乏尊重我們希望增加社會對宗教的不寬容心態的調整所以我這個提案也希望說在整個立法的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1835.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1858.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
希望能夠有機會通過宗教基本法來讓宗教受到更大的尊重那跟相當的一些具體的法案的執行那至於說這個規範宗教自有的保障範圍跟內容那當然就是說我們也希望說內政部提出具體的意見那我們來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1860.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1890.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
最恰當的修改看怎麼樣能夠符合這個保障宗教自由又能夠就是不逾越我們國家法令的原則下那能夠有一個比較適當的修改的法案的內容所以這個部分我們也請說讓內政部可以提供相關的意見讓大家可以著參那最後能夠有機會定出一個整個宗教基本法的一個大綱然後不會去逾越到我們國家的法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1890.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1899.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這樣的原則下 我們來訂定那以上說明 謝謝謝謝許志傑委員的說明那接下來我們請內政部 劉世芳部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1910.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1934.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席趙薇早還有各位委員各位女士先生大家早首先感謝各位委員就內政業務在推動的關注跟指導那今天的委員會是審查許智傑委員等38人中國國民黨黨團還有葉元芝委員等18人所提的宗教基本法的草案一共有三個案那內政部應邀列席報告及備詢深感榮幸 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1934.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1951.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那經過我們的這個研查國民黨團版本與葉委員葉委員原資版本僅相差一個字那至於徐委員智傑版本與上述葉委員原資及中國國民黨黨團兩個版本在第一條第二條第五條的差距比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1952.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1968.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那至於第三條第四條第六條的規定是一致的只有在文字上做調整那本部呢就上述的三項這個所提出的這個草案呢提供意見如下敬請委員來參考第一大項就是以憲法保障為核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1968.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1988.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
目前世界上並沒有以基本法為名而訂定的宗教基本法的國家多在憲法當中訂定宗教自由保障的原則並且在一般法律當中予以落實規定或分別擅見於各種法規跟判決當中並沒有專門制定宗教基本法以保障宗教人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1989.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2018.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二我國憲法在第7條第13條明定宗教平等與宗教自由的原則那第憲法第23條以上各條列舉之自由權利除為了為了防止妨害他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序或者增進公共利益所必要者外不得以法律限制之明定限制各項自由權利的比例原則是以憲法第13條之宗教信仰自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2019.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2036.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
與憲法保障之其他自由權利一樣應該受到憲法第23條法律限制的規範第三項司法院釋字第490號第573號的解釋也以明確規定宗教自由的範圍及國家得以法律訂定的界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2037.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2055.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
司法院釋字第490號解釋更進一步說明外在宗教行為之自由與宗教結社之自由在必要之最小限度內仍應該受到國家相關法律的約束非可以宗教信仰為由而否定國家及法律的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2056.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2078.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
至于草案逐条在说明当中虽然有引用公民与政治权利国际公约以及经济社会文化权利国际公约以下简称两个公约作为保障宗教信仰自由的法律依据但是两公约已经国内法化其内容仅具有国内法的效力也不得逾越我们宪法的规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2080.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2106.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第二大項有關草案條文的探討在本次三個版本草案當中皆有若干條文恐怕會造成宗教自由凌駕於其他自由權利的情形且涉及其他法律的執行異議影響國家法治架構現在分數如下一草案未指明宗教及宗教團體之定義或範圍三個版本皆沒有指明宗教及宗教團體之定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2107.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2136.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
倘若宗教及宗教團體包括一切未登記立案未正常運作之宗教團體將導致現行宗教法制的問亂影響監督寺廟條例辦理寺廟登記須知宗教團體不動產以自然人名義處理暫行條例財團法人法第75條第二項宗教財團法人之範圍內政部審查全國性宗教財團法人設立許可及監督要點以及人民團體法等現行的法制規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2138.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2164.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第二草案第一条立法目的使宗教自由优于其他法律国民党党团以及业员之委员草案版本第一条第一项规定立法目的细谓落实宗教治理原则同条第二项规定信仰相关事物全数适用本法规定其他法律有特别规定限于无妨害宗教自由及其行使权利将使宗教自由权利优先于其他法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2165.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2189.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
換一句話說 當其他的法律妨礙宗教自由急需退讓恐導致宗教行為如有違反包括國土計劃法 農業發展條例建築法 水土保持法 山坡地保育利用條例國家公園法 動物保護法 野生動物保育法公益勸募條例 所得稅法 勞動基準法教育基本法 噪音管制法 廢棄物清理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2190.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2208.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
道路交通管理處罰條例社會秩序維護法空氣污染防治法爆竹煙火管理條例性別平等工作法性騷擾防治法性別教育法兵役法施行法消防法地方製度法文化資產保存法等相關法律時即不得據以處理之情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2210.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2229.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第三第二條宗教自由之保障範圍極度寬廣而且宗教自治第二條第三項列舉十類宗教行為自由如建立及保持宗教場所自由傳播宗教自由製造取得和使用宗教儀式所需品自由接受捐款自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2230.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2258.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
宗教節日自由其他表明及行使宗教信仰相關作為的自由等同條第四項並且規定宗教團體得自主規範並且管理自身事務也就是宗教自治由於上開宗教行為自由未有但書或界限表示宗教團體可以主張內部事務而排除國家規範形成宗教內部治外法權外部將無法監督會引發大量以宗教自由為名的訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2259.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2282.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第四 第三条第四项宗教行为被高度扩张第三条第四项规定宗教团体凡是基于教制教义传统戒律等宗教仪式或活动即不得被剥夺或限制许多活动包括放生晒神珠烧纸钱放鞭炮庙会活动等一旦被宗教界主张是基于教义传统恐将不得限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2283.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2307.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第五 第五條宗教立法一律歸中央剝奪地方治理能力第五條規定宗教事務應由國家以法律定之不得授權地方自治團體定定因為地方制度法明定宗教輔導事項為直轄市縣市自治事項當本條將原本賦予地方政府之宗教輔導自治權予以限縮以違反憲法保障地方自治的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2309.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2337.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
第三大項有關宗教界的看法本草案為宗教界之重要事項經洽詢各宗教代表組成的內政部宗教事務諮詢委員會大多數委員表示有待商榷主要理由包括一草案在宗教事務諮詢委員之間尚未形成共識多認為現階段並無推動宗教基本法立法的必要性跟急迫性第二如果要推動宗教基本法宗教團體法或宗教法人法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2338.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2359.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
應該取得不同宗教的最大公約數 凝聚更多共識 使條文更增周延再延續推動第三 宗教團體自身有高道德要求 亦需符合政府法律規範不應以提升宗教自由為名侵害他人權利 以免外界誤解宗教及被污名化 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2360.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2386.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
結語的部分我國憲法保障宗教自由政府歷年來皆致力於落實憲法以及兩公約的宗教自由跟平等原則且有關公權力介入宗教事務並受到憲法兩公約施行法司法院大法官解釋以及其他相關法律之拘束與規範草案當中有關宗教自由的保障已有更高層次的憲法保障規定原無必要再另行 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2387.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2410.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
制定宗教基本法 以免跌床嫁屋 置私欲焚內政部為了維護宗教團體組織之運作與發展並且解決宗教團體長久面臨的土地建物稅賦以及法律地位等問題仍將聆聽各界意見與建議維持持續維持研議宗教團體法草案或宗教法人法草案等宗教法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2411.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2431.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
此一為宗教界能夠認同之最大公約數期盼能夠具體回應宗教團體需求以及社會期待建請委員能夠審慎考量以上報告感謝委員指教謝謝謝謝劉思芳部長的報告接下來我們請葉元之委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2439.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2464.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
主席各位同仁以及在座的行政部的官員大家好今天我們提出宗教基本法草案其實核心初衷非常單純就是肯定宗教對台灣社會的貢獻並將國家對宗教的態度從消極的管理轉化為積極的保障與協助因為宗教其實是非常上位的自由人身自由那宗教在台灣不僅 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2466.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2495.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
撫慰人心更是社會安定的基石但是長期以來我們雖然嘴上說宗教自由但在法律的層面卻缺乏一部上位的基本法來作為政府施政的準則但是我們非常遺憾看到內政部昨天發一個新聞稿就急著出來反對內政部的理由是說因為憲法已經有保障宗教自由了所以不需要位階較低的基本法說會跌床架屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2495.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2507.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是難道是憲法有保障就不需要立基本法嗎我們現在有教育基本法那難道憲法就沒有保障受教權嗎我們也有環境基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2508.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2537.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那但是憲法徵修條文也有提到環保啊我們還有文化基本法客家基本法原住民族基本法海洋基本法通訊傳播基本法零零總總加起來包含新通過新住民基本法和道路安交通安全基本法總共有11部的基本法所以如果按照內政部的邏輯難道這11部法律都是廢紙嗎都多此一舉嗎所以不懂為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2537.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2563.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
提到宗教就拿憲法出來當擋箭牌那我們以112年三讀通過的道路交通安全基本法為例憲法當然保障人民的生存權與行動自由可是我們為什麼還要立這個法因為我們要確立臨死亡的終極政策目標確立政府跨部會的責任所以宗教是台灣最美風景之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2563.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2583.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們既然已經為這麼多剛剛講的不管是各個政策目標或各個對象定定的基本法當然就不應該獨露宗教所以希望大家可以來支持宗教基本法草案讓我們展開實質的審查建立更完善的宗教法治環境謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2586.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2604.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
謝謝葉元之委員的提案說明那其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行尋答委員尋答質詢前遠離座以下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2605.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2623.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
非本會委員發言5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記二本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見沒有意見那現在進行詢問請登記第一位的舒喬會委員好謝謝主席我們請劉思芳劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2636.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2637.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
請部長部長好部長雖然今天是宗教基本法的審查但我想先問您一個實事題目就是其實我們在上個月的時候國際刑警組織大會有在摩洛哥開會但是一直到昨天我們看到了這個國際組織司也就是外交部系統他發了一篇新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2662.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2690.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那除了感謝友邦為我們講話希望能讓台灣加入國際刑警組織之外同時也強烈的譴責國際刑警組織基於政治的考量排懼我們台灣再次的排懼我們加入這個組織那外交部都出聲了內政部呢內政部部長您的立場非常謝謝委員的指教我們都了解國際刑警組織呢他不只拒絕台灣加入這個國際刑警組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2692.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2697.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
同時他也把台灣是中國的一部分這樣政治性非常強的色彩放到裡面去我們當然是強烈的反駁同時也跟委員報告在這期間我們的包括刑事局長在內我們在全球各地的媒體已經有大概有270篇以上要求全球的刑警組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2715.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2727.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
希望可以納入台灣的警察因為台灣的警察在打擊犯罪呢我們很樂意跟全球的民主國家一起來合作是 部長我想是這樣子齁其實世界國際的這個國際刑警組織沒有台灣的加入其實反而是世界的損失啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2732.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2746.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們可以看從2016年這個一營ATM到零案2017年的遠東銀行的駭客案其實都是世界級的大案但是呢都是犯罪行為在台灣被台灣的刑警發現之後破獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2747.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2763.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
而且把這個資料傳遞回世界然後這個案才算是一個有重大突破進展所以台灣的刑警的能力台灣的這個防治安防罪的這個犯罪防治的能力真的是有目共睹 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2764.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2779.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那我想大家也都非常努力啦我們台灣要加入國際組織其實也不是一蹴可擊所以也很感謝這次已經有到八個友邦替我們講話那我是覺得部長這邊因為我們目前看到的是外交部在國內 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2779.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2796.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
也讓國人了解這件事情我是建議內政部除了對國際投書之外對國內的部分也可以再多做一點表示跟說明跟上這個我們整個政府整體的概念這是我對內政部的期望這是第一個要跟部長溝通我們會來遵守辦理委員的指教我們馬上來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2800.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2822.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
第二個我們回到宗教的事物我也想請司長一起上台看如果有機會的話等一下可以一起回答我想部長跟司長非常榮幸在週末星期六的時候來到了新北的樹林因為我們新北樹林濟安宮有一個五朝元教這是一個非常重大的慶典很感謝行政團隊由內政部長和宗教理事司長親自到現場參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2827.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2842.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以大家可以看到其實宗教在台灣真的真的是非常非常重要的事物你可以看到我們光是新北我就可以舉例給你看你看樹林濟安宮那天你們有參與好來那再一個你看野柳的神明進港 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2843.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2863.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這不但是有疑點而且是包含了過去我們先祖在這裡的生活方式的呈現這是漁民在一段時間之後他除了對上天的感謝也是對這個地方的祈安所以他是包含了生活文化在裡面那甚至呢有這個大家熟知的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2864.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2883.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
野柳神明進港過火的這個部分但是你看下圖的部分剛剛的那一頁的下圖的部分他們甚至分成兩個地方左下的這張是更為傳統的他還要真正的赤腳過火上面其實還有一些傻眼等等的這樣的狀態那再有你看看我們甚至是下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2885.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2900.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
淡水清水巖淡水大拜拜清水祖師的遶境甚至是新莊新莊地藏庵的文武大眾爺的聖誕這個都是整個城鎮可以動起來所以我想表達的是說你看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2900.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2924.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
宗教的據點其實對一般人來講你說可能是去拜拜 沒有在地方鄉親他甚至是一個修器文化健康長照等等各式各樣的場合都可以在這裡發生場域是如此而活動的部分甚至是傳承了文化和你去生活共同記憶的一個部分所以我現在看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2925.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2939.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們2024年有宗教禮儀司開始制定了我想請問宗教禮儀司或者部長看您哪一位要回答就是你對地方宗教文化活動的推廣你現在有什麼策略和發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2941.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2967.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝委員對宗教活動一個支持尤其樹林建安宮全程跟我們部長去參與真的非常感動其實可以的話我其他都想請你來但是我想你應該沒有這個時間跟委員報告我們未來會積極來推動包括支持之外我們會我們包括他的活動然後更具有特色那我們未來會結合國光署然後將我們的宗教文化有特色的然後向國際然後行銷出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2968.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2997.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
司長你講到觀光署就是我想講的重點因為你看國際上面日本京都的紫園祭啊泰國的潑水節其實都帶來了大量上百萬數百萬的觀光人士那台灣現在最知名的是白沙屯媽祖嘛對不對那可是我們剛剛的這些一樣有機會可以發展成再升級成為城市國家級甚至是國際級的這就看有沒有新的概念可以進去帶動所以說起來啦我是知道你們現在有這個嘛你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2998.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3026.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
補助計畫有一個啊這個叫做創新吧是不是還是對不起我一時創新創新事務推動的這個計畫是今年的預算配置會是往哪個方向發展各位報告我們會盡量著重在比如說中央觀光是一個部分然後還有一個是國際論壇國際交流然後我們結合地方的特色然後把它行銷出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3027.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3052.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
內政部我看到內政部輔導宗教團體發展及促進宗教對話補助你的目的是為了鼓勵宗教團體民間學術團體還有大專院校從事宗教對話公益慈善跟社會教化學術交流與時俱進之宗教文化習俗及健全宗教團體的發展這是你這邊給我們的文字對不對可是我們可以看到其實現在台灣大概至少有17000個符合補助資格的團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3055.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3078.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
可是你核定的大概是55個只有0.3那這個狀況是鼓勵大家的還是是因為今年度的預算本身就不多所以核定的數額當然不多那未來如果說得到我們委的支持明年度的話預算多一點我們就會積極來輔導但是我看你明年度的國內的預算其實並沒有增加太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3080.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3093.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
國內的部分其實沒有增加太多跟委員報告其實我們有編了兩議那兩議裡面也包括國內的團體他只要說對他國際宗教交流論壇或宗教公安有注意的我們都會請你來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3094.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3120.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
其實市長還有部長還是請部長回應一下好了其實我要說的是說你看我剛剛給你看的這些其實它都不是什麼民間論壇它就是宗教活動事實上能夠帶動地方的認同感凝聚力還有傳承我們的文化甚至是帶來觀光人士的其實是這一類的活動所以我看到了這筆預算其實今年有大幅的增加我是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3121.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3138.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
不要只偏重論壇因為論壇有時候他比較會寫這個預算申請的報告這種的比較不會寫但我是希望內政部尤其宗教師您可以把目光放在這一類的宗教活動上面尤其是誰能夠帶來創新那大家都想變成像Manga一樣啊這個大鬧熱啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3140.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3156.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
蒙甲青山祭呀對不對他整個的狀態已經完全不一樣了我認為如果誰能夠提出這樣的計畫我希望中教師內政部中教師的補助可以往這個方向多一點部長可以我們謝謝委員的指教我們會朝這方面來努力好謝謝部長謝謝蘇喬威委員的質詢接下來我們請張志倫委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3173.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3180.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體先請大家早有請劉世芳劉部長請劉部長委員早部長早部長今天是要跟你請教有關於這個宗教基本法未來的可能的草案的制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3195.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3216.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那這個宗教基本法是一部這個已經拖了20年的法令因為在20年前我相信就很多委員還有很多的專家學者有說要來提出相關的草案那大家都知道宗教是這個撫慰人心是我們民間的溫暖的力量那其實也變成很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3217.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3237.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
人民心中的信仰那尤其這次我們看到那個我們這次的宗教基本法的草案就民進黨的許智傑委員他們有38名的民進黨的立法委員有簽署那本黨團也有然後也有18名的本黨團的委員有做連署的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3237.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3262.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以變成是說這個是現在不管執政黨跟在野黨都支持的一個法案可是我們看到內政部對宗教基本法的書面報告裡面一直強調一個論點就是認為憲法已經有保障宗教自由而有大法官的這個解釋為依據沒有必要再立宗教這個基本法可是我必須要跟這個部長解釋就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3264.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3284.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個憲法現在規定我們認為是比較抽象而且過去以來都是使用行政命令或地方自治的方式來去做一些限制那是不是有違反了憲法23條要求的這個法律保留的原則所以是不是請部長再說明一下說 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3285.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3307.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
因為你們在報告裡面一直覺得說這個宗教基本法會造成凌駕於所有法律之下感覺起來好像會天下大亂那是不是你們內政部因為他現在不管執政在內都有提出相關的修法你們內政部有沒有相關的版本還有內政部到底反對的理由是不是可以已經拖那麼久的反對理由是不是可以再說明一下 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3309.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3328.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝張委員的關心顯然那個張委員對於這個宗教的這個基本的發展方向有非常正確的觀念那但是為什麼歷經那麼多屆的立法委員都沒辦法推動我想一定有他的很多成因也就是說我們有很多宗教團體的不同的意見那大家都知道台灣的宗教非常的多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3329.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3349.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
不是只有佛教 道教 包括有很多我們比較不是了解它的教義的部分所以我們以憲法的精神來看或是兩公約的精神來看我們認為就是低度管理為原則但是這個低度管理不要去觸犯到我們剛剛在報告裡面所提到的這25條的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3351.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3372.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那但是呢有些宗教團體呢還是他的自律性很強他希望列進去那如果我們舉個例子來說就我們所接觸到的大部分的這個宗廟他希望說我們能夠突破山坡地保育或是突破國土計畫那這個會比較困擾因為他有這個危險的問題這個就是我們所說公共安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3373.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3402.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那再來就是有些自律性很強他希望說我們這個很多捐獻或者是勸募的話呢會按照我們的捐獻的這個方式他需要報稅或者不要報稅等等這些那我們都聽到這些聲音但是你要把它列說你的標準要劃在哪一條線確實很難確實很難所以我們就採用這個行政命令的方式只要你不觸犯到母法那幾乎我們大概就是低度監管為原則因為這樣子比較符合憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3402.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3417.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
對於宗教自由的這個精神那當然我們特別有提到為什麼這裡面呢這個不管是哪一位委員所提的版本呢對於宗教自由的概念呢沒有那麼的清楚我舉個例子譬如說在台北火車站的前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3418.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3442.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
會有很多人說你要不要信仰什麼部分那如果我們跟他講你宗教自由你到哪裡都可以傳播宗教自由他跑到捷運車廂裡面跟你講說你如果不信的話會怎樣怎樣這個呢就是影響到他人而且影響到公共秩序那這個部分可能是社會法要處理的那這個部分就會影響到我們在同意與否做這個宗教基本法裡面的一個最大的一個成因 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3443.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3467.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
謝謝部長因為在114年就今年的11月27號在東吳大學他的法律宗教研討會也有這個11篇論文還有22位專家學者及很多的宗教團體都有出席他們其實是支持這個宗教基本法所以我還是希望說部長這邊可以請聽民意那盡快找這些社團大家再來討論就您剛提出的問題是不是可以不要再影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3468.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3496.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
層面很廣泛的狀況下還是可以有基本法的這個往前邁進一步那第二個我要來請教部長的就是說最近尤其我們最近都在討論詐騙的問題很嚴重那我昨天有開了一場公聽會其實從今年1月到11月其實詐騙的金額高達800多億的新台幣那尤其宗教的部分也有可能有些不肖的這個業者他們也會有一些宗廟的一些詐騙或是高利貸的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3497.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3511.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
最近我們也看到不管是有宮廟可能淪為地下錢莊或者是要求信徒去借高利貸或者是要求賣一些說加持過的東西來試品來去改運然後請長輩匯出巨款 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3515.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3537.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那我想要請教就是說 因為現在這個打詐是跨部會的協調因為內政部 如果宗教團體他可以由內政部來登記成人民團體如果有違法可以解散那如果他用公司組織的方式變成是經濟部商業司來管轄那如果是一些宗教團體 他們是賣的是心靈治療課程如果牽涉到醫療的 可能是衛福部來管轄 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3538.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3553.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那現在這麼多管轄單位那針對這些宗教的詐騙是不是有可能用聯合稽查的機制來去做管理因為我們現在有看到很多這個民眾被詐騙完以後輕生的問題是不是請部長可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3555.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3570.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
謝謝張委員的關心第一個你所謂的心靈成長到底是屬於宗教就是我剛所說這個說不定只是假宗教之名行詐騙之實那我們114年1月1號也是今年跟宗教詐欺有關的案件已經有移送86件86件 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3573.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3598.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
還有就是說他是屬於非法的宗教活動他其實就是在行詐欺那我想張委員講得非常好就是如果他願意到我們的警察單位來報案的話我們會結合剛剛你所說的衛福部或是教育部一起來做這個稽查的工作讓他不要觸犯到刑法這條線那至於說這個非法的這個宗教的活動屬於哪一類我是不是請市長跟你稍微回應一下好 謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3600.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3613.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝委員其實我們現在常常碰到比較非法的譬如說他是賣尼古塔或者是改姓名改姓改姓的話你就要交多少錢還有說是平安燈允許說10萬塊20萬塊但他子弟可能不認同還有說假借說我要投資你把那些金額把它投資下去結果不了了之全部要去哪裡了這是幾個我們常碰到一個案例好謝謝那最後一個問題我還想要請教部長部長這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3630.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3644.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
最近還是很多民眾跟我反映就是說針對內政部進小紅書的問題我想要請教因為現在聽說現在小紅書上面也在教導人民說如何用翻牆軟體用翻牆系統來去用小紅書 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3647.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3663.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那針對民眾如果用這個VPN或是翻牆系統會造成裡面跳出很多的談業廣告會不會讓民眾或是我們的國人因為他很想要看這些不管是美妝旅遊或是生活的一些資料他用翻牆軟體會不會造成他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3664.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3683.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
會更有機會接觸到這些詐騙廣告的這個問題你們內政部有什麼樣的解決方式使用VPN的方式的話我們會請這個數位經濟的監管機關來處理但是裡面如果牽涉到詐欺的話就是會像很多外界所提到的因為他已經是不屬於我們監管的範圍沒有辦法納入台灣監管的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3686.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3697.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以這樣的詐騙行為要我們的警政單位去追查反而比較大的困擾那我們那個科技偵查 對不起防詐中心的張主任跟您回應一下好不好好 謝謝 請張主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3700.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3725.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
謝謝委員對這個部分有深入的一個了解那基本上不管他是在這個網路廣告平台上平台上面他只要跳出相關的資訊我們也會想辦法會利用科技偵查的方式去追索他有沒有相關的來源的IP只要是來自於在境外的部分我們還是會去做一些相關的程式去做一個去做一個trace如果他是用個跳板的部分只要在國內的部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3725.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3755.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
科技犯罪防控中心它其實基本上都能夠查得出來意思就是我簡單回應一下就是說基本上如果是這個VPN是國內的系統你們還可以追查國外的系統就相對難追查意思是這樣嗎跟詐騙的部分有關的部分其實在我們以現有的相關的程式會去追索但是並不能跟委員保證就是說是不是在國內部分一定能夠追得到因為事實上像包括我們在做數位鑑識的部分的追查其實用一般相關的一些數位鑑識軟體比如說Tri-Edge等等的這個東西基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3755.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3766.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為他手機的他的那個功能還有包括程式會一直更新所以我們會不能夠說完全保證但是我們會盡全力來追查謝謝 以上謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝張志文委員的發言接下來我們請張宏祿委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3786.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3812.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我請部長跟市長請部長還有市長莊委員早部長其實今天大家在討論這個宗教基本法我認為大家都是利益良善但是我覺得以我目前看到這個法案的內容其實我還是真的覺得有一些不足之處不知道部長你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3815.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3838.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
謝謝委員的關心其實我們都知道台灣的宗教其實它的環境是非常多元的但是要做到管理確實不容易所以我們的公務系統的人都是基本上以服務為主你只要不要觸犯其他的法律上面應該有的規範的話我們大概都不會去特別去高度監理 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3840.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3862.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
對啦 我如果就這個內容來看的話部長 會不會有一天台灣會有很多的異難他就因為宗教的問題他就不服一物一他可能就替代一或什麼這個選擇會不會有一天有這種情況發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3863.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3891.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我當然希望不要太多因為給宗教太多自由他會說他不要服兵役等等這些因為有些宗教他的教義裡面是不能拿槍的啦不能什麼的其實有很多有這種宗教啊那如果宗教基本法我們現在過了沒有詳細去規定會不會有一天台灣真的很多人不用當兵這也是我們會擔心的理由之一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3892.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3912.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對啊 這個我覺得很多事情要思考到那再來 如果宗教基本法如果通過了我們如果沒有好好的去規範的話未來這個放生會不會問題更多那就觸犯到動保法或是野生動物保護條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3914.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3941.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我如果是宗教基本法通過我可能有基本法的保障是 所以我們很希望說要非常的那個審慎來研議也就是說不要妨害到我們自己國家的重大的政策所以我們會覺得說宗教的自由把它放在憲法的位階來討論會比較好那不要做那個強度帶強的行政管理對啦 因為我覺得啦一個基本法的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3942.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3968.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
位階是很高的基本法的位階是很高如果說沒有好好的討論如果說就這樣子通過我很擔心我剛舉的這兩個例子這個不只影響到我們對宗教會有很多人去鑽這個漏洞這個是我擔心的對不對 部長那再來其實台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3970.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3987.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
宗教自由 我相信現在應該算是蠻自由的了啦我們的管理也沒有到非常的高度啦 對不對幾乎沒有但還是有一點啦 我們不能說完全沒有不能違法啦 不能違反法律那宗教的自由已經非常的自由了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3990.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4004.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們啊基本法因為太大的題目了所以要好好的討論但現在呢台灣的宗教其實也有一些問題我們可以明確的趕快去解決啊對不對像我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4005.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4029.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
之前有這個以自然人名義登記的這個我老覺得這個我們是不是要來討論有沒有需要再延長我不知道部長你的看法是 謝謝其實也是委員在當召委的時候我們在上上個會期有通過目前我們去跟很多宗教團體來接觸的結果他們希望我們繼續輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4031.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4045.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以很有可能到明年6月的時候呢我們會可能會繼續往下再繼續延長這個時間因為畢竟在輔導的過程當中每個廟宇所出現的狀況是不一樣的那我們要跟地方政府來結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4047.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4063.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
不只不一樣而且樣態也非常不一樣是的市長我請問一下你除了以自然人這個我們可能要延長之外那廟宇的登記的問題還有其他不屬於這些類型的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4064.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4084.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
根委報告 其實很多的樣態在寺廟登記 很多早期都是用自然人民益登記包括農地的部分 我就說排除自然人民益這個還有很多樣態吧 對現在包括說在農地上你要土地怎麼變更為寺廟所有這是很大的一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4085.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4096.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
所以我們現在內政部門部長非常重視所以我們剛好國土計劃法在延長六年那我們會積極來輔導包括地方縣政府來輔導我們重要團體因為這六年在非都市部分或都市計劃趕快做變更包括我們要作為就是在讓他的預算能夠減少他所花的機會減少他的時程可以縮短所以我們會來努力這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4111.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4132.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
除了农地上的还有很多还有很多它有的不一定是农地它有的也可能它的庙人家在那边后来政府给人家化为什么环保用地化为什么我觉得这个都可以一并解决一次通盘的去了解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4133.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4141.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
是包括那你們有沒有什麼具體的想法是我們會通過我們宗教執行委員來聽聽看各個各個地方的意見然後我們包括我們的同仁也有會診的會診相關資料然後我們會積極來討論來研議包括說我們包括國路署的包括地政的問題包括大家研商怎麼去溝通來解決他問題還有一個財稅問題在宗教團體他非常關心他的稅然後我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4163.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4191.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們先不用講到財稅我現在是跟你講這個用地的問題對不對我覺得其實問題也沒這麼複雜你就是民國幾年或什麼有一個標準人家之前寺廟就在了對不對還是這種的我們要不要去解決你總不能說從明天之後然後他明知道這裡不可以的那他要去那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4193.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4211.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這個我們就有點說不過去但人家在之前就有了這個我們可以想辦法解決吧我覺得應該要稍微先切割吧你覺得呢各位報告我們現在有一個就是崇化農地的特農區的部分我們之前也有幫他解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4212.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4238.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
但是事實上他申請率還是不高但是我們會繼續來協助這個特農區的在我們這個土地法實施之前的我知道啦你都沒有take到我的重點你一直在跟我講農地我都已經跟你講到不只農地了那你還一直在講農地你都沒有回答我的問題啊我請我們等下同仁來補充啦那個委員所講的部分我了解就是說他本來已經在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4238.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4256.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那後來不管是都市或非都才把它劃成其他宗教不能夠使用的用地那這個有時間先後所以每個個案我們會去會刊會刊出來確實像委員所提的這個狀況的話我們就想辦法解決那我們的同仁他們有處理過我先讓同仁跟你簡單的說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4258.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4282.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
跟委員報告 這裡是國土署那現在如果是在非都市土地上面如果是在各縣市第一次實施編定管制之前就已經存在的寺廟是可以由寺廟檢據這個管制前的合法的證明文件向各縣市政府去申請更正編定為建築用地那現在是有這樣子的機制可以來做處理我知道 但有一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4283.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4294.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們都忽略了地方政府也忽略了很多寺廟的負責人其實都蠻資深的年紀都蠻大的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4295.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4318.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我跟你講 你政府要他去申請 他根本不知道啊他也不懂啊 問題是出在這裡啊那我們就是在辦公室裡面這樣看都忘了這些人 他其實不懂這些他每天在聽收音機的而已 他也沒有看報紙然後政府也 因為他也沒有登記也沒有寄通知單給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4319.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4347.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
現在有很多的問題是這一種的那我覺得身為主管機關如果像這種我們應該要想辦法去解決才對啊委員我非常了解你現在說的部分我非常了解一百年兩百年的老廟的部分或者是說它的住址已經不在了我跟你說我們可以這樣子第一個會刊很重要但在會刊的過程當中我們的行政單位可以去取得當時的航照或空照圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4348.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4372.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
來確定 讓做這樣的鑑定鑑定出來確實是這個樣子的話我們就會簽辦這個公文 而不是說你一定要來申請我們沒有 沒那麼細心啦我們還是非常靈活會處理這個部分 所以我說我們的中理師的相關單位是以服務為主 而不是以管理為主因為這個後面人家還要我剛說的有一個重點就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4373.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4397.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
之前連來申請登記什麼他都不知道要這一種的非常多尤其是在那個非六都以外的更多我覺得這一種的我們應該要先想辦法幫他解決甚至我都覺得說他如果是這樣其實只要這個廟他有給我們竊決 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4399.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4423.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
如果你這塊地你永遠是用寺廟使用的我們都可以幫他解決那如果以後你要賣掉你要什麼的你這塊地啊我們就會想辦法去限制他我覺得可以有一套的做法好那個謝謝委員的指教委員非常了解這個狀況我們會跟地方政府來找到一個大家都可以一起來合作的方案好嗎好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4427.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4431.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
謝謝張宏陸委員的發言 接下來我們請李博議員發言謝謝 有請劉部長請劉部長李委員早 謝謝部長我來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4454.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4484.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
曾经是你的选区现在是我的选区的左营万年记左营万年记在你担任副市长的时候开始大力的去整合我想要听一下副市长听一下刘部长当初整合的现况他是在连池谈判的所有的庙宇然后由高雄市政府的民政局邀集这些庙宇 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4485.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4508.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
一起來參與那我們把它做成一個萬年祭讓整個左營的廟宇文化特色結合觀光讓所有高雄市甚至外縣市的人來辦到今年已經十幾年了那今年度也是由原地廟來主辦這一個萬年祭就是把所有的這些廟宇有一個特色 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4509.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4539.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟政府的政策的走向慢慢走向這個萬年紀你不會看到大量的煙火跟鞭炮跟所有的廟宇的這個他們可能在遶境啊或者是他們可能要辦活動的時候傳統的印象會不太一樣這個就是高雄市政府當初劉部長你跟所有廟宇的這個共同用心推動今天的這個成果啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4539.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4566.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那所以當然跟今天的這個宗教基本法我覺得是息息相關因為當我們這些廟宇他分開辦活動的時候大家在比什麼比熱鬧啊怎麼樣熱鬧放鞭炮放煙火啊怎麼樣來表達我對這個廟宇的這個支持我就是設立炮台我來放鞭炮那部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4569.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4592.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
萬年紀已經這麼進步了那這個宗教的這個基本法如果下去的話那所有的這些我們其實地方政府跟這些廟宇都保持很良好的互動跟溝通啦如果要遶境的時候總是要跟警察局第一個先申請這些路線嘛那第二個警察局會勸導什麼會勸導說你們的煙火你們的鞭炮要怎麼放 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4593.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4623.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個大家要取得一個共識那比如說共識如果晚上9點以後還是有這些那麼熱鬧的活動的話那警察局當然必須要跟環保局必須要都全程出面監控如果萬一真的影響到人的時候必須要做一些協調必須要做一些溝通法絕對不是我們現在主要的目的是讓這個宗教活動可以跟社會可以共存可以讓社會也可以接受這個宗教基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4623.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4627.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
如果通過以後 部長會不會抵觸到這些相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4628.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4653.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
如果現在的條文太籠統而且對於自由的定義是什麼有點像是說以宗教為名的話他所產生的各種各式各樣的這種禮俗活動等等這些如果侵犯到其他的包括教育勞動或者是環保等等的時候就變得不受控制那這個不是一個宗教基本法想要推動的基本的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4653.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4681.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那那個李委員非常謝謝你就是說在左營的這個萬年祭的這個部分我們有考慮到包括文化的因為萬年不是只有左營還有鳳山所以有跨區域的還有是跟社會局譬如說我們要舉辦這些活動的時候大家會收營你會請這些弱勢團體過來收營類似這樣子的方式那就表示說把我們宗教這種教化世人而且是照顧弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4682.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4703.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這樣子的一個基本的核心理念把它放到裡面去所以包括原地廟等各宮廟的負責人都覺得願意投入而且我知道他們花的這個金錢啊還比這個政府補貼的更多那這樣子的熱鬧的活動的話不是只有我們這個社區裡面應該出現的也變成是高雄市結合觀光 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4704.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4731.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
非常有用的一個活動那我覺得這樣子相當好如果可以繼續推動會像剛剛有些委員提到譬如說像苗栗的這個超跑的模組的這個活動它就越來越多的這個國內外的觀光客會進去那這樣對廟來講也越來越輕啦所以我覺得如果有這樣一個跨文化領域跨不同的領域然後他是遵守台灣的規範的話在台灣一定會受到相當多的歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4732.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4761.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
對但是這個活動沒有牽涉到目前我們討論到的這些可能有這些宗教基本法的草案沒有都完全沒有那還是可以規劃的非常好有特色但是這個草案他主要要規劃他主要要可能會影響到的範圍有在根據部長就教大概宗教團體法或者是宗教法人法或者是宗教這個基本法就是來定義什麼叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4762.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4782.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
宗教自由什麼叫宗教光是宗教的定義我覺得可能就會必須要花很多的時間跟精神來討論因為外界也有很多目前我們把宗教跟勸募跟詐騙跟組織沒有辦法去分辨的這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4783.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4811.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那會不會就跑進這個宗教基本法來受它的規範那會不會有相關的剛剛其他委員有質詢到的這些土地的問題因為這樣子有大量的國土可能因為這個宗教基本法而影響到可能未來的國土計劃法影響到水保法 影響到建築法那會不會影響到國家公園法那會不會我剛剛我講的這個噪音管制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4811.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4832.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
泡足煙火管制條例甚至消防法等等這些問題都會包含在這個宗教基本法裡面的宗教自由以及傳道自由以及傳播自由裡面我想這個是我們必須要很認真的去看每一個法條可能會造成的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4833.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4861.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那所以現在內政部包含各縣市政府的民政單位對於宗教的土地財產財務等等尤其是財產財務等等是採低度管理嗎但是如果藉由這個法以後他會造成什麼樣的結果可能想像的結果部長第一個所有的內政部的宗教諮詢委員還是希望來審慎研議這個比例大概是怎樣九成以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4862.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4890.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
九成以上的中華民國宗教諮詢委員希望要宗教基本法沒有共識之前不要貿然推動是應該是理由是這樣的那如果說有些委員說那你們內政部要去制定一個宗教基本法可是我們宗教基本法訂定下去的時候就會有我們剛剛所說的25種台灣的法律要把它納到裡面去那你納到裡面去的話呢就變成非常高度監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4892.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4906.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那既然是非常高度監管又並不符合我們憲法裡面保障這個宗教信仰的自由所以我們說在這個取捨之間是不是慢慢推進會比較好那有些戰刑條例的部分大家宗廟團體或宗教團體所碰到的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4907.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4935.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
只要他是正向的在推廣宗教的那我們盡量來服務他像剛剛我有提到他是老廟可是碰到新的建築法規那中間一定會有一些緩衝的方式可以來處理那我們就盡量來服務就這樣謝謝所以我們內政部對宗教對這個看法還是採取高度自由但是要符合台灣信仰宗教高度自由宗教高度的自由但是還是要符合台灣目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4935.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4944.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
的相關的這些法令包含土地是那包含兵役或者是包含環境等等的這些我們都還是要繼續兼顧是謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝李博弈委員的發言接下來請王美惠召回發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4959.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4977.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
主席,我們這裡補充補充有申告嗎?在這裡,本市長先跟你說一件我們的專門安全小舉本在這裡面的過程,本市也看到你去跟家人的選擇在哪裡,但是本市長是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4983.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5007.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
在我們看來 到目前我們要到下禮拜十二月十五到全台灣都會去補貼這份小局面是不是這樣不是 那是只有基隆而已北部地區差不多 我不知道沒有啦 北部的都市的都差不多有補貼啦對對對 但是部長你可不可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5013.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5013.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我來催促國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5044.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5066.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們趕快在這個十二月十五心思全台灣都會到位來 補充六個章節這是第三梯次啦第三梯次是包括嘉義市在內有六個端子啦第四梯次還有三個啦但是如果是阿公阿嬤現在看不到我建議說他的孫子在那個網站上面可以去掃 從網站上面掃下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5071.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5085.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
掃描下來下載也可以 因為就是阿公要跟阿公阿嬤聯絡一下感情 我看有的會去拿他的阿孫大伯伯的拿回去 我就在那裡早早站在外面站的時候看到是在那裡說什麼 我就跟他們在那裡說我覺得這樣很好 雖然補充說起來 你如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5098.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5105.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
QR Code 掃出來的時候合併了但是那個親子的感情是不一樣的所以普通 我覺得說你會覺得那麼久嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5114.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5123.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我也覺得太久了國防部就硬這麼慢了 我跟你說國防部硬多了 我們本多了對啦 我覺得要快一點因為剛好現在可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5129.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5133.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
各縣市有的分農民力做會分他會覺得說一時要分那一時要分那跟我們可以做會分好過的 能夠好好保證在廟會選到的選擇也很好有機會也可以交給自己我來安排時間保證今天我們要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5157.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5162.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
廟會的基本法裡面本身要探討的就是我們年古未清在這個秩序當中要維護社會的秩序好不好我覺得這是最基本的尤其廟會在你們一棟一棟叫這些廟會要去登記也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5184.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5194.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
你覺得到目前為止有多少票的定期你們內政部的統計正式定期一百三十年十九年 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5201.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5208.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
跟補聽機的有26個啦在這個規定當中我要請問我們的管理廟室的是怎樣到目前為止會聽到這樣是有什麼問題有什麼麻煩來回答一下好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5227.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5230.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
大家委員好 大家委員報告啦所以我們現在正式登記有七千一百六十三間 撥辦有五千一百九十八間 這是目前的資料啦因為撥辦大部分都是遇到土地的問題 土地沒辦法變成二地定管所以當初有撥辦的制度 花一段時間來做土地的變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5248.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5249.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們說實在的現在你也知道說實在的廟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5275.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5288.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
比超商小便宜還要多是有什麼態度的本事來講是說經濟的跟部門的接觸啦你如果去努力去了解他的狀況是怎麼沒辦法辦啦是說實在你去看如果大間的有人做的時候去辦做好辦的有的年貢有的錢四五十天五六十天的到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5305.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5320.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那沒辦法辦像你剛才說的雙胞胎不能辦但是國家時代水土保護的地方是可以用廟的可以用教育的對不對 是不是這樣那我說的是不是廟的比我們超商還要多那是怎樣定義到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5331.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5339.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
跟你說是說 他的地有問題啦跟他的財產有問題啦 跟你說要怎麼去協和啦有辦法協和 我們就跟他講基本法你沒辦法協和 問題有很多啦雖然我是教育 但我尊重我們的廟因為廟有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5358.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5370.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
人的信用我們就是要去處理好有的廟是做錢書 辦展弱勢團體的有的是什麼你知不知道騙食騙錢的市長你知不知道這個所有本事跟你說的就是好好的我們怎麼去付賭不好好的水田電機都沒有運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5386.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5388.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那有問題耶 市長是這一筆來 你要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5393.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5398.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
大家可以報告 其實我也很關心 補充也很關心這個議題其實我們現在有計謀說 我們包括說這個月17號邀請到地方政府的 他們的客廳跟主辦的 我有一個公事人做出這個議題 就是說要針對戰刑條例 就是說土地的變更 要讓它復讀不要讓他們覺得說 在國土安全範圍之內 要花這麼多錢 花這麼多時間 它就乾脆不可以辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5420.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5436.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們來針對這個意義來克服 來協助他們市長 有的沒辦法 我們怎麼去來用在不違法當中我們要中央的角色要去多協助啦好第五電機的啦 中間30%都沒運作啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5442.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5450.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
他沒運作,你讓他去了解這庭在那裡沒運作六大、四大,他們在幹什麼啦你也要關心一下了解你們是感到吃捏對嗎,不是放在那裡讓他這樣也不好有時候阿公阿姨在那裡,人家不便宜什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5463.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5465.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以說廟的基本法裡面有很多問題現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5481.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5499.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們的法是可以牽涉到10點以後 不能放任何人如果要放任何人 覺得很老人 我們也很開心但是10點過 是我們要休息的時間 你如果這個法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5501.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5507.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
沒法不聽,一般跟聽講,你也不知道他再來未來,他如果開一間廟室,要做兵的人,去登記他的信託你後來要他做兵,也生問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5521.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5538.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以在這個規定 我覺得部長也好 市長也好應該大家多溝通 我剛才說的問題是區區一兩項而已來賓是很多問題在來賓 所以我這時候的時間也夠了要不然我問市長 我們這個法規修改 是可以也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5547.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5557.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
如果修法 修完後 這樣就不理會我們的修法 也會封仇說修到這個法 沒辦法保證廟 還有廟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5563.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5585.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
跟當然認真做的負責人的意思相關的如果萬一歐北省的負責人這樣就不好了所以市長我們在這裡不妨去每一個縣市跟縣市政府跟廟會的負責人大家探討出來問題才是重要的是 好 謝謝 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5593.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5596.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好謝謝完美會召委的質詢接下來我們請黃婕委員發言好謝謝主席我們請劉部長請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5613.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5627.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
好部長好在處理這個宗教基本法之前我也想先請教一下這個老宅延壽相關的政策因為這個老宅延壽政策出來其實我們地方上反應都還蠻正面的那當然昨天也有聽到有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5629.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5656.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
網友也都在討論說這個老宅延售他們認為效果有限覺得在都更跟危老之後如果還要做老宅延售是不是他們覺得這個政策可能效果不彰是不是拜託部長在這邊跟大家說明一下老宅延售的用意以及他其實裡面最高可以補助到960萬其實是一個非常高額的補助謝謝委員的關心委員非常關心我們的住宅政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5657.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5674.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
其實老宅延壽跟督庚跟危老三個都會並行但是在處理督庚跟危老的時候因為它在建築申請的程序比較慢或者是要統合比較多不同的意見但是老宅延壽的話只要它合乎耐震的標準的話包括它瓷磚脫落 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5676.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5692.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
或者是家裡頭有老人家需要更換管線才會影響到消防安全呢我們都把它列入可以來申請那如果說為了照顧老人家那你需要補這個電梯外掛式的或是內附式的話呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5693.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5708.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們最高確實是可以補助到960萬那我們在每一場說明會的時候來的人真的非常的多各式各樣的問題也不少但是因為這是特別法通過的所以我們希望在三年內可以用50億的經費來輔導全台灣的人來處理這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5712.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5739.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那因為在處理的過程當中我們也委託各縣市地方政府的建築師他們到現場去講的時候我們也請到說請現場那個能夠溝通的母語去講所以村里長也好或者是對這個有興趣來的都非常的踴躍那所以我們就按照原來的方式繼續推動那我們推動老宅延壽的其他的目的還有都更跟危老也會一併來進行其實都沒有任何焊隔的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5740.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5756.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好謝謝部長說明因為這兩天其實消息出來之後南部也有很多鄉親都在問我們說我們會排對沒錯所以我有跟內政部爭取說我們南部也有需求希望接下來這個說明會可以多到南部舉辦讓更多的人知道這樣子一個好的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5757.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5784.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
好謝謝那再來這個宗教基本法其實我覺得宗教自由是我們憲法保障所有我們國民的權利那所以其實宗教自由分成兩個部分一種是精神上思想上所以精神上的這種思想自由是絕對沒有問題的尊重大家任何人性養任何自由的權利這個就是憲法保障我們一個民主國家的權利可是如果要涉及到宗教的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5785.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5810.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那這個其實就要涉看所有的法律之間有沒有漢格了那所以其實剛剛很多委員也都舉了一些例子那我在這邊其實也隨便想到就想到幾個例如說有一些宗教團體他們會成立學校成立醫院那或許用他們的教義在這樣子的醫療場所以及在他們的學校裡面去傳達符合他們教義的理念但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5811.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5826.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
例如說在性平法裡面就是有規定到說要尊重不同的性別尊重不同的性傾向可是如果他的教育裡面是沒有辦法接受多元性別的那在他們的學校裡面會不會有焊隔之處啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5827.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5846.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我舉個例子好了他在學校裡面說我們要教反同教育我在學校裡面絕對不可以提到同志兩個字那請問這樣子所謂符合宗教自由的教育嗎我想宗教自由大概也不要侵犯到別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5847.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5861.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那屬於精神跟文化層面的話其實沒有任何法律可以規範的到但是屬於妨礙到別人自由或者是這意見表達自由的話可能就要受到場所的限制那因為教育部的同仁有過來我們請教不同人說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5864.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5888.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
請問如果這個宗教基本法通過之後是不是代表這個只要是宗教團體成立的學校他在裡面是可以教導不符合性平教育法裡面相關規定的內容報告委員就是我們教育基本法裡面有規定就是在學校是教育中立的原則那公立學校他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5890.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5907.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
就是不得在學校裡面從事宗教這些活動因為它要保持我們國家教育任務的中立性跟公共性但是私立學校它可以辦理符合它學校屬性的宗教活動但是它不能夠強迫師生參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5910.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5934.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
對啊所以我說可以他在學校裡面教這些不符合性平教育法裡面的內容是可以的嗎不論公私立他是不能夠強迫師生就是不能違法嗎對啊所以性平教育法寫得很清楚啊你不能違法不管你是公立不管你是私立就是要符合我們基本教育的原則不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5934.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5950.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以我的意思是說這個宗教基本法如果下去他的教義跟我們的性平教育法裡面有漢格的時候怎麼辦其實我們本部在我們本部的說明裡面有說到就是說今天的宗教基本法有三個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5950.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5969.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那其中就是那個委員許智傑的版本裡面有提到就是要宗教自由要在適當場所那我們部裡面是支持要在適當場所的因為這樣子才不會跟教育基本法的教育中立有焊隔好 謝謝教育部的說明再來我們請農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5971.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5995.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我在這邊也舉另外一個例子我們民間有一種宗教的法器叫做鯊魚劍那它是用一種已經瀕臨絕種的保育類叫做巨窯的一種生物它的身體的一部分做成的那一個禮拜之前其實海巡署才查獲到一批這樣的鯊魚劍已經移送檢調來辦理了那我要問如果這個宗教基本法通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5996.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6016.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那是不是符合他們宗教行為使用鯊魚劍這種瀕臨絕種的生物使用的宗教的法器他們是可以使用的嗎報告委員有關於鯊魚劍這部分它是屬於海域的野生動物那當然是由海委會來主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6016.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6033.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
但是對於野生動物牠的獵捕的部分我們還是建議在維護生態永續的一個前提下應該再依照野生動物保育法的一個規範來去處理對啊 所以很明顯如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6033.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6053.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
民間的這些宗教跟野保法之間有衝突的時候會變成說兩部法律到底要遵守哪一部這個一定要好好討論所以我剛剛舉的例子不管是性平法不管是野保法還有很多包括說環保相關的法規包括你鞭炮放太多包括你要不要放生一些外來種 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6054.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6064.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這都很可能會侵害到我們的生態保育啊公共衛生啊甚至是一些疾病的傳播都是有可能的更不用說如果你要在農地建廟或者是說這個宗教裡面不符合要服兵役這樣的規定該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6071.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6086.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以以上其實不還有什麼消防公安太多太多了一旦這個宗教基本法跟其他的法律之間有焊隔的時候一定要審慎的處理所以我在這邊也希望我們主管機關內政部一定要多跟這個再拜託劉部長對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6089.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6108.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個宗教基本法裡面漢格的法律太多太多了對我們現在統計出來25種25種法律所以而且很跨到那麼多部沒錯所以這個一定要拜託大家審慎思考也希望我們主管機關可以再跟各個部會各個委員多溝通讓大家知道這個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6109.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6122.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
撐射行為自由這個自由是有界限是有責任是有法律的基本的底線的所以這個不可以隨便貿然實施好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝黃街委員的質詢接下來我們請徐欣穎委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6145.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6168.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長有請部長徐委員好部長我們有看到內政部的報告一開始就講說我們這個宗教基本法是應該以憲法保障為核心所以是不是因為這樣所以沒有行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6170.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6196.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
報告委員其實在委員討論的過程當中大家都知道這個提出宗教基本法的概念在立法院已經橫跨至少五屆以上那表示說大家都沒有共識這個跟那個黨派沒有什麼太大關係那既然沒有共識的話現在貿然推動反而會有更多不同的問題會產生所以當委員說要審查這部分我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6200.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6224.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
也沒有辦法去馬上處理因為這是上個禮拜才出來說要處理的部分 對對對我也了解因為我知道您第五屆第九屆第十屆我在第八屆的時候很多人想推但因為沒共識就都等於好像擱置對對對那所以行政院這個會期也沒有預期會審所以也沒有行政院版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6226.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6238.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但是我其實本席的立場是跟你們是一致的我們這個憲法保障為核心但是憲法保障為核心你們這邊特別提了這個憲法23條講說以上各條列舉之自由權利除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6249.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6273.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
妨礙他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序等等所以不得以法律限制之那你們這樣講的同時本席其實也想講其實選舉罷免創制複決也是憲法保障的所列的權利可是我們在選舉罷免我們有選罷法創制複決我們有公投法 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6274.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6288.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那再來人民有集會結社的自由所以我們有集會遊行法 人民團體法所以我們希望行政單位不要有行政怠惰的這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6290.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6316.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
既然民間或是民眾甚至民意代表這個立法委員代表著民意他要來進行這方面的一個基本法宗教基本法的擬定我還是很希望可以看到有行政院的版本所以如果召委有要進行逐條的時候我們希望行政院也能夠有行政院版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6317.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6333.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那再来我想接下来最重要就是说既然我们要来讨论法条那所以首先本席先来确立我们也认为宪法的高度法治的明确性这个很重要所以本席请教部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6336.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6348.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
在中華民國憲法第13條的架構之下內在的信仰自由與外在的宗教行為請問哪一個是絕對保障那哪一個是可以法律限制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6350.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6378.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我想内在的部分比较像是精神跟思想层次那它的保障是写在宪法里面所以它其实抽象性很强那也无法用其他的法律来做管理跟管治我的问题是我刚刚讲的内在的信仰自由跟外在的宗教行为哪一个是可以绝对保障的那就是内在对嘛那所以我们外在的宗教行为我们是应该用法律来限制之的所以我们有了这个共识 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6381.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6405.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
一定我相信部長也認同我們宗教的自由絕對不能置外於憲法還有法律但是現在我們就討論到這個基本法裡面第一條有關教俗分離是不是應該要寫進去教俗分離嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6406.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6435.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
教徒分离的目的就是宗教自由不可置外于宪法跟法律部长你理解吗因为我们没有要进入主条所以我不晓得整一个不是我们没有我们现在就今天就排宗教基本法那所以我就在请教您的立场跟意见嘛所以教徒分离他应该要确立才对吧你们认同呢你们认同吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6437.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6442.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
因為我不曉得那個委員所說的教塾分離的真正的定義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6443.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6469.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你现在讲的是就是当然教徒分离你也看不懂其实我看到以后我也是我也是去了解了很久教徒分离我想大概大家的认定应该就是宗教自由不可置外于宪法法律所以要教徒分离你如果教徒没有写进去那你其实就是变成好像你宗教你有了基本法以后你就变成 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6472.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6492.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
不受法律控制這樣反而不行所以這個部長你這個要加把勁再來自主管理自主管理你不敢寫進去那這個自主管理的部分就是說宗教我們要保障他的自由但是你又不給他自主管理那難道是要由執政黨管理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6494.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6515.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以这两点教徒分离跟自主管理一个是宗教不可以置外于所有的宪法法律第二个是你要保障宗教的自由你还是要给他有一个自主的空间本席我看部长还在研究没关系也就是说我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6517.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6539.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
政府的手 給他自主管理就是政府的手不要深進去管神明的事除非神明的事情變成了凡人的危險他危害了公共秩序如果他危害了公共利益甚至善良風俗政府就要管理但是如果沒有這些前提之下給他們自主給他們有自主管理的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6541.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6564.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好那再来就是在我们今天讨论的三个版本就是召委有提出来我们的三个版本里面有一个版本一直写在法条里面满满的第二条里面都是适当的场所刚刚这个前一位委员也在质询适当的场所适当的管理者适当的慈善机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6566.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6591.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們很驚訝法律明確性原則可以用適當兩個字放進法條裡嗎那這個適當誰來認定難道是誰執政誰認定嗎所以這一塊本席有提修正動議我們希望適當這兩個字要刪掉我們要用不妨礙公共秩序與善良風俗來取代適當這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6594.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6607.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
无论我们是不是要进入逐条还是怎么样我们希望行政单位也要有立场一定要有立场还有再来就是民众有一个忧虑部长这个法 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6609.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6635.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個有部分的民意代表開始推動但是我們還是要注意社會大眾的疑慮也就是說宗教它不可以是法外之地不可以是法外之地所以有些民眾的疑慮就會擔心宗教基本法會不會變成宗教霸王條款或者絕對不能變成邪教保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6636.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6662.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
所以我们希望信仰的核心跟世俗的责任要切开所以部长我觉得这个宗教基本法您可能好像都还没有特别关心没有特别深入委员这样讲我觉得我只能跟你讲说我们请教过很多宗教团体不同教派的宗教团体是大家没有共识 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6662.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6677.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那既然沒有共識我們大概站在我們的低度管理的立場我們就不輕易去說這個贊成這個不贊成更何況委員您所提的部分是委員或者是立法院所提的版本所以我很難回應說這個好與不好不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6678.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6706.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
但是你要站在行政单位你要有行政单位的立场我们刚有提过我们认为现在贸然推动宗教基本法可能不是那么的成熟你一直在讲基本法可是我已经进入细项针对某些立场你现在所讲的部分是进入法律不是进入基本法是每一种法律案像您刚刚所提到的就是所谓的教俗分离所以我在讲的是宗教基本法的这样的一个概念那行政单位的立场你要有立场 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6707.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6724.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
不是嗎我們的立場就是根據我們現在的憲法上面我們用低度的這個管理但是呢盡量來服務但是不要去觸犯到其他的法律為主對啊但是如果你把它寫進去的話你會覺得說是高度管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6724.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6747.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
而不是自治治理那這個就是最難的地方就是說這條線要劃在哪裡所以我們現在有很多出現需要解決的部分的話就盡量在法律授權範圍內的暫行條例或者是一般的管理辦法或是輔導的方式來處理我覺得這樣子才能夠容納更多對於宗教有不同想法的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6747.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6764.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
对 所以您这样从您的回答就表示说有部分的人想要推宗教基本法你们是连宗教基本法整部法你不管这个讨论不讨论你对整个法你是否决的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6765.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6784.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
委員我還是沒有辦法接受你這樣的說法我們不是否決其實我也沒贊成啊我一直跟你表達我的立場你的幕僚都聽得很清楚沒有不是這樣的委員我們不是這麼斬釘截鐵我們已經講過我們問過所有在宗教界他們是長久以來一輩子都在宗教界服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6785.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6807.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們要尋求最大的公約數現在這個最大的公約數並沒有在宗教基本法這裡面產生的很多人有不同的意見我們都尊重但是既然沒有產生我相信立法院也是一個整體的一個決策的範圍內你不是絕大多數人都有希望通過的一個最大公約數的話這樣通過這樣不是置私欲焚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6807.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6821.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以我們沒在說通過不通過我們在講說討論我們也很多法條是開始討論他並可能他就直接保留或者是直接討論一半他並沒有說一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6823.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6851.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
通過或者甚至二讀三讀沒有耶而在討論的時候大家把整個社會的意見包含當然行政單位你們有徵詢所以我們才要討論所以我相信很多人聽到剛剛本席所講的我就是針對幾個因為談到宗教基本法大家會有的疑慮包括我剛剛講不希望宗教基本法變成邪教保障法更不希望宗教基本法變成宗教霸王條款啊是不是所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6852.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6868.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
这些立场我们都要把持住所以本席在讲的是这一块你这样了解吧所以那当然还有一些是因为我们看到今天放进来的法条有一些它属于比较模棱两可宗教 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6869.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6886.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
没有宗教基本法但是如果有宗教基本法也不能变成这个宗教基本法最后这个条文内容都是你政府都用什么适当适当那不就都听你政府来判定这个适当我在跟你谈的是这一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6887.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6916.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
然後再來我們好像是第幾條第四條也是什麼損害他人權利之餘這個之餘當然有一些我們會認為是不是民進黨委員的版本是代表你們比較支持的如果沒有你剛剛已經講了這個宗教基本法你從頭到尾你就是不推也不贊成就對了那我們連討論的空間都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6919.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6942.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
部長你聽懂我的意思嗎要回答是嗎我已經多次表達站在行政機關的立場我們就是以各個宗教團體裡面的代表意見為主在還沒有尋求有共識之前的最大公約數之前現在貿然推動會造成更多其他的問題所以你的意思就是說連討論都不能討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6944.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6966.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
現在已經在立法院討論了所以我在跟你講討論的點你完全沒回應你完全無法回應那沒關係這個我本席就是表達我們站在每一個人大概我們都面對的群眾大家的疑慮我們既然討論到這個議題我們還是要把這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6968.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6996.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
如果往前推不管他通不通過往前推我們還是應該要就一些問題來釐清但是部長你的態度我只能說行政怠惰然後呢這個完全對我們立法院在討論這個事你不僅行政怠惰還有你也不深入謝謝報告委員這個我無法接受我們其實跟各個部會還有很多委員尤其是宗教委員討論過非常多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6997.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7007.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
謝謝徐欣盈委員的質詢接下來請麥玉珍委員發言待會在麥玉珍委員發言結束後我們休息5分鐘謝謝主席有請內政部總理師還有勞動部請市長還有勞動部部長休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7029.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7053.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我要請教一下我們台灣的穆斯林人口已經超過30萬人其中新住民還有一共佔26萬人是台灣社會中規模相當可觀的一個族群我們穆斯林在台灣的生活面向包括就是飲食 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7054.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7082.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
祈禱清潔還有語言的社群知識對於其他族群有所差異我要請教一下我們林師長在內政部的宗教政策的定位中我們穆斯林這個族群的生活與宗教需求內政部是否認為說需要被重視還有在以保障你們的立場是為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7084.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7088.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
謝謝委員的關心因為我們在兩個禮拜前我們也特別拜訪了我們穆斯林協會的一個理事長與相關人員我們也跟他談到這個宗教對話包括他現在已經那個穆斯林他們特別有有機的那些食品他們在推我們有達成一個共識我們在宗教的輔導立場我們會積極來協助他們不管有多少人包括我們的宗教旅遊他們的宗教務也非常有特色 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7113.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7137.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
怎麼去結合他們一起來把他推出去這是我目前的一個一個一個來協助他們一個方式我們知道但是我們是希望就是說我們內政部跟勞動部有沒有跨部會來去說協調這個機制啊確保就是在各類就是說公家場域或者私人的雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7137.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7164.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
提供這樣子的空間真正能落實友善就是穆斯林的需求還有你們手中有沒有說全國的調查或者是就是需求的盤點在現在為止有沒有這個這個系統的統計的數據我們想要知道的各位報告那我們勞動部代表在這裡我們請他再來說明所以你們這邊沒有勞動費這邊有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7169.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7196.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
跟委員報告那基本上那個移工在台就是他的相關的一個生活照顧的部分是由僱主他必須要依照生活照顧計畫書來來提供一些協助這樣子那我們生活照顧計畫書裡面有包括必須要尊重這個就是移工他們本身的一個宗教信仰包括飲食飲食跟生活習慣的部分那這個部分呢我們都是落實在我們的僱主的一個生活照顧計畫書裡面這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7198.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7215.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那跨部會的部分如果說其他部會有需要我們相關的一個宣導或協助的部分我們會配合辦理我們知道每一個部會都有我們要的現在我要的就是說你們有沒有全國調查他們的需求或者盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7216.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7230.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
有多少人有多少點就是我們國營事業還有公家的部門有沒有友善對穆斯林的飲食標準或者他們的做禮拜的地方能不能提出數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7232.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7254.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
不是說只是照顧 這個照顧都知道 人家知道你有照顧有照顧要問你 沒照顧問你 問什麼在你有照顧 才要知道說多少數據 多少的人 多少的需求我們要的是是這樣子的一個照顧 要有量或者是有需求這樣子的意思啦有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7257.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7282.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
跟委員報告因為涉及到很多部位包括漁場的移工的問題包括照護譬如說居家照護的問題包括很多工廠的問題所以我們目前我們是沒有這個數據對我覺得是因為沒有照顧到也沒有保障到也沒有真正的重視所以我們是要你們重視所以目前就是因為我們知道說人口有30萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7284.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7303.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以全國就是我們是現在就是清真寺我們有11間但是都在北部大量的穆斯林集機刷工業區 漁港 像你說的以及就是各個安置中心 收容所 還有就是培訓機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7304.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7332.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
都是没有固定的一个祈祷宫空间所以我们就看到很多移工就是在阶梯在就是说临时空地做礼拜或者竞争室的不足的缺口所以最后造成就是自己自己就是募集补上或者是要很多地方已经都发生很多人就是有人就是提供空间这个空间是 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7334.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7359.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
是公有的因為有人跟我們反映中部就有公有的所以他們就是被騙了把這個公有的地他們就蓋個鐵皮屋在裡面做禮拜但是後來就是被人家檢舉說是公有地你不能蓋所以他又租金又繳了繳的是這個人租給他的這個地蓋了花了全部的新住民移工自己募集的錢去蓋好 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7360.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7378.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
到最後全部拆 花了100多萬這個都有啦所以我們希望說你們要要重視要有這樣子就是少數的種價我們希望說你們要有沒有這樣子的缺口啊盤點啊 需求啊這個就是我們今天要質詢的目的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7379.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7404.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
謝謝委員 跟委員報告 其實我們都是歸各目的事業主管 他們會做一個統計那我們內政部的部分 我們會針對我們中國佛教協會 回教協會那些相關人員 我們來跟他來協助他們 如果需要他們需要我們內政部協助的地方 我們會積極來協助所以他們有需要積極的協助 但是呢 我覺得我們政府現在也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7405.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7431.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
不同的點不只是說這是我們希望說在目前的空間不足我們也知道說有各點但是我們是宗教師還是現在好像說只是他們需求你們來協助但是我們政府很注重這一塊重要就是在我們國內很多的公共產業中是否有規劃就一致性的祈禱式 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7432.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7448.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為他們都是在6日他們可能放假所以在工業區啊交通樞紐的地方啊或者是我們國營事業還有住宿還有就是一個公有的建物中是不是有提供這樣的空間啊不要說他們有需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7453.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7463.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
求助無門嘛 所以才找我們來幫忙質詢幫忙去問說不是有有這個意願來去討論或者是協助這樣子的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7465.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7489.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
跟委員報告因為宗教我們台灣有佛道教有各個宗教基於宗教平等其實我們都會來尊重他們因為太多宗教了這一點要跟委員特別報告所以我們會尊重他們我們現在是百分之百是我們是尊重所有的宗教但是就是我們為什麼要提出是穆斯林他是因為少數 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7492.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7510.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所有的宗教我們像我們佛教我本身就是佛教我們台灣全台有很多新住民就是信佛教所以我們就有現有的廟啊佛堂啊我們就去參拜但是因為我們台灣沒有現有的公共的宗教場合 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7512.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7534.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以我們才要提出來去問這個問題如果是所有的宗教都有現有的我們火車站還有高鐵站還有就是我們機場為什麼要設一個小小的空間讓他們去做禮拜呢就是表示我們政府很重視宗教的禮儀還有宗教的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7535.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7559.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
的少數才會設這個特別給他們用嘛但是因為這個空間比較小他們要禮拜六禮拜天才放假他們來的話就會擠在一起所以他們才會需求說有沒有說我們要去討論的是說我們希望我們政府跟各個宗教團體來有沒有這樣子的研究的需求讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7561.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7584.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
北中南都有這個空間讓他們可以做禮拜我們現在就是說宗教的尊重還有保障還有讓他們有一個地方我們希望是說你要去盤點要去調查不是說我們針對這個宗教其他宗教不照顧完全沒有但是因為我們台灣也真真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7585.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7608.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
也去照顧這個宗教因為現有我們台灣沒有公用的地方所以變成他們個別他們就會自己來去就是找地方或者是因為做禮拜只有休禮拜六日所以他們的空間不夠所以他們也是有需要所以我們想要問的是說我們要找出需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7609.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7632.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
找出問題我們要來解決問題因為真真是有那麼多人的需求空間又那麼小所以我們希望說我們政府這邊有沒有說有一些我們多餘的空間或者我們政府的空間借給他們或者租給他們或者是友善的空間讓他們禮拜六日他們可以使用是這樣子的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7635.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7652.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
對 不能說我們只要注重說我們現有的台灣的這個少數的我們宗教師這邊好像完全一問三不知這樣子會讓這個宗教感覺就是說你們真的沒有重視啦各位報告其實我們不是一問三不知啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7652.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7665.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
因為事實上我知道委員非常關心這個議題我們跟那個回教協會我們也在積極保持一個聯繫包括我們很多目的事業主管機關也非常重視所以剛才委員提到這個場所問題我們會跟目的事業主管機關我們來審慎來做一個研究跟委員報告希望我們就是審慎研究還有就是說把所有我們政府本來就有設的或者是各個宗教他們都有的讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7681.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7698.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
更多人知道因為很多人都是剛過來或者沒有連接到宗教他們就沒有地方的話有時候他們就在空地在階梯在每個地方他自己做這樣子的話不懂的人會嚇到所以變成我覺得是說我們要求的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7698.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7718.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
有這樣子的一個關心多保障他們讓他們有一個一個環境更好的因為他們真的不管飲食也要清潔也好他們的把他列入在他們的宗教的要求裡面所以他們是很嚴謹的所以我們政府才會設那麼多不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7719.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7747.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
的公共場域讓他們來去做禮拜所以我希望說我們市長這邊就跟各個國營也好私藝場域也好公共場域也好還有就是因為大部分他們都是家庭看護比較多所以他們是不是路途或者是就近用一個就是我們整個地圖整個地方讓他們有一個就是可以真的安靜又可以做禮拜的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7748.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7757.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
對他們更有幫助啦是這樣子的要求謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢現在我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7784.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7784.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
他們是怎樣設定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7831.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7834.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8143.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8161.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
接下來我們請黃建斌召委質詢好謝謝主席我們有請內政部劉部長請內政部劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8165.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8194.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
來 周偉豪部長好 今天本席擺這個宗教基本法其實我相信部長也很清楚我們民進黨委員其實很早就提出這個版本連署的委員也達到多達38位那民進黨的版本更早在去年10月就交付委員會來審查比今天審查的另外兩個國民黨的版本還要早這代表什麼代表我們宗教基本法的立法已經是跨黨派的這個共識那當中許多的條文也都很類同 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8195.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8209.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
至於為什麼我們要立法來保障我們的宗教自由這個也是許多專家學者們多年來的倡議我們希望藉由相關的法源作為政策推動或司法判決的依據避免許多的爭議還有衝突的產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8210.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8231.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
而這一次草委立委所提出的這些草案也都是依照我國的憲法以及聯合國宗教人權保障相關條文來草擬目的就是希望能夠落實我國憲法第13條人民有信仰宗教之自由作為憲法精神下的這個補充的細則因此我們既然草委也都有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8232.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8261.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
現在就是要來開始討論的時候其實我們內政委員會的審查過程讓各方的意見都可以充分來表達那當然也包括各機關部會的意見但這次的過程裡面內政部有兩件事情非常的不尊重立法院的委員們甚至包括我們民進黨立委在內第一件事就是說上個禮拜內政委會就發出了議程內政部作為主責機關書面報告卻直到昨天傍晚6點左右才傳電子檔到各辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8262.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8291.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那超过内政委员会要求的时间我想第一个这个非常不尊重内政委员会那第二件事情本席看了各部会的书面报告即便有一些部会对部分的条件有调整的这个意见但还都是强调说尊重立法委员们的立法职权还有立法院的决议甚至法务部还说对于我们这个规范宗教自由的保障范围宗教平等宗律原则禁止宗教歧视以及对宗教自由之限制等等的事项相关提案内容 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8292.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8297.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
內政部的書面報告裡面有提到相關立法要聆聽各界的意見但目前從內政部的態度看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8320.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8348.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
是所有部會裡面態度最強硬的而且有先入為主這個立場同時也是最不尊重朝野立委職權的部會希望這一點我們部長這邊好好來檢討跟反省接下來有一件事情我要跟部長來討論我們台東宗教文化傳承議題繼續跟內政部這邊來反映袁小姐最著名的宗教文化活動就是北天燈南風炮東韓單以及西起龜那其中台東的炸韓單不僅 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8349.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8373.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
超過60年的傳承 更是全國僅有我想這不單是台東人記憶中最重要的傳統習俗那這幾年在我們台東縣政府的推動之下規模也逐漸的擴大成為著名的這個宗教文化觀光盛事那在我們內政部這個台灣宗教文化地圖的官網上面有特別提到也介紹到台東玄武堂這個炸寒丹我想書長也要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8374.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8396.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那這樣本席就這次機會我們跟內政部來反映特別是我們宗教師就是目前台東選武黨的詐案單台東縣政府已經公告為台東縣民俗文化資產但他一直想要申請這個登錄國家籍是無形文化資產卻一直卡關那根據本席的了解這個登錄的主責機關是文化部 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8397.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8424.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
但是其實炸寒單的活動它其實橫跨了宗教跟文化兩個層面那尤其這些宮廟都是登記在我們內政部底下嘛所以這兩個部會我們是不是能好好來溝通跟合作我想不是你文化部說的就算那目前我們相關的登錄規定上都需要有像記憶啊文化知識啊這個上面的這個認證的限制這個對於許多宮廟來說都非常的有難度 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8425.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8448.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這不是代表說他們沒有這樣的內涵是這些宮廟的人員可能不知道什麼申請認證就像早上有幾個立委提到他很多東西 他不知道要怎麼申請所以加上認證的標準叫做是針對這個傳統記憶跟宗教活動的概念不能完全的來比照因此我想要請內政部的宗教師以我們台中在選舞堂設這個範例來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8451.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8477.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我們跟文化部來溝通來討論在未來申請國家級的這個無形文化市場上面是不是能夠以更簡正便民的方式來申請要讓我們國家的力量一起來守護全台這個僅有的宗教文化活動這個是不是能請部長來允諾那也請相關單位在一個月以內跟文化部來討論研議並提供本辦公室一份報告書 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8480.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8494.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
謝謝委員的關心事實上台東這個炸寒單這是全國非常知名的也是吸引每年非常多的宗教的一個觀光客這是一個我們有形的不管是五喜有形的一個真的是很好的一個活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8495.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8500.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以這次也跟委員報告我們在宗教師的立場既然是寺廟辦活動不管是文化部我們會協同文化部一起來推動這活動讓它更具有特色至於委員剛才有交代的他在登錄的時候碰到的一個瓶頸相信我們會來跟文化部來了解到底是不是文化部來再跟委員來做一個具體的說明這我們來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8520.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8535.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
對 其實本席問過廟方這邊他們一直說我一直都簽不過去他可能用其他的方式所以這個我們站在內政部主管機關的立場我們來協助廟宇來做這個跨部會的討論讓這件事情可以行 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8536.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8553.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我想這個是很多台東人也期待我們也希望說這樣的文化活動當然隨著時空環境的改變有一些陋習我們要來修正但是這個精神我們希望能夠延伸下去這屬於我們政府的理由來倒三缸這順暢屬於我們來倒三缸部長是不是可以來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8556.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8580.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
協助這件事情但責成教安部會我們市長有提到就是我們會跟文化部一起來協助那還有委員剛有提到說好像我們法務部的寫法跟那個我們自己內政部不一樣那法務部的代表這邊您可不可以問他一下那另外我致歉一下就是說因為我們是要宗教諮詢委員的每個委員都問過才會把它寫到書面報告裡面所以會比較晚送到大院來這個請委員能夠見諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8582.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8596.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們都提到這件事我們真的希望說讓大家能夠更充分來討論這件事情當然發生的事情就發生我們未來能夠改善就能夠改善因為這是我們整個委員會委員這是本縣我這次議會的標端也謝謝部長跟市長的言諾謝謝謝謝黃建斌召委也謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8626.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8630.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好 接下來我們請徐宇貞委員發言謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有行政院人權及轉型正義處廖副處長好 請上單位 謝謝徐委員好 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8646.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8665.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
部長 台灣是一個宗教多元而且自由的一個社會喔那尤其宗教團體長期在穩定人心 心辦這個慈善還有教育文化上其實有很大的貢獻大家都很有目共睹喔那我想現在我們看一下我們的這個國家的法治環境喔你可以看一下對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8666.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8666.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8693.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8722.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
以台湾信仰人口最多的佛教跟道教的寺庙管理他们的法源这个依据是监督寺庙条例所以本席要先请教这个部长您知道这个是什么时候制定的法律吗18年距离现在非常久民国几年18年那请问一下部长你知不知道这个民国18年的时候我们中华民国的政府是定都在哪里不在台湾 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8722.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8748.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
就定都在南京是嗎所以在南京的中山林我們可以看到那一年中山林剛剛蓋好那也是我們國父孫中安先生剛好入葬南京中山林的時間這已經是100多年前了我們現在還在用民國18年制定的法律管理寺廟事實上是非常的離譜所以現在行政院的也今天有請人權及轉型正義處的副處長來備詢說 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8752.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8766.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
行政院已經要制定反歧視法了所以不需要宗教基本法那副處長可以說明一下嗎為什麼已經可以就是因為制定反歧視法所以不需要宗教基本法這是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8767.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8790.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們目前在研擬當中的反歧視法草案把宗教信仰這個特徵也列入禁止歧視的特徵但是在我們的書面報告當中也有提到並不是說我們這是為了落實宗教自由的保障跟平等不歧視的原則我們並沒有提到說因為有反歧視法的規定所以宗教基本法是不是就不需要制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8790.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8797.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以你們也不反對這個制定宗教基本法嗎只是你們會在另外再有一個這個反歧視法是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8798.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8823.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
宗教基本法這個部分我們尊重主管機關的權責還有各位委員的審議但是就是反歧視法這邊其實就是在宗教方面是把它列入禁止歧視的特徵那再請教一下部長剛剛我們有提到的就是說這個是在將近100多年前民國18年制定的有監督寺廟條例那請問部長您認為用這樣子的一個制定監督寺廟條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8825.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8831.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
民國18年100多年前的這個法令來來管理現在的那個台灣的鐘廟您覺得這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8834.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8861.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我想是這樣子那個不合時宜的地方我們會改進所以我們很多解釋的法令在18年之後我們在內政部裡面的很多包括有些暫行條例就是跟著他一直在修正也就是說現在很多不同的宗教裡面的需求的話如果不適合譬如說徐委員已經看到我認為以現在台灣的這個社會大概沒有辦法把監督寺廟條例這個監督兩個字擺進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8863.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8884.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
然後還有我們也不能講寺廟通常我們都講宗教或是不同的廟宇所以我們未來會朝著這個方向但是是在法律面的一個修正而不是基本法部長 其實針對這個部分為什麼宗教界是期望說立法院能夠早點 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8885.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8909.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
早日制定這個基本法主要就是因為在108年的時候財團法人法的立法過程中宗教界會擔心政治的手深入宗教所以他們才會請求立法院要禁訴立法那尤其是我們這次所提出的宗教基本法的草案版本跟過去很大的不同他目前有6條而且是具體化了我們中華民國憲法第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8911.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8929.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
跟第13條的抽象保障所以保障所以部長在不改變和憲法核心保障平等跟信仰自由的前提之下政府要如何處理宗教團體自治跟國家利益如果公共利益有衝突的狀況之下我們政府要如何管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8930.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8953.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
在現在的現行的條文當中完全了解徐委員在詢問的焦點這就是我們在整合上碰到比較大的困難包括我們其實每一年都有請一些學者教授提供給我們一些意見但是我們真正把它變成一個法律來要管所有的宗教確實是很大的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8953.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8972.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
因為剛剛委員也提到譬如說行政院的人權處要做反歧視法那反歧視法他可能會排除宗教因為宗教他是個比較心靈的或是精神方面的部分但是我們現在我很清楚這個要要建立一個宗教基本法確實很困難他也確實要很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8972.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8979.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
很多的問題需要克服但是我們也不能因為難就不做所以為了所以為了妥善的管理這個各項的我們現在所面臨到的問題那所以我們是認為應該先有基本法那我們再來制定執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8988.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9017.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
然後妥善的來管理我們所有的相關的問題這樣才是根本之道而不是遇到困難我們就退縮應該是要用什麼樣的方式來去處理所以這個部分請部長針對我們《宗教基本法》能夠再多一些的關注跟多一些的時間去處理那當然我想這個部分大家沒有辦法在今天有怎麼樣的結論但是我覺得充分的討論然後盡快的制定我們的《宗教基本法》是有這個必要性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9018.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9032.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
如果委員有這樣提的話如果在立法院裡面會有不同的公聽會然後也邀請不同的這個宗教團體來表達他們的立場那我們在收整意見會更多元因為全台灣各地 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9033.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9054.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們到各地縣市地方證 包括民政單位我想我也會非常清楚民政單位的意見跟中央的意見也不一定完全一樣這是我們碰到很大的整合商會的困擾對 希望部長能夠針對這個部分中央基本法的部分多一點的時間來辦不管是公聽會什麼讓大家能夠多一些的討論但是也不能拖因為我們不能再用一百多年前的法律來去管理現在的寺廟 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9056.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9069.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
另外再請教部長一個問題就上週三大陸將實名的台灣詐欺犯以小三通的方式遣返金門請問部長目前兩岸的共打機制是不是已經終止或處於失能的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9071.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9096.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
報告委員 兩岸共打機制的主管機關除了我們警政單位以外也有法務部那我只能回應警政機關的部分那我們兩岸共打的一個樹木制其實還有而且人員上面的溝通跟交流還在那上禮拜他們這樣丟爆了10名的我們的這個詐欺犯回來的時候請問內政部還有像移民署警政署是什麼時候接獲通知的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9097.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9119.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這樣子就是他有兩批一批是實名一批是三名那但是呢他們在中國大陸的遣送單位的是他們地方上的公安那地方上的公安他們做這樣的遣送的規定有沒有報到中央的公安我們正在了解當中請問一下事前沒有獲得完整通報的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9121.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9142.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們正在了解當中因為我們什麼時候可以了解清楚呢報告委員有的時候資訊上的獲得不在我們我方但是我們我們的刑事單位已經有跟他們中央單位來了解因為像他如果未來他持續的像你說第二批的第三名因為金門據說因為是第二次金門據說他叫他搭飛機回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9143.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9154.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
其實這樣的問題的話未來可能層出不窮所以這樣的一個共打機制就是因為現在兩岸的關係這麼的緊張所以說共打機制是不是已經形同虛設未來面對這樣的狀況要怎麼處理可能部長要好好的來去思考有的時候發生這個問題並不在我方的共打機制我剛有跟我委員報告過就是說就我粗略的了解還沒有經過證實要跟我委員實際上來講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9172.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9191.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
他們的中央單位並不了解地方單位為什麼會突然在這個監管這個所謂的通緝犯或者是涉及詐欺的人有的一年就放出來了兩年就放出來然後就直接送到他們覺得最近的這個港口或者最近的機場那當然了我們知道這些人都是台灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9192.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9209.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那既然領有中華民國身份證的話我們的移民署不可能不讓他們回來這我們的重點在這邊那當時他為什麼就突然送到那個港口或送到機場去我們正在了解這個狀況只知道說中央的這個公安單位啦對於地方的公安單位突然有這樣的舉措 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9211.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9232.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
因為時間已經到了所以我想說我本席今天要表達就是說當這些程序繞過或者失效的時候會衍生什麼樣的問題就是司法管理的問題跟國家安全的漏洞所以這是非常的重要所以說可能請部長還有法務部這邊都要好的正視這樣的問題我們現在在那個兩岸共打機制上面這方面會加強溝通謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9237.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9256.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好謝謝徐譽貞委員的質詢接下來我們請吳啟明委員發言好我們召委還有我們一位同仁請我們內政部部長要請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9260.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9281.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
委員好 博長你好 博長針對今天宗教基本法的草案本席在這有提議兩個面向因為立法院法治局已經對宗教基本法提出了肯定的意見我們還是尊重裡面的宗教的平等與宗教的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9283.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9308.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
尤其整個的提升才能在國際的規範轉換具體可操作的制度也能提升台灣人權上的國際形象那我在這邊我整個資料來看都還沒看到行政院的版本那現在我本身也知道我們部長這邊你對這個草案的支持是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9309.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9324.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
具體的方向請部長來做說明謝謝委員大部分的委員大概就是沒有分任何的黨派色彩大家都關心宗教團體應該能夠納入我們的法律的系統裡面來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9325.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9341.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是就我們的理解我希望說未來對於宗教團體採取的是低度的管理你只要不觸犯其他的法律的話應該都比較好讓宗教可以自由的實現我們在民主社會裡面的信仰的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9342.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9358.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那所以這樣的方向的話呢提出來我比較會認為說我們是採取用法律案的方式而不是基本法的方式因為基本法的方式的話第一個我們會認為基本法現在提出來三個基本法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9358.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9377.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
可能對於這個憲法法條三個法條裡面要在統整不是那麼容易那如果是法律的話譬如說宗教團體對於他們現在的這個勸募或者是接受獻金要不要管理還有他們現在所在地尤其是比較多是在山坡地的部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9377.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9404.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
要不要符合山坡地的保育的條例那另外一個是因為歷史的嚴格太久了比如說七八十年前那個地方的山坡地的保育並沒有規範說不可以蓋廟那為什麼現在說它變成是違法那這個部分可能是當時的這個法律在制定的過程當中沒有那麼嚴謹所以我們要符合新的法律然後不要抵觸到原來舊的這個歷史上面的一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9405.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9432.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
演變的過程當中那就需要個案來管理那既然個案來管理的話就中央跟地方政府都要能夠一起坐下來講會比較好譬如說地木的變更山坡地它是不是有比較強固的建築因為我們不是為了管而管我們是希望它是為了安全而安全我們是這種心情不是為了要管你也不是為了叫你落水絕對不是這個意思但是你要能夠公開跟透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9433.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9453.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
像現在不管是監督寺廟條例或者是財團法人或是這樣子的其他的法人就是希望你不一定要跟政府來報你的財務報表雖然有些團體尤其是基督教或天主教的教團他們會按照原來的母國裡面的規範他們要跟那個政府來報稅但是如果你在信徒代表大會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9455.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9480.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
公開你的財務也是另外一種透明的方向那這樣子就慢慢慢慢把它導入正軌但是這個需要時間大廟有大廟可以比較快但是小廟有小廟的困擾所以我們會針對這個部分的不希望就一部法令就是把所有的全部管在一起那這樣子的一定到後來會比較多的漏洞這個不是我們帶多的問題而是整合上出現相當多的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9480.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9500.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那當然委員會說整合有困擾也要整合啊那我們會來努力好 謝謝部長因為這針對部長你剛才講的山坡地因為過去有很多石廟都在山坡地裡面建立石廟所以我們過去我推動宗教自然的名義奠基不動產的暫行條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9501.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9514.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
针对这一点因为我们到明年6月就到期了那是不是能再向我们国土法展演6年因为我们现在申请的有2000多件那申请的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9514.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9541.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那個案件比例還不到五成那未來是不是協助因為很多都是死了過去都是借名登記那借名登記應變更多他的三款的問題跟他的董事會有的算委員會造成很多糾紛變成說在這個部分也拜託說補充是不是研究說他的戰勝條例是不是可以再延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9542.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9545.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
跟國土計劃法一樣延長到6年 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9547.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9576.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
報告委員 那個委員也是在召委的時候把上一次的展言已經展言了但是這兩年來我給委員報告就是說這兩年來提出的家數跟前兩年差很多前兩年提出的家數有800家那現在延長兩年以後只剩下114家所以我們會針對沒有辦法展言的會去瞭解一下狀況來確定一下下次要不要繼續展言 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9577.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9596.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
因為申請的人越來越少就表示說沒辦法沒辦法 大家做展現也沒辦法解決他的問題現在是 尤其我們的宗教師這方面要怎麼來合作在寺廟 因為有很多時候你顧 已經都很久住了不接轉我們要怎麼認定 要怎麼做協助這是最重要 因為後面都是這問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9606.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9620.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以你說會做成過去10秒的問題 我們政府也已經提醒改革進行這個問題所以說在未來全部改革的 我們要怎麼去協助畢竟這是大家共同的尊重對 委員 我想你在宗教團體裡面真是尊重但是我們在所做的這些統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9629.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9634.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
沒有議員申請的 269 斤沒有正常運作的 180 斤沒辦法提出證明的 230 斤沒有連繫的 159 斤我相信這幾天所提出的廟宇 大家廟宇為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9648.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9666.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
大家就是沒辦法可以解決了因為他根本就沒意願或是不可以做這是一種 其他的沒意願的我們就把他排除嘛然後意願的資料不接轉的這要怎麼協助我之前說的部分就是這樣就是說他如果是要繼續提出行情我們來倒三天 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9666.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9677.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這兩宗只剩下一百四斤過去兩宗是八百斤這表示說我剛才說的這就表示說沒辦法透過戰刑條例解決他們的問題有時候他們沒有意願沒有聯絡 已經沒有運作了這就慢慢消毒掉所以現在如果有需要我們會再考慮但是如果不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9692.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9719.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我跟地方政府再問清楚 如果不需要 我是領域戰行條例會回到去 作用就不夠大了好 拜託我們相關單位大家去了解單獨的問題就像我說的 例如歷史 工業問題 山坡地或是前法跟後法的適用的問題或者是其他的相關的行政命令可以幫忙處理的 我們會幫忙處理因為有些縣市地方政府確實很積極在幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9720.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9732.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
但是有些縣市地方政府都放在那所以我們會幫忙 會較早所以如果有這種個案請你隨時跟我們通知 我們會來協助 剩下半年嘛我們就盡量來感呼得嘛 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝吳啓明委員的質詢接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9756.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9764.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩有請內政部的劉部長劉部長先請劉部長先請教一下劉部長我們去年 今年到目前為止炸氣的財損多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9777.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9800.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
你是說從那個炸房條例到現在是嗎沒有就今年今年迄今報告我來我來準備一下好嗎大概826億沒有錯吧對嗎826億沒有錯嘛那小紅酥啊最近被軒然大坡被禁了小紅酥啊他炸氣的財損多少錢2億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9805.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9833.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
兩億多是2024年到現在826億全台炸雞的財損在小紅書的平台上面負責的大概是兩億多這個比例我相信大家看得蠻清楚部長也應該可以了解就是因為這樣子懸殊的比例只有小紅書被禁引發非常多的議論部長說要守法 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9835.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9859.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
小紅書高風險依照炸防條例第42條近一年這個我看的是內政部的新聞稿台灣是法治國家我們就來依法論法第一個炸防條例第42條規範的要件它在規範的是網路廣告平台業者還是在規範炸氣網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9864.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9884.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
來我們看一下法條好不好為了處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸詐欺網站他講的是詐欺網站不是網路廣告平台業者第二個42條絕對不是像你們現在這樣解釋適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9889.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9912.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
沒有42條他要處理緊急性的案件他沒有相關的要件標準跟程序他是一個緊急性在移除一夜市的詐欺網站所適用的法條我們再往下看部長說小紅書他拒絕落地不能不遵守台灣的法律那抽象的概念上面來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9914.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9942.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
並不是說錯但我們來看一下打炸條例的規範是什麼因為我現在發覺我們大部分的人在討論這個問題的時候什麼大家都沒有依照法律來討論我為什麼講這件事情來看一下在新文化防治條例網路廣告平台業者利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務達到一定的規模適用本條例的規定沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9945.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9971.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那按照目前適用本條例規定的網路廣告平台業者要交由主管機關來公告納管的名單那目前納管的名單有哪些現在小紅書還沒有納進去不過這個是我們先一樣一樣來我們要利用詐欺危害防制條例那我們台灣是法治國家就要依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9973.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10000.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
網路廣告平台業者要依照打造條例納管必須要達到一定的規模由速發布來公告目前速發布公告的有FB有Google有Meta有Line目前依照這個條例納管的網路廣告平台業者只有這四家我的資訊有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10003.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10030.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
沒有錯嘛那小紅書如果你們認為有必要要納管那是主管機關要納管因為我先帶你們看法條規範的要件你要被納管了以後才有法尊的要求這些法尊的要求包括了要求你要在我國落地要指定代理人或管理人要要求他們執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10032.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10053.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
打詐條例的法尊措施但問題是我現在我完全看不懂在幹嘛你說小紅書沒有符合我們的法尊要求但問題是你根本連公告納管都沒有啊我現在完全看不懂啊我們的主管機關到底是怎麼在適用法律的你如果認為小紅書很嚴重那就把他納管你一方面又不納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10063.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10075.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
你不那管怎麼樣去要求他符合打詐條打詐條例的法尊要求這是法條白紙黑字寫在上面可以示意一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10080.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10109.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
報告委員我想您講的部分當然是在法條上的適用的問題啦台灣是法治國家當然是有法律啊當然我完全同意台灣是法治的國家但是我們通知小紅書他也沒有接受我們的通知啊我們是有把這個訊息通知到他兩回事齁你說不能不遵守台灣法律那要遵守台灣法律依照打炸條例的要求依照打炸條例的要求就是要公告納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10110.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10134.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那你也沒有公告他是要納管的範圍因此沒有辦法啟動打詐條例29條以下所有的程序規定我對法條的解釋應該是沒有錯啦現在我完全看不懂我們的政府在幹嘛跟人民說小紅書詐騙很嚴重所以我們要禁但是又沒有依照打詐條例把他納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10135.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10163.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
然後突然用了一個在豆腐一頁是詐欺網頁的打詐條例42條這根本法律適用錯誤啊我們為什麼要納管LINE要納管Google要納管Meta因為上面詐騙的訊息太多了嘛所以賦予他們義務我告訴你上面有詐騙的訊息你要移除喔你如果不移除我會處罰你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10165.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10192.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是所有的這些義務的要求全部都建立在一個前提上這個網路廣告平台業者必須要被公告納管納管進來了以後你必須要依照打詐條例符合這些配合打詐的要求你如果不配合我接下來啟動法律效果罰你錢啊採取各式各樣法律授權的手段啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10193.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10214.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
但是我現在看到內政部在做這件事情是自己完全不守法第一個 我不同意內政部完全守法第一個 它沒有納管啊我們要請它來 它都不理我們啊對嘛 請你回去看法條好不好你如果覺得它有納管的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10216.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10233.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們的行政院我們的主管機關該做什麼把他公告成為納管的範圍你必須要遵守你如果不遵守接下來會發生ABCDE打在條例寫得很清楚了但我的書發部根本沒有納管他 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10234.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10260.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以根本沒有去看29條的法律構成要件然後我再帶您看一次網路廣告平台業者依照打炸條例27條利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務且達一定規模適用本條例的規定那覺得小紅書規模很大有達到這個規模那你就應該要公告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10261.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10285.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
全項一定規模的計算基準由數位經濟相關產業主管主管併資那就速發部要公告啊你也沒有公告把他納管然後你就說他上面詐騙很多然後就限制他然後你限制他引用的條文所以我剛才問你回到你們所引用條文的42條 42條幫出 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10288.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10315.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
當初訴發部的次長現在訴發部的部長我在審法案的時候他說明得很清楚說第一個他必須要涉及到詐欺犯罪所以我才說那個網頁本身被你block住的那個網頁本身他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他封鎖的是詐騙網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10316.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10344.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
他不是在封鎖網路廣告平台業者上面有詐騙廣告這是兩回事因為知識體大我一定要講清楚如果可以用42條直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者那打詐條例29條以下的規定形同俱文 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10345.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10365.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
因為29條規定的那麼繁複幹嘛還要公告納管還要遵守一定的程序還要罰錢不用啊42條帝王條款網路廣告平台業者我不公告納管也沒有關係我只要覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10366.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10394.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
你上面有詐騙的廣告我直接用42條封這絕對不是打岔條例當初立法上面的設計42條如果可以拿來對付廣告平台業者的話那29條以下的規定形同具穩通通都不需要了現在我很狐疑啦內政部在做這個決定以前在做這個決定以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10395.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10420.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
有跟法務部或者是訴發部會商過嗎有嗎我們有在其他的場合上開會在哪裡開會在會議紀錄可以給我嗎沒辦法因為這是沒有關係啊你就告訴全台灣民眾你們在哪裡開會因為我很詫異啦內政部如果看不懂打詐條例或許情有可原 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10421.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10438.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
如果連法務部都看不懂那就知識體大請問在什麼地方徵詢過法務部的什麼官員我們在行政院的時候有開會討論過這個部分然後法務部的代表有來那個法務部的參事今天有來嗎來請參事請法務部參事內政部打詐條例42條這樣適用法務部是贊成的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10451.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10470.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我真的很驚訝報告委員因為我們今天是法治司列席我所接觸到的公文我是沒有看到有這樣一個含詢的公文沒有這樣含詢的公文就含詢的公文我是沒有看到但是我剛剛問的問題意思你應該聽得清楚嗎你應該聽得懂吧是您聽得懂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10471.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10492.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我有很認真在聽不過這部分涉及到主管機關對法令的解釋解釋上當然如果有些疑義的話可能還是要回歸跟主管機關之間的對話所以法務部是不便表示意見就對了就這一題的話我覺得還是要看主管機關跟委員之間的對話會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10492.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10517.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這不是主管機關跟我的對話 台灣是法治國家法律一生效具有普遍全面適用性這個是政府跟人民的對話現在連人民都看不懂了連人民都看不懂 打炸條例42條可以這樣用喔哇 我的老天啊那42條可以這樣用 29條以下全部都廢了啦42條是超級帝王條款FB LINE |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10520.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10542.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
Google29條以下都不要看啦42條以後只要在那個網路平台頁折上面有詐欺的廣告在上面我直接用42條就屏蔽了什麼時候把這條例賦予主管機關這樣的權限因為剛剛部長說他們有在其他的場合徵詢法務部的意見我聽了這句大驚失色 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10543.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10569.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這是法務部的專業意見啊這個可能要再跟部長確認沒有關係你就回去確認沒有關係你就回去確認嘛我就回去確認啊因為剛剛部長說有在其他場合遇到法務部有交換意見啊那我非常的詫異啊是不是可以請你回去的時候轉呈部長回去問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10570.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10595.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
法務部什麼時候什麼人表達過這樣的法律意見知識體大非常嚴重因為我現在是依法論法我沒有在搞什麼意識形態沒有在進行什麼政治操作當然我也不是什麼小紅書的代言人我自己根本沒有在用小紅書但是我接到很多人反應因為上面好像做很多的是彩妝 化妝的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10598.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10625.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
可能都是一些比較我們的就是一些對化妝有興趣或者是其他什麼服飾有興趣的人在看的我自己是沒有用但是後來這個風波搞得這麼大我稍微把法條看一看在看了內政部的解釋我看了我只能夠說我就是大驚失色大驚失色打詐條例當初在審議的時候一條一條做下來審是涉法不是這樣用的今天警政署有代表來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10627.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10647.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
來請政署的代表是誰告訴你們42條可以這樣用是哪一位法律專家告訴你們42條這樣用跟委員報告這個造房條例第42條就像剛剛委員您非常清楚所提到就是說其實所謂的一定規模我們這個前面的部分是依據造房條例27條公告列管的網路廣告平台業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10648.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10672.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那因為在當初小紅書他每一個月獨立的訪客數只有42萬人是所以他沒有達到我們的這一個不是啊那我就看不懂啊所以跟您報告啊那你如果覺得他的詐欺規模很大很嚴重就公告納管啊所以我們在用的四十二條就是針對這個並沒有他未達規模沒有納管的我們的立法意志裡面四十二條規範的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10674.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10680.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
是詐欺網站還是網路廣告平台業者我們現在是網路平台業者詐欺網站來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10696.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10713.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
只要上面有詐騙的訊息它就構成了詐欺網站是嗎 你的法律解釋是這樣嗎跟委員解釋一下 我們是說當初我們的立法意思當初是說為了要防止民眾去接觸詐欺網站所以不管是司法警察機關或者是各目的世界專機關就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10714.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10733.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
只要是有緊急案件的狀況就有機制處理的必要就會通知網際網路接取服務提供者但是你完全沒有回答問題請你不要看著你的稿在念因為我請教你的問題你現在手上背的稿完全沒有辦法回應問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10734.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10747.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
你不要在那邊裝忙讓在看這個直播的人覺得說好像你講的很有道理但是大家仔細一聽發現你在念稿根本沒在回答問題剛剛你講的緊急性必要性的要件聽得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10748.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10776.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
要防止炸雞的目的大家聽得懂可以採取的措施大家聽得懂但是我現在跟你在討論的是規範的課題42條規範的課題當初在立法的時候處理的是炸雞網站什麼叫炸雞網站這個網站從頭到尾都要炸雞就你們在抓的所謂一夜市的網站那本身就是犯罪行為他是犯罪行為人的犯罪工具那現在什麼叫網記 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10778.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10794.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
廣告平台業者FB是嘛LINE是嘛Google是嘛他們在上面有人在上面刊登一些東西廣告上面有詐欺的訊息這是兩件不一樣的事耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10797.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10822.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
42條用的是詐欺網站不是網路平台業者所以我很好奇誰告訴警政署我們針對網路廣告平台業者可以用42條的這是我的問題因為法條白紙黑字那個你可以看一下螢幕你可以看一下螢幕那個法條的文字我怕你忘記我還把他列在上面給你們看誰告訴你可以用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10823.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10851.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
網路廣告平台業者上的因為我們是同時是因為他是詐欺網頁詐欺網站所以我們會令我們是讓令他提供接取服務的提供者同時要做停止解析或者去限制接取所以我們是在講是說這個是網路平台業對你在看上面就寫詐欺網站所以我就問你一題嘛你們42條的解釋這個詐欺網站包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10852.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10866.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
網路廣告平台業者是嗎你如果這樣子解釋的話我跟你講要出大事了不是不是那問題來啦你除非說整個小紅書就是詐欺網站否則你怎麼屏蔽 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10867.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10891.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
你認為小紅書整個就是詐欺網站嗎整個小紅書就是詐騙行為人在進行詐騙用的網頁嗎是嗎 包圍我們現在針對是街道檢舉跟以及有受理報案的詐欺的網頁去做停職解析先停一下喔所以你現在是小紅書上面只涉及到詐欺的停職解析還是整個小紅書都停職解析 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10893.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10914.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
因為針對他的去接取的這些的提供者我們會一併的會去做這方面的一個體制解析對不起你沒有跟限制接取你沒有回答我的問題如果按照你今天的解釋可以成立的話那FB上面啦只要有詐欺廣告整個FB你都可以用42條屏蔽耶這是天大地大的事耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10915.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10930.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
當初打詐條例就不是這樣設計的啊所以我一直在問你們啊你們在動用這個條文的時候到底請教了什麼法律專家什麼法律主管機關告訴你們打詐條例42條可以這樣用啊這是我的問題誰提出這個專業的看法42條如果給你們警政署這麼大的權利啊那嚇死人啊真的嚇死人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10945.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10968.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那速發部幹嘛要公告一定規模才要納管不用啦大大小小的任何即使不是詐欺網站之本身即使是廣告平台業者上面有詐欺的訊息我就可以用42條屏蔽我再說一次打詐條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權限打詐條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10974.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11003.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我要拜託警政署你們回去你們回去好好再看一看當初打炸條例在研擬的過程當中在研擬的過程當中42條是這樣用的喔我完全不敢相信啊42條絕對不是這樣用的因為42條如果可以這樣用我再說一次29條以下的規範形同句文毫無意義那現在出了這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11004.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11028.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
你們引用了錯誤的法條把自己的權限擴張到這麼大那新聞已經鬧成那麼大了連總統都出來力挺了連總統都出來力挺喔我看賴清德總統應該也是沒看過法條了相信你們現在出了這麼大的包接下來怎麼收拾你們自己回去好好想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11029.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11052.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
真的你們自己回去好好想一想我再次建議你們回去好好看一看42條當初怎麼擬出來的包委員可能有所誤會我們就是針對我們所蒐集到受理報案的詐欺網頁會喊給TWNIC去做這個停止解析所以我常問你嘛所以整個小紅書在你的定義裡面它就是詐欺網頁是嗎它是詐欺網站嗎是嗎是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11057.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11070.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我們基本上就是依照這個規定去做停止解析你就不要再強制剝離了啦你就回答一個問題嘛整個小紅書在警政署的眼中是一個詐欺網站是符合42條構成要件的詐欺網站是嗎是這樣解釋的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11074.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11084.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
是12條當初的立法 意思是這樣嗎我告訴你啊任何 任何沒有 沒有關係你回去世界上各個國家哪一個國家為了打詐給我們的警察機關這麼大的權利哪一個國家可以讓你這樣子解釋不要去栽贓齁說我們不打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11103.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11129.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
打詐打得很兇啦班委員這個真的是誤會我們其實不是光小紅書我們在Meta那個IG我們只要是你有涉及詐欺的網頁我們都會含蓄給TW進行這個停止解析的動作所以呢你講那個部分我們其實事實上沒關係啦你可以繼續開記者會自言自語我直詢的point我相信有看的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11130.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11144.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
完全都catch到了我也不要浪費大家的時間那你們就回去好好想一想這樣子字義的解釋法條擴全到這種程度接下來你們要怎麼收拾就好了謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來我們請聽學中文發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11162.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11168.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
感謝召委我請宗教理事林市長市長這個宗教機關法跟委員報告宗教 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11181.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11194.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
宗教諮詢法宗教諮詢法是宗教諮詢基本法這是有三個版本嘛對 董國民黨一個版本還有樂園園支委一個版本然後我們許立委一個版本對 我們將這個官官將他們送來輸贏這個稅贏有分隊償還 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11205.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11212.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
不是反對因為我們現在說結合大家的共識結合大家共識以後我們再來慢慢來擬定對啦我們這個宗教基本法一直有宗教團體都非常期待是真正我具體提出30億的冠軍是但是到這一屆縮減到全裸的裸掉了是這就是去除爭議希望可以看出 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11234.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11254.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們這個宗教基金花的地盤現在已經高中我們宗教主流大家都清楚第七條是宗教的競爭第十三條高中宗教主流但同時土耳其的海水也已經高中我們中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11257.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11261.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我全宗教的福祉、骨骼也沒有完整,臨頂五分是危險的, |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11266.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11276.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
部分是危險的尤其是當這要提前一點宗教管理可以用老法令也可以靠行政之道要有完整法律的架構讓這個基本法可以存在更久的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11290.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11293.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
其實我們現在針對宗教團隊的輔導啦除了說是我們有一個建築事業條例 但是因為當初司法院的解釋裡面 也覺得說他這個稍微不適合所以我們要去聽聽很多解釋 包括大法官揮世智啦我們要做來解釋 其實我們現在對宗教輔導最主要的就是我們輔導他一定要地平 組織章程不管你的行為 你的收支 你的算計 你後面就是你的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11320.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11334.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
你要訂定一個組織商城你選舉 你有信任代表 要有幾個你的主委是怎麼選舉的或是針對家來低度管理來輔導他有沒有違法這個問題對啦 所以就是我們現在總共大家都有可能會看區域出國去考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11345.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11356.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
大家都常常有像我前陣子也這樣人家都在跟我說 拜託說明年要去種植物 要去掛樹種稿交流 這是主要的啊這是主要的嘛 市長對 大家有報告 其實我們是不能夠去啦不過我們現在就要建立一個健康 要說有序的重要交流但是 但是我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11369.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11378.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們是真正跟他們說你們可以去這是自由的沒有 大家要報告啦我是鼓勵說你如果真的需要你的中澳交流你一定要注意你跟我們講自由的不可以講無法接受的就是要給我們智慧嘛這樣智慧讓他們像我們就有很大的一個壓力你知道嗎是讓他們像我們就有很大的壓力像我已經跟你們說了說我要去大陸交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11394.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11398.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
但是過去常常發生到,我去大陸交流,回去被人家帶去調查常常發生到這個,當我們分明關,我就看到整個案子這讓我們的總督團隊,他們有一個很安定的身分證 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11413.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11419.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
其實我們中港交流其實是自由的自由之後就是說我都鼓勵說你如果要去台中進行一定要去我們的網站裡面登錄你是對一個中港團體你或是別人去其實那個網站我差不多七天左右就可以看到了最主要是要保證說你去可以安全去安全回來我們的組織像這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11438.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11440.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
安全當然,我們要讓他們有這個觀念,不是說你來給我登記就是當時的總紀委給我拿去調查,今天有勤,是當時生機營,還在錄影廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11453.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11461.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
三幾年 只要邀約去大陸宗教交流去營養 關於家族回來好 這些都不用再去調查這是事實 我說這是事實我也不會說後面去跟你們 後面看看什麼後面去親自跟你們說說什麼我講這是事實希望我們宗教交流可以更加健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11479.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11482.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們要讓宗教還留有正義的阿嬌讓他們山上苦衷大的阿嬌宗教可以放人上山可以有社會經濟更好我們要用正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11494.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11505.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
把宗教的這個風格保護他這樣好不好謝謝胡議員其實我們的宗教交流我們屬於應該是我所了解沒有正式的介入啦其實我們現在會回來譬如說已經打了交流之後回來之後那就是涉及到說他有外在行為因為我們宗教的隊伍內部你說宗教信仰我說去啊去參與什麼你如果外在行為說跟錢有關嗎跟等等有關嗎那就是另外一個角度啦還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11522.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11527.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
應該是 如果是單純的宗教交流應該是沒那麼難對啦 到目前為止你們可以查到說因為宗教交流來去違反了國家的什麼體制的範圍應該是都沒辦法的我們會積極來輔導對啦 這個國分再快一點好 市長好 辛苦謝謝 感謝卓飛 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11547.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11575.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
謝謝第一學中委員的質詢接下來我們請許志傑委員發言許志傑委員許志傑委員不在請蘇清泉委員發言蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在我們請羅賓才委員羅賓才羅賓才委員不在現在請岳元之委員發言主席好 麻煩請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11578.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11587.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
請劉部長委員好部長好今天大家討論的宗教基本法那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11588.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11608.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
內政部的立場是認為說因為憲法已經有相關規範了所以沒有必要再去訂定宗教基本法但本席是認為這樣邏輯不存在因為實際上憲法有規定很多事情後來也都有訂定基本法憲法認為教育很重要我們也有相關教育的基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11609.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11632.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我覺得部長不要先入為主如果說內政部對於宗教基本法相關法條的細節你認為哪裡有問題哪裡有問題我覺得這個可以在審查法案的時候來討論但不要先入為主認為說沒有必要啦就說這個不要立我覺得這個已經就是剝奪大家討論這事情的空間了所以我還是蠻支持主席今天排 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11633.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11651.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
排這個案子 備詢我希望說下次如果還有進一步的時候內政部可以用一個比較開放的態度來討論這個事情畢竟我覺得宗教 自由這個是非常上位的人權跟自由的概念那是非常需要受到重視應該要有一個上位的法律啦我問過部長可不可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11651.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11679.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是 謝謝委員委員今天的發言我們都聽到了那就是宗教基本法我們也是就那個每一個條文裡面的宗教基本法有沒有抵觸到我們現在一般的實體法令也提出我們見解那大部分的人都希望說行政院提出一個宗教基本法但是在內政部到目前為止整理的意見剛剛我們已經說過很多次就是我們的宗教諮詢委員大概有90%認為現在沒有公示因為這個你很多講我只能問一個態度啦所以聽起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11680.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11705.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
聽起來你不反對定宗教基本法嗎我比較傾向說我們是先訂定譬如說宗教團體法而不是基本法因為如果你要講基本法的概念的話可能我們牽涉到的就是要把我覺得這個不然這也沒有什麼一定要先再怎麼樣後啦我也不覺得一定有什麼前後抵觸基本法的位階跟一般法律的位階是不一樣的不然你就可以同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11706.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11723.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
訂出來大家一起討論也可以啦來看看是不是一定要先訂你講的宗教傳統法這也是一個方向要嘛就一起提出來討論啦就不要用黨的態度啦欸沒有沒有我想OKOK你如果是支持的你如果是支持我覺得大家就往前推進啦就是什麼方法分進合集或 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11723.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11741.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
說怎麼樣我覺得OK但是大家就往前推進了然後我也來問一下這個有關於詐欺問題因為我早上的時候看張志仁委員問部長張志仁委員是擔心說因為現在小紅書進一年之後會出現很多VPN或是翻牆的軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11742.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11765.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那可能會出現很多假的小紅書或者是假的VPN然後就會讓不熟悉網站的人他可能以為他上了一個假的小紅書或上一個VPN但實際上這個VPN跟這個小紅書可能是一個詐騙網站也就是說你在禁止小紅書的同時你也助長了很多詐欺網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11766.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11774.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
存在的這樣的一個效果所以他問部長說那這部分怎麼辦那我那時候看部長的回答是說你無法處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11775.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11799.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我有沒有誤會這個我想不是這樣子那你要因為你那時候說這不是你管理的範圍不是我的意思就是說有一部分在這個詐欺犯罪危害條例裡面有一部分是數位經濟的產業主管機關他們在負責的那這個警政署所負責的部分是在抓跟這個詐欺有關的部分那如果有詐欺網站出現的話我們會繼續抓但是會比較不容易抓得到我覺得有點本位主義為什麼因為這件事情確實是你進小紅書所引發出來的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11805.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11826.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那當然站在政府機關的立場尤其是我們還有打詐中心本來就要把這個可能的效果也有委員提醒你們就要納入去思考說什麼去規範那你說不關內政部的事可是問題是你回答的讓我感覺在推嘛不然你就把它擔下來嘛因為你今天打詐你現在進小紅書出來發言的都是內政部的次長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11827.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11854.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
也是歸你管的啊報告那個內政部的次長他是行政院詐欺是沒有錯你當然可以但是我就覺得就本位主義嘛今天就是因為內政部次長報告靜曉夫這件事情所以大家很多委員會來跟你反映嘛因為你們也畢竟也是同個單位雖然他也在行政院打詐中心但你說他在打詐中心所以就不關我的事我雖然是他的長官可是他是另外一個任務我覺得這樣的態度太官僚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11855.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11876.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
大家不能接受所以希望所以希望不為什麼你都不對著麥克風講話對不起你這樣感覺好像我叫你罰站你不要這樣子我們和藍可親好不好我跟蔣講的話你就這樣我們來改進沒有沒有我在跟你對話嘛我在跟你對話所以我覺得那個事情是要處理的是要處理的希望說你今天有 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11877.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11894.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
聽到委員的建議回去就不管是跟馬事員次長講或者是達到中心或者是警察反應說可能會有這次這樣的狀況第二個就是馬事員次長昨天講的東西我也覺得很奇怪叫超前封鎖他說因為他預判 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11895.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11908.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
未來小紅書一定會進入到更多的詐騙因為Meta或什麼其他的平台已經這個詐騙有合作有減少所以未來詐騙者會轉進小紅書我認為他是對網路完全不了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11909.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11937.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
因為像Meta很多詐騙的網站他是冒用名人啊冒用主播冒用名人騙大家投資什麼之類這以前大家都講很多次謝金河還生氣啊說為什麼每次反應都不下架後來當時速發部的部長唐鳳說不是不下架是防不勝防下架一個又上來一個下架一個又上來一個那這個是受眾的問題嘛你覺得他們有可能假冒名人跑到小紅書去去騙那些青少年投資嗎所以這個講這個話是完全對 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11938.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11964.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我覺得對網路生態的不了解感覺是硬掰出來的啦這個部長你沒有要替他回答是不是不是因為那個馬次長他所提到的部分是在他打詐中心的職責那如果裡面有這些發言上面引起委員困擾的部分我們來檢討喔喔所以好好好那請你轉達因為有人蠻會推的耶太極高手 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11967.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11989.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我說你太極拳應該打得不錯我不會太極拳好 那既然這樣 趙委那我就質詢到這邊因為我比較難對應對太極高手 好 謝謝好 謝謝燕姿委員的質詢那接下來我們請高金樹委員高金樹沒委員 高金樹委員不在謝謝牛許廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11995.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12010.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
謝謝主席 劉部長 劉部長有請請部長是 呃 林委員好辛苦這今天很多委員當然今天主題是宗教基本法我們待會花點時間討論但小紅書這個事在輿論上面有很多的攻防跟風波但我覺得有些話要講講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12010.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12026.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
現在很多人去講說當初在野黨也非常支持炸防條例第42條的修正沒有錯啊當初我們就坐在這個地方討論這個但那個時候我要還原一下當時的狀況當時我們去授予行政機關可以停止解析特定的網域他其實是有理由的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12026.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12045.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
理由是什麼我們在討論所謂的平台詐騙的時候它的模式是很清楚的也就是說我運用平台的自然流量比如說Meta的也好Line的也好等等也好它都是一樣的模式也就是說我用這個網站它的社交互動然後導引它透過連結轉到一個外部的詐騙網站然後在那個網站上行使詐騙行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12046.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12068.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
部長應該不會反對我這樣說那是我們當初討論的結果不是嗎對不對是那我也是把當時在回顧一下當時的部分我們立法的意旨也寫在後面不是寫在法條裡面所以給你快速打擊去設定解析網易權益其實就是要你趕快透過平台端的協助立刻抓到網站然後把網站停止解析這個才是真正的打仗 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12069.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12097.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那今天會引起軒然大波當然是因為你把它上綱道變成可以處理平台當然你有你的說法這我們也當然敬表尊重當然也會影響到人民的生活人民自然而然會給這樣的措施一個答案結果也會有時間來公佈但我覺得要還原清楚這個事情不能說因為你們當初也支持42條所以今天這樣子就不能講不是的要把話說清楚我們當初講42條給你用的目標其實當初講得很清楚就是針對這些導引到外部網站的這些網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12098.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12116.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
進行精準打擊這個才是停止解析網易真正的用途不管詐騙來自於小紅書也好抖音也好或者是Facebook、IG、Threads或者是LINE都一樣針對這些網站去做精準的打擊跟封鎖才是真正的打詐這一點核心序可以嗎部長我想講應該沒有背離道理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12117.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12142.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
沒有 但是牛委員給我三秒鐘的時間我就是還原當時這是那個書面的資料三秒鐘到了沒關係 多一點對不起有即時處置我把上半截截掉了有即時處置的必要的時候得通知網際網路接取服務提供者也就是IASP進行體質檢析或是限制接取的處置攔阻惡意或不當網域名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12143.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12159.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以就是叫你封網站的意思叫你封網站剛剛有些委員詢問的是沒有給我們比較充足的機會來解釋我們希望重點回到打炸像內政部講的重點是打炸那要打出成績要注意回到今天的主題宗教基本法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12160.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12185.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個 部長啊這個修法也不是第一次討論了憑良心講這過去在2015、2016的時候其實就有提過一個版本的所謂的宗教基本法那這個宗教基本法談比較多的是相關的一些管制措施嘛就希望透明化、納管等等那當然地方上他就有一些意見後來這個修法就不了了之後來也曾經有當初在黨的委員提出了比較貼近這個基層宗教團體所期待的宗教團體法那這個東西又好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12186.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12201.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
保障好像又過了頭了社會輿論也有已經的反彈所以後來也撤案 最後也不了了之那今天感覺起來新的這個中校基本法本黨黨團提出的還有幾位委員提出的感覺比較介於這兩者的稍微位置光譜上來講稍微偏比較中間一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12202.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12231.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那其實我看了今天因為很多就像部長剛剛講他是一報根本法所以很多的部會機關都表達了意見但我覺得這次他的報告其實寫得蠻好的比如說農業部他說這個有關於放生這是宗教行為嘛那放生上跟公共利益有若干抵觸希望條文上做一些精進教育部講說我學校的部分要跟宗教保持一定的距離所以在條文上要更加精進我覺得這些內容我覺得即便是在議長提案的我也都可以接受但是如果因為有這些疑義然後就通通不處理也不討論這樣是不是有點奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12232.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12257.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
部長再請問一下你的看法報告委員第一個我們行政院目前為止並沒有提宗教基本法因為宗教基本法不在於內政部的位階所以按照內政部跟很多地方的公廟團體或地方政府接觸我們覺得現在有可能最大公約數在提出宗教團體法而不是用宗教基本法並不是說我們從頭到尾都反對因為我們跟宗教團體接觸的機會真的非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12258.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12274.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
像民意代表到處也都接觸到所以我們希望用法律來服務這些宗教團體而不是說就是直接講說自由那自由就是變成都沒有限制的自由這個是我覺得不是太妥當的地方本長黨團體他基本上也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12275.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12300.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
很原則性的一些規範那當然若干條文可以做精進我相信大家會用開放的心態來看待但我覺得既然都要討論不管是剛剛部長講可能是由部裡面來提宗教團體法或者是說現在也許宗教基本法往下進到討論的階段的時候我覺得若干的其實講白了就是劃線嘛那我希望的是劃線的時候至少得到行政計畫比較具體的回答比如說農業部講說放生我們要怎麼寫教育部講說學校我們要怎麼寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12301.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12320.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我覺得每一個條文有一些具體的行政機關的建議那他也許他就可以往前走要不然如果提一個比如管制色彩很濃的地方一定反對提一個如果只有很空泛的權力保障的可能行政機關會有異議那到最後這整件事還是如同2015到現在已經10年了還是會空轉我覺得也不太好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12320.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12331.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那如果是部長剛剛有講嘛你的宗教諮詢委員你們也開了會來進行一些討論有沒有機會是把它導引成變成現在這個版本的一些條文的修正的建議讓我們討論的時候可以更具體而且也更落實呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12332.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12349.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這個是一個方向但是站在我們的立場因為我們剛剛有提到我們有討論過他在憲法位階上面所以用宗教基本法這樣子的部分就是也有委員提到說宗教的定義到底是什麼有些心理成長的課程你就要列為是宗教所以我才會說由下而上會比由上而下 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12355.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12382.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
因為所有的委員的版本都知道要尊重憲法然後也有人贏兩公約我們都不會反對但是到底是由下而上還是由上而下這個兩者之間所以我剛才提到就是說站在我們內政部可以接觸到的宗廟團體的範圍內的話取一個宗教團體法先來可能可行性會比較高但是因為今天的這個討論版本是三個宗教基本法為主所以我們就沒有表達我們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12383.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12405.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
如果講議事室行政院可能內政部有在研擬宗教團體法對不對 一個布版的那這個有沒有時間表咧好久以來就有這樣的說法但是因為每次委員不是各位委員 這個宗教諮詢委員可能有不同的意見嘛出去就回來幾乎都沒有辦法有共識這也是我們在立法過程當中碰到的困擾你遇到的具體困擾 沒關係那我覺得今天因為今天只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12406.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12429.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
要不要討論其實要收集更多的意見讓他能夠完整而且可以被落實我想取得一個平衡點才是各方所樂見的一個結果所以我剛也建議就是說要不要在立法院裡面有類似這樣的公聽會或什麼的沒關係這是議題嘛要不然我每年也是委託很多大學來處理這個來內政部相關的因為今天當然你修法按照往例當然就提供修法意見而已嘛但其實剛剛部長在回答很多委員答詢的時候有講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12430.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12452.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
還有比如說宗教你們內部資訊委員會的會議記錄啊或者是相關的一些跟這個法條跟你修法方向相關的一些資料是不是可以先提供給內政委員會的委員來做一下參考那未來大家不管講是基本法往前走或者是跟宗教團體法來做一定的結合至少大家有憑有據也可以比較做周延的討論是不是請內政部來提供相關的資料我們會來努力好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12457.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12474.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
好 謝謝劉徐庭委員的質詢那登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘經理發言完畢答詢結束委員高金素美琪心理所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12476.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12490.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項所列議案並定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |