| IVOD_ID |
17099 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17099 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025120129 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-04T10:01:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-04T11:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:57:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fca45cfcab5ea799a54ce60380744b9b19b4456b5c46cbb78c78765f521da660e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-04T10:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一(一)本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等31人、委員張智倫等16人、委員張嘉郡等23人、委員邱鎮軍等25人、國民黨黨團、委員陳超明等19人、委員馬文君等20人、委員羅智強等16人、委員黃建賓等16人及委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」、委員賴士葆等19人、委員林思銘等26人、委員黃健豪等18人、委員傅崐萁等21人、委員萬美玲等16人及委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」、委員賴士葆等26人及委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」、委員徐欣瑩等20人及委員林倩綺等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」、委員許宇甄等20人及委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」、委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」、委員廖偉翔等20人、委員林思銘等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案(二)委員陳玉珍等17人及委員廖先翔等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」(三)委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」及委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」(四)委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」二(一)本院司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等20人、委員柯志恩等18人、委員黃健豪等20人、委員葉元之等20人及委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、國民黨黨團、委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」、委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」、委員許宇甄等21人及委員萬美玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」、委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」、委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」(二)委員丁學忠等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」(三)委員廖先翔等22人、委員徐巧芯等18人、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人及委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」(四)委員陳玉珍等17人及委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:01:09 - 11:59:00 |
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各位委員各位部會長官各位媒體朋友大家早安我們現在就開始進行協商會議本日協商的主題是針對公務人員退休之前撫恤法部分條文修正草案以及公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1903.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1923.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
兩個主題來進行這個朝野協商那麼協商進行之前我先介紹到場的委員以及機關代表那麼首先先介紹鍾嘉斌委員然後陳美瑜委員張祺凱委員林沛翔委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1925.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1946.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
羅志強委員好 那麼今天出席的長官官員蠻多的那我這邊就是先介紹考試院的劉建興秘書長情緒部的施部長 世能階部長行政院人事行政總處的蘇俊榮人事長還有教育部的鄭英耀部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1948.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1967.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好 謝謝 那麼其餘的官員我就不再一一介紹那麼應邀列席的官員名單就列入公報記錄好 那麼我們現在就進行協商那本日會議協商的主題第一個主題就是司法法制委員會報告並案審查委員賴世寶等31人 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1972.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1999.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
拟据的公务人员退休之前抚恤法第37条条文修正草案等26案那审查会是在114年的11月5日就审查完据那审查的结果就是第3条第8条第37条及附表3第38条及增订附表3之1第67条及相关修正动议均保留送院会处理那么并且决议 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2000.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2017.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
院會討論之前必須交由黨團協商另外委員廖先祥等20人委員徐巧欣等16人委員羅廷維等22人委員陳玉珍等17人及委員鄭天才等16人的提案分別經過114年11月14日 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2020.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2035.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第十一届第四會期第九次院會及十一月二十一日第十次院會決定進附二讀與相關提案並案協商那以上共計六案會於今日一起並案協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2038.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2056.385 |
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協商開始時,請參閱協商條文的對照表、審查報告以及進付二讀提案的關係文書。與會委員如果有修正動議或是機關有建議的內容,都請提出書面,印發現場進行討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2063.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2071.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 那麼我現在再介紹幾位到場的委員有吳思瑤委員 郭玉琴委員還有范雲委員好 那我們現在就請各黨團代表表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2083.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2110.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為今天到場的委員對不起 我再把後續的因為今天到場的委員比較多所以本席這邊希望就是由各黨團輪流發言那麼原則上還是每位黨團委員代表就是三分鐘然後我們再試現場的時間再做安排然後可以進行多輪次的發言好 那麼現在看看有沒有哪位黨團代表首先先發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2112.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2134.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
沒有 現在是先針對公務人員退休撫恤法先針對第一個主題來進行討論好 那我們就先從第三條開始第三條有委員張志倫的十九人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2135.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2152.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席我建議是這樣子因為黨團都有代表來那是不是我們就廣泛先大體的發言完那如果主條有什麼意見我們再來因為剛剛已經做了規則了嘛那當然本黨團比較關心人數比較多那如果時間允許我們再盡量讓委員可以充分表達謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2152.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2174.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以我建議說是不是先大體嗎先大體討論因為其實之前有大體討論本來想說是不是直接就進入到主條那既然這樣的話我們就先進行第一輪的大體討論好了首先先請看哪一位黨團代表要先發言那就請吳思耀委員先發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2176.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2184.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
謝謝主席這一次的公教的年改我們在上個月我們透過委員會各一天的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2185.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2208.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
就將條文送出只用一天的時間2017年我們討論年改社會是用了一整年的時間來彙聚社會的共識那非常遺憾改革喊停卻只用一天的時間那也可以預期今天的黨團協商也許用一個小時或是一個上午的時間可能又是過水了我並不清楚但是總整來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2209.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2225.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這一次的年改走回頭路造成三大不公第一大不公重退休輕現職造成現職的年輕世代的公務同仁可能領不到退休金第二大不公呢是重公教來輕了勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2226.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2247.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
老農或是國保年金的這些保護那造成跨行業間的不平等被剝奪感是加劇的第三個不公就是如果年金現在有2.96兆的潛在債務負責任的政黨跟國會應當是想方設法來彌平縮缺口而不是來擴大缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2248.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2276.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
加速破產所以如果年金破產了造成用全民被迫用全民的納稅錢來買單來支付這就是預知未來這就是透支下一代這就是債留子孫所以扣合著這三大不公都會回應在不管是公務人員或是教職人員的兩個法案上因為條文基本上是一樣的在野黨的委員說我們只是停下來不是走回頭路不是鬥退路但是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2277.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2296.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
执行的如此良好又有绩效确实有效的挹注了我们退府基金而且增加它的正向投资而能够更给我们的基金的这个pool带来一个比较活水的裁员为什么好事要喊卡为什么要半途而废为什么被迫要功亏一篑 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2298.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2315.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以說這個為了我們都非常的肯定公教人員對於國家在職所提出來的服務跟貢獻但是我們更應當在制度的各個面向來強化對於現職公務人員的照顧這才是國家照顧我們的公教體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2316.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2345.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以這兩個法案的各幾個條文都回到同樣的核心改革不應當走回頭路不應當加速世代的不正義以及職業的不公平更要扣合一個核心的議題在野黨的委員提案者認為說現在如果你應該喊卡會造成我們退休的朋友們公交朋友們難以維持他們的基本生活所需在委員會的時候我已經多次的論述了不管是衛福部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2346.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2373.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
各個縣市的最低生活費最高的是每人兩萬在台北市也不管是主計總署所公布的一口之家到四口之家平均每位的所需生活的支出落在兩萬五到三萬六之間最高是一口之家平均的這個生活需求可能需要到三萬以上但是對應於現在的年改平均的公務人員每個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2374.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2393.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
平均可以領50656教育人員平均可領57973都高於現在的各個世代的現役人員他們所領有的現在的薪水你難以說他就沒有辦法去負荷他的基本生活所需所以我們再一次說 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2394.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2420.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
請在野黨委員切莫不要再很粗率的認為說他不過是提早四年破產不是提早四十年我想用這樣的態度來面對世代正義的議題是不負責任的我們也希望在野黨的委員真的不要一再的去錯置了整個公務體系我們應當優先照顧現職人員的這個政策核心所以呢我們讓年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2422.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2434.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
不破產讓世代有正義我們希望大家能夠三思後行這幾個議案這幾個條文民進黨團我們都沒有辦法接受我們要為下一代來發聲好 謝謝那我再補充介紹到場的委員有鄭天才委員莊瑞雄委員還有張雅玲委員好 那接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2450.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2469.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
國民黨委員 羅志強委員發言我每次聽到我們無時要委員講到公教的問題一直在強調什麼叫重退休輕債值我覺得要講到現在債值的公教人員不會退休一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2470.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2498.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
民進黨下來喜歡操作各種的對立啦但是說真的你這種對立的操作法你是把在職的公教人員都當成笨蛋還是傻瓜基本上所有在職的公教人員當初在選擇報考公務員或教員的時候他考量的除了在職的薪水以外就是國家可以給他什麼樣的退休保障啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2499.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2525.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
怎麼會有人跟我講說 今天比如說吳仕堯今天假如說你突然想要補補你的眼睛吃個補品 然後補你的眼睛那你跟我講說 不行啊我的兩隻腳會抗議我的眼睛被補到啊公教就是一個整體退休跟在職都要人生的一部分這什麼荒謬的理論你要拿出來你要講別的東西我覺得也有些道理可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2526.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2553.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在這邊要去做債值跟退休的對立你起碼邏輯要學得好一點吧邏輯不是要學得好一點嗎難道債值的人員不會退休在第二個我要特別強調這個問題我們討論已經非常久了非常久了今天我們並不是要回到2018年以前的所謂的年金的這個所謂版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2555.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2582.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這些年來公教人員為了所謂的民進黨標舉的所謂的年金改革我們說過了他已經付出很大的代價了也不過卑微的拜託你停砍停砍停砍不是恢復這麼卑微的需要我覺得民進黨聽不到啊就是聽不到啊第三個更重要的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2583.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2604.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
民進黨今天所有的東西 假設說很棒啊今天高考普考跟十年前二十年前一樣搶破頭啊人人爭先恐後的要報考啊 錄取率個位數啊可見這個鐵飯碗大家都覺得不但是鐵飯碗可能金飯碗銀飯碗都很棒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2607.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2634.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以你今天所有的說今天我們照顧你夠了你們公教人員不值得這麼多的照顧旁邊閃我覺得有點道理為什麼因為給你這些東西目前一直在降你的所謂的所得替代率公教人員還是報考還是滿滿的大排長龍是嗎我想請問民進黨默默良心說是嗎我們現在中華民國能夠有今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2636.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2663.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
包括基礎建設包括新竹科學園區包括民進黨拱手要送到美國去的台積電請問哪一個不是優秀的文官今天破話出來了今天優秀的文官執行國家政策帶引國家往未來的發展你需要的就是足夠的人才啊你要人才你告訴我說你不給待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2665.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2686.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你要人才你不給退休保障我直接告訴大家啦過去很多的文官放棄民間高薪的薪水他為什麼他也很優秀啊他到民間也許他的未來前程發展生涯待遇可能更好啊可是為什麼一來為國家服務的熱忱 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2687.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2711.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
二來他也覺得國家尊重他會給他足夠的除了債值的待遇之外 也給足夠的退休的保障所以他願意可是很抱歉今天我們看到我們的執政者對公教的這樣的態度我是為公教心寒最後我不知道今天民進黨委員我實在不太知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2712.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2735.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我自己至少遇到很多在職的不管是公教警校軍人他們對在野黨這一段時間為軍公教警校來捍衛他們該有的尊嚴捍衛他們該有的待遇是非常感謝的我走在路上真的很多人來感謝啊他們只靜悄悄跟我說一句話沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2737.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2764.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
尤其是在職的他沒辦法我們現在在職我們還在領政府的薪水民進黨執政我們點滴在心頭我們只是不講而已我們只是不講而已點滴在心頭要不要去看一看今天文官崩壞老師找不到人的灰犀牛已經瘋狂的衝向台灣如果沒有這台灰犀牛在前面衝民進黨講通通都對通通都對 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2766.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2780.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
但是事實就不是這樣所以今天這個案子我們說真的關於年金的問題我們已經討論無數次了所以我也希望我相信今天我看起來也不會有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2781.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2798.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以如果沒有共識的話那就交給國會的新民意來決定吧那既然民進黨這麼痛恨軍公教警消那沒辦法我們只好讓支持軍公教警消的我們的在野黨扛起責任啊以上好 謝謝因為我們剛剛有說是依照那個政黨輪流然後接下來請張委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2808.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2837.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
不要再犧牲勞苦功高的公教人員不要再製造對立了剛聽民進黨的發言老蔣覺得是難過的我先提醒一個現在不單純是公教人員的問題大家已經明顯地看得到了現在大家不考公務員不當老師不當老師優秀人才沒有進到教育體系影響不就是我們小孩跟整體的教育嗎今天教育部長在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2839.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2852.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
公教的投考的人數急速的下降影響到我們的公共政策甚至這已經是個國安的問題了現在更嚴重的民進黨一直在強調說會破產 用破產來騙人 嚇人事實上怎麼可能會有破產的問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2863.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2885.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
破產不會發生 不能發生也不可能發生因為我們的法例上面就是明定政府有撥補的責任 請大家看公務人員退休輔系基金管理條例的第八條裡面明定如果基金不足額租付的時候應該由基金檢討調整繳費的費率就是本來是12% |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2890.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2900.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
本來是12%現在已經調到了15%有調另外後面那句話叫什麼或者由政府撥補補助並由政府負最後的支付責任勞保不就是這樣嗎請問公教政府補助了嗎第二個請大家看 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2909.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2935.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七條就是我們今天要修的裡面也寫了啊由政府負最後的支付保證責任請問法律寫得明明白白為什麼一直嚇嚇人騙人說是會破產啊所以只要第一個政府依法行政依照剛剛我念的這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2937.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2964.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
要撥補包括剛剛講的匯率你都調升了你現在從12%調到15%那他稅高可以再調18%調到18那沒有調這個支付公教人員付35%政府付65%對不對你沒有依法調那你政府把錢省下來你又不撥補到第一個所以說第一個要求依法要撥補我們是一個法治社會請不要犧牲我們公教人員這是一個依法第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2965.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2982.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們就比照勞工勞工在最近這三年每一年都撥補了1300億元所以我一直要呼喊當勞動部長講撥補也是種改革每年非常積極的去爭取每年爭取那麼多的撥補結果呢我們的考試院呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2983.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3003.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們的教育部呢學一學勞動部好不好只要你們跟勞動部一樣該有的撥補一年1300億撥補而且公教還沒有那麼多只要足夠的撥補就沒有破產的這個問題更重要的我要提醒今天在野黨提出來的不是回到以前只是因為已經砍過頭了所以我們喊卡現在砍的這個幅度已經遠遠超過了當初主管機關考試所提出來的這個幅度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3012.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3029.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
過了到今年為止已經砍了三分之一就是退休公教人員因為年改到現在為止100塊錢被砍了三分之一他的退休金被砍了三分之一可以停了吧為什麼要一直犧牲他們呢明明政府依法要撥補勞工也撥補了 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3032.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3053.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
為什麼公教人員不撥補呢而且造成了後遺症那麼大所以為了世代的共榮職業的這個平等我們今天非常明確的呼籲請不要再犧牲我們的公教人員不要再犧牲我們的教育品質不要再犧牲我們的小孩不要再犧牲國安更重要的還給公教人員一個公道可以喊卡了好 接下來我們進行第二輪先請范雲委員發言好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3063.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3080.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
剛剛國民黨委員跟民眾黨委員口口聲聲不要犧牲教育的品質我們在場這邊非常多教育文化委員會的委員以我自己為例我們一直在爭取現在剛剛有委員講到說好像教師報考的不佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3080.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3084.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們一直在爭取的是現職教師增加薪資還有另外一個減輕不當的長久累積下來的不當的工作的負擔包含行政負擔等如果要問就是說質詢的次數我想我們在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3099.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3124.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
任何一位委員連這個不是教文的宗嘉斌委員我都聽到他在總質詢希望教育部長 正部長在場增加現職教師的薪水正部長也非常的支持他也有承諾在精算財政跟評估中我聽到的是很快的就希望能夠給大家一個據說這是正面的方向是同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3124.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3153.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以請不要拿好像民進黨的委員不關心教育我想這是我們在座的包含陳培宇跟吳思耀委員之前也都是在教育文化委員會中現在也常常回來為教師的權益薪水爭取誰更關心教育的品質教師的權益我想這非常的清楚只要能夠去看看大家質詢的內容就知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3154.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3169.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
剛剛民眾黨的委員說我聽到都快傻眼了沒有破產的問題我們是不是活在同一個社會裡還是大家平常都讀不同的資料還是有人根本連資料都不讀我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3170.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3185.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
泰府基金當然會用完也因為這樣馬英九前總統到現在都還看到他當年說要改後來怕流失選票不改 改所以蔡總統的勇敢的年代年改就是透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3186.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3212.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
限职者增加提拨以退新退者减少预退的方式才能把退府基金用完的年度从民国120年延伸到138年用缓降的方式回补基金确保年金永续那个是讨论了刚刚吴斯耀委员讲了一整年我们都还记得当时我还不是立委还有全国的巡回的讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3213.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3236.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
國民黨的版本只討論一天停降退休所得的替代率它造成的問題當然就是大額的財務缺口這個大額的財務缺口無法滿足龐大公教人員的月退所得需求如果靠稅收無法滿足的話事實上它就會出現一個世代正義還有社會內部正義的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3241.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3248.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
剛剛吳思瑤講的重退休輕限職就是我們所說的這個其實就是讓退福基金加速破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3250.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3273.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
加速破產是真問題如果剛剛認為不破產的是因為要靠政府的稅收來補的話我們要跟大家報告你去看一下數字各大退休基金都有缺口每年是千億的速度虧損也只有少繳多領這個原因就是誰造成的大家可以去研究歷史就是過去少繳多領的退休基金的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3274.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3293.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以未來如果我們要靠全民稅收的一成甚至兩成來補退休基金或甚至稅收不好的時候現在是剛好稅收好你覺得好像問題不大所以說不好的時候不就是要加稅嗎那如果全民加稅那最後你們爭取的是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3294.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3316.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
公教退休人員國民年金裡面有非常高的比例都是退休的家庭主婦事實上年金是少得可憐農民勞工為什麼沒有幫他爭取如果都要全面爭取的話請問你是要支持加稅還是等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3317.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3338.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以你反而你在這個時間點上你獨獨就是只為退休的公教人員爭取的話他真的是嚴重造成社會內部的不正義所以部門對立不是我們民進黨委員的我們並沒有做這樣的事情是你們在獨會這個部分那再回來講為教師爭取權益現職的教師減少不當的工作負擔是 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3344.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3367.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們這些教文委員監督教育部部長也一直在上任以來在努力的內容好 謝謝那接下來請曾天才委員發言好 主席好 各位委員還有我們各機關的長官第一個大家都喜歡引用馬英九總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3369.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3397.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
馬英九總統雖然說他確實有說要年金改革並不是要支持現在在106年開始審查所完成通過的這些他不是支持這個好 大家也提到蔡英文總統蔡英文總統確實執行了年金改革而且非常重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3399.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3424.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
邀請當時的副總統陳建仁副總統召開年金改革委員會開了20次的會議找了各機關行政院考試院各專家開會開了20次20次我要特別強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3426.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3453.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
根據這個年金改革委員會所做成的討論行政院 考試院提出了版本考試院 行政院提出了公務人員跟教職員的草案送到立法院當時立法院在第九屆 本席那時候也在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3454.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3482.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
來參加這個會議審查會當時民進黨在立法院占絕對多數根本就不聽考試院行政院也不聽在野黨的立委的意見就大砍按照誰的版本段宜康委員的版本段宜康也那麼厲害嗎當然沒有厲害很簡單就大砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3485.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3511.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
就以考試院行政院的版本再砍就是這麼簡單就這樣通過是這樣來的我們就舉例我們就以公立學校教職員退休輔系條例來看以到今年114年來說行政院考的版本當時是71.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3516.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3536.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
當初通過的大砍68.5% 差了3%以明年的話 又多了0.5% 又差了3.5%這個差距 落差是這樣來的所以這個大砍是不合理的 沒有專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3539.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3567.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
不是以20次總統府所召開的年金改革委員會不是是大砍是亂砍所以現在要停砍現在要停砍這是第一點第二點民進黨委員一直在跟勞工去比跟農民去比這不一樣大家要去回頭去看仔細看 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3568.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3595.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
无论是公务人员 教职员 警校每个月所缴的金额比例就不一样每个月缴 缴到基金劳工是6%以下 还不是强制的公教警校是强制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3597.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3623.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
農民勞工是百分之六以下而且還不是強制的你要做比較就要好好的分析做比較而不是直接就這樣亂比較包括農民也是一樣所以都有一個制度在那裡所以要從制度面去比較而不是哈朗邦的去比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3625.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3651.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以這個部分要請我們的同仁我們的立委能夠從制度面而且從整個制度當初的制度就是亂砍大砍所以我們要回到現在的停砍所以在這邊特別請大家能夠支持 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3653.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3680.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 那接下來看請張委員要不要再一次發言還是好 那這樣的話那就請第三位是莊瑞璇委員發言好 謝謝主席還有在場在場的朋友這倒也不是砍的問題剛剛這邊在講到第九屆本席也在這個地方那個時候是在比較各國的所得替代率你如果說要談制度談制度很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3682.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3710.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
談制度像張基改講的他命中講的依法行政也都很好那依法行政來講的話你們那個我聽起來都層層爛掉了為什麼因為基金裡面你說不會破產你如果繳的少出去的多怎麼不會破產你說依法行政政府到最後要不要撥補當然要啊政府當然要撥補啊可是剛調完你也念得很清楚啊就不是只有撥補這一條路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3712.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3714.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以你費率要怎麼樣去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3715.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3741.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
或者說你這個整個延後的退休給予跟這個啟資的一個年齡或者說你拉長平均的一個本分的一個計算期間調整所得替代率這個全部都算了這個都是跟政府最後撥補責任一樣都是方法都是方法所以不要再去講說不會有破產的問題只是說他這個基金裡面快用完了之後你怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3743.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3768.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那你如果知道你們抓出從中間抓出一點就是政府這個只有政府有負擔起這個責任的話會回到曾天才委員剛才提到的公教人員跟農民跟其他人是不一樣的題目也不同那甚至於比例也不同是啊如果要這樣講的話講到最後就是誰有考試誰沒有考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3770.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3773.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
如果基金真的有那麼多用不完的話我認為不是只有停的問題用不完嘛應該去把它增加不是只有18%要30%要50%用不完嘛可是呢你如果講說因為提撥的比例不同各個行業比有所不同的話那你就必須要去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3792.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3809.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你要去增加也可以但是增加到了是不是有相對的去讓不同類別的人他必須要負擔更重的一個義務我們為什麼要去講說你今天這樣150萬的人領國民年金的人平均是3996要讓退休的人領得很爽好不好很好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3815.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3835.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
你去捍衛他的權利我也知道捍衛他們的權利那看到你會謝謝會很開心啊但我們不是要砍誰我們是說這個制度這個年金你這樣繼續下去你會破產的時候你有什麼樣的一個解方我看在黨的朋友你也沒有去把整個制度弄清楚啊你如果從2012年以後的那個新基金的現在沒有這個問題啊我們現在在解決的是什麼你80年以前那個基金我們現在解決的是這個不是新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3845.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3855.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那變成112年前面的這個部分五十幾歲的 六十幾歲還沒退休的就變成說在職者確實是養退休者會啊 會產生這樣的一個狀況我們在解決的是這一塊不是新的112年以後的那又是新的一個水庫所以我一直這樣想就是說選擇代入民間或者選擇當文官那都是一個選擇你說要講貢獻文官當然有貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3874.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3900.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
各行各業的人全部都有貢獻啊我們老伯的政產,我們老母的政產捨得這麼多年,他們對這個國家、對這個社會也都有貢獻啊怎麼會沒有貢獻那所以我就認為說大家既然要談制度的話那大家就來講清楚啦也就是說其實你說講前朝小英總統改革就改革前朝嘛前朝也不只有改革你國民黨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3901.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3905.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
前朝是在講說過去的政府啊 民進黨阿扁政府也執政了8年啊我們改革的是針對這個制度啊 倒不是說改革國民黨怎麼樣怎麼樣 倒也不是是說這個基金快破產了 不管前面是經過幾個朝代沒有去做好的 各個政府都認為說到最後會破產那你怎麼辦 所以你去回顧當年 你說工人與你真正退休制度不足的年代是在哪裡 是2019年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3928.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3937.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那是因為已經看到說他已經基金不足了所以要去做一個改革啊你說那當初在想說基金會用完是什麼時候2031年我們現在改革就是說都沒事了嗎也不會就變成延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3942.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3949.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
只是延後而已 它變成到2049年那教育人員的部分 當初是想說不夠啊2018年 基金用完是2029年 改革後以後要變到2045年 只是讓它去延後而已這也要好好知道 要好好在後面經濟還會好政府才有錢去撥補那也不是只有到了後面的基金也不是只有政府撥補的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3967.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3988.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
也是第一個政府要負撥補的責任但這個過程裡面你這個所得替代率是不是太高了或者說你這個費率要不要去做一個調整了這些都是方法之一那張季蓋文你又提到說就是一行而已就是政府撥補 簡單 政府撥補如果政府去框一個基金說這跟全部人都沒關係這是公務人員去賺來的我都沒有意見 把它調好管也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3994.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3998.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
人家他自己的錢 50% 60%都給你捏得好快但問題就是說我們常常會比較尤其正天才委員會去比較會比較說那沒工勞工為6%而已還沒有強制工人員更高其他人沒有 是但是其他人沒有的時候他也會繳稅金他就留到要破產這個部分來所以要整體看待整個制度我不搞對立我不搞對立我們就談這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4023.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4030.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我知道你們的想法,就說本地少一點,現在這樣,所得體量降低以後,過年沒辦法像以前這樣,好一點的生活。大家都想過很爽的舒服的生活,我也期待每一個人都可以過得很爽。但是我們現在講的不是誰爽不爽,要講誰爽不爽的話,真的會有相對剝奪感的問題嘛。因為其他人就算他沒有在公務體系,他還是國民的一份子嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4049.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4063.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那這些錢 政府的錢就是大家的錢嘛大家都有貢獻的嘛所以呢 不要再去談要講 台灣民眾人要講的依法行政那依法行政不是只有政府撥補最後一條路是還有調整所得對待利率還有整個費率的問題還有啟資年金的一個調整我相信啦 這個到最後會沒有結論啦但是呢 大家講的喔大家話要講清楚啦不要到在超越協商的還是講那些承參爛掉我是覺得就比較沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4079.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4102.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
可能會沒有結論我也很清楚但是大家要談就大家很火氣就不用那麼高政治性語言我純粹從整個制度上從剛剛各位所提到的政府的該作為是些什麼法律的解釋你去把大法官會議解釋再拿出來看一看嘛那是很清楚的嘛好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4104.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4110.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
使用啊 比較理性的啦我覺得使用啊 很好啊回到 沒有錯啦回到制度裡面先等一下好不好發現妳剛本來要我講我說先讓給他們講剛輪流的這樣不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4116.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4134.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是因為我們剛剛是用那個各黨團輪流的方式然後呢所以接下來應該是先請在國民黨林慶琴委員要不要發言如果說您不發言的話您不發言就請張綺凱委員那就讓給張綺凱委員發言好不好因為我們是用採對這黨團輪流的方式對其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4145.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4148.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
就讓張祺凱講了好不好謝謝張祺凱委員講謝謝張祺凱委員講雖然你現在回到制度面跟依法行政才能夠解決問題這樣要比較兩個一個就是職業別要平等你剛才講的所有的對公教的討論拿來勞工這邊勞工 民進黨怎麼說不會破產嘛 對不對撥補嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4170.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4196.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
蛤 有啊 你們的勞動部長在這邊啊就講不會破產啊 為什麼不會破產因為依法 依法上面政府交付最後的責任嘛沒有 先做一個平等 職業平等只要用 現在公教要求的不多公教要求就是跟勞工一樣嘛該撥補 現在行政院也確實做了撥補每年一千三百億 好 OK這兩個 一個是職業的平等 這是一個第二個 水母老公要對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4198.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4223.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不破產有三個事情要做嘛法律上有三個嘛調高費率嘛 對不對一個給他撥補 一個給他挹注嘛那調高費率公教有調啊他的規定就是 任期就是12%到18%啊現在已經從12調到15了嘛對不對 有調啊我現在強調的是調高之後公教人臉負擔是多少 35耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4224.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4243.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
政府負擔的是65%你沒有把它調到足夠那政府省下很多錢政府是不是也要負責任所以它撥補是應該更多它沒有調 它沒有調到最高它現在調到15%政府是裡面要負擔最重的人好 那民進黨做了什麼事情民進黨竟然誤會說已經撥補了另外一個叫挹注他說有啊不是只有勞工有撥補一年1300億上次講說什麼公教已經撥補了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4253.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4274.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
2700多億結果發現那個不是撥補那個叫挹注那是砍了人家年金改革之後的救命錢養老錢砍了2700多億這個不能誤導這個一定要講清楚所以有三個管道現在問題出在什麼地方一個撥補就是費率提高的不夠高嘛對不對 這是一個嘛第二個挹注砍的是人家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4276.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4292.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
養老金救命錢砍得夠多了我剛剛已經跟他講砍了三分之一還不夠多嗎還要繼續再犧牲嗎更何況職業平等勞工本來要改革後來我們目前贊成說先不改用撥補的方式那就平等所以不要再砍了藝術這一塊就是不要再砍了可是你撥補這一塊你是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4294.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4309.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
你最近這兩年 有一年60幾 一年100多億那個都是對薪資的喔 就是一毛錢都沒有所以我們很理性對不對所以很理性 你3塊去看所以我才講 第一個基於職業的這個平等請依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4310.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4327.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
依照照顧勞保跟勞工那一塊好不好該撥補的就要撥補然後第二個真的是砍的真的是太多了我建議再強調江心比心砍的三分之一還不夠多嗎而且考試院是主管機關他當初砍的幅度沒有像現在這麼多因為段怡康帶領之下民進黨一黨獨大 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4328.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4345.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
你們砍得太多了 砍到現在砍到今年 已經砍太多了 可以喊卡了不要再犧牲公教 另外我提一個很重要的點不要有對立的這個問題家裡面 誰的家裡面我們台灣那麼多的家庭裡面有勞工當然也有軍公教啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4346.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4372.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
第二更重要的現在我們在談的不是只有對退休的公教人員限職的不就以後也是要退休嗎所以我們是一個共融的社會我們在談的是一個世代共融而且沒有說要回到以前全部都要恢復只是砍帶頭的請喊卡為了所有台灣的教育台灣公務人員的品質這已經是國安的問題了而且不要叫我們的公教人員再犧牲了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4375.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4398.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好 那我們其實剛剛現在已經進行了三輪的各黨團的這輪流發言那當然我知道還有幾個委員沒有發言所以呢在這邊是不是可以這個我的建議是說是因為像剛郭玉琴委員張雅玲委員已經都舉手蠻久了所以請兩位就先發言發言完之後呢我們就直接進入到逐條因為逐條的時候我們還有時間可以發言好嗎 好不好好 那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4401.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4421.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因為其實今天這樣子討論下去的話也不會有共識那我們已經進行了其實就讓我們大體大家好好的說清楚因為說實話你進到主條這些細節不管是失實日期或是所得替代率的條件我覺得也不會有共識因為大家剛剛的發言都已經針對我們剛剛講的議題我這邊剛剛已經也給大家就是進行了三輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4421.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4435.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
主席這不是叫做也給大家而是真的可以好好討論否則今天送出去之後到時候到院長協商也就是過水然後也沒有時間然後最後還不就是暴力表決我不認為我們是在過水我們從這個委員會的會議的安排然後到專題報告審查公聽會至於到今天的政黨協商我都盡量的給大家都有充足的時間可以發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4445.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4472.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那麼因為待會還進到主條的時候還可以再來討論所以我想大體討論的部分呢就按照我剛剛的這個建議就做決定就是說等郭育琴委員張雅玲委員兩位發言完之後呢我們就直接進入到主條討論好有有有有你們剛剛已經有說過了沒有沒有主席我跟鍾嘉斌跟市長都還沒有針對大體的部分發言討論喔謝謝廣泛的部分我們都還沒有發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4473.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4501.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好的那這樣的話那就是讓鍾嘉斌委員跟陳培宇委員發言完之後然後我知道就是說按照我們剛剛的順序就是郭育晴委員張雅玲委員然後鍾嘉斌委員陳培宇委員那林慶琪委員要等到主條再發言好嗎還是你要等到大體好那等到進入主條再發言那就麻煩那就先請郭育晴委員先發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4502.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4527.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好 謝謝主席所有委員大家好我想這個我在10月20號跟11月6號的時候其實在聯席的會議裡面其實就講得很清楚了那替代率逐年下降其實不是政治決定而是應該是精算專業精算算過之後它是基金能夠存活下去最重要的一條安全線但是現在我們看到這條安全線要被剪斷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4530.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4550.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
其實在台灣各個職類的退休制度的潛藏的債務已經高達了有20兆這20兆其實就是大家的歷史工業不是只有我們這一代可能還要連我們的下一代基金能不能夠活得下去如果沒有年改這個退服基金在120年可能就會歸零 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4551.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4577.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
但現在我想這個在野黨的委員要做什麼你們要把這條安全線給剪斷那把替代率呢直接鎖死在高點不降這聽起來好像非常照顧所謂的退休的公教對不對但真正的結果是什麼第一我剛剛講基金會提前破產上一次我也講過這個停侃年金會讓公務人員的退府基金估計提前到2041年就會破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4579.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4606.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
另外在教育人員的退府基金會提前到2038年破產這不像剛剛這個張建凱委員說的這個不會破產因為政府我們會撥補但政府撥補到底錢從哪裡來錢是風吹來的嗎還是地上可以撿來的政府撥補的就是要從人民的納稅錢裡面要多繳我用上次我已經講過了這次我要再講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4606.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4634.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們用現在繳稅的人口697萬人來算這個多出來 詮訊部算過 精算過後未來20年要多出4460億它不會是天上掉下來的這4460億如果用我剛剛說的繳稅人口數來算每一個人就是要多繳6萬3這6萬3我就問我上次問的更白一點我今天再用白一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4635.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4647.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
白話文來講你願不願意拿你多出來的繳稅的稅金去補別人的退休金你願不願意看著你自己的孩子去養別人破掉的基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4648.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4673.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
如果說我們在講我們沒有主張要少給而是我們要讓制度能夠長久我們要領得久我們希望年改不要走回頭路其實像主席我們之前在這個大阪我也看到您兒子在東京念書在日本念書我記得在去年的年底的時候你在臉書還PO他拿了個Team Taiwan |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4674.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4681.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
到這個球場外面拿著國旗我覺得這是我們的下一代優秀的下一代但問題是我們現在為什麼我們憑什麼我們為什麼可以把這樣子的問題丟給下一代 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4688.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4715.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
不要全民補不要年輕人來補不要下一代來補真的語重心長的講坐下來好好討論這些都是精算過後的數字這個都是有數字用科學的方式去算出來我們即將可能面對的世代的工業的問題我相信大家坐在這邊其實都希望理性討論啦不要有任何的情緒性啦再強調一次政府撥補是什麼就是全民要負責買單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4716.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4718.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
就這麼簡單的一句話而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4721.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4745.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
好 接下來請張雅玲委員發言好 我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他在跑學校的活動的時候有很多的老師感謝他但是我也要想補充一個資訊就是我自己在跑學校的運動會的時候也有很多現任的老師他們很擔心年金改革因為他也會擔心未來他退休的時候領不到所以我想在基於照顧所有老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4747.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4762.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我想我們這一點是有共識的所以我想不同的意見都應該被呈現為什麼這些老師會擔心呢因為如果我們現在停止年改的時候根據統計我們的公務人員在134年就會用完教育人員在130年就會用完 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4773.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4802.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以影響的年紀呢就是會提供到會影響到就是現齡69歲公務人員然後教育人員是66歲喔也就是說現在的老師其實都是會受到影響的那我想我們就應該務實的來講除了我們教育文化委員會許多委員都一直在爭取我們現任老師的薪資還有我們在行政減量上面積極的來去協助之外我想我們也必須務實的去面對說這個可能會破產的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4805.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4824.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那我想還是回到剛剛大家一直不停的在講的一個點就是說不管是哪一任總統啦當時的精算報告都已經估計了如果不推動年改都會用盡我想這也都是今天朝野的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4826.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4845.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那也因為呢蔡總統開始蔡前總統開始做了一些年改所以我們才把這個公教基金的用慶年度至少往後延那同時呢剛剛這個張祺凱委員也一直不停的在講說啊這個政署本來就應該負責嘛但是我想退福基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4845.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4860.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
的第二條其實也有明白的說 催俯基金費用需要按本奉加一倍12%到18%的提撥費率按月由政府剝繳65%公務人員繳付35%共同負擔財務責任再加上第八條其實也有說實際提撥的費率應應定期財務精算結果來去釐定調整所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4872.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4888.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
大家都應該要按照第七條和第八條提撥基金費用之後基金再有不足才回到由政府負最後的支付保證責任而不是一開始就有財務缺口就要政府全權來負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4890.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4910.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我想大法官782號解釋也都有清楚的說明還是政府可以有採取其他的因應措施所以我要講的是說我們現在公教人員其實他的所得替代率是66%已經高於OECD國家的50% |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4912.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4927.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以如果我們真的要去照顧到所有的公教人員我們都應該要一起來支持這樣子的年感我們應該要從制度上面如何能夠保障所有的人來去努力而不是只是說可能是做偏袒的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4929.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4950.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
一個規劃這樣子那同時呢我也要再強調一次如果我們所有東西都交給丟給政府我們不實質的去面對那事實上就是我們的孩子我們的下一代要去彌補這些所有的缺口也就是我們所有的納稅人辛辛苦苦賺的錢要一起來填補這個大洞要一起來買單我覺得這是對於我們所有的納稅人都不合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4957.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4981.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
因為所有人都是非常努力的工作非常認真的度過每一天我們身為立法委員應該要去好好的務實的去盤點各種可能的問題然後一起來共商解決之道才是好 謝謝接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言好 謝謝主席今天在此的立法委員包括主席在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4982.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4997.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我看看有參與當年2016年啟動的年金改革就是思堯委員跟我還有瑞雄還有鄭天才委員我們這幾位呢大概都有參與到2016年的年金改革時間過了9年 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5000.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5021.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然而到目前為止從剛剛包括我們張旗開委員的發言我們都覺得真的不要說社會對於年金改革本身的本質的了解甚至連委員當中也有些誤解首先我還是要回應一下張旗開委員今天我們審的今天要來協商的是公務人員退休之前撫恤法 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5022.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5045.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
这个公务人员退休支薪辅助法的定位跟刚刚您口口声声一直在提的你把两个条例混为一谈一个叫做劳工退休金条例简称劳退一个是劳工保险条例简称劳保劳退跟劳保就像我这里的手续牌一样 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5046.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5067.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
一个呢保险年金是劳保年金是劳工保险条例一个职业年金讲的是退休是劳工退休金条例简称劳退那么对应到我们现在讨论的公务人员他基本上呢他是对应的是公教人员保险法 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5068.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5092.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
公教人員保險法談的是保險但是今天我們協商的退休之前撫恤它是一個職業年金的概念就好比是勞工退休金條例的概念剛剛不斷的張委員錯誤援引的目前勞退基金本身就勞動部部長來說它的目前的情況是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
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因为劳退是由雇主跟员工他来提拨构成的个人账户所构成但是目前劳工保险或者说我们今天没有讨论的公教人员保险保险基本上是由政府主办的社会保险既然是政府主办的社会保险当然政府会负最终的责任 |
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这是待无疑问所以不要把错误的劳保条例是作为一种社会保险跟公保公教人员保险一样是一种社会保险的性质政府负有最后负担财务责任混为一谈跟职业年金的所谓的公教人员退休抚恤把它混为一起退休抚恤或者是劳工的退休 |
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都是一樣由從業人員在職期間他依著或者自己提撥或者雇主提撥所構成的一個預先儲存儲蓄的一個以後退休分月給付的一個概念所以本質上是自提自領自提自領勞退也是自提自領 |
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那當然這裡的字題包括僱主所提就像我們說的公退也是一樣也包括了政府的提撥所以我這裡還要提醒一下剛剛錯誤援引的勞保條例當中的最終財務責任不能對應到今天的公教退府 |
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那至於說公教人員保險的確有這樣子請張委員好好看一下他在第5條裡面明顯的提供本保險之財務責任屬於民國88年以前的養老給付由財政部審核撥補屬於民國88年5月31日以後的虧損 |
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應調整費率挹注看到沒有連一個政府主辦的公務人員保險法當中他也很清楚地把政府的責任寫得很清楚分成兩段前面的叫做財務責任要由審核撥補財政部審核撥補後面的虧損要由調整費率來挹注 |
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調撥補跟預註的法律性質在這裡做的區分如果還不是很清楚的話我再舉個例子可以看到公務人員保險法當中我們來看一看第20條 |
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二十條這裡寫的說 第十七條規定的每個月可領養老年金當中由承保機關依本法審定後通知負擔財務責任之最後服務機關 學校按月資給保險人 |
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這裡面的所謂的最後通知財務分擔財務責任的最後服務機構再講一次負擔財務責任的最後服務機關機構指的是什麼如果老師你從哪個學校退休是那個學校要負擔最後的財務責任 |
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所以對於公務人員也好教育人員也好他的退休在退府的部分他的財務的責任他的財務責任在哪裡在保險法當中的保險的部分是由最後退休的 |
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機關 學校他所領的每個月的養老給付在保險當中的養老給付才會有一個機關或學校去負擔但是如果我們現在談的公教的退休之前撫恤 |
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簡稱公教退伏這個制度來講完全要資金 基金自己去承擔所以剛剛有幾位委員提到說我都說市長委員他現在不在了他在反駁烏斯加委員說什麼我們都是注重什麼在職者忽略了退休者其實因為退休者已經退休的人領太多在職的人 |
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補進去的被領走了現在債值者以後退休的就沒得領了所以這不是世代的矛盾這是世代共有的一個資產如果由前面的人揮霍掉了後面的人就就沒得水喝了就這麼簡單這不是什麼世代矛盾現在的退休撫恤的錢退休的人他領的退休撫恤的錢都是包括他當年債值的時候所提領的 |
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以及現在在職的人所撥進去的如果被這些退休人領掉了現在在職的人他補職再多以後領不到 情何以堪所以千萬不要把撥補跟挹注混為一談不要把社會保險的政府責任跟任何的不管職種的勞工的公務人員的教師的退休輔續這樣的職業年金混為一談社會保險的最終責任由政府承擔 |
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至於各職業年金的退休撫恤由各退休撫恤的基金去共同面對以上釐清不要再混為一談年金改革推動這麼久過去不能參加現在來大放厥詞讓人家非常遺憾 |
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好 謝謝那接下來請陳佩瑜委員發言好 謝謝主席其實剛剛幹事長的發言我們在上一次的時候就不斷提醒在野黨委員不要把保險跟年金的概念搞錯但是很可惜我們今天聽到你們的發言依然繼續混淆視聽接下來我要問 |
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今天在內黨委員都說不是要砍回到2018年以前啦我們沒有要恢復到那個樣子那難道這樣的說法就有正當性嗎當年不管是馬英九前總統或是蔡英文前總統提出要改革都是因為年金這件事情是大家共同要面對的只是有人敢做而有人不敢做 |
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至於誰做的是對的 誰做的是好的本來就是可以討論所以不敢做的總統現在在野黨委員卻要把這個開倒車開回去真的非常荒謬所以我要再次強調並不是說不要回到2018年以前就有所謂的正當性所有的世代正義都必須要一起顧及另外我要說你們一再的說叫政府依法行政 依法行政撥補的部分 |
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就已經講錯了那我就要問那立法委員修法難道沒有相關依法修法的概念嗎看起來是沒有的我們在過去這一年多以來看到非常多在野黨委員的修法不管是這一次的年金或者是之前的國會擴權都已經有非常多違憲的做法但很可惜在野黨委員要繼續一直衝撞 |
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非常的荒謬再來我要補充剛剛幹事長所說的關於提撥的部分我們來看一下我手上這張提撥的試算表如果按照財務預估本來不管是公務人員或者是教育人員他們的提撥都應該遠遠超過他們現在只有提撥到15% |
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如果按照市算其实是应该至少要来到40%到50%这样才有可能不破产而且必须要符合所谓的刚刚钟嘉斌应该是这样所说的必须要从年金的概念来看但是现在提拨就只有15%所以之所以会出现财务的破口就是因为长期以来都提拨不足所以请不要再去混淆所谓提拨或者是保险跟年金的概念再来我要讲 |
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目前所有年金改革所做的努力有哪些我不知道在黨委員在做修法的時候有沒有看清楚第一個我們把所得替代率從75%降到60%而這是大家共同努力的結果接下來我們把提撥的費率上限增到18%而到目前為止只有到15%還有我們採取軍奉為奉額等這也是大家共同努力然後最後我要說節省的經費全數挹注給基金 |
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我知道大家認為所謂節省的經費就是所謂的被砍但是我要再次強調在年金改革的路上這是大家共同承擔一起努力的結果所以如果把節省經費全數挹注給基金就惡意的指控這就是所謂的砍砍砍那我認為大家就忽略了所謂大家一起努力的結果這件事情所以我們最後看到的是政府跟在職者 |
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增加提撥我要再一次強調政府也一起努力然後呢已退者跟新退者減少閱領所以我們才可以看到你們所謂在一黨委員現在所謂的財務破口可以往後延但你們現在卻要停止這個過去這幾年大家改革努力努力得來的成果你們要在這裡喊煞車我認為這是一個倒退這不只是煞車所以我想剛剛所有本黨的委員已經講得非常的清楚 |
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在這一次的修法裡面我們看見是世代不公職業之間的不公而這個問題更可怕的是你們要把保險跟年金的部分混在一起談抱歉 退休的部分跟年金混在一起談更是荒謬以上 謝謝主席好 那麼我們想現在大體討論大家都都發言完一輪了那我們就進行到主條那麼首先先進行到第三條 |
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看大家有沒有意見因為這個部分的話在上次已經有討論過了好 那我們就還是依照那個黨團的代表輪流的方式來發言那就先請伍思堯委員不是 等一下主席聲音一下我們是針對第三條嗎現在進入到第三條的討論了 |
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好 所以先請吳思耀委員這個為什麼黨團協商在逐條討論還要依黨團我們這麼多人就要等每個黨團我們都在等著同樣的黨團同樣的委員在那邊發言這是不是建議主席從來沒有什麼逐條討論還在用黨團的這個跟韓國瑜院長主持的那個黨團的議事安排是不一樣的協商好 那這個第三條張志倫委員我們在審條文的時候就已經講了 |
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不應該修也修錯地方好就簡單不應該修也修錯地方如果要修的話也修錯地方那我要回應一下就是說這個停侃年金就是讓改革公會一潰就是停在一半那要修的要喊卡的委員從頭到尾沒有去解釋一件事情那你們要拿哪裡的財源來補 |
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我們財政紀律法也好預算法規範也好你要增加政府的支出那你就是要清楚來負責任告訴社會好你現在要停砍年金那麼財源在哪裡三種方式啊第一種你們凡事就是丟給國家國家補國家補 |
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好像國家無論如何國家都要買單那麼你們是要犧牲了哪些社福要犧牲哪些教育要犧牲國防嗎所以國家買單也要聽聽國家政府的聲音啊到現在報告主席我們坐在這裡的考試院我們教育部行政院長官沒有人有機會發言 |
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5809.084 |
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如果你是要國家來撥補國家已經告訴你預算之間買醋的錢不能拿來買醬油這句話最近很紅那你也不聽聽我們行政部門的意見考試院的意見他們就是不能夠拿全民的錢拿所有國家的預算來補這個公教的退服因為會排擠的預算是全民來買單如同郭玉璇委員說的萬老師說的每個國人要自掏腰包6.4萬 |
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5816.146 |
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5827.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
來補這個公教的即將破產的年金合理嗎公平嗎所以裁員之一你們講的很簡單政府撥補那你要犧牲哪一筆預算 |
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5828.038 |
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5846.744 |
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你要 你就勇敢告訴人民好 國人每個人掏腰包6.4萬來補人民同不同意第二個裁員好 你就大幅的去增加調高這個費率那你們如果要停凱你們就告訴公務員啊我們因為要通過國民黨跟民眾黨的版本所以我們的費率要調高到多少 |
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5848.171 |
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5874.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
公教人員同意嗎你們負責任的提嘛而不是你現在就是要得這些好處然後誰來買單你不願意負責那要嘛我提供你們一個建設性的建議啊昨天你們進負二讀啊你們要讓救國團不當黨產就可以討回去啊好啊救國團有61筆土地啊有16億的現金啊你們要把黨產再拿回去黨產自己花 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5875.569 |
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5901.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那麼好啊那人民來公決要不要用國民黨黨產來補這個洞所以負責任的裁員你要喊卡那你負責任講你裁員在哪裡是什麼讓人民來公斷因為要付出的代價是全民在扛那人民願不願意或是公教要調高保費在扛公教現職同仁願不願意你們負責任的提解方好我們很理性的再說 |
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5903.069 |
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5916.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
年改是民生議題不是政黨對立也不是犧牲了誰也不是要去霸凌誰更不是要去虧待誰世界各國都在做年改 |
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5938.33 |
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因為環境在變因為少子化高齡化每一個國家都在面對年金改革的問題OECD國家的所得替代率平均值是50.7%台灣如果以現在2024年最新的精算我們的實值是77.8%高於OECD國家28% |
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5943.206 |
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5961.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以世界各國都在面對這個嚴肅的課題而他們改的幅度都比台灣更大走得更快甚至在檢討年改是越來越緊縮簡單講改得越來越嚴沒有像台灣要走回頭路改到一半停下來的 |
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5962.465 |
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5985.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
難道這些世界各國在面對的新時代的挑戰他們都在虧待退休人員嗎他們都在犧牲退休人員嗎世界各國的朝野各黨大家都是同心協力來面對這個時代險峻的課題那為什麼在台灣就一再的把它政治化好像要犧牲誰 |
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5986.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5991.101 |
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我們在做的是全民都獲益的事情因為我們真的不能讓全民的納稅錢拿來補這個特定人士的退休金最後張綺凱委員在這裡我其實覺得我真的想送一張這個給您 |
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6003.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6015.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
因為我們跟您講了N次您永遠這個保險金退休金搞不清楚我今天有多印幾張我真的是為您準備來的我等一下可以送給您不要傻傻分不清 |
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6018.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6047.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我真的有硬心的等一下再提供給您然後呢也要請您喔因為今天黃國昌主席沒有來喔當初說砍得不夠砍得不夠多砍得不夠快的人是黃國昌委員剛剛鄭天才委員講錯了段宜康委員沒有要去調多少%段宜康委員是從15年到10年60的這個數字是當時民進黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6049.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6073.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
當時總統府的版本行政院的版本都是60所以說我們要還原歷史剛剛鄭天才委員坐在我對面他居然可以當著我的面跟我說吳思耀你2016根本沒有在這裡當立委啊我2016我自己有沒有當立委我當然知道我是2016年當選立委我就參與了年改的那個事情我走在路上還要被李來希們拖出去打欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6074.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6091.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
發生在我自己身上的事情吳思堯幾年當立委都可以google一下為什麼政天才委員在說吳思堯你根本沒有參與年改你沒有資格在那邊講那對不起那如果說當年沒有參與年改的人不能參與這個議題的討論那在場多少人不能參與不是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6093.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6112.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我是當年有在所以我請大家要能夠因為剛剛我講到一半那個志強委員回來了我也準備了一張給你我也準備了一張給你好我馬上要結束了因為剛剛好最後我也準備了這張送給羅志強委員您一再說鐵飯碗不再是鐵飯碗 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6116.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6133.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
如果我們現在改下去鐵飯碗就成破飯碗這是更慘那麼這一張您一直說民進黨讓公教人員因為年改所以沒有人來報考公務員我這從上次你講這個謬論我一直在準備這張圖卡我今天要送給你當禮物 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6134.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6136.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
公教不再熱門誰知過馬英九執政的時候才是報考大衰退年改是2017上路年改以後每年1.6萬元的報告下降馬英九的時期每年銳減3萬多的從高峰到低峰 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6159.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6171.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好 那麼我們接下來不是 因為我覺得我的提醒跟我的決定五委員都沒有尊重我想我要維持整個的會場 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6174.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6197.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
規則會場的秩序剛剛已經給五委員有超過六分鐘累計已經十分鐘的發言那麼我想今天要維持我們這個會場的秩序以及會場議場的進度那接下來的話看看是不是輪到國民黨林建琦委員這裡要發言嗎那就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6203.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6230.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好 那接下來我們就請民眾黨委員發言好 請張綺凱馬總統上任時候是30萬高峰馬總統創到50萬金融風暴 連題目都不會看人家送給看到沒有 馬英九的時候好 請大家先 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6235.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6248.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我希望我們的會議能夠繼續進行請大家先不要在這裡再繼續爭吵好那我們這樣我們就先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6254.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6276.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好 算給你 你就好好看你就好好看我用心做給你看不是讓你隨便解讀的不是讓你 因為我會被消音我是好用你的因為江胡思堯的音孟小林不會像是志強的音請志強委員好好讀完再說志強連數字都看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6284.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6284.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6423.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6442.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
不敢看啦張欣凱連看都不敢看年紀跟退休金都搞不清楚每次都故意講錯 造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6445.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6454.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
好 羅志強你好好看國際金融風暴青年失業率到高點的時候造成大家都去報考公務員那個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6561.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6584.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們的用心這樣子來糟蹋了羅志強委員等你了換你了好來我們來等謝謝我們吳委員拿出自己打臉的數字我也是佩服他我來打臉羅志強的數字打臉羅志強的數字有自信的人不用插嘴啦你看喔 蔡英文在一人一句嘛你不要急問急答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6590.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6608.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
幾問幾答 你每次我講話你就講話在吵我你剛剛講話我又沒講你有自信一點嗎 我很有自信我自信到都替你做功課了 替你做功課了吳思瑤乖 麥克風關掉了我乖不乖不用理你你就講嘛 你就講嘛不要講不出來 你講 我等你講謝謝吳思瑤 麥克風關掉來來來 各位吳思瑤自己都講 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6616.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6639.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
在馬英九上任2008年之前對不對那個時候的公務員的報考人數大概是30到40萬因為金融風暴嘛 金融風暴造成所謂的公務人員就變得是很強少嘛關掉關掉 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6642.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6657.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以出現了高峰到53萬人嘛對不對53萬人但是後來金融風暴過後之後台灣的經濟恢復常態嘛所以公務人員當你比較於外面的工作現在回到30萬的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6658.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6676.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不對啊你看斜率下降的快你也不看斜率上升的快啊奇怪了上升的快是因為馬英九之後沒有上升就往下就往下馬英九那個是在金融海嘯的時候現在我們繼續開會斜率上升的很快上升這塊是沉水貶值證奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6677.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6688.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
奇怪了剛剛叫我講也是你們我講話一直是你們對我今天理性的澄清這麼沒有信心嗎下降的是馬英九上升的是陳水扁馬英九那時候遇到金融風暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6697.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6704.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好 請各位委員回到我們會議秩序 不好意思 因為我現在已經按了消音因為我想我們就繼續會議的這個進程沒有 我全部 因為我們已經開始要繼續開會繼續開會 五分鐘休息時間已經到了 所以我們現在繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6716.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6720.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為剛剛看到大家的發言可以很清楚的知道今天的討論不會有共識從剛大體討論到一開始進入到第三條的時候的情況就是如此所以本日協商的過程公開發言的內容都已經錄音錄影並且列入記錄因為仍然無法取得共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6742.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6757.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以我們在基於公教法案要一致的處理因此今天本日協商了兩個主題後續就依照立法院職權行使法第12章相關規定的處理那麼今天我們會議就到這邊結束謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6763.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6767.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
主席 讓他們那個表達立場的意外面講表達也好 打講話也好 打講話也好 打講話也好 打講話也好 打講話也好 打講話也好 打講話也好 |