| IVOD_ID |
17100 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17100 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025120336 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-04T14:00:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-04T16:53:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:52:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0a45cfcab5ea799a5f7c06cf12bab1b48b4456b5c46cbb78cdb70148a97ee35b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-04T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商有關行政院針對本院三讀通過修正「財政收支劃分法部分條文」，移請本院覆議案相關事宜。二、研商「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十七條條文修正草案」等案。（國民黨黨團提議）三、研商「人工智慧基本法草案」等案。（國民黨黨團提議）四、繼續研商「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算及綜計表－營業及非營業部分」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:00:14 - 16:53:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1838.118 |
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1863.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 謝謝 我們開會時間已到那麼還有幾個黨團幹部還沒有到我們工作同仁麻煩通知一下好謝謝 我們黃總召到了沒有還有張祺凱副總召到了沒有羅書長到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1866.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1880.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
黃總召來不來好柯總召最棒今天第一個到現場柯總召來請坐張祺凱張副總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1929.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1950.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那時間已到因為那個黃總召會慢一點點張啟凱副總召在路上我想時間已經開始了我們因為把握時間我們就開始進行好嗎好謝謝各位已經到場的各位黨團幹部各位列席官員以及各位工作夥伴我們今天協商題目有四個第一題是財政收支劃分法的復樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1951.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1965.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第二題是選罷法修正案第三題是人工智慧基本法制定案第四題是114年度附屬單位預算案第二個重點第二題選罷法由於還要再溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1965.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1991.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以我們今天就不列入協商討論第三題人工智慧基本法制定案以及第四題114年度附屬單位預算案其中附屬單位的預算案我們今天原則只處理營業部分其餘的非營業部分我們則其在協商討論非營業待命的相關部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1992.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2008.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
首長以及官員現在可以離席再重複一遍非營業部分待命的官員以及相關工作同仁可以先離開第四 我們現在從第一題開始我們首先請民進黨團發言國民黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2013.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2035.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主席 各位列席代表有關於第一案 財化法的復議案的問題我想各位大家印象還是應該有很深刻吧也就是說財化法第一次的時候在今年二月的時候也有復議案那也有行政院長來做報告那這一次是應該嚴厲邀請行政院長來做備詢報告以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2040.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2047.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
謝謝柯建民總召清楚的發言就是行政院長來做報告 人力辦理那請國民黨團發言 民眾黨團請準備謝謝院長 柯總召 張副總召 各黨代表這個大概又創了中華民國憲政史上的特例 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2064.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2090.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
不只一任的行政院長內提了八次複議案還同一個法案可以提兩次複議這真是荒天下之大吉在過去一次複議案成功被在野黨所否決會被國會所否決行政院長早就應該之所進退了現在已經把整個行政團體行政院已經把複議當作他的日常 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2091.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2115.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
只要国会通过的他不想实施就提复议案复议案没有通过他也不下台然后继续用蛮干的方式违法违宪的方式来执政我想这次的财务法非常的清楚实际我们统筹分配款都给地方4100多亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2118.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2135.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
然後行政院扣掉了計劃性補助2600多億所以實際上照這一次第二次的修法第二次修法完成以後總共只給地方1500多億明年相較今年只給地方多1500多億佔總預算的5% |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2145.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2174.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那如果再把所謂的一兆兩千五百億特別軍購再加入明年的三兆零兩百五十億的總預算裡面的話這個total才不到啊不到啊大概3% 4%吧3% 4% 4%吧不到4%我想一個行政院長不但違法亂紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2176.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2204.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
還把整個國家搞得烏煙瘴氣天天把國會三讀的法案也經總統已經公告實施的法案不暫拒不履行還用這蠻橫的方式來騷擾國會來浪費全民人 全體國民的時間我們覺得 朱鎔泰啊要趕快回頭思案啦回頭思案啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2206.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2232.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
放過全國基層的百姓讓全國的地方政府能夠好好的來施政來照顧百姓不要再提無謂的服役案當然陳腔老調的這個所謂總統態勢的報告連跟在野黨協商協商總院長都從來不曾跟來跟在野黨協商原來是他還沒有得到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2233.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2257.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
賴總統的授權所以沒有辦法來協商這樣的一個行政院長我們不曉得他有什麼樣可以繼續再留任所以我們完全不覺得他有必要來立法院做成槍爛掉的報告實在是完全沒有必要我們希望明天就能夠把這個實在是不需要再推出來的復議案我們盡快來把它解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2258.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2284.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 謝謝國民黨團的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨團張旗開委員請發言行政院長 總統他已經變成全台灣最大的亂源了中華民國在賴清德跟總統上台之前提的復議案只有六個到民國113年的時候只有六個復議案現在總統他今天提了第八個耶過半還加一 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2286.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2304.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
邵柏杰行政院長目無法跡 無法無天的行政院長提附議案憲法上面很明定很清楚啊你要負起政治責任啊你要當兒戲是不是立法院通過總統已經公告你該依法執行了你就執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2306.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2334.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
特別這裡面都是照顧到地方政府跟一般的這個民眾社會福利地方建設的這個錢你本來就該做的那要否決你要負起政治責任啊你又不下台變成整個台灣最大的亂源了好 那我們討論現在收到的報告不用來了啦不用來了來胡說八道嗎連叫財政部把試算表拿出來都拿不出來他念長好意啊他們來拜託你 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2335.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2361.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
村長來拜託你那你至少你帶著誠意來解決方案來最根本的你連一個財化法都拿不出來你來報告什麼嚴重的失實你這行政院版還能用嗎你來報告什麼更重要的在野黨主導兩次的財化法最新的修正第一個把地方自治的肉食因為中央過於急錢跟局權 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2362.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2388.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
很多錢本來就該下放這不是長久民進黨以前的主張嗎部分黨派專家寫者的主張嗎很多民眾的主張世界的潮流嗎結果第一次修正把該有的錢下放來這第一次修正是對的結果民進黨政府行政院竟然像土匪一樣竟然在刻厚大砍地方的補助款一個加一次好不容易爭取到我們好不容易爭取到66億的統籌備稅款 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2390.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2412.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
給嘉義市政府 結果你地方的補助款被他砍了69億耶像土匪一樣 違法亂紀台中市政府一個捷運 南線捷運已經蓋好了你該下放補貼的錢60億給他砍到1.6億台北市 蔣萬安的台北市捷運的錢被你砍了260幾億怎麼這樣無法無天呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2415.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2427.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以依照我們第二次的修正案我們明定地方的一般補助款不能夠比去年低 去年還低第二個又針對行政院去亂砍計畫型補助款2900多億砍到剩308那裡面很多的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2436.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2462.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
都是攸關社會福利的基礎建設的錢小朋友的錢 教育的錢 你敢砍所以我們明定不能夠比過去十年來的低這兩次的修法非常好啊去看看以前民進黨提的包括賴清德到台南市長到行政黨提的啊包括所有的專家學者講的不就是這樣嗎所以就用現在已經立法院兩次修正過的版本就好了明天進行投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2464.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2480.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
無法無天的 無法無天的總統派來 我們副議員再次的伯傑那張慶豪 容我提醒你一下剛剛發言的民進黨團的柯總召的意思是說要邀新中央來報告國民黨團表達反對 現在您的態度呢我們有反對啊還在聽他無說八道嗎現在請中加兵委發言好 沒問題 我們尊重發言人 中加兵委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2485.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2513.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 謝謝院長 謝謝主席今天聽到了在野黨兩位黨團的發言深深覺得遺憾也覺得詫異也覺得彷彿大家的記憶都消失了要說到立法院史上之罪還不是有兩年內行政院提出了八次的覆議有果必有因那這個因是哪裡拿呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2514.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2532.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個因一開始來自於立法院擴權修改了立法院職權行使法這也是我們本屆國會第一次行政院提出復議的案子立法院職權行使法我們立法院的國會多數創了一個紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2535.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2563.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
立法院編制的立法院手冊首度發行了增補資料這個增補資料呢主要就是增補立法院職權行使法裡面一堆紅通通的條文就是遭行政院附議未過提出憲法訴訟由憲法法庭判決後4-9134-9號所宣告的違憲的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2566.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2591.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
可恥啊立法院的多數 在野多數 轄多數通過一堆違憲的條文而且那一次還好那一次行政院要求覆議好歹還讓行政院來說明說明之後行政院說明之後立法院的多數仍然強悍的推翻覆議然後呢 憲法訴訟後大敗而歸啊鐵證在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2593.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2617.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
要說到兩年八次的復議 更可笑的是什麼是同樣的 在野掌握國會的多數的藍白 國眾兩黨在一年之內 不到一年 財化法修了三次因為財化法修了三次 才逼使行政院不得不在一年之內再度對於財化法提出復議 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2619.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2627.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以今天我們這樣的草野協商其實關心國家的民眾也好社會各界也好都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2628.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2656.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
行政院依憲法徵修條文的規定提請復議如果在野國會多數認為行政院長不升任不稱職那就請依照憲法徵修條文的規定你們來提起不信任案不然我們要自己去面對我們還是很懇切的呼籲由於裁判法上次行政院提請復議的時候我們本院是有邀請行政院長來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2657.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2681.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
成如立法院職權行使法本院在面對行政院提出覆議的同時我們也有邀請行政院來說明我們只是認為這個最基本的民主原則應該立法院有這個度量 有這個信心立法院的國會多數應該讓行政院來說明為什麼在野多數一年修了三次裁劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2682.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2705.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他要兩度的提出這樣的一個複議案要檢討的其實不是在行政院是在被憲法法庭打臉的立法院的國會多數也就是國眾兩黨所掌握的國會多數我們再次的請主席今天我們第一個本題就複議案 裁判好的複議案我們邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2706.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2726.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
行政院長來做說明讓在野多數去理解為什麼行政院認為自愛難行以上很誠懇的請主席來扯中促成比照上次邀請左院長列席說明好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員二人發言國民黨團請二人發言台灣民眾黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2733.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2756.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
要找藉口 還怕找不到嗎史上八次婦役的賴皮院長就是卓榮泰這鐵板叮叮的事情剛剛聽宗教兵講了一大堆 講到我的心都飛掉 為什麼呢八次都有理由啊 好厲害啊 超強的找藉口 找藉口是很容易啦但是我跟你講 也不用那麼麻煩嘛反正你也知道婦役來 我們一定會把他踢回去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2757.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2772.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那說真的一個賴皮院長復一八次他也更不在乎立法院來報告什麼報告浪費民進黨的時間我是幫民進黨節省時間所以不用來報告了明天就直接我們就用復一復一來我們就把表決否決回去嘛這也是你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2772.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2795.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你們要的一個形理如一的結果所以我想找那麼多藉口我覺得也不必了那既然大家覺得院長反正心意已決嘛那來報告也是多此一舉那不如我們就明天比較乾乾脆脆的來表決那看看這個民眾是不是能夠接受這樣的一個賴皮婦醫院長以上謝謝羅志強書記長接下來請台灣民眾黨團二輪發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2798.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2824.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我想還是針對主題來加以發言剛剛民主進步黨黨團的幹部如果要講國會改革法案要講這一次我們的憲法法庭怎麼樣忘了自己要捍衛的是憲法不是捍衛民進黨執政集團的利益的話所做出來的所謂憲法法庭的判決有多麼荒謬可笑我姑且不論講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2826.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2841.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
宗嘉斌委員剛剛講得口沫橫飛啊說的是可恥的修法那可能憲法法院的判決沒有好好看啊因為他宣告違憲的範圍還不是這次的修法連更早之前那一次賴清德有參與的也被宣告違憲耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2843.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2863.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那我不曉得爛心的總統現在在總統府裡面耳朵會不會覺得癢啊哇 說怎麼我那個時候提針對有關於國情報告我有同意的條文也一併被宣告違憲啊要講這件事情 回去啊把憲法法庭的判決好好念一念不要半桶水響叮噹啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2864.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2890.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但我今天在坐在這邊所要表達的是什麼所要表達的是台灣民眾黨對於財政收支劃分法的這件事情我們非常的重視非常的重視所以去年我請大家回憶我們三催四請請行政院拿出行政院的版本永遠得到一句話現在的版本就是最好的版本那前一陣子我就不理解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2891.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2918.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那如果現在的版本就是最好的版本怎麼卓榮泰又突然今天拿出了所謂財政收支劃分法的修正案到底是發生了什麼事情我想過去啊這段時間卓榮泰針對財政收支劃分法他不曉得開過幾次記者會了他要講的話全部都講了但是我要再表達一次立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2920.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2949.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們今年在處理今年預算的時候我們刪的是中央政府各機關結果竟然拿地方政府魯人勒鼠 636億直接從地方政府的一般補助款砍違法濫權 膽大妄為那是沒有辦法 地方政府被綁票了所以我們那時候追加預算的時候才免於同意所以這一次針對財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2950.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2972.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我覺得行政院院長卓榮泰要提復議那提復議我們就按照議事規則表決沒有必要讓這個第八度提起復議中華民國憲政史上最會提起復議的院長再來立法院這邊做任何的報告以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2973.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2986.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 謝謝黃國昌總召的說明各位黨團幹部我想經過二輪的發言大家立場都表述得非常清楚顯然還沒有辦法達成共識我們休息五分鐘進行溝通一下來 現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3329.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3356.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 各位黨團幹部我們繼續開會我們現在在草泥一個結論那在這個草泥結論之前民進黨團 鍾嘉斌幹事長希望能夠要求三輪發言我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團請準備那謝謝主席 還有葉院長我想剛剛的休息協商呢其實大家都有一個共同的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3357.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3370.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就是行政院在過去七次的復議案當中有四個案子超過半數是行政院長有來向立法院說明為何行政院提出復議為何覺得自愛難行 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3372.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3400.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
但是如果行政院長可以來說明後我相信各黨後續要來詢問行政院長或者互相討論的時間或次數應該就豁然開朗了所以剛剛我們對於後續各黨上台發言的人次跟時間我們覺得可以有高度的協調空間但是我們還是願意來爭取讓行政院長原力先不要說前面七次的復議有四個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3401.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3423.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
七个案子的复议案有四个案子是行政院长有亲自到本院来向立法院说明而其中呢我们这次所讨论的财政修饰划分法在上次的复议案本院也是同意邀请行政院长来做说明那我觉得这个立法院的国会多数做了一个决定 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3424.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3451.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
你立了一個法案讓行政院覺得自愛難行也應該聽聽看行政院是怎麼說明難道連院長來說明為何院門的裁劃法值得我們本院來支持連這樣的空間都不敢面對嗎難道是擔心說院長報告完了社會知道原來行政院的裁劃法才是對國家對中央跟地方對民生是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3452.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3467.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
如果說目前在野黨認為他們所掌握的國會多數通過的裁判法修了三次的裁判法是最好的抱歉喔如果是最好的為什麼要修三次為什麼還有錯誤還要再重修那如果是有這個信心那何妨 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3468.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3491.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就讓行政院長來說明為什麼自然難行如果在野多數 在野黨認為行政院長講得沒道理在國會的殿堂上很清楚的為自己所訂的法案來加以辯護我想這是國人所樂見的所以我想再次懇求希望我們在野黨既然敢用國會多數訂出的法案就應該要有那個度量 有那個膽量 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3492.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3521.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
來面對行政院提出複製的理由如果不讓行政院長來彷彿說就落入了之前外界在批評的立法院就只是會敬賦惡毒只會沒收討論只是會過水協商然後最後黑箱表決我們希望不要讓國人留下這樣的印象再次的懇求後面各黨的發言人次時間我們都可以討論但是是不是最前面讓行政院長來說明行政院版的裁劃法為何要請本院 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3522.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3530.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
將我們之前修過的將各位在野黨修過的才化法有哪些無法執行的具體說明好 請國民黨團三輪發言我忍不住要笑一下今天如果卓榮泰是這個任期兩年就復一一次我們這個在野黨說你不用來報告我覺得在野黨有點理虧復一兩次好像應該也要讓你報告八次耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3549.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3566.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
八次耶對不對 兩年八次耶而且中間我要跟你講你剛剛自己都講才化法已經讓他來講過一次他也沒理大家對不對 也沒理大家他一定要繼續硬幹啊什麼叫做要不要聽他講到底他根本不打算講理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3567.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3595.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
卓榮泰今天上來 我不想用粗話講 對不對你講完以後 你不會有任何改變嘛你該講的話 上次附議案也讓你講過在院長不是沒有讓你講喔也有讓你報告啊請問報告的結果是什麼去年7月請行政院提院版行政院就是不提啊等到立法院三讀通過才劃法 你來蓋牌那說真的 中間你已經講過一次了讓你來報告一次喔那我這邊還是一句話啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3597.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3618.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們國民黨對於財化法任何的要改變的意見開放但是先請你尊重立法院三讀通過的財化法你先讓他上路一年嘛財化法需要那麼急你上路一年行政院有什麼意見我們再來討論你不要等了一年半之後然後現在你又突然來蓋牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3620.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3644.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那我說真的讓這個我們講賴皮的卓院長來報告我看不到任何實意啊所以還是一句話今天如果他只是一次兩次復議喔那我說真的來報告不讓他報告我覺得有點站不住腳不是耶 八次耶八次這樣子搞賴皮喔我覺得立法院真的我們不打算浪費民進黨時間也不要浪費國民黨跟民眾黨時間啦以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3649.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3665.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
是這樣啦 那個羅兄如果上次院長來報告才華法16條之一我們國會多數修過的公式錯誤有聽進去的話今天才華法不用再來修這個公式錯誤啦好 我們請台灣民眾黨團請三輪發言其實我覺得針對左龍泰提出八度復議的這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3675.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3689.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我看了那個聯合報的社論我覺得寫得滿好的卓院長我是勸他啦靜下心來好好想一想孰以自知何以自知 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3691.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3708.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這樣子對國家對社會對人民都比較好台灣民眾黨的立場沒有改變這個要跟國會宣戰的行政院院長沒有針對這件事情站在立法院再多說什麼的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3713.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3741.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
各位黨團幹部在休息之前我呼籲大家掌握黃金五分鐘溝通顯然還是無法達成共識那麼 容許我來把大家不同意見裡面找出一些可能可以接受點我來宣告一下大家看可不可以接受如果可以接受我們再請大家簽字好吧 我們做出兩項可能的結論一 各黨團同意3月5號院會報告事項處理完畢同日 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3742.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3762.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
改開全院委員會審查財政收支劃分法附議案同日上午七點於議場進行院會及全院委員會簽到審查的時候不邀請行政院院長列席說明由各黨團推派一位發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘順序一例授權議事處辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3764.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3770.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
名單請於12月4號星期四下午5點30分前送議事處會診預時視同放棄當次院會我們不進行過世論壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3775.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3804.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
不處理臨時提案本次會議我也不再處理變更議程含抽出動議二 全院委員會審查完畢同日改開院會進行記名投票表決並由各黨團各推派一位擔任投開票監察員領投票時間一個小時其餘的相關事項事務工作依例授權議事處處來進行辦理請問各黨團幹部針對這兩項宣告可被接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3819.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3828.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那我們就請各位來簽名好嗎我們要進入人工智慧基本法制定案我們要開始進入人工智慧 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3837.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3838.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
教育委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3972.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3999.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 謝謝各位黨團幹部針對第一案已經簽名達成草野協商的共識我們現在進入第三案人工智慧基本法草案也跟各位黨團幹部報告我們現在開始正式進入來討論第三案先介紹各行政機關的代表我們首先歡迎國科會陳副主委一行 謝謝速發部林部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4002.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4031.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
教育部吳司長 歡迎您行政院教科文吳處長 一行 謝謝財政部劉專門委員法務部李檢察官 謝謝經濟部周濟政 謝謝勞動部李次長 歡迎您文化部王專門委員 歡迎您行政院人事行政總處 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4033.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4039.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
蔡 孫兩位專門委員人事總署代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4042.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4061.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
人事總助代表來了嗎 您站高一點好好好 看到了 好 謝謝啊歡迎歡迎 沒看到好 謝謝我跟各位黨團幹部來報告一下本案在114年8月4號召開十一屆三會期教育及文化交通委員會聯席審查審查完略並決議院會討論之前須交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4066.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4077.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
接著本案於114年8月21號由國民黨團葛如軍委員召集第一次協商會議當日協商結果除保留法案的名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4079.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4107.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
第二條 第三條 第七條 第十八條 第十九條台灣民眾黨團提案第33條至第39條外其餘條文均已經達成共識為節省各位黨團代表寶貴的時間我們集中討論重點本案是否先行討論上述的保留條文如果大家對已經有共識的條文還有意見我們回頭再來繼續進行討論這點非常重要請問各位黨團幹部有疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4108.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4123.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
沒有異議好我們就照上述宣告來通過我們現在開始進行逐條的進行協商協商的時候請參照協商條文對照表與審查報告及禁負二讀的相關文書國民黨協議國民黨協議國務卿田安委你要發言嗎請 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4132.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4154.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝主席 首先要感謝韓院長對於我國人工智慧發展的重視那我相信行政院的院長也應該是一樣重視的那特別在今天我們由韓院長能夠召集今天安排人工智慧基本法草案的協商那也要感謝今天各黨團代表的列席一起表達對於AI科技發展的關心跟重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4155.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4173.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
首先感謝本黨三長對於AI科技的力挺還有我們所有的委員如果沒有我們黨團的鼎力支持我想人工智慧基本法的草案將沒有辦法以教育及交通委員會聯席的方式來進行一個跨領域的跨界的充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4174.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4179.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
另外也要特別感謝今天列席的民進黨的陳培余書記長的支持還有我們民進黨的三長的支持尤其陳培余書記長因為接任黨團幹部的因素暫時離開教委委員會但是我們一直念茲在茲知道說陳委員對於人工智慧基本法草案在委員會階段的三次審查以及一次的協商都從未缺席所以這一點我們也要表達說 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4200.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4230.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
科技是可以沒有邊界科技是可以沒有色彩科技是可以一起為民努力的一個產業那同樣的也要感謝民眾黨的劉淑冰委員對於我們AI基本法的支持那民眾黨也非常的支持每一次都非常認真的來一起參與審查的過程那當時也有這個民進黨的委員張雅玲委員在審查過程當中有一直提醒大家對於兒童青少年抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4232.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4259.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
兒童青少年可能帶來的影響 納入條文之中我們想說人工智慧基本法草案能夠在今天能夠在今天可以進到院長協商的階段真的是要感謝所有跨黨委員的支持那目前人工智慧基本法的草案也因為之前的協商是有成果的所以我們只剩下5個條文有待協商那也希望今天的協商可以順利達成共識讓我們AI基本法可以繼續朝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4261.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4269.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個會期三讀的方向前進那最後我們還是要感謝一下速發部的林一進部長當時我們在委員會協商的時候您是次長那現在您是部長那當時您是次長在委員會審查的階段林部長您也給了我們非常多寶貴的實務建議甚至是細節的文字修正的建議想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4281.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4289.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
讓條文是更加完善不過美中不足的地方我們還是要提一下速發部在11月20號有拜會本席的辦公室當場有說雙方的共識條文你們會朝你過來但是事實上10天過去我們今天今天才拿到這個相關的文字態度上還是會覺得希望還可以未來相關的演繹上都還可以更快一點那如果待會有機會說明的話部長也可以說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4309.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4336.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
為什麼這個法案這麼的重要可是相關的溝通好像常常會稍微這個速度上比較我們沒有辦法非常同步這一點我們也希望在未來以及今天的協商當中呢我們可以看到部長您的說法那我相信今天的共識也應該可以很快的達成謝謝謝謝院長謝謝葛獨鈞委員的發言不過在陳佩玉委員發言之前讓我提醒一下現在行政院版本國民黨團版本民進黨團版本都是人工智慧基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4338.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4365.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
但是有一個台灣民眾黨團所提的是人工智慧發展及管理條例所以陳培育委員等一下發言完畢之後台灣民眾黨團必須要表達意見好 請陳培育委員請好 謝謝韓院長今天主持這個協商那如同剛剛院長所說的我們真的也很希望在今天等一下院長主持的協商裡面根據剛剛我們所談到的保留條文大家都可以快速的高度的有共識喔我認為這件事情非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4366.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4391.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
也感謝葛如君委員一再的點名我關心我在教文還有AI基本法的關心上次在逐條討論的時候我想我們倆是坐最久超過四五個小時所以我想今天當然也要發言那今天其實還有幾個爭議也要有待院長來秉公處理第一個是關於名稱的問題第二個是關於主管機關的問題那到底該不該有主管機關可能很多人認為一個法當然就要有主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4392.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4420.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
可是我等一下还是想要拜托院长是不是还是可以让术发部说明到底他们目前为止对于主管机关的掌理或者是后续各自的分工因为我想各位委员非常懂AIAI其实不会只有局限在某一个部会或者是某一个委员会它如何跨部会然后各个目的事业主管机关都有相关的权责可以好好的工作保留相关的弹性到底怎么做是最好的而不是只有符合单一委员的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4420.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4448.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
第三個爭議就是關於AI的定義我們從上一次協商完到目前為止我相信每個人的手機上從原本只認識Chat、GPT到現在有最新的AI工具不管是圖畫、影片、日新月異也就是因為AI的科技發展如此的日新月異所以我們在AI定義上都希望保留相關的彈性而不要因為在母法、基本法裡面寫死了影響後續的發展跟相關科技的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4449.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4475.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
再來就是關於國科會還是由術發部來處理這個事情等一下要拜託我不確定一下 院長我們今天國科會有來嗎因為葛如君委員一直有點名國科會好 等一下拜託國科會跟術發部兩位都會發言兩位等一下請說明你放心 都會發言好 再來就是大家所關心的如果放入高度框架的風險分類框架看起來某個程度上到底是限制了還是保護了相關AI的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4476.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4500.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我認為這件事情待會要拜託民眾黨團說清楚因為我相信在這一條的共識上我跟葛如君委員可能是比較像的相關風險分類的框架在保護相關言論自由還有相關內容的取用還有科技發展不要侵害到人權的情況下如何又不要做死了所有的業者或者是學者或者是有心想要投入這個行業的人的發展所以我覺得這是另外一個爭議大家待會要討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4502.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4519.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
至於上一次在協商的時候劉淑冰委員代表民眾黨團所非常堅持的問責機制還有罰則的部分我也很想聽聽看葛委員的高見到底在這個基本法的前提之下它不是作用法再一次強調它不是作用法我們如何不要放入問責跟罰則可是相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4520.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4536.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
主管機關因為葛委員很堅持要主管機關如果各自的主管機關在這個議題上有可行的做法也請待會一併提出來給委員們參考最後一個是法律授權它跟主管機關會有所聯動所以等一下我想最正義的兩條一個是主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4537.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4562.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
再來就是葛委員很堅持的要有一個行政院高度的戰略指導委員會但是我個人的擔心是這個戰略指導委員會會不會跌床架屋會不會相關委員會的訂定跟工作其實沒有辦法落實到而且如果這個委員會就是一年一次它會不會淪為一種大拜拜大開會而這個實質的意義到底在哪裡我其實也抱持著懷疑的態度當然在這個科技面前 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4563.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4587.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們有人性我們有相關人權要主張我們有非常多我們在意的事情我們跟科技在對話的時候這些都是要小心的不是我們幾個立法委員在這裡說了算所以要拜託待會院長如果可以的話保留些時間讓主管機關來說明以上 謝謝等一下麻煩請國科會還有書發部準備報告我們現在請台灣民眾黨團所提出的法案名稱請做出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4588.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4604.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好 謝謝主席今天討論的議題是在人工智慧基本法本榜在之前所提出來的是人工智慧的發展條例跟管理的條例這部分因為我們也經過了內部的黨團裡面的討論當然我們當初的希望是說目前的整個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4614.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4628.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
與日俱進那現在的就是應該趕快就是包括的是整個部分的去進行包括他的一些他的像罰則跟問責機制但是我們後來因為想到如果可以幫助國家先把這個一個基本法先架構先訂出來是一個目標的話我們本來是用的是作用法的目標我們就把它變成把它改成說我們是可以同意的名稱改回是人工智慧基本法好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4642.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4652.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那其他部分我也感謝是說我也剛才也是因為三因為是三月份就任了我剛在上一個會期當中的就是也是努力的在學習也發現到說的確剛才所說的我們都努力的在參與包括的是在主管機關啊這一部分那當然我們後來也才也才速發部也是在11月初的時候有來做一個來做說明那但是真的還是沒有看到就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4668.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4676.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
提出來真正的是後來再跟我們做一個在可能更完整的這一部分但是尤其是我們今天所看到的這樣子的一本這樣的一本的那個分條的這個各條的這樣子的比較表當中應該是已速發布的版本為為為一個依據可是我們本我們但是我們整個教文委員會當中非常的努力的經有形成的一個一個這樣子的一個一個如今委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4693.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4710.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
委員會版本的那個修正版本甚至都有一些修正的條文都已經是通過的我想應該要尊重到本委員會當中各個委員15位委員的一個努力的一個成果所以是不是在以後的條文的對照上面是可能要討論是目前我們本委員會已經形成的這樣的一個條文的視訊還是要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4717.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4747.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
現在速發部所提出來的版本順序可能就是要去思考一下下這個是一個可能會有爭議的或是說到時候先弄出來的大家在這個結構在這做一些條文的對手這可能是要去做一個協調的那至於說什麼高風險架構等等我們那是因為過去是用作用法的方向這部分也因為有速發部的一個溝通我們這部分了解到當我們題目名稱草案的名稱都已經有修改的時候我們會做也因為我們知道說他有對應性的一個部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4747.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4752.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
事實上速發部或是各個AI的它對於在各個部會交通部 衛福部還有在農業部上面的對應可能是不太一樣的 即使是高風險可是對於到其他的部會可能不太一樣這部分我們可以理解但是我也需要說速發部在這個公開的場合當中在做說明但是主管機關上面我們還是有一些堅持是如果當沒有一個主管機關的話尤其像這次就是速發部已經提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4772.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4776.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
他們的用阻摺的部分在做方法我們覺得堅持我們應該想說在抒發部本身這部分它還是作為阻摺機構但是在相對於其他部分它要做個彙整重整的一個效果在我們想說提出到我們目前的方法是這樣的一個過程好 謝謝蘇秉偉你這邊跟你報告我們是以第一次協商條例為主體 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4792.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4812.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那麼也要跟各黨團幹部來報告一下台灣民眾黨團也同意法案的名稱就照協商人工智慧基本法也同意了那這個我們就確定了好不好 照協商的名稱通過那接下來我們請速發部跟國科會來分別簡短扼壓報告因為名稱已經達成統一共識了請 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4814.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4832.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
感謝院長還有非常感謝葛委員陳委員還有劉委員剛才的發言那如同各位委員所說的事實上這個人工智慧基本法我們是有相當的共識的那我想我們都是一方面我們擔心AI的風險因為AI的能力實在是太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4832.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4853.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那另外一方面我們也希望能促進台灣AI產業的發展所以我們才會訂立這個法那現在就是有兩個條文就是還沒有達到完全的共識第一個是主管機關的部分那我們非常理解就是葛委員還有那個國民黨黨團一直希望把這個層級拉高那因為國科會 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4854.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4868.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
事實上它是一個委員會所以它事實上是層級是比我們抒發部好像它那個經費也都在它上面但是我們還是希望說不要訂定主管機關為什麼呢因為不訂定主管機關的時候這時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4869.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4889.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
主責的機關事實上就是行政院而行政院裡面所有的部會其實跟AI都有關係這個是為什麼我們認為說不需要訂那個主管機關的原因那另外一條就是戰略委員會在這個地方也是類似的原因我們也是認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4890.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4917.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個AI非常非常重要那事實上將來各個部會大概每天都要面對AI對我們這個社會帶來的衝擊那並不是說我們認為AI不重要所以我們覺得說不需要設立戰略委員會而是我們認為說將來其實我們每天都要面臨都要處理這些事情那不需要說每年固定再開一次會議來談這件事情以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4918.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4944.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
謝謝林部長精彩精闢的發言謝謝我們現在請國科會我們陳副主委請好謝謝院長感謝院長還有各位委員客套話不說直接切中好謝謝以上感謝各位委員那國科會這邊針對主管機關以及這個特別委員會這邊我們其實也是跟訴發部的立場是一樣的因為主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4946.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4965.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個其實是不宜去設定國會並沒有比書發部來得大我們其實是平行的部會所以如果不訂主管機關其實還是回到了行政院去做協商所以我們建議是不需要訂而且在條文當中其實各個單位需要去做的事情本來就已經有指定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4966.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4994.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那特別委員會這邊也是一樣因為我們已經有既定的一個處理的機制每天都在處理這兩樣的事情所以似乎是不需要再去額外再多盯一個委員會謝謝陳副主席那個訴發部跟國科會講的兩位代表的閣員講的非常值得大家去省思那我知道現在國民黨團是希望主管單位是國科會那民進黨團希望是訴發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4995.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5016.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那剛剛兩 沒關係沒關係你等一下可以台灣民眾黨才是希望速發布那我的意思是說兩位剛剛閣員所報告的值得我們各位黨黨幹部來深思那如果這樣的話我們不設一個單位的話就直接由行政院來統反而他包羅萬象什麼都可以權力是最大的這一點請大家共同思考閣主席 請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5017.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5019.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好謝謝院長也謝謝這個林部長跟我們的這個副主委剛剛所提的意見那還有包含兩個政黨的一些想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5029.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5051.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我想这一点我也要明确的提到刚才陈培宇委员有提到三个字叫跨部会其实我们认为这个AI基本法最重要的就是AI会影响的部会跟范围是非常广的现在我们看到的是步步有AI结果是步步蹭AI全世界包含日本韩国美国新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5051.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5069.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
都在高速的發展AI的產業競爭能力的時候其實有非常多的國際大廠還有人才的機制需要找到一個明確的一個國家級的一個特定部會的單位所以我們可以看到南韓的AI基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5070.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5086.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
就是以科研的部会来作为主管机关日本的AI基本法也是以经产省一个特定的部会来做主管机关加上科研的部会没有任何一个有AI基本法的单位是没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5086.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5090.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
投的是沒有部會領頭的這根本就會變成一個無頭的法案那另外呢我們想說在這個主管機關的選擇上面為什麼國科會可能會比速發部更好我想有兩個非常明確的理由第一點呢是國科會主委在我們的行政機關的規範上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5107.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5128.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
是由政務委員兼任而行政院的政務委員呢本身就可以做跨部會的協調而同時呢我們的國客會本身也就囊括了我們的AI預算的一個步劃跟規範同時國會主委呢也是三政委平台的成員之一所以我們先不講高度講廣度的部分我們認為國客會是非常合適的那第二點我們剛剛這個陳培委員也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5134.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5149.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
AI從checkGPT開始被大家高度的關注了以後其實現在大語言模型進入一個新的境地下一個戰場很可能不是只是數位的AI很可能是實體的AI有機器人有一些相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5150.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5160.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
實體的裝置甚至是這個自動行走的一些設備這些很可能都跟我們的竹科半導體的產業息息相關而剛好我們的科學園區的主管機關也是國科會 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5165.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5186.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那所以我們認為總整起來我們如果真的是要有一個戰略發展的方向這個三角的這個設計是符合我們亞太地區有科技產業的地方來做的所以我們其實不是說沒有抒發部的角色而是有一個三角的平衡關係上面有一個行政院層級的戰略委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5188.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5216.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
另外由國科會作為法規條式的主管機關以及戰略委員會的幕僚機構同時速發部在法案裡面也還是明確的列明了數位發展部作為風險的分類所以這樣子的一個結構正好就是南韓跟日本都是同樣在做這樣的設計我相信我們要讓台灣在下一個20年40年有AI的競爭力我想在AI基本法有這樣的一個設計是最好不過的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5218.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5243.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
國務卿委員的重點跟兩岸格言是不一樣的大家可以聽得很清楚人有人頭 街有街頭AI也要有自己的龍頭大致上有這個意思不能夠變無頭那台灣民眾黨團請發言好 這個議題如果誠如處發部所講的就是行政院是主管機關的話那是不是也要把它明定在那個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5244.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5265.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
條文當中因為現在是變得沒有條文嘛對不對那不然這樣的話真的你給行政院到底連哪個部會是什麼都不知道啊那都行政院那行政院長日理萬機那剛我們又看到了在速發部的給的意見當中就是說因為現在的一個一個一個委員會的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5267.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5281.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
數目已經超過了所以現在沒有機會再融上去這是一個用行政再去卡卡到這個機關的責任的部分所以真的用行政院來當作主管機關適宜嗎目前有這樣子一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5283.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5311.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
例子嗎在各個法條當中會不會又出現到像我們出現到內政部有這個對在管原住民新住民的基本法當中當然沒有說他是新住民的是在內政部裡面但是他也涉及到好多的很多的領域啊可是我們就把他的那個主管機關就放到內政部啊那新住民這邊也有時候到農業啊社會到也會到這個教育部嘛在國科會啊什麼等等啊都有啊可是才不是放在內政部下面好 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5312.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5328.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就這樣子所以我想說這邊如果有例子的話是可以呈現完就可以不然我們假如是速發不可能是比較適宜的我知道好 謝謝謝謝劉淑檳委員發言那其實大家大致上已經慢慢慢慢慢慢朝向可以達成共識那民進黨團希望休息五分鐘來私底下協調一下我們先休息五分休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5911.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5913.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
等一下 知道就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
6277.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
6301.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好的好的 謝謝 謝謝各位協商的幹部請坐 謝謝大家都很熱情 很踴躍的表達自己的意見但是很遺憾 始終沒有辦法達成共識所以我再宣告一下第二條我們保留現在 對不起 更正柯建銘委員 柯建銘總召要求發言 請柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
6311.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
6334.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主席 各位同仁剛才很高興有機會在休息時間說大家有一些討論和共識基本的看法就是說我們都是國家法制的工作者那國家法制也有它一定的路和一定的標準所謂基本法的話就是沒有主管去管 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
6335.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
6354.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那法案一定有它主管機關 這是國家法制的標準從來沒有人會去破壞這個情形那我都知道在座的每一位包括這個房間裡面每一個人 不管委員也罷行政官也罷 所有每一個人都非常關心國家煉愛產業的發展煉愛產業是國家國域的表徵 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
6358.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
6383.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以在這種情形底下我們共同的希望就是說這個法我們希望能夠好好的通過能夠讓我們AI產業就有一個基本法的存在在這裡我拜託各位大家就不要再堅持要寫主管機關了因為從來沒有這種立法例的這樣的話我們今天所有問題就迎刃而解以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
6388.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
6389.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我再反映一下嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
6390.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
6419.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好那個陳美媛請發言好謝謝院長剛剛我們花了很多力氣跟院長也一起進行討論非常謝謝韓國瑜院長一起參與其實在科學技術基本法第十條裡面就講到國家科學技術發展計畫的訂定要參佐中央研究院科學技術相關部門產業部門相關社會團體的意見然後召開全國科學技術會議討論由行政院核定所以這也就是為什麼述發部還有國科會副主委剛剛其實是有所本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
6419.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
6435.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
跟葛如君委員報告要用行政院核定的概念那甚至我們剛剛在講到由行政院層級所召開的戰略指導委員會一直是葛如君委員要求的其實相關部門也已經同意了認為這個事情雖然有跌床架屋的嫌疑但是大家還是願意做 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
6435.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
6457.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以我想在相關基本法裡面過去的法理歷上沒有指定主管機關這件事情並不代表行政院沒有做請不要再用這樣無謂的指控我想相關AI的預算 計畫 科研 基礎建設其實大家可以看到從賴總統上任到現在一直都有在推進我相信葛如君委員也非常清楚我知道葛如君委員擔心相關科研沒有預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
6459.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
6461.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
沒有一個所謂的主管機關讓您所擔心的產業研究單位或是產業發展單位或是基礎建設單位冤有頭債有主想要找到中央主管機關給予預算支持給予政策支持的時候你很怕找不到頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
6474.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
6491.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
但是剛剛行政院跟書發部對不起國科會跟書發部也說得很清楚了相關於行政院核定的計劃再加上如果您剛剛要的所謂戰略指導委員會裡面甚至可能還有國發會角色剛才國務院長也講了本來就會有相關預算在不同的部門裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
6492.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
6519.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以我要再次強調一我們已經有一個共識就是國家戰略指導委員會會成立而在這個委員會底下把不同的部會拉進來然後行政院相關推進的政策跟預算甚至還有國發會的角色我想葛如君委員你所在意的科研預算基礎建設預算產業支持預算應該都會有所本也會有所著落以上要拜託葛委員還有劉淑冰委員的支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6520.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6546.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
何科進委員請發言好 謝謝院長謝謝陳培余院長那剛才何進明對不起 陳培余陳培余書記長因為這個案子真的這個案子真的對大家太重要了所以作為一個人類有時候也是會犯錯嘛那懇請大家給點見諒啦那我想為什麼我們認為這個法案一定要有頭是因為如果是無頭法案台灣的AI發展就會變成牽頭馬車啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6549.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6567.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
事實上剛剛柯建民總召有一直提到說行政院會來協調但事實上我們其實可以看到在這個法案推動的過程上面其實行政院從一開始說叫做AI內閣結果空中樓閣一個AI基本法一直提不出草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6568.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6584.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
一開始是由國科會來進行到10月份國科會是在這整個AI基本法推動上面最負責任的部會也有最完整理解的部會在去年10月準時推出結果咧在2月26號今年2月26號我們的行政院突然間大轉彎說整個AI基本法要轉給速發部來處理結果咧速發部就神隱了就不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6595.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6622.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我們一路等到7月15號還沒有等到草案進來結果我們只好在委員會裡面耗盡了數十個小時在沒有草案的情況沒有行政院版草案的情況之下非常艱難的完成了數十條的協商的共識那現在呢突然跟我們講說最好的方案就是沒有主管機關請問這樣要叫我們如何接受這樣的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6623.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6647.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
同时刚刚有提到基本法的体力是没有主管机关的这也完全不是事实我们的新住民基本法对我们台湾的整个社会发展最重要的一个法案之一就是有主管机关是内政部所以现在整个新住民不管是生活教育也都做得非常好因为这是发展非常快而且影响非常深的变化 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6648.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6675.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那我想人工智慧絕對符合這樣的條件這也是為什麼我們認為要有主管機關而且這個主管機關要是對科研的發展以及軟體硬體科技跨部會的協調都有足夠能力的主管機關這也是為什麼我們認為應該是以國科會作為主管機關的一個非常重要原因謝謝那個劉書斌委您還要您發言是如果意見一致就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6677.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6702.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們還是要表達一個議場我們跟國民黨其實有一個共識是AI基本法一定要有主管機關不然的話千頭萬緒到時候沒有人負責這部分那尤其是在整個立法過程當中所呈現出來的速發部一直是在呈現一個包括在審理過程中把AI的主權我現在想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6706.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6731.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
但是你們就是沒有說不要影響到我們的發言這個我們想說AI現在目前的重要性是在所謂科研發展那另外的部分在AI主權這部分上面的時候就呈現出來一個有一種卡關然後就是比較有所謂的在比較有限制然後框架這個部分這樣的情況之下我們想要爭取的是說是不是在後面的部分我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6731.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6756.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
在主管機關這邊我們是一定要爭取是說要有個主管機關那這一部分在表達出我們的立場之後我們可能再做一個協商我們希望馬上就可以有一些想法現在葛如君委員所提跟你前半部是一模一樣嘛就是一定要有個主管機關那他現在堅持第二部分他就是國科會來負責你現在是還沒有希望現在我們可能再做更進一步的協商也許有機會再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6760.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6766.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我是針對剛才國務卿委員的發言我提出一些看法就教國務卿委員可能有些誤解我們並沒有新署名基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6787.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6808.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們是新住民發展法所以主管局會是內政部發展法新住民基本法今年初已經通過了是發展法 基本法就沒有主管局會新住民發展法 你去查一下嘛新住民發展法 因為我們是主張基本法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6814.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6815.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
麻煩請國科會 請部長請國科會請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6821.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6844.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我不是法律專業我是科技專業但是依我的瞭解為什麼基本法不需要主管機關因為基本法就是放在那邊然後接下來所有作用法要由各個部會去負責去立法所以有了基本法以後行政院就可以講說由訴發部你要訂什麼樣AI相關的法案然後國科會要訂什麼樣的相關法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6845.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6868.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
然後衛福部需要跟AI什麼法案所以基本法是基本上它本身不是一個作用法所以不需要一個主管機關去做日常的那個運作運行我的理解是這樣子所以就是說只要是行政院它本身來負責這個分派工作就可以了以上那個好謝謝林部長的發言我們現在請那個陳副主委麻煩請 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6870.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6899.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好 謝謝院長因為國科會這邊其實我們主要的還是針對於科研的部分那所以的確AI的科研是我們在幫忙處理就是支持老師們做研究然後推動這個AI的尖端的科技的研發那但是AI基本上真的要賺錢它還是要跟產業做結合所以如果能夠是由不列這個主管機關我們可以統合行政院所有的力量的話其實應該是會更有效率啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6902.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6930.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
各位在主法 阿信谢谢院长我想我做简短的发言事实上大家可以想象一个没有主管机关状态的AI发展是什么就是我们现在全民在期盼AI基本法结果一拖再拖的状态过去一下子是国科会一下子是速发部然后我们已经在立院审法案了结果速发部多次跳票不愿意把草案送进来 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6931.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6947.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個就是所謂的沒有主管機關的AI發展的狀態怎麼有辦法讓民眾跟產業相信這樣的狀態還可以持續呢第二點剛才所提到的各種的說法其實都非常有道理但是我還是要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6949.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6961.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
剛剛陳副主委所提的當然是現在的一個狀態但是在初期最需要的確實就是對科研的理解對科研的理解將會是我們在這段時間發展AI最重要的一個領頭剛剛院長也說了要有頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6965.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6991.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個如果是無頭法案那台灣的AI就會變成牽頭馬車那就會變成現在完全沒有一個重點可以跟其他國家來抗衡我們到現在還是只有一個半導體而相關的半導體還正在移動當中所以我想國科會也是這段時間最負責的在去年10月準時的提出AI基本法的草案所以最後一點我想提的是我們並不是說台灣的AI基本法就永遠由國科會來擔任主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6994.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6999.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
而是現階段需要一個主管機關而現階段最適合的主管機關是國科會那也謝謝剛才柯建民總召有提到這個新住民基本法雖然一時口誤就像我今天不小心口誤了這個頭銜 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
7011.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
7023.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我想人類會犯錯那我們希望AI不要犯錯但是AI其實還正在犯錯當中所以我們需要有一個明確的主管的部會來帶領著人類跟AI一起發展這是我們的願望 謝謝謝謝 我想可以感受到葛禄君委員跟我們劉淑冰委員的熱情 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
7034.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
7056.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
事實上在立法院這麼多年來我們看到很多法律的制定包括環境基本法夠大了吧環境基本法裡面還要求行政院對於國家永續發展委員會要有些要求但是環境基本法它在2002年通過之後環境部是在裡面的環境基本法的第30條先有環境基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
7057.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
7076.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
而後有環境部定在環境基本法第30條它規定行政院要設置一個專責機構來統籌各項的環境基本法的相關事宜所以如果以葛如君委員的期待先有AI基本法或許未來我們就有一個AI部這是有可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
7077.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
7095.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以我是覺得大家的立法目的都是相同但是在立法的體力上有基本法由行政院來統籌而後以環境基本法為例他就催生了一個環境部說不定以後我們AI部葛國瑜還是首任部長也不一定所以我是覺得這個事情呢是可以從體力上來思考的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
7102.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
7119.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
剛才劉志明委員講的已經非常有智慧的話他說有機會這個條件是有機會就是用基本法的看法所以希望我們把握這個機會去創這個基本法就不要有主管機關了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
7124.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
7152.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我想我們暫停 因為已經發言一下差不多都在循環 容許我我現在宣告一下 既然大家意見沒有辦法達成共識我們就先保留我們送院會處理這中間還有什麼時間的時候 我們再來去我們黨團直接都可以溝通嘛 好不好好 那希望不如我再去跟葛如心委員溝通一下我們現在進入第三條葛如心委員所提案台灣民眾黨團也有提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
7153.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
7171.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
提案的委員行政院提案有31個提案的版本總共有31個提案的版本那我想先請提案委員葛國軍委員請發言是我們在第三條的部分呢其實就是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
7176.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
7191.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們現在這一條討論的就是人工智慧的定義事實上人工智慧的定義非常重要它到底自主運行的程度如何以及背後是不是有人在操控以及它到底是只有數位的還是只有實體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
7192.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
7211.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那我们其实是参彩了非常多最新的设计跟思维的想法提出了一个我们认为是当前因为我们台湾的AI基本法可以说是希望后发先至所以我们现在Late Follower的状态我们反而可以看到非常多的体力正在修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
7211.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
7223.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
包含往實體前進等等所以我們提出了一個可能是全世界目前最完整也是最適合來這個發展AI的一個定義那也希望這個部會能夠參採那也希望其他的黨團能夠認同 謝謝那現在接下來陳培鈺委員請發言主席我們剛剛手上拿到這個請問這個是速發部提議的院版的修正文字嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
7237.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
7252.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
行政院好 院版修正文字那是不是可以請各位委員確認一下跟您的版本之間的差異剛剛收到手上 請各位委員參考一下那台灣民眾黨團有寶貴意見嗎剛剛送來行政院所提的人工智慧定義的建議條文請參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
7258.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
7272.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
各位請這一點我可能要提出來跟速發部還有國客會稍微請教一下因為速發部這一次所提出來的人工智慧是指具自主運行能力之系統那我們現在知道其實AI從自動駕駛汽車來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
7275.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
7299.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
它還有分Level 0 1 2 3 4甚至有到5的那自主能力的分類分級不同那如果你是說只具自主運行能力是說全自主還是半自主是否都含瓜在內或者人型機器人現在有分Level 1全部用Tele up所謂遠距遙控跟Level 4全自主運行 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
7300.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
7329.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那我想請教一下速發部現在您的定義這個只具自主運行能力是只要有就算那如果只要有就算的話那變成以前還沒有check GPT的時候我們電腦裡面也有一些建議啊自動翻譯啊是不是也算那這樣是不是又變得太廣所以這一點我希望能夠主管機關是不是可以稍微做個說明林部長麻煩您這個行政院剛剛送來版本加格吳俊偉的發言您融合一下請表達一下您寶貴的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
7336.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7343.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
慢慢來沒問題謝謝你林部長請就第二行第一段的第二個段落是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7344.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7370.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
基本上就是因為AI它是一個不斷演化的一個技術那我們認為說具備自主能力它可能是部分是有人的參與也可能是完全是沒有人的參與或者是將來甚至有一些AI系統它自己會改善自己所以我們現在用的這個文字具備就是它有這個能力只要有這個能力我們就去做規範我們的想法是這樣子這樣子的話我們的範圍會比較彈性一點謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7375.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7401.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
各位可以接受可以接受這個部分我想我們大概理解另外我也指出一下我們的條文有一個地方也跟院版的不一樣就是我們有提到背後要有人就是我們的版本是達成人為定義的一系列目的不過確實剛剛部長也有說明未來的AI很可能也會完全沒有人自主運行我想抒發部這個條文也許在涵蓋範圍是廣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7402.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7417.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
但也希望未來我們有主管機關的情況我相信他就比較容易判斷到底哪一些類別的AI我們要再更多花力氣來進行這個是我們是可以接受這個建議討論 謝謝好 那個民進黨團跟台灣民眾黨團都可以接受行政這個版本以及葛珠晶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7418.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7439.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
沒問題那我們第三條我們就照協商條文通過 好嗎好 謝謝行政院人工建議條文我們照協商條文通過行政院建議版本 謝謝我們進入第七條葛如君委員台灣民眾黨團都有提出我們請 一樣提案委員 葛如君委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7449.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7478.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
請 我已經請你發言了 請好 謝謝院長那也謝謝我們今天這麼用心的有不同的黨派的同仁還有我們的相關的機關部會那這一點為什麼我們認為一定要有一個行政院的戰略委員會的原因是現在AI從2022年有CHAT GPT發展之後到現在我們可以說有非常多人對於台灣的AI發展的戰略其實還是不清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7478.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7496.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們唯一知道只有行政院的AI內閣從1.0變成2.0但是我們的發展方向2.0跟1.0到底差別在哪裡其實是不確定的所以我們認為這個要有一個戰略委員會把各界的豪傑從學界到產業界甚至地方都能夠納入進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7498.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7516.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
一起來做我們台灣下一個世代的AI戰略而事實上這樣的一個做法也是非常符合我們剛剛提到的像日本剛通過的AI促進法就成立了所謂的AI戰略本部而且是由日本首相來直接兼任部長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7517.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7540.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
另外南韓的部分也有成立這樣的一個發展委員會我們認為在台灣我們也是有一個類似的這樣的架構對於我們的整個戰略的發展的推進會更有共識我想這個也是我們希望能夠有一個委員會在這裡作為一個狀態去推進台灣的一個AI的發展一個非常重要的原因 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7541.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7564.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
謝謝葛如荊委員清楚的表達意見那台灣民眾黨團有提第八條台灣民眾黨團要不要一併表達意見民進黨請準備沒有 好 請民進黨發言請柯總召這個條文我看請事務部發表一下意見應該是可以接受吧事務部發布林部長請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7566.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7579.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
如同我們之前所表達的就是我們認為說這個戰略委員會是不一定需要的因為實在作為部會的首長我們經常都在開會我們覺得會實在是太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7580.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7597.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
不過如果說那個葛委員還有國民黨黨團這邊就是堅持主張的話我們是可以接受的 謝謝民進黨團也同意也認為要設立一個如果書發部可以接受的話好不好那如果大家都同意的話我們第七條就照協商條文通過好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7599.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7627.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
陳倍昱委員請發言院長 因為他們好像之前還有保留一個附帶決議是跟第七條有關他們是 葛委員這邊的提議是說希望委員會的成員行政部門不要過半這個是不是也可以請書發部表達一下意見第七條附帶決議在第七條通過之後我們請葛主任委員附帶決議這個你要不要一併來說明一下這是柯之恩委員 謝榮介委員劉書斌委員 林沛翔委員都有簽字 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7629.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7653.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
謝謝院長 這個部分我想最主要的都還是說確保人工智慧戰略特別委員會呢是能夠代表各界的需求啦那這個會議上面我們的本文是說每年至少召開一次那現在這個附帶決議是希望呢每年至少召開會議兩次那我想這個部分也許可以聽聽看速發部跟國科會相關的意見 謝謝等一下 等一下 對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7656.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7671.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
法條是一次嘛 你戶外協議協議兩次沒有戶外協議是超越法條的你要調整一下你自己打一下照法條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7675.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7692.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們就附帶決議取消好不好可是主席 可是這邊有說委員會不得過辦為限職公務員這個部分可能要把它納入到一個核心或是在立法議席上面要呈現出來因為如果都是限職公務員這個附帶決議其實有兩個重點嘛一個就是這個規定它的組成是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7696.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7711.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那第二個部分是時間嘛會議每年至少兩次所以在原來的第一個重點當中的限職公務員就是不要被應該有產業的引導性的發展等等的所以我想這個內容可能要把它放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7712.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7733.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
第四行的第二個part把它刪掉 前面保留蘇阿部表示一項意見蘇阿部他的意思就 劉書斌委員的意思就是他有兩個重點一個就是代表人事第二個就是一年開兩次會他把第二個一年開兩次會這段刪掉把前面這個保留起來所有參與的人不僅限於公務員您請表達意見好嗎OK 關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7736.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7760.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個委員不得是不是半數以上是限職公務人員我想這個會影響到整個會議的性質如果一半以上是產業界的代表還有那個學術界的專家的話這個就是一個表述意見的一個會議那如果說參加了一半以上是公務人員的話限職公務人員的話那這個會議的結論就會通常是會去執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7763.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7768.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個會議本身會因為這個人數限職公務人員是不是過半而他性質 我覺得認為會發生改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7771.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7796.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這是一個很嚴肅的問題這是一個很嚴肅的問題我們所有的行為是國家行為所以一定要過半 公務員一定要過半否則的話 被民間在主導當然是一個 民間的 seminar 的性質而已這是一個非常嚴肅的問題蘇編委員 這個跟附帶決議的精神是有一點不一樣你能不能再思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7798.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7811.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這邊可能要詢問葛如君委員吧因為這一部分或是當初我們有一起協商就是說這個是政策協調監督與整合的樞紐所以不需要去做這個部分的一個因為他想說一個前瞻性因為可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7812.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7841.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
目前的官員可能會有一些比較有一種局限性甚至是拘泥原來的這樣的一個形式的方便 行政方便但是忘了或是跟國際間的一種像現在中研院的這些中研院的部分或是說有更多的產業界是他在民間的他可能有一些這種前瞻這種的意思在那如果這部分的話我想格魯俊委員你是不是要提供一下意見因為這邊是 沒問題我來我等一下會請格魯俊委員那個陳佩玥請 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7841.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7866.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
院長我只是要問一個程序的問題因為我們之前在協商的時候後來又有院版進來那可是剛剛念的是葛如君委員的版本所以可不可以確定一下我們等一下我們剛剛說好不用保留的第七條到底是根據哪一個版本照行政院版本好 謝謝院長 謝謝可是行政院的版本是沒有列在葛如君委員所提等37位提案版本協商通過好 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7869.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7883.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那那個現在這個附帶決議各位 你沒有意見那如果沒有意見的話 劉書斌委員現在就是如果葛如君委員也不堅持我們是附帶決議我們就那就不要了好 謝謝我們附帶決議就不予通過好 謝謝我們進入18條18條一樣葛如君委員等有 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7897.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7900.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
葛珠晶委員等提案以及台灣民眾黨團18、19、20、21、23請葛珠晶委員所發言好嗎再來台灣民眾黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7907.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7928.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好謝謝第18條的部分呢事實上我們看到速發部這裡所建議的條文是有提到說要做這個風險分類的框架那這個地方初期我們是初步是認同的但是我們還是認為要有協助各目的事業主管機關訂定以風險為這個相關的一個基礎的一個管理規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7935.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7954.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那因為各個部會對於AI的了解不管是數位的還是實體的或許不一定一致所以我想這個目前現在看起來我們還是這個我們看到的這個建議的條文我們比較沒有特別同意速發部的這個文字上面的內容描述 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7970.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7994.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
不好意思 院長我補充說明不好意思 剛剛文件版本上面還是有點不一樣我現在拿到最新的版本因為我們這個人類的速度要趕上AI所以我們剛剛也用最快的速度跟速發部有稍微討論過了文字細節我們剛剛講的是文字細節我們比較難與同意但是現在已經有一個新的版本文字細節我們是認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7994.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
8005.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
就是數位發展部應參考國際標準或規範推動與國際界階之人工智慧風險分類框架並應協助各目的事業主管機關訂定以風險為基礎之層級管理規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
8010.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
8028.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
各目的事業主管機關英式人工智慧應用那後面文字是一樣的不過前面這個是之層級管理還是分類管理這個前面有分類後面有分層級這一點可能速發部要稍微說明一下因為這樣文字上可能又會不一致囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
8028.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
8045.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
因為現在國際是從分級又改回分類了就categorize可是您現在的這個文字是前面是用分類後面用分層還有分級這個又有layer又有這個不同的這個這是不是文字上我們還要再再 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
8046.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
8067.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
細琢一下沒有 那您具體的建議是什麼不用客氣你覺得我具體建議是如果都用分類就都用分類吧是不是不要用層級了是不是給書報部回答一下書報部您看看這個葛孟靜委員一直說前面是分類框架後面是不是用分類管理讓它前後一致我們就把那個層級那兩個字拿掉好不好好 就拿掉那兩個字OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
8070.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
8090.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就是把後面那段你補充這個乘幾兩個字刪掉對 把乘幾兩個字刪掉好 那這個風險分類建議條文大家在手上都非常清楚了就是把第二行它所增加的部分的倒數第六個字乘幾兩個字刪掉其他都不變好 OK可以嗎可以好 如果沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
8093.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
8112.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不好意思 院長他這一個的一二三四第四行有成績要改要不要就一起改一下那這個第四行還有一個成績是不是咱們也把它拿掉我們再找 還有沒有成績再找一下成績就在你心中了 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
8115.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
8134.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 我們修正一下我們第一行不變第二行倒數第六個字的層級我們把它取消掉 劃掉第四行訂定以風險為基礎之管理規範這是吧那其他都不變再請教一下各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
8152.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
8176.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
剩下這個民眾黨團他們本來有問責跟罰則剛剛看起來他是說不堅持那那個林部長我們現在院版的第10條是包括在18條裡面請看一下院版有第9條第10條是 我們那個原來第10條我們就不堅持好的 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
8183.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
8193.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好 我們第18條就照協商條文通過行政院的建議條文好 謝謝大家我們進入台灣民眾黨團所提的第33條至第39條請台灣民眾黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
8201.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
8216.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這邊說起來就因為我們當初的版本是用作用法所以我們把明確的問責機制跟罰則就列得很清楚我們還是有我在講的原因是他必須要呈現說 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
8219.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
8239.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
在現在的情況之下因為作用法嘛那當然問責機制就會有發責不過因為現在是基本法性質我們想這一個部分希望說他的一個問責的部分應該現在有一個框架出來問責機制後面就會運用到的就就沒有清楚了不堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
8244.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
8250.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
謝謝 謝謝劉淑冰委員的發言我們台灣民眾黨團所提的第33條至39條我們就不予採納好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
8261.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
8273.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們進入最後面的尾聲我們進入第19條有行政院提案等28個提案版本也葛珠君委員所提案台灣民眾黨團都有提案我們請提案委員 葛珠君委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8282.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8301.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 謝謝院長 這個部分其實在講的就是相關的法規條式因為我們都一直說台灣是科技之島 然後行政院也多次表達它是AI內閣但事實上看到我們現在有非常多的法令對於AI的發展是相對不友善的包含我們講的這個FSD 自動駕駛車子 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8304.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8332.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
这个车子里面的晶片都是台湾做的都是台湾的工程师的心血那现在在韩国已经上路日本即将在明年初上路结果台湾没有办法上路所以我们有相当多的法规对于AI是相对的不够前瞻所以我们就希望有AI基本法通过以后就像一个我们AI发展的北极星那政府呢要赶快来确认有没有与之汉格跟这个发展方向有汉格 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8332.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8357.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
或者甚至是阻礙发展的法条尤其近来美国也订定了AI action plan所以在AI行动方案之下也是往要去做法规的集合调试来做这样的一个方向我们看到行政院有认同这样的一个做法不过时间拉的比较长我们在委员会讨论的时候我本来本席是坚持一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8358.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8381.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那行政院是三年那我們是希望說是不是能夠就兩年因為AI真的發展太快了這個從2023到現在兩年已經天翻地覆了我們沒有再更多的三年可以進行我們希望能夠再更短一點讓政府能夠高速運轉起來這個真正的AI內閣展現實力 謝謝來 行政院表示一下 兩人怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8383.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8408.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那個林部長請沒有問題沒有問題可以接受台灣民眾黨團有寶貴意見嗎我們也是堅持就兩年應該縮短陳培文有意見嗎沒有沒有好謝謝兩年改了兩年嗎我們就是照葛如軍委員所提的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8410.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8412.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
37位协商条文通过好第19条 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8416.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8441.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
院長因為他們剛剛那個速發佈發下來有一個院版新增的強化可信度的建議條文可信任度這個你們可不可以請速發佈說明一下就是沒有在協商版本裡面是剛剛速發佈送出來的建議可信任度的建議條文有嗎沒有在協商版本裡面怎麼討論沒關係因為他們那個剛才已經講過那個地方我們不堅持他不堅持速發佈院版第10條但沒有要堅持好OK謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8461.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8473.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個第18條有第5條協商條文第一項所列的情勢要依法令限制或禁止之要跟大家討論一下大家有沒有寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8477.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8503.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們就是第18條 跟這行政院所提的風險分類建議條文好不好 這就拿了取消掉了 好嗎對對對 好 我們就取消掉了我宣告一下 好要問那幾個字 取消掉 對對 刪掉了 刪掉了 我剛已經宣告了好 請放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8523.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8537.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
好 我們現在來請宣讀一下確認一下是 報告院長報告院長有關於法規調適的那個文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8538.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8559.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那個法規條室的那個條文裡面有一個中央目的事業主管機關在最後一段最後一段在這個中央目的主管機關接同中央主管機關這本的25頁第19條保留然後第二行第二行的那個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8560.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8573.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
然後倒數第二行有一個由中央目的事業主管機關會商中央數位發展主管機關如果第二條主管機關暫時保留這個地方的文字是不是也應該要先是病毒保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8647.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8667.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個影響太大 這個法庭不會啦 葛君瑋很棒送人玫瑰 手留餘香 非常棒你要鼓勵一下接玫瑰的人一起施肥 好不好對 你那個送人玫瑰 你那個玫瑰 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8669.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8672.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個AI的土壤是三黨一起努力的好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8738.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8753.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
各位黨團幹部請稍安勿躁讓我來宣告一下協商結論時間114年12月4號星期四下午2點半我們協商的主題行政院函請審議人工智慧基本法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8755.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8782.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
葛禄君委員等37位 邱若驊等17位羅廷惠等17位 萬美玲等18位徐珍等20位 張家俊等21位林倩琪等23位 邱毅英等20位吳宗憲等17位賴世寶等28位 楊瓊英等26位分別凝聚人工智慧基本法草案台灣民眾黨團凝聚人工智慧發展及管理條例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8783.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8800.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
許智傑等27位林怡瑾等26位張雅琳等18位謝依鳳等17位陳秀寶等25位林思明等17位范雲等18位分別凝聚人工智慧基本法草案等19案3 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8802.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8828.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
廖偉祥等19位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案4.徐巧欣等16位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案5.王美惠委員等18位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案6.郭玉琴委員等19位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案7.吳佩奕委員等23位 凝聚人工智慧基本法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8831.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8845.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
8.賴銳龍等20位凝聚人工智慧基本法草案9.林月琴等28位凝聚人工智慧基本法草案10.徐富奎等16位委員凝聚人工智慧基本法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8848.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8871.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
11.黃捷等17位委員凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案12.陳金威委員等21位凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案13.邱振軍等22位凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案14.葉元芝等18位凝聚《人工智慧基本法》草案我們協商結論一 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8873.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8885.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
協商通過條文函8月21日黨團協商結果通過如後赴二保留條文送請院會處理第二條第19條三 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8888.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8891.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
不予採納條文 提案第33條至第39條其餘照審查通過保留條文願會進行處理時廣泛討論 由台灣民眾黨團推派一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8909.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8931.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
民進黨團推派一位國民黨團推派一位每位委員發言時間三分鐘逐條討論時我們不再發言依序進行各條文黨團版本之處理請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有好 謝謝我們就請協商代表簽字 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8954.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8970.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
謝謝 謝謝各位今天列席的官員 非常感謝大家我們進入第四案 114年度附屬單位遇上案我們今天只處理營業部分謝謝今天列席的各位官員 謝謝 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
9024.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
9051.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好 謝謝我們今天協商代表我們經濟部拱部長請坐總理好 謝謝經濟部拱部長 列席官員我們第二位台堂的吳董事長董事長嗎 吳董事長 台堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
9056.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
9079.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
台灣中油的方董事長 請坐台灣電力公司王總經理 歡迎您請坐台灣自來水李董事長 歡迎您請坐台塘的吳董事長到了嗎好 請坐好 各位黨團幹部我們現在開始進入經濟部主管的台塘我們第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
9082.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
9104.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
產銷營運勞工安全衛生國民黨黨團提案現在改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見好 我們通過進入第二案台灣民眾黨團所提凍結50%國務部長請表達意見好嗎是 報告主席因為我們這筆錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
9108.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
9129.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們已經執行了大概900多萬了那預估到年底還要執行在總共1200多萬所以凍結掉將近800萬這個等於就是已經超過了所以有沒有可能如果要凍結是不是凍結少一點比如說凍結300萬這樣子或者是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
9135.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
9141.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
台灣民眾黨團張祺凱副總召請發言這我們黨團非常堅持那就送到院會處理啦對 我們也沒辦法他現在已經動資了800在動資了900目前1500已經動資了900 剩600多 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
9157.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
9183.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
而且到年底可能還要用三百就是可能要支出一千兩百一千兩百多這樣子沒關係就到議會處理啦送到議會處理老公案前衛生了你有沒有改組決議而且這個前任的吳董事長這個我們也已經我懂 我懂部長的 柯總召請發言是不是改組決議就好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
9186.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
9188.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
莊旗開會委員明天黨團第一該主席這我們黨團討論過啦這我們黨團討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
9197.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
9225.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那我們就第二輪再協商好不好 好不好好 謝謝 我們進入第三案我們第二 保留到第二輪那個固定資產建設改組 國民黨團所提的改組決議大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 我們通過第四國民黨團的組決議 沒通過我們進入中油公司國民黨團所提議的改組決議公安環保及衛生 大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
9226.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
9255.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
第六案國民黨團所提議的公安環保及衛生改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過我們進入第七第七案組決議國民黨團陳昌明的組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第八案陳昌明委員所提的組決議沒有意見通過第九案邱若驊委員的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有修正通過好第十案顏寬衡委員所提組決議大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
9255.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9278.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
沒有沒有意見我們通過第十一案李昆成委員所提主決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過第十二案李昆成委員所提大家有沒有寶貴意見主決議沒有意見通過第十三案李昆成委員所提出主決議大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見通過第十四案張綺凱委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9279.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9297.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
沒有沒有意見 我們修正通過我們進入台灣電力公司第15案國民黨團所提工業安全改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們通過第16案國民黨團游浩文所提的策案大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9302.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9324.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們就測案了 我們進入第17案李彥秀委員所提的改組決議大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見 我們就改組決議台灣民眾黨團第18案所提 簡列1000萬我們請台電說明我們同意好 經濟部台電同意 我們簡列1000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9326.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9339.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們進入第19案李彥秀委員所提改組決議購入電力有沒有意見 沒有意見我們就改組決議通過20案台灣民眾黨所提簡列351億8393萬9千元請經濟部說明這個案子因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9348.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9375.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那當然就是想要減我們那個再生能源的部分但是再生能源編列的是1588億那因為再生能源基本上的准購事實上依法是要編列的依法要指付的那個是再生能源法案條例裡面規定的那但是我們現在執行的話通常會執行到九成所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9376.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9400.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們可以同意說是簡略158億謝謝龔部長的說明提案了台灣民眾黨團經濟部提出158億151億 請問您我提供三個很重要第一個就是龔部長提的這個九成我先請你看一下113年度你的執行率是只有68.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9403.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9415.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
68.3 也就是編了1324億上執行只有905億有419億沒有執行不是你預定的九成喔是只有六成八所以如果減類351億 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9418.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9437.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
比原來的執行還要來得少這是第一個點第二個為什麼一定要這是要刪減這個要減類這個因為我們政府去買的歷電價格太高了我很明確跟他講114年的這個再生能源我們去買是一度電是5塊3結果賣出去賣4塊7這每賣一度電就賠了0.7塊錢還有剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9445.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9461.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
你的執行率又是偏低的還有一個現在還有一個分手費就是我們買了之後如果這個業者發現說現在那個價格民間業者的價格民間這個店價比較高的他還可以跟我們台電說我們分手然後給你一個比較低的錢到外面去賺比較多的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9462.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9491.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個不合理啊所以記一剛講的這三個理由第一個你買店就已經是賠錢了你執行率也是偏低的第三個分手費給的人家說分手快樂結果業者是快樂台電不快樂我們人民也不快樂記這三點理由所以我覺得一定要砍掉減類十分之一就是原來的三千五百一十八億減類堅持減類三千五百一十一十分之一不是三百減類三百五十一億八千三百九十三萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9495.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9513.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那經濟部所提的151 您不接受好 那我們本案保留到二輪再說好現在我們進入21案 國民黨團所提凍結2000 王一鳴所提出王一鳴委員現在在各位手上已經同意改組結議了大家沒意見 我們就通過我們進入22案 王一鳴 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9526.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9534.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
22案書店台灣民眾黨轉題凍結8億4768萬6千元請經濟部說明 謝謝因為現在凍結的話時間如果這個是不是併經同意後如果可以刪除我們就同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9547.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9556.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們就交報告22案是凍結8億對 如果兼職的話4768萬我們就同意三個月內來我們經濟委員會專案報告我們就同意凍結經濟部同意凍結8億那民進黨團跟國民黨團經濟部長已經表達他們的意見我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9575.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9599.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那個你要做一個文字修正就是你把併經統一這五個字要取消不行不行不行這是必要條件他不同意那我們就進入二輪好不好我們先進二輪再說好謝謝部長沒問題棋開委員沒問題我們進入二輪之後回頭還會再來的我們進入23案國民黨團黃委員所提該組決議大家沒意見沒意見我們通過24案李彥秀委員撤案好 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9600.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9628.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
第二十五案黃國昌委員凍結兩千萬付費用請經濟部說明我們同樣的道理如果那個併金同意後如果不能刪的話我們就那我們就保留到二輪好 謝謝我們進入二十六案陳超明委員改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過二十七案黃仁委員所提改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過二十八案國民黨陳超明減列五千萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9630.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9648.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那個經濟部請說明一樣啊 就是已經修正 文字修正同意以後嘛3減5千萬這個可以接受嗎好 經濟部同意我們本案減列5千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9651.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9676.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們現在進入二十九案 顏寬恒委員的文字修正 主決議文字修正大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 修正通過三十案 李昆城委員所提的主決議有沒有意見 沒有意見 我們通過第三十一案 邱若驊委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 我們修正通過三十二案 張祺凱委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見 沒有意見 沒有意見 修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9678.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9704.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
33案陳超明委員所提的修正文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有柯總長 你反應好快喔好 修正通過我們第34案張志倫委員所提的張志倫委員所提的主決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過35案林德福委員所提的主決議有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過36案王美惠委員所提的主決議有沒有意見沒有意見 通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9705.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9722.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
三十七案 邱若驊委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們修正通過三十八案 李昆成委員所提的主決議大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們通過三十九案 顏寬恒委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 我們修正通過好 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9724.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9737.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
好我們接下來自來水股份有限公司黃仁委員所提40案改為主決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過41案黃國昌委員所提簡列1000萬凍結1000萬請經濟部表達意見因為我們的這個主要這一筆錢是在做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9747.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9770.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
電腦軟體的維護跟維修還有他的這個資安的保全資安總共是1.1億另外的1000萬是保全所以1.2億就是在做這個軟體或者是辦公室保全等等的費用跟法律的事務那個沒有什麼關係法律事務只有編50萬而已保佑 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9776.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9791.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
台灣民眾黨請表達意見我們保留到第二輪好 我們保留二輪第四十二案國民黨團黃仁委員所提改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過第四十三案台灣民眾黨團組決議沒有意見 通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9793.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9819.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第44案 李昆成委員所提 主決有沒有意見沒有意見 通過第45案 李昆成委員所提的文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 修正通過第46案 王美惠委員所提 主決有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好 我們通過前兩年你要簽署幾個大概我把它算成五個保留到第二輪再處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9825.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9843.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我們經濟部共五案保留進入二輪我們再協商 好嗎好 謝謝經濟部 謝謝好 謝謝我們中央銀行總裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9855.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9864.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們列席的官員中好謝謝各位已經開完會的經濟部請離開我們好不好謝謝我們現在換財政部好謝謝各位已經開完會請離場好嗎好謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9889.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9913.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好 謝謝好 謝謝啊 謝謝我們現在中央銀行楊總裁 歡迎您財政部阮次長 歡迎您金管局彭主委 歡迎您您坐前面嘛 彭主委行政院主計總署陳主席長 歡迎好 謝謝 我們進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9915.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9943.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
中央銀行國民黨團羅明財委員所提的第一案主決議沒有意見我們通過第二案羅明財委員提的主決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過我們你們有意見要自己趕快舉手跟院長講我沒有 沒有意見都沒有意見主決好 我們進入第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9944.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9970.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
台灣金控劉書斌委員所提簡列50萬請表達意見 台灣金控沒有意見可以接受 好 我們接受我們就第三案簡列50萬通過第四案 劉書斌委員改組決議大家沒意見 沒有意見 我們通過第五案 劉書斌委員改組決議沒有意見 我們通過第六案 劉書斌委員提文字修正大家沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9971.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9992.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們修正通過第七案 國民黨何董事長 土地銀行第七案我們遵照辦理好 現在我們改組決議第八 菸酒公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9998.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
10025.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
湯董事長謝謝 湯董這麼年輕第一次看到好 謝謝好年輕我們第一台灣菸酒公司第八案黃任委員所提的改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第九案黃任委員簡列五百萬請台灣菸酒公司財政部表達意見我們同意好 財政部同意我們簡列五百萬第十案游皓委員所提改組決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
10026.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
10047.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
各位黨團幹部有沒有意見 沒有意見 通過第十一案 邱若驊委員所提文字修正 大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們修正通過經管會中央存保中央存保公司好 政總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
10051.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
10072.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
請 請 請坐我們中央存保公司黃人委員所提的第12案改組決議大家沒意見 沒意見 通過第13案黃人委員所提的改組決議 有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過好 謝謝現在我們進入交通委員會謝謝彭主委 謝謝 謝謝各列席的官員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
10089.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
10103.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 現在進入交通 我們交通部陳部長 呃 次長 陳次長好 謝謝我們台鐵 我們鄭董事長 歡迎您請坐台灣港務公司周董事長 歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
10105.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
10124.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
桃園機場楊董事長 歡迎您請坐好 各位黨團幹部我們現在進入114年度副單位交通部主管第一案黃仁委員所提改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有 通過第二 劉書斌委員所提簡列200萬 凍結600萬 將書面報告請交通部表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
10130.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
10156.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們沒有意見好 同意我們第二案檢列兩百萬 凍結六百萬還有書面報告第三案民進黨團黃國昌所提凍結兩千萬民眾黨團 台灣民眾黨團所提 黃國昌委員所提凍結兩千萬請問交通部請表達一下是 我們是不是可以建議病兒委員會來決議辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
10159.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
10187.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
跟證 三案 四案 五案 併案處理請交通部一併表達意見是 我們三案 四案 五案呢是不是建議併委員會的決議來辦理委員會動的比較多啦對 委員會動的比較多台灣民眾黨團現在併委員會就是减 凍結五千萬而不是六千請台灣民眾黨團表達意見好嗎本來是三個案各凍結兩千萬嘛六千萬 然後現在如果是用委員會是五千啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
10189.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
10218.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
可以 可以 OK好 台灣民眾黨團接受三四五案我們共 照委員會意見凍結五千萬好 我們進入第六案 側案我們進入第七案邱若驊委員所提文字修正各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見修正通過第十八案邱若驊委員提文字修正沒有意見修正通過第九案李坤成委員所提文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
10220.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
10241.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
柯總召 你的反應真的乒乓球一樣 好快喔剛剛通過AI基本法 柯總召反應越來越快了我們進入第10案 李昆城委員組決議 大家有沒有意見沒有意見 我們通過第11案 李昆城文字修正 大家沒意見修正通過我們進入台灣港務公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
10242.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
10267.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
第十二案 黃仁委員提案改組決議第十三案 黃仁委員提改組決議第十四案 李昆城委員所提文字修正大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有修正通過第十五案 邱若驊委員所提文字修正大家有沒有意見沒有好 我們修正通過我們現在進入桃園國際機場第十六案 謝依鳳委員測案 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
10269.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
10297.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
第十七案 劉書斌委員所提改簡列五百萬元 凍結八千萬元請交通部表達意見我們沒有意見 同意好 交通部同意劉書斌委員所提簡列五百萬 凍結八千萬我們進入第十八案劉書斌委員改組決議我們通過第十九案民眾黨團黃國昌委員所提凍結兩億元請交通部表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
10298.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
10319.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們是不是可以凍結 不要凍結 然後把它改成書面報告現在交通部提出來 改為書面報告不需要凍結 請張啟凱委員表達意見我們送到議員會討論 第二輪再來進入二輪再說 好 考慮到二輪我們進入第二十案 邱若驊委員所提文字修正 大家有沒有寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
10321.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
10340.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們修正通過好 謝謝交通部列席的各位官員謝謝陳主席長 謝謝大家我做一個宣告今天協商部分我們到此為止分議院部分我們會擇期繼續進行二輪協商二 明天早上院會九點進行報告事項處理請各黨團黨編 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
10344.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
10353.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
敦促所有的委員7點鐘就可以開始簽到早上7點鐘就開始簽到現在協商 散會 |