| IVOD_ID |
17112 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17112 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T08:36:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T12:45:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:08:50 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc9c8519356ec592c2196c78c3c46cc4a0d5e67b2ed516237527089dbaf6afaf265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查監察院函請審議「審計部組織法第七條、第十條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:10 - 12:45:00 |
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1617.851 |
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1645.583 |
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報告聯席會初席委員19人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開始開會我們先介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員我們先介紹在場委員我們有黃國昌委員還有審計部審計長陳瑞民審計長權敘部法規師王永大司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1646.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1659.732 |
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行政院主席總處公務預算專委黃子漢還有行政院人事行政總處主編人力處專委廖正文 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1665.457 |
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1681.272 |
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本次議程的排定我們是審查監察院函請審議審計部組織法第七條第十條以及第十四條條文的修正草案我們先進行提案的說明跟報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1682.594 |
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1692.168 |
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那我們首先請機關代表來做一個報告發言的時間就三分鐘我們請省紀部陳瑞敏省紀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1706.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1721.306 |
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貴委員會今日審查我們審計部組織法的修正案僅向大院表達最高敬意多年來承蒙大院委員的支持各項的審計工作均能按照計畫執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1722.788 |
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1739.643 |
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本部未應應審計環境變動及業務發展的需要審慎檢討擬計審計部主諸法第七條第十條及第十四條的修正草案緊將修正重點報告如下 |
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1740.464 |
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1753.294 |
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一 應應政府職能扣章 修正本法第七條祝賦損計長兩人 祝三人 且其中一人列政務組本部損而監督政府預算收租 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1754.764 |
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1759.788 |
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經由從85年度的11兆億元至114年度以增長至27兆億元 損盡業務業期繁重且110年間因應世衛發展難潮 徵收第六廳資訊處等專責世衛損盡 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1778.417 |
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1792.643 |
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單位後已有政治副審計長的需求 又現有中央二級機關十八個部會中僅本部副所長均為常務組 未列有正務組 均參照相關機關組織體制已有規定 並考量審計業務特性 維持現有常務 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1799.446 |
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1822.676 |
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負損季漲一至兩年內增至負損季漲易卵且劣正物質以相致破壞重要損季政策環境二 應應損季業務需求 擬修正本法第十條增至損季執行查核的損季人力本部前處增加法定編制原流 距今已逾十五年 |
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1823.416 |
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1826.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
且自112年起聚焦攸關國際民生之跨域施政議題須有損盡實務經驗豐富之損盡負責規劃與執行難限時編制言語以難應應實際需要 |
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1839.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1857.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
原依求增助損棄人力以建立有效的人才培育以升遷系統並創造留下留任優秀損棄人員之有利環境為其相關植物類等平衡你修進本法第14條本部所指損棄處損棄官兼處長植物檢測第12指等 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1863.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1872.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本部首組中央三職機關 審計處 審計官兼處長列檢任第12職等為現行中央三職機關的首長職務及職轄室一級機關首長大多列檢任第13職等故相較之下 審計處 審計官兼處長之列等已施平衡研修正調整其 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1890.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1913.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
列等至檢任第十三指等 以其平衡並合理反映其負責程度本法處處修正 續會配合政府主任的擴張以實務需要以更新加強推動各項審計業務敬請各位委員鼎力支持 早入審議通過完成修法程序 以上報告僅請主席 各位委員 女士先生主教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1918.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1926.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 謝謝陳瑞民審計長那我們接下來是不是請權敘部法規司王司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1933.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1950.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早今天聯席會議審查審計部組織法第七條 第十條及第十四條條文修正草案一案邀請全系部列席請就其修正條文涉及官制官規事項說明如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1951.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1964.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
依第七條條文依憲法規定審計部自審計長由總統提名經大案行使同意前至於本案適用偵緝政務副審計長本部尊重大案決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1966.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1992.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
二 例十條條文依照各機關職稱及官等職等言而配置準則第九條第一項第五款規定中央二級三級機關配置於一級二級單位主管兼之檢任會主管職稱其配置言而數不得高於二級單位主管職稱言而設置數之十分之七也就是百分之七十Percent |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1993.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2011.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
其訂定理由是審酌中央二三級機關檢任會主管執政主要是配置於一級二級單位主管間屬合搞性質就職務身兼關係職務結構合理性及其職責程度以維持以二級單位主管間 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2012.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2033.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
合理之延而配置比例又行政院暨首署以及行政院以外機關已經準用中央行政機關組織準則修正組織法規並訂定編制表則經依商開配置準則規定辦理審計部因各職稱之官職等及延而定義組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2036.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2060.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
配置準則相關規定現行檢任徽主管比例已達84%本次修編再增加檢任徽主管職務29人檢任徽主管比例提高至150%省著與中央二級各機關檢任徽主管職務配置之同平性嚴建議調降檢任徽主管顏額數 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2061.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2073.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
三 第十四條條文明定審計處自處長由審計官兼任責務列檢任第十二指等至第十三指等一節 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2075.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2099.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
審計部所屬中央三級審計處如住專任處長列檢任第十二職等至第十三職等以中央三級機關所長及直轄市政府一級機關所長列等上屬洪平為現行各機關有兼任主管情形者經以其本職之列等辦理職務規矩及情緒審定 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2101.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2113.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
本案在組織法上明定審計官兼任處長職務列檢任第十二職等至第十三職等未符以本職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2115.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2131.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
訂列之原則且與中央二級機關一級單位主管前夕審定之官職類等有聲同評原建議將各審計處處長改為專任職務已無官制官規而且以行修正審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2133.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2161.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
整計處是組織通則相關規定這方式較屬妥適至於是定定在上級機關組織法尊重大案決議又如果考量改為專任職務將會增加額額可配合相應減少審計官的一個額額以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝王市長那我們接下來請行政院人事行政總處廖政文專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2171.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2194.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席各位委員還有先生女士大家早有關貴委員會審查監察院理據的審計部組織法第七條第十條第十四條修正草案本總處奉要列席深感榮幸請就本總處業務提出下列意見第一個中央機關組織基準法第八條第一項規定機關組織以法律定制者其內部單位之分工職長以處務規程定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2195.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2220.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
而機關組織除以法律定期、職稱、官等職等員額外應依公務人員任用法第六條、總員員任務法第六條訂定編制表並含送考試員核備基準法第十九條第二項規定二級機關得涉副首長一至三人其中一人應列常任職務其餘列正務職務第三十八條規定本法於行政院以外至中央機關准用時 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2222.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2245.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那行政機關以外之機關依前開規定為準用機關依法務部的見解相關的規定審計部如審酌其機關性質之特殊性未能全部適用亦得續名理由考量監察院考試院行政院體系相近且設有部會組織型態之附屬機關現行考試院及所屬機關均以準用基準法制定組織法的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2248.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2263.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
此次省紀部組織法修正條文也說明參考基準法第19條第二項及第38條規定政治副省紀長是以省紀部如有特殊考量應准用基準法全部條文內部單位之主涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2264.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2290.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
及執掌分別以初規程及編制表定之修正條文第7條亦可評估組織法相關規定訂定又憲法的第104條審計長是由總統提名經大院同意任命之其任命程序與一般行政機關所長不同如果有審計部有特殊考量亦得在前開函式予以說明第二個部分是有關於第10條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2291.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2320.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
增至建任第八職等第九職等職務42人其中得列檢任人數為29人這個部分因為與行政院與考試院之職務配置的部分與配置準則有所不同所以建請評估調整之必要性合理性及恆平性第三個部分是第14條名列審計處處長之職等與上開配置準則部分是考試院全管部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2321.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2324.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是否同意監察院索擬尊重大院決議 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2329.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2355.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好謝謝我們機關代表報告完畢相關的書面內容我們請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄那提案說明跟報告都已進行完畢我們現在來進行許答本聯席會的委員時間尋答是6分鐘那非本聯席會委員尋答時間為3分鐘我們就都不再延長了因為還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2356.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2366.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在審議的問題那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請第一位登記發言的委員黃國昌委員謝謝主席 麻煩有請沈記長請沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2381.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2406.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員好審計長好審計部很辛苦同仁很認真這個我都知道因此這一次提出有關於審計部的組織法希望能夠提根關等讓你們審計部的同仁不會被其他機關挖走上面的路會比較順一點基本上面的方向我是覺得值得討論不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2408.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2435.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我要說的是你今天也看得到考試院選舉部跟人事總署對你們提出來的修法意見很多書面報告我就出來了那是不是審計部不得人緣得罪太多人有關係我不要去揣測但考試院看了也不爽行政院看了也不爽你要通過這個修法審計長要多努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2436.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2460.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我只有對一個政務副審計長我在這邊公開表達反對審計長是立法院行使同意權通過的法務部部長是卓榮泰愛找誰就找誰副審計長跟一般的次長是沒有辦法相比擬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2462.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2491.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
為什麼 因為審計長是立法院通過部長隨時可以換 次長酬庸的一堆啦我們現在看各個部會 次長酬庸的一堆啊看了就知道 你現在偵涉一個政務的副審計長你不怕人家空降來監軍啊叫你審計部乖一點啊審計報告不要亂寫啊不要一天到晚指出行政機關的缺失啊你不擔心這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2493.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2514.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
立法院沒有通過欸塞一個政務副審計長給你欸一天到晚在你旁邊看著啊叫你們寫審計報告要小心一點你都不會擔心喔一點政治敏感度都沒有啊口口阿祖 口口阿祖一點政治敏感度都沒有啊 審計長我為什麼跟你說政治敏感度很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2516.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2543.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我支持你們審計部做的專業審查報告但問題是什麼你知不知道你們審計部的報告被賴政府當空氣你知不知道 審計長你知道嗎一般我們如果有審查意見我們會追蹤 會追蹤好來來來 我直接帶你看我講話向來有憑有據監察院彈劾審計部認定超思雞蛋的弊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2545.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2550.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
農業部前市長浪費公帑5億2997萬監察院彈劾了 審計部也認定我後面 審計部下面的報告文字我都列出來了損失費用高達5億2997萬卻有疏失這審計部的報告沒有錯吧我上次問農業部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2575.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2601.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
陳俊濟很傲慢啊說你們寫這個東西根本沒依據啊審計部有沒有什麼要說的直接開槍回去給你們啊你們審計部寫那什麼東西啊農業部部長就直接講啦沒有依據啦你被人家看死了啦你審計了又怎麼樣賴政府把你當空氣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2603.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2630.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
審計部說浪費了五億多農業部部長回嗆審計部沒有依據啊支持你們有什麼用支持你們沒有用啊我給你再多的元額再高的關等我甚至給你多一個常務副審計長審計人員很辛苦在查帳帳查出來納稅人損失五億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2633.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2656.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
寫出來又怎麼樣行政部門當空氣啊沈記長你看到農業部部長這樣回嗆你心不會痛喔你要不要幫沈記部的同仁說幾句話還是農業部部長賴清德的愛將摸摸鼻子算了沈記部不敢講話沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2661.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2688.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝委員關心這個案子我們對這個案子我們查到了以後我們就把它收回了兩億七千多萬移送監察院監察院也彈劾了相關人員也糾正了農業部這個部分你糾正他他說你講的沒有特別依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2690.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2697.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個因為監察這個他在這裡打刑我不知用意不知怎樣但是這兩億多將近三億我們都還沒給他核銷第二個沒有核銷那錢要怎麼辦我們會逐步追蹤他這一些錢到底因為這個法官一判其中有六千多萬是有問題的那這個我們會邀請收回 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2718.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2744.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你說你沒有給他核銷嘛那我就跟你講你為什麼被人家當空氣上一次就業安定基金被人家拿去開演唱會拍沙龍照勞動部挪用就業安定基金要給勞工的錢花了幾千萬拿去胡搞瞎搞你審計部也做報告出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2746.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2771.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
結果勞動部解決的方式是什麼審計長你知不知道他解決的方式是說錢我也沒有要追回來我再從公務預算編預算去填回去就好了浪費納稅的錢喔審計部寫出來囉我一直追勞動部部長錢什麼時候要回來給皮皮啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2773.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2799.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第一次 尋答的時候洪森漢說我們一定會去追後來呢 沒笑沒信不敢去追解決的方法是什麼我們再拿納稅的錢編公務預算然後編回去就業安定基金所以我就說嘛 你做了有什麼用你被人家當空氣啊被人家當笑話啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2801.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2828.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
啊你如果這樣子 審計部還不硬起來我再說一次啊我今天在這邊質詢 我心很痛我是在幫審計部講話審計部專業的審計人員查帳 查了一堆出來然後呢上一次人事同意權的時候我們八票都支持你我們台灣民眾黨的支持者每個都說讚 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2830.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2855.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就事論事 提好的人選 我們就同意因為你們有做事嘛謝謝但問題是什麼 做了事以後被行政院當空氣 被賴政府當空氣這個不會 因為這兩個 這剛剛講的兩個案啦第一個我們都有移送檢調第二個我們都有移送檢查案第三個我們都有做財務收支處理我直接跟沈記長講啦 我叫農業部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2858.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2886.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
去跟那個被彈劾的張經緯求償啊結果農業部部長就不肯啊他撐著啊怎麼可以跟他求償跟他求償到時候把所有的事情抖出來那還得了喔千年甚廣啊這麼多錢他一個人吃得下來喔來第二個案子就業安定基金剛剛我就講了啦你們就業安定基金再回去重新看一下真的被人家當空氣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2887.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2909.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你們被當空氣我老實講還是小事啊納稅的錢被這樣胡搞瞎搞才是大事啊來花蓮艷澀湖溢流期間環境部主責的官員跟廠商出訪歐洲考察這個案子有沒有查這案子目前沒有去查我今天直接跟沈記長檢舉他拿錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2913.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2942.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
說要去歐洲考察結果發生了什麼事情發生了這一筆錢從哪裡支的我預算書找不到結果呢結果用假的派員出國計畫編預算要派員出國沒有派員出國啊沒有派公務員出國啊錢拿來什麼挪用挪用什麼挪用署長帶廠商出去玩可以這樣幹喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2943.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2956.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
可以這樣幹嗎 沈記長這個我們要查了以後做一個向委員報告好 我順便再跟你講更離譜的事情是什麼陪他出去玩的廠商在他任內拿到的標案金額高達快三千萬不必嫌到這種程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2969.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2999.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我這樣說你聽到沒有知道我是署長啊在我任內這個廠商啊我用限制性招標標案金額拿了三千萬什麼是限制性招標沈記長應該很熟嘛知道要篩選過的啦我認可的啦你才能來投啦給他三千萬的限制性招標挪用公務預算要派員出國的錢署長自己跑去歐洲玩還帶他一起去 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3001.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3019.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
臭不可聞啊沈區長 是承不承諾徹查到底徹查 需要多久一個月內好 一個月內 我等你一個月喔我等你一個月喔那我希望啦不要一個月出來了以後你的報告又被人家當空氣我們都會追蹤好 OK好 謝謝黃國昌委員詢答接下來請李彥秀委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3035.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3039.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝主席我可不可以請主席長沈記長請沈記長沈記長剛剛聽完我們黃主席的質詢你看可見我們大家在野黨也好都對你有很多的期待因為監察院該發揮的功能沒辦法發揮我先做一下我的結論因為今天時間並不長我今天會有附帶的修正的動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3059.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3080.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對於現在全國的審計人員我們現在主計人員總共全國有12,388人從中央到地方但是相對的我們審計單位只有757人我們現在事權很多而且還跟著我們現在符合國際的潮流包括國防的預算 科技的預算AI的問題我覺得審計單位應該要有足夠的人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3084.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3098.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
去處理我們之前我們有增加一個廳還有增加一個處是不是去年110等於一個人我們增加一個廳一個處但是我們變成身兼數職我們人力沒有增加我覺得整個組織架構上是有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3101.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3119.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以我今天的修正動議希望各政黨都可以支持第一個你的人力絕對要擴編第二個就是我覺得那個人力相對的要發揮足夠的功能那我回過頭來講就是說當然憲法明文規定我們的審計權是很重要監察權 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3120.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3137.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以審計權的公正超然很重要這也就是為什麼在疫情期間你們會發現疫苗的問題所以你們的公正超然讓國人對於我們台灣的審計單位事實上是我覺得是可以認同是值得信賴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3138.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3157.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這也就是為什麼我們在立法院行使同意權的時候在野黨無論是民眾黨 國民黨大家都蓋票同意支持你那當然對於審計單位應該保持幾個大的原則包括成績要夠高你不能在行政院底下那個就成績差太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3158.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3178.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
包括保障審計長足夠的任期 獨立性包括你們財務也必須有獨立自決於我們現在的相關的行政體系的規範之外我覺得這些到目前都有看到但是我看到你這一次在組織架構裡面特別提到希望副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3180.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3204.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
要有政務的身份那我就要請問沈記長有政務的身份這個是行政院所派下來的政務的身份你如何不去受到政務機關的影響我不是只有講現在因為大家都有機會可以執政但是一個審計單位他是應該獨立於行政機關之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3205.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3226.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
政務制的副審計長我們就會覺得是行政單位派在這個審計單位底下來去做督軍你如何讓國人認為你有辦法保持審計的獨立性跟客觀性我是從組織架構來跟你討論這個問題審計長你了解我的意思嗎知道一個政務官在你底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3233.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3243.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
行政機關其他單位不管是國防部哪些單位環境部 勞動部在下面督軍你底下有那麼多審計人在下面督軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3245.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3262.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
你如何未來去保證你的客觀性跟獨立性這個是在我們談組織架構我現在不去管人選我不去談未來你們心裡想的人選或者行政院想派誰我不管但是從組織架構來看我個人認為這就是有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3264.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3292.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這是我要談的就是說我認為要增加兩個或三個副審計長我都沒有意見大家有共識就好因為我覺得我們審計單位非常的重要人力擴編我也全力支持但是政務制的副審計長我覺得未來如何保持他的超然客觀性跟獨立性還不至於審計長你在位因為這個組織架構一通過之後它就是永久性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3292.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3309.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以我覺得站在行政院站在立法院的立場我覺得這件事情我必須要跟您說明我個人的看法跟意見那未來如何促進公共效能包括課則制度我覺得都會被一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3311.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3334.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
政務的副審計長抹殺我覺得立法會會有很多不同的聲音跟看法這個是我的意見那另外另外包括我剛剛已經談過了包括調整組織編制預算的增加這些我覺得我們都可以支持那另外我就要談最後一個我是不是可以請人事行政總處的專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3342.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3360.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
謝謝委員實際上您可以先請坐一下專委我一直在跟卓院長提到我們現在全國的公有技工我們最高的新點是170個新點那專業加給之後18610塊之後每個月最多領38000多一點點公有是他的新點是150個新點那領完專業專業加給之後他最多也領三萬三萬五 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3371.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3398.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
一個是三萬 技工是三萬八工友是三萬五我們都非常清楚無論新點是一百五或一百七十個新點我當進來公務機關我當環保局的同仁我當地方工登處的同仁我二十八歲進來我做了五年之後我可能都已經到達這個新點的點數三萬八到三萬五我做到六十五歲我退休我還是領三萬八到三萬五你覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3401.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3416.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
莊惠你個人覺得合理嗎你一進這個職位之後到你退休如果領同樣一個薪水你覺得合理嗎你個人覺得合理嗎所以我的時間已經到了所以我覺得這個新年的制度我覺得有必要要再去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3417.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3439.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我覺得這些公務人員都是國家前進的行政效率的原動力非常非常的重要那我覺得現在已經到達這個薪資的據點應該要包括薪資的結構據點我覺得應該要好好的去做調整所以以上是我今天重點兩個質詢包括在組織架構包括在公有技工的新點我希望你帶回去好好討論好 謝謝李燕秀委員接下來請吳宗憲委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3454.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3455.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
麻煩沈記長請沈記長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3472.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3493.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
好 謝謝沈議長好 那我想說我今天我要來跟你討論一下就是我們覺得審計這要獨立因為當初也是很支持沈議長您就任謝謝然後我想我還是不要那種政務酬庸的這種奴氣在裡面我覺得審計是一個獨立的那我們希望審計要有骨氣不是奴氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3494.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3512.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我想這次修那個草案裡面你們有跟國會要兩個東西一個是基層的查帳兵這個我絕對支持 百分之百支持但是另外一個你們想要政務官的副審計長這部分我就比較質疑因為這個是政務官的副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3515.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3540.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我覺得這是你們要的對不對對但是你理由是寫說因為二級機關像經濟部 交通部他們也都有政務的副手所以你們也要有我想請問一下您認為是這樣嗎因為你們要比照其他二級機關行政院二級機關所以你們也要有你們是這樣子的意思嗎對 因為中央機關組織基準法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3545.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3559.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
副所長有三個其中兩個是政務一個是常務但是我的機關是因為有它的獨立性所以我是只增加一個政務人員兩個還是維持產日這是考慮這樣的一個情況但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3564.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3585.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
你們是審計權你們不是像行政院底下的那些部會因為他們是你們監督的對象然後你們去學他的那個人事制度我覺得這有點不倫不類就好像說你拿著上方跑線的包青天然後你卻要跟那些被你審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3586.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3613.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
被你審查的這些人要平起平坐我覺得這很怪為什麼你會去學被你審查者的那個人事制度所以這是我第一個要提的然後第二個我想要提的我一直覺得審計是一個獨立而且很專業的單位所以你的副手應該是要有挺直腰桿的那種骨氣桿子責那個各部會哪裡做不好他是個查帳的將軍但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3614.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3630.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
如果是政務的副手那我就會擔心很多問題因為我到立法院來我每次質詢的如果今天來的不是長賜是正賜等等的那很多時候我問來問去都是在替執政黨擦脂抹粉那如果今天連一個審計單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3633.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3646.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
都讓政黨的手伸進去我會擔心這會有嚴重的後果所以我希望的是一個有骨氣的副手而不是一個看到權力就跪的那種奴氣的一個副手 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3647.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3664.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以我的目標是這樣但因為常識跟正識本來就不一樣所以這兩個東西在我感覺就是要分得很清楚所以專業是政府最根本最基本要有的我不希望說連政黨的手都可以伸到裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3665.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3684.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好那我們來看一下我這次看到你們決算報告對於整個行政院經濟部還有對於那個能源政策我就看到這到底是專業還是又是護航的荒謬然後講第一個我們這次從能源政策來看而且是你們的報告來看來第一個根本就是在畫大餅說移電共生目標是4.4GW |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3686.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3709.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
實際核准的土地只有一層就等於好像是什麼我蓋100棟房子結果找到地能蓋的只剩下10棟所以完全做不到當初政府給人民的承諾政府說我們綠能可以做多少然後這個漁電共生目標可以達到多少但是根本就做不到第一個變化大病第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3710.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3727.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
假養魚我們看到的是你們的報告61頁寫未落實養殖比例頗高也就是說上面裝太陽能板爽爽的零補助底下根本沒有養什麼魚這你們的報告裡面有寫到第61頁所以假養殖增重電這在騙納稅人的錢騙補助的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3730.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3754.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以審計法17條你們發現有問題你們有沒有移送而且你們也該移送你們有沒有做到這也是我看到你們報告發現的第三個問題進來潮很兇的規避環評我看到很多案場是化整為零他把它切根成小的案場來規避環評然後導致國土破碎然後行政機關睜一隻眼閉一隻眼然後山野光電板 海野光電板到處亂七八糟 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3755.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3783.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個是重大績效的缺失那依據審計法58條你們有沒有實際去查核這也是我質疑的還有第4個台電的部分台電不只整體虧損連台電自己跳下去做的綠能廠台中 金門 永安也都連續3年虧損這裡面資料也有所以政府告訴我們綠能好棒棒但是你們給我的資料是一塌糊塗那你們有做什麼嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3785.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3805.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
陳議長我看到之前台南經發局長陳凱玲還有立揚這些弊案其實這綠能的弊案滿天飛蔡總統臉書也開始在質疑這個點所以如果今天再來一個副審計長結果竟然是政務體系的那他來是幫政黨擦脂抹粉 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3806.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3819.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我就會質疑這個的必要性在哪裡因為我要的是一個查帳的將軍並不是總統派來的一個政策的保姆來護航的那我們看李遠哲之前他曾經報一個料 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3821.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3845.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
因為我們最近那個蔡英文前總統不是說臉書發說希望這綠能的強力速貪嗎那是不是就是承認了蔡總統過去綠能政策其實充滿了很多貪腐的錯誤那周恩院長他曾經爆過料他說他問他跟蔡英文討論這個淨零碳排的困境的時候蔡總統回他2024是下一代的事情那這不就表示這就不關我的事了所以沈院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3847.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3869.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
蔡總統走但是你還在我們還是必須維持這個國家一個穩定一個讓人民幸福的一個政策的走向很多時候立法院鬧哄哄行政院謊話連篇但是數字不會騙人所以那個貴部所提出來的數字很多時候是讓我們能夠知道真相讓行政院可以修改自己政策的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3870.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3898.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以如果今天貴部是執政黨派一個人來做政事來喬很多事情來告訴你們說這個報告不能這樣要美化那請問一下我們國家還剩下什麼這個是我對於副手的部分這個人事的我的質疑我想最後因為時間關係我想我還有提一個修正東映想設下一個最後的防火牆我會處理我想說把資格鎖死在承認或 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3899.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3925.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
現任或承認副審計長者就是要有要有一定的資歷我不是說反對你們多設一個人而是我希望這個人並不是單純是政治概念的政治的一個人而是說他是真的有專業可以帶領大家去審計的這樣對國家才有幫助這個是對國家有幫助不是對任何政黨有幫助我的想法只是這樣我想讓懂審計的人升上來而不是懂政治的政客跳下來幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3927.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3937.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那這個部分我想讓省紀長就可以證明我省紀我驕傲我是省紀人我對國家有貢獻我驕傲我要的是這個我希望來的人是抓老鼠而不是來分蛋糕好 謝謝省紀長謝謝吳委員 謝謝吳宗憲吳委員很寶貴的意見來 接下來請程培宇委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3953.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3959.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好 謝謝主席好 沈記長喝完水了好 有請沈記長辛苦了來 請沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3963.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3990.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
委員好 審計長我們看到你們提出希望這個相關的修法尤其是增加人事的部分那其實剛剛已經有非常多委員都提醒了我想你們的修法的狀況當然就是要因應業務量的膨脹所以我想因為這個部分很多委員都已經垂詢過我就不再多說那原則上我們當然支持可是我當然希望如同剛剛非常多委員的提醒我們希望有專業的人進到這個位置來協助整個國家的審計業務所以我們來看一下我們辦公室整理完發現其實確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3992.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4018.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
從99年開始到現在都沒有增加所以我想你們提出來應該有你們道理跟理由不過我想要努力說服各個委員辦公室這件事情應該是後續您很重要的工作我接下來想要直接跟你討論在審計業務上面我們辦公室發現一個很大的問題來跟你一併討論第一個就是關於行政法人跟行政機關明明是不一樣的可是我們看到審計的量能跟審計的評量成效跟相關指標卻看不出相關的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4019.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4033.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我不知道這個部分你知不知道我的意思我們來看一下我來解釋一下在表演藝術聯盟去年他們辦了一個公開的論壇在論壇上面就有專家學者說這個審計制度上路20年以來觀察到了實務現象他們用兩廳院來舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4036.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4059.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
兩立院在2004年改制為行政法人之後呢他們的監管機關增加了一倍而且這些機關當中啊包含立法委員也認為自己是監管機關都對行政法人沒有充足的認識導致標準不一什麼意思呢什麼叫標準不一一下子叫行政法人要自負盈虧一下又叫他要增加公共利益好來下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4060.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4079.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
通常增加公共利益跟自負盈虧之間必然會有一些落差我們看了你們審計部的決算報告裡面你們在評鑒行政法人的指標上你們把自籌率視為是非常重要的指標而且你們也要求行政法人要逐年提高自籌率 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4080.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4110.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
可是問題是行政法人的特性是什麼我們來看以兩庭院為例他有專業的需求他需要強化成本效益還有經營的效能具有不適合由政府機關推動也不適合交給民間來辦的特質台灣目前的行政法人幾乎都是專業度很高例如說我舉例這個國家太空中心或國家表演藝術中心這些都跟公共利益有關不管是文化科技研究醫療如果我們要所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4111.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4125.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
國家太空中心國家表演藝術中心要提高自籌率我們覺得政府政府覺得他們已經獨立出去了很多立法委員也這樣說那就要自籌利益那難道不用考慮商業發展的規模嗎可是又說他要兼顧公共任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4126.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4146.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我認為這件事情有很大的矛盾確實也因為這樣每一年這些法人再到立法院來報告要承擔這個預算給予的時候常常很多時候會被很多立法委員羞辱可是回過頭來看他們因為說公共任務然後國家要給他們錢可是又說自酬率的部分我覺得這個困境很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4146.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4174.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那國表益中心或者是國家太空中心我列了他們的公共任務沈機長看得很清楚他們的公共任務這麼多尤其是太空中心他還要有台灣自主太空技術能力支持國家長期科技發展強化國安災害監測促進產業發展跟國際合作而這些怎麼可能拿來盈利對不對這個很奇怪國表益更奇怪了提升原創能量多元人才培育地方政府合作促進社會資源藝文平權永續發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4176.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4200.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那我想要問的是審計部可以做的應該是去審計法人有沒有妥善的運用預算執行所謂的公共任務再去認識他們的績效可是我們看到你們的報告來關鍵來了審計部的報告裡面呢你們在這個所謂的審計記卡裡面你們給審計人員參考的指標有提到行政法人的自籌率為達目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4201.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4206.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以我就要問了行政法人他處於一個左也不是右也不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4207.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4232.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
要自籌也不是要營利也不是這個狀態那如果自籌率變成是你們審計部很重要很表面的指標查查的深度我認為不夠也可能會挫制你們的審計量能甚至國人看到這個審計報告的時候也會對這個法人的認識是錯誤的甚至立法委員在做質詢的時候也不對所以我這裡要拜託審計部你們在這個部分有沒有相關在執行修的課程或是審計角度的調整來請審計長回答好委員剛剛講的我都認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4237.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4258.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
太好了我們有共識行政法人該怎麼樣就怎麼樣但是有時候要去注意一個單位起來的時候我們要讓他能夠自己能夠駐控你像我們去看也是行政法人好像中科院的樣子我們去看他的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4259.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4286.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
它裡面一萬多人有一千多人都是二千等 三千等所以像這種或者是它的採購我們一發現通通很多的都是有趣都是違照產地證明或者是進口證明所以這個我們要讓它上到這個軌道但是有的是盡量讓這個住戶上軌道委員的目標就是我們的目標要讓它這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4287.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4307.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
行政法人發揮公共利益剛剛談自酬性的部分因為財政永續對一個法人的存在有相當的所以他要兼顧財政永續的時候因為這些績效指標是他們提出來的如果他提10%我們就用10%來審計他如果他提50%我就用50%審計他我不會鑄創審計指標所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4317.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4328.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
回應剛剛沈記長說的我完全認同一在制度上我們絕對要防弊對吧你剛包含你剛講的一萬多人裡面有一千人多人是三個三星等啦採購的問題啦偽造的問題這個制度裡面該怎麼查查我絕對贊成好這個我也認同二 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4334.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4355.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
自籌的部分你剛剛說財政永續這個角度我也支持可是如同你剛剛說的這些法人他們如何制定指標制定10%還是50%如果看起來就您的專業角度有一些單位可能自己搞不清楚狀況的情況下訂得太高我們可能也要建議他們要做出調整或者是有人訂得太低我們也要跟他們說你們不能這樣亂搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4357.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4380.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以我想後續針對行政法人的這些業務我剛剛舉一些例子你看現在頭影片上也有這麼多行政法人我認為未來我們共同的目標應該是去協助這些行政法人一如何訂定合理的自籌指標二相關在配合國家審計查查制度的時候如何更加完善的協助審計部配合審計部我想以上這樣的結論應該是我們兩個可以有共識的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4381.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4402.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
很好 我們會照委員的主事我們來幫忙這些行政機關因為這些行政法人這些行政法人是荒辛未哀正在起步 現在有十幾個我們現在會幫忙他好 這個部分的指標我們辦公室也會再跟你們討論好不好好 可以 謝謝主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4407.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4414.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
謝謝陳培宇委員 接下來請林德福委員詢答謝謝主席 請陳審計長請審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4438.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4444.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
委員好 沈記長你好其實你任這段時間我還是蠻肯定你的就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4446.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4465.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個公平公正客觀而且要獨立那個我想審計部的官網自己寫到審計權能否發揮應有之功能其超難獨立之特性最重要的條件是最重要的條件此外審計法第十條規定審計人員要依法獨立行使其審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4470.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4497.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
的職權不受干擾那政務官任命受到政治力的影響這個政治高層可能下達政策的指導其恐怕影響整個審計獨立的公正性那我請問審計長對您而言追求審計獨立不受政治操弄您覺得是不是審計部必須要先捍衛他的整個核心價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4498.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4512.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
謝謝委員 這是我們的核心價值我們的核心價值就是獨立 專業 廉政 創新這是我們一直掛在我們牆上的四個核心價值這個我非常認同 那個陳記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4513.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4535.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
因為政府預算總規模逐年成長1.14年總預算編出兩兆九千五兩兆九千兩百五十億為了看緊人民納稅錢揪出政府整個預算違法使用不當的情況本席認為審計基層能力需要對應來增加本席是不反對但是今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4537.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4561.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這個審計部組織法修法想要增設政務官的副審計長來協助審計長來加速於全面拓展數位審計本席認為說如果政務的副審計長獨立性與公平性已經被外界質疑在沒有獲得朝野立委普遍支持前本席認為審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4563.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4585.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
要好好的想一下如果是增加常務的副審計長我們真的是可以討論那如果需要數位專長意見難道不能跨部會合作由數位發展部與審計部共同合作來推動數位審計嗎你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4586.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4588.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
委員的建議很好我們現在都有和數位發展部共同努力我們也有把我們的人員派給他因為我們有一個資安很強的人員我就請他到數位發展部因為有資安是我們就是國安的問題我們有做這樣的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4606.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4618.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那個沈記長因為眾所周知政務官政治任命今天草案希望能夠增加政務的副沈記長立法院法治局也建議政務的副沈記長之提請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4623.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4635.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
任命的方式依法治上為不同設計立法院法治局建議為避免審計長之獨立性遭架空政府審計長不僅需具 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4638.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4641.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我請問沈記長你是否認同立法院法治局的這種建議認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4661.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4667.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為政府我們也希望維持大家都有一些餘力我們希望我們的條件任用諸葛的條件能夠維持我們的獨立還有專業如果能夠把這個問題的大家所餘力的強化對我們損失也是一大助力 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4686.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4713.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以我同意委員的意思其實事務的副審計長本席是認同你要是政務的話上面指派我認為這個事會有所偏差如果今天在政府想像找對象像中選會前主委李靖勇一樣長久以來就是民進黨黨員政治色彩背景濃厚的數位 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4715.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4733.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
為了要擔任政務副審計長才宣布說退黨轉成無黨籍那本席認為這樣的人選並不適合其超難獨立性令人質疑那我請問審計長你覺得修法要如何避免上述這種情況的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4733.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4736.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們委員因為很多的委員都有這種疑慮我們一定政務這一塊我們原則上我們會強化他的專業和獨立如果會影響專業和獨立我同意如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4751.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4765.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
沒辦法達成這個目標我同意就徵受我們還是維持常務但是中央機關組織基準法是兩個政務一個常務但是我們是盡量來配合中央機關組織基準法 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4767.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4785.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我是認為你向媒體報導中油關塘接收站三接外推方案黃波堤興建工程涉及湖報工程預算內容爆料該黃波堤工程原來的預算差不多只有94億在短短期間內 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4787.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4806.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
經歷過4次的加價最終飆到253億過去中油公司的員工這個勾結廠商不時的核銷侵吞公款遭監察院提出糾正案可見中油內控制度以及員工法制的教育均有不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4808.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4824.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
請問陳審計長你是否會專業勾肌整個中油三接的工程究竟到底有沒有福報工程預算你們會不會深入了解因為社會上對這一個昏昏繞繞我們本來是事不後有損記看他的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4825.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4841.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
但是昏昏繞繞的時候這個我已經比檢調還早派人要介入調查因為有財務問題有採購問題所以這個我派了我的審計官帶隊最起碼你要給社會有一個交代說確實你們有在做事好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席長審計長 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4853.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4854.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好來接下來有請審發會委員主席先請審計長審計長有請謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4882.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4910.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
委員好 沈議長好我們今天的議程安排有關於我們的審計部組織法有三個條文的修正是第七條第十條跟第十四條三個條文修正這三個條文大概分成三個部分我們就來討論剛剛前面委員大概大家都非常關心有關於第七條的這個修正就是你們要增設一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4911.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4924.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
增設一位政務這個政務副首長的這個這個案子那這個你們有立法理由你們提出很多啦為什麼你們認為應該要增設簡單講就是你們認為說現在兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4928.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4946.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
副首長是不夠的啦所以應該有第三個啦這是第一個問題啦要不要有第三個副首長第二個問題是那這個增設的這個是要正路還是要長路這個這又是剛剛我這又是大家所關注的另外一個問題但是我比較關注的是是說齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4948.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4967.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
就法字面來講我這今天很大概就是看我們今天所有列席單位的意見那除了主計處主計總署以外我看到這個我們的這個人事行我們的人總跟我們的這個權序部好像都對你們今天三條修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4969.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4989.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
在我看已經是蠻強烈的意見了在過去就是有關相關的這個組織法規的修改的時候也許容或各個其他部會容或有不同的看法但是以這麼強烈的態度來對你們這次的修法提出質疑在我看是罕見 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4991.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5009.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
其實很簡單 你有仔細看人總跟這個全序部的報告嗎有喔謝謝他們提供寶貴的意見今天我們人總是由我們專門委員是不是能夠麻煩你上台一下我們就是把大家的意見對一對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5016.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5028.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
簡單講我們現在目前的修法這次你們審計部所提出來第七條有關於這個這個機關副首長的部分你們的立法那個審計長你們的這個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5030.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5052.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
的理由根據是依照這個中央行政機關組織基準法第19條嘛對不對原來第19條這個二級機關得至副首長一人至三人其中一人應列常務職務其餘應列政務職務但是你們現在是相反你們是只有一個政務兩個常務所以你們跟事實上跟19條第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5054.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5073.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個第二項的規定也不盡相同那更重要的你們引用了第38條你們引用了說本法與行政院以外之中央機關准用之你們認為因為這一條第38條所以你們可以准用第19條第二項對不對我這樣理解是你們的態度對不對那我現在就請問這個任總 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5077.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5091.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我看你們的書面報告其實蠻簡單的只有三頁而已但是你們的意見卻非常的明確你們認為剛剛我們沈記長所講的這樣子的準用方式用第38條來準用第19條第二項你們有什麼樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5094.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5122.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
報告委員那準用的部分就是原則上依照法務部相關的見解就是相關的法規在準用的過程裡面要嘛就一部全部適用要嘛就沒有準用的概念那因為我們裡面也有提到就是說這個準用的部分如果有特殊情況的話它是可以予以續名的那再加上沈記長跟一般的部會他的那個首長任命的情況其實不一樣他是憲法保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5122.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5149.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
的部分所以這個部分如果審計部這邊他認為在相關的政務部的副首長設置上有他的特殊旅遊一樣可以訓明他的特殊情況和以上簡單講我看你們的書面意見你們就是說這個如果你要用第30你要用第38條來准用的話你應該是全部都要准用而不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5151.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5163.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
現在你的講法意思就是說如果你只要挑一條準用那你要續名理由要嘛其實你要嘛就是你們所有的你們的組織法你們就應該要準用就我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5164.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5180.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
就全部來准用這個中央行政機關的組織基準法要不然你現在只挑其中一條要准用你要續名你的理由為什麼你要這樣是不是大概意思是這樣吧那這個簡單講就是你們認為認為這個其實像用第38條准用的其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5193.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5222.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
過去是主要是考試院對不對考試院我們考試因為是行政機關以外的這些部位主要是考試院那考試院這個他的性質跟行政院組織相近那也設有這個部會組織型態的附屬機關所以你們認為說現行考試院跟這個所屬機關都已經準用基準法制定他們已經全面準用這個組織基準法的適用了但是你們監察院卻沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5223.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5234.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
你們這個屬於監察院的我們的審計部卻沒有都沒有准用但你們今天只挑這一條簡單講你們整個中央組織基準法你們現在就挑第19條第二項來准用 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5237.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5261.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這部分是不是請這個沈議長你要不要說明一下你們是其他的這個有關於這個我們整個整個這個這個中央組織基準法八號委員是這樣齁我只有一個我的目標出來說我的預算從11兆到27兆的監督規模我的發展方向是要從監督左向洞察 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5264.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5287.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
不好意思因為我沒有注意到說我們今天給的時間那我簡單講那我知道反正因為你有書面在序名裡留但是你要看其實人總跟權序部對你們這條修法都非常非常的保留我講保留已經很客氣了其實都不同意你們這樣子的引用法律這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5288.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5303.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
第二個有關於這個審計組織法有關於今天的這個組織法的第10條跟第14條的修正這個他們意見更大這個全序部的意見更大全序部我們今天是是這個師長黃師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5310.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5320.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好 委員長 簡單講你們的這個這個第10條跟第14條的修法來很不好意思 占用到一點時間又沒有注意到今天我們的這個發言時間縮短那麼多這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5324.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5349.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
你們第10條 簡單講你們就是增加人先等一下 先審計長 對不對對 希望增加人審計你們從61到91增加到85到115對不對稽查你們從原本的31到61人你們增加到52到79人那另外這個更重要的第10到第14條的時候你們把這個值等做了變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5352.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5364.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那我先不講這個人數的增加的部分就第14條就第14條裡面增列第三項原本第14條是說審計處事之組織另依法律定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5365.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5375.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個是原本的第三項你們把第三項改成第四項就是說除了第三項以外的其他的有法律定制就是這個授權所訂定的法律就是審計處事組織通則對不對原本的法制是這樣就是這個授權它就是審計處事組織通則 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5384.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5412.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
但是審計初次通則裡面第八條第九條原本把你們這裡的這個審計官原本第八條第九條規定是十到十三值等原本這個按照組織通則是這樣子但是因為民國七十六年實施這個公務人員任用法公務人員任用法實施之後前進部是不是這樣子我現在描述的如果有講錯麻煩你指正我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5413.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5434.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這是因為這個七十六年一月公務員任用法施行之後公務員任用法的第六條他就授權了訂定中央機關職務的列等表所以現在其實你們是依照列等表在列職等不是依照審計處組織通知在列職等對不對是不是這樣 沈議長現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5434.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5462.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
目前是因為前夕部有一個列登表我們本來法律規定我是十三指等但是前隔也都十三指等本來法律就是審計處事指示通則用一個行政命令把我列成十二指等我向前夕部要說我法就十三指等你為什麼所有的機關都十三指等為什麼把我列成十二指等他來一個公文你趕快修法所以我就修法所以今天才站在這裡錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5465.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5490.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我跟你講今天的這個爭議有兩個爭議啦有 全系部不同意兩個部分第一個是說認為你們不應該用組織法不應該把這一條在組織法裡面修正你們應該是要去修正審計處處事組織通則你們應該 因為他法已經授權了嘛這一個因為那個已經十三指等了要我怎麼修那我只有問那個前系部長那我是不是修到組織法他說可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5492.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5510.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 沈記長我跟你講所以我在最後我簡單的結論就是這樣就是說你今天這個修法其實沒有得到人種跟權序部這些相關相關的這些機關你們沒有得到他們的共識大家沒有這個共識所以你們在沒有共識的情況下你們就提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5511.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5526.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
全新部有他的理由我剛講兩個部分第一個是形式上面你們不應該用組織法來修這個值等這個是他們第一個意見第二個意見實質內容你們要把它全部通通提升為十三值等他們也有意見因為你們這個違反了你們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5529.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5540.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我的華 我的通則是十三十等所有的機關都十三十等所以你的通則 他們的意思啦我都 人啊 都是一條邊的 他們派來的啊我知道 沈縣長 他們的意見他們的意見就是認為你們應該這個組織通則應該要去修改應該要去修改對不對 全區部是不是這個意見就是說他們不應該用組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5553.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5577.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是我有打電話給他的部長 他的部長說可以因為我的通走已經十三組等了 你要叫我怎麼修不好意思 我沾到你的時間你打電話給他的部長 他部長所說的跟他們今天寫在書面白紙黑字寫的意見是不一樣的啦我審計部今天會壓到這麼低啊他們多數前夕部的多數派來的人事主任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5578.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5604.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
因為我最後講結論因為各機關職稱機關等的這個配置標準的這個配置準則裡面他的第九條第九條第一項第五款裡面他有針對一二級機關主管機關的檢認非主管職跟這個二二級單位主管的原額配置的比例他有規定應該是70%而已而你們現在修法之前你們就已經到達80% |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5607.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5625.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
84的修法之後會到達150%這個人數他是怎麼算出來我不知道我所有的簡訊啦現在占比只有百分之十二我要去查國家的法照我要查少主化我要查氣候變遷這個要五到七等能查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5626.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5640.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那個沈縣長我跟你講我個人我個人並沒有說在這裡質疑你的修法你都一直幫我 等一下如果我的人事主任是你前事務你對前事務很不爽是意思是這樣子都是他派來的人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5642.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5661.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
派來 我要修這個法的時候我要告訴人質主任一定要在法輪裡面來修今天修來了他還寫這麼多意見我有怎麼辦法這就是我今天答詢的主旨就是說怎麼會在修法裡面全序部跟人總寫這麼大的意見在修法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5662.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5682.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
法規十三族等他用一個行政命令把我押到所有族等我還很客氣的說是不是大家都十三族等給我 阿你笑話等一下如果我們真的能夠進入族條的話我們再來好好討論我相信這個議題應該等一下很多委員都在旁邊那個摩拳擦掌來 謝謝沈發惠委員 謝謝沈記長來 沈記長喝一口水休息一下賴委員喝一口 好不好接下來有請賴世保委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5693.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5693.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
來 由請沈記長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5708.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5711.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
謝謝主席 以及各位先進 沈記長你今天的重點就是要一位政務官的副沈記長就是這樣嘛 最重要的是這個嘛 還有其他呢都要啦 其他有什麼有三條 有三條 我實在今天 我也很想 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5730.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5734.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我這樣喔 那個都危困欸 我打得很緊張欸我也很想看你這樣在北新台這麼生氣因為啊 長年啦 鬱悶啦鬱悶 鬱族啦鬱族被全市部欺負啦 對不對人要不到 組長要不到被人種欺負啦 就是這樣這個單位其實可以幫國家做一點事的單位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5757.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5767.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
幫國家做事就一定要給一個人來啦 一條一條講你可以基層增加 審計人員職等提高這我沒意見我最有意見是請你的副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5771.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5789.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
你要把他政治任命 這個我很有意見這個就是道地的量身定做聽說你的人都找好了沒有啦都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 都找好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5794.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5815.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
很多的事情都要栽培上次你問我為什麼那個你問我說你怎麼細潤怎麼會那個我說我差不多半年前就相關的人員講說我要結甲歸田那結甲是沒有 都是說解掉這個植物我要回到去種田 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5817.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5843.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
但是最後啊 我要培育我的人產我們也給你擠一擠啊 但是來 我問你 我問你 我問你重點在這裡齁 增加一個如果 如果啦 if啦 愛if啦齁同意你呢 但是我們要改成這是常務官 實質職等不可以中務官 你看我是什麼官我是這樣啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5845.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5865.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
政務是剛剛大家都笑我叫機關基準法機關基準法兩個政務一個常務所以我說就一個政務吧兩個常務這是我的特性專業獨立但是增加一個政務官大家有所懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5866.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5879.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
當然懷疑啊這個東西就是民進黨的手伸進來啦他們已經有人要這個位置啊所以如果可以的話可以的話強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5881.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5905.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那個互損機長的專業 獨立為什麼要政府官啊 你沒有回答我問題啊為什麼要政府官 常務官你也可以啊常務官你可以啊 為什麼要政府官 修就是對的啊大家有的人都 剛剛我就是這樣講啊大家都有的要叫我叫這樣 有的要叫我那樣我的組織通知有13組等 他就要要我12組等用行政命令壓勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5906.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5910.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
你現在 劇統要講問你這個問題 你不要回答其他的啦請問你的副省機場幾值等14值等14值等啊我們就加一個14值等的常務文官給你我是這樣啦你效果達到了獨立專業沒辦法解決 我同意你的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5926.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5942.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對嘛 因為如果那個證物我能夠把它任用諸葛的條件加到能夠專業獨立盡量大家所有的部位都有證物啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5942.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5948.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
要怎麼樣去獨立嘛你只要政治任命就不會有獨立啦這個東西 執政黨三個人進國進來所以你心目中是什麼條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5961.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5976.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
加上他承認什麼承認什麼 你講嘛 承認什麼承認副審計長五年 或者審計官八年 九年 我都同意所以你心目中 心目中人選已經有了嘛要做這個 要那個 這個那個都有了那個人就在燈火燃山處在那 他們在那對不對 就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5987.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6015.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
負責任的 做一個人啦要負責任 你要替國家栽培人才啊你說啊 這個我都不會你看我已經七老八十了 還要在這裡做還在這裡生氣還今天這麼生氣 喔我還想看到你這麼生氣看到 我來這裡講大家都電話通好了來這裡寫成這樣要人沒人 要主等沒主等所以你今天來這裡很壯的我要替國家做一點事也不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6017.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6023.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你簡單來講啦 你對全序部長很不爽你對人事長很不爽但是還是不爽他有他的主責啦 他盡量他電話給你說OK來這裡書面資料就不OK啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6036.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6055.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我感覺他對我還蠻友善的因為大家都說他不友善我後來回頭一看好像不友善齊一族我感覺他是友善的他電話跟你很友善啦這個人情手牽手背後下毒手啦他的宿命之鬥是把你抬得這樣對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6060.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6064.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
主席他為了國家的體系你還是沒有回答問題假如我們審查會說好你講了很多理由通通買單但是常任不可以證物 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6077.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6098.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
最後的底線啦最後底線啦齁我跟你說 這樣才有通啦你用政務的不通啦因為這個政府你可以看喔我們的外交體系也可以很多的應該是文官都變成政務官啊 民啊 法啊都變政務官這個東西都變政治任命不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6100.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6123.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
就獨立性就不好啦這個就這樣啦 這個我都同意啦有時候你才看不夠 剛剛那個吳委員在這裡喔 本來在講那檢察官一千多人 通通可以升到十四組等所以你今天火氣很大咧很大 因為這個沒公平的事情 我一向都很大所以今天他很不爽表面上 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6125.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6129.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
實際上很重就對了 來來來最後一個問題 小問題 來來來我先問你喔1.5兆的特別預算 裁員他稅基剩餘加舉債如果現在沒有稅基剩餘的 幾乎都舉債每一個人5.43億喔 那麼現在政府一直說 裁判法通過要舉債2000億你現在還舉債1兆2000億你要不要講一下 財政紀律講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6154.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6167.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
現在啊這幾年控制的很好都差不多五兆多啦你寫出來都五兆多在整個都壓在六五兆五兆九千多萬所以這幾年的財政是現在增加一定要五兆喔稅收還不錯經濟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6169.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6177.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
科技方面稅收還不錯所以1.25兆我知道行政院他是分8年8年除1.25乘以8年的話差不多1.1500多億但是這個行政院的條例還有這個1.25兆的這些的編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6189.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6207.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我這次預算編註前是在行政院損益權在立法院我們尊重 我們都損益我們一定照立法院損益的結果來損益好啦 你們要看這個財政機率啦要注意這個 好 謝謝好 謝謝賴市保委員好 謝謝陳機長 辛苦了餒好 你先喘一下你喘一下 你喘一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6217.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6226.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
但是沈記長剛說他沒有不爽啦表面上好接下來有請宗嘉斌委員好那有請等一下來宗嘉斌委員來 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6237.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6253.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
主席 在場委員 先進列席總監事長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先讓沈記長喘口氣我們請權敘部的王司長和任總的廖專門委員權敘部法規司司長還有任總的專委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6256.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6281.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好 来请教一下我看全旭部 市长我看你们的意见第一你们对于政治政务副省级长你们是尊重吗那你们对于所谓的这个检任官二级单位主管的原额设置你们好像觉得比例上不符合我们相关的规定 是不是相关是70% 目前会变成150% |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6283.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6301.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好 但是我看你们提到14条的部分你们认为这个所谓的相较于地方直辖市的一级机关首长那么中央的三级机关首长以他上述横平所以列12到13之等你们觉得OK吗是 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6302.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6318.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那所以你们看起来的意见只有一个地方是认为说不应该定在我们上级机关的组织法应该定在下级机关的组织规程嘛是那沈议长都清楚了嘛所以应该不会有那么大的一个情绪啦是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6319.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6340.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
你們認為這樣我們來確認一下因為我看到我們今天很難得我們看到考試院跟這個監察院的機關之間的意見不同但是我看也還好來我現在問問任總來任總專委請教一下我看你們的意見對於政治政務副審計長也沒有也尊重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6341.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6358.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
是委員那你們認為我們行政院有一個韓式對不對106年1月24號那認為監察院考證與行政組織相似也定有組織法所以呢你們認為呢可以參照這個基準法規的規定是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6360.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6385.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
報告委員原則上是審計部這邊的修法他有說要參考基準法規範因為我們這邊是說如果是用準用的規範的話是要全部適用但是如果有特殊例外的話可以續名他的理由特殊例外您特別提到中華民國憲法第104條審計長有總統提名這個跟其他的行政院的一級機關二級行政機關的時候很不同對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6386.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6400.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以在行政院二級機關首長他底下所轄的這些三級機關跟省紀長他作為很特殊的跟行政院二級機關所在不同的地方你認為可以特殊考量嗎看起來是這樣吧是 就看省紀部他的好 謝謝好 那我們請省紀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6402.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6407.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
兩位先回 沈記長這樣聽得清楚嗎 他們都沒反對沒反對 剛才提名起來他們都沒反對你說他們說你們這個沈記長是由總統提名由立法院同意來任命的比起行政院的二級機關的首長來講這個還不一樣 你還特別所以你底下的這些下級機關怎麼設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6425.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6449.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
是應該可以有另外的考量好 那我現在開始問本題了首先我們看第一頁來 還是從事我每次問審計長都要把審計部門講一遍你的職長呢是事後權 是監督預算的執行審核財務的收支還有要怎麼樣要去稽查不法跟不忠於職務的行為要考核效能 要核定責任對不對對所以這三個是你的重要責任你常常提醒 所以我練之再之 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6450.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6468.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
是 你应该比我熟了我们看往下看来你们这组执法第7条第10条第14条第1条第7条是讲说是副省进场二至三人目前我们的规定是一至三人其中一人得列为常务你们现在两人都是常务所以可以征涉一个证物的对 OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6469.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6486.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那再來你們提到這個審計法第10條你們的審計官現在問題來了審計官你們希望擴增審計的人力那還有審計官要兼任地方的審計處長好 顯然的你要擴充人力你要讓你的審計官可以去地方擔任處長是這樣意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6488.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6517.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他本來就是損機關就是監地方處就監任但是我們看到其他機關的意見是說你幹嘛用監任你用專任的啊專任的夠不夠這是我損系的特性因為我的損系是要出去查賬要出去查賬好 那我請教一下他的特性好 來 沈議長你聽過三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮有沒有聽過有人常聽 常聽那如果是三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮那如果對上兩個諸葛亮你覺得哪邊比較贏 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6518.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6539.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個沒算過沒有算過 好 那你認為你跟副審計長誰是諸葛亮 誰是臭皮匠都扮演了相互的角色我是意思說如果是審計長是諸葛亮你有兩個副審計長現在你希望有多一個副審計長有三個臭皮匠就可以勝過你這個諸葛亮你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6540.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6567.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
應該同意他們都比我有經驗老到好 但是呢如果說你把你兩個副省議長都變成跟你一樣的是諸葛亮你還需要第三個臭皮匠嗎這是這樣啦 大家這是數學問題啦因為委員在其實啊 我就這個增加一個委員在財政委員會希望我加強監督地方我想出的方法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6567.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6577.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以這個不是三個臭皮匠也不是兩個諸葛亮的問題是因為有特殊業務的關係你第三個副審計長是要證物是要列為什麼數位審計對不對所以因為職長不同專長不同所以你希望就像說不能只靠兩個諸葛亮你還有什麼要照雲要有關羽有不同的專業負責是不是這樣的意思對好所以呢既不是諸葛亮也不是臭皮匠你要增加副審計長有照雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6595.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6621.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個趙子鵬有關雲廠的來協助好不好OK好往下看來那你擴增審計人力因為你認為政府收支上升業務複雜化還有跨域跟前瞻的審計所以根據目前我們要很嚴格好像請教一下如果你地方的審計長說哎呀不用增加那麼多人不用增加10個人審計長你不用幫我增加10個人你只要增加5個人薪水通通給我我就幫你把事情幹好你覺得有可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6622.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6641.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
因為不可能 因為現在整個損盡市平均才13個 14個損盡人力基本人力都不足所以是人力不夠 不是能力不夠對不對基本人力都不足 會造成惡性行為我確定一下 你認為是人力不夠不是能力不夠 也不是薪水不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6642.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6657.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好 那我問一下假如今天有立法委員說立法院組織法給我8到14個助理要花掉50萬一個月那你不用給我那麼多助理你50萬給我我就可以把事情搞定你覺得這樣符合你剛剛講的是人力的問題還是能力的問題還是薪水的問題你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6662.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6688.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
助理在立法案已經形成非常重要的一環是和立法案息息相關幫助立法委員幫助國家處理很多事情所以助理的東西我們還是要善待所以呢你認為是應該維持助理8到14名的編制這樣的人力而不是說把他的錢交給立委統籌運用就可以達到同樣的立法效能是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6689.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6692.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
要做一個訴求要順順所利不能說處理了這個事情造成發生了另外一個問題所以我們這樣的話反而會這個對整個功能或怎麼樣要去考慮評評非常重要那又有委員的修法要把這個改成補助兩個字補助補助在我們審議當中它的會計屬性是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6716.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6730.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
補助就是說這個是多少給予補助要不要審計要不要做平均核銷 簡均核銷任何國家的財動 國家的資源我們都審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6734.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6753.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
來 我要看主計處 主計總處黃專門委員是不是所有政府的補助款這個科目下的補助款都要列入檢據核銷是不是是是 好 可以 謝謝來 我們看一下 來 陳議長你看一下目前的修法是說通通這些50萬一個月的助理費用交給立委統籌運用免檢據核銷這個符合我們主計跟審計相關的規定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6758.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6777.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
免檢劇核銷但是他的錢到哪裡我們還是會注意我們在實際的立場還會注意你說法律規定免檢劇核銷你們還可以查到他的用處你們這麼厲害那既然這麼厲害通通不用檢劇核銷你們用心電感應就知道這個錢有沒有花去了是不是這樣嗎因為有免檢劇核銷有這樣的話我們會尊重立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6782.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6801.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
立法院如果寫免檢拒核銷你們也尊重但是你們要用心電感應去了解委員有沒有自肥是不是因為我會用數位審計你會用數位審計所以你要告訴陳一正委員如果委員要自肥你就算法律訂了免檢拒核銷我審計長還是有辦法用透過我的數位查到你的錢流到哪裡去是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6802.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6819.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個免檢劇核銷可能要慎重最後的結論對於未來如果立法有提到補助款用免於檢劇核銷的幽靈補助如何進行有效審計你說你很厲害你有數位審計三個月內給我提出一個報告告訴我你怎麼做好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6820.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6847.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
可以嗎因為還沒有成為事實我們都不用成為事實啊我只要本院有可能立一個法補助款免減去核銷就已經寫在新聞上面了你要趕快提早因應啊能夠雙贏好 雙贏 那你提早因應萬一過了 你三個月也到了報告就寫出來了我們就可以告訴立法院說立法院委員陳玉珍你不用先放心你做得到嗎 三個月提出一個報告能夠讓他放心 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6847.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6854.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好啦 那我就問嘛你有效審計監督你做得到嗎三個月提個報告給我們好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員接下來請羅志強委員詢答有請審計長請陳審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6875.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6889.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
委員好沈議長我先很快的說我的結論你們的三項訴求那有關於說要增至實際執行查核的審計人力本席在這邊表達支持謝謝那針對所謂的要這個審計部審計官兼處長職務列檢認12至13職等本席也是支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6899.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6914.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那這兩個支持的基礎說真的就是我覺得過去對審計部的表現本席是肯定的謝謝所以我覺得有實際作用來端正關針來去查核政府預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6915.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6935.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
有做到這個功能的話基本上審計部要把值等調多調高要把這個員額增加我覺得是個有功能的單位基本上本席都支持那當然本席對於所謂的要不要這個副審計長是不是要增加這個我也沒太大意見但是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6936.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6943.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
列政務任用這個部分我個人是有點疑慮在後面我再跟您說但是我要前面先來講講審計部為什麼我覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6946.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6965.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我會支持審計部不管是員額增加還有職等調整除了你們列的那個立法理由之外那我覺得幾件事情我想要請教一下那個審計長超司機彈案審計部的估算過期彈號以及冷凍倉儲還有銷毀費用是9,130萬對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6972.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6980.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這你們有報告然後加上雞蛋的原採購平均成本是7.6元整體損失費用是高達5億2997萬餘元 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6986.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7009.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
这个当时审计部我觉得有帮我们政府帮人民来监督超市鸡蛋这一点我是要肯定的谢谢可是你知道结果被控独职图利等罪的农业部的前后部长畜牧师的前后任司长畜产会的前董事长最后也都是不起诉 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7010.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7027.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那我都覺得說這個是一個問題啦就當然不能怪審計部啦我覺得很可惜審計部前端查到政府這樣的一個所謂的浪費乃至於對於法令的所謂的一些甚至有一些違反的問題可是後端好像審計部盡好職務 堅守崗位 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7031.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7045.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
後端的我們所有的一些該要究責的程序跟機關也沒有跟上那平白的我就舉例那請問這些錢消耗的是誰的錢人民的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7046.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7075.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
另外我也看到省纪部也揪出劳动部5年以来滥用就业安定基金7224万包括许明春开演唱会谢怡龙办公室装潢都被省纪部认定是难以验核履约结果林日公及导演团队所拍的影片最后这些叫不服用途关联性不高省纪部也都做了很多的监督但是我想请问 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7077.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7082.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
審計部我也還是一樣覺得很可惜即便審計部抓到這些東西請問最後這些錢還是誰出這個財政部那個勞動部還在逐項查明可能就有輸入他當然我已經通知他像現在法院在判也會默入所得你要去申請還回那個就業安定期是我們也在我們也是 誰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7103.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7123.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個是末日所得本來繳入國庫但是這是安置基金的錢安置基金是來自比較像一些輸能的人繳的那些這個要回到公益裡面去對 好 我覺得非常好起碼還因為審計部前面有做前端 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7124.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7144.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
不然後面這些可能都沒有嘛所以這是為什麼我跟人特別講就是說基本上我對於審計部過去的一些表現我覺得相對的是肯定的但是我們的後段的政府單位我真的是覺得好像是前面努力把關後面努力放人 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7145.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7166.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那之前你也看到那電鍋案嘛對不對電鍋案也是32元的電鍋被判刑可是超市雞蛋5億好像不用人負責一樣那更糟糕的是什麼南門中計市場案審計長你應該知道這個案子嘛這個案子實際上是我最早最早質詢也最早開記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7169.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7193.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那當時赤字1.8億用不到四年終極市場明明可以作為東門終極市場使用結果當時就是蘇發布說要蓋辦公室他不讓台北市政府繼續租就把這1.8億的這個終極市場拆掉了拆掉以後請問沈機長知道發生什麼事嗎您知道吧 對不對蘇發布跟大家講沒有 我不蓋了 辦公室我不蓋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7195.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7214.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我就問沈記長是不是赤裸裸浪費那1.8億公帑做公務員我是希望站在國家整體立場來看任何事情就可以見氣情見對啊 那我就講說光這件事情就看到說但我還是謝謝審計部審計部對速發部的所謂的一直在搞速發部變辦公室發展部的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7221.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7246.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
就也說過速發部解決辦公空間不足要外租大樓又限定在台北市中正區然後租下火車站前的星光大樓到去年底總共18個月的租金就要將近7000萬而速發部說明裝修費用是3400萬所以要花1.4億實際上省紀部也認為台北新北早就生活圈嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7247.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7269.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
你沒有一定要陷在台北市中正區那我也不知道為什麼今天說真的還是一句話我也肯定省進部把問題點出來零零種種包括說我最近踢爆中油三接工程的福報的弊案福報金額牽涉到150億之多這些其實也都是人民的納稅錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7272.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7285.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
點點滴滴我是要勉勵我們審計部一定要做好把關最後我就要講但是呢今天我看到政務人員你不要怪這個本席看到這四個字心裡就會開了有點忐忑 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7289.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7316.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
其實民進黨執政這些年我先從監察院你省進部所屬的上級機關講起你光是監察委員政治辦案比比皆是然後再加上對於所謂民進黨高層像陳忠彥涉及新招待關說這些微私證據監察院也不敢彈劾陳忠彥中選會本來獨立機關表現是如何大家去看看完全沒有獨立機關的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7318.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7345.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
NCC初轉會現在還有很多的各部會獨立機關都沒被放過那現在問題來了沈記長你們這一次我是很相信你但是你們這次要把這副沈記長做政務任用我還是要請沈記長再多想想怎麼去平息社會各界疑慮這一點的話其實有些委員有提出非常多的疑慮但我知道翁翔宇委員有提一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7347.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7367.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
有點像是折衷版就是說基本上針對這個所謂的偵測的副審計長針對副審計長資格要做很多的一些更多的一些明定有所謂的常務官文官審計官的這些經驗那怎麼樣再做後續的進一步的修法不要讓這種所謂的政治酬庸的這張這個文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7369.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7379.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
也進到審計部審計部好不容易我覺得到目前為止表現我是肯定的不要讓政治仇恨文化進到審計部好 謝謝我們如果政務副審計長我們的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7382.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7403.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
盡量能夠強化他的專業監督還有獨立有困難的話我們剛剛也像那些委員講如果大家還是有疑慮我們盡量強化如果有疑慮有委員也希望說那就改常務但是我是希望能夠強化這個地方來解決這個問題因為這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7405.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7414.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
中央機關基準法裡面最基本的有一些政務人員大概我做這樣的一個向委員報告謝謝委員 謝謝我們的審計長的開放態度 謝謝謝謝羅志強委員接下來請王一川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7435.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7439.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好 謝謝主席 請審計長請審計長委員好 謝謝委員那個審計部在公務體系裡頭是不是很過人的啊當然啊 你齋章發福他會說大家很開心的 不可能的所以我這裡 我遇到這樣 我在找優良案例好 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7458.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7462.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
第二個是你有看過你們各處的處長去到議會備詢的狀況嗎有你覺得這樣的場景適合嗎都因為這是主軸所在要甘之足矣 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7475.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7493.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
因為你們報告寫下來嘛 就是寫一寫 然後到應該都年底啦年底就會進議會嘛那就是不同政黨的人 有些拿來攻擊嘛那有些拿來請這個處長 解說說這句話是什麼意思嘛對嘛 我來齁 一定要叫他們橫評報導 後悔愛笑 敗也愛笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7501.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7509.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那你們做審計就是各縣市政府自己定的標準你們以那個標準去審計對 因為我們不會注定標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7513.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7527.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那我請問一下你們報告出來之前你們當然這個寫報告過程中會請各縣市政府提供相關的資料嗎會請他提供相關資料以後還會請他看看這樣是不是客觀公正那也會請相關的人員來到處裡頭一般我們會去抽查的時候就會和他們開會議那最後這個報告出來之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7544.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7561.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
還有讓這些單位的同仁啦比如說各縣市政府局處的人員再有一次辯駁的機會嗎有 我們這個是很基本就審計很基本的因為我們客觀公正那他辯駁完的內容會再放進去報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7562.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7580.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
客觀他講的有道理有沒有道理是誰決定因為我們現在查一個都要損記發現還有要有客觀數據他沒辦法反駁我的客觀數據他如果反駁了你覺得沒道理你們會不會把他的說明放進去有都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7585.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7591.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
他會怎麼樣要看有的是說會這個明顯的沒有道理為什麼這樣問是因為會有這個狀況就是說這個事情已經都跟審計處講過了那審計處我們就去說過了審計處就硬要這樣寫到最後到了議會去議會議員會質詢你們的處長就會回答回答完之後媒體就會來問這個局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7614.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7619.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
欸 局長 啊 審計 你那審計處會這樣寫啊 你有什麼意見啊 我就把審計處說不是這樣啊 他就要寫啊那不可以 有沒有遇到這種事 有 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7626.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7649.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那怎麼辦 我已經在 我已經啊 我提面命說人家有道理的事情啊 你一定要客觀公正好 我是建議這樣啦就是說相關的 因為你們的審計是按照各單位他們自己定的標準去審計 對吧他標準定很低也是他家的事 對好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7651.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7673.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我是建議這樣就是說你們在這個因為你們那個報告都有粗體字粗體字裡頭會有價值判斷我叫他們盡量不要下各種的意見那就是這些用字我是覺得相關的用字標準化譬如說未達標 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7674.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7680.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
未達標的沒達標嘛對 有人說這最賣的這樣人就很生氣了我知道 剛才就是說那些用字因為我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7685.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7689.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
你們的審計報告到了年底是各縣市議員非常重要的參考文件對 怕連那個可以連很久除了你們的處長去報告那一場以外後面就是一直連 一直連有些地方的媒體就寫五六篇寫得很簡單因為你們裡頭寫了蠻多價值判斷在裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7707.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7718.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
用了一些成語 情緒性的字眼那這個可能慢慢再改啦 已經改很多啦這個可能要調整一下因為你們是比較有客觀的標準在談這件事因為我只會被定位為說你們在批評某一個縣市長的施政有時候會落到這樣我們是要用善意把關要從善 共助善助 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7734.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7739.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第二個就是我們今天討論比較多的這個證物證用你還可以講一下為什麼要證物證用你們的副手 副作為什麼要有一個是證物證用你不可以說我們本人都有 我也要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7748.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7773.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
就是審計單位的特性 為什麼要政務任用就是說這件事情 再講一下你不要再告訴我 因為別人有我也要有這最主要 我常務大部分都遵照一般在執行遵照我們的政策方向在執行政務會協助破壞一些 審計的方向 審計的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7775.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7782.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
常務的就沒辦法也是辦法啦 但是就剛才你說的這個國家的體制你就叫我不要講那個我就講他可是我是說為什麼要政務啦 不懂啊就是這樣 政務有政務的功能嘛常務有常務的功能等一下 你的任期會不會跨越總統的任期看起來不會喔看起來不會喔不一定啦 這個因為還要閒啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7800.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7803.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
還要嫌我不知道我說在設計上設計上會跨越嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7806.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7831.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
一定跨 我是小英第一陣子蔡總統提名我跨越了蔡總統 到了賴總統對 所以就是你設計上你有可能會跨越不同的總統會跨越不同的那個但是我們都是不管是哪一個總統我們都是秉持我們審計獨立的精神該替國家把關那你覺得這個總統會對審計長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7835.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7860.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
就是說我國家政策要這樣走 所以沈記長要跟著走嗎 會呢兩任的總統都沒有給我交代金的事情那如果不會的話 那你的這個副沈記長 或者這個副座啊副座為什麼要跟政務任命有關呢剛剛講嘛 我一個人會將人財進不是啦 你就用常務的就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7861.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7869.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
常務的喔 常務的就比較執行都聽我的 我就要自己拚正務的就沒有要聽你的嘛 對不對沒有啦 他可以陪我到處啦常務的也可以 所以你這事情你還是沒解決啦這個說法上啦我是說你要跟社會解釋正務跟常務在這件事情上的差別第二個我最後問一個問題啦今天你的報告 今天兩個單位來喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7889.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7902.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
都企劃調價 你說什麼都沒有啊 都沒有啊你聽我講 你聽我講你聽我講 你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我講你聽我 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7910.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7912.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
你剛剛有講說 你有跟那個部長聯絡嘛我請問一下你們這個案子要送出來你們三個單位有開過火嗎三個單位沒有啦 因為我是順治獨立 我要送監察員監察員一定 心境一定會擾人所以制度上你們 要支持 祝福 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7937.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7944.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
制度上你們三個不可以一起開會你們三個單位會一起開會嗎不會因為我審計有審計的獨立在我那個世界最高審計機關來講要審計獨立不能受到行政的牽制 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7958.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7972.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不是啦 開尾啦這邊簽署得很厲害啊我說開尾啦 不一定簽字啦所以這個會不會開了對不對你們三個補會有啦 都有去問啦都有去問說這樣可以嗎大家都說可以啊來到這裡都說不行搞不好說種植品挑我挑我問問的都可以啦剛才那太虛弊太虛弊好啦 萬一你說製度上你要做這個開尾做一個會議紀錄有困難對不對沒有啦 因為這製度上OK 好 了解 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7990.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8005.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
好 謝謝王逸川委員沈記長在回覆的時候也都很直白這也很好立場讓大家知道接下來我們有請專業的翁曉琳委員謝謝莊召委那麼我首先先請沈記長請沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8025.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8037.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
今天主要是要討論有關於審計部組織法修正的事情我想就是在大家最為關切的也就是有關於審計部未來打算要增設政務副審計長現在主要是常務的副審計長未來要增加的是政務的副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8046.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8057.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那當然大家對於增加政務副審計長最concern的就是怕會不會以後政務副審計長又變成政治酬庸那當然這個審計長這邊有保證說還是會以專業考量來提名這個政務的副審計長不過我在想說就法條的設計上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8066.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8084.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為現在對於這個審計長的任用資格在審計部組織法裡面第二條裡面其實就列出很多項規定那本席這邊是也會接下來我會提出一個修正動議就是針對副審計長的資格也要明併甚至可能就是要準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8085.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8114.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
在审计部组织法第二条提名审计长的时候的前两项的专业规定也就是说要曾经担任过副审计长或者是具备有审计官9年以上资格的人才可以担任政务副审计长这个部分的话不知道审计长您的看法如何如果说我们要强化有关于政务副审计长的资格的话是不是可以从这方面来着手 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8114.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8115.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
謝謝委員的為我們強化我們政府副審計長的專業獨立來幫忙想方法非常謝謝我們可以從這方面來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8131.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8151.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
是 因为我想这样的做法可能可以减少就是外界对于未来政务副审计长可能又落入政治酬庸他本身不是在方面专业却又来担任这个政务副审计长的一律这是本席的看法我基本上是支持就是审计部是可以设置政务副审计长 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8151.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8167.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那只是當然現在還有一些問題包含就是說這個政務副審計長未來需不需要經國立法院同意任命因為畢竟審計長您是經國立法院同意任命的那政務副審計長他的資格以及他未來他所要承擔的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8169.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8196.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
當審計長如果說有缺席的時候他必須要來擔任首長職位所以看起來對於政務副審計長的資格的還有同意權的行使似乎也是可以在一起討論是不是要做更嚴謹的考量我想這個部分的話等到我們之後進入到主條審議的時候我們再來談不曉得副審計長您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8197.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8220.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
因為我已經經過立法院的大家的同意非常謝謝大家的認同 支持一個現在要送進立法院的負政務的或者是要立法院審議的大部分都合意住 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8221.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8235.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
包括所有的考試委員監察委員 大法官或者中央委員會的委員這些都合意住我總統 那個憲法裡面我看起來我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8236.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8238.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
唯一的嘛是首長制的所以如果我是在那種因為這些都有任期剛剛那個用同意錢的都有任期所以應該不太是用同意錢的形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8254.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8273.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
不過這個部分我們之後再來討論了那當然您剛剛講到就是說現在很多的這個獨立機關他們合一制的獨立機關這個相關的成員都有經過立法院同意任命所以這裡面有個議題就是說其實過去也有人在提出說是不是審計部未來應該從首長制改成合一制機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8274.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8291.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
您有认同这样子的一个看法吗因为您刚刚也讲说您当过这个审计长可是有时候还是需要比较多不同的意见后来帮您发想一些这样议题这个我不世界各国都有有所长制像美国是所长制像日本是合议制每一个都不一样但是因为牵涉的范围牵涉因为我 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8304.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8308.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
在憲法裡面的對這個還是要憲法裡面的一些規定所以要這是要從長計議什麼是對國家最好因為這不關公共的這是關於國家整個什麼是最好的所以我就說提出來這個想法就是沈記長那看起來你如果說是這個設計良善的話也不反對了沈記長我可以接受主要對國家好對人民好我都福國利民的事情我通通不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8333.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8348.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
接下來還有一個問題就是說因為這次您提出來的法案看起來人事行政總署跟權序部對於就是要調升值等的意見他們是有意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8348.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8374.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
也就是说认为说现在这次审计部提出来的要调增什么兼任八到九职等的职务然后以及其中可以列减任的有多少人等等他们认为说是与行政院及考试院各机关的职务配置原则就是各机关职称机关等职等员额配置原则是有不同的那么您这方面怎么解释呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8375.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8404.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
向委员报告我做所长一个方向对说我要做什么一个方向我就交代我的人事质问说你要我唯一给他的说通通要符合目前相关的法治但是看起来现在跟这个整个原额配置原则是不同所以这个部分的话是不是有可能再跟人事行政总统或全序部里面去谈一下是不是你们调真的原额过多 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8406.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8418.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個部分我給委員一些概念我檢認的只有占比百分之十幾大宴的預算中心占比百分之六十五 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8419.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8436.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我的監察院的調查次占比百分之三十幾我如果再調升照這個調升才百分之二十委員你出聲華麗嘛我知道 就是沈機長我跟你說如果是這樣的話我建議您要把相關的數據都 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8438.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8467.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
做清楚你们审计部跟其他单位的比较那这样的话大家比较能够支持你们要调生还有一个部分就是有关于这个事前审计功能不彰的部分本身也要提出来其实是依照现在审计法的规定这个审计部的功能不是只是在事后审计包含在事前或是在整个的预算执行当中你们都可以去派员去做进行相关的审计业务可是看起来你们在事前审计的部分你们有 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8468.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8483.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個功能沒有發揮我那時候來第一任的時候來立法院講那個六十監督強化洞察 邁向前瞻邁向前瞻就是事前要疫情在危難還沒有發生之前告訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8484.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8490.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那個行政機關你可能會面臨什麼風險但是事實上我們還是看到還是有很多後來這個重大的弊案產生但是這個系統性風險我用數位審計現在會看到怎麼都會違照出口證明違照進口證明和那個延長文件那一抓 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8508.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8524.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
幾百件幾百件所以這個都是把系統性的風險找好既然你們有這事前審計的功能你們可以發揮這樣的功能然後有這樣的職權其實應該要在這個整個預算的執行當中你們就要 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8524.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8547.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我们尽量来但是我已不干涉行政部门的行政不要说是发生了一些弊端之后才来做事后审计那当然你们事后审计其实也抓出了不少的弊案那你们这些弊案都有送监察院去只要效能不当或者未进组组我们也会送监察院是不是可以请审计部这里的之后给本席一份资料就是你们送监察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8548.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8568.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
调查的最后的处理结果是什么会不会就是你审计部你抓出了一些案子可是送到监察院监察院可能第一个他可能不受理第二个可能他最后处理的这个状况一个认为是没有问题要不然就是处理之后这个处罚是很轻程监察案我们送去他会纠正 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8569.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8589.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
会弹劾我希望就是麻烦审计部可不可以提供给我近十年来就是你们审计部移送给监察院的处理的状况好吧做一个列表好谢谢哪些案子送到监察院然后他做的这个报告好最后我有一个最后一个小问题这114年的总预算 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8591.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8612.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這個行政院提向這個憲法法院提起申請釋憲那大法官也受理了但是我們知道現在14年總預算案已經執行到尾聲所以如果說現在憲法法院的判決認為當時我們立法院通過的預算可能程序上有瑕疵等等認為有違憲退回到立法院審查那麼請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8614.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8630.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個已經執行出去的預算之後因為立法院可能重新再審議然後法定預算有浮動的時候審計部這裡會怎麼處理這樣預算的編制權在行政院審議權在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8631.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8655.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
現在目前包括醫術也通過了追加也通過了大概大肆抵定我們會照如果縣政方面他大概會考慮整個國家不要動盪所以大概我們下來以後我們會照立法院通過的預算所以你的建議是說建議大法官其實對於14年的總預算案那也不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8658.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8681.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
再去这个鸡婆啦再去审理受理因为毕竟我们的总预算案都已经执行了嘛然后追加预算也都已经通过了如果说再变动的话它其实会影响很大对不对对这个大法官的专业我觉得这个议题也是很有趣的一个法律上宪法上面的议题如果说大法官还真的针对114年的总预算案做出了违宪的判决 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8682.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8692.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那麼事後要怎麼樣的去審計我們這個都有方法那可以請審計部請審計長也把你們的現在的這個就是預估可能處理的一些狀況然後提份書面報告給我好嗎不好意思謝謝翁小玲委員那接下來請今天全場最閃亮的賴慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8718.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8740.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
謝謝主席 請沈記長是 沈記長 我第一次來跟你做對答不知道你就是這麼本土的一個答法非常有趣我不知道 因為我就是這樣答 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8743.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8746.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我想今天針對我們省紀部的一個修法第14條把省紀官兼處長我們定位在檢任12到13職等這個理由非常簡單就是我們要反映他這個職責上的一個重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8764.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8786.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那事實上就是說我們在審計處的這個組織通則裡頭我們明面有非常清楚就是一等審計處那設置處長一人那由審計官兼任那職位列在第十到十三職等那我們今天看到的修法那事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8788.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8804.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我有一個很直接的疑問就是說為什麼不直接把審計官監處長定在那個檢認十三指等還有一個就是說為什麼要直接修母法為什麼不要在通則上做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8805.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8810.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
通則 修通則它諸事體大我們要前面因為它涉及我地方做的那個我的通則已經 其實10到13 12到13 13最後都到13所以通則已經講好了我剛剛非常的那個我也是像前戲部說我通則13你列等表為什麼把我列12希望他改一下他說你去修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8831.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8839.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我說祖祖阿修可以不可以他說可以啊我就照這樣啊那就稱之王逸川委員講的就是說你們三個都倒霉吧結果來到這裡講的時候又不行了對啊所以就就是被壓抑很久的那個就會滿腹的氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8849.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8867.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
是 所以就是變成就是矛盾非常多對啊 所以就要來這個就有時候像這種事情前戲部的事情法律就規定十三組等你就同意我就好了 事情就解決了還要我來麻煩各位委員有時候也是不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8868.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8883.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
不好意思不好意思但是為了我損失同仁的一些所以你的合理性跟必要性被挑戰因為所有的人都是三值等所有的人 只有我十二值等那只有我被壓抑 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8885.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8899.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個我也不知道前夕部我覺得基本上就是說支持以前那個我損棄部的那個主任大部分都是前夕部派來的這十幾年被壓了十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8903.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8931.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
所以就是說在野檔也擔心你的酬庸然後我們執政黨的委員其實我們擔心的不是酬庸的問題我不會超過法律要求我的因為我在審計人家我也覺得這個問題不存在那確實是有它的一個需要性謝謝可是你現在問題來了你這個財化法修法了以後你地方的審計人員是不是夠用這個你講到這個這是我的痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8932.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8947.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我一個審計處數只有34個人分成三個科一個科兩個到三個我要去要人要人沒人啊要那個不給啊那怎麼辦我現在只有用聯合審計啊這個單位聯合去啊用這樣的方法主要 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8954.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8972.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因流停或者他那個人有一點狀況有時候就停擺所以我一直要基本人力我基本人力如果能要到最少我就可以處理一些事情剛剛講的那個才華法下去我們也要讓他的效能能夠發揮那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8976.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8982.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
沈記者 你的基本人力是多少達到你的基本人力我希望一個審計室一個審計室 20人我就夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8986.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9010.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
可是你平均啊全台灣平均就是14個人幾乎都是不夠啊財化法你的財源增加了你的審計量也會增加了你看這個財化法從去年12月修法立法院在11月14號三讀修正了以後行政院在11月20號又提出新的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9010.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9032.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個新舊版本現在這個是有一番爭吵可是很真實的就是說你地方的審計的人力是不是夠用因為地方政府錢變多了那你查得完嗎那如果查不完的話我們都知道就是說審計部是在國治就是我們國家治理的最後一道防線那怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9034.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9061.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們現在已經有沒有想到一個變通的方式我現在是要準但是我剛剛向委員報告要準沒有來以前我做聯合審計這兩個單位或者我準備開始做聯合審計你的聯合審計是要跟哪些單位聯合要看像嘉義市嘉義縣它就可以聯合台北縣如果要查淡水的整治 污染我台北市和 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9062.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9067.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
新北市就聯合所以你現在已經在準備了不準備不行因為我們的損棄對國家我有一個就是說能夠協助政府來擅助能夠把這個國家做起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9081.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9104.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
可是你看 你這個配套已經出來了那大家更不會給你人力那沒辦法 因為你要坐等坐等人家給我 我事情就沒辦法做所以我也要為成功找方法為成功找方法所以顯然你已經找到方法那這個面向也好像是正確的對 我正在努力 在訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9105.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9116.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 我想就是說這個攸關審計的制度是不是能真正的發揮功能那當然我們也是祝福那也是潛力的一個支持審計部謝謝 謝謝戴委員 謝謝謝謝 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9122.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9136.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好 謝謝賴會員 委員沈記長 我就盡量跟你講啦你如果有機會講這麼多話 乾脆背背 盡量講沒關係來 接下來請王宏威委員宣導好 謝謝主席 我請我們沈記長請沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9151.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9177.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
委員好好 沈議長好就是這一次要偵涉我們的政務副審計長當然因為過去大家都覺得我們的審計部針對行政院各項決算基本上都有做到獨立的公正性每一次審計部的報告也受到包含立法院的委員還有外界的一個重視大家比較擔心的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9179.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9205.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這個政務副審計長他會變成一個酬庸性政治性的任命不過因為我現在我剛才也幫忙連署就是我們翁曉琳委員有特別提到就是加注就是我們政務副審計長他仍然給予他一個他必須具有一定專業的資格那因為就是有關於翁曉琳委員所提供的那個版本您個人也同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9206.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9217.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
對 因為大家每個委員都對我的有政務委員以後對我們審計獨立性會產生阻擾那產生阻擾對信任就產生增加不必要的困擾強化政務副審計長的我們都接受的資格只要強化他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9229.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9232.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
獨立還有專業性能夠確保他不是空降或者是酬庸或者來當監軍的所以基本上就是翁曉琳委員那個修正動議因為我剛才也連署基本上我們對於偵涉政務副審計長我們就會給予支持只要我們可以秉除我們剛才所說的疑慮另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9254.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9272.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
有一個很重要的議題要就教於沈記長就是我們現在不管是明年度的總預算或者行政院送到立法院來的1.25兆的有關於國防的特別預算受到高度的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9274.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9281.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
但是事實上就是我們有關於軍事支出的特別預算這也不是第一次我們來看這個部分是其實大家討論的非常多的就是以我們從109年開始實施的新式戰機採購的特別預算的說出執行情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9296.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9303.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們可以看到在今年的9月30號為止我們已經實現的預算數已經高達84.2%已經實現的預算數84.2%但是它的問題就是到目前為止預算數執行率高達84% |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9320.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9336.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
但是一架戰機都看不到就是F16V照理說它今年就已經開始陸陸續續交建到明年底應該全數交建完畢這個是一直外界大家很關切的所以像這樣的狀況就是我想在我們審計部去做這個決算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9345.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9362.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
檢查的時候 審查的時候一定會對像類似這樣的預算執行你執行就是錢出去貨不來錢出去貨不來你們一定會提出相關的特別提醒或糾正我們再來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9365.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9388.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
就是我們在這一次1.25兆裡面的國防預算也就是所謂強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫的特別預算其中有一個非常重要的項目就是有關於無人載具及反制系統就是無人機 可能無人艇 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9389.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9413.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
可是問題是在我們公務預算國防部的公務預算裡面其實過去從很多年度113年度114年度通通都有無人機的採購計畫在公務預算裡面就有但是它的問題所呈現的你可以看到我框出來的以今年度來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9414.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9440.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
無人機反制防禦系統的預算執行情況支用率極低不是極低而已是極極極低我為什麼在講呢有的只有1%都不到很多1%不到就代表根本沒有執行根本沒有執行也就是雖然編列了大筆的預算在無人機的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9441.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9442.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
可是它執行率極低以114年度也只有遙控無人機防禦系統 致用率達到10%這已經是最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9453.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9473.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
10%是最高 其他的我剛才講非常非常低所以這樣的狀況不是我們今天錢已經花出去但是戰機根本不到或者無人機我們編列大筆預算過去公務預算已經編列大筆預算但是他沒有辦法執行為什麼沒有辦法執行就是他都驗都不過了都沒有辦法通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9477.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9496.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以他就不敢致用那致用率這麼低然後現在還要去編列1.25兆所以這就是我們今天要針對這些預算今天不是一個單純的說你一定要支持你不支持你就是不支持台灣的國防 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9498.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9517.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這樣的一個簡化的我覺得這並不是我們去審查預算或者監督預算的一個基本態度我再來看後面過去在我們很多都是討論說我們的特別預算編列太多特別預算有特別預算真的很特別嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9518.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9538.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
可是你現在看喔光是國防特別預算從蔡英文政府到賴清德政府到目前為止我們光是國防特別預算已經這個已編列前面是已經被通過的後面1.25兆是現在送進來已經高達1.8兆已經高達1.8兆之多所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9547.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9575.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
沈機長 我要問你的事情是當我們現在不管是公務預算也好或特別預算也好當國防預算這麼這麼的龐大的時候是不是應該去有一個專門的監督機制甚至監督機構因為過去對於特別預算很多的財政學者說什麼叫特別預算呢特別預算就是特別好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9576.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9604.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
什麼特別好呢 特別好過像這個預算 你敢看立刻說你是不支持國防立刻說你是中共同路人還有一個特別好用這個特別預算一邊好幾千億過去我們前瞻也看到有多少浪費而造成了文子館然後根本沒有效益的事情它讓行政單位非常好用另外一個特別好混 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9605.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9624.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
很好混 而且因為他這好幾年好幾年你還看不到能不能執行他的預算已經匡列在那裡所以我們針對特別預算如此腐爛如此對行政單位如此好用如此好混而我們國防預算如此之高所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9625.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9647.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
沈記長就您的一個特別的專業來講我們現在面對不管是公務預算國防金 明年的國防預算就佔了總預算的三分之一然後又有1.25兆的國防特別預算在那裡我們是不是應該先研議一個就是應該成立一個專門的機構監督的機構或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9651.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9665.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
或者是我們要有一個特別的監督機制不然的話我們悶著頭通過這麼多的預算就會形成我剛才所講的預算執行的率很高但是看不到東西來 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9666.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9682.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
因為現在持續率很高 錢花了很多 看不到東西不然就是錢變得很多 但是我花不出去錢變很多 但是對不起 我就是花不出去因為我想可能有些你明明是已經不合格的或者檢驗沒有辦法通過的 我也不敢採購啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9686.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9702.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
沈記長您覺得我在講就是針對國防預算應該有一個專門監督機制或者一個專門監督機構或一個專門監督小組您個人的看法怎樣好 謝謝委員如果委員相信我我們會回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9703.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9721.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
成立這個那個那個查核小組國防預算國防預算小組你就不用再那個我如果相信我選基部所以你選基部有這個能力我有這個能力有這個能力因為我知道你們有很多專案調查第二個剛剛講F16那個我們那個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9726.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9750.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
為什麼80%戰機還沒來 它是經過都在美國做已經它在住工程像我們蓋一個樓房蓋到幾層我們的會計上就可以賺帳所以那是賺帳的 但是還沒有蓋好沒有賺帳的我們剃掉它讓它沒出現 它沒有蓋的我們剃掉它三四百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9751.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9765.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
還有他送了太多錢去美國我們說你要停下來他慢了這個我們得扣掉他的錢國防部也照我們的意思你扣了多少錢370幾億 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9768.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9783.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以就是你說因為那個貨都沒有進來所以你不要再匯錢了因為進度慢了但是他有在做最近聽到的消息大概明年或者久會就會有戰機進來的所以明年才進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9785.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9804.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
但是國防部都不確定明年可以全數到貨油因為這個國際變化多端所以第一個 省計長你的意思說你們省計部已經有針對F16V的這個新式戰機的採購你們已經有專案小組在做有在做追蹤 對在做審查 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9806.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9833.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那未來我剛剛講的不管我們公務預算或特別預算金額這麼龐大你們也會成立專案小組來針對國防預算來這樣子每一個案子來做監督比如說你無人機採購這麼多你就要去監督他如果這個大案給他通過順利通過我們會來負責做方面的審計再來我給委員一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9834.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9848.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
如果特別預算有一個好處他都把這些事情集在一起他如果散在總預算大家不一定錢冒看不出來所以特別預算有他特別預算的優點 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9849.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9866.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
所以這個給委員做這樣的一個補充因為大家對特別預算我覺得你在這邊已經有點在幫他們講話特別預算特別預算特別好用對於行政單位當然但是特別預算的腐爛事實上會對財政造成極大的負擔特別預算的裁員是哪來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9873.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9877.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
大部分都舉債了都是舉債嗎 對所以當我們那麼高的特別預算那就代表我們要舉債這麼多對不對國家的財政慢慢都在好轉我們是希望像每年都能夠超收來補充這些或者是今年沒有超收我都有在追今天很奇怪經濟成長率15年來的新高但是竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9898.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9922.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
沒有超收預算他把稅數加大了這是另外一個問題經濟成長並沒有在稅收裡面完全的顯現謝謝謝謝王鴻威委員那我們先做會議的程序的宣告稍後在吳委員私謠詢答完畢以後我們休息5分鐘我們接下來請你口罩怎麼打開口罩很漂亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9925.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9941.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
等一下黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不來就請吳思瑤委員謝謝召委請沈記長請沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9944.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9966.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
辛苦了 沈記長沈記權之所以存在就是要監督預算的執行就是要審查政府財務的支出就是要來積查財務有沒有不法沈記權的存在也拿來用於考核財務的效能當然就是要看守我們的財政紀律 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9967.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9988.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
所以我手上的這一本就是第二冊第一大冊是分重要的施政議題我手上的這一冊就是依各公務機關你們去作為單位來提出的審核意見我這邊整理出來的是各個部門當然各部會跟地方政府是你們去查查預算執行的大宗佔96%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9991.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10018.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
但其他院計之間也是有啦只是我覺得我一直很好奇喔立法院的預算執行沒有值得特別來好好審查一下審計一下的嗎過去歷屆你們每年的這一本喔對於立法院的審核意見其實都非常少耶一面都不到耶一面都不到耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10019.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10026.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
有特別對立法院特別給予什麼樣子的方便還是說立法院的執行都是沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10028.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10052.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝委員考慮到這個問題非常謝謝第一個我們損盡因為要損盡剛剛講要二十七十一個人要損盡六百多億我支持人力增加但是我是說全部立法院在我們的評估它是十幾億它大概也沒有大公司三十六億三十六億我比較清楚有三十六億這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10054.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10082.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我们的审计像这一种我们都用电脑在跑就RPA晚上的时候它就在跑有问题我们会通知我们是抓风险性还有它的规模性所以 审计长我懂你的意思你的意思是说你当年会照过有非常清楚的步伐你一定查有执行有清楚的问题你一定会查核但是我并不认为依预算规模来决定你审计的力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10083.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10109.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
絕對不應當是這樣對立法院我們來看看我提幾個我看到的我從國會助理到現在自己擔任立委在立法院時間真的加起來前前後後已經20年以上了我常常覺得很奇怪立法院常在換電視我不曉得昭緯辦公室有沒有這個去年新的戒旗換一次今年4月又換一個電視 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10111.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10122.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後來換的時候我還非常訝異的跟我們總務處的同仁說有沒有壞掉有沒有壞掉用得很心啊然後就來敲敲打打又換電視 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10124.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10147.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
有沒有過於腐爛啊去年換 今年又換我不曉得為什麼這有沒有執行面的過於浪費呢而我也覺得常常在換電話當然我助理說電話換得沒有電視的頻率高可是呢 汰換話機呢一次都是2900台 3000台喔一次都是7000萬起跳的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10148.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10176.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那相較於我們立法院在審查其他機關的院計的預算譬如說監察院監察院去年被砍到97% 98%業務費都沒有了他們連買衛生紙都綁手綁腳立法院花錢是大手大腳所以我提點給您不必然有什麼不法只是說有沒有過於浪費或腐爛好 再下一頁我也赫然發現立法院的中心大樓電梯常常壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10177.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10206.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
然後呢 該修 確實該修因為這是辦公的需求 更是安全的需求可是呢 我赫然 真的是赫然發現居然立法院去年修電梯是拗行政院買單耶是去請行政院用他的二倍金來支付立法院中心大樓兩千四百 兩千三百五十萬的預算立法院沒有預算嗎為什麼是要行政院買單呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10207.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10236.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這都很怪啊所以我用這個案例告訴您對於立法院的預算的執行也是要叫企鋼 叫補來該審計 該審核我們都要做好嗎好 我們只要會照委員的意思我們就會查該查就查也不是吳思耀叫你查你才查是本來當於你們的職責就要來進行相關的審計下一頁剛剛我們中嘉賓幹事長也提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10237.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10265.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
現在有立委提案連公費助理的人數上下限要刪除而且立委可以統籌運用免減拒核銷這個助理費助理費一夕就成了立委個人的小金庫一年自費可以高達780萬剛剛您回答我們嘉賓幹事長你說現在很厲害我們用這個叫做數位審計你一定查得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10266.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10292.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我非常好奇耶免檢據核銷你怎麼查得到你是立委肚子裡的蛔蟲你是潛伏在立委辦公室裡的小帳房嗎我們不要講你怎麼查就從制度面來講如果制度一開始歪了你後面審計人再怎麼辛苦去查核那其他都賣戶期啦賣戶期啦啦所以就這個制度面這個修法要注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10292.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10293.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
要注意是不是要好好的嚴肅的不可為就不要強而為之啊這要注意因為這個影響因為這些助理啊已經是整個立法院很重要的一環不要去影響到他們剝奪了他們的工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10309.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10336.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
这个是很重要我同意所以我建议修正您的说法您绝对不可能有这种滔天本领好我同意这个恶法如果修了下去免减拒核销你用什么数位审计都没有办法AI再强也不可能去查到这些立委的小金库怎么滥用怎么滥花所以说审计权就是要严格去审核下一页我非常支持下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10337.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10359.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你的三個條文我都支持可以正向討論至於你們跟權序部跟人總之間適用條文適用的法律這個可能需要再大家再參詳一下好但是增加你們的副審計長也好或者是你們的這個職等要提高或是人數的提升我都支持我認為都可以正向的討論下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10361.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10385.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
因為預算連年增加 這個你們都講了從15年來 人數還是336人沒頂沒當但是總預算卻增加了63%基於你剛剛講預算規模當然你可能需要更多的專業人力下一頁而且我支持你未來的專業人力更需求性更大是因為才化法的大災難來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10387.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10414.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
分配不正義 事權沒有統一財政沒了紀律 配套又沒有提出之下 下一頁地方財政紀律就很可能大舉的惡化也就是蚊子館越蓋越多加碼非法訂設服的補助會越來越腐爛或者是各項不經濟的支出可能也會越來的越惡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10415.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10432.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
因為這個修法本身是權跟錢權沒有統一未來你們審計的人力真的要有滔天本領這個部分你們有什麼因應剛剛有像這個非常謝謝委員這個錢下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10432.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10446.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
一定說我要加零食人員 我要加營養午餐我要哪個都做地方租住我們雖然但是這個財政就會慢慢輸口 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10447.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10451.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
財政的豬園使用效率就會變所以我剛剛提出我要一些審計人員如果審計人員行政單位 行政院沒給我準備用聯合審計我支持你們提升人力但是剛剛前一位質詢的王宏威委員認為在國防預算你們可能要組小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10471.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10489.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
來嚴格審計國防特別預算的之用我反而認為畢竟國防預算連第一關排案都被擋住了什麼時候通過也未定之天但是被強行表決通過的裁劃法已經造成地方可見的財政紀律的惡化你們倒是應當針對這個地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10493.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10508.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
沒有計劃 錢一堆錢下來了 市權沒有整合 沒有統一這種腐爛的經濟不支出的滋用才是你們目前要鎖定所有的專業的審計人才集中對於地方政府新上路的財化法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10509.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10533.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
你們該做的我們會照委員的意思因為我們在查113年的時候發現我們提出了1777項的審計意見以後可能超過3000項都有可能因為以之前的預算是4165億的增加我們是希望設計一套可以可行可久的制度不會造成財政基地的歐化但是如果沒辦法的話我們自己審計出手 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10534.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10547.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好啦 審計當自救啦已經看到的地方財政的惡化跟不經濟的支出你們就要未雨綢繆 好不好讓審計局發揮正向的功能好 謝謝好 謝謝我們最美麗的吳思耀委員這樣就休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10567.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10589.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
請問請問請問請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10597.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10601.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11111.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11124.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好 我們繼續開會那我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間我們繼續進行到討論事項法案審查現在請王一川委員來代理一下好不好好 我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11142.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11153.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
好 謝謝主席有請我們陳瑞民省記長還有我們權敘部王市長還有任總 任總有來專委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11159.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11187.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
沈議長 我看今天去答詢其實是很懇切但是我看很多人都誤會了我們審計部的功能都想說你們是算小的其實你們實在不是算小的你們算在監督的啦 最主要是說監察權 那就罷休啦那我看你們今天在審計部組織法裡面的修法裡面這個倒也不是一個程序的問題是國家財政監督可不可以真正有效的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11188.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11208.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我想首先要肯定審計部願意追上時代提出智慧的審計還有永續的審計還有韌性的審計這些方向很好這個部分完全支持但是從整個組織架構大調整立法院當然還是要幫人民把關我看今天各 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11209.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11222.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
都有提出它的一個修正案那這個確保這整個修法裡面不是被誤解也不是被誤用你看這個第七條裡面你說最多三位副審計長這個就是說政務 你們也會說政務副首長那我首先講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11232.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11258.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
全序部你們會有意見仁總這裡面有意見你的意思就是說二級機關內的副首長通常都是定額我要請教今天因為聽審計長講了那麼多全序部師長這邊我倒還沒有聽到你們真正的看法王師長你們對審計部今天提出來的這個正副副審計長你們真正的疑慮到底是什麼你們就說好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11259.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11278.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
沒有 那個政務副審計長這一塊情緒部沒有意見因為這個是他們去准用中央行政機關組織基準法那中央行政機關組織基準法是人總這邊負責的他們主管這個法案所以就政務副所長這一塊我們沒有意見你們沒有意見對 尊重那個我來 這樣我聽人總家 你的意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11285.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11304.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個部分原則上我們就是基準法適用的部分目前就是依照19條還有38條的設計但是原則上因為省紀長他確實在憲法上104條的部分是由總統提名後立法院同意跟一般的行政機關的二級機關有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11305.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11330.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以如果說這個部分在那個基準法使用上要做一個排除的話可以訓明理由看看它的特殊性質是什麼然後來予以做一個調整這樣 以上所以你的意見是什麼 說白話說白話就是沒有原則上就尊重那個審計部規劃跟立法院決議這樣意見就變一致了但是審計上我必須要問的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11331.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11341.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
你現在就是說 你說最多三人 當然寫得很彈性很彈性的就是說 你到底你有到底要做什麼事你業務上的曲折 其他的考量 這個倒沒有講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11343.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11367.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我成立了我從那個85年到現在那個預算監督規模從11兆跑到了27兆那我的功能從監督要走向洞察走向前瞻這個整個就是說我的功能是要加大的是說要剛剛講的就是要預警 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11368.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11383.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
很好 你說功能這個我贊同但是你這一位的政務副審計長功能你把它定位在哪裡他是對於協助幫忙做政策規劃 審計方向的規劃這一方面來做這個確實是講這個倒是通但是早上我看你聽那麼多委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11393.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11398.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
的詢問裡面大家在問的就說不知道有多少人要排隊啊手要穿進去啊不知道要放什麼人啊沒有這個問題啦這個我自己決定的因為我去到那裡這個我都自己決定的沒有 大家那些都誤會啦那個政府要用這個我是看那個四官組組法就兩個一個現在要成立嘛就一個政府可以來做幫忙 整個幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11421.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11429.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
OK 全序部今天其實他講的報告裡面也講得很清楚就是說你這個非主管的比率高達150%跟其他同級狀況機關差距很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11446.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11468.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以我剛才審計部 全序部剛才在這裡說你們 我要請教你們當初設計質等到原額的時候到底有沒有忽略了什麼你說會不會引發社會對是不是藉由修法來擴張這樣一個編制 大家這樣想嘛全序部我看他可能就是站在這樣的一個立場對 他有他的主軸是 那全序部 我也不用問你 你的報告很清楚你說你也要回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11470.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11478.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
因為我心結 心結緣緣是要獨立行使之前你若不是叫做審計官 審計機察 審計員你不可以處理查詢所以我所有的一級主管 都是心結內奸他才可以處理查詢所以你看起來很多人的技術 畢竟機關都結了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11498.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11504.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以我今天才會說心情不太好那就是大家都為我而來我都叫他們要做事情要查公園地 我也抱歉叫我查總園合法 我也不敢不查他叫我做財劃法的評估 我也不敢不評估他叫我做霸凌的 我也是查 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11525.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11533.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這是對國家有好事 這是給他的功能不要在那裡監督 吃飯的 餐盒的費用 什麼的怕給他比較大的 所以你要做這個你沒有比較高的錢 都用那些我身家的錢 5%到7%的 佔40%多 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11552.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11554.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那可憐 你要把阿姨拉到時節啊 時節 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11559.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11568.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這事實就是惡性循環你如果說因為那間單位20幾個他也死了兩三個大家說我也要來死他死了都哭了 都來我這裡要來死了我沒有來這裡給大家吐一點口水對不起我的動員好啦 你說得這麼乾脆對啦 就要說得這麼乾脆我要問你的就是其實你剛講到那個前瞻的問題所謂就是說超前你看這個很顯然不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11588.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11609.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個後面的整個採劃法會怎麼樣的一個演變但是從明年開始或者說往後開始可以預期的就是地方財政一定大幅增加他說錢一定越來越多如果這塊來講地方在那裡那些人在開錢但是地方的審計處裡面人手又不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11614.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11639.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以你這次修法增加了人力你到底有沒有包含整個財劃法你通過以後的風險的一個係數如果說地方未來那個財源增加30%那你地方的審計處查核能力跟不上還是中央錢賣掉變成地方的爛帳那中央又要來背鍋這個對整個不管什麼人進行這個都是一個國家很嚴肅的問題你最後這個問題解釋清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11642.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11644.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
委員會的協議一經建設這我優先衝衝 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11646.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11653.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我憂心忡忡 所以我今天因為我今天投的這是我的組織中央的我地方是有九人 我的法定是在我的法定下線還有兩百萬的所以我去投三十人的就是因為國務院也要問我這個我沒去投 有投有投就最少我有去投有去投 對委員有交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11672.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11695.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
有方法我就來做沒有方法我用其他的辦法要成功一個事情一定還有其他的方法但是人是最基本的這是跟委員做這個報告我也是憂心忡忡修法是給你們更大的權力也是資源但是責任其實也更重譬如說我為地方我為台北市議員起來我非常清楚你們地方審計處長的一個職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11700.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11706.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
其實啦 實在是要讓他們加公衛不是只有加薪而已啊不然我一直看那個國局署 六都國局署那些都很無關的那一天起床 你的處長小朋友而已 你就直接坐在那裡 公衛在那裡跟人家有差談不啊你說你這一次其實你把地方的審計處長職等把它拉到檢認12到13我講一句實在的 這個我完全同意啦你自己坐在別的國局 也可以跟他說 來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11728.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11731.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
今天各政黨有很多的一個版本 大家再來協商看看可是給了權力 給了資源 不要忘記 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11752.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11759.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
責任更加重大 好不好好 我們會來努力這個郭委員在財委會我領教過他要給我很多的都不是財務方面的都是國家住住方面的糾結案件 質跟量那一定要同步 要提升一個強大的審計部是一個國家財政健康的基石這個其實都是在為整個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11781.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11798.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
為了整個下一代建立一個更透明更負責的台灣啦好 謝謝 謝謝我們都連行政優良案例都用出來請嘉義官派人去輔導那個趙復原我這就到家服務啊我也用作行政優良案例啊好 嘉義官好 謝謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11811.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11813.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
接下來請郭國文委員詢答謝謝主席 有請沈記長請沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11828.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11834.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
沈議長 我想聽你討論你的心聲可以理解所有的基站的營養40幾%都五到七十等那真的做得很厲害你也要做的東西很多除了原來的審計的賦予的組織功能之外你還加了洞察跟前瞻老實講你的洞察跟前瞻已經漸漸發揮你的賦予的角色跟功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11855.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11869.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
但是呢 現實上來說還是要面臨人力的問題嘛你人力的問題呢你剛剛講說這是你的意思增加一個政務的副審計長不會有一個人找來幫你自己找一個人來幫你監軍吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11871.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11885.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
不會嘛 不可能的事嘛以前你這重大的部會通常都有三位副首長嘛 不是嗎有審計單位是多重要的我算給你聽 你看你的監督的單位中央所屬的部分有358個機關合計1804個預算單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11890.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11893.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
你地方是1742個機關合計是5814個預算單位我全部來算起來你的審計人力講起來只有一個結論嚴重不足 你看嘛一個人監督12.5個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11909.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11926.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
一個人要省計634億的預算規模之大 可想心中有多苦但是現實來說 沈院長你這樣是 你的增加人額要增加到42個你看一看可以到471個 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11930.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11955.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
你即便你的編制緣額增加問題你的預算緣額你有增加嗎要看人家要付好不好對 人總來 人總來 張遠 莊惟今天修法修了老半天組織編制緣額增加看起來很好看但現實上還是要預算緣額增加你有沒有辦法增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11958.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11976.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
報告委員因為我們從歷年就是從100年開始其實針對省計部的緣額我們有歷年去就是核給講白一點這樣回答莊惠雄委員一樣講到背就好了重點講一下從100年到現在其實已經有合成65個多65個那今天如果是組織編制員在增加你會不會再多給啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11981.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12007.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
是 這個未來就看審計部的業務量還有業務量肯定會增加的對 就是它的業務量跟它的數位審計你相不相信審計長他說原來的功能之外還要加一個洞察還有前瞻是 我們原則上就會是它的業務量能跟它的數位審計推動的相關的一個情況包含運用相關AI技術他剛剛屢屢提起本席要求他做動作席他沒有充滿怨言 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12008.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12030.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
他甘之如也 就是他想要認識嘛要勇於認識 你應該認識多給他一點嘛好 我們再看看他做了什麼事情你請回 來來來 那個沈議長謝謝來看看你的人 我剛剛有幫你講很多話對 謝謝 非常感謝你看事呢 但是呢 我還是會要求啦像我最近要求你那個有關於財務法法的專報你們寫得不錯 你們勇敢點出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12035.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12064.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
整個藍白的財化法的法案當中呢出現了一個第一個分配公式對人口較多商業發展都會較有利而對財政財力相對弱勢的農業線相對不公平城鄉差距啊這個恐難說 恐難縮減啊也簡單的講城鄉差距會越來越大第二個呢 市權會並同這個考量的情況底下恐怕行政效率會越來越低資源會越來越重複會形成浪費以前不足 會以後變浪費啊你用你嘴巴講 重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12066.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12067.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這部法案是不是有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12070.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12099.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
在行政院來看第一個他目前的法案如果行政院要去操作會超過公債法的上限還有這個農業還是不均衡因為整個國家每一個單位每一個縣市我們都要照顧能夠讓大家都能夠均衡發展均衡那個是很重要的一件事情就不會形成像現在薪資大家有的高有的低就形成問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12101.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12119.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
如果我們的財政有的高有的低也是一個問題所以這一步剛剛通過的財政收支方法很有問題會惡化城鄉差距會導致行政效能不彰行政效能不彰資源浪費的話也會導致省企部門的業務增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12120.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12129.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
是不是會形成惡性循環對不對這個當然是我們的審計壓力會大一點對啊 你審計壓力一定會越來越大啊所以你一定要講出來啊你寫出這個是重要的啊對 我們給委員的報告裡面有寫出來嘛 你有 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12137.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12161.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
你有放膽的寫出來嘛那另外一個部分我要請那個沈記長請你講你的報告當中我還有看到你有另外寫到那約聘人力的下降各縣市沒有超過5%但是我跟你講地方跟中央都一樣都把人力的原本轉化成這個派遣或派遣後轉化成外包變成是優惠的名義來代替人事我跟你講這個呢會讓更基層的 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12164.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12167.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這些公務從業人員更無過保障這個你應該更大膽了有 我們寫出來臨時人員已經佔比將近50我們要他要面對問題那個總研究法可能要整個你像那個救安局情救安署那個百分之50以上通通是臨時人員派錢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12190.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12198.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
要去問 非正常的一個你要用比較強烈的手段來扭曲改變這種扭曲的現象人家已經很亂探我了我已經很練你的任期現在還要5 6年我都努力對不對 你要努力還有那個經濟弱勢更嚴重經濟弱勢的部分那個我上次就說到貧窮線的門檻實在是太高了 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12213.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12220.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
第一個 門檻太高第二個呢 社會救助的平常門檻呢15年都沒有檢討15年都沒有檢討對 我也查出這個你要要求啊 要求消防單位啊這個沒處理啊但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12229.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12252.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
行政部門要做這個啊不是中央出問題而已地方也出問題地方出什麼問題所有中低收入戶要來的都嚴格審查審核非常嚴格審核非常嚴格是為什麼為了省錢啊所以說你看看過去五年整個低收入部中低收入少了十萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12254.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12282.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
告訴委員11211你11年112年有11萬筆的這個申請沒有通過告訴委員所以弱勢會變成越弱勢啊貧富不均或者所得分配不均這個是對國家影響很大我會做長期的審計長期的審計我會提出來因為這個能夠把人民的那個大家的那個一些你像服務業和高科技業怎麼能比而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12283.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12311.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
整個全台灣最低收入的20%的人30年的財產不增繁減 三個檔喔又減一趴喔 你看我們的經濟成果這是總統講說要把這個經濟成長化為數字 化為實質的幫助嘛你這個角色就很重要啦我再看看喔地方出問題 中央也出問題中央也出什麼問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12312.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12337.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
你每五年啊這個衛福部應該每五年檢討一次的社福綱領啊13年也都沒有檢討了因為我們現在的財政還不錯所以我比較你講的中間嘛我們既然財政不錯這民進黨執政快10年以來從小英政府當初接手馬英九的時候那個公債的負 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12338.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12362.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
已經接近上限4.5那時候39點幾現在降不到25所以說我們現在國家不是沒有錢是要怎麼用錢的問題所以你應該教這些單位好好用錢還有連院級也出問題不是部我剛剛說地方政府然後部級然後院級也出問題院級出什麼問題行政院的改善所得分配專案小組拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12365.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12380.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
他用一個經濟發展委員會我看過他開一遍會我跟你講我不曉得是你報告寫得不夠好還是寫得不夠好我已經很強硬了你可能還要再寫一份更精進一點更強悍一點 必要時候該送公務委員還有那個貧富不均 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12388.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12399.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
對國家影響很大我們會除息損盡你不是長期 而且要定期不是一年 搞不好要半年我會除息損盡持續請進 加強損盡好不好我這個會加強損盡就對國家太重要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12404.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12430.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我也會好好監督你啦你監督我 我好好監督你啦好 謝謝主席謝謝郭國文委員接下來王世堅委員王世堅 王世堅委員不在吳秉瑞委員 吳秉瑞 吳秉瑞委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在李昆城 李昆城 李昆城委員不在林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12431.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12445.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速交個別委員及本聯席會 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12447.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12466.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那委員羅明才 黃珊珊 林思敏所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那現在我們來進行討論事項先請議事人員宣讀提案的條文如果有修正動議也一併宣讀宣讀以後我們馬上來進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12469.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12497.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
未便於討論審查法案的時候請列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座好了 現在請宣讀條文討論事項 審查監察院韓情審議審計部組織法第七條第十條及第十四條條文修正草案案第七條審計部至副審計長二至三人輔助審計長處理部務其中一人職務比照檢認第十四職等其餘職務列檢認第十四職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12498.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12505.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
第10條出條文內審計稽查等職稱之原額修正為審計85人至115人稽查52人至79人職務均列檢認第8職等至第9職等其中審計35人稽查25人的列檢認第10職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12515.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12532.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
至第十一則等外其餘均同現行條文第十四條第一項出手據修正為省紀部於各省直轄市縣市著涉省紀處事掌理各該地方政府及其所屬機關之省紀事項外其餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12533.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12561.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
同現行條文 第二項未修正 增訂第三項如下 審計部所屬審計處至處長一人由審計官兼任職務列檢認第十二指等至第十三指等 第四項修正為 除現項規定外 審計處事之組織另以法律定之繼續選讀修正動議部分 修正動議共三件 修正動議一第七條 增訂第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12563.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12577.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
除專定第二項為前項職務比照檢任第十四職等之副審計長應由現任或承認副審計長者擔任外 於同監察院提案提案委員吳宗憲等 專政動議二 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12580.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12601.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
第七條修正為審計部至副審計長二人至三人逐列檢任第十次職等輔助審計長處理務務第十條除審計官修正為十二人至十八人主任秘書一人後增列得由審計官兼任 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12601.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12627.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
及審計修正為95人至125人稽查修正為60人至87人外與同監察院提案第14條除第三項莫具修正為職務列檢任第13職等外與同監察院提案提案人李燕秀等孫振東一三 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12628.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12652.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
第七條說證為審計部至證物副審計長一人職務比照檢認第十四職等常務副審計長一至二人職務列檢認第十四職等輔助審計長處理部務請向證物副審計長資格適用第二條第一款第二款之規定提案人翁曉琳等宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12655.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12671.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好條文已經宣讀完畢現在進行討論我們審查監察院函請審議審計部組織法第7條第10條第14條條文修正草案那請問在場委員本案是否要進行大體討論或者直接進行主條審查我看就主條了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12683.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12705.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們審查審計部組織法第七條第十條十四條修正草案我們現在繼續進行逐條討論第七條有監察院的提案還有吳宗憲委員等三人所提修正動議李燕秀等三人所提修正動議翁曉琳委員等四人所提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12718.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12724.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我看在場只有翁委員你在翁委員你是不是提案人先表達一下你的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12725.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12744.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好 那麼這次本席的提案基本上我是大家發現我是支持就是審計部這裡所希望能夠增設這個政務的副審計長這樣的一個方向但是前提是他必須要是專業的而且曾經擔任過審計官所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12747.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12761.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我提出的修正動議裡面其實就是把現在的審計部組織法裡面任用審計長的資格的前兩款然後放在未來副審計長政務副審計長也必須要符合就曾經擔任過審計長或副審計長或是審計官9年以上表現良好的才可以擔任政務的副審計長那這個部分其實之前也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12773.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12781.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
審計長這裡也溝通過了那他基本上也同意我的這樣的修法那麼還有就是說為什麼這裡講到政務副審計長的這個用詞因為現在就是在其他的組織法裡面我們有什麼政務次長然後常務次長前面都會加一個政務所以我的這個修法就是把政務副審計長跟常務副審計長就把它講得清楚所以常務副審計長就一到兩人政務副審計長就是一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12805.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12818.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
請機關來做說明翁委員的修正動議我現在先問省紀長你們機關的看法然後再請全序部來做意見的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12819.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12847.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我們尊重翁委員他第一個那個第一項體力上現在的體力都這樣第二個他這個可以要求的專業或者是獨立或者都強化了強化了可以度一些大家的一些餘力所以我非常認同翁委員的這個提案尊重翁委員的全序部呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12853.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12876.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
現在是講那個處長那一塊修正動議修正動議啦 現在的翁委員的修正動議現在審計 翁委員修正動議政府那一塊我們尊重那個大案決議政府副審計長我們尊重大案決議因為這個涉及到的是中央行政機關組織基金網人種的前線跟大案的一個審議前則 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12881.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12897.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我現在是沈記長 現在尊重翁委員的修正動議嘛我當然要問問你們幾權序部啊修正動議如果這樣的話 我們也可以同意啦因為那個是讓他比較專業 比較獨立一點所以你們兩個機關全部都同意囉是那第七條 在場委員還有沒有其他的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12905.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12930.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我沒有意見只要請全序部再次確定因為翁委員的修正動議把人數然後相關工作分配然後職等都寫得非常清楚甚至是副審計長的任用資格你要確定喔要確定喔拜託再三確定你剛剛好像沒有你們都沒意見我就要找翁委員對 你看他還有寫到資格喔適用第二條第一款第二款制規定喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12935.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12941.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這一個部分我們尊重對 副省紀長這一塊我們認為沒問題啦OK 好 那就第七條就到翁小林委員的修正動議通過啦 好不好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12951.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12977.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
接下來我們看第十條就是有監察院的提案還有李彥秀委員等三人所提的修正動議那第十條 哇 不來呢那就請機關來做說明一下我們同意李彥秀的動議他還是 因為我本來估一到三年 我都需要現在他動到五年因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12981.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13000.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
人種剛剛那個郭委員有問他他已經諸無其處不一定給我們人但是這個我們在這個法治上已經到空間已經很小了那就我們就照李委員的建議意見來努力全區部你沒意見 人種 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13011.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13032.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
您有意見嗎他不會給我意見因為提案委員不在所以沒有辦法提他的因為他的條文就寫在這個地方要請你們表達那主席我先發問了沒關係 讓他講一下看你有要講嗎原則上第10條的部分人總這邊尊重您哪個尊重 來 在場委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13034.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13043.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我不是李燕修委員拜託的啦但是我們來看一下李委員的修正動議裡面他說主任秘書一人得由審計官兼任 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13044.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13067.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個也OK嗎 沈機長OK 因為我的倫理不足我通通把行政倫理調來做審計人力所以我的主任秘書是不是審計官你不用審計機關他不能查證 不能看什麼報告他只能幫我做一些行政的所以我現在就用審計官去檢因為這個有的時候倫理不足各方想方設法 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13068.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13095.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
你這樣 我知道陳委員的意思就是說你這樣會不會比較低階的去監政高階他他也都守護主席 審計官也守護主席但是審計官要查帳 要看審核報告所以他已經擾入我們因為我們所有的公司要經過主任秘書他如果行政的 他只負責行政我現在要他負責包括審計的A5你有沒有夠準來 全區部 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13099.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13123.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
他現在是要照李彥秀委員的修正動議他把那個檢認那一塊原先他們你的部分已經不列進來那只增加那個鑑認職務那鑑認職務總共增加18個就這一塊 前續部尊重好 您也尊重喔來 還有其他委員有沒有什麼看法要不然要叫李彥秀委員的修正動議過去喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13125.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13130.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
可以 第10條我們就按照李恩秀等三人所提的修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13131.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13156.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
來接下來我們審第十四條修正動議就是監察院提案跟研修等三人所提的修正動議來 現在沒來就都請機關先表達看法本來是所有到十三他是照現在的體制都改成十三就是符合現在所有的機關不會比別人矮一等這個都敬表尊重好了聽好了 全區部 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13160.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13185.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
因為這一塊審計處是他的下屬機關所以在這個地方我們認為如果要有審計官兼任那個植物類等要嘛就拿掉要嘛就拿掉回到原先的那個組織通則那邊的規定12子等去處理將來再去修那邊因為他目前的審計官是列12那在這個地方審計處列12到13他就他跟其他機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13187.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13207.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
來比較是橫平不過如果讓他這樣規定下去變成審計部有13最高類等到13的一個植物跟部會的層級會不橫平所以我們是建議如果要這樣處理的話要嘛就是中間有審計官兼任這部分拿掉要嘛就植物類等拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13209.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13211.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
哇 你們兩個都很順眼等一下 沒關係在場我也沒什麼其他不同看法這樣好 你們兩個先完結這樣 我問一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13219.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13245.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
因為我現在通常十三點我現在想這個 我本來是說我剛才有說 跟前市部說我就發到十三點 你看叫我用列登表 用十二點他說你去想法 你要怎麼想法 我都準備了我就上來這裡改做十二跟十三現在所有的 剛剛大家委員都支持這是地方都做十三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13247.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13260.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
中央的部會都13點 只有我才13點但是前四部都沒有給我13點用一個行政命令給我打下來所以我剛才心情很壞就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13262.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13269.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
他現在也 下面補充說的剛才我跟他說 我去看他們補充 他們說好好好這是合規定 他的公文來也說這是合規定他的公文也說這是合規定沒有啦 他的公文我們沒看到啦補充也沒來 你們兩個沒辦法對峙你知道嗎 沒准算啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13283.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13299.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
沒有啦 我公文給你我判斷不出你跟部長沒有來的部長裡面誰講的是真的啊因為你們現在意見是看公文啦 看公文這樣來 全劇部就是說當初可能那個部長這邊跟我們部長談的沒有講到兼任那一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13300.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13317.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我堅信就是我剛才有說的我堅信是這樣 你要叫我的心結我是我的心結 我要說心結我嫌那是他都要處理炒燒 要不然那個廠長不能處理炒燒你們兩個不用吵 我問那個總緣額的人總人總來 人總人總你們表達一下看法 不然我要處理了好 OK 人總你們的看法 你對這個的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13329.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13350.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這個涉及到官職官規啦所以我們原則上今天你代理來就最大的因為代表機關是主席還有各位委員原則上因為這個涉及到官職官規啦所以我們也是尊重那個全局部意見跟大院的決議好啦 那我聽來 翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13352.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13375.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
因為剛剛全序部所提的問題我不是很了解你的意思講說要就是把審計官兼任這一句刪掉然後只保留職務列檢任第12到第13值等是嗎或者是說直接寫說是自處長一人由審計官兼任然後就不列值等 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13379.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13393.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這個為什麼會有這樣子的它的本質本質審計官還是列12指等而已所以簡單來說就是你們基本上是不太同意就是審計處的處長列為13指等 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13399.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13407.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
這一塊我們是可以同意他如果再修那個組織通則那就沒問題不過因為他修在這個地方變成是感覺上變成是審計部的一個內部職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13410.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13436.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
所以你们只是认为讲说他的这个修法他的放的位置可能不是太适合但是如果真的修在这法律里面也没有什么关系因为你的大方向重点是一样只是你认为说其实不见得一定要修法修组织通则就可以了所以基本上就是你们还是认为说其实他这个审计处的处长可以列为13执政的这件事情是没有问题的 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13437.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13451.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
委員可以補充報告一下嗎因為現在中央二級機關就是司處長這些職務主任秘書都是12職等而已中央三級機關的首長有13職等所以我們要強調的是說處長可以但是是三級機關的首長13職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13455.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13480.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
不會是審計官來兼這個處長列13職等那接下來我想請教審計長就是如果說現在按照學習部的建議的話就是如果我們的條文就直接寫審計部所屬審計處自處長一人職務列檢認第12到第13職等把審計官兼任的這個詞拿掉那審計處處長有可能由非審計官來擔任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13482.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13485.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
在過去的下來的慣例裡面有沒有說審計處的處長是由非審計官來擔任委員這樣的建議我主要 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13491.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13513.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那個 主要能通過啊方法我都沒意見啦其實我的法已經十三指等了啦那他們就卡來卡去 卡了我我也不知道如何是好啦啊他們都 只是主要 沒關係 沈記處處長我只想知道就是說是現在的沈記處處長 我不知道有送去以後 不行不行 你是只好這樣我聽得懂啊現在的沈記處處長有沒有可能會由非沈記官來擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13518.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13536.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我們一定會派審計官因為他要附著查賬謝謝翁委員這樣啦 那個審計長提案委員 李燕秀委員也現在到場了你們現在準備一下參照這麼多委員的意見你們研擬相關的文字提出來我今天給你處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13539.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13554.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我們接下來請提案委員李燕秀委員非常感謝主席我讓大家可以好好吃個便當所以我儘速簡短感謝大家第十條的部分遵照我的版本通過第十四條的部分看起來有機會有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13556.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13573.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我還是要再一次強調謝謝主席給我講一兩分鐘的話我還是認為在國外主計單位在監察院底下都是一個獨立單位而且它的層級不能太低當然更重要的是維持監察審計的獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13575.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13586.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
讓我們所有人民可以信服信任這樣的一個單位是很重要的另外如果派一個既然我們的審計長是由總統提名立法院同意的我們怎麼會在他底下派一個政務用的第七條副審計長是政務任用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13596.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13615.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這就會讓外界我們今天在討論的不是是一個組織草案的調整政黨都會輪替但我們希望我們這個組織是大家可以人民可以信任所以我一直認為用政務派的副審計長這個邏輯是很怪的派一個政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13616.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13633.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
在裡面督軍這個邏輯實在是未來如何去維持這個審計處的審計單位的獨立性我知道啦但是我還是要說我還是認為我有不同的意見跟看法所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13635.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13660.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
即便最後過了當然這個還有朝野協商我也還會再去講冷凍期間我還是可以去表達我的意見但是我覺得審計長未來如何我不知道接下來會派的是誰如果萬一是通過的話你如何去維持你的你底下有這麼多的人有這麼多的事項如何去維持每一個案件審計單位的獨立性 客觀性 中立性這個就是很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13662.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13666.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那個謝謝委員大家都懷疑但是翁委員已經幫我們解這個問題我們是強化了那個審計還有那個獨立還有專業所以那個足夠限定但是常務任用也是一樣啊也是可以維持這樣的功能啊全部都常務任用也是可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13683.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13700.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
政務任用難免就是我是行政院總統這邊派下來的行政院派下來的我怎麼好去檢討我的國防部我的環境部我的勞動部可以接受我就接受我就是讓事情順就好了意思說常務就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13702.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13705.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
謝謝李燕秀委員的發言我先來處理一下在第14條條文修正文字提出之前我們先來處理幾個附帶決議一共有兩案之後再回頭來處理第14條 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13728.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13733.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那這兩案請一併宣讀宣讀以後我們再主案來進行處理請宣讀負擔決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13738.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13763.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
我國中央政府採五權五權分立制度審計權與彈劾糾舉等權同為監察權之一審計職權由審計機關行使之未讓審計人依法獨立行使其審計職權不受干涉原此副審計長之任用資格均因以現任審計官為優先考量以確立審計權之獨立性提案委員李燕秀等人附帶決議二 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13765.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13786.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
有鉴于今年政府收支预算规模持续迅速扩张审计部所审和监督预算收支金额从85年度11兆3697亿余元至114年已增长至27兆5184亿余元审计业务明显 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13789.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13809.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
預區繁重為地方審計處是現有預算人力大多不足以不足法定下限若未能同步即時補足審計相關人力恐無法遵應業務需求善盡監督職能原則要求行政院人事行政總處統籌積極協助與三年內分別就6個直轄市審計處增給預算員的12人15個縣市審計室增給預算員的75人 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13818.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13843.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
以提升地方審計量能 善盡審計職責提案委員 李燕秀等人 宣讀完畢好 附帶決議第一案這寫得很清楚啦但是還是要問一下提案委員要不要再補充說明好 如果沒有補充說明的話我們針對附帶決議請問機關有沒有其他意見或者說明我們尊重好 尊重 那就照附帶決議第一案的通過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13844.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13848.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
第二案 第一案我們就召案通過第二案機關有沒有意見或者文字修正來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13865.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13883.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
是主席還有提案委員那個任總這邊表達一下就是附帶決議第二案的部分因為涉及到預算員的增加部分那第一個是那個總緣分法是那個監察院也是在總緣分法的適用範圍然後再加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13884.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13906.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
審計部其實是監察院還有立法院跟行政院之間跨院級之間的協調所以是不是可以容我們就是說在這個那個附帶決議的部分就是請我們人事行政總署統籌協助然後針對他的人力的部分來積極的來協助就是不要直接限定那個年份跟人數這樣子跟審議的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13909.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13926.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
的結果,而且這個還要到院長的部分,可能不是好啦,那你擬一下修正文字好不好是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是,是, |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13945.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13958.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我不知道省市長怎麼搞的,好像有辦法把你們藍白都搞定,那功率有夠高的那就是對你們比較好,對我們不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13973.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13998.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以你們不要周圍都過了全部都嘗試了嗎大家都有沒有沒有沒有 可是我們剛剛已經過囉過了 我知道我是剛過 而且我後會委員他們自己支持喔對啊 我們剛剛是已經過了你這樣的話 變成還要再重新翻看對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14033.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14061.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
這樣啦 我今天盡量都教你們的藝術尊重機關啦大家也 要不然這個 我們就叫那個沈機長 你看你教你們的藝術啦 好不好文字你們擬出來沒有祝沈機關兼處長一人 主務列檢任第十三職等這個也和前系部討論過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14070.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14074.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好 這樣條文第七條當然不行 第七條已經宣告過了我現在是在說修正動議的部分14條啦 我說14條啦14條 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14101.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14105.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
來 印給大家啦 你們都看過了喔 可以 好 來 印給大家現在要說第七條 第七條就通過了 現在剛好都宣告啊那個我已經宣告了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14129.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14133.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14165.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14167.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
謝謝你啦 謝謝你啦你交代的事情我都有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14179.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14198.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
哪個立法院最和諧的一天把那個修正條文印出來那給在場的委員一個人一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14201.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14207.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
如果文字大家看完沒有問題的話就請大家簽一下在場委員簽一下畫押了 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14294.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14320.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
好 你不要開槓 修正文字快點給我好 這樣大家簽名 好不好因為他用審計官兼處長一人前面就是說那個職務已經是審計處的人而不再是審計部的人我聽懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14323.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14330.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
沒關係啦 這樣好了啦 他們說好了就好了啦也不要讓全序部覺得他今天轉播器械這樣也不好啦人家他也有堅持啦剛剛我們其實已經已經放掉一塊本來私下 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14337.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14366.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
市下那個審計處審計部這邊是跟我們講那個檢認輝主管那一塊是不修不過看起來今天是會上市額外再去加鑑認的年額除了他們原先提案以外額外再加鑑認年額那檢認的年額會照他們原先的提案通過那一塊已經是增加出來了那當然他那個鑑認年額鑑認年額因為他都沒有增加科長的年額也就是說檢輝他一定到150了 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14368.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14380.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
減灰的比例已經到150這塊其實就會超出現有的那個配置比例所以我不能跟你說我都要每一個機關都要你們表達意見因為剛剛審計部是講說那一塊不修啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14386.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14411.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
我的 我是向委員報告我的科長也要 因為我的徵用條例裡面一定都要用審計監因為他要查賬 他要帶人出去查賬所以 因為這是我的特質因為用我的特質 特性用我的特性去拿到行政部門用那個來處理就很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14415.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14415.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
第四條 第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14444.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14458.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
修正為審計部所屬審計處自審計官兼處長一人職務列檢任第十三職等案人翁曉琳、李燕秀、王逸川、陳培宇宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14461.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14473.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
好文字修正有沒有意見如果沒有的話我們就依討論或修正的文字通過複代決議第二案文字修正連結來不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14481.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14483.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我叫人事總署的你叫人事總署的今天各位有堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14501.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14513.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那附帶決議二有鑒於近年政府收支預算規模持續迅速擴張 審計部所審核監督預算收支金額從85年度11兆3697億餘元至114年已增長至27兆5184億餘元 審計業務明顯區 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14526.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14543.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
越區繁重為地方審計處是現有預算能力大多不足法定下限若未能同步及時補足審計相關能力恐無法支應業務需求善盡監督職能原此要求行政院人事行政總處統籌積極協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14546.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14558.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
並就直轄市審計處及縣市審計室業務實際需要及推動數位審計情況核實審議事實增加合理能力以提升地方審計能量 善盡審計職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14563.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14575.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
你那些文字只要你一個人唸,我們都沒看到,好啦,你附帶決議,你若不是這麼遵守的話,就照這樣給過,好啦,但是你們以後不要這樣,你們要唸,每一個人要有一份,好,這樣,當然啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14585.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14594.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
沒有啦,那個啦,印出來啦,看印出來跟你黏的有一樣,總是要確認嘛,對不對,這是最基本的嘛,要不然你們吃快點看我 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14603.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14624.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
慢慢讓大家會順今天省紀長這邊你們提出來 監察院提出了草案在場委員或者各政黨也提出修正案 經過大家的討論機關代表不同的意見 攻防反駁各有堅持 各有底線 然後折衝 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14626.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14627.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
文字給各位委員的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14656.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14666.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
來 各位委員請看附帶決議二的修正文字如果沒有意見的話名字再簽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14668.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14691.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
這邊的話有一點點小小的文字的修正就是說最後的這個並就職銷市審計處及縣市審計是業務實際需要及推動數位什麼情況然後逐年核實審議增加人力增加合理人意 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14692.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14705.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
就是多增加逐年核實啦要逐年去核實審議的增加合理的人力可以嗎這樣 加下去 再訂銀 再訂簽好 好 好好 OK來 趕快逐年核實審議可以啊 總是要文字要加進去逐年核實審議這怎麼增加我要等你 加下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14719.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14719.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
各位聽清楚嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14766.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14766.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14772.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14774.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14809.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14810.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
好 多歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14826.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14831.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那附帶決議二就按照修正文字通過本案逐條均已處理完畢來做以下的宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會來公決本案是我交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14851.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14855.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
本案就不需交付黨團協商那院會討論的時候由莊昭偉委員瑞雄出席說明附帶決議兩項一併提報院會處理那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席跟議事人員來做整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14872.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14881.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那議程所列的討論事項我們都已經處理完畢本次會議非常順利進行到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家 |