| IVOD_ID |
17103 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17103 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-08T08:35:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-08T17:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:54:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ac324107c9b9b84ec8d57d4fb8c01030b4456b5c46cbb78c2e5a630dc7fea84b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查
一、行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
三、委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
四、委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
五、委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
六、委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
七、委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
八、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
九、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十、委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十一、委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十二、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十三、委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十四、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十五、委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十六、委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十七、委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。
十八、委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十九、委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十一、委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十二、委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十四、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十五、委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十七、委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十八、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十九、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
【逐條討論】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:33 - 17:30:00 |
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1500.802 |
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1504.521 |
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報告委員會出席委員人數六人一組法定人數請主席宣布開會 |
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1508.615 |
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好 現在看會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十四次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年12月3日星期三9時至18時16分12月4日星期四9時9分至13時34分地點群憲樓801會議室出席委員陳委員招資等15人列席委員證委員證錢等19人列席官員勞動部部長洪森翰等相關人員 |
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1554.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席廖肇吉委員韋祥報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查及審查外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案等26案本次會議經委員林月琴范雲及王振旭說明提案指去有修正動議一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1556.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1574.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決議一 外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案等26案審查完略內容如審查結果並按你具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由廖兆吉委員韋翔補充說明須交黨團協商二 本法案條次條文中援引條次及法制用於 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1574.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1592.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
调整授权议事人员整理相关立法说明授权行政单位提供审查结果照案通过委员廖伟祥等25人及委员刘建国等16人提案第一张章名委员刘建国等16人提案第二张章名第六条第三张章名第17条及第五张章名 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1593.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1612.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
第二條 照委員劉建國等16人提案通過第三條 依依委員劉建國等16人提案及仲裁各委員意見修正通過第四條 照委員劉建國等16人提案通過第五條 依依委員劉建國等16人提案及仲裁各委員意見修正通過第七條 照委員劉建國等16人提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1613.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1636.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第八條 照委員劉建國等十六人提案及仲裁各委員意見修正通過第九條 依照委員劉建國等十六人提案委員王玉敏 陳昭芝 廖偉翔 邱振軍 盧憲一 屠犬及黃建豪及羅廷維等八人所提修正動議仲裁各委員意見修正通過第十條 依照委員劉建國等十六人提案及仲裁各委員意見修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1636.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1665.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第十一條至第十六條照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過第十八條至第二十一條照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過第二十二條依照委員劉建國等十六人提案委員林月琴修正建議仲裁各委員意見修正通過第二十三條照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過第四章張明照委員劉建國等十六人提案通過勞動部現場要求將下列一及二 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1666.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1685.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
一及二部分請詳書面並同第24條及第25條審查經召委詢問現場委員無異議後並同審查第24條依照委員劉建國等16人提案修正通過第25條至第28條召委員劉建國等16人提案通過不予採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1686.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1703.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
一委員侯孟楷等21人委員羅廷輝等20人委員楊崇英等19人委員萬美玲等16人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人及委員林倩琦等21人提案第4條條文二委員廖偉祥等25人提案第二章至第5章章名及第7章章名 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1704.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1727.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
三委員紅夢凱等21人委員羅廷輝等20人委員楊從英等19人委員張家駿等16人委員劉建國等17人及委員林建啟等21人提案第6條條文委員羅志強等19人提案第5條條文四台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐宇貞等23人委員徐曉清等17人及委員盧憲義等16人提案第6條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1728.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1757.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
委員萬美玲等十六人提案第八條條文委員李昆城等二十一人提案第四條條文委員羅志強等十九人提案第十條條文五委員侯孟卡等二十一人委員羅廷威等二十人委員楊從英等十九人委員張家俊等十六人委員劉建國等十七人及委員林倩琦等二十一人提案第八條條文台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員王宏威等二十人委員黃靜豪等十七人委員徐宇貞等二十三人委員徐巧欣等十七人及委員盧憲一等十六人提案第十條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1758.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1787.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
委員萬美玲等十六人及委員羅志強等十九人提案第十四條條文六委員侯孟開等二十一人委員羅廷輝等二十人委員楊瓊英等十九人委員張家俊等十六人委員劉建國等十七人及委員林倩琦等二十一人提案第七條條文台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員王宏威等二十人委員黃建豪等十七人委員徐宇貞等二十三人委員徐巧欣等十七人及委員盧憲一等十六人提案第九條條文委員萬美玲等十六人提案第二十 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1788.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1814.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委員萬美玲等16人提案第11條條文委員羅志強等19人提案第13條條文7委員黃婕等16人提案第16條條文保留條文委員洪孟凱等21人台灣民眾黨黨團委員羅廷惟等20人委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員楊從英等19人民進黨黨團委員萬美玲等16人委員黃建豪等17人委員林月清等18人委員張家俊等16人委員徐宇珍等23人 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1815.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1841.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
委員范雲等十六人委員郭育晴等十六人委員林楚英等二十三人委員劉建國等十七人委員賴瑞榮等十八人委員林倩琦等二十一人委員李坤辰等二十一人委員王正旭等二十三人委員徐巧欣等十七人委員羅志強等十九人委員盧憲一等十六人委員廖偉祥等二十五人委員黃潔等十六人及委員劉建國等十六人提案法案名稱及第一條條文通過附帶決議六項宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1844.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1866.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那議事錄確定本日會議議程為繼續審查行政院函請審議委員分別凝聚兒童托育服務法草案等29案首先介紹在場委員及列席官員王振旭委員陳昭之委員廖偉祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1875.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1899.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那在場的官員有衛生福利部的呃呂健德政務次長社家署的張美美副署長法規會的陳信成參事保護服務師的張靖倫專委醫事師的卓麗萍檢認激症國民健康署的健康婦呃婦幼健康組的張英純檢認激症 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1902.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1924.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
內政部護政師蘇志萌檢論視察警政署防治組的王玉峻專員消防署救災救護組代理科長莊念恩國土署建管組葉先鋒專員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1930.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1948.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
財政部國有財產署的張翠芳副組長教育部國簽署的郭姿穎副組長法務部的汪南君參事經濟部人事處張雅慧專委勞動部勞動條件及就業平等師的顧家榮專委勞動福祉退休師李娟鳳專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1964.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1985.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
勞動關係師許瓊月專員金融監督管理委員會保險局的陳蘭君組長園民會的社會福利處的柯雪燕專委行政院人事總處給予福利處謝艾倫專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1989.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2011.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
各自保護委員會籌備處法制事務組陳錦怡科長先做以下說明本委員會先前已就兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案完成第一輪之主條審查經決議尚未審查完均 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2011.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2025.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
令則期繼續審查現就第一輪保留條文進行審查每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見那兒托法第一輪審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2026.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2045.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
疾病案審查一百三十三條張次等保留條文計五十九條現在進行本案保留條文逐條討論現在討論第二條條文我們來看我們的檢表那先請衛福部說明真點 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2050.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2067.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席各位委員 衛福部報告 第二針點的部分主要是希望是能夠增列相關目的事業主管機關辦理的事項我們衛福部的考量大概是第一個是因為我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2069.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2091.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
而托的這個相關的單位其實是蠻清楚是有一些相關單位那我們在行政院的條文裡面第二項是有提到涉及的各目的事業主管機關的業務的時候各該機關應該要立刻要配合我們覺得這個部分應該是可以含括各目的事業主管機關的配合的這個事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2092.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2111.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那各目的事业主管机关本来就有它主责的业务所以如果在这里其实我们在儿托法里面其实是儿权法里面其实是会有列出来各对于儿童权益相关的各目的事业主管机关的这个他们应该要配合的事项所以我们觉得在儿托法这里其实 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2112.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2136.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
建議是可以遵照就是建議可以參照行政院的這個版本就是我們綜合的來談只要涉及到各目的事業主管機關的業務的時候他們就應該要配合以上這樣以簡化我們一些相關的文字以上報告好這邊是建議照行政院版本提案通過那其他委員要不要表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2144.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2169.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沒有意見的話我們就按照行政院那個行政院版通過好那接下來審查第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2172.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2183.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
還有修正動議第八那一樣的請我們的衛福部說明那個針點 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2186.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2207.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好先說明增點的部分是委員建議是要新增由縣市主管機關聘僱居家托育提供公共化的居家托育服務以及希望在第九款互助式的這個托育機構考量這個偏鄉跟離島的特性要收託對象要混合的收託 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2208.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2228.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那衛福部的另外就是替代性照顧政策的這三個部分那衛福部的考量大概是替代性照顧政策的定義我們在兒少權法裡面其實會明定那希望能夠在兒少權法裡面來處理替代性的照顧政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2228.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2254.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那第二個是針對於公共的托育的這個部分因為我們目前的行政部門並沒有就是僱用這個公共的保姆所以我們還是建議我們大部分在縣市裡面我們現在目前國家推動的是準公共化的這個政策所以我們也希望是按照行政院的這個版本那另外一個就是對於偏鄉的這個混零收拖的部分那我們本來是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2256.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2283.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
院版的第20條裡面其實就有提到的偏鄉還有離島的地區它是可以放寬收拖的到六歲這樣子其實是混也就是實質上是可以混零收拖的以上說明這邊也是建議照行政院提案通過那各委員請表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2286.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2299.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
林淑芬委員這一條我們要討論的就是說定點的零拖這個名詞要不要定義定點的零拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2307.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2317.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
因為後面有一些就是說談到定點零拖那也會談到一些責任所以是不是需要講清楚一下需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2320.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2343.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是不是請衛福部先做說明臨時托育的定義跟委員報告我們其實托育的型態其實它有很多元老有日間的夜間的全日的那另外就是有零托那這個我們會在授權執法裡面把它定義清楚那你少子女化對策也有定點零托那我們可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2347.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2360.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
立法說明欄裡面對於就是要求要對臨時托育的定義要在相關的執法裡面要談清楚這樣子好好不好好那就是造型正願版通過應該要加一點文字說明立法說明欄裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2377.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2391.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 那立法說明就請衛福部 剛剛參與我們署分委員的意見 要把那個臨時拖曳的那個臨時拖曳那邊 把他提起主席 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2414.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2432.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那請王委員第三條裡面有關於這個行政原版的部分好像零拖的部分雖然剛剛蘇分委員有提到是還沒有非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2432.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2449.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
是不是這邊可以 雖然已經把各個狀況都有寫入了可是有關的連託的部分是不是還請主管機關在這邊再確認一下有關的連託的部分是要怎麼方式來入法 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2453.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2480.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好衛福部說明那因為我們的托育服務的型態其實它非常多元它有日間托育夜間托育前日托那零托也是其中一個部分那所以我們會在而托法通過之後的授權執法裡面明定托育服務的型態當然包括臨時托育這個部分也包括剛剛那個署分委員剛剛提到的這個定點零托我們其實會在授權執法裡面把它寫得比較清楚那 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2481.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2502.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在這個第三條裡面我們會在說明欄裡面把它做一些說明對 做一些補充趙委員剛剛的做一些補充會列在我們的授權辦法裡面去處理那立法說明裡面會把連託這一部分您剛剛所提到對 我們會寫在這一條的說明欄裡面把這個委員剛剛提的意見註記上去好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2504.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2525.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好 請陳委員 完了之後再請楊委員謝謝主席 我想再確認一次因為本法適用的是托育那過去我們覺得托育對象一般來說是未滿兩歲的嬰兒我是只是再做個確認那這邊的院版就定義兒童是未滿12歲之人這個跟我們很多包括在醫療界的定義都不一樣所以我想再確認一下未滿12歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2527.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2545.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
為什麼有這麼大的範圍是不是請魏婆婆再說明一下 謝謝好 那跟委員報告我們的托育機構或者是大部分收托的是未滿兩歲的那可是因為我們保母可以照顧的年齡是到12歲所以我們這邊的定義兒童就是未滿12歲以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2548.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2572.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝那這樣就是我們有很多法定義的兒童年齡都不一樣目前在兒權法裡面定義兒童就是未滿12歲兒少法裡面其實定義的就是醫療法或是健保全部都不一樣我今天就是做個確認我也確認一下就是互助式托育機構我們現在是改成6歲以下第九款 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2577.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2579.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
互助是我們應該是偏鄉里島是可以收 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2583.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2606.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
跟委員說明我們在上一次的院版的第20條已經有增加戶住離島偏鄉原住民地區的戶住室托育可以提供到未滿6歲的孩子的服務因為離島偏鄉其實在土地取得跟人員的培育上其實是相對困難的所以確定嗎確定在20條有訂好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2612.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2614.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那再請林書文抱歉我現在搞清楚就是說我們的定點零拖並不是相對於日拖或夜拖我們的定點零拖是相對於這個在宅服務或者是機構服務所以這個是這樣的概念出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2635.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2654.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那所以我們在載服務這個機構服務之外的定點零拖應該要講清楚所以他的相對概念不是日拖和夜拖所以需要在母法裡面這個再討論一下我們這一條是不是可以這個保留一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2658.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2672.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
對 衛福部說明剛剛有提到是說托育的型態當然是日托跟訂零托是不一樣不過零托它其實是可以是保姆到家裡去零托也可以是訂點零托所以零托也有不同的型態 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2673.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2696.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
不是啦對啦那我們在講零託的這個形態會有牽扯到這個權責嘛所以我們在定點零託要是屬於新興的這個照顧的形態那如果你要針對這樣的一個照顧你會有權利義務關係的規定那我們想在這個法的定義裡面講清楚這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2699.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2725.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們每一個托育的型態都也都有權利義務的關係對啊所以你們有有定義啊所以我們在授權辦法裡面會定跟委員報告是我們在講這裡是講的機構機構和這個在宅以外的這個零托啊你先保留好了主席好那麼這個就先保留你說你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2728.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2753.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
委員我可以說明一下請說明不管是托育機構或者是居家的托育我們都有分全日托育 日間托育 半日托育跟臨時托育也就是說這兩類我一直在講你們為什麼都聽不懂這不是相對日間或者是夜間這個叫做定點臨托也不是到保母家也不是到機構你們隨時在那個可能會設置的定點臨托 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2755.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2775.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
不是保姆家也不是家長家也不是托嬰中心也不是日托也不是夜托所以我們在講定點臨托為什麼定義是因為這個因素你們一直把我跟日托夜托到保姆家照顧叫臨托我們在講的是定點臨托所以這新的托育的型態而且你們已經有幾個點在運作了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2778.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2797.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以要管理臨時的托育服務就要先定義這個臨時托育是什麼還有場地也沒有規定這個定點您托裡面這個是你們少子女化2.0的政策推動的亮點各縣市政府辦的不是保姆也不是機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2799.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2827.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那如果你們要推動這個定點零拖讓家長更有彈性那你對定點零拖叫你們定一個定義你們為什麼要跟日拖夜拖扯在一起它也不是日拖夜拖的相對型態它也不是在宅或機構中心的相對型態這裡處理的不是這種概念我一直講不是這種概念你們鼓勵地方政府設定點零拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2828.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2842.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
他就不是機構也不是保姆家對不對所以在講要想是因為這樣子的概念你們還在說日拖夜拖還在說在宅或者是中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2843.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2866.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們是不是可以讓主管機關更完整的說明因為他剛才說到一半再繼續把你們完整的概念把他講完好不好看現在跟那個委員的那個不同的那個觀點在哪裡因為即使是定點零拖我想要去執行零拖的人員也不外乎是保姆或機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2868.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2889.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
不然還有第三種人那定點零拖的場所要怎麼管理那當然不是中心要怎麼管理你們可不可以完整的把它講一下現在淑芬委員一直覺得定點零拖它的執行的人員跟它的方式會跟你們現在所定義的這些是完全不同的所以他認為應該要有一個有可能是服務外送出去定點那個地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2890.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2916.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
他會覺得他很特殊啦那你們覺得其實他還是在整體托育的一環為什麼就是你們把他解釋的更清楚好不好跟委員說明我們定點零托就是臨時托育的一種類型那我們現在是依居托的辦法讓他在固定的工友場子可以設定點零托讓家長有需要的時候就可以去 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2917.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2936.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
有需要的時候就可以去使用所以我們現在那些場址都是公有場址那運用的人員也都是具有合格資格的居家托育人員那所以他的規範都在現在的法規的基礎下去做執行那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2938.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2966.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以你們現在的那個相關的辦法裡面針對定點零拖他的人員場所你們是有一套辦法的有運作的規則的有很清楚的運作規則人員的話就一定是要領那個居家托育服務登記證的保姆就是合格的居托人員才可以那地點的部分我們目前籌設的都是公有的場地那公有的場地其實相關公安都有一些相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2969.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2990.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
來 請林委員我想 署任委員會這樣提的確你們現在的那個定點零拖雖然有規定說要照顧孩子的人是誰可是場域的一些規範事實上我們沒有在母法裡面看得比較多很清楚那你現在事實上是放在你們的計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2992.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3013.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那就變成說我們到底那個場域的一些像逃生相關的有的甚至在我們的所謂的居福中心那甚至有的事實上是在哪些場域這場域事實上是沒有一些比較清楚的都一直在講公有可是我不認為公有的你所有搭配的到底真的就是做得很好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3014.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3022.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以我才會 我相信淑恩委員會這樣提所以要請你們真的是講清楚否則的話就應該是要定在無法裡面去做考慮 以上沒有啦 我再補充一下啦我給大家說明 因為大家都聽不懂嘛那我的意思是說它就不是在宅 也不是在中心或機構裡面縣市政府辦這個定點零託是第三種類型政府指定地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3042.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3064.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那委託團體或居家托育服務辦理那各縣市的運作類型有下面兩種就是說我去找一個親子館或社福中心現在也有其他縣市是私人就來申請說我的私人場所就要做這個定點零拖也可以但是說我這個場所都合格的我就不用任何規範我都不用任何那個了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3064.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3069.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
合格就沒問題了那我們在規範這個中心托嬰中心要比一般的消防安全合格還要更高的安全標準是什麼意義第二個他僱用這個全職人力合格人力那我們為什麼在機構裡面或中心裡面對人力不是只有合格的要求而已包括保姆在宅的時候我們對臨時有事去上廁所去買東西為什麼還要做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3094.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3117.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以這個定點零拖的狀況其實很多但如果管理托育的品質還有辦理的資格在法律上的這個切身都未明那各縣市的做法也不一所以因為這種狀況裡面我舉個例子有些縣市就規定定點零拖要有方式以確保品質有一些根本就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3117.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3139.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那目前我跟他講你一直講說是公有的這個既有的社會福利的一個社會福利的圖書館或什麼的或者是一個什麼空間然後就來定點零拖了可是呢是不是公有場址就都沒問題有消防安全合格就都沒問題我不知道另外我跟他講新北現在也有私人場地申請定點零拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3141.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3157.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那定点临托的媒合有两种一个是委托定点临托有两种有的是委托单位去经营有的是媒合保姆管理的监督的机制不明有的县市有访试有的县市不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3158.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3173.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以並不是說保姆都合格就好了我的場地都符合消防安全就好了這樣我們托嬰中心還需要省多嚴格那我保姆的在宅服務為什麼還要在羅利巴索的管理一大堆保姆出去的話要怎麼樣保姆臨時有事要怎麼樣為什麼還要這樣子管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3179.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3206.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以在这里我一直讲说这个定点宁多是新兴的而且不是机构也不是个人在宅这种东西我们各县市做法不一因为各县市做法不一所以我们要统一规定照顾比要不要规定托育人员的受雇性质要不要规定环境的安全规范要不要比只是这种整栋建筑安全消防及格就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3207.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3222.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這樣就好了嗎那它的管理監督機制收託要不要回報這個東西都是要一體考量你不要定點零託越做越好因為彈性化好用大家都去結果就容易就出問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3223.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3247.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以我們在講說定點零拖有一些權利責任的問題我們要在法律裡面講清楚那這個本來我想說這日拖夜拖就不是它不是相對日拖也不是相對於夜拖它也不是相對於機構也不是相對於這個它是相對於機構和在宅照顧的另一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3248.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3263.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以才說需要入法是這樣子的所以絕對不是日拖夜拖之後定點臨拖而是機構保姆然後之後另一種縣市政府彈性父母讓父母好照顧的定點臨拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3264.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3279.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這些照顧人力不用比嗎照顧環境不用安全嗎然後不用仿式嗎然後不用再有更高品質的這一些相關的規範嗎所以我們才說要不要放到法裡面是這樣講所以我們才說保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3280.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3300.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好 講很清楚 來 社長要回應 請說簡單啦 簡單三點 我非常驚佩 蘇芬委員所講的 因為我們現在確實有一些有關托育的部分我們現在確實是有一些需要更多的彈性化 我說一個簡單的例子0到2歲有時候伯父他要出去 他要去超市 他要去大型超市還是要電電那裡 他也可能很失省 有可能要去站在一個有辦法讓伯父安心的地方 這個地方不是只有公家的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3310.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3330.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
其他有一個大型民間的我估計高鐵站可不可以也設類似像國外已經有類似像這些像特別瑞典的這些有很多一些所謂非典型 非傳統的而這個事實上是確實可以符合很多新興父母因為父母他們自己本身也有很多工作彈性的需求所以不光車站 不光圖書館這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3332.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3359.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
類似像大型的民間機構他們可能也有這樣的一個需求這會不會對北部會有很多很多的一些整個彈性上的需要所以我完全同意剛才委員所說的這個部分牽涉到的是新興的我們應該要更多而且這確實是我們整個少子女化計畫裡面我們有寫進去這個我們認為應該也是一個亮點所以我知道這個有這個需求這裡面牽涉到剛剛說的新興的一些整個設置標準還有人員等等這些這個我們會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3360.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3388.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
回來推動 但是我現在是說可以看從委員一邊來清晰一下說因為你的設置標準的部分是不是我們在這簡單落一個款但是我們在授權執法裡面 我們來明定這個明定的部分包括你剛才說的甚至你剛才有一些公寓大廈上面的我們來參考國外的一些案例來做 但是沒關係啦 我們是這個部分我必須要困難的就是這個問題是未來的風險 我也向各位報告 上禮拜是我有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3389.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3416.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
有去總統府 總統報告總統有特別的講他現在我們少子女壞問題 最重要的是社會氛圍社會氛圍就是說我們現在要有很多對我們這些新手爸媽 很友善的措施這也是其中之一所以我這個部分 我們會來加強推動義兄謝謝對 就是我們這裡定義先放進去那相關的規範 如果可以放在法規我們再來看可是這裡都沒有定義上去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3418.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3440.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這是新興的 而且是未來的亮點的而且是必須要有權力責任上的規範的如果沒有權責上的要求的話我們自然不用放上去但是這裡有權力上 責任上的規範好 我們就先保留了好不好提出修正的文字出來繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3446.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3465.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
來進行第四條好 會府部報告第四條的部分委員關心是希望能夠增列這個兒童優質普及平價及競變性的托育服務這樣在開宗明義來宣示那第二個部分是希望在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3467.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3481.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
第三項裡面可以增加及原住民地區能夠提供適當的這個托育服務那另外也希望我們能夠對於新增中央應該要定期辦理托育資源及需求的調查並且公開的這個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3483.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3498.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那跟委員報告第一個就是宣誓性的這樣子開宗明義的宣誓我們行政院就參採各委員的建議也感謝各位委員所以我們在第四條裡面的第一項就是增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3500.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3518.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
就是除了原條文托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先考量那再增加委員建議的文字及提供兒童優質普及評價及競變性之托育服務那另外第三項的部分我們也增加了及援助民族地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3520.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3535.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這幾個文字那至於是說那個調查的這個部分我們其實是在第5條修正案的時候其實已經有規定中央主管機關應該要定期辦理托育需求調查及公開結果以上報告好各位有沒有其他的意見針對第4條因為我們還有修正東西第7跟第8 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3553.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3578.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那各位如果第四條沒有其他意見那我們就照行政院版本通過好謝謝修正通過對不對照行政院版本修正通過修正文字好那再來接下來是第五條的部分委員建議是要增列全國性托育推廣實驗那另外也要明定中央需要明定運用居家托育育人員照顧及家外安置兒童相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3579.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3603.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那再來的話是要協助托育人員及家長成立組織這三個針點那行政院這邊我們我們是為福部建議是第一個在中央主管機關剛剛有提到前一條的這個中央主管機關掌理的事項我們就增加了一點辦理托育定期辦理托育需求調查及分析及 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3604.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3623.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
訂定全國性托育服務的政策與法規與方案之規劃訂定推廣及研究那再來一個就是針對於成立這個組織的這個部分那我們是建議因為大部分的團體其實我們有人民團體法的相關規定所以是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3624.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3633.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
可以讓民眾或家長他們自主來組織這個團體的部分在法律的部分在我們的兒托法裡面不列入這樣子好 各位人針對第5條行政院的請林書威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3642.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3672.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就是說第一項就是說我們去辦理托育的需求調查及分析要幹嘛所以我們前面你後面是不是加兩個字叫據已據已訂定全國性的托育服務政策與法規和方案的規劃訂定和推廣就是要依據這一些調查和分析要加據已這樣才能知道他的相關性這可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3675.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3700.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
就是其實中央要訂出這個托育的政策然後依據調查的需求去訂定這樣子然後第三項我們希望這個托育需求的調查和分析可以公開嘛第三項可不可以在前面先增加一個叫第一項第一款定期辦理托育需求的調查及分析應公開這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3704.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3723.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
對就是我們很多其實調查這些調查政府機關很多然後很多也都有公開那我們也希望這個可以公開大概你們都會委外吧 委外然後就看到一個報告然後就跟他公開這樣子而已請理念請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3735.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3755.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
請衛福部說明一下因為當初我們有列上次在增點裡面我們有提到就是協助托育人員組織及家長組織的成立那我不知道這次還是沒有列進去那個考慮是什麼上次增點裡面我們還是期待是上次要放進去這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3758.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3778.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
概念就是說你還是要讓托育人員的組織能夠去協助他們能夠去輔導他們成立還有家長組織另外一個我們事實上蠻偏頗的就是說如果是在幼兒在嬰幼兒這個階段幾乎都沒有家長組織所以當一些問題要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3780.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3805.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
捍衛孩子權益的或捍衛托育人員的權益的時候常常往往事實上是沒有組織可以出來發聲所以我認為政府部門應該去扶持這是第一個第二個針對於你們把整個合併在第一項說定期辦理托育需求調查及分析訂定全國性的那個托育政策然後依著這個政策然後跟法規要來做推廣可是當初我擬的事實上是希望是 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3806.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3832.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
整個托育服務理念跟法規的宣導跟推廣好像就辣掉了像很多時候托育服務的理念如果沒有去宣導民眾很多事實上都不太了解說為什麼有這樣子的一個托育服務那個概念事實上是為了誰可是現在只是針對於政策跟法規去做宣推廣我覺得好像是跟當初我擬的另外一點事實上是好像你在和平的時候就 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3833.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3836.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
忽略掉那個托育服務理念 以上好來請王育民委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3841.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3863.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那個第五條這邊你們現在的修訂我覺得也沒有定的比原來委員提出來版本更好因為第一個我要講就是說全國性托育服務的政策法規方案的規劃訂定宣導及研究這個本來就是中央的責任第二個你現在要去辦的這一些定期的托育需求調查及分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3864.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3879.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個是另外一件事情就是這個部分是剛剛淑芬委員講的你應該要去公開或者是說這個以這個提供你之後的一些政策分析的參考這應該是另外一件事情並不是你所有的政策的訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3880.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3906.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
完全百分之百你都會是因為你辦理了這個需求調查分析百分之百是來自於它有一些是因為你看到其他國家的經驗有些你是看到食物的需求就是說你全國性服務政策的訂定應該是更寬廣的你的對象來源更多你不是只是因著這一個需求調查分析而來但是你現在把它改成這樣子你會變成百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3906.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3924.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有做這個調查分析你才會有全國性的政策法規方案的規劃不是這樣子的吧我覺得你們越改越不好啊就是如果是需要做定期的調查分析那這一個可以另外你其實原來在你的第幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3927.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3952.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就是你應該是把研究調查這個獨立成一項不要那個做百分之百的連動我個人不認為你們所有的全國性的政策是來自於就是這個調查你沒調查的時候你就不會有政策嗎不是這樣子的有些時候是地方的反應你的訊息來源資料是很多元性好不好我覺得變成這樣子反而是更狹隘的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3955.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3980.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我講完一遍讓他們回答原來我的在這一條是第一項的第八款有提到說要依照福利跟權益保障法第56條的那個第一項二款行刑如果運用到適當的居托人員照顧家外安置並應該建立相關評估標準跟照顧期間跟教訓訓練方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3981.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4005.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那你這邊本來你的針點這邊本來講說你們會移到第17條裡面可是我們現在看我現在翻看17條並沒有這個條文所以我本來是要列在這邊可是你們說你要移到17條那如果當移到那邊我覺得OK因為我們就是要解決在過去怎麼會有家外安置安置在保姆家可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4006.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4034.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
管理事實上非常的薄弱才會衍生凱凱案的這種狀況所以我們希望能夠強化結果你這邊大家後來又沒有特別去提到這個你們要去做而且我覺得這次在托育服務專法我就特別強調這一塊結果還是沒有看到那你說要按照你版本那你把這一條到底拿哪邊去以上 謝謝來你要等林委員講完再一併回應好不好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4036.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4066.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我要跟王委員澄清一下就是說這個政策要反映調查需求而不是調查是全部政策的依據你做這個調查其實就是要能夠把這個問題反映在政策上去呈現但是並不是說政策全部都聽這個調查的不是這個意思另外就是說比如說你沒有去做調查你不會知道說有定點零拖的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4066.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4087.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們不知道托育的需求是什麼你去做了調查發現定點零托的需求很大那我們就要反映到政策裡面所以我再講一次就是說政策要能夠反映調查出來的需求沒有調查就沒有實證基礎去訂定政策這也是很奇怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4088.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4108.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面並不是說政策全部都聽這個而是你做了這個調查在政策裡面要反映出來所以他們現在這樣改就不對了現在這樣改就會變成是完全是依照這個調查那如果這樣的話就照我們的版本的前面的這個整段的條文就放在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4110.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4128.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們的版本 托盟的版本它上面寫的它本來都放在一起的就中央主管機關應定期辦理托育資源及需求調查公開其統計及分析的結果並具以訂定托育服務政策我們本來的版本是這樣子單獨一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4131.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4142.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這樣子但是他把我們拆出來我們才變成那樣如果像我們寫的另外最後放一個單獨我剛剛念的我們的版本這樣子我們是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4146.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4166.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好來請行政機關同意回答好謝謝委員的指教我想我們大概在第五條中央主管機關掌理的事項我們做做一些修正第一個因為確實是有一些不一樣第一個我們大概就是維持我們原來行政院提到這個版本也參照委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4167.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4196.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
就是中央主管機關掌理的事項第一項是全國性托育服務的政策法規與方案的規劃訂定宣導與推廣及研究這樣子那第二個部分是就是對直轄市縣市主管機關執行托育之輔導協調及監督這樣子那第三項也是維持我們原來的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4196.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4222.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那第四項第五項大概到第六項都是那我們再增列一項就是剛剛委員非常關心就是定期辦理就是依照那個剛剛林淑芬委員這個建議就是定期辦理托育這個需可能不是只有資源啦因為還有別的我們是不是可以直接寫辦理托育需求調查及分析然後並公佈結果這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4225.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4244.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
然後據已定定托育服務的政策獨立成為一項這樣一款對不起你還是沒有回答我的我先把這個對我先把這個就是我們會增加一款這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4247.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4267.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
可不可以再念一次就是我們在這個第六款之下增加第七款就是因為這都是講的是中央主管機關的執掌就是定期辦理托育需求調查及分析然後具以訂定托育服務政策這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4269.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4279.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那我們的公開呢 公開其統計及分析的結果進行調查並公佈結果 據已訂定托育服務政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4282.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4308.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
最後一項就是說應該定期辦理托育需求調查分析那公開其統計及分析的結果並具以訂定托育服務政策好可以好那我們就依照那個剛剛林委員的建議文字好那另外就是林院前委員剛剛提到的這個家外安置的這個部分我們是會放在後面的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4309.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4329.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那所以本來是想說等到我們建議是放在行政院版本第17條之後可是我剛看後面的沒有特別提到17條沒有特別提到因為就把文字我把文字寫我們寫在這裡我念一遍好你念一遍好我念一遍慢著我可不可以我可不可以先講一下月請 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4331.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4354.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你可不可以聽我講一下因為這是我們民間托育的聲音就是說居家托育作為安置服務他們認為保姆不適合作為安置人力的這個居家托育人員的制度定位和工作模式因為家外安置照顧的需求跟保姆的照顧其實他有明顯的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4355.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4365.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那保姆跟家長共同育兒保姆有一定的時間也就是即使是24小時托育也有禮拜六禮拜日要帶回去的那保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4366.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4393.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
在沒有托兒的時候可以休息 因此居家托育的要求他們會要求保母托育時要專注那托育不得由保母家人擔任幫手但安置就不太一樣 因為安置是24小時的全年無休的 全時的所以居家托育原本是作為補充性的照顧但是家長為主力 保母是協助所以都是個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4395.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4412.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
職業這樣子沒有團隊只能靠自己那也沒有喘息案後援那把家外安置交給這個保姆可能並不是很適當所以這個居家托育的是不是能夠排除這個保姆的就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4417.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4427.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為安置是24小時全天候的照顧我完全同意啦我現在我政策我這樣算補啦我們會兩個一定會把它分開就這樣就是說這個確實整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4433.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4455.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那個設置的標準還有關心的完全都不一樣所以我完全同意這個回去我會帶回去就是說這兩個我會跟同仁講就分開就這樣但待會再講一下月井講說應該評估居家托育人員的適任性建議修正程應該評估居家托育人員的適任性及其同住家人的合適性其次就是訪視的機制這個好像也不明確這樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4457.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4481.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
第一個你們要另立一套還是因為現在已經是不可反了是幾乎各縣市都這樣做那你們又一直始終現在安置的量還是隨著少子化照理來講安置量要降低可是安置量事實上是上升可是我們聯合國根本也就是說不主張事實上是在安置在機構裡面所以家內是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4482.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4502.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那現在就是說如果要脫鉤我沒意見可是真的能找到這一群人嗎過去是沒辦法找到技嘉技嘉隨著年紀越大就越而且技嘉事實上是一直往下往下降的那我當然完全同意說你要完全脫鉤可是這個脫鉤如果按照剛剛講是完全只要保姆都不行還是說完 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4503.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4527.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
保母要獨立出來一塊那獨立出來一塊就是說要另外管理還是說今天獨立出來就是說他完全不能照顧一般小孩就只能照顧安置小孩這個要清楚否則的話就會變成說你現在脫鉤然後現在講得好清楚好像要脫鉤可是到時候又還是用保母這一群人他帶一般小孩剛剛淑芬委員講的是說完全不可以去照顧其他小孩就只能照顧安置的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4528.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4554.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這樣子嘛所以你要先講清楚這個概念然後另外一個是始終還是沒有回答我的也就是說今天我的第九款希望你們協助托育人員組織及家長組織一直以來我們都是國小國中高中才有家長組織可是我覺得政府責務龐大應該協力還有過去呢事實上幼兒園有所謂的教保人員甚至教師的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4556.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4573.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
可是始終我們沒有這一塊托育人員的組織我覺得政府應該去扶持可是到現在你們也還沒回應我這一塊以上好 跟委員報告當然先回應第一點就是我們保母照顧家外安置的兒少 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4574.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4598.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
像成如我們剛剛次長講我們大概在政策上面是會要要把它分開那我們目前確實有些縣市我們目前還沒有辦法分開可是他照顧一般家家長把孩子送託跟照顧因為兒虐或不當對待安置的兒少其實他需要的專業知識跟他的照顧的精神其實是不一樣的如果我們現在是混收的這件事情其實長遠來講其實是不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4598.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4621.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以我們也在跟縣市溝通是要把它分開可是這個可能是需要一些時間就是我們的理想是我們照顧一般家庭的保姆就是回到這個登記之而託法的這個部分那如果是他要照顧耳虐的孩子或者是遭受不當對待的這些小孩其實這些孩子的身心創傷是真的是比較多的他跟一般家庭的孩子混在一起其實是不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4621.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4646.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那我們的政策方向應該是長遠來講他應該是要分開只是我們目前跟縣市溝通有些縣市就像林委員講他的資源不夠所以他還沒有辦法可是像在過去凱旱出發生的時候其實我們把收儲場這件事就要脫鉤了好這件事那我們現在都還列管如果是收儲場的案件是在保姆家的這個那都希望他能夠再做調整這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4647.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4664.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以家外安置確實是跟一般家庭孩子的我覺得在居家托育人員這邊最好我們是要分開的因為他需要的訓練他需要的專注可能都是不一樣這件事情所以我想我們的政策剛剛次長有講我們的政策方向是要分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4665.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4693.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
只是他需要一些時間的處理需要各自在部件那第二個問題是說保母他是不是一定是因為寄養家庭他確實是現在比較難收那我們會覺得是保母他仍然可以用保母的資源可是他就是收這樣子的孩子給他的資源應該要比較足夠這件事他不一定是不是一定要納進寄養家庭的系統這個可能要再跟我們兒上組再做一些比較詳細的討論我覺得可是他應該要跟一般家庭的孩子要分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4693.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4721.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
因為那個孩子是24小時都會是在保母家的可是你現行就已經做不到然後過去就一直用辦法所以才會發生凱凱的個性是根本沒有再去管理的所謂的原則或者是辦法或者是指引最後才會釀成那樣子的一個這麼重大的事件發生所以我說你們現在如果不定在這種母法裡面強度法律的強度比較強一點我們會在兒少權法裡面定 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4722.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4744.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
耳燒懸法什麼時候送出來呢耳燒懸法根本已經14年了你說到現在都還沒修那專法事實上是比較快那我等於說那在中間這種假設青黃不接的時候能不能保證不再發生這種狀況否則新北有護苗計畫各縣市也還是景安跟一般安置都安置在保母家 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4745.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4773.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
可是誰在管理誰在有那樣的強度要求目前你們是用那個原則執下縣市運用居托人員來進行安置的這一個原則這原則誰會管所以過去一直才會沒有這樣執行本來那邊原則是講得很清楚說要仿似輔導良好者你才可以來做安置誰有這樣做嗎沒有啊因為為什麼因為基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4774.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4801.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
安置机构安置0到6岁以下小孩子也非常非常的少我们也不主张小孩到安置机构去可是继家一直往下降那你只能是寄托所以你就看安置机构比较多是安置比较大的小孩可是寄托在保姆的时候我没有同意认为说这两个要混在一起可是问题是现行你们就是混在一起才会发生这样的事情然后又没有很好的去管理这一块说 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4801.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4817.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
你安置24小時全年無休的狀態安置在保母家給人家的錢又非常的少所以才會技嘉真的有就是要人家有愛心可是基本上給人家給錢這麼少的時候他們很多搞不好還要墊資 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4818.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4847.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那技嘉當然不會願意做好一般保姆他只好去說那被縣市政府拜託來收安置可是重點他還是要養家活口所以他就會變成有一般的然後再加上你安置桶放在一起所以我也想問雖然今天不是討論這可是如果要脫鉤的話我說不是不同意可是現行你們到底要怎麼做因為持續還在安置那你們有更好的強度嗎我們也不希望再度的又發生像凱凱那樣的憾事 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4848.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4864.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以我要先問這個我才覺得能夠接受說這邊不要去去放要先回還是林委員要問我覺得月琴問的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4866.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4887.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為他覺得不能兩邊都沒有這樣子但是我還是要講就是說至少你們我再講一下這個也是團體托盟的意見就是說這個法處理的是托育但是因為寄養的制度可能就不只是托育了不只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4887.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4908.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那再來就是保姆其實可以轉成這個寄養家庭但這個寄養家庭並不是用保姆這個方式來管理的但我現在講說我很高興聽到行政部門認知到居家保姆跟這個受傷的這個寄養而虐的這種保姆其實是要不一樣要脫鉤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4911.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4935.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
雖然保母的工作型態雖然是一個保母居家照顧而且是適合0到6歲受傷的小孩的型態但因為保母的勞動條件勞動的樣態還是跟真正要收容一個心理受傷的或是寄養而虐的案子的小孩他的需求是沒有完全一致符合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4936.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4964.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但我们这里讲的就是托育服务而不是寄养服务那在这种状况里面我觉得政府的责任在哪里政府责任就是月勤刚才讲的就是说你们一直都没有没有好好正视这个问题然后去督导地方政府要完备这一个安置的大小孩的安置的机构或者是小小孩的这个寄养家庭的量能过去一直都没有做然后也越做越差 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4965.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4979.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以導致大家都覺得說整個社會是不是都倒退倒退路所以在這種狀況裡面這是兩件事但是剛才次長承諾說遭全罰要改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4984.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5012.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
對啦但是你要跟他講清楚啊那我抱歉我再講一下評估不能只是評估居家托育人員因為安置是24小時全天候而且是可能好幾個月好幾個月甚至是全年都無休的這樣子那他就要像家庭一樣的互動的家庭成員一樣所以這種評估這個也是寄養家庭的評估的標準所以我們才建議說應該評估居家托育人員的適任性要 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5013.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5041.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
修改成說評估這個居家托育人員的適任性及其同處家人的合適性那仿事機制是不是不確定的法律用語所以要怎麼執行也是一個問題那像凱凱案在爭執誰是主責的社工的時候因此有關兒童安置的人員資格及相關管理的規範所以也都有發生過爭議嘛所以我們才建議說統一在兒少全法裡面去明定這樣子為家 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5043.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5069.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
但是現在月薪講的問題你怎麼解決先請王委員 好不好請林委員 抱歉剛剛衛福部講的就是兩個一般兒童的托育我們這邊訂的兒童專法是針對一般兒童那特殊兒童弱勢兒童或者是初養兒童有另外是福利體制另外建制一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5070.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5095.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這樣的一個脫鉤我是贊成的因為這樣子也是比較清楚那現在問題是說在你兒少全法提出來的目前的這段期間你們是透過什麼樣的機制讓這一些有需求的孩子你們現在的照顧有沒有問題你們有持續加強一個就是說這一些保姆的資格一個就是說他的這個訪視的頻率你們有沒有增加然後現在遇到的問題是什麼剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5096.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5125.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為剛剛這個妹妹她有講說有些縣市它現在量能是不足的嘛那這個部分你們打算要透過什麼樣的方式你剛有提到一個就是說原來的保姆他如果再加一些訓練他一樣有資格可以去收託但是他就必須接受你們另外一套針對這個安置的這個系統的督導那這個也是一個可解決的方式那這個你們到底現在的這個實施的模式是什麼然後未來定在兒少全法 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5125.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5140.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個方向我是贊成的大家關心的只是說怕現在有空窗期若不是定在這邊 而是到全法院還沒出來現在空窗期你們到底怎麼運作這樣子對好這個可能可以跟委員再講得更清楚一點謝謝那請您的請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5142.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5168.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好第一個我想剛剛講的那個案子我覺得看要放後邊再做討論也可以可是前面先回答的是說我一直在講說要協助托育人員組織及家長組織的成立你們覺得不行的到底原因是什麼因為我希望放進去這是第一個第二個我還是要講等一下後面討論的時候也要去講到你現在就是有些保姆本來就有居家的身分那他有居家身分他本來就可以帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5171.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5198.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們寄養童那他帶寄養童的時候你就會要求他說不可以帶一般小孩沒有啊現行沒有這樣子的一個規定啊就帶寄養童也是可以帶一般的小孩那你以後如果我合法合理的取得寄養家庭的一個資格的時候你是會未來脫鉤的時候你一樣會要求我說那我就是不能帶一般小孩因為我覺得始終最大的問題就是你們給寄家的費用實在是低到不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5199.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5227.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
人家家長送托小孩奶粉尿片事實上是他們家長提供另外有給托育費用我們不是我們一筆錢包山包海包全部那大計計家當然不太可能會願意你要去那他就要有一般兒童的收托的時候他至少能夠做愛心也不能做到人家基本上幾乎都沒有一點費用還要自己去墊支 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5228.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5249.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這樣的狀況裡面那一樣我還是要問的是等下後邊我覺得主題等下可以是說只要回答到我的那個第九款外那其他的我覺得等下再17條之後要討論這條的時候再來討論我還是認為這過度時間你們沒有處理如果我們的兒權法是明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5250.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5268.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
後邊修法也是很長像你看這兒托法這個會期上個會期進來討論到現在還在討論要通過也要大半年的時間這中間我們真的都不希望孩子有任何的事情那真的你們要如果不要放在這邊要清楚的說明你這空窗期怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5269.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5285.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
你做的強度會是什麼因為基本上中央最大麻煩就規定規範政策可是執行的是地方政府你有辦法讓地方政府都按照你們的規準在執行嗎而且那個規準又是法律位階低到不行的狀態裡邊然後出事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5286.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5302.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
可是大家都在罵中央喔絕對不會講地方喔因為中央是制定政策的一個單位啊那最後怎麼會是最後變 可是執行的是地方啊所以這你們要不要想清楚啦好 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5303.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5331.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好謝謝這個林域情委員是好意思提醒我了解非常感謝委員在這個問題的關心啦我其實說的是我進入之後馬上我就先刷我們兒童法還有生權法還有社會救助法我也是專程會推刷我們這個部分弄了我一直在馬上我就弄兒童權法這第一點回應第二點剛才有關於我知道現在濟洋家庭過去我在台中也做過社會協定 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5333.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5360.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
最主要就是我們那裡月清委員所說的對於整個寄養家庭的整個給人家太少這個部分我也會一定會來提高但是現在重點不是這樣這個裡面的很多的部分是地方政府應該安置費用應該要處理所以我們這個部分衛福部這邊會來協調地方政府你趕快給我提高不然不好意思我有一些補助我要扣掉那就是這樣其他的中間的我請美美副署長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5361.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5377.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好跟委員報告大概就是我們先說明這個家外安置運用保姆的這個部分大概我們次長剛好說我們大概就放在建議是放在那個兒少法的修法那目前我們的機制其實剛剛向林委員談到我們現在目前是有原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5378.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5395.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那我們原則其實本來現在的規定當然就是他一定要接受一定的訓練那同時他有一些資格他必須是要經過所謂的適合性大概是他第一個他是要登記合格的保姆那第二個是他有過去沒有違規他才有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5395.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5421.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那當然我想這個部分我們會跟地方再做一些加強那第二個是林月琴委員關心的就是組織就是應該協助托育機構成立這個專業組織的這個部分其實我們是有放在如果這個委員認為是要放在這個耳托法我們是建議放在比較後面的條文了那我們有處理了一些條文的文字我想我可以先讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5422.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5424.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
就是在第38頁 今天會議是第38頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5431.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5451.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那我們建議的文字是各級主管機關應協助機構托育人員成立各級托育人員專業組織協助其訂定工作倫理守則並宣導鼓勵機構托育人員依公會法組織及參與公會那第二項是托育機構應建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5453.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5475.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
機構托育人員參與托育服務及員工權益重要事務決策之機制這是我們行政部門的建議文字以上報告不好意思你38頁跟我們38頁是不是不一樣的所以我們看不到你的那個文字我們的38頁跟你38頁我們就看不到你剛講的那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5499.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5504.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這個跟我的原因還是不一樣這邊是托育人員那我那邊還有一個家長組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5507.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5525.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
對 不是只有工會還有家長組織因為始終都沒有家長組織來為我們的家長的權益跟兒少的權益倡議可是國中 小高中是有的那我認為是要扶持所以我們一直缺幼兒這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5529.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5544.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以才會希望你們能不能也是要協助而且中央層級跟地方還是不一樣為什麼因為地方當然可以去組織各地方的工會這邊解決的是托育人員的工會這一塊可是我們希望事實上是可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5546.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5559.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
在中央的話應該也要做這樣的一個工作站不是規則在地方去執行所以我覺得這一條我蠻堅持的是不是在這邊要放我們的托育人員跟家長組織那個委員的意思是說就像小學的這種家長會的組織是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5575.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5586.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
是像學校的不是說全國家長聯盟對 類似這種還有托育也是一樣地方可以去鼓勵地方的工會可是中央還是要做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5588.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5613.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
因為我們現在很缺的就是比較小的這一塊沒有這樣可是問題是有時候政府開會的時候又喜歡邀家長組織一堆國中小的家長組織他們的小孩都過來講的時候講的東西根本不符合我們自己的幼教的一個需求跟概念所以我認為你們應該只是我想說協助把它入法的話就是你們未來要去推動這件事情主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5621.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5628.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
陳教授委員 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關這一點齁 有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5647.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5654.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
做完做出這件事情好像直接放在中央主管局官的掌理事項可以再討論這是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5662.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5680.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們雖然是有這麼多的托嬰中心,不過我們的托嬰中心的規模其實不是非常大像我們的公共家園大概是只有12人然後另外我們在私立的立案的機構大概是平均大概都是30人收托的我們也不鼓勵收托太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5681.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5706.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
0到20歲的孩子其實他的風險比較大那我們如果政府部門要協助這些家長成立組織因為他跟學校的情況是不太一樣的因為學校的從小學到這個國中他的班級數是多的那他本來就是每個每個教室都會有家長的這個代表然後學校會有家長會那家長會當然自然他可以容易成立一個全國性的這個家長組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5707.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5736.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那如果這邊我們要框到的是我行政部門要協助托嬰的家長成立這個組織這件事還要協助托育人員成立他的組織這件事我想在行政部門在做托育服務裡面我想這個可能也不是我們的這個專長那第二個是他本來人民團體30個人以上就可以主持一個協會他本來就可以依照人民團體法去做立案的這個組織我想我們先做這個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5737.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5753.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
來 你也請委員我覺得我剛剛講的跟學校體制不一樣什麼學校有那個家長會不是我覺得事實上是的確是民間團體我認為事實上政府要去推動因為過去我覺得很多時候政府的 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5755.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5772.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
一些相關的事物像工會這些我覺得地方的我覺得我能接受就是說地方因為有地方的像看台北市有托育人員協會然後呢台中有托育人員協會這個OK那可是中央的還是請問一下你們每次開會邀家長團體邀誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5775.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5792.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
可是這跟家長權益是有很大的關係喔幾乎沒有嘛連我們的托育團體用手指都數得出來你們會找的大概就是額蒙嘛彭婉如嘛然後呢全國性的保母團體嘛那基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5793.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5806.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
也沒有全國性的現在當然有那個拖產就全教產那可能他會來參與可是這些都沒有講來講去也沒有家長的團體知道家長的權益在哪邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5807.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5836.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以我們才會希望說你們否則你不要用協助的話所以我們用協助這個字眼或是說你們要去推廣這件事情不是任由現在沒有一個你開政策會議的時候你根本找不到家長的任何組織來給你們表示意見那讓他們組織可以協助他們去成立所以我要的是這個概念所以我說用協助或者是說你們要用推廣我也都接受可是我就不可能不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5837.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5848.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為幼照法也是這樣子幼照法也是要求是說要協助那個家長和那個教保人員的組織去推廣去協助他們成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5854.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5874.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我那個我知道委員所說的意思確實就是說那個嬰幼兒畢竟小嘛那他的權益看怎麼去確保我們這個現在目前已經有這個服務端他們的這個自我組織現在委員現在最重要就是說那個兒童這邊家長這邊怎麼去那這樣好不好我們是不是用那個推廣兩個字這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5875.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5893.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
因為我覺得你們每次要找業者團體反而不找因為沒有任何家長團體為孩子跟家長的權益發聲那我們是不是就推廣好不好用推廣的方式好不好你問好不好一定跟你講不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5898.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5923.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
不是啦那個林月琴委員要他的期待那個家長的團體基本上講那個是最實際的問題因為早來公部門要去形成政策聆聽的家長的意見基本上是是沒有一個對象對象跟範圍所以他才會想說你們早來都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5924.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5932.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
其實不是加整個團體來表達意見那你還用推廣那就很弱了啦很弱了應該是這麼說啦我是覺得那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5935.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5960.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
社長可以再想一下怎麼樣讓文字變成比較強一點這樣第二個三四五款我覺得是不是有先後順序還有重疊的一些問題文字上你們再看一下好不好三四五款應該有先後順序的問題還有文字重疊的問題是不是一併來做修正好 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5967.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5987.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
先保留 好不好還是你要說五分鐘可以隨時修我們也可以好 你要再想一下所以五分鐘你想不起來就對了確定 一定要超過五分鐘好 可以 好那我們先修一個五分鐘好不好讓他跟大家討論一下文字好 這樣 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6698.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6722.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好 我們繼續開會可以了喔 可以了嗎那文字要不要再給大家看一下委員會這邊宣告我們中午十二點會休息喔中午十二點 下午兩點再繼續開始好 謝謝來 各位委員看這文字帳可不可以一樣叫推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6726.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6745.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
公委員報告我們大概就增加了第七款第七款就是中央的部分就是定期伴侶托育需求調查公開統計及分析之結果具以訂定托育服務政策那第八款就是協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6746.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6770.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好那這個大概是中央的主管的事項那在地方的主管事項是不是委員我們可以建議也搭配著這一條就是第八款我們也在地方的主管事項裡面增加地方也是要協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立那調查托育需求的部分我們就放在全國性來做調查這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6772.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6791.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那地方就不做這個調查因為地方的人口數也沒有那麼多這樣子聯約請問可以吧好 謝謝委員大家再看一下但是那個三四五款我剛剛有提醒是不是有一些有一些疊寵的問題第六第七拉下來三四五啦 三四五六七 看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6802.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6819.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
三四五他現在沒有改啦六七有改可以喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6833.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6846.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好各位如果沒有意見那我們就照行政會在修正的版本通過好謝謝繼續審查第6條修正動議的第16案請行政機關要不要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6864.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6892.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好那第六條的部分委員的建議是要規範縣市定裁罰基準然後另外就是要憑鑒居家托育服務中心還有居托中心的業務執掌跟職責應該要明確工作人員適用消極資格以及新增臨時托育的這個規定那我們行政部門的分析大概是第一個大概就是那個因為裁罰的基準是 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6895.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6908.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們可以把它加進來就是成為地方的這個主管的執掌那我們要加在我們加在第一就是這一款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6913.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6927.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
第8的其他我們就往下移了所以我們增加第8款就是違反本法應處罰處罰完成度裁量基準的訂定加在地方的這個主管機關的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6929.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6951.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那另外就是居托中心的這個評鑑的部分因為我們在兒托法裡面未來的居托中心它其實要執行的是部分公權力的這個部分所以我們在執行公權力的部分大概是不太會是用評鑑我們是用檢查跟督導跟管理的這個部分所以我們建議這個部分是不是不納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6952.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6958.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那另外一個居托中心的這個業務執照我們應該都有一些相關的規定在後面以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6964.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6981.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
來 請陳昭志委員謝謝主席剛剛這邊衛福部有說明應該是那時候我先提出來這個想法就是說因為目前這個直轄市跟縣市政府他是第一線負責去監督檢查跟開罰但是現在依照兒照法的規定有些地方政府在進行開罰的時候他沒有依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6982.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7001.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
情節的輕重次數等去訂定裁罰的基準通常都是會用最低的裁罰沒有進行過真正的加重處罰目前有台中市台北市陸續有在議員的監督要求下有訂定裁罰基準並且對累犯業者進行加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7002.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7025.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以我才請說請教威福部說這樣現象是不是要求應該要求各地方政府要有一致性就是不要一個國家有很多很多的制度財閥基準那現在您是已經明定把它寫進去了原意是如此要依據我們這個模仿要訂財閥的基準這裡是授權嗎就是說你會去訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7029.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7046.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為我們各縣市他還是會有一些我們希望能夠因地制宜可是要求他們自己的縣市他要定一樣的標準不會因人而異因為剛剛你們講的是全縣那我的概念是責任這不是你們權利而是說你要有這個責任去讓大家進來全國支持是 會來 林益勤委 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7054.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7081.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
上次大家有提到因為的確你們現在沒有要去評鑑因為把它拘托中心變成是有公權力不是去評鑑可是也想問的是說那這邊裡面都沒有寫到是說那你們對拘托中心的一些管理的或者是檢查的機制剛剛副署長有講到說有一些管理機制可是在法條裡面並沒有列上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7084.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7112.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以可不可以請衛福部說明一下我們在第四款裡面其實是有就是居托的這個輔導監督跟檢查我們是有訂了那它比較詳細的應該是在後面的是不是有授權的辦法可是副總長這邊寫的應該是對保母你的第四款實際上現在是居家托育服務的登記這個登記就指的事實上是保母管理媒合 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7114.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7129.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
輔導監督跟檢查這個都是針對於保姆並不是針對管理保姆的那個居托中心所以可能要釐清所以你針對居托中心畢竟即便再怎麼有公勤人力還是事實上是委外有各個團體來 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7130.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7159.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那各個團體那個稱之不齊因為每一個有的縣市事實上是拜託人家來執行這個居托中心的那當然我覺得這時候你你如果過去事實上是有評鑑可以去把列的把它去除掉可是你現在要執行公權令你說不要有評鑑那當然也可行可是重點是你對它的規管還是不可以忽略掉啊可是編法條通通沒有列我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7160.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7184.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
跟剛剛說明的好像是不一致以上來 請王正旭委員謝謝主席那有關這一條我們看到的全部都是在寫居家托育那我們剛剛在前面其實有提到一個很重要就是臨時托育的部分所以我們不清楚就是目前所說的托育有沒有包括臨時托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7185.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7198.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那如何才能夠把臨時托育這樣的需求也能夠放在這一條裡面 讓地方直轄縣市在處理的時候 針對臨時托育的部分也能夠距離辦理這邊可以請這個主管機關再說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7205.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7227.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
來請說明來是第一個部分在我先說明剛剛那個林苑群委員剛剛提到的就是我們在地方的這個掌理的事項裡面沒有把拘托中心是地方也要掌理的這個事項列進來那我覺得是應該要列我們想一下文字請同仁想一下文字那第二個部分零拖是剛剛前面那個條文有保留所以我們因為剛剛在定點零拖那邊有做了一些保留我們所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7238.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7256.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以怎樣其實第四檔剛剛有保留是因為定點零拖啦對那王智英委員講的是臨時托育啦對 零拖就是剛剛我們有說明就是不代表是定點零拖對 臨時托育裡面其實定點零拖或者是保姆到家裡面去零拖都是零拖的一種好 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7261.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7289.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我再次發言 其實用意是在於說 因為臨時托育本身 雖然也是托育的一部分 可是我們也知道如果這樣訂的話 到時候針對於臨時托育 不管是訂聯 聯托或者是其他聯托方式 那在處理的部分有沒有造成會因為沒有入法的情形之下 導致在地方機關處理的時候呢 會造成無法確實的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7297.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7313.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
來 請說明如果我們在前面剛剛保留條文如果有把它要列進去我們在這裡就會再增加它的執掌這樣子好那我們現在就是先把那個居家托育服務中心的這個先列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7319.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7341.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們是不是在第三款後面增加第四款直轄市頓浩縣市居家托育服務中心之監督檢查及輔導然後原來的第四款就是順以為第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7350.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7351.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
先把鞭筍剃掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7380.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7400.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以結論是什麼結論就是我們增加在直轄縣市的執掌裡面增加第四款就是直轄市對第六條直轄縣直轄市縣市居家托育服務中心之監督檢查及輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7409.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7417.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
在第六條我們增加一個第五第幾款第四款第四款好第四款這邊我覺得OK好那各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7437.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7458.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們是做這樣調整跟增加第四款定點您拖要不要放到各縣市的這個業務執掌裡面這個我們也想一下好不好定點您拖是不是也要克制於地方政府要廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7459.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7472.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
廣設然後要他們要負責做什麼想一下對這個我們想一下想一下對好想一下那那就先保留還是還是可以馬上想出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7475.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7502.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
因為前面那一條保留還沒想出文字好 那就是應該講說定點零拖我們的定義是什麼那中央要負責什麼地方要負責什麼我們可能在全責分工上還沒有想清楚但現在才發現這個事情很重要對啊 所以我就問他要不要保留但是就是說一般的零拖一般就是保姆的還有這個中心或機構的服務的延伸就照一般的管理就好了但定點零拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7502.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7528.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
連人力都是流動來來支援的然後那個場所是臨時設置的或是不是一個固定的然後連來受託的人都是流動的所以他這一套規範應該是另外要想我們要怎麼分工然後要怎麼樣規範他的安全和品質這樣子所以需要想一下後來那我們先保留好不好好謝謝來繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7532.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7554.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
接下來是第七條第七條委員的建議是要我們釐清諮詢會或審議會的目的性以及成員的組成應該要納入身心障礙團體的代表原住民的代表還有成員有沒有利益迴避的這個設計那跟委員報告我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7554.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7583.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
參照委員的意見我們大概想第一個大概是中央是設中央主管機關應召開托育諮詢會所以中央是托育的諮詢會然後地方是托育的審議會這樣子那另外一個就是身障的團體或原住民的代表我們是建議是不是可以就是如果有相關議題的再邀請他參加這樣子這大概是那利益迴避的這個部分因為行政程序法裡面其實就有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7584.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7609.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
就有對於各委員的利益迴避都有一個原則性的規定所以我們認為在托兒托法裡面可以不列入這個部分以上先做大體的說明詳細的文字我想我們因為有一點文字要修正所以請我們的組長說明一下第七條先說明一下現在是處理林淑敏委員所提的第七條不是院版的第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7612.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7630.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
林委員的第七條我跟各位講一下因為那時候他的第七條是我保留的把林委員的第七條併入在我們院版因為都是談到收費跟代表的這個部分可以嘛就林委員的第七條可以跟院版的第七條就併案來討論啦可以啦好那就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7632.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7651.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
主席我們是不是可以說明一下我們院辦就參照委員的意見我們修了一些文字我們再請陳清惠委員第七條的第一項收費頓耗退費項目及調整原則前面還有一個收費頓耗退費 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7658.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7686.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
然後第二項與調整原則把逗點刪掉然後審定之後面的文字刪除第二項也有頓點的問題收費頓耗退費項目與調整原則審定之那以上做文字的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7688.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7714.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我這邊是想請問因為我們上次審查這一條的時候我們建議說審議會做得太少所以收費基準要讓審議會來討論然後你今天這個新的版本我有稍微看了一下這第一段跟第二段那我第一個問題是說你中央是要設諮詢會地方是要設審議會可是你中央這個諮詢會裡面負責的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7717.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7743.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
很多其實是做審議所以看起來好像重複了尤其是在收費退費項目然後第二段也是在講收費退費項目基準對我會覺得你好像我覺得好像第一諮詢跟審議的權責沒有什麼差別然後第二你中央跟地方做的事情就重疊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7746.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7771.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
可以請主管機關解釋嗎跟委員說明第一項中央設諮詢會就是對於全國的不管是居家托育的一個收退費項目跟調整原則或者是托育機構的一個收退費項目原則上由中央來諮詢專家召開這樣的一個諮詢會議來定一個概括性的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7772.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7799.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那至於實際上地方政府他要召開托育審議會那就他轄內的依參考中央訂的這樣的一個收退費項目跟調整原則去訂定他自己轄內的一個收退費項目跟調整原則原則上是不太一樣因為畢竟地方政府他的一個狀況啊還有他的一個經濟的一個狀況也是不太一樣收退費也不太一樣那像所 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7802.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7815.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
等一下 請說陳委員沒有 我大概理解了他的意思是說中央的諮詢會訂的是收費的原則然後地方的審議會訂的是收費的標準跟價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7817.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7842.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好 請您說我本來是想再解釋清楚一下因為這個是民間托盟的版本就是說中央為了顧及到勞動的權益和勞動的條件其實是希望要有一些基本的品質但是中央我們知道地方的差異很大所以我們只訂出一個Range然後訂一個原則真正的價格還是交給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7843.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7865.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個政府去定因為地方政府還有地方議會可以把關所以就讓他們就因地去質疑這樣子但是中央定原則才能確保有基礎的這個勞動條件能保障那另外呢我這個改章我沒有我已經可以接受但是最後一個就是說因為我們還是有議決的事項就是說我們會定一個參考的上下線啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7866.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7893.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那我們訂出收費退費的這個項目那其實基本上還是有一個議決的一些事情在裡面所以我還是想我們是不是諮詢會因為諮詢會三個字真的是太像太像詢問的屬性了所以我們是不是能把它改成諮議會然後地方是審議會最後由地方決定所以是他們去審議通過的標準收費標準但我們政策上還有個諮議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7896.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7901.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
比較不會難聽 像叫來 像跟人家諮詢而已該罪之議會啦 還是有意決的嘛好來 可以了喔來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7911.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7937.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
谢谢赵伟那个针对第7条因为我现在算是使用者之一这个我想问一下就是这个费用的订定跟审议或者是资议反正就是这个价格订定的部分有没有说多久一定要召开一次还是说这订了之后就订下去因为我看条文里面好像没有针对多久要来滚动检讨一次针对这个会议多久开一次的部分好像没有明定出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7938.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7956.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
要不要明定或是说多久要一次要一个调整的机制不然有时候物价调涨或者是基本薪资的调涨等等的都会影响到工作的权益还有说影响到家庭我们要支出这笔费用家庭的权益所以我觉得在时间表上面是不是应该要把它明定进去以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7959.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7972.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好謝謝這個應該在質疑審議的組成辦法裡面你們要去明定出來嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛對請說明還是在說明裡面你們會去會去表述清楚第13條是針對於拘托的收費是有說要每兩年定期檢討那對於托育機構好像目前是沒有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7997.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8002.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
就是機構目前我們是沒有訂啊那保姆的那個部分居托人員我們是有說沒兩年那機構要不要訂要不要訂一個時間還是都不用我們我們檢討的時候他們不會連動嗎那我們訂這個要幹嘛如果我們訂出來就最低的可能地板就往上提高了那他們不用跟著連動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8029.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8046.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
自然本來就要了吧你說我們的Range定程說23000到38000你本來是可能21000到35000你應該自然也可以連滾動了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8062.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8065.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們就增加一個就是定期檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8070.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8092.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
抱歉 赵伟请说明你们刚刚讲是第13条是不是如果你们第13条就提到了只有居家托育服务收费部分但是在外机构的部分好像就没有但是对家长来说他们在决定要送或不送或是怎么样处理这个事情的时候其实他是会一并考量的不会只考虑单一个项目去所以如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8093.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8112.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
檢討的話就像剛剛淑芬委員所說的就是應該是連動的一起去討論才對不能只有訂定一個那個居家托育服務而已吧是不是再加一句按照委員的指示我們再加對 我們再加一句然後就是把剛剛說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8120.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8145.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
加在第二項可以嗎那個後面那個省定之逗點我再念一次文字好中間的那個並先不用我覺得這個字眼一會看就覺得好像不用你看中央要訂出一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8146.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8167.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
收費的原則 項目還有調整的原則還有這個收費退費其他相關反正中央訂一個Range兩年一次那地方要做什麼地方要依據中央所訂定的收費退費項目和調整原則去審定所以其實他已經連動了 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8169.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8191.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我也認為不用加 為什麼因為以前 因為有時候浮動很大你反而定期兩年然後中間如果中間有一些要調整的時候反而事實上是動不了因為以前我們在地方都很快按照一些他們目前現在收的甚至孩子量的這些去做考量所以就會有時候事實上是搞半年就是會去討論它是至少兩年啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8192.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8215.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
對我意思是說至少兩年要動一次當然中間不是叫兩年才能調是說至少兩年要檢討一次概念是這樣子還好現在是說這個好像不用增加因為地方就必須要依據中央的調整而跟著調整了下面那一項顯然就是有機構的費用在27條也有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8244.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8244.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8246.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8260.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
委員我們說明一下就是我們剛剛因為第一個是那個我們本來中央的是托育的諮詢會改成諮議會所以我們後面的第三項也要並同調整文字諮詢會改成諮議會第四項也是諮詢會要改成諮議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8265.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8292.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那第二個部分是我們市居托人員是規定應製第13條行政院版本第13條是至少每兩年要調整這個就要檢討那自然中央的這個資議會自然是因為我們中央的資議會會討論的是整個托育就是居家托育跟托育機構的收退費的項目跟一些原則的部分自然會在這個會議裡面就會討論這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8294.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8321.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以它是連動的因為我們在中央的資議會裡面的任務裡面其實就是有訂定居家托育的收退費項目及調整原則還有托育機構的收退費對 所以托育機構會在中央的資議會裡面也會被討論那地方會依據中央討論的結果來制定它的價格這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8325.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8347.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
收賄可能就兩年至少兩年檢討一次嘛對不對這個是應該沒問題連動啦剛剛黃委員問的應該是兩件事情第一件事這個收賄的事情應該法律諮詢就有明確了啦另外一個是多久開一次會因為開會不是只有在講這個收賄的標準而已啦那我是說在竹章城裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8349.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8354.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
沒辦法裡面是不是可以去明定出來就審議會還是質疑會多久得開一次會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8359.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8362.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
跟委員說明不管是中央的托育之議會或者地方的托育審議會原則上我們都會訂要點來做處理那在要點裡面就會訂幾年來做那個成員的一個邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8388.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8415.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
對啦 所以我特別這樣講啦要不要再說明啦 要不要再補充啦好 黃委員這樣可以啦齁可以啦齁 OK 好 謝謝好 那各位針對第七條林署委員的版本跟現在的版本 並案討論然後修正後的條文草案各位看有沒有其他意見是來 請陳召集委員謝謝 請教一下如果改成資議會是很OK的那下面的所有的諮詢也要改成資議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8416.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8438.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
全改了後面那個下面那個開發諮詢調協調之意宣導開發訂定是那上面那因為我在看這邊沒調整有我們剛剛有說明下面要並同調整螢幕上還沒好那要調整這裡還是諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8445.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8452.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
他的任務還是諮詢可是委員會才是叫做資議會這樣子 任務還是諮詢會議委員會的名稱叫資議會任務負責被諮詢還有其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8473.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8485.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
沒有了沒有 那我們文字就照這樣來修正好 那我們第7條還是民主委員跟行政院的版本並案討論就是依照行政院版本在文字在修正後通過好 謝謝來繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8489.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8508.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
接下來大概是有林淑芬委員有提到的這個林淑芬委員是第13條 王玉銘委員是48條 顏寬恆委員是48條等的那我想大家關心的大概是要求家長應該要參加親子活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8508.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8531.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
然後對那另外有提到的是對於這個不利處境的家長會不會有壓力不宜強制那另外也規範了這個家長的責任的宣示性而且沒有罰條那可以斟酌這個必要性那還有就是針對於托育服務的托育人員兒童家長主體的三者 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8532.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8551.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那這個條文的目的是要科與家長應盡的義務雖然沒有罰則但是專業從業人員可以依照本條請家長配合的這個條文的部分那原來我們行政院的版本的條文是沒有這一條的那我們的建議是 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8553.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8566.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
可以參採各委員的意見我們增加了那只是調次的部分我們可能要到時候整個版本的編排要做一點調整這樣子那我們把條文也說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8569.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8587.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
是 谢谢委员的条文那我们中整了各位委员的一个版本我们的文字在荧幕上就是儿童支法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人应依托育书面契约规定缴交托育相关费用 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8587.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8610.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
及提供預防接種資料與兒童有特殊身心健康狀況時應告知居家托育人員或托育機構必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料那第二項是兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人這邊要多一個逗點應盡量配合參與托育機構所舉辦之輕職活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8614.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8640.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
及因受託需要協助兒童特殊需要舉辦之相關個案研討活動那上次第一輪審查的時候因為委員對於我們要求家長的一些強度有所保留認為家長可能他也有時候沒有辦法去配合所以才在第二項的部分著作一些文字的調整跟修正那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8643.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8669.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
請澄清衛委員這邊有講到說會請法定代理人就是家長提供健康資料預防接種資料給托育機構但我是希望建議衛福部應該針對這個條文訂出一個健康告知的範本因為家長也許他不知道哪些東西是需要讓機構或者是這個保姆知道的就是比如說你可以用勾選的 明訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8670.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8699.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
一定要告知他有沒有高風險的癲癇啊嚴重心臟病啊產痘症啊食物過敏啊而不是讓他自由行政你會有個版本嗎有跟委員說明我們現在托育中心的定型化契約範本應記載及不得記載事項裡面的一個附件就是兒童的健康狀況的一個情形都有勾選的那個項目深入委員所提的那種健康狀況都有列舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8700.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8722.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
原本你就會再把他帶到新的這個托育專法的執法裡面嗎他本來定型化契約就要簽了好所以家長就要提供謝謝抱歉我再有一個小小的意見就是說我們都知道說兒童的法定代理人應該要來參加盡量來參加我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8726.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8747.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
不管是為這個案研討或者是說所辦的輕職活動但我們想在苛責政府的責任在裡面所以我在想說各級主管機關隊友 特殊身心健康狀況兒童的法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應主動提供資源協助他們 協助之 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8750.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8776.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
就是說因為這些是框在身心障礙的小孩那他們的家長對自己的孩子本身也應該有責任以外但我們希望主管機關對於這樣的孩子的代理人或者是說實際照顧這些孩子的人也應該要主動去提供資源來協助他們這樣子其實宣示一個政府對這樣的小孩的照顧的這個投入 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8777.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8780.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
和主動的這個服務的概念好跟委員說明因為我們這一條的主體看起來是因為第一項第二項都是兒童的法定待人或是依照顧之人那委員剛剛提到的那個比較是各級主管機關所以我們而且各級主管機關我們本來在機關的權限裡面就在就應該要做這件事所以我們沒有把它列在這裡以上說 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8806.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8831.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
沒關係因為機關的權限都已經有了既然機關權限都有這個職責了那我們是不是也是放上去他可以確定我們宣示這個法律裡面對於這樣的兒童的照顧的這個重視的程度所以我們就各級主管機關對於這樣的父母或是實際照顧的人都應該主動提供資源協助再加強強化一下就好了好請王議員回 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8834.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8863.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我想這一條當時我們提出來主要的確就是希望針對孩子的法定代理人或實際照顧之人他也有一些責任其實應該要跟這個提供出來所以這一條的法例比較是針對孩子的法定代理人跟實際照顧兒童之人應該要做的事情那剛剛淑芬委員講的那個那個應該是政府其他本來政府對於其他有特殊需求的孩子就有責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8864.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8870.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那我是覺得放在這一條這個法醫上面這樣可能會有點混淆可能可以放在其他的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8873.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8898.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
就是林淑芬委員剛剛講的這一條如果要我們可能是要放在第四條因為我們在第四條的第三項就是第三項講的是政府對於離島偏鄉原住民地區因為經濟身心文化族群而有協助需求的要優先提供適當的托育服務那我們是不是如果要我們就是還有就是提供資源把它加在這裡可能會比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8901.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8918.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
對 但是因為我們在講對於這個特殊身心狀況的兒童的話如果是強調對特殊身心狀況的兒童的話那就是放在這裡那我是覺得雖然前面都在講他的家長有什麼責任要配合這個托育的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8919.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8940.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
要來做但是我想主管我的意思是說其實身心健康有問題的小孩的家長其實是很辛苦的而他們也需要得到政府的支援支持的所以就放在這裡是為了表達這種概念但主體上沒有應該是看得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8940.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8962.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
法律在看的人看到這個身心有問題的小孩然後就看到這裡不是只有家長有責任我們放在這裡是說我們看這個法好像說我這麼弱勢我要去上班你要叫我來顧這個小孩參加這個活動其實我們是希望這裡顯示出一個政府是有配套的立法的人也知道這個社會的困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8963.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8979.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
立法的人也看到這個社會的困難所以立法的人其實有負責任的要求政府要克制政府要拿出誠意來幫助他們的如果放在這裡這樣是比較完整的一個概念跟委員報告我們其實第四條其實它就是有因為經濟生形 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8980.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9008.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
他不是只有原住民所以你是對廣泛的而言所以我身心其實就是喊掛了因為我們這邊也沒有特別寫對身心障礙就是特殊需求或者是第四條的文字就是我們建議文字是可以加再加一些應優先提供適當托育對啦我知道但是我的講的意思你可能聽不懂就是說你看我父母為什麼要來學校說規定我強定規定我一定要來你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9009.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9026.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
而託罰第幾條就是在這裡規定但他看到這個規定的時候家長看到這個規定會至少會看到裡面寫到政府有責任要照顧啊政府有責任啊他不用再去翻到第四條因為家長不會再翻到前面去看完整整部法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9027.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9045.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
用這一條法律的人家長不會再去看前面的法律所以放在這裡是可以讓家長知道說那你要求我家長要有照顧的責任那你政府的責任也要跟著進來就是說小孩是家庭的也是國家的這樣那個概念放在第四條的意義就不一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9046.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9069.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
第四條是講針對托育資源的提供但是這裡不是喔這裡是講的是托育之後才有的問題托育之後產生的問題那國家其實我們會來協助你家長的是代表國家要來協助你這個家長的所以身心健康的小孩是家庭的也是國家的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9072.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9099.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好 請王智勳委員 完了之後再請王玉敏委員謝謝主席 我會贊成林淑恩委員的講法還有希望為什麼要放在這一條的具體的理由因為第四條基本上是比較廣泛型的那並不是針對於我們希望在這一條所要強調的當這個兒童有比較特別身心狀況的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9101.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9115.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
他需要放在這個地方比較清楚的告訴國人說如果這個兒童有特殊狀況的情形之下呢其實我們相關的單位應該要主動的提供資源來協助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9116.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9139.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這概念上還是不太一樣那這一條如果是放在這個部分的話呢他可以更有宣示性而且這個能實質上來協助到這個有身心狀況特殊需求者因為第四條講的是比較屬於全面型而且他不會針對於身心狀況有特別需求的情形下所要提供的一些法案的內容以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9143.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9161.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好 那請說好 那我們是不是就是加在我們行政院擬定的版本的第二項的後面了就是舉辦之相關個案研討活動逗號各級主管機關應主動提供資源協助之這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9173.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9197.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
所以他還是 你們現在是要來黃委員 黃委員完之後再換黃委員 抱歉各級機關對法定代理人或實際照顧的人應主動提供資源協助資格否則各級主管機關要提供給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9201.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9203.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
黃琳好嗎 不好意思 王媛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9204.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9230.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我覺得剛剛那個衛福部有講第4條的部分你們可以再修正文字嘛對不對就是說針對已經受託剛剛其實大家一直在癥結說已經收託之後會不會再針對特殊的孩子提供相關的資源那我個人是覺得因為看法是要看整部法就是說我們在每一個法條其實都有他這個法條最主要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9231.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9254 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
目的是要做什麼事情那這邊講的是家長的責任那前面第四條講的是政府對於弱勢或特殊需求孩子的責任那如果是第四條沒有講清楚我就建議在第四條我們文字把它修正的更清楚要不然如果是這樣子的修方式我就擔心說我們會很多跌床架我就講過了然後再講一遍就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9254.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9274.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
就只是因為擔心說沒有看到法條但修法我個人還是認為是整部法的概念我們每一條法我們定的都有它的目的那不應該是重複就是說應該就是以清晰為原則所以我個人還是主張說應該是回到第四條如果法例不夠清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9275.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9292.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
沒有去宣示剛剛淑芬委員特別提到的我們針對特殊需求的孩子政府的責任跟角色在哪裡那應該是回到那一條那一條都是你政府的責任就把它寫清楚就好那我覺得這樣子每一個條次會比較清晰不會跌床架屋這是我的建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9294.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9309.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好謝謝來請黃委員再換林業景委員再換林淑媛謝謝好謝謝昭偉其實我的意見其實跟黃委員一樣就是說其實這個法律條文裡面我覺得要明確一點明確化他的責任因為第四條如果本身就是在定義政府的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9310.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9331.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那如果觉得看到我们现在讨论这条文就政府的事情做不够那应该把这个做不够部分再回去放到第4条里面的明确政府到底应该提供什么样的资源跟责任那第5条不是第5条我们现在讨论这个不知道方案哪有条文这个条文的本身他的目的就是针对法定代理人也就是家长就是这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9331.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9352.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
这个家长他应该要进到什么样子他做什么事情所以他做事情定义完之后如果后面又去跟他说那剩下的这个个体主管机关要主动提供资源协助资那如果个体主管机关没有提供资源协助资的话他是不是不用做了如果有些比较调皮的家长会想说你没有提供我协助我这些资源所以我没办法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9353.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9377.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
会变成这样子所以我觉得说第四条跟这一条如果不知道放哪里你干脆把它放在四之一或怎么样我不知道但是我觉得家长的责任跟政府的责任要把它分开来去定义当然整部法这样才会比较完整才不会前面讲了后面又讲那是不是后面有其他的其他单位有责任的时候又要把前面政府责任再带进来所以以上是我的想法如果主管机关 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9379.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9404.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
如果这样修法大家讲几句话就变形容词放那么多形容词进去我觉得法的这个文字太我个人认为法还是要明确一点那简洁一点那一目了然把大家各自应该要处理的状况讲清楚而不是不断的在重复在讲同一件事我就不知道哪里重复了我很不客气的讲我在这里省了这么多个月我不知道我们这里跟哪一条重复你为什么这样子扣我们帽子说我们是形容词 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9405.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9430.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
為什麼說我們重複呢第四條講什麼第四條在講說政府對處於離島偏遠及原住民地區或經濟身心弱勢的人要提供適當的托育服務而這一條在講什麼你們在第四條裡面有講說離島的家長 偏遠的家長 原住民的家長你們在必須一定要克責喔要告訴我們你們有什麼需求然後你們辦活動一定通通都要來你們有嗎 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9432.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9440.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這裡講的是說身心有問題的小孩的家長為什麼要特殊寫這一條為什麼要寫這一條法律為什麼你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9442.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9451.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
為什麼你知道嗎當初我們在審的時候都講過你知道嗎你不知道那你在這裡講我們說我們是形容詞這裡講的是說因為實務上真的遇到這種問題所以需要訂這一條法律來釐清責任然後在這裡克責父母的責任我們在這種狀況裡面他是收拖以後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9463.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9492.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
收拖以後那我們希望對於這樣弱勢這特別它不是一般的弱勢而已你要求家長這麼強度的責任那你政府也要給資源進來我的意思是這樣子而第四條講什麼第四條講的是抽象型的普遍型的第四條才是形容詞才是概念而已第四條放在第四條都是抽象型的是形容詞是概念放在這裡是具體有作用的作用法 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9492.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9518.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
第四條像是基本法的概念而已好了蘇貝爾我們大家是在討論因為你們先羞辱我們我的版本我的版本老實說不是我個人的意見是後面所有第一線從業的人員在托盟兒童托育聯盟裡面他們整合出來的意見是第一線的工作人員看到的問題他們看到問題以後他們認為體制上他們覺得怎麼設計比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9522.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9537.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
不代表我一個人而你在這裡說我們是形容詞我們在這裡跌床駕屋你說我們在這裡訂一些沒有用的法律條文我當然生氣我不是為我自己生氣不是為我自己的版本生氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9538.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9561.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我為你們對於這樣子不了解不懂然後對第一線的人這樣子羞辱而訂出來第一線的人他們建議的條文你這樣羞辱我們而生氣好了 淑芬委員我們現在在討論是說應該要訂在這邊還是第四條因為剛剛主管機關也有講嘛第四條也可以修正文字嘛我們可以兩個版本就是一起來看啦不要生氣啦大家好好來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9563.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9587.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我就說第四條因為第四條你沒有叫離島的人沒有叫原住民的人說你的家長要有什麼強度這麼高強度要求人家家長來配合對聲音障礙小孩為什麼這樣子因為講的這麼具體是因為他們發現很多實務面的問題包括罕見的疾病他沒有告知因為告知了人家就不要人家就不要幫你顧小孩了嘛那你跟你告知了以後他的確不要的時候那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9588.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9608.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那罕見疾病或身心障礙的家長他們那些家長就要上班你強迫他們一定要來他要怎麼辦他要怎麼來你政府要給資源啊我才宣示說這一條要有配套是政府要有責任不是小孩的家長有責任而已國家要責任特殊責任進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9609.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9631.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
可是你離島偏鄉原住民小孩家長你不會這樣子要求他他是抽象型的基本法的概念是第4條而作用法的概念這裡是很強度的作用法強制他要來那你當然是要配套進來是這樣子而那些家長你叫他看你整部法律他只會問說為什麼一定要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9632.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9662.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
他怎麼會去看 拿整部兒童托育服務法來看呢不可能嘛那些家長怎麼會看整部法律 不可能嘛原木求魚嘛他看到這一條學校和機構通知他說你一定要來根據這一條那家長他的法律的可及性你要讓他看到其實家長會說家長不是只有家長有責任而已國家也有責任立法律的人已經清楚寫在這裡了我們立委就是要求國家也要有責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9663.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9686.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
謝謝 謝謝 來 藝術委員補充我們就處理 好 來我覺得衛福部可以講一下因為既然是個案研討就不會是活動通常個案研討大家都是會議可是你們用活動比較想說到底個案研討還有什麼其他的狀況嗎否則為什麼用活動這兩個字那我也同意淑恩委員提的前面第四條講的事實上是很大的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9687.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9709.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這邊很清楚的是你要法定代理人配合這麼多事情可是資源又不給到位那他後續怎麼去做處理反而會變很不清楚反而在這邊寫的話是相對的事實上是清楚讓人家知道說我家長配合了可是後邊沒有資源的話我當然也做不了事可是在這邊明定政府應該要給什麼樣的一個資源以上好 陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9713.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9736.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
主席我們剛剛在討論的應該不是說內容有什麼欠缺是一個就是在什麼最適的位置把這些觀念帶進來非常重要那我不好意思那個林書緯您是很資深我現在再看一下您第13條因為您第13條修正動議33頁這邊你一開頭就說兒童是法定代理人或實際教育長因履行下列義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9737.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9764.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那我的確作為一個非常之前不好意思就是我來讀這個法條的時候就這一條應該是都在談兒童法令待人實際照顧的人都要履行這個部分那政府的責任各級主管機關對於前項加在這個位置我真的讀起來感覺有一點點就是跑出一條跟這個一開頭開宗明義講的話就是有一點點違和 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9765.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9779.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是這個內容是非常的重要因為對爸爸找寮兒童等等這個需要給他非常多的這個特別的協助所以我個人老實說我個人覺得如果用法的性質或說王一鳴有用的法義的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9780.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9797.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個內容大家沒有人反對就是說大家沒有人反對但是那個位置好像就從一開始讀在那個法條裡面從開始讀第一條第一項的時候就覺得好像下面這個位置好像可能有更好的位置更好的地方可以放置不好意思 謝謝因為這是兩個委員的提案的草案就王委員跟林委員是不是顯示機關有要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9811.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9833.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
餵福部我請他解釋那個活動這兩字他這個齁 這個因為你還 對 活動上面叫親子活動下面叫個案研討活動那是不是親子活動跟個案研討活動各級主管機關都應主動提供資源協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9840.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9855.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
沒有 通話個案研討大概不會是活動所以我們加一個頓豪因為有時候我們針對特殊的人會開個案研討來討論怎麼協助他那另外也可能會有活動對 那你就加一個頓豪否則很怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9869.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9895.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
請說明就我們行政部門來講一般我們在體力裡面會是把同樣的主持的事情放在一起所以剛剛有建議是說如果是各級政府機關要協助是放在第四條裡面我們是覺得是它其實也不是只有原住民地區因為我們後面其實第四條的後面的條文是因為經濟身心其實身心裡面就含了 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9895.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9912.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
是特殊兒童或者是文化我們如果是放在第四條的話我們就建議是極主動我反對個人覺得第四條就是一個抽象型的概念一個基本法的概念而我們這裡就是要講國家國家的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9915.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9928.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我不知道為什麼你們這麼那個主持就不一樣了為什麼一定同一條裡面不能有兩個以上的主持嗎讓他們講完啦書分會員讓他們講完你們把修正的文字就是比較清楚的陳述出來好不好給會員看一樣休息溫中好謝謝而且第四條的主持是托育服務也不是政府我們這裡的主持是政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9945.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9951.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
第四條的主持是托育服務也不是政府 騙笑欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10459.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10475.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好我們繼續開會那有沒有修正的版本可以好來主席我們秀一下我們剛剛修正的文字就是我們增加在第三項這樣子這是第七條嗎 第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10479.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10493.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
調文我們要順一下好就是我們增加在第三項就是各級主管機關對前項兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應主動提供資源協助之請問委員這樣可以嗎可以前兩項還前項 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10507.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10535.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
對 前項 對 沒錯好 可以我再說一次其實我們這條就是希望說這個讓這個放在這裡讓這些身心障礙的小孩的家長他看法律的可敬性也會比較高一點那他也會看到國家的責任法律的可敬性這點是很重要的他不是一個整體的宣示而已他在這裡就明確規定了謝謝好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10537.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10552.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
如果沒有 這個調次要就是我們到時候要順一下看放在哪裡比較適合好那這樣還是 剛剛林月琴委員剛剛提到的我們就是再加一個就是個案研討燈號活動這樣子 我知道那前面我們在標點符號做一點調整原則通過了那調次就授權我們這個議事組來做調整了好謝謝那我們繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10568.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10582.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
接下來王玉美委員跟閻寬委員等非常關心到兒童健康的這個條文行政院這邊我們大概是在第一個是剛剛前面就是有一些要備的資料我們其實放在剛剛的條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10584.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10612.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那第二個是我們在行政院版本的53條裡面對於拘托跟托育機構也要協助做一些這個衛生保健的這個宣導那另外委員也很關心個資的這個問題我們也會在我們的這個行政院版本的54條裡面其實有一些個資的保密的義務還有就是預防接種的資料提供給這個托育機構這個我們剛剛有在第一議款裡面有明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10613.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10622.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那我們在定型化契約裡面也都會有把它條列式的列出來要提供哪一些的資料的這個部分我們有參裁委員的建議 以上做說明好 王委員可以接受了所以這我們就不予採納好 謝謝接下來繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10633.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10657.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好那接下來的是王育民委員跟顏寬恆委員等委員的提案是他們是第10條就是兒童滿兩歲前三個月要提供將轉嫌到教保服務機構的這個部分那我們是認同那我們會在行政院版本的第21條的說明欄裡面會陣列說明一定要做好這個轉介 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10659.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10682.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好 王委員可以接受我們就不採納好 那接下來也是王育民委員 顏寬恆委員等的提案就是第十一條就是希望能夠增加需要協助兒童的能夠有一些適當的補助的部分那我們在行政院版本的第九條第一項已經有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10683.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10698.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 還可以接受 一樣我們就不予採納 繼續那接下來是第12條就是對於這個托育人員的這個賠利的這個部分我們也是在行政院版本的第5條第6條都有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10699.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10713.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好不予採訪可以接受了謝謝好那接下來是第10委員的第13條的是那個增加互助式托育機構跟公共化居家托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10715.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10733.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
服務者的健康檢查跟意外責任保險的這個部分那由於這個部分是我們會就是因為他涉及到經費的這個補助我們原則要尊重地方主管機關因地制宜的這個規劃可以接受我建議一樣不予採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10734.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10761.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們繼續審查就是林淑芬委員所提的第15條接下來是林淑芬委員等所提案的第15條那主要是談到的是中央應該要訂定居家托育服務中心規標準一致的處理原則那另外也是要考慮考量相關辦理事項法制作業費時那是不是可以採用行政規則的要點或者是處理原則的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10762.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10789.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那我們行政部門的考量是因為我們未來對於居家托育服務中心的屬性已經是行政機關委託做部分公權力的這個轉移所以它已經是我們建議就是它不會是要辦理評鑑可是對於它相關的這個業務的其他的內容我們這個是剛剛我們監督檢查跟輔導我們剛剛其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10791.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10816.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
剛剛有說明了監督檢查及輔導不得規避妨礙或拒絕那這些監督檢查輔導的這一些應遵循的事項要由中央主管機關定制這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10819.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10845.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這是講地方政府嘛但是就是說那些監督檢查輔導地方政府各行去監督檢查輔導這些居托中心可是因為標準不一致然後輔導出來一樣合格可是品質可能會不一那所以我們才想說中央應該訂定居家托育服務中心的標準一致的處理原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10849.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10876.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這就是中央應該定出這個標準一致的處理原則那我們是不是可以再加一個前兩項的監督檢查輔導及其他相關應遵循事項由中央主管機關定之對因為很常就是這個地方政府定的跟那個地方政府定的不一樣我們是要克責中央必須要有這個定出應遵循事項的責任這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10890.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10910.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
來學生機關請說明好那我們就增列第三項這樣子好那第三項就是前兩項監督檢查輔導及其他相關應遵循事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10922.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10937.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
主席 來 請說我覺得這一條因為未來是講執行公權力所以不評鑑如果評鑑當然就是委由專業團體可是現在變成有的縣市也才一個拘托中心或者甚至兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10939.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10955.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那現在連監督怎麼會事實上我覺得你放監督坦白講專業機構去監督很怪吧你說檢查還勉強或甚至輔導還可以甚至這個是公權力的時候我認為應該監督檢查都不應該是專業團體應該是自己要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10963.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10986.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
專業團體能做的就是輔導否則是牽扯到公權力專業機構有辦法有公權力去監督跟檢查我覺得這是非常怪的一件事情而且又不像托嬰中心這麼多家可能有個縣市可能三四百家這個就只有台北市最多也才12個行政區裡邊搞不好委託五六個單位那你怎麼會是要讓專業機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10989.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11009.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那還有什麼公權力可以去所謂的監督檢查而且這檢查的不一致性也有可能很高輔導我就同意輔導他能不能更進步可是我不認為應該要監督跟檢查要放在可以由專業機構這我相當不同意以上好來 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11023.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11038.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對那個委員剛剛提到就是說因為居托中心他是已經未來是要執行部分公權力嗎應該縣市政府自己直接的監督跟檢查那輔導是可以委託專業團體是好這個我們可以接受我們做文字的調整來可以馬上調嗎這家縣市主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11069.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11076.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
中心進行進度檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11112.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11124 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
委員我們修正一下文字這樣子那個第一項的文字直轄市頓浩縣市主管機關應對居家托育服務中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11126.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11132.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
進行檢督及檢查逗點但得委託由專業團機構團體輔導之但不用並得委託專業機構盾號團體輔導之 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11156.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11156.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11194.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11222.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
來各位這樣文字在修正有其他意見嗎應對居家服務中心進行監督及檢查並得委託專業機構團體輔導之監督檢查輔導及其他相關應遵行實驗室辦法由中間主管機關定時好各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11225.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11236.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
沒有 沒有 那我們就依照這個林署委所提的文字所提的文字 討案啦 文字在做修正那調適 就授權議事組來做調整來通過 好 謝謝繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11243.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11266.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好 接下來大概是林月群委員還有林淑芬委員還有陳金輝委員 劉建國委員跟張雅玲委員 黃婕委員等對於我們就是相關的條文大概是有幾個抱歉 剛才併德委託啦好 OK 可不可以這樣過呢要開車要開那麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11270.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11293.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
已經過緊忙了 你還要再叫他回來來 好來 繼續來所以關心的是地方政府辦理居托人員檢查的不經事先的通知還有居托的檢查是不是可以取代現在的訪視輔導以及增列公寓大廈管理人員不得拒絕訪視人員進去做檢查的部分還有就是居托中心的這個評鑑報告應該要公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11296.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11322.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那剛剛居托中心我們剛剛有提到他將來是部分公權力的這個定位所以不會辦評鑑那第二個部分大概是委員建議是公益大廈的管理人員不得拒絕的部分那我們在條文裡面就是因為考慮到其實是任何人都不能拒絕那所以我們是把它改成是就調整為是任何人的文字那另外就是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11326.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11346.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
剛剛評鑑的部分我們剛剛已經有說明那另外就是對於居托中心的人居托人員的評鑑考量到就全國的居家托育人員有兩萬三千多人其實我們是有一些困難的部分主要是因為居托人員他在家裡通常他登記這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11349.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11363.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
拿到證書之後他是一個人在家裡照顧小孩那我們通常憑藉由委員進到家裡會對於現場會做一些觀察跟提問我們又要求這個居托人員要專心托育所以委員進到 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11364.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11382.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
家裡面去做現場的勘察其實會影響到照顧小孩此外呢是會有感染管控這樣子的問題所以我們現在對於居托人員在家裡照顧小孩其實我們有蠻嚴格的一些規定的部分所以我們建議是還是用這個就是可能對於居托人員做評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11383.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11400.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
在我們行政部門在地方的執行上其實是會有相當的困難那另外委員也建議居托人員將來的違規是會有一些處罰跟祭典的這個機制那我們會在這裡做一些加強那這個在後面的條文會做一些報告跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11404.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11428.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那個第二項為什麼後邊會寫成這樣就是說辦理居家托育人員的登記管理媒合輔導監督或檢查怎麼會監督或檢查監督跟檢查是不太一樣的概念所以我覺得第二項為什麼會這樣寫你到第三項的時候你就寫得清清楚楚的說對居家托育人員之監督及檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11429.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11457.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那我不知道監督跟檢察本來就是不太一樣的樣態為什麼會寫成貨所以我覺得第二項還是要用集以上好 那請信任人員這邊針對於貨貨集有沒有要如月全委員所認為的要把貨變成集請說明可以啊 我們參考委員的建議我們把貨改成集 沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11459.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11487.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
第二項就把監督或檢查的部分變成監督級檢查那第四項一樣的就是說反而又漏掉了因為為什麼第一項居家托育人員的登記收托人數輔導管理廢紙登記這些你的檢查的頻率或怎麼檢查事實上應該也要用中央主管機關來定制所以是不是這個也把它加入檢查因為檢查的機制還是要去建立授權你那個授權執法去定 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11490.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11508.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們參裁委員的意見輔導頓耗管理及檢查管理管理頓耗檢查頓耗廢紙登記後面的文字就就按照現在的一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11510.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11529.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
第三項我有問題就是說第三項沒有罰則所以我們是不是應該新增罰則訂在第71條因為每一項規定都必須要有罰則他才會成為一個被看到的規定沒有罰則的規定等於沒有規定第三項有定義的規定嗎請說明應該要訂新增一個罰則訂在71條 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11541.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11567.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我想跟委員確認一下是指說對於任何人的罰則嗎任何人居托人員不能規避妨礙或拒絕啊不得切顧長逆兒童啊如果他們這樣做要怎麼處罰啊要罰多少啊就是這後面的罰則對於違反第十一條第一項第二項第三項的第三項的人要怎麼處罰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11569.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11572.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
不是在這裡的啦因為好像後面沒有對應的有第66條第66條有罰則66條的第一項罰1到5萬變現感 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11597.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11606.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
因為有時候我們就是新增了採取了我們的大家的意見然後新增了沒有對應的法則我看一下第66條第66條的第一項第一款我們這個是第幾條這個是第11條 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11614.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11637.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
第66條第一項第一款違反第11條第三項的規定規避妨害或拒絕之下是縣市主管好那我想那我想到這個東西不是只有居托人員那像是大公寓大廈的任何人任何人呢不一定是保姆保姆的先生啦保姆的小孩啦妨礙到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11648.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11671.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我講一下先等他們確認一下如果還在確認當中的話那請黃委員因為我們的文字後面有寫任何人都不得規避妨礙或拒絕那任何人那個你們66條只有寫居家托育人員有以下列情形之一你們前面我們現在修的是任何人對啦就是居托66條是不夠的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11677.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11699.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
黃偉提出來就是說任何人跟他涵蓋的內容因為主管機關現在說66條嘛但是66條開宗明義講的是居家土地人員有下列情形之一才有這個處罰但是我們現在訂的這個法規裡面我們的法律裡面是指任何人不得去隱匿不得去阻止不得去拒絕去妨礙在相關的檢查那這個任何人他如果做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11701.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11715.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
妨礙檢查包含說剛剛提到的管理員或是管委會的管理員然後保姆的先生保姆的小孩妨礙了要去檢查的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11716.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11738.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
也要處分那個跟委員說明我們這邊因為後面改的時候漏掉我們是不是在第66條的時候增加第二項對於任何人違反第11條第三項的一個處罰的一個規定那把原來66條的第二項再改列為第三項那文字的話我們等一下再處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11742 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11770.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
沒有會不會怪怪的因為你第66條不管第一款第二款你講是第一款第二款還是第二項第二項第二項你要是第二項不是第一款第二款嗎因為不管第幾款主持都是居家服務人托育人員只有第二項可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11773.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11798.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
如果照剛才的邏輯這個怎麼就又變成任何人了我是我是沒意見是可以的只要能夠管得到就好了法律都說任何人都不能結果沒有處罰的配套的話那任何人沒有意義了是變成第二項只能第二項或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11801.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11826.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
第66條你那個第一項前面居家托育人員那幾個字直接拿掉啊有下列情形之一你再動遷移法動全身你最好是另外再衝一下為什麼不行我們第66條本身就有保留嘛是不是到第66條的時候我們再重新回頭來看這些內容可以啊大家記得不要忘了不要漏了 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11827.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11851.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
好我相信大家記憶力都很好是老實說因為民間的社團在看著否則大家都知道可是我們都沒有抓到啊就是這個政府也沒抓到立委沒抓到就是人家在看我們IVOD的這些民間的團體在看的他們有看到啊我是怕到時候我們不要忘了人家看到跟我們講了我們等一下到時候不要忘了這樣子而已好遵照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11856.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11884.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
第66條我們要確認到時候在重新討論的時候需要把這些內容都要涵括進來那我們現在回到11條不曉得大家對11條在文字上還有沒有其他要再做確認或者是有意見的部分請問各位還沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11885.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11896.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
沒有的話就按照我們修正行政院的提案條文然後經過大家討論的文字後修正後通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11911.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11922.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
剛剛我們召委主席是宣布12點休息不過因為我們在往下那個條實際上不太容易掌控所以我特別容我宣布現在休息 下午2點繼續開會好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11942.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11944.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
大家辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
19529.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
19547.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好 我們下午會議繼續開始繼續審查院版13條然後還有修正通有第一案 第四案 還有第六案那其他委員我們就不再贅述 謝謝來要不要請行政機關先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
19552.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
19567.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
第13條是林淑芬委員陳昭芝委員跟王玉敏委員希望在中央要訂定收退費項目及基準那因為跟第7條是有聯動的關係所以我們在這一條的一個條文的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
19568.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
19588.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
各位委員可以看那個螢幕上的文字那第一項我們的文字是居家托育服務收費及退費項目之訂定與調整原則由中央主管機關公告之然後新增第二項的一個跟院版不一樣的是新增第二項的一個文字中央主管機關應定期召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
19591.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
19611.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
定期招集直轄市縣市主管機關及相關學者專家民間團體代表審酌全國及各地區消費者物價指數家庭可支配所得托育人員勞動條件及其他相關因素進行研議訂定居家托育服務收費與退費基準之調整原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
19612.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
19641.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
然後第三項直轄市縣市主管機關因第一項公告之收費退費項目及調整原則並因轄區內居家托育服務收托方式及收費情形分區訂定托育服務收費及退費之基準並公告之那配合委員期待我們要兩年來定期檢討所以我們新增了第四項前項托育服務收費及退費之基準因至少每兩年定期檢討那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
19644.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
19671.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好 各位委員 針對這次林淑媛 林月琴委員還有陳伯源所提的這個修正動議整合的整合起來的版本的草案可以啦齁 有沒有其他一些 沒有好 好 謝謝那我們是不是就建議就依照這個行政院的提案然後林月琴及林淑媛委員修正動議修正後通過 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
19674.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
19674.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
來 繼續審查院版第16條來 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
19698.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
19728.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
第16條是前次審查的時候委員希望林淑芬委員希望我們可以調查居托中心協助居家托育人員的一個出險狀況所以我們調查了113年居托人員投保責任險跟居托中心協助出險的樣態那目前全國有17個縣市62處的居托中心都有補助居托人員保險費那投保者94%都有居托中心代為投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
19728.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
19757.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
如果發生事故的話也是居住中心代委協助出嫌所以本條在實務執行上並沒有困難那我們也遵照委員的意見修正第一項的文字居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前完成投保專業責任保險那以上說明好這是有院本又林淑穩委員所的提案照這樣修正有沒有其他意見來請林淑穩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
19758.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
19779.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們當初的爭議像是講說未透過中心投保要怎麼樣協助他們理賠是不是當時在談這個他不是透過縣市政府的居托中心而是自行去投保的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
19790.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
19814.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那跟委員說明那我們就是中央來要求地方政府協助跟居托中心來協助我們居家托人員投保因為這裡講的是說居托人員應該在收托當日前完成投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
19815.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
19840.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那前項保險期間發生投保事故時居多中心應主動協助辦理賠償現在只有台南台南沒有補助所以那他們怎麼辦因為大部分都是有補助嘛目前就好像是沒有提供投保補助的是台南 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
19860.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
19878.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那請說明因為就只有個別縣市我們中央就來協調地方政府來協助居托中心來辦理這件事情阿朗 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
19879.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
19893.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
不是 就是說你去他們如果他們不願意 我是說如果沒有你說你去協助他們是 那我們要強制所有每個人都必須在居托中心投保嗎主要的重點是沒有透過居托中心去投保的居托中心要如何協助辦理理賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
19905.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
19931.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我們也沒有強制規定一定要透過居托中心才能投保那沒有透過居家中心去投保的自己去投保要怎麼處理你說你去協調地方政府法律有沒有規定每個人都一定要透過居托中心去投保只有單一管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
19937.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
19940.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
來 給次長說明現在委員的意思就是說如果說有那個居多中心如果沒有的話該如何處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
19950.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
19973.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我提供一個譬如說我們之前在馬太安如果說馬太安的志工如果說有是那個各目的事業那目的事業主管嘛沒有的話那就是其他他就是志工他自己去跟其他的那個保險公司來投保我們可不可以用這種方式那你條文要怎麼寫就其他保險公司可不可行用這種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
19974.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
19978.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
居托中心它是一個組織嘛對不對居托中心有做這個 都做這個沒做這個你就個人去保養公司這樣可以嗎我們的意思是說居托人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
19987.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
20006.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
你在保姆啦你在收拓以前你就要完成保險嘛然後呢如果發生事情要理賠要給付的時候居托中心可以協助那個別保險的人目的事業主管機關還是各級政府也應該協助你的意思是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
20012.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
20022.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這樣子那你還可以一種選擇就是說所有投保規定不要開放個體戶全部都透過居托中心去去保險可是你法條要寫上去啊單一規定沒有個體戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
20030.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
20046.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
也可以啊對啊是也可以啊因為我們現在九成四都是居托中心幫他們投保的不要說藥保人無法協助理賠這樣子而且那個委員我們建議就是那個賠償改成理賠因為保險保險是理賠不是賠償對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
20056.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
20083.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
只要居托中心不是要保人的這一個條件要不要讓他存在就是九成幾都是居托中心當要保人嘛簽保險的時候都是居托中心對那剩下沒有的那少數雖然是少數但也還是存在那如果你們說我們不允許有少數我們全部都透過居托中心去投保那也是一種選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
20087.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
20102.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
需不需要再想一下你們需不需要再想一下我們問一下為什麼不要那麼急因為如果說人家真的有沒有辦法的事項沒有辦法把藥保人全部都變成居托中心有沒有這種可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
20103.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
20120.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
你現在強迫他全部都只能透過居托中心去投保這樣子會不會有特殊需求所以你們還是了解一下我們要確認一下藥保人是誰因為居托中心是代為投保他是不是藥保人這件事我們要先釐清先澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
20122.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
20140.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
透過居托中心去投保的好像居托中心就是藥保的那什麼的好你們想一下主席先保留一下讓他們了解一下好了但是的確是存在沒有透過居托中心去投保的那這些人也應該要得到一些協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
20142.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
20168.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
辦理這個出嫌理賠的時候事實上每一件事情讓政府都知道每一個保姆都辦理過理賠那也比較可以掌握到底發生什麼事情了這樣子OK保留先保留主席因為好像監管會現場有有那個陳組長在陳組長可以稍微說明一下嗎好組長來監管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
20175.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
20197.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
跟主席還有各位委員報告依照目前那個托育人專業責任保險的條款要被保險人都是居家服務的那個提供者就是保姆對對所以那些所謂的協助應該就是幫助他們去投保但是要被保人都還是保姆本人那透過居托中心去投保是只是有補助這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
20200.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
20218.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
只是有補助食物上的補助我不是很確定不過保單條款的部分就是透過居多中心去投保跟不透過居多中心去投保有什麼差異他這個第一項也不是說一定要透過居多中心喔各位再看一下提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
20221.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
20247.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那個這一條他的那個主要是希望所有居家托育人員都應該要去投那個專業的責任險嘛我覺得重點是在這邊啊那以下他講的就是是居家托育服務總他本來就是在服務保姆跟督導保姆嘛所以他去協助辦理那個理賠事宜所以原來委員提的那個版本其實就都OK啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
20248.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
20270.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
这个规范的主体对象应该是居家托育人员那居家托育服务中心只是从旁协助处理一些理赔或者是行政事宜而已刚刚金管会讲的很清楚嘛你主体对象其实是那个保姆对啊所以这一条这样修应该是没有什么问题对啊 所以委员的文字是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
20271.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
20293.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
還是我們給他改成居托中心應提供必要協助因為你說居托中心要去幫他辦理理賠事宜主要是協助因為藥保人跟被保險人都是所以我們是不是改成居托中心應提供必要協助這樣就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
20296.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
20321.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
就是說也不一定是居托中心也不一定是個別因為他每一個藥保人都是個別保姆啊是啊那居托中心他是協助辦理他相關的那個理賠的事宜啊居托中心就是提供必要的協助就是協助保姆了其實這邊主要是要協助居托人 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
20323.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
20330.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
事實上因為藥保人是保姆所以什麼叫必要協助就是當他遇到有困難來求你的時候就是你就協助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
20335.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
20359.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那为什么不要原来的条文原来的条文其实是更明确啊就原来文体的版本这样的条文这样的描述记得明确因为你前面是在讲他必须完成专业责任保险啊对啊就原来的条文就好了我们原来的条文是居托中心得主动这样比较明确吧我们就是得啊你们就写成英啊是你们改的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
20360.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
20376.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
得协助办理赔偿我们的版本也是因我们的版本就是得我们的版本就是得那因不是更好吗不是啦因为你的要保人就保姆又不是居托中心我怎么知道你要理赔了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
20377.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
20401.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
不是那就是他主動協助啊他如果知道他就不知道他有出現所以他根本不知道要理賠啊那居托中心讓他多負一點責任不好嗎那多負一點責任不好嗎英里德更好吧對啊這個我不曉得還有這個居托中心也有中心當藥保人的藥保人也有居托中心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
20408.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
20422.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
現在我看到了那個彭婉如基金會的這個保險這個托育人員專業責任保險他們的藥保人就是居托中心載載服務類型載載大家再看一下這文字這樣可不可以文字在螢幕上 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
20435.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
20461.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
螢幕上看這樣可不可以應主動辦理理賠事宜主動協助我現在問題就是說那個個別去投保的然後藥保人士個別保母的他們居托中心都會知道嗎我的問題一直是這樣子剛才金管會就回答全部都是個別的勒是我舉例外 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
20466.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
20476.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
不是他不會知道這個保姆辦理理賠了比如說小孩子跌倒了他可能辦理一個理賠可是他一定會報給居托中心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
20486.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
20514.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
就是小孩子如果有受到傷害他要通報我們的規定他是要通報的那所以我們的法律有規定每一個理賠都應該通知居托中心嗎事故每一個大大小小的事故都會通報居托中心嗎大部分如果你有就醫的話才會有去理賠除非你說那我在家裡那個就不會他們一定都要通報因為事故傷害一定要通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
20517.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
20535.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我们重要本来我们的点是说那没有透过居托中心的人就是其实就这也是第一线的从业人员的意见就是说居托中心他们会掌握到每一个这个都知道吗对啊每一个这个保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
20536.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
20563.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
发生的状况都会知道吗然后他们都知道以后都应该要办理他们去办理理赔居托中心的人力或是什么他们有这么多人力可以办吗这个是第一线的人的反应我觉得是可以讨论因为这个也牵扯到家长的权益否则的话如果所以为什么居托中心会涉入的比较多是两方的权益都涉及在里边而且现在事故伤害各方面都一定要通报 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
20567.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
20584.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
现在就协助应应我们的版本是德你们都写应应主动协助办理那主动协助办理如果他来告知他他陪他应协助办理什么要办到什么程度啦你陪啊你陪 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
20586.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
20603.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
一些事情他們有時候保姆有時候我們想像的應應辦理事項跟可能居托中心想像的應辦理事項不一定會一致所以如果你說要叫他辦也可以但你要想要辦哪一些你的立法說明欄你的施行細則至少要定清楚吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
20605.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
20624.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
不要在未來發生糾紛吧法律說你應該要主動協助我們去辦理理賠事項啊說我有陪你去啊陪我去以後你沒幫我爭取什麼什麼的我通通就不知道了啊我的意思說你沒有講清楚法律規定這樣子沒有清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
20626.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
20650.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
这边不是写理赔事项吗理赔事项那么多又不是简单的理赔事项是理赔所以这一条其实就是在讲拘托人员要投保专业保险他我去帮你把保险公司找出来就叫办理完成了吗还是说我必须要办理你每一次跟保险公司谈判我都要陪你去呢所以你的修法意见是什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
20651.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
20680.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
沒有啦我的意思是說我們立法的人要給未來遵循法律的人很清楚不要在那裡模糊啊因為我也可以這樣子訂啊我也接受啊但是要訂這個法律的時候你要講清楚應該辦理的事項涵蓋範圍具體要辦理到哪個程度一定要到談判完成每一次談判都要陪他們去談判到有一個結果不管是破局要提告 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
20681.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
20694.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
未來提告或是怎麼樣那個都要居託中心都要扛責嗎我的意思是說講清楚就好了我們立法的時候要把法律責任講清楚因為我們這裡給人家寫應啊不是嗎李培事宜是哪些 教授李培事宜還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
20707.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
20730.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
你們一直說未經過居托中心去投保的情形不會有這種狀況你們都說沒有不可能只有少數那這些少數你們也講說只要發生初選了居托中心都一定會知道請問沒有透過居托中心去投保的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
20731.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
20736.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那居托中心要協助的範圍跟有透過居托中心去投保的他們要協助的範圍有什麼差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
20743.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
20763.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
他這個協助的強度總是會有不一樣吧因為你透過我居托中心去投保的話我負責任啊你沒有透過我居托中心你去自己找的 認識的 人情的然後去投保了那居托中心兩個不一樣的協助的強度也必須要一樣嗎我處理一下好不好 應該是這樣啦這個條文怎麼生出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
20769.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
20781.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我感覺這條條文應該主要是在第一項那至於第二項為什麼會寫成這樣請行政機關能不能好好說明不能好好說明我們就先保留好不好這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
20785.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
20801.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
第一項是我們原來的管理辦法裡面有我們把它一道模仿第二項是參考委員的意見做的文字好 你們沒有辦法解釋剛剛林淑穎委員所提的問題就那個主動協助的範圍 理賠的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
20806.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
20832.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
其實第二項很多委員的版本都有很多委員的版本 包括我這邊也有我們的利益就是就是當保姆他就要求這些居家托育人員他要投專業責任保險嘛那如果有狀況的時候本來居家服務中心就是在陪同保姆在處理事情的所以第二項也很簡單就是這樣的意志而已好 謝謝再請葉警委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
20834.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
20854.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
衛福部可不可以說明一下目前現況是什麼還有一個目前真的在到宅都沒有透過居府中心保險他們自己各保這是一個然後現在因為過去會這樣處理是因為因為保母有些人他對於這些理賠這些東西不太 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
20855.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
20873.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
不太了解也不太知道怎麼做所以才會評鑑的時候會要求居住中心有沒有去做這件事情嘛否則的話家長的權益是會受損的嘛所以那現在事實上是沒有了嗎所以我們當時會這樣寫是因為一直是期待要這樣子做那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
20874.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
20888.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
你們現在現況到底是什麼因為就我知道的事實上一直是居托中心會因為評鑑會規範著他們要去做這些事情所以我們就在想說那現在話外法條那淑媛委員擔心說話外法條是強制要做的話那是不是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
20889.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
20917.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
變成全部都要做所以你們可不可以先解釋一下讓我們兩邊可以去釐清比較清楚因為雖然是委員都這樣寫你們自己最後的版本也是這樣那要不要做一個說明謝謝我也再補充一點我覺得你們好像沒有講清楚因為現在第一線實務的人告訴我們他們的保險單不是這樣子透過居托中心去投保的居托中心跟保姆兩個同時都是要保人 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
20918.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
20939.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
他們是兩個藥保人所以居托中心協助的範圍當然要因為他包含理賠相關的申請文件的確認也會需要中心的大小張因為他也是藥保人同時兩個藥保人所以居托中心當然應該要協助才能去申請理賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
20942.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
20950.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
不是啊但是有個案不是啊有那種不是透過居托中心獨自自己一個人是要保人的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
20954.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
20973.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
對啦 所以我才說第二項大家要理清楚啦 好不好是不是行政機關你再理清楚一點我們先保留但是就是說到底是用什麼樣子在進行的食物面到底是什麼你們自己都沒有講清楚你們理好清楚 要不然人家你不懂也怪怪的你們說你們的要本人是個別保姆事實上我們看到很多個就是中心跟保姆同時啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
20974.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
20995.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好 這條先保留 等釐清楚之後再說明 再處理那我們接下來審王玉明委員所提的第16條還有嚴官委員 謝謝來 請行政機關說明好 那第16條委員指的是說如果沒有經過登記許可收託的是要進去做檢查跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
20998.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
21020.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
受檢查者不得規避的這個部分那我們在院版本的第十一條其實是有談到任何人都不能夠阻擋這個我們去調查去檢查這個部分我們想在行政院版本的第十一條已經有規範了這樣子好 謝謝王育民委員同意了那我們就不予採納了繼續審查王育民委員等所提的第十七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
21021.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
21040.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
啊 對不起 11條已經結束了好 應該是林淑穎委員的第22條對 陳菁委員18條 還有陳佩玉19條然後就是邱震東有第三案跟15案來請行政機關做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
21041.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
21056.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
好那委員提到的大概是說我們地方要訂定這個居家式托育服務緊急傷病的救護原則這樣子然後才能夠讓保母考照的時候所受的急救訓練在救護車到達之前可以運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
21057.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
21074.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
另外就是應該在保姆的考照跟訓練要加強緊急發生時的SOP以及跟家長要約定這個緊急狀況的執行的這個相關的細節包括說要打哪一些專線通知家長等然後另外委員也建議將緊急傷病 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21076.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21097.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
或事故修正為緊急傷病或事故傷害這樣子那行政機關的意見大概是綜合來說大概是一個是因為我們的居家托育人員他照顧孩子的這個部分各縣市區域的這個醫療院所的距離跟受托兒童的數還有跟家長約定可能都有差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21097.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
21119.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以我們建議是應該是可能要討論考論個別所以難以定定這個統一的緊急傷病的救護的原則那第二個是在居托人員的訓練裡面增加這個傷病的救護課程包括這些這是我們應該是可以的好那還有就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
21124.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
21151.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
緊急那個事故的部分我們可以改為事故傷害以上說明好來 各位有沒有其他意見對 你的條文在哪裡有林益勤委員的修正動議也有林淑媛的提案對 我們沒有打一個沒有再整理出一個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
21154.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
21162.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我們整理出一條條文我們有一個備案的條文同仁有列出來嗎有列出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
21164.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
21192.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
就是居家托育人員在收托兒童遇緊急傷病或事故傷害時應依兒童傷病或事故情形採取相關的處置包含與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人以書面約定兒童傷病之就醫地點通知法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人呼叫緊急救護專線支援及收托兩人以上的這個處理措施就是個別訂定這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
21198.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
21221.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
主席主席請說為什麼地方主管機關還是要訂定一些而且現在食物現場很長時候他們都亂了慌張掉所以甚至這些東西為什麼都還要提供給保母否則的話不會有過去有保母送到樓下藥房 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
21222.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
21249.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
孩子都快不行了還送到底下藥房這過去判例還有發生實際現場甚至坐計程車去在下班時間所以為什麼要去訂定一些原則就是地方政府還是當然我知道剛剛副署長講說因為有各種不同樣態你原則 大原則還是要訂定你不訂的結果就是大家都不知道怎麼做慌亂當中自己亂做最後本來孩子事實上可以救回來的最後沒有救回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
21250.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
21278.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這過去一直都有實務現場的這麼多案例為什麼不是去做這第一個第二個我不太同意為什麼寫你說或實際照顧人以書面約定兒童傷病的就醫地點我若約定事實上是診所我到底保姆要送診所還是送醫院很嚴重的時候照理來講所以我們連托兒所評鑑托醫中心評鑑都不同意這樣做了一定是約定大醫院可是你現在寫的會變成是就醫的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
21280.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
21281.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
地點 就醫地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
21283.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
21310.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那是這樣 我送到診所我約定在我熟悉的親戚底下開藥房可不可以之前不是就是有送藥房嗎來不及才趕快送到診所結果沒辦法急救最後才送大醫院 孩子就走了所以我認為這樣的顯示是非常有疑慮的 以上那個跟委員報告我想我們是可以參考林淑芬跟陳培語委員的這個文字做修正參考委員的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
21311.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
21333.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
你上面的文字就不是我們這樣子的所以我們就用委員的文字這樣子我覺得這比較清楚我們應該是要訂原則交給地方政府去訂啊你這樣子也不對啊因為淑芬委員版本還是在這樣傷病的就醫地點啊剛我就講說就醫地點也不可行嘛然後淑芬委員的前面也沒有加 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
21333.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
21362.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
因為我的版本事實上是有加說地方主管應訂定居家室托育服務緊急傷病或事故傷害的救護原則那這個也沒有啊我提的兩點都沒有辦法回應啊所以等於說我的修正動議已經進來那是不是可以考慮用我的版本而非用因為我的後面跟署分委員比較差異的那所以這個事實上是要依前向原則不會是我們先約好的就醫地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
21366.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
21389.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這個應該是有層次上的差別第一個就是說一般狀況相互約定那緊急狀況的話就是緊急的傷病救護的話再交給這個直轄市縣市政府去訂定那直轄市縣市政府訂定的應該就要以這個教學型或者是大型的醫院為核心了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
21389.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
21404.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
就交給地方政府去決定如果遇到非常這個緊急的狀況應該是怎麼處理所以第一項講的相互約定的家長和居多中心的應該或是保母約定的應該是一般狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
21405.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
21426.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
一般生小感冒這種還有我的有加煉那個每一年要做演練啦我覺得看起來不可信可是我覺得沒有透過演練真的發生事情的時候常常急救張亂做跟家長在宿命約定告知緊急狀況而且的確也要演練沒錯啊SOP你們要不要想出我們這幾點你要回應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
21432.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
21450.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
就是第一點大概是林淑芬委員的這個是我們一般的常態因為我們講的是兒童傷病所以有些孩子他其實是有固定就醫的意願如果他只是生病其實確實是在契約或者跟家長約定的契約其實會是林委員那個第一項是通常是這樣的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
21451.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
21471.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那剛剛林月琴委員談到的是說如果緊急傷病是希望地方政府主管機關能夠定到就是比較是統一的這個救護的原則這件事情應該是第二件事情那第三件事情是希望居托中心就是每一年要依照這些的原則來做演練的部分我們其實是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
21473.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
21501.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
52條是有講他們是每兩年是要完成8小時的救命術然後同時是要做這個3小時做這個緊急救護情境的演習這不太一樣因為可能就在現場就在教室裡邊做跟在家裡有時候去訪視輔導的時候去輔導他們做還是不一樣就他們家裡的情境做會比較切實際和一個在課堂上可能請一兩個學員在做我覺得那種狀況是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
21502.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
21532.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好 請王育敏委員那個是陳金輝委員的版本他就有特別提到就是居家托育服務中心應輔導居家托育人員落實前項原則並並期實施演練所以你們一開始幹嘛說這個陳金輝委員的版本不可行他的現在看起來他的那個完整度其實都有涵蓋到啦他特別也提到了那個要落實演練的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
21535.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
21557.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我再說明一次我們22條就是說平常一般的一般是書面約定的但發生緊急傷病或事故的時候是要依照地方政府制定的這個緊急傷病救護原則一般是照約定緊急的時候是依照縣市政府定的原則去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
21557.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
21570.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那另外就是說要輔導這些居家托育人員要落實前項的原則那落實以後當然可以包含演練的情境所以你們到底條文要怎麼想可不可以拿出來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
21573.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
21599.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
可以馬上弄出來嗎應該是前面都放我們的是沒有問題的後面再增加你的前面跟那個陳菊媛委員都是一樣的然後後面我們的版本是托盟的版本然後後面陳菊會最後最後有寫到那個就是要演練的部分這個也是剛剛林苑芹委員提到的所以我覺得陳菊媛委員版本完整了還是不一樣他講定期我的是每年因為我覺得還是有落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
21605.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
21614.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
沒有的話就先保留因為這這這件事情蠻重要關係到孩子生命我覺得不可能那麼粗糙的就在如果沒有想清楚去定 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
21615.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
21638.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我想應該是我們的前三項都是有的但是現在第四項或第三項要怎麼補充應該是這樣子想就可以了吧因為演練的話在保姆的在職訓練也有我們這個第三項也有只是說第三項的內容要怎麼樣再強化它我覺得應該是可以討論的但第一項跟第二項應該是跟陳敬輝委員的版本他也是跟我們一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
21640.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
21647.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
第一項第二項應該是沒有疑問啦現在是第三項還要再增加他的內涵更嚴謹一點這樣子可以嗎還是要先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
21659.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
21681.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
落差大概就是因為就是要落實前項原則那原項前項的原則就是由直轄市縣市主管區定之所以我想細節他們一定會定的那另外的落差其實曾經委員就是定期那林瑞琴委員是每年這樣子那你就給他每年就好了啊那我們就尊重委員的意見如果應該每年應該是看每年 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
21688.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
21691.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
你現在可以馬上把文字弄出來嘛對不對 可以啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
21692.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
21722.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
但是前面應該都是一樣所以第一項第二項其實都一樣現在就是看是要定期還是每年可是第二項我的也跟不太一樣的是因為你這邊寫的上前項居家室托育服務緊急傷病救護原則跟事故傷害還是不太一樣所以我認為還是要加就是說托育服務緊急傷病或事故傷害的救護原則把它講清楚說明白 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
21724.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
21751.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
緊急傷病加一個或而已啊或啊又沒有關係加上去或事故傷害啊或事故兩個字啊是在第一項反正緊急傷病或事故傷害他就是把它拆開成這樣子而已嗎對啊對就是第一項第二項都加就是改為緊急傷病或緊急傷病救護都給他改成緊急傷病或事故傷害的救護原則是 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
21754.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
21778.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好啦 裡面都等一下啦 王振興委員要出手了他已經急很久了謝謝主席的慣愛的眼神你總是讓我看到你是 其實經委委員的修正動議裡面是有提到算是完整不過跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
21781.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
21805.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
相關看到的部分就是跟蘇文維 不對 葉請委員所提到的部分有一點點的差異 因為葉請委員這邊提到的第一項的最後 他有關於法定代理人或失業兒童之人未到達前採取必要的處置 這部分是菅威委員沒有提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
21805.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
21828.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那其他部分實施應該還是要每年辦理相關年份會比較好那事故的話還是要事故傷害比較完整所以看如何能夠把這個有關於熱情委員在採取就是未到達之前採取必要處置的部分也能夠納進來的話就會更為完整以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
21829.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
21855.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
好 王委員已經指示了好 開始了好 那我們就是把文字再調整一下好那是不是剛剛又證據委員在提的就是我的修正動議那邊因為過去很常要嘛就是把孩子帶著去 還好有的是叫孩子自己上救護車自己保母留在家裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
21857.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
21884.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
然後孩子在路途當中後來到院之後死亡怎麼會讓一個一歲的孩子自己在救護車上沒有任何大人陪同這也是實務上發生的所以為什麼我會寫說為就是在法定代理人或是沒有到達之前要必要的措施把它列在那邊所以我們在第一項的後面就加上林月全委員剛剛的文字我們把它念一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
21886.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
21904.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
先讀一下第一項為事當之處置逗點並與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人未到達前逗點採取必要之處置在第一項後面增加這樣寫對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
21915.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
21941.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這樣子寫如果說他就交給他就上救護車了救護車上的人就會處理了然後要陪我們可能到的就不是處置我們可能就是陪同因為你的處置可能就交給專業了那到醫院可能父母也還沒在那也是給專業的人處置也不是沒有 這個處置有兩種一種是我孩子還在家裡我到底是要交托給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
21943.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
21960.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
在家裡就是他實施緊急救命術啊通常他有一個他只有單一的一個人的時候他是要交託給鄰居還是交託給誰甚至他要不要帶著孩子去跟隨同去醫院還是就只有就一個是受傷一個是未受傷的他隨同孩子去啊另外一個要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
21961.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
21985.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
就一種是說如果他單純帶一個人還好可是有一個受傷一個未受傷的話未受傷的那個我說這邊就是說他要不要還沒到達之前就爸媽還沒來接這孩子的時候他的必要要採取必要的處置應該要先行去做處理你們因為法條列上去才知道這個原則實際上是去遵守的 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
21990.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22017.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所以現在這個文字還不行那要不要 好我想方向是我們都同意的就是但是說這個執行面應該要有很多細節要面面俱到的去討論和思考所以沒有辦法馬上生成一個文字讓大家都覺得是已經是周全了所以還必須要再慢一點然後再思考才能周全這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22018.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22039.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
就是文字還不行嘛 就先保留啦王委員開始不好啦 後來來 繼續審查院版17案院版18 對不起然後修正動議有第9案第10案來 請行政機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22042.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22057.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
院版的18的部分大概是我們建議就是需要協助的兒童建議委員建議是要修正為處於不利處境或危機家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22058.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22075.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
之兒童那另外就是希望新增這個托嬰中心的員工其實可以列為是招收的順序之一這樣子那行政院我們這邊的意見大概是說第一個我們在我們的條文裡面的第幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22078.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22099.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
第三項的第二款需要協助的兒童其實是比較廣泛其實包括了處境處於不利處境或危及家庭的兒童那另外就是委員建議是托嬰中心的員工的子女應該也納入在搜索順序我們有把它列進來這樣子這個有那個林衛請委員的修正都有盧縣議員的順序動議對我們有列進來並案討論請盧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22104.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22117.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
就是第二項需要學助這個部分希望能夠增加就是及當地原住民族弱勢家庭兒童這兩個這兩個名詞就當地原住民族還有弱勢家庭兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22120.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22142.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
跟委員說明我們在第4條的第3項已經有定義需要協助的兒童就是包含離島偏遠原住民地區或者是因經濟身心文化跟族群而有協助需求的兒童所以已經在第4條已經訂了 謝謝好 還有其他委員有意見嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22149.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22170.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那我沒 欸 來來處理了齁 是這樣現在我原名出分體驗行政機關體驗修正團這是盧縣立盧縣立的修正動議盧縣立委員也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22172.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
22192.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
他有一個修正動議好那我們第18條就依照民主委員等25提案還有行政院提案修正後通過謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
22194.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
22204.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
來接下來處理第19案 抱歉我可不可以 因為有講必要處置了嘛你不要再說了啦 現在去跟媽做第19案 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
22212.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
22239.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
第19條有關林淑芬委員提出來的第25條的員工子女的部分已經在剛剛那一條已經處理了那黃婕委員關心的是對於兒童有權益損害的時候主管機關可以駁回設立許可的申請這一個那我們會在授權的執法的規範那我們也會在這個說明欄裡面去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
22240.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
22255.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那針對武麗華委員關心原住民地區的兒童要優先收拖那這個我們已經在第4條裡面特別有訂定那在院版的第20條也有特別規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
22257.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
22282.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
收託6歲以上的兒童在原住民跟邊緣離島地區所以已經有參採委員的意見做處理那我們這邊中整委員的意見去做文字上的一個修正就是在第19條的第4項把托育相關人員的資格與配置修正為托育相關人員配置以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
22284.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
22312.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
好 各位委員針對院版19條有沒有其他意見如果沒有 我們就依照行政的提案修正後通過接下來處理院版第20條那有修正動議第對不起 對不起來對 院版 我們來到院版第24條還有其他委員的版本然後有修正動議第10案第10案是誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
22314.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
22341.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
也是盧憲麗委員的 好 謝謝來請行政機關說明好 那委員的建議是那個就是鼓勵部件這個離島偏遠地區原住民地區的托育資源要增列托育專業人員辦理護住室的托育能夠提供租金的優惠那在行政院我們的版本我們是在第一個我們是把托育專業人員增列進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
22342.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
22364.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那第二個是我們在行政院版本的文字裡面我們有講他們是需要公有不動產的時候得由公有財產管理機關以出租方式提供使用那其年租金的基準按照該不動產當期依法應繳納的地價稅跟房屋稅計算這個部分其實已經有優惠措施在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
22365.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
22382.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
這有有一些的規定本來就是 本來就有的規定這樣子就是非營利組織呈租的時候都可以有一些優惠這樣子好請林書翁委員好因為這個第四項請大家看第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
22385.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
22407.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
第四項最後講的是說裡面講到托育相關人員的資格那托育相關人員裡面包含了像廚工護理師他也被包進去了那因為我們前面講這麼多的本法對於資格的規定只有規範托育的專業人員20條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
22417.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
22428.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
剛才你不是在講那個盧憲宇之後我們有保留啊第19條有保留啊剛剛第19條抱歉我我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
22439.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
22467.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
好那我現在我再補充一下就好了我們的托育相關人員我們都沒有規範到這裡資格也沒有規範所以我們其實在講的都是托育專業相關人員可是你把這個專業兩個字拿掉了19條第4項的院版的第4項裡面的專業兩個字拿掉除公護理師都會都會被包進去了除公案護理師 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
22471.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
22477.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
托育專業相關那你把專業兩個字拿掉了的話連變少了連出工可能都包進去了可以要求但是這個我們這個法都沒有整部法都沒有談到出工所以這裡是不是應該說要不然你就再加一個就是說非專業人員非專業以外的托育相關人員相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
22500.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
22516.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們就授權給這個行政機關主管機關去訂定跟委員說明我們在那個第三條的名字定義的第17款工作人員就是只負責 抱歉是資格兩個字我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
22517.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
22535.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
主管人員 機構托育人員以外在托育機構服務之人員然後第18款是托育相關人員就是指負責任托育專業人員及工作人員也就是說委員所講的第19條第4項托育相關人員是在這一個第3條名詞定義的第18款 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
22536.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
22547.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
就含那些配置除工護理師就是其他的專業人員那除工護理師這些資格定在哪裡我們整部法放在哪裡有要求除工和護理師 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
22550.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22578.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我們會有授權法規來定那如果是護理人員他就是依照現在好沒關係那你是不是像雛工你就沒有所以我們其實是要資格限定的那要資格限定的話我們裡面都沒有定出資格的規範整部法都沒有就雛工護理人員這樣子那我們是不是就是也是建議說你在母法裡面只要帶過一句叫做我們授權這個目的事業主管區機關去訂定相關執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22580.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22606.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
妳就加一句這樣就好了對 跟委員報告我們在後面有一個專章是人員資格所以我們在這一條的第19條行政院的版本我們其實是托於相關人員配置所以我們把資格與這三個字拿掉因為在第四資格不能拿掉第四章有一個人員資格專章這個資格有包含雛工嗎漢戶裡是這種待會在後面可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22607.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22634.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
有包含雛工嗎資格不能刪除才能授權去訂定執法因為你訂定執法就是母法裡面有講到要有資格因為第4章是一個人員資格完全規範在第4章不是第4章有包含雛工嗎第4章如果有包含雛工我沒有意見第4章的資格如果沒有包含我們等一下到第4章可以來討論是不是把雛工加上去就是要雛工的資格護理師的資格要放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22636.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22649.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我記得因為我從來沒有印象說後面有涉及到雛工或者是護理師的概念的應該都沒有後面都沒有都沒有你在這裡講你就要 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22650.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22667.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
就是加一句話就可以了啊這些資格就授權給目的世界主管機關或者授權給中央目的世界主管機關去訂定相關法規規範可是你這樣子的話又會變成說其他的又要放在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22668.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
22686.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
他第四章有定只是等第四章再把它加列你要加進去你想想看因為第四章全部講的都是托育的專業人員都是這一些沒有講到儲供都沒有所以等第四章我們要把它去加列到時候在競合上你們再考慮想想看要放哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
22687.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
22706.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
就這一條跟後面看看要放哪裡反正一定要有資格限制然後要有個母法的依據才能給你們訂定執法資格這個條件一定要放著那依據母法裡面有的文字才能去訂定執法這樣子授權給他們去訂執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
22709.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
22725.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
你要放哪裡 我也不是很執著啦你現在講19條應該剛剛就有提到嘛 對不對好 那現在是要出24條好 好啦各位沒關係 沒關係 好你們去想一下啦你們也想一下 可以想出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
22727.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
22747.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我們是建議是放在因為我們的第4章其實是講人員之資格與義務及托育服務之管理其實我們沒有講專業人員相關專業所以是可以在第4章的時候好沒關係你想要看要怎麼放好這樣可以了要限定好OK那24條怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
22752.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
22757.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我覺得我們訂這個法律我先發牢騷一下我們訂這個法律是要用錢走的你看連廚工都要訂資格了然後你看這個保姆也要訂訓練的要求這麼大結果我們要開放外籍移工來顧小孩外籍移工有辦法像我們這麼專業嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
22772.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
22787.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
沒有啊 沒有辦法像我們這麼專業啊那為什麼要反其道而行呢如果大家都覺得請外籍移工就來顧小孩了那這部法律我就不知道為什麼這麼嚴謹了我是講 我不曉得我在講什麼話 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
22795.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
22801.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好 這個沈曹焕這個是典型的沈曹焕焦慮症好 我們現在休息我們現在休息 文中好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
22805.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
22831.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我說的不是事實我們的保姆也要求這麼嚴格上書總統啦 上書給總統機構也要求這麼嚴格我們大家都要向前衛福部要講話跟總統會員講話連出工都要有資格限制總統要放寬啦結果就 都是你們啊你們委員也很多人說要開放外籍醫工啊外籍醫工顧小孩外籍醫工有辦法這種轉行嗎我們的倒退的路 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
22836.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
22837.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
幫傭的人會帶小孩會比保姆專業家庭幫傭 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
22866.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
22867.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
怎麼可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
22898.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
22900.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23029.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23032.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
他不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23057.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23059.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
你現在是委員長嗎所以你要的都有放進去嗎 剛剛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23142.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23158.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
自己先吃好了,笑得好笑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23174.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23193.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
對阿對阿那個進度很緩慢真的你學法人你應該要改善這整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23199.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23203.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23208.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23230.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
真的不需要放到這裡因為你的袋子要不要拿過來這真的長得太厚實了法不是要求要金對啊要金要結果這種修法就是為服務長要長出來特別國藝長出來每一個法案都這樣樂樂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23235.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23261.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
我覺得其實中藥原則放進來就好了那個有一些太細的真的是受不了你再繼續吃藥真的 韓院長 韓院長的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23310.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23317.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
他選擇自己吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23330.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23352.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
他們那個攝取出來的比較耐磨耐用 比較耐用醫院的學校工作大概是兩天做一次急救就是說定期 兩天要有診施 兩天要有診施就是說你要再診施 或是再prep一次要認證 但是那個急救的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23357.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23387.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
趙記 趙記 趙記會講趙記嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23405.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23410.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
哎呦哎呦哎呦哎呦 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23417.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23431.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23438.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23438.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
要吃的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23492.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23495.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
24條我們對不起繼續開會要叫什麼就趕快去叫24條這樣OK吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23509.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
23536.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
24條有沒有其他意見24條各位沒有意見我們就照行政院的提案及林書穩委員所提的修正動議對 所提好 我再重新宣告就依照行政院的提案修正以及林書穩委員的提案修正來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
23537.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
23558.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
好那各位沒有意見那我們就照這樣通過那繼續來審查院版第25案來請說明26條 26 對不起 26案 26案抱歉抱歉26案然後修正動議是林業勤委員所提的修正動議我們並然來審查來請行政機關做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
23561.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
23581.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
林委員認為我們原來院版的主管機關他對於托育機構的管理檢查監督不應該由受委託單位來處理所以我們已經把原來院版的第一項修正為第一項跟第二項分開處理主管機關要辦理托育機構的管理監督及檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
23582.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
23597.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那主管機關可以自行或委託專業機構團體來辦理托育機構的輔導跟評鑑那評鑑的報告跟結果要公布在網站上那這個也參採林月琴跟林淑芬委員的意見把它納到文字裡面去做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
23598.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
23624.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那另外顧玉琴委員建議說地方政府要每月定期在網站上公佈托育機構違規處分的資訊保障家長資的權利那這個在我們院版的第五條跟第六條都已經有載明說不管是中央或地方主管機關他都要公佈不利處分的一個資訊那第三個是有關於林淑芬委員關心負評之後的追蹤輔導那要確認這個托育服務品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
23625.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
23653.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那這個我們在最後一項已經把最終輔導這樣的文字納進來修正那有關於張雅玲委員跟那個郭育晴委員關心托育機構的負責人跟主管人員如果跟原來違規的機構托育相關人員具有三親等關係的話可不可以授權主管機關去做查核那考量這樣的一個狀況所以我們在今天的修正版本新增第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
23654.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
23675.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
特別表明說主管機關他如果在托育機構有下列個管情形要加強前項的管理監督跟檢查也就是說他如果這一個在同時新設立許可的托育機構他設立前的托育機構經過主管機關廢止撤銷設立許可或自行歇業而且位於5年者 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
23676.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
23701.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那主管機關要加強管理監督及檢查另外一個就是在機構的負責人配有三親等內的血親或陰親如果他設有本法第36條第38條到第40條所列情事之一者那主管機關在加強管理監督的時候如果發現的話也要做處理那其他著作文字的修正那以上說明來各位有沒有其他的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
23707.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
23709.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
再往上一點 再往下一點 我們看看底下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
23736.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
23744.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
他這個有參照你的修正動議我們要看一下他寫的一樣的嗎對 一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
23752.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
23780.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那你那個紙本就是托育機構對於第一項及第二項之管理監督檢查輔導及評鑑不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童我們剛前面是不是有任何人我已經忘記了居家托育人員這邊是托育機構所以是同樣的就是不得規避妨礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
23784.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
23809.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
這樣好像都有重複性的寫法我知道啦 我的意思就是說我們的修法就是不夠簡潔啦 就是一直在重複同樣的我知道 但是就是說我們的修法這個也提供給大家參考我們好像有一些重複性的用語在不同的條文出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
23811.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
23833.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
我覺得這個就是在修法上面其實我們修法應該是更簡潔但我們好像會同樣的旨意同樣的東西在不同的條文就重複出現了就你這樣的東西你如果居家有機構也有那你那種共通性的你不能在某一個條文裡面就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
23835.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
23845.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
如果這個都是你覺得不得規避妨礙檢查什麼什麼的在法的處理沒辦法這樣我真的覺得我們這樣修起來漏漏的 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
23846.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
23865.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
可是也不太一樣因為像托育機構才有評鑑居家保姆是沒有評鑑所以體力上還是會有很多有一些字眼上落差要合併而且更何況我們是張姐已經分開來了不是主要是因為居家會有特別的規定是因為每個保姆家裡住的條件不一樣地點不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
23866.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
23883.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
他們設的可能障礙遇到的可能狀況會不一樣因為那個旨意都是不得規避妨礙或拒絕然後檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童無論是居家或機構都是一樣的我只在講說如果有所以用托育機構就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
23884.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
23904.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
居家也一樣啊我的意思是說檢查的內容會不一樣啊因為而且機構機構才有評鑑啊事實上保姆是沒有評鑑如果你列的時候是不是又要第二列講說保姆的那個評鑑你也不得規避妨礙跟拒絕還不是一樣不是啦這個應該不是說從不經檢或諜傳家務因為這個章節都分開了規範的對象也分開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
23910.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
23930.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
所以還好啦那個在其他法律也都是這樣子講的立法的體力上也是因為很難說共通性定在一起沒有共通性的再分開很難這樣子那在看法律的人其實要方便看法律的人我是保姆就看第二張就好了我是機構就看第三張就好了這樣比較方便這樣也比較清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
23933.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
23961.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
你叫他說一樣的還要再看前面再看後面這個我只是提出來說大家思考就是你講的也有道理啦對啦我們就是立法其實應該是要比較嚴簡應該簡潔利落一點我們現在聽出來就是比較繁複就是有點跟跟一般在立法我們真的是對啦我們是立法的但看法律使用法律的人是一般人這是主管機關的問題啦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
23963.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
23979.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
你講的很有道理 主管機關的問題所以請主管機關法規會法規會都沒有表示意見那也請那個參事 法務部 我們最美的參事就有勞你多多提點一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
23986.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
23991.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
對 還是曾市領要起來表達一些意見像我們這樣的修滑地會不會太 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
23997.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
24023.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
跟主席跟各位委員報告因為其實這一部法在那個衛福部跟行政院的時候大家都有很仔細的討論過很多遍那可是要這麼一套很完整的法律要每一個面面都俱到的狀況下實在也很不容易所以我們也符合很多委員的要求還有各方面的意見所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
24024.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
24040.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
現在就是像委員們有提到雖然很繁複但是因為分章節所以還是這樣子處理那來到這邊好像又多添了很多的意見所以所以看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
24042.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24069.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
加了一張互助式的那更多所以看起來就像我們呂次長說的希望很完整但是好像也沒有辦法完美可能就只能請大家在這邊就盡量討論那我們在法務部這邊意見就是盡量尊重那個主管機關的專業意見跟政策決定然後還有委員大院委員的決議結果是以上好謝謝參事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24074.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24102.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
的建議的評論啦所以說這個意思說這個法修到這樣子不是不是主管機關那我們趕快回到第26條的草案各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有的話我們就這樣來處理好不好就是照行政院的提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24103.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24115.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
林月琴的修正動議來修正通過可以吧好謝謝那繼續來審查院版第27條對不起27條通過了抱歉來繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24132.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24154.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
院版第30條然後修正動議是第9案也是林月琴委員所提的修正動議那請行政機關做說明行政機關說明第30條委員們所關心的大概有幾個問題第一個就是我們雲端儲存的保存期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24155.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24174.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那我們行政機關定的是保存30天了那有委員提到國委員提到的是為什麼保留60天是不是有一些困難那第二個是有關於這個拖曳業者保管影像的這個資安的防護政府部門要如何確保這個監管員的資安的這個維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24175.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24191.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那第三個就是因為才化法的關係我們在原來的法條定的是中央機關應補助直轄縣市機關建置這個網際網路的雲端儲存的系統那經費上面會不會是有一些困難的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24192.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24210.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那還有委員也關心如何調閱的這些相關的事宜還有就是針對於監視錄影帶是不是有抽查的這個機制那我想我們行政部門就統一的說明第一個大概是在監視器錄影監視器保存的期限我們行政機關還是建議是30天因為從過去我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24213.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24232.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
這個發生事件不管是全國22縣市的調查跟處理大概在30天的影像儲存其實是可以做一些釐清因為通常多餘人員不當的對待他都有一個pattern所以其實是我們回看大概30天左右其實就可以查到所以應該是不需要保存到60天 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24233.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24252.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那林委員也建議是好像也是建議是可以保存30天就可以那另外一個就是那個補助的這個部分我們大概就是也考慮到說確實才化法有做的一些這個調整所以我們就把中央機關因補助改為得補助給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24253.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24272.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那另外林蔚群委員有提到的是監視錄影帶是不是要去抽查所以我們也在我們的原條文裡面增加了這個查閱條件還有抽查的機制我們增加了抽查機制這四個文字在我們的法條當中那另外就是對於監視錄影帶的這個調閱的這些我們將來會是在執法裡面會去做一個詳細的規定包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24277.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24300.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
資訊安全的這個部分我們都會做一些詳細的這個訂定在執法當中 以上說明好 請王玉敏委員有關於第30條 這一條也是蠻關鍵性的條文那包括之前其實有很多這個托孕機構負責人其實是蠻反彈的一個條文那現在經過溝通然後有一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24302.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24305.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我覺得這個條文應該是要通過但是你們把它改成這樣子把原來中央主管機關的責任應補助這個直轄市縣市主管機關建置前向網際網路系統把它改成德我覺得這個知識體大為什麼講知識體大現在各縣市的財政我真的跟大家講是不一樣的六都跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24325.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24348.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
像這個嘉義縣這個財政很困難的那種財政五級的那是完全不一樣的你今天把它因本來是中央主管機關的責任不管你在哪一個縣市你現在的這些網際網路設備你都可以就是統一性的該補助就補助你現在把它改成得之後那請問你要怎麼補助法 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24349.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24368.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那些財政很困難的縣市如果他今天又編不出這筆錢然後這些脫穎阻攬機關其實這些又反彈那應該要怎麼做這件事情應該是要統一做法而不應該是個性歧視如果有些縣市跟你說我編不出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24369.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24384.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那怎麼辦那個反彈會更大所以我覺得在這件事情上面原來的版本你剛剛講的是才化法但是那個竹東泰院長也講了才化法修改過他沒有要這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24385.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24401.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那所以代表行政權很大那你們行政權還是可以編列這筆預算就是讓地方政府在這件事真的把它做好因為你這一些因應你新的規定大家都要有新的設備然後會增加支出如果今天中央不扛這個責任的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24403.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24420.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我只能說你這個條文過了之後反而是添亂喔會很亂喔所以我這一個把這個原來的因你們的版本是因所有委員的版本都是因你今天用一個臨時動議直接把它改成德我覺得太粗糙而且你們沒有跟各縣市去討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24422.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24441.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
如果沒有我們本來是好意這個托育專法通過然後也知道說第一線執行的困難縣市的困難我們要好好去做結果你這邊把它翻盤我只能說你這樣子恐怕日後的爭議會很大事實上行政院還是有很大的這個資源跟條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24443.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24458.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
他可以優先決定什麼事情是該做的而整部的托育專法裡面如果我們認為保存30天然後雲端儲存是這麼重要的一件事情那請大家不要開玩笑就是把這個因改成德這個我們絕對是反對好 謝謝王委員的意見那林玉琴委員再換林總務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24470.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24487.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
我贊成現在衛福部提的版本變成是那個抽查機制因為我的目標也是這樣不過剛剛講到因跟得因為這寫法條的時候之前事實上是裁判法還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24488.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24509.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
通過的時候那現在通過之後如果地方已經拿到拿掉4198億的時候那本來基礎性建設本來就是應該要地方就要去直接而且攸關該縣市的孩子的權益怎麼可能不做呢那如果而且用得的話就表示說如果財力比較弱的 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24510.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
24535.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
縣市的話那一樣中央還是可以去貼補並不是會置之不理啊可是因的話就是一定要要這樣那可是今天的錢費用上不管是計劃型或一般型補助整個錢就已經沒辦法統統分費款就拿多拿了4198億本來地方該做的就應該去做所以我不認為說應該要回到說用因以上謝謝再請林書文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
24537.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
24566.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
好 應該這麼說我們第一次財化法修法的時候好像地方多了4198億那這一次的修法再增加2000億所以一共地方政府全部多了6200億左右那平均一個地方政府沒有200億也有300億那你說中央少了這6000多億所以我們不要說中央一定就沒能力也不要說地方就一定有能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
24566.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
24581.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以我們把彈性就放在德那為什麼不用擔心太多呢我想這個事情是社會大家都在監督地方政府如果有錢他卻不編列他可以不我一直要想跟大家講就是說問責民主的體制問責的方式並不是說一定要法律怎麼寫進去才可以怎麼可以其實不只他還有政治上可以問責 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
24594.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
24617.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
如果地方政府有錢不編列也有地方議員可以監督然後人民會看嘛那中央如果有足夠的資源不編列那大家也可以問責政治問責很簡單四年選一次很簡單啊有沒有錢有沒有彈性大家就攤在陽光下讓人民自己去決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
24618.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
24641.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所以法律不一定要把他寫死的原因是在這裡有錢他就拿出來給大家做那你有錢還故意裝我想這個東西立委在這裡也不是當假的大家我們的責任就是要找出他明明有錢花在別的地方就花在這裡然後就不願意給那講出來後就政治責任大家就知道你就家長會饒得過無 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
24644.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
24660.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
這個當權者嗎或是講出來後大家會覺得地方政府這樣子大家就無所謂了嗎我是說問責的方式是很多元的不是一定要說直接寫死了沒有彈性大家得的話就是可以有也可以沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
24661.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
24671.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
所以也沒有到那種程度說應該強迫一律都應你叫他少了6200億了你叫他連舉債可能連舉債都違法了那並不是說行政院院長他就他不遵守是說他的附屬權他要不要附屬我覺得我認為他應該會附屬的啦然後到底可不可以附屬要不要附屬也是他們的決定另外呢這個還有憲法可以遵守這個憲法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
24690.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
24710.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那要看人家如果你的才化法兩次修法修到最後是要違法的再繼續舉債的話那當然他會有他的考量但是我們這裡考量是只有這個法律只有兒童小孩的權益那德的話也是可以有不是阿英的話就是失去彈性啊這個我不堅持啊你們大家決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
24711.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
24727.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
好我們再請王毓民委員之後再請陳昭志委員我想這件事情剛剛淑芬委員講到後面她說我們應該回到怎麼樣做是對孩子最好我覺得就回到這個初衷不要把事情弄混不要把才化法的事情拿到這邊來討論我們剛剛從前面的討論到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
24732.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
24747.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
因為這個改變了這個改變了原來大家為什麼都是陰的版本大家想想看每個人都提啊連行政院自己提出來都是陰的版本我剛已經講過這件事情其實當時要推動也不是那麼容易很多的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
24748.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
24764.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
拖音中心的負責人他們是連署他們開記者會他們是反彈的他們就說要增加他們很多的那個設備那縣市政府應該跟他們一起合作那縣市政府如果要跟他們一起合作去補助這些設施設備這個也是必要的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
24765.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
24783.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那你如果基於你整個的政策你真的要落實推動讓它穩定由中央來出不管你地方財政的多寡資源的多寡我一律中央扛起來就是這件事情我就是要徹底去落實因為今天兒托專法也是行政院提出來的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
24784.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
24809.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那我個人就認為應該就是負責到底嘛中央扛起來嘛那你至於其他的才化法你還有其他什麼地方建設其他什麼款項那個我都不管但是回到這件事情上面你如果要事情是好好的落實跟推動的話那不應該把原來的這個因的版本直接就改了一個字變成是得啊讓他整個亂掉啊那我們可以問一下未來要當縣市首長的人可以接受嗎對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
24811.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
24839.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
就是我們在座也有這個已經被提名的我們的召委也可能是未來的雲林縣縣長就一個地方首長的角度你可以接受中央政府這樣子嗎就把責任丟了然後就看中央臉色今天中央說你很乖然後我就可以補助你那你今天不乖我可能錢就不要給你讓他增加了不確定性這個是我們要的嗎我覺得今天兒童專法今天回到這邊就是怎麼樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
24839.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
24854.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
其實對於這部法的落實是最好的方案那我還是主張就是應該回到原來的就是中央主管機關你統一做法這個才是最好的方案所以我的主張還是應該要維持因那如果大家有意見我們就保留好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
24856.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
24868.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
好 謝謝王委員的說法晚之後陳昭志委員再請國務委員再來就是王委員盡量不要為了全國的兒童我們盡量就不要提到選舉來 請陳昭志委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
24876.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
24898.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我想我們今天在審查法案也不是審查預算我們第一個我們今天在審查法案該怎麼寫它的初衷第一點是怎樣第二個用一個比較很general的概念這樣子要來處理這一項特別這一項我是覺得不太適合那第三個就是說不然就請衛福部告訴我們哪幾個縣市說他寫個德他寫個因有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
24899.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
24926.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
我們去了解一下就是說當然就是因就是因因為今天在立法又以兒童最佳利益的為優先就是我們先回到這個地方真的有困難的我不知道就是這樣每個都還沒評估都還沒問就是說我們先不要再吵我們過去之前大家彼此也許都犯過的一些問題好嗎就回到立法初衷回到立法初衷我們今天不在審預算在立法初衷謝謝好謝謝再請郭委員王老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
24931.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
24949.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
主席這一條喔因為我提的是那個附帶決議那雖然大家剛剛一直講就是回到我們的這個立法的一個初衷就是以兒少的這個權益或者是以最重要的一個部分但是我想這個跟預算還有資源其實也是息息相關那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
24951.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
24972.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
附帶決議的部分其實我是因為就是擔心這個資安的管理的一個疏漏跟人力資源的不足然後另外就是在完成的一個隱私保護的一個機制那在三讀過後是不是能夠請這個衛福部我們提出這個三個月之內有一些配套的措施能夠來確保這個托育的安全給兒童的一個權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
24974.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
24991.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
讓這個從業人員他們的權益其實也能夠達到一個很平的一個保障那第一點其實就是這個建立兒童的隱私的一個分級的一個保護那也明定這個家長在調閱影像範圍跟程序當中其實也要兼顧那個比例上的一個原則跟隱私權的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
24991.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25013.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
阿第二點的部分其實是資安的管理跟專責人力的一個強化那這個部分其實就跟預算息息相關到底我們有沒有這個錢可以做這個專責人力的一個補強那第三點就是托育人員的這個心理健康跟工作上的一個支持啦那也要明確的去訂立這個設監製器錄影設備的一個合理的一個範圍然後避免這個過度的一個壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25014.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25043.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那第四點就是前端的一個預防跟資源的一個配置喔那我想這個部分其實也要兼顧這個監視的一個設備跟托育人力的一個橫屏那我想的不是只有靠這個所謂的這個事後的一些影像來做追溯那第五點其實就是政策我們要怎麼樣能夠落實然後每一年要是不是也可以提出一些政策檢討跟一個報告這個所以這個第30條我提出的是一個附帶決議的部分以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25044.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25066.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
好 謝謝郭委員 那個王振旭委員 晚之後再換李副委員 謝謝謝謝主席雖然那個時候我還沒有在立法院工作不過我們還是可以稍微把這個背景重新回憶一下不長的時間就是其實在依照這個兒童及少年福利法跟權益保障法第77條之一的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25068.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25088.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
為了要因應這個拖影中心監視影像到底怎麼處理比較適當他們有去透過開公聽會當中有去處理一些數據包括那個時候全國有1652家的拖影中心均依法裝設這個監視錄影設備那個時候已經有處理到這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25092.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25112.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那在112年6月28號又在根據這個部分呢得到的5418人互議成案說需要能夠依照家長的期待來建立中央建制雲端資料庫所以那個時候其實大家對這個是有所期待那在113年就編列了2.5億元來處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25117.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25135.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那現在我們不知道說再過來如果有相關的費用的話那到底是中央或者是應該地方主管機關共同來促成這個是剛剛大家在討論的事情這是有關於剛剛在有關於德阿英等等的這些討論的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25136.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
25160.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
不過針對第30條我們也非常清楚我們辦公室也非常關心這30第30條這個影像保存的制度應該如何能夠運作的更完整所以我們在這邊有提出了三個重點再跟各位委員來討論一下現在第30條的第4項我們還是認為說不管他是一個定期追蹤檢查或者是抽查相關的影像保存 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
25161.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
25187.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
是的確很重要因為我們之前的案例發現很多人就說影像壞掉了也不曉得什麼時候壞掉了所以到底是要定期追蹤檢查或者是用抽查的方式比較適當大家可以再多考慮看看那我們是希望能夠用定期的追蹤檢查會比較好如果用抽查的話也不曉得他會不會被抽查到等等這個部分等一下大家還可以再確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
25188.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
25209.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那另外就是說這些已經儲存下來的這些影像什麼時候可以來應用那最重要就是說如果有涉及到RNA等不當對待的在這個46-1的這些法條之下地方主管機關應該要保存這個影像至少到這個案件終結三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
25211.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
25240.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
他不需要一直保存可是至少如果有發生案件的話呢當下就要讓他保存下來可以讓家長有調閱的權利或者是相關人員有調閱的權利所以這個調閱權也是我們非常重視的那這個調閱權的內容就必須要有好的執法去規範它所以針對這三個部分我們辦公室很希望透過委員共同來認同也把這個內容可以放到這個母法裡面以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
25242.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
25244.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
好 謝謝王委員接下來請林淑媛之後再請林警員 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
25248.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
25271.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我再說一次這個本來是兒托法但是因為我們這裡訂了一條說中央主管機關應要補助職甲就是補助地方政府建置網際網路的系統那我們這樣講意思是說其實地方政府都不用都沒有責任嗎那地方政府只是叫你們出一筆錢來建置這個網際網路系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
25273.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
25293.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
有這麼困難嗎另外呢我們有道理去幫如果有錢的地方政府我們去幫他們出錢這樣幫有錢的地方政府出錢的結果不就是排擠了沒有錢縣市的補助嗎所以在這種狀況裡面再分配的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
25293.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
25307.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
沒有而且排擠的資源弱勢的地方政府的資源老實說可能我們必須要補助地方弱勢的地方政府的更多那你像台北市這次修法以後兩次修法以後至少增加500億吧讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
25310.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
25339.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
從中央多拿了500億你叫他去建置一套網際網路的儲存的系統會真的沒有錢嗎而需要我們再幫錦上添花的去幫這些有錢的地方政府再補助應補助而再補助嗎但是我要回過頭來講就是說反正這個條文最重要的是是後續的影像的保存這個後續的影像的保存我現在講地方政府很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
25339.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
25361.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
出問題的不是說買一套設備啊花多少錢真正最大的問題是影像的保存的這個問題要不然這一個大型的影像資料庫有可能是一個大型的創意私房喔你知道拖音中心啊那裡面廁所是沒有分開的都是直接在鏡頭下面的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
25361.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
25386.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
然後通通都可以駭進去看的喔所以這個事情是很重大的責任所以我們要問責於說有錢的地方政府我們也應該要叫到也應該補助給台北市這樣的想法之前不如我們應該花更多時間來討論的是這個影像後續的保存應該要怎麼樣的配套要求他們做到什麼樣的程度這可能是更這件事情裡面最重要的好 謝謝 今夜請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
25392.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
25416.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
陳柔剛才王振旭委員提的事實上前面就已經編列 相信113年就已經2.5億元而且全國的1652家的拖延中心都已經依法裝了所以我覺得這寫得也還好是說因為有需要的地方要做那如果有需要他還是可以跟中央而不是一定要去由中央來支付這筆錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
25417.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
25445.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
另外一個我要澄清我這邊寫抽查機制剛剛證據委員提到說為什麼不是定期因為就是要抽查才會知道到底他們有哪些時段事實上是違反我們的相關規定的如果事實上是定期定時的話這樣子根本看不到問題點那他大概就會在這個時間點去避開那就沒有辦法真正的去掌控到 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
25446.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
25473.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
孩子在托嬰中心違反托嬰中心是不是有違反照顧的一些方式所以我覺得這個抽查機制我的列的是期待要這樣子是減少掉一些問題因為我們還是預防生育治療如果沒有這樣的抽查等到出事的時候才知道回過頭來像我過去看回過頭來看那一整個月基本上這個托嬰中心基本上都是有很多問題的他對孩子照顧方式常常是讓孩子獨處的 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
25474.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
25495.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
可是如果因為有透過這樣的一個抽查機制的話可以知道他已經有一些狀況那我們可以要求他改善才不會後來孩子死亡之後你要去救者是沒有意義的所以我覺得這個蠻重要的所以我的附帶決議裡面對第30條的附帶決議我也特別在強調這一塊所以我不知道就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
25496.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
25506.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
剛剛衛福部在報告的時候並沒有把我的附帶決議說要把它放入所以希望我的附帶決議在針對第30條我認為是要放入的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
25507.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
25511.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我要求主管機關說明幾件事情第一件事情就是說這個法條通過之後所有的管理是中央的責任還是是地方政府的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
25529.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
25543.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
因為其實就我知道都是地方政府在管理那中央就是只要立法然後都是地方在做事今天叫你們補助個設備然後就說不可以喔後面的管理才是重責大任這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
25544.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
25567.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
真的就是这样子第二件事情你们应该讲清楚现行的这些拖曳机构他们设的这些设备将来要上传到云端他们有一些规格是不是符合他是不是需要重新建制他的设备然后地方政府到底要建制这套设备要花多少钱第三件事情是你们当时 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
25568.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
25595.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
政院的版本是因然後跟地方政府都說你要補助你今天改成德請問你有跟徵詢過地方政府的意見嗎有開過會嗎如果有開過會是什麼時候我是覺得作為中央政府機關也不可以不負責任今天任意性的因改成德然後就改成德這樣然後就要這樣子通過有沒有跟地方政府商量如果所有的事情都是要地方政府來做來執行的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
25596.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
25606.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那請問中央政府你負什麼責任又不補助設備管理也不歸你們管然後就是直接這樣立了法條通過中央跟地方的關係應該不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
25608.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
25632.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
應該是要共同商議吧那有沒有商議我要確認的是最後這一點你們要把因改成德的時候有沒有跟地方政府開過會議那讓地方政府充分去反應他現在會遇到的困難是什麼立法都很簡單但是立法通過之後要落實的確才是重點如果你沒有跟地方政府好好去溝通協調這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
25634.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
25649.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
這個真的我覺得如果按照現在這樣的修正通過之後絕對是天亂我必須先講在前面那國民黨的意見就是如果是要得的這個版本我們就是保留這個這個委員會我們不贊成再請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
25654.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
25669.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
謝謝主席我們在審法案所以我們回顧到第5條剛剛我們通過的中央主管機關掌理下列事項那麼其中大概第3第4都提到了中央托育服務經費是分配及補助托育服務輔導獎勵補助及評鑑之規劃這裡就是中央機關的這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
25676.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
25688.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
全責 應該是責任這裡已經陳述得非常清楚所以我也剛剛我上一回這個提問的時候也提到就是說這件事情不應該就是在會議室當委會的討論當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
25692.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
25712.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
沒有數據依據的或是也沒有經過跟地方各地方這種溝通的時候就把這個破壞了整個這個立法的精神那我也請中央機關衛福部這邊就是請看第五條你們的責任是什麼那另外剛剛這個月行委員他提到那個隨機抽查機制這個是一個非常好的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
25713.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
25728.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那我很支持但是這個是會變成是台灣最嚴格的一個做法但是這個才能看到真相沒有錯那我以前我在醫院評鑑在很多地方我都要求就是說不預期的就是說不預警不不預警的去抽查一些重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
25729.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
25755.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
這個我們才能看到真相絕對不不然就會像邱太元他去看了當天去看了那個急診用賽然後就說已經緩解了結果現在到今天都不可能解決因為沒有看到真相醫院聽到他要他要長官要視訊那立刻把這個病人都往上也就是馬上來處理掉把這現場就看不到真相那這個精神隨機抽樣機制我是支持但是我必須請說很嚴因為我在其他的法條也希望有個這麼嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
25756.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
25773.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
就是比照類似金融機關金融機關查金庫的時候是非常嚴格的他根本不通知一大早就在門口等鐵門一開他衝進去查因為那是最重要的一個部分那就是有中央政府部分麻煩衛生部請你好好再讀一次第五條你們的責任謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
25775.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
25793.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
好 謝謝林業勤委員講完之後再換王振旭委員 謝謝這個是監視錄影的錄下來之後的抽查並不是去現場抽查為什麼要抽查因為如果一個拖延中心30天 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
25794.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
25811.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
你只有去抽的時候你才知道說有沒有哪些天他有些出現問題因為我剛剛講說今天不是等孩子死後我們回過頭來去看那些影像沒有意義為什麼因為事實上前面就看到整個托孕中心搞不好照顧孩子的行為上甚至托孕人員對孩子就已經有不當對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
25813.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
25832.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
可是抽查就可以發現說有不當對待我們可以馬上處理不是等到孩子死之後我們再去看一個月有用嗎而且托醫院中心坦白講比幼兒園更大的問題不是不當對待有時候是致死率的問題所以我認為為什麼要去抽查講嚴格 對我們本來就要用最高等級來保護我們孩子的安全不是嗎 以上好 請王正希委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
25839.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
25858.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
謝謝主席 其實還是釐清一下這個追蹤檢查跟抽查我們心目中的不一樣的地方我瞭解葉學文委員很希望能夠用抽查這樣的機制去看內容到底有沒有發生對兒童不當對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
25859.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
25873.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
想要透過這個既存的影像去看內容這個就是抽查的想法那我們所謂的追蹤檢查意思就是說至少我們要知道從有錄影設備然後這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
25875.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
25904.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
影像已經存到系統裡面那這個系統必須要不斷的存在在至少至少在保存期限裡面要不斷的存在就是用追蹤的方式只要他有上去就知道他已經在系統裡面所以我們可以追蹤檢查是希望這樣的系統的這個存在是符合規定的這是我們想要確定的我們不希望說他的設備壞掉了結果不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
25906.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
25931.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
所以才要用定期的追蹤去掌握到系統本身他的這個可以依照規定在運作至於裡面是不是有發生不當的對待用抽查機制那個是OK的所以基本上是不一樣的概念是 謝謝好 這一案大家也都懷疑超過兩三次以上那各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
25933.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
25949.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
如果有意見那我們就保留了喔好 謝謝好 繼續的有跟地方政府開過會嗎要請他們回答嗎 好應該是沒有吧 答案就是好不讓他們回答了喔 好 謝謝繼續來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
25955.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
25966.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
這個院版第34條然後修正動議第三案我們一併來審查 請行政機關做說明第三案是陳情惠委員的案 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
25967.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
25993.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
第34條陳金威委員建議刪除我們院版的條文的第6款的收費退費項目及金額兩個字但是因為現在地方主管機關跟托育機構他本來就要公告他的收費的一個金額所以這個實務執行上並沒有困難所以我們就沒有參加委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
25994.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
26023.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那林瑞琴委員提到的要依第33條所定的衛生安全跟緊急事件的處理措施那我們在前面第31條就已經有說明托育機構要定管理計畫那管理計畫裡面包括所有的安全衛生啊各項設施設備的安全啊以及各項安全措施的演練都已經在第31條裡面做規範了所以我們建議就按照我們原本的條文的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
26024.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
26047.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那至於林院勤委員建議說要增列托育機構行政組織跟員額編制的情形那因為我們考量托育機構的行政組織跟員額這個是托育機構內部的一個事項是不是有必要一定要在這裡定出來然後讓托育機構公開這樣的資訊那我們是建議說可能還是按照托育機構自己的一個處理的方式去規範就不參採 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
26050.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
26058.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
那至於其他委員的意見原則上都是按照我們院版的文字去做處理那以上說明各位委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
26093.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
26101.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
請威福部說明一下 因為我的版本是有那個托育機構行政組織及員額編制情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
26105.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
26129.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
你們後來版本是沒有跟委員說明因為那個托育機構的行政組織跟原額這個是托育機構的內部事項所以我們考量因為這一條他佩戴定有罰則所以我們是建議不申列因為我當時為什麼會列在這邊說要公開因為過去呢很常事上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
26129.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
26150.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
你人如果沒有這樣子的一個訊息的話家長根本不知道他人員編制跟配的班級的狀態裡面常常會配不起來等到發生事情的時候才會知道所以為什麼要有這樣的一個公開情形是讓大家知道說每一個班配的老師甚至老師的那個資格專業資格是什麼是 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
26160.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
26180.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
對最大問題就像淑芬委員提的就是那個超收的家長對不起來可是如果你去對人的話那個小班或是豆豆班或者是小草班或什麼班那可以去配搭那個老師的時候才會清楚所以我不知道你們如果不列的困難到底在哪邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
26181.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
26210.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
主要是因為這個托育機構的樣態其實蠻多元有的是混零有的是分兩歲之前他會分譬如說十個月的幾個月的那有的是會讓他在一起所以他有可能是因應他現在入托的孩子的年齡他會去做調整所以變成如果我們說他這一定要公開就是他每天他可能一段時間我相信不會到每天因為孩子成長的速率因為我們現在基本上你們上次一直在講的是說沒有班 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
26210.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
26224.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
台灣的托嬰中心幾乎還是用班的概念對 我們不是班群的概念可是他應該是空間上他會分可是他有的孩子是混齡的大的跟小的在一起那有的是會用兩歲之前他會分成三個年齡層來照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
26226.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
26250.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
不過還是會有哪個老師去照顧哪些小孩可是過去常常會變成是有時候老師沒有這個老師可是他因為總量給家長感覺事實上是沒有就讓家長感覺上說好像事實上是這個人數上是合於規定可是基本上不是他在照顧配比的時候就不太合於規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
26251.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
26267.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以我們才會說如果你把它分裂清楚的話我相信不會變動這麼大當然沒有辦法像幼兒園說那一年才變動一次可是至少我去半年還有可能也不會每個月有變動所以我認為這不會是執行上有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
26276.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
26299.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
所以不知道你們執著的點到底是在哪主要的是因為考慮到那個發財老就是說他有可能變動譬如說他0到20歲孩子的變動因為我們在托育補助裡面其實可以看到他如果孩子不適應他其實就會帶回去或者是轉托所以他有可能這個是會變動那因為如果我們去查的時候他其實公告的跟我實際狀況不一樣他來不及變動其實他要被處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
26299.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
26323.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
所以換句話說他的頻率是不是也許不見得是每天可是他不見得是半年他有可能是一段時間一個月或者是半個月他就必須要調整隨時必須調整所以這件事情我們也是考慮到托育機構其實他真的主要的工作他應該是要照顧好孩子如果這麼多的行政工作都被要求的時候而且有罰則的時候會不會對他是造成一些負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
26328.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
26356.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
可是這也是預防的一種因為我們本來就期待是說家長一起來監督就是說今天如果說很多又會變成說政府管理不周可是實際上每天家長他在面對孩子的一個拖延中心他就比較會比政府部門更清楚知道相關的資訊那如果他這樣會去了解到現場的人甚至有沒有超收的問題我覺得目前現在現況也是超收的狀況並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
26359.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
26383.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
沒有那你政府又不能掌握可是每次常常都是出事之後我們再來檢討檢討沒有用啊孩子都嚴重受傷或者甚至死亡的時候你再去檢討有時候就是人數配比不夠的時候反而容易延伸意外傷害或事故傷害那為什麼不是管控在前面讓家長知道之後他可以去監督管理而不是每一次你三年才評鑑一次像托嬰中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
26384.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
26405.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
然後平常的事實上是所謂的訪視輔導那個時間點又不多所以就變成說很多時候出事又覺得事實上是政府要負責任那怎麼不是把責任回到家長然後讓家長一起來跟我們監督管理呢所以我還是要問那個困難到底在哪邊還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
26411.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
26437.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那我想剛剛林委員講的我覺得我們可能應該是那我們就把它加進去那就是要求托育機構要配合不好意思那個副助就是我們把它就是他列為他要公開的資訊這樣子要求托育機構配合好那就把可不可以把條列出來給我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
26440.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
26463.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
就是照林月琴委員的文字嗎對然後順序就放在第四款第四款之後的第五款就是行政院版本的那我們第34條就依行政院提案及委員林月琴提案修正通過確定一下文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
26485.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
26505.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
這個有一個問題就是說跟著這一條東西因公開事項增加了這個以後他的條罰則就會定在69條那69條這樣一定下去的話他就直接開罰了沒有限期改善嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
26505.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
26528.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
那但是就是說像會發生一個問題就是說托嬰中心會把托兒的月齡分班但是因為0到2歲的發展變化比較快所以分班上會變動比較快那如果稍微沒有隨著改就馬上被開罰而不是限期改善這樣子的確是會有一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
26530.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
26553.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
因為你就是要公開你沒有公開然後就開罰沒有限期改善然後這個幼兒園不會不像幼兒園幼幼班到小班會花一年但是嬰兒托嬰中心大家就可能真的是比較容易變動可能幾個月就變動一次就改一次沒有跟上直接開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
26555.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
26584.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
啊這個配套上應該怎麼做我不是反對喔但是說配套上應該怎麼做因為他會連動到罰則第69條的罰則直接開罰那我們配套要真的這麼嚴格像幼兒園的部分不是幼兒園啦托嬰中心的部分直接開罰要這麼嚴格嗎啊如果不要的話要怎麼處理啊如果要我也不堅持只是說要這麼嚴我也沒意見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
26587.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
26605.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
我等如果會覺得這樣那是不是要到69條的時候再去討論因為署任委員聚焦的事實上是針對於那個我不是反對公開而是說在托嬰中心裡面的那個月齡分班他是月齡去分班的嘛那他分班你公告的數據跟實際的數據可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
26608.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
26622.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
不对因为几个月月龄就公布一次你没有马上几个月就更正一次托婴中心有这么多的行这么好的行政效率马上可以更正吗那没有的话以前还有限期改善那现在没有限期改善直接开法 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
26623.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
26644.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那那這樣子會不會很嚴格啦在執行面上真的是會不會造成他們很大的行政成本那我們到底是要怎麼樣我也不堅持但是就是說69條在討論就是說我不反對公開啦但是處罰和限期改善這樣的機制有辦法再透過69條就就就那個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
26649.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
26674.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
就是其他都還好了其他都是比較重要的這34條的其他款都是比較重要的事項這個淑芬委員講的其實也有道理就是說應該要符合那個比例原則因為如果看到你69條你前面處罰的這一些通常也都是比較我們覺得很重要的應該要做才會直接開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
26676.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
26703.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
那至於公開這一個你的章程跟這個新增加的這個原額編制特別是原額編制我想這是應該揭露但是不至於到是直接用直接開發而且如果他有變動性的話你會以什麼為依據就是是不符合實質的編制嗎還是因為他的確會有那個更動性變動性高的時候他可能只是疏忽 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
26704.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
26722.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那如果少了一個緩衝的機制直接就開罰的確剛剛淑芬委員提醒的也蠻好會不會有過眼對這個也是我們行政部門剛剛考慮到也有跟委員報告其實因為是有罰則了好就說而且我們在兩歲之前他其實混搬剛剛有提到其實他孩子因為我們的時間很短 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
26723.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
26746.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
其实他有可能是就要换班了好这件事情那有一些是让大的孩子跟小的孩子是在一起那而且我们各县市的抽查的这个访托应中心我们几乎都是不预警所以这件事情其实就是我们县市的访查人员去到的时候如果这个资讯是要公开的他不合他们其实就会开罚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
26747.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
26764.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
因為他有可能今天變動可是還來不及作業因為有可能孩子就是剛好剛談到是他變化可是早上就去查核然後發現他就不跟公告的資訊是不符合那依照我們現在的這個條文69條其實就是直接開罰這樣子行政組織不會那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
26776.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
26777.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
緣和編制的確它有變動性 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
26781.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
26807.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
可是真正變動性大概也不會像剛剛各位講的一個月就要去會變動啦那否則就要回來問是說那在什麼樣的地方你可以要求去公開當然我們也沒有覺得說你要配合法則可是沒有這個一個公開訊息的話往往過去不做那事實上超收的狀況根本沒有辦法解決因為家長也沒辦法預警也沒辦法去去了解到他們有超收因為跟老師的人是配不起來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
26808.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
26835.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
當的確你會講說我前面已經有托育相關人員了然後後面也有講是說收托的人數可是這樣不會去配對這個東西甚至有時候這個人呢如果沒有事實上是清楚的去配搬讓老師讓家長知道的話往往有時候這些名單搞不好都有虛假的名單可是如果有這樣子的一個搭配行政組織跟員額的整個搭配下來的話就會比較讓家長事實上是比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
26835.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
26860.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
所以我不反對說如果不要立案這條沒問題可是要在哪邊我覺得可能我們的衛福部這邊是不是可以提出我對這一點蠻堅持的可是因為搭配罰則的確會像蘇芬委員講的那可能一次沒有做到馬上就去開罰那可是有沒有什麼其他的機制可以去否則就是這一條先保留等回來你們有沒有其他的那個我們再回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
26861.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
26875.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
就是說公開是可以是好事啦但是說在處罰上面要不要拿幾個比較情節輕微的是可以緩衝的哪幾些是一定要立即開罰的要不要分級去管理這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
26884.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
26902.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
衛福部有沒有資源 沒有的話我們就先行保留我們先保留 先想一下 因為我們目前的修法對於托育機構的違法全部都是先開罰 沒有說叫他先改所以如果這一條是要讓他就跟我們原來的不太一樣我們先保留 我們想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
26918.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
26922.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
接下來是陳培宇委員40條跟林淑芬委員的42條 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
26927.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
26953.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
那個跟委員報告這一條我們在行政部門的條文裡面是是沒有的那我們是因為我們剛剛原來在前面的第七條跟第八條我們對於中央第五條第六條中央主管機關地方主管機關是已經有規範要協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
26954.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
26981.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那林淑芬委員跟柴培委員這個規定是大概是對於要協助他成立的這個組織有訂了一些相關的規定這樣子那我們是建議是說如果委員覺得這是可以我們也是個行政部門是可以採納就把它再列列加進來可是調次的部分就要再調整委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
26987.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
26993.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
那這條條次還沒辦法 可是就照委員林淑芬等25人提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
27010.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
27023.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
接下來陳培宇委員第41條跟林淑芬委員的43條 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
27039.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
27065.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
林委員的版本跟陳培宇委員的版本還有陳慶輝委員的版本個別不同的是在序文的部分那一個是針對機構托育人員一個是針對托育專業人員那我們都參採委員提出來的版本所以我們的文字是把居家托育人員跟機構托育人員並列 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
27068.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
27088.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
都應成年並具備下列資格之一那至於林淑芬委員跟陳培鈺委員提到居家托育服務中心的工作人員資格要由中央主管機關定之那我們因為前面的第一項的文字有做修正所以我們在第二項的文字也並同修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
27089.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
27109.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那剛剛有提到托育相關的人員包含托育機構的工作人員是不是我們這邊也要一併做處理就是托育相關人員及居家托育服務中心工作人員之資格及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之那以上說明請委員確認一下現在螢幕上打的字眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
27135.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
27149.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
抱歉 因為我們本來是講居家托育人 居家相關人員及居家托育服務中心工作人員的資格因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
27152.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
27182.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
名詞定義就是在托育專業人員就有包含主管人員進去所以我們是不是能夠用托育專業人員否則的話好像沒有把主管放進去那托育的主管人員到也應該要具備這些資格吧主管不是負責人是主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
27184.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
27199.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
所以是不是照我們的版本就是托育專業人員應具備下面的職格那最後才是居家托育服務中心的工作人員資格由這個中央主管機關訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
27204.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
27226.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
就是像托嬰中心的主管人員如果沒有托育的職能他有辦法管理現場嗎不是老闆 就是管理現場的人管理現場的人如果沒有托育的職能那這樣子是好的嗎如果我們都要這麼管理的話是不是連主管人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
27228.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
27243.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
這樣的寫法就是沒有包含主管人員那但是如果我們把它變成托育專業人員那就是包含了主管人員了差別就是在這裡要不要把主管人員納管啊我想應該是要的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
27245.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
27263.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
那個跟委員說明我們會這樣修改是因為我們有看到委員的第44條的提案是針對主管人員去規範資格那如果第44條也參加委員的意見那沒有做委員所提的第43條這個版本是要用托育專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
27264.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
27285.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
但是因為我們考量現在的主管人員他是定待授權法規所以才在做這樣的一個條文修正的時候特別把主管人員排除會在授權法規去處理那在這部法的這邊就是先定居家托育人員跟機構托育人員那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
27287.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
27303.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
可是像處分委員提到 結果你現在初步的只是針對於托育跟機構的托育人員可是相對主管到底什麼年資資格反而又要授權執法那為什麼會是主管反而沒在這邊訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
27304.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
27329.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
然後基礎的這樣一個管理者非常重要就是說他像過去幼兒園也是要多少年的年資才可以受園長的訓練才可以擔任就你授權執法又在這邊訂的比較事實上是基礎然後其他的人又不在這邊訂我覺得這有點很特別就是說只把居家托育人員跟機構托育人員列出來而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
27331.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
27356.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
謝謝委員的指教我想我們就是我們調整一下我們就是把前面的就是依照委員林淑芬委員的這個版本就是托育專業人員我們訂資格然後另外就是把托育托育主管的人員的資格也參照林委員的建議訂不過我們希望是在後面是因為主管人員的服務年資的認定及其他相關的採計 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
27358.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
27384.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
因為他依前條第二項所定的辦法是不是 你還要定辦法嗎所以你的這個條文你們應該是怎麼處理要參採我們的第一項就是托育專業人員納管嘛對不對托育專業人員那你其他工作人員都會漏了前面不是在講說廚師什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
27386.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
27397.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
沒有啦 這個不用管廚師這個就是現場在照顧的第一線的像托嬰中心的主任就是主管人員了 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
27399.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
27425.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
就是我們的第一項就是托育專業人員我們是建議要加第二項嘛因為第一項我們就照林委員講的托育專業人員的資格就是保姆技術師托育專業人員然後他就是高中以上相關科系嘛那另外一個因為我們還有對於居家因為居家托育中服務中心的工作人員好這個第二項他的資格可能就是不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
27426.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
27449.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
好對另外再授權給你們去訂所以我們要加第二項這樣子由中央主管機關訂之然後另外委員剛剛提到的是托育機構就是主管人員不是啊只要是托育專業人員就是含主管了啦對可是主管的版本就是啦主管的資格是不一樣的資格在下一條啊對資格在下一條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
27451.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
27473.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
就是有一條新的就是主管人員的資格這樣子那你就參考我們的下一條就可以了就是說這一條講的是托育專業人員函主管要把它函進去但主管不是只有這樣的資格主管還有下面更嚴格的不同的不同層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
27476.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
27502.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我先就叫衛福部因為過去托育中心跟幼兒園本來人是不互相留用的狀態因為考量到托育中心過去現在講托育中心照顧是0到2歲那幼兒園事實上是照顧家是3到6歲這樣子的一個訓練兩邊的機制是不一樣的可是你現在主管人員事實上是都OK那我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
27503.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
27531.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
因為培育委員跟淑芬委員的版本事實上是都OK那我說你們現在要全部參採嗎甚至安置機構的也要參採嗎因為安置機構更是不一樣那你現在有確定要這樣走嗎因為我是比較不太贊成因為這個過去的專業訓練就是就是說他們在照顧的孩子年齡層就差異非常大甚至安置機構更是那你現在要要一樣參採嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
27532.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
27548.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
我想你先確認說他的年資的採認是不是就是他是不是在安置機構小孩子的經驗裡邊就你現在要用月琴我們是不是在下一條對44條43條有決定好了嗎43條決定好了我們再來看44條43條3就照這樣子好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
27578.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
27585.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
就是在你前面第三條的定義你的托育專業人員是包含居家托育人員主管人員及機構托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
27590.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
27598.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
有包含主管所以你這一條原來原來你想涵蓋的範圍到底到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
27601.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
27628.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
因为你前面的定义你们前面定义你的托育专业人员工作人员跟托育相关人员他是就是层层套叠你的托育相关人员指负责人有一些是积极资格有一些是消极资格托育专业人员及工作人员你的相关人员你有把负责人专业人员跟工作人员通通都有涵盖进来那你的专业人员是有包含主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
27631.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
27633.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
專業人員本來就要包含主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
27641.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
27665.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
托育專業人員就含主管人員了所以是不是可以不用再謀法特別去規範主管人員的資格而由授權法規來定托育專業人員含主管人員拘托人員以及托育人員的資格原先的那個資格有很多層次有些積極資格有些是消極資格資格當然對應的不一樣這個講是托育專業但基本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
27669.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
27671.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
托育專業就是有托育人員和主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
27681.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
27707.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
這個是積極資格但我們希望還要再兼備下列資格這是44條43條我們是不是先可以同意我覺得43條跟44條會連動如果前面寫托育專業人員就已經含主管了定義前面那你又講說要這些然後等於後邊44條又加列說那主管那這樣子跟法之間是不是會有我到底要遵循哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
27709.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
27733.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
另外一個就是說如果44條訂的話這個就不應該是托育專業人員如果沒有要的話不要再訂44條那這邊他們還沒有通過他們也是保留因為那應該問我因為這是我們原本的設計但是呢他們就當時在審44條的時候當時行政部門並沒有同意我們的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
27738.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
27752.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
好 那個跟委員報告我們大概再說明一下剛剛我們就是因為托育專業人員就誠如委員剛剛提到我們其實在名詞的定義裡面托育專業人員是指居家托育人員主管人員及機構托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
27753.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
27768.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
所以我們在行政部門的版本在這一條參採委員的意見所以我們是把把托育專業人員委員的版本的托育專業人員我們定為是居家托育人員及機構托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
27769.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
27789.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
這個是大概是在我們這一條的第一項是這樣訂的那我們第二項呢其實就寫了托育專業人員局因為我們在這個領域裡面還有居家托育服務中心的工作人員所以他也有一些資格的問題所以我們在第二項就是這個是由我們中央訂執法來規範這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
27791.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
27808.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
對我說主管自為關鍵結果又反而是主管是要去執法來規範然後我們的居家托育人員機構的托育人員層次上比較低的又放在母法裡邊這很少這樣子就是說強度因為管理者才是更為重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
27808.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
27830.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
那反而在這邊沒有訂所以我認為應該要如果要訂就是要脫鉤一個就是像你前向的就是居家托育人員及機構的托育人員要哪些資格然後才有辦法去訂第44條你只要把工作人員居家就托育服務中心的工作人員資格去授權執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
27831.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
27856.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
那還算OK可是這樣子才有必要再去訂主管而且我覺得主管一定要訂那才會有培育委員跟淑芬委員的第44條等下再來討論可是如果你一旦寫了前面寫了居家應該講的托育專業人員的話那抱歉主管又訂進去那也很奇怪可是你寫這樣子的話一樣你又把主管授權執法我覺得這兩個都不通 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
27858.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
27882.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
我可不可以再說明一下月琴就是說我們和托盟的這個版本的意思是說它有很多層的這第一層是基本款43條就是基本款就是所有托育專業的人員都要有的基本保姆資格或相關科系畢業就是大家都要有專業的人員大家都要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
27882.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
27909.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
那43條基本款以外呢44條就講到主管了他是43條還要再加上年資和特別要求所以這個第二層就要疊上去就是說他還要其他的資格就是44條本來就是第一層再疊上第二層所以更嚴格的標準所以主管就不是只有第一層的標準還要加上第二層的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
27910.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
27937.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
所以在這裡是托育的基本款再加上年資然後再加上他的相關的這個受訓練這樣子這個就像教保員一樣教保的體系就是這樣子教保員不會一定可以不一定可以直接當院長教保員也是要加年資再加受訓才可以當院長那我們希望這個托育機構的主管就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
27938.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
27954.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
托育人員這個資格再加上特別的資格這樣子所以是兩層疊上去的那主管一定是比一般的這個居家托育比一般的托育人員還要更嚴格這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
27956.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
27985.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
可是這樣寫就要請那個衛福部自己解釋因為在第一層只要高中然後到第二層要大學是這樣嗎因為如果我我連我認為主管前面我你寫我我高中就可以然後現在後來後邊的那個又不是說年資如果說今天因為主管我們要求年資你的第一層基礎我高中畢業就可以然後這邊只是講年資還好可是沒有的話跟目前現在提出來的托盟版本會是第一層高中 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
27986.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
28011.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
進來的 要大學不會 你前面就說我可以我可以作為主管那就變成有一點事實上是好 這樣講好了這樣子比較像是說主管一定要由這個托育體系的人員上去的這樣的養成就像教保員的園長教保員年資授訓我當然是希望是這樣的體系上去不要空降也不要沒有經驗的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
28013.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
28039.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
本來是希望這樣子的那是不是我覺得分那就分兩條來管理嘛來續名嘛第一條就只有清楚的寫居家托育人員就按照不一定居家只要是托育人員對居家托育人員跟機構托育人員都應該可以應該成年而且要具備下列資格到第二在下一條直接用去訂主管人員這樣反而會比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
28040.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
28067.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
那前面就不要寫所謂的托育專業人員因為你定義專業人員就已經含主管了我覺得這或許是可以修正的方向但是就是說基本上這個就是第一層我們的這個還是會變成什麼就是說我們是希望整個體系是從基層上來然後有經驗的然後再疊上去的是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
28069.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
28085.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
而不是來自於一個只要大學然後有其他領域的資歷然後就可以來當主管人員那個在44條就會你的就是脫門版本你的44條就有會寫到說要在哪裡好有什麼什麼經驗才會可以來做所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
28087.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
28105.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
應該是等一下可以試試調論只是現在這個版本的話前面的43條院同不同意不要用所謂的托育專業人員那就會涵蓋主管就直接用院版的居家托育人員及機構托育這個我想一下這個我覺得這個方向我可以想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
28106.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
28134.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
邏輯上好像也可以通啊但是實務上會遇到什麼問題我是不是再跟再想一下先保留一下那也要麻煩淑恩委員想一下因為到第二二項的時候還要解決的是因為原本這邊院版是有把你的意見涵蓋進去說托育專業人員及居家托育服務中心的工作人員的資格跟其他相關事項的辦法要中央主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
28135.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
28155.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
那這樣子的話主管44條就不用寫了為什麼因為托育專業人員就涵蓋主管他要另訂辦法就不會要有44條這也要想清楚對所以我們後來修正我是建議說居家托育服務中心的工作人員其資格居托中心的另外要去訂定這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
28157.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
28177.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
刚才不是这样对啦我们有新的修正那要这两条都先保留吗43 44没有啦43就是这样可是43跟44是有联动的是联动的这个那个原来卫福部提出来的就是给大家的资料书面的这一个资料是 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
28177.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
28200.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
事實上我覺得他那個層次就還蠻完整的就是你這邊提到的居家跟機構的托育人員就是你基本應該要有的資格你就明定了但是關於專業人員還有居服中心的工作人員資格由中央來訂定這個就是改成托育相關人員就行了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
28204.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
28208.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
托育相關人員的資格及其他相關事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
28215 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
28244.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
也可以只是我觉得那个淑芬有人可能思考一下就是真的有一些那个相关的规定是不是一定要列在母法这边因为那个其实还蛮就是以你们44条的写法其实还蛮多的那那个是不是授权让主管去定定就好了我们到底是在讲43还是44因为我一直43 44是联动的要一起讲43 44要一起讲不是啦因为43跟44到底这个行政部门的意见在哪里都没有听到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
28245.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
28267.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
現在的43就已經涵蓋所有包括居家托育人員 機構托育人員他們沒有然後下面他講托育專業人員跟居家托育服務中心人員他要另外去訂就是授權給他們他們在去訂他們本來沒有43他按照你跟培育的意見已經修一個版本在現在看那個螢幕上的你看你看紙本68頁有 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
28273.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
28299.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
我們是請中央 不要就請這個衛福部表示意見好不好我們原來的想法就是這一條其實就是規範居家托育人員及機構托育人員的資格那另外就是托育的專業人員大概就是主管人員還有居托人員跟主管人員跟機構的托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
28302.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
28319.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
人員我們在還有居家托育服務中心的工作人員的資格另外我們定授權辦法在授權辦法訂定這本來是我們提出來的為什麼前面有把這兩個資格寫你的托育專業人員只少了一個主管然後又說要訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
28321.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
28340.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
這樣子月琴我懂了啦這一條這樣子啊你們的第二項拿掉我們這裡就是講托育的不管是居托的還是機構的托育的人他必須要有這一個積極資格就是你要要有技術士的執照或者是要相關科系畢業嘛就是這樣子那 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
28341.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
28350.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
我們對主管要有更高一階的這個條件資格上的要求所以44條就是單獨把主管就放在44條這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
28353.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
28382.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
那也要再確認蘇芬委員因為原本你們還有個居家托育服務中心的工作人員要不要授權他們由中央主管機關定資對因為居家托育服務中心還有其他的工作人員這個工作人員就比較不是第一可能就不是第一現場在照顧小孩的也不是發生問題的時候第一現場要向主管要做判斷這個可以就是要就授權給他們就是居家托育服務中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
28384.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
28407.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
工作人員的資格及應該改成說這個對居托中心的托育相關人員的資格由中央主管機關定之所以是同意把那個前面的托育專業人員及這幾個字拿掉嘛前面改成是就是他們原來的原版的版本居托中心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
28409.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
28431.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
其他工作人員資格由中央主管機關訂定因為主管資格另外訂嘛然後托育人員也是就這裡有訂了那就是其他的工作人員的資格由中央主管機關去訂定你的其他工作人員是講托育機構的其他工作人員還是居福中心的工作人員這兩個是不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
28433.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
28455.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
原来的事实上是居扶中心他们写的事实上是居托中心也就是居家托育中心的人居扶中心因为我们前面定义当中还有托育机构的其他工作人员所以要的是什么我们本来想的就是居扶中心但是刚刚讲的那些厨师他们也可以放上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
28457.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
28485.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
就是居府中心的其他工作人員的資格應該說居府中心工作人員的資格及其他相關事項的辦法由中央主管機關訂定之因為之前有談到儲供因為剛剛前面我們有討論到說儲供護士要在這邊訂那要授權嗎還是說只有居家托育服務中心的工作人員這兩個不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
28488.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
28507.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
就是拘托中心的工作人員因為剛剛我們前面調次在討論的時候有提到的除工跟護士大概都是托嬰中心的人那是另外一個那你要放嗎還是不要放當時是說要放在哪一條我忘掉了就是放這一條當時你們是建議放在這對是這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
28509.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
28532.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
我覺得好像可以在另外也可以放上去整合在一起報告主席因為本來是在我們那個架構裡面現在可以整合在一起可以稍微休息一下這兩條再好好處理一下整合在一起那我們休息因為我們的版本是放在原始那一條我們休息五分鐘請行政部門跟我覺得再溝通再討論一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
28535.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
28546.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
啊 現在幾點 4點半 我們討論多久了差1個小時喔區購中心不一樣 區購中心是準公權利的區購 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
28550.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
28565.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
居多中心不是啦,是監督機制,居多人員就是保護,機構裡面的國喻人員也是保護。 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
28565.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
28576.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
因為他們前一條要放進來本來你要用托育的專業人員按照他的第二項這是第一項嗎第二項居托 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
28596.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
28603.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
居托中心的人托嬰中心的其他工作人員這兩個都應該要兼局吧在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
28612.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
28618.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
現在人員資格要在這邊啊然後再來就是44條才是44條才是主管啊44條才是主管這樣才會清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
28629.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
28642.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
還有早上沒有處理到的東西,新的問題啊。還有早上沒有處理到的東西,新的問題啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
28662.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
28668.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
對 沒錯啦對 要拿下來嗎對 應該要下來了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
28690.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
28692.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
28697.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
28700.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
28716.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
28729.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
28738.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
28757.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
因為會熊呢,會有奶粉。奶粉?奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。奶木卡拉,是中國大陸的奶粉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
28762.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
28767.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽,他媽媽, |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
28795.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
28810.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
那個真的要問他後來用送的,送補救的 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
28818.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
28835.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
要知道幼兒園嗎?對啊,要知道幼兒園,你看小姐,中間一個動物,一個維美社群,人家把牠放進袋子裡面勾起,對啊,太什麼玩笑,根本就不一樣,我的故事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
28836.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
28852.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
那真的有血還行,才會覺得願他盡心盡力當忙。 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
28861.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
28875.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
他正不回來他正不回來那我們就在這邊空窗暴風吐大家都站起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
28877.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
28877.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
28901.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
28919.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
很認真又敬業很認真又敬業最常開到下午欸 到底他真的不要回來啊那現在就到此為止好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
28923.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
28927.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
我們早上是一起走的,早上日系走一條嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
28940.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
28947.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
他就說要放到後面啊五點啊那五點才要送過來我老實說我沒有拿過 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
28964.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
28976.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
看不到搖擺開始要求不讓他解決嗎44條我有多堅持還是說我們就一直拖拖到該演辦站在這邊了好像不錯的要怎樣 因為修法蠻嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
28987.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
28990.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
就是嘛 你們都這樣那怎麼都OK呀就別這麼沒完沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
29015.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
29034.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
29042.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
29047.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
有啦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
29073.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
29075.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
29097.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
29108.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
對 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
29116.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
29132.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
這樣整天做早餵就好了啦那不是要蒸雞,要蒸雞怎麼做早餵?這樣是不是比較辛苦,不用回去做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
29133.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
29158.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
你看,你看王玉民,跟坐在這裡就是沒有要算啦你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道我要算啦,我要算你跟坐在這裡就是沒有要算啦因為這步伐很重要,我就坐在這裡沒有,你整個步伐都坐在這裡,坐到後面我認真啊,你怎麼可以這樣說所以你就沒有要算啦我認真啊所以我要算錢,你的管理員都沒有坐在這裡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
29159.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
29169.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
你怎麼可以這麼篤定,我不能兩邊兼顧嗎?很難啦!我不能兩邊兼顧,兩下也不可以算了兩下不可以算了喔?對阿,他說多少在這裡都是要算的早晚的雞排,五點 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
29185.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
29198.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿五點才可以拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
29203.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
29227.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
那你在這裡要授權給這位服務去訂定的就不能再包含這兩類的因為你把他們涵蓋進去就全部都要授權給他們這兩個會有禁服這樣子你不要轉來對啊 他們要交給其他工作 其他人員來你轉來嗎其他人員來你死牙子快死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
29239.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
29252.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
買雞排給大家吃嗎現在要選縣長要方方面面其他其他人員他就寫其他人員啊你們之後要看到五點到五點半就發完雞排就下課特殊規定然後你又授權給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
29266.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
29274.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
好 我們現在繼續林淑芬委員的第43條是不是請我們衛福部來放到螢幕上讓大家看 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
29284.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
29297.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
剛跟委員溝通我們在第二項的文字修正為居家托育服務中心工作人員及托育機構其他人員之資格及相關事項辦法由中央主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
29301.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
29321.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
這樣子可以但是有一個我想說你是不是在立法說明欄裡面其他人員紫色的是什麼可以舉個例子像是廚工啊護理師啊點點點這樣子免得我們不知道這個其他人員紫色的是什麼這樣子立法說明欄而已衛福部針對林淑芬委員OK |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
29334.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
29351.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
那這一條就照林淑芬委員的提案修正通過那我們就繼續陳培瑜委員的42條跟林淑芬委員是4條針對主管人員那是不是請我們的衛福部先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
29353.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
29370.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
有關陳培宇委員跟林淑芬委員的版本是一樣的只是在序文的部分陳培宇委員多了托育機構之這四個字那事實上在我們第三條的名詞定義就已經有說明了主管人員講的就是托育機構的主管人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
29371.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
29399.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
那下面的四款的資格這個是現行的托育機構主管人員的資格那在第二項的部分是對於主管人員他的一些過往的服務年資的一個採認那他有四款那採認的有包括原來過往的托兒所跟幼稚園或改制後幼兒園的教保人員助理教保人員教師教保員及助理教保員那還有托育中心的托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
29400.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
29415.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
以及藻寮机构的藻寮教保人员跟藻寮助理教保人员还有安置级教养机构的托育人员那刚刚委员有提到安置级教养机构事实上在很早以前他们事实上有时候0到2岁的当时候也是用托育人员 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
29416.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
29432.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
那我們是為了保障如果那一群人他現在還是有在服務的話那他要來轉任主管人員除了前面第一項的學經歷都要符合之外他的過往的年資的一個經驗可以採認那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
29435.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
29461.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
所以我要問的就是因為之前剛開始有設立拖延中心那時候幼兒園跟拖延中心事實上是人員不能夠互相去留用好因為為什麼零到兩歲跟三到六歲是不一樣的所以幼兒園的資歷事實上是沒有辦法作為化成要去管理拖延中心的經驗一樣拖延中心也不會被幼兒園採任嗎因為畢竟你照顧零到兩歲跟三到六歲不一樣這是第一個第二個是安置機構的一樣他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
29463.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
29477.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
管理照顧的這些方式也都不太一樣甚至目前有在安置機構的那個托育人員他們在安置機構的所有的教學 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
29478.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
29504.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
要講照顧方式跟教保模式都沒有的狀況底下他們比較是生活照顧面甚至環境也不一樣可是現在你要把它作為事實上是可以來做管理這個職務的話我要問的是這樣子的經驗值有沒有落差甚至你們有沒有可以比較能夠說明這是OK的否則我們一樣擔心的是過去為什麼沒有沒有的考量就是因為托嬰中心是比較年幼的小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
29505.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
29522.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
那他要去管理跟一個安置機構他可能是上安置的孩子大概十幾個跟現在可能會做到一百多個或是九十幾個的托嬰中心要去做管理的話他有這樣子的一個能力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
29524.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
29550.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
幼兒園照顧的孩子是比較大可是今天一個托嬰中心的主管他對於教保模式這些東西要能夠充分掌握可是他的教保模式跟幼兒園教保模式根本就是完全不一樣那能不能能夠去帶領工作人員有這樣子的一個概念來做管理甚至執行來維護兒童的最佳利益所以我想問的是幼兒園跟我們的托嬰跟安置機構這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
29555.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
29559.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
是跟委員說明事實上這個主管人員的資格跟年資採認現行就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
29562.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
29590.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
現行就是可以採認而且我們很早就放寬托育機構的主管人員可以採認幼兒園的一個年資這是沒有問題的那至於安置機構 深入我剛剛說的它不僅是年資採認它在它的學歷跟它的一個經歷上它都也要符合前面第一項的各款之一的規定所以不是只有年資這個部分可以就它就可以成為托育機構的主管人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
29591.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
29601.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
所以這個只是補充說這只是說在年資採認的時候把他過往的一個服務年資我們可以並記那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
29604.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
29627.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
但我知道你們前面當然有針對於一些要求可是過去他們學的假設比較是幼教的話真的在幼教跟幼兒保育還是有非常大的差異啦所以我不知道就是淑芬委員有沒有什麼因為這是你提出來版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
29630.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
29652.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
其實這個就是現行的規定但是我們還是跟現行規定有一點不同就是我們刪除了具高等考試相當高等考試的各類公務人員的考試社會行政或社會工作職系及格者具兩年以上社會福利相關機構或社會福利機構工作經驗的話這一款我們給他刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
29653.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
29668.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
那这个删除的理由是说因为主管的资格因为是和其他儿少规定在同一个执法但考量现场需求像托婴中心的主管应该以照顾幼儿经验为主所以才给他删除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
29671.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
29687.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
但是呢像這個刪除以後可能會有被說那這個現有資格人員的資格保障就是信賴保護原則的問題那就像月勤如果你要把這個安置或教養機構托育人員的資格拿掉也一樣會有這個信賴保護的這個問題的質疑所以我們在於負責第85條我們就處理了這一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
29698.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
29720.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
所以在這裡裡面看大家要怎麼做沒關係第二個就是說但是在配套裡面對於這些本來有資格的人或是已經在從業的人那你的信賴保護原則要怎麼定可能要考慮一下但是總而言之就是托嬰中心我們真的還是認為說有照顧經驗的是比較重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
29722.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
29728.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
高考合格的其實是完全不見得有照顧的經驗有照顧的背景我可不可以問一下衛福部就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
29736.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
29760.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
当然这个署分委员他是把这个主管的资格就是非常详细的调列出来然后还包括他的那个就是对那就是说其实这个有利弊因为你定在母法你就是你动一个什么条件你就要回过头来修法有点旷日废事 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
29761.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
29790.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
那事實上如果我們是授權讓主管機關他現行其實也是這樣嗎就是他在相關的執法裡面他其實也一樣有非常明確的規定但他一個相對好處就是說如果我們有想到什麼他需要做一些動態性調整跟規範事實上他的反應是比較能根據現況就是做一些必要的調整那我們在魔法把它調列的這麼詳細他們將來如果有哪一個項目需要做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
29791.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
29811.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
變動的時候我覺得都會比較花的時間會比較久啦這個我想是不是也可以跟團體溝通一下就是說是要這樣子的列法還是因為他說這個也是他們現行也都是完全一模一樣只是搬到母法來而已那這個主管可以表示一下意見到底你們在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
29812.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
29831.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
我們周全這個都沒有問題是放在哪裡的問題那你們怎麼樣在管理上面作為中央主管機關怎麼樣做你們其實是會相對比較有彈性而且比較好作為的你們其實也是可以表達意見我覺得就是大家都互相討論嘛找一個好的模式嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
29834.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
29856.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
跟委員說明其實我們剛剛在討論淑芬委員的第43條的時候就已經說了當時候我們為什麼不把主管人員定在母法是因為就像剛剛王委員講的如果將來有學校的科系變動的話是不是又要再回過頭來修母法這件事情又要再透過行政院然後再到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
29857.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
29880.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
是不是會因應不及現場的一個需要所以我們才一開始講說在主管人員的這個部分是不是可以在授權法規裡面去處理那的確如果把它擺在模法確實會有實務上因為現在很多大專校院的科系都隨時在變動那我們是不是就會有造成實務執行會跟不上這個法令的一個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
29883.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
29906.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
可是如果這樣講的話那第43條也不要訂啦因為有一些人員的資格這樣講好了就是說教保服務人員條例的第6條對幼兒園的園長他們的資格也是這樣子訂那為什麼講這個是因為這種資格本來就不能一直修啊不可能你說要彈性化一直修事實上本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
29907.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
29934.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
幼兒園園長也沒有這樣子他們在法律裡面定的那職業的權利也不宜太常變動啦所以在這種狀況裡面大家看一下有沒有可其他的點可以再討論的要不然的話入法已入法會失去修正的彈性那你要想有什麼東西是會經常修正的如果沒有的話那為什麼不 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
29936.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
29946.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
就是這幾點有什麼會經常需要修正的或者是我們在想有沒有哪一點是我們沒有思考到現在給他放上去那院長幼兒園的院長都沒有問題為什麼這個托嬰中心的主管人員就不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
29956.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
29985.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
那但是你說科系裁刃要不要再重寬或許可以再討論我舉例不一定是這樣子就是大家可以討論這樣子而不要說就不要定母法就改在施行細則裡面讓主管機關隨時可以改我就不知道什麼東西是可以隨時改的什麼東西是需要隨時改的這一種從業職業的這個資格還可以隨時改那也未免有點誇張了 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
29991.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
29999.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
衛福部這邊因為我也贊成因為今天幼兒園都也是可以這樣訂而且基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
30001.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
30018.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
這邊也寫得很清楚都已經涵蓋到家政跟護理相關學院也不是只有專門只有幼教跟幼兒保育了已經也有放寬那未來到底有更多學院那也不會是一時半刻就會有變動我們的變不會這麼快速的所以我不知道說會不會考慮剛剛的回應到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
30022.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
30034.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
是基於什麼樣的一個理由在第二個是我想問的是你的第一項的第一款也就是說我們今天承認只要碩士畢業就會管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
30035.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
30052.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
因為其他的都有一定要上主管人員因為我知道主管人員還有一些相關的一個管理的機制甚至危機處理可是在課程裡面一個碩士畢業碩士他只是因為去研究專精一個學位兩年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
30054.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
30069.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
做的事實上是在做研究而且事實上是怎麼去做研究可是你現在變成說只要有碩士學位就反而事實上不用去上主管人員的專業訓練這個考量的又是什麼以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
30085.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
30093.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
要不要再開放那些教育那些什麼書那些教育書不是幼法就是一般國小老師如果講到轉念的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
30097.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
30117.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
應該是大家去朝著說有哪個領域的人其實是也是可以鼓勵他們來轉任這樣子比較務實來討論這樣比較務實而不是說我們不要定在母法這樣子那有沒有其實是可以的涵蓋的領域可以再適合再鼓勵他們轉任的我們沒有想到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
30144.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
30147.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
那個衛福部可不可以請針對處分委員剛意見做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
30154.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
30181.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
剛剛委員提問就是主管人員的第一款的資格為什麼沒有取得主管人員專業結業證書者那這個是當時候這很久以前在修授權辦法的時候就這樣規定所以就是認為他是又教又保相關科系而且是碩士學位的他又有兩年的經驗原則上那個270小時的主管人員訓練的課程只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
30183.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
30205.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
應該是說只是一些讓他因為不具這些相關科系資格的人然後去受相關的一個訓練取得結業證書會比較合適來當主管人員所以在一開始訂授權辦法的時候就沒有把這些碩士以上學歷的人進去只要求學歷跟經歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
30206.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
30229.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
那第二個就是對於如果擔心未來常常因為也許有科系的變動或因應食物現況的調整那是不是我們可以在第一項增列第五款其他經中央主管機關公告者那這樣是不是就可以比較有一點的彈性也一併就叫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
30238.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
30257.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
衛福部可不可以把你們建議條文寫上去然後讓我們可以按照你的條文然後做討論第一項第五款其他經中央主管機關公告者 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
30266.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
30286.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
我觉得这样子是相当有弹性了就是说我们没有想到的或者是我想到的是很多小学老师他们可能很早50出头就就不想做就退休离开那里可是他想要再再到另外一个领域来比如说啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
30287.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
30313.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
或者是當缺少主管很多年輕人不願意再做這種工作的時候中高齡的人想要轉職但是他是他不在我們正面表列的這四款裡面那這個也就這樣子也是必須要解決的時候我們授權給中央主管機關去整體考量看那個需求跟這個供給的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
30315.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
30332.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
這樣已經是很彈性了 老實說如果你要加一個其他經中央主管機關公告者那其實必須相當嚴謹因為前面都很嚴謹那第五款這樣子好像看起來很輕很鬆你們覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
30346.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
30347.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
其他位有没有意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
30358.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
30385.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
這個社會的變遷有時候真的是超過我們所能想像的就是整個職場的改變真的也有可能是連主管大家都不想當因為主管家沒有多少錢擔當的責任也不小有可能從業的意願就很低但是我們資格上好像沒有再開給其他有意願就是這一款其實是要留給有意願想做 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
30385.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
30411.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
但是他不符合資格但是也不能夠他想要就直接就給他還是要框在一種條件裡面但是你們要公告是不是也應該要要怎麼樣的訂定出相關的這個資格也不能跟前三款四款差太大差到大家都不用前四款都用第五款那也不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
30413.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
30436.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
等一下架空了這個法 架空了這個法主管應該要一二三四款結果大家都用第五款也不行所以這個字眼到底要怎麼寫才是恰當的幼兒有彈性但是不會架空前四款我想這個可能也是要稍微思考一下他沒有辦法馬上說好我馬上就這樣答應 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
30438.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
30452.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
因為的確也有風險大家都用第五款委員一般我們來講經過中央主管機關公告我們一定會是很嚴謹而且我們目前就是剛剛成如委員剛剛講我們其實要做人力的評估所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
30453.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
30472.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
第5個部分我們也會很嚴謹的應該會召開就前面前面也談過嗎我會做一些需求的調查嗎今天早上也把這個放進去那同時如果這個部分也可以納入在調查當中如果發現有有這個主管人力不足的時候我們才會動這一條以上做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
30474.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
30501.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
你知道我們開放外籍移工都要做那個人力資源的這個調查然後要看那個你是到底是太低薪了還是勞動條件太差了人家不做還是真的在高薪然後人家也是不做這個東西就不一樣了對那所以你到底是到底給主管人員到底是什麼樣的狀況以至於沒有人要從業到時候再說好了我想這條也是稍微保留一下好不好條文內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
30502.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
30518.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
方向是朝這樣的方向好像可以討論對 因為我們剛剛早上討論前面是有一個是要做這個中央應該要做托育需求的調查我們可以同時把主管人員放進去因為要具以定定托育政策所以當然主管人員也是托育政策的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
30523.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
30539.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
現在寫的第一項的第一款我是比較不同意因為幼兒園像他們園長資格還是要受過園長的專業訓練合格才可以擔任結果你們只要碩士就什麼都不用我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
30540.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
30559.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
不是這麼合宜所以我認為你只用可是他在碩士訓練又不是因為擔任主管的而做這樣的訓練還比較是在一個研究的這樣的一個訓練在所以反而在這邊你們還反而是開放然後大家就是說你在什麼什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
30561.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
30572.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
單位工作然後服務滿幾年然後可是第二個一定要受過專業院長的訓練所以我認為是不是要把第一項的第一款拿掉 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
30576.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
30590.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
現在就是說因為我們這個是從兒少法裡面移過來現行的措施所以我們現在的托育機構裡面的主管人員他有可能是符合這一條的第一款他就是說是那如果我們把這一條拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
30591.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
30614.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
那对于这些现在在现场的主管人员可能就会影响到你先新修的法我讲的是说你未来还是应该要要求有一个专业训练因为他就要一体试用所以除非要有一个同一中心本来就有一个主管人员的训练所以你现在是只要硕士就完全不需要任何训练目前是这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
30616.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
30639.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
那怎麼會這樣定呢因為你們授權辦法所以我就說辦法就會有這種問題就是實景當時我的意思是說辦法就是你們自己內部這樣做嘛對不對對 可是現在就是對於已經現場的主管人員可能就要有一個落日或者是說現場的他已經也有經驗啦他就已經在現場經營托嬰中心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
30640.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
30657.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
在管理啊在當主管啊不是嗎對那如果他沒有因為我們最少規範他是要兩年的經驗所以他如果主席那這一條先保留好了啦先保留了好那就第一款要不要拿掉然後要不要增加第五款這個大家思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
30672.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
30692.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
好接下來我們的院版的36條請衛福部做說明好衛福部說明呃那呃林彥群委員還有林淑芬委員邱若驊委員還有劉建國委員大家都有關心這一條那我想綜合來說其實呃大概有幾個部分好那第一個部分大概就是說希望我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
30693.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
30718.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
就是中央應該建立第36條的裁罰資料跟授權的辦法那另外就是居家托育服務中心的工作人員應該是要在禁止而虐的這個範圍內那還有就是所以我們大概就有參裁委員的建議我們其實是調整了文字所以第36條我們行政部門的法條就做了一些文字的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
30719.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
30734.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
就是托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心的工作人員不得對受托兒童有身心虐待 體罰 霸凌性騷擾不當管教及其他對兒童之身心暴力或不當對待行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
30734.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
30755.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
那我們也增加了第二項就是前項行為經直轄市縣市主管機關1第57條及第64條規定裁罰者中央主管機關應該要建立裁罰的資料供政府機關構或經其同意之機構法人團體查詢以上說明委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
30758.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
30766.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
沒有的話就依行政院提案林蔚琴委員林淑芬委員的提案修正通過那接下來就是院版的第38條 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
30782.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
30804.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
那個已經上次那個通過了因為我們也增加了居家托育工作人員所以我們在行政院版本37條可能托育相關人員及居家托育中心工作人員可能我們要補充這幾個字上去才會一體適用OK 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
30814.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
30814.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
30832.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
30854.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
對 上37條就已經按照行政院版本通過了但是有一些小的概念要修正一下行政院的版本是只有托育相關人員我們沒有居家托育服務中心的工作人員所以我們要增加這個文字才會托育相關人員和居府中心的工作人員所以你們要把條文繡在上面確定一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
30857.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
30885.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
就是我們37條的第一項我們要增加一些文字這樣就是37條的第一項我們要 因為我們本來行政委員會是托兒育相關人員所以剛剛有討論居家托兒育服務中心工作人員要適用所以我們要增加這個文字好委員們在確認上次通過是要加這一字眼再次確認這字眼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
30886.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
30900.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
那接下來38條那請衛福部說明第38條那我們上一期剛才就有算是修正了喔增列了這個居福中心的工作人員了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
30908.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
30923.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
來請衛福部說明38條38條有關王玉明委員提到的第6款知悉托育服務的知悉服務的托育機構發生疑似性侵害衛醫第48條第一項規定通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
30925.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
30950.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
是再度發生機構內性侵害時的合理性因為我們考量疑似遏制涉及主觀的不確定性難以單一狀況及認定他終身不得擔任托育人員所以我們是參考幼照法第23條規定終身消極資格的一致性所以建議可以維持院版的一個條文至於林月琴委員跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
30951.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
30970.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
王玉明委員還有其他委員提案一定期間不得擔任托育專業人員的年限為1到10年那我們在院版裡面是因為在第39條規定的一定期限的年限是參考幼照法定定是1到4年所以這邊也跟委員來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
30971.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
30988.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
至於林淑芬委員的版本以及陳培鈺委員的版本都有提到要增加居家托育服務中心工作人員也納入規範我們也一併修正相關的一個文字以上說明委員們有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
30994.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
31014.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
蘇恩委員在第一項裡面喔12我不曉得第幾行OK就是托育專業人員工作人員及托育居家托育服務中心的工作人員有下列各款情形之一者托育機構或或後面要是重點居家托育服務中心的受委辦單位應終止契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
31015.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
31044.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
因为居托服务中心他没有具备法人的资格这个都是补助计划代行公权利他也没有立案所以他不是雇主所以目前在签订劳动契约的时候都是这个受以这个居家托育服务中心之受委办单位为雇主所以才想说这后面应该讲一个就是说居家托育服务中心之受委办单位这个应该是这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
31046.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
31059.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
在這個事格性上啦OK |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
31065.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
31093.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
好那再來就是第五款第五款就是我們希望有一個懲犯家庭暴力罪經緩起訴處分或有罪判決確定者並經直轄市縣市主管機關認定有終身不得擔任托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心的工作人員的必要的話這一些大概都不要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
31095.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
31096.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
可以照這樣子修訂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
31109.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
31129.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
因為懲犯家庭暴力罪者現行的兒少權法缺少相關認定機制所以依現行兒少權法第26條之一的規定懲犯家庭暴力犯罪驚患起訴處分或有罪判決確定之日起5年內不得擔任居家式托育服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
31130.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
31148.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
但是本法已經建立我們就是要建立說不適任人員的審議機制如涉及家庭暴力罪還有傷害致死家庭暴力罪的殺人家庭暴力罪的殺人未遂這種重罪他應該終身不得擔任托育相關人員及居家托育服務中心的工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
31149.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
31170.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
所以這個懲犯家庭暴力犯罪得否擔任這個托育專業人員工作人員或居家托育服務中心的工作人員要回歸到這個本法的認定機制來所以由地方主管機關審酌情節嚴重進行認定這樣子交給地方政府要去認定所以我們把這些講得比較具體一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
31175.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
31202.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
我們同仁 那委員我們這邊可不可以做一些文字的一個修正那那個同仁把他那個第五款把他列到第五款就是說懲犯家庭暴力罪鬥點經有罪判決確定且情節重大鬥點並經主管直轄市縣市主管機關認定有終身不得擔任托育相關人員或居家托育服務中心工作人員之必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
31203.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
31230.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
是不是有罪判就是委員的還起訴處分把他拿掉就是經有罪判決確定且情節重大情節有罪有罪確定有沒有可能會還起訴有罪確定他有可能會還起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
31243.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
31252.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
那我們不要因為還起訴就看不到了看不到了他沒有進入司法單位但是相對輕微但是我們要不要把這個責任交給地方政府去判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
31253.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
31266.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
因為他的情節輕微可能對檢察官來講是情節輕微就是我們在在討論那個什麼家暴防治的時候好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
31269.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
31284.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
大家有時候都會覺得說檢察官怎麼團起訴或檢察官怎麼沒有押因為家暴罪好像是三年以下我提了一個修法案把它變成五年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
31285.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
31302.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
三年以下就相对很轻因为那是家暴罪的本身他就定的不重了三年以下都不叫什么罪除非他杀人了或是重伤害了他才会再用家暴罪再加上重伤害和杀人罪去处分 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
31303.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
31320.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
否則一般的家暴罪都是三年以下那這種狀況裡面精神上的嚴重的有可能一次以後下一次就很嚴重了所以我們要把這個責任交給地方主管機關去認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
31322.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
31350.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
現在可能要問法務部知道嗎就是我們地方政府不會知道緩起訴的加暴罪緩起訴的有多少人或者是誰因為我們沒有檢察官應該不會不會告訴我們所以沒有辦法查核這件事情那判決確定我們其實是可以從判決書上是可以做確定的緩起訴沒有辦法查詢嗎檢查系統要問一下法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
31355.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
31373.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
通常還起訴處分檢察官還起訴處分還是只有通知當事人我說查詢的出來吧那個像警察機關就可以查某某人身份證號碼按下去就知道有沒有前科那這個警察機關司法警察查詢的會不會有還包含還起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
31375.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
31396.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
這個是可以查可以查的資料一定是有他們的中間的聯繫通報是什麼樣的機制這個可能每個如果我們在這裡是特別法授權給他們可以查詢的話那他們就地方政府絕對可以查沒有問題地方政府的司法警連警察都可以查了怎麼可能地方政府會查不到呢他們你們自己的規定以前是規定五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
31417.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
31424.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
你要延長喔 你要一個人生喔5點半啊 我們開會通知不是到5點30沒有啦有啊 延長半個小時啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
31439.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
31466.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
我們的意思是說其實家庭暴力犯罪限制任職的這個應該要回歸到主管機關地方政府讓他們去認那時間要多長時間要追溯五年內還是說永久的還起訴的要五年內還是說要永久殺人判決確定的情節重大的就永久的 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
31467.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
31470.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
這個應該給地方政府去主管機關去認定吧因為家暴罪對自己最親的家人都會家暴了你說他合適嗎兒托的所有不管機構還是那個合適嗎還是保姆合適嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
31497.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
31521.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
啊但是如果這個家暴家暴房子家庭暴力罪家庭暴力罪都是第二次給他機會了呢第一次是叫你這個不准靠近第二次你還違反了這個是給他國家給他第二次機會他都還犯老實說連還起訴都應該要限制了五至少五年不可以還起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
31523.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
31541.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
家暴防治罪家暴罪他真的是國家給他兩次機會他去申請的那個叫什麼令保護令保護令了你還違反保護令保護令是給你一次機會你還違反他你是第二次犯法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
31544.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
31553.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
我們是要是說給我們沒有叫你一定要怎麼樣還起訴的應該給他們認定啦那情節重大有罪判決的是不是要永久不是啊叫他們不要擔任托育人員而已啊叫他不要來顧小孩啦你母親你就怕你兒子你就怕你說你可以顧別人的小孩很好耶對啊那現在他們就在猶豫啊我就不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
31575.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
31595.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
因為大家漏了這麼多毒品的也要性交易的也要怎麼加報罪現在兩個戰促的問題第一個說適不適任這是第一個第二個是技術性問題技術性問題的話就像剛才講的保護你剛才講的我們保護系統這邊就是緩起訴的部分好像你現在說完全無法串接對不對可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
31597.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
31626.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
這又不是叫你們做這地方政府地方政府怎麼會沒辦法撤按揭他的社工的體系或者是說那個地方政府地方政府的警察局都可以查的到了你說地方政府會查不到這技術層次問一下問清楚再說好了我們先去了解一下好不好技術的問題我覺得是可以克服的因為法律授權的你就可以了所以我們在這裡把法律授權的工具給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
31628.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
31637.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
先回去再問一下好啦去想一下啦先保留好謝謝來好謝謝繼續審查第40條39對不起第39條院版的39條來請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
31650.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
31665.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
好這一條就是第39條行政院版本39條那劉建國委員的建議是說是不是要將違反動物保護法納入消極資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
31666.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
31690.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
那我們行政部門的這個考量是說第一個我們在這個違反動物保護法的樣態可能也是很多元的那他是不是等同於就是虐待兒童這件事可能他也不易認定那第二個是在我們參考幼照法幼照法其實並沒有把違反動物保護法列為是一定年限的消極資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
31693.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
31710.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
那其他的部分我們大概就是因為前面條文有就是針對於居家托育服務中心的工作人員其實也是有要訂消息資格所以我們也把這個文字把居家托育服務中心的工作人員也在三十九條裡面再把它加上去好 各位有沒有其他意見來請立書委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
31719.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
31734.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
一樣的意見就是第一項裡面的居家托育服務中心的受委辦單位他不是由居府中心當主持是那第二個就是說我們要公佈行為人的姓名 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
31735.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
31762.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
那所以我們還有這個家庭犯有家庭暴力罪上面這個東西要地方政府主管機關認定有不得擔任托育服務中心的不得擔任托育相關人員或居服務中心的工作人員的必要的這個名字要公布他的設計應該是就是說有時候他在這個縣市他公布了以後他可能會搬遷到別的縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
31763.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
31768.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
他可能就他就公告大家好查詢簡單來說是這樣子公佈姓名讓大家好查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
31777.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
31803.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
那同樣的是家暴罪對 我們的所以我們有列入要公告行為人的這個姓名那至於犯家庭暴力罪我們可能要跟38條要可能我們也讓我們這個行政部門再想一下因為我們這邊我們本來是把它放在是就是限制他1到4年不得擔任脫離人員就是曾犯家庭暴力罪的這個然後他犯家庭暴力罪5年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
31805.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
31825.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
不得擔任 那剛剛前面的38條是講的是終身不得擔任 所以我們可能要所以前面那一條我們講的是情節重大的部分好 那這個還起訴的對 所以我們自己也寫了還起訴所以我們可能要再確認一下是不是可以查查資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
31828.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
31856.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
你們自己寫的公佈姓名你們也有啊但是就是說你們可能就加報罪直接五年不能擔任對啊你們也是五年不得擔任嗎好你們想一下對我們想一下因為如果我們前面也是有緩起訴這邊又是緩起訴五年內然後他是五年內不得擔任可是那邊是終身所以我們必須要再考量一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
31858.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
31873.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
好就給他考量給你們考量嘛你要考量把我那個一併放進去吧一併考量你不能講說之前相關的一些保護兒童權益的法律沒有把那個那個患有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
31875.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
31896.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
都毛滑的 就不把它拉入我想現今國家基本上對虐待動物的基本上的人格特質都會有相當的在意而且輿論 只要你現在一條小狗的生命一條小貓的生命基本上只要有虐待的行為發生那會受到社會關注的程度是非常之大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
31897.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
31917.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
可能要有與時俱進的這種思維對 應該是要篩選出人格行為上不適任的那你可以虐殺動物那個人格和行為已經頗為不正常了 老實說那這樣的狀況也不適合再擔任這個專業的照顧員不是照顧員 這個居家不是 托育專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
31926.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
31941.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
那個跟主席還有那個委員請示一下不然我們就是說因為那個違反動保法有很多樣態可是我們特別集中在有關於虐殺這個行為好不好這樣就比較計較啦或者是他判刑哪一條判刑多久以上的這樣子好好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
31943.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
31970.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
好 我們再那個確認一下動保法那邊但是我知道委員最主要就是說從這裡面是不是有某些行為凸顯出因為野犯動保法很多種樣態有時候就是給他抓起來這樣對 你如果就是有一種他是專門在虐待小動物的他不一定要殺那個小動物他每天就捏他的屁股一直捏一直捏這種情緒控管也有問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
31971.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
31994.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
對啦 對啦 就是人口上出了問題不一定捏屁股啦對啦 捏鼻頭 捏什麼 捏耳朵你想像一下嘛 有人在你面前一直捏狗的鼻子還是耳朵 捏眼睛對啦 因為虐待動物的都有一點點毛病好我們一樣三十條保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
31998.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
32007.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
好 我們最後到五點半剩下還有一分鐘 要再繼續還怎樣你幾百多次了好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
32012.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
32032.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
來 現在做一下決議兒童托育服務法草案等29號身為審查完略另擇期繼續審查那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那本次會議到此結束星期三早上9點繼續開會現在休息謝謝大家 謝謝辛苦辛苦好 辛苦辛苦 謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
32036.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
32054.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
我要去看醫生了 |